I imagine that if you weren't so hasty and answered JW's question, he might answer yours. Now I'm not justifying JW not simply answering you right out of the gate. We all talk this way -- you ask someone something and maybe you discuss the question a bit before you get down to actually receiving an answer. The etiquette isn't exactly clear cut. When does someone have to finally bite the bullet and answer the fucking question? I don't know. I guess it's a common sense catch all thing.

In any event, Mili, I hope you see a bit more what it's like from 'this side.' Don't you feel a little closure b/c I gave you a driect response? Now would you like to review all of our former correspon`ence and see whether you've treated me to the same courtesies? I think you'll have to agree you haven't.

I do owe you one answer. No, I'm not the 'kind of person' you profiled here last week. I don't think so anyway.
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The parallels between Jesus and Maharaji (and their respective movements/anti-movements) are striking, though, aren't they? You might call me just a brainwashed premie, but I sincerely do think those two 'cult leaders' are talking the same language.
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You're right. Maharaji's a lot like Jesus I'm sure. But then so is anyone who claims to be god incarnate. As for a movement against Maharaji -- you have to be fair here Mili. All we're really trying to do is to get him to deal with his own public record. Can you honestly call that a movement agaisnt him? I don't think so. After all, maybe he's got some justification for everything.

There is indeed a movement to hold him accountable and to not accept him on his own terms. How can you fault that?
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My son believes in Jesus and he feels that Maharaji is nothing like Jesus. I, on the other hand can make some pretty good comparisons....which doesn't say much for my opinion of what went on 2000 years ago when people followed him.

Yes Jim, I agree....Pied Piper!
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This rings a bell with me.

On the' Inward Self' page I wrote that this Knowledge' supposedly comes from a single living Perfect Master - A concept hungrily accepted by people eager to embrace the notion of the re-appearance of someone resembling the beloved figurehead of the religion of their upbringing.'

For me this was Jesus. My mother told me, when I was a child, that Jesus was always looking after me. I believed her. We prayed together before bedtime and I developed a deep love in my heart for my image of Jesus. I saw in Jesus (like God) a bigger version of my parents. A bigger more potent source of the love I knew from them. ie. 'You are my Mother, You are my Father etc.etc.' The principle being that to a fish, God is a bigger Fish. I always trusted in God and in his smaller (but still invisible) version, Jesus.

As I got older my childhood image of Jesus stayed close to my heart but was not as great a 'comfort' to me in the hustle and bustle of the world into which I had been launched. My eventual aspirations to find the real God led me through much soul searching, reading, praying etc. and to cut a long story short I ended up like many people at the time, drying to gain access to inner experiences and the true vision through the likes of mescaline and LSD.

After this period I experienced a terrible 'Dark night of the soul' and desperately begged God to reveal himself once and for all and to 'not let me be deluded under any circumstances please.' I was scared of the false Prophets that the Bible warns of and felt lost and adrift in a world of confusion. I wanted to find God and dedicate my life to serving Truth. I didn't have a clue what to expect as an answer to my prayer. Also at this time I saw (when lying in bed at school in the pitch dark) a brilliant white light in my head. I remember a 'room of light' and a feeling of bliss. This experience has often been accessible to me when I really try to see it. I do consider that it is possibly a distinct experience from the kaleidoscopic 'neural light shows' or patterns that I have enjoyed under the influence of drugs or otherwise. Whether it is NDE, God or otherwise I would not want to venture.

Around this same time I read 'The gospel of Sri Ramakrishna' whose words resonated deeply within me . He spoke of his initiation and of how (when he first meditated) his yearning automatically brought into his mind the beloved vision, from his youth, of the 'Divine Mother'. (like Jesus was for my beloved and trusted, imagined Saviour). He added that with the sword of discrimination he clove the image (the concept) in two, in order to pass into the higher formless reality. Samahdi. His guru naturally had embedded a piece of glass into his forehead to facilitate his concentration upon the area of the third eye.

Thus when I went to see Maharaji in 1974 in Copenhagen I was immediately considering the possibility that he was the Lord returned and patiently awaited initiation. I was (like Deenas son I imagine) rather scared that he may not be 'True' and that he may be a dreaded 'false prophet'. All I had to rely on was my sincerity. I had prayed from my heart to be shown the way, so what harm could I come do. I would be protected. I had done my best. i approached with the heart of a child.

Eventually I left everything to serve him. I often remembered Biblical stories of Jesus' disciples and considered myself to be fortunate to now be, myself, a disciple of the living Lord.

My current disillusionment stems , not from Maharaji being un-Christlike, but from the unnecessary suffering that I was put through and the dawning suspicions that Maharaji was as fallible as you or I. Also I felt that Maharaji was possibly deluded and deluding others. This judgement doesn't make him the Devil in my mind either. Those dualistic concepts of ultimate Good and Evil make no sense to me. Therefore, whether or not he is like Jesus neither impresses or alarms me. I have not lost the ability to meditate and pray sincerely for a truer vision of Life by rejecting his authority. I can navigate the world without fear and to the best of my ability. I am not guiltily feeling that I owe allegiance or gratitude to Maharaji.

I agree that the techniques of meditation are not common knowledge in today's world and that people may possibly benefit by knowing them. That is another story. Maybe they needn't be so preciously secret. I remain unconvinced , from the way that Maharaji's teaches them, that the end justifies the means, in his case. Neither have I any no proof that Maharaji is the source of my experiences. I have assumed that for too long.

What really alerted me to the dangers of Maharaji's approach was the realisation that he was using and feeding fear into people in order to get what he wanted. His purported altruistic vision and noble motivation is not entirely believable to me under the circumstances. (maybe he just likes flying!) He also appears to enjoy his power over people rather immoderately.

If the theory that 'changing the world by changing peoples hearts' holds true (and many argue that he has already brought peace to the world because of the positive experiences of relatively few) then he has demonstratively failed because of the condition of my heart. (which has had a narrow escape from disaster)

I think that the 'fire in my heart' has not been so healthily fed. It feels more as if someone chucked petrol on it and the vesulting conflagration left it in grave danger of burning itself out violently and prematurely..

Oh .. and by the way, Mili. Maharaji's edict is clearly not 'Love God First' It is love the Guru first - (guru is greater than God remember). I don't look upon Jesus or Maharaji as being good or bad. I don't know ebout that. All I know is the bad effects my association with the latter has brought. No, that is not to say that there was no good either. Another thing. Having upwardly mobile, 'Young urban professional' Yuppie aspirations may in some way describe me; but I am not ashamed of it. My materialistic leg is still considerably shorter than the other spiritual one. So I still limp through the world. Are you too young a premie to remember that Satsang Maharaji gave? Ah well..
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Old Premie...There are 2 ways I react to this site.

1: Immediately, with brevity and mistakes.

2: Pondering over the issues at length and then writing into a word processor with due care and attention to intelligibility, grammar etc and..Gasp..'Cutting and Pasting' whatever next!.

Surely it's obvious that this last post of mine is a perfect example of the latter?

Regarding: Is that how you treated the whole experience of being a premie?

How do you mean? Do you think I missed something? ....Do you think that for All those daily meditations..and yes, All Nighters too, I was just 'Cutting and Pasting'. What a dreamy idiot I must be in your eyes.

No.Enough is enough. Please listen carefully and let me tell you.

I was a happy, well-balanced, talented, educated, loving and sincere child who appreciated the gift of life that I had been given, and humbly aspired to fulfil my purpose through serving Maharaji who I truly believed would care for me as my Master.

Maharaji then proceeded to convince and coerce me, at a vulnerable time in my life, with the medieval religion that he preached. He then encarcerated me in his ashram for years and took everything I had to offer materially and spiritually. My life was, and remains, my most precious gift and I never needed Maharaji or anyone else to remind me. I knew that from my childhood without any third party claiming to be the source of my inspiration or preaching to me about what I gratitude I owed them.

I had so much to give in my life.Is it surprising that I felt disillusioned when at age 25 I found myself without a job or career,no family, my father dead, Maharaji laughing all the way to the bank, and feeling all the frustration of a having had my life's potential wasted? Yet there I was still polishing his brothers Lambourghini for the nth time.

Yes, I carried on practising Maharaji's prescription to the letter, giving him the benefit of the doubt. Yes I have seen him all over the world many many times. I have been a fully paid up member of the Maharaji travel club.

Since leaving the ashram I have been luckier than some. I have had the common sense and guts (apparently lacking in many premies) to be mercilessly conscientious and to look in the mirror to see what has truly become of my life. It has been enormously hard to face the reality, shake off the complacency and the anaesthetic denial and continue with hope and trust in Life. My suspicions and conclusions about the reality of Maharaji and the whole Guru, Master business have come gradually, over many years, as a result of using my common sense and discrimination whilst practising Maharaji's prescription to the letter with good faith.

Since leaving the ashram many premies have suffered terrible difficulties in trying to get going on their own. I have carved out for myself and my newly acquired family, what some would consider to be an enviable career and lifestyle. But I will always be acutely aware of how much more I could have achieved had I not been for so long sidetracked by dhe hypnotic delusions put upon me by Maharaji's world. If I have learned anything of value through all this it is to never entertain intimidation or allow my naturally better judgement to be suppressed by 'group think' or the suggestions of another.

I have discovered that Maharaji's philosophy is irrefutably and essentially that of the Radhasoami religion, repackaged and exported with some success. All this zealous talk of the Millenium, Peace on earth etc. is certainly a rivetting distraction for simpletons, but it does not help to clarify or illustrate what has or is currently going on.

Maharaji is a successful salesman for, at first, the 'techniques of meditation' (for which he unashamedly takes all the credit and insinuates is solely available through him). He then hits you with the devotional talk, he 'collects devotion', gratitude. He gets you hooked on videos and events to keep you involved and focused on him as the source.

I can honestly say that the period of my life when I had the most wonderful experiences in meditation was just after I was shown the techniques (aged 17) and I returned to my parents beautifully peaceful country home to practice. A good deal of the inner peace I experienced then was the relief that I felt as a direct result of being out of the repressive atmosphere of indoctrination (satsang,sevice etc.) which existed in the town where I had been told to go and live in, to be an aspirant.

From then on it was downhill all the way. I could not resist Maharaji's constant and inescapable demands for respect, love, devotion and surrender.

Have you noticed how dim these memories are becoming. They are being erased and replaced by the sinister campaign of revisionism that Maharaji and his automaton premies are conducting..with a worrying degree of success.

The louder that those hypocritic and brainwashed premies (like Mili) shout, the more that our actual memories, in all their poignancy, are surreptitiously deleted. One by one. They are not even replaced (Blade-Runner style) with happy ones. There is just a blank - and there remains only the awakening and clamourous billboard proclamations of Maharaji's new government which is 'so' reformed and full of hope and 'Ra Ra' promise. The smiley cheerleaders of the new regime swing opiate incense in the direction of the rapt and innocent new audience, who are soon themselves to become the unwary prey of the 'Pied Piper of our time'. [sorry - just couldn't resist]
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- Mili
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Maharaji epitomized the new-age model of abandonment of self-interest. If life isn't about making a graceful leap off the high-wire into the safety net of love, but instead requires rapt attention to how we're swinging, Maharaji sure didn't do us any favours. I know I'm still imbued with a smirky sense of nihilism, that premie 'fuck you' attitude to the world. Luckily, the work I do involves people with concrete, pressing problems. Normally, I end up caring enough about them that I transcend my lingering transcendance. But I don't fool myself. Like an exotic bug one picks up on safari, Maharaji's strain of defeatism lingers.

I don't know if I agree about the effects that boors like Mili, know-nothings like Chris or polyannas like OP have on our memories. All it takes are a few minutes with some old publication and they flood back in spades.
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When I spoke with Mike at INFO-CULT he explained that alot of the ex- premies that call him haven't been involved for years but it still is an unresolved part of their lives. He said it is common to experience anxiety, anger, guilt, depression, flashbacks from certain triggers etc. He talked about most everyone feeling like a child in a candy store, when they leave an authority figure in their lives. He said the anger felt is empowering after being manipulated and abused.

Personally, I feel it takes tremendous courage to leave MJ. I have nothing but the utmost respect for someone who can break away. And as far as people like OP? Well, she has joined the ranks of Mili and Chris....I won't waste my time any longer reading her posts or responding to them. I'm here to read people like yourself and to express myself as honestly as I can so I can put all of what has happened in the past 23 years in perspective.

I live with a premie. I can not escape from MJ because he is still in my face. I choose this right now because my son wants his family to stay together. As relieved as he was that I left MJ and as much as he wished his father would too, it is more important to him that he is not a divorced kid. His biological Dad has never been very involved with him until this year. He was 2 1/2 when my first marriage ended because of my ex's infidelities.. He loves his step father. He loves me. For this I am making tremendous effort to not judge my husband since he is not outrightly choosing MJ over us. If he was he would have kicked us out a few months back when he felt we were trying to deprogram him, ( which was not the case at all ). He has always been frightened of deprogramming. There were some stories floating around the ashram that someone almost or did (?) kill themselves because there life was so empty after. Another story he heard was that a premie they tried to deprogram could not be no matter what they did. Of course this was because you can't be since this is the TRUTH. My husband has several times told me he has tried to leave before and it was very empty. What he does not realize is that depression is normal, I mean he was 20 when he got involved and barely knew himself yet. It is like starting all over again. But I've never shared that with him. I just wish people like you ANON and JW and Jim could sit around with him and in a caring way share your stories. But who am I kidding, as if that will ever happen....he'd just think we were trying to deprogram him.

I didn't mean to go on so long. I really just wanted to thank you ANON for sharing again. I feel that because I married an ashram premie as soon as the ashram's were closed in '82 that in a sense we created our own ashram life of devotion and loving MJ not each other. I look forward to the day where the fallout will be over. Maybe that will mean that after my son has left home I may choose to not live with a premie any longer. I don't know. Maybe by then it won't make any difference whether I do. If I was financially independent (because I have Lupus and can't work fulltime). I'd probably separate for a while now just to find out what is best. Oh for the downpour of the holy buck!!!!
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Yes, I have to agree too. I wish that some really concrete results come from this site. By that I mean there are some really significant testimonies written by the participants of this forum. What these participants write helps to reveal the truth. I would hate, just hate to be part of a lynch mob that wanted only retribution for GMJs past endeavors. That is just as bad as wanting to defend him blindly.

I suppose what I am really advocating is truth & justice.

Anything that lets the individual read both sides of the arguement is to me satsong....the truth as best as we can state it.

I am hungry to know more about the injustices that plauge(d) GMJ organizations. I want to read what his defenders have to say as well. I have known about this site for less than a month. It was only the mass suicide in CA that reminded me of my past life as a premie. So much did I see old similarities in the faces of those devotees that I had to seek out my old 'cult'. Now that I have found premies & ex Premies who debate issues I finally feel a sense of closure. Facts are now coming out with lighting speed. Issues that were brought out in 'SCARED JOURNEYS' can now be addressed in minutes.

I think there is a real good chance that this site could become THE repository of information relating to GMJ both past & present. And that is something that many people will use for decades to come.

Milli this is what I think it is all about!
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Yes Matt, I agree, and a strange way Mili, Chris and OP make the case for MJ being the leader of a cult all the more obvious with their posts on this forum. I see it as a warning that is out there for everyone to read....that for those who come upon this site to heed that it is not just a simple thing of being invited to see a video of someone who speaks to your heart. There is alot more to this and all I have ever advocated is that people be properly informed so their choice is a well educated one. The people who were involved with Heaven's Gate blew me away too...I had just left on my own but watching those videos reminded me so much of the man I married. And that was friightening. The history of that cult was just as deceptive as any cult. According to Mike at INFO-CULT he had them under a different name so at the time of the suicides he didn't immediately make the connection. And the fact that like MJ with his misson to bring world peace changed over the years , Do and T's waiting for ships that didn't come at the time predicted changed to needing to leave their bodies to enter the ship. I saw so many similarities it was amazing to me considering that it was so completely different. Decades to come...that is a comforting thought Matt, thanks.
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My main question is -- why did he do that? Satsang was such a major, if not THE major, part of the trip when I was involved-- and I was usually much more 'inspired' by what other premies said in satsang, because it was at least somewhat relevent to my then restricted life, than by what Guru Maharaj Ji said, which I found pretty simplistic, incoherent and repetitive.

I was like anon said, in that after a while it became so numbingly boring that I just sort of let it waft over me and sort of zoned out. I think that's what many people did/do, except now, apparently, GMJ doesn't care whether you ever listen to him and might actually prefer that you not listen to anyone else.

Any comments on this?
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- It appears to me that the drawback of this highly unregulated format for M. was that he may not have liked the, 'truth', that old Sat Sang was possibly beginning to lead folks to.

- The fact that there are no longer any officially sanctioned community Sat Sangs, other than M.s monotonous videos to me is a step in totally the wrong direction for M.. OP may say that M. is loosening his reins over premies, but this particular 'edict' seems to me to be a tightening of the reins.

- Scott
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I too loved satsang - it gave me a chance to share a lot of the personal experiences I had. I found out later that not everyone found them as enlightening as I had. Some did, some didn't.

A few years ago, Maharaji cut out service. He left all the instructors jobless for a while. I was sitting next to Charananand when Maharaji announced that. He grabbed my hand and I felt his utter surprise and tension when Maharaji said it.

There were a lot of people who left then. Service was their life blood - they were dried up without it. A lot of people stuck it out. I felt like, here comes another stage, another period of transition. I'm one of those suckers that can't say no to anything that will make me feel useful, so I was as devastated as anyone.

Now here comes what you might consider a sick analogy: When you're constipated, don't keep eating pasta and chocolate and peanut butter. Fast. Drink liquids.

The whole system around Maharaji had become entangled in red tape again (remember when he dissolved DLM? and why? - or is that going to be the next thread?). It was time to simplify.

In my life, that became a time for introspection. I had concentrated so much on service that I lost a lot of my inner connection. (I don't care how you define inner connection.)

About three years later, Maharaji reinstated service, on a new level. There's a conscious attempt, constantly, to avoid the pitfalls of the past. I won't say things are perfect - I mentioned some of the thorny characters in a previous post - but I keep remembering that this is not a game of make believe, all this stuff. It's really my life and I have to live every moment of it consciously.

Perhaps the same thing will happen with satsang. I don't know. I can see M's reasons for not wanting to open floodgates at this point. And, after all, he is the teacher, if you're in this class. (If you're not, or if you're in the hallway or playing hookey, that's that - no reason to berate those who ARE in the class.)

So the reasons for not having others give satsang - I think I've stated them before, but to reiterate:

- some people (no, Jim, not all) get into recounting heavy mystical experiences that can be interpreted as the way one HAS to experience Knowledge or you're not doing it right (causing feelings of inadequacy in those that don't, giving delusional experience in those prone to imagine their way through their practice time, etc.)

- if the doorway is open to some, shouldn't it be open to all? and then we're back to satsang being used as therapy, as networking, as a mating call. (Don't tell me it didn't happen - we all know it did, even, as Jim has pointed out, with some of the instructors.)

So perhaps one day, with a bit MORE consciousness, the drums of satsang will get beaten loudly once again by all. But in the meantime, I don't know which videos you've been watching, but they're not all honey and potato starch. There's a little fire and brimstone in there, too.
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How about all that bullshit about the speed of sound and 'mach 5' or whatever? For those who weren't there, Maharaji used that dangerous metaphor all the time in the early 70s. His idea was that the worse your mind was getting you, the harder life was, the better. It was all a sign that you were approaching the realm of post-mind bliss. Shaking? Fly faster!!

But how, pray tell, does Maharaji explain this major roadwork to the eternal path? The path that supposedly was ageless and unchangeable? Was THAT bullshit too?

Let's say one gave Maharaji all the benefit of the doubt once could possibly muster. All of it. One eagerly awaits his next command. No problemo, senor commondante!

So, then Maharaji has another meeting. This time he says satsang's a go again. Would it be untoward for someone at the 'meeting' to ask him for how long? I mean aren't we at the stage where any reasonable premie would have to consider the fact that Maharaji keeps changing this thing and maybe he STILL doesn't have it right?

And, if that's the case, that one finds themself second-guessing Maharaji, would you then suggest tah they stifle their comments? Is that the proper approach?

See, it seems unavoidable that if Gurucharanand was sitting there when Maharaji kept changing things, eventually, Gurucharanand's going to want some input. Like riding with a lost taxi driver. Sooner or later, you get involved in trying to figure out where to turn next.

Well, that process if fine for us regular folk. But it sure doesn't leave your fat little fraud artist (I need to say that every once in a while, you understand) much room for being the Supremest Lord in human form, does it? Perfect Master? Ha! How about 'client'?
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Secondly, aside from your conjectures about why GMJ abolished satsang, what did GMJ actually say were the reasons he did it? Or did he ever say?
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OP says premies still engage in 'conversation,' but that was always the case. As long as those conversations are not 'official' satsang, the damage they can cause to GMJ, because people might actually stumble on what is really happening to them and how they have been duped, is limited.
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People were hoping, people were praying, yet Maharaji was the only one who was CERTAIN that a better future was in store. Not in the next lifetime, but SOON. I don't understand how come he was so sure of it - perhaps he really does have some connections up there, maybe he even pulled a few strings himself. Just on a physical level, his incessant travels around the world bringing people of different age, race and background together in harmony surely contributed to it. And it came to pass. No one thinks that global war is a serious possibility anymore. Yes, there are local conflicts flaming up, and problems of famine and disturbances of the eco-system, but this is just a mop-up job for the United Nations in my opinion. The danger of the big war is behind us - people are talking, nations are talking. There is no going back. In a few years, we WILL celebrate the Millennium. In his humbleness, Maharaji will probably never say, 'See, I told you so!'.
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People were hoping, people were praying, yet Maharaji was the only one who was CERTAIN that a better future was in store. Not in the next lifetime, but SOON. I don't understand how come he was so sure of it - perhaps he really does have some connections up there, maybe he even pulled a few strings himself. Just on a physical level, his incessant travels around the world bringing people of different age, race and background together in harmony surely contributed to it. And it came to pass. No one thinks that global war is a serious possibility anymore. Yes, there are local conflicts flaming up, and problems of famine and disturbances of the eco-system, but this is just a mop-up job for the United Nations in my opinion. The danger of the big war is behind us - people are talking, nations are talking. There is no going back. In a few years, we WILL celebrate the Millennium. In his humbleness, Maharaji will probably never say, 'See, I told you so!'.

Mili, if you are going to make things up, at least do so in a way that cannot be so easily checked. WWI,WWII and the Korean war we long over by 1973 and the missles that were in Cuba that were 'pointing at the USA' had been removed 11 years earlier in 1962. Remember the Cuban Missle Crisis? But then given your logic and delight in calling people scatological names, maybe you are really only 12 and weren't around for that. But you do take history in junior high school,don't you?

As for GMJ being so optomistic about the future in 1973, I heard him say at a program in 1983 that nuclear war was 'imminent' at that time. What happened? Did things go downhill after his affival in the West such that nuclear went from being possible to being imminent in 10 short years?

I Also think many people would disagree with you that the world is a whole lot better now than it was before GMJ arrived, what with overpopulation, starvation, multiple wars, ethnic cleansing, environmental devestation, AIDS, and economic disparity, all of which have gotten a lot worse since GMJ arrived. Hmmm. Well, maybe he still has a couple of years before the Millenium arrives (1973 was just play-acting) and we should keep our eyes open to watch him finally bring peace to this world like he promised all those years ago.
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Seems to me now that both he and his dad were incredably arrogant and self-rightous. There contentment and BLISS with experiencing the TRUTH because of their CONSCIOUSNESS seemed and also seems to include the need to express their obvious distaste, despite the fact you can come to knowledge as a Christian etc. dead masters just won't do it. And further more all the religious acts people EXPERIENCE are merely acts, not experiences of devotion and love from TRUTH because that cannot be obtained from RITUALS etc.. Faith is not a word used commonly by MJ.. But faith is all this it is. The devote Jew, Moslem etc. has just as much chance as experiencing truth consciousness and bliss as any premie and that is without a living master to boot!

Tell me that SATSANG, SERVICE AND MEDITATION as it once was known and now KEEPING IN TOUCH (satsang thru videos or in person) PARTICAPTION (service) and GIVING KNOWLEDGE A FAIR CHANCE ( meditation) are not rituals and religious acts of faith in themselves. I mean without the master the techniques of knowledge won't worik according to MJ, they become just techniques. And service is an experience he says not just the actions (faith again) A video for one person can be a message for the heart and for another person go right over their heads it would seem eh? Rituals? Sticking your fingers in your ears and on your eyes or sticking your tongue in an almost impossibile position (yoga ritual) . How about swaying to music, clapping hands encouraging MJ to dance. Ritualistic. perhaps. Religious in appearance. MJ in undenably an object of premie worship and that in itself is a choice that people have. But to arrogantly deny the experience of a born again Christian as TRUTH or an agnostic's celebration of the moment called now without the label of GOD being experienced as all part of the MAYA or ILLUSION, well it just does not compute.

But Kabir,Tulsidas, Surdas etc. all had the same sentiment. Tulsidas in this quote:

Without the Master's guidence no one can cross the ocean of existence, not even the gods themselves.

Those who are devoted to the lotus feet of their Master are truly the ones who are blessed in this world.

I bow to the lotus feet of my Master., who is the merciful Lord in human form, His words are like sunbeams which instantly disperse darkness

or Kabir:

A person can never awaken from illusion without yearning for the Master

Nobody can achieve anything without the Maste's grace even if one makes endless effort.

or Nanak

Those who pay no heed to joy and sorrow have understood the true reality

and my favorite by Tulsidas of the holier than thou songs-

The heads that do not bow at the feet of the Master, the living Lord, are like the bitter pumpkins.

Now there is a nice thought....so loving and compassionate.

LISTEN GUYS DON'T LET PREMIES FOOL YOU INTO THINKING THAT ALL THAT STUFF FROM THE PAST IS JUST IN INDIA. WHY THEN WAS THIS PRINTED IN ENGLISH FOR ALL TO READ IN ONE OF HIS LATEST CD.'S. AND WHY ALL THE LONG VIDEOS OF REPEATED DARSHAN CLIPS BLENDED TOGETHER THAT ARE BEING RELEASED LATELY. AS I MENTIONED PREVIOUSLY DARSHAN HAS OCCURED RECENTLY AND IT WAS NOT JUST FOR INDIAN PREMIES. OP'S QUOTE OF WHAT MJ SAID ABOUT WEST AND DARSHAN MADE ME CHUCKLE. SINCE WHEN IN 30 YEARS HAS HE NOT CONTRADICTED HIMSELF OR CHANGED WHAT GOES ON....THAT IS STILL THE MOST COMMON PREMIE TALK- ABOUT HOW IT KEEPS THEM ON THEIR TOES BECAUSE HE MOVES SO QUICKLY AND CHANGES EVERYTHING CONSTANTLY. HOW BLISSED OUT PREMIES GET WHEN THEIR CONCEPTS ARE CONSTANTLY BLOWN.

Just couldn't sleep so I thought I'd share this. Incidently, the poems were such an inspiration to me...I mean MJ constantly refers to these guys and so how can a premie resist falling in love with what MJ loves....such beautifully written songs...now they are absolutely frightening in their obvious,well I won't say .
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- Thanks for the really neat web site. The Indian Bhaijon music was especially good.

- Just a little story for you about Sikhs from my Indian wanderings. In India the Sikhs seem to have gained a certain amount of begrudging respect from the other Indians. Their Indian state, Punjab, is noted as perhaps the wealthiest and most successful of all Indian states. Throughout the rest of India, the Sikhs have become a sort of merchant class, kind of like the Jews of India. While the poor of the other religious persuasions are commonly seen as beggars, (and I must have seen several thousand of them during my 2 months there) I never once saw a Wikh beggar. (You can always tell a Sikh in India by his distinctive turban, beard, and dagger.) Actually, there was one sort of unusual exception to this. Perhaps this story might shed a little insight into the regard Indians have of Sikhs.

- This little story took place in Benares at the small guest house where I had been staying for about a month. At the guest house meals were always prepared by Jossi, our cook. I also paid Jossi for some hindi lessons while I was there. The one time that Jossi ever approached me, begging for money was on the behalf of this Sikh fellow who he had met out on the street earlier one morning. This is what Jossi told me about the Sikh:

- Scott, I think you should help this man, I have never seen a Sikh beg before, and I think his need is real. He and his family were on their way through town and he tells me he was robbed at the train station. He asks very little. I remember looking at this poor Sikh man and realizing that he was truly ashamed to be in his position.

- In retrospect I regret this, but as I recall I probably only contributed a small sum to this man's plight.

- Ought I to condemn this man out of hand and all others who find some sort of spiritual solace in trusting in the protection of another, that is the protection of their Guru? Could I be guilty of the same type of simplistic reactionary behavior that some cultists are known to exhibit by dismissing all such movements as totally worthless? I am rethinking about this Mili and Bobby.

- I still know that I will never personally trust another to be my spiritual guide in life, and will never encourage others to look for external guides themselves. Yet, who am I to condemn someone else for finding what I believe to be some temporary solace in their life in such a situation?

Scott
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Sorry. That wasn't very nice. But you kind of ask for it. Scott, your empathy for the beggar is understandable and commendable. Your confusion isn't.

First, 'condemn'? Who said anything about 'condemn'? Do we condemn the members of Heaven's Gate? I dunno. Seems like the wrong word. How about 'feel sorry for'? Kind of puts a different spin on it. Why set up such a straw man?

Second, the arguments here aren't against people, they're against ideas. Only people who stand in the way get hurt. That's the way it's got to be if you're not going to protect ideas just b/c they've been adopted.

Is THAT a cultic idea? Not by any stretch of the imagination. Not unless you're going to play the newage game of turning words on their heads. The games heady with the feeling of 'breaking free' but in the end it just leaves you completely muddleheaded. If 'black' don't mean black, and 'white' don't mean white, pretty soon 'grey' won't mean grey either. Are we not men? We are DEVO!
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I would like to know what you make of this: (Briefly for now)

Is it not claimed that Maharaji's father received initiation from Anand Swarup (Sahebji Maharaj) , Dayalbagh 1913-1937 ?

This man was an extremely well known Radhasoami Guru and as such there is a wealth of information about him. Much more so than about Maharaji's father.

It turns out that even Anand Swarup's Guru's family disputed that Swarup was the rightful successor to the deceased Guru yet he still became the next Perfect Master for many. (and an extremely respected one ) (Ironically Anand Swarup's successor (Gurcharandas Mehta 1936-1975) was not accepted by members of Anand Swarup's own family! Despite this they all merrily started their own Satsangs and missions.)

Swarup was knighted by the British for establishing a thriving model community, indeed a city at Dayalbagh. Ghandi sent his condolences when he died in 1931. His followers set up many model businesses etc. and the motto of his community was 'Work is worship'. The same motto that Maharaji imported into the West for his 'Divine Light Mission'.

Shri Hans, MJ's father ,was not recognised at all by the followers of Anand Swarup as far as I can tell. In fact he doesn't even feature in any of the well documented histories of Anand Swarup (that I have yet read).

Shri Hansji was an active member of the Arya Samaj (a radical and sometimes rowdy Hindu reform group) in his youth.

Anand Swarup, had been a member of the Samaj in his youth too.( see note below)

Hansji was also apparently initiated by another Perfect Master of that same time called Sawan Singh who was also extremely widely known, respected and well documented.

It is of course also an historical fact that Maharaji was not recognised as the rightful successor to ShriHansji by members of his family either. This is almost a general rule in 'Guru Successorship'.

Considering the history it seems that 'Successful Guruship' is possibly more about Politics than Truth .

I will support my assertions with references and further documentation when I get a moment to do so.
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One thing he mentioned was that he'd contacted Linda Gross and some other woman, requesting an interview with Maharaji. He sdill doesn't have an answer yet. Nontheless, he's going to do a piece and hopes to have it in in about a month. I can't wait.

It'll be interesting to see if and how Maharaji stonewalls him. Maybe he won't. But if he doesn't -- and if you're reading this Maharaji you should consider this carefully -- if he doesn't he's gonna look like .... I dunno. John Gotti? O.J. Simpson? Timothy McVeigh?

No, no, settle down Mili and Chris, you little barking lapdogs (Mili's not really housetrained but what have you). I'm not saying Maharaji's a common criminal. What gave you that idea? I'm just asking... who else with a burning message of love and peace wouldn't want to talk with the press?

Hey, I know. Maybe Maharaji will complain that the press has been unfair to him. Really? When? When they reported tlat he was the self-proclaimed Perfect Master? When they took him up on his invitation and covered the abominable mess called Millenium '73? Or maybe when they covered his receiving the key to the city of Detroit and happened to have a cream pie thrown in his face? As I recall, the press gave Maharaji a lot of rope and he's got no one but himself to blame if he feels a little tangled up.

So, he's$a reasonable and fair guy. I'm sure he'll think the same and tell Kurt all he wants to know. Won't you Maharaji?

P.S. Wonder when he'll answer MY letter?
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I'm getting to the point Jim, whebe what Mike at INFO-CULT said makes alot of sense. He said that for my husband to admit that he is in a cult makes the last quarter of a century seem invaild. And that is VERY confronting. Thus the reaction on this forum doesn't seem strange at all. But what is the point in wasting time with those people who are so confronted. I'd rather read their stories etc.

By the way did that Washington Post article have anything worth reading? Good for you concerning the New Yorker...I haven't made any contact with Kurt.
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In 1980, the Boeing 707 was close to being finished, several years and millions of dollars after it started. At one point Guru Maharaj Ji decided to interview premies to be stewards and stewardesses on his plane. Anyway, I remember being summoned to the OGM with Booth Dyess and this woman originally from Minneapolis, whose name I can't recall.

[Booth Dyess: when I transferred to the Boston ashram in 1976, Booth was the community coordinator. He announced a couple of days after I got there that he was leaving the ashram and getting married. Turns out he got one of the community premies pregnant and since GMJ was adamantly opposed to abortion, he had a sort of shotgun situation on his hands. Of course, about a year or so later, when GMJ was demanding total surrender once again after the 1976 loosening, Booth abandoned his wife and kid and moved back into the ashram, ending up in Miami meeting with GMJ to be his steward. I hope he eventually went back to his wife and kid. But I digress.]

As you former devotees can imagine, I was excited just to be with Maharaj Ji and the possibity of flying around with him on his plane was beyond my wildest dreams. When he met with me, Mahararj JI was all business and was looking at a file that I guess had information about me in it. He first asked me how much I weighed. [Apparently with all those 24k gold bathroom fixtures and diamond-studded toilet seats on the plane, he couldn't mess around with people who might be a little chubby. But I think I was appropriately skinny, so I passed that hurdle.]

He then asked if I had ever flown a plane and I told him no, but that I had flown in my uncle's plane as a teenager and he let me hold the controls and 'steer' the plane for a brief period. GMJ shot back that you don't 'steer' a plane. He then asked if I knew anything about airline safety and I said no, but that I was willing to learn. He talked about 3-day course for anyone who was a steward on his plane. NEXT!

I came away from that meeting very confused. It was VERY clear that GMJ knew absolutely nothing about me on any level, except what was in that file, and couldn't care less about anything other than staffing for his luxury plane. I, of course, told other premies how blissed out I was and how grateful I was for the opportunity to meet with GMJ with such close proximity. But inside I saw some things that were very troubling. Like, how could I devote my life to somebody who couldn't give a shit about me and about whom I knew absolutely nothing beyond the perfect master folderol he had been spouting for years? Of course, like a good premie,I repressed that as much as I could, by labeling the feeling doubt and mind and I blamed myself for not being devoted or surrendered enough to see the perfect master's glory while he was right in front of me. It was very sick.

Anyone with similar experiences?
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1. Did you ever actually see or board that plane?
2. Did you go to the toilet on that plane?
3. If the answers to the previous two questions are negative, then you are also probably lying about everything else.

- Mili
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2. Answer to question number two is no. (Are you kidding?, it was verboten to even sit in one of his many ergon chairs, let alone his toilet.)

The bathroom fixtures were real gold in the plane and he even had a shower that had a computerized memory which at the push of a button would set the water temperature at which that he and Durga Ji liked to take showers and there was an automatic computerized setting for each. I was being sarcastic about the diamond studded-toilet seat; I really don't know if they were diamond studded or not, but there was so much else on the plane that was incredibly and ridiculously opulent that I wouldn't have been surprised. By the way, he also had real gold bathroom fixtures in his motorhome. I never was in any of his residences so I can't tell you about that.
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That meeting SanPurananda (spelling) gave an impassioned plea for the new plane money (Challenger, which has since been axed) and the main point he emphasized was the terriable situation with the toliet facilitieson the old plane.. Pull out version, in other words San would hold number 2 in on long flights to avoid MJ from having to , well you know. Anyhow he went on and on and actually had every one so moved to think their lord would suffer so.

An amazing amount of money was raised and the Challenger was bought...I think I contributed a couple thou because of that meeting...oh yah MJ made an unschedualed appearence and blew everyone by spending almost an hour with us. I was in the front row right in front of him, no stage and I was close enough to touch him. I felt I was in the presence of Jesus and was completely humbled. The fact that he spoke to the wrong Deena in reply to my letter San had hand delivered, and being all knowing I thought that he was sparing me. That if his eyes had met mine I would melt. Wonderful rationalization. The other Deena was furious with me in Rome when I met her because MJ saw her in the elevator and poked fun at her again.

When David Smith was here he let me know MJ was looking for a steward and suggested I write him. My son was 12 at the time and David said that my husband could look after him. I was keen but...as other times I nearly went (once when my son was 9 too ) I didn't but I wanted to.

I digress...
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I was reading an interesting article in the 25 year anniversary Divine Times newspaper the other day. It was by the guy telling how he was teaching Maharaji to fly a plane back in 1972. The plane and pilot stuff has been a long term goal. Did you see that one video on the history of Maharaji's avaiation stuff? It was shown at the fund raisers. An interesting video. Lots of types of aircraft. Gliders to jets.

A Lear Jet is a tin can considering the length and frequency of the journeys that M takes on.

JW, have you read any of the 25 year anniversary newspaper? Some nice historic articles.

CD
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A premie friend called me today to talk. What a surprise. He'd always avoided the topic of Maharaji or danced around it.

I read him a few quotes from M's old satsangs. He admitted, quite fairly, that that was some heavy shit. All this talk of killing the mind, surrendering the mind, him being god in human form, perfect. Heavy shit.

But then he snickered at me a bit. How foolish I must have been to actually believe all that stuff! Like, he, the discerning premie, knew how to take Maharaji with a grain of salt. Really, more like eating Japanese blowfish.

But now, as I write this, I remember that Maharaji used to even warn us of having even that little grain of salt. Remember the ant parable? The sugar ant and the salt ant, the one that couldn't taste anything sweet b/c it had even that little eeny weenie bit of salt in its mouth? I do.

So, I guess I should call him back, huh? Ask him if he remembers that parable and how Maharaji used it to vaccuum out whatever doubt grew like mold in the antiseptic cooler of our premie minds. But you know what he'll probably say? He'll probably say that I should have taken THAT parable with a grain of salt!

Mili, you spout this same bullshit as my friend. How do you suggest I respond to him?
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1.He never said it and if he did he didn't mean it that way.

2.He never required it, you were just too dense to know.

3.Besides, he doesn't say, mean, or require it anymore.
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Hey JW, I can't afford phone calls right now but Jim will fax you my number if you want to call....

Here is a gem. When I was talking to Mike from INFO-CULT he said 'Life is full of ups and downs...that's how you can tell you're happy.' Just a bit of obvious, simple wisdom that seems to have escaped me all these years in my buying into MJ's world. When I shared it with my husband he said 'Bullshit' I was surprised by this reaction ( seeing how he is mild mannered by nature) and he said 'I call a spade a spade as I see it'. Priceless eh?
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Sure, Life is full of ups and downs. But,' that's how you can tell you're happy' ??? Whoa!

Maharaji used to give the example that some people turn on the air conditioning and think that is happiness. Happiness? So what is happiness? I buy the 'theory' that 'happiness' is an experience, not a consequence. Just a theory, Ma'am. So your hubby calls BS, BS. Sounds like he is on the ball. Not a zombie. He is starting to get fiesty with your ways. Good for him. Right on! Show him my message and tell him I said HI! I have my girlfriend who is interested in Knowledge read many of these messages. Thoughts and curses by: Deena, Jim, OP, Chris, Bobby, Scott, JW, Mili, Anon, ... Keep that brain in gear, ma'am.

CD
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No news about Randy Prouty.
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- How 'bout Mahatma Gurucharanand? He gets a few b/c he was -- sorry IS -- so popular. One on the tennis court and one snapping his finger singing.

- How about Rajeshwar? He also gets two. One laughing like a happy little squealer, the other stern as hell. ( Hey, I liked him anyway.)

- Then there's Tejeshwaranand, on a massage table being comforted by one of his many 'sisters' even while a dopey boy ashram premie stood guard outside the closed door, holding a towel.

- How about Fakiranand, dressed as Mr. Fakir, wielding his hammer in mid-blow like some Shi'ite hero.

- Then, of course, the first four western mahatmas, together in one group piece: Pranam Bai ('I was just this chick from Detroit!'), Ira (representative of the large Jewish representation amongst Maharaji's early liberal, hippie following) and Bill (representative of Maharaji's plain, old vanillia kind of guys) and whatshisname -- buried, in my memory, in the tomb of the unknown mahatma?

- Saph?

- how 'bout the eurotrash mahatmas? The debonair, jetsetting dudes like Alberto, Diego, NOT Jagdeo ( but, yes, he gets one too)?

How bout a set of cheaper cardboard figures -- the officials of DLM and Eland Vital and The Office of Guru Maharaji? Mishler, Dettmers, Gary O?

Maharaji, there's a gold mine of Lord of the Universe kitsch, if you think about it. By the way, you DID copyright the phrase 'Lord of the Universe', didn't you?
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- You are right, there does not seem to be an undue emphasis on 3rd world countries. It was good to see this schedule. There does, however seem to be a much greater emphasis that there used to be when I was around. When I was around, to the best of my knowledge, M. might have been going to two or three 3rd world countries each year. Now, according to your list, he went to 16 of them last year. Not at all proof that his numbers are decreasing in the West, true, but it does show a trend.

- As far as his numbers in the West, I used to be a member of the Denver community. We used to have between 300 and 500 people attending Sat Sang every night in our old center on South Lincoln St.. A church we used to own that could probably seat around 600. The latest report I have heard from a current Denver premie is that at the weekly Denver video event, the only thing going on out there, about four or five people show. To me that seems to be a significant decrease in activity and propogation. I have heard similar reports from all across the country. Sincerely, Scott
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Several reasons for this:

I'll give you yours first - people are a lot more skeptical about any group. Cult fear is tremendous in almost every American community in the aftermath of Jim Jones, Koresh, etc. etc.

But also - there is no pressure for people to go to 'satsang' every night. People go because they want to. Although there are records kept of attendance, it's for statistical purposes only.

Then, there are many more places to go. In the early 70s, we'd all travel to a central location night after night. Nowadays, it's not uncommon to find that events are held in five or six different locations within one city.

And - there are the videos. They can be purchased and watched at home, one can invite someone to watch a video with them as an impromptu event, etc.

In some communities, events do happen nightly - sometimes twice a night (a twilight event, for those who would rather go straight from work).

At Long Beach last December the number of attendees was close to (if not over - I never heard the final statistics) 10,000.

There are occasional visits from Charananand and other instructors, and these are often held in larger venues - I'll count up the number of people who come to the next 'large' event, which will be in the NY area in about a week. I'll let you know the numbers.

As for JW's question, above: I don't have the information with me, but can easily break down the list I gave you by types of event and post it in about 8 hours. Last year, M did few public events, concentrating on Knowledge reviews that included many who, believe it or not, were returning after long absences.
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Here it is ('and' means one event; semicolon means different events with different audience)

January: Miami - premies
February: California - premies
Kuala Lumpur, premies; aspirants
Delhi, premies
Taiwan, premies
March: Japan, premies
England, premies
Spain , premies
April: Delhi, premies and aspirants
Switzerland, premies
England, aspirants
Spain, aspirants
Germany, premies
Sweden, premies
May: California, public event
Montreal, aspirants; premies
June: Illinois, premies
New York, premies
Rome, aspirants and premies
July: Miami, aspirants and premies
London, premies
Benin, premies and aspirants
August: Abidjan, aspirants; premies and aspirants; premies
Brazil, premies; aspirants
Uruguay, premies
Chile, premies
Argentina, aspirants; premies
South Africa, aspirants; premies
Mauritius, aspirants; premies; public
September: Mauritius, premies
New Zealand, aspirants; premies
October: Australia (4 cities), aspirants; premies; public
November: Delhi; aspirants and premies Calcutta, premies
Kathmandu, premies and aspirants
December: California, premies and aspirants

As I stated before, there was what seems extra emphasis on premies. Besides the Knowledge review, M gave a presentation with breakdowns of all activities he and Elan Vital have been involved in: history of Shri Hans's activities; history of the airplanes; numbers of people attending events in various parts of the world; number of people who have received knowledge, also broken down by sectors of the world; cost of large events including housing and food. In the West he also did a breakdown of how donations are distributed. He did not do this in India (I believe because so few people in India are able to make cash contributions; the events in 3rd world countries are supported mostly by Western donations).

I have no objection to my donations going toward a large festival in Nepal or Ghana. If you really listened to what Maharaji said in the early 70s you will remember that he has ALWAYS wanted to share what he considers his gift with the largest number of people, and it was always on his agenda to get to the third world (and communist) countries as soon as possible.

The Gulfstream airplane makes a lot of this possible. Often he didn't travel to 3rd world countries in the past because of the red tape and extra travel time involved with commercial airlines.

That's it for now. I'm spent.
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I don't know if the authors really believe that 'oneness' philosophy is a cause of the world's problems. I don't believe they say that anywhere in their book and this 'interview' does not even address the subject of the pathological nature of the guru-disciple relationship, which is by far the major subject of their book.

Nevertheless, I can see where one could conclude that 'oneness' philosophy eventually leads to vulnerability and abuse, given the predominant nature of human beings to want to be vulnerable and at the same time to dominate and abuse. Many political systems, abusive relationships, child abuse and various forms of manipulation result, with the vulnerable and the surrendered the most likely to get stepped on.

I have a good friend who was a premie for about 5 years and left the cult before I did. She told me that after she left being a premie she got in several abusive relationships because, from her viewpoint, she accepted all the 'guru-crap' about selfless love and that you only experience love when you give it, and so you can be selfless and not demand love and respect in return. When she translated that philosophy, so prevelent in what GMJ and others around him said and which basically was her 'love' relationship with GMJ (giving love and not expecting any back), she stayed in abusive relationships and took the abuse until she was able to get herself de-programmed from that dangerous and destructive belief system. That took some time after she left DLM, and some therapy. Now she is able to be in a loving relationship and yet protect herself from being a victim. The idea of 'oneness' is great and the experience of it is even better (which I still think the experience of 'knowledge' is), but I agree with Kramer that it is what comes after the experience of 'oneness' (as explained in the 20th paragraph of what you quoted), the morphing of that experience into a 'oneness ideology,' especially if it is focused on surrender to another person (aka a 'cult') that causes people to be susceptible to authoritarian manipulation.
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I have seriously considered my son in all of this. More so than when I did when I was a premie. When I spoke to Mike from Info-Cult last night (two and a half hours!), I realized that the essence of why I left MJ, etc. is because of a gradual build-up over time, that led to the proverbial straw that broke the camel's back, which made it seem like a sudden realization. I never considered leaving because I had discovered it was a cult, that word didn't exist yet in my vocab.

My son was suffering in the relationship of living with two people who's priority was MJ because of some issues that I will get into in another post. When I told him I wasn't involved any longer he was so relieved and happy. And this is a person who for years wanted to receive knowledge. Unforturnately, as much as he was charmed by MJ and enjoyed videos and audio tapes his main reason was because if he may miss out on what was being toted as THE TRUTH (truth, consciousness and bliss as MJ puts it ) That frightened him because he has been exploring Christianity and knew Mj said that was ok, and so he didn't want to make a mistake. Still the fear was causing anxiety. Also the level of involvement and our personal attiturdes about stuff was affecting his life directly and as I said I'll get into that later.

The point is I feel better after I spoke with Mike and I'm glad his organization exists.

More later...
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Sincerely,
Scott
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He's the guy with the Wizard of Is page (linked off Harlaan's page). He has about the stupidest premie parable I've ever seen and sells casette versions for $8. He dedicates his page to Maharaji and, most interesting, claims to have once been an initiator.

Look, I'm bored, okay?

On another note, I've fallen back into the habit of spending way too much time here. I've got to take a bit of a break again. First, it was the pleasure of arguing with gurunoids. Then it was the joy of confirmation I get from reading some of you other mentators. And the dirt, let's not forget the dirt.

But I'm not exercising. I could be working harder. Playing more music. You know. It just seems like there's always one more thing to say, one more thing to read. Hmm.
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Also I would like to know when the premies on this page will finally admit, as my husband did recently, that FOR A PREMIE THERE IS NO GREATER EXPERIENCE THAN TO BE AT HIS FEET.

Changing from a cult to a meditation whatever Scott? Well, cults change there names so often I'm told, that it is difficult to keep up with them. MJ always boasts how he could advertise but that is not the way it has been done all these years...he boasts he could charge for knowledge and that would make things alot easier 'believe me'( he has said).

Well, frankly I don't believe him. I dare him to billboard this in the west. He won't . And he won't charge for it either. If he did he would put himself back in the limelight. And that's what cults don't like to do. They are chameleon by nature and it is for this very reason that he is in the cult listings. When premies go on and on about how it's changed that just confirms it even more. Lord of the universe to no longer lord of the universe. Light, Music, Holy Name and Necter changed to Irst, 2nd , 3rd and 4rth technique. Guru Maharaj Ji to Maharaji. ETC ETC ......Of course, premies will answer, as my husband when he returned from watching a video this week You are so wrong about IT. Meaning IT being a cult. Understood. If a person is in a cult then it is not called a cult or they wouldn't be in IT.

Doubt I'll be back for a few days yet but I will be back.Just feel like getting on with my life a little more these days. Talk to you all soon. Bye Bye.
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The first was in Toronto in 1974, it was November, so it must have been Hans Jayanti festival. After I kissed his feet I couldn't think or focus on anything and I wandered around for about an hour until whatever it was wore off.

The second time was at Holi Festival in 1979. That was the festival that was held in the middle of a hurricane and we had to all move up to Orlando and GMJ gave darshan in the middle of the night. I thought it was cool because there was no elaborate set up like there usually was, and hardly any line. People just threw their shoes in a pile and ran in for darshan. I just felt really peaceful and contented afterwards when Maharaj Ji gave a little satsang under the stars.

Like I said, the other times, with the possible exception of the London Guru Puja festival in 1973, it was pretty empty. Some people say that the experiences were all in my head and came from inside of me and I convinced myself that the experiences were special. I know that they have run tests (I've seen it on PBS so it must be true) and people can truly convince themselves, for example, that they have been abducted by aliens, when it couldn't have taken place, and they experience under hypnosis all the emotions that one would expect to have if you really were abducted by aliens. It was all fabricated into an actual experience. So maybe that is what was happening to me, (the fabrication, not the abduction.)

One thing that is consistent. The "good" experiences I had kissing Gmj's feet all happened during periods of my life when I was generally pretty happy. And the rest of them, the "empty" ones, occurred during periods when I was generally pretty miserable and feeling kind of trapped in Maharaj Ji's world, but seeing no escape. In those periods, there was no solace in GMJ's presence, at least for me.

The other thing I recall is that as the darshan set up got more elaborate, as they set up more rooms for people who fainted, more people fainted. I recall one festival where Joe Anctil announced from the stage that there wasn't enough room for a "fainting area" and he asked that people please not faint. AND THEY DIDN'T!!! Kinda lets you know what was happening there, doesn't it.
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Someone must know. Someone must have some tie to someone somewhere with some information or something about him. No?
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My favorite holy family story is funny now, but at the time it was freaky for me. A bunch of us had been working day and night to get the ashram ready for GMJ and the holy family to stay there. I mean I hadn't slept for at least 72 hours. I was running on grace as they used to say. Anyhow, when the holy family finally arrived, I stood in the doorway while Mata Ji and Bohle Ji examined the room. Anyhow, Bohle Ji must have had a big bugger in his nose because he was picking his nose, I mean really, really, really, entire-finger-up-the-nostril picking his nose. Since at that time I considered him the divine incarnation of music, as explained in Who Is Guru Maharaj Ji?, it really freaked me out. The lesson I learned, however, was that this was just a lila to blow my concept of what a divine being is like. That was the same rationalization I used when GMJ bought Rolls Royces and jet airplanes. This is off subject, but I guess I'm feeling chatty right now, sorry Jim.
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I can remember Maharaj Ji being really pissed at a Denver program in 1977(?) (the one where he said the stage looked like a toilet)and he was certainly heavy angry at Kissimee in 1979. Maybe things weren't going well at the time. I also recall stories that he was storming around his house (god, I HATE saving "the residence") in Miami Beach around the same time period screaming and yelling. It was also during this period that I recall one time at DECA in 1979, in preparation for the program in Kissimee, certain premies were presenting him with stage design and he hated them all and yelled about how no one understood what he wanted. I saw premies plead with him to tell them what he wanted. He never did, as that seemed to make him angrier. He was just indignant and, I think, expected people to have infused knowledge or something. I could never figure it out.

Anyway, can you or Bill or anyone elaborate?
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It won't take us to any advanced state of consciousness. An occassional flicker of light in the darkness, perhaps, but so elusive that it probably confuses more than it soothes.

I don't know about the rest of you, but I accepted all the subtle and not-so-subtle rules and regulations of premiedom on the basis that practicing the techniques would lead to some sort of spiritual enlightenment.

I can well remember standing in cold halls in front of a small bemused audience, saying that the knowledge will give you Jesus's 'Peace that passeth all understanding', Buddha's Satori. The cosmic flash, bang Zen wallop Maharaji called REALIZATION.

It took me three years to discover that it was a load of bollocks. Realization was an empty promise that no-one took seriously. It faded from view to be replaced by the Protestant work ethic - go forth and propogate; your reward will come some time in the future.

So what's this post about? In some way it's a defence of Maharaji - there's no doubt that mediation can soothe the soul. His techniques are the best I've found, and let's be real - what else was the guy supposed to do? Like the Dali Lama; Maharaji was brought up to believe he was a god-head. It's a very difficult place to climb down from.

Would any of us behaved any differently? I don't think so. I'd be quite happy with my plane, my Maserati and all the other little trappings of success. If the suckers keep on coming, then why stop them? They're happy, he's happy. Who are we to ruin the party?

Just some thoughts...

Douche
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You're absolutely right. But do you remember THIS: years ago we premies had a goal -- to 'realize' the Knowledge. That's the term we had for the big click. Remember Maharaji's analogy of breaking the sound barrier? Crossing the threshold, that kind of thing.

The only person I ever knew who claimed to 'realize' the Knowledge was the girl in Vancouver who Tejeshwaranand was screwing. She jumped from being a nice, unassuming community premie -- not even an ashramie -- to giving satsang every night and telling us how she finally saw Maharaji everywhere. Such is the grace.

I think we leave this argument alone partly b/c we all spent so long blaming ourselves for not truly surrendering. Not trying hard enough. That guilt trip is still in there somewhere.

You're probably right about Maharaji's initial predicament. But now? Understandable on some level or not, his continuing deceit can't be condoned.
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Jai Sat Chit Anand!

It's so beautiful to see that Maharaji can find me even here on the net when I was looking for porn.... make that MORE porn. I received Knowledge many years ago and have not been the best premie. Not to say I didn't try. I once moved to South America and tried to learn to give satsang with more heart and worse English but, no go, Mr. Mind kept correcting my grammar. I tried playing 'senor de la clara luz' for hours on end but, I confess, I felt nothing.

Then I moved to England and tried becoming a junkie just so I could give it all up for Maharjai like the first English premies did. I'm still a junkie.

Then I moved to Australia in hopes of getting FULL TIME SERVICE on the land, but I can't even find the premies in the phone book. What are they under these days anyways? I did hire a lawyer to do a title search for Maharaji's land but thta didn't work. Anyone know who's name it's under?

So now, after not practising for years, I stumble across Maharaji in the funniest way. It's such a grace to hear you brothers and sisters talking the truth. There's so little clarity these days. I'll never forget Maharaji describing how everyone keeps walking around with 'bullet guns.' That's really true where I'm living now. There are lots of bullet guns.

Someone told me I should really get in touch becuase Maharaji has some new things for sale. So, I wonder if anyone knows anything about these commemorative spoons? I'd like to make a donation.

Also, does anyone remember what happened to Bob Mishler? Like I say, I haven't been around for a while, although I've been trying, in my own way, but there's just so much grace. My heart's been programmed to respond gushily to any mention of Maharaji. That's grace, isn't it?

I need a knowledge review. Also, does anyone know if it's okay to have sex now? I didn't really live in the ashram because I never really thought Maharaji meant it when he said what he did about it. And if he did, I'm sure he's sorry. He should be becuase we're all growing and he must have a lot to be sorry about becuase I'm sure he's grown a lot too.

Does anyone know if Maharaji endorses any particular VCR or TV for his videos? Thanks again, this page is a godsend!

Did anyone find a wallet at one of the Miami festivals? I can't remember what year but I'm sure it was Holi.

Jai!

Jim
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I'd like to be able to get rid of my own without having to actually see them again. Yes, even I can't stomach the sight of my own 'chit chat.'
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Ask Maharaji. He ordered all copies destroyed, didn't he? Anyway, I've got a couple but I'm sorry, they're not for rent. For all I know, you'd obey your master's orders and never return them! Wouldn't you? Or would you defy your Lord's direct command?

Jim

Did he? How the fuck would I know? I really resent your remarks. Let's get something straight. YOU were the one who was duped. Not me. You sat at his lotus feet. I'll bet you lived in an ashram, too. Stupid fuck. Gave him your money, huh? So now you're out to save the world. Protect EVERYONE from the terrible thing that befell you!

MY MASTER? Look, soft in the brain, Maharaji gave me Knowledge and all he asked in return was that I practice it. He never asked me for a dime. I don't pay for his plane or the lavish lifestyle. You did, though, didn't you? And that's what's got you all in a snit. You were made a fool of, huh? When are you going to get past that?

Look at it this way, as far as Masters go, you didn't pick such a bad one. He could have asked you to drink Kool Aid! But he didn't.

He's harmless.

If you want to discuss Maharaji with me you're going to have to stop with all the snide remarks. You have no idea where I'm coming from. Don't you have anything more interesting to talk about? This gets old fast. You have to have more on the ball than that. Lighten up. I'll write. I won't get into a pissing contest with you, though. It just wears me out. I won't insult you if you don't insult me. Fair enough? TRUCE! Would you like to find some other common ground? I was advised NOT to even read your mail....just to delete it before I read it....as others do. Lots of others. I don't want to do that. It's your call.
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To further shred my perhaps already damaged-beyond-retrieval credibility, at least for some learned minds on this forum, I offer that in my humble perception, Maharaji The vehicle, has made considerable positive contribution to the world. Many have received Knowledge and have thus been set on a spiritual path.

I do not know how Aware Maharaji the man is. Actually that is not a determination for me to make. Rather it seems to me that many have benefitted in having been effectively moved into spiritual practice.

I believe there are sentient energies of a high order orchestrating much that is occurring on this planet. We are on the edge as never before and may not make it.

It occurs to me that the Peace Bomb Satsang was perhaps an authentic channelling of Higher Intelligence.

WooWoo

In the late 19th century Wovoka resurrected the teachings of the Ghost Dance to Native Americans in the Plains States and the American West. The teachings included the belief that the End was coming and that the Native Americans would be restored to homeland and spirituality. Folks believed that they wore magical shirts that would stop the white man's bullets. The natives were massacred.

What does this say about Native American Spirituality?

See ya later folks. Yr ears 'll all be ringing as I go to visit my old and dear friend Raymondo for a day of Satsang in the woods. It is my privilege to know Raymondo, a practicing healer and shaman. I first met the man in 1972 in a little Divine Sales Store on St. Marks Place in New York City. We hung out together on the banks of the Ganges in '72.

God bless y'all.
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I wish I coudl spend a day in the woods with a pracicing healer and shaman. If I had my pick I'd take Don Juan or Peter Pan, whoever was free at the moment.
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Asahara's statement contradicted testimony by several cult members that they carried out the March 1995 attack on his orders. Twelve people were killed and thousands sickened. Asahara acknowledged that his Aum Shinri Kyo cult produced the nerve gas, but told the court that top disciples ignored repeated orders in the days before the attack to call it off. ``I left it up to them,'' he said.

In all, Asahara denied responsibility for 16 of the charges he faces, including murder for a nerve gas attack that killed seven in central Japan just months before the subway gassing. On one attempted murder charge, he did admit to giving an order to attack a man who had tried to help a member escape the cult in December 1994. Thursday's statement was the closest Asahara has come to making a plea to the charges, although the trial began a year ago Thursday at the Tokyo District Court. The case is being heard by four judges. Japan has no jury trials, and, given the snail's pace of the country's legal system, a verdict still could be years away. Asahara has not yet been called to the stand.

The 17 charges against him include the murder of 26 people and the attempted murder of about 3,800, most of them injured in the subway gassing. Asahara appeared calm and spoke quietly. But in keeping with his odd behavior in court since the trial began last April 24, he frequently alternated between English and Japanese. He was admonished by the court to speak only in Japanese, but refused to do so, insisting he was addressing ``my friendly Russian people, the government and present supporters -- maybe all of the world.''

Asahara's cult had thousands of adherents in Russia, where cult members are suspected of obtaining weapons technology. Asahara often said during the session that he had been absolved of the crimes as of Dec. 23, 1996, but did not explain. When his lawyer asked him Thursday's date, he said, ``It's January 5th or 6th, 1997, isn't it?'' Later in the session, his lawyers complained the trial was proceeding too quickly for them to prepare adequately, although they are aware of public criticism that it is moving too slowly. At its peak before the 1995 attack, Asahara's cult claimed tens of thousands of members around the world. Most of the cult's top leaders have been linked to the subway attack or other criminal activities. Several cult members have confessed to carrying out the subway gassing at Asahara's command and are being tried separately. The cult has been legally disbanded.
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So can anyone believe that almost two weeks later Maharaji still hasn't answered my letter? I wonder if he's okay. I've also left a few phone messages for David Smith and no answer there either.

If I didn't know better I'd suggest checking the Heaven's Gate manifest. I wonder how Maharaji will die, anyway? And when he does, what will happen to all of us? Does he have a will? A hidden memoire? If not, perhaps we should write one.

'Dear Diary,

Today was just the greatest. I went to my father's funeral (sad) and some of my friends from St. Joseph's Academy were there. Lots of people were there and we had lots of cake. Everyone was crying becuase my father was such a great man. I got really sad.

Then I wanted to go. But I couldn't because mummy was meeting with all father's mahatmas. I couldn't go there so I stayed outside. Everyone was really sad.

Then, guess what? They made me the new satguru! Not my older brothers or anyone. Me! Wow. So, like I say, diary, this was really the greatest day. I'm going to be a really good satguru, too. Mummy's really happy too. I'm not sure about Bal Bhagwan Ji. He won't talk with me.'
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A suppressive person is a person who seeks to suppress any betterment activity or group. The suppressive person, also called an antisocial personality, works to upset, continuously undermine, spread bad news and denigrate other people and their activities. While it has sometimes been said that a suppressive person is just anti-premie, the fact is they oppose anyone doing better in life. Such people are not always easy to identify, however, they can be known by specific characteristics:

1. He or she speaks only in very broad generalities. "They say..." "Everybody thinks..." "Everyone knows..."

2. Such a person deals mainly in bad news, critical or hostile remarks, invalidation and general suppression.

3. The antisocial personality alters, to worsen, communication when he or she relays a message or news.

4. A characteristic, and one of the sad things about an antisocial personality, is that he does not respond to treatment or reform.

5. Surrounding such a personality we find cowed or ill associates or friends who, when not driven actually insane, are yet behaving in a crippled manner in life, failing, not succeeding.

6. The antisocial personality habitually selects the wrong target. If A is the obvious cause, the antisocial personality inevitably blames B or C or D.

7. The antisocial cannot finish a cycle of action. The antisocial becomes surrounded with incomplete projects.

8. Many antisocial persons will freely confess to the most alarming crimes when forced to do so, but will have no faintest sense of responsibility for them.

9. The antisocial personality supports only destructive groups and rages against and attacks any constructive or betterment group.

10. This type of personality approves only of destructive actions and fights against constructive or helpful actions or activities.

11. Helping others is an activity which drives the antisocial personality nearly berserk. Activities, however, which destroy in the name of help are closely supported.

12. The antisocial personality has a bad sense of property and conceives that the idea that anyone owns anything is a pretense, made up to fool people. Nothing is ever really owned.

Fortunately, such individuals are a very small percentage of the population. But because society as a whole has not had any means to identify them, the amount of havoc wreaked by the antisocial personality throughout the centuries is incalculable. Virtually all the turmoil and conflict in an individual s life can be traced to contact with such personalities. Individual men and women can usually sort out their differences through communication if they are not adversely influenced, often unknowingly, by an antisocial personality attempting to inflame, instead of resolve, conflicts.
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1. A true' master will never accept the name master', or any other such title.
2. A true' master will never accept your money or any other material gain as a result of his teachings.
3. A true' master will never make any decisions for you, but will rather encourage you to develop your own decision making ability.

- I then asked Professor Lahiri if he were in the business of teaching meditation and accepting disciples. He said that while he did teach a meditation, he didn't exactly consider those who he had taught this meditation to to be his disciples.
- He was the one person from all of my travels in India who I considered worthy to ask for spiritual guidance. He was also the one person who flatly turned me down upon hearing my request, saying that I should go back to America. He also refused any contribution that I proffered to him.
- Since leaving Prof. Lahiri, I haven't always followed his advice, especially at first. I must say, however, that I wish I had. It would have saved me from many years of the insanity that always seems to develop when one con man cons another into believing that he can deliver the tickets to the golden stairway, enlightenment, heaven, or whatever you want to call it. (Why do I say it takes two con men? The second con man must con himself.)
- The definition of a cult: Taking Prof. Lahiri's teaching one step further, I think that an excellent definition of a cult could be derived. This is the definition I believe that can be derived. A cult is:

1. Any supposedly spiritual organization that divides its membership according to titles of spiritual rank.
2. Any supposedly spiritual organization which accepts donations in exchange for the supposed dispensing of spiritual merit or gain.
3. Any supposedly spiritual organization which does not fully respect and recognize the individual's right and duty to arrive at his own answers internally, without the props of an externally imposed doctrine or creed.

- Accordingly, if this definition were inserted into Webster's dictionary, how many of our churches and synagogues would qualify as cults?
- Obviously, Maharaji's gig would qualify, but how many others?
- Has Maharaji managed to successfully transform his guru trip' into a bonafide religious meditation society?' Perhaps he has managed to package his movement in a more user- friendly' fashion for westerners, but beneath it all, it's still a cult in my book.
- Is this a fair definition of a cult?

Sincerely,
Scott
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Sincerely,
Scott 1. Any supposedly spiritual organization that divides its membership according to titles of spiritual rank.

There IS no membership. There is no computer list of premies. When you receive Knoweldge you are just a disciple no different from all the other disciples. Maharaji is ALSO a disciple of HIS master.

2. Any supposedly spiritual organization which accepts donations in exchange for the supposed dispensing of spiritual merit or gain.

Donations are accepted for purposes of organising programmes, producing videos and printed materials, not for dispensing spiritual merit or gain. Any spiritual merit or gain is your own effort in meditation.

3. Any supposedly spiritual organization which does not fully respect and recognize the individual's right and duty to arrive at his own answers internally, without the props of an externally imposed doctrine or creed.

The fundamental difference between Maharaji and churches or doctrines IS that he wants you to meditate and arrive at your own answers internally. The only doctrine or creed that you see here is in your own head, Scott.

Why am I replying to all these zany posts?
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Sincerely,
Scott
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Sincerely,
Scott

I have no problem with Maharaji flying around the world presenting talks on Knowledge. He does a very good job of it. There are lots and lots of people that really appreciate his visits. Obviously you don't, but so what? Are you being pressured for money? The use of the private plane allows him to more efficiently use his time. Corporate executives do it all the time for the exact same reason. What's the big deal? I contribute towards the plane because I feel that the benefits of its use are extremely positive. Do you have a problem with that?

Your two nickel story is purely your conjecture. Fine for me if the New Yorker guy investigates the details and clears up this BS. People are told the details of the plane and tours and contribute if they so desire.

Scott, why do you have such a big web site and I don't? Is this unfair? I don't think so. Thanks for the use of your site. I was actually wondering if you need any contribution towards the maintenance of this site? I wouldn't mind plunking down a contribution for its support.

Scott, When was the last time that you personally attended a talk given by Maharaji?

I also read the autobiography book. Interesting.
Some things are just not as clear cut as 1,2,3 or 1+1. Ask Pythagorous!
CD
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Actually there are a few premies who go flying around in luxury planes. No, not entourage - just people w/money.

Scott, why do you insist on being twenty years behind the times? Here it is again (unedited by Deena, who has no high-level clearance that gives her more information than mine):

1. Aspirants are asked in the Knowledge sesson to promise three things: not to divulge the techniques to anyone; give Knowledge a fair chance; stay in touch.

2. Contributions are accepted, there are occasional meetings at which finances are discussed and the need for contributions is presented. These meetings are announced as specifically for people who wish to participate. No one is asked to give what they can't afford. Key words - cited several times by Maharaji at the end of the Long Beach event: IF YOU WANT TO.

3. There is a full financial disclosure of all income, expenses, and disbursement of funds. If you want to know when the next fund-raising meeting is, I can let you know (there's nothing scheduled right now).
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He repeatedly told his audience that he could give them the 'key' to life, and he clearly 'talked down' to them, in that old familiar patronizing way that he always used to, which I am sure is quite appealing to those who may feel in need of a strong father figure.

- I am glad to hear that he has dropped the wording about surrendering the reins of your life to him. In must admit that that would seem to be a small step in the right direction. I am still curious about what it means to 'stay in touch'. Does that at all imply that one should feel obligated to support his highly profitable video enterprise, attend his costly programs, or possibly support him more directly and simply with straightforward donations? I am also curious about what it means, 'to give Knowledge a chance'. From what Deena has said, aspirants are still taught that to have faith in him as a sort of spiritual master is very much a part and parcel of 'practicing Knowledge'. If this is the case, it still seems to me that things haven't changed much. Only the outer trappings.

- Still, with M.'s taste in multimillion dollar luxury jets, if he truly was teaching that we are all brothers and that he is not some sort of Lord, why does he choose a lifestyle that speaks very loudly and clearly otherwise? I have no fondness for the CEO's of big corporations who feel that their exalted positions have earned them the right to thumb their noses at the common working man while they toy with private jets and mansions. I also have no fondness for a spiritual leader who does these things while I see so many of his followers barely scraping by.

Sincerely, Scott
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Honestly, you guys are impossibly stuck. You don't want resolution, you want war. And if there's no reason left to fight the war, you'll turn over some more stones until you find one, even at the expense of those who may have suffered for reasons that have NOTHING to do with the items mentioned on this forum.
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See Me
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- There. That about does it for the list of credits I send in Maharaji's direction. Jim, am I an ostrich now?
- Any other former premies want to add to or take away from this list?

Scott
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Scott PS: Oh and one last thing I owe him credit for on some level.

4. Presenting me with a way to find my own answers within. Even though this is something which I don't think he really intended, because anyone who actually followed his advice and found true 'inner peace' wouldn't have to keep sending him donations to feel good about themselves any more.
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- This guy accidentally ends up giving this powerful Indian holy man a glass of water. (Not knowing the holy man's true identity.) The holy man is pleased with this guy and says, 'For your kindness, I will give you any two boons. What do you wish for?'
- The guy stops and thinks for a while. Then he says, 'First I wish that on whomever my shadow falls, any ailment or sickness that that person has will be cured.'
- Then the guy stops and thinks for a while longer. The holy man says, 'And your second wish?' The guy begins to realize some of the problems that may arise from the first wish.
- He says, 'I wish that I will never know about any of the good that results from my first boon.'
- And so it was that the saint of the shadow went about curing and healing many, but never himself knew of the great good he carried with him.

- Now Jim, I'm sure that you probably think little stories like this are nice little quaint pieces of bullshit, but for me, they meant something else. True, this story was one that I heard from a premie and not from M.. True M. usually spent most of his time subtly making us feel beholden to him. But still, I survived all that crap, and I am still left with some of the beauty. Wasn't there any beauty there at all for you Jim?

Scott
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Scott That should get you a pat on the back from your guru Jim.
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Scott I notice you intentionally didn't mention Jesus, Buddha, Guru Nanak, teh other nine Sikh gurus, Sri Ramakrisnha, Vivekananda, The Pope, the Dalai Lama and Shri Hans.

Really man, if you can't see the differnce between Saddam Hussein and Maharaji, you need more than an aid for the visually impaired - you need a new brain. - Mili
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Scott I notice you intentionally didn't mention Jesus, Buddha, Guru Nanak, the other nine Sikh gurus, Sri Ramakrisnha, Vivekananda, The Pope, the Dalai Lama and Shri Hans.

Really man, if you can't see the differnce between Saddam Hussein and Maharaji, you need more than an aid for the visually impaired - you need a new brain. - Mili
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he disses those who use poetic license with words, then goes ahead and comes up with his own meanings, beholden to none.

re: yesterdays posts with Jim's free-form usage of 'hypocrisy' and 'integrity'.

Hey Jim! chill! You're not in a fucking courtroom! Well, then again, perhaps you think you are.

the Lord of the Universe on trial
Starring James Heller esquire, D.A.
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For me, my experience of the world was wrecked early on. My reference point of reality is different than yours. The most real thing for me is my near-death where I encountered the Holy Presence. No one can take that experience from me. It's my business to find the ways to express what I experienced.

It's been difficult for me to be in a body. Please trust that this is a very real experience for me. I honor your difference as a gay man just as I learn to honor all the incredible diversities of human expression. Please respect that the powerful spiritual experiences I have had are very real. Actually, you can think whatever you want, I just am groping trying to establish the ontological reality of Spirit as far as I am concerned in my communications with you. I can't define your experience and I don't want to.

For me, the reality is that there is much more that I have to express. I've experienced powerful spiritual visions. Some of these visions have happened. Some are yet to manifest. I ain't in this for the money. My mission is to got to express my truth. It's taken me many years to get to the place I am. The spiritual unfoldment is an ongoing process.

actually I don't believe anything -- not consensus reality, not new-age, not appearances. This is not to say that I don't get lost in the phenomena. Just like everyone else I've gotten get lost in the dream again and again. However, my reference points are that it is all a dream. This is not new-age, this is my experience. My Near-Death is most real and is essentially occurring right now. What can I say?

more on this later
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Just asking.
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How much more? Can't you stick to talking more about tangible criticisms of MJ and less about these uncontestable and tiresome visions of yours . Is that too much to ask? Nobody's saying you can't express yourself. I am simply saying that I come here not to hear more spiritual waffle but soley to get a clearer idea about what MJ was and is actually up to. You've got you're own website to blub about your precious Near-Death on until you're blue in the face. Personally I am not particularily interested. Is anyone else?
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We should plan a get together. What a crew - g!

It might be tough to compromise on what songs to play during happy hour. And what type of drinks will people be allowed to drink?
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Believe it or not, Bobby makes perfect sense to me.

Once the mind has been stretched by a new experience, it can never regain its original shape.

I can't remember who said that - but I always treasure it. It reminds me that I never stop growing, and even if the directions don't always seem positive, the potential is limitless.

I too had a near-death experience, by the way, Bobby. It was after I received Knowledge. I won't bore you guys by recounting it here, but I've been thinking about it recently, so it will probably get posted sometime soon.
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No please.. not here I trust...I beg of you.. spare us. Email it privately to him if you must reminisce! Then he can post it on his website!
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-----Anon (her/his real name?) eagerly awaits more juicy tidbits about the life and times of Shri Guru Maharaj
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If they're not bragging about their intellectual talent and pedigree, they're bemoaning their meagre gifts in that respect.

'Hey' says OP at time

1 'I'm just a relguar kinda guy/gal. Don't know much about history. Don't know much biology. But I do know that I love him. And I know that if you loved him Jim, what a wonderful world this would be.'

2. These same premies, at time 2, start thorwing outr smirky quantum physics, fuzzy logic, beyond the left brain theorems like they're candy, all under the guise of expressions of the modern, well-informed and amazingly hip new thinker of today! Super thinkers!

These two views are inconsistent.
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Can somebody kindly serve up some real interesting DIRT ON THE GUY?
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Now, whoever wrote this, I think first you should explain how you got your letters so big. Second, I kind of agree. But chill out a bit, will ya? Don't you see bits and pieces of real info about our former master mindfuck coming down the line? I do.

Besides, it's Bobby's birthday! Have you wished him a happy birthday yet? I haven't. Happy Birthday, Bobby!
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DON"T TAKE THIS PERSONALLY all you nice sensitive positive-thinking spiritually aware types.
It is obviously wise to remain very impartial in these debates and not to take personal offence when reeling from the full force the so-called 'direct rage' or critisism of others. I have learned through experience that stinging personal attacks (though unpalatable at first) are usually only hurtful because they contain an element of truth. Therefore nowadays I delightedly welcome such confrontation (as it can nudge me out of my more complacent attitudes). If my critics' attacks don't 'sting' then they are probably boringly wrong in their judgements or they are trying to flatter me!

As for serving up 'Dirt on the guy' again we'll have to wait and see if there is any.

Jim, you can make the letters big by using a < FONT SIZE = 1-7> your text < / FONT SIZE > tab.
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Cult: 1. A system of religious worship or ritual. 2. Devoted attachment to, or extravagant admiration for, a person, principle, etc., especially when regarded as a fad: as, the cult of nudism. 3. A group of followers: sect.

- Mili, does any of this apply to you? Jim, how could this apply to any former premies who on the outset disavow following any gurus, masters, or other such Tom-foolery?

Scott
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'group solidarity in sentiment and belief; UNANIMITY'

Hardly. Except maybe number 4.

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JW did say himself that it was 'My true fantasy'.

Can you imagine dreaming about the IRS? I am starting to see why he has such painful feelings.
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You want to get me mad or something - g?

You definitely haven't seen my bad side yet! I don't think you would like it.

O.K. lets drop the fantasy stuff. What is your present career?
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Could be.

I happen to think that some of your complaints are pitiful.

You sound like someone who would sue your neighbor for slipping on a banana peel in their yard.

I am sure you have had your troubles, problems and ordeals. And may in fact not have been treated right by people who were associated with Maharaji.

I guess it is just the sniveling way that you present your case. Maybe you are not such a bad person after all. You don't seem to be severely damaged.

I don't believe that a car actually ran you over. It sounds more like you may have tripped or been tripped and bumped into a car.
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Really?

Sounds like a steady job to me. What was it you wanted to study in graduate school? Did you ever do it?
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