Ex-Premie.Org |
Forum I Archive # 1 | |
From: Apr 12, 1997 |
To: May 2, 1997 |
Page: 5 Of: 5 |
Date: Mon, Apr 14, 1997 at 21:05:14 (EDT)
Poster: Pickles Email: To: Everyone Subject: Crucifiction Message: Nobody here wants to crucify Maharajieven if they're against him now. That's ridiculous. Typical religious crap. There's no comparison to Jim and Pontious Pilate or Judas. We all just want to be truthfull even if it means questioning the path we've been following for years. The Romans crusified Jesus because he threatened them. This website is just about telling the other side of the story. It's about real people's real feelings and experiences that hurt. The people who should be ashamed (if there are any) are the scaremongering believers who think they're earning their place in heaven by trying to frighten people out of speaking about their doubts. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Apr 14, 1997 at 23:42:50 (EDT)
Poster: Chris Email: To: Pickles Subject: Re: Crucifiction Message: Nobody here wants to crucify Maharajieven if they're against him now. That's ridiculous. Typical religious crap. There's no comparison to Jim and Pontious Pilate or Judas. We all just want to be truthfull even if it means questioning the path we've been following for years. The Romans crusified Jesus because he threatened them. This website is just about telling the other side of the story. It's about real people's real feelings and experiences that hurt. The people who should be ashamed (if there are any) are the scaremongering believers who think they're earning their place in heaven by trying to frighten people out of speaking about their doubts. I totally agree with you that people should be able to say what they feel on this website. I am going to try to minimize my comments here after I get a few things out. Can you name a single REAL person who has posted on this site who has tried to 'frighten people out of speaking about their doubts'? Talk about ridiculous! Talk about FUD. Who are these 'scaremongering believers' that you seem to have drempt up? At least you did say 'if there are any'. O.K. Now, I don't appreciate Jim trying to label me as a Nazi sympathizer and I don't appreciate Jim getting Mili kicked off the Internet. That stuff is typical censorship crap and scaremongering tactics right out of the main book. But who cares about a bit of name calling or ranting - g? It should be made clear that just because somebody's name is associated with a posting here does not mean that that is the person who posted the message. Some people may not realize this. It is not an unusual tactic to stir up hatred and mistrust by impersonating an opposing viewpoint in a deceptive manner. Now, on to the good, juicy topics! Let loose! Regards, CD Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 16, 1997 at 13:30:15 (EDT)
Poster: Anonymous Email: To: Chris Subject: Re: Crucifiction Message: Do you remember words to the effect that: To turn away from Knowledge was Like being given a truckload of vegetables and not eating them. They will go rotten, as will your life. and how if you tell the techniques to anyone you will go to some Hindu Hell. ETC.ETC. Our strict diet of Satsang, Service and Meditation was seasoned with Fire and Brimstone threats and similarily persuasive stories of the dreadful fate of those who fell from the path. MAHARAJI USED TO TELL THESE STORIES HIMSELF SO THEY MUST BE TRUE I SUPPOSE. No wonder Pickles is nervous. Anonymous Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 16, 1997 at 15:07:55 (EDT)
Poster: Chris Email: To: Anonymous Subject: Re: Crucifiction Message: Do you remember words to the effect that: To turn away from Knowledge was Like being given a truckload of vegetables and not eating them. They will go rotten, as will your life. and how if you tell the techniques to anyone you will go to some Hindu Hell. ETC.ETC. Our strict diet of Satsang, Service and Meditation was seasoned with Fire and Brimstone threats and similarily persuasive stories of the dreadful fate of those who fell from the path. MAHARAJI USED TO TELL THESE STORIES HIMSELF SO THEY MUST BE TRUE I SUPPOSE. No wonder Pickles is nervous. Anonymous I do remember something similar to your vegetable story. I interpret it as not taking advantage of Knowledge. I sometimes have people tell me to wash my car more often. Why don't you try to find an accurate 'Fire and Brimstone' quote or story. What is your 'dreadful fate' by the way? Death? Hope you are doing O.K. You seem to be fiesty. So what should 'Pickles' be nervous about today? And what variety of Pickles do we have here anyway? CD Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 16, 1997 at 17:11:53 (EDT)
Poster: old premie Email: To: Chris Subject: Re: Crucifiction Message: thanks for sticking it out here. I was getting kind of lonely. Your humor brings welcome relief - I often wish I could do that. I emailed Mili, by the way. No he hasn't been kicked off. He's out saving the universe with UNICEF. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 16, 1997 at 18:07:45 (EDT)
Poster: Chris Email: To: old premie Subject: Re: Crucifiction Message: thanks for sticking it out here. I was getting kind of lonely. Your humor brings welcome relief - I often wish I could do that. I emailed Mili, by the way. No he hasn't been kicked off. He's out saving the universe with UNICEF. I appreciate your interesting messages. Is that you - g ? I may not be taking some of this stuff seriously enough these days. Mili actually was kicked off the Internet a while back. Jim Heller apparently sent some Email to Mili's ISP claiming that he was being verbally threatened. Imagine that - g. Jim has some nerve. Then he publicly gloated about the incident making fun of Mili being denied Internet access. Some times it is hard to take the postings here seriously. There is quite a mixture of sincerity, humour, anger, hatred, information, deception, BS, thoughfulness and foolishness. That is one thing I have always noticed and liked about the goings on and people around Maharaji. Variety! What's next?!? CD Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 16, 1997 at 18:19:29 (EDT)
Poster: Douche Email: To: Chris Subject: Re: Crucifiction Message: What's next?!? Honesty? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 16, 1997 at 18:33:19 (EDT)
Poster: Chris Email: To: Douche Subject: Re: Crucifiction Message: >What's next?!? Honesty? Why not! Thicken the mixture. Mr. Stirling I presume - g? Hasn't Mili got you yet? Or did you two make up. I thought the 'real Douche' decided to go with 'David' after a consult with Mr. Heller. Good to see you're still kicken! Now I sound crazy. But it to be expected, I am posting a message to the 'real Douche'! CD Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Apr 14, 1997 at 17:09:18 (EDT)
Poster: JW Email: To: Everyone Subject: Great Book Message: For those of you who haven't seen it, there is great book out about how gurus manipulate people and creat an atmosphere to control their followers. It also shows that GMJ is not the only ones using those tricks. It called "The Guru Papers -- Mask of Authoritarian Power" by Joel Kramer and Diana Alstad. I found it fascinating and very accurate. You can get it (or order it) from your local bookstore. It's in paperback. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Apr 14, 1997 at 17:10:59 (EDT)
Poster: JW Email: To: Everyone Subject: Great Book Message: For those of you who haven't seen it, there is great book out about how gurus manipulate people and creat an atmosphere to control their followers. It also shows that GMJ is not the only ones using those tricks. It called "The Guru Papers -- Mask of Authoritarian Power" by Joel Kramer and Diana Alstad. I found it fascinating and very accurate. You can get it (or order it) from your local bookstore. It's in paperback. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Apr 14, 1997 at 19:05:38 (EDT)
Poster: Jim Email: To: JW Subject: Re: Great Book Message: Absolutely. The book's great. Just great. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Apr 14, 1997 at 19:05:56 (EDT)
Poster: Jim Email: To: JW Subject: Re: Great Book Message: Absolutely. The book's great. Just great. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Apr 14, 1997 at 19:43:45 (EDT)
Poster: Deena Email: To: JW Subject: Re: Great Book Message: I'm back...I logged on to read any responses to my last post. Yes Jim, you are absolutely right, in MJ's world his word means nothing...quess I'm still victim of that mindset, it's only been a little over 2 months. But what I really came back to say is thanks JW for speaking here, and if you want to read another great book, one that will address the abuse issue you spoke of with leaving a cult, then read CAPTIVE HEARTS CAPTIVE MINDS mentioned previously I know. It's just that it's helped me so much and reading your's and other posts I know it would be of interest. Oh yeah and I ordered GURU PAPERS and MORAL ANIMAL as well...not one store here has them! I find it hard not to visit here because it feels so good to know I'm not alone in what is happening to me. But I refuse to get into it the way I did before, because as you mentioned as theaputic as it is, it also brings back the pain and living with an active premie, my husband of 15 years, makes it even more...well you can imagine. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Apr 14, 1997 at 20:16:05 (EDT)
Poster: JW Email: To: Deena Subject: Re: Great Book Message: Thanks for not leaving, Deena, I'm personally glad that you will continue to be around. I'd just like to say that it really does get better. I found that the feelings of pain, anger and betrayal fade into the background and as time goes by I can begin to take whatever "good stuff" there was in the cult (and there was some) and utilize it in my life, while at the same time killing the deep programming that comes from being involved with GMJ. It all becomes much more objective. But it does take time, at least it did for me. The feeling of being free from all that GMJ stands for is much better than any experience I had in the cult, including the "fake love" tha GMJ sold to us. Hang in ther kid. JW Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Apr 15, 1997 at 17:45:21 (EDT)
Poster: Douchid Email: To: JW Subject: Re: Great Book Message: For those of you who haven't seen it, there is great book out about how gurus manipulate people and creat an atmosphere to control their followers. It also shows that GMJ is not the only ones using those tricks. It called 'The Guru Papers -- Mask of Authoritarian Power' by Joel Kramer and Diana Alstad. I found it fascinating and very accurate. You can get it (or order it) from your local bookstore. It's in paperback. Any good quotes you could share with us? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Apr 15, 1997 at 17:58:50 (EDT)
Poster: Daviche Email: To: Deena Subject: Re: Great Book Message: Deena, is your other half really a premie of 15 years standing? How do you cope with that one? It must be a nightmare. Don't you want to knock him over the head with a blunt instrument when he's meditating under his sheet, snoring gently to himself? Or is he one of those infuriatingly happy people you just can't get mad at? David. There, finally managed it - I outgrew my douchebag! Thanks Jim. You are my rock of sanity in a truly mad world. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Apr 15, 1997 at 18:02:12 (EDT)
Poster: David Email: To: Jim Subject: Re: Great Book Message: Is there an echo here, or is it just my imagination? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Apr 15, 1997 at 23:43:19 (EDT)
Poster: Jim Email: To: David Subject: Re: Great Book Message: What can I tell you? The book's right on. (When I came back to Canada about eight years ago I was absolutely embarrased by the fact that they still said that here. No irony, nothing, just 'right on!' Something else, eh?) David, here's a quote from the book, but I have to make it up, because I've left the book at home and I'm at my girlfriends: 'Guru Maharaj Ji trembled in disbelief as the judge turned over the postcard which had been entered by his lawyer as an exhibit. The postcard has no postdate sir, said the judge Why for all I know it's a fake. Besides, when was your father ever in Cancun? The young Lord's lawyer reached for the card but the judge pulled it out of his reach. Meanwhile, the older brother, salivating at the thought that before the day was over he might finally have the Krishan crown at last, snickered softly. See , he whispered to his own counsel the little fat fuck doesn't even know how to forge a fucking postcard. He straightened quickly in his chair, thoough, when first his own lawyer and then his mother glowered at him. Even the judge stared for a sec thinking to himself Oh Shiva, what has become of mother India? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Apr 15, 1997 at 23:46:27 (EDT)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Jim Subject: Re: Great Book Message: Okay, this computer's fucked. Why can't my lines wrap automatically, my lord? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Apr 15, 1997 at 23:52:06 (EDT)
Poster: old premie Email: To: Jim Subject: Re: Great Book Message: Okay, this computer's fucked. Why can't my lines wrap automatically, my lord? Don't worry. The same thing is happening on the premie page (see the last post there, if you want to). So we know it's not Divine Vengeance for all your heretical comments here. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 16, 1997 at 09:32:33 (EDT)
Poster: Deena Email: To: Daviche Subject: Re: Great Book Message: Deena, is your other half really a premie of 15 years standing? How do you cope with that one? It must be a nightmare. Don't you want to knock him over the head with a blunt instrument when he's meditating under his sheet, snoring gently to himself? Or is he one of those infuriatingly happy people you just can't get mad at? David. There, finally managed it - I outgrew my douchebag! Thanks Jim. You are my rock of sanity in a truly mad world. My other hal,f as you called him,has had knowledge for 23 years. He has read some of these postings that I printed and left lying around and Mishler's stuff at my request but he still says I'm trashing MJ and this is dear to him. Forturnatly he is a closet premie and has eliminated all evidence of his day to day premie thinking in our exchanges. Problem is that though we married after the ashrams closed and the relationship was based on the fact that he and I both loved MJ more than each other, thankfully over the years, we also loved each other...our devotion not being perfect. Now it is EXTREMELY difficult. If we didn't care for each other it would be simple. He'd make me sick and I'd make him sick. Time will tell....PLEASE if anyone has similar experience...share it. I'd love him to do a 360 like me, but...I don't know if I'm kidding myself. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Apr 14, 1997 at 12:33:55 (EDT)
Poster: JW Email: To: Everyone Subject: Ashrams Message: I'd like to get one thing straight about the comments I saw that certain people expressing their views here are just angry because MJ closed the ashrams and they were more into the ashrams than into MJ. Also, I heard some incredible revisionist historical statements that MJ closed the ashrams because they got in the way, and he was never really into them anyway. 1. First, MJ made it clear in the ashram meetings, and throught the mahatmas and initiators, that the ashrams were essential to his mission and it was absolutely the worst thing you could do to move out. So, there you were if you wanted to devote your life, which he also required. He also said the ashram prmemies were closer to him than the non-ashram premies. I was there, I heard it. Quote from Bill Patterson to me circa 1975: "If you want to dedicate and surrender to Guru Mararaj Ji, that means ashram, there is no other way." Patterson was also armed with other quotes directly from MJ on the same issue. 2. The above position of MJ was not popular with me, because I personally hated living in the ashrams because, among other things, 1. You couldn't have sex (actually this is reasons 1-10); 2. You couldn't own anything and had no freedom to do anything you like; 3. You had no privacy; 4. You were cut off from your family; 5. You couldn't have a career, no matter how much you were interested in having one, 6. You had to be vulnerable to the whims of several mentally derranged and sadistic Mahatmas and Initiators who came through on a regular basis (Fakiranand (bang bang), Parlokanand (who sexually molested little boys while giving divine knowledge on the side), and others I won't mention except to say they were some of the most miserable and freaked-out people I have ever met, and 7. You had to live with at least a few generally annoying people. Although I hated living there, I stayed because I wanted to follow his directions and devote myself to him, on every level, not because I was devoted to the ashram. 3. If Maharaj Ji closed the ashrams because they "got in the way" that implies they were a mistake. And they were a "mistake" that had profound effects on the lives of many people. Does the Lord of the Universe make mistakes? Has he ever admitted that? Taken in context with what he said at the asrham meetings, it's hard to take it any other way. Or where the ashrams just a phase MJ was going through and a few thousand pesky human beings just happened to get in the way, turning over all their money, damaging any career potential they ever had and damaging their relations with their families? Gee whiz, I guess we just screwed up his plans and he had to close them. Oh, I forgot, MJ is only responsible for the good stuff and everything else is our fault! Right. He can't have it both ways and we shouldn't let him. At least for the record. JW Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Apr 14, 1997 at 19:07:43 (EDT)
Poster: Jim Email: To: JW Subject: Re: Ashrams Message: I can't add to this other than to say 'alright!' Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Apr 14, 1997 at 11:53:57 (EDT)
Poster: JW Email: To: Everyone Subject: Healthy Discussion Message: I can understand Deena's views about whether it is worth it to talk about all this old crap. To a degree, it's healthy, as there are very few other places you can express your feelings about being an ex-premie. Most people have no idea what the experience of being completely dupped on a spiritual and physical level is like. On the other hand, too much focus on it just keeps the cult leader in my life, even if it's as an object of derision or pity. And I don't want that either. Personally, I have rarely mentioned my time in the cult in the last 10 years or so. It just seemed so irrelevant, because so much good stuff was happening in my life and I have been out of the cult now for more years than I was in it. The good stuff is still happening in my life, but it'helpful to talk about the cult again if for no other reason than to once again recognize where I've been. Like being raised a Catholic or having lost a brother to cancer, it's part of who I am. But I tell you, for me, it's sometimes like talking about being abused as a child, or having been in a destructive relationship: it's always very liberating, but also emotionally draining because I can remember the pain. Regarding Deena's question about MJs drinking problems. All I can say is that in the late 80s one of MJ's personal lawyer left the cult and reported to me that he had a serious drinking problem then. Apparently, true to form, expensive cognac was the drug of choice. I have no idea whether she has made any attempt to publicize this, because to some extent, so what? The current cult members would disbelieve or rationalize the fact and the public and the media is currently, and has been for quite some time, totally uninterested in MJ, as Jim said, is seen as a washed-up relic from the 70s who has tried to keep a low profile. I think he keeps a low profile because the press would tend to ask pesky embarrassing questions after looking into their historical files, like: "Are you still the Lord of the Universe?," and "Aren't you a little behind your self-imposed schedule to bring peace to the world?" GMJ wasn't born yesterday, and I think he understands that he has nothing to gain by any sort of visibility; at least in the west it would only hurt his propogation chances. The Moonies have done the same thing; bad publicity requires reqruitment on a "personal" level only. JW Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Apr 15, 1997 at 10:46:37 (EDT)
Poster: Jim Email: To: JW Subject: Re: Healthy Discussion Message: I am so bummed! I just wrote about the funniest thing I've ever said -- early morning coffee, a little goofy -- and it got lost! Shit! Okay, I'm not going to do this again. I just can't. Suffice to say I agree with everything you say and am so happy that all you new ex-premies have dropped in. Sure beats talking with people who wear crosses around their necks so their rational minds don't get them. God, it was so funny. I'll have to do this again a little later. Frankly, I enjoy talking about the wierd, wacky world we wallowed in just for the entertainement value. Remember Michael Nouri, the soon-to-be-famous premie thespian (Flashdance, a great film, and the Gangster Chronicles, financed by Raja ji [just kidding]), who then was only recognized by the premies, who had eyes to see, as the genius he was? What am I talking about? And it is Divine Selling And it is Divine, of course. The absolutely worse song I've ever sung. No, this is healthy. Hey, it was our youth. We only had this one. Fuck anyone who says we don't own it to do with as we wish. God, I wish I hadn't lost that post! Oh well. Thanks guys, Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Apr 13, 1997 at 10:31:04 (EDT)
Poster: Deena Email: To: Everyone Subject: My experience Message: This will be my last post here. Thank-you to everyone who made it possibile. I have to move on now. It has been a wonderful way to wash the dirt of living in a cult away. I use to love to be with MJ and as he put it, have the dirt of this world washed away by the master. That was the duality I lived - being with the master is real, being in this world illusion. In the tradition of Krishna he encourages his premies to remember with every breath, so that they will come to him at their last breath. As a devoted premie I loved to watch every video (over 400 in total) and some more than once. A day without the experience of practising knowledge was not possibile because I loved it. But most of all I loved to be with MJ. Every movement , every word, the feeling...nothing in this world could compare. Every love song I heard would explode my feeling from within. So much love, the gratitude poured as tears sometimes. Sweet, sweet love upon opening my eyes in the morning as I remembered another day to spend loving him. But everything else in this world became like dust in my mouth. I understood the quote on the latest Indian CD by Tulsidas: 'The heads that do not bow to the feet of the living master are like bitter pumpkins' The more I devoted myself the more detached I became from everything else- it meant nothing to me. I saw myself as a mother, wife, and business partner who, to the best of my ability, functioned as such. But my heart, as I called it, wasn't really in it. I longed for the day I could just focus on service and/or travelling to where MJ is. In the tradition of Kabir, Mira etc. the devotion is complete and even in the face of persecution that love for the master does not allow anything to come between. I lived for the intoxicating ecstacys I frequently experienced. At night I sometimes dreamed I was with MJ. In between I understood the dry desert waiting for the rain. I trusted implicitly. Doulbts or confusion were ignored. I was content - so content that at any moment, as much as I loved life, I had fulfilled myself and felf I could even die... having fulfilled my destiny. I didn't see my judgemental arrogance. I only saw when I was humble. I didn't recognize my gut feelings. I interpretated that as mind and followed my heart instead. There are many levels to which one can experience MJ's teachings. For those who are instuctors, MJ's 'people' who do legal etc. stuff, residence, plane or service in each place where there are events,etc etc. For these premies there is a committment to focus and just like at the events the reminder is there to not socialize, no chit chat, no hugging etc. There is the realization that this life of service , listening to the master and practising this knowledge is an opprotunity that can not be taken for granted. It has been 23 years since I first came to MJ. I never could have imagined that I would ever leave. But I have. My gut feelings surfaced over time and without talking to anyone or reading anything, completely on my own, I walked away. I had always experienced the freedom of concepts blown by MJ's teachings. Now without concept of master or the duality of mind and heart, I felt a freedom that surpassed any I had in the years with MJ. I am amazed to discover that there is a sense of peace in that moment that has lasted. I had always believed that walking away would mean loss ot that contentment. In India, cults are tradition. Master/Devotee-Blessings-Darshan-Grace. I respected that the west was becoming more evolved spiritually or in matters of the heart, however you like to put it. Now I see it as a tradition that dates back to Krishna and possibily before, that under the scrutiny of the west has been seen for what this PRIMATIVE tradition, belief system or experience really is..... .a cult.. Accepted in the east as healthy. Proven in the west as dangerous. I was duped. I facilitated others to receive knowledge over the past 16 years. I hope in this postings I may have allowed people to trust their gut feelings and ' when in doubt - get out' Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Apr 13, 1997 at 15:26:29 (EDT)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Deena Subject: Re: My experience Message: Deena, Thank you for YOUR input. I wonder myself how long I'll stick around to battle it out with the dimwits. It IS kind of sick, isn't it? But then that's the net. Ill probably keep going until I get some real, substantive response from Maharaji even if it's just that he won't give me one. Meanwhile, if you're lurking here and think of something really pertinent to contribute, don't stand on ceremony. Jump back in. You don't have to engage anyone in an argument and you don't have to worry about going back on your 'word.' In Maharaji's world, one's 'word' means nothing. Take care, Jim Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Apr 13, 1997 at 22:44:18 (EDT)
Poster: old premie Email: To: Deena Subject: Re: My experience Message: This 'last post' really gave me a different view of you. You sound honest and accepting of your own being. I really wish all the best for you, although that calm you speak of sounds a little scary. From the way you spoke here, I'm sure you do need to get out and discover the joys of life. I don't want to sour you to anything you are doing, so I won't pontificate in any way. I only hope that the seeds of love that you have sown grow in every direction. It doesn't sound to me as though you've closed your heart or even closed the door on your past experience. I have a very close friend who stopped practicing Knowledge simply because she felt, 'Maharaji has nothing more to teach me.' I don't feel that way - but who am I to guide someone else's life? I only hope that as the wounds you feel now start to heal, that you will welcome sweet memories instead of turning them to destructive anger and cynicism. All the best to you always. Be sure to keep in touch with those you feel closest to. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Apr 14, 1997 at 09:55:54 (EDT)
Poster: bill Email: To: Deena Subject: Re: My experience Message: Are you sure you dont want to stop back in ? I will miss you. I am not able to move on without still looking back and wrestling. If you want to talk to a friend about this from time to time I get to a computer once in a while when I am able and would be happy to share evolutions. I am finding that I can float on that breath and that is a mighty fine friend. Ihope people at this site have been treating you with kindness. I havent been on to follow your writing like I liked to. Good Luck and stop back Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Apr 13, 1997 at 02:39:33 (EDT)
Poster: Bill Cooper Email: To: Scott Subject: Who is Guru Maharaji Message: Scott Many thanks for this web page. It seems to be unique . I spent most of a day surfing for other information on M through cult information and couldn t find any other links. I wonder why ? Does it mean that M is not thought to be a cult by cult watchers or is he regarded as relatively harmless to need much mention? The latter would seem to be the most plausible . I didn t realise there were that many scary cults out there . It seems to me the fundamental question is, was /is Maharaji practising deception ? I remember singing the Lord of the Universe has come to us today along with thousands of others in front of a maharaji clad in full Krishna costume. He never stopped and said hey look guys you ve got it all wrong . We were all working on an implied assumption which M by his silence went along with , but who is Guru Maharaji. Is he a perfect master, Lord of the Universe, con man , fellow victim or any other category my imagination hasn t leaped to. The problem is what do we mean by these labels. What is a perfect master ? Is Maharaji like Christ ? How can we ever arrive at a conclusion on these matters? The only way you can really know is to go inside and see for yourself. Have faith and believe. Both of these statements may be true but they are outside of the realm of logic and therefore beyond discussion. We can not arrive at the truth of these statements via argument and debate. In the empirical sciences we treat our unknown as a black box that we can ask questions of and as a consequence receive answers. On the basis of these answers we will refine the model that we consider to be operating within the black box. Our model will become increasingly sophisticated with the passage of time. It may not be true (whatever that means ) it is the best model on the information given at the time. In the pre Copernican universe a flat world was probably the best model to fit the data available to the ordinary person. The model will be consistent with past actions and if its good enough allow us to make predictions that we can test on future actions. Maharaji is not like Christ. I don t know if Christ ever existed and I know there are Christian scholars who would agree, but I have seen Maharaji . He is alive now and performing actions in this world . We can collectively look at his actions and ask ourselves which model best explains Maharajis behaviour. For the ordinary premie like myself this is not possible because apart from programs M is invisible. But I m sure there must be lots of people out there who have seen M at close range over a considerable time and have a much better idea of what sort of person he is. Please speak up and tell me . I m not interested in hearsay I want to know what you saw with your own eyes. I really want to know the truth. How should a perfect master behave? What model would that be in our black box. What is a perfect master. Maharaji stated in Rome recently * threre is only one place in the world where something like this is happening. Perfect master , true company*, and then M points to his chair. What actions would not be consistent with a perfect master. Christ for example was accused of living with low life and being a wine bibber, he could lose his temper and he allowed Mary to waste expensive oil by pouring them over his feet. Is a perfect master perfect or is he some one who has moments of divine experience and at others just like anyone else. We can only judge people by what they say and what they do. If the Bible is to be trusted then Christ only lost his temper as righteous indignation, his association with prostitutes was that he had come for sinners, he was not fucking them, and he drank wine but was not an alcoholic , his was a path of moderation in the world not renunciation from it. His use of the expensive oil was a symbolic annoitment of what was to come. He acted beyond the law only to show compassion for others should rule our actions not legislation. I don t really want to keep using Christ as an example because who is to say its the right example but I want to point to the fallacy of saying Christ lost his temper and so it s OK for Maharaji to do the same . Context is everything. Now I truly believe that the perfect Master can be the richest person in the world. Who else can enjoy all these material objects without getting trapped by them . The question is , is that Maharjis relationships with the cars planes and houses or etc. not. If for example enough people could claim first hand experience that Maharaji had a serious alcoholic drink problem then I would have problems believing that he was someone who had a good connection with knowledge let alone be a perfect master. Does Maharaji lose his temper with righteous indignation or is it the actions of an arrogant and spoilt child. Context and of course frequency are the key . I can believe that a perfect master can have bad days but are these things a one off or are they habit. It would really be good Scott if it could be possible to document those actions of Maharaji that bring his Perfect Master status into question with (real ) names dates context and verification by other named individuals so that this discussion could rise above the level of hearsay which has all its ever been on the edge of the premie community as far as I can see. Lets start with the Mishler transcript can anyone verify any of that ? There must be people out there who care enough to tell the truth. Lets raise the discussion above its all inside etc. I dont want to knock knowledge I enjoy meditating . Who is Maharaji ? Are his actions consistent with his words. There is a great page at alt.atheism FAQ called constructing a logical argument its really worth looking at especially the section on logical fallacies. When you ve read that come back and look at some of the threads its easy to see that many of them are not arguments because they contain logical fallacies. Its a waste of time consuming energy on these because there is no common basis to work on . One person is arguing chalk and the other cheese. Others are full of invective for the other writer. Hey, gets it off your chest but doesn t get us any further down the road. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Apr 13, 1997 at 15:18:48 (EDT)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Bill Cooper Subject: Re: Who is Guru Maharaji Message: Bill, Thanks a lot for your intelligent thoughts. I'm with you almost all the way. This is exactly the process anyone should be willing to undergo if they really want to find the answer to the question, 'Who is Guru Maharaji?' There's one key element you haven't touched on, though. That is, he's alive. He's here. He can talk for himself. When he dies we'll only have all these other bits and pieces to sift through. The believers will always be able to argue 'lila' or some general excuse for anything he does. Now, however, he can and should talk for himself. His silence, no make that his dissembling, was the final straw for me. Imagine Jesus denying the Sermon on the Mount or any part of his apocolyptic stuff. 'No, I never said that. Funny how words are, isn't it?' Or imagine his disciples saying that Jesus is 'moving on' and has a 'new way' of doing things. How satisfying would that be to any of the people he'd already sucked in to leaving their families, if there were any. Well that point's obvious. I just wanted to add it. Basically, thanks again for your input. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Apr 14, 1997 at 10:02:30 (EDT)
Poster: Bill Email: To: Bill Cooper Subject: Re: Who is Guru Maharaji Message: I saw the december morning video last night and maharaji said the importance of the rememberance of the breath ELUDED me all this time. groan Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Apr 14, 1997 at 17:03:37 (EDT)
Poster: JW Email: To: Bill Cooper Subject: Re: Who is Guru Maharaji Message: Mr Cooper: You've asked about the views of people who had been close to GMJ and what their views were of him. I kind of think that is beside the point, although I could give you some details. The real point is, why didi GMJ find it necessary to separate himself from his devotees and only to be with them in controlled settings like festivals where peer pressure and group-think had a tendence to take over? It's because that is what gurus have to do to keep up the facade that they want to project. Christ, on the other hand walked among and lived with his people. GMJ has Boeing 707s, arrives in a motorhome and wears Krishna outfits. There is a big difference there. Who of the two is hiding out from his followers; Christ or GMJ? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Apr 14, 1997 at 18:43:30 (EDT)
Poster: odl premie Email: To: JW Subject: Re: Who is Guru Maharaji Message: Amazing how many sides this can be viewed from. I did live with Maharaji, I saw him in day-to-day settings. I saw him angry, I saw him ill, I saw him hungry and tired. I never saw him as other than my teacher. I saw him experience the world we all experience, I saw him going through the trials and situations his premies went through - from pizza and baskin robbins to family quarrels and beyond. Some things I would simply not mention on a public airspace, because they will be misunderstood. But above all, I saw him doing all these things FOR his premies. I don't think he's separate from his premies - I think he avoids a lot of interpersonal contact because we all love a pecking order, and that is what had developed over the years in Divine Light Mission. You know it, and its been mentioned before: on top is Maharaji, then come the mahatmas, instructors, whatever the designation may be; then the residence premies - the ones who get to cook and clean and take care of his children and his cars; then come the coordinators, the managers, the ones who get to make the rules Maharaji is later blamed for; then come the ashram premies - the holier-than-everybody-else-I-put-my-life-on-the-line-for-him premies, the ones who have an automatic entry to the kingdom of heaven and don't have to bother meditating because they live on hallowed ground; then come the rich ones, blessed with cash so they can donate and go to all the festivals, and drive the mahatmas around and become their favorites because they buy them fancy clothes & expensive meals; then come the single premies, who get to do more service and go to more festivals because they have only themselves to care for, but they still want their joints and their occasional roll in the hay so no ashram for them thank you; and then come the poor souls trapped in the throes of maya, MARRIED, with CHILDREN. And each is a little lowlier than the next rung, less evolved, less endowed with grace. Sorry, I never got caught in that trap. I lived in the residence, I was a 'General Secretary', I was a simple ashram premie, I got married and was one of the poor ones who brought all my kids to programs & slept 6 in one hotel room. But I always had service and always found that very healthy smile from Maharaji. I saw absolutely no difference in how he treated me from the very first time I saw him through all my changes. I've had knowledge for nearly 26 years now, and through all the ups and downs, Maharaji's been a constant. I could say an eternal constant. So what do I see? I see that human beings love to put things into neat little boxes. Good, bad, fat, thin, pretty, ugly, yin, yang. I haven't explored all the reasons for the failed ashram experiment in this country, but gut feeling (yes, I have gut feelings too) tells me that it has a lot to do with our corporate mentality and innate sense of competition. We see everything from the economy to our nutritional habits as pyramids. Maharaji got rid of as many layers as he could. Not that things are perfect now. I know a lot of holier-than-thou-I've-been-around-for-25-years-and-know-how-he- wa nts-it people. So what? They exist in every facet of society. I really don't expect a bunch of haloed angels just because we have all realized that we have breath in common. Some have a softer side, that appears at those moments when love breaks through. Others never seem to have a need to express any emotion, or could easily be mistaken for the common grouch. But that's one of the things I love about being around Maharaji. Everyone IS different. Poetically: a beautiful garden filled with many many flowers, all different colors and odors - even some weeds that grow like wildfire. What's wrong with that? I gather from some of the comments that some people think I'm dodging real questions. I'd like to know why you feel that. If Bill Cooper wants to know some details about life with Maharaji, I'll be glad to provide them. I promised a while ago on this forum that I will not lie. I will not use hearsay or anything that I have not experienced myself. I lie to the phone company. I have no reason to lie about my experience with Maharaji. But you have to remember, always, that there is simply no way to have an objective accounting of what or who Maharaji is. He is subjective. Everything he does is affected by who he is doing it for. The same action can have a thousand interpretations. And, by the way, in the December Long Beach video, where he says that he has never before understood the importance of the breath, that it always eluded him, he is speaking as the person who WANTS to experience knowledge. You might try watching it again and realizing that there are invisible quotation marks from 'There is my church' through 'It is because of it that I am.' Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Apr 14, 1997 at 19:36:36 (EDT)
Poster: Jim Email: To: JW Subject: Re: Who is Guru Maharaji Message: Yes, yes. I must agree. The cult became one of limited exposure. Maharaji as the energizer rabbit? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Apr 15, 1997 at 16:23:45 (EDT)
Poster: Douvid Email: To: odl premie Subject: Re: Who is Guru Maharaji Message: Forgive my ridiculous question, odl premie, but do you think Maharaji is any different from me or you? It's just that I'm struggling to pigeon-hole you in my who's who of charectors. Where do you score on the 'Maharaji is a fraud/prophet' scale? (0 for fraud, 10 for God walking about in bipedal mode.) Hope you don't mind my asking. Douvid Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Apr 15, 1997 at 18:34:47 (EDT)
Poster: JW Email: To: odl premie Subject: Re: Who is Guru Maharaji Message: I have a bit of a hard time understanding your train of thought. But then the advantage of satsang/pontifications about how the perfect plan works and what GMJ does or doesn't do, have always been given a dispensation by the premies form having to make any sense whatsoever. Do you really mean to say that GMJ ate pizza and baskin robbins "for his premies?" What on earth does that mean? Did he also buy Rolls Royces, a Boeing 707 and about 6 mansions "for the premies?" How did the premies, or anyone but GMJ himself, benefit from those things? I didn't know that the ashram was an "experiment" (failed, by the way). Don't you think GMJ had an obligation to let people know that, prior to encouraging their (costly) involvement in something that was just an "experiment"? Basically you say there is no "objective accounting" for GMJ and it's all subjective. I think that radically conservative point of view allows you to drape on GMJ all your fantasies and dreams and that is the real problem. I think that is why he stays away from his followers for the most part, because if you see the way he actually is, it destroys your fantasies and dreams and you are left with what he is, a somewhat strange, unique to be sure, human being who has a good thing going and is probably deluded himself. It also allows GMJ and his minions to get away with absolutely anything because there is no objective measure. Historically, that point of view has led to a multitude of atrocities, as it did in DLM. I also wondered if the caste system you describe: (GMJ/mahatma/initiator/residence premie/ashram/rich premie/single premie/married-with-children-premie)was also intentional on GMJ's part. Is that what he came here to give us, a little bit of the India caste system right here in America? Also, how do you attribute to GMj the fact that everyone is different (like a garden)? Are you saying he made them that way? Is he the creator, preserver and destroyer after all? JW Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 16, 1997 at 07:20:14 (EDT)
Poster: old premie Email: To: Douvid Subject: Re: Who is Guru Maharaji Message: First off - sorry for 'odl' - I really was sleepy when I wrote that post. Is this question or rhetoric to get me to bare my heart so you can stomp on whatever I say? This is not meant to be an aggressive stance, but that's what we seem to have to get used to on this site. When I first saw Maharaji he was 13 and I was 24. I was sure I was going to meet some philosophical prodigy who would discuss the sutras and expound on states of consciousness. That's what I was used to from all the Indian fakirs and teachers. I'd studied hatha yoga with Satchitanand, I'd had contact on various levels with Tibetan Buddhism, TM, nam-yoho-renge-kyo, ISKON (the hare Krishna freaks)...etc. I won't go into more name-dropping, but I really was a sincere seeker, and I sought out those I thought could help, from Catholic priests and monks to new age mountain dwellers. I was supposedly well read, well studied in all that stuff. I studied religion and eastern studies at Columbia. I took Sanskrit and Tibetan, because I wanted to read everything in the ORIGINAL. I would have eventually gone on to Aramaic to complete my study of the world. I'm telling you this just as background, to let you know that I was not a fucked up adolescent waiting for a father-figure guru to take over her life. And I'd had people telling me (from India) about Maharaji for about a year, and I hadn't listened. In fact, I was rather turned off by the idea of guruism. But I did go to meet him at the airport, really expecting a smart, probably well read, YOUNG person. And what I saw, and what immediately affected me, was something and someone completely different from anyone I'd ever met before. He was not 13 years old, he was completely in control of himself and his situation. He literally awed me with a sense of other-worldniness that I hadn't expected. When I went to see his program the first night, I didn't know what to expect. All I remember of what he said that night was two things: "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink" and something about him being able to take us across that ocean. Every other teacher had always said, basically: "I can lead you to the brink, but I can't take you across." And it had always felt like an abyss, not like an ocean. Soon this is the image I had of Maharaji, and it continues to this day: Imagine a set of stairs, the cartoon kind of sweeping stairs that leads all the way from earth to heaven and beyond, the top part covered with swirly clouds. Now imagine a two year old at the foot of the steps, crawling up with two-year-old precision and effort - each step nearly as tall as the toddler. And suddenly, someone sweeps past, someone who not only has mastered the first few steps, but can run so swiflty up the entire staircase that he seems, first of all, to make a musical sound as the wind whips around him, and second, he barely has to touch the stairs - he seems to fly up them. He can be at the top or at the bottom in a matter of seconds. And yet he takes his time, he watches with amusement as the infant maneuvers and finally masters the first step. He holds his hand out, ready to catch the baby if it should fall. The baby doesn't even notice, it is too preoccupied with its own adventure. I can't say whether Maharaji is THE lord or not. I can only say that from my experience, he is so much one with that supreme energy that it doesn't make any difference to me. However, I have to warn you that if I score him a 10 on your scale, I will also have to score you a 10 and myself a 10 and JW and Mili and Jim and Chris a 10. New age bullshit? Sorry. It's utterly clear to me. Do we ever get to be masters of the staircase? Perhaps - in a million lifetimes or so. I'm not impatient. I'm enjoying the ride. Would I give him a fraud 0? No. His antics don't confuse me, I'm not bothered by all the bad press. See my reply to JW for more. So now you know what to file me under. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 16, 1997 at 07:23:54 (EDT)
Poster: old premie Email: To: JW Subject: Re: Who is Guru Maharaji Message: [First, an aside: I promised Jim a letter about a week ago so - Jim - you probably just gloss over whatever I write on here by now, but I really AM writing to you. I am going over all your posts to make sure I really answer everything, as well as I can.] Second, I want to say that I don't think I'm anybody special. I don't mean to pontificate. It's just a bad habit of mine to get too wordy, but it started when I was two years old, so don't blame Maharaji for that one. And I was tired when I wrote that last post, but I really wanted to get it out. But even so, logical reasoning has never been one of my strong points - I go off on tangents and then sometimes can't find the thread again. I'll try to follow some sort of straight course here - it's hard for me (I was just beginning to make an analogy between how rain is formed and things the human mind just can't comprehend, but I erased it). I also don't expect everyone to agree with me, either in context or in tone. In other words, I might express something you also believe in quite strongly, but the terms I choose to display it with could be so different from your own that you wouldn't even recognize it. And the other reason I may not seem to have a direct and clear train of thought is that I really haven't spent time trying to explain away what seem like such obvious dichotomies to many on this page. As I said above, the bad press doesn't affect my relationship with Maharaji, so I don't spend my tme figuring out ways to counteract it, either in my own head or by rationalizing it to other people. On pizza, one typical simple story: near one ashram where he stayed, there was a very good pizza place. The ashram premies were forbidden by ashram regulations (please don't get into who made them up) to eat outside the ashram. They didn't carry personal money. The diet was mostly brown rice and lentils, like every other ashram. When Maharaji came to town, Indian meals were cooked for him, and that was the bulk of his diet. He also always ordered two large pizzas, with various toppings. He would eat about 1/4 to 1/2 of a slice and send the rest to be distributed among the ashram premies. Since no one outside his kitchen actually saw how much he ate, he became a famous pizza lover. About cars, planes, etc.: He loves cars. He loves mechanical and electronic gadgets. No excuses for the car stuff. He grew up in a country where these things are movie screen images, not realities of daily living. Certain premies always made sure that if he got something, he got the best version possible - whether sheets and towels, tea, or cars. I don't know if he would have been satisfied with the less expensive versions. I do know that at one residence, a premie couple used to shop for us, and they'd bring the goods in a volkswagen bug. Maharaji loved that bug. He'd get in it and drive around for what seemed like hours. I never asked him, but I got the feeling that he appreciated the car mostly because these premies loved him very much. And planes? Here I must say that I would never want Maharaji flying in a commercial flight again. Even if it meant that premies could see him more, by sneaking around, and sometimes even aboard, a flight. His plane reflects what he does. Consider what the cost would be if his tours, including personnel and supplies, had to be booked commercially. Those who fly with him are the ones who work with him all the way. And since he does virtually all of the piloting, I'd hardly say that he spends his time luxuriating in the commodities it offers. In fact, he often spends 10-12 hours flying, gets a quick night's sleep at a hotel, and then does a full day event. I would think that if one wanted to be a high-class con artist, there would be easier ways of accomplishing that. Mansions? He did not buy them all. Virtually every house he lived in was rented, or loaned. I know of at least one house that was on the market - the person who represented it took it off the market for about two years while Maharaji lived there on and off. Since Maharaji did not live at any of these houses permanently, one could say that the residence premies were the ones who got the greatest advantage out of being there. As far as the ashram lifestyle is concerned, I've mentioned that in another post. This is hard to express, not because I want to rationalize it away, but because what I say could sound very much like that. I know I said 'failed experiment' - I don't think it failed for everybody. Some people are natural to that kind of lifestyle. But westerners in general tend to romanticize certain aspects of life, and then discover that they're really a lot of work, so they turn on them. The lifestyle of a renunciate - whether Catholic, Buddhist, etc. - is not the idealized commune life premies expected. A lot of us had been living in a peace/love/free-sex/acid-dominated haze, and we thought that would come with us into this Aquarian Age Hinduism that we had espoused. The premies who came back from India, and those who were here for the first time - the Mahatmas - simply assumed ashram life was the way to practice ANY spiritual endeavor. Remember, Maharaji's ashrams were not the only ones in the 70s and 80s. I know people from a lot of other groups who were just as disillusioned. I don't know how much you can blame Maharaji as a person for the ashrams. He is not the executive branch - or he wasn't at the time. He allowed all of us to test out the waters the way we thought. We made up our own versions of knowledge seminars, our own Arti ritual, our own methods for supporting the ashrams (which included those ubiquitous 'divine sales' - I came back from an out-of-town service tour to discover that all my clothes had been sold). I don't know about the running of the ashrams during the time Jim comments about (1977-the 80s) because I had already left, but I know that at the beginning they were very autonomous, and we let Ashokanand and Indian folklore do most of the ruling. Mishler was not an innocent bystander in inventing regulations, either, especially ones that didn't apply to him. That's more or less what I meant by 'experiement' - that we were the ones running it, with help from the Indian traditionalists. In my view, Maharaji let them run their course, then got rid of them. I also have no idea how Maharaji took all this about the ashrams. I know he often thought some things were ridiculous ('is it ok to laugh in the ashram?') but he also respected the ashram premies incredibly, for their commitment. I'm not going to get into Jim's heavy questions about such things as people who committed suicide in the ashram. I am not qualified, nor do I know anything about those situations. This is not evasion - it's really something I know nothing about. I did know one person who was an incredible devotee, incredibly happy in the ashram until he started having wet dreams. He blamed himself; he tried to control his body, his mind, but he kept having sexual fantasies. At the time, I did speak to him, and so did many others. I think basically we told him the same thing: this is a physical need - it isn't being met, so your body is taking care of it on its own. It's ok, enjoy it and don't worry about it. Let go and eventually it'll probably go away on its own. etc. etc. etc. But he couldn't listen. He had his sights set on being another Kabir, another Nanak, and they, of course, could NEVER have had an impure thought. So he freaked. I mean he lost his mind. The last time I saw him, he had been ordered by his psychiatrist never to go near premies again. Whose fault was this? Another premie (male) became obsessed with a premie (female) in his community. When she spurned him, partly because she wanted to live a celibate life, he followed her and her family on a vacation and hung himself on a tree outside her hotel window. Is Maharaji to be blamed for this suicide also, because the girl wanted to live a celibate life? All I'm saying here is that there may be bits that we don't see from the outside. But Maharaji gets blamed for the total, without bothering to look at the parts. That 'caste' sytem I described was our own doing - formed out of petty jealousies, desire for power, insecurities about our own positions, needs to feel 'important' to his mission. This has NOTHING to do with Maharaji. I saw him play more with certain people, while others seemed invisible. Sometimes I was one of the invisible ones, sometimes I was one of the certain people. I know what place I was in that allowed me to be visible or invisible to him. That's something I couldn't describe in a million years; although I could use very simple words, it might be completely misunderstood, so we'll keep to the physical aspects here. What I have seen over the past 10 years, though, is that Maharaji is continually trying to get rid of that pecking order. He has always tried - listen to some of the things he said in 74, 75, about who does what service. I suppose the world would be happy if he could prove that he had NO contact with anyone outside of his family. That would equalize it, at least. As for why Maharaji demands privacy, I should think it's obvious. I've mentioned before that it has been years since I've had the kind of intimacy with Maharaji that I had in the 70s, but I don't feel alienated by his life style, I have maintained a relationship that does include personal contact and communication. When someone deals with millions of people yearly, when he spends more days doing events, knowledge sessions, aspirant meetings, event planning, than he does with his own wife and children, don't you think that he deserves to have privacy and even seclusion when he IS with his family? You would not deny this to a rock star, to the head of a corporation, to a politician. And if he did open himself up to being with some people, that would automatically exclude other people. His time is bound by the same rules as anyone else's. But don't think he's completely closed himself off. I do know of at least one person who had a private meeting with him within the past year, someone who like Jim has been away for years and had serious questions for him. And I know of other occasions where he meets with people, spends time with them. In fact, the more I think about it, the less it seems that his life style has really changed, other than his refusal to spend time with the media. About the 'garden' - I didn't mean to attribute it to Maharaji. I simply said that everyone has a personality, a way of being and dressing and speaking and eating and living and even of loving him that is unique. What I was implying is that around Maharaji, unlike around many of the groups I have seen, everyone KEEPS their personallity, instead of shedding it to don black sneakers and black nehru shirts; or white saris and dhotis; or black leather, tattoos and nose rings, or polyester panstuits and bouffant hair; etc. etc. etc. An event with Maharaji is filled with an array of lifestyles, languages, cultures - and again, even if we choose to try to create a leveled society out of them, MAHARAJI SIMPLY DOESN'T. To him they're all human beings with an incredible aptitute for loving and enjoying life. I've tried to be direct and clear. I even almost stuck to the order you used. The only thing I didn't cover is about objective vs subjective. But I think this is more than long enough, and that is something that is getting hashed out continually. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 16, 1997 at 11:43:18 (EDT)
Poster: JW Email: To: old premie Subject: Re: Who is Guru Maharaji Message: I respect your experience and your viewpoints and I have no reason to believe that you don't truly believe whatever it is you believe -- I still don't have a clue. But, it does strike me that your support for your views are very selective and you absolutely refuse to confront the fact that all those positive experiences you've had may well have came from inside of you and MJ had absolutely nothing to do with them. Again, what I hear is someone who attributes all that is good to MJ and all that is bad or negative to others. But on second thought, maybe you view is even one step behind that -- maybe you think keep things hazy and vague and "I-just-don't-know" enough so you don't even make a judgment as to whether something was good or bad. That way, you don't even get to the issue of whether MJ is perfect or a con-man, and certainly you don't have to face the contradictions between what he purported himself to be and what he actually is, or the fact, as you stated, that many people were damaged in the process. Who was it said "an unexamined life is not worth living?" JW Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 16, 1997 at 13:42:30 (EDT)
Poster: old premie Email: To: JW Subject: Re: Who is Guru Maharaji Message: I appreciate your way of speaking - unlike some others on this forum, you express real concern and you seem to actually be willing to hear what others are saying before passing judgment. Some of what you attribute to 'haziness' really is refusal to speak directly of certain experiences that are: 1) intensely personal and thus I don't want them subjected to public scrutiny (e.g. you can tell me that you have a great sexual relationship with your partner - that's fine; but if you get into telling me explicit details, my presumption will be either that you are a sexual deviant or that you are interested in me that way - this may be a far-fetched example, but I'm talking about very intimate experiences - NOT SEXUAL, by the way, but this is the closest analogy I can find) and 2) The same basic reason, but from Maharaji's side. I know that he wouldn't want these experiences talked about. They are between him and me. In a court of law this reasoning wouldn't stand up. I'm sure I'd be sentenced for non-cooperation. I'm just trying to share as much as I can but still keep respect for certain facets of the relationship. But no, I don't mean to imply that I attribute all that is 'good' to Maharaji and all that is 'bad' to others. My experience is that, bodily, he lives in the world as much as we do. Does the fact that he also lives beyond it mean that every action on the physical plane has to be perfect in the world's eyes? No. Does it keep him from going through a process of growth? No. His body has grown and changed. His command of English has undergone great changes. Why shouldn't his relationship to those around him, his views about the world, his methods? Only great works of art are static and unchangeable, because that is what they're meant to be: frames of time captured for eternity in a few words, or musical notes, or bronze... But does a master (I really don't like that word - it has connotations in American English that it doesn't have in India or the UK) not have the option to change? As he moves through space and time, can't he also evolve a dance that occasionally has dissonances and shades of discord? I think it is one of the mistakes of Christianity that Jesus is seen ONLY as good. His moments of doubt, his moments of anger, are interpreted as fleeting, and rationalized to hold onto a figure of such absolute sanctity that NO one can live up to it. What if he'd lived another thirty years? And do we have the whole picture? I have gay friends who are sure Jesus was a homosexual. I'm not trying to compare Maharaji to Jesus here - or to insult anyone's religion. I'm only saying that WE REALLY DON'T KNOW. And anyone who can claim to have new first-hand information on what Jesus said and did would never be believed because there IS no more information to give out. If we believe what is written about him, we know what he did in public, we know what he said in public. We don't know why he abandoned his mother and refused to see her, we don't know what kind of relationship he had with his younger siblings, who are certainly not mentioned as disciples of his. We do know that many of his former followers turned against him and chose a political prisoner and thief over him, presumably because he was not bringing about a new social order quickly enough. But I've strayed (I told you I tend to). What I meant to say is that much as I appreciate Jesus' message, I feel more comfortable with a divinity that is more in synch with what actually happens in the world. Jehovah killed as well as saved. The Hindu trinity includes destruction and chaos as well as harmony. Nature is not beneficent - in order to build we need to destroy. etc. etc. As to your quote about self-examination - I completely agree with you. Two of my children (now 20 and 13) have gone through periods of intense self-questioning. My answer to them is: I believe that all human beings have these questions. They're frightening, because they take us to completely uncharted ground, and there is no one to go there with us. For a lot of people, these questions are too confronting, so they hide them, bury them deep within themselves. They cover them over with church and religion for pat answers. They gloss over them with relationships with other human beings, and constant companionship. But I really think that those who are willing to face the questions head on are the luckiest people. It's a hard path, because when you start out, you REALLY don't know what's at the other end. You can listen to a few people who tell you they've gone through it, but have they really? The way you are? But my experience is: stick it out. It's worth it to KNOW who you are. I did not take Shri Hans's "commandments" lightly. But I also did not interpret "never leave room for doubt..." the way a lot of others seem to have. I've mentioned this before on this forum. Basically - I don't think he ever meant "drown you doubts, shove them down where you can't see them". I have always felt that this means: find the answer out as soon as possible, then the doubt will be removed. And the answers have never let me down. Again, I've gone on for much longer than I expected. I'll let you stop and take a breath. Bye. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 16, 1997 at 14:08:29 (EDT)
Poster: JW Email: To: old premie Subject: Re: Who is Guru Maharaji Message: Dear Old (how old is "old"?) As I have said to another post here, I think you are very lucky and I envy you. You seem to have been able to take the pronouncements of GMJ and those around him (like "surrender", "Lord of the Universe" and his commandments) with a grain of salt and not take them literally. Like I said, I envy your ability to do that. I guess I am much more of a literal (or linear) person and I took what MJ said at face value, after all, he was everything to me; he was my lord and master and my savior. So, when he said "never leave room for doubt in your mind," I believed him and that's what I tried to do. When he said (repeatedly) that you had to surrender you life to him, that's what I tried to do in the only way I knew how, by meditating, physically serving him, and by giving him everything I had. Also, I was very young and inexperiened with life myself at the time and wasn't exactly feeling self-reliant. I was looking for an answer and for someone to loveme. It also meant severing my family ties and putting my life on hold for 9 years. Those things are still a source of pain for me today. I wish I had been able to disregard what he said, or to give them my own interpretations, but I couldn't. If I could have, it would have saved me a lot of pain. Like I sais, I think you are one of the lucky ones. [By the way, my partner and I have great sex, but I guess that is the topic of another website.] JW Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 16, 1997 at 17:01:29 (EDT)
Poster: Douche Email: To: odl premie Subject: Re: Who is Guru Maharaji Message: >Is this question or rhetoric to get me to bare my heart so you can stomp on whatever I say? Absolutely, odl, that's the name of the game around here. We're definitely not into all that guru-mumb-jumbo, Lord of the Universe crap in this neck of the woods. This site was created for those who recognise a fraudster for a fraudster. Any more than zero on the scale and you're just another bovine bleater. I sat at the guy's feet when he was 14 and you're right; he was nothing short of miraculous. But did it ever occur to you that we often see what we want to see and ignore the warning signs? The knowledge is wonderful. But Maharaji and his unholy family have hijacked our birthright and are holding it to ransome. 'This magic key will not work unless you do what I say,' he warns. And because it doesn't unlock the heavenly gates, you start believing that it's your fault for not kissing his white, wooly socks quite so fervently as the next sheep in line. You say you've checked out all the competition and that Maharaji comes out top of the pile; that he's 'so much one with that supreme energy'. But you really don't know enough about the guy to make those kind of judgements. He's a class A act, but that's all it is - an act. 'So what?' you say. 'As long as I'm touching base, that's all that matters.' Fair enough. But you will be knocking on the door of 50 in the not-too-distant future. Don't you think it's about time you recognised some fairly basic truths? 1. Maharaji is not enlightened. 2. Maharaji has suffered from alcoholism 3. Maharaji's own mother and brothers say he's a fraud 4. Maharaji has told lies 5. Maharaji has earned considerable amounts of money 6. Maharaji refuses to answer honest questions 7. Maharaji was arrested for jewel smuggling 8. Maharaji uses fear to entrap people 9. Maharaji could tell people to lie down under purple sheets, put plastic bags over their heads, and follow him to Planet Zogg and there's an awful lot of them would say; let me go first, oh Master'. 10, 11, 12... and on... and on... >So now you know what to file me under. Bovine bleater? Douche Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 16, 1997 at 17:07:12 (EDT)
Poster: Douche Email: To: odl Subject: Re: Who is Guru Maharaji Message: >Bovine bleater? I'm sorry, odl, I didn't mean to be rude. My apoolgies. Whatever turns you on... as we used to say. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 16, 1997 at 19:20:17 (EDT)
Poster: Another old premie Email: To: old premie Subject: Re: Who is Guru Maharaji Message: Dear old premie, you wrote: I feel more comfortable with a divinity that is more in synch with what actually happens in the world. Jehovah killed as well as saved. The Hindu trinity includes destruction and chaos as well as harmony. Nature is not beneficent - in order to build we need to destroy. etc. etc I have been following your posts with interest. Your opinions seem sincerely expressed and based on experiences. However the above seems at worryingly at odds with your usual balanced tone. I hope this appreciation of the destructive powers of nature doesn t in any way condone, in your opinion, the terrible abuses that have gone on in the name of Divinity throughout history. I think that you have to be extremely careful here. You re not really impressed with those dangerous religious concepts are you? I was really wondering if anywhere in your lengthy scriptures you would ever let slip anything really daft. You are definately getting close here. Don t get me wrong I love your image, the ageing hippy who has been through it all , fuddling about in his slipperes trying to get this damn computer working, giving his kids little gems of wisdom to remember him fondly by as time goes by. Really, I would love to have you to dinner , chill out over a fine wine and politely continue to reflect upon our feelings about Maharaji. I am also seriously worried that, with the advancing years, you re losing your ability to seperate fact from fiction and that your interpretations of your experiences are basically the sentimental memories of somebody who is unable to move on and face the more prosaic explanations for Maharaji s appeal. Another old premie Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 17, 1997 at 00:04:45 (EDT)
Poster: old premie Email: To: Another old premie Subject: Re: Who is Guru Maharaji Message: Gee! I seem to have created quite an image here. I'll have to reinterpret myself - I was going to keep quiet about it, but the fact is that I'm not a male body. I'm the female version of premie. It's the slippers image that finally got to me and makes me divulge this one aspect. (I did mention that I have a husband a couple of times, but no one seemed to pick up on it) On to your more important point. No. I am not a religious apologist. First of all, I actually love the teachings of Jesus and spent quite a few years of my childhood trying to become a catholic saint (even though my parents would never even let me be baptized). I am basically a pacifist and was a complete vegetarian for many years - before and after receiving Knowledge. I am staunchly against the death penalty ... And sometimes I run on at the mouth. Perhaps a better analogy would have been that Krishna was a trickster in his youth, and THAT didn't obscure his divinity. But there is something deeper. This does not to condone religious cataclysms like the inquisition and witch hunts and the hollocaust. But then that was not divinity, was it? That was human beings playing at producing a perfect society by destroying whatever they don't like the look of. The aspect of the divine that I am talking about is that mystery of emotion that allows those things to happen. And the game is that we stand on either one side or the other: god fighting demon. But if the Creator is all powerful, why doesn't the Creator STOP all the pain and destruction? I haven't reached an enlightened stage where these things all melt into one. Perhaps there isn't such a thing. But I do see that the pain and suffering are part of the whole picture. The Jehovah's witnesses frustrate me with their simplistic heaven-on-earth plan, where we all have perfect 28 year old bodies eternally, no disease, no death, no hatred, no crime, etc etc. I may not be expressing myself very well here, but all I'm saying is that I don't expect the material world to be perfect, and I don't curse my Creator when things don't go 'my' way. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 17, 1997 at 04:05:01 (EDT)
Poster: Bill Cooper Email: To: old premie Subject: Re: Who is Guru Maharaji Message: Dear old premie, I have read all you ve said recently and I really enjoy reading about your personal experiences with Maharaji. Let me state my position. I am very mixed up. Emotionally I want Maharaji to be the person his premies say he is. I want it all to be true. I want to feel there is more to life than *just stuff to do*. I can still enjoy watching a video of Maharaji. I enjoy being with premies especially here in Singapore where Maharaji is not allowed and the premie scene is very much underground consequently premies are making a very real risk to be his followers. My heart says my mind is getting in the way of my connection with Maharaji. My mind says disregarding the evidence that is all around you in favour of wish fulfilment is the way of Heavens gate et al . Doubt is natures way of making you make reality checks. When I started to fly light aircraft I was puzzled by the constant checking and rechecking of instruments and flight controls on the ground , I felt if they had that much doubt about the airworthiness of the aircraft perhaps we shouldn t be flying it. That is untill the day when I discovered on my recheck that I missed it first time round because I was too busy talking to the tower. Doubt even paranoia can be healthy responses to our experience of the world. I dont doubt the ability of my plane to keep me in the air but I make sure I do a damn good pre-fight check. Aircraft are like lovers if you cant trust them there not much fun to be with. The same could be said of Gurus. I need answers to serious doubts that I have and those answers dont want to seem to go away by meditation. Please old premie can you say that Maharaji did not have a drink problem when you lived at the residence Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 17, 1997 at 09:11:23 (EDT)
Poster: old premie Email: To: Bill Cooper Subject: Re: Who is Guru Maharaji Message: Yes I can say that Maharaji did NOT have a drink problem when I lived at the residence. I don't really have a lot of time right now to post a long reply. I suggest that you watch, if you can get ahold of it, the Montreal September 1995 video to premies. It was an event at which Maharaji really bared himself as a person on a more private level. You have no idea how much it touches me that you trust what I am saying. I know that on forums like this there can be so much deception. I could ramble on about things that are basically hearsay, but I'll repeat this again: I will not say anything that I did not experience myself first-hand. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 17, 1997 at 11:00:20 (EDT)
Poster: Bill Cooper Email: To: old premie Subject: Re: Who is Guru Maharaji Message: Thanks for your reply I'll try and see that video but when I'm not sure The government here doesnt allow M videos into the country so supply is a bit limited. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 17, 1997 at 11:07:31 (EDT)
Poster: Bill Cooper Email: To: old premie Subject: Re: Who is Guru Maharaji Message: Sorry must be senile dementia I meant to ask were you there before during or after Mishlers time ? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 17, 1997 at 14:34:36 (EDT)
Poster: old premie Email: To: Bill Cooper Subject: Re: Who is Guru Maharaji Message: mostly before and during, on and off after Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 17, 1997 at 14:34:54 (EDT)
Poster: Chris Email: To: Bill Cooper Subject: Re: Who is Guru Maharaji Message: Thanks for your reply I'll try and see that video but when I'm not sure The government here doesnt allow M videos into the country so supply is a bit limited. What do they have against M? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 18, 1997 at 05:09:47 (EDT)
Poster: Bill Cooper Email: To: Chris Subject: Re: Who is Guru Maharaji Message: Thanks for your reply I'll try and see that video but when I'm not sure The government here doesnt allow M videos into the country so supply is a bit limited. What do they have against M? Well this is hearsay but apparently in the early days premies went out on the street and demonstrated that the lord has come and overnight they became an illegal organisation. That sort of thing is not unusual here but its not cool to talk about. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 18, 1997 at 05:13:38 (EDT)
Poster: Bill Cooper Email: To: old premie Subject: Re: Who is Guru Maharaji Message: mostly before and during, on and off after So do you think the alcohol thing is a malicious rumour or is there some basis for it? Sorry to keep going on about it but it does seem to be one aspect of Maharajis actions that it should be possible to get enough evidence for or against. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 18, 1997 at 06:15:26 (EDT)
Poster: Anonymous Email: To: Bill Cooper Subject: Re: Who is Guru Maharaji Message: Just surfed in, havn't got time to elaborate but will, so keep in touch. I personally have heard from at least 6 seperate people who I trust vey much, that MJ has, or at some time had, a drink habit that bordered on alcoholism. Does this mean he is'nt trustworthy? I dunno I've heard much more unrepeatable stuff about his private life. I tell you I have a hard time integrating it. Here are some quotes I found on this site (they are not from the people I mentioned who topld me personally): "Even though he was supposedly reviewing the means to perfect peace to all of his following, he himself had tremendous problems of anxiety which he combated with alcohol. It even developed into a high bloodpressure condition caused by essential hypertension, which is a form of internalising anxiety." "Earlier in the show, I made reference to his own psychological degeneration. The anxiety that is caused to him by the role that he is in is tremendous. Unlike what he advocates, he is not capable of dealing with it by means of meditation. He ends up drinking excessively in order to cope with the stress. It was very sad to see him drinking himself into a stupor day after day." Reproduced from: Bob Mischler's radio interview Did you ever see the book "Soulrush" by the girl who left Maharaji in '74, just after Amherst [where Mahararji introduced his new bride as a goddess]? She was just an office grunt, but a highly placed one. In fact she worked at headquarters in Denver and had a fair bit of access to Maharaji and those closest to him. She, too, claims that Maharaji, then 16, had developed quite a drinking problem. She claims that Maharaji was drunk during some of his satsangs at Millenium. I dunno. She sure didn't seem like your basic LIAR. Was she mislead, mistaken? I dunno. But I'd like to, wouldn't you? Now even if Maharaji was drunk just when he was supposed to be 'inaugurating a 1,000 years of peace' [small print- for people who want peace], you might still argue "lila" [divine play / test kind of thing]. But we're not there yet. First thing to determine: was he? From: jim heller - heller@islandnet.com newsgroup: ex-cult archive Date: 1996/12/19 Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 18, 1997 at 14:50:51 (EDT)
Poster: Chris Email: To: Bill Cooper Subject: Re: Who is Guru Maharaji Message: mostly before and during, on and off after So do you think the alcohol thing is a malicious rumour or is there some basis for it? Sorry to keep going on about it but it does seem to be one aspect of Maharajis actions that it should be possible to get enough evidence for or against. Wether M drank or drinks alcohol or not, do you see any evidence of malfunction in his talks? There are certainly a huge selection of videos to view and judge these days. I am quite impressed by how well M conducts himself at all his talks. I have never seen him stumble for lack of something reasonable to say when under pressure in front of large live audiences. And I don't see him reading off notes. I have no problem with people judging his message. I am not sure what benefit juding him personally will produce. He has been judged personally ever since I first saw him when he was 14. I think he was a midget back then. Sometimes he fooled with water pistols too much. And I guess he bopped Gary in the nose. I asked a friend of mine what she thought of the discussion about alcohol. I was suprised when she said that she would prefer a teacher who drank a bit. A bit more down to earth. Not a do-gooder. Some people want a saint, some want a sinner and some will take either. You can't please all of the people all the time. Does GOD have a sense of humour since 'he/she' created you and I and marijuana? Congac - the French's fault. Singapore Sling - the English. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 18, 1997 at 15:08:36 (EDT)
Poster: JW Email: To: Anonymous Subject: Re: Who is Guru Maharaji Message: It was Sophia Collier who wrote Soul Rush after she left DLM and rejected GMJ and who reported on his drinking problem in the 70s, as did Mishler, who basically said GMJ was a raving drunk much of the time and that he drank out of self-doubt and anxiety. But as I said on the earlier site, Maharaj Ji's personal lawyer left and bacame an ex-premie in the late 1980's and she told me personally (she was someone I had known for years) that GMJ had a severe alcoholism problem then, and that he preferred expensive cognac as the drug of choice. She also said that it was common knowledge among those at the "Office of Guru Maharaj Ji," then in Miami Beach, that GMJ both had a drinking problem and that he was currently cheating on his wife, apparently with other ditzy blondes like "Durga Ji" whom I believe GMJ said was the reincarnation of the great destroyer. [Maybe he should be careful of her wrath.] Mishler said adamantly that he was not aware of GMJ having affairs outside his marriage (although he was pretty young then), which only makes me believe his testimony about GMJ's drinking all the more. If he were making up lies to do nothing but trash GMJ, he could have made up sexual misconduct lies as well, but he didn't. JW Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 18, 1997 at 15:16:08 (EDT)
Poster: JW Email: To: JW Subject: Re: Who is Guru Maharaji Message: Oh, by the way Sophia Collier went on to found SoHo Sodas, which became a multi-million dollar company and has since founded Working Assets Investments, which is a socially conscious investment firm, which I believe is affiliated with Working Assests Long Distance, which happens to be my long distance (politically correct) phone company. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 18, 1997 at 16:06:44 (EDT)
Poster: old premie Email: To: Bill Cooper Subject: Re: Who is Guru Maharaji Message: You seem quite familiar with airplanes. Do you think anyone could be a 'raving alcoholic' and be able to pilot a plane day after day? (we're not talking about professional pilots who go out twice a week here - we're talking about every other day 10-12 hrs of flying) And then spend the next day working with community organizers and doing a program? I saw Maharaji 'tipsy' only once. He was silly, but not out of control. I've been at dinners where he's had a drink or two, and they didn't show. And I know of a time he shared a bhang milkshake with some premies in India (third-hand, I know, but one of the imbibers is a very good friend and told me about it - she had a rather odd but 'cosmic' experience from it) About Mishler's interview: I also think Mishler was being as honest as he knew how when he spoke on that radio interview. I too felt that honesty JW speaks of when he said that to his knowledge, Maharaji didn't have any affairs. On the other hand, I know that when we have an agenda, we tend to lose perspective. This is what JW and Deena are accusing me of, and of course it's true. NONE of us can be clear and objective when we have a goal set, because our sights are focused only on the goal. We don't allow extraneous information to be brought in. I think Bob had a definite goal even when he was president of DLM, and when that goal wasn't met, he lost track of why he was with Maharaji in the first place. I'm not accusing him of lying, I think he misinterpreted. That's only my opinion. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 18, 1997 at 16:35:42 (EDT)
Poster: Jim Email: To: old premie Subject: Re: Who is Guru Maharaji Message: If you're so principalled and wary of your own natural tendency to UNFAIRLY bolster your argument (as we all should be) what's the answer? I'll tell you: adhering to the 'rules' of fair discussion. Means direct, responsive answers and respect for logic. Here, for example, you're advancing an argument: drunks don't fly, Maharaji flies, thus he's no drunk. (Short version). If your argument itself is wrong are you interested? Or is this a one way street? Are you only interested at 'playing' at rational discourse? In that case your integrity's at issue. Well? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 18, 1997 at 17:10:04 (EDT)
Poster: JW Email: To: Chris Subject: Re: Who is Guru Maharaji Message: Chris, oh please, you make it so easy. I found GMJ's satsangs to be basically incoherent. Have you ever tried to read one? Is English skills really sucked to, despite the fact that he had been in the country for years. How about the time he said repeatedly that the reason there was an oil shortage was because there weren't enouth "Dinah Shores?" [I assumed he meants "Dinasaurs" but even that is wrong -- they had nothing to do with the formation of oil deposits.] Do you think it might have been drunken stupor that caused this? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 18, 1997 at 17:55:13 (EDT)
Poster: Chris Email: To: Douche Subject: Re: Who is Guru Maharaji Message: >Is this question or rhetoric to get me to bare my heart so you can stomp on whatever I say? Absolutely, odl, that's the name of the game around here. We're definitely not into all that guru-mumb-jumbo, Lord of the Universe crap in this neck of the woods. This site was created for those who recognise a fraudster for a fraudster. Any more than zero on the scale and you're just another bovine bleater. I sat at the guy's feet when he was 14 and you're right; he was nothing short of miraculous. But did it ever occur to you that we often see what we want to see and ignore the warning signs? The knowledge is wonderful. But Maharaji and his unholy family have hijacked our birthright and are holding it to ransome. 'This magic key will not work unless you do what I say,' he warns. And because it doesn't unlock the heavenly gates, you start believing that it's your fault for not kissing his white, wooly socks quite so fervently as the next sheep in line. You say you've checked out all the competition and that Maharaji comes out top of the pile; that he's 'so much one with that supreme energy'. But you really don't know enough about the guy to make those kind of judgements. He's a class A act, but that's all it is - an act. 'So what?' you say. 'As long as I'm touching base, that's all that matters.' Fair enough. But you will be knocking on the door of 50 in the not-too-distant future. Don't you think it's about time you recognised some fairly basic truths? 1. Maharaji is not enlightened. 2. Maharaji has suffered from alcoholism 3. Maharaji's own mother and brothers say he's a fraud 4. Maharaji has told lies 5. Maharaji has earned considerable amounts of money 6. Maharaji refuses to answer honest questions 7. Maharaji was arrested for jewel smuggling 8. Maharaji uses fear to entrap people 9. Maharaji could tell people to lie down under purple sheets, put plastic bags over their heads, and follow him to Planet Zogg and there's an awful lot of them would say; let me go first, oh Master'. 10, 11, 12... and on... and on... >So now you know what to file me under. Bovine bleater? Douche The 'Bovine bleater's club (a new cult). That's you Douche! You and the other 'Poor ME I couldn't go to grad school or have sex or have a drink or have a life whiners'. 'M has zits, M wouldn't let me go to grad school, M stole my $, M drinks, M tells lies, M is a jewel thief, M is fat, M has a big camp in Nigeria, M hurt my self esteem, M is the Purple People Eater.' Starting to look like a pretty pitiful group. You people definitely have seen a first class act and should be quite successful from the input. Instead its blame, blame, blame, bleat, bleat bleat ... Ridiculous. But you do have that option. You do have free will. At least Jim Heller managed to get his law degree. Congrats. You do know that rock-n-roll is music of the Devil. Don't ignore those warning signs - g. Seen any commies lately? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 18, 1997 at 18:04:38 (EDT)
Poster: Chris Email: To: Douche Subject: Re: Who is Guru Maharaji Message: >Bovine bleater? I'm sorry, odl, I didn't mean to be rude. My apoolgies. Whatever turns you on... as we used to say. Do you really mean it? The people who post here from both sides of the farmyard fence are pretty cool. What do you mean by 'as we USED TO say'? Have another one ... Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 18, 1997 at 18:24:04 (EDT)
Poster: Chris Email: To: JW Subject: Re: Who is Guru Maharaji Message: Chris, oh please, you make it so easy. I found GMJ's satsangs to be basically incoherent. Have you ever tried to read one? Is English skills really sucked to, despite the fact that he had been in the country for years. How about the time he said repeatedly that the reason there was an oil shortage was because there weren't enouth 'Dinah Shores?' [I assumed he meants 'Dinasaurs' but even that is wrong -- they had nothing to do with the formation of oil deposits.] Do you think it might have been drunken stupor that caused this? What's easy? 'Incoherent' - I don't agree with you. I find Maharaji to be quite intelligent. I have quite a large personal video library of his talks and did go to India in 72. I am pretty 'educated' myself after 7 years at University of California San Diego with 2 years in Engineering Grad school. I TAed the 3rd year course in Partial Differential Equations. A degree in Management Science with 25 courses in my major. 4 quarters of Chemistry, Genetics, Poli Sci stuff, 6 quarter sequence of world history, Pyschology, Russian, French, lots of advanced math courses. I don't use much of it today in my job. All computer science stuff. All self taught with about a 1000 book comp science library in my office and hallway. Ask Jim about my recent reading list. I also got his 2 favorites books. No time yet. Nothing against you personally JW. Sometime you do seem to complain and blame a bit much. What ever happened to your career? Did you get one going? You seem to be doing O.K. Anyway, no hard feelings, good luck, CD Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 18, 1997 at 18:24:20 (EDT)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Chris Subject: Re: Who is Guru Maharaji Message: You are so singularly stupid I'm starting to wonder if there might not be a God after all. I used to cringe reading your stuff. You humour is sooooo limp, your 'points' are so trivial and dull, your 'attacks' are so fey. Now that we've got a few more people on the forum I'm kind of glad you'res ticking around. What I do now is read the comments of the ex-premies and then, like going through the comics, take a look at OP's efforts to 'sincerely' avoid reality. She gets a little boring but, hey, it's sometimes worth a laugh. Then, Chris, every one in a while, I'll read something you've posted. It's been days since I have. (Remember how just last week I promised to avoid talking to you entirely until you dealt with this 'Maharaji's message hasn't changed since '72' nonsense?). So, what can I say? I'm human. Anyway, I read your posts here today for the first time in a fe days. You are sooooo pathetic. If they made a little 'Chris' doll it'd be the kind you scrunched up in your hand for a little stress relief. Like any bore your major threat is the fact that you're oblivious to your nature or image. Like some jerk Chevy Chase might play -- no, make that Jerry Lewis -- you truly 'just don't get it' So, what's left? Ignore you or enjoy you in a junk-food kind of way and pass you around to a few friends who can appreciate subtle, real-life humour (against, not with, you). Mili used to serve that role. In fact the two of you complemented each other quite nicely. Like the Smegley brothers from Second City TV. Like Dumb and Dumber. If this were my page I might boot you off. But Scott's a quaker and that's his problem. (No wonder the quakers never took over the world!). So, please, Chris, carry on. Carry on. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 18, 1997 at 19:36:47 (EDT)
Poster: JW Email: To: Chris Subject: Re: Who is Guru Maharaji Message: How nice for you, Chris. I'm very impressed at how happy and blissful you are. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 18, 1997 at 20:43:12 (EDT)
Poster: Brian Email: To: old premie Subject: Re: Who is Guru Maharaji Message: >I think Bob had a definite goal even when he was president >of DLM, and when that goal wasn't met, he lost track of why >he was with Maharaji in the first place. I'm not accusing >him of lying, I think he misinterpreted. I'm sure he didn't "misinterpret" someone "literally crying on [his] shoulder". If you have ever hosted a drunk on your shoulder, you will remember how impressed you were with their breath. Bob Mishler was the most clear-headed person I met in DLM when I wandered in years ago. I spoke to him for about 45 minutes on the phone after the Jonestown story broke and he had given an interview to the Denver papers saying that the same sort of blind devotion to a leader was present within the DLM community. I was deeply saddened to learn on this page that he had died. As for why he was with Maharaji - he believed that they both shared a COMMON goal. The phone numbers were in the book back then, to further that goal. Scott: Thanks for having this page. I've been reading it "religiously" :) Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 18, 1997 at 22:32:55 (EDT)
Poster: Chris Email: To: Jim Subject: Re: Who is Guru Maharaji Message: > 'You are so singularly stupid I'm starting to wonder if there might not be a God after all.' > 'You are sooooo pathetic. If they made a little 'Chris' doll it'd be the kind you scrunched up in your hand for a little stress relief.' Thanks for the compliments. You do a very good job advertising your high standards of logic. > 'If this were my page I might boot you off.' Yeah, I know Jim, you really are a censorship kind of guy. > ' But Scott's a quaker and that's his problem.' Maybe Scott enjoys his life as a Quaker. Let me know when you come visit Southern California. It should be interesting to meet you. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 18, 1997 at 22:53:42 (EDT)
Poster: Chris Email: To: JW Subject: Re: Who is Guru Maharaji Message: How nice for you, Chris. I'm very impressed at how happy and blissful you are. Thanks. I am doing pretty well. I like San Diego. So what is your career these days? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Apr 19, 1997 at 01:45:38 (EDT)
Poster: old premie [op to you] Email: To: Jim Subject: Re: Who is Guru Maharaji Message: No. I suggest that Bill reach his own conclusions. Drunks don't fly well. (We know that they do fly - alcoholism is a major problem among professional pilots.) Maharaji is still alive and still flying. Therefore either he can hold his liquor as well as Baba Ram Das's Maharaji held his acid, or he doesn't fly drunk. Or he is not a drunk. I prefer to look at all possible conclusions. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Apr 19, 1997 at 01:59:54 (EDT)
Poster: old premie Email: To: Chris Subject: Re: Who is Guru Maharaji Message: Jim notwithstanding, I was about to thank you again for welcome comic relief. When I arrived on this site a week or so ago, I saw this little in-group of people who seemed to know each other quite well duking it out. I never meant to join the inner circle - I just can't manage to keep my mouth shut. And now JP and Mili have abandoned us here to the wolves. I miss JP's devotional posts, too. Truth is, I don't really know what I'm doing here. I don't expect that anyone is going to turn around and run back to Maharaji's arms because of anything I say. It HAS made me look at myself a bit more in perspective. I went to a video event tonight and watched Maharaji with some of JW and Deena's consciousness. But I'm still stuck on him - sorry JW. So we are all a bright, ostensibly successful bunch of people. Nobody here has the IQ of a slug. I wonder if any real conclusions will be reached, or if screen names will just appear, make their mark, and finally wander off in frustration on both sides. Ugh. It must be late at night - I'm depressing myself. By the way JW - practicing knowledge does work for me too. It's not just having had a one-to-one relationship with Maharaji. I'm very sorry your close contact with him was so negative. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Apr 19, 1997 at 11:17:18 (EDT)
Poster: Dave P Email: To: everyone Subject: Re: Who is Guru Maharaji Message: In 1987, one of MJ's Reigate (UK) residence staff told me that MJ (quote) "has a drink problem". This person doesn't tell lies, I have known her for many years. Naturally, you only have my word for this and you don't know me. However, it's worth considering. David P Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Apr 19, 1997 at 12:39:16 (EDT)
Poster: Chris Email: To: old premie Subject: Re: Who is Guru Maharaji Message: Here is an address for me in case you split. Nice writing! 73311.2101@compuserve.com Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Apr 19, 1997 at 13:15:21 (EDT)
Poster: Jim Email: To: old premie [op to you] Subject: Re: Who is Guru Maharaji Message: Bad reasoning. How 'bout 'just b/c he's an alcoholic, it doesn't mean he's always drunk'? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Apr 19, 1997 at 13:18:13 (EDT)
Poster: Jim Email: To: old premie Subject: Re: Who is Guru Maharaji Message: So we are all a bright, ostensibly successful bunch of people. Nobody here has the IQ of a slug. I wonder if any real conclusions will be reached, or if screen names will just appear, make their mark, and finally wander off in frustration on both sides Hey, that's cool! I just learned how to copy and paste here. OP, don't dismay. Lots of chance we can reslove certain issues here IF, that is IF we're all committed to rational discourse. I am. How's bout you? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Apr 20, 1997 at 00:10:12 (EDT)
Poster: op Email: To: Jim Subject: Re: Who is Guru Maharaji Message: So we are all a bright, ostensibly successful bunch of people. Nobody here has the IQ of a slug. I wonder if any real conclusions will be reached, or if screen names will just appear, make their mark, and finally wander off in frustration on both sides Hey, that's cool! I just learned how to copy and paste here. OP, don't dismay. Lots of chance we can reslove certain issues here IF, that is IF we're all committed to rational discourse.I am. How's bout you? re: rational discourse Can I trust anything you say? How about the rational thinking in the next post? How about your own 'April Fools' to me under 'clean slate'? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Apr 20, 1997 at 13:07:40 (EDT)
Poster: Jim Email: To: op Subject: Re: Who is Guru Maharaji Message: I don't know what you're talking about in either case. I'm not sure what the 'next post' is and I can't remember playing any joke on you. Okay, I'll go look again. In any event, it's not ME you have to trust, it's yourself. No, this isn't some newage blethering. It's just my way of saying that you need to answer whether or not you're committed to rational discourse here. Fuck anyone else. Will YOU play fair? Now, let me look for this big red herring of yours. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Apr 20, 1997 at 13:19:48 (EDT)
Poster: Jim Email: To: OP Subject: Re: Who is Guru Maharaji Message: Oh THAT? You've got to be kidding! That's called 'sarcasm' OP. Maybe you can get your 'comic relief' guy, Chris, to explain it to you. Are you serious? You can't be. Now, you're putting ME on, right? You're not actually saying that b/c I can get sarcastic you don't know if you can discuss things rationally. You're not really saying that are you? I can't believe it. I can't believe it. OP, I'm going to suggest something to you and I want you to please refelct on this a bit. It strikes me that all Maharaji's apologists, like yourself, don't want to discuss Maharaji rationally. Why do I say that? Oh, I dunno. Maybe it's the fact that so often they: 1) say they don't want to 2) say that they 'can't' 3) say that they shouldn't 4) say taht they 'aren't like that' 5) say that they ARE discussing Maharaji rationally but won't WILLINGLY subject their arguments to close inspection 6) try to change the subject any time it gets a little hard to defend Maharaji (what you and Chris did with my pinata satsang was classic) and all sorts of other things. What do you think? Do you think you're actually psychologically able to really, honestly discuss this subject? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Apr 20, 1997 at 19:03:09 (EDT)
Poster: JW Email: To: old premie Subject: Re: Who is Guru Maharaji Message: Thanks, Old Premie. I do have respect for your experience and your views, despite the fact that I am very skeptical because of my own experience, and because I think I was, at one time, saying much the same things you are now and firmly believing them to be true. Funny thing how the experience of the ultimate truth can be so different for different people. Maybe it's not a universal after all and rather a belief system/religion that is helpful for some people and not others? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Apr 20, 1997 at 21:58:24 (EDT)
Poster: JW Email: To: old premie Subject: Re: Who is Guru Maharaji Message: Jim notwithstanding, I was about to thank you again for welcome comic relief. When I arrived on this site a week or so ago, I saw this little in-group of people who seemed to know each other quite well duking it out. I never meant to join the inner circle - I just can't manage to keep my mouth shut. And now JP and Mili have abandoned us here to the wolves. I miss JP's devotional posts, too. Truth is, I don't really know what I'm doing here. I don't expect that anyone is going to turn around and run back to Maharaji's arms because of anything I say. It HAS made me look at myself a bit more in perspective. I went to a video event tonight and watched Maharaji with some of JW and Deena's consciousness. But I'm still stuck on him - sorry JW. So we are all a bright, ostensibly successful bunch of people. Nobody here has the IQ of a slug. I wonder if any real conclusions will be reached, or if screen names will just appear, make their mark, and finally wander off in frustration on both sides. Ugh. It must be late at night - I'm depressing myself. By the way JW - practicing knowledge does work for me too. It's not just having had a one-to-one relationship with Maharaji. I'm very sorry your close contact with him was so negative. I just re-read your last post and I would like to say that I find it condescending (in the premie, spiritual ego, feigned concern sort of say) and offensive. Just because you consider yourself saved and consider me confused or lost, it does not give you the right to say you feel sorry for me. I utterly reject that false and patronizing pity. I'm really quite familiar with that tactic having used it many times myself (I am sorry to say) on people who left the fold and rejected the guru. That sort of pity is the last refuge of the truly programmed. Oh, by the way, it would not be possible for me to care less whether you follow the guru or not. I just think the other side of the story needs to be presented and that is why I bother here (well, also because it's great fun). The fact that there is an "other side to the story" is the real problem for the lord of the universe, not whether some person rejects him, as that has already happened thousands of times. JW Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Apr 21, 1997 at 00:07:48 (EDT)
Poster: Bill Cooper Email: To: everyone Subject: Re: Who is Guru Maharaji Message: Can you ever reach a conclusion on a forum such as this? So far I have concluded for myself that ; 1) There is far too much hearsay and not enough direct evidence from people who wish to come forward and not remain anonymous. 2) reading through all the letters so far I do feel there is a case to be answered on Maharaji and an alleged drink problem. Its not enough to argue that since Maharaji is a pilot he cant be an alcoholic. I used to know a guy who was a helicopter pilot for the Omani air force and I used to be a body for them when I had nothing better to do. They would take me out and dump me in the sea and then come back and rescue me. This guy had a serious drink problem, a bottle of scotch a day, he had big problems trying to hover when he was drying out but otherwise was a very good pilot. There seemed to be a lot of people who know someone who allegedly had direct contact with Maharaji who reckon he had a drink problem. We are not talking tipsy and in good spirits but alcoholic, maudlin showing signs of psychic disintergration . Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Apr 21, 1997 at 00:18:58 (EDT)
Poster: old premie Email: To: JW Subject: Re: Who is Guru Maharaji Message: More misunderstandings, it seems. I didn't mean to say that I pity you, that I consider you confused and lost. I seriously meant only that I am sorry your contact with Maharaji was so negative. Like I'm sorry you twisted your ankle when you stumbled into a pothole. Like I'm sorry your little sister broke your favorite cup. But with more importance. It doesn't imply pity or blame. And no, I seriously don't consider you confused or lost. I have faith in the human spirit. And I know we each have our own path [new agey as this may sound]. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Apr 21, 1997 at 00:24:32 (EDT)
Poster: old premie Email: To: bill cooper Subject: Re: Who is Guru Maharaji Message: I wish I could say this: Please watch the innumerable videos Maharaji has made recently, and please reach your own conclusions as to what he's doing or not. But you've said it's hard for you to have access to videos. If I find anything out, I will let you know. I really can't say anything about his private life in the past 10 years. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Apr 21, 1997 at 01:16:07 (EDT)
Poster: JW Email: To: old premie Subject: Re: Who is Guru Maharaji Message: I guess I don't get the distinction, or maybe it's a distinction without a difference. The reason it's condescending is because you ASSUME (didn't the lord say "it makes an ass out of you and me"?) you can categorize my experiences with GMJ as "negative" and to the extent they may have been "unpleasant" you think they are something to be sorry about. You assume it would have been better for me to have "pleasant" experiences with GMJ. Just maybe, in these "unpleasant" experiences I was seeing what was objectively and truly there, which bothered me at the time, but helped me see the true reality of what was going on, and to and get me free from the programming. They would then have to be, and are to me, "positive" experiences. But coming from where you are, feeling superior in seeing the light and all, you don't see that. The very fact that you can feel sorry for someone from your lofty heights and express that, is condescending in my opinion. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Apr 21, 1997 at 10:53:58 (EDT)
Poster: old premie Email: To: JW Subject: Re: Who is Guru Maharaji Message: what lofty heights? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Apr 21, 1997 at 11:09:25 (EDT)
Poster: JW Email: To: old premie Subject: Re: Who is Guru Maharaji Message: Please don't feign blissful ignorance -- it's insulting to both of us. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Apr 21, 1997 at 11:28:18 (EDT)
Poster: JW Email: To: Bill Cooper Subject: Re: Who is Guru Maharaji Message: Bill, there is plenty of anecdotal testimony from people who were around Guru Maharaj Ji a lot, and have now left the cult, that he has had, maybe still has unless he got help, a serious drinking problem. Misler talked about it, someone from the residence in England talked about it, and a personal friend of mine who was his personal lawyer until the late 80s told me about it. I have no reason to doubt her statement, or Misler's statement, and taken together, they would indicate that an alcoholism problem is there. But, as I have said elsewhere in these postings, to me, it is really beside the point in talking about Guru Maharaj Ji and the destructive influence he has had on many peoples' lives. As I said before, the fact that he has a drinking problem is the least of my concerns. The difficulty of having direct proof of a drinking problem is twofold: First, it is the nature of an alcohol addiction that the addict does not believe that he has a problem, just like a cult member does not believe he/she is in a cult. Accordingly, Maharaj Ji would probably deny he had the problem, in fact, I don't ever recall him ever even mentioning that he even drank. At least in the early days, even that would have raised eyebrows among potential followers. Second, and more importantly, Guru Maharaj Ji took great pains to keep himself separated from his devotees and usually was only around them in controlled settings, like festivals where group mentality takes over. He could have chosen to do otherwise, but he didn't. Instead, as you might recall, he spent months at a time flying kites and putting together television sets in Malibu, all the while allowing access to him by a very limited few. The main purpose for this separation, or at least the effect, is to keep the aura of divinity and specialness around him, because almost no one got to know him as a person and therefore they were free to devote themselves to the programmed image instead of the reality of who he is. The other effect of that separation is that any personal foibles he might have, like a drinking problem, are less likely to be known to the majority of his devotees or the public. JW Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Apr 21, 1997 at 16:43:35 (EDT)
Poster: Chris Email: To: JW Subject: Re: Who is Guru Maharaji Message: JW, You say: 'you can categorize my experiences with GMJ as negative'. Who needs to catergorize? In your own words you are the one who cried about missing Grad school and other deprivations, then posted your revenge with the GMJ had zits story. And of course you would love to brand M as an alcoholic to get satisfaction. Jim is the one who has cried about being deprived of sex for many years. He DEMANDS satisfaction. In both cases you two stalwarts of integrity blame M and seek some form or retribution. Post any dirt that you can dig up. Good stuff. What is even more interesting is your true motives. This page is indeed an interesting case study. God cut my Internet connection right as I was posting this but I decided to post it anyway - g. CD Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Apr 21, 1997 at 18:02:38 (EDT)
Poster: JW Email: To: Chris Subject: Re: Who is Guru Maharaji Message: Chris, with all due respect, you know virtually nothing about me and have no way of knowing what my motives are for doing anything I do. That being the case, anything you say about that is pure conjecture, an exercise you are entitled to engage in, but it is nothing more than that. I protested to the Old Premie that she was making a value judgment about my experience with GMJ as "negative" when I don't regard it as that. I would never label her experience, because I am not her, so I don't like her doing it to mine. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Apr 21, 1997 at 19:37:22 (EDT)
Poster: op Email: To: JW Subject: Re: Who is Guru Maharaji Message: I had opportunities to be around GMJ, but I often avoided them because I was so unattracted to him, and basically I found him repulsive in one-on-one situations, that it really depressed me when I had them. Somehow this sounded like negative impressions to me. I have no idea how I could have been so mistaken. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Apr 21, 1997 at 20:41:43 (EDT)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Chris Subject: Re: Who is Guru Maharaji Message: JW, You say: 'you can categorize my experiences with GMJ as negative'. Who needs to catergorize? In your own words you are the one who cried about missing Grad school and other deprivations, then posted your revenge with the GMJ had zits story. And of course you would love to brand M as an alcoholic to get satisfaction. Jim is the one who has cried about being deprived of sex for many years. He DEMANDS satisfaction. In both cases you two stalwarts of integrity blame M and seek some form or retribution. Post any dirt that you can dig up. Good stuff. What is even more interesting is your true motives. This page is indeed an interesting case study. God cut my Internet connection right as I was posting this but I decided to post it anyway - g. CD Now THAT's an ad hominem argument! Thanks Chris. See, Bobby? Do you see the difference? If not, I'll explain. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Apr 21, 1997 at 22:29:39 (EDT)
Poster: Chris Email: To: JW Subject: Re: Who is Guru Maharaji Message: Most of the people on this forum know virtually nothing about each other. I do agree that we should really try to not judge each other too much. Many different viewpoints from a variety of experiences and backgrounds. The world is a big place with lots and lots of stuff. Of course the Universe and Time are even bigger. I also knew a guy that was not too balanced and ended up hurting himself. He actually attacked me first in a restaraunt. I was giving him a place to stay. Funny that he wanted me to come visit him at the mental ward. I did. Difficult problems. The world is full of them. The people posting on this page have a lot of potential. Regards, Chris Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Apr 21, 1997 at 23:16:59 (EDT)
Poster: JW Email: To: op Subject: Re: Who is Guru Maharaji Message: How about this: Seeing what a repulsive slug he was, it helped me get out of his destructive cult sooner. I think that is positive. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Apr 21, 1997 at 23:19:31 (EDT)
Poster: JW Email: To: Chris Subject: Re: Who is Guru Maharaji Message: Again Chris, a lovely sentiment. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Apr 22, 1997 at 14:20:51 (EDT)
Poster: Chris Email: To: JW Subject: Re: Who is Guru Maharaji Message: How about this: Seeing what a repulsive slug he was, it helped me get out of his destructive cult sooner. I think that is positive. Again JW, a lovely sentiment. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Apr 22, 1997 at 14:47:58 (EDT)
Poster: JW Email: To: Chris Subject: Re: Who is Guru Maharaji Message: Glad you liked it. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Apr 12, 1997 at 22:46:02 (EDT)
Poster: London UK Email: To: L Goss Subject: Mr Hellers reply Message: Dear L.Goss, you wrote: Maharaji has asked me to point out the following; 1. He has not written anything on the internet. Anyone pretending to impersonate him should know that we will issue legal procedings should we discover the culprit. Fair enough. I agree.Then he adds.... 2. You should not expect any response to any of your questions unless you treat him with the respect he deserves. Mr Heller is evidently going through a lot of anger and has obviously lost his respect for the time being. Am I to understand that his disrespectful attitude invalidates his questions? I gather that his lack of respect is partly because he feels that the sincere sacrifice he made (8 years in an ashram ) was in vain. Surely he deserves some respect himself for the time he committed to understanding The greatest gift . How much respect is Maharaji due from people that feel that it hasn t necessarily been earned ? Then he continues.... 3. You were given the greatest gift by Maharaji and you chose to turn against it. Your obvious sufferings are proof of the consequences of your own actions. Surely Mr Heller s sufferings are not proof of the consequences of turning against Knowledge . The sufferings and misgivings he says that he endured whilst practising Knowledge apparently caused him to turn against it.. Now he must feeel that he is suffering less by rejecting the process. Mr Heller, you are a thoroughly disreputable person and should be ashamed of yourself. Maharaji has sacrificed his life to bring peace to anyone who asks for it. What have you ever done in your sad, miserable life? Mr Hellers rudeness is met with a similar riposte. Mr Heller, along with others it seems, seeks a way to express his anger and frustration (directed towards Maharaji) in this open forum. Because Maharaji proposes to exclude angry people from any correspondence, Mr Heller speaks angrily here instead, from where he can evidently be loudly heard by all. Mr Heller asked for peace too. He, unlike many others, doesn t feel that Maharaji gave it to him. Mr Heller has, in his sad, miserable life , sacrificed (apparently) eight years of it trying to find the peace, without success. He thinks Maharaji is disreutable for misleading him. That is his standpoint . He is now a lawyer, and he speaks in the tones of one. I think a lot of the disrespectful tone should not be taken so seriously. What exactly is it that he is doing, or saying, that you think is so reprehensible? Does everbody have to swallow their doubts and tacitly agree with Maharaji in order to qualify for his Master-Class? Please explain. London Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Apr 13, 1997 at 16:55:19 (EDT)
Poster: Linda G Email: To: London UK Subject: Re: Mr Hellers reply Message: Mr Hitler (sorry Heller) doesn't need apologists like you defending his actions. He spends all his time criticising Maharaji in a most unpleasant manner. I know Maharaji and he is naturally very upset by the tone and content of Mr Heller's words. Maharaji has a mission to bring peace to the world. Anyone who is not for him must be against him. In time, we shall inherit the earth. Then Mr Heller should hide from the wrath of Maharaji. Yet there will be no hiding place for people like you, Heller. Maharaji is the greatest incarnation of God ever to walk this earth. You should be very careful who you cross. All actions have consequences, Mr Hitler. LG Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Apr 13, 1997 at 17:16:35 (EDT)
Poster: ANON Email: To: Linda G Subject: Re: Mr Hellers reply Message: Mr Hitler (sorry Heller) doesn't need apologists like you defending his actions. He spends all his time criticising Maharaji in a most unpleasant manner. I know Maharaji and he is naturally very upset by the tone and content of Mr Heller's words. Maharaji has a mission to bring peace to the world. Anyone who is not for him must be against him. In time, we shall inherit the earth. Then Mr Heller should hide from the wrath of Maharaji. Yet there will be no hiding place for people like you, Heller. Maharaji is the greatest incarnation of God ever to walk this earth. You should be very careful who you cross. All actions have consequences, Mr Hitler. LG MAHARAJI DOES NOT WANT TO BE ASSOCIATED WITH THIS LINE OF DEFENSE. IF YOU LOVE MAHARAJI YOU WILL CEASE. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Apr 13, 1997 at 17:28:46 (EDT)
Poster: London UK Email: To: Linda G Subject: Re: Mr Hellers reply Message: Linda G Thanks for the swift reply. It seems, according to you, that fear and intimidation have a part in Maharaji's plan to bring peace to the world. Surely not? Also what exactly do you mean by "Anyone who is not for him must be against him" ? Do you think Maharaji would agree with this attitude? It sounds extremely aggressive. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Apr 13, 1997 at 18:37:01 (EDT)
Poster: London UK Email: To: ANON Subject: Re: Mr Hellers reply Message: This last post (from Anon) presumably means that 'Linda G' is not 'Linda G'. It's a bit confusing ! However I hope Maharaji indeed would not want to be associated with the line of defence or 'attack' that 'whoever-it-is' has iterated. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Apr 13, 1997 at 22:31:27 (EDT)
Poster: old premie Email: To: Linda G Subject: Re: Mr Hellers reply Message: Mr Hitler (sorry Heller) doesn't need apologists like you defending his actions. He spends all his time criticising Maharaji in a most unpleasant manner. I know Maharaji and he is naturally very upset by the tone and content of Mr Heller's words.Maharaji has a mission to bring peace to the world. Anyone who is not for him must be against him. In time, we shall inherit the earth. Then Mr Heller should hide from the wrath of Maharaji.Yet there will be no hiding place for people like you, Heller. Maharaji is the greatest incarnation of God ever to walk this earth. You should be very careful who you cross. All actions have consequences, Mr Hitler.LG Linda! I'm ashamed of you! I never knew you could be so callous, so poison-tongued, so mean-hearted. Or is it that this Website is Maharaji's world's counterpart to Bizzaro, and everything is twisted out of its true shape? In that case, Jim is probably an ancient gopi, Mili is Ravana in disguise, and we wouldn't recognize ourselves in this cyberworld jumble. On the other hand, a lot of this might be legal jargon. After all, its tone is oddly like Jim's, also a lawyer. Or could it be Jim talking to Jim? It really would be wonderful if everyone were up front and, if we can't always use our real names, at least not try to take on another's. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Apr 14, 1997 at 15:04:10 (EDT)
Poster: Chris Email: To: old premie Subject: Re: Mr Hellers reply Message: Do you really know who wrote the message you are responding to? This is the Internet. According to this forum Maharaji has a $30 million compound in Nigeria. Probably where the 707 is hidden. CD Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Apr 14, 1997 at 18:50:14 (EDT)
Poster: old premie Email: To: Chris Subject: Re: Mr Hellers reply Message: Do you really know who wrote the message you are responding to?This is the Internet.According to this forum Maharaji has a $30 million compound in Nigeria. Probably where the 707 is hidden.CD That's the point. Maybe I am Fakiranand. Or maybe I'm an FBI agent who spent years investigating Maharaji. Or maybe I'm just a crazed gopi who never quite adapted to the 20th century, despite all this cyberstuff. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Apr 14, 1997 at 23:47:01 (EDT)
Poster: Chris Email: To: London UK Subject: Re: Mr Hellers reply Message: This last post (from Anon) presumably means that 'Linda G' is not 'Linda G'. It's a bit confusing ! However I hope Maharaji indeed would not want to be associated with the line of defence or 'attack' that 'whoever-it-is' has iterated. My opinion is that the Linda G post was a poor hoax intended to stir up hatred. CD Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Apr 14, 1997 at 23:51:47 (EDT)
Poster: Chris Email: To: London UK Subject: Re: Mr Hellers reply Message: Linda G Thanks for the swift reply. It seems, according to you, that fear and intimidation have a part in Maharaji's plan to bring peace to the world. Surely not? Also what exactly do you mean by 'Anyone who is not for him must be against him' ? Do you think Maharaji would agree with this attitude? It sounds extremely aggressive. The post should not be given any credibility. I am sure that its sole purpose was to stir up trouble. Don't feed it. It is surely a misguided hoax. This is the Internet and not a secure page in any way. Some people enjoy the site of a forest fire. Regards, Chris Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Apr 12, 1997 at 22:36:42 (EDT)
Poster: old premie Email: To: Pickles Subject: who is Linda G Message: Linda G = Linda Gross, legal advisor and officially 'President' of Elan Vital. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Apr 14, 1997 at 17:37:30 (EDT)
Poster: Chris Email: To: old premie Subject: Re: who is Linda G Message: On this forum all names are ficticious. CD Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Apr 14, 1997 at 18:55:15 (EDT)
Poster: old premie Email: To: Chris Subject: Re: who is Linda G Message: On this forum all names are ficticious.CD Right. But this was in response to poor Pickles, who seemed rather confused by all Jim's flack about Linda Gross (see archives, last entry chronologically - I think), so I thought I should explain, in case Pickles (not an alias, I'm sure) shows up again. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Apr 14, 1997 at 19:08:43 (EDT)
Poster: Chris Email: To: old premie Subject: Re: who is Linda G Message: On this forum all names are ficticious.CD Right. But this was in response to poor Pickles, who seemed rather confused by all Jim's flack about Linda Gross (see archives, last entry chronologically - I think), so I thought I should explain, in case Pickles (not an alias, I'm sure) shows up again. Jim's last flack on the archived page was to label me as a Nazi sympathizer. Maybe it wasn't Jim. Who knows! See, now I am jumping to conclusions! The fact is that this page can't really be trusted at all. People can read the stuff and get some impressions but should be careful about interpreting the content and making judgements as to who is responsible for the content. Yes. Linda Gross. But who is Linda G.? And which Linda Gross? This whole thing has the potential to be very confusing for anybody, not just 'poor Pickles', as people claim to be who they are not. CD - it might be me! Maybe not! Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Apr 14, 1997 at 20:40:39 (EDT)
Poster: Pickles Email: To: Chris Subject: Re: who is Linda G Message: Even the guy (Anon) who told LGoss to shut it if she loves Maharaji was too scared to tell anyone who he/she is. It's like as if the Thought Police will get you if you blurt out Maharaji's God or the Devil. Thing is.. They probably will try to. I reckon the Premies at Elan Vital or wherever read every word of this and they do'nt think it's atall healthy. It is though. Where's Mili? Has he been told that he's gotta shut up or ship out too? Sad thing is I admit I feel scared to speak my doubts too, but I want to real bad. At least I use my real name. Don't you see Chris they really are all scared , they just call it respect. Heavy. Why is this page so threatening if there's no truth in it? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Apr 15, 1997 at 18:24:35 (EDT)
Poster: David Email: To: Pickles Subject: Re: who is Linda G Message: Hey paranoid pickles, lighten up. There's no doubt that fear is a wonderfully effective tool for controlling people. In any sort of cult/religion, you're playing for high stakes - the eternal soul. People don't go handing over their life savings for a better TV or a car. A cult leader that knows the game can earn serious money. Especially if he's managed to lay down roots in the ol' eternally suceptable US of A. And Maharaji lays a long shadow, even in this neck of the woods. Scott, who has set up this bulletin board, still feels uncomfortable about describing the four techniques on his web site. Why do you think that is? But don't be afraid of the thought police, Pickles, they and their masters will be revealed for what they are in the end. If we don't prod and poke Maharaji and his bovine followers, I'm convined he could persuade a fair number of them to book the eternal sleeper to the Hale Bopp spacecraft. But is that necessarily a bad thing?... Onward and upward David No who's that knocking on my door at this time of night... and waving a white sock... Mili... Mili.... hrgggmmmppphhhhh!!!! (I'm sorry, I just have no self control) Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 16, 1997 at 09:15:35 (EDT)
Poster: Deena Email: To: Pickles Subject: Re: who is Linda G Message: Even the guy (Anon) who told LGoss to shut it if she loves Maharaji was too scared to tell anyone who he/she is. It's like as if the Thought Police will get you if you blurt out Maharaji's God or the Devil. Thing is.. They probably will try to. I reckon the Premies at Elan Vital or wherever read every word of this and they do'nt think it's atall healthy. It is though. Where's Mili? Has he been told that he's gotta shut up or ship out too? Sad thing is I admit I feel scared to speak my doubts too, but I want to real bad. At least I use my real name. Don't you see Chris they really are all scared , they just call it respect. Heavy. Why is this page so threatening if there's no truth in it? Hey...I understand what you're saying but just to clarify I want you to know that I used the alias ANON not because of the thought police, but because I was sick of the threatening tone of those posts and I know it just can't have anything to do with Elan Vital. I say that because it was so very recently that I was involved as contact person, only 2 months ago. I know the way they operate and everything they do reflects on MJ, so they; wouldn't be so lacking in perfect eloquence. The only time I'm concerned is when I think MJ will use what we say when he speaks to mock us and make the premies feel that it is obviious what happens without his grace in your life. I feel better than I've felt in my entire life and I'll continue to advertise that on this forum because I truely have the experience to back what I'm saying and I have no motive.What lies on these pages is the truth and someone very close to MJ knows as he/she is reading this that something needs to be done about it. I'll just sit back and watch it unfold. He is his worst enemy and no one is a bigger threat to him than himself. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Apr 12, 1997 at 21:51:30 (EDT)
Poster: Scott Perry Email: To: Everyone Subject: Starting with a clean slate Message: Dear Fellow Forum Participants, Sorry to have to restart this forum, as you may have noticed, the number of messages was starting to slow down the load time too much. It has totally amazed me how much use this forum has received. Now might be a good time for you to update any bookmarks you might have pointing to this forum. Postings to the old forum can still be read, however, in order to respond to a thread from the old forum, you will have to write down the subject of the thread you are responding to in your response post. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Apr 12, 1997 at 22:47:36 (EDT)
Poster: old premie Email: To: Scott Perry Subject: Re: Starting with a clean slate Message: Scott: I know we may seem to be at odds on the main issue of this page, but as I said before, I appreciate the work you're doing. I think a lot of people will actually get something positive out of this (I'm not so sure about Jim - he seems too cynical and set in his negativity to let himself grow; sorry Jim, if you feel like cursing me out again after reading this, go ahead). AND you seem to really be on top of taking care of the site without being an overbearing voice on it - I don't know how many people appreciate you for that. As for carrying over 100 messages - perhaps that might be too much? How about 50? A lot of the threads can always be picked up again. Archiving is great. It works quite well, and if someone really wants to pick up a thread again, all they have to do is copy/paste the original document into a new message. Happy upcoming tax day, everybody! Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Apr 12, 1997 at 22:51:14 (EDT)
Poster: Scott Perry Email: To: Everyone Subject: Re: Starting with a clean slate Message: PS: I wish there were a more graceful way of doing this, I have been working with the folks over at the forum server about this. I feel that ideally, the last 100 messages should be carried over when an old forum is archived. It would help me a great deal if anyone who agreed with this could possibly email the Bill Dugger, the main programmer for this forum and express his or her feelings about how Bill could improve his service by carrying over the last 100 messages. You can contact Bill by clicking on: [LINK REMOVED]. Help to improve this forum by encouraging Bill Dugger to carry over the last 100 messages. Your help would be much appreciated. Sincerely, Scott Perry Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 18, 1997 at 18:38:33 (EDT)
Poster: Jim Email: To: old premie Subject: Re: Starting with a clean slate Message: Scott: I know we may seem to be at odds on the main issue of this page, but as I said before, I appreciate the work you're doing. I think a lot of people will actually get something positive out of this (I'm not so sure about Jim - he seems too cynical and set in his negativity to let himself grow; sorry Jim, if you feel like cursing me out again after reading this, go ahead). AND you seem to really be on top of taking care of the site without being an overbearing voice on it - I don't know how many people appreciate you for that. As for carrying over 100 messages - perhaps that might be too much? How about 50? A lot of the threads can always be picked up again. Archiving is great. It works quite well, and if someone really wants to pick up a thread again, all they have to do is copy/paste the original document into a new message. Happy upcoming tax day, everybody! OP, It took me a bit of time to come to terms with your criticism. Now, a few days later, I've reflected and realize that you, dear friend, are right. Now, I ask, what can I do? See, I do want to grow! I really, really, REALLY want to grow. Why don't I? What's holding me back? I'll tell you -- one thing and one thing only: negativity. Oh yeah, cynicism is in there too. There's probably a whole mess of stuff keeping me from, how do you say, 'fulfilling my potential', but it's negativity that's really got me. And it's not as if I can take credit for even recognizing it. You did. So, here I am. A liar by trade, a monmot by choice, eaten-away by the rotting cancer of mind (not brain cancer although I can't see how that would be any worse. One hits the spirit the other the body. Surely, you don't place one above the other, do you?). Yes I want attunement. Yes I want to FEEL again, for Christ's sake, but what cna I do? I just can't surrender my mind! OP, is he really waiting for me? Is he there? I'm so weary walking alone. Well, me and Mr. Mind walking our drunken pas-de-deux down the sidewalk of purgatory. And it's not just becuase I'm a Scorpio either. There's just no sincerity. Everyone's walking around with 'bullet guns'. Please, Lord, please..... Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Apr 19, 1997 at 03:32:08 (EDT)
Poster: Deena Email: To: Jim Subject: Re: Starting with a clean slate Message: True to form, my bud Jim...doesn't it just drive you -uckin nuts? All we have to do Jim is see the -uckin light! We're in our -uckin minds afterall so it's obvious all we need is within us....how do we go on without his -uckin love? The song I told you about by Duncan Shiek called Barely Breathing says it all in it's chorus..."Cause I am barely breathing and I can't find the air. Don't know why I kid myself imagining that you care"....He doesn't give a fuck (opps) what he's done to me, or you , or anyone else for that matter.We are to blame. I admit it ( and I am sure you agree ) YES. WE CAN THINK CLEARLY NOW. Tell me everyone ( ex-premies and premies alike ) ...Tell me how a person who is invited to see a video nowadays would feel about knowing that what they are getting involved with fits the description to a -uckin T of what a cult is! This site is living proof of it with every post. I seriously challenge anyone to call info-cult in Montreal and ask for Mike to discuss why Maharaji is on the list of cults . He's been doing it for over 20 years and himself has personal experience in a cult. The number is...oh what is the point. I forgot the first thing he ever told me.Someone in a cult does not believe it is a cult because if it was they would not be in it! Sorry Jim...got carried away again. Glad you're back and at it...I have evolved a plan with my husband....I am ENJOYING to the fullest with him the so called ILLUSION that is not as fullfilling as Maharaji is, and you know what ...some part of him is dancing and rejoicing even though he knows I want nothing to do with MJ. I won't give up the fight...MJ can't have this one. Yes, he may be still active but he'll be sooooo distracted. And hopefully so tired that he'll fall asleep while practising. He's ENJOYING himself and I hope over time he'll realize that it's bullshit that the supreme enjoyment is anything to do with MJ. Life is ENJOYABLE and also painful...that's it. A total package. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Apr 19, 1997 at 11:46:20 (EDT)
Poster: old premie Email: To: Deena Subject: Re: Starting with a clean slate Message: try as I might, I can't open the message that follows this one. Is it my server that's screwing up? Is anyone else having that problem? Deena, could you please re-post whatever that message is so that I can read it? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Apr 19, 1997 at 13:17:22 (EDT)
Poster: Chris Email: To: Deena Subject: Re: Starting with a clean slate Message: 'Tell me everyone ( ex-premies and premies alike ) ...Tell me how a person who is invited to see a video nowadays would feel about knowing that what they are getting involved with fits the description to a -uckin T of what a cult is!' I have showed the messages that you and Jim have posted here to a friend of mine who is interested in Knowledge. I do not see any reason that somebody should not see what you have to say. The response I got was that you two do have some problems to work out. Two angry middle aged people in love with 'F' words. I am suprised that you think that the discoveries that you have made are so fresh. It only took you how many years? 23? Now you have jumped head first into 'rational' theories explaining deep human emotions. Take a few more psych courses. Read Atlas Shrugged. Part of the problem is that you think that you have special 'inside' info. Both you and Jim have been (are being) snobby and it is coming back to get you. It is well documented in your own and Jim's posts. I hope that your husband survives the ordeal and that you two do enjoy yourselves. As I have said before, a similar discussion has taken place at least since I heard about Maharaji back in London in 1972. I have been blunt because I don't like to see people employing FUD against something as positive and valuable as Knowledge. Your recent tone has been that of a FUDmeister with a bullhorn instead of somebody expressing strong personal doubts and opinions. Yes, there is a difference. Why don't you post a detailed history of the different airplanes to keep JW and myself happy. That would be interesting! Did you go to the Orlando 74 event? Regards, CD Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Apr 19, 1997 at 23:44:58 (EDT)
Poster: old premie Email: To: old premie Subject: Re: Starting with a clean slate Message: It was my computer. Deena, ignore previous message - I got to see all your -uckings. No comment. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Apr 20, 1997 at 16:16:16 (EDT)
Poster: Douche Email: To: old premie Subject: Re: Starting with a clean slate Message: It's spelt with an f. As in fucking. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Apr 20, 1997 at 17:49:53 (EDT)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Douche Subject: Re: Starting with a clean slate Message: It's spelt with an f. As in fucking. 'Spelt'? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Apr 20, 1997 at 21:12:13 (EDT)
Poster: JW Email: To: Chris Subject: Re: Starting with a clean slate Message: I may not be skilled at many things, but being a historian, I am good at dates. The Orlando festival was in 1975 and not 1974 and I was there and I saw Guru Maharaj Ji in his Krishna outfit and crown in front of thousands of people when we sang arti to him (creator, preserver, destroyer, bow their heads and pray to you) and I stood in line for hours to kiss his bare feet. I also got to see my brother and his wife at the festival whom I prostelitized and whom had just received knowledge prior to the festival. (Oh, by the way, if you think I have a negative attitude about Guru Maharaj Ji, you should hear my brother and his wife. They use words I do not say, being raised a good catholic boy (but so was he, huh?) But anyway, I wondered if your personal attacks on Jim and Deena is because you have doubts yourself ("me thinks thou dost protest too much)? or if it is (and NOW I get to use that sarcarstic post), coming from all the love and bliss with which the satgugu, Guru Maharaj Ji has filled your heart. JW Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Apr 21, 1997 at 00:06:21 (EDT)
Poster: op Email: To: Jim Subject: Re: Starting with a clean slate Message: Britishism. And Douche - Deena didn't say fucking, she said -ucking. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Apr 21, 1997 at 13:23:51 (EDT)
Poster: Chris Email: To: JW Subject: Re: Starting with a clean slate Message: I may not be skilled at many things, but being a historian, I am good at dates. The Orlando festival was in 1975 and not 1974 and I was there and I saw Guru Maharaj Ji in his Krishna outfit and crown in front of thousands of people when we sang arti to him (creator, preserver, destroyer, bow their heads and pray to you) and I stood in line for hours to kiss his bare feet. I also got to see my brother and his wife at the festival whom I prostelitized and whom had just received knowledge prior to the festival. (Oh, by the way, if you think I have a negative attitude about Guru Maharaj Ji, you should hear my brother and his wife. They use words I do not say, being raised a good catholic boy (but so was he, huh?) But anyway, I wondered if your personal attacks on Jim and Deena is because you have doubts yourself ('me thinks thou dost protest too much)? or if it is (and NOW I get to use that sarcarstic post), coming from all the love and bliss with which the satgugu, Guru Maharaj Ji has filled your heart. JW JW, Thanks for the fix on the Orlando festival date (1975). I really did enjoy that event. Lots of great music. Even Arti. I have many memorable experiences from that trip. I guess you could call a couple of my messages personal attacks on Jim and Deena. My intent is to provide some balance to what I consider very negatiave portrayals of M and Knowledge. And of course my message will be countered by rebuttals. The love and bliss that I have experienced has not caused me to become a mindless fool. I am quite a considerate person and do have respect for other peoples points of view. As far as Jim Heller, I have no intent on standing still and being slapped in the face by that guy. If you read the messages on the previous page (older stuff) I think you will see that overall my posts are pretty reasonable and are not personal attacks. I am expressing my ideas and feelings about the subject. As are you. I would have no problem meeting you, Jim or Deena in person. So JW, what is your career these days? Regards, Chris Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Apr 21, 1997 at 20:44:36 (EDT)
Poster: Jim Email: To: op Subject: Re: Starting with a clean slate Message: 'Britishism'? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Apr 22, 1997 at 00:02:12 (EDT)
Poster: old premie Email: To: Jim Subject: Re: Starting with a clean slate Message: 'Britishism'? Sorry - Briticism. Another of my invented terms. Oxford English Dictionary. Those guys across the sea - they spell things differently: you know - colour, centre, organise, that's how those are spelt. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Apr 22, 1997 at 15:34:54 (EDT)
Poster: Douche Email: To: Jim Subject: Re: Starting with a clean slate Message: That's right, Jim. - spelt. As in SPELT. Don't you have a spelt? I did think of writing splet but I didn't think you'd get the joke! Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Apr 22, 1997 at 16:00:20 (EDT)
Poster: op Email: To: Jim Subject: Re: Starting with a clean slate Message: And sorry, actually the OED now lists : organize, realize - but analyse. Wouldn't want to give you any false information. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Apr 22, 1997 at 21:35:29 (EDT)
Poster: Brian Email: To: Scott Perry Subject: Re: Starting with a clean slate Message: Scott - This Trial version is gonna explode in 22 days... Please tell me that you are going to register it before then. Please? Please?? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 23, 1997 at 15:50:27 (EDT)
Poster: Douche Email: To: Scott Subject: Re: Starting with a clean slate Message: Don't do it Scott. Don't pay the money. Let it explode into a million self-obsessed pieces. Douche Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 23, 1997 at 15:54:04 (EDT)
Poster: Douche Email: To: Douche Subject: Re: Starting with a clean slate Message: Hey, it's kinda nice down here, right at the bottom of the heap! Please excuse me while I have a little para test... Is this how it works or is it like this. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 23, 1997 at 18:20:52 (EDT)
Poster: Anon Email: To: Douche Subject: Re: Starting with a clean slate Message: Outta my way you smelly old douchebag you, I'm at the bottom now! SCOTT!! HELP NEW PAGE!! Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 24, 1997 at 14:56:33 (EDT)
Poster: Douche Email: To: Anon Subject: Re: Starting with a clean slate Message: Outta my way, Anon. This is my little spot. Get thee above me. Come on Scott. We need a new page. This is getting ridiculous. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 25, 1997 at 16:03:47 (EDT)
Poster: Douche Email: To: Douche Subject: Re: Starting with a clean slate Message: Testing 1, 2, 3...Have the paragraphs come back or is my fevered brain. yes no? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 25, 1997 at 16:27:27 (EDT)
Poster: Douche Email: To: Douche Subject: Re: Starting with a clean slate Message: Yes, the paragraph has returned!!!! Hmmmm... I could have some fun down here, whilst all those ever-so-serious apologists and antognists do battle on high, this could be a little-known place of sanctuary for those who really can't believe what they're reading. Some place where we can vent our spleen and let it all hang out. (Not a pretty picture.) Is there anyone else out there, or am I alone in absolute darkness? Just a few infitesemally small digital dots lost and unloved in the vastness of eternal infinity. What I can't understand is why no-one seems interested in the
basic proof of Maharaji's failure - that the techniques don't
deliver... But perhaps I'm getting too serious. Maybe I should
head for the soapbox on the hill... Onwards and upwards.
|
Date: Fri, Apr 25, 1997 at 23:31:55 (EDT)
Poster: old premie Email: To: Douche Subject: Re: Starting with a clean slate Message: So long as you were spending a few quiet moments down here, I really didn't want to interfere. Especially since it is not my style to usurp other people's territory.
However, I climbed all the way down here before reading the
other
postings tonight to tell you that you can't hide - we know
you're here, and we'll get you to come up and play sometime...
|
Date: Sat, Apr 26, 1997 at 09:54:04 (EDT)
Poster: Douche Email: To: old premie Subject: Re: Starting with a clean slate Message: Feel free to usurp to your heart's content, odl. Glad to have you around. I thought I was all alone in the dark down here. Tell me, is 'Realization' still a spiritual goal for premies? I'm only curious. Douche Back To Index -:- Top of Index |