Subject: Summer reading From: Headcase To: All Date Posted: Sat, Jul 06, 2002 at 04:40:57 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Recommended reading for all you 'radicals, gadflies,mavericks,rebels,angry young (wo)men and dissidents': Letters to a young contrarian by Christopher Hitchens Well worth the cover price of £16.99

Subject: from ELK From: A premie joke To: All Date Posted: Fri, Jul 05, 2002 at 15:49:14 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Three men and one mango A born again Christian, a Muslim, and a person who recently received Self-Knowledge were marooned on a remote and barren desert island, and had only one mango to eat. That evening they decided that the one who awakens with the most elegant dream eats the mango. The following morning, the Christian said: 'I dreamed that I died, went to heaven and it was all gold'. The Muslim said: 'I dreamed that I died, went to heaven and it was all platinum.' The person with Self-Knowledge said: 'I dreamed that the two of you died and went to heaven, so I already ate the mango and planted the seed!' In truth, consciousness, and bliss. Rajanand Miami, Florida Rajanand would like to correspond with anyone who would like to 'contact me in the honour of sharing this 'Endless L_O_V_ E.' Contact details are available from this site...

Subject: Reminds me of the one... From: PatD To: A premie joke Date Posted: Fri, Jul 05, 2002 at 17:11:29 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ...3 convicts in a prison cell. 'Wotchoo in for'.....armed robbery....'wotchoo get'....7 yrs. 'Wotchoo in for'....fraud....'wotchoo get'......6 mnths. 'Wotchoo in for'....water pistol...????? Whaddya mean water pistol,how can you get banged up for a water pistol. 'Thing is I hate skinheads,water pistol full of petrol...skinhead...match...flooomph' Oh shit, wotchoo get? '20 to the gallon'.

Subject: should be called the selfish knowledge nt From: Moll of Mole To: A premie joke Date Posted: Fri, Jul 05, 2002 at 15:53:19 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: The blame game ... From: Thorin To: All Date Posted: Fri, Jul 05, 2002 at 08:35:47 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: A mate has just rung me and said that when he dies and if he discovers that M is actually the Lord of the Universe he is going to blame me. And all of you guys on F7 for waking him up. :) In the meantime he sends his thanks and good wishes to you guys. He is a shy boy, likes reading a lot but not posting. Love to all, Thorin

Subject: tell him no worries From: janet To: Thorin Date Posted: Sat, Jul 06, 2002 at 05:14:38 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: i already checked it out thoroghly. he's safe. he aint gonna find out no such thing when he gets over there.multiple reports confirm this. seriously.

Subject: not so sure about that, Janet From: cq To: janet Date Posted: Sat, Jul 06, 2002 at 07:02:35 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ... I mean look at St Peter - denies him 3 times, and he ends up as the father of the whole bloody church!

Subject: Re: The lame game ... From: Neville To: Thorin Date Posted: Fri, Jul 05, 2002 at 08:50:29 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: According to M's general doctrine, when we die our personalities go out of the window and all that survives is 'atman'--some sort of impersonal life force. Who gives a damn what happens to 'atman'? So I'm not worried about dying and finding M was right, since all he ever offered was an embroidered form of oblivion. (Finding that Dante was right--now that *would* be a worry.) Neville

Subject: re: my teacher From: a student To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 04, 2002 at 22:42:07 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I am currently involved in a training class at my place of employment. I find myself comparing the teacher of this class to an EX-teacher of mine. My current teacher has made it very clear what the goal is and what we as individuals we must do to accomplish this goal. However, and this is what I find interesting, he has taken responsibility for the overall success of the group. He sees failure as a reflection on his ability to communicate. Comments?

Subject: Re: re: my teacher From: BT To: a student Date Posted: Fri, Jul 05, 2002 at 13:14:37 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It is noble of him to take responsibility for the success of the class, but not necessarily accurate. There are factors in learning that are out of the teacher's control, such as the ability, motivation and level of commitment/interest of the students. Sometimes teachers have to teach resistent learners, especially when giving classes that are mandated. Now, in regard to M. and his teaching. His approach has been to encourage, inspire and motivate. However, he has NEVER given a clue as to what it means to 'cross the ocean of maya' as we used to sing in Arti--which was only possible by Guru's Grace. He has said that he too is learning, and that he will always be three steps ahead of us. He has NEVER said that we are on a path of mastery or that we too may become Masters (whatever that means). So at the same time that he has attempted to encourage and inspire, he has also limited his students. He has set up a Parent/Child relationship with his students, where he is the Parent, and we are the children. The problem with this analogy is that in real life children grow up to become adults. In M's world, there is no potential for the children to grow up. The children remain children, figuratively speaking. But the children are growing up, have grown up. Since in his domain doesn't provide room for this, for spiritual maturation, the premies have no option but to leave M. It reminds me a little of the relationship between Freud and Carl Jung. Jung was Freud's student. At some point Jung broke with Freud, disagreed with him. He had the courage to follow his own calling, his own inspiration, and contributed immeasurably to the field of psychology in his own right. If Freud had been M. and Jung had been a premie, Freud would have discouraged Jung, almost prevented him, from ever spreading his wings. His brilliance, inspiration and contributions would have been lost to the world. It is quite possible that M. has, perhaps unwittingly, stunted the growth of hundreds or thousands of people by insisting that they follow and not question the Master.

Subject: syunted growth, exactly!! (NT) From: The Falcon To: BT Date Posted: Sat, Jul 06, 2002 at 02:30:29 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Really good post, BT From: Anthony To: BT Date Posted: Fri, Jul 05, 2002 at 15:54:06 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Bless him. From: Bryn To: a student Date Posted: Fri, Jul 05, 2002 at 04:41:47 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'He sees failure as a reflection on his ability to communicate.' Thats inspiring, and rings true to me. Your previous teachers goal was to keep himself in his roll as teacher at all costs. So in my case (25 yrs) he too was quite successful in his own dark way! Love Bryn

Subject: Re: re: my teacher From: AV To: a student Date Posted: Fri, Jul 05, 2002 at 04:14:53 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I was speaking to a close friend the other day about teaching; he was saying the sign of a good teacher (among others) is an inbuilt desire for his students to actually excel beyond and exceed the teachers' own learning , rather than keep them in a frame where the student feels they will never reach a certain level, that something of their learning is always impossibly out of reach.. (how depressing..). What's that saying? you teach by learning, and learn by teaching. Makes sense, nothing is static, all is in motion.

Subject: Re: my teacher From: Vicki To: AV Date Posted: Fri, Jul 05, 2002 at 07:14:03 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: As one who works with kids of all ages, one of my greatest joys is when a child catches me in a mistake! I hoot and holler and make a big deal out of it. Why? Because I take kids from square zero who can't read. If they catch me mispronouncing something or mistakenly reading a word, then it means they've learned a quantum amount to get to that point. I don't often make a mistake during a session, and if I do I correct immediately modeling the behaviour, but I love it when they beat me to the punch! Getting excited is such a novel surprise to them. No one ever acknowledges that as progress, just rudeness. I tell them that's the goal, for them to read better than me. I tell their parents I learn more from the kids than they do from me. Sometimes it freaks them out, but it's true. Maybe not the technical stuff, but always always always some insight. Lots of times I learn a new trick through their eyes that helps another child down the road. It's easy to take the 'credit' because they only experience failure until we go through the paces. Really, it is their perseverence, their concentration, their facing the unlearning of poor coping habits and adopting skills, not an easy feat. It is easier to take a child that's never been taught a thing about reading, no matter how old their age, than one who has been taught badly. Watching my kids who are now in college, go through their school years, and even still during these college years, it always strikes me that the more phenomenal the teacher, the more they delight in the student's ability to excel their own. The mediocre and questionable belittle and undermine their students while elevating their own self-exalted status. It is an incredible 'high' when the flow happens. It's like an even exchange of energy that increases without boundaries. If a teacher is sitting on some sort of pie in the sky pedestal that is supported by ego, it's just one of those classes where the kids want to get the grade and get out. Or drop the class. But they are never energized or excited about learning with that person. As a side note, there's a history teacher at the local college. She was so interesting and innovative in how she taught the class. The kids would 'shush' each other if someone was being inconsiderate and making noise, or if they let their cell phone ring, or interrupted her with redundant questions due to lack of attention. My kids would come home babbling with excitement about whatever she taught them that day. She literally had them on the edge of their seats and in the palm of her hand. But she lost them all. How? Her tests were impossible. She structured them in such a befuddling way, with the rationalization that it was for higher order thinking skills. They were not based on the material taught or the books read. The class scores got lower and lower as the semester progressed. Kid's grade points were getting lowered so most dropped her class, even though they loved it. Those that stuck it out, figuring if they studied harder, would make it. Didn't help. These scores completely demoralized this teacher. She started lecturing in a monotone voice, yelling at students, mocking them and making fun of them. She threw it all away. All she could talk about was her grade point in college, in grad school, etc. She never once asked the kids what they learned from her. She just berated them for not doing well on her crazy tests. And some of these kids were honor students. So the class ended on a sour note and the kids warning their friends not to take her class, which was the direct opposite of how the semester began. It was such a disappointment and loss because these kids initially couldn't wait for the days when they had her class. So yes, you are correct, teaching is learning and learning is teaching.

Subject: More fun on EPO!! From: Jean-Michel To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 04, 2002 at 07:47:01 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: First Lord's World tour ever! Including 2 excellent articles: 1/ Washington Post article by Henry Allen visiting Balyouguesswhat at Joan Apter's ..... 2/ I WAS A TEEN-AGE GURU: Story of Maharaj Ji of India, by Peter Greenberg and a couple or 2 of new pictures.

Subject: Who's sari now? From: Sorry To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Fri, Jul 05, 2002 at 05:56:58 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hey, there's those sari's being worn by Sandy Collier and I'm sure Joan Apter and Glenn Whitaker (at his Sat. afternoon X-dressing party). They were right, we did take the Indian thing a little too far. Well, I guess that's all been righted in the revisionist video, 'passages'. Whew! I thought they were lying.

Subject: Prem Pal/George W. Bush From: Gregg To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 04, 2002 at 21:56:57 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: These shenanigans, the early days, you know? They don't mean anything. Say today's PWK's. Just like GWBush's skanky insider trading days have nothing to do with his current presidential practices. What's past is prologue. Happy Independence Day!

Subject: Re: Prem Pal/George W. Bush From: Vicki To: Gregg Date Posted: Fri, Jul 05, 2002 at 07:29:03 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Well, it was all Georgie's lawyer's fault, donchyaknow, due to a clerical error. He did nothing wrong. Hmmmm, seems to be a pattern here. Blame everything on everyone else and admit nothing. Yep, that's the ticket for becoming a president and lord of the universe!

Subject: Memories are made of this... From: PatD To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 04, 2002 at 13:38:25 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks for that JM & whoever kept all this stuff. It's strange seeing it all again & remembering. This bit in particular set my memory going,something I'd entirely forgotten. 'I was studying to be an architect, but I found I was unable to concentrate on my work. I was nervous, restless, and doing very badly,' he said. 'A friend of a friend who had seen the Light suggested I listen to the teachings of the Maharaj Ji as they could be a solution to my problems. 'I took his advice, and eventually was shown the Light. I spent a year in India, and since then my whole life has changed for the better,' he added. 'I have given up smoking, I am now good at my job, and I get on well with my parents for the first time in my life.' On my very 1st visit to Golden Manor ashram,which I only went to because a friend of mine was insistent,I read that in a photocopied booklet of stuff that was there. I thought,'who is this fucked up jerk'. I was good at my job,got on well with my parents,didn't see what smoking had to do with anything. Myself & Frank laughed about that & other things on the train home,but he never went back & I did. A few months later I gave up the job I'd been good at to go & see the Lord of the Universe in India. I suppose the moral is that you're never too old to fuck yourself up.

Subject: Americans: Hally Independence Day NT From: Jethro To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 04, 2002 at 04:55:25 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: nt

Subject: Re: Americans: Happy Independence Day NT From: Jethro To: Jethro Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 04, 2002 at 04:56:45 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: I know this is below me, but... From: gerry To: All Date Posted: Wed, Jul 03, 2002 at 19:43:43 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: (snicker) www.anyboard.net/soc/religion/maharaji/uploads/WWNDANCETITS.jpg

Subject: New old stuff on E¨PO !!! From: Jean-Michel To: All Date Posted: Wed, Jul 03, 2002 at 08:31:51 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Report of the World Peace Tour of Balyogeshwar Shri Sant Ji Maharaj !!!!!! That booklet, as well as lots of other documents escaped from the latest boon fires.

Subject: Re: New old stuff on E¨PO !!! From: Thorin To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Wed, Jul 03, 2002 at 14:41:40 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Bless the cotton socks whoever saved all this stuff! What a blast! I bet that even M would be interested in seeing this. Sheesh what a lot of memories flood back. Always had a soft spot for Venetia. Spent lots of time with her in the early 70's when she came to UK for a few years. She rescued me from a pretty horrendous time I was having at one point and then spent several months living in the same house with her before she went back to Japan. Bumped into her a few times after that. Anyone know what she doing these days? Saphlanand. I heard that during the 80's he was camped out in a tent for ages on the US west coast with a bunch of other premies - presumably hanging round for the lord to arrive by their canvas. He showed me Yoni Mudra technique - instant connection, no hanging around! :) Thorin

Subject: Clarification From: Thorin To: Thorin Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 04, 2002 at 01:32:21 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: In my post above I make a reference to Yoni Mudra Meditation Technique. Just to clarify, my reference to Yoni is only to the meditation technique as described in EPO (http://www.ex-premie.org/papers/medtech.htm#YONI) I was not aware, until after my post, that Yoni could possibly be inferred in other ways. That was not my intention. I hope this is clear and apologise if any other inference was taken. Thorin

Subject: Re: to J-M From: AV To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Wed, Jul 03, 2002 at 10:18:25 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: thank you for this, god!!, time warp...

Subject: Saphalanand was great From: Jean-Michel To: AV Date Posted: Wed, Jul 03, 2002 at 10:25:27 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: a poet. And Joan (Apter I guess) an incredible gopi !

Subject: Re: Saphalanand was great From: Anon To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Wed, Jul 03, 2002 at 11:36:08 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I knew saphlanand, where is he now

Subject: Re: Saphalanand was great From: The Falcon To: Anon Date Posted: Wed, Jul 03, 2002 at 13:43:45 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Last seen in the West Country rightly informing the populace that Knowledge works better without the guru bollocks! lovely soul God bless him.

Subject: (OT) some news on my son From: janet To: All Date Posted: Wed, Jul 03, 2002 at 05:35:14 (PDT) Email Address: mensabrains@webtv.net Message: some of you may remember me reporting here back in may that my 23 yr old son stepan had run away. He of the schizophrenia and mania and delusional beliefs so reminiscent of our own world fantasies back in the 70's. well, here's an update. he is sitting in a psychiatric hospital a short bus ride away from me, he's been captured and hospitalized since may 24th, and been accepting his correct meds for about 4 weeks now. As the meds took effect, his head began to clear and he started to see in retrospect some of the things he did on his spree that damaged us, saw why they were the wrong way to go, and he had, in his own words, several breakthroughs in group therapy in which he cried and felt his feelings and poured out anger and sorrow and hatred and frustration, mostly at me, for being what he viewed as 'so mean and abusive to him' this last 4 years. He had some valid complaints about me which I admitted to him were so, but a good deal of his unhappiness was at my ferocious discipline of not letting him just wander and drift in his naive fantasies in his imaginary concept of reality while he lived under the same roof I did. I had to be relentless and demanding and insistent, to get him to stay grounded in the real world and the present circumstances, otherwise he just floated away into intricate, utterly unrelatable mind plays that rendered him beyond anyone's understanding and reach. It would reveal itself in his speech when endeavoring to have a conversation, and in his writings, when he would come to me with journals he kept, trying to share his thoughts on paper. So I had evolved a daily practice of directing him to perform the needful chores around the house and yard, seeing that he checked the cat's dishes and refilled them every morning at waking, paid attention to the trash and took it out whenever it filled, had him do gardening and yardwork with me outside, apprenticed him to doing the house bills and budget every month with me, including reconciling his checkbook and keeping an eye on our longterm pattern of money spending. He did'nt understand why I overruled his notions of what to take at college, and wanted to take things either too hard for him to succeed in, or classes that wouldnt give him anything he could realistically do anything with, toward a life means of working and supporting himself. I went thru the catalog and marked out what he could realistically attend and have a hope of understanding and turning toward more development with his actual abilities. He wanted to know why I picked those, but when I tried to tell him, he could not absorb and comprehend my answers. It was maddening and heartbbreaking. So while the meds seem to have given him back some clarity and some measure of being able to listen and follow some communication, he still evidences trouble with conversations and important ideas that are critical and vital to his being able to survive in the world. Today when the sun comes up, the hospital will transport him miles out into the sav fernando valley to an isolated brick building facing the industrial railyards, known as division 95 of the superior court. mental health court. or more accurately, mental illness court. he is being put before the state as a candidate for conservatorship, AGAIN, aas in the winter of 98-99, the last time he had to be hospitalized for serious delusional impairment. last time, I stepped forward and volunteered to be his conservator. I did thale up until this past january. I let it lapse in january becse i felt he had been showing progress in comprehending how to handle his responsibilities as an adult, and felt that we could take the chance and take the training wheels off and see how he did without being 'baby sat'. everyone had been teling me i had done an truly incredible job, taking him over and getting him into shape in just 4 years. but as you heard here, as soon as he beleived the conservatorship was over, he took off and went on this spree across the country, putting everyone thru uproar and chaos, costing hundreds of dollars as he went, disturbing people who didnt want to see him, weren't prepared to have him, couldnt afford the disruption of his presence to their work week, their home and family life, their budget, their health--and threw me into turmoil back home, whith not knowing whether i would ever see him again, not knowing what to do with him money, about my rent and bills without him, and even my future and if I would be forced to give up where i live. he did make his way home by mid may, but due to a bizarre argument we had while i tried to make him understand why we were mad at him and how much he cost us to cope with his trip, he called the police--he said, 'to 5150 me before i did it to him'. well, they came, listened to him babble incoherently for an hour, looked at my dossier of his mental history, and the best they could advise him was to get his things and go! !!!! so he grabbed his knapsack, took no coat, and vanished up the street to the beach. and lived as a homeless desperate bum for another week in the immediate neighborhood. this was senseless. word got back to me via phone calls he made to his father on th east coast, that he had it in his mind that he was afraid to come home, or thought he couldnt, or that i didnt want him to. none of which was so. his caseworker, whom he still trusted enough to keep in touch with, arranged for him to enter a live in program called jump street. he came home to get some things and was supposedly off to eneter the program, but he never showed up there. late that night, he appeared on the porch of a woman he was infatuated with, harrassing her, serenading her outside, trying her locks and windows trying to break in, and she finally did what none of us could do- she had him 5150'd by the police at last. thus his spree came to an end. when the sun coms up toay, I am faced with the spectre again of making a the long trip from the beach to the valley railyards, a 2 hour bus trip to be at court by 830am, to sit thru another hearing in a courtroom packed with crazies, their doctors, their lawyers, their families, and face the prospect again of whether to be his conservator again. the hospital has tried to comfort me by saying i don't have to go, that i don't have to play the heavy this time; that they are going to do it for me and for everybody. his doctor will tell the judge Step should go into long term care in a locked facility, which is why he should be conserved. he fits the legal definition of being gravely disabled and unable to care for himself rightly. His notion of all he needs is 'someone he can stay with so he can sign out of the hospital'. he has been calling every phone number he ever saved, of anyone he ever met anywhere, asking this of them so he can get out. he has no access to his disability checks, so any money would have to be bummed from others. I have a thousand dollars in the bank for him, but he can't get that thru his head despite m explaining it to him repeatedly. He fights me when i try to explain that it is unethical and morally not right to hit on people to pay for him when he can pay his own way. he asked me to buy him a 250 minute phone card [more than 4 hours worth of phone calls] which i did, and then i learned he is still calling everyone collect and saying the card isn't useful for that! I woke yesterday and burst into tears before the day began. My root being doesnt want to do this again. I have deep rage that I feel i was made a chump of. I feel like i poured my heart and soul into this last 4 years and i feel like he kicked it in the teeth when given the chance to show what he had learned. I don't want to go down that road again. I asked the public guardian what will happen if he is conserved but I refuse to take the job. She said he will be given to one of their conservators who handles a whole caseload of of such people. The court keeps a list. I have done some looking into this. There are professional conservators, who make a career of watching the lists of the court business, and bidding on the cases of people too impaired to handle their own estates. There is no watchdog agency to keep these people honest. It is a known occurrence for these people to embezzle the wealth of their charges and enrich themselves illegally, because they can. No one checks up on them to see if they are doing what they say they are, the court doesnt have the resources, budget or personnel to monitor what they do, and to ascertain by alternate means whther these conservators actuallyprovide for their charges or ethically preserve their estates. No one brings it to the attention of the law unless someone like a friend or an alert party who knows the conservatee blows a whistle and demands investigation. And even then, nothing might be done. I have met two women locally who were supposedly under conservatorship. one lived homelss in the streets, one lived in a board and care home. both had the same complaints: netierh of them could find out who their conservator was. neither knew their names. neither had a way to reach their conservator. both of them said their conservator never called them, never met them, never came to see them, never checked on their welfare, never expended any effort to see that their basic needs were being met, never gave them any of their money , and neither of them could see why the deal existed at all, given these truths. both of them wanted to know how to get out from under conservatorship and have the control of their lives back legally, sonce conservatorship wasn't doing anything for them but making their way harder and weirder to live by. intheir case, i told each of them to call the court themselves, say who they were, ask to know who their conservators were and a way to reach them, and le they were talking to the court, to get the names of their advocates , kind of like the public defender, who puts their side of the issue to the judge, and demand a hearing be held so that they could each tell the court what their conservator was really doing [not doing] for them and that they wanted control of their affairs bafck to themselves. Now i am faced with this same liklihood with my son. If i refuse to step into the job again, today, then someone wil be handed his case. Someone he doesnt know, that i dont know, that will likely treat him the same as these two women who sought my advice. if i do nothing, and let the system take its course, stepan will be kept in the hospital until a bed opens up at a facility somewhere, and then he will be moved there and processed in as a longterm patient, live in and locked. I will have to turn over care of all his income to the new agent, and there goes the second income that keeps me from losing this house. there goes my internet access. you may not see me anymore. this is his webtv i use to come here. if i cut this boat adrift and let this happen, he gets a taste of how impersonal and uncaring and sterile the world has to be, once you're on your own in life... and i face the unknown of letting go of this house and where to move to next. and my saddest worry is what to do with my seven cats, who are so attached to me they get up and follow me around in a pack, crying, when i take a walk up the street, or just get out of bed to visit the bathroom in the dead of night. cats don't do well with homelessness in the human world. i would have to find a new situation that would let me have that many, and that isnt likely in a city. i admit that ever since i have been a mother, I have become more and more of a control freak. I don't feel at ease with letting events just take their course and watching it. People have pointed out to me that i have trouble accepting help. Right now i have an odd mixed blessingin my house, while stepan is in the hospital. I tapped a former roommate-a younger man i helped in denver who moved to LA with me 9 years ago, whom i got on SSI, who lives rougher than i prefer to. He comes back periodically when he needs me, and when i need him, and he grumblingly stepped into the vacancy created when my son failed to be here for the rent in may. he's using my son's room as his own and paying partial rent for it, and he has a couple of street friends, a young man and woman, who he wanted to share his generosity with by letting them benefit from his having housing. I have gone back and forth about his having them here. Some days i flare and ask why theyre still here. Other days I see the boon in aving them around. They cook for us, they like to do work here, the girl is a apt pupil who loves to come ask me wuestions and tell me her dreams and her hopes and her problems, and i have to admit that while the house is sometimes a bit fuller than I'm used to, it is also running somehwat better, and as my friend says, he's 'de-schizophrenicizing' the vibe wherever he can. the dishes are getting done, the trash is going out, we are all sleeping on a normal schedule, up days, down nights, the groceries are getting kept stocked so we all eat normal meals, the cats are being cared for and loved, and most interesting of all, we handle one anothers problem moods with balance, humor, compassion and wisdom. She has insecurity attacks. she cries, she doesnt trust, she imagines terrible things and begs the fellow not to gohang out with his dangerous friends. We all talk her through these till she's better and c let him leave her for the dya. The roommate has mood swings. He gets stormy and mad and unhappy. They can turn into tantrums and he gets violent and explosive, not at others, but at himself or at huge distant targets like the government. Or he gets depressed. We all coddle him, tease him, reason with him, inquire about his state of mind, until he lets it go and comes back to rejoin the human race. his friend has alternate personalities. Sometimes he's the calm, rational, helpful, analytical advisor sometimes he;s the silly, mischeivous, lazy, goodtime boy who can't ake anything seriously. and sometimes, he's the dangerous, brooding, angry, tense fight looking for a victim. when number three rears its head, I get strong and authoritarian and step between he and his target and command him to walk away and go think about himself. his friend goes with him and sympatizes and reasons with him, reminds him of all they've seen and done together, maybe gets him to laugh and breaks the spell and the clouds lift. when he comes back, his girl sits him down and amazes him by calling all of his problems for what they are, and shows him in an instant how cleanly thay can be dealt with, and he's grateful to her for being so direct and unafraid and honest. and then theres me. I get these irrational streaks of getting mad for no real reason. I get mad because the dishes are thrown in the sink the wrong way. I get mad because the TV has been on since dawn. I get mad becuase the porch looks like a flophouse and it should be neat. I get mad becuase the 12 pak of sprite i bought for myself is all gone before i could have more than one. i get mad because people arent calling the cats in at sundown. I get mad just because people are there when i get up in the morning. i can be a rageaholic. but each one of them has a different way of answering me when i go into one of these streaks. the roomate reasonably apologizes and tells me why it had to be like that. his friend points out the benefits of why it is like that. and the girl logically counters me with my own flaws in reasoning and how if i wanted something different, i need to say so and show them what i want. and I smile as light dawns and i realize, these kids arent afraid of me, and they all are right, and what the hell, my way wasnt that great when you really look at it after all. so i am learning to ease up and be flexible and enjoy the contributions of having others do things their way. and i am secretly grateful that my roaring temper doesnt scare anybody, becuase all it really is, is a smokescreen for my own insecurities. and these guys have enough of their own confidence in their own views of how to do it, that my dominance gets reasoned out of its control trip, and down to an equal footing, before its had time to really get up a head of steam and do damage i would regret later. so the day is upon me. do i go? do i stay home and let the system take its course? how sick is my son, and will i do him better by letting them keep him in the hospital setting, or by just falling back into the way it was before? emotionally i would like to believe in the dream, to believe he could come home and uerstnad how to be in thgreater milieu. but he crashes that illusion all the time. having him home thruthfully fills me with anguish, at being put through this again. I need a break from him, and he from me, and while being locked in with a bunch of muttering, droolng people who talk like oblivious children may not be a prospect he relishes, maybe that wil spur him to do some real work on himself and his illness, to graduate out of there.and the staff is trained to handle it, where i ain't. the problem with being his caretaker and conservator is that it's a 24-7 job. at least the hospital staff goes home at night and gets days off. when he lived home, i didnt get that. i worried when he was gone, i had the weirdenss when he was home, and wasnt sure if i had to go out for myself. i dont handle his mental disorder very well. i yell, i get furious, i dont have enough patience for his inability to follow what i say or what i mean. i dont make a very good teacher to him. so maybe theres no shame in letting someone else handle it. maybe theres a lesson to be realized in not taking responsibility for something that you discover you can't handle as well as you thought you could. i guess i have to admit defeat or failure and let this one be handled by those who do it for a living, and see how this works instead. my family isnt accusing me of slacking. they say they dont blame me for taking this stance. no one is beating me over the head for what i am doing. in fact, my two closest frineds are trying to encourage me not to bring him home yet. they see with clearer eyes than I do, and they see how i am blinding myself to the truth because it's so discouraging and demoralizing to face. They are firmly against his being released to return to live here yet. And one of them has lived thru this herself for 40 years. I f anyone can tell about it with conviction, its her. she's walked the walk. but i cried. I dont want to go thru this again. the alarm went off to wake me to get up to go, and here i am typing. I'm already up. But it doesnt feel like i want to get up and dress and go downtown. Some part of my fundamental dignity is entrenched, rigid, immovable, saying ' I will not be made a fool of twice. You're not getting me to go down there and put myself thru that again. I act to preserve me, first'. I wonder how much of my changed disposition owes to my having exited the cult? The last time this happened, I wasn't out yet. I was still trying to live out the selfless dictum to be an instrument, to give all in service, to dedicate everything to demonstrating how wonderful Knowledge worked. I broke that programming with the help of all of you, in october of 2000, i think. People say I'm more real since then. They say the sense of pretending, of patronizing goody two shoes that used to surround me, has ended. I guess I am letting myself be selfish when i feel to be, now, and tho still waiting to see what happens when i do, somewhat afraid of consequences, nothing bad happens of it. Here's another interesting thing I notice: I know in myself that i 'could' reach deep down into my depths and pull up some kind of power to be a hero and totally bowl enveryone over with the strength i could display and wield, here. but ya know what? I just dont wanna. I dont feel like it. I'm tired. I've done plenty of that. Paid my dues. Get someone else, if you want one. Not me. I'm outta that business. and i think by you guys letting write this here, you've helped me come to peace with my question today. thank you for letting me do this here. i had to cme tell you, because you're my community. we have continuity. you are the people who go back thru time with me, who i dont have to explain my life to, because you all lived it. you understand the weird notions that hamper my thinking straight, in just having it be allright to be me. the cult thinking is still hanging me up and impairing my being able to know what i really am, and just trying to express this has helped me see into myself this morning. stay tuned for future insights, as i reach them. who ever thought being yourself would be so confusing? yours, janet

Subject: Re: (OT) some news on my son From: Bolly To: janet Date Posted: Sat, Jul 06, 2002 at 03:26:36 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Janet I read your post and sympathise with your situation, I don't know if you are a lone parent but it reads that way. I have brought my children up alone and am aware that maintaining a proper perspective on things is really difficult. About your sons college courses, I think we all panic when our potential rocket scientist lingers in the ballet class too long. By which I mean that we tend to want them to do what we are comfortable seeing them engaged in. My youngest has a very definite ambition, so like the attentive parent I take myself to be I marked out a route map towards its realisation and spoon fed her the directions. She picked up my efforts threw them over her shoulder into the tip and went her own sweet way. We thimk having gone through life and found the potholes we can direct our offspring to avoid them. We can't, and some times it is very painfull to see them stumble and fall. Equally it is hugely enjoyable to see them acheive in an area we never knew they were aware of. The line between guidance and control is easily blurred, all parents do it. You need some distance between yourself and Stepan I hope things work out well for both of you. Pick up some of your own interests and maybe find some more uplifting housemates. Love and best wishes Bolly

Subject: Re: (OT) some news on my son From: bill To: janet Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 04, 2002 at 15:25:56 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: HI JANET, Dont forget, the local library has internet for use in coming here. Sounds like you should send this to your folks and your ex. It is honest and it will explain why you are turning him over to the state folks. There are a lot of very good state workers and I trust that your son will get the good one. I get the impression from your post that you are making the correct decision and I hope you will be trusting in your sense of what to do. The meds and therapy may be having a long term effect and this could be a good turn in the road. He may need a very different enviroment to help jolt the change and You may be on the verge of a good era for him. Keep us informed ! Love from Connecticut !

Subject: One question, Janet From: Jerry To: janet Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 04, 2002 at 15:20:23 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Does you son read this site?

Subject: Re: (OT) some news on my son From: Anthony To: janet Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 04, 2002 at 11:02:03 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi, Janet, I've only posted here once before, but I want you to know I feel very greatly with you. Without going into your personal details, a friend of mine locally had enormous problems with her son for similar reasons to yours. They recently found a medication which has sorted him out extremely well. Maybe you will find this with Stepan. I hope so! I don't know if this is relevant at this moment, but it has truly made a great difference. Love, Anthony

Subject: Re: (OT) some news on my son From: Cynthia To: janet Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 04, 2002 at 08:35:46 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Janet, I am in no position to give parental advice, not ever being a parent. How ever you look at this situation it doesn't come out perfectly. You son has been a source of great pain and you've made much effort to take care of him. I can't imagine that feeling, regardless of his age. The connection between mother and child never breaks. That said, you have to take care of yourself first. If you don't feel well for whatever reasons, he won't feel well. I think that if you do contact your U.S. Rep. or Senators they could be of possible help (besides legislation). They have a lot of power and gateways into any system which they want to poke their noses into. Give it a try, to assure yourself that whoever has conservatorship is held responsible. You'd be surprised what these power brokers can do. When I applied for SSD several years ago, I was a mess. I called my Senator Pat Leahy and his office continuously followed up with the SSA on my behalf. Many of my acquaintances couldn't believe that I got approval on the first round. And Pat Leahy is a very busy Senator--these folks have staff whose purpose is to assist their constituency with just these types of situations and problems. 'The System.' Other than that, I don't judge anything you've done because it's your life. I only wish you health and peace about this. Letting go is very difficult. Holding on can exacerbate your son's problem as well as be more crazy making for you. Letting go is grief-making. Talk about a rock and a hard place. That Step is so impaired by his mental illness adds so much to your life story and problems. And please try to forgive yourself for any mistakes you have made (in your own estimation). Letting go might be what's needed most for you right now. Celebrate Independence Day for yourself. Give yourself a son-free day. Just one day. And give yourself some comfort...I know you know how to do that. I'm glad you posted this because of the recent RE blow-up, your rejection from joining RE, bring it here. Not all of us are open books with our life situations, but this is a BB for discussing things that are going on in our lifes. You've got courage, Janet! With love and concern, Cynthia

Subject: I endorse Cynthia's post 100% [nt] From: Carlos - To Janet - To: Cynthia Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 04, 2002 at 17:35:05 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: (OT) some news on my son From: Carlos - To Janet To: janet Date Posted: Wed, Jul 03, 2002 at 22:37:12 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I only live 40 or 50 miles South of you. I don't know how I could be of help to you; I suspect I probably couldn't do anything other than be 1 more person you could call if your head got twisted. But I can't even do that unless we work out someway I can give you my eMail address and/or phone #. I have an old eMail address for PatC. And I trust him not to give my number/eMail URL to anyone without my permission. Do you have a way to reach him? Or Katie and Brian? who I also have an eMail address of? There pretty much aren't any other exes whom I trust that would be likely to be willing to be middlemen whose eMail URLs I have. And you and I are both too likely, IMO, to be targets of the bongos for me to be comfortable just posting my eMail URL or phone. My heart ached in sympathy for you after just a couple of paragraphs. I don't have a lot of faith in the power of prayer to achieve anything except self programming; any God powerful enough to be useful to ask for a boon seems, to me, to most likely be beyond being able to be influenced by bargaining. But asking for mercy and compassion for you, and guidance, may not be bargaining. And it can't hurt. So I'll beg for a boon, on your behalf. Be gentle to yourself as you go thru this. Best wishes, always.

Subject: Hey Carlos and Janet... From: gerry To: Carlos - To Janet Date Posted: Fri, Jul 05, 2002 at 15:02:03 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: If you were having this conversation on Forum Eight, you could send each other private messages only you two could read! F8 www.anyboard.net/soc/religion/maharaji/index.html

Subject: Re: Hey Carlos and Janet... From: Carlos - To Gerry To: gerry Date Posted: Fri, Jul 05, 2002 at 20:41:42 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: That is a great feature, and I thank you for pointing it out!

Subject: use my email i posted. From: janet To: Carlos - To Janet Date Posted: Wed, Jul 03, 2002 at 23:16:41 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: no biggie there. write to me at that email adress.

Subject: Re: (OT) some news on my son From: PatW To: janet Date Posted: Wed, Jul 03, 2002 at 15:42:44 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Wow...we're living worlds apart - sort of - but I empathise with you over what you must be going through with your son. I have good friends who have mental problems and some in the family too. It's all too common. Thanks for your frank outpouring. I don't really know what to say other than I read through your entire communique and it had quite an impact. Good luck with it all...try sneaking some of the 12 pack into a private corner! (reminds me of the ashram!) and give the cats a long-distance cuddle from me.

Subject: Re: (OT) some news on my son From: Richard To: PatW Date Posted: Wed, Jul 03, 2002 at 21:15:58 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: All I can say is I hope that resolution comes for you, Step and everyone concerned. Love, Richard

Subject: Re: (OT) some news on my son From: A mom To: Richard Date Posted: Wed, Jul 03, 2002 at 22:11:45 (PDT) Email Address: none Message: Janet I could feel the confusion. You probably are at the end of your day but I wanted to share what stood out for me. Whatever the situation, a 24 year old will not cope very well if you regard him and his rent money as the key factor in whether you keep your home or not. That is enough pressure to freak a normal 24 year old right out. I hope you keep your house if thats what you want via borders or whoever, but that your son is released from that responsiblity in your head. The stress you feel about that/cats ect must be unbearable to him but as an adult he should never be that infused into your livelyhood. How can he ever become /feel self sufficient if there is that dependency by you on him?' Hope this doesnt freak you right out.

Subject: Re: (OT) some news on my son From: Vicki To: A mom Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 04, 2002 at 06:33:46 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Janet, I truly hope things go well for your son. You've put a lot of effort into his health. I really don't know much about mental health conditions other than anxiety disorder, but it must be such an all consuming thing. I watched the movie 'Beautiful Mind'. Maybe it's semi accurate with the typical Hollywood twist. Have you tried your state legislature representative? It sounds like conservatorship needs revamped and legislation rewritten. If you chose to go the route of having someone else do it, your son at least has someone to watch over the conservator they assign. Maybe this is the time in your life not only for your son, but also yourself to have a fresh beginning. Someone with your IQ shouldn't have to go through life stressing about financial security. Now that you don't have to put your energies into Maharaji and EV, you can put them into yourself. I'm sure it would involve some big effort, but in a couple of years you could be way better off. There's a great paperbook called 'How to talk so your kids will listen, and listen so your kids will talk.' It's great for repatterning verbally interacting with kids. Doesn't matter how young or how old. It can also help you see how you should have been talked to as well. If you have rage issues, chances are they are a product of your own childhood. But that's probably not news to you! Best of luck Janet, to you and your son.

Subject: Maharaji Phrases to Remember... From: Cynthia To: All Date Posted: Tues, Jul 02, 2002 at 13:37:42 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi, I just remembered a long time ago, early 70s I think, when Maharaji was talking about propagation. He said that 1 + 1 equals 11, not 2. Anyone remember when he said that? Obviously talking about how many people would come to k if we told one person, and another, and another told..... Math challenged Maharaji.

Subject: Re: Maharaji Phrases to Remember... From: Vicki To: Cynthia Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 04, 2002 at 06:39:09 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: He said that so many times. Over and over and over through the years. Propagation equals premies being little salesmen/women so he stays off the hook legally .

Subject: i figured it meant: From: janet To: Cynthia Date Posted: Wed, Jul 03, 2002 at 06:08:38 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: when one person tells you what they think, it only has the force of their individual way of interpreting the world. opinions are like assholes, everyobody has one, kind of thing. one person's beleif doesnt count for much. but if two people come down the street, both trumpeting the same exact assertions, because theyre both in the same cult, there is a power in that because no two people everyagree on anything exactly the same in life. so it makes them seem bigger--they equal 11--to others who never see that kind of total reinforcement of what the other has to say. well of course it seems bigger. what they are really bringing word of is soemthing huge--the cult. something that feeds off the energy of thousands of members who are all being told to erase their egos and do everything for the master. of course theres going to be a sense of something much vaster talking than just humble little them! there is! they have made the cult greater than themselves and come acting as its mouthpiece. in that case, one and one do make eleven. together, going out advertising for joiners, they speak for more than just one or the other or the two of them. but you know, that math works to the opposite, too: if one person knows right from wrong, and does a worng, its on their head alone. if another does likewise, its on their head alone. but if they eachknow right from wrong, and they agree to collude in the wrong, their sin is multiplied accordingly, because neither one persuaded the other to desist and honor the right. so in that case, 1 and 1 also make 11. so if they each did it because a third, the leader, asked them to, doesnt that bump it up to 111? and for every additional person who drops their conscience and runs to take part in the wrongdoing, doesnt that bump the impact up by another order of magnitude? another individual corrupting themselves voluntarily, when they knew right from wrong? that math cuts both ways.

Subject: A Glastonbury Romance.. From: Anthony To: All Date Posted: Tues, Jul 02, 2002 at 01:23:37 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I was going to put this on the Glastonbury thread, but it's vanished. When thinking only of the dope and the God realisation of those times, please spare a thought for those other touching little personal stories... Glastonbury Fayre was in 1971. The festival in 1970 was actually at Shepton Mallet, some miles from Glastonbury. I travelled down there with a bunch of profiteers from Portobello Road, London. I was on a course to teach English to foreigners, and was supporting myself selling hot dogs and helium-filled balloons with these rascals at weekends at all the fairs. The honcho was an ex-boxer, Eric. His wife was a peroxide blonde who wore skin-tight white leather flairs. We travelled to Shepton Mallet in a small convoy of vans. When we arrived, We all leapt out, Eric handed myself and a couple of others fake rosettes with Usher on, and we proceeded to direct the traffic wherever we wanted, while the rest of the gang off-loaded hot-dog barrows and raced to set them up at the prime locations before the rivals arrived. He then instructed us to sell frankfurters for 2/- and hamburgers for 2/6. Even I thought that a bit outrageous, so I gradually lowered the price to what I thought sustainable. Many starving freaks received dogs at knock-down prices. My karma was rewarded in the form of a pretty nurse from Oswestry who picked me up. We went to the pub that night (on the takings), and a penniless guy I bought a pint gave me a meaningful gaze and a good lump of dope. The nurse and I smoked it, fondling each other to the music of Ten Years After or Traffic. As the night drew in it got really cold, so the final sex was postponed. She went back to her tiny tent (shared with a friend), I to the van, among the skinheads. I looked for her the next day where we had arranged to meet, but she failed to show. Crestfallen, I returned to the gang. Eric looked at me sideways and grunted: ‘Did you fuck ‘er?’ I admitted I hadn’t. ‘You’ll not see ‘er again, then.’ Everyone agreed. I toured the site for quite a while, unwilling to accept the gross philosophy of life of the racketeers. But I never saw her again.. If she’s reading this, can she please send the full money for the hamburger I gave her.

Subject: Ah, lovely! From: Romancingthe Doc To: Anthony Date Posted: Wed, Jul 03, 2002 at 01:40:34 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: he he, yes, absolutely correct. Shepton Mallett - my mother had a good friend down there and I was shipped out of London to her place in mid 1970 in a last ditch attempt to get me away from all those 'horrible hippie types ' in London' that she loathed. Never mind they were from schools like Chaterhouse, Wellington and Rugby :) So I stayed near the site and was longing for the next festival which I hoped would be there but I believe the locals put up enough resistance so it moved to the spot near the Tor. i also fell for a lovely girl at Glastonbury but didn't bed her, oh no, I was completely lost in a swoon over the deep and cosmic significance of our union. In fact I was so befuddled with notions of the greatest ever romance that I failed to notice that she wanted to bonk. I felt it could wait - she thought otherwise. Another broken dream. Doc - who gave up romance 30 years later when all that was left of his heart was a small pile of finely shredded wheatmeal. If you're reading this Mo, thanks for coming to Blandford later on and living with me, I still adore you - sob

Subject: Re: Ah, lovely! From: Anthony To: Romancingthe Doc Date Posted: Wed, Jul 03, 2002 at 02:15:33 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Christ, you're even more pussy-struck than I am, which is saying a lot! Incidentally, are you the same Doc as David Roupell over on Symposium? Confused Romantic

Subject: I own one From: Lurker To: Anthony Date Posted: Wed, Jul 03, 2002 at 13:10:37 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hey Anth & crew. I own one and don't appreciate your choice of words. It's not just guys visiting the forum, you know.

Subject: To Lurker From: The Falcon To: Lurker Date Posted: Wed, Jul 03, 2002 at 13:49:19 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Good for you! I am not in the least sexist but have been (and still am) a devotee of the Yoni-the gateway to the infinite sun! Please forgive me (but some things will never change) Love The Falcon (who refuses to be demonised by the politically correct)

Subject: Re: Ah, lovely! From: RomanceDoc To: Anthony Date Posted: Wed, Jul 03, 2002 at 04:24:53 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yes I am. Guilty as charged :( Doc - who wan't so much pussy-struck but more deluded and fooled by the Fairy Princess Syndrome in which the pussy gets conspicuously little attention, much to the annoyance of the owner! ;)

Subject: Question, Doc From: Anthony To: RomanceDoc Date Posted: Wed, Jul 03, 2002 at 08:25:04 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yeah, the Fairy Princess Syndrome, I know it well. Change it to the Stainless Gopi Syndrome, and I've known that too. So If you're David Roupell, who a couple of weeks ago was painted as the wicked Svengali type premie villain, how come you're fixing a reunion with old mates from the WPC, who're now exes? Or have I got something wrong? Does ex-membership of a paramilitary spiritual corps transcend all other considerations? :)

Subject: the naked Emperor syndrome From: villainDoc To: Anthony Date Posted: Fri, Jul 05, 2002 at 23:15:37 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It's no secret Anthiny, that there are people here who are seething with hate and resentment. Unfortunately they do not have pleasant, rewarding relationship or fulfilling lives and this is cleasrly evidenced by their attacks on people like me - out of the blue - in a thread that has nothing to do with them. In other words - they scour the forums LOOKING for people to shit all over. This is why M Blathers was deemed a geniune cyberstalker and no, it wasn't a joke, raher an expose. My advice to you is to deal with me as you find me (ie:by engaging me face to face as you are) and have a look at some of my posts on LG and Symp. Within a week or so you'll get a pretty good idea of where I'm coming from. And from that be able to glean where I am at. ;) What the haters so quickly forget (in their rush to demonise people) is that.... where we are coming from NOW is all that counts ;(

Subject: Anthony, please clarify From: Bolly To: Anthony Date Posted: Fri, Jul 05, 2002 at 06:22:20 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi! I'll take another look at those reminiscing posts.Is this David Roupel super premie? At the moment I only have limited timed internet access, but am trying to recall was there not a post or three when I had misgivings about the responses. Yours Bolly, sorry if I have encouraged this, nostalgia always gets me.

Subject: Re: Anthony, please clarify From: Anthony To: Bolly Date Posted: Fri, Jul 05, 2002 at 08:18:50 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi, Bolly, Doc appears in the various posts below reminiscing about the WPC. I thought from your thread Excite DocReunion you were having some reunion, which seemed odd in that a) he lives in Australia, I think and b) he's an ultra-premie who used to be much maligned on F7. So, I'm confused. He seems to have a human enough side, from the present thread, however. I see you've scored, on your Maturing Gracefully thread. Maybe it's the man of your dreams...

Subject: David Roupel...... From: The Falcon To: Anthony Date Posted: Fri, Jul 05, 2002 at 09:16:38 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: is questioning although there is no way that he will cop to it yet. There is absolutely no other reason psychologically why he continues to post here. Inexplicable (to me).This is not my wishful thinking, I really don't care what people choose to do with their lives (or genitalia or money etc. etc.) He has been, to date, gracious to me personally and I do take people as I find them (even in cyberspace)although Cerise has some answering to do????!!! In time all these 'ultra-premies'will awake from the dream because the dream is full of holes. In time, in time! Let us have the compassion to be there for them when the dream ends. This is not a jest!! Actually, in my life-long quest not to be demonised by anything politically correct, let me say I do think that (with the exception of Cerise who I have heard looks ravishing in black stockings -come on, friends, we have all got sub-persnalities, this is David's) DR could be quite fun to hang out with if, and it is a big if, he could drop the guru-bollocks for an evening. Seriously, a weekend with my lot would certainly be the initiation he is really looking for, file the guru, bring the credit card! This is (half) a jest! all the best-no animosity whatsoever. The Falcon (bringing home the rabbits in red g-strings (an in-joke!), voles, mice and any other small creature available)

Subject: Good Onya Falcon :) From: OrnithologistDoc To: The Falcon Date Posted: Fri, Jul 05, 2002 at 23:29:20 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I greatly appreciate your kind and true words. Long may you fly high in the sky, enjoy the view and swoop down to pick up whatever tasty morsels your sharp eyes alight on. :) Doc - who totally respects posters who treat others face to face post by post.

Subject: Re: David Roupel...... From: Anthony To: The Falcon Date Posted: Fri, Jul 05, 2002 at 15:43:45 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yes, not having been around when all the bad stuff was happening, I think he sounds a nice guy in many ways, too. If you read the posts below when he's reminiscing about his WPC days, he says in one something like: Yes, we were in a cult, weren't we? Suggesting he thinks DLM/EV were a cult, but the present scene isn't. I'd like to know how he thinks things have changed, and the answer to the most important question: what are people told about Maharaji himself now: Is he supposed to be only some benevolent teacher, or are they taught to believe he is a lot,lot more?

Subject: Anthony From: debaterDoc To: Anthony Date Posted: Fri, Jul 05, 2002 at 23:44:34 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Anthony, I am interested in pursuing some of your questions re 'how things are different' and how M is spoken about etc. I suggest you post a message on the Life's Great forum where we can discuss these things in a place that does not have lurking stonefish like Miss Blatherer who can't keep her dark thoughts to herself. hotboards.com/plus/plus.mirage?who=premieforum cheers, ContemplativeDoc

Subject: Roupell and deception - exercise caution From: Marianne To: Anthony Date Posted: Fri, Jul 05, 2002 at 19:18:14 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Anthony: Sure Roupell sounds like a decent enough guy. He's been at least ten different people on this forum. His first foray here was as a teenage girl, child of devout premies, named Cerise. Cerise laughed about the extreme sexual abuse perpetrated upon premie children by Mahatma Jagdeo, and said 'she' did not care if one of the sex abuse victims had been raped by a herd of elephants. Roupell has applauded cyber attacks on ex-premies, and has repeatedly threatened to disrupt this forum. He's not worthy of anyone's trust here, as his behaviour has shown. His recent nice guy persona is just another one of his many changing facades, none of which is genuine. Buyer beware. Marianne

Subject: You are one sad case Blathers From: ContemptuousDoc To: Marianne Date Posted: Fri, Jul 05, 2002 at 22:52:23 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'll wager that whenever you look up into the night sky you only see the Dark Side Of The Moon. Right? Ah, it's lonely at the top ain't it? Breath woman, breathe. ...and remember, it's people like you who gave this place it's well earned disgusting reputation. But now that it is a much improved cyberspace station, perhaps it's time people like youself desisted from posting? Oh yea and...you're a lawyer right? Well in your post you have stated untruths about me (as cerise) and I can prove it . Be careful Ms B, be very careful.

Subject: Roupell's false faces again From: Marianne To: ContemptuousDoc Date Posted: Fri, Jul 05, 2002 at 23:05:27 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks for showing your true colors once again, for those who were starting to have a soft spot for one of your false faces. I'll rely on the face to face relationships I have with people on this forum, and assistance I have provided in the real world, against you any day, Roupell. I have a real world track record. You are just a cult ghost howling in the wind. Marianne

Subject: Re: Roupell's false faces again From: Bolly To: Marianne Date Posted: Sat, Jul 06, 2002 at 04:08:15 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Marrianne Falcon and Anthony Thank you, I did feel a little bit uneasy about some of this guys posts and doubt that I would willingly have met him alone in daylight even. Thanks for pulling out his true identity. I use a borrowed machine and probably don't look as closely as I should at things. Love Bolly ps exactly who have I pledged my troth with and if I don't follow through do I get to keep the toaster and the fishknives? Love Bolly

Subject: Nothing FALSE about this Blatherer From: ActionDoc To: Marianne Date Posted: Fri, Jul 05, 2002 at 23:58:17 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yes indeed, you certainly do have a track record Ms Blathers, a pretty ugly one, well docmented thanks to people with more skill than I possess to unearth the likes of you. Of couse you see me standing up to you as 'revealing my true nature'. You have to! Well, let's just remember who joined this perfecly pleasant thread with podgy fists flailing all over the place. Good, That's all the readers need to know. Now listen here charmer....and there ain't nothing false about this...I can and will send a deposition to your superiors if you continue to cyberstalk me on these boads with lies, inuendo and false accusations. Capeesh? Doc - who feels sorry for all the 'humble, soft and gentle' premies who would have fallen victim to this creature's venom over the years.

Subject: Shooting fish in barrels From: PatD To: Anthony Date Posted: Fri, Jul 05, 2002 at 16:49:43 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ...is Mr.Roupell's game. He's good at it too.

Subject: RI met her in Christmas '71 From: Sir Dave To: Anthony Date Posted: Tues, Jul 02, 2002 at 12:37:58 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: She came into our house in Notting Hill (London) and we all got stoned. Her and I got on like a house on fire and went to bed together and promptly fell asleep in each other's arms, being too stoned to do anything else. I remember her kissing me (goodbye) in the morning as I lay half asleep in the bed. Eventually I woke up and she'd gone - never to return again. Shit, was I sore about that. I fell in love for a night and then she disappeared like a dream. I bet she's the same girl. How many hearts did she break?

Subject: Here today, gone to California From: Richard To: Anthony Date Posted: Tues, Jul 02, 2002 at 12:28:54 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Very touching, Anth. Her failure to show up for her appointment with destiny may have driven you headlong into the waiting arms of SatGuru. I had a brief affair with a woman in 1972. I had received K and that added to my esoteric mystique, I suppose. She received K, we lived together a short while and then off she went to 'visit an uncle' in San Francisco. Next thing I hear, she wants her stuff sent out to the coast. I debated endlessly and it all came down to either showing up on her doorstep with heart bleeding or go to India for Hans Jayanti. I threw the I-Ching and got Preponderance of the Great / It furthers one to cross the water to see the great man. I went to India and the rest is history. Richard, wondering what might have been and another round for Anth

Subject: To Anthony re Glastonbury thread From: Livia To: Anthony Date Posted: Tues, Jul 02, 2002 at 03:13:54 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Anthony, I had problems with too quickly vanishing threads until some kind person explained that if you click on 'View All' at the top or bottom of the page, loads more posts appear, including the ones that seem to have dropped off the bottom of the page; 900 in all, rather than the 100 or so which appear otherwise. It takes a while to load them all up, depending on the speed of your computer - with my rather cranky machine it takes up to a minute, sometimes less. Messages are usually visible for two weeks or so. Happy downloading! Livia

Subject: Re: To Anthony, PS From: Livia To: Livia Date Posted: Tues, Jul 02, 2002 at 03:23:25 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Actually it's 700 posts, and today you can read them as far back as June 18th. Livia

Subject: Thanks, Livia! From: Anthony To: Livia Date Posted: Tues, Jul 02, 2002 at 05:12:17 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: When I saw your posts, I thought someone was going to scorch me for disgusting chauvinist attitudes in my little tale. The follow-up to the situation was that, having collected my pay for work at Glas. I hitched to Oswestry, in search of the beautiful nurse. I found the only hospital there, and said Anthony from Glastonbury was looking for Rachel. She said she'd never heard of me and they told me to get lost. This is nothing to do with Knowledge, but I like to recall what a romantic young soul I was.

Subject: Re: A Glastonbury Romance.. From: too bad To: Anthony Date Posted: Tues, Jul 02, 2002 at 01:33:10 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: for you, I know the gal, she had an operation and is now a guy!!!

Subject: My prayer is answered. From: Anthony To: too bad Date Posted: Tues, Jul 02, 2002 at 01:43:14 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I eventually faced up to my real nature some years back, accepted the snip, and became a woman. Is it still too late for this year's Festival. He'll be waiting, I know, by that old rusty portaloo.

Subject: Master's Burdern -- Pain of Being Rich From: Maharaji To: All Date Posted: Mon, Jul 01, 2002 at 11:40:51 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Maharaji speaking at Long Beach 1995 You know some people don't like rich people. They have this idea or that idea of what it is to be rich. But they really don't know. It's not easy to be rich. It isn't. Once you've made your first million, you need another to protect it. Then you have two million, and you'll need another two million to protect those two million. Then you'll have four million and you'll need another four million to protect those four million, and then you'll have eight million. Of course then you'll need another 8 million to protect those eight million and then you'll have 16 million... it isn't easy, it's not what you think.

Subject: Poor Rich Maharaji... From: Cynthia To: Maharaji Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 04, 2002 at 08:45:31 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I know a lot of rich people. Very rich. Some are kind, some are like you Maharaji, a real asshole. Tell ya what...I can't make good use of some of your wealth. Send a few million my way and we'll see who's the humanitarian and who's the fraud.

Subject: Re: Master's Burdern -- Pain of Being Rich From: Scott T. To: Maharaji Date Posted: Wed, Jul 03, 2002 at 10:07:06 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You know some people don't like rich people. They have this idea or that idea of what it is to be rich. Let me guess. You've got more money than can be justified by your contribution to society? Yeah, you've a tough row to hoe, alright. Glad it's not me. --Scott (in sympathy)

Subject: This is why you are history(NT) From: The Falcon To: Maharaji Date Posted: Mon, Jul 01, 2002 at 15:25:03 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Hell Maharaji From: Jethro To: Maharaji Date Posted: Mon, Jul 01, 2002 at 12:34:33 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Long time no speak. I fully understand the pain you are going through as one of the rich misunderstood. Remember the 'Rejoice' programs when you, yourself,personally, re-gave all of us the Holy techniques of Knowledge. Remember the programs in Birmingham, where some people just couldn't understand why you needed a private suite just so you could go out for a smoke. Some people even stupidly suggested that the money used to hire that suite could have at least been used to pay for poor premies who couldn't afford to come. You know the ones on family support, living in poverty who send you part of their benefit. These people who criticised you did not understand how you are taking the world's suffering by smoking. Oh if only the world understood who you are(sigh). I thinkyou shoul'd republish the PeaceBomb satsang and once again where your crown. What's that you say?....there was no such thing.

Subject: It's not what you think.... From: PatD To: Maharaji Date Posted: Mon, Jul 01, 2002 at 12:17:23 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ....successful private investors like our erstwhile farseeing Lordy might well have invested in Enron,Worldcom & Uncle Tom Cobbledy & all. Lets hope so. My guess,trying to piece together the ghastly component parts of his nouveaux riche ideas of perfection(you ever read the post from the woman who picked all the pine needles out of his driveway),is that he's overextended in hi tech but has a baseline in cornflakes. I'd like to see him pulling a sled in Alaska,but that's just me.

Subject: Re: has a baseline in cornflakes. From: AV To: PatD Date Posted: Mon, Jul 01, 2002 at 12:45:04 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: which reminds me.....some dumb ass spent DAYS trying to do a king size jigsaw of a chicken, until it was pointed out he'd actually bought a giant box of cornflakes... AV, who snaps, crackles and occaisionally pops

Subject: Cheerios are donut seeds :) From: New-Age Redneck To: AV Date Posted: Fri, Jul 05, 2002 at 14:09:21 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: take my word for it and plant a few....

Subject: Dozens of old press articles From: Jean-Michel To: All Date Posted: Mon, Jul 01, 2002 at 08:58:26 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi you all, I’ve just received an interesting (snail)mail today, sent by some fellow-ex. 1/ A copy of a booklet called ‘Report of the World Peace Tour of Balyogeshwar Shri Sant Ji Maharaj’ published in India (end 71 or early 72). This booklet is a compilation of press reports on M’s programs etc in 1971, arrival at Heathrow airport (Daily Mirror), programs in UK (Express & News and several others), articles of the US press, reproductions of leaflets and posters used during that campaign (The famous ‘The Mystery of the Word’), satsangs of Mahatma Param Saphalanand, interview of Arthur Brigham, dozens of US and Canadian articles, pictures of premies at that time (James Vanerne and Sandy Collier amongst others). Comments on the tour in Hindi, and comments and letters from western disciples (with translation in Hindi) from Venetia, Saphalanand, Maurice, Jeffrey, Anne, Sue, several letters from Dhiraj Bai (Joan) and Sue (Ratcliffe). 2/ A compilation of genuine press cuttings of the early 70s. Dozens of them, sticked on a big ‘scrap book’. Articles on the programs in London 71, pictures of ‘Milky’ Cole and other premies (Glen Whittaker), leaflets, various reports on the Charity Commission investigating the DLM’s finances (UK), one intersting article on the jewels smuggling into India (apparently involving Joan Apter carrying the ‘divine bank’ of an estimated value between £30.000 and £60.000). The whole thing looks very bizarre. Do you want some of it reproduced on EPO ?

Subject: sure do.... From: The Falcon To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Mon, Jul 01, 2002 at 15:29:31 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: and I have much more to come-watch this space! J-M I will e-mail you privately when I have (soon) accessed an amazing archive of the requisite bullshit!

Subject: It's all bizarre From: PatD To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Mon, Jul 01, 2002 at 12:26:05 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: If you can be bothered,I'll read it.

Subject: Re: Dozens of old press articles From: AV To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Mon, Jul 01, 2002 at 10:02:13 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: all of it,I'd say! sounds priceless! esp 1.

Subject: Re: Dozens of old press articles From: Vicki To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Mon, Jul 01, 2002 at 09:58:06 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yes, please.

Subject: Yes, Please... From: Cynthia To: Vicki Date Posted: Mon, Jul 01, 2002 at 11:27:11 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Sounds like it would be a great source for EPO readers.

Subject: Re: Yes, Please... From: anon To: Cynthia Date Posted: Mon, Jul 01, 2002 at 12:20:48 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: What is EPO please

Subject: A read for every aspirant From: Jethro To: anon Date Posted: Mon, Jul 01, 2002 at 22:59:06 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Amongst other things it contains all the history of Maharaji that he tried to wipe out by having books and videos burnt. Here's the URL http://www.ex-premie.org/ EPO www.ex-premie.org/

Subject: It's a club From: EPO expert To: anon Date Posted: Mon, Jul 01, 2002 at 21:57:39 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: for those poor unfortunates who have discovered, to their bitter disappointment, the... End of Positive Orgasms ;)

Subject: Re: Yes, Please... From: PatD To: anon Date Posted: Mon, Jul 01, 2002 at 12:28:16 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: www.ex-premie.org is EPO.

Subject: Where's Jim? From: Livia To: All Date Posted: Mon, Jul 01, 2002 at 04:17:56 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: I think Jim is finally free of M [nt] From: Dep To: Livia Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 04, 2002 at 20:33:16 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: You haven't heard, Livia? From: Richard To: Livia Date Posted: Mon, Jul 01, 2002 at 17:06:37 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You must have missed the thread where we discussed this. Jim, as it turns out, was just a creation of GMJ to test the devotees. We were told to never leave room for doubts in our minds so, in his ultimate wisdom and compassion, GMJ manifested himself in the form of the Ultimate Doubt Maker - Jim. Jim has dutifully fulfilled his service as Doubtmaker and tested the premies. Some have listened to Jim and wandered from the MOM (Message of Maharaji). These we call Ex-Premies or Ex's for brevity. The other more focused and dedicated premies have ignored Jim's siren call to the rocks and now happily thrive over at Life Is Great. These are the true devotees of the Living Master and forever shall reap their just desserts. Amaroo beckons and the remaining students can rest assured they have passed the test and will no longer be tempted by the doubting Jim's of the world. Sounds appealing so I'm back on the fence. You never know, he could be the One after all. Anyone got Bazza's email address? I hope that clears things up for you. :) Richard

Subject: Straightforward question, convoluted answer From: Tonete To: Richard Date Posted: Tues, Jul 02, 2002 at 14:35:33 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: So where is Jim and Pat C.? I have been away on vacation for awhile. Have yet to 'catch up' as they say. Last I heard or read, there was quite a ruckus regarding Life's (fucking) Great, and Forum 7. So what's up folks? Anyone want to give it straight? Meaning not in riddles or heiroglythics? Sorry about the spelling. Tonette

Subject: Straightforward answer From: Richard To: Tonete Date Posted: Tues, Jul 02, 2002 at 17:55:20 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: After the brouhaha about Jim's lurking on Recent Exes with Moley's help (see Symposium for much info on this), he has pulled back from F7 for awhile. PatC has done the same and resigned as FA of F7. Everyone has stated their reasons on Symposium. Many others have posted their opinions on the RE-gate topic. Sorry you don't see humor in my post. I thought I was being clever but, as you weren't around for the aforementioned meltdown, it made no sense to you. I assumed Livia was aware of the situation and was just asking about Jim so I chose to make light of it. No one else thought it was funny either so I'll need to be more discerning when it comes to joking around. As I said, this was discussed to extreme lengths over on Symposium which is where it was taken to free up F7 for it's stated purpose. For Symposium, see link at the top of the page. There are several threads where this was discussed in the View All list. Richard, just the facts

Subject: Round pegs in square holes. From: Scott T. To: Richard Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 04, 2002 at 22:50:33 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Rich: Thanks. I lit out for southern Virginia on my bike for a week, so missed the finale. Anyway, things pretty nasty on Symp with DR pretty much having his way, so I may just join Jim in obscurity. Leave the faction free to form it's own ideosyncratic worldview without my anoying input. I tried wearing squarepants just to fit in, but they chafed. --Scott

Subject: Re: Straightforward answer From: Premie Forever To: Richard Date Posted: Tues, Jul 02, 2002 at 18:38:57 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Sorry you don't see humor in my post. Funny!? You think it's funny!!?? Jim's the goddamn antichrist... and you think that's FUNNY!!!???? Sheesh, man, I'm glad I never fell for his bullshit. Nosiree, MR. Mind never fooled me for an instant. But all you X premies? You're gonna be X'd alright! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

Subject: Thank you. Yes, the answer on the rocks. From: Tonette To: Richard Date Posted: Tues, Jul 02, 2002 at 18:28:30 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Sorry to hear this as I have always found Jim and Pat to be of the highest integrity. Wow, is this some shit. Imagine invading Recent Ex's and just reading and then getting crucified over it, just reading. Does the recent ex's club think Jim was the only one to invade their domain? I think I will apply for a password, just for a lark. Thanks Richard. I appreciate your reply. I really do. Fondly, Tonette

Subject: Please discuss this on Symposium From: Richard To: Tonette Date Posted: Tues, Jul 02, 2002 at 21:21:48 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I appreciate that, Tonette and welcome back. Yes, it was too intense a situation for me to make light of it. Symposium is a great place to cover these types of discussions. Keep reading the threads over there for all the intrigue. Likewise, ask over there if you have questions about this. Richard, move along folks

Subject: Looking for details/Barcelona program From: Jean-Michel To: All Date Posted: Mon, Jul 01, 2002 at 01:19:00 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: A friend would like to attend ...... Anybody to help me ?

Subject: Re: Looking for details/Barcelona program From: Will To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Mon, Jul 01, 2002 at 07:05:17 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: see http://www.contact-info.net/events/Europe/barcelona2002.html

Subject: link for Barcelona From: Will To: Will Date Posted: Mon, Jul 01, 2002 at 07:09:38 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Barcelona www.contact-info.net/events/Europe/barcelona2002.html The public program is open to interested people, but premies can only attend if they are accompanied by a newcomer.

Subject: Re: link for Barcelona From: Will To: Will Date Posted: Mon, Jul 01, 2002 at 07:14:37 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: This site indicates that there were two knowledge sessions in Madrid last weekend. Also on Barcelona www.fundacionelanvital.es/Barcelona2002.htm

Subject: good news for lurking premies From: The Falcon To: All Date Posted: Mon, Jul 01, 2002 at 01:15:47 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: No need to be afraid, the 'Knowledge' can work even better without the belief structures. Which reminds me;-Maharaji said way back, 'Belief is a locked box', it was even on posters with his picture. This attracted me as I wanted a direct experience of God, having previously had several experiences of satori (spontaneous awakenings), however, what I got was both an experience which I still enjoy and was the thing that hooked me in, and the biggest locked box imaginable. This post is just to say that there is a better life after this limiting belief system is renounced (I know it's a tough one-only took me 10 years-much easier nowadays with EPO).Free yourselves and really fly.

Subject: Never Con a Con Man From: Vicki To: All Date Posted: Mon, Jul 01, 2002 at 01:00:12 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Does anyone remember Maharaji saying this? I do on two occasions. One was specifically in Palm Springs, late eighties. He went on at length explaining this premise. The crux was, we could never BS him, satsang, service, meditation or devotion, because he could see through all the cons and excuses and ploys any mere mortal might try. Inlight of the previous threads, it seems that he understood to a very large degree the con. Maybe he learned this at the knee of Shri Hans or Mataji. Maybe he figured it out on his own. Maybe we were just so naive and trusting and open after the turmoil of the sixties. I've often heard about the letter that was left where Shri Hans gave his blessing to the three elder boys and full prostrations to Sant Ji. I never saw it. He says he heard a voice say three times 'You are the one.' Maybe, maybe not. He said Shri Hans appreared to him and made him eat mangos whilst discussing Perfect Master stuff. Possibly, or possibly not. All these legends were doled out by Mahatma's as THE truth. We had to ingest them like oxygen to be accepted for knowledge. Anything they chose to tell us was irrefutable, as we had no bench mark of comparison in our western world, other than the second coming of Christ. Too question would have been to not receive knowledge! And to question afterwards would have been public admittance of not being surrendered, and horror of horrors, in one's mind. In retrospect, it is mind boggling.

Subject: Marianne – meditation and prisoners From: Dep To: All Date Posted: Sun, Jun 30, 2002 at 17:15:47 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Marianne, we spoke earlier about meditation and the rehabilitation of prisoners. Check out this SF Weekly article by Joel P. Engardio. http://www.sfweekly.com/issues/2000-12-20/feature.html/1/index.html San Francisco County Jail No. 3 is a hellhole. Can an ancient, intense form of meditation improve life for the inmates? Apparently so! According to San Francisco Sheriff Michael Hennessey, 'The show of self-control and discipline at Tihar Jail in Delhi India was intense, and we're talking about really murderous and horrible criminals -- more so than we ever see at No. 3,' he says. 'If Vipassana could do that in India, then I figured it might help my inmates find a respite from the horrible conditions they have to live in here. They, too, could have a break from the chaos. Even if only in their minds.' The National Institutes of Health has funded a study to find out whether Vipassana meditation can help inmates curb their drug and alcohol addictions and become less inclined to return to a life of crime. The NIH will begin next month by focusing on a small, minimum-security facility near Seattle -- the first jail outside of India to adopt the Vipassana technique. Since that jail started the Vipassana program three years ago, the anecdotal evidence of its success has been encouraging. Now San Francisco's medium-security No. 3 jail will become the second -- and by far the largest -- in North America to experiment with Vipassana when it begins teaching inmates early next year. The art of Vipassana had been lost in India for 2,000 years when New Delhi's Tihar Jail was at its brutal worst during the latter half of the 20th century. Today's teachers of Vipassana claim that Gautama Buddha discovered the meditation technique in India 500 years before the birth of Christ. But its practice faded after the seventh century. As India embraced Hinduism, Buddhism migrated east, marrying Taoism in China and Shinto in Japan, and landing in its original form in Burma along the way. It was only there that a small, devout band of monks kept Buddha's Vipassana alive through the generations -- until a Burmese businessman, S. N. Goenka, searching for a cure to his stressful life and the migraines that came with it, visited the monastery in the 1950s. As his headaches disappeared, S. N. Goenka became an ardent believer and practitioner of Vipassana. He moved to India and devoted his life to spreading the meditation practice around the world. Now in his late 70s, Goenka enjoys the same level of reverence from his students as other iconic spiritual teachers, such as the Dalai Lama. Goenka's boldest attempt to change lives with Vipassana was in Tihar Jail. The prison is the largest in India and has been considered one of the most dangerous in the Third World. The accommodations were abominable: open-air cells in the seasonally frigid northern climate, stone slab beds, standing pools of water acting as bath and toilet. The behavior of inmates -- and guards -- was frightening (as is well documented by human rights groups). There was blackmail and anarchy, torture and killing. Drug cartels, gangs, and assaults were rampant. The inmates ruled themselves in a twisted hierarchy, while the guards played a hand in many of the atrocities. With each course, Vipassana appeared to transform the atmosphere of the jail. News reports of the time noted that instead of fighting, inmates planted flowers on the prison grounds. By the mid-1990s, Vipassana was major force at Tihar, being taught to 1,000 inmates at a time. An Israeli-produced film, Doing Time Doing Vipassana, chronicled the amazing developments, showing hardened criminals weeping in the arms of their teachers -- and even their prison guards -- upon their exit from 10 days of silent meditation. PBS broadcast the documentary in the United States. It was also a hit in theaters, winning the Golden Spire Award at the 1998 San Francisco International Film Festival. Vipassana followers who made pilgrimages to India to study under Goenka began setting up civilian Vipassana retreats in the U.S. -- near Yosemite, in Texas, the Pacific Northwest, and New England -- teaching the technique to capacity crowds. IMO this is also an important difference between Mr. Goenka and Mr. Rawat! But as Lucia Meijer of the Seattle-area jail pointed out, some worry that Vipassana is a cult. Snyder is quick to explain that Goenka is not a god. Though people respect him for preserving Vipassana, they don't worship him. 'Goenka has great charisma and is a wise trainer, but he is not Vipassana,' Snyder says. 'His students revere him very much, and consider him the person who helped them change their lives. As long as we have Goenka, we will ask his insight. But when he's no longer here, Vipassana will be just as strong.' In addition, Goenka leads no centralized organization. Each Vipassana retreat is a separate nonprofit trust run by an unpaid board of directors. Goenka appoints the teachers, and the teachers control the boards. A volunteer staff of advanced students of Vipassana operate the centers, which provide free food and lodging to meditators. Donations finance everything.

Subject: The Bible and Christianity... From: Cynthia To: Dep Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 04, 2002 at 11:04:46 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jeezum Crow Dep, you take the Bible literally? Quite strange. I saw a documentary on Discovery or History Channel about retracing Jesus's life. Through archealogical digs they traced his life as much as they could. It was determined by the anthropologists and the diggers that his only special power would have been to heal the poor. He bathed the poor, he was violent (turning over the tables in the Temple), he had sex, and was a political provacateur on his own behalf. I personally despise the Bible. It's used so much to justify the many and various wrongs done in the world. Women are demeaned. And he didn't write the f**king thing. It's all just crap. Btw, ever visited a prison or jail? Get a clue, Dep, get a clue.

Subject: Re: The Bible and Christianity... From: Dep To: Cynthia Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 04, 2002 at 14:12:40 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jeezum Crow Dep, you take the Bible literally? Quite strange. I saw a documentary on Discovery or History Channel about retracing Jesus's life. Through archealogical digs they traced his life as much as they could. It was determined by the anthropologists and the diggers that his only special power would have been to heal the poor. He bathed the poor, he was violent (turning over the tables in the Temple), he had sex, and was a political provacateur on his own behalf. I personally despise the Bible. It's used so much to justify the many and various wrongs done in the world. Women are demeaned. And he didn't write the f**king thing. It's all just crap. Btw, ever visited a prison or jail? Get a clue, Dep, get a clue. --- Am I supposed to take that literally? So Jesus is a doctor now! So what have we got so far: a farmer, a social worker, and now a doctor. I think the only worldly trade he has was carpentry. Yes, I have visited a maximum security prison where men were in for 10 years plus. You could cut the tension with a knife. Someone in a meditative state would have been good.

Subject: Dep...why don't you volunteer... From: Cynthia To: Dep Date Posted: Fri, Jul 05, 2002 at 08:22:08 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: To teach meditation at prisons. You're so intent on it's viability in helping prisoners, so instead of posting here, go teach techniques. Then, come back and tell us of your successes and failures. But, you have to be honest, and you can't be a guru!;)

Subject: Great suggestion, Cynthia From: Marianne To: Cynthia Date Posted: Fri, Jul 05, 2002 at 10:54:17 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yes, by all means Dep, run down to the local jail today and bring a copy of the video for those who run it to preview. If you think this is such a great idea, stand behind it and see if you can convince those in your community to take some action. Don't post here and debate with us about it - go do something practical about your ideas and suggestions. Tell us what kind of a reception you got from the experts - the people who deal with prisoners every day - and from the prisoners themselves. I'd be very interested to hear the results of your experiment. Of course, my insights, after having worked with prisons and prisoners for 27 years, are irrelevant. Show me how wrong I am by doing something about this yourself. Marianne

Subject: Working at this jail made me an ex, Dog! From: Marianne To: Dep Date Posted: Sun, Jun 30, 2002 at 21:37:33 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dep: If you re-read my Journey, you will see that what made me leave M behind was working in the jails in S an Francisco. I worked at all of them. Sheriff Hennessey was the lawyer for the jail when I worked there. He is an old friend of mine. I have practiced criminal law in SF for 22 years and am well aware of the innovative programs that the criminal justice system employs in an attempt to prevent people from returning. I can tell you in all certainty Dep, that no one in that jail is going to tell these prisoners that meditation is the answer to their life problems. The primary focus of the SF jail programs is giving people basic education (which most lack), basic job skills and training (which most have never had), and some limited counselling. There are also acupuncture sessions available -- as part of a much bigger treatment program -- for serious drug addicts. San Francisco is probably the most expensive housing market in the US. There are thousands of homeless on our streets. Believe me, Sheriff Hennessey is not telling these prisoners that meditation is going to help them find an affordable place to live and a job that pays for rent and food when they get out. If meditation alleviates some internal suffering, fine. But it is an absolutely morally bankrupt idea to think that these people are going to get back on their feet by simply listening to their breath. It is exactly that kind of thinking which premies spouted to me when I was working in the jail that made me leave it all behind. Marianne

Subject: Re: Working at this jail made me an ex, Dog! From: Dep To: Marianne Date Posted: Mon, Jul 01, 2002 at 08:10:08 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The primary focus of the SF jail programs is giving people basic education (which most lack), basic job skills and training (which most have never had), and some limited counselling. Marianne, You must admit that there are educated people, with marketable job skills and nice housing that commit horrible crimes. And there are all kinds of educated people with marketable job skills and nice housing that become serious drug addicts or commit suicide. In fact in 1991, more people in the U.S. died by suicide than by homicide and even super rich people commit horrible crimes. If, as you say, meditation alleviates internal suffering, why not go for it. It might sound hackneyed to you, but peace in the world cannot be achieved unless there is peace within individuals. Most of the problems in the world are created by inappropriate human behaviour. That's my story and I'm sticking to it. (John 4:24)

Subject: Correction! From: Dep To: Dep Date Posted: Mon, Jul 01, 2002 at 10:07:40 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The primary focus of the SF jail programs is giving people basic education (which most lack), basic job skills and training (which most have never had), and some limited counselling. Marianne, You must admit that there are educated people, with marketable job skills and nice housing that commit horrible crimes. And there are all kinds of educated people with marketable job skills and nice housing that become serious drug addicts or commit suicide. In fact in 1991, more people in the U.S. died by suicide than by homicide and even super rich people commit horrible crimes. If, as you say, meditation alleviates internal suffering, why not go for it. It might sound hackneyed to you, but peace in the world cannot be achieved unless there is peace within individuals. Most of the problems in the world are created by inappropriate human behaviour. That's my story and I'm sticking to it. (John 4:24) --- Sorry, that Bible quote should be Matthew 6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

Subject: Re: Correction to your correction From: Neville To: Dep Date Posted: Wed, Jul 03, 2002 at 16:50:16 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dep... You really shouldn't be quoting Bible verses when you have so little grasp of what they mean. What the hell has 'the Kingdom of God' and 'righteousness' to do with meditation? Does meditation make you 'righteous'? Do you have any technical grasp at all of the meaning of the term 'Kingdom of God'? Let's get something straight: no way was Christ a pantheist. No way did he teach karma, or reincarnation, or any of the other trappings of pantheism, including mediation. Premies used to take refs to 'light' out of context and claim Christ dished out the 4 techniques, but I would have thought by now that we would all have outgrown such obvious rationalisations. Face it: there is more than one school of spiritual thought on this planet. Pantheism is one. Theism--Christianity is theistic--is another. They are utterly different. Yes, perhaps mediation can calm down prisoners. (How would I know different?) But spare us the bullshit about Christ teaching this stuff. Neville

Subject: Re: Correction to your correction From: Dep To: Neville Date Posted: Wed, Jul 03, 2002 at 20:49:30 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You really shouldn't be quoting Bible verses when you have so little grasp of what they mean. What the hell has 'the Kingdom of God' and 'righteousness' to do with meditation? Does meditation make you 'righteous'? Do you have any technical grasp at all of the meaning of the term 'Kingdom of God'? Jesus never taught meditation did he! No of course not. He was just a nice guy. 2 Timothy 1: 6: Wherefore I put thee in remembrance that thou stir up the gift of God, which is in thee by the putting on of my hands. 7: For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.

Subject: Re: Correction to your correction From: Neville To: Dep Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 04, 2002 at 02:20:30 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: For all the relevance these references have to the business of meditation you may as well have stuck a pin in the NT at random and quoted the verse you found. And are you saying that, by definition, a nice guy must teach/ approve of/ practice meditation? Frankly, I don't think you know what you're saying. Neville

Subject: Don't bother, Neville From: Mickey the Pharisee To: Neville Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 04, 2002 at 05:44:25 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Neville, I have gone through this exercise with Dep before, in fact, several times. He actually believes that he has a profound understanding of the Hebrew and Christian scriptures, and that is all shows continuity between the Perfect Master of the past and the present Perfect Master. He refuses to acknowldge any historical, political, or cultural context to the texts, and only uses the KJV because the translation is poor enough to aid his cause. You can try to help him see reason on this, but I don't think you will be successful.

Subject: Re: Don't bother, Neville From: Dep To: Mickey the Pharisee Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 04, 2002 at 07:53:43 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Neville, Did you know that Orthodox Jews spell God, G-d (or some such equivalent in Hebrew), because they don't want to confuse the word, the symbol with the Reality. The letters G-o-d are not God. The word 'God' is just a piece of noise. Most people don't get the difference between the concept and the experience. Most people remain caught up in language, the story, the history about it all. They have no idea what Jesus meant in John 8: 51-59 '51': Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death. '52': Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death. '53': Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself? '54': Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God: '55': Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying. '56': Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. '57': Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? '58': Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. '59': Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by. --- --- --- --- --- --- --- - 'Unless you change and become as a little child you will never enter the Kingdom of Heaven.' Or course Mickey will probably tell you that Jesus didn't say that.

Subject: Re: Don't bother, Neville From: Mickey the Pharisee To: Dep Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 04, 2002 at 11:45:22 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I don't know why my bishop sent me to seminary; I could have called you and you would have `splained everyting! And by adopting your combination of Sunday School piety and New Age mysticism, I would be able to start my own cult! So, just what do YOU think is meant by the phrase 'Reign of God?'

Subject: Re: Don't bother, Neville From: Dep To: Mickey the Pharisee Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 04, 2002 at 19:45:46 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I don't know why my bishop sent me to seminary; I could have called you and you would have `splained everyting! And by adopting your combination of Sunday School piety and New Age mysticism, I would be able to start my own cult! So, just what do YOU think is meant by the phrase 'Reign of God?' --- First off, you are the one who needs to 'splain everyting.' You are stuck in your story. Second, Jesus said, 'My kingdom is not of this world.' So why does mysticism have to be New Age? Don't tell me He never said that! Third, how do you know I've never been to a seminary?

Subject: Re: Don't bother, Neville From: Mickey the Pharisee To: Dep Date Posted: Fri, Jul 05, 2002 at 05:45:14 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dep wrote: 'Third, how do you know I've never been to a seminary?' I don't *know* that you haven't been to a seminary, but, due to your total lack of exegetical skills, ignorance of current biblical scholarship, lack of knowledge regarding Christian spirituality and your use of the Authorised or King James Version of the bible, I suspect that you haven't been to seminary, or at least you haven't attended a seminary since 1959. Of course, Dep, there are seminaries and there are Seminaries. There is a difference between Bethel Bible College and Harvard Divinity School. There is a difference between Unity school and the Graduate Theological Union. There is a difference between a bible correspondence course and Cuddeston. I was thinking the other day how I know nothing about you, Dep, except that you are or were, a cult member. I don't know where you live or what you do or even where you went to seminary (yeah, right).

Subject: Pretentious and condescending From: Dep To: Mickey the Pharisee Date Posted: Fri, Jul 05, 2002 at 07:38:10 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I don't 'know' that you haven't been to a seminary, but, due to your total lack of exegetical skills, ignorance of current biblical scholarship, lack of knowledge regarding Christian spirituality and your use of the Authorised or King James Version of the bible, I suspect that you haven't been to seminary, or at least you haven't attended a seminary since 1959. Of course, Dep, there are seminaries and there are Seminaries. There is a difference between Bethel Bible College and Harvard Divinity School. There is a difference between Unity school and the Graduate Theological Union. There is a difference between a bible correspondence course and Cuddeston. You know of course that Christ's disciples were humble fishermen who may have been illiterate and completely lacking in exegetical skills . . . not a BD among them. And now I hear that all Christians before 1959 were idiots too? How arrogant and condescending.

Subject: Re: Pretentious and condescending From: Mickey the Pharisee To: Dep Date Posted: Fri, Jul 05, 2002 at 11:50:53 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Sheesh, do you have virtual ADD or something? You asked 'How do you know I didn't go to seminary?' I responded. Now you defend illiterate fisherman and Christians from 1959? That is your response? I guess stomping off in a self-rightous huff helps you evade dealing with the ridiculous statements you have been making throughout this thread. You are one piece of work!! In Christian love, Mickey

Subject: Re: Pretentious and condescending From: Dep To: Mickey the Pharisee Date Posted: Fri, Jul 05, 2002 at 13:38:39 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Sheesh, do you have virtual ADD or something? You asked 'How do you know I didn't go to seminary?' I responded. Now you defend illiterate fisherman and Christians from 1959? That is your response? I guess stomping off in a self-rightous huff helps you evade dealing with the ridiculous statements you have been making throughout this thread. You are one piece of work!! In Christian love, Mickey --- I am defending Christ's disciples and all Christians prior to 1959. And you call Bible quotes ridiculous statements? I am not stomping off in a self-righteous huff? It's just that your sophistry makes me sick. You can take your so-called 'Christian' love and shove it. Fuck off you prick!

Subject: MICKEY IS NOT A PRICK, DOG! From: Marianne To: Dep Date Posted: Fri, Jul 05, 2002 at 17:24:45 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dog, Mickey is a minister who works every day with the poor of Panama. He has put his beliefs to work on a daily basis in the most concrete way possible. He gave up a comfortable life in California in order to better the lives of others. He has advanced university degrees and has a theological education. He is vastly more educated then you are on these subjects. Nevertheless, he tried to explain to you why and how he disagreed. Your arguments in this thread seem to be that just because you are human, that experience gives you superior knowledge about prisons, prisoners, and Christ, than those who have years of university and work experience in these arenas. Mickey finally threw up his virtual hands in frustration when you tossed back the odd biblical passage instead of responding to the questions put to you. Mickey is one of the people I have come to respect the most here, Dog. That's because he lives a life consistent with his beliefs. What do you do to make the world a better place, on a daily basis, that truly affects other peoples' lives? It's easy to take potshots at Mickey or me, or others, for our opinions and ideas, and for what we do to carry out those ideals, from the safety of your philosophical ivory tower. What do you do besides take pot shots at us and pontificate about the benefits of meditation? Marianne

Subject: Re: Yeah, what works? From: Mickey the Pharisee To: Dep Date Posted: Fri, Jul 05, 2002 at 14:33:19 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It's your interpretation of the quotes, not the quotes themselves, which are ridiculous. And pre-1959 Christians certainly don't need any defense from you, do they? I had not insulted Christians from that era, I just said that you hadn't been in a seminary since then (knowing full well that you probably have NEVER been in a seminary). The problem is, you don't know what you're talking about, but you just can't quit, for some reason. You have yet to actually respond to any of my points. So, I'll just leave it at that. Well, except to say 'JESUS NEVER TAUGHT MEDITATION TECHNIQUES, AND HE SURE AS HELL DIDN'T TEACH THE FOUR TECHNIQUES YOU CALL 'KNOWLEDGE'!!!' Here endeth the lesson. Thanks be to God.

Subject: So you're the only one with ears to hear? [nt] From: Neville To: Dep Date Posted: Fri, Jul 05, 2002 at 03:02:05 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Yep: that'd be a good start [nt] From: Neville To: Mickey the Pharisee Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 04, 2002 at 13:58:09 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: Yep: that'd be a good start From: Neville To: Neville Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 04, 2002 at 16:30:03 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: One last chance, Dep From: Neville To: Dep Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 04, 2002 at 08:37:08 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You stick a bunch of verses on the page as if that proves something. You don't even offer an interpretation. Well, I have no difficulty at all understanding what Jesus was saying in those verses--in some instances I can claim to have experienced it personally, directly--and can assure you it has nothing whatsoever to do with meditation. What exactly is your point? I repeat: there are different schools of spiritual thought, with many different origins and different conclusions. You seem determined to force all of them into your own, single, preconceived model regardless of the facts. I'm beginning to think Mickey is right: that you are just not worth talking to. Neville

Subject: Re: One last chance, Dep From: Dep To: Neville Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 04, 2002 at 14:47:24 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Gee thanks for giving me that once last chance Neville. I really appreciate that. I repeat: there are different schools of spiritual thought, with many different origins and different conclusions. You seem determined to force all of them into your own, single, preconceived model regardless of the facts. What exactly is my preconceived model? And what facts am I ignoring? And has it ever occurred to you that I might be familiar with more than one school of spiritual thought? In fact, there are many types of meditation out there, and I've done my share. Apparently, the only thing I've proved with the Bible verses is that you are a bit thick. Let them hear that have ears to hear.

Subject: Yep. I'm wasting my time. [nt] From: Neville To: Dep Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 04, 2002 at 15:26:50 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: Yep. I'm wasting my time. From: Dep To: Neville Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 04, 2002 at 20:10:30 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: This is what Jesus says to those who lead others away from the Spirit. I didn't make this up. Matthew 18:5-10. '5': And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me. '6': But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea. '7': Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh! '8': Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire. '9': And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire. '10': Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven. --- --- --- --- It's one thing to waste someone's time; it's another thing to lead them astray.

Subject: Your point is...? [nt] From: Neville To: Dep Date Posted: Fri, Jul 05, 2002 at 03:03:27 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Gee, I don't know Neville . . [nt] From: Dep To: Neville Date Posted: Fri, Jul 05, 2002 at 08:33:41 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: Yep. I'm wasting my time. From: Dep To: Neville Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 04, 2002 at 20:07:36 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Ever been to jail or prison, Dep? From: Marianne To: Dep Date Posted: Mon, Jul 01, 2002 at 13:07:49 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Look, I appreciate you are saying that meditation might be of some help to people in prison. But if you believe that meditation is going to help mentally ill people regain mental health, homeless people find places to live, unemployed people find well paying jobs -- the primary reasons people end up incarcerated -- then you are living in a fairy tale, Dog. This is the candy coated story Maharaji told us umpteen years ago that I fell for. It didn't work, did it? All it did was make Rotwat rich. I ask you again -- what experience do you have working with incarcerated people? This is just a pipe-dream, a folly. I'd like to see you go tell my death row clients that if only they had meditated, they could have avoided the adult results of that nasty childhood filled with horrific sexual, physical and emotional abuse.

Subject: Re: Ever been to jail or prison, Dep? From: Bolly To: Marianne Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 04, 2002 at 07:04:23 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Marrianne Hi! Last year I was incacerated at theb local nick for an afternoon while a multi national formerly known as Enron erected a fence to keep me and my ilk at bay. I can honestly say that K n M did not protect my nostrils from the stench of that place. I'm going straight now govner honest. Love Bolly

Subject: Re: Ever been to jail or prison, Dep? From: Dep To: Marianne Date Posted: Mon, Jul 01, 2002 at 20:38:54 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Marianne, I didn't make up John:24 or Matthew 6:33 and neither did Maharaji. Jesus said these things. I have never been to jail or prison and in many respects I have had an easy life. But I do know that through the Spirit and Vipassana people can transcend their conditioning, at least to some degree. People do not have to be billiard balls totally caught up in stimulus-response. The article says that Vipassana worked in Tihar jail and Tihar jail probably makes Prison Number 3 in SF look like a Holiday Inn. At least see the movie Doing Time Doing Vipassana. Do you know how the experiment in Prison Number 3 worked out?

Subject: What works-The Garden Project From: Marianne To: Dep Date Posted: Tues, Jul 02, 2002 at 12:28:13 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Look Dog, I realize you are trying to have a discussion with me about this, but you have no experience in this area! The issue isn't 'stimulus-response'. Incercerated people have -- typically -- been neglected, abused, under or never educated, have some sort of mental impairment that requires a more sophisticated answer than meditation. You want to see something that does work? Go to www.gardenproject.org This project is run by a law school classmate of mine. She works with prisoners in the San Francisco jails and teaches them gardening - real skills - that can be translated into real world job opportunities. This experience translates into both real world and internal lessons. This is the kind of program that is attempting to deal with recidivist offenders, and is having some success. I heard about the Vipassana movie when it came out. I will call Sheriff Hennessey and the people in Prisoner Services (where I used to work) and see what they have to say about this issue. But I am telling you Dog, I know these people. I work with them. These are the same people who extricated me from the cult! I am virtually certain they will say that they were willing to try something a little bit different to see if it helped a tiny proportion of the inmates who might benefit from it. Believe me, they'll tell me the Garden Project is more likely to help these folks before sitting around navel gazing will. Sorry to sound a bit pissed off, but you have no idea about the inmate population other than what you've seen in a movie. Marianne

Subject: Re: What works-The Garden Project From: Vicki To: Marianne Date Posted: Tues, Jul 02, 2002 at 20:57:51 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: In our area they've started a project whereby trained dog groomers teach inmates how to professionally groom dogs. There is also a program where they teach farm animal husbandry. Both are having great success. There was also a special on TV where they are training companion dogs which help wheelchair bound people. Quite amazing results.

Subject: Re: What works? From: Dep To: Marianne Date Posted: Tues, Jul 02, 2002 at 15:08:11 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Marianne, I have no experience in this area! I'm a human being ain't I? I know you are Catholic - you mentioned going to mass once when you were in Paris - so you undoubtedly believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of G-d. Well I just did a quick search through the New Testament and could not find one reference Jesus made about gardening. He did speak of the Spirit though. I'm sorry if I too sound a bit pissed off but I feel very strongly about this subject. Thanks for offering to call Sheriff Hennessey. I am interested to hear what he says. =)

Subject: you're a flaming ass, dep From: janet To: Dep Date Posted: Wed, Jul 03, 2002 at 06:48:16 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I was sitting yesterday morning with my roommate talking about some parable I couldnt quite place, and he got up and took down our Bible and dove into the new testament, looking for the parable he wanted to wuote, and guess what, dep? what the hell do you think all those parables about tending seeds and vineyards are, fool? that isnt gardening?? 'by your fruits ye shall know them?' 'swords into plowshares'? what kind of an ass are you, anyway? not the one JC rode into jerusalem on, not even that useful. god, are you stupid.! '....duuuhhhh, i cooodnt fine wunn refruns ta gardunning in thuh bible. jezis nevur talked abowt it. duhhhh...' boot to the head, dog. go back to school.

Subject: Re: you're a flaming ass, janet From: Dep To: janet Date Posted: Wed, Jul 03, 2002 at 20:31:41 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks Janet, So Jesus was some sort of combine harvestor whose primarily interest was farming. You should talk with Mickey, he thinks Jesus was a social worker. Luke 8 '4': And when much people were gathered together, and were come to him out of every city, he spake by a parable: '5': A sower went out to sow his seed: and as he sowed, some fell by the way side; and it was trodden down, and the fowls of the air devoured it. '6': And some fell upon a rock; and as soon as it was sprung up, it withered away, because it lacked moisture. '7': And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprang up with it, and choked it. '8': And other fell on good ground, and sprang up, and bare fruit an hundredfold. And when he had said these things, he cried, He that hath ears to hear, let him hear. '9': And his disciples asked him, saying, What might this parable be? '10': And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand. '11': Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. '12': Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. '13': They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away. '14': And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection. '15': But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.

Subject: Your claws are showing dep From: hamzen To: Dep Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 04, 2002 at 17:26:04 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Anger management classes dep, save you so much time.

Subject: These refs are irrelevant [nt] From: Neville To: Dep Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 04, 2002 at 02:21:49 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: you're a flaming carrot From: Neville To: janet Date Posted: Wed, Jul 03, 2002 at 15:55:43 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Actually, Jesus was once mistaken for a gardener, by Mary Magdalene. This was in Gethsemene just after his resurrection (see John 20:15)What's interesting is that in those days people had only one set of clothes, so gardening was done without clothes. That might be why she thought he was the gardener: he was naked. Neville

Subject: Re: What works? From: Mickey the Pharisee To: Dep Date Posted: Tues, Jul 02, 2002 at 17:28:23 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Actually Dep, Jesus made many references to sowing and harvesting, especially in reference to the Kingdom of God (I prefer the term Reign of God since I'm not a royalist). Matthew 13:18-31 is full of 'gardening references.' As for Matthew 6:33, do you think that Jesus meant that as long as you meditate you will have food and clothing? If this is so, why does India have so many poor? I think that you are a bit naive to think that meditation will solve the problems of our prison population; it is just as naive to go in and 'save' everyone in the prisons. I'm with Marianne on this one. Oh, by the way, just what IS John:24? There are only 21 chapters to the gospel of John. Mickey the exegete.

Subject: Re: Yeah, what works? From: Dep To: Mickey the Pharisee Date Posted: Fri, Jul 05, 2002 at 10:23:49 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: As for Matthew 6:33, do you think that Jesus meant that as long as you meditate you will have food and clothing? Yep, that's what He says in the Bible. Matthew 6:25-34 25: Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment? 26: Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they? 27: Which of you by taking thought can add one cubit unto his stature? 28: And why take ye thought for raiment? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin: 29: And yet I say unto you, That even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. 30: Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of little faith? 31: Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed? 32: (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek:) for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things. 33: But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you. 34: Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof. --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- Luke 12:22-32 22: And he said unto his disciples, Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat; neither for the body, what ye shall put on. 23: The life is more than meat, and the body is more than raiment. 24: Consider the ravens: for they neither sow nor reap; which neither have storehouse nor barn; and God feedeth them: how much more are ye better than the fowls? 25: And which of you with taking thought can add to his stature one cubit? 26: If ye then be not able to do that thing which is least, why take ye thought for the rest? 27: Consider the lilies how they grow: they toil not, they spin not; and yet I say unto you, that Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. 28: If then God so clothe the grass, which is to day in the field, and to morrow is cast into the oven; how much more will he clothe you, O ye of little faith? 29: And seek not ye what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink, neither be ye of doubtful mind. 30: For all these things do the nations of the world seek after: and your Father knoweth that ye have need of these things. 31: But rather seek ye the kingdom of God; and all these things shall be added unto you. 32: Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom.

Subject: Re: Yeah, what works? From: Mickey the Pharisee To: Dep Date Posted: Fri, Jul 05, 2002 at 11:57:30 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Oh, so he isn't saying 'Don't worry, trust God.' He's saying, 'meditate and you will be taken care of.' Where, exactly, is the meditation reference? Or do you claim that the Kingdom of God is eyeball squeezing? You really think that Jesus was a meditation teacher? Oh, before you respond 'you think Jesus was a social worker' let me say that, no, I believe that Jesus was an intinerant preacher and healer, but he wanted his followers to feed the hungry, give drink to the thirsty, clothe the naked, heal the sick, visit the prisoner and welcome the stranger as the means of bringing about the Reign of God.

Subject: Re: What works indeed? From: Dep To: Mickey the Pharisee Date Posted: Tues, Jul 02, 2002 at 19:04:27 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Actually Dep, Jesus made many references to sowing and harvesting, especially in reference to the Kingdom of God (I prefer the term Reign of God since I'm not a royalist). Matthew 13:18-31 is full of 'gardening references.' As for Matthew 6:33, do you think that Jesus meant that as long as you meditate you will have food and clothing? If this is so, why does India have so many poor? I think that you are a bit naive to think that meditation will solve the problems of our prison population; it is just as naive to go in and 'save' everyone in the prisons. I'm with Marianne on this one. Oh, by the way, just what IS John:24? There are only 21 chapters to the gospel of John. Mickey the exegete. --- Thanks Mickey, I had no idea Jesus was so interested in horticulture. It should be John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. What does Jesus mean by Mark 8:36. For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? I'm sure your interpretation would curdle my blood. I’d love to hear your interpretation of Psalm 23. I think it would probably go something like this: '1': The LORD is my shepherd; I shall not want. David is obviously talking about sheep farming here. '2': He maketh me to lie down in green pastures: he leadeth me beside the still waters. Again references to fields of beets perhaps or other green plants, and walking beside a nice quiet lake. '3': He restoreth my soul: he leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for his name's sake. He is obviously talking about shoe repair and accurate maps so you get to the right place. '4': Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me. I don’t know what he is talking about here. Definitely not energy rising up the spine. '5': Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enemies: thou anointest my head with oil; my cup runneth over. Again obvious references to dining room furniture, quality hair products, and unfortunately poor table manners. Please stop pouring when you see the cup is full! '6': Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of the LORD for ever. The house of the Lord? A nice three bedroom bungalow perhaps, with a finished basement and in a nice neighbourhood. Frightening!

Subject: Re: What works indeed? From: Neville To: Dep Date Posted: Wed, Jul 03, 2002 at 15:57:59 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: One should not push a metaphor too far... Neville

Subject: Re: What works indeed? From: Mickey the Pharisee To: Dep Date Posted: Wed, Jul 03, 2002 at 04:33:42 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: That Psalm 23 thing was pretty funny, Dep. But I really don't spend a lot of time *interpreting* the Bible, especially the psalms. The psalms were liturgical music and poetry, I don't think that they are full of great mystical meaning. It seems that you see the Hebrew and Christian scriptures as some sort of mystical puzzle which requires deciphering. Do you really think that the second half of verse 4 of psalm 23 (your point 4) actually has to do with the kundalini? Do you really think it is about energy rising up the spine? Don't you think that, since the author is using sheep herding as a metaphor of his relationship with God, that the 'rod and staff' actually represent a rod and staff, the means by which a shepherd directs the sheep? More probable than your 'interpretation,' I think. As for Mark 8:36, if you read the verse in context, Jesus is talking about the possiblity of persecution. The verse before the one you quoted reads 'For those who want to save their life will lose it, and those who lose their life for my sake, and for the sake of the gospel, will save it.' The gospel of Mark was probably written just after the destruction of the Temple in 70 CE and the beginning of some small-scale persecutions so the author was inserting a word of comfort to his readers who were suffering persecution. Jesus probably did not say this stuff. I hope your blood isn't curdling.

Subject: Re: What works indeed? From: Neville To: Mickey the Pharisee Date Posted: Wed, Jul 03, 2002 at 16:26:32 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hmm. I would have read the Mark 8:34-38 as pretty fundamental, theologically. Of course you have to lose your life--you can't be born again unless you have first died. (Unless a seed fall into the ground etc.) Perhaps that's why so many people who walk around claiming to be born again are about as convincing as a seven pound note--they never understood that a spritual death must precede spiritual rebirth. Christ may not have spoken those specific words (but Matt repeated the whole of Mark, so he must have found it convincing—and where is Q in this argument?) but the underlying principles run right through the NT. Neville

Subject: Re: What works indeed? From: Mickey the Pharisee To: Neville Date Posted: Wed, Jul 03, 2002 at 17:58:15 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The reason I do not read it as a baptismal reference is because he says '...those who lose their life for my sake and the sake of the gospel.' Remember, the 'born again' stuff is Johaninne and not part of theology of Mark. The Jesus of Mark calls for repentance but not for one to be 'born again.' And, since we are talking about Mark's gospel, Q really doesn't enter into the discussion, in my opinion. Of course, none of it has anything to do with squeezing your eyeballs.

Subject: Point taken [nt] From: Neville To: Mickey the Pharisee Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 04, 2002 at 02:22:55 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Jesus and Monty Python From: Dep To: Mickey the Pharisee Date Posted: Wed, Jul 03, 2002 at 05:26:43 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Who can forget that hilarious scene in The Life of Brian when Jesus speaking to a crowd says, 'Blessed are the peacemakers.' A man at the back of the crowd didn't hear properly, so he asks the person standing next to him what Jesus said. The person next to him answers, 'Blessed are the cheesemakers.' 'Cheesmakers?' the man says in surprise. 'Well not just cheesemakers,' the second person replies, 'People involved in all aspects of the dairy industry.'

Subject: Re: Jesus and Monty Python From: Mickey the Pharisee To: Dep Date Posted: Wed, Jul 03, 2002 at 13:38:14 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hahahahaha, yeah, that was a good movie, and the Monty Python guys had a better grasp of theology biblical scholarship than you do. I guess you are not going to address my comments, so, once again, I will refrain from reading your posts, although I do request that you stop proof-texting like a Fundamentalist.

Subject: Fundamentalism, passive aggression and anger From: hamzen To: Mickey the Pharisee Date Posted: Wed, Jul 03, 2002 at 15:29:23 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: management. Sorry to use you Mickey, but dep is avoiding my posts, probably too aggressive for such a sensitive soul and I refuse to let this rest. But why is it that the most sensitive souls are riddled with passive aggression and avoidance techniques, and least able to deal with this planet when they supposedly understand spirit better than anyone else, very puzzling. I suspect it's all about anger avoidance, I think all introverts should be forced into anger management classes in primary school, it would have saved me so much time and grief, and probasbly all of us who became 'premies', and a lot of new agers too.

Subject: Re: Correction! From: Jerry To: Dep Date Posted: Mon, Jul 01, 2002 at 12:39:10 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you. What does this have to do with Vipassana, Dep? Are you thinking about getting into this? I hear they have a ten day course, free of charge. They provide food and accomodations. You just provide the donation. I wonder if they take apples and oranges like they did at a K session.

Subject: And before peace arrives? From: hamzen To: Dep Date Posted: Mon, Jul 01, 2002 at 10:22:40 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: And everyone gets the message, what? Let em all rot and stew in their own juices? Also if you or your family members were attacked you wouldn't fight back to protect them?

Subject: plus From: hamzen To: Marianne Date Posted: Mon, Jul 01, 2002 at 00:37:00 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: this is the deputy dog who said any anger is totally destructive and to be avoided like the plague. Right so when they are being trashed or are homeless and are up against it remembering the name will stop all that, right. Like a lot of new agers I think dep's got an anger management problem and is in total denial. Don't blame hjim for it, I've got the same problem re relationships, too romantic, too idealized, always disappointed then heartbroken, whichever side it's finished. We were a bunch of over sensitive no-hopers when it comes to the heart.

Subject: God Realisation From: JohnT To: All Date Posted: Sun, Jun 30, 2002 at 14:29:20 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: This was posted to me by a premie over at the Symposium. The original's here, if you're interested -- I've edited what follows to focus on the incredible conceit that even the 'nicest' premies display. I've added emphasis to the phrase I have seen no evidence that satisfies me that complete God-realization can be achieved thru any other path than the one (M) opens. This seems to be the bub of it. No premie could go further in allowing the pssobilities that there are other paths to, uhhh, whatever-it-is. Yet despite all the apparent open-mindedness, there it is. The same old, same old. Exes never got it. The experience. Enlightenment, God Realisation. Whatever. M is the real McCoy, and all you exes just a bunch of losers. As for a never like me. Well, I dunno. Am I lower than you souls who at least tried to hear the word (but were too thick, deaf, in your minds, whatever, to get it)? Or are you lower than me, for I never heard the word only to spurn it? See, I had no chance before my mind was poisoned by you low lifes! You tell me. I'm off to throw up. ... while I can only affirm M's way for enabling a person to get linked with that thing within that I believe is the form of what the scriptures call God where it can be directly experianced by a living human being, I do not attempt to say that no other way to achieve that state can exist. ... some positive stuff ... happened to some jail house Christians as some 'grace' that had come to them thru their sincerity. And I've seen some AAs who are not premies have some results that strongly suggest to me a connection to God within them, tho not one that smacks of the kind of experiences the authors of scriptures describe such as I have had by M's kindness in revealing K to me and because K works. Can other ways work? Clearly 'Yes' for other things than what his initiation and subsequent use of the kryas as he instructs does, probably 'Yes' for a more limited form of God-realization. I have seen no evidence that satisfies me that complete God-realization can be achieved thru any other path than the one he opens to folks; obviously I can't rule that out as I didn't try all paths by a long shot! But is he the only Master, or even the only Master of this path? I don't pretend to know, never have. I only state he IS a Master of this path, which CAN be used for direct internal experiance of God, and that occasionally even allows external exoeriances of God to occur. And I state this unequivically as testimony based on events I have experienced myself, some of which I have described on these fora. ...

Subject: Re: God Realisation From: Carlos - To JohnT To: JohnT Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 04, 2002 at 17:54:25 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Did you even notice how your whole interpretation of the 1 part you chose to empasize was shown clearly as the bullshit it is by the rest of what you copied? I do thank you, incidently, for not just taking that 1 line by itself, out of context. It blew your case, tho, sinse I clearly stated I didn't rule out other equal paths or Masters, just that I'd never run across anything else that convinced me of its validity. Hell, you go further than I do; you rule out M and K, too! And at least I only ruled out ones I'd tried that didn't do it for me ... and even there left open the possibility it was in me, not in those other paths or Masters. Yet somehow you make me out to be the arrogant one in this exchange!!! It is not a stretch for most folks to understand the idea behind an 'I can only comment on what I've witnessed myself' report. I wonder what, in you, makes that so difficult?

Subject: Re: God Realisation From: Jerry To: JohnT Date Posted: Mon, Jul 01, 2002 at 09:27:01 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: What I'd like to know from Carlos is why some people don't experience God when they practice the techniques? I certainly never have. The way I figure it is, if there is a God, what's so special about Carlos that through these techniques he's come to know God, but others haven't. And why would a technique be required at all when you come to think of it? If God truly is within, then he should, well, just be there, no techniques required. Seems kind of silly to me that God created us, lives inside of us, and then got lost there, somehow, where he'd have to make us in such a way that he'd send a messenger/prophet with some meditation techniques so we could find him again. Sounds like an odd way of doing things. You have to figure that if God really wanted us to know him, he could just reveal himself at his own leisure. What need would he have of gurus and meditation? After all, he's God, isn't he? Sometimes you just gotta stop and think about these things. Unfortunately, when you do, it has a tendency to burst the bubble you're living in. Right, Carlos?

Subject: Re: God Realisation From: Carlos - To Jerry To: Jerry Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 04, 2002 at 18:24:44 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You ask, 'why some people don't experience God when they practice the techniques?'. I don't know. It certainly isn't that I am special in any way I know of. But I didn't experience the thing I believe is God just within, nor did the techniques open the door for me the times I leared them before it was thru M. So my guess is that his initiation reconnects a connection that somehow gets broken as infants learn to use their senses to focus outside. And some of us recognize that thing within as what it is, IMO, and some of us don't. Probably has to do with free will, in some way; which makes sense if we are all God in a bod, as I also believe. How could 1 part of God force another part of Himself to recognize anything? You also ask, 'why would a technique be required at all when you come to think of it? If God truly is within, then he should, well, just be there, no techniques required.' He IS there, no techniques required. Recognizing him seems to require a valid initiation, practice of the kryas, and thga attitude of a student. I don't know why it seems to work that way, either. Again, all of us being equally manifestations of God, and the Creation seeming to have been set up so that learning to focus our senses outside seems to break the connection we seem to have been born having (at least observing my daughter in her 1st few weeks of life certainl;y convinced me she was in samhadi, and even tho as her dad I'm convinced she is special my head knows that she wasn't different. We just are ALL special). I do agree with you that God the Creator could have chosen to do things differently than the way I believe things are. The point you seem to be missing is that if God the Creator exsists or exsisted s/he/it could choose, as far as we know, to do it ANY WAY s/he/it cared to. What I believe is the way s/he/it chose is just as possible, and as difficult to prove externally and objectively, as yours. You might try the study of Symbolic Logic, Jerry. One of the things you'll learn is that any chain of logic requires at least 2 assumptions. Change the assumptions and you'll change what conclusions are logical. Our assumptions are different today, tho at one time you may have shared mine (at least from what you say). I don't know, and don't care what you did or went thru for you to change your assumptions. That's your business. But I tested mine, and I'm happy with the degree and kind of proof I found. To any readers who feel satsanged, my apologies. I tried to respond to Jerry without disrespecting you by doing that; this is the best I could do.

Subject: Ah, but maybe God's like, um, shy [nt] From: Livia To: Jerry Date Posted: Tues, Jul 02, 2002 at 06:10:41 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Right On , Jerry (NT) From: The Falcon To: Jerry Date Posted: Mon, Jul 01, 2002 at 15:33:31 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Supreme arrogance From: Livia To: JohnT Date Posted: Sun, Jun 30, 2002 at 14:40:07 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Interesting. And it's extreme arrogance, nothing less. When you really think about it, how can one ever say that one's path is 'the only way'? Without trying every single other path, how can one possibly say? 'I have seen no evidence that satisfies me that complete God-realization can be achieved thru any other path than the one he opens.' How far has he looked, I wonder? I'm afraid his protestations smack only of the need to be on the one superior path. It's no different to Christians saying Christ is the only way. It's fundamentalism, arrogance, spiritual one-upmanship, and I was guilty of it myself for 30 years. Livia

Subject: Re: Supreme arrogance From: Carlos - To Livia To: Livia Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 04, 2002 at 18:50:34 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Pity you didn't read the whole quote. I commented on the very thing you mentioned, that just because I hadn't found it elsewhere didn't mean it wasn't somewhere I HADN'T tried. I even went further, by saying that some of the paths or Masters that hadn't worked for me might have failed because of ME, not them; I mentioned both that I might not have been ready or that I might have stopped them from working for me somehow. I also spoke (briefly) about some of the other paths I'd tried. But since you skipped that, too, and apear to think it is relevent: 1) 7 years total in rigerous study of martial arts, including private lessons when I started by an American Black Belt in Jhoon Rhee's sparring circle in Washington, DC. Took it to where I studied 2 Korean styles of Karate, 1 Japanese style of Karate, Judo, Shao Lin Temple Boxing (primarily Southern style, without the heavy emphasis on body strength and power of Northern style). Took it far enough that when the last instructer I worked out with created a self-defense course for women he called 'Jukado' because it combined elements of Judo, Karate and Akido he asked me to be his assistant even tho I am woefully ignorant of Akido. 2) Mastered enough Hatha Yoga Asanas that I was an assistant instructer of an intermediate level class. When my breathing and heart both apparently stopped for over an hour in the ashram in Puerto Rico I was doing 3rd technique while in Lotus. 3) Pranayama, with varios teachers, but never in that 3H group of seiks (sp?), tho I sometimes practiced with some of them who were friends. 4) Japa. Never did TM, but I was a Shivite for about 5 years before K, and tried many mantras. 4) Checked out the major religions, including their better recognized mystics. Read Spinoza, St. Augustine, etc. Studied the Kaballa. Hung out with Wiccans, and attended a few rituals of a coven in New Orleans and another i9n Chicago. Read all of the major Scriptures except the Qu'uran (because a Muslim friend I trusted on such things told me there is no good English translation and I haven't enough interest in it to learn Arabic). I could go on, but why ?

Subject: Re: any other path From: AV To: Livia Date Posted: Mon, Jul 01, 2002 at 07:45:59 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'In the land of truth there are no paths..' quote, I believe, from Krishnamurti. In the 'unambiguous' Glastonbury satsang M is really clear that Knowledge of God cannot be obtained by sects or religions; so then what is knowledge in the sense he meant it? The techniques? we all know now how freely avaible they are, and indeed are available in some form from SRF (Yogananda's Mission) and in India probably from many teachers. (Btw, I wonder if Sat Pal's initiation is the same?) We also know how it seems the techniques conferred by Shri Hans may have differed subtly; there was a posting here someplace by a man who recieved K from one of the 'old' Mahatmas of SH and there were more than 4 techniques(this was back in the 60s I recollect). The implication was then, that some kind of revelatory experience is conveyed during the process of the K session, and in the days when mahatmas or instructors revealed K, then what was the medium that imparted the experience if M was not physically present? We believed at the time that M had a power as 'Satguru' to awaken that inner experience of the 'eternal self' through some kind of transference which was God-given and beyond the comprehension of the intellect. So how is it explained nowadays in the light of 'revisionism'? anybody know? Perhaps that what Krishnamurti meant, you couldn't follw a path to enlightenment, but an enlightened being could illuminate another soul. Or perhaps he meant that the very idea that there is a state we have to attain, and we need a path to attain it, prevents us from experiencing things as they really are in the present, which is our real illumination to discover that WE are the journey AND the destination. K made sense to me because at tomes it was possible to slow down the mental static and feel a richness of being, with or without the cosmic 'bells and whistles' that were described as the various experiences from each of the techniques. And I can see if you felt full and uplifted by the experience of just really being YOU in the HERE and NOW, then you would feel a sense of gratitude for being shown that. For me gratitude is spontaneous, you can't fake it and you certainly can't make it mandatory. But didn't the emphasis go away from that, to a browbeating style of messianic hinduism riven with pressure fear and anxiety. I ceased to be relaxed about knowledge within 5 of 6 years or so. It all got so heavy; meditation just became at times like another stick to beat myself with....shame ,I used to love it in the beginning. It wuz a blast! :) :) :) AV

Subject: To AV From: The Falcon To: AV Date Posted: Mon, Jul 01, 2002 at 15:46:22 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The quote is;-, 'The Truth is a pathless land' I met Krishnamurti in Hampshire in '71-lovely soul. With regards to tne techniques;- SRF is the best development of K, but know this- Sarupanand gave only 2 techniques. Light and Music combined (like SRF) plus Holy Name. Hans added Kechari Mudra-which I love.

Subject: Re: To Falcon. From: AV To: The Falcon Date Posted: Tues, Jul 02, 2002 at 02:38:36 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Falc, thanks for the info, very useful; did u talk with K in 71? Have you got any idea how K is presented/explained today? BTW;I listened to a tape of Yoganada, his last address before he died I believe. A very interesting and enjoyable discourse. Did you see the Glastonbury clip? How u r well. AV

Subject: Re: To AV From: The Falcon To: AV Date Posted: Tues, Jul 02, 2002 at 08:32:07 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: No I didn't speak to him much, just one introduced among many. He is presented through the books of his discourses, there is a particularly interesting conversation with the mathematician, David Bohm but I can't recall the title. Re; Glastonbury Fayre video-I have seen it many times. The biggest cheese in Kriya Yoga was in Archway, London recently, his name is S.S. Ramaiah.

Subject: Re: Supreme arrogance From: Thorin To: Livia Date Posted: Mon, Jul 01, 2002 at 04:45:33 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: What is god-realis(z)ation anyway?! Is god a long haired hippy, primomordial energy, my breathe, .....? Who gives a damn? Lots of love to you Liv Thorin

Subject: I think that's what keeps a lot of them hooked From: gerry To: Livia Date Posted: Sun, Jun 30, 2002 at 15:43:04 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: This idea of the supremest path. Wonder where that came from, huh?

Subject: No, it's not a joke... From: gerry To: All Date Posted: Sun, Jun 30, 2002 at 06:28:39 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'm moving to Anyboards software. Hang in there during the transition. Dave, I don't know why you can't register and log on. Chuck, thanks for your comments; This is like the Rolls Royce of forum software, compared to hotboards (which is like a '69 volkswagon beetle, with rust). The options are almost overwhelming. This has very fine possibilities. I approve Forum Eight www.anyboard.net/soc/religion/maharaji/index.html

Subject: Re: No, it's not a joke... From: Scott T. To: gerry Date Posted: Wed, Jul 03, 2002 at 08:13:28 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I keep getting a message that I haven't filled in the name field, which of course I have. Is a password required?

Subject: to the maharaji watch web directory From: can you add that forum 8 To: gerry Date Posted: Tues, Jul 02, 2002 at 04:48:38 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Rolls Royce of forum software? From: NowayDoc To: gerry Date Posted: Mon, Jul 01, 2002 at 22:11:40 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Bollocks gerry, you must be in desperation mode. That is el cheapo crap. It's the clunkiest most cluttered and crude HTML I've ever seen. I guess you've succeeeded in one thing though.... If you gather the sheep and herd them into that hotch potch of crazy onscreen sprites then you've .... guaranteed them a Doc free Zone! :) If you're serious about getting a good forum up and running, here's a tip....don't get anything written in less than XML code.

Subject: But it's awfully designed From: hamzen To: gerry Date Posted: Mon, Jul 01, 2002 at 06:24:15 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Have you checked out proboards? Admittedly having the chat room is cool, and pm's are a must on a decent forum, but gerry the design of that forum is disgusting. And the profiles are so limited. But you've probably already made your decision, ahh well, democracy rules as usual ;) There are also loads of other good forums available, much better look and feel.

Subject: OK How about some help then. From: gerry To: hamzen Date Posted: Tues, Jul 02, 2002 at 08:50:16 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The whole point of this exercise is not to make a bunch more busy work for myself-I've got so much work to do on the 'outside' it's not even funny- but to improve things on the X board, give people more options and make a more of a friendly 'community' feeling. If there are so many better formats out there, why don't you investigate and recommend one or two? And PS: Democracy would rule if anyone EVER bothered to vote...

Subject: Re: OK How about some help then. From: Scott T. To: gerry Date Posted: Wed, Jul 03, 2002 at 00:27:20 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: And PS: Democracy would rule if anyone EVER bothered to vote... But the real mystery is why anyone does. The odds that your vote will have an impact on the outcome are so miniscule, the issues so distant, and the agenda so pre-ordained, that voting behavior really *is* a mystery. It's like everyone turning out on the appointed day to help the heavens get past the solstice. We do it, but we're *really odd* creatures when you think about it. --Scott

Subject: They will vote even less From: hamzen To: gerry Date Posted: Tues, Jul 02, 2002 at 12:13:54 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: when they have no choices or chance though don't you think! No sweat, will go through me old forum list and see what I can find, it's a shame proboards aren't doing any free ones anymore, their boards are cool if maybe a bit techy design led for this old school crowd. I'm assuming you want free yeah?

Subject: Re: the voting thing... From: Chuck S. To: hamzen Date Posted: Tues, Jul 02, 2002 at 13:34:48 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The whole point of the rating posts thing was that if people didn't like a post, they could 'vote' it out of existance by rating it, without running to the FA and complaining that it should be removed. I think that may have had great appeal to Gerry ;). Unfortunately, it seems that many people felt their posts were being 'judged' and didn't like it. But it is those sort of things that need to get sorted out, so the board can get tweaked to be more like people want it to be. This is sort of a 'shake-down' cruise, I think, to get the bugs worked out, to find out what works for people and what doesn't. There are lots of options to explore on Anyboards. Ideally, the forum we end up with will be reliable, not cost too much, and allow people to choose what they want as much as possible, while sparing the FA as much work as possible. I know that if I were hosting this forum, that's what I would want! -)

Subject: Free or not Free, that's... From: Chuck S. To: hamzen Date Posted: Tues, Jul 02, 2002 at 13:17:00 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ... a good question. This Forum 7 on hotboards can cost as much as $100.00 or more a month. They bill $10.00 per 25,000 page views. That is considerabley cheaper than some other forums that might be better. Anyboards forum 8 is free, as is. To get rid of the ad banners means purchaseing a license, etc. Personally, the banner ads don't bother me much, I just ignore them like I do everywhere else on the internet. :) Paying for a forum is not out of the question, but a lot depends on how they bill. Aimoo Boards and EZ Boards billed around $10.00 or $15.00 for every 10,000 page views, so I considered them too expensive, plus I didn't like their design and lack of flexibility. I can't say much more about the budget, since this is Gerry's forum, he handles that, you would have to take it up with him. On F8, I've posted a few samples of other Anyboards, to show the variety of ways the boards can be configured. Have a look, maybe there is a design you will like better 8).

Subject: Ham, the design... From: Chuck S. To: hamzen Date Posted: Mon, Jul 01, 2002 at 13:37:43 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I didn't think the design was all that different, navigating Anyboards F8 is a little different, but you can get used to it quickly, it's not a big learning curve. You mentioned proboards. They are not accepting any new signups at this time. They refer people to something called Suddenlaunch.com. The design of their forums are truely awful. Poster's IP numbers are show, and there is no option to turn if off. I've checked out other fourms like Aimoo boards and EZboards. Didn't like their design, and they were expensive. Can you recommend some other forum hosts worth considering? Anyboards is great! It's layout is the closest I've seen to being similar to hotboards. The controls are very good, it's super easy to upload pics... there may be a few configuration tweaks to work out, but I hope folks will give it a chance. It has the potential to be a very good troll-free forum. Trolls may not be a problem right now, but that could change quickly -).

Subject: I'll check me list chuck From: hamzen To: Chuck S. Date Posted: Tues, Jul 02, 2002 at 12:25:33 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Re design of anyboards, can recommend a post peter pan design course for yas to catch up on the 20th and 21st c's, :) Techy wise not bad, didn't check whether you can embed flash or not, wish you could do more with the profiles, but the design, yuch, did you attend the billy connolly school of design!!! Apologies to pat too, yeah, tapes were dropping out on one channel on re-listening before sending, having to go through a batch of 25 at the mo, so apologies fort the delay, can't imagine he's too bothered though unlike some people who're giving me loads of grief, if friendly. Ohh to be able to afford decent equipment, ahh well, being an old hippy does have it's other bonuses. You after free or are you willing to pay, limits $ wise?

Subject: Can't see the point - I like it here From: Livia To: gerry Date Posted: Mon, Jul 01, 2002 at 04:15:33 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I must still be a Luddite at heart even with all these new-found computer skills. I just can't see the point of setting up this new complicated sounding forum 8. Why have posts that can't be answered? That means people from LG and all sorts of trolls could come over and start saying stuff we can't argue with. I mean, what is the point? Dammit all, I like it here! I like it here the way it is, and I don't want it to change. If it works, why fix it? Livia, in a bad mood now.

Subject: Re: Can't see the point - I like it here From: Vicki To: Livia Date Posted: Mon, Jul 01, 2002 at 10:04:45 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I agree with you Livia. But then again, my computer skills are nill and I've tried to log in to F8 three times to no avail. Which makes me wonder, will it be too hard for old foggies like me when they first come to EPO and then tentatively the forums. I can understand how it would be most appealing for computer wiz kids here, except for that bit about your point in trolls posting. Maybe there is a need for four forums after all!

Subject: I just want this place to stay the same From: Livia To: Vicki Date Posted: Tues, Jul 02, 2002 at 00:37:45 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Agree with you completely. Some of the people who first come here are not very up in computer skills and would be put off completely by a site requiring passwords and lots of know-how. Surely we want a forum such as this to be as accessible as possible to as many people as possible. I know I'm being a bit of a stick-in-the-mud but if it aint broke why fix it? Love, Liv

Subject: When does this place close? From: AJW To: gerry Date Posted: Sun, Jun 30, 2002 at 09:27:03 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi gerry, I just hopped over to the new forum and managed to post a message ok. When is this place closing down? And who is that woman in her underwear, trying to sell me printers? Anth the forum hopper

Subject: It's my wife tryin' to make a buck From: gerry To: AJW Date Posted: Sun, Jun 30, 2002 at 10:10:53 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I mean my live-in girlfriend. I'm in no hurry to close 7 and I want to work out the inevitables and let y'all get used to it. Once I'm satisfied the new board works, I'll work on eliminating the ads. PS Your post is currently rated a 8.5 at F8

Subject: I don't get the instruction... From: Cynthia To: gerry Date Posted: Sun, Jun 30, 2002 at 08:25:38 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Gerry, can you email me? sylviecyn@yahoo.com I think I'm logged in but...I have questions...:C)

Subject: i hope webtv can handle it From: janet To: gerry Date Posted: Sun, Jun 30, 2002 at 08:14:02 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: or it'll be more than a joke, It'll kill my ability to be here.

Subject: Well, hell, try it From: gerry To: janet Date Posted: Sun, Jun 30, 2002 at 08:36:13 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You're cranky this morning.

Subject: New Features on F8 From: gerry To: gerry Date Posted: Sun, Jun 30, 2002 at 09:08:01 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Multi-page threaded or non-threaded message board Register and protect your identity with a password Auto fill-in of your name and e-mail address after you login for each session. Once logged in, you do not need to enter your user name again during the session. The ability to modify your own posts. The ability to delete your own posts. The ability to prevent replies to any of your posts The ability to send/receive email notifications for new posts. The ability to upload a file when you post, which is then automatically linked. If a .gif or .jpg image file, it will be displayed automatically. Identify new posts easily (by different color) The ability to use HTML in the message body (HTML will not work in the Subject field). The ability to add link URLs. Automatic detection and linking of URLs in message body. The ability to add image links. The ability for the message body to be empty, sometimes called NT (No Text) posts. Posts with an image are so indicated on the main page. Register just once for multiple forums on the same site. Login and password for each user will work for all forums. You can search message body (CPU intensive) as well as subject field for keywords (Find feature) within a date range. You can use the Overview feature to read top level posts (without replies) You will be banned automatically after a setable number of violations :-) Easy access to information. Very readable layout. At a glance of the message line, a user knows whether the post is new (coloring), size of the message, whether it has an image link inside, rating of the message (if enabled), number of replies to it, and the number of visits to it (if enabled). One can also collapse or expand the threading. Where am I? function allows a user to find out where he is among a big thread of discussion. Modifiable user profiles. Registered users can create and modify their profiles and passwords. Rate posts or articles and see stars and vote counts next to them. Detects and rejects 'double rating' on the same page. Peer moderation when enabled, posts rated below certain point will not be shown on the main forum. Private discussions between any two registered users. Unlimited number of suveys. Chat room. Many more. Here's the manual netbula.com/anyboard/manual/manual.html

Subject: Re: New Features on F8 From: JohnT To: gerry Date Posted: Sun, Jun 30, 2002 at 14:59:05 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The ability to prevent replies to any of your posts Hmmmm. Am I missing something here? Sorry to be picky an' all, but ain't these here what-do-you-call-'ems supposed to be, uhh, what's the word ... discussion boards? Mind you, I kinda like the idea all the same. JohnT - never answered back again

Subject: John, did you see this? [nt] From: gerry To: JohnT Date Posted: Sun, Jun 30, 2002 at 15:58:28 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Extra! Extra! Read all about it! www.anyboard.net/soc/religion/maharaji/posts/110.html

Subject: Re: New Features on F8 From: Cynthia To: gerry Date Posted: Sun, Jun 30, 2002 at 12:20:13 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks. I linked to the instructions, copied yours, and am going back outside for a drink of sunshine and hope I don't get burned.

Subject: Excite Doc Reunion From: Bolly To: All Date Posted: Sun, Jun 30, 2002 at 05:21:23 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Sir, I'm not really geared up with this electronic stuff and have not organised email adress. Mark has been invalided out of the force, usual pension rights assigned. Maybe a regimental reunion would be in order, it's probably 25 years since the unit disbanded. The records can;t be released for 100 years under the official secrets act. Several members have found it difficult to adjust to life in civvy st. It is likely Mark will attend the forthcoming celebrations in Brighton. If he reports in before then I will forward your message. At ease and get that hair cut. Must go now and polish the brass buttons on my uniform. Private Bolly (retired, with full honours, no pension)

Subject: Re: Excite Doc Reunion From: The falcon To: Bolly Date Posted: Sun, Jun 30, 2002 at 11:06:10 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Bolly, I hope that you prime Doc to be somewhat surprised when he meets Mark again, I know him as he was in business with some good friends of mine, just pleased he is still intact(?) WPC-what a fucking joke! Military manouveres, lead off church roofs, drug dealing (even then, stolen building materials for Ally Pally stage , complete with quotes from the Bible but John Lindus-what a star! got out very early but not unscathed, thank God! Charles Pennington Leigh? - ask Jeff Stubley! all the best The Falcon (just a couple of mice this time, sorry!)

Subject: Re: Excite Doc Reunion From: Bolly To: The falcon Date Posted: Sun, Jun 30, 2002 at 14:44:48 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks for that, I see Marks partner more often than I see him. She works real hard and perseveres with her lot in life. I doubt that there are any pwks whose lives have taken a dive that don't question how come when they followed the instructions on the bottle things could get so bad. I don't know what your definition of intact is, some times for me it's well I'm still breathing so I'll persevere. For Mark that might be most of the time or even all of it. Just out of curiosity it would be interesting to know how the Pennington Leigh fortunes panned out. Last time I saw them was twenty years ago, in a rather nice house the Home Counties. I'm quite curious to know how far down the food chain the con was operating. My concious questioning of the value of the cult goes back several years and I've not picked up on the gossip rumour/circuit. What happened with John Lindus? I heard something blew up but not the details. The John I knew was an okay guy, is he doing alright? More in sorrow than anger, Bolly

Subject: Re: Excite Doc Reunion From: The Falcon To: Bolly Date Posted: Mon, Jul 01, 2002 at 00:41:10 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: John is now a very successful artist despite having much of his earlier work stolen in Russia. Charles is still in the security business, I believe.(probably the same one he conned from Jeff Stubley)-true!)

Subject: Thanks Boll + Can you fill me in Fal? From: ExciteDoc To: The Falcon Date Posted: Mon, Jul 01, 2002 at 22:30:39 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks Pvt Bolly, for that info and Fal for the update: I'd love to hear how Mark progressed through the Mire of England's 1970's and 80's. It's true that the directions on the bottle did NOT include 'Lose All Worldly Assests and Credibilty Whilst Pursuing the LIGHT.' :( I can't imagine Mark being anything less than Full On enthusiastic in any pursuit he involves in but I will prepare for a surprise (when nothing would in this day and age) Talking of old service medal comrades, do either of you good soldiers remember Charlie Mcrow? WPC middle rank. Him and I used to play music together until I became jealous of his technical superiority and went into a sulk. I imagine he'd now be a fine middle aged Brit gent basking somewhere south of London on the Thames (which is where I found him in 1986). I believe he deserted or was discharged in the early eighties but I could be wrong. He was a 'Shri' with me for about five minutes in the 70's until the sick feeling of hypocricy put a swift end to our charade. As for nicking materials for the POP, now THAT was more our style ;) As ease men. *****

Subject: It was both him and us From: Peter R. To: All Date Posted: Sun, Jun 30, 2002 at 02:46:33 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I was in Paris some years back and visited the Army Museum. There, in a glass case, were Napoleon's grey overcoat and black cocked hat. I immediately felt an energy leap across to me, and felt projected deeply into Holy Name (better than anything remotely experienced in meditation for days). At Rome 1990, after an entirely fruitless first session, perched in a remote corner about a mile from the stage, I took a walk, ending at the Spanish Steps. There was a huge crowd on the pavement. I asked a blissed looking woman what it was about, and she said 'Il Papa'. True to form, the Popemobile trundled round the corner and the mob went ecstatic. I was as blissed out as anyone. The explanation for the Napoleonic experience is presumably that, because I always used to be a fervent admirer in younger days, I automatically tripped at the trigger of his old uniform and manifested deep love for him (the alternative explanation, that it was Napoleon coming through to me seems less plausible..) In the Rome situation, I was caught up in a general group anticipation and exhilaration. (I felt rather guilty about this, but had a good experience with M next day). In the case of videos, however, the reality seems different. I've sat through endless ones which were a total tribulation (coca cola analogies, rolexes, etc.). On other occasions, I was totally transfixed, as Maharaji spoke poetically and beautifully of really meaningful things. I attribute the latter to moments when Maharaji himself was in good form, and the energy was flowing through. I think much of the time he isn't experiencing anything much good himself (consciousness jaded through malpractices, cognac...?). In earlier years, when I had ecstatic experiences, listening to him at Festivals, with tears rolling, I am quite convinced that there was a transference taking place from his heart to mine. Similarly, when we danced with him, it was on a totally different level to the mindlessness I experienced watching Roger Daltry smash his guitar to pieces in 1967. Receiving Knowledge is a real experience, Bris, no matter what the teacher later becomes, or how he hazards his own power by substance abuse. In that session, access to the inner sensory organs was restored to you by a transfer of energy. Jesus himself gave K, or a form of this: For when they had seen him and had heard him, he granted them to taste him and to smell him and to touch the beloved Son........... Again, speaking new things, still speaking about what is in the heart of the Father, he brought forth the flawless word. (The Gospel of Thomas). Though he isn't the Lord, Maharaji is still a master, though a flawed one. He's perhaps one of many who can give the same divine experience. No amount of belief that it's just projection and wishful thinking is going to change that.

Subject: Re: It was both him and us From: Anon To: Peter R. Date Posted: Tues, Jul 02, 2002 at 13:46:28 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Can some ex tell me how do you manage without holy name, after all these years, or do you still meditate or what. If Maharaji is a sham, and he is, how do we explain the definite powerfull expieriences which we had, Where do we go from here, in my case 30 years down the drain

Subject: To anon From: Peter R. To: Anon Date Posted: Wed, Jul 03, 2002 at 02:05:28 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Can some ex tell me how do you manage without holy name, after all these years, or do you still meditate or what. If Maharaji is a sham, and he is, how do we explain the definite powerfull expieriences which we had, Where do we go from here, in my case 30 years down the drain --- Although we undoubtedly projected many of our own feelings and desires onto Maharaji over all these years, the experiences we had in meditation were very real. Holy Name (or whichever name you give it) is the life source inside. I had various experiences of this before Knowledge, and it is experienced to different degrees, spontaneously or through spiritual practices by many people. I believe that the process of receiving K made this life force more accessible to me, and I believe it to be divine. Whether you follow Maharaji in future or not, you will always have access to that force, should treasure all your various meditational experiences of the past, and (I believe) have trust in the wisdom of the universal creator. I'm following Maharaji now as a flawed teacher. I no longer see guru as greater than God, but God greater than everything, because he created everything, including guru. Nothing is lost. Everything is retained, because I was aspiring to God via Maharaji. All these good experiences ultimately come from God.

Subject: Peter, how do you know this? From: JHB To: Peter R. Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 04, 2002 at 15:01:36 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Peter, You have had experiences of Holy Name that are mind boggling, but let's face it, our minds can quite easily be boggled. What I have asked here many times, and am now asking you, is, do you have any evidence that what you experience is indeed the 'life force inside'? I notice that you were honest and only believe it to be divine:) This is a serious question, as I have many unanswered questions about my own experiences both before and after receiving knowledge. If this stuff really is the life force, how can we tell? Having been fooled big time once, I really need some corroboration, other than my own perception, for something this big. How can we avoid being fooled by our own minds? John.

Subject: An also the bad ones. From: Sulla To: Peter R. Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 04, 2002 at 08:49:10 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: To Anon From: The Falcon To: Anon Date Posted: Wed, Jul 03, 2002 at 00:34:44 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I have noticed no difference whatsoever, in fact there has been a deepening of being since letting go of all the concepts. (M included) Each one of us is totally responsible for our own experience, however, the whole darshan thing was very catalytic but 'projection' nonetheless. The most charismatic person I ever saw was Princess Diana. She really glowed, much more than Maharaji, why? - because she was loved by millions e.g 'projection' where do we go from here? ever onwards, mate! Love your Life, have the attitude of gratitude and remember to breathe! As Bob Dylan wrote,'you don't need the weatherman to tell which way the wind blows' Th old paradigm of one to many is well and truly over. All the supposed god-men are being exposed as human, all too human. all the best

Subject: Re: It was both him and us From: janet To: Peter R. Date Posted: Sun, Jun 30, 2002 at 08:23:58 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'it worked because you believed it would'. none of the experiences mitigate the wrongs, the suicides, the abortions, the broken marriages, the abandoned children, the concubines,the unearned millions, the deliberate deceptions, concealments, dishonest revisions, uncaring treatment, et al. none of it.

Subject: You. Cannot. Be. Serious. From: Neville To: Peter R. Date Posted: Sun, Jun 30, 2002 at 07:38:54 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'Jesus himself gave K, or a form of this.' This is an absurd claim. For starters, you are using refs from a 'gospel' that was written centuries too late to be authoritative—-typical premie selectivity. (BTW we have fragments of Mark's Gospel at Magdalene College, Oxford, dated at about 50AD--powerful evidence that it was written early enough to be accurate history.) You are completely ignoring what Christ actually did teach, as recorded in the most authoritative documents we have. This teaching was in no way pantheistic-—it was clearly theistic. He preached against the law of karma (as expressed in the attitude to people's misfortunes). He preached against mantras. (Surprised? See Matthew 6 v 7.) He in no way, shape or form supported reincarnation. And so on. Regardless of whether or not you accept the teachings of the New Testament it is hard to imagine any spiritual teaching further removed from that of Maharaji. It is opposite in all manner of respects. I'm frankly astonished that anyone is still pedalling such a ridiculous claim. Neville

Subject: About gospels... From: Sulla To: Neville Date Posted: Mon, Jul 01, 2002 at 22:34:12 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Elaine H. Pagels: The Harrington Spear Paine Foundation Professor of Religion Princeton University Q Today there are people who talk about Q as though it's a gospel. Q, as I see it, is not a gospel, it's a hypothesis. When scholars first began to study the gospels of the New Testament, literarily, they discovered that Matthew and Luke both used Mark as the core, sort of the basic story line that they tell. Because Mark is completely incorporated - 16 chapters - into both Matthew and Luke. But they both also used other sayings, parables, and stories and so forth. And scholars observed that there's a part of the sayings in Matthew that are exactly identical with sayings in Luke. In fact they're identical in Greek. Now think -- Jesus spoke Aramaic. So if you were translating Aramaic, and if I were translating Aramaic, they'd come out different, these translations. So you would only have Jesus speaking identical sayings in Greek if you had a written translation in Greek of his sayings. And so scholars suggested that there must have been, besides Mark, something else written down that would have been a list of the sayings of Jesus, translated into Greek. And they called that 'Quelle' which means source in German. And they call it for short, 'Q.' Nobody ever has found this source written. We can reconstruct it because we guess that there was such a written source, but nobody has seen it, and it certainly in my mind is not a gospel. It's a very good and well-founded hypothesis. If it isn't gospel then what is it? It was a source of the sayings of Jesus, and it's another picture of Jesus. For example, whoever collected the sayings of Q wasn't interested in the death of Jesus, wasn't interested in the resurrection of Jesus. They thought the importance of Jesus was what he said, what he preached. Now other people thought, 'it's not enough to have the sayings of Jesus. You have to tell about his death and his crucifixion and his resurrection, that's the important thing.' Now somebody put that all together and we call it Matthew, and we call it Mark, and we call it Luke. But originally these are probably rather distinct pictures. Read more on Q in this essay by Marilyn Mellowes, and the Atlantic Monthly article The Search for a No-Frills Jesus. home . jesus' many faces . jesus' world . storytellers . first christians . why did christianity succeed? maps, archaeology & sources . discussion New Content Copyright © 1998 PBS and WGBH/FRONTLINE Q is the designation for a gospel that no longer exists, but many think must have existed at one time. In fact, even though no copy of this gospel has survived independently, some nineteenth-century scholars found fragments of such an early Christian composition embeded in the gospels of Matthew and Luke. By putting these two gospels beside that of Mark, scholars realized that when Matthew and Luke are telling the story about Jesus, for the most part they both follow the order and often even the wording of Mark. But, into this common narrative outline, Matthew and Luke each insert extra sayings and teachings of Jesus. And although Matthew and Luke do not put these sayings in the same order, nevertheless they each repeat many of the same sayings, sometimes word for word. Since for other reasons it seems unlikely that either Matthew or Luke could have copied from the other, how can this sort of agreement be explained? The answer appears to be that Matthew and Luke each had two sources in common: the Gospel of Mark and another gospel, now lost, a collection of sayings known only as Q. Q stands for 'Quelle,' the German word for source. Although no actual copy of Q has ever been found, many scholars are convinced that such a document once circulated in early Christian communities. Since it was difficult to get excited about something that did not exist, Q remained a hypothesis that lingered on the edges of scholarly research. But in 1945, a chance discovery in Egypt provided surprisingly new evidence that rekindled interest in the possible existence of Q. Two brothers were looking for fertilizer at the base of cliffs in the Egyptian region of Nag Hammadi, where the Nile bends on its way from Chenoboskeia to Pabau. As they searched, the brother called Mohammad Ali hit a hard object, concealed under the ground. It proved to be a huge earthen jar, closed with a shallow red dish. At first Mohammad Ali was afraid to open the jar, lest a jinn might be closed up inside it. But finally he summoned the courage to break it, hoping that it might contain gold. Out tumbled, not gold, but twelve books bound in gazelle leather. These books would prove one of the most important archaeological finds of the twentieth century. And one of the reasons for their importance is the valuable evidence they provide for the existence of the sayings collection known as Q. These manuscripts, now known as the Nag Hammadi Library, contained a complete manuscript of the Gospel of Thomas. A fragment of this gospel, written in Greek, had been found earlier at Oxyrynchos in Egypt. But it was only a fragment. The text found at Nag Hammadi, although complete, was written in Coptic, which was the form of the Egyptian language in use during later Roman imperial times. On the basis of this text, however, scholars were able to reconstruct the Gospel of Thomas in Greek, the original language of its composition. By this means, they were able to compare its contents with those of writings found in the New Testament. The Gospel of Thomas is very different from the gospels that have become part of the New Testament. It contains no narrative material, nor is there any story of the birth, the life, or the death of Jesus. It consists only of sayings, 114 in all, each preceded by the phrase, 'And Jesus said.' The collected sayings of the Gospel of Thomas are designated by its author as 'the secret sayings which the living Jesus spoke.' Some of the sayings from the Gospel of Thomas are very much like those found in the gospels of Matthew and Luke, for example:'Jesus said, 'Come to me, for my yoke is easy and my mastery is gentle, and you will find repose.'' (#90) But others are puzzling: 'Jesus said, 'Become passers by.'' (#42). According to this author, salvation is achieved in the recognition of one's origin (the light) and one's destiny (the repose). And in order to return to his or her origin, the disciplemust separate from the world by 'stripping off' the garment of flesh and 'passing by' corruptible human existence. For New Testament scholars, one of the most interesting things about this gospel is that its author (who calls himself Didymos Judas Thomas) appears to have used sayings from the same collection used by Matthew and Luke. But for this author and his community, the meaning of these sayings was clearly very different. The Gospel of Thomas, therefore, provided exciting new evidence for the existence of an earlier collection of sayings used by a variety of Christian communities. In 1989, a team of researchers led by James M. Robinson of the Institute for Antiquity and Christianity in Claremont, CA, began a most unlikely task: the 'reconstruction' of the Gospel of Q. Robinson and his team are accomplishing this by a highly detailed literary analysis of Matthew, Luke, and Thomas. Their painstaking work goes 'verse by verse, word by word, case ending by case ending.' After nearly ten years of work, the results of their efforts are soon to be published as the Critical Edition of Q. The 'recovery' of the Q gospel has stimulated a debate about the nature early Christian communities, and by extension, the origins of Christianity itself. One scholar, Burton Mack, has advanced a radical thesis: that at least some Christian communities did not see Jesus as a Messiah; they saw him as a teacher of wisdom, a man who tried to teach others how to live. For them, Jesus was not divine, but fully human. These first followers of Jesus differed from other Christians whose ritual and practice was centered on the death and the resurrection of Jesus. Their did not emerge as the 'winners' of history; perhaps because the maintaining the faith required the existence of a story that included not only the life of Jesus but also his Passion. Read more on the Q in this Atlantic Monthly article The Search for a No-Frills Jesus. home . jesus' many faces . jesus' world . storytellers . first christians . why did christianity succeed? maps, archaeology & sources . discussion New Content Copyright © 1998 PBS and WGBH/FRONTLINE

Subject: Interesting stuff. [nt] From: Neville To: Sulla Date Posted: Tues, Jul 02, 2002 at 09:07:31 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Sulla/About gospels... From: Peter R. To: Sulla Date Posted: Tues, Jul 02, 2002 at 01:39:57 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks for your long reply. In that case, what do you make of the section I quoted from the Gospel of Thomas suggesting this may have represented some Knowledge-like initiation? I take an interest in religious history, but I'm an amateur at it, whereas Neville and rgj seem better informed. It's an intriguing point, and I'm quite happy to learn from others.

Subject: Re: Sulla/About gospels... From: Sulla To: Peter R. Date Posted: Wed, Jul 03, 2002 at 00:55:05 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Peter, you are going to excuse my English, I have no one to correct it now. I think M is a Master of Nothing. I am one of those who throw the baby with the water and for me is OK, I can't help it, I think it is a natural reaction and I don't feel guilty, even thought it's painful, I rather be honest and not pretend that I believe in something that each time its more difficult to believe for me. Jesus could be my salvation, because while I was believing in M I never forgot him, in my moments of clarity I recognize him in him and wished for that day I could live in that state of consciousness permanently. That was my hope, to reach that state of clarity, because when I found M I was looking for the other one. Months ago reading EPO I realized that they were not the same thing, that the Jesus I knew didn't match the M I was starting to really know. Then I found this stuff about the gospels, and now I realize that while I may never know who Jesus really was, at least I feel safe knowing who M really is.

Subject: Gospel stuff From: Mickey the Pharisee To: Peter R. Date Posted: Tues, Jul 02, 2002 at 13:21:33 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'm pretty clear that Jesus did not teach 'this knowledge' or any kind of meditation. Whether one sees Jesus as an itinerent apocalyptic preacher, a prophet in the tradition of Elijah and Elisha, a traveling healer, or as a Messiah, Jesus did not teach people to squeeze their eyeballs, stick their fingers in their ears, hyperventilate or drink snot. Jesus taught the evangelon, or good news, of forgiveness of sins and the coming of the Reign of God (or Kingdom of God, or Kingdom of Heaven), a world in which there is no illness or poverty or racism or all those things which make life a 'vale of tears.' Most scriptures of most religions use the word 'light' and it isn't difficult to find the word music, either. This does not mean that they teach the techniques that mahatma or DVD taught you in that dark room. You could go through People magazine and find the words light, music, word, and nectar, too, but I don't think that makes it a spiritual track. I think that M and Yogananda and other gurus put Jesus in their pantheon in order to give credibility to their cults in the West, but that doesn't make it so. The Gnostics used the imagery of light in their scriptures, but that does not mean they taught the techniques we were told were the Knowldege of God. Those who are interested in scholarly works on the canonical gospels might find 'The Five Gospels: The Search for the Authentic Words of Jesus' by the Jesus Seminar very interesting. Also, works by Marcus J. Borg, N.T. Wright, Raymond Brown, William Countryman, Dominic Crossan, and Robert Funk are very good. The magazine Bible Review, published by the Biblical Archeological Society publishes articles on the latest research. If you are interested in information on the 34 different canonical and non-canonical gospels, email me at mgdbach@hotmail.com and I will email you an article from the Bible Review.

Subject: Re: It was both him and us From: rgj To: Peter R. Date Posted: Sun, Jun 30, 2002 at 04:44:29 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Peter R wrote: --- - Jesus himself gave K, or a form of this: For when they had seen him and had heard him, he granted them to taste him and to smell him and to touch the beloved Son........... Again, speaking new things, still speaking about what is in the heart of the Father, he brought forth the flawless word. (The Gospel of Thomas). --- -- This is selective literalism, a tendency which fundamentalist Christians in particular are prone to. The Gospel of Thomas is regarded as apocryphal, and Xians don't believe that Jesus was giving out techniques of meditation. In my premie days, I confronted a Christian friend withe the Biblical assertion that 'the truth is within'. To which she responded that the correct interpretation was that the truth was within ... reach. The idea that all the originators of the great religions gave K, is I think just a way of providing this modern cult with an impressive pedigree. Words like: light, love, knowledge, truth, are so ambiguous that you could probably make an argument that any philosopher that touched on them was a Master, giving out divine K. Premies used to say that Shakespeare and Socrates were, if not masters, at least God-realized. There are some intriguing arguments that Jesus never existed: 1 . There is no reliable historical corroboration of Jesus' life, or events such as Herrod having 1st-borns killed. 2. Even Christian scholars who believe in the existence of a historical Jesus accept that virtually nothing for sure is known about him. (Except that He was wrong: the world didn't come to an end). 3. The oldest Christian scriptures are the Epistles and Revelations, followed, a hundred or so years later by the 4 Gospels and Acts. (Its unclear whether Acts came before or after the Gospels). 4. The Epistles never talk about the practicalities of Jesus' life (carpenter, teacher, miracle-worker, K-giver, casting out the money lenders from the temple, tried and executed). This is what some new testament scholars call The Silence. Instead, the Christ of the Epistles is more akin to Greek ideas of a saviour spirit than a Judaic king. The original Christian scriptures are all Greek. 5. The idea that a human could be at one with God is sacrilegious to Judaism. 6. The Epistles were sent to already well-established communities throughout the empire by the apostles supposedly within living memory of Jesus. 7. The new testament - at least in translation - has a poetic, literary quality. The texture of the stories of Jesus are identical with that of the parables he tells. It's also full of Midrash - the telling of supposedly real events in sufficiently vague language that they can be interpreted as being consistent with earlier prophecies. This latter, like our friend Peter R's assertions above, is essentially an appeal to the authority of the past: understandable for simple people in pre-scientific times; more suspicious now. Instead, some have argued that Christianity is Greek in original, an offshoot of mid-Platonism, based on a belief in a savior-spirit that comes between man and god in a spiritual realm, and through self-sacrifice enables man to be accepted by god. These ideas were transmitted throughout the Roman empire either directly by believers or indirectly by sophists or other wandering philosophers. There would have been groups of such people in Rome, Alexandria and perhaps even Jerusalem. Perhaps as a way of unifying such a sprawling movement, perhaps in response to cultic tendencies among some Xians to worship figures like John the Baptist (for whom there is some historical evidence, though none for the stories in the Bible), folkloric tales collected in documents such as the putative Q and perhaps the many apocryphal writings, together with myths, superstitions and Jewish prophecies, were woven together into a narrative either by Mark or people he had access to. The other 3 evangelists used Mark to a greater or lesser degree. On the other hand, maybe Plato was a perfect master, too. rgj

Subject: Re: It was both him and us From: Mickey the Pharisee To: rgj Date Posted: Tues, Jul 02, 2002 at 17:47:53 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Actually, the Revelation of St. John is probably one of the later books in the NT. The Acts of the Apostles was written soon after the gospel of Luke; they are two volumes of one work. The Epistles of St. Paul are the earliest works, but the Johaninne works are later than the synoptic gospels. The epistles attributed to Peter and James are post-gospel. So, first Paul's stuff, then then Mark, Matthew, Luke-Acts, then Peter and James' stuff (although they could be after the Johaninne stuff), then, lastly, the Johaninne stuff (Gospel of John, Johaninne epistles, and Revelation).

Subject: Maturing Gracefully From: Bolly To: All Date Posted: Sun, Jun 30, 2002 at 02:10:22 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The following was inspired by some poster calling another 'a dried up old hag'. Thought I'd post while I still have unfettered acces to this machine. Silken tressesfloating across the pillow have detached themselves formed cobwebs clinging to the corners under my bed where the dust of dreams is gathered With a stiff brush the hair once rose a gleaming cloud protecting my head containing the sharp thoughts therin A complexion from miss pears has faded miss ugli fruit brought character brilo pads accentuate cross hatching of ideas writ large around eyes and mouth creeping across the forehead I swear I never heard from her this creased and crinkled grey framed creature I glided through life elated, passionate with limitless energy did not look back when she hokked my spring loaded knees with her knarled umbrella Slower now I walk with her she is both wise and interesting Dedicated to all those who are maturing gracefully Love Bolly

Subject: Re: Maturing Gracefully From: Robyn To: Bolly Date Posted: Tues, Jul 02, 2002 at 20:57:17 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dear Bolly, Beautiful poem, thank you. As with all things I guess, there are some wonderful things about maturing and some things that about it that suck. But you said it so much better. :) Love, Robyn

Subject: Re: Maturing Gracefully From: Sigmund Freud To: Bolly Date Posted: Mon, Jul 01, 2002 at 05:55:48 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Bolly, you sound a really beautiful person. Also, very funny from other posts. Try maturing a bit disgracefully too - a bottle of schnapps a day, plus the odd younger lover or two.

Subject: Re: Maturing Gracefully From: Bolly To: Sigmund Freud Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 04, 2002 at 06:56:10 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Siggy How old are you, the young ones are so frisky it can wear me out. Love Bolly

Subject: Breathless anticipation, Bolly From: Siggy To: Bolly Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 04, 2002 at 10:32:02 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi, Bolly, Been reading your stuff for the last couple of weeks, and decided you're really cool - very wise, and extremely funny. Tell me a bit more about yourself, and we may perhaps meet. Best wishes, Siggy

Subject: Re: Maturing Gracefully From: Scott T. To: Sigmund Freud Date Posted: Tues, Jul 02, 2002 at 08:49:55 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Try maturing a bit disgracefully too - a bottle of schnapps a day, plus the odd younger lover or two. Not too odd though. Remember Homuth's Rule: 'Never sleep with anyone crazier than yourself.' I don't mind maturing. It's growing old that sucks. --Scott

Subject: Re: Maturing Gracefully From: AV To: Scott T. Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 04, 2002 at 14:23:42 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: you're only as old as the woman you feel

Subject: Re: Maturing Gracefully From: Livia To: Bolly Date Posted: Mon, Jul 01, 2002 at 04:19:45 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Bolly that's a beautiful poem, extremely well written and very moving too. Lots of love, Livia XX

Subject: who's gonna be the first in? From: gerry To: All Date Posted: Sat, Jun 29, 2002 at 17:01:20 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Announcing.... Forum Eight

Subject: How do I sign up? [nt] From: Cynthia To: gerry Date Posted: Sun, Jun 30, 2002 at 06:17:01 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: How do I sign up? From: gerry To: Cynthia Date Posted: Sun, Jun 30, 2002 at 07:31:33 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Forum Eight www.anyboard.net/soc/religion/maharaji/index.html

Subject: what the hell for????? From: janet To: gerry Date Posted: Sun, Jun 30, 2002 at 01:21:40 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: what is this being started for? is f7 dying? are we trying to create a still better version of the forum? this the previously stipulated space where so called spiritual ex's can speak without having to watch for shark attacks? is this the hybrid between the secrecy and exclusivity of RE and the public brawling of f7? did i miss some vital vote on the creation of yet another try at a forum that meets everyone's conditions? am I gonna be rejected from this one just like i was from RE when I knocked on that door?am I gonna be held up for ridicule like i was on f7? are we gonna put JIm on probation at this one and put him thru obedience school? who's the FA at f8? hey==f8==fate. ooooo wweeeee wooooo...

Subject: Re: what the hell for????? From: gerry To: janet Date Posted: Sun, Jun 30, 2002 at 06:22:32 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I gonna be held up for ridicule like i was on f7? probably :)

Subject: Hey Janet... From: gerry To: gerry Date Posted: Sun, Jun 30, 2002 at 08:25:26 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Did you know there's a 'disallow replies' function on the new board?

Subject: If there were a From: Sir Dave To: gerry Date Posted: Sun, Jun 30, 2002 at 08:57:39 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: disallow replies from specified people - that would be the ticket.

Subject: Here's something as good From: gerry To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Sun, Jun 30, 2002 at 09:11:48 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dave, a registered user can set up his/her profile to ignore posts from certain posters. I haven't tested it yet, but I'm sure it works. This means posts from 'Nasty Nate' or whomever you've placed in your 'ignore' file, would not show up on 'your' version of F8.

Subject: Jesus you pull these stunts:::: From: PatD To: gerry Date Posted: Sat, Jun 29, 2002 at 18:17:38 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: :::at2 in the morning: later:

Subject: Walks on water From: gerry To: PatD Date Posted: Sat, Jun 29, 2002 at 18:39:21 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Well, it is cool software and I've put many hours into it and I don't know all the ins and outs and there's room for a lot of improvement. So if anyone want to be part of the 'beta version' please do so. I'd like to switch the conversation over there as soon as practical and I'd like everyone to have the time they need to get familiar with the format and the 'possibilites.'

Subject: It won't let me log in From: Sir Dave To: gerry Date Posted: Sun, Jun 30, 2002 at 02:43:17 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Everytime I try to it just redirects to an error page.

Subject: Re: It won't let me log in From: Vicki To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Sun, Jun 30, 2002 at 04:16:23 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: So is it a joke?

Subject: Closing of Maharaji's Ashrams -- 1983 From: Divine Times Reporter To: All Date Posted: Sat, Jun 29, 2002 at 15:34:21 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Following is an interview with a long-term ashram premie about the way in which the ashrams were closed in the USA in 1983. More demonstration of what an uncarring asshole Maharaji is: ...what happened in the closing of your ashram? Specifically, can you tell us, how you were first told the ashram was closing and what the explanation was? Where I lived, first there was a loosening of the ashram rules. Premies established their own bank accounts, and - Oh my God! - men and women actually lived in the same house. If premies wanted to leave the ashram, that was suddenly considered ok, in fact, it was now encouraged, whereas before you would go to the equivalent of Hell. There was some spin put on the whole thing, but I don't remember the details, it was all bewildering. There was also an ashram 'purge' during which a large number of ashram premies were now pressured - not just encouraged - to move out, and individual ashrams were closed. 'Purge' was actually a word that was used. The supposed idea was that the ashram was being 'cleaned up', purged of ashram premies deemed inferior, leaving only the so-called elite. I was kicked out of one ashram, I went to live at another, then that one was told to close. I think there was a deadline given. I don't remember being told during this period that 'the ashram' as an institution was going to be shut down completely. One thing I was told - by an 'ordinary' ashram premie - was that 'Maharaji' wanted us to be 'more normal'. That was about it. There was no mention of the reasons that Dettmers wrote about. It seems like a 'blame (and insult) the victim' strategy was taken. The 'more normal' wording implied that ashram premies were abnormal. Ok, we were, but why? It wasn't my idea to move into an ashram. Rawat said later that it was 'an experiment that didn't work' and 'mistakes were made'. Saying that it was 'an experiment' suggests that he didn't know what the outcome would be, which doesn't fit with his coy (and not so coy) implications of being all-knowing, nor with his claims of being 'the Master'. Who set up the failed experiment? He did. He told people to move in. He wrote the ashram manual. He was the head of the whole thing. What 'didn't work' meant was never described, nor was 'mistakes were made'. Maybe one thing he meant was that the ashrams weren't giving him enough money. There did seem to be a trend towards giving less money to DLM and Rawat, maybe that pissed him off. The whole affair was very confusing and painful. First I was pressured into the ashram, then kicked out. Why do I say I was pressured to move in? Because Rawat said that he wanted all single premies to move in the ashram, and whatever he wanted was perceived as pressure. He was making it out like, if you want to 'realize Knowledge', you move in the ashram. I perceived him as the authority figure, the expert, so I moved in. There's a book called 'You're Smarter Than They Make You Feel' that describes how 'experts' intimidate us. I had very mixed feelings about the closing, I was both relieved and deeply hurt. When I heard that the 'elite' ashram was closed, instead of blaming Rawat, I thought, 'It serves them right.' Rawat is very slick at casting the blame on others. Who coordinated the closing of the ashram -- dividing up the debt, etc.? It didn't seem coordinated. Where I was, the debt just ended up being paid by the persons who officially owed the debt.[On their credit card, or the debt was in their name, even though the debt was taken out to support the ashram or Maharaji personally, like for his plane. Did you get anything directly from Maharaji, like a letter, a video, or was there ever an ashram meeting in which Maharaji disclosed this? I don't remember any letter or video or meeting like that, nor do I remember being told that it was 'Maharaji' himself who explicitly ordered the ashram closed. There was no statement made like 'forget about those vows', no explicit release from the vows, just that he wanted us to be 'more normal'. It was more implied than actually stated, whereas before the vows were explicit. That was confusing for people used to being told what to do. I think the closing was made out to be, well, 'Maharaji' wants us to be 'more normal', so we should close the ashrams, it's us premies that are closing the ashrams, not him. It seemed like it was made out to be our fault that the ashram didn't 'work', that we were - in response to his gentle guidance - admitting our failure. Rawat likes to pretend at times that he's so laissez-faire, that way, he doesn't have to take the blame. When I was in the ashram, there was a lot of talk about having the ashram 'ready' for a visit by him. Premies would dream about him visiting their ashram. It never happened, even when he was in town. I think it served him well for the premies to keep dreaming. He acted like we were not worthy of him. I can't imagine the ashrams had much in the way of assets. Most of the ashrams were rentals, and maybe there was some furniture and a few decrepit cars, but I can't imagine there was much else. That was about it, not all the cars were decrepit, but I think they were all used economy cars. Still, for an ashram premie, that seemed like a lot.

Subject: Closing of Maharaji's Ashrams -- 1983 (About the Above) From: Joe To: Divine Times Reporter Date Posted: Mon, Jul 01, 2002 at 09:15:27 (PDT) Email Address: kevjo@mindspring.com Message: Hi guys, The above interview was from a Forum exchange a couple of years ago. Those questions came from me, and the person responding used to post quite often (and very thoughtfully) under the name 'G.' 'G' was a fellow long-time ashram premie from one of the ashrams I lived in. The interchange is already in the 'best of forum' index on the EPO website. Just to add a couple of things to what G said. I also recall that the general chronology was as follows: 1. Up until at least 1980, but especially from 1977-1980, Maharaji made it very clear both in ashram meetings and to the initiators that every available student (premie) of his was supposed to surrender completely to him by living in his ashrams. Many community premies were pressured to give up all worldly pursuits and move in, and many did. I have always thought that part of the motivation for this was the insatiable desire Maharaji had for money (which the ashrams provided to him), and because he needed slave labor for his 'projects,' the most notorious of which around this time was the Boeing 707 plane project. Maharaji desired that palacial plane like it satisifed some kind of pathological need. Then, in a fashion reflecting the spoiled child he actually is, soon after the millions were spent and many premie lives disrupted and damaged, he got bored with the plane and wanted a different one. 2. Around early 1981, at least in the States, the 'ashram purge' happened. It was pretty brutal in my recollection. There was no indication that the ashram was anything other than the centerpiece of devotion to Maharaji, just that you had to be REALLY dedicated to be there. As with anything else in the Maharaji Cult world, it was the most dedicated premies who took the brunt of this abuse. Like Patrick and others said, if you had money, if you had connections, if you were a 'famous premie,' or if you just had the hubris to fend for yourself, you were not purged. 3. Sometime later, like by about the middle of 1982, apparently because not enough of the riff-raff moved out (not surprising, considering that Maharaji had scared us shitless about doing so in numerous of his ashram meeting diatribes), the ashram caste system was established whereby there were 'elite' ashrams and 'other' ashrams. I recall in San Francisco, Sally Reeder organized this, and a new ashram was set up and only the 'elite' (also in this case the most dysfunctional) premies were invited to live there. (I was not invited being considered too 'worldly.') This ashram was supposed to be, laughingly, for 'propogation.' That ashram fell apart in a few months and no aspriants later, I was told, because the premies who lived there fought with each other like dogs and it became quite unbearable, despite Sally Reeder's unearthly sweetness. (At the time, I and the other 'unworthly' brothers in the 'other' ashram had a good laugh about that.) 3. Then began the 'loosening' I would say towards the end of 1982. I do recall I gave up housefather duties and we started handling our own money. I was on my way out by this time, and I don't recall much about it. David Smith introduced this, and despite the fact that the guy had serious mental problems, he did seem to have at least some awareness that he was now encouraging people to move out of the ashram and to 'be more normal' (as IF he would have a clue about that), in direct contradiction to his Nazi-like ashram inquisition about a year earlier. One wonders if Mr. David Smith ever thinks about that these days, and whether the discussions of his abysmal behavior towards ashram premies that have been made public here have made it back to him. But most ashram premies did not move out despite the cult leadership (but NOT Maharaji) encouraging people to do so. Why? Well, because of Maharaji. Most of us recalled that in 1976 the cult leadership, including people like Barbara Kolodney and others who were now Initiators, encouraged people to move out, and then in 1977 Maharaji said it was all MIND and the DLM leadership was confused by doing too much thinking. So, deja vu, right? Because Maharaji failed to take any responsibility for this, people were even more conflicted and confused, just like G said. 4. I left the ashram and the cult in March 1983, with my clothes and nothing else, never to return. Sometime after that (like about 6 months later), the ashrams were closed, but I wasn't actually around for that, and so that's why I asked G those questions. We do know that there was no preparation, no counseling, no explanation, and Maharaji stuck the ashram premies with the debts. It's clear that Maharaji and many of the premies, especially the former ashram premies who are still in the cult, and many who aren't, have selective amnesia about this period because it is particularly painful and difficult to explain. Erika Andersen tried to do so, but then she split, taking her ridiculous article on this subject with her, as soon as people began countering her with actual facts. Better just to repress it, right? And Glen Whittaker, in one of his more ignorant and clueless comments in that memo that John MacGregor posted, acknowledged that former ashram premies are angry at Maharaji about the whole ashram episode, but that it wasn't Maharaji's fault, it was due to those persons 'lack of understanding' (of WHAT, exactly, Glen doesn't say.) Gee, thanks for that Glen. I could also tell from his less than truthful performance in the "Passages" video, that Glen has put on a few pounds and seems to never have gotten around to getting that underbite fixed. But he has evolved to the point where he now LOVES Maharaji, a blissful state which eluded him for many years, or so he says. He has acheived this glorious state of affairs only after overcoming his extremely shameful embarrassment about "loving" Maharaji which was due to the fact that he [Glen} is "a man" and Maharaji is "a man." [The very IDEA!@!!! YEch!] Glen has come a long, long way to overcome this serious problem and get on with falling in love with Maharaji, for which all of us are grateful, and deeply inspired that someday we might acheive that same state of bliss.

Subject: Glen... From: The Falcon To: Joe Date Posted: Mon, Jul 01, 2002 at 15:51:22 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: is currently under sedation with whiskey-please do not bother him.

Subject: WHERE IS THIS INTERVIEW FROM?? From: Francesca To: Divine Times Reporter Date Posted: Sun, Jun 30, 2002 at 14:10:24 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Any info would be much appreciated, such as publication (magazine or newspaper, website) and date of publication, if it is a mag or newspaper. Thanks for any info. Francesca

Subject: another similar account From: friendly anon To: Francesca Date Posted: Tues, Jul 02, 2002 at 07:28:15 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: To all, excuse my jumping in but it's interesting to hear the different variations of a similar story for the ashram closings. (good question from whence the interview came). As another previsou ashram resident, here's what happened in our ashram as well. The big purge first arrived in our neck of the woods in june 1982 with two instructors who worked closely with m, announcing m's wishes to ‘streamline the ashrams'. It was presented as a ‘request' that any premies who are thinking of leaving, wanting to pursue affairs, or have any doubts about their commitment to m's work (110% was given as the acceptable amount) should leave the ashram. No reasons were given, and in true cult form, no questions were asked as well. The exercise given was to look within ourselves and assess our own commitment levels, and anyone acknowledging any doubts as to the extent or purity of their devotion/commitment were encouraged to leave. At that point, about one-third including yours truly gladly left. I pitied the ones who remained, who were willing to repress/disacknowledge any doubts and remain an ashram servant despite them, tightening their resolve on their subtly-forced devotion. I had suffered enough because of that kind of self pride and idiotic determination to serve. It was a wonderful relief to free myself. For that different drum reason I felt more of a success at joining normal society! This was the same era (early 80's) that the push to present ourselves as more normal members of society also appeared, although I can't remember exactly first when, in various service coordination meetings. An early revisionist approach it was as we were conditioned that it's no longer kosher to use hindi terms like satsang or darshan, or sing songs like 'the lotu has come to us this day'. The reason given (or in more correct cult terms, ‘understood') was this was in order to make m's message more palatable and relatable to modern western society, to simplify the message and present it just as a beautiful experience without the religious trappings. (but doesn't that just make it a bit of a wolf in sheep's clothing!) Premies still thought of you know who as you know what and the guru worship and flow of monetary donations kept rollin'. still to this day -- the song remains the same. (actually in lesser amounts due to the dwindling number of active premies). Then in december of 1982, all remaining ashram residents (AND previous residents who had left earlier that year) were finally made aware that the ashrams will all be closing for good, and the reason was their financial infeasibility. Again, in true cultlike form, no further explanations were given. and no questions were asked as it was already known that our two ashrams were both debt-laden. Even though the ‘civil silent blame' placed the culprit on big spending by ashram financial officers*, it was autocratically decided (again in true cultlike form) to simply divide the debt equally amongst all current and previous ashram members ($2000 each in our case), despite wide variances in individual income and despite the fact that a third had already left the ashram half a year earlier. A handful of fellow residents were very hurt and silently slipped off the knowledge scene altogether. Some of us felt a bit burnt, but glad to move on with our own independent lives, while still practising. But it's really amazing how, for the most part, lack of information as to what had really been going down, the ultimate reasons behind it, and unquestioning trust, allowed the absurdity, dysfunction and unfairness of all this to fly right over so many heads. and for SO long thanks epo (even though you're a bit late, better late than never) *ps: no doubt the biggest part of that spending was donations to you know who

Subject: Franny, see my post, above (nt). From: Joe To: Francesca Date Posted: Mon, Jul 01, 2002 at 16:20:12 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: nt

Subject: This was quite simply evil behaviour. From: Pat W To: Divine Times Reporter Date Posted: Sun, Jun 30, 2002 at 05:13:07 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I just wanted to say that my memory of the closing of the ashrams at that time is EXACTLY the same. I don't know who wrote this but this is indeed a very accurate account of what happened. I was starting to doubt my own memory under the pressure of the current revisionists. So thanks - whoever you are. I was a victim of the Great Ashram Purge too. I believe Dick Cooper was the UK co-ordinator, in charge at the time , and I recall being sent to Newcastle ashram (from London) where I was sort of being tested to see if I was one of the 'Elite'. Newcastle ashram was considered a fairly tough regime where no doubt I was supposed to 'crack' under the watchful eye of 'Big Frank'. I obviously failed the test because I was given the boot after some months there. The whole ashram system was riddled with hypocrisy and questionable ethics. It was hard work crediting Maharaji (who one believed was a virtuous person) with being the designer and orchestrator of this mess. In fact by then he was singularly quiet and lacking in input on the ashrams - certainly not the screeching dictator who had a few years earlier been urging us to join and who was advertising the place as being His Shelter and the thing he cared about most. What bullshit that was. His lack of input indicated that he wanted to quietly back out of his responsibilities about the ashram. By that late stage I think the rules had been bent (relaxed) by almost everyone. Certainly the co-ordinators (Frank and Dick Cooper included) pampered themselves in a way that may not have been considered fair earlier on. I personally was very into the idea of becoming more 'normal' and responsible since I was under no doubt by then that the strict rules and 'chain of command' was a travesty of any kind of healthy spiritual environment that we once had aspired to. I also deemed that it was not helpful to serving Maharaji to be the uptight, loser type breed of ashram premie I saw around me. I had started to get work again as a session musician which I had before been encouraged to abandon because it was considered to be inappropriate to get a job which you liked as you'd be 'attached' to it. So my independant thinking got me booted out I guess. I just figured that I'd rather think for myself and do my best at earning money than be on the dole in Newcastle. At the time I assumed Maharaji knew what he was doing and I was quite shocked when I heard that he had admitted that it had been a 'mistake' and an 'experiment'. I felt pretty depressed that the best years of my life had been sacrificed to a failed experiment. When I later learned how remote Maharaji was from actually having any concern for us and how he actually was really completely preoccupied with his own extravagant and rich life I was appalled. It still hurts to think I was duped into thinking I was surrendering to his care and love. In reality there was none there. He was not the loving Lord I'd imagined. From then on (after I had been chucked out) I basically didn't listen to premies ideas about what I should do - and started keeping the money I earned so as to build some kind of life for myself. I was 25or 26 at the time. Fortunately my mother took me back in (my father had died) and I had a roof over my head. But basically I had to start from scratch as I'm sure we all pretty much did. Maharaji never addressed the subject as he rightly should have done. I absolutely concur that he initially was totally responsible for giving out the message that all single premies should move into the ashram. This was around 1977-8 I think. He should have held a meeting for all those people who had given their lives to him - and offered them explanation and apology. That is what he should have done. But he didn't. Instead he sought to shun responsibility and to brush the matter under the carpet. Who set up the failed experiment? He did. He told people to move in. He wrote the ashram manual. He was the head of the whole thing. Exactly. That was the most honest thing he let slip ( for this comment of his about it being 'a failed experiment' was never official as far as I know - it was more of a famous rumour). The fact that he has never made any public reference to this 'failed experiment' confirms that he is embarrassed to be seen as someone who makes mistakes. He wants to maintain his 'trustworthiness' after all. His lack of concern for the ashrams - his abandonment of them really - was the single thing that alerted me to the horrific fact that he could not be trusted. He had once established a team of Instructors- championed by people like David Smith - who travelled around the world laying on his demands in the most intense way imaginable, that we should surrender our lives in the Ashram. I just cannot believe that now people have so widely blotted the memory of this period of insanity out of their lives- or don't want to look at it - perhaps preferring the 'reformed' Maharaji. He might be reformed but he has not paid for his mistakes. He needs to be made to account for his past evils somehow. One other thing I wanted to comment on about ashram life - which ties up with Mike Finches open letter to M - is the fact that there was a contradiction in the ashram generally, about being humbly surrendered to doing whatever you were told and on the other hand, maniacally trying to claw your way into any service which took you out of the humdrum provincial ashram rota, and closer to Maharaji himself. Ashram premies were riddled with ambitions in this area. I held to my principles on this matter and assumed that whatever I was told to do - however menial- was as graceful a gift from Maharaji (God) that I could get. So I was appalled to observe the lengths that most ashram premies went to, to scrabble their way to do 'better' more direct service. That was where a lot of manipulation, back-biting and plain greedy selfish behaviour was manifest. It was ugly. Devotees jostling and treading on each other without concern and in a most hypocritical manner was apparently acceptable to Maharaji. He almost played on this and teased people about it - giving them Instructor forms to fill in etc. I tried to avoid being so 'career' oriented - I guess I still had my old Christian morals, and consequently sunk to the bottom of the desperate writhing heap. So I learned from this that, far from people's rise to prominence or favour being a 'blessing', it was quite clearly due to their own ambitious efforts most of the time. This took the form of pathetic gopi-like girls writing endless tear-stained letters - filling in applications to be instructors - and such-like. You know, Maharaji made us fawn and fight for these 'services'. I never did though. Later on, ironically, when I started to get successes as a musician through my own considerable efforts and not through 'Grace' etc. I was 'noticed' by Maharaji's organisation as being of some use - and actually became quite involved in the Elan Vital productions to the degree that I got to meet Maharaji and all the stuff that being a humble devotee had never before resulted in! I liken the Ashram situation to M being like a Master of a pack of dogs who he kept penned up where their natural insincts to run wild and free were curtailed. So here are these dogs who basically are so desperate to get out and have a good time (like nature intended) and yet whose 'training' means that the only good time they can anticipate is when their 'Master' singles them out one day for the hunt or whatever. And what do they do mainly in their pen? Why, jostle for favour of course - and that can get pretty ugly. So Maharaji's attempt to control us in the ashram in the way he did was actually a really wicked thing. He worked extremely actively to coerce us into that situation (NB. in all the ashram meeetings / Instructors conveying his Agya about this far and wide) and yet when we were all there, he played no real active part - showed little care for the suffering of inmates and abandoned us to this fate until it suited HIM to distance himself and relinquish responsibility for it all - ie when his naive ideas about it all had, quite predictably, gone wrong. He had allowed the ambitious ones who fawned the most to rise to prominence and generally succeed in their ambitions to the cost of the more humble to whom such cringing hypocritical ambition was anathema. This is not the behaviour of someone with any real care or character - let alone a Master of Perfection. Let's face it - he didn't know what was going on and he didn't care. His behaviour was simply evil. He did an evil thing to put people through this stuff with such callous disregard. Shame on people who don't learn from this or who condone his behaviour.

Subject: Pat W, did you sign a contract? From: Vicki To: Pat W Date Posted: Mon, Jul 01, 2002 at 00:45:37 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Many ex ashram ex premies talk of signing a contract. I personally never had to, but then our ashram was not quite sanctified before it disbanded. So this has me wondering, who was breaking the contract? Well, obviously Maharaji was. But if he pulled the typical corporate ploy of not directly commenting on it, then he couldn't be sued if ashram residents left on their own accord. Of course that 'accord' was the heavy hand of those bullies he let loose to 'pursuade' people to leave, under the guise of agya. That's why, imo, he never will comment on it. Can you imagine the litigation it could open up in places where there in no statute of limitations on abuse?

Subject: Re: This was quite simply evil behaviour. From: PatD To: Pat W Date Posted: Sun, Jun 30, 2002 at 13:31:23 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yes, & the division between the ashram premies & the rest is also proof of his total lack of any sort of mastership. One in the spirit,what a joke.I always had a big problem with being regarded a 2nd class premie(maybe it was more in my mind than in other's)because I never could take that step. The people he sucked up,used,& spat out have been airbrushed out of history.Those he spurned in those days are the ones now sitting at his feet. It stinks out loud.

Subject: It wasn't in your mind, Pat D From: Vicki To: PatD Date Posted: Mon, Jul 01, 2002 at 00:36:10 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You are absolutely correct. I was hounded constantly to join the ashram. Relentlessly. If one wasn't in the ashram, then one really wasn't considered of worth. I remember a time in Oakland that some moms started a 'Mother's Ashram' and an initiator said to us 'What a joke.' The pressure was unbearable.

Subject: Re: This was quite simply evil behaviour. From: The Falcon To: Pat W Date Posted: Sun, Jun 30, 2002 at 11:17:30 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Great post, Patrick, not my experience but it does confirm that of many. As an aside, while you were enduring this travail Dick Cooper (before he dicks you, as the joke was at the time)was out shagging anything wet and warm (ashram, non-ashram, married, you name it - sorry her)and left a trail of broken hearts to complement his tyranny. In mild mitigation, I never have understood that sexual suppression malarkey, just oozes out the sides.

Subject: Re: This was quite simply evil behaviour. From: Moll of Mole To: The Falcon Date Posted: Tues, Jul 02, 2002 at 01:33:17 (PDT) Email Address: mollofmole@loveable.com Message: I notched up a few instructors and coordinators in my time and Dic was certainly one of them. He was a pretty down to earth kind of guy, just loved having a good time and could not see what all the fuss was in the spiritual side of things. He knew how to please a woman. Interesting thing is that if you talk to premies today about the ashram stuff they say that it was 20 years ago and things have changed. Which just is not true. My current boyfriend is a premie and went thru the whole training bullshit , if you had not been to one then you were not as good as the people that had. If you were promoted to a honcho you had to go to a training to understand the new knowledge, same old stuff but different rules. The training thing just fell apart because his guruness could not see that he was still the problem and blamed every one else. The new form of manipulation is the smartcard. If you have not got one of them then you do not get in. With that thing you know where someone went , how long for,etc. This will keep the guru happy for years controlling is flock and no one will get it. Sick really Moll of Mole

Subject: Jim Jones required ID Cards... From: Cynthia To: Moll of Mole Date Posted: Tues, Jul 02, 2002 at 12:33:35 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: This stepped up security is something very creepy. Jim Jones and The People's Temple required ID cards for their meetings which were not open to public. But that was just the tip of the iceberg of chaos.

Subject: I was so naive... From: Cynthia To: Pat W Date Posted: Sun, Jun 30, 2002 at 06:38:58 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: So I learned from this that, far from people's rise to prominence or favour being a 'blessing', it was quite clearly due to their own ambitious efforts most of the time. This took the form of pathetic gopi-like girls writing endless tear-stained letters - filling in applications to be instructors - and such-like. I never looked at myself as a gopi and even though I wanted to be physically close to maharaji, wrote to him every day (even prior to joining the ashram) I also felt as if I was completely out of control of where I would ever end up being. I don't recall back-biting about filling out applications, but I was also living in my own little world of maharaji in the ashram. And believe me, it was agya to fill out those applications for 'the (Deca) project.' I was quite naive about it all, with Lila abounding in the era of slave labor for the Lord. And make no mistake, most of the ashram premies worked hard in the cities and towns where we lived. I was a higher income earner so the Hartford ashram wasn't all that happy to see me go down to Miami based on the ashram finances--plus they had to come up with my flight money to be there in two days! To even be told as ashram premies that a 'purge' was going to happen is so demeaning. I was long gone by 1983. I got married in 1983. So I wasn't there to be 'purged.' It sounds like a high colonic or something. How dreadful and I agree, Pat, evil of Maharaji to not say word one to those who he hounded into going into those ashrams. The pressure wzs absolutely intense to give up everything in life just for him. What a coward that he couldn't even show his face. And another thing I always wondered about. How many ashrams did maharaji ever visit? What was his excuse for that? I know that by the late 70s the ashrams I lived in (except the Broadripple) were spotless, clean, very holy, and prepared for a visit from him. Plus, I wonder about all those premies whose divorces I helped to process so they would be free to provide free slave labor at DECA--it was done at DLM headquarters in Miami Beach. They must have felt like shit after splitting up relationships--Maharaji treating divorce like it was a dog license or something to be expunged from the life of a true Devotee--by his definition... only to be purged in 1983... Why didn't he go to these places to see his most comitted devotees by HIS definition? The purge...

Subject: Re: I was so naive... From: Vicki To: Cynthia Date Posted: Sun, Jun 30, 2002 at 19:20:16 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Ya know, Cynthia, it just came to me today whilst doing yard work, that perhaps Maharaji didn't visit the ashrams for a very simple reason; it would have blown his modus operendi. That stage personna was what we all knew and believed and it had us hooked. For him to show up as ordinary, well, how many of his income devotees would have seen through him and left taking their paychecks with them? Since PAM's have to be ex-rated, I can only summize that is the way he keeps people believing even when they see through him and his outrageous or just plain boring behaviour. Of course to cover his royal arse, he used to peddle the line about the greatest thing a devotee can have is longing for his/her perfect master. He cerainly kept up the longing by dangling the ashram visit carrot on a stick.

Subject: ****BEST OF***A KEEPER***** From: Cynthia To: Divine Times Reporter Date Posted: Sat, Jun 29, 2002 at 16:47:10 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I left the Gainesville ashram in January, 1981 and I was shocked when I heard that Maharaji closed down all the ashrams. I couldn't believe it. Even though I was not 'in touch' I knew what the commitment was and always wondered how premies felt as a result of Maharaji's renegging on his provision of a life shelter for those who wanted to dedicate their entire life to him. The reasons I left are trivial compared to those who were in those ashrams. Despite all of the screwing around folks did for the most part, most of the ashram premies I ever met had a deep devotion to Goomraji. What an ungrateful bastard Maharaji is! I paid off debt and made arrangement for my debts to be dissolved before I moved into an ashram. When I was called to DECA I gave away, and threw away most of my most precious belongings: family photos I gave to my sister, I threw away a huge volume of poetry that I'd written from age 16 up to age--gone, anything else I owned was given to the ashram and I left for Miami with a couple of suitcases and two boxes. That Maharaji never addressed the ashram premies directly is indicative of his indifference. What a coward. What a fraud. No note of thanks either. Maharaji is very deficient in the gratitude to others 'arena,' to steal one of his words. The above post is very important IMO because it probably describes the feelings of many ashram premies who were still around in 1983. I'm shaking my head. Shame on you, Maharaji, you louse.

Subject: Did Maharaji ever demand devotion? From: JHB To: All Date Posted: Sat, Jun 29, 2002 at 08:57:36 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Did the person of Prem Rawat ever demand devotion to himself, i.e. his physical form? Well, the answer is a resounding YES. I've been listening to the evidence, and when I get time I'll transcribe the relevant bits. The evidence I'm talking about is his public addresses during the Hans Jayanti festival in Kissimmee, Florida, November 1979. In the speeches I've listened to so far, he rambles a lot, but when he's not rambling, he says over and over again that we should give our devotion to Guru Maharaj Ji, and in case anyone thinks he wasn't talking about his physical form, he then makes it very clear by talking about how we are all waiting Guru Maharaj Ji to sit in the throne he was sitting in, and in other ways. He hardly mentions the experience of meditation. He also made it very clear that our love for Guru Maharaj Ji should take precedence over our love for our families. This festival lasted over a week, with 3 hours of speeches from Maharaji every day, with much of the rest of the time taken up with devotional speeches from senior followers in his organisation. Pretty standard mind control technique really. John

Subject: Absolutely not EVER!! From: Jethro To: JHB Date Posted: Tues, Jul 02, 2002 at 00:16:44 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: He never said this to teach us devotion(sorry for the repeat, but it seems appropriate here) 'To me the most ultimate experience in my life became Guru Maharaj Ji not even Knowledge, and when it became Guru Maharaj Ji it was so beautiful because I could attach myself to that experience, because Guru Maharaj Ji was in this world, Guru Maharaj Ji was there, and I remember every experience of standing in front of Him and experiencing a state of Mindlessness, where even you can call upon the mind as loud as you want but it is not there. A stage of where future does not matter, past doesn't matter and you're definitely not in the present. I think that stage is called ecstasy an incredible bliss.' Guru Maharaj Ji Hans Jayanti Festival, Orlando 6th Nobvember 1979(Tuesday-day) Reproduced in Affinity publication. Issue No:54 February 1980

Subject: Did he ever! From: cq To: JHB Date Posted: Mon, Jul 01, 2002 at 13:00:18 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: John, if you want a hand with the transcription, just email me.

Subject: Re: Did Maharaji ever demand devotion? From: AV To: JHB Date Posted: Sat, Jun 29, 2002 at 09:32:03 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: was it not the case that M offered the 'gift of devotion' at this time; like it was some big turning point, the upshot being that devotion wasn't something we were even capable of ourselves, unless M offered us that opportunity. Rather like when satsang stopped and M said that it was his gift, we didn't own it.. 'the lord giveth and the lord taketh away..' references to k irself were pretty rare as I recall, some quotes from kabir etc , most of the time it was all about surrender, understanding (which meant standing under), devotion, all of the self anhialating stuff, ridding the self of the ego so it could merge, drop in the ocean etc etc

Subject: Re: Did Maharaji ever demand devotion? From: Vicki To: AV Date Posted: Sat, Jun 29, 2002 at 11:50:03 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Does anyone remember the satsang Marolyn as aka Durga Ji gave about her birthday? Maharaji wanted to know what she wanted and she said something along the lines of not wanting a fur coat, etc etc and then I distinctly remember her saying 'You know what I want.' She then proceeded to say how Maharaji gave her this little discourse about devotion, which was all she wanted, to be surrendered in devotion. Crickey, if she wasn't surrendered in devotion, then who the heck was ever going to be able to? This wasn't in her newlywed days, either.

Subject: Well, in 1979, She got a Caddy... From: Cynthia To: Vicki Date Posted: Sat, Jun 29, 2002 at 14:58:56 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It could have been '80, whatever. I believe it was a birthday gift but could have been an anniversary one. Dates anyone? He had some premies tie the car in a Huge White Bow at DECA, and it was presented to her in private, but later on he drove it out or she drove it out, of the garage where all the other cars were. It was a Seville, I think... So, I guess she surrendered enough to warrant a brand new Cadillac. Or basically the whole thing was big act. I do have a lot of tapes from that festival...I'll look check out what I have. I have a lot of bootlegged tapes of her satsang. At that Hans Jayanti I remember words he said that were directly related to surrendering to Goomraji. 'What is the price of one word of Goomraji?' and on and on and on. 'Pray to Goomraji, surrender to Goomarji's feet.' Difficult to forget that stuff for me.

Subject: Re: Did Maharaji ever demand devotion? From: D. Votey To: Vicki Date Posted: Sat, Jun 29, 2002 at 13:29:25 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Marolyn was just voicing what any good wife and true student aspires to. Pity some people on this forum don't try to emulate her. In that place D.

Subject: Re: Did Maharaji ever demand devotion? From: Neville To: D. Votey Date Posted: Sat, Jun 29, 2002 at 15:57:15 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yeah, and look what she got for being such a good wife and student: a husband who was a serial adulterer. Pity that premies refuse to face reality. Neville

Subject: Guru Maharaji in Glastonbury 1970 From: Joy To: All Date Posted: Sat, Jun 29, 2002 at 04:40:51 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: There was a film on TV in England last night about the first Glastonbury festival (I guess in honor of it's happening this weekend again) and right in the middle was a clip of you-know-who being fawned over by Bihari Singh and Mahatma Gurucharanand, as well as some of the original hippie devotees. Susi Bai was there looking blissed out and mahatma-like in a shawl, as well as some others I didn't recognize but perhaps some of you guys will. Maharaji (or Guru Maharaj Ji as he was then known) was about 12 or 13 and looking very commanding and superior. I think he took a lot of this stance from watching his father and the tremendous adulation of the millions of Indian devotees. But he projects a sort of power and aloofness which at the time I took as a sign of his being some sort of incarnation. Now I just see it as conceit coupled with the socially imposed license to play Satguru that he inherited. He was orating in Nuremburg-rally-like-fashion about 'Knowledge of God' being within you, the thing that unites all religions, and that devotion was the key to experiencing it, etc., and I was struck by how clear and unambiguous his message was back then. I think he'd probably have lots more followers, particularly in the West, if he'd just stuck to that same theme without mincing words, even though it's controversial. It was his watering it down for mass consumption and trying to be a people-pleaser, putting on a suit and trying to appear somehow western and acceptable in his attitudes and message that made him seem so ridiculous to me in the end. (Plus the small fact that his whole Knowledge is bogus and a waste of time, not to mention devoting your life to gurus.) But he was on a powerful roll at the beginning there, and the subservient mahatmas and bodyguard made it seem all the more legitimate to my young and impressionable mind. I'm so glad I finally grew up. Now I wish he would.

Subject: Re: Guru Maharaji in Glastonbury 1970 From: Anthony To: Joy Date Posted: Wed, Jul 03, 2002 at 08:39:37 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Does anybody know where I can get a copy of the film Glastonbury Fayre? I missed it the other night. I saw it in 1974, and burst into tears in the cinema at the point Maharaji appeared on the stage. I'd be very interested to see my reaction to the same these days. Do you reckon it's out on video?

Subject: to Antony From: AV To: Anthony Date Posted: Wed, Jul 03, 2002 at 10:23:09 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: try Amazon.com if it's in print, or a memorabilia/auction site.

Subject: But now the official version From: cq To: Joy Date Posted: Mon, Jul 01, 2002 at 13:07:29 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: But now the official version is that 'Knowledge' has nothing to do with religion - OR spirituality! Boy, have McDonalds and Starbucks ever made an impact!

Subject: It was '71, From: AJW To: Joy Date Posted: Sun, Jun 30, 2002 at 09:31:29 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Joy, It was 71. I was there. Our commune, 'The Talke Pits Development Company' moved down a month before the festival and helped build the stage. Those were the days of Rizla and burned lentils. I recognised quite a few people in the film, including my young, hippy self. Anth the Grey.

Subject: The big'ning and channeling GMJ From: Richard To: Joy Date Posted: Sat, Jun 29, 2002 at 10:57:49 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Nice post Joy and a really interesting thread. After all, it was just such a dramatic big'ning that brought many of us to GMJ in the first place. I seem to recall Glastonbury Faire culture-wise was like Woodstock on steroids. There were stories of ancient prophecies being fulfilled and so on. In the midst of hippie hysteria, a clear calm voice spoke to a generation. Creezus Jhist, I'm getting all misty just thinking of those heady times when we thought we saw God in a bod. AV pointed out that Robin Heslop is shown in the video. He's the person responsible for setting up the Dish satellite-sang for M (aka PR). Ironic twist there. I suppose this means that Prem Rawat is now channeling Guru Maharaj Ji. :) Richard, hey nice acid . . . say what . . . The Perfect One is here now?

Subject: Re: Guru Maharaji in Glastonbury 1970 From: Jethro To: Joy Date Posted: Sat, Jun 29, 2002 at 07:15:31 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: My neighbour mentioned to me that she saw that program last night. I asked her if there was a boy guru in the film. She said that yes there was and that he spent a lot of time to say nothing.

Subject: Re: Guru Maharaji in Glastonbury 1970 From: AV To: Joy Date Posted: Sat, Jun 29, 2002 at 06:55:03 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The guy to the right was , I believe, Robin Heslop and further to the right a hairy Ron Geaves in full Hindu regalia if I'm not mistaken...(sheesh, even Bahari Singh was wearing a blazer and tie!) I think you are right when you said his message was clear and unambiguous: to summarise; you can't get knowledge of God from sects and religions, I have that Knowledge to show you God inside of you, to help mankind, and this knowledge you pay for with your love and devotion. (note, not a quote word for word, but the gist of...) btw, I don't believe the band Black Sabbath existed then...they certainly weren't on the end titles credits, Arthur Brown maybe? Any way, he was certainly on a powerful roll as you say; certainly the message that brought me to the fold ( I received K shortly after)

Subject: Re: Guru Maharaji in Glastonbury 1970 From: CorrecteDoc To: AV Date Posted: Sun, Jun 30, 2002 at 03:36:52 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I think you may be absoutely right AV. It could well have been Authur Brown who was there dressed in dark robes and doing his Fire demonic showpiece which was an extremely odd lead into a small Indian boy getting up there to talk about god. Glad I wan't tripping at the time - it could have been a right spin ;)

Subject: Arthur Brown in Glastonbury 1970 From: AJW To: CorrecteDoc Date Posted: Sun, Jun 30, 2002 at 09:37:48 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yes, it was Arthur Brown. He had three burning crosses in front of the stage. I think he was hanging on one of them at the start of his act, then he set fire to them when he sang 'Fire'. The other big names were Traffic, Quintessence, and Melanie. I think the Pink Fairies played naked from the waist down. There were only about 9000 people there. It was quite a small festival by today's standards. Anth the cosmic hippy

Subject: Those indomitable Pink Faerys! From: GlastonDoc To: AJW Date Posted: Mon, Jul 01, 2002 at 22:49:19 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I think it was ALL the way down Anth ;) And I remember being very confronted by such public displays of nudity, having not yet fully emerged from my anally retentive upper class womb. I belive you would have been one of those beautiful premies who made a huge and very real difference in my life. It is a pleasure to finally be able to publicly acknowledge one of you (and mean it). Whatever your position now (and it is not uncommon for students to exceed the spiritual heights of their guides) I would like to sincerely thank you for helping provide a pointer and a direction to a bunch of very lost but sincere hippie seekers from a farm in Berwick St John near Blandford. We went from that festival and inspired our little community no end. How the ripple keeps on! Doc - still rippling with love and light.

Subject: Re: Those indomitable Pink Faerys! From: The Falcon To: GlastonDoc Date Posted: Tues, Jul 02, 2002 at 00:38:58 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Now you have impressed me! I was wondering why you kept posting on this forum but your inspired comment above about 'exceeding the spiritual heights of our guides' is exactly how I feel about Maharaji! The evidence is all around and even the Gita says that even if the guru is false the sincere devotee will attain the goal. I have often said that me and my pals could teach M. more about life, the universe and everything in a weekend than he has done in 30 odd (very odd)years. all the best

Subject: Re: Those indomitable Pink Faerys! From: ExceedingDoc To: The Falcon Date Posted: Wed, Jul 03, 2002 at 02:05:35 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Guess it's true Fal, each to his own. But I still have a little bit of that 'I am a piece of human scum' going on in my brain (no agreeing comment please marshall) which tends to keep me from getting too uppity. So I can't eclipse anything much. I'm still very disturbed by Patrick's heartfelt and very relatable post on the Ashram debacle in UK. In New Zealand, we just mutinied and left. And then someone tried to burn the damn thing down! Doc - still troubled by the suffering that went on in UK :(

Subject: At the risk.... From: the Falcon To: ExceedingDoc Date Posted: Wed, Jul 03, 2002 at 13:55:57 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: of being shot down in flames- you seem very sincere and even though we differ in our beliefs/opinions of 'you know who' I do respect the humanity that you have shown to me. All the best F. (mice and occasional rabbit specialist who has many good friends who are still, unbelievably, premies???)

Subject: Re: Arthur Brown in Glastonbury 1970 From: cq To: AJW Date Posted: Mon, Jul 01, 2002 at 13:24:00 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: you mean this guy opened for the Lord of the Universe? A more recent CV: Arthur Brown – Group Leader, Inner Exercises – A psychotherapist in private practice, Arthur has combined music and counselling in the development of a therapeutic methodology that draws on traditional Western and Eastern models of the psyche. In 1973, Arthur studied with J. G. Bennett at The Academy for Continuous Education, and continued studies in formal Sufism at the Beshara School of Esoteric Education from 1976 through 1978. An accomplished musician as well as a meditation instructor, Arthur Brown has released 12 albums. An Austin resident since 1978, he has eleven years’ experience in facilitating groups, couples and individuals for psychological as well as spiritual development. Xodiac BlimeyisthathteTimeWarp li...nk here tinpan.fortunecity.com/ebony/546/glas-arfur.html tinpan.fortunecity.com/ebony/546/glas-art4.jpg

Subject: wasn't he notorious From: ray To: cq Date Posted: Tues, Jul 02, 2002 at 01:55:19 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: for wanking on stage ..also ???

Subject: Re: wasn't he notorious From: cq To: ray Date Posted: Tues, Jul 02, 2002 at 04:28:08 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: evidently not 'notorious' for it, since I've never heard that particular story about him. Mind you, I did hear he liked a big hand on his entrance ...

Subject: Re: Guru Maharaji in Glastonbury 1970 From: The Falcon To: AV Date Posted: Sat, Jun 29, 2002 at 11:06:03 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I was there but left before M, Bowie played and mimed!!?? Good do!Maharaji was booed once because when he said, 'you won't get this knowledge from sects and religions' the crowd thought he said sex and were rather displeased. The best bit in that film is where Ricardo and Lothar appear out of the long grass in full Rainbow Gypsy refinery complete with mudras.Excellent!! And at the very end there is a shot of a very blissed-out Saph with Jeffrey Segal in tow dancing down the Tor with guitars and flutes. Don't remember much about the festival though, nust have been something I ate!

Subject: Re: Guru Maharaji in Glastonbury 1970 From: Bolly To: Joy Date Posted: Sat, Jun 29, 2002 at 05:49:30 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Well said Joy, Times change Glastonbury and the guru seem to have gone in the same direction. This year a fifteen foot high steel fence has been erected to keepit all under control and keep out the freeloaders. No I wasn't there then and wouldn't want to be now. Love Bolly

Subject: Re: Guru Maharaji in Glastonbury 1970 From: GlastonburyDoc To: Joy Date Posted: Sat, Jun 29, 2002 at 04:56:50 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It was 1971 and Black Sabbath were playing at the time. Very weird! I have to say though, that the premies the next day were really beautiful and somehow clearer and higher than us stoned, tripped out hippies. I think that's what led a whole bunch of us swarming to the ashram to get Special K. Knowledge is bogus and a waste of time? That's just a matter of opinion Joy and that's all it ever will be.

Subject: Glastonbury film-changed perspective From: Livia To: GlastonburyDoc Date Posted: Sun, Jun 30, 2002 at 14:28:32 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I watched a bit of that film the other night and have taped the rest - can't wait to watch it! It was funny, though - I saw this film a few times as a premie and remember always thinking how crazy and in their heads everybody looked. Then Maharaji appeared with the premies and I used to think how peaceful and serene they looked in comparison with everybody else. Then I watched the first half hour of it the other night and to my surprise was struck instead by how very radiant most of the punters looked, and how united they all seemed. The whole vibe was quite mystical, sort of innocent and really rather wonderful, and the craziness I perceived on previous viewing appeared to be absent. It all harked back to my actual memories of that time, which was special, and the acid was very pure in those days! I missed that festival due to unfortunate personal circumstances at the time, but remember people who had been there (not premies) coming to stay with me immediately afterwards; they all seemed to be in a completely exalted state. My previous reading of the film says an awful lot about the prejudices and preconceptions I developed as a premie and how they coloured what I saw. It'll be interesting to see how M and the premies look when I get to that part of the film - if I can manage to view it in an unbiased manner - I'll do my best. Love, Livia

Subject: Interesting Liv From: GlastonDoc To: Livia Date Posted: Mon, Jul 01, 2002 at 23:03:50 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: And a rather more healthy recollection than mine ;) I always hailed it as my big awakening, though (as you will see) it was quite bizzarre when M followed Arthur Brown. I remember his squeky urgency kind of put a downer on us lot who wanted a rock and roll rage to blow the cobwebs from our tired psyches. I was in the process of falling madly in love with a German angel called Mo who was the target of several blokes, so I was somewhat less than chilled. However, the next day was indeed magical and very serene and we understood from the premies like Anth that it was all due to the little M. The rest as we say...is current History! Doc - who will now always be grateful to Anth for pointing the way for him. :)

Subject: Check out my younger self. From: AJW To: Livia Date Posted: Mon, Jul 01, 2002 at 07:35:52 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Livia, If you've got the video of the movie, you can see what I looked like as a young hippy. Near the end of the movie, after the music has finished, there's a shot of a guy with long hair and a beard outside a plastic tent, (plastic stolen from building site), painted gold and black, with acid graffitti, like 'God Rules OK'. I'm poking the fire and look up and smile when the camera comes onto me. Other premie faces are Frank Howard (driving jeep in tea cosy hat) and Andrew Kerr, (talking to Melanie on the phone). Anth no longer living in a stolen home.

Subject: Re: Check out my younger self. From: Livia To: AJW Date Posted: Tues, Jul 02, 2002 at 00:48:49 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Still haven't had time to watch the second half of it but have already spotted Andrew Kerr with long tousled hair talking to Melanie, and a few other familiar faces. I shall look out for you! Love, Liv

Subject: Stolen home! Yeah,right! (NT) From: The Falcon To: AJW Date Posted: Mon, Jul 01, 2002 at 15:54:35 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: The Premies. From: AJW To: GlastonburyDoc Date Posted: Sun, Jun 30, 2002 at 09:42:49 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The premies were definitely not higher than the members of our commune, who were taking the most superb, pure acid throughout the six week period of the festival. The premies were running around like the cultheads they were, and we were soon to become. Did you see the angel by the stage on the third day Joy? The MC was talking to it and the whole audience was looking at it. Anth the psychedelic.

Subject: Angel? From: Joy To: AJW Date Posted: Sun, Jun 30, 2002 at 14:31:54 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I've never heard about an angel. A real one? Everybody saw it? Cool. Perhaps it was the Angel Gabriel come to warn everybody off Maharaji! I wasn't at the festival though (see below).

Subject: Re: Angel? From: AJW To: Joy Date Posted: Mon, Jul 01, 2002 at 07:38:19 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yes Joy, the angel appeared. It was hovering next to the main stage during the afternoon. The audience all stopped looking at the stage and a buzz went round the crowd. The MC noticed everyone's attention had moved to the side of the stage, turned, and saw it himself. He then started talking to it on the PA. Somebody from the Independent newspaper interviewed me about it a few years ago. Anth the Angel Delight

Subject: Those were the days! (NT) From: The Falcon To: AJW Date Posted: Mon, Jul 01, 2002 at 15:57:08 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: The Premies. From: The Falcon To: AJW Date Posted: Sun, Jun 30, 2002 at 11:26:32 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It's all coming back to me, the acid, the angel, David Bowie levitating eerrmmm?-maybe not! but he was there on stage, honest and the rabbits all came out of the hedges to play with us (true!). This was after Pir Vilayat Khan got everybody Sufi dancing , they were obviously hiding from Maharaji!I am reminded of the prophecy about the coming of Quetzocoatl in South America - on the day he was supposed to come to liberate the Incas, guess who showed-Cortes! Bad luck, guys, mind you, on reflection, we got off light. I do suspect that Maharaji at Glastonbury was a bit more contrived than that though, step forward-Ron Geaves,Saph, David Thorpe etc.

Subject: bill in Glastonbury 2002 From: bill To: GlastonburyDoc Date Posted: Sat, Jun 29, 2002 at 07:48:28 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I went to high school at Glastonbury High in Conn USA and the towns 'sister city' is the same glastonbury england you are mentioning. The town hall has letters displayed with info ect. G Doc says knowledge is a waste of time is a matter of opinion. Feeling your breath is something smokers do also, but the cigarette packs dont come with the misperception of life and reality that ALL the meditation groups come with. That is not a waste of time if you have 700 years to blow on whatever, or if you dont see the effects how one views life has on thier life, or dont care about details like accuracy or the self applied mud on the face of the living shrine of truth. Here in Glastonbury Conn, where I work most days, all the folks struggle to deal with the pursuits in life while comeing to some conclusions about why trouble follows every man. ALL the meditation groups have no answers or explanations the THOSE realities except weak guesses like ''karma'', or in the case of the genius rawat family, it is YOUR fault that you arent in ''that place''. Which is pathetic frankly and wont satisfy anyone who actually has to deal with this life.

Subject: Glastonbury in Conneticut? From: AJW To: bill Date Posted: Sun, Jun 30, 2002 at 09:45:02 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Glastonbury in Conneticut? Next you'll be telling me Paris is in Texas. Anth, living in Cornwall, Zimbabwe.

Subject: Re: Glastonbury in Conneticut? From: The Falcon To: AJW Date Posted: Sun, Jun 30, 2002 at 11:40:23 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: yeah but the blue acid was shit, man!

Subject: Re: Guru Maharaji in Glastonbury 1970 From: gerry To: GlastonburyDoc Date Posted: Sat, Jun 29, 2002 at 07:35:56 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I have to say though, that the premies the next day were really beautiful and somehow clearer and higher than us stoned, tripped out hippies. How do you know this, Dave? I mean really, isn't this just a very subjective impression you might have had some thirty years ago? I think it's just a matter of opinion and that's all it will ever be...

Subject: Re: Guru Maharaji in Glastonbury 1970 From: anon To: gerry Date Posted: Mon, Jul 01, 2002 at 08:38:12 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I went one better than u lot, I touched Maharaji,s feet as he came up the stairs...............lol lol lol

Subject: That's right gerry From: Dave To: gerry Date Posted: Sun, Jun 30, 2002 at 03:46:14 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It is just my opinion. At that festival there were a lot of local lads from the nearby towns (in 1971) who hadn't been there in 1970 and us 'old hands' were turning up our nose at them getting smashed on cider and throwing up all over the place. If they weren't doing that they were acosting stoned hippie girls thinking they'd get a free bonk - all very disturbing to us sincere real truth seekers:) Add to that our complete desolation about Jimi's death and his highly conspicuous absence - it wasn't a very happy time except for this extraordinary prediction that HE would return again. So yea, the premies the next day were a breath of fresh air, really open, cool, loving, beautiful...all the qualities that a good Afghan hashish would bring out. But sadly, there wasn't any hash of that quality at the festival site. :(

Subject: Which festival were you at David? From: AJW To: Dave Date Posted: Sun, Jun 30, 2002 at 09:54:49 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It doesn't sound like the same one I was at. I didn't see any drunks from the town throwing up all over theplace. Sounds like you were hanging out with a bunch of Hendrix anoraks who'd been sold some bum hash, and were generally on a downer. If you'd have met us, we'd have sold you some good gear. And who predicted that Hendrix would return again? I never heard that. Anth, 'beauty is in the eye of the leaseholder'.

Subject: Both From: David To: AJW Date Posted: Wed, Jul 03, 2002 at 02:25:59 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Shepton was a gas, things were still grooving, the party was on, the acid was spectacular. Glastonbury 1971 was a very different scene for us London based and newly countryfied searchers. The dream was over so was Jimi and a few others we knew and loved. For some odd reason our drug guy screwed up with the planning and all we took to the site was some mediocre hash (red leb). So we were a bit disappointed not to be able to get some good gear when we arrived. Guess we were just basically bummed because we knew the dream was over and all the stage meetings about setting up an 'alternative' community and god knows what else just seemed silly and unrealistic. Of course, that's when our 'saviour' decided to show up and announce his presence in no uncertain terms, so after the initial shock, we realised were actually very blessed at that festival and finally walked away higher than ever - but on a completely different journey - that has yet to end :) It was not Jimi who was expected back at the Glastonbury Tor during that time -it was the Lord, as predicted by Joseph of Aramithea (sp) who left his staff near the Abbey and which turned into a tree - he said 'this is where my father will come.' Then twelve year old kid shows up :) Go figure!!! Doc - who wonders if Marshall ever posts anything positive about anyone or anything anywhere at all.

Subject: Re: Both From: The Falcon To: David Date Posted: Wed, Jul 03, 2002 at 22:18:51 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Prophecy does not always work out the way it's told though, for example;- on the very day that Qetzalcoatl was prophecied to return to the Americas guess who came over the horizon-Cortes.The Incas welcomed him and his barbarous crew thinking they were gods, he marched his army down their golden roads to the holy of holies and there, in his own time, slaughtered them. Self-fulfilling prophecy? History is full of it and that kind of 'magical thinking' just leads to heartbreak. Life has its own intrinsic meaning and does not require any overlay from us. We were so tripped out back then that any old avatar would do, M. just fitted the bill but now,years later, most certainly does not. I think he could have been much more effective with a modicum of humility and much less greed.His choice, all of it, how very, very sad. I do not hate him, in fact I feel much compassion for him and the fact that his addiction to being worshipped (and he is, don't deny it) has obscured the fact that the paradidgm has shifted from 'one to many' teaching on to 'many to many'. Phase 2 anyone? (again) His boat is full of holes! (I don't mean his yacht either)

Subject: Aztec not Inca From: PatD To: The Falcon Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 04, 2002 at 03:51:57 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Sorry to be picky. Incidentally,I've always thought that given The Aztec's bloodthirstyness,Cortes was a dead ringer for the plumed serpent god.

Subject: yes, you are right From: The Falcon To: PatD Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 04, 2002 at 06:56:25 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I got confused with Atahualpa, another chief, another time, another tyrant imperialist and Christopher Plummer's greatest role! (Royal Hunt of the Sun) all the best

Subject: J of Aramathea's thorn.... From: PatD To: David Date Posted: Wed, Jul 03, 2002 at 04:04:49 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ....has been identified by the seekers,who of course still gravitate to Glastonbury & decorate it with Tibetan prayer flags etc. Unfortunately it was planted by the Municipal Council in 1956,but that's an in joke amongst thelocals,one of whom is a friend of mine. Incidentally,the town was a major manufactuary of fake relics,what Chaucer called 'pygges bonys',in the middle ages. Some things never change eh.

Subject: Hey, can you guys remember..... From: Joy To: AJW Date Posted: Sun, Jun 30, 2002 at 14:28:48 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: If there was any other type of pop festival around 1970-71 in England? I recall going to one with my hippie friends I was living with in London around 1971 or so, but can't, for the life of me remember where it was or who played. I'm pretty sure it wasn't Glastonbury. We were so stoned that I guess I formed no memories of the occasion, except I clearly remember riding back in the van, perhaps the drugs had worn off by then (guess it's a classic case of if you can remember the 60s, you weren't really there). Guess this is all totally off topic. But I'm scratching my head trying to remember where that festival might've been and who played at it. I'm sure I'd have remembered the Lord of the Universe if I'd seen him then, so it wasn't Glastonbury.

Subject: Re: Hey, can you guys remember..... From: AV To: Joy Date Posted: Mon, Jul 01, 2002 at 10:06:23 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: was it the the one at parliament hill fields with jefferson airplane? must have been good, I remember being there!

Subject: Bath Festival..... From: The Falcon To: Joy Date Posted: Mon, Jul 01, 2002 at 00:50:42 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: held near Shepton Mallet with Jefferson Airplane, Led Zeppelin, Santana, Doctor John the Night Tripper (voodoo at dawn, anyone?)carrot chillums and shared sleeping bags (restrained sex).Ah yes, I can't remember it very well at all. It could have been this one, Joy. It was also the inspiration for Michael Eavis to start The Glastonbury Festival, he climbed through the hedge to get in and has been paying off the karma ever since (till this year)Just kidding-you scientists and atheists.

Subject: Re: Hey, can you guys remember..... From: Livia To: Joy Date Posted: Sun, Jun 30, 2002 at 15:34:28 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yes, there was a festival in 1970 in the West Country. It was in a field near a place called Shepton Mallet and is sometimes described as the first Glastonbury festival, although I remember it being called the Bath festival at the time. Pink Floyd played there, along with Frank Zappa, Jefferson Airplane, Country Joe and the Fish, Donovan and loads of other people. The music was just amazing and everybody was completely out of their heads. I remember the first part of it but then I dropped some acid and the rest of it is a blur. This is probably the festival you're thinking of, although there was an Isle of Wight festival that year too and probably some Hyde Park concerts too. (Was that the year the Stones played there?) Love, Livia

Subject: Yep, that's the one (OT) From: Joy To: Livia Date Posted: Mon, Jul 01, 2002 at 00:47:54 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: That is the one I went to, Shepton Mallet, thanks so much, Livia!! It's such a pity to have gone to all those great festivals back in those days and not be able to remember a thing about it. What I wouldn't give to be able to step back in time and re-experience some of that great music. On the other hand, I am more than happy to erase from memory any and all traces of the many dozens of Maharaji's 'festivals' I attended in the 1970s.

Subject: Re: Which festival were you at David? From: Marshall To: AJW Date Posted: Sun, Jun 30, 2002 at 14:02:34 (PDT) Email Address: none Message: Hi AJW, That's funny, I thought the same thing as you. Of course I wasn't there being as I'm only 30 and haven't been to England. However my first reaction to Daves post was, 'What a bummer guy, must have been in the wrong scene'. I'm sure people in the 'know' there, as anywhere had access to great drugs. Only squids get bunk anything. What a lame-o.

Subject: Fuck off, rawat From: Angela To: All Date Posted: Fri, Jun 28, 2002 at 18:37:45 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Fuck off, rawat. Get the hell out of my life, out of my marriage and out of my husband's head. You have done enough damage, to untold thousands of innocent people. Take your sorry ass back to India. If they want to worship your pathetic shadow of a teacher, they can, but get the fuck out of my life. You are the epitome of greed, sloth and obscene self-indulgence. Your voice and your face fill me with nausea and disgust. And the idea that anyone could dedicate themselves to you utterly boggles my mind. As for worshiping you, I feel only pity for them, and loathing for you.

Subject: I know how you feel From: JohnT To: Angela Date Posted: Sun, Jun 30, 2002 at 14:43:55 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yeah, I do. I married a premie too. What a headfuck, huh? JohnT - never a premie

Subject: Clearly expressed, Angela From: JHB To: Angela Date Posted: Sat, Jun 29, 2002 at 09:02:05 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Succinctly expressed, Angela. I'm not sure Prem Rawat reads this forum, but I'm sure the people who monitor it for him will pass the message on:) Seriously, have you tried printing out pages from www.ex-premie.org and leaving them lying around the house? I find for myself that I'll read anything left in the toilet. Good luck! John

Subject: Re: Fuck off, rawat From: Marshall To: Angela Date Posted: Fri, Jun 28, 2002 at 19:43:44 (PDT) Email Address: none Message: Right on sister, I'll second that! Rawat got his grubby paws onto my parents when they were young, dumb, and vulnerable. Consequently they tried, unsucessfully, to get me into it with them. Even after being dragged along to every festival in the 70's, exposed to endless satsang, arti, etc. I still wasn't indoctrinated. I was even 'given the knowledge', but I just couldn't relate. How could I? I was fine, I was just a kid. Kids are usually fine, it's the adults who are always all screwed up and angst ridden. So anyway I saw through all the bull quick enough, but my parents are basically ruined by Rawat's cult. They don't think so, but they aren't objective and they're in denial, like all cult members. Rawat's at a lower level than a drug dealer to me. Even a drug dealer provides more than just hot air. I wish Rawat would fess up and force the remaining die hards to give it all up. He could just slither away with his millions and retire. Let people get on with their lives. Mr. Rawat. Please.

Subject: Re: Fuck off, rawat From: anon To: Marshall Date Posted: Sat, Jun 29, 2002 at 09:04:59 (PDT) Email Address: swanley@hotmail.com Message: is maraji the anti christ, he definatly has gone in to some sort of regressision. I dont mind what happens to him it,s what he does with your mind that wories me. In the bible it says that as the world draws to an end, man would seek death, and death would elude him. Maharaji I feel very sad that u should be bringing about this situation. He has definately run away with the money When i joined you i asked you to take my mind from me now i want it back

Subject: Hi Marshall From: Jethro To: Marshall Date Posted: Fri, Jun 28, 2002 at 19:55:58 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I was 'step-father' for a while to someone who got k when he was 5(in the back of a car!!). His mother was qiute a Gopi-type and dragged him around from place to place to see m. His father who wasn't a premie didn't know where the boy was for 7 years. Fortunately, he hasn't been adversley affected, other than being somewhat embarrassed when it is brought up. He's now in his early 30s and his mum is an ex. chers Jethro

Subject: Good lord! From: Marshall To: Jethro Date Posted: Sun, Jun 30, 2002 at 07:47:55 (PDT) Email Address: none Message: Jethro, That is really funny that a 5 year old child was given the 'knowledge', in the back of a car?, no less. How ridiculous! At that age a bowl of ice cream beats meditating. Still does, now that I think about it. As far as being embarrassed...yea, I used to feel embarrassed about it up until about the time I discovered e.p.o. Now I laugh about it and I'm comfortable talking about it. I am embarrassed for my parents however, but they can do what they want, I suppose. Bye, Marshall

Subject: Embarrassment and the cult From: gerry To: Marshall Date Posted: Sun, Jun 30, 2002 at 08:54:28 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I used to be very embarrassed when anyone would mention my cult involvement and never told anyone about it who didn't already know. I don't mind talking about it with anyone now. Understanding the dynamics and talking with other former cult members takes the sting out of it.

Subject: Apology From: The Falcon To: All Date Posted: Fri, Jun 28, 2002 at 09:24:46 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I am not comfortable with anonymity but, right now, it is essential and much more effective! Love to all exes and premies (or whatever new shite thing they're called these days). please note; it takes about one hour to de-programme a premie who is a friend. longing for mischief in Brighton

Subject: No problem... From: Cynthia To: The Falcon Date Posted: Fri, Jun 28, 2002 at 10:14:05 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hey Falcon, I have no problem with anonymity as long as you stay with one name--otherwise we can't tell the real folks from the trolls;) Btw, I don't think I introduced myself. I'm Cynthia Gracie from Vermont, USA. I got the big k in 1976 in Hartford, CT, moved into the ashram there, then was down in Miami for the big ole DECA debacle. Got burnt out in Miami, and was shipped to the Gainesville ashram for about a year and left in January 1981. Still worshipped his toenails, so I didn't really exit until about 1997-98. Welcome...I've been reading your posts and like your style a lot! Best regards, Cynthia

Subject: That's OK Steve (nt) From: AJW To: The Falcon Date Posted: Fri, Jun 28, 2002 at 09:46:04 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: oops

Subject: AJW should be banned From: Jethro To: AJW Date Posted: Fri, Jun 28, 2002 at 19:57:42 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: for giving away secrets!!!!!!!

Subject: PS: Anth From: Jethro To: Jethro Date Posted: Fri, Jun 28, 2002 at 20:23:50 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I bet you 5d that Falcon is not Steve.

Subject: The Falcon. From: AJW To: Jethro Date Posted: Sun, Jun 30, 2002 at 09:49:09 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jeth, You're right. I know who he is. In a moment of foolish weakness, he revealed his secret identity to me. But I'm sworn to secrecy. Anth (Jeth, just between the two of us, his name is Harry McCarthy. He used to live in Wolverhampton Ashram before he went to Bihar to do propagation. I believe he was successful and now has eight children.)

Subject: Re: The Anth From: The Falcon To: AJW Date Posted: Sun, Jun 30, 2002 at 11:39:14 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Seven, be honest, mate! The trailer is getting more homely now that we've fixed the leak, how is your beach hut? Do I sound like a Brummie? Where is Clive Atkins when you need him, a lovely soul in exile? Is Harry on the boat?

Subject: The big Q. From: Bris To: All Date Posted: Fri, Jun 28, 2002 at 04:30:57 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Reading through this forum, and other related web sites, is like turning over a big stone in the garden and seeing vast numbers of creepy things scuttle out - I'm talking about the murky past of M. and some of his close followers, of course, not you gentle posters. All these foul deeds and furtive cover ups - are they really true? Every last one of them? When I sat in a hall, listening to M. or watching a video, tears running down my face from overflowing joy (which nobody saw - not that they'd have given a flying f**k if they had); where did that feeling come from? You might say it was self-delusion - but it was vividly real to me. Can a source of joy reside in a human form tainted by drink, drugs, fornication and all manner of other shenanigans? Not in my book. And Im never really practised as much as I could, either - in that reference, I was a pretty sh**ty premie all round. Bit still I lived for another day, another event where I could give in to something rising up inside. Maybe most people would dismiss all this a crock of s**t, not worthy of a forum like this. Maybe you're right. But it still demands an answer - where did all the good stuff come from? The same place as the bad stuff? BriS

Subject: No way a crock BriS! From: Bryn To: Bris Date Posted: Sat, Jun 29, 2002 at 09:41:26 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: This is the stuff of real spiritual discovery BriS; the very stuff we could never approach when goverened by the rules laid down by premie-land. M would never permit any sincere public reflection or open ecxhange of perspective between his devotees-hence all the silly postures and gobshite that we used as social currency between ourselves. In my opinion the basic question 'can something so sweet come from something bad' is a clear symptom of a will to preserve the status quo. Take out of the equation the resolve to validate the guru figure as a sublime love focus, and the question disappears (technically anyway!.)Maybe he is good maybe he is bad, forget the sacred picture of him and either way goodness and badness cease to be the issue. What the issue then is,is:' So what was going on back then that made those things happen for me?' or words to that effect. Then the whole thing gets very personal and deeper too, and needs self examination and integrity. In short, take away the will to believe from out of all of this and you are left with a basic if uncomfortable process of self evaluation-no more. 'Can good come from bad' ideas are a smoke screen, a red herring. A smoked herring screen. I found that I had merely been through a certain process, no more than that, and 'the knowlege of god', 'supreme Master', 'Sat Guru Dev' etc were all charming but delusory stages on a continuing path. Huzzah! Love Bryn

Subject: Re: The big Q. From: Jerry To: Bris Date Posted: Sat, Jun 29, 2002 at 08:02:01 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I remember once sitting in a satsang hall shortly before satsang, I was all alone before the crowd got there, and I was just staring, I guess you good say meditating, on a large portrait of Maharaji in the front of the hall. It was just me and him, me staring at him, and him staring back at me through his portrait when, suddenly, I felt a deep pang of love that I hadn't felt for some time. Most of my life at this time had been a feeling of emptiness, like living on a desert, and this feeling of love was something unique to me at the time. I didn't make much of it, though. Somebody else might have felt the love was coming from Maharaji, through his portrait, but my deepest instincts told me 'this is all you, Jerry, this is coming from you.' I still feel that way today, that it came from me. It wasn't something between me and Maharaji. I'm certain he has no idea I once shared such a private moment with a portrait of him, and I'm equally certain that he has no such power to radiate love from near or afar that touches those who come in contact. I don't see him as a beacon of love, only a catalyst as a result of what we hope for and expect from him. But you seem to think the 'source of joy' was coming to you from Mahaarjai. I hate to burst your bubble, Bris, but in all probability it was all just you. Every feeling you had came from you. Maharaji was just a catalyst for it, not the source of it.

Subject: Maybe not... From: gerry To: Jerry Date Posted: Sat, Jun 29, 2002 at 09:36:01 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Maharaji was just a catalyst for it, not the source of it. Jer, I don't see how 'maharaji' the man, was a catalyst in this situation whatsoever. He wasn't there, it was just a picture and it was all you.

Subject: Re: Maybe not... From: Jerry To: gerry Date Posted: Sat, Jun 29, 2002 at 12:19:39 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Well, it was a picture of Maharaji, Gerry. I don't think gazing at just anyone's picture would have that kind of an effect. At least, not anybody I wasn't enamored by such as I was by Maharaji and what he meant to me. I thought this guy was going to open the gates of heaven for me. Now I see that only Jennifer Love Hewitt can do that for me. Check out Me and Jennifer. I look a lot like Carson Daly, don't I?

Subject: it was just a picture and it was all you From: AV To: gerry Date Posted: Sat, Jun 29, 2002 at 09:46:27 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: If you were a christian and stared at a picture of Christ for long enough, do you think something similar is likely to happen?

Subject: Re: it was just a picture and it was all you From: gerry To: AV Date Posted: Sat, Jun 29, 2002 at 11:33:09 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: If you were a christian and stared at a picture of Christ for long enough, do you think something similar is likely to happen? --- Absolutely. There are many instances of this in the Christian mystic tradition.

Subject: Strength through Joy From: PatD To: Bris Date Posted: Fri, Jun 28, 2002 at 16:01:23 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Can a source of joy reside in a human form tainted by drink, drugs, fornication and all manner of other shenanigans? Not in my book. Yes it can ; Fuehrerkontakt,as described,understood,& manipulated by the Visions International of the day back in '30's Germany.(Leni Riefenstahl et al). Look,it's a shaming thing.I've had a hard time coming to grips with it myself,but the truth of the matter is that back in the glory days of 'spread this knowledge to every land',our psychological makeup was no different from that of the Nazis. That's the bedrock. My sister was on holiday in Normandie a couple of weeks ago when some old guys with Welsh accents arrived at the hotel.Survivors of D Day come to pay their respects at the graves of their old friends. My sister bumped into one of these men in the corridor & said 'thank you',he wept. I am ashamed that I ever followed Prem Pal Singh Rawat.

Subject: Hi PatD - lovely story From: Marianne To: PatD Date Posted: Fri, Jun 28, 2002 at 19:03:39 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hullo PattyD. How are you doing? The little story about your sister's meeting with the D Day soldiers choked me up. She thanked those guys for millions of people. Good on her for doing that. She must have been amazed when the old guy cried. I wish I could have been there to hug him and say thanks too. Hope all is well with you and yours. Fond regards, Marianne

Subject: All well,love to you too [nt] From: PatD To: Marianne Date Posted: Sat, Jun 29, 2002 at 17:53:41 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: Strength through Joy From: Cynthia To: PatD Date Posted: Fri, Jun 28, 2002 at 18:25:24 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dear PatD, You said you are ashamed of ever following Rawat. I understand shame; I've lived in shame most of my life. It was living in so much shame that brought me to the epoch of snapping out of my emotional illness and the cult. The shame belongs to Goomraji. Please try to forgive yourself and let that shame crumble up into bits of ash that you can throw in his direction. You were cult programmed, it wasn't your fault. See, this is what I've been trying to get across to the exes and fence sitters. We were conned! I don't see any shame in being conned; I see shame on and in the Conman, Maharaji. Therefore, I urge you to give yourself a fucking break. I've been thinking a lot about this. I've read a lot about this cult business. There was a point where we surrendered our freedom of thought. But after that, free will was lost. Now you have your free will back, don't be ashamed. That's about 25 cents worth, Love, Cynthia

Subject: Re: Strength through Joy From: PatD To: Cynthia Date Posted: Sat, Jun 29, 2002 at 17:50:28 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks Cynthia. I'm not going to throw myself in the river over all this,but I do think that it takes 2 to tango.Sure,after getting the sucker punch(stone age meds)I was putty in the hands of we who were the cult.Actually,not all that pliable,but that's bye the bye. Some people,lots of people,took one look at the guy & us & ran. I didn't.That's all I'm saying. I wish I had more time to crack on,I wish I could talk to you & everyone else in the flesh all night long.We'd have a great time. However, we can send each other little postcards of thought & memories through a medium that even God Incarnate can't control.LOL

Subject: Pat D. is that the From: Bolly To: PatD Date Posted: Fri, Jun 28, 2002 at 16:09:45 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: anniversary of the Dunkirk evacuation your sister was at? Bolly

Subject: Re: The big Q. From: Neville To: Bris Date Posted: Fri, Jun 28, 2002 at 10:45:22 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It came from the same place that every single other cult got their experiences. Without these experiences no cults would exist. Neville

Subject: Re: The big Q. From: Cynthia To: Bris Date Posted: Fri, Jun 28, 2002 at 10:42:52 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hello BriS, So far no one has mentioned in this thread that we all were cult programmed. The reason I mention this is because I relate to all the things you said in your above post. I adored M, I loved to meditate. I lived only for him, but not for myself. All that was part of the package presented to each of us individually through satsang initially. As we became premies, I believed (felt that I 'knew') that the package was a 'gift' from maharaji, whom I looked to for all of my life experiences. Even if you set aside all the shitty things maharaji did in his past, he still was setting us up for guru worship and I for one fell for his speil. And it was a speil. Therefore, I don't believe now that any of it was self-delusion. Getting sucked into a false belief system and all the stuff surrounding maharaji, whether Hindu or new age, is not entirely our fault. I had very powerful experiences through SS&M. I spent time up close and personal with him. I ignored any fallibility which he displayed because I was that far gone into the cult. And please don't call yourself a shitty premie. That's another mindf**k he instilled within all of us--that was part of the cult-programming. I agree with everyone who stated this below: whatever you experienced that was good was inside of you. It was maharaji who made us believe that only he was the source and possibility to having a good life with beautiful feelings. When you add to all this cult-programming the revelations about maharaji's real life behavior and his blantant disregard for the feelings and lifestyles (prescribed by him) of his devotees (and I was a gopi), then the real truth about him simply confirms that he screwed with our minds and lives in a very destructive way. I would suggest that you read some of the anti-cult sites. There are many. Some are provided on EPO. ReFocus is a tremendous site which describes in many ways the process of being programmed, and the feelings on the way out. I posted a link to ReFocus...it's been very helpful to me and others here in gaining an understanding about how cults operate and how people get pulled into them (and out). Best, Cynthia ReFocus refocus.org/

Subject: Re: The big Q. From: The Falcon To: Bris Date Posted: Fri, Jun 28, 2002 at 08:55:44 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It came from within yourself and once free of the M bullshit-still does! This forum can get pretty polarised regarding the 'spiritual' side of things (may it ever be so!-very healthy in my opinion) but my paricular colours are pinned firmly to the mast of enlightenment as a very distinct possibilty, although I do love science's confirmation of the ancient wisdom; A good read is 'The Serpent and the Goddess'in which an anthropologist goes to South America and visits the curanderos (shamen) there, they give him ayahuasca and he takes the journey, on his return they give him their paintings.He then takes these to a molecular biologist who points out RNA, DNA, cell structures etc. Deeply intriguing stuff! More examples;- The may pole dance. The high and lonesome reel. The weaver goddess of the Celts. (on this, more later) And Rumi, back there in the 12th century talking about splitting atoms and producing light (some 600 years before Einstein). You are the source of your own joy (and everything else, perception is not reality!) all the best

Subject: Re: The big Q....A few big A's... From: la-ex To: Bris Date Posted: Fri, Jun 28, 2002 at 08:50:10 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hey Bris- Thanks for that great question, because I think that it gets to the heart of the great premie paradox/debate. When premies get threatened by stuff on EPO,they invariably turn to the argument of the 'Experience'.....they will say stuff ike 'but my experiences have been so real and personal, for almost 30 years, over and over again...how can you deny that?' Many times they will frantically race all over the globe to the next program to have more of these 'experiences', to try and ward off the confronting doubts of the great enemy - 'the mind', 'doubtmaker' etc... It is a good question....in fact I think that more good questions like this should be framed in a special section of EPO, to be answered by premies and exes alike..... Here are a few thoughts on it: 1)I do believe that maharaji, combined with a crowd of adoring, expectant premies gazing at him and focusing on his every word, can provide some sort of high experience for those who are open to it, and are believing that he can deliver it. My father, who is not a spiritual guy at all, once called him a 'spellbinder', and said that every generation has them. They can 'cast a spell',and the followers report all kinds of high, magical experiences from being around them. I don't think this is anything new, and if you check out ANY guru, their followers will all tell you exactly the same thing. People have amazing experiences meeting movie stars, rock stars, political leaders, the pope etc. I think many times they would have the same experience with that personality, even if it were an imposter they were seeing. 2)I believe that maharaji milks this for all it is worth, because this is really all he has to offer. Let's face it-meditation is a bust.....most premies don't even do the required one hour/day, and also don't have any amazing experiences with it. A few do, and experiences can be gotten from any meditation, if one does the techniques with a belief in them, and a willingness to do them regularly. Premies generally don't like the organization, and don't want to do anything for it, unless it's for maharaji personally.(there goes 'service' 'Satsang' is listening to videos, which are Booooring! He does absolutely Nothing for society, or the self empowerment of the premies. What he can do is teach you how to become his devotee, plain and simple.... The only 'ace in the hole' he has, is his ability to co-create this charisma with the premies, and while he plays coy with it, as if he's really shy about it, he desparately needs the adoration, and milks it for everythng he can, because that's where the money is, and that's where the high, for him, is. I believe these programs he runs around doing are totally for him, NOT the premies. They are also to troll for a few new, hopefully wealthy, converts. 3)I believe that he is an unabashed liar and manipulator, and yes, you can have these charismatic experiences, and also be totally foul, amoral and deceitful, as he is. Many historical personalities have done exactly that. People have reported seemingly spiritual,mystical experiences around Hitler and Stalin, hardly 'spiritual leaders'.(I'm not comparing him to them, jsut noting that 'experiences' can some from many places.) I have heard him say that someone can have the experience he talks about, and also be doing something totally immoral. He said this in LA, and I was so naive at the tme that I didn't even consider the fact that he was probably talking about himself. 4)IMO, the great lie that has been promoted is this: When we would go to these programs, as premies, and have high experiences while there, those experiences were momentary and maharaji knew it. However, he would declare that he was always in 'that experience' and would scream at us to get there as well. This is impossible, yet he pretended to be in some exalted place constantly, and created a dependency in premies to try and be there all the time, when he knew that he wasn't, and they would never be either. This hurt so many peoples lives, as they tried to pursue a totally unrealistic and unattainable goal, and caused them to become even more dependent on him,and feel worse about themselves, as they realized they were never attaining the mythical place he was supposedly occupying. 5)I believe that maharaji's 'shadow side', is in direct proportion to the 'fairy tale' side that he promotes on stage. The immorality comes from the fact that almost all gurus create an amoral atmosphere around them, and declare themselves as being above judgement, as the master. Followers, having accepted the 'divine nature' of the guru, are scared shitless to even criticize the guru, much less confront him. With this 'moral carte blanche', the guru gets what the guru wants, and eventually begins to despise the premies in their grovelling manner, but also finds it impossible to give up the addiction he has developed for devotion, wealth and substance abuse. I believe that his drinking is what helps him maintain a balance between the two lives...however, it never works, and eventually Humpty Dumpty will fall,and all the premies will not be able to put him back again.

Subject: To la-ex From: Livia To: la-ex Date Posted: Sat, Jun 29, 2002 at 02:26:23 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi la-ex. wonderful post. You said: I have heard him say that someone can have the experience he talks about, and also be doing something totally immoral. Do you remember when he said that, and what the context was? Because when you think about it, it's an extremely odd thing to say. It kind of rubbishes any idea of intrinsic goodness in Knowledge and implictly gives premies (and himself) permission to be amoral. I just find the whole idea that he ever said that weird. I mean, obviously Maharaji has done a whole lot of amoral things, and so have premies, but for him to actually come out and say that one can be experiencing Knowledge and still do immoral things - what did he mean? Did he mean it's OK to do immoral things then? As long as you're experiencing Knowledge it doesn't matter what you do? God!!! I was under some sort of illusion/delusion then, that if you were truly experiencing Knowledge you would only be impelled to do things that were, um, like, OK! Sorry, I have to admit I'm totally bamboozled/flummoxed here. Please explain!!! love, Livia

Subject: la-ex excellent... From: Bolly To: la-ex Date Posted: Fri, Jun 28, 2002 at 16:05:16 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: A good bunch of answers, La-Ex [nt] From: Neville To: la-ex Date Posted: Fri, Jun 28, 2002 at 10:50:35 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Excellent post, la-ex - 5 star [nt] From: Marshall To: la-ex Date Posted: Fri, Jun 28, 2002 at 09:32:14 (PDT) Email Address: none Message: o

Subject: a must-read post from LA-EX! (NT) From: The Falcon To: la-ex Date Posted: Fri, Jun 28, 2002 at 08:59:39 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: The big Q. From: AV To: Bris Date Posted: Fri, Jun 28, 2002 at 08:08:45 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Bris, no....not a crock of shit, those are the feelings I lived for too; I never really swallowed the whole DLM EV thing, as soon as I got close to people who were close to M, I was spooked no end by how utterly weird they were ; hardly a regular guy or gal amongst them. But as I said before, I don't post here to tear down people, those in question do a pretty good job for themselves. There's so much I'd like to say here, who knows where all those feelings came from; even at Nottm fest where I went along after reading the postings here and EPO, and hearing for myself how ruthless M can be....'if you don't like it, WALK!!...' re his critics, still by the end of the event, those familiar feelings started to take over. I recently came across some music by a Moroccan musician on a CD called (would you believe) 'The Cactus of Knowledge'(!) In the liner notes there is a translation of an arabic poem which ends; The sparkling Has moved towards me away from the pillar and the approaching rays have surrounded me, coming closer filling my mouth with the sweet taste of rosewater My whole being is shaken and I have tasted a pleasure such as I have never experienced with any woman But to be united with the light in such incandescence my heart has had to be torn asunder. Such verse exists, certainly in the cultures of the near east and asia; particularly among the ecstatic sufis such as Rumi, who I have always found is able to shift my perspective greatly. Again, as I have said before here, the great agony is having tasted such an experience, believing with every shred of your consciousness that M is the eternal giver of that experience, and then discovering something of the nature of his own everyday life; the way he treats people around him, and less savoury personal habits. For every body involved here there are choices..... Either you believe that such experiences come from M and only M, or even if they DO come from othere sources, you don't really care, because you have found your precious Guru Maharaji, your 'Love of all the Ages', and have put a moral exclusion zone around his activities behind the scenes, and carry on regardless, believing all the EPO stuff to be some kind of test of faith; or.... you are unable to disassociate M's words from his deeds, and reel in shock, unable to separate what you have FELT, from your sense of human incomprehension and anger at what has reportedly gone on for years. or... if you never experienced the taste of those states of 'divine rapture', possibly coming along in K-LITE days,( and can thus be dispassionate enough to rationalise more easily), and after having done a bit of research , put it down to a close brush with a hindu cult that used meditation techniques to put you into a very malleable and impressionable head space where you believed just about anything that is placed before you without question, woke up, smelt the coffee and quit. So how am I dealing with it? probably a continually swinging pendulum that intersects something of the above scenarios and more besides. When I feel mentally week and exhausted, I try to sit and meditate in the still hours of the night; not neccesarily on the techniques, but to pray to whoever IS my creator, the eternal spirit, to bring me some clarity and peace. Take care, AV

Subject: Re: The big Q. From: Sulla To: Bris Date Posted: Fri, Jun 28, 2002 at 07:55:35 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: My dear don't get discouraged, the good stuff comes from you, the bad comes from him. Cry,laugh and smile.The best for you.

Subject: The Unanswerable Q From: Gregg To: Bris Date Posted: Fri, Jun 28, 2002 at 07:22:38 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Those feeling were real. Whether they came from God, brain chemistry or Guru Maharaj Ji is open to question, though. I'd vote for God and brain chemistry, myself. I think some gurus can nudge a student toward richer spiritual experience, but to be such a guru takes a lot of training, practice and skill. I see no evidence that Prem Pal knows anything about meditation, let alone has developed the ability to deliver shaktipat to the masses. He sits on his throne, having been installed there by family connections, and delivers platitudes. On the other hand, it makes perfect sense that if one were to believe that that throne-dweller were actually a magical being symbiotically related to God and personally responsible for your state of mind, than one would probably have some pretty intense experiences of bliss somewhere along the line. I don't disbelieve in the efficacy of teachers in the process of spiritual awakening (although a frightful percentage of self-declared gurus are fraudulent and dangerous), but I see no evidence that Prem Pal has any valid claims to greatness. It is self-debasing to believe that we are too spiritually bankrupt to pass judgement on gurus. That belief is what empowers these creeps. Many of had these experiences, B, and we all have different explanations for them. Unless you have a sense of reality at odds with the facts, though, the explanations must have a lot more to do with belief in M than with M as a source of spiritual power.

Subject: I don't think it's so unanswerable From: Jerry To: Gregg Date Posted: Sat, Jun 29, 2002 at 08:29:59 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'm sorry, Greg, but you seem to be holding onto the idea that there are actually spiritual teachers that genuinely have the ability to give this 'shaktiput' to their disciples. Yet, you argue that the 'shaktiput' Maharaji's disciples receive is all delusional. I don't know how you would distinguish genuine 'shaktiput' from the delusional brand. To me, it's all delusional.

Subject: Re: The Unanswerable Q From: Thorin To: Gregg Date Posted: Fri, Jun 28, 2002 at 08:08:59 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hey Gregg I need a Guru in writing skills. Whoever taught you, taught you well. Name? Thanks for that great post. Thorin

Subject: Writing...(OT) From: Gregg To: Thorin Date Posted: Fri, Jun 28, 2002 at 19:36:59 (PDT) Email Address: binduesque@yahoo.com Message: Thank you so much, Thorin. Much of the reason I post here is to polish my writing skills. That might sound funny...but, most of us ordinary people don't have an audience for our writing, so the Internet is a great outlet.Thisplacedprovidesa quick and easy and savvy audience for me. I'm an English teacher for Denver Public Schools, so writing and teaching writing (and literature) is what I do for a living. Still, most of what I've learned about writing I've learned the same way I've learned jazz piano: by listening and practicing. This summer I've been taking a class called 'Rhetoric and the Teaching of Writing' and it's a blast...the first time I've taken a real college class in twenty years...I've really been revamping my ideas about teaching. Anyway, thank you so much for the positive feedback...email me with your story, if you have the time.

Subject: Try this(OT) From: The Falcon To: Gregg Date Posted: Sat, Jun 29, 2002 at 02:36:40 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The rhetoric of fiction by Wayne C. Booth (Penguin Books) all the best

Subject: Thanks! I will. (nt) From: Gregg To: The Falcon Date Posted: Sun, Jun 30, 2002 at 07:49:18 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: x

Subject: Re: The big Q. From: Peter R. To: Bris Date Posted: Fri, Jun 28, 2002 at 05:40:55 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Bris, I have been closely working on that one for months. I'm pretty certain that most posters on this Forum would say that all the good experiences came from inside ourselves, and were projected onto Maharaji. This is because we are from a culture where our spiritual models have more or less always been stainless, or perceived to be. It's very confronting to imagine that someone of amoral behaviour, or what we would see as this, might be able to impart a spiritual experience, as it breaks the accepted rules. However, in view of my own experiences, and the genuinely great power I perceive Maharaji to have had in the past, I believe this to be the case. It challenges very greatly the truth of him being Lord of the Universe, however, and generally knocks this into a cocked hat. I think we have to revise our assessment of him downwards to be an extremely flawed teacher, along with many others, but one who can give us a genuine insight into the soul. Needless to say, that would make him answerable for any breaches of the law he had committed.

Subject: Re: The big Q. From: Bolly To: Peter R. Date Posted: Sat, Jun 29, 2002 at 14:25:27 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Peter R, What the range of responses and insights on this forum demonstrates is that all of us as human beings have something to share that can help others through difficult times. You say you percieved him to have great power, okay how did it manifest? When in your vicinity did he perform a selfless act in order to benefit another human being? I was reminiscing in an earlier thread with another foot soldier from WPC Regiment. When I reflected on those days it struck me how very talented skilled and thorough a lot of those people were. Marj would express a whim and hey presto the toys appeared. What Marj never saw was was the hours of dedication and application. What Marj never experienced was the wrangling with an idea, the frustration and setbacks of the creative process. All Marj got was the dubious pleasure of sitting on his arse with that aloof look on his chops we all assumed to be immersion in holi monicker ( no pun intended) Then he went of to count the dosh. Love is a shared thing it comes with a lot of aspects. I love my children (well most of the time) but I wouldn't be much use to them were I to demonstrate that by sitting on a throne with some bored expression on my face. Love is a word used a lot in our culture and covers a multitude of sins. In the past few weeks loving football has been very popular next week it's still the tennis for people who love sport. Well I look at some of the people who love sport, they love watching other people performing in the sports arena. Yea, we loved Marj maybe? Marj loved being the recipient of our attention, always slightly out of reach ( did I mean out to lunch?) The truth is there was no power that didn't come from the GOOD people around him willing to sweat and lose sleep to create the marj ambience. If you have experienced great power it is you, just like when you experience getting drunk feeling low or tired. What happens in your life in your psyche your head is yours alone. Some of it will resonate with the experiences of people around you. Yours being myself Bolly

Subject: Re: The big Q. From: Jerry To: Peter R. Date Posted: Sat, Jun 29, 2002 at 08:46:48 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I think we have to revise our assessment of him downwards to be an extremely flawed teacher, along with many others, but one who can give us a genuine insight into the soul. I would say a genuine insight into the soul includes what our instincts tell us about those experiences. Mine tell me the experience came from within me. If I didn't believe in Maharaji the way I did, they wouldn't have happenned. Do you agree, or do you think that Maharaji can impart an experience to any stranger he may come across who has no idea what people are saying about him? I mean, what do YOUR instincts tell you about your experiences and Maharaji's part in them? I mean your deepest instincts, what you really, really believe is the truth because, ultimately, that's all we've really got to go on.

Subject: Re: The big Q. From: Livia To: Jerry Date Posted: Mon, Jul 01, 2002 at 04:08:12 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: A lot of people received Knowledge, felt absolutely zilch in the Knowledge Session, spent a couple/few months meditating etc, still felt nothing, and walked. Perhaps the experiences we all had as (presumably) people who stuck around for years, were more to do with our own need to feel something due to personal makeup, past experiences etc. Livia

Subject: The good stuff came from you, Bris From: JHB To: Bris Date Posted: Fri, Jun 28, 2002 at 05:28:23 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: All the good feelings were our good feelings. We just allowed ourselves to feel them in the situations Maharaji set up. The feelings of joy experienced by Christians or followers of other Gurus are no different. It's the belief that such joy is possible, or even expected, in these situations that makes it possible. And they said it wasn't a belief system! The stories about Maharaji being a heavy alcohol drinker for many years have been confirmed first hand by Mishler, Dettmers and Donner, and others. They have never been denied by Maharaji or anyone associated with him. Keep on turning those stones over! John.

Subject: JHB: This thread is a great example.. From: la-ex To: JHB Date Posted: Fri, Jun 28, 2002 at 09:27:06 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: of a thread that can really develop into something valuable for EPO. When good questions like this are asked, they produce good, thought-provoking answers, which can stimulate things in premies and exes alike. I think that good stimulating dialogue like this is what is at the heart of the forum, at it's best. And the best of the forum creates a better and more effective EPO site. Stuff like this can: 1-help exes understand their past journey with the maha better.... 2-help new exiters in their journey away from the maha... 3-stimulate thought and doubt in the minds of premie lurkers. I think that premie lurking would increase with more questions like this, because they are real questions that premies probably have, and this is the ONLY place where they can be talked about. Premies might realize that they have more in common with exes than they thought, and might listen, stay awhile, and think a bit more about these things... 4-Do you think some of these great 'Q&A' threads should be under the 'questions' section on the EPO homepage?

Subject: This must-read thread is priceless therapy (NT) From: The Falcon To: JHB Date Posted: Fri, Jun 28, 2002 at 09:05:16 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: **** Best of Forum **** flag From: Jean-Michel To: The Falcon Date Posted: Fri, Jun 28, 2002 at 14:20:14 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: xxx

Subject: A question to premies and exs From: TP To: All Date Posted: Fri, Jun 28, 2002 at 01:43:08 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: How many of you who were premies in the 70s actually applauded what Fakiranand did then? Please be honest.

Subject: No one I knew liked it at all. [nt] From: bill To: TP Date Posted: Sat, Jun 29, 2002 at 07:51:24 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: sorry, but no way From: Livia To: TP Date Posted: Sat, Jun 29, 2002 at 02:38:56 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I remember hearing about it and being totally horrified/mortified. I put it down to Fakiranand losing control and doing something that he thought would please Maharaji but got it horribly wrong. Naively, I never dreamt for a second that he may have been taking orders from above, which has been surmised but nobody knows for sure. We were told at the time that Fakiranad had been sent back to India, and a year later we heard he had gone over to Bal Bhagwan Ji's camp. So it was like: 'no surprises there, then - the guy was obviously a nutter.' So, sorry to disappoint you, whoever you are (who are you?) but, no, I didn't know anyone at the time who thought what Fakiranand did was anything less than totally reprehensible. Livia When

Subject: To Livia and all who answered From: TP To: Livia Date Posted: Sat, Jun 29, 2002 at 05:27:34 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks for all the feedback. I didn't receive Knowledge until sometime after the incident and only heard about it second hand from the premies I knew. Many of the premies thought it funny and that it was Pat Haley's karma. Certainly all your reactions don't mirror the premies I knew at that time. I'm really uncertain about now. It would seem(from the sample here) that most ex-premies did not approve. I only see one premie I know here(Doc) who I personally know give an answer. Anyway, I did start posting on the net a week or so ago on the Life's Great(premie?) forum as True Premie, but now a more honest translatioin of TP would be Thinking Premie. All I will say about myself is that I am originally from England and have lived in Australia long enough ago to have 2 teenage kids. I was due to return on Monday but am trying to reschedule so I can go and see Fakiranand. I am finding the EPO reading fascinating. Oh and Livia, it was an honest question and I believe I have gotten honest answers. I am not disappointed as you seem to infer. The thread above by BriS, The BiqQ is the best satsang I have seen for ages. Regards TP

Subject: To TP From: Livia To: TP Date Posted: Sun, Jun 30, 2002 at 15:27:43 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi TP, OK and sorry! It was just something in the tone of your question that made me think you were implying we were all a bunch of hypocrites or something - my paranoia I guess! Re Fakiranand etc - judging by the responses it looks as if different groups of premies felt different things. I was in the USA with both English and American premies when it happened and everybody I knew was horrified, without exception. Maybe there were some premies who cheered, but I certainly never met them. On the subject of what you call yourself, I remember reading some posts by 'a true premie' over on LG a while back - was that you? I honestly thought he/she was an ex pretending to be a premie in the manner of 'Pauline Premie' or Andrea Erikson. Are you coming back to England to live or for a visit? Welcome, and if you do get to see Fakiranand, don't forget to post here about your experience! Best to you, Livia

Subject: Re: A question to premies and exs From: CD To: TP Date Posted: Fri, Jun 28, 2002 at 21:24:38 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I didn't think what Fakiranand did was right. The people I knew didn't think so either. We definitly thought the guy had gone overboard.

Subject: I saw M get pied From: Marianne To: TP Date Posted: Fri, Jun 28, 2002 at 19:00:15 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I saw Pat Halley pie Maharaji. It seemed a scandalous but harmless stunt. I was around Detroit doing service when Fakiranand tried to kill Pat Halley. I was absolutely astounded. I thought there was something very wrong that Fakiranand would think it was ok to respond like this. But then I filed that incident away and thought about it again when I was leaving the cult behind. I can tell you that the Detroit ashram premies were also very upset and distraught about this event. Marianne

Subject: From 1975 on... From: Cynthia To: TP Date Posted: Fri, Jun 28, 2002 at 18:35:19 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I got to the satsang place around late August 1975. I got hooked in two days. I especially liked that everybody had to take their shoes off at the door. Made great sense to me although it stunk out front in the mudroom. Yewwwww... So a lot about the holy family split up, the Fakiranand thing was watered down. People laughed about it. I never had a clue that Pat Halley was hurt to badly and left for dead. All I know is Fakir. retaliated after Halley pied Maharaji and then (sniggers, and lots of them) they got Fakiranand Ji out of the country Real Fast! As recently as 1997 as I sat around the kitchen table with some Vermont premies the story was still distorted, waved off, and laughed about. It wasn't until I discovered EPO and Halley spoke about what really happened that I knew the truth. I'd bet it was that way for a lot of premies. It was horrendous. But, I didn't know the truth.

Subject: Horrified...... From: PatD To: TP Date Posted: Fri, Jun 28, 2002 at 16:36:59 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ....but I knew it didn't have anything to do with the Lord of the Universe. Not really.

Subject: Re: A question to premies and exs From: Neville To: TP Date Posted: Fri, Jun 28, 2002 at 10:52:30 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I can remember the incident being reported in quite sorrowful tones--the attitude was that F was way out of line. Neville

Subject: Re: A question to premies and exs From: cq To: TP Date Posted: Fri, Jun 28, 2002 at 09:42:41 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Applauding Fakiranand's attack? No, but, in all honesty, I do remember feeling that this guy, Pat Halley, had committed a crime (by pieing the Maha) that would mark him out in history. After all, (as my indoctrinated thinking went at the time) you don't get to humiliate the Living Lord and get off scott free. I guess I somehow tried to justify the ferocity of the attack on Pat Halley by comparing it with awfulness of his 'cosmic crime'. (That was back in the days when I beleived in the concept of karma). Lesson to be learned? I guess that sticking up for what you believe in can sometimes lead to compromising your integrity. How else could any of the old-time premies still be stuck with the Maha's many U-turns over the years?

Subject: Re: A question to premies and exs From: Sulla To: TP Date Posted: Fri, Jun 28, 2002 at 08:34:50 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I never knew about it, if I would have heard about it I probably wouldn't believe it or would think M didn't have anything to do with that and forget it. It was long before I received k ('81),though my brother had received it in '72, plus you wouldn't believe how many stories we heard about M and premies in the USA and India, a lot of them were incredible and changed from mouth to mouth, at the end you might think that the story could be true or not or maybe distorted, they become kind of legends that nobody really beleives or not believes, like talking about ghosts, you like the creepy feeling you get at the moment and then you forget it. We didn't have first hand information, maybe the oficials knew, but they would not talk to us about the more serious stuff anyway. If I would have known from a good source I would leave M out of it, but never applaude what F did, I would feel and know it was wrong and totally contradictory of what I was looking for and the message and image of M. Now of course I know better.

Subject: The Infinity Factor. From: AJW To: TP Date Posted: Fri, Jun 28, 2002 at 03:38:22 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi TP, I was confused when I heard about it. I had mixed feelings. I was a cult fanatic, who believed Rawat was 'Greater than God'. After all- why did he make the Universe if it wasn't to improve on himself? It's the 'Infinity Factor'. Multiply anything by infinity and it all goes wacky. If Rawat is God, then he created the guy who got hit. If you make something, you can do what you like to it. It's disgusting how easy it is to become amoral when serving the Living Lord. Anyway, there was definitely a feeling that anyone who violated the sacred form of the Creator deserved everything they got. And Fakiranand was a hero who demonstrated his devotion and love for the Lord by avenging him. There was a feeling that we should aspire to this level of devotion and surrender. After all, this wasn't a normal situation. Look what they did to Jesus. Well, they'd better not fuck with him this time. Then, on the other hand, there were my natural human feelings of revulsion at such an act of violence. These deeper feelings were in conflict with what my premie self was saying. In the end I fudged the issue, thinking something like, 'Maybe he shouldn't have hit him so hard.' It's a wonderful testament to the human spirit, that no matter how deep into a screwed up cult you go, your natural instincts and morality are still there below the surface, exerting a silent influence against the cult shite gets pumped down your throat. Anth, it was all a dream.

Subject: Re: The Infinity Factor. From: Sulla To: AJW Date Posted: Fri, Jun 28, 2002 at 11:36:55 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yes you are right, that's a dangerous way of thinking but I also recognize it, I would not applaud it because I would sincerely knew M was totally out of it, but maybe I would if I knew that God, the one in charge wanted it that way, I would think every thing was under control, and I might not feel even a little rejection and pain inside, as you may feel when you realize for example that your father who always was a good example for you is doing something veeery bad, or worst if he wants you to join him. But not, I think I might not applaud it, I would feel the same revulsion as you felt, and also appalled, discontent, uncomfortable, sad. It is hard when you find out God values are not as high, and don't meet yours. But what would be the difference between then and now? Would I leave him as I did now, why not? why wouldn't I do it then? Maybe I wouldn't, and end up thinking as you did that he might have hammered him too hard, Ha, Ha, so funny. After 8 months to leave him I'm having flashes in which M's face appears smiling in my head, and I kind of feel good for a micro instant, and rejection and pain after I realize it. Sometimes I have flashes of that infinity factor you are talking about, would you believe? how tricky is our mind, now it's working in his favor, but at least after all I have learned something good out of k, not to pay attention of that kind of mind, not to allow the flea become an elephant. If not I would start believing again that M is God, and that he is above good and bad, and that he can do whatever he wants with his life and mine, that he is out of judgment, that he can break my heart as he wishes, that I have to fight and struggle with myself in not allowing, suppressing and not believing my own feelings, my own discernment, the voice of my own conscience which is the guardian of my own soul, my own self, my sanity. That part God may be asking me for in the day of judgment, if he is around somewhere, and as wise, righteous, just, all loving, merciful, etc., as most of us learned and for whom most of us were waiting for. Any way I got to the conclusion that even under the most remote possibility that he could be God, I wouldn't want to follow him, and he would have to accept it as the right thing to do, a kind of a time of judgment in which we all pass the test. How bizarre, but these things pass through my mind, but even though sometimes it's not that easy, it's possible to get rid of M nightmare most of the time. ______________________________________________________________________ Anth, I was missing your posts wondering what might have happened to you.Then I learned about your mother, I'm sorry, I'm sure she was happy to have you and her loved ones close to her. Sulla

Subject: Re: The Infinity Factor. From: AV To: AJW Date Posted: Fri, Jun 28, 2002 at 04:18:03 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I remeber a wpc guy interviewed on us tv at the time was asked what he would do / have done to the / any culprit who would assault M with a pie, he said 'I'd slit his throat'.....

Subject: I know the guy AV. From: AJW To: AV Date Posted: Fri, Jun 28, 2002 at 09:43:59 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: He's in the Lord of the Universe movie. (Have you seen it? There are a few copies knocking around somewhere on video.) Anyway, last I saw of him was about 15 years ago, in South London. He used to practice acapuncture. I don't know if he's still in the cult. Peter's still into inserting bits of metal into people 'tho. Anth Ying Yang Thank you Ma'am

Subject: Re: A question to premies and exs From: Thorin To: TP Date Posted: Fri, Jun 28, 2002 at 03:23:02 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: When I first heard about this incident (sometime in 1973 I think) it was much discussed and the overwhelming feeling that it was simply atrocious. However facts were very much thin on the ground then and we could only speculate on what really happened. Like good premies we felt great sorrow that Maharaji had to put up with such a creep and that F had every thing coming to him. Had we known then, as we do now, that there was an organised and well executed plan of sheilding and getting F out of USA by top honchos of DLM (and possibly including M and RJ, which I guess we will never know) then I am sure that many premies would have woken up and left in droves then. This incident, like many others, stinks and I hope that more people in the know will find the courage to speak up and tell the world what they know. Even those people that were directly implicated in the cover up should have no fears as the statute of limitations has long since passed. I guess some premies may have appluaded what Fakiranand did to Halley, I never met any and I am glad I did not meet any. Thorin

Subject: Thorin, really sorry From: Jethro To: Thorin Date Posted: Sat, Jun 29, 2002 at 07:32:02 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: to disappoint you, but I was one of those who applauded Fakiranand. I was not a premie at the time but heard about it in 1974 when I got poked in the eyes. For what it's worth I wasn't in a minority of the premies I was with. Maharaji was presented to me as God-incarnate, the Father coming to stop His children getting burnt..etc. Yes I believed it all and would have done absolutely anything for him. Whatever else maharaji may be, he isn't a Charles Manson. If he was I know that myself and many others would have done unspeakable things and would either be dead or in prison today. I am not proud of that but that is the way it was. Jethro

Subject: Re: Thorin, really sorry From: Thorin To: Jethro Date Posted: Sat, Jun 29, 2002 at 08:00:37 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks Jethro Oh well, guess I led a pretty sheltered life. Cheers, T

Subject: I was utterly appalled (NT) From: The Falcon To: TP Date Posted: Fri, Jun 28, 2002 at 02:32:48 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: A question to premies and exs From: DevoteeDoc To: TP Date Posted: Fri, Jun 28, 2002 at 02:16:19 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Well at the time I was a high rise gormless dreamer thinking I was swiftly climbing the ladder to heaven. So God only knows how I would have reacted to something like that in front of me in the real world. I was very shocked on hearing about it. It seemed very excessive to me. However, my WPC supervisors, knowing they had a space cadet on their hands, kept me as far away from the real action as possible, right at the back of the Millenium Astrodome doing twelve hour 'security' shifts in the miles of bare, sterile concrete corridors. Once I bumped into Raja Ji who looked at me with a 'What the fuck are you doing here' glare, which greatly added to the paranoia and insecurity I was experiencing due to to almost total lack of sleep and having to live in a coca cola factory segregated from the girls while my girl was somewhere else partying and flirting with every stray guy she could eyeball. Ah yes, that festival was all love and roses for me! But at least I got to play some guitar in a band they set up in the Coke factory, we'd jam well into the night after the big gig. On reflection...how come we were allowed to do that??!!! Blissful mayhem, god only knows how we survived it.

Subject: Re: A question to premies and exs From: Bolly To: DevoteeDoc Date Posted: Fri, Jun 28, 2002 at 15:50:04 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Devotee Doc You must have been a lot more aware of what was going on than I was. I don't remember anything specific about it only that there was an incident. The honchos liked to think they were the divine wing of the SAS Us WPC foot soldiers were all encouraged to obey orders unquestioningly. Given that we were enabling the establishment of peace on earth and rarely slept I doubt any of us would have made a rational assesment of events at the time. I remember some people getting up a band sorry don't remember what it was like. Were you still marching on for truth when Raja had his birthday bash at the Cafe Royale? You were allowed to play into the night because they got to the page in the soldiering manual that said after a big action the troops have to be allowed rest and recreation to avert the likelihood shell shock and battle fatigue. It was a war you know. Or maybe it wasn't. Just a bunch of nutters playing soldiers. Love Bolly

Subject: Ah, a fellow veteran! From: Doc To: Bolly Date Posted: Fri, Jun 28, 2002 at 21:08:31 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I presume that you were a UK based soldier and joined us on that fabled 'excersise' on the Kent moors complete with battle fatigues and all :) I don't know anything about the cafe Royale but we had a few get togethers with RJ at Reigate where he acquited himself with much humility and deference to the big M. Yes, probably right about the band being able to 'blow off ' a bit into the night, it gave us the illusion of freedom and free thought. That period must have been a spiritual training for me because no sooner had the festival ended when a Houston based uncle of my girlfriend offered her a ticket back to NZ for $40 (he worked for PanAm) which she couldn't refuse. We tried to get me one but it was a family only deal. So...having lost her emotionally I was now set to lose her physically as well and returned to UK minus one gf. Looking back, I guess that's when I first dug deep for the treasure within and found it, much to my eternal gratitude and wonder. I guess it takes a serious jolt to really get the internal digging machine operating at full capacity. Or maybe I was just a thicko who needed a good thwack to wake me up. ;)

Subject: Re: Ah, a fellow veteran! From: Bolly To: Doc Date Posted: Sat, Jun 29, 2002 at 02:37:40 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi! We must don the old uniforms sometime and take to the downs at dawn, in commemoration of a fine job done. I assume you went training at dawn running across the downs having been woken by Robbie Willox with a torch shone into your face. The Cafe Royale bash took place after the honchos, Lindus Burgess et al had moved to Westerham in Kent. Reigate then passed from being Raja's retreat for his beloved brother to being the official res. Were you there when there were aprox 150 good soldiers in residence after the service houses closed (not to save money I assure you but for Security reasons). One night as we sang arti around the trestle tables prior to enjoying a magnificent supper of cheese and potato pie the door to the cellar come dining room opened. We were on that line about save us from the ocean deep and Gwilym who was posted in the gatehouse come garden shed entered escorting two good ladies of the parish with collecting tins for the Lifeboat volunteers. The women looked at us around our white sheet bedecked trestle tables and shook their tins half heartedly, I think our treasurer Paul Burgess gave them a farthing or two. Gwilym I think was court marshalled for comprimising security. The neighbors who already thought we were a bit strange probably thought we were in a cult. It's a tough job being a soldier but someone has to do it. Salutes and polish those boots yours Bolly

Subject: Re: Ah, a fellow veteran! From: Corporal CleggDoc To: Bolly Date Posted: Sat, Jun 29, 2002 at 06:01:42 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: We won't woken too harshly. Mark Halliday trooped around the house at Catford at 6.30 saying Arti! Arti! Clive Holmes would smile gently and mutter ...'here we go again.' It was insane but I was quite glad to be doing anything to get out of England and away from mummy ringing up wanting to know what on earth I was doing living down in the dumps at Catford (a lower class suburb at best) with all these guru people. Fortunately she sent me a Barclaycard, so Mark insisted we all go and buy suits and new house plants which - me being 'surrendered' we immediately did. No, I never was at Reigate with 150 bods. Your story was hilarious! I used to work on his Majesty's bedroom and remember taking the beautiful blue velvet bedspread to the dry cleaner in town who was always wide eyed at the commands being given to him concerning the handling of the sacred garment. Of course we were longing to tell him...This is the Lord's bedspread so you better be careful! Gee, can you imagine a book full of anecdotes of those days? Man, don't ask me about my 'propagation' trip to Iceland with Dougie Little and gorgeous Carol from the Edinbugh ashram. What a farce that was ...thanks to Bulent Acar of Shri Hans travel who conveniently forgot to find out what we required to be let into the freezing place (in the way of cash and work permits etc). We were in a cult alright, but it was the Dad's Army of all cults! :)

Subject: Re: Ah, a fellow veteran! From: Bolly To: Corporal CleggDoc Date Posted: Sat, Jun 29, 2002 at 06:48:22 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: So glad to hear the barracks was kept in shape by the regiments lads after my departure. Dads army is right, it truly went from the sublime to the ridiculous. I was conscripted initially to skivvy for the electronic boys I think marje had seen lots of James Bond movies and thought we needed an MI5 wing. It materialised more like MFI, only not so usefull. Will post more anecdotes on my next leave. At ease lads Love Bolly Ps. I see Mark Halliday sometimes, he still goes to programmes. More on that some other time.

Subject: You gotta be kidding me! From: ExciteDoc To: Bolly Date Posted: Sun, Jun 30, 2002 at 03:54:56 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You see Mark Halliday ?/ Holy Christus!! :) :) :) :) :) ;0 Hey Bol, next time you're on duty could you contact the signals platoon and put in an urgent request to the duty signals officer..... Lt Gen DocRoup wants Lance Corporal Field Marshall Baron Von Halliday VC DSO CB to send an immediate despatch as to his station, mission and date of next leave. Thank you Sir! :(

Subject: Mahatma Fakiranand now in London From: Sir Dave To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 27, 2002 at 12:15:29 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Well you could have knocked me down with a feather. I read an advert today in the magazine called ''The Big Issue'' telling me that old Fakiranand is doing a programme in London very soon. The advert reads as follows: SPIRITUAL DISCOURSE Mahatma Ji Fakiranand of Northern India and disciple of H.H Shri Satpal Ji Maharaj Speaks for one day on Sunday 7th July at The Tabernacle Powis Square, London W11 From 4.30-6pm All Welcome - FREE Tel: 0116 220 7615 Now I like to help good causes so I've given him a little free advertising here. All DIY enthusiasts should go but please wear a crash helmet.

Subject: hammering his message home [nt] From: Livia To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Sat, Jun 29, 2002 at 02:50:04 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: anyone up for interpol? From: janet To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Fri, Jun 28, 2002 at 03:16:28 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: seems to me maybe we could orchestrate some kind of belated arrest for attempted murder in detroit if you got the articles to the police or scotland yard in advance of the program. have him arrested and charged belatedly. maybe extradited to detroit to stand trial for attempted murder on patrick halley? the statute of limitations never runs out on outright successdul murder. i dont know about attempted murder. and country by country, i don't know those differences either. Jim? Marianne? you guys deal in north american law about murder all the time. what's chances of getting some justice on this case, so many years later? conversation would be better off the board, rather than where the EV monitors can read and report back about it is probably better. use the back channels. sir dave knows what i mean.

Subject: It may not be the same person From: TP To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Fri, Jun 28, 2002 at 01:45:32 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: There were at least 4 offshoots from Swami Sarupanand and all of them used the same Mahatma names as Sarupanand Ji did. TP

Subject: Re: It may not be the same person From: The Falcon To: TP Date Posted: Fri, Jun 28, 2002 at 02:36:46 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: This is definitely the same Fakiranand who tried to kill Pat Halley. He was with Satpal in Leicester a few weeks ago. And USA last year. He is the foremost mahatma in Manav Dharm now and probably one of the longest serving. Knowledge review, anyone?? No, thought not!

Subject: Please DO let us know about US dates !! [nt] From: bill To: The Falcon Date Posted: Sat, Jun 29, 2002 at 07:53:28 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Thanks for that info, From: TP To: The Falcon Date Posted: Fri, Jun 28, 2002 at 09:49:06 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I think I'll try and extend my stay here to go see him. TP

Subject: background: for the uninitiated From: anon To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 27, 2002 at 20:56:35 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: r.e. Mahatma Fakiranand: translation of name: Mahatma = Great Soul, Fakiranand = Blissful Beggar Read the facts about this devoted entity and his close ties with both the rival Rawat gurus [sic self-proclaimed 'masters'] A 'great soul?' Well, at least according to the 2 rival Godfathers of the family, anyway - for whom he has performed unique 'service' [sic participation] Read about the special, synchronised participation and service this Great Soul has performed: http://www.ex-premie.org/best/pathalley3.htm http://www.ex-premie.org/best/pathalley3.htm www.ex-premie.org/best/pathalley3.htm

Subject: He must be a fossil by now From: Brian Smith To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 27, 2002 at 20:01:33 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: He must be in his late 70's, he should be introduced to the tune of "If I had a Hammer" by Peter, Paul and Mary also Trini Lopez 'If I had a hammer' 'I'd hammer in the morning' 'I'd hammer in the evening' 'All over this land' etc,etc, etc somethings never change

Subject: please announce any US dates. [nt] From: bill To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 27, 2002 at 14:11:24 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: especially in Detroit [nt] From: Will To: bill Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 27, 2002 at 14:36:23 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: Mahatma Fakiranand From: Richard To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 27, 2002 at 12:32:53 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It makes complete sense to me. Satpal is following his dad's example to the letter so Mahatma F would naturally take to it like a swan to lotus pond. I would love to hear what Fakiranand has to say about his former SatGuru. Whatever it is would instantly be ***Best Of Forum***. After all, he is an Ex of M isn't he? Hmmm, I like the idea of getting his comments. Anyone that side of the pond up for a little chat with him? Hey Dave, why not invite the Beggar of Whomever's Bliss out for a pint? Then you could both get hammered together!!! (Note to Non-Yanks: Hammered = Drunk = Pissed in Americanese) BTW, does H.H. stand for His Holiness, Hilarious Hustle, Hiatal Hernia or what? Richard, beggar of humor

Subject: H.H. = Holy Hammerer [nt] From: Barbara To: Richard Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 27, 2002 at 18:40:21 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: Mahatma Fakiranand From: PatD To: Richard Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 27, 2002 at 13:19:57 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Wow,what a high octane spiritual guy.He's managed to reincarnate himself in his own lifetime.Go for it Fakiranand,you're back to square one with the brothers Rawat...next step Chelsea town hall..Alexandra Palace...il Pallazzo delle Sporte...the world's your oyster 2nd time round. Yes Richard,laughing is the only antidote.

Subject: Oh no... From: BriS To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 27, 2002 at 09:48:44 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Please humour me while I get this off my chest - it's only a small matter to you readers, but this is freaking me out... I've been sifting through all the old posts here, and I've found several references to collection bins, sacks etc in darshan lines, from which much moolah was garnered. I've been in several darshan lines, and I never saw anything like that. You mean I was supposed to give money as I passed down the line? I NEVER KNEW THAT. Why did nobody tell me? This is so embarassing - I know I'm a bit slow, but this is too much. Ok, so I never had any money anyway, but now I've missed some golden opportunities to shower myself with guilt. What else have I missed? BriS

Subject: it's true From: Livia To: BriS Date Posted: Sat, Jun 29, 2002 at 02:53:54 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Definitely true. Don't remember that they were as unsubtle as to actually wave collection bins under your nose, but there was a place before you went into the tunnel where you were obviously supposed to put envelopes containing money. The reason given was that people were giving stuff like toys, old valued possessions, fruit, whatever, and it was all piling up and they didn't know what to do with it. So money was deemed to be a lot more practical. Hmmm. Livia

Subject: Welcome aboard, and.... From: Bryn To: BriS Date Posted: Fri, Jun 28, 2002 at 01:58:23 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Check your emails for one from me.

Subject: The Lord Prefers Cash. From: AJW To: BriS Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 27, 2002 at 09:55:47 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: BriS, How long is it since you went through a darshan line? In the 70s, people used to bring all sorts of gifts, as they queued up to slobber on the lostus feet. But things changed, and it became known that 'The Lord prefers cash.' After this, hoards of instructors, initiators, or whatever they were called at the time, would offer handfuls of envelopes to people in the queue. Then, just before entering the Holy Darshan Room to kiss the feet, you handed over the envelope, now containing some of your cash, to another instructigator, who would usually drop it into a large box where it would be taken away to do the Lord's work. Because, as we all know Bris, it is in giving that we receive. Anth, can I have my money back please?

Subject: Re: The Lord Prefers Cash. From: BriS To: AJW Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 27, 2002 at 10:08:48 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Well, this has certainly opened my eyes. It's a very long time since I walked the line - Rome or Wembley in the mid '70s I think. Nobody offered me an envelope or suggested an offering would be in order. Nobody shouted 'Hey you! - You in the suit with silly grin - chuck some dosh in the bin or no Holy Breath for you, young man.' I leave you a sadder, but wiser man. BriS

Subject: I wouldn't go quite that far, BriS From: Livia To: BriS Date Posted: Sat, Jun 29, 2002 at 02:59:12 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I wouldn't go quite that far, BriS. It's true that you were handed envelopes etc, but if you didn't have any money to give, or didn't want to give any money, it was fine; nobody pressured you. It certainly wasn't like you weren't allowed down the darshan tunnel or anything like that - you weren't treated any differently at all, or certainly not as far as I could see. Just to put the record straight. Love, Livia

Subject: Not only sadder and wiser BriS From: AJW To: BriS Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 27, 2002 at 10:18:23 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Not only sadder and wiser, but also richer. I hate to think how many twenty quid notes I slipped into those envelopes, while we were trying to bring up two kids on a shoestring. Anth, happier, wiser, and much better off nowadays too.

Subject: Re: Not only sadder and wiser BriS From: anon To: AJW Date Posted: Sat, Jun 29, 2002 at 09:33:38 (PDT) Email Address: swanley@hotmail.com Message: Hi ajw I know you from another time. I would prefer to remaim anon, if that,s all right. What has happened to the lord, He has definately gonr into regression. Am i freaked, or am I freaked What does one do in this situation The idea of a fr4ee country does not exist for him any more, He should definately be stopped alltogether, as he is highly dangerous. If i new the meaning of it all it would help a little.......Plese reply........anon

Subject: Twenty quid notes From: PatD To: AJW Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 27, 2002 at 12:30:17 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I burned a lot of those too in the cause of 'supporting His work'. Hey BriS,you must've been one of those blissheads who went through darshan with their eyes shut. After it'd been abolished didn't you ever notice the large white cardboard boxes set up near the info.desks....the ones with the large slit in the top marked 'donations'. They took fifties very nicely indeed.I could do with a few of them now.In my mind's eye I can still see them,that beautiful reddish orange glow with the broad silver stripe elegantly offset.

Subject: Sugar pills From: Marshall To: PatD Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 27, 2002 at 13:13:20 (PDT) Email Address: none Message: It would be kind of a thrill wouldn't it? Having a bunch of trippers lining up to swoon at your feet, and leave some cash on the way. All the while knowing that it's just an empty farce. Sugar pills. Sounds like fun, in a dark way. You couldn't have a strong concience though, to go through with it I imagine, just a strong sense of greed, and no empathy.

Subject: Re: Sugar pills From: PatD To: Marshall Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 27, 2002 at 13:40:21 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I think it's a mutual delusion. The guy was brought up to believe he was worthy of everything going since the age of 8. In that context conscience can't exist.Still,he's older than that now but no wiser,except in his own self interest.

Subject: Now his ego is just so massive From: hamzen To: PatD Date Posted: Fri, Jun 28, 2002 at 01:55:53 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: that even when he knows it all a fraud he can still justify it. I mean he's got away with it for thirty years, it's a pretty good con, and there are still a few people who think any meaningful experiences come because of that connection with his grace.

Subject: A stinking drip From: Livia To: hamzen Date Posted: Sat, Jun 29, 2002 at 03:03:50 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: A big drip for me was the last programme I went to in about 1996, in London. I noticed all the rich premies taking their usual places up at the front - a particular multi-millionaire sticks in my mind. And then you think about the 'widow's mite' story from the Bible. Who knows if the story is true or not, but the sentiment was beautiful - that if you're poor and only have a few pennies to give, that that means as much to the Lord as a rich person giving loads. Hard not to reflect that that idea never seemed to cut much ice with Maharaji. If you had lots of money and gave it, it didn't matter what kind of devotee you were - that place up at the front was guaranteed. Even if you gave lots and still kept lots back for yourself. If you had little, gave a little but which was a lot for you - sorry, no place up at the front for you. The implication there being - well if you can't give a lot then go and get yourself a better paid job so you can give a lot - otherwise it's the back of the hall for you! It stunk, it stinks and it always will stink. Livia

Subject: Subtle tricks of the mind From: Thorin To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 27, 2002 at 06:54:55 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: There is a great debate going on at LG and would recommend reading it. In the spirit of transparency and fairness I won't interject with my own comments and opinions. Click here .... www.hotboards.com/plus/plus.mirage?who=premieforum&id=15800.410943487258

Subject: Re: Subtle tricks of the mind From: Neville To: Thorin Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 27, 2002 at 17:53:07 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Subtle tricks of the mind...e.g. when you experience perfectly normal, random events and start attributing them to the law of karma. Neville, who knows his basic Carl Popper

Subject: Re: Subtle tricks of the mindless From: Marshall To: Thorin Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 27, 2002 at 11:49:05 (PDT) Email Address: none Message: Thanks for the link, Thorin. I think Will makes some very wise comments. Deborah is as angry, belligerent, and confus-ed/ing as ever. Roupell is predictably repellant. Very entertaining.

Subject: Re: Subtle tricks of the mindless From: Cynthia To: Marshall Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 27, 2002 at 12:16:26 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Marshall, How are you? Sometimes people try to be so smart but they are so ignorant. I read a bit of that thread and noticed the reference to the Beatniks. Well, the original beatniks were in SF long before the 70s actually the 50s. LOL on you know who 'D.' So, I guess I have to tell my beloved hubby, who loves the beats that he's 'stuck in the 50s!' Most of the beats were from my parents generation! Philip Whalen, a beatnik, died yesterday. October 2, 1923 - June 26, 2002. See link above for more beat stuff. Love, Cynthia The Beats www.jackmagazine.com/beatnews/

Subject: care to comment, esp the atheists? From: janet To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 27, 2002 at 03:06:52 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: this is running in todays MSNBC headlines: US 9th Circuit Court of Appeals rules that the US Pledge of Allegiance is Unconstitutional, so long as it requires the recitation of the clause 'One nation Under God' speaking for myself, I'm glad to see this. A cursory reading of the Bill of Rights will stop anyone in their tracks at the First Amendment, as soon as they see how clearly it states that Congress is forbidden from making any law with respect to an establishment of religion. Arguments have raged, down thru the centuries, about the meaning of the archaically phrased english, vying back and forth as to whether the writers were referring to 'established religions' or whether they were meaning that the State must not establish a religion, or whether they meant that the state must keep well away from making laws that involved themselves in religion at all . Myself, I would take the safe course and act as though the wording was meant to mean all three, and confine congress accordingly. I had a personal crisis with regard to reciting the Pledge in class in my senior year in High School. It was 1970, we were still deeply invlved in viet nam, dissent was rampant across the US and very ugly things were coming to light repeatedly in the alternative press, and then with time, in the mainstream press, that had pushed me to the point where I could not longer in conscience get up and robotically repeat the words I had been rote taught to repeat with the teacher every morning of my school ife. I was demoralized. I had lost faith in my government. I Had learned to think for myself and I couldnt just go along to get along anymore. And on a hot summer morning, weeks before graduation with honors, I looked about me in homeroom and suddenly realized I couldn go through with it even one more time. And I sat down, mute, while i watched everyone else murmur the words without conviction or mental presence. My sitdown strike got the attention of the teacher. She was consterned and perplexed. She came over and wuietly asked me whay I hadn't stood. I shrugged and let out a dejected sigh of depression. I wasn't flamboyant. I wasn't ooking to get anyone's attention. I just couldn't do it any more. Not knowing what else to do, she sent me to the Principal's office, where I once again sincerely and glumly explained my sudden failure of faith in the lifelong ritual. Luckily, I had a very cool principal. He heard me out genuinely, pondered a moment, and asked me if I could bear to at least stand up silently during the pledge if not recite it with everyone else. I had to consider. Standing up was another form of honoring it, and I didn't feel I stood with those anymore. He asked me if I would do it to keep the peace. I still wasn't sure. He then asked if I had some secret, private vow that I could make in my heart during that time, and if I would agree to stand during that time and use the occasion to make my vows within myself while I stood. That seemed amenable. It gave me something constructive to chew on and sweel on during the minute when everyone else was saying the pledge aloud. And I spoke to my friends about it, and it triggered a number of intelligent and equally troubled and articulate conversations among us in the closing days of our secondary education. But this issue--religion and the congress and the constitution--never came up as a subject among us. I know I could not have conceived of taking the public risk to defy the classroom, the teacher, the principal's office, the school board, and the alienation from all my schoolmates, to ever attempt to go against the grain in younger years. This man who brought the suit is an atheist doctor in San Francisco. He filed it on behalf of his daughter who has just entered school. And while his suit was dismissed in the first court, the appeals courtsnagged it and pulled it back in and said he had a very real case. And they found in his behalf. predictably, Bush and congress knee-jerk condemned the ruling, and promptly sent their lackeys scurrying to try to get this ruling overturned. The ACLU, however , solidly applauds the ruling and stands planted to defend it. The politicos act like the pledge was handed down from God, graven in gold on magical tablets. They are plug ignorant that it was penned as a little filler in a little known family magazine in 1954, and was brought to light at the height of the Cold War, when Godless Communists threatened Our Way Of Life, in the McCarthy era, and that congress seized upon it as a charming little homily to illustrate how cozy and strong we all were, and promoted it until Eisenhower blessed it as official. The words 'under God' were not in the original. They were added later. So memory is short, and understanding is scarce. Freedom is absent, if you inculcate your children from day one in public school to mindlessly recite a pledge to things they do not have a choice to reject, refuse, or take alternative to. I'd like to hear from you atheists on this, as well as everyone else. I hope this is pushed forward and wins to the last. I would personally like to see it taken out of circulation entirely. Pledge ruled unconstitutional www.msnbc.com/news/772714.asp?pne=msntv

Subject: an oxymoron From: anon To: janet Date Posted: Fri, Jun 28, 2002 at 12:25:48 (PDT) Email Address: LBrandeis@dceased.com Message: According to the 9th District Court, the 'under God' phrase in the pledge of allegiance is establishment of religion and therefore unconstitutional, but according to the Republican majority on the U.S. Supreme Court, doling out collective tax money as individual vouchers to support private religious school education is not establishment of religion. Now, that dog don't hunt! [translation: Go figure!]

Subject: The Almighty Flag From: Gregg To: janet Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 27, 2002 at 08:13:47 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Nice story, Janet. I am still called upon occasionally to make the Pledge, although I don't have to make my students say it, and I'm extremely uncomfortable with the whole thing. The 'under God' clause has always struck me as an unconstitutional infringement, and I've never heard the Pledge recited without it. But the whole idea of pledging allegiance to a flag has the whiff of facism about it. Yeah, I know, we're supposedly pledging our allegiance to the ideas of freedom and so forth, but that's not what the Pledge says. There are a lot of things I truly love about this country, especially after having lived abroad for a time, but forcing kids to pledge their hearts and minds to a flag isn't one of them.

Subject: Re: care to comment, esp the atheists? From: Cynthia To: janet Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 27, 2002 at 05:53:16 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hey Janet, I also refused to say the Pledge when I was a senior in high school but no one ever said anything to me about it. I was voted Class Radical so they knew enough to leave me alone. It was in protest of the Vietnam war. Didn't they take the words 'under God' out of the pledge in the late '50s? I vaguely remember the revision. I was no older than 4th grade, so I'm not sure. I don't like the idea of any pledge in schools. It smacks of forced or conditioned patriotism IMO. It's about the children for me. The Congress and Senate have clergymen who say a prayer at the opening of each session. The Supreme Court also has a prayer and says the pledge before Court Sessions. I'm pleased with the ruling but doubt it will stand. I heard a Senator complaining about it on tv yesterday saying that maybe those judges should not accept their pay because 'In God We Trust' is written on the dollar bill. It got me to thinking about having that on our currency. I think the 'In God We Trust' refers to the actual money! I know that's not the intent, but I think that's how things really are and always have been in our country. Our Founding Fathers were not saints. Many were slave owners and were very concerned about preserving their own 'property,' during the debates about wording of the Constitution. Lots and lots of politics went on back then, too. The political pundits already are talking about how this is a good thing for the next presidential election (for Bush) so I kind of wish the courts had left it alone. Plus, the Supreme Court decided our last presidential election, so I don't have must trust in them at all. They'll reverse it, I'm sure. It's too bad, but I think that's what will happen.

Subject: I read somewhere that the 9th Circuit From: Dermot To: janet Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 27, 2002 at 05:10:53 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Court is one of the most liberal and one of the most 'over-ruled' in the US. I'd bet your bottom dollar( always best to bet with other peoples money:) ) that this decision won't stand for long. Heck, Americans trust God so much they tell him so on their money bills:) Nah too many monotheists in the land of milk and honey for such stuff to be tolerated :) Cheers -Dermot

Subject: Under God From: An American To: Dermot Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 27, 2002 at 16:57:54 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The ruling did not declare the entire pledge unconstitutional, only the phrase 'under God.' Congress added those words in 1954 in the height of the dark, sad witch hunts of the McCarthy era. People believed that those words could root out Communists because Communists would refuse to utter them, being that they were godless atheists. Great motivation and very patriotic, right? It was during the same period, the 50s that 'in god we trust' was put on the money also as a stance against godless communism. To see American politicians lining up on the steps of the Capitol to recite the pledge and express their outrage at the court decision is sickening. It's such an easy political lob. You can act patriotic, pontificate about it and it costs nothing, either fiscally or politically. The ninth circuit is the most liberal, but the judge who wrote the opinion was appointed by the conservative republican, Richard Nixon. To hear Bush rant on about judicial appointments is a little hypocritical, seeing as his Dad (Bush I) was head of the Republican party when Nixon was President.

Subject: Hey, that's my beloved court! From: Marianne To: Dermot Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 27, 2002 at 16:05:47 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dermot: The 9th Circuit is the federal appellate court which has thrown out the death sentences and convictions of my clients. I happen to think they are great. The judge who wrote the opinion is actually more on the conservative side. Marianne

Subject: Re: I read somewhere that the 9th Circuit From: Jerry To: Dermot Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 27, 2002 at 13:20:21 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The phrase In God We Trust that you see on American currency came about around the same time the words 'one nation, under God' did in the pledge of allegiance, sometime in the mid 50s. It was America's way of saying we're not like those godless communists. It was part of the Cold War. Before In God We Trust, the motto on American currency was E Pluribus Unum. Don't be surprised if there's a return to that motto. There's talk about printing up new money, this time different colors for different denominations. I wouldn't be surprised if the motto In God We Trust is replaced with the original if enough fuss is raised over it. On the radio today I heard Bush say that it's from God that Americans have their inalienable rights and it's people who understand this that he will appoint as judges. So much for a separation between church and state. Interestingly, it was the clergy that originally recommended such a separation because they figured the church was more qualified in the saving of souls than the government is and didn't want them getting their grubby, secular hands on the church's business.

Subject: Experiencing god directly face to face From: hamzen To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 27, 2002 at 00:41:56 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Links for those of you seeking all the truths available about god experiences, not just beliefs about Links for those of you seeking all the truths available about god experiences, not just beliefs about Wanna meet god face to face without any intermediaries such as gurus etc? It's all in the brain, I'm sure those of you who wanna believe in god will say he put these brain connections in place This one is a fine tuned personal account using the persinger concept http://www.innerworlds.50megs.com/neuromag.htm Wanna meet aliens? http://ufos.about.com/library/weekly/aa041299.htm http://www.singmind.com/singleminded/favorite/orthodox.htm persinger magnetic helmet searched for in google produced 145 responses persinger home page in google produced more science based links but can't find his home page yet As you'll see Michael Persinger is the fella that has been doing this research for years on neurotheology and for nede's and rebirth http://www.innerworlds.50megs.com/rebirth.htm

Subject: Earth calling Hamzen. From: AJW To: hamzen Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 27, 2002 at 10:16:15 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hamzen, Don't you think it's time you got yourself a nice, healthy hobby, or took up a sport, or pastime or something. All this involvement with the persinger concept, and trying to meet aliens in your magnetic helmet is going to end in tears. You mark my words. Fishing is quite fun this time of year. Anth the cheese and pickle butty.

Subject: You're nothing but a cold hearted killer From: hamzen To: AJW Date Posted: Fri, Jun 28, 2002 at 02:03:30 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Fishing huh, you murderer. Heh you up in london on the 13th July. The RU are running a sound system marquee at a local community festival 12-5. Lets get you grooving a bit and get some of that excess off yer waist!

Subject: 13th July. From: AJW To: hamzen Date Posted: Fri, Jun 28, 2002 at 03:14:16 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Which year are we talking about here Ham'? I never knew you were into Rugby Union. Anth, and what year is it now?

Subject: Macropsia From: Gregg To: hamzen Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 27, 2002 at 08:27:58 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Interesting link, Hamzen. Not my cup of chai, but I did learn one thing...about macropsia, the illusion that things are much larger and much further away than usual. I used to get this at night, as a kid, quite a bit, and I thought I was the only one. It's very very strange, and not a little scary. Turning on the lights usually made it go away. I've had it a few times as an adult, too. Now it's more cool than scary.

Subject: Re: Macropsia From: AV To: Gregg Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 27, 2002 at 11:39:31 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: shit, I used to get that too,(when about 6 or 7), had forgotten all about it...

Subject: Re: Macropsia From: AJW To: Gregg Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 27, 2002 at 10:21:21 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Gregg, Of course things are further away than before. The Universe is constantly expanding. This is a scientific fact. I personally have grown several feet in my lifetime. Also, soft drinks at the cinema are much larger than they were in the 50s. The evidence speaks for itself. Anth, expanding in all directions.

Subject: Re: Macropsia From: Neville To: AJW Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 27, 2002 at 17:49:01 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I still get macropsia now and then and I like it best when it affects...well...a certain bit of me...you know... Neville, who needs all the relief from envy he can get

Subject: Re: Macropsia From: AJW To: Neville Date Posted: Fri, Jun 28, 2002 at 03:17:11 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Neville, I remember getting it as a kid when I went to bed. I used to love it, and try and repeat the experience the next night. I'd remember what I'd eaten before I went to bed and eat the same thing. It never worked. I didn't know it had a name until I read this thread. Anth, a natural born tripper.

Subject: Re: Macropsia - michelin man? From: Livia To: AJW Date Posted: Sat, Jun 29, 2002 at 03:21:51 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I used to have this experience when I was a kid where I felt as if my head and sometimes my whole body were expanding. I called it the 'michelin man'. Do you all mean this? I got it again when I started meditating. Livia

Subject: to LIv From: AV To: Livia Date Posted: Sat, Jun 29, 2002 at 09:41:37 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: No Liv, you really WERE expanding!!! it's called flatulence!!! AV, who eat too many chickpeas. (((((x)))))) :) ps did you see Glastonbury 71 on Beeb 2?

Subject: Re: to AV From: Livia To: AV Date Posted: Sun, Jun 30, 2002 at 15:42:36 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: LOL, AV. Hi to you, and yes I did see Glastonbury the other night, or at least some of it and have taped the rest, to watch later in the week. Posted some reflections along with all the others up above. Did you see it? What did you think? Must hit the sack now Lots of love, Liv

Subject: my alter ego, David A. is SO far out.... From: Andy Daverdson To: All Date Posted: Wed, Jun 26, 2002 at 14:27:47 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Just look over on life's great and David Anderson will continue to amaze you.... Amongst other thngs, David now tells us that there is 'great interest' in m and k in the world these days, only it's not a 'group thing', but it's totally 'personal, on an 'individual basis'.. (I'm not sure how David knows this, but he continues..) He also assures us that the world can change 'one person at at time' through the 'powerful tool' of K. And he proclaims that m has 'grown up' and has now figured out what works and doesn't work....in fact, it's totally different than just a year or two ago... I wonder how David A. knows all of this, and I wonder why the cult numbers are dwindling, donations drying up, and people are reassessing and leaving or stepping back more than ever before... (I think David A. should cut off that 2 foot gray pony tail, leave the 1970's behind, and join the real world.... Hmmm...wonder what Andrea E. thinks...)

Subject: Old friends From: BriS To: All Date Posted: Wed, Jun 26, 2002 at 07:11:40 (PDT) Email Address: bris@lgs.leeds.sch.uk Message: I've just stumbled upon this forum, and I've noticed a few names continually cropping up, among them Ron Geaves and Jonathan Cainer. Readers may be amused at a a happening which connects them. In the mid '70s, in a hotel in North Leeds (UK ) a public meeting was held. One of the Satsang sharers was Jonathon (then living in Leeds). While he was speaking, I became aware of someone entering the hall and standing at the back. Jonathon remarked that 'Satsang is not just in the words; something ineffable is transmitted also', or words to that effect. Suddenly, the figure at the back strode down the aisle, clad in long black raincoat and flowing white scarf. Ron Geaves (for it was he) cried 'Stop! It IS in the words! Stop talking nonsense!' He followed up with a furious diatribe and consigned Jonathon back to the audience. The event continued with a somewhat subdued ambience. Ever since then, he and his colleages also present have been known locally as the 'Divine Gestapo' although committed premies do not, of course, refer to the matter.

Subject: BriS? Is it you? From: Bryn To: BriS Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 27, 2002 at 03:54:47 (PDT) Email Address: bryndaviesesq@hotmail.com Message: I think I know your true identity BriS! Why not put me right with some ambiguous confirmation? Or email me at the above address. I remember the above event too! Dark days as far as I am concerned, now escaped as of two years. What a pile of utter psycho-shite we slung around at each other in those days (me included of course). I guess it still goes on in a way, or is it 'all different now?', How? Love Bryn

Subject: Re: BriS? Is it you? From: bris To: Bryn Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 27, 2002 at 04:25:39 (PDT) Email Address: bris@lgs.leeds.sch.uk Message: Colonel Bloodnok! We meet again! Yes Bryn, tis I - and I never tried to hide my identity - bris is my username at work, so I use it everywhere. Good to hear from an old friend - especially from the 'old' days. I wouldn't say I'm an ex-premie yet - maybe an 'exiter'. If you knew the details of my coming to K., you'ld understand why I have a commitment I can't just throw away - to do with a life & death situation. If you want me to bend your ear about it I will someday, but I don't want to bore anybody. Lets just say I try to listen to all sides of this dispassionately, and wait for inspiration, from whatever source. I got an e-mail from John Brauns this morning - remember him? Reminiscing with him brought a lot of good stuff to the surface - all those mad times & people - 'Bongo Billy', Harry the Horse, dressing up as medi-eval minstrels for a Rugby Club dance, singing 'Satgurudev' at the Swan with Two Necks (!) Happy days indeed. Is it different now? For me it is - the world is a darker, more hateful/hating place. Maybe there's a light at the end of the Tunnel, but it won't be a Darshan tunnel. Love from your old-time pal Big B

Subject: Yes and... From: Bryn To: bris Date Posted: Fri, Jun 28, 2002 at 04:24:49 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ...we did 'twameva' as a slow waltz later at the same Rugby Club gig. I really thought I was changing the world singing devotional songs in the presence of the great Eddy Waring!(remember him?) True! Enough. See you on the emails. Love Bryn Love Bryn

Subject: you sang arti to Eddie Waring-youworry me! (nt) From: The Falcon To: Bryn Date Posted: Fri, Jun 28, 2002 at 09:10:18 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: Old friends From: The Falcon To: BriS Date Posted: Wed, Jun 26, 2002 at 08:36:26 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Black raincoat? white scarf? call the fashion police!

Subject: How about some old Actonians chirping up! From: Jethro To: The Falcon Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 27, 2002 at 01:30:46 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Falcon I used to be in Acton ashram with Ron G and others. When I moved in they had several books on nazi regalia and were really really into the Godfather, which was often given as an example of devotion. Jethro

Subject: Acton ashram From: Mike Finch To: Jethro Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 27, 2002 at 06:13:27 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I was in the Acton ashram for a while, and I think my stay overlapped with Ron's. I can't really be sure though, as my ashram memories have all coallesced into one long surreal saga. -- Mike

Subject: Mike Finch ? From: Jean-Michel To: Mike Finch Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 27, 2002 at 07:38:03 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Would you email me please ?

Subject: Mike ? my email From: Jean-Michel To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 27, 2002 at 09:28:29 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: jmkahn@club-internet.fr

Subject: Re: Acton ashram From: Jethro To: Mike Finch Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 27, 2002 at 07:09:42 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hello Mike, We weren't there at the same times. In fact our paths hardly crossed during those years. Hope all is well with you Jethro

Subject: Re: Old friends From: Vicki To: The Falcon Date Posted: Wed, Jun 26, 2002 at 09:12:12 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Isn't this indicative of what Maharaji himself did, only he did it all by his little ol' self? For years he talked about the essence of satsang, that if one listened with intellect and not the heart, the meaning would be lost and one would simply be unable to understand what was 'really' being said. After decades of that, he tells every one in the Atlanta/ Michael Nouri show, that we couldn't simply blurt out warm, fuzzy feelings, but be, dare I say, more intellectual and therefore needed training in what we said about knowledge and Maharaji.

Subject: It wasn't supposed to be the words! From: Cynthia To: Vicki Date Posted: Wed, Jun 26, 2002 at 10:13:50 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Vicki, My clear and complete understanding (being such a sychronized aspirant in 1975 and endorsed by the Aspirant Committee) was that it was definitely not the words. I can attest to the fact that if one was looking for understanding through the words that was most incorrect. It was the heart that had to listen in order to understand. Cynthia, Last time I checked my heart doesn't have ears...

Subject: Oh darn! From: Richard To: Cynthia Date Posted: Wed, Jun 26, 2002 at 10:46:43 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Last time I checked my heart doesn't have ears... No wonder all my music sounds like lub-dub lub-dub lub-dub lub-dub lub-dub lub-dub when I listen with my heart. And a Hearty Har Har Har ! :) Richard Heart beat www.koumis.com/sfx/heart%20beat.mp3

Subject: You liked that one, eh Richard?? [nt] From: Cynthia To: Richard Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 27, 2002 at 06:19:47 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Oh-so it rationalizes like this: From: janet To: Richard Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 27, 2002 at 03:28:42 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: for those who didn't really wanna take it seriously, they glommed onto the angle that you weren't supposed to take the words seriously. They ignored or minimized the words they heard. For those who took it rabidly, they glommed onto it for both the words literally, and the absolutist agenda that you did what the Master said, and didn't use your own thinking. For those who wanted just a cosmic high, they glommed onto the part that specified that it was not the words, it was the feeling, and they tuned out the words and just drifted with the bliss and the zoning out. And for those who were just too damned intelligent to completely succumb, both the words and the feelings gnawed around in their subconscious for years, not reconciling, until the discrepancies finally ruptured the surface and asserted their fundamental bullshit, where they could finally name what was wrong with it all, and leave it. ahhhhh. that explains everyone. no. wait. i forgot the most sad of all. for those who couldnt get high on the feeling, whose hearts didnt get anything from the listening, whose minds tried valiantly to live by the words and it didnt work-- they killed themselves. OK. now I believe I've covered everybody. yep. that explains it. the rationalizers, the literalists, the bhakti's, the ex's, and the suicides.

Subject: More details on Rawat's European tour From: Jean-Michel To: All Date Posted: Wed, Jun 26, 2002 at 01:16:38 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: On the French forum: Rawat's European Tour

Subject: translation: More details on Rawat's European tour From: anon To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Wed, Jun 26, 2002 at 01:59:24 (PDT) Email Address: brigitte@bardot.com Message: Forum II Welcome on the Forum. This forum is at the disposal of the people who were disciples of Maharaji, to discuss their engagement passed with the guru and his organization, Elan Vital (ex-Divine Light Mission). So that the debates and discussions preserve their interest, we encourage you to respect this place. Notes: This forum does not represent any official organization, and does not form part of Ex-Premie.Org , but we strongly recommend the reading of this site to you. The files of this forum (and its preceding incarnation), as well as a choice of the best articles of the forum are available. In the event of unavailability of Ex-Premie.Org, test the mirror sites following: Ex-Premie1.Org , Ex-Premie2.Org , Ex-Premie3.Org , Ex-Premie4.Org , Ex-Premie5.Org , Ex-Premie6.Org , or Ex-Premie7.Org . JM Kahn (Click on this link to write to him) is the person in charge and administrator of this forum, but he is not responsible for the expressed points of view herein. You are only responsible for your messages. As you noticed, this forum is lodged on a US system, the instructions are thus in English. Translation: Subject: All on the round of Rawat/Europe Message: 11 programs envisaged in Europe, all organized at the local level. Each person is invited to 1 conference Essential reservation. All the infos are on the national responder (in France). Number: 01 47 64 15 17 ++++++++++ Athens, Greece July 18 (Presentation of K) Augsburg, Germany July (not specified date) (People having received K) Barcelona, Spain July 9 and 27 (Presentation of K - People having received K) Geneva, Switzerland July 14 (People having received K only) Exhibition centre (Palexpo) www.event-registration.org/geneva and 0467401455 (assistance for inscriptions) French seems ' invited '. Lisbon, Portugal July 7 (Presentation of K) London/Brighton, England July 23 (Presentation of K, and people having K) 1 English program (Brighton), 1 in Hindi (London?) 'donation requested' (sic): 35 Livres.... Ljubljana, Slovenia July (not specified date) (Presentation of K) Rome, Italy July 29 to 17 hours (People having received self-K) French seems tolerated Teatro Sistina, via Sistina 129 - Rome Résa: http://www.bestway.it/conferenze/default.php and www.bestway.info (the Italian travel company 'premy') Details: cor2002@genie.it Details for French with the following address: www.event-registration.org/geneva. (it seems that Switzerland took France under supervision......) And for the places dispo for French: www.contact-info.net Plan each time to be there at least 3 H in advance, double control of safety, excavates with body (I do not talk cock). SmartCard (chart of electronic identification made in Rawat) essential of race. Aspirants: to know where you ' are invited ', to see infos by the ' local teams' Invite the tele one, the radio, bring the detonators (and cognac)! JM, who definitely is obliged to deal with all here!!!! Bibérian, what you insane??

Subject: Excavates with bodies ? From: Happie Frenchie To: anon Date Posted: Wed, Jun 26, 2002 at 03:08:26 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Indeed, that's some details about PPR's European tour and sheds a new light on what goes on at these programs ! This is too funny !

Subject: Re: Excavates with bodies ? From: Jean-Michel To: Happie Frenchie Date Posted: Wed, Jun 26, 2002 at 03:27:23 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Excavates the body for 'fouille à corps'. How would you say this in English ? I'm not kidding: a French speaking ex recently reported how the premies were parked like animals and searched on their body at the last Amaroo event, and how humiliated people felt.

Subject: Re: Excavates with bodies ? From: Bolly To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Wed, Jun 26, 2002 at 13:34:56 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I thought it was just the gun in my handbag they were after. In Britain we welcome many people at our airports and rrailway stations with a search of all bodily orifices. It's not something that generally happens at social events, at least not in the foyer of a public place, as far as as I know. But then I don't get out much so what do I know? Interesting departure, adds a whole new meaning to within inside of you. Love Bolly

Subject: Re: Excavates with bodies ? From: PJ To: Bolly Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 27, 2002 at 02:34:35 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Highly salacious lot, you ex-premie ladies. Maybe one more reason to desert the fold.

Subject: LOL Bolly! From: Richard To: Bolly Date Posted: Wed, Jun 26, 2002 at 13:43:58 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: adds a whole new meaning to within inside of you. LOL!!! Maybe they will search for doubts and questions that may be otherwise brought into the hall. Richard, without outside

Subject: fouille au corps = body search (nt) From: Happie Frenchie To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Wed, Jun 26, 2002 at 12:26:19 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: Excavates with bodies ?heh heh From: janet To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Wed, Jun 26, 2002 at 03:39:48 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I think we get the idea JM. I suppose a more familiar way of putting it in english would be to state that for security reasons, being patted down and body searched should be expected and prepared for. a body CAVITY search, however would be shockingly invasive, and i would think Rawat would reserve himself a choice elite selection of comely blonde females to be personally body CAVITY searched by he himself in exclusive private cirCUMstances.[I do talk cock] !lol!lol!lol!lol! ROTFLMFAO i mean, i know this is france and all, but still...

Subject: Nice one, Janet From: PJ To: janet Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 27, 2002 at 01:24:01 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You do some good posts, don't you.

Subject: janet, sometimes you are hilarious! From: Marianne To: janet Date Posted: Wed, Jun 26, 2002 at 08:00:05 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Best regards to you. Marianne

Subject: this is just too rich, isnt it? From: janet To: Marianne Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 27, 2002 at 04:06:41 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I mean, there are so many tempting angles from which to tease this thing. 'excavates with bodies'. think about it: does it mean that they are going to try to dig up any dirt they can find on each attendee, and confront them with it at the door, and interrogate them about unacceptable things they have discovered each person did in their past, that would categorize them as being barred from attending? then again, could it refer to exhuming dead devotees, and having them transported to the event, in order to inflate the statistical count of attendance? I mean, it's grisly, but not outside the bounds of conceit, given that dead people have been reported as voting in elections in Cook County for a long time. And isn't there some phrase in the Bible that states that on Judgement day, all the graves will open and all the souls will rise to reappear before the Lord? You don't suppose this could be that day, could it?! And we are going to be somewhere else when it happens??! Now that IS something to think about. But then again, If it means a body cavity search..well, If i remember correctly, didnt they used to tell us, in the ancient yogic texts, that to practice and experience Knowledge, we had to close up all the holes of the body, in through which the maya of this false world streamed, so that we could focus inside and attain samadhi? Yes, I clearly recall them admonishing us to do that. Stop up the ears, the eyes, put the tongue back and close the mouth, to even poise between the inbreath and outbreath at the holes of the nose...and to really complete the seal, to sit with one heel jammed firmly up into the crotch in half lotus postition, to close those holes, too. Now, either they intend to really test the devotees' years of practising such devout concentration, by attempting to pry their way into those orifices, while the devotee is meditating, to test whether they have truly mastered the rigorous command of attention required to attain true enlightment.. or maybe they're actually going to conduct body contact Knowledge reviews, wherein the examiner will systematically close up each of those holes FOR you, and see what kind of experience you have when they do it. hm. or maybe it means something else I;m just not understanding. sigh. 'feuille a corps', you say. leaves with a corpse? well, after maharaji killed that bicyclist in India, I'm sure that leaves him with a corpse.. but no, it's not that kind of leaves. a corpse brushed with leaves? a corpse buried under leaves, perhaps. no... oh dear. this is getting worse. I don;'t seem to be able to grasp the meaning at all. there are so many possiblilities. hm feuille a corps. no! wait! i have it! the big brush off! yes! that's it! they will treat you shabbily and give you the big brush off! Oh, by jove! it's so clear! yes! brush you off, like the rustle of leaves,or riffling the pages of a book! ahhhhhhhhh. well. how nice of them to assure us they will treat us as negligently as they ever have. well! I'm glad we got that cleared up before the program. (tut. I really must brush up on my french. I quite got lost there for a bit.too many nuances of meaning. goodness!)

Subject: Re: this is just too rich, isnt it? From: AJW To: janet Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 27, 2002 at 16:51:59 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: That's funny janet. I thought feuilles a corps were dead cigarette papers. Closing all the orifices, you run out of digits and limbs. Maybe that's why we ended up with our heads up our arses. Anth, who looked within

Subject: Humiliations and abuses in the cult From: Jean-Michel To: Marianne Date Posted: Wed, Jun 26, 2002 at 08:55:05 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: This is not something that should be taken lightly IMO. Ill-treatment of the premies by the 'security', by the instructors, by the various 'teams' and during the seminars is something that's a part of the cult system - brainwashing. This is a well-known technique. Think of it: premies are ill-treated whilst waiting to kiss the lotus feet, or waiting to see their 'lord', and then big daddy comes to reward them, after hours of waiting and humiliation. I've been through this too for decades. One one side EV (on its websites) is asking to report abuses, and abuses premies left and right.

Subject: Improved translation From: Jean-Michel To: anon Date Posted: Wed, Jun 26, 2002 at 02:42:53 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 11 programs scheduled in Europe, all organized at the local level. Each person is invited to 1 conference. Necessary to register in advance. All the infos is on the national answering machine (in France). # (33) 1 47 64 15 17 ++++++++++ Athens, Greece July 18 (Presentation of K) Augsburg, Germany July (date not specified) (People having received K) Barcelona, Spain July 9 and 27 (Presentation of K - People having received K) Geneva, Switzerland July 14 (People having received K only) Exhibition centre (Palexpo) www.event-registration.org/geneva and 0467401455 (assistance for registration) French seems ' invited '. Lisbon, Portugal July 7 (Presentation of K) London/Brighton, England July 23 (Presentation of K, and people having K) 1 English program (Brighton), 1 in Hindi (London?) 'donation suggested' (sic): 35 £.... Ljubljana, Slovenia July (date not specified) (Presentation of K) Rome, Italy July 29 at 5 pm (People having received self-K) French seems tolerated Teatro Sistina, via Sistina 129 - Rome Reservation: http://www.bestway.it/conferenze/default.php and www.bestway.info (the Italian premie travel company) Details: cor2002@genie.it Details for French at the following address: www.event-registration.org/geneva. (it seems that Switzerland took France under supervision......) And for the places available for French people: www.contact-info.net Plan each time to be there at least 3 h in advance, double safety control. SmartCard (electronic identification card made in Rawat) mandatory. Aspirants: to know where you are ‘invited ', check with your local team. Invite TV, radio stations, bring firecrackers (July 14, Bastille day), and cognac of course!

Subject: Re: Improved translation From: Josef K. To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 27, 2002 at 01:08:23 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hmm, somewhat better. For translation programs, try Trados. This is a professional one, and used by industry. If you use a cheapie auto translation one, you have to check it later. Bored professional.

Subject: LOL!! From: Jean-Michel To: anon Date Posted: Wed, Jun 26, 2002 at 02:17:18 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Too funny !! What's your translation software ?

Subject: body cavity search babel From: anon To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 27, 2002 at 10:18:18 (PDT) Email Address: dante@divine.com Message: Too funny !! What's your translation software ? --- A: it's body cavity search babel Alas, Bab-elan! PS have you got a better software site translator?

Subject: Maybe a pwk could explain this From: Jethro To: All Date Posted: Wed, Jun 26, 2002 at 00:38:36 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Could someone who is associated with prem rowatt who is not god or greater than god or a guru or a leader, explain the following at which myself and several thousands were present: 'To me the most ultimate experience in my life became Guru Maharaj Ji not even Knowledge, and when it became Guru Maharaj Ji it was so beautiful because I could attach myself to that experience, because Guru Maharaj Ji was in this world, Guru Maharaj Ji was there, and I remember every experience of standing in front of Him and experiencing a state of Mindlessness, where even you can call upon the mind as loud as you want but it is not there. A stage of where future does not matter, past doesn't matter and you're definitely not in the present. I think that stage is called ecstasy an incredible bliss.' Guru Maharaj Ji Hans Jayanti Festival, Orlando 6th Nobvember 1979(Tuesday-day) Reproduced in Affinity publication. Issue No:54 February 1980

Subject: Re: Maybe a pwk could explain this From: Jerry To: Jethro Date Posted: Wed, Jun 26, 2002 at 19:35:56 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Oh, Jethro, you're just so... long ago. Maharaji doesn't say shit like that anymore. Why don't you snap out of it? Maharaji apparently has, so why don't you? Yeah, it's obvious that Maharaji was a little wacky back then but like the TRUE master he is, and has always been (even if he didn't quite have his shit together when he spouted such outdated nonsense), he's now got his shit wrapped tight. All masters said the damndest things back then. You can't hold them accountable for what they said because, dig this, they're masters, and have a master's perogative to disown anything they've ever said. Listen, just don't think about it and you'll be fine. You know how Mr. Mind can be. Such a nuisance.

Subject: Thanks for that, I shall take From: Jethro To: Jerry Date Posted: Wed, Jun 26, 2002 at 21:39:25 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: it that he never said that and that HE doesn't want to be worshipped like that. Silly me holding on to the past. Silly me thinking it was for life, I should have known that it was only a matter of speech when he said it was for life. Yes I'll forget about it Jerry thanks for that. Oh yes and I'll forget about all the suicides, too. It seems out of fashion to remember such things, after it is all in the archives (I sound like one those stupid Jews who still thinks the European Holocaust should be remembered,why don't I just grow up up!!!) Oh yes and I'll ignore the fact that I was told by a pwk(last year) that maharaji was appearing in multiple forms like krishna to people in the 'res' (premie colloquial term for the physical abode of the Lord). You're right Jerry, all that stuff just doesn't happen any more. I know let's go and crucify all those people who listen to other peoples' secret conversations, It seems a good point for premies and exs to get together on. In fact why don't we exs make a collection for poor prempal to make up for all rthe bad pr we gave him. He probably is the Lord after all. Truth is always totally agreeing and supporting prempal rowatt. Jethro PS to all the silent exs. FUCK OFF

Subject: Excuse me Jethro .. From: Thorin To: Jethro Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 27, 2002 at 02:43:09 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I don't understand your PS. Perhaps it is meant to be ironic or sarcastic but I don't know. Is this the real Jethro posting or someone else standing in for Jethro? Just wondering Cheers, Thorin

Subject: Thorin, it's me Jethro From: Jethro To: Thorin Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 27, 2002 at 02:58:30 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'm just a bit pissed of with certain exs I know who could contribute a lot here, but never had. Jethro

Subject: Re: Thorin, it's me Jethro From: Thorin To: Jethro Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 27, 2002 at 05:49:21 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Jethro Yep I know what you mean. The issue, I guess, is one of responsibility and duty but not necessarily obligation. The debate is a difficult one and does not have any absolute conclusions. Part of the debate picks up on the issues surrounding RE. At the end of the day it's horses-for-courses (sorry for the string of cliches :) ) and we all need to ascertain what we individually want to do. After all we are no longer in a cult where the general consensus becomes the required norm. I know of several exes who lurk here and who have zero interest in posting. Also know of a couple of exes (one an ex-pam) who lurk and have only done one post. Either way I don't have a problem but do choose to encourage people to post - not least, as I have found, that posting helps clarify one's own thoughts. all the best to you Jethro - you have helped many to throw of the shackles of Maharajism Thorin

Subject: Re: Thorin, it's me Jethro From: Jethro To: Thorin Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 27, 2002 at 07:11:53 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'you have helped many to throw of the shackles of Maharajism ' Maybe so, but sadly not nearly as many as I got into it. Cheers Jethro

Subject: Re: Thorin, it's me Jethro From: Thorin To: Jethro Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 27, 2002 at 07:19:31 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hey don't be so hard on yourself Jethro - no tally is being kept Just read your fascinating insights as relayed to our old friend Andrea E. Great stuff! :)

Subject: Of ex-premies, weddings and a long view From: Marianne To: All Date Posted: Tues, Jun 25, 2002 at 22:32:19 (PDT) Email Address: MarianneDB@aol.com Message: I lived in an ashram in Columbus, Ohio, in 1974, when I was 18. I shared my bedroom with two sisters - Karen and Kris, who were a year older than me. When I realized that I could not change the world from the confines of the ashram, I enlisted them in my dream of moving to San Francisco, going to college together, and living in a place where social change and being different were valued. We drove across the country that summer and landed in Marin County, just across the Golden Gate Bridge from San Francisco. We lived in the shadow of Mt. Tamalpais, a place of immense beauty and inspiration. That was nearly 30 years ago. Last weekend, Karen was married for a second time. She fell away from being a premie soon after I did, as she became a scholar, mother and psychologist. She married a man who was also a premie in years past, but left that behind and discovered more meaningful spiritual and emotional pursuits. His path brought him in contact with Katie Darling. We three former ashram sisters were together that day again. We are still very close to each other but the Maharaji part of our lives is a distant shadow. The ashram brought us together but the depth of our friendship is what has sustained us over these many years. Katie Darling was at this wedding too. She saw me, with my former ashram sisters. It was wonderful for one of my forum friends to see me in this other but important context. This wedding allowed me to see myself in my long distant past and my present, courtesy of my forum involvement. Being here has been an evolution for me, and has allowed me to sort out issues I had long packed away inside. It has also allowed me to offer my hand in friendship and understanding to others who shared similar experiences. I am glad to have been a sympathetic ear or shoulder for those in need. These are my reflections this night about the value of this forum. Fond regards to all, Marianne

Subject: Re: Of ex-premies, weddings and a long view From: Sulla To: Marianne Date Posted: Fri, Jun 28, 2002 at 11:50:53 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Marianne, I really enjoyed your journal, when I first got to the Forum it was (as your posts are) of much help to me.You are really to admire. Thanks a lot. Sulla

Subject: Re: Of ex-premies, weddings and a long view From: Brian Smith To: Marianne Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 27, 2002 at 01:52:00 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks Marianne, I greatly appreciated the warm thoughts and reflections in your post. Having met you and knowing you it is just so true of your supportive and nuturing spirit in the way you contribute to so many of us your extended forum family and friends. I want to thank you so much for the special gift that you brought back from France which you shared with me, I will never forget your kindness. I am glad that you were and are here to help me find my way out of the maze Love and best regards to you and yours, Brian

Subject: Re: Of ex-premies, weddings and a long view From: Chris B To: Marianne Date Posted: Wed, Jun 26, 2002 at 15:02:26 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yes, Marianne, you've been just that (shoulder and ear) and I thank you for it. Re. weddings, I remember Rawat telling his audience once how he was looking out of his hotel window and saw a couple getting married. He shared his insight on this with us, which was, as he looked down at them, 'You haven't got a clue.' His audience laughed, of course, (I laughed, too, when I saw the video) and looking back on it now that 'insight' and my response to it represent in a nutshell the world-view of Shri Hans, Rawat and therefore, formerly, myself. Which was that everything out there is maya, illusion, something a superior soul definitely does not mess with. Rawat's 'insight' would seem to be harmless but in fact it formed part of the all-pervading mind-fuck which would have me believe that the only perfection exists in Knowledge and that any other worldly pursuit (including marriage) is ultimately worthless. Since becoming an ex-premie I find myself becoming more and more passionate about this beautiful world and all us idiots in it who are fool enough to pursue our lives in a 'clueless', helpful, trusting, hopeful way, not least of whom I include people who walk down the aisle, look into each other's eyes and make sweet vows to each other for as long as they both shall live. So thanks again, Marianne, for that ear and that shoulder.

Subject: Wonderful post, ChrisB From: Marianne To: Chris B Date Posted: Wed, Jun 26, 2002 at 19:56:07 (PDT) Email Address: MarianneDB@aol.com Message: Hullo Chris -- and family. Your post is so heartwarming to read. You and your family are re-discovering each other, at long last. I am thrilled for all of you. No doubt you are seeing there is no simple panacea for sorting out one's closest relationships. But you're free to have those relationships minus the Maharaji lens that you used to see through. You sound well. It has been an honor for me to know you and other members of your family. Best regards and hugs to all, Marianne

Subject: Good one, Marianne :) [nt] From: Dermot To: Marianne Date Posted: Wed, Jun 26, 2002 at 05:34:43 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: Of ex-premies, weddings and a long view From: AJW To: Marianne Date Posted: Wed, Jun 26, 2002 at 03:14:35 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Marianne, I love weddings. Sounds like you went to a good one. If ever you decide to marry your Mexican toy-boy, let me know, and I'll rush over, get drunk and be a general embarrassment to one and all. take care love from anth

Subject: Wonderful story, Marianne From: Richard To: Marianne Date Posted: Tues, Jun 25, 2002 at 22:42:45 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It is inspiring to hear your story of seeing the long view of life. Our shared desire to create a better world brought many of us together. It is important to know our passions were ours from the beginning and are still with us. I have recently been in touch with old friends from before K who never were premies and some I met while in the ashram. Despite our current PWK-ness or lack thereof, we share something that has kept us friends all these years. Thanks for sharing your thoughts and feelings Marianne. By the way, your ear and shoulder were a big help for me in climbing down off the fence. Thanks again for being there. Richard

Subject: Touching From: Vicki To: Richard Date Posted: Wed, Jun 26, 2002 at 09:21:06 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Marianne, Your voice has always been a source of calm logic mixed with humor and wit. I've admired your style and presentation. It is fortunate for us that you post on the forum.

Subject: Thanks to all From: Marianne To: Vicki Date Posted: Wed, Jun 26, 2002 at 20:06:30 (PDT) Email Address: MarianneDB@aol.com Message: Thanks Dermot, Richard and Vicki. I've been around the forum for a little over 3 years. Despite the periodic roiling waters, and the personal attacks from premies, I have found the forum to be a wonderful place. I've always felt it was my responsibility, once I found this site, to be there for others who were on the way out or had left. The support I've offered has been repaid many times over in new face to face friendships in the real world. It is very touching to me to hear that I have been a source of support for others. Thank you for telling me. As for you Anth, well, you know how I feel about you and Dot. Much love, Marianne

Subject: RT sings One Foundation :) From: RT To: All Date Posted: Tues, Jun 25, 2002 at 16:48:09 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 1970-80’s followers will recognize this Sat-song by Done Foundation: The Downsize of the Holy Fame What was divine is becoming devoid Due to desires of Balyog-eschwoid. With the downsize of his Holy Fame, Traditional instructions began to wane Began to wane, began to wane (The profit speaks. Ain’t it a shame?) With the Downsize of the Holy Fame Traditional instructions were bent for gain. Maharaji has new inner plants: To place himself within aspirants! Now 3rd technique - see Master swing Long term goal: makes the cash box a-ring cash box a-ring, cash bucks a-bring (A donation thing, what would Kabir sing?) 3rd technique: He’s The Inner Dude Inflating the Knowledge for Self-Gain is Crude. Problems of berthing a plane disappear When the longing for Holy Fame appears Buy Sat Guru! I saw the line Of products designed with my heart in mind. My heart in mind, my heart in mind (VISA is fine sir, just sign on the line) Buy the Visions’ ™ Products Divine Made in America by Devoted Mind. Speaking from our hearts, yes, was the way Hours of meetings, sharing the way. Video intros now have a script Natural intelligence? Out - has been stripped Has-been a-stripped, has-been a-stripped (Brainwashed from dozens of video clips) Why are programs are cancelled today? The Premies Play Dumb with Little to Say. Parents who want their kids in this “heaven Can start brainwashing them 1 year after seven. 'Twas, “Eighteen years - and you’ll meditate But the early years he’ll indoctrinate Indoctrin-eight, Indoctrin-eight (Destiny or fate, please don’t Master-Bait!) Parents who want their kids in this “heaven Can start the brainwash just after seven. Visions ™ sells CD’s, ties, calendars- Products designed for Cult Souvenirs. The older devotees are all cast in stone When he does a dance what mind left is blown. mind left is blown, mind right is blown, (both sides are blown, when bare feet are shown) The older devotees are all set - in stone, Thousands go nuts when he dances alone. His Instructors offer the chance Of VISA deductions for Amaroo Ranch. Buy Sat Guru! Buy Aussie land Fly me for hours, give sunburned anand. Sunburned anand, sunburned anand (He walked on This Sand - 12 ounces, a grand) Sat-Amaroo has bought Premie land Fly 18 hours, and in line you’ll stand. This master speaks truths and distortions are free: Love God in your heart BUT devote to me. “Give me your love and I’ll give you Peace -He said years ago. Know Truth, with a leash! Truth with a leash, Truth with a leash, (The Palms of the Guru must always be greased) Meditation is nice over time, But devotion’s an option. So, we can resign. With the Downsize of the Holy Fame, The Resigned Lovers began to Arraign..

Subject: Definitely a Keeper!! LOL! [nt] From: Cynthia To: RT Date Posted: Wed, Jun 26, 2002 at 10:05:54 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: RT sings One Foundation :) From: Eric To: RT Date Posted: Wed, Jun 26, 2002 at 07:35:34 (PDT) Email Address: celestica77@yahoo.com Message: Well done , R.T. I was there for the historic recording of this beloved tome (or shall I say tomb) to the Lord incarnate. We all got pretty blissed and tranced out hanging with Gurucharanand laying down the tracks for these seemingly endless Indian melodies. Here it is 22 years later and I'm quite moved and amused by your poetic justice, R.T.. Keep em' coming!! I started out playing 'The Lord Of The Universe' at the Greensfarms Divine Light Center in '73 and made it to the big show at Guru Puja festival(that means guru worship, by the way) competing with the legendary 'None Foundation' and more than holding our own, I might add.What a long strange trip it's been.We laughed,cried,blissed out ,woke up,took responsibility for our own life and growth and walked away from it all hopefully wiser and self-empowered.....

Subject: Best of the Forum material ! (nt) From: Happie Frenchie To: RT Date Posted: Wed, Jun 26, 2002 at 03:04:38 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: LOL From: Loaf To: RT Date Posted: Tues, Jun 25, 2002 at 22:16:27 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I actually HAD to sing this aloud in my best mock-Indian accent ! Fabulous !!!.. such skill and wit with words the hallmark of our own dear Larkin.

Subject: Re: RT sings One Foundation :) From: Bolly To: RT Date Posted: Tues, Jun 25, 2002 at 17:15:11 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: WOW I'm really blissed out, if I send a fiver will you give us another number?

Subject: Re: RT sings One Foundation :) From: Gail To: RT Date Posted: Tues, Jun 25, 2002 at 16:59:02 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It was contributions like this from EPO that forced Prem Pal to change his marketing strategy. Look at how much revenue Maharaji has lost in just four years. No more cha-ching (Visa/Mastercard/AmEx) for: a) zircon-encrusted tweezers with Maharaji's mugshot on them; b) lotus-etched shot glasses; c) New CD releases, old rehashed albums; d) New Videos, reworked videos, falsified videos; e) $700 framed pictures of his Lardship Do you think EPO cost Monica her job? After all, Prem Pal doesn't need a purchaser of fine Irish linen or Royal Doulton cups (I think RD refused to put their logo on the cups because they didn't want to be associated with the cult) anymore!

Subject: The 'Master' lies about his past (again) From: cq To: All Date Posted: Tues, Jun 25, 2002 at 11:06:24 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The following is from EV's 'edited and abridged' version of Mr Prem Pal 'No I'm not God/and I'm Lord of the Universe' Singh Rawat's address to the people, January 14th 2001 at Oxnard, California. Anyone recall EVER hearing the following analogy 'back in the 70s' ??? QUOTE: What is a Master? 'A long time ago - this is one example I used to give back in the '70's - people would start comparing me to God. 'Are you God?' - that's what they would ask. 'No, I'm not God.' 'So, what are you?' And this is the analogy I used to give. Imagine a big power station. There are big turbines running in there, generating power, and then there are the cables going out from the power station, going to the different transformers, and from those transformers, distributed further. They go into distribution centers and they're distributed even more. Then they go into your city, into your little area and then into your community, and finally that power comes to your house, and, through the wiring in your house, reaches your little outlet. And from that little outlet it goes through the wires and into the bulb. In the bulb, there is a filament, and when the power goes into that, it lights up. And I would say that's me - the filament. I'm not the power station. The filament is the thinnest part of the whole equation. It is so thin that when the electricity goes through that filament, it lights it up. Whatever it may be, without that filament, there is no light. And if light is what you want, then that's how that is made possible. ENDQUOTE I was only involved between 1972 and 1975, but I swear to God (the real one, if there is such an entity) that I NEVER heard or read any such analogy. Quite the contrary, as the quoted evidence of what the Maha really DID claim a 'Master' was back in the 70s (as archived in http://www.ex-premie.org) so clearly demonstrates. Perhaps he said this after I left? Anyone care to confirm? If not, then there's only one conclusion that can be made: that he's making it up as he goes along (a polite euphemism for mendacity). I think his new converts should be told.

Subject: I'd like to see him get out of this one From: Livia To: cq Date Posted: Wed, Jun 26, 2002 at 15:04:43 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: "It's been said that Guru Maharaj Ji comes, or God comes into the world, when there is a decline in religion. God comes, Guru Maharaj Ji comes, and helps the world." (Denver, Colorado; October 12, 1974.) Um, I'd like to see him explain that one away. A bit of a beauty, that one - and nothing about filaments. After all, who neesds a filament when you can have the real thing? Livia

Subject: Re: I'd like to see him get out of this one From: AV To: Livia Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 27, 2002 at 01:51:54 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: hi Liv, M's satsangs for many years talked about 'that creator, that lord, that guru maharaji,'in a way that all those terms were synonymous for the same same thing, the living embodiment of the supreme power in human form. At times , when he talked about guru maharaji in the third person, it seemed as tho' he were talking about his father, or maybe all the guru maharajis that had ever been. The 'Its been said...' I believe is a reference to Krishna's proclamation in the Gita, that 'whenever darkeness prevails on this earth, I will incarnate for the sake of my devotees/mankind..'(sorry, can't find the exact quote..) those words always sent shivers down my spine, reading the gita that is....maybe I got some good ol' hindu DNA running around in there. Somehow over a period of time, those feelings (very real feelings too) towards a divine being, Krishna, Christ, all of that, became supplanted on M; after all didn't he say 'as a matter of fact ,I am that perfect master'?? and didn't so many of us really experience that for so many years?? Its all too painful Liv

Subject: Re: I'd like to see him get out of this one From: Livia To: AV Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 27, 2002 at 05:28:36 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I think for us in the West, most of whom were brought up with Christianity the 'second coming' myth was a strong hook. All those bits in the New Testament about Christ coming in the clouds with glory - it was so easy really to foist all of that onto Maharaji and he didn't exactly discourage us, did he?!! I also think that being brought up in the 50's and 60's as most of us were, with an underlying fear of all-out nuclear war because of Horoshima and the cold war, made us particularly open to the idea of a saviour coming to sort it all out. Plus we were young and mostly very idealistic. It makes me very angry, though, when Maharaji tries to lay all the responsibilty for thinking he was the Lord at our door. What on earth did he ever to to discourage it? Nothing, particularly when he realised what a meal ticket it was...which is presumably why, even with all the revisionism that's gone on, he still lets the idea that he's somehow beyond human live on in the premies. If he ever admitted that he is and always was totally human, no more or less than the rest of us, you can be sure donations would completely dry up and no one would even bother going to see him any more. His career as teacher of self knowledge would be over, because propagation would cease. Whatever they may tell themselves, the idea that he's somehow special in some way is the hook for the premies who still follow him/go to see him/propagate. Otherwise why would they bother? They could just meditate and use their time and money some other way. I expect there are premies reading this and thinking 'but I don't care who he is - I just love him, and I tell people about Knowledge because I want other people to have the experience'. Those premies should look a little more carefully at themselves. If Maharaji is just a normal human being like you and me, then Knowledge isn't empowered by him in any way. And therefore he has no right to forbid the premies from sharing the techniques with other people should they want to. The techniques aren't his and never were. And he shouldn't be allowing people to kiss his feet either. However, Maharaji keeps the premies hooked in by suggesting he does have a certain power - he says he is the 'filament'. He also says he always said he was the filament, but this is an outright lie, I'm afraid. He said repeatedly that God takes a human form and comes to earth as 'Perfect Master' to save his devotees. He also repeatedly said he was that Perfect Master. No wonder he asked everyone to burn/destroy all the incriminating literature, tapes and videos! I simply fail to understand how premies can think Maharaji's integrity remains intact when it's so obvious he perpretrated a lie, ordered his followers to destroy the evidence and then made out it was the premies all along who distorted the facts! It's quite outrageous and is certainly the main thing that has destroyed his credibility in my eyes, along with his complete refusal to deal appropriately and publicly with the Jagdeo issue. If he still has any remaining credibility in the eyes of any premie who knows what Maharaji says/said and does/did, it would be interesting if they posted here and explained exactly how and why. Without fudging the question. Livia

Subject: His answer would be From: Jethro To: AV Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 27, 2002 at 05:11:33 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'Don't tell me what I said yesterday'

Subject: Re: His answer would be From: AV To: Jethro Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 27, 2002 at 06:11:30 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I was told at Rome 25 anniversary bash, referring to the past, he said 'that was perfect then, this is perfect now'.

Subject: On second thoughts I suppose From: Jethro To: AV Date Posted: Sat, Jun 29, 2002 at 00:00:21 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: for him both times were perect in that he is still fleecing people. Never mind about the burnt out premies, eh!

Subject: what a non-answer!!! NT From: Jethro To: AV Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 27, 2002 at 07:13:28 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: NT

Subject: That would really stand up in court [nt] From: Neville To: Jethro Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 27, 2002 at 17:59:31 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: The 'Master' lies about his past (again) From: Ray To: cq Date Posted: Wed, Jun 26, 2002 at 06:07:14 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I think when he was asked whether he was God he said:'No my Knowledge is God, I am the giver of God'...but that is good old hindu tradition that if Govinda (God, the Lord)and your guru stand in front of you,to whom do you bow first? Guru of course coz he reveals God to you.. no big deal, just plain old hindustani talk..chilum bum bum

Subject: That's what I remember too From: cq To: Ray Date Posted: Wed, Jun 26, 2002 at 09:45:35 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: In fact when asked whether he was God or not (usually by a brass-necked journalist - very few aspirants/premies would have the balls to ask!) - he would respond with the old 'I can show you God' spiel. All this nonsense about filaments was NOT his usual response to the question. Of course, the possibility that he might be God incarnate (but too modest - if such a thing can be said of him - to admit it) led ultimately to the premie belief (which was widespread in the 70s - probably into the 80s as well) that he was indeed God in a 'Divine' Bod, or at least SOME form of divinity that could call itself 'Lord of the Universe' with impunity. Next time someone hears him denying that he said he was God, just ask the question: 'Why did you call yourself/allow your followers to call you 'Lord of the Universe'?'. I'd LOVE to hear him try and answer that!

Subject: Was M God? From: Livia To: cq Date Posted: Wed, Jun 26, 2002 at 14:54:04 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I don't think he ever actually said 'I am God' - in fact, he often said 'No, I'm not God.' But he also said 'Guru is greater than God because Guru can show you God' and that the Perfect Master was God in human form 'and as a matter of fact I am Perfect Master!' You don't exactly have to be a rocket scientist to work out what he was getting at. Plus the total lack of objection when we sang devotional songs to him with words pointing to him being God... And to cement that - he was often closely involved in the making of albums such as 'One Foundation''s, containing extremely incriminating lyrics. He had every chance to object - but never did to my knowledge. In fact, I was even in a room once when Julia Howe sang 'Spread this Knowledge to every land - tell them our Lord if here' and he said not one word! It's a fair cop, I think. As for the filament - no, I never heard it either, ever. Love to all, Livia

Subject: only in the minds of his devotees From: cq - who partially remembers this: To: Livia Date Posted: Fri, Jun 28, 2002 at 08:34:47 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: and thanks largely to his own rampant self-promotion. I guess now he's either in denial, or he got bored with playing God for the premies. Doesn't stop him from getting the adulation - and cash - though, so I guess that bit of it he liked. To think that someone who commanded his ashram premies to sing, twice a day, the song 'Arti' to him, and who can now deny he ever claimed to be God - to think that same person can get people to trust him! It's unbelievable. I guess things like self-honesty, morals and plain old human decency go out the window when you're in the Maha's world. PS the words to the first part of Arti (you know, the first song which goes: 'Creator, Preserver, Destroyer (ie Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva, the Hindu 'Trinity') Bow their heads and pray to you ...') those lyrics are on EPO, but I couldn't find the words to the second song 'Twameva mata, chapita twameva ...' which, as far as I can remember, is translated something like this: 'You are my Mother And You are my Father You are my Brother and You are my friend You are wisdom You are learning You are my All My Lord to Me (I forget the next bit, but it continues)- Oh wondrous Lord My Guru Maharaji Your Grace is a river That flows on and on ... (forget what goes here) Oh wondrous Lord My Guru Maharaji From You I was born And to you now I go ... etc. etc. Does anyone remember how the full version goes?

Subject: Re: The 'Master' lies about his past (again) From: Bob Schmitz To: cq Date Posted: Wed, Jun 26, 2002 at 00:51:08 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I think I heard this end 70s. In this anology, being in the cult, m.s role was more like the meterman....

Subject: The 70s revisited From: JHB To: Bob Schmitz Date Posted: Wed, Jun 26, 2002 at 14:30:31 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I've just been listening to Maharaji talking at Hans Jayanti, Kissimmee, 1979, and he repeatedly declares and demands that we surrender to, devote ourselves to, and worship Guru Maharaj Ji. And if any revisionist premie tries to say that he's refering to Guru Maharaj Ji inside or somewhere else, he also repeatedly says we should obey Guru Maharaj Ji's agya, and we all know there is no such thing as internal agya, don't we? No, everything he said and did in those days pointed to him being Guru Maharaj Ji and worthy of complete devotion. Here's one quote:- Only Guru Maharaj Ji's grace is real only Guru Maharaj Ji's love is real only Guru Maharaj Ji is real The grace of this world is not real the love of this world is not real and in fact, this world's not real! When I get some time, I'll collect these on EPO, but for the time being, I'll just post the odd ones I find:) John.

Subject: any details Bob? From: cq To: Bob Schmitz Date Posted: Wed, Jun 26, 2002 at 04:12:31 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Any chance of saying where/when you heard his analogy Bob? (which, by the way, is about the worst analogy he could have used - every filament eventually burns out and leave everything in darkness!)

Subject: appropriate, n'est ce pas? (NT) From: The Falcon To: cq Date Posted: Wed, Jun 26, 2002 at 08:39:20 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: What's a matter with everyone From: Jethro To: cq Date Posted: Wed, Jun 26, 2002 at 00:15:43 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: he hailed himself as greater than god and still behaves so. Anyone with a brain knows he is a liar and he continues because people let him and drink it up.

Subject: He really knows how to take the peace (nt) From: hamzen To: cq Date Posted: Tues, Jun 25, 2002 at 15:44:11 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ahha

Subject: Re: The 'Master' lies about his past (again) From: PatD To: cq Date Posted: Tues, Jun 25, 2002 at 12:27:14 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Sounds like him alright,probably was,I think he might have said it before you joined up.In any case it's splitting hairs on his part for what can the filament be other than the son of god. 'Are you God?' - that's what they would ask. 'No, I'm not God.' 'So, what are you?' And this is the analogy I used to give.etc. The part in bold has maybe been added after the fact but all the rest is the young lordy telling the stoned multitude he's up there with the big stars of religious history,JC,Buddha & all.

Subject: PS From: PatD To: PatD Date Posted: Tues, Jun 25, 2002 at 12:54:00 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: the more I think about it,yes he said that. Revisionism isn't a recent thing : his father's book was pulled from circulation in early '72,the film of early devotees likewise in '73/4. He may even have said the 'No I'm not God' bit. So what really. I can't remember any premies with theological training in those days,or indeed that it was ever encouraged later. I remember showing some of the very early publications to an Indian woman at work & she said, 'this person isn't a Hindu',which of course just confirmed me in my belief that he was above such shit. Filament=Incarnation of God. He can't spin that one.

Subject: Re: The 'Master' lies about his past (again) From: Will To: cq Date Posted: Tues, Jun 25, 2002 at 12:26:34 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: This filament quote should have a permanent home here. It's very recent and Rawat is still claiming to be the next best thing to God. He's says that he is the filament and without him there is no light. BTW, I never heard him say this 'back in the 70's.' If it was ever published, I think premies would remember it.

Subject: 'Zip, zero, nada re: filament From: la-ex To: Will Date Posted: Tues, Jun 25, 2002 at 12:42:03 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Having been around since 1971, I for one can say that I never heard him say anything about only being the filament back then. I have asked numerous premies, and none of them can remember anything about the 'filament'... One old timer who is now wavering, when he heard this, said 'it's clear that maharaji is lying to us now'....he remembers everything, and swears this was never said....it really bothered him that m would engage in this type of revisionism, and is a real 'drip' for him.... Perhaps EPO should hold it up as another example of m's lying, and ask him for the date and publication where it could be seen....

Subject: Lard's filament not working From: Gail To: la-ex Date Posted: Tues, Jun 25, 2002 at 15:23:16 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Ah, yes, but weren't we told to surrender all our old tapes, mags, books, baragons, buttons, arti trays, etc. Is Prem Pal, the revisionist pen pal, really stupid enough to think that he won't caught in, yet, another boldfaced lie? I guess the filament in his lightbulb isn't working

Subject: Lies, lies, lies, yea! From: Marshall To: la-ex Date Posted: Tues, Jun 25, 2002 at 14:21:47 (PDT) Email Address: none Message: I think gmj is definitely lying about having said this filament crap back in the 70's. Just a little 'white lie' though, right? No harm, no foul? Nobody's 'perfect' right? When you really think about it anyway, what's the difference? The bottom line is that he is saying that he is unique and special and that you(everyone else on Earth) sadly are not. I went to an 'event', more like non-event, with my then girlfriend, in Longbeach a few years back, and at one part of the circus gmj showed a video of him walking along the beach with his voiceover saying 'You are the sail, yet I am the wind.' and 'you are the car yet I am the gasoline.' on and on and on with endless comparisons like these, 'You are the this, but I am the that'. Later me and my girlfriend were laughing and joking about how weak gmj's whole gig was(we had only gone to please my mother). We started imitating that retarded video, saying things with gmj's voice like, 'You are the pimple yet I am the puss.' 'You are the toilet, yet I am the piece of shit.' etc. Neither of us could get over how totally lame the whole 'show' was, especially the codependent, nervous attitude the devotees displayed with their awkward(sp?) laughter and applause. Totally pathetic.

Subject: Re: Lies, lies, lies, yea! From: Gail To: Marshall Date Posted: Tues, Jun 25, 2002 at 15:17:57 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You are the Lard, we are the solvent. Yes, indeed! You, Lard, are the greasiest of the bunch, but we ex-premies have the solvent to clean you up--it's called the truth. In the end, you will get your just rewards.

Subject: European tour schedule ? From: Jean-Michel To: All Date Posted: Tues, Jun 25, 2002 at 08:34:32 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Has it been already posted on the forum ? I'd like to have a copy of it. We intend to chase his new jet ..... unless the Lord intends to bypass Eurocontrol.

Subject: What? No visit to France? From: Jacques Cousteau To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Tues, Jun 25, 2002 at 18:51:21 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: No visit to Paris in the Summertime? To take his fair lady to shop for a dress, hmmmmmmm. What is keeping him from his yearly visit to France? Are the French Premies there noticing his absence from their country? Wonder if it has anything to do with the Anti-Cult law and his minor run in with the local Gendarme last year. What passport will he be using this year? The questions continue......stay tuned premies.

Subject: Re: European tour schedule ? From: Fasten your seat belt To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Tues, Jun 25, 2002 at 09:37:32 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Event Information Europe and Australia 2002 Athens, Greece July 18 Augsburg, Germany July Barcelona, Spain July 9,27 Geneva, Switzerland July 14 Lisbon, Portugal July 7 Ljubljana, Slovenia July London, Hindi Event July 21 2002 London, England July 23 Rome, Italy July 29 UK, July 22 Amaroo, Australia September 3-6

Subject: Yawn [nt] From: Livia To: Fasten your seat belt Date Posted: Wed, Jun 26, 2002 at 14:58:01 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Missing dates ! From: Jean-Michel To: Fasten your seat belt Date Posted: Tues, Jun 25, 2002 at 10:08:22 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: What about the dates for Augsburg and Ljubljana ? When is the last program in the US/Canada or elsewhere scheduled ? Anyone knowing when the Lard is expected to arrive in Europe ?

Subject: Re: Missing dates ! From: sleeper To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Wed, Jun 26, 2002 at 06:18:17 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: augsburg is on july 16,a tuesday...and they charge you 120 euro to get registered.

Subject: Re: Missing dates ! From: Vicki the Travel Agent To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Tues, Jun 25, 2002 at 22:38:51 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The dates that are missing still aren't posted on the European schedule. Maybe the venues aren't set or perhaps the Captain wants to keep 'em guessing?

Subject: Portland q&a session From: Livia To: All Date Posted: Tues, Jun 25, 2002 at 06:19:44 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: This is an excerpt from the Portland Community Co-ordinator Conference question & answer session in 1977. Keep in mind that 1977 was the beginning of a new era. After Maharaji's marriage in 1974 a lot of premies left the ashram and got married themselves; donations were drying up. People like Bob Mishler and Michael Dettmers had been advising Maharaji to drop his 'Lord' status but he was apparently worried that the ensuing further fall in donations would necessitate a decline in his living standards. (see EPO for details) Anyway, the long and short of it was that Maharaji decided to keep his "Lord" status and shift the emphasis to "surrender". Maharaji's response to the following question was spoken in a somewhat impassioned manner: Premie: 'Pranam, Maharaj Ji. Maharaj Ji, um, I became a community co-ordinator in Vancouver, um, because of my own desire but by default almost, and I really want to continue to do this service, but I'm married and I have one and a half children, so what should I do?' Maharaji: 'OK. In these cases I am individually dealing with them, because in some cases, you see, where - OK, I'll explain. You can sit down -you can give this question to Michael - you can give your name to Michael Dettmers so that he knows about it and he'll talk it out, but let me explain my side of the story - the way I have to look at things, OK? There is a lot of premies who would like to do that service and who are quite capable of doing that service of community co-ordinator - your service, right? But the point is: are you in any way a tiniest burden on the community? I'm just giving you a very general picture of the way I have to, like, look at things, I have to reason things. And if, say, there is a married couple, and this married couple is like a burden because he can't go and really have an outside job but he's supported by the community. He's co-ordinating, of course he's co-ordinating them, but he becomes a burden. While if you take that burden, any amount of financial support, that is, or any amount of energy being wasted there, burnt there; if you take that support, if you take that energy and put it towards propagation, towards 'prachar', so much more can happen, you know? So it's like there is that fine line. To me, we have to be missionaries, because that's what we are. We have to be freelance volunteers. We don't have to ask anything of this organisation. This organisation will ask a lot of us, and that's what we have to be prepared to give - all the way. You can do your service, that is fine. I'm married, you know, it's not like I'm against marriage, but the point is: are you being a burden? If you are being a burden, then gracefully step aside and you can do more in your community as an individual premie than maybe you can even do as a co-ordinator if you wanted to, because nothing is impossible. But if in any way you are a burden, step aside. Now, that's the whole thing - a lot of people would like to, you know, get paid - and it's just like it's such a tricky situation, and doing things like that (inaudible) I'm just individually taking care of it. And I'm dealing with every problem as individually as possible. I'm not trying to lay a flat line on that. But that is the way I have to reason things. Everybody here is a volunteer. Now you look for two dollars and fifty cents a week from Divine Light Mission - well, this is missionary money. This money that comes in is for God's purpose, it's for Guru Maharaj Ji's purpose, it's for propagation purpose. And it gets wasted on some peanut buttercups, you know? It's just not worth it. And that's the way I look at it. But in some cases you have to do it, where you have to pay a certain person such and such amount. In certain cases it's ridiculous. you know. Certain cases you can get by and be still OK. So, I just gave you a general reasoning of it, but that's the way it is and we'll just deal with your problem individually, OK?' So - $2.50 for a hardworking premie's peanut buttercups is $2.50 too far because it's taking money away from propagation. But spending millions upon millions of donated money on private jets and a yacht - that's somehow OK? Give me a break. Maharaji's rather passionate reluctance to allow any money at all to arrive in the pocket of any premie, whilst allowing himself frankly obscene luxury speaks reams, I'm afraid. Oh, and I like the "it's for God's purpose, it's for Maharaj Ji's purpose", clearing any doubt that might have been festering in any premie's mind. Livia

Subject: Re: Portland q&a session From: Bolly To: Livia Date Posted: Tues, Jun 25, 2002 at 12:34:57 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Interesting hey! You could never accuse the guy of inconsistancy on the cost benefit analysis. I have some stuff from a selection session for initiators dating back to 1986, three guys going for full time service one is about to get married. Guess which one was practically told in so many words he was too big a burden for the community. I'll dig it out and post verbatim at some point. The guy is persistent in making his bid and 'god' is getting quite exasperated by the poor sods lack of understanding about the financial drain he's proposing to become. Finally marj resorts to asserting that the questions are not spiritual and he is therefore unable to answer them. How are you Livia? give me a ring sometime. Love Bolly

Subject: Re: Portland q&a session From: Thorin To: Bolly Date Posted: Tues, Jun 25, 2002 at 13:23:00 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Bolly Are those tapes you have? If so it may be useful getting the actual audio stuff up on the sites. warmly, Thorin

Subject: Re: Portland q&a session From: Bolly To: Thorin Date Posted: Tues, Jun 25, 2002 at 16:25:25 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Thorin, The stuff I'm thinking of is a bunch A4 post event magazine type transcripts. It's a while since I looked at any of it. It includes a knees up in Frankfurt and a big glossy souvinir of Holi in I believe Spain. I also have audio tapes right here with plenty of dust on them as follows, Rome March 1977, English Conference April 1977 Denver Community Centre Sept. 1977 Lima Peru (telephone tape) February 1981 I was out of the loop at the inception of revisionism and did have a whole stack of them. A few years ago I realized I found listening to Dolly Parton more uplifting than this bilge. I started putting the tapes and some of the paper stuff into my charity shop donations. Somewhere I have a particularly cheesy black and wite pic of the holy couple posing like a pair of am dram wannabes. My skills with this equipment are very limited, the machine is loaned to me. I also have not organised an e mail adress. Apart from those slight impediments anyone who can use this stuff is welcome to it. I,ll have another little dig around and see if there is anything else to share. All the best love, Bolly

Subject: Re: Portland q&a session From: Thorin To: Bolly Date Posted: Tues, Jun 25, 2002 at 23:47:09 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dear Bolly Thanks - there a couple of things in there of lots of interest. I will get a message to you soon offline. love, T

Subject: Re: Portland q&a session From: Thorin To: Livia Date Posted: Tues, Jun 25, 2002 at 06:58:16 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Spot on Livia I am glad to chose that particular excerpt - it certainly amply demonstrates Maharaji's zeal for all things material all wrapped up and presented as somehow divinely organised. The utter disdain he shows for premie's heartfelt desires and actions is nearly beyond comprehension. When I first listened to that tape about 4 years ago it acted as a major drip for me - not at first but in the months following. Even in 1977 Maharaji was using subtle bait and switch tactics to trap people and keep them trapped in his bankrupt belief system. All premies and would be premies should definitely download and listen to this tape - it is after all their Master speaking. By the grace of EPO the full q&a session can be found via the above link. (for PC users, right mouse click on linked files and 'save target as ..', for Mac users sorry, I don't know how to do it!)) Thorin Portland Q&A Session www.ex-premie2.org/download/portland_1977/

Subject: Re: Portland q&a session From: Cynthia To: Thorin Date Posted: Tues, Jun 25, 2002 at 09:40:40 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I don't think he was being subtle at all. By 1977 we were coming out of the big 1976 'space-out' and he was losing money I'm sure. Premies were experimenting with living life more normally, like, going out to eat, having relationships, going to movies, etc. All that money we were spending on ourselves for our personal enjoyment was cash he wasn't receiving. He wanted money. Show him the money. What an insult for him to say something so crude to a community coordinator. And he does mention the fact we were 'missionaries.' I agree, that tape and many, many other of his satsangs during that time were his gearing up for the heavy devotional period, which placed so many of us between a rock and a hard place. Talk about a guilt trip...

Subject: UK Cult Fest only 35 quid. From: AJW To: All Date Posted: Tues, Jun 25, 2002 at 04:29:22 (PDT) Email Address: anthginn@yahoo.com Message: Hi, I hear there is going to be a cult festival with Captain Rawat in Brighton on July 22nd. 'Suggested donaltion' is ' £35, but you can give more if you want. The devoted are being told to show up about 3 hours early, as there are expected to be long queues because of 'increased security'. I'm not sure if they're scared of an attack from Osama Bin Laden, or leafleteers from EPO. Patrick, are you still living in Brighton and reading the Forum? Email me, I've got a great idea, but it will take a little preparation. Anth the subliminally versatile

Subject: I live near Brighton... [nt] From: Neville To: AJW Date Posted: Tues, Jun 25, 2002 at 11:45:37 (PDT) Email Address: nrbarnes:btopenworld.com Message: What's the cunning plan? If I carried a placard reading 'Maharaji, you broke my heart' I could really confuse some people. (The ones that already confuse me with that guy in Australia.) Neville

Subject: Neville, From: AJW To: Neville Date Posted: Wed, Jun 26, 2002 at 03:19:00 (PDT) Email Address: anthginn@yahoo.com Message: OK Neville, Here's what I want you to do...get as many of your adventurous pals together, tell everyone to collect loads of.. No..it's better we do this by email. Then it will be a nice surprise for everyone. Get in touch. Anth the submarinal Versace

Subject: Re: UK Cult Fest only 35 squid. From: Mahatma Coat To: AJW Date Posted: Tues, Jun 25, 2002 at 09:51:58 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Ooooh Brother Anth Ji, I am so totally blissing out that you are completely rejecting this bastard miscreant Captain that used to haunt your dreams. This is surely a cult you speak of that is making people wait three hours, get frisked and then made to pay 35 squid to get in the door. By His Grace you will be soon realizing again that only Sant Ji Maharaj can give the peace these poor unfortunate ones are seeking from the Captain. Bhole Shri Satgurudev Maharaj Ki Jai!!!! Mahatma Coat

Subject: The first REAL Latvian nights From: JHB To: All Date Posted: Mon, Jun 24, 2002 at 17:22:41 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Bryn has been staying with me for the last week, and the last two nights we celebrated Latvian midsummer, 'Jani' (pronounced Yaanyi), which basically involves drinking beer around a big bonfire, and decorating the doors of the house with birch and rowan. You know, the usual pagan rituals. Anyway, I also had two other never been premie friends visiting, and to demonstrate how we used to express our devotion to our guru, we sang The Lord of the Universe. It worked quite well under Latvian skies:-) Bryn also brought over some of my tapes from the 70's, so you can look forward to some tasty quotes about surrender and devotion and other stuff that never happened. John.

Subject: It sounds sublime John... From: Cynthia To: JHB Date Posted: Tues, Jun 25, 2002 at 13:12:05 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Latvia sounds like a georgeous country. Glad you had a good time. What's rowan? I could look it up but...I'm lazy!

Subject: Greetings from Riga! From: Bryn To: Cynthia Date Posted: Wed, Jun 26, 2002 at 05:25:36 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi John, I'm in an internet Cafe somewhere in your shinning capital. This land is PAGAN to the core, how on earth did you ever get dragged into a grovelling bhakti cult? I remember the 'all night long' vibes at Kissimee, they were a bit pagan..quite exciting really, but the rest?!!! Love and thanks to you and Erica, Carine,Yasep (bless him) and Edwin

Subject: Re: Greetings from Riga! From: JHB To: Bryn Date Posted: Wed, Jun 26, 2002 at 06:57:13 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Bryn, Many thanks for your graceful company. Also, many thanks for bringing the tapes. I'm just listening to one which is packed full of stuff like 'how dare you disobey the agya of Guru Maharaj Ji', and lots of 'surrender to Guru Maharaj Ji'. I'll be posting some of the good stuff in due course. John.

Subject: Check this out! From: Gail To: All Date Posted: Mon, Jun 24, 2002 at 13:56:04 (PDT) Email Address: gcmacdougall@yahoo.com Message: Something interesting: (the source of which is well, somewhere. look for yourself) If we could shrink the earth's population to a village of precisely 100 people, with all the existing human ratios remaining the same, it would look something like the following: There would be: > 57 Asians > 21 Europeans > 14 from the Western Hemisphere, both north and south > 8 Africans > 52 would be female > 48 would be male > 70 would be non-white > 30 would be white > 70 would be non-Christian > 30 would be Christian > 89 would be heterosexual > 11 would be homosexual > 6 people would possess 59% of the entire world's wealth and all 6 would be from the United States. > 80 would live in substandard housing > 70 would be unable to read > 50 would suffer from malnutrition > 1 would be near death; 1 would be near birth > 1 (yes, only 1) would have a college education > 1 would own a computer When one considers our world from such a compressed perspective, the need for acceptance, understanding and education becomes glaringly apparent. The following is also something to ponder... If you woke up this morning with more health than illness... you are more blessed than the million who will not survive this week. If you have never experienced the danger of battle, the loneliness of imprisonment, the agony of torture, or the pangs of starvation ... you are ahead of 500 million people in the world. If you can attend a place of worship (if you are so inclined)without fear of harassment, arrest, torture, or death...you are more blessed than three billion people in the world. If you have food in the refrigerator, clothes on your back, a roof overhead and a place to sleep...you are richer than 75% of this world. If you have money in the bank, in your wallet, and spare change in a dish someplace ... you are among the top 8% of the world's wealthy. If your parents are still alive and still married ... you are very rare. If you can read this message, you just received a double blessing in that someone was thinking of you, and furthermore, you are more blessed than over two billion people in the world that cannot read at all. Someone once said: What goes around comes around. Work like you don't need the money. Love like you've never been hurt. Dance like nobody's watching. Sing like nobody's listening. Live like it's Heaven on Earth.

Subject: Excellent, Bolly! From: PJ To: Gail Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 27, 2002 at 01:18:57 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Great post. Fantastic poem! I'm going to print it off (I always print off the best few each week). Any more, please post them.

Subject: Sorry, meant to say Gail! From: PJ To: PJ Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 27, 2002 at 02:40:59 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: Check this out! From: bill To: Gail Date Posted: Tues, Jun 25, 2002 at 03:17:18 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The -11% would be homosexual- is incorrect. The number bandied about for a couple decades about 10% was proven to be a wild guess.

Subject: Re: statistics for homosexuality From: Neville To: bill Date Posted: Tues, Jun 25, 2002 at 11:41:34 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: BTW, anyone know any better estimates for the proportion of homosexuals? I'm interested in this issue. In particular, I'm trying to make an estimate of the amount of sheer evil that has resulted from homophobia. Neville

Subject: Does this count? From: AJW To: Neville Date Posted: Wed, Jun 26, 2002 at 03:23:29 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Neville, I read somewhere that about 70% of males get into mutual masturbation when they're entering adolescence. Does this count? Anth, who likes football, drinks beer, goes fishing, and would get tattooed only he doesn't like needles (I had a traumatic experience when my hamster ODd).

Subject: Re: statistics for homosexuality From: Peter Howie To: Neville Date Posted: Tues, Jun 25, 2002 at 16:04:50 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Any figure has to be somewhat dodgy. I think 10% is a great politcal number as it can be used very easily. The reason figures are dodgy and the reason all research on sexuality and the various reports - Hite, Kinsey etc are dodgy is that while the purport to tell us about sexualtiy - in fact the tell us about how respondents want to be seen in the arena of sexuality. That is becasue there is no way of actually knowing whether what they are saying is true or not. This to me is the disturbing nature of research in this arena. When someone says they have never had sex with someone of the same gender there are a number of possible interpretations. a) They have never had sex, b) They have had sex but don't consider it sex (ala Bill Clinton) c) Thay have had sex and don't want to tell the investigator d) They have had sex but it was long ago e) They have had sex but don't any more and don't feel the need to explain f) They didn't understand the question or the language g) It was sex with a transvestite which they consider not the same sex - and there are probably many more. The trouble being that who is to know? There are many factors that are being tested/challenged by studies of sexuality - gender identity, self-image, social mores etc. It doesn't matter the question - i.e 'Have you ever had oral sex' 'Have you ever etcetcetc' Who knows and who the hell can actually check the accuracy of the responses. Cheers Peter Howie

Subject: Re: statistics for homosexuality From: Cynthia To: Neville Date Posted: Tues, Jun 25, 2002 at 13:07:51 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Neville, I wouldn't have a clue, but good luck in your endeavor. I had direct experience here in VT when the state legislature passed the Civil Unions law, allowing same sex couples to be legally bonded (they refused to call it marriage). I wrote many letters to the editors of our various newspapers in response to the sheer evil and ignorance which erupted as a result of that bill (and the arguing before it was passed). It was very ugly here at that time. There are many gay and lesbians who have settled here for various reasons. As an ally of gay and lesbians I was completely disgusted by what people were saying and writing to the newspapers. The backlash (especially christian fundamentalists and hardcore rednecks) groups actually started a campaign to 'Take Back Vermont.' The response to that was 'Take Vermont Forward.' Best, Cynthia

Subject: Re: statistics for homosexuality From: PatC To: Cynthia Date Posted: Tues, Jun 25, 2002 at 14:36:10 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The Kinsey Report's statistics revealed that 10% of the American population had experienced some form of personal exposure to''homosexuality'' This statistic was determined by a survey conducted in the late 1940s. In a ''general social survey'' administered by Tom Smith at the National Opinion Research Center (University of Chicago) in 1992 revealed that 2% of men and 0.7% of women (yes, that's less than one percent!) report ''exclusive homosexual activity in the preceding year'' The answer lies somewhere between the two. 10% may have had some homosexual experiences (usually as adolescents) but only 3% continue to practice into adulthood. However there are many ''invisible'' (mostly married men) who continue to have occassional homosexual encounters throughout life. But these men do not usually answer polls and conduct their homosexuality secretly. The figures for ''invisible'' male homosexuals is much higher outside the west particularly in Latin America and Asia. Because they are not visible they cannot be included in statistics dealing with homophobia. The most important study that shed light on the geographical distribution of gay men in the UK is the National Surey of Sexual Attitudes and Lifestyles (NSSAL) which comprised a radomly selected representative sample of almost 19,000 men and women aged 16-59 years living in Great Britain (Wellings 1994). Overall they found that only 1-2 per cent had had a same sex partner in the last year, whereas in London 12 per cent of men had had homosexual contact, the result of gay men moving to London from the rest of the UK because London offered 'greater social opportunities and more accepting cultural environments'. Peter Scott's own survey of How Far Will You Go (HFWYG) with Peter Kelley interviewed 1001 men from the London gay scene and found that 15 per cent were visitors to London, and of residents only 22 per cent had grown up in London. Around 80 per cent of gay men sampled grew up elsewhere, suggesting a massive gay immigration into London. "If these studies are representative, they suggest that half or more of the UK's adult gay population may be resident in London." American research has found similar 'metropolitan' clustering. One study (Michael 1994) found that in the largest 12 cities in the USA, 9 per cent of the male sample identified as gay, whereas only 1 per cent did in rural areas.

Subject: Peter Scotts survey. From: AJW To: PatC Date Posted: Wed, Jun 26, 2002 at 03:33:21 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Pat, I love statistics, they are tools for creativity. I think a very large percentage of people who live in and around Central London were born somewhere else. I don't know any figures, but when we lived in an apartment, we shared a garden with 9 other apartments. None of the residents were born in London (except my children, and two children next door.) We had 2 Italians, 1 Hungarian, 1 Argentinian Italian, 1 Belgian, 2 Scousers (worst of all), 1 Canadian, 1 Scot, and a few from places scattered around England. Real Londoners are an ethnic minority, along with all the other ethnic minorities in the city. It's a real melting pot. According to the Kinsey survey (see above post of mine, 'Does this count.'), either mutual masturbation doesn't count, or Americans wank each other off a lot less than Brits. Anth, feel the bicep, no, not that one, the one on the right.

Subject: Okay, what's a 'Scouser?'... [nt] From: Cynthia To: AJW Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 27, 2002 at 12:56:18 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: to Cyn From: AV To: Cynthia Date Posted: Sun, Jun 30, 2002 at 08:48:18 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Scouser: someone from Liverpool, as in the Beatles Love AV (yeah yeah yeah) :)

Subject: Re: statistics for homosexuality From: Cynthia To: Neville Date Posted: Tues, Jun 25, 2002 at 13:06:10 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Neville, I wouldn't have a clue, but good luck in your endeavor. I had direct experience here in VT when the state legislature passed the Civil Unions law, allowing same sex couples to be legally bonded (they refused to call it marriage). I wrote many letters to the editors of our various newspapers in response to the sheer evil and ignorance which erupted as a result of that bill (and the arguing before it was passed). It was very ugly here at that time. There are many gay and lesbians who have settled here for various reasons. As an ally of gay and lesbians I was completely disgusted by what people were saying and writing to the newspapers. The backlash (especially christian fundamentalists and hardcore rednecks) groups actually started a campaign to 'Take Back Vermont.' The response to that was 'Take Vermont Forward.' Best, Cynthia

Subject: Thanks all. Statistics noted... [nt] From: Neville To: Cynthia Date Posted: Wed, Jun 26, 2002 at 04:28:00 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: statistics for homosexuality From: Bolly To: Cynthia Date Posted: Tues, Jun 25, 2002 at 17:06:33 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Cynthia, I always enjoy reading your posts. I also have no idea about what per cent of the population does what with who. The last survey on retaining the monarchy in England found that 70% of the population are totally commited to the institution. They never do a survey on are we in favour of 5% of the population owning 95% of the land, though the two issues are inextricably linked. Anyway thank you for standing up for the rights of gay people in Vermont. One of my sisters is gay, and my deceased brother also was gay. England has become a more open place on all issues regarding sexuality, in the last decade. My childrens generation do not encounter the torturuos things my siblings went through in order to love and be loved. Hopefully society will go on moving forward. Love Bolly

Subject: Great! Loved the poem From: PatC To: Gail Date Posted: Mon, Jun 24, 2002 at 17:22:54 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Work like you don't need the money. Love like you've never been hurt. Dance like nobody's watching. Sing like nobody's listening. Live like it's Heaven on Earth.

Subject: Answers for Thorin. From: AJW To: All Date Posted: Mon, Jun 24, 2002 at 12:07:53 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Thorin, Down below you asked me, 'When you have the time let me know what you think meditation is and what is 'that experience' Some people report having deep and profound experiences when in the presence of Mr Rawat. What are these experiences? How much is internally generated by the 'experiencer' and how much of this comes from some sort of 'power' that Rotwat has?' So, first, what are the experiences? Having discovered that they are not what I was told, ie, 'Experiences of my inner self- source of happiness within, etc', I've sort of abandoned them and lost interest. However, not wishing to be seen dodging a question, I'll give you my ten Eurocents worth. Light- patterns on the retina everyone in the world sees when they press their eyeballs. Sound- blood rushing over eardrum, falling wax, etc 'Holy Name' (or whatever it's called nowadays) breathing plus mantra (so hum..) Nectar- snot. And your second question, what about the experiences in the presence of Captain Rawat. Two takes on this one. First, have you seen a royalist meeting the queen, how wierd they go? Or a big fan of a pop star meeting their idol? Or people swooning when they see their favorite singer or actor? I think these experiences are in the same class as the 'bliss of darshan'. People who set other folk on a pedestal tend to go wierd when they meet them. Anybody else got any thoughts on the subject? Anth the snotty swooner.

Subject: meditation and personality cults From: Livia To: AJW Date Posted: Tues, Jun 25, 2002 at 03:30:38 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Anth, Speaking personally, for me the jury's out as to whether the experiences/peace that occur through meditation are 'spiritual' or physiological in origin. My mum used to say I was a nicer person when I meditated! Maybe the origin really doesn't matter in the final analysis - if it makes you feel/function/behave better, go for it. If not, leave it. Also, it's probably best to leave it for a while as you go through the process of becoming an ex - the associations are too great. Or find a different meditation. As for wonderful experiences around M, I completely agree with you. I remember once going to a Dylan concert and being completely mesmerised/transfixed by Dylan. It was at a time when I was somewhat preoccupied by him. (Sad I know, but there you go.) The feeling was rather similar to what I would have around Maharaji. He even looked oddly 'big' in he way M used to for me. On relection I now see that the whole phenomenon said an awful lot more about my ability to project than about the actual qualities of either person beyond their onstage charisma. Having understood an awful lot more about this subject over recent years, I no longer have this experience and project very little if at all onto anyone - a much healthier state of affairs. Not projecting enables you to to see people as they really are rather than how you wish/need them to be. One phenomenon common around people who are projecting onto someone is the tendency to indiscriminate and automatic laughter at the projectee's weakest jokes. It stems from an intense desire to court favour from the projectee, and is very common around M and most famous people. Amazingly, as a performer (musical), I have even been on the receiving end of it myself, which is what led me to examine the phenomenon and work out just what was going on. It is easy to imagine how continual exposure to this sort of fawning, sycophantic behaviour could distort and damge one's personality in all but the very strongest and most down-to-earth people. Note the extent to which famous people aquire drink/drug problems in an attempt to cope. M is no exception. The relationship between M and devotee and the way M presents himself does nothing to prevent this unhealthy type of relationship from developing. Looking at videos now, the extent of the personality cult is so obvious, but to those deeply involved in it, objectivity is impossible. Probably most of us here were totally incapable of seeing what a personality cult we were in until we took a step back. It all becomes clearer day by day. Love, Livia

Subject: I'm reminded of... From: Neville To: Livia Date Posted: Tues, Jun 25, 2002 at 11:36:01 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: --Clapton saying musicians get into drugs because the high they get on stage (i.e. the adoration) can't be recaptured any other way... --The late Carl Sagan who pinpointed the human tendency to blindly follow leaders as one of our most dangerous weaknesses... --The late Frank Herbert, whose 'Dune' series was written to expose and subvert the human tendency to blindly follow leaders... Neville

Subject: Ally Rally From: Livia To: Neville Date Posted: Wed, Jun 26, 2002 at 05:30:20 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I took my parents along to Alexandra Palace, London, for Guru Puja 1973 (what can I have been thinking of?). My mum was unnerved by the 'Bhole Shri'-ing with the upstretched arms - she said it reminded her of Naxis 'Sieg Heil'ing. I scoffed at her and told her she was being ridiculous. Later I introduced her to a smiling premie friend of mine. 'You have to admit he seems pretty cheerful, don't you, Mum?' I said. 'Hmmm. Too bloody cheerful if you ask me,' was her riposte. I have to admit I knew exactly what she meant, but I brushed it under the carpet, as you did, and skipped off. Years later, I took my Dad to see Julian West giving satsang in London somewhere. I thought he'd enjoy it as she came over as rather intelligent, and my parents are a bit intellectual. After the programme I eagerly asked him what he'd thought. 'I counted 42 'you know's,' he said, looking about as pained as I'd ever seen him. That was the last time I ever tried to drag my poor parents along. They're both still alive, and, all things considered, pretty cheerful. Love, Livia

Subject: Brooding over England's loss, Anth?OT From: Marianne To: AJW Date Posted: Mon, Jun 24, 2002 at 15:01:12 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Found time for the forum again now that England got its nose wiped by Brazil? Love to you and Dot too, Marianne PS The Mad Mexican is still hurting over Mexico's loss to USA.

Subject: I thought I was over it.... From: AJW To: Marianne Date Posted: Tues, Jun 25, 2002 at 04:17:44 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Found time for the forum again now that England got its nose wiped by Brazil? Love to you and Dot too, Marianne PS The Mad Mexican is still hurting over Mexico's loss to USA. --- Hi Marianne, I thought I was over it until you mentioned it. It had a catastrophic effect on the national psyche, almost as bad as when we went out of the European semi-finals on penalities to Germany. The way we deal with it is to pretend it didn't happen. Nobody has mentioned it for a few days and I thought I was over it until... Anyway, the USA exceeded all expectations. It's nice to see you relating to other nations on the sports field, instead of bombing them, and nice to see you in a World Championship with other countries involved too. Hope all is well with you and yours. Say 'Hi' to your Mexican toy-boy. Anth, you shouldn't have brought it up.

Subject: Answers for AJW From: Crispy To: AJW Date Posted: Mon, Jun 24, 2002 at 14:10:20 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'd like to take a go at your questions AJW. I'm not going to say everybody should've experienced it in the same way, of course. But I can tell ya what it was for me. I liked the first three techniques when I wasn't sleepy and my thoughts finally slowed down. That was, really roughly, about 10% of the time when the desired brain chemistry result was finally achieved. The light was everything from a glowing energy shield, to a faint glow in the dark, to kaleidoscopic patterns on the eyes similar to when facing the noon sun with closed eyelids, to zilch blackness. I've only ever heard two kinds of music, the beating sound of blood behind my ears (wonder if that would work for taking a pulse rate?) as well as a higher soft buzz sound somewhere behind it. I don't think I've ever (in 27 years) tasted nectar, except for a handful of occasions where I felt strong, sure, undaunted while doing it. And I didn't always do them ‘in order'. Sometimes I'd do holy name first to wind down. Sometimes I'd just dive into light. Sometimes I'd hear music while doing light, and vice versa. Many times I'd take breaks in between, some for 15 minutes, some for a day! And roundabout the time Mj switched to one-hour minimum per day, I more or less dropped the nectar technique off the agenda, save the odd occasion. Okay, nothing too earth-shatteringly different. However, the simple fact that I could see these light patterns and hear these sounds, in themselves was a small and unimpressive deal for me. But with the feelings that started coming when my mind finally slowed down - all kinds of answers just came, feelings of being soothed, safe, needing nothing more - the stillness that felt ‘full' - like a nice mellow high. Some drugs give similar feelings. I felt the same feeling when trying a buddhist version of the holy name where they counted the breaths and left eyelids half open (which I did sometimes before myself with holy name). About a month after completely exing and ceased meditating, I was lying on my couch relaxing when out of nowhere, the 2nd music sound was there. I just felt like going along with it, what the heck, listen to it for a few minutes. The time was ripe. My mind was glad to be slowed, and the music was gentle and soothing to hear - no different from all the other 10% Best Of times I'd had as a pwk. That was a marker for me, because at that time I had fallen out of love with Mj, no longer believed or cared if he was Perfect Master, but was glad to know it was still with me, mine and mine alone and will always be there for me to do with whatever I will. Leave it, listen to it, sometimes, all the time, or never - it doesn't matter. It's my choice totally now. That discovery was a monumental release for me. In the end, the question for myself is, how much do I need and want to feel it? For me it's not the big thing that eastern trips and masters make it out to be. It's just another nice feeling. And I'm only going to continue enjoying whenever the urge hits me again. Like a nice glass of blueberry wine. And without worrying that it's just another weird method in brain chemistry. And I don't know what all the mass love for Mj was - another form of love that's blind and that ignores the facts, maybe. If you were someone who was placed on a pedestal by thousands of people projecting their faith, trust, hopes and dreams onto you, believing your divine authority - how would anyone, even a perfect master, handle that? You'd think at least he/she would love them back. It was *conditioned* that Mj, the master, loves his premies. But I could never actually see that. Exactly how could he love us? But when it looks like he loves money more than his closest servants, the love (from me, at least) dropped like a hot potato. Then you start seeing the object of your love as he/she really is - in Mj's case, a coward who refuses to deal with anything and continues to deceive his ‘dearly loved devotees'.

Subject: Dr Lane's analysis From: Jean-Michel To: Crispy Date Posted: Tues, Jun 25, 2002 at 02:01:09 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Don't forget to read: THE GURU HAS NO TURBAN WHY SHABD YOGA MASTERS ARE NOT PERFECT

Subject: Re: Dr Lane's analysis From: Crispy To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Wed, Jun 26, 2002 at 07:14:12 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Salut et merci pour un autre article excellent! Je vais l'ajoutera avec des autres documents d'EPO pour distribution à une réunion de ma famille cet été. J'ai premièrement entendue de Mj d'une cousine qui est encore une PWK et qui (contrairement à moi) donnait des vidéos d'intro aux membres de notre famille! :)

Subject: Re: Answers for Thorin. From: PatD To: AJW Date Posted: Mon, Jun 24, 2002 at 12:45:01 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: People who set other folk on a pedestal tend to go wierd when they meet them. Yes,the pecking order syndrome,which outside of rawatworld was one of the advantages of being in it.When you know you've got god within,& his are the only feet you'll kiss without,you tend to see everyone from bog attendants to CEO's as being equally in their heads & so can chat easily across the social spectrum. I surely did,mind you a certain level of investment in the appropriate kit for the occasion is necessary.I can do the whole range from semi-derelict to black tie(not ready made either)if need be. Darshan though.......I always felt other people were getting stroked out with bliss & I wasn't....mea culpa. The only time I met yer worship in person I was terrified.

Subject: Re: Answers for Thorin. From: Bolly To: PatD Date Posted: Mon, Jun 24, 2002 at 13:16:10 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Maybe we were faking it. The first time I joined a darshan line snaking down Woodside Avenue everyone was so just like blissed out man. The atmosphere was light headed giggly so was I. Kissing anyones feet was a sort of urgh thought but what the hell everyone else was doing it. This is embarrassing yes my lips grazed the holy silk socks, yes I stood up grinning and got thrown out into the garden to join the other idiots. We all smiled that special smile the one that says ' I don't know what happened there, I'm not going to think about it' We kept grinning all the way to the ciggy shop, and laughing what the hell we were young and in love. Later into my carreer as a premie like you I found the guy a bit scary up close and sought to avoid such encounters. Love and stuff without pedestals Boly

Subject: Rawat says only he can provide peace From: Thorin To: All Date Posted: Mon, Jun 24, 2002 at 07:18:17 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Just in from Elan Vital. I took the opportunity of highlighting certain portions that caught my eye. It would seem that the Unique Perfect Master claims were not disbanded in the early 80's as was claimed. From this EV announcement it is being claimed that the only purpose of one's life is to receive SK, to practise it and only through the Master can one derive the full benefit of SK. No ifs or buts - receive SK and accept the teachings of the Master or choose not to fulfil the purpose of your life. Who said revisionism was the order of the day - from what I see nothing has changed, only some words and suits. --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- -- July 1st: Year 2000 in Review - Highlights from events held during 2000. July 2nd: Awakening: Reflections from 2001 - This broadcast follows the thread of three themes Maharaji addressed at his events in 2001 - Breath, Thirst, and Appreciation. This is a topical and poetic approach interspersed with graphic elements which highlight selected quotes from his talks. July 3rd: Maharaji in Miami, Florida, December 7th 2001 - Maharaji dedicates his address to people interested in understanding more about Self-Knowledge. July 4th: Knowledge: to Know (Rome, September 30th 2000) This broadcast introduces Maharaji and his message, with information on how to learn more about Self-Knowledge. July 5th : Enjoying Knowledge (Alexandria, June 17th 2000) Taken from the talk Maharaji gave in Alexandria, Virginia, this broadcast focuses on enjoying Self-Knowledge. July 6th: Maharaji in San Francisco, CA (November 23rd 2001) Here, Maharaji talks about the importance of the journey and the significance of turning hostile elements into ones that can help us to grow. July 7th: Simple as Breath - Maharaji describes the breath as the most abundant and constant thing in one's life. Its remembrance opens up the possibility of finding joy in one's existence. July 8th : Recognizing the Master (Barcelona, June 2nd 2001) When a person feels the need for inner fulfilment, there is a friend who can help. This particular friend is the true Master, but recognizing him requires a certain understanding. In this talk Maharaji emphasises the importance of recognizing the Master. July 9th: Time, Remembrance and Fulfilment. This new production presents the themes of time, remembrance and fulfilment from Maharaji's talks in 2001. Maharaji speaks about the importance of remembering the gift of life, valuing each breath and each moment, and finding fulfilment in one's life now. July 10th: Maharaji in Paris, France, (September 25th 2000) Maharaji explains the importance of each breath and our need to capture every moment of life. July 11th: Lisbon Public Event (June 10th 2001) Maharaji's introductory address in Lisbon, Portugal on June 10th 2001. 'I bring you very good news: you are alive and within you shines a sun of joy, peace and tranquillity so bright that it can make the darkness go away'. July 12th : Maharaji in Buenos Aires (August 28th 2001) July 13th: Maharaji in Mainz, Germany (July 8th 2001) Maharaji explains the importance of remembering what it means to be alive, and that we can be in joy and fulfilment. July 14th: Amaroo day 1 (April 24th 2001) Maharaji talks about the simplicity of each breath which brings clarity to our life, and the practical value of knowing it: 'Let me take inventory of this life and make sure that not a moment is wasted'. July 15th: Being Comfortable with Life (Curaçao, September 1st 2001) One of the major themes of this talk is what it means to be comfortable with life, with existence, and that Self-Knowledge is something that can make one feel very comfortable with life. In this broadcast Maharaji also talks about finding one's true direction in life, about the fact that nothing in life except Self-Knowledge addresses the full enjoyment of existence, and about the fact that he does not just speak empty words, and that there is Self-Knowledge to give one's life substance, so that one can experience true fulfilment. July 16th: Safe Passage (Curaçao, September 2nd 2001) Here, Maharaji addresses the importance of not letting anything disturb one's enjoyment and experience of life. Some of the other themes include accepting the Master's offer of help in this journey of life so that each person can make good passage even through the storms, and lighting the fire of Self-Self-Knowledge in one's life, which brings both warmth and light. July 17th: Simple as Breath - Maharaji describes the breath as the most abundant and constant thing in one's life. Its remembrance opens up the possibility of finding joy in one's existence. July 18th: Universal Quest – This broadcast features excerpts of Maharaji interacting with audiences at events held in North America during November and December 2001. July 19th: The Essence of your Life (Buenos Aires, August 29th 2001) This broadcast features Maharaji's talk from Buenos Aires in its entirety. He talks about the fact that each one of us has to be the judge of whether we are fulfilled in our lives. He also talks about being comfortable with your existence and with Self-Knowledge. July 20th: Maharaji in Phoenix, AZ (November 21st 2001) At this event Maharaji talks about the thirst to be fulfilled as a universal human feeling, and the importance of taking advantage of every moment. July 21st: Remember – Featuring excerpts from events in 2001 where Maharaji talks about remembering each persons's thirst to be fulfilled. July 22nd: Maharaji in White Plains (November 18th 2001) July 23rd: Recognition (Rome, June 23rd 2001) Maharaji gave this address to people who have received the techniques of Self-Self-Knowledge. July 24th: Amaroo day 1 (April 24th 2001) Maharaji talks about the simplicity of each breath which brings clarity to our life, and the practical value of knowing it: 'Let me take inventory of this life and make sure that not a moment is wasted'. July 25th: Fulfilment (Sydney, October 6th 1996) This programme is taken from a public event in Sydney, Australia in 1996. Maharaji's talk follows a common theme: 'Within you is the domain where you will find your peace. Your peace. My peace is within me. Your peace is within you.' July 26th: It's Happening Here (Amaroo April 16th 2000) July 27th: Nottingham 30-year anniversary event (June 17th 2001) In June 2001, over 6000 people attended an event in Nottingham, UK, to celebrate Maharaji's arrival in the west 30 years ago. July 28th: Amaroo day 2 (April 25th 2001) Maharaji explains what it means to be alive and the passion involved in the process of realising it. July 29th: Capture the Day (Miami Beach, May 6th 2000) This programme features Maharaji's talks from the morning and afternoon of the May 6th Miami Event 2000, plus sneak previews of Maharaji at the backstage before the event. July 30th: Quenching the Thirst (Rome, June 24th 2001) Of all the things we do in life, how many of those things directly pertain to quenching the thirst of the heart? We have an opportunity to fulfil that thirst during our lives. In fact, isn't that what living is all about? July 31st: Remember – Featuring excerpts from events in 2001 where Maharaji talks about remembering each person's thirst to be fulfilled.

Subject: Yes, he still thinks he's God. From: AJW To: Thorin Date Posted: Mon, Jun 24, 2002 at 12:13:42 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You're right Thorin, he still thinks he's the Perfect Master. I read a cult leaflet that is only a few months old recently. It mentioned the fact that you need a 'living Master'. If you ask a premie to name some examples of 'dead Masters', they come up with Jesus, Buddha etc. It's the same old trip, but it's been forced underground because it's no longer socially acceptable to go to dinner parties and tell everyone you are the greatest incarnation of God ever to walk the planet. Anth, the latest in a long line of homosapiens.

Subject: More from Dr Geaves From: PatW To: All Date Posted: Sun, Jun 23, 2002 at 17:19:02 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Extract from 'The British Association for the Study of Religions -Bulletin No.96 June 2002'- 'Report on the 27th Spalding Symposium on Indian Religions- 22 March-24 March 2002, London.': Dr Ron Geaves (Chester) in his paper 'fromTotapuri to Maharaji:Reflections on a Parampara (lineage)' told us that during the early years of the 1970's, Divine Light Mission experienced phenomenal growth in the West. The teachings of the young Guru Maharaji (now known as Maharaji), base upon an experience of fulfilment arrived at by four techniques that focused attention inward, spread quickly to Britain, France, Germany, Holland, Switzerland, Spain,Italy, Scandinavia, Japan, Aouth America, Australasia, Canad and the USA. Toda, the teachings have gone worldwide to over 80 countries. Dr Geaves sought to demonstrate firstly that those various scholars who identify maharaji's roots as Sant Mat, or more speifically Radhasoami, are mistaken. Secondl, he argued that a more accurate exploration of Maharaji's historical background provides an excellent opportunity to study the complexity of the various ways of organising such lineages and can demonstrate how intricately major strands of Hinduism can interweave with each other to create new paradigms to assert an ancient teaching capable of transcending discrete religious borders. thirdly, he sought through this investigation of lineage to throw light on the relationship between charisma and institutionalisation in the Indian context and to allow for a revisiting of Gol'd classification of Sant tradition in particular. This paper attracted much discussion as many participants had informed knowledge of the Divine Light Mission's history, schism and subsequent transformation. I was given this pamphlet by a scholar in attendance at the lecture referred to. He told me that he was rather shocked to learn (from me, after the event) that Dr Geaves was a follower of Maharaji himself - because he had apparently failed to mention his bias at the meeting. Also my scholarly aquaintance strongly disagrees with Dr Geaves's take on Maharaji being descended from Totapuri and saw this as a totally flawed argument at the time - notwithstanding the well documented Sant Mat origins and the fact that Totapuri's practices were apparently totally different. In short he failed to see the connection and saw Ron Geaves' attempt to make a link as bizarrely fanciful. Since he has learned of Ron Geaves' connection with Maharaji as a follower, he expects that Ron is simply falling into the same old trap of trying to bolster his own Master's image by associating him with popular, and respected Indian religious figures. Is he just another quaint old professor who's losing the plot? Any comments?

Subject: Re: More from Dr Geaves From: The Falcon To: PatW Date Posted: Mon, Jun 24, 2002 at 01:58:00 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Perhaps your friend could enquire as to how Dr.Ron completely missed out the Nangli Sahib crew, not very scholarly!! They are very approachable and knowledable apparently, ideal for a professor's inquisive mind and piercing conclusions (Oh fuck, I have fallen into sarcasm!). There are some lovely pictures of the 'Satgurudev'in 'the crown' and a book called;- Shri Swarup Darshan (in English) which recounts the tale in a litrary style that over-eggs the pudding with superlatives. I will lend it to you but it's heavy going and there is no mention of a Hans at all which, if he was Sarupanand's favourite as Dr. Ron suggests, is rather surprising.

Subject: I wonder From: Dermot To: PatW Date Posted: Sun, Jun 23, 2002 at 19:25:04 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: how objective and scholarly he canreally be about all this, given that, subjectively, he's totally immersed as a devotee of Maharji. I suppose it isn't impossible but I wonder what he's actually doing. How much of his academic work life has he devoted to this lineage issue, I wonder? What for? To present Maharaji in some sort of good light in the academic world he inhabits? To do some subtle sort of propagation while retaining some semblance of detachment? Academic curiosity ? To counter the EPO Sant Mat stuff? It all seems a bit odd to me. Then again, it beats working 12 hour shifts in a factory I suppose:) How he can do all this research and then hold a public forum on his paper and NOT ever mention the little fact that he's been totally devoted to the object of his study for the last .....what is it? ...32/33 years beats me haha. Maybe he just forget to add that into the equation.....it's not as if it's relevant or anything:) .....I went to see a Dr just the other night Da do RON RON RON Da do RON RON I had a little query 'bout the Divine Light Da do RON RON RON Da do RON RON Ohhh it seemed so very odd.. his thesis was about his God... ...... oh I can't be bothered to continue... PS Pat....one more time....sorry I called you a pompous snob :) -Dermot

Subject: heavenly deception as in the children of god From: hamzen To: Dermot Date Posted: Mon, Jun 24, 2002 at 02:36:21 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: you can't say the truth because people will misunderstand his true mission and position as the lord of all, so you are economical with the truth, and bluff it as a man of the world. But truly it's not a cult. God that kind of premie bollox is so transparent. If geaves had any self-respect the first line of his paper would state his relationship.

Subject: Re: heavenly deception as in the children of god From: Jethr To: hamzen Date Posted: Mon, Jun 24, 2002 at 03:08:11 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'If geaves had any self-respect the first line of his paper would state his relationship'. I agree with you but if you knew him well he has a tremendously strong intellect that can waffle and rationalise around anything, which is ok in much of the academic world who live on producing papers many of which are much-ado-about-nothing.

Subject: I tried to ignore you post From: Jethro To: Dermot Date Posted: Mon, Jun 24, 2002 at 01:26:51 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Isn't this the person who met that 106 year old mahatma of Sarupanand who told Ron that Hans was Sarupanand's favourite? Oh yes...and unfortunately Ron couldn't check on who the master of this mahatma was after Sarupanand died, becaue the 106-year-old suddenly died. I think it's pretty clear that this mahatma(if he existed), was not with hans or prem. Anyway, as one of Ron's historical favourite people(whose name slips from me at the moment)said'if you say a lie enough times it becomes the truth in people's minds'. It may give some Bhaki-type premies some material(the power of the printed word!). Oh yes, one more thing, in my last conversation with Ron(face to face), I said 'You know Ron, I really believed that Maharaji was LOTU, didn't you?' He bowed his head, shook it from side to side and said 'No'. I am afraid that Ron is lost to revisionism IMNSHO. No more comments on this person for now, except that he has realised a long term ambition in doing this no matter who got hurt along the way. He emulates Maharaji.

Subject: Musing on Greggs term the here after. From: Bolly To: All Date Posted: Sun, Jun 23, 2002 at 13:44:25 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Gregg weighs in on the subject, in print From: Gregg To: Bolly Date Posted: Mon, Jun 24, 2002 at 12:39:18 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The first few words of my response to the interesting Mike Finch thread were 'Here, after the cult...' The word here was supposed to have a little whiff of Zen about it, given the next comments. I was trying to give a sense of us being somewhere specific, perhaps psychologically, especially since defining ourselves as EX-premies says what we are not, rather than what we are. It was also a pun on the 'hereafter' (life after death) which I referred to later when I alluded to premies' belief in going through that Final Darshan Tunnel when they finally shuffle off this mortal coil. So that's the literary analysis, for what it's worth. Whaddya think, Bolly? Is yr keyboard shooting blanks?

Subject: Re: Gregg weighs in on the subject, in print From: Bolly To: Gregg Date Posted: Mon, Jun 24, 2002 at 13:38:36 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thank you for that Gregg I did actually catch the drift of your post. It was the pun etc and that I have been reflecting on the after this life intermittently over the years. Last weekend was the anniversary of my fathers death over thirty years ago. He tends to be spoken of if at all as something best not dwelt on. He could be a bit beyond the pale when fuelled with alchohol. It is quite common to sense the presence of the recently departed, though this has never occured with my father until last weekend when a phrase peculiar to him sort of skimmed through my my mind. A few minutes later I glanced at a picture of my mother which was hanging askew having hung in the same place straight for years. So your pun hot on the heels of my Doris Stokes moment struck a chord. Don't ask me about what the machine does, just be impressed i've cracked the alphabet and know how to switch it on so my skills are not stagnant. Hope we meet before the final darshan tunnel, If it really is the Master at the end of the tunnel I'll ask for a recount. Love etc. Bolly

Subject: Musing on Greggs term the here after. From: Bolly To: All Date Posted: Sun, Jun 23, 2002 at 13:44:23 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: Musing on Greggs term the here after. From: Bolly To: Bolly Date Posted: Sun, Jun 23, 2002 at 23:46:52 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: Musing on Greggs term the here after. From: Bolly To: Bolly Date Posted: Sun, Jun 23, 2002 at 23:46:40 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: Musing on Greggs term the here after. From: Bolly To: Bolly Date Posted: Sun, Jun 23, 2002 at 23:46:03 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Still musing Bolly ? :) [nt] From: Dermot To: Bolly Date Posted: Sun, Jun 23, 2002 at 15:58:56 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Hereafter? Or does he mean the there before?(nt) From: cq To: Dermot Date Posted: Mon, Jun 24, 2002 at 10:10:50 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hereafter? Or does he mean the there before?

Subject: this is extremely amusing [nt] From: Livia To: cq Date Posted: Tues, Jun 25, 2002 at 00:55:01 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: F7 FA'S From: Vicki To: All Date Posted: Sun, Jun 23, 2002 at 11:33:56 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Who exactly are the FA's here?

Subject: Re: F7 FA'S From: AJW To: Vicki Date Posted: Sun, Jun 23, 2002 at 13:09:51 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Vicki, Since July 2000, the forum has been administered by a PC in Paris. Jean Michel wrote the software, and we tested it throughout that summer. The results were amazing, and it's been running the forum ever since. Anth, I swear on the Bible.

Subject: I confirm From: Jean-Michel To: AJW Date Posted: Mon, Jun 24, 2002 at 00:16:31 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It took me months and months of hate to write the software.

Subject: LOL (rien de texte) From: AJW To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Mon, Jun 24, 2002 at 11:59:40 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: sacre-bleu

Subject: Re: F7 FA'S From: Vicki To: AJW Date Posted: Sun, Jun 23, 2002 at 16:15:22 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Ahhhhh, so it's Auto Self Forum, is it?

Subject: Re: F7 FA'S From: gerry To: AJW Date Posted: Sun, Jun 23, 2002 at 13:43:11 (PDT) Email Address: gkl1@techline.com Message: Vicki, I am the FA and I'm trying to keep a low profile. If I post my name and email on the main page, I get spam and virus email aplenty. Also I have been receiving computer telephone harassment calls (ongoing) for the last month or so. PatC was helping me up very recently. I'd like to publicly thank Pat for all his time and dedication. He was a great help and a great FA. I will miss him in that capacity.

Subject: Sympathy & personal (very OT) From: Peter Howie To: gerry Date Posted: Tues, Jun 25, 2002 at 17:51:46 (PDT) Email Address: macquarie@ozepower.com.au Message: Hi Gerry, You're welcome to delete this off the forum as it is OT and personal to you. I got harrassing calls many years ago and I still remember quite vividly the feelings they provoked. Mine were around a failed relationship. They also included stalking and being tailed by a professional. I also found that the person had sent a poisonous letter to my partner shortly before we got married(mid 80s). She didn't bring it up until after we had split up. It had poisoned our marriage. So my thoughts go out to you. I became phobic around phones for a few years. I went through the whole routine. Firstly getting all calls screened by the phone company. Then recording all calls as they came in. The bozo left many inciminating messages. My solicitor said - 'Look if this person is prepared to do this in public then going to trial is something that they want as well. They may want their moment of trying to vindicate how they are treating you.' Eventually I simply changed phone numbers. A few times. My situation became unwinnable - in terms of getting them to stop. Eventually they must have become bored or moved on. Oddly enough they sent me a photo of the marriage of their eldest child. My interpretation of what they were one about was 'Here - you can't do this. I won' Cheers if this is any use. Peter Howie

Subject: Re: F7 FA'S From: Carlos - to gerry (OT) To: gerry Date Posted: Sun, Jun 23, 2002 at 19:30:48 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Are the harassing calls still going on? You aren't clear about that. Allow me to express my sympathy if they are.

Subject: Re: F7 FA'S From: Vicki To: gerry Date Posted: Sun, Jun 23, 2002 at 16:14:40 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks Gerry. I agree, Pat did a great job, as you yourself are doing.

Subject: An Open Letter to Maharaji From: Mike Finch To: All Date Posted: Sun, Jun 23, 2002 at 07:07:13 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Maharaji You are known now to the public as Prem Rawat, but for the 30 or so years that I gave my life to you, I knew you as Maharaji, or Guru Maharaji, so that is how I will continue to refer to you. I have had a long and involved relationship with you, ranging from sublime moments of incredible beauty, good times, mediocre times, through boredom and frustration, to pain, abuse and feelings of desertion. I have withdrawn from you in stages. For the 20 years up to 1990, you were my Lord - someone who could reach into my heart whatever my situation, and rescue me. I practiced Knowledge almost everyday, and begged and prayed for your grace to make the Knowledge work, in full confidence that you could and would do this if I were open to it. And if it didn't happen, well then I was obviously not open enough, and needed to surrender to you more. In the early 90's, I had my first doubts that you were the Lord; perhaps you did not control this amazing grace that could enlighten me. But that was OK, because the Knowledge was internal, between me and God, and could still take me to the deepest place; even if your role was just to give the Knowledge, and remind me of the importance of it periodically, that was enough. In the mid 90's I met you briefly backstage at the Atlantic City event, and that was the last time I spoke to you. Since then, the accumulation of 30 years pursuing an impossible goal - or to be precise, pursuing two goals which are mutually impossible to fulfill - had become an overbearing weight from which I had to escape. The two goals I refer to that a premie has to fulfill are these: The inner goal of finding their heart or center, and the outer goal of being connected with you. The essence of your message for 30 years has been that you need to pursue both goals, and that you cannot get one without the other. I see now that achieving these two goals together is an impossible task. It is quite possible to achieve either goal on its own. I believe that the first goal, the human search for ultimate meaning and freedom within the human consciousness, is both possible and a worthwhile endeavour; in doing this, other people can be teachers, but no other person can become the master to whom you dedicate your life. It is also of course possible to attain the second goal - a connection with you as a person, devotion to you as the Master. For most premies this meant being near you physically, or at least having access to you; selling family and career to be with you at an event on the other side of the world, selling anything to be seated near you, and so on. A particularly virulent form of this devotion was the urge to be in the inner circle around you. During my 30 years as a premie I have observed this phenomenon closely and intimately - sometimes from the inside, as someone in the inner circle, but usually from the outside, as someone who was trying desperately to climb up the ladder to the inner circle. The interesting thing about this phenomenon, is that I really did not want to be near you, or rub shoulders with other inner circle players - I only did so because I thought it was the passport to the first goal of inner contentment. I now see that it actually prevented inner contentment. Ironic. So that in a nutshell is why I no longer consider you my master, nor practice your Knowledge. The first goal of inner discovery I have always wanted, and still want. I took you as my master to help me fulfill that goal, which you promised to do; but you introduced another goal, centered around yourself, which in fact made it impossible to fulfill the first goal. Unfortunately, for 30 years I accepted your message that the second goal of a connection or devotion to you was necessary to attain the first goal. To see and logically understand the dynamics of the last 30 years is one thing, but of course there is a lot of emotion and feeling too. As I have said, there were good times and profound experiences. At the time, I thought the deep experiences I had were due to your grace; now I think they were due to my grace, meaning that I had them independently of you. I did of course learn much from you; the problem is that I had to invest so much - way too much - to learn what I did. So my predominant feeling now is one of grief and anger. I grieve for the last 30 years: for the careers given up to be ready to go anywhere anytime to do your bidding; for the relationships given up to be in the ashram or 'available for service'; for the money given up in order to be free of ego (I gave you a house, inheritances, wages and enough spare cash over 30 years that would have left me financially comfortable for the rest of my life had I not given it all to you.) I grieve for a book I wrote that was suppressed after writing it, because the initial suggestion for writing it came from your brother SatPal. I grieve for the lost thoughts and dreams, my own thoughts, lost because they were not allowed to exist in a premie, otherwise he was 'in his mind'. I grieve for what might have been, had I not been marching up a dead-end alley, all the time proclaiming to myself and the world that I was marching along the golden highway to liberation. I grieve for all the people that I tried so earnestly to convince that this dead-end alley was the glorious road that they should be marching on too. I am not sure how you see yourself these days. Do you see yourself still as the Perfect Master, needing of course to tone it down for public consumption, but still the living embodiment of that grace, without which no one can really benefit from the Knowledge techniques ? Or do you privately think of that as a Hindu myth, and you are content to live off it - and live very well off it, like a family business, as your detractors maintain ? Or was it a gradual change over the years from one to the other ? To be honest, I don't really care - my grief is felt and expressed, and now I intend to move on. As the English expression says, there is no point in crying over spilt milk. Although I left you 18 months ago (I first publicly posted on the ex-premie Forum in January 2001) it has taken me these 18 months to fully extricate myself from your influence. So I thank you for the good times; for all the rest, and the grief I have expressed in this letter, I drop them from my shoulders - thus ! The dream I had before I met you, I still have; and I am going for it, unencumbered and feeling very much lighter. -- Mike

Subject: Open Letter's section on EPO From: Jean-Michel To: Mike Finch Date Posted: Mon, Jun 24, 2002 at 06:48:06 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: is on the 'Best of Forum' page: Open Letters to M and EV Thank you Mike.

Subject: J-M, we're talking about this post From: JHB To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Tues, Jun 25, 2002 at 14:09:23 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Nottingham Bunny and I thought this means you have put Mike's post on the Open Letters page. Of course it should be there. All the best, John.

Subject: Re: Open Letter's section on EPO From: Nottm Bunny To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Mon, Jun 24, 2002 at 13:40:56 (PDT) Email Address: NottmBunny@aol.com Message: Hi Jean-Michel, Thanks for the link but I cannot find Mike's letter on the page. Could you put it under his name? Thanks, Bunny

Subject: Which one ? From: Jean-Michel To: Nottm Bunny Date Posted: Tues, Jun 25, 2002 at 00:19:49 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I can process only forum threads once they're in the archives. When has that letter been posted ?

Subject: Mike's letter's not there From: JHB To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Tues, Jun 25, 2002 at 00:42:00 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: J-M, What Bunny means is that the link to Mike's letter is not where you said it is. All the best, John.

Subject: Again: which mike/letter/date? From: Jean-Michel To: JHB Date Posted: Tues, Jun 25, 2002 at 01:51:51 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: M Finch's, M Donner's ? Date posted ? The one posted a couple of days ago CAN'T be there, it's still on the forum.

Subject: Nice letter Mike From: PatD To: Mike Finch Date Posted: Sun, Jun 23, 2002 at 13:45:10 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ...a lot nicer than the one I would've written had I given the guy a house etc. Still,I'd rather be me than him.It's impossible to put oneself in the shoes of someone who has been so spectacularly fucked up since infancy.Maybe that doesn't matter so much in India. East is East & West is West & never the twain shall meet. That's a cosmic joke isn't it, the end product of a lifelong process of allegiance to an inported religion,is someone(myself),who believes that a long dead Imperialist poet was right. All the best to you.

Subject: Re: From: bill To: Mike Finch Date Posted: Sun, Jun 23, 2002 at 12:20:15 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Mike Finch, Hope you dont mind that it is us reading your mail and not perhaps him. Although, he must wander through sometimes. It IS about him. I am not convinced yet that he or any of those hindu/buddist types ever and I do mean EVER 'find thier center'. Everyone deals with this onslaught of sight and sound ect from various vantage points that cannot be made constant. There appears to be no 'there' that is the goal. There appears to be no escape from our human nature and our limits. There appears to be no zone of safety no matter what one does. Even those that dedicate thier lives to god in some fashion are not winning an exemption card from the troubles and dilemmas we face. Seems like those that say, 'hey, the IT is inside' are just flat out wrong. As Joan apter said, she didnt experience anything in meditation. I think raja ji, the lords cocaine cowboy brother, would agree. Those that claim to have actually gotten somewhere samadhi-like inside, they end up doing some embarassing behaviours that cant stand the light of day and are not able to be rationalized by those that believed them. knowing prem in person left a disgusted feeling in those like Mike Dettmers and Mike Donner. All around, there appears to be nothing to gain from prem rawats methods, of his freindship. a double loss with no redeeming angles !! Just all around ugly

Subject: Thank you Mike From: Richard To: Mike Finch Date Posted: Sun, Jun 23, 2002 at 11:42:30 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Mike, I feel I know you after reading that letter. It takes tremendous courage to let your thoughts and feelings come forth and even greater courage to share them with us. Thank you for that and for giving anyone who reads your words the opportunity to see M's world through your eyes. I would like to see your letter become a permanent part of EPO in the ***Best of Forum*** section. All the best to you in your continued fulfillment of the dream before M. Richard

Subject: Re: An Open Letter to Maharaji From: Vicki To: Mike Finch Date Posted: Sun, Jun 23, 2002 at 11:36:26 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Bravo, Mike! Very well said.

Subject: Re: An Open Letter to Maharaji From: PatC To: Mike Finch Date Posted: Sun, Jun 23, 2002 at 10:56:53 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks, Mike. I'm sending a copy of this to our mutual premie friends in Gloucestershire. I hope your 18 months out of the cult has been as exciting and happy as mine has. Yes, our involvement with Rawat did damage us financially and psychologically, curtailed a lot of our careers, tainted our family ties and stifled our creativity and growth but the future looks better all the time. I wish all the best.

Subject: Re: An Open Letter to Maharaji From: michael donner To: PatC Date Posted: Mon, Jun 24, 2002 at 17:35:43 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: its always hard for me to speak about what i think i might have missed out on as a result of being in the cult...and ashram for so many years...my mother use to say 'if a frog had wings it wouldn't bump its rump every time it tried to jump'...god bless her...and...'looking back is for fools'...the home spun wisdom of that generation. like, maybe i missed out on getting aids through lack of sex. or all those years of animal fat or hormones in meat...or a career that lead to too much drinking...or a broken marraige...or who the fuck knows what really. personally, i still do not measure success by the money made or lost..or lost or gained years of ladder climbing in the corporate world. i did learn that i do not need a guru, and i do not want to give my power away anymore...to anyone...that i want to continue to learn to assume full responsibility for my life and completely remove blame from my frame of reference in all my relationships. these are major learning that resulted from my years (in good part) in the cult. and of course, learning painfully is not pleasant...so now i request to learn the lessons of life without the pain...but wow does that require paying attention to the early signals that situations give out. oh, and i was wondering, in the context of mike finch's letter..if anyone knows how to get a letter to m these days...email or otherwise...does his web site give a 'contact' ? i have never looked at his web site...i doubt it would.

Subject: How to get a letter to the Maha From: cq To: michael donner Date Posted: Tues, Jun 25, 2002 at 11:38:47 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The Prem Rawat Foundation P.O. Box 241498 Los Angeles, CA 90024 Tel: +1 (310) 392-5700 Fax: +1 (310) 388-3231 whether it ever gets read is another matter ...

Subject: Re: How to get a letter to the Maha From: Nottm Bunny To: cq Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 27, 2002 at 14:01:51 (PDT) Email Address: NottmBunny@aol.com Message: Hi Chris, No letter ever sent this way gets to M as Mike Finch well knows. A sure fire way was always through Patrick or Cathy Glebe but you have to a) be known by them b) probably still need to be in the club c) the missive would have to be handed to either of them personally ...... for that route. Thought Mike can satisfy a he fails b miserably on a very public level now and he would have to attend or have an emissary go to an event for c. Bunny

Subject: Well done Mike... From: Dermot To: Mike Finch Date Posted: Sun, Jun 23, 2002 at 10:40:36 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: as usual with grace, honesty and care. I phoned my daughter the other day for a chat about this and that. Her mother, still a premie, answered first so we exchanged a brief but hearty 'hello, how're ya getting on'. Quite a while into the talk with my daughter I heard someone shouting something in the background. My daughter passed on the message : 'There's a programme in Brighton....are you going?' Without maliciousness, bitterness or any negativity I just said 'Oh, I don't follow him anymore ...I just follow my own direction'. The good thing about it was I really meant it. Really. Yep, there were good times...sometimes amazing times......we shouldn't forget that. Nevertheless, truth must out. To use that(perhaps) now hackneyed phrase.....'To thine own self be true...' Cheers Dermot

Subject: Re: An Open Letter to Maharaji From: Pat W To: Mike Finch Date Posted: Sun, Jun 23, 2002 at 10:11:47 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I have just read Mike's very clear letter and it inspires me with these thoughts. 1- Mike's tone is respectful thus something that Maharaji might just consider reading. 2- Maharaji knows Mike personally and goes back a long way with him - thus another reason he might read it. 3- I have been thinking of writing a similar letter and also would like to think it would be written with a similarly frank and respectful tone and yet without compromising my honest feelings and judgements. Maharaji would possibly remember me personally too since I have had some personal dealings with him. I wonder waht he would make of all these leeters if he actually sat down and read them. How would he feel? 4-I think that there must be quite a few others who would like to express themselves to Maharaji within this sort of letter. 5 - Mikes letter is highly representative of other people's feelings too. I absolutely could relate to what he writes and to some extent would say almost exactly the same things. Thank you Mike, you expressed my sentiments very well. 6- Mike's letter and those of others could maybe be posted on special section of the EPO website -perhaps entitled 'Personal Open Letters to Maharaji' where they stand a chance of eventually being noticed by Maharaji himself (who is, let's face it, rather notorious for not responding to letters that he is sent by snail mail). Certainly if there were enough letters they would virtually amount to a petition of sorts which may be deemed worthy of some sort of response. Even if that response was insincere - ie. to appear as having addressed people's issues conscientiously without actually doing so -it would be something. 7- Mike's letter must represent some frustration at his being unable to express himself to Maharaji directly. Others including myself, have poured out their hearts in letters to Maharaji, sent them to him in the post or popped them into recepticles at Darshan lines which say 'Letters to Maharaji' and suchlike. My one that I wrote at Amaroo was a cathartic exercise for me and I don't mind saying that I shed some tears over it, however that I very much doubt if it was ever read by M personally. But to me it contained important and sincere things that I wanted Maharaji in person to read. So this just impresses me that it would be very useul to create a page where these things could reside to serve as a powerful testimony of people's feelings. 8- Maybe Mike would feel different, but I would welcome a meeting with Maharaji where we could at least tell him all these kinds of feelings and where he would have a chance to give his replies. The more I read this site the more I feel that some of us are somehow collectively trying to make Maharaji at the very least acknowledge our grievances - I think this may be tied up with feelings that some acknowledgement, apology or explanation would a} be healing for all concerned. Us importantly. b} would help current premies (many whom are cherished old friends) to accept us as not being entirely 'off the wall' and so diminish the bitterness and feelings of resentment that premies feel for 'apostates'. c} would actually be very good for Maharaji himself who has received huge love and devoted support over the years from people who maybe still have some residual concern that he is not left entirely to the influence of those around him who never dare to significantly challenge what he says or does. In other words people who maybe still care for him a little - or who just feel that their relationship with him is incomplete until he acknowledges their expression. Maybe I haven't put this too well but I hope you catch my drift - I think Mike's letter is very potent in it's honesty and lack of aggression. Maharaji, in my opinion, should address the grief of people like Mike whose lifetime investment in Maharaji has left them feeling this way. Maharaji comes out of all this more as a sort of 'Robert Maxwellian' character who squandered peoples pensions and investments and who was callous enough to not to give a damn about the lives of those he affected, than the Good Shepherd to whom losing one sheep was unthinkable.

Subject: A Good Idea Mike. From: AJW To: Pat W Date Posted: Sun, Jun 23, 2002 at 11:52:10 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Mike, Hope all is well round the other side of the world. I think having a place to deposit letters to Captain Rawat is a good idea. I'm sure it would be good for me to write one to him. Don't you think Rawat is more of a Michael Jackson character than Maxwell? Someone who was born into a wierd life to start off with, then became wierder and wierder as the years went by. Also being surrounded by flunkeys never did anyone any good. If they're telling you you're God Almighty too, odds are you're going find your screws are losening and dropping out all by themselves. I think he still believes he's the Perfect Master, doing what his dad did, spreading 'Knowledge to the World'. He could justify his extravagant lifestyle in all sorts of ways. Whaddya think Mike? Anth the extravagant T-shirt. PS. Good to see you got the 'Shift' key fixed and found some CAPS.

Subject: A Good Idea Mike. From: AJW To: Pat W Date Posted: Sun, Jun 23, 2002 at 11:52:05 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Mike, Hope all is well round the other side of the world. I think having a place to deposit letters to Captain Rawat is a good idea. I'm sure it would be good for me to write one to him. Don't you think Rawat is more of a Michael Jackson character than Maxwell? Someone who was born into a wierd life to start off with, then became wierder and wierder as the years went by. Also being surrounded by flunkeys never did anyone any good. If they're telling you you're God Almighty too, odds are you're going find your screws are losening and dropping out all by themselves. I think he still believes he's the Perfect Master, doing what his dad did, spreading 'Knowledge to the World'. He could justify his extravagant lifestyle in all sorts of ways. Whaddya think Mike? Anth the extravagant T-shirt. PS. Good to see you got the 'Shift' key fixed and found some CAPS.

Subject: Re: An Open Letter to Maharaji From: michael donner To: Pat W Date Posted: Sun, Jun 23, 2002 at 10:47:01 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: nice letter mike finch..and thoughts pat w. it is unlikely that m will read this letter from this site..or that anyone around him will print it for him to read. if either of you are interested in m actually reading your thoughts, i suggest you email him directly with your letters/thoughts. wonderful for us to read here however and no doubt good for anyone who reads here that might be on the fence so to speak. thanks for the effort it has taken to both leave the cult and verbalize it so clearly...we all benefit from such effort.

Subject: above two posts are for you Mike D. From: AJW To: michael donner Date Posted: Sun, Jun 23, 2002 at 11:53:49 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: There's an echo in this thread by the way. Anth, don't ask.

Subject: Re: above two posts are for you Mike D. From: michael donner To: AJW Date Posted: Mon, Jun 24, 2002 at 17:20:24 (PDT) Email Address: mmdonner@shaw.ca Message: hi anth, not sure who maxwell is but m seems a lot like michael jackson (as you describe, at least)...born into a weird situation that got increasingly worse as he had to prove himself separate from his mother and older brother(s)...and then surely surrounded by devotees saying yes, yes yes all the time added fuel to the fire then the self fulfilling prophesy stuff added even more fuel to that fire...backed himself into corner by repeating so often his ownership of knowledge and the singularity of his 'gift' and message. wow...self delusion sort of...but probably more likely just pride at this point...major pride issue of having to stand by his previous statements of the purpose in his life and all like that. my two bits on the subject...but what the hell do i know...just the way it seems to me. hoping you are well anth!

Subject: Re; Robert Maxwell (OT) From: The Falcon To: michael donner Date Posted: Fri, Jun 28, 2002 at 02:59:14 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Robert Maxwell was a UK media baron (our very own Citizen Kane)who used the pensions of all his workers as his personal fund and spent the lot. An ill-mannered, despicable tyrant who drowned off the coast of Tenerife (conspiracy theories abound still!)by falling off his boat. Hence the following joke; What is the similarity between Robert Maxwell and an Essex girl? They both end up, stark naked, flat on their back , the first night in Tenerife. (Cultural reference;- Tenerife is/was a holiday resort for the less-cultured Brits, particularly popular with Essex slappers)

Subject: wow so lovely Mike From: Loaf To: Mike Finch Date Posted: Sun, Jun 23, 2002 at 07:46:40 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: So good to read 'closure' expressed so clearly and honestly. Wonderful. Love to you Ian

Subject: Well said Mike. From: AJW To: Mike Finch Date Posted: Sun, Jun 23, 2002 at 07:26:34 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Mike, That's a great letter. Bet you don't get a reply. The journey away from the Lotus Feet is far more fulfilling, exciting, inspiring, and wholesome, than the journey towards them. On the subject of 'Who does Rawat think he is?', I think he believes he's the living Perfect Master, and I believe all the folk in the inner circle treat him as such. In fact, treating him as an equal is the fast track out the door. He doesn't know what it's like to be normal. Apparently when he has to deal with the general public, one to one, he doesn't do too well. Someone told me he often gets ignored in shops etc. He seems to lack some presence. Anyway, he can't be happy with what's happening to his 'mission'. The numbers are falling, funds are dwindling. As more people discover what he's been up to, the process accelerates. We had a visit from an old-time premie last year (you know him from the Education Ashram). We'd lived in the ashram together, and he was the local community rep. I gave a copy of my 'journey', and lots of Michael Dettmers stuff. He sat down for an hour, read it, and immediately quit. He was like a ripe apple, dropping from a tree. That's the wonderful thing about getting your life back and leaving a cult- it's all a completely natural process. We just have to sit back and enjoy the ride. Anth the flat tire.

Subject: The Here After From: Gregg To: AJW Date Posted: Sun, Jun 23, 2002 at 09:07:02 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Here, after the cult. Y'all are right, the post-Prem experience is a wonderful one - and kudos for recognizing the good along with the bad in the so-called path of Knowledge. Others are not so lucky, you know. I'm not referring to the few doggedly committed PWK's who soldier on with a smile, sure that they are saved and that upon death they will stroll through the Final Darshan Circle to be in the Inner Circle forever, laughing at the poor deluded fools over at EPO. I'm thinking of the billions of people around the world who are one hundred percent certain that they know the One True God (or the Many True Gods, or the reality of sorcerers and evil potions, or whatever). They live without opening fully to what the world has to offer, because their belief requires them to abjure other ways of knowing and being. Belief is the final obstacle to enlightenment.

Subject: Re: The Here After From: Tim G To: Gregg Date Posted: Sun, Jun 23, 2002 at 13:04:54 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'Belief is the final obstacle of enlightenment' I don't know about 'final' but it certainly is a mighty obstacle as it immediately divides us. So many people all think THEY know 'The Truth' or 'are saved'. What a farce. Thanx for your insight.

Subject: Englightenment From: AJW To: Tim G Date Posted: Sun, Jun 23, 2002 at 13:11:45 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Tim, My old mum always used to say, 'Belief that there is such a thing as 'Englightenment', is the main obstacle to Enlightenment. Anth the men zonked

Subject: Can't argue with that, Anth the Sage (nt) From: Gregg To: AJW Date Posted: Mon, Jun 24, 2002 at 12:29:51 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: You mean Anth the pickled onion (nt) From: AJW To: Gregg Date Posted: Tues, Jun 25, 2002 at 04:24:14 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: soaking safe in my vinegar bath

Subject: Some quotes to consider From: Richard To: All Date Posted: Sat, Jun 22, 2002 at 09:41:28 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: A friend recently reminded me of Eric Hoffer, author of True Believer. I ate that book with a spoon in my youth. I did a search that yielded a Freedoms Nest page of Hoffer quotes. Freedoms Nest describes itself as Anti-conservative. Anti-liberal. Pro-freedom. Sounds good to me. Here's a few sample quotes that are applicable here. ____________________________________________________ FAITH Faith in a holy cause is to a considerable extent a substitute for the lost faith in ourselves. It needs fanatical faith to rationalize our cowardice. Those of little faith are of little hatred. FANATICISM Add a few drops of malice to a half truth and you have an absolute truth. The opposite of the religious fanatic is not the fanatical atheist but the gentle cynic who cares not whether there is a god or not. FREEDOM The aspiration toward freedom is the most essentially human of all human manifestations. Those who lack the capacity to achieve much in an atmosphere of freedom will clamor for power. PROSELYTIZING Proselytizing is more a passionate search for something not yet found than a desire to bestow upon the world something we already have. It is a search for a final and irrefutable demonstration that our absolute truth is indeed the one and only truth. The proselytizing fanatic strengthens his own faith by converting others. TRUE BELIEVERS The impression somehow prevails that the true believer, particularly the religious individual, is a humble person. The truth is that the surrendering and humbling of the self breeds pride and arrogance. ____________________________________________________ Hmmm. Who woulda thunk it? Eric Hoffer quotes www.freedomsnest.com/qhoffer.html

Subject: Re: Some quotes to consider From: Neville To: Richard Date Posted: Sun, Jun 23, 2002 at 09:13:27 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I woulda, plenty of times. Not impressed. On the basis of those quotes I'd say Hoffer is not as clever as he thinks. How do you like this one: 'An idea is something you have; an ideology is something that has you.' --Morris Berman Neville

Subject: Re: Ideology From: Richard To: Neville Date Posted: Sun, Jun 23, 2002 at 10:51:44 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hmmm, maybe I am too easily impressed as I saw truth in Hoffer's take on these subjects. Yes, I do like the Berman quote you posted. Here's my gilded lily spin on it. When an idea becomes ideology, it leads to idolatry. Richard, two bit philosopher and ideological has-been-had

Subject: No more european translation provided From: Mirror To: All Date Posted: Sat, Jun 22, 2002 at 06:06:28 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Only a couple of years ago, M's programs in Europe, especially the big ones in Italy where simultaneously translated into at least 10 different languages, if not more. These days however, headsets are only practical if you speak italian. Mirror. --- --- --- --- Maharaji has accepted an invitation to speak at an event in Rome. The event is reserved to those who have received the techniques of Self-Knowledge. Date July 29th, at 5 PM Venue Teatro Sistina via Sistina 129 Rome, Italy Registration Priority will be given to participants from Italy, but there are a number of seats available for guests from outside of Italy. Online registration for participants from outside of Italy will be open starting from July 5th. Pre-registration is required. To register, please connect to www.bestway.info All participants coming from outside of Italy will need a Smart Card to register for the event. Translation will be provided in Italian only. For any further enquiries: cor2002@genie.it

Subject: How about translating him into English? From: Cynthia To: Mirror Date Posted: Mon, Jun 24, 2002 at 12:08:48 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Just amusing myself... Cynthia

Subject: actually Cynthia From: Jethro To: Cynthia Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 27, 2002 at 01:22:30 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: you have made a salient point. And..........thanks for making me laugh. Jethro

Subject: Re: No more european translation provided From: CPG To: Mirror Date Posted: Sun, Jun 23, 2002 at 08:51:23 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: What seems to have escaped the attention of those on this forum is an apparent change to have programs primarily for local people, thus the smaller venues. When people are discouraged from traveling to events outside their area much smaller venues are required. Many events in the past were filled will people doing 'service' and others traveling from far away. Both of these categories have been dramatically reduced, resulting in smaller more intimate events in many cases only for local people. Thus smaller venues does not indicate a reduction in interest.

Subject: the protection of belief From: Livia To: CPG Date Posted: Tues, Jun 25, 2002 at 01:07:11 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: CPG, I wrote a post a few days ago describing how homeopaths rationalise to protect the supposed effectiveness of homeopathy. If it cures - great! Homeopathy works! If it doesn't cure - fine! The patient didn't respond to the treatment/needs to get worse before he can get better, etc etc. Similarly, if Maharaji holds large programmes - great! Knowledge is spreading like wildfire! If he holds small programmes - great! Lovely and intimate. In both cases, the subject of the central belief remains unthreatened and intact, saying far more about the believer's need to believe than about the authenticity of what they believe... Or has this never occurred to you? Livia

Subject: Re: No more european translation provided From: Bolly To: CPG Date Posted: Sun, Jun 23, 2002 at 13:35:43 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: So are you saying that the objective is to have intimate gatherings of like minded sorry spirited, people who will thus be enabled to exchange views on personal growth? It sounds potentially quite interesting. People who have practised k or personal growth for some years and found the only change in their lives is that outsiders regard them as cult members could discuss this with m. The leader guru or teacher whatever could maybe reassure his followers that the past thirty years have not been an excersize in growing his own bank balance, but in benefiting humanity. Somehow I doubt that is his objective. All venues cost and if there is no guaranteed return m is not going to rent a place just to break even and go away feeling warm inside. Warm feelings don't keep that lifestyle afloat hard cash does. Explain why there are less people travelling and doing service, is it because there are more people telling m to take a hike? Is it that even active and sincere attendees are beggining to feel just a little bit ridiculous about bowing down at the feet of a mediocre has been listening to a lot of tosh about rolex watches and whatever plane the guy flies? Enjoy your life CPG it might be the only one you get. Think about what Mike Finch has written in his open letter it makes a lot of sense. All the best Bolly

Subject: This is a great comment, Bolly: From: An outsider To: Bolly Date Posted: Mon, Jun 24, 2002 at 19:12:22 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'People who have practised k or personal growth for some years and found the only change in their lives is that outsiders regard them as cult members could discuss this with m.' Stonor (a family name)

Subject: Re: No more european translation provided From: CPG To: Bolly Date Posted: Sun, Jun 23, 2002 at 17:42:13 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Whatever M's real incentive is to do smaller more intimate events obviously doesn't interest you, but anyone with a hint of understanding of basic economics would see that large events make more money than small events. I have worked at a lot of events and have seen the full final costs and revenue of many different types. The kinds that made the most were 'mega' events, multi day events that he stopped doing years ago in the US. The under 1000 people events struggle to break even, as costs per person are so much higher. Plus if he ever personally profited from an event the IRS would close down Elan Vital and prosecute Maharaji at least by the next yearly audit. As to why there are so many fewer people doing service, its because M drastically reduced the number of people doing service- I was one of many whose position was eliminated. As i understand him, it is his desire to simplify the operations, and to have mostly people there to listen at events, not to work at them. In the past many smaller events were mostly people doing service; it was ridiculous. People aren't traveling to the non-local events as much because he isn't advertising them, and they likely couldn't get in if they did come. I can understand a some of the critisism on here, but this argument of having events to make money is just not an intelligent argument. He has astounded me for years by doing primarily events that are destined to lose money, at least until some deep-pocketed premie bails it out to a break-even only after the event. First of all, if he has the kind of wealth claimed on EPO event revenue is peanuts to him and legally untouchable. Secondly if he did have events to generate cash he would have mutli day events in the US and Europe only. Why do small events at all; why do events in any third-world countries where he spends a considerable amount of time, where they can't even pay fully for the event costs. Think a little before posting this kind of drivel. I am enjoying my life and hope you are too. Cheers

Subject: Re: No more european translation provided From: Bolly To: CPG Date Posted: Mon, Jun 24, 2002 at 11:58:41 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi CPG You make it sound like he does it from the goodness of his heart. Do you ever go to regular theatre productions? For the £35 'donation' to attend the Barbican event you could pay on the day and enjoy at least 3 performances by proffessional actors. Enjoy the words of great writers and get a drink in the bar. My local theatre doesn't search the patrons so if the performance fails to please I am free to shoot the actors, can't do that at a marj gig so where's the fun? Did you get a redundancy payout after years of faithfull service? All the best Bolly

Subject: Events losing Rawat's gain From: Jean-Michel To: CPG Date Posted: Mon, Jun 24, 2002 at 09:07:19 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I've also been involved in dozens and maybe more events' administration, and I can tell you why events are so costly ! Because of the huge costs of the master's housing (and other expenses due to his 'special' personnality, NEEDS etc), and to the huge fees of Visions' people and other administrators/coordinators of the master's party. Do you have any idea of the amount of these invoices ? Would EV (who claims transparency on his websites) publish the detail of each event's budget ? I bet not. The renting of the hall and the actual expenses in the city where the events happen is a small fraction of an event's cost, believe me. The rest goes straight to EV/Visions account, and the cash is carried by the members' of the master's party ($10,000 each).

Subject: Re: Events losing Rawat's gain From: CPG To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Mon, Jun 24, 2002 at 17:47:55 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: More misinformation...i know EXACTLY what those invoices are from many many events. Visions doesn't get paid for events...an unaffiliated production company does for certain technical services...I have figured out their hourly charges and they are well below industry standards. Those few guys are full time and have to eat and pay rent too. The personal expenses are certainly not budget rooms, but more like corporate rooms. These two items together still make only a small tho significant dent in the budget. There are the same expenses as at any kind of event- hall rental, equipment rental, subcontractors, ticketing, etc etc. It adds up fast, even with primarily volunteer labor, and even tho especially lately there have been efforts at severe cost cutting. EV gets whats left over, which often is nothing, and Visions gets nothing...they recieve revenue from video sales and now broadcast support. The IRS has access to all of these figures and audits regularily....They are not shy about shutting non-profits down at the slightest irregularity. Are these bogus statements innocent missinformation or a sorry attempt at a smear? Bollys previous response to me shows clearly he isn't interested in the truth; the response had nothing to do with the issue and was barely legible.

Subject: You don't know anything I guess From: Jean-Michel To: CPG Date Posted: Tues, Jun 25, 2002 at 00:22:08 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: How much is a video charged when showed at an 'event' with Mr Rawat ?

Subject: To CPG-event promotion From: The Falcon To: CPG Date Posted: Mon, Jun 24, 2002 at 01:47:44 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Although I am certain that Maharaji still makes his money from donations and ,of course, 'investments' (The Perfect Investor??)don't try and tell me that the upcoming public event at The Barbican in London for £35 per head is a lost-leader, I know a lot about event promotion and production and can assure you that a capacity audience at this event will generate a profit of approx 45% of the total revenue. One proviso though, the captain's fee for services rendered entered under 'travel expenses' (one must have an experienced pilot after all, even if the speaker is boring you've still got to get him there and the 'dog and pony show' is what they all want-that is their drug)could swiftly gobble this up in excellent tax-free and legal fashion. How much do you donate on a monthly basis (I don't expect an answer)?, let's say £100 for the average PWK in UK from the hardcore '70s brigade (1000 at most) whose kids have grown up and actually have a disposable income, none of the K-Lite lot will donate much so there is no point factoring them in,this is £100,000 per month from the Old ( and I do mean old) Colonials alone. To maintain this level of personal donations, and I know from my 'devotee' pals from this brigade that theirs are personal donations, he must keep the show on the road just like The Rolling Stones (very undignified). Remember, Maharaji has some very smart advisers who have helped him go from guru to 'investor' very successfully, do you not think that they have covered this base as well. The smart move for any businessman is to keep the core revenue rolling because, as it says on all Financial Services advertising in UK, 'investments can go up and down' Loving Life with gratitude placed in the right place. The Falcon (out looking for rabbits)

Subject: Re: To CPG-event promotion From: CPG To: The Falcon Date Posted: Mon, Jun 24, 2002 at 17:55:34 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You know a lot about event promotion and yet you assume all events have the exact same fixed costs and profit margin??? uh huh. My ten year old could figure out that is hogwash. Please xplain how Rawat profits personnaly from events, by charging for his flying services or whatever, and gets this by the IRS? You know this for a fact, yet the IRS which has full access to EV books and are trained accounting investigators can't figure this out? They live to bust people like this. If he is such a good investor why would he break the law for peanuts? Does anyone really buy this crap???

Subject: Re: To CPG-event promotion From: The Falcon To: CPG Date Posted: Tues, Jun 25, 2002 at 08:20:09 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I have replied below to you and Gerry but just some examples;- Al Capone Rajneesh Sun Myung Moon next........???? I am sure your 10 year old will figure out that Maharaji is the real hogwash, how will you feel about that. ground him/her, stop the pocket money, therapy?? Keep your kids out of this discussion, have some respect for innocence.

Subject: Re: To CPG-event promotion From: gerry To: CPG Date Posted: Mon, Jun 24, 2002 at 18:57:00 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: If he is such a good investor why would he break the law for peanuts? Does anyone really buy this crap??? You pals of Prem say he's a good investor. I think he's a con man who made his millions on the backs of devotee's labor and donations. I have no problem believing this 'good investor' makes money out of these events. And given his demonstrated willingness to break the law, I wouldn't be at all surprised if there were 'tax irregularities' involved in this 'event' scam.

Subject: Re: To CPG and Gerry From: The Falcon To: gerry Date Posted: Tues, Jun 25, 2002 at 08:13:08 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks Gerry, you took the words out of my mouth, I have never felt that M. is/was a good investor, just advised well. I would like to meet CPG's 10 year old, is he lined up for SK yet? CPG, not all events have the the same M.O. just the professional ones, I am so pleased to have rattled your cage. Without malice!!! You are dealing with a very greedy 'master' (who loves 'peanuts')and your 'heart' must know that.

Subject: Venue Teatro Sistina From: PatD To: Mirror Date Posted: Sat, Jun 22, 2002 at 18:07:54 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yes,the days when he could fill the Palazzo delle Sporte are gone. He won't give up though.I hink I might be starting to feel sorry for him,he's fucked up in spades & the people who go to see him are just encouraging the delusion. I was.

Subject: This is good news! From: JHB To: Mirror Date Posted: Sat, Jun 22, 2002 at 12:50:04 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The fewer people who can understand what he says the better:) I sent them an email asking if translation into Latvian is available. John

Subject: Programme in UK. From: AJW To: JHB Date Posted: Sun, Jun 23, 2002 at 07:05:44 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi John, I heard the Captain is jetting to boost the falling morale of the declining flock of faithful in the UK in a couple of weeks. I think this is the 'Closing the Stable Door After the Horse Has Bolted' Tour. Ah well, one positive aspect of the falling numbers is, at least the remaining cult-drones will be able to sit nearer the front,- but not near enough to smell the cognac I fear. Anth, Salvage and Recycled Wood To Order.

Subject: Re: This is good news! From: Vicki To: JHB Date Posted: Sat, Jun 22, 2002 at 14:59:26 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: They trying to keep everyone but the locals from coming?

Subject: Re: This is good news! From: JHB To: Vicki Date Posted: Sat, Jun 22, 2002 at 15:08:17 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: They trying to keep everyone but the locals from coming? --- Vicki, No, they want everyone to come but all the translators have become ex-premies:) John.

Subject: re: beware not an ex From: Not an ex To: All Date Posted: Fri, Jun 21, 2002 at 22:34:50 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks for the warning. But I find alot of eloquent, humorous and well thought out posts here. Alot of hatred too, but I understand that everyone has to work that out and it's great that you are here for each other. I already have many doubts, and I haven't read anything here that I haven't heard before. I am not an ex but I wouldn't call myself a premie either. I don't think I ever thought of Maharaji as the Lord of the universe, but I have had alot of experiences and can't deny that when listening to him, something still rings true for me. I don't particularly like him as a person and haven't for some time. I'm not interested in supporting him or his message anymore - been there, done that, but don't feel any hatred or regrets either. I feel alot of good has come from this experience, and life is flying by - I don't want to waste any more time on what could have been. I don't associate much with premies anymore, but always go to see Maharaji when he does a program in my area. emperor's new clothes

Subject: Re: re: beware not an ex From: Thorin To: Not an ex Date Posted: Sat, Jun 22, 2002 at 13:53:58 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Not Lots of resonance there - thanks for posting. Obviously in life we all have regrets - some big, some small. Hindsight is a great healer. If I was given the choice again I would still sign up for following my basic instincts, becoming involved in whatever aided my basic instincts and keeping true to my basic instincts. I also come to recognise a basic weakness that I have in being able to be persuaded to follow a path that does not align with my natural instincts - a path that corrupts that natural instinct, a path that does not allow me to become fulfilled as is my natural right. Like many here I am sure you will recognise that the path deemed by Maharaji has hurt plenty for many. There is a need for many to reconcile what has happened over many years to what they believe and know to be true. So yes, lots of eloquence, lots of hatred, lots of questions, lots of thoughts - all proof positive that a reconciliation to the natural instinct we have is being played out. I sense that you are basically a very true person to yourself, true to your family and friends and, perhaps, wish to engage with others. The experience you have had is true and real, it was (and still remains so) true for me - the attibution was false, IMO. I am graudully coming to terms with that false attibution, trying to fully understand it. Please do post again soon, I feel you have a lot to offer many here. If it helps, choose a new screen name and explore with us some of your experiences, some of your journey. You have something valuable to contribute. Expect to listened to, and also expect to be challenged, welcome that challenge, it is after all only words and ideas. Thorin

Subject: Thorin, about this 'experience' From: AJW To: Thorin Date Posted: Sun, Jun 23, 2002 at 06:28:19 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Thorin, You say in your post that, 'The experience you have had is true and real, it was (and still remains so) true for me'. I'm interested in discussing this, if you're up for it. First- isn't every 'experience' true? Experiences are what happen to living things. How can they be 'false'? This leads me onto my second point, which is to question the interpretation of your experience of 'knowledge', because I've come to realise that one of the things that keeps a premie trapped in Rawat's cult is what he or she believes about what they see when they press their eyeballs, hear when they stick their thumbs in their ears, taste when they stick their tongue back, and feel when they concentrate on their breathing. So Thorin, what do you believe that 'light' is that you see when you practice? What do you believe the taste is when you stick your tongue back? What do you believe happens when you follow your breath and stick your thumbs in your ears? Of course there is an experience there, and it's a real, true experience. But what is it an experience of? Is it really our true, deepest, inner self- the 'light of God' as it was once called, or the 'Holy Name', as we were told? I just did the 'light' technique (I can't remember which number it is.) I still see the same bright light I saw when I was a believer. It's the same experience I always had. The only difference is I don't believe any more. I still see it. And anything can be beautiful if you look at it hard enough and suspend judgement ahout it. I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on the matter. Anth the belief

Subject: Re: Thorin, about this 'experience' From: Thorin To: AJW Date Posted: Sun, Jun 23, 2002 at 09:50:47 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi AJW Always happy to engage, thanks for the q's. First off I simply do not know the answers to your excellent questions - I gave up long ago in trying to 'formulate' answers, all I have left are questions :) No, I am being quite honest here. I do not have any answers and do not wish to have any answers. My own personal history has shown that each and every time I come up with any answers they will, in time, be shown to be false and generally misleading - leading me up a blind alley that I need to walk back down again. Prior to receiving knowledge I had lots of answers to the deep meaning of life and these answers I had proved quite useful and sufficient for my purposes generally but was not wholly complete. Like many I bumped into a premie, saw a poster, heard something on the radio (whatever) and was curious. This curiosity led me to a program and then some. I was initially appalled by what I saw (a bunch of unkempt sad hippies, reeking of dope singing their arses of to a little fat Indian kid) but yet a lot of the words that were being spoken struck true and I hung around, received K, and floated around for 24 odd years - until about 3 years ago. All the stuff we believed in (The Lord has come, the grace, SatGuru, the meditation ....) proved just another useful construct through which, apparently, the answers were provided. However I am now clear that this was just another 'construct' that proved at first very powerful but then in time lost its usefulness. Added to this is the extreme discomfort I began to feel in following a person that was directly complicit in things I find morally unjustifiable. Prior to receiving the techniques of meditation I thought that receiving K was some form of initiation ceremony that was, somehow, divinely endowed. Receiving K (or rather being shown 4 second hand yogic techniques) was a big drip for me. However I had, up to that point, invested a considerable amount of time being 'aspirated' and with, doubt firmly suppressed, I continued. Like many I adapted to suit the times and also adapted my view of M but inherently believed him to be the Perfect Master as it suited the construct that was presented, the world view that seemed all encompassing and viable. That was until about three years ago (August 99) when I first came across EPO and realised, woke up to the fact I had been living in a construct, a falsehood and was following a man that had little (if any) personal morals or ethics. The relief of disengaging from him was very positive. Why am I saying all this? Well it comes back to the yogic techniques of meditation and why I came to this thing in the first place. 'Doing' the meditation has, I feel been beneficial to me and has continued to be beneficial to me. But, and now I am getting to your questions, I do not feel practising the light technique, for example, is 'looking' at God. God I tried for many years to believe this to be the case. I believe, that what we see when we practise the light technique is simply electrical impulses directly due to pressing ones eyeballs. Similarly with say nectar - post nasal drip ...... However, for whatever reason, something happens that I find rewarding. It is an experience like many other experiences; it all comes down to choice. Other 'real and true' experiences are, lets choose a few examples at random, getting drunk, having an orgasm, sleeping, being shouted at by ones boss, having a conversation, being angry, listening to music..... It is all about choices, I don't like getting angry so try not to, and I like getting slightly pissed but no longer like getting dead drunk. I certainly like having orgasms. In the same way I like having the 'experience' gained from using some thousand year old meditation techniques. I find that by using them the impact it has on me has a deeply calming affect, some profound experiences seem to come through and other apparently 'divine' things. However I have no illusions about all this and I do not wish or want to develop a construct that purports to show this to be 'the hand of god'. I simply have no evidence that this is the case. Purely rationally I would tend to believe in the scientific explanation in that 'this experience' is a neurotheological experience caused by a peculiar but rather wonderful set of complex chemical reactions in my brain. Obviously the meditation techniques are horribly wrapped up, in our minds, with Knowledge which itself is horribly wrapped up with M. Disassociating all this has been very difficult. The easier way out was to simply stop meditating (and which incidentally I have done several times since 1973/4) and forget all about it. However I do enjoy whatever it is that comes about from meditating and wish to continue doing so. My challenge is to finally throw off any final associations meditation has with FatGuru (oh sorry that was a type!). Perhaps an easier way was to collect a bunch of other techniques and use them - however I like these ones and have practiced them so feel reasonably comfortable with them. It would be nice if there was an easier way - maybe I should get one of those helmet thingies. Anyway a long unnecessary rambling post responding to some simple questions you posed. There are no 'false' experiences, just lifestyle choices leading to 'experiences'. Cheers, Thorin

Subject: Re: Thorin, about this 'experience' From: Robyn To: Thorin Date Posted: Wed, Jun 26, 2002 at 20:20:01 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dear Thorin, Lordy, I just posted a reply and it was eaten by cyber-demons! Basicly I just said that I still meditate on light but haven't used my hands in many years. Sometimes it just starts as I am trying to fall asleep. Once it got so intense and wonderful that I tried to stop it so I could sleep and couldn't. If I am meditating and nothing is happening I will sometimes put the tip of my index finger on 'my third eye' to help me focus there but that is it so no pressing of the optic nerve to explain away the experience I have which is quite wonderful and yes, calming. Just so you know, I don't think of it as god either. I always thought of it as just something that people, and goodness knows maybe animals can do. Hi Anth. Love, Robyn

Subject: light and falling asleep From: Livia To: Robyn Date Posted: Tues, Jul 02, 2002 at 00:57:14 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Robyn, that happens to me too - exactly the same. No need for any technique, this very peaceful-making light just comes and soothes me off to sleep. I don't know what it is either and it isn't always there, which is mysterious, but it quite often is. No need to have any concepts about it - best just appreciate it.. Livia

Subject: Hi Robyn (ot) From: AJW To: Robyn Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 27, 2002 at 10:05:16 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Robyn, Hope all is well with you and yours. I think of you every time I reach for the Ricola tin. (about every ten minutes). 'Ricola. Bonbon Suisse aux plantes. Bienfaisant. Adoucissant. Rafraichissant' Take care Anth the Adoucissant

Subject: Re: Hi Robyn (ot) From: Robyn To: AJW Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 27, 2002 at 19:48:54 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dear Anth, Yes, I am 'thinking' of you now! I've had a crazy week and am just getting home from work at 11pm. One more day and then it is supposed to be a great weekend weather wise. :) I'll find a creek and a rock and bring my ricola tin and think of you. :) Hope all is well with you and yours also. Hey, I can't find it if I wrote it down but you mentioned once a children's series similar but you thought better then the Harry Potter series. I want to see if I can get it for my nephew. I am also VERY patienly waiting for your next installment or do I have to wait and by the book! :) Seriously though, it was great. Love, Robyn the knackered and learning English as my 2nd language :)

Subject: Thanks Thorin. From: AJW To: Thorin Date Posted: Sun, Jun 23, 2002 at 12:09:18 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thorin, Thanks for that honest and thoughtful post. You story sounds similar to my own. (I've put a link in.) Do you have any consciousness, or awareness of having been in, or maybe still being in a Moonie type cult? (I hope you don't mind me digging around like this. Say so if you do.) I just read your post again, and you mentioned a 'drip', so maybe you read my Journey already. On the subject of doing the techniques, have you ever tried giving them up for a few months and seeing what happened? If you did, what happened? Also Thorin, you said you didn't have any answers to my questions, and that you didn't want any either. Why is that? Would it make any difference if the patterns you see when you press your eyes are simply retinal activity stimulated by pressing your eyeball? Would it matter if the sound you heard when you did the 'sound technique' was only blood rushing over your eardrums? (Ever put a seashell to your ear and heard the sea?) If it did turn out to be as I suggest, it wouldn't change the experience would it? Come on Thorin, give it a bash. What do you think those bloody patterns are that you see when you press your eyes? Anth the beligerantly persistant.

Subject: Re: Thanks Thorin. From: Thorin To: AJW Date Posted: Sun, Jun 23, 2002 at 13:47:06 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dear Anth (the beligerantly persistant!) Time is short at the moment - two daughters clamouring for my attention! - so gotta rush a response if you don't mind. Did I ever feel I was in a cult like the Moonies? Yep always. In fact a far worse cult than the Moonies as they were so odd and OTT that it was easy to recognise them as a cult. Whareas with M and premiedom there was (and still is) an insidious makeover that pretends to be normal and that is used for the bait and switch move that traps many. I did read your 'journey' some time ago (BTW you did not insert the link as you said u wud) and will read your good stuff again soon. yes drips - lots of them, lots of times - but you know what it is like - never leave room for doubt, believe in the purity of the master blah blah. All the usual stuff that held me in a state of suspended disbelief for so many years. Re the techniques. I thought my previosu post was quite clear but apparently not. Yes the experience of the light technique is only as a direct consequence of retinal activity. Only as a result of pressing eyeballs, nothing more. It is NOT divinely ordained or an experience of the supreme primordial energy (what ever the heck that may be!). If anyone would want to debate with me and state that it is anything more I would have problems with that assertion. However, for whatever reason yet to be explained properly by science, meditating, for me, proves to be useful. Yes I could come up with some hypothysis (sp?) that explains why meditation is useful and perhaps if proper research was applied this hypothysis could turn into theory. I am, however, not a scientist and have other more important things to do so choose not to go down the road of proving anything. I have no allusions about meditation - they are just techniques (alhough pretty powerful at that) and pretty much any technique will do. If standing in a bucket of salt water does it then I would do that. :) Give up meditating. Oh yes many times and for long periods. What happened? Nothing much drastic - I simply did not meditate. Life continued quite merrily, my world did not fall about, the moon continued its usual orbit - I did not experience the particular calm and depth that comes from meditation. I come back to meditation because it is enjoyable, because it is an useful yogic exercise. It is a lifestyle choice (as I mentioned before)- without it life is still great - particularly now I do not or will not follow some bankrupt belief system expoused by Mr Rawat. Anth, if it is labels you want I am firmly an EX (as many here will testify), your posts to me seem to indicate that you think I am holding onto some belief system that is not good for me. When I said I did not want to come up with answers it was in relation to the meaning of life, the purpose of our existance. M supposedly gives answers to this, I now know this is not the case and having 'looked around' elsewhere see that no one else provides such asnswers. I can give lots of answers to rational questions, like 2+2=? or what happens if you press your eyballs. For me life, now, is just getting on with it. Part of the joy is the slaying of the q&a sessions. warmly, Thorin

Subject: The stick. From: AJW To: Thorin Date Posted: Sun, Jun 23, 2002 at 16:22:55 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks again Thorin. You're right. I did get misled by your answer. Also, I'm a bit out of touch with who's who on the forum at the moment. So thanks for clearing all that up. Anth the dropping penny.

Subject: Re: The carrot From: Thorin To: AJW Date Posted: Sun, Jun 23, 2002 at 23:42:21 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Anth When you have the time let me know what you think meditation is and what is 'that experience' Some people report having deep and profound experiences when in the presence of Mr Rawat. What are these experiences? How much is internally generated by the 'experiencer' and how much of this comes from some sort of 'power' that Rotwat has? Thanks, Thorin Start a new thread with your 'answers' - this thread is getting buried fast.

Subject: A question not an ex From: AJW To: Not an ex Date Posted: Sat, Jun 22, 2002 at 09:35:48 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi notan ex Do you believe there is such a thing as a Perfect Master? Anth the Perfect Plaster.

Subject: Re: A question not an ex From: Not an ex To: AJW Date Posted: Sun, Jun 23, 2002 at 08:59:19 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Anth, I really don't know. I thought I did, I thought I devoted my life to him. But now they are all just words. Without going into a long history, I've had knowledge for 24 years - long enough to have heard all of the lord of the universe, arti, surrender the reigns of your life, etc. I was looking for someone to surrender to at the time. I got completely into it - ashram, lots of service - I thought I was home. And I was fine as a humble little ashram premie - happy & having a great experience. But as I climbed the ladder of premie success (ie. getting closer to M personally), the political bullshit was too much for me. The ashrams closed for good & I kept doing service, but like I said earlier, the more I saw of M as a person, the more I didn't like him. the more I remembered that divine connection I felt with a higher power before I received K, the more I knew he wasn't it. But that was when he was saying that he wasn't god anymore, so I was in sync. I got married & had kids and stayed in touch - went to programs when I could and practised K. Still felt that the experience was a positive one. I never understood his lifestyle, my brain would start to short-circuit everytime I tried to think about it. But I'm sure everyone has had teachers in their lives who were real asses, but you were still able to learn from them. I can't deny that my life is for the better from being involved with M. I know you guys don't like to hear that here which is why I never posted. But I'm entitled to my feelings, just as I respect yours. Even though they may be the strangest people I've ever met, I have always had great respect for premies (and exes), because at least they were trying to pursue something real. Maybe we are not as rich financially as our neighbors, or we didn't start our 401K's as early as we should have, but we were trying to experience something real. I don't feel like I was conned, or that this is a scam, or that i am a fool for being open to what he may have to say. I have to follow my gut feelings just like I have done all along. I get most of my info from this website. That's how I heard about TPRF, and Amaroo, and the closing of Visions. So you can all start attacking now if you want to. Sorry I couldn't answer your question.

Subject: Re: A question not an ex From: Bolly To: Not an ex Date Posted: Sun, Jun 23, 2002 at 14:32:31 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You say you have the greatest respect for premies and exes because at least they are persuing something real. Most of the human race is persuing something real, trying to survive. I don't know any recent members of the fold, but in the early days a high proportion of the people getting conned by m were motivated by a real desire not just for personal happiness, whatever that is but also as a route to greater understanding and peace on earth. It sounds niave now to say that when all the peace demos and and what have you seemed to lead nowhere a little fat boy saying look inside was worth a try. Yes premies and exes were persuing something real, we just forgot to ask m what he expected to get out of it. Had we done so he might have replied, that by subverting our idealism to serve his material comforts on earth he was getting a ticket to easy street and keeping the likes of us off the highways and byways thus giving space for his flash cars to cruise along. We would then have known that following m was not going to lead anywhere near where we wanted to go. Sadly once in the fold the blinkers come into play and all the otherwise repugnant elements of the movement are deemed to be somehow beyond our understanding. Yes premies and exes do want truth, but what about m? The boy just wanted to have fun now he should grow up and come clean, get real he might enjoy it. All the best, Bolly

Subject: Experience and Reality. From: AJW To: Not an ex Date Posted: Sun, Jun 23, 2002 at 09:30:50 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi not an ex, Thanks for that honest response. In what way is your life better for being involved with Rawat? Have you ever looked at your situation from the perspective of you being in a cult, like the Moonies for example? Would you say that a Moonie's life could be better for being involved with the Rev. Moon? (I guess maybe it could, but they must have had a really awful life before.) Also, your comments about, maybe we're not financially too well off, but at least we were trying to experience something 'real'. Are you suggesting that people who pursue 'normal' lives and don't join cults are not experiencing something 'real', even though they have families, jobs, and the usual burden of being a human being to carry? I hope you don't mind me asking you questions like this. I'm not trying to criticise you or have a go at you. I get the feeling you're emerging from the cult, like a butterfly from a chrysalis. I'll be interested to hear what you've got to say. Anth the Inquisitor

Subject: Re: Experience and Reality. From: Not an ex To: AJW Date Posted: Sun, Jun 23, 2002 at 10:28:37 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: No, I don't look at it from the perspective of being in a cult. There is nothing holding me here. I don't have a fear of leaving because there is nothing to leave. It seems to me like everyone posting here are sensitive, intelligent people. It's hard to believe that all of you would have been involved for so many years if it was only a cult or a scam. I also can't believe that Maharaji, at eight years old concocted this plan of becoming a multi-millionaire off of the contributions of a bunch of suckers that he was about to con. There was an experience there, something that drew us all in in the first place, and kept us there for many years. You don't stay with something for 30 years just on hype alone. Anyway, I know I can't win in a debate with you guys, so it's best I don't get into it. For every point I make, there will be ten of you attacking it, and I don't have the time to spend here. I do appreciate your being civil. I do enjoy reading here and so do other PWKS. Enjoy life.

Subject: Hey Not an ex. From: AJW To: Not an ex Date Posted: Sun, Jun 23, 2002 at 12:19:03 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: No, I don't look at it from the perspective of being in a cult. There is nothing holding me here. I don't have a fear of leaving because there is nothing to leave. It seems to me like everyone posting here are sensitive, intelligent people. It's hard to believe that all of you would have been involved for so many years if it was only a cult or a scam. I also can't believe that Maharaji, at eight years old concocted this plan of becoming a multi-millionaire off of the contributions of a bunch of suckers that he was about to con. There was an experience there, something that drew us all in in the first place, and kept us there for many years. You don't stay with something for 30 years just on hype alone. Anyway, I know I can't win in a debate with you guys, so it's best I don't get into it. For every point I make, there will be ten of you attacking it, and I don't have the time to spend here. I do appreciate your being civil. I do enjoy reading here and so do other PWKS. Enjoy life. --- Hey Not an ex, Don't rush off in the middle of the conversation. I was just starting to enjoy it. You did start this thread after all. And I don't think anyone is attacking you yet. Are they? In fact, everyone has been very polite and so far allowed us to chat uninterrupted. Chill out. Relax. Nobody's out to do you any harm here. So, you say you can't believe we could have been involved for so long if it was a cult or a scam? The same logic could be applied to Moonies, or Hare Krishna people, who have been in their cults for 20 or 30 years. If they have been in so long, how can they be in cults? And I agree with your view that Rawat couldn't have planned his scam at the age of 8 or whatever. I don't see him like this at all. As I said elsewhere on the forum, I see him more like a Michael jackson type character, brought into the business very young and fucked up by it. But that's another story. There was definitely something that drew us in, I agree. And I agree you don't keep going on hype alone. There's also a social structure, programming, and of course Faith. They all keep you going. So we don't seem so far apart on this one. My only contention is your argument that if you're in something for a long time, it must be OK. Anth, enjoying wife, life, strife, and fife, but given up on the afterlife.

Subject: Re: Hey Not an ex. From: Not a troll To: AJW Date Posted: Sun, Jun 23, 2002 at 13:11:25 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: In a thread below I was called a troll by gerry (administrator) and asked to leave, so I am leaving peacefully. I have enjoyed posting with you though. The thing I don't understand is the intro to forum 7 states that it is a forum for debate about Maharaji & related topics. Do you have to Hate Maharaji to post here? If so what is to debate? He accused me of trying to start a fight and disrupt the forum. I don't understand where that happened. Sorry, but I guess I'm in the wrong place. Take care.

Subject: Re: Hey Not a troll From: AJW To: Not a troll Date Posted: Sun, Jun 23, 2002 at 13:17:37 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Your post is quite confusing. Are you the person I was talking to, 'Not an ex', or are you someone joining in our conversation. If you're the person who I was talking to, please remember your virtual manners and stick to a single name. OK, if gerry asked you to leave, why did you start another thread? You seem to be dodging the questions here. If you're not the person I was talking to, well you should leave the forum as requested. Anth, not a lump of cheese.

Subject: Welcome Not an ex From: Richard To: Not an ex Date Posted: Sat, Jun 22, 2002 at 09:11:15 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thank you for your candor. It is refreshing to hear someone stating their situation honestly and without needing to attack. I spent years in a similar mindset as yourself. For myself, I left M&K for seven years as a result of much personal work. I simply realized I no longer required an authority figure in my life. Nostalgia for the good ol' days brought me back via the Long Beach events for a few years. However, I could not reconcile the cognitive dissonance between what M was saying and the reality of an obvious devotional path. What he says is that he is merely a teacher and it is all about one's individual experience. What it is about in reality is unquestioned devotion to M. Congratulations on deciding for yourself what you can accept and what you must reject. Discrimination is a good thing to nurture. Best wishes to you on your continuing journey. Richard

Subject: thanks Not From: also not an ex To: Not an ex Date Posted: Sat, Jun 22, 2002 at 02:57:13 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: could't express my position any better. And I don't think it is a 'need' to go see him, as Pat wrote in his answer, it is rather a 'why not' if I can get in without paying...

Subject: You sound like a guy I knew From: AJW To: also not an ex Date Posted: Sun, Jun 23, 2002 at 12:34:09 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You sound like a guy I knew when I was a teacher in London. One Christmas London Transport layed the buses and tubes on for free. He planned his whole Christmas day on a route map, and must have travelled over 100 all day, just because it was free. I felt sorry for the guy, but I don't feel sorry for you whoever you are, because I'm sure you're a nice person really. I'm sure you get my drift, 'There must be a better reason to go and see the Living Perfect Master than, 'It's free,''. And anyway, you get hit for a massive donation before you get in. Anth the pedantic

Subject: 'why not' if I can get in without paying [nt] From: PatC - thanks for the chuckle To: also not an ex Date Posted: Sat, Jun 22, 2002 at 12:04:53 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Beware I'm an ex-premie From: PatC To: Not an ex Date Posted: Sat, Jun 22, 2002 at 01:44:06 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Grrr! Woof! Great post Not. You are describing my situation to a tee a few years ago. But I warned you - I'm an ex so I don't have any affection left for Rev Rawat. Doesn't some of the dirt about him bother you? I know the hit and run bothered me a lot. I only found out about that after I exed. (I left becaue I went back in after a long abscence and found out that the organization was sick.) But that was the clincher for me. Any remaining affection for him was immediately destroyed. I hope you don't feel too incomfortable not liking him but still needing him. I think that was the worst part of being ''not an ex'' for me for the last few years. Good luck and welcome to the forum.

Subject: Ex-ness From: Gregg To: PatC Date Posted: Sat, Jun 22, 2002 at 09:33:57 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Interesting hearing about the degrees of ex-ness...how we describe ourselves to feel about Prem Pal Rawat. Is there a spectrum from love to hate, with fawning sycophants on one end and Jagdeo victims on the other? I guess 'not an ex' would fall right in the middle. I'm one of those 70's premies who left in the dead of the night long ago and never looked back. Until the wan light of the dying embers of the Twentieth Century inspired someone to invent the Ex-Premie Forum, that is.

Subject: Fake electronic greeting cards From: Jim To: All Date Posted: Fri, Jun 21, 2002 at 16:51:23 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I received notification yesterday that an electronic greeting card I supposedly sent arrived. It was a stupid, animated thing referring to 'the guru'. It wasn't even funny. But anyway, the point is, I didn't send it. Someone sued my email address and claimed to be me. I only found out because the site automatically advises the -- supposed -- sender. I didn't recognize the recipient's email address but I did email him or her saying the card wasn't for me. As for the site, I emailed them and this was their response: Hello , Thank you for contacting eGreetings.com Customer Service. Your message indicated that you did NOT send a card. When our customers use our service, they are asked to fill in their Email addresses. It appears that our customer has made a mistake doing this and the Email address used belongs to you. Unfortunately, the only way we are able to contact our customer is by using the email address they have provided which, in this case is yours! I apologize for you getting emails that you do not want. Hopefully, this customer will not make the same mistake again. Thank you for bringing this matter to our attention. We apologize for your inconvenience. Thank you, Evy Your Customer Care Agent egreetings.com

Subject: you've been spoofed From: Salam To: Jim Date Posted: Sun, Jun 23, 2002 at 08:39:10 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: means fuck all to you of course. This is what you do. right click on the e-mail, you will get a window,scroll down to property, click. another piece of crap come up. click on the tab saying details. you see the e-mail header. maximise the window and read. you are looking for a return path some thing like Received: from xxxxxx .134.64.90]) by loc01.****xxx with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.647.64); Sat, 15 Jun 2002 08:28:58 +1000 Received: from outmta011.topica.com ([64.125.140.220]) by mx01.iprimus.com.au with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.4617); Sat, 15 Jun 2002 08:28:54 +1000 To: salam_au@ From: Human Rights Watch Subject: Human Rights Watch Logo Design Competition Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 15:28:17 -0700 Message-ID: <58429.700000877.436921124-1463792126-1024093723@topica.com> Errors-To: Reply-To: webadmin@hrw.org X-Topica-Id: <1024093702.svc004.28163.1000641> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Return-Path: list-errors.700000877.58429.819802166.008.0.1@boing.topica.com X-OriginalArrivalTime: 14 Jun 2002 22:28:54.0936 (UTC) FILETIME=[DE1EA980:01C213F2] of course you need to contact the person that recieved the e-mail and ask them to do the same. In their e-mails there should be a return path and a 'probable' return path. the probable return path is the path for the spoofer. Spoofing is illegal just like breaking into bulliten boards if you know what I mean. The act is punishable by law. You need to get a copy of the header, then being a lawyer you need to write a letter to your isp that you have been spoofed. You also need to make sure that you certainly don't have a trojan on your computer, ie download the latest security patch and run it. If you have understood what i've said, your isp will take your cause and traces back to where the original e-mail came from. This is a highly dangerous practice because as a lawyer, you will have someone evasdropping on your e-mails. Normally that happens if the person is after some particular information, like passwords or confidential information. It a weakness in the smtp protocol that form part of the communication suit on the internet. My advice is that you chase this to the limit and get the prick, also notify everyone you know that this could be happening and if it does then for them to take action. Also get an e-mail account with someone that provides it, like yahooo. Keep it strickly private. Make that get a lot of e-mails and make them private. to others reading this, do the same, you've all been spoofed or willbe without knowing it, trust me, there is a hacker around as jhb will confirm.

Subject: example of a spoof From: Salam To: Salam Date Posted: Sun, Jun 23, 2002 at 08:49:34 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: this is an example of a spoofed e-mail From: salam_au MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=BETOW7l13046J8e2q961L8S2Kp X-Apparently-From: spoofer@isp.com you are looking for the underlined part. Must say, bit scarry init.

Subject: Someone tried to use my Yahoo account... From: Cynthia To: Jim Date Posted: Sat, Jun 22, 2002 at 07:02:28 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Jim, I received a message this morning in my Yahoo email from the folks who administer that account telling me that the address to which I send an email to failed. I didn't use my Yahoo (the sylviecyn@yahoo.com) yesterday at all and that's when the mail was sent under my account name. The email which was supposedly undeliverable had a 'jai' in the name...the subject title was 'EndGame,' and no message I've been getting spam from someone in Germany for over a month, too. Nothing viral, no message except for one, and all had to do with playing games. I've written to Yahoo explaining that I didn't use my email yesterday, don't know that particular email adressee, and that someone is apparently trying to send emails using my address. What a co-inkydink, you think?

Subject: No one tried to log in to your account From: JHB To: Cynthia Date Posted: Sun, Jun 23, 2002 at 00:03:56 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Cynthia, These virus emails often have a false return address, whether that has been deliberately put there, or has automatically lifted from someone's address book. So if an email can't be delivered, then the delivery failure message is sent to the fake return address. It doesn't mean anyone has got into your account. John.

Subject: Re: No one tried to log in to your account From: Cynthia To: JHB Date Posted: Sun, Jun 23, 2002 at 05:52:53 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks John, I didn't think they could get into my account but they used my email address as the sender...is that possible?

Subject: Re: Fake electronic greeting cards From: Zelda To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, Jun 21, 2002 at 21:19:05 (PDT) Email Address: none Message: Jim would you post that greeting card here? or send it to >extrixie@hotmail.com< it sounds familiar. nuff said. let me know here if you do

Subject: Re: Fake electronic greeting cards From: Jim To: Zelda Date Posted: Sat, Jun 22, 2002 at 12:22:27 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'm at Laurie's but I'll send it to you when I get home.

Subject: 'THANKS FOR THAT' From: Dermot To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 20, 2002 at 21:51:07 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Sorry to bother you all.....but if you check out a post on Symposium entitled 'thanks for that' you'll notice on the outside that it's posted by Salam. If you click open the post, though, you'll see it's posted by 'Quiet'. Also the post is written in the usual 'Q' persona etc. HO HUM. Also it's been verified this very night 'Salam', 'Q' and 'Riopell' have been using the very same IP number. I could well imagine 'q' being Roupell but didn't figure 'Q' was also Salam. Yep I was sceptical. Apparently though if you make a mistake and try to edit a name, the name inside remains the same. I experimented myself to be absolutely sure. You'll therefore find a post on Symp written by 'New name' but inside it's still 'Dermot'. Now isn't that weird eh??????? Cheers Dermot

Subject: Re: 'THANKS FOR THAT' From: Richard To: Dermot Date Posted: Fri, Jun 21, 2002 at 16:27:56 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks for your honesty and expediant correction of this issue. I was definitely just totally freaking out last night as I read about all of the intrigue. To keep the excitement level up on the forum, I guess we'll just have to hang out waiting for a former PAM to come forward with compromising pix of M with a goat. :) Stay real bro, Richard