Subject: all that merchandise From: bolly shri To: All Date Posted: Tues, Mar 19, 2002 at 02:14:39 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Don't know if I can make it to rajajis sale of the century might have to make do with all these 1977 durga ji audiotapes gathering dust on a shelf. A few months ago I took some of them to a charity shop I hope no one bought them and is looking to be saved. bolly shri

Subject: Did M tell Fakiranand to attack? From: Jim To: All Date Posted: Tues, Mar 19, 2002 at 00:25:37 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: At this point, no one I know seems to know for a fact whether or not M ordered Fakiranand to attack Pat Halley. We know that he most certainly ordered him to escape the law and to that end directed Donner to whisk him out of the country. But what about the attack itself? As I think of it, I must say there are a lot of reasons to suspect that M did indeed order the attack. Here's why: 1) Someone, can't recall who, said that he was at the Detroit ashram after the attack. M had returned there. I believe there was a planned press conference that was cancelled, something like that. M was seen talking in a very animated and apparently angry tone with Fakiranand -- in Hindi. Talking about what, one might wonder? 2) Fakiranand was a sincere devotee, say all who knew him. It's beyond comprehension that he would have attacked Halley if he had any doubt at all about M's approval. Now I know that the easy theory we all accepted for so long was that Fakiranand was somehow, in his crazy, misguided fashion, trying to 'surprise' M or something, give him a great, devotional surprise the same way we used to cook him up a batch of gulab jamins. The problem with this notion, though, when you really think about it, is two-fold: one, these kinds of attacks (i.e. murder -- Halley suffered not one, not two, but SIX concussions. Can't fault hese boys for lack of trying) were far from commonplace in our cult. They weren't goolop jhamens, which we all knew M loved. This was new terrain. You'd think Fakiranand might want to do even a little reality checking. Seeing as M was right there and not off on some other continent, asking would be easy. Also -- and this is key -- recall that M very quickly ordered his security goons to leave Halley alone, to not hurt him. So, unless M said anything different, say in the car or back in the ashram, Fakiranand had his agya: leave the guy alone. That translates, roughly, into 'plese don't kill him'. But Fakiranand tried anyways. Why? 3) Let's not forget that there was another guy involved, the 25 year-old American ashram brother. What would it have taken to get him to join in this dastardly deed being that he, too, must have known that Maharaji publically ordered premies to not molest Halley? Surely, Fakiranand would have had to assure him that he had Maharaji's agya or something, don't you think? So is that something that a good devotee like Fakiranand, a guy who really did try to live as if his beloved Lord and guru was everywhere and not to be trifled with, would blithely lie about? Personally, I can't see it myself. can you? 4) We know that Maharaji swiftly arranged Fakiranand's flight from the law and out of the states. Donner's told us that he was personally directed to take care of that. Can't get much better evidence than that. Now, here too this was always accepted by us premies as just a sign of Maharaji's over-riding loyalty to his devotees, no matter how bad they'd been. He'd take care of Fakiranand however he would, possibly withdraw a little love in his meditations or something, but he wouldn't throw his devotees to the dogs of this world. But there's a problem with that theory. Someone must have explained to Maharaji the great, great legal risk he was taking acting as an accesory after the fact like that. Hell, for all he knew, Halley was going to die -- you never really know with these six-hammer blow to the head situations. Sometimes they don't turn out so well. So one can reasonably wonder just why Maharaji thought it so damn important that Fakiranand not be available for the trial process. The other guy, I understand, was sent to an ashram in Honolulu? Same difference. Why? 5) Fakiranand was sent to Europe where he continued to tour as a great saint for a few months, up to Millenium apparently. JM can confirm this, I think. Now, say he really did act on his own. Don't you think Maharaji might have been just a bit concerned about what this wild, murderous zealot might do next? Well, yes, even the most cavalier Lord of the Universe would have a little concern in that respect, no matter how little he actually cared for his devotees. Even if it was just in terms of wondering what further embarrassment he'd have to handle, he'd care. But, as we know, he did nothing apparently to control Fakiranand during this period. The guy just did his typical mahatma thing. So? So this. I infer from that that there's a good possibility that Maharaji wasn't worried about what Fakiranand might do next simply because he knew that Fakiranand had only acted on his instructions. He still had a leash on that Hound of Heaven. The leash, as always, was the fact that this dog would do nothing without agya. 6) We also know that Maharaji lied like a crook about this at the Millenium press conference where he sheepishly pretended that he was 'looking into' the situation. Well that's just a complete, obvious lie. Fakiranand was a fugitive and he, Maharaji, was supporting him, directing him, everything. So my point here, simply enough, is that, if the guy's capable of lying about this ugliness, capable of being an accessory after the fact at minimum, why shouldn't we suspect that he actually played a greater role in the most interesting part of the show? As I mentioned in a thread below when I said all this stuff to Harry, it's not as if Maharaji necessarily spelled out what he wanted done. Hey, maybe even he wasn't sure. Maybe he left it wonderfully vague a la Thomas a Beckett, just asking Fakiranand to 'visit' the guy or something. Anyway, after thinking about this again, I'm sorry, I think there's a very good chance that Maharaji really was involved in ordering the attack, not just the escape and cover-up. Anyone?

Subject: he may as well have given the order From: Jethro To: Jim Date Posted: Tues, Mar 19, 2002 at 03:51:39 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Maharaji once said '..if anything comes between you and Guru Maharaj Ji', regard it as your enemy and strike it out of the way'. This is the stuff fakiranads are made from. Whether m gave the direct order or not, he made fakiranand. (Oh, by the way, can you refresh my memory about Charles Manson. Did he actually kill anyone?)

Subject: asked Booth to shoot him From: No, but Abe Lincoln To: Jim Date Posted: Tues, Mar 19, 2002 at 02:16:43 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I heard it, it must be true.

Subject: A few words to my Friends From: Brian Smith To: All Date Posted: Mon, Mar 18, 2002 at 18:24:38 (EST) Email Address: bgsmith@teleport.com Message: Many thanks to all of you for your thoughtfulness and your support in this time of personal health crisis. Your many emails brightened my days and encouraged me fight a little harder to overcome this current health challenge. I am going to be fine and fully recover, that is after a grueling 1 year treatment involving weekly injections of interferon and twice daily ribiviran doses for a chronic precancerous liver condition aggravated by hepatitis C. A little something I picked up on one of my Viet Nam tours of duty. At this point I have about 25% liver function and the side effects of the treatment are horrendous. I won't elaborate but the cure is almost worse than the disease, and very hard on ones mind, body and emotions. Even so after my forth week on the treatment I am gaining ground and the critical elevated liver enzyme levels are dropping. Again thank you all so much for thinking of me at this time, I haven't felt well enough to respond sooner but I thought I would apprise you of my situation in case you were wondering where and how I have been lately. Keep up the good work out here everyone, you are truly performing a valuable service and I will be back to join you sooner than you think. Sincere Thanks, Brian Smith

Subject: You never call, you don't write ..... From: Jim To: Brian Smith Date Posted: Mon, Mar 18, 2002 at 21:35:42 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: God, Brian! I had no idea. If there's anything I can do for you (hey, within reason, alright?), let me know. This sucks. My best thoughts are with you. Honestly, if there's anything, if you just want to talk, anything, let me know.

Subject: A few words to my Friend From: PatC To: Brian Smith Date Posted: Mon, Mar 18, 2002 at 20:25:02 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You're in my thoughts a lot. I feel very grateful that I saw you recently and have a clear picture in my mind of your beautiful face. It's not only because you were in Nam that I love and respect you so much but that's a big part of it. You're altogether a wonderful and good man. I wish I could say ''Pranam, Mahatma Ji,'' to you without it sounding facetious. :C) You're truly a great guy.

Subject: Sincerely thanks to you Brian From: Francesca To: Brian Smith Date Posted: Mon, Mar 18, 2002 at 20:19:05 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Brian, Thanks for being there for me and many of us so many times. I figured you didn't have the energy to answer all the individual e-mails, so I am very glad to hear this news. I hear a lot of hope and strength coming from your end. Love, Francesca

Subject: Re: A few words to my Friends From: Richard To: Brian Smith Date Posted: Mon, Mar 18, 2002 at 19:25:22 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Brian, I've definitely be wondering how you are doing. Thanks for taking the time to help us feel better knowing that you are doing the best you can. I, for one, am very grateful for having a community like this for support. Many here have given me a thumbs up from time to time and it feels good to be part of it. Feel certain that you are much loved and greatly respected here. As I told you in an email, hopefully the challenges you're facing aren't getting you down. From what I know of you through your written word, you are one powerful dude and have what it takes to go yard. (For non-sportsfans, 'go yard' is baseball slang for hitting a homerun.) Your cyber pal and fellow EPO class of 2001 freshman, Richard

Subject: Re: A few words to my Friends From: Livia To: Brian Smith Date Posted: Mon, Mar 18, 2002 at 18:39:52 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dear Brian, I didn't realise you were so ill - it sounds pretty awful and I really really hope you get better asap. If it's any help I have a friend who has suffered from the same thing as you until recently, when he had some treatment. He felt terrible when going through the treatment which lasted a few weeks, but I saw him recently and he looks and says he feels fantastic, for the first time in years. It had totally worked. So all the very best to you, and hope you too are feeling fantastic in the shortest possible time - you deserve it. With love to you, Livia X

Subject: All the best Brian From: Joe To: Brian Smith Date Posted: Mon, Mar 18, 2002 at 18:39:42 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Brian, I'm glad to hear you are making improvement, but sorry you have to go through the horrendous medical treatments. All the best and you're in our thoughts. Hang in there, and I'm looking forward to hearing your great insights and sense of humor in the near future. Joe

Subject: Tee-hee! We've got the tapes.... From: Nige and Moley... To: All Date Posted: Sun, Mar 17, 2002 at 19:27:06 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks to darling Loafie's boldy going back to the dustbin (that's garbage can over the pond, maybe?) with his disinfectant and kitchen gloves, we are now sitting on a boxful of the most gloriously fuckawful bilge you can imagine. Margie vids, old and new. Dozens of the fuckers! Tee-hee, indeed... Stay tuned for illumination and further instruction... :D

Subject: You mean you've finally stopped shagging!! From: hamzen To: Nige and Moley... Date Posted: Sun, Mar 17, 2002 at 22:47:42 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: :) But watching loads of videos, how can ya do it without smashing the tv in, I wish I could.

Subject: EV UK Update - FYI just sent out From: Opie To: All Date Posted: Sun, Mar 17, 2002 at 18:20:58 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: national email: march 2002 Dear All, I understand the regional and local sales contacts are getting lots of questions locally re the future of sales and materials in the UK. I thought I would share my understanding of how things are evolving and developing. The current Bonanza Sale (click here to download 16K pdf) is the last chance we all have to purchase the current videos, audios and publications etc. This is our opportunity to stock up our own libraries of materials. You can order via the mail order brochure, or attend any of Raja ji’s 5 events in the UK where the final remaining stock is being sold (Note: introductory materials only at the London event). Events where you can purchase materials: Manchester 23rd March, 4 pm. Manchester Conference Centre Sackville Street Manchester City Centre M60 1QD Bristol 24th March, 3.30 pm. RAMADA PLAZA HOTEL (what was the Jarvis) Redcliffe Way near Temple Meads station London 25th (open introductory event), 8.00 pm until approx 9.15 pm. Kensington New Town Hall Hornton Street London W8 30th London Hindi, 6.30 pm. Westminister University College Northwick Park Watford Road Harrow, Middlesex 31st Leicester Hindi, 2 pm. Hanover International Hotel Watling Street Hinkley Leics LE10 3JA Sales as we know it will cease at the end of March 2002, both centrally from EV Ltd and at local events. Local libraries will continue for the forseeable future, and these are being updated with copies of the latest broadcasts. Discover for Yourself will continue for the foreseeable future but will be replaced in time by newer materials. 'But how will I get materials in the future' I hear people ask. Very soon we will see the beginnings of an alternative way to access new materials which will replace the production & distribution channel operated by Visions over the past years. We will keep everyone updated when this becomes live. I personally await it with great anticipation. I would also like to take the opportunity to thank, on behalf of all of us, all the volunteers around the country who have organised the sales of materials so well over the years. All the best John McClean

Subject: Built-in Demand From: Pullaver To: Opie Date Posted: Mon, Mar 18, 2002 at 10:53:02 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I imagine that cutting off the supply of videos will make premies more likely to financially support future satellite transmissions. Since premies are likely already videotaping/burning dvds of these programs for themselves it makes the actual production and sale of videos/dvds unprofitable. Nevertheless, I predict Maharaji will give agya not to copy but to download from his website these programs at continued exorbitant prices. Or at least give this 'service' to someone in the community who would download, then copy and sell the materials on demand within the community.

Subject: urravelling From: boly shri To: All Date Posted: Sun, Mar 17, 2002 at 16:01:32 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi, I have only occasional access to the internet and have found this site a real comfort and inspiration. At first reading postings I believed I was clear of the crap that cult had infused me with, that I could draw a line under that part of my life. It's not that easy is it. Although for more than a decade I haven't been the first one up for a ticket to the masters feet, I've gone along to those soulless events occassionally, and have not proclaimed to my friends 'hey guys I'm off to see the lord'. Maybe others of you have lived in the closet, like these are my premie friends and these are my normal friends, they live in darkness. But there's a weird facet of this what do you know my normal friends have trials and tribulations in their lives and so do I. We chew them over meeting on common ground and things are resolved, life goes on. In premie land you voice your unease about something there is something wrong with you. So what am I saying here that for over twenty years even though I mixed mostly with non cult people I've had this Mrs Rochester character lurking on my shoulder saying 'maybe it is because I don't meditate prostrate myself have faith whatever that all these disasters land on my doorstep. It's bollocks I know it's bollocks but everyone feels like a vulnerable failure sometimes. Reading about Andrew and the stuff from Bunny et al I think yeah but when you are feeling fragile and there's no one there to say it's okay trust yourself it will pass that's when it's difficult and those times always feel longer and lonelier. Yes I know the cult was a fake and no I won't be going back for more But thirty years of my life included the old lotus feet mindfuck however peripherally, if it had been my whole existence I think I'd be really scared about jumping those waiting to catch me might be just another joke on me. bolly shri

Subject: Is Rawat Mrs Rochester? LOL [nt] From: PatC To: boly shri Date Posted: Sun, Mar 17, 2002 at 19:08:14 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Unravelling jumpers From: Lesley To: boly shri Date Posted: Sun, Mar 17, 2002 at 16:47:07 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yup, it is a scary and difficult time, made even more difficult, as you turn to face the world, by the ridiculously high benchmark instilled by Mr Rawat, of divine love and perfection still stuck in your head. It takes time to make a clear and reasonable assessment of what you can expect from others. I think the main thing is to dig your heels in and have some faith in yourself. You, after all, have singlehandedly walked yourself to the edge of cultworld, and that took some doing, and you know you are no joke. And, anyway, if you turn around and look back, that ol cultworld is clearly unsubstantial, so you might just as well be an unravelling jumper, at least you are going to get some fun out of it!

Subject: Re: Unravelling jumpers From: Lazy H To: Lesley Date Posted: Mon, Mar 18, 2002 at 08:07:26 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Knit one, pearl one. From your Saturday night friend Mr H PS No reply requested

Subject: Re: Unravelling jumpers From: Lesley To: Lazy H Date Posted: Mon, Mar 18, 2002 at 15:00:50 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Mr H, Ta for getting my little joke, I feel nicely knitted up again now, took a while, though. Love Lesley

Subject: Narcissism From: Opie To: All Date Posted: Sun, Mar 17, 2002 at 13:57:45 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: A couple of days ago I read an article on narcissism .... Thought I would share this with you guys to pass the time of day. Prof. Roy Baumeister of Case Western Reserve Univ. in Ohio did a study of narcissism and came up with the following 'tests' - I'm an extraordinary person - I like to look at myself in the mirror - People should recognise my authority - I wish that someone would one day write my biography - I find it easy to manipulate people - I insist on getting the respect that I deserve - I like to start new fashions and fads - The world would be a better place if I ruled it - I'm more capable than other people. Also Baumeister, in the article, was quoted as saying: 'Narcissists make fairly unpleasant colleagues. They want everyone else to do the drudgery while they take the credit. They crave opportunities for self-enhancement.' 'They believe they are entitled to special treatment because they are God's gift to the world,' 'But these people will shine in times of crisis when they have an opportunity to show off. For example, they are good when a crucial presentation needs to be done.' 'These people make good first impressions. But that soon washes over when people realise that their charm is shallow and ostentatious.' --- - I wonder if we should have a collection and ask Baumeister to do a one-off study of Maharaji?! Maybe he is an expremie - he sure seems to have an excellent insight! LOL

Subject: Re: Narcissism From: Pullaver To: Opie Date Posted: Mon, Mar 18, 2002 at 11:37:22 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ChrisP e-mailed me the following a couple of days ago. Sound familiar? Narcissistic Behaviour Here's an excerpt: Malignant Self Love - Narcissism Revisited Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD) Definition, Fact Sheet and Tips NPD is one of a 'family' of personality disorders (formerly known as 'Cluster B'). Other members: Borderline PD, Antisocial PD and Histrionic PD. NPD is often diagnosed with other mental health disorders ('co-morbidity') - or with substance abuse, or impulsive and reckless behaviours ('dual diagnosis'). NPD is treated in talk therapy (psychodynamic or cognitive-behavioural). The prognosis for an adult narcissist is poor, though his adaptation to life and to others can improve with treatment. Medication is applied to side-effects and behaviours (such as mood or affect disorders and obsession-compulsion) - usually with some success. It is estimated that 0.7-1% of the general population suffer from NPD; most nacissists (75%) are men. The onset of narcissism is in infancy, childhood and early adolescence. It is commonly attributed to childhood abuse and trauma inflicted by parents, authority figures, or even peers. There is a whole range of narcissistic reactions -- from the mild, reactive and transient to the permanent personality disorder. An all-pervasive pattern of grandiosity (in fantasy or behaviour), need for admiration or adulation and lack of empathy, usually beginning by early adulthood and present in various contexts. Five (or more) of the following criteria must be met: - Feels grandiose and self-important (e.g., exaggerates achievements and talents to the point of lying, demands to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements) - Is obsessed wtih fantasies of unlimited success, fame, fearsome power or omnipotence, unequalled brilliance (the cerebral narcissist), bodily beauty or sexual performance (the somatic narcissist), or ideal, everlasting, all-conquering love or passion. - Firmly convinced that he or she is unique and, being special, can only be understood by, should only be treated by, or associate with, other special or unique, or high-status people (or institutions). - Requires excessive admiration, adulation, attention and affirmation - or, failing that, wishes to be feared and to be notorious (narcissistic supply) - Feels entitled. Expects unreasonable or special and favourable priority treatment. Demands automatic and full compliance with his or her expectations - Is 'interpersonally exploitative', i.e., uses others to achieve his or her own ends - Devoid of empathy. Is unable to unwilling to identify with or acknowledge the feelings and needs of others - Constantly envious of others or believes that they feel the same about him or her - Arrogant, haughty behaviours or attitudes coupled with rage when frustrated, contradicted, or confronted. FIVE DO's/DON'Ts - How to Avoid the Wrath of the Narcissist: - Never disagree with the narcissist or contradict him - Never offer him any intimacy - Look awed by whatever attribute matters to him (for instance: by his professional achievements or by his good looks, or by his success with women and so on) - Never remind him of life out there and if you do, connect it somehow to his sense of grandiosity - Do not make any comment, which might directly or indirectly impinge on his self-image, omnipotence, judgment, omniscience, skills, capabilities, professional record, or even omnipresence. Bad sentences start with: 'I think you overlooked... made a mistake here... you don't know... do you know... you were not here yesterday so... you cannot... you should... (perceived as rude imposition, narcissists react very badly to restrictions placed on their freedom)... I (never mention the fact that you are a separate, independent entity, narcissists regard others as extensions of their selves, their internalization processes were screwed up and they did not differentiate properly)...' You get the gist of it. THE TEN DO's - How to Make Your Narcissist Dependent on You If You INSIST on Staying With Him - Listen attentively to everything the narcissist says and agree with it all. Don't believe a word of it but let it slide as if everything is just fine, business as usual. - Personally offer something absolutely unique to the narcissist which they cannot obtain anywhere else. Also be prepared to line up future sources of primary NS for your narcissist because you will not be IT for very long, if at all. If you take over the procuring function for the narcissist, they become that much more dependent on you which makes it a bit tougher for them to pull their haughty stuff - an inevitability, in any case. - Be endlessly patient and go way out of your way to be accommodating, thus keeping the narcissistic supply flowing liberally, and keeping the peace (relatively speaking). - Be endlessly giving. This one may not be attractive to you, but it is a take it or leave it proposition. - Be absolutely emotionally and financially independent of the narcissist. Take what you need: the excitement and engulfment and refuse to get upset or hurt when the narcissist does or says something dumb, rude, or insensitive. Yelling back works really well but should be reserved for special occasions when you fear your narcissist may be on the verge of leaving you; the silent treatment is better as an ordinary response, but it must be carried out without any emotional content, more with the air of boredom adn 'I'll talk to you later, when I am good and ready, and when you are behaving in a more reasonable fashion'. - If you are a 'fixer', then focus on fixing situations, preferably before they become 'situations'. Don't for one moment delude yourself that you can FIX the narcissist - it simply will not happen. Not because they are being stubborn - they just simply can't be fixed. - If there is any fixing that can be done, it is to help your narcissist become aware of their condition, and this is VERY IMPORTANT, with no negative implications or accusations in the process at all. It is like living with a physically handicapped persona and being able to discuss, calmly, unemotionally, what the limitations and benefits of the handicap are and how the two fo you can work with these factors, rather than trying to change them. - FINALLY, and most important of all: KNOW YOURSELF. What are you getting from the relationship? Are you actually a masochist? A codependent perhaps? Why is the relationship attractive and interesting? Define for yourself what good and beneficial things you believe you are receiving in this relationship. Define the thingsi that you find harmful TO YOU. Develop strategies to minimize the harm to yourself. Don't expect that you will cognitively be able to reason with the narcissist to change who they are. You may have some limited success in getting your narcissist to tone down on the really harmful behaviours THAT AFFECT YOU, which emanate from the unchangeable WHAT the narcissist is. This can only be accomplished in a very trusting, frank and open relationship.

Subject: Re: Narcissism From: wolfie To: Pullaver Date Posted: Mon, Mar 18, 2002 at 13:07:40 (EST) Email Address: none Message: Hi, it is a new way for me to see narcissim as a cause for a lot of problems I have we have and a lot of people have. What I watched is a very obvious narcissism amongst Premies. Narcissim is a powerful surrogat for real love and you can get extremly high on narcistic emotions, it feels good but it leaves you alone and seperated again it is not basic. I think it is so much a part of our culture that we can not see that it is somekind of desease.............ciao ..wolfie

Subject: Re: Narcissism From: Pullaver To: wolfie Date Posted: Mon, Mar 18, 2002 at 16:49:51 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Interesting point Wolfie. However, I guess I see certain narcissistic traits as being a virtual description of Maharaji: - Firmly convinced that he or she is unique and, being special, can only be understood by, should only be treated by, or associate with, other special or unique, or high-status people (or institutions); - Requires excessive admiration, adulation, attention and affirmation - or, failing that, wishes to be feared and to be notorious (narcissistic supply); - Feels entitled. Expects unreasonable or special and favourable priority treatment. Demands automatic and full compliance with his or her expectations; - Is 'interpersonally exploitative', i.e., uses others to achieve his or her own ends; - Devoid of empathy. Is unable to unwilling to identify with or acknowledge the feelings and needs of others; - Constantly envious of others or believes that they feel the same about him or her; - Arrogant, haughty behaviours or attitudes coupled with rage when frustrated, contradicted, or confronted.

Subject: Sounds like Cartman in South Park. From: Scott T. To: Opie Date Posted: Sun, Mar 17, 2002 at 15:23:07 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Respect mah authoritay!

Subject: Re: Sounds like Cartman in South Park. From: cq To: Scott T. Date Posted: Mon, Mar 18, 2002 at 14:39:42 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: cartman uber alles! that's great kid www.cartmans-southpark.co.uk/ poisson.dm.unipi.it/~messina/images/icone/south_park/cartman_3.jpg

Subject: Anyone need a guru or anything? From: Jim To: All Date Posted: Sun, Mar 17, 2002 at 00:01:21 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Found this offer on the Worldwide Linkup: Paul Wayne Location: Maine - USA Message: Late in the evening of Dec 24th, 1972, in Concord, MA, the Knowledge of my inner being was revealed to me by Mahatma Rajaswar. I realized this Knowledge in the early part of 1973. I live with Truth. I'm looking for all of those ex-premies who at one time understood a wonderful experience of love and devotion in their hearts and believed in higher possibilities. If you loved arti, and if you loved the experience of being with others who had love in their hearts and were devoted to a higher truth, I would like to help you transition and move on through life beyond DLM or any other organization. Truth is still within you. If you can still believe in higher potential, I'd like to hear from you.

Subject: It's Ramakrishna all over gain.. From: Nigel To: Jim Date Posted: Sun, Mar 17, 2002 at 19:58:44 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: All that realisation and nobody's even noticed. He could try the small ads.

Subject: No but you win a prize, Jim From: Sir Dave :p To: Jim Date Posted: Sun, Mar 17, 2002 at 13:44:53 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You win a prize, Jim, for being the 3,000th visitor to the Great Wordwide Linkup in its current incarnation. (See above link) What'll it be? A free holiday for two in The Maldives or a scan of a 1972 Divine Light magazine cover? I know it's a hard choice. The Great Worldwide Linkup www.geocities.com/Athens/Ithaca/8154/

Subject: Re: Anyone need a guru or anything? From: Livia To: Jim Date Posted: Sun, Mar 17, 2002 at 12:21:06 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Nice work if you can get it, Paul, if you're reading this! With regards, Livia

Subject: How do I get rid of my Concept...2? From: Scott T. To: Jim Date Posted: Sun, Mar 17, 2002 at 00:25:36 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jim: Shit! I received Rajaswar's Knowledge in 1973! (Well, technically it was February, 1974.) I wonder if this guy is related to me? His last name is the same as my middle name! D'ya think? I started rowing an hour a day a couple of months ago, and now I can't stop. I sat on the couch all day yesterday, watching basketball, and got an enormoust headache... so I'm back putting in mileage again today. Afraid I'm addicted, and I sure need help! --Scott

Subject: Re: How do I get rid of my Concept...2? From: Jennifer To: Scott T. Date Posted: Sun, Mar 17, 2002 at 20:57:38 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Scott, What kind of boat are you rowing (or is it a machine?) Jennifer

Subject: Re: How do I get rid of my Concept...2? From: Scott T. To: Jennifer Date Posted: Mon, Mar 18, 2002 at 00:26:06 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Concept II Model C The damn thing sure doesn't float very well though. --Scott

Subject: Re: How do I get rid of my Concept...2? From: Jennifer To: Scott T. Date Posted: Mon, Mar 18, 2002 at 08:49:01 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Now I understand your title. What a great pun, considering Maharaji wanted people to get rid of their concepts.

Subject: I just got a CD from EV? From: Bryn To: All Date Posted: Sat, Mar 16, 2002 at 16:41:30 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It just thanked me for my generous contribution. 'your effort has been essential and greatly appreciated. Our heartfelt participation will always make the difference'. (Our?) It contains five trax of the most amazing bilge I have ever heard. A track called 'The Human Heart' takes the biscuit though.(human pronounced 'humin' Bless you all at EV land for thinking about me, but I left years ago now, and this is unsolicited shite. I listened to it for old times sake, and can't be arsed to describe what I now hear. Really this is transparant manipulative junk. Anybody else get one? It has thank you in 12 languages on the front. Your welcome love Bryn

Subject: Amazing/Hedwig & Angry Inch. From: Joe To: Bryn Date Posted: Mon, Mar 18, 2002 at 18:36:47 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Was 'Humin Heart' a song, or was it 'words of the speaker?' Humin Heart? Oh, I get it, I guess. Are all of the tracks songs/music? I love the 'bilge' comment. Any chance you have seen 'Hedwig and the Angry Inch?' It's a great movie, which had been a stage production in New York, with lots of great music. Anyhow, the down-on-its-luck rock band headed up by 'Hedwig' is reduced to playing at 'Bilgewaters' which is a chain of eateries with salad bars around the country, in one memorable scene their wild rock music results in a massive food fight. Anybody else see that movie? I highly recommend it. You're in for a real treat if you do. Anyhow, bilge is a great adjective for that CD, I'm sure.

Subject: Tears of laughter From: Francesca :~) To: Bryn Date Posted: Sun, Mar 17, 2002 at 14:05:50 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Bryn, Thanks for that one. I read it right before I went to bed last night and was laughing so hard I was crying. Ah, the hummin' heart. The CDs were probably left over from the fire sale, dontcha think? Even the premies weren't sure about that hummin' heart. It's all about cha-ching! --f

Subject: I got one too, what total plonkers! From: Kelly To: Bryn Date Posted: Sun, Mar 17, 2002 at 13:41:18 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'Thank you for your generous contribution- your effort has been essential and greatly appreciated. Our heartfelt participation will always make the difference.' Dear Premies, this is what your contributions are paying for. Total incompetence! When I awoke from the cult trance, more than a year ago, the first thing I did was cancel my standing order for £30 a month, and I have been quite vocal in my denunciation of the mad master on this forum, and indeed have told his minions who have phoned me and mailed me to take me off their lists ever since. All to no avail, they continue to send me glossy brochures of their sell off sales, and now this georgeous cd. The trouble is, I know that only just a year ago, I would have been so...ooo knocked out by it!! It is already hard to remember (nor do I want to) that ludicrous sense of gooey joy with which I welcomed 'new materials' such as this. You poor suckers. I listened to a bit of the cd( before I threw up) about the cagebirds who didn't realise they were free, the door was open!! Well I did, I walked! Thank you and good bye. Kelly

Subject: Re: I just got a CD from EV? From: bolly shri To: Bryn Date Posted: Sun, Mar 17, 2002 at 11:06:35 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: maybe in line with dvd k sessions your bank account is practising meditation for you I'd check it out if I were you they haven't sent me a cd and my account is never blissed out bolly shri

Subject: Re: I just got a CD from EV? From: Kev To: Bryn Date Posted: Sun, Mar 17, 2002 at 06:57:20 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I to got that crapy CD. Is this the so called propagation that M keeps going on about and EV/M keeps asking the poor premies to pay for. Down below CW suggests I return it to sender. If only I knew how to say Fuck Off in 12 different languages I would CW. Can any one help?

Subject: Ba Fongulo From: Italian To: Kev Date Posted: Sun, Mar 17, 2002 at 11:50:27 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: It's Va fan culo you Stronzo [nt] From: PatD To: Italian Date Posted: Sun, Mar 17, 2002 at 20:21:14 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Mi dispiace... From: Italian To: PatD Date Posted: Sun, Mar 17, 2002 at 20:40:37 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: pero in Napoli, le dice 'Ba Fangulo!'. Lo so, che Va fan in culo significa 'go and put it in your ass'. Ba Fangulo significa 'go and have sex with yourself'. E una cosa dieletto. Capisce? Struzo de Merda?

Subject: Non c'e un problema . In bocca lupo. [nt] From: PatD To: Italian Date Posted: Sun, Mar 17, 2002 at 21:39:29 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Huh? [nt] From: Livia To: Italian Date Posted: Sun, Mar 17, 2002 at 17:52:52 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Huh?

Subject: I just got a STCD from EV? From: Loafing Person To: Bryn Date Posted: Sun, Mar 17, 2002 at 01:31:32 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Was it truly horrible ? If it wasnt 6am I would be ringing you up and demanding that you sing 'Humin Heart' Once the motives are doubted, it is astounding how rapidly the manipulations of maharaji and EV become crystal clear. For as long as premies assume that maharaji's motives are unquestionable - the very gratitude they feel will never be seen as a carefully engineered trap. Now, although I cannot speak of Maharaji's motives with any authority, it IS valuable, I feel, for any person wishing to help maharaji in his 'work' to look at how it truly appears from the outside.. and not just the pre-conditioned aspirant perspective, but the neutral outside. And to gain any perspective at all you have to see Maharaji as a cultural blip. Keep walking....

Subject: Re: I just got a STCD from EV? From: bolly shri To: Loafing Person Date Posted: Sun, Mar 17, 2002 at 11:14:54 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: a little tip I get lots of cds from AOL never listened to any of them except when I string them through the fruit trees to keep the birds off and the breeze makes them tinkle ms honeyed words will probably do the job just as well bolly shri

Subject: Cultural bilge more like loaf From: hamzen To: Loafing Person Date Posted: Sun, Mar 17, 2002 at 07:31:44 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Have you heard his muzak? It makes most new age lift music sound good, and that's hard to believe, the guy has no shame, either that or he's completely lacking in any aesthetic awareness, except one of a sub-hallmark variety, by their fruit shall you know them indeed.

Subject: It has to be said From: Bryn To: hamzen Date Posted: Sun, Mar 17, 2002 at 08:29:22 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It pains me to say this, but (gulp) when a loyal far seeing prem I used to think about such matters thus: 'Well, he's got to appeal to the whole world y'know. So if you find it a bit low brow please bear in mind all those simple people in (name your area). Anyway its a bit better to be singing about love and fulfillment than endless sexual themes. Maharaji uses what he can to put accross his message.' AAAAARGH! Sorry about all that, it just had to be recalled and dumped. What a wierd man I was. Love Bryn

Subject: hhmmmmm From: hamzen To: Bryn Date Posted: Sun, Mar 17, 2002 at 12:27:28 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Bryn have a lot of sympathy for ya, but why can't he produce decent new age pap, it could still be pap, but decent, the guy has got NO musical talent whatsoever that I can see, in fact when it comes to creative he seems to have no talent full stop, except for some of his minimalist stage designs, and I;m being generous here. What always gets me, and got me, was if this experience is so unique, and he's supposed to be the master in this territory why does creativity dry up, just as true for premies too, where's the authenticity in that?

Subject: Re: hhmmmmm From: Livia To: hamzen Date Posted: Sun, Mar 17, 2002 at 17:59:24 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Because when you're experiencing self-Knowledge, being creative is wasting the valuable time you could be poring over Maharaji's videos, memorising them so that you are always ready to recommend the perfect video to each potential new aspirant. Nothing could be more important than that!

Subject: Re: It has to be said From: bolly shri To: Bryn Date Posted: Sun, Mar 17, 2002 at 11:18:34 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I hope you had a bucket close by when you wrote that Bryn bolly shri

Subject: Have this too From: Bryn To: Bryn Date Posted: Sun, Mar 17, 2002 at 08:37:45 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Christ and Satgurus. I remember in a written interview in 'And it is Divine or something.' someone mentioned the crucifixion of Jesus. M answered words to the effect: 'People did not respect Jesus, but I am going to be very strict about it'. Well joking aside, his statement seems revealing now. Maha clearly had no idea of the unique status of the Christ concept in the western mind. To M, Christ was a spiritual teacher, and spiritual teachers were obviously just variations on Jesuss.All gurus together. This was his unexamined assumption. Blissfully protected by this ignorance, he could confidently bring his own intentions into the same arena as those of JC., and spout freely. Where M hit paydirt, was when his naive bombast hit the ears of immature white men like me. Like Maha, I had not noticed either, the unique Christ-alone-in-history claims of the last 2000 years. But unlike his hugeness,I had been unconsciously schooled into a relationship with the Christian mesiah for-all-time notion as it pervades western culture. When I heard M,'s mighty statements ringing loud and true, I just assumed I was hearing the CHOSEN ONE. Not just one of the chosen ones, but THE chosen one, because thats the only sort of one who made such statements. We made a good team, the blind leading the blind. He was very lucky to get away with it for so long. It seems so obvious now. Teacher spouting salvation in the east does not equal teacher spouting salvation in the west. I wonder when he noticed that he was being listened to above his station over here. At the moment he looks like a man caught in mid proclamation atop Mount Olympus and trying insouciantly to scale himself down before anyone notices and starts throwing things. 'Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain! He's got nothing to do with it!!' HO HO HO. Love Bryn

Subject: crystal clear From: PatC To: Loafing Person Date Posted: Sun, Mar 17, 2002 at 03:03:26 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Was it truly horrible ? If it wasnt 6am I would be ringing you up and demanding that you sing 'Humin Heart' Once the motives are doubted, it is astounding how rapidly the manipulations of maharaji and EV become crystal clear. For as long as premies assume that maharaji's motives are unquestionable - the very gratitude they feel will never be seen as a carefully engineered trap. Now, although I cannot speak of Maharaji's motives with any authority, it IS valuable, I feel, for any person wishing to help maharaji in his 'work' to look at how it truly appears from the outside.. and not just the pre-conditioned aspirant perspective, but the neutral outside. And to gain any perspective at all you have to see Maharaji as a cultural blip. Keep walking.... --- I quoted your post just in case someone missed it not knowing who the poster was. It's a little jewel and I hope you keep it and post it to every wavering premie who arrives here.

Subject: Return to sender,Address Unknown From: CW To: Bryn Date Posted: Sat, Mar 16, 2002 at 19:54:41 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: No such number,no such name:) Please return to Sender.There is obviously a mistake. Misdirected mail. Your contribution speaks for itself.Thank you...

Subject: God, you are funny, Des.. From: Nigel To: CW Date Posted: Sun, Mar 17, 2002 at 20:14:49 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You actually like that stuff? - The squeaky boy's 'message'? How old are you? Ever heard of self-repect? You are in a cult. Wake up, for fuck's sake.

Subject: Darshan only £295 From: jethro To: All Date Posted: Sat, Mar 16, 2002 at 05:21:32 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: >>Subject: March 24th Glastonbury Dharshan >>Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 12:45:33 -0000 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> A One Day Dharshan >> >> with The Buddha of this Age >> >> His Holiness >> Tulku Buddha Maitreya Rinpoche >> In Glastonbury, U.K. >> >> Sunday March 24th, 2002 >> >> Who Is His Holiness Tulku Buddha Maitreya Rinpoche? >> >> His Holiness Tulku Buddha Maitreya Rinpoche was discovered and >>recognized beginning in 1984 by a series of Tibetan spiritual leaders as a >>Tulku, or a child born in perfection, divinely awakened and a living saint. >>In 1998 His Holiness was enthroned in a formal recognition ceremony in >>Kathmandu Nepal as Maitreya, the Buddha of this age, by Ven. Khenpo >>Khyenrab Gyatso. In November 2000 he was enthroned at the Dema Monastery in >>Kham Tibet, recognized as the western born reincarnation of the founder of >>Tibetan Buddhism, Padmasambhava Guru Rinpoche, by the Buddhist Master His >>Holiness Dema Choktrul Rinpoche. Over 120 monasteries have been turned >>over to his care and leadership and more enthronements are in preparation >>for 2001. >> >> His Holiness has been identified and acknowledged by multiple >>leaders of Tibetan Buddhism as the reincarnation of Gautama Buddha, >>Padmasambhava Guru Rinpoche, Tsong Khapa, Jesus the Christ and the Western >>born Buddha Maitreya, the Living Buddha.The designation of Rinpoche means >>that He has attained at least the level of Bodhisattva who compassionately >>reincarnates until all sentient beings attain Buddhahood. >> >> It is His Holiness' focus to spiritually and financially support the >>monasteries under his care & direction to ensure their well-being and >>healthy living. His projects include building, restoring and supporting >>monasteries worldwide. In addition, he is bringing Living Masters of Loving >>Wisdom to the United States to facilitate their work for the awakening of >>humanity and to initiate true monastic life in the United States. >> >> What is Dharshan? >> >> lDharshan means sitting in the presence of an Enlightened Being , >>who is the head of a monastery. It is an incredible opportunity to receive >>from Buddha Maitreya on all levels. >> >> lThe day is spontaneously unique. His Holiness will answer questions >>& intuitively respond to the group, therefore helping to answer & >>facilitate the teachings for that group. >> >> lBeing in the Presence of His Holiness will connect you to the merit >>of your past lives, facilitate personal and planetary healing and further >>your ability to achieve your Soul's purpose in this and future lives. >> >> lAttending Dharshan supports Buddha Maitreya's sacred projects . >>Your donation connects you to grace and Merit of sponsoring the restoration >>of monasteries & providing for new monasteries in Tibetan Buddhism. >> >> l70% of profits go to assist exiled Tibetan Buddhists & Lay people >>in need in Tibet, Nepal & India. Donations to support Buddha Maitreya's >>charities are greatly appreciated. >> >> What Will this Dharshan be About? >> >> 'The focus of teachings of this Dharshan will be the understanding >>and use of the Etheric Weaver, and the Etheric Weaver in relationship to >>the glands and the 7 Rays. >> >> How do I Prepare to Attend Dharshan? >> >> Work with Healing Tools & Sacred Music as Much as Possible. >> >> His Holiness has developed Etheric Healing Tools, Meditation >>Pyramids and Soul Therapy Music that restore the physical and subtle bodies >>.Work with these healing systems will enhance a participants receptivity >>and facilitate a process of self-healing beneficial in and of itself. >> >> Soul Therapy Meditation >> >> For Personal and Planetary Healing H.H. Tulku Buddha Maitreya >>Rinpoche has set up Worldwide Soul Therapy Meditation Rooms with room size >>Pyramids and combinations of His Etheric Healing Tools such as Vajras and >>Etheric Weavers that are Synergistically applied for Self Healing and Soul >>Integration. >> >> Plan to Wear All-white Clothing for Dharshan & >> >> Refrain from Wearing Strongly Scented Personal Products & Heavy >>Makeup. >> >> His Holiness explains that the vibrational frequency of white, >>allows each person to connect to the energy most beneficial in the moment >>for them. By wearing white and refraining from wearing heavy makeup', >>perfumes or creams with strong odors each person does not interfere with, >>or influence the other's human right to connect to who they are and not be >>influenced by other's personalities. >> >> One Official Recognition & Enthronement of >> >> H.H. Tulku Buddha Maitreya Rinpoche >> >> Took place in November 2000 >> >> By His Disciple, the Buddhist Master, >> >> His Holiness Dema Choktrul Rinpoche >> >> In his first incarnation as Namkha Lekpa His Holiness was a master >>in Sutra, Tantra, analytical meditation, debating and also composed books >>on Dharma. His attainment of spiritual realization was incredible. He flew >>riding on a drum and his footprints on the rocky mountain called >>BHAR-LHA-DAK can be seen even today. He subdued all the evil spirits that >>other Lamas failed to do and transformed them as the protectors of Buddha >>Dharma. >> >> The eighth incarnation of Namkha Lekpa known as Dema Tulku >>incarnated in this life into the lineage of Rezyin Chogyal Lingpa. He was >>born in 1968 and his parents were Tulku Rongther Aser and Gyalhor Tashi >>Lhamo. He received teachings from his older brother Sakyayate Tulku and >>then went to primary school. From the age of 10 until the age of 16 he >>carved wood and stone into statues of Buddhas, and through this activity he >>helped a thousand people attain a virtuous livelihood Between the ages of >>17 and 19 he received teachings from Kagyu Lama Nechen Gyalse, Kagyu Lama >>Tsopa Yunga, Kuncho Chudu, Naro Chodup Powa and others. >> >> From the age of 17 to the age of 29 he studied at the Sershul >>Buddhist University, and at Aridza and Dzongsar Tibetan Colleges. His >>teachers included Gelugpa Abbot Thupten Wopo, the renowned Nyingmapa Abbot >>Pentse, Sakya Lama Pema Demcho, and Gelugpa Tulku Yeshe Gyal. Under these >>holy Lamas Dema Tulku Rinpoche studied all four sects of Buddhism and from >>the age of 21 he bagan his teachings to over a hundred students. >> >> Through his diligent studies and his aptitude for the Dharma from >>previous lives, when he was 26, Dema Tulku Rinpoche received the >>meritorious rank of Abbot from Khenchen Petse, and from that time his >>teachings have gone out to many hundreds of students. >> >> In His 29th year, His Holiness Dema Choktrul Rinpoche was formally >>recognized as the reincarnation of Trungpa Rinpoche, and returned to His >>Monastery Dema Tsemo in Kham Tibet. >> >> In the year 2000 Rinpoche met and recognized his teacher from his >>previous incarnations, H.H. Tulku Buddha Maitreya Guru Rinpoche. >> >> In November of 2000 Rinpoche offered the Dema Tsemo Monastery, the >>University of the 5 Shastras, to H.H. Tulku Buddha Maitreya Rinpoche and >>held a large enthronement ceremony for the official recognition of Buddha >>Maitreya Rinpoche as the incarnation of the Buddha Maitreya and the Senior >>Rinpoche(teacher) of the University along with over 100 other tutelary >>monasteries. The enthronement was an auspicious event with more than 30,000 >>in attendance from the tutelary monasteries and the large villages of >>people which the University was established to support. >> >> >> >> >> Dharshan Practicalities >> The offering to attend the One Day Dharshan is $400 (£295) >>including non-vegetarian, wholesome meal. >> >> Like the profits generated by the sales of Buddha Maitreya's >>metatronic tools, handcrafted by volunteer Buddhist monks and nuns, >>offerings go towards projects of the Church of Shambhala Vajradhara >>Maitreya Sangha, which under the direction of HH Buddha Maitreya aims to >>manifest the liberation of all human beings, through the Externalization >>process of Christ and the Masters of Loving Wisdom. >> >> For the individual the offering, made from the heart without >>fanaticism, acknowledges the person as being One with the Buddha, >>consequently manifesting in that moment through the Buddha's blessing as a >>long process of life changes; the coming together of loved ones; the >>recapitulation of past merit and virtues from previous lives; and the >>rearrangement of all past, present and future relationships into right >>order. The person is Reborn into the Body of Christ. >> >> And, as one would offer money for blessings and the depossession of >>the evil spirit, one should also offer in order to transform the karma of >>money in their life. >> >> >> >> You Can Help Save the Living Masters & >> Heal the World >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> If you have anything to share about using His Holiness' Healing >>tools, would like to make an order for any of the Etheric Weavers, Vajras, >>Geometric Forms, Shambhala Froms, Pyramids, Soul Therapy Music, Dharshan >>Video Teachings >> >> Please Call Glastonbury - 01423 83248 >> >> >> For more information on the web www.buddhamaitreya.org and >>www.tibetfoundation.org >>

Subject: Glastonbury - NewAge Supermarket of UK From: Dave Punshon To: jethro Date Posted: Sun, Mar 17, 2002 at 04:46:14 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Oh, I thought buddhist bullshit was ok From: Jim To: jethro Date Posted: Sat, Mar 16, 2002 at 22:19:57 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Funny, I could have sworn the buddhists were a cut above all the other cults. You know ......

Subject: Buddha's in the eye of the beholder. :) From: Jack Kornfield To: Jim Date Posted: Sun, Mar 17, 2002 at 13:28:26 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: When a pickpocket meets a saint, all he sees is his pockets. Similarly, when a bullshitter meets a Buddhist, all he sees is bullshit. Is it possible your dogma was run over by your karma? Oh, never mind. Ho, ho, ho!! May the infinitely wise Atman bless you with loving-kindness as you awaken. Namaste, Jack Kornfield Never a guru, bullshitter, pickpocket or saint 'cause Buddha says so.

Subject: so a con-artist could be a Buddha? From: cq To: Jack Kornfield Date Posted: Mon, Mar 18, 2002 at 14:46:52 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Bonafide ex-flake who's cornered the market in pure corn? that's not why they call you 'Cornflake' is it, bro? Shit man, you sound flakier than Rajneesh in his pre-nitrous oxide days (though not in his post-nitrous oxide days, you dig?) Flake? Mmmmmm, gimme a Cadbury ...

Subject: Re: so a con-artist could be a Buddha? From: Kornflakes To: cq Date Posted: Mon, Mar 18, 2002 at 15:14:25 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: As the great Buddha once said in all his prescience: You'll never go broke overestimating the naiveté of human beings. Kornflakes Never a con, always a pro and Flakier than thou forever.

Subject: I guess Buddhas are the most naive of all From: cq To: Kornflakes Date Posted: Tues, Mar 19, 2002 at 03:47:50 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Namaskar, O Flaky One. You say: 'When a pickpocket meets a saint, all he sees is his pockets' if the converse is true (i.e. 'when a saint/Buddha meets a pickpocket, all he sees is his Buddha nature') - then I guess that makes the Buddha an easy mark. Strange though how most of these self-professed guru types are richer than sin. Perhaps they're just pickpockets in disguise.

Subject: That's Tibetan Buddhism From: Francesca :~) To: Jim Date Posted: Sun, Mar 17, 2002 at 02:47:54 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Very different from the stuff that Mike Finch or Richard Rogers was talking about. There are gurus in Tibetan Buddhism. But 'darshan' in Tibetan Buddhism? That's a new one on me. But don't you think he's going one better than the Maha? The focus of teachings of this Dharshan will be the understanding and use of the Etheric Weaver, and the Etheric Weaver in relationship to the glands and the 7 Rays. Also metatronic healing tools and pyramids. Expand your knick-knack collection today! ==f

Subject: Sounds like the Filament From: PatC To: Francesca :~) Date Posted: Sun, Mar 17, 2002 at 03:07:32 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ''Etheric Weaver in relationship to the glands and the 7 Rays?'' You're right - he does go one better than Ballyouguesswhat.

Subject: CAC? From: Jennifer To: All Date Posted: Fri, Mar 15, 2002 at 20:29:15 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Alright, everyone here keeps mentioning CAC and I don't fully know what they are talking about, since it happened while I was off of the forums. Would someone please explain what it is specifically, if you don't mind. Thanks

Subject: Re: CAC? From: Marianne To: Jennifer Date Posted: Fri, Mar 15, 2002 at 23:57:01 (EST) Email Address: MarianneDB@aol.com Message: Hi Jennifer. I was also one of the people targeted in the CAC attack. I'd be happy to chat with you about it, but off line. Email me if you want details. Hope you are doing well. I'm glad to see you posting here and there again. My best to your sis. Fondly, Marianne

Subject: Re: CAC? From: Jim To: Jennifer Date Posted: Fri, Mar 15, 2002 at 20:50:16 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jennifer, Here's a link where there's a brief comment on CAC and a response from us CAC targets. If you'd like to see one of the CAC profiles, email me: jimheller@shaw.ca EPO on CAC www.ex-premie.org/pages/jwcac.htm

Subject: Re: CAC? From: Jennifer To: Jim Date Posted: Sat, Mar 16, 2002 at 22:56:37 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jim I should have known it would be on EPO--duh! Thanks for the link. Jennifer

Subject: and or From: The real Salam To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, Mar 15, 2002 at 22:04:52 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: check this link, though not complete IT IS SO once there, click on CAC Incident in the top bar. Cheers, Salam, monitoring F7 in case a caca shows up.

Subject: I love Jim and Patsie From: Salam To: The real Salam Date Posted: Fri, Mar 15, 2002 at 22:33:07 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Just seeing if you're on your toes. The other Salams aren't me and this isn't Salam either. Quack

Subject: Re: I love Jim and Patsie From: To: Salam Date Posted: Sat, Mar 16, 2002 at 04:37:46 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: fuck off cat.

Subject: Please note From: Catweasel To: Date Posted: Sat, Mar 16, 2002 at 07:03:09 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Not me. Sorry,not my style.... (Tell me ,will I also be blamed for the Trade Towers eventually?)

Subject: It was me From: Sir Dave To: Catweasel Date Posted: Sat, Mar 16, 2002 at 07:17:30 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I thought my duck pic made it obvious. I am the forum duck. Quack

Subject: Re: It was me From: salam To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Sat, Mar 16, 2002 at 20:24:47 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ok, sorry CW, fuck off SD.

Subject: Question for premies From: Jim To: All Date Posted: Fri, Mar 15, 2002 at 20:14:27 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: After Mahatma Fakiranand and an ashram 'brother' tried to kill Pat Halley, DLM issued the following press release (where's Catweasel's spinning heads when we need them?): Last night Pat Halley, the notorious pie thrower, was brutally attacked by two assailants who then fled the scene. The local members of the Divine Light Mission heard of this incident and became aware that the Divine Light Mission personnel or devotees of the Guru Maharaj Ji might be involved. They notified the young Guru at his residence in L.A. The Guru Maharaj Ji immediately requested that the Divine Light Mission conduct a full investigation to see if any information concerning the parties responsible could be brought to light. As a result of this investigation, the assailants were located. They confessed their part in the incident and offered to turn themselves in. The local authorities were immediately notified and the suspected assailants are now being held in protective custody. Local and national officials of the Divine Light Mission are extremely shocked and appalled by the occurrence of this event, for the brutal action taken is in direct opposition to all that the Mission stands for and to the express wishes of the Guru Maharaj Ji. The young Guru, Himself, was amazed when the news was relayed to Him. He expressed his deepest regret of the incident and his concern for the welfare of Mr. Halley. He further extends his regards to Pat Halley's family and friends with the assurance that the Divine Light Mission wishes to help in whatever way possible to see that the persons responsible are brought to justice. ' Later, at Millenium, Maharaji gave his last press conference. In a completely embarrassing display of adolescent pique, after his lackeys were unable to deflect the question, Maharaji was forced to talk about the incident. Shifty-eyed and tight-lipped, he muttered a promise that he was 'looking into' the matter, he could assure everyone. Now, years later, we know a little more about this situation. For one, we know that it was Maharaji himself who directed Mike Donner to secrete Fakiranand out of the country, first to Canada, then to Europe. Donner has explained all that in detail. We also know that Fakiranand actually toured as a mahatma in Europe for the next few months, right up to Millenium in November. Apparently, nothing was said there to the communities that he visited about him being a fugitive at the time or about Maharaji being his accessory after the fact. Question, then: Was Maharaji lying when he told the press that he was looking into the Fakiranand matter? What do you make of all this?

Subject: Re: Question for premies From: Pauline Premie To: Jim Date Posted: Mon, Mar 18, 2002 at 18:49:13 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jim, At the time of Millennium, Maharaji was looking into lots of things, especially into bringing peace to the world, and the news media just wasn't willing to help him. Like he said in the press conference, when did the media ever do anything to helping him establish world peace? Really, it's the media's fault that the entire world doesn't have knowledge now. As for Fakiranand, he was confused and didn't meditate. He was in his mind and the Perfect Masters have always had to deal with confused people into power trips in his service. And he also has to put up with evil naysayers like you. So, in that sense you are doing a service for Maharaji. Somebody has to oppose him, and it might as well be you. It might even be happening by his grace. Ever think of that? I'm sure Maharaji did look into the Fakiranand matter and I'm sure that people around him, not him, messed up, probably with good intentions because they felt is was better to commit an aiding and abetting an attempted murdered and to wisk Fakiranand out of the country as Mr. Fakir, in the name of bringing peace and love to the world, by Maharaji's grace. It would have been so distracting to have them put on trial and stuff in Detroit, which was so full of mind. Although not a leaf moves without Maharaji, I'm sure in that case, leaves moved and Maharaji knew nothing about them. He was busy with playing chess in the Millennium Plaza Hotel in his 'master bedroom' and supervising the swan motif bathroom fixtures, there by the grace of the master. Pauline

Subject: To Livia from below From: R2 To: All Date Posted: Fri, Mar 15, 2002 at 19:09:24 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Livia I want to respond to a couple of posts from you below. In one post you said: Integrity - I have to admit my integrity is not what it was before I received Knowledge. Funny things happen to it in Maharaji's world. Making Maharaji and Knowledge one's priority, in my view, distort and corrupt one's interactions with the rest of the world - unless you lead a bit of a double life in that you give more weight to other things than Maharaji recommends, that is, as somebody so aptly pointed out above. Truly making Maharaji and Knowledge your priority leads unfortunately to a blinkered existence, in which a true sense of integrity becomes of secondary importance. I am trying to get my integrity back. You went on to “clarify” for me and Harry about your assertion that Jagdeo was still touring “under Maharaji’s agya”, and that he was seen by Kelly some time back living a life of privilege in India. What Kelly reported is a hell of a lot different than Maharaji sending Jagdeo out on tour. Was that supposed to support your conviction? As for your response to Harry, someone quoted that a “reliable source” said he was on tour. You just believe that without question??? Surely many people would notice someone as infamous as Jagdeo. Any of them come forward corroborating Abi’s story? Did anyone come up with the video you mentioned showing him? Integrity to me Livia means believing what you have seen, and NOT filling in the dots with one’s imagination. That by the way also applies to premies that support Maharaji. What I expect from people is honesty and integrity in their reasoning. What I hear from you is supposition with nothing substantive to base it on. Another thing. You deferring to Maharaji somehow responsibility for your own lack of integrity is incredulous. Hey Livia, YOU are responsible for the current condition of your character, no one else. To blame someone else for a perceived character flaw appears to me to be the epitome of what defines many ex-premies’ approach to life. IMO it is irresponsible, adolescent, and explains a lot to me of why Knowledge didn’t work for you. Regards Richard

Subject: Try this... From: Nigel To: R2 Date Posted: Mon, Mar 18, 2002 at 10:55:28 (EST) Email Address: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk Message: Integrity to me Livia means believing what you have seen, and NOT filling in the dots with one’s imagination. That by the way also applies to premies that support Maharaji. What I expect from people is honesty and integrity in their reasoning. What I hear from you is supposition with nothing substantive to base it on. How about believing eyewitness testimony, Richard? Do you do that sometimes? Often even, or just plain never? What about Mike Donner's accounts of M spiriting fakiranand out of the USA and then sending him on tour? Dettmers' detailing of the shabby hit-and-run episode? Numerous accounts of M being drunk and abusive..? His disgusting treatment of Jagdeo's victims.. etc. Not too many dots need filling in, I wouldn't think. How on earth can you come here preaching integrity whilst blindly following a guru whose own complete lack of that attribute is obvious to all but his slavering cult zombies?

Subject: To R2 and Livia and all Re:Jagdeo From: Kelly To: R2 Date Posted: Sun, Mar 17, 2002 at 14:53:09 (EST) Email Address: karen@ringrose.org.uk Message: Re: Jagdeo I spent quite a lot of time in the Delhi ashram between 1996 and 1998. There were two major events held there each year. Baisaki (or Vaisaki) which, as far as I can tell is basically a Sikh festival, however at Shri sant yog ashram, as it was called then they sort of amalgamated it with Holi which is a Hindu festival. This was generally held in early April. The other event was Hans Jayanti, held in early November (8th or 11th) to celebrate Shri Hans' birthday. My 'service' was to organise and supervise the set-up for 'Western' premies, known as Tent City. I used to arrive at the ashram a month or so before the event. I stayed in a simple but quite lovely accommodation block known then as the IOC. Very simple basic rooms with solar powered showers. (When I get my website up I'll post pictures) surrounding a courtyard with frangipani and bougainvilleas. When I arrived there were only a handful of service personel, half a dozen or so....and Mahatmaji...aka Jagdeo. Apart from his name,I didn't really remember him from the early days in London. He was accorded a lot of respect, I saw ordinary premies touch his feet and he was basically waited on hand and foot. At first I fell in with this behaviour, but increasingly it annoyed me that he demanded personal attention. For instance, there is a communal dining room, in the early days when I first got there there would be about seven of us, and we would all go to the self service counter to get our food....but not Mahatmaji. He had his food brought to the table and seemed to treat the staff as his personal servants. I never quite understood what he was doing there in the first place , since there was a separate area called Mahatma Niwas where the other mahatmas were accommodated. It was definately a priveliged position which he exploited to the full. All the staff were at his beck and call and I have told the story before of seeing one of the young housekeeping girls ( aged 15 or16) crying because she did not want to go to Mahatmaji's room. This memory has haunted me in the light of Susan's and Abi's experiences and I have endeavored to shed some light on it by contacting and informing the then manager of the ashram Deepak Bhandari. Deepak told me that Jagdeo had been challenged and had denied all allegations against him but had left the ashram of his own accord and gone back to his family somewhere in India. This was (at a guess) early 1999. He has definitely not toured since then, and had not toured for years prior to that. Although he told me that he sometimes spoke at events in Delhi. The stories of him touring in Africa in the last few years were based on a misunderstanding and not true. Where he is now, I don't know, but I am sure he is in India and I am sure that M and the Indian honchos do know where he is and how to find him. They just choose not to. Or they choose not to tell. Karen Ringrose

Subject: Rawat's obligations From: PatD To: Kelly Date Posted: Sun, Mar 17, 2002 at 16:50:09 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Isn't it true that Jagdeo,along with Sampuranand(lately deceased on a visit to London) were the people who took him under their wing after his father died? So he owes him... Given that Rawat's life has been dedicated to the fulfilment of his own whims & aspirations,without any regard to those of the willing slaves he recruited,why should he care about allegations against a man whom he might consider a favourite uncle. I'd say he has to look after Jagdeo regardless. The edifice is built on proximity to the living lord,knock out an important brick & who knows what might happen. All the best: Pat Dorrity

Subject: Re: integrity From: Livia To: R2 Date Posted: Sun, Mar 17, 2002 at 12:52:02 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Richard, about integrity, and my admitted growing lack of it in Maharaji's world. You commented on this in a somewhat contemptuous manner; you also implied that my premie friends must be some sort of low-life if they also displayed a lack of integrity. I am only talking about what I saw, Richard, over many years in the premie world, in my home town, in London and in the USA. Without naming names, I saw people very high up in the Mission or Elan Vital doing things they wouldn't want the community at large to know about, whilst pontificating about divine bliss. Saw countless, countless premies having affairs with each other's partners without a thought as to the pain it would cause. I saw premies betraying each other and doing each other down in numerous ways. I saw a lot of premies behaving with a lot less integrity than most people I know without Knowledge. This isn't to say that I didn't see premies performing acts of incredible kindness too, of course I did, but this didn't seem to be particularly a result of the experience of Knowledge. In fact, the premies with apparently the strongest experience of Knowledge and the most devotion often seemed to me to be the coldest and the most wrapped up in themselves. Richard, to observe that one's character took a dive whilst following a particular path isn't to blame Maharaji. I should have seen what was happening and remained true to my own better instincts. I made the choice to keep following that path, and I take responsibility for that to a certain extent. But you have to remember that that path was portrayed as the one true path, the road to enlightenment and divine love, so for many people it isn't exactly an easy path to leave. It is now obvious to me that the practice of Knowledge does not in itself lead to better character, and surely this is something that premies should question. I quoted from an utterance of Shri Hans Ji a few days ago and you still haven't given me your comments. They would be appreciated, as I have asked you for them more than once. You also failed to respond when I asked you down below if there was anything Maharaji could do that would cause you to doubt him. Where, in other words, do you draw the line? With regards, Livia

Subject: Re: integrity From: Harry To: Livia Date Posted: Sun, Mar 17, 2002 at 18:18:56 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Livia, Speaking of integrity, you've posted, as fact, a bunch of stuff thats patently untrue. You've repeated it, as gospel, a few times. Your friend Kelly completely contradicts you above. What you wrote about Maharaji 'encouraging' Fakirinand to violence is equally untrue. In light of that, I hope you'll respond to the questions I asked of you below, which you 'disappeared' before answering. It's time this mindless repetition of hurtful, innacurate bullshit ceases, by those who claim integrity. 'Can you give me any reason why, Harry, this is more likely to be untrue than true?' Livia, I certainly hope this isn't the way you discern the truth in other areas of your life! It's beyond belief to me that you would apply such a weak standard to Maharaji, who presumably meant a great deal to you for a part of your life. Would you so easily swallow something about a friend or relative? God, I hope not. This is on the level of, 'a reliable source told me that Richard Gere was treated in the emergency room for felching a gerbil!' By the way, that was believed in the U.S. by thousands of people and was passed around as the truth. I know Deepak, who's a lovely, honorable Nepali guy who runs the ashram in India. He confronted Jagdeo after hearing the horrible charges against him, 20 years after the fact like everyone else, whereupon Jagdeo denied it and burst into tears. He left there (that was '99, I believe) and hasn't returned since. Do you think pedophilia is a badge of honor in India? He was publically shamed and most certainly has not been 'on assignment.' Did it ever occur to you that the 'reliable sources' you've been so eager to believe, aren't reliable at all? Are you that committed to trashing Maharaji based on hearsay or are you this gullible in general? Do you ever ask yourself, 'who am I listening to, anyway?' 'Does this match what I felt?' 'Do the same bits of crap, repeated x number of times, magically assume reality after a certain number of repetitions?' Are you aspiring to achieve the world-view and state of being of Jim Heller, Joe Whalen or Michael Dettmers? Is anyone? Seriously? Do you really think about who and what you're listening to? Be honest, you'd rather believe this stuff to support your current view, however you arrived there. If you were a friend, I'd suggest you take a long look at that. Be well.

Subject: Re: integrity From: Livia To: Harry Date Posted: Mon, Mar 18, 2002 at 09:03:53 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Harry, I now accept that the reality of what happened to Jagdeo after he was confronted about paedophilia was that he disappeared to his village. Thank goodness for that. Thank goodness he didn't go touring in Africa. However, something about the whole thing still stinks and I don't understand why you fail to see this. Apparently allegations were made about him years ago in Miami and nothing was done. Even if Maharaji didn't get to hear about it himself at that time, why did nobody else act? And years later, when Maharaji pesumably did get to hear about it, why has he still not done the right thing? If an old lady falls down on the street in front of you, there is a right thing to do. You bend down, see if the person is OK, administer help if you can, get help if you can't. I don't think anyone would argue with this. There are certain situations that call out for a certain, ethical response and that is one of them. Another situation that calls out for a certain ethical response is when someone with a position of influence in an organisation commits a sexual offence against a/some minor/s. The leader of that organisation then has an ethical duty to act immediately in a particular way. Anything less than that is less than ethical. As soon as Maharaji heard about Jagdeo's activities, a straightforward announcement should have been made to all the premies. Other victims should have been encouraged to come forward, apologies and/or compensation offered. And first of all, of course, Jagdeo should have been handed over to the authorities for questioning and trial. Deepak, who I also remember as seeming to be a decent sort of guy, did the right thing in confronting Jagdeo. But what happened? He denied it and slunk off. This must leave the victims with a sense of powerless outrage, and surely they deserve better. Quite honestly, if I had received a letter from Elan Vital such as the one I described above, once the intial shock about one of Maharaji's instructors being a peodophile had died down, I would have been impressed at their honest and courageous way of dealing with it. I would have thought no less of Maharaji, as there are peodophiles in every walk of life and I suppose it was never beyond the bounds of possibility that an instructor could be one and get away with it for years. But in the event, nothing was said at all, exactly in the manner of the Catholic Church or many other organisations who show moral weakness in their eagerness to cover up such things. In their attempt to bury the issue, it merely shows up a lack of moral fibre, and makes them look bad, very bad. I don't know, Harry, why you fail to see this. In answer to your points, of course I don't go around believing the worst of people on the basis of rumour and hearsay. To be totally honest, the lack of any statement from EV regarding Jagdeo, and this obvious desperate wish to bury the issue speaks volumes in itself, and immediately told me there's something very wrong at the heart of the organisation. It made me feel quite sick, and when I first realised what had happened, went around in a sort of daze of disbelief and shock that EV, and I'm afraid Maharaji by implication, could be so ethically wrong. I've got to go now but will add to this later. With regards, Livia

Subject: addendum From: Livia To: Livia Date Posted: Mon, Mar 18, 2002 at 18:31:15 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Do you ever ask yourself, 'who am I listening to, anyway?' 'Does this match what I felt?' 'Do the same bits of crap, repeated x number of times, magically assume reality after a certain number of repetitions?' Harry, do you ask yourself who you are listening to when you hear Maharaji blaming mahatmas for the concepts we all imbibed to the effect that Maharaji was the Lord? Does his playing down of who he originally said he was match what you felt at that time? And does Maharaji's current rewriting of history, repeated x number of times, magically assume reality after a certain amount of repetitions? I spoke to a premie recently, Harry, who told me she can't remember Maharaji ever implying he was the Lord. But she was there when he did - I remember, because I was there too! This must be the effect of listening to x amount of repetition of revisionist propoganda. Of course I had a profound experience back then, and still do when I meditate (the habit's gone too deep to break). But I also know cover-ups and revisionist lies when I see them, and so should you or anyone with a modicum of integrity or discrimination. Your apparent reluctance to question what exactly is going on should make you ask certain questions of yourself. Think about it. With regards, Livia

Subject: Rhea Dendom From: Harry To: Livia Date Posted: Mon, Mar 18, 2002 at 20:18:05 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Harry, do you ask yourself who you are listening to when you hear Maharaji blaming mahatmas for the concepts we all imbibed In fact Livia, a large amount of the Indian dressing around the presentation of knowledge & Maharaji DID come from the mahatmas, Mata ji, etc., including how to behave, how to act towards and address Maharaji and some add-ons to the techniques, as well. You don't remember that? The first time I tried to adapt that mode of behavior in front of him, he laughed right in my face and made it clear I should be myself. Thank God I learned that early on, as I've had a great time with him ever since. Did you ever hear Maharaji say, 'this is how you should talk to each other...this is what you should say when you're doing laundry...this is what you should feel when blah, blah, blah?' Nope. A LOT of what people were doing was definitely transplanted Hindu behavior. I've heard Maharaji laugh many times at his own missteps and learning process in the completely unprecedented, uncharted waters of bringing knowledge to the Western world. But all along, even at 13, he was saying, 'don't believe me, have your own experience' and separating, albeit sometimes more successfully than others, the core from whatever the trappings of the time were. He's been cleaning the curry off of that cupcake for 30 years. Does his playing down of who he originally said he was match what you felt at that time? He matches what I felt at that time. Knowledge matches what I felt at that time. Not the cross-cultural grafting, individual power struggles or bureaucratic fuck-ups. How many js he has in his name or how much he downplays Mala dances from 24 years ago have never been the crux of anything for me. Is he playing down implications? Yes, he has been for a long time. Does that change the reality of anything? Not to me. But I also know cover-ups and revisionist lies when I see them, and so should you or anyone with a modicum of integrity or discrimination. Your apparent reluctance to question what exactly is going on should make you ask certain questions of yourself. Livia, for someone who's as gifted as you say you are for spotting revisionist lies, how do you explain the fact that you have been doing that exact thing, repeatedly? This is the original question I posed to you which you still haven't answered, instead, taking the classic politician's tack of answering with a different question. How about the bizarre, accepted portrait on this page of Maharaji as some kind of cross between Dean Martin & David Lee Roth, shooting bunnies in his bathrobe with a gallon of booze in one hand and an Army of crying, abused blondes following him? Any chance THAT could be a classic, revisionist lie? Hmmm? And people, good people, believe it! You have been repeating completely false, revisionist bullshit (Jagdeo is on tour, Maharaji & Fakiranand conspiring) and you haven't yet copped to it for one moment. You have been repeating and therefore spreading fraudulent information. How does that square with your grandiose proclamations of integrity? Do YOU question the 'information' you read here? It doesn't look like it. As for me and your assumption that I haven't asked any questions, how would have any way of knowing that? Speaking of a 'modicum of discrimination', one thing's for sure: I don't need to read someone else's doubts and opinions on an Internet bulletin board to find out how I feel about Maharaji, any more than I would read gossip to see how I feel about my wife, old friend or mother. I've seen way more than enough of Maharaji to have my essential questions answered to my abiding satisfaction. Perhaps you feel the same way and have reached a different conclusion. C'est la vie! regards right back atcha, Harry

Subject: How do you know this, Harry? From: Jim To: Harry Date Posted: Mon, Mar 18, 2002 at 23:41:31 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You have been repeating completely false, revisionist bullshit (Jagdeo is on tour, Maharaji & Fakiranand conspiring) and you haven't yet copped to it for one moment. How do you know that M didn't conspire with Fakiranand? We know, at minimum, that he conspired with him after the fact. M conspired with him to escape the states and run from the law. Surely, you don't question that, do you? So did M also actually give his divine agya to Fakiranand to attack Halley in the first place? I don't know. Do you? I think someone actually reported that they saw Maharaji talking angrily with Fakiranand back at the Detroit ashram after the attack. If that's correct, what do you think they were talking about? The weather? How well the Tigers were doing that summer? Face it, we already know that Fakiranand was such a guru freak he would never have done anything like that to Halley if he didn't at minimum think M would approve. Okay, maybe he got that terribly wrong. On the other hand, maybe he got it just right. After all, we also know that M lied about this incident to the press at Millenium. So, if he's capable of being an accessory after the fact, as he was, if he's capable of keeping Fakiranand working as a mahatma -- see, here's another thing: say Fakiranand acted completely on his own and M was truly surprised by his crazy, murderous devotee. Wouldn't that have made M mistrust Fakiranand so greatly that he wouldn't dream of allowing him to continue his service? But what if, on the other hand, Fakiranand was only following orders? See? Also, let's not forget that other guy, the American ashram premie. Do you think he would have gone along on this mission without some assurance from Fakiranand that he had agya? After all, don't forget that, publically, M had made a big point of telling his security goons at the Pie Throwing Ceremony not to hurt Halley. That premie, then, would have required some special proof that what M 'really' wanted was to have Halley 'visited', don't you think? You know, it's not as if it's all or nothing here. M might well have told Fakiranand to visit the guy, shake him up a bit, whatever. He didn't have to necessarily spell it out, even if he was behind the attack. Anyway, lots to ponder. I'm certainly up in the air about my suspicions, simply based on the facts we do know. How, then, are you able to say that you know for a fact that M had nothing to do with the attack? Beside wishful thinking, I mean.

Subject: ?'s for Harry or R2.... From: fly on wall To: Harry Date Posted: Mon, Mar 18, 2002 at 22:21:48 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Regarding Jagdeo, I was wondering if either of you might have some appropriate comment about: 1-According to Abi, attorneys representing maharaji recently told her that maharaji was 'briefed' on the jagdeo affair 2 or 3 years ago, by THEM! At the same time, maharaji himself tells Abi's father that he never had heard of the jagdeo stuff until now. Question is, who is lying here? Would the loyal premies lie about their master? Or is the master lying? 2-In an open letter to EV that is on the epo site, one ex-premie writes to EV that he knows personally of circumstantial evidence about jagdeo's involvement with children in the unity schools. He asks them if they would like to know more about it. They don't reply. He asks them again in a 2nd letter. They don't reply. Is this OK with you? Do you understand how serious this really is? Do you understand what a serious crime it is to participate in any way in the covering up of any information relating to this? Does any of this bother you? Do you see how this is all part of a recurring pattern in which premies and maharaji will lie about anything, in order to protect the work of the master? I don't think premies can fully understand and feel things like this until they have left the blissful haze of the master. They pay an enormously high price to protect their master:they sell their character to protect someone who tells them he doesn't even want to know their name.... This is why when someone leaves maharaji and the bliss racket, they suddenly feel so free...they don't have to sell themselves anymore and are free to be themselves....

Subject: Re: ?'s for Harry or R2.... From: Fly flying free To: fly on wall Date Posted: Mon, Mar 18, 2002 at 22:59:28 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You self importantly opine... 'This is why when someone leaves maharaji and the bliss racket, they suddenly feel so free...they don't have to sell themselves anymore and are free to be themselves....' What utter bollocks. You don't sound in the least bit free - not by the wildest stretch of the imagination. Check out the questions below and then tell us how the person who asked them could possibly be free. 'Is this OK with you? Do you understand how serious this really is? Do you understand what a serious crime it is to participate in any way in the covering up of any information relating to this? Does any of this bother you? ' One for you - Do you understand how embarrassingly seriously you take yourself? If that's freedom - God bless the eternal prison.

Subject: Thanks Livia, so clear (nt) From: Joe To: Livia Date Posted: Mon, Mar 18, 2002 at 19:06:22 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: nt

Subject: Well said Livia, great post. nt From: Kelly To: Livia Date Posted: Mon, Mar 18, 2002 at 12:59:24 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: seconded. BEST OF FORUM in fact (nt) From: cq To: Kelly Date Posted: Mon, Mar 18, 2002 at 13:39:58 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: seconded. BEST OF FORUM in fact (nt) JHB please note (or is J-M still i/c of the best-ofs?)

Subject: Through the Looking glass From: PatD To: Harry Date Posted: Sun, Mar 17, 2002 at 21:22:55 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Do you ever ask yourself, 'who am I listening to, anyway?' 'Does this match what I felt?' 'Do the same bits of crap, repeated x number of times, magically assume reality after a certain number of repetitions?' Can't resist pointing out that that is a description of Rawat's speeches,looked at from a different point of view to yours of course. I'd suggest you take a long look at yourself. Be honest, you'd rather believe this stuff to support your current view, however you arrived there. I can't speak for anyone else but in my case it was 'this stuff' that caused me to arrive at my current view.Which is that the Bollixshwar is not worthy to kiss my feet,& that he conned me into kissing his. When you, or anyone, or Himself,or his expensive lawyers, refute the allegations made against him,then maybe I'll think again. In the meantime, why do you guys always come out of the woodwork whenever an unusually eloquent poster shows up?

Subject: 'Why do you guys always come out From: That's easy To: PatD Date Posted: Sun, Mar 17, 2002 at 22:45:53 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: of the woodwork whenever an unusually eloquent poster shows up?' Because the rest of you non stop bilge pumps aren't worth wasting more than say, one sentence on?

Subject: The weary and the weak From: PatD To: R2 Date Posted: Sat, Mar 16, 2002 at 21:48:52 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: What place do they have in the brave new world? To blame someone else for a perceived character flaw appears to me to be the epitome of what defines many ex-premies’ approach to life. IMO it is irresponsible, adolescent, and explains a lot to me of why Knowledge didn’t work for you. I,along with thousands of others & I'm sure your own good self once upon a time,believed that K would eventually burn off the flaws leaving oneself 'god realised'. In a state of pure consciousness where petty personality is transcended,where all is love & the Kingdom of Heaven is here. I know there's been a lot of water under the bridge since those days,Rawat is no longer God Incarnate & all that,but for you to suggest that K doesn't work because the recipient isn't good enough is breathtaking cheek. What's the point of it if you have to be perfect to begin with? You aren't really talking about the meditation are you. You're talking about an internal relationship with with a ghost. The real person PPS Rawat,lives high on the hog,doesn't give a fuck about you,so why do you give him the time of day? Beats me Richard.

Subject: Re: The weary and the weak From: Livia To: PatD Date Posted: Sun, Mar 17, 2002 at 11:55:35 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Sweetie, thanks XXX I'm beginning to feel a bit beleaguered but have plenty more to say! Love, Livia

Subject: Re disappearing premies From: Lesley To: Livia Date Posted: Sun, Mar 17, 2002 at 16:17:16 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Livia, I just scrolled into inactive and saw your note to me. I was referring to R2, rather than 'John Smith', not that it makes much difference, the point is the same. My first thought was that R2 was one of the regulars, but, as I said, you can't be certain, and so when he came back for more with your soul v humanity thread, I copied off his post and took some time to write a reply....no response. There are indications that R2 is a regular (if you are not, R2, may I suggest you write a little post with something about yourself). I sometimes think these new personas are developed out of a genuine desire to understand, but then you see the same hardboiled attitude coming out, the same refusal to engage in a real dialogue, the same stuck in the mud, round and round the mulberry bush thinking. I have said this before, and I will say it again. If you want to stay with your Master, fine, that's your prerogative, but you should thank EPO and the forum members here for being able to help those premies who aren't happy in the cult. You guys, after all, are completely incapable of being any use to a premie when they reach their deepest darkest hour, all you can do is bully them. How about it, chaps, rather than messing around on here, creating an atmosphere where a new poster, at their time of greatest need, gets treated with suspicion, you leave us alone. Or do you really not care how much pain another human being is in? Sorry, Livia, started off talking to you, and then somehow shifted gear, love Lesley.

Subject: Re: To Livia from below From: Livia To: R2 Date Posted: Sat, Mar 16, 2002 at 08:57:57 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Richard, to start with the points about Jagdeo; I posed Kelly's post describing Jagdeo's lifestyle in order to illustrate that he has not, as I think Glen Whittaker once implied in a letter To Anth Ginn, (I can easily find the reference if you're interested) gone off to live in obscurity in a village in India. He is obviously still living in the style to which he was previously accustomed. Something doesn't doesn't seem quite right about this, in light of what he appears to have done, does it? Or don't you agree? As for the quote about the reliable source saying he was on tour in Africa and that a video had been seen of him in Africa, I said myself that it wouldn't stand up in a court of law as evidence. However, the lengths that Maharji's organisation have gone to cover this whole thing up would tend to be in keeping with the possibility that it may well turn out to be true, don't you think? I don't think you'd have to be a rocket scientist to draw this inference. For example, did you know that Jonathan Cainer, an English premie astrologer, moved his services from the Daily Mail to the Daily Express in order to prevent the Express from publishing a story about Jagdeo? If the evidence came out that Jagdeo had indeed been in Africa on tour and still had access to children, how would you feel then? And you haven't exactly said what you feel about him living his old life as a mahatma in Delhi, have you? What do you feel about it, incidentally? I have to go now, but will post later about the rest of your points. With regards, Livia

Subject: To Forum God From: OK To: All Date Posted: Fri, Mar 15, 2002 at 19:08:46 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: whoever you are, this is the real Salam writing. As you know I don't post here, let alone speak about Islam. that being the case I want to say that some idiot is using my name to post [see thread below on Islam]. I haven't read what is being said but I thought to tell you that this is being done on Sat-Chit forum too. Am not sue what the reasons are, but I do appreciate it if you can remove the thread, Salam@Rawatsucks

Subject: Also From: OK To: OK Date Posted: Fri, Mar 15, 2002 at 19:17:17 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I scrolled down the threads and whoever this dickhead is, he is posting under my name all over the place. Last time I said anything was few weeks ago so you may want to delete anything you see unser my name. I have switched to another browser [Opera] as you notice, as some people know that I use it, this to let you know, otherwise I can e-mail you, Salam

Subject: spam attack! **** is back? From: gerry To: OK Date Posted: Fri, Mar 15, 2002 at 21:01:06 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I knew these troll post weren't you Salam. Just some juvenile. I'll clean up the mess.

Subject: ps From: OK To: gerry Date Posted: Fri, Mar 15, 2002 at 22:07:00 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: note that whoever is doing it is using Win NT. Djouro has Win NT.

Subject: Journey Entry Fifth Installment From: Steve Quint To: All Date Posted: Fri, Mar 15, 2002 at 18:35:49 (EST) Email Address: the_avenger55@hotmail.com Message: In spring 1979 I was asked to go to Toronto to do the year-end audit, for free of course. This is hard to write about. (I'm recovering from surgery, but I feel I have to get it out.) I left a good job to the dismay of my boss, who wouldn't take me back later. There was more love in that small C.A. firm than in all of D.L.M., believe me. This set back my Chartered Accountant articling by years. I stayed at the ashram and was argued over from the start. The ashram had a restaurant and the accountant and chief cook argued over whether I had to do regular service in the restaurant as all other ashram residents do. Then Anne Johnson argues that I shouldn't be there. The good DLM accountant whose name escapes me argues that Gary Ockenden, president of DLM Canada, knows of and has approved my being there. I was supposed to go to the conference after the spring event in Denver. Anyway, I became unstable mentally and could not do the work. The Montreal books, which I was in charge of were off by two or three dollars, but this wasn't good enough. I was asked to find the imbalance. We're talking of $250,000 annual donations approximately. My assistant in Montreal, who I felt obliged to keep on as this was 'service' and how could I think to deprive someone of 'service', had the worst handwriting I'd ever seen, and I hadn't been stringent enough in getting him to balance his work. Now this was coming back to haunt me. I was not allowed to go to the conference and left with the shame and confusion of being told that another premie agreed to do the year-end audit for money - so my problems were to cost DLM money - I'm sure I was told this more than once. Why was I not offered money? Don't ask, because I don't know. In Denver I went to the local premie doctor, John or whatever his name was, and told him my problems. His prescription - 'Pray to Guru Maharaj Ji'. Back in Montreal, with no job and feeling devastated, I occupied myself pulling weeds in the ashram garden and other such things.I started meditating several hours at a time, and started seeing intense light. I must have heard voices too, because I jumped off the second floor balcony of my apartment, not once, but five times. The fifth time I balked, tried to stop myself in mid activity, and ended up breaking some bones and ending up in a hospital, mostly the psychiatric ward, for quite a while. Georges Legere, who had been my supervisor, never visited me. Only one premie, who I thoght strange, did, as well as one visit from an instructor trainee and the community coordinator, who gave me a headache while lecturing me that 'there is no such thing as inner agya'.

Subject: Re: Journey Entry Fifth Installment From: bill To: Steve Quint Date Posted: Sun, Mar 17, 2002 at 01:20:32 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks for your Entries Steve, It really is too bad someone distracted you from your beautiful life and invited you into this rawat family nightmare. I read you and I think your a great guy Steve:)

Subject: Letter To Guru Maharaj Ji From: Steve Quint To: Steve Quint Date Posted: Fri, Mar 15, 2002 at 18:58:24 (EST) Email Address: the_avenger55@hotmail.com Message: Sept. 13, 1983 Greetings Guru MaharajJi: I am writing to tell you of an extremely urgent matter which only you can be of assistance in. My brother Steven Quint has been a premie for a number of years. This letter concerns him. The problem is Guru Maharaj Ji is that he is extremely troubled and I fear for his life! Guru Maharaj Ji, he feels that you are testing him and punishing him for not being a strong enough devotee. Four years ago he believed that in a test of faith, You asked him to jump off a second floor balcony. He jumped 3 times, believing that he injured himself only on the third jump when he doubted his faith and grabbed on to the railing as he fell. He recovered from that but has always since felt that he failed You. He feels that You have a plan for him which he does not understand. Lately he has not been functioning properly, going into intense fits of rage and depressions. His behaviour was so erratic that he has been admitted to a psychiatric hospital. He very firmly believes that being in the hospital will be of no help and he refuses to talk with any therapist. He believes that You are the only one who can help him. Guru Maharaj Ji, I do not believe that You would be testing and punishing one of Your devotees, but Steven firmly does and will not allow himself to get well until he sees otherwise. Guru Maharaj Ji, you are the only one who can help! I believe that he has spoken to initiators in the past but again feels that they do not understand him. He needsto hear from You. He will not allow anyone to reach him in his tormented state as he feels he is in Your hands. Guru Maharaj Ji, please help to save my brother's life. Please write to him. Thank you for understanding. Very Respectfully Yours Harriet Quint sister of: Steve Quint 5681 Mclynn Ave. Montreal Quebec H3X 2P9 CANADA (514) 737-0706 P.S. Steven is presently admitted at the Jewish General Hospital (514) 342-3111 D

Subject: Response Never Received From: Steve Quint To: Steve Quint Date Posted: Fri, Mar 15, 2002 at 19:53:11 (EST) Email Address: the_avenger55@hotmail.com Message: My sister was already an ex by 1979 and, as for me, I haven't practiced the four techniques since 1979, stopped going to programs for four years but resumed in the the mid 1980's, and became the most ardent attendee for quite a while, still expecting until fairly recently to get something out of the speeches. I only pray that, with another difficult time close at hand, I finally learn some lessons and find a way to move forward with my life. Your prayers are appreciated, regardless of who your god is or who you pray to. Steve

Subject: Of Course I Meant Response To The Letter From: Steve Quint To: Steve Quint Date Posted: Sat, Mar 16, 2002 at 12:48:13 (EST) Email Address: the_avenger55@hotmail.com Message: Your responses are very much appreciated. Steve

Subject: Response Received From: Richard To: Steve Quint Date Posted: Sat, Mar 16, 2002 at 12:26:55 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Steve, Thanks for having the tremendous courage to tell us about your very challenging life with M&K. Your sister's plea to GMJ on your behalf is incredibly touching. You are so fortunate to have such a loving family member who would try to communicate with M on your behalf. I would like to respectfully suggest that her reaction to your dire situation reveals much of her humanity and proves her to be the friend that GMJ never would be. She interceded for your health in a way that GMJ couldn't be bothered to. Her actions were admirable and motivated by love for you. Wonderful. I believe that the honesty and fearlessness you are now displaying is a response from your own inner authority to the challenges you face. In a way, the response to your own cry for help has been received in the form of courage. All the best to you. Richard

Subject: Re: Response Received From: cq To: Richard Date Posted: Sat, Mar 16, 2002 at 13:38:43 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: yes, it must take a lot of courage to share, as Steve has done, the details of how much his involvement with the former 'Guru' Maharaji/Ji led him into areas that few of us have the ... courage? or is it stupidity? to go. To set himself up as the 'Lord of the Universe', God re-incarnate, the 'one who sent Jesus to this Earth' (though you won't find that quoted anywhere in DLM/EV's literature, though it was part of the belief-system that was touted to premies at the time) was a tactic that M took on at his own risk. Unfortunately the risks of testing that belief were taken on by the likes of Steve, who, rightly or wrongly, took his own faith in M to limits that many of us would once have admired as being an example of pure devotion. Unfortunately for Steve, who was led to believe that M was God incarnate, the testing resulted in a realisation that 'God incarnate' is a very dangerous claim for anyone to make. M apparently denies he ever made that claim. Which must make Steve's trauma and subsequent illness all the more difficult to deal with. I have a lot of respect for people who are brave enough to challenge their own belief systems, but when that belief-system ITSELF encourages people to put their own lives into jeopardy, as Steve has witnessed (and how many times had we premies been told the story of how a TRUE premie should be prepared to cut off their own head, if that was what the guru wanted), then surely SOME responsibility has to be 'laid at the feet' of the one making those claims. M, however, has done nothing but attempt to deny his involvement with the doctrines that were promoted in his name - the self-same doctrines that led people like Steve to injure himself, thinking that his 'master' was in fact able to prevent him from injury. But, to be fair, Steve has some responsibility in this too. 'Thou shalt not test the Lord thy God' being a quote which springs to mind. But M was NOT the Lord, his God. Yet, or maybe because of this, Steve saw fit to test him. The results of that test will remain with Steve probably for the rest of his life. Yet doesn't the one who led him to that result have a part to play in all this? To be fair, Steve's

Subject: Oh come on, Chris! From: Jim To: cq Date Posted: Sat, Mar 16, 2002 at 18:02:27 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: God you say some dumb things sometimes! Responsibility? Obviously, Steve was nuts then. Sheesh! The key thing here is that Maharaji had to know that a whole range of people were answering his siren song, including mentally unstable ones. His refusal to respond to Steve's sister's letter is perhaps as bad as anything I've ever heard about him. Ever. And that includes all the Jagdeo stuff. It's not so much that he had to write Steve back. Yes, as Steve's Lord and Master he had to do that. Of course he did. But he also simply had to get some local premies, maybe an instructor or two, someone, to try to intervene. Sounds like no one did. Appalling.

Subject: Re: Oh come on, Chris! From: cq To: Jim Date Posted: Mon, Mar 18, 2002 at 08:00:51 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: dumb? you mean the bit where I said 'surely SOME responsibility has to be 'laid at the feet' of the one making those claims' perhaps the exasperation I intended to come across there didn't communicate itself to you, Jim. Like sarcasm, the vocal inflections don't always translate into print too well. Read it as an understatement, if that helps. Or have I got the wrong end of the stick, and you're saying that ALL of the responsibility for Steve's actions should be placed at the Maha's door? Now that WOULD be dumb.

Subject: Clarification From: Jim To: Jim Date Posted: Sat, Mar 16, 2002 at 18:06:06 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: To be clear, I'm assuming that the visits Steve did get weren't at the behest of Maharaji for, if they were, Steve would have been told as much. That would have been one of the big selling points -- 'Maharaji got your letter and wanted us to tell you ....' Instead, nothing.

Subject: Some Points Re Your Post From: Steve Quint To: cq Date Posted: Sat, Mar 16, 2002 at 17:58:13 (EST) Email Address: the_avenger55@hotmail.com Message: Courage or stupidity? It may have been something else, like mental illness. Am I responsible for my bad luck or mental illness? Maybe. 'Steve saw fit to test him.' Where'd you get that? I think it's clear from my sister's letter and my story that I felt he was testing me. If not, let me make that clear. I felt a failure and needed 'a test to pass'. I though that if I jumped enough times, I'd land in London, England where m was speaking that night. I'd call it delusion based on the whole trip as I had experienced it. I had been made to feel special by krishnasukanand, and maybe that feeling of specialness contributed to the delusion that I could travel from Montreal to London by jumping off a balcony. Anyway, overall I appreciate your post. Steve

Subject: Re: Some Points Re Your Post From: cq To: Steve Quint Date Posted: Mon, Mar 18, 2002 at 12:33:58 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks for the feedback, Steve. Whether it was you testing M's supposed powers, or whether you thought M was challenging you to test his own supposed powers - well, you're the guy who jumped, so I guess I'd better bow to your own first-hand experience of the whole sorry affair. You say Krishnasukhanand 'made you feel special'. Or was it the writings of Carlos Castenada that put the idea in your mind that you could relocate like that? Perhaps it was your OWN powers you were testing? Guess I'm trying too hard to imagine myself in your position, up there on the balcony. My own projections, I guess. Sorry.

Subject: Thanks again Steve From: PatC To: Steve Quint Date Posted: Sat, Mar 16, 2002 at 19:29:24 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You said: ''Am I responsible for my bad luck or mental illness? Maybe.'' My answer is NO! Bad luck happens. Bad things do happen to good people. We aren't in control of other people. If an evil person does something bad to you that's beyond your control. As for your mental illness - from what you have told me - I understand that it is serious and not some self-indulgence or weakness on your part. Many mental problems actually are caused by problems with the brain chemistry. You most definitely are not responsible for your illness. All the bad things that happened to you could have been avoided IF Rawat had not talked such utter shit about being the saviour and the Lord, greater than god. You would probably have received proper treatment. Your story makes me angry because in December 2000 something similar happened here in San Francisco. A young man of 21 who had a history of mental illness became an aspirant and believed that Rawat was the Master. Why? Because that's what the idiot Rawat told him in hours and hours of videos which they guy had to watch in order to receive K. Well, the young man despaired and began to feel that he was being strung along by Rawat because he needed help right away yet he had to wait and watch videos for nearly a year before he could be saved by the Master. The young man jumped to his death from an apartment block. Your problems and his would have been solved correctly IF Rawat had not claimed to be THE Master who could save you. It's time to put the blame at the clay feet of the one who caused these problems, the idiotic puffed-up pompous greedy irresponsible debauchee, Prempal Singh Rawat.

Subject: is doing a little more revising From: The Maharaji of Malibu To: All Date Posted: Fri, Mar 15, 2002 at 17:45:07 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: So, it seems that the malibu maha may be in the process of changing his name yet again. It won't be long until aka Maharaji is completely gone and it'll just be the self-K offered by a cool dude by the name of Rawat. I figure about the year 2005 some maha cult member will appear on Forum 10 and deny even knowing the name Maharaji. 'I rec'd self-K directly from Prem Rawat in 1972', they'll claim and some will even believe it.

Subject: Re: is doing a little more revising From: Mercedes To: The Maharaji of Malibu Date Posted: Sat, Mar 16, 2002 at 00:15:20 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It never ends...this guy is in such denial that he will change everything to avoid seeing the deceiver that he is.

Subject: Re: is doing a little more revising From: bolly shri To: Mercedes Date Posted: Sun, Mar 17, 2002 at 12:01:36 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: shucks this constant unchanging knowledge sure takes a lot of keeping up with. changing his name changing his history what will I do with all those lovely pics of him cavorting in silk pants and acrown labelled Guru Maharaji I missed the official revision and book burning so I have a nice assortment of pics from his holy time as lord then he's ateacher then abusiness man what is this multiple incarnations in one lifetime too mysterious for my simple brain jai guys bolly shri

Subject: Re: is doing a little more revising From: bolly shri To: Mercedes Date Posted: Sun, Mar 17, 2002 at 12:01:33 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: shucks this constant unchanging knowledge sure takes a lot of keeping up with. changing his name changing his history what will I do with all those lovely pics of him cavorting in silk pants and acrown labelled Guru Maharaji I missed the official revision and book burning so I have a nice assortment of pics from his holy time as lord then he's ateacher then abusiness man what is this multiple incarnations in one lifetime too mysterious for my simple brain jai guys bolly shri

Subject: Rosie O'Donnell/Diane Sawyer (OT) From: Joe To: All Date Posted: Fri, Mar 15, 2002 at 16:29:15 (EST) Email Address: kevjo@mindspring.com Message: Did anybody watch Diane Sawyer's interview of Rosie O'Donnell last night on ABC, and the story of the 500,000 kids who don't get adopted in this country? I didn't expect to watch it, but tuned in and ended up watching the whole two hours. I didn't know much about Rosie O'Donnell, and I've never seen her TV Show (although my secretary says she tapes it every day and always watches it and she says it's good), but I have to say I was impressed with her courage and dedication. And some of those kids who were interviewed really broke my heart. Almost made me want to be an adoptive parent. Also, just wanted to say, that I know a whole bunch of gay couples who are raising children and from what I can tell they are terrific families. I know San Francisco is particularly conducive and supportive for gay parenting and adoption, and it does seem to be happening quite a lot. I kind of get to be a vicarious parent at times, just hanging around some of those kids. :)

Subject: Re: Rosie O'Donnell/Diane Sawyer (OT) From: Scott T. To: Joe Date Posted: Sat, Mar 16, 2002 at 17:55:52 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Joe: Rosie O'Donnell is America's Sweetheart, and it's enormously encouraging that she has entered this fray... with almost unimpeachable motivations. I should add that I found her comments thoughtful, circumspect, insightful and considerate, which his just the way she is. --Scott (with a genuine weakness for tomboys) T.

Subject: Re: Rosie O'Donnell/Diane Sawyer (OT) From: Jennifer To: Joe Date Posted: Fri, Mar 15, 2002 at 17:14:48 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: This is so weird, Joe, because I just wrote Rosie a letter about this! We have a subscription to her magazine (long story, but suffice it to say I got sick of crying reading her articles in public places like the dentist's office.) The April issue just came today it had the story about the Florida laws in there. Rosie is politically very liberal and she is best friends with Madonna. She does a lot of work with children's organizations, sexual abuse centers, adoption centers, hospitals, etc. She is a real children's advocate. I've never written a letter to a celebrity before, but I wanted to tell her the story of my sister and her partner adopting my niece and give her support for getting the Florida laws changed. BTW, I always wondered if Rosie was gay, but never heard that she had officially 'come out' She did say that she was gay in the magazine article I read today. I was curious if this was the first time she had mentioned that or if she had come out publically before. Anyway, good for her.

Subject: Re: Rosie O'Donnell/Diane Sawyer (OT) From: Joe To: Jennifer Date Posted: Fri, Mar 15, 2002 at 18:14:26 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: From what I have read, Rosie O'Donnell was kind of in the 'glass closet,' in the sense that everyone around her knew, but she never said so publicly. As she mentioned in the interview, there was some criticism of her in the gay press from time to time, that she was hiding in the closet. I think she explained pretty well in the interview why she waited to go public, and also that the adoption issue was the thing that pushed her into doing it. It seems that her strong empathy for abused and neglected kids is because she had a very hard life as a kid herself, with her mother dying when she was young, her dad an alcoholic and she was neglected, etc.

Subject: Link to ACLU Website From: Joe To: Joe Date Posted: Fri, Mar 15, 2002 at 16:34:17 (EST) Email Address: Kevjo@mindspring.com Message: This is the link to the ACLU website about the family talked about in Diane Sawyer's piece last night on ABC. Anybody who wants to contact Jeb Bush in Florida can maybe try to get him to let that family stay together. You can click on the section "from Rosie" to hear why Rosie decided to "come out" on ABC last night. Let Him Stay www.lethimstay.com/action.html

Subject: Link to Rosie O'Donnell Interview From: Joe To: Joe Date Posted: Fri, Mar 15, 2002 at 16:37:54 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Here is the link to the ABC site with a summary of the Rosie O'Donnell interview. Rosie Interview abcnews.go.com/Sections/Primetime/

Subject: Re: Link to Rosie O'Donnell Interview From: Jennifer To: Joe Date Posted: Fri, Mar 15, 2002 at 17:28:54 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I think it is important that she came out, because she has been revered (sp?)as one of the best 'hands on' celebrity moms ever since she became one. She is going to help dispel some myths that gay people can't be good parents. My sister and her partner are terrific parents! All children should be as lucky as my niece. Thanks for the link, Joe.

Subject: Thanks/Anita Bryant the Tyrant From: Joe To: Jennifer Date Posted: Fri, Mar 15, 2002 at 19:35:08 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks, Jennifer. There is a link on the ACLU website that you, your sister, and her partner can send emails to the Florida governor and others, to get them to help get the Florida law against gay adoptions changed. BTW -- the reason Florida is one of the very few states that bans gay adoptions arises right out of the Anita Bryant campaign in the late 70s when there was an anti-gay frenzy in Florida and the law was passed in 1977.

Subject: She is one of many tyrants From: Jennifer To: Joe Date Posted: Fri, Mar 15, 2002 at 19:53:56 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Joe, I went to the ACLU website you provided and forwarded it to my sister. Then I used their form to send Jeb and company a copy of my letter to Rosie. My sister and her partner and every member of my family are writing letters tonight. I'm sure all of my sister's friends will be asked to write, as she's very persuasive :) The laws on same sex adoption in the county my sister lives in can be loosely interpreted by a judge. Some of the judges there are strictly opposed and some are for it. She was lucky enough that her case got handed to a judge who is very liberal and open minded--and it was luck of the draw. It could have easily gone the other way. An aside: One cool thing about my sister's adoption was that a girl from my dormitory hall in college was the attorney who handled her case. She handles a lot of same sex adoptions around here. We recognized one another in the judges chambers--we hadn't seen one another in years! I was glad to see her doing such worthwhile work. Remember, we are in the dark ages here in GA. We don't have Anita Bryant, but we have lots of other tyrants, unfortunately. Most counties do not allow same sex adoptions. None allow same sex marriages and oral and anal sex are also illegal. Only the missionary position for married couples in the privacy of their bedroom. Yeah, right...

Subject: Re: She is one of many tyrants From: Joe To: Jennifer Date Posted: Mon, Mar 18, 2002 at 12:55:12 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hey Jennifer, That's great you have gotten that many people to comment. I do believe it has an effect, and I think the pressure on Florida, and Jeb Bush, is only going to grow. And if Florida ever tries to take that kid out of that family, the publicity will be incredible. Can't you just see the headlines and the pictures? So, the consciousness raising is the first important thing, and then things change, in my opinion. That's the way it happened in other states. I think the difference is that Florida, because of the Anita Bryant sordid history, is one of only three states that actually ban gay adoptions. True, what you said about it being up to judges and judges being in various stages of enlightment. But first you have to lift the ban, then people apply to adopt and can sue if they are denied. It's a slow process, but that's how things work. What I am seeing happening with some gay couples I know is they are California residents adopting children in other states. One current method is to 'advertise' around the country that the couple is available to be adoptive parents. They even put out little brochures. Then, a woman who is pregnant and wants to give her child up for adoption, can 'choose' the couple as the adoptive parents, and a surprising number choose same-sex parents. An attorney in my firm and his partner, adopted a little girl from a mother in North Carolina. It's all done through an agency, etc., for vaious reasons. Bruce and Jeff wanted to do a 'joint adoption' where both adopt the child simultaneously, and although North Carolina doesn't forbid gay adoption, it does not recognize joint adoption and California does. So about a month before the delivery, the mother came to California and had the child here, and the adoption was done in California where joint adoptions are allowed. It all seemed to work very well, and Anna is now five years old, and they are in the process of adopting another child from a couple from Oregon, which I think is due around July. Obviously, there are so many gay adoptions here, that the judges are much more saavy, and good laws have been passed to prohibit discrimination. But it is a slow, process, even here. BTW -- there have been studies done on gay parenting, and they have found that there is no difference in any of the outcomes than with straight parents, which everyone thought anyway, which is why the American Pediatric Society (or Assn?) recently approved of gay adoption, to the deep chagrin of the Family Research Council and the other homophobe groups. And, oh yes, sodomy laws. And the famous Bowers v. Hardwick case from Georgia, now 15 years ago. After seeing the opinion in Roemer v. Evans in Colorado, I'm certain that case would have gone the other way if it was decided after 1992. After Justice Powell retired, he said his upholding of Georgia in that case was one of his biggest regrets, and the decision was 5-4 in 1986, while Roemer went 6-3 the other way in 1992. Society does change, and the courts reflect it. Yes, the dark ages still exist, but the laws have either been repealled or struck down by the courts in most states and they aren't enforced anyway. The same will eventually happen in Georgia, as I think all the remaining laws are in the process of being challenged in the courts.

Subject: Good news From: Jennifer To: Joe Date Posted: Mon, Mar 18, 2002 at 15:37:36 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: That post was certainly full of good news all around. Thanks for sharing it. One thing that makes me mad about the case in Florida is the message it is sending appears to be: 'If kids are defective and no one wants them, gay people can have them. If they are ok, then we won't place them there or we will take them away.' How whacked. You are right--people will certainly raise hell about it if they take that little boy out. I'm just worried that it won't matter. People have raised hell in the past when courts have taken various children out of their adoptive homes and put them back with their (obviously inferior) biological parents. What is best for the children is not always what the court considers, unfortunately. Maybe that is something that will slowly change, too. I'm so glad to hear that the America Pediatrics Association recently approved of gay adoption. Can't say I'm at all surprised by the results of that study that there is no difference in outcomes between the two groups. Could have told you that without a study. I agree that it's a slow process. That is the most frustrating part to me.

Subject: Re: Good news From: Joe To: Jennifer Date Posted: Mon, Mar 18, 2002 at 16:12:22 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I can tell you feel strongly about this because people close to you have encountered these issues, and that makes a big difference. It just makes so much difference when you see the actual parents and children, and I know that's true for me too. Yeah, it is infuriating. The state of Florida should be thanking that couple for taking kids nobody wanted and perhaps saving their lives. But, when the one child went back to being HIV-, suddently he was 'adoptable,' but not by a gay person, although the gay couple was good enough while the kid was still infected. So much hypocrisy. Amazing. And this whole idea that gay couples should have to go through some kind of special scrutiny or study in order to be treated like anybody else seeking to adopt is such nonsense. The assumption has to be that anybody has the possibility of being a good parent, and everyone should be seen and evaluated individually, and not eliminated because of some irrational prejudice. Actually, I think the studies show that children raised by gays have no different outcomes from those raised by straights, except, that children of gay people are more open to experimenting with a same sex relationship. I guess that makes sense, given they actually have a same-sex relationship role model in their lives, unlike most everyone else, but that might be what the homophobes are most worried about. They basically want everyone to go back into the closet anyway, and the idea that kids might be less that scared shitless about possibily being attracted to the same sex is not to their liking. So, they bring out bogus and completely discreted studies to 'prove' that gays make bad parents. What I thought was amazing was that Christian flat-earther Diane Sawyer interviewed who said that children might be 'traumatized' if they had gay parents. Hello? I remember thinking of that woman in Texas whot drowned her five kids. Those kids are dead, but at least they weren't 'traumatized' by having gay parents. Geez. I know what you mean about raising hell maybe not working, but I think the difference is the national attention this has gotten. I think the vast majority of people are basically fair-minded, and would react strongly to seeing that poor kid ripped out of his home and the family he loves. That's just so much more powerful than talking about 'adoption' and gay rights in the asbstract. If Jeb Bush was smart, he would get the message to the Florida Department that handles adoptions and tell them to PLEASE put that kid's adoption papers at the bottom of the pile, and just never get to them. The last thing he would need would be a confrontation on this that would be plastered all over the media. But I've got to believe that some Christian bigot will apply to adopt that kid. I wouldn't be a bit surprised. So, J.Bush will be left with the Christian bigots on one side, and Rosie O'Donnell, the media, and most everyone else on the other. Not a great place for him to be.

Subject: Re: She is one of many tyrants From: Jennifer To: Jennifer Date Posted: Fri, Mar 15, 2002 at 20:01:33 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: And I forgot to mention that I got all of my friends in GA to write to Fla. and they agreed to do so as well. Somehow I don't see Jeb Bush giving in on this issue, but one can't give up hope, right?

Subject: Re: She is one of many tyrants From: Scott T. To: Jennifer Date Posted: Sun, Mar 17, 2002 at 00:13:06 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Somehow I don't see Jeb Bush giving in on this issue, but one can't give up hope, right? Nope. No incentive, and the Bushes are political animals. But it's still a healthy situation. Rosie was straightforward with her son about the fact that he *was* missing something in not having a father... but that the tradeoff was still in his favor. The determination ought to be made on that basis too, case by case. Good for everyone. One sexually exploitive gay couple and the shit will hit the fan. Reality. If you're in favor of gay adoption you want a serious documented backlog of enormously successful cases before that ever happens, because it eventually will, humans being what they are. --Scott

Subject: My soapbox From: Jennifer To: Scott T. Date Posted: Sun, Mar 17, 2002 at 09:30:26 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The determination ought to be made on that basis too, case by case. Good for everyone. I agree. Case by case is the only way. Just as it's always been done. One sexually exploitive gay couple and the shit will hit the fan. Reality. If you're in favor of gay adoption you want a serious documented backlog of enormously successful cases before that ever happens, because it eventually will, humans being what they are. This is too big brother for my taste. A bit like saying when women first went to work, people had to document hundreds of them as being good workers in case one of them was bad and had to be fired...see my point? Really, why should the process for gay parents adopting be any more strenuous than it is for straight people who want to adopt? All prospective parents should be screened in the same way and treated the same way. Just think of the hundreds and thousands of LOUSY and/or sexually exploitive heterosexual parents out there. Surely there have been some straight people out there who have adopted and then abused or neglected children. So why doesn't the 'shit hit the fan' when a heterosexual couple who adopts sexually exploits their kids? Of course, no one wants to place any adoptive child in a less than ideal environment, but what is ideal? Being with a parent who loves you and can provide for you is ideal. Rosie's child may not have a dad, but I know plenty of kids in homes with two parents who have absentee dads. A dad in name only. Then there are divorced parents without dads, children whose dads die. Other kids who have never met their dads. For each case I've mentioned, you can remove the moms and the same applies. I think this is a non-issue. My niece has two moms. My husband and her three other Uncles and two grandfathers give her plenty of opportunities for male bonding. An adoption encompasses an entire family, not just the nucleus. What is 'missing' in one place can often be found elsewhere. And whose to say not having a mom or not having a Dad means a child is missing out on something. I think we have to expand our vision to remember that love and security are what a child needs--not some pre-exisiting definition of 'mom and dad' that may be completely void of love and security. The male couple who wants to keep their son in Florida won a parenting award for being outstanding foster parents. One of the guys quit his job to be Mr. Mom to his children, all of whom have AIDS or HIV. Those guys had to suction out one of their kid's noses every hour or so while it was a baby or it would die. They have incredible dedication and I'm sure they have been under a microscope. Those guys are better parents than most people I know. Those children are lucky, even with no mom. My opinion is that people who care for children make excellent parents and that their sexual orientation does not affect that (so long as they aren't pedophiles.) It's pretty simple in my mind.

Subject: Re: My soapbox From: Scott T. To: Jennifer Date Posted: Sun, Mar 17, 2002 at 13:47:21 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jennifer: I guess you have to get it off your chest. Don't get too attached to your own rhetoric though. This is too big brother for my taste. A bit like saying when women first went to work, people had to document hundreds of them as being good workers in case one of them was bad and had to be fired...see my point? Except that there's nothing as explosive as the sexual abuse of children. Anyway, what I'm talking about is a political strategy... facilitated by the prudence of determination on a case by case basis. Just use it, meaningfully and intentionally. Really, why should the process for gay parents adopting be any more strenuous than it is for straight people who want to adopt? All prospective parents should be screened in the same way and treated the same way. Be careful about idealizing attitudes here. We're talking about real people with real foibles, not ideal people with perfectly correct spontaneous reactions. If you want an ideal world, go somewhere and start from scratch. (Not that that would work either.) Of course, no one wants to place any adoptive child in a less than ideal environment, but what is ideal? Being with a parent who loves you and can provide for you is ideal. Rosie's child may not have a dad, but I know plenty of kids in homes with two parents who have absentee dads. A dad in name only. Then there are divorced parents without dads, children whose dads die. Other kids who have never met their dads. For each case I've mentioned, you can remove the moms and the same applies. I think this is a non-issue. I beg to differ. It's an enormous issue. There isn't much data on single sex couples raising children, but there's a lot of data on single parent households. Most of those are absent fathers, of course. Impact on behavioral problems is enormous, across the board. Impact on academic achievement is mixed, but much stronger for white and Hispanic families than for black. I'm not sure how much of this is due to single-parent phenomenon, or absent gender though. I think Rosie's attitude about this is realistic. My niece has two moms. My husband and her three other Uncles and two grandfathers give her plenty of opportunities for male bonding. An adoption encompasses an entire family, not just the nucleus. Boy I sure don't know about that. Are you saying the extended family is coming back? It still looks pretty marginal to me, in the aggregate. What is 'missing' in one place can often be found elsewhere. Thank God! So, what's wrong with doing something constructive and deliberate about that, instead of just presuming it'll happen on it's own? (Not that I have any proposals. I have barely begun to think about it. Just that we should be open, and creative.) They have incredible dedication and I'm sure they have been under a microscope. Those guys are better parents than most people I know. Those children are lucky, even with no mom. I think even the opponents acknowledge that, or am I wrong? My opinion is that people who care for children make excellent parents and that their sexual orientation does not affect that (so long as they aren't pedophiles.) It's pretty simple in my mind. Is there no room for pragmatism then? You're willing to make that argument after a big sex scandal focusses national attention, and expect to advance your cause? You have a lot more faith in 'talk' and idealism than I. If you asked Rosie I'll bet you'd find she's more circumspect. I think the phrase she uses is: 'Enough, already!' It embodies pragmatism. Man, I'm really glad she's in this. Hope it doesn't wear her out. --Scott

Subject: 'Enough already' yourself From: Jennifer To: Scott T. Date Posted: Sun, Mar 17, 2002 at 19:29:08 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Scott, I don't just listen to my own rhetoric, I live it, pal. :) Most of the people who think what I just said is rhetoric aren't able to see the possibilites. I'm proud that I can and if that makes me an idealist, so be it. I'd have to see the numbers and the research on the single parent family being MORE detrimental to a child than being raised by two parents when one or both of the parents isn't worth a damn. (Doubt they have THOSE numbers, unfortunately!) Do you get my point? Of course two is better then one when the two are good--simple math. Personally, I think it's silly for Rosie to apologize to her son when he gets to hang out at Madonna's mansion and fly all over the world. She is giving him a wealth of experiences that most other kids--even kids with Dad's--can't even begin to imagine. Just being pragmatic. Again, I think who will make a good parent a very individual, case by case thing. My Uncle raised my cousin as a single parent and did a wonderful job. She turned out well adjusted and I don't think she would say she was damaged. On the other hand, I know some little shits who live down the street who wouldn't know a moral value if it hit them over the head. Surprise! They all have Mommies and Daddies. In some places and some families, Scott, the extended family never went out of style. :) I don't think it's coming back on the grand scale, no. As you said, it's case by case. 'Enough already?' Ha! ha! Fine, we won't talk about it anymore, but don't say I didn't warn you. My last post title even said the post was going to be a soapbox.

Subject: Re: 'Enough already' yourself From: Scott T. To: Jennifer Date Posted: Mon, Mar 18, 2002 at 00:20:52 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jennifer: I'd have to see the numbers and the research on the single parent family being MORE detrimental to a child than being raised by two parents when one or both of the parents isn't worth a damn. (Doubt they have THOSE numbers, unfortunately!) Do you get my point? Of course two is better then one when the two are good--simple math. Let's put it this way, if you have only one parent then your chances are only half as good that you'll have at least one good parent than if you have two. Or looking at it the other way: two parents rather than one increases the odds of having at least one good parent by 100%. The 'pool' is twice as big, so to speak. It's not the number of bad parents you have (excluding incest and stuff like that) that's the problem. It's the lack of good parents. But, as you say, a lot depends on child rearing practices... which can easily make up for something like an absent parent. But that *does* require that we don't just take child rearing skills for granted. Did they actually used to put soap in soapboxes? --Scott

Subject: I believe they did put soap there--ot From: Jennifer To: Scott T. Date Posted: Mon, Mar 18, 2002 at 09:08:09 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'The suffragettes insisted on having a female presence wherever men were. Women passed out literature on streets and spoke on soapboxes. They purposely dressed femininely to combat stereotypes of dowdy, strong-minded women. Their dress was also their armor – used to keep the privilege of social distance that good manners and wide brimmed hats required.' As far as I know soap was packed in soapboxes and shipped to merchantiles. Thank you for changing the subject.

Subject: And one more thing From: Jennifer To: Jennifer Date Posted: Sun, Mar 17, 2002 at 09:41:55 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I know you were saying that cases should be documented to protect gay adoptive parents. I'm just not sure they feel that they need to be protected. I didn't make that clear in the first post. When people want to adopt, they don't care about having a study to back them up. They just want a child to care for. Also, I do believe from talking to gay parents that the main concern they have to deal with is the potential that their children will become targets of hate-mongers. I'm not talking about just teasing (which can be cruel, but kids tease about all kinds of things.) Still the folks I've talk to feel that as people become better educated and as more gay people become parents, this will more of a thing of the past.

Subject: Re: And one more thing From: Scott T. To: Jennifer Date Posted: Sun, Mar 17, 2002 at 13:56:53 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I know you were saying that cases should be documented to protect gay adoptive parents. I'm just not sure they feel that they need to be protected. I didn't make that clear in the first post. When people want to adopt, they don't care about having a study to back them up. They just want a child to care for. I'm talking about long term political strategy, that's designed to impact courts and legislatures through public opinion. I never even considered the issue of how it might protect specific gay couples, except in the sense of ensuring their right to adopt. Also, I do believe from talking to gay parents that the main concern they have to deal with is the potential that their children will become targets of hate-mongers. I'm not talking about just teasing (which can be cruel, but kids tease about all kinds of things.) Still the folks I've talk to feel that as people become better educated and as more gay people become parents, this will more of a thing of the past. So the long term strategy involves *lots* of successful examples, right? Documentation (which is going to happen through the auspices of sociology departments anyway) simply ensures that the forest doesn't get lost in a few trees. There's huge interest in child-rearing practices right now, in academe. Setting up a long term panel study that documents child rearing, and that includes gay couples, would be enormously constructive, even far beyond the issue of gay adoption to the broader 'bell curve' theme. --Scott

Subject: My final word--I hope From: Jennifer To: Scott T. Date Posted: Sun, Mar 17, 2002 at 19:45:59 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Look, I just think the whole idea that anyone would HAVE to go through that much trouble with sociology departments and bell curves and statistics in order to adopt is ridiculous. Especially because anyone with any sense knows each adoption case is so different. Each couple is different. Relying upon statistics for OTHER couples makes absolutely NO sense. Jennifer

Subject: Re: My final word--I hope From: Scott T. To: Jennifer Date Posted: Mon, Mar 18, 2002 at 00:23:17 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jennifer: I don't think you understand what I'm saying, but let's just drop it. --Scott

Subject: Re: My final word--I hope From: Jennifer To: Scott T. Date Posted: Mon, Mar 18, 2002 at 08:52:13 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I don't think you understand me either. Fine, lets do.

Subject: Anyone heard that fable From: Jean-Michel To: All Date Posted: Fri, Mar 15, 2002 at 10:02:43 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: saying that in fact no plane crashed on the Pentagon, and that this is all made up to allow the USA to attack the 'bad guys', that Bin Laden has been manipulated by the CIA, that he was actually treated in a Pakistanese clinic during the events etc. Some people actually believe this !!

Subject: Re: Anyone heard that fable From: Jennifer To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Fri, Mar 15, 2002 at 11:52:32 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: A friend of mine was sitting at his office in the Pentagon when the plane crashed 30 feet away, killing his two best friends and many co-workers. I'll inform him that he was dillusional and must have imagined the whole thing. (sarcasm) Where did you hear that?

Subject: They say: NO PLANE on the Penatgon From: Jean-Michel To: Jennifer Date Posted: Fri, Mar 15, 2002 at 13:51:20 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'm wondering why and how they can say this. They say no plane parts were found on the spot, no bodies, no pictures of the plane flying to the place, nothing. They say it was made up by the CIA etc the usual plot theory. What they don't say is where the plane (and its passengers) is gone ! When you take a closer look at the whole thing, you discover that some of the theory's makers guys are well-known antiamericans.

Subject: Re: They say: NO PLANE on the Penatgon From: bill To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Sun, Mar 17, 2002 at 01:24:55 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Kind of reminding me of some of the revisionist postings of premies.

Subject: They say: NO CROWN, NO.... From: EV Spin Doctor To: bill Date Posted: Sun, Mar 17, 2002 at 09:55:27 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: MALA, NO TOE KISSING,NO WORHIPPING AS GOD, NEVER BEEN 'THE PERFECT MASTER', NEVER DECLARED HE WOULD RULE THE WORLD, NO KRISHNA COSTUME WITH FLUTE THAT HE CAN'T PLAY,NEVER SAID THAT HE WAS THE MOST POWERFUL INCARNATION OF GOD TO EVER WALK THE PLANET,NEVER KNEW ABOUT JAGDEO'S CRIMES (EVEN THOUGH EV LAWYERS 'BRIEFED' HIM ON IT YEARS AGO),NEVER TOOK IN VAST UNREPORTED SUMS OF MONEY THROUGH DARSHAN LINES (MAINLY BECAUSE THEY NEVER HAPPENED),NEVER HAS HAD A DRINKING PROBLEM,NEVER TOOK ADVANTAGE OF HIS FEMALE FOLLOWERS SEXUALLY,NEVER HAD AN X-RATING SYSTEM,NEVER GOT RICH OFF THE PREMIES AND THEIR SLAVE LABOR,NEVER HAD A MISTRESS,NEVER LIED,NEVER SAID HE WAS GOD..... NO, you see the maharaja of malibu never said any of these things....these are all scurrilous lies made up by angry 'jilted lovers' who are lost, confused and so unhappy with their lives that they have to blame a poor innocent young man from India who only talks about happiness and love.... What a world this has become! Poor little prem rawat is such a victim... What will people stoop to these days! If it's not making up those lies about the Pentagon being hit by a plane (when we all know it was faked, since no plane parts were found), then these terrible people look for fine innocent people like the maharaj of malibu to pick on and victimize for their own perverted, distorted reasons... What's next? Will they try to say that he thought he was god or something?

Subject: THIS IS NOT THE REAL SALAM From: Spam PaTROLL To: Salam Date Posted: Fri, Mar 15, 2002 at 22:20:03 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Sounds like that turd ****

Subject: Here is Sir Dave's post From: JHB To: Spam PaTROLL Date Posted: Sat, Mar 16, 2002 at 17:36:14 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: This is the post that started this thread that disappeared with the trash. John, --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- Subject: The terrible fear that Maharaji creates From: Sir Dave To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 22:43:38 (EST) Email Address: sirdavid12@hotmail.com Message: I have a friend (I shall call him Andrew although that's not his real name) who is a wavering premie who wants to become an ex but is living in fear because of some of the things Maharaji has said. He really is afraid. Unfortunately he's not on the internet and would only have occasional access via a library computer. One of the heavy things that Maharat said that is troubling Andrew is the story about the boat where all the people on it drowned or were eaten by sharks after jumping in for a swim and forgetting to put down a ladder. This has put the fear of God into him. There are many other things that Maharat has said over the years which trouble Andrew and he is also plagued by fears that if the Maharat is The One then he will be in big trouble if he renounced and denounced him. Andrew is very confused and is in turmoil. Unfortunaltely he lives a long way from me although I do talk to him regularly on the phone. He lives in the UK. Does anyone have any ideas on how to help Andrew? I have already filled him in on a lot of the stuff about Maharat that we all know which most premies still don't know. If anyone wants to write a message to Andrew here, or to my email (addressed above) then please do. I will then print out any messages to him and post them off to him. Thanks.

Subject: And of course this proves it isn't a cult, right? From: hamzen To: Spam PaTROLL Date Posted: Sat, Mar 16, 2002 at 04:51:29 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Really I sometimes think that the trolls do more exiting work than anyone else here, in terms of the forum, not epo. Not only are they ugly, and suffused with so little love and compassion, but they also have no shame in demonstrating explicitly how riddled they are with cult thinking. One could argue that their hate filled expletives are truly 'perfick'. If you say it often enough, I am not in a cult, you might believe it, but it makes it perfectly plain to everyone else just how cult filled you are. Indeed, by their fruits you shall know them.

Subject: What happened to Dave's post? From: JHB To: Spam PaTROLL Date Posted: Sat, Mar 16, 2002 at 01:58:09 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: This was Sir Dave's thread about his worried friend, Andrew. Spam is one thing but hacking people's posts is a little worrying. Unless it's just Hotboards mixing up message ids again. John.

Subject: Re: What happened to Dave's post? From: PatC To: JHB Date Posted: Sat, Mar 16, 2002 at 03:50:01 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Just noticed. My guess is that one of the night-shift forum janitors ;) tried to clean up the mess and Hotboards wiped out an adjacent post. It happened to me once.

Subject: Re: What happened to Dave's post? From: gerry To: PatC Date Posted: Sat, Mar 16, 2002 at 10:45:12 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I didn't see Dave's post. I hope I didn't accidentally delete it when cleaning up ****'s spam.

Subject: Shit! Does anyone have a copy of Dave's post? From: gerry To: gerry Date Posted: Sat, Mar 16, 2002 at 13:27:35 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I must have deleted it. Damn, it must have been a good one seeing the responses to it. The trolls got lucky on this one. Sorry Dave and everyone.

Subject: Message for Andrew From: Kelly To: gerry Date Posted: Sun, Mar 17, 2002 at 13:08:07 (EST) Email Address: karen@ringrose.org.uk Message: Dear Andrew, The question that plagues you and many others, including myself as we awake from the cult thinking…is….What if I’m wrong? …What if I’m in my head?…What if I have allowed the “doubt maker” to take control? …What if I have allowed my mind to take authority over my heart? What if he is THE ONE after all? The truth is, we’ve fallen prey to the “Master’s” own conditioning. Let’s just stop and look at those questions for a moment, and consider where they came from…..For a start, this whole idea of the ONE ? Where did that idea come from? For many of us on this forum, the Christian tradition has fed us the concept of oneness, the second coming…the Messiah! And Captain Rawat has perpetuated this myth that there is always ONE and only one, Satguru, Perfect Master etc. But what foundation in reality does this idea have? I sincerely believed that M was that Messiah. Why? Because he (Prem Rawat) said he was!!!. Not in so many words, just like he never actually said “ I am God” but in so many other insidious ways….There has never been a time etc…..I am not the first to talk about this etc….This is the same Knowledge that Jesus, Buddha etc etc…..This is the best thing that is happening on this planet etc etc, I deliberately keep to recent quotes, because it is easy to discount his youthful references to his own divinity, but the fact is we swallowed it…hook, line and sinker…well I did anyway! And it is hard to relinquish this beautiful myth for the cold hard truth of…NO MASTER…I’m on my own.? Where does this leave me? I remember so well those shaky days when I started to realise that my doubts and misgivings about M and EV were actually my own inner voice…suppressed for so long. I remember the fear and apprehension as I first acknowledged that I’d been had!! Maybe not deliberately, I still believe that M is the most deluded of us all Personally, I’m with Bunny on this (see below), I think we are all gods, we are all divine, and I know for sure that we are all gurus. We can all learn from each other and we all have a lot to give. It is great to be free again, and to see the world through my own eyes untainted by cult-vision. And, most importantly, taking personal responsibility for my actions, no longer seeing myself as part of some separatist movement but as part of the human race, just one among many…. a real human being…..NOT a premie!!! I wish you all the best, and if you’d like to e-mail me, please do Love Kelly (Karen)

Subject: Love, Fear and The Lord of The Universe From: Nottm Bunny To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Fri, Mar 15, 2002 at 15:56:59 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dear Dave, My heart goes out to your friend and to the many still trapped in the snare of the cult. Were it not for the information given here and the support of friends here and off the forum many more of us, myself included, could still be in that snare. And you are right: the power of the snare is fear. There is an old adage; There is only love or fear. We were drawn to M out of a great need for love, in the promise of the ultimate unconditional love, that of the creator. Yet there was nothing unconditional about M’s offer to us: even his ‘gift’ still belonged to him and the use of it came with the most costly conditions. Many paid for it with careers, wealth and families: all sacrificed on the altar to the glory and enhancement of his career, wealth and family. We all paid with our love and our self worth. There have been times that I felt a great deal of support and help from the security of K and M. I have many happy memories of times I spent with him and for a time I lived on those memories. Despite the cracks appearing over an extensive period, I hung on in there until three to four years ago. I went to more recent events, firstly to check my decision, later as an observer. Leaving that ‘security’ was traumatic, scary and sometimes very lonely. I remember Maharaji saying ‘Knowledge is the only thing happening’. Well, that is another great untruth; there is a great life outside Knowledge and as I have discovered, to steal another quote, ‘it only gets better’! Since exiting, I have discovered the following: There are no rotting vegetables: only the fear of rotting vegetables can hurt you. There are no sharks lurking outside Knowledge: only the fear of those imaginary sharks can hurt you. Come on in, the water’s lovely! And what of the last big fear – what if Maharaji is the one, the Lord of the Universe after all and all of this is a big test? Well I had a realisation, as we used to say: Maharaji is not the Lord of the Universe – I am. By becoming the Lord of your Universe you have the possibility to come into your own power and your own ‘divinity’ for the first time. Since leaving the cult, I am happier, healthier and really enjoying the freedom to explore and develop my passion for life and life’s riches . I am able to be true to myself and enjoy being myself in a way I was unable to do for the previous twenty seven years. Are there known exes near your friend that may be able to give sympathetic support? To be alone processing this is particularly difficult. Exiting can be a very scary and bumpy ride – especially without the reality checks. I found it a great comfort and source of strength to discover others who were questioning things. Talking it through with the appropriate people really helps. Warm regards to both of you, Bunny PS If he’s in my area and wants to talk and/or meet, then do email me. You have my email.

Subject: Fear and Loathing From: Pullaver To: Nottm Bunny Date Posted: Mon, Mar 18, 2002 at 11:59:07 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Fear: See Fear and Loathing in Premieville over at EPO.

Subject: Yes, yes, YES From: hamzen To: Nottm Bunny Date Posted: Sat, Mar 16, 2002 at 04:57:19 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Well I had a realisation, as we used to say: Maharaji is not the Lord of the Universe – I am. By becoming the Lord of your Universe you have the possibility to come into your own power and your own ‘divinity’ for the first time. That just about says it all. Even all the positive changes we went through as premies, projection onto gm and grace etc, when really it was about OUR choices, OUR acceptance, OUR experience, and loads of them were just part of growing up which any person not riddled with cult thinking knows straight off.

Subject: No, no, NO From: Jim To: hamzen Date Posted: Sat, Mar 16, 2002 at 23:42:43 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Well I had a realisation, as we used to say: Maharaji is not the Lord of the Universe – I am. By becoming the Lord of your Universe you have the possibility to come into your own power and your own ‘divinity’ for the first time. That just about says it all. Even all the positive changes we went through as premies, projection onto gm and grace etc, when really it was about OUR choices, OUR acceptance, OUR experience, and loads of them were just part of growing up which any person not riddled with cult thinking knows straight off. --- At first, when the little boy realized what his mommy and daddy were saying, that there really was no Santa Claus, he ran into his room, shut the door, jumped on his bed, buried his face in his pillow and started to cry. 'Should we go see if he's alright?' Mommy asked Daddy. 'Maybe this was a bad idea. Maybe we should have waited until next year.' 'Oh, he's alright,' Daddy answered. 'Just give him a little time. You'll see.' An hour later, when dinner was ready, the little boy came downstairs when called and started setting the table. Far from crying or seeming sad at all, he was smiling and even laughing to himself about something. 'Well, I'm glad to see you so happy' Mommy asked, not even trying to hide her surprise. 'Don't worry, Mommy, I realized that I'm really Santa Claus myself. In fact we all are!' 'Oh God', Mommy thought, as she smiled wanly and returned to the kitchen to get the roast, my own kid is starting to play these idiotic word games. I just hope he grows out of it.' :)

Subject: Wheres the poetry in your sole, eh? From: hamzen To: Jim Date Posted: Sun, Mar 17, 2002 at 07:49:29 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Bunny's post says it all really, love yer to death but rrreally Jim, a little imagination for that poor buggers state of mind wouldn't go amiss. But also any time anyone talks about god now, I assume they are talking about unaccessed parts of themselves, and hey presto, no more grief. I really do believe people do this projecting because they truly are unable to accept themselves in their entirety. I watched a series on the new christianity teachings of the alpha variety recently and used that interpretation of god all the way through and found it fascinating, especially for someone who could never relate to god as I never have.

Subject: Jim, you missed my point From: Nottingham Bunny To: Jim Date Posted: Sun, Mar 17, 2002 at 04:59:02 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jim, Your analogy is not appropriate. Of course there is no real Santa Claus outside the imagination. There is however a universe. You are, I suspect, the centre of your universe and, I hope, the master (Lord) of it. The problems come when you give that power away and make someone else the centre, as we all did. Dave said in his post: ‘he is also plagued by fears that if the Maharaji is The One then he will be in big trouble if he renounced and denounced him. Andrew is very confused and is in turmoil.’ Can you remember twenty years ago, as you left the cult, struggling with the fear that perhaps ‘Maharaji is the One’ as ‘Andrew’ is doing? Perhaps this was not such an issue for you. However, for many of us, that lurking fear was the last great obstacle and for many wavering premies it still is. In my experience, if I wish to influence and/or support someone, communication is most effective if it’s empathetic and in a language that is understood. This is quite different to reinforcing dysfunctional concepts. The prime aim of my post was to communicate with someone who is teetering on the edge, who is still affected by the cult belief systems and certainly not in their power. The refrain (not the words) to the old devotional song ‘The Lord of The Universe’ is still played at major events for Gods sake! This stuff is embedded in the consciousness of the old premies and is reinforced in an insidious way despite the revisionism. Bunny, Lord of The Universe PS I might not be able to log on for a few days because I have some events to do up North.

Subject: Living with your fears From: Jean-Michel To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Fri, Mar 15, 2002 at 10:30:47 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I won't say I've dealt with my fears (I've had them for months, before they started to decrease gradually) rationally. I'd say you have to use your brain to reflect upon your involvement, and accept the challenges. Read what the critics said, meet and talk with other exes, involve yourself in the other things you've always liked, try to reconenct with what you've abandonned because of your involvement, read a lot if you like it. Make new friends if you like and if you can, entertain yourself, take some good vacation ... See a therapist (no new age therapy though), most helpful and excellent investment. Write your 'journey' with m & k .....

Subject: Re: The terrible fear that Maharaji creates From: Mike Finch To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Fri, Mar 15, 2002 at 09:27:36 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: he is also plagued by fears that if the Maharat is The One then he will be in big trouble if he renounced and denounced him.. Yep, my fear too. I dealt with it as follows: Am I advancing in the spritual path, enlightened, happy, peaceful, blissful (take your pick) after X years of following Maharaji faithfully and practising the Knowledge most every day ? If the answer is Yes, most of the time, then stay. If the answer is No, most of the time, then one of two things are true: 1) Maharaji is The One, but either cannot or will not take that extra step to propel me into true happiness, enlightenment, bliss (take your pick again), even if it is my own fault for not taking that extra step, so I should leave. 2) Maharaji is not The One, so I should leave. QED, as we mathematicians say. -- Mike

Subject: Fear cannot be created or destroyed From: Concerned brother To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Fri, Mar 15, 2002 at 08:39:08 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Dave, Please tell your friend not to worry. The story M was telling, I remember that. He was talking about these people who were not respectful of their own lives, to the point that they became so intoxicated (no doubt aided by some fine wine) that they jumped into the sea off their luxury yacht completely unaware that they had not ensured there was a way to reboard the boat. The story was merely another example of how we throw away our safety so easily. It has no spiritual subtexts or connotations. Your friend must realise that he can walk away any time he wants and there will be no real fallout but his freedom, from something he wanted to be free from. Fear cannot be created, only triggered. He will have to find a suitable way to avoid tapping into his own private well of the stuff. It won't ever dry up, but he can be enjoying his time somewhere other than at the well head!

Subject: Bollocks, brother From: cq To: Concerned brother Date Posted: Fri, Mar 15, 2002 at 15:39:50 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: you say 'The story was merely another example of how we throw away our safety so easily' Safety??? You equate being stuck in the Maha's web with safety? Shurely shome mishtake?

Subject: Re: Bollocks, brother From: cb To: cq Date Posted: Fri, Mar 15, 2002 at 21:56:34 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: No I equate being stuck in the ocean pissed off my face and unable to get back on the boat I jumped off, with safety. Lack of it. Maha's web? You see faces in clouds too?

Subject: tell it the spider who's web your stuck in (nt) From: cq To: cb Date Posted: Sat, Mar 16, 2002 at 11:46:11 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: tell it the spider who's web your stuck in (nt)

Subject: remind him of the fable of Peter From: cq To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Fri, Mar 15, 2002 at 07:14:18 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: - who, the story goes, denied his master three times, but went on to be rock his church was founded on.

Subject: Fear 101 From: John Macgregor To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Fri, Mar 15, 2002 at 05:44:50 (EST) Email Address: johnmac@turboweb.net.au Message: '...he is also plagued by fears that if the Maharat is The One then he will be in big trouble if he renounced and denounced him. Andrew is very confused and is in turmoil.' Can relate to this very well. I experienced several weeks of heavy duty fear when I did my posts late last year. I now have regular contact with exiters - some friends, others unknown to me previously - and fear is a huge factor, common to all. The solution for me was: 1. never delay in attending EPO - i.e. read it lots every day, and learn the facts behind the myths 2. wait: wait for the nervous system to catch up with the intellect. This took me maybe 2-3 months, and was torture. Other recent exes and I have compared the symptoms we had during this period. I posted the symptoms of post traumatic stress disorder here a month or 2 ago: we had 90%+ of them. 3. Always have faith in Jim. That's a joke, but has a roundabout truth inasmuch as keeping your sense of humour is very important. Cults do have their funny side, especially when you think of all the emotional and physical drek. For me, what also worked was jumping as soon as I humanly could:getting out and being honest about it had a tremendously liberating effect - tho there was a week or so of serious emotional shock before the nice feelings set it. The main thing I noticed - and also the most surprising thing - is that my INTERNAL EXPERIENCE is better without Maharaji and Knowledge. When that becomes real, you see that there never was a reason to stay in the cult for so long. Anyway, I know several 'Andrews' at present: some have burst out of their shells and left; others are fire-walking in that hellish 'swing' zone - can't jump one way or the other; others again have activated the ostrich reflex and gone into denial, i.e. choosing to remain as premies on the strength of one irrational premiss or another. I have hopes that some in the second 2 categories will come back thru the looking glass at some stage. I advise those in the hell-realm - swinging from one state to another - that they will go mad if they keep that up, and would be better off in the cult if they must...(but ideally out of it). After a year of hardline atheism, I'm exploring a little spirituality again lately, which I'm seriously enjoying. Tho of course if anyone mentions the words 'guru' or 'master' to me for the next 30 years approximately, their physical wellbeing could not be guaranteed. The NSW north coast quartely ex-premies' dinner will be held at my place tomorrow night (Sat). I've invited 15, but in case I've forgotten you or you've exited without my knowing (there's a bit of an exodus happening, and one doesn't always hear right away who's left), contact me (email above) or just show up. Best to all, John

Subject: and your ex-premie friends From: To John To: John Macgregor Date Posted: Fri, Mar 15, 2002 at 11:24:15 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: All normal feelings... Post Cult Trauma www.refocus.org/postcult.html

Subject: Re: The terrible fear that Maharaji creates From: PatC To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Fri, Mar 15, 2002 at 04:11:38 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Please send this to ''Andrew.'' Dear fellow premie, There is no way that it is possible NOT to feel afraid to turn your back on Maharaji. If we had not believed that he was the lord, it might be easy but most of us believed that he was the Master and so of course we were afraid to turn against him. The only way to do it is to just do it. If you are not proud of him and are ashamed and embarassed by him, just dump him. It's only after you've done it and realized that you have not shattered into a thousand pieces, turned into a rotting vegetable or been eaten by sharks that you will see what a pathetically pretentious little man Rev Rawat really is. Sincerely, Patrick Conlon, San Francisco, pdconlon@hotmail.com.

Subject: Thanks all and From: Sir Dave To: PatC Date Posted: Fri, Mar 15, 2002 at 22:36:57 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I don't know your email, Nottingham Bunny. Or if I do have it, I don't know who you are. I have forwarded relevant responses to my friend. I'm sure he'll appreciate it.

Subject: My email address From: Nottm Bunny To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Sat, Mar 16, 2002 at 03:34:39 (EST) Email Address: NottmBunny@aol.com Message: Hi Dave, I emailed you last week following our earlier exchanges and will re-send in case my message went astray. In the meantime, here is my new forum email address. Regards Bunny

Subject: Oops. I shagged my first aspirant. From: Former Instructor To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 17:39:49 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I am not new to this Forum, and have posted here often. However, I must use an even deeper alias today. Please forgive me. Yes, that's correct. I sadly have to admit today that, yes, I shagged the first aspirant that wanted Knowledge from me. It really put me through changes when I became an Instructor and began revealing the techniques of Knowledge to people on behalf of the Guru from Malibu, Maharaji. I was THE only person in my large urban center who was so designated. All of a sudden, it felt like I was a Beatle (but felt more like Ringo, the not-so-cute one). People calling me up left and right, making appointments to talk with me, see me, inviting me out to dinner, buttering me up, trying to inspire in me faith that they were in fact READY in my humble opinion -- the only one that counted locally at that point -- to receive Knowledge from me on M's behalf. So, anyway, there she was. My first aspirant. Private sessions and long Q&A discussions ensued. I was smitten with her lovely olive complexion and gorgeous looks, her beautiful busty shape, great eyes and lips. Beautiful, sexy speech patterns. Just a great total package. It just happened. It was great sex! Super! Did she stick with either myself or the Knowledge? No! It was a quickie infatuation with both. In hind sight, I quickly realized that, come to think of it, no, she wasn't quite ready to receive K. (My bad.) It was my first and last experience of taking advantage of my position as an Instructor. Instructor-aspirant is the same as student-teacher, boss-employee, counselor-camper when it comes to sexual harassment issues. I knew it as wrong ethically. We had gone over this in our Instructor Training. It was obvious. But, I was weak of the flesh. Human. Seduced. Taken in. Lost. Sorry. But so hot, hot, hot! Felt guilty? Yes. Last year, at one of the Knowledge Review screenings, I was asked by one of the Honcho Still Instructors if I had ever given people K because at the screening a premie had indicated that I had given her K (was her Instructor). The Honcho Instructor wanted to double-check that in fact I had ever been given permission to reveal K and that I had in fact ever given anyone K and was ever an Instructor. Yup, it was me. I have heard that I was not the only Instructor who might have done a little extra instructing on the side with certain of their clients. I regret the whole thing. I am sorry I ever heard of M or K. He really is a sorry case.

Subject: Re: Oops. I shagged my first aspirant. From: Salam To: Former Instructor Date Posted: Fri, Mar 15, 2002 at 16:41:15 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: But you can't give The K.

Subject: Re: Oops. I shagged my first aspirant. From: Joe To: Former Instructor Date Posted: Fri, Mar 15, 2002 at 15:06:24 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hey, Former Instructor, From what I understand there is a lot of that going on. I mean, you had one experience, but I understand there are current Instructors who have a premie or an aspirant 'in every port' as John MacGregor describes it. In some ways your post was kind of inspiring. I mean, it seems that normal human desires and needs, for affection and love, can transcend all the repressive bullshit of M's cult. It reminds me of one time in an ashram I was living in, when I walked in on two ashram premies getting it on. The female in the trist has been discussed many times on this Forum. Anyhow, I remember being kind of shocked but at the same time, I felt this sense of relief that there were ashram premies being human. I can see, however, why you might feel really weird about it, since you were in this 'high' position, and the asprirant was being indoctrinated to think you have something to give her (spiritually speaking :)), that would be this wonderful experience and the purpose of her life. I guess it would make you wonder if in any other situation, that relationship would have occurred. Have you talked to this woman since she left the cult? Since you left? It might be an interesting conversation.

Subject: Mind if I check out your credentials? From: cq To: Former Instructor Date Posted: Fri, Mar 15, 2002 at 14:13:42 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: the replies you've had so far indicate that your tale has been believed. If I were you, I'd be expecting a bit more investigation from us supposedly hard-nosed exes, before your story becomes accepted as truth. For all I know, you could be a premie spinning a yarn in the hope that it's accepted as gospel by the majority of exes who post/read here. Thereby invalidating the credibility of many, if not all, other witness stories that have been posted here. If you can make it to EPO, I think you'll find that JHB (the site concierge, if that's not too harsh a description of him) will require a bit more in the way of references before your post becomes enshrined as evidence of ... of what? by the way. Of your own humanity? Or of M's culpability in allowing the likes of you to spread his message? IMO, your story stinks.

Subject: Well... From: Joe To: cq Date Posted: Fri, Mar 15, 2002 at 16:14:33 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I don't believe a premie would EVER say, even if they were trying to con ex-premies, that he is sorry he ever heard of M & K and that Maharaji is 'a sorry case.' A premie would never do that, because of the fear described below. So, this person is really an ex. As for whether the events happened, it probably isn't provable, but then so are most of the personal stories that get told on this forum. I can't see how the Former Instructcor would have a reason to lie about something like this.

Subject: Re: Mind if I check out your credentials? From: Former LET'S GET IT ON Instructor To: cq Date Posted: Fri, Mar 15, 2002 at 14:49:14 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: CQ: Gee, I'm sorry my story is not believable to you. Believe me, or not, it IS the absolute 100% truth. Besides the two of us, there WERE no witnesses. Sorry, no peeping toms, lurkers, voyeurs or camcorders running or present nearby. And I didn't bring it up in an instructors meeting to get feedback. F7 is the place where yesterday this story was first told to any human on earth. My spouse was shocked to read it yesterday!!!!! There was only one witness -- the aspirant. I haven't seen her in a long long time. I only knew her for a short while. Sorry about that. But, see here, Sherlock, these investigating 'supposedly hard-nosed exes,' are they looking for some sort of olfactory evidence? Like sniffing an old pair of boxers or briefs with some Monica Lewinsky type gathered evidence on them? EEEYEEEEEEW. I know you feel that my STORY stinks, but is this the kind of poop positive you require to rub your hard noses in? How disgusting. Sorry, old chap, my collection only goes back so far. I am no longer a premie. Please check with Mr. Gerry Lyng, Forum Administrator, for one, as to the truth of my identify, if you must. I'm sure he'll vouch for me. Your point about the point of my post is quite correct. It is an example of M's culpability in allowing not only the likes of me, but actually ME, to spread his message and reveal the techniques for kidding yourself into believing that the entire package, 'Knowledge,' coupled with undying devotion to a warped personality, is part and parcel of the Absolute Divine Truth of this Existence. Tells you a lot about the man, doesn't it? [My humanity? = A given.]

Subject: No way, no how. I ain't buyin' it From: cq To: Former LET'S GET IT ON Instructor Date Posted: Fri, Mar 15, 2002 at 15:06:35 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Who's this Gerry Lang??? (and that could NOT have been a typo)

Subject: 100% reliable From: Richard To: cq Date Posted: Fri, Mar 15, 2002 at 18:17:18 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Former Instructor is 100% for real. He has contacted me to verify that the story is completely true. Buy it or not, but he's for real.

Subject: Gerry Lyng is the FA for F7 From: Francesca :~) To: cq Date Posted: Fri, Mar 15, 2002 at 15:46:08 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Might be good to send ol' Gerry an e-mail and see whassup. You know, the old tension between having to be anon in order to tell your truth and all that. Both Gerry and JHB have manned the ex-premie confessional booth and vouched for people's credibility so that the rest of us can just take an anon ex at their word. Of course, other credible folks on this Forum have also done the same, such as with OTS and many others, including the infamous 'PAM' that turned out to be John MacGregor. Doo lang doo lang doo lang -- uh, I mean Lyng. :) Francesca

Subject: and Gerry's never been conned, has he? (nt) From: cq To: Francesca :~) Date Posted: Fri, Mar 15, 2002 at 15:50:00 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: and Gerry's never been conned, has he? (nt)

Subject: Never! :) From: gerry To: cq Date Posted: Sat, Mar 16, 2002 at 12:50:55 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: I know Former Instructor From: Barbara To: cq Date Posted: Fri, Mar 15, 2002 at 16:14:35 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dear cq: I know Former Instructor and he's definitely an ex.

Subject: I know Former Instructor: ditto From: gerry To: Barbara Date Posted: Fri, Mar 15, 2002 at 17:02:42 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yes, he's legit Chris.

Subject: OK chaps, just testing From: cq To: gerry Date Posted: Sat, Mar 16, 2002 at 11:53:04 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: got to be on your toes, y'know news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/635000/images/_637987_army_150.jpg

Subject: Re: Oops. I shagged my first aspirant. From: a sympathizer To: Former Instructor Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 20:00:42 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thank you for your report. The flesh is weak. You did the right thing by shagging her. Probably helped her understand that the whole thing was bogus a lot sooner than if you would have not shagged her.

Subject: Re: Oops. I shagged my first aspirant. From: another sympathizer To: a sympathizer Date Posted: Fri, Mar 15, 2002 at 11:17:32 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The flesh is not weak and it is normal to have sexual urges. The cult is weak. Good on you for your confession. Are you a former Catholic?

Subject: Well that's refreshing From: Richard To: Former Instructor Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 19:41:05 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Refreshing honesty that is. Thanks for telling the story and I hope it helps relieve a bit of the guilt. The two of you were consenting adults but it's good of you to cop to the violation of ethics. It was probably emphasized in your Instructor Training because some of your predecessors had similar liasons. That was the word in Denver anyway. 'That feeling' was certainly attractive and seductive. It's what got many of us hooked in the first place. It also sounds like it wasn't really K she was after so maybe you saved her from years of servitude. I confessed on the forum awhile back to having several ashram affairs. At the time it was a mix of forbidden fruit, sacred cow and an open, loving environment. Ashram lust was fairly commonplace, in Denver anyway, especially after M and M got married. After all, we're only human.

Subject: Bless you my son From: gerry To: Former Instructor Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 18:21:55 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ...her lovely olive complexion and gorgeous looks, her beautiful busty shape, great eyes and lips. Beautiful, sexy speech patterns. Just a great total package. It just happened. It was great sex! Super! Now for your penance sing six Arti's, four Twameva's and get me her telephone number...

Subject: Re: Bless you my son From: Bolly Shri To: gerry Date Posted: Fri, Mar 15, 2002 at 07:05:08 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: My first introduction to the cult was at a house sorry ashram in norf london, Ashokanand pre brylcreem and suits was sitting glowing with divine light in an arm chair. He looked quite gorgeos, so I decided the atraction was not to the spiritual life and went away only to return a year later when the mahatmas were a little bit more frumpy apart from the beautifull saris. The person who took me to the first visit was then warning me off the whole thing. If only I had listened to my friend and not the fat boy life would have been very different Bolly Shri

Subject: Why don't Abi & Susan Take Legal Action From: OTS To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 16:30:20 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Here are exceprts from yesterday's Washington Post. My question: How come Abi and Susan don't hire a U.S. lawyer who specializes in these types of cases and file a legal complaint here (regarding their childhood sexual assualts by Mahatma Jagdeo), since EV is headquartered in the U.S.? Is there some statute of limitations question? Something else? Thanks. If they get lawyers, then they don't ever have to speak with the other side in the matter again until deposition or trial. By Pamela Ferdinand Special to The Washington Post Wednesday, March 13, 2002; Page A01 BOSTON, March 12 -- The Archdiocese of Boston has agreed to pay up to $30 million to 86 people who accused defrocked priest John J. Geoghan of child molestation, an attorney for the plaintiffs said today. 'This is not happy money,' said Mitchell Garabedian, flanked in his downtown office by four somber men who said Geoghan abused them as boys. 'This is blood money.' The settlement puts to rest a highly publicized group of lawsuits that helped foment a national crisis in the Roman Catholic Church. But it does not resolve the problems facing the archdiocese -- where scores of alleged victims continue to surface, claiming sexual abuse by Geoghan and other priests -- or for the church as a whole, which is confronting a wave of similar cases around the country. This agreement, however, could serve as a model for resolving future claims, Garabedian said. The archdiocese agreed not to require plaintiffs to sign confidentiality agreements, a practice that has allowed it to conceal abuse allegations in the past. Church officials also agreed not to seek to obtain personal information about plaintiffs. . . . Today's settlement does not represent the largest amount of money involved in a clerical sex abuse case. In the 1990s, the Archdiocese of Santa Fe, N.M., paid more than $50 million to settle 45 cases of sexual abuse in which Jason Sigler was accused, and the church paid $36.5 million to settle abuse claims against former priest Rudy Kos. Besides the possibility of new lawsuits against him from alleged victims who continue to come forward, Geoghan, 66, was convicted of child molestation last month and began serving a nine- to 10-year sentence. He faces one more criminal trial for indecent assault and battery of a child. As news of today's settlement spread, David Clohessy, national director of the Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests (SNAP) in St. Louis, commended Geoghan's victims for speaking out against an institution long cloaked in secrecy. 'Because of their courage, the consistent pattern of covering up for pedophile priests has been exposed,' Clohessy said. But while secular authorities have become more vigilant, he added, 'It's naive to think it's going to fundamentally make a difference in how the church handles abuse allegations.' Chancellor David Smith, who works as the archdiocese's chief financial officer, told the Associated Press that the archdiocese -- now in the midst of a $300 million capital campaign -- will pay for the settlements through a combination of insurance money, the sale of assets and private donations.

Subject: Re: Why don't Abi & Susan Take Legal Action From: Bolly Shri To: OTS Date Posted: Fri, Mar 15, 2002 at 07:08:14 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: England has no statute of limitations on child abuse cases Bolly shri

Subject: not a leaf moves?? [nt] From: David Smith ??? To: OTS Date Posted: Fri, Mar 15, 2002 at 03:58:36 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: I can't speak for Abi From: Susan To: OTS Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 20:59:13 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: These things are really tricky to talk about on the web. I can tell you when I read about those cases the only thing I think that would work for a case this old to be 'winnable' and lawsuits are not fun, would be to have a similar number of victims speaking forward. There is strength in numbers. I have no doubt Jagdeo has a huge number of victims, but unless we were to get some mainstream press, we probably could not find most of the victims. Abi and I both know other victims who are not willing to come forward, and I absolutely respect that for some people it is too painful and scary to do so.

Subject: Maharaji's new name, and EV's function From: JHB To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 13:56:02 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: cq kindly pointed out below that Elan Vital's website, on the Maharaji page, says 'Prem Rawat, a.k.a. Maharaji'. This is big news so I though it deserved a new thread. Thanks, Chris. Also, Elan Vital's function, according to its website is:- 'Elan Vital Inc. produces and distributes materials worldwide, using its trade name Visions International. At present, these materials are enjoyed in over 80 countries, with written and oral translations provided in more than 60 languages.' Then, on the Visions International website, as pointed out below, there is no mention of any materials, in any language or country. A small lack of synchronicity, methinks. But if EV exists to produce and distribute materials, and there aren't any, what is EV all about? Perhaps someone at EV could answer this if the monitoring system is still in place. John.

Subject: Re: Maharaji's new name, and EV's function From: Salam To: JHB Date Posted: Fri, Mar 15, 2002 at 16:43:05 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Youare a Big Idiot!!!

Subject: THIS IS NOT THE REAL SALAM From: Spam PaTROLL To: Salam Date Posted: Fri, Mar 15, 2002 at 22:14:48 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: I think it is nt From: Disculta To: Spam PaTROLL Date Posted: Sat, Mar 16, 2002 at 07:46:31 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: adf

Subject: Re: I think it is nt From: Spam PaTroll To: Disculta Date Posted: Sat, Mar 16, 2002 at 09:43:55 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It sounds a lot like what Salam could write, but the real Salam complained over on the Symposium (asking Chuck to remove the imposter) that there was a fake Salam posting. The fake one over there is the same fake one here. I think that's pretty unsavory, if not rude as hell. Cheers

Subject: Maharaji on stage... From: Picture This: To: JHB Date Posted: Fri, Mar 15, 2002 at 11:12:21 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: at his next 'program' introducing himself with his new, endearing, intimate name: ''Hi, I'm Prem Rawat'' And the premies go wild! Another tactic to endear the remnants of his shrinking cult.

Subject: Re: Maharaji on stage... From: Salam To: Picture This: Date Posted: Fri, Mar 15, 2002 at 16:45:17 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Maybe you go wild!!!Why should the Premies?

Subject: New article on EPO From: Jean-Michel To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 13:12:32 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Fifth Estate Magazine Article - September 14, 1973 Survives Beating by Guru's Devotees, 5th Estate Reporter in Good Shape Teen-age Guru's Secret 'Divine Light' Exotic Religious Techniques Exposed Readers' Letters to Fifth Estate Magazine

Subject: Re: New article on EPO From: Salam To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Fri, Mar 15, 2002 at 16:53:00 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Fuck your sister!!!

Subject: Someone is using Salam's name From: Spam PaTROLL To: Salam Date Posted: Fri, Mar 15, 2002 at 22:13:56 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: This slob is using Salam's name; it's not the one and only real Salam.

Subject: Re: New article on EPO From: Salam To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Fri, Mar 15, 2002 at 16:47:43 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Where are you?

Subject: Maha reveals truth on my web site! From: Sir Dave :p To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 12:10:05 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: From And It Is Divine www.geocities.com/lord_haharaji/Hoho/Gallery/index.htm freeland.mybravenet.com/Pics/mahainterest.jpg

Subject: He is adored From: Silvia To: Sir Dave :p Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 13:33:53 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'm glad you brought this photo/subject up; it is known that premies are in denial, or confused about maharalard's identity. What a mistery, eh? Who is the Lard? The premies/devotees got it I think. Maharalard is still Lord in 2002. All the premies I know think maharalard is the LORD, more, God incarnated and that they are connected with him, somehow. All depend in his grace, feel week, neurotic, and dependant. They feel totally powerlees and lost without contacting the master/Lard/Lord, specially when they have not seen him for a long time. The dependency most (well, all the ones i know, many, all of them really)of them have is obvious, and all of you can back me up on that because when we were premies we were TAUGHT to think like that. The words in my vocabulary I used in my daily basis became all focused on K and how horrible the world was. Only in 'HIS' world was worth living, whatever that meant. So, what the cult is about is that ONE is ready to rule and direct and the rest are ready to follow...the dream of the Lard: HE IS MASTER. Look at that photo! How many times did I kissed maharalard feet? Too many to remember, or count them, that to proof, kiss here and there that it's a cult. A human being kissing in submission the feet of another. COMMON! Independently of all the excuses premies may have all the devotion trip points to ONE direction and that is CULT. Those were neurotic days, nonsense!

Subject: Re: He is adored From: Sir Dave To: Silvia Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 14:48:51 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: That's very true Sylvia. All the premies that I know of who are still premies, believe that Maha is God. By the way, the divine truth that Maha revealed in this pic is that while he is being worshipped by a premie, he is ogling a sexy blonde girl. That's where his real interest lies.

Subject: An honest premie speaks on LG! From: JHB To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 07:55:19 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Someone called Mac Surfer posted this on LG. I must admit it's the only position a premie can take these days and stay a premie. So anyway, here's what MS said:- Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 05:49:49 (EST) Original: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 01:10:05 (EST) Posted by: MS Recipient: JHB Email Address: Not Provided Browser Type: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.0; Mac_PowerPC) Subject: No. I talk - you listen Message: Maharaji is an incarnation of God and he most definitely deserves all the worship he gets. What he has done over 30 years to elevate the consciousness of the individual is incalculable. I also consider my self an incarnation of sorts, but not one so dedicated and focussed on sharing it around the world. I'd wager I get more destracted by dumbass things as well. The psychological effect on those sincere people who really tried to listen to him? A healthy blessing, the best. If I were you, I would be a lot more concerned about those insincere people who really didn't listen to him. Yes, I will calmly debate. Though I have noticed a somewhat scarcity of calmness on these forums. However, my community has encouraged me to take a look, so here I am. You won't find me on F7. I've heard they attack anyone who dares say they like and admire Maharaji. If you're going to ask questions, there's a couple you needn't bother with. I don't care how many chick, drugs and booze fests ANYONE attends. I do the same things and still consider myself a conscious, worthwhile person with plenty of good things to offer and share. Neither am I concerned with the wild and crazy guru followers who've fucked up over the years. Sorry, but I never signed on as a Jesus clone whose going to take on the suffering of the whole world and weep and gnash my teeth over the ills that befall those around me. Hit and run? Forget it! I seriously wounded a fellow with a rock once but allowed one of my subordinates to take the rap. That was just the pecking order at the time. No shame, no blame. Now, any real questions?

Subject: to like and admire Maharaji From: wolfie To: JHB Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 11:35:43 (EST) Email Address: none Message: Hi, all I can say it is a psychological phenomen. The Premies - and I was one for a long time - are blinded on one eye. They think they are conscious because they think they understand what M is talking about, and they think they understand it because they get high on a special emotion. They enjoy this emotion and when we enjoy something we think this is allright. But this is all so far I can see a narcistic game. Someone on the thron tells you, that you are beautiful an graced, that it is a special grace that you have recieved this wonderful knowledge and that the people who have recieved this knowledge are in one way special people. The narcistic person is very pleased to hear this wonderful words because it fills a unrealised emptiness and it really feels so good not to feell this emtptiness and loneliness for an hour or two. On the stage there is the activ narcist and in the audience there are sitting the passiv narcistic ones. The activ one wants admiration and thankfullness and the passiv one is ready to give whatever is needed not to feel the inner emptiness. There is this feeling of oness, the feeling that he speaks only to me and this has a magic touch. But this is what always happens when special mental conditions meet together and today I say when people wíth the same neurotic condition come together. So far the thing works, has worked, works and will work. There are many examples in history. Leaders and followers. Our hope was that Maharaji is a divine person, a realised soul, a god incarnation, the empodiement of love, but this only came out of our already deluded minds, when we follow someone, then it must be minimum a divine person. It was so easy to fool us, specially Maharji himself is so narcistic that he himself believed or still believes that he is somoene supirior. We waited for him, that is true, I got high on emotion (bliss) I felt we are one. So far all this is not touched by the normal human life, everything is okay , it is like the man who fell in love with the TV-Star and refused al other women. So far we stay in our undevelopt narcistic state of mind Maharaji does a wonderful job he gives us the drug we want and we need, the danger about this drug is that we don't realise that it has the same function like a drug. Most of Maharaji's premies have difficult personalities and this creats more or less suffering, he has a difficult pesonality too and he promises us, look people life can be simple, and when life is simple than everything is okay. He has the same longing like we cause he suffers the same difficult personality as his follwers. So far we don't get information about his complicated life full of lies and arrogance, we still can believe that he can teach us something that releases us from our difficulties we all have more or less. But in the moment I see that all this is a game that had happened alreay many times between followers and leaders and we often wonder where games like this end up. Premies are allowed to look evrywhere but not in the narcistic corner of our minds. Premies really should try to understand themselfs in relation to people without knowlege and they should see that they still suffer like average people. The only thing is the emtonal high they get when they leader tells his deciples that they are wonderful, graced, that life only is worth- while with a master and the knowledge the master gives. So I stop hear now, premies will say: Oh this guy is in a complet mind trap. Yes I know that my perception is a part of my problems, but at least I have got rid of one problem and that is Maharaji from Malibu, nomore probagation, no more videos, I'm free to suffer and I don't have to be ashamed when I have a problem or when my life is not perfect in tune with Mr. Goober and his plans. back in time and space ..............Wolfie

Subject: Yep! A narcosis of narcism. Well said, Wolfie /nt From: Carl To: wolfie Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 16:15:27 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yowza

Subject: J-M: *****Best OF***** From: gerry To: wolfie Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 11:51:05 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Excellent post, wolfie and a clear explanation of the 'mechanics' of the situation. Folie de deux is the term that applies to the relationship of Maha and his followers, I believe (if I haven't slaughtered the French language, that is.) I've taken the liberty of touching up the spelling a little and break it into more paragraphs, but I must say your command of the English language is very good. Hi, All I can say it is a psychological phenomena. The Premies - and I was one for a long time - are blinded on one eye. They think they are conscious because they think they understand what M is talking about, and they think they understand it because they get high on a special emotion. They enjoy this emotion and when we enjoy something we think this is alright. But this is all so far I can see a narcissistic game. Someone on the throne tells you, that you are beautiful an graced, that it is a special grace that you have received this wonderful knowledge and that the people who have received this knowledge are in one way special people. The narcissistic person is very pleased to hear these wonderful words because it fills a unrealized emptiness and it really feels so good not to feel this emptiness and loneliness for an hour or two. On the stage there is the active narcissist and in the audience there are sitting the passive narcissistic ones. The active one wants admiration and thankfulness and the passive one is ready to give whatever is needed not to feel the inner emptiness. There is this feeling of oness, the feeling that he speaks only to me and this has a magic touch. But this is what always happens when special mental conditions meet together and today I say when people with the same neurotic conditions come together. So far the thing works, has worked, works and will work. There are many examples in history. Leaders and followers. Our hope was that Maharaji is a divine person, a realized soul, a god incarnation, the embodiment of love, but this only came out of our already deluded minds, when we follow someone, then it must be minimum a divine person. It was so easy to fool us, especially Maharji himself is so narcissistic that he himself believed or still believes that he is someone superior. We waited for him, which is true, I got high on emotion (bliss) I felt we are one. So far all this is not touched by the normal human life, everything is okay, it is like the man who fell in love with the TV-Star and refused al other women. So far we stay in our undeveloped narcissistic state of mind Maharaji does a wonderful job he gives us the drug we want and we need, the danger about this drug is that we don't realize that it has the same function like a drug. Most of Maharaji's premies have difficult personalities and this creates more or less suffering, he has a difficult personality too and he promises us, look people life can be simple, and when life is simple than everything is okay. He has the same longing like we cause he suffers the same difficult personality as his followers. So far we don't get information about his complicated life full of lies and arrogance, we still can believe that he can teach us something that releases us from our difficulties we all have more or less. But in the moment I see that all this is a game that has happened already many times between followers and leaders and we often wonder where games like this end up. Premies are allowed to look everywhere but not in the narcissistic corner of our minds. Premies really should try to understand themselves in relation to people without knowledge and they should see that they still suffer like average people. The only thing is the emotional high they get when they leader tells his disciples that they are wonderful, graced, that life only is worth- while with a master and the knowledge the master gives. So I stop hear now, premies will say: Oh this guy is in a complete mind trap. Yes I know that my perception is a part of my problems, but at least I have got rid of one problem and that is Maharaji from Malibu, no more propagation, no more videos, I'm free to suffer and I don't have to be ashamed when I have a problem or when my life is not perfect in tune with Mr. Goober and his plans. Back in time and space ...Wolfie

Subject: Re: J-M: *****Best OF***** From: wolfie To: gerry Date Posted: Mon, Mar 18, 2002 at 06:09:24 (EST) Email Address: none Message: Hi Gerry, thanks for doing that. I'm very insecure with the english language. Anyway it is a problem for me, because most of the english I speak is very influenced by 2 million Satsangs from Mr.Goober. ......ciao.....wolfie

Subject: thanks for that, Gerry From: cq To: gerry Date Posted: Fri, Mar 15, 2002 at 15:28:02 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Your transliteration should help a few readers get past the occasional idiosyncrasies of Wolfie's original (which has a certain raw germanicness - if that's the right word - that appeals to me, having formerly been in a lengthy relationship with one particularly beautiful woman who was German by birth). But the main point of his post - the narcissism that is an inherent part of premiehood - that I think is, above all, what keeps people stuck in the Goo's cult. To admit they'd been mistaken - well, that's not a Narcissist's way, is it?

Subject: Re: thanks for that, Gerry From: gerry To: cq Date Posted: Fri, Mar 15, 2002 at 17:05:39 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You're welcome, Chris, but I just ran spellcheck and broke it into afew more paragraphs. I too like the 'Germanisms' and wouldn't think of changing them. :)

Subject: Re: An honest premie speaks on LG! From: Jethro To: JHB Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 08:32:19 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: What makes this, yet another anonymous, premie any differenrt from the others. He is just another catweasel. A floating entity with no human values. Just like m. Hmmm well he is just like m in that he considers himself an 'incarnation'. 'Hit and run? Forget it!' who wants to address the issue of one insignicant young man losing his life, let alone the issue of child abuse and rape??...let's just talk about THAT feeling Oh of course I forgot 'incarnations' are above human values. Mac is just another cultist pissing in the wind. You'de think there's be at least one or 2 who would post under their own names and show some integrity. cheers Jethro

Subject: Integrity and human values From: PatD To: Jethro Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 16:16:58 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I've just read the full conversation between JHB & this guy on LG & am appalled. This Mac is a dangerous man. Amoral,intelligent,superior,& above all deluded (or maybe that should be,above all amoral) He's lucky though & not because of his master's grace either. He's lucky that he lives in a society where you can set out your stall as a complete bastard & get away with it. maybe he wouldn't feel so blissful if he lived somewhere where complete bastards look at each other through crosshairs. Or maybe he would.

Subject: Re: An honest premie speaks on LG! From: John Smith To: Jethro Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 08:47:29 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: What and trust you lot?

Subject: Re: Trust From: JHB To: John Smith Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 09:19:54 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: This idea that premies are unsafe here if they post under their own names needs to be addressed. The only instance of any premie being put under any pressure because his name was published on the ex-premie forum was Charles Glasser after he had put up a website attacking ex-premies as mentally ill drug addicts, alongside extracts from ex-premies' personal published journeys. And all that happened to Charles is that someone contacted him at his work address making an innocent enquiry about the allegations on the site. We've also written a very polite letter to Ron Geaves about his part in a published video. Ex-premies on the other hand have been attacked by anonymous premies, including Charles before he was outed, and those behind the CAC site. But regardless of premie or ex-premie, CAC is the worst that's happened. No premie has ever been threatened, stalked, harrassed, libeled, slandered, or outed to their employers. No, the worst that happens to premies is that we argue with them. We attack concepts and arguments that, in our view, need to be attacked. Some of us do get frustrated and do occasionally express that frustration, but the majority of us are polite if challenging. Experience on these forums proves that any premie who comes here, willing to sincerely discuss their view of Maharaji, gets a robust, but fair, hearing, and that includes those very few who have posted under their real names such as Erika and Sandy. So, the reality is, you can trust ex-premies. Rumours to the contrary are simply false. John.

Subject: Re: Trust From: John Smith To: JHB Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 15:32:01 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yeah ..Right......And I'm Snow White........

Subject: Re: Trust From: JHB To: John Smith Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 17:06:03 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dear Snow White, Which part of this is wrong? Seriously, can you answer? John.

Subject: disappearing premies From: Livia To: JHB Date Posted: Fri, Mar 15, 2002 at 08:19:18 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Funny how premies suddenly disappear when you ask them a straightforward question. Or they return later and start talking about something else - just like politicians in fact - or anyone else in the business of spin. Love, Livia

Subject: Re: disappearing premies From: John Smith To: Livia Date Posted: Fri, Mar 15, 2002 at 10:54:17 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Ever thought we might just not be shagged to keep answering crap?

Subject: Re: disappearing premies From: Livia To: John Smith Date Posted: Fri, Mar 15, 2002 at 11:16:01 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: How eruditely you write, John. My point is that the disappearing always seems to occur at those pertinent moments. With regards, Livia

Subject: Re: disappearing premies From: Lesley To: Livia Date Posted: Fri, Mar 15, 2002 at 14:55:14 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Livia, It is annoying isn't it. I was pretty certain R2 was another incarnation of the regular attendees, decided it was most likely David Roupell. But, but, but, you can't be sure, and then I thought I caught the whiff of a true believer, so I copied the post off, took the time to reply seriously and carefully to it, and voila, no response. Admittedly, I can't be, er, shagged to think about it for more than a passing moment, but it surprises me that they write these posts posing as the genuine article, a premie who is seeking to understand the truth of what they are involved in. That was a good thread, Livia, love Lesley

Subject: Re: disappearing premies From: Livia To: Lesley Date Posted: Sun, Mar 17, 2002 at 12:07:50 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks, Lesley. I think the same problem is beginning to occur in a debate I've been having with R2 down below. He tends to ignore the questions that are just too difficult to answer. I can understand it, though; I used to do the same thing myself when I was a practising premie. Didn't we all! Love, Livia

Subject: Re: disappearing premies From: John Smith To: Lesley Date Posted: Fri, Mar 15, 2002 at 15:21:39 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Genuine article ? with a name like John Smith? Is there something in the Byron Shire water or is irony something removed?

Subject: A perfect master on perfect masters From: Livia To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 04:39:50 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'By their fruits you shall know them. The signs of the Perfect Master are self control, love, discrimination, detachment and lack of partiality. He is without stubbornness. He is peaceful, far from anger, and treats all men equally. At all times He is absorbed in the Holy Word. He is love and affection personified.' Shri Hans Ji Maharaji Maharaj said this. I posted it on a thread down below but think I'll put it here too. With love, Livia

Subject: Re: A perfect master on perfect masters From: **** To: Livia Date Posted: Fri, Mar 15, 2002 at 16:55:11 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Nice

Subject: In memory of Richard Matacz.... From: Mel To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 01:53:05 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: who passed away in Thailand in a road accident recently. Some Australian premies and ex's may have known Richard. A noble soul. Mel

Subject: Journey Entry Third Installment From: Steve Quint To: All Date Posted: Wed, Mar 13, 2002 at 20:33:17 (EST) Email Address: the_avenger55@hotmail.com Message: I haven't smoked since last Thursday night (was smoking 20 - 30 cigarettes a day) and had hernia surgery last Friday - it's been a crazy week, believe me. I've just shown a friend some of my recent writings along with some of the encouragement I've received to continue writing and gain more insight in doing so. It's going to get harder in the next installments because I'm the type of person that wants to know why I/we were taken for a ride by someone who has claimed to be the ultimate dispeller of darkness/revealer of light of our age and has only seemed to have profitted materially by doing so. It's frightening to me - why did I have a father who was critical to an extraordinary degree. After years in ACOA (Adult Children Of Alcoholics, a twelve-step program) and much therapy, I still don't have a satisfying answer. So I have to go slowly and tread on ground, much of which resembles my childhood which is like a dead-end, analytically. Interestingly my mom just told me that she and a therapist she spoke to think I need to write about my childhoold as well, but I wonder whether this is the place. Probably not, so I'll find a proper place to do so, maybe just in a word processer. I'll also be updating the journey entry on E.P.O. so that anyone who wants to will be able to refer to what's already been written. Here goes: I received 'knowledge' from Nadine Lebas in August 1977. In her selection she asked who was doing service. I said I was, even though I was only donating money. Here's a strange example of how mental interpretation is related to the supposedly spiritual practice of 'knowledge'. What if I had donated only ten cents a week and continued to do so after 'receiving knowledge'. Would I be entitled to 'realize knowledge' (does anyone have a definition of what 'realizing knowledge' means)? A week later I moved to London Ontario to do a master's degree in economics at The University Of Western Ontario. The first semester was interrupted by two analogous events - Hans Jayanti 1977 in Rome and my grandfather's funeral. I felt obliged to go to both for similar reasons - family obligation and extended family obligation. In Rome I sat in the hotel room for about a week as it must of been cheaper to book charter flights with longer turnaround than to save on hotels. Anyway I missed about a week and a half to two weeks of school and failed the semester. (By the way my only nephew, Ariel son of Arnie Lade and my sister Harriet Quint/Lade, both ex-premies, is right in the middle of the second semester in his masters of arts in economics at The London School Of Economics - there must be a God for such amazing coincidences to occur. There was always a paradox in that nobody in my family or the premie world gave a damn whethere I completed the degree, but of course my income-earning ability was appreciated later. When I returned to Montreal, I went back to work for my cousin and his alcololic parter, two chartered accountants. Their constant fighting echoed my parents' constant fighting. The firm eventually fell apart but I moved to another accounting firm in the fall of 1978. I worked as Divine Light Mission Montreal's volunteer accountant as well, with Georges Legere as my supervisor - he was district financial manager. The next part gets good and very sad - the beginning of my active mental illness, confinement in a psychiatric ward with virtally no premie visiting in the spring of 1979 (with extremely insignificant exceptions), physical impairment (broken bones through psychotic adventure which still affect me). And to think - I returned to the programs around 1983 and continued going until fairly recently). What's wrong with me to be as loyal as I was? More to come as soon as possible. Steve

Subject: Re: Journey Entry Third Installment From: Livia To: Steve Quint Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 03:29:06 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Steve, nice to see you back here. Even though I don't know you I was wondering how it had gone with your hernia surgery - glad to see you have survived to tell the tale and are on typing form again! Your journey is really interesting and well written; hope you make it through in one piece - we're all here for you on this wicked Forum 7, full of thick deluded ex-premies who just didn't know what was good for them. (For 'thick' definition, see Moles post above) BTW, I was interested to see you mention a couple of weeks ago that it was a programme with Charanand that was the final drip for you. What happened? I always remembered Charanand as a beautiful soul, although I must say that the last couple of times I saw him, he seemed to have lost most of his original sparkle - he seemed quite troubled, I thought. Anyway, all the best for a speedy recovery and I look forward to reading you lots more here, as I'm sure we all do! With love, Livia

Subject: Journey Entry Third And A Half Installment From: Steve Quint To: Livia Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 16:05:05 (EST) Email Address: the_avenger55@hotmail.com Message: I felt disturbed the day after the program with charanand and went out and did some drugs - not the right response. I did not find him very inspiriring, inspired or enlightened - just a glib speaker. My story to date as far as involvement with maha is concerned is: -Attraction to good advertising -Attraction to intelligent and slippery and charismatic mahatmas who seem to know something that most people don't, i.e. seem to have the 'secret knowledge that they talk about' -Follow the direction of the community coordinators and other local yokels when the mahatmas, later initiators, weren't around. At some point, probabably at the very begininnig, it was the 'blind leading the blind'. -Blame myself when things don't go right - this is lethal. You've got the perfect knowledge and you still screwed up? You must be really fucked up, in contrast to the divine mahatmas, coordinators maharaji and others around him who are so perfect. Charanand seemed to be reciting a prepared speech when I saw him. Something bothered me about the program, but my reaction to go out and do drugs wasn't right. Gotta find other ways of finding peace. Steve

Subject: I really enjoy your writing, Steve From: PatC To: Steve Quint Date Posted: Fri, Mar 15, 2002 at 04:25:59 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I guess I'll have to write my Journey like you - in instalments. You're always welcome to post your childhood story on Chuck's forum The Symposium. BUT, one of the reasons that I enjoy your writing so much is that it is so naked and raw. I would worry a bit that you bared yourself too much for your own good but I would respect that and hope others would too. Thanks again for sharing your writings. I hope writing does as much good for you as it does for me. It sure helps me to clarify my thoughts.

Subject: Arne Lade's here in Vic From: Jim To: Steve Quint Date Posted: Wed, Mar 13, 2002 at 23:33:18 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Steve, Do you ever see or hear from Arne? I remember all the Lade brothers when they first started coming around just before or after Millenium. Arne's a new age healer type. We talked a bit when I moved here 11 years ago. He didn't quite see Maharaji the way I did, him being of the 'nothing's a mistake' school of thought and me being more along the lines of 'you gotta be kidding'. Good story. Keep it coming.

Subject: Steve, I have to say... From: gerry To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 19:08:02 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You're a damn good read. Thanks.

Subject: Captain Rawat and the Co-pilot From: AJW To: All Date Posted: Wed, Mar 13, 2002 at 17:23:34 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I had a discrete meal with a PAM recently, who, after a couple of bottles of wine, told me a funny story about Captain Rawat and his co-pilot. As you may know, Rawat is very touchy about revealing his secret identity as a cult leader, when flying his private jets around the world. He likes to pretend he’s an airline pilot. This way he goes through the Crew Gate when he arrives, and avoids embarrassing searches and questions. This is particularly useful when he lands in India. Everyone pretends the jet belongs to someone else, so he can slip into the country with the minimum of hassle. Anyway, when he’s travelling like this, he makes all the premies call him “Captain Rawat”, and nobody is allowed to even hint at his secret life as “Living Perfect Master.” Sometimes he flew, and maybe still flies, with a co-pilot who isn’t in the cult, and knows nothing of Rawats delusions of arriving on Earth with more power than Jesus and Krishna. Any premies in the presence of the co-pilot, keep up the pretence of Rawat being nothing more than a pilot. Three or four years ago, Captain Rawat flew to Australia with such a co-pilot. After arriving at Amaroo, the Captain discovered that the local newspaper planned on printing a story about him and his cult. Apparently the Captain went apeshit and threw a tantrum, threatening never to return to Australia. There was also a secondary panic in case the co-pilot saw the article and discovered the secret identity of his workmate. A solution was found. The co-pilot was sent back to America for a week or so, covering the period that the article appeared. (I think they made up an excuse, something like, “he had to collect a spare part”). This was to prevent him discovering he was flying next to the greatest incarnation of God ever to walk the Earth. Unfortunately for the Captain, when the co-pilot got back to Australia, someone showed him a copy of the article anyway. So the expensive charade was in vain, and the co-pilot found out he’d been flying with God in human form after all. Not a leaf moves…etc. Anth, laughing all the way to Passport Control.

Subject: God is your Pilot, Anth Ji From: Mahatma Coat To: AJW Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 19:54:38 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Brother Anth Ji, So nice to be reading words of wisdom from my dear brother ji. Old mahatma ji lost his glasses but a nice premie told me what you said. Correct me if I am wrong. You are telling wonderful parable of some person you call The Captain. This Captain, who I recall used to torture your dreams, was traveling on aeroplane and discovered that he?d been flying with God in human form after all. What a wonderful parable for us all. We go along through this Maya of trips and traps and one day discover that God in human form, Guru Maharaj Ji, all along has been flying us. All we have to do is let go and not only will Sant Ji rock us in His Divine Swing, He will also be pulling our joy stick to fly our plane. Such a beautiful story Anth Ji. I thank Guru Ji that you have finally stopped obsessing over that ghost of a bastard captain and seen the Light. Like you so wisely said, not a leaf moves . . . Your brother at the Lotus Feet, Mahatma Coat

Subject: How much did it cost? From: JHB To: AJW Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 03:30:42 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The aviation fuel, air traffic control, and landing costs for this totally pointless trip would not be insignificant, and I think it's likely that the Amaroo accounts would show those costs as travelling expenses for the main speaker. Hey premies, what do you think of the way your master spends your money? What a pillock. John.

Subject: Missed you, Anth From: Jim To: AJW Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 01:33:08 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: We were just talking, the other day, me and the little lady -- where's Anth?, she's saying. Beats me, I'm saying. And then here you are! Too much, eh? How's it?

Subject: Hi Jim From: AJW To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 04:48:40 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Jim, It's a lightning visit. My mum is seriously ill at the moment, and I'm spending lots of time up North with her, so I won't be around again for a while. Besides that, the premie who told me about the co-pilot is extremely pissed off and paranoid that I spilled the beans, so I'm in the shit too, as they told me not to put it on the forum. All I can say is an insincere 'Sorry', and seeing Catweazle hear again made me so mad, I couldn't help myself. Ah well, what the fuck. Why be scared of the truth, and what the fuck did they tell me for if it was supposed to be a secret. Anth in the doghouse.

Subject: Re: Captain Rawat and the Co-pilot From: Bai Ji To: AJW Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 00:33:31 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Anth Ji, Good to hear you again. One night M was joking with some of us how His Co-Pilot, pre flight, was sculling a glass of vodka and was in No state to fly (ha ha..) I got the impression that this was a fairly regular occurrence ya know, toss a coin, see who's the most sober. (No that's unfair and pure speculation) everyone laughed I noticed except the two people he was mainly directing this reminiscence to, one being one of his ex hostesses, her face was pretty stony. She also shared some rather blood chilling stuff with me re her In-Flight experiences. Waaay too Hard for any body to have to process in my estimation. I only hope that she and her husband are able to shake Him out of their lives eventually and move on. Anth I haven't heard from Abi, did you pass on that stuff I sent you and tell her that she can write me? I would dearly like to know if she's OK. Love Bai X

Subject: Hi Bai Ji From: AJW To: Bai Ji Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 04:51:29 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi, Yes, I sent the stuff on to Abi. I've not been in touch for a while, as I'm a bit out of the loop with emails etc at the moment, (see above). Anth the melting ice.

Subject: You can't do this! From: Sir Dave :p To: Bai Ji Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 04:35:48 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Bai Ji wrote: ''She also shared some rather blood chilling stuff with me re her In-Flight experiences. Waaay too Hard for any body to have to process in my estimation.'' Come on now, tell us what this blood chilling stuff is. We can take it, I promise!

Subject: It isn't funny From: PatD To: AJW Date Posted: Wed, Mar 13, 2002 at 20:56:49 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Since getting over(I hope)having been the sort of pillock who got suckered by the Lord of the ..etc,his real motivation in life is a fascination. It's a morbid interest I know ,but what the fuck; sussing out with a litle help from Mr.Mind what really makes him tick is both enlightening & cringe making. It's quite clear to me from your post & others on the same subject in the past,as well as various other bits of information,most recently Joe's list of his aviation qualifications,that Prem's main interest is flying. I'm sure he's really proud of himself for having achieved all those ratings. How many kids who drop out of school at 13/14 manage to suss out spherical trigonometry in later life....& that's only a part of it. Amazing what money can do in the way of 1st class tuition when time is of no object. That multi-engine commercial license he has...to keep that up you ordinarily need to be employed by an airline,because who has access to commercial airliners in order to put in the neccessary hours otherwise. Sorry...forgot about the Satguru...he floats above the limitations on an ocean of other people's cash. Then there's the commercial helicopter license....ditto. I know someone who had a private pilot's license & a commercial helicopter license(less than god's cv)at age 30 after being in the Royal Navy, where it's a full time job.So for Rawat to get all that together,he's 44 right,after throwing down the brandy,firing up the spliffs & dancing for the crowd,he can't have spent his time doing anything else much. That 1st edition of Divine Light mag,where the little bastard is wearing a pilot's uniform....shit. It's as clear as a bell with the benefit of hindsight.(& information hitherto unobtainable) Still,nice to see someone has realised their ambition in life.

Subject: Prem's main interest is flying. From: Disculta To: PatD Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 18:43:15 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: God, this is true, isn't it? What a weird thing. You know this theory that if you're a starving artist you have to get a 'taxi job' to support doing your art? (Like waiters who are really actors, etc.) How weird to have a passion for piloting and have to support it on the side by being the LOTU. This has got me giggling today. love ktd

Subject: Knew all along... From: The Co-pilot To: AJW Date Posted: Wed, Mar 13, 2002 at 19:30:26 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I saw him once at a hotel in Barcelona. He had a bumper sticker on his ass that read: 'My co-pilot is God'. I think he was on his way to an AA meeting.

Subject: ... on his way to Latvian nite? From: cq To: The Co-pilot Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 03:57:25 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'Well, God was my copilot, but then we crashed into this mountain and I had to eat him !' Latvian nite London www.ex-premie.org/papers/check_this_please.htm www.ex-premie.org/papers/Copil1.jpg

Subject: You people are REAL! From: Jennifer To: cq Date Posted: Fri, Mar 15, 2002 at 13:03:33 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Oh, my god, you people are real! I thought you were all figments of my imagination. Not really, but it's very cool to see everyone. Thanks for sharing those pics--anyone have more? Jennifer

Subject: Re: You people are REAL! From: cq To: Jennifer Date Posted: Fri, Mar 15, 2002 at 15:48:27 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: yup, at least, we think we are. (or am I only speaking for myself here?) the pic in the previous post was of Anth. However, as you no doubt can see from the pic in this post, I'm much more attractive to your type than him. Aren't I? Hmmmmmmm ... Yeah? (Austin Powers learn from me baby!) No, wait a minute, you're Jennifer, not Marolyn, ... er, ... oops www.dur.ac.uk/c.q.giles/cq_mm.jpg

Subject: Re: You people are REAL! From: Jennifer To: cq Date Posted: Fri, Mar 15, 2002 at 20:09:37 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You are hilarious and a good looking bloke, yes you are! Thanks for posting that picture. There's something so REAL about seeing what people on this forum look like. It makes all of you come to life somehow. Makes things less anonymous, too. I have a pretty good photo of me and Joe somewhere, but I don't know if he would agree to let me post it or not. Anyway, I'd need a scanner, which I still don't have. Jennifer who looks a bit like Marolyn, with longer hair--hee hee

Subject: but I really look like this: From: cq To: Jennifer Date Posted: Sat, Mar 16, 2002 at 12:30:47 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: (in my nightmares) www.dur.ac.uk/c.q.giles/BeanLaden.jpg

Subject: And It Is Divine From: Sir Dave :p To: cq Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 04:40:05 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Click on above link and then you'll see the pics listed on the left hand side. Click on the Flying Ace one to see the Maha and his co-pilot. And It Is Divine www.geocities.com/lord_haharaji/Hoho/Gallery/index.htm

Subject: he knows what's coming then? From: cq To: Sir Dave :p Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 07:06:26 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: www.geocities.com/lord_haharaji/Hoho/Gallery/Pics/Lila.jpg

Subject: Sounds awfully darned familiar... From: EBay Alert To: All Date Posted: Wed, Mar 13, 2002 at 15:50:18 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I believe this book is from the series of Remo Williams and his Master Chuin. Below is the description (wonder where the idea came from): The Destroyer #19 : Holy Terror by Warren Murphy Pinnacle Books February 1980 6th Printing 182 Pages KEEP THE FAITH! And what a mad, maniacal morality play this caper turns into! In the past Remo and Chiun have had to deal with every make of charlatan, thug, and assassin. No problem. But a revered, berobed, and bejeweled Indian Holy Man! A certified crazy like Maharaji Gupta Mahesh Dor, the Blissful Master of the International Divine Bliss Mission? Much to be concerned about. Legend has it that if a holy man is harmed within the sacred grounds of Patna, all of India will tremble and the heavens will crack. Big deal, just another troubleshoot for the boys. Then there is a death in Patna. A tremendous earthquake follows. The White House is shook up. The CIA and KKK get involved. The TV crews arrive. Hell has broken loose. But Remo and Chiun have barely begun. Things were never like this in ol' Sinanju. Or California. Oh, yes, some of the faithful depart this earthly vale--the hard way. Remo and Chiun can be so deadly serious. cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1523496363

Subject: Here is link From: Ebay Alert To: EBay Alert Date Posted: Wed, Mar 13, 2002 at 15:51:54 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1523496363 Remo Williams and Chuin take on the evil Maharaji and his Divine Bliss Mission cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1523496363

Subject: slight resemblance to anyone we know? From: cq To: Ebay Alert Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 07:10:51 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: nah, it couldn't be - he's meditating! www.urec.net/users/cobug/ebay/destroyer19.jpg

Subject: PS - the EV website now calls the Maha From: cq To: cq Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 12:44:03 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: PS - the EV website now calls the Maha by his real name: Prem Rawat! (the maharaji monicker is given as an a.k.a.) link to relevant EV webpage here www.elanvital.org/Maharaji.html

Subject: How to Survive in a Stupid Cult From: Jim To: All Date Posted: Wed, Mar 13, 2002 at 12:03:08 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: From ELK, a simple testament to a good vibe: Feeling Pat McCabe From East Kilbride, Scotland Today feels really nice Looking forward to Amaroo feels really nice That is the way I like it Nice and simple

Subject: The Art of Appreciation and Gratitude From: Jim To: Jim Date Posted: Wed, Mar 13, 2002 at 12:04:49 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Maybe premies can start doing these pieces for the corporate reception room market. Watch out for the Staples www.enjoyinglife.org/ENJOYLIFE/knowledge.nsf/frame_sets/English_Site_Letters

Subject: Re: The Art of Appreciation and Gratitude From: Mucho Gracias To: Jim Date Posted: Wed, Mar 13, 2002 at 22:12:30 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Enjoying Life: Expressions I've never liked computers. I feel I probably should've been born 100 years ago. But they are such a great way to keep in touch that along with everything else, I thank Maharaji for this too. Mary Largess Wells, ME, USA

Subject: credit where credit is due From: cq To: Mucho Gracias Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 07:13:36 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hmmmmm ... made me wonder if there are any other things you don't like that you thank M for? EPO perhaps?

Subject: Sorry, it's Blanca Oraa's 'Expression' From: Jim To: Jim Date Posted: Wed, Mar 13, 2002 at 12:07:15 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Check out the picture. Here's the text: Self-portrait Through these mixed self-portraits I have discovered for myself the simplest way to express what has been evolving in my life since I have received Knowledge. Each self-portrait contains four sections representing my real self as shown to me through the four techniques of Knowledge. Within these sections, I have placed many small pieces of paper in different colours and sizes which portray different aspects of my life. As I created each section; I chose to fasten all the different aspects together with staples because of the intensity, impact and power of each breath on them. These life-giving, incredible gifts fasten me to the miracle of life. This is my entelechy in action. Is that a cult-approved word? Does Maharaji know it? 'My life is a straight line written with the words: Thank You.'

Subject: Entelechy From: PatD To: Jim Date Posted: Wed, Mar 13, 2002 at 21:39:59 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Rawat used that word several years ago during one of his guffs. It's used in philosophy,apparently,to mean realisation/perfection,I'd never heard it before. The Great One must've been bored out of his skull,flipping through a dictionary,before that event.

Subject: Entelechy and how he learned the word From: The Maharaji of Malibu To: PatD Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 05:54:29 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I have it on good authority that he learned the word while perusing an old copy of Readers' Digest. Apparently, it is agya to keep a copy in each of his many golden throne rooms.

Subject: Re: Entelechy From: McDuck To: PatD Date Posted: Wed, Mar 13, 2002 at 22:27:18 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: According to Merriam-Webster online: Main Entry: en·tel·e·chy Pronunciation: en-'te-l&-kE, in- Function: noun Inflected Form(s): plural -chies Etymology: Late Latin entelechia, from Greek entelecheia, from entelEs complete (from en- 2en- + telos end) + echein to have Date: 1603 1 : the actualization of form-giving cause as contrasted with potential existence 2 : a hypothetical agency not demonstrable by scientific methods that in some vitalist doctrines is considered an inherent regulating and directing force in the development and functioning of an organism I reckon the same guy who explained 'elan vital' passed it on to him. Vitalist doctrines, indeed

Subject: thanks, Jim, for... From: Gregg To: Jim Date Posted: Wed, Mar 13, 2002 at 14:48:16 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ...providing this link. all this time I thought you were writing parodies of premie poetry and passing them off as the real deal. Nah, not really. Those delightful little snippets are parody-proof. How can you get any more simple-minded than those 'Expressions?' Right. You can't. These things are a function of cultic dumbing-down of all the aesthetic, intellectual, moral, and, yes, spiritual faculties of the human being. And this latest link of yours proves that one's abilities in the visual arts atrophies as surely as does one's versifying talents.

Subject: Portraits From: Opie To: Jim Date Posted: Wed, Mar 13, 2002 at 13:06:57 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Small bits of paper, staples, self-portraits, miracles Hmmmm? Yep, pretty much sums it all up! :)

Subject: Another person discovers From: Sir Dave To: All Date Posted: Wed, Mar 13, 2002 at 06:58:11 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Please click on above link. Richard's post - 20 Years Later www.hotboards.com/plus/plus.mirage?who=anythinggoes&id=13753.12574075348

Subject: Visions has SHRUNK From: Joe To: All Date Posted: Tues, Mar 12, 2002 at 21:10:44 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Visions International is no longer selling video tapes, or even watches and teacups. All that's left, after the fire sale I guess, is a satellite schedule (once a week showing video tapes of earler 'events,' heavily edited I'm sure). I'm really upset because I wanted to buy a copy of the Passages video to send to Dr. Ron Geaves, at Chester College in England, so he can watch himself participate in what appear to be bald-faced lies. Oh, yeah, there is also a section on the website where you can make 'donations' but that's it. Nothing else there. I'm sure those watches that remind you to breathe are now collector's items. Another piece of evidence of the incredibly shrinking cult. Visions www.visionsinternational.org/

Subject: C'mon Joe,we know why you're upset... From: La-ex To: Joe Date Posted: Wed, Mar 13, 2002 at 09:54:20 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It's because you had your heart set on some of those 'every breath' coffee cups to go along with that shri hans memorial plate that you've got on your wall. You can level with us Joe, it's all 'holy company' here..... I know it's hard to deal with disappointment like that, but I'm going to see if I can pull some strings and get you a deal on some of those 50 foot swans left over from millenium. I think they're still in Houston somewhere..... Oh yeah, a few honey oat bars and a leisure suit from divine sales might make you feel better too... Best wishes, La-ex

Subject: Re: C'mon Joe,we know why you're upset... From: Joe To: La-ex Date Posted: Wed, Mar 13, 2002 at 19:13:13 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I wonder if those big swans still exist. I wouldn't be surprised if some premie, or ex-premie more likely, has them buried in their basement or garage someplace. I do miss the honey oat bars, though. As awful as they were, there is nothing like peanut butter, honey and rolled oats, all mashed together in compressed into squares, to bring a smile to your face and nectar dripping down your throat! :)

Subject: Still good after 29 years From: Richard To: Joe Date Posted: Wed, Mar 13, 2002 at 19:58:25 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: A couple o' these and a glass of that aged apple cider before the 55 gallon drum explodes. Hmmmmm, such grace. Millennium Bar 64.45.46.159/photo/MilleniumBar.jpg

Subject: Wow, where'd you get that image, Richard? From: Joy To: Richard Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 04:18:37 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: That brought back a lot of memories! I thought they were kind of good, actually, wouldn't mind having one to munch on these days in place of chocolate. Hey maybe that's a new marketing strategy for Visions? If SoHo sodas can make a million, maybe millennium bars can, too? The title's appropriate, somehow. Also, remember all those little baggies of cashews and raisins left over from Millennium festival? We ate from those for months, also. Seems like only yesterday . . .

Subject: From the gettin' place From: Richard To: Joy Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 11:42:00 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It was sent to me by a FOF (Friend of Forum). Yes I remember the nuts and raisins very well. That brings to mind another of my early drips. The family that packaged the nuts and raisins, fronted the whole deal to DLM. Post Millennium, DLM never paid them along with many other businesses. I heard that family went bankrupt because the size of the order. More of the Lord's Divine Lila, eh?

Subject: If it's any help, I could give you mine From: Jim To: La-ex Date Posted: Wed, Mar 13, 2002 at 11:14:35 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I've got one of those very beautiful swan-motif coffee cups on my desk. I use it for pens but I hear it holds a very beautiful cup of coffee. Yours for a price, Joe. Honestly. (You pay shipping).

Subject: You aren't serious, are you? From: Joe To: Jim Date Posted: Wed, Mar 13, 2002 at 19:15:23 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Do you really have one of those coffee cups? Didn't they cost something like $40 each? I know you wouldn't have bought something like that. Was it a gift from a premie, trying to entice you back into the cult with expensive gifts? But I'm afraid I'm not into the swan motif, though. It's been done to death, you know. What is it now? Southwestern? No that was the 80s. Seems to be art deco that's in these days.

Subject: Excuse me?! Yes I AM serious From: Jim To: Joe Date Posted: Wed, Mar 13, 2002 at 19:23:24 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Joe, I've got the cup because Bill, oh sorry, bill, sent it to me. And Joe, what can I tell you? It's very beautiful and does indeed make a delightful addition to any collection of cult paraphanelia and chitchkas. And 'in', Joe? I don't do 'in'. This is timeless beauty, we're talking. You want it or not? Because if you don't, I'm going to offer it on LG. Let's see, how about $45 and another, um, $20 for shipping? Think about it.

Subject: Yiddish Lessons for Jim From: OTS To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 14:33:50 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: chitchkas What the hell, Jim? Is this some kind of new age Yiddish? It's pronounced CHAATCH-KEYS, I don't know the spelling of the transliteration, but no way is it spelled or pronounced the way you've got it. Been watching too many 'Joey Bishop' reruns up there in the Provinces?

Subject: Joey! From: Jim To: OTS Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 19:29:57 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: chitchkas What the hell, Jim? Is this some kind of new age Yiddish? It's pronounced CHAATCH-KEYS, I don't know the spelling of the transliteration, but no way is it spelled or pronounced the way you've got it. Been watching too many 'Joey Bishop' reruns up there in the Provinces? --- LOL!

Subject: Cult Genitalia From: Crazy Prem's Discount Daze To: Jim Date Posted: Wed, Mar 13, 2002 at 23:09:47 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: X-Rated Visions Liquidation We must crrraaaazzzyy. We're overstocked folks. Come on down to Crazy Prem's Deep Discount Daze and buy our X-rated premie genitalia paraphernalia. Either way, you're f**ked! EIYDHIWFU vibrators, Swan motif pocket pussies, Teach Me Devotion rubbers, Rock Me Maharaji whips and Roll Me Tonite handcuffs, Monica Blow-Up Party Dolls - all priced to BLOW YER WAD! Don't Delay . . . Don't Doubt . . . In God We Trust - All Others Pay With Their Lives

Subject: Back to the Future;) From: Catweasel To: Joe Date Posted: Wed, Mar 13, 2002 at 03:31:07 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You seem to think things will stay the same no matter what.I'll be kind and give you a clue. Digital Vs Analogue. 33.3 Modems Vs Broadband. Print Vs Download. Vcr v/s....? Tell me Joe do you still wind up your gramaphone? Do you have a pay phone in the hallway? And is it a hassle having to hand crank your Baby Austin 7 so you can head off to the Drugstore to buy your Soda Pop? I dont know whether you are deliberately putting a negative spin on this or whether you live in some Philidelphia project type time warp. Think of what the possibilities are.............it will be easier to understand change that way...

Subject: Cult Cult Cult. From: AJW To: Catweasel Date Posted: Wed, Mar 13, 2002 at 15:58:52 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hey Cat, You're in a cult. And you think you're following the living Perfect Master. Sorry pal. It's a cult. Cult. Cult Cult. Anth the Living Perfect Plaster.

Subject: You are so funny From: Joe To: Catweasel Date Posted: Wed, Mar 13, 2002 at 11:25:07 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You seem to think things will stay the same no matter what. Where did you get that idea? In fact, I expect things to continue to change, as the cult falls apart even further. I expect more people to leave, even from that group of die-hard, 'Maharaji is God,' graying, balding, hippies who are Maharaji's (dwindling) core group. If you are referring to yet another promised technological gimmick that is finally going to bail Maharaji out of his dead-end 'mission' and FINALLY make some propagation happen, then you are more deluded than I thought, and really living in the past. How many times have we heard that?

Subject: ***WE WANT THE HEADS!! GIVE US THE HEADS!!*** From: Jim To: Catweasel Date Posted: Wed, Mar 13, 2002 at 11:18:13 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Aw come on, Cat, where are the heads? You're so funny when you use those! Ho ho ho, I can't help laughing just thinking about them. Coem on, Cat, give us the heads!! Oh yeah, and talk about 'spin' too, will you? I gotta tell you, it's so damn funny when you do that -- use the spinnign heads and talk about how we're all spinning the truth. Ho ho ho!! Cat can do heads, everyone! Spinning ones!

Subject: I'd prefer if you gave me Heads(NT) From: Catweasel:p To: Jim Date Posted: Wed, Mar 13, 2002 at 13:40:48 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Or would you prefer tails?())

Subject: I've been there and come back From: Sir Dave :p To: Catweasel Date Posted: Wed, Mar 13, 2002 at 07:04:35 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Blah blah blah blah blah blah. Actually, that was one of your better posts but your talents are wasted on the perfect hamster, Mr Cat. Also, you give zero details about what you're talking about - just vague generalities. Something to come, something modern and technological to happen. ''Time is coming soon when the world is going to see a great, strange thing happening. Many far out things happening...'' We've heard it all before.

Subject: Yes I know ,but we want you to do it again! From: Catweasel|D To: Sir Dave :p Date Posted: Wed, Mar 13, 2002 at 07:53:29 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dave I'm not being mysterious.Visions structure has outlived it's usefuness.There are better ways to do things. It's not for me to make grand announcements as to the direction he may choose.But being reasonably savvy with regard to the direction multi-media is taking ,I'm suggeting that you give consideration to the possibility that there are more effective means of disseminating information than the use of VCR and print.I suppose we will all have to wait and see. PS.Do you personally have to light all those Gas lamps in your home EVERY night Dave? PS Flagship Uberalles at Cheltenham tomorrow.McCoys out of sorts...

Subject: Re: Broadband From: JHB To: Catweasel Date Posted: Wed, Mar 13, 2002 at 04:06:09 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Cat, The vast majority of the population of this planet do not have broadband. Are they now excluded from learning about Maharaji and Knowledge? I think the explanation that the cult is shrinking fits the facts better. John.

Subject: talk about THICK From: Peter Moles To: JHB Date Posted: Wed, Mar 13, 2002 at 21:37:32 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'The vast majority of the population of this planet do not have broadband. Are they now excluded from learning about Maharaji and Knowledge?' What a complete joke! let's put this in perspectice and change the words a bit. The time - early 1920's. You John, talking to a person excited about the new technology of the time. 'The vast majority of the population of this country do not have horseless carriages. Are they now excluded from travelling about the country and getting to town?' See how utterly ridiculous you sound? All Mr weasel is talking about is the next step in communications technology. You already know that mr rawat has always been at the very vanguard of such things and will be the first to use any sophisticated advance in global communications. Sometimes I understand why Knowledge passed you by. Knowledge is not for the very thick. The Manager of U2 was talking to some of us the other day and explaing how outraged he was at Bono's onstage antics at Live Aid wembly Stadium performance. Bono jumped down into the crowd and mingled etc, making the 'show' less interesting for those present. Then he (manager) realised ...'Ah, but it suddenly dwned on me that our REAL audience wasn't at the stadium at all, it was at the receiving end of the world's biggest satellite linkup on hundreds of millions of TV sets all over the globe.' The global 'audience' John is what it's all about. Just because you are in the stadium now, still stuck there in the mud complaining about the dwindling crowd, please don't fool yourself into thinking that the electronic audience is not only 'there' but also thoroughly enjoying what they are seeing.

Subject: THICK is not an apt description From: cq To: Peter Moles Date Posted: Fri, Mar 15, 2002 at 14:25:32 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'Thick' is not an apt description of JHB, Mr 'Moles'. If you had had the privelege of communicating with him, you would know that John has more intelligence, empathy, and sheer common decency (not to mention politeness) than any other ex-premie OR premie I have ever had the good fortune to meet. If this 'global audience' is so important, could you please explain why Visions International is no longer offering the Maha's videos for sale? (presumably, across the globe, more people have access to video than broadcast satellite?) as you will realise when you see that the primary site for distribution

Subject: Re: THICK is not an apt description From: Catweasel To: cq Date Posted: Fri, Mar 15, 2002 at 15:29:21 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: VCR is an outmoded technology.However in many places these (Vids) are still available. All depends on where you live and the scale of Technological evolution prevailing as to what format you receive. Decentralisation is an interesting word.It's cheaper to do things locally .Duplication methodology is a choice question.

Subject: VCR is outmoded is it? From: cq To: Catweasel Date Posted: Sat, Mar 16, 2002 at 12:27:39 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Ah, so THAT's why Visions International appears to have stopped trading. I guess your guru's message is only for people who can afford to receive satellite broadcasts then? Sure, he's making 'K' available to the masses. The masses who can afford it, that is.

Subject: Indeed - talk about THICK From: JHB To: Peter Moles Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 03:44:21 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: What Maharaji appears to be doing is removing the use of the old technology before the new technology is available even to a significant minority. Using your analogy, that's like a few people in the town getting the new horseless carriages, and then telling everyone that horses are no longer allowed in town. How to people who cannot afford satellite or internet watch Maharaji in future? Or even read about him as there are no printed materials available now? As I said, Knowledge is no longer for the poor. At least not outside India. John.

Subject: Re: Indeed - the Sky is Falling From: The Management To: JHB Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 04:45:40 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Oh I see,there are no computers in India.Fuck mee some-one better tell Microsoft and IBM to hold those contracts!!And no-one,anywhere has a decent printer.Oh my God we should have thought about that! ____________________________________________________ | \oO()):p+) ______________________________________________|_____/

Subject: But Maharaji isn't using the Internet! From: JHB To: The Management Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 06:49:01 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: As things stood, Maharaji's message was communicated using videos and some printed materials. Then satellite broadcasts started, but global penetration is still not high, and even in the US is only once a week. Now you guys are talking broadband like Maharaji is already using it. He is not! But he's already scrapped the videos and printed materials. Sorry guys, I know you trust your master, but in terms of propagation, this ain't making any sense. John.

Subject: No! Your kidding! From: Catweasel To: JHB Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 07:50:25 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Well good John,I'll just give him a call and let him know.It's terrific that you are so in the know and super well informed. Geez it helps poor dumb schmucks like us to have some-one around who at least knows what's going on. Hey but wouldn't it just be an absolute cracker if your mail was wrong.Why I think might just wet my panties!

Subject: Maybe I am wrong, Cat, but.. From: JHB To: Catweasel Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 07:59:49 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Show me one example of Maharaji using the internet to spread knowledge? His new site is a joke, and most people wouldn't get past the awful loading period. Elan Vital and Visions sites now say absolutely nothing about Maharaji or Knowledge, so tell me Cat, what am I missing? John.

Subject: Re: Maybe you just haven't thought it through? From: Catweasel To: JHB Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 08:50:12 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Did it cross your mind that the new site may just be a 'sitter' , a forerunner of things to come?I keep telling you John ,you have to start thinking.

Subject: Dumb Cat! From: Lifes Great To: Catweasel Date Posted: Fri, Mar 15, 2002 at 09:14:16 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dumb Cat Anti-Marking Spray Dumb Cat works by eliminating the pheromone scent, not just urine odor from carpets and flooring. Cats and kittens return to the litter box and end scent confusion. Upon contact, instantly, all remains of cat spray and marking scent are removed with no harm to surfaces. Helps stop cats from urinating outside the litter box and spraying walls etc. Works even after using popular enzyme stain and odor products. Contains deterrent. Non-Toxic & Bio-Degradable 16 oz Squirt Bottle 32 oz Spray Bottle Lifes Great www.lifesgreat.com

Subject: Re: Indeed - the Sky is Falling From: Peter Moles To: The Management Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 06:29:30 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: And for pity's sake don't tell them that within 5 years, lightning fast broadband signal will be FREELY available to anyone with a TV or computer. Or that 2/3d's of the world's population will be online (if they wish). Do people here think Knowledge is something physical that you get, shove in your pocket and walk away saying 'thanks man' ? There's no hope fopr some.

Subject: Re: Roger Waters-Radio Waves... From: Catweasel:p To: Peter Moles Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 07:56:49 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: No ,they really think they have the whole box and dice sussed.Isn't it marvellous? I love being around clairvoyants!And the understanding of the direction Communication technology is taking.My God ,it's staggering and I feel priveliged to be close to these giants of the new era.... Err.... John,would you pass me that crystal set please,I'd like to listen to Blue Hills....

Subject: And another thing to think about From: JHB To: Catweasel:p Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 08:05:16 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: A lot of poorer countries get hand me down computers cheap or free as richer countries upgrade. Now, until a couple of years ago, I had a 486/66 with a 19200 connection. I could get EPO fine, but Maharaji's, EV's, and ELK's sites took an age to load. EPO is still committed to being available to anyone with an internet connection. None of the pro-Maharaji sites are. Who's getting their message through? John.

Subject: Re: And another thing ,it's early days.. From: Catweasel To: JHB Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 08:54:04 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Gee ,you'll have to wait and see.But I warrant you that you will be quite pleased and all your wishes will come true.Just stop kidding yourself.You are simply making statements to fit what you want,not what is happening.

Subject: Jam Tomorrow! From: JHB To: Catweasel Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 09:24:20 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Cat, Why bother putting up a site like maharaji.net just as a 'sitter'? Why not leave the old one, which at least said something, until the real new site is ready? You talk as though you are party to the planning or at least you've been told what's going to be, but my guess is that you're pissing in the wind, and find Maharaji's internet strategy as mysterious as the rest of us. Anyway, until tomorrow comes, this argument is futile, except at least you've admitted that Maharaji's current site is useless for propagation. John.

Subject: Topped with lashings of cream! From: Catweasel To: JHB Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 15:38:01 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Functionality boy ! I say functionality boy!. I dont piss in the wind .You end up with wet trousers like some Latvian peasant... No ,I dont see a mystery because I'm not imagining a conspiracy.

Subject: I shovel horseshit... From: JHB To: Catweasel Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 17:26:23 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ... so wet trousers don't bother me, except I know which way the wind is blowing. I'm not seeing any mystery, and I'm not imagining a conspiracy. I'm witnessing an incompetency. But all you see is perfection don't you? Even when it's not there. John.

Subject: You shovel horseshit...daily onto these forum;)s From: Catweasel To: JHB Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 19:42:36 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: that's a fine admission John.I agree with you on incompetence.You cant expectanymoe of yourself though ,not being in full command of the facts.... 'I shovel horseshit' |D Yeah,we know John...

Subject: Horseshit v. Cat's Piss From: JHB To: Catweasel Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 19:48:02 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Horseshit helps the flowers grow, Cat's piss kills just about everything in the garden. Bye for now. John.

Subject: Re: Horseshit v. Cat's Piss From: To JHB To: JHB Date Posted: Fri, Mar 15, 2002 at 11:33:04 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Horseshit and cowshit make everything grow! Mix in a bunch of compost (made of horseshit/cowshit, soil and rotting vegetables and fruit) a garden will flourish. You know that, I am sure. Did you know that if you look at cats in the eyes they don't like it? If you look at them and then close your eyes, a cat will slowly go to sleep. It works. It's true. It lulls them to sleep!

Subject: If you're right...... From: PatD To: Peter Moles Date Posted: Wed, Mar 13, 2002 at 22:21:35 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: .....& Rawat wants to rule the world through the cathode ray tube,then he truly suffers from megalomania. I wouldn't like to speculate on what you suffer from. It's people like you who turn people like me into.......I won't say it. Just don't come through my door without knocking.

Subject: If I'm right? No I couldn't be surely? From: Peter Moles To: PatD Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 01:23:29 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Are you the geezer who posted this on LG? '....& abnasi yourself up your own Yug Yug. 1st&last time I'll ever post here. (what a relief) Joop Joop, Roop Roop, Parp Parp.' OK, a real intellectual. Hey pal, I don't think you and I are going to have a deep and meaningful relationship any time soon, if you know what I mean. And seeing we're getting personal ...People like you make me wonder what the hell I'm doing still living in England. If it wasn't for the new crocii and daffodils now brightening the garden, I'd off to Spain pronto.

Subject: It's crocuses not crocii ,gobshite [nt] From: PatD To: Peter Moles Date Posted: Fri, Mar 15, 2002 at 17:43:38 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: My sense of humour(sob) From: PatD To: Peter Moles Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 10:01:28 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ...obviously isn't to your taste,although given the context I thought it was pretty funny....that's because I'm one of those saddos who laughs at their own jokes. I don't like people who defend Rawat when they have access to the information(as you do)which makes such a defence an insult to the intelligence. I particularly don't like your triumphalist tone & your gleeful expectation that your master can continue to perpetuate his disgraceful con game in perpetuity. Glad to have rattled your cage.

Subject: humour? well may you sob From: Peter Moles To: PatD Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 21:33:04 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yes, it's apparent that your intelligence has indeed been insulted - to the point that it has scurried off into a very dark corner clear out of reach of your ever failing eyesight. I apologise for the nausea my 'triumphalist tone' brings to your sensitive and precarious state of well being. Might I suggest you try concentrating on things you do like?

Subject: Re: Broadband From: Jethro To: JHB Date Posted: Wed, Mar 13, 2002 at 05:43:48 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Broadband???? The people his presecessor(supposedly) want to reach, amongst others, don't even have a tv. Ceratinly this 'Knowledge' was once meant for everyone, rich, poor, crippled, athiest, religious..etc..etc... It certainly was presented as something a noble spirit would would go for. And cerainly many people believed in Maharaji(ie the person catweasel-types revere and would probably do anything for). Hower John, don't assume that everyone came to maharaji for the same reasons. It's just that the majority did and have left. The premie thing of 'do as maharaji says, not as he does' doesn't seem to work anymore. Without even discussing about any possible philosophy m may spout, most people won't tolerate a paedophile-protector narcissist or a hit and run driver and an obvious revisionist and liar(as is adequately documented). A few years ago, I had the cheek to ask a premie for the money she owed me. She really went wild at me saying that I had lent it to her at a time when people...eeer I mean premies, didn't pay each other back and that even if she had £1000000 she wouldn't repay me(Oh btw she owed me about £500). She also went bananas at me when I told her about Jagdeo insinuating that I was not allowed to criticise m at all. The catweasels of this world are like prempal and love it. It is a deceivingly smug vibe to have no values. cheers for now Jethro The truth is that catweasels master, Maharaji only makes himself available to the rich .

Subject: Re: Broadband From: Catweasel To: Jethro Date Posted: Wed, Mar 13, 2002 at 06:20:30 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You totally ignore my point.I have learned to expect that and to have you add a little spin just to make it twirl()) You need to consider that what will change is the basis of all production efforts. In utilising all technical options the message becomes available to the broadest cross section of people. I find you gentlemen persistently literal to the extreme. Suffice to say if you dream it's all disappearing you will be in for a major shock. Why dont you just fess up and admit you actually dont have a clue what's happening.

Subject: Hey, that's it! Cat did a spinning head joke! From: Jim To: Catweasel Date Posted: Wed, Mar 13, 2002 at 11:21:02 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: THANK YOU! Thank you for that, Cat. But, that was only one head, man, what's going on? We want the HEADS, Cat. Lots of them. Come on, show us how clever you are -- again. It was a good joke two months ago. It was a good joke last week. Don't give up on it, Cat. Give us the heads!!!

Subject: LOL From: Livia To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 03:42:15 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: LOL nt

Subject: LOL [nt] From: Livia To: Livia Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 03:45:03 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: Broadband From: Jethro To: Catweasel Date Posted: Wed, Mar 13, 2002 at 06:35:38 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Here is your master's belief basis. The 'Magnus' written by his master. Opening words 'Just as a Grand Vizier pays complete attention to the wishes of his King, so a true disciple is focused completely on the wishes of his Guru Maharaj Ji. Kabir says, such a disciple’s glance never leaves his Guru for a moment, he always concentrates on Him.' Maharajis indoctrination www.ex-premie.org/papers/hyp.htm

Subject: Be: Broad minded From: Catweasel-) To: Jethro Date Posted: Wed, Mar 13, 2002 at 08:11:46 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ahhh but I have my own living guide.And in that I am very content. Jethro ,I've been to India more times than you have had hot breakfasts. It has it's culture and its legend. Might I suggest a movie for you to watch? 'Mississippi Masala' .East meets West in a most unconvetional manner with no punches pulled. Great scene at the Indian wedding when the father of the bride gets the guests to sing Arti.Very clearly. I have been in many places where Arti has been sung and a lot of the traditional songs that I often have heard at Indian programmes are also sung by Hindi's everywhere in India. But so what? In the West Maharaji had some hot Rock and Roll early on with me mates Ross , Lindsay, Geoff and Joe. I liked it.The Indians? I doubt it. Little cultural interludes.But K is where it's all at.Simple.K is the point of the excercise.........

Subject: Hot rock & roll, purlease From: hamzen To: Catweasel-) Date Posted: Wed, Mar 13, 2002 at 18:03:10 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Premie music was always unbelievably anti-septic, I'll excuse some early Apostles and a couple of tracks by Blue Aquarius, Foxfire comes to mind, but hot, jesus cat, c'mon! And don't fgorget that hot new ambient stuff coming out of rawats cheapo studio, how he does stuff that original and awe inspiring on such cheapo equipment is beyond me.

Subject: Simple minded From: Tonette To: Catweasel-) Date Posted: Wed, Mar 13, 2002 at 08:46:16 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Cat have your ever thought about what practicing K has done to your brain? The simple K has evolved you into a simple minded person. Not very deep, not able to answer a question directly and with information. And definately, and this is the saddest part, locked in your own world with your Master and those who are like thinking. But I guess you're happy and that is all that matters. You think M and K are just dandy and great. Okay, can no longer put two and two together. It takes all sorts of people to spin this Earth. Why exactly do you post here? Tonette

Subject: Be: Simple From: Catweasel:o To: Tonette Date Posted: Wed, Mar 13, 2002 at 09:13:42 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Here is something for you to ponder Tonette.I realise that you have achieved superior intelligence and represent the cream of the master race but basically you sell me short. My brain still functions fine thank you.I commonly have to draft 100 to 200 page accurate documents.Because I am but a feeble minded brain addled K addicted lowlife fool ,then I must fail at this task with monotonous regularity.Strange thing is they keep asking me to do harder and harder projects.Maybe I'm like that John Travolta character in the movie where he achieves super IQ only to be diagnosed with an inoperable tumor.And to think that darn K caused it all! Damn!

Subject: Why can't you learn from experience From: Jethro To: Catweasel:o Date Posted: Wed, Mar 13, 2002 at 09:28:25 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: and stop pissing in the wind.

Subject: that's not what 'knowledge' is all about From: cq To: Jethro Date Posted: Fri, Mar 15, 2002 at 15:01:46 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'knowledge' (a misnomer if ever there was one) imparts on the subject a blithe pseudo-imperviousness to the realities of the world they inhabit. The indoctrinated one soon learns how to interpret almost every occurence of their daily live as being evidence for their special relationship to the object of their imagined devotion. 'Imagined' devotion did I say? For sure, the devotion is as much a consequence of imagination as any dream you, I, or they, have ever had. For imagination to be truly useful, it needs the ability to see life from the other side of the coin, at least occasionally. Unfortunately this appears to be an ability the likes of Catweasle and his/her ilk have yet to master. The Maha might have broadband, but he'd be better off having broad appeal. Percentage of those who have taken 'k' and left, compared to those who have stuck with the Goo? Hmmmmm, at a guess - 99 to 1?

Subject: Re: Broadband From: Catweasel To: JHB Date Posted: Wed, Mar 13, 2002 at 04:53:30 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: John I didn't say what was happening.I gave Joe some things to think about.Here's one for you.Try and give things a little mor consideration before speaking?

Subject: What are you talking about? From: JHB To: Catweasel Date Posted: Wed, Mar 13, 2002 at 08:07:33 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Cat, Well why didn't you say what was happening? Why don't you ever come out and say what you are thinking? Why do you always hint at stuff? Why don't you know how to communicate? John

Subject: What are you in need of John? From: Catweasel:p To: JHB Date Posted: Wed, Mar 13, 2002 at 08:15:02 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yes I do John.But you'll just have to be a good reverse Devotee and wait like the rest of us.OK?()) Now learn to be patient John....

Subject: Re: What are you in need of John? From: test To: Catweasel:p Date Posted: Wed, Mar 13, 2002 at 23:08:38 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Hey, everyone, he did it again!! From: Jim To: Catweasel:p Date Posted: Wed, Mar 13, 2002 at 11:24:30 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Another one, huh Cat? That was, like, REALLY FUNNY! But I wish you just did it all the time, instead of only sometimes. I'm telling you, Cat, it's probably the funniest thing I've ever seen. Give us those spinning heads, Cat, because it says sooooo much, everytime you do. You bet!

Subject: And it looks SOOOO tacky From: gerry To: Joe Date Posted: Tues, Mar 12, 2002 at 22:35:54 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Gawd offal looking website. It's down to broadcasts schedules and contribution hustling, huh? He's gonna cut his losses and ride off into the sunset with his remaining ragged band of masochists, I'll betcha.

Subject: These might make you laugh From: Joe To: All Date Posted: Tues, Mar 12, 2002 at 19:35:32 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: If any of you are having a bad day, or even if you are not, take a look at these, courtesy of my partner Kevin. Good Laugh Pictures www.danjacoby.com/SillyPix/

Subject: THANKS Joe! [nt] From: Francesca :~) To: Joe Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 12:30:39 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Thanks Joe/Kevin i needed that (nt) From: Bai Ji To: Joe Date Posted: Wed, Mar 13, 2002 at 01:50:34 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: hits a day From: Livia To: All Date Posted: Tues, Mar 12, 2002 at 15:23:25 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Gerry, if it's you that knows these things - do you know how many hits a day this forum is getting? I remember seeing the numbers mentioned off and on a few weeks back but not lately. Do you or does anyone know the figures, out of interest? Love, Livia

Subject: Millions served From: gerry To: Livia Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 11:36:26 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Livia, Since August 2001 when this current incarnation of the forum began we've had 1,456,624 'page views'

Subject: Re: Millions served From: JHB To: gerry Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 14:26:52 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: That translates at about 7,000 page views a day. The EPO sites get about 2,000 pages view per day. John the statto.

Subject: Can someone e-mail Cynthia? From: Vicki To: All Date Posted: Tues, Mar 12, 2002 at 12:56:07 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: And ask her if her sodium levels have ever been checked, as well as finding out if she's on any antibiotics? It seems the antibiotic being given to my mother makes her "split" into a seperate entity, and be "talked" to by other persons inside her head. This is a new antibiotic given not for infection but to regulate a low sodium level. If it had not been for Cynthia, I would not have even begun to comprehend what is happening. Needless to say, we're questioning the validity of the antibiotic. She also "sees" a little girl, as well as, a male therapist and thinks her sister's name is Barbara. This all started with multiple new medications. Thought it might be worth passing on to Cynthia. Drug allergy reactions are terribly overlooked and very few doctors understand them or acknowledge them.

Subject: I just did From: Moley To: Vicki Date Posted: Wed, Mar 13, 2002 at 07:03:27 (EST) Email Address: moley@redcrow.demon.co.uk Message: I emailed Cynthia your post. xxx

Subject: Forum Admin -- a request From: Jim To: All Date Posted: Tues, Mar 12, 2002 at 12:20:45 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Do you think it'd be possible to change the links so that when you advertise that there are some new 'Lives', 'Days', 'Wit and Wisom' or 'Expressions' entries the reader could go directly there instead of having to click the month as well in between? Thanks :)

Subject: NO! From: gerry To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 20:44:45 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: what was the question again?

Subject: FORMER GURU ON A DIFFERENT MISSION From: Opie To: All Date Posted: Tues, Mar 12, 2002 at 07:05:09 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: This article is now 4 years old but, stangely, still has a present day resonance. I wonder what prompted Rebecca Jones to write this all up? Anyone? FORMER GURU ON A DIFFERENT MISSION Rebecca Jones Rocky Mountain News Staff Writer 823 words 30 January 1998 Rocky Mountain News FINAL 2D English Copyright (c) 1998 Bell & Howell Information and Learning Company. All rights reserved. Whatever happened to Guru Maharaj-Ji, the 12-year-old 'perfect master' whose followers made Denver their headquarters? He once rented most of the Kittridge Building downtown, and one of his followers around Denver was Chicago 7 defendant Rennie Davis. They started the Rainbow Grocery on Colfax. He was supposedly descended from a long line of gurus in India. - Ely, Denver Things haven't gone so well for the guru in the last 20 years, though success is relative. He didn't bring the world peace, as he promised, but at last report he was living in a Malibu mansion valued at $15 million, with other homes in England, New Delhi, Rome, Madrid and who knows where else; driving his choice of a Rolls-Royce, a Maserati, a Ferrari or a garageful of other expensive cars; jetting around the planet on a $25 million Lear jet; or sailing on his $3 million yacht. The number of his followers has shrunk dramatically from the early '70s, when he established the national headquarters of his Divine Light Mission in Denver. Back then, he claimed to have 6 million devotees. Things started to sour on the guru in 1974 when, at age 16, he married Marolyn Johnson, a flight attendant twice his age. His mother didn't like her, and she set about trying to get her oldest son, Bal Bhagwan Ji, named head of the DLM in India. A nasty battle ensued, and by the time things got all sorted out in the mid-'80s, not much was left of the organization. All the ashrams (communes for his followers) were closed, and the name of the organization was changed to Elan Vital in the United States and England. Nowadays, former cult members estimate Maharaji (he's dropped the Guru from his name and simplified the spelling) has 100,000 to 200,000 followers, mostly in India and Nepal. He's said to encourage his followers to offer him donations - which they dutifully do - so he and his 'nonprofit' Elan Vital avoid taxes. The former guru is closing in on the big 4-0 this year but shows no signs of slowing down. Various reports have him attending upwards of a hundred lectures and conferences a year, mostly in India and Nepal. He and his wife have at least three kids, one of whom is an Elan Vital exec. For an extensive backgrounder on the guru, his successes and his foibles, check out the Web site http: / / www.ex-premie.org/ .

Subject: And another one .. From: Op To: Opie Date Posted: Tues, Mar 12, 2002 at 07:40:19 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Here's another one. Wonder if Sarah Marriott is a pwk pretending to be a journalist or maybe a journalist pretending to be a pwk? Either way the article sure puts a positive spin on things. Just loved these lines: Maharaji, who resembles Buddha, except for his business suit and One five-year-old son of a premie asked a nun to explain why she followed a dead master (Jesus), when she could follow a living master, Maharaji. Note to EV Monitors: Maybe you should tell the Irish pwks that Maharaji is no longer the Lord of the Universe, just an aspiring meditation teacher! OP :) Let's get blissed. 773 words 30 January 1999 Irish Times 82 English (c) 1999 Since introducing his spiritual techniques to the West, Indian-born guru `Maharaji' has found tens of thousands of willing followers, many of them in Ireland, who will go to some lengths to achieve `Knowledge'. Sarah Marriott reports `Maharaji has totally changed my life,' says Sylvia. 'There isn't a word good enough to describe the way I feel. I feel blissed.' Sylvia, (23) a Dublin sales assistant, has joined the growing band of Irish people following the small plump Indian, known as Maharaji (pronounced Ma-rah-ji), who teaches meditation techniques called 'Knowledge', and has been variously described as a motivational teacher, 'a Master, like Christ' and a cult leader. 'I heard about Maharaji from my brother who got Knowledge when he was 21, about 20 years ago,' says Sylvia. 'I just grew up with it. Ten years ago, my mother got Knowledge and then I did, three years ago.' Every month, in 23 towns around Ireland, from Macroom to Omagh, hundreds of people of all ages and backgrounds turn up to over 70 'events' - meetings where 'premies', (followers of Maharaji) and 'aspirants' (those who would like to receive the 'gift' he offers) watch videos of his lectures. Compared with many other 'gurus' who came to the West in the early 1970s, Maharaji's staying power is impressive and his popularity is growing - particularly in Africa, apparently. In the past 10 years, according to publicity material, more than 79,000 people have received 'Knowledge', and a recent global satellite link-up of Maharaji speaking attracted adoring audiences of more than 86,000 in 173 locations in 50 countries. In Dublin, around 300 people braved winter weather and paid #15 to experience the short talk in Trinity College. Maharaji, who resembles Buddha, except for his business suit, is now attracting a second generation of Irish followers. Teenage children of couples who got Knowledge more than 20 years ago, are now attending video events. 'I never pushed my children,' says one premie. 'One of my sons goes because he enjoys it.' One five-year-old son of a premie asked a nun to explain why she followed a dead master (Jesus), when she could follow a living master, Maharaji. So what is this 'gift' called Knowledge offered by Maharaji? It's hard to say - because his followers vow never to reveal the techniques. 'It's very simple,' says philosophy student, Finn McClean (22) from Holywood, Co Down who learnt the techniques 18 months ago, after spending two years attending events. 'It's not a complicated system or a philosophy. It's just four techniques - which have helped me. The hour that I practise every day quiets the mind,' he explains. Aspirants are required to attend video events once a week for five months before they can ask to receive the 'gift', and then instructors decide if the seeker is ready. No payment is required, although there is always a donation box at events. Detractors believe his luxury lifestyle (Californian mansion, private plane etc) is supported by 'contributions' from his followers. Supporters, however, claim he has private business interests which are part of his 'private persona' and therefore none of their concern. What is certain, though, is that some premies devote their lives and savings to travelling to see their guru. Last year, Robert (not his real name), who has been a follower since 1972, heard Maharaji speak five times - in Miami, Brighton, London (at Wembley Stadium), Delhi (with 70,000 other premies) and Nepal. The Maharaji was born Prem Pal Rawat in India in 1957. He was seven years old when his dying father named him as his successor, the next Guru Maharaji. At 14, encouraged by Westerners on the hippie trail, he came to the West to spread his message. In the cause of globalisation, all Indian traditions have disappeared, as Maharaji attempts to reach as many people as possible - from Ghana to Peru. Everything comes from the man himself, who teaches the techniques to mass audiences. In his mission, Maharaji is supported by Elan Vital, an international organisation which arranges video events. In Ireland, Elan Vital (registered as an educational trust and run on a non-profit basis) relies on word-of-mouth. 'We do not advertise or proselytise,' says voluntary press officer Declan Dunne, who is wary of media attention and stresses Maharaji is not a cult leader. 'You come when you want. And go when you want. You're always welcome. It's important people should approach it with discrimination. There are a lot of weird things out there.' For information on video events, tel (01) 857 0301.

Subject: been a long time From: 210 To: All Date Posted: Mon, Mar 11, 2002 at 21:08:33 (EST) Email Address: yeah_right_210@yahoo.com Message: Hello, Friends. It's been ages since I was able to get here. Things have been so very rocky and fragile that I haven't gotten on the computer at all. Finally, I felt I had to check in. As I said, it's been rocky. Two months ago, my partner was in such a state, distant, cold and angry, about my feelings toward rawat, I very nearly left because I couldn't take any more of it. It's better now, but still, as I said, fragile. Nice job, Rawat Asshole Ji. Cripple my beloved and destroy our relationship. I have a question, which may have been discussed or answered while I was not here. the broadcasts are down to once a week now, thankfully! Has anybody heard a reason for this? I'm curious as to why. Thank you all. Even though I am rarely able to read here, I am grateful that this place exists.

Subject: Hello From: Loaf To: 210 Date Posted: Tues, Mar 12, 2002 at 02:05:45 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Sorry to hear about your troubles. As to the REAL reason why broadcasts are down (and they are of old events anyway).. I think that Rawat is probably pissed off about money.. and engaging in a combined sulk and emotional blackmail. After all, do the Premies really DESERVE more events ?

Subject: New White Pages Entries & A Journey From: JHB To: All Date Posted: Mon, Mar 11, 2002 at 15:02:07 (EST) Email Address: epowebmaster@yahoo.co.uk Message: Nick Kane and Ronald Harold have submitted their White Pages entries. Ronald didn't say when he became an ex but from our email exchange he is quite definitely an ex. Here is his brief Journey entry which, after much thought, I decided not to add to EPO as it stood, although I cannot fault the sentiment:- FUCK MAHARAJI..........I RECEIVED KNOWLEDGE IN 1980; AFTER REVIEWING THIS WEBSITE, I FEEL MUCH BETTER, BUT FEEL SO VERY BAD FOR ALL THE PEOPLE WHO HAVE SUFFERED AT THE HANDS OF MAHARAJI & CO.......MAMA SAID KNOCK YOU OUT, BITCH..... SOMEONE OUGHT TO KNOCK THAT MOTHERFUCKER SENSELESS........I HOPE HE READS THIS- HE'S A REAL PUNKASS MAHARAJI TAKES ARROGANCE AND MATERIALISM TO ANOTHER LEVEL, EVEN BEYOND THE ENRON BASTARDS- MAHARAJI STOLE PEOPLE'S HEARTS AND MINDS AND SMOKED THEM UP......FUCKING BASTARD......I WONDER IF HE'S CONCERNED ABOUT HIS KARMIC DEBT......I DOUBT IT.....RON

Subject: Re: New White Pages Entries & A Journey From: rocky To: JHB Date Posted: Wed, Mar 13, 2002 at 05:54:35 (EST) Email Address: awarenezz@yahoo.com Message: hi nick, if you happen to read this..would be great if you would contact me at above e-mail address..remember wiesbaden back in 1977 or so, you and minne and me and my x and martin and eva had in mind renting a house in the country to form a premie house..you had rattle- snake sneakers on for gigs with a countryband and turned me on to the outlaws..we shared a motel room together at an orlando festival and minne was breastfeeding ruby and leila at the same time, great pic: holy mother in action..cheers rocky

Subject: Way to go Ron.... From: PatD To: JHB Date Posted: Mon, Mar 11, 2002 at 18:22:10 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ....Soulbrother.

Subject: Tell us how you really feel, Ron From: Richard To: JHB Date Posted: Mon, Mar 11, 2002 at 16:55:13 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Holy smokes! JHB, I think your assesment that Ron is an ex is quite accurate.

Subject: The Ferryman? From: Opie To: All Date Posted: Mon, Mar 11, 2002 at 14:40:57 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Found on EPO Question: What happens to people who don't understand and don't practice ? Maharaji: Kabir says, if you are standing on a boat and taking someone out of the water, if you can take him out of that river, well and good, take him out. If you can't, then give him two pushes more, otherwise he will bring you down with him. If you are standing in the boat and someone is drowning in the water, take him up if you can. If you can't, then give him two pushes more ! --- So I better watch out for the ferryman I guess - I may be pushed, pushed presumably underwater. I am still wondering what the hell Maharaji (or even Kabir) may have meant by this! Perhaps a pwk lurker, or Elan Vital monitor could help me out? Sorry if this quote proves painful for anyone. Opie (The Sayings of Guru Maharaj Ji, Vol. 3 page 62, Published by Divine United Organisation, Shri Sant Yogashram, Hans Marg, Mehrauli, New Delhi-110030) Click here for relevant EPO page. www.ex-premie.org/papers/rottenv.htm

Subject: Don't Pay the Ferryman.. From: Bai Ji To: Opie Date Posted: Tues, Mar 12, 2002 at 18:53:27 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Ha! I read this thread this morning before going to the beach for a swim and on the way back guess what 'Divine Lila' 'Grace' that old Chris de Burgh song came on the radio.... Chorus Don't pay the Ferryman Don't even fix a price Don't pay the Ferryman UNTIL HE GETS YOU TO THE OTHER SIDE! then later on And then the Ferryman said 'There is Trouble ahead' (Same old scare the pants off em stuff) Kali Yuga, Rotting Veges going to hell) So you Must pay me Now (Don't do it) You Must pay me Now (Don't do it) And then a voice came from behind..whatever you do Don't pay the Ferryman Don't even fix a price Don't pay the Ferryman UNTIL HE GETS YOU TO THE OTHER SIDE! Ball's in your Court Kabir/Maharaji/Enron

Subject: Re: The Ferryman? From: PatD To: Opie Date Posted: Mon, Mar 11, 2002 at 18:06:16 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I guess Rawat used that quote to reinforce the never have doubt business. Don't even give the time of day to premies who are spaced out,i.e not 110% on the golden road to his feet. In their minds,too intellectual,in the woodwork & all that. As I was in that category for most of the heavy devotional period,& may even have been present when he said that(he said so much along those lines then it's difficult to remember),I know exactly what he meant. He was saying to ME....get it together or you're fucked bigtime. That of course was too much to take on board,so I knew it applied more to dozens of other people who were even more spaced out than me...& so on down the line I'm sure. Back then of course he had an unlimited supply of eager beavers to cater for his every whim,so I reckon he could afford to lose a few. Interestingly,it's the old spacers who refused to drown who are now the main audience,whereas the guys who made it onto the boat in those days jumped off years ago. As for Kabir;Survival of the Fittest in action for you, 400yrs or whatever before Social Darwinism,Nazi Eugenics,& Special Forces psychological training. What a prophet!

Subject: Heeding the words of the master From: Lesley To: Opie Date Posted: Mon, Mar 11, 2002 at 17:19:24 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: He said that or similar on many occasions, and, imo, it is one of those pieces of advice that intrigue because there is an element of truth in it. Having had a fair bit to do with water safety issues, here in Australia, I know there has been quite a push to make people think about what to do before attempting to save someone who is in difficulties in the water. There were quite substantial statistics of secondary drownings, ie where a person attempting a rescue becomes another victim. Just recently a woman was telling me about a time at the beach when she saw her son getting caught in a rip (a current). Not a strong swimmer, herself, she nonetheless swam with the power of adrenalin, and reached her son. Fortunately a couple of surfboarders saw what was happening and went to the rescue. She got her son up onto a board, and then collapsed and needed rescuing as well. (Ideally she would have alerted other people to what was happening, borrowed a board, sent out a stronger swimmer, etc) Okay, so there's the kernel of truth, it has to do with a real situation, drowning, and has most inappropriately been applied to the subject of saving souls, with an added embellishment of pushing, PUSHING??? I guess, when someone listens to the glad tidings that the Lord has come, and then says, thanks, but no thanks, it is an embarassment to the Lord, so now they are characterised as 'drowning' and impervious to help, so should be shoved away, as far away as possible. Of course, as you sit there trying to make sense of the Master's discourse, you might try seeing it as alluding to a personal level. IE, that if a person is distressed, you can try to cheer them up, but if you find that you are starting to feel distressed too, then push them away. Which, sadly, is the callow attitude many premies have. Witness the shockingly cruel response Cynthia got on Life's Grate to her plain, open, detailed post on her time at Deca.

Subject: Re: Heeding the words of the master From: Livia To: Lesley Date Posted: Tues, Mar 12, 2002 at 07:54:31 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'IE, that if a person is distressed, you can try to cheer them up, but if you find that you are starting to feel distressed too, then push them away. Which, sadly, is the callow attitude many premies have.' That passage reminds me of something that once happened to me at a festival in Rome. I was feeling bad for some reason and bumped into a premie 'friend'. She was 'blissed out' and noticed by the expression on my face that I wasn't. I think I told her I was 'in my head' or some such premie jargon, and she expressed something akin to revulsion. I think her words were 'oh please go away, I really don't want to be brought down by you.' It sounds like a small, trivial instance and it probably was, but it has obviously remained in my memory for some reason. Looking at it now, it's obvious. I remember it so vividly because it epitomised the contradiction inherent in so much of premie behaviour; ie my bliss/feeling of love is of supreme importance - do not disturb it under any circumstances. I came to Knowledge under the impression that love looked outward as well as inward - surely if that premie was feeling genuine love for God she would have had enough left over to have uttered a couple of kind, empathetic words, because really that's all I needed. Now as everything falls into place, it seems as if what she was experiencing was a form of narcissism masquerading as bliss. In other words, she was basking in the feeling that Maharaji loved her, and from where she was no one else mattered at all. Hence the mad rush for seats, trampling everyone in their wake. 'I love Maharaji, Maharaji loves me!' A premie world filled with people lost in their own individual love affair with Maharaji, where any caring for people other than oneself is secondary or worse. Love, Livia who managed to make it out of that dark, gloomy, sad little world.

Subject: Great analysis From: Joe To: Livia Date Posted: Wed, Mar 13, 2002 at 17:31:33 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Now as everything falls into place, it seems as if what she was experiencing was a form of narcissism masquerading as bliss. In other words, she was basking in the feeling that Maharaji loved her, and from where she was no one else mattered at all. Hence the mad rush for seats, trampling everyone in their wake. 'I love Maharaji, Maharaji loves me!' A premie world filled with people lost in their own individual love affair with Maharaji, where any caring for people other than oneself is secondary or worse. Livia, I think you are really on to something here. In one sense the whole premie trip is completely selfish. It's all just focus on your own 'experience' and how to 'get it.' At the same time, it often leads to depression and a truncated life because one is so focused on your own little 'experience bubble' and the fact that you don't have the bliss most of the time. It's a recipe for both narcissism, depression and a kind of frantic need to "get the juice" you think Maharaji might have for you. I think Maharaji is the best example of this, and the premies, especially somebody like Catweasel, appears to emulate him. It's just fine to care nothing of the state of the rest of humanity, about moral issues, because you don't care about Maharaji's either, and he says you don't have to care about your own. And you can treat people like crap, especially those who criticize Maharaji, because it just doesn't matter in the Maharaji world. And the way you described it as a dark and gloomy world was so true for me, at least for the last few years in the cult. 'Dark' describes it very well. It was only after I got out of it that I realized how dark it really was. And even when I was miserable in those years, I would have told you it was beautiful and full of light. I think I was afraid that if I stated the truth, it might become a reality for me, so I tried to keep the facade going until I just couldn't do it anymore. At the time, I left the cult more out of exhaustion and resignation than outright rejection. Of course, after I left, and got my wits about me, it all came more into focus, what really had been happening.

Subject: the dark years From: Livia To: Joe Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 04:23:32 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It was around the time of the 'dinner' in London with Maharaji in 1986 that I began to get a distinctly funny feeling. Maharaji put on a 'dinner' in a posh hotel in London; they probably happened in America too, I don't know. It cost £40 to go, which was quite a lot of money in those days. I felt I just HAD to go - any opportunity to be 'with him' etc etc. Felt a bit funny about the fact that a lot of people just couldn't afford to go, and there weren't enough tickets for everybody, but hey! I managed to get the money together and off I went in a borrowed dress. We all sat at tables, seating was arranged so I ended up having to sit with a table full of people I didn't know, and didn't particularly take to either. After eating a formal meal, Maharaji came on stage for probably about 20 minutes, maybe less? All I can remember is that he told a couple of dirty jokes and then left. And I was left with a distinctly odd feeling, like, what had that been all about? At the time I was working with a particularly good bunch of people, not premies. They really put themselves out for each other and were fun and intelligent. I kept on meditating every day and going to programmes etc, but the premie world began to look a bit shabby to me around then. Something had definitely gone. Even Charanand started to look troubled, as I mentioned in a thread above. What began to look really noticeable to me at around that point was how little the premies seemed to care about anything or anyone outside their little world. The world outside that little world looked brighter, and brighter so that's where I went. Of course the core belief about 'who Maharaji was' remained unshaken - the 10 previous years of intense conditioning had gone too deep. I couldn't remain in that little world, but of course there was no one to talk to about one's feelings. Couldn't talk to non premies because that would be disloyal, couldn't talk to ex-premies - ditto, and couldn't talk to premies because they would think you were manmat!!! What a relief to find EPO and the forum here and to be finally able to express all those unexamined feelings. 1978 - 1982: another weird time. I meditated diligently daily, sometimes for up to two hours, sometimes having quite profound experiences, sometimes not - like most premies I expect. Going to satsang daily, doing service, going to every programme possible. But in my heart of hearts I was in a dark, gloomy place. The experience was just not sustainable in daily life; it just wasn't there. No doubt there will be premies reading this who are thinking: 'She obviously didn't get it, etc etc' but that's just not true! I really loved Maharaji, prayed to him daily, did whatever I could, gave people satsang - he was the meaning of my whole existence. But at that point, without more to my life than satsang, service and meditation, my life was sad, dark and gloomy. In fact, in all honesty I would say that stage began in 1977. The years before that - 72-76 - were wonderful. Any parallels, anyone? With love, Livia

Subject: Re: the dark years From: Jim To: Livia Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 12:23:28 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I just love reading your posts, Livia. All interesting stuff.

Subject: The dinner in 1986 From: JHB To: Livia Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 07:49:41 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yes, the dinner! It was in the London Hilton, Park Lane. I rented a dinner suit from Moss Bros and we were all there pretending to be respectable people instead of the former hippy cult members we were. I remember at one point during the evening a queue developed in front of the head table where people were asking Maharaji to sign their invitations or menus or something. I remember thinking I should join them but I was too scared. A premie opera singer sang, I can't remember his name but he was good, and afterwards, myself, my wife, and a premie couple we knew, tried to have a drink in the penthouse bar. The guy on the door looked at us like we were aliens, and asked if we were from the function on the second floor. We said we were and he told us that the cover charge was nine pounds per person with a tone of voice that said he knew it was too much for us. Ah, strange days! John.

Subject: Re: The dinner in 1986 From: OTS To: JHB Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 12:01:24 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Livia, thanks for sharing your deep feelings about the bad feelings you were having over the years prior to exiting. That gnawing in the pit of one's stomach was real, it turns out. Thanks for the memories, too. I loved that dinner that my wife and I attended. New York's midtown Hilton Hotel was the site of the formal 1986 dinner. Tuxedos for the head table and many of the attendees. A wonderful first class presentation. The desert especially was memorable, including chocolate cups filled with crème swimming in a raspberry sauce. There was a cash bar with New York bartenders. It was lovely. I am just sorry we couldn't afford it more than once in 30 years. Playing dress up was fun. I don't know how the limited number of tickets were allocated. Some got tears instead of tickets, I'm sure. I think it cost $125 a plate, but I'm not sure. Smoked a fatty in the alley just prior to my musical performance.

Subject: Rawat is a prat From: Lesley To: Livia Date Posted: Wed, Mar 13, 2002 at 17:16:51 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'd guess most premies at one time or another have been disturbed to witness the outta control stampedes that sometimes happen when Mr Rawat is out and about, and there is a chance to, um, 'receive darshan'. It's not a pretty sight. I can't imagine it's a pretty sight from his perspective, either. But I reckon he has only himself to blame for that. It's no different to a rock concert, the star gets up on stage and croons away, with everything he's got, 'Love me tonight, I need you so bad', and then has to hire security men to disabuse the bulk of people who are trying to get backstage to comply with the request, apart from whomever he has picked, of course. I doubt if there are many premies who actually like the stampedes, but, if my memory serves me well, we were too busy trying to keep out of them to actually ask ourselves why they happened. Simple human kindness was often a casualty of the fraught situation, and that matters, it matters a lot. Primed as we were with stories of God, stories of Jesus and his disciples, we accepted Mr Rawat's assertion that the bond a premie forms towards him is Divine Love. It is not. It really is not. It is made of the same stuff as the bond you form with any other person. Once I was able to grasp that, I was free from the confusion that premies dwell in, the perennial question a premie deals with, 'Why is it that the 'World of Maharaji' is so harsh?' Not so difficult to understand once you stop thinking you have this special heart place, separate to your 'ordinary emotions', which manufactures 'divine love'. Okay, I believed Mr Porky Pie, fell for his show, hook line and sinker, but now I know, and know for sure, Rawat really is a prat. Love, Lesley

Subject: YAY Leslie! (nt) From: Bai Ji To: Lesley Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 01:07:59 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: The Ferryman? From: Richard To: Opie Date Posted: Mon, Mar 11, 2002 at 17:04:07 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I recall another version of the same message from M was something like 'If you see a drowning person, try to save him (introduce them to M&K) but if they try to pull you down then push them away.' Another way of saying 'It's all about my own experience'. I was thinking recently about how, in my more enchanted days, I would conciously avoid even good friends if I perceived that their energy might bring me down. Nice guy I was.

Subject: charanamrit From: Livia To: All Date Posted: Mon, Mar 11, 2002 at 09:55:34 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Does anybody here remember charanamrit, the drops of water apparently taken from a bowl of water used to wash Maharji's feet? This was then mixed with other water and given out in small containers to be diluted yet again for premies to sip from a spoon after arti. Yikes! The memory just flipped back into my brain yesterday for some reason. A good one to bring up when having a revisionist-type conversation with a premie! Or was the whole thing our idea perhaps? Love, Livia

Subject: Re: charanamrit From: Opie To: Livia Date Posted: Mon, Mar 11, 2002 at 11:06:58 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: No the whole thing was certainly not our idea. Many many times did I sip from that spoon after Arti - fat lot of use it did me! Charanamrit is very much part of Hinduism along with Prashad. All religions have their symbols - no wonder it was dropped by the Cult of Maharajism (well in the West anyhow), seeing that it is not a religion! Dropped with the Saris huh ..... Click on here for general interest of charanamrit. But for you cooks out there hit this and have a nice cool drink after all your strenuous Pujas

Subject: Re: charanamrit From: salam To: Opie Date Posted: Mon, Mar 11, 2002 at 19:46:44 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: fuck the guru, his cult and anything else in between.

Subject: Re: Bog(us) Prashad From: OTS To: Opie Date Posted: Mon, Mar 11, 2002 at 15:32:57 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: One should consider himself lucky to take the Prasada, and there is no restriction of any kind in taking Prasada. Prasada is all purifying. Except for my wife and her first husband's entire Italian families, who all became sick when Prasada from Maharaji's lunch (from some time ago stored in a glass jar) was added to one of the dishes at their wedding. A public health DISASTER. What bliss . . . barking with the seals!!!!!

Subject: And of course there was this young lady From: Jethro To: OTS Date Posted: Tues, Mar 12, 2002 at 04:05:55 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: whi ate some of the arth that rajaji walkes on, and then became very sick. Od course it was m purifyuing her!!!

Subject: and wedding cake .... From: Opie To: Jethro Date Posted: Tues, Mar 12, 2002 at 06:31:49 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I remember being given a piece of the 'Wedding Cake' - gawd did we feel privileged! On reflection I sincerely hope that M did not do what is common in India with respect to Prasad and Guru's and that is, erm, spit on it so that devotees could share the bodily fluids of their idol. Yeeuch! Where is the mouthwash!? :) Op

Subject: was charanamrit from old man rawat's feet [nt] From: but the primo shit To: Livia Date Posted: Mon, Mar 11, 2002 at 10:09:00 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Why I love Cynthia From: gerry To: All Date Posted: Sun, Mar 10, 2002 at 21:55:32 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Not just because she's a survivor and and a true 'great soul' but also because of her wonderful posts like this which appeared sometime ago on Life's Grate Hate Club forum: DECA was Maharaji's major big tricks. The trick was that he wanted an airplane so much that he came up with a scheme to collect a lot of premies, put them in one place, and make the project so secret he was only known as ''The Client.'' That secrecy made everyone there feel very special and privileged. (I was one who inforced that confidentiality rule). The only exception was after hours when no outsiders (real world people) might be there, and then we'd only whisper his name in small circles. When I first got to Miami in May, 1979 I would say that we were no more than 100 at most working in a small warehouse in Hialeah. That's when I knew who everyone was by name. It was a small group of premies doing the initial work: prototypes and mock-ups in the warehouse part, business and financial stuff and whatever else needed to be done at his request, in the tiny office. In May, 1979 Maharaji was at Riegate, the England residence. I was in the office doing secretarial work and it was my job to answer the phones, so I spoke to him on the phone every day, sometimes several times per day. I was taught how to answer the phone. I always said 'Pranam Maharaji,' and he'd tell me who he wanted--usually Guy Rollins or Jim Hession. But you never put the Lord on hold. Never push that hold button--literally! After a few weeks of that premies told me ''You wouldn't believe what your eyes looked like, Cindy.'' (They were glazed over in a cultist trance-state of bliss). I floated everywhere I went. I floated above my exhaustion, too. It's nerve wracking to be around the Living Lord every single day. But I was not an X-rated PAM. I have never considered myself a PAM. Maharaji's big trick to gather as many premies in one place and get free slave labor was successful for him because he made himself present there, giving darshan every single, sometimes several times per day. He received adoration every day. In doing that he held the premies in a total state of obedience, never wanting to leave. Premies at Deca, including me, were in an advanced state of a cultist trance which we called bliss. Once he returned from England he visited that small Hialeah warehouse every day. He was barely off the plane from UK when he came speeding into that garage bay. I'd get an ETA from his personal security, tell the warehouse security guys and they'd wait at the garage door to open it for him to enter in whatever vehicle he happened to be driving that day. There was no electric garage door--they pulled it open with ropes and he sped into that small bay without regard to anyone's safety. No one stood in that garage when they knew he was coming or you'd get hit head-on. I remember one day Jim Hession was standing at the end of the garage at the opening to the warehouse and Maharaji stopped on a dime, very close to Jim. Jim turned red (as he always did) and Maharaji laughed--everyone who was there laughed, too. It was so sick. Shortly after his return Maharaji's big Deca trick became even more grandiose. He gave us satsang in the little warehouse. He told us that we needed to obey him without question and to follow his instructions implicitly because the project was going from working on prototypes to actual work to be done to rebuild that huge old hunk of a B707 that needed much more work than reconfiguring the inside to be an executive, private jet. The project was taking off in a huge way and he wanted it done his way, the correct way. There was a lot of discussion where this expansion would take place, the expense of finding a large workplace. Then the Complex was found and leased, as well as a hangar at the Miami airport. That's when so many more premies were called down to Miami. It was a huge warehouse and within 2 to 3 weeks, one whole side was converted into quite plush offices by the carpenters, painters and rug layers--this for the office workers. On our side, where the design room was, not much needed to be done. There was a suite of offices for M right off of the design room that was also renovated. No one was allowed in there except for M's personal staff, family, the project directors, and me and perhaps one other premie, because I cleaned it up after he left. By then a lot of the secret was out. Community premies may not have known exactly what was going on there, but they certainly knew he was giving daily darshan. They craved to be there. We who were there would look blissfully at each new Deca premie/employee with a knowing bliss in our eyes because we knew that they were in for some heavy darshan experiences. I didn't like all the new premies coming in and getting a piece of my darshan. It was a royal mindf**k, but that's how I felt. Eventually, I lost count of all the people at the Complex and didn't know everyone by name. Although I did know faces. I didn't care though. Even though I was off the phones, the design room is one place he spent a lot of time, up close and personal. I remember that late summer and fall trailer truck loads of goomraji's cars were driven from Malibu to the complex. M literally made the Deca Complex into his playground. One Foundation had a practice studio on the second floor--off limits except to authorized personnel. That rule applied to the garage area where his Maseratis and Mercedes stretch limos, and many other of his cars were. On the office side a large satsang room was built with a semi-circle dais for his chair. That's where he held the instructors' training and meetings. I knew that some premies were splitting up their marriages to come down to the 'Project.' I blissfully floated through that too. Some packed up and brought their entire families down there. I do know there were separations and divorces with children involved. To not accept an invitation to go to Deca was considered ''unsurrendered,'' or ''not devoted enough.'' Pity the premie who was told that! I talk about Deca a lot because I know what it did to so many premies. I feel somewhat but not totally, unresolved about what it did to me, mentally, emotionally, and physically. What I and other Deca premies considered to the highest privilege on earth: to serving the living lord in his presence, turned out to be one of the most damaging events in the cult's history in the west. Jim Jones style of isolation and deprivation. I wonder about the premies I was close to there. I wonder how they are and how their lives turned out. I wonder why they don't talk about their experiences here. Perhaps it's fear, perhaps it's just wanting to forget how awful the conditions were and how stuck we all were in obedience to whom we considered the living lord. It's part of my life I can't take back. I lived in an advanced trance-state. I lost so much of myself slaving for him. And did he ever thank me or anyone else? Absolutely not. I don't think he knows what he did to the premies down there, in isolation, day after day. Maharaj has a lot to learn about gratitude.

Subject: Re: Why I love Cynthia From: bill To: gerry Date Posted: Mon, Mar 11, 2002 at 23:56:09 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I was there with Cynthia from Nov 79. Before that, she was in Hartford Ct and sang in the premie band. She was great. Really. She emerged from horrific child abuse and having a lord of the universe turn out to be fake can only have added a great burden to the abuse issue in her life. The last thing she needed was to be shattered around such a deep level of trust that she was finally able to again give to a father, the divine father of creation. If you needed another rawat related abuse to add to the mix, Scott Ritter, who you may recall during this last year was put in the role of handleing rawats internet strategy, deeply wounded her. Details would anger you. She has a good family and I hope she realizes that only she can get a grip on her fragmenting voices. She will really just have to knuckle down and start sending the voices one by one to permanent rest. Or pull them out only on Sunday. Or evolve them into great funny interesting POSITIVE folks of good cheer who say, OH WELL ! about the past, and forgive everyone who did her wrong and say that she is worthy of love and for her to show herself and others that she can rise above cruelty and shine with goodness, kindness, and love of others. and herself. RISE AND SHINE CYNTHIA !

Subject: Be strong as you are, Cynthia From: Richard To: bill Date Posted: Tues, Mar 12, 2002 at 15:23:29 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I want to add my voice to the back-up singers that are here to accompany you. I admire you, respect you and wish the very best. Love, Richard, Postie, Dickie Pwickie, Brother Hal N. Back and Mahatma Coat

Subject: I admire Cynthia From: Joe To: gerry Date Posted: Mon, Mar 11, 2002 at 12:24:49 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I really do. I really admire the way she tells the truth and gets rightously angry about the injustice and deceit that Maharaji engaged in, and she does it from the standpoint of the effects it had on real people. Her concern isn't so much that Maharaji is a fraudulent spiritual leader, but that he used people to get what he wanted and never gave a crap about them as individuals. I admire her values, and I admire that she explains them with such conviction. So, Cynthia, if you are reading this, I just wanted to say thanks a lot from me, and I hope you are doing okay.

Subject: Yes, a beautiful, loving, unique person From: Tonette To: gerry Date Posted: Mon, Mar 11, 2002 at 10:42:08 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: And that post of Cynthia's on Life's Great got her emotionally slam dunked by the premie web master there. He chose his words carefully and knew how to drive them like stakes into her very being. He used confidential, personal information about Cynthia to try and discredit this most damning post concerning what really happened and what M is really like. She was 'in the loop' to know these truths about Maharaji and is as crediable as Michael Dettmers, Donner, MacGregor and others. Although she does not consider herself a PAM you can better believe she was. I used to have respect for premies. Hell, I remember idolizing them before I got knowledge. I used to idolized initiators, instructors. What great realized souls they were. Oh so dedicated to knowledge and what it stood for. They must be special to be elevated to the level they were. To have every answer to each and every question about what practicing knowledge meant, required and what it was. Who Maharaji was. The Perfect Master because he shows perfection. And the premies who had knowledge so much longer than I had, they must of been so close, so very close to realizing it. What a crock of shit and how embarrassing that I ever thought/believed/experienced that. I have never seen anything quite like it. Practicing knowledge and following Maharaji has turned what would otherwise be loving, sensitive, intelligent and sincere people into narcistic, amoral, unethical and selfish humans. Practicing knowledge imbeds, like a tumor into their brain, the inability to think straight. The only real thing is my master and this knowledge. Family, children, humanity, my self worth is all second fiddle to this ultimate truth. I can understand this veiwpoint. At least I could at one time. However, any premie who posts here and those on LG have surely read EPO as well as other sites. Direct, undoctored testimony as well as a paper trail really should leave no doubt as to the real character and intentions of Maharaji. I must say I have no patience nor regard to those premies who continue to post here under the guise of well, we, on this forum have it all wrong. We're a bunch of lying, hateful people who never really meditated, dedicated or understood Maharaji in the first place. Those individuals are not worthy to be the dung on my shoe and frankly, they deserve everything they reap in their validation of Maharaji. I'm just sorry for the innocent by-standers that they harm. The mothers, fathers, siblings, children, spouses that are caught in this realm of unreality by loving a premie. Those are the real victims. And Cynthia, although I know you are probably not reading this, my hat's off to you. For the love you so freely gave here through your gentle, kind and informative posts. I'm so very disgusted that a post by the likes of some Maharaji premie hurt you. But look at what you are dealing with. He's only holding onto the dregs of what once was. All the talent and good has left his cult. The Master is at the bottom of the barrel. Hasn't he hinted at retiring? There is a reason for that. M is not so stupid to be unable to see that his Elan Vital, his cult is dying. And like Gerry and so many others here, I love you too Tonette

Subject: Honest to a fault - get well, Cynthia [nt] From: PatC To: Tonette Date Posted: Mon, Mar 11, 2002 at 22:55:16 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Cynthia, this is for you. From: Sulla To: PatC Date Posted: Tues, Mar 12, 2002 at 11:35:23 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: My cousin sent this to me and I thought of Cyntia and all of you. Cynthia, as the people here said, you are honest as this Mae, and as sweet as her Ice cream. Thanks again for your posts.Love you. I have a new delightful friend, I am most in awe of her. When we first met I was impressed, By her bizarre behavior. That day I had a date with friends, We met to have some lunch. Mae had come along with them, All in all ... a pleasant bunch. When the menus were presented, We ordered salads, sandwiches, and soups. Except for Mae who circumvent And said, Ice Cream, please: two scoops. I was not sure my ears heard right. And the others were aghast. Along with heated apple pie, Mae added, completely unabashed. We tried to act quite nonchalant, As if people did this all the time. But when our orders were brought out, I did not enjoy mine. I could not take my eyes off Mae, As her pie ALA-mode went down. The other ladies sowed dismay, They ate their lunches silently, and frowned. Well, the next time I went out to eat, I called and invited Mae. My lunch contained white tuna meat, She ordered a parfait. I smiled when her dish I viewed, And she asked if she amused me. I answered, Yes, you do, But also you confuse me. How come you order rich desserts, When I feel I must be sensible? She laughed and said, with wanton mirth, I am tasting all that's possible. I try to eat the food I need, And do the things I should. But life's so short, my friend, indeed, I hate missing out on something good. This year I realized how old I was, She grinned, I've not been this old before. So, before I die, I've got to try, Those things for years I had ignored. I've not smelled all the flowers yet, There're too many books I have not read. There're more fudge sundaes to wolf down, And kites to be flown overhead. There are many malls I have not shopped, I've not laughed at all the jokes. I've missed a lot of Broadway Hits, And potato chips and cokes. I want to wade again in water, And feel ocean spray upon my face. Sit in a country church once more, And thank God for It's grace. I want peanut butter every day, Spread on my morning toast. I want UN-timed long-distance calls, To the folks I love the most. I've not cried at all the movies yet, Nor walked in the morning rain. I need to feel wind in my hair, I want to fall in love again. So, if I choose to have dessert, Instead of having dinner. Then should I die before night fall, I'd say I died a winner. Because I missed out on nothing, I filled my heart's desire. I had that final chocolate mousse, Before my life expired. With that, I called the waitress over, I've changed my mind, it seems, I said, I want what she is having, Only add some more whipped-cream! Be mindful that happiness is not based on possessions, power, or prestige, but on relationships with people you love and respect. Money talks. Chocolate sings.

Subject: Rushdie on Religion - good read/semi-OT? From: Nigel To: All Date Posted: Sun, Mar 10, 2002 at 19:06:26 (EST) Email Address: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk Message: From the Guardian. If you can stomach the first paragraph.. www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/Article/0,4273,4370611,00.html

Subject: Re: Rushdie on Religion - good read/semi-OT? From: Scott T. To: Nigel Date Posted: Tues, Mar 12, 2002 at 11:50:43 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Nigel: Of course there are political explanations. Ever since December 1992, when a VHP mob demolished a 400-year-old Muslim mosque, the Babri Masjid in Ayodhya, which they claim was built on the sacred birthplace of the god Ram, Hindu fanatics have been looking for this fight. The pity of it is that some Muslims were ready to give it to them. Is this accurate? Do Hindu extremists take this belligerent position with any religions other than Islam? I can't think of any, though there's that long standing Tamil controversy. Is Rushdie entirely accurate about the cause of the original conflict? Is it just a matter of peaceful Moslems sitting around minding their own business while Hindu extremists are heating up the fires of discontent? 1. He seems a little 'soft' on Islam's contribution, but perhaps that's just because he feels a bit closer to the Hindu side of things. 2. I'm not sure it's valid to brand all religion as the 'poison,' when it's actually only fanatical religion that's responsible. 3. It is at least possible that it's not religion at all, that is the central problem. There are certainly other forms of evil, including so-called 'secular religions' like Marxism and National Socialism. These seem to escape criticism in his particular model of the problem (understandable when you consider his history). 4. Maybe this is just a complex problem involving a complex solution, rather than a simplistic solution that just labels 'religion' as the problem. 5. The very notion of secularism, as a realm of life and responsibility and authority separate from religion, is distinctly a Christian concept, deriving explicitly from the advice: 'Render unto Caesar..., etc.' 6. As long as humans have the capacity to create symbols that stand for abstract objects of thought we will have 'religion' in some form or other. At least, until the abstract objects for which the symbols stand become more real than the symbols themselves. --Scott

Subject: Point-by-point... From: Nigel To: Scott T. Date Posted: Wed, Mar 13, 2002 at 09:07:12 (EST) Email Address: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk Message: [Rushdie] Of course there are political explanations. Ever since December 1992, when a VHP mob demolished a 400-year-old Muslim mosque, the Babri Masjid in Ayodhya, which they claim was built on the sacred birthplace of the god Ram, Hindu fanatics have been looking for this fight. The pity of it is that some Muslims were ready to give it to them. [Scott] Is this accurate? Do Hindu extremists take this belligerent position with any religions other than Islam? I can't think of any, though there's that long standing Tamil controversy. Is Rushdie entirely accurate about the cause of the original conflict? Is it just a matter of peaceful Moslems sitting around minding their own business while Hindu extremists are heating up the fires of discontent? [Me] Is which bit accurate? A VHP mob certainly demolished that mosque and there has never been any shortage of (peace-loving, cow-worshipping) Hindu fanatics ready to get uppity at the Islamites over the years, and vice versa - and that's just from watching the news. There has certainly been some nasty stuff in the last couple of years between Christian and Hindus - doing unto each other what they would not like to have done unto themselves. And I don't see Rushdie implying Moslems have been sitting around minding their own business in the paragraph cited. [Scott] 1. He seems a little 'soft' on Islam's contribution, but perhaps that's just because he feels a bit closer to the Hindu side of things. [Me] I don't get that impression - nor can I think of a reason why Rushdie would take that stance (since his own roots are Moslem rather than Hindu). From the whole article I would say his contempt was apportioned fairly. [Scott] 2. I'm not sure it's valid to brand all religion as the 'poison,' when it's actually only fanatical religion that's responsible. [Me] It depends on how you apply the metaphor, I guess. I think 'poison' is a pretty good word to describe what, as I see it, all religions do to one's rational mind. [Scott] 3. It is at least possible that it's not religion at all, that is the central problem. There are certainly other forms of evil, including so-called 'secular religions' like Marxism and National Socialism. These seem to escape criticism in his particular model of the problem (understandable when you consider his history). [Me] What have Marxism or National Socialism got to do with India's problems? If little or nothing, then why should Rushdie criticise them in this context? The two belief systems you cite are political philosophies (I assume you would agree). If you broaden the meaning of 'religion' to include all such philosophies, then the word becomes effectively meaningless. [Scott] 4. Maybe this is just a complex problem involving a complex solution, rather than a simplistic solution that just labels 'religion' as the problem. [Me] I don't find it simplistic to identify religion as a root cause (or one of the primary causes) of this and many similar sectarian conflicts. In Northern Ireland, for example, the warring parties would be virtually unable to decide who their enemies were, were it not for their religious stance. [Scott] 5. The very notion of secularism, as a realm of life and responsibility and authority separate from religion, is distinctly a Christian concept, deriving explicitly from the advice: 'Render unto Caesar..., etc.' [Me] Relevance? [Scott] 6. As long as humans have the capacity to create symbols that stand for abstract objects of thought we will have 'religion' in some form or other. At least, until the abstract objects for which the symbols stand become more real than the symbols themselves. [Me] Doesn't ' the capacity to create symbols that stand for abstract objects of thought' more-or-less equal 'language'? - or at least figurative / imaginative language. Why should that make religion inevitable? I have no compulsion to believe in anything unsubstantiable. (And I am not sure what you mean by an 'abstract object', or how it could become more real than the symbols themselves.) I don't know what your definition of religion is, Scott, but for me, whatever it's flavour, religion does tend to embrace certain universals: - A requirement to accept on trust premises for which there is no evidence. - A degree of magical / theistic thinking that is necessary to accept those premises. - A tendency for the believer to assume a moral superiority over non-believers, or those of other faiths. - A dangerous, sometimes reckless downgrading of ordinary ('wordly') human life and associated pleasures, in favour of to some imaginary ('spiritual') kingdom / path. All poison in my book, as you probably know...;)

Subject: Re: Point-by-point..., and staying upright. From: Scott T. To: Nigel Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 14:03:59 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Is which bit accurate? There is at least an implied historical sequence of causation, indicating that that the Hindus were the aggressors in the Feud... or isn't this obvious? Perhaps I should be explicit. No one believes this all started with Ayodhya, not even you. And it's sort of axiomatic that Islam was the original aggressor. don't get that impression - nor can I think of a reason why Rushdie would take that stance (since his own roots are Moslem rather than Hindu). From the whole article I would say his contempt was apportioned fairly. I'm suggesting that he may be leaning over backward to be 'fair' given the fact that everyone knows his history with the Islamists. Don't you think so? (Not that it's terribly important. I'm just making an observation.) It depends on how you apply the metaphor, I guess. I think 'poison' is a pretty good word to describe what, as I see it, all religions do to one's rational mind. I assume you include secular religions in that indictment? Karl Mannheim is probably the most insightful philosopher on precisely how this works, proposing that the only real cure is the 'wandering intellectual' and that even this cure is only marginally effective in the short run. I don't see religious views as particularly evil... especially since they often motivate people to selflessly humanitarian acts that they'd otherwise not undertake through naked self interest, as well as generalized work that they'd otherwise be inclined to shirk (like voting). I'm just not familiar with this pristine state of motivational perfection that you seem to believe would emerge in the wake of God-oriented religion. Seriously, I think it's a pipe dream. What have Marxism or National Socialism got to do with India's problems? Well for one thing it appears to me that both Rushdie's general indictment (not just this particular article) as well as your reason for admiring he and Dawkins, stems from the general proposition that belief in a transcendent spiritual being, intelligence, principle... is especially evil, ignoring the fact that religion can and should be more broadly defined. Secondly, I can't believe you don't think Marxism plays a role in Indian politics. I hope you're not serious. I don't find it simplistic to identify religion as a root cause (or one of the primary causes) of this and many similar sectarian conflicts. In Northern Ireland, for example, the warring parties would be virtually unable to decide who their enemies were, were it not for their religious stance. Well, I don't understand why you're focusing on a few outstanding instances where the Reformation isn't quite over, as though that proves religion evil everywhere... the 'root cause' as you call it. Besides which, the root cause of the Irish conflict could well be considered nationalism mixed with class conflict rather than religion. After all, the Reformation *is* over with practically everywhere else. I would even go so far as to say secularism may be the cure you're looking for, rather than the cause of the problem. Couple it with the Madisonian notion of 'cross-cutting alliances' that undermine class and nationalistic factions and you have a fairly effective way to keep religion as a secondary influence in society... a way to mitigate the bad without quite throwing away the good. Relevance [of secularism]? Thanks for the entertainment, Nige. All I can say is that I sometimes unintentionally say silly/funny things too. In that spirit I think I'll just go on to the next point, in the hope that you'll reciprocate someday when required. :-) Doesn't ' the capacity to create symbols that stand for abstract objects of thought' more-or-less equal 'language'? - or at least figurative / imaginative language. I think that's fair, with the caveat that we are sometimes directly aware of the abstractions themselves, language having performed its function effectively. I don't think this happens very often though. Why should that make religion inevitable? I'm not sure it does. I think it does, though. It's that inherent gap between the actual and the representation that's problematic. I think this is most easily seen in the way we represent complex problems, as though they always have a 'root cause' that's amenable to some Gordian knot strategy. I think this is the 'root cause' of why we have problems that have been around for centuries, essentially without having been affected at all by any of these simple diagnoses or cures. - A requirement to accept on trust premises for which there is no evidence. I submit that this is just an apparently unavoidable aspect of the human condition, that at best we can hope to mitigate. It's certainly not a unique characteristic of belief in God. - A degree of magical / theistic thinking that is necessary to accept those premises. Again, endemic in the human condition... and not only not always problematic, but sometimes beneficial. Charisma (which essentially derives from magical qualities of a leader or group that allow them to dispense with traditional concerns or overcome logical impasse) is an 'escape hatch' according to Weber. You know about this, I'm sure. - A tendency for the believer to assume a moral superiority over non-believers, or those of other faiths. Well, you said it yourself... a 'tendency' is just that. Humans have a tendency to assume moral superiority in general, don't they? Do you think Dawkins believes he's morally equivalent to the Pope? (He might or might not *say* this, but does he really believe it?) - A dangerous, sometimes reckless downgrading of ordinary ('wordly') human life and associated pleasures, in favour of to some imaginary ('spiritual') kingdom / path. I think you may find a 'Freudian' slip in there, though you might have deliberately intended a play on worlds. But to address the concern: again as Weber pointed out this specific proclivity, as distinctly differentiated from the analogous belief in an 'earthly kingdom or paradise,' actually creates a powerful motivation, even a compulsion, for rationality. But I'm sure you're aware of this. I just don't agree that religion is always and only poisonous, nor do I think there's a comprehensive alternative. Of course, you know that I think the greatest recent contribution to philosophy comes from American Pragmatism, and I think these various hermeneutic philosophies are potentially far more damaging than any religion we know of, with the possible exception of radical Islam. We may even agree about that. As for the Irish Troubles, I think you can almost just sit down and wait out the final stages of the Reformation. By the way, I may be coming to the UK for vacation this summer... to do a bike tour and vegetarian tuck in, in Wales. If you and Dave are around, as well as some other UK exes that I've managed to not terminally offend, perhaps we can get together. (I think it's cheaper to fly into and out of London than Cardiff.) Not sure whether I'll bring my laydown bike, or an upright. The upright is more convenient, but the laydown is more comfortable and fun. --Scott

Subject: Right On/Language From: Joe To: Nigel Date Posted: Wed, Mar 13, 2002 at 13:58:59 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I don't find it simplistic to identify religion as a root cause (or one of the primary causes) of this and many similar sectarian conflicts. In Northern Ireland, for example, the warring parties would be virtually unable to decide who their enemies were, were it not for their religious stance. The exact same thing could be said about the former Yugoslavia. Other than religion Catholic/Orthodox/Moslem, those people who killed each other in the thousands could not be distinguished one from the other. In regard to Northern Ireland, I have always thought that if religion weren't such a division, the working class in Northern Ireland, Catholic and Protestant, would have a lot more in common, (common economic repression) than they have to divide them. The religion not only creates a reason for conflict, it keeps people who ought to be united in a common struggle divided. I think especially in the USA, race has been used for similar divisions. Doesn't ' the capacity to create symbols that stand for abstract objects of thought' more-or-less equal 'language'? - or at least figurative / imaginative language This is interesting. I have been reading Chomsky's theories of language and linguistics lately, and it appears that actually we are hard-wired for 'language' which hinges around 'generative grammar' based on the idea of Humboldt's 'infinite use of finite means.' The study of language has supported the idea of generative grammar. A child knows vastly more than experience has provided, even for simple words, and beyond that the conclusion is even more dramatic. Language acquisition seems to be something that happens to a child, not what a child does. So, rather than assigning words to abstract symbols, or even "concrete" symbols, it seems that language generates from inside of us, hard-wired, like the growth of organs generally. And while the environment matters, the general course of development and the basic features of language that emerges are predetermined by the initial state, which is a common human possession. One experiment I found interesting is to ask why these two sentences, which are almost identical in structure, are so different: 1. Jack is easy to please. 2. Jack is eager to please. The theory is that this comes from the generative grammer, a hard-wired, innate, evolved, internal structure, not something that comes from the outside, because there would appear to be no external reason for the vast difference.

Subject: And Dawkins from the same paper, same day.. From: Nigel To: Nigel Date Posted: Sun, Mar 10, 2002 at 19:12:28 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The Science department of Emmanuel College, Gateshead (near Newcastle) has apparently been taken over by Creationsists), downgrading evolution to 'only a theory' status, to be taught to students alongside the (superior) Biblical account of our origins. Richard Dawkins is not best pleased. Well said, RD. www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/Article/0,4273,4371166,00.html

Subject: Re: And Dawkins from the same paper, same day.. From: bill To: Nigel Date Posted: Tues, Mar 12, 2002 at 00:07:10 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Nice to see you post Nigel, I was thinking recently that I missed reading you.

Subject: Here's another one in Time From: Jim To: Nigel Date Posted: Sun, Mar 10, 2002 at 20:13:46 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Darwinian Struggle Is there a place in evolutionary theory for the hand of God? Maybe in Ohio. Hearings start this month BY ROBERT WRIGHT [The author of The Moral Animal -- Jim] Sunday, Mar. 03, 2002 Poor Charles Darwin. He was a kind, gentle soul--decent to a fault, some have said--yet he keeps getting cast as the Antichrist. The latest equation of Darwinism with godlessness comes in Ohio, where some members of the state school board want to downgrade the theory of natural selection in the biology curriculum guidelines. If their effort succeeds, Darwin's theory would have to share the blackboard with a school of thought called 'intelligent design theory.' Boosters of intelligent design--ID, for short--hope this triumph would be the first step toward restoring a spiritual dimension to our understanding of our creation. Critics of ID, which has been billed in the press as new and sophisticated, say it's just creationism in disguise. If so, it's a good disguise. Creationists believe that God made current life-forms from scratch. The ID movement takes no position on how life got here, and many adherents believe in evolution. Some even grant a role to the evolutionary engine posited by Darwin: natural selection. They just deny that natural selection alone could have driven life all the way from pond scum to us. Why doubt natural selection? Here is where the ID movement says basically what creationists have been saying all along: Some living forms are too intricately functional to have been produced by the accretion of randomly generated novelty. Sure, you can imagine giraffes' necks having once been half their current length and slowly growing by natural selection. But what about giraffes' eyes? What good--as creationists have long asked--is half an eye? Darwin anticipated such doubts, and admitted in The Origin of Species that the eye at first seems to imply an intelligent designer. But then he traced a scenario for the step-by-step evolution of a mere 'nerve sensitive to light' into a 'living optical instrument.' If the ID movement is just resurrecting old doubts, how has it managed to get hailed as new and improved? Mainly by putting old doubts in new bottles. Michael Behe, a biochemist at Lehigh University, invented the label 'irreducibly complex' for structures that could not have arisen incrementally. And rather than dwell on the eyeball, he applies the term to such microscopic entities as the human blood-clotting mechanism. In his book Darwin's Black Box, Behe says this mechanism, involving more than a dozen proteins, could hardly have emerged full-blown in a single mutation. Yet it couldn't have been built one protein at a time, he says, because without any one protein it would be useless. Behe's claim set Kenneth Miller, a Brown University biologist who is both a Darwinian and a Christian, to thinking. In his book Finding Darwin's God, he argues that if you look at blood clotting in various species you can see how the human version could have evolved one step at a time. If Miller is right, that doesn't mean the ID movement is worthless. It means ID adherents have raised productive doubts--and in science, being productively wrong is nearly as valuable as being right. But unfortunately for Ohio's curriculum reformers, their argument for putting ID in schoolbooks isn't that it generates productive doubts. Rather, they're billing it as a theory in its own right. And here the ID movement's political past may sabotage its political future. One key to the movement's success has been the decision to take no position on how species originated. This made ID a tent big enough to hold everything from old-fashioned creationists to New Agers who believe a 'vital force' drives evolution. But one result is that ID simply isn't what its Ohio supporters and various journalists have called it--an 'alternative' to Darwinism. Darwinism offers an explanation of how we got here. Any 'theory' that offers no such explanation can't compete--much less win. It isn't even clear that ID can outdo Darwinism in the realm of spiritual consolation. Some of ID's leading figures push God way back in evolutionary time. The philosopher and Baylor University professor William Dembski argues in mathematical language that natural selection, to create life as we know it, must have received some kind of external input. But he allows that this input could be something quite abstract, embedded in the early context of evolution--perhaps in 'boundary conditions' that 'constrain' genetic mutation. But if early, abstract and arguably divine input is what you're after, plain old Darwinism leaves room for that. No one knows how DNA began to replicate or how the universe got built in such a way that replication was possible. It's not crazy to think that such initial conditions were set by some intelligence for an overarching purpose that is still unfolding. After all, look at the spiritually rich products of evolution so far: consciousness, love, the human conscience, morally consequential choice. [Yes, and deceit, cruelty, etc. etc. I'm surprised Wright, who should know better, would throw the Creationists a bone like this] ID adherents may be right to say that some sort of divinity got the evolutionary ball rolling, and that principles designed by that divinity keep it rolling. But they're wrong to think they have to attack poor Charles Darwin in order to make this claim.

Subject: Wright's a creationist From: Jerry To: Jim Date Posted: Mon, Mar 11, 2002 at 18:41:27 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The last I heard, anyway. Isn't that book he wrote, Non-Zero all about how the universe is heading toward some divine purpose, as if somebody planned it this way? Critics of the book, including Michael Shermer, seem to have walked away from it with that impression.

Subject: Tempest in a teacup? From: Carl To: Jim Date Posted: Mon, Mar 11, 2002 at 07:43:27 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Wouldn't the whole issue be moot if one simply defines 'God' as being the sum of all that is, was, and will be? You know, the totality and the 'omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent' deal? When God is discussed as a subset, a 'divinity', as a sort of cosmic CEO, then no wonder people get sceptical or huffy. To judge by human affairs he's made quite a mess ( '. . . if God existed how could he allow to exist so much misery, mayhem etc., etc.') Or, conversely, how could the watch exist but for the mind and hand of the watchmaker. Human limitation and projection has made of God an inspired or bumbling tinkerer (or a 'jealous God' or a 'heavenly Father' or a 'Great Spirit' or you name it . . . projections, probably from fear, the God humans make). Isn't the whole God vs. Evolution vs. Creationism vs. Atheism primarily, then, a problem of definitions and semantics in an area where there are no objective proofs? Perhaps we are left only with thought experiments. It seems to me that within totality and within the unfolding structures of creation there is an inherent organizing 'intelligence', immanent, as potentialities, somewhat like how within everyday sunlight there is the spectrum otherwise unseen but for a prism of some sort. Or, as evolutionary potentialities, this energetic intelligence riffs along improvising on various fundamental mathematical principles, as a jazz musician improvises on thousands of tune forms, chord changes, 'charts', pushing into creative but logical pathways of least resistance as conditions change, mutating and blossoming into the impossibly complex fecundity of nature's themes and variations: Nature as a bebopping hipster trying this, trying that, we've got all the time in the world. Cosmic Coltrane. It coughed up us. Fancy that. One can ask, do mathematics 'exist'? Do crystals and birds, quasars and photons 'know' this science beyond their effortless expression of it? Who discovers mathematics other than humans, through the prism of our minds, so far as we know? But if mathematics or natural scientific laws are there to be discovered, and are demonstrably verified by experience, then they are immanent, yes? Therefore, created? It is an organising intelligence operating upon, or expressing through, matter inexorably, as an inherent irreducible property of the fundamental stuff of creation, whether that is matter or energy, particle or wave. Is it conscious of itself as intelligence? Why not? The sum of all, as totality, would by definition embrace, contain and express all consciousness. Is it 'Love'? Again, why not? The sum of all, as totality, would by definition embrace, contain and express love too, no? The stupendous unfathomable magnitude of It All engenders the awe and natural inclination to call it 'divine' or holy and so on. But our fearful, threatened and divisive human natures impel us to bloody war over our definitions of what is divine. So intelligent! So conscious! This is the sad joke of human history. A rich experience, a dance, a dream, a drama. Adrift. Time for reveille. Now, where are my oars? Carl

Subject: Hi Carl ... From: Anna (Stonor) To: Carl Date Posted: Tues, Mar 12, 2002 at 22:28:14 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Nice to see you here. I'd like to introduce you to my good friend G, who no longer posts at this forum. You seem to have a lot of common interests, and there are many more threads on this topic below the link I've posted. All the best to you, Anna One of many www.hotboards.com/plus/plus.mirage?who=louella&id=8233.6653396780639

Subject: What's your point, Stonor? From: Jim To: Anna (Stonor) Date Posted: Tues, Mar 12, 2002 at 23:38:22 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Are you pushing Creationism now, Stonor? Why did you do this other than to get my goat? By the way, have you ever explained to yourself why, when you were never a premie and have no actual interest here, you can't stay away? Are you just lonely or are you like a spiritual vampire that smells a little blood amongst the exes?

Subject: No, that doesn't quite work From: Jim To: Carl Date Posted: Mon, Mar 11, 2002 at 12:18:57 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Wouldn't the whole issue be moot if one simply defines 'God' as being the sum of all that is, was, and will be? You know, the totality and the 'omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent' deal? Carl, I don't think that's gonna work. It's hardly enough for those who actually believe in an intelligent, powerful and even loving force out there and it's way too much for those who think there's nothing of the sort. Omnipresent, sure, but the other two? I don't thiiiiiiink so.

Subject: How about this From: Carl To: Jim Date Posted: Mon, Mar 11, 2002 at 16:57:03 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Jim, What I'm trying to get at is the notion that the organizing intelligence is inherent in the fundamental stuff of creation, is itself the evolutionary imperative. Call it God and you have beaucoup bloody or sentimental baggage. Call it Nature or the primal force, or any of the thousand names, it is still 'generating, operating, destroying'. As banal as may be this hoary old description, it in no way diminishes its practical 'truth', in my opinion. At the atomic and subatomic levels, where what matter is is perhaps a question of interpretation, the elegant forces, the mathematical intelligences, operate to sustain creation and our lives (so I believe science has determined). As various intelligences are nested within us, and as we are nested within further realms that operate with exquisite creative balance -- just as our cellular and genetic levels operate our organs and senses quite nicely without much input from our waking consciousness, and as we live within the natural world and other energy spectra we do not readily understand or see -- it just seems too apparent that the whole totality is resonating with an incalculably vast awareness, or at least a vibrational integrity. Jeez, what the hell do I mean by 'vibrational integrity'? I guess something like 'as above, so below' or 'the ocean within the drop', 'within you and without you', that sort of thing. Our own awareness of the several human realms easily available to us is but a tiny portion of that totality, but since it appears to extend 'in both directions' a long way (if not infinitely) I'm willing to give it the benefit of the doubt that there is a conscious connnectedness to it all. It may be that at some level, from some vantage point, all matter/energy is conscious. And we humans bop around in that soup, breathe it in, fight, fuck and frolic and forget to stretch our awareness in further directions to embrace more of it. Assuming 'more' is more fun. Can I prove it? I guess not. But I enjoy the discussions. Best, C.

Subject: Have I got news for you, Carl! From: Jim To: Carl Date Posted: Tues, Mar 12, 2002 at 11:57:18 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: What I'm trying to get at is the notion that the organizing intelligence is inherent in the fundamental stuff of creation, is itself the evolutionary imperative. Sorry, Carl, but this is exactly, fundamentally, seriously -- you name it -- untrue. Evolution explains the development of organisms, right down to their intelligence itself, without any organizing intelligence at all. That's the whole point. That's what makes evolution so damn confrontational for religion. It's worse than the Headless Horseman. :) Got any questions? www.talkorigins.org/origins/faqs-qa.html

Subject: Does that include 'consciousness' also? From: Carl To: Jim Date Posted: Tues, Mar 12, 2002 at 15:41:26 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Evolution explains the development of organisms, right down to their intelligence itself, without any organizing intelligence at all. Would an analogy work here? If the universe creates beings as a bio-organism creates seeds and ova -- each a potential replicant of itself, with all its qualities and characteristics -- then wouldn't the originating parent have inherent within itself all the potential passed down to the progeny, and that would include consciousness, intelligence and so on? OR instead, can you get something from nothing, in other words? Or do you see all this as just so much mutation over the eons? (Thanks for the link. I am slowly checking it out, but wanted to respond first.) Carl

Subject: Tell you what, Carl From: Jim To: Carl Date Posted: Tues, Mar 12, 2002 at 19:58:59 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The short answer is no. I guess you can't get something from nothing but you can get complexity from simplicity and that's what evolution's able to do -- without even trying, of course. :) How're you find talk.origin? It's got a wealth of information, much that can directly address your musings.

Subject: Re talk.origin From: Carl To: Jim Date Posted: Tues, Mar 12, 2002 at 20:48:27 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: That is one great site, thanks again. The endless links within the links, gobs of material. I'll be spending a fair bit o' time browsing over there for a while now that it is on my favorites. But it takes me a while to digest it (and it's tiring to read so much on the monitor, my poor eyeballs, those lovely implausibly created orbs!). I used to be so annoyed at born-again christian fundamentalists and other anti-intellectual head-in-the-sand folk who would say things like "Well you know God is so magnificent-clever-whatever that he could create the universe to appear as though it were billions of years old when in fact it is only six thousand years old, as it says right here in the Bible" (or whatever their figure was). And our own dear old cult wasn't that much better. It sought to feed us a fantasy along with a discouragement to pursue 'mere' intellectual inquiry. Yeah, don't bother studying anything worldly. You'll waste your breaths and be dead soon enough anyway. It was probably M's concern that too many premie funds would be directed toward tuition and other teachers instead of toward the divine toilet. Cheers!

Subject: Gott zei dank! From: Scott T. To: Jim Date Posted: Tues, Mar 12, 2002 at 14:08:32 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jim: Evolution explains the development of organisms, right down to their intelligence itself, without any organizing intelligence at all. That's the whole point. That's what makes evolution so damn confrontational for religion. Not that I have so much as a clue concerning what Carl is talking about (Is that English?), and I know that the statement above is virtually the *definition* of evolutionary theory... but do you really think they've proved the case? It seems to me, for instance, that it takes quite a lot of faith to propose that something evolved from nothing... head or no head. And further on down the line I certainly don't see any totally convincing proof that life evolved from non-life. Indeed, the most coherent of these arguments, coming from the people at the Santa Fe Institute, look like they invest the obscure concept of 'complexity' with most of the characteristics of intelligence, without bothering to resolve behaviors at the macro level in terms of incentives at the micro level. And at an even more basic level I'm currently scratching my head over *The Elegant Universe* more or less convinced that the author must be making mistakes in simple math. And I just can't convince myself that anyone has the details right. I had really high hopes for that book, but can't conceive of observing another individual pass me at a constant speed 80% that of light without accelerating my eyeballs out of their sockets so far that they'd rocket into the sun. Yeah, those are just details but the details, it turns out, are *really* important. You can't observe the universe from inside a dimensionless point. I'm just getting a little impatient with all this abstract 'science.' But if you say they've proved the point, then it must be that I'm just overly picky... or my maths are even more deficient than I thought. (I will admit, however, there there just isn't very much room left for God to maneuver. And His range of options is getting more narrow all the time.) --Scott

Subject: Dr Talkington, if I may... From: Dr Reich To: Scott T. Date Posted: Tues, Mar 12, 2002 at 15:58:26 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: interject here...Life from Non-Life In der forties I undertook a series of experiments in vich I heated various substances to incandescence and plunged into an liquid infusion. Viola! little vesichles whch I called bions spontaneously formed vich had many of the der properties of life including ability to reproduce. Und yah, everyting vas clean und sterile. See not alvays was I such of der coconut. (I will admit, however, there there just isn't very much room left for God to maneuver. And His range of options is getting more narrow all the time.) LOL, Dr T, LOL, and agree.

Subject: Dr Frankenjamer's Kids From: Scott T. To: Dr Reich Date Posted: Tues, Mar 12, 2002 at 17:41:33 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dr. Reich: I don't think these sticky molecules impressed very many objective observers as 'life from non-life,' but they were sort of reminiscent of Superman's ability to create a diamond by squeezing a lump of coal. The electromagnetic force the source of life? Interesting notion. A little creepy though. Makes you wonder what other sort of beast might be slouching his way to Bethlehem. --Scott

Subject: The School in question... From: Nigel To: Nigel Date Posted: Sun, Mar 10, 2002 at 19:17:27 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I hear they are making serious progress on how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.... Outrageous this is taxpayers money... www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/Article/0,4273,4371165,00.html

Subject: David Holloway is a dangerous beast From: Moley To: Nigel Date Posted: Sun, Mar 10, 2002 at 19:37:53 (EST) Email Address: moley@redcrow.demon.co.uk Message: He is parish priest of the church where all the Christian-minded Newcastle University students go (being close to the halls of residence). He preaches(to capacity crowds)on the evils of being gay. When the Church of England was voting on whether to have women priests (10 yars ago) he was quoted in the English broadsheets as saying: 'I have nothing against women - as long as they don't tell me what to do'.

Subject: Rushdie parodied Maharaji... From: John Macgregor To: Moley Date Posted: Sun, Mar 10, 2002 at 22:37:26 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ...mercilessly in 'Midnight's Children'. The character was a child genius whose mother saw the main chance, turning him into an incarnation of God and sending him to the West to rake it in for the family. All of which now reinforces my opinion that 'Midnight's Children' is the best novel since the War. And speaking of Richard Dawkins, I wonder how many psychological analogs there are to biological realities? E.g. when Europeans went to colonise the Orient, many of the natives had very little resistance to their germs - e.g. I think Hawaii was decimated by a cold virus, wasn't it? A couple of centuries later the Orient came back to colonise us: that is, our 'native' religions are being overwhelmed by various forms of Hinduism and Buddhism. Maharaji was one of the door-openers for this wave. When he came here, we had no resistance to the psychic infection of the more dangerous aspects of Eastern thought - such as that one man could embody God, and such as a generally nihilistic outlook. (Maya.) However Indians (for example) had inhaled such ideas for centuries, and to some extent may have built up an immuniy to them. They lived with them - just as we live with cold viruses - but they were not psychologically fatal to them - as they proved to be to us. Somewhere I recall one Indian saying 'We listen carefully to our gurus and praise them publicly. But then we go home and do what we want.' We wide-eyed Western innocents, however, had no such preparation. A hasty thought - but it seemed to contain some reality. Best, John

Subject: Maharaji infects the West From: Joe To: John Macgregor Date Posted: Mon, Mar 11, 2002 at 13:22:25 (EST) Email Address: kevjo@mindspring.com Message: And speaking of Richard Dawkins, I wonder how many psychological analogs there are to biological realities? E.g. when Europeans went to colonise the Orient, many of the natives had very little resistance to their germs - e.g. I think Hawaii was decimated by a cold virus, wasn't it? Actually, I think much of North America was decimated by smallpox and other diseases making it easy for Cortez to conquer Mexico and left lots of vacant, although cleared, land for the settlers in New England. A couple of centuries later the Orient came back to colonise us: that is, our 'native' religions are being overwhelmed by various forms of Hinduism and Buddhism. Maharaji was one of the door-openers for this wave. When he came here, we had no resistance to the psychic infection of the more dangerous aspects of Eastern thought - such as that one man could embody God, and such as a generally nihilistic outlook. (Maya.) I think when Maharaji arrived in the West, he benefitted by a whole generation of people who were questioning established morals and values. I'm not sure that the 'eastern' flavor was as important as the fact that it was just different, or seen as different. It purported to focus on happiness from inside, instead of the capitalist/Calvanist principles that materialism was important. As for not having 'defenses' to Maharaji and his cult, for some reason a certain segment of the population seems to be susceptible to cults -- to a closed belief system that seems to provide some relief from uncertainty and the uneasiness that can cause. I'm not so sure that is any less true now than it was then, but the times are much more conformist these days, so we don't see the big splash cults like Maharaji brought in, around the early 70s. Although Buddhism is fast-growing religion in the states, I'm not so sure it's having much influence on established religions, and I'm pretty certain Hinduism isn't having much influence, or at least I'm not aware of it. So, are you suggesting, as some have said before, that premies in India take Maharaji with much bigger grains of salt than premies do in the West? I have always thought this was probably the case. Have you talked to Indian premies who say such things like you quoted?

Subject: Re: Rushdie parodied Maharaji... From: bolly shri To: John Macgregor Date Posted: Mon, Mar 11, 2002 at 05:58:56 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I tried Midnights Children and found it too cluttered with excess vebiage. I didn't stay with it long enough to get a handle on it might try again. For uplifting reading and minimum text try amaritfa fal The beggars strike excellent and draws in the essence of whats good in the major religions and may be because they have some admirable streaks in them we continue to be drawn in bolly shri

Subject: Bahkti Virus.... From: Bai Ji To: John Macgregor Date Posted: Mon, Mar 11, 2002 at 02:27:51 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Sure infected my Heart Drive... I am currently in the process of re-formatting my neurological pathways with all the intelligence I can muster. This, I do with what regularly appears to me, to be little more than the equivalent of a Dr Seuess(sp)manual on 'Life and how to survive it for Gullible idiots' I am aware that I suffer from arrested development due to 3 decades of self doubt supported by a Perfect Master and an Infinitely Flawed Devotee Syndrome. Having said that, I will now say this, I have found consummate support from this Exit Site and the Dear individuals that have taken the time and effort to extend their genuine concern toward me, through this most diffiCult time. My love and gratitude goes out to you all Anth Ji Pat C, Chuck and Andy Ji Marji Ji (Doggie Darshan)XXX Marianne Bai SUCH!!!!!!a banana Ji CYNTHIA You Beautiful, Brave Woman you ****XX Michael Dettmers Donner Ji + Blitzen Tonette Bai Jean Michel Bob Mischler...gone but not forgotten (Now where is that Manuscript?) Faith Bai John Mac JB Lesley + Bilbo McDuck Livia Bai Brian S ********X Housemum ******** cq Stevie Ji Kelly and Hubby ****X Roger the non-gruntled Postie XXXX Dep Dog....woof x Katie Disculta Bai Harry Ji Loafie xxx Moley Nige Sir D Silvia Ji woolfie Joe Ji Jethro Ji Penny Ji GeRJy? Jerry Francesca Ji John the Latvian Lizard Lounger Ji and Jimbo Monmat Ji, Who's (does an apostrophe go there?) pursuit of the essence of Truth remains Relentless to the point of Singularity! Black Hole or Chocolate Starfish? You decide.... I Love It all. Yes I do! (Arggh, now I know I've left you out of this list, horrible people pleaser that i am, i'll now lie awake trying to remember who I have forgotten in my Cult addled brain) Mea Culpa yada yada. Not to forget Cat and David Roupell if they be one and the same, I thank you for contributing to consolidating my inherent feelings of 'Something is terribly wrong with this Picture' by responding only with evasion and Cultspeak on this Bulletin Board. As much as I may care for you as individuals, I have to say that the game is up and we have to see our mistaken Love, Obesience and Trust in M for what it IS. Misguided. Dear Exes, I have unhooked my self, through your thoughtFull postings from a belief system that had hijacked my heritage, my Life. I hope to one day recover fully and Grow the Fuck Up!!!!! Wonders shall never cease. I wish only the BEST for us All. and may Peace Love and Lentils 'Blossom and Grow' Not Rot In all of our Well Deserved Lives. Jai Sat Chit Anand Bai Bai XXXXX

Subject: Francesca, Wherefore art thou? From: What No Best Of? To: Bai Ji Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 02:57:49 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: Bahkti Virus.... From: Livia To: Bai Ji Date Posted: Tues, Mar 12, 2002 at 15:27:56 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dearest Bai Ji, what a fabulous post and much welcome back!!! You are wonderful. Will email you v soon, and look forward very much to lots more posts from you here if you feel like writing. Glad things are getting better for you. Lots and lots of love, Livia XXX

Subject: Hi Livia XXX (nt) From: Bai Ji To: Livia Date Posted: Tues, Mar 12, 2002 at 15:54:23 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Love you Bai Ji From: Richard To: Bai Ji Date Posted: Mon, Mar 11, 2002 at 12:48:12 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: That list made me smile all over. So sweet of you. I've always enjoyed your energy and intelligent words. Please continue to make our lives richer oh irreverent Bai Ji. Richard and his friend the non-gruntled Postie (LOL)

Subject: Ya Know what Richard? From: Bai Ji To: Richard Date Posted: Mon, Mar 11, 2002 at 16:40:27 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I Love you too! Even though I don't know you personally, I am projecting my ideas of who you might be onto you. Sound familiar? The difference is, you actually respond to me which enables me to have a reference to ascertain if my emotional investment in you is worthwhile. UNLIKE Mr up on a Pedastal, that has never even answered One of my innumerable letters to Him except through a secretary with some trite, inane, boring copied satsang that didn't address my Practical Question regarding the Service I was performing.It was only 30 of the Most fruitful years of my Pitiful life! What am I whinging about. I should Just leave if I dont like (Self Knowlege) AArrgggghh, one more fucking sly change of the original Real Deal that I signed up for and I'm gonna vomit! OOps Sorry, my venom was showing! Thank you for all your thoughtfull intelligent posts. You have helped me immensely here. Much Cyber Love Coming at Ya! X Bai

Subject: Re: Ya Know what Richard? From: Richard To: Bai Ji Date Posted: Tues, Mar 12, 2002 at 21:02:54 (EST) Email Address: richard@rogers-graphics.com Message: Bai, Familiar indeed but our projections are not without merit. Neither of us require or expect unwavering devotion or gratitude of the other. Say, you're not that woman that stands at my driveway and throws rose petals under my car tires, are you? Didn't think so. I dig the way you can go from loving kindness to spitting venom to love again. No apologies required as I think it can be healthy to vent. Never doubt the intensity of Bai Ji. :) Below I noticed you mentioned Ron Prezlocki (sp?). I knew him in Denver and thought he was a real stand up guy. Glad to hear he's still cool. Also, you mentioned Homestead, FL where I travel to visit a client every year just when it gets grey and rainy in the NW. Now I'm getting more curious if our paths have crossed before. My email's above if you want to compare notes and I do the confidentiality thing. Thanks again for your kind words. Bye, Bai. Richard

Subject: Yeah that was me Richard.. From: Bai Ji To: Richard Date Posted: Wed, Mar 13, 2002 at 01:42:58 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I have to exhibit my gopiness somewhere, now that the object of my Devotion has Abandoned Me in my Deepest Darkest Hour and I have all these left over flowers from a lifetime of petal flinging and Mala making. Bai the way, I received the restraining order. Talk about a wet blanket...a little crazed devotional stalking never hurt anyone. Well... everyone really. Thanks for the invite Richard I shall take you up on your kind offer and send you some gory details in a few days. Love Bai X

Subject: LOL, Bai Ji!! :) [nt] From: Richard To: Bai Ji Date Posted: Wed, Mar 13, 2002 at 10:27:24 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: Ya Know what From: bill To: Bai Ji Date Posted: Tues, Mar 12, 2002 at 01:01:58 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: HI Bai, I was in the gopi squad in Miami. I know a number of the gopi girls and they seem to go in two directions generally. As ex's, the ones I know but they dont post here, either are so burned by the lord issue that they cannot even look in the direction of 'god' (if you will) with any sort of feeling except rejection. Having a fraudulent stand-in like m (or any of the other spawns of the buddhist or hindu type thinking) puts them and myself, in the position of either caving in to the buddhist/hindu idea that god is not actually real, but is some sort of oneness thing that you are supposed to gradually become. There are a lot of flaws in the thinking that started these religions. The idea that you can play god because, well, one of the reasons that these guys think they can play god is, that they dont have to worry about god being pissed with them because according to thier religions, god is really an unconcious oneness. YOU can set yourself up as god (for the good of others of course) WHY? Basically, it all comes down to this line from the bhagdavad gita...which was either misquoted, or krishna was just wrong, or the guy that wrote the story made a wrong guess about life....here it is......he who IDENTIFIES with the divine merges in me..... That line spawned a horde of guys who self-employed themselves as godheads for the last few centuries. Just because they are so confused about the real nature of life here, does that mean we, as so many devotee have that have faced this same dillema over the centuries, are we now supposed to cave into the idea that NOW that we see that the master is not real, we are (naturally) now to move from devotee to enlightenment by abandoning all concepts about god and spend our years trying to do the buddhist merge idea. OR, we can take a fresh look at the god issue and look beyond the noisy extremists like the creationists and the dawkins guys, and decide by using the evidence presented by our limitations and our human nature to determine if there is a god or not, and to recognise by that evidence whether or not the one who designed the limitations we are under, is a force that cares about you the way you thought rawat did, is concious, is real, or not. Was all your love wasted? Or is there something that knows and counts and saw and says 'keep your love intact only move it to the part of life that does love and supports love, and dont dry up into bitter loss.' Too late to post more, but in my struggle to move from gopidom to SOMETHING, here on the forum I had to struggle to try to understand DNA Materialist reasonings from Dawkins and others, and also buddhist type thinking, optomistic mental evolution thinking like Mike Dettmers is presenting (with some definite valid points), and the christian ideas, and WHY all the variations of awaregod/non-aware god religions that abound all over the planet..... Finally, I started to recognise that our human nature and our limitations (such as: no one can go from success to success to success in life) spoke VOLUMES about the nature of reality here. It is not a very popular topic, but I think it is completely the only unarguable proof about the nature of god and reality here. The only way I know out of the gopi mess for me was to be able to touch really solid ground in my search for a new grounding after losing my house down to the deeply burned foundation of my heart. I say I have been there done that, and am still learning it, but the solid ground has been found, and..... I dont know how this comes across, but this forum presents a withering crossfire to any proclamations of 'knowing' about reality. I am glad they do that, as it has helped me in my search for solid ground. But I am willing today to say, in front of this fierce bow armed crowd, that reality is described by our limitations, and by our human nature. And the nature of god is also described there.

Subject: Re: Ya Know what From: Bai Ji To: bill Date Posted: Tues, Mar 12, 2002 at 15:52:50 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I've always enjoyed your intelligent posts bill. Thanks for taking the lengthy time to respond to me the way you did. Right now the dust is still swirling and my head and emotions are still quite mixed up. I have the feeling that I am in that phase that Cynthia spoke about called 'Floating' due to the painfull nature of this exiting process. Steve Hassan wrote about it in the book 'Combatting Cult Mind Control' which I found most illuminating and beneficial. Whilst I know that I can never return to m after what I now know, Nor do I want to, certain days can be diffiCult to get through. My tendency can be to try and avoid the minute by minute battle as it all can become overwhelming. I am just sitting with it and trusting that what you all say here is true and that I shall eventually shift fully from this space to a less fearfull one. Right now bill, I don't know what I believe re god my place in the cosmology etc. All I do know is that i am here. I have no proof of the veracity of anything else , nor do i have the strength or inclination to go about the business of replacing all my 'old' Knowing with a bunch of new concepts.....just yet anyway. When I was very young, I read the Mahabharata/Bhagavad Gita and was immediately drawn to the concepts therein. Mind you I was completely set up having lost my father at a young age also. Then along He came with 'more powers than ever before' it was all so PERFECT. He was here for me, I was here for Him, what else was there to do but SURRENDER COMPLETELY? My Divine Life has now been revealed to be a Nightmare. It's too early yet to know anything, that's ok too. It'll all go where it needs to eventually, not that i even know that to be true either. So here i sit, stripped of the cosmic Turtle that was holding me up and free floating in the void. Que Sera Sera I've put a copy of Dawkins' The Blind Watchmaker on layby. Though right now reading and absorption are still quite problematic due to Foggy Brain and short attention span. This is just a symptom of depression i know and this too shall pass, it's just frustrating riding through it. You know what I am thinking? that if God exists, I would like some definite benevolence on his half. The tangible kind not the works in mysterious ways kind. Those mysterious ways, I can rightly ascribe to coincidence, synchronicity, good people doing nice things, science, nature, the universe doing it's thing. Magical thinking is now out. So a nice big Monty Python Foot would do nicely thank you, maybe placed just to the left of me to avoid a nasty mess. Untill then, I am going to examine things a tad more closely as I obviously had a defective Bullshit Detector issued. Arghh, I don't think im as angry as I sound, wait a minute, maybe I am and what's wrong with that anyway? I am sick of the NICE veneer that had to be portrayed all these years in order to be viewed as a sane 'Together' premie. Even whilst enduring the most atrocious SHIT. We Wouldn't want to speak our mind and be quietly placed on the Bongo List now would we? AAaaa.. Fuck it! What EVER. I'm not dead yet, just wait till I finish sewing my Superhero outfit, then i'll show ya who's a victim!!! Only Serious. I lived in Miami for a while with Michael and Sally Burgoon out at Homestead. Cooked for Staff Support at the Res, Flowers etc Did you know Gypsy Przewlocki (nee Rogers) and Ron Przewlocki, M's personal security. They live in Arizona now, people I love a lot. Anyway, ta bill, thanks for your insights. Take Care X Bai

Subject: Re: Ya Know what From: bill To: Bai Ji Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 00:26:09 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi XBai, I will help you speed read 'the blind watchmaker'. It talks about some evidence we have of the way things evolved. But the author is so enthused about his hopes for what the evidence MIGHT imply, that he slants the book so that you will think that it is the almost virtually proven picture of reality. When it is just him taking some facts and then guessing too much. There you have it. I dont remember the freinds you mentioned. Their faces I would no doubt recognise, My aspirant program was 3 months of satsang with only Rehka Loomba Dasi speaking to me alone. You can imagine !! Followed by Millenium and the rest. You have a good wit, even in your anguish, besides the BIG FOOT, what form of benevolence would qualify for 'Tangible' ? You said: 'The tangible kind not the works in mysterious ways kind. Those mysterious ways, I can rightly ascribe to coincidence, synchronicity, good people doing nice things, science, nature, the universe doing it's thing' Is it too bold to ask you....hmmm.....maybe you are wrong? Hope this is not too way out from left field, but in my digging through the whole mess, without taking the time to tell you all the reasons why I have come to this, well, I am just going to try to wing it somehow right now skipping stuff I would say to others on the forum. Take this one example of our limitations, No One can go from success to success to success. Life will not allow it. Short answer, there is something that throws trouble to everyone without missing ANYONE. Short answer again, from this, we can determine that we all have an intelligent enemy (if you will allow that term). You had said.... '..the universe doing it's thing' Well, we DO have the troublemaker 'doing it's thing', and NOT ONE person is able to avoid it. So maybe -'coincidence, synchronicity, good people doing nice things, science, nature'- should not be edited off the list of ways 'benevolent' things can come to you from the big footed god. Unfortunately, the evidence does not support the idea that 'god is all loving', or as jesus put it...'the devil knows not for whom he works' That is a hell of a line if you ask me. And I think it is his second best line. Not a lot of religions tie god and the devil(if you will) together as working buddies ! I have to go back to that line one more time, -no one can go from success to success to success in life-. The other limitations we are under, basically seem to set us up in a situation where, well, I dont know if I can manage to capture that in words tonight, but for me, what are my options? Here I am, armed with time and energy, and putting the issue of creature comforts and working aside, my best option is to TRY to take all the best qualities I can muster, and TRY to have love in my heart, and even though another of our limitations is that we cannot be constant, and we cannot completely control our experience, I can live and find someone to love today, bring some sun, maybe some fun, and start fresh every day no matter that I HAD to have 'mistakes' or problems in the past. And I will have problems today also. Life demands it. You know, I know a few 'tough guys'. They were all fresh on the scene, ready to do battle with laws, others, niceties, disregarding any limitations we are under here on this playing field of life, drugs, drink, thier own human nature and limitations defeated them all. tough guys end up on thier knees! I am not talking about society and jails doing it. I may be the wrong guy to talk to frankly, because I cant lead anyone to a lovey dovey view of god. (not that YOU were looking for that out of me). But there is too much evidence that there IS a god, and frankly, I am a bit scared of the guy because the game being played here is more than a little rough. I have freinds that say 'oh heavenly father' and I am like, 'excuse me, HF, but I do know you exist, but YOU got a hellacious game going on here. Like the guy in Fiddler on the Roof, good guy, plays along, knows a little something about reality here, and his family and town and everything he worked for gets ripped apart. He is still intact, but sheesh! You and I also have to (in spite of) our past, make something out of today. We CAN have more good things in our life, granted we will have some problems just because... but you and I have years ahead of us and they are filled with all possibilities. All you lost you could regain, in a different way, maybe a very good way. You and I DO need to take action, cant hide away where life cant help us make things happen. We DO need to try. Dont give up on your dreams that seem missed. They can happen in a different way. Still. Hope

Subject: Shit bill,now i've lost my deposit.. From: Bai Ji To: bill Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 02:28:56 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hello mr bill, Tnks fr th spd rdng crs X I'll have to apologise to my local book Dealer if i'm to hold my head up in this town. i dnt kno wht th fuks gong on. bt i do thnk yu hve a gd grp n it i kno tht whn th dst setls i hope t hve n ntrnsc trst n a bnevlnt frce. Gve me sm tym nd eyl be happy agin. Shit I sound egsuctly like a NuZulunder! Cat maybe or Stephen Hawking on Helium. (Thesis there somewhere..) Much cuddles to you bill X

Subject: Re: Shit bill,now i've lost my despair From: bill To: Bai Ji Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 22:46:47 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi XB, I like the word iii, or ntrnsc. that was such a hopeful line, really made my day. Today was one of those days where a lot happened but it all went my way and so many things happened that were tailor made just for me. It was sort of a benevolent burst fer christs sake. I could list the stuff, some would be hard for anyone else to understand why it was tailor made for me, of course, the car battery also went dead, and one project blew up in my face, but at least now I know that I HAVE to have some amount of trouble in some form and that is just the way it is. You know, it really does matter how we see the big picture. Have one view, and you are bowing 5 times a day towards a rock in Mecca. Imagine the dreadful burden buddhists have, first, they have to do the impossible, and they have the threat of millions of years of being reborn in bodies of suffering to get back to a human form, and right now, while they have it, they better figure out how to merge! ugh! Yet for me today, life lined up too many 'coincidences' that are tailor made for me and basically is saying to me, 'yeah you DO have many hardships that come, but see, life also can deal you a hand where you KNOW random chance could never pull it off.' I used to have days or times that were special in the past, and of course I thunk that prem rawat was in some way a part. He DID leave no room for me to think someone else was involved. Like he said in the late nineties....'(dont) thank god?!?! Thank the MASTER!' Thanks prem, put another nail in my coffin. Still, as I was remided of today, trouble filled as life gets sometimes, it is also tender and somehow able to do some personal touches. As a gop, (male gopi) The freaking dust took years on the forum to settle. And it was only when I was able to have confidence in the validity of evidence, that I could settle down into a relationship with life that I could invest my heart in. If life is like some guys say, it is too cold for me. If life is like some guys say, it is too mean for me. If life is like some guys say, it is too hopeless for me. I got to the forum a few years before you so I can speed read you also {I think} ALL the theories about how guys say life is. They all fail on some point or another. Yes it is cold mean and hopeless, but it is also all the good stuff. And that good stuff extends to you and me. We CAN live in the warmth of a life that wants to love us. You have lived a life of love. I know walls were erected around us, as we did the will of a false god. But our hearts were definately on. Strong we are actually. Just charge through the dust if you can and revel in the joy of living today if you can. Think right now of the top couple things you would like in your life right now. They can happen. A little differently than you imagine, but they can happen. Do you need money for something? I will try to help. I had no one in my 3D world when I came to the forum that I could talk to. Luckily, the forum really came to life. I hope you have someone whom you can cuddle with during this time. If not, do make yourself available in ways where life can help make that happen. You deserve that. One thing that can be said about a 30 year devotee, you have a true heart. That needs an outlet. Towards life, and towards someone special. And hard as it is, I TRY to muster that up to everyone. We dont really have a choice frankly. Life is too hard when I close off. I guess it is trying to tell me something, like- open up buddy! Well, I guess that IS in my best interest. I dont post much on the forum, mostly read, I hope I am not blabbing at you too much! I know it is a world of hurt to leave the rawat family religion mess. I just dont want you to take as long as I did. Losing bearings is the hardest thing perhaps. New bearings are there to lock on to. Avoid the distracting voices. Jump to the head of the class. My wife has put on some tonnage, you know, there are lots of guys that just dont care about that. I am one of them. Women are harsh to each other too often. Dont let the harshness of the world deter you from a brand new day. It is a world of love if we want to live it that way.

Subject: My Dear Bill, Thank You... From: Bai Ji To: bill Date Posted: Fri, Mar 15, 2002 at 03:30:53 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Your words do me Goood. I am bereft right now, but things will shift, soon I hope. I do have an ntrnsc naievete that may see me through. Or it just may fuck me up agin, anywhichway a grrls gotta do..... Ta muchly for your concern re me, I am deeply touched. (well that's been suggested before by people in the medical profession also) I hope to talk with you again bill Love Bai Ji xxxx

Subject: Re: From: bill To: Bai Ji Date Posted: Sun, Mar 17, 2002 at 00:56:21 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You didnt miss my question about money did you?

Subject: Hope I'm not butting in From: Carl To: bill Date Posted: Tues, Mar 12, 2002 at 06:47:05 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: but I want to say how much I appreciate your emotionally honest post. It seems that you are wrestling with the big issues, the ones we all thought were so neatly answered by our dear old cult. The thinly veiled hinduism we were wrapped in (and scarcely understood) offered for a time a fresh vantage point and alternative to the scarcely understood dogmas into which we were born. But we jettisoned so much, our 'god-given' powers of discernment, free inquiry and debate and the so-called western tradition of scientific methodology. We loved the la-la land. I have no quarrel with hinduism or buddhism per se. Or even christianity and dozens of other systems, for that matter. They are the attempts by, and reflections of, our human limitations to understand what is going on here in the universe. They probably serve a good purpose for preventing total social chaos, and have inspired considerable artistic and imaginative beauty. But then nincompoops from all schools of thought will use their doctrines and jargons as bludgeons and tools of coercion. It reminds me of different gangs converging on a street corner to batter each other with their placards that read 'God is Love', 'May Peace and Wisdom Prevail' and the like. (Just see what is happening in India lately, or the Middle East, or in Northern Ireland.) The imagination, one of our human capacities, is perhaps the most awesome tool in our scientific and philosophic kit. Is it a limitation? a boon? or both? I recall that Albert Einstein said 'Imagination is more important than knowledge.' Here is another Einstein quote: 'He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would fully suffice. This disgrace to civilization should be done away with at once. Heroism at command, senseless brutality, deplorable love-of-country stance, how violently I hate all this, how despiceable an ignoreable war is; I would rather be torn to shreds than be a part of so base an action! It is my conviction that killing under the cloak of war is nothing but an act of murder.' And another: 'As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain; as far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality.' (wow!) (Of course we now have to avoid creating the Einstein religion!) All our philosophies and the shapes of our civilizations are the reflections of our human imagination. But that is not to ignore the 'solid ground', as you put it. There do seem to be fundamental principles of human wisdom, the Golden Rule perhaps chief among them. Is it provably 'true' or 'scientific'? Would it matter? What have you discovered to be the solid ground? Best, C.

Subject: Re: Hope I'm not butting in From: bill To: Carl Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 00:42:29 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks for the comments, quotes and the question. Hell, I'll send you membership money to join the einstien cult with you:) The above post also had you in mind when I made it. Thoughts?

Subject: Tough times cause paranoia? From: Carl To: bill Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 22:35:06 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: However, as the guy said, just because you're paranoid doesn't mean that God isn't really out to get you . . . ! But seriously, it seems that you are harboring the idea that there is some force or agency or god that is personally tripping you up from time to time, targeting you. Is that what you meant? Or what about the karmic concept? But one has to accept reincarnation for that to 'work'. (Else how to explain disasters happening to infants, or the existence of Mozart and other prodigies.) Just how 'calculating' is God in any individual case, I wonder; just how meddlesome in tweaking one's experience to provide 'needed lessons' or other salutary tribulations. Or do you think this may just be our human tendency to project a divine design upon random or infinitely complex chaotic events? Maybe humans are creating God as we go -- on the fly, so to speak -- in terms and with (projected) qualities that we can readily apprehend. 'Tis late now; time for some serious nocturnal astral traveling and window-rattling snoring! Best, C.

Subject: Carl & XBai From: bill To: Carl Date Posted: Sun, Mar 17, 2002 at 00:49:37 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Carl, I hit on the issue after you wrote this post, but I hadnt seen this post yet, in the post to XB above. Jim and others, over the years, have done quite a good job of finding flaws in many of the basic building blocks of peoples views on reality. When I personally look at the reality issue, I tried to make sure what pieces I picked up could stand thier withering gaze, and also Mike Dettmers admonition not to be tripped up by experience. Where thanks to the forum, I can go through a list of flaws of most all the more popular ideas about reality here, I forget at the moment precisely how, or when, but human nature became my focus. And from there, I noticed our limitations. We have a number of limitations that in and of themselves defeat whole catagories of belief systems and religions. (I am getting to your question!) One of our limitations is that no one is able to lead a completely successful life... I keep eraseing sentences because there are so many side issues to just this one limitation. And how just it alone impacts this or that belief system and why it is so massive of a limitation. A screaming limitation if you will. Anyway, being 12:16 am, this is a nutshell version. erased sentences again! Not fair, I will start earlier tomorrow. You said; 'But seriously, it seems that you are harboring the idea that there is some force or agency or god that is personally tripping you up from time to time, targeting you. Is that what you meant?' tonights short answer.... as surprised as I am to find myself actually saying such nonsense here on the fierce forum, the evidence provided by our limitations gives me no option but to come clean and say ,well, what other conclusion can I draw from our limitations? You know, thanks for asking, That last line provides me with a way to approach talking about this subject... I will start off with 'Are there any other conclusions I can draw from this limitation (no 1, or no.2 or no.3 ect.) besides (blah blah blah). I will be surprised if someone can offer different winning opinion, but what the heck, I dont care where the chips fall, just as long as they are true chips. My personal opinion at this point is that the only conclusion I can make is .........aauughh! well, the answer to your question is YES. 'Or what about the karmic concept? But one has to accept reincarnation for that to 'work'. (Else how to explain disasters happening to infants, or the existence of Mozart and other prodigies.)' The karma concept as thunk up by buddha, has to be about the most burdensome ugly picture of reality any religion has at this point. (there are some ugly runner ups!) Not sure if the hindu's came up with it first, and he just stole it and added more misperceptions, but the 66 million 'untouchables' in india would love to know that karma is a false notion and in reality, thier higher class neighbors, just like having local people they can use as slaves and blame the slaves for being slaves by saying anyone born in that family, was MEANT to be a poor slave to higher castes. Because they didnt use thier last human life to merge with buddha. Or didnt merge SOMEWHAT so they could be born in a higher caste. Hey! at least they made it to human form! christ that religion is nuts. ''Tis late now; time for some serious nocturnal astral traveling and window-rattling snoring!' I agree Carl, see you tomorrow. Best, C.

Subject: ReTough times cause growth or destruction From: bill To: Carl Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 22:56:29 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Carl, It IS late like you said. Let me print out your post and read it tomorrow a few times during the day.

Subject: Butt away Carl x (nt) From: Bai Ji To: Carl Date Posted: Tues, Mar 12, 2002 at 19:17:41 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: Bahkti Virus.... From: PatC To: Bai Ji Date Posted: Mon, Mar 11, 2002 at 04:37:41 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Your posts always make me smile. Thanks. I like the way you write. Even when you claim that you're feeling a bit ''uncultivated'' you come off sounding absolutely fabulous and I sure hope you are.

Subject: Re: Bahkti Virus.... From: Bai Ji To: PatC Date Posted: Mon, Mar 11, 2002 at 16:57:37 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Dear Pat, I am still here, sometimes Just but still here, Lurking. Waiting to read each morsel of direct information re my betrayal by my Perfect Master. I sift through the site , hoping that a Brave PAM (Person Around Maharaji) has posted while I've been asleep and filled in some of the missing pieces of my life. I can't get too frustrated as I know how frightening this all can be. But shit I admire those that do. It takes such courage and is of invaluable help gluing and validating me at my core. So much of what I have endured has served to undermine my belief in my Self to a dangerous level. Major Construction underway, that is after the Demolition is completed. I haven't felt to post for a while, just been Lurking. OT's (Off Topics)hold No interest for me at this stage of my life, Exiting is a Full Time Job and I need tools to help me. I come here to get any Hammer Drill/Shovel that I can. Pretty one pointed again I guess. I think of you often and want to thank you for being caring of me. XXXXBai Ji

Subject: To Bai Ji From: JHB To: Bai Ji Date Posted: Mon, Mar 11, 2002 at 18:14:57 (EST) Email Address: brauns@apollo.lv Message: Bai Ji, I'm also pretty one-pointed here these days. Having seen the lengths premies, almost certainly under Maharaji's orders, will go to to stop us, I don't mind chatting a little, but I feel very much on a war footing. I am currently trying to get a victim of sexual advances from Maharaji to tell her story. I know that would break the spell for a whole lot of people, and leave the Catweasels floundering. Be strong, you've just been through something most people can't imagine. After this, you can handle anything:-) All the best, John.

Subject: Thanks John X (nt) From: Bai Ji To: JHB Date Posted: Tues, Mar 12, 2002 at 16:26:06 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: I wish I had some TNT, Bai Ji From: PatC To: Bai Ji Date Posted: Mon, Mar 11, 2002 at 17:55:29 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Wouldn't it be great if you could get the demolition done quickly and start the fun bit of reconstructing. Actually, I didn't really have to do much reconstruction because, under all the cult crap, was a pretty happy, practical fellow anyway. But, of course, I was not in it up to my ears in quite the same way you were. You know I'm always only an email away if you need anything. Lots of love to you.

Subject: Re: Rushdie parodied Maharaji... From: Jim To: John Macgregor Date Posted: Sun, Mar 10, 2002 at 22:51:07 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Amazon.com Anyone who has spent time in the developing world will know that one of Bombay's claims to fame is the enormous film industry that churns out hundreds of musical fantasies each year. The other, of course, is native son Salman Rushdie--less prolific, perhaps than Bollywood, but in his own way just as fantastical. Though Rushdie's novels lack the requisite six musical numbers that punctuate every Bombay talkie, they often share basic plot points with their cinematic counterparts. Take, for example, his 1980 Booker Prize-winning Midnight's Children: two children born at the stroke of midnight on August 15, 1947--the moment at which India became an independent nation--are switched in the hospital. The infant scion of a wealthy Muslim family is sent to be raised in a Hindu tenement, while the legitimate heir to such squalor ends up establishing squatters' rights to his unlucky hospital mate's luxurious bassinet. Switched babies are standard fare for a Hindi film, and one can't help but feel that Rushdie's world-view--and certainly his sense of the fantastical--has been shaped by the films of his childhood. But whereas the movies, while entertaining, are markedly mediocre, Midnight's Children is a masterpiece, brilliant written, wildly unpredictable, hilarious and heartbreaking in equal measure. Rushdie's narrator, Saleem Sinai, is the Hindu child raised by wealthy Muslims. Near the beginning of the novel, he informs us that he is falling apart--literally: I mean quite simply that I have begun to crack all over like an old jug--that my poor body, singular, unlovely, buffeted by too much history, subjected to drainage above and drainage below, mutilated by doors, brained by spittoons, has started coming apart at the seams. In short, I am literally disintegrating, slowly for the moment, although there are signs of an acceleration. In light of this unfortunate physical degeneration, Saleem has decided to write his life story, and, incidentally, that of India's, before he crumbles into '(approximately) six hundred and thirty million particles of anonymous, and necessarily oblivious, dust.' It seems that within one hour of midnight on India's independence day, 1,001 children were born. All of those children were endowed with special powers: some can travel through time, for example; one can change gender. Saleem's gift is telepathy, and it is via this power that he discovers the truth of his birth: that he is, in fact, the product of the illicit coupling of an Indian mother and an English father, and has usurped another's place. His gift also reveals the identities of all the other children and the fact that it is in his power to gather them for a 'midnight parliament' to save the nation. To do so, however, would lay him open to that other child, christened Shiva, who has grown up to be a brutish killer. Saleem's dilemma plays out against the backdrop of the first years of independence: the partition of India and Pakistan, the ascendancy of 'The Widow' Indira Gandhi, war, and, eventually, the imposition of martial law. We've seen this mix of magical thinking and political reality before in the works of Günter Grass and Gabriel García Márquez. What sets Rushdie apart is his mad prose pyrotechnics, the exuberant acrobatics of rhyme and alliteration, pun, wordplay, proper and 'Babu' English chasing each other across the page in a dizzying, exhilarating cataract of words. Rushdie can be laugh-out-loud funny, but make no mistake--this is an angry book, and its author's outrage lends his language wings. Midnight's Children is Salman Rushdie's irate, affectionate love song to his native land--not so different from a Bombay talkie, after all. --Alix Wilber Midnight's Children www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0140132708/qid=1015818009/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_7_1/104-8768544-8059164

Subject: It's really real !!! From: gerry To: All Date Posted: Sun, Mar 10, 2002 at 17:46:40 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Finally! Lara from Aley tells how her childhood dreams have unfolded since receiving Knowledge... What I have been thinking about ever since childhood is finally starting to unwrap in front of my very eyes, and all the credit goes to my master: Maharaji. All my questions that used to circulate daily: Is there really a Santa Claus? What about the Easter Bunny? Who really put those quarters under my pillow each time I lost a baby tooth? have been answered and in more simplicity than I ever thought possible. (Yes on all three, btw) My life has new meaning, sounds ring out more clearly and days are just BETTER. And this will be the best Christmas ever! That one thing that always seemed MISSING no matter what was there, has suddenly nestled in, and i KNOW that it will never be missing again. I just want to take this opportunity to thank Maharaji for giving me and everyone else this precious gift of nollige. There are many people here in Lebanon waiting for him to come so they can receive self-nollige. We can hardly contain ourselves due to the excitement!! (snicker) This is a new start for me... (phase two?) Thank you, Maharaji.

Subject: Cliffy's in Luv From: gerry To: gerry Date Posted: Sun, Mar 10, 2002 at 17:54:06 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Remember the Motown record, Chuckie's in Love? How about this whacknut: Cliff Arens This lovely life Cliff from the Bronx district of New York City has a short but telling story... In the last two years, you have brought so much joy and smiles to my life... You are my truest love... Hoo whaaaa, Cliffy boy,at least get yerself a blowup doll...

Subject: Yes I'm Special...te dum de do tra la tra la From: I'm so special... To: gerry Date Posted: Sun, Mar 10, 2002 at 17:54:28 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: This one needs no improvements: Jenny Sandara Quispe Nacayauri An amazing feeling For Jenny Sandra from Lima, Knowledge has made her life special... To be in this love, makes me feel like someone so special in this life... I am so thankful to my best friend Maharaji, my dear master.

Subject: A neutral perspective From: Richard To: All Date Posted: Sun, Mar 10, 2002 at 17:19:17 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Recently, I called an old pre-K friend who I haven't seen in 25 years. In the course of conversation, I mentioned my 911-triggered post traumatic stress (PTSD) from childhood paralysis. He later asked 'Hey, whatever happened to that guru you were into?' I told him that I was no longer into M&K. After our conversation, he took it upon himself to do a Google search for Maharaji and found EPO. Following is the email from my friend. I think his observations, from an unbiased and neutral viewpoint, are quite remarkable. He is a PhD college professor and has approached the topic of leaving M&K in a scholarly way. Richard, Thanks for both calling and writing. After your call, I did a search and then went to the ex-premie.org web site and did a bit of reading. If the info is to be believed, then Prempal Rawat must be a big disappointment. However, it seems to me that spiritual growth made by the followers is valid and so the followers, who believed deeply, were the ultimate winners, as long as the belief went beyond Rawat. That's my quick take with a positive spin, but could be wrong. It did occur to me that this transition (premie to ex-premie) alone would be enough to shell shock (PTSD) someone, so I wonder if this might be in the mix. By 'in the mix' he is wondering if my leaving M contributed to my PTSD. I replied that in my case, I had left M&K years before but that it is possible that the numbing effect of M&K may have allowed me to avoid feeling the old trauma until 911. In the past I would have argued that was a good thing. Now I know it is better for me to have faced the music and dealt with my trauma. I also told him that some people who do a rapid exit have expressed PTSD symptoms. Having one's cosmology suddenly ripped out from under them could be traumatic indeed. Interestingly he observes that those who 'believed deeply' benefited regardless of M's betrayal. I agree. I think that just going through the motions was an end in itself and other Ex's have said the same. Of course there was the ol' switcheroo by M but does that negate our sincerity? Once I saw that my sincerity was being squandered, it became my responsibility to tell the truth about what went down so others will know. As my friend says "as long as it went beyond Rawat". Richard

Subject: Re: A neutral perspective From: Scott T. To: Richard Date Posted: Tues, Mar 12, 2002 at 11:16:34 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Richard: As my friend says 'as long as it went beyond Rawat'. Is this really neutral? Suppose the entire paradigm upon which Rawat's 'worldview' was based was false? Wouldn't 'spiritual growth' involve going back and starting over? Wouldn't Rawat's little digression be a bit like the penalty laps that winter biathletes have to endure when they miss the target too many times? One thing seems pretty clear. There aren't any faultless leaders, though we seem pretty taken with the idea that there are. Why? In reading David Garrow's *Bearing the Cross' about MLK, Jr. King was apparently obssessed with the possibility that the broader public would find out about his 'compelling needs,' which make Bill Clinton's exploits look positively modest. Leaders are flawed. It's how they cope with those flaws that reveals their character--their 'fitness' for the job. --Scott --Scott

Subject: Good questions, Scott From: Richard To: Scott T. Date Posted: Tues, Mar 12, 2002 at 14:15:40 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Scott, by "neutral perspective", I simply meant that he is neither PWK nor EX but an independant observer. Your other questions are good ones that I don't have clear answers for. I do think your 'penalty laps' metaphor is excellent. At least we were in the game even though the game was rigged. With Clinton, it wasn't that he was getting serviced in the Oral Office that bugged so many people, it was the fact he lied about it that is unforgiveable. Many premies will say 'Who cares if M's getting it on the side?' That's not the point, it's the ethics involved with seducing trusting devotees that is the point. Same with the other issues raised here.

Subject: The Flawed Leader From: Scott T. To: Richard Date Posted: Tues, Mar 12, 2002 at 17:49:58 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Richard: With Clinton, it wasn't that he was getting serviced in the Oral Office that bugged so many people, it was the fact he lied about it that is unforgiveable. Many premies will say 'Who cares if M's getting it on the side?' Why? Isn't this where the oval orifice of a holy man is located? (It came to me in a flash.) --Scott

Subject: I like this post Richard From: Loaf To: Richard Date Posted: Tues, Mar 12, 2002 at 09:56:57 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It rings a lot of bells with me. The ripping away of an inner world ....... As I keep saying, I would rather have been a premie and left than never have been a premie at all. I was watching some old video clips with Nigel and Mouldie yesterday (that I had dug out of my bin) and I really found I can only watch the Judith Chalmers Maharaji Travelogues - I cant listen to him speaking, but I am nostalgic for the festivals and Holi. I LOVED them !!!!! My memories are still precious to me... but i cant listen to him talking any more.. it seems that in all the thousands of times I heard him speak he didnt say anything about anything.. just a lot of pauses and bleats which stimulated and soothed the brain, but actually he didnt say much, and even the one word was of value.. FEEL was used to numb and bind me. It remains good advice though.. to feel and to question 'this life' and to carry on with your integrity and your quest intact ! i wouldnt have missed it for the world. Your friend sounds Brilliant ! is he good looking ? Loafie

Subject: Re: I like this post From: Richard To: Loaf Date Posted: Tues, Mar 12, 2002 at 11:53:09 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yes, Loafie Ji, the memories are ours to keep. They are memories of an open heart and wedding night lovers. Just because the beloved proved unworthy does not mean we did not feel love. That love was ours to give and is ours to keep. Bursting into song: And in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make. It sure is wonderful to be both lover and beloved with a my wife who is a real human being. Loaf, my friend is brilliant, a college professor, guitarist and pianist, handsome, married with two sons in their twenties and decidedly straight. Sorry to pop your bubble but there's other geese in the sky, errr fish in the sea.

Subject: Re: A neutral perspective From: Joe To: Richard Date Posted: Mon, Mar 11, 2002 at 13:41:29 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'm not sure what this person means by 'as long as it went beyond Rawat', but it seems he might be saying that you might have gotten something good by being in cult. Like, for example, if you looked beyond what a fraud Maharaji is, and were able to reduce stress by doing meditation, then that would be a 'benefit' kind of a 'side effect' of something that is almost entirely a deception.

Subject: Re: A neutral perspective From: Richard To: Joe Date Posted: Mon, Mar 11, 2002 at 14:00:41 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I should ask him directly what he meant but, from his email, I assumed he recognized that M was a fraud but one could benefit as long as M wasn't the be all and end all. I guess the argument hinges on whether one considered his/her involvement as personal growth or serving the living Lord. We all know what M wanted us to believe. As I type this, I realize how difficult it was to see 'beyond Rawat' but somehow I believe I did. Funny, Joe but I recently found one of my first posts where you challenged my saying the same thing. At this point I admit I could still be protecting my ego from having wasted those years by thinking I benefited. I even hesitated to include that part of his comments because I'm not totally convinced one way or the other. Hard to say some 30 years on.

Subject: Re: A neutral perspective From: Jennifer To: Richard Date Posted: Mon, Mar 11, 2002 at 08:31:17 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Your friend's assessment of any 'spritual growth' under Rawat is questionable. I'm not sure how much of the website he took the time to read. I say this because the main emphasis of goomradji was on devotion to a master, wasn't it? To me, that isn't growth (spiritual, personal, whatever) it's dependency of the highest form. That's just my take. Remember the scary things like the 'rotting vegetables' and the fear that one wasn't being devoted enough or trusting enough or too much in one's mind? My aunt who ended up killing herself certainly didn't attain any growth. She wasn't able to get past goomradji because he didn't allow for that. (Unfortunately there was no ex-premie.org in her day.)

Subject: I'm sorry, Jennifer From: Richard To: Jennifer Date Posted: Mon, Mar 11, 2002 at 12:33:01 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: So sorry to hear about your aunt, Jennifer. That's truly a tragedy. The key part of my friend's comment was as long as the belief went beyond Rawat. It is true the Knowledge as offered by M is all about absolute surrender and devotion to him. It is sold as a personal experience but it is about codependence. But my point was that even though M turned out to be unworthy of our sincerity, there was some benefit in going through the motions. Not all agree, of course, but that's my experience (pardon the expression). I agree that my friend had only had a quick look at EPO. Still, I thought his unbiased opinion was interesting especially his comment about PTSD being a natural result of exiting.

Subject: Thank you, Richard From: Jennifer To: Richard Date Posted: Tues, Mar 12, 2002 at 09:14:11 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: To comment more, I'd have to know exactly which beliefs you or your friend might consider to be okay beyond Rawat. (or what your experience was that was beneficial to you.) I agree with Rawat that people should enjoy their lives. He and I part company there. I completely disagree with his belief that knowledge and devotion are the only ways to accomplish joy and fullfillment. That is just plain ridiculous. If someone enjoys meditation, fine, but I don't think it should be made into something it's not. Of course, that is just my experience, too! I think the main benefit from going through the motions (IF one survived it, that is) would be 'That which does not kill us makes us stronger'*--ya know what I'm saying? You get out of a cult and you live to tell, you are one strong person! Everyone here should be very proud of themselves for that one :) It seems to be entirely possible that PTSD could show up later because of exiting a cult, which for most premies is a very stressful event. I also believe others could walk away more easily and perhaps not be effected as harshly. This would depend upon one's personality, how devoted you were to Maharaji, how deeply entrenched in the belief system you were, etc. (*Eleanor Roosevelt said this, didn't she?)

Subject: Nicely said, Jennifer From: Richard To: Jennifer Date Posted: Tues, Mar 12, 2002 at 14:37:23 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I can't add anything to what I've said elsewhere in this thread. If devotion to M was the total package, I think no benefit was to be had because there was no return on the investment. But, for myself, there were personal growth benefits that did go beyond M. Sure he was the misdirected object of my devotion but, as I said to Loaf above, I was the one who felt the greater capacity to love regardless of the motivation of the beloved. I learned how to be impeccable in my craft because I thought M deserved that. Now I bring that learned impeccability to my business and am nicely rewarded for it. So for me, it wasn't a total waste of time. I'm not letting M off the hook, just trying to be clear about my past. I liked your Eleanor Roosevelt quote. Now there's a woman who didn't put up with any guff. BTW, I did a Google search and the quote is attributed to Franklin Roosevelt speaking about Pearl Harbor attack, Eleanor Roosevelt and also Friedrich Nietzsche. Whoever said it first, you've just said again. I think one thing that has made us stonger was gaining a more discriminating eye towards potential fraud.

Subject: I understand From: Jennifer To: Richard Date Posted: Fri, Mar 15, 2002 at 09:53:25 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Well, Richard if you learned a great capacity to love and you finely honed your craft, I have to agree that those are two good things that happened to you as a result of your involvement. That was a lot more specific and I think I have a better understanding of what you were trying to say originally. Thanks for taking the time to explain what you meant. Hey, I learned to love in a greater capacity by loving some people who didn't deserve it either.

Subject: Re: I understand From: Richard To: Jennifer Date Posted: Sat, Mar 16, 2002 at 01:59:02 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: True enough, Jennifer. At least we tried to save the world. Thanks for your reply.

Subject: Re: A neutral perspective From: bolly shri To: Richard Date Posted: Mon, Mar 11, 2002 at 05:59:19 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Well put it sounds about right if you chuck away the frame it doesn't mean the picture is no good so we cann posses as our own what was once regarded as the offal of ms grace Bolly shri

Subject: Re: A neutral perspective From: Jim To: Richard Date Posted: Sun, Mar 10, 2002 at 17:35:46 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Richard, I guess your friend's speculation might be worth considering if only 'spiritual growth' meant something. Does it? What? I used to think it not only meant something, it meant everything. Now it just sounds like an empty phrase. As for PTSD, I got my first real understanding of this phenomenon from the recent PBS series on the brain. Apparently, you need to have suffered the original trauma severely enough that the triggers can't help but bring back the whole flood of hormonal reaction. Now the interesting thing about us is that, on the one hand M traumatized us, particularly with his heavy satsang and the promise of a fate worse than death should we screw up. On the other hand, though, we had a whole flight mechanism into meditation we were trained to employ. So what might have been traumatic, wasn't necessarily, as we actually enjoyed Maharaji scaring our minds, sometimes, just so we'd have no choice but to 'bliss out'. What do you think?

Subject: I think K = tranquiliser addiction From: Loaf To: Jim Date Posted: Tues, Mar 12, 2002 at 10:07:12 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I think it was quite hard for me to face 'reality'... it still is (if such a thing exists.. i used to think it meant something..) after 20 years floating in a bubble of faith and emotional dislocation.. YES I found the trauma of adjusting to life outside the bubble, and the shock of re-assessing those 20 years and rubbing them against the hard edges, the trauma of being FORCED to face and deal with my own feelings as my entire frame of reference and identity crumbled ... such things are not easy

Subject: Oh no - the S word! From: Richard To: Jim Date Posted: Sun, Mar 10, 2002 at 18:15:49 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Did I really let the S word stay in his comments? What the hell was I thinking? I could have changed 'spiritual growth' to 'personal growth' but that probably would have set off alarms, too. Interesting point re: PTSD, Jim. I think that the meditation and the much praised bliss state anesthetized us from feeling anything at all except love for M. So it was hard to know we were being psychologicly abused because 'it was all so beautiful'. M's harrangues confirmed the beliefs he had instilled in us that we weren't worthy. I recall many of the hard core premies telling us how grateful we should be that M lowered himself to yell at us. I guess it would be similar to a masochist begging to be abused and thinking it was pleasurable because down deep they thought they were naughty and deserved it. You may accurate in saying that we escaped into meditation/bliss to both try to be a 'good premie' and also avoid the psychological torture by numbing out. Sounds logical but I can't say for sure as I'm not a psychotherapist. Hey, maybe we should get Jack Kornfield's opinion on this. :)

Subject: Re: Oh no - the S word! From: Jack Kornfield To: Richard Date Posted: Sun, Mar 10, 2002 at 20:02:05 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hello Richard, May I extend a very open and non-threatening namaste, to you? The greeting that extends from my heart to all sentient beings is nothing to shake stick at (aha! Quite a funny buddhist joke, don't you think? --oops, there's another one! Chuckle, chuckle, ahem, ah yes, where were we?). You would like to know what I think about bad gurus doing bad things and whether or not the effect lingers in a scientific fashion? Well, Richard, it's like this. Although I'm committed in this life and all others to refrain from passing judgment on any other sentient beings, I must honour your heart which sings, loudly and clearly, that your former guru was a bad guru. Assuming, of course, that that is your heart and not just the internal noise that buddha so succinctly called ghoppiviajannnadhasstamundanabehat, who am I to argue? In fact, I honour your right to argue with yourself, if you wish, but, as my own rishi used to say, vihanallador khandopal or, as I translated in my last book, 'Who's keeping score during the commercials?' In other words, you can do it, but can it do you? I embrace the work of our brothers and sisters in science. Science, you'll recall from my book Science? Why not? is only now coming to terms with deep, profound truths the Buddha expressed with shining brilliance. Buddha himself noted the conflict between the laddhacaldap and the novabijhannapad. His teachings in this respect inspired the doctrine of 'Good touching / Bad touching' which is now taught worldwide but, as any student of mine knows, much of the subtlety, or jannapijdjann, is sadly forgotten. Now don't get me wrong, I embrace the forgetfullness ... indeed, I, myself, have actually forgotten what it was I wanted to say .... Peace be with you, Richard. I mean you no harm, honest. Jack Kornfield ... a GOOD guru since 1982!

Subject: Thanks, Jack From: Richard To: Jack Kornfield Date Posted: Sun, Mar 10, 2002 at 20:54:02 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Some folks around here think you don't know Jack about conciousness but you ARE Jack. How cool is that? Thanks for taking time out from your busy schedule of diligently and selflessly focusing on ghoppiviajannnadhasstamundanabehat for all of suffering humanity to come here and set us straight. It never occurred to us before that Maharaji could have been a bad guru as you so expertly put it. Go figure, who woulda thunk it? By the way, have you seen Postie's Ten-Fold Path? I think Postie is as ethical as you are, Jack and you two should network on the astral plane sometime. A hearty Namaste to you, too. Richard, shamelessly calling attention to his old post Postie's Ten-Fold Path www.hotboards.com/plus/plus.mirage?who=gl&id=10646.36093794882

Subject: Oh, really? How nice, I'm sure From: Jack Kornfield To: Richard Date Posted: Sun, Mar 10, 2002 at 21:18:40 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Richard, I did indeed look at that Ten-Fold Path and found that I was abundantly please with myself as I did so. Indeed, it was the observer within me that caught it first, drawing my attention ever so gently to the fact that, yes, I, too, could laugh the laugh of the open-heart. That 'path' was so humourous and full of buddha-like mirth. May I remind you, though, that these jokes are nothing new. Indeed, they were all discussed at length and with great respect and wisdom at the second meeting, or assembly, of the Great Prajñâpâramitâ-sûtra, minutes of which were translated by Ven. Hsüan-tsang into Chinese during 660-663 C.E., Taishô Vol. 7. The matter arose again in Pañca-Gilgit: Raghu Vira, a commentary in which you'll recall Lokesh Chandra, and Edward Conze, editors of the Gilgit Buddhist Manuscripts, parts 3 (Facsimile edition), and Raghu Vira, editor of the Shata-Pitaka Series, volume 10 (3) (New Delhi: International Academy of Indian Culture, 1966-70). really went to town on it. If I may, the latter reported as follows: We have finished deciphering the Gilgit Manuscript of the Pañcavimshatisâhasrikâ Prajñâpâramitâ from folio 124b to 210b, which corresponds to the second to fourth Abhisamayas. Detailed footnoting, however, still needs to be done. We are exploring ways of promoting public access to our work on these ancient manuscripts. The first problem we have encountered is the diacritical marks. So, yes, Richard, if you're able to get past the diacritical marks and want to have a little fun, by all means, please do. Just remember, I have written a number of books. People trust me. I'm not saying that that's particularly relevant to this narrow issue but, don't forget, this is Jack Kornfield here. Be nice. Many of your 'folds' brought a buddha-like glee to my heart but my favorite, of course, was the proscription to put off until the day after tomorrow what you can do tomorrow, or something like that. The eternal void of nothingness knows that that's me to a tee. Mind you, it's you too, is it not? Is this not the source of all humour, the universality of things? I leave you with one last comment, Richard. -- see? Yet another Buddha-like joke! HO HO HO!!! Jack Kornfield A GOOD guru since sometime in the late seventies

Subject: Such wisdom, Jack From: Richard To: Jack Kornfield Date Posted: Sun, Mar 10, 2002 at 21:51:02 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Well, Jack I must say this with all equanimity and kindness for all the sentient beings you have ever been and ever will be, but you've really missed the boat, dude. And I say that with the utmost respect. It's not my Ten-Fold Path at all. It's Postie's Ten-Fold Path. Oh, I get it. That was a trick comment to see if my ego would swell up and take credit for Postie's brilliant thinking for which I am but a vessel, a conduit, a cosmic DSL line. You truly are a great teacher and I metaphoricly bow to your superior wisdom. After all, you've written whole books and I just fritter away my time posting to my imaginary cyber friends on this forum. That said, you may want to consider taking yourself a long walk and hug a live tree or something. I think you're getting just a wee bit hung up on this diacritical marks issue. Oh, never mind. --- See, I made a Buddha joke, too. OK, thanks for dropping in and we'll see you for Mu tea at the next Intergalactic Non-Threatening Persons of Wisdom Conference in Sedona. Or we could put it off indefinitely knowing everything is always happening right now anyway so why rush. Richard, in a bardo state of mind

Subject: Ba-Ba-Black Sheep !!! From: Ed To: All Date Posted: Sun, Mar 10, 2002 at 15:29:58 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Disclaimer: For entertainment purposes only. Molester Arrested mahatma.jagdeo.wasarrested.com/S-India/Outside+of+New+Delhi/sheep

Subject: Gotta love those spiritual leaders OT From: Jim To: All Date Posted: Sun, Mar 10, 2002 at 15:13:23 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Fron Newsweek: ANDREA YATES Examining a Spiritual Leader’s Influence Was Andrea Yates’s “spiritual leader” partly responsible for her delusional thinking? As testimony comes to a close in her trial, evangelist Michael Woroniecki’s influence over the mother accused of murdering her five children has become an issue. A day after Yates, who has pleaded not guilty by reason of insanity, drowned the children in the family bathtub, she told a jail psychiatrist that her bad mothering had made the kids “not righteous,” and, as a result, they would “perish in the fires of hell.” If she killed them while they were young, God would show mercy on their souls. Where did these thoughts stem from? Yates’s attorney, George Parnham, has put into evidence a copy of Woroniecki’s newsletter The Perilous Times, sent to Yates and her husband, Rusty. In it a poem laments the disobedient kids of the “Modern Mother Worldly” and ends with the question, “What becomes of the children of such a Jezebel?” Houston psychiatrist Lucy Puryear told the jury that literature is “what her delusions are built around.” In a letter to NEWSWEEK, Woroniecki, 48, denies negatively influencing Yates, and points at Rusty. “Knock, knock ... Hello ... earth to Rusty ... your wife and children are in desperate need of your love,” he writes. “I warned him over and over again that his life was headed for tragedy.” Rusty, who declined to comment, first met Woroniecki while he was a student at Auburn University. Woroniecki was preaching on campus. Rusty introduced the preacher to Andrea, and in 1998 the Yateses bought a Greyhound bus from Woroniecki, who had lived in it with his wife and their six children as they toured the nation. During a 1994 protest at Brigham Young University, Woroniecki called the school’s women “contemporary witches.” He told them sarcastically, “Go and be a 20th-century career woman and forget about your families.” One of his pamphlets proclaimed, “As man was created to dominate, God reveals that woman was created to be his helpmeet.” Though Andrea quit her job to stay home with the kids, Woroniecki says he never urged her to do this. “Although she was an excellent nurse, she never wanted to pursue a career,” he wrote NEWSWEEK. Rusty told the jury that he agreed with Woroniecki’s support for home-schooling and living the “simple life” in a bus—two decisions the Yateses copied but which Puryear says caused significant stress for the passive Andrea. Forensic psychiatrist Park Dietz agreed, and said these factors led to her two previous suicide attempts. “She couldn’t say to people, ‘I can’t stand this’.” For his part, Woroniecki writes that he and his wife were “a very compassionate and caring couple who did all we could to love them ... After all we did for this family, it is preposterous for us to be cast into such a terrible image.” — Anne Belli Gesalman

Subject: A Personal View on Recent Events From: JHB To: All Date Posted: Sun, Mar 10, 2002 at 02:08:30 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I’m a little concerned about recent trends in the online ex-premie and premie forums, and some thoughts occur to me. Firstly, I think there are different reasons why we post on these forums. For me and others, the motive is clear - we want to discuss the truth about Maharaji, and to counter misunderstandings or lies. The social element comes a distant second, although real life meetings with exes have been wonderful events. Others also have a very clear agenda, and that is to do everything possible to disrupt the process of discussing the truth about Maharaji. They are also one-pointed, and will utilise any opportunity to prevent serious and focused discussion of Maharaji. In particular, they want to make the on-line forums unpleasant places for wavering premies, and in this they are being reasonably successful. Then there are those ex-premies and premies in between, who post as a hobby, and have no clear purpose in being here other than to engage in interesting conversations. I think this middle group, especially the exes, are being deliberately and quite cleverly targeted by the second group to help achieve the disruption of the forums, and it’s sad to watch. We ex-premies are not a social group, and apart from our aim to share the truth about Maharaji, and our past lives as premies, we don’t have a great deal in common. There have been serious disagreements amongst us, that sadly have led to strong emotions. It’s impossible to easily resolve these, just as it’s difficult when the same things happen in normal human interactions. So while I cannot change anybody’s opinion of any other ex-premie here, I ask that you do not let others, with their own agenda, use you to discredit the aims of the ex-premie forum and the ex-premie websites. Just look at the glee with which Catweasel and others have jumped on the recent disagreements to further drive wedges between ex-premies. If you are an ex-premie and are interested in providing a place for wavering premies to read the truth about Maharaji, then be very clear that Catweasel and his kind are your enemies. Think carefully before helping him in his work. John.

Subject: I agree From: Jim To: JHB Date Posted: Mon, Mar 11, 2002 at 16:53:59 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Nothing is as absurd as seeing exes molly coddle premies who have demonstrated, time and again, that they are committed to shutting us down however they can. That's not just foolish but it's an insult to the rest of us, even to the extent of supporting these particular premies' bullshit but much stated argument that there are nice exes and mean ones, fair exes and unfair ones. Likewise, when an ex tells Catweasel, for instance, as one did yeserday on LG, that his big error (besides harrassing Aussie exes) has been retaliating in kind against abuse he's suffered here, I have to wonder what planet that person's on. Catweasal has been nothing but a flaming troll here from the moment he started. Period. Simliarly, when an ex says, as that same one did yesterday, that there is 'spin on both sides', I can only scratch my head. That, too, is extraordinarily false and an insult to all of us. I'd like to see her back that one up, belive me. Then there's the complaint that 'alternative views' aren't tolerated here. It's a discussion board, isn't it? Maybe the best thing in the world is for the proponents of those alternative ideas to fight, fight, fight for them until there's no fight left. Maybe only then can the relative strength of one viewpoint really prove out against another. But it's a bullshit, weenie, I'm even willing to throw in 'passive aggressive' unless someone stops me, excuse to blame others for sticking to their guns in debate. Could it be, perhaps, that the proponents of 'alternative viewpoints' just don't have as strong and cohesive positions for believing what they do? Anyway, at the end of the day, when I see an ex-premie cozy up with a current cult member just to grandstand or try to show up another ex as being not as 'nice', I have to laugh. It's transparent, pathetic and ultimately self-defeating. Some of us are 'people pleasers' and really, really, really want everyone to like us. But this is a hot zone, this playing field wherein former cult members come out to knock down their former cult leader's pinata and current cult members try to stop them. Yes, in some ways, it is most definitely a team sport and yes, there are times when people should look in the mirror to see what colour they're wearing. No, that doesn't make the ex-premies a 'cult' as some people have alleged, as stupid as that sounds. It just means that there are broad scale common agendas here and that shared by the exes is a hell of a lot different than the premies'.

Subject: You're right, but... From: JHB To: Jim Date Posted: Mon, Mar 11, 2002 at 17:41:03 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ... you could try to stick to pursuasive, rational argument when confronting such behaviour in ex-premies, instead of the vitriolic attacks bringing up old wounds, couldn't you?:) John who clearly understands he has enemies - thanks, Jim.

Subject: Yes, John, absolutely :) [nt] From: Jim To: JHB Date Posted: Mon, Mar 11, 2002 at 19:10:58 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: I'll post whatever I damn well please From: Tonette To: JHB Date Posted: Mon, Mar 11, 2002 at 11:29:43 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: And if I go over the line then block me. Catweasel and the likes of premie trolls, sure they disrupt threads but, they are so good at showing the true colors of Maharaji and everything that Knowledge was and has become. The likes of R2 and a few most recent trolls makes CW look sane. Let them post away. Everyone knows after reading just the most rudimentary of threads that this sucker, the troll, the premie is one sick cookie. They damn themselves. Besides the trolling has been somewhat subdued compared to what it once was. Tonette

Subject: I think you may misunderstand From: JHB To: Tonette Date Posted: Mon, Mar 11, 2002 at 14:05:19 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Firstly, I can't block anyone from anywhere - I'm just another poster here (OK I have the password for archiving, but I would only use it for any other purpoase in dire emergencies). Secondly, I never tried to tell anyone who they should talk to or what they should say, and there's nothing in my post that as far as I can see that even implies that. I said be aware, that, in my opinion, there are premies with a clear agenda of disrupting the discussion of the truth about Maharaji, and they will use ex-premies where they can to achieve this. Let us not be used. John.

Subject: What's my agenda, categorize me, your take From: Tonette To: JHB Date Posted: Tues, Mar 12, 2002 at 11:18:44 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Is this a hobby to me? Maybe, kinda, mostly it's fun and almost always interesting. Do I read here and post everyday? No. Is this a social group for me? Nope, have yet to meet an ex or a premie who posts here in real life. Do I have strong emotions? I'm a woman for pete's sake, what? You want me to change my DNA? I don't read other ex-premie nor other premie forums. What you say is probably true. I have looked at LG on three occassions. The dialogue in the forum was so convoluted only a person under the influence of a cult would be able to understand it. And the participants from what I could discrern, Mili, Carlos, Isabella, to name a few, shunned away from any posts that required more than three sentances for a reply. So, yes, I misunderstood the jist of your thread. I know some premies who post here do have an agenda. Catweasel has been doing it since he got his ISP. And new people who are discovering this forum and other forums should be well aware of the agenda under which the likes of Catweasel and those like him operate. The posts either disrupt, insult, hurt, highjack and never give their real identity. Your point is well taken. Do you think I will consider this fact when one of them steps in here and pisses me off? Will I post differently to them in order to maintain a favorable image of ex's or this forum? Nope. Like I said, I'll post anything I damn well please. May I ask you to tell me what you think are the recent trends on this forum and others? And I know you cannot block me. I think only Pat and Gerry can. I am not being hostile to you. I really hate this venue of communication. I just read thru what I wrote. Please don't take it that way. Stay warm, CW hasn't mailed me my Amaroo tickets yet, Did you get yours? Tonette

Subject: Re: I think you may misunderstand From: PatC To: JHB Date Posted: Mon, Mar 11, 2002 at 16:20:30 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You said: ''I never tried to tell anyone who they should talk to or what they should say.'' That is certainly what some people have accused me of doing and the fact is that I can't deny it. I am loud, arrogant and opinionated BUT I don't expect people to think that what I say is some sort of official pronouncement of forum policy. It's just my opinion. It's simply politics. That means I say what I think and you refute it just as vigorously. Just because I'm an assistant FA does not mean that I will stop voicing my opinions. The only control anyone can exert on the forums is through the influence of reasoning and accumulated credibilty. I didn't agree with someone's idea of publicity and said so. So argue with me about it but if I think I'm right I won't back down. I don't like certain people and say so. All of a sudden I'm a nasty person because I haven't joined the Friends of Catweasel Coven. As Tonette said: she will post anything she wants. Me too. And I'll take the consequences. However I'm not here primarily to socialize (that's fun but not my main agenda) but to share my ongoing journey out of the cult with others. I've benefitted from other exes' writing and some have enjoyed mine. I also have a debt. EPO and certain old-time exes helped free me from the cult. I know that I owe you guys something. EPO and the forums have pretty much ended Rawat's career in the west. I hope I've contributed a little to that. I'm not out for revenge but to help inform those in the cult whom I know to be decent people and the best way I know how to do that is to not jeopardise the credibilty of EPO and its respected pioneers. That's why I will criticise silly schemes to harm Rawat and premies or the equally silly game of being friendly with anonymous cult apologists. Nor do I like to see some people bringing their unfocussed rage to the task at hand. We have enough to be angry about at Rawat without then blaming him for every bit of unresolved existential angst and psychological problems that we have. But that is only my loud, arrogant opinion and I don't expect anyone to agree with me.

Subject: My personal view on group mindthink From: Jennifer To: JHB Date Posted: Sun, Mar 10, 2002 at 09:03:20 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: John, In my opinion, one of the most important things that premies can see about ex-premies (and ex-aspirants) is that we are individuals. We have differing opinions, we are social creatures, we have lives outside the cult that aren't always wrapped up in thinking about the cult, trying to bring down the cult, etc. While I think it's important that people see the truth about Maharaji (and that more people don't join his band of merry men), I'm not EVER going to let that or any other purpose stop me from thinking about things for myself or from forming my own opinions about people. I'll talk to whomever I please and I will say what I want. I have no interest in any type of 'group mind think'--not even for the sake of ex-premiedom. Group mind think is very thing that will discredit the forums. Enjoy the rest of your weekend, Jennifer

Subject: This old internet technology From: Sir Dave To: JHB Date Posted: Sun, Mar 10, 2002 at 07:51:10 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Much of the ''exing'' is going on offline. I would even be so bold as to say that most of it was. The people who read and post here are but a tiny fraction of the whole of premiedom, whether ex or pro. A friend of mine who is a premie, got a print-out of a certain old ex-premie site (not ex-premie.org) which has been passed around many of the premies in his area (and it's a big area - a whole country of leeks). The pen is mightier than the sword and the people who come here to try to disrupt things are just pissing in the wind, as they say. The old ways still work; paper and printers and postage stamps. I see no trolls there - just a clapped out postal service but things still get through, especially by registered post. And that incredible device of the modern age, the electric voice telephone system, still works too!

Subject: Good points, Dave! [nt] From: JHB To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Sun, Mar 10, 2002 at 08:00:20 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Yarvo Mine Fuhrer! From: ()) SPIN()) To: JHB Date Posted: Sun, Mar 10, 2002 at 03:13:28 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Nah ,youv'e got it wrong.A coupla nasty pricks keep dissing everyone bar their gang.So people leave and enjoy a different experience. Yep Lifes Great!

Subject: It's ''Jawohl'', mein pussy From: PatC To: ()) SPIN()) Date Posted: Sun, Mar 10, 2002 at 03:17:03 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: St John of Latvia was just giving us his Sunday sermon a day early but that doesn't mean he isn't right.

Subject: Hey, it's Sunday here! From: JHB To: PatC Date Posted: Sun, Mar 10, 2002 at 05:26:02 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: And in Australia:-)

Subject: Oh ,Thanks Pat, I haven't attended a rally since From: Catweasel To: PatC Date Posted: Sun, Mar 10, 2002 at 03:51:03 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Nuremberg(Oh Oh wrong spelling!) It means he is allscrewed up with conspiracy theories!:)

Subject: Cat, will you do one thing for me? From: cq To: Catweasel Date Posted: Sun, Mar 10, 2002 at 10:56:15 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: either shit or leave the pot. www.dur.ac.uk/c.q.giles/toilettrainedcat.jpg

Subject: Maharaji May 8th, 1978 From: Opie To: All Date Posted: Sat, Mar 09, 2002 at 18:27:50 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Words extracted from Maharaji's Satsang by telephone, Malibu, May 8, 1978. Printed in 'Divine Times' Volume 7, Number 4, June/July 1978 'Guru Puja Special'. These comprehensive extracts neatly encapsulate the method of how Maharaji draws his audience in with simple timeless questions and then, without a blink, moves on to claim his divinity and how he provides the solutions to all these questions - even claims that he is the solution. How he manages to intertwine ourselves with him. Truly remarkable mindf**k games. It is easy to understand why instructions were given for all this stuff to be destroyed. Don't miss the bits about Maharaji's definitions of sin and suicide! Incredible! Anyway read on - if you dare. This is from the man's own mouth. .... The most important thing is, what do we get from it? What is the point? What do we actually gain from satsang, service and meditation? Where does that lead us? Where does that take us? .... And yet I remember when we were on vacation recently. We were just on the beach. And for Hansi we would make the tunnels and castle and everything. And I was just playing in the sand. I just took a fistful of sand ... I took it and dropped it back on the beach and I said - 'I just changed the whole universe; the whole structure of the universe. Universe is not going to be the same again.' And Marolyn was right next to me and she said, 'Oh yeah, but that's always happening.' .... And yet, just as that one grain of sand has the capacity, just as that one grain of sand has the capability of changing the structure of the entire universe, we have some significance, too. There is significance attached to us, too, as to why are we in this Earth. Why we are in this world? Why are we here? Why are we present? Why are we breathing? .... The way it is, it really doesn't matter. If you change a speck of sand or something like that, it just doesn't matter, because there is such an enormous universe that by changing one grain of sand, it just wouldn't affect it. And yet, premies, why are we here? .... And, I mean, why do we get a pleasure, why do we get so much bliss, why do we get a certain incredible feeling inside of us when we fulfil that purpose? And the reason, the sole reason behind it is because that's what our aim is. That is coming home. That is what we really desire. That's what we really want. And that's what's getting fulfilled. And when that fulfilment happens in our lives, everything gets fulfilled, everything gets quenched. All the thirst gets quenched. ... Because it's two things, and there is no other broker that can come in the middle. There's you and there is that Knowledge. There's you and there is that perfection. There are all these scriptures and there are all these things and that's just incredible, that's just great, that's all fantastic. But when it comes down to that search, when it comes down to that Peace, it's you and that Truth, it's you and that Knowledge. And we have to come to the right source, and we have to realize the right source, and fiddle for the rest of our lives trying to find out what the right source really is, going from book to book. ... And Knowledge is the same way. the experience that we want is the same way. Because as soon as that experience manifests in our life, we know. And of course, we're constantly backed up by mind, battled by mind. The mind keeps saying, 'No, this is not it. This is not it. This is not it. This is not it.' That, of course, doesn't change the fact. And only our commitment, only our dedication to what we really want, is through Guru Maharaj Ji, is through that Master ... Because, he has that key! He doesn't even have the key; let's put in this way: He has the solution. He has what we want. Because in him lies the solution. He is the solution. ... Our body is finite. Something within this body is infinite. And if we join those two things, if we make that one connection ... Because that we are trying to reach, what we are trying get to, is that most spectacular experience. And that experience is always there because it's infinite! And we can always achieve it. We can always be there, by going to Guru Maharaj Ji, by going to the Perfect Master. Because Perfect Master not only teaches us perfectness - and that is why he is Perfect Master- but he has the key. And not only does he have the key, but that answer, that solution, that experience, lies within him. Because he is that experience. And by approaching that Master, then he unfolds, he unites yourself, that individual, that one jiva, that one soul, to himself, and thus bridges the most, most incredible barrier, crossing the most wide, most outrageous, most violent stream of all between us, crossing all factors of time, life, death, anything that's finite - crossing all factors - and bringing us into perfect harmony and perfect unity. ... Because when in the presence of Guru Maharaj Ji, when in that beautiful, beautiful presence of Guru Maharaj Ji ... Because there is the solution. There is the answer. And we get attracted by that. We get directed by that, It's like a magnet. And again, it's a very beautiful experience in our life hat we have been granted, again, by Guru Maharaj Ji's Grace, that we have been granted that experience of him! ... And it's just like, what's our true nature? So I mean, of course it's on a very basic level, the whole example. But it's quite obvious that only by Knowledge - and then, not even that - only by Guru Maharaji Ji's Grace, can we really understand who we really are, can we really have our true identity, can we really experience ourself, can we go beyond the barriers of good and bad, can we go beyond the barriers of right and wrong, can we go beyond the barrier of all time, and cross all the finite and merge with what's infinite. And that's only possible by Guru Maharaj Ji's Grace. It's just like our love for our Guru Maharaj Ji can never, can never, cease to exist. If there is a definition ....Okay, this is a little harsh way to put it. But I'll put it: If there is a definition of sin - if there is one - then it definitely applies to the place of ever leaving that Love, of ever forgetting that Love, of Guru Maharaj Ji. Because without Guru Maharaj Ji - the saints have said, there was this whole world and there was everything, but nothing was there. And is they would have lived in that fantasy of 'Oh everything is there: everything is okay,' they would have never understood that they're not living in anything, that all the factors are so small, all the factors are so ridiculous. And when Guru Maharaj Ji comes, and really shows then that Love, shows then true Love, shows them themselves .... Because, who are we before Guru Maharaj Ji? What are we until we have understood who we really are? And so if we haven't understood who we really are, and that there is no definition that applies, when we understand who we are, then we go beyond all understanding. Then we merge with that. Being that makes us who we are, that gives us that feeling, that gives us that feeling f understanding, that gives us that experience of Love, that gives us that experience of Knowledge, that gives us the experience of happiness. And just how much can we love Guru Maharaj Ji? How much can we dedicate to Guru Maharaj Ji? How much can we become with Guru Maharaj Ji? I don't think ever anybody who has realized Guru Maharaj Ji, who has ever put a limit on it. Because to do that would be another sin. Because it's an ever-flowing experience. You never want to stop. You just want to keep on going with it. And by Guru Maharaj Ji's Grace, every second, every moment, every inch of the way, things keep manifesting and manifesting and manifesting. And when we let go to that Guru Maharaj Ji, when we let go and surrender ourselves ... Because who are we? Before that we were nothing. After that we are nothing. But we become one when we accomplish the purpose of why we are really here in this world. ... And if we forget who we really are, if we let go of Guru Maharaj Ji and really forget who we really are in the true sense of the word, then that's almost like committing suicide, that's almost like dying. And Guru Maaraj Ji's compassion is there. Guru Maharaj Ji's mercy is there for us, to take forever and ever and ever. And that's where we have to be. Because that's where the experience is. What I talk about is not a theory. It's not some homemade theory of mine. But this is the true experience. When we experience it, all concepts go away. .... phew! And I use to believe all this shit?! Op

Subject: M's Lies/1978 From: Joe To: Opie Date Posted: Mon, Mar 11, 2002 at 16:31:12 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I think documenting all of the many threats Maharaji spewed at us over many years, about the calamities that would happen if you stopped practicing knowledge, and stopped devoting to him, are extremely important, because they reveal what a big lie Maharaji is putting out these days about "if you don't like it, then leave it, etc." Also, I can actually remember listening to that very satsang via 'phone feed' in the Chicago ashram in 1978. The thing I distinctly remember is Maharaji telling us about Marolyn saying that the universe was always changing. 1978 was in the midst of the dark, devotional period, hence the heavy 'surrender or die' stuff. It actually got WORSE for about 5 years after that. Do any of you remember Maharaji saying that anybody who made it through 1978 would be with him forever? Remember that? Remember the 1978 Festivals? Holi Festival in Miami in about Aprril, Guru Puja in Tucson in June or July, and the first big Hans Jayanti Festival in the Kissimee swamp in November.

Subject: Re: M's Lies/1978 From: JHB To: Joe Date Posted: Mon, Mar 11, 2002 at 18:06:45 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Joe, I have all the tapes from the second Kissimmee festival, but they're in England. I reckon we can put together a collage of threats from Maharaji that would scare the most committed ex-premie back to his arti tray for a second or two. I just have to arrange access to the tapes. EV monitors, the tapes are at the Latvian Club in London. John.

Subject: Re: Maharaji May 8th, 1978 From: Jennifer To: Opie Date Posted: Mon, Mar 11, 2002 at 10:26:14 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'And if we forget who we really are, if we let go of Guru Maharaj Ji and really forget who we really are in the true sense of the word, then that's almost like committing suicide, that's almost like dying.' This really makes me sick, people.

Subject: EV's archives just updated From: Jean-Michel To: Opie Date Posted: Mon, Mar 11, 2002 at 04:38:29 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks for the document. I still have huge piles of documents to process ...... and F7 'best of' section to update ! M's may 8th satsang by telephone www.ex-premie.org/papers/may8th1978.htm

Subject: This is just great! JM? From: Jim To: Opie Date Posted: Sun, Mar 10, 2002 at 14:31:01 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: How in the world can premies and Maharaji keep a straight face when they say that Maharaji never laid a guilt trip on people for even thinking of walking? I mean, this here: If there is a definition of sin - if there is one - then it definitely applies to the place of ever leaving that Love, of ever forgetting that Love, of Guru Maharaj Ji. says it all. Good work, Opie!

Subject: Re: This is just great! JM? From: Opie To: Jim Date Posted: Sun, Mar 10, 2002 at 15:18:55 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yes Jim, yes says it all. Kept us spellbound for a good part of a century. Talk about 'rotting vegetables' - this one, this one about sin, really takes the cake! Oh how I was so blind! Come on Premies - wake up! Don't you see how destructive Maharajism is? Life really is great once you throw off the shackles that bind you, the shackles that are an illusion. You owe it to yourselves ......... Unbind yourselves. from my heart with love Opie

Subject: Highlights that mark him out for me ... From: cq To: Opie Date Posted: Sun, Mar 10, 2002 at 11:08:34 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'And, I mean, why do we get a pleasure, why do we get so much bliss, why do we get a certain incredible feeling inside of us when we fulfil that purpose? And the reason, the sole reason behind it is because that's what our aim is. That is coming home. That is what we really desire. That's what we really want. And that's what's getting fulfilled. And when that fulfilment happens in our lives, everything gets fulfilled, everything gets quenched. All the thirst gets quenched. ... Because it's two things, and there is no other broker that can come in the middle. There's you and there is that Knowledge. There's you and there is that perfection. ... what we are trying get to, is that most spectacular experience. And that experience is always there because it's infinite! And we can always achieve it. We can always be there, by going to Guru Maharaj Ji, by going to the Perfect Master. Because Perfect Master not only teaches us perfectness - and that is why he is Perfect Master- but he has the key. And not only does he have the key, but that answer, that solution, that experience, lies within him. Because he is that experience. ... It's just like our love for our Guru Maharaj Ji can never, can never, cease to exist. ... If there is a definition of sin - if there is one - then it definitely applies to the place of ever leaving that Love, of ever forgetting that Love, of Guru Maharaj Ji. ' And this is from the selfsame guy who claims he never said he was God???? Well, which is it to be? He was lying then, or he's lying now?

Subject: Re: Maharaji May 8th, 1978 From: omie To: Opie Date Posted: Sun, Mar 10, 2002 at 03:22:59 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: great stuff there..we want mo'.....

Subject: Re: Maharaji May 8th, 1978 From: PatD To: Opie Date Posted: Sat, Mar 09, 2002 at 20:47:00 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks Opie,one forgets. That seems coherent to me in comparison with later words of wisdom. He was 20 then,on a roll with his mixture of Primary School Catholic ideas(he went to one,remember),his old man's 'secret knowledge',& his own upbringing as God incarnate. So why did he bottle out later on....deny all that.It can only be that he didn't have what it takes to be the founder of a religion,get crucified with tax(sorry,old pun),stand up for de troof in the face of the world,usher in the Satyuga. I don't know about you,but what locked me into a suspension of rationality was the trick of the meditation. A couple of yrs after I got k I met an elderly man who'd been a regular soldier(Durham Light Infantry)in India in the 30's. He laughed like a drain on receiving 'satsang',& told loads of stories about how you could stick a knife into yourself & get away with it....a miracle. Tape a cockroach to an infant's forehead...you've got a defective to whom the pious will give alms...stuff like that. Fool that I was I didn't get his point. I can't remember your name old man,but you were right & I was wrong.

Subject: By His Grace From: Pullaver To: Opie Date Posted: Sat, Mar 09, 2002 at 19:17:39 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks OP. Yeah you read that and then imagine Maharaji swerving down the street in a drunken rage with Marolyn and the kids in the back.

Subject: Bob Mishler recordings From: JHB To: All Date Posted: Sat, Mar 09, 2002 at 18:13:09 (EST) Email Address: epowebmaster@yahoo.co.uk Message: I have today received recordings of the end of the radio interview with Bob Mishler that is missing from the EPO record, and a phone call from two recently deprogrammed premies to Mishler. In the latter, he expands on his time with Maharaji while he was President of DLM. I would like to make contact with the ex-premies who made the tape, to get permission to publish a transcript. If I am unable to do so, then I will publish (as no personal details of the ex-premies are mentioned). The thing that struck me listening to the tape is how clear Mishler was in his understanding at that time. I compared it with how shallow my own thinking was at the time. He said he felt it was his duty to speak out about what he knew, as his silence would mean complicity with Maharaji's ongoing deception. It was well before the age of the internet, and so he used the radio, and was very accomodating to the ex-premies who phoned him. He said he had presented a proposal for a book to several publishers, but only received rejection notices. I'll transcribe the tape in due course, but if anyone wants a copy, let me know. John.

Subject: Re: Bob Mishler recordings From: bill To: JHB Date Posted: Sun, Mar 10, 2002 at 08:43:31 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: any clue as to the location of any Mishler relatives? They may have as much of the book as was completed.

Subject: the cheque's in the post From: cq To: bill Date Posted: Sun, Mar 10, 2002 at 11:12:32 (EST) Email Address: quartus@postmaster.co.uk Message: ... has been for several days (honest!) Yes, I'd like a copy (and will be happy to distribute to other UK exes). Ciaio 4 now

Subject: Talk about luck! From: Jim To: All Date Posted: Sat, Mar 09, 2002 at 15:19:56 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: We're very lucky people we are aren`t we very lucky people, very very lucky people. Yesterday evening I left my home and went to visit an old and very dear friend, I told him M. may come to Europe, told him about Amaroo.....how I want to go there for the first time, told him about Miami and M. singing. Told him really all the wonders of a life full of magic. I even told him about the bee waggling its derrierè to tell the other bees were the honey is. Luck? No, Grace, yes, privilege, yes, but luck......? there was a broadcast in Europe yesterday evening ....Taiwan....it`s also on video..the number is 1307, well in Austria it is, M. speaking in Kaohsiung on May 2nd 2001. I can`t quote M on this literally but he said something like, 'It wasn`t luck that made me come to Knowledge, it was the day I listened to my heart........' something like that.....I feel I`m a lucky person, I find things, people give me presents of food because I look so hungry, but if it was my heart which brought me to knowledge then why am I buying lottery tickets for the fare to Amaroo? David David Coleman Vienna, Austria

Subject: Re: Talk about luck! From: Livia To: Jim Date Posted: Sat, Mar 09, 2002 at 15:30:10 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: He's buying lottery tickets for his fare to Amaroo because he hasn't got enough faith in Maharaji's luck. Oh dear.

Subject: Is this part a joke, do you think? From: Jim To: Livia Date Posted: Sat, Mar 09, 2002 at 15:48:10 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I feel I`m a lucky person, I find things, people give me presents of food because I look so hungry I just picture some homeless guy scavenging for food and thanking his guru for making his life so wonderful.

Subject: Re: Talk about luck! From: cq To: Livia Date Posted: Sat, Mar 09, 2002 at 15:40:42 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: and also because he hasn't realised that the ones who run the Lottery make money out of him. Just like ... (PPSR?)

Subject: soul v humanity From: Livia To: All Date Posted: Sat, Mar 09, 2002 at 15:18:41 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: On a thread below, R2 said this: 'From what I’ve seen there is one fundamental difference between ex-premies and premies that may be what drives one to their respective camps. Ex-premies put a priority on saving humanity, whereas premies’ priority is saving their own soul. The upshot of that is, ex-premies look for leadership that addresses the needs of humanity, and premies look for a leader who addresses the need of their soul. Simple difference but could explain a lot.' I thought this was so telling. I wonder why he thinks the needs of the soul and the needs of humanity should be somehow mutually exclusive? I think herein lies the rub. Somehow, in one's progress through the years as a premie, the needs of humanity subtly seem to recede into the distance. When I first received Knowledge in 1972, a huge part of it for me was Maharaji's apparently sincere desire to bring the whole world to peace via Knowledge. Maharaji himself spoke often of wanting to bring peace to the world. How did we come from that to a place where a premie can say what R2 said above, and not think that something has gone wrong somewhere? I'm beginning to think that Maharaji's current emphasis actually numbs premies to the significance of the needs of anyone but themselves. R2 calls it the soul, but is it really? Or is it a narcissistic need to feel safe, loved (by an imaginary friend) and spiritually superior? To be honest, the thought that anyone can think the needs of their own soul take precedence over the needs of humanity makes me feel quite queasy. Just how far from reality have premies actually come? With love, Livia If you are there, R2, can you please explain?

Subject: Yes, absolutely From: Jim To: Livia Date Posted: Sun, Mar 10, 2002 at 14:50:32 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Livia, I think that when the cult was in its expansive years, premies did indeed feel some sort of beatific, utopian magnaminity for all sentient beings. But that was years ago and now M and his cult are in a very, very defensive position. They can't afford to reach out too much because there are too many things -- like facts -- that bite in the night. Indeed, it must be difficult for some premies who still believe the secret of happiness lies in listening to your breath and praying to the living perfect master. I bet they'd like to be able to reach out but they can't. Conveniently, of course, Maharaji's shaped their priorities so it all kind of fits together. I mean, look at that quote from '78 Opie found: If there is a definition of sin - if there is one - then it definitely applies to the place of ever leaving that Love, of ever forgetting that Love, of Guru Maharaj Ji. We used to really go after wavering and even exitted premies because the stakes -- life in hell, anyone? -- were so high. Now, though, the cult can't afford to risk honest interaction. I'm sure that the moment someone even hints at leaving, the cult goes into defensive mode and doesn't want to hear from the guy. Now, Maharaji's just as happy to say 'bye, no muss, no fuss, good riddance, kind of thing. In that climate of paranoia and avoidance, there isn't a whole lot of room for heartfelt outreach.

Subject: Re: soul v humanity From: cq To: Livia Date Posted: Sun, Mar 10, 2002 at 11:45:15 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: R2 might claim that 'premies look for a leader who addresses the need of their soul', and claim that ex-premies put a priority on saving humanity, but he distorts the facts: Fact #1 - M claimed (on his website) that he 'never wanted to be leader, and never was one'. This is an obvious lie, witnessed by: Fact #2 - he said this: 'I swear on the Bible that I will establish peace in the world'. Which makes R2's observations obvious for what they are, namely evident revisionism. Click here for what M said before his attempts at revisionism set in www.ex-premie.org/papers/claims.htm www.ex-premie.org/papers/swear3.jpg

Subject: Re: soul v humanity From: PatC To: Livia Date Posted: Sun, Mar 10, 2002 at 03:14:09 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: On a practical level this translates into PWKs who cannot propagate K because they are so closed off to other people. I said that at several local meetings and basically caused shudders. If the revisionism hasn't crept up on you slowly but you've taken a break from premiedom, as I did, and then return, it is so obvious that the openness, frankness of the early days is gone. For those current PWKs who have any sort of self-respect it seems like they are carrying some bitter-sweet secret. The other kind - the ones who are only in it for themselves and You Know Who - laugh and joke and give people the creeps with their smugness and fake braggadoccio.

Subject: Good observation, Livia From: Richard To: Livia Date Posted: Sat, Mar 09, 2002 at 19:24:12 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: When I first read R2's comment that ex's are/were into saving humanity and premies were into saving their soul, I agreed that I am/was into trying to do what's best for humanity. Saving the world one person at a time was the huge hook for myself and others. Peace on Earth Begins Within You was the slogan we put on posters then. Donner comments eloquently on this point in Ulf's Old Dreams thread below. Your take on R2's comment is astute indeed. It is precisely the top-down narcissism at the heart of M&Kism that numbs the premie to others' needs and even his/her own needs. Good point Livia. An example: I recall being at Long Beach during my born-again PWK days and actually avoided interacting with a certain old friend because I didn't want them to taint 'my precious experience'. Later I hated what I'd done. I called him last week and expressed my friendship and love. Man, did that feel good and right. Richard, saving my soul and humanity one friend at a time

Subject: Re: soul v humanity From: Lesley To: Livia Date Posted: Sat, Mar 09, 2002 at 16:25:10 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: My guess is that what R2 means, when he talks about saving his own soul, is saving himself from the heartbreak of acknowledging the facts, ie that Maharaji is a stage show put on by Mr Rawat who doesn't really care about R2 at all. Or perhaps he's a more ol fashioned kinda guy, and believes that he will go to hell for all eternity if he leaves the lotus feet. Whatever, perhaps it would do him good to remember that one thing he certainly is, is a member of humanity.

Subject: Re: soul v humanity From: R2 To: Lesley Date Posted: Mon, Mar 11, 2002 at 21:14:21 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It’s really quite simple. God, assuming you believe in such a being, clearly doesn’t need me, or you to save humanity. I mean, if there is someone powerful enough to give me life, then he is powerful enough to save humanity should he so choose. I therefore do not see my role on earth as one of saving humanity. I do see my life as a gift that was given to me and no one else. No part of it was given to this thing called 'humanity'. So my first obligation is to discover and appreciate the value of this gift. And as luck would have it, when I do feel appreciation for this gift, it’s amazing how much I feel for the rest of humanity. Does that translate into feeding the hungry, or fighting the Taliban? Well, in my case, no. But that’s not to rule anything out when you feel genuine compassion. Krishna said, “Go ahead and fight, they are already dead”, when Arjun was feeling compassion for his enemies. Jesus said, “Let the dead bury the dead”, when talking about the dying. Jesus also said, “You will always have the poor but you will only have me for a little while”. Goes against the grain of humanistic logic doesn’t it? But there it is. But on the other hand, in Buddhism there is the concept of Bodhisatva. A Bodhisatva is a person who, having taken it upon themselves to become enlightened, in turn help other beings on the path towards enlightenment. So what does all this say with respect to priority? Well, I think it says the greatest good is to know truth, self, or whatever you want to call it. All the “humanitarian” endeavors come second. So here’s the nub of how this point impacts this discussion. In the politically correct milieu of the day, humanism is believed to be of a higher importance in the absolute scheme of things than knowing the self, God, whatever. As a matter of fact holding as the highest virtue the Knowledge of Self is entirely adverse to current popular opinion. Philosophically speaking therefore, ex-premies are people who were once premies, who now align themselves with the current popular milieu, and from that fuel their opposition to Maharaji.

Subject: Re: soul v humanity From: Livia To: R2 Date Posted: Tues, Mar 12, 2002 at 15:43:52 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: An interesting concept, Richard, but that's what it is, a concept. And I'm afraid you got it straight from the horse's mouth, not from your own heart, whatever you say. I know this, because it's exactly what all the premies say. I would have said exactly the same thing myself some years ago. 'Fraid it's flawed, though. I think we can safely assume that as you mention Jesus and Krishna, you assume Maharaji to be of the same ilk. Please don't deny it with some spin, because it's you who brought up the names of Jesus and Krishna in a discussion about Maharaji and Knowledge. One thing worries me, though. If Knowledge really is the Knowledge of God, where are the divine values in the lives of premies? Where is the selfless love? Where is the integrity? Where is the kindness? Because if those qualities are generally absent from the lives of premies, and from what I've seen, especially lately, they are most certainly generally absent, then what exactly is the point of this Knowledge of the Self? Really? With regards, Livia

Subject: Re: soul v humanity From: R2 To: Livia Date Posted: Wed, Mar 13, 2002 at 01:14:56 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: An interesting concept, Richard, but that's what it is, a concept. And I'm afraid you got it straight from the horse's mouth, not from your own heart, whatever you say. I know this, because it's exactly what all the premies say. I would have said exactly the same thing myself some years ago. Of course it’s a concept Livia. That’s about all we can share in this medium. Tell me you do any better! I’ll be first to say that as a premie my thinking has been influenced by Maharaji. Does that justify outright rejecting an idea because of that? If you do that, you are as bad as someone who accepts it for the same reason. Any idea -- his, mine, or yours -- should hold up on its own merit. 'Fraid it's flawed, though. I think we can safely assume that as you mention Jesus and Krishna, you assume Maharaji to be of the same ilk. Please don't deny it with some spin, because it's you who brought up the names of Jesus and Krishna in a discussion about Maharaji and Knowledge. Of course I believe he’s of the same ilk. Same timeless thirst to know, and a Knowledge that satisfies that thirst. Pretty powerful stuff. One thing worries me, though. If Knowledge really is the Knowledge of God, where are the divine values in the lives of premies? Where is the selfless love? Where is the integrity? Where is the kindness? Because if those qualities are generally absent from the lives of premies, and from what I've seen, especially lately, they are most certainly generally absent, then what exactly is the point of this Knowledge of the Self? Really? This always gets me. Typical complaints about premies’ lack of meeting some conceptual expectation of what someone who has experienced Knowledge should be like. Of course I cannot comment on you’ve seen lately. I suspect to some degree that during this time you are seeing negative because you are looking for negative. Another explanation is you may have just surrounded yourself with a real bunch of losers. For me all I know is what I see, and the extent of that is only what I see within myself. And what I see is a well of love and kindness that has been nurtured by turning within and practicing K. The point therefore is no more than for me to drink from that well, and thereby grow the only real wealth I‘ll ever have. Apart from that, if I get to witness selflessness and kindness manifesting in this day and age, I consider myself lucky.

Subject: this thing called Humanity From: Lesley To: R2 Date Posted: Tues, Mar 12, 2002 at 03:04:42 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You said: It’s really quite simple. God, assuming you believe in such a being, clearly doesn’t need me, or you to save humanity. I mean, if there is someone powerful enough to give me life, then he is powerful enough to save humanity should he so choose. I therefore do not see my role on earth as one of saving humanity. I do see my life as a gift that was given to me and no one else. No part of it was given to this thing called 'humanity'. So my first obligation is to discover and appreciate the value of this gift. And as luck would have it, when I do feel appreciation for this gift, it’s amazing how much I feel for the rest of humanity. Does that translate into feeding the hungry, or fighting the Taliban? Well, in my case, no. But that’s not to rule anything out when you feel genuine compassion. Me: Well, no I don't believe in God. I put him in the same basket as Santa Claus, I believed in his existence at one time, basically because I was told he existed, now I have come to the conclusion that it is yet another, er, story. This 'thing' called humanity??? Humanity, as I understand it, is a collective noun to describe all the members of the primate species, homo sapiens. And, I guess, if you are going to describe your life as a gift, then you are going to have to thank your parents! Um, from my point of view, feeling feelings, in a generalised sort of way, however nice they are, is a bit of a dead end street. As a premie, I attempted to make it more real by 'participating', and that's when the crunch came. By actively getting involved, rather than just sending money, I found my idealism, and along with it, my ignorant bliss, getting crunched by the brutish reality of 'Maharaji's World'. By idealism, I mean I thought attributes like honesty, caring, integrity, intelligence, not to mention gentleness or commonsense would be valued. Instead, I found a particularly toxic and dedicated microcosm of the real world, centred around Mr Rawat. You: Krishna said, 'Go ahead and fight, they are already dead', when Arjun was feeling compassion for his enemies. Jesus said, 'Let the dead bury the dead', when talking about the dying. Jesus also said, 'You will always have the poor but you will only have me for a little while'. Goes against the grain of humanistic logic doesn’t it? But there it is. But on the other hand, in Buddhism there is the concept of Bodhisatva. A Bodhisatva is a person who, having taken it upon themselves to become enlightened, in turn help other beings on the path towards enlightenment. Me: Well, I figured I'd had a good look at a living master, and, not finding any reason to think to the contrary, have lumped dead ones in the same basket. You: So what does all this say with respect to priority? Well, I think it says the greatest good is to know truth, self, or whatever you want to call it. All the 'humanitarian' endeavors come second. So here’s the nub of how this point impacts this discussion. In the politically correct milieu of the day, humanism is believed to be of a higher importance in the absolute scheme of things than knowing the self, God, whatever. As a matter of fact holding as the highest virtue the Knowledge of Self is entirely adverse to current popular opinion. Philosophically speaking therefore, ex-premies are people who were once premies, who now align themselves with the current popular milieu, and from that fuel their opposition to Maharaji. Me: I did, I admit, really enjoy being mainstream for the few short weeks or months that I was out of the cult, but had not yet thought my way through the god, jesus issue. Alas, it did not last. Funnily enough, when I took up meditating it was largely considered navel gazing and a waste of time, now that I have stopped, it is gaining a lot of popularity! Look, this 'knowledge of the self' thing is really a bit of a con. For instance, you probably have yourself divided up into a heart and a mind. I question that arbitrary division, in fact, I think it is a harmful delusion. To me, realising that it is a fake distinction is real self knowledge, and useful. Working out that if I move back from something I am working on, my fingers get extra information from the cross referencing my brain must be doing on the two different perspectives is, to me, self knowledge, and most useful. Recognising that many of my needs can only be fulfilled by other people is self knowledge, and vital. Just for the hell of it, I am going to quote Maharaji to you: (roughly) 'There is no point in cutting the branch you are sitting on'. I think he was referring to Earth, and he has a point. In this instance, I am referring to the individual human being, a member of humanity.

Subject: An insidious bit of programming From: Jim To: R2 Date Posted: Mon, Mar 11, 2002 at 23:16:57 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: So here’s the nub of how this point impacts this discussion. In the politically correct milieu of the day, humanism is believed to be of a higher importance in the absolute scheme of things than knowing the self, God, whatever. As a matter of fact holding as the highest virtue the Knowledge of Self is entirely adverse to current popular opinion. Philosophically speaking therefore, ex-premies are people who were once premies, who now align themselves with the current popular milieu, and from that fuel their opposition to Maharaji. If 'humanism', as you call it, is merely a 'politically correct' fad, what is the basis for your morality? Or don't you have any? Can anything you do in the world be wrong if your cult leader, sorry, guru, ask you to do it? What if he merely condones it after the fact? What if he changes his mind? Does your act drift back and forth over the line of moral and immoral on his whim? And tell me, then, R2, what do you say about others who, every bit as sincerely as you, think they're following the one who's above mere worldy morality but they really aren't? The Japanese cult members who killed all those people with sarin gas in the Tokyo subway, if they sincerely believed that their guru was above right and wrong are they morally at fault just because they -- unlike you, of course (trying to keep a straight face here) -- got hoodwinked by a fraud? And what about Abraham? Should he have listened to the voice and killed his son? What if he trusted the first voice as being God's but thought the second one, that called of the hit, was Satan? Should he be forgiven for getting it wrong or is he, alternatively, a very, very screwed up person, dangerous to himself and the rest of us because of his religious fanaticism (unlike you, of course). And what about Andrea Yates? Hey, how about bin Laden? Are you so sure that your guru's the real thing and theirs not? How about Satpal? Do you really know? But back to M, was it not immoral for him to protect Fakiranand after he tried to kill Pat Haley? Was it immoral for him to lie to the press about 'looking into' the situation? I take it you think M is not subject to any moral scrutiny. Is that without limit? Does the same standard apply to his family? Say he and his son both shoplift one day (it happens, even in Malibu -- maybe just a chocolate bar ...). Was it okay for M to steal but not his kid? Finally, R2, do you have any doubt whatsoever that any reasonable person hearing you talk like this would have no hesitation finding that you're a fanatical cult member?

Subject: Programming is it??? From: R2 To: Jim Date Posted: Wed, Mar 13, 2002 at 01:56:06 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: If 'humanism', as you call it, is merely a 'politically correct' fad, what is the basis for your morality? Or don't you have any? Odd question. The basis for true morality is in awareness. That is because after all that’s said and done, there is right and wrong underlying the fabric of existence. An aware person sees when he has done something that is out of step with existence, and learns first hand about morality. Experience rooted in awareness is a far greater basis for morality than any philosophy or religion. Can anything you do in the world be wrong if your cult leader, sorry, guru, ask you to do it? What if he merely condones it after the fact? What if he changes his mind? Does your act drift back and forth over the line of moral and immoral on his whim? Stupid line of dialog Jim. The scenario you paint is hypothetical and too far-fetched to comment on. And tell me, then, R2, what do you say about others who, every bit as sincerely as you, think they're following the one who's above mere worldy morality but they really aren't? The Japanese cult members who killed all those people with sarin gas in the Tokyo subway, if they sincerely believed that their guru was above right and wrong are they morally at fault just because they -- unlike you, of course (trying to keep a straight face here) -- got hoodwinked by a fraud? No known cases I know of a premie planting sarin gas bombs in the subway. Again, a stupid line of dialog. And what about Abraham? Should he have listened to the voice and killed his son? What if he trusted the first voice as being God's but thought the second one, that called of the hit, was Satan? Should he be forgiven for getting it wrong or is he, alternatively, a very, very screwed up person, dangerous to himself and the rest of us because of his religious fanaticism (unlike you, of course). I just don’t know much about Satin Jim. You? But back to M, was it not immoral for him to protect Fakiranand after he tried to kill Pat Haley? Was it immoral for him to lie to the press about 'looking into' the situation? What makes you think he didn’t “look into the situation”? Are you implying from your other examples that M was behind Fakiranand’s actions? I take it you think M is not subject to any moral scrutiny. You have the right to scrutinize him however you want Jim. And you will no doubt use that scrutiny to paint whatever picture suits your own bias. It may not be an accurate picture, but I’m not about to try and convince you otherwise. I don’t have much of a need to. Finally, R2, do you have any doubt whatsoever that any reasonable person hearing you talk like this would have no hesitation finding that you're a fanatical cult member? Are you talking about a reasonable “humanistic” person? That’s an easy one to predict. Here’s one for you. Do you have any doubt that if 90% of the people who read your drivel ever had the misfortune of getting to know you they wouldn't think you’re a jerk?

Subject: If that's all you got, don't bother to post From: Jim To: R2 Date Posted: Wed, Mar 13, 2002 at 11:28:20 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: R2, Would you like to try again? I mean, like all of it? That was a completely useless post of yours. By the way, did you used to post here under another name?

Subject: Re: If that's all you got, don't bother to post From: R2 To: Jim Date Posted: Wed, Mar 13, 2002 at 14:16:20 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Funny, others got something out of that post Jim. Could it be you just didn't get what you wanted out of it, ie: to make a premie look like a fanatical idiot? I know you'll keep trying though. No I haven't posted under another name.

Subject: Re: Programming is it??? From: Livia To: R2 Date Posted: Wed, Mar 13, 2002 at 05:53:35 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The basis for true morality is in awareness. That is because after all that’s said and done, there is right and wrong underlying the fabric of existence. An aware person sees when he has done something that is out of step with existence, and learns first hand about morality. Experience rooted in awareness is a far greater basis for morality than any philosophy or religion. That's a good point, Richard, and I don't think anyone here would argue with it. An aware person sees when he has done something that is out of step with existence, and learns first hand about morality. I am assuming that you would consider Maharaji to be an aware person, particularly as in your post above, you confirm that you think him to be of the same ilk as Jesus and Krishna. That is because after all that’s said and done, there is right and wrong underlying the fabric of existence. So you presumably consider Maharaji to be an aware person, that right and wrong underlie the fabric of our existence, and that an aware person knows when they have done something out of step with existence and learns from it. How do you rationalise, then, that shortly after Pat Halley threw the custard pie, Maharaji was seen taking Fakiranand to one side and speaking in Hindi to him, and a few days later Fakiranand pretended to be about to give Halley Knowledge and then cracked his skull open? How do you rationalise that Jagdeo is still touring around under Maharaji's agya, having never been brought to justice? How do you rationalise that Maharaji has had short dalliances with premie women and disregarded them afterwards? One explanation is that you do not consider any of these as wrong. Another is that you consider Maharaji to be above right and wrong, but then by your reckoning, an aware person knows when he does wrong and learns from it. Another explanation is that you don't believe any of the above to be true. I guess from where you are standing, and from what you have said about awareness and morality, the best thing for you to do is disbelieve all the above accounts. Go right ahead, Richard. With regards, Livia

Subject: Way off, Livia From: Harry To: Livia Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 22:06:52 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Livia, The 'facts' on which you base your assumptions aren't even close to the truth. I don't have the time to get into a laundry list but here's two: 1. Jagdeo isn't, and hasn't been, touring for a few years. You're flat-out wrong there. 2. I don't know of a solitary soul who was close to the 'action' at the time of the Fakirinand/Pie Man episode that believes Maharaji wanted/asked for what ensued to take place. Not one person. He said immediately after he was hit, 'I don't want anything to happen to that guy, he doesn't know what he's doing' and he was furious with Fakirinand after. I suggest you read OP's description of the events of the time in the Akashic Records deprtment of Spin Central as they were there. It's amazing to me that you and others believe this stuff and so much else about Maharaji without question. You must want to because, if you examine it closely, it all comes from the same couple of people, with others repeating bits of heavily embellished detritus like parrots. I'm sticking with what I've seen for myself and it's quite different. have a lovely evening, Harry

Subject: Re: Way off, Livia From: Livia To: Harry Date Posted: Fri, Mar 15, 2002 at 11:41:38 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Harry, how about this? According to a very reliable source the peadophile is now being flown around Africa spreading Knowlwedge to the worlds most uneducated, most vulnerable and most poor. We were told that he left the Delhi ashram after he was questioned by Deepak. We were told that he had gone back to his family village. They lied. Elan Vital just gave him a new assignment. He is now being cared for by some people who know my source. He is being waited on hand and foot, treated like a holy man, has access to children. It is disgusting. SHAME ON YOU DEEPAK. You too have sacrified your humanity. But the person who knows this also saw Jagdeo in Africa on a Connect video recently. They don't even bother to cover up their lies. Will people please find a copy of this video and send the forum all the details. This is disgusting. Abi Can you give me any reason why, Harry, this is more likely to be untrue than true? I know that without the actual video in one's hand, it wouldn't stand up as hard evidence, but if you disbelieve this, then it would suggest to me and to anyone else with a semblance of sense that you would prefer not to believe it. Believe me, I would rather not believe it, and so would Abi. With regards, Livia

Subject: Re: Way off, Livia From: Harry To: Livia Date Posted: Fri, Mar 15, 2002 at 17:02:05 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'Can you give me any reason why, Harry, this is more likely to be untrue than true?' Livia, I certainly hope this isn't the way you discern the truth in other areas of your life! It's beyond belief to me that you would apply such a weak standard to Maharaji, who presumably meant a great deal to you for a part of your life. Would you so easily swallow something about a friend or relative? God, I hope not. This is on the level of, 'a reliable source told me that Richard Gere was treated in the emergency room for felching a gerbil!' By the way, that was believed in the U.S. by thousands of people and was passed around as the truth. I know Deepak, who's a lovely, honorable Nepali guy who runs the ashram in India. He confronted Jagdeo after hearing the horrible charges against him, 20 years after the fact like everyone else, whereupon Jagdeo denied it and burst into tears. He left there (that was '99, I believe) and hasn't returned since. Do you think pedophilia is a badge of honor in India? He was publically shamed and most certainly has not been 'on assignment.' Did it ever occur to you that the 'reliable sources' you've been so eager to believe, aren't reliable at all? Are you that committed to trashing Maharaji based on hearsay or are you this gullible in general? Do you ever ask yourself, 'who am I listening to, anyway?' 'Does this match what I felt?' 'Do the same bits of bullshit, repeated x number of times, automatically become reality after a certain number of repetitions?' Are you aspiring to achieve the world-view and state of being of Jim Heller, Joe Whalen or Michael Dettmers? Is anyone? Seriously? Be honest, you'd rather believe this stuff to support your current view, however you arrived there. If you were a friend, I'd suggest you take a look at that. Be well.

Subject: Unintentionally funny, Harry? From: Jim To: Harry Date Posted: Fri, Mar 15, 2002 at 19:57:29 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I have to laugh seeing you, an anonymous cult member, chastising Livia for believing other peoples' reports and then trying to tell her yourself what 'really' happened. Are you nuts or something? Why should she believe you? Face it, Harry, none of you guys, least of all your cult leader, want any of the facts to emerge about anything. We exes are doing the best we can to learn them nonetheless. Before I go, I have a question for you. But it's up top. Take a look. :)

Subject: Re: Programming is it??? From: R2 To: Livia Date Posted: Wed, Mar 13, 2002 at 13:42:10 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: So you presumably consider Maharaji to be an aware person, that right and wrong underlie the fabric of our existence, and that an aware person knows when they have done something out of step with existence and learns from it. How do you rationalise, then, that shortly after Pat Halley threw the custard pie, Maharaji was seen taking Fakiranand to one side and speaking in Hindi to him, and a few days later Fakiranand pretended to be about to give Halley Knowledge and then cracked his skull open? Livia, you wouldn’t be leaping to a conclusion based upon some third party’s biased observations would you? Your indictment here is extremely circumstantial. How do you rationalise that Jagdeo is still touring around under Maharaji's agya, having never been brought to justice? Again, what facts can you offer to validate your assertion he is “still touring around under Maharaji's agya”? If you are going on heresay and rumor, you should not jump to this conclusion. And if you still feel inclined to make the leap, I would guess you probably believe aliens are indeed among us and Elvis is still alive. How do you rationalise that Maharaji has had short dalliances with premie women and disregarded them afterwards? One explanation is that you do not consider any of these as wrong. I would like to hear from at least one premie women who he had liaisons with and disregarded. Just one. All we’ve heard from so far is third-party observers. And no, I do not consider him having trysts with premie women wrong. Nor do I consider it right. What anybody does in their bedroom is no business of mine, as what I do in mine is no business of anyone else. I can’t judge even the likes of Jimmy Swaggart, and I don’t. With Swaggart though, the biggest joke was how beholding to public opinion he was that he felt he had to parade his “remorse” in front of the cameras like he was doing penance to his maker. Another is that you consider Maharaji to be above right and wrong, but then by your reckoning, an aware person knows when he does wrong and learns from it. I am confident Maharaji is ruled by the same laws of existence as I am. I am sure if he has done anything wrong he knows about it before anyone. Livia, who are you to be so indignant about something the facts of which you know so little about? Do you feel you are some kind of divine instrument or something, and that God needs people like you to maintain his order? I guess from where you are standing, and from what you have said about awareness and morality, the best thing for you to do is disbelieve all the above accounts. Or the other possibility, as I’ve said before, is I just don’t care. What he has shown me stands the test of time, and outweighs my need to hold any moral high-ground.

Subject: Re: Programming is it??? From: Livia To: R2 Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 04:59:49 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Richard, Thanks for that long response. I have a problem with one or two things you said, however. You seem to think that requiring a genuine master to hold to certain universably recognisable ethical standards is tantamount to 'holding the moral high-ground'. Where, then, do you draw the line? Is there indeed anything Maharaji could do that would cause you to question your perception of who he is? Or not? And if the answer is no, what could have happened to the faculty you presumably were born with, called discrimination? Or isn't it really necessary in Maharaji's world? You ask me to come up with substantial proof that the events I described above are true. If you really want me to, I'll do my level best. Do you want me to? Or how about about you coming up with the evidence that they're not true? However, I don't expect you'll be too concerned about any of it either way, because as you said, maybe you 'just don't care'. Let's forget, then, about that interesting and revealing but ultimately troublesome notion you had about right and wrong underlying the fabric of our existence. With regards, Livia

Subject: You shock me.....but I'm not surprised From: R2 To: Livia Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 20:35:58 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You ask me to come up with substantial proof that the events I described above are true. If you really want me to, I'll do my level best. Do you want me to? Or how about about you coming up with the evidence that they're not true? Livia, do you have any idea what integrity means, or do you just pay it lip service? You are so quick to point the finger at Maharaji for lacking the stuff, but here you are telling me that you have no solid basis for the damning accusations you are making. And to top it off, you’re saying it’s up to a premie disprove the accusations. Our justice system doesn’t work that way Livia. And do you have an idea of the negative impact you may have on people’s lives if indeed the tangent you are flying off on is off course? You’ll no doubt just say “sorry about that” and move on. You are a perfect example of how dishonest and unjust ex-premies become in order to rationalize their vendetta.

Subject: Re: You shock me.....but I'm not surprised From: Livia To: R2 Date Posted: Fri, Mar 15, 2002 at 08:55:14 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Richard, I have said I will track down with the evidence that those occurences described above are true. Give me a few days and I'll post it here; you'll then be at liberty to discuss and analyse it and look for any counter-evidence yourself. Integrity - I have to admit my integrity is not what it was before I received Knowledge. Funny things happen to it in Maharaji's world. Making Maharaji and Knowledge one's priority, in my view, distort and corrupt one's interactions with the rest of the world - unless you lead a bit of a double life in that you give more weight to other things than Maharaji recommends, that is, as somebody so aptly pointed out above. Truly making Maharaji and Knowledge your priority leads unfortunately to a blinkered existence, in which a true sense of integrity becomes of secondary importance. I am trying to get my integrity back. You suggest that I am highly irresponsible posting here because it could help to lead premies away from their 'true path'. Obviously I have thought all this through first. I would not have dreamed of posting here unless I had. What convinced me that something was horribly wrong was the revisionism that is now taking place, and the lies that I have heard Maharaji tell. Nothing, I am sorry, nothing justifies that. I have seen premies lie and revise on Maharaji's behalf too, and it's not a pretty sight. A few weeks ago I said to a premie that surely Maharaji used to declare himself the Lord in human form. The premie gave me a twisted look and insisted that that had never been the case and that it was 'all our concepts'. I was aghast, because we were there together at the time when a lot of that happened. But he denied it. And he couldn't look me in the eye. It was weird, really weird. Of course I realised what was doing - he was parroting the new line, just like politicians do when their leader changes tack. I'm sorry but it looks horrible and phony when politicians do it, and it looks horrible and phony when premies do it. And it's Maharaji who is asking premies to do this, and it stinks. It's just plain wrong, and any premie in their right mind should be examining this. But they don't, largely because of fear of the alternatives. And other reasons I'm sure, largely in the area of rationalisation. But it just won't wash, Richard. Lastly, I would be interested to hear your comments about the passage from Shri Hans Ji Maharaj that I posted as an addendum below. And please don't say he was stuck in the concepts of his day or culture. It wasn't that long ago; he only died 45 years ago after all, and anyway, I would doubt that a fully realised soul would be stuck in their concepts. A contradiction in terms, surely? With regards, Livia

Subject: Jagdeo in comfort From: Livia To: Livia Date Posted: Fri, Mar 15, 2002 at 09:13:22 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Harry and Richard, Jagdeo now lives a life of ease. Posted on forum V, on November 26, 2000 From Kelly I have spent some time in the Delhi ashram in the past few years. Jagdeo (aka Mahatma ji) lives a quiet privileged life, waited on hand and foot by sweet humble young Indian premies, who put up with his incessant demands for attention and pander to his every whim. He is obsessed wih keeping a good supply of bottled water in his room, he has boxes and boxes. Not for him the regular ashram tap water. He must be too pure! On several occasions I have seen ordinary premies touch his feet. Personally the only thing I have against him is the very loud and intrusive way he has of clearing his throat and sinus passages. He is also very fond of his food and usually the first to every meal. Sure, he always sits with the other Mahatmas at events, or did when there were Mahatmas. I don't know what they are called now I have not been there in the last year. I happen to know Kelly, by the way, and can vouch for her honesty. With regards, Livia

Subject: Addendum From: Livia To: Livia Date Posted: Wed, Mar 13, 2002 at 09:45:44 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'By their fruits you shall know them. The signs of the Perfect Master are self control, love, discrimination, detachment and lack of partiality. He is without stubbornness. He is peaceful, far from anger, and treats all men equally. At all times He is absorbed in the Holy Word. He is love and affection personified.' Thus spoke Shri Hans Ji Maharaj, Maharaji's father and the 'Perfect Master' before him. Any comments? With regards, Livia

Subject: addendum not far off.... From: EV Spin Doctor To: Livia Date Posted: Wed, Mar 13, 2002 at 14:00:38 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Now hold on there a minute...I think if we change a few words in shri hans' yog prakash, we can make master m look OK.... 'By their toys, you shall know them. The signs of the Perfect Master are self absorption, indicriminate love, attachment and lack of good judgement. He is one with stubbornness. He is not peaceful, close to anger, and treats his devotees unequally. At all times he is self absorbed in his holy form. He is without love and affection to most followers, except for a few busty blondes.....' He's not so bad after all, is he?

Subject: GREAT points+quotes, Liv.... From: La-ex To: Livia Date Posted: Wed, Mar 13, 2002 at 10:17:20 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Another dilemnna for the faithful premie to deal with, as you have so aptly pointed out Livia. On the one hand, Richard outlines in detail how experience coupled with awareness leads to a sense of morality. It then becomes quite another story to explain how maharaji, definitely a man of experience and awareness acording to Richard2, can lead such an immoral life. This immorality can be seen not only from looking at m's personal life, but simply by reading his past quotes compared with his present statements. The more he tries to squirm out of his lies, the deeper hole he digs himself into. And no one around him has the balls to tell him that, assuming they can even see it. All of this is 100% provable, however R2 doesn't seem to want to talk about that. BTW, the shri hans quote was priceless....should be diplayed on EPO somewhere next to some of m's shenanigans.... R2, care to comment?

Subject: Agree: GREAT, Liv.... From: Richard To: La-ex Date Posted: Wed, Mar 13, 2002 at 11:03:08 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Excellent comments. I quite enjoyed your mini-debate with R2 begun by Jim and others. I think R2 made a good effort at justifying his position but you countered very effectively. In the end, M and R2's line of reasoning/justification doesn't stand up to scrutiny. The quotes from Shri Maharaji says it all. Richard, Original Postie Recipe

Subject: Addendum From: R2 To: R2 Date Posted: Mon, Mar 11, 2002 at 21:19:01 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Philosophically speaking therefore, ex-premies are people who were once premies, who now align themselves with the current popular milieu, and from that fuel their opposition to Maharaji. I can add to this, maybe they were premies who always DID align themselves this way, but it took time for them to realize it (read, get real).

Subject: R2-How does m save ones soul? From: JIm S. To: R2 Date Posted: Mon, Mar 11, 2002 at 22:28:17 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: R2- OK, I see you've come back once again to tell us how you are 'saving your soul' first, by following maharaji,and 'good work' comes second. I don't have a problem with that, except for the fact that people like maharaji who tell you that 'saving the world', or getting involved with 'the issues' is a waste of time are simply deluded. We all stand on the shoulders of many, many people who have come before us to make the world a better place in many ways. The world has improved in so many ways from peoples efforts...it's strange to see someone who preaches the concept of 'gratitude' so easily dismiss so many of the great efforts by so many people to make the world a bettr place to live..... However, the real question I have for you R2 is this: Precisely, how does one save their soul by following maharaji? Can you elaborate on this? Is it the techniques? The discourses? Serving the master? And, does m say that he is 'saving peoples souls'? I'm not sure what he's advertising these days, do you? Can you please elaborate on this?

Subject: Re: R2-How does m save ones soul? From: R2 To: JIm S. Date Posted: Wed, Mar 13, 2002 at 14:06:44 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jim First your question regarding what constitutes being saved. Hmmmm. I don’t think I can put that into intellectual terms that make any sense. For me being saved is a feeling of being home, and a knowing from that that home is never far away. Being at home is being one. Complete, whole, no desire to go. The gratitude that comes with this feeling is incredibly uplifting, wholesome, and puts so much depth and meaning into life. That to me is being saved. Precisely, how does one save their soul by following maharaji? Can you elaborate on this? Is it the techniques? The discourses? Serving the master? Having it be real. Having your thirst to be home truly satisfied. Can the above things do that? Yes, in my experience.

Subject: Re: R2-Are you sure? From: OTS To: R2 Date Posted: Wed, Mar 13, 2002 at 15:11:00 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Being at home is being one. Complete, whole, no desire to go. R2, you sound like some junkies I used to know. Just stay at home and nod out. Peace, brother.

Subject: Re: R2-Are you sure? From: R2 To: OTS Date Posted: Wed, Mar 13, 2002 at 16:15:10 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You're kidding, right? Well, just in case you're not I'll humor you. The home I was talking about isn’t a place you use to practice escaping from yourself. Rather, it IS yourself.

Subject: Re: R2-Are you sure? From: OTS To: R2 Date Posted: Wed, Mar 13, 2002 at 16:48:57 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: R2, please go home now. You are boring the kiddies to death.

Subject: Lifesavers Save,Maharaji Spends! (nt) From: Bai Ji To: JIm S. Date Posted: Tues, Mar 12, 2002 at 19:08:06 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Lifesavers Save,Maharaji Spends! (nt) From: Bai Ji To: JIm S. Date Posted: Tues, Mar 12, 2002 at 19:08:02 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Who's saving what and how? From: Jim S. To: Lesley Date Posted: Sat, Mar 09, 2002 at 22:06:50 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I too noted R2's interesting perspective on premies vs. ex-premies in regards to what they are looking for in a leader. The exes are trying to save humanity, while the premies are trying to save their own souls. First of all, I don't think you can create these distinctions without running into all kinds of exceptions to the rule. To me, it just doesn't hold water. Furthermore, is mr. rawat really saving anyone's soul? And how is he doing it? Is it through the new auto-knowledge?....truth on a dvd or an i-mac? Listening to endless videos on the satellite dish that say the same old same old? Contributing money to support a lifestyle that most people would judge immoral? Not being able to question the master, but simply to accept his every word as a child? If we accept R2's premise that even though the premies may not be interested in saving the wrold, or humanity, they are saving their own souls....precisely how is that done? Specifically, how does knowledge and the master do that? The Christians and many other religions have precise definitions of how to 'save one's soul'. (And many of them do not create that distinction-many believe that the two go hand in hand, and that spiritual growth cannot go very far unless one IS involved with 'saving humanity'.) What is maharaji's, and why doesn't he advertise that he is doing that? As he says, 'Why be shy? Shout it from the rooftops!' I'm wondering if R2 could elaborate on: 1-How premies are saving their souls by following m. 2-Why m doesn't say that's what he is doing. 3-Are premies the only 'saved ones'?

Subject: The ultimate dichotomy-me or the world? From: Marianne To: Jim S. Date Posted: Sun, Mar 10, 2002 at 01:14:13 (EST) Email Address: MarianneDB@aol.com Message: This is a wonderful and thought provoking thread, Livia, Richard, Lesley and Jim S. Each of your comments has added to its complexity. For me, the questions you have posed became the central quandries concerning my involvement with Captain Rawat and DLM/EV. I fell for the 'liberate myself, then I can liberate others' satsang that was the central focus of the cult in the early and mid '70's. The message, for the spiritually adventurous anti-war, alternative community hippies, made some sense. It meant that we would each be responsible for reaching a higher consciousness on our own, and then we would reach out to other people to help them find it -- from the lily white ashrams and cloistered environments in which we lived. What a sanctimonious bunch of crap that was! The first way we were supposed to realize God and then reach other people was the debacle of Millennium -- the holiest event in the history of humankind, according to Maharaji himself, and innumerable sycophants, who led us to the trough and made us drink. I guess I always believed that I had a responsibility to other people once I was on stable footing in my life. The suggestion that we only need care for ourselves -- realize peace inside -- in order to discharge any responsibilities for our fellow humankind is truly revolting. When DLM abandoned its commitment to bettering the lives of other people, whether they had knowledge or not, it abandoned its true commitment to humankind. It then spiraled off into an organization that existed for the gratification of a single person -- Captain Rawat. The day I realized that was the day I left the cult, and went to law school. Endless navel gazing, and personal assessments of inner peace, are no substitute for changing the actual conditions of people who live in poverty and struggle. Mariannee

Subject: Re: The ultimate dichotomy-me or the world? From: Pullaver To: Marianne Date Posted: Sun, Mar 10, 2002 at 16:06:28 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: When DLM abandoned its commitment to bettering the lives of other people, whether they had knowledge or not, it abandoned its true commitment to humankind. It then spiraled off into an organization that existed for the gratification of a single person -- Captain Rawat. The day I realized that was the day I left the cult, and went to law school. Endless navel gazing, and personal assessments of inner peace, are no substitute for changing the actual conditions of people who live in poverty and struggle. Hmmm. I don't believe that it was ever a stated purpose of Maharaji or DLM to help out regarding peoples' living conditions. There might have been a couple of spin-off thingies like Rennie Davis' World Health Organization, but I think that they were generally regarded as subtle prachar initiatives and a concerted PR effort to have Maharaji recognized as a humanitarian leader. At least, that was my take. Personally, I bought into the concept of bringing peace on earth one person at a time through receiving knowledge. Now that Marji has publically stated that his mission of spreading this Knowledge is completed I think we can all safely sit back and relax and know that war is over. We are family, family of Love.

Subject: What about DUO? From: Jim To: Pullaver Date Posted: Sun, Mar 10, 2002 at 17:13:25 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Pull, Maharaji most definitely went through a phase where he was saying that we had to feed, clothe and shelter the poor and hungry before they'd ever be interested in enlightenment. That's what DUO was all about. He wore that hat with pride for a year or so. Then it simply went back down to wardrobe.

Subject: Re: What about DUO? From: Pullaver To: Jim Date Posted: Sun, Mar 10, 2002 at 21:13:08 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Oh, I thought DUO was just a new handle Mr. Big and his band-o-honchos came up with after the DLM name was snatched up/reclaimed by Mata-Ji and Satpal after he lost that court case in India. I guess I must have snoozed off before they made the announcement. Either that, or I was just blissfully unaware. In any case I was more concerned about Willie Svob having drycleaning privileges than paying attention to minor details like feeding and clothing the world. Whatever happened to that guy anyway? |D

Subject: Willie Svob? From: Jim To: Pullaver Date Posted: Sun, Mar 10, 2002 at 21:24:48 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Well, to tell you the truth, I don't know what happened to ol' Willie. I did a brief alta vista search and got one William Svob living in Boca Raton, Florida. Maybe? Willie and that Phyllis hottie were a number for a while. But beyond that, beats me. He's probably in business of some sort with Andy Perl or something. Hell, I don't know.

Subject: Eh Heller, you betcha, there From: Willie Slob To: Jim Date Posted: Mon, Mar 11, 2002 at 19:44:43 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: nt

Subject: Looking beyond being saved From: Diz To: Jim S. Date Posted: Sun, Mar 10, 2002 at 00:55:50 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Interesting post, Livia I'm not sure about the 'saving' bit - not sure in middle age that I think I'm about saving anything. But I do agree that as an ex-premie I have decided that I want to identify more as a human being, than as a 'soul' which needs to be saved. And I agree that there's a big difference between the way MJ implied (or sometimes explicitly stated) we should look at the world, and the way I choose to do so now. I think it's true that MJ's teachings encourage narcissism, and that it's gotten more and more that way over time. It's MY experience that counts, not what's happening to anyone or anything else. One of the big drips for me was when MJ said, explicitly, that it was a waste of time to get involved in 'issues'. No point in trying to improve things in the world, the only valid thing to do, in MJ's view, was to concentrate on getting yourself high though meditation. Okay, that's one way to look at life. But to me it's a super limited, self-centred, almost addict-like way to look at it. Mind you, I know there are premies who engage with 'the world' in useful ways. To me, however, they only manage to do so by using a big dose of self-deception. Because I think it's clear that MJ doesn't support that stuff. Or at best implies that it's all secondary. That's why I have some sympathy for the gopi approach. At least it's full on honest to what he's saying. Diz

Subject: New Yorker article on Mormons OT From: Jim To: All Date Posted: Sat, Mar 09, 2002 at 13:18:06 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: What's so interesting about the Mormon church is that it's such an excellent example of a cult turned into a religion (same difference?) all within a relatively easy to follow time frame. The early 1800's might not have been as well documented as the twentieth century but we sure have a better handle on them than, say, the time of Krishna, Buddha, Jesus or even Mohammed. It's funny, therefore, -- funny and pathetic -- to see how the church rationalizes away the facts. We know, for example, that Smith was a chronic liar, about spiritual and mundane affairs. Yet church elders now are willing to go so far as to say that even the deceptions are all part of some perfect plan of God. And these people never even heard of lila! It makes one wonder what, if anything, could ever knock down this faith. It rather looks like even if they found a completely authenticated confession of Smith's that he was only fooling about the tablets and all that nonsense, it wouldn't change anything. 'God is dead, Long live the church!' -- to paraphrase. Lawrence Wright's article on the Mormons in the New Yorker www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?020121fa_FACT1

Subject: thanks Jim From: Susan To: Jim Date Posted: Mon, Mar 11, 2002 at 21:06:46 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: None of my arguing or evidence or anything did any good. It was all seen as a test of faith and she knows in her heart that it is true. Right now I am focusing on just being myself.. Good article.

Subject: We can't all be good parents, I guess From: Jim To: Susan Date Posted: Tues, Mar 12, 2002 at 12:13:20 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Sorry, Susan, I just had to make that little joke. I've been up for hours. Some a*sho*e called me four times from 3:30 to 4 and I haven't gotten back to sleep. I only went to bad at 1:30 so I'm a little tender, you could say. I got up, emailed Laurie (stayed downtown last night because she's got the flu or something), and started doing some work. Now it's after nine, I have to jump in the shower and run off to my trial but really ....really? Really, I just feel like going back to sleep. Greaatttttt..........yawn...glaze...drool.... Susan, I just can't, for the life of me, understand how your otherwise intelligent daughter could walk into this one. My mormon friend (well, Jack-mormon, of course) told me just last night how his dad joined just to get his mum. But that's not the kind of bait your daughter bit so I just can't see it. If she's ever interested in talking with uncle Jimmy I'll tear her haed off if you think that'll help. :)

Subject: Mormon Archeological Digs past and present From: bill To: Jim Date Posted: Sun, Mar 10, 2002 at 08:47:55 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: For all the talk in the Smith Tablets about a civilization here in America, castles, ect, the mormons as mum on any evidence anywhere of their cities. I always mention this to the pairs of mormon kid missionaries that zombie-like stroll the pagan streets of my town looking for heathens to enslave oops, I mean save.

Subject: Re: New Yorker article on Mormons OT From: New-Age Redneck To: Jim Date Posted: Sat, Mar 09, 2002 at 14:02:22 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jim, heck.... the article stole my thunder concerning the Book of Abraham.... But it didn't mention the 'kinderhook plates.' These were planted, I believe, by some farmers in Missouri and were 'translated' and 'authenticated' by Smith. The farmers made the plates by etching with nitric acid.... Of course.... that doesn't matter to the diehards. Oh, yeah.... the mormon 'underclothes' are based SQUARELY upon the freemason symbols. There are pictures of them all over the place. Smith borrowed heavily to create his little cult..... does that remind us of anyone else we know and loathe? :)

Subject: Big up the cq and sulla From: hamzen To: All Date Posted: Sat, Mar 09, 2002 at 07:05:06 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thank god I collapsed the thread and found the neurotheology post of cq's that you re-posted Sulla, MUCH appreciated.

Subject: Can't take all the credit From: cq To: hamzen Date Posted: Sat, Mar 09, 2002 at 11:25:53 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: There were quite a few other people who also posted other articles on the subject (see link above) click here for a link to the EPO archives www.ex-premie3.org/archives/archive.cgi?arch=20011127a#P_9742.3704455917

Subject: It is also in Readers Digest magazine... From: Sulla To: cq Date Posted: Sun, Mar 10, 2002 at 10:56:37 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: In de December 2001 issue in english and in the January 2002 issue in spanish.

Subject: would not agree with Joe's post From: The Maharaji of Malibu To: All Date Posted: Sat, Mar 09, 2002 at 05:40:20 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: One would think that in order to be fair, a recruiter for the maha cult would want to let the recruit know both sides of the issue and let them decide. Why bring someone into the secret society just to have them find out something distasteful later? Why not just let them decide whether the 14 objections are significant to them? If they knew all the facts and still wanted to be involved, well, sign up today! That is why Joe's post seems so reasonable)here it is) --- --- --- --- --- -- I think everyone needs to decide for themselves whether it's relevent or not. I mean, I think it's obvious that the kind of person Maharaji is, his current lying and revisionism, is extremely relevent to deciding if he is worthy of being one's 'master.' I personally can't imagine how it couldn't be relevent. We also have to keep in mind cult programming, which makes it almost impossible to look objectively at the cult leader, so I would take a premie saying that it's 'irrelevent' with a huge grain of salt. But the bottom line is that everyone, premie, ex-premie, aspirant, general public, has the right to KNOW about the kind of person Maharaji is, because Maharaji, himself, has tried very hard to keep the truth about him a secret, and puts out a false picture of who he is. Plus, the fact that he lies about his past, and blames others for what he, himself, did are significant things for people to know, even if Richard 2 chooses not to care.

Subject: Propagation is Done in the West From: gerry To: The Maharaji of Malibu Date Posted: Sat, Mar 09, 2002 at 12:17:55 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I agree that people have the right to know 'the rest of the story.' People are much more savvy nowadays than thirty years ago. Today any serious person conducts an internet search upon hearing about Maharaji. Then of course, they run the other way as fast as they can. Rawat is stymied on the net by our presence. Too bad for him, because it's by far the cheapest and some say the best way of getting your message out. Now he has to use other, more complicated and expensive methods, at a time when donations are drying up. Poor, poor Rawat! Ha!

Subject: Maharaji really believed..... From: If To: gerry Date Posted: Sat, Mar 09, 2002 at 14:40:25 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: in the importance of spreading knowledge to the world, wouldnt' he use every last penny of his millions for propogation?

Subject: Re: Maharaji really believed..... From: Livia To: If Date Posted: Sat, Mar 09, 2002 at 14:47:48 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Funny, I've been thinking that lately too. A LOT, and I mean really a lot could be done with $50. Btw, does anyone know if the $50 is inclusive or exclusive of assets? Whichever it is, it's a hell of a lot of money, and could be used for so much......plus the fact that if he wasn't so obscenely rich, a lot more people would've been interested. The whole thing just seems weirder and weirder the more i think about it, and I can't see for the life of me why I couldn't see it before. Makes me weep. Love to all, Livia

Subject: another take on this From: cq To: Livia Date Posted: Sat, Mar 09, 2002 at 15:37:03 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: To be fair, Prem Pal Singh, aka Maharaji, inherited an incredibly heavy burden at what was a very young age. Imagine having to follow in the footsteps of a father who decided that you had, not only to 'spread this knowledge to every land', but to wear the mantle of thinking yourself to be 'greater than God', and convincing the world that you were. A major head-f**k if ever there was one. He compromised. He took on the imposed role, thereby appearing to pay his dues to his father's wishes, but managed to rebel against those wishes by making sure he came out of the deal with his every desire satisfied. Materially speaking, of course. Maybe, in his heart of hearts, he wouldn't have wanted to deal with all the criticism that has inevitably resulted from playing a role that was totally alien to his nature, but to him, that's probably a small price to pay for the huge financial (and adulatory) rewards he's received since he was a toddler. If only his father had asked him to be true to who he really was ... (would have saved the likes of us a lot of wasted time and effort ...)

Subject: Re: another take on this From: Marshall To: cq Date Posted: Mon, Mar 11, 2002 at 15:46:33 (EST) Email Address: none Message: CQ, Screw being 'fair'! Fuck poor little prem pals, 'heavy burden'. You generally are, I feel, sensible about the issues here CQ, but I couldn't let this slip by. I concede that Prem Pal had a strange childhood, and his dad was a freak, etc. but... I don't know there's something fishy with the whole apologist tone of, 'poor little confused prem desperately wanted to please his dead father, and, he didn't really know any better, and it's because of his culture, and it's not really his fault, and blah blah, ad infinitum...' Rawat is a demented little prick. Period. (in my opinion) Lot's of people had strange or abusive childhoods and didn't go on to be BAD people. Some people clearly did (Koresh, GW Bush, etc.) turn out evil, but... some people actually had the FORTITUDE to do the right thing(despite their age, etc.) Excuses, excuses. Hitler had excuses too. There is no excuse.

Subject: Bravenet and the Worldwide Linkup From: Sir Dave To: All Date Posted: Sat, Mar 09, 2002 at 04:59:46 (EST) Email Address: worldwide_linkup@hotmail.com Message: Bravenet (the Worldwide Linkup host) has been down for over a week now and I suspect they've gone out of business. You can always tell when hosts are having difficulties because they put larger and larger pop-up ads on their pages to try and get revenue. I backed up ''The Great Wordwide Linkup'' before Bravenet went down although I've missed the posts put there in February. I will put all the posts onto normal html web pages and will accept new ads by email from now on. Eventually, I'll get a proper email form to fill in but for the time being, any new contact ads can be simply emailed to wordwide_linkup@hotmail.com

Subject: Oh and here's the link From: Sir Dave To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Sat, Mar 09, 2002 at 05:39:09 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The Great Worldwide Linkup www.geocities.com/Athens/Ithaca/8154/

Subject: Video giveaway From: Loaf To: All Date Posted: Sat, Mar 09, 2002 at 02:52:23 (EST) Email Address: loafji@yahoo.com Message: I have about 40 or 50 VHS PAL vids from between 1986 (Evolution) to 1999 which if nobody wants em... are going in the bin. Such timeless classics as 'Feel the Confusion' and 'Eat your words' as well as a few rarities. I just cant be arsed giving em shelf room any more Email me if you want em... otherwise they bite the dust. They can be taped over. I am in the UK.

Subject: Loafie - I'll have 'em From: Moley To: Loaf Date Posted: Sun, Mar 10, 2002 at 20:21:44 (EST) Email Address: moley@redcrow.demon.co.uk Message: What fun ! Can I come and get them this week??? Nige says - have you got 'Against the Odds'from 2/3 years ago?

Subject: Re: Video giveaway From: BRYN To: Loaf Date Posted: Sun, Mar 10, 2002 at 08:11:46 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Have you got a copy of 'Bewildered' still? I'll swap it for my spare copy of 'Longing for Longing for Longing'. I just found 'Stunned by the Grace' its a early ninties classic you know. Love Bryn,glad to see your still afoot.

Subject: I do From: silvia To: Loaf Date Posted: Sat, Mar 09, 2002 at 12:20:06 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: To complete my collection of 400 I already have, seriously. parana54@hotmail.com

Subject: Ooooops ! From: Loaf To: silvia Date Posted: Sat, Mar 09, 2002 at 12:26:52 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: i got too excited at the thought of getting rid of em... I simply couldnt wait ! So I hauled em all down to my dustbin and chucked 'em in.. it was great ! I am sorry Silvie if you think you've missed out but they werent good for nuttin' - so my guess is.. you missed nowt ! All gone. Except one. I am sorry !

Subject: Re: Ooooops ! From: silvia To: Loaf Date Posted: Sun, Mar 10, 2002 at 08:26:53 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: cq and I want to being doing the transcripts of 'important' videos to put around the net somewhere. If you find more let us know. Our community bought MANY videos, but of course, we didn't have all of them. Take care.

Subject: Re: Ooooops ! From: cq To: silvia Date Posted: Sun, Mar 10, 2002 at 11:59:43 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Silv, Yup, it's true I offered to transcribe your vids. And the offer still stands. But with your system being NTCS, and mine PAL (being UK based), I think I told you that you'd need to send me audio version on either CD or cassette. When you've done that, I'm ready to start on the transcriptions. P.S. check out the link above. click here for part 1 of the Nottingham event www.dreamwater.net/planetqwerty/info/Nottingham1.html

Subject: In time they might be seen as comedy 'cult classics' From: Carl To: Loaf Date Posted: Sat, Mar 09, 2002 at 18:02:02 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I wonder what they'd go for on eBay. All you exes and premies, you've got a goldmine of collectibles! Invest for your retirement! There's probably some rare ones, some unauthorized ones, like the Buddy Rich 'curse out' tape. Don't toss 'em . . . Trade 'em! Get the complete set! Carl (who just loves his Beany Baby collection.) Just kidding. About the Beany Babies, that is.

Subject: Re: Ooooops ! From: Nottm Bunny To: Loaf Date Posted: Sat, Mar 09, 2002 at 15:12:37 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: What a big tease you turn out to be Loaf! Which one did you keep - Evolution? As a consolation, Silvia, I have a load you could have plus some vintage 70's audio tapes. On one condition, you say what you are intending to do with them?!? Regards, Bunny

Subject: Re: Ooooops ! From: silvia To: Nottm Bunny Date Posted: Sun, Mar 10, 2002 at 08:28:41 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yeah. Read my post to Loaf please. We want to do transcripts of them to put them online.

Subject: Re: Ooooops ! From: Nottm Bunny To: silvia Date Posted: Sun, Mar 10, 2002 at 10:25:02 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I have already read your post to Loaf that's why I made the offer. Unfortunately your response was too late - Marianne jumped in first and nabbed them! cq can email me to see if I can help - he knows where I am. Bunny

Subject: It was cathartic ! From: Loaf To: Nottm Bunny Date Posted: Sun, Mar 10, 2002 at 03:10:05 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I am sorry i didnt mean to be a big tease :0) I had a shelffull of em sitting there for years.. some of which had meant a lot to me at the time (Oasis, Arise, and my favourite 'Feel Yourself') However once I had posted my post... I was impatient ! they were now off their shelf and cluttering up my hallway... and for those of you who have been here.. its cluttered enough already ! So OFF they went to the big purple wheelie bin in the sky. I still have some pics up in my house... and my maharaji photo album... and my altar.... so all is not lost. Anyone want a big 20 x 16' photo of the Fat one ? Alltogether sing : ' Its the great pakki in the sky.....'

Subject: Loafie - get your rubber glove on From: Moley To: Loaf Date Posted: Sun, Mar 10, 2002 at 20:30:13 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: And get them outya wheelie bin immediately. Fancy a cuppa this week?

Subject: OK OK I am going INTO THE BIN ! From: Loaf To: Moley Date Posted: Sun, Mar 10, 2002 at 22:58:34 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You bastards ! Yes Moley come round today... cos if I haul them out of their purple wheelie heaven I wont want them lying about (You know what a minimalist I am) - and what we should do is write the titles down so that Sylvie can grab a few. Right then.. I am going into me bin in the morning... it will be like 'All creatures Great and Small' (an old Yorkshire vet* show) me as Tristram Farnam with me arm up a cows arse pulling gobbets of wisdom from the great landfill in the sky. *(Not like Vietnam Vets...they hurt animals - Yorkshire vets are all competant and nice, like lovely Dr. Chinnery)

Subject: Re: OK OK I am going INTO THE BIN ! From: Moley To: Loaf Date Posted: Mon, Mar 11, 2002 at 05:14:13 (EST) Email Address: moley@redcrow.demon.co.uk Message: Boldy going where no one has gone before! Okie dokie - will come round today. I'll ring yer when I've spoken to Nige cos he's at uni with the car. (Will you have showered? Will I need protective clothing? Gas mask?) xxx

Subject: This is a great way of talking From: Loaf To: Moley Date Posted: Mon, Mar 11, 2002 at 08:57:51 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: like leaving notes under an old tree I cant find your number - ring me ! (Dress as usual... wellington boots et al)

Subject: There's plenty more where they came from From: PatC To: Loaf Date Posted: Sun, Mar 10, 2002 at 03:48:23 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Absolutely, Loaf! Once I no longer liked the man I wanted everything about him OUT OF MY HOUSE! Pure filth! My little pigsty felt a lot cleaner after I got rid of the very reverend's revivalist nonsense.

Subject: old dreams From: Ulf To: All Date Posted: Fri, Mar 08, 2002 at 19:17:57 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: This is from a pamphlet, that was made by D.L.M in 1975 . It is called : Changing the world by changing people`s heart Here it comes,,, be brave,,,,,, Our mission is to bring peace , love and truth into this world. Man is supposed to be human , but actually he has lost his humanity. That is why there is so much frustation, so much jealousy, and so much hatred betwin human beings. But every person who receives this knowlegde becomes a member of this family , and we are now a big beautiful family and we are growing. This is how we are going to hook every brother and sister in this world , every human being , into one chain of love and peace - by knowledge. Because this knowledge can do it . Knowledge is the only thing that can tie everybody - it doesn`t matter if he`s a indian spanish, portuguese, dutch, anybody , it doesn`t matter who he is - into one thread , one thread of this most beautiful knowledge. And then this whole world will be a most beautiful, beautiful garden.... Guru Maharaj Ji

Subject: Re: old dreams From: Richard To: Ulf Date Posted: Fri, Mar 08, 2002 at 22:16:03 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Ulf, was that the brochure with color photos and a heart line running through it? If so, I designed that piece. If it's the one I think it is, I recall being filled with so much hope and was proud to part of M's stated goal of bringing peace to people's hearts and therefore bring peace to the world. Sounded believeable to me at the time. What a turn around to see what he stands for today. Sad really, to have his followers come here to tell us that what he does and says don't matter as long as they get high from believing him. Pathetic.

Subject: Re: old dreams From: michael donner To: Richard Date Posted: Sat, Mar 09, 2002 at 13:37:13 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: i was sold on that message...sounded believable to me at the time also. the message hooked me, captured the essense of my personal goal peace within and help to bring world peace. by giving my power away to someone else i sabataged both possibilites simaltaneously. the idea that if i could surrender to the master...if the entire population could just see the master and surrender to him that world peace would happen....wow, what a dream/mind fuck. amazing in retrospect. how deep is the hunger for personal peace and world peace! willing to grasp at any straw that comes along. i also notice how connected the issues of power and security are in all this. i, for example, feel powerless in light of the situation in the middle east...afraid that we will all be drawn into a death spirl by the actions of others that i feel so powerless to affect. and, ironically, that powerless feeling often gets expressed in giving my power away to some ....wanting some...charismatic leader to step in and save me (us all). but, clearly i must continue to develop my own sense of self and self power and learn to live with the anxiety i feel due to events around me...and not fall again into actions that are illusion and conterproductive. not always easy, but essential for my spirit.

Subject: Richard and Pat From: Ulf To: Richard Date Posted: Sat, Mar 09, 2002 at 10:49:52 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yes indeed , the brochure is the one you made , there is a heart line running through every one of the 20 pages, and a lot color photos with M and the divine Durga ji, infact the one where they are dancing at the beach are on second page. if you wish i will send you a copy. And thanks to Pat,,for your words,, i will e-mail you soon. Cheers Ulf

Subject: Ulf and PatC From: Richard To: Ulf Date Posted: Sat, Mar 09, 2002 at 13:16:13 (EST) Email Address: richard@rogers-graphics.com Message: Thanks for the offer to send me a copy, Ulf. If you have an extra copy, I'll gladly take it. Email me and I'll give you an address. PatC the flower child, it was our dreams that financed the road company of SatGuru Has Come. He just supplied the old Indian script and Bhakti JuJu. But, unlike Mel Brooks' Producers, his goal wasn't to produce the flop it has become. Richard, we are stardust, we are golden and we've got to get ourselves back to the garden

Subject: Re: old dreams - Thanks Ulf and Richard From: PatC To: Richard Date Posted: Sat, Mar 09, 2002 at 03:57:57 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks for typing that up, Ulf, and thanks, Richard, for designing it and thanks both of you for being the sweethearts who believed in that dream. ''And then this whole world will be a most beautiful, beautiful garden....'' Now we have Andrea Erikson, Dot Munchbutt and Dickie Pwickie vying with each other to see who has the most expensive BMW in order to keep up with the cult Joneses or is that ''keep up with the Rawats'' because that seems to be the highest aspiration of all thoroughly modern PWKs. Dot: ''Well, I don't have a real gold-plated toilet but I painted it gold.'' Andrea: ''Well, my husband insisted on real gold faucets, well okay just one faucet - the cold water one.'' PatC the Flowerchild

Subject: An anonymous premie emailed me a virus From: Sir Dave To: All Date Posted: Fri, Mar 08, 2002 at 14:40:47 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: and they may have emailed it to you. It is in the file: creator.bat and the name of the virus is W32/Magistr.b@MM. Of course, I didn't open the attachment. I like the terminology in the text which they included in the email. It is so obviously premie (read, copied from Maharaji's trite utterences). Part of the text reads: ''God only knows we spend so much time being knowledgeable about everything but who we are, what are we really doing, and take care of the gift of this life by spending time on the learning how to care for it. The question here should be what makes me do these things to my body? If the answer is my mind you are 50% there.'' Now there is one nasty person. Sneakily emailing viruses to people while spewing Maha platitudes in the process. A weird lot, these people. The email came pretending to be talking about a cookery book which was supposed to be attached. The title of the email was "My most, deepest thank (sic)" and the full text that came with the email is as follows: "This book it not just any fashion diet it is rather a comprehensive simple explanations of various knowledge of foods in order to make an educated choice. Rather than believing in monkey see monkey do generalize diet that disrespect the need for true custom-made diet for the individual instead of the masses. God only knows we spend so much time being knowledgeable about everything but who we are, what are we really doing, and take care of the gift of this life by spending time on the learning how to care for it. Moderation what a word and the meaning of it is not understood very well. Has long as we do excesses and end up with side effects, you would think since those excesses make us feel bad, it would be easy to give them up. But no the dilemma goes on. The question here should be what makes me do these things to my body? If the answer is my mind you are 50% there."

Subject: Re: An anonymous premie emailed me a virus From: New-Age Redneck To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Sat, Mar 09, 2002 at 14:15:23 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dave, this was a peach, '...''God only knows we spend so much time being knowledgeable about everything but who we are, what are we really doing, and take care of the gift of this life by spending time on the learning how to care for it....' Yes, and how we 'fix ourselves' is to become completely self-absorbed. Ahhhh..... the 'meaning' of life is to become narcissist! NOW I understand! I would ask these idiots a simple question, 'if meditation felt miserable and doing the will of their god was total drudgery, would they do it?' If they answer NO, then it is OBVIOUS that 'worship' and 'self realization' is nothing but self-gratification. Jeez, I can do THAT with a single hand! AND it will be just as effective for 'seeing' god! he he he :) WHY NOT JUST LIVE?! Forget about your 'place' in this world and just LIVE in your place? Try to be a decent person and let others try to be decent people. Jeez, does it take a friggin' guru to figure this one out?

Subject: Tut Tut From: A Troll To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Fri, Mar 08, 2002 at 19:17:41 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Im a troll! :)

Subject: Who's that trip, trip trapping... From: Tonette To: A Troll Date Posted: Fri, Mar 08, 2002 at 21:22:33 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Across my bridge. It's me, Billy Goat Gruff, please don't eat me!

Subject: I get them all the time! From: JHB To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Fri, Mar 08, 2002 at 17:32:25 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Strangely, before I became EPO webmaster I very rarely received viruses. I now get them regularly to my Latvian address, the old EPO webmaster address, and the new one. I save them all so I reckon I've got a pretty good virus library now. Anyone want a virus? John.

Subject: Magistrar.b symptoms From: Jennifer To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Fri, Mar 08, 2002 at 17:05:02 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dave, My computer had the magistrar.b back at the beginning of the year. It wasn't that hard to get rid of with the anti-virus software. (The one that was a bitch to eradicate was the hybris virus--took a week, myself and two technicians!) Magistrar made the icons on my desktop jump around and it sent copies of my publisher and word documents to people in my address book (and people in their address books and so on) It also made it impossible for me to download anti-virus updates from Norton or McAfee. Are you sure this premie sent this to you on purpose? Magistrar.b will attach itself to e-mail and attachments without the sender's knowledge. It's a random program that attacks address books in programs like Outlook Express.

Subject: Thanks Jen & Jean but my point was From: Sir Dave To: Jennifer Date Posted: Fri, Mar 08, 2002 at 21:12:37 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: that the text which came with the attachment was so obviously written by a premie. I'm not worried about viruses and have enough anti-virus software to kill an elephant but this was so obviously sent by a premie that I thought it was worth mentioning. Of course, like most people I get viruses all the time and most to my business address. My main problem is spam email. I get up to forty a day and it's hard to find the real posts sometimes amongst all the spam.

Subject: Junk mail etc From: Jean-Michel To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Sat, Mar 09, 2002 at 16:53:45 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: My (snail)mailbox is filled with junk mail almost everyday. Same problem. Some have an assistant to sort all this, some do it themselves ......... Same thing with phone calls at my office. I get a significant number of unwanted and really bothering calls..... Same thing with people coming to my office searching for anything. I'm going to retire in a cave .......... and meditate !!!! Finally !!!!!!

Subject: Use your IP's virus filter From: Jean-Michel To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Fri, Mar 08, 2002 at 17:02:59 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Most IPs have a virus filter/virus check for emails: set it ON, and you'll be safe.

Subject: This could have been you. Regrets? From: Jim To: All Date Posted: Fri, Mar 08, 2002 at 14:03:28 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: From ELK: My two sides Ivete Belfort Mattos: From Sao Paolo, Brazil Events are happiness for my heart and a drama in my head before they start. When I start to make any plans, I listen a voice inside me often telling me: 'I told you that you are not going to get the visa, the ticket or do the registration on time'; 'Registration is bound to end before you have a chance to do it.';'And now you have not received any confirmation, so, you cannot go'; 'The hall will be full and you will not be allow to go inside'. In addition, it insists:'Please remember how many times you have travelled for many hours and your seat was at the very back of the hall.' This persistent feeling that I will be excluded, alone and rejected.has never, ever been realised. When this feeling starts I practice more that I normally do. But I have also developed a routine to support myself: I have always my binoculars with me, valid visas, and timetables of all the airlines. I do my registration as soon it starts, I arrive before events begin. Yet I do like to go beyond this practical checklist and for this reason: I love to participate. Not only it is a privilege to assist and support an event, but it also distracts my always creative mind. Somehow this feels selfish so I find it hard to confess, but one thing I know is that it works. When I am involved participating, I forget all these imaginary scenarios. I concentrate all my focus on it. So now an event starts for me when I feel the urge to help out, for it is truly my pleasure, my privilege and my joy. Some times when I get back, that same voice starts up again:'Why do you travel so much?' But this is a question which no longer disturbs me; my answers is always the same 'To learn'. This is a simple answer that always works. I know that I have a silent joy lighting me up inside. This gives me hope of attending the next event, where the thirst I feel, I know, will be quenched...

Subject: Regrets? Premies have no time for regrets ... From: cq To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, Mar 08, 2002 at 14:38:57 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I see ... a rat upon a wheel ... saying: 'This gives me hope of attending the next event, where the thirst I feel, I know, will be quenched... ' until ... ' ... I listen a voice inside me often telling me: 'I told you that you are not going to get the visa, the ticket or do the registration on time'; 'Registration is bound to end before you have a chance to do it.';'And now you have not received any confirmation, so, you cannot go'; 'The hall will be full and you will not be allow to go inside'. In addition, it insists:'Please remember how many times you have travelled for many hours and your seat was at the very back of the hall.' until ... 'This gives me hope of attending the next event, where the thirst I feel, I know, will be quenched... ' until ... ' ... I listen a voice inside me often telling me: 'I told you that you are not going to get the visa, the ticket or do the registration on time'; 'Registration is bound to end before you have a chance to do it.';'And now you have not received any confirmation, so, you cannot go'; 'The hall will be full and you will not be allow to go inside'. In addition, it insists:'Please remember how many times you have travelled for many hours and your seat was at the very back of the hall.' until: 'This gives me hope of attending the next event, where the thirst I feel, I know, will be quenched... ' until ... ' ... I listen a voice inside me often telling me: 'I told you that you are not going to get the visa, the ticket or do the registration on time'; 'Registration is bound to end before you have a chance to do it.';'And now you have not received any confirmation, so, you cannot go'; 'The hall will be full and you will not be allow to go inside'. In addition, it insists:'Please remember how many times you have travelled for many hours and your seat was at the very back of the hall.' until: 'This gives me hope of attending the next event, where the thirst I feel, I know, will be quenched... ' until ... ' ... I listen a voice inside me often telling me: 'I told you that you are not going to get the visa, the ticket or do the registration on time'; 'Registration is bound to end before you have a chance to do it.';'And now you have not received any confirmation, so, you cannot go'; 'The hall will be full and you will not be allow to go inside'. In addition, it insists:'Please remember how many times you have travelled for many hours and your seat was at the very back of the hall.' until: 'This gives me hope of attending the next event, where the thirst I feel, I know, will be quenched... ' until ... ' ... I listen a voice inside me often telling me: 'I told you that you are not going to get the visa, the ticket or do the registration on time'; 'Registration is bound to end before you have a chance to do it.';'And now you have not received any confirmation, so, you cannot go'; 'The hall will be full and you will not be allow to go inside'. In addition, it insists:'Please remember how many times you have travelled for many hours and your seat was at the very back of the hall.' until: 'This gives me hope of attending the next event, where the thirst I feel, I know, will be quenched... ' until ... ' ... I listen a voice inside me often telling me: 'I told you that you are not going to get the visa, the ticket or do the registration on time'; 'Registration is bound to end before you have a chance to do it.';'And now you have not received any confirmation, so, you cannot go'; 'The hall will be full and you will not be allow to go inside'. In addition, it insists:'Please remember how many times you have travelled for many hours and your seat was at the very back of the hall.' until: 'This gives me hope of attending the next event, where the thirst I feel, I know, will be quenched... ' until ... ' ... I listen a voice inside me often telling me: 'I told you that you are not going to get the visa, the ticket or do the registration on time'; 'Registration is bound to end before you have a chance to do it.';'And now you have not received any confirmation, so, you cannot go'; 'The hall will be full and you will not be allow to go inside'. In addition, it insists:'Please remember how many times you have travelled for many hours and your seat was at the very back of the hall.' until: 'This gives me hope of attending the next event, where the thirst I feel, I know, will be quenched... ' until ... ' ... I listen a voice inside me often telling me: 'I told you that you are not going to get the visa, the ticket or do the registration on time'; 'Registration is bound to end before you have a chance to do it.';'And now you have not received any confirmation, so, you cannot go'; 'The hall will be full and you will not be allow to go inside'. In addition, it insists:'Please remember how many times you have travelled for many hours and your seat was at the very back of the hall.'

Subject: And her follow-up From: Jim To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, Mar 08, 2002 at 14:07:49 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Amaroo 2002 I so much want to go to Amaroo. I trust that my heart will overcome all, driving me there to fulfill all my wishes to listen and learn more about the inner gift of beauty in that special place. It is so peaceful there. For all that care, I thank you all. I hope to be there. I hope to enjoy it. Ivete Belfort Mattos Sao Paolo, Brazil

Subject: From: This could have been you. Regrets? To: All Date Posted: Fri, Mar 08, 2002 at 14:02:00 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: From ELK: My two sides Ivete Belfort Mattos: From Sao Paolo, Brazil Events are happiness for my heart and a drama in my head before they start. When I start to make any plans, I listen a voice inside me often telling me: 'I told you that you are not going to get the visa, the ticket or do the registration on time'; 'Registration is bound to end before you have a chance to do it.';'And now you have not received any confirmation, so, you cannot go'; 'The hall will be full and you will not be allow to go inside'. In addition, it insists:'Please remember how many times you have travelled for many hours and your seat was at the very back of the hall.' This persistent feeling that I will be excluded, alone and rejected.has never, ever been realised. When this feeling starts I practice more that I normally do. But I have also developed a routine to support myself: I have always my binoculars with me, valid visas, and timetables of all the airlines. I do my registration as soon it starts, I arrive before events begin. Yet I do like to go beyond this practical checklist and for this reason: I love to participate. Not only it is a privilege to assist and support an event, but it also distracts my always creative mind. Somehow this feels selfish so I find it hard to confess, but one thing I know is that it works. When I am involved participating, I forget all these imaginary scenarios. I concentrate all my focus on it. So now an event starts for me when I feel the urge to help out, for it is truly my pleasure, my privilege and my joy. Some times when I get back, that same voice starts up again:'Why do you travel so much?' But this is a question which no longer disturbs me; my answers is always the same 'To learn'. This is a simple answer that always works. I know that I have a silent joy lighting me up inside. This gives me hope of attending the next event, where the thirst I feel, I know, will be quenched...

Subject: M sound like Jim Jones? You decide From: Jim To: All Date Posted: Fri, Mar 08, 2002 at 13:32:55 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'm supposed to be working on something at home today but I saw this last night and thought I'd take a few minutes to share it with you. It's a taste of some satsang M gave, I don't know when. It's from the November / December '77 Divine Times, page 17, but I don't have the beginning or end of it, unfortunately, so I don't know where he actually uttered this wisdom: Now people start looking for satsifaction, and what do they look for satisfaction in? In what? Well you see, it's like this -- you know, I mean, we can take examples of Lord Ram. Or we can take examples of Jesus Christ. And he used to travel on a mule; he would ho place to place. He had a mule, and therefore he had a property; he had an asset. [unintentional pun?] But it wasn't like he was saying, 'Man, if this mule goes away, I don't know what I'm going to do.' It wasn't that kind of a situation. The situation was: There it was. And that's what it was, and that's where it stayed at, and that was it. So premies, it's like not having that understanding that this whole thing that we seek satisfaction from is only our own substitute that we have generated from our dissatisfaction; therefore the present satisfaction, in any way that man seeks for it, is a product, a top-quality product, of his own dissatisfaction. And so therefore it is such a puzzle. It's such a rigamarole. You go from one point, and that leads you to the same point. If you go to that point, it puts you in another point. So it's like, it doesn't matter what you do or where you go. You're going to end up at one of the points that seem to be at the same place at the same time -- at all the places. So premies, really, if you look at it, we are so fortunate. We are so lucky. We are so -- I mean, what are the words? I guess fortunate, lucky ... I guess if somebody knows more highfalutin English, they probably have some more words. But we are just so lucky to be here in this world.[Okay, if it was impenetrable nonsense before, here's where it starts to get weird. First, we're so lucky to be in this world. Then watch what happens] Because maybe a hundred years from now the world is going to be even more crazy. But definitely there is one thing: We won't live to see it. So right now, the way it is, I think it's crazy enough for us. And in this crazy world -- and it's just such a beautiful thing. Becuase there it is -- pitch darkness. And you are walking through this park, through this jungle. And you stumble, you know, and it's pitch dark; can't see anything. And you stumble, and you feel what it is, and it's a headstone. You feel a whole graveyard there. Then you walk by a little bit more, you step on something; you see a big stone there. Something scratches you on the cheeks; you feel that there is a barren tree there. And slowly and slowly, just in your own imagination (and not even imagination -- even in the reality of how grotesque that place really is), you start to feel it; you start to know about it. And when that starts to happen, a fear, a dnager starts to grown in your own mind, or in your own heart. [Watch out Janice!] And it's just like you are thinking of so much stuff, because you can't see anything. And you are walking -- I mean, you just don't know. You just don't know. And maybe you are very strong, but yet it's that fear of unknown that's just bothering you, that's just getting you. And in all this craziness, all of a sudden you hear something coming, something approaching. And then all of a sudden it just lights up the whole place. Such a bright light ligths up the whole place. And you see that yes, this is a graveyard. The things you were feeling were grotesque. But you also see that there is no need to fear. There is no need to be afraid. And you can clearly then just be who you are, be what you are supposed to be, and enjoy the further beauties, than to be completely scared and now know. And this is the way this is. In this world we tumble, we stumble, we fall down, and we feel things, you know. And it's just -- we don't knwo what it is. We just don't know. And it's just like, fear grows in our hearts. And this is what I was saying: Maybe it is your imagination. But defintiely only to some extent. Because in reality there is a lot of grossness to what you are feeling. In reality there is a lot of dissatisfaction. Because I mean, yes, I can come down here and give you satsang for two hours on just one thing: how gross this world is. You know, that's one thing that's really incredible -- that you cannot run out of words for gross it has become, you know. And it's just like, you can say that you just feel like packing up your sleeping bag and just taking off to some cave, some mountain, where there just won't be anything. And yet, you can see that this is what probably all the saints, all the mahatmas, all the sadhus used to do. They used to just say, 'Man, this is weird.' And they used to just split and go somewhere where it was nice. ******** But to attain all that I have talked about, it's our own love, it's our own surrender, that we have to surrender oursleves to. We have to surrender ourselves to Guru Maharaj Ji. And maybe a lot of people have this question: 'Why? I have my life.' This is the reasoning. And maybe I'm going to give you a few reasons. But maybe none of those reasons you yourself think. But maybe they are close enough. 'I have my life. I was given this life. Why should I surrender it?' Or maybe you think, 'Why should anybody surrender? If there is this thing to be given, this Knowledge, this thing to be given, why should it be given only when you surrender? Why can't it just be given as it is?' Or maybe you think, 'Well, surrender is just not possible. It doesn't exist.' Or maybe you think that it's too hard for you to do. But let me just take it again. First of all, for people who think it's really their lives, they should think about it twice. It's not. If it is, well how come one day you just split? **** But there is only one solution. And what that is is surrender. But that's what I'm saying you should look twice. You don't own your life. This has been given to you for a specific purpose. **** Okay, and I'm pretty sure you have taken ferries at one time or another. If you're taking a ferry and it's supposed to bring you from one end of the river to the other end of the river, butyou jump off, how is it going to take oyu form one end to the other end? I mean, you have to make sense. It just doesn't work that way. If you jump off, that's where you are going to stay. You're probably going to drown. And if there's a current coming, it's just going to sweep you away. And then maybe, afte you die, you're going to become really buoyant, and then it'll just take you and put you ashore somewhere.'

Subject: He sounds totally incoherent From: New-Age Redneck To: Jim Date Posted: Sat, Mar 09, 2002 at 14:30:40 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jim, this quote is the most confused speech I've ever heard from any person, '...'Man, if this mule goes away, I don't know what I'm going to do.' It wasn't that kind of a situation. The situation was: There it was. And that's what it was, and that's where it stayed at, and that was it. ' Talk about meaningless tripe! We actually listened to this and nodded our approval/understanding? AND ANOTHER: '...So it's like, it doesn't matter what you do or where you go. You're going to end up at one of the points that seem to be at the same place at the same time -- at all the places....' I guess this means we're ALL going to 'make it,' no matter what we do. Hey, Jim..... you and I be saved! NOw that's comforting, no? AND ANOTHER: '...But there is only one solution. And what that is is surrender. But that's what I'm saying you should look twice. You don't own your life. This has been given to you for a specific purpose....' And what might the 'purpose' of my life be, oh lard? What's that you say? The 'purpose' is to buy you palatial living, many cars, boats, airplanes and jewelery for you and your wife? YES, oh YES, lard! I'll do it right away! You've shown me your divine plan! Now I actually KNOW something..... (like I didn't before!) I KNOW the lard's mind.... I KNOW the lard's desires.... I KNOW the lard cares about ME.... HAH, I KNOW the lard is a selfish pile of crap! Quite frankly, I find some of the stuff J Jones said to be quite a bit more coherent then this tripe.

Subject: Re: He sounds totally incoherent From: Parody To: New-Age Redneck Date Posted: Sat, Mar 09, 2002 at 15:45:22 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Well, if you see it that way, there it is, becasue, I mean, what is it? Incoherent? I think not. It's just the type of point I was trying to make before. People see something, and they say this and that, but what are they really saying? Do you know? Have you really listened? Because it's the heart, you know. It's the heart.

Subject: Sounds like it should be on EPO From: cq To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, Mar 08, 2002 at 14:45:13 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: November / December '77 Divine Times, page 17 you say Jim? Any chance of scanning it in for EPO? Or photocopying it for someone with less time to? ;)

Subject: Re: Sounds like it should be on EPO From: Jim To: cq Date Posted: Fri, Mar 08, 2002 at 14:55:39 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Why does it have to be photocopied? I think this excerpt should just go up as it is, perhaps under a doom and gloom heading. It's so obvious what M's doing, isn't it? Trying to isolate and frighten the hell out of everyone. The world sucks, ain't it the truth? Then along comes M, the saviour. He's got the relief you so badly need, the only trick is you have to surrender your life to him. But hey, that shouldn't be that big a problem. After all, it's not yours to begin with, right? So do it, go for it. Mind you, if you fall off the boad, don't forget you will drown. Have a nice day!

Subject: for the sake of perceived veracity ... From: cq To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, Mar 08, 2002 at 15:11:12 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ... not that I'm doubting your talents at trascribing verbatim, Jim. (though the odd typo sometimes gets through for all of us). There'd be no harm in scanning at least the title banner, would there? J-M has used this approach often, and to good effect, I think, if only to give credence to the authenticity of the article. After all, there are *some* so-called premies who like to suggest that *everything' on EPO is fabricated.

Subject: 'You don't own your life.' From: Disculta To: cq Date Posted: Fri, Mar 08, 2002 at 15:33:28 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Now ain't that just the nub of the whole deal!?

Subject: Dedication and Responsibility From: Pullaver To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 23:42:21 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I was watching this documentary the other day about this rock band that was trying to garner a following by touring across North America in a van with all their gear. Three sweaty guys, sleeping sometimes in the van, eating in fast-food joints, determined to visit most large and mid-size urban centers . Playing in places like Toledo, Ohio; Buffalo, New York. Music is their life and they are dedicated to getting out there and getting people to listen to them. Then I flashed on one of Dettmers' stories about Maharaji, about how one time actually enroute to a program on the east coast of the U.S. he caught the sniffles and ended up turning the plane around, cancelling the program, and heading off to the Bahamas or some similar spot for a vacation. It got me to thinking how when he does do programs he goes first class all the way. Flies his own Lear jet. Stays in the best hotels. Has people waiting on him hand and foot. Mistresses, cognac. Speaks for an hour or so and sits down for a sumptious meal. I thought about Maharaji blaming the instructors and organizers for getting it all wrong. I thought if Maharaji was so concerned about really getting it right he could have made the effort to actually visit the communities, at least a cross-section of them, to see how they were doing, back then. See for himself how programs were being handled, ashrams run, etc. I know that he had plenty of meetings with his organizers and instructors, what was he doing if not setting the course? But in the end he just ended up blaming the lot of them for screwing it all up. No one now is allowed to say anything about anything but himself. Feedback has been eliminated. Individuals thinking for themselves has been eliminated. Sounds like an Orwellian nightmare to me. What will happen now that Maharaji has no one to point the finger at except himself?

Subject: Bring it ON From: Francesca To: Pullaver Date Posted: Fri, Mar 08, 2002 at 14:13:11 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Pullaver, You said: What will happen now that Maharaji has no one to point the finger at except himself? I've been wondering the same thing. His own website, his own auto-knowledge DVDs. I have no doubt that he'll be able to think of something though. He'll probably just blame the 'users' of the 'product,' like he's been doing for years, and the premies have learned to do to each other and expremies. (Witness Richard II's post the other day implying that the only source of peace, light and love was his Master, and so if you left Richard II's Master and became a non-student, you were a bitter, broken soul who had never practiced the Master's meditation properly, or had stopped practicing properly, and surely had no access to your heart, to peace, to love, to light.) It will be interesting, of course. Let the contortions and distortions begin! But I think it will be the same old tune. You're either with me, or have gone over to the dark and joyless side, is Maharaji's message. --F

Subject: Bad Breath??? From: Pullaver To: Francesca Date Posted: Sat, Mar 09, 2002 at 18:50:16 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks Francesca for not leaving this post as a 'widow/orphan'. I guess if I expect to start a conversation on this Forum I'd be better off posting a story about some guy left to die in a windshield.|D

Subject: Someone say something about a windshield? From: Jim To: Pullaver Date Posted: Sat, Mar 09, 2002 at 20:44:24 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Sorry, I wouldn't have said anything here excpet I heard there was some talk about a guy in a windshield. But, no, you're just talking about the guru again, aren't you??

Subject: Gimme a Brake From: Pullaver To: Jim Date Posted: Sat, Mar 09, 2002 at 22:59:54 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Getting caught in your concepts is like getting caught in a windshield. The more you press your wiper fluid button the more your wiper blades get caught in someone's armpit. Maharaji couldn't have said it any better. My sincere apologies to the poor unfortunate victim.

Subject: Like Postie always says . . . From: Richard To: Pullaver Date Posted: Sat, Mar 09, 2002 at 23:47:08 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Sometimes you're the windshield, Sometimes you're the bug. Actually Mary Chapin Carpenter sings that song but I couldn't resist throwing in a bit of redneck philosophy. As for the miscreant who hit the guy and let him plead for his life, she should be publicly drawn and quartered. Or at the very least, be forced to watch the Atlanta Training video and Passages over and over again until she begs his family for forgiveness. And they get to ignore her.

Subject: Sometimes an apology isn't enough OT From: Jim To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 23:17:57 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Man Lives 2 Days Stuck In Windshield Hit-And-Run Victim Eventually Dies In Driver's Garage FORT WORTH, Texas -- A man who was the victim of a hit-and-run lived at least two days trapped in the driver's broken windshield before dying in the driver's garage in Fort Worth, Texas, police said. 'I'm going to have to come up with a new word. Indifferent isn't enough. Cruel isn't enough to say. Heartless? Inhumane? Maybe we've just redefined inhumanity here,' a prosecutor in Fort Worth told Fort Worth Star-Telegram about the October 2001 incident. Share Your Thoughts Is A Murder Charge Too Harsh? Police arrested a 25-year-old woman Wednesday -- a nurse's aide -- on murder charges in the man's hit-and-run death, according to the Telegram. Police told the Telegram that Gregory Biggs spent at least two days trapped in the broken windshield of the car that hit him. They said the woman who was driving the car, Chante Mallard, drove it home and kept it in the garage -- and heard Biggs begging for help before he finally died of blood loss and shock. According to a police statement, Mallard panicked, and with the man still lodged in the windshield, she drove a few miles to her home, parked in her garage, and ignored his pleas for help until he died. His body was later dumped in a park. The mother of the homeless man, Meredith Biggs, said she wonders how the woman could have let him die the way he did. Police said Mallard told them she had been drinking and was on drugs at the time she struck the man, and that she panicked. But Meredith Biggs told the newspaper that she wants to know why the woman didn't call for help after the drugs wore off. Mallard told police she occasionally went into the garage, apologizing to the victim. The impact had hurled him headfirst through the windshield, his broken legs sticking out onto the hood. Mallard's attorney said police are overreaching in charging her with murder.

Subject: Is a murder charge too harsh? From: Tonette To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, Mar 08, 2002 at 01:20:07 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You must of meant is a murder charge harsh enough. I agree with the prosecutor, he's going to have to invent a new word for the action and cruelity by this 'nurses aid.' Yikes! To associate the word 'nurse' in any way shape or form with this individual makes my skin crawl. I have to ask you Jim, as a defense attorney, would you be able to launch a defense for a person like this? Can you refuse clients? What would you do if you had to be her defense attorney? I'm curious. Tonette

Subject: Re: Is a murder charge too harsh? From: Jim To: Tonette Date Posted: Fri, Mar 08, 2002 at 14:07:01 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'd take the case and think of something. :) That's what we do. The system depends on it and it's a good system, maybe not the best but pretty good, all things considered.

Subject: Yes, and... From: Nigel To: Jim Date Posted: Sun, Mar 10, 2002 at 20:12:49 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Not wanting to put words in your mouth, Jim, but isn't the only way to guarantee justice for the innocent to provide the best possible defence for anybody charged with anything? That way the quality of evidence, for or against, is the only criterion for determining both culpability and punishment. Remember CW and others attacking you here for defending all sorts of bastards in court - ie. choosing to - whilst vilifying Jagdeo? (I am not sure they fully understand the principles by which justice operates.) Hmm, but would you defend Jagdeo, if he were to ask you? Now there's a question...

Subject: Asked and answered From: Jim To: Nigel Date Posted: Sun, Mar 10, 2002 at 21:00:06 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yes, Nige, you have to give it your all, or at least you're supposed to, in order to keep the system meaningfully tense. Justice depends on a vigorous interplay between prosecution and defence. That's the name of the game. I'm not the judge and neither is the prosecutor (although he or she gets to play that part a bit when they decide who to prosecute and for what). The system wouldn't work if we only took those roles seriously when we, defence counsel, happened to like or believe in our cases and clients. It's not a perfect system. In fact it's a bit weird, when you think of it. But it works, it's all we've got and I wasn't born wealthy. Nor did I ever have a cult to sponge off. Hell, I'm not even licenced as a personal trainer or motivational speaker! Would I defend Jagdeo? Are you kidding. And cross-examine my good friends Abi and Susan? Of course not. Big conflict of interest. Beside, it wouldn't be fair to any of the parties, would it? Sure wouldn't be fair to me. But, while we're talking, how much money does he have? You know, just asking. Doesn't hurt to ask. :) No, of course not!

Subject: To Jim: How far would you go? From: Nottm Bunny To: Jim Date Posted: Sat, Mar 09, 2002 at 11:56:38 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dear Jim You answered: I'd take the case and think of something. That's what we do. The system depends on it and it's a good system, maybe not the best but pretty good, all things considered. Imagine the following situation: Maharaji is in the dock, charged with responsibility for or collusion with the worst that has been shared on the forums. You, Jim, are given the brief to defend him and you are the only defence lawyer available (conflict of interest cannot apply as Marianne is the only other in the world and she is maxed out). Would you accept the brief? If so, how would you go about it? Regards, Bunny

Subject: No, of course not From: Jim To: Nottm Bunny Date Posted: Sat, Mar 09, 2002 at 12:13:48 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Defend M? Of course not. Conflict of interest, no?

Subject: That's what I thought From: Nottm Bunny To: Jim Date Posted: Sat, Mar 09, 2002 at 16:55:39 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: And of course the scenario was ridiculous. Does that mean: A) M has no right to a defence B) The system is not sacrosanct or, shock, horror, C) That I've got to cut out my stereotypical jokes about lawyers?!? Regards, Bunny

Subject: Re: That's what I thought From: Jim To: Nottm Bunny Date Posted: Sat, Mar 09, 2002 at 17:11:58 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: No, not at all. It just means that M would have to get another lawyer. This happens all the time. Just your basic conflict of interest, that's all. A lawyer generally can't or shouldn't act in a case where he's got some personal stake or involvement. There are exceptions but that's the general rule.

Subject: Re: That's what I thought From: Nottm Bunny To: Jim Date Posted: Sat, Mar 09, 2002 at 17:31:14 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jim, I understand about conflicts of interest. In the scenario I outlined, there were no other lawyers so it was you or no-one to defend him. I know it wasn't realistic, I just wondered in view of what you said. I'm sure there are cases you would not take on other principles either. I suppose it's as daft as when people ask me whether I would eat meat or starve if there was nothing else. Bunny (Eats nothing that had a pulse or a face)

Subject: Jim, I think Bunny was pulling yr leg From: Marianne To: Nottm Bunny Date Posted: Sat, Mar 09, 2002 at 21:16:33 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jim, Bunny is another one of those wily Brits who like to make jokes at the expense of us folks across the pond. Sometimes we just don't get their humor, which I think was the point of Bunny's original post. I think it's safe to say Captain Rawat would rather defend himself rather than have either James Heller, Esq. or Marianne Bachers, Esq., as his lawyer. Now Bunny, what's your favorite kind of green? Here's a pet to you, all 6,000 miles away. Fondly, Marianne

Subject: Marriane - I thought you were my friend! From: Nottm Bunny To: Marianne Date Posted: Sun, Mar 10, 2002 at 10:37:43 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: And now you are trying to get me into trouble with Jim! Jim - don't take any notice - my original question was quite serious, (ie just how far could your detachment go to uphold the system). Actually, I think Marianne is a little jealous that She wasn't offered the prestigeous (albeit fictional) brief first! Well, Marianne, would you have taken it or would you prefer to see M utterly defenceless? Lots of love Bunny

Subject: The only lawyer I trust is Quiet From: Jim To: Nottm Bunny Date Posted: Sun, Mar 10, 2002 at 15:39:34 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: and he's only a law student.

Subject: Will you still trust him when................ From: Nottm Bunny To: Jim Date Posted: Sun, Mar 10, 2002 at 16:54:07 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ......He's qualified? Reminds me of that saying: 'The only person to enter Parliament with honest intentions was Guy Fawkes'.

Subject: No, and that quote's hilarious! [nt] From: Jim To: Nottm Bunny Date Posted: Sun, Mar 10, 2002 at 17:36:52 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: How did that face get in? I did this: B). NT From: Nottm Bunny To: Nottm Bunny Date Posted: Sat, Mar 09, 2002 at 17:10:37 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Gerry, why can't I write B then ) ? NT From: Nottm Bunny To: Nottm Bunny Date Posted: Sat, Mar 09, 2002 at 17:12:53 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Hi Bunny From: gerry To: Nottm Bunny Date Posted: Sun, Mar 10, 2002 at 11:19:03 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Certain combinations create 'emoticons' those little faces you see. Unfortunately it means that sometimes they pop up when you don't want them. I'd turn that feature off but people seems to like them and it usually isn't a problem. Chuck Sprague has compiled a list at the site I've linked. Emoticons www.geocities.com/louella_parsnip/emoticons/emoticonsdir.htm

Subject: Thanks for the info Gerry NT From: Nottm Bunny To: gerry Date Posted: Sun, Mar 10, 2002 at 16:47:33 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: I respect that fact.. From: Tonette To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, Mar 08, 2002 at 21:07:49 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I respect the ability you bring to your profession and your belief in it. Yes, our legal system beats most others, the Salem Witch Trials come to mind and the justice handed out by governments akin to the Taliban are models not to be followed. I could not do what you do, however someone has to. I even have a hard time doing sometimes what my profession dictates. I guess this paints me as all too judgemental of my fellow humans. For instance, why transplant a liver into someone who knocked out their native liver with drugs and alcohol? Why not give the organ to the 30 yr. old mother of two young children who lost her liver to Hepatitis C via a blood transfusion 20 years earlier? Why transplant a heart into an IV drug abuser who burned out all his valves by doing drugs when you have a 33 year old guy who is dying from myopathy? Yes the system is better than many others. Definately better than what I would devise. Cutting off someone's hand for stealing is a bit much. Shooting a woman in the head for adultery is an example of a punishment which does not fit the crime. Without the checks and balances and rights granted by our legal system this would be exactly what society would stoop to. Take care, I hope you get to defend lots of innocent people in order to counter the truly guilty you defend. Tonette

Subject: Good answer From: Jerry To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, Mar 08, 2002 at 14:40:42 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Spoken like a true professional, Jim. Take the case and think about it. But I'm sure you'll understand that we amateurs are much more certain about what WE'D do and what SHOULD be done with her.

Subject: Plea of insanity From: PatC To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, Mar 08, 2002 at 14:21:41 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The woman sounds sociopathic. Spending the rest of her life in an asylum is better than the death penalty. She might have time to be treated and finally feel remorse and join the human race.

Subject: The woman HAS to be in denial - big time From: cq To: PatC Date Posted: Fri, Mar 08, 2002 at 14:49:55 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Scott (on AG, or is it SatChit?) sees her as being evil. An evil person could deliberately act this way, of course. But so could someone who desperately wanted to deny reality. Evil and illness are NOT the same, IMO. (for good or ill).

Subject: Evil -- meaningless term From: Joe To: cq Date Posted: Fri, Mar 08, 2002 at 14:59:01 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Labeling that woman 'evil' is such a meaningless, silly thing to say. It implies that she set out to do what she did just out of meanness, and enjoyed it, and I don't see anything in that news article to suggest that. She is probably very messed up mentally, that's for sure. Plus, I hope everyone keeps in mind how misleading many -- I think I would say most -- news articles are. You have to question how much of the whole story you are getting from one news article.

Subject: Evil -- not so meaningless term From: New-Age Redneck To: Joe Date Posted: Sat, Mar 09, 2002 at 13:26:49 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Joe, as they release more of her own statements, it appears that she and her knowing-cohorts were 'hate-filled, racist, killers.' Isn't that a reasonble definition for 'evil?' Out of her own mouth she referred to this guy as a 'white guy,' while giggling about the incident to her friend. That's not a hate crime? You 'could' make the point that anyone that kills another is 'crazy.' Certainly, to you and me, it would seem that way. But, where's the 'line' between civilized behavior and behavior that is so foul as to turn the stomach of any reasonable person? She, on many counts, crossed that line. If it were reversed and a 'white woman' did the same to a black homeless man.... we would RIGHTFULLY be yelling 'hate crime.' So why isn't anyone yelling that, now? Given her own words..... I think this oversight is despicable. That doesn't deserve the 'evil' moniker? Me-thinks, it does.

Subject: Re: Evil -- meaningless term From: Joe To: New-Age Redneck Date Posted: Mon, Mar 11, 2002 at 13:36:07 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: If she really is 'a hate-filled killer' (not sure how you know that, but if that's you conclusion), why don't you just say that? Why do you need to, and how does it help, to call her 'evil' as well? Again, I think the term is meaningless, or at best redundant, especially if you are labelling somebody that entirely on the basis of some news articles.

Subject: Why 'evil' is a meaningful term From: Jim To: Joe Date Posted: Mon, Mar 11, 2002 at 16:28:01 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Joe, I think the real value of 'evil' as a word is in how it indicates the moral aversion felt by the person using the word. Thus, it's more a reflection of the speaker's mind rather than any qualities of the person or thing being called 'evil'. But that's all useful communication, even if it says more about the speaker than his subject.

Subject: Fine, if it's used that way From: Joe To: Jim Date Posted: Mon, Mar 11, 2002 at 17:22:18 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thus, it's more a reflection of the speaker's mind rather than any qualities of the person or thing being called 'evil' But usually it isn't used that way at all, and it's not the way it was being used in this case. It would be one thing to say that what the person did (or the admittedly limited version of those events known only from a few press reports) conjures up 'evil' feelings inside of the speaker. But that's very different than labelling someone 'evil' like there is some kind of objective measure available and it's not, like you just said, something entirely subjective. In that sense, 'evil' is a meaningless, redundant term. But I'm not so sure I would agree that 'evil' is the same thing as a feeling of 'moral aversion.' You are using 'evil' as a feeling, but I don't think it has been traditionally used that way.

Subject: Simple failure to render aid? From: Jennifer To: Stonor Date Posted: Sat, Mar 09, 2002 at 10:52:39 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I disagree with one point in this article. Her defense said that this was a simple case of 'failure to stop and render aid.' If the guy was hit by someone else and she drove by and did not help, then yes this would be true. Since she is the one who actually hit him, took him home with her and then had a couple of days to do something to help, that statement sounds ridiculous.

Subject: I couldn't agree more, Joe (nt) From: cq To: Joe Date Posted: Fri, Mar 08, 2002 at 15:12:46 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I couldn't agree more, Joe (nt)

Subject: PS - only as far as this case is concerned From: cq To: cq Date Posted: Fri, Mar 08, 2002 at 15:17:35 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: PS - only as far as this case is concerned. When I read the headers to this thread, it appeared that I was agreeing that the word 'evil' was a meaningless term. What I meant to say was that I agreed with your assessment of the case - and that to call this woman 'evil' was at best pre-judgemental, and at worst - well, perhaps Scott should answer that.

Subject: Well, I should hope so. From: Joe To: cq Date Posted: Fri, Mar 08, 2002 at 17:46:28 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Chris, be sure everyone understands you aren't advocating for the belief in the non-existence of 'evil.' We can't have that, no way. :) One does wonder, however, how this woman could hit someone with her car, with that person smashing through her windshield, his legs planted on her front hood, and then she calmly drove home for several miles and parked in her garage, and then sauntered into her house, returning to the screaming man and periodically apologizing, and nobody, nobody saw or heard anything the least bit suspicious. What is missing from this picture? And if this woman 'dumped' the body in a park, how do they know anything else this woman said was true? Apparently nobody, save this crazy woman actually saw this guy impailed for 'two days' on the windshield of her car, in her garage. And yet the article is just so certain this all happened. And don't forget that she periodically apologized, and made a point of telling the authorities that. That's an important clue here that the authors didn't want to leave out, but somehow they never ask any of the other obvious questions. I think it pays to be skeptical, even before one gets to the silly and meaningless game, a la Sally Jessie Raphael, of whether this woman is 'evil' or just insane.

Subject: Re: Well, I should hope so. From: Jennifer To: Joe Date Posted: Sat, Mar 09, 2002 at 11:23:06 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Joe, It does seem kind of strange that no one saw her driving with the guy on her hood, but then again didn't this happen in middle of the night? Maybe there wasn't anyone on the street at that time or maybe the roads she were driving on were dark or secluded. I would think a coroner could confirm how long it took the guy to die, right? That part of her story should be fairly easy to prove true of false. If the guy was weak, losing blood and in shock, maybe his cries for help were not loud enough for her neighbors to hear, especially with the garage closed. People do terrible things in their homes all of the time and neighbors are non the wiser. They are investigating the possibility that other people were involved in this. What else do you think is missing from this picture?--you have me curious now!

Subject: Re: Is a murder charge too harsh? From: Jerry To: Tonette Date Posted: Fri, Mar 08, 2002 at 12:58:01 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Well, I don't know what Jim would do but I know what I'd do. I'd try to convince judge and jury that my client was OUT OF HER COTTON PICKIN' MIND!! Which she actually was. I think an insanity plea would be the route to go. I dont' think it would be too hard to convince a jury that this individual was too wacky (at least at the time) to understand the difference between right and wrong in her actions, that the duress of her experience sent her over the edge and she lost all scope of the right thing to do.

Subject: Only one problem though From: New-Age Redneck To: Jerry Date Posted: Sat, Mar 09, 2002 at 13:40:30 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jerry, if a person doesn't know right from wrong, why would they make a point apologizing? To apologize indicates a knowledge of right and wrong. Her own words prevent that defense. I hate bringing this up time and again, but while telling the story in front of 'witnesses,' she giggled about it while referring to the dead man as a 'white guy.' Maybe this is simply a hate-crime.... If the tables were turned, I'm CERTAIN that would be the case. If someone 'giggles' over the death of another, I would most definitely call that 'evil,' no? Jerry, you 'know' some of my background from many previous posts. I can tell you that I NEVER 'giggled' in wartime, not a single time. I take no glee in what I was required to do. Yet.... this woman did. I think there is a definite 'line,' and she hurled herself across it.

Subject: For Joe and Jerry From: Jennifer To: Jerry Date Posted: Sat, Mar 09, 2002 at 10:45:03 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'm not sure if this woman is insane, or if she has a personality disorder by where she is incredibly selfish and suffers from lack of empathy. My husband's cousin suffers from the latter, and she has been in and out of jail for drug and theft charges. She has always been held accountable by the courts for her actions, as a personality disorder is not technically considered 'insanity'. This woman I know is not insane, but I have few doubts that she would do the exact same thing the nurses aide did (according to the story we have anyway) if she were in the same situation. Having no psychological report on the nurse's aide, I can't say definitively whether or not she has a personality disorder. From the story I read, she does not have empathy, which is what makes me think this is a possibility. I do believe these types of discussions ARE important for people in society to have with one another. They help us define our own values and they help us to THINK about things that happen around us and make sense of things that seem senseless. These type of discussions also give us a chance to see a situation from the viewpoint of someone else, which is very important, in my opinion. It's perfectly fine to draw conclusions about what we think based on the information available to us, just as long as we remember that we don't have the whole story. Did that make any sense?

Subject: Not Diminished Capacity From: Murder, Depraved Indifference and To: Jennifer Date Posted: Sat, Mar 09, 2002 at 12:03:56 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The woman can be called *crazy*. The woman's attorney will try for a dim cap defense, based on drug use. Won't work. However *evil* she may appears, she still deserves a defense. That's how the legal system works in America. Otherwise she'd be lynched or burned at the stake. She probably isn't legally insane. Remember Laramie, Wyoming when the two townies killed the gay student by beating him and tying him to the fence post? He didn't die right away either. He was tied to the post for 18 hours when a bicyclist found him and he lived a few more days in the hospital. Shepard was his name. The townies were druggies too. They got life without parole. Punishment not treatment.

Subject: Matthew Shepard's parents -OT From: Marianne To: Murder, Depraved Indifference and Date Posted: Sat, Mar 09, 2002 at 21:22:05 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The reason that no one got the death penalty in the Shepard murder case is that Matthew Shepard's parents decided that their son would have wanted to be compassionate towards his killers in a way they weren't towards him. They convinced the prosecutor to drop death as a possible sentence in the case. I've just been talking about this issue over on SatChitChat Room. The Shepards belong to an organization called Murder Victims' Families for Reconcilation. It is made up of family members who have been touched by murder -- either through criminal conduct or state execution. These folks are all against the death penalty, and have forged bonds with each other. They travel around the world speaking out against the death penalty, and explain how family members from both sides of this horrible experience have come to know and love each other, and work together to put an end to the death penalty. What they have to say about this issue, because of personal experience, is far more compelling than any intellectual argument I can make. You can find them at www.mvfr.org Marianne

Subject: Believe in the Death Penalty [nt] From: That's Good, I don't To: Marianne Date Posted: Sun, Mar 10, 2002 at 16:09:41 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: Not Diminished Capacity From: Jennifer To: Murder, Depraved Indifference and Date Posted: Sat, Mar 09, 2002 at 15:45:25 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Whoever you are: You say she isn't probably legally insane. I agree. So far I haven't seen convincing proof that she is. My sister is a criminal defense attorney so I know a good bit about how the legal system in American works. I'm not sure why you are trying to convince me she deserves a defense. Of course I agree that she does! I haven't discussed the idea of evil, so I'm not sure why you addressed that particular part to me. I think the story in Wyoming is a little different from this one in that the townies premeditated that hate crime. This situation appears to have started out as an accident which later became a crime. Make sense?

Subject: Here, here!!!! From: New-Age Redneck To: Murder, Depraved Indifference and Date Posted: Sat, Mar 09, 2002 at 13:43:26 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Given this woman's own words, I think your 'example' is right on the target, too. This is a hate crime, plain and simple. It should be prosecuted that way!

Subject: please ignore nt From: test To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 22:25:52 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: xx

Subject: Any plausibility to Q's claim? From: Jim To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 19:57:51 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The infuriatingly enigmatic goofball poster who calls himself Quiet makes the following strange claim: I was approached by people, over three months ago now, about going back to the 'fold' so to speak. There is supposed to the meetings before Amaroo. I know other people who are in the areas of law, accountancy and information technology who had been approached. Other people, I also know, have not been approached. This is not a local occurrence, I know that happening at least three states. We Aussies move around a lot but we keep contact with our friends. To me, this seems ridiculous for several reasons. Mind you, the whole cult's ridiculous, then, isn't it? So could anyone who's more up to date on the inner workings comment? Is there any possible way this could be true, this bit about people like illiterate law students and other people in the fields Q mentions ever being 'approached' like that? I'm probably foolish for asking but, well, any ideas?

Subject: Re: Any plausibility to Q's claim? From: The Cat To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, Mar 08, 2002 at 01:08:36 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: OK, I'm goimg to stick my neck out on this one.You can choose to believe me or not.Q's claim to the contact he mentions is as you aptly described it RIDICULOUS! The team here is just not that organised and frankly,not that pushy. He may well be confusing a few well meaning people's personal efforts with some kind of zealot push. It's pretty simple.You like? - you stay.You dont like? - goodbye.. I have my own opinion and I'm afraid Q wouldn't like it. There are no meetings.There is no agenda.Any-omn involved has known what they are doing for some time. Q's perspective is fascinating to say the least. You could find yourselves chasing foxes down the burrows.....And as you seem to be aware I am in a position to know what's going on.. Sorry Q but you simply can't shine shit.. The Cat

Subject: Re: Any plausibility to Q's claim? From: Livia To: The Cat Date Posted: Fri, Mar 08, 2002 at 08:28:46 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Delusions of grandeur plus a large dollop of self-promotion, laced with lashings of irrelevance. 'Q' is a pain. It's so nice here without him. With love, Livia

Subject: I read it rong ... From: Opie To: Livia Date Posted: Fri, Mar 08, 2002 at 09:07:04 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Delusions of grandeur plus a large dollop of self-promotion, laced with lashings of irrelevance Sheesh Livia, for a minute I thought you were referring to the masterful Malibu guru of the halls! LOL OP

Subject: Re: I read it rong ... From: Livia To: Opie Date Posted: Fri, Mar 08, 2002 at 10:16:18 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Well, he could have learnt it at the master's feet, I suppose... Love, Livia

Subject: Feet Fetish From: Opie To: Livia Date Posted: Fri, Mar 08, 2002 at 12:20:03 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: at the master's feet Now that was a phrase that had us all spellbound for ages! At first it had theological, allegorical and mythological connotations. This became physical - pity I could never afford the big bucks that were required to sit at or near the front row! warmly OP

Subject: Re: Feet Fetish From: Livia To: Opie Date Posted: Fri, Mar 08, 2002 at 15:51:38 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: At the master's feet is a great place for people with pathological low self-esteem. Feels just right! Lots of love, Livia, slightly drunk on a Friday evening in England

Subject: Re: Feet Fetish, booze and Jazz ... From: Opie To: Livia Date Posted: Fri, Mar 08, 2002 at 18:12:15 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ....slightly drunk on a Friday evening in England ditto England as well - but what the hell lets be a bit more precise - London, but no way thinking of feet! LoL And lots of love back to you .... OP

Subject: Re: Feet Fetish, booze and Jazz ... From: Livia To: Opie Date Posted: Sat, Mar 09, 2002 at 14:06:23 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: And when did you exit then? What did it for you? Love, Livia

Subject: Re: Feet Fetish, booze and Jazz ... From: Opie To: Livia Date Posted: Sat, Mar 09, 2002 at 18:56:31 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dear Livia Approximately 18 months ago. The clear evidence of how Marahaji was actively involved in using mindf**k techniques in dealing with people that he blamed when things went wrong. Up to that point had known, via EPO, about all the other stuff but somehow managed to rationlise that as having no bearing. warmly OP

Subject: Re: Feet Fetish, booze and Jazz ... From: Livia To: Opie Date Posted: Mon, Mar 11, 2002 at 09:40:21 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Cheers Opie. And btw how long were you a premie? (Sorry, I'm just incorrigibly nosey by nature) I received K in '72. Love, Liv

Subject: Re: Feet Fetish, booze and Jazz ... From: opie To: Livia Date Posted: Mon, Mar 11, 2002 at 11:29:12 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Sheesh Livia It was just by chance I had a look at this message thread which is now buried so far below. Happy to discuss off line if you wish. opie6121@yahoo.com much love

Subject: bullshit From: St. Piligram To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 19:54:19 (EST) Email Address: St Piligram@hotmail.com Message: Now that I've had a chance to read this I can say almost all of your facts are wrong and you need some psychological help.

Subject: It's just food for your mind, SP. From: Richard To: St. Piligram Date Posted: Sat, Mar 09, 2002 at 00:35:55 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: In 1976 when Bob Mishler decided M was not to be revered, he and others responsible directly to M, quietly left their service. As an ashram premie, who had moved into the ashram initially because of Mishler's impassioned talk in Atlanta in 1973, I felt it my responsibility to find out why he and others close to M were leaving. So I asked one who I knew could provide the answers. His comment was simply 'You don't want to know, it's just food for your mind'. His comment became a Zen Koan over the years. It was an act of both kindness and a challenge on his part. Kind because he knew I was still enchanted with M&K. A challenge to my intellect because he knew I had one. At the time I chose to not pursue it because I really didn't want to know. Over 20 years later, the truth was waiting for me in the words of the late Bob Mishler and the words of others who have stepped forward to tell their stories. So to you, Saint Piligram (Pilgrim?), and anyone else who thinks EPO's facts are wrong and we need pschological help, I have something quite simple to say. It's just food for your mind and it's your choice to feed your mind or let it starve.

Subject: I respect that fact.. From: Tonette To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, Mar 08, 2002 at 21:07:49 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I respect the ability you bring to your profession and your belief in it. Yes, our legal system beats most others, the Salem Witch Trials come to mind and the justice handed out by governments akin to the Taliban are models not to be followed. I could not do what you do, however someone has to. I even have a hard time doing sometimes what my profession dictates. I guess this paints me as all too judgemental of my fellow humans. For instance, why transplant a liver into someone who knocked out their native liver with drugs and alcohol? Why not give the organ to the 30 yr. old mother of two young children who lost her liver to Hepatitis C via a blood transfusion 20 years earlier? Why transplant a heart into an IV drug abuser who burned out all his valves by doing drugs when you have a 33 year old guy who is dying from myopathy? Yes the system is better than many others. Definately better than what I would devise. Cutting off someone's hand for stealing is a bit much. Shooting a woman in the head for adultery is an example of a punishment which does not fit the crime. Without the checks and balances and rights granted by our legal system this would be exactly what society would stoop to. Take care, I hope you get to defend lots of innocent people in order to counter the truly guilty you defend. Tonette

Subject: You can say?? From: a fly on the wall To: St. Piligram Date Posted: Fri, Mar 08, 2002 at 14:22:47 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You said: Now that I've had a chance to read this I can say almost all of your facts are wrong and you need some psychological help. Big whoop. You haven't said anything. If it's ex-premie.org you're referring to, unless you can point-by-point prove any of the facts wrong and come up with some evidence, I'm sorry you're upset after reading EPO and hope you can calm down and be objective. If you're talking about what people are saying here, you need to read EPO. This is just a bulletin board, and factual materials are on EPO. Unless you can discuss this intelligently, you're a great example of the peace and love your Master has taught you, and you might want to reflect on that. buzz Ex-premie.org www.ex-premie.org

Subject: Re: bullshit From: Livia To: St. Piligram Date Posted: Fri, Mar 08, 2002 at 10:40:41 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: If you're talking about ex-premie.org, my reaction on first reading it about 2 years ago was: 'my God, what's wrong with these people!' I thought they were all well and truly 'in their minds' and in the business of scandal mongering, bitching, carping, you name it. I read it once and then didn't go back there. Two years later I got online at home and had another look. This time, something about some of the impassioned writing gave me pause for thought. (Aaargh! The dreaded word! Thought!!!) Actually, what made me think again was reading Bob Mishler's interview. I remember reading this when it was first published in the 70's, and being horrified. I decided he was a 'manmat' (remember that word?) and dismissed him completely. I was too much in thrall to Maharaji to even want to consider for a moment the veracity of anything he was saying. This time when I read it, it was as if the scales fell from my eyes. The man made perfect sense. He came across as intelligent and clear. Back then I just couldn't see it. I then read Mike Dettmers, Mike Donner and then the facts about x-rating. About Jagdeo. And then I thought long and hard about Jagdeo, and Maharaji's total lack of any response whatsoever to any of Jagdeo's child victims. And the fact that Jagdeo is still out there, touring. And I thought about how actions speak louder than words, and about love and compassion. I read about Maharaji's affairs too, and I could hear my premie voice saying 'but what does any of this matter?' And then I looked at myself and saw how far I had left my discrimination behind when it came to evaluating Maharaji and his actions. And I wondered about this, and wondered and wondered. You should wonder about all of this too, St Piligram, if you have any genuine integrity left in you. Mine had been severely compromised after 30 years, and I am only just beginning to see how much. Why were these x-rated activities deliberately kept from us? Why has Jagdeo been allowed to continue? Why does Maharaji drink so much cognac, according to the reports of countless premies who spent time with him? Why after 30 years of doing what he asks in all sincerity are premies not considered equipped to talk freely about the Knowledge to interested comers? Think about these questions, come up with some answers and I'll tell you who needs the psychological help maybe. With regards, Livia

Subject: explain please NT From: Salsa To: St. Piligram Date Posted: Fri, Mar 08, 2002 at 10:24:33 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: nt

Subject: Re: bullshit From: Sir Dave To: St. Piligram Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 20:16:08 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Fine. Which facts are wrong? Maharaji's excessive drinking, smoking, drug taking, procuring of premie women for one night stands? Maharaji's inability to stop Jagdeo from sexually abusing children or Maharaji's failure to bring Jagdeo to justice or help the victims of said abuse? I mean, you should be more explicit if you refute what people say, otherwise your words are meaningless.

Subject: IT MUST BE From: silvia To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Fri, Mar 08, 2002 at 10:23:49 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: the hit and run accident when m killed a person and a premie took the blame. Or is Michael lying? Growing up is painful sometimes...

Subject: St Piligram: A Troll Post From: gerry To: silvia Date Posted: Fri, Mar 08, 2002 at 16:31:00 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: This post 'bullshit' is a classic troll. What these trolls don't realize is every time they post here, they provide fodder for the gristmill. Every bad point about Maharajism is reiterated and repeated. It helps bring new readers up to speed. Gawd bless the Trolls!

Subject: Another Troll post From: A Troll To: gerry Date Posted: Fri, Mar 08, 2002 at 19:33:24 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi! Ima Troll ! :)

Subject: Oy, this guru is not a mensch. Discuss From: Pullaver To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 16:19:03 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Down below Livia talks about how local programs have been deader than a door-knob without the spontanaiety of pwks speaking. Maharaji's videos/DVDs/satellite transmissions have been doing all the talking about the possibility (sick) of knowledge for what, the last 10 years or so. His followers of thirty years apparently haven't got a clue. Quite the indictment. In m's supreme arrogance he thinks that the reason propogation has dried up in the west is because of pwk's concepts. Nothing to do with his use 'em, then lose 'em approach to his servants. Nothing to do with the regal opulence he has grown so accustomed. Nothing to do with the never-ending funding missions for M's latest whatever. Nothing to do with the facts on EPO. Although I haven't seen the Atlanta Training video yet I read Joe's account of it here. I read John MacGregor's account of the training sessions at Amaroo and CrisP's account of the local KITS. I feel that these corporate trainings with their emphasis on team-work, synchronous synergies, suppressing individualism and (god knows) linguistic profiling, might work well in the manufacture of widgets but in terms of presenting knowledge, the only purpose it is probably serving is that no one thinks for themselves and/or questions the master. In other words, the corporate trainings are the new-fangled way for Maharaji to control and exact obedience from his followers. Corporate training in the wrong hands becomes a sinister form of manipulation and mind control. Discuss amongst yourselves.

Subject: Re: Oy, this guru is not a mensch. Discuss From: Dep To: Pullaver Date Posted: Fri, Mar 08, 2002 at 12:30:58 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Does the Master have to be a mensch? I keep thinking about that post 'To the good Deputy' from Richard II in which he raised the possibility that 'the accusations against Maharaji -- true or false -- have no relevance concerning Maharaji as a Master.' Richard II also said, 'To a student of life what matters is knowing. Knowing what? To feel what has no beginning or end. To be aware of the timeless. Now, does knowing truth, reality, etc. have any value from an absolute point of view? So assume for a moment what has been said of the Master -- that his only role in life is to impart to students the ability to know truth, reality, whatever. How special would that make this person in the scheme of things? I think the answer to that is pretty clear. To students who value knowing these things, the Master’s value is priceless. If he fits our model for a leader we can still find a place for him in our lives, for a while. If he does not meet our expectations, hey, you got no choice but to walk. What if the accusations are true, but Maharaji is still in fact the true Master?' So, does the Master have to be a nice guy? Why should our standards apply? I mean look at Jesus. - he hung out with publicans, and sinners, - his mother didn’t recognise him as the Master, - he attended parties where wine was served so was probably not a teetotaller, - his best women friend was a hooker, - he went into a rage at a temple and overturned tables, - he used an expensive balm for his feet that would have fed a family for a year, - there are some who even say he might have even been bisexual, r.e. references to the 'disciple Jesus loved' and verses like John 20 and John 13:23 – 'Now there was leaning on Jesus’s bosom one of his disciples, whom Jesus loved.' - he made all kind of outrageous claims about himself that angered people. So does a Master have to be a nice guy? Interesting point. Maybe his showing us the 'timeless' is all that matters and our morals and values are irrelevant. Hey, just playing the devil’s advocate for a minute. And you did ask us to discuss. IMO Richard II did bring up an interesting point, one I had not considered.

Subject: Re: Oy, this guru is not a mensch. Discuss From: Livia To: Dep Date Posted: Sat, Mar 09, 2002 at 15:26:36 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Another way of looking at it was that Jesus wasn't a Master either, but just a master. Our concepts about Jesus are even more deeply engrained than our concepts about Maharaji were. Hence, Maharaji, feet of clay, Jesus, feet of clay. Maybe there's never been a master with a capital M. Maybe there's no such thing. Love, Livia just playing devil's advocate too - or not?

Subject: I'm having a flashback From: Francesca :~) To: Dep Date Posted: Fri, Mar 08, 2002 at 17:18:59 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Is it 1973? or 1977? or is it 1981? Purple haze? Dog, you said: So, does the Master have to be a nice guy? Why should our standards apply? Dear Dog, this is Premie 101. Premies (myself included in my own day) have been rationalizing Maharaji's behavior since he first hit the West, and saying things like you've just said. Funny that my gut reaction in 1972 was that the whole thing was a scam, with a little meditation on the side. This is the same circular discussion that goes on over and over again on this Forum (and anywhere where there are premies or expremies) about the information on EPO. In fact, it's the core reason why premies can ignore what is on EPO and still call M their Master. So it looks like you are coming full circle here. What the heck is a Master any way? And who needs one in order to feel peace, love, happiness or just simply to live their life? --f

Subject: Good post, Dog From: Jim To: Dep Date Posted: Fri, Mar 08, 2002 at 14:41:05 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: That was a really good post. I never thought of that. I mean, like the satsang of M's I just posted above, Jesus had a donkey, don't forget. Great points, Dog. It's good to see you thinking so clearly now. It's soooooooo much different than before you 'became an ex'. LOL!

Subject: Thanks, Jim From: Dep To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, Mar 08, 2002 at 15:00:55 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: That was a really good post. I never thought of that. I mean, like the satsang of M's I just posted above, Jesus had a donkey, don't forget. Great points, Dog. It's good to see you thinking so clearly now. It's soooooooo much different than before you 'became an ex'. LOL! --- When you scroll up to the home page of Forum VI you will see the following: This forum focuses on issues directly related to our association with Maharaji and his organization, Elan Vital (formerly Divine Light Mission.) It is intended as a forum for rational and civil discussion for as wide a variety and number of people as possible. I was responding to a question Pullaver raised about morals and if they have anything to do with teaching meditation. I'm glaaaaad you liked the post. I'm now thinking of posting some piece of shit about a woman who hit a guy with her car and let him die on her windshield in her garage. Stay tuned! NLOL

Subject: Reposting Dep Dog: 3/5/2002 From: Pullaver To: Dep Date Posted: Fri, Mar 08, 2002 at 22:42:26 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Excellent post Richard II. You raise a very interesting point that I quite frankly had not considered. What if the accusations are true, but Maharaji is still in fact the true Master? Hmmmmmmm. Sheeeeeeesh! What a question! A few nights ago my wife told me that she doesn’t mind what I feel about Maharaji as long as I 'strive to be like a lotus.' I think this is excellent advice. Is that a good enough answer? I think I can be a student of life without being a student of Maharaji. Suppose I accept your premise that the Master’s only role in life is to impart to students the ability to know truth, reality, whatever. Shouldn’t he also teach us by example, and not simply by imparting meditation techniques? Shouldn’t he have to work a little bit to earn our respect and admiration as well? And how can I tell my friends about this man. 'Here take this video. Maharaji will show you how to go inside and contact the truth. Oh and by the way, he also drinks excessively, smokes like a chimney, runs around on his wife, killed a guy with his car and had someone else take the blame, continually asks for money to spread Knowledge but uses this money to live an obscenely extravagant lifestyle . . . etc.' How special is that? How many students is this Master going to have? If anything, having a lousy reputation is bad for business. He should know that. And what if the allegations have no relevance concerning Maharaji as Master? Well IMO character is important even for a true Master. I simply can’t take advice from a person who says one thing and does another. Some might even call this type of behaviour hypocritical. It makes me feel uncomfortable. But if Maharaji decides to come clean with his followers, who knows, I might even consider returning (I said consider). After EPO, however, I definitely find it difficult to look at Maharaji as I did before. Sorry Richard II. See I’m a simple 'walk your talk - practice what you preach' kinda guy. And if the accusations -- true or false -- have no relevance concerning Maharaji as a Master, that would mean I would have to devalue my values and lower my standards. I don't feel like doing that. I have weighed the stories on EPO and their relevance to my personal first hand experience and I have done what feels right for me. Something has changed. I no longer feel the same way. I have walked, not from Knowledge, but from Maharaji. When I meditate I want emptiness, spaciousness, the void. I have had enough controversial thoughts about Maharaji in my head. If anything, he is now getting in the way. So I now consider myself a post-premie (to use a phrase coined by Mark Appleman). From now on it’s just between me and God. The worst thing that can happen to me is that I don’t go to any more programs. Fine, I can live with that. The past is dead and gone, we can’t bring it back, and we can’t change it. And if it’s any consolation to you, I’m not going to spend my time attacking Maharaji on Forum VII. When we hate someone we give that person power over us, power over our sleep, our blood pressure, our digestion, our ability to appreciate the beauty of life. Our hate does not hurt them at all. And I’m sure Maharaji doesn’t give a shit about what people are saying about him here. He has enough money and doesn’t care. So unlike some exes, I’m just going to move on. Forgive and forget, live and let live, all those tried and true clichés. What you resist is what you get. If there is such a thing as karma (and I chose to think there is) Maharaji will get what’s coming to him, as will we all. God is in control. I don’t have to worry. If anything, I’m sorry for Maharaji. He must feel incredibly lonely and isolated. I also choose to believe that everything happens for a reason and a purpose and it serves us. So instead of fussing and fretting about this predicament, I asked myself, 'What I can get out of this that will serve me? How can I turn this lemon into lemonade?' Well, I can thank Maharaji for finally turning me to Buddhist practice. The emptiness and cleanliness of Theravada and Zen Buddhism has always been more suited to my temperament than bhakti yoga. I also feel safer and more confident when I practice vipassana because no fallible human personalities are getting in the way. In closing, let me say to all exes that we pay an exorbitant price for our grudges and bitterness. We pay for it with our life, our peace of mind, and our health. So I for one am not going to squander my life resenting Maharaji and trying to get even. And I’ve had enough of all this controversy and 'what if, what if . . .' I just want to meditate and feel peaceful. So I’m moving on. And with the time I have left, I’m going to do my best to be happy and successful and to live a golden life. I might even take a shot at being like a lotus.

Subject: You missed the word 'rational' From: Jim To: Dep Date Posted: Fri, Mar 08, 2002 at 15:32:46 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yes, Dog, R2, and now you, are civil enough. But is that argument rational? I think not. There's nothing rational about the hypothesis that some supposed 'master' can reveal the secret of live, love and all that crap and bury his opponents in cement, for example. That's just plain absurd and yet that's the argument R2's making and you're stadning up for. No, Dog, that's not rational and is not respectworthy. Not to me, anyway. Maybe others disagree and think this is a completely reasonable issue to ponder. To me, it's beyond the pale.

Subject: Personal Decision From: Joe To: Dep Date Posted: Fri, Mar 08, 2002 at 13:56:24 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I think everyone needs to decide for themselves whether it's relevent or not. I mean, I think it's obvious that the kind of person Maharaji is, his current lying and revisionism, is extremely relevent to deciding if he is worthy of being one's 'master.' I personally can't imagine how it couldn't be relevent. We also have to keep in mind cult programming, which makes it almost impossible to look objectively at the cult leader, so I would take a premie saying that it's "irrelevent" with a huge grain of salt. But the bottom line is that everyone, premie, ex-premie, aspirant, general public, has the right to KNOW about the kind of person Maharaji is, because Maharaji, himself, has tried very hard to keep the truth about him a secret, and puts out a false picture of who he is. Plus, the fact that he lies about his past, and blames others for what he, himself, did are significant things for people to know, even if Richard 2 chooses not to care.

Subject: Re: Personal Decision From: Dep To: Joe Date Posted: Fri, Mar 08, 2002 at 19:05:56 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: Oy, this guru is not a mensch. Discuss From: McDuck To: Pullaver Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 20:06:29 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: In my opinion, the corporate training model fits in better with Mr Rawat's worldview than the earlier Hindu devotional model, though hanging on to 'the perfection of the master' helps keep his position as CEO inviolate and unquestioned. He has been influenced by the models of 'success' of corporate America, and the pathological perfectionism has been reinforced by the rigorous demands of flying a plane. He even writes a list of the toiletries to take with him, fer christ's sake. He has expressed his admiration for the efficiency of the Coca-Cola corporate model, and Japanese workers laying cable at breakneck speed. There is obviously something to be said for the 'synchronisation' achieved by Japanese gangs and Coca-Cola, but examination of the philosophy behind the effort doesn't seem to come into play in Mr Rawat's model. Having allegedly dispensed with the Hindu training, which doesn't fit the corporate model, the Hippies which first adopted it in the West had to go, too. He has described the Hippies as 'incredibly irresponsible', no matter it was they who arose from their psychotropic stupor to spread the good word and organise the first infrastructure. So it's a training model, in which everyone is dispensable (you give your individuality to the team, after all), fuelled by generalisations. Actually, it's probably an ad hoc scat jazz training model, informed by the law of the jungle. When Dr Pascotto has outlived his usefulness, some strange new flower will rise from the undergrowth to replace him. Whatever gets you through the night…

Subject: Maharaji's 'world view' :) From: Joe To: McDuck Date Posted: Fri, Mar 08, 2002 at 13:34:08 (EST) Email Address: kevjo@mindspring.com Message: It makes me laugh even to think of Maharaji having any kind of a 'world view' except that whatever it is, it involves himself as the center of it. He has been influenced by the models of 'success' of corporate America, and the pathological perfectionism has been reinforced by the rigorous demands of flying a plane. He even writes a list of the toiletries to take with him, fer christ's sake I think for Maharaji this has mainly come from watching lots of television, and an extremely superficial view of those kinds of 'corporate' and 'working' models that he gets from reading magazines and talking to corporate-type premies, or more likely corporate-type premie wannabes. Maharaji's exposure to the world is so abnormal, so insulated, so, again, superficial, that everything is theory. Maharaji has never had to run a profit-making organization because he always fell back on 'donations' from premies which he either spent on himself, or largely otherwise wasted on his latest whimsical idea of what might work in regard to propagation. There have been many of these, all failures, for which he takes none of the blame. He has also been able to rely on lots of free, slave labor of those same premies. The thing about Coca-Cola is that it has to constantly demonstrate that it is ever more successful, making a profit (more return per stock share), holding on to market share from the ever-encroaching Pepsi Cola, always striving for greater efficiency, etc. Maharaji doesn't do that, doesn't have the skills to do that, and could not have possibly learned that from the kind of bizarre, worshipped, unaccountable life he has lived. He also has not had to deal with an actual workforce, or even management, because the essential element for those around him is devotion, not other forms of success, and when that fails, he just disposes of people and replaces them with the next victim. It might be, however, that he is running out of replacements these days. He also doesn't practice any of the "corporate America" principles, in which management is ultimately responsible and heads roll for failures, or even insufficient success. Those principles never touch the Maharaji cult world, at least for Maharaji himself. If any of those principles really applied to Maharaji, he would have been fired a long time ago for extreme incompetence, lying, and general foolishness. What's ironic about Maharaji's disdain of hippies as 'incredibly irresponsible,' is that he always has to return to relying on the hard-core group of aging hippies and their acceptance of Maharaji's extreme incompetence, contradictory statements and actions, etc., to keep himself in the material finery that his whole 'worldview' is all about at its core. Oh, yeah. From what I understand Maharaji has always been extremely anal and compulsive about some things. It's likely he took that to all of his endeavers including piloting, probably courtesy of Mata Ji or whoever toilet trained him, rather having learned in in the course of learning to fly.

Subject: Excellent! (nt) From: Pullaver To: Joe Date Posted: Mon, Mar 11, 2002 at 09:00:02 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Gallowey connection From: Coca-Cola and the To: Joe Date Posted: Fri, Mar 08, 2002 at 16:49:54 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: M's knowledge of Coca-Cola (and model of corporate training) comes from Tim Galloway. Coca-Cola has been a long-time client of Tim's. He's trained Coca-Cola. When instructors were laid off (last round in '80's) Tim got many of them involved in training at Coca-Cola, including Loring Baker and Joan Apter. All the instructors Tim introduced to Coca-Cola were brought on as trainers BUT Rosi Lee.

Subject: It's "Gallwey" (nt) From: Spell Check To: Coca-Cola and the Date Posted: Sat, Mar 09, 2002 at 12:43:14 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: nt

Subject: Re: Gallowey connection From: Pullaver To: Coca-Cola and the Date Posted: Fri, Mar 08, 2002 at 22:30:14 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Well I kind of guessed that Maharaji was looking towards Galwey or other premies in the corporate training field in terms of coming up with the KITS model. ChrisP told me that this training became the final drip for her. Complete acquiescence to group-think - individuals forced into a tightly scripted mold. But, no matter how many efficiency programs they put in place premies will still be made to wait an hour and a half to get in and the speaker will still be a spoiled and greedy charlatan.

Subject: Re: Oy, this guru is not a mensch. Discuss From: Livia To: McDuck Date Posted: Fri, Mar 08, 2002 at 05:57:28 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Sorry to state the obvious, but I had to take a deep gulp when reading above that Maharaji thought the hippies were 'incredibly irresponsible'. If responsibility is such an important ethic for him, what about the Jagdeo issue, which will NEVER, EVER go away unless he deals with it, and which will ultimately play an enormous part in his downfall. But then Maharaji was never one for practicing what he preached - in more ways than one. With love, Livia

Subject: CyberMeister From: Pullaver To: McDuck Date Posted: Fri, Mar 08, 2002 at 01:43:20 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yeah, I gather M is big on 'efficiency'. He likes to flatter himself that he is CEO of Rawat Inc. Conveniently forgetting that he obtained his obscene wealth on the backs of slave labour and continued emotional extortion not because of some slick e-Knowledge. When he said that he has come with more power than ever before we just didn't know he meant that in terms of his digital interface. I was surprised that Moody Blues song opened up the Passages video but I guess one of his fart-catchers hasn't completely forgotten just who has been buttering his bread these last 30 years. Talk about manipulation. The funny part is that he hopes to attract a new generation of seekers (suckers?) with this model, but it's still the old hippy generation that is smart-carding their way into programs. There's a parable in here somewhere - something about pouring old wine into new wineskins.

Subject: Has anyone heard from Brian S? From: gErRy To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 16:05:26 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I didn't want to have to make this public but you remember that night a couple of weeks ago when brian and I were in SF? Well, that seems to be the last anyone has heard from him. Brian was last seen on Castro street, dressed in a pin stripe suit with white knit shirt and wearing orange alligator boots, walking arm-in-arm with a tall dark skinned man in a long leather coat. Brian, if you're lurking, please call home. It's OK man, really, it is...

Subject: yep From: an email friend To: gErRy Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 22:56:41 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dear gerry, according to my email friends, Brian is hanging in there, but he's physically ill and undergoing treatment for his liver problems. Those who give any credence whatsoever to the extensive medical studies of the Harvard University Medical School and other leading medical schools and research institutions [regarding the power of non-sectarian sincere prayers (and even agnostic positive affirmations) - both verbal and silent], might consider doing so for those people who are currently having a very difficult time right now, medically. btw, I also heard from suchabanana briefly recently, who has been going to the hospital for treatment for his heart and arteries and some major skeletal problems. (Dealing with the cumulative shock of the maharaji cult betrayals, and on behalf of others, also wore him down considerably and affected his health very badly.) Please, let's remember Steve Quint and Cynthia, too, in our thoughts and best wishes. Thanks, one and all.

Subject: Kelly and George too From: Marianne To: an email friend Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 23:06:13 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: When sending good wishes and healing thoughts for people, please also include Kelly's husband, George, who is quite ill with cancer. Marianne

Subject: that's Right From: gerry To: Marianne Date Posted: Fri, Mar 08, 2002 at 10:02:03 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Anyone who knows me in person realizes I can say or do almost nothing with a straight face. I've been in close contact with Brian and last spoke to him by telephone on Thursday. Thanks to my email friend for saying the hard part. Brian is undergoing a chemo therapy of sorts and it's very difficult as you can imagine. Although he might not respond immediately, Brian would like to hear from anyone who feels like e-mailing him at: bgsmith@teleport.com Jokes are especially appreciated. The guy has more gumbo in his little finger the gooroo has in his whole god-in-a-bod. There he was with the equivalent of the worst flu you can imagine, cracking ME up and making ME laugh. I think I feel worse for him than he does himself! I didn't know the extent of Such's health problems and I join my email friend in wishing him a speedy recovery and best wishes. I miss the li'l swami and look foward to his return. My thoughts are with Kelly and George also. Thanks Marianne for that information. What's beautiful about our little cyber community here is we are once again united to share our lives, our joys and our sorrows. How utterly human and how utterly wonderful.

Subject: Good wishes to all From: Richard To: gerry Date Posted: Fri, Mar 08, 2002 at 21:57:55 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: What's beautiful about our little cyber community here is we are once again united to share our lives, our joys and our sorrows. How utterly human and how utterly wonderful. Yes, and that keeps me coming back for more. All the best to our fellow travellers Brian, Kelley, George, Such, Steve and Cynthia. And anyone else who feels a bit of pain tonight. Love to you all.

Subject: Thank You From: Steve To: Richard Date Posted: Wed, Mar 13, 2002 at 17:32:01 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Your prayers are very much appreciated. Steve

Subject: The Story Never Ends From: Steve Quint To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 15:58:07 (EST) Email Address: the_avenger55@hotmail.com Message: I've been in a psychiatric hospital for the last three months. The program with charanand last fall was the event that led to my breakdown last November, but I also did too much crack cocaine last year. This morning I was looking at the two 'learn Hindi' books that I got out of the library last week. One guy in the smoking room of my word ask me to say something in Hindi and I coudn't say very much - told him about the Hindi videos I used to go to. He said 'Jai Sat Chit Anand'. Received knowledge from Mattias in 1979 and hasn't been to any satsang program in 22 years but still practices the four techniques to this day. Opposite to me - who regrets going to a program last November but hasn't practiced the four techniques in 23 years when they drove me to serious psychosis. The fellow's name is Jimmy Larocque from Ottawa and remembers Jimmy Heller. Hope these stories help someone in some way. I'm going in for hernia surgery tomorrow - please send me your prayers and blessings. With gratitude and love, Steve Quint

Subject: Hernia surgery, should be a piece of cake From: Tonette To: Steve Quint Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 23:11:15 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'll be thinking of you. Hernia surgery is quite straight forward and not a difficult procedure. You should do just fine but I know that any surgery is a little scary. Just think of all the great drugs you'll get. And speaking of drugs, mixing crack with any sort of mental illness is like mixing nitro glycerine in a blender. Stay the hell away from that stuff. All of it. Pot included. I hope now you know better when making choices on how to treat yourself. Crack makes everyone nuts and unbalanced. Geez. I'm glad to see you are getting the help you need. Healing from a breakdown can be a long involved process but when you come out the other end the srides one makes from the ordeal can last a lifetime. I'll be thinking of you, Take care and hang in there, Warmly, Tonette

Subject: All the best with your surgery From: Richard To: Steve Quint Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 21:43:53 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Steve, I wish you the very best with both your physical and psychological healing. From what I've read from you so far, you appear to have the strength and resolve required to heal completely.

Subject: All the best with your surgery, Steve [nt] From: PatC To: Richard Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 22:05:45 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: March 2002 Scheduled From: Sulla To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 14:56:34 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Subj: March 2002 Scheduled Satellite Broadcasts & Events Date: 3/4/2002 2:34:49 PM Eastern Standard Time From: infoevsofl@earthlink.net (InfoFlorida) Reply-to: infoevsofl@earthlink.net To: infoevsofl@earthlink.net March 2002 Scheduled Satellite Broadcasts & Events Sunday 3 th Intercontinental Hotel, 100 Chopin Plaza, Downtown Miami. 6:00 pm: Learning More Event 8:00 pm: Satellite Broadcast: Maharaji in Phoenix, Arizona USA Nov. 21, 2001 A program from the series of local events to which Maharaji was invited to speak. Duration: 55 minutes Sunday 10 th Intercontinental Hotel, 100 Chopin Plaza, Downtown Miami. 8:00 pm: Satellite Broadcast: Maharaji in Toronto, Canada June 14, 2000 This broadcast was taken from the 1st of 2 events held on June 14th. Duration: 49 minutes Sunday 17th Intercontinental Hotel, 100 Chopin Plaza, Downtown Miami. 6:00 pm: Preparing for Knowledge Event: This event is for people preparing to receive the techniques of Knowledge. People who have already received Knowledge are also welcome to attend. 8:00 pm: Satellite Broadcast: Enjoying Knowledge Alexandria, Virginia USA June 17, 2000 Taken from an event held in Alexandria, Virginia on June 17, 2000. Duration: 44 minutes Sunday 24 th MBWC: 2401 Pine Tree Drive 8:00 pm: Satellite Broadcast: Maharaji in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania USA Nov. 19, 2001 A program from the series of local events to which Maharaji was invited to speak. Duration: 52 minutes Sunday 31 th MBWC: 2401 Pine Tree Drive 8:00 pm: Satellite Broadcast: Maharaji in Boston, Massachusetts USA June 12, 2000 This broadcast was taken from the 1st of 2 events held on June 12th. Duration: 44 minutes aprox. TWO IMPORTANT CHANGES TO BROADCASTS 1. Important! New Broadcast Times! Beginning on Sunday, March 3rd all Sunday broadcasts will move to a new time slot. The broadcast will begin at 5:00pm PST (8:00pm. EST). 2. Thursday broadcasts will be discontinued for the present time as of March 1, 2002. BROADCASTS EASILY ACCESSIBLE Anyone who subscribes to DISH can access the broadcasts. The channel number and the time to tune in are all one needs. There is no need to contact Visions in order to view the broadcasts. The broadcasts are generally on Channel 9602 and occasionally on 9601. Go to the DISH on-screen programming guide and select the program titled ³Maharaji.² Broadcast schedules are posted on the Visions website at www.visionsinternational.org SPONSORSHIP These broadcasts are supported by the Visions Broadcasts and Materials Sponsorship program (regular monthly donations) as well as through special contributions. Sponsorship is available at any level to anyone who wishes to support the work of providing broadcasts and materials conveying Maharaji¹s message to people all around the world. For information, please call the toll free sponsorship line at 1-888-610-0500 or visit www.visionsinternational.org. Your support is greatly appreciated. To confirm information on video events, call: (305) 270-4768 English (305) 270-4770 Spanish For recorded information about events that Maharaji will be attending: (818) 889-0500 English (818) 889-1717 Spanish For those interested in finding out more about Maharaji and Knowledge: (818) 879-1500 English National Mail Order Library Phone #: (800) 603-0319 Other resources available: http://www.maharaji.net To order video and audiocassettes or satellite transmissions, contact: Visions International at: (805) 496-4777 or visit their Website: http://www.visionsinternational.org Thank you very much Info Miami Miami Communications Team infoevsofl@earthlink.net

Subject: Re: March 2002 Scheduled From: PatD To: Sulla Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 20:00:21 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 2. Thursday broadcasts will be discontinued for the present time as of March 1, 2002. He never could be bothered to show up,loadsa times,back when he was starting out. This is where I came in... Never judge the master.Hang on,I've seen this movie before.

Subject: That's it in a nutshell From: Jim To: Livia Date Posted: Sat, Feb 23, 2002 at 20:36:16 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Perhaps the need for certainty is much greater when you are younger, hence M and Sai Baba's enormous success in attracting young devotees. The trouble is, though, that once you have taken on a world-view and belief system of such all-embracingness, and stuck with it, it becomes hard to shake it off because it so colours how you view the world. And you engage in increasingly weird mental contortions to retain the belief system that has underpinned your life. Exactly!