Subject: re: interesting stuff From: fr To: All Date Posted: Mon, May 20, 2002 at 08:06:09 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I recently watched a short interview with the Dalai Lama and what struck me, despite the lack of English fluency and the general hesitancy in his speech, was the many references to basic values, such as kindness and compassion for one's fellow beings. Now that's not really so striking, because that's of course what most religion's preach, except when one compares it to M and the almost absolute omission of such references. Or is this my distorted EPO brainwashing coming into play??? This is not the first time such thoughts about the cult have struck me, but I am reminded again when seeing another 'spiritual leader' talk in such different terms. What sort of a role model have we had for all these years? It's a continual wonder to me that we didn't become more greedy and selfish and unethical and still retained some basic respect and care for each other as fellow premmies. His often disparaging remarks and cruel jokes about anyone and everyone could have driven us to playground tactics, and perhaps they did, just more sophisticated versions. Luckily I wasn't involved in any 'high level' service, but certainly heard some stories, but of course it was always the fault of the individual premmies in question. NEVER that the culture itself was at fault. ('cult' in culture, is there some linguistic significance?) O, God, I've just flashbacked to how privileged I felt to have M as my master, whenever I listened to religious leaders, the Dalai Lama included! It's funny isn't it that one 'gets it' about the cult, but still have moments of wonder about how empty and tragic the whole thing is, and how it was possible to get so sucked in. Thank you to all who responded to my first post with your warm welcomes. Just a brief explanation to whoever was concerned I was feeling some 'pressure' to deprogram other premmies. I'm generally very much a laissez faire type of person, not into scoring points, debating (for the sake of an argument), conversion or aggressively pushing my own viewpoint, however i have found it very hard to shut up on this one, as I said, because of the freedom I've found, the exhilaration it brings, and yes, the fear and depression and confusion, but it's all part of the RIDE and one i would just not like my friends to miss (because it's all so bleeding obvious now and the hurt is a necessary evil, like freeing oneself from any relationship/friendship that is not based on truth, dignity, respect and equality). Anyway, i've toned down the evangelical side a bit now and back to the 'old me' live and let live approach. I wonder is this PASSION and URGE to share and care part of the early stages of transition out? Have others found this? And if so what has the outcome been? Freedomrider (slowing down from gallop to trot, maybe transformed to 'old nag' by next post)

Subject: Interesting stuff? From: Pat W To: All Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 14:45:11 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: A friend in the UK emailed me this talk with this fellow called Andrew Cohen who is something to do with a magazine called 'What is enlightenment?' containing articles with titles such as 'is the Guru dead?'. Cohen speaks some sense here actually, although I am not particularly interested in his other 'teaching' per se. If you want to check out the organisation and their ideas the URL is: www.wie.org More interestingly, this friend of mine also mentioned in his email that he heard the other day that a big US PAM has jumped ship following the Leaders article. I'm not sure whether he cares to expand on this yet or whether we will ever hear from the said individual. Anyway, somebody said below that the testimonies of Mischler, Dettmers, Donner etc. were by far the most off-putting things that a wavering premie could read. I totally agree, so I rather hope these disillusioned PAMs make known to us all what is going on that they find so disturbing. Reading the new Mishler interview on EPO was a bit of shock even for me. Mike Dettmers had told me that he had quite regularly had to carry the over-inebriate Lord to bed, (over a period of about 15-20 years or so I think he said- I still find that hard to believe) but I think even so I had kind of subconsciously thought he may have been exaggerating a bit! Anyway lo and behold if old Mischler had the same experience apparently. How can someone who is so screwed up to resort daily to excessive alcohol consumption be trusted as a Master? That's what I'd like to know. The premie answer is simply 'Well, the people who report this are lying'. It's surely getting harder to deny all these reports though isn't it? And of course there is the very distinct lack of any actual refutal from the M camp. The sense of betrayal comes from realising that this stuff was so consciously hidden from us. I really wonder how much of Maharaji's authoritative ranting we would have taken seriously back then if we had known that he was most likely 'half cut'. The one thing that impressed me when I met and talked with Mike Dettmers about all this was how absolutely clear he was that Maharaji was an utterly contemptible fraud. I felt like saying - 'oh, but he's not all bad you know'. I felt in a way that he (and Mischler) were lucky to have witnessed at first hand all the drunken, abusive behaviour etc. because they probably never took Maharaji seriously as a result. Many of us , on the other hand, have mostly only the stage-persona to go on and have formed very strong ideas of M as being a very 'Good' person - in fact the ultimate in Goodness really- and we trusted him implicitly and above all others. It's an extremely hard habit to break as we can now appreciate. These PAMs have a lot of power, (much more than us grunts) with their stories from the other side of the tracks, to shatter premies comfortable concepts about the person their Master really was and is. My experience is that most current premies still don't really believe the reports, just as I was reluctant to do. Like Cohen says in the interview below, the deep bond that people form with Maharaji from their personal experiences becomes the very thing that makes them overlook corrupt things their Guru is doing and then ...they too become corrupt in a way. Incidently, even a local well-known co-ordinator admitted to me that probably half of what Mike Dettmers reported was true and he mentioned that Maharaji was indeed supplied with Cognac and Marlboroughs wherever he went. I told him that my current feeling, in the light of the effective cover-up perpetuated by Maharaji and PAMS was that by comparison, Mike's every word rung true with crystal clarity . Here's the excerpt from Cohen's dialogue.... Spiritual Slavery and the Prostitution of the Soul A Dialogue with Andrew Cohen Question: I'm very confused about this matter of ethical conduct and its relationship to the enlightened understanding that you speak so much about. Why is it that so many gurus seem to be prey to the very same weaknesses as ordinary people? I would have thought that an ego that had died would not be able to act in the same selfish way as people who did not claim to be enlightened. Andrew Cohen: Maybe in the cases that you are speaking about, the ego didn't die. Maybe in these cases, there is a fully intact ego coexisting with a profound realization. Most people don't realize that ego and profound realization can coexist. It is for that reason that so many people have gotten into trouble. Q: But I don't understand how, even after the failings of the guru have become obvious, people will still allow themselves to be taken advantage of. They often will continue to be followers in the face of unethical behavior, and in some cases even gross abuse. A: Often when a person meets a teacher in whom the Absolute is manifesting to a powerful degree, their heart will open up unexpectedly. They may experience unusual insight and understanding just through mere association with this kind of extraordinary individual. After this kind of experience it is easy to understand how one may get very attached to that individual. The bond that is formed through experiences like these runs very deep. Slowly without even realizing it, in order to protect the love and beauty of that precious event, the person starts to be willing to overlook things. The minute that begins, they become corrupt themselves. Q: Is that when they start to rationalize? A: Yes, then they become corrupt, in the same way the guru is. When you try to talk to the disciples of these gurus about simple virtues, they often are unable to make any sense. Also, they will frequently say things like, 'Ethical conduct and enlightenment have nothing to do with each other,' in an attempt to justify the confusing behavior of their guru. The minute anybody allows themselves to tolerate corruption they become a part of it. These people desperately don't want to see the depth of the corruption that they themselves are immersed in. The security of their spiritual well-being depends on the fact that no matter what, the actions of the guru are never questioned. Because their hearts are so invested in the guru, they will make almost any rationalization or justification for the guru's actions. They will do almost anything in order to protect that love that the guru has revealed to them. This is spiritual slavery and prostitution of the soul. In weak-minded people the seal of enlightenment becomes a license for abuse. Q: How is it then with the matter of trust? Does one ultimately only surrender to one's own knowing of the truth? A: Yes. Q: Then not to the guru? A: Ultimately the guru and your knowing of truth should be one and the same. There shouldn't be any difference. If there is, there's something wrong. That means there is either something wrong in your idea of what the truth is and your experience of what the truth is or there's some defect in the guru. Ideally they should be perfectly synonymous. Q: But shouldn't surrender be to truth alone? A: But in a sense that's all people surrender to anyway. They surrender to their own experience. If you go to a teacher and you have a powerful experience, it's that experience that you surrender to. What usually happens next though, is that you get involved with the personality of the teacher. Powerful experience makes you hungry for more. That's why people get more involved. They want to get to know who this guru is. They fall in love and then want to be more intimate. Then they get involved with the personality of the teacher. At that point it's no longer just a spiritual experience; they begin to get involved with a human personality. That's when the trouble starts. If there's any trouble that could start, that's when it's going to begin. When the personality of the guru and the love and beauty that the guru revealed begin to conflict with each other, that means something is wrong. As I said before, people are weak, weak-minded, and if someone is truly enlightened, they will have a very powerful mind and be very charismatic. People are easily overwhelmed by that. Because their heart has been awakened, because they have been deeply touched by something, they often don't care about anything else. And in order to protect that experience, they will often tolerate just about anything. This is dangerous. This is a corrupt condition that a great deal of the spiritual world is in these days. If the guru is corrupt and you're intimately involved with the guru, you can't help but be corrupt yourself. It's unavoidable. By association it's an automatic result. It's a very delicate business. Q: So how does one discern? To what degree do I question my own perception and trust? A: Just go by the basics. There are some very basic, ethical laws that anybody who's not insane knows. They are not esoteric. Q: So where do you draw the line? A: The line is drawn where suffering is caused to other people due to selfish actions that stem from ignorance. That's where you draw the line. [the science of the student teacher relationship]

Subject: Spot on, Mr Cohen! [nt] From: Neville To: Pat W Date Posted: Mon, May 20, 2002 at 04:04:34 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: YES... VERY From: Loaf To: Pat W Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 22:59:52 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I was just feeling before, how Knowledge and M have created a 'bubble' in which I have become a 'tin-pot dictator'.. all 'Heart' and priority of MY FEELINGS and no compromise. A very subjective world in which a person does get drunk indeed on their own importance, or rather the importance which they syphon off maharaji. Andrew hit many nails on their heads when he said : A: Yes, then they become corrupt, in the same way the guru is. IF I was being recreated in maharaji's image... (which I believe I was.. subtly...as his apparant priorities fed into me and became my own) - then who is going to teach him how to behave ? NOBODY Who os going to remind him that he has an EGO and a personality and his behaviour is out of order ? Nobody Why ? Because he wouldnt allow himself to be challenged. Sounds familiar ? Yep it sounds like premies. It also is a really bad habit to get into and a tough and humbling one to break.

Subject: Re: YES... VERY From: Nobody To: Loaf Date Posted: Mon, May 20, 2002 at 01:51:31 (PDT) Email Address: none Message: I don't normally post here, but I have to say this. I recently told M that he does have an ego and a personality and that his behavior was a few times unreasonable as far as I could see. I was in no way afraid to convey this and he took it quite nicely. Meditations are useful and very refreshing. Good luck to you all. Premie Nobody None

Subject: Re: YES... VERY From: P W To: Nobody Date Posted: Mon, May 20, 2002 at 05:11:46 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I don't normally post here, but I have to say this. I recently told M that he does have an ego and a personality and that his behavior was a few times unreasonable as far as I could see. I was in no way afraid to convey this and he took it quite nicely. Meditations are useful and very refreshing. Good luck to you all. Premie Nobody None Hi PNN, I am not surprised in the least by your report. The idea that Maharaji doesn't have an ego and a personality is of course totally indefensible (and went out with the Stone Age didn't it?) and no doubt Maharaji couldn't give two hoots whether you think his behavior is 'a few times unreasonable' since he probably doesn't value your opinion anyway. Do you honestly think otherwise?? Well done for speaking your mind though. Of course he would have reacted differently if you actually took steps to make him see the error of his ways in a more insistent manner or pointed out how incredibly manipulatative and hypocritical of him it was to for years berate everybody else for their personalities and egos. If you tried to stop him from doing anything he wanted to do that you deemed unreasonable, my guess is that your involvement with him would be history. I'm sure you'll agree. So your relationship with him could be likened to that of a mere servant to a powerful man who has no need to consider the somewhat impotent 'excuse-me-Sir-but-that-was-a -bit-unreasonable' complaints of one of his utterly dispensible servants. You see, I don't think the fact that Maharaji took your criticism 'quite nicely' says anything about his appreciation or acceptance of whatever misbehaviour you were referring to, because he has manifestly got himself, over the years, into a position where he really doesn't need to consider criticism so one would expect him to just ignore people or politely listen at best. He is rich beyond measure and surrounded largely by 'Yes men' by his own design. The day he turns around and apologises I will be more impressed that the criticisms of the likes of yourself are having some effect. I hope you don't flatter yourself that your being prepared to criticise Maharaji says anything positive about the health of your relationship with him. I detect some tentativeness about the incident. Whilst premies may see faults , as Cohen says, many are nevertheless prepared broadly to tolerate them- in effect adding endorsement to his unreasonable behaviour . Do you think that Maharaji has shown by his lifestyle and behaviour that he is somehow more capable of having Ego, and Personality and behaving unreasonably than you or I, by the way? My current feeling is that your criticism was also really a bit of an understatement because, rather than being just 'a few times unreasonable' I would say that he has behaved very duplicitously for a protracted and lengthy period as is demonstrated by the fact that he clearly did not practice what he preached... we were quite clearly ordered to avoid sex, drugs, drink , possessions - the 'World' in short, whilst he indulged, courted and is evidently still enchanted by the latter to the hilt. Yes, I find 'meditations useful and refreshing' too - but I did not need to surrender my life to bossy boots to realise that did I?! The Great Master has been treated so obsequiously for years by PAMs that he has no doubt been given plenty of rope with which to 'hang himself' as it were, by getting a bit too into the role of treating people like the slaves they desperately aspire to be. There has always been a sort of Sado Masochistic side to the whole thing. A symbiosis of Abusive Master and willing slaves crying 'beat my ego Oh Lord'. The funny thing is that Maharaji has really played the part so brilliantly that he himself seems to have transmogrified from the sweet little boy Guru into the archetypal almost Mafiosa style materialistic, amoral Big Boss figure we see today. Are you trying to tell us that we can expect a change??? Pray elaborate.

Subject: Excellent response,PW.. From: Jim S. To: P W Date Posted: Mon, May 20, 2002 at 06:56:38 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Your repsonse was excellent, not only because it hit on so many pertinent points, but also because it illuminated the premie response of 'Oh, we've already covered that one...there's really nothing to think about concerning that...' When premies read somethig confronting to their relationship-myth with maharaji like the Andrew Cohen piece, they many times have a quick response like the one above, and then move on to the premie position of non-thinking or evaluating and placing the 'connection' and the 'experience' above all else, to remove themselves from the shakier ground of reason, ethics, common sense, questioning etc... Your response showed how shallow the PNN response was. I'd like to wager that you get no real respose of any depth from PNN...fairly typical for the 'hit and run' premies who wander through from time to time.. The other interesting thing is the 'Andrew Cohen' phenomenon...he is currently on the cover of his own magazine 'What is Enlightenment', with Ken Wilber, a fairly serious Buddhist thinker ad writer/lecturer. Wilber, BTW, has some great challenges to Bubba Free John, who in some ways has some great similarities to maharaji, and has now retreated to Fiji, to be adored by very wierd submissive devotees, mostly female.... Wilber challenges BFJ, if he is the messiah he claims to be, to come out into the world of people and ideas and engage in real dialogue and debate about his work, if he is serious about helping the world....like maharaji, BFJ has stadfastly refused over and over again, showing himself to be quite insecure abou something or other.... However, back to the 'AC' point.... Isn't it interesting how a guru like AC can be so clear about some point (in this case, corruption of the guru and disciple) and make so much sense, all the time personally violating every bit of that good, ethical sense he was elaborating on? Isn't AC doing just what he is railing against? In this case, using his personal charisma to hide from the fact that he is engaging in the very same lack of ethics that he talks about gurus commonly having? But it seems to be (in AC's mind) that if he talks about it as if he is above it all, then he IS above it all... Doesn't this sound just like maharaji? All of his rants about the 'world' not bringing happiness, and all the time volating his own philosophy....(it wasn't until I heard the Mischler and Dettmers interviews about his obsession with wealth and toys, while I thought he was always thinking about propagaton, coupled with his driking and philandering and abusive behaviors,that it really sunk in...) Eventually, the insulated and unchallenged world he lives in becomes part of his undoing....if premies were allowed to challenge maharaji from the start, this mess never would have become what it is today, for premies or the guru... Nice post, PW...

Subject: Only in the 'premie/new age' world... From: Jim S. To: Jim S. Date Posted: Mon, May 20, 2002 at 07:27:53 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It's only in the 'premie/new age' world, that I cme across the notion that you can be a teacher of something or other, but you DON'T necessarily have to be living it to teach it.... I have always had the common sense belief that in order to be considered a teacher, you had to be living,not just talking, the teaching...'walk the talk', 'practice what you preach' etc.... But in the 'premie/new age world I have come across so many charlatans who are so hypocriical, and the apologist response I always get is something like...'He's a messenger-he may not be totally living the message, but he's a messnger for the message, and he's just conveying that to you-he doesn't necessarily have to be living it....don't get into the man, just listen to the message...' In maharaji's case,I wonder how many days he has practiced meditation, and for how long? How can he yell at premies for their lack of practice, when he wouldn't know what it was like to do it day after day? (And if he does practice every day, he should brag about THAT,not his latest acquisition...THAT would be inspiring...I wonder what his 'experience' would be?... What a load of bullshit....have other people encountered this stuff as well?....

Subject: Barry Long From: Livia To: Jim S. Date Posted: Mon, May 20, 2002 at 07:05:30 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Did anyone ever come across a guru called Barry Long? He's Australian and is into helping women integrate the spiritual into their sexuality(yes, really!). A neighbour of mine used to be really into him and even went to see him in Oz. He puts himself across as very pure and spiritual etc etc - she's shown me the books. Anyway it now turns out he was shagging loads of his devotees. It makes you weary just hearing about it all. Livia

Subject: Re: Barry Long From: Thorin To: Livia Date Posted: Mon, May 20, 2002 at 07:40:34 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Sheesh another self-apointed guru - there must be thousands. Here's a quote from Barry Long You are the eternal contradiction. Since before conception you are the sexual craving of immortal life itself, you are the paradox of life craving for life and death at the same time: immortality craving for a fleshly form of life that will inevitably die Wonder what sort of weed he was on when he said that? If I really need a Guru I think I will follow Donald Duck - that duck is pure inspiration :) quack quack Thorin

Subject: Oh Bless him From: Loaf To: Nobody Date Posted: Mon, May 20, 2002 at 02:35:03 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Lets hope he is not afraid to address his faults as publicly as his virtues

Subject: To Pat W. From: Disculta To: Pat W Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 18:38:01 (PDT) Email Address: With. Message: Ahem, yes - thanks for pointing out that a guru that has to be carried to bed many many times blind drunk over 10-15 years might be of dubious spiritual value as a guide! I had read the accounts by Mike Dettmers, and then by Bob Mishler, but it was only actually reading your post, Pat, that I put together how COMPLETELY OUTRAGEOUS this is. I think we should have a real simulated photo of someone carrying the drunkern Lard to bed, and have it at the opening of this forum. Any of you up for this? I guess this really p's me off! I left in 1984 because he was a verbally abusive idjit. It wasn't easy leaving. If this information had been available I woulda left earlier, or more easily. I think it's important information to put forth. It's also really interesting to read Pat's emphasis on the fact that Dettmers doesn't think MJ had any redeeming features. So many partial exes think he does. I met someone last night who has been out for years, but went last year to see him and said it was 'nice.' Snarl!

Subject: WOW! A 'simply must read'!!! [nt] From: Livia To: Pat W Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 15:18:41 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: Interesting stuff? From: Thorin To: Pat W Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 15:16:22 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Patrick wie.org indeed? I see our old friend Andrew Cohen continues with his usual revised self. It is a bit rich that Andrew speaks about ethics when .... From an ex-follower of Andrew Cohen about the Andrew Cohen organisation and on Andrew Cohen (on Steve Hassan's site) Deception and spying and holding out information is the norm. The group doesn't like lots of questions about the running of the place, especially about where all the money goes from the millionaire he has who give him so much of their money, plus the rest of the group which gives whatever they have to the point of bankruptcy and destitution. He asks for absolute control of his adherents. And each one controls the other through a series of informants. Every knows they have to watch what they say because everything goes back to Andrew. That's the way the people get points with Andrew, by gossiping and ratting on each other. Did you check out his main site at www.andrewcohen.org? Also, were you aware that Andrew's own mother, after following him as a Guru for a while, disowned him and felt sore enough to even write a book. She has a site called www.themotherofgod.com So, all in all, I personally will be giving Andrew a wide bearth. IMO what he says is simply a hook to draw apparently rational people into his web. So yes 'interesting stuff' but eminently forgetable. More interesting is the 'big US PAM' you mentioned. warmly, Thorin

Subject: Re: Interesting stuff? From: Livia To: Thorin Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 15:24:00 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Fair enough, Thorin, but forget about the man in this case - what he said there was actually very pertinent. Obviously if you're going to follow the guy as a guru, a close look at him is essential! But though he's far from perfect, the interview contained an extremely interesting analysis of what can happen to a person's integrity when they devote themself to a master whose own integrity is open to question. Don't you think? (It was great talking to you earlier, by the way!) Love, Liv

Subject: Re: Interesting stuff? From: Thorin To: Livia Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 15:32:29 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Liv Online again at the same time I see! Yeah I agree with the central analysis re following someone who's integrity is open to question. Lots of experience in that department! Some of the stuff that Andrew has put out in the past seems credible but he does sort of seem to have some sort of 'divinity complex' so I am simply very alert to anything he may venture. I guess I will just have to go back and read T.S. Elliot to get inspiration. I think I have had enough of Gurus to last a thousand lifetimes. Love, Thorin

Subject: Re: Interesting stuff? From: Livia To: Thorin Date Posted: Mon, May 20, 2002 at 05:25:21 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks, Thorin. Yes, I was kind of naively not realising that Andrew Cohen, as a 'guru' himself, was describing the inadequate guru as a way of leading people to himself, the presumably totally adequate guru (not!!!). But if you can ignore the probable agenda, it was a good analysis of what can happen in the guru/disciple relationship. Yes I think I've had enough of gurus to last a lifetime too and I'm certainly not looking for another one thank you very much! Love, Liv

Subject: Re: Interesting stuff? From: Thorin To: Livia Date Posted: Mon, May 20, 2002 at 05:49:28 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi again Liv Yes, definitly ignoring Andrew's agenda the analysis that Andrew gives is a good one. The toxicity of the guru-devotee relationship is a subject that I find increasingly interesting. With the passage of time I find that I can view this dispassionately. I posed some questions to Disculta below on this subject. Welcome you or anyone jumping in as well. PatW, elsewhere in this thread, mentions the sadomasochistic tendancy that arises in such relationships. Definitly. At the end of the day it is the devotees that gives Gurus their power and it is with the well practised bait-and-switch tactics that Guru's enhance this power. Warmly, Thorin

Subject: Re: Interesting stuff? From: Livia To: Thorin Date Posted: Mon, May 20, 2002 at 06:09:59 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Spot on, Thorin (online simultaneously again!) I noted the sado-masochistic reference too and thought 'hmmm!' Back to the psychoanalytic sphere - what differentiates a devotee type from other people? Could there have been something common in our psyches that led us to this? And if so, and if it's upbringing related, what is it exactly? Do a lot of us share an authoritarian parent figure who we broke away from but then felt (and acted on) a subconscious need to replace? Bearing in mind that not all premies were primarily devotees, of course. As Mike Finch once pointed out, people were drawn to M and K for all sorts of reasons, ranging from the mystical to the social to the idealistic to the gopi. And some were drawn for a combination of reasons. But I wonder if those that are left are tied in mainly because of their (unexamined) gopi-type psychology? Which in turn would make it impossible, or very difficult for them to see Maharaji objectively, so strong is their need to project? Discuss! Love, Liv

Subject: Thank god I've got a virus detector From: Jim To: Pat W Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 15:12:35 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Patrick, I absolutely love and respect you and have enjoyed pretty well every post you've ever made over the many years we've been here now. This one is no exception with respect to all you say about Maharaji and the PAMs. I'm happy to hear that The Cult Leaders Magazine served as Cult Leavers Magazine for that one PAM and I, too, hope he or she does the right thing by us. I agree with you and others that there IS a right thing to do. But that Cohen stuff is complete garbage. It's like me complaining that my adult brother still believes in all the D.C. comic super heroes and Cohen is going to explain that that's silly because everyone knows that the only real super heroes worth anything at all are Marvel. Really, did you actually read that shit? It's Andrew Cohen's How to Tell a Real Unicorn in a World of Fakes shtick and, frankly, it's as stupid and toxic as the original material, maybe even more so because of the insidious way he's poised to show you how to find a 'real' guru, not a fake one. Yeah, right!

Subject: Jim, you read things too thoroughly From: Loaf To: Jim Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 23:10:36 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: try my technique... it will save you hours in lawyering.. Skim anything you are reading really quickly, take almost nothing in... just let the bits you like jump out at you... if you see a good bit, dont bother to read any further, but RUN LIKE FUCK to the Satsang chair and start pontificating really fast before you forget what it was you were on about. And there was me thinking I didnt have anything to teach you !

Subject: LOL -- and I'm not even awake yet!! [nt] From: Jim To: Loaf Date Posted: Mon, May 20, 2002 at 07:39:05 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: You're so damn funny, Loaf From: PatC To: Loaf Date Posted: Mon, May 20, 2002 at 01:44:29 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ........and deliciously honest and unprepossessing.

Subject: I need my dictionary [nt] From: Loaf To: PatC Date Posted: Mon, May 20, 2002 at 02:36:05 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: Thank god I've got a virus detector From: PW To: Jim Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 16:41:26 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jim, Thorin et al, I take all your points about Cohen and agree. I'd never heard of this guy until tonight and, frankly, I took one look at his photo on that site and that was enough - He loves himself way too much doesn't he? Also all those people sitting around smiling sublimely in his direction was a most distressing sight. His mum's site was very interesting too...thanks for the link Thorin. (your nom de plume sounds very Nordic..what was that Viking joke? Oh yes 'As horny as a Viking hat shop').

Subject: Even Cohen's mom knows he's a fraud From: gerry To: Jim Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 16:14:10 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: She wrote a book entitled Mother of God. Cohen's own mother exposes what a greedy egotistical power hungry little shit this guy Andrew Cohen really is. Even his mom is pissed at him for his own heavy handed guru shit. And she fell into his orbit herself for a while. So you might say she's and 'ex.' No more spirituality for me thanks. The Mother of God, by Luna Tarlo, relates the story of the author's three-and-a half years of harrowing spiritual bondage to her own son, Andrew Cohen, a well-known American guru. The book describes her travels in India, Europe, and the United States with Andrew and his earliest disciples, and reveals in stunnding detail her parallel inner journey from loving observer, to slave-like disciple, to a final wrenching asserion of autonomy. This book will be of interest to anyone concerned with the preservation of human dignity in the face of constant manipulation by the various "powers to be." It will be of particular interest to every individual who has ever been harmed by the influence of a guru and also to those individuals' greatly distressed families. The abuse of power, the incessant fear, the psychology of obsession are all explored from an intimate perspective. Since brainwashing cults and their grandiose gurus are proliferating in this country and around the world, this book is not only a mother's lament, but also a finger pointing to the growing appeal everywhere of authoritarianism and absolutism. And then there's this: About the Author Luna Tarlo, a native of Montreal, Canada, graduated from The University of Michigan where she majored in English Literature. She married and had two children and while rearing them wrote three novels, Morning Sickness, An Arid Land, An Arid Zone and Coming to Earth, in addition to several stage plays and short stories. She has just completed a screenplay for Stanley Chase Productions in Hollywood. In December 1985 Ms. Tarlo went to India to visit her thirty-year-old son Andrew, now a guru with followers all over the world. He had left for India two years earlier to seek "enlightenment" but had not yet found what he was looking for. Four months after her return to the United States she received a telephone call -- It was Andrew. "Come back to india," he said, "interesting things are happening." She boarded the first available flight and returned to India. There she found a very different person than she had left four months ago -- oddly removed, supremely confident and imbued with the conviction that he could "enlighten" others. She also found a small group already devoted to him and subsequently travelled with them from India to Europe to the United States. She was enthralled at first, but soon suspected that her son was the leader of a cult. His absolute claim to power, his grandiosity and inability to tolerate criticism shocked her. Fearful that criticism of this behavior would create an unendurable rupture between them, she kept silent. But aware of her suppressed opposition, her son, with whom she had previously shared a warm loving relationship, became increasingly cruel. During the three-and-a-half years she spent as his disciple a terrible tension grew between them. Eventually his public condemnation and humiliation of her became so ruthless that in 1991 she could bear it no longer and broke away knowing that she would probably never see him again. Ms. Tarlo is presently living and working in New York City. Contact Luna Tarlo at lunat@erols.com

Subject: Re: Even Cohen's mom knows he's a fraud From: Livia To: gerry Date Posted: Mon, May 20, 2002 at 05:29:21 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Am I completely mad here or do I remember once hearing that this Andrew Cohen was once a premie? It just rings a distant bell. Does a distant bell ring here with anyone else? Livia

Subject: Yes, 'Mother of God'... CRINGELICIOUS! From: Disculta To: gerry Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 18:32:01 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'Mother of God' by Luna Tarlo, Andrew Cohen's mother, is a fantastic book! I just read it recently! One thing that sticks out in my mind is that Andrew tried to get her to destroy all her writing (she was already a published author) to get her to prove her one-pointed devotion to him. Ethical my foot! My ex-husband used to work in a clothing store near here where Andrew's devotees used to go to buy him the expensive clothes he favored (sound familiar?). He used to come to the store a few days later and try to exchange the clothes for cash. My ex's fellow salesmen absolutely despised the man. They knew nothing about cults but I remember hearing that one of them said he could feel how much Andrew despised his followers. I HIGHLY recommend this book 'Mother of God' to everyone, as it has delightful cringelicious similarities to the obsessive experience many of us went through, as well as the subtle abuses. love Katie Darling

Subject: Re: Yes, 'Mother of God'... CRINGELICIOUS! From: Thorin To: Disculta Date Posted: Mon, May 20, 2002 at 02:12:36 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dear Disculta We spoke about Andrew Cohen before, the post from PatW got me thinking again about all this Guru vs. leadership stuff. It is incredible really that someone like Andrew can come along and spout all that stuff and, at first blush, it all seems innocuous and credible. In fact I venture that the same goes for what Maharaji spouts. What is it that allows normal rational people to follow humans like Cohen or Rawat? How are we to distinguish between Gurus who place themselves 'above' others and leaders who simply have realised the ordinariness of human nature and able to show others? On the one hand the Guru dynamic creates a toxic co-depenadancy relationship that is ulimately unfilling whearas leaders based solely on meritocracy leads to positive outcomes. How does one measure merit? For me it is easy to measure Gurujism, the measure is a negative yardstick, simply by looking at the man behind the words, the man behind the throne. For Guru's such as Rawat and Cohen this is easy, the disclosure by PAMs and others facilitates this. However I remain perplexed how one measures leaders in the positive. As Livia says below the rightful owner of your throne is your own instinct, your own intuition, your own realisation and your own wisdom, which no one can plant and no one can take away from you. We just have to learn to trust in ourselves, and ultimately our selves alone. Ulimately, of course, the measure is ones own intuition, one's own built in 'bullshit detector' - but why oh why do we readily abdicate these personal responsibilities? Is it simply just laziness and tiredness? Love, Thorin

Subject: Meeting Andrew From: Babs To: Disculta Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 20:02:12 (PDT) Email Address: ralphie@ralphiescafe.com Message: Back in the early nineties - long after I left Maharaji's cult - my husband and I became interested in the ideas of E.J.Gold. We joined a group in Boulder called the Crazy Horse Study Group which read and discussed E.J.'s books and attempted a number of experiments and exercises designed to jolt one's awareness into an altered state. The people in the group were all quite intelligent and sincere and, even more important, had senses of humor. Sometimes we even went on 'field trips' to amusement parks, restaurants, and museums. One of the group members heard there was a 'new guru' in town, and so one night we all went to hear Andrew Cohen give satsang. Boy, howdy, talk about a button-pusher! He sat in a fancy chair on a raised platform surrounded with flowers, and the devotees sat cross-legged on the floor. He droned on for what seemed like hours, and I had a really hard time not screaming and running out of the room. He sounded just like Maharaji. Just like. A beautiful young woman in our study group had the opposite reaction, however. She was immediately attracted to Andrew and has spent the last ten years at his feet. She is now in the process of exiting his cult, with all the accompanying grief we know so well. I gave her the link to this site in hopes it will be of some benefit to her to know she is not alone, and yes, there is life after devoteedom.

Subject: Good to read you again, Babs From: PatC To: Babs Date Posted: Mon, May 20, 2002 at 01:46:57 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I hope you are fit as fiddle and ready for love as Shakespeare said in Kiss Me Kate. :C)

Subject: To the Big US PAM From: JHB To: Pat W Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 15:10:43 (PDT) Email Address: epowebmaster@yahoo.co.uk Message: As Mishler said so many years ago, '.... even though I had left I was still in a way covering up for it just by the absence of ever having spoken out .....' Post here, or email me to discuss how best to tell your story. John.

Subject: Atheism out, Lord have mercy! From: Jim To: All Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 14:17:35 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Like I said, I'm too scared for words. I'm too scared for words www.newsoftheworld.co.uk/news/news5.html

Subject: Premies praise Scientologists From: PatC To: All Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 13:32:10 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Cynthia posted this on Symp: This is another link posted by Mili. If you scroll all the way down it's sponsored by the Scientologists! When Lou objected to the link based on it's creation by the Scientologists, Mili said he thought it was still credible. http://www.religiousfreedomwatch.org/false_exp/patrick1.html Chuck replied: Such irony! Premies using the same cult apologists as Scientology, apologists who argue in favor of cults on the grounds of religious freedom. Knowledge, which we were always told was NOT a relgion, being defended as a religion, because it sounds better than a cult! Premies take comfort from the fact that Maharaji's cult is very different in many respects, from crazy cults like Jim Jones. But Jones' cult was a FAILURE. He and most of his followers died! Maharaji is running his cult on much more successful role models, like Scientology. The Scientology apologists even appeal to premies like Mili. The premies have stopped asking questions for so long, that they seem to have no trouble with the revisionism of Knowledge now being a religion after all. They embrace these arguments despite the fact that Maharaji is still continuing to insist that his Knowledge is not a religion. The interesting thing is, when I first began to study the Indian Background, it became pretty apparent that in India, Knowledge IS a religion. Even though I was shocked, because I had always been told it was not a religion, I still took some comfort that it came from a religion or religious tradition, because it seemed less disturbing than believing I was part of a cult. So to that extent, I can understand premies embracing the arguement that Knowedge is a religion. But as I studied more, it was also apparent that religions and cults overlap, especially in India, where 'cult' is not a dirty word; many of the Rhadasomi's proudly describe themselves as a cult, even as 'India's fastest growing cult, a cult of Love'. When you study the differences between what the religious cults in India are doing, and what Maharaji is doing, it's very apparent that Maharaji has taken much of the religious aspects out of his schtick, while leaving and cultivating the bhakti cult aspects. For me, acknowledging Knowedge as a Bhakti Guru Religion was a stepping stone, to: a.) Admitting that I'd been lied to about Knowledge not being a religion; it clearly came from a religous tradition, and: b.) Seeing how Maharaji had watered down that religion, while preserving the bhakti-cult aspects for self serving reasons. Some of the biggest differences: In India, gurus often live in the communities they serve, and are accessible to their devotees. They perform weddings, give advice, help with local charities, etc. They are part of their community. The guru usually has a job, just like normal people. Many of them are postal workers! They don't live off the donations of their devotees. The Rhadasoamis don't believe in poverty conciousness, but they also frown on excessive wealth, believing it to be a sign of corruption. Honest Gurus, like Fakir Chand, teach that the Guru is no more divine than the devotee, and to teach otherwise is to mislead the devotee by teaching 'duality', usually for the purpose of increasing donations and making money. In India, the religious traditions to some extent provide certain standards, which when followed protect people by putting a brake on a guru's ability to exploit and abuse his followers. By eliminating much of the religion, Maharaji has freed himself up to create his own standards, without having to deal with any sort of religious morality. So for me, seeing Knowledge as being like a relgion, was actually a stepping stone, which helped me see how it was cult, using religion to make money. I'm just wondering how many other premies will find the Scientologist arguements comforting at first, but as a stepping stone out of the cult at a later date?

Subject: Great post, Chuck... From: Cynthia To: PatC Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 14:01:34 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I also noticed that in the past month links have been placed on LG for Enkankar and Ching Hai, which are listed as cults on Rick Ross's website. Are the premies still searching? I've got to go....been on this machine too long today...

Subject: Explaining why I don't follow him anymore? From: Sulla To: All Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 10:36:53 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Why bother? Nowadays premies believe that such things as truth, values, conscience, etc., are just mere concepts. How did they get there? Maharaji's efforts in constantly hammering in our heads how everything related with him and his K. is above the good and the bad, and above all judgment, has in part paid him back. He now possesses a newly renovated army of amoral premie advocates. He has turned them, little by little, step by step, into walking burned lamps. The source of light that used to be their souls is rotten dead, because the master, the father, the love, the teacher etc. is now throwing all his garbage on them, and they allow him to do it, with a smile on their faces and gratitude. And by his grace they are getting used to the putrid, and they are so happy, so grateful, so smelly, because that is what it's all about now, to stick with him no matter what. Could it be possible that someone still believes and fears that he could be the one that he once said he was?... But then he said he wasn't, but suggested that he still was, and when inspired, we said that he was, even when we were not supposed to anymore, with our hearts pounding, because then we knew that he was what we were never going to know, or not know, knowing or not knowing, because ... he was the one that he once said he was, but then said he wasn't...... Or could it be that someone is dishonest? Or brainwashed? Or sick? One bad banana spoils the bunch.

Subject: Thank you, Sulla From: PatC To: Sulla Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 11:47:35 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You said: ''He now possesses a newly renovated army of amoral premie advocates.'' Unfortunately those are the only premies that we see here - the ones who are trying to make trouble for us but most premies are decent people. I just renewed contact with an old premie friend who turned her back on me when I left the cult. She has just gotten back form Amaroo but for some reason decided to email me again after over a year. It is premies like her that keep me posting here because I know that most of them are like her - not immoral or unkind or insane as the premie cultweasels who post here are.

Subject: Hope she and others can leave 'that' army soon! From: Sulla To: PatC Date Posted: Mon, May 20, 2002 at 09:00:22 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Ironic, isn't it ... From: cq To: PatC Date Posted: Mon, May 20, 2002 at 04:24:58 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Ironic that basic moral instinct is gradually eroded by contact with this so-called 'Master'. No matter how 'beautiful' the experience of Knowledge might appear to practising premies, if it's slowly destroying the very foundation of many of their moral values in the process, that's far too heavy a price to pay, however blissfull they might feel about it. I don't want to appear to be over-dramaticising things, but these people who think they're getting closer to their 'souls' by immersing themselves in the Maha's world are, in fact, slowly selling their souls to their 'Master' Maharaji. IMO, it's got to be one of the most deceptive and dangerous paths that any honest seeker can get trapped in.

Subject: Happy Birthday PATC!!! From: Cynthia To: All Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 08:10:35 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You didn't tell us it was your birthday yesterday you naughty, naughty man. Hope you had fun, Love, Cynthia

Subject: Re: Happy Birthday PATC!!! From: Richard To: Cynthia Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 17:42:42 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Belated happy birthday greetings to PatC! You were a boxer? Do tell. Has anyone optioned your life story yet? If not, it would make a boffo feature. The Life and Loves of a Wandering Sahdu: South Africa to Babylon by the Bay PatC, Thelma the Thunder Stealing Bitch and Shakti Pat come alive on the silver screen! Sparkling Halucinations! Richard

Subject: That's a whole nother story From: PatC To: Richard Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 20:55:53 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks Richard. When I was 9 or 10 my dad decided to cure me of being a sissy and made do boxing. I was good at it and won a cup (South African gnat weight champ) but it was hell on my front teeth which have been broken, root-canalled and crowned more times than Rawat as Krishna. Yes, I've a had a few incarnations, lived a few lifetimes in one. But the boxing has since saved my life twice.

Subject: And how did you find out? From: PatC To: Cynthia Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 10:25:16 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Of course I mentioned it, right here, in a post somehwere - I said I got a birthday email from an old premie friend and that I was 55. Thanks Cynthia.

Subject: Hey, happy belated birthday, PatC! From: Crispy To: PatC Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 17:41:42 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: And has anyone said thank you for all your help, support (and patience!) here lately? Here's another appreciative 'thank you' and hope you're 55th year is full of great Taurean fine dining. :) and oh yes, of course, not to forget, another year free from Rawat! birthday cheers (2-days old, but still warm) from Crispy

Subject: Thanks Crispy Critter From: PatC To: Crispy Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 20:58:17 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Wow! Now that was one of the best birthday presents I've had. Thanks.

Subject: Happy birthday, Pat From: Marianne To: PatC Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 13:56:22 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Sounds like you had a good time, except for the tooth. Here's a cyberhug. Love, Marianne

Subject: All I want for Xmas is my.... From: PatC To: Marianne Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 14:46:17 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: A crowned tooth that was first knocked out when I was a boxer finally gave up the ghost. Thanks for the cyberhug.

Subject: Didn't you know I'm psychic?:):) [nt] From: Cynthia To: PatC Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 10:28:03 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: YAY !! Happy Birthday PatC!!! [nt] From: Loafie To: Cynthia Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 08:31:51 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Merci, pain au chocolat [nt] From: PatC To: Loafie Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 10:26:33 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Happy B-day Pat C! From: Sulla To: Loafie Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 09:53:05 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I hope you have a wonderful day, in the company of your loved ones including your cute little dogs. My hamsters say hi! Are you going to have a cake? light plenty of candles and save me a piece. Have fun!

Subject: Happy belated B-day! From: Sulla To: Sulla Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 10:13:46 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I hope you had a wonderful day, in the company of your loved ones including your cute little dogs. My hamsters say hi! Did you have cake? Did you light plenty of candles and save me a piece? I hope you had lots of fun!

Subject: Hi to your hamsters. Thanks Sulla [nt] From: PatC To: Sulla Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 10:23:28 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Happy Birhday Pat!!! From: Livia To: PatC Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 14:56:50 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Pat and Happy Birthday!!! Wish we could all be there in your restaurant stuffing ourselves and having a ball. In fact email me your phone no sometime if you still have my email and I'll call you sometime on impulse - it'd be fun to talk for a few momentsm n'est-ce pas? Love, Liv XX

Subject: Thanks, Liv. Will do [nt] From: PatC To: Livia Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 15:03:02 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: A Critical View of the Ex-Premie Scene From: Cynthia To: All Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 08:06:15 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I found this link on LG this morning. The name is of the site is in my subject line. I'm sure there will be comments on this anonymously written site. http://www.geocities.com/exitism/exitism/Exitism.htm Critical View of Ex-Premie Scene www.geocities.com/exitism/exitism/Exitism.htm

Subject: Re: A Critical View of the Ex-Premie Scene From: Neville To: Cynthia Date Posted: Mon, May 20, 2002 at 03:52:33 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: This is self-serving rubbish barely worth discussion. Neville

Subject: Whoops From: Neville To: Neville Date Posted: Mon, May 20, 2002 at 03:56:23 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Whoops. I mean the 'critical view' article is self-serving rubbish, not Cynthia's post. Clarity, clarity, spare nothing to achieve clarity... Neville

Subject: I Just re-read it ... From: Loaf To: Cynthia Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 13:04:42 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: and I really dont know what to say ! Nobody will ever read my posts again !!! I think I am guilty of flying off the handle and swiping at ghosts... I am jumpy and nervous of authority, like a rape victim is of a friendly touch..and I am beginning to suspect that my trust and faith in others has been contaminated.. NOT by maharaji's betrayal of me, BUT by the drip drip drip of the devisive effects of the techniques of Knowledge and the conditioning of believing that the HEART is reliable. The sheer arrogance and seperateness of Premiedom has left me feeling like a fish out of water. Like an exiled and overthrown mini-dictator . I had become a mini-maharaji, insulated in a bubble of self esteem based on false horizons. I would have wanted HIM to challenge my horizons, but nobody else has been let near. In these matters, this forum deals with matters which previously I would only have let maharaji speak with authority. Now we are here, and I find I am overly nervous of there being created a second maharaji in my life, and nervous of being coralled into compliance.. and yet there is still a vacant throne in my heart. A throne which he occupied. A throne which makes me vulnerable to usurpers. You have all treated my vulnerability with the utmost of respect.. and i thank you. Thanks Jim for all your good work and your constant dilligence. I am humbled, and am learning slowly to leave my throne empty.

Subject: Thanks, Loaf From: Jim To: Loaf Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 14:57:33 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Loaf, This has happened to me before ... well, kinda. In a way, it happens all the time. I'll have some great response to something just because it kind of looks good, rings some sort of bell somehow, and I'll say something. It can happen to anyone. The really interesting thing, and noble I have to say in this case, is the way you were able to retrace your steps with humility, honesty and thus, in the end, honour. I must say, that's a breath of fresh air considering that what we're dealing with in people like Deborah, Selene, Salam and now Dave is a lack of accountability that allows them to reverse themselves cleanly and fairly where need be. And look at the extent to which they'll go to cover for themselves once they've opted against such accountability! Imagine, Loaf, if you would have staked a position as you did here only to see it assailed, as it was, as untenable BUT this time you weren't about to let anyone tell you anything. In the case of all four of those jokers, that's exactly what happened. Exactly! In fact, in the weirdest display of bizarreness, Deborah has now tried to twist my attempt to bring her back to some rational perspective as just that much further proof that I (we?) are trying to 'control' her mind. What I'm referring to is the question I tried to ask her when I hadn't give up any last hope that she wasn't completely beyond reach which I now sadly believe to be true. All I asked her, as carefully and civilly as I could, was what the characters of either Gerry, Pat, John or myself had to do with the bigger, prime questions about Maharaji that bring us here in the first place. You know, so what if I'm an asshole, what's that got to do with the price of eggs in China, kind of thing. Deborah and her silly friends saw that as just that much more intimidation and brainwashing. And that, I'm afraid, is the mentality that spawned this pathetic website Salam did. If people are afraid to discuss and consider things rationally, then every last slight, real or imagined, fogs the lens and makes communication impossible. Those poor folk, is all I can say. You, on the other hand, Loaf, reconsidered your post, in spite of your embarrassment, and that really is a rather brave kind of thing to do. Good luck next time too! :)

Subject: Re: I Just re-read it ... From: Livia To: Loaf Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 14:44:47 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Loafie, you are a sweet soul and I've always loved your posts. Quickly, because it's my bedtime, I just wanted to say - the rightful owner of your throne is your own instinct, your own intuition, your own realisation and your own wisdom, which no one can plant and no one can take away from you. We just have to learn to trust in ourselves, and ultimately our selves alone. If we need tools to help us to increase our instinct, intuition, realisation and wisdom, we can find them. And if we want to do it without tools we can do that too. But the main thing to remember is that we are all potentially as wise as whoever we may listen to, so who better to listen to, ultimately, than ourselves. It's all in there. Much love to you, Loafie Livia XX

Subject: Hi again Loafie From: Marianne To: Loaf Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 13:23:02 (PDT) Email Address: MarianneDB@aol.com Message: Loafie, just take your time with yourself. No one here wants to intimidate you into thinking one thing or another. I think finding meaningful and reliable friendships is a real first step towards healing a wrong that was done to your heart and mind. You've got Nigel and Moley there - two wonderful people who care about you. I can't imagine two better people to hang with and help you get your head on straight. Meanwhile, there's email with the rest of us! Hang in there. Marianne

Subject: See my post to you below, Loafie... [nt] From: Cynthia To: Loaf Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 13:13:36 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Salam's latest mischief From: PatC To: Cynthia Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 11:06:42 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The typos, the color scheme, the clumsy use of columns, the turns of phrase, the recent faction fights led by him all point to this site being Salam's latest piece of mischief. I have never trusted Salam and have long contended that, even if he is not a fictional character created by someone like Roupell to be a fake ex, he might as well be because he sure behaves as a cult agent provocateur. No real person can be as irrational and stupid as he is. Since I have challenged him and called his bluff he has removed his Journey from EPO. (It always seemed fake - he claimed not to remember any dates or places or simple details.) He stepped up his disgusting homophobic attacks on me and spread lies about my business. When I accused him of being Quiet and Quiet's mate, Quiet immediately disappeared. Then another anonymous sniper appeared - ZB, who stalked Jim all over the four forums making snide lawyer jokes. ZB also happened to use the same IP# as Quiet and Quiet's mate. Then I accused Salam of being Phil/Oliver/Twiz, a particularly insane hydra-headed monster who used to derail discussions on F5 when I first arrived over a year ago. Now Twiz has suddenly re-appeared after an abscence of more than a year and declared himself to have been posting as ZB. Salam is a cult agent provocateur. He is not even a real person. He is a fictional character like Roupell's cerise or like Catweasel. He has succeeded in gathering about him a harem of disgruntled women on AG who email him and phone him and feel sorry for him. He is the creator of this faction of disgruntled exes and is using the most mentally fragile as tools in his campaign. I know I don't have proof but I also know that I am right. Salam is another cerise designed to create disruption among exes. Mark my words. I am also convinced that he was the creator of CAC. Salam is a cultweasel, a fictional ex just as Phil/Oliver/Twiz are designed to make exes look like paranoid nuts. I was right about them all being the same person when everyone else believed they were separate but when I said it I was too new on the forum to be taken seriously. Now he has said it himself. Salam is a cult agent, a fake persona like cerise/Marolyn et al. If you don't believe me fine but don't say I didn't warn you. These fakes exes have been introducing an atmosphere of insanity to the forum for a long time. They put me off posting for a year. Anyone can see that most exes are perfectly sane and rational so why are all the insane, anonymous exes posting from Australia? Because it's all one or two cult agents doing it, probably Roupell and/or Catweasel.

Subject: You're probably right From: JHB To: PatC Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 12:20:07 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I don't know if this is any help, but my approach to anyone new is to take them at face value. If they then come across as a little dubious, then I just keep them at arms length emotionally, and see what happens. I've felt for a long time that being fooled is irrelevant if it had no negative effect on me. What I mean is that it doesn't matter if there is no substantive difference between believing someone or not believing them. Salam, or whoever he is, has put a tremendous amount of work into his crusade since he appeared. His counter to it-aint-so certainly seemed like a genuine ex site, and his offer for someone to take it over also seemed genuine. So, I just don't know. Certainly at the moment he's behaving like he's one sandwich short of a picnic. John.

Subject: Re: You're probably right From: PatC To: JHB Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 12:27:27 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You said: ''....my approach to anyone new is to take them at face value. If they then come across as a little dubious, then I just keep them at arms length emotionally, and see what happens. I've felt for a long time that being fooled is irrelevant if it had no negative effect on me.'' I couldn't agree more. I also cannot be fooled - for long. I take all newbies at face value and figure that they will eventually show their true colors. Salam's CAC profile was totally innocuous compared with the attacks on Jim, Marianne, Joe and me. A red herring - as was his Say it ain't so site. Salam is either completley insane or an agent provocateur. Either way he a mischief-maker and malicious to boot.

Subject: Re: Salam's latest mischief From: PatD To: PatC Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 12:07:26 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Am I mistaken in thinking Salam was at the 1st London Latvian night? I remember some photos,well over a yr ago now. AJW,JHB,Jean-Michel,& Marianne were on them,all of whom I met(all too briefly) at the 2nd. Wasn't Salam there also,or is my memory letting me down.

Subject: Your memory is letting you down From: JHB To: PatD Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 14:52:07 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: No, I've never met Salam, who lives in Australia. The Latvian night pictures were taken at, I think, the third Latvian night at the London Latvian club, although there was a meeting of me, Jethro, Anth and Charlie in a pub before that, and me and Jethro met once before. The person at the Latvian night you refer to that is missing from your list is cq (Chris Giles). The Latvian night when you attended was at least the fourth, possibly 5th or 6th depending on how you count them:-) All the best, John.

Subject: LG daft shenanigens From: Livia To: JHB Date Posted: Mon, May 20, 2002 at 07:08:52 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: They're all plotting their latest attempts to confound us all over here - it's actually becoming quite sad, and desperate too, as they desperately try to convince themselves that we're the sad desperate ones. Oh dear indeed. Love to all, Livia

Subject: Latvian night From: Marianne To: PatD Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 12:24:03 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hello PatD! How are you? There were several Latvian nights even before that first one I attended. Salam hasn't attended any of them. Those times I spent with you wily Brits were great fun, and I agree, too short. Love, Marianne

Subject: Re: Latvian night From: PatD To: Marianne Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 13:44:24 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Marianne,thanks for clearing that up. Just goes to show that those who were there are the only people who know what they're talking about. In any situation. Sorry PatC,didn't mean to embarrass you,just got an attack of internet reefer madness. Although I tend to agree with Jim on this,if you're right,Rawat has a spider working for him. Yuck.

Subject: I'm just a detective, PatD From: PatC To: PatD Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 15:09:02 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Where is a prosecuting attorney when you need one? It's not up to me to make a case. I hand my evidence to the prosecutor. Unfortunately we have two defense attorneys here and no prosecutors. Of course, I'm not sure but my main point is that Salam might as well be working for the cult disinformation specialists as the outcome is the same.:C)

Subject: God, I wish you wouldn't do that!! From: Jim To: PatC Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 12:01:15 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Pat, First, yes that's most definitely Salam's work. But, sorry, but can't you see all the unnecessary trouble you cause when you go out on a limb like this with all this identity stuff? You may be right but what if you're not? What if, for all his faults and all the coincidences, many of which might strike different reasonable people in a variety of ways, Salam is just who he says he is? Then haven't you just given his already paranoid mind a lifetime's justification for attacking you and acting so generally irresponsibly? Pat, you might be onto the biggest online ex community scoop in a long time. This could be bigger and better than 'Who's Rob?' (and 'Who's Rob? II: Behind the scenes with Bazza'. But it may also just be your imagination and throwing these suspicions out as bold allegations would be unfair and counter-productive were that so, don't you agree? I mean, come on, Pat. You're convinced that Salam, himself a CAC target, was actually behind that ugly tumourous site? Convinced, Pat? I don't know. Same with ZB who now 'admits' that he's really just old Twiz, Des Perado, Oliver again. Personally, unless there's really strong and compelling evidence linking these identities, I think the only way to deal with any of them is at face value. That's not to say your theories may not be both ingenious AND possibly even right. I'm particularly impressed by the evidence that Quiet is apparently that same unstable fellow we've known on and off for years here. Hats off to you entirely for sussing that ... if it's true. But I still think it's important to not overextend ourselves in self-defence when, really, it's the last thing we need to do. Pat, you, I, Gerry, JHB, Cynth ... the current crop that crazy Deborah and her friends are trying to villify, just never did anything wrong. Nothing. That's why none of these guys will debate us directly about their accusations because they know there's nothing really there, that it's all that empty. So why give them something real to complain about like a false accusation that we can't prove in any event? How was bowling? How was your birthday?

Subject: Apart from loosing a tooth From: PatC To: Jim Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 12:23:02 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: When I bit into a piece of toast, I had a wonderful birthday, thanks. I guess loosing teeth is just part of being 55. Salam may be exactly who he says he is and is simply insane enough to have totally lost the plot. Reading his website again made me realize just how idiotic and illogical he is. He may not be a cult agent provocateur but he might as well be for all the harm he has doen. He has simply used Selene, Sir Dave, Robyn and his the other members of his AG harem as useful idiots. They are mostly a foolish bunch and suckers for his brand of rebel without a clue persona useful idiots as Lenin would say. The whole Debacle made me think that I may be wrong about Salam because you know Deb and we have all now seen that people really can be more irrational than one could possibly imagine. Or was she a plant also? Just kidding but not about Salam. My real point is that the rebels without a clue might as well be agents provocateurs because the result is the same. But they are now marginalized and irrelevant because of the growing sanity on the forum. They pose no threat and are merely irritating like sewer flies. I didn't go bowling by the way but cooked a lovely dinner for myself: Italian, halibut with lots of fresh basil and a sprig of rosemary from the garden, zucchini, eggplant, lots of garlic of course, pasta and pesto, a salad of radicchio, olives and tomatoes, fresh sourdough bread and an oaky chardonnay and watched Law and Order afterwards - a take-off of the RC church scandals - excellent.

Subject: That sounds wonderful From: gerry To: PatC Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 12:54:35 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hope you had a great birthday, Pat and thanks for all your help and support. Mind if I steal your recipe? I'm cooking red snapper and have fresh rosemary and some of last year's dry basil. The garden has lots of oak leaf lettuce, green leaf and escrole waiting to be picked. We harvested radishes yesterday. Can you suggest a quick and easy dressing? I have pesto (frozen from last years crop) and pasta, so that's a go. I haven't baked bread in a couple weeks, though and have no starter. And Patty will want to swill beer, the little lush :)

Subject: Do a quick bread From: PatC To: gerry Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 12:59:45 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Have you got any lemons and mayonnaise in the house? Quick dressing. Lots of crushed and minced garlic, lemon juice, a dash of worcestershire sauce and as much mayo as you need. Drizzles the lemon juice and worce..etc sauce slowly into mayo, stirring to keep smooth. Add garlic and salt and pepper to taste. BTW Red snapper is endangered but halibut is not.

Subject: how dinner's shaping up... From: gerry To: PatC Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 18:51:16 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Patty is poaching the endangered red snapper in fresh vegetable stock with two sprigs of rosemary. She's decided on a balsamic vinegerette (sp) dressing for the fresh garden salad. And-get this-aloo paratha (Indian style potato stuffed flat bread) made with spelt flour. Did I mention the buckwheat blueberry muffins for breakfast and the home made mulligatany (sp) soup for lunch? So, not only does my live-in girlfriend support me financially, she's a hell of a cook besides working full time and attending college half time and carrying a 3.97 in Information Technology. I married well. Oops. :)

Subject: Sounds delicious From: PatC To: gerry Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 21:04:29 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Vinaigrette and mulligatawny. I don't think your snapper's endangered anymore. By now it's probably being bio-recycled in a very politically correct and sensible way. It's nice not to waste anything. We were so busy today that we ordered Chinese take-out.

Subject: Re: A Critical View of the Ex-Premie Scene From: Thorin To: Cynthia Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 09:30:09 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Fwiw I read the site in detail (even printed it on expensive paper) and I can quite honestly say that most of the stuff printed there does NOT find any form or resonance with me. I have been reading Forum 7 for ages (after having read EPO in great detail, starting in 1999). A few things: 1. All my posts have been warmly received even if I have taken a divergent view from some of the regulars. 2. I have never ever felt that I have been subjected to mental abuse from any of the posters on F7. On the contrary I welcome feedback that points out any logical or common sense deficiencies that I display. 3. I have never made secret of the fact that I continue to meditate regularly and have never been challenged on this point. So what if many others feel that meditation is at worst a dangerous exercise or at best an exercise in self-hypnosis. For me meditation works and works well particularly with the release of the shackles of a belief system that does not stand up to srutiny. 4. There are indeed many regulars on this forum, some of which obviously have been around for a long time. There are new regulars and some of the old regulars have moved on. Nothing of this implies that there is an agenda that is set in stone. F7 is a variable and dynamic place that allows followers of Maharaji, former followers of Maharaji, aspirants and any others to congregate and share their experiences and perspectives. By its very nature the belief system of Maharaji is subjected to common sense and logical thinking. I welcome that. It is a pity that many practising premies that come to F7 seem unable to engage fully and indeed seem only to want to make inane remarks. There are some exceptions (e.g. Harry, CPG). I personally would welcome more like them – not to attack but to further understand my inheritance. 5. I find particular 'old time regulars' to be a great resource - their bull shit detector skills are needed. 6. I know of many instances where helping hands are provided for followers of Maharaji who wish to have a dialogue with former followers away from a public forum. By its nature these contacts are not disclosed publicly. Personally I am not at all surprised that such a site (a critical view of the ex-premie scene) has come into existence. The clarity that is shown on F7 and EPO will cause a reaction. Always has, always will. The ex-premie 'movement' has nothing to fear with attacks such as this as there is no 'movement', there is no committee, there is no ex-cult, simply a gathering of people that wish to share their experiences and perspectives. warmly, Thorin

Subject: ****BEST**** From: Loaf To: Cynthia Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 08:29:37 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Whoever wrote that asks some very penetrating questions and voices the concerns of all of those who are NOT threatened by things NOT being Black or White. My first reaction was to read it with an expression on my face as if i had been slapped... I thought it Spot on ! The Question must be asked... why does it hit me as a striking post.. i mean its hardly brave... but the problem is that when you put your name to something like that you would probably get your face bitten off by the more dogmatic. And yet that post dares to say things which I have felt, but dare not say. Thats cos I am a coward ! I have always tried to make my posts here personal and sincere. I have no axe to grind with either camp... and cerytainly I have come to regard it as my duty to post here stuff which is personal - in the hope that it might encourage others to feel safer to do so. Recent exes was a much needed sanctuary for me when I was Extremely sensitive and scared.. scared of maharaji, scared of jim.. just nervous.... but gradually after posting stuff there I would post it here too... until now I largely post here. Jim I have even come to like ! re the spirituality bit.. My own take is that things have mellowed here a lot since Mike Dettmers came on the scene.. and there is plenty of pro-meditation discussion, but nevertheless the posted anaysis rang bells in me. I guess its a Jim question mostly.. and personally I have gone from finding him very intimidating and bullying when I was a sensitive new Ex, to now, my skin being is a bit thicker, when I like him betterer. But NO one person dominates this space unless we let them. What has happened to my sentences ! I think the KEY for me is that PREMIES are UNUSED to having people disagree with them. As a PWK I would retreat from arguement into a 'Knowing arrogance' called Experience. That habit, and the fragility which it engenders in the ego and the intellect is why people like Jim are SO SCARY at first... and also why they are SO VALUABLE. BUT Dont lets make it personal. EVER. Loaf

Subject: Best example of a passive aggressive asshole From: Marshall To: Loaf Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 09:38:32 (PDT) Email Address: none Message: What? This kind of revisionist sludge makes me ill. It's the classic tactic of an abuser. Switch the blame around to the victim. Yes victim, that's what anybody who ever swallowed any of ratwit's lies is, a victim. Now anonymousie or whoever wrote this piece of crap expects the so called 'ex-premie faction' to defend it's actions, while the real troublemaker, Ratwit continues on, unabated. It's basically just a more complicated, more wordy, more mindfilled way of accusing ex's of being 'whining loosers' for talking about the bad experiences they had following a fraudulent, corpulent, embarassment. The ex-premie who doesn't just 'walk away' is viewed as the problem, not the rabid bhakti juju addict who must constantly attempt to defend their utterly defenseless position.

Subject: BEST??? I don't think so... From: Cynthia To: Loaf Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 08:45:24 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: This is another attack on ex-premies. How can you say it's a BEST OF? Loaf, this site is anonymous. In my view it is a retaliation by someone who believes they've got some kind of superior perspective of what happens here and what's written on EPO. I disagree with you completely.

Subject: It rang bells with me, thats all From: Loaf To: Cynthia Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 08:54:27 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It sounded 'true'. Thats all i can say. Dont start making this seem like a group thing... an ATTACK on EX Premies... I dont think so, i think it was quite an articulate analysis based on how a person felt.. but I will read it again.

Subject: You musta been drunk, Loafie From: gerry To: Loaf Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 09:17:45 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It is inaccurate, insulting, poorly written and stupid. And it 'rings a bell' with you? Well that is quite a step back from 'agreement' don't you think? So you agree we are 'brainwashing' people here? I am so pissed at you for this that you better explain line-by-line just how you agree with this whole statement or I'm gonna do something I never did before: block your ass for being such an unthinking, uncritical idiot.

Subject: Re: You musta been drunk, Loafie From: Livia To: gerry Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 12:05:30 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I've just read Gerry's next post and changed my mind about what I was going to say. Please ignore this! It's all fine now. Love, Livia

Subject: I dunno what to think From: Loaf To: gerry Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 09:57:07 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: there is nothing to say gerry. Block me by all means. I cannot defend my initial reaction.. i am simply expressing it. I dont have any arguement. I have knee-jerk reactions to things... I havnt been encouraged to THINK about the way I feel for nearly 20 years - and suddenly you expect me to make sense !! If my post offends thee, pluck it out. It was just my initial response. I have a problem with 'authority figures' having been fucked up by one for half my life. I have a problem with 'Peer pressure' having been pressurised into a state of belief for 20 years.. without knowing it. HENCE this analysis rang some bells with me. I dont want to join a club, or tow the party line. I want to come to terms with what has happened in MY Life without pressure from anyone... most especially people in authority and with their hand on the blocking button. I KNOW that my perspective on all this stuff is wonky and personal... but its all I have. I HAVE felt pressure here in the past, rightly or wrongly. It is a FACT that I have felt it. But..as I said.. emerging RECENTLY from a 18 years of life spent 'FEELING' and 'KNOWING' does not mean I will see things the same way as people who either dipped in and out for a few years in the 70s - and who have had my 18 years to get their head round things. I value this place enormously, and if you block me.. thats fine. I think you are just knee jerking... like me. BUT I still think the issues raised in that analysis could be looked at. HAVE New and wavering Exes FELT intimidated to post here ? YES Should they still ? I dont think so. But people need time to get their heads around what for some is a massive trauma and upheaval... I have great sympathy for the many wavering exes who are reluctant to dismiss all the good things they have enjoyed with Knowledge,but still need to recognise that they have outgrown him. Things are sometimes grey in transition. oh I dunno. perhaps **BEST** was a bit strong... but it seemed to make sense to me when I read it. I am willing to learn the error of my ways.

Subject: Re: I dunno what to think From: gerry To: Loaf Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 10:46:22 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Loafie, Of course mine was a knee-jerk response. I wrote a long, line-by-line rebuttal of the entire website contents and lost it somehow! I think I was more pissed at that than you. I'm not blocking you, just blowing off steam. Sorry. But no apology for my strong disagreement with your initial positive reaction. If I try to convince otherwise I'll be accused of 'brainwashing' you to the 'party line.' I'd rather hope you'd reconsider things on your own. I think I understand what you mean when you say it 'rang some bells for you.' You felt something. All I can say is this whole topic needs to be approached from an intellectual point of view and not with the heart. I very much admire your emotional intelligence and heart connection, which I believe to be a real thing. I have absolutely no problem with you or anyone else enjoying the many proven benefits of meditation. It's the 'spiritual' spin and interpretation people place on these experiences that causes all the mischief.

Subject: thanks gerry From: Loaf To: gerry Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 11:26:31 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: the heart' issue is lethally and dangerously subjective by which entire nations and Premies are manipulated. I cannot see clearly beyond my own responses... I must have mis-read the 'analysis' entirely cos I DIDNT read it as an 'anti-ex' thing ! I think its fair to say that we are equally susceptable to the dynamics of groups and 'petty nationalisms' as are the PWSKs - the major difference is that we are having this conversation without(hopefully) wondering what someone else will THINK. This is a core issue for me. Dominant people (in this arena of life especially) make me want to run away and hide. My feelings as a young ex in late 1999 were so brittle that my Default was not Fight, but Flight. practicing the techniques made me hyper sensitive. being constantly 'reminded' that 'THIS WORLD was no place for me' made me hyper sensitive.. The Urge (nurtured by M) to fly from the rough and tumble of the world lead people straight back to the suckling comfort of his lotus feet. 'daddy forgive me' is a deep rooted freudian response. I cant turn this 'fragility' on and off.. and I cannot expect other people to either, which is why my tendency is to include rather than blame or attack. i am learning a lot by being here and I think we all are. The premie Operating system which he installed and nurtured in me is evolving and adaptuing and growing teeth and claws as well as real compassion. Who knows what will come next ? I think I need a hug and a kick up the arse !

Subject: Think about this, then. From: Marshall To: Loaf Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 10:45:50 (PDT) Email Address: none Message: Lighten up Loafie. Gerry is only joking, he's not going to block you. Now you are comparing the web administrators 'authority' with the man who conned you into believing he was the 'lord of the Universe'? Because Gerry 'has his hand on the blocking button'? Can you see what a stretch that is? Ratwit said that you could not breathe without him! I don't care for authority figures either, but come on now. You must have woke up on the wrong side of the bed or something. I've commented on this before but basically it's to bad if some super-fragile lurkers are afraid to post. Like you said that is what the recent ex's site is for. This site however: No censorship! No watering down! No holds barred! EPO/forum, Forever!

Subject: I actually quite like the idea of being blocked From: LOLOAF To: Marshall Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 11:28:07 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I think I would have made a lovely martyr

Subject: Hi Loafie From: Marianne To: LOLOAF Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 12:33:40 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I've read through this entire thread, and all of your musings. You're absolutely entitled to your opinion, whatever it may be. The thing that rubbed me a bit the wrong way was your comment that the article was articulate. Loafie, please read it again. A good piece of scholarship it isn't! The whole thing is filled with misspellings and poor grammar. Not only that, it purports to be some sort of analytical piece on the so called ex-premie movement. The author (my money is on Quiet) relies on undisclosed data -- emails, posts, etc. No further information is given about the 'sources' upon which this person relies. Really, the whole thing is just a long post with someone's opinion -- which is attempting to masquerade as a 'study'. The author is entitled to his/her opinion too, though I completely disagree with it. The whole thing is just an attempt to create divisions between people. The idea that exes are brain washing people! What a crock of garbage. The only person who needs their brain washed is the author. Marianne

Subject: I DARE not read it again From: Loaf To: Marianne Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 12:37:49 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I am scared that if I read it again I will feel horribly embarrassed !!! I dont mind looking stupid in everybody elses eyes... but I couldnt bear it if I found out it was true !! Gerry can you delete me ?? How do i get out of this hole ? Digging furiously, Loaf

Subject: Then read this........... From: PatC To: Loaf Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 12:48:09 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ......and tell me if you find the style (or lack of) similar. Just a quickie. I want to say that I don't favor banning posters of forums, whatever the poster is. I did not vote to ban anyone, in fact I wasn't aware that there was a poll. Considering the result, my voice would not have made a difference. I will however make an exception in this case and stand in support of banning or blocking the said individauls. They are simply disruptive. Jim is obviously in need of dire brain re-examination of his adiction to posting non-stop on forums and PatC compulsive manner of shifting what he says like an iguana. Fights have happened in the past but not the way that have been going on. And to them that think otherwise, tell me what is so homophobic about asking a poofter married to another poofter whether he is the man or woman in the family. Until now I don't know the answer to this question and the reason is simply. The poofters comsider themselves to be the vitums of society. I did not tell them to be poofters, they want to be poofters and when they approach me and I ask for clarification they claim that I mistreated them. Denial is denial, whhether you are straigh, bent or an alien from Neptune. Treating people as if they don't exist, retards, braindeads is a NO GO in my world and I simply retaliate in any which way regardless, so take that ZeeZee, and I need to repeat to you the fact that exes are split because that is what they are and banning Jim [the symbol of abuse] is one issue that many people have voiced concern] As for what you want to do [SD], your the MAN of the house and we are the guests, ban us, flamme us and send us to hell. Back to my hole.......... That was posted on AG by Salam.

Subject: Re: Then read this........... From: Loafie To: PatC Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 13:12:02 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Pat I dunno what it is all about really. It doesnt matter much to me who wrote it. I dont know who these people are really. I just have a lot to think about.

Subject: Don't worry your pretty head about it, Loafie From: PatC To: Loafie Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 13:15:17 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: This is for us anti-cult sleuths. Us pitbulls are here to defend you. :C)

Subject: Loafie, don't worry about it... From: Cynthia To: Loaf Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 12:46:36 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Loafie, I do understand how at first glance you related to maybe a couple of the issues of spirituality posed on that site, especially based on your difficulties with spirituality upon leaving the cult. Don't worry about it, please. And don't be embarrassed either. It's not that big of a deal. Take a deep breath and relax, I've been known to say some things I regret:) Love, Cynthia

Subject: Re: Loafie, don't worry about it... From: PatC To: Cynthia Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 13:12:37 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Funny how that site was announced on the premie forum. Only CD can see the IP# of the poster and he's either in a daze in in cahoots. It was meant to confuse people. That was the whole point of the website. I've been following Roupells' plotting and scheming with Catweasel on LG since I blocked them from here. Of course he can't help boasting that he is a cult agent provocateur which is what got him exposed in the first place. A tidbit for him on LG: Yea deb, that's true...but I'm keeping my bells muffled right now -just watching them squark and squark. It really is funny but rather pathetic and there's so much blabber one suddenly realises that one doesn't want to give them that much time, even just looking and laughing. After all, there's a lot funnier things to enjoy. We're just off to Tony L's party so I'll be well smashed by tonight. he he (said he sounding like a total netnurd) Not sure whether to raid the Nuttererbox when I get back online or not. In fact...Cat...I know they are eagerly awaiting our next visits (known ones that is) and so I am holding back. Maybe we should just not bother at all, at least for awhile. What do you think? Why give them what they want now and play into their hands? Wasn't Knowledge enough?

Subject: Squark, Squark, Squark... From: Cynthia To: PatC Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 13:19:12 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hmmm...interesting. I guess we should expect some unwanted 'visitors' soon.

Subject: Re: Squark, Squark, Squark... From: PatC To: Cynthia Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 13:24:10 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hmmm...interesting. I guess we should expect some unwanted 'visitors' soon. --- We just had them in the form of another Roupell creation, Salam, and his nutty website.

Subject: PAT -- STOP THAT!!!!!!!!!!! From: Jim To: PatC Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 13:31:07 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hmmm...interesting. I guess we should expect some unwanted 'visitors' soon. --- We just had them in the form of another Roupell creation, Salam, and his nutty website. --- Christ!

Subject: Sorry, old chap From: PatC To: Jim Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 13:35:13 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I guess you just think enough like a net-savvy teenager. :C)

Subject: Maybe not THE smoking gun From: PatC To: PatC Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 16:24:23 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: but food for thought: Catweasel on LG: ''The Bodgies have blocked my IP at F7.Duhhh! I'll just have to use another!'' Salam to Catweasel: ''funny on that one, I guess they will never figure out how you do it. It's too funny, I know how but won't say. hehehehe''

Subject: About spirituality From: Sir Dave To: Loaf Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 10:30:28 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: If you are blocked, you can always go to The ANYTHING GOES forum. Mind you, I don't think Gerry's going to block you. You musta just caught him on a bad day. I disagree with the brainwashing mentioned on that web page in question, also with the notion that ex-premies are afraid of ''spirituality'' whatever that means. I think spirituality has become a much more personal thing now amongst ex-premies and rather than flaunting it in public, they are keeping it to themselves. Personally, I can't for the life of me see how Maharaji and spirituality could ever be connected. But maybe I'm thinking of the old fashioned sort of spirituality. For me, incidentally, my spirituality or belief is very similar to that of the ''Spiritualist Church'' or those people who hear and see things from beyond. Having had a few experiences of communications from the next world I feel a great sense that what we do here has great importance, both for ourselves and for many other people, both living and passed on.

Subject: Get lost, Dave From: Jim To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 12:32:51 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dave, Get lost. You have no business being here, None. How dare you block me and Pat and actually encourage those nutbars to flame and tell lies about us which is exactly what you've done: I have blocked Jim and PatC. If anyone wants to talk about them, they are welcome to. I mean, there's no law against it. I know you scoff at the notion that there's anything like a common goal here, ever was, but that just shows how shallow you are. Every last thing we've done together served that common goal. Whether it be contributing money, work, information, support or just plain time and attention, we who found in each other fellow ex followers of this particular cult have several common purposes, not just one. You yourself have often expressed your own interest in them as well. Thus you, too, have wanted to expose Maharaji for deceiving us as he did, to confront him for exploiting us and to throw up as big a warning sign as we could for anyone else still caught by or even now approaching the trap of the Lord of the Universe. You, too, have joined in and benefitted from the deconstruction and analysis of what we underwent, how and why in the cult. You, too, have enjoyed the camaraderie and simple human pleasure of this righteous joint enterprise. Something to do, in any event, a little nostalgia, a few laughs. Why not? Now, Dave, I consider you nothing but a traitor. On a limited cyber level I thought you were my friend and yes, as a friend, I feel completely betrayed by you and can't believe that you have the gall to continue to post here when you've blocked one of the FA's of this site from your own and, as evidenced above, encouraged others to spread lies and hatred about him. Likewise for me, too, of course, but your hypocrisy with respect to Pat is just that much greater. It starts when your ironically misnomered forum, Anything Goes, becomes the playroom for a few exes who care, of course, about the real thing that's brought any of us together online but who also want to just fool around a bit. Maybe, like Selene or Eb, they want to cut their teeth writing a bit, maybe even indulge in some fantasy personas. Hell, it's fun, right? Take on accents, names. Talk about something.... hell, talk about nothing. Surreal Simon could fit right in without missing a beat. And why not? Who's to say exactly why some people develop this habit or that? But they do and after some time there are AG regulars and others, like me, who just joined in from time to time when there was some OT issue I wanted to talk about. 9/11 and then the middle east became chronic issues for debate on AG. Indeed, AG served a key role post 9/11 as there was too much interest to ignore politics here, yet too much emotion to discuss politics without completely swamping the forum (which does, after all, have another purpose) and tearing apart the basic core of goodwill and commonality binding us. Not a cult, as some ridiculously stupid people say, but a group of people with common interests, goals and concerns. All cults may be one of those but each one of those sure ain't a cult! AG served another purpose too and that was an off-sides arena to hash out interpersonal conflicts as they arose without necessarily bleeding all over the forum here which, like I say, has another purpose altogether. I think even the most knee-jerk 'free speech' advocate amongst us would have to concede, for instance, that if the forum was always overwritten with collateral interpersonal arguments it would be, at minimum, harder to relate to for new people who don't know the players or the issues. New people do know the players and issues in the bigger picture here, the essential examination and discussion of the Maharaji cult, so it makes sense to keep the runway clear, to some extent, and AG served that purpose too. Most recently, however, AG got particularly nasty as some of its regular denizens took a turn for the worse. Salam was always ornery. Just ask Salam, he'll tell you. Orney, unstable, misanthropic. He needed help a year ago and several of us were there for him. But that was a long time ago, wasn't it? Since then, 9/11, and Salam, like many other ex, has views about the middle east that are strongly opposed, to say the least, from many others'. None of us in those discussions could or maybe even wanted to keep our emotions in check. Salam, however, lost all control. He didn't just disagree with something us Israel supporters said. In my case, at least, he twisted everything I said beyond recognition and just quit being logically responsive. Compare, for instance, with Dermot who also got into some heated arguments with the likes of me, Pat, Jethro, Jerry, perhaps others. The arguments, hot as ever, were at least on point and rational. There was always a thread that both parties held onto that allowed them to pull the other back to some common rational perspective, to keep the communication viable. But Salam, for whatever reason, seemed to want to throw his end of the thread into the centre of the table in defiance. Then he'd sit there smouldering, all hope of rational dialogue abandoned. Salam then started a non-stop, irrational attack, first on Pat, then on me. He completely, willfully twisted my posts and no one could make him stop. It was nuts. In fact, Salam started writing all sorts of lies and ... well, completely, ugly lies -- I don't know what else to call them -- about the forum and Pat in particular. You, of course, didn't bat an eyelash. What a natural magnet, then, to attract Deborah who has really, as anyone with half a brain can see, lost it. Poor, Poor Deb. I don't know what her real problem is but she definitely has one. Let me tell you something about her. Deborah has no idea where any of her family is. None. She hasn't just lost contact, she claims, at least, to not know where a single stitch is save for one distant uncle in Calgary. And much as I encouraged her to, she was reluctant to even contact him. She still hasn't, I bet. Now, ask yourself, what could possibly be behind that? Can you imagine? She lives as a middle-aged permanent resident in a youth hostel of all places. She doesn't have a dime to her name and yes, I did indeed lend her several hundred dollars not once but twice to keep her from being evicted while she awaited her next student loan. Deborah talks about all the wonderful friends and social life she had in Miami and nothern california. Where are her friends? In all the time I knew her here in town she didn't seem to have any. Not one. I invited her to a few parties, tried to introduce her to some people, always welcomed her to bring along anyone she wanted. Sorry, but I got the distinct impresson that there is no one for Deborah. Not here, not there, not anywhere. Now why is that, Dave? What do you think's going on here? Do you see any mental health issues here or not? Okay, so at one point, when I'd enough of Deb's threats to go to the police with some completely stupid complaint that Gerry had threatened her, after I warned her that I'd spill the beans if she didn't shut up, at which point she obliquely conceded that she had in fact said something but that it didn't count as a threat because it was 'only verbal', I told the truth about her own threat to have Pat killed, of all things. Now, you yourself have said that, between the two of us, you believe me, not her. Yet my so-called 'sociopathic' and 'completely deluded insanity' are behind that 'lie' according to her. And this is the kind of talk about me you encourage while you've blocked me from responding! Now Deb's telling another specific lie, namely that she has emails and posts proving that the 'inner circle' don't want any media attention to our cause because we're afraid of being accused of libel. That's a lie, Dave, but it's free to fester on AG, unchallenged because, once again, you've allowed it. Then there's Selene. You asked on Symp what she had done to bring her into the fray and promised to 'defend to the end' her honour. Well, I answered you, hoping, I guess, for a rational discussion on the issue. I told you quite specifically that Selene, who herself only exitted with the help of EPO and the forum was, for some strange reason, joiing the monkey pileup on LG discouraging Isabella from talking rationally with me. Plus she was blowing air-kisses (Pat's term) with the very premies and trolls that were simultaneously leading that pileup. But you didn't defend her rationally. Rather, you just ducked. Likewise, with your own comment about how the real ex work is all done and only us 'church ladies' (another Pat coinage) were bothering to keep going. You ducked and hemmed and hawed and really just disparaged us further by not even having the common decency to discuss that insult openly and honestly. When the CAC site went up and they had that picture of your daughter, we all shared your concern, cared for you, and respected your wishes to fold completely before the menacing glare of the cult. You had to do what you had to do. We all honoured that. And that, Dave, was because we honoured and respected you. Here, now, I feel completely, one hundred per cent betrayed by you. When all it took from you was a little common sense and a clear head, instead you led with that capricious, self-important side you have. In the end, you chose the side of confusion and evasion. And now you've offered a sheltered environment to people like Deborah who, even you have admitted you think is a liar and who you yourself has seen can lash out in crazy paranoia. Shame on you, Dave. I don't know what else to say but shame on you indeed.

Subject: Can I co-sign your post? From: PatC To: Jim Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 12:41:06 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thank you for the taking the time to write that. Pointing out the obvious is always tedious. Thank you. I have always been able to post on AG even if I was blocked but have chosen not to because I am not welcome there (that's fine - I have no wish to be part of that club) and because it is an irrelevant backwater - Salam's personal swamp.

Subject: Me too.... From: Cynthia To: PatC Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 12:55:14 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: In the past I never looked at AG unless this forum was down and I recently posted when the ex-ex arguments took place. But I also feel betrayed by the double standard Dave has placed upon Jim and Pat by blocking them while others trash them there. I haven't been blocked yet, but David did tell me he would if I didn't post to his liking. I don't really care about that because as you aptly put it Pat, it is a backwater and holds no interest to me. The current friends of Dave at AG have been having some very nasty fun at my expense. So I've taken the advice of a lawyer friend from SF who told me to ignore them.:) And I've personally defrocked Dave of the 'Sir' title. Cynthia

Subject: Yep, you're psychic! :P [nt] From: PatC To: Cynthia Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 13:03:49 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Disgruntled Ex-Ex-Premies.... From: Cynthia To: gerry Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 09:36:41 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I am not surprised that this anonymous site so suddenly appeared on LG. How could anyone find it if it wasn't an inside job? Along with that on LG a site was posted by Mili which was sponsored by the Scientologists. The subject? Ted Patrick the former deprogrammer. When questioned on the credibility of the site because of the Scientology connection, Mili said basically it didn't matter because the information about Patrick is credible Here's the url on LG: http://www.religiousfreedomwatch.org/false_exp/patrick1.html On Rick Ross's website there is an excerpt from Snapping by Flo Conway and Jim Siegelman which explains the progression of his deprogramming techniques. I've posted that link here. If the Critique of Ex-Premie isn't a backlash then don't know what backlash means. Cynthia P.S. Ger...give Loaf a chance:) Ross Page On Ted Patrick from Snapping www.rickross.com/reference/deprogramming/deprogramming7.html

Subject: a point of view From: Livia To: All Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 08:02:35 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: On the basis of reading what's being said on the other forums, I'm getting the impression that we're being seen as a faction that doesn't allow any discussion of the subjects of meditation or spirituality. Personally I don't feel that's true; I've read a number of long threads here where people have expressed views favourable to meditation, including the Knowledge. I don't think it would be a healthy situation if people here felt in any way afraid or embarrassed to admit that they still practise the meditation, enjoy it and feel some benefit from it. Frankly I would be surprised if anyone really was embarrassed or afraid, unless they read some of the conversations between Jim and Dep and got the idea that Jim would jump down their throat if they mentioned views favourable to meditation. I've mentioned quite a few times that I do still meditate and haven't been attacked for it. I suspect Jim only attacks when he sees what he perceives as lazy unexamined concepts masquerading as indisputable reality. As he is a rationalist and an atheist I understand where he's coming from - my partner has very similar views and we agree to differ on certain subjects! Anyway, to come to my point - I would really welcome a discussion on meditation, and all the views pro and con. After all, it's what got us all into this in the first place, and we must all have feelings about what the meditation was/is to us, and where we are in relation to it now. I would also be interested to know if anyone here has read a book called 'The Artist's Way' by Julia Cameron. I've just started reading it and am finding it quite illuminating. Cameron runs workshops designed to awaken and stimulate creativity. Her main idea seems to be based on what she calls the 'morning pages' and the 'artist's date'. The morning pages are something you do every morning - basically you write 3 pages daily in a stream-of-consciousness fashion, basically whatever comes out. The artist's date is something you keep with yourself weekly - basically you try to take yourself off once a week and do something potentially inspiring. (Visit a gallery, see a movie etc. - whatever you feel like you'd really like to do that week.) Anyway, apparently the daily writing clears your head so that another sort of consciousness frees itself up; the sort of consciousness that inspiration and creativity come from. And the artist's date is supposed to give you some external inspiration. Anyway, apparently it works. Writers lose their writer's block, dancers find themselves inspired to dance freely again and composers start composing again. It all sounds a bit too good to be true, I know, but there's probably something in it. Interestingly, she likens the 'morning pages' as having a similar effect to meditation. Anyway, reading it has triggered off an interesting thought process, in that the practise of satsang/service/meditation probably did originally have the effect of altering our consciousness for the better. I do remember burst of creativity and inspiration in the early days. Some really great music was written, plays were written and acted - stuff happened. As Thorin posted a couple of days ago - without Maharaji continually attempting to bring the focus back back to him we could have gone on possibly as a fairly inspired community of people, living with awareness, creativity and even love. Especially if we had managed to turn it all outwards and used it as a genuine force of good in the world. The point I'm making is that the state of creativity that Julia Cameron is trying by her method to get people to achieve, is the same thing that we were all tapping into. It's a state of being, within us and eminently desirable and attainable. The argument here is that Maharaji never had the right to claim any monopoly on the enabling of that state. And also, of course, that he has made a vast amount of money on the back of his earlier claims to be Perfect Master, and the only one capable of enabling that state. As Bob Mishler said in the radio interview - he found it truly sad when he saw premies attributing the source of that state to Maharaji when it was clearly within them all along. The argument with premies is that they still consider Maharaji to be somehow behind that state. We here no longer do. Obviously it would be preferable if we could all live and let live, but it seems to be very difficult to do so. Some of the exes here wish to convince the premies that they are deluded re Maharaji, and in a cult, and some of the premies wish to persuade the exes that they have lost the plot and are in a new cult of their own making! This wouldn't matter only that the arguments seem to be becoming more and more embittered and unpleasant. Surely if most of us are primarily interested in attaining a state of clarity and awareness, these vitriolic disputes are unnecessary and becoming increasingly unproductive. I suppose the problem is that factions have now arisen and each 'side' has become more and more entrenched, with accusations of brainwashing on both sides. Brainwashing can't take place where there is free and open discussion, so all I'm trying to say here is let's make sure the discussion here remains truly free and open. After all, no one here wants to take on a new mindset, and clarity and awareness should always be the goal. (Without, however, becoming wishy-washyishly tolerant of obvious bullshit!) My view, for what it's worth, and probably muddlingly written, but it's a Sunday after all. Love to all, Livia

Subject: Getting back to you finally From: PatC To: Livia Date Posted: Mon, May 20, 2002 at 01:42:46 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You: ''Frankly I would be surprised if anyone really was embarrassed or afraid, unless they read some of the conversations between Jim and Dep and got the idea that Jim would jump down their throat if they mentioned views favourable to meditation. ''I've mentioned quite a few times that I do still meditate and haven't been attacked for it. I suspect Jim only attacks when he sees what he perceives as lazy unexamined concepts masquerading as indisputable reality.'' One of the reasons that I appreciate Jim so much is that he critiques the cult and spirituality in general from the POV of an ordinary person working in the ordinary world where BS does not hold up to scrutiny. Quite a few of us do that here which is why it seems so sad and strange when the premies here don't understand that. They do not realize that, from an ordinary rational person's perspective, they are in a peculiar cult. I still do the techs and I've talked a lot about meditation, more in the past than now, as I finally figured that I really did not like talking about it because I had not yet formulated my own thoughts and was simply modifying primitive pre-scientific concepts about it. One day, when I've found my own thoughts about it, I will write more. Jim has not attacked me about it but yes he has criticised Dep and others probably for what, as you put it so well, ''he perceives as lazy unexamined concepts masquerading as indisputable reality.'' I also can't stand being talked to as if I am expected to understand and make the same assumptions about this spiritual stuff. Jim knows Dep well and I feel is disappointed that his old friend is not more adventurous in his thinking. I know I find Dep painfully lazy - a nice enough guy but one who expects people to agree with him eventhough he makes no effort to think in anything but cliches. You again: ''Obviously it would be preferable if we could all live and let live, but it seems to be very difficult to do so. Some of the exes here wish to convince the premies that they are deluded re Maharaji, and in a cult, and some of the premies wish to persuade the exes that they have lost the plot and are in a new cult of their own making!'' Well, in everyday life, I do live and let live with the premies I know like sfjim and CT, which is why you don't find me arguing with them on LG. They're welcome to their religion. But the moment a premie comes here they must expect arguments. That's the whole purpose of this forum - to critique the cult. Not only ''some of the exes here wish to convince the premies that they are deluded re Maharaji, and in a cult.'' That's what most of us do. That's what we're here for and of course we expect the premie apologists to think the worst of us. You again: ''This wouldn't matter only that the arguments seem to be becoming more and more embittered and unpleasant. Surely if most of us are primarily interested in attaining a state of clarity and awareness, these vitriolic disputes are unnecessary and becoming increasingly unproductive.'' Back up - the arguments with premies aren't becoming more vitriolic. they've always been that way. Why? Because the only premies who have posted on F7 regularly are professional cult disinformation specialists. The last thing that they want is clarity. They come here to muddy the waters deliberately. This is not something that is only happening now and which you are beginning to observe. A quick scan of the archives will show you that it's been happening almost since day one of the ex presence on-line. Of course we want an atmosphere of intelligent questioning and discussion here. You, Jim, Cynthia and a dozen other exes provide that. I think you may still be laboring under the misunderstanding that the premies that you have talked to here and on LG are ordinary decent premies. That is not the case. The Docs and Cats are cult agent provocateurs. They are not here for open debate leading to clarity. They are here to stifle debate and muddy the waters. Most of the premies on LG are figments of Roupell/Doc's imagination. And, even if they are bona fide premies like California Premie Guy, they come off sounding like weasels. For instance he claimed to know Chuck and me but did not have the decency to email us and say hi. Regular decent premies don't post on the net. Even CPG was playing his own little game - probably wanting to show himself how confident he is that he is not in a cult and that he could hold his own against us. As for the faction of exes accusing us of stifling debate about spiritual matters - well, people like Deb and Salam used to once be the biggest scoffers at spiritual talk. I'm sure you've got your own ideas about what they are up to. I know that I am quite stumped at their about-face. I've got theories but...well, don't we all? Anyway, I really appreciate your lucid writing and sane perspective, Livia.

Subject: Let's be clear about this, though From: Jim To: Livia Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 13:05:51 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Livia, A truly interesting and fair post, as so many of yours are, and I'll take a look at the Amazon site at least about Cameron's book. Although I always thought that first post of the morning, where you're groggily jumping down the throat of a naive cartoon character was just the ticket for clearing my imagination's palate. :) But, to be clear, when you write: I suppose the problem is that factions have now arisen and each 'side' has become more and more entrenched, with accusations of brainwashing on both sides. Brainwashing can't take place where there is free and open discussion, so all I'm trying to say here is let's make sure the discussion here remains truly free and open. After all, no one here wants to take on a new mindset, and clarity and awareness should always be the goal. I just have to say that the cult, its leader, his followers and all of their friends can parrot back our accusations and criticisms all they want, it doesn't mean there's even a slight reason to take them seriously. As we all know, the only reason -- the only reason -- premies accuse us of being a cult or 'cult-like' is because we say that of them. The only reason they accuse us of 'brainwashing' is because we say that's what Maharaji did to us. Period. It's exactly like the classic little kid's retort, I know you are but what am I? but all the more pathetic seeing as these are supposedly adults talking about the arguably most important association in their lives, not little kids with no other way to defend themselves. Sure, it's good to remind ourselves that we should never curtail discussion about things that matter, never try to pressure anyone into thinking anything. But that's not happening here AT ALL. Take spirituality, for instance. Say, for argument's sake that I think it's worthless, dangerous and stupid. I hate it, hate it and hate it. Hate it with a passion that itself might seem over the top. That's just me. Mr. I-hate-spirituality. (This is hypothetical, don't forget :)) Then say there's someone else named Loaf, for instance. Loaf is so spiritual he's abandoned all punctuation AND grammar because they were too restrictive for what he 'really' had to say. (Loaf, again, this is just hypothetical. I could have made up names but I'm just borrowing yours and mine). Say we interact. Now what in the world is wrong with us, not just debating our various viewpoints but even doing so with passion, if it arises? Are we so scary to each other that we think someone's going to lunge out through their monitor and do some serious nose-tweaking? Maybe rough up our hair? Pull our ears? It's just discussion, for god's sake! If spirituality thrives best in the murkier shadows of innuendo, superstition, ambiguity and paradox, that's its problem. Hey, it had its day. This is the twentieth century now. It's time to rock! :)

Subject: Re: Let's be clear about this, though From: Livia To: Jim Date Posted: Mon, May 20, 2002 at 06:00:21 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Jim, thanks for that. And actually you made me lol with your image of lunging through monitors, hair pulling and nose tweaking. And yes, I know it's all in cyberspace and they can't really get you. But as Cynthia expressed so well on LG the other day - some of those posts over there are almost resonant of evil. I think I was just feeling a bit sensitive yesterday. I'd read a few of the premie posts over there and the vitriol of it all was beginning to get me down a bit. I mean, in my whole life I've never been called a bitch (doesn't mean I've never behaved like one I hasten to add - but nobody's ever called me one). Until Mili the other day. I mean, who cares, but when you've been having a bad day, as I had been that day, reading that barrage of insults against Cynthia, who I happen to think is wonderful, and you and PatC and me and in fact anyone who posts here and then goes over there, leaves you with a pretty unpleasant taste in your mouth. And then I felt I did have to question whether we do allow totally free discussion here - and in the final analysis I think we do, and I think I made that (fairly) clear in the post above. We just need to be aware that by jumping down the throat of anyone who retains unexamined attitudes about spirituality, we may unwittingly deter others of a sensitive disposition from posting - that's all. But yes, you're basically right, it's all healthy argument and debate, which can only be good in the end. And I suppose if you go over there and try to talk to that lot, you need a tough skin, and mine isn't, always. But I'm getting there! About Cameron's book - be warned - she has a fairly 'spiritual' outlook. But if you can ignore the references to God and spirituality, she makes some very good suggestions for awakening your creativity that make practical good sense and sound extremely user-friendly, and she uses some good psychotherapeutic techniques too. But you're right - posting here on a daily basis is also very good for sharpening up the mind and keeping the inspiration flowing! I think you personally might find the Cameron book a bit new-agey for your personal taste! Thanks for your infallible clarity and exactitude(!), and love to you Livia XX

Subject: Wrong on two counts Jim From: PatC To: Jim Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 21:09:46 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You said: ''Hey, it (spirituality) had its day. This is the twentieth century now. It's time to rock!'' It's the 21st century and rock's dead or at least on it's last legs. I hope. Please god. Please.

Subject: Err...Jim... From: Cynthia To: Jim Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 13:23:15 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I think it's now the 21st century. Isn't it? Want to argue?:)

Subject: Shit, I should have read you first [nt] From: PatC To: Cynthia Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 21:11:27 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Joke spoiler! [nt] From: Jim To: Cynthia Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 13:31:55 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Great post again, Livia From: PatC To: Livia Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 12:32:52 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'll get back to you on this one after the breaking news about Salam's latest mischief.

Subject: Re: a point of view From: AV To: Livia Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 09:31:13 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: One of the aspects of life with knowledge when I first became involved was the freshness of the experience that people were having; actions were voluntary and the spoken word was simple , immediate and innocent for the most part. As time went on, people became stiff, programmed, inarticulate (if they were allowed to speak) and formalised. Few people here discount the experience of meditation, and the well of inspiration satsang provided at one time; but the fetters and strictures of dogma and cultism eroded the natural and replaced it with the contrived, the forced and the manipulated. Rather than lead, we were bullied; when we should have been nurtured, we were subjugated and humiliated to the point where we doubted our own thoughts and feelings. Instead of being elevated to a point where we had a clear perspective of our existence, we became seperate, isolated and numb. Where we could have helped one another, we clawed over each other to get a front row seat. When we could have bought new clothes for our children, we bought an airline ticket to hall in a faraway land. When we needed to open up and empathise, we put up a pseudo-spiritual barrier of aloofness and rejected our place as givers in the human chain of give and take. Many are considering returning to maharaji? For what reason?

Subject: Re: a point of view From: Cynthia To: AV Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 09:58:46 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi AV, Many are considering returning to maharaji? For what reason? It is much easier to be a programmed cult-member than to look rationally at the facts of one's involvement in a cult. Self-examination is not an easy thing to do especially when one has spend years and often decades following a personality cult guru. In that respect many people who have tried to reject Maharaji no longer see it as viable because: 1. They did get involved with a cult which can be a shame-based experience to reveal to others in the real world as well as the world of premies; 2. It is much easier walk away from the exiting process and forget everything, i.e., live in denial, than to do an in depth self-examination of what happened to oneself while caught up in a cult; 3. Going back is easier than doing the above-mentioned self-examination because the emotional, spiritual, and intellectual repercutions can be quite painful at least in the beginning of the exiting process; 4. Currently there is an ex-ex-premie alliance which has formed among former forum posters and premies who post on LG. It's an alliance which, IMO, has evolved because of certain people who became disgruntled for personal reasons with individuals here on F7; 5. It's easier not to think and Maharaji condones not thinking, he encourages it; and 6. The belief system (Maharajism religion) is still too engrained and the resultant anger and hatred toward Maharaji and his cult are then projected onto EPO, and the Ex-Premies forum.

Subject: It's true about PAM's speaking out.... From: La-ex To: All Date Posted: Sat, May 18, 2002 at 15:56:25 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: As Disculta pointed out below, it does seem to be true for so many people who have now been able to exit the cult, that the biggest, or at least one of the biggest factors in their being able to exit and heal their life has been the first hand testimonies of people who actually spent time with maharaji himself. It there are people reading but not posting, and you have had first hand experiences with maharaji or ev that can help with the process, you should know that it can be very helpful to those who are needing and wanting to exit the cult... For myself, Michael Dettmers revelations were the most helpful, along with Donners and the Mischler interview.... I agree that the cult is pretty much finished in the west...at least that is what I'm picking up in the USA...but there still is a real need to help existing premies who are still in, to get out (remember, we all were premies once)....I also agree that maharaji needs to stand and account for what he has done, and epo is the most valuable tool for that right now..... Thank you to all those who have contributed in whatever way you have been able to...epo does make a difference, and maharaji knows it...

Subject: That agree with us From: Only the ones To: La-ex Date Posted: Sat, May 18, 2002 at 17:46:04 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The rest are irrelevant, no matter how many of them there are.

Subject: Come on now... Who or whom are 'us?' From: Tonette To: Only the ones Date Posted: Sat, May 18, 2002 at 18:45:30 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: And the rest, who are they? Then I can begin to understand what you mean by irrelevance to which you refer. This is a forum and there is anonymity here. Guaranteed. Won't you do the forum a favor and expound/clarify a bit what you just wrote? Obviously you gave your post some thought, how about giving said thought a few more type strokes. Awaiting your reply, Tonette

Subject: whoops, nt ignore From: Tonette To: Only the ones Date Posted: Sat, May 18, 2002 at 18:38:01 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: nt

Subject: Are you being sarcastic? From: Jim To: Only the ones Date Posted: Sat, May 18, 2002 at 17:52:16 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I wonder, do you have a name? Why not use it? Are you ashamed of what you just said? Then why hide? Hell, for me, I'd like to hear from any and all PAMs, no matter what they think. Wouldn't you? If they agree with me, fine. If they don't, great -- we can talk about it. Or does that scare you somehow?

Subject: Why I'm an angry ex-premie From: PatC To: All Date Posted: Sat, May 18, 2002 at 11:35:18 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Sir Dave recently posted a sermon saying that exism was finished; that it was time to move on. I sort of agreed with him. The cult is finished in the west insofar as no more significant expansion can take place anymore thanks to EPO and the ex movement. I felt that the only thing left to do now is to be here for any premies who leave. But then I catch a glimpse of something that makes me angry and I think to myself that the ex show isn't over till this fat man sings. I will keep at it until I see Rawat come clean, apologise, give back all the money that he stole from sincere premies under false pretenses and do some soul-cleansing penance. In other words, there are still wrongs to be righted and justice to be done. Most of the time I don't have anger toward him. A few weeks ago on LG one of my premie friends there asked what I was so angry about and I really hunted for something to say but could not find anything that made me feel any anger. Most of the time I just feel intellectually irritated at Rawat's scam but every now and then something is said here that triggers off some full-blown anger at him. In a thread below welcoming a newbie who wanted to know what made us leave, Lesley said: ''There was a line written by an ex about a batch of burnt cookies and not trusting Maharaji to peel a potato that struck a huge chord with me.'' Marshal responded: ''As I understand it the 'burnt cookies' crap started with gmj himself of all things. At a late 90's gathering gmj said that his current premies were akin to a 'batch of burnt cookies' and then he threatened to get a 'new batch' of premies. Raw and uncooked I suppose.'' Livia chimed in: ''Well that's nice, isn't it! He brainwashes us with a load of old Hindu concepts for 20 years and then when we find it hard to move on swiftly to the new revised model, suggests blithely that he'll drop us all in favour of a new batch he can brainwash with a different story. ''Then I suppose in a few years he'll need to get rid of that lot too and start on another lot, and so on and so on. ''The only ones that will stick around for the whole duration will be those who have totally taken leave of any integrity, ethics and selves they ever had, leaving nothing but a bare shell that he can manipulate into any shape he wants. ''Looking at what signs of life exist over at LG (with only a couple of exceptions) you can see the evidence plain and clear.'' Just reading this suddenly made me angry. The gall of this piece of low-life cognac-swilling, blonde-bonking, money-grubbing hypocrite hit me. I'd never thought of the burnt cookies satsang in quite that way. Of course he meant that we were a bunch of old hippies who had glommed onto his Hindu crap but were now obstacles to the expansion of his business because he had meantime re-invented himself as the CEO of his western firm. And Livia is absolutely right when she says: ''The only ones that will stick around for the whole duration will be those who have totally taken leave of any integrity, ethics and selves they ever had, leaving nothing but a bare shell that he can manipulate into any shape he wants.'' You have to be either a very self-loathing and dishonest person or completely selective in your understanding of what he says to stomach Rawat's crap. Yesterday I got a birthday email from a premie whom I have known for decades but who abandoned me when I told her I was leaving Rawat over a year ago. I have watched this dear friend deteriorate over the past few years from being one of the most original artists and free-thinkers into a squashed and broken and sadly lifeless empty shell. It is heart-breaking but there is nothing that I can do about it because she thinks of Rawat as the Master and herself as a burnt cookie who needs to be an invisible nonentity lest she become an obstacle in Rawat's way. The only thing that will cure her of this sickness is to realize that Rawat is the lardy doughboy that I now see him as. It's like trying to tell a battered wife that her husband is sick and twisted. The more I criticise the more she defends. This is the behaviour that we see on LG. Maybe the ''burnt cookies'' thingy isn't much to get steamed up about but it's little glimpses like that into Rawat's arrogance, selfishness and greed that suddenly give me a view of the whole picture and the revolting man that we once worshipped as the master. This show ain't over till the fat man sings. And he will sing if there is any justice. Hopefully after he has been exposed and fessed up he will then have to sing for his supper. Yes, I really loathe and detest Rawat.

Subject: Re: Why I'm an angry ex-premie From: Blondie To: PatC Date Posted: Sat, May 18, 2002 at 14:26:34 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Stay angry Pat, but do be careful in your rage not say hurtful things about the innocents - I MEAN THE BONKING REFERENCE lololo

Subject: Er, sorry Blondie From: PatC channeling Dagwood To: Blondie Date Posted: Sat, May 18, 2002 at 16:34:38 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I wasn't insulting the blondes but the bonker of blondes.

Subject: Re: Why I'm an angry ex-premie From: Inside Edition To: PatC Date Posted: Sat, May 18, 2002 at 12:56:37 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I feel EXACTLY the same way, Pat. I used to really believe that Rat-wat was the Lord. That's what I was looking for in the early 70's, and that's exactly what he was sold to me as. Now he says he never was - fucking unbelievable! Those remaining hard-core PAM's STILL DO believe he is the Lord (and are still kissing his feet in Amaroo), and are literally scared shitless to do anything whatsoever to piss him off and be cast out of the inner circle. I have seen this with my own eyes. Conversely, they will do ANYTHING he asks to stay in the inner circle, some of the UNSUCCESSFUL results of which we have seen right here in cyberspace. I believe in the Law of Karma, and I am definately going to stick around to watch the wheel come full circle. Rat-wat IS responsible for his actions, just like anyone else.

Subject: Of course they still believe he's god From: PatC To: Inside Edition Date Posted: Sat, May 18, 2002 at 19:20:13 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Even I did when I exed. I just figured so what if he's god - I still can't stand him. I'll just have to do without god. Why do I think that premies still think he is god? They won't say and do double back-flips to avoid talking about it. Why? Because they've been told by the Master not to have ANY concepts about who he is. He is ''you know who.'' Why do premies still think he is god? Because of the ''self-knowledge.'' The premies have already been conditioned by Rev Rawat's religion to associate the enjoyable ''feelings'' which the meditation releases with something divine and to then attribute it to the massa. Those same ''feelings'' stimulate the imagination. They are trapped by their own superstitious imaginations and limited by their intellectual laziness and moral cowardice as I was until recently.

Subject: Re: Of course they still believe he's god From: Ismic To: PatC Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 01:53:05 (PDT) Email Address: ismic@btopenworld.com Message: Those same ''feelings'' stimulate the imagination. They are trapped by their own superstitious imaginations and limited by their intellectual laziness and moral cowardice as I was until recently. Are you really suggesting that you have never experienced true love and devotion? Progress prc.org

Subject: Re: Why I'm an angry ex-premie From: Cynthia To: Inside Edition Date Posted: Sat, May 18, 2002 at 13:32:13 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I also feel this way. There are so many, many things Maharaji has done that stripped innocent people of their lives. When I read the Mishler interview today it struck me again that he's never cared about anyone but himself, and that includes his wife and kids. He uses and abuses again and again. Who the hell does this Prem Pal Rawat thinks he is anyway? He comes to my country, sets up shop, gets filthy rich on me and thousands of others' hard labor and donations, then has the unmitigated gall to say we're burnt cookies? I don't think so, Maharaji. The more I learn about Prem Pay Rawat the more I understand that he is nothing but an ego driven two year old who lives in a middle-aged body. The ironical thing is that I never wanted a guru and never cared about the hindu trappings either. Then the premies have the equally unmitigated nerve to come here to harrass us! That pisses me off. All Maharaji ever did during the time of my deepest dedication and devotion to him is ridicule everyone around him. He told us were were nothing. He deprived us of normal lives through manipulating our devotion to him. He enforced that by insisting we live in ashrams in poverty, working to support his ass. That is pure narcissism. The fact that he is obsessed with wealth, has the nerve to publish a vanity piece in a an obscure magazine (Leaders) as if he is a 'somebody' in this world really has angered me. Maharaji is a nobody who has injured so many people just in my country, the U.S., as well as all over the world. Prem Rawat owes ME. He owes so many people who gave up their lives for him then flippantly discounts us all as burnt cookies or rotten vegetables. He is a gutless wonder. Everything wrong that has happened over these 30 years lies in his lap yet he is such a coward he is unable to accept any responsibility for anything he has have done. He is the lowest form of life that could exist in a human body. A parasite. And I used to PRAY to IT. This anger doesn't occupy my entire life, I've gone beyond that. Yet, when I think about just DECA, just that one huge illegal and warped 'project' I want to spit in his face. It's not over. This is far from over. I agree, let him pay us back for his crimes. Let him work as a commercial pilot. Strip him of his riches, cars, and golden toilets. This is far from over.

Subject: Uh, Cynth, hate to nitpick, but... From: gerry To: Cynthia Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 19:03:54 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Let him work as a commercial pilot. Would you want to fly with Rawat at the wheel?

Subject: Re: Why I'm an angry ex-premie From: DeProGram Anand JI To: Cynthia Date Posted: Sat, May 18, 2002 at 23:15:51 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I am an angry ex-premie because I was lied to and decieved. I was a sincere seeker of truth, love and higher consciousness. I was given false hopes and exploited for what I believed was a noble cause, to establish World Peace. This happened I believe because M allowed himself to be corrupted by the absolute power that he had over his followers and he used his absolute power to influence i.e. (the belief that he was a true spirtual master or incarnation of God) to feed his insatiable appetite for wealth, power and prestige. To those of us who believe in God this is the worst kind of betrayal. Because it robs us of our faith and our ability to trust in a higher power. I believe there is a special place in hell for those that prey on and exploit others sincere desire to live a life more closely attuned the wisdom of their higher selves.

Subject: I am Curious X From: gerry To: DeProGram Anand JI Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 12:07:45 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Howdy DeProGram Anand Ji, I know a little about the mind/brain thingy and I'll go for 'heart intelligence' as the seat of emotions, and now you're telling me I gotta get attuned to this other feller also, this 'higher self' guy? I don't know, maybe I don't even have one. Ever think of that? I did meet a pookah once, though. So I got that going for me. Which is good. :)

Subject: Re: I am Curious X From: gerry To: gerry Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 14:57:24 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: A pookah is a Celtic spirit. I guess the famous one is 'Harvey' of the Jimmy Steward movie with the same name. That's not the one I met. I didn't catch this pookah's name. I met him very late one night at a bar in an old Irish tavern on the Lower East Side...

Subject: Oh, well then you're definitely spiritual :P [nt] From: PatC To: gerry Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 15:11:00 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: What the hell is a pookah? [nt] From: PatC To: gerry Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 12:31:37 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Hi! From: Cynthia To: DeProGram Anand JI Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 10:36:10 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: How are you? I just noticed your post and wanted to say I've missed you here and hope you are doing well. Love, Cynthia

Subject: Mishler telephone transcript now on EPO From: JHB To: All Date Posted: Sat, May 18, 2002 at 06:28:54 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The telephone interview between two recently deprogrammed premies and Bob Mishler is now on EPO. In some ways it is more direct than the Radio interview, in that Bob knows he's talking to people who understand the context. Many thanks to Thorin for converting the tape to mp3 format and uploading the files; cq for his excellent and painstaking transcription; Steve (not a forum poster) for keeping the tape all these years and letting us have a copy; and of course Bob, Peter and Ellen for having the conversation in the first place. To those who dismiss this as being over 20 years old, you should understand that this was a very significant period. Maharaji refused to take Mishler's advice, and instead embarked on a period of demanding complete devotion and surrender to him. The ripples of this are still being felt today (certainly in my mind). BTW, I'm not certain when Mishler died. Was it 1979? John. Mishler telephone interview www.ex-premie2.org/pages/mishlertel.htm

Subject: OUCH! From: Bryn To: JHB Date Posted: Mon, May 20, 2002 at 08:15:47 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: To think that I spent my formative years living up to the public declarations of a total pisshead! Mishler should have spoken up earlier. What a tendency I must have had to delude myself and project. Bless us all. Love Bryn

Subject: PremRawat is a major league Asshole (nt) From: Dave Punshon To: JHB Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 03:17:58 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: not for having money, but... From: Dave Punshon To: Dave Punshon Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 04:27:32 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: for deceiving so many people through being an absolute hypocrite for the past 30 odd years... and yes, he should return all of the money that he has basically ripped off from premies during those years. Of course, this is the equivalent of expecting Sadam to love President Bush, so it will (probobly) never happen, but hey, scientists unexpectedly found a frozen mammoth so who knows ;)

Subject: Re: Mishler telephone transcript now on EPO From: Livia To: JHB Date Posted: Sat, May 18, 2002 at 17:01:55 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'But he lives a very, very opulent lifestyle and he just really just doesn't ... to me it's greed - y'know, I feel sorry for him because he got programmed into this role, I don't see how there can be a happy ending for anybody involved, including him - ultimately. Because he's not even happy now, that's the irony of the whole thing, I mean ... consumerism is like a disease with him. He no sooner has the object of his desire, whether it's a new Maserati or Rolls Royce or whatever - Aston Martin - he's thinking about the next thing: it's got to be a helicopter, it's got to be a Grummond Gulfstream 2, it's got to be this or that. I mean ... he just craves all of these symbols of wealth that, once he has them, he can't even use them. I mean, what can you do? Even when I was there - and I'm sure it's gotten worse since then - there was not enough garage space to keep all of his cars - and we had like six garages, OK?' I was just reading this and a memory came back to me, of a video we used to watch years ago. Maharaji was being given a birthday present - it was a car, I think it was a Maserati. You saw his face as he first saw the car - it broke into the most incredible smile of happiness. And I remember thinking 'I wish he wouldn't be quite so thrilled over a car' (because he was always telling us about how material possessions didn't bring happiness). But then you'd quickly remember that his happiness was because of the love of the premies that went towards the buying of that car - we'd all contributed towards it. How hollow to realise that it was really the car he was ecstatic about all along, and that the love of the premies was used just as a tool to get him that car. And how naive that I just couldn't see it back then. As Disculta said: cor blimey - or worse. love to all, Livia

Subject: Thanks John, CQ and Thorin [nt] From: PatC To: JHB Date Posted: Sat, May 18, 2002 at 11:36:56 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Importent information From: Ulf To: JHB Date Posted: Sat, May 18, 2002 at 09:54:27 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thank C.Q. and Steve , is it Steve Muller ? Notice how clear Bob is , back then . He knew what we know now. And remember how we all felt so sorry for his poor lost soul . Remember. ? 20- 30 years later , we see what a mindfuck it all was . Still people are being trapped , and because of that E.P.O. is still very importent. Ulf .

Subject: I wish I had known Mischler From: PatC To: Ulf Date Posted: Sat, May 18, 2002 at 12:10:11 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I first listened to the interview and was surprised at how sweet and calm Bob was. I was also astonished to hear how articulate and smart he was. Hearing a person's voice gives you a good idea as to what the person is like so I urge everyone to listen to the audio version too. I found these two paragraphs very telling: ''I had set up a program to use the tax-free income that he was getting in gifts from the premies to create a program of investments for him so that ultimately he could live off his invested capital and not need to have the premies keep making incredible contributions to him - not need to have Divine Light Mission give so much of its money to him to maintain his lifestyle. In other words he would be financially independent, therefore he would no longer have the necessity of having them believe that he was God so that he could count on all of their donations.'' ''He would find ways to charge off things that we'd bought - for him - to various Divine Light Mission departments so that they could be hidden within our financial status.'' These are all ill-gotten gains and I would like to see Rawat return them. He defrauded us out of our money with false pretenses. He needs to return this money and spend the rest of his life working to pay off what he has frittered away on his insatiable appetite for expensive toys. He could earn a good living as a pilot and have his pay garnished. What a low-life piece of trash he is.

Subject: Steve has never posted here From: JHB To: Ulf Date Posted: Sat, May 18, 2002 at 11:51:30 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The Steve who sent me the tape has never posted here, and to my knowledge is not known by anyone here. John.

Subject: Once again, information is so powerful From: la-ex To: JHB Date Posted: Sat, May 18, 2002 at 08:50:33 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: If this transcript was widely disseminated in the late 70's or early 80's, how many of us would have left then? Or if we didn't leave, would have at least taken one or two big steps back to re-think the whole thing?....which would have led to further steps backward, and final exiting.... Even if a premie says 'how can you be sure it's true? What if Mischler, Donner, Dettmers et al, are all lying and making this stuff up? You have to admit, it would certainly start people reconsidering their involvement with it, and their reluctance to question any of it... Thanks again! Very helpful stuff, especially to see it in print.

Subject: Re: Once again, information is so powerful From: PatD To: la-ex Date Posted: Sat, May 18, 2002 at 15:59:21 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'm not sure I would've believed him then,even if I'd heard the interview.He was a lone voice,a man who'd done the unthinkable because he was in his head. Walked out on the Incarnation. A remote figure who just got in the way between me & walking hand in hand with the Lord. Fuck him. It's the accumulated memories of hundreds who enabled the penny to drop for me. If only there'd been the internet in 1979. Where are the people who've kept Rawat afloat since those days? Why aren't they speaking out? Don't mind my rhetorical questions,they aren't speaking out because they've lost the plot. R.I.P Robert Mischler,you had the moral integrity to look a lie in the face & turn your back on it.You knew that truth demands a man practices what he preaches. Thanks to all who put this in the public domain.

Subject: Re: Once again, information is so powerful From: Crispy To: PatD Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 18:27:40 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: How many would have left back then if these tapes had been disseminated, you ask? I know I would have...... I remember when our coordinator briefly announced to us with that silent look of disdain on his face that Mishler had resigned. The attitude back then (and still present today), was how could someone dare turn their back on Mj like that? The only comment the coordinator added was that Mj had made it clear there should be no confusion as to who's the boss in his organization, i.e how dare someone think they know better than the perfect one. The off-the-top judgement of Mishler was that he had let his mind-ego think he knew better than Mj how to run things. Noone dared wonder what was Mishler's view. So it was quickly hushed and forgotten. (typically cultish?) Even though all this vital information now on EPO has been hidden from us all this time, I'm still so thankful the pieces of the puzzle have been finally snapped together for me. So, many thanks to all involved (past and present!) on this transcript.

Subject: Holy shit!!! From: Inside Edition To: JHB Date Posted: Sat, May 18, 2002 at 08:04:02 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: JHB, Thank you very much for posting this interview. If I had access to THAT back in 1978, I most definately would NOT have spent another minute in the ashram, let alone another twenty years in the CULT!! Holy shit indeed!! Inside Edition

Subject: Cor Blimey From: Disculta To: Inside Edition Date Posted: Sat, May 18, 2002 at 09:19:52 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: This is amazing! Holy sheeet indeed! Stand out points for me: the image of poor Marolyn feeling so confused as she realizes whom she's married; her suffering from hour-long verbal abuse tirades from her Lord; being susceptible to the I'm-a-worthless-shit-syndrome because of her catholic upbringing. (I didn't have a catholic upbrining but I was susceptible too - how about you?) The clarity with which Mishler nailed MJ: greedy, bored, drunk, and abuser of power. Mishler's compassion about the financial exploitation and general disempowerment of ashram premies. The fact that even Marolyn was into the dethroning plan in 1976. Boy did she ever get pulled back in! (And me too). The CENTRAL point, which I believe Mishler made on the radio as well, because I remember hearing it before, is his first-hand witnessing of the fact that the reason MJ reinstituted his Lordship in 76/77 was because he was afraid of losing his opulent lifestyle. This was very powerful for me when I first heard it, even though I think I was already 'out.' But I really felt betrayed. It was them last few years of fascist devotion that really nearly done me in. love ktd

Subject: Marolyn... From: Cynthia To: Disculta Date Posted: Sat, May 18, 2002 at 11:11:01 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi, The image of hour long verbal abuse toward Marolyn struck me too. It must have been so horrible. Verbal abuse is emotional battering. Yet on the stage, in the videos and films, everything was just fine. It's quite typical except for the cult/lord part. I wonder if he did that to her in front of the kids. If so, that's even worse. It's clearly the battered spouse syndrome, Catholic or not. That m did it to her in front of others is even more humiliating. I wonder why she hasn't left. It can't be just the money. Maybe she's waiting for the best time for her. That transcription was incredible and I think that Bob Mischler was quite brave for his efforts to publicly tell the truth about Maharaji. Best, Cynthia

Subject: Dear brave lurking PAMs From: Disculta To: Cynthia Date Posted: Sat, May 18, 2002 at 11:20:05 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'I think that Bob Mischler was quite brave for his efforts to publicly tell the truth about Maharaji. ' Yes, although don't we wish he had done more, now? I quite understand why he didn't at the time. I (and others) have written in detail on these forums everything I can remember from my few contacts with MJ, and my quite extensive contact with PAMs (people around MJ). Even some quite small details have been helpful to some people. But it's pretty small-scale stuff. It's the direct reporting from the frontline that is the most powerful to fence-sitters. SO... if you are someone who was around MJ and knows more of the x-rated story - even just in terms of your own emotional experience - please know that it would be very very helpful for you to write it here. I know that you're over the whole thing and have gotten on with your life and all that. But if you knew how helpful your efforts and emotional stretching would be in this area, you would probably give it a shot. Again - it seems that the accounts written by people around MJ have been the most powerful factor for many premies in being able to free themselves after as much as 30 years! love Katie Darling

Subject: Former PAMs, please speak up From: PatC To: Disculta Date Posted: Sat, May 18, 2002 at 12:16:51 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I agree, Disculta. I can think of many premies who would benefit from hearing more about the fake wizard behind the divine curtain. No one owes this to the premies but I can think of no better kindness than for the former PAMs to speak up and free the remaining deluded devotees. If you have seen through the greedy wizard of Amaroo, Oz, please speak up and help others be free.

Subject: nutshell version From: bill To: JHB Date Posted: Sat, May 18, 2002 at 07:47:53 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I started living with Maharaji then, once he had split with his family, and I saw what he was really like. Maharaji at the time was real young, he was only 16, 17 in those days, but he already had developed some really bad habits that are essentially the result of a lifestyle of being plain bored essentially. By bad habits I'm talking about - not my own opinion - I'm talking about in terms of his own physical well-being. He used to drink excessively and he had not learned to manage the stress of his situation so consequently he suffered from essential hyper-tension which is a psychological high blood pressure condition, which was very dangerous for his health and well-being - he used to have fainting spells sometimes because his blood pressure would be so high and he would just black out. Things like this to me were indicative of some deeper problems. He would rise in the morning and by early afternoon on a typical day he was already drinking. And he drank heavily, not just beer or wine - he drank cognac, and he drank it to the point that he was stewed every evening. There was more than one occasion where we had to pick him up and carry him to bed after he had passed out. I don't see how there can be a happy ending for anybody involved, including him - ultimately. Because he's not even happy now, that's the irony of the whole thing, I mean ... consumerism is like a disease with him. He no sooner has the object of his desire, whether it's a new Maserati or Rolls Royce or whatever - Aston Martin - he's thinking about the next thing: it's got to be a helicopter, it's got to be a Grummond Gulfstream 2, it's got to be this or that. I mean ... he just craves all of these symbols of wealth that, once he has them, he can't even use them. I mean, what can you do? Even when I was there - and I'm sure it's gotten worse since then - there was not enough garage space to keep all of his cars - and we had like six garages, OK? if you're living a life now that's not only injurious to others but that's also self-destructive, and you can't - you don't have the courage to make a change, well then ... there's not much anybody else can do for you. Over and over and over again it's defining a reason to believe in spite of everything else. And we used to go through this with Marolyn all the time. Because ... she, in the early years, was very much ... I mean, it was a shock to her to find out what Maharaji was really like after she married him - it was tremendous adjustment. I've seen how Maharaji manipulates her ... I mean, ... he's, ... he's a powerful person, he can influence people, particularly at that ... I mean, if you're indebted to the extent that Marolyn is ... I would watch her get completely overcome with guilt at ever doubting him. But he would really berate her, I mean he would just verbally assault her for, like, an hour - and she would be reduced to tears. And it would be terrible, because she really wasn't guilty - of anything. But he would play upon that ... that kind of propensity she had to be vulnerable at that level. And she really had it, she's ... a Roman Catholic background, and it's something that's really for her to get into.

Subject: and to think we all thought he was manmat [nt] From: Livia To: bill Date Posted: Sat, May 18, 2002 at 15:34:58 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: and to think we all thought he was manmat From: Cynthia To: Livia Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 10:34:51 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Livia, That's true. Even as recent as 1997 when I asked premies what ever happened to Bob Mishler they told me he ''flipped out.'' I read your message on LG. I won't post there anymore, nor will I read anything from the queen. It just causes me hurt and pain and encourages me to be negative when I don't want to be. Thanks for your supportive and kind words... Love, Cynthia

Subject: Hi Cynthia From: Livia To: Cynthia Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 12:19:14 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Cynthia, yes it was odd to hear Mishler's voice - he sounds very gentle and compassionate - and to read his words too. I had such an attitude about that man for so many years, that he was dangerous and totally deluded. How wrong can one be... Re LG - you're welcome. I just couldn't stand to see them pile into you like that, it was so ugly. I'm going to try not respond to people over there either - you just get a barrage of abuse whatever you say. I'm just going to continue with this debate with Harry and that's it. Their latest site 'Peaches' is where they seem to be headed, and they're all welcome to each other as far as I'm concerned. They chose it. Lots of love to you Cynthia XX

Subject: What beans are left to spill? From: La-ex To: All Date Posted: Fri, May 17, 2002 at 22:17:33 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Just a question.... With all of the recent revelations of the last 2 years or so concerning the 'secret life of m', or the offstage life of the man on stage..... What other revelations are out there about m's personal behaviour that are yet to be told? What other incidents have happened that would cast doubt on the 'perfect master'? What information about organizational strategies might come out that would reveal more? What people might come forward to tell what? Just wondering what anyone might think about any of this...

Subject: Claudias stories for one. From: bill To: La-ex Date Posted: Sat, May 18, 2002 at 07:56:43 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The bob mishler book that he was working on when he died, the rest of the stories that Mike Dettmers knows, the stories Marolyns sister knows, what is her name anyone....maybe we can contact her. Hansi's stories, the gay sex between him and his valet, the tales of his premie women sex victims, stories from waiters at restaurants when he went ballistic, stories from the salesman at the rodeo drive watch store, the jewler that made the crown, stories from fuzbee when he finally wakes up enough, stories from his eldest brother, the press release that mata ji released in 74 denouncing him, ect ect,

Subject: Re: What beans are left to spill? From: Livia To: La-ex Date Posted: Sat, May 18, 2002 at 05:57:08 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I think (and know) that there are plenty of people who know a lot, but are unwilling to spill the beans because of residual fear of possible repercussions. Or because they don't feel any responsibility to spill any beans and have chosen to get on with their lives away from it all. Personally I believe that if they know things that would help other people to walk away, they do have a responsibility to tell what they know. This is because it's easier for them to walk away free of misgivings than it is for people who were never privy to that sort of information, and are therefore still trapped within an inaccurate projection. However, they may be seriously afraid to speak out, firstly because of fears of litigation, and/or fears of having to lose close friendships of up to 30 years. My view, for what it's worth. Livia

Subject: I agree Livia.... From: PatD To: Livia Date Posted: Sat, May 18, 2002 at 14:59:04 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ...in general.I'd like to add that many of the ways in which premies raised money were criminal. Expecting much to come to light in that area is futile. The further back you go in the history,the murkier the stories. Those who used a long spoon have cut it up & buried it long ago.

Subject: The million dollar question From: hamzen To: La-ex Date Posted: Fri, May 17, 2002 at 23:25:00 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Cause we don't know, we don't know what we don't know. Sorry couldn't resist a bit of systems thinking there:) Say even if there is nothing else major about him to come out, and that's doubtful, there are still loads of questions I'd like asked, most of them of a dubious and humourous nature, and especially related to stuff that could puncture or wind up the windbag known as 'the lord of the universe not a leaf moves without me knowing'. I really do want to hear more explicit details on his bed technique, which we already know is close to diabolical at an embarrassing level. Questions such as exactly how many premie women has he shagged, or should I say, given personal darshan to? 10, 50, 100, thousands? We know it's at least half-a-dozen, from various sources, not least dettmners who he used as his pimp to pull the fit ones. Other questions that come to mind are, what is it about his bed technique that is so embarrassingly inept, more than a few hints from a couple of sources there, but no explicit details from the horses mouth as it were? Wheres Monica Lewis when you need her? Is it true his dick size is tiny, and exactly how many years is it since he could see it because of his gut size? Is he into mirrors and bondage, does he go down on them, has he ever used his position to pull premie blokes, so many unanswered questions. Now sorry for anyone of a sensitive nature who finds such talk disgusting, but personally I find the topic disgraceful too, almost as disgraceful as the fakirinand attempted murder cover up and the jagdeo cover up and the EV abuse of Abi after it was all exposed, and the health & safety issues around the deca project, forgetting all the psycho dasmage and suicides of premies who thought they were not worthy of gmj, which is why their experience of k was so poor.. He completely abused his power over his followers for sexual purposes, no diff than sai baba and other dodgy gurus and abuses by people with undue power. Were they all over age? And not just his abuse of power sexually, which I see as akin to rape considering how he was perceived then, and perceived even now. Another thought, is he still at that game of sexual abuse, how does he explain it to the kids when they bring it up, as they are bound to do sometime when they are angry with him, has he taught hans that it's ok to abuse women, like father like son 'good on yer, go for it my boy' etc etc So many questions still to be answered even if it is just fillin in the details

Subject: Let Prem answer you, Hammie From: gerry To: hamzen Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 11:34:31 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: www.geocities.com/gerry_lyng/the_truth_about_maharaji.jpg

Subject: ????????????????? From: hamzen To: gerry Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 11:51:03 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Missing link pic on my mac man. Or is that the joke that he never answers anything?

Subject: No, he answers! From: gerry To: hamzen Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 11:54:51 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Minutia www.geocities.com/gerry_lyng/the_truth_about_maharaji.jpg

Subject: You're so damned irreverent, ham From: PatC To: hamzen Date Posted: Sat, May 18, 2002 at 01:38:48 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: But I'm far more interested in where all the money went than in his sexual shennanigans. Sure I'd like the blondes to step forward with a few kiss and tell stories but I'd prefer a few of his accountants to explain his complex book-keeping.

Subject: Yes, the money... From: Cynthia To: PatC Date Posted: Sat, May 18, 2002 at 07:29:38 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I am also quite interested in his accumulation of wealth off the backs of his premies. To see him goes down in poverty would be great; it's not likely to happen but anything is possible.

Subject: Re: The million dollar question From: Salam To: hamzen Date Posted: Sat, May 18, 2002 at 00:55:58 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I have a good question: Is spirituallity a neccessary element to be in a cult or can the Rugby League considered as one [cult]? Yes Mr Hiller, you were saying......... [oh can you please voice your insults, me and my friends are watching ;)]

Subject: Grow up, Salam From: Jim To: Salam Date Posted: Sat, May 18, 2002 at 16:01:08 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Salam, You and your 'friends' are a few extremely confused people with nothing at all in common but the fact that each of you has some chip on your shoulder that you can't or won't deal with maturely. Deborah, for one, sounds like she really has gone mad. Here's some of her latest: On LG ''Hi Cat, Shit! When the shit hits the fun it so easy to see how seriously deranged Jim and PatC and Cynthia are. ''Damn, it's hard to imagine that I never saw Jim's potential for full blown deluded insanity. i got clues during the very overt betrayal of the FA's and covert instigation by Jim. ''Now he's blown the lid of the covert and overtly showing his socio-pathological fuckupedness. And look at the pathological liars club he keeps as sidekicks. ''They are getting sicker everyday and oddly assume everyone has their discontinuity in logic. cheers, deborah, who wished you convinced me before I found out the hard way'' On AG ''Did you notice that it's okay for them to be a pathological liars at Forum VII about Selene, Salam, Quiet, and I including but not limited to Jim's sociopathic 'want to have someone murdered' tales but it is unethical to say anything about them. Strange eh?! cheers, deborah, who can't believe people don't realize what they are saying'' Do you agree with her assessment of me? I know you think I'm some sort of evil 'Zionest' or however you spell it but do you also think I'm a sociopath suffering from full-blown deluded insanity? More specifically, do you believe Deborah when she says I'm lying about her threatening to have Pat killed? Come on, Salam, who do you believe, her or me?

Subject: Call Deborah's bluff, Salam From: Jim To: Jim Date Posted: Sat, May 18, 2002 at 16:49:42 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Salam, Pat, who I know you're going to rush to wish a happy birthday today, has posted more of Deborah's AG and LG comments on Symp. They're so silly, they don't deserve comment. But when she makes certain specific allegations that I know are entirely false, I have to say something. Here's one of her latest: [Deb to ?] PatC already admitted in a post back wehn the fight was in full swing that it was because I called Forum VII a cult. The reason they didn't want the article done was because they thought the premies would laugh and that it was not a good look for the EPO. Another significant reason was because the inner circle wanted to avoid media altogether because of the potential of libel. In fact, I have all the posts and emails to back it. And ironicaly enough, Nouri and Maharaji benefitted from the dry run and furthermore now have the proof of the FA's betrayal, lies, constant revisions, defamation, cyberstalking, and brutish behaviour. This turned out to be lemonades for Maharaji and is an legal ace in his pocket. cheers, deborah, who now wonders if M really does have a divine horseshoe up his ass I'm not sure who she's including in her notion of an 'inner circle' but I do know that she's lying again. That is, she's completely making it up when she says that there were a bunch of exes emailing each other saying they wanted to avoid media altogether because of the 'potential of libel' [sic]. She says she has emails to back her up. She's lying, Salam. Or, put it this way, if there were any such emails, they sure didn't come my way and I was one of the people she's referring to as 'inner circle' whatever that means. She's lying, Salam, just like she's lying when she denies threatening to have Pat killed. So put her to the test. Ask for the emails and posts she's talking about. See what she says. That is, if you care about the truth in the matter.

Subject: Don't bother, Jim... From: Cynthia To: Jim Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 07:13:48 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Salam doesn't know how to converse.

Subject: Re: Call Deborah's bluff, Salam From: Salam To: Jim Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 06:24:34 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I was told that you were being civil, so am a looking. I don't know why you line me up with Deb. You did that the other day and lined me up with M. I don't appreciate that. What Deb think and does it's her choice, it has nothing to do with me. She also think that she has a case aginst you which is obvious. Why she doesn't talk to you that is something she has not disclosed [maybe she thinks you're a boofhead?]. Scociopath, umm very likely. You are certainly not acting like a normal person does. You jump from one place to another picking up fights, you don't allow anyone to voice their thoughts and you are a bigger checken that Zelda because you always get someone to do your dirty work for you. So unfortunatly I do agree with her though that doesn't mean that I follow her as I made this opinion when she was still going all gaga about what you say. anyway, I really have no time to read so much on forums anymore. I have limited access to the net, which keeps me on the straight and narrow. So am afraid you will have to find someone else to give you a good old rattle. And that fellow [you know who] if you see him, just as him if he is or isn't the wife, be nice. Someone posted a link on lg which I thought was very relevant, get someone to post it for you. Oh look this is a nice post on ag, sorry maite, I need to read it.

Subject: What?? From: Jim To: Salam Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 10:13:57 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I don't know why you line me up with Deb. Maybe because you say stuff like this: [oh can you please voice your insults, me and my friends are watching ] What friends?

Subject: In fact he's much scarier than Osama! From: Jim To: All Date Posted: Fri, May 17, 2002 at 21:55:58 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Reconsidering Maharaji's 'Peace Bomb' satsang in this new era of Islamic funtamentalism is downright freaky. It's all there -- the disdain for the world, the sheer impatience and personal indignation that anyone would NOT sacrifice their life to him. But, really, he's much worse than Osama. Maharaji claims that he is the greatest incarnation of God ever and promises as emphatically and specifically as possible that HE, not Allah, but HE HIMSELF will rule the world. Absolutely amazing. This is most, but not all, of the rant. The whole thing's on EPO. I've highlighted some favorite parts: In this age which is coming, everybody will have his desserts. Justice will be done, and the proud will be made humble. So, dear premies, forsake that grandeur that is making you so lazy, and go and tell people about God. In the Bhagavad Gita, the Lord says that whenever religion becomes corrupted and evil increases, He takes a human body and manifests in this world to destroy evil and to protect His devotees. All of you must know very well what is happening to religion and Knowledge in the materialistic age. All the time, the latest models are being built, the latest fashions are being designed. Day by day men are striving to improve the quality and appearance of their inventions. And today I have to say with sorrow that the Knowledge which was once firmly established in this land of India has been slowly disappearing. But when the Lord saw that the troubles His devotees were having to endure had reached the final point, He said, 'My devotees can bear it no longer', and then manifested Himself in a human body. So, dear premies, we Indians have a duty and that duty is to forget that self-esteem which makes you lazy and to destroy those things that separate you from God. Only accept that which is of God, which is one with the Name of God, and from which every ray of the Light of God comes. Accept that and show the Western world that in this degrading age, we are the same Indians as before. So, dear premies, receive this Knowledge, and those who have received this Knowledge must meditate and have Guru Maharaj Ji's darshan. Why do you search in the world? Peace is not there, peace is with me. Those who are lost can come and those who are fond of roaming can roam about in arrogance. What will the world give to me? It can receive from me, but what can it give to me? 'When the devotee has the blessings of the Perfect Master, what does he lack? All the gods and goddesses envy him and liberation never leaves him.' Guru Maharaj Ji has infinite mercy on me. Take from me, but what will you give me? Will you give me love? The love that you will give me, that love is also mine, so what is yours? Did you just happen to fall from the sky without the help of Guru Maharaj Ji and without the Lord? No, the Lord has created you and Guru Maharaj Ji has put love into you. Oh, give what is mine back to me, and I will give you such a thing, such a peace, that not even a pistol or a gun will be found in the country. Not one leader will stand and shout slogans, not a man of the army will remain and, dear premies, there will be peace. I will give you this peace because it is in my possession and I can give it. I do not need machine guns, I do not need pistols, I do not need a sword, I do not need a spear. I possess such a Knowledge that with it I can control the whole world, from ants to elephants, from men to animals, from birds to mosquitoes, by tying them in the thread of love. Oh! We shoot someone and he dies but is that peace? No, that can never be called peace. It is said that when a man kills a snake, the real satisfaction comes when the snake is killed and the stick remains intact. And I say that peace will come without any guns being fired. Is this impossible? No, it is possible, and I am going to show how it is possible. If you stay alive to see it, watch how I will make it possible! Not a single pistol will be made in this world. Lions and sheep, pigeons and cats will drink water in the same lake, and there will be no hostility. What if I am twelve years old? What does it matter? Old people drive cars and I also can drive a car. What does it matter if I am twelve? If at twelve I can drive a car which one is able to do only at the age of eighteen, why can I not give Knowledge of the Soul at the age of twelve? Is this impossible? This is possible. In London, just for fun, the press reporters from a newspaper printed a photo of mine where I am blessing with both my hands and sitting in meditation. Someone had given them that photo. They titled it, 'Let Me Rule This World.' Their feelings in publishing this were not sincere, but people took that cutting and framed it. The premies in London really appreciated this photo and they displayed it in their houses. Oh, you think I am small and in this small age I will not be able to do anything. But this age is the age of the body and not of the soul. The body is twelve years old, not the soul. And I have a soul. That is how I am speaking - because I have a soul. If my soul departs, I would be dead. What difference does it make whether my body is ten years old or 200 years old? My soul has no age! Whether I am very old or very young, listen to me. Guru Maharaj Ji is such an ocean of Grace, what shall I say of Him? How is it possible to understand Him? If you do not obey what Maharaj Ji says, what is the use of your living in this world? Rather you should die of shame! Why don't you realize? Why is this curtain of darkness shadowing you? Kaliyuga will come to an end and Satyuga will start and people will listen to me and act accordingly. Do you think it is a joke? The great leaders think that I have come to rule and yes, they are right! I will rule the world, and just watch how I will do it. Even the lion and sheep will embrace each other. Has there been such a king before? Krishna was not such a king. Rama was not such a king. There were lesser powers in Ram, there were lesser powers in Krishna, but I have come to the world with full powers. Accept my words, accept me. I will give you Knowledge. If you mistake my meaning, if you mistake a single word of what I am saying, I will not forgive you. Those who are shameful or bothered about social respect ask for forgiveness. I do not bother about social respect. I do not feel shy of anyone because I have entrusted the reins of my life to Guru Maharaj Ji. Therefore, dear premies, the time has come. See how peace will be established in the world. There will be peace on earth. That peace which disappeared shall prevail again. It will come, and once again the world will understand. So listen to me and act accordingly. Bow down before Guru Maharaj Ji! Oh, blind humanity, you are like those blind men who tried to visualize the elephant by feeling it. You have become like a horse blinded by blinkers. You have been blinded so much that you are lost in illusion. The world has blinded you in such a way that the blinkers of illusion are now around your eyes. You have been blinded and are now lost in the circle of illusion. Love flows from the Lord who has given me wisdom; will He not also give me strength to establish peace on this earth? How will He not give? I have complete faith in Guru Maharaj Ji. And the tears that I am shedding on His anniversary are not because I remember Him, or because I feel sad. They are because of the power I carry with me. Right now, I feel such a power in me, I do not know where it has come from; I feel as if I want to shake the world. Soon I will leave my studies and spread the Holy Word of Guru Maharaj Ji throughout the world. How will the world not receive it? To every single child, I will reveal this Name. I will give you such a thing, such a Name, that you have never received before in your life. But come to me. Why do you hesitate? Mira did not hesitate. When she was given poison to drink and was told it was nectar, she drank without suspicion, so trusting was she in the Grace of Guru Maharaj Ji. If Mira had hesitated, definitely she would have been killed; but she was not at all troubled by pride or how her social position would be affected. She had sacrificed her whole life at the Lotus Feet of Guru Maharaj Ji, and this is why she did not die. The poison that was given to her became nectar as she drank it. Therefore, dear premies, the time has come for restlessness to be destroyed and the Kingdom of Peace to be established. Whether you take it as my prophecy or anything else, the Kingdom of Peace will be established soon. Those people who roam about like insects of the monsoon, misguiding the people, will be set aside. Today people everywhere listen to film songs and do not find time for Truth. Here I say that such films will be destroyed. Those film actors, those directors, those musicians whose music is causing harm to religions and satsang programmes, will cease their work. They are supposed to remind us of God, of Truth, of Lord Rama, Lord Krishna and Lord Nanak, but instead they only show stories of boys and girls. Is this the culture of India? Is this all that remains of the citizens of India? No, I understand that my fellow Indians still have the same blood that they had before and have complete faith that they will know this Name, realize this Knowledge and make others realize it too. Look, doesn't Guru Maharaj Ji give you darshan from time to time? It is for you to sacrifice every drop of blood for Him. Once, Guru Maharaj Ji pretended to His disciple Shiva Ji that His eyes were sore. He said, 'What should I do? Once when I was young, my eyes were sore, and someone gave me the milk of a lioness. I put that on my eyes and they were alright.' Shiva Ji left that place, doing his pranam to Guru Maharaj Ji and saying in his heart, 'O Guru Maharaj Ji, you are all powerful. What can you not do? You can do anything. I surrender myself at your Lotus Feet. Protect me, please,' as you should pray in your heart when you do pranam before Guru Maharaj Ji or His picture. Saying these words, Shiva Ji left. Now the life of Shiva Ji was in the hands of Guru Maharaj Ji and He protected Shiva Ji. When he reached the forest, it was on fire, and the cubs of a lioness were in great danger. Shiva Ji picked them up and carried them to safety. The lioness came and when she saw Shiva Ji, she was very angry. But see how the Grace of Guru Maharaj Ji works through those who have faith in Him. Both the cubs ran to their mother and told her he had saved their lives. 'Oh mother,' they said, 'he has saved our lives, please give him what he wants.' The lioness asked, 'What do you want?' Shiva Ji replied, 'My Guru Maharaj Ji is not feeling well. His eyes are burning. Give me a little of your milk.' And the lioness allowed him to milk her in a bowl. Where was Shiva Ji from? He was not from London or America but from India. That Shiva Ji will always exist and he exists now, but dear premies, why should he manifest himself? He wants huge masses to rise first. I do not want to be a Shiva Ji just to appear before Guru Maharaj Ji. Shiva Ji never wanted that. He only wants one thing and that is the Grace of Guru Maharaj Ji who is the ocean of love. When he became one with Guru Maharaj Ji, He gave him such a love that he wanted everybody to benefit from it, and for nobody to be hurt. He only wants this. If I ask you to cut your head for Guru Maharaj Ji, you should do it and offer it to Him on a plate. You should sacrifice every drop of blood for Guru Maharaj Ji. But see what kind of people live in this world. They accuse the mahatmas of being too fervent, too strong in their language. 'He shouts and screams on the stage,' they say. But no! Once a mahatma saw a scorpion floating in some water. The poor thing was feeling cold and struggling. He put his hand into the water and took him out. As soon as he was out, he stung the mahatma and escaped from his hands, falling back into the water. Mahatma Ji picked him up again but he still stung him and escaped again. A farmer was passing by and he saw Mahatma Ji do this five or six times, then asked him, 'Are you crazy, Mahatma Ji? He is not going to leave his habit of stinging. Why are you unnecessarily troubling yourself? Let it go. Let it die.' Then the mahatma explained, 'It is his duty to bite me, but it is my duty to save him.' So a mahatma must do his duty no matter what people say. If it was possible for the Lord to feel tired, if Guru Maharaj Ji could ever feel tired, He would surely have lost hope by now. Shishupal rebuked the Lord a hundred and one times. You people are fed up after only two rebukes, but he rebuked the Lord a hundred and one times! So if the Lord was to feel tired, He would have lost hope by now. He wouldn't bother to keep coming. But He comes for the people of the world and they do not recognize Him. You must understand and have faith in my words. All I ask is your love, all I ask is your trust, and what I can give you is such a peace as will never die. I will give you such a peace that even the President of America will bow down to you. So, dear premies, tell the people that we are devotees of Guru Maharaj Ji. Ask them what there is in these things they are following. All have to forsake shameful things when they die, so why stay shyly at home, hesitating to propagate? It is alright for a girl with good character to stay at home feeling shy about going out and roaming with boys. But, dear premies, I would like to ask you, will the world not hear if you scream? They will listen with their ears wide open. Will that girl who is now so socially respectable still be full of consideration when four people are carrying her dead body on a bier? No, at that time she will have to give up her social respect. So, dear premies, forget about social respectability, and put yourself in meditation, the remembrance of God. So, dear premies, one day you will have to sacrifice your social respect, so leave it now. What is there in that? One day all have to die, but what can happen if you die while meditating on God? Do not misunderstand my words. What else is there? I declare that I will establish peace in this world. Just give me the reins and let me rule and I will rule in such a way that even Rama, Hariscandra, Krishna and other kings could not have ruled like that! That day is fast approaching. So arise, awake, open the ears of each man and tell him the time has come! Do not tell him that there was a festival. No! Make them understand He has come to reveal the Knowledge, that He has come to show us the True Path, and if you truly give me the reins of your life, I swear by Guru Maharaj Ji, I take an oath on Guru Maharaj Ji, and I swear by my mother who has give me birth, that I will give you peace. If with a true heart you give me the reins of your life, place them in my hands, you will be saved. So brothers, now the time has come when I have to sacrifice my social respectability. You also sacrifice it and show the people who I am, whose children we are. Tell the people who is your True Mother, whose devoted children you are. I have the hope that you are the pearls of the True Mother, and if you are, then sacrifice your life in this enterprise. He who drives his motorcycle into the tunnel of death has no hope in life. He only has to close his eyes and drive and if he falls he dies, but if he escapes he gains fame. So devote yourself wholeheartedly, sacrifice your life to propagate this Name. You can serve the world afterwards, you can fill this stomach eating and drinking later, but if you sacrifice yourself now for the devotion of God, I say that people will spread out golden carpets for you. Oh! Sacrifice yourself! Why didn't you hear the bhajan just now that said if you miss the chance, you will not get a human life again! So obey my command, or else you will be drowned. What can I say about Guru Maharaj Ji who has sent me amongst you and has given me this chance to serve you? The name of such a merciful Guru Maharaj Ji is Shri Hans Ji Maharaj. How shall I sing of Him? How shall I express the love He has for you? He has deep love for humanity. I cannot express the great love He has for you. I do not have sufficient words to express how much Guru Maharaj Ji loves you. Had I liked sleeping on a luxurious bed, I would have been doing so by now and enjoying it, but I do not want pleasure or rest. Ain't that something? :)

Subject: obey my command, or else you will be drowned From: PatC To: Jim Date Posted: Sat, May 18, 2002 at 01:30:50 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Well, maybe he's not as dangerous as Osama but he's sure as crazy. I guess I was too. That used to be my Bible. Funny thing is, despite the revisionism, his message is still the same freaky fundamentalist crap: ''Belief is relief,'' ''Never doubt the purity of the Master,'' ''You cannot save yourself - only the Master can save you.'' And the latest from Amaroo: ''Trying to save yourself is like a kid reading a book upside down. You need the Master to teach you to read.'' Sounds quite innocuous and as modern as the new CEO of the Prem Rawat Foundation but it's still plays on that same old-timey creepy superstitious paranoia. Yes, Rawat is peddling as primitive a religion as Osama. I wonder if the Peace Bomb was burned during the Great Purge?

Subject: Don't miss the picture From: Jean-Michel To: Jim Date Posted: Sat, May 18, 2002 at 01:01:01 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I've just exhumed from my closet (very bottom of the Peace Bomb satsang) ..... GMJ Is Here And Now

Subject: THIS should be front and centre, IMHO [nt] From: Jim To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, May 17, 2002 at 22:25:33 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: When are exes like premies? From: Jim To: All Date Posted: Fri, May 17, 2002 at 20:11:07 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: When they're being evasive. Premies, by virtue of their circumstances, have no choice but to avoid any and all hard questions about their beliefs and their guru. But, as we've seen recently, sometimes ex-premies also feel compelled to be evasive. When's that? Well, in the case of Deborah, Selene and Salam, and now even Dave, it's when they've somehow stuck their foot in their mouths. In a normal discussion, if they wanted to stick around at all, they'd be expected to do what everyone else is always expected to do: be accountable for what they say. That includes standing up for things you believe in, of course, but it also includes admitting when you're wrong. Obviously. This is not exactly a normal discussion environment though. This is an interface between people who are -- generally -- willing to discuss things fairly, the exes, because we have nothing to lose by doing so and because we're truly interested, dependent upon and faithful in the processes of analysis and discussion, and premies who just can't afford to play that way. Hence the radical difference between this forum and LG. This place is a healthy conversation pit and that's what it looks like. People agree, disagree, get serious, get funny, on topic, off topic. They say new things, repeat old ones, are sometimes profound, sometimes silly. It's all of it healthy, honest and mature and each of us knows that, at any moment, we might be asked to explain, even defend, something we posted moments before. Big deal. If our words meant any less than that, they wouldn't be worth sharing. LG, on the other hand, is weird as all get out. People might start a fledgling conversation there but, if it's on topic at all, ie if it's about Maharaji, the discussion never thrives. Indeed, it's impossible, so varied and confused are the many perspectives premies have about Maharaji and so-called Knowledge. They can talk around issues and they can spit at us but they can't really talk openly and honestly there about the stuff that matters. The truth is so overwhelmingly problematic for them, they just can't do it. Mind you, some, but very few, premies are ever honest enough to admit their problem in that regard. Instead, most pathetically, they try to blame those of us who seek to engage them in these discussions. That's why CD blocked me from LG today, because I was just trying to ask premies about that Peace Bomb crazy talk of Maharaji's, satsang so amazingly dark and dangerous it seemed to truly surprise the one premie who dared comment before I was kicked out. Conflict, personal or otherwise, is bound to occur between people over time. Not only is that generally true but it's all the more so here where 1) communication's so verbal; 2) subject matter can be so emotional; and 3) there are still wide-spread differences between us on the foundation issues of spirituality that led to premiedom in the first place. It goes without saying that it isn't just a premie weakness to avoid accountabilty as the premies do when discussing Maharaji. What's so bizarre, however, is seeing exes who are trying to avoid accountability for their reasons cozy up with the premies who are being evasive for theirs. The environment that premies create with these evasive exes is stupefying. There's no honour there, no integrity, no accountability at all. It's truly like a den of thieves. No one expects anything of the others except their shared resentment at being 'pressured' to be honest. This, I feel, was the weakness that led to the creation of Recent Exes which, if you didn't know already, was a forum created to give some breathing space (a hiding place?) to exes who wanted to talk about their spiritual beliefs without challenge. I've yet to see a persuasive argument as to why its existence is a good thing. Sure, anyone can make any forum they want and limit membership however they see fit. But is it a good thing? That's a different story. Anyways, not just politics but human nature (ie weakness) makes for some strange bedfellows. Interesting indeed.

Subject: In defence of evasion From: JHB To: Jim Date Posted: Sat, May 18, 2002 at 03:37:28 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jim, I've come to the view that some people just can't help it, and they don't even see that they are being evasive. When pressed, they see the person pressing as rude. I've recently had a short email exchange with my sister about some unrelated matter, and when I pressed her to explain something hurtful that she had said, she behaved exactly like Dave is now, and I'm left looking at what she originally said, looking at her revision, and I know all I can do is drop it. If I were to push her on it, I would just be confirming in her eyes that I am rude and pushy. So if we want to keep some people as friends, or at least as people we get on with, then we have to recognise when this phenomenon has happened, and drop it. Well that wasn't much of a defence, but just a recognition that this happens. John

Subject: Re: When are exes like premies? From: PatC To: Jim Date Posted: Sat, May 18, 2002 at 01:07:06 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Excellent read again, of course. You said: ''The environment that premies create with these evasive exes is stupefying. There's no honour there, no integrity, no accountability at all. It's truly like a den of thieves. No one expects anything of the others except their shared resentment at being 'pressured' to be honest.'' That's why I avoid LG. It's stinks of deceit and evasion and unfortunately that has been going on on AG for as long as I've been around which is why I steered clear of it. The two worlds (straightforward honesty vs evasive game-playing) recently collided when some major discussions took place on AG and LG. I am hoping that some good will come of it - mostly that the game-players will no longer be humored here and will stay in their own little private club on AG. I don't know anything about RE and never think about it. Like AG, it is a private club and has no relevance to the sensible and responsible public presence of exes on the net. And that's all I'm interested in.

Subject: Recent exes From: gerry To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, May 17, 2002 at 20:58:22 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ...there are still wide-spread differences between us on the foundation issues of spirituality that lead to premiedom in the first place. It is a relief to let the cumbersome mantle of 'spirituality' slip off one's shoulders. It just sorta happen to me. I like it though. It feels 'clean.' Being a guru snoid seems to stunt emotional intelligence in many cases, although we see this same stuntedness in ex-premies, including alas, myself, although I am evolving. :)

Subject: When they are equally sick of Jim. From: Stonor To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, May 17, 2002 at 20:35:53 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Block me, baby.

Subject: Here's how Stonor and her friends 'communicate' From: Jim To: Stonor Date Posted: Fri, May 17, 2002 at 21:22:08 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: This is a site that Salam started. What a difference, that place and this, huh? Which one's you there, Stonor? Peaches pub29.bravenet.com/forum/show.php?usernum=2463394014

Subject: Stonor, you're so inconsequential it hurts From: Jim To: Stonor Date Posted: Fri, May 17, 2002 at 21:15:32 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Stonor, in case anyone doesn't know, is a middle-aged, new age teacher in Montreal who was never a premie or aspirant. She's got no reason to be here. Never did, never will.

Subject: I didn't post all those extra question marks [nt] From: Jim To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, May 17, 2002 at 20:27:39 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: It's a Hotboards glitch... From: Chuck S. To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, May 17, 2002 at 22:19:52 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Is anything fun happening on LG anyone? From: Jim To: All Date Posted: Fri, May 17, 2002 at 14:16:37 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Could someone let me know if there's anything fun happening on LG? I was quite looking forward to the premies' answers to the peace bomb quotes. Will had just finished asking Harry an excellent question too. And of course anything by Deborah's always bizarre and wonderful. Just if you get the time, of course. Thanks

Subject: Gerry, would you please reciprocate? From: Jim To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, May 17, 2002 at 18:50:47 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Ger, Would you please consider reciprocating for CD blocking me like this? Really, if you look at LG you can see I was doing nothing at all but politely discussing Maharaji there. Yes, I can see how frustrating it must be for CD and other premies to have to face the facts, in this case evidence that Maharaji seriously expected to rule the world when he was a young satguru and, perhaps even funnier in terms of these premie / ex-premie arguments, that he specifically anticpated the argument that his words should be discounted because of his youth only to shoot that argument down for the very reasons we all do: being a so-called 'perfect master' was all about transcending mere mortal limitations like youth. Rather than answer me, CD banned me. Fine, but I don't see why he and those who've rallied for my blocking there should be allowed here. Fair's fair. What do you say? Thanks

Subject: Sometimes you're such a dork jim From: hamzen To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, May 17, 2002 at 22:02:40 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: and that can be quite amusing too. Love yer to bits an all, but Life's Great forum policy is purely about the good things in life, the things that make you feel good and appreciate it more. Now I know that asking questions like that gives you pleasure but it ain't the case for a lot of people there, and you know it ain't for cd. I only ever go there now for good vibey stuff, and cause that's a very limited lifestyle choice the way they interpret it, go very rarely. Live and let live man, I think you're being a bit disingenuous on this one, or is it ingenuous, you know what I mean anyway. On the other hand you could just be pissed (drunk) and having a laugh in which case :). Re the exes and discussion, why bother, even if people need to go in denial as exes, on this forum, where all the major visitor numbers of premies come, it gets challenged. I see it as amusing that you now have your own anti-cult, but a complete side show. Back on track eh big boy, I'm sure it would be appreciated by everyone, otherwise what will happen will be so predictable. People will start moanin, gerry will feel under pressure, some threads more serious than this one but still a bit tangential to the guru than normal will get locked in a short term management crackdown. It ain't like we haven't been down this route before, and it ain't like most of the major battles here haven't been won, and with minimal compromises. Taking on the cyber personality you do, you know this is gonna happen, so chill man. Just occasionally at times like these every few months you let yourself get distracted when we all rely on you to be the one person come rain or come shine who will be there to the end pretty much morning noon or night shining a light into the gurus porch asking the relevant questions, even when it's raining and the rest of us are down the pub or having a holiday. Well you and Jean Michel beavering away quietly in the background.

Subject: Going to see Mark Farina tonight From: Jim To: hamzen Date Posted: Fri, May 17, 2002 at 22:18:54 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Has Lee arrived yet? How's the weather? Ain't Life Great? :)

Subject: Who's Mark Farina? From: hamzen To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, May 17, 2002 at 22:48:53 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: No sign of Lee yet. bit worried for him, the situation here re web design and formal jobs is even tougher than I'd thought, been checking round for him. Still I'm sure he's a survivor, that's what I love about this generation, so much more streetwise than us wannabee cherry garcia's were. You know what would be really funny, get yourself another ISP, then we could go to Lifes Great and call their bluff. Can you imagine if we had discussions there that were truly just about how great life can be, it could be hilarious, since I know you appreciate it just as much as me, how else can 25 year olds put up with us! They would not know how to handle that one at all, especially if you could hold it together without budging and without being sarcastic, yeah I know it would be hard :) :) :) Dontcha just know some of them there would lose the plot and break their own rules!! But on a more serious note, one of the total bonuses of being an ex is how much more great it can be being an ex, even for someone like me who had a wonderful time as a premie. Give it some thought man, pranksters shit etc etc And it's just gone into the 70's here, wunderbar!!!! :) :) :)

Subject: Re: Who's Mark Farina? From: Jim To: hamzen Date Posted: Sat, May 18, 2002 at 18:19:04 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Farina's a house dj who's done some really good, well-selling ambient house CD's as the 'mushroom jazz' series. Last night was just a jumble of fairly busy house which was okay. Hell, it's all good, right? Lots of fun afterwards too. Lee has NO steetsmarts. He's dutch. As for going onto LG, well, I hear you Ham but, to tell you the truth, it all seems a bit forced, this Life's Great thing. Perfect reflection of CD's, ahem, 'personality' though. Anyway, you're right about the young un's. How ironic that our generation's youth seems so quaint on reflection. Mind you, you have ot be careful. It was all good then too, in a way. You know .... Mark Farina www.om-records.com/artists/artist_markfarina.html#

Subject: I'm too lazy From: gerry To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, May 17, 2002 at 20:54:54 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: As King around here I would expect some servant class to perform these mundane trivialities while I ponder important issues such as what's for dinner...

Subject: Did I say lazy? Meant laissez-faire From: PatC To: gerry Date Posted: Fri, May 17, 2002 at 21:49:01 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Or is that just some fancy French word for lazy? Whatever. Funny how the coven, and even Scott, thinks you and I exert some sort of ''control'' here. There's actually more control being exerted in the Experimental Anarchy Lab. Jim, if I had CD's IP# I would block him but it's not on F7 currently and I have never looked it up before so I don't have a record of it. Sorry for being so laissez-faire and lazy.

Subject: I'm a slacker... From: gerry To: PatC Date Posted: Fri, May 17, 2002 at 22:29:21 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: or am I too old for that? I don't have records of IPs either, Pat. I guess we're both slackers.

Subject: Re: I'm a slacker...shit From: PatC To: gerry Date Posted: Sat, May 18, 2002 at 00:34:52 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I thought you had inherited Bazza's voluminous records and sat there in your cabin in the woods updating your records for hours everyday. I guess you must be too busy cleaning your guns and shootin' pesky varmints. Shit, I wish you'd told me. I could have sold my business and taken up FAing full-time now that I have won the lottery and am a multi-millionaire.

Subject: Not really From: PatC To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, May 17, 2002 at 14:47:33 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: But on Symp Moll of a Mole has published Catweasel's website. On LG your post of Rawat's pre-Fahrenheit 451 rants has not been deleted this time. (Funny how the PWKs hate being reminded of Rawat's old satsangs.) DavidJ concedes that he would not have cut his hand off for Rawat. Catweasel complains that he has been blocked from F7 and will get a new ISP. Talk about addicted to the ex forum! Deb blames you for brainwashing her into saying nasty things to Catweasel last year. On AG they are still slagging us. Nothing else to talk about I guess. CQ has joined in. Scott and Ham have stuck up for us and ZB is complaining that he is blocked from F7. On Peaches - well..... Catweasel's website www.mbcconsultancy.com.au

Subject: This is Catweasel? From: Cynthia To: PatC Date Posted: Fri, May 17, 2002 at 15:20:44 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: What a nice guy! Catweasel www.mbcconsultancy.com.au/who.htm

Subject: Requirements for a cyberwarrior From: JHB To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, May 17, 2002 at 14:31:13 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jim, I'm disappointed you don't have several ISPs available so that you can log in to any forum, whether you are banned or not. As EPO webmaster I need access even when the entire country I'm living in is under attack, not just when I'm blocked from a forum. As we say in that country I used to live in, get your shit together! John.

Subject: Re: Requirements for a cyberwarrior From: Jim To: JHB Date Posted: Fri, May 17, 2002 at 18:54:15 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I wish, John, but no such luck. By the way, John, would you please consider getting rid of the link to AG on EPO? What's the point, eh? Thanks

Subject: You can do it, Jim From: PatC To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, May 17, 2002 at 21:42:26 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Chuck told me that he emailed you some tricks of the trade or didn't you get it? Yes, I agree about the link to AG. What about a link to Maharaji Watch instead? AG, like every other cult related site, is on that. More tasteful done second-hand.

Subject: Re: Requirements for a cyberwarrior From: Jean-Michel To: JHB Date Posted: Fri, May 17, 2002 at 16:02:27 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Do they still attack Latvia ?

Subject: Osama Bin Maharaji From: Jim To: All Date Posted: Fri, May 17, 2002 at 07:48:42 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Therefore, dear premies, the time has come for restlessness to be destroyed and the Kingdom of Peace to be established. Whether you take it as my prophecy or anything else, the Kingdom of Peace will be established soon. Those people who roam about like insects of the monsoon, misguiding the people, will be set aside. Today people everywhere listen to film songs and do not find time for Truth. Here I say that such films will be destroyed. Those film actors, those directors, those musicians whose music is causing harm to religions and satsang programmes, will cease their work. They are supposed to remind us of God, of Truth, of Lord Rama, Lord Krishna and Lord Nanak, but instead they only show stories of boys and girls. Is this the culture of India? Is this all that remains of the citizens of India? No, I understand that my fellow Indians still have the same blood that they had before and have complete faith that they will know this Name, realize this Knowledge and make others realize it too. Look, doesn't Guru Maharaj Ji give you darshan from time to time? It is for you to sacrifice every drop of blood for Him. Once, Guru Maharaj Ji pretended to His disciple Shiva Ji that His eyes were sore. He said, 'What should I do? Once when I was young, my eyes were sore, and someone gave me the milk of a lioness. I put that on my eyes and they were alright.' Shiva Ji left that place, doing his pranam to Guru Maharaj Ji and saying in his heart, 'O Guru Maharaj Ji, you are all powerful. What can you not do? You can do anything. I surrender myself at your Lotus Feet. Protect me, please,' as you should pray in your heart when you do pranam before Guru Maharaj Ji or His picture. Saying these words, Shiva Ji left. Now the life of Shiva Ji was in the hands of Guru Maharaj Ji and He protected Shiva Ji. ... ... If I ask you to cut your head for Guru Maharaj Ji, you should do it and offer it to Him on a plate. You should sacrifice every drop of blood for Guru Maharaj Ji.

Subject: Why this IS relevant, and fascinating... From: La-ex To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, May 17, 2002 at 22:05:11 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: When you read stuff like this, albeit 30 plus years old, it is still fascinating, because it gives such an insight into the maharaji mindset. When your read bizarre, dark, twisted stuff like this, and stuff like shri hans wrote in hans yog prakash, it gives real insight into what these guys thought of themselves, and what they thought the appropriate relationship was between themselves and other people. Premies wll try and squirm around it, but these old 'satsangs' abound (hard to call them discourses about truth, though), and as much as maharaji tries to hide from his past, these are always here to remind people of how he was indoctrinated and what he really believed about his role. The thing is, he either: 1-Believed this stuff, which is bizarre and very disturbing, or 2-Didn't believe it, but said it anyway, to the premies, which is probably even more bizarre and disturbing. He can't get around it, which is why he just tries to hide from it. Any reasonable discussion of it leads nowhere but to the truth, and maharaji wants to avoid that discussion like the plague. It's just like the age issue. Premies can claim that he said these things when he was just a kid, and therefore should not be held accountable, except that blows the 'perfect master theory', which clearly stated that he was the only fully enlightened soul on the planet, and knew everything to boot. You just can't have it both ways, and now with the ease of showing all of these hypocrisies on the internet, m and the premies simply cannot and will not have any type of reasonable discussion. It is simply too wierd and confronting. BTW, I wonder what 'Leaders' magazine would make of this quote. It might dovetail nicely with the question they asked him about what he was talking about when he was on stage at 8 years old. This rawat is one wierd pup.... What would someone's boss think about this,if their employee was a premie? How about if one of the rawat boys wanted to date a young woman, and her parents wanted to know a litte bit more about the rawat family and family business? Like how did the boy's father makes his money? Can you imagine what they would think when they read some of this stuff from their father? They might think twice before letting their young daughter go out on the town with them. It's a strange and sad story...

Subject: Excellent post, La-Ex From: Jim To: La-ex Date Posted: Fri, May 17, 2002 at 22:15:25 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You're so right. Right about everything. But check out the highlighted excerpts from the Peace Bomb above ('worse than Osama'). It's all there including Maharaji's defence of the crazy shit the mahatma's used to say and which he and everyone else under his apron tries to distance themselves from.

Subject: Shouldn't this be front and center on epo.nt From: La-ex To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, May 17, 2002 at 22:18:35 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: qq

Subject: Is this not, like, the richest irony of all?????? From: Jim To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, May 17, 2002 at 10:13:04 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: How often have we heard premies try to explain away the 'Peace Bomb' and other times Maharaji claimed to be God in Human Form or promised to save the world on the basis that that he was only 12 and thus not to be taken seriously? Problem is, Maharaji, in his infinite wisdom, anticipated that very objection and addressed it as follows: What if I am twelve years old? What does it matter? Old people drive cars and I also can drive a car. What does it matter if I am twelve? If at twelve I can drive a car which one is able to do only at the age of eighteen, why can I not give Knowledge of the Soul at the age of twelve? Is this impossible? This is possible. In London, just for fun, the press reporters from a newspaper printed a photo of mine where I am blessing with both my hands and sitting in meditation. Someone had given them that photo. They titled it, 'Let Me Rule This World.' Their feelings in publishing this were not sincere, but people took that cutting and framed it. The premies in London really appreciated this photo and they displayed it in their houses. Oh, you think I am small and in this small age I will not be able to do anything. But this age is the age of the body and not of the soul. The body is twelve years old, not the soul. And I have a soul. That is how I am speaking - because I have a soul. If my soul departs, I would be dead. What difference does it make whether my body is ten years old or 200 years old? My soul has no age! Whether I am very old or very young, listen to me. The really funny thing is that, as you can tell, it used to be the other people, the skeptics, the disbelievers, the critics, who laughed at Maharaji's age and dismissed his claim to be the Lord of the Universe and promise to save the world (not to mention get rid of worldly music and film!). But now it's the premies!!!!!!!! :)

Subject: Thanks very much, Jim From: Inside Edition To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, May 17, 2002 at 16:28:59 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jim, Thank you very much for these two AMAZING posts. I try and read everything of importance here, but have a hard time keeping up with the bullshit. You have uncovered two more very important pieces of the puzzle, and THAT's why I come here. Thanks again, Inside Edition

Subject: Yes, amazing isn't it? From: Jim To: Inside Edition Date Posted: Fri, May 17, 2002 at 16:33:19 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: God, I just can't wait for the next time I hear a premie try to dismiss Maharaji's big, fat Lord pronouncements on account of his youth. I mean, that was always preposterous to start with but this just makes it even more so. And that bit about ruling the world .... too much, eh?

Subject: But it's all so easily explained... From: Andrea Eriksonn To: Jim Date Posted: Sat, May 18, 2002 at 19:48:31 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ...really, I can't believe your making such a big deal out out of a few minor misunderstandings. That part about chopping your head off for guru Maharaji, and offering it on a plate, you make it sound so scary, like it's a bad thing. But it's not scary at all, not really, because actually, it was nothing more than a scary Halloween story. Maharaji, as a young boy was very fond of telling Halloween stories. And don't start telling me, "He didn't say it in October". That doesn't matter. You see, in India, they have many more holidays than we have in the west. And many of those Holidays are much like our Halloween holiday. The Indians dress up in costumes, dance and tell scary stories. When Maharaji dressed up in His Krishna outfit and danced for us, it was His Halloween costume! And since they have such holidays several times a year in India, He could do it all the time. Why would anyone misundertand, and think He actually meant He was REALLY Krishna? Because He said so? He was JUST KIDDING! Kids will do that, boys will be boys. I think that since we only have Halloween once a year, it made people confused. This is why Maharaji had to emliminate the Indian Trappings, because of these kinds of cultural misunderstandings that were happening. Little Maharaji was just telling scary Halloween Indian stories, like his daddy used to tell Him. Some people thought it was real, just like when Orson Wells did that Radio show in the 1930's and some people thought it was a REAL invasion from Mars. That was also a Halloween misundertanding. See? Sh*t happens. And that comment about ruling the world, please! It was just youthful exuberance, merely the simple joie de vive of a 12 year old! Give the kid a break, He's allowed a little poetic license. None of us COOL premies believed it was REALLY true. I don't know a single modern PWK who would admit to it, and I assure you, NOBODY even talks about it! Mabye you just need to face facts, and admit that the misunderstanding was really all your fault, for not being cool enough. And STOP picking on poor LITTLE Maharaji! :| Andrea Eriksonn :), Who is not bothered by the past, because she knows that the past isn't like that anymore. P.S. I'll bet you were one of those guys who used to wear Sari's in the 70's, because you were so caught up in the Indian Trappings. Sheesh!

Subject: BRILLIANT!!!!!!!! [nt] From: Jim To: Andrea Eriksonn Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 14:27:16 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: CD must not think so -- he blocked me too! From: Jim To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, May 17, 2002 at 12:48:53 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Funny, isn't it? I was wondering how the premies there would react. Well, guess what? Now I know. :)

Subject: Good From: PatC To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, May 17, 2002 at 12:53:42 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I've stopped posting there on the advice of she who must be obeyed. You should have taken her advice too, Rumpole.

Subject: Re: Osama Bin Maharaji From: Salam To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, May 17, 2002 at 08:36:55 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: so when is the gospel according to Jim Heller comming out? Oh oh, no am using a friends computer. And really has anyone told you what a jerk you are? only asking. but I bet you won't even get to read this with your goody goody Putzy quick on the delete botton. Hey, someone found you a charicature, did they pass you the link. Do the people here know that you and your goody goody buddies Putzy are banned from AG, ya two wide eyes mongrols?

Subject: Take it up on Symp (you, too, OTS) From: Jim To: Salam Date Posted: Fri, May 17, 2002 at 09:02:41 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Salam, I would love to hear you explain all your wonderful, intelligent reasons for saying what you do. You, too, OTS. Why don't you guys join me for some good conversation over on Symp? Seems to be the best place for that kind of argument these days.

Subject: The NNTP Alternative. From: Scott T. To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, May 17, 2002 at 09:40:37 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Why don't you guys join me for some good conversation over on Symp? Seems to be the best place for that kind of argument these days. How about alt.cult.maharaji ? No administrator or monitor worries. If you don't like someone you can put him in your 'kill file' so you never even see his posts. The downside is that you need news reader software and an NNTP server. MS Outlook comes bundled with a news reader and the Free University of Berlin maintains a free NNTP server for text only newsgroups (like alt.cult.mahavari). You can sign up for the server at News at FU-Berlin. They'll even tell you how to configure your software at: Configure Software. Of course most ISPs maintain an NNTP server, but I like the one at FU-Berlin anyway, since in rarely goes down and has a long spool (because it doesn't have any binary newsgroups gobbling up bandwidth). --Scott

Subject: Administrator worries? From: Chuck S. To: Scott T. Date Posted: Fri, May 17, 2002 at 13:11:29 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: On The Symposium Forum, I draw the line at identity fraud, because as you yourself have said, it undermines everything about communication. I also draw the line at threats or intimidation, and gross violations of Hotboards TOS, but not much else, fun or no fun. The only people I've blocked at Symposium are Deborah, who would not be civil or reasonable, Barry, who was never a premie, and kept posting porn when I asked him not to, and Djuro, a spammer from Spain. The only posts I've deleted are spam. It's hardly the Third Reich. People can disagree or argue about anything they want. I try to moderate as little as possible, just enough to keep it from becoming Anarchical. You had complained about the identity fraud on AG. I've tried to eliminate that. Do you think there are administrator or monitor worries on Symposium? I'm trying to keep it simple, and administration as minimal as possible, without decending into anarchy.

Subject: Re: Administrator worries? From: Scott T. To: Chuck S. Date Posted: Fri, May 17, 2002 at 14:42:43 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Chuck: You do a fine job on Symp. The point is that on Usenet one doesn't have to rely on having an administrator who is fair, accountable, and consistent. Basically, people manage their own access so if someone just disrupts without adding anything constructive people can just 'killfile' him. It's democratic, and there's an incentive to not 'take it to the limit.' However, because of crossposting it is possible to attract a very destructive crowd who knows how to stealthily hide their identities and IPs. There are programs that block cross-posted messages though. I think the newest version of Agent allows you to do that as well. That usually gets rid of most spam and 'professional' trolls, who are generally too lazy to post to individual newsgroups. The other main disadvantage of Usenet used to be that messages aren't archived, although there are search engines that now archive messages going back quite awhile... maybe years for text only newsgroups. So overall I think Usenet is the best venue for this sort of thing, because this is what Usenet was designed for. And messages load WAY QUICKER too. It preceded the WWW by more than a decade. A News Reader is no more difficult to set up than an email program, but for some reason seems daunting to some people. Oh well. --Scott

Subject: This reminds me... From: Chuck S. To: Scott T. Date Posted: Fri, May 17, 2002 at 22:00:50 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: This reminds me of the discussion we had on Symposium, about getting people motivated to switch to new software that may be superior. While Usnet may have certian advantages and drawbacks, the fact is, people who already know how to navigate and post on a hotboards forum like this one, may not want to learn a new system. And people who have never been to a hotboards forum before, can find it easily if they know how to use a web browser on the internet. This system is relativly easy to learn. Newsgroups have a geek factor. I set up a newsreader once. I couldn't get one to work with Outlook Express, I finally got one to work with Netscape 4.5, but only got it to work with great difficutly, and then didn't like it much. I've read a little about Usenet, looked into Usenet, and have to say that I think many folks might find it too difficult, too geeky. People can just click on a link and find themselves here, without configuring a newsreader first. One of the most valid arguments against Linux on the desktop has been, that it may be easy to use once it's set up and tweaked and configured, but setting it up, tweaking and configuring it is hard, so people won't do it. Because windows is already installed on most new PC's when they are sold, it is the easiest choice, because it's already there and ready to go. In the same way, this Hotboards forum is here and ready to go, you just click on a link to get here. No newsgroup configuration necessary for the user. It's popular because it's the path of least resistance. I set up Symposium on Hotboards, simply because there was no learning curve in going from here to there. I've looked at many different forum hosts since then, and no other offers as much value for the price, and is as easy to learn, as Hotboards. It's not perfect, but it's easy to learn and it's already here.

Subject: Re: This reminds me... From: Scott T. To: Chuck S. Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 03:43:19 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Chuck: While Usnet may have certian advantages and drawbacks, the fact is, people who already know how to navigate and post on a hotboards forum like this one, may not want to learn a new system. And people who have never been to a hotboards forum before, can find it easily if they know how to use a web browser on the internet. I dunno. People who want to join discussions there don't seem to have a problem. Rocket science it's not. For 'virtual' discussions web forums like Hotboards are no more than a pale attempt at imitating Usenet. One of the most valid arguments against Linux on the desktop has been, that it may be easy to use once it's set up and tweaked and configured, but setting it up, tweaking and configuring it is hard, so people won't do it. Because windows is already installed on most new PC's when they are sold, it is the easiest choice, because it's already there and ready to go. Well, I assume you're talking about Internet Explorer, which is the browser. Most systems also come with Outlook Express installed, which contains an easily configurable news reader. It's about as difficult as setting up the email part of Outlook Express, and *everyone* has done that. Type in the name of the server, which is usually something like 'news.myisp.com'. Sometimes you also need an account name and password as well as an email address in case people want to post replys to you that everyone can't read. (Some people use fake emails to confound the spam software, and put the real email in as part of their signature, which isn't a bad idea.) If anything it's easier than email. The only reason you think it's not is that you've never tried it. I still prefer posting on Usenet. Hotboards may be easy and here, but you get what you pay for. A Usenet2 has been proposed, which will make some needed improvements on Usenet to make professional trollery more difficult. Hasn't taken off though. --Scott

Subject: East West journal article on EPO and From: Jean-Michel To: All Date Posted: Fri, May 17, 2002 at 06:50:28 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: help needed. An Expressway over Bliss Mountain Hardhats may be needed past a certain point by Phil Levy Here's the article. But my software can't process, as the print quality seems too poor. Anybody wanting to type it - or able to OCR process it ?

Subject: I am not anti ex-premie From: Sir Dave To: All Date Posted: Fri, May 17, 2002 at 03:43:53 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: OK, you might be sick of hearing about me and I can understand it if you are so I'll finish this on one final point, which I posted to Hamzen on The ANYTHING GOES forum. The church ladies I was aluding to were Jim and PatC, not the ex-premie presence in general. I find that Jim and PatC are too rigid and for that reason they could be described as church ladies. Like really vicious insult - not! Hamzen, in my original church ladies post, it was written to Salam who had expressed being fed up with the whole thing. Jim took my comments out of context. Of course I'm not against EPO or Forum 7. I still have links to both of them from my many ex-premie web sites. Some people may try and paint me as an anti-ex person but nothing could be further from the truth.

Subject: Yes, Dave, we see you're neither pro nor anti From: PatC To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Fri, May 17, 2002 at 11:44:52 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Over on Symp you said: ''Well, I am not ashamed of the post. It was not written to you or Jim but to Salam, in words he would be able to relate to. It was to Salam, not to anyone else although of course, other people could read it and make their own minds up about it. But I stress, it was written to Salam with full understanding of his frame of mind. You would have to read his post that I was answering to, to understand why I wrote the post.'' If it was only meant for Salam, why did you then post it on LG and not just on AG? You can try to be all things to all men but you can't have your cake and eat it, as Shakespeare said in ''Much Ado About Nothing'' or was that the Mother's Day card I sent to my ex mother-in-law? Sir Dave's post on LG www.hotboards.com/plus/plus.mirage?who=premieforum&id=8985.4346791538423

Subject: Re: I am not anti ex-premie From: OTS To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Fri, May 17, 2002 at 06:32:53 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I totally agree with your analysis of Jim and PatC's roles here. I also agree that the value of EPO and F7 are LARGE. and Jim's and PatC's SMALL.

Subject: Sorry you find me rigid, OTS. From: PatC To: OTS Date Posted: Fri, May 17, 2002 at 11:52:57 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: In what way would you say I could be more flexible? Be a bit more jokey and not quite as po-faced and pious as I am? :C) Fudge? Tell fibs? Tolerate fibs? Tolerate fudge? Pray tell, oh wise one. But you do realise, don't you, that your opinions would carry much greater weight if we knew who you were?

Subject: No Biggie From: OTS To: PatC Date Posted: Fri, May 17, 2002 at 13:02:57 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You're doing fine PatC, but you assumed something about where I got my information that was totally incorrect and accused me of perhaps something I wasn't a part of. Anyway, no biggie. In fact, I love you PATC. And hope you're finer and finer forever. I won't be continuing to post, but I thank EVERYONE on EPO for their assistance in my life. Don't sweat it, Pat. Keep up your good efforts which are sincere. We're all not and never will be perfect. Cheers to all

Subject: Re: No Biggie From: Thorin To: OTS Date Posted: Sat, May 18, 2002 at 04:44:36 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: OTS Excuse me if I butt in on this private conversation - I hope you don't mind. OTS, I have always found your posts and thoughts to be illuminating and useful. As indeed I do with Patc an Jim's posts. I hope that you will feel in due course coming back here and posting. I would welcome that very much. Thanks, Thorin

Subject: I don't understand, OTS From: PatC To: OTS Date Posted: Fri, May 17, 2002 at 13:57:31 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I don't like misunderstandings especially if I have misunderstood something. Would you explain to me please? I thought you were agreeing with Sir Dave that I am rigid. If you don't want to post maybe tell me by email? I've been meaning to email you and see how you are. I'm sorry you haven't been posting and won't post anymore.

Subject: I'm Fine, thanks From: OTS To: PatC Date Posted: Fri, May 17, 2002 at 14:06:04 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Pls e-mail me. Thanks.

Subject: Good, I will email you. [nt] From: PatC To: OTS Date Posted: Fri, May 17, 2002 at 14:41:25 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Don't mind him, Pat From: Jim To: PatC Date Posted: Fri, May 17, 2002 at 12:25:43 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: He's just got this seething anger thing. Too bad but it's true.

Subject: Oh, I thought it was because From: PatC To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, May 17, 2002 at 12:58:29 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I don't have any sense of humor and am boring and bossy and block everyone and delete all the posts every night.

Subject: Cher is God From: PatC To: All Date Posted: Thurs, May 16, 2002 at 19:35:45 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Tonight on Will and Grace, Cher plays the part of God. She took lessons from Thelma. You too can be Satguru www.geocities.com/cmsjourney/sc/satgooroo/u2satgooroo.htm

Subject: Eeeek ! From: Loaf To: PatC Date Posted: Thurs, May 16, 2002 at 21:06:43 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Faqir Chand: No. I used to pray to him within my own mind. I never went to any place. Once I was going and Lord Krishna was going ahead of me. There was some cow dung lying on the ground. That image of Lord Krishna asked me to eat that cow dung. I took a morsel of cow dung and ate it.

Subject: question to new exes From: rgj To: All Date Posted: Thurs, May 16, 2002 at 15:48:01 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: A couple of people recently announced that they were abandoning their affiliation to Rawat, and mentioned the EPO as helping them to make the break. I would just like to ask anyone willing to share which part of EPO was most significant in helping them to 'see the light': the information about Guru trips, revelations from PAMs in the know, the Journeys, the forum discussions, or just the cumulative effect. TIA Rob

Subject: I've never lost a premie yet From: Lesley To: rgj Date Posted: Fri, May 17, 2002 at 14:20:13 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Maharaji was widely purported to have said that, and as a premie, I believed it, I guess I just thought that some premies were having difficulties but would come round, Maharaji was looking after them. And that is how I viewed premies who left. So when I heard about EPO, I thought how come nobody is talking to them, and logged on. The thing that got me was reading the old stuff, reading the journeys and posts in which exes talked frankly about the early days of DLM, what we were told, and told eachother, what we did, what we believed. I just sat there going 'how could I have forgotten that?!?'. I became aware of how the forked tongue path I had followed of Listening to the Master had gone nowhere but round a mulberry bush, and that retaining the early belief that Guru Maharaji spoke the Truth, had produced a situation where I, along with the other listeners, had been playing a sort of simon sez game with him, the prize being acceptance, being a 'politically correct premie'. There was a line written by an ex about a batch of burnt cookies and not trusting Maharaji to peel a potato that struck a huge chord with me. I would just like to add that life after premiedom frequently reminds me of that old saying about hitting your head against a brick wall, it's great when you stop. Sure, there has been a lot of hard feelings, a lot to digest, but after nearly thirty years of the drudge job, the game of being a premie, retirement is bliss! I know that premies who know me, have witnessed the fun and the pleasure I had as a premie, find it hard to understand how I can now turn around and say it was a drudge job, a painfully stupid game paid for with real assets. The gratitude and affection I feel for my old friends remains undiminished, despite the lack of current communication, I hope they do understand one day.

Subject: Burnt Cookies From: Marshall To: Lesley Date Posted: Fri, May 17, 2002 at 18:58:35 (PDT) Email Address: none Message: Lesley, As I understand it the 'burnt cookies' crap started with gmj himself of all things. At a late 90's gathering gmj sid that his current premies were akin to a 'batch of burnt cookies' and then he threatened to get a 'new batch' of premies. Raw and uncooked I suppose.

Subject: ignore. nt From: test To: Marshall Date Posted: Sat, May 18, 2002 at 23:41:51 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: nt

Subject: And who burnt the cookies? [nt] From: Livia To: Marshall Date Posted: Sat, May 18, 2002 at 07:04:17 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: Burnt Cookies From: Livia To: Marshall Date Posted: Sat, May 18, 2002 at 07:00:36 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Well that's nice, isn't it! He brainwashes us with a load of old Hindu concepts for 20 years and then when we find it hard to move on swiftly to the new revised model, suggests blithely that he'll drop us all in favour of a new batch he can brainwash with a different story. Then I suppose in a few years he'll need to get rid of that lot too and start on another lot, and so on and so on. The only ones that will stick around for the whole duration will be those who have totally taken leave of any integrity, ethics and selves they ever had, leaving nothing but a bare shell that he can manipulate into any shape he wants. Looking at what signs of life exist over at LG (with only a couple of exceptions) you can see the evidence plain and clear. Shiver. Love, Livia, who is glad she got out just in time.

Subject: Re: Burnt Cookies From: Marshall To: Livia Date Posted: Sat, May 18, 2002 at 10:18:17 (PDT) Email Address: none Message: Hi Livia, I've been thinking, is burnt actually a word? Is it supposed to be burned? Is burnt a corrupt slang form of burned? Does it matter? Am I in my mind for wondering/worrying about this stuff? Ciao, Marshall

Subject: Re: burnt or burned From: Livia To: Marshall Date Posted: Sat, May 18, 2002 at 15:56:54 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Don't worry about being 'in your mind' for wondering about this stuff! 'Burnt' is in my dictionary here as verb: 'past tense and past participle of burned', and adjective: 'affected by or as if by burning, charred. Burned isn't listed but I think it's the past tense of 'burn'. They're pretty interchangeable, but you would tend to say 'burnt cookies' rather than burned, and 'the fire burned through the night' rather than burnt. In other words you'd use burned for a slower process, and burnt for a fait accompli, or something. I think. love, Livia, in a grammatical mood

Subject: Re: Burnt Cookies From: Lesley To: Marshall Date Posted: Sat, May 18, 2002 at 12:51:43 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yes it's an adjective I suppose, describing the state of something that has been burned.

Subject: Re: question to new exes From: Coming Around To: rgj Date Posted: Thurs, May 16, 2002 at 17:03:56 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: First of all... thanks to Brian, Richard and PatC for their supportive comments.. as I continue to sort things out, perhaps some day I'll get to know some of you a little better (are any of you located in the LA area?).. Anyway, in response to your question, rgi, it really has been a cumulative effect, but the first hook that got my attention had to be testimonies from Dettmers, Donner,the Mishler interview, and a few other PAM's that were first hand witnesses to M 'behind the scenes'. From there I was inspired to go deeper into all aspects of EPO and spent MANY hours reading threads after threads. I once again thank the individuals who put together such a comprehensive site and present an extremely defensible stance as to why anyone currently under 'the spell' should step back and review the facts. For myself, I was meditating on fairly similar techniques before I met M, and I have discovered that I can still experience a peaceful quiet feeling from meditation without the pranam before and after (thanking him for everything)... I bought the 'Lord of the Universe' package, and that is what has crushed me- to discover that I am not one of the fortunate beggars on the planet that was blessed to have the Lord reveal himself to me (and that if I simply stay connected through meditation, darshan, and participation, I'll be saved and make it to the promised land...) My life up to this point was centered around M & K, and now I find myself approaching 50 without any real carreer skills to make serious money for retirement because I walked away from offers from my parents to stay in college for the 'Knowledge we couldn't get in College'... hence, I'm experiencing some bitterness and regret, among other emotions... but I guess I'm starting to ramble now, so I'll sign off for the time being... thanks again

Subject: Thanks Coming Around From: Marianne To: Coming Around Date Posted: Thurs, May 16, 2002 at 17:19:18 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Welcome! Making the first few posts is always tough. It can be especially so due to a few premies who may decide to taunt you, and challenge your identity as a newly minted ex-premie. Since you have been reading for a long time, you know it can get rough and tumble here sometimes. There are many folks here who will lend a helping hand and post should you get targeted by those still in the thrall of the Master. I am always curious about new folks. Are you comfortable telling us when and where you got k and from whom? Were you an ashram premie? How did you find the site? There are lots of exes all over California. Again welcome. I look forward to your continued contributions. Marianne

Subject: Re: Thanks Coming Around From: Coming Around To: Marianne Date Posted: Thurs, May 16, 2002 at 17:37:44 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: First- thank you for your comments... as I stated before, for my own reasons, I'm not quite ready to come out of the closet just yet, so by answering your question of when, where and from whom I recieved k would probably start some smart card info keeper to do a little research and the games would begin... yes I was a long time ashram resident... I'm a little hesitant to respond to how I discovered the EPO site because it was quite by accident, and I wouldn't want that avenue potentially prevented for some other premie like me to discover in the future.

Subject: hello CA and welcome but Dont be Afraid From: Loaf To: Coming Around Date Posted: Thurs, May 16, 2002 at 20:55:29 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I have been posting here regularly for a few years, and mention my own name (Ian Warburton) and location (Liverpool UK) from time to time. At first I was extremely nervous - just like you. I felt that I was being disloyal and that Glen Whittaker (whom I like, Maharaji and other people would know who I was and hate me for being here. I was quite a well known person in my community.An Instructor candidate in the UK, young and enthusiastic, I threw myself as deeply into Knowledge and the social pyramid of premies as I could, and for the most part, loved every minute of it. So, having been a verbal and visible ex for a few years now, its odd that my local co-ordinator type person (Paddy Best) doesnt seem to have a CLUE what is going on (And those PWSK who know her will be chuckling !) and comes round to see me socially the other day and babbles on and on about Australia to me. I think the important thing to remember is that THEY are all too insecure, looking after their own 'relationship' with Maharaji to really care about you coming or going. We as individuals are not as important to them as we flatter ourselves. They dont SEE us as people, just supporting actors in their own movie starring PPSR. The problem is that in allowing Maharaji to become a sub-concious role model and father-figure, it is THAT which we project onto him that it is hard to turn away from, or to deny. Judas mythology abounds. It is an amazing journey Exiting. It Does get better and more blissful (it has for me) as I re-integrate myself with my psychology and social needs. Just remember that what started you out on this journey was the search for the truth (concious or not) - and the search continues ! We are very fortunate to have experienced what we have... and to have outgrown the need for a particular teacher is NO MATTER OF SHAME. Good luck my friend, and welcome to the company of Truth. Loafie

Subject: Thats it! Judas! The keyword. From: Bryn To: Loaf Date Posted: Fri, May 17, 2002 at 03:42:48 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Once again its me clinging to your coatails Loaf, but YES YES, Judas. Judas is such a powerful hidden figure in all this. Judas, the one who sold the lord. 'It would have been better for him if he had never been born' etc. The one who really blew it. Thats how they treat you and thats how you treat yourself. NOBODY wants to be Judas. JUDAS! (....breaking into opening bars of 'Like a Rolling Stone) Love BD

Subject: Thanks Coming Around From: PatC To: Coming Around Date Posted: Thurs, May 16, 2002 at 17:55:06 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I like your calm clear voice, CA. For me seeing who's behind the wizard's curtain was the most important part of EPO. It didn't seem like it at first because first you say, ''Well, his human side is endearing.'' Then perhaps, ''Well, that's just Mischler's opinion.'' Then stuff like the hit-and-run homicide sink in. I think one must be very deluded to then continue to have any respect for Rev Rawat. Well, that is amply demonstrated by the perverse posts of the forum cult-apologists.

Subject: Welcome to CA & Answer to rgj From: Crispy To: PatC Date Posted: Fri, May 17, 2002 at 10:10:51 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hello rgj. I'm not exactly sure why you would be asking. If you're an ex yourself, you probably have your own reasons. Maybe you are contemplating exing or a curious pwk trying to probe or gage the phenomena of why people are leaving Mj's world in droves, both silently and vocally. Maybe you are a defender of the faith just trying to understand the enemy of the faith. In any case, I would like to answer. I didn't start reading EPO until last fall after a KIT training session I attended. Before that I was enjoying a nice experience of Knowledge in our quiet, small, peaceful, friendly outfield community where only the very refined organization-edited news would reach our unsuspecting ears. I had heard of an ex-premie website causing a lot of damage to Mj's public rep, but never felt bothered to read it. I had the attitude of 'why disturb a nice experience that was working just fine for me by engaging someone else's doubts and confusions'. However, the KIT was my final drip (or coagulation point as AJW described) that gave me the feeling it was time to check out what the ex-premies had to say for a change. As I was driving away from that training session, my thoughts were this will be the last training session I attend; I really don't need this anymore and I really don't want to continute being a part of what was becoming an obvious deceptive charade. Mj's not-so-pretty colors were emerging and he had slipped just far enough off the pedestal I had him on for 2 decades to make me consider that he's a human being with enough flaws that can and should be questioned, perfect master or not. All my premie fears of the dangers of engaging mind, questioning the perfect one, other premies' contempt for exes, etc. were just not good enough any more to stop me at that point. I knew I wasn't doubting the experience; I was questioning the imperfect system and getting to know its leader more completely - to get a feel for the real man behind the scenes, behind the show. I found EPO easily via net search. My initial reaction was the scoffing sarcasm and the decades-old-observations-stance were a bit discrediting. But my drip was strong enough to continue reading - I wanted to hear what they had to say. I started with Dettmers, Mishler's and Macgregor's posts because I knew they were intelligent, sincere devotees and had a much closer look at the every-day Prem. I would say the lines that started my gears rolling the most were 'the Master-Student relationship is dysfunctional; and Mj may have started out sincerely but he's just got the equation around the wrong way: the mind is our self, our discrimination, while K is the illusion.' These were, of course, a lot to chew on at first! But they held up more strongly under examination than the beliefs I had held dearly for so long. And it was not just EPO that alerted me to the reality of what had been going down. Books about cult mind control techniques also greatly helped me over the exit curve. They identified all the disguises and traps premies had ignorantly fallen into, ironic as it is that people inside a cult can't see that it's a cult. But then again, not so ironic, as it was these techniques that harboured the tricks. Before officially exiting, I sent an email to Maharaji asking him to directly respond to me about all the accusations placed against him. I specified that lines like 'What you dig up is what you will find', or 'seek perfection in Knowledge, not me or my organization', or ' let your heart be the judge' or ' by his fruits you will know him' - none of these lines are relevant any more in light of the picture I'm faced with. I specified if my devotion means anything to him, then please respond or I will consider the accusations true and withdraw my support. I've never sent anything remotely threatening to him in any way before, but now I felt it was due. It was too crucial. Yes, I have a nice experience in meditation. But I could have same from many different sources, and more honest sources. In that light I could say I respect Krishnamurti more than Maharaji. Maharaji's silence is tightening the last screw in his own coffin. In December I started lurking on F7. In January I exited with an official bang by posting my impressions of the KIT training, not out of grudges and hatred, but out of wanting to contribute to the effort of making the deception known publicly. A lot of criticisms have been given to exes for swallowing concepts from malicious sources. But that's way too lame in light of the drips I've seen. I'm exhilarated to be able to stake my own flag on my own ground with my own experience, which, by the way, trained pwk's are not allowed to do without *You Know Who's* permission. On re-reading your question of what was the most significant influence, I would also like to note that it was my own personal drips as a premie that laid the groundwork for my receptivity to EPO's message in the first place, the KIT training session being the last straw. I knew I was on my way out of premiedom for good while driving home after that session. Crispy: Sun in Lurker, Moon in Me-Too, and Ascendant on the cusp of Grunter and Pithy Phrase

Subject: thank you forum 7 From: Coming Around... To: All Date Posted: Thurs, May 16, 2002 at 13:06:01 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: After 30 years (some good, some not)I discovered EPO around January of 2002, and it's been a pretty intense period of my life... depression, bitterness, confusion, to name a few... Slowly, I'm coming around, and soon i feel I will come out of the closet and post under my name with my entire journey, but today I just want to give a heartfelt THANK YOU to all who give their time and energy to this forum and EPO... I might have stayed in the trance for another 30 years had it not been for you. I'm feeling like I was lost, found, and now lost again (as far as spiritual truth), but I would rather be lost and consciously searching than living in a dream, funding someone elses yachts, etc... more later. thanks again..

Subject: I totally understand From: Brian Smith To: Coming Around... Date Posted: Thurs, May 16, 2002 at 16:06:01 (PDT) Email Address: bgsmith@teleport.com Message: Having just exited after 29 years Jan 2001 and I can freshly relate to all of those feelings you described in your post. The bitterness the confusion, the depression of having the most sacred part of yourself violated; these feelings are a significant part of the process many of us go through. But rest assured they will pass away in time. In my case after a time these feeling gave way to a renewed sense of restored personal integrity. Instead of trying to rope someone into my self perceived superior belief system I now possess the clarity to accept people on their own terms and not look for ways to provoke or bring up spiritual issues just so I can pontificate MY version of enlightment via the rawat method. It is refreshing for the first time in ages that I can just be with someone and not carry this baggage of laying this heavy cult and cult leader trip on them at some point. I no longer have the need to find some way to get a spiritual foot in the door and introduce them to the local video event or whatever. Today I am free from all of that and more. I am finding that the journey of reclaiming ones self will is far more exciting and empowering than anything rawat ever showed me. This is self knowledge at its best and all one needs is one's own self to travel the journey. No need to be emotionally enslaved to a false master or his bogus teachings or strive for acceptance from a cult group to complete a sense of belonging and direction. It is quite freeing and it gets better as I get stronger with each passing month. My commitment today is to help as many people as I can transition out of the cult. The intial stage of exiting can be quite fragile and confusing so please feel free to contact me off line if you would like to talk privately. All the best to you CA, Brian Smith

Subject: Welcome C.A. From: Richard To: Coming Around... Date Posted: Thurs, May 16, 2002 at 14:47:58 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Be easy on yourself and let those feelings fly. It's a real 'meglolis' to unravel for sure. I look forward to hearing more of your story. All the best on your continued journey. Take care, Richard

Subject: 'Meglolis'! Yes! Ho Ho . Nt From: Bryn To: Richard Date Posted: Fri, May 17, 2002 at 03:46:42 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Welcome to the Lost Boys of Neverland From: PatC To: Coming Around... Date Posted: Thurs, May 16, 2002 at 13:18:26 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You said: ''I would rather be lost and consciously searching than living in a dream, funding someone elses yachts, etc'' We all feel a lot cleaner and more honest not having phony answers to equally phony questions.

Subject: Boys? Pat? From: Cynthia To: PatC Date Posted: Thurs, May 16, 2002 at 13:50:13 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Ummm...last time I looked...well...never mind.:)

Subject: Sorry, Wendy. :P [nt] From: PatC To: Cynthia Date Posted: Thurs, May 16, 2002 at 14:22:54 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Today's Daily Wisdom From: Jim To: All Date Posted: Thurs, May 16, 2002 at 12:44:07 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: What a shame to let Hans Yog Prakash and those other early sermons and scriptures of Maharaji and his father languish away. Well, seeing as the premies aren't interested, doesn't mean that we can't take succor from this succulent fruit of this wet, juicy Tree of Heaven: Lustful women who pay no heed to the words of Satguru, but make a show of modesty on the outside, says Kabir, become bitches who moan wherever they go. Shri Hans (from Hans Yog Prakash)

Subject: But hang on here.. From: Nigel To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, May 16, 2002 at 17:25:13 (PDT) Email Address: nige@redcrow.demon.co.uk Message: a priory scepticism is all very well, Jim, but just suppose Shri Hans ji was right here...? Hansi made an objective, supposedly factual statement and - given the right double-blind, experimental design - someone should have a go at falsifying it. Far better to make sure that women who make a show of themselves on the outside do not, after all your best efforts, become bitches, moaning all over the place... Who'd want that?

Subject: 'Moaning all over the place' From: Moley To: Nigel Date Posted: Thurs, May 16, 2002 at 17:28:39 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I thought you liked the moaning, honey..

Subject: He likes the moaning but not the bitching From: PatC To: Moley Date Posted: Thurs, May 16, 2002 at 17:57:56 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Both of Shri Hans' wives must have been nags. Wanna bet?

Subject: Just discovered new Shri Hans Satsang! From: Jim To: Moley Date Posted: Thurs, May 16, 2002 at 17:48:56 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dear premies, So, premies, when yo' bitch moan lahk dat -- know wh'am sen'? -- when she rilly moan lahk dat, well ah ken tell youse summin' -- she sho' not lizin uh me, boi. Hell, no WAY se lizin uh me. Dat's why de bitch is moanin'! Whussa madda you? Don't you see dat? Why, dat bitch she be moanin' all ovuh de place. UM uh, no way, she MY bitch! MY bitch moan right here inside, ya' hir me?

Subject: Re: Pwk Daddy post OT From: Richard To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, May 17, 2002 at 21:51:50 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I notice my Pwk Daddy rap post was deleted. My apologies to anyone who was offended by it. It was as misogynistic and violent as many rap songs are and it was tacky of me to post it. I was just playing for laughs amidst the tedium of AG sandbox squabbles. Sorry folks. Richard

Subject: Now THIS is hilarious! From: Jim To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, May 16, 2002 at 15:21:13 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: So every once in a while, someone on LG anonymously posts some wise saying from some 'great man' or another. So today I thought I'd offer something too, the wisdom of none other than the great Shri Hans Ji Maharaji. So what does CD do? He deletes it! Well, I also submitted it to the 'Wit and Wisdom' section of ELK. Wonder what THEY'll do. :)

Subject: Here's what you can do Jim! From: Jim S. To: Jim Date Posted: Sat, May 18, 2002 at 08:38:34 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Why not start a 'wit and wisdom' section on epo, with some of the gems from m, his dad and the holy family? (Oh god, how did we EVER buy into ANY of this,even for a second)

Subject: Re: Now THIS is hilarious! From: Pat W To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, May 17, 2002 at 13:04:31 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hilarious maybe... and yet it is quite sad the way that premies deify Maharaji and Shri Hans and yet are so cross with those who are not as willing as them to forgive and forget all of the heavy doctrine that was once so much a part of the whole thing. I was once so affected (intimidated) by all that heavy talk that now I feel, in a way, Maharaji still owes me a personal apology or explanation. That's just the way I feel. Since it seems that such a simple helpful, kind gesture is really not about to happen, I have no alternative but to get on with my life and not repeat the mistake - but I confess - I do find Maharaji's unwillingness to help his former devotees (for that is what we were) when they really needed him, very hurtful and of course very telling . These days I feel pretty clear about the pitfalls of the whole thing. I suppose that as much as I would like to get others to see the way I do, I now feel that if anyone is stupid enough to become a trusting Premie then they kind deserve the dysfunction and denial that they are inviting upon themselves. After all, the current crop of newbies can never say they weren't warned, since now there is so much material published which anyone in their right mind would look at before getting involved. It'll be interesting to see how far Maharaji can change the whole set up to show that he and his Knowledge no longer resemble the crazy cult world that his critics recall. So my basic gut feeling is that if these Masters can spout all this authoratative stuff and then later decide it was a mistake (putting it down to youth or old age crankiness or whatever) then who's to say they are not currently making mistakes that they will later rue? All those who put their trust in him now will then be feeling sore in that event. I guess I have too much at stake to just go on trusting Maharaji when I have personally been at the wrong end of his 'youthful errors'. My experience is that without trust the whole card house soon comes crashing down. And so to bed...camping at the bottom of the garden with my kids!

Subject: Why there will be no explanation.. From: Jim ..S. To: Pat W Date Posted: Sat, May 18, 2002 at 08:31:02 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I believe that for m to ever really give a meaningful explanation, or apology, it would have to start with him really telling the truth about everything, including how indoctrinated and confusd he has been from the start, leading to his alcoholism, affairs, money games etc... By the time that story got told, who would be left to follow? What money would EVER come in? No, I think ANY explanation leads to economic disaster for him.... Denial, obfuscation and ridicule of exes, along with that fat, smug stage persona is his only way out...

Subject: Most enjoyable read. Thanks Pat W [nt] From: PatC To: Pat W Date Posted: Sat, May 18, 2002 at 01:47:03 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: God, I love it when Shri Hans talked dirty [nt] From: PatC To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, May 16, 2002 at 13:21:48 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: they keep me awake at night [nt] From: Loaf To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, May 16, 2002 at 12:58:37 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I think they have a nest over my bedroom window or something... moan moan moan

Subject: Why do these guys sound like robots? From: Jim To: All Date Posted: Thurs, May 16, 2002 at 12:39:23 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: This is from 'Andrew' (Turner? Jack Tuff?) over on LG. It's addressed to Livia but really it should be most properly addressed to Maharaji, Shri Hans and every other joker who, if Andrew's right, mislead us so terribly. Hello John, I've tried a different search engine in the hope I can read posts in the View All area a bit quicker. Alas it is no different, so I have only replied to one of the posts under mine there, and once again I have posted my reply on this page. Livia wonders why M 'told not to attempt to practise the 3rd technique all day any more.' I would venture to suggest that one deeply felt contact with the Name and one would understand completely how much one could and couldn't experience it. It couldn't be a more natural thing to do and such primary self awareness is paramount to successful practice. But she answered her own question in her following paragraph where she states; 'I received Knowledge in 1972 and had spent over a decade attempting to control my mind for the best part of each day by the practise of this technique.' I'd say that is why he changed it! Because some people treated it as some kind of a religious ritual to be strictly observed at all costs - rather than the most natural thing to relax into and enjoy. 'Attempting to control my mind?' That is a ludicrous idea! The teachers I have observed all stipulate that one MUST use one's intelligence when embarking on this path. No offence intended, but I get the impression that Livia did not use her god given intelligence in this matter. One has to follow one's heart and not blindly mimick some devotional practive heard about from someone else. It should have been a relief for Livia when her teacher advised that she cease such futile observances. Why wasn't it? It seems to me that Livia and others have missed the fundamental point of the practice. That is, to contact the divine intelligence and great beauty inside us, via any or all of the techniques revealed. The teacher knows very well that once this connection genuinely takes place, (genuinely is the key) his role is then only that of a guide and inspiration. The answers to all our questions comes from contact with that power within. It is the ultimate guiding force in our lives, M is merely there to remind us of that fact, because it is extremely easy to forget such a preposterous notion, true though it may be. We go to see him then, not so much to learn, as to thank him and celebrate with. I have noticed several exes boasting about the nature of their devotional practice, how studied and correct they were. More's the pity they were so pleased with themselves about it. It is so easy to have an imaginary experience rather than a genuine one and it is only some time later that one has to eat that reality. Imagination is not the way. I suspect that many people in the early 1970's chose the 'path of truth' because it was a fashionable thing to do. It occurs to me that some of those posting at F7 may have chosen M and K for all the wrong reasons. There's no mystery to experiencing the om, it's like fine tuning a V12 motor car engine, it either goes properly or it doesn't. If not, there are three blindingly simple checklists to consult and the problem is found. Knowledge is the same, if it doesn't work then there are are easy, though perhaps slightly confronting, but quickly found explanations. Naturally, no-one likes to be confronted with their own shortcomings or failures. Unfortunately, time has not allowed me to read any more of the posts (replying to mine) over the page. Apologies and I will try to get back over there soon. Andrew

Subject: We were safer on the pole. From: Sulla To: Jim Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 09:37:57 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I think premie minds were safer going up and down the pole all day than they are now, directly in the wolf's hands, fresh like new to be reprogramed in a more sophisticated way. Why does he say now that you better not talk when you are experiencing? Why does he say that all this K trip is not a spiritual path, if we always knew that it was supposed to be? The pole, the k, the experience was, what one premie said in the forum, the cheese, that attached us to him, the spell from which some escape but others remain, no more magic, no more love, no more conscience but plain submission for nothing and because of nothing. An army withouth soul but full of new distorted concepts about life and what is to be a human being.

Subject: Re: 'Attempting to control my mind?' From: AV To: Jim Date Posted: Sat, May 18, 2002 at 10:03:27 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: your quote:..'Attempting to control my mind?' That is a ludicrous idea! The teachers I have observed all stipulate that one MUST use one's intelligence when embarking on this path. What teachers? Quote your references or don't refer. You were obviously dragged out of the room every time the satsang about 'the king getting his uncontrollable genie to climb up and down the pole all day to stop him from being devoured' was being told; an obvious allegory to the 'mind'. I find your post and criticism of Liv insulting, maybe not from intent, but from your own personal ignorance of the background. 'better a bullet in the head than a doubt in the mind' ....how relaxing! how intelligent!

Subject: Re: 'Attempting to control my mind?' From: Livia To: AV Date Posted: Sat, May 18, 2002 at 16:06:34 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi AV, nice to see you back. Bolly and I have been wondering where you were! Hope all's been well with you. Thanks for the above - I kind of knew when I was writing that phrase 'attempting to control my mind' that the premies would pile in and tell me I'd missed the point, but thought what the hell. Anybody that was there knows full well that the mind was portrayed as the enemy back then. That 'genie up and down the pole' story is an apposite quote - I remember it well. The fear of 'being devoured' was with us all. I recall reading Buddhist stuff and seeing references to 'just allow your thoughts to do their thing - don't attempt to fight them' and wishing Maharaji would say something like that. But he never did. Oh well, it's all in the past. I find meditation much deeper and simpler now without all those crazy concepts about 'the mind'. Love to you, Livia

Subject: Re: 'Attempting to control my mind?' From: AV To: Livia Date Posted: Sat, May 18, 2002 at 16:18:28 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Love to you too, and Bolly...severe tea drinking frenzy in order some time, doilies, drizzle cake et al. chasethatshitaround X

Subject: Drizzle cake? From: PatC To: AV Date Posted: Sat, May 18, 2002 at 16:21:10 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: That's not the cake where you pour brandy all over it and put gin in your tea and then cry all over the cake?

Subject: Re: Drizzle cake? From: AV To: PatC Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 09:38:41 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: of course it is, hell, what else is left!!??

Subject: what else is left!!?? From: PatC To: AV Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 10:34:26 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Mmmm? Tea and sympathy. :C)

Subject: Re: what else is left!!?? From: AV To: PatC Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 12:09:23 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: well I'll take as much of that as you can pour down my throat... ggggggggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhh mmmmmmmm teeeee (shudder);~)

Subject: Sounds like guesswork to me From: PatC - Jerry wasted this post on LG To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, May 16, 2002 at 17:07:37 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: So, Andrew, you think the reason Rawat eliminated practicing the third technique constantly was to relax our aching minds that were trying, in such vain, to realize that perfect place within. Are you serious, or is that just YOU'RE aching mind reaching, in vain, to come up with an answer to the question? When did Maharaji ever give the explanation you just did? I doubt ever, yet you think Livia should be grateful for a kindness that Maharaji, himself, has never claimed to give. My suggestion to you is to stop supplying answers to questions you have no clue to what the answer is. This is a predicament I find premies constantly finding themselves in. An ex asks a question why Maharaji does something and premies reply with what they think is the reason, but the truth is they have no idea because Maharaji, himself, has never addressed the issue. So, this is what you're really stuck with, Andrew - questions with no answers - because Maharaji has never bothered to address them. I don't see that changing in the near future. In the meantime, might I suggest that you not be so condescending to exes who ask such questions because, in asking them, we're only trying to point out how unimportant they must be to Maharaji since he never answers them. Yet, obviously, they're very important to us, former as well as current devotees, because we keep asking them and premies keep trying to supply answers they can only guess at. Shouldn't that tell you something about Maharaji? What's important to us he couldn't care less about. As far as he's concerned only what's important to him has any real value, and if you're not in sync with that, as far as he's concerned, you're not worth bothering with.

Subject: Memory failure, Andrew From: Nigel To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, May 16, 2002 at 16:14:52 (PDT) Email Address: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk Message: 'Attempting to control my mind?' That is a ludicrous idea! The teachers I have observed all stipulate that one MUST use one's intelligence when embarking on this path. No offence intended, but I get the impression that Livia did not use her god given intelligence in this matter. One has to follow one's heart and not blindly mimick some devotional practive heard about from someone else. It should have been a relief for Livia when her teacher advised that she cease such futile observances. A lot of food for thought there, Andrew (if you are reading this). When you say 'controlling the mind is a ludicrous idea'. Well of course it is! I couldn't agree more - for a start, what could you possibly control it with, other than by using that same mind? - in which case you are in a kind of catch 22... But the person - indeed, only person most guilty of perpetrating this nonsense, was a certain Prem Rawat, especially during the super-devotional period from 1976 - 1982. Perhaps I remember this better than you, since my own affiliation ended a few years later. Perhaps the changes have been so gradual for you since then, you have barely noticed them happening. But believe me, the mind was the mortal enemy of all of us, and only by 'constantly meditating and remembering the Holy Name...' (Commandment number 2) did we stand a hope in hell of either (a) becoming a proper devotee of the Master, or, (B) escaping the River of Bondage to Maya and 'realising Knowledge'. Prem Rawat was forever railing against ANY form of premie initiative that involved those premies thinking for themselves (rather than practising strict obedience + satsang, service and meditation), to the extent of banning books from ashrams. And I don't for one minute think it far-fetched to make a causal link between the devotional intensity of that period and the number of premie suicides which happened at that time. (There is some useful background reading here on J-M's 'Best of Forum' page). Have you really forgotten all that? - or don't you think it matters? I concur with Livia here, that your post is both pompous and patronising - not to mention unthinking.. (If you want to celebrate the mind, then at least do it properly - ie. try using it)

Subject: Re: Why do these guys sound like robots? From: Blondie (must get me roots done) To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, May 16, 2002 at 16:10:18 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I am sorry to disagree, but this guy is not a robot - he's a fucking smug little git (big gits are nicer people). So I'm begining to get the idea why sometimes people get angry here. Did I miss something ? were all of us that sneary about other people's experiences ? Perhaps Rowat is tailoring his 'gift' for those most in need of it - slimy shits like the one you quote. Yeughck !!!

Subject: robots' revenge From: Livia To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, May 16, 2002 at 14:56:17 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: To be quite honest that stuff written by 'Andrew' makes me feel quite queasy. How arrogant, how pompous, how patronising. Those premies just love that one, don't they - 'she didn't get it' - the implication being: how could she/they have 'got it' and then walked? God, if only Maharaji had said 'Don't worry, be happy.' I used to long for him to say something like 'don't bother about your mind - in fact don't even call it mind, call it thoughts. Anyway, don't bother about them, just keep returning to that beautiful experience within and live from and within that.' But no. What Maharaji really used to say was things like this: 'What mind does is, it comes around; and slowly, slowly, slowly, very gradually, it takes its position. You see? It comes along and says, 'Jai Satchitanand, Premie Ji! Isn't everything beautiful?' I mean, that is something you want to hear. So when mind says, 'Knowledge is beautiful', you don't deny it. You say, 'Right!' And you let it in. Boom ! It's penetrated. It's inside of you. It's there. And you didn't even know it, it came so smooth ! Because, you see, it's a Professional. It is his job, his duty, to keep a man always confused - from one thing to another thing, to another thing, to another thing. This is why this world stands where it stands now. I mean, look at the situation of this world. Where it stands is because of its mind. The mind is crazy.' (July, 1975 - Caracas) And here's another one: 'Q: Does evil come from our mind ? Answer: Right! Exactly. Do you know, the evil is the son of man that comes to mind, through mind, from mind!' Or this one: 'This is how our mind is. If we are talking to our minds all the times, if we are imagining our mind all the time, if we're trying to think of our mind all the time, if we are not going to ignore it, the mind will think : 'Oh, so you care about me. So you're going to get it. If you think I am there, I’d better be there ! I'll show my face to you !' And then it'll be there all the time. But what you can do is completely ignore it...' Andrew said: 'One has to follow one's heart and not blindly mimick some devotional practive heard about from someone else. It should have been a relief for Livia when her teacher advised that she cease such futile observances. Why wasn't it?' Well, of course it was! But, er, it was Maharaji who suggested it in the first place. But one has to suppose that all these lofty people at LG or wherever either didn't have Knowledge back then, or didn't take any notice of anything Maharaji said back then, or were these naturally enlightened beings who, er, heard what they wanted to hear rather than what Maharaji actually said. And then tell us we were daft because we tried to listen to what he was actually saying. And then tell us we never had the experience anyway. For God's sake, the best experience I had was when I tried to forget what Maharaji said, or was telling us he wanted us to do, like surrender and move into the ashram, or 'stop chit-chatting' or 'ignore that crazy world' or forget about relationships because they were a 'product of mind'. If I managed to forget all that, and just enjoy the meditation, then yes, I would have the most beautiful experience and feel the most incredible bliss and love. As I'm beginning to find now, free of any association with Maharaji and his ever changing likes, dislikes, prejudices and whims. And what a blessed relief it is. Oh yes, the meditation works alright, it's just him telling you when or how much you could do it, or whether you could talk about it with each other or anyone else, or not talk about it with each other or anyone else, that caused all the confusion and turned something that could have been so simple all along into a trap. And that's what those premies over on LG simply fail to see. Love, Livia

Subject: Brilliant post but 1 slight correction From: hamzen To: Livia Date Posted: Thurs, May 16, 2002 at 23:18:07 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: or were these naturally enlightened beings who, er, heard what they wanted to hear rather than what Maharaji actually said. I practiced a variation on that theme. Before k I knew how important self acceptance and relaxation was to having 'that experience', one of the biggest things I learnt from acid. When I came to k my focus was nigh on totally on the meditation. When I saw him I was nigh on always in 'holy name' and trusted that I would hear the part that was relevant for me, unconsciously at the beginning I was also aware that if you followed everything he said you would just be confused. That was the way I thought satsang was supposed to work, how the magic penetrated, and how he could communicate with all the different personality types. By the time he tried to stop people doing that, I'd already made my decision and there was no going back, I was having too much of a gorgeous time. But it left me completely puzzled as to why he was trying to stop people practicing that way, so the lila concept kicked in bigtime.

Subject: the art of blanking out From: Livia To: hamzen Date Posted: Fri, May 17, 2002 at 05:16:56 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Spot on, Pat. That's just it - the only way to have a beautiful experience was to blank out or ignore a lot of what Maharaji was saying. Which resulted in you wishing he wasn't saying it, and wondering why he was saying it. But then you'd just ignore that too and go on your own sweet way, having a great time. This would all be fine until a time like 1977, when he suddenly appeared to get really cross, told us we were doing it all wrong, and were all 'in our minds' and started banging on about total surrender. This caused quite a darkening in the premie scene, if I remember rightly. I was living in a lovely premie house at the time; we were all doing service, loads of meditation and having satsang most nights. Everyone was happy and feeling a lot of love. Then the shutters seemed to come down. The house became an ashram and some weird women moved into my room - it was horrible! Most of the premies in the house became all rigid - it was real heartsink time. After a while of this I couldn't stand it and left. Some of the premies in that house told me I was 'in my mind' for leaving, and that I was 'leaving Maharaji's shelter' and they pulled out all the stops to try to prevent me from going. I moved in with a premie family for a while who were delightful and very loving. You had to really hold on to your instinct that Knowledge was about love in those days, because the more people obeyed Maharaji's agya, the less loving and spontaneous they became. I've read here that the reason Maharaji changed things in 1977 was because he was concerned at the drying up of donations - hence the renewed agya to 'surrender'. But propagation was at an all time high before that because premies were having such a good time! There was 6 years of that until he finally closed the ashrams down again in 1983 apparently because the cost of funding premies' pensions would have been too high. None of us had an inkling of this at the time of course. So, yes, the 'gorgeous' time you had was generally spoilt if you listened too closely to the words of the master! At the Atlanta training thing he even tries to tell premies how they should and shouldn't talk about Knowledge and talks about the premie who learns every video by heart so he can always suggest the perfect video for each question. No wonder aspirant numbers are at an all-time low. Love, Livia

Subject: Re: the art of blanking out From: Thorin To: Livia Date Posted: Fri, May 17, 2002 at 06:31:53 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It's funny you know, in many ways I am glad that Maharaji actually went through all the dysfunction that he displayed. Had it not been for this we may still have been completely hooked into the cult for many more decades than we were. Consider the opposite scenario. What if Maharaji had never presented himself as LOTU and simply did present the meditation techniques as that - meditation techniques that allowed practitioners to become calm, feel love, experience their essence, get blissed out, whatever. What if this had really taken off and led to the picture you paint. The picture of premies just getting together, feeling love for each other, feeling love for all humans in a simple and non patronising manner. Perhaps structuring their lives in the way we did (service, satsang and meditation) but simply in a plain, non-confrontational loving manner. For many, of course, this did happen. And… having a true teacher that did not seek self-aggrandisement, did not seek extreme wealth and practised what he spoke about. Practised in a consistent, simple and loving manner. Really taught his followers (yes in this scenario he would still have followers) how to really lead a simple, self-fulfilling life. A lifestyle that did not sneer and look down at people's endeavours and cultures. Having a teacher that truly showed practitioners how to become self-reliant through the meditation, to have the courage of their innate understandings, to understand their self-doubt and work through this. What if a structure had been developed that was non-hierarchical, that had no secrets, was truly based on meritocracy. A system that allowed fully for a proper debate and understanding of the relevant issues. A caring community. Yes, yes - far fetched I know and likely to have been considered pretty alternative and 'new age' from the mainstream view, but still, a community that would have evolved and grown in a positive manner that did not have any 'holy cows', that was not dogmatic - just a simple expression of self. For some this would have been an expression of God, for some an expression of self - but the main point it would have been without definition. So what if? In this naïve scenario I could easily imagine I would have stuck around for plenty more years. Perhaps, for some, this was what we had hoped for but we naively did not understand that having a teacher that was so bereft of morals, scruples and ethics would lead to extreme forms of negativity and entropy that we witness now. How could we have known? Put in place, for our apparent benefit, was the x-rated system, the inner secrets which are only over the last few years coming out and I dare say much more will spill out in the future. It is only with the kindness and bravery of many that has allowed the many more to see through the illusion that evolved around us and make the break earlier than we might have. Strange, but I know to be true, is that for many ordinary premies this idyllic but naïve scenario is a scenario that they are waiting for, very patiently, waiting, waiting …. For most former 'waiters' this idealised scenario has become true, where without the shackles of a false belief system they are able to fully explore their true potential. Where the road ahead is wide, open and very welcoming. Bests, Thorin

Subject: Do you remember m saying From: Jethro To: Thorin Date Posted: Sat, May 18, 2002 at 04:23:27 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: that the day will copme when all the premies will be in total rememberance of the holy name and at every gathering He will come and we will come and not a word will be spoken.

Subject: Re: Do you remember m saying From: Thorin To: Jethro Date Posted: Sat, May 18, 2002 at 04:33:37 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: No I don't specifically remember that bullshit. However I think he probably meant that we would all be realised souls and could dispense with the teacher (yeah well I was always a wishful thinker! :)) This teacher-student guru-devotee dynamic is deeply flawed and something we should dispense with as soon as possible. It creates a co-dependancy that is ultimately non-fulfulling and dangerous. The release of these shackles is where true freedom lies. Warmly, Thorin

Subject: Great point, Thorin From: Jim To: Thorin Date Posted: Fri, May 17, 2002 at 12:30:50 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: So true! Maharaji did us all a great favour with that early naive approach to being a cult leader. I mean, did you notice those Peace Bomb excerpts above? Maharaji comes right out and says that, while the world might laugh at the idea of him ruling the world one day, his premies knew it was just a matter of time! I've asked the premies on LG about this but so far only one guy's replied and he just says it was all before his time and he's glad things changed. OoookaaaaayyyyYYYYYYYY.....

Subject: Bloody brilliant, Livia. Thanks [nt] From: PatC To: Livia Date Posted: Thurs, May 16, 2002 at 16:44:27 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: The Attack of the Clones From: PatC To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, May 16, 2002 at 13:15:28 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: This Divine Clone said: ''(Livia) answered her own question in her following paragraph where she states; 'I received Knowledge in 1972 and had spent over a decade attempting to control my mind for the best part of each day by the practise of this technique.' I'd say that is why he changed it! Because some people treated it as some kind of a religious ritual to be strictly observed at all costs - rather than the most natural thing to relax into and enjoy. 'Attempting to control my mind?' That is a ludicrous idea!'' So yes, Rev Rawat did revise the tech from being one of religious mind-control to ''Remember to Breathe.'' BUT he did that after more than ten years of premies struggling to do what he told us to do, ''Kill the wicked witch of logic. Destroy the mind!'' Of course he never meant that. We were all supposed to read his mind and realize that he simply meant, ''Don't worry. Be happy!'' Yeah, right. The only reason that premies needed a teacher for 30 years is because he is such a piss poor teacher and a dirty lying revisionist to boot.

Subject: Check out Deb's reply From: Jim To: PatC Date Posted: Thurs, May 16, 2002 at 13:21:02 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Deborah, who bless her heart is in somewhat of a, shall we say, 'reactive' mode, agreed: I read that post and thought the same thing. The 'edit thoughts' misinterpretation was the problem that a lot of premies had. The truth could not have been simpler than that. I mentioned a while ago that some premies would actually use expresssions like, 'you're in your mind' as a rebuttal or slander to another premie rather than come out and say 'you're a dick head' or something. That religious austerity was also being challenged by Maharaji and premies who deleivered inspiring satsangs. One of my favorite M satsangs was in Miami when he gave a whole discourse about DESIRE. He kept saying desire is desire is desire. Not only that, he busted the fallacy that desire was inherently wrong with his comment that desire meant coming from the father. In other words, inspiration in and of itself is divine. It is the misinterpretation of the mind with its concepts that demonizes it. Hence the mind as demon. But being clear was obtainable by practicing knowledge. First Satsang helped weed out the bizarre ideas, meditation allowed an intelligable understanding and service showed you that you can experience a wonderful experience in the everyday tasks of life. Service was meditation in motion. You have no idea how service helped me benefit through life. I carried the same incentive, attitude and expectation as I had doing service directly or indirectly for Maharaji towards others. The physical experience, the rewards and the benefit it brought others was continually proven value. It was the mind/imagination or limited ability to interpret the spiritual poetic significance of satsang that caused many premies to get strange ideas about M and K. But what is staggering to me, is how many of the exes actually after 3 decades still argue that misinterpretations were misrepresentations. I agree that M is culpable to a host of allegations, but the shit I read coming out of some of those posts is so embarrassing. Many of those people are highly unrelatable. Nobody I associated with would come out with some of those comments. And you are right, Livia did answer her own question. Strange question for someone who stuck around M and K for nearly thirty years. This is why I said that I never had a bad experience as a premie and that I always cherished my adventure into premiedom even after I drifted away. I alsways had gratitude for Maharaji and Knowledge . My very post was over two years ago, I came to the forum and said I was looking for M and K. I mentioned that I only had fond memories. Guess who responded to that thread and challenged me. yea you got it. Well I thought he was an asshole to question it. Fuck, I should have followed my first instincts. cheers, deborah, who is happy not to hav to deal with that crap anymore

Subject: Back to the Future or is it The Twilight Zone? [nt] From: PatC To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, May 16, 2002 at 13:24:37 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: I can't read her crap anymore.... From: Cynthia To: PatC Date Posted: Thurs, May 16, 2002 at 13:48:00 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Especially irritating is how she continues to emulate Anth's signature style... The rest of the crap she writes is strange or deranged. It is like the Twilight Zone...Deborah's now the expert on Maharaji and Knowledge and we're the cult. Ah, to have such intelligence and understanding.....:D

Subject: Deb, you CAN split those pills in half.(nt) From: Inside Edition To: Cynthia Date Posted: Fri, May 17, 2002 at 04:22:01 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: :) [nt] From: Jim To: Inside Edition Date Posted: Fri, May 17, 2002 at 12:26:31 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: :) [nt] From: Jim To: Inside Edition Date Posted: Fri, May 17, 2002 at 12:26:10 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: I can't read her crap anymore.... From: Jim To: Cynthia Date Posted: Thurs, May 16, 2002 at 15:32:11 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Ah, to have such intelligence and understanding ... It's the tools, Cynth. You need the right intellectual tools ....

Subject: Richard, J-M, JHB re Leaders mag From: PatC To: All Date Posted: Thurs, May 16, 2002 at 12:24:57 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I now have all the pdf files for the Leaders article. Have any of you started transcribing it to a text file yet? If not, I will start typing it out. The pdf files could also be uploaded to EPO but not everyone has Acrobat Reader to view pdf files. So, I still think it's a good idea to put them in text format. The pics can be printed using Screendump. As soon as I have time I'll put the pic from the last page on-line on Chuck's Maharaji Watch website (unless Richard beats me to it.) It's a doozy. Rawat looks more like Richard Nixon everyday - the fake cheesy used-car salesman grin.

Subject: Re: Richard, J-M, JHB re Leaders mag From: Jean-Michel To: PatC Date Posted: Fri, May 17, 2002 at 09:17:38 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'd be glad you extract all the text. I guess I could do it too, but I'm quite busy these days .....

Subject: Is it worth it, J-M? From: PatC To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Fri, May 17, 2002 at 12:45:35 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'll do it but Jim and Richard seem to think it is boring.

Subject: Worth showing its emptyness From: Jean-Michel To: PatC Date Posted: Sat, May 18, 2002 at 00:20:18 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I must admit I've been very much interested in reading the stuff, maybe still wondering if Rawat had become able to tell something interesting at least ! Not the case ! Still empty and shallow.

Subject: No, it's completely worth it! From: Jim To: PatC Date Posted: Fri, May 17, 2002 at 12:50:10 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Pat, It's boring but it's important. It's also importantly boring.

Subject: OK, as long as you promise not to nag me [nt] From: PatC To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, May 17, 2002 at 12:51:24 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: Leaders From: Richard To: PatC Date Posted: Thurs, May 16, 2002 at 14:42:40 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: No data input happening on this end. I have to admit, I read the entire 'interview' and can't recall anything about it.

Subject: Re: Richard, J-M, JHB re Leaders mag From: Jim To: PatC Date Posted: Thurs, May 16, 2002 at 12:31:40 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Pat, I already have the first half the article in text form as my friend, Lee, figured out how to cancel their anti-select control. So that covers the previewed part of the article. I've already posted it wholesale here but can re-send it to anyone if they like (once I get use of my email back). I also have Richard's scanned versions of the remaining pages which are not susceptible to text selection. They read like a Kleenex ad but just not as weighty. If you're going to transcribe those, you might want some coffee.

Subject: Leaders From: PatC To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, May 16, 2002 at 12:43:15 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I understand that your pal, Lee, is now drinking Ham under the table in Blighty so we can't get him to ''deselect'' the pdf files. Pity. I read them all in a few minute this morning. Nothing too interesting except I liked the last Q and A: Finally, what is your own personal measure of success? Rawat answers: If I can keep satisfying my passion, that is success for me.

Subject: Flame Warriors From: Will To: All Date Posted: Thurs, May 16, 2002 at 07:09:12 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Find yourself here: http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame1.html Flame Warriors www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame1.html

Subject: They got me too From: Blissful Premie To: Will Date Posted: Thurs, May 16, 2002 at 13:10:42 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame24.html Blissful Premie www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame24.html

Subject: Re: They got me too From: cq To: Blissful Premie Date Posted: Fri, May 17, 2002 at 09:02:25 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: (great site you've found Will). A Swarm hive is almost impossible to detect. When a hapless victim stumbles on a forum that houses a Swarm and disturbs it with a message that runs counter to its prevailing ideology, the Swarm will erupt without warning. Taken one at a time the irrelevant, often mindless attacks by individuals in a Swarm can be crushed or easily brushed aside, but because of the sheer volume of the assault even the strongest Warriors must yield. WARNING: Only those who are highly skilled in Swarm management techniques should attempt to wade into a Swarm hive. Protective clothing will not prevent a Warrior from getting a few stings. Is this Life's Great? or is it the Forum? www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame69.html www.winternet.com/~mikelr/assets/Swarm.jpg

Subject: I actually LOLed. Great site! From: Carl To: Will Date Posted: Thurs, May 16, 2002 at 10:11:30 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Now we have a new lexicon, a new jargon of identifying characteristics, wonderfully illustrated no less. Mike Reed has a wild, vital and free drawing line, and his color sense is lively. So funny to envision some of the regulars on the various m-related forums with the illustrations. The artist captured and caricatured whole psychologies in a few deft strokes and in the short captions. Brilliant, I say!

Subject: Fantastic forum archetypes From: Richard To: Will Date Posted: Thurs, May 16, 2002 at 08:06:27 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Really funny and quite accurate depiction of the characters we love/hate to hate/love. So far, I've determined that I'm a Diplomat with Weenie rising. ;)

Subject: Re: Flame Warriors From: Sir Dave To: Will Date Posted: Thurs, May 16, 2002 at 07:35:12 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: That's one of the best sites I've seen for a while. I think I'll link to it. I know who I am - who are you? .. Dave

Subject: Why did you block me from AG? From: Jim To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Thurs, May 16, 2002 at 09:24:54 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dave, Why did you block me from AG?

Subject: The reason why you and PatC are blocked From: Sir Dave To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, May 16, 2002 at 13:28:57 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I blocked you and PatC for the sake of the other forum participants. I am the admin and had received numerous complaints from regular AGers about you and PatC. This had been over a period of some time. Jim and PatC, you have often written how you think that The ANYTHING GOES forum is irrelevant and ''off the map'' etc. How it is frequented by lunatics and mentally ill people, so I would have thought that your being blocked from the place was no great loss to you.

Subject: Tortured Free Speech From: Scott T. To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Fri, May 17, 2002 at 09:22:11 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dave: Actually, I considered what you said about the ex movement to be pretty much a non-issue. I'd argue that it's more likely to be a lull in the movement, rather than the end, but what the heck. However for anyone who loves irony blocking Jim and Pat just presents the prospect of volumes of delicious material. What do I think of the 'free speech' arguments? Well I think they ought to be banned, of course. :-) --Scott

Subject: Re: The reason why you and PatC are blocked From: Scott T. To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Fri, May 17, 2002 at 09:05:58 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dave: Guess you'll have to change the name of the Forum. --Scott

Subject: Well David, you always have these... From: Cynthia To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Thurs, May 16, 2002 at 14:01:34 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You can have 'em. The Hydra Cybersisters www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame4.html

Subject: More like some-one with MPD on a bad day?(nt) From: Catweasel To: Cynthia Date Posted: Thurs, May 16, 2002 at 19:48:40 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ry

Subject: Re: More like some-one with MPD on a bad day? From: Cynthia To: Catweasel Date Posted: Fri, May 17, 2002 at 04:26:09 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Don't you think you've exploited the MPD thing enough? There isn't anything you can say that bothers me about your comments but take them elsewhere, please. This is our lounge and your messing it up--you see we don't have litter boxes here and your urine is stinking the place up. Why don't you ask your new girlfriends about their diagnostic labels. I referred to mental illnesses on AG/LG/Symposium only once to one individual. Once. That person hit me and ran. For someone who has such a lofty position as a 'student' of the Lord of the Universe, you certainly are not nice, but I forgot--neither is he! LOL! And no, that picture doesn't depict what MPD is like on a bad day or any other day. You haven't a clue--that's what makes you such a joke.

Subject: So, it's okay for the Friends of Sir Dave Club From: PatC To: Catweasel Date Posted: Thurs, May 16, 2002 at 20:47:20 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ...........to use mental illness to insult people. Yes, it is just like that thread on AG poking fun at MPD.

Subject: The Ultimate Hypocrisy!Dave! From: Catweasel To: PatC Date Posted: Fri, May 17, 2002 at 00:50:06 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I actually didn't believe that when I first read it. Are you really so silly? Oh I see, it's OK to socially denigrate at least 30 people BUT we must never mention mental illnesss? Oh Pat you can be SUCH a hypocrite.Do you see what you are saying? Dont tell me , there is the Good mental illness and the Bad mental illness? Tell me Pat which one might you be?

Subject: Re: The reason why you and PatC are blocked From: Jim To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Thurs, May 16, 2002 at 13:53:54 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dave, You're pathetic is really all I'm thinking now. But then you're the guy who decided that there's no point continuing to discuss Maharaji online anymore and that only us 'church ladies' are still into it. I take it then that this is the last we'll have the pleasure, right? Good.

Subject: No it isn't From: Sir Dave To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, May 16, 2002 at 14:08:11 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Unless I am blocked from here and Gerry asks me to stop posting here, I will post here if I have something to say. You take one little observational joke comment I made about ''Church Ladies'' and blow it up out of all proportion. I find that absurd.

Subject: I swear allegence to King Gerry From: Sir Dave To: WarlorDoc Date Posted: Fri, May 17, 2002 at 04:26:33 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: until he gets toppled from the top dog spot. Who will it be next though? King Patsy or King Jim? Hmmm...

Subject: This is how you get in trouble, Dave From: Jim To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Fri, May 17, 2002 at 08:23:53 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: There you go again, eh? Saying something that really doesn't make any sense, can't be defended and for which, if you had to give an explanation, all you could say would be you 'were only kidding'. I mean, what kind of stupid comment is that anyway, huh? Gerry's the host of this forum. Big deal. He pays for it, hopefully breaks even with whatever donations he gets, does the odd bit of administrative stuff it takes to keep a forum going and, once in a blue moon, exercises his perogative (as he did in your thread above, apparently) to block someone or stop a thread. Like I said, big deal. Pat? Pat's the other guy who admin's the forum with Gerry. He's got even less to do, I guess. Oh yeah, I forgot archiving. They archive (that is, unless JHB's been doing it these days). And, oh yeah, let's not forget JHB, who, I take it, must be Emperor JHB, right? Why, he's the current 'owner', I guess, of EPO. Does all the work he does and, like Gerry, hopefully breaks even with whatever money's donated. Emperor JHB gets to maintain EPO and exercise his own discretion to add or change what he wants and you just KNOW how wild a sword to yield that is! Why, he even gets to decide when to archive and when to add new Journey entries, not to mention White Page ones! You know what they say about power .... ABSOLUTE power, Dave. Scary, isn't it? And we exes without even a Constitution or Charter of Rights and Freedoms to protect us?! But then -- how can I forget? -- there's Jean-Michel! Well, if John's the emperor, JM must be ... the pope? I don't know. How do you even begin to describe the power of the person who -- get this -- on his own decides what posts to memorialize as 'bests' or which articles and what not people send him to include in the background sections of EPO? It's scary even contemplating JM's power and I think the less said about it here, the better. Me? I'm just another poster like you. What power do you fancy either Pat -- who, admittedly already wields a fantastic amount -- or I, longtime, chronic poster that I am, aspire to? Or is this going to be just another 'joke' which rigid people like me take too seriously?

Subject: Imaginary powers and paranoia From: PatC To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, May 17, 2002 at 10:53:16 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You said: ''Pat? Pat's the other guy who admin's the forum with Gerry. He's got even less to do, I guess. ''Oh yeah, I forgot archiving. They archive (that is, unless JHB's been doing it these days). ''And, oh yeah, let's not forget JHB, who, I take it, must be Emperor JHB, right? Why, he's the current 'owner', I guess, of EPO. Does all the work he does and, like Gerry, hopefully breaks even with whatever money's donated.'' If anyone actually really observes what's going on here, they will see that Gerry is the laziest FA ever and hardly ever does anything. I on the other hand am constantly deleting posts and blocking people (well according to certain premies and their ex pals whom I am not allowed to call paranoid because that's not PC.) I mean haven't you noticed how the forum just seems to shrink overnight and you come back the next day and half the posts have been deleted? Jokes aside, archiving is done on EPO and that, as you point out, is JHB's bailiwick. Gerry and I have nothing to do with EPO or archiving. Although, unbeknownst to John, I have started storing all my other documents on EPO as I ran out of space on my hard-drive. Okay, seriously, no one breaks even. All of us are out of pocket of hundreds of dollars and John by more. I won't say how much but he does need donations. The only other power that I wield is that I read and type fast and have a stentorian voice and a good vocabulary and tell it like I see it. Oh, the other power that I have is that I know when I've made mistakes and quickly apologise so that stuff does not get blown out of proportion like this storm in a teacup.

Subject: Well then you should apologize immediately From: Jim To: PatC Date Posted: Fri, May 17, 2002 at 11:03:17 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Oh, the other power that I have is that I know when I've made mistakes and quickly apologise so that stuff does not get blown out of proportion like this storm in a teacup. Please, Pat, won't you apologize without any further delay so we can finally put this behind us? Apologize for what? I don't know. Being a 'church lady' or rigid or something. :)

Subject: Okay, I'm sorry, Jim From: PatC To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, May 17, 2002 at 11:06:27 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'm sorry that I have such a loud voice - sometimes - but it always gets me a cab quickly on a rainy night.

Subject: Re: This is how you get in trouble, Dave From: Sir Dave To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, May 17, 2002 at 10:07:41 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I was answering a post by David Roupell. He asked me why I said I'd stop posting here if Gerry asked me to or blocked me.

Subject: So? [nt] From: Jim To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Fri, May 17, 2002 at 10:16:20 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Revisionism or plain old lies, Dave? From: PatC To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Thurs, May 16, 2002 at 14:27:50 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Remember only a few days ago how you refused to block even Djuro? When pressed you pretended to not be able to block him. When told that was wrong by me, you did another backflip. You're a hypocrite, dear knight. And, no, I don't mind being blocked. I never read there anyway until your fan club started libelling me WHILE it was still linked to from here. Since it is no longer linked I don't give a damn what your experiments say.

Subject: Just to get this absolutely straight From: Sir Dave To: PatC Date Posted: Thurs, May 16, 2002 at 18:07:03 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You know full well that I said I'd figured out how to get the IP address in the end. Anyway PatC, I did mean that you and Jim were the church ladies of Forum 7. Just to get that absolutely straight. I wasn't refering to anyone else. If you can't take a tiny, mild insult like that, what with the sort of disgusting insults you have laid on other people, branding them mentally ill and describing them as cheap whores - well if you can't take my tiny insult... well words fail me...

Subject: Yeah, right From: Jim To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Thurs, May 16, 2002 at 20:31:42 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dave, You didn't just refer to us as 'church ladies'. You basically laughed off everything we do here as some sort of OCD symptom or something. Dave, face it, man, you've always been too good for us. Whereas we were ex-premies you were something better, a cut above somehow. Now you're able to tell us we take all thus stuff too seriously. But then that's probably just a joke anyway, right? As you said, the people who wanted out have left and ... What is left? Some church ladies on both sides arguing amongst themselves. The war is over. Now there is just some pockets of resistence here and there, some hand to hand fighting and snipers. Most of the army are back in their barracks or home on extended leave, maybe never to be recalled. Now the ex-premies have been divided by certain hard-line factions, there is even less need to enter into the fray. There is no unity of exes any more and like the Roman Empire, it has shrunk into a small faction of holy church ladies with ever more fervor and ferocousness, yet without the urgency of the original ex-premie movement. The war against Maha is over. Long live peace. As we said in the sixties, ''Just do your own thing, man.'' Why are you still here is what I'm trying to figure out. Just to make fun of us?

Subject: You have a selective memory From: PatC To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Thurs, May 16, 2002 at 19:27:07 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I suppose you forgot about the disgusting fake guessing game about my sexual practices (more gross than anything that has been said to me on the net by anybody) or your well-timed Pat's Ass thread or the lies about my business? I said that people who said those sort of things are mentally sick and I stand by that. I called no-one a cheap whore. I called her a trailer-trash femme fatale has-been. Big difference. You're the only one who used the word whore. I wonder why? BTW I agree with your new post on AG. AG is not an expremie forum. I've got no problem with that and don't intend to protest your hypocritical about-face from ''Anything Goes'' to ''Anything Goes as long as the insults only fly one way - from you and your fan-club to anyone else who wanders into your irrelevant backwater.'' My objection is not to your silly little club but that you thought it was relevant enough to request a link from ex forums. PS Cease and desist from using the phrase ''church-ladies.'' I copyrighted it when I first introduced it to the ex-forums.

Subject: Let's consult Deb on the law about that From: Jim To: PatC Date Posted: Thurs, May 16, 2002 at 20:35:17 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: PS Cease and desist from using the phrase ''church-ladies.'' I copyrighted it when I first introduced it to the ex-forums. I'm not sure but that just might be defamtion. :)

Subject: Re: Let's consult Deb on the law about that From: PatC To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, May 16, 2002 at 20:44:37 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Or ''brute force.'' You know like the brute force that certain people are using on all the forums against her.

Subject: Re: Let's consult Deb on the law about that From: Cynthia To: PatC Date Posted: Fri, May 17, 2002 at 04:30:26 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Or slander versus libel. ''Slander is verbal, libel is in written form.'' Okeey....

Subject: Did she say that? From: Jim To: Cynthia Date Posted: Fri, May 17, 2002 at 09:01:02 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Actually, she's right about that, if she did, although 'libel' is also used as a synonym for defamation more generally. But her other comments about defamation were entirely wrong. What was so fantastically weird, though, was her wild, happy chicken dance mocking me when she first thought I'd misspelled the word. She was wrong but when I showed her, all she could do was start hopping on the other foot, this time laughing about my saying that one could defame someone even with a fleeting publication and even if the publication was mistaken. She went completely gaga with joy over that one. Only problem was that she was entirely wrong again. Yet, again, when I showed her the facts she couldn't say anything but didn't miss a beat, kept on laughing only now about something else altogether. Sad, really.

Subject: Because.... From: Cynthia To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, May 16, 2002 at 10:41:43 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jim, You don't have a vagina. Cynth

Subject: Sir Dave declares war on the dragons From: PatC To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, May 16, 2002 at 10:22:39 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: This is the reason. Sir Dave posted this on AG: ''Jim and PatC have not been popular here, to put it mildly and so I've blocked them. Of course, they can easily get round it by using another ISP but if they post here, I'll delete their posts and block that ISP too. I am not going to allow this forum to become a staging post to attack other people on it and spew bile. It might be interesting to watch for a day or so but people get hurt and I don't want to be a party to that.'' The denizens of AG are now free to be as anti-semitic and homophobic as they wish without any annoying protests from us. Don't worry, Sir Dave, I won't be circumventing your blockade. I have no interest in AG. I merely went there to protest against the smear job being done on me first by Deb, then Salam and Selene who were spreading idiotic lies about my business. Now that AG is no longer linked to any sane forum, I do not need to defend myself. It is a backwater. I hope you enjoy your crude Pat's Ass jokes. You are welcome to the members of your fan club. They are not the sort of company I wish to keep.

Subject: Does Dave say what he means?... From: Chuck S. To: PatC Date Posted: Thurs, May 16, 2002 at 12:54:04 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Of course I've been blocked, too, because I share Pat's IP number. Sir Dave says about his forum: "I am not going to allow this forum to become a staging post to attack other people on it and spew bile. It might be interesting to watch for a day or so but people get hurt and I don't want to be a party to that." The only reason Pat and I posted there was because of the smear job they were doing, and when they began to malign our business with out and out lies, I also went there to protest. That led to a disgusting frenzy of fag-bashing. It would seem that Sir Dave doesn't have a problem with "allowing his forum to be become a staging post to attack other people on it and spew bile" when it's his Fan Club that is doing the spewing. God forbid that any of us being maligned should take offense. After all, it's all about humor, eh? The people who made CAC probably thought their lies were funny, too. Sir Dave seems to say often that what he says isn't what he meant. I think I prefer people to just say what they mean, and mean what they say. I don't want to say any more here, lest this thread be locked as a "fight" thread, but anyone who wishes to argue the details can do so on The Symposium Forum. Most of the AG crowd has access to it, the only people blocked from Symposium are Debra, who would not be civil and who has since resorted to threats, and Barry, a friend of Jim's who was never a premie, and kept posting porn, and Djuro, a spammer from Spain. Everyone else has access, but many of the AG regulars choose not to post on Symposium, because they feel that being held accountable for what they say is "abuse".

Subject: 'Anything Goes' ... Really? From: Moley To: Chuck S. Date Posted: Thurs, May 16, 2002 at 16:34:25 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Well some very unpleasant stuff seems to, doesn't it? You said Dave: I am not going to allow this forum to become a staging post to attack other people on it and spew bile. It might be interesting to watch for a day or so but people get hurt and I don't want to be a party to that. O.K. really? So how come you didn't ban the Cat or Cerise when they threatened and mocked Nige after he had just been knocked off his bike by two cars and was in a lot of pain? I seem to recall 'I hope it's a lorry next time' amongst the more memorable 'comments'. So now you're saying 'Anything Doesn't Go' are you?

Subject: I can explain it, Moley... From: Andrea Eriksonn To: Moley Date Posted: Thurs, May 16, 2002 at 19:09:00 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It's really VERY simple, my dear! Sir Dave recently said on his Forum: "This is no longer an uncensored forum. After some thought I realised that the ''free speech'' forum had ended up as just a place for people to attack others and reasonable posters were pushed away. The poll I ran also showed that the majority opinion was for a moderated forum." You see, Jim and Pat were blocked because they were unreasonable, and pushing away reasonable people like Salam, Selene, Stoner and Cerise (DEAR Cerise!), and countless (often literally nameless!) others, by asking them QUESTIONS about things they said. No one should be subjected to being asked questions they don't want to answer, because that is really abusive. This is one of the reasons Maharaji has banned questions from the World of Knowledge (except for Himself to ask of course, HE a can ask questions, because He has all the answers, and is the source of That Kindness). Questions coming from anyone other than The Master, regarding ANYTHING to do with Maharaji and Knowledge, are usually abusive by nature. They cause people to get hurt. So even though you are all ex-students, it is over Knowledge and Maharaji and His students that you are arguing about, so I believe that the "No Questions in the World of Knowledge" rule applies even in this case. As for your Nigel, I've noticed he has this rather unpleasant, unfortunate habit of asking these kinds of naughty, pesky questions. Therefore, it's really only natural that people would say hurtful things to him, and only right that the reasonable posters that Sir Dave is so gallantly defending, should not be questioned about this. I mean, after all, if Nigel hadn't been asking questions, he would not have been treated so cruely, so I hope you can understand that, really, to be fair, he brought it all on himself, didn't he? The reasonable posters should not be abused for that. Perhaps you could explain that to him? I also wish to state that I don't like Sir Dave. Not once, but twice, he asked me to show my boobies, which was very rude. I'm certian he's one of those premies who used to wear sari's in the 70's, an leer at Prem when He danced in His Halloween costume for us. I'm just mentioning that to remind you all that I dislike all of you naughty ex-students equally. I think that makes me an excellent impartial judge of this conflict. And as such, it's plain to see, that the people who've been asking questions are the ones who are wrong and abusing other people (except for Stoner. Her questions are OK, because she hates the right people, and we have great hopes that she will become an aspirant). You are all shockingly depraved, but hopefully some of you may come to your senses, before, you know, it's TOO LATE. Rememer, the door is allways open... (Unless you're Jim Heller or Joe Whalen, I think they are on the official sh*t list now). Yours in That Feeling, Andrea Eriksonn :), A Happy Student of The Master, and Fan of Catweasel

Subject: Aint my sis the most far out premie? From: Andy Daverdson To: Andrea Eriksonn Date Posted: Fri, May 17, 2002 at 22:34:12 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I mean like it is so far out that my sis, Andrea is just so totally clear,and can really lay down some heavy 'sang like that, aint it? I mean, for an old stonor like myself, I'm not REALLY in THAT place unless I've had some supercharged foot energy from the boss, tempered by a columbian doobie and fine cognac with 'the man', if you dig where I'm comin from... But my sis, Andrea, like she's so totally cool cos she can belt out some 'sang without even gettin high, cos she's always stoned in that devotion for our lord, er speaker... Life really is beautiful man....

Subject: Andy, you've gone too far... From: Andrea Eriksonn To: Andy Daverdson Date Posted: Sat, May 18, 2002 at 20:08:49 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'M TELLING MOM! ~) ~) ~) ~) ~) ~) ~) ~) ~) ~) ~)

Subject: Andrea,just bliss out and be cool, bitch... From: Andy Daverdson To: Andrea Eriksonn Date Posted: Sat, May 18, 2002 at 20:50:43 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yo, sis, I mean like lets chill and groove on that devotional thing, right? I mean like I'm just digging on how high I can really get off our lord...watching 'satguu has come' with fuzbee and those one foundation bro's with some of prem's best cognac, ya know? Nouri's got his stogies from Cuba and a load of buxom babes in tow and this party's just startin to rock...maybe we'll all sing 'rock me maharaji and roll me tonight' when it really gets goin.... It's a gas, but ya gotta let the right brain roll and groove on that devotional high ta really get it, know what I mean?(what I'm saying Andrea isthat I think you're a bit uptight) C'mon be cool, Andrea...let mom chill...we don't want her telling our brother anything negative about prem, do we? We don't need another article written about our wierd behaviour with the goo, ya know...

Subject: I OBJECT TO BLOCKING DJURO! From: Jim To: Chuck S. Date Posted: Thurs, May 16, 2002 at 12:59:20 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: How are you?

Subject: But you're just a Rebel without a clue From: PatC To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, May 16, 2002 at 13:05:55 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Rebel without a clue www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame75.html

Subject: Oh no you don't! From: Jim To: PatC Date Posted: Thurs, May 16, 2002 at 13:08:31 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I refuse to rebel against anything or nothing just because you say I should!

Subject: Re: Sir Dave declares war on the dragons From: Cynthia To: PatC Date Posted: Thurs, May 16, 2002 at 10:39:05 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Pat and Jim, I posted my opinion about this on Symposium. Selene has posted a ''parody'' about me on Peaches. It's about my response to her about my ability to go outdoors, driving into town, etc.... It's pretty sad when people lose their lives in an internet chat/sex-talk room discussing other people who they don't even really know. I wouldn't mind the parody if there was some real satirical quality to it.;) Love, Cynthia J. Gracie Pleasantville, Vermont:):):)

Subject: They're bored with F7 and can't be bothered From: PatC To: Cynthia Date Posted: Thurs, May 16, 2002 at 10:49:20 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: As Sir Dave and his fan club have declared they are ''bored with talking about the same old stuff over and over again'' here. I guess they find the newbie exes monotonous. How can one talk about oneslef all the time if the newbies keep grabbling all the attention. Anyway, now they have nothing to talk about except you, Jim and me. All I can say is good riddance. These were the screamers who kept at least three of us from joining the forum for a long time because every time I opened a post all I read is: ''I fucking hate that fucking sicko Rawat. Rawat sucks,'' etc Now we have a bunch of new and articulate exes having a civilised adult discussion. None of them ever really had anything of value to add to this discussion.

Subject: Yes, it's a relief... From: Cynthia To: PatC Date Posted: Thurs, May 16, 2002 at 10:56:06 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yes, the recent exes here have added a new depth to conversation. With civility and respect, too.

Subject: Bjorn From: Will To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Thurs, May 16, 2002 at 08:27:14 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Bjorn was 100% Palooka.

Subject: Palooka From: gerry To: Will Date Posted: Thurs, May 16, 2002 at 12:20:46 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Palooka will battle anyone, anytime, anywhere - he seems to love it, even though he always takes a beating. After a terrific pounding at the hands of, for example, Kung-Fu Master, he'll just struggle to his feet and wobble back into the ring. His astonishing ability to absorb punishment leads one to suspect that during his long Warrior career Palooka has taken a few too many punches. Often, as an act of mercy, Nanny will step in to stop the fight.' Palooka will battle anyone, anytime, anywhere - he seems to love it, even though he always takes a beating. After a terrific pounding at the hands of, for example, Kung-Fu Master, he'll just struggle to his feet and wobble back into the ring. His astonishing ability to absorb punishment leads one to suspect that during his long Warrior career Palooka has taken a few too many punches. Often, as an act of mercy, Nanny will step in to stop the fight. www.winternet.com/~mikelr/assets/Palooka2.jpg

Subject: Apology re emailing people (OT) From: Jim To: All Date Posted: Wed, May 15, 2002 at 18:30:13 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I owe several people email right now but some sort of computer glitch is stopping me from sending. I can still receive but send, no. My server's sending someone out tomorrow to do an on-site service call as I've had this problem before on and off and they want to get to the bottom of it too. 'Til then, keep emailing me and imagine my responses which are usually either yes, no, I don't know or maybe. :)

Subject: Email back up-- no one here helped -- at all From: Jim To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, May 16, 2002 at 17:25:15 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: :) Yes, I must say that all of your suggestions were completely useless. Hotmail, as we all know, is for teenagers. As for the tech, well, Cynth, I did not, at least not yet. Mind you, once Shaw reads your post they'll probably send me a bill. Thanks for giving them the idea. (Actually, I just when the guy was about to say something to me, I gave him his hat and coat and pretended to hear the phone ring so I couln't say goodbye properly). But, no thanks to any of you, the problem is now fixed and I now consider myself a complete techie, yes I am. Got any computer ... sorry, 'puter, issues? Send 'em to me. Jim ...Computer Technologist since 16/5/02

Subject: Re: Email back up-- no one here helped -- at all From: Thorin To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, May 17, 2002 at 04:30:00 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jim Computer Technologist since 16/5/02 So perhaps you can advise me then? Would you recommend that I: 1. Create new folders in Outlook Express such as 2000 inbox, 2000 Sent Items, 2001 Inbox, 2001 Outbox etc 2. Move emails from my inbox and sent box to relevant new folders and 3. Compact all folders I hear that most problems are caused by having a 'bloated' inbox, which by default is opened when Outlook Express opens. So, I understand purely on the basis of rumour you understand, that by moving old emails the 'bloated' feeling goes away. :) Also a little birdie once told me to forget Hotmail and Yahoo accounts and use a more up-to-date and thoroughly modern IMAP email system. Such as www.fastmail.fm which allows me, if I so choose, to be able to have ALL my emails (received and sent) to be stored on a central internet server. This way I can always access ALL my emails wherever I am on this planet and from any computer. Also I could, if I wanted to, download to my main computer any or all of my messages so I can do offline reading, editing and new messages - all completely transparently with the IMAP server. Someone mentioned that fastmail allows me to create lots of really net aliases, id's and personalities. Also fastmail has this neat feature of 'filtering out' unwanted emails - you know threats, spam and other maladjusted posters. Now that seems far cool. So, Jim what would you advise? :) Warmly, Thorin

Subject: So have you fixed your editing problem yet? From: PatC To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, May 16, 2002 at 18:02:21 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You: ''Hotmail, as we all know, is for teenagers.'' Teenagers are smart and very net savvy. They use hotmail so as not to get viruses.

Subject: Yes, I did -- again, no thanks to you From: Jim To: PatC Date Posted: Thurs, May 16, 2002 at 20:38:12 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Or WAS it thanks to you. It was thanks to someone. Can't remember. Someone here. Was it you? If it was you, Pat, thanks again. It's great being able to actually edit again. If it WASN'T you, yeah, I fixed it. So what? I sure didn't get any help from you, now did I? Sheesh!

Subject: But I did help you fix it From: PatC To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, May 16, 2002 at 20:51:52 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Okay, I'm lying. Who did? Now I'm going to watch Cher as God.

Subject: I figured you were . . . From: Richard To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, May 16, 2002 at 08:13:51 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: . . . too busy reading the second half of the Leaders puff piece or else you decided to do that vision quest after all. ;)

Subject: Vision Quest my ass! (TECH HELP ANYONE?) From: Jim To: Richard Date Posted: Thurs, May 16, 2002 at 11:34:49 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Very funny, Richard. No, I've got email problems. The tech guy was here -- and gone -- in a flash. He took one look at my bloated Outlook Express (thousands of messages, most of them threats -- just kidding) and said that was my problem. So now I'm trying to figure out how to compact all the old ones, save them somewhere and lighten the load. Problem is, the tech guy wouldn't touch it, gave me some fast advice and was out of here. Since then, I've been trying to find the right on-line help stuff from Microsoft but it's like storing and compacting email is there big, dark secret. Is there anyone out there who knows how this works? All I want to do is save all my old emails and get them the hell out of Outlook Express. Thanks

Subject: The old-fashioned way? From: PatC To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, May 16, 2002 at 12:38:35 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I can't help you tech-wise but perhaps someone here knows how to put your email into ZIP files. Simple suggestion - get a Hotmail account in the meantime and let us know your new address. Then save your emails as text files in Notepad and put them in a file labelled Threats. I'm gonna sit right down and write myself an email and make believe it came from you.

Subject: Hotmail From: PatC To: PatC Date Posted: Thurs, May 16, 2002 at 13:01:18 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You can even use a fake name and address. I've got a Hotmail account as the Thunderstealingbitch who lives in Peoria. I know how you love to hide behind anonymity and take digs at real people. Hotmail sign in lc2.law5.hotmail.passport.com/cgi-bin/login

Subject: Re: Hotmail - Yahoo's better From: JHB To: PatC Date Posted: Fri, May 17, 2002 at 11:59:29 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hotmail gets flooded with junk mail after a while, whereas Yahoo are absolutely fucking brilliant at stopping junk mail. Also, Hotmail has a mailbox limit of 2MB, Yahoo international is 4 MB, Yahoo UK is 6 MB. I currently have three Yahoo accounts and one Hotmail account. The Hotmail account is pretty much dormant but gets full every few weeks from junk mail, which I have to clear out. I also have a dormant Yahoo account which never gets junk mail. Both are easy to set up. John.

Subject: Re: Hotmail - Yahoo's better From: PatC To: JHB Date Posted: Fri, May 17, 2002 at 12:19:59 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I agree. To me it is important to keep at least one web-based email account to post publicly. Who the hell wants viruses coming to your business account? Also web mail is available to you on any computer anywhere.

Subject: Thousands?!? From: Cynthia To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, May 16, 2002 at 12:16:27 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jim, In the help file it tells you how to remove emails, but it's pretty vague. First you might want to sort your inbox and sent folders by date or name, then select which ones you want to save to a document or disk. Do you have folders for your all correspondence? Do you synchronize? Someone else better answer you...:) Good luck... On help in Outlook Express

Subject: Well, they're not ALL threats From: Jim To: Cynthia Date Posted: Thurs, May 16, 2002 at 12:22:56 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Cynth, I don't want to delete them. I want to save them. And I just want to do it by date, I think. That's the easiest way and I'll probably never need them anyway. Thanks for your advice about waiting for someone else's advice, though. I really owe you. Thanks again. :)

Subject: Re: Well, they're not ALL threats From: Cynthia To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, May 16, 2002 at 15:26:20 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jim, I'm a pretty good user of computers but not a techie. I bet they charged you for the service call, right? I was going to suggest a hotmail or yahoo account but Pat already did... If I can figure anything else out I'll let you know. Jim, thousands? I think you've got a lot of clerical work ahead of you. Sorry... Cynth

Subject: You don't call, you don't write...(nt) From: AJW To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, May 16, 2002 at 03:55:55 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ...I'm beginning to think you don't care any more...

Subject: I can't read that, Anth -- you said 'nt' [nt] From: Jim To: AJW Date Posted: Thurs, May 16, 2002 at 11:35:25 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: I've heard that one before:) From: Moley To: Jim Date Posted: Wed, May 15, 2002 at 21:18:16 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: No but seriously.... til your glitch is fixed I'll wile away the time imagining your responses ;) Moles

Subject: Don't mix this up with other excuses, please [nt] From: Jim To: Moley Date Posted: Wed, May 15, 2002 at 21:20:18 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: 2 exes, a ladder, and a pair of black stockings From: Moley To: Jim Date Posted: Wed, May 15, 2002 at 21:36:38 (PDT) Email Address: moley@redcrow.demon.co.uk Message: Just kiddin' around. My excuse - middle of the night...Spent the afternoon attempting to stop Loafie from falling off a ladder, whilst instructing him in the finer art of slip knots (for the black stockings - no, don't ask!) PS Loafie, if you're reading, mail me your phone no

Subject: No worries - just kidding around :) :) From: Moley To: Jim Date Posted: Wed, May 15, 2002 at 21:29:09 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Ignore last nt post From: Moley To: Moley Date Posted: Wed, May 15, 2002 at 21:39:00 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Server pissing about... didn't mean to post it! (it's 6 am here - brain malfunctioning)

Subject: hi ho, silver From: freedomrider To: All Date Posted: Wed, May 15, 2002 at 10:01:03 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi everyone, I cannot believe I would EVER EVER EVER leave this 'Knowledge' - such a dedicated true believer have I been for over 20 years. In fact, I could not have envisaged a fulfilled life at all without this constant focus (that's putting it very midly!). And I say 'Knowledge' rather than M, because that's why I came and that's why I stayed for so long, until having realised just how much i've been HYPNOTISED over the last five to six years by our master of illusion and deception. It took that long (fifteen years)to warm to the idea of doing 'service' and then I jumped right in and have been such a good little gopi. Never having really wanted a master, i found he somehow during this time became unshakeably entwined with my 'experience' (whatever the f.. that means now). I have been logging on to EPO for the last couple of months, when I can, having no regular access to a computer. I wanted to wait to post until I have purchased own computer, which is in train, however too impatient and just wanted to say THANKYOU and I will introduce myself more within the next few weeks hopefully. Thankyou to most everyone who posts here because without EPO I would still be in a confused state of conflicting thoughts and feelings. Still rather fearful of posting with my real name, lots of issues relating to many premmie friends and flak already received from starting to 'come out of the closet/cloister' to some premmies. There is such a dilemma for me re keeping my mouth shut, which I'm finding truly hard to do and having respect and kindness for premmie friends who are caught up as I was. I ask myself if i am being disrespectful, and indeed sometimes cruel, in questioning people's sometimes very very deeply held beliefs. I am finding this of particular concern with people who are not really committed practising premmies, but still seem to hold so so dear and close their utter trust in M's superhuman divine status. I give myself a really hard time for this sometimes and also can feel quite isolated as most of my friends seem pretty unshakeable in their beliefs and are most threatened by all the open 'traitors' (off with their heads, heigh ho, heigh ho) on EPO - the very worst crime - after all you just 'walk away', don't you (and yes, i've read some great posts debunking that particular myth - but not so easy to challenge those with head still in sand). I've only just resigned from doing service here in my hometown - not brave enough to say clearly to them the real reasons (although rumours abound, I am sure). Is this not just one of many hallmarks of a cult, or what? The paranoia! What a journey this is turning out to be - mindblowing and wonderful and to reiterate UNBELIEVABLE that I could be even contemplating such treacherous thoughts. And of course to still be sane, and not at the bottom of a pit being eaten alive by my mind! Sorry to not be able to elaborate more just yet on my journey out of the cult, but looking forward to having the opportunity to converse and share some thoughts, concerns, some fears and delight from my experience as a very recent ex. Thank you all again. PS Not sure whether I should be posting at the recentexes site, but it seems this is a forum for any ex, recent or otherwise? and i'm happy to play with the big kids anyway I think. Open to comments, just not sure when I'll be able to access computer again, in terms of responding. PPS The best best thing, especially intially was the great laughs i got from some of your posts. Talk about joy, now hang on, isn't that only supposed to come from within inside of me. Huh?

Subject: We've got a few things in common... From: Chuck S. To: freedomrider Date Posted: Thurs, May 16, 2002 at 02:18:44 (PDT) Email Address: chuckS1981@bootbox.net Message: Hi and welcome! I recieved Knowledge on christmas eve, 1981. When I learned about M., he was presented as a teacher, who could reveal something that was already inside all human beings. I wasn't looking for a Master, either. My focus was more on the Knowledge than the teacher, it was the meditation and the good vibes of friends that drew me in. 20 years later, he IS 'The Master', with a gift only he can give, people without this knowledge are 'like' dead people, and only he can save us, because nobody has ever saved themselves. He doesn't know our names, he doesn't WANT to know them, we "keep in touch" by sending in checks and subscribing to Dish TV Network. Where is the love and good vibes that drew me in 20 years ago? Like you, I also got involved with syncronized participation, which was a real eye-opener and really showed me that there was a lot of things to be uncomfortable about. EPO helped me put the pieces together, say no to the dog collar and extract myself. I highly recommend syncronized participation for anyone who has doubts about what Mahraraji is really up to. I also know premies who I think would be absolutely devestated if anything shattered their faith in Maharaji. You want to be truthful with them, yet you care about them and don't want to see them hurt, either by staying or leaving. It can be very tricky. It's a situation lots of people here are familiar with. I look forward to hearing more from you.

Subject: Synchronized Participation... From: Cynthia To: Chuck S. Date Posted: Thurs, May 16, 2002 at 08:53:11 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Chuck, Like you, I also got involved with syncronized participation, which was a real eye-opener and really showed me that there was a lot of things to be uncomfortable about. EPO helped me put the pieces together, say no to the dog collar and extract myself. I highly recommend syncronized participation for anyone who has doubts about what Mahraraji is really up to. Synchronized participation is what sent me walking too. The way you use that expression always gives me a laugh because it's so true. In my small, teeny, weeny, little premie community the only opportunities for synchronized participation were to be the 'light dimmer' (sychronized for ambience at video showings) and giving money. Maharaji prefers the money and light dimming is not my forte. Cynthia

Subject: Re: Synchronized Participation... From: Will To: Cynthia Date Posted: Thurs, May 16, 2002 at 11:13:47 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Oh, oh, I feel an anti-Rawat essay coming on. Yeah, his version of service is so unappetizing. It's basically: be a pee-on. Because you can't have a cult unless there are lots and lots of pee-ons and a few pissers. What would happen if every person who wanted to participate was allowed to develop their own ideas about what their contribution could be? Rawat takes young people with lots of talent and turns them into light-switch-operators! That really is funny. The last time I attempted to do service was in 1995 or so. I was asked to do something and then promptly told HOW to do it. I said I would be glad to help out but the particulars I would do MY way. I can still remember the surprised look on the person's face. What a sacrilege. I was well on my way to exness. Later, I saw a friend of mine being an usher at Long Beach 1997. I cringed. Ok, it's human nature and in any organization there is a hierarchy and there are very few corporations that allow real human freedom and creativity. But that's business. And you have to make a living in this unfair society. But when it comes to truth and love and serving truth and love, you just don't need some boss telling you how to do it. It has to come from you, or it's not real service. I guess Rawat would not agree with that, although he does say 'it has to come from the heart' and do it only if you want to. But then he tries to marry that to light-switch operating and giving up all individuality. I have often wondered how and why some people stay with Maharaji now. I don't think any of us Westerners were out there looking for a master. I certainly wasn't looking for a messiah figure. Like Chuck, I was attracted to the 'vibe.' But now I think that some people do WANT to have a spiritual master. They WANT to be told what to do. They are willing to overlook a lot of stuff in order to maintain whatever it is that they have with their supposed master. The only premies that now remain are the ones who have some need for relying on a master figure. It is a pathology. I say it is a pathology because it is a way to wear rose-colored glasses instead of looking at life the way it is. All the premies who post on Life's Great WANT life to be GREAT, they want a living Perfect Master to be with in their lives, and when they stand there turning the light off when the video comes on, they let themselves believe that it is in service to the highest purpose of life. And they act like what Rawat has to say merits being simultaneously translated into a dozen different languages. And then they have both the gall and the naivete to claim that what their master has shown them inside is so utterly supreme and wonderful when they know damned well that they have been struggling along for years. Surely this is all going to peter out soon now.

Subject: ***BEST OF FORUM***nomination -( Will) From: Livia To: Will Date Posted: Fri, May 17, 2002 at 05:36:58 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: That post of Will's is brilliant.

Subject: Welcome home From: Anandaji To: freedomrider Date Posted: Wed, May 15, 2002 at 20:58:41 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Welcome home, Brother FreedomRider! Welcome home.

Subject: You have done this before.. From: Nigel To: Trevor Date Posted: Thurs, May 16, 2002 at 18:46:10 (PDT) Email Address: nige@redcrow.demon.co.uk Message: It was about a year ago, when John Macgregor first exited. You suggested his then, at first, anonymous persona was, in fact, the creation of several Australian exes - Lesley and a couple of others. How wrong you were then and how wrong you probably are now, Jane/Cerise/Chris Bailey/David Bailey/Embarrassed Troll.. Three possibilities for the 'protests too much' nature of your reponse... (1) You wrote it. This one doesn't hold water, even given your antisocial history here of trying to cause maximum confusion and disruption. You couldn't have written a post like that, for the simple reason that it rings true. If it appears to you cliched in some respects (to me it doesn't), that is because all exes have been through similar life experiences and adopted similar belief systems, which must now be relinquished. Throwing that all aside requires the exiting premie to go through a number of both cognitive and emotional changes, which tend to be universal for cult members. For you too, probably, in due course. Unless you have been through those changes yourself, you could never fake them. (2) You know the post is genuine - are somewhat freaked by it - but want lurkers to doubt that it is genuine. (par for the course..) (3) You really think this a fake post, penned by someone other than yourself. I don't know - perhaps one needs a fake head to see it that way... Goodnight

Subject: Re: Good BS, Trevor From: Gail To: Trevor Date Posted: Thurs, May 16, 2002 at 14:03:55 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You are only fooling those stupid enough to get fooled by DLM in the first place and are now disgruntled and angry because they left with nothing in their back pockets. What are you talking about. Weren't you involved with DIVINE LIGHT MISSION? That was the name of the game when I joined. What made you so special? Were you a co-pilot of Maharaji's to begin with. Otherwise, you went: jumbling, selling mags door-to-door, propaging in the park, bowing and scraping on the floor, sharing [drivel] satsang, drinking Prem's bathwater, kissing Prem's feet, giving him money, travelling to see the Lord, etc. Geez, did I leave anything out? Oh, ya! Being a card-carrying member of DLM, etc., etc., etc. You are not telling the truth, Trevor. Do you mean that you haven't been fooled and aren't still being fooled. What a schmuck!

Subject: Was Prem also fooled by DLM? :C) [nt] From: PatC To: Gail Date Posted: Thurs, May 16, 2002 at 18:04:35 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: CULT PARANOIA! From: Hal To: Trevor Date Posted: Thurs, May 16, 2002 at 00:03:32 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You always get so freaked out and nasty whenever a new defector posts don't you Ozzy? Why does it threaten you so much? You did the same to me when I left in 2000 and I admit I did find it unsettling. It sucks . It confirms CULT CULT CULT!

Subject: Yes, Anonymous Cultweasel From: PatC To: Trevor Date Posted: Wed, May 15, 2002 at 20:34:36 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Why don't you just stck with one fake persona. You've posted under four aliases just on this page alone. So what's your real name? Where do you live? You said: ''...show a little more viciousness and hatred towards premies and M.'' Sorry, but all those crazy inarticulate screamers who have left F7 are now posting on the premie forum and being treated like royalty by you suckers. Or are they suckers and don't even know that they are being used by you spin-doctor cultweasels?

Subject: Nothing anon here. From: Catweasel To: PatC Date Posted: Wed, May 15, 2002 at 21:04:10 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Wont work Pat.You,JHB,Jim and Gerry are the chief spindoctors. Trouble is none of you are any good at it.

Subject: You're SO right, kittty... From: Andrea Eriksonn To: Catweasel Date Posted: Thurs, May 16, 2002 at 11:41:59 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: There is NOTHING anonymouse about Trevor using an Anonymizer Service (http://@nonymouse.com/ (Unix)) to prevent the naughty ex students from seeing who he really is. But they just won't see that, because they are filtering out the good. Thank you Dear One, for pointing that out. Yours In That Feeling, Andrea Eriksonn :), President, Friends of Catweasel Fan Club And one of the most ardent fans of Catweasel! ())

Subject: Whoa,lets get back to that feeling!.. From: Andy Daverdson To: Andrea Eriksonn Date Posted: Thurs, May 16, 2002 at 22:00:31 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Whoa, dude, I mean like lets get back to basics here. OK, and get outa all that mind stuff, OK. Its like when I'm hanging with the satguru, and we're making music, and I'm like getting blitzed by THAT love and THAT feeling, cos I He's putting me in THAT place, well dude, that's pretty far out.... I mean like I'm melting, and the vibe is really buzzin, and it's like you just gotta be there to get it, like know what I mean dude? Life with the guru is a gas... Don't go with that mind stuff...

Subject: Lucky person From: hamzen To: freedomrider Date Posted: Wed, May 15, 2002 at 15:10:01 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It might get a bit tough when you start finding them sending you to Coventry, but it's a quick way of finding out which of any of your premie acquaintances truly are friends. Just don't have high expectations, you know already from undercurrents what the majority reaction is likely to be. Enjoy the freedom, the waters warm, and you have a life ofg personal choices and paths ahead which once you get over the shock of the depth of cultdom around you and in your own head, will be positively invigorating. Freedom truly is a wonderful thing, as is democracy. Vive le internet indeed.

Subject: Hi FR From: PatD To: freedomrider Date Posted: Wed, May 15, 2002 at 13:05:56 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It's great to be able to find out isn't it. I tend to go more for the story telling side of things,rather than the theory.....so if you've got any good ones,type away. Of course the story & the theory are all mixed up together. All the best:Pat Dorrity,Stratford-upon-Avon,England.

Subject: hi ho, Freedomrider From: PatC To: freedomrider Date Posted: Wed, May 15, 2002 at 12:32:06 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thank you so much for jumping in and welcome to reality. You said: ''I ask myself if i am being disrespectful, and indeed sometimes cruel, in questioning people's sometimes very very deeply held beliefs. I am finding this of particular concern with people who are not really committed practising premmies, but still seem to hold so so dear and close their utter trust in M's superhuman divine status.'' Yes, that is a big dilemma. I feel that I am being unpleasantly evangelical if I try to proselytise my new-found freedom from cult-think since I'm a firm believer in laissez-faire, to each his own, live and let live, one man's meat etc. And the worst cases really are the uncommitted fringe premies who have no idea what is really going on and are stuck in some sort of seventies time-warp (when the cult was at least some fun.) My suggestion to them is always: ''Go and do some synchronized participation first and then come back and tell me it isn't a cult.'' I'm looking forward to hearing a lot more from you. Patrick Conlon, San Francisco

Subject: Welcome.... From: Cynthia To: freedomrider Date Posted: Wed, May 15, 2002 at 12:10:27 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi, Please take a seat, get comfortable and enjoy. There's no pressure to reveal your name nor to convert other premies. This is your journey out of one hell of a hell hole. You sound like a person who can contribute a lot to good conversation and good old-fashioned fun. Relax, it's your life...finally!! Cynthia J. Gracie Vermont, USA

Subject: Welcome home to yourself From: Richard To: freedomrider Date Posted: Wed, May 15, 2002 at 11:45:26 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: What a long strange trip it's been (and is) for myself and others. So glad to have you share your thoughts and feelings - both of which were hijacked for so long. You sound intelligent and awake so I look forward to reading more about your path. All the very best with rediscovering yourself without attributing everything to M. And don't feel like the Lone Ranger - you're not. :) Richard

Subject: Hey, kemosabe From: Jim To: freedomrider Date Posted: Wed, May 15, 2002 at 11:17:35 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Great to hear from you. Thanks for the vicarious hit off your excitement as well. I'd love to hear more about how it all came together for you and all that. As for 'recent exes', that's a bit of a misnomer in my opinion. It's really no more than a private forum for exes who are still very spiritually-inclined who want to be able to express their beliefs without having some 'asshole' like me say 'Really? How do you know?' It's extremely private such that, if you join, you're not supposed to tell anyone what you say or read there. If that sounds like fun, go for it. :)

Subject: I like it! Its restful Jim From: Bryn To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, May 16, 2002 at 02:16:51 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ' ...no more than a private forum for exes who are still very spiritually-inclined who want to be able to express their beliefs without having some 'asshole' like me say 'Really? How do you know?' I'll go with that, except for the 'no more than' bit. Love Bryn

Subject: Restful like a dream, I'm sure [nt] From: Jim To: Bryn Date Posted: Thurs, May 16, 2002 at 09:26:14 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Dreams are real I'M sure. From: Bryn To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, May 17, 2002 at 03:20:52 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Battle of the aphorisms? From: Bryn To: Bryn Date Posted: Fri, May 17, 2002 at 03:28:29 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Welcome,come on in, water's fine.. From: Jim S. To: freedomrider Date Posted: Wed, May 15, 2002 at 11:02:30 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hey freedomrider- Welcome! Take your time, relax and let the process take it's natural course. For myself, it has been a time of extraordinary growth, renewal, change and liberation. Leaving the fold can be exhilarating and scary at the same time. I'm, sure you'll have lots more to share, as time goes on. Take it at your own pace, and... Welcome! Jim S.

Subject: Silver Bells From: Gregg To: freedomrider Date Posted: Wed, May 15, 2002 at 11:00:14 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Congratulations on your steps to freedom and all of freedom's possibilities. On confronting old premie friends with your new-found knowledge about Knowledge...just do whatever feels right. You don't have any obligation to get them to be honest about their motivations for believing in Prem Pal. I only have one premie friend, having left 'Knowledge' many years ago. I told her what I thought about it all, briefly, but the pain of watching her try to process this was too much for me to watch. I'm more of a peacemaker type than a stir-it-up type, I guess, so when I see her these days, I leave her to her beliefs and she leaves me to mine. Anyway, best of luck to you. Looking foward to hearing more later.

Subject: Claudia From: Livia To: All Date Posted: Wed, May 15, 2002 at 07:43:42 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'm in curiousity mode today: does anybody know what happened to Claudia? I think I remember reading here a few months ago that she exed. Does anybody know why? Livia

Subject: Re: Claudia From: connection? To: Livia Date Posted: Thurs, May 16, 2002 at 07:38:13 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Article 2 of 2; 552 words Published on October 31, 1985, Page 18, Miami Herald, The (FL) Source: Herald Staff Bal Harbour *10175 Collins Ave.-- $300,000 -- W.B.W. Corp. (buyer); City National Bank of Miami, trustee (seller).*9801 Collins Ave.-- $255,000 -- Mr. and Mrs. Fred Leighton (buyers); Mr. and Mrs. Enrique Waxtein (sellers).Miami Beach4385 Pine Tree Dr.-- $385,000 -- Mr. and Mrs. Russell Galbut and Mr. and Mrs. Hyman Galbut (buyers); Mr. and Mrs. Dharampal Rawat (sellers).*8101 Byron Ave.-- (2) units (at) $65,000 each -- AE3 Partnership (buyer); Moises Gorin Click here for complete article

Subject: Re: Claudia From: Livia To: connection? Date Posted: Thurs, May 16, 2002 at 15:04:58 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Excuse my dimberoidness, but click where? Livia

Subject: Re: Claudia From: 411 To: Livia Date Posted: Wed, May 15, 2002 at 19:07:31 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Claudia lives in Santa Fe with her husband and travels to Miami for work on occasion.

Subject: Are you in touch with her? From: Jim To: 411 Date Posted: Wed, May 15, 2002 at 19:17:15 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Are you in contact with her at all or are you able to be? Where's she at? What's what? Just plain what?

Subject: Re: Are you in touch with her? From: 411 To: Jim Date Posted: Wed, May 15, 2002 at 20:59:01 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: No, I'm not in touch; I don't know what last name she uses. Maybe someone knows an ex in Santa Fe who would know. Not me, though.

Subject: The crystal ball is murky From: Jim To: Livia Date Posted: Wed, May 15, 2002 at 19:01:41 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Liv, Claudia's name comes up, naturally enough, every once in a while. The last speculation I remember was with Bazza, of all people, back when he was emailing me constantly to establish our good and trusting friendship. :) Bazza seemed to know that she was still in Florida, perhaps working in fashion or cosmetics or something beauty-related. He was going to try to find me a number but that fell through. Did you know her at all? Are you seriously interested in trying to reach her. Although I never asked him, I bet Mike Dettmers might have some clue as to where to start. Wouldn't it be something if she chose to open up and tell all?

Subject: Re: The crystal ball is murky From: Livia To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, May 16, 2002 at 03:30:38 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: No, Jim, I didn't know her personally. I was just wondering why she exed and what had happened to her, that's all. I especially find myself wondering about people like her when reading premies talking about their personal contact with Maharaji and how wonderful he is up close and personal. And then you hear how people like Claudia, his erst-while sister-in-law, who must have known him pretty well, have renounced him. And you wonder what caused her to become so disillusioned. Heigh-ho! Love, Liv

Subject: there were some posts re : Claudia From: la-ex To: Livia Date Posted: Thurs, May 16, 2002 at 07:30:48 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I remember some time in the last year or two a few posts about Claudia and her past involvement. Ths is what I remember from them: She split from the Raja and there was a huge fight over their girl. M tried to adopt her, or gain custody of her, which enraged Claudia. Some rumors that she may have had a 'divine fling' with m... She wanted to write a book called 'From riches to rags' or something like that a while back, but didn't. She considered fighting m legally, but decided it wouldn't work, because he had too much money... She is a designer of some sort now in Miami...there was an article written about her in a local paper about her career... She is definitely an ex. She lived for awhile in upstate NY while she separated from the Raja, which was part of the rumor about m moving to upstate NY many years ago.... These posts are in the archives somwhere....

Subject: Re: The crystal ball is murky From: Vicki To: Livia Date Posted: Thurs, May 16, 2002 at 07:23:31 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Whatever it was, it must have been shattering, because I remember the satsang she gave when she and Rajaji had to move out of the Malibu residence. She said she cried and cried and cried but if it was M's will, well that was that. Then she said something about being a gopi. This was after Navi was born, if memory serves me right. Anyone else remember this satsang?

Subject: If previous rumours are anything From: hamzen To: Livia Date Posted: Wed, May 15, 2002 at 15:17:54 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: she probably left because rawat was worse in bed than her own husband. No physical semen induced proof of this, yet, but we do know how lazy he is in only seducing, or being presented with female premies, in his vicinity. And he does have a tendency to pick the fit ones, which I seem to remember Claudia was, as was Rawats wife when younger. Don't know though if his ongoing mistress Monica Lewis is of that type, but rawat does have the kind of one dimensional mind of the kind of guy who always fancies similar looking women. Can you imagine being shagged by the lord of the universe and finding out he's next to useless in bed, could blow a few large concepts, from other reports he;s completely useless.

Subject: The only thing I ever From: Jethro To: Livia Date Posted: Wed, May 15, 2002 at 09:14:07 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: heard, which was several years ago, that she was touring Europe giving anti-maharaji talks. No other information. It must be quite something to be divorced from 'the Guardian of Truth', Dharma Pal Singh Rowatt aka Rajaji. jethro

Subject: Changing techiques From: Livia To: All Date Posted: Wed, May 15, 2002 at 07:33:06 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: In the 80's - I think it was around 1985 - most of us had a Knowledge review during which the light technique was revised and we were told only to practise once a day, 15 minutes on each technique. The techniques were also renamed and beragons discarded. For me the most affecting aspect of this change was that we were told not to attempt to practise the 3rd technique (the old 'remember Holy Name') all day any more. I received Knowledge in 1972 and had spent over a decade attempting to control my mind for the best part of each day by the practise of this technique. Time spent idly thinking, musing or wondering about things was, to my premie mind, time spent away from what I should be doing. This is not to say I felt guilty about those times - how could you? - it was so difficult to 'constantly remember Holy Name!' But it did set up a sort of battle within you where you couldn't help feeling somewhat ambivalent about the act of thinking. Current premies may think 'you took it all too literally', and I have seen them taking this line, but I'm afraid this is 'fudge' and spin. Never at any time did Maharaji ever tell us in those days that we could interpret his instructions as loosely as we wished. He was more likely to rage at us on occasion that we weren't taking him literally enough. So, to get round to my point here, does anybody know why he suddenly told us not to 'constantly meditate' any more? I don't think we should underestimate the effects of having such a blanket instruction suddenly removed in that way, without any explanation whatsoever. And what about the premies who didn't have that Knowledge review? Presumably there are still premies out there following the original thing! What of them, as far as Maharaji is concerned, I wonder? If anyone has any angle or information on this, please post it! Livia

Subject: Re: Changing techiques From: Happie Frenchie To: Livia Date Posted: Wed, May 15, 2002 at 14:49:17 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hello, Livia You ask : 'Why M suddenly told us not to 'constantly meditate' any more? ' Here is my take on it, as cynical as it may be : he changed the initial rules of meditation (2 hours a day at least down to 1 hour, holy name constantly down to 15 minutes, even the somewhat esoteric names of the techniques became numbers, and we were not meditating any longer, but 'practicing') for the same reasons he closed the ashram : not lucrative enough. The gentle souls who are happy to spend their time following their breath are rarely the same people who are eagerly pursuing high paying careers in a world where dog eats dog. I guess he realized that his prior 'recommendations' - or agya, as it was called at one time - had turned his followers into grade A low achievers who, for the most part, were content to have mindless jobs that paid diddly squat.. He needed us to go and make money, real money, and lots of it, so we could go on supporting his millionaire lifestyle. And you don't make money if you spend too much time at home under a blanket. After reading and reading tons of posts here and digging in 'Best of the Forums', I've reached the conclusion that M is 'selling' his meditation techniques under the name Knowledge, or whatever label du jour, like others sell cars or vacuum cleaners. This is his bread and butter. This is his trade. He's a highly trained professional salesman. And nothing but a salesman. And as such, he knows damned well he needs to tailor his product to whatever the public wants, to the fashion of the day, so to speak. In the 70's, anything who had 'Indian spirituality' branded on it was selling like hot cakes. Well, he gave us 'Indian spirituality'. In the 80's, decade of the yuppies, he became himself a yuppie. K became 'practical', everything got toned down, the Indian stuff disappeared, it all turned to 'white bread'. In the 90's, 'hi-tech' made its rise. He gave us 'high-tech' and video-links and laptops on stage with charts and numbers of meals served during Indian festivals ( Rome, '96 or '97 : I thought I was going to vomit !) and playbacks in Long Beach. In the year 2002, it's Leader magazine and self-knowledge. Guruness is out, PremPality is in. But underlying it all, the name of the game is money -- YOUR money in HIS pocket. It's all pretty sad, and terribly brutal, but these are the conclusions I've reached after reading tons of posts here and digging in 'Best of the Forums'. Alas, it wasn't really news to me. Just a confirmation of what I had sensed a while back... Happie Frenchie

Subject: The problem with Prem Rawat From: Jean-Michel To: Happie Frenchie Date Posted: Thurs, May 16, 2002 at 08:25:37 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: There are several gurus selling more or less the same 'product' on every continent. This has been well documented and references can be found on EPO. When all of other 'satgurus' stick to their original package/product's presentation and seem to have a steady following, Prem(pal) Rawat seems to change his every 6 months. Why ? He's not satified with his success IMO (i.e. the number of newbees and his income - constantly decreasing). Why he's not satisfied with this situation ? The fact he doesn't seem to 'meditate' is not enough of an explanation ..... My opinion is he's such a megalomaniac that he can't be satisfied with what he has. And he's the one creating the problem in his cult (beside the fact that Indian gurus are not trendy anymore).

Subject: Tres Good post ne'st pas ! From: Loaf le franglais To: Happie Frenchie Date Posted: Thurs, May 16, 2002 at 05:45:19 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Je like very much what vous ecrire. Il make beaucoup de sense. Je pense que votre post est le **PREMIER DE FORUM** Avec best wishes Pain

Subject: Cher Loaf From: Happie Frenchie To: Loaf le franglais Date Posted: Thurs, May 16, 2002 at 14:19:31 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Cher Loaf, Your post is just just too cute - especially the signature 'Pain'. It made my day, I must say. Great sense of humor ! Francaise Heureuse -- and especially heureuse since she left this ludicrous con game and all its silliness !

Subject: Re: Cher Loaf From: AV To: Happie Frenchie Date Posted: Sat, May 18, 2002 at 10:14:07 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Saviennce? C'est un morceau de gateau!

Subject: Mon pleasure [nt] From: Loaf au chocolat To: Happie Frenchie Date Posted: Fri, May 17, 2002 at 07:35:48 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Excellent analysis, Petite Grenouille;) [nt] From: PatC To: Happie Frenchie Date Posted: Wed, May 15, 2002 at 17:17:25 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Merci, Pat, c'est gentil (nt) ! From: Happie Frenchie To: PatC Date Posted: Thurs, May 16, 2002 at 03:22:07 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: Changing techiques From: PatC To: Livia Date Posted: Wed, May 15, 2002 at 12:42:25 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I don't know why he told us to stop remembering Holy Name constantly but he sure did say that. The funny thing if course is that once you realise how relaxing it is why would one want to stop doing it? At the time of the tech change I thought that he was being kind and loosening the tight religiosity. Now I'm beginning to think that he did not know what he was doing other than exerting his control. That's all he has ever done.

Subject: ExACTly PatC From: Disculta To: PatC Date Posted: Thurs, May 16, 2002 at 15:34:36 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I think I was just barely still in when the techs changed, and I remember clearly thinking 'WHY?' And then thinking, 'No way he meditates if he's changing this.' Twas adrip. Not that you have to do it all the time or anything and feel guilty if you don't. But I think you know what I mean from what you wrote Pat. love ktd

Subject: I know YOU knew that I knew :C) From: PatC To: Disculta Date Posted: Thurs, May 16, 2002 at 16:54:57 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: See we're all so goddam psychic here. It's the religion, Sweetie Dahling. If he says ''Constantly meditate,'' that's what they do and get their tits in a tangle about it. I know I did. I felt guilty when I forgot and most other serious premies I knew also felt guilty. If he says ''Remember to breathe,'' then they get their tits in a tangle about that one. One premie very worried asked me: ''Do you think M means that we're meant to go back to remembering it ALL the time?'' It's the same old-timey ''go to hell if you don't obey'' religious crap that's been around since Moses figured he could make a good living being a hellfire and brimstone preacherman. Hope you are doing well and come to dinner soon.

Subject: Re: Changing techiques From: Hal To: PatC Date Posted: Thurs, May 16, 2002 at 00:16:13 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I found the meditation on breath to be the most liberating and centering technique. The last thing Jabba the Hut wants is folks finding out that they don't need him to feel free . Also I suspect that he was unable to remember more than one breath , with all that cognac , caffeine and nicotone in his system , not to mention the overwhelming desires for the next material goodies.He didn't want to be outperformed by some humble premie who really was in the 'holy name'

Subject: Nice to see you back, Hal From: PatC To: Hal Date Posted: Thurs, May 16, 2002 at 00:52:15 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You said: ''He didn't want to be outperformed by some humble premie who really was in the holy name.'' That thought did cross my mind. Once you really get into it, you realize you don't need him. Well, that's what happened with me. After that I stuck with him out of sentimental loyalty until I couldn't stomach his idiocy anymore. Both he and most of the premies I know pay lip service to meditation. No wonder they all booze and take drugs - it's probably the only time they get high. And when they have their charismatic revivalist foot-kissing meetings.

Subject: Re: Changing techiques From: Jim S. To: Livia Date Posted: Wed, May 15, 2002 at 11:11:28 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: One thing that m said in the k-review I went to was that some people were 'hiding' behind the 'holy name technique...they were ignoring messages they should be getting by trying to remember their breath all day long. I felt that he was right about that, at the time. Besides that, nothing else was remarkable, although I do remember m and some instructors at the time saying that m had to do the reviews for all the premies in the world, so no one felt left out. I could have cared less... Now I see how much we were hiding behind the whole trip, not just technique #3.... I think that rather than geting in touch with our true self, we were hiding from some very real messages that our friends, loved ones, and our own emotional, physical and spiritual seleves were trying to tell us...

Subject: Re: Changing techiques From: Jethro To: Livia Date Posted: Wed, May 15, 2002 at 09:18:36 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I remember him telling us that we could drive 100mph thru the rush hour if we were 'on the Word'. No idea why he changed it, but hey it did generate all the Rejoice programs and all those donations. He even had his own smoking room in Birmingham where he could go out and have a fag.

Subject: Re: Changing techiques From: Cynthia To: Livia Date Posted: Wed, May 15, 2002 at 08:44:08 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Livia, I received k in 1976 and got the squish yer eyeballs technique among the others, including 'constantly meditate and remember holy name.' Somewhere between '76 and '81 when I left the ashram we had a knowledge review with initiators who were revising the techniques then--easing up on the eyeball pressure. When I tried to reconnect with the cult in the late 90s I had no idea if the techniques had been revised again (except for the names of the techs) so I asked. So did my sister in Conn. Everybody we asked both here in Vermont and Conn. kept saying ''the techniques are the same nothing has changed.'' Then I found out I was doing them in backwards order, which I found more pleasant, starting out with breath, tongue, light, and ears. I don't know why I had forgotten the 'correct order.' I never went to a knowledge review where Prem conducted the review. But knowing how he is and how he operates if he said no more than 15 minutes per day on breath he meant it as his agya. I don't have the answer to why he changed it to 15 minutes per day. I do remember a post here quite a while ago when someone stated that a woman premie protested to Maharaji during one of those reviews, saying something to the effect of 'I love concentrating on breath all day, why do I have to limit it.' (all paraphrased) His reply was basically, it's my Knowledge and it you don't like it, walk. That's anecdotal. I have no memory of who posted that here but do remember it. Take care, Love, Cynthia

Subject: Re: Changing techiques From: Jethro To: Cynthia Date Posted: Wed, May 15, 2002 at 09:20:59 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Well one of his early selling points was that 'this knowledge can be practisec 24 hrs a day...while walking, talking ,eating and even sleeping'. Anyone care to deny this?

Subject: I walked after a review From: Richard To: Cynthia Date Posted: Wed, May 15, 2002 at 09:17:36 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I've told this before but fits with the topic. This was mid-80's when M did the K reviews. I can't recall the changes in techniques but vividly recall something M said. Perhaps someone asked about not finding time to practice K or a similar question. M said Well, you don't HAVE to practice Knowledge you know. He was being cocky and daring us to NOT practice K. My personal experience, though, was it hit me hard right in my solar plexus. It was very intense. Wait a minute here - of course we HAD to practice K. After all, that had been emphasized (drilled into us) since day one. So that was a change in K that caught my attention for sure. That week I went on a 10 day retreat with a self empowerment group I had been working with. By day 2 I had stopped K which I had missed maybe 5 days of practice in 14 years. I didn't start up again for another 7 years. Why go back? Well, I missed the community of my old friends and when M came to Seattle and did an intro event I was amazed at how simple it all was. No guru stuff. M was just a meditation teacher now - cool. Then I attended a K review with M and again - so simple. Next came Long Beach and the nostalgia vibes were familiar but - whoa! What's with all the devotional stuff? I thought that stuff was over with. The old bait and switch. Of course now that he has discarded the confusing Hindu stuff that never was and is Prem my Pal the foundation leader, perhaps it's safe to try self-knowledge again? NOT! Richard

Subject: Best of Forum just updated! From: Jean-Michel To: All Date Posted: Wed, May 15, 2002 at 07:23:57 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dozens of updates on the Best of Forum page Don't miss: M's Urban legends - including M's trip to the planet of the perfect masters and meeting with Durga on the way back And a lot more to come this week ....

Subject: Cainer Saga in the Best Of page From: Jean-Michel To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Thurs, May 16, 2002 at 08:00:49 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The Cainer Saga - The Daily Mail seems unaware that its own astrologer is a devotee of a sinister cult. The Guardian

Subject: Thanks, J-M. YOU are the best. [nt] From: PatC To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Thurs, May 16, 2002 at 11:07:42 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: You're the Best Of Forum, J-M! From: Richard To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Wed, May 15, 2002 at 14:54:02 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks as always for your behind the scenes hard work. EPO is looking good. I checked out a couple of the threads and they truly are good. I would advise any fencesitter, newcomer, "thinking about getting some perspective" or even "you're all a bunch of winey loosers (sic)" folks to go to Best Of. It's a great way to cover a huge amount of territory quickly.

Subject: Thanks, Jean-Michel... From: Cynthia To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Wed, May 15, 2002 at 09:37:33 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi, Thanks for your work. I just read through quite a few them and it was revealing and funny. I'd forgotton about so many of the posts... Love, Cynthia

Subject: Best of best? From: Jean-Michel To: Cynthia Date Posted: Wed, May 15, 2002 at 10:10:33 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'm sure you've noticed there is now too many links on that page ! What about making a best of best section, as an introduction maybe ? Waiting for suggestions.

Subject: Re: Best of best? From: Cynthia To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Wed, May 15, 2002 at 11:59:28 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Well Jean-Michel, Doesn't that mean more work for you? It's quite good the way it stands. Who decides which ones are 'best of best?'B)

Subject: Re: Best of best? From: Jean-Michel To: Cynthia Date Posted: Wed, May 15, 2002 at 13:21:03 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Having a 'best of best' paragraph on that page is virtualy nothing. One thing is to pick up a few links in each section.

Subject: No THAT line again From: Jethro To: All Date Posted: Wed, May 15, 2002 at 05:48:12 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I met up with a friend who I meet occassionally at clubs/parties. Billy is a long-time premie who has never had much to do with DLM/EV,but has that devotion to maharaji. Anyway, to cut a long story short, I made it really clear in our first meeting what I thought about maharaji and just to leave the subject alone with me. Anyway, I met him last weekend at a party and he just started off talking about prem as if I was a devotee. It was a great party, and Billy told me that the party was great due to GMJ's grace(he doesn't know about calling HIM prem yet) and only him and me knew that. I gently reminded him that I no longer believed in maharaji and that I had no respect whatsoever for his Lord(ie prem). He then continued to 'give me satsang', at which point I shouted that I was not interested in having a liar and paedophile protector in my life etc blah blah...blah. Anyway, we sort of made up and he ended up saying THAT punchline that encapsulates the premie-ego ..and here it is.... 'Jethro, I don't care what you say, but anyone who has received knowledge, whether they practice or not, whether ex-premie or not is different to everyone else.' I replied 'Yes Billy, and the HareKrishnas, Moonies etc say the same thing about their cult leaders.'

Subject: But of course premies are special From: PatC To: Jethro Date Posted: Wed, May 15, 2002 at 12:13:45 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Now pronounce ''special'' with a southern US accent (as in ''You are my spatial angel.'') Yep, they're spatial all right.

Subject: But he's right, isn't he? From: la-ex To: Jethro Date Posted: Wed, May 15, 2002 at 11:50:15 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: In my community, premies are known as being different... I didn't really see this until a few years back,when a non-remie friend pointed it out to me, but premies were definitely regarded as being 'different'.... Mostly, it was their otherworldliness, stunted emotional/psychological growth, stand-off-ishness, lack of appropriate worldy and educational experiences,inability to keep it together as far as working, holding down a job or relationship, problems with their children, divorces etc.....in general,a huge amount of problems.....and many of them believing theselves to be more 'enlightened' than the rest of society, to be sure... Yes, premies are generally 'different' than others, although not always in the ways they might imagine...

Subject: weird communities, unique or what? From: Livia To: la-ex Date Posted: Wed, May 15, 2002 at 13:17:43 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It's funny, whenever I point out that the premies are just like that in my community, which is on the other side of the world to yours, I get remarks from premies to the effect that my community must be uniquely weird. I don't know if you live in the same town as Silvia, but I remember a post from her a few weeks back where she described most of the premies as being very much like the premies in your community and mine. Funny, that. Three totally unrepresentative premie communities, all in different places! I suppose we must be the exceptions, and that there can't be any other communities like it anywhere else in the world. Love, Liv

Subject: Re: weird communities, unique or what? From: Evan To: Livia Date Posted: Wed, May 15, 2002 at 20:06:59 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: yes but you see, everyone hangs with those who are like them whether they are premie or not. You, being a social loser hang out with similar people, so the premies you know would have been the same, social misfits. Its the same with the communities Jethro and Silvia live in and hang out with,social losers, premie or not. Of course they only see premie losers! If you people had hung out with successful premies then you'd be hanging out with successful non premies now. see the social distinction? You only KNOW those like you because you wouldn't be accespted into successful premie circles any more than you'd be accepted into successful non premie circles (like now). Get it? It's about quality of people NOT their spiritual path. Delusion knows no bounds in cyberspace.

Subject: fantasy world or what??? From: Livia To: Evan Date Posted: Thurs, May 16, 2002 at 04:05:51 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: So sorry to disillusion you, Evan the all-knowing one (not). I always hung out with the most delightful premies if I could possibly help it - the musicians, actors, writers and other creative types. Back around 1983 my own community seemed to become more and more top-heavy with the decidedly weird and dysfunctional sort of premie, so I began to disengage more amd more from the local premie scene, still meditating and going to see Maharaji, but finding the local premies harder and harder to relate to. Fortunately I was working in the arts with some extremely interesting and talented people to whom I began, understandably, to become more drawn. They have remained my friends, along with a lot of other creative, interesting and intelligent people who have never been premies. Some of my old premie friends who are now of the 'drifting' variety, or exed, are also amongst my oldest and closest friends. The premies who are remaining in this area seem sad, lost and grey, given to telling dirty and misogynistic jokes ad nauseum, and also to endless reminiscing about the old days, when life really did have some magic for them. Oh, and if by 'successful premie circles' you mean the sort of premies who worship money and compare fast cars, then that's not the sort of success I have any time for, either in premies or anyone else, never have. In fact, I've always preferred the company of imaginative, creative people who tend to be open to new ideas and like to make things happen. They tend to be materially successful, but not because they have pursued material success for its own sake. They have integrity and have a lot of fun too. So, sorry to disappoint you, but I'm no loser, nor are the people I hang out with. It's a shame, that, because it kind of spoils your theory. Now do you want to cast around for another explanation as to why the premies in my, Silvia's and Jethro's areas are generally dysfunctional? Livia

Subject: Excuse me, Livia From: PatC To: Livia Date Posted: Thurs, May 16, 2002 at 11:13:49 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: What about the pitiful premies in MY community? I have often mentioned that the seven premies here are absolutely pathetic sad, grey, squashed people. It broke my heart to see to that after not seeing them for 17 years. BTW We don't use the word erst-while here because the premies won't understand it. That's only for crossword puzzles. :C)

Subject: I'm startled, Pat From: Livia To: PatC Date Posted: Fri, May 17, 2002 at 05:32:51 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Pat, are you serious that there's only 7 premies left in SF? Or are you merely suggesting a downward trend? And alright, I'll stop using 'erstwhile' - it's that damned Englishness popping out again. Love, Livia

Subject: I'm serious, Livia From: PatC To: Livia Date Posted: Fri, May 17, 2002 at 11:04:12 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: When I came here 23 years ago the joint was jumping. Week night satsangs had a hundred premies. Weekend programs hundreds. Then the ashrams closed and the church-ladies moved to the burbs. What was left were the Hindu hippies and gays. Tragically most of the gays (40)died of AIDS and the hippies - well they drifted off to Rainbow gatherings etc. The burbs aren't much better off. Up until the satellite stuff started, Oakland had a hall which was bankrolled by the Indian premies in the East Bay. All history. In the nine counties of the Bay Area metropolis (pop 6 million) there are now about 20 whites and 50 Indians.

Subject: Is that so, Evan? From: la-ex To: Evan Date Posted: Wed, May 15, 2002 at 21:13:04 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: How would you know what the premie poplulation is in these communities? Do you know what it is in mine? How would you know? BTW, if people hang out wih others just like them, regardless of their spiritual path, why are you hanging outhere with a buch of 'losers'? Would that tend to make you one as well?

Subject: Freudian slip?... From: Cynthia To: la-ex Date Posted: Wed, May 15, 2002 at 12:02:53 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi la, I had to chuckle at your type: remie. as in Remy Martin Cognac... I didn't really see this until a few years back,when a non-remie>/b> friend pointed it out to me, but premies were definitely regarded as being 'different'.... Good typo, la...

Subject: Re: No THAT line again From: Thorin To: Jethro Date Posted: Wed, May 15, 2002 at 06:55:23 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'Jethro, I don't care what you say, but anyone who has received knowledge, whether they practice or not, whether ex-premie or not is different to everyone else.' Good bloody grief! - that smug premie air of superiority again. What an unbelievable belief system perpetuated by the nods and winks of Prem Rawat. Drip drip drip Thanks for sharing that Jethro. bests, Thorin

Subject: Don't blame premies for that though From: Jim To: Thorin Date Posted: Wed, May 15, 2002 at 19:57:29 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: That was part and parcel of the cult programming. It's central to the theme of the hindu myth we swallowed. Wait lifetimes and lifetimes and yugas and yugas until finally, by His Grace, you're initiated. From that point, there is no turning back. You are now -- come on, don't hide your light under a bushmills -- you are now, for the first time ever, a real human being.

Subject: The nods & winks of GMJ From: hamzen To: Thorin Date Posted: Wed, May 15, 2002 at 16:50:13 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I haven't seen a video of mr rawat for 5 years now, and I'd lay good money that he still cracks those insider jokes with a nod and a wink that are so unfunny, but the premies still laugh and expose themselves. Usually about other religions, but also 'the world' or your partner, or friends, pathetic really.

Subject: Re: No THAT line again From: Livia To: Thorin Date Posted: Wed, May 15, 2002 at 07:53:27 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dreadful, and spot on. I would hazard a guess that most premies would be reluctant to admit it though, especially these days. When I first met my partner, who isn't a premie, he soon suspected I felt something along those lines, and managed to drag it out of me. He was appalled by what he felt was a 'spiritual arrogance'. I tried to convince him that it wasn't arrogance and that I had just been fortunate enough to receive a gift, blahblahblah but he wasn't having any of it. At the root of it, he felt, was that I felt I knew something that he didn't. Which, ultimately, was true. Over on LG, Will posted a brilliant answer to Harry's post in which he pointed out that ultimately a premie feels that their feeling within is somehow different to other people's. But as he explained so well, how can one ever know this? Each person's experience is their own experience after all, and no one can get inside anyone else's. Maybe Jesus' words come in useful here: 'By their fruits ye shall know them.' Premies' fruits? Hmmmmm...... Love, Livia

Subject: Re: No THAT line again From: Jim To: Livia Date Posted: Wed, May 15, 2002 at 20:03:43 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Over on LG, Will posted a brilliant answer to Harry's post in which he pointed out that ultimately a premie feels that their feeling within is somehow different to other people's. But as he explained so well, how can one ever know this? Each person's experience is their own experience after all, and no one can get inside anyone else's. Uh oh ..... If she-who-has-no-mental-health-issues thought I was 'abusing' reinterpreting' and 'bastardizing the meaning of' Will's post just by reposting it here and calling it good, what's she going to think about your extremely loaded, and cult-like comment? Ah, for those intellectual tools, huh? But, Liv, tools like that are rare indeed!

Subject: Psychology 101 From: Vicki To: All Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 22:41:53 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Straight out of college text book: Psychology by David G. Myers The Foot-In-Door Phenomenon During the Korean War, many captured U.S. soldiers were imprisoned in war camps run by Chinese communists. Without using brutality, the captors secured the collaboration of hundreds of their prisoners in various activities. Some merely ran errands or accepted favors. Others made radio appeals and false confessions. Still others informed on fellow prisoners and divulged military information. When the war ended, 21 prisoners chose to stay with the communists. More returned home 'brainwashed'-convinced that communism was a good t hing for Asia. A key ingredient of the Chinese 'thought-control' program was its effective use of the foot-in-the-door phenomenon-a tendency for people who agree to a small request to comply later with a larger one. The Chinese harnessed this phenomenon by gradually escalating their demands on the prisoners, beginning with harmless requests (Schein, 1956). Having 'trained' the prisoners to speak or write trivial statements, the communists then asked them to copy or create something more important, noting, perhaps, the flaws of capitalism. The prisoners then participated in group discussions, wrote self-criticisms, or uttered public confessions. Once they had done so, perhaps to gain privileges, the prisoners then often adjusted their beliefs toward consistency with their public acts. The point is simple, says Rober Cialdini(1993): To get people to agree to something big, 'Start small and build.' And be wary of those who would exploit you with the tactic. A trivial act makes the next act easier. Succumb to a temptation and you will find the next temptation harder to resist. In dozens of experiments simulating part of the war prisoners' experience, people have been coaxed into acting against their attitudes or violating their moral standards. The nearly inevitable result: Most subjects begin to rationalize their behaviour, persuading themselves that they were justified in saying or doing what they did. If induced to speak or write on behalf of a point of view they have doubts about, they begin to believe their own words. Saying becomes believing. Similarly, subjects induced to harm an innocent victim-by making cutting comments or by delivering electric shocks-typically begin to disparge their victim. Experiments confirm that moral action has positive effects on the actor and that doing favors for another person often leads to greater liking of the person. We love people for the good we do them as well as for the good they do us. Evil acts certainly shape the self. But so do acts of good will. Act as if you like someone, and you soon will. Role Playing Affects Attitudes When you adopt a new role, you strive to follow the social prescriptions. At first, your behaviours may feel phony. Before long, however, your behaviour no longer feels forced. What began as play-acting in the theater of life becomes you. Researchers have confirmed this effect. They have assessed people's attitudes before and after they adopt a new role, sometimes in laboratory situations, sometimes in everyday situations, such as before and after taking a job. Behaviour affects attitudes. What we do, we gradually become. As the nineteenth-century writer Nathanial Hawthorne noted, 'No man, for any considerable period, can wear one face to himself and another to the multitude without finally getting bewildered as to whcih may be true.' When we are aware that our attitudes and actions don't coincide, we experience tension, called cognitive dissonance. To relieve this tension, according to Leon Festinger, we often bring our attitudes into line with our actions. It is as if we rational 'If I chose to do it (or say it), I must believe in it.' The less coerced and more responsible we feel for a troubling act, the more dissonance we feel. The more dissonance we feel, the more motivated we are to find consistency, such as changing our attitudes to help justify the act. "If the King destroys a man, that's proof to the King it must have been a bad man." -Thomas Cromwell, Robert Bolt's A Man for All Seasons, 1960 Part Deux to follow: Social Influence

Subject: Re: Psychology 101 From: Scott T. To: Vicki Date Posted: Wed, May 15, 2002 at 13:25:37 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Vicki: Actually, to give him his due, Marx had this covered a long time ago with a theory he called 'crosspressure.' Not surprising the Chinese used the strategy. Marx was a *really clever* dude. Unfortunately made a few diagnostic errors that resulted in huge prescriptive mistakes. Think about it though. Half a century before Freud! --Scott

Subject: Re: Psychology 101 From: Livia To: Vicki Date Posted: Wed, May 15, 2002 at 08:00:00 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I can see what you're getting at by posting that, but what do you think about this part: Experiments confirm that moral action has positive effects on the actor and that doing favors for another person often leads to greater liking of the person. We love people for the good we do them as well as for the good they do us. Do you think that carrying out morally good acts for someone can help lead to genuine love for that person? I'm just curious as to what you think. Cheers Livia

Subject: Livia From: Vicki To: Livia Date Posted: Wed, May 15, 2002 at 14:29:52 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yes, I do, because ultimately the best is coming out of someone, and we are experiencing our love, our efforts, our energies, our friggin life. And we are better for it. The problem seems to me, is when those good things are hijacked by underserving people. We may be washing them with our own 'love'. Ever heard the song 'Dress you up in my love?' I thought your post the other day was brilliant. I had been contemplating along those lines and you wrote about it with such clarity. My kids came home from college all abuzz about 'brainwashing'. Of course my ears picked up and said 'Tell me all you learned.' The one thing that stood out was, when people are nice, extend niceness to someone, the person on the receiving end becomes vulnerable to them. The prof said 'Look, just be nasty and rude to aggressive sales people that come to your door, because they look for politeness to exploit. Otherwise, they won't waste their time. ' I really wasnt' given the full picture of what I was loving, with Rawat. I was given an interpretation of what I thought I was. The more love and devotion I extended, the more I felt. But, really, what was I feeling? Nothing but my feelings. And service certainly seemed to be the most morally good acts a human being could possibly perform in this lifetime......

Subject: Re: Vicki From: Livia To: Vicki Date Posted: Thurs, May 16, 2002 at 04:14:00 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks for that, Vicki. Yes, you're right, it's where you direct your love that counts in the end. And I just want to say how much our post last week about your mother moved me. It was the one of the most beautiful things I think I've ever read. Thank you... With love, Livia

Subject: Psych Wars From: Gregg To: Vicki Date Posted: Wed, May 15, 2002 at 06:38:03 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Vicki, you quoted this psychological observation: ' Behaviour affects attitudes. What we do, we gradually become.' and 'When we are aware that our attitudes and actions don't coincide, we experience tension, called cognitive dissonance. To relieve this tension, according to Leon Festinger, we often bring our attitudes into line with our actions.' This is certainly part of the cult indoctrination process. Note the word 'acculturation.' It implies gradually bringing the self in line with cultural (or cult) norms. Psychologically, it can happen as you imply. You first bow down to Lord M.'s picture cuz everybody else is doing it, and you don't want to offend folks by not joining in. Just like in church or at the ball game during the national anthem. Eventually, you come around internally as well. But this psychological truism has its usefulness, too. For example, acting as if you're happy - sitting up straight, smiling, being nice to people - is one of the most effective ways to actually get happy! The internal state comes in line with outward manifestations. Silmilarly, acting as if you're already enlightened has interesting results (Ask yourself: how would I be/act right now if I were enlightenened?); perhaps a better practice than worshipping a guru orsitting on a zafu in hopes that one day, if you do it right, enlightenment will be a result. In any case, the fluidity of our psychological states makes us both ripe for growth and vulnerable to manipulation by others. And when the 'others' are united in purpose, as cultists all in love with the same smug soulsucker, one individual often doesn't have much of a chance.

Subject: Festinger From: Thorin To: Vicki Date Posted: Wed, May 15, 2002 at 02:00:07 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Vicki Thanks for that - most illuminating. re Role playing. Just last week I was on a course (time management) which included a certain amount of role playing. Always liked that but, again, I saw how easy it was to role play and take on the associated emotions and mindset that role playing induces. One role playing situation was learning how to say 'no' where we were split into two's with one person simply saying 'no' to any demands, however reasonable, the other made. Very quickly a dynamic was created that whilst patently false certainly felt very real. Whilst in the role play it was apparent how difficult it was to disassociate oneself from that dynamic. Very interesting. Which leads to another area that your post referred to that of Leon Festinger and his theory of dissonance. This subject has been much discussed on this forum and elsewhere but I think is worth restating. See above link which give a fairly good summary of the theory. Also a couple of extracts from elsewhere: Festinger observes: 'A man with a conviction is a hard man to change. Tell him you disagree and he turns away. Show him facts or figures and he questions your sources. Appeal to logic and he fails to see your point. 'We have all experienced the futility of trying to change a strong conviction, especially if the convinced person has some investment in his belief. We are familiar with the variety of ingenious defenses with which people protect their convictions, managing to keep them unscathed through the most devastating attacks. 'But man's resourcefulness goes beyond simply protecting a belief. Suppose an individual believes something with his whole heart; suppose further that he has a commitment to this belief, that he has taken irrevocable actions because of it; finally, suppose that he is presented with evidence, unequivocal and undeniable evidence, that his belief is wrong: what will happen? The individual will frequently emerge, not only unshaken, but even more convinced of the truth of his beliefs than ever before. Indeed, he may even show a new fervor about convincing and converting other people to his view also In studying this phenomena [of failed prophecies], credit must be given to Leon Festinger for his cognitive dissonance theory, as developed in his book When Prophecy Fails, originally published in 1956 and co-authored by Festinger, Henry W. Riecken and Stanley Schachter. The authors comprised a research team who conducted a study of a small cult-following of a Mrs. Marian Keech, a housewife who claimed to receive messages from aliens via automatic writing. The message of the aliens was one of a coming world cataclysm, but with the hope of surviving for the elect who listened to them through Keech and selected other mediums. What Festinger and his associates demonstrated in the end was that the failure of prophecy often has the opposite effect of what the average person might expect; the cult following often gets stronger and the members even more convinced of the truth of their actions and beliefs! This unique paradox is the focus of attention in this article, and will be later applied specifically to the [Jehovah's Witness movement]. Of particular interest in Festinger's book is how the followers of Mrs. Keech reacted to each disconfirmation (failed date). Little attempt was made to deny the failure. The strength to continue in the movement was derived, not largely from the rationalizations , but from the very energy of the group itself and its dedication to the cause. This explains why proselytizing was so successful later in reinforcing the group's sagging belief system. Festinger relates: 'But whatever explanation is made it is still by itself not sufficient. The dissonance is too important and though they may try to hide it, even from themselves, the believers still know that the prediction was false and all their preparations were in vain. The dissonance cannot be eliminated completely by denying or rationalizing the disconfirmation. But there is a way in which the remaining dissonance can be reduced. If more and more people can be persuaded that the system of belief is correct, then clearly it must, after all, be correct. Consider the extreme case: if everyone in the whole world believed something there would be no question at all as to the validity of this belief. It is for this reason that we observe the increase in proselytizing following disconfirmation. If the proselytizing proves successful, then by gathering more adherents and effectively surrounding himself with supporters, the believer reduces dissonance to the point where he can live with it.' Strike any chords anyone? Eager to see part 2 Vicki warmly, Thorin Festinger link www.geocities.com/tarob01/Festinger.html

Subject: Interesting... From: Chuck S. To: Vicki Date Posted: Wed, May 15, 2002 at 01:10:22 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: "Start small and build". Incremental. It reminds me of what gave me the creeps about the Aspirant Process. The way Maharaji was talked about in all the introductory materials, the videos for aspirants, and what was joked about as the "Frankinstein Videos", videos that were made up of snipets of other videos, and interspliced with quotes from famous philosophers, poets and writers. It all seemed warm, fuzzy and comfortable, and quite harmless. As one progresses through the videos, things change slowly. There is this teacher... the teacher is also a Master... a Master is actually more than just a teacher... it happens gradually. But if you compair one of the introductory videos to something like the Atlanta Training Video (definitely NOT for aspirants!), you see quite a jump! A premie calling himself California Premie Guy had posted several weeks ago, and said that the kind of "Brainwashing" that had been believed in and made populular in the 1950's (in movies like "The Manchurian Candidate") had been disproven, and he didn't see how premies could be brainwashed. "Brainwashing" is such a dramatic, drastic, heavy-handed word. I hate using it in terms of what happened with the premies, for the same reason CPG didn't like it. People can't be MADE to do things against their will via brainwashing. But the kind of thought-control you are discussing here is much more on the mark. It starts with very small things. It's gradual. It's SUBTLE, not heavy-handed. The person being subjected to these influences cooperates willingly, and isn't forced, but is influenced and manipulated. Thanks Vicki, I look forward to part 2.

Subject: From 'The Onion' From: Dep To: All Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 11:33:48 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Who does this remind you of? Bar-Trivia Champ Being a Real Dick About It! http://www.theonion.com/onion3816/bar-trivia_champ.html

Subject: Re: From 'The Onion' From: Jim To: Dep Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 14:17:23 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Who does this remind you of? Bar-Trivia Champ Being a Real Dick About It! http://www.theonion.com/onion3816/bar-trivia_champ.html --- I don't know, Dog. Who?

Subject: Your point? From: PatC To: Dep Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 12:22:31 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: So, let's all become mediocrities then, Dep. It's so much fairer and more egalitarian to conform to the lowest common denominator. You need to read the Gallant Gallstone.

Subject: Re: Your point? What? From: Dep To: PatC Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 13:58:15 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'Life and love are life and love, a bunch of violets is a bunch of violets, and to drag in the idea of a point is to ruin everything. Live and let live, love and let love, flower and fade, and follow the natural curve, which flows on, pointless. -- D. H. Lawrence What makes you think I posted this for anything other than a good laugh at human foibles? The Onion is just a good laugh. PatC, you need to turn off your 'meaning machine.' Mellow out!

Subject: Re: Your point? What? From: Bolly Shri To: Dep Date Posted: Wed, May 15, 2002 at 04:10:20 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Funny last time I looked The Onion seemed to be making lots of points. Could you perhaps be holding it the wrong way up.

Subject: Careful, Nige From: Jim To: Dep Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 17:32:37 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: If you keep asking Dog to take responsibility for his words he might see through the F7 trap and run off to LG or something. Don't forget, free speech is never having to say you're sorry. :)

Subject: Disingenuous, Dog.. From: Nigel To: Dep Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 17:21:18 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You sound like you are feeling a bit sheepish about your original post, Dog (unless you would care to explain). Maybe you are now covering your ass a little? You wrote: Who does this remind you of? (pointing to web-link) Now you write to Pat: What makes you think I posted this for anything other than a good laugh at human foibles? I would say your original question was a pretty good reason, and your off-hand treatment of Pat now is, to say the least, unnecessary, if not more than a little discourteous. Many of us thought you were setting some kind of riddle. Care to tell us who we should be reminded of by the Onion piece? If not, then why not? And why sound so offended by anyone questioning your motives? So who does that (Onion article) remind you of, Dep? Your question, your thread - we are all watching and listening, hardly daring to breathe...

Subject: Disrespectful, Dog From: PatC To: Nigel Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 18:32:26 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: This is not the first time he has given me the brush off.

Subject: Point taken, Dep From: PatC To: Dep Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 14:01:01 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I guess I made a mistake and you were not taking a dig at Jim. :P

Subject: Re: Point taken, Dep From: Dep To: PatC Date Posted: Wed, May 15, 2002 at 06:33:42 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I guess I made a mistake and you were not taking a dig at Jim. :P --- PatC, How dare you imply I was taking a dig at Jim. The guy in The Onion article is an arrogant bastard, who always has to be right about everything, who sees even the most trivial of disagreements as a life and death struggle, who always wants to prove he is smarter than everyone else, who always has to be the centre of attention, who doesn't understand when people get irritated at . . . hey, wait a minute, when you think of it, yeah, jeez, it does remind of Jim a bit, a lot in fact . . . Whoa! Is my face red! =)

Subject: Classic Dep!! From: Collette To: Dep Date Posted: Wed, May 15, 2002 at 19:31:56 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I have topostthis now cos I'm laughing too much to go om

Subject: Unfunny and dishonest, Dog From: PatC To: Dep Date Posted: Wed, May 15, 2002 at 10:19:50 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: This forum is filled with the writings of sincere honest and often witty people who are questioning everything, learning and teaching, engaging in heart to heart discussion and what do I find from you? A sneering, deceitful and passive-aggressive post from the Sainted socalled spiritual Dog. I'm sure that in that duplicitous brain of yours you have somehow even absolved yourself of any responsibility for your snide joke about Jim and probably now believe in your simperingly pious addle-pated way that I did indeed put that thought in your head. Meanwhile you can go on thinking of yourself as some sort of New Age mahatma. You're as crooked and dishonest as they come, Dog. You remind me of christians I have known who are constantly flaunting their saintliness but deep down are seething with misanthropic hatred and anger. Why do only sanctimonious and self-righteous idiots constantly spout religion all the time? Because they need it to tame their own misanthropy. The rest of us are quite contented to just like people and behave ethically. You're a pompous and holier-than-thou fool, Dog, and probably filled to the brim with scorn for your fellow humans and hiding behind spirituality. In short a hypocrite and lacking in any sort of self-knowledge. Examine your own conscience before making anymore passive-aggressive socalled jokes like that. Your real true sneering misanthropic self is obvious to anyone with any decency.

Subject: So this is how you want to play it? From: Jim To: Dep Date Posted: Wed, May 15, 2002 at 09:42:16 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Okay, fine, so you finally quit lying and admit that you were talking about me. In the midst of your lying, you even found a way to chastise Pat as not being 'mellow' enough when, in fact, he was right and you were, like I say, just lying. Whatever, eh? Pat sohuld probably still mellow a bit, huh? Why, if he doesn't you might even start lampooning him like this, right? Oh, sorry, Deputy Dog. What a surprise! Anyway, I've seen this entire dance before. Here are the steps: 1) New age guy pontificates this way or that. They don't always concede, even jokingly, that they're 'sermonizing' but you did. 2) Someone confronts new age guy who tries to play some sort of Ghandi-type possum or armadillo perhaps: Please, sir, don't question me as I am a gentle person lying dead to the world here in the middle of the road. No, I won't move because this is the nature of my protest against the madness. Besides, you don't even know where I am. I see you talking to my head but, believe me, I'm not there! 3) Other guy walks away in disgust. 4) New age guy gets up from the middle of the road and bravely starts shadow-boxing the other guy who, of course, is half way over the hill by now. I tried so many times to engage you in honest, fair debate and you refused, claiming, as you did last time, that there were two kinds of people in the world, the prickly ones, who went for that kind of stuff and the gooey ones, like you, who didn't. So now you return to say that the problem isn't that you're too gooey but that I was somehow unreasonable trying to talk with you at all in the first place! Shame on you, Dog. As I said before, you disgust me.

Subject: That's funny From: Marshall To: Jim Date Posted: Wed, May 15, 2002 at 11:38:15 (PDT) Email Address: none Message: That's game set and match for me... Deputy dog is beneath contempt. Oh well, life move on. I really liked the picture painted with the possum analogy. That is damn funny.

Subject: That's game set and match for me. From: Hi Marshall To: Marshall Date Posted: Wed, May 15, 2002 at 19:39:19 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: really? then you can leave the court then.and please don't come back you ugly prick

Subject: Come on! From: Dep To: Marshall Date Posted: Wed, May 15, 2002 at 15:04:57 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Don’t give me all that righteous indignation crap. That was good-natured ribbing and that’s all it was. And you guys know it. Jeez!

Subject: Get lost From: Jim To: Dep Date Posted: Wed, May 15, 2002 at 19:02:19 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Screw off, Dog.

Subject: No it wasn't good natured ribbing From: JHB To: Dep Date Posted: Wed, May 15, 2002 at 15:32:39 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dog, To any normal person that came across as nasty and vindictive. Now, maybe you didn't mean it that way, but you should recognise that it came across that way, so the honourable thing to do is apologise, and tell Jim that you were only ribbing in a 'good-natured' way. If you feel you have no need to, you will just confirm that you are still in the 'one step removed from humanity' premie mindset. John.

Subject: Re: No it wasn't good natured ribbing From: Dep To: JHB Date Posted: Wed, May 15, 2002 at 19:29:03 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: JHB, Yes it was good-natured ribbing! Re-read the article. The Bar Trivia Champ, Shawn Gause, is even kind of a lovable guy in his own way. Also look at the article in the context of The Onion, where nothing is sacred and everyone is fair game. Maybe I'm an insensitive clod or maybe you guys are too touchy. What do you say we call it a draw.

Subject: touchy, neurotic, paranoid and dishonest From: Dogbert To: Dep Date Posted: Wed, May 15, 2002 at 19:46:33 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: so why do you bother with these Pharoah size hypocrites who call you everything nasty they can think of because they are spiteful bitter juveniles who didn't get enough attention from daddy? What's your mission here Dog? - think about it before you step in their doodoo

Subject: Hey, great self-diagnosis! From: Jim To: Dogbert Date Posted: Wed, May 15, 2002 at 19:53:15 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Here you are on F7 again after you just finished telling Deb that the point is to stay away from our 'stench' for good: Hi Deb, fantastic, I quite agree with you, all one can do is let go and hope for the best for everybody, including people we can see are being fooled by the agenda of others. I hope you do get away completely from the F7 smell because the engagement has clearly affected you way too much and right on into your personal life which is really unhealthy. One must step right back away from such individuals. Your candid perceptions and humour are always welcome here and it's great to read your thoughts on meditation too. In short - It's great to have you around. Just curious, Doc, but, well, you being a Doc and all (with every bit as much legitimacy as your guru has), do you notice any mental health issues in any of your new friends?

Subject: Re: Hey, great self-diagnosis! From: Dep To: Jim Date Posted: Wed, May 15, 2002 at 20:03:33 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jim, Were you honestly hurt and insulted by my above posts, or is all this just histrionics? I think I know the answer.

Subject: Honestly? From: Jim To: Dep Date Posted: Wed, May 15, 2002 at 20:15:29 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I was definitely not hurt. That's not even in the picture. But insulted? Of course I was, Dog. Just like I'm insulted every time you tell me how much you pity me for not knowing my heart or coming from there or however you put it. Just because I'm used to your insults doesn't make them somehow okay. If you and I were two tennis players, you know, a couple of club players, nothing too serious, and I was always taking light, casual games and playing them like the U.S. Open or something, never conceding a single line call, going ballistic for every little thing, losing all sense of perspective, forgetting it was all a game, all that, then your joke would be apt. But I'm not any of those things, Dog. I'm just a former premie who thinks it's extremely interesting to finally use my brain to reassess the many spiritual myths I accepted when I was younger, the ones you still hold dear to your heart, apparently. However, as you know, many, many current cult members and weird spiritual halflings like yourself try to make that interest itself somehow shameful. You've done it a number of times. So, as far as I'm concerned, this is just more garbage from Dog. You've already put up a big, cement barrier here to anyone who'd even try to talk with you about things. So, yeah, it disgusts me when you sit atop that barricade and pelt me with the identical insults that all the cult members and other spiritual types do regularly. Tell me, where is the common ground between us such that I can consider this: The guy in The Onion article is an arrogant bastard, who always has to be right about everything, who sees even the most trivial of disagreements as a life and death struggle, who always wants to prove he is smarter than everyone else, who always has to be the centre of attention, who doesn't understand when people get irritated at . . . hey, wait a minute, when you think of it, yeah, jeez, it does remind of Jim a bit, a lot in fact . . . Whoa! Is my face red! just good-natured fun between friends?

Subject: Re: Honestly? From: Dep To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, May 16, 2002 at 07:35:29 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jim, Fact of the matter is, there are always going to be spiritual people in the world. Take a walk around Victoria and you will see churches, synagogues, mosques, and temples. Pick up a new age magazine and you will see articles on Eckankar, TM, The Landmark Forum, and Homeopathy. Go into any bookstore and you will see books on Reiki, yoga, meditation, massage therapy, astrology, dream study, Rolfing, shamanism, tarot, the I Ching, Angel Energy, spinach therapy, nude volleyball, and jogging on hot coals. I don’t go for all of this stuff, or for even most of it, but hey, it is here to stay. You find that insulting? I say get used to it. A lot of people like it. Different strokes for different folks. You say you are, 'just a former premie who thinks it's extremely interesting to finally use my brain to reassess the many spiritual myths I accepted when I was younger, the ones you still hold dear to your heart, apparently.' Well you must know by now that I’m a bit of an iconoclast and have never been big on accepting myths. Myths are concepts and concepts are 'stuff' and therefore by definition are not spiritual. The Spirit is nothing, i.e., no-thing, nothingness. I use meditation to wipe the slate clean, to delete, to attain a state of spacious relaxation. When I am truly in meditation I am a space that is empty and without meaning or content. I use meditation to turn off the 'soap opera' not to get more of it. You call me a 'weird spiritual halfling' because I like to use my head and my heart. Well, I could take that as an insult. And when I try to explain the value of Spirit you say, 'More garbage from Dog.' Well, I could take that as an insult. There is no 'cement barrier,' we just have different values based on different experiences. Knowledge is the best thing that has ever happened to me. I have had beautiful experiences in meditation where I feel connected, safe, real, smart and just plain good. More concepts about evolution would pale in comparison. Paintings of cakes do not satisfy hunger. I value the experience of meditation more than acquiring new concepts. I have enough information recorded in my mind. I like Ram Dass and Alan Watts. I like reading about Yogananda and listening to Tibetan Buddhist music and Qaw wali music. And yes, George Harrison was my favourite Beatle. You find that insulting? There are no barricades. We just have different values. You like to live in your head all the time and I don’t. I just re-read my message, and IMO, the only thing you could possibly take offence at is the word 'bastard.' The rest, believe me, was just good-natured tomfoolery in the 'spirit' of The Onion, i.e., good-natured fun between friends!

Subject: Re: Honestly? From: Jim To: Dep Date Posted: Thurs, May 16, 2002 at 12:20:08 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: If, for any reason, I actually had to talk with any of those spiritual types, as sometimes happens, if the conversation pertained in any way to our beliefs, I'd expect the same rational, mature, thoughtful and honest communication I expect from you. Usually, that's not the case and I just do my thing, while they do theirs. But this is a forum, Dog. It's all about exchanges of opinions, debate, agreement and interaction on issues relevant to the Maharaji cult where, as you know, I spent eight years of my life as a celibate monk in The Prem Rawat Foundation Order. Spirituality might not be the central issue but it sure is a secondary one, a fact perfectly reflected in your own sermons wherein you accept so many of the false assumptions we were spoon-fed in the cult as well as the notion of 'Knowledge' itself. Sure, some of the concepts can be traced to much wider sources than the printing press at Prem Nagar but it's all in there, mixed and matched like a bright, shiny, toxic stew. So, bottom line, if you post the kind of stuff you post here someone, me or someone else who kind of thinks like me, someone anyway, will challenge you on your ideas. And yes, Dog, even your ideas about how you don't have ideas. What's wrong? Can't you understand the notion of second-level or 'referential' (or whatever they call them) concepts? You say te Spirit is nothing, i.e., no-thing, nothingness' but that means nothing to me. Unless you're just throwing words out for their poetic effect, Dog, I'm asking you to assume your responsibility to communicate effectively. You're not when you say stuff like that. You're trying to talk with me, right? Well, I don't understand that preposterous sentence and no, it won't help, I don't think, to accuse me of being too 'prickly'. I suggest, rather, that you ask yourself, sincerely ask yourself, if you actually mean anything at all. Do you? What? Your aversion to science astounds me. Why aren't you preaching to us about the four humours, is what I want to know. Is it because, somehow, science snuck up and taught you that that pre-scientific concept is worthless? God, how in the world did THAT happen? You must have had your guard down for that sneak attack, huh? Maybe it happened when you were still a little kid and not yet ready to shield yourself, I guess. Your explanation please?

Subject: Re: Honestly? From: Dep To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, May 16, 2002 at 13:34:29 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jim, First off, I don't have an aversion to science. Where you got that one, I don't know. I happen to like hot running water and electricity. Have you noticed how much happier people are now, since we have cell phones? You say the Spirit is nothing, i.e., no-thing, nothingness' but that means nothing to me. Good, you are on the right track. There is meaning and there is meaningless. Nice to have both, no? When you are playing guitar and are completely lost in the gestalt, and it feels great, and a friend comes up after and says 'Jim, you were really hitting the note tonight, ' what does that mean? When you are walking in Butchart Gardens and are completely taken by the beauty of a flower, what does that mean? What does an orgasm mean or a beautiful sunset? When you are having a good time with someone and you are both laughing and it feels terrific, what does that mean? When you feel strong love for someone, what does that mean? Are you suggesting we do away with these experiences because we can't understand them rationally? Aren't these really the best times? In fact, when we try to figure them out, the very act of analysing destroys them, doesn't it? We kill to dissect. Do we have to put a thing into words for it to be of value? IMO my rational mind is a good servant but a lousy master. IMO the child is father to the man. I'm happier when I meditate and focus in on the jewel of emptiness, and I don't know why. That's my explanation. Feeling good is good enough for me.

Subject: How can anyone take you seriously? From: Jim To: Dep Date Posted: Thurs, May 16, 2002 at 15:11:59 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: First off, I don't have an aversion to science. Where you got that one, I don't know. See, this is the big windup, isn't it? Dog, one could well argue that the greatest scientific discovery of all time is evolution. But you say you're not the least bit interested. Evolution impacts in a powerfully significant way on our whole notion of who we are, why, how, all of it. But you'd rather read hindu just-so stories like the silly Alan Watt's stuff you posted last time we talked about this. Anyway, there's no talking with you. 'til the next time, I'm sure. By the way, the rest of your post was stupid. Every part of it was banal and obvious and really just plain dumb. But don't worry. I don't expect YOU to understand that.

Subject: Re: How can anyone take YOU seriously? From: Dep To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, May 16, 2002 at 18:56:43 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: First off, I don't have an aversion to science. Where you got that one, I don't know. See, this is the big windup, isn't it? Dog, one could well argue that the greatest scientific discovery of all time is evolution. But you say you're not the least bit interested. Evolution impacts in a powerfully significant way on our whole notion of who we are, why, how, all of it. But you'd rather read hindu just-so stories like the silly Alan Watt's stuff you posted last time we talked about this. Anyway, there's no talking with you. 'til the next time, I'm sure. By the way, the rest of your post was stupid. Every part of it was banal and obvious and really just plain dumb. But don't worry. I don't expect YOU to understand that. --- There will be no next time.

Subject: Re: How can anyone take YOU seriously? From: observer To: Dep Date Posted: Fri, May 17, 2002 at 10:49:08 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Most of us appreciate silence. Not this stick. He is addicted to thinking. He worships words. If accumulating facts were going to save us we would have made it years ago. All of the accumulated knowledge of humanity is small compared to what is behind it. Mr. Heller is afraid of silence. Let it go Dep. Pearls before swine.

Subject: Thanks observer. Excellent stuff! From: Dep To: observer Date Posted: Fri, May 17, 2002 at 16:33:36 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Weren't you leaving? [nt] From: Jim To: Dep Date Posted: Fri, May 17, 2002 at 16:40:30 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: Weren't you leaving? From: Dep =) To: Jim Date Posted: Sat, May 18, 2002 at 19:04:00 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I thought observer's comments were right on the money and just had to tell him/her so. Observer, are you Christina?

Subject: You're looking for 'silence' here? LOL! [nt] From: Jim To: observer Date Posted: Fri, May 17, 2002 at 10:51:52 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: You're looking for 'silence' here? LOL! From: observer To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, May 17, 2002 at 10:58:06 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: No I look for silence in meditation you obnoxious prick. LOL.

Subject: Wow! ZZZZzzzzzziiiiiiiiiiiiinnnnnnnng! From: Dep =) To: observer Date Posted: Sat, May 18, 2002 at 20:41:41 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Just saw Jim's post telling me to get lost From: Dep To: Dep Date Posted: Wed, May 15, 2002 at 19:33:36 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Why not take a vote like they do in those Survivor series.

Subject: Are you looking for a fight? From: Cynthia To: Dep Date Posted: Thurs, May 16, 2002 at 10:53:54 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dep, When I read your first post the first thing that came to mind was that you are baiting and insulting Jim. Now you're trying to weasel your way out of it. Why do you come here? I've never read much of your posts but recently you seem to just waste space. Do you have anything of substance to contribute or are you looking for a fight with Jim? Me? I'm quite tired of fighting. Have you tried AG or Peaches? I think you'd be most welcome there--LG even.

Subject: Re: Are you looking for a fight? From: Dep To: Cynthia Date Posted: Thurs, May 16, 2002 at 13:46:36 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks Cynthia, maybe I'll give AG a try. Don't seem to be doing much good here.

Subject: A simply great post of Livia's from LG From: Jim To: All Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 10:31:32 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Just amazing reading excellent posts like this. Kind of addicting like doing crosswords or something, or popping bubble-pack. It's like the power of satsang, isn't it? The power of telling the truth, disentangling knots thrown at you. So yes, it's true. I'm addicted to premie arguments because without the bubble-pack there's nothing to pop. Anyway, enough about me. THIS is an excellent post: Hi Harry, thanks for taking the trouble to write such a long and well-considered post. I appreciate it. I originally said: “But one thing neither you or I or any of us have any proof of, is that that experience came by courtesy of Maharaji.” And you replied: 'Are you saying he just happened to be in the area, happened to be the only featured speaker at his gatherings from age 8 where throngs were magnetized to him, happened to be the one that you traveled all that distance to see, happened to be the guy that you felt a powerful pull and inexplicable love for, even sitting in some dingy English basement in Marigold Square or Squatney-on-Thames or Luton? Happened to be the guy that many thousands of every kind of person imaginable will tell you they had one of the, or many of the, peak experiences of their entire lives from the mere act of walking in front of/standing next to/bowing down to/being smiled at by? Do you really believe those are all random coincidence? Were they not perhaps clues that this bloke, in fact, is deeply connected to the same experience he (or his occasionally dubious representatives) were teaching?' No, of course I didn't just happen to be in the area. But are you suggesting that if you find yourself at a meeting addressed by an Indian speaker that you then fall in love with, and have a number of out-of-this-world experiences around, that this person necessarily and actually possesses the qualities imagined? Like many other premies, I was introduced to the whole thing by an acquaintance. My first impression, and I must stress that this was my very first impression was that my acquaintance had been brainwashed, and was in the grip of a personality cult. She was very persistent, however, and I was in the middle of a psychologically shaky period, as were many of us at that time. I was 21 and was experiencing a certain amount of existential-type confusion, as was pretty common for a young liberal-minded hippy who came of age in the 60's and then saw a lot of that 60's idealism beginning to fade in the early 70's. In the end, I was affected by the utter certainty that I felt around the premies. They were mostly doing a lot of meditation and were getting very high. Knowledge indeed became a carrot that I began to long for, helped along by the fact that I'd previously been reading a lot of books on Sufism and Zen and was beginning to formulate ideas of hidden spiritual truths. In those days Knowledge was portrayed as the hidden jewel within, the Knowledge of all Knowledges and the seed that would grow within you into a beautiful flower of love. After three weeks of intensive satsang, any doubts I had entertained about Maharaji and his wealth were put on the back burner. This was the period of suspension of disbelief, called 'preparing for Knowledge.' I can now see that this is the period without which you wouldn't necessarily go on to associate the experience with Maharaji himself. And it is simplistic in the extreme to imagine that if one has peak experiences around someone, that that person is necessarily what you imagine them to be. I have a friend who is a Sai Baba devotee. He has millions of devotees in India, so the number of Maharaji's devotees in effect proves nothing. His devotees also have 'peak experiences of their lives' around him, so those experiences may well be very much more associated with the experiencers' state of mind and abilities (and need) to project, than with heir master's actual qualities. Maharaji also has a certain amount of personal charisma, especially when on stage in front of huge numbers, or when amongst people who feel they love him. As a performer myself I have noticed people projecting certain qualities on me! (Weird but true.) It happens to every performer. I have sometimes found myself in bizarre situations with members of audiences coming up to talk to me after a performance, and then not being quite 'themselves', because they are projecting certain qualities onto me that I can assure you I don't possess! I only need to say something mildly amusing and they all burst out laughing as if I've just told the most hilarious joke. It leaves you feeling quite odd, I can assure you, and if you begin to believe any of what they're projecting on to you, you're in serious trouble. Luckily my friends and family always bring me quickly down to earth by reminding me of things like it's my turn to do the washing up, thereby immediately removing any signs of creeping grandeur. I used that example to demonstrate that I've experienced projection from both sides of the coin, and can see that many people (though not all) have this need to project. Some people even believe that the Queen of England possesses a magical quality, and if you see her in person, as I have, it's easy to see the feeling close to devotion that emanates from people in her presence. But I'd lay a bet that that feeling says an awful lot more about the powers of projection in the adoring crowd than her actual qualities. Now obviously the Queen of England doesn't teach a meditation that can make you high (and more). But what if she did? What if she taught a meditation the techniques of which were available in books? And she instructed her courtiers to show people how to practise this meditation on the condition that they kept those techniques secret? And if people then got high on the meditation, what would they then feel towards the Queen? I know you could say this is a silly hypothesis, but I'm using it to try to get you to see the very real possibilities in such a scenario. You mention yourself that Maharaji was born to this. He was seen as a master from the age of 8 and has been treated accordingly ever since. He expects nothing less, and this is understandable, bearing in mind what he has lived through, and with, all his life. You say that in your own experience he has shown himself to be nothing less than what you think him to be. But this has not been the experience of everyone who has spent time close to him. Bob Mishler, Mike Dettmers, Mike Donner and many others have also spent a lot of time with him, some of them living with him, and have decided that he is most emphatically, and sadly, not what they previously thought him to be. I don't know if you have actually lived with him, but it does sound as if not everyone who has spent time with him has come to the same conclusion as yourself. So in the final analysis, your own personal experience doesn't really prove anything, except that your own personal experience of him has been good. Many people have spent time in close proximity to Sai Baba and are convinced of his divinity. Others have also spent time in close proximity to him and experienced something very different. All this possibly says more about a person's own ability and need to see goodness in the person they have chosen to be their master. You say Maharaji 'enabled me' to experience Knowledge. This is true, but only in the sense that he gave Mahatama Ashokanand permission to reveal the techniques of meditation. I received those techniques and then had an experience, but where is the evidence that Maharaji 'enabled' me to have the experience in a sense greater than what I just outlined above? Of course, I believed that it was Maharaji 'enabling' me for years, but how can any of us really know that this is true other than through belief or faith? You say to you it's like family - I can see how you can feel that especially after decades of association. I have felt that too. The familarity with Maharaji's face certainly becomes enormous, when you have seen him over and over again and looked at his picture thousands of times. Hardly surprising that it feels like family! You say: 'Which trappings, words or interpretations have I leaned on so far in telling you how I feel about this? Or do you think they're so entrenched that I'm missing them? I said: “What I'm continually getting at is that it's all in the interpretation.' Yes, I do think you are leaning on the interpretation, (although perhaps not quite as much as some premies.) I do think however, that you are so entrenched as to miss what interpretation you are leaning on, as I was for 30 years. And I do think the interpretation that the experience happens because of Maharaji in some way, is an erroneous one. That's not to say that premies don't feel intense love for Maharaji - they obviously feel they do, although I would question how much one can truly love someone one's never actually met or spend much time with. Finally, you said: 'The pure feeling is important to me, as dumb as that may sound to those who’d like it to be dumb. The warmth, love and expansiveness the feeling generates is what’s important to me.' I'm certainly not going to argue with that. Anything that can help you to feel genuine warmth, love and expansiveness is a good thing. I would point out, though, that the vitriol with which some premies here argue that Maharaji is the source of that feeling cannot help but make me wonder exactly what is going on there. You are one of the people who feels (correct me if I'm wrong) that Maharaji has enabled you to feel that feeling. We differ in our interpretation of the source, but surely the fundamental thing is that one genuinely does feel warmth, clarity and all the other positive human values. In my view, the danger arises when one becomes fixed in the idea that there is only one possible source of that. Thanks for taking the trouble to plough through all that! Wishing you all the best Livia

Subject: Yes - great post.. From: Nigel To: Jim Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 17:40:11 (PDT) Email Address: nige@redcrow.demon.co.uk Message: Premies please read. So well said, Livia.

Subject: I liked it too From: Brian Smith To: Jim Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 14:17:47 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: This is a great post, and to me it brings to mind one of the fundamental holes in logic and reasoning that was a major drip for me through the years. It is this whole business of initiation, I mean besides 4 common garden variety meditation techniques, what did we really get in that knowledge session? The techniques were just bait, more importantly we were inducted into the secret society of premiedom now as full fledged keepers of the secrets and myths and initiation rituals. This action qualified us to now go forth and speak possessed with some sort of wisdom and clarity that a few hours prior to the knowledge session we did not have. It never made sense to me back in the days of Satsang, how the day before recieving knowledge an aspirant had no right or priviledge to speak out regarding his or her experience. Now the knowledge session and Presto! as if by magic the same schmuck that entered the k session miraculously emerges with this new found command of enlightenment via the Rawat method. I remember the big deal over the persons first giving satsang, the person who yesterday could not be trusted to put together two sentences regarding thier experience all of a sudden is now heralded as the new bearer of the secret message and is now entitled to wax elouquent about the experience. So on it goes, mostly what was said was the same things that were always said before. The point is, there was nothing really different about that person other than the acceptance of him into the fold by the other members and his willingness to be accepted. Therin was a big secret that no one talked about, as every one was sworn to secrecy about the initiation. We all held the rituals up as some magic event and joined in step with the rest of the group to make sure that the myths were supported, and that we were accepted as a likeminded supporter. It reminds me of when I joined a fraternal lodge a few years back, first we were introduced and sponsored by an existing member. Then we had to study up on the rules and rituals of the lodge. Then after a time we were initiated into the lodge, given the pin the secret hand shake and allowed to wear the funny little hat and dress wierd at the meetings. And this was it, the ritual, the initiation was the be all end all to the group, the initiation itself was the big secret, and what strikes me funny is that no one got to concerned over the fact that the secrets were not all that fullfilling. It has taken me a while but it becomes more and more obvious how the emotional pull of a group can affect so much one's perception of what ever that particular group stands for and cloud the reality of what is really going on. It is about becoming a part of something, belonging, the bond with the cult is the fact that they carry this big secret, the big one about the initiation ritual that hasn't delivered up to it's promise. But no one says so, in fact they pretend as if it was actually more than what it really is. This is as true today as it was back when the mahatma's were giving the k sessions. The secret is we pretend like the initiation has some paramount significance, then we ape and mimic the words and actions of those who came before us. And the more eloquent or theatrical or vocal we become about pertetrating the myth the higher up the pillar we advance within the group or cult. No one stood up in the knowledge session I attended and said, Hey, is this all there is? Where is the rest of it? This seems very different from what I have been hearing from these premies over the last few months. Now how is what you have just shown me really going to make a real difference in my life. The rub here is that one is supposed to buy into the ultimate significance of the experience or event, and make something more out of it that what it is. To me this is inauthentic behavior and it has been the underlying motivating energy of the cult since day one. This is basically true all group's, cults, movements whatever, they typically work on the same dynamic, and before you know after you have joined in it you have formed an alliance an emotional investment into the secret and off you go maybe never to return to your senses. I have wondered why more people in the cult weren't upset by these things or why we could never talk about such issues. The price paid for being in the cult or group is that one loses the ability to think for themselves. One will don a funny little fraternal lodge hat that no one in their right mind would be seen out in everyday public life with just to be accepted. One will believe and perpetrate the secrets and myths and get emotionally entangled in the dysfuntion and lies of the cult and cult leader just to be accepted. One will compromise thier own personal integrity and bite their own tongue and not ask even when they know deep down inside some questions need to be answered. Enslavement to this kind of compromise is no freedom, no way to live.

Subject: Absolutely fabulous, Brian From: PatC To: Brian Smith Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 16:04:56 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It was many months after I exed that the obviousness of the fact that the secret initiation is the most glaring proof that it is a cult. That ''dirty little secret'' is what kept me in captivity for nearly 28 years. (Okay, I'm a slow learner - but thorough.) I really had been completely fooled into thinking that it was a secret wisdom only to be shared with the true believers. The cult apologists like Mili and Pussy are currently putting a new spin on Rev Rawat: ''He's my friend. I never believed he was god. He's always just been my best buddy,'' etc. Fine. Okay. But, then, if it isn't a cult, how come these premies don't just show their friends and family the techs? Why do aspirants have to watch videos for 5 months minmum. It's a weird Hindu cult. It's just wonderful to see you posting here, Brian. Lots of love to you.

Subject: Hi Pat From: Brian Smith To: PatC Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 22:33:15 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It is nice to start feeling half human again, I went outside today and for the first time in what seems like ages I felt the sun on my face and listened to the birds singing the sweet song of spring. I just sat out there on my deck and reveled in the sheer joy of being alive then it hit me, alive and FREE, Free from the false beliefs and concepts entangled with some wierd cult and cult leader. Yeah, Life is truly great, and there is no reason to insert a slimy conman in between me and the experience It is always good to hear from you Pat

Subject: I once had a 30/70% chance... From: PatC To: Brian Smith Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 23:58:41 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ....and I took it. I never gave death a second thought after that and just knew that I'd win even if my odds were only 30%. Life was all that mattered. I know you're taking that chance now. I should have known the way Rev Rawat talked about death as some sort of threat or bummer that he was just another preacher-man making money out of primitive superstitious. Isn't it great to lose your religion and just be free? I pictured you on your patio and wished I was there to take a swim with you.

Subject: God, so well said! From: Jim To: Brian Smith Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 14:27:28 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Brian, Hope you're feeling better and what a damn, well-said comment! The reason we could give satsang the moment we received Knowledge and not a moment before, as I understood it, was that, once we were premies, Maharaji could talk through us. No?

Subject: Re: God, so well said! From: Bolly Shri To: Jim Date Posted: Wed, May 15, 2002 at 04:25:31 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: He was supposedly talking through us. In the initial phase people still spoke in quite interesting ways about life and attributed it's highs to G. As ones involvement with the cult grew, the ability to communicate anything of any substance shrank by virtue of all thoughts having to pass throughthe washer. Ive. been thinking about this a lot in relation to people who although they were in the past lively and interesting, continued pranaming at the cheesy feet has shrunk them. The process of exing is turning out to be far more of a blast than 'practising ever was, simply because it's real.

Subject: Thanks Jim From: Brian Smith To: Jim Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 22:20:42 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I am feeling a little better but ny energy level comes and goes in spurts, so I have to use it sparingly. I was having a particularly good day made better by this post of Livia, so thanks for putting it up over here. I oontinue to read the forum regularly and sometimes when a great post like this comes along I can't resist contributing a comment. I'll give you a call in the next couple of days

Subject: Maharaji could talk through us - LOL From: PatC To: Jim Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 16:07:30 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The Borg chip had been installed.

Subject: Re: Maharaji could talk through us - LOL From: Mickey the Pharisee To: PatC Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 17:19:51 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Maharaji could talk through us? That explains why all my satsangs were about cars, blondes, and Peter Frampton!

Subject: Do you rememeber that sickly song From: Jethro To: Mickey the Pharisee Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 20:56:22 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'Please let me know that it's you coming thru.....'...... I hated that song everytine heard it.

Subject: Thanks for that chuckle, Mickey. :P [nt] From: PatC To: Mickey the Pharisee Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 18:34:13 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: That's a knee-slapper alright! From: Jim To: Mickey the Pharisee Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 17:28:47 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'm not typing, I'm just laughing into my keyboard. Peter Frampton indeed. But, seriously, that was most definitely the score, wasn't it? You meditate on the word and Maharaji talks through you? Kinda? Of course it was.

Subject: Re: That's a knee-slapper alright! From: Mickey the Pharisee To: Jim Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 17:36:22 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Well, from what I remember about satsang, it pretty much consisted of you doing pranam to that big honking picture of the Fat Kid (or maybe Peter Frampton) hanging over the fireplace mantel, falling onto a futon, exhaling a big sigh with a goofy grin on your face, closing your eyes for twenty seconds, then saying, 'This knowledge is so beautiful! Before I received Guru Maharaji's knowledge, I would get angry at any little thing, but now, I am so full of love that nothing gets me mad!' Then you might toss in some reference to some esoteric Buddhist text that you know no one in the room has read, then turn around and pranam that stupid picture again. But of course, this could not be done unless you had spent several hours in the dark with others suckers learning the secret techniques.

Subject: Re: A simply great post of Livia's from LG From: Brian To: Jim Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 12:36:56 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Life's Simply Great From: Gregg To: Jim Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 12:07:29 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Right on, Livia. Sometimes I wonder if I'd heard words like this back in the Seventies if it would have made any difference. This is really quite the crucial point. It seemed logical to assume that the various mystical experiences I had in Maharaji's presence or under his supposed omnipotent umbrella of grace were in fact due to his influence. Neither Maharaji nor his instuctors did very much to disabuse me of this notion, if you'll pardon the understatement. As your post makes clear, though, there are other perfectly reasonable explanations. The fact that many of those closest to him (Mishler, Dettmers et al) came to see him as something quite a bit less than The Superior Power in Person is certainly a key bit of evidence. It takes strange and baroque explanations involving the Dark Forces of the Mind to come up with anything but the obvious: that it is easier to imagine him as Divine from afar than it is to see him close up and still think him the Avatar of Kali Yuga. There may be a few exes who see him as an out-and-out con artist, but most of us see him as just another deluded human being, worse only in that his delusions require him to keep so many other humans deluded in order to maintain his grabby lifestyle. And if you think that he demands jets and mansions and yachts only to allow his followers the grace of being able to express gratitude...I've got some lovely oceanfront property in North Dakota to sell you. And I'll throw in a free bridge.

Subject: Definitely a ''BEST'' - brilliant From: PatC To: Jim Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 11:56:34 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'm so glad your brought that over here as it deserves a place in the archives. Hey, Livia, I had QE11 darshan. I grew up singing God Save the Queen in a Brit colony. I was blissed out for weeks after seeing the Coronation movie in 53? My favorite toy was an ashtray with the golden carriage on it. I loved Queenie. Then I went to UK in 68 and one day saw QE11 as she drove to Westminster Abbey waving from her limo and I nearly swooned eventhough by that time I was a cynical communist. Darshan really is a matter of expectations and conditioning.

Subject: Re: your comments, Jim From: Livia To: Jim Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 11:03:10 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Jim, thanks for your compliments about my LG post. I did my best but do feel I could have put it a bit more articulately - I'm ill today so not at my best, brainwise. Also, it's a bit annoying that they've got rid of the 'edit' facility over there - you can't go back and sort out those spelling mistakes and grammatical weirdities so irritating to a pedant like me. Anyway, top of the evening to you, Jim! Lots of love to you, Liv XX

Subject: Reflections on Harry From: Thorin To: Livia Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 15:33:13 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Liv Funnily enough just as I was going home I saw your post on LG and dumped it and Harry's post to the printer and read both on the tube home. I think it is fair to say that Harry writes very clearly as well. My big takeaway from both posts was one of attibution - that is where does this experience come from? This was, for me, the biggie. For close on 30 years I attributed the experience to Maharaji and which stemmed from the deep imprinting and conditioning that took place in the period prior to receiving K and in the months after. An almost Pavlovian response. God knows how long the reversal of the Pavlovian response will take - 1999 was the starting gate for me and still counting. From the vantage point of having been around in premiedom for all of these years and now, I honestly see that the experience comes from my own expectations, grounding and inate human characteristic. To externalise that experience and believe that the experience is 'The Gift of The Master' creates a dynamic that, I believe, is ultimately destructive as it goes against the grain of our makeup. I am glad that Harry would appear to have made a great success in incorporating a healthy outlook to life and avoiding the flat-lining effect that many premies experience. Also I have no doubt that Maharaji, in close personal contact, (and I have had a few, not many)is witty, someone special and is someone that one can admire even taking into account the obvious projections that occur. I have met many people that have similar attributes (like your experience of QEII) but overiding this supposed 'specialness' of Maharaji is clear evidence of a lack of morals and ethics (the 14 epo points)on his part. In a way I am grateful to Maharaji for starting something which, frankly, I would not have liked to miss but see now that he continues to be affected by severe delusional thinking, but of a magnitude that I can't begin to comprehend. It is a great shame really, the destruction of the 70's dream was always going to be painful. But dream it always was. Like the Sai Baba dream. Waking up from that dream to the real reality actually, I find, is far far more enriching, more fullfilling and has a greater sense of purpose, with a deeper sense of clarity. warmly, Thorin, late at nite and feeling maudlin

Subject: See Anth's 'Belief & Experience' thread [nt] From: Dep To: Livia Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 11:51:14 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: You did just fine... From: Cynthia To: Livia Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 11:18:50 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Livia, I respect your courage for even posting over there. I've just about stopped because I get spammed and I don't like spam. I noticed your post to Deborah, too. Another good one. I'm envious of your clear and articulate writing style. Sometimes I can write well and lately I feel like every sentence is a struggle. You have a way of seeing both perspectives. I enjoy that, too, Liv. Well, I was going to start a new thread, but I may as well dust this off and link it up again. This is from the reFocus anti-cult help website. This one's called Characteristics of a Distructive Cult. I'm bringing this up again because charisma played and continues to play a huge role in getting people hooked into the cult and keeping them there. I was going to link to the book Snapping by Flo Conway but I've done that too many times already. ***(Jim have you read it yet, and if so, what do you think?) Thanks again, Livia, for your clear voice. Love, Cynthia, where it's going to snow and that's not usual or okay on May 14th!!!:( P.S. Proof I'm in the clouds is that I've edited this about five times due to typos and other errors! Characteristics of a Destructive Cult www.refocus.org/charcult.html

Subject: Howdy From: Jim To: Cynthia Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 11:54:01 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Cynth, You know, I never did read 'Snapping' although I've known about it and have maybe even skimmed through it somewhere along the line. Sometimes, I hate to say it, but some of the cult books just seem kind of obvious, especially for we who actually underwent the whole cult experience. But I hasten to add that 'Snapping' was always reccommended, by people whose opinion I respect, such that I bet it well might be worth reading. Should I? As for your writing, well, Cynth, while it's true that Livia's clear as a bell, so are you in your own special way. It's like we're all different colours of the rainbow or flowers in the garden. Wouldn't life be boring if we were all the same? Every snowflake is unique. Not a breath moves without His will. It's the person inside that really matters, not how you look or how much money you have or how nice you are even. It doesn't matter if you're a good person or a bad person, or what kind of personality or character you have. It's the person inside that counts. Even if, say, you got Alzhimer's and lost your mind completely, what really counts is your heart. And, seeing as all hearts are one there isn't really anything to worry about anyway, now is there? Life is a song and I'm gonna sing it. Peach? :)

Subject: Re: Howdy? From: Dep To: Jim Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 14:27:04 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Cynth, You know, I never did read 'Snapping' although I've known about it and have maybe even skimmed through it somewhere along the line. Sometimes, I hate to say it, but some of the cult books just seem kind of obvious, especially for we who actually underwent the whole cult experience. But I hasten to add that 'Snapping' was always reccommended, by people whose opinion I respect, such that I bet it well might be worth reading. Should I? As for your writing, well, Cynth, while it's true that Livia's clear as a bell, so are you in your own special way. It's like we're all different colours of the rainbow or flowers in the garden. Wouldn't life be boring if we were all the same? Every snowflake is unique. Not a breath moves without His will. It's the person inside that really matters, not how you look or how much money you have or how nice you are even. It doesn't matter if you're a good person or a bad person, or what kind of personality or character you have. It's the person inside that counts. Even if, say, you got Alzhimer's and lost your mind completely, what really counts is your heart. And, seeing as all hearts are one there isn't really anything to worry about anyway, now is there? Life is a song and I'm gonna sing it. Peach? :) --- Hi Cynthia, I wouldn't worry too much about Jim's reply. What he really meant to say is: 'Wouldn’t it be funny if we didn't have our own special way, and we were all the same? Wouldn’t that be exciting? Being all the same and all. And wouldn’t it be funny if it was the person outside that really mattered. And everything depended on appearances and how much money you had, and everyone could be a total jerk. And wouldn’t it be funny if the person you are inside had nothing to do with your being a good person or a bad person, or what kind of personality or character you have. We could even kill people with Alzheimer’s because they don’t count. What really counts is your mind. And seeing as all minds are different, there really is a lot to worry about, isn’t there? Life is a brutal struggle and I'm gonna defeat you. Peach?' Just trying to help out.

Subject: I'm not worried about Jim, Dep... From: Cynthia To: Dep Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 15:11:49 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hello Deputy Dog, Jim didn't offend me. I understand his humor. It's not easy in this format, but not to worry, Dog. Jim and I know and understand eachother enough to know the difference between insult and humour. There were a couple of inside jokes you wouldn't get, too, so you be well, and I'm doing just fine. Cynthia

Subject: you're weird, dog From: gerry To: Dep Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 14:36:35 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I don't know quite what to make of you. I might have to start charging you by the word...

Subject: Lighten up, Dog From: Jim To: Dep Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 14:31:45 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You know that advice you gave when you mislead Pat by saying that you weren't really referring to anyone or thing in particular with your 'The Onion' post above? You said: What makes you think I posted this for anything other than a good laugh at human foibles? The Onion is just a good laugh. PatC, you need to turn off your 'meaning machine.' Mellow out! Don't be such a flaming hypocrite.

Subject: MISLED? Dep told an outright lie. [nt] From: PatC To: Jim Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 16:36:13 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Hm, not quite From: Jim To: PatC Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 16:53:14 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: First he asked who the satirical article about the trivia bully reminded anyone of (implying, of course, that he had someone in mind). Then, you asked him what his point was at which point he replied: What makes you think I posted this for anything other than a good laugh at human foibles? The Onion is just a good laugh. PatC, you need to turn off your 'meaning machine.' Mellow out! So he never really answered you although he's obviously playing the duck. God, we've been seeing a lot of this around here. Is it duck season or something? DOG -- who were you referring to and why?

Subject: Fair enough - it was slap and duck [nt] From: PatC To: Jim Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 18:36:31 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: Howdy From: Cynthia To: Jim Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 12:04:25 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Jim, Ya, I Peach, all right. Hey, I've been meaning to apologize for the 'stop, don't stop' post on AG. In my own gullible style I didn't think about how it would look. Tell Laurie I say hi!:):) You got one thing in your post to me wrong: it's within inside Jim, can't you remember anything? :)

Subject: Re: a must-read link, Cynthia From: Livia To: Cynthia Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 11:48:53 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Cynthia, we're online simultaneously again I see! That was a great link - the parallels are startling. I especially liked the 'need of the young for simple explanations' part. In fact all of it was brilliant, though I suppose if we'd read it back then we'd have thought it was deluded nonsense. Although it would be interesting to show it to a current premie and ask them for their response, I expect they'd be unable to see the parallels, any more than one can see the negative sides to the character of someone one's infatuated with. BTW Cynthia, for heaven's sake don't have any doubts about the quality of your writing. I have never known you to be anything less than wonderfully clear and articulate, and I always love reading your posts. You're a force to be reckoned with, and you'd better believe it! Lots of love to you, Liv XX

Subject: Re: a must-read link, Cynthia From: Cynthia To: Livia Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 12:22:47 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Livia, I'm not really worried about my writing. It's hit or miss with me. I noticed you got a reply 'over there.' All I can do is advise you to be careful. I like to keep as many of the anti-cult websites bookmarked. I see them here or find them online then I can just retrieve them as they seem appropriate to a conversation here. I've read a lot of them and for some people who haven't it can be a help. Rick Ross's website is quite good. It's up-to-date and has a lot of links as well as info on specific groups and cults. Love to you too, Cynthia

Subject: Living perfect master lives in Nigeria! From: Thorin To: All Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 07:45:20 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Think this may have come up before. There is a Nigerian fellow who styles himself Guru Maharaj Ji and is the Living Perfect Master. He went to India in the 70's and, from what I remember, actually took Knowledge from one of the Mahatmas of you-know-who. Anyway he went back to Nigeria, presumably fully realized Knowledge and declared himself Satguru. Since then he has built a 'loyal' following in Nigeria but has on occasion run foul of the law in Nigeria (such as it is!). Catch up with his latest exploits below. Actually this reminds me I seem to remember there was a premie living in Bristol (UK) who also set himself up as a Guru (revealing the Rawat techniques etc) and which required some Elan Vital honchos (Glen?) visting the guy in Bristol and giving him a 'talk'. Anyone remember this episode? Late 70's/ early 80's? Here is the Nigerian stuff. Travails of the Living Perfect Master. 1,105 words 6 May 2002 03:25 pm Africa News Service English (c) Distributed via COMTEX News. Lagos, May 06, 2002 (This Day/All Africa Global Media via COMTEX) - A worried Guru Maharaj ji laments attempts to destroy him Satguru Maharaj ji, the self-professed Living Perfect Master, is not new to controversies. Since he started his One Love Family in Iju, a surburb of Lagos, in 1984, he and the movement have been through one controversy or the other. Reasons for that are not far-fetched. Maharaj ji, an indigene of Oyo State and a staff of the Nigeria Airways untll he travelld to india in the late 1970s, returned and declared himself 'God' to the amazement of all, including his peers. He had declared that he was God, claiming that he had taken the form of body and flesh to dwell among men. According to him, he has come to give knowledge to those thirsting for it. In giving this knowledge, he attempts to change the status quo. For instance, the Holy Bible teaches that God's abode is heaven. And that all prayers, requests and praises were made to him alone. But Guru's teachings are to the contrary. To his followers, God is no longer in heaven but in the Satguru Maharaj Ji Village, Kilometre 10, Ibadan-Lagos Expressway, Ibadan. The village, to them, is the highest spiritual Centre of the Universe. Impliedly, God is a Nigerian, he lives among them. This explains, why his followers don't waste time praying to the 'unseen God'. They direct all their prayers to Satguru Maharaj ji, the 'God' they can see and feel. Many, especially, Christians, see this as blasphemy. In many Churches, prayers are incomplete without the 'binding and casting of guru, his agents' and followers. But he has remained undeterred. The State has not spared him either. When General Musa Bamaiyi (Rtd), assumed the leadership of the National Drug Law Enforcement Agency (NDLEA) during the Abacha era, security operatives became regular guests at the Maharaj Ji village. He had a rough time in the hands of Bamaiyi's men, who severally accused him of dealing in hard drugs, among others. 'It is on the record of the Nigerian authorities, including security agents, NDLEA, the Courts and others, that Satguru Maharaj Ji has been investigated since 1989 and cleared of all such dubious, criminal, junk and trumped-up charges. Among them is the celebrated and cooked-up murder case, which lasted from July 6, 1999, to July 25, 2000, when I was discharged and acquitted by an Ikeja High Court, Lagos State', he recalled. Of course, some of his travails are traceable to repentant followers, who allegedly flee the village only to rebel against some of the activities of the religious sect. 'Somebody did it before and was jailed because he said that somebody sent him to do that', Maharaj ji said, not giving the name of the person. At a media briefing in the village last week Tuesday, he, specifically tried to debunk allegations reportedly made by one Mr. Steve Alachenu, a former devotee and member of the One Love Family. Alachenu, who was quoted in an exclusive interview in the New Treasure Magazine, captioned, 'My untold Story in Guru's Den', naratted how his friend, Segun, from Ogbomoso, Oyo State, facilitated his membership of the religious sect. He also revealed the dehumanising and harrowing process of initiation, which, he claimed always end in the death of some of them. 'In my own time, we were 73 in number, 33 males, 40 females. I think, about four of them were pregnant. During the process, all of us were completely naked-both males and females, young and old. No pant, no underwear, no bra, everybody were completely naked', Alachenu allegedly told the New Treasure in its special anniversary edition of April 29, 2002. 'Yes, people died during the fire-house initiation. We were 73 in number but at the end of the initiation, we were remaining 68, two men died while one lady died. Out of the four pregnant women, two died. In most cases, when somebody dies there, they cut open his chest, remove the heart, the liver and kidney. They use it to prepare concoction and people drink it during the initiations and you will not know what you are drinking', Alachenu continued. A bitter Maharajji, dismissing the claims last Tuesday, said since members of the One Love Family don' t eat meat, the allegation was untrue. 'We don't eat meat in this place. We are vegetarians, so, his claims are baseless', he said. But from close observation of him on Tuesday, as baseless and untrue these allegations may seem to Satguru, not even the allegation of the killing of a Ghanaian, which led to his incarceration in Ikoyi prison, for several months, appears to have disturbed him as the Alachenu's allegation. 'I am deeply crying in my heart', he told journalists at the press conference. He described Alachenu as a faceless liar hired to cause disaffection among members of the public and the One Love Family. The recent onslaught on his person and his group, he said, was the handiwork of those he described as forces of darkness in the religious groups, serving as stooges of Western imperialists, particularly the American CIA and their European counterparts, who he argued, were displeased with the progress Nigeria was making. While claiming that the One Love Family does not know Alachenu, he wondered why he failed to give Segun's surname and waited for six years after his purported death before opening up on it. Beyond Alachenu and the New Treasure's story, Maharajji said he has changed the lives of so many people, including, politicians, businessmen, kings and other citizens in Nigeria and beyond. 'It is our belief that the publishers of the damned edition of the New Treasure are paid agents of some faceless secret organisations, like the American CIA and others like them, masquerading as religious and political groups in Nigeria, in their calculated misadventure to rob Nigerians, Africans and indeed, the human race of this special grace', he said. He called on the Inpector-General of police, Mr. Tarfa Balogun, Lagos and Benue States Commissioners of Police to, as a matter of urgency, and in the interest of fair play and justice, arrest the acting editor of the New Treasure, Sonde Abbah, the reporter, Ganiyu Olowu, who purportedly wrote the story, and Mr. Steve Alachenu and conduct a thorough investigation into the matter to get to the root of it all. by Chris Anucha Copyright This Day. Distributed by All Africa Global Media(AllAfrica.com)

Subject: His followers turned up here 3/4 years ago From: hamzen To: Thorin Date Posted: Wed, May 15, 2002 at 01:59:21 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: A couple of them were here about 98/9. It blew their minds because he'd based his whole set-up on gmj. But what I found fascinating was their descriptions of their darshan and meditation experiences. They were very strong, but were under the illusion that only followers of THEIR guru maharaji could experience the grace and bliss at the level they did. Ha ha, we human beings are certainly bloody naive.

Subject: Do a forum archive search.. From: Nigel To: hamzen Date Posted: Wed, May 15, 2002 at 16:19:57 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The achive search engine doesn't seem to work as well as it used to - it seems to have lost contact with most of the Larkin Poems - and it's sad there doesn't appear to be any links to it from EPO. But it is useful nonetheless. It's address is: http://www.geocities.com/forumarchives1/search.htm The ex-followers of the Nigerian M-style con-merchant were Portugese. The guy's name was 'Ivor'. Truly astonishing posts in terms of the levels of conditioning and subservience he and his girlfriend (or sister - can't remember) endured for years, believing their own godbod was the cat's pyjamas and all was in the interests of their own spiritual well-being, just as western premies believe much the same. And, yes, the darshan and meditation stuff was an exact parallel with experiences most of us have known ('for sure'). Archive search engine www.geocities.com/forumarchives1/search.htm

Subject: Hell, archive engine don't work at all.. From: Nigel To: Nigel Date Posted: Wed, May 15, 2002 at 16:29:47 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Archive searches for both 'Ivor' and 'Nigeria' drew a blank.

Subject: Naivity From: Thorin To: hamzen Date Posted: Wed, May 15, 2002 at 02:30:08 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: hamzen Thanks for that. You said: Ha ha, we human beings are certainly bloody naive Too true, and I count myself very much in that mould. Still making the break. Thing is of course how much other naivity we have? Political liberalism perhaps? No, lets not go down that road! I have a friend who is very much part of some Jesus Christ evangelicalism movement (can't remember which) that takes a very literal interpretation of the bible. It is astonishing how much she believes, for example, in creatism (sp?) and the inferiority of females. Perhaps I ought to send her a copy of The Blind Watchmaker as Jim did for DepDog? :) warmly, Thorin

Subject: In which case best of luck mate From: hamzen To: Thorin Date Posted: Wed, May 15, 2002 at 15:03:21 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Being around any of that bollocks, and the always passive/aggressive garbage that goes with it, gives me the willies now. But all power to ya elbow mate, personally I'm no longer prepared to be the good samaritan, well not in that area anyway.

Subject: Re: Living perfect master lives in Nigeria! From: Dave Punshon To: Thorin Date Posted: Wed, May 15, 2002 at 00:56:13 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Another Guru Asshole (NT)

Subject: The guy in Bristol was called From: Jethro To: Thorin Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 08:20:00 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: The guy in Bristol was called From: Thorin To: Jethro Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 09:55:40 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jethro Your post contained no text. In any event in response to my above post someone rang me and filled me in with some details on the guy from Bristol. His name was Rupert and apparently received quite a following as he presented himself as properly understanding what Rawat was all about. At one point, I understand, he tried to storm the residence at Reigate as he felt that DLM/Elan Vital and various individuals were somehow preventing the true premies having access to Maharaji. (little did he realise that it was Maharaji himself that did not want access to the ordinary premies!). Even though Rupert saw himself as somehow superior to other premies (and hence his followers) he considered Maharaji a 'superior person'. Rupert spent some time camped out in Wales with his merry band of followers. Wales was (still is?) a favourite haunt of premies as it apparently contains a significant degree of mystical qualities (ley lines etc). Anyway it all ended sadly with Rupert being hauled up on some legal charge or another. So, all in all, those times were ripe for a great amount of delusional and cultish thinking where anybody could set themselves up as Guru's and whatnot. No doubt prompted by the nihilistic attitude prevalenat within DLM/EV/GMJ. This nihilistic attitude still continues imo. Another example that EV had to content with was some of the German pwks embracing Gurdjieff and hi-jacking of satsang programs. Thorin

Subject: We're a mystical lot in Wales From: Kelly To: Thorin Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 13:45:49 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Thorin and Jethro, It is a very misty country! and I'm sure there are hundreds of premies, post premies, former premies and ex-premies lurking in the hills. In the days when I was a semi-active Welsh premie, we would hold video events for the three of us! occasionally we would make contact with another real live premie who would appear from nowhere and just as mysteriously disappear back into the mist, never to be seen again! It's a wild and wonderful country full of mystics, misfits and eccentrics and, of course, the Welsh. Even Jethro nearly moved here a little while ago, we were going to be neighbours, what happenned? was it something I said? Thorin, I must thank you for your excellent definition of entropy in the cult scenario, in a thread way down below. I'm a very sporadic visitor to the forum at the moment and did not manage to get online for some time after your post. Anyway thanks, I enjoyed it. Kelly

Subject: Re: We're a mystical lot in Wales From: Thorin To: Kelly Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 14:49:09 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dear Kelly You're a Welsh inhabitant huh? I always had you down as a west country lass. Oh well! So how is the ex-premie community going in Wales? I hear it is going from strength to strength. You Welsh people were always so flaky. lol :) No seriously - never doubt the purity of the master and all that stuff. bests, Thorin - after a few glasses of vino

Subject: Don't know what happened From: Jethro To: Thorin Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 10:46:10 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yes I knew Rupert in Bristol before he did whatever he did. He was a nice guy, as I remember, who was also an excellent cook. I also remember at some programs where security people were really upset because 'Rupert' was outside. I thought it really funny at the time. I also heard that Rupert used to give darshan and often collapse. No idea if this happenedor not. cheers Jethro

Subject: Re: Don't know what happened From: PatD To: Jethro Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 12:19:36 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Thorin & Jethro I came across this guy once, & posted about how he'd kindly offered to have me thrown out of a 1st floor window by his 10 member harem. How he became deranged I have no idea. I believe he was an economic journalist before k. I heard several stories about his exploits,all completely outrageous(the exploits that is,I believe the story tellers),but I won't repeat them in public just in case he's come back to his senses,& is feeling in a mood for litigation. Who drew up the bongo list & what did you have to do to get on it? There's an interesting little cult backwater.

Subject: Re: Don't know what happened From: Thorin To: PatD Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 14:42:13 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi PatD Harem? What are you suggesting?! Yes I know what you mean about having moods of litigation. Being hauled up 'for some charge or another' seems to be a pointer. :) What did you do to get threatened of getting thrown out of 1st floor window? Very interesting. Yeah I certainly knew a lot of bongo's - some of which were honchos in the mission. I made a lot of effort not getting on such lists - I simply hate being a number. warmly, Thorin

Subject: Re: Don't know what happened From: PatD To: Thorin Date Posted: Wed, May 15, 2002 at 06:04:10 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: What did you do to get threatened of getting thrown out of 1st floor window? Nothing...that's the point,the guy was certifiable. I'd gone to Bristol to visit someone else, & ended up waiting for him to show in Rupert's company. He was pleasant to start with & then asked me if I could see the green light emanating from GMJ's eyes in the picture on the wall. When I said no,the atmosphere began to change. His girls were mainly teenagers,sitting in silence around the large room we were in,listening to our conversation,but not joining in.Fetching cups of tea,changing the records etc,but never off their own bat,always at his command.The only men in the room he & I.I managed to get out of there before he got round to offering me one,a nasty little mindfuck he pulled on someone else I knew. A touch of the Mansons;you bet. A dash of Rasputin;no doubt about it. The big joke of course was that I was in a cult myself at the time but didn't realise.

Subject: Re: Don't know what happened From: Thorin To: PatD Date Posted: Wed, May 15, 2002 at 06:45:49 (PDT) Email Address: thorinlon@yahoo.co.uk Message: PatD Bewildering story indeed about Rupert. Glad you got away in one piece. You raise an interesting point about cults within cults. Was speaking with an old friend (he left the mission about 20 years ago) and he was talking about the various factions that existed within the mission and in particular factions that organised themselves around various members of the 'Family' (eg BBJ, Raja Ji, Mata Ji etc) and how competitive these factions were against each other. Each faction, it seems, had their own dynamic (sheesh I seem to be using that word often these days!)and belief systems. Also, it seems, there were other factions centered around some 'high up' Western honchos. All these factions went pear shaped when the family breakup occurred what with M marrying Marolyn. An interesting history. Would love to throw some more light on these times - particularly the various Indian events in the period following the DLM/EV split. Maybe I should send an email to Prem Rawat and ask him for clarification - to set the record straight as it were. I am sure that the he would like the pwks to hear his side of the story. :) PatD, as we on the subject of history, do you have any details on what happened at the Portsmouth ashram in the late 70's/early 80's which required various EV honchos getting down there fast to sort out a big mess? Maybe just rumours and nothing of substance. warmly, Thorin

Subject: Freakout in Portsmouth From: PatD To: Thorin Date Posted: Wed, May 15, 2002 at 12:18:41 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Rings a very faint bell,but that's all.

Subject: PPR opening sequence! From: Bryn To: All Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 06:19:19 (EDT) Email Address: none Message: This is probably old hat, but Ive only just seen the opening graphics. I presume Prem took advice from real people before he okayed it, but to me, an unbeliever, it reads hilariously as follows. M in the middle, looking a lot like Alfred E. Neuman, of Mad magazine fame, fixed grin staring outwards at we know not what. What's he smiling at? Attention is drawn left and then right to 'sensitive' pictures of people looking appealingly At M. These pictures are very 'human' and mix into each other giving the effect that they are somehow 'live' and very active. M, meanwhile, continues to stare resolutely ahead, inanely grinning. The sequence builds up rhythmically. The question the sequence progressively arouses in me is: 'Well when is the frozen grinning man going to respond to all this human attention coming from either side of him?' And the answer comes: he never does! He totally ignores the lot of them. They fade away leaving him alone with his cheshire cat grin. The message seems to be: no matter how much human attention is focused on the grinning man, he couldn't give a monkeys, and they can all push off as far as he is concerned. The fool on the hill or what? Was this the intention I ask myself? I laughed, and I know many others who would too. Love Bryn

Subject: Re: PPR opening sequence! From: Jim To: Bryn Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 10:55:27 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: That's quite a nice take on that, Bryn. No, I don't think anyone else has said anything like it. Thanks.

Subject: Want to see something funny? From: Jim To: All Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 00:56:30 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Over in the monkey cage, Deborah, in a spiralling decent of denial and / or madness, accused me of lying about her threat to have Pat killed. So I asked a simple question: who do you believe, her or me? I'll tell you right now, I'm not lying. I could explain more, more, more but that's the bottom line. Anyway, for anyone wanting to see the monkeys go nuts, it's all over there. Hilarious? Pathetic? Hell, I don't know. Do you? :)

Subject: Jim, problem here From: Tonette To: Jim Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 09:35:01 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: My take. No, I'm not going over to Life's Grate. Makes me ill to tell you the truth. Why you transcend there is your game. Frankly, I think you get alot of laughs for yourself and it is probably more than that as well. Whatever. I don't/am not asking for an explanation. What I originally wanted to ask was, have you ever seen the movie 'Fatal Attraction?' If not, rent it and take a gander. In short, it's apparent to me from what Debra has posted here to you on the forum, in the not too distant past, and her current gyrational dance on LG towards you she's in love with you. But it's a problem because you are dealing with a somewhat unbalanced and obviously vindicitve mind. She's quite angry. Not only with M but with alot of things. You for starters. You might have made a mistake in befriending her. She's quite fond of you, that much is obvious. The fact that she can't have you infuriates her. In her mind, you lead her on. It was Deborah's expectation that after you met her (at your place may I add) and chatting away on the forum with clever posts, you would fall in love with her and dump Laurie. This might become a problem for you, I don't know, I sure hope not. I guess it already has, judging from what you started this thread with. I warn my son all the time about women such as Deborah. Bill Clinton was smart, he never gave Monica the chance to become impregnated although that was exactly what she was after. Deborah is of that mind set. She's got to have you, you owe her because you lead her on and since you're not cooperating, well she's justified in doing whatever to make your life hell. Good luck Jim. If you remember or see the movie, Fatal Attraction, pay close attention to the character Glenn Close portrays. That, my dear, is what I think you have gotten yourself into. Hell, you might be after me if you were a 40 something, college student, waitng to make your way and you met me; an attractive, successful, accessable, educated, strong, not married woman who extended a kindness. In other words, you're a good catch Jim and time is running out for her. All's fair in love and war. There's more to that saying that meets the mind. Just my take from reading here for awhile and the ganders I've taken at Life's Fucking Wonderful because of Maharaji. I hope I'm dead wrong. I personally don't have anything against Deborah. Never had a hard word with her but........always thought there was something not quite right with her. Fondly, Tonette I'm going to show up at your door, in the middle of the night, naked, and demand that you rape me! And dammit if you don't play out my fantasy, there will be hell to pay! Know what I mean?

Subject: You just do that From: Jim To: Tonette Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 16:41:40 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'm going to show up at your door, in the middle of the night, naked, and demand that you rape me! And I, Tonette, must now report you to the police. Of course, they're going to want pictures. RELEVANT pictures, sweetie. Come now. :) Anyway, I don't know about your theory but I do suspect that Deb's going to be taking the high road and not stooping so low as to mix it up with us cult-members too much more. For as she most astutely noted with respect to Livia, Indoctrination and Loyalty 'Transference' are powerful tools. Unforutunately Livia is getting the answers to some things and falling squarely into the Heller's self-serving trap. She doesn't understand that with her realizations from the forum (which are overdue) come with a hitch. All one has to do is look at how hard J, P, and G work to hide their dirty laundry. Livia made herself quite clear that she is not ready to be displaced from her new nest. Let them feed her a few more poison worms and she'll leave or throw up. Either way, I think her hypocritical posts at F-VII speak volumes about her intentions. It's just better to avoid as much contact with the exes as possible. They can't see that their agenda is just that, 'their agenda'. And the fact that they stoop so low is a good reason not to have anything to do with them. That's not normal behaviour for any reasonable person under any conditions. cheers, deborah, who is so glad she has the intellectual tools to see through crap Good for her that she saw through our dirty tricks sooner rather than later. I'm impressed.

Subject: That's alot of psycho babble From: Tonette To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, May 17, 2002 at 18:04:06 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Big words that mean nothing. 'Indoctrination and Loyalty 'Transference' are powerful tools.' But it does make her look smart, eh? And kinda defuses the real message written by Deborah, what she really wants to say: 'Let them feed her a few more poison worms and she'll leave or throw up. Either way, I think her hypocritical posts at F-VII speak volumes about her intentions' That's a very venomous statement about Livia. And here you have Deborah, the psychiatrist, who is, unfortunately becoming much like the company she is keeping, ie, Catweasel, Mili, DR, saying what is normal in her book. 'That's not normal behaviour for any reasonable person under any conditions.' Normal behavior? Gad! How would she know? Now that is funny. But let us not forget, and she does remind us and her fellow 'Life's Just Great Because of Prem' friends: 'deborah, who is so glad she has the intellectual tools to see through crap' To be able to see thru crap, it seems to me you have to be up to your eyeballs in it. Yeah, there's lots of crap allright. She should know. Ah gee, I wish her well anyway. Just another human grasping for reality still. And she spends alot of time and effort disclaiming her very concentrated effort here as a former forum 7. Her many posts. I hope she figures it out someday. She seems quite bothered. I still maintain she has a major crush on you Jim. Or did. Now she's just pissed off. Warmly Tonette Sorry I didn't answer sooner, have been extremely busy.

Subject: Wanted: intellectual tools From: Livia To: Jim Date Posted: Wed, May 15, 2002 at 11:46:41 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Well, I can't help wishing I had Deborah's intellectual tools. Then I could debate as rationally and calmly as her! Then I'd be able to see what a bunch of evil-minded Jezebels you all are here, and how deluded I have become after just a few months of participating here! Where can I get these intellectual tools? Is there a course I can do? Desperately, Livia

Subject: You had the course already! From: Tonette To: Livia Date Posted: Fri, May 17, 2002 at 18:13:40 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: But alas were not to make the intellectual leap into the newest revisionism of M's, I mean Prem's world. (sorry for the lapse in his title, I am still studying the booklet) No, we only take the people with the finest intellectual tools. In fact, can you turn water into wine? Do you believe in an immaculate conception? Can pigs fly? Can you 'stay in touch' without really touching? Huh? Hey, you just may not have the imagination, errr, I mean intellectual tools needed. Sorry. The web you are able to spin is just not up to standards. Tonette

Subject: Re: Wanted: intellectual tools From: Cynthia To: Livia Date Posted: Wed, May 15, 2002 at 12:18:30 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Livia, I really don't think you want those tools:) I do catch your drift. It's amazing to see logic and reason fly out the window in a gust of hot air. Love, Cynthia

Subject: Indoctrination and Loyalty 'Transference' From: PatC To: Jim Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 18:39:52 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: And I just loved the way that Mili nodded and drooled in agreement. Talk about having a HUGE BLIND SPOT. Chronic irony deficiency.

Subject: Tell-tale sign of something-or-other From: Jim To: PatC Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 20:09:23 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: What's most telling about this is that Deborah as recently as a couple of days ago was complimenting Livia on her fair mind and clear head. But the moment she doesn't hear what she wants to hear, she forgets all that and dismisses Livia's opinion as worthless. Now we've all had people we thought were on side with us break ranks, disagree unexpectedly, all of that. But healthy people try to see why that is and discuss the differences, try to make some sense of the changing picture without radically ignoring everything they themselves have said or done just before. People who can't do that have some sort of problem. Anyway, more pitiable than anything else, isn't it?

Subject: But this takes the cake From: PatC To: Jim Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 20:32:52 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: She sucks up to Andrew (Roupell's latest fake persona) thus: I fail to see a problem here. Everyone knew that remember 'holy name' was the third technique. To me, it is extremely evident that always remember 'Holy Name' was a confusion for some. But how could it be. To practice meditation was to know that the third technique aka 'Holy Name' was just the beauty and rich experience of the pulse that runs through your being. Why wouldn't anyone not want to feel that and surrender to that river all day long. When I am in my mind aka ego, I am tense and unaware how perfect and all knowing that universal flow is. When I allow myself to remember 'Holy Name' aka third technique (which I never disqualified for good reasons), the things I need to survive along with surplus comes to me. This is so remedial I am beside myself. I understand some of the issues of the exes but that question/statement is kind of remedial. It is clearly evident that many exes were premies who maintained all kinds of ideas and concepts that so many of us would never entertain. Why is that the exes decide to ask these pertinent questions after bashing M & K for so many years. And as for Gerry, he went to Millenium and decided it wasn't for him. Doesn't it make sense that he would be the FA of the ex-premie forum? Andrew, many of the exes clearly have issues that never did have anything to do with M or K. That's a fact. cheers, deborah, who strongly believes F-VII is a hate and anger site is for individual cults On her way back to the lotus feet? I hope so. I can't think of a more fitting fate - for both. It makes less sense than anything I've heard LOTU say.

Subject: Yes, all the way ...but one thing From: Jim To: PatC Date Posted: Wed, May 15, 2002 at 11:35:15 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: How do you know Andrew is really Roupell? Just because he's anonymicified? Hm, maybe. Anyway, yeah, Deb, or Selene, or anyone for that matter, could easily get back in if that's what they wanted. All they have to do is learn to agree that questioning Maharaji is the province of their enemies, thus they won't do it. What's left then? A possible group of friends (like Quiet, for instance) and an ever-chanted mantra This'll show them, this'll show them, this'll show them.... Anyway, it's so pathetic for these guys now. They've decamped from the one place where, assholes like me here or not, there was at least the chance of some sane, adult conversastion about all this M cult stuff. Now, they're over on LG and CD even starts locking their threads when they start dissing us too much which is really all they want to do anyway! (Truth be told, CD only locks the threads when he and his fellow cult members get flustered. Short of that, he doesn't give a damn and has tolerated big, fat real death threats with his bland, impotent indifference). So, if these guys can't bitch about what they really want to on LG, they're forced to endure completely crazy cult foolishness like this should-have-been-a-self-parody-too-bad-it-wasn't post by sfjim: it is that i'm here on this planet and i have no idea where i came from or how i got here....Prem talks about 'SAVING the day','saving the moment' a lot recently. i didn't understand what the fuck he was talking about. it just dawned on me. SAVING as in computer talk. hit the fucking SAVE button or you lose everything. i had a really shitty experience with my first old Mac that was given to me by a friend. i was writing my autobiography and the thing blew and ate the last 25 pages, which represented several weeks work. i was so pissed, i still don't have another computer. just this silly webtv. but it does do the remedial stuff like email and most internet......so maybe what he was saying was PRACTICE is like hitting the SAVE BUTTON. actually, when you're practicing, you're probably not doing a lot of weird shit that's going to come back and bite you. so you're getting saved from that, too. i'm sitting here waiting for that stupid DINOTOPIA to come back on. i was all excited about it from the intros i'd seen. the art/costumes/staging is excellent. unfortunatly the story is only a little bit better than Mr. Speilberg's nonsense. there are a few threads of thought in it. i think i'll listen to Led Zeppelin while it's on. I'm telling you, once the capital letters go, you've got a real problem. :) But watching these guys try to share quarters with Cat and Roupell and the like is bizarre indeed. What's next? Are Michael Nouri and Sheldon Jaffe going to join in? -- oh Jim, you really did it with that one! LOL at own joke!!!!!!!!!

Subject: Re: Yes, all the way ...but one thing From: PatC To: Jim Date Posted: Wed, May 15, 2002 at 12:04:22 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Well, I don't know that Andrew is Roupell for sure as I can't see behind the scenes on LG but it might as well be since he seems constitute half the posters there with his multiple aliases. His writing style is quite idiosyncratic - painfully and self-consciously and irritatingly so. I foresee a time when Selene or even Deb will argue with one of the spin doctors - not toe the cult line completely - and all hell will break loose, unless of course these people are so desperate to belong to a group that they will sacrifice all remaining honesty. As for sfjim - well, it's very sad but unfortunately I don't have the inclination to communicate with him having tried for a long time in the real world. He has serious mental disabilities for which he has been on welfare for 30 years and has only worked for three weeks in his his entire life of 50 years. If he weren't the Maharaji cult, he'd be in another one. As Scott said: for some people the M cult is not a bad thing. In sfjim's case he could have easily joined Manson as he has that mentality. Weird. Our latest defectors are in their appropriate milieu finally. Very sad.

Subject: Re: Jim, problem here From: Livia To: Tonette Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 11:16:16 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: God, Tonette, you're going to get some utterly rampant denials of what you just suggested above! Because if it's not true, Deborah will be incensed that you could suggest such a thing, and if there's a grain of truth in it, she'll probably be in total denial, which will also lead to her being utterly incensed. The result will be an even angrier Deborah. Oh well, don't say I didn't warn you! Love to you, Liv XX

Subject: Of course, I would expect no less From: Tonette To: Livia Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 11:34:50 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: And yes, she'll deny my gist on the matter presented. I suppose I could dig thru the archives and post some of her dialogue to Jim but that would be cheap and too time consuming. It's there if anyone really cares to go fishing. But my post is not at Life's Fucking Wonderful and Isn't Maharaji Great. Those who need to reply to it can rant away. I doubt if I'll give much concern. My post was to Jim, for Jim, my opinion. Just that. My opinion. To Jim. Everyone else can go to hell. I don't mean you, please I don't. What I'm trying to say is, I don't care if people disagree with me. Save your typing fingers please! Type away if you must but don't waste too much energy. Fondly, Tonette

Subject: Re: Of course, I would expect no less From: Cynthia To: Tonette Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 11:40:34 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Tonette, I think you're on to something. But Livia is right, that puts you smack on the top of her hate list. Btw, I know you don't care if you're on the shitlist. I'm an honorary member. I'm trying to ignore them, actually... How are you? Love, Cynthia

Subject: Re: Want to see something funny? From: Cynthia To: Jim Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 08:38:47 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jim, I just read through the locked thread. I agree with Pat, don't take the bait. After her weeks of irrational shouting, naming calling, scheming and planning (with a small break) Deborah is at it again, trying to endear anyone to her regardless of what's true. The reason I never post to Deborah or respond to her since the first great 'blow-up' is because I do believe you. I think she could be dangerous. I don't understand what she means by saying things like: I have to document everything posted because now I have to file a lawsuit! She has others looking through the forum archives searching for god knows what. But the bottom line is she's set a precedent by making a death threat, not online, but to you, a lawyer, and on the phone. You know her in person--if she's that volatile, do you want to engage? I'm not writing this to smear her. It's impossible to reason with her. I've tried to reason with her, as have many others from F7. She's been successful in forming a faction and in so doing has taken all of those former posters out of F7. That suits me quite well. Up to that point there was a lot of infighting here and I'm glad it's gone. As far as the death threat is concerned I believe you because I have witnessed how far off the deep end Deborah can go with her confused perception of herself and the world (including the cyberworld). She holds grudges and courts revenge. Me? I'm staying the fuck away from her. Where the rubber meets the road, you have two witnesses of your phone conversation. Can you and Pat get restraining orders against her? I would consider it. It's frightening to know she lives near you and not so far away from Pat, too. Jim, trying to reason with the LG and AG folks is fruitless (about just about anything) and they probably love it when you show up there--they get a free battering ram. That's where I am at this point. Only concerned for you, Pat, and anyone else who's life has been threatened. Love, Cynthia

Subject: I just read thru From: Jethro To: Jim Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 06:12:23 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: THAT (now closed) thread on LG. I seems that you have a devotee in Mili who suggests that everyone say 'fuck you' to you every morning. It seems you have supereceeded practice of the within-inside techniques. If you're lucky maybe he'll send you a video of himself, catcoward, rancid-chip-oil roupell all lined up saying 'fuck you'.....you know like GuruMaharaji...I mean Maharaji....eeer I mean Prem did in Penang. regards Jethro

Subject: Don't take the bait, please From: PatC To: Jim Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 03:18:36 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Remember the kind of person who killed Selena, the popstar. I saw a documentary interviewing her tonight and she looks and sounds completely sane until she says things like: ''But Selena wanted that. That's what she expected from me. She asked for it. She made me do it.'' All said with a cheery smile and a twinkle in her eye. Quite chilling. It might be time to cool it, ignore it and hope that it finds someone else to stalk. And keep a paper trail such as a copy of Catweasel's post (''Her only mistake was not threatening the same for you.'') Well, according to Scott, at least they won't use nerve gas on subways while they vent their spleen on the net. :C)

Subject: Is IRONY lost on you? From: Lose Something?;) To: PatC Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 10:22:13 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Didn't like it Thelma? Oh well here it is again. You cannot be serious. Get this thing above Grade School histrionics!

Subject: Irony is subtle, Catweasel From: PatC To: Lose Something?;) Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 10:50:11 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It would be lost on you. You're more given to threatening to beat Jim's brains out with a baseball bat or, as in this case, wishing that Deb had threatened to have Jim killed rather than me. Boy, am I glad that she's finally found her real milieu among you deranged cultweasels of LG. You are welcome to each other.

Subject: Yes and Subtle is in the eye of the beholder. From: Catweasel To: PatC Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 13:48:39 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Come on Pat.That's just ()) spin. You know darn well no-one is in imminent danger or was actually (read genuinely) threatened. What you are doing here could be viewed as dangerous and inciting. But it's not.It's just pathetic and very Queenie Thelma.

Subject: Ah! The spin doctor is in From: PatC To: Catweasel Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 14:09:47 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I understand, Pussy. You didn't mean to threaten to smash Jim's brains out with a baseball bat and Deb didn't mean to say that she would have me killed. That's MUCH better. Now we can all heave a sigh of relief. Obviously, you're no real threat and just have a big ugly mean mouth but Deb does live near Jim and is definitely um er well.....warped? (I get this picture of Glen Close leaping up after supposedly being dispatched - not once but several times.) Of course it suits you that you now have another person on board at LG who hates F7 but don't let it blind you to some very obvious insanity or do you enjoy being King of Hearts over on Life is a Great Big Loony Bin?

Subject: Geez, hello Deborah or Selene . From: Tonette To: Lose Something?;) Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 09:41:12 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You know, you can use your real name. No harm in that, eh? Most trolls are stupid and have nothing to say, that is exactly what your post makes you look like. Tonette

Subject: Re: Geez, hello Deborah or Selene . From: Catweasel To: Tonette Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 13:50:10 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Pat knew who it was from.And it was mean't for him. Ciao

Subject: Rep. Peter King on accountability.... From: Jim S. To: All Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 00:40:47 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: As I watched House Rep. Peter King (a moderate Republican from NY)on Hardball tonight, he talked about the current pedophile scandals in the Catholic Church, and the outrage amongst rank and file Catholics in his district. He recounted how so many people he knew grew up Catholic and had complete faith in the Church and the system it represented... Although they knew that none of the priests were perfect, they totally believed that they were holy, and holier than they were. King talked of the outrage that people are now feeling as they realize that so many of these guys were not preacticing what they preached. While they condemned others for even thinking about certain things, they themselves were performing incredible crimes against little kids. The complete hypocrisy of their actions is what has so many people upset. Their outrage is compounded with the recent stand of the church to lash out at critics and play hardball with them, rather than level with them and talk honestly about the situation. King predicted that if the church did not take a different tack, make amends, and behave like the institution it is supposed to be, that it will suffer irreperable harm, and will never fully recover... I couldn't help but see the parallels with m and the people around him..... For me, it was a similar thing....the absolute lies and hypocrisies coming from m, with no intention of talking honestly about any of it, that pushed me over the edge... However, it was his lying and hypocritical behavior that finally allowed me to wake up, leave and get free.... One of my main questions is how long can premies see the handwriting on the wall and pretend that it's just not there? And how long can m pretend that it's not there as well, or blame it all on others? This stuff eventually sinks in...

Subject: That's a hard question From: Tonette To: Jim S. Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 11:11:21 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You know I've really wondered about this aspect of Premies and M. At what point does the blatent facts, actions, history of M and EV finally sink in? Why is it so hard to put two and two together? Regardless of whether a premie knows about Jagdeo, the drinking, the whoring, the money, ect., just the revisionism should set any sane's person's wheels spinning! We are not talking about bad, stupid, losers here. Well some, but the premies I know are not total outcasts. They still function, work, love. They don't turn a blind eye to everything but Maharaji and yet they still believe. I think that's it, so ingrained, like saying sugar's sweet. A belief. If you hear something over and over and over again you will consider, at least explore and woe to those that subscribe, take ownership. A theory, a hope, a belief then occupies a prominent place in your heart and mind. One invests much time and energy in making it so, in cementing and giving crediabilty to the effort. How can you ever let go? Morals, ethics, logic and feeling. Which of the four previous subjective components has the most influence? I would say feelings. Feelings is by far the worst choice but generally that is how we like to function given the chance. I've seen it first hand and here on the forum. Premies state, 'To hell with you belligerant ex's, the consquences of what knowledge has done to many people, I don't care if Maharaji is nor will I consider him a cancerous growth on my soul, I don't care if he lies, I don't care if Knowledge is just 4 warmed-over Meditation techniques, it works for me. So shut up! I feel something so therefore I give it validity.' Feelings. Some thinking okay but don't go too far. Just the experience. That's what real. That's what I am. Spiritual. Energy. And I am here for 'the experience.' It's a 100% bullshit belief but so many people fall prey to it. Not just in Maharaji's world but many other similar cults and well established ones too. Catholics are similar, shit they believe the Pope is a 'holy man,' divine. But at least the Catholics do some good works like feeding children and such, even if they are actively recruiting members while doing so and their PAM's like to bugger little boys. Good grief, it's a variation on a theme here. Little boys or little girls. What is this cult's dirty little secret? There's nothing unemotional about Prem and his 'self knowledge.' Now who has a fighting chance? Emotion or Logic? Warmly, Tonette

Subject: I Know Nuuuthinnnggg! From: Scott T. To: Tonette Date Posted: Wed, May 15, 2002 at 11:10:15 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Tonette: Regardless of whether a premie knows about Jagdeo, the drinking, the whoring, the money, ect., just the revisionism should set any sane's person's wheels spinning! Cult thinking simulates psychosis and borderline disorder in individuals who are otherwise not mentally ill. The primary mechanism is projection. One projects the discomfort and reality of uncertainty onto elements in the 'outside' society, reserving for yourself and other members of the cult those feelings and perceptions of certainty and of self that are acceptable and desirable. This is complicated by the fact that at least some of the negativity and trickery really *is* 'out there.' There has to be some truth to the claims made by the cult or they'd never even be entertained. As usual the problem ultimately lies in the fact that we don't tend to pay much attention to proportionality. That's also one of the reasons why conspiracy theories are so popular. Same psychological mechanism. We don't know how this business with the Catholic Church will ultimately shake out, but thank God (or fate) that the age of nativism and the anti-catholicism of the 'Know Nothings' is past. The Know Nothing Party... now there was a paranoid political movement, if there ever was one. --Scott

Subject: Depends on the addiction level I think From: hamzen To: Jim S. Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 03:44:10 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: If you see all human behaviour as having a major chemical component reinforced by behaviour and ideology patterns then it depends on the level of addiction. As someone who got a HUGE amount from practicing the meditation I know the dread and despair I went through when I finally had to call it a day about excusing him any longer. When you consider that I first started mistrusting him on the tiniest level 14 years before, and for something as serios as psycho bullying on the deepest guilt level, and I never ever experienced him as god in a bod, although I was open for the possibility, well.... Certainly my ex knows all the facts, but earth will freeze over before she budges. She just saw me as trying to stop her belief, full stop, and she was not gonna allow that to happen, full stop. If you met her you'd think she was one of the most sensitive and caring people you could meet, but decades of being in this mindset means she's cut off from people, cut off from events, in a little world of her own. In one call we had I asked her how she thought she'd feel if it had been her own daughter who had been abused and she had gone through what jagdeo's victims had, she was not sure, but I knew from her reaction that she would find a way round it. I reckon the last few diehards have made so many internal switcjhes now they will go to their graves not budging, as I'm certain will big boy. Those krishna and arjuna battle stories have a lot to answer for.

Subject: I agre about the addiction level... From: Jim S. To: hamzen Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 10:25:15 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: In talking to other long term premies about the letters I wrote about a year and a half ago, the conclusion I came to is this: If someone still needs mr. rawat in their life, or at least thinks they do, absolutely nothing will budge them. In fact, for many premies I know, they look at these revelations as either not true, or if they are true, that they are a test for their faith in the master and the path. Fear of the unknown is also a great motivating factor. On the other hand, if someone is ready to leave mr. rawat and the perfect master belief system behind, its a great catalyst for their growth and subsequent exit from the trap. I know for myself, that as soon as I began to question and leave, life offered me every opportunity on every level imaginable, alternatives to the rawat mind fuck.... Today I look back, and can't imagine how I bought into so much of what I did, for so long... It takes awhile for a lot of this to sink in....I saw epo 2 years before I seriously gave it a second look....the first time it seemed like 'premie pornography' and I skimmmed by it....the second time I really took it all in, and credit it as the major reason I now am free of it....

Subject: Sorry, but is she, well, retarded? From: Jim To: All Date Posted: Mon, May 13, 2002 at 21:01:30 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: From ELK: Tales from Amaroo Ivete Belfort Mattos From Sao Paolo, Brazil Last year, during Mothers' day I was at a Miami Event. Maharaji congratulated all mothers at the event. He told us that there is no Mothers' Day in India but that each day is unique and every day is our day. I was there feeling this life expressed in love and care. Now, one year latter it is Mothers' Day again and I remember that he mentioned the importance of being a mother in Amaroo. In both situations I was touched. I am mother of two boys and my mother passed away. With Knowledge in my life, I do not feel that it is an obligation and hard responsibility. I experience the pleasure, the opportunity to be alive and share this joy with my kids. Happy Mothers' Day! It was Mothers' Day in North and South America, yesterday 12 May - and not everywhere else in the world

Subject: A really good post from Will From: Jim To: All Date Posted: Mon, May 13, 2002 at 11:03:56 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I saw this on LG where Cat, Roupell, Deb, etc. are giving Dave the high five for realizing that the war is over (or, better still, there never really was a war. 'How can you be an ex anything? It's like calling yourself an ex-human being or something...'). Anyway, it's kind of funny. There's Selene asking if she can make herself at home there and there's Mili inviting her in for some -- get this -- good conversation. Anyone who's ever tried to talk with Mili like I have for five years now knows how rich that is. Anyway, amidst it all, is this wonderful post from Will: There was one answer to my basic question that I would have accepted, been forced to accept: If Prem Rawat and his students enjoy 'that feeling' when they get together, more power to them. Let them enjoy it more and more, and learn from it more and more. There is no 'need' for the master so much as there is a 'joy' in being with him. My basic question, by the way, was why the need for a guru/master/satguru/teacher? When you read Shri Hans' satsang, over at Manav Dharam, the need for satguru is easily understood. The goal is to transcend the finite human consciousness as the master has done. It is a long, tortuous endeavor. It is the ultimate victory after eons of lifetimes. It's serious business. The need for life-long dedication to the living master is obvious. But I just don't understand anymore. Really I don't. I understand Sat Pal because he follows in Shri Hans' steps fairly closely. But Prem Rawat has evolved so much away from his father's teaching, that I wonder what remains and what doesn't and I wonder what the premies are trying to accomplish in their lives. Do you all want final transcendence or not? Prem Rawat never posts his father's complete satsangs on his website like Sat Pal does, so what are we to think? Where is Prem Rawat when you need him? I guess it is somewhat understandable that he remain vague, and lightly inviting, when he is interviewed for Leaders Magazine. But couldn't he switch to straight and blunt, on a forum such as this? Couldn't he answer his ex-premies? The vagueness of it all is just so frustrating. And we're never going to get any answers from you premies, because, let's face it, you're not the master and you'll go along with whatever Prem Rawat says. So I propose that Prem Rawat break his tradition of silence toward his critics and come forward to straighten this whole mess out. Let vagueness be damned.

Subject: The joy of Simplicity... From: Andrea Eriksonn To: Jim Date Posted: Mon, May 13, 2002 at 15:56:05 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Will asks a simple question: 'Where is Prem Rawat when you need him?' And the answer, Dear One, is quite simple. HE is on Dish Network TV broadcasts! You can find out more about those from His website at: Visions International, which also has sponsorship links to help support His work. Prem has made it all so easy, He's so thoughtful. As for Shri Hans, he's as dead as a door post my Dear, he doesn't count anymore, so forget him. The whole point of having a living Master of the time, is so you don't have to listen to dead ones (just as well the old bugger croaked, he was kinda heavy, and not much fun anyway). As for Sat Pal, forget him, he's a fake, and dull as dishwater, too. And for what you call your most basic question: '...why the need for a guru/master/satguru/teacher?' Jeezus, you really HAVE been back-sliding, haven't you? You need a guru/Master/teacher to just give you the answers, so you can stop all asking all these friggin QUESTIONS. If you'd taken His advice and just SHUT UP and been LISTENING, you'd know that. Sheesh! Andrea Eriksonn :) A happy, care-free Thoroughly Modern PWK, who understands that questions in the World of Knowledge are really quite RUDE, because you were supposed to have gotten rid of all of those in the Aspirant Process, before you even recieved The Master's Gift. :|

Subject: The joy of Simplicity..yeah, you tell 'em, sis!. From: Andy Daverdson To: Andrea Eriksonn Date Posted: Mon, May 13, 2002 at 21:05:23 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hey, my name's Andy Daverdson, and it's like, so far out,you know man, cos you see it's like when I'm with the Perfect Master, it's just like this feeling takes over, and it's all too much, and the bliss keeps comin on, and it's like I'm melting at the feet of the Master, and playing my music, and it's so far out that one time my Master even heard this shriek come through the speakers in India, and it was like totally ear-splitting, and even then he kept his cool and just said something like I need a new pair of ears, and I'm grocking that that's just so totally, totally cool, because he's the living satguru and he could have thrown that premie who caused that shriek to happen, like he could have thrown him through the 3 worlds, like his dad shri Hans could have also, but he didn't, because he's the living embodiement of truth, consciousness and bliss...and compassion too.... Anyway, like my sis will tell ya, it's all totally an experience thats really, really high and ya just gotta experience it for yourself to know it..... It's like, just shut up and groove on those videos of my master, and forget about those stories about cognac and monica and dope and frampton and dig the thirst, man, cos it's really cool to be thirsty and enjoy the thirst too....(well, maybe don't totally throw out frampton, cos if our lord digs frampton and a doobie, like who am I to tell you not to, like know what I mean?) Andy Daverdson (like, just dig it anyway you can and get high with the satguru, ok?)

Subject: ANDY! What did I tell you about sycronization? From: Andrea Eriksonn To: Andy Daverdson Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 00:18:36 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Andy, get off the internet, NOW. I mean it Andy, DON'T MAKE ME COME OVER THERE!!! :| :| :| :| :| :| :| :| :| :| :| :| :| :| :| :| :| :| :| :| :|

Subject: Hey, dat's coo' From: Jim To: Andrea Eriksonn Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 00:20:44 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Not as coo' as David Anders... I mean, Andy Daverdson himself. But it'd be coo', man. You be coo' too.

Subject: That's been his schtick forever From: Ellie To: Andrea Eriksonn Date Posted: Mon, May 13, 2002 at 19:17:03 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Vagueness is this conman's schtick. He'll never answer a question straight. If you ask him if he is thirsty he tries to come up with some sort of koan. 'When one is thirsty...one is ready for this self-knowledge' or some such bullshit. He's just basically full of shit. Hi Glenn. How's that cold sore?

Subject: *** Best Of *** Andrea From: Dickie Pwickie To: Andrea Eriksonn Date Posted: Mon, May 13, 2002 at 17:27:29 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thank Prem that you have the clarity, courage and patience to try to get through to this batch of burnt cookies that just never got it. When I read your incredibly and totally TPRF-approved words, I get a special feeling in That Place. That Feeling just keeps growing bigger, especially when I recall accidentally seeing you and Pauline Premie being synchronized in the shower at Amaroo. Just can't get that picture out of my mind but it's My Experience so I'm sticking with it. By the way, are you wearing those vintage Holi yoga whites today? You look so good in those. Dickie Pwickie - a complete pwk and proud of it since 1972

Subject: Actually... From: Scott T. To: Jim Date Posted: Mon, May 13, 2002 at 14:32:46 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: not a bad idea. Where is Prem Rawat when you need him? I guess it is somewhat understandable that he remain vague, and lightly inviting, when he is interviewed for Leaders Magazine. But couldn't he switch to straight and blunt, on a forum such as this? Couldn't he answer his ex-premies? The vagueness of it all is just so frustrating. And we're never going to get any answers from you premies, because, let's face it, you're not the master and you'll go along with whatever Prem Rawat says. So I propose that Prem Rawat break his tradition of silence toward his critics and come forward to straighten this whole mess out. Let vagueness be damned. Would straight and blunt be preferrable? I wrote such a letter to Maharaji demanding clarification back in 1981. Some PAM wrote a response to the effect that Maharaji was just providing a sort of 'medication' for seasickness, so that I wouldn't feel ill all the time and could function more effectively. Gosh, I was disappointed that he wasn't the Messiah, but thank the Lord for small favors: Shoko Asahara, who began the Aum Shinriko cult after having been rejected from University because of poor eyesight, hearing, and other health problems, purchased some land near Mt. Fuji in 1989. An admirer of Hitler he ordered the construction of a computer controlled chemical factory designed to produce cyanide gas, mustard gas, and sarin, a nerve gas that had been developed by the Nazis shortly after WWII. He also began exploring biological warfare, especially Botulism. When strong odors began emanating from the factory cult representatives spread the fiction that the US and Japanese military were spraying poison gas on them. In 1990 he ran for political office in Japan. The campaign had no program or issues, and consisted almost entirely of dewy-eyed, white-robed followers chanting: 'Sho-ko, Sho-ko, As-a-ha-ra,' over and over. One highly publicized and attractive follower charmed female TV viewers by declaring that Asahara had given him the strength to stop masturbating. He reacted to the inevitable defeat by taking himself and his followers to a remote island in Okinawa in preparation for what he believed would be a nuclear attack on Japan by the US. In 1992 Asahara published a manifesto entitled Declaring Myself the Christ, and including various prophecies concerning what he viewed to be his apocalyptic mission. By doing this he abandoned what had been a relatively mild quasi-Buddhist approach to religious doctrine. He also expanded his movement into Russia, where he was depicted as a 'stripped, beaten Christ wearing a crown of thorns and hanging from a cross--and also bearing a striking resemblance to the prophet-monk Rasputin.' In 1992 a team of Aum microbiologists travelled to Zaire, ostensibly to help curb an outbreak of Ebola, but in reality to collect a strain to be used for germ warfare. They had also acquired a formula for synthesizing the deadly venom of the green mamba snake. As Asahara's health continued to decline he projected his own impending personal apocalypse onto the world. He continued to make apocalyptic predicions about a nuclear holocaust started by a US attack on Japan, and purchased land in Australia where he and his followers could wait out the inevitable end, and then repopulate the planet with a society dedicated to the principles of Aum. The attack on the Tokyo subway, organized as an 'object lesson' for the world could have easily been far more deadly than it was, had the delivery system not been so crude or so poorly implemented. In the words of Robert Robbins and Jerrold Post: 'The Aum Supreme Truth represents a transition between passive millennarians, who withdraw in despair to await the millennium (as exemplified by the People's Temple and the Branch Davidians), and religious warriors, who are not in a state of despair but fight against the unbelievers for their version of God's kingdom.' It occurs to me, in light of some of these observations, that one ought to engage the followers of such cults in dialogue whenever possible... whatever that takes, because marginalizing them produces some extremely perverse results. Thus, constructing stark emotional divisions between followers and non-followers, which the cult tends to reinforce, produces either paranoid passive millennarists or defensive aggression, both of which are an order of magnitude more difficult to deal with than what we have here. The fact that sites like LG exist, in spite of the fact that their theme is cult friendly and resistant to a rationalistic disassembly of the cult, is something of a victory. They've 'caught the bug' of discussion. If one were to see further signs of real paranoid behavior on the part of cult members, regardless of how 'righteous' the rational analysis of the cult and its practices is, that would be a *bad* sign... a *very bad* sign. If anyone is holding onto the possibility that every single member of the cult can be convinced that it's a bogus sham I suggest that you're being unrealistic. Given the ambiguities of human cognition and perception, and the inadequacies of rationality, such a consenses would defy human nature. Personally, I'm glad Maharaji was not willing to commit himself to a messianic role in the long run. Yes it was horribly and obviously opportunistic of him to suggest such a role in the early days, and no doubt an enormous embarrassment now. But thank the Lord (or human nature) for small victories. Still, it's a good idea to ask the question, even if you already know the answer. --Scott

Subject: Good point, Scott ... but From: Jim To: Scott T. Date Posted: Mon, May 13, 2002 at 18:45:52 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Good post, Scott. Thanks for explaining Asahara so succinctly. I never really understood that story so well. But while I get your point about the generally positive nature of there being a forum like LG at all, don't forget, it's so small, and involves so few premies, it's pretty well negligible. Will it grow into something more significant, even on the terms you describe? Maybe. Maybe not.

Subject: Except LG is a big fat fake From: PatC To: Jim Date Posted: Mon, May 13, 2002 at 20:52:25 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The cacophony of the multi-alias anonymous cultweasels on LG drowns out any sincerity - as happened with Isabella. They are actively working to prevent any serious discussion. All that's left on LG are the nuts and plants.

Subject: Re: Except LG is a big fat fake From: Scott T. To: PatC Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 01:02:41 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Pat: I don't know why you'd expect such a group to be very democratic or rational. The point is that they have their *own* forum that's seeking to engage the enemy, even with some fairly tranparent tricks. Alot better than a paranoid reaction, where things get more than just irrational... they get outright crazy and dangerous. The habit of argumentation is one of the 'neurocharms' that the philosopher Frederick Turner points out as uniquely human. When people give up on argumentation then fear has just accomplished something like self-amputation of a vital appendage. I take your and Jim's point that I'm probably overestimating the effect, if not the significance, of that forum. --Scott

Subject: that's nice, Scott From: PatC To: Scott T. Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 03:06:19 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You cheered me up a bit. You mean, if the LG nuts weren't making inane jokes and throwing around sophomoric insults, they might be using nerve gas on subways? That's a relief. But seriously, I hope you aren't underestimating LG's significance although it sounds a bit theoretical to me. :P

Subject: Re: that's nice, Scott From: Scott T. To: PatC Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 08:03:17 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: They've proved they're capable of some paranoid actions, like CAC. There isn't a history of aggression though, and they don't have an apacalyptic ideology (at least one that developed beyond the 'rotten vegetables' stage) so they're pretty far from taking such actions. Besides, if things don't work out here they can always just retreat to India. So, I guess there are reasons why this particular cult is not likely to became aggressive even if they don't chat on LG. I'm just saying that it's a safety valve of some sort. It's a place where they could at least conceivably 'stumble onto' the truth, whereas that ironic situation isn't very likely in a 'satsang' type of environment. --Scott

Subject: Re: that's really nice, Scott From: PatC To: Scott T. Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 16:32:13 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I have seldom posted on LG. I've chatted to those premies I know and a few exes. It never struck me as a place for fruitful discussion. When exes aren't over there arguing with premies, the joint is boring and sometimes has no posts for weeks on end. I see that Roupell's latest fake persona, Andrew S, even started a thread addressed to JHB probably out of boredom talking to himself. Yes, he posts under so many aliases over on LG to make it look like there are lots of premies. Actually I would be thrilled to see a real premie forum and would stay off it and urge all exes to stay away (in order to reduce enmity and encourage open discussion) but I doubt if it will ever happen. The cult is based on a secret intitiation. That simple fact of a secret really does twist the mind and warp one's sense of honesty and openness. Having a secret like that is like having a permanent gag. Leading a double life and keeping secrets from one's family and friends causes a severe malfunctioning of one's moral compass.

Subject: Re: that's really nice, Scott From: Scott T. To: PatC Date Posted: Wed, May 15, 2002 at 11:17:31 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Pat: The cult is based on a secret intitiation. Well, not any longer... How Lance Armstrong keeps winning the mountain stages of the TdF, now *that's* a mystery. (The answer is that he's a phenomenal athlete with extraordinary technique who trains like a maniac, and only participates in a few stage races every year so he doesn't burn himself out. Well, that's *my* theory.) --Scott

Subject: Re: Messianic confusion From: Scott T. To: Livia Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 01:04:56 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Livia: Good ideas there, but to pick up on your last point, has Maharaji really dropped the Messianic role? No one seems to quite know, least of all the premies. They now laugh at the fact we all believed he was the Lord back in the 70's, but they don't think he's an ordinary human being either, do they? And Maharaji recently described himself as the 'filament in the light bulb' or something, whatever that's supposed to be. Not an ordinary human being in his own estimation for sure! I think of him as the 'hair of the dog' actually. --Scott

Subject: Neither Fire nor Ice From: Gregg To: Scott T. Date Posted: Mon, May 13, 2002 at 15:14:11 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yes, I'm also just as happy that Rawat's cult is not ending in a blazing inferno or whatnot. Messianic notions dwindling away, he and his followers seem to be just as happy cohabiting in the hot (well, tepid) tub of Amaroo together. Fine, do your thing, whatever floats your boat, etc. etc. No harm in continuing our soapbox rantings here on Forum Seven, though. Keeping interested parties informed as to the reality behind the New Ageish scrim is a worthy pursuit. Maybe not as important as feeding the hungry or saving the Earth, but a few people have been encouraged to think about all this, to their betterment. And I get to play mental hooky from work and practice writing.

Subject: Asahara, Jones, Koresh, Applewhite From: PatC To: Scott T. Date Posted: Mon, May 13, 2002 at 15:10:43 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Of course Rev Rawat does not rank up there with Asahara, Jones, Koresh or Applewhite (Heaven's Gate) but he is still listed on Rick Ross' website. The problem with LG though is that it is not a sincere forum for discussion by cult members as you seem to think. There are only two sincere (if deluded) people there and I know them both as they live in SF. The rest are game-playing multiple alias diehard cult apologists and currently two or three disgruntled former exes sucking up to Catweasel. Engaging there is a waste of time. Rick Ross www.rickross.com/

Subject: Re: Asahara, Jones, Koresh, Applewhite From: Livia To: PatC Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 11:29:58 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Are the two sincere (if deluded people) you're referring to sfjim and Cosmic Traveller? I must say those two do seem to have a different quality to most of the rest in that they don't seem to have any problems interracting warmly and unconfrontationally with people whose views differ from their own. Livia

Subject: Yes, Livia From: PatC To: Livia Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 12:08:14 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Sorry to hear that you're under the weather. Get well soon. CT and sfjim live here and are the only two premies who still talk to me. The fact that they are rebellious Hindu hippies means that they are ostracised by the local church-ladies who find them embarassingly ''pre-revisionist.'' My god, they like saris, incense, old-timey satsang (which CT hosts in his pad in the Haight) and ...well, you get the picture. The problem that I have with them is not so much that I can't pry them loose from Maharajism but that I can't pry them loose from their Hinduism. I'm sure you've seen that they are both suckers for Hindu ''saints'' with their posts about Ammachi, Yoganada, Krishamurthu, Sri Sri Uncle Tom Cobley Ji et al.

Subject: Re: Yes, Livia From: Livia To: PatC Date Posted: Wed, May 15, 2002 at 15:03:56 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks for filling me in. Actually I think they both sound pleasant enough, and they certainly don't get themselves all het up about factions and the like. It takes all sorts I say. Just speculating here, but I wonder if either of them come from Catholic backgrounds? I've noticed that quite a number of people brought up as Catholics are drawn to Hinduism. Perhaps it's the altars, incense, rosaries, statues, saints and things - Hinduism probably carries a lot of resonance. My Sai Baba friend was once a Catholic - she rebelled against her upbringing but then became a Sai Baba devotee and has a house full of altars and incense and a lot of actually quite Catholic-looking regalia. Best to you, Liv PS I'll answer your email pronto

Subject: I don't know, Livia From: PatC To: Livia Date Posted: Wed, May 15, 2002 at 15:40:22 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: But most of us exes were catholics and a few jews. No rush about the email.

Subject: Oh no! Not another good post from Will From: PatC To: Jim Date Posted: Mon, May 13, 2002 at 14:17:55 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'm glad you brought that over here. Actually he did several good posts over on LG recently and of course they were all met with the reheated porridge that one can always rely on from the anonymous cultweasels over there. You are a goddamed saint, Will. I know I can't be bothered to talk to those guys. It's also quite sad to see two people whom I know personally (CT and sfjim) now clutching at any spritual straw er teacher they can dig up - Ammachi, Yogananda, Krishnamurthi. Oh boy!

Subject: Sorry, but, well,..here's another one! From: Jim To: PatC Date Posted: Mon, May 13, 2002 at 17:36:29 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: A good post like this deserves to be not only read here but archived as well, so that's why I'm reposting it. What's really funny, by the way, is seeing Mili commisserate with his new friend, Selene, about what to do with all the 'crud' they get on themselves here. Mili just goes for walks on the beach, sits in cafes looking at pretty women. It must be tough coming here and being expected to be honest. You ask if I still practice. I will take your question to mean do I still practice a form of a 'journey within.' Obviously, I don't practice Knowledge anymore as Prem advises. But even when I considered myself 'a premie,' I didn't meditate as instructed, I must admit. I gave away my baragon while I was still in the ashram before Prem advised against them. I also did not do music technique because I could never get pass the annoyance of the bodily sounds that occur when the thumbs are in the ears. It was just never in me to seek higher consciousness by way of discipline. But still I was philosophically committed to enlightenment as all the past masters spoke of it. I left Knowledge a couple years ago partly because I had very slowly lost any interest in pursuing enlightenment. I did not feel, as you seem to, that my inner journal was unfolding everyday. I felt, instead, that I should stop striving for a state of consiousness that was supposedly superior to the one I was in naturally. I felt I should just be the finite person I am, and accept it totally for as long as I live. So I guess I should say no, I am not practicing an inner journey to anywhere or to any higher state. However, I do still meditate, although not very often, because I value that state of consciousness when the thoughts are quieted and the mind is alert and awake. That state of mind is pleasant and I think it helps 'open my mind to creative energy.' I also do meditation as a sort of prayer where the person simply opens his mind and heart to the higher power. But I don't seek to actually attain higher conscioiusness and it is now my belief that people should not do so, because we are as we should be, already. We can open our minds and hearts toward the higher powers, and that is a good thing, and that leaves all the rest up to the higher power to do as it sees fit. But we should not seek perfection because perfection is not our nature. Religion always tells people that they have to change in some way to become closer to God. I don't accept that anymore. What puzzles me about you, if you are expressing yourself honestly, is how you can practice Knowledge without seeming to have any sort of philosophical framework about what you are doing. I don't mean you have to have a very specific belief system about the universe, but you must have some sort of understanding about what you are doing in your practice of Knowledge other than just experiencing an experience. I do disagree with you that a person has to practice in order to have that experience. From the standpoint of being an ex-premie, I can say that my own experience as a premie contained absolutely nothing that I have now lost. Really, nothing really changes. The only thing I gave up was a belief system about who Maharaji is and what the goal of my life is. Otherwise, when I go inside I experience exactly what I used to experience and my heart is full, more full even because I have now accepted the desire of my heart toward other people, whereas as a premie I was caught up in that idea that attachments to people were something that got in the way of real love. That kind of struggle is something I also now see as being unrealistic, at best, and quite psychologically harmful, at worse.

Subject: Good, Will's gems are wasted on LG [nt] From: PatC To: Jim Date Posted: Mon, May 13, 2002 at 18:29:44 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: By his own admission From: Cat To: Jim Date Posted: Mon, May 13, 2002 at 17:42:21 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: He never practiced. Ever You should read the answers Mr Spin())

Subject: Oh come off it, Cat From: Jim To: Cat Date Posted: Mon, May 13, 2002 at 18:54:22 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Here's what he said re how he meditated: Obviously, I don't practice Knowledge anymore as Prem advises. But even when I considered myself 'a premie,' I didn't meditate as instructed, I must admit. I gave away my baragon while I was still in the ashram before Prem advised against them. I also did not do music technique because I could never get pass the annoyance of the bodily sounds that occur when the thumbs are in the ears. It was just never in me to seek higher consciousness by way of discipline. Do you really think it made a difference if he did ALL the techniques and used a baragon? Truth is, Cat, you don't know aht to think about this, do you? Where's the line drawn between someone practising K and someone not? Do you know? Can you say? No, of course you can't. It's a cult. You're not supposed to understand such things (as if there really were answers). You're just supposed to bow and bow and bow some more.

Subject: But Jim, the way to become Borg is to obey From: PatC To: Jim Date Posted: Mon, May 13, 2002 at 20:55:01 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The dear little cult clones have to do exactly as Rawat says including ''practicing self-knowledge'' like a bunch of synchronized robots.

Subject: No, that's your cult Pat From: Catweasel To: PatC Date Posted: Mon, May 13, 2002 at 22:31:11 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: No , speaking for myself nastypants , I do it because I enjoy it. I think your response simply proves one thing. YOU were faking for years.Is there anything about you that is remotely real?

Subject: That'll Be the Day From: Marshall To: Jim Date Posted: Mon, May 13, 2002 at 12:32:31 (EDT) Email Address: none Message: That is such a funny thought that I nearly spilled my coffee. The day Prem Rawat, admits anything, explains anything, or even makes sense, will be the same proverbial day that hell freezes over. I think Rawat envisions himself as kind of a Clint Eastwood character. The kind of he-man who can 'hold his water' or whatever, you know strong ,silent, steel-jawed(?!) As opposed to weak, pudgy, spoiled, ugly, etc. True dementia, no?

Subject: New article on EV in the Combat review From: Jean-Michel To: All Date Posted: Mon, May 13, 2002 at 04:44:54 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: La secte Elan Vital: Banale entreprise de méditation ? Voici une reproduction de l'article paru dans le numéro 27 (mars 2002)de la revue Combat. Reproduction avec l'autorisation de la revue Combat. Au service du gourou Maharaji, la branche française de la secte Elan Vital tisse méticuleusement sa toile, dans une totale discrétion. Révélations sur ses forces actuelles, son organisation interne et son mode de fonctionnement. Par Gilles Alfonsi et J-M Kahn Combat publie des documents internes de la secte Elan Vital susceptibles d'intéresser les services compétents : la fiche sur laquelle sont consignées les données relatives à la situation personnelle et à l'implication de chaque adepte (document 1), la carte de l'implantation du mouvement en France (document 2), une approche de ses activités en Europe, des consignes concernant la recherche de salles de séminaire (voir document 4) et des préconisations internes concernant la sécurité informatique des transmissions via Internet (voir document 4a)...... Sorry, but you'll have to learn frog talk!

Subject: Zoot alors! Grenouille! From: PatC To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Mon, May 13, 2002 at 05:12:01 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Well done, J-M. Now we just need Janet to translate.

Subject: Article overview From: Jean-Michel To: PatC Date Posted: Mon, May 13, 2002 at 05:25:31 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Quick article's overview: The article is articulated around genuine (recent) administrative documents we've got from EV (not directly from them of course). 1st document: how aspirants are monitored and data gathered on them 2nd document: map/figures of the premies communities in France 3rd document: map/figures of premies in Europe 4th document: EV's organization charts and some excerpts of First Class documents Also a paragraph on Jean-Paul Biberian, president of EV France, who's a senior lecturer in physics, working on 'cold fusion' (which has been proved unworkable)... Looks like EV has no more 'official' activities in France anymore. No message on answering machines, no nothing !

Subject: French got a mention From: Moll of Mole To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Mon, May 13, 2002 at 16:33:28 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I heard that his guruness spoke to a french premie in one of these 'no question sessions' about the situation in France. Did any of you Ausies that went to the gathering hear anything of this? MoM

Subject: Merci beaucoup, J-M From: PatC To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Mon, May 13, 2002 at 13:04:23 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You said: ''Also a paragraph on Jean-Paul Biberian, president of EV France, who's a senior lecturer in physics, working on 'cold fusion' (which has been proved unworkable)...'' So he specializes in hot air and cold fusion? Another waste of tax-payers' money?

Subject: That's precisely the point ! From: Jean-Michel To: PatC Date Posted: Mon, May 13, 2002 at 13:17:28 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: That also happens in France. The journalist makes a parallel between an old satsang of Jean-Paul he found in some old DLM magazine, and what he now says about 'cold fusion'.

Subject: I know. I understand you. :C) [nt] From: PatC To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Mon, May 13, 2002 at 13:28:52 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: More Cainer Stuff From: Thorin To: All Date Posted: Mon, May 13, 2002 at 04:44:34 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Whilst posting the helicopter stuff for Mirror down below I also have some additional articles on the 'Cainer Saga' which may not have been posted before (if they have apologies). In any event makes for light reading - like 'Mills and Boon' :) Have posted the full 14 July 1999 Guardian article but scroll down to where Cainer stuff starts. Also see linked stuff on Drek's site which gives more context of how Cainer fits into all this. --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- 1,402 words 14 July 1999 The Guardian 5 English (c) 1999 I was due to appear on Question Time last Thursday. A couple of weeks ago, however, one of the producers rang to say that a `special guest' would be replacing me. Tony Blair (for it was he) duly came off the substitutes' bench and, before the evening was out, had promised to outlaw fox-hunting `as soon as we possibly can'. Aneurin Bevan used to say that the language of socialism is the language of priorities, and for many people the welfare of foxy-whiskered predators seems a far higher priority than such trifling sideshows as poverty, education, health or public transport. Never mind that Blair's pledge was manifestly a ploy to redeem himself in the eyes of those Labour voters whom he had gratuitously offended only two days earlier with his sneers at public-sector workers. We are assured by Downing Street's busy spin-merchants that the PM has always hated hunting, and that his remarks though unexpected were wholly sincere. If so, why did he embellish them with such palpable fibs about Mike Foster's private member's bill? `We had one try last session ... I voah-ed for it,' he said, employing the glottal stop usually reserved for his chummy performances on the Des O'Connor Show or Richard And Judy. A glance at Hansard reveals that the prime minister did not voah at the second reading of the Wild Mammals (Hunting With Dogs) Bill in November 1997, nor at its report stage and third reading in March last year. `It was blocked by Conservatives in the House of Commons and in the Lords,' Blair continued. `One of the reasons we are reforming the House of Lords is that a whole lot of her-editary peers can be brought out of the woodwork to defeat a bill that many people support.' This is a veritable banquet of bollocks: testicle terrine followed by grilled gonad and rounded off with bollock brulee. The Foster bill never even reached the Lords. What killed it was the refusal of the government Tony Blair's government to provide the necessary parliamentary time. `I do not see a role for government,' Jack Straw announced on the eve of the third reading, explaining why Foster could expect no official help. `I am well aware there are strong opinions on this, but it is not uppermost in the minds of the majority of the population.' Having already changed his mind on private prisons, trial by jury and much else, Straw may get terminal indigestion if he has to eat any more of his words. Like Tony Blair, I dislike hunting. But is it any more objectionable than other blood sports? `Let those whose preferred sport is with shotgun or fishing rod be under no illusion,' the Daily Telegraph warned its readers last Saturday. `The bell that tolls for hunting will toll for them.' Labour MPs insist that this is untrue, and for once I believe them. `I shall state now, and repeat whenever necessary, that the bill does not extend to shooting and angling,' Mike Foster told the Commons in 1997. As well he might: for all his pious disapproval of `cruelty and barbarism in the name of sport', Foster is himself a veteran coarse-fisherman who has often inflicted unnecessary suffering on hapless carp purely for his own gratification. FM Cornford's famous Principle of the Wedge holds that `you should not act justly now for fear of raising expectations that you will act still more justly in the future'. He meant it satirically, of course a point overlooked by those who argued that Nato's failure to defend the people of Rwanda or East Timor somehow disqualified it from intervening in Kosovo. (In the words of another Cornfordism, the Principle of the Dangerous Precedent: `Nothing should ever be done for the first time.') Even so, any precedent does indeed raise expectations that its logic will be followed through in comparable cases. Why, then, does Tony Blair's moral compassion not extend to those poor fishy-wishies who are hauled out of gravel pits with vicious hooks in their mouths? Mike Foster gave the game away when he turned up for his second-reading debate brandishing a fluffy toy fox a stunt that John Prescott gleefully repeated this week. Mr and Mrs Reynard are cutey-pies who must therefore be protected (though, of course, they won't be protected at all, merely shot or gassed). But you will search the shelves of Hamleys in vain for a cuddly little perch or tench. Until our piscine pals start growing fur, they can expect no mercy. Banning hunting like hunting itself is not only a trivial pursuit but also an infantile disorder. Yet we now learn that Labour intends to make this issue `the heart of its campaign' in the Eddisbury byelection. As the Guardian reported on Monday: `Party chiefs believe there is strong opposition to the sport in the Cheshire constituency, which is home to the Cheshire Hunt.' If they want to prove that hunting is the preserve of reactionary, half-witted toffs, these party chiefs could hardly choose a less appropriate place. The most distinguished former member of the Cheshire Hunt was a lifelong Marxist who described fox-hunting as `the best school of all' for serious revolutionaries. His name? Frederick Engels. The Daily Mail seems to have appointed itself as the official newspaper of the solar eclipse. Not content with chartering a ship and a plane from which a lucky few competition-winners can witness the event, the paper is also offering an Eclipse Horoscope by `Britain's foremost astrologer', Jonathan Cainer. Mail executives must have forgotten what happened the last time a group of simpletons failed to notice the difference between astronomy and astrology, when the appearance of the Hale-Bopp comet in 1997 prompted members of the Heaven's Gate sect in San Diego to commit mass suicide. The Daily Mail denounced the dead cultists as `freaks' whose `bizarre gospel' that salvation could be found in a comet reflected an `obsession with the stars which was a throwback to thousands of years ago'. Jonathan Cainer, however, described Hale-Bopp as `a herald ... that undoubtedly signifies imminent worldwide change on an impressive scale'. Two years on, he is making identical claims for the eclipse: `It heralds the start of change, on an unparalleled scale, for the whole world'. This Cainer is a man who needs watching. Although the Daily Mail is proud of its record in exposing sinister cults that brainwash converts and break up families, as proved by its epic 101-day libel battle against the Moonies in 1981, it seems unaware that its own astrologer is a devotee of just such a cult. The object of Cainer's veneration is the Guru Maharaj Ji, who came to the west as a tubby 13-year-old in the early 1970s and persuaded thousands of ex-hippies to join his Divine Light Mission. Such was his appeal that by the end of the decade he owned 93 Rolls-Royces and had run up a $4m bill for back-taxes. In those days the guru described himself as the Lord of the Universe and the Exploding Love-Bomb. Since then, the Divine Light Mission has changed its name to Elan Vital, and its leader now prefers to be known as Maharaji, Perfect Master. But his methods and lifestyle remain the same: when not touring the world in his $25m Gulfstream private jet, exploding love-bombs all over the faithful, he retreats to a vast Malibu mansion, nursing his duodenal ulcer and counting his loot. Rather coyly, Jonathan Cainer never mentions the guru in his Daily Mail column. In cyberspace, however, he is less discreet: he runs a website (www.enjoyinglife.org) devoted to the cult, and in April this year he travelled all the way to Malaysia merely to hear one of Maharaji's speeches. `There are so many newspapers and magazines,' the Perfect Master told his audience. `Imagine if one of them just said: `Everything is fine ... go and enjoy yourself and don't waste your time.' Even if that newspaper sold just one copy it would be a worthwhile exercise to print it.' On his website, Cainer describes this idea as `magnificent'. Maybe he should suggest it to the Daily Mail. --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- By Jonathan Cainer. 188 words 16 July 1999 The Guardian 23 English (c) 1999 Francis Wheen appears to be suggesting (The Mail man, the Maharaji and the exploding love bomb, G2, July 14) that I am about to invite readers of my newspaper to participate in a mass suicide. I know that the Guardian is keen to improve its monthly circulation. The annihilation of a few thousand Daily Mail readers would no doubt help greatly in this endeavour. Nonetheless, I feel that this is taking wishful thinking a tad too far. I do not belong to any cult, astrological or otherwise. I do have a keen interest in the world of a teacher called Maharaji but I am not his (or anyone else's) devotee. Nor do I recognise the person in the picture you printed. The Maharaji that I know does not have 93 Rolls Royces, nor has he ever described himself as an `exploding love bomb'. I cannot tell you whether or not he is has a duodenal ulcer but it looks very much to me as if you are getting him mixed up with someone else. Jonathan Cainer Daily Mail. --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- 443 words 21 July 1999 The Guardian 5 English (c) 1999 Jonathan Cainer, the Daily Mail's resident stargazer, has taken umbrage at my suggestion that he is a devotee of Maharaji, the tubby preacher who used to call himself the Guru Maharaj Ji. Why, then, does he maintain a large website devoted to the old boy? `I'm a keen aficionado of Maharaji's work and his message,' Cainer explains, in a `very personal statement' posted on the website replying to my article last week. `But I really have to reject that devotion notion. It implies some kind of religious faith and if this is a religion or faith, that's the first I have heard of it in my 20-odd years of involvement.' Tut tut: Cainer clearly hasn't been paying attention. Maharaji himself dealt with the `devotion notion' when addressing more than 50,000 followers in New Delhi on April 13 1991: `What has a devotee to become? A devotee has to become a receptacle. And what has a disciple to become? A disciple too has to become a receptacle. Whatever you name him, he is meant to be a vessel, meant to be empty ... You have to turn to the Master and pray to him to give you prudence - `Maharaji, please give me wisdom ... If my attention is diverted somewhere else, O my Lord, please call me back to you ... I do not know what is good for me. But you know best.' Cainer says Maharaji has never claimed to be `some kind of divinity'. In fact, he has often done just that. Interviewed by the Divine Times newspaper in February 1973, he described himself as `the Supremest Lord in person'. In February 1982 he advised aficionados that `by yourself you cannot do anything, but I can do everything ... I am the law, in which rests the movement of the stars and the growth of each living cell'. At another New Delhi rally, on November 9 1990, he announced that `the guru is such a personality about whom it is said: `I bow down to the lotus-feet of my Guru Maharaji, who is the ocean of mercy and is actually Hari (God) himself in human form.' Since then, Maharaji has been more cautious, presenting himself merely as a Master of Meditation. But I have it on the best possible authority that he hasn't changed his views: only last Saturday, the Maharaji assured a crowd in Barcelona that his message `is always the same'. How could Cainer fail to notice? I can only assume that he has been too busy admiring the fragrant lotus-feet of the editor of the Daily Mail. Cainer on Drek Site www.oz.net/~drek/best/nigel_cainer_expose.html

Subject: OL..should be prominent on epo. Thanks nt From: la-ex To: Thorin Date Posted: Mon, May 13, 2002 at 10:19:21 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Glad they've used some From: Jean-Michl To: Thorin Date Posted: Mon, May 13, 2002 at 09:34:26 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: EV-DLM Papers quotes !!

Subject: Self-revisionism From: Loaf To: All Date Posted: Mon, May 13, 2002 at 02:08:30 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I had a strange conversation yesterday. Someone asked me about my Guru...2 hrs later... Where do you start ? They were genuinely interested in the whole phenomenononon and how a seemingly (HA!) intelligent bloke like meself could get into it. I think the fact that they value my opinion actually would have leant Maharaji some credibility...but its a tough subject to talk about in depth. Over the two hour ex-sang I cover a wide range of topics, but I also realised how deeply grateful I am for the whole thing. Please dont shout at me .. I am not advising anybody else,but it came home to me clearer than ever that the EXITING process after 18 years of blissful devotion is the natural and rightful fruition of those feelings and that path. BUT what struck me was how, given a open eyed audience, I can quote and talk and 'bliss em out' for hours. The ONE thing which stopped em from getting blissed out was the fact that I was tempering my praise and gratitude and memories of K and Maha with the perspective of exiting. It somehow 'earths' the lightening, discharges the static and stops the balloons of bliss getting too inflated. Instead of 'WOW' we are left with 'INTERESTING', and the reason for this is that Exiting offers No answers. It places an apparant 'answer' (Knowledge and Maha) within a context of personal vulnerability and need, social pressure (subtle), conditioning, hype, etc etc... BUT what it also showed me was how conditioned to be grateful I am. For every person who was nice to me, from the age of 18 to the age of 35 or 36 I appologise. All those sweet, kind , loyal souls, most especially my late father, towards whom I felt no thanks for their love, but diverted it all to the clay feet of an eastern Guru. maharaji did teach me to be grateful. he did awaken the sweetest feelings of humility and thankfulness in me... but those feelings arrived badged and labelled, M brand loyalty. The journey back from an adolesecent state of hero-worship into a relationship with humanity and its foibles I undertook 20 years too late. lessons which I had never learned at 18, I face afresh at 39... and yet I am still grateful.. Grateful for the chance to be HERE, to have shared so much, and most of all, grateful to be coming home after a long, weird trip.

Subject: Loafie OT From: Moley To: Loaf Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 11:56:29 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Tried to ring you 2day - only to dicover the 'L' page has fallen out of Nige's filofax. Can I come for a cuppa 2morrow (Wed) or Thurs.... can you phone me, or email your number Moles xx

Subject: Cany find your number ! From: Loaf To: Moley Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 22:42:14 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Or your email ! (Dont know if I have ever had it, but its not on my new computer) Come round Today (Wednesday) in t'afternoon between 3 and 5 or email me and I will reply with my number ! Modern Life eh ! You dont have these problems if you havnt got electrickery. Loafie xx

Subject: Don't know which is your email! From: Moley To: Loaf Date Posted: Wed, May 15, 2002 at 04:47:16 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Nige has got 4 on his laptop! Modern life indeed. Can't keep up. Bring back the pigeons. I'll truck on over to you this afternoon xx

Subject: Welcome home Loaf From: Richard To: Loaf Date Posted: Mon, May 13, 2002 at 15:39:14 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I liked your post, carefully discriminating between what you learned and what was being insinuated upon you vis a vis 'M branded loyalty'. Your post strongly parallels Hamzens amazing Techniques Without Attribution quest (TWA?). I recently attended a welcoming ceremony here in Seattle for the so-called Lost Youth of Sudan. They are among the thousands of war-orphaned refugees taken in by the US. A friend of mine, who helps support their cause, asked what they needed - drums, clothes, etc. Their reply was that they had never been welcomed here so an event was planned. At the ceremony, after a warm talk by local officials, one youth stood and said that, because of our kindness, she now feels she is seeing her dead family again. Well, we sat there with tears streaming down our faces. That by way of saying welcome home to you, Loaf. Another reason why this forum has value. All of us M&K refugees need to feel welcome in our new 'homes'. Richard Forum Welcome Home Committee

Subject: Thankyou Richard From: Loaf To: Richard Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 04:11:56 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I too can finally see my dead family again. My late father died when I was 8 months into born-again-premiedom and I treated him very badly. I despised my parents 'blindness' in not being able to see Maharaji's wonder and this just compounded my adolescent arrogance and insensitivity. He died without either of us knowing how much I loved him. He was a kindly, ordinary, conventional, old fashioned chap of 71, but I couldnt see him, or my feelings about him in focus until I had started to get the usurper maharaj out of my system. I was in Sri Lanka in 2000 for the millenium, and in bed one night I was talking to my friend Helen and I tears finally began to flow as I realised how much I loved him. 18 yrs after his death and thousands of miles away from home, I made peace with my dead father. I embraced him, forgave him for being ordinary and I felt his love. Sometimes you have to kill the 'buddha' in order to bring life and love and respect to the mortals who deserve it. Been a wonderful journey home. Thankyou for your kind welcome. let the festivities commence ! Loafie

Subject: Hurrah hurrah! From: Bryn To: Loaf Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 05:31:07 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I cant resist joining in with your posts oh Loafing one. Let the festivities commence indeed! Let them, let them! I think that I was just an optimistic little chappie. M and K were a disguise within which to act. Admittedly there was more, but middle-class england didn't give much room for waving tendrils in the air, or leaping upwards in the bollie shree mode now did it? Today is the day the teddy bears have their picnic. Love BD

Subject: My mirth engine nearly burst ! From: Loaf To: Bryn Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 22:47:12 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The inflations of mirth engines and the waving of tendrils are lost on the Mr Mainwarings of this world, amongst whom we were raised. Sponteniety was never to be trusted... and along comes a free-form Spiritual Liberace.... and bingo ! You cant beat a good bholay Shree But dont FORGET BD... we have seen the Elvises congregate. There is life yet !

Subject: The celebration of return From: Richard To: Bryn Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 09:10:05 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Loaf, thanks for sharing your story of reconciliation with your father. Very moving. And yes Bryn, let the festivities commence. Here is the link to a website I created for Mosaic, the organization that arranged the welcoming ceremony. From the homepage under World of Unrest, there are links to photos I took at the celebration and links to an in depth story about the refugees in Seattle Times. Get out your hankies. Of course the Sudanese orphans' story is much more tragic than I can imagine but the idea of coming home and being welcomed home has it's parallels in the world of leaving M&K. Perhaps, in order to fully reintegrate back into the real world, our psyches need to be welcomed and have our return celebrated. This is one reason I continue to hover here even though I feel reconciled. It gives me an opportunity to participate in the ongoing celebration of return each time another person crosses the desert of false belief. Richard Mosaic mosaicvoices.org/

Subject: Re: The celebration of return From: Disculta To: Richard Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 09:17:40 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Richard, thanks for this moving link, and also this quote: 'This is one reason I continue to hover here even though I feel reconciled. It gives me an opportunity to participate in the ongoing celebration of return each time another person crosses the desert of false belief. ' I concur with your reasons for being here. I feel that a welcoming committee is really needed for jumping the wall, and that the members of this committee need to be kind and gentle and skilled enough to 'talk people over the wall' - which includes up the other side, teetering on the top and jumping into (hopefully) loving arms. It can feel very empty to leave such an all-consuming belief system, and in a way, confronting that emptiness is part of the recovery. But there's absolutely no need for loneliness and isolation to be part of the process. In fact, human contact with a group of people who were much more personally loving than premies was the greatest support I got when I left. love ktd

Subject: Thanks for that From: Jethro To: Loaf Date Posted: Mon, May 13, 2002 at 02:48:47 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'The journey back from an adolesecent state of hero-worship into a relationship with humanity and its foibles I undertook 20 years too late. 'lessons which I had never learned at 18, I face afresh at 39... and yet I am still grateful.. Grateful for the chance to be HERE, to have shared so much, and most of all, grateful to be coming home after a long, weird trip.' What you have beautifully put applies to many of us. Enjoy your true coming home. Oh yes, and ignore Mili, he's just jealous and still chasing the carrot. regard Jethro

Subject: Mili I find it hard to ignore From: Loaf To: Jethro Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 22:50:18 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: seeing as he is conspicuous by his abscence ! Thanks for your post (And Disculta from Tunbridge Wells below :0) Gratitute is a lovely thing. oh people of the world...let it flow , Let it Flow !

Subject: Grateful From: Disculta To: Jethro Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 09:10:39 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks for this beautiful thread. I also wave back and forth between being grateful for a lot about the whole MJ experience and annoyance at having been used by a very unconscious family whom I believed to be supremely conscious. I am very grateful for the walk I took yesterday on which I met all kinds of creatures including a 'stink-snake.' I'm grateful for being able to communicate with people all over the world through a box in my office. Also for my friends, family, husband and incredible step-kids, my work, my home and the new Walgreens pain patches. I think that it's important to claim our new home, as Richard so beautifully put it, and also to claim our continuing gratitude for life, if we so desire. Wouldn't want premies or MJ to think they had some monopoly on that now would we? love ktd

Subject: Re: Grateful From: Richard To: Disculta Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 09:19:45 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Welcome home, Disculta you awe-some goddess you! Glad to see you here and on my email. It's true that gratitude is just one more thing that was hijacked, but by coming back home we reclaim ourselves and the simple yet beautiful emotions that once were surrendered at da feet.

Subject: Maharishi on Larry King From: Richard To: All Date Posted: Mon, May 13, 2002 at 01:12:25 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Maharishi Mahesh Yogi was interviewed by Larry King Sunday night. I only caught a few minutes but most of what I heard was MMY giving monologue-sang on the Natural Law Government he would like established as a parallel government everywhere in the world. A bigger megalomaniac than you know who. Larry's hard hitting questions included 'Are you a vegetarian?', etc. Transcript will be on CNN site soon. Maharaji in Leaders and now Maharishi on Larry King. So I guess any day we'll see Reverend Moon on the Today Show and Sat Pal on Charlie Rose. Transcript www.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/lklw.html

Subject: Re: Maharishi on Larry King From: Hatshepsut To: Richard Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 02:53:15 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: A premie gave Larry King one of the first four prototype Breath watches. Which used to be available from Visions.

Subject: Here's the interview transcript link From: Richard To: Richard Date Posted: Mon, May 13, 2002 at 12:43:58 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: So far, it appears the Beatles' Guru is more forthcoming and honest than Prem Rawat. Let's see how MMY answers the same question put to PR Larry King: Is Maharishi a title or a name? Yogi: I feel I think people begin to call significant or the characteristic of the word Maharishi. Maha means great and rishi is a seer. The seer of reality. The seer, that's what people called and it became a sort of name. Now that wasn't so hard to do. The interview is also filled with Hindu hyperbole and mobius logic like this: KING: What is transcendental meditation? YOGI: Transcendental meditation is something that can be defined as a means to do what one wants to do in a better way, in a right way, for maximum results. It's a program that the mind begins to experience its own final impression. Its final thoughts and then finally transcends the finest thought and that is the level of what they call self-referral pure consciousness. Which is the ultimate reality of life. Pure intelligence from where? The creation emerges from where? The administration of life is maintained from where? Physical expression of the universe has this basis. So transcendental meditation brings about transcendental consciousness. Which is self-referral consciousness. The source of all intelligence. KING: Why ... YOGI: That level of intelligence becomes creative intelligence. Oh, now I get it. Maharishi interview www.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0205/12/lklw.00.html

Subject: A link to an ex-Member... From: Cynthia To: Richard Date Posted: Mon, May 13, 2002 at 15:19:01 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Here's a link to an anti-TM site. It's got lots of links to information about the cult. A couple of points: 1. Wasn't John Lennon turned off by the Maharishi? 2. George Harrison was a Krishna guy, right? 3. Maharishi did buy the Rawat 707...too funny. 4. Is Larry King mad?? Enjoy the link. There was another one to Enkankar on LG if anyone is interested in exploring new horizons:) Falling Down the Rabbit Hole www.suggestibility.org/

Subject: Re: Here's the interview transcript link From: Thorin To: Richard Date Posted: Mon, May 13, 2002 at 13:24:04 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Sheeesh KING: We know that your good friends, George Harrison and John Lennon, are gone. What do you believe happens upon death? YOGI: Death is just a -- it gives a new start for a new journey. In the process of evolution the body lasts for some time and then will take other body and take other body and take other body. Until the final redemption from diversity is transcended. The totality is found. They say the potential of life, cosmic potential of life, immortality in its field of counting it in terms of time. Immortality. Hey this YogiBear guy seems to make sense! At last a true GooRoo. I'm off, nice to know you guys, its been a pleasure, but greater things beckon! Will come back when I have completed the cycle of life. Time waits for no man. Now how much does a TM mantra costs these days? :) Thorin, finding some loose change before completing his life.

Subject: Who's plagiarizing who? From: Jean-Michel To: Richard Date Posted: Mon, May 13, 2002 at 13:21:09 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The Maharishi bought Rawat's old 707 (the one with the golden toilets), and the Mahararishi now also has his TV channel, the 'Maharishi channel'. Too funny !!

Subject: One real LOL here! From: Jim To: Richard Date Posted: Mon, May 13, 2002 at 02:09:05 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Just back from mom's day dinner for Laurie. Read this. THIS, Richard: Larry's hard hitting questions included 'Are you a vegetarian?', etc. broke us both up simultaneously. God, King just gets to the real heart of hard issues, doesn't he?

Subject: World peace for only $1 billion! From: Richard To: Jim Date Posted: Mon, May 13, 2002 at 13:38:36 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: KING: What part in all of this, Maharishi, does money play? There have been stories that you're the -- you're -- that you have started what is a multi-billion dollar business. YOGI: I lack only $1 billion to make a world -- better world. So, many months ago, I had publicized in the American papers that $1 billion endowment fund will raise enough this Vedic (UNINTELLIGIBLE) to fly about. We want to engage 40,000 people on a permanent basis, and they will have enough intense influence of coherency in the world consciousness. And anybody who wants to have peace, and everyone wants to peace, they were invited to donate. But I realized later that I was talking to the, this capitalist country. And capitalist country in their own fog. Unless they get something privately themselves, they'll not indulge into it. So money has become prominent in a world of capitalism. That I realized when nobody sponsored for world peace, and everybody wants world peace. But they will not part with some of their huge billions and millions in the bank. At least he's got a plan for all the money he's raising. 'A billion dollars worth of peace for those who want peace.' What a nice man and he's got a beard and everything so he must be for real.

Subject: Elan Vital's call to Jagdeo's victims From: JHB To: All Date Posted: Mon, May 13, 2002 at 00:20:19 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hidden away on EV's site is the following:- POLICY AGAINST HARASSMENT Elan Vital has a strict policy against sexual harassment or other forms of sexual misconduct. If you have been subjected to any form of sexual harassment or abuse by anyone associated or formerly associated with Elan Vital or other similar organizations, please contact Elan Vital’s General Manager at P.O. Box 6130, Malibu, California, 90264-6130 or at generalmanager@elanvital.org. Complaints will be responded to promptly and treated seriously. As it is unlikely any of the victims will find this, I intend giving EV a helping hand by publishing it a little more prominently on EPO. The funny thing is that this is under 'Policies', but instead of actually specifying any policies, they say that they have one for sexual harrassment or other forms of sexual abuse. They don't say what their policy is, or what their other policies are (after all policies is definitely plural). Maybe I'll write to them and ask. John. EV's sexual abuse policy www.elanvital.org/policies.html

Subject: Re: Elan Vital's call to Jagdeo's victims From: Livia To: JHB Date Posted: Mon, May 13, 2002 at 06:38:31 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: How interesting. I wonder if they offer compensation with an accompanying rider - that the victim signs a declaration promising not to publish any details of their abuse on any ex-premie website? A gagging order in other words. And I'd like to see the EV categorically the deny the existence of any gagging order whatsoever. I wonder if gagging orders are the norm in cases of compensation for sexual abuse? Livia

Subject: Yes, it needs a prominent place on EPO [nt] From: PatC To: JHB Date Posted: Mon, May 13, 2002 at 04:36:14 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Anyone care to comment? From: Jim To: All Date Posted: Sun, May 12, 2002 at 22:06:05 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: This is something Dave has posted on AG. I think it's garbage and insulting and obviously I feel strongly enough about it to show everyone here. Dave, get lost. 'Church lady' my ass. Oh yeah, the post was called 'The rise and fall of exism'. Salam; there was a golden age of Exes. Having followed it on the net since the first tentative posts on a guestbook and later on a newsgroup and then web forums, I can see when the golden age of exes occured. It was from 1998 to 2001. It started with just a few people talking about Bob Mishler's interview which was online and soon grew into a torrent of people voicing their disillusion with Maha and most importantly, voicing their previously untold stories about the real Maharaji. The Golden Age of Exes ended shortly after the two Michaels spilled a sack load of beans and when the CAC attacks got underway. Now the online ex-premie presence feels very different to those times. Things have changed, the stupendous revelations about Maharaji are no longer news but are instead, common knowledge. Most importantly, the people who wanted out of the Maha cult have now left. What is left? Some church ladies on both sides arguing amongst themselves. The war is over. Now there is just some pockets of resistence here and there, some hand to hand fighting and snipers. Most of the army are back in their barracks or home on extended leave, maybe never to be recalled. Now the ex-premies have been divided by certain hard-line factions, there is even less need to enter into the fray. There is no unity of exes any more and like the Roman Empire, it has shrunk into a small faction of holy church ladies with ever more fervor and ferocousness, yet without the urgency of the original ex-premie movement. The war against Maha is over. Long live peace. As we said in the sixties, ''Just do your own thing, man.''

Subject: It ain't over . . . From: Richard To: Jim Date Posted: Mon, May 13, 2002 at 14:25:20 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: . . . until everyone involved with M&K have come to a point of full integrity and resolution. By that I mean we who were there and then must be here and now living fully in the present free from Goo-Goo mind warp. Rome wasn't built in a day and Goo-Goo Gaa-Gaa doesn't unravel in one burst of outrage. One only has to read Brian's beautiful post below or read any newcomer's story to see that there is value in keeping the doors open. True, smoking guns of the Dettmers, Donner and McDonald variety don't appear daily but us Church Ladies have found a way to retrieve our selves. We talk with each other and listen to each other's ecstacy and pain and thereby become more human. The PWK who come by are reminders of how difficult it has been to come this far. Sir Dave, as you were there when I was struggling with which side of the fence I was on, I have great fondness for your contributions. I was outraged by the CAC terrorism visited upon you. I wish only peace and good health to you. I haven't followed the AG politics at all so I can't comment on that. But I can speak up for the value of a nice cozy pub where us vets can see a friendly face and also get called on our BS if needed. It only makes us stronger in our resolve to be human beings. Meanwhile, I'm guardedly optimistic. In the best of world's, M will tell the truth and do a three-way with the lion and lamb. Not holding my breath, Richard, Golden Age Ex Class of 2001

Subject: Re: It ain't over . . . From: Cynthia To: Richard Date Posted: Mon, May 13, 2002 at 14:59:05 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It's not over at all. I 've more respect for the people here now than ever before. I learn a lot about myself and sit back and just read. Lots of new exes have plenty to talk about with eachother and new stuff happens all the time. It's become civil and very comfortable to be here. I have been involved with the fighting on LG and AG. I don't like it (well once or twice I did):) It's gotten to a point that if I post anything on AG or LG I will automatically be demeaned by immature tactics on the part of certain posters whose names I'm not mentioning (not because I am afraid, but I don't want to draw them here). I'm no saint and never declared myself as such. However, when I see whole threads dedicated to ridiculing my mental health, you bet I will say something. In the short and long run it's not worth it to even look at AG anymore. Reading the crap there makes me think some posters have gone wacko (that's not a bona fide psychiatric term). I posted on AG that I think it's like the Hatfields and McCoys. Arguing for the sake of an argument forgotten is stupid and this one is so confused and distorted no one wins. A faction has been formed. One faction. The exes are not a faction, IMO. If some of those on AG and LG knew how infrequently I email Pat and Jim (they think we're some kind of team) they'd be very surprised. I'm not part of some weird and paranoid plot. In that faction people who previously posted here as exes are now joined with the premies on LG, who are delighted. They're all using eachother for some end which I can't figure out. It's subtle, but happening. I don't sense sincerity there as I do here. It's become fake and contrived on LG and AG. Furthermore, I never liked having a link from any of the forums to AG. I could understand it being there before Chuck started the Symposium, but I never felt comfortable with it. Until recently I never posted or looked at AG. If people want to have weird sex talk threads fine, but I have always been against a connection from here to there. I'm sure they have their fun and I'm not against that. I think that the Symposium is a much better alternative for Off-Topic posts than AG which, btw, I never before knew was an 'experiment in anarchy.' This forum has changed but as Richard said above there are many issues still to discuss and who knows what's next? Christ, the Mahareshi was just on Larry King. The most important part is the dialogue and friendship here. Thanks, Cynthia

Subject: Sir Dave From: AJW To: Jim Date Posted: Mon, May 13, 2002 at 08:04:30 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Jim, Sir Dave is a Howard Hughes type figure. He sits in his mansion in North London, planning to redress the injustices of the world using only his internet connection. He lost touch with reality many years ago. He is surrounded by servants and sychophants, eager to fulfill his every need. He means no harm, but, not surprisingly, being a millionaire recluse, doesn't always have his finger on the pulse on the street. Anth the pauper in a hut.

Subject: Re: Anyone care to comment? From: Livia To: Jim Date Posted: Mon, May 13, 2002 at 06:45:38 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: What on earth are you talking about? The debate here has never been more articulate, fascinating and illuminating. Methinks you are missing something. Down below only today someone posted that there's no infighting here at all right now - just a lot of increasing clarity. I for one fail to see why you have a problem with that. Perhaps you've just grown bored, but for those of us who are relatively new here, there's riveting stuff to read each day. Maybe you need to join another cult, stay with it a few years, then leave it and start up a new exes website. Then you can do it all over again with a completely new set of brainwashing to deconstruct! There's nothing more boring than the bored. Livia

Subject: Re: Anyone care to comment? From: Scott T. To: Livia Date Posted: Mon, May 13, 2002 at 11:45:59 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Livia: Down below only today someone posted that there's no infighting here at all right now - just a lot of increasing clarity. Well, infighting isn't allowed and one posts anything that doesn't agree with the primary take on things at one's own risk, but I'm open. What are you more clear about? I mean, surely you can be clear about it? I should add that I don't mean this as a challenge. I haven't been reading F7 in some time, so am not aware of what's been going on. Are there new insights into the cult phenomenon, or just this cult in particular? Has Maharaji been proven to be suffering from a chronic brain dysfunction? I wonder if strenuous exercise would help? I'd be willing to race him in a 10K rowing matchup, provided there are monitors to ensure he doesn't cheat. I mean, I'm spotting him 10 years so it could hardly be more fair. --Scott

Subject: Re: Anyone care to comment? From: Bolly Shri To: Livia Date Posted: Mon, May 13, 2002 at 09:26:41 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Right on Livia, Though the term 'church lady ' has some apeal. Sometimes I go to midnight mass at the catholic church. In my formative years the boys did all the front line stuff, being made in the image of god and all. Now it's abit of a free for all. All those good catholic girls now sporting bifocals and zimmer frames cruise around the alter doing all sorts of things, lighting candles, saying blessings etc. For someone who lapsed 40 years ago it's both interesting and entertaining. Call you soon I've been a bit off recently, love Bolly

Subject: For what it's worth - this From: Sir Dave To: Livia Date Posted: Mon, May 13, 2002 at 08:11:34 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I am thinking of a faction led by two. Namely Jim and PatC. And it's not just me but also a lot of other people who have experienced this. It's fine when people agree with the said people but when one disagrees, one is subjected to a tirade of insults that are undeserved. So what happens? Those insulted people leave Forum 7 and either come to Anything Goes or go to Life is Great. Then Jim and PatC come to Anything Goes or Life is Great and continue to insult the people who've just left, with more abuse. What is there to discuss? Nothing, because Jim and PatC won't agree with this (based on previous experience) and no further dialogue will be productive.

Subject: Re: For what it's worth - this From: Livia To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Mon, May 13, 2002 at 18:00:55 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dave, that's not really how it is at all. It's not to do with agreeing with Jim or Pat, it's to do with engaging in intelligent debate, with well reasoned arguments. It's to do with answering questions, not evading them. I've been reading and posting here for a few months and after initially considering Jim a bit over cynical, I've come round to realising that he's a very clear-headed person who knows how to argue intelligently and persuasively. I've also come to the conclusion that he's probably a very kind person too, pretty much the opposite to the way he's seen over on LG. If presenting your arguments succinctly and debating comprehensively with people who disagree with you amounts to creating a faction, then I think you've missed something, Dave. Livia

Subject: My post to Scott re 'factionalism' From: Jim To: Livia Date Posted: Mon, May 13, 2002 at 18:37:53 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: This is what I just said to Scott over on Symp (I can start using that forum more now that I've got an easy name for it!). Scott was suggesting that there really is some sort of 'factionalism' but, as I say below, people that abandon the very goals of the shared enterprise and lose sight of the issues aren't a faction so much as just drop-outs. Many people have dropped out of active involvement here. Guys like me are the exception. Hardly any, though, have changed their critical opinions about Maharaji. But only these new guys, just smouldering with anger from their interpersonal conflicts with some exes, are so angry they're forgetting what it was all about for them in the first place. Too bad they aren't amenable to rational discussion but they're not. Although, wouldn't it be wonderful if someone could talk with them. It won't be me. I've tried and they won't talk with me. But if anyone else wants to try to really get to the bottom of things with them, all power to you. Anyway, here's what I said to Scott: Scott, All that's happened is that some exes have, for their own various reasons, not gotten along with others of us. They've tried to find some point of honour as a rallying call or principle to gild their grievance but there isn't any. End of story. Now, if you don't believe me, and are interested, please, try to explore the issue with any of them. You'll see fast enough there's nothing there. Nothing, nothing, nothing. But hey, maybe that's just MY opinion. Go ahead, Scott, take a shot at it. See if you can get Deborah, for example, to explain how her dissatisfaction with the denizens of F7 is anything more than whining over not being able to lead the charge against , no not Maharaji, but Michael Nouri, through the pages of the National Enquirer. Or ask Selene what the hell she's on about because, really, with her, as far as I can tell, it's just nothing. As you say, she pissed me off joining the monkeys to jump on me for trying to talk with a premie in a civil, reasonable way, open discussion between two consenting adults kind of thing. You're damn right I demanded an explanation. But then I'm Jim, the asshole lawyer or something so no explanation for me, bucko! As for Salam, well, what's there to say? You've tried talking with him. Poor guy, I guess. Now, there's another set of angry or hostile exes and those are the ones who think that Katie's been somehow forced out of the picture. The friends of Katie crew. Well, sorry, but that's all bullshit too. Katie is as free and welcome to post as anyone. But, like anyone, she's going to be challenged on controversial ideas. She doesn't like that. She'd rather stay in her own self-inmposed exile rather than have to explain some of the insulting things she's said about the forum and exes at times. Just like Brian. He's in self-imposed exile too because, as I reckon, he did stuff like call us an 'angry mob' to Charles Glasser of all people, back when Glasser was attacking our integrity wholesale. You're damn right that was a betrayal of the first order. Brian held a tight-fisted grip on his gig as the 'webmaster' of EPO. That he would say something like that was appalling. So now you have bizarre revisionism, my favorite instance being Robyn sympathizing with Mili for his being badgered on the ex-premie forum such that he couldn't get a word in edgewise. It's not a numbers game, as you know, it's about the truth. The exes have it on their side because that's their orientation, to seek out, explore and share the truth about the strange cult we were all in. Many, many people have benefitted from this collective effort and nothing these poor, disgruntled types can do will or can change that. You know, it's funny, I asked Deborah a couple of times how any of her views of Maharaji, the truth about Maharaji, change if, for example, it turns out that I, the person who kept her from literally having no place to live, not once but twice, by lending her money and never pressuring her to return it, by inviting her into my home, introducing her to my friends -- I invited her to my office summer party, for Christ's sake, and Laurie had her over for her Christmas one -- really am the terrible person she says I am. Unforunately, she won't answer. Pity, because, as she's enjoying trying to set up some presence on LG along with the premies, it's a damn interesting question. Anyway, no the lines haven't blurred, there is no factionalism, because that implies that people still even interested in the issues have serious difference in addressing them. Deborah, Selene, Salam, these people aren't the slightest bit interested in those issues right now. Faction? Faction of what? And, really, can you imagine how different things would be if the National Enquirer HAD run that ridiculous story? Deborah would be happier than a pig in shit, relishing her great accomplishment. Oh yeah, I'd love to have her answer re how any of her conflict with some exes changes the facts about Maharaji. Tell you what, why don't you ask her? :)

Subject: Re: My post to Scott re 'factionalism' From: Scott T. To: Jim Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 01:17:09 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jim: I answered your post over on Symp, but just wanted to comment on: as I say below, people that abandon the very goals of the shared enterprise and lose sight of the issues aren't a faction so much as just drop-outs. Nihilism is one of the classic factions that's symptomatic of the dynamic I'm referring to. So, it's not *just* dropouts. It's more like: Yeah, here are the dropouts too. I don't think you can really seriously argue that other factions haven't developed where the members aren't even talking to one another, beyond this prototypical nihilist stuff. I feel nasty even bringing it up, since there's a lot that I probably don't even know about, and don't *want* to know about, so I'm not going to rattle off a rollcall. Just stop and think about it for a few moments. Anyway, you haven't convinced me I'm not pitching over the plate. --Scott

Subject: Re: My post to Scott re 'factionalism' From: Jim To: Scott T. Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 01:23:28 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Well I convinced myself. Strike three! No, just kidding. Scott, of course I'm right. Next? Okay, okay .... Scott, did you see the definition of 'faction' I clipped from the online dictionary? 1 : a party or group (as within a government) that is often contentious or self-seeking : CLIQUE 2 : party spirit especially when marked by dissension I don't see where there's any room for drop-outs. I mean, don't forget, these guys aren't going anywhere near the issues that brign us together in the first place. Hell, they're so much not doing that that they're camping with the 'enemy' so to speak on the tacit understanding that, because of their personal antipathies, they don't give a damn about any of this anymore. What sayest thou?

Subject: Quit pulling my leg From: Scott T. To: Jim Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 08:12:47 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I gave a more complete answer on Symp. Basically, it's a social/political theory so doesn't rest on Webster, anyway. But it conforms to the Webster definition. 'In government' isn't definitive, with an introductory 'as' so the parenthetical is just illustrative. And it's certainly a contentious and self-seeking clique marked by dissension. Quit pulling my leg. --Scott

Subject: Public versus private From: PatC To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Mon, May 13, 2002 at 13:27:33 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: So, Sir Dave, what you're really saying is that Jim and I like to argue in public and that we have upset your ''experiment in anarchy'' on AG. I've been reading the ex-forums for nearly two years and AG has always been a backwater, an in-club where exes who are bored with the cult discussion go to hunt ducks and talk in German accents with multiple fake names. It is a PRIVATE chatroom with no relevance to the public on-line presence of exes and should probably be password protected as most of what happens there should only happen between consenting adults in private. Okay, nothing wrong with that BUT you wanted links to it from other ex forums and wanted the nonsense there to be part of our PUBLIC presence on-line. It was fine until you did that. The moment you did that, it lost it's right to privacy and sure I came over and started arguing because I was being attacked there during the Debacle. It also lost it's right to privacy when it's users started to attack me and my business. It is not a forum with which I wish to be associated publicly in connection with my anti-cult presence on the net. Get a room for what you want to do :P - I mean a private chatroom - because what the disgruntled are grunting is not exactly the sort of stuff to be done in public and nothing I wish to have my name associated with.

Subject: Re: For what it's worth - this From: Jim To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Mon, May 13, 2002 at 11:44:18 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dave, I have seen you make some stupid calls over the years but this one takes the cake. I'm just sitting here scratching my figurative head and wondering how on earth you could be so ... oh sorry, that'd be name-calling, wouldn't it? I would offer to run over the actual history of Deb's, Selene's or Salam's dyspepsia with you but it'd be a waste of time. You asked on Symposium what Selene had done to contribute to any conflict or misunderstanding, pledging to defend her to the death or something, noble knight that you are and all that. (Very funny, you're a knight but not an ex -- labels being so misleading such as they are...). But when I answered you just glazed over any of my points proving to me that you didn't really want to discuss it, your mind was made up. Very disappointing, Dave, very. The only real tool we have to understand each other and make any sense of anything we talk or care about here is rational discourse. One of the problems common amongst Salam, Deborah and Selene is that each of them, for various reasons, can't or won't engage in same. Deborah has taken on this bizarre thing where she'll talk about people like Pat or me but she won't talk to us. Hence, she dances around LG now trying her best to get our attention, lying, twisting, saying whatever, just to get a rise out of us but never, ever having the guts or maturity to actually discuss things with us. Indeed, just yesterday I noticed a post where she actually gloated about how much fun it was doing that. No kidding, it's on LG, if you haven't seen it already. The last time Deborah actually talked with me was to call me a liar for disclosing that --get this -- she threatened to have someone killed and I had to scream at her to get her to finally take that back. (I've since disclosed that that was PatC she was talking about). She called me a liar but, as I've said, I have witnesses and it was Deborah that was lying about that. In fact, she even tried to explain away that threat once, trying to assert that it didn't really matter seeing as she didn't write it or something. (You can get all sorts of wacky legal advice and opinions from Deb. It's all over LG). So she called me a liar and has refused to talk with me since. Selene, likewise, joined in with the monkeys over on LG who started throwing nuts and bananas at me when I was having an otherwise, ahem, fruitful discussion with a premie named Isabella there. Just so you know, it was an interesting dialogue. Isabella had last conceded that, at first blush, someone seeing Maharaji with his premies and seeing them line up to kiss his feet as they did at Amaroo last month, would likely think they were seeing a cult. However, she said, if they examined the matter more closely, looked below the surface, as it were, they'd learn otherwise. I then asked her how that person could examine it more closely if Maharaji is going to sidestep every substantial question as he did, for example, in the silly Leaders Magazine interview we've been looking at recently. Indeed, wouldn't the very resistance the 'group' had to sharing solid, unvarnished information about its past or present suggest even further to that inquiring person that this was a cult? Isabella never got to answer that before the monkeys went crazy. I was threatened, flamed, ridiculed, you name it. And who should join in the pile-up but our own Selene? She posted something obtuse, and then when I asked her what she meant, she tittered like a little school girl, showed me the hand, so to speak, and laughed and laughed and laughed about how she, like Deborah, didn't have to answer anything I asked. As for Salam, well, look, let's be honest. You've read his posts for years now. Somewhere in that crusty, coarse, despondent and surly head of his is an operating brain. There must be seeing as he makes his living doing some sort fo computer something. But then, come to think of it, so does CD. :) Anyway, Salam has been imploding into his own private hell of confusion for some time now. He's understandably at great odds with me, I think, because I support Israel, at least to the extent that they're entitled to defend themselves, etc. (please, no political stuff here. I'll gladly take it up with anyone on Symp.) Hence, I'm a dirty 'Zionest' or however Salam misspells it. That's right up there with Pat's faggotality or something. There is NO talking with Salam. I've tried. When he got into some trouble of his own a year or so ago, I and others were there to help him work through it. Too bad he forgets what real friendship is all about. So now these guys have chosen to swirl all sorts of stale, cotton candy silliness about us, about the forum, about anything. But so long as they refuse to argue or debate their allegations fairly, they're no better than the various cult members we've tried to discuss matters with over time. No different. Same problem, different bottle. And you, Dave, can throw your lot in with those who like to accuse because it satsifies a limbic system impulse or, you can choose to discuss things. Up to you. I must laugh, though, at the fact that you're already griping about the fact that Deborah threw some sort of paranoid allegation at you, apparently, which she never bothered to explain or attempt to resolve. Mind you, so long as you can denounce me and PatC, I'm sure you guys will easily overcome that little difference and will find much in common between you. Just like she, Selene and Salam will find much in common with all the premies they're now going to -- what? Discuss Maharaji with? That's a laugh -- over on LG. The forum IS strong, Dave, because of the process here, not some hierarchy, not even its history. If you want to turn your back on it, no biggie.

Subject: Don't count me out From: Brian Smith To: Jim Date Posted: Mon, May 13, 2002 at 04:12:23 (EDT) Email Address: Not provided Message: Now the ex-premies have been divided by certain hard-line factions, there is even less need to enter into the fray. There is no unity of exes any more and like the Roman Empire, it has shrunk into a small faction of holy church ladies with ever more fervor and ferocousness, yet without the urgency of the original ex-premie movement. I am sorry Dave but I have to disagree with your observations here particularly the notion that there is no unity amongst exe's or need to enter the fray as you describe it. I have been out of pocket lately due to some serious health concerns that plus the recent death of a sibling has dealt a devastating emotional blow on top of an already debilitating physical condition. I fully intend to come out of extended leave once my health improves, right now I just do not have that much energy reserve. I have to tell you that there still exists a special commitment and unity amongst ex's, I myself have personally been humbled by the genuine love, the kind thoughts and energy sent my way by many new friends I have made here. I have felt firsthand that the same unifying sense of purpose amongst us exes is as alive and well as it has ever been. These many small gestures speak volumes and I think that one need only look to the actions themselves as a barometer measurement of the humanitarian attributes many exe's share paricularly when compared to the reactions from my decades old premie friends. Which was zilch, nada, nothing, even after all these years not one single contact. What does that say about the value of this so called self knowledge having any benefit whatsoever on becoming a more compassionate and self adjusted person as it is purported to do via recent testimonials. When old (cult member) friends shun you in time of need what it says to me is that self knowledge seemingly has no value when it comes to relating to one another with differences set aside and allowing old friendships to be honored. A small gesture of this nature would seemingly be a tribute to any benefit of what self knowledge offers, but instead the shunning suggests a far different effect, one of limitation and secret conspiracy, restained and controlled not by love but by fear and retribution. On the contrary here with my new ex friends, I have been deeply touched by the outpouring of love and support from these courageous and beautiful people from this forum who have called or emailed to let me know that I am appreciated and missed. I have recieved many messages of love, strength and courage by so many of you whose names are far too numerous to mention. You folks are new friends whom I have all just recently met over the course of the last year and a half both on line and off. This again illustrates by comparison the difference in response from my many decades old premie friends. The premie community where I live in is very small (which one isn't anymore) and tight, this is a community that I dedicated over 29 years to. News always travels fast in these circles and it never takes long for these folks to pass around info via the old phone tree. News about my status, both as an ex and as a person who is going through some difficult life challenges right now is common knowledge. After 29 years of commitment not only as a former cult member but also as a long term friend to many of these community members you would think that I might have recieved some acknowledgement out of respect for our long term relationship. A person of that supposed elevated level of self awareness should be able to find the inspiration to set aside differences and reach out to an old friend. I can't help wondering why this highly acclaimed self knowledge can't even create a small breakthrough in dealing with one another on the most basic of human level of friendship. Such an action would be an exemplary example of self awareness and a true testiment to the possible value of the self knowledge experience you would think. So what is the cult position instead of compassion and respect for time honored friendship? It's the cold shoulder, persona non gratis treatment. Even after the many years shared going through the same things together not one old premie friend has called so far. So what does this say? It looks to me like this whole business of self knowledge from the rawat school of initiation does not include compassion or any point of reference beyond the conditions accepted or valued by the cult. At this point as an ex, I have no further value to them as a cult member or beyond that even as a friend, no matter how far back we go. It goes to show as well that this particular belief structure, or experience or whatever the acceptable term used today to describe ones involvement in it serves to divide and separate, not accept and include. A rather lowly testament to the attributes one would hope to garner from an alledged master of the so called art of self knowledge. But so far not one old premie friend has contacted me, I do not view these people as the enemy. I harbor no ill will at all against my old premie friends and aquaintances. The enemy is ignorance and the target of my concern for that is the perpetrator of the ignorance, rawat himself. On the other hand, thanks to all of you ex's here who have been so kind and considerate to me lately, your compassion and humanity represents the highest tribute to as real a self knowledge and unity as I have ever experienced. I have been gifted a greater sense of unity and friendship now from all of you than I can ever recall experiencing as a cult member. Brian, A golden age ex, class of 2001

Subject: Brian, A golden age ex class of 2001 From: PatC To: Brian Smith Date Posted: Mon, May 13, 2002 at 04:34:16 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Well said, Brian. Sir Dave is just pissed because his fan club's been routed. Have you seen Absolutely Fabulous yet?

Subject: Not yet Pat, From: Brian Smith To: PatC Date Posted: Mon, May 13, 2002 at 05:34:51 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hello Pat, It nice to get back out here, even if for just a brief hit and run, I just don't have the gas in the tank to get after it like I used to. It's nice to be anywhere considering that last week the medication my doctors prescribed to counteract the pharmacutical induced anemia side effects from the ribivirin/interferon elevated my blood pressure to a stoke zone of 219/115. It's under control now but it was touch and go for a while there. Yikes! I am going out in search of Absolutely Fabulous tomorrow, that and Bubble Boy which sounds like a riot as well. Any suggestions as to where I might locate these? Blockbuster here did not have either title available last time I checked. I think about you and Chuck and Andy often and that exquisite meal that you prepared for Gerry and I. If you ever come up this way, make sure you guys get over here so that I can return the favor, or at least collaborate on a mutually prepared culinary creation. It is good to hear from you,

Subject: Here is SF we have From: PatC To: Brian Smith Date Posted: Mon, May 13, 2002 at 13:10:14 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ....a video store (Le Video) that specializes in unusual and hard to get videos. Blockbusters doesn't have Ab Fab. Now I wish I hadn't recorded over my tapes. Do you have some specialty video store there? that carries Brit vids? If you do then get Mapp and Lucia too. I'm sorry to hear you had another setback. You know I'm rooting for you. Lots of love to you.

Subject: I'll comment From: JHB To: Jim Date Posted: Mon, May 13, 2002 at 00:11:18 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: This is complete garbage. Where is the evidence that all those who want to leave the cult have left? We still get regular new people posting on the forum, and writing to me as webmaster. EPO's page reads are as high as ever (and I'm sure it's not the same people re-reading the site). The 'stupendous' revelations about Rawat are still as stupendous as ever for those just coming to the site, and are still a complete mystery for those who don't understand English or French. I'll grant that things feel different for active exes who have been through the last year, as the attacks on exes and EPO do leave a bitter taste in the mouth. I remember telling Jim I had no enemies. He corrected me at the time, but it took a little while for me to understand that it was true. Regarding the 'hard-line factions', there are those who seriously want to discuss the facts about Maharaji, and those who don't or can't. Hardly hard-line factions. Yes, Dave's post is insulting to us, but then Dave has always felt superior to other exes, to the extent that he recently said he would feel like an alien if he ever met a group of exes. Sorry, Dave, you're well out of order here, son. John.

Subject: I'll comment too From: Sir Dave To: JHB Date Posted: Mon, May 13, 2002 at 00:59:24 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I have never thought that I was superior, JHB. I never implied that and have never thought that. Just that I wouldn't fit in. Just like I never fitted into being a premie. I didn't think my original post that Jim reposted would have caused such offence. I am mild compared to some people who post insults to other people. Yes, I'd say I was very mild. Hardly a gross insult is it, using words like ''church ladies'' when there have been far worse insults being layed on some ex-premies; for instance, suggesting that they are mentally ill. And those insults have not been made by CAC premies but by operators of this forum and for no good reason other than to insult and hurt. Now I find that particularly disgusting. But don't worry, I won't cause a stir. I do know when to stop. I also know when to walk away.

Subject: One man's meat is another man's..... From: PatC To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Mon, May 13, 2002 at 03:48:04 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: In a thread below Nigel says this: ''Don't know about you, but it seems to me this forum has never been in better shape in the whole of the last four years. On-topic - with appropriate semi-OT moments - minimal friction between exes, and even minimal interventions from hostile anon premies (who you instantly know who they are anyway and illustrate all the worst characteristics of pewkiness).'' Now I read that you think that the ex-premie online scene has passed into the Kali Yuga. The only thing that has passed into the Kali Yuga is your little experiment in anarchy. Though why you would want to experiment in something that is already rife on the net I don't know. Anarchy is for bored, irresponsible, anti-social, solipsistic and unsubtle idiots like the ones you are defending and who are now busy blowing air-kisses to the anonymous cultweasels on LG. BTW no-one ''suggested'' that your experiments were ''mentally ill.'' That information was not only volunteered by them but flaunted at every opportunity. It was their presence on this forum two years ago screaming ''Rawat Sucks'' which kept me and at least two other exes from joining in on F5. It was not until Michael Dettmers calm and measured tones dispelled some of that mental illness that you have seen the ranks of exes who post double in the past year. I've got a few other bones to pick with you, Sir Dave, but I'll do it on the Symposium.

Subject: proven his point.............nt From: I think you have just To: Jim Date Posted: Sun, May 12, 2002 at 22:53:22 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ...

Subject: This ZB thing is Quiet From: PatC To: ZB Date Posted: Mon, May 13, 2002 at 03:55:35 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: This cowardly and creepy anonymous cultweasel has been stalking Jim over four forums with inane lawyer jokes. It uses one of the IP numbers that Quiet used. Funny how Quiet disappeared when I mentioned that he may be someone else.

Subject: Re: This ZB thing is Quiet From: ZB To: PatC Date Posted: Mon, May 13, 2002 at 21:05:29 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hey PatC

Subject: Marianne, you tell'em, girl! From: gerry To: All Date Posted: Sun, May 12, 2002 at 12:06:19 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Well, there's no color pictures and she didn't pay for publication, but here's a news story about a real life battle our own Marianne waged and won... Well done, lass www.latimes.com/news/local/la-000033267may11.story

Subject: Whatever From: Marshall To: gerry Date Posted: Sun, May 12, 2002 at 21:22:56 (EDT) Email Address: none Message: Oh boy great, a convicted rapist/murderer is getting released on technicalities. ''But he had a crank habit, that made him mentally unbalanced, and since that wasn't brought up the whole trial is fucked' Oh, ok, that's fair(?). Screw the relatives of the woman who was murdered. Fuck em, capital punishment is barbaric. I'm liberal, except in cases like this. This stuff makes me sooo mad! I could be wrong, though, I guess?

Subject: That's why they call it a criminal justice system [nt] From: Dep To: Marshall Date Posted: Mon, May 13, 2002 at 12:27:44 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: Whatever From: Marianne To: Marshall Date Posted: Sun, May 12, 2002 at 22:31:44 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It's not a technicality, Marshall. He was on trial for his life. His lawyer did nothing to defend him. He's not getting out -- he's getting a new trial. What is wrong with that?

Subject: Hmmmmm... From: Marshall To: Marianne Date Posted: Mon, May 13, 2002 at 02:13:16 (EDT) Email Address: none Message: Marianne, The article from the L.A. Times contains this, 'The 9th Circuit said that Jennings, 52, should either be retried or released.' Doesn't that mean he might be released? Somewhere you say that there is evidence showing your client may be innocent, but the paper says. 'The 9th Circuit cited several facts linking Jennings to the murder. He had known Newman for much of his life, having lived next door to her at his parents' home. In addition, strapping tape found in Newman's home bearing Jennings' thumb and palm prints matched tape found in his pickup truck. Semen consistent with Jennings' blood type was found on Newman's body. And Jennings volunteered facts about the crime to friends and the police that had not been made public.' You have to admit that doesn't sound too good, 'volunteered facts about the crime to friends and the police that had not been made public' How did he do that, if he didn't do it? Finally this part troubles me. 'He(the defense lawyer) did not seek appointment of additional experts to evaluate Jennings' mental state or the possible effects of methamphetamine on Jennings, even though he knew a syringe had been found in Jennings' car and Oliver knew his client had reported to the police that he had been 'strung out on ... crank for over a year.' Is this supposed to matter? So what if he was a crank junkie? That's no excuse. So the state should spend good money after bad because some poor abused drug addict's lawyer didn't mention a syringe? We(the state) should re-habilitate him at enourmous expense after a new trial with a 'twinkie defense' Remember that? The guy who got aquitted of murder because he ate a twinkie? I don't know, I don't like it.

Subject: Re: Hmmmmm... From: Sir Dave To: Marshall Date Posted: Mon, May 13, 2002 at 03:43:16 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Marshall, I had the same feelings as you when I read about that.

Subject: Differing opinions From: Marianne To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Mon, May 13, 2002 at 11:40:41 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Marshall and Sir Dave: I suspect many people have the same reaction as you do when you read about this case. It's understandable. You don't dwell in the trenches of capital punishment every day as I do. It is not for most. This case came out a certain way because the trial lawyer did not investigate and defend Michael Jennings at all. There are many cases across the country where people have been convicted based on supposedly unimpeachable eye witness testimony, only to have been shown to be absolutely innocent and released from death row. Over the course of several years, 13 people have been released from death row in Illinois -- one person who was within an hour of execution -- because they were shown to be innocent. Does that make you any more confident in the decisions that are made about these cases? The comments in the court's opinion reflect the state of the evidence based on the lawyer's lack of investigation and preparation. There are many troubling forensic issues in the case, and a real question about whether Michael Jennings is the perpetrator. I know this because I have been representing him for 13 years, and have done far more to investigate it than ever occurred to the trial attorney. In any event, you are free to disagree with me about any and all of this. I have seen many injustices committed in these cases, this case among them, and will continue to fight to right those wrongs. Marianne

Subject: Retrial is a certainty From: Marianne To: Marianne Date Posted: Mon, May 13, 2002 at 12:01:18 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Also Marshall, the DA has told the press that he intends to retry the case.

Subject: Do a poll, Sir Dave From: PatC To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Mon, May 13, 2002 at 04:04:07 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: What's the bet that most people will tell you that they also had the same ''feelings'' when they first read about it? I know I did. That's why I deliberately wrote that those ''feelings'' were what my ''heart'' would tell me but that my mind would tell me to tread with caution and always leave room for doubt. Now you know why I don't rely on the judgments of my heart. Feelings are not rational and definitely not something to take into account when death is the penalty. It's a bit final.

Subject: Murder's got a mental component From: Jim To: Marshall Date Posted: Mon, May 13, 2002 at 02:26:42 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Marshall, Not all homicides are murder. There's the physical act and then there's the mental state. I know nothing about this case but what you and I both can read here but I wouldn't be surprised if the live issues have more to do with the guy's mind than his actions. If you were in charge, would you change that? Would you make all homicides the same crime, same penalty?

Subject: Re: Murder's got a mental component From: Marshall To: Jim Date Posted: Mon, May 13, 2002 at 13:05:46 (EDT) Email Address: none Message: Believe me, you don't want to know what I would do if 'I was in charge'. Just kidding. I agree all murders aren't the same, however this particular case we're discussing involves rape and robbery as well. Lock him up and throw away the key? Cut off his...? I don't know.

Subject: irreversable decisions... From: Chuck S. To: Marshall Date Posted: Mon, May 13, 2002 at 14:55:38 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I don't like the idea of murders getting out of jail any more than you do. But then that's assuming that the guy actually did it, AND that he will be released. This news article hasn't gone into any great detail, it's just a summary of previous allegations and prior findings (which could be erroneous). Examining the details is what a trial is for. A new trial will re-examine the evidence, taking into account all the facts available. Far too many people in this country have been executed, and then found innocent after the fact because of new evidence. It is so wrong, and nothing can put it right again. While I believe in being tough on crime, the death penalty is too final. If this man was given the death sentence by a jury based on inaccurate and/or incomplete information, is that right? I worked in law offices for years, and I've seen that things are often not what they appear to be. Sometimes you have to dig for the truth. Everyone deserves a fair trial, no matter who they are or what they appear to have done. While I certainly can appreciate the way you feel about it, I'm sure there is a lot more information to consider than what a brief news article summary will tell us. Things aren't always what they appear to be in a news info-bite. The details can make all the difference. Insuring a fair trial doesn't mean nobody cares about the victim or the pain caused to her family, it just means we care about knowing the complete truth as much as humanly possible, before making irreversable life and death decisions.

Subject: Hear, hear! From: Nige'n'Moley To: gerry Date Posted: Sun, May 12, 2002 at 18:48:07 (EDT) Email Address: nige@redcrow.demon.co.uk Message: State murder in cold blood is gross at the best of times. When the perpetrator is clearly mentally unbalanced, doubly so. We're proud to count Marianne among our friends - not least because you should see what she's like on a night out on the town...

Subject: Good one, Marianne From: Jim To: gerry Date Posted: Sun, May 12, 2002 at 16:17:57 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Excellent. By the way, would you ever consider doing the retrial? I know you normally don't but, well, if I had this much positive mo' on a case and knew it as well as you obviously do, I'd be tempted. Anyway, congratulations indeed.

Subject: You beat me to it, Gerry From: PatC To: gerry Date Posted: Sun, May 12, 2002 at 13:22:28 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yes, congratulations, Marianne. You know that I think it's a controversial case - the kind where my mind says, ''No matter how bad the guy was, I don't like the state to have the power of the death penalty,'' and my heart says, ''Bring back the stocks - this guy is a creep.'' But, no matter what, I do not like the death penalty. It's barbaric and I am very pleased that you won. Here's the story from the San Francisco Chronicle: Court vacates death sentence, orders new murder trial DAVID KRAVETS, Associated Press Writer, Friday, May 10, 2002 (05-10) 16:25 PDT SAN FRANCISCO (AP) -- A federal appeals court Friday overturned the death sentence and conviction of a Contra Costa County man charged with repeatedly stabbing and raping an elderly neighbor in 1982. The 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals ordered a new trial for Michael Jennings on grounds his attorney did not present evidence that Jennings' drug use and mental problems 'contributed' to the brutal slaying of a 63-year-old woman. Jennings, now 52, was convicted of raping, robbing and stabbing to death Violet Newman in her Concord home. Newman was an acquaintance and lived near Jennings' family. It is the seventh time this year the San Francisco-based court has vacated a California death sentence and, in doing so, overturned California Supreme Court rulings sanctioning the executions. California is home to the nation's most clogged death row, with more than 600 condemned men and women. Ten have been executed since executions resumed in 1992. The California attorney general's office said it would ask the circuit to revisit its decision. County prosecutors said they may retry him if the appeals court does not change its mind. Jennings remains in prison pending resolution of the attorney general's appeal. A three-judge panel of the appeals court ruled that Jennings' attorney, Michael Oliver, did not put on evidence that his client was a drug addict, was abused as a child and was mentally unstable. Taken together, the court reasoned, he may not have had the mental capacity to be legally responsible for a capital offense, the court ruled. 'Mr. Oliver's ineffective assistance prejudiced Mr. Jennings by depriving him of the opportunity to help his counsel make informed judgments as to his defense and potentially to have a defense presented that would have negated the mental state necessary for a first-degree murder conviction,' Judge Betty B. Fletcher wrote. Oliver, who no longer is an active member of the California State Bar, could not be reached for comment. Jennings' new attorney, Gilbert Eisenberg, applauded the decision. He said his client was hallucinating and hearing voices following a methamphetamine binge days before the woman was killed. The case is Jennings v. Woodford, 00-99008.

Subject: Thanks all and questions about guilt From: Marianne To: PatC Date Posted: Sun, May 12, 2002 at 14:13:28 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thank you all for your kind comments. I have represented this client since 1989, so this win is particularly gratifying. He gets a new trial on guilt/innocence and then penalty, if the case gets that far. Although a reading of the news coverage suggests otherwise, there is a real question about whether my client is the perpetrator. These issues will all get fleshed out in a new trial. Marianne

Subject: questions about guilt From: PatC To: Marianne Date Posted: Sun, May 12, 2002 at 14:22:32 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You said: ''Although a reading of the news coverage suggests otherwise, there is a real question about whether my client is the perpetrator. These issues will all get fleshed out in a new trial.'' That is one of the strongest arguments against the death penalty (apart from the barbarism and the danger of giving the state that power) - it is too final. Despite advances in DNA and other forensic technology we still can make mistakes - like the lab tech here in the Bay Area who screwed up her work. Well, those weren't mistakes but crimes on her part which may have condemned many an innocent person.

Subject: Re: questions about guilt From: Cynthia To: PatC Date Posted: Sun, May 12, 2002 at 15:26:04 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Actual Innocence by Barry Scheck, Peter Neufeld and Jim Dwyer is an excellent book about how innocent people end up on death row and the work involved to get them released. Tom and I both read it and were amazed at the work that defense attorneys have to undo in order to get a fair trial for their clients. It's a quick read but very educational about the topic of the death penalty, which I am against for any reason. Actual Innocence www.commoncouragepress.com/scheck_innocence.html

Subject: Re: Marianne, you tell'em, girl! From: Roger eDrek To: gerry Date Posted: Sun, May 12, 2002 at 12:26:47 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Indeed!

Subject: Re: Marianne, you tell'em, girl! From: Barbara To: Roger eDrek Date Posted: Sun, May 12, 2002 at 13:00:52 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Kudos, Marianne. I have a hard copy of the article if you'd like me to send it to you. Ciao

Subject: Re: Marianne, you tell'em, girl! From: Cynthia To: Barbara Date Posted: Sun, May 12, 2002 at 13:38:36 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Good work again, Marianne.