Ex-Premie.Org |
Forum I Archive # 1 | |
From: Apr 12, 1997 |
To: May 2, 1997 |
Page: 2 Of: 5 |
Date: Wed, Apr 23, 1997 at 17:32:55 (EDT)
Poster: JW Email: To: Everyone Subject: Cult Transformation Message: I just communicated with someone who was never a premie, but who knew people who were through the years. From his perspective: Prior to 1983, with a possible let up in 1976, premies were in a true, full-blown cult with Maharaj Ji the devotional center. After 1983, there was a "loosening/de-ashramification/de-Hinduification of Maharaj Ji's schtick" that this person believes was unique. To his knowledge, Maharaj Ji was one of the few cult leaders who willingly loosened the reins on his followers in this way. He believes that GMJ, or someone on his behalf, transformed a true cult into a more reasonable, sustainable, meditation-based religion. I cut out in 1983. Any thoughts on this theory? Is it now a meditation-based religion, or is it still just a cleverly disguised cult? And was GMJ behind the change, or was it Michael Dettmers or somebody like that? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 23, 1997 at 18:16:57 (EDT)
Poster: Mili Email: To: JW Subject: Re: Cult Transformation Message: I just communicated with someone who was never a premie, but who knew people who were through the years. From his perspective: Prior to 1983, with a possible let up in 1976, premies were in a true, full-blown cult with Maharaj Ji the devotional center. After 1983, there was a 'loosening/de-ashramification/de-Hinduification of Maharaj Ji's schtick' that this person believes was unique. To his knowledge, Maharaj Ji was one of the few cult leaders who willingly loosened the reins on his followers in this way. He believes that GMJ, or someone on his behalf, transformed a true cult into a more reasonable, sustainable, meditation-based religion. I cut out in 1983. Any thoughts on this theory? Is it now a meditation-based religion, or is it still just a cleverly disguised cult? And was GMJ behind the change, or was it Michael Dettmers or somebody like that? Jesus Christ, man, this is what I have been telling everybody for half a year on the Internet. It ain't no cult! If you want to call it a meditation-based religion, that's fine with me, but don't call me a cult member because I know that I am not that. I really feel it to be unjust! I can even give you the name of this meditation based religion, as I perceive it - it's called modern Vedanta, or it might even be modern Radhaosoami, or Sikhism, or Buddhism, whatever. This so-called religion insists on realisation, perception of God, or Inner light, or whatever, by means of techniques of meditation. You receive the techniques and meditate as much as you want to and you never, ever have to REPORT to anyone about it (unlike TM for example). Really, man, I never even felt it to be anything close to a cult. It was always out in the open, you could come and go from the satsangs and the festivals, and no one ever even as much as rang me on the phone to ask why I didn't show up somewhere. God, how can I explain it to you - I am really not making this up to cover something up! I am really allergic to these things, and would have been the first one to react if something like that started happening. I tell you, I've been gone from the whole shebang for 15 years, and I don't feel neither rejected nor outcast. It's like I walked out of a satsang hall 15 years ago, and if I want to I can walk right back in now, and walk out for another 15 years - no one cares, no one even noticed. And I love that, because it gives me a feeling of privacy and freedom. Premies should respect your personal freedom and dignity, and Maharaji does respects your personal freedom and dignity - he's just there to help, if you want him to help. That's how I see it, and all the premies that I know of see it the same way.
This thing did not just pop out of the blue - these are
definitely the same techniques that Guru Nanak taught.
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Date: Wed, Apr 23, 1997 at 18:44:45 (EDT)
Poster: Bobby Email: To: JW Subject: Re: Cult Transformation Message: I'm pretty much a Buddhist. I resonate strongly to Buddhist reality structures. Buddhism is pretty good at defining 'the way that it is' for me. In Buddhist logic, this is what I believe:
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Date: Wed, Apr 23, 1997 at 18:55:18 (EDT)
Poster: Anon Email: To: Bobby Subject: Re: Cult Transformation Message: I'm pretty much a Buddhist. I resonate strongly to Buddhist reality structures. Buddhism is pretty good at defining 'the way that it is' for me. In Buddhist logic, this is what I believe:
I know it's your birthday, but go easy on the Scotch OK.
No on second thoughts let it all hang out and enjoy yourself!
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Date: Wed, Apr 23, 1997 at 19:44:50 (EDT)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Bobby Subject: Re: Cult Transformation Message: Bobby, What's 'Buddhist logic'? I've never heard of it. And what relation does it have to 'logic'? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 24, 1997 at 01:39:08 (EDT)
Poster: old premie Email: To: Bobby Subject: Re: Cult Transformation Message: In Buddhist logic, this is what I believe: Maharaji is a fraud. Maharaji is not a fraud. Maharaji is both a fraud and not a fraud. Watch out Chris! Your humorous posts are getting serious competition here.
On another level, this actually makes sense to me. Remember the
mirror? I'm sure Buddha was very well acquainted with it.
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Date: Thurs, Apr 24, 1997 at 01:41:14 (EDT)
Poster: op Email: To: scott Subject: Re: Cult Transformation Message: Help! again! I tried italicizing by using the < i > technique around only the text I wanted in itals, and the whole thing turned up slanted. Why? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 24, 1997 at 04:39:16 (EDT)
Poster: Mili Email: To: op Subject: Re: Cult Transformation Message: Help! again! I tried italicizing by using the < i > technique around only the text I wanted in itals, and the whole thing turned up slanted. Why? You have to end the italicized part with < /I > (without the spaces in the brackets). Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 24, 1997 at 14:32:44 (EDT)
Poster: Bobby Email: To: Jim Subject: Re: Cult Transformation Message: The buddhist view is that all of it is real and all of it is empty in a sense, dreams are as ontologically valid as what we perceive with the senses this ties in with diverse post-quantum physics theories such as the 'many worlds interpretation'. Perhaps someone here can explain some of this better than I.
I've read quite a bit, but at this stage I forget some of the
formalisms. Just knowing some of the aspects of how the
universe shows up like:
Jim, for more on this, I recommend the excellent The New Inquisition - Irrantional Rationality and the Citadel of Science by Robert Anton Wilson. There's much more I can recommend if you are interested.
Read the book, then get back to me re: the gross inadequacies of
rationalism to explain Universe.
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Date: Thurs, Apr 24, 1997 at 14:38:14 (EDT)
Poster: Bobby Email: To: Jim Subject: Re: Cult Transformation Message: By the way, another interesting book by Wilson is titled:
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Date: Thurs, Apr 24, 1997 at 15:31:09 (EDT)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Bobby Subject: Re: Cult Transformation Message: I like Robert Anton Wilson and always find him interesting. I also find him a little slick and a bit of a poetic wordsmith. Don't get me wrong, there's lots of room for that stuff. Why just this morning I crafted my own little definition of 'guru' -- one who takes your money if you let him -- which somone is sure to get all excited about. The problem is some of us keep getting our 'play' and 'serious' modes mixed up. Sometimes, Wilson plays and poor fools like readers take him seriously. What better example need there be than the Illuminatus Trilogy? You said there was such a thing as 'buddhist logic.' Do you still? If so would you please define it. Make it a serious one, if you don't mind. As for Wilson's thesis, could you summarize it? As for dreams being 'ontologically valid' my, my, how the newage encourages the use of big words. Kind of like little kid dress-up, in a way. Must be a hoot playing with all that quantum physics stuff. Boy oh boy. How sophisticated. How sophistic. (See, we all like them big words). Bobby, look at the machinations you're going through rather than dealing with things on a more common sense level. Remember Occam's Razor? The cleanest, most universally applicable explanation is best. The one that doesn't need a whole lot of spit and fancy footwork to keep it together is USUALLY right. What about all that? See, if you accept that principle then what you're
probably dealing with here is just some Indian tradition spilling over
into the west. Just a religious superstitioun, nothing to get
all alarmed about. Certainly nothing to give up your natural,
evolved rational mind for.
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Date: Thurs, Apr 24, 1997 at 15:36:09 (EDT)
Poster: Bobby Email: To: Jim Subject: Re: Cult Transformation Message: Your Occam's Razor doesn't cut my NDE Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 24, 1997 at 15:39:42 (EDT)
Poster: Bobby Email: To: Jim Subject: Re: Cult Transformation Message: As for Wilson's thesis, could you summarize it? Nope, don't have the time. Wilson only has part of the puzzle. IMO he doesn't understand Love and neither do you. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 24, 1997 at 16:11:29 (EDT)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Bobby Subject: Re: Cult Transformation Message: No, you're wrong there. You still want to consider the simnplest, best explanation you can find, first and foremost. Maybe there isn't one. Maybe there are a few. But you still have to go down the hierarchy of likely explanations, from most likely to least, if you accept the principle. In other words, you don't immediately jump to divine, magical explanations before you've exhausted all the more prosaic, psychological ones. Fun? I guess not as much as pretending you're in a Marvel
Comic but still that's how it goes.
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Date: Thurs, Apr 24, 1997 at 16:18:22 (EDT)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Bobby Subject: Re: Cult Transformation Message: No Bobby, you've got me there. I don't understand love anywhere near as well as you do. But I think that point's kind of obvious and a little unfair for you to bring up. What? Are you trying to destroy me or something?
Then they said to the profit 'Bobby, speak to us of love.'
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Date: Thurs, Apr 24, 1997 at 16:52:14 (EDT)
Poster: Bobby Email: To: Jim Subject: Re: Cult Transformation Message: Sorry. You just don't get it. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 24, 1997 at 16:55:01 (EDT)
Poster: Bobby Email: To: Jim Subject: Re: Cult Transformation Message: Om Ah Hum Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 23, 1997 at 15:15:25 (EDT)
Poster: Scott Email: To: Everyone Subject: The true 'Holy Family'. Message: Dear Fellow participants in this forum, - I have received email proposals from some other former premies suggesting that I open up a new discussion forum designed especially for those former premies who believe that there was in fact some good, mixed in with all of the many shortcomings that came from our associations with Maharaji, and who would like to focus their discussion on whatever 'good' that they believe may have come from their premie years. - I believe that this request is being made based on the perception that the 'Anything Forum' already seems to be addressing many of the more 'negative' aspects of our involvements with Maharaji, but it seems to have a tendency to stifle discussions of the more positive aspects of our involvements with M. - Such a forum would amount to a sort of attempt to have Sat Sang less Maharaji or any other external guru. - Following this line of thought, the only two rules of such a forum which I can think of would be something like:
1. Former premies only please. - If anyone here has any further thoughts about this suggestion, please comment. Your input would be most welcome here.
Sincerely, |
Date: Wed, Apr 23, 1997 at 15:23:03 (EDT)
Poster: Bobby Email: To: Scott Subject: Re: The true 'Holy Family'. Message: I'm interested. spirituality is unprovable but nonetheless real. those who are sincere get the teachings no matter what the
package.
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Date: Wed, Apr 23, 1997 at 15:35:57 (EDT)
Poster: Douche Email: To: Scott Subject: Re: The true 'Holy Family'. Message: An excellent idea, Scott. Go do it! Onwards and... Douche Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 23, 1997 at 15:52:26 (EDT)
Poster: JW Email: To: Scott Subject: Re: The true 'Holy Family'. Message: Sounds fine to me. I don't know of any ex-premie who doesn't think there "was some good mixed in with all the many shortcomings" from being a premie. Might be kind of hard to limit to "positive" things only though, as that is pretty subjective (what is positive for one person is negative for another) and for many people hard to separate from the less-than-positive aspects. But it might be worth a try. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 23, 1997 at 16:17:16 (EDT)
Poster: Mili Email: To: Scott Subject: Re: The true 'Holy Family'. Message: Dear Fellow participants in this forum, - I have received email proposals from some other former premies suggesting that I open up a new discussion forum designed especially for those former premies who believe that there was in fact some good, mixed in with all of the many shortcomings that came from our associations with Maharaji, and who would like to focus their discussion on whatever 'good' that they believe may have come from their premie years. - I believe that this request is being made based on the perception that the 'Anything Forum' already seems to be addressing many of the more 'negative' aspects of our involvements with Maharaji, but it seems to have a tendency to stifle discussions of the more positive aspects of our involvements with M. - Such a forum would amount to a sort of attempt to have Sat Sang less Maharaji or any other external guru. - Following this line of thought, the only two rules of such a forum which I can think of would be something like:
1. Former premies only please. - If anyone here has any further thoughts about this suggestion, please comment. Your input would be most welcome here. Sincerely,
The world is not just black and white, Scott, and it's been too bureaucratically divided already. Why introduce more divisions into it?
- Mili
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Date: Wed, Apr 23, 1997 at 17:09:26 (EDT)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Scott Subject: Re: The true 'Holy Family'. Message: So let me get this straight -- this would be the happy ostrich forum? The one where no body cares where our Lord of the Universe trip came from and where it went? The forum where people talk about how nice it is to feel nice but not to think too much about things? What will people say there? 'Hi, I feel nice listening to the sound of my breath.' 'Oh really, I feel nice too!' Of course if anyone starts wondering where anything came from and how we got to where we are today -- well, that would be what? Verboten? 'Off you go! You're thinking too much.' Sounds pretty lame to me Scott. Not to mention
restrictive.
This here forum is a perfectly valid palce for people to say
they still like meditating. Look, if it stands up, it stands up.
Who are these hothouse flowers, anyway?
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Date: Wed, Apr 23, 1997 at 19:24:04 (EDT)
Poster: Scott Email: To: Jim & Mili Subject: Re: The true 'Holy Family'. Message: Dear Jim, - The Happy Ostrich Forum, perhaps so. Actually I've gotten email from some rather befuddled non-premies (folks who havn't the slightest idea what a guru is all about) who seemed to believe that the 'Anything Forum' was something like that. - In reality, the 'Anything Forum' is already restricted to matters concerning Maharaji. If someone started to try and sell us Amway products over here, he'd get the ole 'boot'. - If either you or Mili would like to set up or moderate other special interest forums such as a 'Former Premie Realist's Forum', or a 'Current Premie Discussion Forum' (which might possibly generate more interest than Harlan's page since Harlan's page isn't threaded, or I would be willing to assist Harlan to set his page up for threading). I would certainly be willing to do anyting I could to assist you, including providing the web-server space. - It seems to me that there is enough interest in this idea to seriously consider it. For those of you who have expressed interest in it, do you have any feelings one way or another about the two rules I proposed? Any other suggestions for either removing any rules or adding additional ones?
Sincerely, |
Date: Wed, Apr 23, 1997 at 19:54:29 (EDT)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Scott Subject: Re: The true 'Holy Family'. Message: Really, I'd be so disappointed to see you accede to this strange request. What you're talking about Scott is just another form of avoidance. Thus the 'rules' you propose. But, whatever. It's your page. But tell me, what do you think this page will acoomplish that the current forum doesn't? Say someone now started a thread about how they like the meditation but have no interest in Maharaji, do you think that thread won't live long and prosper? What will happen? Will some big Maharaji hater jump in and say 'but that's not the point, the question is do you hate Maharaji?'? I can't really see that. What I CAN see -- and yes there's a big difference -- is Maharaji haters watching very closely for people prone to give Maharaji undeserved credit for anything, starting from their very existence and working up. So? What's wrong with that? So, say you started the Happy Ostrich Forum, who's going to police it? Will you actually stand guard the way Harlan does and not allow unnice posts. Notice how the one of mine he wouldn't post was merely teasingly sarcastic. How protective. How pathetic, if you ask me. Scott, haven't we had enough censorship and division
regarding this whole thing to last a lifetime?
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Date: Wed, Apr 23, 1997 at 20:43:36 (EDT)
Poster: Scott Email: To: Jim Subject: Re: The true 'Holy Family'. Message: Really, I'd be so disappointed to see you accede to this strange request. What you're talking about Scott is just another form of avoidance. Thus the 'rules' you propose. But, whatever. It's your page. But tell me, what do you think this page will acoomplish that the current forum doesn't? Say someone now started a thread about how they like the meditation but have no interest in Maharaji, do you think that thread won't live long and prosper? What will happen? Will some big Maharaji hater jump in and say 'but that's not the point, the question is do you hate Maharaji?'? I can't really see that. What I CAN see -- and yes there's a big difference -- is Maharaji haters watching very closely for people prone to give Maharaji undeserved credit for anything, starting from their very existence and working up. So? What's wrong with that? So, say you started the Happy Ostrich Forum, who's going to police it? Will you actually stand guard the way Harlan does and not allow unnice posts. Notice how the one of mine he wouldn't post was merely teasingly sarcastic. How protective. How pathetic, if you ask me. Scott, haven't we had enough censorship and division
regarding this whole thing to last a lifetime?
Dear Jim, Scott
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Date: Thurs, Apr 24, 1997 at 01:25:00 (EDT)
Poster: Matt C. Email: To: Scott Subject: Re: The true 'Holy Family'. Message: Sure Scott start another forum. But I have to say that I really like the diversity found in this one. There are touching personal accounts and face slapping sobriety. I like to think that reading multiple viewpoints legitimizes this page. I love the way Jim & Op go at it. It makes me think. If anyone drops by and sees that the discussion is open enough they might be tempted to consider themselves informed. And isn'that a goal of this forum. To inform people of the true state of being under the influence of GMJ. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 25, 1997 at 08:06:21 (EDT)
Poster: Scott Email: To: Matt C. Subject: Re: The true 'Holy Family'. Message: I hear some very supportive voices and some others not so supportive. Is there anyone else who would like to answer any of the 'not so supportive voices'? Also, I am still awaiting further comment about the two guidelines from people who feel supportive of this idea. I feel I'll need further input in order to get a greater sense of consensus before going ahead with this. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 25, 1997 at 21:46:29 (EDT)
Poster: Brian Email: To: Scott Subject: Re: The true 'Holy Family'. Message: This is a strange idea. I've seen lots of posts here that are expressions of people's positive experiences with MJ/DLM/Knowledge. This idea sounds like a request to be able to post with nobody being allowed to disagree with the poster's viewpoint. You could give me a forum too, with only those in complete agreement (no ex-Brians) being allowed to respond if ya want... I'd like to eliminate negativity from my life entirely :) Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 25, 1997 at 21:51:57 (EDT)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Brian Subject: Re: The true 'Holy Family'. Message: This Brian guy's a real asshole! I want my own page too! Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 25, 1997 at 21:55:04 (EDT)
Poster: Brian Email: To: Scott Subject: Re: The true 'Holy Family'. Message: This is a strange idea. I've seen lots of posts here that are expressions of people's positive experiences with MJ/DLM/Knowledge. This idea sounds like a request to be able to post with nobody being allowed to disagree with the poster's viewpoint. You could give me a forum too, with only those in complete agreement (no ex-Brians) being allowed to respond if ya want... I'd like to eliminate negativity from my life entirely :) I wanna call it "...And It Is Brian", or maybe "Divine Lite".
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Date: Fri, Apr 25, 1997 at 21:57:36 (EDT)
Poster: Brian Email: To: Jim Subject: Re: The true 'Holy Family'. Message: This Brian guy's a real asshole! I want my own page too! See, Scott? See what I gotta put up with? [laugh]
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Date: Fri, Apr 25, 1997 at 22:00:41 (EDT)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Brian Subject: Re: The true 'Holy Family'. Message: How bout 'Brian's okay, Mind isn't' Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 25, 1997 at 22:03:26 (EDT)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Jim Subject: Re: The true 'Holy Family'. Message: [hard to correct these things in mid-flight isn't it?] I meant 'THE Brian's okay, the mind isn't' -- there's a difference. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 23, 1997 at 10:26:50 (EDT)
Poster: Scott Email: To: Deena, Bill, or OP Subject: Holy Family Update? Message: Dear Deena, Bill, or OP, - Now that we're talking about old names and faces, I don't know if I might have missed some of this earlier on, but I was wondering if you folks might be able to fill me in on Maharaji's kids, also Raja Ji, Claudia, Raja Ji's kid(s?), and Mata Ji's death. - Please correct me if I'm wrong about any of this...
- As I understand it: - Some of you other former premies might ask, why is this guy obsessing with Maharaji's family? Well, remember folks, these 'holies' were a sort of surrogate family for us for years. I don't think there's anything wrong with enquiring about them. Don't worry, I'm fully aware that I was never anything more than one of the faceless multitudes to them, but hey, they were my 'reality' (or fantasy) for whatever that's worth, for an important part of my life. - Sincerely,
- Scott
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Date: Wed, Apr 23, 1997 at 11:03:29 (EDT)
Poster: Bobby Email: To: Scott Subject: Re: Holy Family Update? Message: To me, all in the course of a dysfunctional family. Any of us here that comes from a 'normal, healthy' family? Any of us here think that 20th century western
judeo/christian
culture -- by far the prevailing modality -- is 'normal and healthy'?
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Date: Wed, Apr 23, 1997 at 12:04:17 (EDT)
Poster: Anon Email: To: Bobby Subject: Re: Holy Family Update? Message: Yes. I consider that I had a reasonably well-balanced upbringing all things considered. This is one of my gripes with MJ's setup in the 70's. I wasn't particularily screwed up at that time and I was not seeking or needing an alternate family or closed society for comfort. The only reason I put up with all the nonsense was because I felt that the teaching essentiallywas sincere and made sense. Now I don't think so. The end doesn't justify the means , so to speak. I was pressured to 'sever attachment' with my family for one example. It was hard to accept the 'alternate family' vibe that prevailed for a long time. I got suckered into believing it anyhow, despite the very real concerns of my parents.
What I am saying is that MJ as surrogate father, (and his
family)
was no way as real or 'healthy' or 'normal' an influence as my
natural family who cared for me me as nature intended.
Regarding Scott's request for an update on MJ's family. Well
they
are no longer presented as 'Holier than thou or I' but they
reap
all the benefits and pitfalls of being associated with MJ.
That's another story.
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Date: Wed, Apr 23, 1997 at 13:30:08 (EDT)
Poster: op Email: To: Scott Subject: Re: Holy Family Update? Message: Prem Lata - 1st born, now 22. She is not the singer Hansi - true, not seen very often, but then neither is the rest of the family, except Daya (see next entry) Daya Lata - Maharaji's second daughter. She's the one who sings at programs and on video. She was professionally trained and does some very good jazz as well as premie oldies. Amar - Maharaji's youngest. Nav Lata - Rajaji's first daughter. The last I heard she was in college in the northeast. Marilyn had a burst aneurism in 1995 and very nearly died. She has recovered quite well. Rajaji helps in setting up events and at times does some intro programs himself. He lives in Miami. These are all well-known facts - no hidden information. But Maharaji did remove the whole concept of 'alternate family' - I think (but, of course) for the better. We each have our own families, Anon, and that IS as it should be. I know that Maharaji's stepmother (known as Bari Mataji) died a few years ago, and he went to India for her final days and her funeral.
I have also heart that Mataji died, of complications of
diabetes, but have been shy to ask about details - so I have none.
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Date: Wed, Apr 23, 1997 at 16:47:42 (EDT)
Poster: Chris Email: To: op Subject: Re: Holy Family Update? Message: I remember Maharaji talking about the death of Mataji at a program in San Fransisco. I think 5 years ago. He was talking about how she had been at a party the night before here death (I vaguely recall) and enjoyed her life to the very end. At the Rome (1990) event I saw Marilyn and the 2 daughters perform a song together. They brought the house down - g. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 23, 1997 at 16:55:05 (EDT)
Poster: Chris Email: To: Bobby Subject: Re: Holy Family Update? Message: Bobby, you have a good point about 'normal'. Sitcom life maybe? The Israelis and Palestinians are still debating who is 'normal'. I remember seeing ex-president Carter once saying that there were currently about 70 armed conflicts raging in the world. I do believe that the ONLY thing that we really have in common is the deep inner experience of our conciousness. The thing that is not a topic of debate. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 23, 1997 at 17:00:28 (EDT)
Poster: Bobby Email: To: Chris Subject: Re: Holy Family Update? Message: Seems there are now more than 70 conflicts now. we must be improving. I always liked that guy in *Repo Man*...wassis name? Harry Dean Stanton! 'lookit those normal people over there. assholes!' Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 23, 1997 at 17:13:44 (EDT)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Chris Subject: Re: Holy Family Update? Message: Did Maharaji happen to mention how she was the first to denounce him as a fraud? How she wnent to court with her eldest sone Bal Bhagwan Ji to fight Maharaji for the money that WE had given him? - g Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 23, 1997 at 17:30:14 (EDT)
Poster: Chris Email: To: Jim Subject: Re: Holy Family Update? Message: Did Maharaji happen to mention how she was the first to denounce him as a fraud? How she wnent to court with her eldest sone Bal Bhagwan Ji to fight Maharaji for the money that WE had given him? - g I also have had disagreements with my mother. I don't have inside inforamtion but got the impression that they were on good terms in the end. Maharaji spoke highly of his mother when he announced her death at the San Fransisco program. I don't think it was a coverup. Of course you can imagine what you wish. Maharaji has put the money to good use with his world-wide tours. The premies in the Ivory Coast area certainly seem to appreciate his visits judging by their enthusiastic reception of him at local events. I enjoy donating money to support Elan Vital and the events. Maharji has truely used his resources to bring the teaching of Knowledge to the entire world. CD Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 23, 1997 at 17:38:40 (EDT)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Chris Subject: Re: Holy Family Update? Message: Chris, ask your psychiatrist why you're not able to percieve substance in what people say to you? I'm starting to think there's a place for you in the sequel to 'The Man who Mistook His Wife for a Hat.' Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 23, 1997 at 18:32:20 (EDT)
Poster: Chris Email: To: Jim Subject: Re: Holy Family Update? Message: Chris, ask your psychiatrist why you're not able to percieve substance in what people say to you? I'm starting to think there's a place for you in the sequel to 'The Man who Mistook His Wife for a Hat.' I have never been to a psychiatrist. Don't have one or need one. CD Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 23, 1997 at 19:55:33 (EDT)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Chris Subject: Re: Holy Family Update? Message: Yeah? Well how come whenever I mention your mental health the little 'g' disappears? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 23, 1997 at 22:05:46 (EDT)
Poster: old premie Email: To: Jim / Chris Subject: Re: Holy Family Update? Message: Yeah? Well how come whenever I mention your mental health the little 'g' disappears? Chris: if I were you I'd answer this one with : -g-g-g-g-g-g-g-g-g-g-g-g-g-g-g-g-g-g-g-g-g-g-g-g-g-g-.
But I'm not you, so I won't say anything
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Date: Wed, Apr 23, 1997 at 22:26:02 (EDT)
Poster: old premie Email: To: for the record Subject: Re: Holy Family Update? Message: About Mataji and Bal Bhagwan - did you know that they tried to sue M because they were getting cut out of what they presumed would be the great profits of this cult THEY were trying to manifest? I'm pretty sure that Maharaji was speaking about Bari Mataji (Shri Hans's first wife) when he spoke of his 'mother' and her death - as far as I know, he and Mataji never reconciled. As for 'pressured to leave your family' Anon - this is what really does set me off. Pressured by WHOM? Here's some real life experience: My mother had cancer when I received Knowledge. She'd had it for a while. I went traipsing around the world following Maharaji, with her blessing - she was in relatively decent shape then. After Montrose, Maharaji told me to STAY with my mother. Take care of her. He answered my insane phone call to him after a nightmare at 3am, personally. He never told me to abandon her or my family. I remained officially an ashram premie during that time, called upon for service whenever needed. My mother received Knowledge on what we thought was her deathbed. An instructor came to her side - one on one. She lived for quite a while after that, in what appeared to be a remission. Mataji several times had told me to go to various places out of the country. I had complied because I thought there was no difference between her will and Maharaji's. During my mother's last year on earth, she was taken care of by premies - she had a premie in-home care worker, the local premie service crew painted her apartment and made it more livable than it had ever been before. I was sent out of the country again, but I didn't feel like I was abandoning her - she had a whole new family taking care of her. While I was away, the cancer struck again. She was hospitalized, and my cousins begged me to come home. Mataji sent me teletype messages telling me to stay put. I never bothered to check with Maharaji - and my mother died in my absence.
I know that Jim has a lot of issues about what happened AFTER
the family splitup. I told you before, I can't answer those.
But I never experienced anything but total understanding from
Maharaji - to this day.
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Date: Wed, Apr 23, 1997 at 22:34:54 (EDT)
Poster: Jim Email: To: old premie Subject: Re: Holy Family Update? Message: Come on, OP, you can do better than that! Just because you can point to a single counter example -- Maharaji telling you to stay with your sick mum -- doesn't mean he didn't pressure people otherwise. You know that! Did you really make it this far in life arguing like that?
ggggggggggg
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Date: Thurs, Apr 24, 1997 at 01:42:18 (EDT)
Poster: Bill Email: To: Scott Subject: Re: Holy Family Update? Message: When mata died all the brothers were together. They were cordial. Bhole Ji was emotional and Raja less so. On the flight back mj asked raja if he was going to say thanks when he died and raja gave some blistering response. That response shook up mj started his midlife crises. It was a whopper. for all his changing I can see he still has to realize that pride has no redeeming value. And anger and domination are still on the -to do- list. He is an interesting guy in a couple ways. But he really has thrown me for a loop. I can see that god has protected me along the way but I just am flabberghasted by presence of poison. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 24, 1997 at 02:03:38 (EDT)
Poster: old premie Email: To: Bill Subject: Re: Holy Family Update? Message: Where did you find out about this? were you there? I've been wondering about this for a long time (back burner, but wondering nonetheless). If you know more, would you mind sharing it? Can I ask you one more question? Why Bhole JI but no Ji for the rest, including Mataji?
And yet another - where was Bal Bhagwan through all this?
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Date: Thurs, Apr 24, 1997 at 04:45:05 (EDT)
Poster: Mili Email: To: Bill Subject: Re: Holy Family Update? Message: When mata died all the brothers were together. They were cordial. Bhole Ji was emotional and Raja less so. On the flight back mj asked raja if he was going to say thanks when he died and raja gave some blistering response. That response shook up mj started his midlife crises. It was a whopper. for all his changing I can see he still has to realize that pride has no redeeming value. And anger and domination are still on the -to do- list. He is an interesting guy in a couple ways. But he really has thrown me for a loop. I can see that god has protected me along the way but I just am flabberghasted by presence of poison. WHAT are you guys talking about ??? You are completely baffling me. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 24, 1997 at 06:11:58 (EDT)
Poster: Anon Email: To: old premie Subject: Re: Holy Family Update? Message: As for 'pressured to leave your family' Anon - this is what really does set me off. Pressured by WHOM?
David Smith for one! He had MJ's blessings didn't he??I don't
think that you can ever have been to any of MJ's latter day
ashram premie satsangs... at least not the one's I went to.
You might not get so 'set off' about my complaint if you had
.Did you read my 'inward journeys' post yet?
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Date: Thurs, Apr 24, 1997 at 11:21:55 (EDT)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Bill Subject: Re: Holy Family Update? Message: Bill, did you travel on Air Farce One? How do you know all this? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 24, 1997 at 12:37:45 (EDT)
Poster: JW Email: To: Bill Subject: Re: Holy Family Update? Message: I agree. Guru Maharaj Ji, having an ego the size of North Dakota, may never be able to admit any sort of error he has made or damage he has caused. He would rather try to re-write and supress those things instead. Who knows? He may have even convinced himself on occasion that he really is/was right. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 24, 1997 at 16:23:18 (EDT)
Poster: bill Email: To: old premie Subject: Re: Holy Family Update? Message: I used the ji after bhole because he was a musical guy who could have been fun to have around all these years if the clan had had more of a focus on humility and the knowledge. I dont think of him as in the same catagory as the rest. I didnt make anything up. I didnt leave years ago and Im still up to date. Maharaji just had a festival in India and has had no other programs as he decided he was only going to go where there was inspiration. Meaning an active aspirant program. since dec.events Im sure he has kept himself busy with little projects but hopefully he is taking this time to follow up on his advice of the dec. program. which was to feel his breathing with appreciation otherwise he gets stupid. see the videos for yourself. thats what he said. There is definately a working grapevine and its pretty accurate because its people who care about him and are focused on him that people the grapevine. Im sure Deena has heard plenty. Also, you would be surprised what m. reveals during his speaking. He is letting it all out and Im pleased and disheartened because its there for all to see what he is like in person. Ive had such great hopes for him that im crushed that he has managed to be so lost for so long. I mean god has given him such a chance in his life and he has not destroyed it completely but come as close as he has and still I wonder will he take what he is saying and really do it or not. I have a lot of people that I would invite to recieve knowledge. He must do it. Its not fair. He has to prove this knowledge by experience. There is so much to say but Ive worked many hours and Im probably too tired to try to say this stuff well. Look old premie, why dont you wait for the new forum that is being set up here and stay on that easy forum. I dont want to dump my stuff on your evolution. My vision is my vision and no need for you to handle it. I really viewed him as so much for so long that I definately have a process ahead of me. As you can tell I havent given up on him because he is making the right kind of noises. But jeez its right there to see if you listen to him that he is frequently angry and well, you watch from your seat in the house and see it as much as you do. I am not interested in altering any one, this is a place of expression. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 24, 1997 at 17:21:05 (EDT)
Poster: bobby Email: To: bill Subject: Re: Holy Family Update? Message: Hmmmm..... Some really interesting perspectives there bro! hope you hang around awhile Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 24, 1997 at 20:16:44 (EDT)
Poster: op Email: To: bill Subject: Re: Holy Family Update? Message: So where you in India when Mataji died? Where was Bal Bhagwan? I definitely hear what you're saying, but I've been working all day too, and feel too tired and stupid to make any profound insightful remarks. I wouldn't be welcome on the new forum because I'm not 'ex'. I'll get back to you another time, unless this forum keeps moving so fast
there's no time to look back.
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Date: Thurs, Apr 24, 1997 at 21:45:00 (EDT)
Poster: Anon Email: To: bill Subject: Re: Holy Family Update? Message: Now let s get this straight Bill. As I hear it, you think that there is hope that MJ may not hide his private behaviour (and hypocrisy) but will bare himself warts and all to the premies. I am personally, like you, still in touch and very disturbed in my conscience by the things I have heard about MJ which are from trustworthy people. I think as a premie it is natural to want to know about the life of one s Master. My attitude was never to cynically investigate the grapevine to get the dirt on him, I too sought the truth and a deeper understanding of devotion by getting as close as I could to him in person. If I had met MJ personally in 1977 I would have probably been over-awed with admiration. I have since then had quite a few opportunities to meet him and get to know and talk with those who are close to him . I have noticed that around him there is a deep respect mixed with a sinister sycophanticism which he tolerates, or rather appears to encourage. This has been my impression. I feel he has become isolated from the positive care and feedback of others by his own paranoiac superiority complex. The atmosphere around him seems not entirely healthy, those trusted inner circle premies don t seem to dare criticise him even with the best of intentions. They seem threatened by the prospect of being angrily bawled out from his society, as have the likes of many apparently. So they fawn to him and help him to keep his hypocrisies and more controversial private behaviour from becoming general knowlege. These guys and MJ surely lose some of their human integrity in the process. As a result of trying to serve MJ closely I have become burdened with much information (a lot second hand from the grapevine) which is pretty much obviously true. I, like Scott, am privately hearing of things which would be dreadfully damaging to MJ s credibility should they become more common knowledge. A lot of these things are arguably on the sleaze level (ie. drink and women). I know of other things which are socially immoral to me which MJ has tolerated and benefitted from (ie. money matters). Is MJ going to bare all and pre-empt some whistleblower from doing so? I suppose this would at least be interpreted by premies as being a virtuous and brave-hearted confession. I think his ego is saying I m going back to India where they really appreciate me roughly translated = Yikes, the shit s hitting the fan in the west, I m outta here, at least the Indians will still appreciate and support a Satguru Are things getting a bit hot for him over here? Jeez. If if the things I ve
heard are true he could be in for some embarrasing and personally painful
moments. Do we all protect him from this because we love and respect him and
honestly sanction his behaviour, or are we just silent because we are mindful
and cautious that we may be personally dragged into legal proceedings by his
cover-up team? One thing is certain . There are those who are zealously
committed to protecting MJ from sleaze and they have at their disposal all the
legal power that such enormous wealth buys.
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Date: Fri, Apr 25, 1997 at 11:17:08 (EDT)
Poster: JW Email: To: Anon Subject: Re: Holy Family Update? Message: I don't think Maharaj Ji or his minions would bring a lawsuit against people saying what they heard others say to them (which wouldn't be actionable under the law anyway; there is no law against repeating what someone told you, otherwise known as free speech, unless you absolutely know it to be false) and a lawsuit would just bring what can now be discarded as "rumors" into the open and under oath and fully available to the press, which Maharaj Ji has apparently been consciously trying to avoid. If a lawsuit were brought against you or anyone else by GMJ or whatever his organization now is, I for one, and I know there would be many others, would be happy to commit my resources to mount a vigorous defense, while at the same time bringing these things out in the open by deposing under oath everyone who is or ever was around him and knows information that those who have followed him, or are considering it, should be entitled to. GMJ is definitely, definitely, a "Public Figure" such that the libel and slander laws, to the extent they would be applied at all, would be construed VERY narrowly. Even the National Enquirer gets away with what it does, because the subjects of their paper are people who have put themselves in the public eye. Maharaj Ji certainly falls into that category. Bringing that information out, would also allow GMJ to defend himself against untrue allegations. As it is now, the rumors will just contiune to spread and he will die by a thousand cuts, instead of dealing with any problems in the open. Who knows, maybe if that stuff was dealt with, it would help him get on with whatever constructive work he can do (and I agree he certainly has, and has had, a unique opportunity that few others have had) to really benefit the spiritual development of people. Finally, I don't believe GMJ would ever risk a lawsuit against a current or former follower. The negative publicity would be worse than any of the information you talk about coming out. Can you imagine the press? The former Lord of the Universe, the Satguru, (and all that stuff would be dredged up, believe me) who is squeaky clean and who lives in the world but is not of it, attacking a lowly devotee for pointing out that the emperor has no clothes? Never in a million years. To tell you the truth, I think some people don't speak out about what they
know because they still have programming on some level that makes them believe
that GMJ just might really be god and they want to CYA and not get on his bad
side just in case. Sounds ridiculous, but I know people who think GMJ is a
real jerk, but still, on some level, are scared by him, but not really by him
per se, rather the image that had been created in their heads. For some
people, there were just too many years of endless satsangs where the concept
of his divinity was reinforced. That, coupled with our judeo-christian fear of
the lord, makes people afraid. I think that's sad, because they are not free
to form a true opinion of him yet and to see him as he really is, and many
people are deprived of information they should have because it would help them
put what they see as an unfortunate period in their lives behind them once and
for all.
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Date: Wed, Apr 23, 1997 at 09:20:09 (EDT)
Poster: Deena Email: To: Everyone Subject: I FEEL LIKE CELEBRATING Message: It came to me as one of those just opening my eyes waking up realizations this morning. Something that may have been obvious to some of you. I realized that my views on this forum are doing something that actually helps. I was feeling the guilt of giving my side- that it was somehow harmful. But I realize now that what MJ is doing is already defended by it's very existence. Some balance is needed and that is what the stories of people who speak here is providing. A place where premies, ex-premies, aspirants or interested people who have been invited to public events, can sort out how they feel. They can choose through their deductions based on theri ability to think clearly. This forum is a sounding board. It is needed. Despite my husband or premies like him whose fears and feelings of personal slander where MJ's credability is questioned. Despite their paranoid feelings I can see now the necessity for honesty goes beyond my own persona healing. That if even one person reads something here that frees them from the pain of the duality that I experienced in my life, then that is wonderful. I am sure that premies who feel they may have helped someone sort out their confusion and were able to provide the info they needed for them to come back to MJ also feel they are doing something good. I am not saying I have a mission now. I am just sharing my freedom from guilt that I didn't realize I had in the first place. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 23, 1997 at 09:59:02 (EDT)
Poster: Bobby Email: To: Deena Subject: Re: I FEEL LIKE CELEBRATING Message: I'm celebrating today as well Deena for some of the same reasons as you and then some of my own. Today's my birthday. I'm 47. There's some sadness. I sure ain't a social success. I have a chronic history of little money and lack of worldly fulfillment. I don't blame it on Maharaji or my years in the premie community. (I don't however, disparage other people's feelings that they have been harmed in whatever way.) Like you Deena, I celebrate and enjoy the wonderful opportunity I've had here to express myself in the company of a variety of people who have been involved with Maharaji. My participation in this forum has been painful at times, but I welcome the opportunity to come to terms with the realities of my life and mindsets. I invite all to express what is true for them. I love the
personal stories.
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Date: Wed, Apr 23, 1997 at 11:57:09 (EDT)
Poster: JW Email: To: Deena Subject: Re: I FEEL LIKE CELEBRATING Message: Deena, I think that what you are doing here is extremely valuable. You can make a valuable contribution because your involvement is so recent, unlike mine, since I left the cult 13 years ago. Nevertheless, all of us have the opportunity to at least do the following: 1. Don't let Guru Maharaj Ji get away with re-writing history and avoiding his responsiblity for consciously heading a cult, one of the major purposes of which was worship and aggrandizement of himself, with all the trappings of regal oppulence and ritual that went along with that. Those of us who experienced it and aren't so programmed that we can live with the contradictions should speak up, especially to people who might be hearing about the guru for the first time. 2. In furtherance of the above, I think it would be appropriate to publicize as much as possible, the reality of the guru's past actions. For example, I would like to see permanantly placed on a webb site, all the pictures of GMJ in crowns, on lavish thrones, and Rolls Royces/planes, in darshan lines, etc. I also think he shouldn't be allowed to get away with changing his name to something more relatable; I mean he can do that, but I think it is important for people to continue to refer to him as Guru Maharaj Ji, Lord of the Universe, Satguru, etc. so that those titles are not successfully submerged into history. It would also be great if at least some of the "surrender" and "premie-denegration" satsangs could be made available as well. 3. I think the financial history should also be disclosed. The millions upon millions that he raised from his devotees, the vast majority of which went directly to his opulent lifestyle. I know some people don't care about that because the Perfect Master is not subject to the morals and values of the rest of us, but the vast majority of people would want to at least take that into consideration. 4. Finally, people who were ripped off my Guru Maharaj Ji and his cult should speak out. The internet is a good way to do that. Even though it reaches a relatively small audience, word of mouth from what is seen here does travel. For example, I heard about his site from an ex-premie friend of mind who heard about it from someone who still thinks of himself as a premie. Since GMJ is trying desperately to stay below the radar screen of the media and almost everyone else these days, this is one way to create some balance. This medium wasn't around when I got involved with the guru, but if it had been, the outcome might have been different. And, also, premies or others who want to defend the guru should be able to do that as well, as we know is also happening. I think the lines of communication and information should be open, because GMJ is trying hard to limit the information, from what I can see. Who knows? Maybe GMJ will come on the internet and defend/explain himself, or maybe to tell us he thinks we're all idiots. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 23, 1997 at 12:39:45 (EDT)
Poster: Bobby Email: To: JW Subject: Re: I FEEL LIKE CELEBRATING Message: JW wrote: Those of us who experienced it and aren't so programmed that we can live with the contradictions should speak up Do I contradict myself? Very well then, I contradict myself. (I am large. I contain multitudes.) -- Walt Whitman, Song of Myself Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 23, 1997 at 13:05:46 (EDT)
Poster: Anon Email: To: Bobby Subject: Re: I FEEL LIKE CELEBRATING Message: Bobby for Christ's sake do yourself and everybody else a favour and go and make yourself a large cup of coffee or something. Have an early night. JW isn't suggesting that you are contradicting yourself at all. He is talking about the weight on the consciences of Maharaji's followers of the contradictory nature of what has and does go on in Maharaji's name.
(Don't blub if appear to be rude. I love you really.)
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Date: Wed, Apr 23, 1997 at 13:35:12 (EDT)
Poster: Bobby Email: To: Anon Subject: Re: I FEEL LIKE CELEBRATING Message: JW wrote: Those of us who experienced it and aren't so programmed that we can live with the contradictions should speak up, Read it again, JW inferred that those us us who *can live with the contradictions* are *programmed*. I continue to consider Maharaji's actions and statements. It's not all so simple to me. I haven't settled my accounts with reality as some appear here to have done. I think I will have another cup of coffee though, thanks. After all, it's my birthday. Thanks for your kind remark at the end. I love you too.
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Date: Wed, Apr 23, 1997 at 14:30:29 (EDT)
Poster: Mili Email: To: Deena Subject: Re: I FEEL LIKE CELEBRATING Message: It came to me as one of those just opening my eyes waking up realizations this morning. Something that may have been obvious to some of you. I realized that my views on this forum are doing something that actually helps. I was feeling the guilt of giving my side- that it was somehow harmful. But I realize now that what MJ is doing is already defended by it's very existence. Some balance is needed and that is what the stories of people who speak here is providing. A place where premies, ex-premies, aspirants or interested people who have been invited to public events, can sort out how they feel. They can choose through their deductions based on theri ability to think clearly. This forum is a sounding board. It is needed. Despite my husband or premies like him whose fears and feelings of personal slander where MJ's credability is questioned. Despite their paranoid feelings I can see now the necessity for honesty goes beyond my own persona healing. That if even one person reads something here that frees them from the pain of the duality that I experienced in my life, then that is wonderful. I am sure that premies who feel they may have helped someone sort out their confusion and were able to provide the info they needed for them to come back to MJ also feel they are doing something good. I am not saying I have a mission now. I am just sharing my freedom from guilt that I didn't realize I had in the first place. Good for you Deena. You know, when I saw the title of your post, at first I thought I'd write something like - it must make you feel good to get rid of your fake devotion. Then I read your post, and I decided to write that anyway. Do you see my point? - Mili Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 23, 1997 at 14:34:21 (EDT)
Poster: Mili Email: To: Bobby Subject: Re: I FEEL LIKE CELEBRATING Message: JW wrote: Those of us who experienced it and aren't so programmed that we can live with the contradictions should speak up, Read it again, JW inferred that those us us who *can live with the contradictions* are *programmed*. I continue to consider Maharaji's actions and statements. It's not all so simple to me. I haven't settled my accounts with reality as some appear here to have done. I think I will have another cup of coffee though, thanks. After all, it's my birthday. Thanks for your kind remark at the end. I love you too. Happy birthday, Bobby!
- Mili Baba
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Date: Wed, Apr 23, 1997 at 15:22:37 (EDT)
Poster: old premie Email: To: Bobby Subject: Re: I FEEL LIKE CELEBRATING Message: and again: HAPPY BIRTHDAY!! I've got a couple of years on you - it's not as scary as they make it out to be. In fact, my 27-year-old being is still sitting inside this aging body, curious and mischevious and wild as it ever was.
How about you? Any great adventures planned for the day?
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Date: Wed, Apr 23, 1997 at 15:23:50 (EDT)
Poster: Bobby Email: To: Mili Subject: Re: I FEEL LIKE CELEBRATING Message: Thank you Mili! Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 23, 1997 at 15:36:03 (EDT)
Poster: Bobby Email: To: old premie Subject: Re: I FEEL LIKE CELEBRATING Message: Thanks old premie! I've been spending my time today writing on the net, both here and on the Well where us boomers (specially us unreformed hippies) are talking about what what we tell our kids about sex and drugs. Also, in the 'wonderland' Buddhist conference, we're talking about spiritual practice during crisis situations. The juices are flowing and the mind has been working. I just did some meditation. Such a truly wonderful gift this meditation is. I gotta say it. Hey, OP. I can hardly relate to being this age. Strange as it may seem, when I was young I sometimes looked forward to being an old man. I wanted to be an old shaman when I grew up. I don't feel I've changed much. I feel 19. By the way, I really like some of Ginsberg's later poems on getting old. He sings about meditation too. To my mind, trenchantly beautiful. Heather's another wonderful gift to me. My lady. She's making a gingerbread cake and my favorite supper -- some kind of italian meal with roasted red pepper and gorgonza (sp?) cheese and olives. Good stuff? I like your style OP. Do you know Ginger? From Philadelphia,
still an active premie?
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Date: Wed, Apr 23, 1997 at 17:00:41 (EDT)
Poster: Chris Email: To: Bobby Subject: Re: I FEEL LIKE CELEBRATING Message: Bobby: 'There's some sadness. I sure ain't a social success. I have a chronic history of little money and lack of worldly fulfillment. ' You express yourself well. The little money may be the result of not being ruthless. Not so bad. Happy Birthday! CD Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 23, 1997 at 17:20:22 (EDT)
Poster: Chris Email: To: Deena Subject: Re: I FEEL LIKE CELEBRATING Message: I agree with you that people should be honest and express their personal feelings. I am sure that many people find your comments interesting and useful. Putting your views down in words helps you sort yourself out. There should not be censorship on either side of this debate. As far as slander goes, people should just try to have the facts straight. The old story about Maharaji having a $30 million compound in Nigeria and having been put in jail is a pretty clear example of iffy information being posted. Nobody should take Maharaji as a teacher out of blind faith. Faith has its role but it should not be abused. Hope has its role but it should not be abused. Persoanl experience has its role. Sincere best wishes to you, CD Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 23, 1997 at 17:24:57 (EDT)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Bobby Subject: Re: I FEEL LIKE CELEBRATING Message: Poetry is beyond reason. Inappropriate for argument, wonderful for song. Don't confuse them Bobby and you'll have an easier go of it. In other words, you can't win an argument with a metaphor that can't stand close scrutiny. That's the strength, not weakness, of the reasoning process. It works be seeking out and eradicating inconsistencies. Hypocrisy is what you get when you're oblivious to those inconsistencies in your thoughts or words. Integrity is what you get when you won't stand for that in yourself. Hence the joy of admitting when you're wrong. You get to maintain your internal standards of rationality. Poetry, on the other hand, is just an emotive wash of words. Like sex, It's best in dim light, not laboratory conditions. Relevance? Notice how Maharaji's apologists always try to
construe his words as poetic. That way, they hope, he'll be
off
the hook for saying anything specific. Do you think this is
honest? Do you think Maharaji never MEANT anything that he
said?
I don't and I don't think you do either. So let's fry him!
Let's make him deal with his words. Why? Because we already
did deal with them. In spades.
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Date: Wed, Apr 23, 1997 at 17:33:23 (EDT)
Poster: Bobby Email: To: Chris Subject: Re: I FEEL LIKE CELEBRATING Message: Thanks for the birthday greets and the positive acknowledgments of my expressions. Sometimes I need that. God made me who I am and I pray for guidance on the path. That's about as basic as it gets. As others report, I find there's a lot I don't know. A lot of mystery. Things have been rather emotional for me today. I don't mind saying that I'm easily moved to tears. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 23, 1997 at 18:08:44 (EDT)
Poster: Bobby Email: To: Jim Subject: Re: I FEEL LIKE CELEBRATING Message: Here we disagree Jim. The universe *is* metaphor! Not logic. Logic is a vehicle, not a totality. I don't have any arguments to win. There are plenty of circumstances I can *reason* out in negative ways. And where have any of the arguments gotten us? The argument as to whether Maharaji is culpable or not is not worth my time or energy. I enjoy hearing varieties of perspectives, but don't feel compelled to 'make up my mind'. I believe I got what I needed during my years with Maharaji. Personally, I was extremely vulnerable and sensitive, more than it seems you could be aware of Jim. I might not have been able to make it were it not for the protection of the ashram experience. As crazy as things were in a sense, there was a lot of love and support that came across. I was among friends. I needed friends. There was no other place I knew of where I could get the support I needed. See, Jim, if I have an argument with anyone, it is with the society and the system that locked me up naked in a steel cell for days at a time, forced drugged me, and raped me. This is called the mental health system. This was after a profound near-death experience and a subsequent spiritual emergency experience. The spiritual experiences that I had in 1969 remain with me as profound reference points. I see verification in experiences of saints, mystics and shamans. This "mental health" system told me I would need psychiatric
drugs for the rest of my life. I've taken none since I left the
hospital in April of 1970. Instead I worked in 3 state
hospitals
for a total of 10 years. I can no longer work in these places.
Because of the mental and physical abuse on the part of the
staff. I care about the folks.
As far as hypocrisy goes, here is what my dictionary has to say: hy·poc·ri·sy (h¹-p¼k“r¹-s¶)
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Date: Wed, Apr 23, 1997 at 18:38:20 (EDT)
Poster: Bobby Email: To: Jim Subject: Re: I FEEL LIKE CELEBRATING Message: Time for a quote: Against that positivism which stops before phenomena, saying
'there are only facts,' I should say: no: it is precisely facts
that do not exist, only interpretations.
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Date: Wed, Apr 23, 1997 at 20:03:45 (EDT)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Bobby Subject: Re: I FEEL LIKE CELEBRATING Message: I won't reason with you about reasoning. It's like throwing someone a rope -- both ends. But (well, here I go, what a hypocrite I am, huh?) I just have to ask you this: do you not expect people to respond rationally to your posts? Don't you get upset if someone doesn't take you seriously when you think you've got a good point? Sure you do, Bobby. We all do. So aren't you being a little inconsistent saying that you're not signed up for rationality? But then again, don't I have something better to do than reason with some spiritually confused little puppy who thinks that reason is an evil practise of, well people like me, I guess, on talk shows? Bobby, you sound like you've got a very legitimate gripe
against the mental health profession. I'd suggest you join the
Church of Scientology.
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Date: Wed, Apr 23, 1997 at 20:13:39 (EDT)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Bobby Subject: Re: I FEEL LIKE CELEBRATING Message: Have you ever thought to question your sources? Oh you newagers! Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 23, 1997 at 21:42:48 (EDT)
Poster: old premie Email: To: Bobby Subject: Re: I FEEL LIKE CELEBRATING Message: Hmmm. I signed on about an hour ago and seeing all your posts thought, ah, he really is getting older - he spent his birthday arguing with Jim. Sounds like you lead a pretty interesting life, though. And I certainly wouldn't be put off by all of Jim's argument style - you have your own uniqueness and few if any of your grey cells seem to have collapsed with age. No, I don't know Ginger - at least not by name. I'm a bit jealous of you, that you get to read so much. I used to like reading. Now I work in publishing (scholarly - don't ask me to promote your next novel), and I have to deal with so many nonsensical authors that I don't bother reading anything but a few mysteries every once in a while. I still might write my own version of the great american novel some day, though. When I received Knowledge, I thought I was going to leave my whole ego-self somewhere on a shelf in cosmic space on my flight to Wonderland. Turns out that personalities are a lot of fun, and I still revel in how many different ones there are.
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Date: Thurs, Apr 24, 1997 at 01:18:57 (EDT)
Poster: Bill Email: To: Bobby Subject: Re: I FEEL LIKE CELEBRATING Message: happy birthday depending on your time zone I might be on time. You had used the word satsang one day and seeing that hindi word kind of got me. So I got in the mood to give satsang. Kabir style I guess. Sorry about the tone but that word. The average life span of people who are older than 50 is actually 84 for a man and 88 for a women. It's the young people that blow the curve. So you have lots of time probably to spend with us in pretty angry Jims world. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 24, 1997 at 01:22:54 (EDT)
Poster: old premie Email: To: Bobby Subject: Re: I FEEL LIKE CELEBRATING Message: Two more notes, by the way: I never responded to you about Jane Patterson because I really don't know any details. The same person who told me about Bill going off and doing some sort of cyberspace mind-bending practice also told me that Jane had died. I never knew her well and hadn't seen her in over 20 years. And - you might make it to shaman yet.
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Date: Thurs, Apr 24, 1997 at 06:22:36 (EDT)
Poster: x Email: To: old premie Subject: Re: I FEEL LIKE CELEBRATING Message: OK Old P. You are in publishing. What do you think of the 'book reselling business' that is set up by premies and the profits of which swell MJ's coffers. Did you know that the authors (whose books they trade) are deprived of their rightful royalties as a result of the premies dodgy parasitical business practices? Does anyone know more about this affair? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 24, 1997 at 11:23:24 (EDT)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Bill Subject: Re: I FEEL LIKE CELEBRATING Message: Am I pretty, angry or both? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 24, 1997 at 12:13:48 (EDT)
Poster: JW Email: To: x Subject: Re: I FEEL LIKE CELEBRATING Message: OK Old P. You are in publishing. What do you think of the 'book reselling business' that is set up by premies and the profits of which swell MJ's coffers. Did you know that the authors (whose books they trade) are deprived of their rightful royalties as a result of the premies dodgy parasitical business practices? Does anyone know more about this affair? Yeah, I know all about it. I never did it myself because I was one of those ashram premies to made too much money in my "Outside Job" to do one of the cult businesses, until I was nabbed to be a cult administrator myself. Anyhow, I was told by friend who is GMJ's ex-lawyer that GMJ was trying to take over directly some of the businesses as a source of income because he didn't have the ashrams anymore and because he knew donations would drop with out his darshan-line fundrasing technique and if people got the idea he might not be really god. Anyhow, the business works like this: Premie cult-members go around to universities, colleges, etc. and go to professors' offices. Professors and other educators get sample textbooks all the time as a means to try to get them to assign the textbooks to their classes. The professors get them for free, but resale is not allowed, and technically illegal under the copyright laws, because, as x mentioned, it theoretically deprives the author of royalties from the book sale, although the law is probably impossible to enforce. Anyhow, the cult member offers the professor 50 cents or a dollar or two for the books. Some professors actually toss the cult members out of their offices calling them sleazebags, but the majority are happy to get rid of the books piling up on their bookshelves and happy to get a little money for them. The premies then collect all the books and pack them into large boxes and ship them to book wholesalers who pay $5 or so for each book, depending what they are. The difference between the price they pay the professor for the book and what the wholesalers pay is all profit. There was even more profit in the early days because the premies usually lived in ashrams where they were supported by people like me who had real jobs. The business was amazingly profitable. For example, during the Boeing 707 fundraising, I know that where I lived ALL of the profits of the business went directly to the plane, at least for a period of time, and more people were put into the business to raise even more money. At first, it was being done by groups of premies in different places around the country. But in the early 80s there was an attempt to organize the business on a more national basis, with the profits going directly to the guru. I don't know if he was ever successful in getting legal control over the business, but that is what I was told he was trying to do. JW Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 24, 1997 at 12:17:49 (EDT)
Poster: JW Email: To: JW Subject: Re: I FEEL LIKE CELEBRATING Message: Oh, did I mention that the business was all done in cash and no income taxes were ever paid, at least when I was around, on any of the profits. IRS, are you listening? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 24, 1997 at 16:31:41 (EDT)
Poster: Bill Email: To: Jim Subject: Re: I FEEL LIKE CELEBRATING Message: You have a good sense of humor, that you have proven again and again. sarcasm during educating sessions is a bit demeaning to the person you want to help and so they close up to you when you want them to hear you. Ive seen that effect again and again also. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 24, 1997 at 16:45:32 (EDT)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Bill Subject: Re: I FEEL LIKE CELEBRATING Message: Bill, The sarcasm's to preserve my own interest and sanity as well as make points. Often, it's impossible to make any headway with irrational opposition. Might as well have some fun with it. Bill, I paid my nickel. So did you. We have earned the right to speak our minds freely and naturally in this forum. I try to respect all correspondents -- such is my natural buddha nature -- but that respect decays in the face of bad faith or stupidity. And why not? Otherwise it's all fake, cardboard Dettmers-like, Smith-like, Maharaji-like. These 'educating sessions' aren't exactly signed up for as such. If this was a seminar on how to see through Maharaji I'd say that most of the activity's happening out near the reception table or in the cloakroom, it certainly isn't focused in front of the blackboard. The only thing I have to add is that I don't think for a moment I've got anything much to educate anyone about. Just a few obvious historical points about this trip. Thanks. Oh yeah, another thing. We all have our own
style. Isn't it neat that way?
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Date: Thurs, Apr 24, 1997 at 17:50:26 (EDT)
Poster: anon Email: To: Deena Subject: Re: I FEEL LIKE CELEBRATING Message: I recognize from your posts that you are someone who has related your experience to that of your husband. I did the same thing. We are divorced now, but it took me a long time to separate my feelings about Maharaji and KNowledge from his. He is one of those "I hate the world" types and I even believe that he hides behind Maharaji and KNowledge. However, my experience of life is my own...It took me a while to come to my own terms with Maharaji and Knowledge...about four years...but now I see that I perceive things so differently from him--including Knowledge. So, my point here is that M has said over and over that a person has to come on his or her own. This is not something we DO WITH SOMEBODY ELSE. And the really cool thing is that Maharaji has it set up now so that YOU ARE INVOLVED BECAUSE YOU WANT TO AND FOR NO OTHER REASON. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 24, 1997 at 18:05:28 (EDT)
Poster: Jim Email: To: anon Subject: Re: I FEEL LIKE CELEBRATING Message: Hey, what about the Family of Love? Why, oh why, can't I get this straight? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 24, 1997 at 20:08:53 (EDT)
Poster: op Email: To: JW Subject: Re: I FEEL LIKE CELEBRATING Message: I know a few people who still do it. It's still very profitable, but the individuals make the money. I know they pay taxes, because I know someone complaining about it. I think it's been cleaned up considerably. A lot of people in it are not premies. As for the royalties, part - I've asked about it. I was not given a clear answer - it seemed to the person I spoke with not to apply because the books are sold as used material. Since the books were freebies to begin with, no royalties were expected on them in the first place. I'll look into it further. The prices seem to have changed a bit from when you knew about it - the
professors get paid about $5-$10 per book, and the books are resold at about
$16-20, as far as I know. These are ballpark figures.
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Date: Thurs, Apr 24, 1997 at 20:55:28 (EDT)
Poster: JW Email: To: op Subject: Re: I FEEL LIKE CELEBRATING Message: Well, to clarify, authors enter into contracts which allow so many books to be given away as promotions and for which they do not receive royalties. Those books are not supposed to be sold. Theoretically, if you sell one of those "promotion" books, as opposed to a used book for which a royalty has already been paid, the buyer is not purchasing a new book and hence the author loses the royalty. That is technically against the copyright laws, but as I said, it's almost impossible to enforce, because the wholesaler just denies any knowledge that the books are promotional, but rather "used" books, like you were referring to. I'm glad they're paying taxes. You and Chris know how concerned I am about the IRS. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 24, 1997 at 23:21:51 (EDT)
Poster: newage old premie Email: To: Jim Subject: Re: I FEEL LIKE CELEBRATING Message: Oh yeah, another thing. We all have our own style. Isn't it neat that way? The most beautiful gardens are made up of a variety of flowers. All roses
would be pretty dull.
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Date: Thurs, Apr 24, 1997 at 23:23:50 (EDT)
Poster: old premie Email: To: newage old premie Subject: Re: I FEEL LIKE CELEBRATING Message: YAY! It worked! I really wanted to try out that italics stuff. I did mean the message too, though.
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Date: Wed, Apr 23, 1997 at 08:31:14 (EDT)
Poster: Scott Email: To: Old Premie Subject: Getting paragraph breaks to work Message: Dear Old Premie, et al.: Thanks for the prodding re: paragraph breaks. I have since incorporated a special instruction on how to insert paragraph breaks in your messages at the bottom of each post page. Example... If I type the following text in the message box of the post page:
This is paragraph 1. It will read in the forum like this:
This is paragraph 1.
Many happy carriage returns......
- Scott
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Date: Wed, Apr 23, 1997 at 08:45:47 (EDT)
Poster: bobby Email: To: Scott Subject: Re: Getting paragraph breaks to work Message: Thanks Scott. Technically speaking though - the 'br' stands for 'break' and starts a new line 'p' starts a new paragraph, in html skipping a line
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Date: Wed, Apr 23, 1997 at 09:03:45 (EDT)
Poster: Scott Email: To: bobby Subject: Re: Getting paragraph breaks to work Message: Thanks Scott. Technically speaking though - the 'br' stands for 'break' and starts a new line 'p' starts a new paragraph, in html skipping a line
Dear Bobby, <br> = single carriage return.
Many Happy Double Carriage Returns, - Scott
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Date: Wed, Apr 23, 1997 at 10:45:31 (EDT)
Poster: MORE HTML IDEAS Email: To: All Subject: Re: Getting paragraph breaks to work Message: In the spirit of improving the legibility of our posts generally here are some more easily implemented HTML tags: < I > Around your text < / I > will look like this: Around your text < center > Around your text < / center > will be centered like this: < B > Around your text < / B > will look like this: Around your text < TT > Around your text < / TT > will look like this: Around your text Don't leave spaces in between the characters though.
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Date: Tues, Apr 22, 1997 at 23:07:17 (EDT)
Poster: JW Email: To: Everyone Subject: Claudia Message: Can anyone confirm or deny whether Claudia, who was married to Raja Ji, before he divorced her, is dead or alive? If she is dead, how did she die? I doubt Bill would joke about a thing like that, but Bill, can you confirm that you weren't? Also is it true that one of her kids was GMJ's? Really? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 23, 1997 at 04:37:45 (EDT)
Poster: Dave P. Email: To: JW Subject: Re: Claudia Message: Does anyone know of a 'kiss and tell' book supposedly written by Claudia about her time with MJ and RJ? A guy on MJ's tour staff told me it was due to be published sometime last year. I met this guy at the last Brighton(UK) program which I attended early 1996. Maybe it was just gossip. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 24, 1997 at 00:47:09 (EDT)
Poster: Bill Email: To: JW Subject: Re: Claudia Message: I cant believe I have access to a computer already , its not very often. anyway, I was at Claudias house working on Raja whatever's room. She was dating a guy who was fun and I think its to bad he died. So did his boyfriend, and frankly, quite a few people with knowledge died of it. I heard two or three years ago that it was very hushed up,like everthing apperently, I cant seem to spell tonight, but that she died of aids. If claudia is alive and writing a book then that is a better rumour. some things I mentioned are well I hate to be coy or something but some things I would have said I dont want in the new yorker even though they are _ _ _ _ . Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 24, 1997 at 12:21:19 (EDT)
Poster: JW Email: To: Bill Subject: Re: Claudia Message: Thanks, Bill, I'm sorry to hear that. I used to talk to Claudia sometimes in Miami, and I always got the impression that, despite the elegant clothes and lifestyle with Raja Ji, that it was all pretty difficult for her. But what about the kid that supposedly was MJ's? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 24, 1997 at 14:20:38 (EDT)
Poster: Scott Email: To: Bill Subject: Re: Claudia Message: Dear Bill, - You definately sound like you believe the things you are saying about Claudia. Apparently JW knows you and of your integrity and I am inclined to believe you aren't making up a story, but are saying what you feel to be true. Just so you know you are not alone Bill, there are other premies who have shared other such stories with me, only with the promise of my confidentiality. I have been trying to persuade them to take the brave step you took to share these stories, but they have not yet had the courage. I hope that they do, now that the ice around Maharaji is finally starting to melt. - Due to the number of other such stories that I have heard, I am inclined to believe that your account is probably true. While it saddens me to be sharing information of such personal tragedies and broken trusts, I feel that it is our duty not to let the lies and fantasies about M.'s being some sort of savior persist any longer. As former premies we are the only ones who can get Maharaji out of the closet of the sort of 'executive privilege' that he has been sheltered in by people like ourselves for so long, and thus protect future 'Claudias' from similar tragedies. In fact, assuming this account is true, I think that in Claudia's memory, we owe it to her to get this story out, so that her personal tragedy and death will not have been in vain. - I commend you Bill for your courage in sharing these accounts. It seems obvious to me that your sharing of these things comes only quite painfully for you, as I would naturally expect. I hope that the others I spoke of will soon follow your lead, as this will certainly assist in getting the truth of the matter out.
Sincerely, |
Date: Thurs, Apr 24, 1997 at 15:34:59 (EDT)
Poster: Scott, caution Email: To: Bill Subject: Re: Claudia Message: Dear Bill, - Just a note of caution. I would recommend that you, or anyone else who may know any such information about Maharaji be careful to only present it here if it is verifiable. Otherwise you might only be making a messy situation even messier. Naturally, were anyone to present an outright fabrication here, such a person would run the risk of being legally taken to task for such an intentional mis-information.
Sincerely, |
Date: Thurs, Apr 24, 1997 at 16:21:20 (EDT)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Scott, caution Subject: Re: Claudia Message: Scott, Maharaji in court? Give me a break! On the other hand, I agree that no one should be lying
about anything here. Who needs it?
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Date: Thurs, Apr 24, 1997 at 16:37:32 (EDT)
Poster: Bill Email: To: Scott, caution Subject: Re: Claudia Message: I dont need to worry about this one. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 24, 1997 at 19:59:39 (EDT)
Poster: old premie Email: To: Bill Subject: Re: Claudia Message: Bill - I'll address this to you because you brought it up: how does the fact that Claudia died of aids become Maharaji's fault? Also, are you absolutely sure? You say no need to worry - but ARE YOU SURE?
Before the lawsuits start coming in.
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Date: Thurs, Apr 24, 1997 at 21:00:04 (EDT)
Poster: JW Email: To: old premie Subject: Re: Claudia Message: Look, if he knows she's dead, I don't think he has to worry that she is going to sue him. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 24, 1997 at 21:12:43 (EDT)
Poster: JW Email: To: Scott Subject: Re: Claudia Message: Scott, why do you think those people who tell you things confidentially, are afraid to tell their stories, or even afraid to let you tell them? What do you think they have to fear? Bill, I also thank you for sharing information that there has apparently been a concerted effort to conceal. But why? What does anyone, even GMJ, have to gain by concealing it? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 24, 1997 at 23:13:34 (EDT)
Poster: old premie Email: To: JW Subject: Re: Claudia Message: Scott, why do you think those people who tell you things confidentially, are afraid to tell their stories, or even afraid to let you tell them? What do you think they have to fear?Bill, I also thank you for sharing information that there has apparently been a concerted effort to conceal. But why? What does anyone, even GMJ, have to gain by concealing it? In Claudia's case...how about confidentiality out of respect for her
friends and family?
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Date: Fri, Apr 25, 1997 at 05:04:38 (EDT)
Poster: Scott Email: To: JW Subject: Re: Claudia Message: Scott, why do you think those people who tell you things confidentially, are afraid to tell their stories, or even afraid to let you tell them? What do you think they have to fear? Bill, I also thank you for sharing information that there has apparently been a concerted effort to conceal. But why? What does anyone, even GMJ, have to gain by concealing it? Dear JW, - In this case, as I see it, the 'biggie' that Bill has had the courage to bring out into the light isn't so much the part about Claudia dying of Aids. It's the 'elephant in the middle of the meditation room' (as Bobby put it) that already I see us starting to dance around, in our references to it on this forum. It's the claim that M. not only cheated on his own wife, but that he also cheated on his brother and sister-in-law which resulted in the birth of some poor child who is probably now locked in someone's closet right now, just to keep the secret, (assuming this is true). - Reading this stuff actually gives me a sick feeling in the pit of my stomache, realizing that this is the very same Maharaji that I once poured out my heart and soul to. It does this to me, even though I left M. over 15 years ago. What reaction will it cause in those who are still with him? - No one likes to be the messenger of bad news. Particularly when it's something like, 'Hey did you know that old grandfather Fred is not only cousin Mike's grandfather, he's also his father?' I think this claim about M. almost affects us on the same level as incest within our own family. In many families such tales are known or suspected by all, but admitted by no one. I believe that these types of families are always made the worse for their failure to hold these sad truths up in the light and fresh air of the truth. This truth is the truth of accountablity, reason, and I believe ultimately when this light has revealed the highest truth of the matter, forgiveness. Sincerely, Scott
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Date: Fri, Apr 25, 1997 at 09:45:04 (EDT)
Poster: Jim Email: To: old premie Subject: Re: Claudia Message: Sorry, OP, confidentiality ain't quite enough for a woman who first came into my sights as a new-found deity for my lord's divine brother. Claudia came with Raja Ji to our ashram in Ottawa where we tried to turn the place into a private 4 star restaurant and treated them with fawning servility. I want to know what happened to her. Maharaji's own media organ is slightly remiss in this area. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 25, 1997 at 11:27:57 (EDT)
Poster: JW Email: To: Scott Subject: Re: Claudia Message: Thanks, Scott. I hear what you are saying and the pain you feel in talking about someone who has been so important in your life. On the other hand, maybe such things just demonstrate that GMJ is a human being, has been living his life in an outrageously strange mileau not entirely of his making, which has resulted in some strange events. I, for one, would probably like GMJ a lot more, and actually be somewhat
open to him if he would come forward and proclaim his humanity, with all the
mistakes that humans make. It's the coverup, the facade of divinity and
perfection that is the real crime, in my opinion, and always has been. Lots of
families have had adultery, alcoholism and illigitimate births in them. That's
sad, especially if there is a child suffering as a result of it......But if it
were brought out and recognized, maybe the child wouldn't suffer anymore? Or
at least have a decent chance at a somewhat normal life?
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Date: Fri, Apr 25, 1997 at 11:52:29 (EDT)
Poster: JW Email: To: old premie Subject: Re: Claudia Message: I don't think someone's death can be or should be kept confidential. Someone with half a brain can confirm through public records that someone has died, including the cause of death. Total concealment is impossible. So, it can't be kept secret to begin with. But more than that, although I was not a close friend of Claudia, she is someone I was at least acquainted with, and most of us recall her presence very much in the Maharaj Ji world. I remember in 1975 or so when Navi was born, GMJ asked us to meditate all day while the delivery took place. I think it was kind of a difficult birth. Anyhow, there are many people who have at least some emotional and historical involvement with Claudia and there should be at least the common courtesy to let us know what happened to her if she died. That is just common decency. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 25, 1997 at 13:39:59 (EDT)
Poster: JW Email: To: Scott Subject: Re: Claudia Message: I have also heard the reports, from people with close access to GMJ for years that GMJ drank a lot and cheated on his wife, but this is the first indication to me that Claudia was involved or that there might be a child involved. But those statements to me, by people whom I trust and have no reason to lie, were made a number of years ago. Unlike you, I have no "grapevine" anymore whatsoever. I left for good almost 14 years ago and never wanted to look back. Although I know people who currently consider themselves premies, it seems to me that GMJ is really quite peripheral to their lives. When they go to programs, which is only sometimes, they describe it kind of like a class reunion of some sort. It's described as a opportunity to see some friends have a little fun. It's very unlike the way being in the presence of GMJ was described 14 years ago. So, I think revelations about GMJ's behavior these days wouldn't be as
distressing to premies as it would have been in the past, because they have
more external support mechanisms than I had when I was a premie. In those
days, many premies, including myself, had nothing else in our lives but GMJ.
So, Old Premie, if you had proof these things were true, would it change your
view of GMJ and what he means to you?
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Date: Tues, Apr 22, 1997 at 22:30:38 (EDT)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Everyone Subject: Best Compliment? Message: Check out the new premie pages, replete with Scott's own choice pics! You have to go to Harlan's link page cuz I Idon't have the url. But the graphics are great. The host, Ian, has taken all the soft-core pics from Scott's page and left out the hardcore one. He's also got some tepid satsang. Gets me wondering.... do you think Maharaji will ever
spring for some sort of 'netnanny' software for his kiddies so they
don't have to risk exposure to this viral smut?
Jim
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Date: Tues, Apr 22, 1997 at 23:39:30 (EDT)
Poster: JW Email: To: Jim Subject: Re: Best Compliment? Message: I checked out the page. Nice graphics, but some of the pictures are cut off at the chin. Also, is that REAL satsang, it seems to be written in verse. Are those satsangs AUTHORIZED? Also I checked out the clearview site. WHAT is with THAT? Is that one of the guru's businesses? Also, Jim, you being a Canadian and all, do you know whatever happened to Gary Ockenden? He was an initiator, and a nice guy. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 23, 1997 at 04:56:04 (EDT)
Poster: Brian Email: To: Jim Subject: Re: Best Compliment? Message: Flashback to 1972... the Denver Ashram... I remember the Teletype machine that stood in the office. The "posts" from other Ashrams tracking MJ's current location, the miles of ticker-tape. It was all pretty hi-tech. ABDIC Bolies on tape, with every other character a 'bel', written, cut, and taped into a loop to repeat the salute and beg MJ to come to Denver... That was fun. As for actually ever being able to resolve "www.elanvital.org", don't bet on it. Figure 20 bucks per month per premie for access, 8-12 hundred per premie for hardware, then you gotta add the price of the server. As for the cost of the T1 (minimum bandwidth) per month -- it's just not cost effective to allow the Baby Bells in on the cash pool. Also doesn't leave much room for premies to come up with the $1.00 per minute access charges. On the other side (of the equation), you have 20 bucks per premie for a used color tv, 50-150 bucks for a VCR, electricity costs are negligible... and the rest of the pool is completely available to cover costs of video recording (performed as Service), handling, copying, handling, delivery, handling, word-of-mouth advertising, no implicit access to "alt.cults.brandx" videos... sounds Perfect! ...Stay outa the cult business, Jim. You have no head whatsoever for money.
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Date: Wed, Apr 23, 1997 at 19:41:42 (EDT)
Poster: Jim Email: To: JW Subject: Re: Best Compliment? Message: Jw, Just to put in writing what I told you otherwise yesterday, Gary was on national radio here in Canada yesterday morning. He's head of the Red Cross in eastern British Columbia and lives in Nelson, B.C. with his wife and two kids. He was talking about relief in the region for flood victims. I've talked with Gary a few times. I lived in the Vancouver ashram with him in '74 and he transferred me a few times here and there. Gary tells me he has no current interest in Maharaji and that that whole era is a distant past for him. I've encouraged him to get involved a little more. Him and his buddy, Mike Donner, who also lives in the Kootenays. Those guys just ain't into it. After the braodcast I called Gary's place and spoke to his
wife. I mentioned our little ex-cult party and she said she'd
tell him about it. Personally, and I've told Gary this, I
think former DLM bigshots have a particular responsibility to deal
with the Maharaji legacy of confusion. At least to publicly
denounce him as they'd once publicly acclaimed him so vigorously. But
then that's just my opinion, I guess.
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Date: Wed, Apr 23, 1997 at 19:48:48 (EDT)
Poster: JW Email: To: Jim Subject: Re: Best Compliment? Message: For the record, there is a lot in that message that you did not tell me yesterday; and why can't you just accept a lob when you get one? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 23, 1997 at 20:18:13 (EDT)
Poster: Jim Email: To: JW Subject: Re: Best Compliment? Message: Sure. Okay. Alright. I thought you'd posted BEFORE we chatted. Sorry. Thanks by the way for the band names. Seriously, I've got to come up with something. Hey, gotta go. My ride's here. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Apr 22, 1997 at 20:37:45 (EDT)
Poster: genes@netrunner.net Email: To: Shri Shri Webmaster Subject: Help Message: Can anyone help me understand why I have such a difficult time reading these posts? Instead of sentences, they appear as run-onlines which sometimes disappear off the end of the screen after I've horizontally scrolled to the maximum. Does eveyone have this problem? I've heard it said that others don't have this problem, but I would like to kep reading if I can clear this up. Thanks in advance to anyone who can help. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Apr 22, 1997 at 21:22:05 (EDT)
Poster: Anon Email: To: genes@netrunner.net Subject: Re: Help Message: What browser are you using? There should be no problem with Netscape. It sounds very annoying but I can't find any 'preference' setting in Netscape that enables me to reproduce what you describe. Have you got your screen on a very low resolution? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Apr 22, 1997 at 17:06:13 (EDT)
Poster: Kurt Andersen Email: To: Everyone Subject: I'm Writing a Piece Message: I am not a premie or an ex-premie. I am not anti-Maharaji or pro-, I don't meditate, I don't deprogram. I have, however, read all the messages currently on this site. I am a writer, and I've just started working on an article for The New Yorker magazine about Maharaji. My interest in Maharaji and Divine Light Mission derives from the fact that my brother and sister have both been premies for 25 years, and my article will probably focus more on the twists and turns of my relationship with my siblings, Maharaji-wise, than it will on Maharaji per se. But I would like the chance to talk to/correspond directly with any of you--OP, JW, Jim, Chris, Deena, Bill Cooper, Chris, etc.--who are interested. Those who are, please send me your email addresses and/or phone numbers.My email address is kba@aol.com. Thanks. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Apr 22, 1997 at 17:42:54 (EDT)
Poster: JW Email: To: Kurt Andersen Subject: Re: I'm Writing a Piece Message: Given your last name, and your premie brother and sister, I'm guessing that your sister is Erica Andersen (from Omaha, Nebraska) and your brother's name, oh that middle age again, I can't recall, but I recall he was a musician. I knew both of them pretty well, but it has been a long time since I have seen either one of them. Am I right? What are they dong now? Interesting that you are doing the article. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Apr 22, 1997 at 19:42:31 (EDT)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Kurt Andersen Subject: Re: I'm Writing a Piece Message: Sure. What could be cooler than a good, rich New Yorker article on this juicy bit of modern Americana? Great story and I'd be happy to assist. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Apr 22, 1997 at 20:59:09 (EDT)
Poster: Kurt Andersen Email: To: JW Subject: Re: I'm Writing a Piece Message: That's right, my sister and brother are Erika and David. Both are married, both have children, both are happy and productive. (David is still a terrific musician.) If you're willing, I await an email address or phone number so we can communicate directly and privately about your (and your family's) experiences with Maharaji. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Apr 22, 1997 at 21:01:06 (EDT)
Poster: Kurt Andersen Email: To: Jim Subject: Re: I'm Writing a Piece Message: Great. I'll email you tomorrow at heller@islandnet.com--right? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Apr 22, 1997 at 22:22:25 (EDT)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Kurt Andersen Subject: Re: I'm Writing a Piece Message: Okie dokie Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 24, 1997 at 00:27:28 (EDT)
Poster: Bill Email: To: Kurt Andersen Subject: Re: I'm Writing a Piece Message: Why dont you do a story on the wireless industries activities? they are embarking on a tidal wave of tower installations everywhere across the country. The new telecommunications act contains a part that grants microwave senders the ok to install as many towers in a state as they want and states cant do a thing about it. In forbes magazine in the ASAP editions, George Gilder writes the leading edge reports read widely by virtually all the CEO's of all the high tech companies. all high tech investors read Gilder. Unfortunatly, he proclaims the coming age of fiber optics and wireless without knowing about the long and real effects microwaves have on people. I can provide you with reams of data. When the Tele. Act was in congress, Gilder, and mainly the Tofflers talked to Newt. Newt is in love with the Tofflers. They really had no problem lobbying on behalf their vision of the -MICROCOSM- . Al Gore, who might have been reachable about this subject, was all aglow because of his High Tech orientation. This and the licencing of 40 gigawatts of bandwidth by the FCC has put us in the position of , well, you pick the adjetive. We are going to all be in a real soup of microwaves and even though these are non-ionizing microwaves, there is a tremendous body of reports and studies that prove the damage this stuff does do. I read the New yorker and I wonder if they will print a maharaji piece, but a timely article on this subject will get you respect as an investigative journalist and you will be quoted and you will be allowed to write a lengthy piece which I assume means more money for you. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 24, 1997 at 11:24:59 (EDT)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Bill Subject: Re: I'm Writing a Piece Message: Bill, time for you to start your own web page. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Apr 22, 1997 at 16:05:30 (EDT)
Poster: Allen Ginsberg Email: To: Everyone Subject: Elephant in the Meditation Hall Message: The following speaks directly to the guru problem: Elephant in the Meditation Hall Yes all the spiritual groups scandal the shrine room What about San Francisco Roshi & the board director's wife What about high living limousine expense accounts in Moscow? What about the late Rajineesh & poisoned gefilte fish in Oregon? What's hiding underneath Rajineeshis' Orange skullcaps? Brains? Then old L.A. Mountain Roshi even tap'd his young girls and East Coast Roshi's semen dribbled from Hawaii to the broom closets of the Catskills Maezumi Roshi caused grief his senseis' hearts wrung out with midnight sake &beer Later he thanked them for A.A. Veteran Zenmaster with motorcycle & community farm chorale felt up little boys & a big guy too, tough as nails Remember a strange Mongolian Russian fruitcake Lama in Polk Gulch Bay Area? Vajracharya Trungpa! Don't mention the naked poet at the Halloween Party! And the whispered transmission regent died of AIDS (disciple a straight guy sick they say) Marxists were right, religion the people's opium! But who're they to talk lookit Mao a Marxist his picture on every Chinesewall & Little Red Book wherefore everyone stood up bedtime nites reciting his dread slogans? They still had pictures of Stalin on truckcab windows in Gori 1985 a scandal! And New Left carried psychedelic pictures of Mao, Che Guevara & Castro up and down Empire State's stairways A scandal of the sixties! And marvelous atheist Khmer Rouge read Marx Sartre& Erich Fromm, how many'd they murder with religious good intentions? What US President hasn't sponsored war, Lumumba's assassination, an H-bomb, trillion dollar Savings & loan mistakes? Scandals! taxpayers gotta subsidize Banks! Now we gotta digest Plutonium? how evacuate CIA? Scandal hundreds homeless under Brooklyn Bridge freezing Xmas & New Years Eve! Millions homeless in America! Who'll gotta pay for 500,000 U.S.boys & girls visiting Arabian Deserts? Who'll cough up billions for Iraq War to save a President's face? Twelve Billion dollars mickeymouse the year's drug wars? El Salvador, Honduras, Guatemala we paid death squads for decades Nobody does anything right! Gods, Popes, Mullahs, Communists, Poets, Financiers! My own life, scandal! lazy bum! secondhand royal scarlet ties & Yves St. Laurent Salvation Army blazers How many boys let me caress their thighs! How many girls cursed my cold beard? I better commit suicide! That wouldn't work either, it'll be a beatnik scandal after Cassady's railroad track death, Joan Burroughs' bullet in head, Orlovosky sane in Bellvue 1st Ave., Kerouac's liver collapse & ruptured esophagus! Trapped in living nightmare, I made a big mistake I got born, The world came out of a black hole, whole universe a scandal, illusion, everyone deluded, a cosmic elephant in the meditation planet, George the IIIrd, Rasputin, Stalin, Warren Harding, Herbert Hoover, Hitler, the 13th Dalai Lama's Regent, Vice President Agnew, Ronald Reagan delayed hostage release till the Elephant party's Inauguration Day George Bush peddaled coke for the contras in streetcorner banks downtown Panama City! Scandals in Buddhafields? big mistakes in Hemispheres, on moons, Black Holes everywhere! Anyway, the national debt'll approach 4 trillion any day say the homeless on Tompkins Square.
Allen Ginsberg
July12,1990
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Date: Tues, Apr 22, 1997 at 16:10:42 (EDT)
Poster: Bobby Email: To: everyone Subject: Re: Elephant in the Meditation Hall Message: I hope you guys read this -- this speaks strongly to me..... anyone else comprende? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Apr 22, 1997 at 16:28:32 (EDT)
Poster: op Email: To: Bobby Subject: Re: Elephant in the Meditation Hall Message: Allen Ginsberg - a buddhist till the end. I wonder if he did commit suicide. In the late 60s, the age of love power and LSD, Allen Ginsberg came over to my apartment when I had someone who had downed 1,000 micrograms in a sugar cube and was trying to remove his ego, bit by bit. He'd removed his neck chains and jewelry, he'd removed all of his clothing, he'd left his daily personality piled somewhere in a corner of my Lower East side digs, but when he tried to remove his body - by jumping out the window, or any other means - I got scared and called Allen, who lived about 6 blocks away. Ginsberg chanted OM for about 1/2 an hour, with infinite patience, and the tripper finally calmed down. I was very impressed. But I also knew other friends of Ginsberg's - in fact had a mad crush on his lover for a while - and knew him in other situations (peace marches, hippy discotheques in England, etc.) and guess what?? Ginsberg was a human being, just like you and me. And not of the most humanitarian variety, most of the time. Very good with words. Probably one of the best poets the USA has spawned. But he did have his own religious agenda. And I really don't think he's a prophet. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Apr 22, 1997 at 16:38:00 (EDT)
Poster: Bobby Email: To: op Subject: Re: Elephant in the Meditation Hall Message: Ginsberg died only a few weeks ago. Yes he was a buddhist and a strong spiritual investigator. Parts of his diaries of hanging out in India circa 62 published under *Indian Journals* is strongly inspirational to me. to me he's a prophet prophets are humans Ginsberg never denied his faults or his humanity he was very kind I admire him for his willingness to speak all aspects of his personal life, to put it all out there in this way, he has been an inspiration to many Ram Dass is like that
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Date: Tues, Apr 22, 1997 at 16:47:56 (EDT)
Poster: op Email: To: Bobby Subject: Re: Elephant in the Meditation Hall Message: I didn't mean to put him down - I was as sorry for his rather sudden death as anyone. I only meant that he knew about some things, not about others; that he was right about some things, wrong about others; that he was a saint in some situations, a bastard jerk in others. Just like the rest of us. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Apr 22, 1997 at 16:56:51 (EDT)
Poster: bobby Email: To: op Subject: Re: Elephant in the Meditation Hall Message: I agree. And I love him and miss his presence on earth. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Apr 22, 1997 at 22:23:14 (EDT)
Poster: op Email: To: bobby Subject: Re: Elephant in the Meditation Hall Message: So maybe in the future we can share some stories about Ginsberg - sounds like we might have some common ground there too. Just for the record: My parents were semi-beatniks, so I had a lot of exposure to that whole generation when I was growing up. My father is/was (still alive, but not so productive) an erstwhile writer. I was brought up on the Living Theater and French movies. I think the first Hollywood movie I saw was The Shaggy Dog, when I was 12. Spent my adolsecence at peace
marches and civil rights rallies - which is where I met Ginsberg.
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Date: Wed, Apr 23, 1997 at 10:15:42 (EDT)
Poster: bobby Email: To: op Subject: Re: Elephant in the Meditation Hall Message: I used to feel guilty for my intense interest in Ginsberg and the Beats. In considering the 'pure' of ideals of knowledge and maharaji, my inner censor, with the help of mental structures of fellow premies, thought Ginsberg's pomes and expressions to be impure and heretical. Nevertheless, I thoroughly enjoyed and was greatly inspired by Ginsberg, even in the ashram. I've since left most of the guilt structures behind. In 1973 and 74 I was a New York City ashram resident. I worked at Divine Sales on 2nd Avenue, just below St. Mark's Place. After awhile I got the Divine Service guys to build me a bookshop in the basement behind the store where I hung out in my private office in the back. Got some *great* books from premie donations. I got to read the beats, Joseph Campbell and many others. All kinds of village characters would show up in my bookstore and we would have some great times hanging out. At one time, I held weekly 'classes' in the bookstore open
to the public. My campadre Raymond and I gave an astrology class.
Jagdeo showed up one week for a low-keyed talk.
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Date: Wed, Apr 23, 1997 at 23:51:00 (EDT)
Poster: Bill Email: To: Bobby Subject: Re: Elephant in the Meditation Hall Message: Thats an interesting poem and what you had to say. but ram dass sounds steady and blah when he speaks on the tapes ive heard. Maybe he is more lively in front of an audience. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 24, 1997 at 10:05:09 (EDT)
Poster: Bobby Email: To: Bill Subject: Re: Elephant in the Meditation Hall Message: To me Ram Dass is not 'blah' at all. I know that he has channelled his talks to be a little more mainstream, but perhaps that's the way he sees to reach more people. In 1969, while in Cambridge Mass I met a student of his who had dropped out of Harvard to get into the spirituality that Ram Dass was teaching at the time. I ended up staying at his house, actually moving in for a time, with a couple of other hippies. Following my near-death and visions, in the period where I felt really drained and enervated on many levels, in spring of 1971, *Be Here Now* came out. I really didn't know what to expect when I got the book, but I found myself deeply engaged, drinking deeply of the Ram Dass' personal accounts, his Hindu oriented teachings and spiritual expressions. I couldn't put the book down and read it cover-to-cover within a day. The NDE and visions I had had were extraordinarily powerful. I didn't know what to do with them. At that point in my life I had no context. The closest my experiences came to anything I had read were myths, fairy tales and some of the 'high fantasy' stories like those of Lord Dunsany, Lindsay, Tolkein and some of Lovecraft. What particularly struck me in Be Here Now was the idea of finding one's guru. Ram Dass' said that when a person was ready, his guru would show up. Ram Dass said that often a guru would show up in physical form, but sometimes the guru was unmanifest. I decided to stop eating meat, drinking alcohol and smoking cigarettes with the idea of making steps towards spiritual purification. I checked out Satchitananada and maybe a few others and then in September, heard some premies (Ken, John B., and Suzy W. talking about Maharaji's immanent arrival in NYC. I hitchhiked into NYC from New Jersey and helped prepare for his arrival. A bunch of us went out to the airport to meet MJ as he disembarked for the first time in New York. At least half of us were barefoot and in saris and dhotis (Indian costume) waving incense. In India, 1971, at Ram Lila ground, I heard that Ram Dass was in town at a local hotel in Delhi right on Connaught Circus. I went to visit. I sat with Ram Dass for awhile on his third floor balcony overlooking the circle. I spoke with him about my visionary experiences. He shared with me the experiences of his brother who had 'lost it'. The perspective that Ram Dass' offered as to what I had experienced remains with me today and serves as a most appropriate experiential metaphor. That is that I had been in effect blasted by spirit. I had experienced the full force of spirit all at once and, being quite unprepared, was literally ungrounded. It has been my work of the past almost 30 years to integrate and come to terms with the spiritual energies that opened up in me. At various times over the years I have touched base with Ram
Dass, attending lectures and making brief but intimate contact.
A
month or two ago Ram Dass had a stroke. He is currently in
rehab,
relearning control of some of the physiological functions we
take
for granted like speech and communication. It seems he is
spiritually healthy. In my mind, this is actually what really
matters.
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Date: Thurs, Apr 24, 1997 at 16:29:50 (EDT)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Bobby Subject: Re: Elephant in the Meditation Hall Message: How bout the dwarves, mermaids and fairy people in the Right Use of Will? How can you have a complete cosmology without them? Bobby, so many of us were taken by the same spiritual shit back then. We dideicated our lives to the living lord, for christ's sake. What does it take? But you, friend, unlike most, have kept the faith in a singular
fashion. That means that either you're resisting growth or
we've not protected the eternal flame. Do you agree with me so far?
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