Subject: Steve's Journey; New White Pages Entry From: JHB To: All Date Posted: Mon, Mar 04, 2002 at 09:12:03 (EST) Email Address: epowebmaster@yahoo.co.uk Message: Steve Quint's journey entry now on line, as is David Deal's White Pages entry. Steve, I'm looking forward to the rest of your story! John.

Subject: Conversation with the Master From: The gardener-at the rez To: All Date Posted: Sun, Mar 03, 2002 at 10:47:12 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The following conversation was heard between the master and a high level PAM, who also does some gardening at the rez.... PAM: Maharaji,I'm just not going to be able to do that work around the yard today. I'm sore all over, I feel like a have a slight fever, throats a little sore, maybe I'm coming down with something...I just don't feel right, you know? M:Hey that's no excuse! Why, when I'm feeling that way, I just tell my wife I need a whole lot of sex, and it goes away, just like that! PAM: Pranam, Maharaji. Two hours later the PAM calls up Maharaji and tells him he is busy working hard in the garden now and feeling much better. Maharaji says great. 'Yeah, everythings feeling fine. Thanks. And by the way,Maharaji, that's a really great water bed you've got in the bedroom.'

Subject: 'Easier Than I Thought' From: Victor (Bob) To: All Date Posted: Sun, Mar 03, 2002 at 10:19:30 (EST) Email Address: marcelproust@earthlink.net Message: I wanted to share with you all this kinda country lyric that popped out of me this morning as I was considering how not difficult it was to walk away. 'Easier Than I Thought' WHEN I RIPPED APART YOUR PICTURE I FELT GUILTY AT FIRST THEN I RIPPED APART THE ONES YOU TOOK 'O ME I JOGGED AROUND THE RESERVOIR 'N STOPPED TO PET A DOG TRAIPSED HOME 'N HAD A COZY CUP 'O PEPPERMINT TEA IT'S EASIER THAN I THOUGHT IT WOULD EVER BE 'BEIN FREE 'O YOU WHAT DID I SEE IN YOU? CHALK IT UP TO A COUPLE 'O COLORFUL YEARS HERE'S TO 'LAUGHIN THROUGH MY TEARS IT'S EASIER THAN I THOUGHT IT WOULD EVER BE THEN I WENT 'N DID SOME 'THINKIN WHAT WAS THAT ALL ABOUT? I WAS CERTAIN FROM THE GET-GO YOU WERE 'IT' WE FIT SO WELL TOGETHER YOU'D HAVE THOUGHT US TWO WERE ONE BUT THIS HALF SAYS WHEN TIME IS UP YOU UP 'N YOU 'GIT' IT'S EASIER THAN I THOUGHT IT WOULD EVER BE 'BEIN FREE 'O YOU WHAT DID I SEE IN YOU? CHALK IT UP TO A COUPLE 'O COLORFUL YEARS HERE'S TO 'LAUGHIN THROUGH MY TEARS IT'S EASIER THAN I THOUGHT IT WOULD EVER BE I THOUGHT IT NEVER WOULD END GOES TO SHOW WHAT A LOVESICK HEART CAN HEAR 'LISTIN TO WHISPERS IN MY EAR ALL THE WHILE MY HEAD IS IN MY REAR THANK THE LORD OR EVEN CUPID EVEN I AM NOT THAT STUPID HERE'S TO 'STANDIN TALL 'N DO ME A FLAVOR - DON'T CALL! I'LL BE BUSY 'TAKIN DANCE CLASS SORTA AFRO-BRAZIL 'N I PLANTED MYSELF THIS PRETTY WEEPING WILLOW TREE I'LL WATER IT WITH ALL THE TEARS I SAVED BY LEAVING YOU AND WHO ALL GIVES A HOOT ABOUT WHAT YOU THINK 'O ME IT'S EASIER THAN I THOUGHT IT WOULD EVER BE 'BEIN FREE 'O YOU WHAT DID I SEE IN YOU? CHALK IT UP TO A COUPLE 'O COLORFUL YEARS HERE'S TO 'LAUGHIN THROUGH MY TEARS IT'S EASIER THAN I THOUGHT IT WOULD EVER BE WHAT TEARS? IT'S EASIER THAN I THOUGHT IT WOULD EVER BE Eee ha! New Link

Subject: You could call it 'Father, Where Art Thou?' From: Pullaver To: Victor (Bob) Date Posted: Sun, Mar 03, 2002 at 16:59:48 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Howdy partner. Nice shootin' but thought I should let you know that no self-respecting cowboy drinks peppermint tea.|D

Subject: Re: 'Easier Than I Thought' From: Marshall To: Victor (Bob) Date Posted: Sun, Mar 03, 2002 at 13:47:56 (EST) Email Address: none Message: Victor/Bob, I really dug those lyrics man. Did you write them on the spot? Like you said? The words just kind of 'popped out' Did you mean popped out of your memory? Is it an old country tune? If you wrote that, then it might be time to head to Nashville... or at least Branson Missouri. No really, that was great, Thanx

Subject: Re: 'Easier Than I Thought' From: Ulf To: Victor (Bob) Date Posted: Sun, Mar 03, 2002 at 12:52:12 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks Bo Here is another one , that come to my mind ,,,, reading yours ,,, A song i had in my ears, many times when i first was leaving M I hate that foolish game we played and the need that was expressed. And the mercy that you showed to me , who ever would have guessed? I went out on lower Broadway and i felt that place within, That hollow place where martyrs weep and angels play with sin. Heard your songs of freedom and man forever stripped, acting out his folly while his back is being whipped Like a slave in orbit , he is beaten `til he is tame, All for a moment`s glory and it`s a dirty rotten shame... Dylan ( dirge )

Subject: Re: 'Easier Than I Thought' From: Victor (Bob) To: Ulf Date Posted: Sun, Mar 03, 2002 at 17:58:58 (EST) Email Address: marcelproust@earthlink.net Message: A couple of replies - to Pullaver - I would be glad to replace peppermint tea in the lyric with another 4 syllable word or words. Or a 3 syllable name for a tea that's less Little Miss Muffinish. I'll work on it or take suggestions. (Just don't ask for credit or moola if I sell it to Reba McIntire.) Marshall - Yeah, it was the first thing popped out of me when I woke up this morning. Aside from some small edits, it came out complete as you read it in about 15 minutes. I love it when it happens like that. I usually write songs that are lyrically more witty and hifalutin in a New York Jewish Cole Porterish theater style. But I usually don't experience the emotions 'regular' folks experience who write songs about love lost or love gained or love in any form, as I haven't been in any relationships of that sort for years (family members and friends and pets for some reason don't inspire love songs the way a nitty gritty get down love affair does). But when I just superimposed the writing of a broader popular style lyric upon my as yet rather unexpressed feelings about Maharaji, there it was. It then reminded me of the way (we) premies back before the big Exit Sign beckoned used to sing anything popular on the radio and it often seemed to fit like a glove as a love song to our True Love GMJ. The oddest example I can remember (recently referred to in Forum 7) is 'If You Think I'm Sexy' which blared forth at Holi in Miami (what's odder is that I believed he WAS sexy - let's not go there), along with, if I remember correctly, 'We Are Family (I Got All My Sisters And Me).' Another that comes to mind went something like 'When I Need You - I Just Close My Eyes And I'm With You' etc. I could listen to Billy Joel's 'I Love You Just The Way You Are' and experience it as a direct expression from Maharaji to me, making me feel that even though I was a worthless worm who did countless depraved unmentionable acts when I was hiding out in my mind not to mention my body, he had infinite compassion and would still allow me to come back to satsang, do service and contribute what I could to the cause. Music and songs are an extremely powerful force (even the I Ching devotes an entire hexagram to that one, reminding us of the political and social power harnessed and controlled by strong leaders and used to move large populations and communities). The canny selection of material especially at large programs used to impress me so much because it was so artfully and craftily done, selected and timed to touch nerve endings that were exposed and raw, and suck us in, to a world of utter abandon. I sometimes couldn't tell the difference between the puppet and the puppeteer; I would be swept away in the harmonies and the meanings of the lyrics. Now that I am a step or two removed, I can more deeply comprehend the technique being utilized to wipe me out, a grand spectacle of operatic proportions, replete with hi tech tricks and precision modulated vibratory choreography. Now that I am writing songs again -- (having not wanted to succeed for so many years unless I knew it was coming from pure service to him which since it wasn't then could never truly manifest - I had firmly planted myself in a box of immobility) -- I find myself free to release feelings and more immediatley express what I want with no strings attached to the puppeteer. I am happy to have a muse (the creative flow) with nobody's signature attached to it. I trust more will come out of me, if only so that I will be able to express myself, let out the things that were sealed and undelivered to anyone's door. Finally, Ulf - thank you for the Dylan lyric. Reading that instantly reminds me what rough strong lyric writing can be. I sometimes wonder who writes the songs I want to hear, that ever can reflect an intelligence and a depth of experience and a charming way of putting it forth. If any of you would like to suggest a 'listening list' of songs for ex-premies that you find good quality, real and moving or just fun - do let me hear from you.

Subject: Damn good post, Victor. Many thanks From: PatC To: Victor (Bob) Date Posted: Sun, Mar 03, 2002 at 19:12:26 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You said: ''Now that I am writing songs again -- (having not wanted to succeed for so many years unless I knew it was coming from pure service to him which since it wasn't then could never truly manifest - I had firmly planted myself in a box of immobility) -- I find myself free to release feelings and more immediatley express what I want with no strings attached to the puppeteer.'' Many of us have said the same thing. I tried for many years to write a book which had been suggested to me by Rawat in a dream (yeah I know I was nuts) and it never worked. Now the dam has burst. I was just about to ask you by email how your song-writing was coming on. Now I see your name in lights over a Broadway marquee.

Subject: Hey Ulf From: gerry To: Ulf Date Posted: Sun, Mar 03, 2002 at 17:39:16 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: What song is that quote from? I'm a big Dylan fan, have been ever since spinning his 45's as a twelve year old who took things far too seriously...

Subject: hi Gerry From: Ulf To: gerry Date Posted: Sun, Mar 03, 2002 at 18:42:28 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Gerry The song is called ` dirge` and it is on the record called : planet wawes. I agree , about taking things far too seiously, i did that when i was young also. Infact i still wonder why it was so importent for me , to know all the answers, seems like it was a sickness , that many from our generation had. My own childen , never care about god,,,,,,,,,,i thank god for that.. Cheers Ulf Ulf

Subject: Quiet and Cat From: Livia To: All Date Posted: Sun, Mar 03, 2002 at 08:57:13 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Don't know if anybody will be interested, but I was amused to see that over on LG Quiet and Catweasle have become great chatting buddies, surprise, surprise, bitching away together about the dreadful treatment he received here. Q is also all over the place on LG and also on AG, talking loads of trivia. Not much mention any more of his burning urge to expose M. It's like a breath of fresh air without him here and I probably shouldn't have mentioned him at all. With love to all, Livia

Subject: you mention the trolls? [nt] From: See what happens when To: Livia Date Posted: Sun, Mar 03, 2002 at 10:38:01 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: when darkness finds a voice From: Yes we see what happens To: See what happens when Date Posted: Mon, Mar 04, 2002 at 00:16:24 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: stupid ugly personalities like you slither out of the woodwork and vomit up provocative comments - you are a real asset to humanity

Subject: Re: Quiet and Cat From: Catweasel~) To: Livia Date Posted: Sun, Mar 03, 2002 at 09:10:46 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Silly person.You liked the Walter Mitty post on AG.Wake up.If you read the thread you might get a handle on it... Quiet is ..er well...unusual....;)

Subject: Shakeup in Canadian Government! From: Jim To: All Date Posted: Sat, Mar 02, 2002 at 21:19:10 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: This just in -- apparently Jean Chretien will NOT continue as prime minister after all!: Is it in the stars? Astrologer boldly predicts next Liberal leader at Psychic Expo MONTREAL (CP) - If the sign on astrologer Soundara Rajan's kiosk at the ESP Psychic Expo is anywhere near the truth, Allan Rock will certainly like what she had to say Saturday. 'Gets only 98 per cent accuracy and has only 49 years of experience,' read the disclaimer on Rajan's desk as she prepared herself to predict who will become the next leader of the federal Liberal party. Rajan was given three candidates - Jean Chretien, Paul Martin and Rock. After consulting her vast planetary charts and doing some quick calculations, Rajan gave her prediction. 'Allan Rock is the one who will be coming out of it with flying colours, that's what I see,' the Ottawa resident said confidently. 'Even though people might like Paul Martin and he could have high grades, there may be some kind of a conflict or something at the last minute. So Allan Rock will be the one, and Chretien will be there, but not quite.' Well that's that. With efficiency like this, who needs a leadership race? Rajan occupied one of about 100 kiosks at the annual psychic fair in Old Montreal, which this year displayed the impact of the technology age on the ancient world of fortune telling. Raymond Duquette of St-Faustin was there to show off his 'biofeedback camera.' The machine is basically a big camera connected to a box where clients place their right hand. Duquette said the box uses sensors to read 'wavelengths' and transmit them to the camera, where 75 lights are used to take that information and display them onto photograph in various colours. According to Duquette, the colours represent the client's 'aura.' 'People sometimes create a mask to hide themselves, or to become something they are not,' Duquette said. 'This removes the mask.' Sabin Caron wouldn't have come to the psychic expo without his trusty computer, which he has programmed to read palms, faces, tarot cards and analyse handwriting through the use of a scanner. 'The computer calculates each form, then it will say that this person has, for example, forehead number 1269,' Caron said. 'Then it will look in its program and find out what that type of forehead means.' Although there were few of these clairvoyant computers around, most of the psychics at the expo did their work the old fashioned way: reading palms or tarot cards and charging anywhere from $40 to $75 a pop for the trouble. One pair of fortune seekers left their reading utterly unsatisfied. 'She was telling us about our lives but she never got specific, it was very vague,' said Katherine Dicker after she and her friend Shelley Hawkins handed over $75 for a reading. 'I was expecting more details, for her to tell us things we had been through to make sure it was real. She said I was in a relationship that would be very good for me. I'm like, 'Hello? I'm single.' ' Hawkins didn't see any mystic insight in the reading. 'I could have done that just by reading a book and telling someone, 'Oh, life, love, whatever.' I wanted details,' she said. However, Marilyn Rossner, who is blessed with what she referred to as the 'gift,' defended her chosen vocation. 'I take what I do very seriously,' she said, bedecked in bright orange sunglasses that concealed a generous daubing of blue eyeshadow. 'I don't consider myself a fortune teller, I look upon each of us as having our own, inherent qualities. All I can do is guide them, I believe in teaching personal responsibility.' However, Rossner said, in her own particular way, that psychics shouldn't quit their day jobs. 'I certainly would not feel comfortable if I knew I had to do a certain number of consultations a month to pay my bills,' said Rossner, a retired special education teacher. 'I encourage people to have a job so they are able to use the gift. I believe the gift is given to us, so it's important to look upon it as a gift.'

Subject: News from Latvia - Raja Ji's UK Tour From: JHB To: All Date Posted: Sat, Mar 02, 2002 at 17:47:24 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: According to my mole deep in the Latvian forest (or maybe one of the hundred beneath my lawn), Raja Ji, brother of two Guru Maharaji Ji's, will soon be touring the UK. Maybe someone could go along and ask him which of his brothers is the real Satguru. --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- - national email: february 2002 Events with Raja ji in the UK It is a great pleasure to announce that Raja ji will be attending a series of events in the UK as part of an extensive tour of Europe. Sat 23rd March Manchester An afternoon of inspiration for people with knowledge and aspirants Sun 24th March Bristol An afternoon of inspiration and information for people with knowledge and aspirants Monday 25th London An open event for everyone. The event will be suitable for guests. Easter Saturday 30th March London An event for the hindi/tamil speaking community Easter Sunday 31st March Leicester An event for the hindi/tamil speaking community Full details below. MANCHESTER 23rd You are invited to an afternoon of inspiration with guest speaker Instructor Raja Ji to be held at Manchester Conference Centre Sackville Street Manchester City Centre M60 1QD on Saturday 23rd March commencing at 4 pm. The event is for People with Knowledge and People preparing for Knowledge. Please note this is not an introductory event. If you are able to support the event costs, a suggested donation of £10 would be very welcome. BRISTOL 24th RAMADA PLAZA HOTEL (what was the Jarvis) Redcliffe Way, near Temple Meads station. Email address for map and directions: ramadajarvis.co.uk/hotels/BRSRP_4.html The event, for people with knowledge and aspirants, will be from 3.30 pm to 5.30 pm There will be a suggested donation of £5.00 - £10.00 to cover the cost of the event - but as always you are welcome to come if you are unable to give a donation LONDON 25th Monday the 25th March at Kensington New Town Hall, Hornton Street London W8 starting at 8.00pm until approx 9.15pm. The Nearest Tube Station is Kennsington High Street. 5 minutes walk from the venue. A warm invite is extended to everyone in London and the surrounding area. Please feel free to bring friends and guests who you wish to introduce to Maharaji. There will be materials and information made available before and after the event. LONDON HINDI 30th Type of Event: For Hindi/ Tamil people with knowledge, and aspirants Date : Saturday 30th March 2002 Venue: Westminister University College, Northwick Park, Watford Road, Harrow, Middlesex. Next to Northwick Park Hospital. Nearest Tube Station: Northwick Park- On Metropolitan Line. Buses: 183,182 Time : 6.30pm to 8.00pm Doors open: 6.00pm LEICESTER HINDI 31st Event Date - Sunday 31st March: Type of event - Hindi event for people with knowledge, and aspirants Start Time - 2.00pm (Duration up to 2 hrs) Venue - Hanover International Hotel Watling Street Hinkley Leics LE10 3JA --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- -

Subject: Re: News from Latvia - Raja Ji's UK Tour From: wpc girl To: JHB Date Posted: Sat, Mar 02, 2002 at 20:39:52 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: wow another chance to chew the fat with the old crew. good old raja ji always there to shore up the family firm I thought it was genuine brotherly loyalty that sent him out to pass the hat for big m, maybe I'll pop along for old times sake. Last time I went to one of his Knees ups he seemed not to remember me but it was good to say hi to old friends who did Only £5 or £10 to sit through a lengthy and heartfelt request to open my bank acount to the lord has to be a bargain thanks for the info and jai sat etc. wpc girl

Subject: Brother of 2 GMJ's - LOL! From: Richard To: JHB Date Posted: Sat, Mar 02, 2002 at 19:28:28 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Your funny line about Raja Ji (Daram Pal Singh Rawat), being the brother of two, count 'em two, Guru Maharaj Ji's made me laugh. Then I wondered, when does Raja Ji begin to feel that he should be the one to spread the word of his Master and father? It could happen and stranger things have happened.

Subject: spread the moola, like budda [nt] From: It's like buddah, darlink to To: Richard Date Posted: Sat, Mar 02, 2002 at 21:44:48 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: News from Latvia - Raja Ji's UK Tour From: opie To: JHB Date Posted: Sat, Mar 02, 2002 at 18:20:53 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Oh sheesh John, you gone and done it now mate! The security will be tighter than a rat infested shark (whatever that is!). LOL :) Meet ya for a pint or three afterwards eh? OP

Subject: New Journey Entry From: Steve Quint To: All Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 20:48:59 (EST) Email Address: the_avenger55@hotmail.com Message: I just posted a journey entry on E.P.O. for the first time and I look forward to seeing it up. I've been involved with E.P.O. and the forums for over a year and I have no doubt that the mind-fucks which passed as knowledge are still being worked out of my system. The archives of forum 5 are not accessible, if anyone here can do something about this. Thanks, Steve

Subject: Hello Steve... From: Cynthia To: Steve Quint Date Posted: Sat, Mar 02, 2002 at 21:38:56 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I like your journey. How are you? I'm taking a break from the forum (as you can see I'm lurking) and saw your name (now don't call me a mother). I hope you're well, Steve. Email me any time sylviecyn@yahoo.com You be well, Cynthia

Subject: Forum Archives From: JHB To: Steve Quint Date Posted: Sat, Mar 02, 2002 at 01:47:41 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Steve, The Forum 5 archives work fine for me. Follow the link from the home page which will take you to www.ex-premie3.org. If you have an old bookmark it won't work. I'll post your journey soon. John.

Subject: Text Of New Journey Entry From: Steve Quint To: Steve Quint Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 21:05:44 (EST) Email Address: the_avenger55@hotmail.com Message: I was nineteen in 1972 when I saw a poster in my school with maha's picture on it. I went to a program where I expected the maha to be speaking based on the advertising, and got fakiranand. He was wearing a saffron robe, as was a Hare Krishna devotee in the audience who got up during his speach and started taking exception to fakiranand's interpretation of the Gita. Fakiranand got up into the audience, which was my sister's high school auditorium, and people in the audience started laughing and crying. The program was aborted, but I made a mental note to check this out some time in the future. I also made a mental note when the lights started flickering and read in the next day's newspaper that a large power failure occurred in the entire west side of Montreal, the failing transformer being accross the street from the high school. A few months later I was in a friend's living room waiting for my friend's older brother who was supposed to cut my long hair so I could get a job. I wanted money to go to India to find the perfect master, or Satguru so I could find peace, contentment, etc. - I had read a lot of books. My friend's younger brother came in with a friend of his - the two of them had received 'knowledge' and gave me the address of the ashram so I could too. I did get the hair cut and did go to the ashram where I encountered mahatma krishnasukanand. I experienced there what I considered cosmic coincidences and experiences and concluded that the head of this organization, maharaji, must be cosmic and real. In 1977 I had not received knowledge or kept close contact with the ashrams, but wanted to meet maharaji to clear up confusion. I found out from my sister that maharaji was going to be coming to Montreal soon - another cosmic coincidendce so I thought. I was pacing my house for a few days before he came - there was a lot of nervous energy. I was sitting at the back of the Montreal Forum the first night of Peace Flight in April 1977 and started sobbing when maharaji walked on stage - dissipating the nervous energy and leaving me with a peaceful feeling inside - cosmic I thought again. Over the years I think I attended more local events than anyone else in my region, prompted by memories such as the ones I've just mentioned and hoping to some day 'realize knowledge'. So how did I end up in these web pages cricizing maharaji? I don't know - two years ago something told me that the whole thing was a monumental fraud. I'm still sorting out what all happened - may trying from this perspective will help. I intend to fill in more details later. Regards To All Steve

Subject: Thanks for sharing that Steve From: Richard To: Steve Quint Date Posted: Sun, Mar 03, 2002 at 23:19:46 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Your telling of the story brings it all back for me. I received K from Fakiranand and Krishnasukanand was definitely the cosmic hipster ladies man. One thing that I'm not clear about, though. You said: In 1977 I had not received knowledge or kept close contact with the ashrams, but wanted to meet maharaji to clear up confusion. It sounds like you didn't receive K. If that's true, your story is a testament to the power of persuasion and seduction inherent in M's trip with or without K.

Subject: Thanks for your Journey, Steve From: PatC To: Steve Quint Date Posted: Sat, Mar 02, 2002 at 04:09:49 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: That was brilliant; beautifully written and took me back, way back to when we all thought the way you described your cosmic signs and omens and coincidences. You said: ''I experienced there what I considered cosmic coincidences and experiences and concluded that the head of this organization, maharaji, must be cosmic and real. ''I found out from my sister that maharaji was going to be coming to Montreal soon - another cosmic coincidendce so I thought. ''I was sitting at the back of the Montreal Forum the first night of Peace Flight in April 1977 and started sobbing when maharaji walked on stage - dissipating the nervous energy and leaving me with a peaceful feeling inside - cosmic I thought again.'' Yes, me too. I was there in Montreal in May of 77. It was very magical, cosmic, trippy, divine and well.....after all we thought Rev Rawat was Jesus, or even better much better than that, even greater than god. It makes me feel embarassed because you were still a kid and I was already 30 and still thinking like dumb hippie in those days and for many years afterwards too. Well, I was a slow learner. I hope there's more where that came from but thanks for taking the time to write this instalment.

Subject: Re: Thanks for your Journey, Steve From: Steve Quint To: PatC Date Posted: Sun, Mar 03, 2002 at 19:58:05 (EST) Email Address: the_avenger55@hotmail.com Message: Thanks for your inspiring response. As you may know, I have been going through an incredibly challenging time during the last few months, roughly dating back to the time I spoke to you on the phone. I cannot find your phone number for some reason - you know my email address so if you'd like to talk again, please email me your phone number. All the best, Steve

Subject: I'll email you, Steve From: PatC To: Steve Quint Date Posted: Sun, Mar 03, 2002 at 20:16:29 (EST) Email Address: pdconlon@hotmail.com Message: I'll do it tomorrow when I'm off work but you can always email me and nag me if I forget.

Subject: Text Of New Journey Entry [nt] From: Good luck/regards Steve To: Steve Quint Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 22:22:37 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: I second that as I said it in the first place:) [nt] From: Dermot To: Good luck/regards Steve Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 22:23:51 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Good Mother - Bad Mother From: Scott T. To: All Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 17:29:56 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi: I posted this (most of it anyway) on the AG2 forum in relation to an argument about terrorist cults. It basically is derived from some stuff I've been reading recently in Jerrold Post's excellent book: Political Paranoia: The Psychopolitics of Hatred. The relevance to cults like EV is a bit different than to hate groups, but I think it's on topic. There's a psychologist named Melanie Klein who has evolved something called 'object theory' that's very promising. The basic idea there is that we all internalize reactions to good and bad mothering that occurs in infancy. When our mother does something reassuring it gets internalized as the 'loving object' whereas when she does something threatening or neglectful it gets internalized as the 'persecuting object.' As a coping mechanism, because it's enormously threatening and uncomfortable to have an internal enemy, we learn to retain the loving object, making it the center of the self concept, and project the persecuting object so that others become the manifestation of that evil we seek to avoid in ourselves. There are even theories suggesting that the loving object is the source of our concepts about God, while the persecuting object is the source of our concept of the Devil. The process of reconciling these two incompatible objects has two consequences called the depressive and the paranoid-schizoid 'positions.' (We get depressed and full of self-reproach when we find the persecuting object within, and then paranoid when we project it onto others. So the two positions are opposing endpoints on a scale.) This all takes place in early childhood, and is natural. Most of us move back and forth between these positions as we mature, and eventually arrive at a middle position where we conclude that we had a 'good enough' mother. But some don't. Some people get stuck, for one reason or another. Or because of trauma they revert. These manifest as criminal behavior, or self destructive behavior, or just plain psychoses. But the point is that we all have both objects, and therefore have the potential for an imbalance. Enter group dynamics, and particularly religion and politics. You take perfectly ordinary people and subject them to a group dynamic of some sort and the pathological imbalances start to emerge as group behaviors. The frequency of psychoses, or at least psychotic behavior, can change radically. Take three group behaviors that are called, according to this model, the Dependency Group, the Pairing Group and the Fight-Flight Group: In the Dependency Group the members behave as if the leader were all-knowing and all-powerful. Eventually they conclude that they have no expertise or competence of their own, and ascribe all those qualities to the leader. They no longer trust their own judgment. [Seem familiar?] Similarly, in the Pairing Group the members act as though their 'job' is to produce the messiah or the millennium. And there's also the 'Fight-Flight' group, which sees itself surrounded by enemies, and chooses one of two possible responses. The point here is that the group dynamics overrule the naked preferences and proclivities of the individuals within it. It can cause a *much higher* and far more frequent manifestation of the paranoid-schizoid or the depressive position than would otherwise be the case, even to the point of binding all members to a psychotic behavior. This is what happened with the Jim Jones group, which was primarily a 'Flight' group dynamic. Terrorist groups are particularly adept at not only seeing enemies, but creating them. 'By virtue of their acts vis-à-vis society, the terrorists transform their psychological state into a reality.' (Jerrold Post, p.85) Such groups may be small, or they may be national in scale (or even supranational). The specific beliefs of the group will determine the way the pathology manifests, as well as its frequency. For instance, much higher frequency of suicide bombers are manifested by Islamic extremist groups, because the larger belief system tends to create warrior or 'fight' cults. It is not that *all* Moslems are warlike or non-loving. So, the 'hook' in a group like the Maharaji cult is that they somehow put us closer to the loving object, by causing us to let down our normal defenses and to distrust our normal coping mechanisms. At least that was the case for me. We all retain a certain nostalgia for the loving object, of course. I think there are even situations where genuine creativity and constructive social change can be generated either by a religious or political group dynamic of this kind. The American Revolution comes to mind as well as the Indian Independence movement. The loving object could be the explanation for the phenomenon of charisma, as well. But it's very powerful medicine, and not to be employed lightly. If the group dynamic goes so far that it convinces people that their own expertise and insight are not to be trusted, or at least given credence, then chances are the dynamic isn't truly constructive. And if one begins to see a lot of fixation on either the depressive or paranoid-schizoid position that would be another alarm. So, to me this helps explain the very odd responses one sees in the Islamic world to surveys about 9-11. It also explains the seemingly mindless defenses we see so often from premies. It *is* a type of psychosis, pure and simple. And intervention at the individual level still makes sense, with cult busting and deprogramming techniques, for instance. Assuming most of these people would otherwise be well-balanced you should be able to return most of them to that state eventually, with the right intervention. The psychological imbalance is an artifact of the dysfunctional group dynamic. And where you have a dysfunctional paranoid group dynamic on a national scale, from which violent subgroups draw members, then such intervention would mainly be a means of gaining intelligence by 'reforming' certain violent cult members, until you can do something to change the larger dynamic and 'drain the swamp' that produces extremism. (No small task, I suppose.) At the very least it suggests that torture is not only immoral, but ill-advised because it merely reinforces the 'surrounded by enemies' fight group conclusion. And it's unnecessary, of course, given enough time. --Scott

Subject: Too deep for me From: Jerry To: Scott T. Date Posted: Sun, Mar 03, 2002 at 09:20:38 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Scott, wouldn't you say this is just one of a hundred ways of looking at things? Take the mother/child dynamic, read into it, and voila!, we've got the terrorists all figured out - it's Mom's fault. I think not. I'd at least hope the theory would be more interesting, though. This one's kind of dull.

Subject: Re: Too deep for me From: Scott T. To: Jerry Date Posted: Sun, Mar 03, 2002 at 12:25:26 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jerry: Well, the test of a model is whether it works to explain and predict behavior. At the very least it offers a starting point to begin to test theories. No, I don't think there are 'a thousand ways to look at this.' Breakthroughs in the cognitive sciences, for instance, will probably fine tune some of these models, and we'll get closer and closer to an explanatory and predictive theory. --Scott

Subject: Re: Good Mother - Bad Mother From: Cynthia To: Scott T. Date Posted: Sat, Mar 02, 2002 at 12:35:41 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi, Here's a Melanie Klein link. She's dead now, but she has quite a following--called Kleinians or some such. I've also provided a link to Alice Miller, whose writings, approach to infancy and childhood psychology, and child rearing are far superior to Melanie Klein's, IMHO. Far superior. In this link to Alice Miller you'll find a list of books and information about her psychological post-mortem of Hitler (including his childhood batterings). There's also an explanation of Freud's Oedipus Complex which has now been debunked (Miller was one of the debunkers). The Oedipus Complex has proved to be a huge setback in the history of all psychology because it wasn't real. Read about it. Might surprise you. I have an aversion to anything Freudian. Makes my skin itch.:) Psychoanalysts are a weird breed. I don't like them. They concentrate on symbols too much by taking much too much time with archetypes and crap like that, and sometimes create in their clients much more chaos than others in the world of psychotherapy would. Not to mention the amount of time it takes for them to figure stuff out for a client. Talk about milking it. As for the good mom/bad mom thingy, it's obvious to me that the mother will always be the most closely bonded to any child for obvious reasons. That's a generalization of course. I think Klein's 'object theory' is a way of explaining information about child abuse which has little value in today's world. Alice Miller, on the other hand, is proactive. Each to his own. Whatever... I'll say it again, Raven is a book about Jim Jones which explains through meticulous research the life of Jones from birth to death. I highly recommend it. The similarities between the Jones cult and the Maharajism cult are stunning. Jones had an inner circle, as all cults do. He had charisma, as did Maharaji. He was called ''Father,'' by his followers. He did many of the same things Maharaji has done: he used followers sexually (female and male), was considered GOD by followers (his own invention and indoctrination), he programmed his followers to do his bidding using repetition and exhaustion, as well as taking control over their money; he was obsessed with having supreme control over everyone in his midst. Anyone who left the cult was considered a traitor, and someone to be stalked and harrassed. Jones instilled great fear of leaving his cult just like Maharaji does--long before they went to Guyana. The thing is this: Jones was getting a lot of negative publicity in San Francisco during the time he packed it all up for Jonestown. Once he got just about everyone there, it was no less than a concentration camp. Makes me wonder about Amaroo. And he held practice sessions called ''White Nights'' which were suicide rehearsals. When Jones carried out the mass murder, when he was faced with Congressman Ryan and members of the US press, many followers had already wanted to leave, did not want to kill themselves, and especially didn't want to kill their children. That's why the children were poisoned first. Even though they loved Jones as ''Father,'' or GOD, many still did not want to die. It was murder. Plus, you need to be careful about throwing around the word ''psychosis.'' There are correct definitions and many interpretations. Specificity is required around that word, IMHO. I do highly recommend reading Alice Miller's books. Alice Miller site: http://www.naturalchild.com/alice_miller/booklist.html Melanie Klein (if link doesn't work) http://www.psychematters.com/bibliographies/klein.htm Cynthia Melanie Klein www.psychematters.com/bibliographies/klein.htm

Subject: Re: Good Mother - Bad Mother From: Scott T. To: Cynthia Date Posted: Sat, Mar 02, 2002 at 15:25:14 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Cynthia: There is a huge temptation to regard these models as 'real' (I think the term is 'reify.') The problem is that the only model that's 100% accurate is reality itself. Because I'm a sociologist, I tend to prefer group theories to psychological explanations for human behavior, but psychological theories have their place. I wonder, for instance, what the value is of analyzing Hitler if you think (as I do) that he was simply the choice of a dysfunctional group dynamic that Weber predicted some 40 years before it manifested. Hitler even saw *himself* as 'replaceable' according to Hannah Arendt. Perhaps in understanding the leader, though, we get some further insight into the group. I'll say it again, Raven is a book about Jim Jones which explains through meticulous research the life of Jones from birth to death. I highly recommend it. The similarities between the Jones cult and the Maharajism cult are stunning. Jones had an inner circle, as all cults do. He had charisma, as did Maharaji. He was called ''Father,'' by his followers. He did many of the same things Maharaji has done: he used followers sexually (female and male), was considered GOD by followers (his own invention and indoctrination), he programmed his followers to do his bidding using repetition and exhaustion, as well as taking control over their money; he was obsessed with having supreme control over everyone in his midst. Anyone who left the cult was considered a traitor, and someone to be stalked and harrassed. Jones instilled great fear of leaving his cult just like Maharaji does--long before they went to Guyana. Yeah, but this is all very common to dysfunctional groups. It can't all be because we have these predators sneaking around out there pulling the wool over our eyes. I think the way to go here is to investigate the susceptibilities of so-called 'normal' people. Not that the norm is necessarily healthy, but the susceptibilities exist because on some level they're just normal coping mechanisms. We have good reason, for instance, not to be 100% trusting or trustworthy. When Jones carried out the mass murder, when he was faced with Congressman Ryan and members of the US press, many followers had already wanted to leave, did not want to kill themselves, and especially didn't want to kill their children. That's why the children were poisoned first. Even though they loved Jones as ''Father,'' or GOD, many still did not want to die. It was murder. Well, this isn't all that difficult to explain either. Once there's a critical mass of belief it's easy to impose social and other controls on the rest, either through belief systems or through direct manipulation and/or force. The Soviet Union, under Stalin, was a paranoid society that had a paranoid leader. There has to be a certain recursiveness in that dynamic, but the Russian culture is susceptible to that sort of thing. Stir in a strong dose of Marxism and the result was fairly predictable. The point is that not just people and groups who are stuck in a paranoid position have the tendancy. We all do. I take your point about use of the word psychosis, but there must be a more accurate and powerful word than 'dysfunction.' That doesn't quite convey the capacity for delusion. Thanks for the link. I'll check it out. --Scott --Scott

Subject: Re: Good Mother - Bad Mother From: Cynthia To: Scott T. Date Posted: Sat, Mar 02, 2002 at 17:02:36 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Well, you your post just blew over my head...phew That's okay. Thanks for replying, Scott:) Cynthia, who's trying to take a forum break, but couldn't resist

Subject: GBad Mata(thinks my older bro is!) From: bill-good mata(agrees I am god) To: Scott T. Date Posted: Sat, Mar 02, 2002 at 11:57:26 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Scott T, This 'The basic idea there is that we all internalize reactions to good and bad mothering that occurs in infancy. When our mother does something reassuring it gets internalized as the 'loving object' whereas when she does something threatening or neglectful it gets internalized as the 'persecuting object.' As a coping mechanism, because it's enormously threatening and uncomfortable to have an internal enemy, we learn to retain the loving object, making it the center of the self concept, and project the persecuting object so that others become the manifestation of that evil we seek to avoid in ourselves. There are even theories suggesting that the loving object is the source of our concepts about God, while the persecuting object is the source of our concept of the Devil' This may be perhaps defeated just on the 'peas in the pod' theorum. Same parents, same childcare, same benefits or horrors, and you get no two kids the same at all! Also, the subject matter is trying to dissect why our nature is why it is without first covering the issue of the nature of the god/devil thingee that we have to contend with. By leaving out the basic reality here, he is of course free to imagine that it could be this or that, but if he really wants to know why we are like we are, he cant short cut the learning curve by ignoring or discounting the god/devil force that the evidence insists is there!

Subject: i'm curious scott-- From: janet To: Scott T. Date Posted: Sat, Mar 02, 2002 at 00:56:09 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: what are the 'odd responses ' you refer to among muslims re sept 11th? you didn't say. as to deprogramming the more violent members in hopes of having them turn around and change the minds of the rest, Malcom X comes to mind, and he was murdered for betraying his previously likeminded brethren in the Nation of Islam [the Black Muslims of Elijah Muhammed]. So there goes that theory. Marianne has explaineto us repeatedly, here on these boards, that it was Jim Jones whbecame paranoid and moved his cult to Guyana, not the members. They had to go where he went, but the paranoia was his, not theirs. The enmity propagandized into the members of Al Qaida and its likeminded extremist groups does put them in the paranoia/enemies category, but they didn't make that notion up out of whole cloth from imagination. America's policies in their lands have given them ample material from which to conceive of their hatred and wrath towards America, the Government. I doubt that any but the actual sept 11th hijackers even know what America, the People, are like in real everyday life. and there again, too, sadly, in recent years, even the people seem to be degrading to a lower and lower level of behavior, witness the pervasiveness of profanity, smut, violence, crime, illiteracy, gang mentality, drugs, selfishness and overall crudeness present in society today, compared to a decade or a generation ago. As far as terrorist Muslims go, They weren't viewed by us as our enemies-not until they decided we were their enemies, and started carrying out acts against us, that polarized the sentiments. I think it goes back to the fall of the Shah of Iran in? 1979?, with the rise of the Ayatollah Khomeini and the taking of the hostages. From there, it went to the Gulf war and Saddam Hussein, and now sept 11th and Osama Bin Laden. And assorted events in between, like lockerbie and the USS Cole and so forth. but erall, the theory, at least on the individual level, seems strong. I have one friend who rails against the Government at every turn, which becomes odd the longer you know him--until you learn his life story and find out that his father abandoned him in babyhood and rejected him, and the old man is in the Navy. Rather than face his pain over the rejection of his dad, the guy has sublimated his sense of rejection, rage, injustice and being wronged, onto a safer, more distant, impersonal target-ie, the Government--but it has trapped him stuck where he is, emotionally, developmentally, and intellectually. He has internalized the rejection to the point where he beats himself up for every weakness, and sabotages every good opportunity that appears. And of course, he seeks others who reinforce his feelings, so he unfailingly gravitates to the homeless, the runaways, the bitter and dispossessed, and scorns or distrusts the successful, the optimistic, the ambitious, or th conventional and happily established. And unfortunately, what rules is immediate feelings, so objective insight is all but impossible. As they say in Adult Children of Alcoholics, 'Normal feels strange.'

Subject: Re: i'm curious scott-- From: Scott T. To: janet Date Posted: Sat, Mar 02, 2002 at 09:38:48 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I think it's a little odd that the vast majority of Muslims don't believe the Arabs responsible for WTC, that the CIA or Israelis did it for some reason. as to deprogramming the more violent members in hopes of having them turn around and change the minds of the rest, I actually hadn't considered that. Don't know if it would work, and the history of Islam suggests it wouldn't. No, I was just talking about getting intelligence, on targets etc. Marianne has explaineto us repeatedly, here on these boards, that it was Jim Jones whbecame paranoid and moved his cult to Guyana, not the members. They had to go where he went, but the paranoia was his, not theirs. The paranoia was the group's, and was enforced on those who would otherwise not have been inclined to go along through social pressure and outright force. It's nuts to think Jim Jones was the only person who was paranoid in that group. But the leader is obviously te one supplying the 'authoritative vision.' I think you'd be very hard pressed to explain the behavior of the people in this or most dysfunctional groups without access to a 'group dynamic' concept. Ultimately though, the source of the dynamic, what makes it work, is the basic split in human nature... the opposition of objects and the need to project. The enmity propagandized into the members of Al Qaida and its likeminded extremist groups does put them in the paranoia/enemies category, but they didn't make that notion up out of whole cloth from imagination. Who said they did? The belief in covert communists in the US government wasn't made up of whole cloth either. But paranoia has certain characteristics, for instance the exclusive search for and collection of 'evidence' that supports the conclusion, the failure to recognize the possibility of non-conspiratorial explanations for events, etc., etc. As far as terrorist Muslims go, They weren't viewed by us as our enemies-not until they decided we were their enemies, and started carrying out acts against us, that polarized the sentiments. Gee, I always considered them *my* enemies. Didn't you? The level of threat was certainly underestimated though. Hell, there were articles a decade ago in Atlantic about the eventual consequences of arming the Mujahadeen. Again, the level of threat was discounted but we knew the logic was valid. The world is a complicated place. You know, one of the things I always thought odd about the Salem incident was that *all* of the victims were Calvinists, in spite of the fact that there were a lot of Quakers and other people living in the area. Why didn't they see the Quakers, or the pagans for that matter, as potential witches? --Scott

Subject: Addendum From: Scott T. To: Scott T. Date Posted: Sat, Mar 02, 2002 at 11:25:38 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: as to deprogramming the more violent members in hopes of having them turn around and change the minds of the rest, I decided I needed to expand on that answer. Actually my working theory is that Islam itself has to come to some conclusion about the 'Great Reversal' that resulted in the decline dating from the 17th Century just as the Western ascent really got humming. Reform movements, for instance the 'Young Ottomans,' in the 19th Century, the 'Young Turks' in the early 20th, and Kemal Ataturk, as well as the anti-slavery movement that began in the 1840s (to the extent that it originated within Islam and wasn't the result of Western pressure) all suggest that this re-thinking *can* happen. The anti-cult activity would play only a minor part, if that. --Scott

Subject: Re: Good Mother - Bad Mother From: PatC To: Scott T. Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 19:09:48 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Excellent writing as usual, Scott, although I would not equate the Indian Independence movement with the American Revolution. There were plenty of psychotic devotees of Mahatma Ghandi who slaughtered thousands of Muslims and a few Brits too. (Eventually Ghandi was assassinated by one of his devotees who thought he had compromised too much with the Muslims.) But I'll save the poltical stuff for the other forum. :P I have certainly seen in my own mind that most of my mental dis-ease stemmed from contradictory feelings about my own mother some of which I only really finally resolved in my 30s.

Subject: PS Durga=Good Mother. Kali=Bad Mother From: PatC To: PatC Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 20:22:43 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Kali and Durga are often regarded as the same goddess. Of course everyone who knows anything about Hinduism has seen pictures of Kali depicted as giving birth from one hand and bearing a dagger dripping with blood in the other, a mala of skulls around her neck and a skirt of severed limbs around her waist. The goddess of sex and death. She is the favorite goddess of the Tamilian Indians in South Africa. Her various cults border on animism and black magic.

Subject: Re: PS Durga=Good Mother. Kali=Bad Mother From: Scott T. To: PatC Date Posted: Sat, Mar 02, 2002 at 09:56:10 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I had a female friend who was obsessed with thoughts of stabbing and killing her small son. The guilt of having the thoughts nearly drove her nuts, until she discovered and accepted that most mothers have these fantasies. At that point the thoughts stopped occuring with much frequency. I think it was the 'don't think about a white elephant' syndrome. Anyway, these are all just models. Reality is usually more complex. They're just meant to be a kind of tool or aid to understanding and treatment. --Scott

Subject: Re: PS Durga=Good Mother. Kali=Bad Mother From: janet To: PatC Date Posted: Sat, Mar 02, 2002 at 01:13:22 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I have never been able to identify with Durga, but I understood Kali intstantly, once i became a mother. I used to be horrified by the image of her, until I felt the murderous power awaken in me during pregnancy, knowing for the first time that I could easily kill anyone who came near and threatened my young--includiy own blood family members, if need be..but more astonishing still, realized that I could also kill my own children, to prevent anyone else from having them, or if they displeased me and disobeyed me to a point that endangered the survival of all of us, or any of a number of other inborn instincts. Beleive me, I was overwhelmed to find that such surges went thru me. But I understood Mother Kali completely from then on. She can kill her children precisely because she knows she can bring them forth again. It is a mistake to see her as merely a human mother. Think rather of mother in all life forms. Mother earth. Mother ocean. Mother Nature. The possessiveness of motherhood is shocking when it is experienced firsthand.

Subject: Phew... From: PatD To: Scott T. Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 18:25:34 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ...I always knew Mata Ji was a gold plated bitch. Where does that leave twinkle toes ? Glad to know we don't have to torture premies into submission to the monmot viewpoint. I am normal & I like Burt Weedon. (old song) My Bishop's eyes I've never seen Though the light in them may shine; For when he prays he closes his, And when he preaches,mine. (even older song) Sorry Melanie.

Subject: Let's not be sexist From: JHB To: Scott T. Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 18:10:23 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I think the same internalisation and projection applies to fathers as well. Here are two experiences I had. The first was a year before receiving knowledge. I found myself on a bench beside a bowling green in the middle of the night in January 1973, in Fleetwood, Lancashire, tripping. The temperature was minus something. At the height of the trip, I faced the devil within me, but I held fast and tried to go there. The image changed to my father shouting. In 1977, I was watching and listening to Maharaji at Wembley Arena, London. It was the last night of the programme, and I felt particularly devoted. I had listened to satsang all day, hadn't spaced out at all. The only break I took was to get food, and even then I brought the food back inside the hall so I could continue listening. When Maharaji spoke in the evening, I was spellbound. During the songs after his satsang, I became very emotional, and saw my father in him, mixed with God. As you say, we, and Maharaji, played with very powerful medicine, and we shouldn't have treated it lightly. John.

Subject: I'm sexy, but not sexist. From: Scott T. To: JHB Date Posted: Sat, Mar 02, 2002 at 09:48:44 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: John: I think internalization and projection are settled concepts and are supposed to apply to a lot of situations. In this model though, they establish the two objects because of the chronology, and the essential role of the mother in infancy. But with modern fathers participating much more at that stage of development perhaps the model needs to be expanded. Why couldn't the father contribute to the loving object, for instance? Why is he always the devil? --Scott

Subject: He isn't always the devil From: JHB To: Scott T. Date Posted: Sat, Mar 02, 2002 at 11:35:12 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: In my examples, the second one was seeing my father in Maharaji while I was feeling overwhelming love. I also had a memory while on acid of being a baby and seeing both my mother and father as divine beings with auras, and feeling divine love for them both. Whilst I agree that the feelings towards the mother are probably deeper, I don't think those towards the father are that far behind. John.

Subject: Re: He isn't always the devil From: Scott T. To: JHB Date Posted: Sat, Mar 02, 2002 at 15:28:37 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Right. I forgot that. The Devil or God. Odd that the 'form' is male, but the internal object derives from the female (according to the model). There's a sort of asymmetric equality in the symbolism, that reflects the real world I think.

Subject: Powerful medicine From: Disculta To: JHB Date Posted: Sat, Mar 02, 2002 at 05:52:23 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Scott: thanks a lot for that. Very interesting! JHB: I agree that father stuff is very influential, and mine had everything to do with my attachment to MJ. However, the 'mother' influence is earlier and to a great degree pre-conscious in terms of how we've formed our identities. It seems to affect us on levels of the limbic brain and correlate, as Scott said, with our feelings about life and 'god' itself. I'm really into the excellent book 'A General Theory of Love' which explains a lot about attachment theory, among other things. Something that stands out in my memory is Mary Ainsworth's work, quoted there, about mothering styles. There are 3 kinds: **the mother who picks you up when you want to be picked up and lets you down when you want, statistically proven to produce a more 'secure' child and adult later; ** the ambivalent mother who sometimes is there for you and other times not, who produces an incredibly emotionally confused child/adult ** the lousy mother (as I said this is from memory, and not the right term), who produces a child/adult who has a REALLY hard time... I'm mentioning this, because when I was reading it, I really picked up on the stuff about the ambivalent mother or mothering style, as pertaining to our experience with MJ. It was my experience that he sometimes seemed to care, and at other times didn't give a shit. This basically flummoxed me emotionally to the extent that he dominated my emotional life for 12 years. And I think my personal experience of being ambivalently mothered made me supremely available for this experience, although I agree with Scott that the dynamics get incredibly amplified in a group. It really is/was powerful juju. love ktd

Subject: To Deputy Dog, a celebration for a new morning From: cq To: All Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 07:16:48 (EST) Email Address: planetqwerty@postmaster.co.uk Message: If dogs run free, then why not we Across the swooping plain? My ears hear a symphony Of two mules, trains and rain. The best is always yet to come, That's what they explain to me. Just do your thing, you'll be king, If dogs run free. If dogs run free, why not me Across the swamp of time? My mind weaves a symphony And tapestry of rhyme. Oh, winds which rush my tale to thee So it may flow and be, To each his own, it's all unknown, If dogs run free. If dogs run free, then what must be, Must be, and that is all. True love can make a blade of grass Stand up straight and tall. In harmony with the cosmic sea, True love needs no company, It can cure the soul, it can make it whole, If dogs run free. Bob Dylan, from the 'New Morning' album.

Subject: Thanks cq - my epiphany From: Deputy Dog To: cq Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 10:42:25 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The way I see it, is either the stories about Maharaji on EPO are true, or they are false. If they are false, this site is doing an incredible disservice to a man who is going around the world giving people a beautiful inner experience. If they are true, I don’t see how anyone could continue to follow this man. A few days ago I came to the horrible realisation that the stories are true. Last night I read a chapter from 'A Path with Heart' by Jack Kornfield of the Spirit Rock Centre. (Francesca knows about this group.) The chapter is entitled 'How to Work With Teacher-Community Problems – Honest Questioning.' According to Kornfield, 'Both teachers and communities contribute to areas of misconduct, and both must be part of the solution. The key to understanding these difficulties is awareness. As a first step, this involves an honest questioning. Here are some questions you can use to cut through the delusions of grandeur and spiritual romanticism when they cover serious problems.' The four areas of difficulty are: misuse of power, misuse of money, sexual misconduct, and addiction to alcohol or drugs. Answer these questions for yourself, when you think back to your participation with Maharaji. 1. In the spiritual community, are you asked to violate your own sense of ethical conduct or integrity? 2. Is there are dual standard for the community versus the guru. 3. Are there secrets, rumours of difficulty? 4. Do key members misuse sexuality, money, or power? 5. Are they mostly asking for your money? 6. Are you not allowed to hang out with your old friends? 7. Do you feel dependent or addicted? 8. Is the practice humourless? 9. Does the community have a heaviness and an anti-life feeling about it? 10. Are you asked to believe blindly without being able to see for yourself? 11. Is there something powerful going on that may not really be loving? 12. Is there more focus on the institution and membership than on practices that lead to liberation? 13. Is there a sense of intolerance? 14. When you look at the oldest and most senior students, are they happy and mature? 15. Do they have a place to graduate to, to teach, to express themselves, or are people always kept in the role of students? 16. Do members feel that they are the chosen, the elected ones, the ones who really see better than all the rest of those on earth? 17. Do students vehemently proclaim that theirs in the 'one true way?' 18. Are students allowed to become their own authority? Kornfield goes on to say, 'As a leader of a spiritual community, I have encountered many students who were painfully affected by the misdeeds of their leaders. I have heard such stories about Zen masters, swamis, lamas, meditation teachers, Christian priests, nuns, and everybody in between.' 'When a teacher we have trusted proves to be hypocritical and harmful, it touches the deepest sense of loss and rage in many students. We feel as if we are young children again, re-experiencing divorce or the death of a parent, or our first experience of injustice or betrayal.' 'Disillusionment is an important part of the spiritual path. It is a powerful and fiery gate, one of the purest teachers of awakening, independence, and letting go that we will ever encounter.' 'For some people, disillusionment and difficulty, though very hard, are what they most needed before they could come back to themselves.' Amen.

Subject: So Dog, congradulations, From: Tonette To: Deputy Dog Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 23:59:02 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Can you give us your real name? Tonette

Subject: Thanks DD From: Richard To: Deputy Dog Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 21:07:09 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: As I said below, your story is similar many of us and many more to follow. I acknowledge you for sticking to your view of things until you saw another view that serves you better. I get a lot of wisdom from Kornfield's writing and respect his role of teacher. It may have been he that said a true teacher will have the student's best interest at heart. I think he does that. My wife and I are reading 'After the Ecstasy, The Laundry' to each other. I look forward to hearing more of your progress on the ongoing path of life.

Subject: Amen, Dog-Good points.. From: Jim S. To: Richard Date Posted: Sat, Mar 02, 2002 at 00:05:49 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I appreciate your response. It acknowledges so much of what so many of us hav gone through in waking up to our former masters bullshit. I think this post would make a great 'best of' post for premies who are beginning to wake up, question, and take back their lives....the checklist is excellent... Thank you...

Subject: Who the hell's this Kornfield joker? From: Jim To: Richard Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 22:11:51 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'll bug you with this, Richard, because I've already 'thrown so much crap' at Dog. :) But here's what he posted about Kornfield: According to Kornfield, 'Both teachers and communities contribute to areas of misconduct, and both must be part of the solution. The key to understanding these difficulties is awareness. As a first step, this involves an honest questioning. Here are some questions you can use to cut through the delusions of grandeur and spiritual romanticism when they cover serious problems.' I've looked at Kornfield before and I find him gentle, banal, trite and ultimately irritating. Like who the hell does this guy think he is anyway? Krishnamurti? The anti-guru guru? Any person with half a brain (i.e. not us when we were premies) would see this list as too obvious to even utter. Yet Kornfield has an audience. Oh well. I mean, seriously: The four areas of difficulty are: misuse of power, misuse of money, sexual misconduct, and addiction to alcohol or drugs. Oh, wow. Isn't that something? Pretty much covers any which way people in power screw up although I think the categories are arbitrary and uninteresting. They overlap this way and all can be reduced to the first one but this guy's made Four Noble Truths out of it. Hm, maybe we should all write these books and say these same things back and forth to each other. Why not? It's all true, isn't it? Answer these questions for yourself, when you think back to your participation with Maharaji. 1. In the spiritual community, are you asked to violate your own sense of ethical conduct or integrity? Duh! 2. Is there are dual standard for the community versus the guru. Good work, Sherlock! 3. Are there secrets, rumours of difficulty? My oh my! 4. Do key members misuse sexuality, money, or power? Didn't we already do this? 5. Are they mostly asking for your money? Wow, Jack, I'm so glad I bought your book! 6. Are you not allowed to hang out with your old friends? How insightful! 7. Do you feel dependent or addicted? Did he do this in his sleep? At the gym? Driving to Safeway? Maybe at the checkout in Safeway? 8. Is the practice humourless? This one's wrong, by the way, because, as we all know from personal experience, there's a whole dimension of cult humour that can arise. Only serves those afflicted but it's humour. Bad one, Jack. 9. Does the community have a heaviness and an anti-life feeling about it? Puke! 10. Are you asked to believe blindly without being able to see for yourself? This guy is the master of banality. Look, most of these are all great warning signs for cults. But they're so damn obvious, like I said, and here's another so-called spiritual teacher ingratiating himself with his readers as some sort of wise man for uttering them. Ooooooh, Jack Kornfield, the nice, relateable, chatty, jewish guru. Don't know why Dog bothers when he's already got one (i.e. Ram Dass). 11. Is there something powerful going on that may not really be loving? Sounds like he's going to start talking about 'Good touching / Bad touching'. 12. Is there more focus on the institution and membership than on practices that lead to liberation? Liberation? What's that? Oh you must mean book sales? Well, why didn't you say so? 13. Is there a sense of intolerance? Holy cow, I never thought of THAT one! 14. When you look at the oldest and most senior students, are they happy and mature? Bad! The fact is, the 'oldest and most senior' students could indeed be happy for a number of reasons, none of which are dependable for our purposes. For one thing, these are the in-house survivors. The cult's worked for them and one could expect that they'd look fairly happy with it. Think Mahatma Gurucharanand (that's how I know him). Also, these guys often have a certain status they'll work hard to preserve by presenting as 'happy and mature'. Remember how premies put on those very airs when they became initiators or even esteemed cult adminstrators of one kind or another? Maturity can be affected (as in faked) just like anything else. In a close-system like a cult, the long timers learn all the subtleties of doing it well. Plus, fellow cult members expect them to be mature because that just bodes well for their own progress so they project all sorts of good stuff onto them. Wrong, Kornfield, wrong. 15. Do they have a place to graduate to, to teach, to express themselves, or are people always kept in the role of students? True enough, as Joe and Fran mentioned, but, again, isn't this a bit obvious? 16. Do members feel that they are the chosen, the elected ones, the ones who really see better than all the rest of those on earth? No, Jack, it can't be! Is that kind of stuff really going on? 17. Do students vehemently proclaim that theirs in the 'one true way?' Ditto. 18. Are students allowed to become their own authority? Ditto again. Kornfield goes on to say, 'As a leader of a spiritual community, I have encountered many students who were painfully affected by the misdeeds of their leaders. I have heard such stories about Zen masters, swamis, lamas, meditation teachers, Christian priests, nuns, and everybody in between.' 'When a teacher we have trusted proves to be hypocritical and harmful, it touches the deepest sense of loss and rage in many students. We feel as if we are young children again, re-experiencing divorce or the death of a parent, or our first experience of injustice or betrayal.' 'Disillusionment is an important part of the spiritual path. It is a powerful and fiery gate, one of the purest teachers of awakening, independence, and letting go that we will ever encounter.' What a complete crock of pooh! The guy's as full of it as the next one, only slippier. He's going to earn your trust by commisserating with you about the 'bad' guru that let you down. Now Jack's going to show you how important it was for you to go through this 'fiery gate'. And you guys fall for this? 'For some people, disillusionment and difficulty, though very hard, are what they most needed before they could come back to themselves.' So here it is. You went through that because you needed to because, don't forget, if it weren't for that 'bad' guru, dear student, you never would have found this 'good' one -- me, Jack. And who graduates from his kindergarten, by the way? Come on, this is all false credit to a false teacher. No? Am I wrong? Show me. Maybe I'm just too blind to see how wonderfully helpful this idiot is. Just cynical, materialist 'Baby? What Baby?' Jim. Yeah, that's it.

Subject: Re: Kornfield From: Richard To: Jim Date Posted: Sat, Mar 02, 2002 at 12:27:50 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I've looked at Kornfield before and I find him gentle, banal, trite and ultimately irritating. You could have stopped right there, Jim. If Kornfield's writing doesn't ring your chimes, don't read it. If what he has to say is of no use for you, vote with your feet. Obviously Deputy Dog has benefited in a very positive way from Kornfield's pointers on 'Honest Questioning'. I have also benefited from his written and spoken words. That doesn't mean I worship the guy, send him my hard earned money or care if anyone else takes value from what he has to say. Besides, what does it matter if Dog or anyone else gets benefit from reading Kornfield, the Bible, Dawkins or the back of a cereal box? He said he benefited from what he read and I believe him. I said I benefited from reading one of his books. If you don't believe me or trust my judgement, so be it. It's not my job to defend Jack Kornfield to anyone. But FYI, here's his biography: Jack Kornfield is a psychologist, therapist, author and meditation instructor. He has studied meditation and Buddhism intensively, living as a monk in Thailand, Burma and India. Jack is a founder of Spirit Rock Meditation Center, holds a PhD in clinical Psychology, and is the author of A Path With Heart, and After the Ecstasy, the Laundry. In other words, he has extensive experience from the standpoints of both meditative introspection and the rigorous acedemic scrutiny needed to get a PhD. He's not just making this stuff up as a feel-good fairy tale but has the hard-earned credentials to back up what he says. He has enough experience with teachers and communities to speak with credibility. I've been around Kornfield in a retreat setting and he struck me as knowledgeable, quite humble, a man of integrity and not at all looking for guru status. That's my opinion, for what it's worth.

Subject: Fair comment From: Jim To: Richard Date Posted: Sat, Mar 02, 2002 at 16:36:42 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yes, Richard, I could have said nothing. On the other hand, it's just really tempting to make fun of self-righteous weenies like this guy. Don't you ever feel that way? Anyway, what really got me going beside the banality of it all was thinking that you could get a cult checklist like this only probably better from any ex-cult support group. But they don't try to dress up their advice with bullshit like this: 'Disillusionment is an important part of the spiritual path. It is a powerful and fiery gate, one of the purest teachers of awakening, independence, and letting go that we will ever encounter.' 'For some people, disillusionment and difficulty, though very hard, are what they most needed before they could come back to themselves.' Oh thank you, oh pure teacher of awakening, for giving me the opportunity to experience going through the powerful and fiery gate of disillusionment. I really needed that. Yeah right! As if this guy knows anything about what people need or don't need.

Subject: Sacred Cows From: Richard To: Jim Date Posted: Sat, Mar 02, 2002 at 19:10:39 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: For some people, disillusionment and difficulty, though very hard, are what they most needed before they could come back to themselves. That bit about disillusionment being a gateway actually rang true for me. Many new posters have expressed something similar. As clinical psychologist, I assume that Jack has worked with numerous people who have shown that to be true about themselves. I seriously doubt that he's just making this up for his own pompous ego gratification. He did say 'For some people', so it didn't sound like some grand pronouncement to me. It came off as something he had seen as a trait among people he knew and he was reporting it as such. Sure Jim, I like to slaughter the occassional sacred cow. In fact, the third point in Posties' Four Fold Path is: Sacred Cows Make the Best Hamburgers. I can't recall what the other three are but they'll come to me. But hey, last time I checked, there was a former Satguru running around out there and someone knicknamed Deputy Dog had just told us he's decided to reject said former Satguru. Why pick apart the message that helped Dog arrive at the decision? Now, if Dog or anyone else starts telling us that Kornfield is greater than god, I'll slaughter that cow with you. BTW, I enjoyed your skewering of the "Good Religions" down below. If it makes you feel better, call him Kornflakes. That's what his friends call him to his face and he digs it. Meanwhile, I think he can stand up to the scrutiny. By the way, I just got The Blind Watchmaker and it better by good or you're gonna hear about it fella.

Subject: Hey Richard(Postie),this is good stuff From: secret admirer To: Richard Date Posted: Sun, Mar 03, 2002 at 10:57:37 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I loved the hamburger one.... Would you, or someone, consider compiling a list of great quotes that relate to this awakening and exiting process? It could be really funny, and illuminating and inspiring as well. Seriously, you and some others have come up with some really great quotes and it would be a shame to not showcase them in some sort of EPO category.... Also, nicknames and word-plays are great too....

Subject: You're it! From: Richard/Postie To: secret admirer Date Posted: Sun, Mar 03, 2002 at 13:49:24 (EST) Email Address: richard@rogers-graphics.com Message: Gee, thanks for your nice words. It's intriguing to have a secret admirer. Can you tell us all a little about yourself? It's true, there are so many wonderful, humorous, pithy and wise phrases posted here. If you like some of the quotes you see, save them to a text file for awhile and then share them all with us sometime. I did a similar thing with a Forum Glossary. I was going to repost it for you but can't locate it at the moment. Meanwhile, check out the Best of Forum posts if you've not already done so. My email's above if you want to get in touch. Best of Forum www.ex-premie.org/pages/best.htm

Subject: Re: Sacred Cows From: Jim To: Richard Date Posted: Sat, Mar 02, 2002 at 20:33:01 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Richard, Even Laurie says I went too far this time. Everyone here --- meaning her, I guess, what's my opinion matter? -- agrees. :) So I won't even try to defend myself. I was bad. Jack Kornfield? Why not? Hell, it could have been worse. It could have been Jesus, I guess. Or Wayne Dyer. Marianne Willamson? Aw, who cares anymore? Jeez whiz, it could have been Tony Robbins or Deepak Chopra, let 'em all in. I just talked to an old premie friend of mine who, with her husband, had sold her house in Vancouver a few years ago and opened upa bed and breakfast outside Tuscon. She's in touch with my old girlfriend, the one I'd left the ashram with years ago. Anyway, Nancy, who I spoke with, is completely into Buddhism. Deborah, my ex, is apparently completely into this other guru, someone 'descended' as they say, from Kirpal Singh. Her husband, Steven, is completely into native american spirituality. All those 'completely to's' are accurate and to code. The two women, both ex-premies now, of course, just look back at Maharaji as a 'bad teacher'. Who knows, maybe it's time for me to meet my next teacher. They say that he'll be there when I'm ready. As for the book, Richard, take it back. Nothing but problems. :)

Subject: Thanks, Jim From: Richard To: Jim Date Posted: Sat, Mar 02, 2002 at 20:57:33 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Just to be clear, since waking up from M&K, I've been very guarded about giving power, authority or credit to any so-called teacher. I don't think a capital T teacher is neccessary but learning from many sources is valuable. The problem lies in giving up rational thought in trade for the cure-all. What I refer to as trading the family cow for the magic beans. Who knows, maybe it's time for me to meet my next teacher. They say that he'll be there when I'm ready. Oh, so you assume it'll be a he? How sexist of you Jim. I heard there's an Accessing Your Inner Feminine seminar coming to Victoria so there's hope for you.:) And a big thanks to Laurie. I guess now I owe her that $50 I promised for talking some sense into you. You guys have a great weekend.

Subject: THANK YOU, Richard! [nt] From: Francesca To: Richard Date Posted: Sat, Mar 02, 2002 at 15:03:01 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Genuine happiness and maturity From: Mirror To: Jim Date Posted: Sat, Mar 02, 2002 at 05:30:18 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The fact is, the 'oldest and most senior' students could indeed be happy for a number of reasons, none of which are dependable for our purposes. For one thing, these are the in-house survivors. The cult's worked for them and one could expect that they'd look fairly happy with it. Think Mahatma Gurucharanand (that's how I know him). Also, these guys often have a certain status they'll work hard to preserve by presenting as 'happy and mature'. Remember how premies put on those very airs when they became initiators or even esteemed cult adminstrators of one kind or another? Maturity can be affected (as in faked) just like anything else. In a close-system like a cult, the long timers learn all the subtleties of doing it well. Plus, fellow cult members expect them to be mature because that just bodes well for their own progress so they project all sorts of good stuff onto them. Very good point Jim. When inside the cult, people behave (perhaps partly unconsciously) according to the 'rules'. People do anything to keep up appearances (to themselves or others) by showing that one is 'in'. Therefore a mature and happy attitude can be very misleading indeed. In my view by no means proof of genuine contentment. On the other hand, what is proof of genuine happiness then? If I tell you that I am happy, it is my word against yours if you believe that I am not. Was I unhappy when inside the cult? Actually I don't know. Back then I thought I was, I experienced myself as happy. Is my happiness today more genuine?? I really don't know, these are difficult questions. All I know is that today I do not blame moments of grief and suffering on 'not having practiced enough' or 'not having listened enough'. Mirror

Subject: you're a dog too, Jim From: janet To: Jim Date Posted: Sat, Mar 02, 2002 at 01:28:33 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I suddenly get it, why you are an old friend of Dep, here. You're both dogs. He's the happy go lucky, tail wagging, devoted, adoring kind of dog. He'll trot out and lick the hand of anyone, go for a run to the park, fool around for the sheer joy of it. HE's a grinning dog. You, on the other hand, are a barking dog. A junkyard dog. A dogged dog. Wary, wily, watchful, protective, suspicious, apt to raise your snout and bay at the slightest sniff of untrustworthiness. But since you're a dog, Dep hangs by you anyway. Cause he understands: a dog's just gotta be a dog. and the atheism fits, too: Dog is God spelled backwards. For the argument: here's a group I can think of, where none of the questions Jack posits can be answered in the affirmative, which puts them in the clear as far as whether thay can be trusted as a path with heart: Neale Donald Walsch, and the Conversations with God works. Read em. They'll shake you up.

Subject: Very funny, Janet From: Jim To: janet Date Posted: Sat, Mar 02, 2002 at 11:52:19 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Neale Donald Walsch, and the Conversations with God works. Read em. They'll shake you up. You mean this guy?: Veronica: Can you talk about the part in the book where God said you were one of his messengers? Neale: Yes, well of course, it was made clear to me that we are all messengers of God at some level. People who choose to be messengers at a very high level are even numbering in the thousands on this planet. And so, I don't see myself or view myself as particularly special in this regard, but merely as one of many people on the planet who have chosen themselves. Many are called, but few choose themselves. I am one of many who has chosen himself to accept the responsibility of being a messenger of God. Even as I say those words, it sounds a bit scary if not to say pretentious, and I wish that none of those feelings came up for me, but I am still very much human, and they do. Yet, I will not retreat from the words themselves because I do see that I am that. I think that we all are to the degree that we allow ourselves to be. I believe that we all have the opportunity placed before us to both hear the truth of God and to re-send it or to amplify it if you please, to the rest of those whose lives we touch and through the daily thoughts and words and actions that emanate from us. To that degree we become messengers of God. I don't think that many people are seeing themselves in that way and even of those who do, perhaps many are intimidated from accepting the responsibility. I have done that. I have placed myself in the public eye as a messenger of God in a most extraordinary way and I now stand with the consequence of that, which is that my private life has disappeared completely. It is not very possible to stand up in front of the world and declare oneself to be a messenger of God and not loose one's personal life, especially since this book is being translated into 19 languages around the world. It will be released between now and September in China, Israel, Norway, Sweden, Denmark, France, Germany, Spain, South America, all over the place. Veronica: Did the huge success of the book surprise you? Neale:Well, yes and no. If I could give that kind of an answer. Yes, I think it did surprise me at one level and at another level, when I thought about it more than 20 seconds, I realized that if in fact it was God's intention for this book to touch the world, then it wouldn't surprise me at all, it shouldn't, that it has become such an instant success. And so, yes and no. I think that from a limited physical perspective that I sometimes hold as the personality known as Neale, I was a bit shocked at both the speed and the enormity of its success but from a higher level, when I move to my own highest place of being-ness, I see that it is all perfectly natural and normal for this outcome to have occurred, and for it not to have occurred would have been the surprising thing given God's intentions in the matter. That's hilarious.

Subject: Gee thanks Mr. Warmth! From: Deputy Dog =) To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 23:58:21 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'll bug you with this, Richard, because I've already 'thrown so much crap' at Dog. :) But here's what he posted about Kornfield: According to Kornfield, 'Both teachers and communities contribute to areas of misconduct, and both must be part of the solution. The key to understanding these difficulties is awareness. As a first step, this involves an honest questioning. Here are some questions you can use to cut through the delusions of grandeur and spiritual romanticism when they cover serious problems.' I've looked at Kornfield before and I find him gentle, banal, trite and ultimately irritating. Like who the hell does this guy think he is anyway? Krishnamurti? The anti-guru guru? Any person with half a brain (i.e. not us when we were premies) would see this list as too obvious to even utter. Yet Kornfield has an audience. Oh well. I mean, seriously: The four areas of difficulty are: misuse of power, misuse of money, sexual misconduct, and addiction to alcohol or drugs. Oh, wow. Isn't that something? Pretty much covers any which way people in power screw up although I think the categories are arbitrary and uninteresting. They overlap this way and all can be reduced to the first one but this guy's made Four Noble Truths out of it. Hm, maybe we should all write these books and say these same things back and forth to each other. Why not? It's all true, isn't it? Answer these questions for yourself, when you think back to your participation with Maharaji. 1. In the spiritual community, are you asked to violate your own sense of ethical conduct or integrity? Duh! 2. Is there are dual standard for the community versus the guru. Good work, Sherlock! 3. Are there secrets, rumours of difficulty? My oh my! 4. Do key members misuse sexuality, money, or power? Didn't we already do this? 5. Are they mostly asking for your money? Wow, Jack, I'm so glad I bought your book! 6. Are you not allowed to hang out with your old friends? How insightful! 7. Do you feel dependent or addicted? Did he do this in his sleep? At the gym? Driving to Safeway? Maybe at the checkout in Safeway? 8. Is the practice humourless? This one's wrong, by the way, because, as we all know from personal experience, there's a whole dimension of cult humour that can arise. Only serves those afflicted but it's humour. Bad one, Jack. 9. Does the community have a heaviness and an anti-life feeling about it? Puke! 10. Are you asked to believe blindly without being able to see for yourself? This guy is the master of banality. Look, most of these are all great warning signs for cults. But they're so damn obvious, like I said, and here's another so-called spiritual teacher ingratiating himself with his readers as some sort of wise man for uttering them. Ooooooh, Jack Kornfield, the nice, relateable, chatty, jewish guru. Don't know why Dog bothers when he's already got one (i.e. Ram Dass). 11. Is there something powerful going on that may not really be loving? Sounds like he's going to start talking about 'Good touching / Bad touching'. 12. Is there more focus on the institution and membership than on practices that lead to liberation? Liberation? What's that? Oh you must mean book sales? Well, why didn't you say so? 13. Is there a sense of intolerance? Holy cow, I never thought of THAT one! 14. When you look at the oldest and most senior students, are they happy and mature? Bad! The fact is, the 'oldest and most senior' students could indeed be happy for a number of reasons, none of which are dependable for our purposes. For one thing, these are the in-house survivors. The cult's worked for them and one could expect that they'd look fairly happy with it. Think Mahatma Gurucharanand (that's how I know him). Also, these guys often have a certain status they'll work hard to preserve by presenting as 'happy and mature'. Remember how premies put on those very airs when they became initiators or even esteemed cult adminstrators of one kind or another? Maturity can be affected (as in faked) just like anything else. In a close-system like a cult, the long timers learn all the subtleties of doing it well. Plus, fellow cult members expect them to be mature because that just bodes well for their own progress so they project all sorts of good stuff onto them. Wrong, Kornfield, wrong. 15. Do they have a place to graduate to, to teach, to express themselves, or are people always kept in the role of students? True enough, as Joe and Fran mentioned, but, again, isn't this a bit obvious? 16. Do members feel that they are the chosen, the elected ones, the ones who really see better than all the rest of those on earth? No, Jack, it can't be! Is that kind of stuff really going on? 17. Do students vehemently proclaim that theirs in the 'one true way?' Ditto. 18. Are students allowed to become their own authority? Ditto again. Kornfield goes on to say, 'As a leader of a spiritual community, I have encountered many students who were painfully affected by the misdeeds of their leaders. I have heard such stories about Zen masters, swamis, lamas, meditation teachers, Christian priests, nuns, and everybody in between.' 'When a teacher we have trusted proves to be hypocritical and harmful, it touches the deepest sense of loss and rage in many students. We feel as if we are young children again, re-experiencing divorce or the death of a parent, or our first experience of injustice or betrayal.' 'Disillusionment is an important part of the spiritual path. It is a powerful and fiery gate, one of the purest teachers of awakening, independence, and letting go that we will ever encounter.' What a complete crock of pooh! The guy's as full of it as the next one, only slippier. He's going to earn your trust by commisserating with you about the 'bad' guru that let you down. Now Jack's going to show you how important it was for you to go through this 'fiery gate'. And you guys fall for this? 'For some people, disillusionment and difficulty, though very hard, are what they most needed before they could come back to themselves.' So here it is. You went through that because you needed to because, don't forget, if it weren't for that 'bad' guru, dear student, you never would have found this 'good' one -- me, Jack. And who graduates from his kindergarten, by the way? Come on, this is all false credit to a false teacher. No? Am I wrong? Show me. Maybe I'm just too blind to see how wonderfully helpful this idiot is. Just cynical, materialist 'Baby? What Baby?' Jim. Yeah, that's it. --- Don't you find it bizarre that you mention the word 'irritating' in a lot of your posts. Hey, I've got it! Maybe you should write a book. Yeah, that would teach those bastards a lesson. But wait a minute, it couldn't be that you want to be our guru, could it Jim? No. No, no that would be jealousy. You just want to help us, right? Yeah that's it. And I didn't quite get that 'Baby, What Baby' part at the end of your post. Could you explain that? =) P. S. It was Alan Watts that gave me my start, not Ram Dass. So blame him.

Subject: You're welcome From: Jim To: Deputy Dog =) Date Posted: Sat, Mar 02, 2002 at 00:27:45 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I just hear a CBC interview with an Alberta politician who's brought a private member's bill to declare the square dance the official dance of Alberta. It was bizarre as the guy had no sense of humour. The show host just kept trying to make these light litle jokes and the poor guy just couldn't get it. That has nothing to do with this. Dog, the baby comment was as in throwing out with the bathwater. Anyway, I just hate gurus. I hate the institution. I laboured under a guru for years and, yeah, I don't like them. Even the soft, little bunny rabbit ones. But what about my criticisms? Valid or not? Explain.

Subject: you didnt intelligently discuss From: janet To: Jim Date Posted: Sat, Mar 02, 2002 at 02:03:44 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jim, those weren't criticisms. Read your piece again. You used mockery, rhetoric, confidence techniques, ad hominem ridicule, but nowhere in all of that did you sit down to a serious, thoughtful, brain- using discussion of the substance of any of them. You haven't set anything out on the table for us to even begin to debate! Let me see if I can make this clearer. Try this: Try extracting just your responses, without the quotes of Jack Kornfeld, and listing them separately. Now--taking just your list of retorts: there is nothing substantial there, which would give anyone anything to think on, mull over, consider or refute or have an opinion about. There is nothing specific there! YOur remarks could be about anything! In truth, they are woefully inarticulate. You could be ridiculing a sportscaster. You could be making fun of a member of parliament. You could be heckling your neighbor over the fence! There is nothing to address. You don't present any thesis with which to take up! If you have some thinking man's criticisms of Jack Kornfeld's statements, don't you think it ought to be identifiable in your text that it is Jack Kornfeld's ideas with which you want to take issue, and why? If you have nothing to say, then why say anything? What, if anything, useful, did you have to say about this? I don't see anything! The man wrote the book out of a sense of probably seeing the tremendous number of people out there who are being taken advantage of, some of them unable to think in the savagely analytical way that you have been taught to, in law school... ok. gotta back up. ya see, Jim, a goodly number of the normal population just responds to life exactly as it reaches them. They don't calculate, they don't manipulate, they don't suspect or analyze or angle for anything--they just take life how it hits them. theyre honest. they're unassuming. they're ordinary. theyre sympathetic. they trust. they believe what they hear, see, feel, think. some of them are even naive [gasp]. Know what? they arent to be scorned. they arent to be mocked and made fun of. they are being their natural selves, as they are meant to be. people get to be suspicious , untrusting, cagey, wily, defensive and dissembling by being betrayed. by being burned. being open is not the crime. deceiving another is the crime. unlike you, Jack is moving to address those honest, unassuming people who are ordinary and trusting, who hear stuff that sounds good--and they want to do something good-- and he's speaking to them where they live, giving them plain help to sort out the bad from the worthy BEFORE they have to get betrayed. and he's also helping the betrayed sort out how to go on, to pick up the pieces, without having their bad experience ruin for the rest of their lives their hopes of what they still wanted to do, to be, to accomplish, to help with. Some people, believe it or not, don't want to carry around a chip on their shoulder in bitterness the rest of their life. Some people don't view the world as an adversarial contest, in which they have to always win, by giving the other guy a loss! And someone has to look out for them, since they don't know, going into it, that not everyone is as good hearted and believing and trusting as they are. I wouldn't call that something to mock and ridicule and make fun of. Strange, that you, do.

Subject: Re: you didnt intelligently discuss From: gerry To: janet Date Posted: Sun, Mar 03, 2002 at 14:39:46 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Actually Jim's remarks gave me pause, as I am one of the people who might have fallen for this guy and his 'fiery gate.' Not now of course, but maybe two years ago. I find Jim's remarks a breath of fresh air, actually. ya see, Jim, a goodly number of the normal population just responds to life exactly as it reaches them. Is this a good thing? I don't think so. They don't calculate, they don't manipulate, they don't suspect or analyze or angle for anything--they just take life how it hits them. Yeah, and they watch 6.2 hours of TeeVee each day and have the functional literacy of a twelve year old and most never have an original thought their entire lives. What a thing to aspire to, sheesh. These 'qualities' you mention are exactly what most people must struggle against (or should) in order to have an examined life worth living. they're honest. they're unassuming. they're ordinary. theyre sympathetic. they trust. they believe what they hear, see, feel, think. some of them are even naive [gasp]. We call these people loosers.:) Seriously, you don't recommend that people cultivate these sterling qualities, do you? Surely you analyse and manipulate your environment just a bit, don't you? Taking life as it hits you sure sounds like a passive approach to me.

Subject: Nothing else needed saying From: Jim To: janet Date Posted: Sat, Mar 02, 2002 at 16:22:26 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Kornfield's checklist was, in my opinion, a combination of trite and wrong. The trite I pointed out and no, there's nothing much to add to that. It's trite. Obvious. Like, duh! The wrong I commented on but you failed to comment on that, didn't you?

Subject: Thanks janet, I wish I'd said that [nt] From: Deputy Dog =) To: janet Date Posted: Sat, Mar 02, 2002 at 16:08:48 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Woof From: PatD To: Deputy Dog Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 21:00:37 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'Disillusionment is an important part of the spiritual path. It is a powerful and fiery gate, one of the purest teachers of awakening, independence, and letting go that we will ever encounter.' As Madame de Monthalont(sp) said to Voltaire...'the worst thing you can do to anyone is to destroy their illusions'. Just so you've got both sides of the picture. Welcome to ambiguity,& love on the small scale. All the best: Pat Dorrity,Stratford-upon-Avon,England.

Subject: Re: Thanks cq - my epiphany From: Joe To: Deputy Dog Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 19:44:25 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Very interesting list. This one really jumped out at me: Do they have a place to graduate to, to teach, to express themselves, or are people always kept in the role of students? This is one of the most regressive things about Maharaji. If he were a true teacher, he would be encouraging people to grow and move on, because there is only so much he can teach them. Instead, they remain students, children really, in their relationship to Maharaji for their entire lives. This is so unhealthy. And, if anything, over the years premies have had less ways to express themselves except to give Maharaji devotion and money. They can't even give satsang anymore, for example. They just sit and listen, worship and give money. Period. Total childish regression.

Subject: Re: Thanks cq - my epiphany From: Mirror To: Joe Date Posted: Sat, Mar 02, 2002 at 08:44:49 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I felt the same response Joe. It was a totally new reality, a bit scary at first, to discover that I was my masters' equal. That the only difference between us was that I had decided to put him on a pedestal at some point in time. It was only after EPO that I realized that I am not even his equal, but even a much better and more honerable human being than he is. Mirror

Subject: Total, childish regression From: Disculta To: Joe Date Posted: Sat, Mar 02, 2002 at 05:35:54 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yes, exactly Joe. The amazing thing is that, in the early days, the opportunity to give satsang was actually quite empowering. I definitely remember times when MJ was just a photo on the altar, but the real thing that was happening was in the room with the premies. And although we were spouting partial bullshit, we were at least expressing something and sharing a certain energy that was at times quite uplifting. I can't imagine for the life of me what there could be for anyone in the post-premie-satsang era. love ktd

Subject: Disculta,here's the payoff...kinda From: La-ex To: Disculta Date Posted: Sat, Mar 02, 2002 at 16:39:52 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'I can't imagine for the life of me what there could be for anyone in the post-premie-satsang era'.... Good point, but here is what the payoff is these days for those church ladies who continue to endeavor to be good premies... It's not so much about what 'good stuff' you might get for being a premie, but what 'bad stuff' you might avoid by 'hanging in there', and not leaving the perfect master. Remember two important things: 1)To most premies,m is still the 'perfect master',with whatever connotations that might bring up... 2)A double negative might equal a positive. In other words,if in staying, you can avoid something bad, that might be considered good. A few of the reasons for staying: 1)It's still a comfortable thing to do, with some social connections that are nice to stay up with, either locally, or at large programs. For some people, it's easier to just let the whole thing gradully fade away,rather than rock the boat of their own carefully guarded concepts. Those concepts are the umbilical cord to the perfect master-why cut them by thinking, when you have been conditoned for 20-30 years to NOT think? As one premie told me about the Dettmers revelations: 'It's simple...if I don't think about it, I'm OK...besides, I won't believe it until m says it himself....who do I trust more?-M or Dettmers?...... 2)Avoid guilt possibly felt by leaving the perfect master. Remember, you promised your life to him, and he's still around. Are YOU going to refuse GOD? 3)It's insurance, to stay around,'just in case'. As wacky as that seems, many religious people have told me the same thing about their religion. They don't necessarily believe it all, but it costs nothing,or very little, to BELIEVE. (Little do they know, how much it DOES cost to BELIEVE) And just suppose it IS true, won't you be glad that you stayed? 4)A chance to possibly be around the big guy, in the inner circle. This is an extremely powerful idea...most premies have never been around m, and they are very curious about what it would be like. Gurus love to create this vacuum around them, and premies are drawn to it, until they realize that like all vacuums, it is completely empty. The fascination is always there, and a good guru can milk it for all it's worth. This also creates a power over those in the 'inner circle' to obey in order to not get kicked out, when they know there are numerous others waiting in line to take their place. 5)Staying, even marginally, is SO much easier than leaving.If you leave, you have to do some serious soul searching. If you stay, even though you don't realy buy into it completely, you don't have to rock your concept boat. One friend of mine said this-- 'All I have to do is put in one hour a week at the hall, and nobody bugs me'....he never once noted how bizarre that sounded, which bings up the next point: 6)There is a deep,deep seated fear of leaving that most premies have been conditioned for 20-30 years to accept. They believe that their life would be worse if they left, rather than better. The believe that 'the mind' would swallow them up and destroy them. This is not talked about too much, but it is still a premie belief for many. Also, most premies I know don't come close to practicing for an hour per day, so they put in their 10-15 minutes, go to a video once every week or two, and are still 'on the team'. 7)Many premies are still waiting for m to 'manifest his work', or 'reveal himself'. They are still hoping that m will finally get it together, and do what he promised to do. Currently there are 2 major beliefs that EV is 'leaking' to the premies: a)Maybe m is human, after all. They don't say what that might be, but it serves to cushion the blow when rank and file premies begin to hear some of the stuff on EPO. b)EV is actually telling city contacts that the people around m, from DLM to EV, have always kept people in the dark, and manipulated things. Of course, m is not to be implicated, and the blame is placed precisely where it should be-on the shoulders of the poor premie. This concept dovetails rather nicely with the current 'EV downsizing'--m can imply that the 'downsizing' is not because faith is eroding and donations are drying up, but because it is a necessary 'housecleaning' that will now FINALLY let him 'manifest' his 'unique vision'. The dysfunction is hard to come to terms with. The poor premie who gave their life completely to m is blamed for m's inability to succeed. Many of them are way behind in life, with little savings, little career, little relationship experience,a cheap apartment, a beat up old car, and not much in the way of self-confidence or self-esteem. M tells them they have failed, and failed him. They have not experienced the happiness he promised them, and they believe it is still 'just around the corner' if only they would 'get off the fence', and really practice more. If you really belive that M provides the key to happiness, it is SO easy for him to continue to guilt trip you into staying...after all, who can ever say they have enough happiness, or couldn't be just a bit happier? I think this is why EPO is so incredibly threatening to M. For the first time, the average premie who has been so easily manpulated, may finaly see through the facade, and see that M doesn't have the spiritual contenment or happiness he talks about, and that they are better off putting their sincerity elsewhere. I think that most of the reasons for staying these days, are not for positive reasons, but simply to avoid negative, or perceived negative consequences. EPO is brewing the coffee for premies to smell. When they do wake up and smell the coffee, they may just decide that M is not their 'cup of tea' (or coffee). Time for me to have mine. Have a great weekend.

Subject: Re: Disculta,here's the payoff...kinda From: Livia To: La-ex Date Posted: Sun, Mar 03, 2002 at 08:28:33 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: That was abslutely brilliant, la-Ex and just about said it all. I'm printing it out to distribute to a couple of 'drifting' friends. Thanks a million. With love, Livia

Subject: Now that's a BEST OF FORUM** From: Francesca :~) To: La-ex Date Posted: Sat, Mar 02, 2002 at 21:42:16 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Put quite well. I have heard the 'cheap insurance' argument myself when some of my relatives stayed in the church they were raised in for several more years that they really had to, rather than think about it and decide whether or not to walk. With M, the cost is steep. Bests, F

Subject: ***Fantastic Post La-X*** From: Deborah To: La-ex Date Posted: Sat, Mar 02, 2002 at 17:54:28 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi La-X, It's nice to see your posts again. What an elaboration! This is a post that should be available for new people to read. I mean it. You nailed it, dude. Some of the stuff was actually new to me, although not surprising ;) EV is actually telling city contacts that the people around m, from DLM to EV, have always kept people in the dark, and manipulated things. They are covering their ass and conditioning the ears of the city officials. So when the news hits, it will sound old and familiar. EV is probably morphing into a spin machine to affect all media. Unless the ex-premies understand what M is trying to do, they won't be able to combat it. One must think like them, second guess their moves, and be pro-active. M is restructuring the look of the cult in anticipation of media speculation. The longer people wait to inform public, the more difficult it will become. Why? It won't look the same as the allegations of the ex-premies. It's hard to convict someone of past doings. If M could be fingered today, it would upset the applecart he's arrainging. cheers, deborah, who's going for a coffee herself right now

Subject: DD's epiphany-BEST OF FORUM From: Marianne To: Deputy Dog Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 14:55:02 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: DD: Thanks for sharing with us what it was that finally pushed you over the edge. Jack Kornfield's questions and comments outline the criticisms and concerns that we have been discussing for years with respect to M/EV. I suppose it took a disinterested but insightful third party to put this all in perspective for you. Hopefully your transformation, and what caused it, will be just as helpful to lurking and fence sitting premies. Congratulations again. Marianne

Subject: Yes, yes, REALLY A BEST From: Francesca :~) To: Marianne Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 19:51:51 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dog, this is a great list. The one that Joe pointed out about always being students and never being able to graduate or teach jumped out at me too, but there were many others. I forgot about that list. I saw it published somewhere, perhaps in the journal Inquiring Mind, because I haven't read that book. Powerful stuff. Great epiphany. peace and love, Francesca

Subject: Yes, good on you, Poochie From: PatC To: Francesca :~) Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 20:17:23 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: But I'll save my BEST OF FORUM kudos for when you write a great post in your own words. I don't care how spiritual it might be - I'm just so happy for you that you are now standing on your own two feet. Good luck.

Subject: Re: Yes, good on you, Poochie From: Deputy Dog To: PatC Date Posted: Sat, Mar 02, 2002 at 00:07:16 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Pat, I don't write in my own words. I prefer to plagiarize because I find other people so much more interesting. We do have something in common however. Even though I was born in England, like you, I was raised in Africa.

Subject: Holy Cow, Poochie! From: PatC To: Deputy Dog Date Posted: Sat, Mar 02, 2002 at 04:40:12 (EST) Email Address: pdconlon@hotmail.com Message: I don't know if you've noticed, but I've definitely heard a little laugh in your voice and whole lot more balls. That massa ''fixed'' all us dawgs good. Your sense of humor - well, actually I never even knew you had one. You were always so damn pious and serious. Welcome to the fun-house, fella. Do you want some Doggy Darshan? Maybe Thelma made the Doggy Darshan web page specially for you. And email me any time you want and I don't even care if you do it incognito because I want to find out where in Africa and you may not want to say that here. If we met in real life there would be instant rapport just because of that alone and you probably know what I mean - nothing quite like an African childhood. Did you ever eat a live flying termite on a dare just because the Africans did?

Subject: Stick People... Why are They Extinct? OT From: Richard To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Feb 28, 2002 at 22:38:51 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Enjoy this totally off topic bit of naughty mirth. It's on me! Burn baby burn! Richard, feeling silly as I turn 54 today Stick People... Why are They Extinct? www.teamhouse.tni.net/stickpeople1.html

Subject: Happy Belated B-Day...gee you're old...:) From: Cynthia To: Richard Date Posted: Sat, Mar 02, 2002 at 17:23:51 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Happy Birthday Richard! Hope it had better results than those stick people...oh. Yeah. You're still here...never mind... You old fart! Gawd, you look 45! Love, Cynthia

Subject: Thanks Cynthia From: Richard To: Cynthia Date Posted: Sat, Mar 02, 2002 at 19:18:29 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks, Cynthia. I think. Like my dear 95 year old dad says when I ask how he's doing: Every day I wake up is a really good day! I do feel pretty good. When I had a physical in September, I was told I had the heart of a 30 year old and the prostate of an 18 year old. Hope those guys don't miss the parts. :)

Subject: Like I said Richard... From: Cynthia To: Richard Date Posted: Sat, Mar 02, 2002 at 21:47:45 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Richard, You don't look 54, I was shocked when you revealed that. Jeezum crow, you must have good genes with a Dad who's 95 and a prostate that's 18. A heart that's 30. Christ, you'll be bringing in the next new millennium! Living well, as they say... Love, Cynthia

Subject: Happy Birthday Postie From: PatD To: Richard Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 21:17:03 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: from ex-Bin Liner.

Subject: The consequences of internal friction. From: Scott T. To: Richard Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 18:01:00 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Rich: I've often wondered why we don't see them around any more. What a pity. Happy Boy Day. I wish I was still 54. Oh wait... I am! --Scott

Subject: Re: The consequences of internal friction. From: janet To: Scott T. Date Posted: Sat, Mar 02, 2002 at 02:15:48 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: oh nuts. here I thought you were going to wax philosophic on some tratise dealing with the theories of ingniting a fire in the belly, or cognitive dissonance leading to a consuming drive to rectify the imbalances, or kindling some kind of passion to illuminate the world...and all you put up was a plain old birthday well wishig. shoot. I was so ready for it... sigh. I am shocked, Richard. I didn't know you were OLDER than me! And I never knew you're a Pisces. Can I do your astrological chart? Just for interest? date, birthtime, place of birth? reply to mensabrains@webtv.net

Subject: Many happy returns, oldster:) [nt] From: Dermot To: Richard Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 14:53:44 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: You're lookin' good . . . From: Pullaver To: Richard Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 13:08:05 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Happy Birthday Richard. I enjoy your level-headed and down-to-earth posts. And let's face it, no long-haired hippie looked more beatific standing next to the Lord of the Universe.

Subject: Thanks, Pullaver From: Richard To: Pullaver Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 14:07:07 (EST) Email Address: richard@rogers-graphics.com Message: Well, thanks a lot Pullaver. It's good to be able to take full credit for the good words you've heaped on me and not defer them to Grace or some such foolishness. The photo was taken just after I first saw GMJ at the Montrose guru puja in 1972. Close encounters of the darshan kind. There was a sweet innocence I felt about the world then that is still part of me today. But I'm older and wiser these 30 years on with an open heart and also a descriminating mind. It was fun to play the game of devotee to the living Satguru. Too bad M perveted all that for his own wealth and self-agrandizement. As Lil Darlin' said awhile back, what might have been could have been good. He could have, say in 1976 when he told Mishler he would, come clean and led us idealistic hippies in serving humanity. But nooooooooooooo! Pullaver, drop me an email if you want to chat off forum. I keep anonymity. Montrose 64.45.46.159/photo/rrmontrose.jpg

Subject: Happy Birthday for yesterday From: PatC To: Richard Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 03:41:48 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: May you have many many more and thanks for the laugh. No wonder you're so silly - you're only 54, a mere baby.

Subject: Mere baby? From: Richard To: PatC Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 14:16:00 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks Pat, but are you saying you are older? I'll alert the media about this shocking development.

Subject: Re: Mere baby? From: PatC To: Richard Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 14:31:39 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'm a whole year older than you, Richard, and, after 50, a year takes a big toll. I've had to stop plucking the gray hairs out of my eyebrows or else there won't be any left. I've resigned myself to bushy white eyebrows and am starting to look like Einstein. It's a shock to look in the mirror ervery morning after spending the night dreaming that I am 21.

Subject: Dreaming, PatC? From: Richard To: PatC Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 14:47:56 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: PatC, you're not a 55 year old man with bushy white eyebrows. You're really a butterfly dreaming you're a 55 year old man with bushy white eyebrows. Feel better now?

Subject: So, you see that too? Bless you! [nt] From: PatC To: Richard Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 14:56:12 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: PS Marjie's obituary on Chit Chat forum From: PatC To: PatC Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 15:27:05 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Guru Mahamarji Now Ascended Master www.geocities.com/cmsjourney/mahamarji/marjmem.htm Richard, I thought you'd be interested since you sent me such kind condolences by email.

Subject: OH PAT!I DIDNT KNOW!!! From: janet To: PatC Date Posted: Sat, Mar 02, 2002 at 02:59:29 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Oh how sad.... why didnt you tell me? last week must have been some kind of acute point for pet emotions. I had another episode with Merlyn, our thousand dollar kittie. I was trying hard to put off taking her in for another surgery, since she had just topped out and reached full recovery from the one at christmas-- but she came into heat and my son let her get out one night laswt week, against strict orders not to let it happen, and then I had to agonize over whether the little darling conceived while out there. So yesterday with much trepidation, it was back to the vet for a followup exam and a discussion about her arrested size, her genetic inbreeding, her future health and survival, ending with the summary and emotional surrender of letting them take her overnight to be spayed. by the time i got back home at 5 pm, the house was way too silent. 5 other cats, and no life. Merr is the live wire of the house, and with her not there, it was like a tomb, a museum. I couldnt stand it. I called the vet, just to ask how she was, and found out to my surprise that they had just finished spaying her moments before. Same timing happened with her other surgery. How connected is that? I made myself sick last night, lying awake thinking about her. Woke up exhausted in a daze. Went back to get her this afternoon, afraid she'd be laid out like she was after the first surgery-- no at all! The kid was full of life. got out of her box in the exam room, ran around, playing chase, climbed the chair upholstry, tried to climb up the mounted photos on the walls, ducked and dodged and eluded me under the table and chair, PURRING LOUDLY THE WHOLE TIME. gee. i wish i could sport about like that after having major internal organs removed... i took the funnel collar off her after watchng her bash her fave into things repeatedly, and instead fashioned a body suit out of a stockinette bandage to keep her from touching her belly stitches--and then watched her get fouled up in the bandage and lie there, immobile, still purring but stuck. on the taxi ride home, i set her up on the seat back so she could see out the windows. she was fascinated to see so much of the world going by so fast. got home and let her out, and she tore up the stairs in her little suit, and promptly ran around checking to see if everything was the way she left it. [we cleaned for her homecoming]. I thought she would want to rest, but noooooo. ran around hyper for hours. finally sank into a nap around nine pm. but she's up again as i write this--she's lapping water out of a vase i keep in the window for looks. it's clean-sort of. she needs water, so I guess I'll wash it out and keep it filled from my bedside bottle. just so long as she drinks from somewhere. Pat, Marji's life story reminds me very much of a book by Tuesday Lobsang Rampa, the onetime tibetan monk, titled 'living with the Lama'. If you see it, buy it and read it. It never ceases to stun me what people do to animals. Merr's grandma was found in a dumpster as a kitten, in a box, with her lower jaw kicked sideways.

Subject: Lobsang Rampa From: Dermot To: janet Date Posted: Sat, Mar 02, 2002 at 15:02:00 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: He was never actually a monk....and I don't think he ever went to Tibet. He was from South London....I think he was a butcher or something like that. He wrote a series of books, including 'Living with the Lama'. His books were a mixture of fiction and outright lies. I think he did make a lot of money from his books though. When I was about 12 or 13 I used to read all his books avidly. His big thing was astral projection and his magical cats and stuff like that. When I was about 14 or 15 I discovered more about him and realised his baloney. I think he used to pop round to the British library and research all sorts of stuff about Tibet and Tibetan Buddhism. He's like the English version off Carlos Casenada I guess. Or the other way round really, as 'Lobsang' was around a little before Carlos. Cheers Dermot

Subject: Slight correction From: Dermot To: Dermot Date Posted: Sat, Mar 02, 2002 at 17:43:59 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: My memory failed me....he was from Devon not South London. Neither was he a butcher.....the son of a plumber but I don't know what he did prior to being an author. I found this little bit of info on him from the museum of hoaxes website. Cheers Dermot Tuesday Lobsang Rampa www.museumofhoaxes.com/thirdeye.html

Subject: Re: Slight correction From: bolly shri To: Dermot Date Posted: Sat, Mar 02, 2002 at 20:49:53 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: lapsang souchang surely who said lets have a nice cup of tea, it makes everything seem much better. Sorry no thats me just going to make one now There's too much on this site for the technologically challenged but absolutely hooked ex. Thank you guys for keeping it going bolly shri

Subject: Hi bolly shri From: PatC To: bolly shri Date Posted: Sun, Mar 03, 2002 at 03:49:06 (EST) Email Address: pdconlon@hotmail.com Message: You said: ''There's too much on this site for the technologically challenged but absolutely hooked ex.'' What a nice intro you made. I'm a firm believer in charming intros but have never pulled one off yet. Welcome. Have fun. And after you get the hang of it, you won't be technologically challenged but time challenged. Also it's hard on us wpm-challenged hunt and peck typists. If you want to post something long and important (and I'm hoping you will) it's best to do it in a wordprocessor and then copy and paste it in here in case something goes wrong. Patrick Conlon, San Francisco.

Subject: Thanks Dermot. Now I remember. Hoax all right [nt] From: PatC To: Dermot Date Posted: Sat, Mar 02, 2002 at 19:05:08 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Just when I think how cute..... From: PatC To: janet Date Posted: Sat, Mar 02, 2002 at 04:54:46 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ....you have to lob something horrible in there like your last sentence. I prefer not to think about it but I know you were right to mention it. All of our dogs were abused before they came to us. Marjie had actually been sexually abused by the homeless guy - enough to really screw her up emotionally. It took nearly a year to iron out her fear and loathing of being touched. It's been a long time since I heard the name Lobsang Rampa. I think I read a famous book by him when I was a kid. I'll check out the one you mentioned but I've got a sneaking suspicion that it's cross between a fairy tale and Khalil Gibran.

Subject: Re: PS Marjie's obituary From: Richard To: PatC Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 20:24:41 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: What an amazing memorial. Marjie was so very lucky to have such good parents and playmates as you guys obviously were for her. As I shared with you by email, I also grieved when each of my two cats died last year. But the gift they left behind was a greater capacity for me to love humans. Great masters, indeed.

Subject: Now I feel guilty, Richard From: PatC To: Richard Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 20:27:07 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Sorry I mixed Marjie's memorial with your birthday thread. I thought only you would make a comment since we talked about it yesterday.

Subject: Please don't, PatC From: Richard To: PatC Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 20:42:09 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Please don't feel guilty Pat. Sharing a thread with Marjie is my honor. Plus maybe now I can stop feeling pathetic about calling attention to my own birthday on a chat room for goodness sake. ;) Just kidding. Had to do it myself now that Birthday Goddess has retired. And I consider this forum part of my global community so why not spread the news? Thanks to everyone for all the good wishes.

Subject: I hope people don't think Marjie is Rawat From: PatC To: Richard Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 21:33:44 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: .....and start celebrating. :C) Well, I'm going to announce my own birthday too. So there. Thanks, Richard.

Subject: Marjie Rawat? Never! From: Cynthia To: PatC Date Posted: Sat, Mar 02, 2002 at 17:33:00 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Pat, Marjie gave good darshan. Good doggie darshan. I've always said that. If anyone thinks you would lower her status as a good darshan giver by equating her with Rawat, well, they're nuts. Grieving for a lost pet is good. I lost two this year. Now I have only one cat left (for the time being) and she is adapting very well. She is so smart, loves to be the center of attention. She has a little basket of toys which she digs into for fun. Thing is, she also puts her toys away--right back into the basket. She's the smartest kitty in the universe. All your four-leggeds are fortunate to have all three of you loving them. It's more than some kids get. Don't forget that. Love, Cynthia

Subject: Thanks, Cynthia - now you make me feel guilty From: PatC To: Cynthia Date Posted: Sat, Mar 02, 2002 at 19:09:49 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You said: ''All your four-leggeds are fortunate to have all three of you loving them. It's more than some kids get. Don't forget that.'' I know I lavish love on dogs which would benefit disadvantaged kids more. I always wanted to adopt lots of kids but it is not a sensible option for us given society's mistrust of fags. Even working with kids is tricky given the current atmosphere.

Subject: Pat, Don't Feel Guilty... From: Cynthia To: PatC Date Posted: Sun, Mar 03, 2002 at 11:06:18 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Pat, Don't feel guilty for others' smallness of mind and attitude. And I wasn't implying you should be lavishing love on kids rather than dogs. People are cruel about gays. I hate that shit. But that's not what I was talking about... That tribute to Marjie made me feel very happy for her rescue and life with you guys, that's all... Love, Cynthia

Subject: Pat this is lovely From: Francesca To: PatC Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 19:03:46 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I've taken the liberty of sending it to a few friends. She was fearless, she was. Francesca

Subject: Chuck did it, Francesca From: PatC To: Francesca Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 19:33:43 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It turned out to be a very healing thing for us. We all had a good cry and purged the sorrow. Yes, she was fearless. I guess she had faced death, disease and disaster so often that even one moment of peace and pleasure was enough for her.

Subject: Beautiful Memorial From: JHB To: PatC Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 18:17:58 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thank you Pat. That was very touching. John.

Subject: Re: Beautiful Memorial From: PatC To: JHB Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 18:51:25 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks, John. I think I finally figured out what eulogies are for. It's way of turning the grief into joy by praising the dead.

Subject: Re: Beautiful Memorial From: Dermot To: PatC Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 19:32:13 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: That's true Pat......and your little doggie had a rough start but had some really good last 6 years by the sound of it. Love to love the love that loves.

Subject: Happy Birthday Richard !! From: MoleynNige To: PatC Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 14:04:05 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Very funny!! Lang may yer lum reek (ie long may yer chimney smoke) - but hopefully not catch fire ;)

Subject: What language pray tell? From: Richard To: MoleynNige Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 14:18:43 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks you two. Hope you're burning up yer neck o' the woods. Is Lang may yer lum reek Welsh, ancient Celt or ...?

Subject: Happy belated birthday, Postie From: Marianne To: Richard Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 15:01:24 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Happy birthday, Richard. The stick people are very funny. So are you! You're a good, positive force around here. I hope you enjoyed yourself yesterday. Also, I have to agree with Pullaver's comments about your appearance in that photo next to the former Satguru. That's one of those famous ones, seen around the world. Many happy returns, Marianne

Subject: Thanks Marianne From: Richard To: Marianne Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 17:00:06 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Gee, with such kind words and glowing praise, I think I'll stick around. Thanks, you're a doll. As to the photo, it's what you don't see that is revealing. Just imagine how angry GMJ must have been when we held him while Bihari Singh dressed him up in Indian garb. Then we forced him to sit there while we sang arti to him in Hindi and smeared tilak on his forehead. Oh the poor man has suffered enough at the hands of us concept crazed hippies, don't you think? Postie

Subject: LOL, Richard [nt] From: PatC To: Richard Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 19:38:45 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Heh heh heh! From: Flitting Disculta To: PatC Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 20:34:08 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Happy birthday Richard Darling. I'll e-mail you soon. Yer a doll! Condolences Pat, Chuck and co! What a fantastic tale! What an adorable dog! love ktd

Subject: I wish you'd stay for a while, Sweetie Darling [nt] From: PatC To: Flitting Disculta Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 20:40:00 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Children Raised In a Cult From: TV Guide To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Feb 28, 2002 at 16:44:22 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Montel Williams is currently hosting a show devoted to children raised in cults and the henious conditions, abuses that were inflicted upon them.

Subject: Re: Children Raised In a Cult From: Scott T. To: TV Guide Date Posted: Sat, Mar 02, 2002 at 10:04:33 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I saw that show. He only had two guests. One was a woman named 'Melody' who was raised in the Krishna cult. The other was a woman raised in a 'garage' or neighborhood cult that had only a few members. Sounds like the second one was worse, altough there was a lot of child sexual abuse in the Krishna cult. She seemed to think it was a function of the fact that they believed all sexual activity to be equally sinful. Given the power of natural sexual impulses I can see how having that sort of value set could contribute to some pretty wierd behavior. I'm just glad they didn't put anything besides sugar in the food. Or did they? --Scott

Subject: Children Raised In a Bubble - OT From: PatC To: TV Guide Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 04:07:15 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Sometimes all this cult stuff just gets to be too heavy so I watched ''Bubble Boy'' tonight. For four bucks you can rent it and have an hour and a half of the sort of mindless bliss that only an American picaresque farce can induce. Yes, of course it's silly. It's meant to be but it is at least unpredictable enough to keep you amused. A boy raised in a bubble because of immune deficiency goes on a road trip to save the girl he loves from marrrying the wrong guy. I thought, ''Oh good, I need a break from thinking about cults and all that crap.'' Well the first people he meets are a bunch of cultists on a bus - the ''Bright and Shiny People.'' The leader is played by Fabio - yes the bodice-ripper model. And it just gets weirder after that. Highly recommended for an after dinner movie especially if you've had too much wine. A bit of whacky backy also helps. Two snaps.

Subject: It's tonight From: Francesca To: TV Guide Date Posted: Thurs, Feb 28, 2002 at 17:26:52 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Here's the link. You can look up where it is being shown in your city. It's already over here. Montel cult show www.montelshow.com/show/index.vep

Subject: Thanks for the heads up! [nt] From: Deborah To: TV Guide Date Posted: Thurs, Feb 28, 2002 at 17:26:04 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Jim, can you or Laurie tape this show? From: Deborah To: Deborah Date Posted: Thurs, Feb 28, 2002 at 17:42:09 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'd really really like to see it. Please let me know if it's possible. cheers, deborah

Subject: Re: Jim, can you or Laurie tape this show? From: TV Guide To: Deborah Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 03:56:02 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: A video and transcript are available for purchase via Montel's website.

Subject: Sorry, no, Deb -- won't be home [nt] From: Jim To: Deborah Date Posted: Thurs, Feb 28, 2002 at 21:41:51 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Forum Archives now up to date From: JHB To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Feb 28, 2002 at 13:55:24 (EST) Email Address: epowebmaster@yahoo.co.uk Message: I've finally got the archives up to date. Please let me know if you spot any broken links. Just a few words on the archives for those who are interested. Each archive file is a snapshot of this forum. Archives are taken every few days depending on traffic here and when I remember. Archive files will always overlap - the latest thread on one archive could be the oldest thread on the next. This also means that not all posts get archived. For instance, a reply to an old thread after an archive has been run will probably not make it to the next archive as only 700 messages are kept on line. Also, I don't do any editing of the archive files, so if your post has survived the Forum Admins and Hotboards corruptions, then it will make it to the archive. A comprehensive archive search facility is not yet available. It's on my list, but in the meantime Sir Dave's search engine is still available for older archives at http://www.geocities.com/forumarchives1/search.htm, and if you can't find what you're looking for email me and I'll search the archives I have on my local drive. John.

Subject: I didn't thank you because.... From: PatC To: JHB Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 04:13:38 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I thought everybody else would and you wouldn't even notice if I didn't but since nobody did I will. Thanks.

Subject: I know everyone is grateful From: JHB To: PatC Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 05:09:46 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: But they don't want to fill up the forum with thank yous because then I would have more posts to archive! Thanks everyone:-) John.

Subject: Thanks, JHB From: Richard To: JHB Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 14:57:10 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: On behalf of everyone who posts or ever has posted or ever will post in the future..... THANK YOU JHB!!!!!!!!!!!!! BHOLESHRIFORUMWIZARDJOHNBRAUNKIJAIIIIIIIIIIIIII!!!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: Deluxe or Pioneer at Amaroo? From: Marge Large To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Feb 28, 2002 at 12:33:06 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I just got the following email after I promised to donate $500 (US) to Amaroo. I am so excited, From: HR (hr@ircc.com.au) To: Margelarge@email.com Subject: How to register Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 15:04:14 +1000 --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- -- Thank you for your support of Amaroo. Your pre-registration really helped. Your account is now in credit in US$ for the amount that you pre-paid. If you paid by cheque, your account will be in credit when the cheque is received. Please do not re-register. A Customer Service Representative will process your booking. Please advise your choice from the information below by return email or by phoning 61 7 54648 474 between 9am and 3pm Brisbane time on Saturday March 2nd and Sunday March 3rd. Your choice of package by picking one of the options below: Registration US$156 Deluxe single US$1,510 including registration Deluxe double US$1,210, including registration Pioneer single US$340, including registration Pioneer twin US$235, including registration Contribution (any amount that is a multiple of US$10) For more information about these packages please visit www.Amaroo.org Your choice of payment method: We have your payment details on record. Please advice if you wish to use an alternative payment method or a different credit card. Otherwise we will use the information from your record to charge the difference between your pre-payment and your booking. A confirmation will be sent to your email address when your request is processed. Thank you again for your support of Amaroo. It is greatly appreciated. I just can't decide because they all sound so WONDERFUL. Am I a deluxe kind of gal, or more of a pioneer gal? I bet the 'deluxe' accommodations are luxury, air-conditioned suites with private jacuzzis. But can I afford $1,510 before the $2,000 airfare, not counting food and ground transport? Well, I DO need to diet, so maybe I can go without food. Sell a kidney?

Subject: i thought about this From: janet To: Marge Large Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 16:27:06 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I was pondering on a line I saw in a movie once, where some guy gives a huge donation check to some political candidate so he can get up close and get in good with the guy, get some immediate favor out of him--and than momenter you see him talking to his buddies and they're aghast that he gave the guy money--and the first guy confides crassly- 'OH, don't worry about the money. I put a stop payment on the check.' ...this set me maundering to doing something of the like to MJ. Making outlandish donations on nonexistent credit cards, writing staggering checks on old, closed accounts I still have the unused checks from, promising large payments in cash, and then sending envelopes stuffed with monopoly money...that sort of thing. jeez, but i can think cruel thoughts at times.

Subject: Re: Deluxe or Pioneer at Amaroo? From: bolly shri To: Marge Large Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 06:58:04 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: go on spoil yourself save on those other inessentials like houses, just look at the bargain m got on his des res and ask yourself if perhaps he has something to teach everyone about having your cake and eating everyone elses. love and happy travels bolly shri

Subject: Includes all the KoolAid you can drink;) [nt] From: Richard To: Marge Large Date Posted: Thurs, Feb 28, 2002 at 22:33:20 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: is selling KoolAid futures [nt] From: The Maharaji of Malibu To: Richard Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 06:09:23 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: The Price is Right From: John Burgess To: Marge Large Date Posted: Thurs, Feb 28, 2002 at 15:49:04 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: $235 incl Rego for 5 days expensive? Bullshit,it's good value!

Subject: No, it's TWO nights. From: Joe To: John Burgess Date Posted: Thurs, Feb 28, 2002 at 19:30:23 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: According to the Amarscroo website, the event is TWO nights, three days as quoted: Maharaji has accepted an invitation to attend a three-day event at Amaroo from Friday 19th April to Sunday 21st April 2002. This event is for people who have received the techniques of Self-Knowledge So, $235 apparently gets you in and lets sleep in a 'pioneer' double tent for two nights. Transportation, food, and the rest are not included. Yeah, what a great deal! And keep in mind that Aussies will end up paying TWICE that because they have to pay in US dollars. Let's see, $235 a night to share a tent for two nights in the Outback of the middle of nowhere.

Subject: The Event is Two nights silly From: Baby John again~) To: Joe Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 03:24:08 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Lets get this straight motormouth.Extra time is allowed: We are permitted to arrive early(you can find out how early,Im not telling you!) We know it is in Yankee Dollars-basically it is $100 a night. Registration IS included in that price. The tents are well set up,the facilities are first class and it is ,contrary to the impression you are giving,a beautiful enviroment. You seem to ignore the fact that you haven't been there for a LONG time... Middle of no-where?Oh yeah,just outside Brisbane and 1 hour from the Gold Coast. THE OUTBACK? are you kidding ? The Alice ? The Kimberley's. Get over here and I'LL take you to the OUTBACK.We'll go Croc hunting.You can be the bait!())

Subject: First Class Facilities From: OTS To: Baby John again~) Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 11:08:49 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Regarding three points you make in this thread Johnny: The tents are well set up, the facilities are first class and it is ,contrary to the impression you are giving, a beautiful environment. I would hope for a thousand and a half large the tents wouldn’t fall down in the middle of the night, so the set up of the tents I guess IS a real selling point. [Though a couple of tents did get flooded out in the middle of the night rainstorms last April.] I’ve been to First Class facilities and these are more like Third World facilities, Mr. Burgess. The swimming pool and tennis court is reserved for only one person. Sorry, don't bring a bathing suit. The rest of the attendees can just sit it out all day in the heat and wait for sunset to arrive to get some real relaxation sitting in the plastic seats of the dusty amphitheater after having baked all day out in the sun. And I mean hot. Where all day do you do nothing (unless you overwork yourself in “service”)? Not in the tents -- too friggin hot during the afternoon. Bake me! No. In the Pavilion? Maybe, but it’s still hot and if it’s raining, forget it, because you can’t really enjoy your crappy vendor-made food while being rained on, and the seating in the middle with the covering only holds so many and is louder than sitting at a racetrack. The food -- for all but 160 a night at the Functions Centre for dinner -- is really not good, served in styrofoam and plastic with terrible service and horrible layout and food lines, making you get in line after line to get different portions of your meal. First Class facilities? I don’t think so. Has EV Australia gone through every single caterer in the country yet? Possibly. The last one from April 2001 won’t be back. Didn’t make what was promised. Got mad, settled, finished up and left with a bad taste. Second Class might be a dormitory or hotel room with a small swimming hole to relax at all day in the heat or any kind of recreational facilities. Presently nonexistent. First Class would be a water park with a slide and wave pool, with an airconditioned room to nap in and rest afterward. Middle of no-where? Oh yeah, just outside Brisbane No, John, it IS in the middle of nowhere. There is one tiny shop/gas station and one little tavern for drinks and/or dinner in the entire town. Vegetarians not welcome. Yeah, it’s a beautiful environment, except you’re not allowed to go anywhere on the property except for a very few spots which are -- surprise! -- occupied with thousands of other persons there for the event looking for anything to do all day to pass the time. Not really a quiet day in the park. But yeah, it is out back. And no, it’s not “JUST OUTSIDE” Brisbane, but rather a 40 minute bus ride. The main problem is that after either working all day and night and all day and night or sitting around all day doing nothing just waiting for the highlight of the day (the sunset event), the only thing that happened there was that one falls asleep during the boring recap on breathing. And finally, Baby J, your prior post needs just a drop of editing. You said: $235 incl Rego for 5 days expensive? Bullshit, it's good value! I think it should have read: $235 incl Rego for 5 days. Expensive bullshit (it's a good value). If you like bullshit, IT IS a good value. Enjoy, my friend, but watch out for the deadly red-back spiders, will you please.

Subject: Well, OTS, your description of Amaroo From: PatC To: OTS Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 13:52:15 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ......just convinced me to go. Yeah right! Thanks for the scoop. Sounds like Kissimee with slightly better shithouses. Fine when your twenty but not for senior citizens like me.

Subject: You Betcha! From: Baby John To: OTS Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 13:29:01 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You cant be a local.Talk about a wimp!Sorry but you must have been somewhere else...

Subject: sounds like a (K) concentration camp! [nt] From: Dermot To: Baby John Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 14:50:04 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: Get Real From: OTS To: Baby John Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 14:16:55 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'm not local, one didn't have to be Australian to have attended these events since 1992 since they were international events. In fact, I made it over for most of them. I'm sorry but I WAS THERE, Johnny Boy -- Ivory's Rock with the after hours bar and weather-beaten rangers. Ten years worth of fundraising hasn't made it a commercialy viable Conference Centre yet. Maybe they should try and raise more funds. Come on folks, give it up! I see where this year you don't have to donate US$800 in order to hire a tent and stay on site, like last April. I guess those high rollers have rolled over and aren't around to make the big donations this year. You betcha!

Subject: Ohh.......but From: John Baby To: OTS Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 19:33:41 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You think? Or maybe it's as described,a regional event primarily for the locals...

Subject: Re: The Event is Two nights silly From: Livia To: Baby John again~) Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 03:32:25 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I wonder why premies are so generally unpleasant these days. When I was a practising premie and someone tried to oppose me with reasoned debate, I don't recall using sarcasm or vitriol in my defence of Maharaji. I don't think it would have done any good, somehow. Love, Livia

Subject: Re: The Event is Two nights silly From: Baby John Burgess To: Livia Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 04:59:49 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Oh well, basically I'm a prick.But then the whole world has changed hasn't it Livia ,and as Forrest says'Stupid is as Stupid does!':P I guess the fake religious crap you guys lived by is gone Good eh?

Subject: Re: The Event is Two nights silly From: Livia To: Baby John Burgess Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 08:26:54 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: John, if qualities like kindness, honesty and sensitivity are fake religious crap, then give me fake religious crap any day. I've seen more of those qualities on Forum 7 in the last few weeks than in the last 15 years with premies (of the practising variety). But in the New Improved version of Maharaji's world it appears that anything goes. Oh well, as long as you keep on experiencing 'Self-Knowledge' then everything must be alright, hey? With regards, Livia

Subject: Fake religious crap? From: cq To: Baby John Burgess Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 07:11:35 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Fake religious crap? Are you seriously claiming that M had nothing to do with peddling that crap? If so, I reckon that makes you a party to the same fraud as Maha-Iusedtobeaconartistbutdon'tletthatstopyougivingmeyourmoney-raji. Caveat emptor, folks.

Subject: Yep .. From: Baby John To: cq Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 13:31:43 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Sticks in your craw eh?Me ? I'm as free as a bird

Subject: no, you're just like CatWeasel From: Tonette To: Baby John Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 23:57:51 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Talk and act just like him. Lots of comments but with nary a shread of substance. A cult member addled by the damage it has done to your ability to reason, your thinking. Good luck John, have a nice time in Amaroo, do come back and tell us all about 'that place', your life and breath. Good luck indeed, it's about time it visited you. Tonette

Subject: Re: no, you're just like CatWeasel From: Yes ,youre right!())())())())()) To: Tonette Date Posted: Sat, Mar 02, 2002 at 06:54:45 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: That Catweasel he is such a rogue!())

Subject: You're just like CatWeasel. It is CW [nt] From: PatC To: Tonette Date Posted: Sat, Mar 02, 2002 at 04:57:58 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: WHY HE NEEDS SO MUCH MONEY??????????? From: salsa To: Marge Large Date Posted: Thurs, Feb 28, 2002 at 13:01:07 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: i detest what he does to people! robots of truth, yeah.

Subject: Can anyone break down those fees? From: Deborah To: salsa Date Posted: Thurs, Feb 28, 2002 at 15:38:14 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Doesn't maharaji unofficially own Amaroo? WHat is a deluxe accomodation, anyways. And what brilliant marketing person came up with 'pioneer' package. Actually, I have to give him or her credit for that one. Anybody ever been to Amaroo who can paint a picture. If someone goes, please take pictures?

Subject: intensity in tent city From: John Macgregor To: Deborah Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 00:37:06 (EST) Email Address: johnmac@turboweb.net.au Message: Hi Deb, (And sorry for not replying to your earlier missives - overwhelmed by life.) Deliuxe, from memory, is a spacious, classy tent. They heat up to the temperature of the surface of the Sun by 10am, but they look nice - and there used to be a category above that (super deluxe?) which was a 'pop-up' a van thing the top half of which folded out into a tent. Pioneer would I imagine be a common or garden tent that sleeps two (oneself and a holiday bonk quite commonly). These tents are spread out in their thousands across various paddocks, side by side: kind of like a mobile Calcutta. (That's unkind: conditions are usually quite clean - tho you can hear everything that happens in your neighbours' tents, which is sometimes alarming.) Sorry - no pictures to be taken on the site: a long-standing rule. I guess this excludes the live security cameras which, when I was leaving, Maharaji was planning to install on every gate and crossroad. Best to you, John

Subject: Thanks for painting the picture :) [nt] From: Deborah To: John Macgregor Date Posted: Sat, Mar 02, 2002 at 15:34:50 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Guests were allowed to take pictures From: Captain Update To: John Macgregor Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 21:50:47 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: everywhere but the Fuhrer compound. There are hundreds in circulation from last April. Mr Magoo, if you wish to continue posing as an authority on all things M and K then you must keep up with the evolution. It's called 'keeping in touch'. People out of touch are no use to anyone.

Subject: Deborah, John MacG & all: From: Crispy To: John Macgregor Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 13:08:26 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 500 US$ is an obscene highway robbery of a registration fee. I can appreciate the pitching in to cover costs of the many years of blood, sweat and tears that put the whole site together, but geez, 500 US$ just to stampede over the hill once a day for 3 days to hear some more of his arrogant jokes, sing Arti to him, and cringe during his singing . The nicest thing for me last year was the 1-hr sanity period inside the K Centre each morning, but chances of getting in got progressively slimmer each day. $500 is actually a reasonable charge for many other 3-day professional workshops; but at least you come out with a new skill a/o useful knowledge of some sorts. But have to say, the only thing I learned from last year at Amaroo is that I won't be going to another. Warning to everyone going this year: hold on to your registration receipts/confirmations. Last year my credit card was erroneously charged 410 Brit Pounds instead of US$. Last item: Last year the no-photos-onsite rule was very much slacked. People were taking shots left, right and centre. So I brought my camera in the next day, and I have some shots as a result I could attach for you, Deborah (including one of the speaker onstage). Should I dare do this or would I be facing lawsuits, defamation and such as a result? Cheers to you all, Chris

Subject: Re: Billing in GBP and Photos From: JHB To: Crispy Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 18:24:56 (EST) Email Address: brauns@apollo.lv Message: How could a credit card be accidentally billed in Sterling instead of AU or US dollars? If you want to avoid any lawsuits, send the photos to me. As an expert in Latvian, anti-cult, law, I assure you, no harm will come to you on publication:-) John.

Subject: adding some facts to the mix From: Pardon me for To: Crispy Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 18:13:31 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ...but registration is $156, not $500, and you can stay on the land for 5 days, if you want to, not 2. This is about par for the level of reportage on this board. Amaroo is one of the more gorgeous spots I've ever been to and I've traveled all over the world since I was little. Go on back to your fantasies of concentration camps, etc. if it makes you feel better. Sayonara! Pardon me For interrupting this whiny load of crap

Subject: Thanks, I stand corrected... From: Crispy To: Pardon me for Date Posted: Sat, Mar 02, 2002 at 00:37:36 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You’re right - 156 US$ it is this year. My error for not checking the amaroo.org’s registration site, and assuming the $500 pre-payment was the actual registration fee. I also appreciate it when people get their facts straight so I promise to get mine right ‘before the fact’ next time. Therefore I will rephrase: Last year’s 410 US$ registration for 4-days, IMO, was way over-priced, for what I personally got out of it all. I remember thinking to myself coming back afterwards that it really wasn’t worth my travelling to the opposite side of the world to see. Honestly, the things I did enjoy were the morning practice sessions in the site’s K centre, an early Saturday morning walk through Brisbane’s Botanical Gardens, the afternoon of ocean kayaking at Tallebudgera Beach and Burleigh Heads, shopping for a Driza-bone coat that’s $300 cheaper there than here, and eating at a Sushi bar in Brisbane. Beautiful botanical gardens, ocean kayaking, and sushi bars are found in many other places as well on this side of the world. A nice meditation can be had right in my own home. So that leaves the great bargain on the Driza-bone coat - but then what about the $2000 airfare to go get it. I’ll release you - I think you get the gist of my sentiments? In plain language, I’m someone who is disillusioned and fallen out of love with Mj and his world, and do not want to travel to see him again, even if a sane-headed organizer has brought the insane registration fee down - that’ll be a nice break for folks going this year. (Yawn) it’s been a long day - time to hit the hay. Sincerely, ChrisP, clan motto: My mind remains unmoved.

Subject: Addendum - additional comments: From: Crispy again To: Crispy Date Posted: Sat, Mar 02, 2002 at 10:39:05 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: There are some other concerns brought up in this thread on which I’d like to make a further ‘statement’, so I figure this is the place to do it. First of all, last year I always felt I was in a safe environment at Amaroo (other than the stampede that developed to animalistic proportions by the last day). I never felt I was in a concentration camp per se, although I would have appreciated feeling freer to arrive and leave at my own times of choosing, We were totally dependent on the bus shuttles’ schedule from Ipswich, as vehicle access to the site was VERY limited. We’d have to wait for the shuttle’s arrival for the return trip to Ipswich at the end of each day. From Brisbane, we relied on an approx. Aus$30/week (if I remember correctly) for the train pass from Brisbane to Ipswich (approx. 35-min. train ride); then transferred to the bus coach shuttles (80 US$/4 days), which was a 15-20 min. ride to the site further inland away from civilization. A truly get-away-from-it-all site does have its pros and cons. And BTW, access through the smartcard gates was well-guarded. The 5-day camp site package I would not personally go for, and yours truly is someone who loves camping. Once the 3-day program is over, you can bet I’d rather be heading for a coastal beach than staying on the site. Lastly, backing up to the ‘safe’ environment at Amaroo and the Jonestown comparisons. I remember as a premie laughing at the comparisons made; what an outlandish association - Jonestown! For sure, we’re not about to start drinking poison - at least not myself and the premies I know. However, I’ve seen for myself a valid comparison to the Mj-crowd dyanamics, that I remember always being there for as long as I can remember, to some degree or other. However, it crossed the line for me during one of his talks, I think it was the 2nd or 3rd evening of last year’s Amaroo event. My mother taught me REAL GOOD on how to thank hosts and express appreciation for someone else’s constructive works and helpful acts. As I had up until last year believed Mj was the master, I would dismiss his poking fun and belittling the words and actions of people around him as ‘cute/okay for him - but only for him, as the master’. When Mj jokingly referred to the poor sound connection to his mike as ‘that’s typical Aussie inefficiency for you’, the majority* of the crowd (* as if it was everyone but the Aussies ) boo’ed along with him right after. An Aussie girl next to me gasped ‘premies can be SO insensitive’ and broke down into a 10-min. sob. I was thinking, ‘yes they sure can, and from where do they get their idea it’s okay to be insensitive? From the example of a fat daddy who never grew up and learned a few manners himself’. Which leads me to the concern that blindly following an imperfect leader does (and certainly did that night) lead to letting go of one’s own decent human judgement. :( I don’t want to wait around for the time when his arrogance directly reflects on ME. And to any premies reading this, please understand I don’t mean to sound nasty or trashy towards YOU. It’s just a passionate feeling I’m exiting with. Having left, I feel great and relieved in many ways. Sayonara, ChrisP, and thanks for letting me add my 2 more lentils worth.

Subject: Re: Addendum - additional comments: From: Livia To: Crispy again Date Posted: Sun, Mar 03, 2002 at 08:45:55 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks for a passionately written testament, and how right you are. I haven't been going to see Maharaji regularly for many years now, but I remember it well, M's laughter at other people's expense, and premies joining in in a horrible sycophantic sort of way. It used to turn my stomach in an uncomfortable sort of way, and I hope to god I never EVER felt tempted to join in. I also remember the gales of laughter at what were often M's very unfunny and often cruel jokes, in exactly the way that people laugh nauseatingly when they are in the presence of a mildly amusing famous person. It's sycophantism, no more or no less, and demonstrates just how much of a personality cult it all is. Thanks again. with love, awakeningly, Livia

Subject: Sycophants: THAT'S the word! Thanks (nt) From: Crispy To: Livia Date Posted: Sun, Mar 03, 2002 at 22:48:42 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: adding some facts to the mix From: Dermot To: Pardon me for Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 19:27:20 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ' (K) concentration camp' ......a play on words? You concentarte om the Knowledge techniques (as there isn't much else to do) in a tent city camp.....add to that, blistering heat in an isolated spot and hey presto! .....concentration camp!! I know, I know, it's not that clever but Icouldn't resist it.... I'm sure it isn't as bad as Belsen or anything......then again I'm glad I'm not going!! I appreciated the post by fromer aspirant.....now that makes sense to me.

Subject: Sort of From: Joe To: Pardon me for Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 18:36:52 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Well sure, the registration is $156 (US) twice that, as we said, for Aussies, and where the fuck are you going to stay if you don't pay at least $256 for the crummiest tent? And if you do stay someplace else, how much more would that be, and what would the transport cost? Oh, great, you get to stay there for 5 days in a tent, that makes it a much better deal, for sure.

Subject: Simple From: Baby John To: Joe Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 21:05:30 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Local motels offer an equivalant price.Transport is not problematical. Joe ,you dont have to come,so stop worrying.

Subject: Re: Sort of From: Pardon me To: Joe Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 18:41:50 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You stay in a motel for $45-50 a night and transport is free, unless you're in Brisbane and you might have to pay $10. Scary, huh? ' And if you do stay someplace else, how much more would that be, and what would the transport cost?'

Subject: Re: Sort of From: Joe To: Pardon me Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 19:09:12 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Oh, so it's cheaper to stay in a hotel than in a tent. I see. Why do the Aussies have to pay in US dollars making it twice as expensive for them? Seems highly unfair. OTS and Chris really disagree with you about how nice that place is and what the accommodations are like, but then to each his own. I just think if M really wanted to make it as easy as possible for the majority of premies, most of whom are just regular guys and gals without a lot of money, he would have those events in someplace a little more centrally located, and not in a remote corner of the world, in the Outback of Australia. As it is, it adds to the perspective that the cult is largely for the rich.

Subject: NOT THE OUTBACK! From: ())())()) More Spin())())()) To: Joe Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 21:09:07 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Stop Spinning this story,it is just outside Brisbanes metro area.

Subject: That's what they said about Jonestown From: Marianne To: Pardon me for Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 18:20:23 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yep, it was heaven on earth and gorgeous and everybody got to be together without those nasty people who dared question the Master....

Subject: Re: That's what they said about Jonestown From: Pardon me To: Marianne Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 21:28:44 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Ooooooh! Booga, booga booga! You're scaring me with your in-depth anal-ysis! How prescient! How brilliant! How impotent!

Subject: Re: That's what they said about Jonestown From: ())SPIN()) To: Marianne Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 21:10:50 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You should be ashamed of yourself.There is NO comparison, none whatsoever

Subject: Re: That's what they said about Jonestown From: PatD To: ())SPIN()) Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 22:02:03 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: She's just worried that it could be,that's all. You know,seeing as Rawat isn't the Lord of the Universe now,just a teacher,he could crack. It's a stressful job keeping all those students on the straight & narrow,especially when they're following the maestro's tastes in fags&booze.What can a Lord of the Universe do except to let them off the hook maya wise,if he needs their gas money to get to where they can see him in the 1st place. I can't see it myself either,not yet anyway,but just remember,if God throws the bar open,says 'the bollinger's on me tonight',you heard it here first. Wake up.

Subject: Re: That's what they said about Jonestown From: Cynthia To: PatD Date Posted: Sat, Mar 02, 2002 at 14:06:57 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: To PatD, Please don't minimize the possibilities about Amaroo in comparison with Jonestown. There are chilling similarities both in cult dynamics and the isolation of a site with only followers and the master present. But, Marianne can and does speak for herself:) Cynthia

Subject: ())())())Jonestown = Bullshit Spin())())()) From: Spin Miester Foil())())())()) To: Cynthia Date Posted: Mon, Mar 04, 2002 at 08:12:52 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: That's total frogshit.With Queenslands finest in attendance for the whole event what are you saying?The Police and Hired security will all start drinking Koolaid too? You can be a real dumb schmuck sometimes! {By the way ,it's usual in Oz to have a Police prescence at large outdoor events,so dont read anything sinister into that. Normal and civilised and so isolated that every taxi driver in Brisbane knows the place and could take you there. It's no good lying like this,you just come unstuck.....) ())

Subject: Just to Further Clarify From: OTS To: Crispy Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 14:30:03 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks for that excellent and 100% true report of the scene last April, ChrisPy. Just to clarify for your readers about your line about stampeding over the hill. That's right folks. No seat numbers. It's everyone for themselves. Run Run Run Run Run Run and hopefully get a seat somewhere not too far back. But everyone is saving so many seats that it's so frustrating. Anyway. Maybe when you're in your SEVENTIES you'll get a reserved seat up front. But don't count on it. Regarding your one-hour session in the K-Centre each day being the highlight for you. Yep, it was the only airconditioned place on the property where you could just sit and chill for an hour. But, yes, as more and more people got hip to the unbelievably wonderful controlled air and sound environment in the there, it became THE PLACE TO BE (AND BE SEEN) and overcrowded, and entrance became unruly as the days went on. I'm sure it'll be just great this year.

Subject: Amaroo is a hell hole From: Former Aspirant To: OTS Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 16:29:49 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I remember the heat, god do I remember the heat. And the dust, and the flies on the food, and the stampede to sit in the hole in the ground that was the programe venue, and the sitting around trying to get some breath of cool air. I couldn't wait to get the fuck out of that place and stop feeling like a fried egg. Yes, Amaroo, where I spent days roasting in the sun so I could sleep in a fucking tent I could not afford, in the middle of fucking nowhwere. But the worst was seeing idiot cult members line up like cattle to kiss the little fucker's feet. If I wasn't already nauseous from eating shitty pasta in the middle of the desert, I would have become that way. This is partly why I am a "former" aspirant. I got to see the cult from the inside and it isn't pretty.

Subject: aye that's right - sun roasted From: Crispy Critter To: Former Aspirant Date Posted: Sat, Mar 02, 2002 at 11:48:49 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Former aspirant: yes, the hub shop was selling the last umbrellas and brimmed sunhats like hot cakes and they always seemed to be sold out of SPF cream. And did you notice how, by the 3rd & 4th day, all the shady areas were blocked off with No Access ribbons? What you've written is also telling of typical cult deception towards new people. I wouldn't be surprised if you were never told before seeing it for youself that it's another personality-worshipping, foot-kissing cult? You're lucky to have gotten out BEFORE receiving K, former aspirant Cheers to you.

Subject: Cap d'Antibes is Hell on Earth From: Pardon me To: Former Aspirant Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 22:33:05 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I remember the sunburn, god do I remember the sunburn...spreading slowly and insidiously like poisonous spider bites. And the skimpy bathing suits...and that horrible smell of cocoa butter. You could see way too much of everyone's protruding particulars, male and female. Yeucccch! That awful sub-human who wanted to dance with me under those ugly, ugly stars...Who's responsible for those disgusting, non-linear constellations, anyway? The rosemary chicken made we want to vomit...and the truffles! Hideously deformed people everywhere I looked and the sky was so damned clear I couldn't stand it. Worst of all, everyone but me had those stupid grins pasted on their faces as if they were having loads of fun. Couldn't they see that we were in the most god-awful Hellhole on Earth! Pascal this and Claudine that, what kinds of fucked-up names are those? Where are the Michaels and Pattys to make me feel normal? God save me from lumpy Speedos and offers of Sambuca! I'm sooo glad I saw the truth and got away from the Demonic Furnace of the Riviera to be with people who see things clearly, like I do.

Subject: Re: intensity in tent city From: McDuck To: John Macgregor Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 00:45:46 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: And your delicate nature prevented you mentioning that Camp F used to be known as Camp Fuck, thus confirming the kind of extracurricular activities which took place.

Subject: Re: intensity in tent city From: Fred Niles love child To: McDuck Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 03:28:41 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jesus! Mcduck you can be a real prude I suppose if you drove through the suburbs of any major city on any day of the week, NO-ONE is having sex? Get your blinkers off you Feral Hippy........

Subject: Re: intensity in tent city From: Livia To: Fred Niles love child Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 03:37:01 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Sorry, I'm no prude but somehow the idea of a tent city with audible sounds of hundreds/thousands of people fucking isn't particularly my idea of a peaceful place to sleep/meditate/muse/whatever. Regards, Livia

Subject: Re: intensity in tent city From: Fred Niles Love Child:p To: Livia Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 05:02:56 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Well it isn't and wasn't like that unless you walked past John and Jenny's tent. Most people sleep and the worst noise problem is snoring. Fact

Subject: thanks D From: John Macgregor To: Fred Niles Love Child:p Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 10:42:36 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks D. That's the last time I buy you a cafe latte. Next time we meet I'll put you on chamomile tea, to calm your fevered mind.

Subject: It's Catweasel, John Mac From: PatC To: John Macgregor Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 14:27:10 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: He said: ''I'm NOT D .I live 200klms away or sometimes 3000. But I have known you for just as long.'' Presumably he means he's known you for just as long as Roupell has. CW has said he spends time in NZ and that's where his ISP is. Don't you know anyone who lives near but spends time in NZ? Come on, John. wrack your brains and out the weasel. Of course he could be lying - as he does again and again and again.

Subject: '2000' you evil schemer From: Austin Powers To: PatC Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 19:53:24 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Roupell or the big D?Put it this way it is better left alone for all concerned Pat.We dont want to open a can of worms do we.I have a ver long memory.Very long..

Subject: But, Austin, I love cans of worms From: PatC To: Austin Powers Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 20:30:40 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I have one for breakfast every morning like a stuanch expremie should. They're shagadelic, baby.

Subject: Re: But, Austin, I love cans of worms From: Austin Baby To: PatC Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 21:13:17 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: OK ,but I can see this could get very freaky.For you too baby.Everyone has their skeletons hey?

Subject: Re: But, Austin, I love cans of worms From: PatC To: Austin Baby Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 21:36:03 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: OK ,but I can see this could get very freaky.For you too baby.Everyone has their skeletons hey? --- Yes, but my skeletons aren't in a closet. They're on the CAC site for all to see. Anyway, Pussy Weasel Ji, I don't want to see your smelly old skeletons. I'm sure you dig them out occassionally and play with them but I've grown quite fond of you and don't want to spoil your fun. :P How the hell do you do those spinning heads.

Subject: Spinning heads?Like this!())())()) From: :p:p:p:p Pussssy:p:p:p:p To: PatC Date Posted: Sat, Mar 02, 2002 at 06:45:41 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ())())())())())())())()) :p

Subject: Re: thanks D From: Freds Kid To: John Macgregor Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 13:34:22 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'm NOT D .I live 200klms away or sometimes 3000. But I have known you for just as long...Take it easy -- it was a Yoke Beryl

Subject: thanks again D From: John Macgregor To: Freds Kid Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 20:23:19 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'I'm NOT D .I live 200klms away or sometimes 3000.' Depending on the whiskey intake? (-: 'But I have known you for just as long...' Same Knowledge Session indeed. 'Take it easy -- it was a Yoke Beryl' Okay, you're back on the latte - but strictly on probation. See you in town. John

Subject: Re: thanks again D From: Baby John To: John Macgregor Date Posted: Sat, Mar 02, 2002 at 06:48:52 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: John ,this is a delusion.He's a nice man and all,but me and him?Nah ,you would never confuse us...

Subject: Re: thanks D From: Marianne To: John Macgregor Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 12:01:36 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: John and McDuck: You obviously are both familiar with this troll who is bothering you. We've not seen much of you of late, so I hope this latest infestation doesn't put you off again. They love to needle you and put your personal information out in public, but want to hide themselves. Yes, it certainly tells us everything we want to know about them. Fond regards, Marianne

Subject: Re: thanks D From: McDuck To: Marianne Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 18:51:18 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks for your concern, Marianne, but not to worry. I've been needled by experts with far more money and class (and lawyers) than any of the sad lurkers here. The thing is, they're not putting any personal information out in public.All the attempts at character assassination so far have been highly inaccurate, and the many people who know me will understand what tossers my and John's detractors are. There is a much bigger world beyond F7, LG, AG, MJ and the countless other abbreviations and I'm too busy enjoying that to concern myself with stingless gnats. Cheers, McDuck

Subject: Thanks for your concern, Marianne From: Captain Correction To: McDuck Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 22:26:12 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: nice to see you are in your usual ugly and vindictive mindset. That nasty troll was giving John and Mike a horrible beating wasn't it just? Too terrible isn't it. What hideous creatures they are! Thank God (sorry, thank F7) for saviours like yourself. Don't kid yourself Mr McDougalduck, no-one here knows you - but get a little too cocky and they just might get an eye opener or two

Subject: Re: Thanks for your concern, Marianne From: Baby John and Austin Baby To: Captain Correction Date Posted: Sat, Mar 02, 2002 at 06:53:13 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Plenty in the cupboard...

Subject: You're doing the Job of an ex... From: Ddermot To: Captain Correction Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 23:23:13 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: why should we bother? Anyone reading your anonymous threat to people who've given their names in public will only conclude that you're a member of a loveless, fanatical cult. What other conclusion could be drawn? That you're experiencing some incredible experience that fills you with such sweetness that life is fundamentally enhanced? Fine advert for Mr Rawat you are mate. Fine.

Subject: especially when the Maha's on stage! (nt) From: cq To: Fred Niles Love Child:p Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 07:13:02 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: -especially when the Maha's on stage! (nt)

Subject: especially when the Maha's on stage! (nt) [nt] From: Livia To: cq Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 08:32:51 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: LOL

Subject: prisoners have proven they're gullible. Now, From: The Maharaji of Malibu's To: salsa Date Posted: Thurs, Feb 28, 2002 at 13:17:39 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: the only question remaining is just how gullible. He must continue to push them to fork over more and more money. Let's face it the number of willing victims can do nothing but get smaller. Therefore, he must constantly find ways to increase the contributions of those still trapped. The events of 9/11 certainly haven't helped his mom n' pop cult business either as many who would still be willing to give and buy have also been affected. This plus the constant defections/escapes certainly must cause great concern for the truly realized maha of malibu.

Subject: Yachts don't come cheap (nt) From: Marge Large To: salsa Date Posted: Thurs, Feb 28, 2002 at 13:04:09 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: nt

Subject: elan vital From: big black bob To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Feb 28, 2002 at 12:20:21 (EST) Email Address: valedaytmanagement@yahoo.co.uk Message: from observation, it appears elan vital are looked upon as something to be feared and revered. Why? ELAN VITAL ARE A BOOKING AGENCY offering a date for invitation to their client booking venues securing dates offering accommodation and travel details and that is just about it. elan vital are a group of individuals in an unnecessary joining as one. which is the only difference between 'them' and true undividuals. What causes them to stay so close? who knows? fear, guilt, greed, jealousy, insecurity, cult activity, totally devoted love to one another? when 'in eservice' at the estate all i herard was how much everyone hatewdf and argued with one another. And there is plenty of evidence to prove that - ie renditions of axe attacks, ashram rapes, siege situations, hangings, unexpected deaths (due to overfullness?) (oo er is it true? I dunno) The connections which that estate have are almost inexplicable - 'I don't know how they done it'! Can you sort them out please, Maharaji (master of truth and light(bible!)) sincerely sadly ps almonds, pumpkin seeds, garlic (unperfumed if need be) worm powders, malathion (derbac), flea powder (please, the aliens are risin' again) salt baths for those lovely 'wraps', pepper, jasmine (tea) (puts heaven back in the right place) poppy seeds (keeps the addictions at bay), a regular walk. Maybe a help pps if you would like to speak with me in person, please do not come to my home. Please do not park near my home - for your safety - 'happy to be angry cat' enjoys themself when they're doing their job properly. please send an e mail or write instead. although there was an invite to bring a flower on sundays for your favourite deceased victim (or maybe for your own peace)

Subject: Re: elan vital From: JHB To: big black bob Date Posted: Thurs, Feb 28, 2002 at 13:34:11 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi! I don't think anyone here fears or reveres Elan Vital even when they were a little larger than now. Why do you think people do? John.

Subject: Dr. Ron Geaves/Visions Propaganda From: Joe To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Feb 28, 2002 at 11:41:59 (EST) Email Address: kevjo@mindspring.com Message: The wonderful EPO Webmaster has now put a new link on the homepage of EPO, as part of the continuing campaign to try to point out the actions and statements of people like Dr. Ron Geaves. These particular statements and participation of Dr. Geaves' were apparently done in an attempt to give legitimacy to Maharaji's attempt to rewrite history in order to protect himself from any criticism or having to take any responsbility for his actions. The new EPO entry reflects my attempts over a period of three weeks to communicate with Dr. Geaves (beginning February 12 via emails and then February 15 via mail in the UK), to get him to discuss this issue with me, which he has so far refused to do. Accordingly, we have no choice but to bring this to a public forum. I hope Dr. Geaves changes his mind and has the integrity to explain his participation in the 'Passages' video, which appears to include blatant revisionist propaganda about Maharaji and his cult. The following is now on EPO: In 2001, Visions International, the publications arm of Maharaji's organization, produced and marketed a video entitled 'Passages, a Master's Journey,' which purports to be a historical documentary on Maharaji and his mission in the West from 1971 to 2001. A number of ex-premies who have seen the video have noticed obvious inaccuracies and a revisionist slant in the story the video tells. In an attempt to raise these concerns and get a response from one of the main speakers in the video, Joe Whalen sent the following letter to Dr. Ron Geaves, a senior lecturer in Religious Studies at Chester College, UK. The letter was originally sent to Dr. Geaves' published work email address, which Dr. Geaves admitted receiving, but replied that he would not respond to it at a work email account. Since Dr. Geaves would not, even after repeated requests, provide his home email address, (although he claims to have one), the letter was then sent by paper mail to his home address. In spite of repeated reminders, Dr. Geaves failed to respond to the issues raised in the letter. The webmaster of this site then sent the letter again, inviting Dr. Geaves to respond before publishing. In spite of a reminder being sent, no responses have been received. We are publishing the letter here as the repeated attempts by Maharaji to rewrite history need to be exposed, and those who collude with Maharaji in this need to be called to account. Dr. Geaves is welcome to respond to the webmaster, and with his agreement, his response will be published here. February 15th, 2002 Dear Dr. Geaves: I hope you don’t mind this attempt to reach you by mail, but I have been unable to get your home e-mail address despite numerous attempts. I have had no luck in getting any response on this subject from Visions International or Maharaji, despite a number of emails to them. I have sent questions to Mr. Tim Gallwey who has also not responded. I would like to correspond with you regarding your comments in a video put out in 2001 by Visions International, entitled 'Passages, A Master's Journey.' I was surprised to hear some of the points made in that video, and given that you appear in the video, I wondered if you might respond to my concerns. Can you tell me if you had any role in making this video other than being one of the speakers? Just as background, I was a devotee of Guru Maharaj Ji from 1973 until 1983, and lived in his ashrams for nine of those 10 years. I held various positions in Elan Vital, including at International Headquarters in Miami Beach, Community and Ashram Coordinator in four cities in the USA and at the DECA Boeing 707 plane project. Because of my history with Maharaji, I was interested to see this video when I heard about it. The video is currently for sale to the public on the Visions website, and is described thereon as an 'historical documentary.' Obviously, no opposing views are included in the video, and as you will note from my comments, I found the video to be highly revisionist and inaccurate. Other former followers of Maharaji, and even some current followers, who have seen the video, have told me they agree. Specifically, early in the video, you state the following: Ron Geaves: [Asking Maharaji after the luxurious residence in Chelsea was no longer available and Maharaji had to stay in an ashram in North London.] Should I get everyone to move, the 15 here [at the ashram], we can turn the whole house over to you and he said no, as long as he could have one room I'm fine. And I always think about that when people sort of make these accusations that Maharaji likes the high life and stays in, you know, always for me there was this high life on one side that we couldn't afford to keep up and then there was this house where a bunch of people who loved practicing knowledge, and love Maharaji and that's where he wanted to be, he was much happier there. _________________ Dr. Geaves, isn't this comment highly misrepresentative of Maharaji's demonstrated love of the 'high life' whenever it has been available to him? I am informed, for example, that Maharaji currently owns a $(US) 7,000,000 yacht, a number of residences around the world, fleets of luxury cars, and many other material possessions representative of the 'high life,' thus making comments about that much more than mere 'accusations,' and the overwhelming evidence of Maharaji's material interests would not appear to be diminished by this story about him at age 13. I have personally seen the way he lived 18 years ago, and it was a material 'high life' that few people of my own means can even imagine. In that light, isn't this statement you make in this video bordering on intellectual dishonesty if it is used to fend off 'accusations' about Maharaji's opulent lifestyle? In addition, I doubt Maharaji ever stayed in an ashram after 1971, at least not for any length of time, and Maharaji not so much as ever set foot in any ashram I ever lived in and I never heard of him ever doing so during the time I was his devotee from 1973 until the ashrams were closed in 1983. It may be that in London in 1971 Maharaji really didn't have any other choice, but I note that a few weeks later when Maharaji was in Los Angeles, he did not request to live in an ashram, and instead remained in the upscale 'residence' the premies obtained for him. Nevertheless, I have no reason to doubt that Maharaji was accepting of his living conditions at that time, but clearly when he had such choices, the record is clear that Maharaji has, indeed, invariably chosen the 'high life,' and there can be no rational doubt about that being the case, the evidence being overwhelming. Perhaps it was the way the video was edited that resulted in what appear to be highly deceptive comments, or 'proof by absurd anecdote' on your part. Can you comment on this? Also, I hope you can comment on the following statements made in the same video, which I can only describe as curious if not absurd: Narrator: By the end of the 1970s Maharaji had successfully introduced knowledge to a number of countries.... But he was becoming increasingly aware of the need to separate knowledge from its Indian cultural packaging. Too many things that are simply a part of Indian culture were considered, incorrectly, by Westerners to be an integral part of what Maharaji was offering. Sandy Collier: We brought a lot of Indian attachments with us, you know, we thought that because knowledge came from India, that somehow we had to adapt some of the Indian things, that somehow our Western way wasn't good enough. Bobby Hendry: The mahatmas came to give knowledge and it was a way of spreading knowledge. The ashrams then, I found, were a way of disciplining yourself, your life, to practice knowledge. Unfortunately, we held on to the Indianness (sic) of it instead of the real practice of knowledge, you know, and incorporating that properly into our lives Glen Whittaker: [After telling a story about giving satsang at a Young Conservatives meeting.] ..and they asked how they could go further and I told them where the nearest ashram was and how there would be a meeting the next Friday. They went there but very few people turned up after that. The week after about three went and the week after none went, because they came across the white sari brigade. Linda Pascotto: I wasn't fascinated with the whole Indian culture. That's why when I first went to hear him speak and I saw these women wearing saris, I though oh, I don't want to wear a sari. Do I have to do that to listen to him and to be in this company and receive knowledge? Because I didn't want to do that. Ron Geaves: But Maharaji always said from the very beginning he had no intention of creating a religion and it seems to me right from day one he's resisted attempts to try and make a religion around him. It seems to me that throughout his life whenever we have attempted to build any box around him, he's always broken out of it and when he does there are those who prefer to be in the box. Narrator: For some people the changes that needed to take place were confronting. They had become attached to a lifestyle they associated with Maharaji and knowledge that was based on Indian tradition. Linda Pascotto: I had friends who lived in the ashram who stopped practicing when the ashrams closed, they felt betrayed, abandoned....(hard edit, cut off mid-sentence) Joan Apter: And it was difficult and challenging for Maharaji. I'm sure it was difficult for everyone... Tim Gallwey: He undertook the challenge to get rid of the fluff, the conceptions that might have attracted people, that in fact some people loved, more than they loved the real thing and that left people with a choice. Do I love my quote 'religion,' my 'Maharaji religion,' or do I love my actual recognition, my actual understanding of what I am seeing and experiencing. And some people said 'no, I'll take my religion, thank you very much (laughs), and some said this is real enough for me that I'm gonna stay with it. ___________________ Dr. Geaves, don't you agree that the 'sari' discussion is absurd on its face, especially when the discussion refers to 'the end of the 1970s?' Clearly, by the end of the 1970s, Western premies were not wearing saris, and, in fact, I don't believe I ever saw a Westerner wear a sari (except for Durga Ji (Marolyn Johnson) at a couple of programs and presumably this was with Maharaji's approval), in my entire time as a premie from 1973-1983. Isn't that just a bit ridiculous as an example of 'Indian culture' to which, according to this video, so many Westerners loved and were attached such that they had a difficult time parting with them as part of their 'lifestyle?' Also, taken in the context of the historical fact that Maharaji was dancing around on stages wearing Krishna garb and crowns well into the 80s, the strange theory that it was Maharaji's devotees who were 'attached' to Indian and Hindu traditions, and that Maharaji himself didn't promote them extensively, that he had to work hard to eliminate them, and that people stopped practicing knowledge because he did so, all seems a bit incomprehensible, and quite frankly, a lie. Can you comment on this as well? Your comments in the video are also used with those of Linda Pascotto, and especially Tim Gallwey, to support the proposition that when the ashrams were closed in 1983 some people so loved the ashram lifestyle that they left Maharaji as a result. Do you agree with this? Do you know of even one person for whom that was true? I have never even heard of such a person and I know quite a number of former followers of Maharaji. Do you know on what factual basis these statements were made? Moreover, this section of the video also presents an even more generalized proposition, espoused by you and more specifically by Tim Gallwey, that some people were more interested in 'the Maharaji religion' than in Maharaji or the practice of knowledge, and as a result, when Maharaji got rid of the 'religion' element, or the 'box,' as you describe it, they found they preferred the 'religion' (apparently ashrams, saris and other Indian traditions), and they stopped practicing knowledge as a result. Speaking as someone who left Maharaji around the time the ashrams were closed, and who was by no means 'attached' to that lifestyle (nor do I know anyone else who was), this simplistic generalization is not only false for the vast majority of people, it also could be seen as insulting to those people. Can you see that point of view? And one other point: given that Maharaji has never eliminated some of the most glaring 'Indian traditions' in his organization, darshan and Arti for example, isn't it a bit disingenuous to suggest that Maharaji got rid of all the Hindu trappings in the first place? As a reminder of this, I noted with amazement that an instrumental version of Arti is ironically played at the end of the Passages video. I understand that you are a lecturer in religion, and I hope coming from that perspective that you will see the problems I am having with the historical inaccuracy in this video in which you appear. Without some other explanation provided, it appears that Maharaji and his organizations, as well as a number of followers such as yourself, have engaged in revisionism in order to explain away actual historical events, and to deflect criticisms people have of him. I hope that is not the case. I look forward to your comments. Please feel free to respond to the above address or email me at kevjo@mindspring.com. Thank you, Joe Whalen San Francisco, CA, USA Ex-premie.org www.ex-premie.org

Subject: EPO Policy on Targetting Premies From: JHB To: Joe Date Posted: Thurs, Feb 28, 2002 at 13:28:08 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: For some time, my personal view is that we should avoid targetting premies, as they are where we were. I included prominent premies in this, as we would all have liked to be closer to Maharaji had we been given the chance. But it's clear that Maharaji is only able to maintain his facade with the help of those around him, those who help him hide his behaviour, and those who help him in his attempts to rewrite the past. Consequently, where appropriate, EPO will in future highlight the contribution that prominent premies make to Maharaji's 'work'. Before doing so, however, reasonable attempts will be made to contact the person in question, and ask them to comment on their involvement with Maharaji. Only when such attempts at communication have failed will we publish. This was the case with Dr. Geaves. Had he not replied to Joe's email, it could be argued that he had not received it, that we had the wrong address, or he was away from his work. But the tone of his response, and his subsequent silence, indicates his unwillingness to discuss the issues. Let us hope that publishing the letter will encourage him to debate. John.

Subject: Communications with Dr. Ron Geaves From: Joe To: JHB Date Posted: Thurs, Feb 28, 2002 at 13:35:38 (EST) Email Address: kevjo@mindspring.com Message: Thanks to John for stating the EPO policy on this. As John mentioned, on February 12, I emailed the above letter to Dr. Ron Geaves at the email address he has on his 'CASAS' website. The same day, I got the following response from Dr. Geaves: I do not respond to e-mails sent to my workplace unless they are concerned with my work. Please send to my home e-mail number. This will be my last communication from this e-mail address warm regards Ron Geaves Note that Dr. Geaves refused to respond from that email address, despite the fact that it is published on the internet, and further that he said I should send the letter to his home email address, but note, curiously, that he did not give it to me. I then made a number of requests to Dr. Geaves, as well as other attempts to find the address to his home email account, which were all unsuccessful. At that point, a very accommodating ex-premie in the UK located Dr. Geaves' home address and mailed a hard copy of my letter to him in the UK on February 15, 2002 via British Post. This, in addition to John's further attempts to get him to respond, makes it appear that Dr. Geaves decided to stonewall me, and by implication, all ex-premies and anyone else with criticisms of the video, just like Tim Gallwey, Visions and Maharaji did.

Subject: Not related to his work???? From: JHB To: Joe Date Posted: Thurs, Feb 28, 2002 at 14:07:13 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: According to the University of Manchester, Centre for Applied South Asian Studies (Casas), website (linked), Dr. Geaves forthcoming publications include:- Geaves, R.A (June 20-23rd 2002) 'From Divine Light Mission to Elan Vital: an Exploration of change and adaptation, Centre for the Studies on New Religions, The 2002 International Conference Minority Religions, Social Change, and freedom of Conscience, University of Utah: Salt Lake City Geaves, R.A. (April 2002) 'From Totapuri to Maharaji: Reflections on a Lineage (parampara)', Cambridge If these are related to his work then comments on the history of Maharaji over the last 30 years certainly are. I cannot see how he can defend his actions here apart from coming clean. John Casas www.art.man.ac.uk/CASAS/personalpages/geaves.htm

Subject: scholarship? From: Abi To: JHB Date Posted: Sat, Mar 02, 2002 at 02:22:27 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: A colleague of mine who works in his area is in the process of writing an academic paper with me about Elan Vital. I think I might call it 'From Divine Light Mission to Elan Vital: An Exploration of Cult Sexual Abuse'. And how ironic that the Salt Lake City conference is about the 'freedom of conscience'. Where is HIS I wonder??

Subject: There's the smoking gun, John From: Francesca :~) To: JHB Date Posted: Thurs, Feb 28, 2002 at 15:19:17 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Can the substance of this thread -- Geaves' response to Joe, the lack of a recourse (i.e. no home address or phone provided) the mailing of a hard copy of Joe's letter to Geaves' home, and the subject of Geaves' upcoming papers showing that Joe's request IS related to Geaves' -- also be added to what is posted on EPO? Perhaps Joe could help write it up. I think Geaves' upcoming papers is a smoking gun. His work is his Lord so how can he blow Joe off like that. It is personal AND professional. Of course, it's up to you. You may want to wait and see if Geaves responds. Francesca

Subject: Re: Not related to his work???? From: Joe To: JHB Date Posted: Thurs, Feb 28, 2002 at 14:28:18 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: True. He does deal with Maharaji both on a 'professional' and a 'personal' basis. I note that those particular papers you quoted are dated in the future (April and June of this year). I trust he will make those papers also available to us. Also, is anybody going to be in Salt Lake city in June? I think it's clear what Dr. Ron is attempting to do in regard to us, and some would call it 'hiding in the bushes.' :)

Subject: Getting A Response From: Pullaver To: Joe Date Posted: Thurs, Feb 28, 2002 at 18:23:50 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: First of all, thanks to you again for writing and sending this well-written letter to Dr. Geaves regarding his role in the revisionist propaganda being churned out by m/ev. You might want to consider copying a letter to the Dean of Religious Studies at Manchester University and the Chancellor of the University, considering the fact that your objections are indeed work-related and Dr. Geaves seems to be voluntarily evading responding to you as well as engaging in intellectual dishonesty. There ought to be a professorial equivalent to the hippocratic oath.

Subject: Re: Getting A Response From: Loaf To: Pullaver Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 11:58:04 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It is very interesting to think of the potential repercussions for a lecturer in the University to be perceived to be actively peddling cult propoganda. But knowing the British education system and the 'anything for a quiet life' philosophy of lecturers at small faculties who publish as many articles as possible for financial gain, to fulfill a Universities research profile and to improve their lecturer status - it would seem that Mr Ron is carving a career out for himself as avidly as he possibly can. And who is to blame him ? But without pressure to act, he will brush this letter under the carpet.

Subject: Re: Getting A Response From: Suzanne To: Loaf Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 11:56:24 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: But what will happen when the search engines for 'Ron Geaves' start picking up EPO along with Ron's lists of scholarly publications, and Chester College? Will that provide any pressure?

Subject: Re: Getting A Response From: Loaf To: Suzanne Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 13:08:09 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yes it would... if his students start searching for him... Hmmm

Subject: Re: Getting A Response From: opie To: Loaf Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 18:09:08 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yes it would... if his students start searching for him... Hmmm Or die in the wool premies still trying to make sense out of the Passages Video. :) The letter to Dr Ron now taking the 10th spot on Google - and climbing fast (using just search items of 'ron geaves') OP

Subject: Amazing transformation of Deputy Dog From: Marianne To: All Date Posted: Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 21:06:13 (EST) Email Address: MarianneDB@aol.com Message: Hello everyone. While reading the forum today, I noticed a post from Deputy Dog stating that he is now a 'spiritual ex'. DD's post actually has great significance, so I wanted to comment upon it. I've been around here for 3 years now. Since I first arrived, DD was one of the most consistent premie contributors to the forum. He took loads of crap from many of us -- especially Jim -- but kept rearing his head to talk once again. It turned out that DD and Jim had known each other for years as premies, and actually seemed to display a certain begrudging affection for each other in their dueling posts. I was often surprised that DD would return to debate with us, because his apologist posts guaranteed that someone was going to get angry and let fly a ton of bricks at him. But DD gradually became concerned and disturbed about EV and M's refusal to deal with the Jagdeo issue. I guess it just went downhill from there. We've learned that several EV monitors left the cult as a result of reading the forum. Shining the light on the dark corners of the cult, M and those around him allows premies to make an informed choice about the direction of their lives. DD is but one recent example. DD, I suspect you don't want to be held out as a poster boy for the forum. I just want to extend my best wishes to you for the courage you have shown by making this choice, and telling us about it. I really do hope, when you have some emotional distance from all of this, that you post a Journey. We will all learn from it. Marianne

Subject: Bullshit! From: Jim To: Marianne Date Posted: Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 21:26:56 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I completely resent the accusation that Dog took 'loads of crap' from us, especially me. And I also think Dog's 'exness' is as meaningful as his 'premieness' when it comes right down to it. You'd have to know the guy to know what I mean. Ask Pullaver.

Subject: Re: Dogshit! From: Pullaver To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, Feb 28, 2002 at 08:37:38 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Well if nothing else, Dog and ChrisP are coming over here on Saturday nite to quaff a few ale and watch the Passages Video (not the Atlanta training video that I thought ChrisP had). Over the phone it sounded like dear ol' dog had indeed removed his master's leash - turns out it wasn't a leash at all but one of those nifty 'convertable' jackets - but anyway he did try one more time to sell me on the Landmark Forum, so I might have to get out my doggy pooper scooper. I'll report back after the hangover.

Subject: How dare they! From: PeeWee Herman To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, Feb 28, 2002 at 07:34:38 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I agree.That is really harsh.I mean Jim has always been the milk of human kindness ,the font of generosity and the source of all wisdom.To suggest that he has actually thrown crap in anyones direction ,well God Marrianne ,I am totally flabbergasted!

Subject: Re: Bullshit! From: Marianne To: Jim Date Posted: Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 21:43:44 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'Loads of crap' is a term of art. Jeez Jim, I thought my post made it clear you guys were friends. He said he's an ex. I take it at face value. Marianne

Subject: Re: Bullshit! From: Jim To: Marianne Date Posted: Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 21:50:11 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Marianne, Dog doesn't use words the way you and I might. Ask him what he means but if it's anything like what he meant, say a week or so ago, he's pretty much where he's been for a while now. To his credit, it's not the same place he started when he posted here but it's a far cry from truly having walked. Are we friends, Dog and I? Yeah, sure, to some extent. I miss the guy's wry sense of humour which was always good for a laugh at the back of the satsang hall. He's a decent guy who loves his family. That's saying a lot. But he also drives me nuts in this particular medium where we actually try to make sense with one another. Dog's more prone to preach than to reason. Here at least.

Subject: Jim, I've walked [nt] From: Deputy Dog To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, Feb 28, 2002 at 00:17:27 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Walked, yes, but how far? From: Jim To: Deputy Dog Date Posted: Thurs, Feb 28, 2002 at 12:47:22 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Glad you see it that way, Dog. I'm just curious, though, what do you think Knolwedge is? What's a Master? That kind of stuff. Not that you have to answer to me, of course. But, if we are going to talk about it, that's what I'd want to know. Walked, yes, but how far?

Subject: Re: Walked, yes, but how far? From: Deputy Dog To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, Feb 28, 2002 at 22:46:10 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Slowly but surely I came to believe the stories about Maharaji on EPO. This resulted in my gradually starting to lose respect for him. I then began having difficulty reconciling the beautiful experiences I had in meditation with the man in the video, telling me how to live my life. The cognitive dissonance created by this conflict became so intense that it actually started to affect my health. And, to make a long story short, the whole process eventually came to a boiling point. In recent years Maharaji has said, “If you like it, fine. If you don’t like it, walk.” A day or so ago, I suddenly became aware that I don’t like it. So I walked. To those who choose to continue following Maharaji, I wish you well. I can’t any more. IMO Knowledge is just four meditation techniques and a Master is a teacher. Maharaji has nothing more to teach me. Does that answer your questions counsellor?

Subject: Good one ......... From: Jim To: Deputy Dog Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 11:54:59 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dog, That's great and I truly am happy for you. Honestly.

Subject: Well said Deputy Dog From: Richard To: Deputy Dog Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 11:41:35 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Your story verbatim could also be my story, the story of many forum regulars and many, many others we may never hear from. All the best on your path as it takes another turn. I hope to hear more of your progress.

Subject: Enjoying the walk? From: JohnT To: Deputy Dog Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 08:36:23 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: DD: IMO Knowledge is just four meditation techniques and a Master is a teacher. Maharaji has nothing more to teach me. One of the things that shocked me about the man Rawat purporting to be a meditation teacher is his 'one size fits all' approach. Not everyone is physiologically able to do the nectar technique, but I do not think the Rat has ever modified his, uh, teachings to reflect this fact. In my view, a guy who does not acknowlege that people are different -- cannot even understand that not all tongues can do that -- well, he's no teacher. A poseur, perhaps. But teacher? Nope. JohnT - never a premie

Subject: A premie's answer to JohnT From: Jethro To: JohnT Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 13:05:11 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You see John, anyone who understands that nectar only comes through the grace of maharaji knows that it doesn't matter if you can get your tongue back or not. That goes for all the other techiques too. (Deaf, blind, without hands etc). THAT is the answer I would haver given you when I was a premie. Now that 'grace' and magic are no longer in vogue, I wonder how a premie would answer your question. bye for now Jethro

Subject: Now I've seen the light From: JohnT To: Jethro Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 17:40:48 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The trouble is that if you believe something nonsensical, then no amount of sense can shift it. As for Rawat's ineptitude as an instructor, I think your contemporary on-message premie says the feeling is what matters, and you can get that by worshipping (oops, I mean loving) the Fat Rat. Yeuch! But I've seen the light, Jethro, I really have. I was lying abed flat on my back, very relaxed and almost asleep when there it was -- large golden glowing bright. I felt no emotional affect, only a sort of mild interest. I've heard the divine music too, but perhaps that was something I ate. JohnT - never a premie

Subject: Re: Now I've seen the light From: Jethro To: JohnT Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 17:59:26 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'when there it was -- large golden glowing bright. I felt no emotional affect, only a sort of mild interest. I've heard the divine music too, but perhaps that was something I ate. ' Well I've met many people who have seen light and heard music etc. But, as a premie, I knew that the light they see is only the (false)light of mind. Only maharaji can reveal the true light and the true joy. Know warrimean??

Subject: Good for you, Dog From: Deborah To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, Feb 28, 2002 at 14:59:32 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Don't let Jim pee on your hydrant. I did think his rebuttal about walking 'how far' was funny, though. After a couple of two-fours with those hausers this weekend, I'll bet you'll be asking What Forum? cheers, deborah, who hopes you all get a chance to visit the botanical city of Victoria some time soon p.s. Jim, I didn't know you knew Dog. When you discover this?

Subject: Congrats, Dog! [nt] From: Francesca To: Deputy Dog Date Posted: Thurs, Feb 28, 2002 at 12:29:35 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Congratulations & Celebrations! [nt] From: JohnT To: Deputy Dog Date Posted: Thurs, Feb 28, 2002 at 09:16:44 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Good! From: Silvia To: Deputy Dog Date Posted: Thurs, Feb 28, 2002 at 03:38:27 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: If it's true, it makes me very glad, honestly Dog. I saw you here for two years claming everybody needs a guru. Cheers! ())

Subject: And, I for one am glad you have, Pooch From: PatC To: Deputy Dog Date Posted: Thurs, Feb 28, 2002 at 02:59:51 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You know I don't like a lot of your spiritual stuff mostly because it isn't innovative but merely rehashes old stuff which we all know because we were all premies who thought just like you once. I also think talking too subjectively does not suit the forum and gives cult apologists a foot in the door to introduce their particular brand of fuzzy language - Maharajism. But neither do I expect you to think like me. I don't care one jot that we disagree as long as we agree on one thing and that is that we have both gotten out from under the stifling influence of Rev Rawat and are thinking more and more for ourselves everyday. I also think that Jim does feel concern for you. To me he is a very good sounding board for my untested ideas. If I don't succeed in communicating with him then I know that I'm not making myself clear as he's s stickler for clear thinking and good writing. I wish you well.

Subject: Off Topic Forum Technical Question From: JHB To: All Date Posted: Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 02:54:11 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yesterday, for this forum, and for the other Hotboards forum, all the posts appeared as unread. Does anyone know how marking posts as read works, and was this something I did, or something Hotboards did? The last time this happened was when Hotboards was down, so I assume then it was something they did. Did this happen to everyone else yesterday? John.

Subject: I wondered why From: Sir Dave To: JHB Date Posted: Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 09:17:41 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I hadn't seen the change and then I've just logged on a few minutes ago (2-10 pm GMT) and all the Hotboards forums have the visited links removed. Why 24 hours after it happened to you, I wonder? And indeed, how?

Subject: Re: Off Topic Forum Technical Question From: Livia To: JHB Date Posted: Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 08:25:47 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi, the same thing has just happened on my computer - I just came here for the first time since Sunday and all the posts are blue again. Thought it was my computer playing up but it must be Hotboards. Cheers Livia

Subject: Re: Off Topic Forum Technical Question From: PatC To: JHB Date Posted: Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 03:12:21 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yes, all previously read posts appeared as unread. Hotboards probably reloaded the cache containing the previous 24 hours data. It occured on Chatroom and LG too. Either that or our computers' caches had their memories wiped clean coincidentally. Great computers process alike.

Subject: Miami Community Newsletter From: Sulla To: All Date Posted: Tues, Feb 26, 2002 at 17:58:34 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Subj: Miami Community Newsletter Date: 2/26/2002 12:25:06 PM Eastern Standard Time From:    infoevsofl@earthlink.net (InfoFlorida) Reply-to:    infoevsofl@earthlink.net To:    infoevsofl@earthlink.net File: winmail.dat (2972 bytes) DL Time (57600 bps): < 1 minute Miami Community Newsletter Elan Vital transition This letter is to let you know of transitions which are underway in Miami regarding Elan Vital transition. In an effort to downsize and operate more efficiently, Elan Vital is trimming its staff and closing its branches in New York, Los Angeles, Miami, and Denver. As a result, contributions to the local account will no longer be tax deductible. Opportunities to come together locally and listen to Maharaji’s message will continue occasionally at different locations. It is hoped, therefore, that those who wish to support local efforts will continue to contribute with the same enthusiasm that has allowed people in Miami area to enjoy Maharaji’s message. For instance, financial resources will continue to be used for the rental of hotels or other meeting spaces, as often as finances permit. A new local entity, as yet unnamed, is being created to receive local contributions. It is a strong statement of many of us keep interest in keeping current with Maharaji. During this time, many of us have enjoyed the pleasure of participating in Maharaji’s efforts to make Knowledge available, as well as enjoying his inspiration. It is our hope that these pleasures will continue throughout 2002, and for the rest of our lives. Amaroo 2002 Information Maharaji has accepted an invitation to attend a three-day event at Amaroo from Friday 19th April to Sunday 21st April 2002. This event is for people who have received the techniques of Self-Knowledge. This is a regional event with an Australian, New Zealand and Pacific focus. International guests are warmly invited to attend. The information pack will be available on the 22nd February. The pre-payment option that has been open for the past few weeks will close on 22nd February.  Thank you for the wonderful support for this initiative. Event and accommodation registration will open for Australia, New Zealand, Malaysia, Taiwan, Fiji, Hong Kong, Singapore, Japan, Korea, Philippines, Tahiti and Thailand on the 1st March. For people from other countries registration will open on the 16th March. Registration will close on the 31st March. Keep in touch on www.amaroo.org for updates and information on the event. At that site, you will find all the information you need concerning the event. All registration will be via the internet. Miami Communications Team      Info Miami infoevsofl@earthlink.net

Subject: Spreading Knowledge? From: Livia To: Sulla Date Posted: Thurs, Feb 28, 2002 at 07:26:53 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Er, what happened to Maharaji's agya from Shri Hans Ji to spread the Knowledge to the world? Funny way of going about it....

Subject: Re: Spreading Knowledge? From: Opie To: Livia Date Posted: Thurs, Feb 28, 2002 at 08:44:31 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Er, what happened to Maharaji's agya from Shri Hans Ji to spread the Knowledge to the world? Funny way of going about it.... Livia Judging from the various ramblings from Charanand and Yoram over the last few months there is a sense that M feels that he has achieved and completed this 'agya'. The thinking is that he has given the opportunity for all peoples, via their thirst blah blah, to receive K by him having been to over 80 countries (or whatever number was quoted). Pure revisionism of course but this does seem to be the line that is being pushed out to the PWK 'community'. It goes wihout saying that the PWKs are falling in line with this new understanding. It helps enormously in dealing with all the cognitive dissonance they are experiencing. I bet a similar line will be taken in the upcoming TV spectacular spoken about previously. It makes a mockery of our previous understanding that all peoples WILL receive K and neatly sidesteps the question of China where over one third of the worlds population resides. But who cares about facts huh? Its all in the heart and breath man! love - Opie

Subject: Re: Spreading Knowledge? From: OTS To: Opie Date Posted: Thurs, Feb 28, 2002 at 11:26:59 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Do these numbers add up to spinning the fact that M has successfully informed the world about K? 4,500 attend each of the largest events in 2001 with M at Miami Beach, Florida, USA & Amaroo, Queensland, Australia. (source: Life's Great website) 6.4 million people in the U.S. watch the Glutton Bowl on Fox TV (on against Feb. 3, 2002 SuperBowl) in which contestants ate sticks of butter and jars of mayonaise. (source: 2/26/02 Nielsen Ratings report)

Subject: He already said he did it... From: Cynthia To: OTS Date Posted: Thurs, Feb 28, 2002 at 15:25:25 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It was a couple-three years ago in a live satellite feed from god knows where. Maharaji said, (paraphrased)...now that I've brought k to the entire world, it's time for phase II...(which I assume is time for him) Heard it with my own ears...and it was live.

Subject: Very True From: Joe To: OTS Date Posted: Thurs, Feb 28, 2002 at 12:43:29 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks, OTS, great illustration. It was in the Atlanta Training video that I saw Maharaji for the first time admit that propagation has gone down the toilet at least in America. Of course, this he blamed on the Mahatmas and the premies who have so many 'concepts.' Being the utter incompetent he of course provided not on shred of instruction as to how to correct this terrible problem, except to scare the premies even more into being afraid of saying the wrong thing.

Subject: Re: Spreading Knowledge? From: Opie To: OTS Date Posted: Thurs, Feb 28, 2002 at 12:38:31 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Brilliant analysis OTS - LOL We were discussing the Mormons over lunch today and, apparantly, they believe only 144,000 of them can ever make it to Heaven. So they all better be real good to have a fighting chance of squeezing past those pearly gates. Perhaps Marahaji is also trying to create such exclusivity? If so then he must be considered a great success. 4,500 huh?! :) Opie

Subject: Hilarious! [nt] From: Jim To: OTS Date Posted: Thurs, Feb 28, 2002 at 12:06:24 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: The techniques of Self Knowledge From: Emily Litella To: Sulla Date Posted: Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 20:34:27 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: What's all this talk about 'Self-knowledge'....I remember it being called the 'Divine Knowledge', hmmmmm.....little too strong a word for the new millenium crowd? eh? Toned it down a bit I see....Self Knowledge...hmmm...getting to know about ones self.....C'mon maharaji, show some balls....show folks you have a backbone.....call it like it is...like it always was...'Divine Knowledge'...'Seeing, Hearing, Tasting GOD'...That's what it was called when we received it, not 'Self-Knowledge'...that's some sort of New-aged schtick...something you expect to see a guest on Oprah talking about....You keep adjusting things to satisfy your critics and you'll lose your loyal following (whats left, that is). In an effort to downsize and operate more efficiently, Elan Vital is trimming its staff and closing its branches in New York, Los Angeles, Miami, and Denver. Oh.....nevermind.

Subject: It's been said here before From: Richard To: Sulla Date Posted: Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 14:00:23 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Its been predicted by myself and others that Elan Vital would be flushed and M would emerge as a hero for having gotten rid of that bad, bad organization. After all, most PWKs who will even admit to there being something wrong will say it's EV's fault. M is never the one at fault. By getting rid of that horrible old organization, M takes all the credit for fixing things but none of the blame for it having gotten so bad. On a personal note, I sincerely hope all those loyal EV people land on their feet. It's tough to give your heart and soul only to have the rug pulled out. I know some of them as friends and wish them all well.

Subject: Richard, land of their feet where? From: Cynthia To: Richard Date Posted: Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 17:05:16 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Richard, I've been pondering this downsizing thing. Will m get rid of the non-profit status? Do the PAMs have something similar to golden parachutes? That certainly would land them on their feet financially, anyway. I've been pondering this new revision of the old DLM. It will be interesting to see what 'evolves.' Love, Cynthia

Subject: Re: land on their feet where? From: Richard To: Cynthia Date Posted: Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 17:28:36 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: No golden baragons, I'm afraid, but hopefully this will open up new unforseen opportunities for the EV retirees. When I moved to Miami from a disbanded DLM IHQ in 1979, I had hopes of being as involved with DECA as I had been at headquarters in Denver. Because I was not married to the woman I was living with (i.e. living in sin.), the door was closed to my involvement. This was part of DECA encouraging divorce for anyone wanting to really dedicate. I ended up working waiter jobs and did picture framing at Aberbach's on Miami Beach for premies and other similar groups like Mhuktananda and Krishna. I eventually got back into graphic design and built a business that I still do today. Bought a house and got two cats in '83, got married in '84 and made friends that had never heard of M. You know, just like normal folks. Having the door to M's world closed to me allowed other doors to open. Those doors led to freedom. One must eventually realize that life goes on beyond M's world.

Subject: Re: land on their feet where? From: Cynthia To: Richard Date Posted: Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 17:36:34 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Well, good then. I hope those who are part of the big lay-off can find something to do that is not m related. It's good to have friends who are not premies, nor have ever been, too. I just hope there aren't a lot of 'off-shoots' of meditation-team training types. We have enough of those around, IMO. Same thing happened to me. I got married, worked toward a career which wasn't exactly what I wanted, but proved profitable and taught me a lot about living in the real world with regular people. Just regular folks. That is what I like...

Subject: So EV is 'downsizing,' hmmm? From: Gregg To: Sulla Date Posted: Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 11:54:07 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Reminds me of another 'downsizing' in the name of 'efficiency' in Denver and other cities, this one years and years ago, by another seventies cult - this one a political cult: the Socialist Workers' Party (SWP). They still sell their paper (Socialist Worker) at demonstrations. Their fate is EV's: a dwindling to a very small group of hardcore believers. EV's future is not quite as predictable as all that, though, because everything rests on the whims of one man, Prem Pal Rawat. Of course, since his whims basically run in the direction of not rocking the boat in order that all his materialistic whims be perpetually satisfied, I think we'll see the cult last at least as long as Prem Pal lives. And maybe longer, as some have speculated here, under the direction of what's her name? Wali? Wabi? I dunno...she was after my time.

Subject: Hi Gregg --OT From: Marianne To: Gregg Date Posted: Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 13:43:35 (EST) Email Address: MarianneDB@aol.com Message: Hey there Gregg! How's the Rockies this time of year? I've misplaced your email address. Got some news for you. Much love, Marianne

Subject: This reminds me of the 80s but From: Jean-Michel To: Gregg Date Posted: Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 12:21:33 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The situation is a bit different now. EV was/is already non-existent, no members, no legal entities. What's going to be left ?

Subject: Re: This reminds me of the 80s but From: Betchya To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 03:59:00 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: No one to sue.

Subject: A bit like the 80s From: Joe To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 13:18:06 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Up until the early 80s all the local communities in the USA were just branch offices of Elan Vital. In around 1981 that changes, and all the local associations stopped being officially Elan Vital and got their own names. We were told to make them innocuous. I remember Miami became the 'Palm Coast Association' and San Francisco became the 'Bay Area Community Association.' (I personally thought that one up, and got a fictitious name reserved, etc., and was very pleased at how utterly meaningless it was.) Anyhow, many of those names stayed around for a long time. I guess at some point there were a few 'offical' Elan Vital branches in the cities mentioned (Denver and Miami being obvious ones because those were headquarters cities at certain times). It appears those communities were able to use the tax excempt status of EV to take deductions on donations used locally. Well, I guess all the EV entities are now disappearing. I'm sure all the staff has been laid off. This is a money thing, and not much else, IMO. What will be left? Visions to sell videos and divine trinkets and to make propaganda material, that will also be money-makers as premies and aspirants will have to pay for them, and to do whatever satellite transmissions there are, and which Maharaji can also make money from. That's about it, I guess.

Subject: A Brave New World Order From: Pullaver To: Joe Date Posted: Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 17:21:21 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Well, I guess you guys haven't got it yet. In this high tech era of auto-Knowledge - the Knowledge CD ROM; satellite transmissions of the Speaker; and the Speaker's auto-designed interactive Website, there is no need for hierarchical organizations. We're talking Digital Dada here people. CyberMeister. Big-Brother-Borg. All systems are henceforth on-line, no need to ever leave the comfort of your entertainment center again. You need inspiration - dial-up the web-site. You want to listen and watch the Master - turn on the tube. You wanna donate - you just digitally transfer funds from your account. It's so easy. It's just you and your digital interface.

Subject: So most of the human race are excluded then? From: JHB To: Pullaver Date Posted: Thurs, Feb 28, 2002 at 00:20:31 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Those without the technology clearly do not require true inner peace that comes from self-knowledge in Maharaji's cowardly new world. John.

Subject: Re: So most of the human race are excluded then? From: Pullaver ZX3000 To: JHB Date Posted: Thurs, Feb 28, 2002 at 18:46:49 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Well, those without the technology have no money and therefore are of no use to CyberMeister.

Subject: just wants to run a little MOM & POP cult [nt] From: The Maharaji of Malibu To: Sulla Date Posted: Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 11:02:20 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Now is a bussiness? From: salsa To: Sulla Date Posted: Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 09:51:15 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: In an effort to downsize and operate more efficiently, Elan Vital is trimming its staff and closing its branches in New York, Los Angeles, Miami, and Denver. As a result, contributions to the local account will no longer be tax deductible. Very interesting. A new local entity, as yet unnamed, is being created to receive local contributions. CLEARLY, ANOTHER CULT LEADER GETTING RICHER AND RICHER EVERY DAY. ALWAYS A NEW SCAM, A NEW LOOP.... THE GREEDY BASTARD. I WANT MY MONEY BACK!

Subject: Re: Miami Community Newsletter From: WMary To: Sulla Date Posted: Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 07:13:31 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: .....financial resources will continue to be used for the rental of hotels or other meeting spaces,as often as finances permit. read:rental of hotels, meeting spaces, yacht, Gulfstream V costs... as finances permit A new local entity, as yet unnamed, is being created to receive local contributions read:a new method is being devised to launder cash contrubutions from you premies to maintain the above mentioned items. Come on premies, especially you lurkers, WAKE UP, smell the coffee. The ship (Elan Vital) has had a little leak (EPO, F7) and every attempt to patch the leak (CAC, Hack) has not been effective. The bilge pumps (Invite-only Events, Videos-especially 'Passages') no longer work, not everyone is buying it, too transparent. She's listing heavily to the starboard side. Time to bale out (pun intended); Downsize. Circle the wagons. Protect the queen (king) bee. Hold your breath. 'Hey Noah!' 'What?' 'How long can you tread water?'

Subject: Good work, Sulla From: Francesca :~) To: Sulla Date Posted: Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 00:30:34 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: This goes along with some stuff I have heard through the grapevine. Thanks, F

Subject: Got tosue before he runs away with all the money! From: Sulla To: Francesca :~) Date Posted: Thurs, Feb 28, 2002 at 11:45:31 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I need some of it!!!

Subject: Question: What do you do From: Pullaver To: Sulla Date Posted: Tues, Feb 26, 2002 at 22:23:26 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: when your last international event at Amaroo was a numbers disaster? You follow up with a 'regional program' and allow other regions to attend, space permitting (hardehardehardwar). Yet another scamarama to create: a] a false sense of exclusivity; b] a false sense of clamouring to get in; c] a new opportunity to charge exorbitant prices because of a manufactured a] and b]. Oh well, the more Maharaji's world changes the more it remains the same.

Subject: M just changes the name of the scam From: salsa To: Pullaver Date Posted: Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 10:11:27 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: but never the mechanism of scamming: DUO; Divine Light Mission; Elan Vital, now he is going to give the scam main headquarter another name! It always fun to watch. Who and what can stop him? ())

Subject: Re: dwindling From: Beverly To: salsa Date Posted: Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 13:19:44 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I am surprised no one has mentioned the 'dwindling' tv broadcasts yet. An e-mail arrived for my partner saying Thursday's broadcast will end and Sundays will be at 5pm and yadda yadda yadda...somehow I am sure ev folks (the 4 left) will add the positive 'we are growing - send us your money' spin to this. I smile smuggly as I see the empire begin to fade.

Subject: Are there any good religions? From: PatC To: All Date Posted: Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 23:10:54 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: This is kind of On Topic but I posted it in the Sat Chit Chatroom because it was a response to John T over there. If you like arguing about religion come over and add your two-cents worth. I'm hoping for a good fight which I miss now that they are verboten over here and religion is a sure bet for a barny. Are there any good religions? 66.37.7.139/plus/plus.mirage?who=louella&id=12278.600382174856

Subject: Yes! Hinduism and Islam From: Jim To: PatC Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 11:58:49 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: They just have to sort things out a bit. The west has a long MATERIAL leg but .... www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/asiapcf/south/03/01/india.train/index.html

Subject: PS India is much more enlightened than West From: PatC To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 14:53:00 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I mean poor Maharaji has to live in a 25 million dollar hovel on a hill in Malibu which does not even have an outhouse. He has to shit in a field unless he doesn't mind messing up the gold-plated toilets.

Subject: Hinduism is winning. Score 158 to 58 From: PatC To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 14:41:33 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Muslims killed only 58 Hindu infidels but the latter have scored 158 dead Muslims sofar. The Hindu Infidels are a much better team.

Subject: Sorry, I meant Judaism and Islam From: Jim To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 11:56:04 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Shalom, Salam ... so long as we all understand each other. That's why they call it the Holy Land www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/meast/03/01/mideast/index.html

Subject: Damn! Imeant Christianity From: Jim To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 11:58:51 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Sorry, I keep getting confused here God Bless the Child ... sg.news.yahoo.com/020227/1/2jv1q.html

Subject: Re: Damn! Imeant Christianity From: PatC To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 16:18:25 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Well, if the pope allowed condoms he might lessen the abortion problem as well as AIDS in Africa. But a more pertinent Christian problem is Protestantism vs Catholicism in Northern Ireland. What's the score there? I mean, how many dead on either side? But this and the Holey Land problem probably belong on the Chit Chat forum. It's politics isn't it?

Subject: Re: Are there any good religions? From: bolly shri To: PatC Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 07:35:04 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: today is womens world day of prayer and lots of people do that especially people like my friend k who came to england and while she wasn't looking the western powers mascerated her home town of bagdad today mr blair has just agreed with w they need another seeing to. i don't know if there are any good religions but there are good people thanklike k who pray because theres fuck all left to hang onto if you have a similarly directed hobby include her in your 'prayers' thanks bolly shri

Subject: In a word, 'no'... From: Nigel To: PatC Date Posted: Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 15:12:37 (EST) Email Address: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk Message: ...if that religion requires either belief in 'facts' or phenomena for which there is no evidence. All religions, surely by definition, carry that requirement: if they do not involve blind faith, they would more appropriately be regarded as philosophies or sciences. So my point-blank answer is: 'There are no good religions'. Whether or not religious people or movements can do good is a different question, and its answer obviously 'Yes'. But then you have to factor in September 11, the crusades, Waco, Jonestown etc. As I see it, you can't allow any religion to claim a causal role in whatever good is carried out in it's name whilst washing its hands of the evil that is similarly done. So here's two follow-up questions: can anybody think of a single humanitarian or altruistic act which can only come about because of a person's religious beliefs? - or an act of evil which could only be, or has only ever been performed by atheists? Probably the biggest success any religion could claim would lie in its providing a comforting world-view with its promises of a hereafter. Good? - Hmm, it possibly feels good, but at what price? Many say 'K' make them feel good, but we all know the costs of wandering into M's fairytale world. Nah... a pox on all your temples, I say!

Subject: I think religions have been good From: JHB To: Nigel Date Posted: Thurs, Feb 28, 2002 at 00:47:52 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: In the evolution of human society, although religions have clearly been behind terrible behaviour, they have also created a social structure, and established ethical behaviour where otherwise our level of intellectual development may not have provided reasons to behave well. For instance, we can now come up with lots of very good reasons to obey the commanment 'thou shalt not kill', but for a primitive human who can gain some personal advantage by killing his neighbour, the obvious response to this commandment without the force of religious belief would be 'Why not?'. I think we're getting to the point of growing out of religions. Another thousand years should do it:) John.

Subject: The Spanish Inquisition continues From: Lesley To: JHB Date Posted: Thurs, Feb 28, 2002 at 15:15:45 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi John, I really don't think there is any evidence that religions have stopped people killing eachother, quite the reverse. It seems to me that apart from immediate practical reasons why a person might decide not to kill someone, the only other thing that might stop them is their conscience. Their conscience will tell them that the act will create a lot of bad feeling. And religions have a remarkable way of coopting people's consciences. As Joe states, when people group together, bigger things will be accomplished, and some of the biggest religions have the bloodiest records Which rather highlights my point: when people group together, honesty is the best policy, and religions are not exactly honest are they. Priests don't get into the pulpit and start a prayer with 'If we are right in our theory that there is a benign compassionate creator, I hope you can hear what I am about to say' Noooo, they start 'Dear God'. And off we go again.

Subject: 2 follow up questions From: PatD To: Nigel Date Posted: Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 16:20:12 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: So here's two follow-up questions: can anybody think of a single humanitarian or altruistic act which can only come about because of a person's religious beliefs? Mother Theresa. or an act of evil which could only be, or has only ever been performed by atheists? Lenin/Stalin/Hitler. Sorry to muddy the waters,but I'm against the atheist religion too.

Subject: Re: 2 follow up questions From: Livia To: PatD Date Posted: Thurs, Feb 28, 2002 at 07:36:48 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Sorry to sully your view of Mother Theresa but I don't think she was quite as whiter than white as all that. Apparently some the centres she ran were filthy - way filthier than other centres of their type. And she was rigidly anti-contraception in her views, which meant that she was opposed to contraceptive advice which could have truly helped some of the people under her auspices. Her adherence was probably more to a rigid sort of Catholicism than a genuine and unbiased love of humankind. I know it's a sort of heresy to criticise her, but I never got a particularly good feeling about the woman. Love, Livia

Subject: Christopher Hitchens From: Joe To: Livia Date Posted: Thurs, Feb 28, 2002 at 19:18:58 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: He's got a great book on Mother Theresa, which I haven't read, but I understand it really chops her down to her true size.

Subject: Re: 2 follow up questions From: PatD To: Livia Date Posted: Thurs, Feb 28, 2002 at 16:13:51 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: yeah,you're probably right...there goes another icon. At least she didn't set up the machinery of an atheist state which killed 100 million people over 80 years,unlike Vladimir IIych(Ulanov) or whatever the bastard used to be known as. Mother Theresa never got people to dig the Volga Canal with teaspoons. Sorry that was Stalin, Lenin is the untouchable High Priest of the Atheist Religion. Watch the parking meters. Love to you too.

Subject: Sounds to me like... From: Nigel To: PatD Date Posted: Thurs, Feb 28, 2002 at 17:16:39 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ..is the thing you hate more than religion, Pat. You'll find monsters of every ideological stripe - even centrist Lib/Dems (hang on, I'll think of one... ..David Owen?) So Stalin was more evil than Mrs Theresa? I reckon you might be right. Crikey. Next you'll be telling me Bin laden is more evil than Richard Dawkins - or vice versa. As for for 'high priests of atheism? - For gawd's sake... (yawn)

Subject: David Owen.... From: PatD To: Nigel Date Posted: Thurs, Feb 28, 2002 at 19:05:42 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ...you mean the Top Ranker,forgive the rhyming slang. OK, I'll concede on M.Theresa,but never on Lenin.

Subject: PatD / Joe / JHB From: NIgel To: PatD Date Posted: Thurs, Feb 28, 2002 at 03:01:25 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Several points, Pat - I don't hold with your examples (with the possible exception of Stalin). Hitler was nominally Catholic (remember that thing about 'Kinder, Kuche, Kirche'?), and at height of his tenure was also effectively running a devotional cult of his own. And I disagree that Lenin was evil. All I have read suggests an idealistic, humanist with the greater good as an objective. I don't know how far the subsequent corruption of those ideals by others was foreseeable, but I don't see that was part of either Lenin's dream or intentions. Stalin was certainly a monster - but I don't see how his atheism was a necessary part of that. As for Mother Theresa - did you ever see Christopher Hitchens' expose? Looks to me like the religious aspect of her work was counterproductive: in many cases (reported by volunteer helpers) she was more concerned with saving the souls of the down-and-outs rather than saving their lives (in one case cited, preferring a teenager in her care to die in her mission rather than send him to the local hospital which could have provided cheap, effective treatment). As for atheism being a religion. I think that is a nonsense, for precisely the reasons Jim gives Sir Dave lower down. J & J: I am not sure there isn't a 'cart before horse' aspect to your arguments. We know from history that religious belief is hardly a deterrent from killing others. If religious people perform altruistic acts, I would argue that is because they are people, not because they are religious. One could argue for hours over the question of whether or not any action is truly altruistic ie., has only the welfare of others at heart (if giving feels nice for the doer, then the doer is also a beneficiary), but, either way, I am sure those actions are simply a byproduct of our evolving as social animals.

Subject: Pragmatic religion From: Joe To: NIgel Date Posted: Thurs, Feb 28, 2002 at 12:23:48 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: We know from history that religious belief is hardly a deterrent from killing others. It depends on the religious belief, doesn't it? Quakers for example, have a pretty good record I think. If religious people perform altruistic acts, I would argue that is because they are people, not because they are religious I agree, and I think that's what I said. I was speaking of the social value of religions, as a means of organizing the power of 'people' to do altruistic things. There is a certain 'critical' mass advantage that comes from the larger group. No, I don't think that's inherently a religious phenomenon, but sometimes there aren't very good alterantives, so in that sense the 'religion' can be a good thing, and I think history demonstrates that it can be.

Subject: Don't really disagree, as such.... From: Nigel To: Joe Date Posted: Thurs, Feb 28, 2002 at 16:48:59 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: But I see the religious groups who are socially functional as merely demonstrating the value of socially functional groups - not religion. Subtract the religion and the good remains. For me, the theistic / magical thinking / fatalistic soundtrack is, at best, an irritation - at worst a means of diverting good intentions to unbelievable evil. (No examples needed, surely..?) Quakers? - Don't know enough about them to comment. But from those I know who have attended meetings, I am not sure you could even call them a religion. They don't seem to presume to know or teach anything unfounded. (I am also not sure what Quakers are actually for - but they make decent porridge, I guess. What is the point of Quakers, exactly?) PS: Are you still coming to the UK this year? PPS: was Lenin a good guy or not? I need help here... ;)

Subject: Social Function of Religion From: Joe To: Nigel Date Posted: Thurs, Feb 28, 2002 at 17:41:59 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Nigel, I agree it is theoretically possible that non-religious movements could do the same thing religions do, but I think especially in this culture social institutions (and civil society in general) are in a great state of decline in the USA. There is very little of it left, as we are encouraged to do little more than work, consume and watch television. So, that kind of increases the value of the institutions that are left, and unfortunately, religions, in the form of churches or religious groups are one form of institution that remains. Obviously, you are right that there are huge downsides to religions as well. The Quakers are Christian, and they do stand for non-violence, and lots of conscientious objectors were Quaker, but then Richard Nixon was raised Quaker, so there you have it. Yes, still coming to the UK, arriving on May 26 and leaving on June 15. One week will be in Ireland, at least, but otherwise we are, as expected, a bit unplanned. I haven't heard about any sort of Latvian event, either in London or destinations North. Was Lenin a good guy? Do you really think I'm going to step into that one? :) But I would have to say, on balance, no. Good idea, horrible execution. [Hey, think I can sneak this in without raising Jim's blood pressure 25 points? I'm going to see Noam Chomsky on March 21, plus just got his new book on 911, which I'm enjoying.]

Subject: Chomsky From: Livia To: Joe Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 03:22:15 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Joe, sorry to go off topic here, but what is Chomsky's take on 911? Also, is Chomsky sort of persona nongrata in the US? I know he's not as well known over there as he is here (England). Best, Livia

Subject: Re: Chomsky From: Joe To: Livia Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 11:56:20 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'll tell you more after I finish the book. I think on 3/21 when he speaks in San Francisco, he's going to be mainly addressing the Middle East and the Israel/Palestinian issues. One of the major sponsors is the Middle East Chidren's Alliance. Actually, Chomsky is well known in the USA, but may be more well known in other countries. The US media market is so huge and so corporate-controlled that there isn't much diversity of opinion presented anymore, which is one of Chomsky's points (and as Bandikian, Zinn, Barsamian, McChesney, Norman Soloman, and many others have pointed out.) It's the alternative media, what there is left of it, that people like Chomsky can get heard in the US. He seems to have a large and enthusiastic following in Canada, that really makes Jim nuts. But his books are always big sellers in the USA and he seems to come out with them about twice a year. He writes all the time for Z Magazine and The Progressive. About the only radio I hear him on regularly is Amy Goodman's show, Democracy Now on Pacifica Radio, which is heard on about 60 radio stations in the US. He teaches at MIT, lives outside Boston.

Subject: He sure as hell does drive me nuts From: Jim To: Joe Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 12:15:38 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Chomsky's take on 9/11 is crazy and disgusting. As I said here once before, I had the 'pleasure' of reading his fast book of lectures on the subject at an airport in December. Typical Chomsky, he very quickly and summarily glosses over the harm done to the U.S. which, of course, he really had to concede for once and gets down to the business he enjoys so much, making his case that the U.S. is an evil empire. Chomsky is a real hero on campuses here because he's tapped into a real goldmind of anti-Americanism. When I was a kid that sentiment was nothing but a reasonable sense of begrudging admiration for America's strengths and a healthy competitive spirit such as exemplified by the big Canadian rush over the olympic hockey wins. Little brother kicks big brother's ass for a change, kind of thing. Chomsky, though, has really done a number here. Remember the women's studies prof from the University of British Columbia in Vancouver who gave that scandalous speech after 9/11, saying that the States had it coming, etc.? Child of Chomsky, through and through. Pesonally, I hate the guy. No question that he's smart and no question that he's marshalled a ton of facts to play with. However, he's an untrustworthy polemicist who believes that any one who doesn't sahre his specific political ideas, weighted in importance along his very hierarchy, is corrupt. Thus anyone who disagrees with him is either a duped slave or maybe even master in the deception only he and his followers can see through. Anyone who buys into this garbage is ingesting a toxic level of self-righteousness. There should be warnings on the covers of his books.

Subject: Chomsky on 9/11 From: Jim To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 12:25:54 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Here's Chomsky, whose book on the subject Joe is enjoying, the day after the attack: The September 11 attacks were major atrocities. In terms of number of victims they do not reach the level of many others, for example, Clinton's bombing of the Sudan with no credible pretext, destroying half its pharmaceutical supplies and probably killing tens of thousands of people (no one knows, because the US blocked an inquiry at the UN and no one cares to pursue it). Not to speak of much worse cases, which easily come to mind. But that this was a horrendous crime is not in doubt. The primary victims, as usual, were working people: janitors, secretaries, firemen, etc. It is likely to prove to be a crushing blow to Palestinians and other poor and oppressed people. It is also likely to lead to harsh security controls, with many possible ramifications for undermining civil liberties and internal freedom. The events reveal, dramatically, the foolishness of ideas about 'missile defense.' As has been obvious all along, and pointed out repeatedly by strategic analysts, if anyone wants to cause immense damage in the US, including weapons of mass destruction, they are highly unlikely to launch a missile attack, thus guaranteeing their immediate destruction. There are innumerable easier ways that are basically unstoppable. But these events will, nonetheless, be used to increase the pressure to develop these systems and put them into place. 'Defense' is a thin cover for plans for militarization of space, and with good PR, even the flimsiest arguments will carry some weight among a frightened public. In short, the crime is a gift to the hard jingoist right, those who hope to use force to control their domains. That is even putting aside the likely US actions, and what they will trigger -- possibly more attacks like this one, or worse. The prospects ahead are even more ominous than they appeared to be before the latest atrocities. As to how to react, we have a choice. We can express justified horror; we can seek to understand what may have led to the crimes, which means making an effort to enter the minds of the likely perpetrators. If we choose the latter course, we can do no better, I think, than to listen to the words of Robert Fisk, whose direct knowledge and insight into affairs of the region is unmatched after many years of distinguished reporting. Describing 'The wickedness and awesome cruelty of a crushed and humiliated people,' he writes that 'this is not the war of democracy versus terror that the world will be asked to believe in the coming days. It is also about American missiles smashing into Palestinian homes and US helicopters firing missiles into a Lebanese ambulance in 1996 and American shells crashing into a village called Qana and about a Lebanese militia - paid and uniformed by America's Israeli ally - hacking and raping and murdering their way through refugee camps.' And much more. Again, we have a choice: we may try to understand, or refuse to do so, contributing to the likelihood that much worse lies ahead. CP What a guy, huh? www.counterpunch.org/chomskybomb.html

Subject: Re: Chomsky on 9/11 From: Livia To: Jim Date Posted: Sun, Mar 03, 2002 at 08:17:47 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Er, Jim, what exactly is so blasphemous in what Chomsky said the day after 9/11? It's no different to what most people in Europe felt, along with the horror and heartfelt sympathy for the victims. To us, America isn't the centre of the world, and the preservation of the American way of life isn't the only end worth pursuing, foreign policy-wise. I'm afraid Chomsky's right in mentioning the thousands killed in the pursuit of American aims. Do any Americans know or even care how many innocent thousands of Iraqis were killed by American bombs during the Gulf War? Or are Iraqi lives somehow worth less? Why is it so hard for Americans to imagine how it feels from the other side? Admittedly, if the terrorist attack had occurred in London or Paris, our emotions here would have been different, and many of us here discussed this endlessly. But should those feelings negate the need to examine the possible reasons for third world anger towards us? As Chomsky rightly in my view says: 'we have a choice: we may understand, or refuse to do so, contributing to the likelihood that much worse lies ahead.' You only have to look at what's going on in Israel to see the wisdom in this approach. Sharon's answer is to bomb the hell out of all those who support Palestinian terrorism in the aim of shoring up Israel's security. But until the Israeli's address the causes of the Palestinians' rage, that rage just isn't going to go away. And only today I heard some prominent Israeli say that TALKING is what is needed now, otherwise the violence will just go on, and on, and on. And isn't that really what Chomsky is suggesting? Best, Livia

Subject: Let's not do this here From: Jim To: Livia Date Posted: Sun, Mar 03, 2002 at 16:13:19 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Livia, I'm biting my tongue (fingertips?) but we really shouldn't do this here. I think Chomsky's views speak for themselves and I personally find them abhorrent. But if you want to discuss this further, email me. Then, once we're finsihed, you can come back here and tell everyone I was right. :) jimheller@shaw.ca

Subject: Right, we know that. From: Joe To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 12:25:34 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: and everything. And hey, Jim we all know you 'hate' him; you've already said that many, many times --- every time he's ever mentioned on the Forum, I think. We get it Jim. No question about that. I'll try and tell him when I see him on March 21, but he's probably already heard. :) Have you tried taking your blood pressure when you talk about Chomsky? Interesting experiment.

Subject: Just don't pranam, Joe From: Jim To: Joe Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 12:29:29 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Joe, Be careful not to let your self get carried away when you see him, Joe. In spite of everything, he is, after all, just a human being.

Subject: And don't forget your free Chomsky tote-bag From: PatC To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 14:02:37 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Chomsky lectured last week in Berkeley. It cost $50 but you got a free tote-bag with ''Chomsky'' printed on it. Jim, he finds the same adoring anti-American audiences on campuses here too. I had to use my tote-bag as a barf bag. :C) Just kidding I wouldn't waste $50. He's an opportunistic demagogue preaching to his choir.

Subject: Grow up Pat. From: Joe To: PatC Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 16:20:06 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I will be in the audience but I am not anti-American and that is simplistic bullshit you are uttering. I really resent it. Your comments re Berkeley and tote bags are equally ignorant.

Subject: De gustibus, Joe....... From: PatC To: Joe Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 16:46:56 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: We'll never agree about politics or Berkeley. :P

Subject: Yeah, but I don't call you names From: Joe To: PatC Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 18:20:22 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Anti-American? That sucks and I deserve better from you.

Subject: Re: Yeah, but I don't call you names From: PatC To: Joe Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 18:58:59 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I honestly didn't have you in mind when I used the word ''anti-American,'' Joe. Believe me. Sure, I meant Chomsky's campus audiences often are and I know you're a damn pinko pansy but you're as American as apple pie in my eyes. :C)

Subject: Unsubstantiated Statement From: JHB To: NIgel Date Posted: Thurs, Feb 28, 2002 at 04:06:09 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Nigel, You said:- We know from history that religious belief is hardly a deterrent from killing others. We don't know this at all. What we know is that many people who claim religious beliefs still kill people on occasion. What I am speculating is that the early humans, without some sort of religious beliefs incorporating some sort of ethical code, would have been more likely to kill, when threatened by other humans, in the same way they would have no compunction in killing animals that threatened them. I haven't researched this, so I could be talking complete bollocks, but to argue that because religious people kill other people means that the religious code of ethics isn't a deterrent, is, I'm sure you'll agree, false. John.

Subject: Re: Unsubstantiated Statement From: PatC To: JHB Date Posted: Thurs, Feb 28, 2002 at 04:59:20 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: If you read any anthropology especially that of the Melanesians, Amazonians and Africans (which may be similar cultures to those from which we have all evolved in the not so distant past - probably as little as 20,000 years ago) you will find that most human ethics are based on practical considerations. Murder, incest, theft or lying are not tolerated by anyone no matter how primitive because they are irresponsible and anti-social. But certain mystical mumbo-jumbos will allow, for instance, certain Melanesian tribes to eat their dead grandmothers while for others the only cannibalism allowed is the eating of a defeated enemy warrior. Basic practical ethical rules have been around for as long as groups of humans have had to co-operate. Many of the common law ideas which we still subscribe to are contained in the Code of Hammurabi which is not much more than a set of rules and regulations regarding shared irrigation projects and trade but is older than Methuselah. The need for co-operation in irrigation created more ethics than religion. Religion seems to have always been more about mystical mumbo-jumbo than ethics until Jainism and it's offshoot Buddhism and later Judaism, Christianity and Islam which are very concerned with morality but of a type which is often more concerned with life after death than life on earth. Where I do disagree with Nigel is his idea that Lenin was not evil but a starry-eyed idealist. Didn't Lenin first coin the saying: 'The end justifies the means.' And did he also not disdain liberal socialists whom he termed ''useful idiots.'' In fact I think he may probably have thought that Nigel was a useful idiot. But that argument is not for this forum.

Subject: Is there a historian in the house.. From: Nigel To: PatC Date Posted: Thurs, Feb 28, 2002 at 08:07:52 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Some good anthrolopological points, Pat. re. Lenin: my knowledge of him as a person is somewhat limited, and I may be painting him in an innapropriately angelic light (wretched commie subversive that I am). When you consider the nature of absolute power to corrupt absolutely, I would be surprised if he was such a nice guy, even if he started out that way. (Actually, I think it was Machievelli who coined the 'end justifies the means' thing.) But I don't think it really detracts from my point about Stalin etc. If Stalin had got religion he would probably have become a Milosevich or an Ayatollah. Actually, if religions nowadays pay at least lip service to international respect and harmony amongst rival faiths, it was not ever thus. I seem to remember the Old Testament as being something of a tribal blood-fest. And even with twentieth century wars, I am not sure there was ever an army chaplain who advised his charges to 'love thine enemies' (as opposed to 'kill them'). I'm not suggesting there isn't such thing as a good war, or at least a 'just war' (I think there is), but that religious leaders of all faiths and nations will usually embrace their own side's cause, uncritically - which, in a way, makes it an incredibly dangerous propaganda weapon. 'With God on our side' etc. Hmm, I am rambling a bit now, so I'll shut up. Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition... Nige the not even useful idiot.

Subject: 'Religious code of ethics' From: Nigel To: JHB Date Posted: Thurs, Feb 28, 2002 at 04:47:29 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I take your point, John (ie. religious teachings might, in some cases, act as a moral deterrent) but the crucial qualifier you have added about religions 'incorporating some sort of ethical code' moves the goalposts somewhat. I would argue that codes of ethics would be there anyway. Is it really fear of damnation which stops people killing each other? Or - more likely - IMO, fear of the act itself plus fear of the consequences - and, thanks to our tendency towards social cooperation, prosocial behaviour feels nicer than conflict? Chimpanzees will, on occasion, murder one another, but, on the whole, do not. No religion necessary there. I suppose one piece of retrospective research you could carry out would be to try and correlate murder rates with the degree of religious observance in every country with available data. Your argument would predict a negative correlation; mine would predict either no correlation or even a positive one. (The USA has the world's highest murder rate in spite of still being a very religious country). Tricky, though, because of all the extraneous factors you would need to control for. Alternatively, you could examine the strength of religious belief (or lack of) amongst convicted criminals. I suspect it would not so dissimilar to that found in society at large. (I notice, too, that Roman Catholicism has never been much of a deterrent for paedophile priests...)

Subject: Probably impossible to prove From: JHB To: Nigel Date Posted: Thurs, Feb 28, 2002 at 05:14:57 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Nigel, Sorry about the goalposts but I thought that was implicit in using the example 'thou shalt not kill'. Of course a religion that advocates slaughter of non-believers would not be a good deterrent. Also, I was speculating about early human societies, so research would be difficult. I just think it stands to reason that with no other factors present, a society that believes it's wrong to kill other humans would be less likely to do so than one that has no such belief, assuming the instinctive tendencies are the same. But as I said, I could be talking a load of bollocks. Maybe the society that has no such collective belief, but works out using their brains that it's better for the species to avoid killing as much as possible, would kill less than a society that restricts its intellectual development by holding irrational beliefs. I just don't know if such a society ever developed, or coud have developed. John

Subject: Hmm, goalposts moved even further..? From: Nigel To: JHB Date Posted: Thurs, Feb 28, 2002 at 05:58:54 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: John, now it looks like you are further qualifying your definition of the good that religion can do by narrowing it down to 'religions with codes of ethics that do not advocate slaughter', or something. As you could similarly endorse secular codes of ethics which do not advocate slaughter, then religion becomes redundant to the whole argument, unless you - or anyone - can show that religious belief is necessary for any society (even a primitive one) to develop such a code. I don't think it was, or is.

Subject: Just look how wide they are now! From: JHB To: Nigel Date Posted: Thurs, Feb 28, 2002 at 11:07:31 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: OK, Nigel, you've backed me in a corner now, so see if you can argue with this. I'm now confining my comments to all religions adopted by primitive human society that helped created social adhesion, and helped develop a good ethical code. I suspect I haven't got a leg to stand on were you to argue that this applies to a minority of religions:) John the didn't expect the Spanish Inquisition.

Subject: Talking of Spanish Inquisition.. From: Nigel To: JHB Date Posted: Thurs, Feb 28, 2002 at 11:13:30 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I understand it observed a strict code of ethical conduct involving the gentle roasting of heretics in the name of an infallible Pope... Excellent choice of metaphor, I reckon ;)

Subject: Thanks, I thought you'd like it:) [nt] From: JHB To: Nigel Date Posted: Thurs, Feb 28, 2002 at 13:00:33 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Altruistic Acts From: Joe To: Nigel Date Posted: Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 16:13:08 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I agree that there is no reason to assume that all the 'good' that religions do, couldn't be done without religious beliefs. But I have also seen, on a practical level, that religions can be a very effective way of bringing people together to carry out those altruistic acts in a fashion much more powerful than if people were trying to do them individually or among their relatively small group of friends. I think this is especially true if people don't live in a community with long traditions and interconnections, like if everyone is from someplace else. The example I am thinking of is the incredible response to the AIDs epidemic in San Francisco, (where most people are from someplace else) in which religious groups played a vital role in bringing groups of people together to act, regardless of what they believed about whatever the religion holds out to be true. They even orgainzed many otherwise "secular" programs in which people who aren't members of the religion could participate.

Subject: Re: Altruistic Acts From: Richard To: Joe Date Posted: Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 16:19:32 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: A few secular groups that do good come to mind: Oxfam http://www.oxfam.org/ Doctors Without Borders http://www.doctorswithoutborders.org/

Subject: What is 'good?' From: Joe To: PatC Date Posted: Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 15:10:26 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I think it's completely subjective. I would tend to think a religion is 'good' if it supports and provides a way to exercise my values, and perhaps to provide a community who largely hold the values. Hence, since I'm a secular humanist, the Unitarians come about as close as anything to what a 'good' religion would be, since they hold vaguely Christian beliefs (just barely) and humanism is really their beliefs. But someone else would give you an entirely different answer because they have different values. It get's circular, though. Since most people are 'raised' in a religion, they either accept the familiarity of it, get bored and fall away, or reject it completely once they are able to. So, the religion not only is an expression of values, it also can teach, or indoctrinate them into people as well. I think religions are almost entirely social phenomena, especially in the USA.

Subject: Re: Are there any good religions? From: Livia To: PatC Date Posted: Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 09:12:10 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: A fascinating post, Pat. However, what about the fact that statistically, people who believe in or have a faith in some kind of a God tend to have healthier immune systems/longer lives? I have read this as a piece of well backed up research. I think the implication is that we are all subject to existential fears. The instinct for survival is built into all of us, and we are all ultimately afraid of death, hence the success of religions. Most of us probably fear the notion of total annihilation. Therefore those of us who through whatever method manage to convince ourselves that there is something behind all of this, and that we may have a destiny larger than our comparitively short life on earth, probably manage to be happier than those who don't or can't. Hence the healthier immune system, longer life-span etc. And whether one believes in anything or not, there are still enormous questions to be asked about ourselves, the world, everything. In other words, having questioned/rejected the Maharaji view, we are now left with all the existential questions we or some of us had before recieving K. There are a number of ways to deal with this: attempting to lead an ethical life, continuing to do meditation, either the techniques or a different kind, enjoying our lives and the pursuit of our goals, relationships etc.....the choice is up to us, I suppose. Another thing worth examining is the psychological aspect: how many of us were drawn to M not for existential/'spiritual' reasons but for psychological ones? Ie the need for a good father figure? This could be the case with people who lacked a good/present father in our own childhoods. I think for people like this (and I could be one of them), it's extremely difficult to give up the concept of M as perfect. It's as if we have internalised him as an archetype, and it doesn't matter what we hear about him, wrongdoings, obvious feet of clay, etc., the internalisation is so needed and powerful that it's very hard to shift. I posted an article about Sai Baba below with lots of quotes from Baba devotees; their inability to accept that he could be any less than perfect against all the evidence has obvious parallels with some premies. My feeling is that in those cases psychotherapy is probably the answer, as the blindness towards the fallibility of both these teachers probably causes those people to be poor judges of character in other area of their lives too, and is best sorted out. So, premie -ji below, know thyself! with love, Livia

Subject: Good points, Livia... From: Cynthia To: Livia Date Posted: Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 17:02:49 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Livia, You addressed some important points, thank you. Another thing worth examining is the psychological aspect: how many of us were drawn to M not for existential/'spiritual' reasons but for psychological ones? Ie the need for a good father figure? This could be the case with people who lacked a good/present father in our own childhoods. I think for people like this (and I could be one of them), it's extremely difficult to give up the concept of M as perfect. It's as if we have internalised him as an archetype, and it doesn't matter what we hear about him, wrongdoings, obvious feet of clay, etc., the internalisation is so needed and powerful that it's very hard to shift. This is a subject you have brought up before and I agree with your assessment that there were underlying psychologic reasons for some, many all, (I don't know) for needing a father figure in m. I know it's true for me, in retrosect. The confusion I have right now about this is what came first, the cult programming or the psychological need? I'm not sure what happened to me when I entered that first satsang house. Did something I may not have even been conscious of inside my own make-up (a need for unconditional love, as advertised?) triggere in to make me want to devote myself to m, with all the trappings, no questions asked? It's difficult sometimes for me to discern between the cult programming and my own needs at the time. The 'ole chicken and egg thing. You are correct though when you say perhaps some of us were predisposed to be a bad judge of character; I know I was. Yet, at the time of my induction into the cult I was oblivious to my ability to judge character, make a real life choice aside from the Maharajism. I think for me it was a huge escape, with, of course, the backdrop of my own personal psychological predispositions. And interesting POV, Livia... Thanks. You've got me thinking again...:) Be well, Cynthia

Subject: Re: Good points, Livia and Cynthia From: Mercedes To: Cynthia Date Posted: Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 18:30:09 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Livia and Cynthia, I am thinking that in my case I was predisposed due to the circumstances around my life and took on this guy as an archetypal father figure, I am still sorting out the mess in my life, for starters my growth was stunted for about 20 years. I am still really angry at this guy, he never gave us guidance as to how to take care of ourselves it was all service or participation as they call it now, negating our own needs and wants. Yes this is a personality cult that stunts growth in people and blinds people to the reality of their own lives and their alledged teacher. I don't believe in religion personally I wish there were no religions any more, that is not possible I know so I make it possible for me, I just trust my inner guidance system and also Goddess or Spirit to give it a name. Thank you for your insightful posts, Mercedes

Subject: Nice going Livia From: Richard To: Livia Date Posted: Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 15:29:39 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Nice take on the subject. I especially liked what you say about being drawn to M&K for psychological reasons and one reason it can be difficult to jettison is because we bound M&K psychologically with the father archetype.

Subject: Rastafarianism From: Pullaver To: PatC Date Posted: Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 09:01:59 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Let's see now, we believe in smokin' great piles of ganja and that Haile Selassi, a former Emporer of Ethiopia is 'santa massa ganna' king of kings and Bob Marley is our patron saint of riddim, but smoke the spliff first mon, and ask questions later (if you can remember them).

Subject: 'Religions are like farts ...' From: cq To: PatC Date Posted: Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 07:19:06 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'Religions are like farts. Yours is good, but everyone else's stinks'. [Picket Fences] ... and a few more erudite quotes to ponder on: All religion, my friend, is simply evolved out of fraud, fear, greed, imagination, and poetry. [Edgar Allan Poe] I want nothing to do with religion concerned with keeping the masses satisfied to live in hunger, filth and ignorance. I want nothing to do with any order, religious or otherwise, which does not teach people that they are capable of becoming happier and more civilized, on this earth, capable of becoming true man, master of his fate and captain of his soul. To attain this, I would put priests to work, also, and turn the temples into schools. [Jawaharlal Nehru] It is fear that first brought gods into the world. [Petronius Arbiter, Satyricon] Belief means not wanting to know what is true. [Nietzche, The Anti-Christ, 1889] Recently I was reading somewhere or other [about] an Italian curio-dealer who attempted to sell a 17th century crucifix to J.P. Morgan. [I]nside it was concealed a stiletto. What a perfect symbol of the Christian religion. [George Orwell] God is a gross answer, an indelicacy against us thinkers-- at bottom merely a gross prohibition for us: you shall not think! [Nietzsche, Ecce Homo] The Christian faith from the beginning, is sacrifice: the sacrifice of all freedom, all price, all self-confidence of spirit; it is at the same time subjection, self-derision, and self-mutilation... [Nietzsche] The tolerance of liberty can be maintained until complete federal and state control by Catholics has been accomplished. [Bishop O'Connor, Pittsburgh]

Subject: Re: Are there any good religions? From: the maharaji To: PatC Date Posted: Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 03:33:17 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: cum back, patsy cum back to ME !!!

Subject: thanks, doll, but no thanks. From: PatC To: the maharaji Date Posted: Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 03:56:56 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: cum back, patsy cum back to ME !!! --- It's more fun spinning against you than for you. Hey, baby, you were the one who said Maharajism wasn't a religion. Well, it turned out it is. Oops! Sorry, buddy.

Subject: Oh Yessss!:p From: Father Tiswonurtabit To: PatC Date Posted: Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 00:22:47 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I am a big fan of 'The Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence'. They do good works on the streets of Sydney in early March!

Subject: Reply below Pat From: hamzen To: PatC Date Posted: Tues, Feb 26, 2002 at 20:32:43 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: That's what happens when you use the back & forward buttons at 2 in the morning.

Subject: You forgot the Cargo Cult......... From: PatD To: PatC Date Posted: Tues, Feb 26, 2002 at 19:14:43 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ...that was a good one. Silver bird in sky drop grub. Yum Yum. Nice one Pat.

Subject: Why not??? From: Sulla To: PatC Date Posted: Tues, Feb 26, 2002 at 17:31:57 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: As you don't have to belong to any religion to be a whole and honorable person, I'm sure that there are plenty of good people who belong to some religions, who won't be asked, and if asked, won't be able to give up their moral values or integrity in exchange of salvation, but instead will denounce the oppressor. One thing is a cult and other a religion. We have come a long way baby. Or maybe they? Because WE really were in a cult.

Subject: Why not???? From: Sulla To: PatC Date Posted: Tues, Feb 26, 2002 at 17:07:18 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: As you don't have to belong to any religion to be a whole and honorable person, I'm sure that there are plenty of good people who belonged to some religions, who won't be asked, and if asked, won't be able to give up their moral values or integrity in exchange of salvation, but instead will denounce the oppresor.One thing is a cult and other a religion. We have come a long way baby. Or maybe they? Because WE really were in a cult.

Subject: Re: Are there any good religions? From: Mike Finch To: PatC Date Posted: Tues, Feb 26, 2002 at 17:02:22 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Pat Great post. The best summary of religions I have seen for a long time, but you don't define what you mean by 'good'. What is a 'good' religion ?? Is a 'good' religion one that keeps people peaceful and non-violent - Marx's opiate of the masses (or was that Lenin ?). Then probably Jainism and Theravada Buddhist win. (Or do people that are inherently peaceful and non-violent pick those religions ?) Is a 'good' religion one that fires people up to get them moving and enthused with the work ethic, so that society can produce (and consume) loads of stuff - then probably Judeo-Christianity comes near the top. Of course, for premies, all religions are bad, since you have to accept some belief system, and as we all know, Knowledge is pure experience and involves no beliefs (ha !). For ex-premies all religions are bad, since they are either 'pre-scientific' (the most meaningless of Forum 7 mots du jour, in my opinion), or they involve a belief-system and now we have all seen through M we will never believe anything even remotely like that again, will we ? My personal take is that there is no good religion, almost by definition - religions range from the worst and most cruel mass-delusions possible, to merely neutral. The best I can say of any religion (Theravada Buddhism) is that it seems to have done no real harm, and provides some interesting notions that are launching pads for self-discovery. -- Mike

Subject: They're all bollox I reckon From: hamzen To: Mike Finch Date Posted: Tues, Feb 26, 2002 at 20:29:54 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Some people might get something from them, the belief gives you a bit of breathing space on the existential dread and terror front maybe, and occasionally they can be a stabilising social force, but I still reckon they're all bollox.

Subject: existential dread and terror front From: Francesca To: hamzen Date Posted: Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 00:47:13 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Great one, hamzen! --f

Subject: There you go again, Mike From: Jim To: Mike Finch Date Posted: Tues, Feb 26, 2002 at 20:19:00 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: For ex-premies all religions are bad, since they are either 'pre-scientific' (the most meaningless of Forum 7 mots du jour, in my opinion), I love the term 'prescientific' but you find it meaningless. Now I wonder why that is. Here's Mirriam Webster: Main Entry: pre·sci·en·tif·ic Pronunciation: 'prE-'sI-&n-'ti-fik Function: adjective Date: 1858 : of, relating to, or having the characteristics of a period before the rise of modern science or a state prior to the application of the scientific method Frankly, I think that's a very rich meaning. or they involve a belief-system and now we have all seen through M we will never believe anything even remotely like that again, will we ? Not sure why you're being facetious there. Are you? My personal take is that there is no good religion, almost by definition - religions range from the worst and most cruel mass-delusions possible, to merely neutral. The best I can say of any religion (Theravada Buddhism) is that it seems to have done no real harm, and provides some interesting notions that are launching pads for self-discovery. How about self-delusion? Is that also in the mix? And, if so, how can you tell the difference?

Subject: Question for Jim or Mike From: PatrickW To: Jim Date Posted: Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 18:39:44 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Webster defines 'pre-scientific' as.....'of, relating to, or having the characteristics of a period before the rise of modern science or a state prior to the application of the scientific method ' Roughly when do you guys suppose (or monsieur Webster thinks) that the 'rise of modern science' took place? It just got me thinking that people have arguably been applying scientific method for an awful long time - that is without calling it 'Science' or even having heard of that word. On another note, I recently saw a very interesting science TV programme which was about how scientists now feel there is extremely compelling evidence that there are innumerable parallel universes. Mike if you are in the UK and even in the south, maybe give me a call and we could get together. It'd be good to see you and discuss your 'transatlantic' paper!

Subject: OK - here I go again From: Mike Finch To: Jim Date Posted: Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 11:42:36 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I love the term 'prescientific' but you find it meaningless... It is certainly not 'meaningless', and the definition you quote from the dictionary is a fairly precise meaning. If 'prescientific' is used as a neutral description of the period before modern science, I have no problem. What I am getting at is that it is often used as shorthand, or an umbrella word, for a whole attitude and collection of thoughts that I think need questioning. My basic problem is the that the scientific method is the only method of obtaining the truth. This is a big topic, and I am not going to cover it here. In fact, I am flying to England tomorrow, and I may well spend some of the flight trying to write a clear exposition of what I mean. A few bullet points of what I think I will say: -- What is 'truth' ? Difficult if not impossible to answer; therefore take the pragmatic approach, and ask instead the question: What body of knowledge is useful ? -- There is no question that what has emerged out of the scientific method and modern science is useful to humanity. -- Is there any area that modern science has not been particularly useful in ? -- To my mind, yes there is. In a sense, it is any area where consciousness is a large factor. -- What is consciousness ? I think you have to leave it as a primitive term (in the logical sense) as one that you cannot define, but everyone has some common understanding of what you mean. -- Areas in which there is no, or little, consciousness include objects in the physical world - and the sciences which attempt to investigate these, such as physics and chemistry are spectacularly successful. -- Areas in which there is a spectrum of consciousness, ranging from zero consciousness to full consciousness, include the human body, and sciences which deal with this have mixed success. When modern medicine attempts to fix things in the human body that are purely physical, such as broken bones or physical injury, then again medicine is spectacularly successful. When it attempts to fix diseases that arise from a clearly indentifiable foreign agent invading the body, then again we have success. -- But when modern medicine attempts to fix diseases that are to some extent caused by the individual's state of mind, consciousness, then less success - examples are the modern stress diseases such as cancer and heart attack, and the chronic diseases in general. The placebo effect is well-documented, and a powerful effect, which is due entirely to an individual's consciousness, and about which modern medicine has zero to say, other than to describe it. -- Other sciences that deal with consciousness-related stuff are psychology and sociology. When science tries to answer questions that remove consciousness, such as the behavorial psychologies where individuals are treated as consciousless robots, then again some success. But when psychology tries to treat problems that arise from consciousness itself, then no success - or at best cover up the symptoms with drugs, particularly for the depressive and schizoid. -- So if modern science, the child of the scientifc method, has less and less success being useful the more it approaches consciousness, is there another approach that might fill the gap ? I think yes, the fact that consciousness can be self-reflective, that an individual's consciousness can be conscious of itself. In that self-relectivity I believe that there exists another mode of knowing, or let's say discovering things which are useful, that does not contradict the scientific method, but complements it. -- Not only do I believe this is so, but I can also explain why this is so. The answer is logic, or the tool by which the scientific method reasons from observation to theory to useful outcome. Logic, meaning Aristotelian logic, which is the common-sense everyday logic people use, is only useful when dealing with distinct items. It is founded on seemingly 'intuitive' laws, such as the Law of Identity - A is A - the Law of Non-Contradiction - given proposition A and its negation, not-A, at most only one is true - and the Law of the Excluded Middle - given proposition A and its negation, not-A, at least one is true. -- As I say, when dealing with distinct objects that obey the above laws - physical objects, broken bones, non-mutable viruses - the scientific method can use logic to arrive at useful stuff. But with consciousness, these 'obvious' laws do not hold - in fact, if pushed to define 'consciousness', I would start along the line that it is a continuuum that does not obey the Law of the Excluded Middle, and as a result in which self-reflectivity can arise. -- It is interesting to note that some people hold that the 'particles' of quantum mechanics do not obey these laws either, which gives rise to lots of popular books such as the Tao of Physics etc. I have my own take on all that, but this is for another post. Anyway, what I am getting at in all this is that modern science is not the only body of knowledge that deserves a place at the table, as you put it is some recent post. Actually, I am not saying that anything pre-scientific deserves a place at the table either, only that if modern science is the only sitter at the table, then there is a large area of intense interest to human beings, which I am calling consciousness, that can never be investigated in a way that will yield useful results. That is why I bridle when the word 'prescientific' is used hereabouts with a sneer, as if nothing else is valid. In fact something else must be valid, otherwise consciousness remains a closed book and humanity is in deep shit. But what it is, exactly, that does take a seat at the table along with modern science ? That is the question, as they say. As for your other points: ..or they involve a belief-system and now we have all seen through M we will never believe anything even remotely like that again, will we ? Not sure why you're being facetious there. Are you? Not exactly facetious, but tongue-in-cheek. A light-hearted comment, indicating that while I should have learnt from my years with M not to get taken in again, there are no guarantees. My personal take is that there is no good religion, almost by definition - religions range from the worst and most cruel mass-delusions possible, to merely neutral. The best I can say of any religion (Theravada Buddhism) is that it seems to have done no real harm, and provides some interesting notions that are launching pads for self-discovery. How about self-delusion? Is that also in the mix? And, if so, how can you tell the difference? I am not sure what you are meaning here. Self-delusion is certainly in the mix of all religions, as far as I can see, and it is of course hard to tell the difference. But I cannot see exactly why your questions relate to what you quoted from my previous post. -- Mike

Subject: At the risk of pissing off OTS .... From: Jim To: Mike Finch Date Posted: Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 20:50:18 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: -- What is 'truth' ? Difficult if not impossible to answer; therefore take the pragmatic approach, and ask instead the question: What body of knowledge is useful ? Why do people have such a hard time with this word? God, you learned it when you were a baby and it's meaning hasn't changed: truth is that which actually is. End of story. -- There is no question that what has emerged out of the scientific method and modern science is useful to humanity. Extreme understatement. -- Is there any area that modern science has not been particularly useful in ? Depends what you mean by 'area'. If you're talking about learning how we can all live forever or sprout wings, no modern science hasn't cracked those mysteries. Mind you, maybe they're just uncrackable. It's a very loaded question, Mike, as it assumes that the 'areas' in question are reasonable. -- To my mind, yes there is. In a sense, it is any area where consciousness is a large factor. God, that's completely wrong. Science is the only process by which we've learned anything at all about consciousness. There are many, many miles to go discovering the secrets of consciousness but only science will get us there. -- What is consciousness ? I think you have to leave it as a primitive term (in the logical sense) as one that you cannot define, but everyone has some common understanding of what you mean. Mirriam-Webster again: Main Entry: con·scious·ness Pronunciation: -n&s Function: noun Date: 1632 1 a : the quality or state of being aware especially of something within oneself b : the state or fact of being conscious of an external object, state, or fact c : AWARENESS; especially : concern for some social or political cause 2 : the state of being characterized by sensation, emotion, volition, and thought : MIND 3 : the totality of conscious states of an individual 4 : the normal state of conscious life 5 : the upper level of mental life of which the person is aware as contrasted with unconscious processes What's so hard about that? Do we understand all the mechanisms or parameters of consciousness? No, hardly. But we know what the word means, for one thing, and we're learning more about it all the time, for another. -- Areas in which there is no, or little, consciousness include objects in the physical world - and the sciences which attempt to investigate these, such as physics and chemistry are spectacularly successful. Okayyyyyy....... (?) -- Areas in which there is a spectrum of consciousness, ranging from zero consciousness to full consciousness, include the human body, and sciences which deal with this have mixed success. When modern medicine attempts to fix things in the human body that are purely physical, such as broken bones or physical injury, then again medicine is spectacularly successful. When it attempts to fix diseases that arise from a clearly indentifiable foreign agent invading the body, then again we have success. Okayyyyyyyyyyyyy (?) [Part 2] -- But when modern medicine attempts to fix diseases that are to some extent caused by the individual's state of mind, consciousness, then less success - examples are the modern stress diseases such as cancer and heart attack, and the chronic diseases in general. The placebo effect is well-documented, and a powerful effect, which is due entirely to an individual's consciousness, and about which modern medicine has zero to say, other than to describe it. Give me a break, Mike. We have learned so, so much about all these things over the last hundred years, say, it's not funny. Just be patient, will you? What's that? You have a mortal body with a loud and scary biological clock and you can't afford to wait patiently? Oh well, join the club. Still, we're progressing and yes, this is the only way. -- Other sciences that deal with consciousness-related stuff are psychology and sociology. When science tries to answer questions that remove consciousness, such as the behavorial psychologies where individuals are treated as consciousless robots, then again some success. But when psychology tries to treat problems that arise from consciousness itself, then no success - or at best cover up the symptoms with drugs, particularly for the depressive and schizoid. The long term, Mike. Think: LONG TERM. We have learned an incredible amount about all these things in the recent past and our knowledge just keeps getting better and better. Why? Science. Nothing else deserves credit. -- So if modern science, the child of the scientifc method, has less and less success being useful the more it approaches consciousness, is there another approach that might fill the gap ? The gap that worries me most is that one you keep putting before your question marks. Now what's THAT all about? :) Mike, it's entirely wrong to say that science is becoming 'less and less' successful understanding consciousness. The opposite is true. Mind you, there are, as I understand it, all sorts of theories of consciousnes competing in the scientific arena right now. Give them time. If past performances is any predictor of future success, science will continue to deliver and nothing will stop it. As for some other approach, forget it. That's just dreaming. I think yes, the fact that consciousness can be self-reflective, that an individual's consciousness can be conscious of itself. In that self-relectivity I believe that there exists another mode of knowing, or let's say discovering things which are useful, that does not contradict the scientific method, but complements it. Oh yeah? Give me an example. I don't think you'll be able to point to a single thing we've actually learned about consciousness through 'self-reflectivity' (introspection?) that adds to our real knowledge about the stuff. -- Not only do I believe this is so, but I can also explain why this is so. The answer is logic, or the tool by which the scientific method reasons from observation to theory to useful outcome. Logic, meaning Aristotelian logic, which is the common-sense everyday logic people use, is only useful when dealing with distinct items. It is founded on seemingly 'intuitive' laws, such as the Law of Identity - A is A - the Law of Non-Contradiction - given proposition A and its negation, not-A, at most only one is true - and the Law of the Excluded Middle - given proposition A and its negation, not-A, at least one is true. I'm listening ..... -- As I say, when dealing with distinct objects that obey the above laws - physical objects, broken bones, non-mutable viruses - the scientific method can use logic to arrive at useful stuff. But with consciousness, these 'obvious' laws do not hold - in fact, if pushed to define 'consciousness', I would start along the line that it is a continuuum that does not obey the Law of the Excluded Middle, and as a result in which self-reflectivity can arise. What kind of .... sorry, Mike, I'm trying to understand you but, well, what kind of gobbledygook is THAT? -- It is interesting to note that some people hold that the 'particles' of quantum mechanics do not obey these laws either, which gives rise to lots of popular books such as the Tao of Physics etc. I have my own take on all that, but this is for another post. Oh my god, not The Tao of Physics! Here's one Amazon review that speaks my mind on the subject: Capra's book was the pioneering volume in a long line of metaphysical babble, attempting to find solid links between the apparant otherworldliness of quantum physics and the similarly odd world of metaphysics. It's a poorly motivated parallel, and serves only to trivialize physics, not to elucidate either area. The book is a favorite of those who have trouble seeing that non-conformance with the macroscopic world doesn't automatically push the objective study of quantum physics into the subjective world of metaphysics Anyway, what I am getting at in all this is that modern science is not the only body of knowledge that deserves a place at the table, as you put it is some recent post. Actually, I am not saying that anything pre-scientific deserves a place at the table either, only that if modern science is the only sitter at the table, then there is a large area of intense interest to human beings, which I am calling consciousness, that can never be investigated in a way that will yield useful results. Tell that to all the scientists who are indeed investigating consciousness in ways that DO yield useful results. There's a lot going on in that respect, Mike. It's a vital field of research and inquiry and I, for one (again, simply going by past performance) expect serious breakthroughs, at least within the next, oh, thousand years, let's say. :) That is why I bridle when the word 'prescientific' is used hereabouts with a sneer, as if nothing else is valid. In fact something else must be valid, otherwise consciousness remains a closed book and humanity is in deep shit. But what it is, exactly, that does take a seat at the table along with modern science ? That is the question, as they say. Your premise is wrong. As for your other points: ..or they involve a belief-system and now we have all seen through M we will never believe anything even remotely like that again, will we ? [Jim] Not sure why you're being facetious there. Are you? Not exactly facetious, but tongue-in-cheek. A light-hearted comment, indicating that while I should have learnt from my years with M not to get taken in again, there are no guarantees. I'm with you there. My personal take is that there is no good religion, almost by definition - religions range from the worst and most cruel mass-delusions possible, to merely neutral. The best I can say of any religion (Theravada Buddhism) is that it seems to have done no real harm, and provides some interesting notions that are launching pads for self-discovery. [Jim]How about self-delusion? Is that also in the mix? And, if so, how can you tell the difference? I am not sure what you are meaning here. Self-delusion is certainly in the mix of all religions, as far as I can see, and it is of course hard to tell the difference. But I cannot see exactly why your questions relate to what you quoted from my previous post. Just that you were saying religion triggers self-discovery and I'm saying that, no, if anything I'd say it triggers self-deception.

Subject: For OTS's insomnia From: Mike Finch To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, Feb 28, 2002 at 18:52:05 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: God, you learned it when you were a baby and it's meaning hasn't changed: truth is that which actually is. End of story. This is just the definition of 'truth': that which actually is. What I am saying is that 'what actually is' is a thorny issue in any serious philosophical discussion; it led to sterile philosophy for much of the 19th century until the American Pragmatists suggested that you look at what is useful, as opposed to what is 'true'. Read any potted version of philosophy in the late 18th and 19th centuries to see how the concept of Truth hung everyone up. [Mike]-- Is there any area that modern science has not been particularly useful in ? Depends what you mean by 'area'. If you're talking about learning how we can all live forever or sprout wings, no modern science hasn't cracked those mysteries. Mind you, maybe they're just uncrackable. It's a very loaded question, Mike, as it assumes that the 'areas' in question are reasonable. You are right, I am assuming that the areas in question are reasonable. I am not talking about living forever or sprouting wings. [Mike]-- To my mind, yes there is. In a sense, it is any area where consciousness is a large factor. God, that's completely wrong. Science is the only process by which we've learned anything at all about consciousness. There are many, many miles to go discovering the secrets of consciousness but only science will get us there. Well, this is the heart of our disagreement. Science is the only process by which we've learned anything at all about consciousness...only science will get us there is the proposition that I am disputing. I am not talking about explaining consciousness in terms of neurons firing, or anything, but in areas of human interest where human consciousness is a large factor - and I gave several examples in my post. By the way, you call on 'God' alot for an atheist ! Only kidding - I am an atheist as well - perhaps we agree on something. I mean it in the sense that there is no 'higher power' out there - there is only unexplored consciousness in the human mind - but I digress. [Mike]-- But when modern medicine attempts to fix diseases that are to some extent caused by the individual's state of mind, consciousness, then less success - examples are the modern stress diseases such as cancer and heart attack, and the chronic diseases in general. The placebo effect is well-documented, and a powerful effect, which is due entirely to an individual's consciousness, and about which modern medicine has zero to say, other than to describe it. Give me a break, Mike. We have learned so, so much about all these things over the last hundred years, say, it's not funny. Just be patient, will you? What's that? You have a mortal body with a loud and scary biological clock and you can't afford to wait patiently? Oh well, join the club. Still, we're progressing and yes, this is the only way.....The long term, Mike. Think: LONG TERM. We have learned an incredible amount about all these things in the recent past and our knowledge just keeps getting better and better. Why? Science. Nothing else deserves credit. What I am saying is this: The areas in which modern science have made least progress is in the areas where consciousness is a large factor. If I understand you right, you are saying this is just a matter of time, and that science will at some point catch up, and in any case it is the only thing which will. I am saying that it is no accident that this is the case, it is a fundamental property of the scientific method and its primary tool - logic - that it will fail to grasp the intricacies of consciousness, in principle. So let's move on to 'logic' - take my statement that you said was gobbledygook. [Mike] The answer is logic, or the tool by which the scientific method reasons from observation to theory to useful outcome. Logic, meaning Aristotelian logic, which is the common-sense everyday logic people use, is only useful when dealing with distinct items. It is founded on seemingly 'intuitive' laws, such as the Law of Identity - A is A - the Law of Non-Contradiction - given proposition A and its negation, not-A, at most only one is true - and the Law of the Excluded Middle - given proposition A and its negation, not-A, at least one is true. [Still Mike] As I say, when dealing with distinct objects that obey the above laws - physical objects, broken bones, non-mutable viruses - the scientific method can use logic to arrive at useful stuff. But with consciousness, these 'obvious' laws do not hold - in fact, if pushed to define 'consciousness', I would start along the line that it is a continuuum that does not obey the Law of the Excluded Middle, and as a result in which self-reflectivity can arise. OK, the last bit might be gobbledygook (about defining consciousness as blah blah), BUT the rest of it is not. I am saying that logic can only deal with distinct things - the definition of object A being distinct from object B is the same as the 3 laws of logic I quoted above. Logic as a tool for understanding things can only do so if the 'things' are distinct one from the other. In the subtleties of consciousness, distinction need not exist, like it has to in the world of physical objects, and so logic (in the Aristotelian sense) may not be the best tool for investigating consciousness. Oh my god, not The Tao of Physics! I agree with you - I was referring to it in a derogatory sense. I knew Fritjof Capra in the early 70's when he was writing his book. We had several discussions about this kind of stuff, but he severed the relationship when I started spouting Maharajism at him - sensible fellow ! He told me he did not want to get involved with anyone who was in a cult (this was in around 72 I think). ...you were saying religion triggers self-discovery and I'm saying that, no, if anything I'd say it triggers self-deception. I don't think I ever said religion triggers self-discovery, and I am sorry if I gave you that impression. For me, religion is pretty much the biggest disaster that hit the human race. Wherever you see a pile of bodies, the odds are that a religious belief system will be behind it. What I actually said was: [Mike] ...there is no good religion, almost by definition - religions range from the worst and most cruel mass-delusions possible, to merely neutral. The best I can say of any religion (Theravada Buddhism) is that it seems to have done no real harm, and provides some interesting notions that are launching pads for self-discovery. I am sorry you don't like the gap between the end of my sentences and the question or exclamation mark ! -- Mike

Subject: I don't know about that From: Jim To: Mike Finch Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 21:32:49 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Mike, You say that the areas in which science has made the least progress are those concerning consciousness but, first, I don't know if that's true and, second, even if it is, so what? I think it goes without saying that this is an inherently difficult field of study so progress must be measured in that context. But even if it's incredibly slow going, hell, even if it ain't going anywhere right now, I still don't see how anything other than science could ever teach us anything meaningful about consciousness. In saying that, I specifically reject the notion of some kind of 'enlightenment' that explains all from the inside out. No 'grand mal' enlightenment, no 'petit mal' either. Whatever those experiences are, they're not ways that we, as a species, really learn about the nature of consciousness as much as they're ways we can just experience some of its properties. Those experiences are so tainted with our imaginations, though, they're impossible to study from the inside out. If we ever did learn how to do it, we'd be crossing into the scientific arena.

Subject: Re: OK - here I go again From: OTS To: Mike Finch Date Posted: Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 14:54:52 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ Can't wait for the long version.

Subject: This is sad OTS From: Nottm Bunny To: OTS Date Posted: Thurs, Feb 28, 2002 at 00:22:41 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: OTS, After the years that many of us have spent in a climate that stifled the exercise of the mind, I find it sad that you should feel compelled to display your intolerance or incapacity for intellectual debate here. There are some fine minds at work on this forum and I for one have appreciated the level of some of the recent debates. I have heard it said that Dr Finch has a ‘brain the size of a planet’. What a waste to the world then, the cult years were when concepts were ridiculed and unquestioning banality was feted. The insidious (and potentially enduring) nature of all of that conditioning should not be underestimated. Think about it. Bunny

Subject: Well actually Bunny... From: Dermot To: Nottm Bunny Date Posted: Thurs, Feb 28, 2002 at 06:36:15 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: OTS is only exercising his right to free speech on the forum:) I think it's cool that some people find the whole debate Mike usually instigates, bone dead boring. It's good to know it's vital for some yet means zilch to others!! You, on the other hand, appreciate that sort of debate so it's good to hear your voice too.vive la difference! As for me, I like to chip in when I think I've got something to say.....and I like to read to understand others POV...but sometimes I like spoofing around. No real harm done either way. Cheers Dermot

Subject: Re: Well actually Bunny and Jim... From: OTS To: Dermot Date Posted: Thurs, Feb 28, 2002 at 10:08:53 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I could not agree more with my tea drinking buddy, Dermot. Bunny, I hope he's answered your seeming upset with me. And I hope you didn't take it as just another DERMabraison. Or another OTS borish attack. Ouch! Them stings. I've come to a new understanding of religions from attempting to read Mike's recent explanations [but I couldn't make out the words from laughing so hard]. Here' my take on religions: God realization, OR WHATEVER, is a personal thing. It's the communication -- woman to woman; man to man -- where the screw up seems to occur. Anyway. I tell ya, I have over the past nine months really enjoyed Mike Finch's take on K & M . . but I could leave a good bit of the rest. But that's okay, we take and leave and read what we want here. MIKE: NO OFFENSE. AND THANKS FOR ALLOWING ME TO KID. However, I agree with Dermot, different strokes for different folks. My biting humor resonates pain with some, laughter with others. Whaddya gonna do? [Note to my brother, Jim, the lawyer above the border: Thanks for caring about upsetting me with your quad-font responses. But you step on egg shells without cause. No worries. If ya ask me, there're just aren't enough inkjet cartridges in all of Canada to publish just your first few thoughts you have each morning comin out of that outhouse of yours, runnin' back into that Kazinsky-model shack you call home, but it's your right to share each and every one of those thoughts and more as well as all of their myriad derivites day after day if you so choose, JimBob. And, of course, it's Bunny's and my rights to either read or not all or a portion. Jim, it's your world. I'm just checkin-in once in a while. But, it's the mix that counts.]

Subject: You can give it, Can you take it? From: Jim To: OTS Date Posted: Thurs, Feb 28, 2002 at 12:04:51 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'Biting humour' is fine me with, OTS. Just want to remind you that's a two-way street.

Subject: Hey OTS From: Dermot To: OTS Date Posted: Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 15:18:01 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You need one of those Buddhist sticks slapped across your back to help you awaken from your slumber ())

Subject: Re: Buddah Stick???? From: OTS To: Dermot Date Posted: Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 15:41:11 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks, mate. But what's a 'Buddah stick'? Is that like a 'Thai Stick'? Thanks.

Subject: No , you get high from a Thai stick From: Dermot To: OTS Date Posted: Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 16:52:29 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: you just get annoyed from a Buddha stick. Well, actually Buddha stick is just my crude off the cuff description ...they've probably got an exotic, esoteric name. You know, when a 'master' strolls round with a cane to check on his pupils alertness....maybe it's just a Zen phenomenon.....don't want to upset any other 'school' with my ignorance :)

Subject: Wake Up!!! From: OTS To: Dermot Date Posted: Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 17:32:01 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You mean a plant sprayer like they used to use on us during the 'all night meditations.'

Subject: Re: Wake Up!!! From: Richard To: OTS Date Posted: Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 17:37:08 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You mean a plant sprayer like they used to use on us during the 'all night meditations.' That's so we'd Grow in Knowledge. ;)

Subject: Yeah -- only certain types of Zen From: Francesca To: Dermot Date Posted: Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 17:31:36 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ... but I heard that the house coordinator in the brother's ashram down the road in LA used to hit the brothers who didn't look alert enough in meditation. OUCH! In some Zen groups, I hear they don't hit people with the stick, but it is used to sound the beginning and end of meditation, like a bell. See the picture. They may crack it near people who get sleepy tho. Maybe they aren't telling all. I think hitting people or scaring people is NG. B-a-a-a-d juju. --f picture of chugpi www.dharmacrafts.com/cgi-bin/miva?Merchant2/merchant.mv+Screen=PROD&Store_Code=Dha&Product_Code=2140&Hoffset=1&_back=4&History=%21%3A%3ASRCH%3A%3A&cn=&Dha_BBG=%23e7e6df&Dha_BTC=&Dha_II=graphics%2F00000001%2Fsp2k%2Ficon_i.gif&Dha_MI=graphics%2F00000001%2Fsp2k%2Fstorefront.jpg

Subject: Zzzzzzzzzzazen From: Pullaver To: Francesca Date Posted: Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 18:01:34 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It will wake you up without scaring you off your cushion! An apt description indeed!

Subject: Science From: Francesca To: Mike Finch Date Posted: Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 12:35:25 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: This quote below is interesting although not quite on the point you were making, sort of a sidebar. It's from a daily news service that I read. We have to remember that once there weren't microscopes to know whether bacteria really existed, and once we were all told the world was flat. Things aren't as certain and for sure as we'd sometimes like them to be. Science is great, but it's not the answer panacea that some would like it to be. And the scientists disagree with each other about many things. Cheers, Francesca WORTH THINKING ABOUT: THE COSMOS AIN'T WHAT IT USED TO BE Or maybe it is -- but we'll need more research to learn the answer. Scientist Brian L. Silver writes: 'When we gaze at distant galaxies, or at the birth of a far-off supernova, we are watching objects and events as they were billions of years ago. And all this is being done from the Earth and some satellites mainly confined to the solar system -- a ludicrously limited platform on which to put our instruments. 'Cosmologists have ventured to construct theories explaining the history of the universe. One of the tests of a theory is whether it can assimilate new facts naturally. The Big Bang theory was capable of doing this with the CBR (cosmic background radiation) and with the ratios of hydrogen to helium, and hydrogen to deuterium. It should be remembered that we are dealing with events that happened some 15 billion years ago under conditions far removed from anything man can create or observe today. The miracle is that the theory is moderately successful, but the theoreticians would be the first to admit that it is not successful enough.'

Subject: No, Science is most definitely a panacea From: Jim To: Francesca Date Posted: Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 20:04:20 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: We have to remember that once there weren't microscopes to know whether bacteria really existed, and once we were all told the world was flat. Science is an evolving process of discovering truth as well as a body of knowledge which keeps growing as well as self-correcting. If your point is that at any one time it's less than perfect, of course. But that just sends us back to the scientific drawing board. Fact is, there's no where else to look. But as for people once thinking the world was flat, I wonder what your point is. Surely science deserves the credit for dispelling that myth, not generating it. Things aren't as certain and for sure as we'd sometimes like them to be. Science is great, but it's not the answer panacea that some would like it to be. And the scientists disagree with each other about many things. Actually, there's a whole lot that's very certain now and that core knowledge just keeps expanding. Once in a blue moon, I guess, a fundamental proposition accepted as settled fact gets proven wrong and everyone's back to the drawing board but that generally only happens on the margins of scientific knowledge. And it's not as if we keep going in circles even when we do discover significant scientific error. In doing so, we normally improve our process as well as get even closer to the solid ground we mistakenly thought we occupied. Even when scientists disagree, that's just the process in action. Over the long term, the truth wins out. In fact, science is most definitely a panacea as, when you think about it, it's the only way we ever really have of truly learning things about the natural world.

Subject: Yer right about the flat earth theory From: Francesca :~) To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, Feb 28, 2002 at 15:33:35 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: That came from the Bible via some ancient Egyptian theory and not from science. I'm sure that back in those days, the scientists got in trouble for finding out what was really going on. Here's an interesting link. Here's a snip: In the sixth century this theological reasoning was still further developed, as we have seen, by Cosmas Indicopleustes. Finding a sanction for the old Egyptian theory of the universe in the ninth chapter of Hebrews, he insisted that the earth is a flat parallelogram, and that from its outer edges rise immense walls supporting the firmament; then, throwing together the reference to the firmament in Genesis and the outburst of poetry in the Psalms regarding the 'waters that be above the heavens,' he insisted that over the terrestrial universe are solid arches bearing a vault supporting a vast cistern 'containing the waters'; finally, taking from Genesis the expression regarding the 'windows of heaven,' he insisted that these windows are opened and closed by the angels whenever the Almighty wishes to send rain upon the earth or to withhold it. -F Religion and Science atheism.about.com/library/texts/white/bl_white_11_01a.htm?terms=Earth+Is+Flat+Theory

Subject: I'll reply to this one anyway From: Jim To: Mike Finch Date Posted: Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 11:57:03 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Mike, I don't know if you're going to say something much more expansive from these ideas or not but I'll respond to this post anyway. Just can't do it now. Later.

Subject: Re: I'll reply to this one anyway From: Mike Finch To: Jim Date Posted: Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 12:35:11 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I don't know if you're going to say something much more expansive from these ideas or not Nor do I - I started off with bullet points as I said, but as I got into it the bullet points got larger and expanded !! So I'll wait for your reply - I am sure that will trigger an expanded response from me ! -- Mike

Subject: Are there any good religions? From: Francesca :~) To: Mike Finch Date Posted: Tues, Feb 26, 2002 at 19:14:55 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I know you're partial to Therevada, but don't forget Mahayana Buddhism. Mahayana is also about peace and compassion. And I don't think Vajrayana is different in that regard -- just a little more complex. But no religion is 'good,' I agree! Only beings can be good, or not, and that's of course according to one's definition of good. Bests, F

Subject: Re: Are there any good religions? From: Mike Finch To: Francesca :~) Date Posted: Tues, Feb 26, 2002 at 20:24:05 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ...but don't forget Mahayana Buddhism No I didn't. I am not sure that I go so far as Pat in calling it mumbo-jumbo, but here in Cambridge Mass I went to a few Tibetan Buddhist meetings (Dzogchen), and while the meditation sessions were OK, there was a lot of cult or religious stuff that went with it - chanting, bowing and scraping, elaborate altar with pictures of great lamas etc, and most important, a belief system that you had to swallow. I also found the adherents, when they approached the lama, were all grovelling and hands clasped. In short, I found it 'religious' in the most negative aspect of the word, and a million miles from the Theravada style, which seems to me as non-religious a 'religion' as you can get. -- Mike

Subject: That's Vajrayana From: Francesca :~) To: Mike Finch Date Posted: Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 00:38:25 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Mike, Tibetan Buddhism is Vajrayana, and I found all the same problems with it you did. It sold itself as a non-religion with at least as much dogma as the Catholic Church! I studied Tibetan Buddhism for quite a few years, and, done in the traditional manner, I consider it to be a cult, albeit a peaceful one. Some scholars call it 'Lamaism.' Vajrayana has elements of Mahayana, but is not the same. I know that the meditations taught by Thich Nhat Hahn, for example, are considered Mahayana Zen. --F

Subject: Re: That's Vajrayana From: Mike Finch To: Francesca :~) Date Posted: Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 11:49:19 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I accept your distinction between Vajrayana and Mahayana, and I will write fuller in response to your email - give me a day or two though, as I am flying tonight to England for two weeks. Take care -- Mike

Subject: But then there IS pesky reality. From: bill To: Mike Finch Date Posted: Tues, Feb 26, 2002 at 23:27:00 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Mike, and all of course, If we are going to judge religions, we will have to also see how far from reality they are. Buddha thinks there is an unconcious oneness and a 'wheel' or a series of spots available to dead buddhists that arent ready or willing to plunge into the unconcious oneness and dissolve themselves. The Dali Lama, chickenshit that he is, has chosen time and again to come in a body instead of completeing his task to lose himself in the unconcious pool. He IS of course, the guy who occupies the closest spot (whenever he is dead) to the pool. But, instead of making room for the next guy, he keeps his spot and clogs up the whole flow of the after death wheel. Of course, the spin is that he is doing it for OUR good. Thanks dali! Buddha also thinks women have a slim chance in this whole process he outlined. How the unconcious oneness is able, in its sleep, to give us a pass on some whim and let us merge is or course not explained. Neither is it clearly thought out how or WHY one would have to live in some way to qualify to stop coming back in a body. And WHY, some unconcious oneness, would even KNOW that we were seperate somehow, and why something unconcious would or could CARE what kind of shape we were in when we merged back in and also, how would it even notice! And to provide some fear, buddha says -if we dont do it, we go through millions of lives of suffering just, well, BECAUSE! Thanks buddha! Hope you dont mind trying to do the impossible in this short life of yours! Try to merge when all the EVIDENCE shows we cant and shouldnt even try. Thanks primitive assumptions from the middle ages that look good and holy only shrouded in the mists of our incomplete knowledge of history. By the way MIKE FINCH, thanks a real lot for your work with Michael Dettmers. Mike Dettmers has only been responsible and forthright and has enough integrity to do what is right even though it was hard. Mohammed cant stand the light of day frankly either, but at least he is not as dense as buddha. Jesus deserves applause even if he is a deluded fake because he at least made the case that ==god and the devil are working buddies==. His statement ''the devil knows not for whom he works''. And, if you are going to have one commandment, you cant do much better than 'love others and yourself (and the god/devil) Of course in a way, there you go again with mission impossible ! TRY loving others! TRY loving yourself with your built in human nature and inablity to be constant. AND try to love god when you know more about him! Easy to love a image! Best to try to see it all as it is I guess. Then again, dream away, what the hell! If we were meant to have it all clear, we wouldnt have human nature like we do. Makes for the most creativity overall, and for the god/devil in his game with himself here, our human nature makes us controlable to an interesting extent. But that is another subject.

Subject: Well finally, Bill From: PatC To: bill Date Posted: Tues, Feb 26, 2002 at 23:36:39 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I nagged you for months to give me your POV of Buddhism and now finally you wrote a bit about it. I guess I should be grateul for small mercies. Are you are Zoroastrian since you seem to think that god is both the light and the darkness?

Subject: Subject:: From: bill To: PatC Date Posted: Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 20:09:54 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: a thousand pardons Pat! I did forget! I heard or read that Zoroster died in a hall filled with meditators and the bad guys came in and cut thier heads off while they were trying to pretend that they were meditating enough to not care. Zoroster had told them to ignore and meditate. I cant imagine that they had any more luck than we have. Must have been a drag! Dying because Zoroster said something unpleasant about the prevailing religious concept of the time. The local power structure as usual demanding death of the opponent. That is so, well, HUMAN! I think I needed the time to digest what I had been learning about buddha and take the time till I could spit it out with a bit of cheer. I would doubt that zoroster said any paragraphs that I would consider the last word on the subject. He was just trying to figure it out and I am sure he didnt manage to really fully understand it. It aint like these holy guys got to go ''inside'' or get a vision where they find themselves standing in front of a written out explanation in the reality here. It was all guesswork. Figureing, analysis, assumptions, reaching for insights and maybe coming up with some amount of perhaps usable perhaps close to accurate concepts. We still get to figure it out, for ourselves, because we make for a more adventurous story when we are gropeing, vulnerable to all manner of perceptions and misperceptions which the god gets to manipulate and use. For his fun I guess.

Subject: Thus spake Zarathusa From: PatC To: bill Date Posted: Thurs, Feb 28, 2002 at 03:14:03 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Sometimes your philosophy or outlook on life seems a bit pessimistic to me but I know it is not totally unrealistic. But I also sometimes wonder if the idea that we are at the mercy of fate, gods and devils, does not induce pessimism or is that fatalism. Even if I am deluded I prefer to think that I am the master of my destiny even if I don't have complete control. I do to some extent sympathise with your Murphyism but am a bit more rebellious against it than you are. At least we all have control over our reactions to events beyond our control.

Subject: What do I mean by ''good?'' From: PatC To: Mike Finch Date Posted: Tues, Feb 26, 2002 at 18:07:56 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: As you said, I need to define what I mean by good. But, no, I don't think there are anymore good religions. Maybe they were once an improvemnt on the status quo of their time but they are now all obsolete and atavistic. Maybe there aren't any totally good religions but there are good people who believe in iffy religions (most of which seem to have a few redeeming qualities but almost as many damning ones.) That is if, by religion, you mean mostly ethics. Nowadays the only meaningful religion is the study of the brain and mind. And I admit my culpability for recently popularizing ''the most meaningless of Forum 7 mots du jour'' - ''pre-scientific .'' I promise I will try to find a better word. :P

Subject: Definition From: Tim G To: Mike Finch Date Posted: Tues, Feb 26, 2002 at 17:58:49 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yep Mike At best they could just be launching pads...at best. But I tend to agree with the man who said 'religions are the frozen thoughts of man' Greetings Tim

Subject: 'religions are the frozen thoughts of man' From: Crispy To: Tim G Date Posted: Tues, Feb 26, 2002 at 23:14:29 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks Tim, what a great quote! freeze that. No wait, better yet: let me save it, let me print it out, let me put it in a book, let me show it to my friends, let me never forget it, let me study it every day, let me know it inside out, let me come to call it my own, let me charge $ and sell copies of the book, let me start my own religious cult, let the 10th generation behind me start scratching their heads and on and on and on and on and on.... ......

Subject: Lost in time. From: Sulla To: Mike Finch Date Posted: Tues, Feb 26, 2002 at 17:26:41 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'Is a 'good' religion one that fires people up to get them moving and enthused with the work ethic, so that society can produce (and consume) loads of stuff - then probably Judeo-Christianity comes near the top.' When you say Judeo-Christianity are you talking about Catholics, Jews and Christians or all of them? I don't thing there is such thing as bad or good religions these days. People are the ones who can be or behave either way. I thing some people were lost in time and not very well informed after being in a cult for so long.

Subject: Amen, and pass the ammunition! From: Gregg To: PatC Date Posted: Tues, Feb 26, 2002 at 14:01:31 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks, PatC. I especially appreciate the distinction (and your call for the distinction to be emphasized rather than glossed over in the name of Christian solidarity) between Christic and JudeoChristian religion. I am constantly appalled by what these fundies do with the Bible. Especially their call to castigate queers while, somehow, these same self-professed literalists can eat shellfish while simutaneously wearing linen and cotton together! Why does the mixing of fabrics not disturb their religious sensibilities? You're right, the Buddhists have probably been one of the least harmful religions (and to do no harm is an important Buddhist precept). There are exceptions, of course. The Buddhists have killed people in Sri Lanka, although self-defense could be a valid defense, the Budhhists being a minority and facing the vicious (and sometimes suicidal) Tamil Tigers. I think a vital part of a religion's impact has to do with how closely they are related to a particular culture. Hinduism is really too closely tied up with matters of dress, diet, and caste peculiar to the Indian subcontinent to really export well. Unless, of course, you quietly excise the hyper-Hindu bits, as did you-know-who. Buddhism, on the other hand, has moved from culture to culture with relative ease, adapting to different peoples easily. (On a side note, so has Catholicism, which, in the Third World, conveniently ignores some of the more bizarre aspects of syncretistic religions which are nominally Catholic.) Buddhism died out in India, pretty much, but found a home in Southeast Asia, a temporary home in China, a nice theocultural niche in Japan, and, then (here's where I've got a Bon to pick with you, Pat) Tibet. The marriage of native Shamanistic tradition with the latest thang from down South may have produced a religion quite a bit more colorful than Japanese Zen, but....mumbo jumbo? The basic principles remain the same, although the techniques (and the 'means') obviously differ.

Subject: Okay, pick your bone, Gregg From: PatC To: Gregg Date Posted: Tues, Feb 26, 2002 at 14:19:45 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You're entitled. I confess to complete ignorance of Tibetan Buddhism. Reading Leary's ''The Psychedelic Experience According to the Tibetan Book of the Dead'' gave me my first non-drug-induced trip. But when the acid haze wore off a few years later it all seemed so silly and when it came to tantra, mantra and yantra, I gave up. It was a cheap dig on my part. Fire away.

Subject: acid memories... From: Gregg To: PatC Date Posted: Tues, Feb 26, 2002 at 14:34:15 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Reminds me of my first trip. I had stupidly dropped fifteen minutes before my friends were due to pick me up. They were late, so I was in the living room with my parents, discussing colleges, when the urge to laugh at it all began creeping up on me. Luckily, Tod and Mark arrived shortly, and off I went. I was reading that same book, Leary's Book of the Dead, in the car, laughing my ass off, not at the words (who knew what they intended to mean?), but at the fact of words on a page, the texture of the paper itself...hey, I better stop before I have a flashback. I'm at work.

Subject: Can imagine Gregg....funny:) [nt] From: Dermot To: Gregg Date Posted: Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 19:35:26 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: acid memories... From: Pullaver To: Gregg Date Posted: Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 16:41:46 (EST) Email Address: pullaver@yahoo.ca Message: Jeez, it was all crystal clear on acid. Zen and the Tao was what existed when we were in the flow of our consciousness (awareness) without the commentary of the analytical mind. Acid, chemically turned off the taps of the constantly commenting mind, while the goal of meditation was to slow our thought process sufficiently that we were conscious (aware) of our consciousness or at least conscious of the difference between our thoughts and consciousness itself. To be in that place was to experience a kind of high or 'bliss'. As in truth is the consciousness of bliss (of what is). That was just a statement of fact. To know that which exists without our internal dialogue saying it exists. Truth is a loaded term but it is meant to refer to that which exists (our consciousness) without our thoughts. No, there is nothing wrong (or false) with thoughts or a mind or scientific reasoning, it's just that real full-on consciousness/awareness and thought rarely occupy the same space at the same time. Thoughts come after (we're probably talking nanoseconds here) and that's okay. Reality is what is and thoughts are reflections on that reality. Every good acid head remembers the acid smile. I don't make the rules, but something is going on that our analytical minds can no doubt prove empirically and our consciousness know 'intuitively'. Of course it can be argued that whatever it is I'm talking about is a pharmacological effect on the brain. Or perhaps it is what Aldous Huxley referred to as unlocking the doors of perception.

Subject: Crystal clarity From: JohnT To: Pullaver Date Posted: Sat, Mar 02, 2002 at 03:09:25 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You paint well! What a picture of everyday consciousness as an interleaving, a synthesis of knowing that which exists without our internal dialogue saying it exists. and the thoughts, the words that come after as reflections on that reality. I particularly liked something is going on that our analytical minds can no doubt prove empirically and our consciousness know 'intuitively'. I know intuitively that part of what is going on with me is a conscious exercise of free will, that I flow time -- I am not just flowed in it.

Subject: Re: acid memories... From: Francesca To: Gregg Date Posted: Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 00:40:39 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You're bringing it all back home, great description of the liftoff. Funny comment about picking a Bon. I'm assuming that wasn't a typo and you were referring to Bon, the "pagan" religion onto which the Tibetans grafted Buddhism. -f

Subject: Re: acid memories... From: Deputy To: Francesca Date Posted: Thurs, Feb 28, 2002 at 00:08:33 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Fran, you and I would get along [nt] From: Deputy Dog To: Deputy Date Posted: Thurs, Feb 28, 2002 at 00:13:03 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: acid memories... From: PatC To: Francesca Date Posted: Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 03:18:31 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You're bringing it all back home, great description of the liftoff. Funny comment about picking a Bon. I'm assuming that wasn't a typo and you were referring to Bon, the "pagan" religion onto which the Tibetans grafted Buddhism. -f --- Too funny. I didn't even think of that. Thank goodness Bon is already on the bonfire of vanities and lamajism and gurujism will soon be too or am I being too optimistic?

Subject: There's quite a weenie roast going here! [nt] From: Francesca To: PatC Date Posted: Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 11:43:07 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Acid flashbacks at work From: PatC To: Gregg Date Posted: Tues, Feb 26, 2002 at 14:55:58 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Like the time I smoked a joint in the toilet in the pharmacy I worked at in London and it triggered a laughing jag. All the customers looked like weird cartoons a la ''Fritz the Cat.'' I tried so hard not to laugh in their faces that it made me paranpoid and the next thing I was serving creatures straight out of an Hieronymos Bosch painting. Thank god no one started plucking and barbecuing the angels I saw hovering around the fluorescent lights.

Subject: Fucking hilarious pics/posts Pat/Rich et al [nt] From: Dermot To: PatC Date Posted: Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 19:36:49 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Musta been some good shit! / nt From: Carl To: PatC Date Posted: Tues, Feb 26, 2002 at 18:32:48 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yowza

Subject: the best! From Jagger's gofer From: PatC To: Carl Date Posted: Tues, Feb 26, 2002 at 18:49:10 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jagger sent his gofer to get his prescription painkillers from the pharmacy on Gloucester Road where I worked and he supplied us with fab hashish.

Subject: Hieronymus Bosch From: PatC To: PatC Date Posted: Tues, Feb 26, 2002 at 15:04:26 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I can't find any of his drawings of angels being plucked and roasted over an open fire. Will this do? Hieronymus Bosch www.ibiblio.org/wm/paint/auth/bosch/judge/judge-c.jpg

Subject: My boss by Bosch From: PatC To: PatC Date Posted: Tues, Feb 26, 2002 at 15:15:31 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: My boss on acid. www.ibiblio.org/wm/paint/auth/bosch/delight/delightd.jpg

Subject: And a good trip From: PatC To: PatC Date Posted: Tues, Feb 26, 2002 at 15:17:02 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The Garden of Earthly Delights www.ibiblio.org/wm/paint/auth/bosch/delight/delightc.jpg

Subject: And a good tripper From: Richard To: PatC Date Posted: Tues, Feb 26, 2002 at 18:29:03 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Conlon's brain on drugs 64.45.46.159/photo/conlonwarhol.jpg

Subject: That's not fair, Richard From: PatC To: Richard Date Posted: Tues, Feb 26, 2002 at 18:38:49 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It's an old pic of my brain. I've had a transplant since then.

Subject: Re: That's not fair, Richard From: Richard To: PatC Date Posted: Tues, Feb 26, 2002 at 20:33:26 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Come on Pat, a brain transplant? How totally revisionist of you. Well, turn about is fair play so here's one of myself captured on one of those special cameras that let's you bring your memories back from the trip. Postie on acid 64.45.46.159/photo/rracid.jpg

Subject: Looks like your transplant went wrong too Richard [nt] From: PatC To: Richard Date Posted: Tues, Feb 26, 2002 at 23:19:04 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Nice essay Pat From: Richard To: PatC Date Posted: Tues, Feb 26, 2002 at 11:56:51 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Pat, your lesson got me thinking. One of the most hideous, destructive and violent of all religions has evolved (devolved?) in modern times. I am speaking of Consumerism. Many of us grew up at a time when the two great world religions of Communism and Capitalism were locked in a death match to the finish. Communism fell apart first and fortunately the world was not torn apart in a thermonuclear war. Capitalism, being so strongly tied to JudeoChristianism, must have surely been god's favorite at least in the minds of the Capitalists. Now Capitalism has become more horrible as Consumerism. It is the belief that the more crap we produce and consume the more powerful we are. We worship daily at the Church of Consumerism known as malls. We hear the gospel spoken via TV and dutifully perform sacraments of excercising our purchasing power. And many of Consumerisms adherents truly believe that one day the religion will be spread over the globe. 'Grow the World Economy' being one of the battle cries. Consumerism threatens to destroy the world through destruction of rain forests, air pollution, etc ad nauseum. And the congregation sits happily secure in the knowledge that surely we are loved by god because we have so much crap. "It's my experience and my very own MacMansion so screw everyone else". And there's even a Consumerist afterlife stated as "He Who Has The Most Toys When He Dies, Wins". Consumerism is the biggest cult of all. Thanks Pat for your brilliant essay. It certainly kicked me off on a rant. Not that my musings hold water but I had fun with it anyway.

Subject: I forgot about shopping, Richard From: PatC To: Richard Date Posted: Tues, Feb 26, 2002 at 13:24:11 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: That's America's real religion and why millions make pilgrimages here. Eventhough I'm not rich enough to be either a dedicated premie or consumer, I don't knock shopping completely. It's a mixed blessing - does all the stuff you said but I'm afraid I am a dyed-in-the-wool freemarketeer and worship in the cathedrals of capitalism whenever I can. But I recycle religiously to make up for being such a nasty capitalist American. :C)

Subject: Re: I forgot about shopping From: Richard To: PatC Date Posted: Tues, Feb 26, 2002 at 14:15:29 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Ditto for me, PatC. I recycle away my guilt for helping to destroy indigenous cultures worldwide. It's so easy for me to wax philosophically in front of my 24' Sony Wega and DVD, driving down the road in my sports car (well it is 10 years old) and sleeping in my rosewood bed (18 years old). It's not so much the shopping that bothers me but the rampant over consumption our so-called culture worships. Say, maybe if we all focused on That Love, we'd not need to consume to fill the void. ;)

Subject: That love, that bliss, that feeling within inside From: PatC To: Richard Date Posted: Tues, Feb 26, 2002 at 14:26:34 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Judging by Rawat I would say that bliss just turns one into more of a consumer or - sneaky thought - maybe he eats and buys so much because he really doesn't practice it or feel it. He's trying to fill that thirst, that hunger, that emptiness within inside with.......goodies.

Subject: Smoking From: Richard To: PatC Date Posted: Tues, Feb 26, 2002 at 15:03:14 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: A big drip for me, after my born again early 90's phase, was seeing all the PWKs and PAMs standing outside the Long Beach convention center smoking Marlboros - supposedly M's nicotine delivery system of choice. Maybe I'm an old purist but is smoking part of Enjoying Life or Destroying Life? Rhetorical question.

Subject: Re: Smoking From: PatC To: Richard Date Posted: Tues, Feb 26, 2002 at 15:10:36 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: As a closet smoker in the cult I must say that I was shocked that honcho premies started doing it so openly. For twenty years I was the only American smoking secretly with the French premies in out of the way places.

Subject: heh heh Pat and Richard nt From: Disculta-flitting-thru To: PatC Date Posted: Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 07:23:56 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: gagrhat

Subject: Stop for a while and have a cuppa From: PatC To: Disculta-flitting-thru Date Posted: Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 13:51:31 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I've been wondering where you got to?

Subject: more or less ...OT From: wolfie To: Richard Date Posted: Tues, Feb 26, 2002 at 12:16:16 (EST) Email Address: none Message: Hi Richard, and America is the leading power. A lot of criticism against America is from those you does not want to follow that religion. And the funny thing is that even 'The Lord of the Univers' bows his head in front of the altar of this religion. Now it's really getting dark. More or less a joke, but with some truth in it......wolfie.....sitting in front of TV and changing my mind with the channels...........why I waste my time with watching so much bullshit.......maybe it's a new kind of serving the Master of that religion...sounds sarcastic......maybe I'm hurt?

Subject: Salutations, Doctor Conlon From: Tonette To: PatC Date Posted: Tues, Feb 26, 2002 at 09:48:16 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Wow, where did you learn all that? Seriously! Great post. Tonette

Subject: I din't know I knew it till I wrote it From: PatC To: Tonette Date Posted: Tues, Feb 26, 2002 at 13:26:51 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I write mostly to learn something or as my mother used to say: ''How can you know what you think until you see what you say?''

Subject: Your mother was cool From: Tonette To: PatC Date Posted: Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 10:03:54 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: And so are you. Your post gave me much food for thought. Filled in a few blanks in regards to how did this whole religion evolve and more importantly, where is it heading? Ever thought about teaching a college course? You'd be good at it and your perspective is like a breath of fresh air! Fondly, Tonette

Subject: Re: Your mother was cool From: PatC To: Tonette Date Posted: Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 13:41:23 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: My mother was an interesting woman - of course I did not see that at first and thought she was an ignoramus, uneducated but as arrogant and opinionated as I have turned out to be. Yet she drew intellectuals to her who loved and respected her because at least she thought things through in her own words and didn't regurgitate cliches constantly. When I tried to describe to her what LSD did for me she replied: ''The bliss that you say it makes you feel is always there anyway and you'll it see it more when you aren't so young and busy all the time but why would you want anything to clutter up your mind with more imaginings when you haven't yet even understood or appreciated how magical and wonderful reality is?'' When I told her that Rawat had shown me how to get in touch with the bliss inside, she said: ''I'm sorry that you had to find it through another human being. Maybe he's a good man as you say he is but why has he turned it into a religion? Are you sure he's not just in it for the money.'' Yes, she hated religions and preachers. PS I wanted to be a teacher but had no money for college except a scholarship for pharmacy school so I had to do that. I can't teach in college because I have no formal education other than how to count pills. But the halls of academe would have suited me better. I could easily have enjoyed studying for the rest of my life. If I'd been born rich maybe I would have been a scholar.

Subject: Nice going Pat From: Richard To: PatC Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 14:44:21 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Your mom was indeed wise and passed her wisdom onto her darling son. As far as your scholorship, you could have chosen no more interesting a place than the bizarre world of premies to do your research. Besides, you are a scholar for life and have taught us much of what you've learned. That makes you a teacher.

Subject: Where were you yesterday, Richard? From: PatC To: Richard Date Posted: Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 15:03:42 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: When I needed some sweet talk as I was feeling a bit bummed. Thanks, you are making my day but then you usually do ever since our little love fest last year around about this time. I really appreciate you too.

Subject: You Mother was very wise [nt] From: Cynthia To: PatC Date Posted: Tues, Feb 26, 2002 at 13:53:25 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Thanx Pat, I enjoyed that (nt) From: Pullaver To: PatC Date Posted: Tues, Feb 26, 2002 at 08:16:21 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Swashbuckling Stuff pat. Hurray !More! From: Bryn To: PatC Date Posted: Tues, Feb 26, 2002 at 07:52:14 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I don't particularly like arguing about religion, but I liked your account of the history of religion a lot. I tend to be ontological, slow moving and reflective in my approach. I find it hard to swagger! Thanks for the read. Excellent. Love Bryn

Subject: Swashbuckling? From: PatC To: Bryn Date Posted: Tues, Feb 26, 2002 at 13:29:42 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Ouch! Yes, I've always been a show-off and exhibitionist. Since it has not been kosher to run around nude since I was two, I guess I show off in other ways. :P

Subject: No ouch intended Pat nt. From: Bryn To: PatC Date Posted: Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 07:49:32 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: dfg

Subject: Here's what's bad in my view From: Sir Dave To: PatC Date Posted: Tues, Feb 26, 2002 at 06:36:18 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I think the claiming that one's religion or philosophy is the truth, is bad. Preaching to others that they are wrong and misguided and that you are right, is downright arrogant. I'd also include the religion of Atheism in the above statement.

Subject: Wrong, Dave From: Jim To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Tues, Feb 26, 2002 at 11:58:44 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I think the claiming that one's religion or philosophy is the truth, is bad. Preaching to others that they are wrong and misguided and that you are right, is downright arrogant. I'd also include the religion of Atheism in the above statement. --- First, all religions by definition claim they are the truth. Expecting people to 'respect' other religions is a fuzzy, liberal kind of relativism that really makes a mockery of all religions. The whole point of any one religion is that it alone supposedly explains the truth. Second, atheism is far from a religion. Every atheist knows that of course it's possible that there's a god out there somewhere. There just isn't any evidence of one. To call that a religion turns the word on its head.

Subject: Right Jim, I think From: Sir Dave To: Jim Date Posted: Tues, Feb 26, 2002 at 13:21:03 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Surely if a person ''knows that of course it's possible that there's a god out there somewhere'' they'd be an agnostic. The statement I've quoted could have been written by me and I'm agnostic. Surely an atheist refutes completely the possibility of such a thing as God. While I admit that there's scant evidence of God, I could never, hand on heart, believe completely that there was no God. But wouldn't an atheist believe that? Of course, I might have put that last sentence in my original post to get a response. But I wouldn't be that devious, would I?

Subject: No, I disagree From: Jim To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Tues, Feb 26, 2002 at 20:25:32 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: An atheist is someone who does not believe in the existence of God. But surely any atheist with even the slightest exposure to science will have to concede that there might, in fact, be some God out there even though there's not a scintilla of evidence for same. That's just common sense. Like talking about pink unicorns. That's far from being a religion, thank you very much. An agonistic is someone who is truly uncertain what to believe.

Subject: Freudian typo: 'agonistic'?! :) [nt] From: Nigel To: Jim Date Posted: Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 15:20:41 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: That's why I prefer the word ''nontheist'' From: PatC To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Tues, Feb 26, 2002 at 13:34:29 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Atheism has a history of being a bit dogmatic. ''Agnostic'' really means simply that you don't believe in revelatory religion. So, I'm a nontheist - I don't really care if there is a god or not. He never answered any of my prayers anyway. Well, I guess that's because god helps those who help themselves.

Subject: Think about how inverted that is! From: Jim To: PatC Date Posted: Tues, Feb 26, 2002 at 20:30:36 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Atheism has a history of being a bit dogmatic. ''Agnostic'' really means simply that you don't believe in revelatory religion. So, I'm a nontheist - I don't really care if there is a god or not. He never answered any of my prayers anyway. Well, I guess that's because god helps those who help themselves. --- How could atheism be dogmatic if there's no such thing as any atheism dogma? And there isn't, no matter how much religious types try to drag atheism down to their level. No, it's not a matter of faith, there is no dogma, it's not a religion ..... it's a rejection of all that.

Subject: Madeleine Murray O'Hare From: PatC To: Jim Date Posted: Tues, Feb 26, 2002 at 23:28:54 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: O'Hare and even to an extent George Bernard Shaw proselytized atheism with the utmost religious and dogmatic zeal. A scientist can't be so sure so I just can't attach that label to myself. I know exactly what you mean and I know I'm splitting hairs by not like the word ''agnostic'' (the opposite of gnostic, meaning a believer in direct revelatory knowledge) so I use nontheistic. I wish there was a short word for ''I haven't got a clue and don't care one way or the other if there is a god or not as the enquiry is currently beyond the scope of the scientific tools we have at out disposal.'' Oh, all right, I won't be a nitpicker. I'll call myself an atheist since both GBS and O'Hare are dead anyway - the latter's body never found but presumed murdered.

Subject: You don't know how good it feels to win one! From: Jim To: PatC Date Posted: Tues, Feb 26, 2002 at 23:46:19 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Bottom line, Pat -- I won and you lost. Do you know how good that feels? Imagine, if you can, being me for a moment. Here I am thinking 'God, there's that Pat guy in San Fran [I would think that just to bug you. 'San Fran' indeed!] and here he's posted this long, excellent summary of the history of world religions and I just whupped his ass on where HE fits into the whole thing. Um UM good! It doesn't get a whole lot better than that, my SELF-ADMITTED ATHEIST friend. I think I'll sign off for the night and drive up to Laurie's where I can tell her what a good day I had in court, er, I mean on the forum, er, same difference? Well ... er... Jim Who scapegoats grievances, sublimates anything and everything and keep score even after the game :)

Subject: Lawyers are descended from jousters From: PatC To: Jim Date Posted: Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 03:44:52 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Many an ancient legal tort was settled on the jousting fields and duelling grounds of old before courts of law became established. Most of the lawyers I have known think like fencers (since I know nothing about fencing let me rather say boxers as I've done it but it doesn't fit lawyering as an analogy as well as fencing does - not gentlemanly enough.) Obviously a competitive nature is needed in an adversarial setting and the motivation is the reward of winning. Unfortunately my horoscope says that I am unbalanced when it comes to healthy competition and always tend to totally destroy my opponent over the long haul instead of just disabling him with a wound immediately in order to win a single round. I don't cede till the fat lady sings and with a bit of luck I'll still sit in the loge of the Opera House one day listening to a large lady opera singer while watching tears stimulated by a fine cabernet streaming down your cheeks as you turn to me and say: ''Pat, you were right. Opera is music for the mind and rock for the appendix.'' But more seriously: how dare you call San Francisco ''San Fran?'' I may even have forgiven your using ''Frisco'' because we usually pity and graciously forgive the boors who do - knowing that they're probably from Peoria anyway and have to return there. But San Fran is beyond the pail. It is used only by second-hand car salesmen and other hucksters.

Subject: Why dont' youse like 'San Fran'? [nt] From: Jim To: PatC Date Posted: Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 11:32:38 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: All you Californians and From: Sir Dave To: PatC Date Posted: Tues, Feb 26, 2002 at 16:05:43 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: your big words. (Yeah I know, S Afican). But I wonder how you say it? The stress on the ''non'' or the ''theist''? Be careful calling yourself a nonth, since it nearly sounds like ''nonce'' which is a bad slang word here. By the way, the article you wrote about religions was very informative and I've saved it. Thanks.

Subject: I know what nonce means, Sir D From: PatC To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Tues, Feb 26, 2002 at 18:13:22 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I've read Shakespeare. I'm almost as much a limey as a Boer or a Californian since I lived in each place so long. But do you know what the word ''ornery'' means. That's you to a tee. Always good for a contrarian POV. :C)

Subject: Yes I know ornery but From: Sir Dave To: PatC Date Posted: Tues, Feb 26, 2002 at 21:08:14 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: what the hell's POV? I guess it's one of those abbreviations that everyone knows except me, having lived such a sheltered life.

Subject: POV = point of view From: PatC To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Tues, Feb 26, 2002 at 23:31:54 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It's also the name of a talking heads TV show.

Subject: My respect Prof. PatC...... From: wolfie To: PatC Date Posted: Tues, Feb 26, 2002 at 06:33:12 (EST) Email Address: none Message: I'm impressed. You are really into it. I will think about it and reread your scientific research. Intresting stuff, very intresting. So much can be explained with that perspective. I think I cant't find much arguments, the only one in the moment is that I still think or accept that there is a religious aspect in my life and this for me is a deep adoration for this creation with countless wonders and countless capacities in human beings. It's like falling in love when it touches you with the idea of eternity, maybe it's only brain chemiestry, but I love the poetic side more than the sientific one, but this I think is humanism or? ciao ....wolfie

Subject: That's my religion too. Wolfie From: PatC To: wolfie Date Posted: Tues, Feb 26, 2002 at 13:36:45 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You said: ''....there is a religious aspect in my life and this for me is a deep adoration for this creation with countless wonders and countless capacities in human beings...'' Amen and hallelujiah.

Subject: Second Amen, Wolfie & PatC (nt) From: ChrisP To: PatC Date Posted: Tues, Feb 26, 2002 at 14:23:52 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Kudos! Dr. Conlon... [nt] From: Cynthia To: wolfie Date Posted: Tues, Feb 26, 2002 at 11:20:58 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: (Christian) Jehovahs Witnesses of course From: Dermot To: PatC Date Posted: Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 23:37:27 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'n surprised you haven't heard the Good News.....anyway, now that I've got your attention and you're pinned against the wall, may I tell you more about it? It'll only take a few hours.... :)

Subject: I posted above on SatC and it appeared here? [nt] From: Dermot To: Dermot Date Posted: Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 23:39:55 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: his wonders to perform. :C) NT From: PatC: God moves in mysterious ways To: Dermot Date Posted: Tues, Feb 26, 2002 at 13:39:07 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: I wanted it that way. From: God To: Dermot Date Posted: Tues, Feb 26, 2002 at 13:25:44 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I thought your post should be on Forum 7 where it would get all the attention it deserves.

Subject: You're a real pal. :P [nt] From: PatC - Gee, thanks, God To: God Date Posted: Tues, Feb 26, 2002 at 13:40:17 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: See now? There's your proof... SHE exists! From: Mirror To: PatC - Gee, thanks, God Date Posted: Tues, Feb 26, 2002 at 17:33:02 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: God finally answered you! Wonderful essay Pat. Thank you. Mirror

Subject: But, who do she think she be, Mirror? From: PatC To: Mirror Date Posted: Tues, Feb 26, 2002 at 18:16:03 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: That's a ghetto phrase here meaning, ''She sure acts high and mighty!''

Subject: Or rather, who do 'I' think [s]he is From: Mirror To: PatC Date Posted: Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 04:12:37 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It seems like our belief in the [non]existence of God is primarily dependent on what we believe God to be in the first place. As I see it, there are almost as many opinions on that issue as there are people, despite the human inclination to organizing and expressing this belief collectively. What if I do not believe in your definition of God, but do believe in mine? Does [s]he then exist, or not? Who's got the correct version of God? To me, the whole God-issue is so related to mental and emotional conditioning through one's education and cultural input that I don't think a concensus will ever be found. There is a unique [non]god for each individual. However, the better I listen to other people's definitions and the more I am open to the possibility of my own definition being subject to inaccuracies, the larger my God becomes. My God is very changeable; just about as changeable as life itself. Mirror

Subject: If there is a god...... From: PatC To: Mirror Date Posted: Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 14:06:46 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You said: ''To me, the whole God-issue is so related to mental and emotional conditioning through one's education and cultural input that I don't think a concensus will ever be found. There is a unique [non]god for each individual.'' I was just answering Tonette's post above about my mother and realized that I really did learn most of what I think about god etc from my mother. The only difference is that she was comfortable using the word GOD whereas I am not because of the primitive meanings associated with it. She would say that god was not someone or something but just love and that could not be analyzed or turned into a religion. Well, Rawat said something similar and so he caught me but later it turned out that he was talking about love for him. My mom tried hard to understand my devotion to him and watched videos with me the last time she came to visit before dying but she still could not tolerate the fact that he had turned it into a religion and was getting very rich. If god is love, I've learned more from ordinary people like bus-drivers and my dogs than I ever did from Rawat.

Subject: Re: If there is a god...... From: Cynthia To: PatC Date Posted: Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 17:31:10 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yes, Pat, Mothers can be so wise. My mother always told me that if I felt I was too fat, to stop eating so much. She also said, if you don't believe in God, believe in yourself. I never got that message until recently... She also said if anyone tries to hurt you (meaning men, mostly so don't take offense) just kick 'em in the balls. Oh, yes, she always tell me that worry is a waste of time. She tells me that often and with more and more conviction. Why worry, she'll say, something is going to happen regardless...why lose sleep? Love, Cynthia

Subject: Re: If there is a god...... From: PatC To: Cynthia Date Posted: Thurs, Feb 28, 2002 at 03:20:33 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: By the time we were old enough to appreciate our mom's wisdom I guess they had already done their fair share of worrying (as by now we have too) and had figured it was a waste of time just as we are beginning to do as well. The joke is that I thought I was learning wisdom from the master while I was simply getting older and saner as most of us seem to do.

Subject: So true From: Mirror To: PatC Date Posted: Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 14:54:48 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I was reading Anth's journey today and I realized while reading it that the seeds for my openness to the cult were sown early in life, and not by Maha. My mom and dad tried with all their good intentions to teach me about the important things in life, like love and compassion. Unfortunately submissiveness and obedience without room for questioning where also part of the teaching. I always accepted this mindset as 'correct'. I accepted myself as someone who did not always know what was best. Looking back at it, this made me vulnerable to abuse, though I do not think that was my parents intention. They just wanted me to be a good girl! Sometimes I see myself automatically repeat these values to my children, and I don't want them to be victimized like I was. The struggle is to keep separating the valuable stuff from the bullshit time after time. The challenge is to face my own assumptions again and again, to keep questioning, to keep wondering. What I find to be true today, might be something else tomorrow. I know this for I was once a faithful premie, a 100% believer, and all that changed... Oh and I introduced my mom too long ago. Thank heavens she knew better. Nowadays I too enjoy the teachings of my ordinary daily life much more than I ever enjoyed knowledge. Mirror

Subject: Real people or Harvey the Rabbit? From: Jim To: All Date Posted: Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 19:37:17 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: What brought me to Knowledge Magdeline from Eureka in California looks back on 21 years with Knowledge I realised today that on July 20, 2002, I will have had Knowledge for twenty one years. Sometimes it has been challenging for me to practise and be commited to Maharaji and Knowledge as I am a people pleaser. Yes, what a dilemna! Real people or your imaginary friend 'within inside'. The ones close to me including my family have never had an understanding of why this means so much to me. I am easily swayed by people's perceptions and tend to have low self worth if I am not as successful as them. Success? What kind of success might be available to someone like this? I'm sorry, don't mean to be mean, but really, this poor woman has hamstrung herself entirely with this imaginary friend stuff. But when I go inside or listen to Maharaji I feel completely loved and accepted in a way that I have never felt like from anyone else in my 48 years on this planet. I need to learn that this could be enough for me and let go of my attachments to people who only stress me out, as I feel that many have a fear of aging or a fear of being alone. My father lived alone for many years so I could also say it's a genetic thing.(There I go again having to explain my choices to others when it's not necessary.) Yes, Madelaine, it's probably a genetic thing. Most humans have it unfortunately. We're social by nature, girl. Too bad your cult programming's left you feeling obliged to fight it. I also know that truly, I am not alone and I have trust in myself that this Life within has always been there and always will be. That's for sure ... right up until the moment you die you will always be alive. Good one.

Subject: Who's Harvey the Rabbit? From: Tonette To: Jim Date Posted: Tues, Feb 26, 2002 at 09:44:48 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The most sad and most very telling portion of her post was this to me: 'But when I go inside or listen to Maharaji I feel completely loved and accepted in a way that I have never felt like from anyone else in my 48 years on this planet. I need to learn that this could be enough for me and let go of my attachments to people who only stress me out,' She needs a life and sounds truly very lonely. Her practice of the 'truth' that Maharaji vomits has only alienated her from the human race. With statements like the one above, one has to wonder what level of self autism she has been able to achieve. I read the 'conceptual reality' below in Mirror's post, I would have to call Madeline's reality 'alienization reality.' She has the inability to relate to people, the inability to form, maintain, and enjoy relationships. Her cult speak by using words such as 'attachments' is almost like carbon dating. Yes, she has been in a long time alright. But what really is the most sad is her referral to her '48 years on the planet,' God, she sounds like it's a count down to her death. The planet, can hardly wait to leave it. And guess what, life will find a way, will always exist in one form or the other, but you, dear Madeline, will not always be in it. I wonder what she is really like? Would love to spend a day as a fly on her wall. Then again, maybe not. Cults suck and life for those in them is actually no life at all. I am pensive and saddened by the expression of these premies. Tonette

Subject: Who's Harvey the Rabbit????? From: Jim To: Tonette Date Posted: Tues, Feb 26, 2002 at 12:03:07 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: A classic Jimmy Stewart movie about an imaginary friend. Here, from the Internet Movie Database: iddle aged drunk has been driving his sister and niece wild by introducing everyone he meets to his pal Harvey. Harvey is a big white rabbit, six feet three and a half inches tall, which only Elwood (and occasionally his sister when she's feeling odd) can see. The sister, Veta Louise Simmons, tries to have Elwood committed to Chumleys Rest sanatorium, but they let Elwood out and lock her up. After sorting out the mistake, Dr Chumley goes after Elwood himself. Harvey us.imdb.com/Title?0042546

Subject: Actually, he's a Pooka (nt) From: WMary To: Jim Date Posted: Tues, Feb 26, 2002 at 13:47:38 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: nt

Subject: Harvey the Rabbit ??????????? From: cq To: Jim Date Posted: Tues, Feb 26, 2002 at 12:39:44 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Elwood P Dowd (Jimmy Stewart's character) in the movie has this priceless line: 'Well, I've wrestled with reality for 35 years, doctor, and I'm happy to state I finally won out over it'. www.dur.ac.uk/c.q.giles/harvey.jpg

Subject: PS That was a rabbit. THIS is a hare From: cq To: cq Date Posted: Tues, Feb 26, 2002 at 12:43:26 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: big, innit? 192.41.13.240/artchive/d/durer/hare.jpg

Subject: Re: Real people or Harvey the Rabbit? From: Suedoula To: Jim Date Posted: Tues, Feb 26, 2002 at 09:38:37 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jim, right up until the moment you die you will always be alive This is great tee shirt material -- or better yet, a mug to use when your EIYDHIWNDY one (or whatever that encrypted message reads) is in the dishwasher. How profound! Warmly, Susan

Subject: These musings are disturbing From: Deborah To: Jim Date Posted: Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 21:52:31 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It is really sad to see that premies are still battling these mind-fucks for over 30 years. The premies blame it in on the staganation and refusal to accept Maha's revisions. But I disagree. This is a product of Maha's success.

Subject: Re: These musings are disturbing From: Cynthia To: Deborah Date Posted: Tues, Feb 26, 2002 at 11:33:24 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Goober has succeeded in keeping some premies under his control. He's got them so hooked in it that it is sad to read those musings. Odd word, musings, in this context. For the long-term premie 'Even In Your Darkest Hour I Will Not Abandon You' (too many caps) is a powerful mindfuck. It assuages the fear of leaving by providing a safety net. They print it on yer coffee mugs. T-Shirts. They've got yer swans, yer pens, yer original art, yer videos, and yer participation. It's being on a Merry-Go-Round that never stops.

Subject: New Journey and White Pages Entries From: JHB To: All Date Posted: Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 15:04:03 (EST) Email Address: jhb@ex-premie.org Message: Victor (formerly known as Bob) Joseph has written his short but sweet journey, and he, as well as Mike Finch, Melissa Magee, and Janet Meldrum have submitted new White Pages entries. Joy Jaber has updated her entry including her email address. There are currently 159 White pages entries, and 84 journeys. John.

Subject: So make me feel guilty, Victor From: PatC To: JHB Date Posted: Tues, Feb 26, 2002 at 04:25:36 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You haven't even posted on the forum (except by way of giving me permission to post your email) and you've already written your Journey and I've been here forever and still haven't written mine. ;) Well, that was too much of a teaser. I for one am really looking forward to hearing a whole lot more from you and not only by email. I hope you'll find some time to post something on the forum. Don't worry I'll keep the pitbulls at bay. Actually they're all really chihuahuas and poodles. :)

Subject: Re: So make me feel guilty, Victor From: Victor (Bob) To: PatC Date Posted: Tues, Feb 26, 2002 at 11:25:28 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Okay already. I'll post. Re. your history of religion, Patrick - I get dizzy when I consider the millions of ways people have created to get themselves a bunch of rules called religions which everybody follows in different ways at different times in different places. Jeeze, gimme a break. I'm just coming out of 28 years of a religion which I never even KNEW was a religion and I'd have stared at you with my peaceful goo goo eyes if you told it was just that - and I'd have so much compassion for you for not understanding the essence of Knowledge etc. Personally, I am taking a break from religion and meditation and navel gazing, if only to prove that the world doesn't stop spinning and lighting doesn't strike just because one simple little soul like me has a sincere desire to grow without any trappings for a bit, or maybe never again. Who is watching? Who is judging? I'm the one I have to live with - and I'm having a terrific time shaking the blues away, not worrying about my spiritual life any more, like I used to, until I was stressed out over getting peace. Reminds me of that song from 'South Pacific' when Mary Martin sings, 'I'm Gonna Wash That Man Right Outa My Hair.' That's what I'm now doing - threw out all my sacred photos of M a few days ago - and a stack of letters I'd written to him, usually the literary equivalent of crying out from a horizontal position on the floor, banging my fists while sobbing uncontrollably, nothing but a human worm begging for forgiveness or help or inspiration. Something like poetic and oddly satisfying self-flagellation. Yikes - how my tastes in emotional release have changed! I couldn't stomach reading those letters ever again - I'll even read old bank statements before throwing them out. But I didn't want to re-live those daze. Obviously it gets easier every day washing the old away. So finally, I'm staying clear of religions and practices and systems for now - I need an extended vacation. I want to smell the roses again, or look at the blue sky, just as a simple human being in a body with some blessings, without constantly owing anything to some creator or claimant to the throne through a repayment in the form of some sanctioned practice. If God or that Whatever Power is as great as all the scriptures and teachers proclaim - then she gonna love me, babee, as I be - a shlump at his desk in a law firm on a Tuesday in February in New York, click clacking, gazing out on Central Park - happy as a hog in swill to be alive and well and - - happy Patrick? - - posting! Patrick wants a Post - Here ya go

Subject: Here already! From: Francesca :~) To: Victor (Bob) Date Posted: Tues, Feb 26, 2002 at 15:26:41 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Glad to see you here! What a long strange trip it's been. But I suppose you've already thrown out the T-shirt?? [The one that says 'EIYDHIWIYLIAH'?? (Even In Your Darkest Hour I Will Ignore You Like I Always Have.) That's pronounced I-D-WILLYA! I-D, I-D Ho!] Jai Guru Dev Bubalichka! Your gory fills the hurled! Love, Francesca :~)

Subject: Isn't great to welcome old pals? From: PatC To: Francesca :~) Date Posted: Tues, Feb 26, 2002 at 15:55:41 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: That's one good thing about posting under one's real name. Old friends recognise you and the next thing you know here they are.

Subject: Welcome Victor! From: Cynthia To: Victor (Bob) Date Posted: Tues, Feb 26, 2002 at 13:50:51 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hello Victor, That was a fabulous post. I hope you continue, you have a sense of humor I can get:) Cynthia J. Gracie the one in the corner with a dunce hat on.... Vermont, USA

Subject: Victor is a dear friend, Cynthia From: PatC To: Cynthia Date Posted: Tues, Feb 26, 2002 at 14:10:27 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: From way back when we still had hair and waistlines.

Subject: Gonna Wash That Man Right Outa My Hair From: PatC To: Victor (Bob) Date Posted: Tues, Feb 26, 2002 at 13:47:44 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: .....and send him on his way. Thank god you showed up, Victor. At last one other person who likes real music the way it oughta be. Yep, me too - I need a loooong break from religion, spirituality and even god. Just who does she think she be? Thanks for your wonderful post. Lot's of love to you and I hope to see you again after all these years.

Subject: How high are you? From: Will To: Victor (Bob) Date Posted: Tues, Feb 26, 2002 at 13:37:41 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Physically, that is. What floor are you on? I'm jealous of your view.

Subject: Re: How high are you? From: Victor (Bob) To: Will Date Posted: Tues, Feb 26, 2002 at 14:46:10 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 30th floor in the GM (Trump) Building. Wasn't it Marlo Thomas in 'That Girl' who spread out her hands in glee to be a young pretty New York working girl, in front of this big tall white building jutting into the sky? Anyway, I'm above FAO Schwartz and the CBS Morning Show studios (Bryant Gumbel I think), across the street from the Plaza Hotel and Bergdorf's Men's Store (where I was told by a friend who works there the suits now sell for $3,000 and nobody's buying). The best part is walking up Fifth Avenue during my lunch hour when I want to get away from the crowds. When I used to meditate or enjoy indulging in guilt and groveling, I would sometimes sit in Temple Emanu El in the dark trying to remember that holy name which I had rarely known in the first place. (Isn't it fun having fun with the stuff we took so seriously?) Emanul El is a kinda of Jewish cathedral for millionaires. At least it was quiet. I'd try to let go of my worldly silly preoccupations. Now I indulge them, in a kind of good-hearted post-premie-retro-irreverent-recovery mode. Minus those silly 12 steps. Just jump, kiddies! You'll land on your feet or even fly!

Subject: i envy you, babe. From: janet To: Victor (Bob) Date Posted: Thurs, Feb 28, 2002 at 01:43:57 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: new york city!! ooo, the food! ooo, the shoppping..? ooo, the music. oooh, the nightlife. I'm a noo yawker by birth, haven't been back since 1990. used to work the Alive Kitchen at 42nd st, across from the library, and next door to the grace bldg {smirk-joke, haha]-that sweeping, upwardly curved office tower? ya know, I was so miserable in new york city as a premie. so busy trying to be surrendered, trying not to 'get into the maya'. sheeeit. if i was back there today as a free soul, I think I could enjoy the place so much more. hey--FedEx me your lunch, wouldja? ironic. my journey to knowledge started at the edge of Central Park. 77th and central park west, to be exact. liy dah die.. {!}...liy dah die,die-die-dah-die, liy dah die,...{!}.. liy de die die die dah di... 'I am just a poor boy, tho my story's seldom told, I have squandered my resistance, on a pocket full of mumbles, such are promises... all lies in jest, still, a man hears what he wants to hear, and disregards the rest, hmmm,mm,mm,mm,m,m,m, mmm,mm,mm,mm... 'when I left my home and my family, I was no more than a boy, in the quiet of the subway station, runnin scared.. layin low, seeking out the poorer quarters, where the ragged people go, looking for the places only they would know.. .... 'asking only workman's wages, I go looking for a job, but i get no offers... just a come-on from the whores on seventh avenue... I do declare, there were times when I was so lonesome, I took some comfort there, mmm,mmm,mm,mmm,mm,m m,mm,m,mmm I once ended up spending a day stuck in the subway handing out leaflets for a gym as a day job, unab;e to go above ground because I only had one token to get home on, and if i went above ground, I would get stuck there for god knows how long and not be able to get back uptown to the premie apt i lived at. of course it was a hopeless task. I comforted myself by singing that song all day as I worked, knowing others before me had faced the same pointless attempts to survive the city at the bottom. I'm serious about your lunch. I wanna hot grinder with grilled onions, peppahs, a fresh baked roll cracking at the sides, an mayo and ketchup ta go. it's ok if gets cold onna way ovah. i can microwave it heah an heat it uppagain.

Subject: To quote the master From: Francesca :~) To: Victor (Bob) Date Posted: Tues, Feb 26, 2002 at 16:27:33 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'I'm high, I'm high enough.' Then some stuff about, but you need to get high, you need to realize this knowledge. From that Jacques Sandoz documentary 'Who is Guru Maharaji' that we had to watch an uncountable number of times as we dragged it out proudly as something that was shown at the Cannes Film Festival that year. I think it even won an award or an honorable mention. Yes folks, the whole civilized world was smokin' something. Blue Aqarius on Stax Records, and 'Who is Guru Maharaji' at the Cannes Film Festival. It all seemed, like, so real, man. LOLs and love too, Francesca

Subject: Re: To quote the master From: Victor (Bob) To: Francesca :~) Date Posted: Tues, Feb 26, 2002 at 17:31:14 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: And around that time, wasn't it the Merv Griffin show clip we had to watch over and over? And do you remember the Rennie Davis-run short-lived 'World Welfare Association' where we committed ourselves to volunteerism in prisons and hospitals, as a front, but under it all we were hunting for premies-in-the-making? I'd shlep to Rikers Island once a week to teach a 'Raj Yoga' (satsang) class to guys who were up for life for murder. Have to admit I'd never have seen prison life up close and personal were it not for the fact that I was a working Evangelist. And then once a week a group of us went to Roosevelt Island's Goldwater Hospital to 'entertain' completely paralyzed people lying in beds, assuring them that if they meditated nothing in the world could keep the bliss away. Then other nights, I would go to East Harlem to a hospital filled with sad souls suffering from drug-related injuries and such, and I'd wear a plastic clown wig (bald in the middle and then long chartreuse daglo hair running down the sides) as another premie pushed me on a platform with an unpright piano and a bench. I'd clunk out old show tunes and sing with premies who innocently believed that volunteerism would lead to conversion. Eventually (I think within a year) the entire program was dropped overnight, and we stopped visiting our 'friends' in those prisons and hospitals, mostly because they were never going to join us, so why stay in touch. It was an odd era - it felt like Maharaji was taking over the world. Well, in a way he was - MY world. Whew. Hi, Francesca.

Subject: Yow, I'd forgotten that stuff From: Francesca :~) To: Victor (Bob) Date Posted: Tues, Feb 26, 2002 at 17:58:17 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I remember 'mixing' with other religious groups when I was in the Apostles band in Atlanta in 1974 (ha ha) and singing my most innocuous premie songs in coffeehouses. Visualize whirrled peas. It helps stop the spinning! Francesca

Subject: NOTICE TO ALL PERSONS CALLED GERRY From: Sir Dave To: All Date Posted: Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 13:25:10 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Just a suggestion but why not put a link from the top of this forum to The ANYTHING GOES forum (linked above) and write a bit of blurb about it being a free-for-all and completely uncensored and unmoderated place etc. The ANYTHING GOES forum www.hotboards.com/plus/plus.mirage?who=anythinggoes

Subject: I see it! I see it! From: gerry To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 14:58:28 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: OK I'll do it soon. I'm a little busy right now. Your post looks funny now I've removed mine. Ah the perks of power...

Subject: I've retired from Lifes Great From: JHB To: All Date Posted: Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 08:40:27 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It's obvious that attempting to debate with Roupell, Cat, Lou, WH and the like is a waste of time. Their minds are closed. But I had this romantic notion that there were lurkers who could benefit from reading the rational ex-premie point of view. It then occurred to me that there probably aren't any lurkers as the site isn't advertised anywhere apart from on ex-premie sites. So although I'll look in from time to time, I've decided to leave them to their backwater. John.

Subject: Here's your gold ''EIYDHIWT'' watch From: PatC To: JHB Date Posted: Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 14:07:42 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: John, I had the same idea many moons ago but soon realized that the only link on the entire net to LG was from EPO or Maharaji Watch. I also began to suspect that Roupell made most of the posts under his multiple personalities and he already knows the score but has dug his heels in. The joint stinks. There really aren't sincere premies over there. Most are professional trolls and cult apologists.

Subject: OK, I give up From: JHB To: PatC Date Posted: Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 18:32:43 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: EIYDHIWT:- Even in your darkest hour I will t......? John.

Subject: EIYDHIWNAY?.... From: Cynthia To: JHB Date Posted: Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 19:52:56 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Even in your darkest hour I will Tryannize you? Take you for what you have? Try to keep you programmed? Train you in your propagation Duty To Me? The list goes on and on.

Subject: Re: EIYDHIWNAY?.... From: PatC To: Cynthia Date Posted: Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 23:39:27 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Sorry I forgot the last few words of that great peice of Maharajism and just left it dangling.

Subject: Cognitive Dissonance... From: Cynthia To: JHB Date Posted: Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 12:08:40 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi John, Congratulations. You probably alread know about cognitive dissonance, but I thought I'd provide this link which explains why programmed premies or any cult member cannot discuss the issues cogently. That's why I won't be conversing with any of the usual pests here anymore. Period. It only serves to feed the beast. The beast being the collective of characters who come here to disrupt and demean. I am posting this in full awareness that some of these ''beasts'' may stalk me around the this forum. Best, Cynthia Cognitive Dissonance www.propaganda101.com/cognitiv.htm

Subject: link re: Cognitive Dissonance... From: Cynthia....about the above To: Cynthia Date Posted: Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 17:57:17 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It's been brought to my attention that the above link which I provided is not exactly what it appears. It's right-wing, and I am very sorry for posting it without thoroughly reading the site. It doesn't reflect my POV at all. I should have read the entire site before posting it. My mistake. I read about Cognitivie Dissonance and trusted the site...my mistake, my apologies... Best, Cynthia J. Gracie Vermont, USA

Subject: Cynthia, have you read the rest of the site? From: JHB To: Cynthia Date Posted: Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 17:10:24 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: They believe that the media, particularly film and television, are practicing cult like mind control on the population to create a pro-liberal, anti-Christian Conservative popular opinion. They appear to be anti-gay too. Even the page you link to starts off appearing to be an objective discussion of cognitive dissonance but then claim that liberals are all suffering from it. An example they give is the 'contradictory' positions of being pro-choice and anti-capital punishment. John I must be a brainwashed liberal to dislike that site so much.

Subject: Yikes John! Sorry... From: Cynthia To: JHB Date Posted: Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 17:54:57 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: John, I admit, I didn't read the entire site. I guess I need another time out. I agree with you completely. I read Festinger's theory of--OOPS! a real typo, lol 'Cognacive'...I'll start again: I read Festinger's theory of Cognitive Dissonance; it was discussed here before. I guess I didn't pay enough attention to that discussion either. I thought it made a lot of sense. If it's a theory being used to unsavory purposes, well, I just have to do more research on this. I just did a quick surf through the various sites which discuss it, including anti-cult sites. I also went to a main ''Festinger'' site--all the links came back to the site I posted above. Hmmmp! Hmmmmp! Jeeze, I'm sorry. I need to pay attention to these types of sites because wording is used that could be confusing in some cases. Plus, they have a lot of pages with deceiving titles. My mistake, mea culpa... This is particularly embarrassing because I am a died-in the-wool liberal. Shit! EeeeeK! I'm going to make a reference to it above. Soreeeey, Cynthia, who needs to roll in the snow:)

Subject: Re: I've retired from Lifes Great From: Mirror To: JHB Date Posted: Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 09:27:09 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yes John, we cannot save anyone from themselves. Taking up the battle with our own concepts, is the challenge of a lifetime. We can only fight this battle ourselves. This is what the true story of Arjun in the Bhagawad Gita means to me. Not everyone is 'ready' for what lies beyond 'knowledge', and no one but myself alone could have decided that I was ready when I was. During the period of practicing knowledge, I falsly believed that I was addressing my concepts. What really happened though was a comfortable indulgence in a conceptual reality. The true surrender of concepts only started when I broke free. This, however, is so painful and difficult. Not exactly something you can talk someone into. The dreamy story that there is such thing as causeless happiness (quote M: 'happiness is not a consequence'), available to you through a certain formula (master+satelite+donation), sounds so much more alluring right? The realization that this so called causeless happiness needed some secret formula to become available to me, was the obvious contradiction that would finally force me to wake up after years of hushing up the discomfort of this contradiction. Happiness doesn't come in secret formulas. Happiness is freely accessible always, to everyone, without any technique, without any formula. All else is a conceptual strategy in an attempt to capture happiness, to imprison happiness, to patent happiness, to own happiness. Life doesn't work that way. Happiness is the next door neighbour to Suffering. We cannot have one without the other, though we try to avoid suffering through indulgence in our conceptual realities. I appreciate all your efforts at reasonable dialogue. If anything, you should value yourself for that and write for the sheer fun of the challenge. Your integrity is great, your openness contagious. Mirror

Subject: Apology offered for rude remarks From: Deborah To: Mirror Date Posted: Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 21:31:08 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Mirror, You've been here for two months, haven't you? And you've posted many good posts and many exes have responded to you. Than, all of a sudden, you make a point based on a so called 'premie myth' and suddenly you're chastized and slung derogatory insults. Furthermore, the leap to calling you an apologetic premie, is something that just baffles me. How that conclusion was derived from your post, is beyond me. I'm sorry you had your well intentioned post attacked and would like to apologize on behalf of everyone who posted here, it was simply rude and uncalled for. Any uncertainty about your post or message could have been handled tactfully. Believe me, it's not the tone of the forum at place here, it is the tone of the posters. cheers, deborah, who hopes you let this slide off your back, where it belongs

Subject: Re: Apology offered for rude remarks From: Mirror To: Deborah Date Posted: Tues, Feb 26, 2002 at 05:56:42 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi guys, Wow, thanks for all your concern! I know virtually nothing about Hinduism. I bet that you all know much more about it since you have collectively rejected whatever Hinduism is to you, so you must have found good reason to feel that strongly about it. I merely remembered the story of Arjun because Maha used to talk about it. Back then I thought I understood, because I understood it the way Maha wanted me to (eg as an encouragement to destroy my ability to think for myself). Only much later I realized what had happened, and I started to aim my 'arrows' at the very concept that had crippled me the most to begin with (that Maha was a realized master who's practice and instructions I needed in order to become realized myself). The undoing of this concept has been very important to me, because it was my ticket to freedom. A freedom and independence that I found was and is in no need of anyone's techniques or instructions other than the guidance of my own integrity. I finally learned to trust myself as a worthy and self sufficient being. This process however, in my life, has not led to a rejection of everything religious or spiritual, nor am I trying to preach any such thing to anyone as if it were some absolute truth (except perhaps that everyone is free to decide for themselves as long as basic human dignity is respected). Whatever Hinduism is, is fine with me. Just like any other religion or phylosophy for that matter, including nihilism, nondualism, humanism and atheism. The importance is that I find myself free to choose today. Totally free. I am no longer dependant on what Maha might think of me (or rather, on what I thought Maha would think of me, because I am certain he never waisted one single thought on me), or afraid that if I did it my way and not his, I would never become eligable for self-realization (whatever that was in my mind back then). Neither am I afraid now to be a bad ex-premie in the eyes of certain forum participants here, because I happen not to fit their ex-premie 101 model. I know now that I've got nothing to lose, because I do not allow anyone to ever rob me of my basic self respect and self confidence again. This much I have learned from my experience with M. As an ex-premie I am the last one to tell someone else what is right and what is wrong 'spiritually' or 'religiously', and I can only speak for myself, from my own point of view. If I come off as such I sincerely appologize, because this is not my intention. Everything I say is an 'as is' statement relative to me alone. I know too well that everything I say is only one side of a multifacetted truth, that can be looked at from many different angles. Perhaps unconditionally true for me, valid for me, but certainly something you are free to accept or reject, and therefore I wholeheartedly accept your rejection of certain things I say. The only rights and wrongs I respect and advocate are the moral ones as generally apply to our western cultures and etiquette, because I live in it. This morality and respect includes internet dialogue. (The lack of concern with such morality and human respect is one of my major aggrevances against M and his EV structure). If my words sound too 'new agish', too 'hindu' or too whatever for some, I appologize. I guess I do not have the necessary command of the english language to find a better vocabulary for what I am trying to say. I do however, have a very open ear, and I appreciate your comments and make a sincere effort to understand you. I take to heart what people tell me. I am no longer suffering from blind belief that I have found 'the way'. I dropped that attitude of spiritual arrogance when I became an ex-premie. Neither do I believe that you have though. Rather I allow myself to enjoy and learn from all wisdom and sillyness imparted on this forum, knowing full well that my own wisdom is at least silly. Thanks Deborah and PatC for your generous support. And yes I am a human that in real life goes by the name of Mira Baartmans Valentine, I live in the Netherlands, have an american husband and three daughters, was a premie from 1981-2000 (give or take a few months). I have used my internet alias for 3 years now, ever since my first internet buddy addressed me by that nickname (don't ask me why, long story). I hope you can live with that. Like I commented to John earlier, I admire people with a talent for open dialogue. In my view John and Brian are amongst the more eloquent ones. A little less of my admiration is bestowed on the proverbial elephant in the china closet, but then I also love elephants. Who am I to tell people that blindly believe in their concept of 'I am right and you are wrong' that they are 'wrong'? :p Mirror ps: oh and I promise promise promise that I will never use any dirty hindu words again. I swear.

Subject: Thanks for your thoughtful words... [nt] From: Cynthia To: Mirror Date Posted: Tues, Feb 26, 2002 at 18:36:37 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Beautiful post Mirror From: Deborah To: Mirror Date Posted: Tues, Feb 26, 2002 at 17:14:43 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Mirror, A couple of comments. neither am I afraid now to be a bad ex-premie in the eyes of certain forum participants here, because I happen not to fit their ex-premie 101 model. This is the piece-de-resistance. Very astute perception. You put the heart of my intentions into words. These words are music to my ears. I know now that I've got nothing to lose, because I do not allow anyone to ever rob me of my basic self respect and self confidence again. This much I have learned from my experience with M. Bravo! You got it. What I didn't agree with: I guess I do not have the necessary command of the english language to find a better vocabulary for what I am trying to say. Your post is brilliantly written, Mirror. You have very good command of the English language. On the other hand, inculcation, by its very nature, censors your outside stimulii. Much of what life has taught you was invalidated or rendered 'false' or 'useless' because it conflicted with the idealogy of Maharajism. What you may intuitively feel lacking, may be a cultivated repertoire of ideas and expressions that were subsequently repressed. There's a whole storage of ideas, opinions, and unique perspectives locked away in a file. Good news is, the file is unlocked. cheers, deborah, who is thrilled to see someone politely kick ass ;)

Subject: Brilliant, Mirror. Many thanks for saying that [nt] From: PatC To: Mirror Date Posted: Tues, Feb 26, 2002 at 13:52:41 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: To be fair, it wasn't just dirty hindu words From: Jim To: Mirror Date Posted: Tues, Feb 26, 2002 at 12:18:56 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Mirror, You did, though, use a lot of new age / spiritual jargon or cliches in your first posts here. Obviously, as you've demonstrated here, you're able to communicate excellently without them. That's just great because, when it comes right down to it, the trouble with that kind of the language is that it's rationally impenetrable. Nice to see you're trying. You deserve a lot of credit for that. Hope you don't find this patronizing.

Subject: Well said, Mirror! [nt] From: Francesca To: Mirror Date Posted: Tues, Feb 26, 2002 at 11:54:23 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: No need to apologise From: Sir Dave }( To: Deborah Date Posted: Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 22:12:26 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Read Joe's post and you'll see that there is a great distaste for the Hindu philosophy here. If people come here to preach that philosophy, as Mirror has done, they can expect to get short thrift. To expect less is naive.

Subject: Not the hinduism, the insults From: Deborah To: Sir Dave }( Date Posted: Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 22:50:53 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Mirror was attacked as if she was a deliberate troll. And you referred to her as just being a 'ghost', Sir Dave. How could we use the same word for a 'ghost'. My understanding of 'ghost' is one who is so fearful and insecure, that they have to reduce themselves to a non-existent entities in order to be an apologist, insult someone, or flame the forum. My understanding of a premie is, someone who is still worshipping Maha, and accepting his doctrine as sound, and his history as being abouve the law or divinely ordained. Mirror has a real name and has used it in her journey which was just posted in the white papers last week. She sent me an email weeks ago and told me her real name. How many definitions for a troll, a premie, or a ghost do we need to keep track of, Sir Dave. I also said in the post, that people could have used tact to address their concerns with her post. Therefore, an opportunity for people to express their disdain for hinduism would have had a chance to be addressed. Why does my opinion that the exes can be unnecessarily rude always bring out such volatile reactions from the exes? I've seen real trolls get more respect.

Subject: Well Deborah From: Sir Dave To: Deborah Date Posted: Tues, Feb 26, 2002 at 06:33:00 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I don't think I was excessively rude and I make no apology for showing extreme distaste for any preaching of Hinduism here. Joe wasn't rude at all and if you consider mine and Joe's posts to be somewhat beyond the pale, you've forgotten some of your own posts on these forums.

Subject: Re: Well Deborah From: Deborah To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Tues, Feb 26, 2002 at 16:24:35 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Sir Dave, I did not mention names or point at specific posts because the details were hardly my point. Thus, I don't give a shit about detailing other people 's post point-by-point. I am not even detailing your posts. My apology was to Mirror on behalf of the tone of the thread and over zealous reaction. She was treated and accused of being a 'ghost', apologist, amongst other insults. If your argument is about your sensitivity to Hinduism, why do you not acknowledge that you argued she was a good for nothing 'ghost' in more than post. Besides that, you oversaw the obvious, Sir Dave. My post was not a plea for censorship, it was a comment on excessive lack of courtesy. No more! Sure, you or anybody here can be as blatant as you want, use bold uppercaps in big sizes, and whatever. But if it turns off or away good people, before they are even given a chance, is it worth it? It's not Mirror's or anyone else's fault you and others are still sitting around licking Hindu wounds. I have no Hindu wounds to lick, myself, so I don't personally relate to this readily flared antagonism shared by you and other ex-premies. Maharaji and Knowledge are enough to agree on, the rest is just social or intellectual preference.

Subject: Time out you two for throwing sand! From: Playground Monitor To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Tues, Feb 26, 2002 at 09:59:36 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Deborah does have a valid point. Some of what I read to Mirror seemed just a tad harsh but........... from reading Mirror's replies, she is no worst for the wear. She doesn't feel flamed but honored for all the thoughtful interest forum posters gave to her. So, you two, careful with each other. Okay?

Subject: Throw YOU out for posting anonymously From: Jim To: Playground Monitor Date Posted: Tues, Feb 26, 2002 at 12:08:26 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: God I hate that! If you have something to say, say it without hiding. What if everyone broke the rules about using their name like you have? Are you special for some reason? Tell me about it.

Subject: No, not special, From: Tonette To: Jim Date Posted: Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 09:59:28 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I cannot tell a lie, I wrote that post. I thought, really, that most everyone would know it was me. Guess not. I'm sorry and was mistaken with what I thought that post would generate. My intentions were misquided but admirable. I just didn't want Sir Dave and Deborah to rip any deeper into each, well, their posts to each other weren't that bad but I truly thought that the dialogue between them was going to get really nasty. I explained a little bit more in post to Sir Dave, if you have the inclination to take a look at it. I have got to learn to mind my own business and I am sorry for the little trouble I caused. Sincerely, Tonette

Subject: Thanks for admission From: Deborah To: Tonette Date Posted: Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 23:05:13 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Tonette, Personally, I can't respond to posts that want to be taken seriously when people who post don't have accountability. I thought your post was fine, even humourous. Sometimes if a thread is fun everyone will use a psuedo to make the subject line funny. But those are special type of posts where everyone is just chiming in for fun. You already got the message and I think it was cool of you to come forward. cheers, deborah, who appreciated your concern nevertheless

Subject: Tonette! From: Jim To: Tonette Date Posted: Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 21:54:56 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The only thing you have to learn is to not do that! Everyone deserves to know who they're talking to, don't you think? That's the rule anyway.

Subject: No, I won't toe any line here From: Sir Dave }( To: Playground Monitor Date Posted: Tues, Feb 26, 2002 at 11:48:24 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: or take orders from anyone. I'd be hypocritical if I didn't speak my mind whenever I posted here. Of course, if my posts aren't welcome, you can always block me. Like you've blocked other free thinking and speaking people recently.

Subject: Sir Dave, an apology and a question From: Tonette To: Sir Dave }( Date Posted: Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 09:48:43 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: First, the apology. I was the one who posted as playground monitor. I did not mean to upset the apple cart here but I was definately dishonest by not using my real name. Actually, at the time I wrote that post, I thought that the post was perhaps humorous, cute and would make the dialogue between you and Deborah a little more gentle. That's all. I just didn't want to see a real row transpire here between two people I admire, you and Deborah. I didn't want either of you two to hit each other below the belt in the heat of the moment. I just wanted some pause. Good intentions often produce damaged results, I'm sorry. I didn't say in the original post that you were the sole one who I thought was a 'tad harsh' and frankly, short of calling someone names and belittling the poster, all is fair here. Maybe I'm the true hypocrite here. I can remember many a post I've written that was, in actuality, a flame. Gee, do you think that perhaps I'm not quite perfect? Good, you are in touch with reality. The question if you're still talking to me, are you referring to Quiet in your post to Gerry about banning 'free thinking and speaking people?' Frankly I'm glad Quiet is gone. I read her/his posts and there was no substance to the posts but lots and lots of them. Quiet never gave me the courtesy of an answer to any of the few, direct and simple questions I posted to him/her. Quiet has posted lots replies in order to fill up forum space with puesdo spam. Couldn't quite put your finger on it, call Quiet's posts spam that is, but spam it was. Intentional. Not belligerant but accompolishing the mission never-the-less, fill forum space with nonsense, make us look like fools to those that may look here, and never look directly at what is being said. Cause dissention, try and milk information. That was the general style. And hasn't Quiet been the recent star on 'anything goes?' Anyway, take care. Sincerely, Tonette

Subject: Dave that wasn't me From: gerry To: Sir Dave }( Date Posted: Tues, Feb 26, 2002 at 12:00:35 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I haven't read the thread but I thought you might be using big letters again. Your posts are always welcome Dave, and I'm glad you are guarding our liberties with the same tenacity and dedication you gave to the cheese. Right admirable of you, old chap...

Subject: Well then, Gerry From: Sir Dave (Secret Agent) To: gerry Date Posted: Tues, Feb 26, 2002 at 15:57:58 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It's half a pound of mature cheddar to you, (low fat, of course).

Subject: Well said, Deborah. Thanks. [nt] From: PatC To: Deborah Date Posted: Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 23:47:02 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Well said, Deborah. Thanks. [nt] From: Francesca To: PatC Date Posted: Tues, Feb 26, 2002 at 01:33:18 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Beyond of all beyonds From: Sir Dave }( To: Mirror Date Posted: Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 14:36:56 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Ha ha ha - that's a good one! ''Beyond knowledge''. Ha ha ha, that'll do their heads in. No, we're not ready for it. I think I'll stick to trying to survive and keep my children fed and clothed. Does anyone know what you're talking about? I doubt it.

Subject: Re: Beyond of all beyonds From: reflection To: Sir Dave }( Date Posted: Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 15:07:52 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: yes, i know.

Subject: No you don't From: Sir Dave To: reflection Date Posted: Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 15:15:55 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You're just a ghost, like Mirror. Not a real person on this forum at all. Nothing about who you are, your life, your hardships and trials, pleasures and pain, your successes and achievements and loves and hates. Are you like Mirror and all theory and hogwash? Are you even on this planet?

Subject: Dave, Mirror is not a ghost From: PatC To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 17:47:55 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Mirror is the handle that Mira Bartmans uses on the net. She is an expremie and a gentlewoman.

Subject: Yes but the philosophy is From: Sir Dave To: PatC Date Posted: Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 22:00:22 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: and the Hindu philosophy is worse than useless. Christ, I should know, I practiced it diligently for eleven years and it is worse than useless - it is dangerous and completely impossible to uphold. The reason being that it's based upon theory which is not true and quite impossible to practise. I consider Hindu philosophy to be pure poison. Nothing less.

Subject: Re: No you don't From: reflection To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 15:44:06 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: im very much in this planet. and i have a long list of hardships, trials, pleasures and pains. it hasnt been easy . and i dont like theories. i only believe in myself, and whatever i experience.

Subject: What the hell is a 'conceptual reality'? [nt] From: Tony Tundra To: Mirror Date Posted: Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 13:46:04 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: What the hell is a 'conceptual reality'? From: Mirror To: Tony Tundra Date Posted: Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 14:44:52 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: A reality you have convinced yourself of is the truth, despite evidence to the contrary. Example: 'my husband doesn't cheat' (with another woman's lipstick on his shirt). M's world is a good example of living in such a mental construct, in my view. Mirror

Subject: I see... From: Tony Tundra To: Mirror Date Posted: Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 15:23:35 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: So, in other words, a conceptual reality can be a form of denial. Thanks, Mirror. TT :o

Subject: Denial? It's pure fantasy! From: cq To: Tony Tundra Date Posted: Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 14:04:00 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: fantasy and delusion, if Mirror's definition is correct. Sounds very Orwellian to me: Ministry of Peace (i.e. War) Ministry of Truth (i.e. 'spin' - or was that just the Official Records Dept? - same difference?) Ministry of ... what was it? ... 'Conceptual Reality'?

Subject: LOL, Guess I'll try the Ministry of Lies (nt) From: Crispy To: cq Date Posted: Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 15:37:30 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Circular nonsense. From: Joe To: Mirror Date Posted: Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 13:11:47 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Taking up the battle with our own concepts, is the challenge of a lifetime. Who told you that? And what is a 'concept?' Why does one need to 'battle' them? And why isn't the above statement just another big 'concept' that you have to battle? You guys, and your incoherent 'master' just talk in circles and think it's profound. That's how you get stuck in a cult. More bullshit: Life doesn't work that way. Happiness is the next door neighbour to Suffering. We cannot have one without the other, though we try to avoid suffering through indulgence in our conceptual realities. Yes, do tell us all how "life works," oh arrogant wise one. And I completely reject this puritanical, Hindu, destructive idea about the wheel of pleasure and pain. What a load of crap. Does your "master" still preach that Hindu drivel?

Subject: Joe, Mirror is an expremie From: PatC To: Joe Date Posted: Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 14:13:30 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: As I've said before, eventhough I may not agree with certain spiritual exes such as Deputy Dog and Steve Mueller, I don't believe in re-educating people about the evils of New Ageism. It makes me happy enough to know that they are no longer enslaved to a fraudulent Hindu businessman. The rest they will work out for themselves.

Subject: sometimes u gotta use a leash From: Pullaver To: PatC Date Posted: Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 22:10:46 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: As I've said before, even though I may not agree with certain spiritual exes such as Deputy Dog and Steve Mueller, I don't believe in re-educating people about the evils of New Ageism. It makes me happy enough to know that they are no longer enslaved to a fraudulent Hindu businessman. The rest they will work out for themselves. --- --- --- --- - Well, in Dog's case it is not clear whether he is truly an ex or indeed ever a 'premie', at least in a conventional sense. As recently as a month ago he informed me that he still goes to local video/satellite events and derives inspiration from Maharaji's shpiel. In other words, all the information shared/reported about Maharaji here and on EPO means as much to him today as Maharaji's actual instructions to his followers twenty-five years ago. We are talking serious disconnect here. That's why I've been so hot on his tail. It is totally disingenuous (not to mention annoying) of him to come here and criticize the occasional spleen venting and then spout all his Landmark Forum crapola in a deluded sense that he is 'helping'. And it is indeed crapola in the sense that he's been spouting this stuff for ages without any noticeable corresponding qualitative improvement in his own life. I don't fool myself by thinking I'm re-educating him but to let him continue his charade unchallenged is a disservice to all of us, Dog included.

Subject: No, I'm a spiritual ex, finally [nt] From: Deputy Dog =( To: Pullaver Date Posted: Tues, Feb 26, 2002 at 15:46:02 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Welcome home, Dog From: Marianne To: Deputy Dog =( Date Posted: Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 11:29:55 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jeez Dog, what a haul it's been. I know it's been tough for you. Write your Journey for us when you feel up to it. Marianne

Subject: ? From: ? To: Deputy Dog Date Posted: Tues, Feb 26, 2002 at 17:34:44 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Unless I'm mistaken From: Pullaver To: ? Date Posted: Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 12:17:15 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The Kilkenny's are on me. I just found out that ChrisP lives here in town, the three of us could get together and get drunk watching the Atlanta Training Video. I know it's not the Canadian hockey team thrashing the Americans at the Olympics but apparently there's some 30 year veterans getting beat up by the coach.

Subject: THat's hilarious Pullaver From: Deborah To: Pullaver Date Posted: Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 17:29:51 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I love your allagory to the Hockey game. 30 players getting beat up by their coach, shit you're sense of humour is totally Canadian. So, I didn't see the big game on Sunday, but it was no question who won. I live smack downtown and heard horns blowing all afternoon. Up and down Douglas and Government the cars paraded. The tourists were also beside themselves. So ChrisP lives in the same town as you? Cool! And now Dog? I thought he was American for some reason. Drop me an email soon, maybe we could plan a Canadian Latvian. cheers, deborah

Subject: Hi Pullaver & Deputy From: Crispy To: Pullaver Date Posted: Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 13:07:52 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Pullaver, and Deputy Field Marshall as well! Now that we've all 'connected' B) , yes I'd like that - our own Canadian answer to Latvian Nights. We could start our own video watching sect - only this time we're allowed to shout out whatever comes into our pretty little minds! ()) You know who else we could invite..... Cheers, 'Counsellor' Chris (joke between Dep & me) ;)

Subject: Come out to the coast, ... From: Deborah To: Crispy Date Posted: Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 17:37:17 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ... we'll get together, have a few laughs }) }) }) cheers, deborah

Subject: Re: Come out to the coast, ... From: Crispy To: Deborah Date Posted: Thurs, Feb 28, 2002 at 12:28:34 (EST) Email Address: jame916@aol.com Message: Hey there, Deborah! That sounds nice. I sure miss beautiful B.C. I used to live in Vancouver back in the '80s, so I'm due for another visit to the Pacific again. We may know a few of the same folks in Victoria, Vancouver Island, VanCity area. I've added my email address - so send me a message sometime. Cheers, ChrisP

Subject: Re: Come out to the coast, ... From: Deborah To: Crispy Date Posted: Thurs, Feb 28, 2002 at 15:11:39 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I sent you an email. I also changed the message slightly above. Love the edit feature. I messed up one of my favorite Die Hard Lines. Funny, I thought this morning how I said it wrong and wanted to come edit it. Talk about anal, eh? cheers, deborah

Subject: But Mirror IS an ex and has made that known.... From: PatC To: Pullaver Date Posted: Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 23:45:04 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ...on her website and she also has revealed exactly who she is so Dave is wrong to call her a ghost. A person's religion is none of my business including Dog's but I am sorry to hear that he still wants eat his cake and keep it too. I thought he had gotten rid of the massa's leash.

Subject: Sorry, I didn't read the entire thread (nt) From: Pullaver To: PatC Date Posted: Tues, Feb 26, 2002 at 08:26:02 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: Circular nonsense. From: Mirror To: Joe Date Posted: Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 14:08:10 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Err... I'm not sure I'm following you? I appreciate your efforts to speak for yourself. I can only do the same. As far as this 'master' you refer to is concerned, I don't have one. I wonder what gave you that idea? Right now the only master I have is this conversation, in terms of what I learn from it. Next will probably be an argument with my husband, who is annoyed that I spend time at my computer instead of on the couch. I guess I'm gonna curl up there for now, until your 'concept' that I respond to some kind of 'master' has been shot down by your poisonous arrows. Mirror

Subject: Sorry, you sound like a premie From: Joe To: Mirror Date Posted: Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 15:31:42 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: So I assumed you are one, but apparently you are not. But, nonetheless, it is largely Hindu/Maharajism ideology you espoused, which I rejected along with him.

Subject: Don't you feel a tad contradictory? From: Jim To: Mirror Date Posted: Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 12:52:49 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Mirror, I agree with everything you say except for your bizarre effort to tie this common sense wisdom -- which, let's face it, is really all it is -- to something as irrelevant and inscrutable as an ancient hindu religious allegory. First, do you, who apparently prides yourself on jettisoning conceptual shells of reality, really know what, if anything, really happened between Krishna and Arjuna? Do you really even know if two such people existed? Do you really know what the hell any of that bizarre story was meant to explain if anything? Who wrote it? What gave them the authority to try to explain the cosmic workings of the universe? Do you know ANY of this? No, of course you don't. So what kind of an authority is that for you? Why bother?

Subject: Re: Don't you feel a tad contradictory? From: Mirror To: Jim Date Posted: Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 14:14:36 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Why would I care who existed in, wrote about, told, played or read the story I referred to? That was not the point I tried to make. I am surprised to see you still reading my posts, since we agreed earlier that you apparently do not care for my use of language. I guess M and his (ab)use of hindu traditions made you throw out the baby with the bathwater. Your choice. Not mine. Mirror (traditional human)

Subject: Re: Don't you feel a tad contradictory? From: Jim To: Mirror Date Posted: Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 18:11:38 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Why would I care who existed in, wrote about, told, played or read the story I referred to? That was not the point I tried to make. Are you serious? Why wouldn't you care? Why invoke some authority which you don't believe in? If someone quotes a scripture for some proposition, they're supposedly finding some wisdom there. But, really, I took another look at what you wrote and have to say, Mirror, baby, wake up! Here's what you wrote: Not everyone is 'ready' for what lies beyond 'knowledge', and no one but myself alone could have decided that I was ready when I was. -- as much a tidy, neat, spiritual concept if I ever saw one. Who says there's something 'beyond' Knowledge? What does that mean anyway? Moreover, whoever said that no one but you could determine when you were ready for that whatever-it-is? To people who talk that way all the time it might not sound like much but when you're out of new age / spiritual waters for any length of time, that kind of talk stands out as a complete, cookie-cuttered concept. During the period of practicing knowledge, I falsely believed that I was addressing my concepts. What really happened though was a comfortable indulgence in a conceptual reality. Tell me about it. I am surprised to see you still reading my posts, since we agreed earlier that you apparently do not care for my use of language. I guess M and his (ause of hindu traditions made you throw out the baby with the bathwater. Your choice. Not mine. Mirror (traditional human) Naw, I read most everything. Lucky you, huh? :) Mirror, I'm not trying to give you a hard time. But, as they say in the Upanishads, we're just talking.

Subject: As they say in the Upanishads From: PatC To: Jim Date Posted: Tues, Feb 26, 2002 at 03:57:59 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Ever since Steve Mueller's astrology ran into your anti-New Ageism, I've been wanting to argue with you about the need for challenging new expremies' religions since it scares some of them off before they've got their feet wet.....but then you go and spoil it all by saying something stupid like....and I realize why it is such an interesting hobby for you. And of course it helps that you are taking aim at one of my favorite punching bags. One day I'll find a more than thin-blooded and half-hearted excuse to argue with you about your hobby. If you were attacking something that I held dear I would definitely point out that it is really is none of your business because I could quite easily attack your dear rock-n-roll as being more harmful than any amount of New Age pap. (Oh, yes, I could - it's been proven by several studies that rock kills house-plants.) You may think that your dalliance in the wigga culture is harmless but I happen to think that it as dangerous as the New Age warm fuzzies and knee-jerk bleeding heart socialism which are the hallmarks of the half-educated second generation hogfuckers from Minnesota or Yorkshire. Now, if I were a conspiracy theorist or Spiro Agnew, I would tell you that rock is a communist plot to destroy western civilization. And I'm only half joking. I hardly agree with anything that exes believe in and even when I agree with most everything that an ex stands for I will find at least one thing that we disagree upon, like rock-n-roll. Politically I'm in a real minority. Sexually - well the minority is slightly larger but still a minority. Religiously I don't fit in anywhere. So if I criticized everything about exes that I disagreed with, I'd be booed off the forum. It is enough to me that we all agree on one thing. Maharajism is fake and Rawat is a fraud. Anyway, this is only a half-hearted argument because I happen to agree with your anti-New Ageism and enjoy your refutations because they give me ammunition in my battle against it here in the bastion of feelgood religion and politics. Also you seem only to go after preachiness and no one likes being preached to. Maybe one day we will all be grateful to you but just don't get me started on rock-n-roll.

Subject: You want to argue about music?? OT From: Jim To: PatC Date Posted: Tues, Feb 26, 2002 at 12:12:33 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Pat, I've never thought twice about your standing joke about 'rock-and-roll' but perhaps it's time for you to define exactly what that is to you. I don't use that term myself except to talk about Jerry Lee Lewis, early Elvis and Sha Na Na (remember them?). If your argument's as accurate as your terminology you're not going to get out of the gate on this one, Pat. Guranteed.

Subject: Okay, I'll sharpen my arrows From: PatC To: Jim Date Posted: Tues, Feb 26, 2002 at 14:06:17 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ......and we'll have a go at it in Chit Chatroom. First I will hone my definition of rock-n-roll. I realize that I use it much more broadly than it's correct definition and in fact I like Chuck Berry and other early rock. I guess I detest heavy metal, punk, rockabilly and garage rock and anything that is not polyphonically complex or is too loud, early Beatles, Rolling Stones. Oh boy, I need to do some work. But you're on although I'm reluctant to criticize anyone's tastes (de gustibus etc) because I'm sure we would not like each others' definition of great sex either.

Subject: about R&R because From: Mirror * Pat, I dont care what you say To: PatC Date Posted: Tues, Feb 26, 2002 at 06:56:34 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Steve Vai is the best guitarist in the world anyway... ;) Mirror (a fan)

Subject: It's a pleasure to see you stick up for yourself [nt] From: PatC To: Mirror * Pat, I dont care what you say Date Posted: Tues, Feb 26, 2002 at 14:08:44 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: So what that we love Maharaji From: Proud Premie Ji To: All Date Posted: Sun, Feb 24, 2002 at 21:42:26 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Anybody can love Maharaji. New people can learn to love him. The master teaches about the bond between the student and the teacher; it's perfectly normal to love Maharaji, even if from afar, even if I will never met him. He gave me the knowledge of all knowledges, he is my friend, well, so I think he is. I'm appalled to read what you think about my master. I'm a old premie. I received K in the 70s. To me Maharaji is much more than just a meditation teacher, as he may be fpr the new premies. To me Maharaji is everything. He is the Lord. The devotion I feel for him cannot be described, and yes, we old premies are fortunate to see him that way. Too provocative? Yes. I would kiss his feet anytime. I'm not worthy. Now, you say here that all we premie feel in Maharaji's world we were programmed to feel it. In what way? I'm so happy to be a premie of the Lord of The Universe!!!

Subject: We know, we know, we were in those shoes. From: Sulla To: Proud Premie Ji Date Posted: Tues, Feb 26, 2002 at 15:54:45 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Anybody can love and learn to love M., exactly the same way as others learned to love Swami Muktananda and other con Gurus and leaders. Keep reading and don't be a fool, as we all were, anymore. The web page about Muktananda, that Dave Punshon posted below, is something you must read. A lot of similarities. http://rigel.cyberpass.net/truth/ I took this quotes from there: For your consideration... 'Truth, like art, is in the eye of the beholder.' Midnight in the Garden of Good and Evil 'Truth is stronger than lies and love is stronger than fear!' Steven A. Hassan 'The most dangerous lie is that which most closely resembles the truth.' Jan Groenveld 'When I tell any truth it is not for the sake of convincing those who do not know it, but for the sake of defending those who do.' William Blake'All Lies Lead to the Truth' The X Files 'Believing oneself to be perfect is often the sign of a delusional mind.' Data to the Borg Queen, Star Trek: First Contact Good luck and listen to that little voice inside of you.

Subject: Are you guys sure this is not a joke? From: Tonette To: Proud Premie Ji Date Posted: Tues, Feb 26, 2002 at 10:03:01 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Certainly appears that way to me. This post is so far out, it could of been written by a Pauline Premie wanna be or Ted Farkel urbanized. Warmly, Tonetter

Subject: WHAT ABOUT BLISS? From: Proud To: Proud Premie Ji Date Posted: Tues, Feb 26, 2002 at 00:05:04 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Isn't better to live our days smiling than empty? Because the only thing that fulfills my heaRT IS mAHARAJI'S BLISS. NOTHING compares. How is it that it works? Power of suggestion then?

Subject: neva hadit, neva wil From: janet To: Proud Date Posted: Thurs, Feb 28, 2002 at 02:18:50 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: you want the frank truth? not once in 27 years did i ever reach 'bliss'. and if i did, I couldnt hold it, so it would just be another thing i had and lost. you think life is empty? you afraid to try it without your artificial shield? life isnt empty. faking something, now that's empty. mj himself doesnt live in bliss. thats why he smokes marlboros. that's why he drinks cognac every damned day. that's why he needs money and more money and more money-- to try and fill the emptiness inside. oh--and that's why he's fat, too. nobody in bliss could rip into people who loved him with the kind of rageaholism prem has. he's faking it. and you're lying to yourself in order to keep on faking it. and life isn't empty.

Subject: Re: WHAT ABOUT BLISS? From: Dermot To: Proud Date Posted: Tues, Feb 26, 2002 at 00:21:39 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Is it permanent or transient? Are you sure it is 'Maharajis' bliss? Isn't it YOURS? And you do realise Sai babites, mormons,this, that and the others offer the same argument? Doesn't that make you think it's a subjective experience not brought on by the OBJECT of devotion but by each individuals response to their own makebelieve 'god', 'religion' or whatever or whoever they pour forth their devotion and dedication to? Do you think some brain chemicals may be involved in all this, somehow or other.....and not MAHARAJI? :) PS ......what's this "empty" stuff? People without Maharaji are empty, you mean? ...

Subject: Re: So what that the Cult is leaving you From: Gail To: Proud Premie Ji Date Posted: Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 15:06:31 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You are on a sinking ship in the middle of the ocean of Maharaji's maya, my dear. As you have not clued in yet, let me help you. There is hardly anyone left. The broadcasts have been reduced in numbers. When do you get to see the Lard in person again? People are seeing the light. Why not you. It is more gracious for you to leave the cult than to have the cult leave you, n'est pas? All the best!

Subject: Re: So what that we love Maharaji From: Gail To: Proud Premie Ji Date Posted: Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 15:00:54 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Your biggest problem, PPJ, is that you still believe he is the Lord. If he is, then everyone should bow down and pay homage. However, there is mounting evidence to prove he is not! I felt just the way you do for about 36 hours after stumbling onto this site. I was around from August, 1974 to June, 1998. I did have these feelings but they weren't based upon anything as the facts on this site prove. We wanted to believe these fairy tales--so we did. We lost our sense of discrimination when it came to Maharaji and his trip. We lost our lives, too!

Subject: too many satgurus From: wolfie To: Proud Premie Ji Date Posted: Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 11:15:18 (EST) Email Address: none Message: Oh, maybe you are an idiot? I think at least, this would be better than to think you are not worthy. In respect for your mental health, I think you are joking with what you wrote, if not, don't tell your Mom about it you would cause a lot of missunderstanding for her. Hope you are joking, if not look for a true friend and talk about your 'Perfect Master Problem' Life is the same with or without Maharaji, the only difference is, there is one person less that bucks shouts and screams and I have to listen to. Those were the days my friend we thought they never end, we sing and dance for ever and a day ...............wolfie

Subject: Re: Devotion From: Mirror To: Proud Premie Ji Date Posted: Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 06:37:30 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Anybody can love Maharaji. Mind you, not just anybody! Only those who are willing to fit into the parameters that Maharaji sets. Only those who are willing to distrust their own inner guidance and are open to and in need of loving a master like Maharaji. It is safe to love him for as long as one believes that Maharaji is what one takes him to be. To insure this sense of safety, mind and intuition must be properly trained and conditioned, something both student and master work hard at. It takes enormous courage to outgrow this self willed conditioning. Maybe many of us never will. Growing is difficult, growing is painful. Sometimes reality is too scary, especially if we distrust ourselves. Many of us choose to dream and never wake up. I wish you sweet dreams. I wish you sweet awakenings. I wish you your own self to love first and foremost, in whatever form you choose. It is always your own choice, and no one can take that away from you. Every moment is a new opportunity to choose. Mirror

Subject: Re: he doesnt deserve it From: janet To: Proud Premie Ji Date Posted: Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 04:46:44 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: you are not a person to maharaji. he doesnt care about you for yourself.he doesnt value any individual for themselves. given the choice to spend the rest of his life on a desert island with you, he would think little of your company. that aint love. that aint even like. in his case, its not even tolerance of the ordinary person. what you call love is not love. real love is person to person, committed, knowing. he isnt committed to you. and you think you're commited to him, but the him you are committed to is your imagination of him. you don't know him as he really is, and he has gone to great lengths to be sure that you never do. I once said what you say. i held on. i chased after him. i beleived. and he firmly and angrily pushed me farther and farther away, with the annoyance you display toward getting peanut butter off your hands, making it clear that he couldnt care less what i was, who i was, what i did, felt, thought, needed, knew. it took me a long time to finally get it, but get it, I did. notice how the real issue of this thread got hijacked into a pissing match between you and jethro, and conveniently went completely off of maharaji? notice how that handily pushed an equal number of important posts into the inactive bin and off the readable forum? i noticed. so, just to make sure this duscussion stays on the issue of maharaji and not on your pissing contest, i inserted this poignant commentary before the whole rest of the waste of space. your love for him is no better than the teenager's obsession with cute rock stars. it's self hype. it isnt a real relationship. its all fantasy and escape. they will never personally be known to their idols, never have a relationship with them, but will make them millionaires. in the process of clamoring. and imagining they have a relationship with them. when you realize what the idol really thinks of being stuck with one of their fans, hopefully, it smacks you in the face. and you grow up, overnight. oh-- and that knowledge he showed you? he doesnt use it, himself,. his daddy left a letter saying he wanted the family product to be sold by his sons after he died, so prem did what the old man asked him to. aside from flying, its the only thing he knows how to do, to make a living., he didnt finish high school, after all, and has no career training, so any other line of work is unthinkable. and its pretty easy, just opening your mouth for an hour and blathering whatever pops into your head and collecting half a mil for it, and making a dvd aping the four things your old man showed you when you were 6 and witholding it from people until they swear their lives to you. piece of cake. 'that ain working! that's the way ya do it! money for nothing and your chicks for free'

Subject: By his grace, that's just so precious [nt] From: Thelma the Church lady To: Proud Premie Ji Date Posted: Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 04:42:58 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: I think your feelings are really beautiful From: Loaf To: Proud Premie Ji Date Posted: Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 03:38:21 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: and there is no.. BUT ! I like devotion. Its simple, sweet, naive, trusting.. and all good qualities ! I think that the state of devotion is a very precious one. Continue to enjoy it... it is expensive and beautiful. I still have theose feelings. Precious and beyond price. Good luck. Loafie

Subject: From: To: Date Posted: Email Address: Message:

Subject: To Premie Ji: From: ChrisP To: Loaf Date Posted: Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 14:23:07 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Premie Ji. I'm actually glad for you that you are deriving enjoyment from Knowledge and feeling gratitude to M. I say that because I felt the same beautiful feelings for many years as a premie. Actually, today would be my 28th anniversary of receiving K. Myself, not wanting to disturb that nice experience, I never bothered to read EPO for a long time. 'I'm appalled to read what you think about my master.' So what do I think now? I gradually became disillusioned with the cult-like tactics of the organization around Mj as well as the unnecessary personality idolization (I thought a little less arrogance would greatly suit him, even if he is the master). Over the last year, a series of unanswered questions (I won't go into them here unless you ask me to) rose to a point of unacceptability for me, and after the KIT training session I decided to check out what the ex-premies had to say for a change. The explanations passed from the organization and other premies smacked too much of being a one-sided untested cliché to hold water any longer for me. I started reading EPO posts last fall with a very objective viewpoint - 'they better be convincing'. Like you, I was also put off initially by the scoffing sarcasm. But my questions and disillusions (drips) were burning strong enough to sit me through that initial reaction and read on. I started with Michael Dettmers' posts as I knew he would be a credible, intelligent source who worked closely with M for many years and could tell us a little more of what the real Mj, the man behind the scenes, was really like. Then I read the reports of how Jagdeo's pedophile activities and Mj's hit and run accident were dealt with. Then I read John Macgregor's post, another credible behind-the-scenes witness. The next day I sent an email message to Mj asking him to reply directly to me on what he himself had to say about all this. I specified I needed a relevant answer from him, not just another line like 'What you seek and dig up is what you will find', or 'Seek perfection only in Knowledge, not in me or my organization' - these lines are simply not good enough any more. I ended the message saying if he doesn't respond to me, then I will consider the accusations true and will withdraw my support for him and Elan Vital. To this day, I have still not received a reply. Since then I've been reading about cults and mind control techniques, as well as reading the thoughts and understandings of other posters here on the Forum. I see it as a very healthy thing to do, since true questioning and reasoning is what digs beneath surface lies. The premies I knew were unwilling to engage me on this, but here it is allowed. To you and other premies coming here for the first time, my advice is you won't and don't have to agree with everyone and everything said here. There are many diverse viewpoints expressed here. You can be as selective as you like in your reading. But I heartily encourage you, if you do have something to question that doesn't sit right with you, to not be afraid to dig into it and examine something you suspect is an 'untruth'. The experience of Knowledge was never meant to repress our human right to question and to derive our OWN conclusions. If you have any questions you'd like to ask here, please feel free to do so. I'll understand if you don't want to discredit Mj and Knowledge - we're both allowed to choose what we believe. All the best, ChrisP

Subject: Fabulous,Chris P (nt) From: Tim G To: ChrisP Date Posted: Tues, Feb 26, 2002 at 05:30:14 (EST) Email Address: timgitti@indigo.ie Message:

Subject: What a great response, Crispy. Thanks. [nt] From: PatC To: ChrisP Date Posted: Tues, Feb 26, 2002 at 04:03:39 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: very good answer.... From: wolfie To: ChrisP Date Posted: Tues, Feb 26, 2002 at 03:31:50 (EST) Email Address: none Message: in case you read this.....sorry Premie Ji my answer was really too sarcastic....wolfie........there was a time were I tried too believe this but it never worked out. There was a time I offered my heart my soul an my possesions, but it did't not fit into Maharaji's world. Slowly I started to think about this, one stepping stone was that simple answer, why there is always so much fear around Maharaji, is it me or is there something to hide away from us? We should not have blind faith and according to that it is neccesarry to ask our real questions and not phoney ones, like am I worhty to be in your presence Lord, am I worthy to give you my little money you who deserve the best of everything in gold and diamonds. Or are we already too scared to ask our real questions. The new premies think that it is stupid to belive what you believe and please guess where this information comes from.....simple Maharaji wants them to believe somthing different and guess why, he pesonnallay seems to be ashammed by his own history. Maybe his own kids at home laugh themselfs to dead to think that there are people who believe that their crazy Daddy once was promoted as the Lord of the Univers.....ciao wolfie

Subject: And that was a good answer too, Wolfie [nt] From: PatC To: wolfie Date Posted: Tues, Feb 26, 2002 at 04:05:29 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: ****Best Of**** nice post, ChrisP [nt] From: gerry To: ChrisP Date Posted: Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 20:37:51 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Premie Ji. I'm actually glad for you that you are deriving enjoyment from Knowledge and feeling gratitude to M. I say that because I felt the same beautiful feelings for many years as a premie. Actually, today would be my 28th anniversary of receiving K. Myself, not wanting to disturb that nice experience, I never bothered to read EPO for a long time. 'I'm appalled to read what you think about my master.' So what do I think now? I gradually became disillusioned with the cult-like tactics of the organization around Mj as well as the unnecessary personality idolization (I thought a little less arrogance would greatly suit him, even if he is the master). Over the last year, a series of unanswered questions (I won't go into them here unless you ask me to) rose to a point of unacceptability for me, and after the KIT training session I decided to check out what the ex-premies had to say for a change. The explanations passed from the organization and other premies smacked too much of being a one-sided untested cliché to hold water any longer for me. I started reading EPO posts last fall with a very objective viewpoint - 'they better be convincing'. Like you, I was also put off initially by the scoffing sarcasm. But my questions and disillusions (drips) were burning strong enough to sit me through that initial reaction and read on. I started with Michael Dettmers' posts as I knew he would be a credible, intelligent source who worked closely with M for many years and could tell us a little more of what the real Mj, the man behind the scenes, was really like. Then I read the reports of how Jagdeo's pedophile activities and Mj's hit and run accident were dealt with. Then I read John Macgregor's post, another credible behind-the-scenes witness. The next day I sent an email message to Mj asking him to reply directly to me on what he himself had to say about all this. I specified I needed a relevant answer from him, not just another line like 'What you seek and dig up is what you will find', or 'Seek perfection only in Knowledge, not in me or my organization' - these lines are simply not good enough any more. I ended the message saying if he doesn't respond to me, then I will consider the accusations true and will withdraw my support for him and Elan Vital. To this day, I have still not received a reply. Since then I've been reading about cults and mind control techniques, as well as reading the thoughts and understandings of other posters here on the Forum. I see it as a very healthy thing to do, since true questioning and reasoning is what digs beneath surface lies. The premies I knew were unwilling to engage me on this, but here it is allowed. To you and other premies coming here for the first time, my advice is you won't and don't have to agree with everyone and everything said here. There are many diverse viewpoints expressed here. You can be as selective as you like in your reading. But I heartily encourage you, if you do have something to question that doesn't sit right with you, to not be afraid to dig into it and examine something you suspect is an 'untruth'. The experience of Knowledge was never meant to repress our human right to question and to derive our OWN conclusions. If you have any questions you'd like to ask here, please feel free to do so. I'll understand if you don't want to discredit Mj and Knowledge - we're both allowed to choose what we believe. All the best, ChrisP ---

Subject: Just two questions From: Jethro To: Proud Premie Ji Date Posted: Sun, Feb 24, 2002 at 22:51:54 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You are a rare premie here that will say that Maharaji is The Lord. Does that mean that he can behave in any way he wants? If you were really a proud premie who love'd their Lord, you would not post anonymously.

Subject: So why do you call yourself Jethro? From: Another PPJ To: Jethro Date Posted: Sun, Feb 24, 2002 at 22:56:30 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: That's posting anonymously Mr Fisher. Unbelievable!

Subject: FYI From: Jethro To: Another PPJ Date Posted: Sun, Feb 24, 2002 at 23:10:18 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I changed my name by deedpoll in 1996. So who are you then? And by the way what is your opinion about Maharaji's handling of the Jagdeo affair? Jethro

Subject: PS to another PPJ From: Jethro To: Jethro Date Posted: Sun, Feb 24, 2002 at 23:14:11 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Now apologize!!!

Subject: If you were really THAT proud From: Jethro To: Proud Premie Ji Date Posted: Sun, Feb 24, 2002 at 22:47:51 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: you wouod not be anonymous.

Subject: beyond belief!!! From: This is totally To: Jethro Date Posted: Sun, Feb 24, 2002 at 23:01:47 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: MR ANONYMOUS tell you what. Ask your forum administration to have a detailed explanation on the top header of this forum explaining the meaning of the word HYPOCRITE

Subject: You must learn to From: Jethro To: This is totally Date Posted: Sun, Feb 24, 2002 at 23:12:16 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: control your wild horses.

Subject: errr...right Edd... umm..Jethro From: A completely realised PPJ To: Jethro Date Posted: Sun, Feb 24, 2002 at 23:26:03 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Just keep the vaseline handy for when the friction builds up!

Subject: WOW 3 premies in one night! From: Jethro To: A completely realised PPJ Date Posted: Sun, Feb 24, 2002 at 23:44:49 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Actually I have beautiful skin......but anyway I'll send you some preparation-H so that you can stop scratching. Since you are completely realised then you won't mind us lesser beings asking for your name. So who are you then? Are any of you REALLY proud? And by the way what is your opinion about Maharaji's handling of the Jagdeo affair? The others have ignored the question. Jethro

Subject: Re: WOW 3 premies in one night! From: CRPJ To: Jethro Date Posted: Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 01:09:17 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I dunno, What is your opinion about Mike Jeffrey's handling of the Carol Ciano affair - 30 years after Woodstock happened?

Subject: to CRPJ From: Jethro To: CRPJ Date Posted: Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 03:37:50 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: As you probably don't realise, some us believe that the failure of Maharaji to deal with allegations of molestation of children and rape of at least one child by one of Maharaji's most senior repesentatives should be known to all those who are thinking of getting involved with Maharaji. You and the other premies who ignore this question are as guilty by ommission as is Maharaji. No doubt you are in agreement with the comments made by your peer catweasel to the raped victim, Abi. Premies continual refusal to address this and other issues is amply recorded on the net, for people to make ionformed decisions.

Subject: In that case... From: I am guilty by ommission? To: Jethro Date Posted: Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 07:38:03 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: you are hereby charged as guilty to being an accessory to the unsolved disappearance of Carol Ciano. What have you done about it Mr Justice? You don't give a monkey's arse about Carol Ciano do you? I think you moral zealots are going to refuse to deal with this issue. If so, A black mark will be recorded against your names in the annuls of the Supreme Headquarters of International Justice and Salvation for All lnstitute. We will be watching eagerly for your actions on this matter.

Subject: Jethro, you're talking to David Roupell From: PatC To: Jethro Date Posted: Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 04:53:42 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Proud Premie Ji was another person with the apt browser named SPINWAY. The other posts were all made by David Roupell. Too funny I just read a post of his signed DR below claiming that he never posts over here anymore but that he was informed by someone else that he had been mentioned here. I think I prefer Proud Premie's honesty. Roupell lies with every word including AND and THE - pathological - oops, sorry, I'll be charitable - brains warped by belonging to twisted cult.

Subject: Re: Jethro, you're talking to David Roupell From: Jethro To: PatC Date Posted: Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 07:31:02 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'Too funny I just read a post of his signed DR below claiming that he never posts over here anymore but that he was informed by someone else that he had been mentioned here.' Well David Roupell or not, they are doing a great service towards the ex-premie cause by exuding their smelly egos all over the place. It's a beautiful day here and I just bought myself a new suit. Be well Jethro

Subject: from a cult member on Life be Great From: Amaroo(HAJ) statistics To: All Date Posted: Sun, Feb 24, 2002 at 13:58:27 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: A Short History Since 1992, Elan Vital Australia has hosted five international and regional conventions at Ivory's Rock Conference Centre. October 1992 It all began simply with a 4 day event in October of 1992. 3,500 people attended, coming mainly from Australia, Europe and North America. Most people stayed in hotels in the Brisbane and Ipswich areas, but a small contingent of 450 people stayed in site, pioneering camping at the conference centre. June 1993 A year later, a smaller regional convention took place in June. 2,000 people attended the three day event. This time 600 people camped and enjoyed the great outdoors. May 1994 3,200 people came to the convention in May 1994, and a much larger number of people chose to stay on site. September 1997 People came from all over the world to attend the convention in September 1997. It truly was a major international event, and even though most people came from Australia, Europe and North America, more than 60 countries were represented. The event was marked by the first use of the outdoor amphitheatre at Ivory's Rock Conference Centre which seated 4,500 people over the 4 days of the program. Over 1,300 people camped out under the Southern Cross enjoying the unique flavour of an Australian 'bush camping' experience. April 2001 The last international Elan Vital convention at Ivory’s Rock Conference Centre was in April 2001 and attracted more than 4600 attendees from 60 countries. The Conference Centre management described it as their most successful conference. Delegates enjoyed the break from daily routines in the great outdoors of southeast Queensland, with more than 1800 staying in high-class tent accommodation at the Sandy Creek campgrounds. The Pavilion, with its large dome, is the new hub of the Conference Centre. It was finished just in time for the conference, and featured food stalls and specialty shops. A large dome at the centre of the Pavilion offered a shady area to meet and eat. Each afternoon delegates gathered at the Amphitheatre with its spectacular view of Ivory’s Rock. The Amphitheatre was also upgraded in time for the convention, and offered new stage facilities and translation booths. Following the success of the 2001 conference Elan Vital has confirmed its intention to hold international conventions at Amaroo every year.

Subject: A new use for Amaroo... From: Sunday Funnies To: Amaroo(HAJ) statistics Date Posted: Sun, Feb 24, 2002 at 14:56:32 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Amaroo becomes profitable at last. Possible future for Amaroo...? www.geocities.com/cmsjourney/marla2.htm

Subject: The Divine City at last! From: Dickie Pwkie To: Sunday Funnies Date Posted: Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 11:59:37 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I just knew all you winey loosers were wrong. My master Maharaji does have a plan to spread peace to the world. We've all been waiting 30 years and now that the time is perfect, the Divine City has begun. After practicing this morning, I phoned in my down payment in US funds for a cottage on Darshan Lane. I'm told by Kitty my broker that if I stand on the kitchen sink and lean way over I get a view of the planned Divine Residence. Thanks so much to Chuck for giving us a head's up on this. Otherwise I might have missed this blissful opportunity. Don't forget, if you're ever in the neighborhood, the door is always open. Dickie

Subject: it's so obvious From: janet To: Sunday Funnies Date Posted: Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 04:57:52 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: i dont know what's taking them so long to see it

Subject: Re: A new use for Amaroo... From: PatW To: Sunday Funnies Date Posted: Sun, Feb 24, 2002 at 17:53:19 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: This one's a printer! Nice work Thelma..

Subject: It's Chuck's work, PatW :C) [nt] From: PatC-----Don't thank Thelma To: PatW Date Posted: Sun, Feb 24, 2002 at 19:12:24 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: LOL From: Richard To: Sunday Funnies Date Posted: Sun, Feb 24, 2002 at 15:31:29 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Great job, Sunday Funnies. Outdoor patio grill does double-duty as an Industrial-Strength Arti Tray. ...the perfect home for the avid Gopi! LOL!!!

Subject: About 'Quiet' From: Dermot To: All Date Posted: Sun, Feb 24, 2002 at 01:22:47 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I actually haven't been following ALL Quiets posts and don't know all the ins and outs of the saga and I'm not trying to brush up anyone the wrong way or anything....BUT :) as far as I can see he or she is a lousy speller and keeps going on about being a student lawyer but I don't think I've come across any maliciousness on his part or any abusive behaviour and he's kept to the same handle throughout....or have I missed something? I just wonder why he's been deleted/banned and labelled a troll.Seems a bit harsh but maybe I don't have the full story. ?? Cheers Dermot

Subject: Quiet is Ok with me From: Abi To: Dermot Date Posted: Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 02:15:36 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Seems like a gentle enough soul to me.

Subject: Quiet is NOT ok with me From: gerry To: Abi Date Posted: Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 11:01:17 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Seems like a gentle enough soul to me. --- Looks are deceiving. Interact with this person at your own risk, and please do not encourage this TROLL to post here as all its posts will be deleted. Also I am working on discovering this troll's identity so I can report it to it's internet service provider as some one who is harrassing our board.

Subject: Re: Quiet is NOT ok with me From: Quiet To: gerry Date Posted: Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 04:51:15 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You opinion id recorded *Q*

Subject: Re: Quiet is NOT ok with me From: PatC To: gerry Date Posted: Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 14:26:54 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I wish I had no morals then I would post his emails to me. The guy is a game-player. He may not be an evil cult agent provocateur but his games and lies are extremely disdainful. Tidbit from emails: his explanation for using multiple aliases, ''I share the same computer in my office with twelve other expremies.'' That was said supposedly with a straight face. Maybe Abi is just more tolerant of sophomoric Aussie male humor.

Subject: Re: About 'Quiet' From: Livia To: Dermot Date Posted: Sun, Feb 24, 2002 at 11:09:50 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Dermot, you were wondering about Quiet; well, my view for what it's worth is this. I've been reading virtually all the posts for quite a few weeks now, and every time Quiet posts, I get a funny feeling. He suddenly appeared one day, and after he received the customary welcome, omitted to go on to describe himself or tell his story in any shape or form. If he had bothered to read the suggestions on EPO as to how to join in the discussion here, he would have read that it's a bit like entering a room full of people who know each other. It's no more than general politeness to introduce yourself and approach the people already there in a friendly manner. Instead of any of this, he arrived with what appeared to be all guns blazing, and launched immediately into ideas of how to trip M up in a legal sense. It just seemed odd to me. Someone else appeared at around the same time with the name of Subdeo. This person seemed very similar, and made exactly the same spelling mistakes. As soon as it was suggested that they were the same person, Subdeo denied it but then vanished never to return. Every time Quiet appears, the thread quickly degenerates into a generally petty and off-topic long-winded argument, contributing nothing whatsoever of any value to anyone here is is genuinely attempting to deconstruct in a mutually supportive manner what can be up to 30 years of cult think. Quiet doesn't add to this in any shape or form. The one time he really seemed to become excited was when there was a discussion a few weeks ago of how to get some of this into the press. Someone said that this shouldn't really be discussed openly on a public forum. Quiet immediately objected strongly and insisted loudly that the discussion should indeed take place openly on the forum. This set alarm bells ringing for me and I immediately felt he was probably a premie troll whose agenda here is to distract with meaningless and irrelevant debate and also as an 'agent provocateur'. And he still hasn't told his story. When exactly did he receive K? From whom? Where did he live during all his years as a premie? When did he exit? Was it as a result of reading EPO? What does he feel strongly about? After all, he should be feeling strongly about something to want to bring Maharaji down using the legal system. Or I could be completely wrong and Quiet is just an extrememly irritating, self-seeking, narcissistic idiot who enjoys wasting everyone's time here. Cannot he not see that for those reasons alone he deserves to be deleted? With love, Livia

Subject: Thanks Livia From: Dermot To: Livia Date Posted: Sun, Feb 24, 2002 at 12:44:08 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Livia Well, when you explain it so clearly, as you've just done, I definitely see your point. Maybe I've had my eye off the ball in this case...... .....and you're right, an ex with a lawsuit agenda would surely make himself and his history more known to fellow exes before trying to embroil them in some action(s)that could backfire with negative consequences. Well, Quiet has settled in to posting over on Sir D's forum and the onus is surely on him to explain himself..... Oh well.....thanks for your post. Cheers Dermot

Subject: Re: Thanks Livia From: CW To: Dermot Date Posted: Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 01:25:35 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I have to say I'm suss of our little friend.It's a really piss-poor effort at infiltrating the gates of MORDOR.Shit,we are a lot better than that! Apart from myself and DR you never even know we are here!())And a big cheerio to Bazz:hey ,what a guy! (I'm just a little concerned about him being told by PatC that he had the Headjob when he was FA.):)

Subject: Re: Thanks Livia From: |D Catweasel|D To: CW Date Posted: Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 07:00:26 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hey Pat, he said you just told him to keep his head down and keep WORKIN!:p:p:p:p What I am saying is that you have 'ghosts' in your midst who you know and trust here on F7~) I think M/s Quiet is a little too unreal.Too doopsy to be true?

Subject: CW, you must gave been drunk.... From: PatC To: CW Date Posted: Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 04:36:16 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ....when you wrote the above post. I just read a perfectly sane post of yours on LG that you wrote a while ago. Either you are a binge boozer, have multiple personality disorder or there is more than one of you because I can't make head nor tail of what your above post means. Would you care to decode it?

Subject: I can help From: The admirable doctor To: PatC Date Posted: Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 09:31:10 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: He means what you already know but don't really want to look at too closely. Come on, you know damn well we ARE that brillinat. Littel nats that we are.... (;)) (;)) (:)) (:)) That we are, too, in miriad forms and personalities, right in your midst, as trusted and loyal servants to the cause. Why not? Much of what you (we) speak is true. One day we will rip our rubber masks off though, and after the shock you will see the true faces of love and laughter before you. And we will all join together in a holy and memorable celebration of the glory of the lives we all share in the truth of love and life. May the joy of love and life remain with you always brother. Long may you continue to give warmth, hope, comfort and good cheer to those around you... :) (:))

Subject: Well, thanks, David. Nice sentiments From: PatC To: The admirable doctor Date Posted: Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 14:18:56 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I also look forward to that day but it will probably only happen when the ego dissolves at death and then we will all be ''merged in that one love'' and won't be able to tell ourselves apart from others. :C) Meantime back in maya we'll all just keep on trucking.

Subject: a bit of technical help please! From: Livia To: All Date Posted: Sat, Feb 23, 2002 at 19:58:52 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Sorry to be such a Luddite, but please somebody tell me how, when writing a post here, you embolden or italicize a piece of text. I can do it on Word, obviously, but if you then copy to here, the emboldening etc disappear. Thanks! Liv

Subject: Can be done via Word actually ... From: Opie To: Livia Date Posted: Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 05:55:28 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Livia Actually you can do it in Word easily but it requires a few steps to get there. 1. Open Word 2. Type what you want to say 3. Use whatever formatting suits your style or mood at that time 4. Save as HTML (ignore message about losing formatting etc) 5. Rename file extension from .htm to .txt 6. Open txt file in notepad or whatever, select all, copy and then paste into Hotboards 7. Voila Using the above steps I reformatted your original post as below. Once you have gone through above steps a couple of times you will be able to do it in your sleep! Or you can continue using the < > <> method! OP Sorry to be such a Luddite, but please somebody tell me how, when writing a post here, you embolden or italicize a piece of text. I can do it on Word, obviously, but if you then copy to here, the emboldening etc disappear. Thanks! Liv

Subject: way of explaining it. From: A little simpler To: Livia Date Posted: Sun, Feb 24, 2002 at 11:02:48 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The symbol i for italics the symbol b for bold the symbol u for underline Insert these symbols between the <> at the beginning of the phrase you want changed to italics, bold or underline, and end the changed text phrase with a forward slash / after the symbol you want to use, between the same <> symbols.

Subject: Re: a bit of technical help please! From: Dermot To: Livia Date Posted: Sat, Feb 23, 2002 at 21:09:53 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Livia < with the letter..I... for italics.....then close it with > those 3 symbols will start the italics. To finish the italicised section... again start with < followed by ... /I ........followed by > those 4 symbols will end the italicised section. For bold use B instead of I

Subject: Re: a bit of technical help please! From: Deborah To: Livia Date Posted: Sat, Feb 23, 2002 at 20:05:52 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Livia, Use the following: ... for the following features Replace ? with the small letter i. Put the text you want italicized in between those symbols. Replace ? with the small letter b. Put the text you want bold in between those symbols Replace ? with the small letter u. Put the text you want underlined in between those symbols Cheers, and happy word processing deborah

Subject: Re: a bit of technical help -go here! From: janet To: Deborah Date Posted: Sun, Feb 24, 2002 at 03:13:03 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: all the above entries failed because the browser reader actually followed the directions the people typed into their mails, instead of leaving the directions visible. here's a better way to learn it: I've found you the page I learned my html basics from. go there and sutdy the instructions, and if you wnat to practice, look on the pages for their html test bed, which is a blank box or screen on which to write html code, one line at a time, as per their instructions, and then to press the button which takes what you've written in code and shows you n the next screen what that looks like when the browser translates it into webpage presentation. this forum reads html tags if they are written into the post. you can make your post appear with different sizes of letters [font size=], different colors of lettering, or both, and you can turnany part of your post into bold, italic, underlined, stricken thru or mimicking typewriter letters, by surrounding the words of your post with matching tags on either side, just like you use parentheses. remember that jtml tags work like matching sets of bookends, or think of them as layers of doors you have to go thru to get to your objective. every door you open on the way in to the text in question, you must remember to close on the way out, in the reverse order from which you entered. {if you think about it, it only makes sense. it's like those nesting dolls. you can only open them and close them back up in one order. with doors, you can't close a door that's behind one you already have shut behind you. you can only open them in the order you come to them, and likewise, can only shut them one by one behind you, as you go out from the target destination to where you came in from} so all html tags surrounding any words you want to embellish, will have all the 'begin modification here' tags of the left side of the target words, like so: I'm using different flavors of parentheses to represent different commands like 'italicize', 'embolden', 'underline'--tho all the html codes for those changes use the same kind of bracketing seen in the lesson I'm sending you to-- begin changes here~>(x)[y]{z}your target words go here(/x)[/y]{/z}<~end changes with these. practice a bit. you don't need to tag the top and bottom of your posts with the actual ' begin html tags' and 'end' tags all the time. i find if i just insert the italic or bold tags around my target words, they come out fine. if they fail to show that way, then i repost or edit to put the html alert tags on top and bottom, so the browser knows that the following text is to be read and rendered with html embellishments included. you can learn a hell of a lot of html from this site. I sure did. go to http://www.draac.com/html3.html http://www.draac.com/html3.html

Subject: Looks like you need my HTML course From: Sir Dave To: janet Date Posted: Sun, Feb 24, 2002 at 06:13:15 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Here you go: Click here to see how to do fancy text and insert links There's a lot you can do when you know how.

Subject: oop-correction!! From: janet To: janet Date Posted: Sun, Feb 24, 2002 at 03:21:56 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I f*ked up! you close the tags in reverse order that you open them-- so the order of surrounding should be: (x)[y]{z}your words here{/z}[/y](/x) layers. nesting dolls. and remember this ver carefully: anything that you open, you must close as you leave. if you don't, you get bizarre errors you can't remember making. you will get an entire post in italic, or bold, or underline, because you forgot to count openers and closers, and forgot to indicate to the machine where it was supposed to quit doing that to the text. tags have to occur in matched pairs. whew--i just did it, to put that in italic, underlined bold ! gets kinda nervewracking at first. but you'll get it.

Subject: Thanx!!! From: Livia To: janet Date Posted: Sun, Feb 24, 2002 at 10:36:52 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks darlings for all your help/expertise!!! I was kind of hoping to find out that there was a way to do it as on Word, ie a way to a toolbar, but alas it's not to be. However I shall try it all out. Please bear with me as I grind painfully into the 21st century. With love, as always, Liv XX

Subject: Word - HTML test From: Richard To: Livia Date Posted: Sun, Feb 24, 2002 at 12:34:23 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Livia, I am attempting to create a document in Word and save it as HTML. I wrote this in Word, saved as HTML and copied it to a new message window here. This line should be bold. This line should be italic. This line should be bold italic. This line should be underlined. This line should be larger and bold. This line should be red. Well, I just checked and it seems to work. In the Quoted Message window below, you should be able to see the HTML coding that Word put in. Happy HTML-ing Richard

Subject: Re: HTML error From: janet the nitpicker To: Richard Date Posted: Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 05:23:19 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I proofed your html code for the hell of it, and was surprised to find a lone 'close font' tag in one of your lines, for which there was no corresponding 'open font' tag earlier in the code. weird. did you do that, or did the machine you ran it thru? i notice the tags dont close in the reverse order they are opened in. that's peculiar. and all these paragraph breaks are odd. i was taught to use 'BR' as separaters if there are going to be more than one space ocurring between lines or blocks of text. I was told to save the paragraph break for instances when only one large space was to occur somewhere in the layout. hmmmm. oh--and also--aren't the cases supposed to match on the sets of tags? either both in caps or both in lowercase, but not mixed? I was taught that being consistent was important, because if we all move up to the next standard. which is supposedly going to be xtml, all cases will have to match or it won't scan at all in xtml. ok , I'm done nitpicking now. you can go back to your professional livlihood of 30 years' duration and ignore me, who has never worked in Graphics except as a go-fer. obviously, the browser read it just fine janet the micromanager

Subject: Re: HTML error From: Richard To: janet the nitpicker Date Posted: Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 11:49:35 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I confess, the Word HTML to Forum paste did work but I couldn't resist tinkering with the code. Therin lies the errors you found. Opie has good instructions above.

Subject: Alan Watts on Gurus From: Suedoula To: All Date Posted: Sat, Feb 23, 2002 at 16:06:44 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi all, My husband (never a premie) has been reading Alan Watts as of late and is encouraging me to do the same. Out of curiousity I picked up Myth and Religion and this is what I found: 'I am often asked the question, 'Is it really necessary to have a guru?' I can answer that only by saying, 'It is necessary, if you think so.' That is said in the same spirit as one might say that anybody who goes to a psychiatrist ought to have his head examined. There is more in that saying than meets the ear, because if you are sincerely concerned with yourself, and are in such confusion that you feel you have to go to a psychiatrist to talk over your state, then of course you need to go. Likewise, if you are in need of someone to tell you how to practice meditation, or attain a state of liberation, nirvana, moksha, or whatever it may be called, and if you feel that necessity very strongly, then you must do it because, as the poet William Blake said, ' The fool who persists in his folly will become wise.' However, I do want to ask you, What is the source of a guru's authority? He can tell you he speaks from experience, that he has experienced states of consciousness that have made him profoundly blissful, understanding, compassionate, or whatever. You have his word for it and you may have the word of other people who likewise agree with him. But each one of them and you in turn, agree with him from out of your own opinion, and by your own judgement. So it is you who are the source of the teacher's authority.' Just some food for thought for the day. Warmly, Susan

Subject: More Alan Watts pickpocketing your own watch From: A friend To: Suedoula Date Posted: Sun, Feb 24, 2002 at 01:26:56 (EST) Email Address: None Message: From Still the Mind by Alan Watts (which I am reading): 'When you confer spiritual authority on another person, you must realize that you are allowing them to pick your pocket and sell you your own watch.' Maybe a great intellect like Jim could explain this to me! How can you be certain with any great teacher that they know what they say they know? I would say the proof of the pudding is in the eating ; if you practice what the teacher is (preaching) and you experience 'nirvana' theni guess you could say the teacher is pointing and taking you in the direction that you most likely would want to go. A Friend

Subject: Re: More Alan Watts pickpocketing your own watch From: Suedoula To: A friend Date Posted: Sun, Feb 24, 2002 at 08:54:44 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dear Friend, Do you really need Jim to explain this? Are willing to pay this person for your own watch? Best, Susan

Subject: Muktanada From: Dave Punshon To: All Date Posted: Sat, Feb 23, 2002 at 15:47:37 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I came across this web page about Swami Muktananda - http://rigel.cyberpass.net/truth/ check out the 'First Time Here' page which talks about Muktananda's secret passage to the young girls' dorm at his ashram. After all, the Guru is beyond laws etc.... Fascinating reading indeed all the bset Dave http://rigel.cyberpass.net/truth/

Subject: Re: Muktanada From: Sulla To: Dave Punshon Date Posted: Tues, Feb 26, 2002 at 14:47:55 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Very interesting. Thank you!

Subject: Thanks, Dave From: gerry To: Dave Punshon Date Posted: Sat, Feb 23, 2002 at 16:13:38 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I've made a bit of a study on old Muktee; he had the juju and no doubt fooled a lot of smart people. But in the end he turned out to be just another predator. I've read he was having sex with teenage girls younger than eighteen by using his guru juju, which, of course made him a pedophile and a rapist. He was worshipped as an avatar like the Filament. Could do no wrong, above it all, not responsible for his actions, also like the Marvel of Malibu.

Subject: Um, ah.....(OT-about donations) From: gerry To: All Date Posted: Sat, Feb 23, 2002 at 14:52:42 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I just sent a 'thank you' note to someone for their paypal donation. Then I noticed as I scrolled down the notification email, it says 'do not reply to this email.' I've sent email to everyone sending a donation by replying to the email notification. Now I'm not sure anyone received these notes of graditude and I'm thinking I might be a putz. Can anybody give me some clarity on this? I'd be highly appreciative...:)

Subject: No gerry . . . From: Richard To: gerry Date Posted: Sat, Feb 23, 2002 at 15:31:10 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: . . . you're not a putz. Then again, maybe you are. You never replied to my invitation to Latvian Lunch in Seattle recently when the Heller BC contingent was here. But I notice you can traipse all the way to San Francisco. :)

Subject: About that twenty bucks, Ger From: Jim To: Richard Date Posted: Sat, Feb 23, 2002 at 17:03:20 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Look, why don't you keep half of it as my lifetime annual contribution to the forum's upkeep. The other ten you can just send me Fed Ex or something. Not their ground service, it'd take over a week to get here.

Subject: Second fiddle again... From: gerry To: Richard Date Posted: Sat, Feb 23, 2002 at 16:00:31 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You guys gave me about thirty minutes lead time, and besides, I still owe Heller twenty bucks...

Subject: Opposing Views From: gerry To: All Date Posted: Sat, Feb 23, 2002 at 13:25:43 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I found this to be an interesting point of view from Life is Great. I have no doubt of this man's sincerity and profoundly disagree with him at almost the atomic level. Of course the author, jbsf, is cordially invited to defend his views if he so desires. Please be polite to my guest :) An interesting psychological phenomenon going on here, demagogues, a combination of intense passion and undeveloped intellect. Bob Mishler, Michael Dettmers, the list is probably quite extensive; people who failed to usurp Prem’s power and so sought to manipulate the pain and confusion of those they perceived were vulnerable to suggestion. The demagogue uses the anger and frustration of others by suggesting that his enemy (Prem Rawat) is the cause of their suffering, and therefore they should now join his army to fight the newly identified enemy. This is the m.o. of every despot: to attain power through deception and psychological manipulation. Hitler, Stalin, bin Laden, etc. Hitler was refused admission to art school so he decided to murder 6 million people. Bin Laden was rebuffed by the King of Saudi Arabia and so wants to recruit poverty stricken millions to attack America, in his mind, a weaker target. He knows well that the King would have him decapitated if push came to shove. The ex-premies appear to be fairly impotent in their attempts to attack Maharaji directly, so they choose to come here and attack those perceived to be weak, like wolves picking off the stray lamb. Maybe I’ve just answered one of my own antique questions: why does Prem seem to keep so many incompetent people around him? I have seen this for three decades, one screw ball instructor, community leader, bureaucrat, after another ad nauseum. I did lose it at one point... maybe these were all the potential future despots who needed to be defanged, neutralized, de-venomed. There always was a saying ‘the wet wood needs to be closest to the fire’. The few who slipped through without being totally defanged are now the ones, who, like wounded animals, return to attempt to storm the castle again with their seething rage and bitter hatred, ready to use any tactic, however evil, to attain the object of their desire, POWER. This is all part of evolution of the worlds, survival of the fittest. Biology. Psychology. Chimpanzees are notorious for murdering their neighbor chimps. They even eat their own young on occasion. The alpha male rips the infant out of its mother’s arms, kills it and begins to eat it, offering some of the meat to the anguished mother. I lived with Bob Mishler. The most vicious ‘ex-premies’ are the ones who spent the most time with Prem and were the very same people who ran the ashram hierarchy with the iron fist of fanatic devotion. We were required to rise at 4:30 am every morning to sing the extended version of arti, maybe twenty stanzas long. I was expelled from the ashram for meditating too much and ‘disrupting’ the ashram schedule. This was i months after i had turned over my trust fund to Divine Blight Mission. But I’m not in the least angry with Prem for any of this. i see it as my lesson in self-defense. As long and difficult as it has been, it has transformed me from a totally dependent impotent worm to...well maybe I’ve reached reptilian status. If you haven’t heard REPTILIAN by Nine Inch Nails, I highly recommend it. ssssssssssssssssssssat chit. Bitches and whores united to fight evil..........

Subject: Re: Opposing Views From: Nigel To: gerry Date Posted: Sun, Feb 24, 2002 at 21:22:18 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: There always was a saying ‘the wet wood needs to be closest to the fire’. The few who slipped through without being totally defanged are now the ones, who, like wounded animals, return to attempt to storm the castle again with their seething rage and bitter hatred, ready to use any tactic, however evil, to attain the object of their desire, POWER. This is all part of evolution of the worlds, survival of the fittest. Biology. Psychology. Chimpanzees are notorious for murdering their neighbor chimps. They even eat their own young on occasion. The alpha male rips the infant out of its mother’s arms, kills it and begins to eat it, offering some of the meat to the anguished mother. Some truths were spoken, albeit ONLY in this last detail, but the poster is (- yawn -) typically mistaking natural selection for human culture. As for the 'interesting psychological phenomenon' (demagogues): he is making it up. Or has been reading stuff written by someone else who is making it up. Maybe they are both on drugs. Whatever...He/she has read too many of those genteel-archaic 'There was once a prince / there-has-always-been-a-saying..'- type instructional tract published by dream-chasers of the lowest order. I note he/she capitalises 'POWER' in a non-specific sense when talking about exes, without noting the word's greater applicability to the fat bloke from India with the Armani suits and $7M pleasure boat.

Subject: An opposing views From: Michael Dettmers To: gerry Date Posted: Sun, Feb 24, 2002 at 06:34:22 (EST) Email Address: dettmers@gylanix.com Message: Interesting analysis, jbsf. However, it lacks coherence. Are you are suggesting that I am a demagogue and a despot, the metaphorical equivalent of a Hitler vis-à-vis the art school director (Maharaji), or Bin Laden vis-à-vis the King of Saudi Arabia (Maharaji)? Get serious. The demagogue in your scenario is Maharaji. I, unlike many, had an opportunity to witness how he, to use your words, “attain(ed) power through deception and psychological manipulation.” I have simply reported the inconsistencies I witnessed between what he preached and what he practiced. What people choose to do with that information is there own business. Thus, you are free to believe that “ex-premies appear to be fairly impotent in their attempts to attack Maharaji directly.” However, the CAC attacks suggest otherwise. How do you explain that “interesting psychological phenomenon?”

Subject: Re: Opposing Views From: Cynthia To: gerry Date Posted: Sat, Feb 23, 2002 at 17:57:15 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The ex-premies appear to be fairly impotent in their attempts to attack Maharaji directly, so they choose to come here and attack those perceived to be weak, like wolves picking off the stray lamb. Maybe I’ve just answered one of my own antique questions: why does Prem seem to keep so many incompetent people around him? I have seen this for three decades,one screw ball instructor, community leader, bureaucrat, after another ad nauseum. I did lose it at one point... maybe these were all the potential future despots who needed to be defanged, neutralized, de-venomed. This is incorrect and a spin. Recent experience on LG has proven to me that the premies who post there are far from lambs waiting for slaughter, quite the opposite. People who don't know about wolves shouldn't talk about them. They are predators who were essential to our ecosystem. They've been killed off because of a perceived notion that they are evil creatures. Their source of food is not lambs or cattle either, in the wild they eat rodents and other small mammals; it's only when humans started to incroach upon their environment (with cattle and sheep ranches, for instance) that wolves became a creature to be hated and killed off. So that's an incorrect example, too. Demonizing wolves is stupid and comparing ex-premies to them is even more silly. When I posted about DECA here, then on LG, I received a personal attack, to which Roupell responded to the effect on LG...'folks, don't get too personal about the inner circle stuff'...which I assume includes the premie who was mentioned in the attack against me (by the FA, not me). As Francesca says below, the whole post above is illogical. Sounds like a desperate attempt to sound smart. At DECA, for instance, I encountered some of the most talented and smart people. What did the lard do with them? He used them and wasted them. As far as ex-premies not being able to stop the Maharajism cult, (as characterized by the writer, jbsf, as ''attacking him'') well, maharaji won't allow any questions, allow a review of his deficiencies and flaws, or any sort of criticism. The information on EPO has been validated by those witnesses who came forward for a variety of reasons. Also, premies fail to realize that incompetence starts at the top in any organization, including the Maharajism cult. Knowledge and Maharaji, or self-knowledge and Maharaji are intwined to the extent that they cannot be separated, regardless of the efforts of the premies on LG. When ex-premies try to tell the truth about experiences while in the cult these aren't attempts to gain Maharaji's power, (who wants that? I certainly don't) but it's an effort on the part of exiting premies to regain our own personal power over the cultist thinking and behavior, not to mention our freedom of thought, which was stolen by Maharaji and the cult. To characterize ex-premies as ''vicious'' is untrue. There are exes who come here from a wide variety of experiences. Some were very close to m, some not. It doesn't have any bearing on anything, except what has been witnessed first hand while following m. I'm certainly not going to stop telling the truth because of premies on LG. It's not a personal revenge, either. Backlash will come. I can handle it and will. So, the whole post above doesn't make much sense to me; it's just another angle or attempt to discredit what's been done on EPO thus far by someone who is trying to sound like they have a full, independent and thinking brain. In contrast, the intelligent level of ex-premies who post here is quite high IMO. I'm often delighted at the high level of education, vocabulary, life and career experience, and theability to write, etc. I never heard the expression, 'wet wood needs to stay close to the fire,' and haven't a clue what it means. I make fires all the time. Indoors and outdoors. This must be some kind of mystery, I don't know about.:) Cynthia

Subject: Answer this:) From: Cat WOLVE To: Cynthia Date Posted: Sat, Feb 23, 2002 at 20:00:40 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: What he means is that the Hex's only focus on the more pliable and gentler P's when visiting LG.And he is right.You come over and take a dump in a bucket in the middle of our loungeroom and expect us to be pleased. Not only that ,but you do it again,and because we live in a free range enviroment ,we have to put up with it - no cleaning allowed! You lied about what happened over there You were engaged in a dialogue with me.You were asked if you had EVER enjoyed the practice of K-(going inside)You confused that deliberately over a couple of days with a whole lot of stuff you were involved with.The question was specific.Did you ever enjoy Knowledge itself? After avoiding answering that and using our Loungeroom as your soapbox(bathroom?),DR had had enough of you.He served it up in a way you yourself have done many times.(Where do you think we learn these bad habits?) You dont like me coming here and commenting.You lobbied to send me packing Why on earth do you think we will welcome your garbage over there with open arms?Especially considering you refuse to communicate on something as basic as to whether you ever enjoyed practising K (In your terms read meditation) Honesty is the basic building bock of trust

Subject: To: Catweasal... From: Cynthia To: Cat WOLVE Date Posted: Sat, Feb 23, 2002 at 20:19:50 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: To: Catweasal You asked a question and I answered it. You never responded. You ignored the answer. So you conspired to hurt me and you succeeded. Are you happy? Is that what 'enjoying life' is to you, to purposely injure people in the most private and intimate way? Congratulations, you succeeded. Good for you and SRR and your Guru. NOW, LISTEN HERE... This is the last communication I will ever grant you. Yes, grant you. You and your inner circle have caused me enough pain for a very long time to come. SRR can rot in hell for all I care. Talk about an emotional midget! Not to mention coward, just like Maharaji, your lord. Are you proud? You should be ashamed! And tell SR I take back my words to him when we last met. I don't absolve him (I recind my fogiveness to that beggar). I don't forgive him his weaknesses and his pouty childish behavior. Plus, until he gets published, he may well shut his face about being am ''American Writer,'' too. These are the last words I will ever, ever write to you Mr. Catweasal. You give that wonderful species of animals a very bad name. Very sincerely, Cynthia J. Gracie Vermont, USA And what's your name, coward?

Subject: Re: To: Catweasal... From: Catweasel:P:P:P:P:P:P:P To: Cynthia Date Posted: Sat, Feb 23, 2002 at 23:53:32 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: My name? Catweasel! By deed poll... You did NOT answer the questio DR appolged over there to you. I did not attack you,denigrate you or harras you In the spirit of you incredibly snipey post to me ,at first I namecalled you. Then we started to talk about things You never answered my question.You said you lived in an ashram and practised I didn't ask whether you practised.Iasked whether you enjoyed it,K? So stop a drama Queen,come back and finish what you started:)

Subject: Whaaaht?? From: DR To: Catweasel:P:P:P:P:P:P:P Date Posted: Sun, Feb 24, 2002 at 23:23:53 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: An F7 scout alerted me to this mention of my name (well, initials) on this forum (which you will have noted has been delightfully free of DR posts for some time now) Not sure what cat's on about here with Cyn ...but just to clarify... I did not apologise to Cynthia about anything (why on earth?!?!?) I apologied for posting a provocative reply to an innocent post of Mili's about a Henry Rollins concert. I apolgised to all exes, who had an equal right to be affronted and indignant about it. My apology was graciously accepted by JBH for which I remain grateful.

Subject: The wet wood thing From: Francesca :~) To: Cynthia Date Posted: Sat, Feb 23, 2002 at 19:31:11 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Cynthia, That was a traditional premie excuse about the high percentage of incompetents that M usually surrounded himself with. 'The wet wood needs to be closest to the fire,' i.e. that in his infinite grace, those folks really needed to be around him in order to be purified and transformed, or some such nonsense. Those of us that couldn't be as close to Defeet didn't need it as badly. Yeah, I've heard it too. After a number of years of watching his incompentent organization, I realized that it wasn't true. Not all of the folks were idiots, not all were incompetent, and the monkey wrench in the works was really the big Maha. Some of these poor people were just folks like me, trying to follow his impossible orders. What a Simon Sez religion! I wonder if he laughs his ass off at them with a couple of really close sycophants. I wouldn't be surprised, because there really is something nasty about Maharaji. Be well, Francesca

Subject: ''By His Grace''~) From: Cynthia To: Francesca :~) Date Posted: Sat, Feb 23, 2002 at 20:04:28 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Fran, Thanks for the explanation Francesca--I never heard that one before. There are many premies/ex-premies who have extraordinary talents. I was in awe many times at DECA not just by the artists, but by the craftpeople, carpenters, rug-layers (oooh those knees). Women and men with top shelf skills. Not just in the arts, either. In business, in efficiency, in every aspect of any kind of work m has desired and requested. But we were duped into thinking it was 'By His Grace.' It's been the downfall of m and so stupid of him to screw premies' work up so much by interrupting them, by changing directions, instructions on a dime, creating whimsical, but tight deadlines, just sticking his stupid ass nose into the fields in which they have expertise, but is such an egomaniac he doesn't seem to be able to help it. Then, on top of that he takes credit for their work. That's just not right. It's so demeanding. I had myself convinced that the only reason I could sing well in front of an audience was because of his grace. Let us all not forget how many times we were conditioned to believe in him so much we said ''by his Grace.'' That one phrase took possession of our talents, intelligence, minds, and personal power by deferring everything we did to 'by his grace.' By his grace I have talent? Absurd. During the late 70s that phrase was so overused, along with 'lila' (the excuse for having a ''bad experience'') it caused a huge amount of confusion and cognitive dissonance. I had an interesting encounter the other evening. A good friend of mine has come down with late stage prostate cancer at age 50. It's been a big blow but we're keeping positive with concern. His brother, who hasn't been more than an acquaintance over the years has come up to take care of our friend's house and pets. Tom went to see him (the brother). Well. Glory Be! Halleluah! He got zapped by a TV evangelist. He didn't even have to leave his freaking living room and he got zapped by the holy spirit and is preachin' to ring the bell. Tom got freaked. He told me about the preaching and bible thumping and it took him a 1/2 day to recover from the mere contact with someone who, by watching tv, now has himself convinced he has the answer to life. And preaches it without belonging to any congregation. Weird. Weird. Weird. That's all for today Be well, Cynth

Subject: The premise or assumption fails From: Francesca :~) To: gerry Date Posted: Sat, Feb 23, 2002 at 14:33:01 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: From the outset, the threshhold brick upon which his argument is based is false. An interesting psychological phenomenon going on here, demagogues, a combination of intense passion and undeveloped intellect. Bob Mishler, Michael Dettmers, the list is probably quite extensive; people who failed to usurp Prem’s power and so sought to manipulate the pain and confusion of those they perceived were vulnerable to suggestion. Neither Dettmers, nor Mishler are 'demogogues' and I don't see any others popping up their heads. The only one who tried to usurp M's church succeeded. Sat Pal is also a 'Perfect Master' over in India, and he has no involvement with the expremies. He considers his own followers to be premies. Re the intense passion and undeveloped intellect charge. Dettmers, Michler? Michler was dead before the ex-premie thing even started. Dettmers came here to defend himself, initially. Dettmers, for example, hardly ever posts here. He's not leading anyone, and he's not taking them anywhere. Nor did Mischler, in his own day. I don't see that Dettmers or Mischler displayed "intense passion" about this, but the person leveling the charge certainly is displaying the same. So for that theory, but no dice. The original assumption is false. End of story. Over and out.

Subject: My answer from LG From: Jim To: gerry Date Posted: Sat, Feb 23, 2002 at 14:11:47 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Not sure why you found this so interesting, Gerry, but here's my response from LG (where jbsf's post, in its original form was all one block of text): First, it's not that easy reading your posts, Jim, because you write these long, long, unbroken paragraphs that give the impression of uncontrolled, breathless rambling which, as you must know, is definitely the sign of a certain kind of mental instability. I'd think that if you wanted people to take you seriously, even if you had this trait in real life, you'd want to mask it a bit in print. You know, give the impression, at least, that you're not just running off at the mouth. Pause here and there. For your own reflection as well as your reader's. But, Jim, if you actually believe what you're saying here, you really are a bit nuts. The whole ex-premie 'movement' (which really isn't a movement at all) was started by relative nobodies in the cult. We went and got Dettmers to get involved, something he did with some reluctance at first, reluctance only exacerbated by the non-disclosure agreement he'd signed back in the eighties. But Dettmers didn't spearhead anything. Now, I don't know who you consider to be the 'most viscious ex-premies' but it's sheer paranoid imagination on your part to think that there's some core group of rabid exs who used to run the ashrams this way or that. There are a relatively few number of former co-ordinators among the online exes, just as you'd expect there to be. Even these guys, people like Joe, for instance, who was a community coordinator, or JM, an instructor, or John MacGregor, another coordintator type, were just premies trying to serve their master. The only power trips of any significance were Maharaji's. Your effort to somehow avoid that fact seems desperate and delusional.

Subject: This guy is slick-a 'takeover man'? From: John G To: gerry Date Posted: Sat, Feb 23, 2002 at 13:46:10 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'll soon be posting more about con artists and their behaviors but I'll hold back for now since this thread has great potential-- --- - Players in the Game A 'qualifier', also known as a 'dialer', identifies victims on the lead lists who have either lost substantial amounts of money or have the potential to, by making exploratory 'no selling' calls. A 'fronter' makes the initial sale but then passes the lead on to a reloader for future repeat sales. A 'closer' is a high-pressure salesman who completes the sales. A 'no saler' is someone who solicits people who have said 'no' to a prior solicitor. A 'takeover' man will step in if a sales attempt bogs down and needs new enthusiasm and a different line to convince you.

Subject: A parallel..... From: Livia To: All Date Posted: Sat, Feb 23, 2002 at 11:59:33 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Here are some extracts from an article in the English “Daily Telegraph” about Sai Baba. To precis some of the content, the faith of a prominent follower called David Bailey was “finally crushed when students came to him alleging that they had been sexually abused by the guru…..Shocked by the allegations, Bailey severed his association with Sai Baba and began to assemble a dossier of evidence from former devotees around the world……..some of these allegations have been aired before. A former devotee, B. Premenand, has made a virtual career out of debunking Sai Baba through his publication “The Indian Sceptic”. But the charges contained in “The Findings” are of an altogether different magnitude. They include verbatim accounts of abuse from devotees in Holland, Australia, Germany and India. Conny Larsson, a well-known Swedish film actor, says that not only did Sai Baba make homosexual advances towards him, but he was also told by young male disciples of advances the guru had made on them.” To cut a long story short, someone called Glen Meloy “launched his own internet campaign to spread the allegations. The effects of this have been enormous. There has been a rash of defections from Sai Baba groups throughout the West. From other devotees, however, the response has been one of disbelief and denial. “Sai Baba,” says Bailey, “is a simple sex maniac who’s on an ego trip, after money, after power. He’s a sheer conman.” “No,” say the others, “Sai Baba is God.” “ Later in the article, a prominent devotee called Goldstein tells the parents of a boy who has been sexually abused by Sai Baba that the boy might be “delusional”. Goldstein said that he was “deeply shocked at the allegations and could not begin to understand them. “All I know in my heart is that Swami is the purist of the purist, and that everything he does is for the highest good of everybody. If other people feel something else, that’s how they feel. It’s a mystery to me, and that’s how I’m leaving it. I just know in my heart what I’ve found.” This denial – Sai Baba is God, God doesn’t do these things – was a theme that was echoed by innumerable other devotees I spoke to in America and Britain. One woman told me the allegations were “utterly inconsistent” with her experience of Sai Baba over the past 30 years. Others said they were convinced they were a result of delusions or the projections of young boys at a difficult time sexually.” Surfing the internet, I came across a site called “The Sai Critic”, established by some devotees to answer “The Findings” and to “counsel” those whose faith might be wavering in the face of the allegations. The anonymous authors of the site urge devotees to believe only their own experiences and quote an aphorism of Sai Baba’s: “When doubt walks in the front door, faith walks out the back door. Keep your doors closed.” Addressing the allegations of sexual abuse, the authors state that because “Sai Baba is a divine incarnation, one cannot attribute human or sexual motives to him, nor interpret him in the light of human sexual experience.” In other words, because Sai Baba is divine, whatever he does is beyond understanding and beyond accountability…… Among the most remarkable facets of this controversy has been the role of the internet. Even 10 years ago, it is doubtful whether the allegations against Sai Baba would have spread so far and so fast. In 1999, Sai Baba instructed his devotees that: “Swami has nothing to do with internet (sic). Not only now, even in future (sic) also. You should not indulge in such wrong activities.” But in the realm of cyberspace the accusations, the justifications and the denials continue to multiply.”…. Conny Larson has set up a support group for those claiming abuse by Sai Baba, and says he receives some 20 – 30 emails a day from victims “crying out for help. You cannot leave these people in the desert.”… “We know that many victims have been physically molested,” Glen Meloy told me, “but in reality all the former devotees have been spiritually raped because we chose to believe that this man was the highest. I certainly considered him to be the God of all gods, the creator of all creation, my friend, my everything. The intense desire I have to expose him now is directly proportionate to the amount of devotion I gave him.”…..”We completely gave away our power. And now we can look back and see what we did. You cry out and wonder, how in the world could this happen?” How does this happen? In an imperfect world, we crave some evidence of perfection, some symbol of ineluctable goodness. The guru becomes the expression of the dream.”….. A former devotee called Jeff Young “ struggled to understand what had led him to believe that an Indian guru could be God. Thinking back to his first interview (with Sai Baba) “I remember feeling peace like I had never felt before” – he now thinks he was simply deluded……”It goes so far into your mind. You ask yourself, how could millions of people be wrong? How could millions of people be tricked? I think a lot of people deny these things are happening because they’re afraid of being embarrassed. I felt that myself. We’d spent 23 years raising our family to believe in him, going upstream against a river. You think, how could I have been so wrong?”… “Some people”, say Jeff Young, “when we tell them our story, they drop Sai Baba like a rock. Some just don’t want to hear it. And others hear it all and say, well, he’s God! It’s all a test. I laughed when I heard that. Because to me, passing the test is having the courage to stand up on your own two feet and say this is not acceptable.” It’s a curious thing, said Young, but when he first told his friends and fellow devotees he was leaving Sai Baba, he had the sense, -“and I still feel that way”- “that Baba was standing over my shoulder, saying, “Good boy, you’re doing a good job.” Comments, anyone...... With love to all, Livia

Subject: Yes, and here's another From: Jim To: Livia Date Posted: Sat, Feb 23, 2002 at 12:46:12 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: French court asked to ban Paris Scientology church PARIS, Feb 22 (Reuters) - A French prosecutor asked a court on Friday to consider shutting down the Church of Scientology in the greater Paris area, saying it engaged in 'mental manipulation.' 'This is about protecting potential victims,' prosecutor Christine Forey told the court in Paris. 'I ask you to think about the penalty of dissolution due to the methods used by Scientology,' she said. Forey charged the church, whose U.S. branch counts Hollywood stars including Tom Cruise among its members, with attempted fraud, untruthful advertising, and violation of people's rights by holding computerised files on them. The case is the first time the church has been taken to court in France. The French National Assembly, or lower house of parliament, considers it a sect as distinct from a religion. The case was initiated by former members of the church, who complain they were harassed after leaving in 1999. The church argues that it is a spiritual movement and on Friday called three members -- teachers at the universities of Helsinki, California and Madrid -- as witnesses to testify that Scientology is, for them, a religion. The church in the United States, where it is recognised as a religion, said on Thursday it would submit a complaint to the United Nations against France for 'violation of human rights.' Seeking to control the activities of sects, French legislators passed a law last year making it an offence to abuse a vulnerable person through 'the exertion of heavy or repeated pressure or techniques' liable to alter his or her judgment. The law also allows courts to ban groups if individual members are convicted of such existing offences as fraud or wrongful advertising. Forey asked that the church be fined at least 300,000 euros ($263,200) if it were not ordered to close. She also requested that the group's leader in Paris, Marc Walter, 60, be given a one-year suspended prison sentence. 'The methods of Scientology, its deceitful promises of results which call for large donations of money, amount to a form of mental manipulation,' Forey told the court. 'The aim of this organisation is purely commercial.' Walter's lawyers argued on Thursday that there was nothing stopping any member from leaving the group. 'If someone doesn't want to belong to the church anymore, we are not going to hold them back, there's no sense in that,' said defence counsel Bernard Michel. The court is due to give its verdict on May 17.

Subject: The need for certainty From: Livia To: Jim Date Posted: Sat, Feb 23, 2002 at 19:52:16 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: “All I know in my heart is that Swami is the purist of the purist, and that everything he does is for the highest good of everybody. If other people feel something else, that’s how they feel. It’s a mystery to me, and that’s how I’m leaving it. I just know in my heart what I’ve found.” This denial – Sai Baba is God, God doesn’t do these things – was a theme that was echoed by innumerable other devotees I spoke to in America and Britain. One woman told me the allegations were “utterly inconsistent” with her experience of Sai Baba over the past 30 years.' I found this part of the article most apposite, as it's so very much the same attitude I've encountered from current premies. We thought the experiences and the certainty we had were so unique, so do Baba devotees, so do current premies. But the reality is so much more complex than that; the need for certainty possibly being the most driving force of all. The above devotees are expressing the same thing as the current premies when they use 'their experience' to counter allegations on EPO and here. But when you examine the experience alongside the need for certainty, it doesn't stand up to scrutiny quite so well. I had experiences, yes, but I also had doubts. I suppressed those doubts because of M's commandment to 'leave no room for doubt'. And Sai Baba devotees were also forbidden to doubt, which put them in the same place we were. I have a Sai Baba devotee close friend, who, if I repeated the sexual abuse allegations to her, would merely shrug. She is normally a highly moral person, but she won't hear a word against Sai Baba, ever. Her need for certainty is so great that she would refuse to listen, or she would come up with an utterly bizarre explanation for Sai Baba's abuse of young boys. Just like premies do, for the affairs, the X-rating, the handling of the Jagdeo affair, all of it. Perhaps the need for certainty is much greater when you are younger, hence M and Sai Baba's enormous success in attracting young devotees. The trouble is, though, that once you have taken on a world-view and belief system of such all-embracingness, and stuck with it, it becomes hard to shake it off because it so colours how you view the world. And you engage in increasingly weird mental contortions to retain the belief system that has underpinned your life. Hence the Baba devotee's last words: that even after he exited the cult he still felt Sai Baba there looking over his shoulder. How weird it all is. With love, Livia

Subject: Yeah, right on Livia [nt] From: Dermot To: Livia Date Posted: Sat, Feb 23, 2002 at 22:50:05 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: That's it in a nutshell From: Jim To: Livia Date Posted: Sat, Feb 23, 2002 at 20:36:16 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Perhaps the need for certainty is much greater when you are younger, hence M and Sai Baba's enormous success in attracting young devotees. The trouble is, though, that once you have taken on a world-view and belief system of such all-embracingness, and stuck with it, it becomes hard to shake it off because it so colours how you view the world. And you engage in increasingly weird mental contortions to retain the belief system that has underpinned your life. Exactly!