Ex-Premie.Org |
Forum I Archive # 1 | |
From: Apr 12, 1997 |
To: May 2, 1997 |
Page: 3 Of: 5 |
JW -:- WHATEVER HAPPENED TOO..... -:- Tues, Apr 22, 1997 at 01:29:10 (EDT) ___Bill -:- Re: WHATEVER HAPPENED TOO..... -:- Tues, Apr 22, 1997 at 01:41:57 (EDT) ___Jim -:- Re: WHATEVER HAPPENED TOO..... -:- Tues, Apr 22, 1997 at 08:42:26 (EDT) ___JW -:- Re: WHATEVER HAPPENED TOO..... -:- Tues, Apr 22, 1997 at 11:27:58 (EDT) ___JW -:- Re: WHATEVER HAPPENED TOO..... -:- Tues, Apr 22, 1997 at 12:47:36 (EDT) ___Deena -:- Re: WHATEVER HAPPENED TOO..... -:- Wed, Apr 23, 1997 at 00:59:24 (EDT) ___JW -:- Re: WHATEVER HAPPENED TOO..... -:- Wed, Apr 23, 1997 at 12:04:07 (EDT) ___Anne -:- Re: WHATEVER HAPPENED TOO..... -:- Wed, Apr 23, 1997 at 12:54:03 (EDT) ___JW -:- Re: WHATEVER HAPPENED TOO..... -:- Wed, Apr 23, 1997 at 14:14:27 (EDT) ___Jim -:- Re: WHATEVER HAPPENED TOO..... -:- Wed, Apr 23, 1997 at 17:36:24 (EDT) ___JW -:- Re: WHATEVER HAPPENED TOO..... -:- Wed, Apr 23, 1997 at 18:02:15 (EDT) ___JW -:- Re: WHATEVER HAPPENED TOO..... -:- Wed, Apr 23, 1997 at 18:11:17 (EDT) ___Anne -:- Re: WHATEVER HAPPENED TOO..... -:- Wed, Apr 23, 1997 at 19:05:34 (EDT) ___Chris -:- Re: WHATEVER HAPPENED TOO..... -:- Wed, Apr 23, 1997 at 19:36:17 (EDT) ___Jim -:- Re: WHATEVER HAPPENED TOO..... -:- Wed, Apr 23, 1997 at 20:15:52 (EDT) ___Jim -:- Re: WHATEVER HAPPENED TOO..... -:- Wed, Apr 23, 1997 at 20:20:15 (EDT) ___x -:- Re: WHATEVER HAPPENED TOO..... -:- Wed, Apr 23, 1997 at 20:45:04 (EDT) Bill -:- ITS NOT A BREEZE -:- Tues, Apr 22, 1997 at 01:09:25 (EDT) ___Douche -:- Re: ITS NOT A BREEZE -:- Tues, Apr 22, 1997 at 15:56:43 (EDT) ___old premie -:- Re: ITS NOT A BREEZE -:- Tues, Apr 22, 1997 at 16:08:43 (EDT) ___bobby -:- Re: ITS NOT A BREEZE -:- Tues, Apr 22, 1997 at 16:14:06 (EDT) ___bobby -:- Re: ITS NOT A BREEZE -:- Tues, Apr 22, 1997 at 16:16:36 (EDT) ___op -:- Re: ITS NOT A BREEZE -:- Tues, Apr 22, 1997 at 16:37:21 (EDT) ___op -:- Re: ITS NOT A BREEZE -:- Tues, Apr 22, 1997 at 16:38:39 (EDT) ___bobby -:- Re: ITS NOT A BREEZE -:- Tues, Apr 22, 1997 at 16:45:30 (EDT) ___op -:- Re: ITS NOT A BREEZE -:- Tues, Apr 22, 1997 at 16:50:37 (EDT) ___op -:- Re: ITS NOT A BREEZE -:- Tues, Apr 22, 1997 at 16:54:02 (EDT) ___bobby -:- Re: ITS NOT A BREEZE -:- Tues, Apr 22, 1997 at 16:57:47 (EDT) ___Bobby -:- Re: ITS NOT A BREEZE -:- Tues, Apr 22, 1997 at 17:04:30 (EDT) ___op -:- Re: ITS NOT A BREEZE -:- Tues, Apr 22, 1997 at 18:23:01 (EDT) ___bobby -:- Re: ITS NOT A BREEZE -:- Tues, Apr 22, 1997 at 19:16:07 (EDT) ___Jim -:- Re: ITS NOT A BREEZE -:- Tues, Apr 22, 1997 at 19:32:07 (EDT) ___JW -:- Re: ITS NOT A BREEZE -:- Tues, Apr 22, 1997 at 19:50:59 (EDT) ___Jim -:- Re: ITS NOT A BREEZE -:- Tues, Apr 22, 1997 at 19:57:13 (EDT) ___Jim -:- Re: ITS NOT A BREEZE -:- Tues, Apr 22, 1997 at 20:00:00 (EDT) ___Brian -:- Re: ITS NOT A BREEZE -:- Tues, Apr 22, 1997 at 20:48:56 (EDT) ___Jim -:- Re: ITS NOT A BREEZE -:- Tues, Apr 22, 1997 at 22:25:36 (EDT) ___old premie -:- Re: ITS NOT A BREEZE -:- Tues, Apr 22, 1997 at 22:27:47 (EDT) ___op -:- Re: ITS NOT A BREEZE -:- Tues, Apr 22, 1997 at 23:04:32 (EDT) ___old premie -:- Re: ITS NOT A BREEZE -:- Tues, Apr 22, 1997 at 23:14:36 (EDT) ___JW -:- Re: ITS NOT A BREEZE -:- Tues, Apr 22, 1997 at 23:45:08 (EDT) ___Jim -:- Re: ITS NOT A BREEZE -:- Wed, Apr 23, 1997 at 17:45:10 (EDT) ___Jim -:- Re: ITS NOT A BREEZE -:- Wed, Apr 23, 1997 at 17:52:13 (EDT) ___Jim -:- Re: ITS NOT A BREEZE -:- Wed, Apr 23, 1997 at 17:53:11 (EDT) ___Jim -:- Re: ITS NOT A BREEZE -:- Wed, Apr 23, 1997 at 17:56:58 (EDT) ___Jw -:- Re: ITS NOT A BREEZE -:- Wed, Apr 23, 1997 at 19:41:13 (EDT) ___Jim -:- Re: ITS NOT A BREEZE -:- Wed, Apr 23, 1997 at 20:22:34 (EDT) ___op -:- Re: ITS NOT A BREEZE -:- Wed, Apr 23, 1997 at 20:31:37 (EDT) Brian -:- Knowledge -:- Tues, Apr 22, 1997 at 00:23:31 (EDT) ___old premie -:- Re: Knowledge -:- Tues, Apr 22, 1997 at 00:46:15 (EDT) ___Bill -:- Re: Knowledge -:- Tues, Apr 22, 1997 at 01:32:55 (EDT) ___Bill -:- Re: Knowledge -:- Tues, Apr 22, 1997 at 01:56:05 (EDT) ___Bobby -:- Re: Knowledge -:- Tues, Apr 22, 1997 at 07:50:00 (EDT) ___Withheld -:- Re: Knowledge -:- Tues, Apr 22, 1997 at 11:24:05 (EDT) ___Deena -:- Re: Knowledge -:- Wed, Apr 23, 1997 at 00:30:20 (EDT) Jim -:- New Band Name? -:- Mon, Apr 21, 1997 at 23:23:50 (EDT) ___Bobby -:- Re: New Band Name? -:- Mon, Apr 21, 1997 at 23:34:37 (EDT) ___Deena -:- Re: New Band Name? -:- Mon, Apr 21, 1997 at 23:42:10 (EDT) ___Dave P. -:- Re: New Band Name? -:- Tues, Apr 22, 1997 at 04:08:39 (EDT) ___Deena -:- Re: New Band Name? -:- Tues, Apr 22, 1997 at 23:18:33 (EDT) ___Jim -:- Re: New Band Name? -:- Wed, Apr 23, 1997 at 17:43:18 (EDT) ___Anne-non -:- Re: New Band Name? -:- Wed, Apr 23, 1997 at 19:14:43 (EDT) ___JW -:- Re: New Band Name? -:- Wed, Apr 23, 1997 at 19:36:09 (EDT) JW -:- Real Damage -:- Mon, Apr 21, 1997 at 17:28:08 (EDT) ___Bobby -:- Re: Real Damage -:- Mon, Apr 21, 1997 at 18:22:16 (EDT) ___JW -:- Re: Real Damage -:- Mon, Apr 21, 1997 at 19:16:47 (EDT) ___Matt C. -:- Re: Real Damage -:- Mon, Apr 21, 1997 at 19:54:50 (EDT) ___Bobby -:- Re: Real Damage -:- Mon, Apr 21, 1997 at 20:13:33 (EDT) ___old premie -:- Re: Real Damage -:- Mon, Apr 21, 1997 at 20:19:07 (EDT) ___Jim -:- Re: Real Damage -:- Mon, Apr 21, 1997 at 20:31:33 (EDT) ___Jim -:- Re: Real Damage -:- Mon, Apr 21, 1997 at 20:32:34 (EDT) ___Bobby -:- Re: Real Damage -:- Mon, Apr 21, 1997 at 20:41:05 (EDT) ___Deena -:- Re: Real Damage -:- Mon, Apr 21, 1997 at 20:48:52 (EDT) ___JW -:- Re: Real Damage -:- Mon, Apr 21, 1997 at 20:49:21 (EDT) ___Bobby -:- Re: Real Damage -:- Mon, Apr 21, 1997 at 21:30:03 (EDT) ___Matt C. -:- Re: Real Damage -:- Mon, Apr 21, 1997 at 21:48:15 (EDT) ___old premie -:- Re: Real Damage -:- Mon, Apr 21, 1997 at 23:18:23 (EDT) ___Deena -:- Re: Real Damage -:- Mon, Apr 21, 1997 at 23:40:27 (EDT) ___JW -:- Re: Real Damage -:- Tues, Apr 22, 1997 at 00:20:24 (EDT) ___JW -:- Re: Real Damage -:- Tues, Apr 22, 1997 at 01:16:41 (EDT) ___Anne -:- Re: Real Damage -:- Tues, Apr 22, 1997 at 22:28:33 (EDT) ___old premie -:- Re: Real Damage -:- Tues, Apr 22, 1997 at 22:59:37 (EDT) ___Deena to everyone -:- Re: Real Damage -:- Wed, Apr 23, 1997 at 00:20:57 (EDT) ___JW -:- Re: Real Damage -:- Wed, Apr 23, 1997 at 00:37:42 (EDT) ___old premie -:- Re: Real Damage -:- Wed, Apr 23, 1997 at 01:33:04 (EDT) ___bobby -:- Re: Real Damage -:- Wed, Apr 23, 1997 at 07:45:32 (EDT) ___Deena -:- Re: Real Damage -:- Wed, Apr 23, 1997 at 08:48:20 (EDT) ___Bobby -:- Re: Real Damage -:- Wed, Apr 23, 1997 at 09:47:41 (EDT) ___JW -:- Re: Real Damage -:- Wed, Apr 23, 1997 at 11:23:47 (EDT) ___old premie -:- Re: Real Damage -:- Wed, Apr 23, 1997 at 12:52:02 (EDT) ___Bobby -:- Re: Real Damage -:- Wed, Apr 23, 1997 at 12:54:46 (EDT) ___bobby -:- Re: Real Damage -:- Wed, Apr 23, 1997 at 13:27:19 (EDT) ___Jim -:- Re: Real Damage -:- Wed, Apr 23, 1997 at 17:49:47 (EDT) ___Anon -:- Re: Real Damage -:- Wed, Apr 23, 1997 at 18:12:00 (EDT) ___Jim -:- Re: Real Damage -:- Wed, Apr 23, 1997 at 22:19:29 (EDT) ___Jim -:- Re: Real Damage -:- Wed, Apr 23, 1997 at 22:41:27 (EDT) Mili -:- Are You God? -:- Mon, Apr 21, 1997 at 14:04:53 (EDT) ___M -:- Re: Are You God? -:- Tues, Apr 22, 1997 at 16:02:36 (EDT) ___op -:- Re: Are You God? -:- Tues, Apr 22, 1997 at 16:11:11 (EDT) ___bobby -:- Re: Are You God? -:- Tues, Apr 22, 1997 at 16:20:41 (EDT) Mili Baba -:- Pro-Guru Stuff -:- Mon, Apr 21, 1997 at 10:06:24 (EDT) JW -:- Propogation -:- Sun, Apr 20, 1997 at 23:08:59 (EDT) ___Jim -:- Re: Propogation -:- Sun, Apr 20, 1997 at 23:21:54 (EDT) ___Bill cooper -:- Re: Propogation -:- Sun, Apr 20, 1997 at 23:57:11 (EDT) ___Bill Cooper -:- Re: Propogation -:- Mon, Apr 21, 1997 at 00:01:42 (EDT) ___Deena -:- Re: Propogation -:- Mon, Apr 21, 1997 at 09:23:06 (EDT) ___JW -:- Re: Propogation -:- Mon, Apr 21, 1997 at 11:47:51 (EDT) Deena -:- SKIP POSTS BY MILI -:- Sun, Apr 20, 1997 at 21:52:52 (EDT) ___JW -:- Re: SKIP POSTS BY MILI -:- Sun, Apr 20, 1997 at 22:12:57 (EDT) ___Mili Baba -:- Re: SKIP POSTS BY MILI -:- Mon, Apr 21, 1997 at 09:40:37 (EDT) ___Jim -:- Re: SKIP POSTS BY MILI -:- Mon, Apr 21, 1997 at 11:44:01 (EDT) ___Bobby -:- Re: SKIP POSTS BY MILI -:- Mon, Apr 21, 1997 at 12:48:45 (EDT) ___Mili -:- Re: SKIP POSTS BY MILI -:- Mon, Apr 21, 1997 at 17:37:19 (EDT) ___Deena -:- Re: SKIP POSTS BY MILI -:- Mon, Apr 21, 1997 at 20:03:55 (EDT) ___Jim -:- Re: SKIP POSTS BY MILI -:- Mon, Apr 21, 1997 at 20:25:13 (EDT) ___Bobby -:- Re: SKIP POSTS BY MILI -:- Mon, Apr 21, 1997 at 20:30:48 (EDT) ___Matt C. -:- Re: SKIP POSTS BY MILI -:- Mon, Apr 21, 1997 at 20:33:41 (EDT) ___Bobby -:- Re: SKIP POSTS BY MILI -:- Mon, Apr 21, 1997 at 20:36:10 (EDT) ___Anne -:- Re: SKIP POSTS BY MILI -:- Mon, Apr 21, 1997 at 21:03:44 (EDT) ___Bobby -:- Re: SKIP POSTS BY MILI -:- Mon, Apr 21, 1997 at 21:35:56 (EDT) ___Chris -:- Re: SKIP POSTS BY MILI -:- Mon, Apr 21, 1997 at 22:19:08 (EDT) ___Matt C. -:- Re: SKIP POSTS BY MILI -:- Mon, Apr 21, 1997 at 22:21:52 (EDT) ___Deena -:- Re: SKIP POSTS BY MILI -:- Mon, Apr 21, 1997 at 23:56:25 (EDT) ___old premie -:- Re: SKIP POSTS BY MILI -:- Tues, Apr 22, 1997 at 00:27:36 (EDT) ___Deena -:- Re: SKIP POSTS BY MILI -:- Tues, Apr 22, 1997 at 01:00:06 (EDT) ___Jim -:- Re: SKIP POSTS BY MILI -:- Tues, Apr 22, 1997 at 09:05:20 (EDT) ___JW -:- Re: SKIP POSTS BY MILI -:- Tues, Apr 22, 1997 at 11:07:04 (EDT) ___op -:- Re: SKIP POSTS BY MILI -:- Tues, Apr 22, 1997 at 12:54:35 (EDT) ___Chris -:- Re: SKIP POSTS BY MILI -:- Tues, Apr 22, 1997 at 14:47:49 (EDT) ___Chris -:- Re: SKIP POSTS BY MILI -:- Tues, Apr 22, 1997 at 14:59:15 (EDT) ___Chris -:- Re: SKIP POSTS BY MILI -:- Tues, Apr 22, 1997 at 18:54:38 (EDT) ___Chris in another dimension -:- Re: SKIP POSTS BY MILI -:- Tues, Apr 22, 1997 at 19:06:10 (EDT) ___Jim -:- Re: SKIP POSTS BY MILI -:- Tues, Apr 22, 1997 at 19:10:50 (EDT) ___x -:- Re: SKIP POSTS BY MILI -:- Tues, Apr 22, 1997 at 19:36:34 (EDT) ___x -:- Re: SKIP POSTS BY MILI -:- Tues, Apr 22, 1997 at 19:51:36 (EDT) ___Jim -:- Re: SKIP POSTS BY MILI -:- Tues, Apr 22, 1997 at 20:03:54 (EDT) Anon -:- My prayer -:- Sun, Apr 20, 1997 at 21:41:28 (EDT) ___Anon -:- Re: My prayer -:- Sun, Apr 20, 1997 at 22:05:24 (EDT) ___JW -:- Re: My prayer -:- Sun, Apr 20, 1997 at 23:11:05 (EDT) |
Date: Tues, Apr 22, 1997 at 01:29:10 (EDT)
Poster: JW Email: To: Everyone Subject: WHATEVER HAPPENED TOO..... Message: Does anyone know whatever happened to Barbara Kolodney? I heard a while back that she was one of those unlucky few OP refers to for which the Maharaj Ji cult did not work. Is that true? What about that super-neurotic initiator, Anne Johnson? I hope she went back to the kids she had abandoned to follow the lord of the universe. But she sure made a great cheescake and great lemon cookies. Also, is that nazi David Smith still running things in the guru-world? He was truly one of the most mentally sick puppies I ever met in DLM. I hope he got professional help for that. F. Adams? Who was Claudia's boyfriend before Raja Ji married and then divorced her? He was a nice guy. What happend to the businesses? Ranibow Grocery/Premark, the book buying business and wasn't there one or two more? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Apr 22, 1997 at 01:41:57 (EDT)
Poster: Bill Email: To: JW Subject: Re: WHATEVER HAPPENED TOO..... Message: Barbra left and has kids, David Smith was in Boston last weekend fund raising, I think Claudia died of aids from her NYC bisexual boyfriend. One of her kids was actuall mj's. You havent been around for quite a while. There was DECA aviation in miami and a host of small businesses.What are you doing up so late? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Apr 22, 1997 at 08:42:26 (EDT)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Bill Subject: Re: WHATEVER HAPPENED TOO..... Message: Bill, Are you serious about Claudia? And about her kid? How do you know? Jim Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Apr 22, 1997 at 11:27:58 (EDT)
Poster: JW Email: To: Bill Subject: Re: WHATEVER HAPPENED TOO..... Message: In my time zone, it wasn't so late. (The dates on the messages are EDT, we all function around New York time, you know.) As one of those middle-aged, negative, resentful people Chris refers to, I actually go to bed quite early. Spending all my waking hours carrying around a vendetta against the Lord of tne Universe can be very tiring, but we all have our crosses to bear. I'm glad to hear Barbara got out. But boy, she was a true believer when she was in. I will never forget her "beggars- can't-be-choosers" satsang at the ashram meeting at Hans Jayanti in 1980. Are you kidding? Did Claudia die of AIDs? That's very sad, especially for her kids. The last I heard someone I knew ran into her selling cosmetics in Miami Beach after she was cut off from the guru-dole. I was well aware of, and actually worked ("did service") at DECA, but I would never consider DECA a real business, it never made any money, just spent the millions in donations from premies to build expensive toys for the lord. I put it in the same category as "Travel Light," that premie travel agency that also never made any money, except for Joe Anctil, despite the fact that it had a captive clientele since all the premies were supposed to use it for the festivals. What is Mr. Smith raising money for now? Yet another plane? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Apr 22, 1997 at 12:47:36 (EDT)
Poster: JW Email: To: Bill Subject: Re: WHATEVER HAPPENED TOO..... Message: Golly, doubletake. Did you say that one of Claudia's kids was Guru Maharaj Ji's? I never heard that before, but then I have been out of touch. Is that really true? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 23, 1997 at 00:59:24 (EDT)
Poster: Deena Email: To: JW Subject: Re: WHATEVER HAPPENED TOO..... Message: David Smith is one of the few premies MJ trusts to carry out his wishes. He stayed with us when he was on tour in North America a few years ago. He had one video he showed in every city...over and over again and he said that is all he had watched for weeks. He was completely blissed out as he described how you can't hear this any where else and that no matter how many times he watched it it was new. Kinda a cute way to control the mind of an instructor eh. That is why blissed out (altered states ) doesn't turn me on anymore. I love clarity and feeling alive without that drug-like silly smirk type intoxication. But hey, that's my opinion. Bye the way, I was throughly blissed out by his stay with us...it was wonderful to have someone I could really relate to. He and I got along great. Needless to say that now I doubt he'd return my calls as promptly as he use to. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 23, 1997 at 12:04:07 (EDT)
Poster: JW Email: To: Deena Subject: Re: WHATEVER HAPPENED TOO..... Message: Deena, glad your experience with Mr. Smith was positive; I had some positive and some extremely negative experiences around him. But I'm not surprised that he could go around the country like an automoton watching the same video endlessly and obsess on it to the point of ecstacy. Does he really do that full time? Kind of gives me the creeps. But at least it seems like it's harmless in that I assume he has no authority over anyone anymore and is therefore unable to terrorize them. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 23, 1997 at 12:54:03 (EDT)
Poster: Anne Email: To: JW Subject: Re: WHATEVER HAPPENED TOO..... Message: While we're on the subject of Mr David Smith. I first encountered him in 1975 in Hollywood. He was by then already showing signs (as goodie-goodie-sexless-gangly-nerd-but-all-American-lovable-quaint ly jokey-drippingly-sincere-nevertheless-frighteningly -tow-the-line and capable of heavy satsang person) of being ideally suited for the job of recruiting unwitting and wide-eyed premies for Maharaji's more hard-line, and sinisterly misguided 'Pied-piper' aspirations.
Later (1977-78?) I was personally and privately interviewed by
him (after his promotion to Chief Officer for Ashram
recruitment)
in order to qualify for becoming a Kosher Ashram premie.
Smith may now be living in S.America under an assumed name but
when the War Crimes Commission catch up with him and the rest
of
'em (me included I'm afraid) he is certain to be given the
Maximum sentence for having been one of Maharaji's most
successful and enduring henchmen.
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Date: Wed, Apr 23, 1997 at 14:14:27 (EDT)
Poster: JW Email: To: Anne Subject: Re: WHATEVER HAPPENED TOO..... Message: Anne, thank you, I know it was not just me. In addition to the "henchmen" label, which fits, it appeared to many of us that Smith had a strong sadistic streak in him that could show itself on the especially vulnerable ( i.e. those under his control, the most vulnerable of the ashram premies, especially during his great ashram inquisition in 1981 when Maharaj Ji apparently told him to "clean up the ashrams.") This was troubling to me, especially when he told me that he truly believed that he was completely controlled by Guru Maharaj Ji and that anything that came into his head he should just do because it was divinely inspired (YIKES!). Even the other initiators used to comment that he needed professional psychiatric help. I saw in him what appeared to me to be a true delight in hurting people (at least psychologically). He also wreaked of uptightness, fear and paranoia, while at the same time talking about how beautiful the experience was. I told him that once too, and also that he needed psychiatric help for a sadistic streak. Incredibly, he just looked at me with those doe eyes and looked hurt. He just couldn't understand why I had a problem with his behavior when he was just an empty vessel of the lord of the universe. I guess I should credit him in some way. His gross inhumanity in the name of Maharaj Ji was probably the last straw that got me out of the cult for good. What is weird though, is that when he wasn't in a position of power, I kind of liked the guy, who came accross as this sort of "gee-whiz" all-american ordinary premie who just wanted to play tennis all the time and hadn't a clue what was going on. I do hope he got some psychiatric help. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 23, 1997 at 17:36:24 (EDT)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Anne Subject: Re: WHATEVER HAPPENED TOO..... Message: Annie, in these last days, when even Scott is talking about hosting a sanitized, censored satsang page, and good ol' boys like JW and David (ne Douche) are already to sgin up, and everyone's walking around with bullet guns, you got gumption. I like your style, kid. Don't go soft on me, will ya' dollface? Hey, you're not Anne Johnson by chance are you? Now THAT was a woman!
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Date: Wed, Apr 23, 1997 at 18:02:15 (EDT)
Poster: JW Email: To: Jim Subject: Re: WHATEVER HAPPENED TOO..... Message: Hey, Jim, my friend, don't attack me! Seriously, although I think Scott's idea is completely unworkable, in the long run, the more places there are where people talk about the fact that they have dumped the guru, for whatever reason, even if they are still afraid to directly attack the guru, because, well, maybe they want to hedge their bets in case when they go to the pearly gates he's standing there none too pleased, why that only helps. It might also bring some ex-premies out of the bushes, and we all know there are many thousands of them. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 23, 1997 at 18:11:17 (EDT)
Poster: JW Email: To: Jim Subject: Re: WHATEVER HAPPENED TOO..... Message: Also, Jim, try and tone down the sexism, okay? Also, "bullet guns?" Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 23, 1997 at 19:05:34 (EDT)
Poster: Anne Email: To: Jim Subject: Re: WHATEVER HAPPENED TOO..... Message: I like your style, kid. Don't go soft on me, will ya' dollface?
The fuck I will boy. And don't call me dollface again or I'll
rip your balls off.
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Date: Wed, Apr 23, 1997 at 19:36:17 (EDT)
Poster: Chris Email: To: JW Subject: Re: WHATEVER HAPPENED TOO..... Message: Also, Jim, try and tone down the sexism, okay? Also, 'bullet guns?' Why? It might be good for him to get his balls yanked by fearless Anne. Check out her love memo to Jim. They would make a great pair. For her collection that is. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 23, 1997 at 20:15:52 (EDT)
Poster: Jim Email: To: JW Subject: Re: WHATEVER HAPPENED TOO..... Message: Bullet guns is one of my favorite Maharajisms (??). Don't you remember? Sexism? I'm deaf.
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Date: Wed, Apr 23, 1997 at 20:20:15 (EDT)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Anne Subject: Re: WHATEVER HAPPENED TOO..... Message: Hey, fellas, now that's a dame! Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 23, 1997 at 20:45:04 (EDT)
Poster: x Email: To: Everyone Subject: Re: WHATEVER HAPPENED TOO..... Message: Does anyone know what happened to Glen Whittiker, that idiotic smiley English premie who was always around Maharaji? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Apr 22, 1997 at 01:09:25 (EDT)
Poster: Bill Email: To: Everyone Subject: ITS NOT A BREEZE Message: Its interesting reading what you all have to say. hooray Deena is around. Bobby is newly smpathetic,JW has interesting tales to tell. The plane is a Gulfstream 4 . 15 million. My wife has knowledge and practices but says she never thought he was lord. Luckily for me she didnt tell me that so I could slowly realize it myself. Being pulled out of quicksand to fast can rip off your arm. I wonder, if god were to ever manifest, which I dont believe is possible anymore, I think the most that creative energy could do for me is just to show me my life force and say feel this. Before I met maharaji I was a daily church go er. I had an affection for my friend. Im wierded out that I recieved this knowledge from such a problematic source. Frankly, I do find immense value in feeling my breath as I walk around the construction site or home or dealing with people. People always invite me to feel something worse. Im not sure feeling my breath has any drawbacks Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Apr 22, 1997 at 15:56:43 (EDT)
Poster: Douche Email: To: Bill Subject: Re: ITS NOT A BREEZE Message: No drawbacks whatsoever Bill. Breathing is right there alongside the Freedom of Information Act. But who are these people who are inviting you to feel something worse? And what are they asking you to feel? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Apr 22, 1997 at 16:08:43 (EDT)
Poster: old premie Email: To: Douche Subject: Re: ITS NOT A BREEZE Message: Maharaji just released a video called 'Standing on Your Own Understanding' I will not quote from the video because it is Maharaji's copyrighted property. But I can tell you that he says, basically, to have your own understanding, your own appreciation, your own feelings, your own experience. No one else's. And he doesn't tell you WHAT you are going to experience, either. I know you guys all want to see only the negative about M. I really can't see anything that you can diss about this message. Perhaps you might want to order the video - one of you, if you don't want to give any money toward the 'organization' and share it. In the meantime, there still are no paragraph breaks. Scott??? Are you there??? Can that get fixed??? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Apr 22, 1997 at 16:14:06 (EDT)
Poster: bobby Email: To: old premie Subject: Re: ITS NOT A BREEZE Message: if you know how to mark up text (html) you can get paragraph breaks like this
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Date: Tues, Apr 22, 1997 at 16:16:36 (EDT)
Poster: bobby Email: To: bobby Subject: Re: ITS NOT A BREEZE Message: use the angle-bracketed 'p' at the start of each paragraph Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Apr 22, 1997 at 16:37:21 (EDT)
Poster: op Email: To: bobby Subject: Re: ITS NOT A BREEZE Message: I don't know what you mean. I do a lot on word processing, mostly in Word and Wordperfect. Now I'm on a Mac. Maybe I'll experiment, and you guys will just have to bear with some pretty strange posts. This is a test. If it were the real thing we'd already be in heaven. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Apr 22, 1997 at 16:38:39 (EDT)
Poster: op Email: To: Bobby Subject: Re: ITS NOT A BREEZE Message: Nope. Didn't work. Can you explain again? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Apr 22, 1997 at 16:45:30 (EDT)
Poster: bobby Email: To: op Subject: Re: ITS NOT A BREEZE Message: use HTML code. That's the code that formats text and graphics for the internet. I can't show the code here because it will be interpreted. to make a new paragraph, like I just did here, put 'angle-brackets' (the characters above the comma and the period on your keyboard) around the letter 'p'. each use of this code will start a new paragraph
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Date: Tues, Apr 22, 1997 at 16:50:37 (EDT)
Poster: op Email: To: bobby Subject: Re: ITS NOT A BREEZE Message: Thanks I'll try it out here I'll have to look up HTML.
Never heard of it.
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Date: Tues, Apr 22, 1997 at 16:54:02 (EDT)
Poster: op Email: To: Bobby Subject: Re: ITS NOT A BREEZE Message: Wow! It works! By the way, when explaining the code, I think you could try writing it but leaving spaces between the characters. I'll try that here: < p >
Let's see how that works. Thanks very much, Bobby. Now we can go back to arguing.
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Date: Tues, Apr 22, 1997 at 16:57:47 (EDT)
Poster: bobby Email: To: op Subject: Re: ITS NOT A BREEZE Message: yaay! it worked! Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Apr 22, 1997 at 17:04:30 (EDT)
Poster: Bobby Email: To: op Subject: Re: ITS NOT A BREEZE Message: Well, I haven't argued with you ...yet (smile). I honor your feelings and your differences, as I honor most others here. (Actually I ultimately honor all, I just have problems with some manifestations.) Just one thing. I wish you were more forthcoming with
personal stories and experiences. I was happy to read some common
experiences and places we shared in the past. I felt hurt when
it seemed you weren't interested. Just some personal feedback.
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Date: Tues, Apr 22, 1997 at 18:23:01 (EDT)
Poster: op Email: To: bobby Subject: Re: ITS NOT A BREEZE Message: This web page just moves so fast. I've got my own archives of all we said - I'll look up some of your earlier posts to find out exactly what you were referring to. Of course I love sharing personal stories and experiences. I only wish I didn't feel as though I might be threatened every time I post one. And I do appreciate your respect for all sides. My own feeling is that there really aren't 'sides' in the real world. If we could remove all the veils, all the trappings, we're all moving puzzle pieces interacting with each other. And the motion that keeps it all moving is a force that can't be defined, but personally, I experience it as love. How we perceive that love is another matter. If we didn't have
all the separations, if we were all one - where would the fun be?
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Date: Tues, Apr 22, 1997 at 19:16:07 (EDT)
Poster: bobby Email: To: op Subject: Re: ITS NOT A BREEZE Message: OP wrote: If we could remove all the veils, all the trappings, we're all moving puzzle pieces interacting with each other. And the motion that keeps it all moving is a force that can't be defined, but personally, I experience it as love. Yes! Moi aussi. All a grand dream, played out in multiple layers.
Personally speaking this time 'round in a body has not been so much fun for me though. I'm working on lightness of being, as in the title of this thread ---- 'its not a breeze' NOT! You wrote: Of course I love sharing personal stories and experiences. I only wish I didn't feel as though I might be threatened every time I post one. Maybe you missed my eagerness to share personal stories
first time round. I posted a few and wanted more. You probably got
hit right away by untoward remarks. I know I did.
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Date: Tues, Apr 22, 1997 at 19:32:07 (EDT)
Poster: Jim Email: To: old premie Subject: Re: ITS NOT A BREEZE Message: This copyright stuff is a joke. You can quote him all you want. Trust me. It's only if you're using LARGE sections of some copywritten material, not for editorial comment but for profit, that you're going to get in any trouble. Besides, can you imagine the Lord of the Universe suing becuase his followers quoted him? That's right up there with Scientology. As for Maharaji's current drivel, who cares what he says now? How'd he get to be guru in the first place? Isn't that the only real question we have to address? What is this shit? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Apr 22, 1997 at 19:50:59 (EDT)
Poster: JW Email: To: old premie Subject: Re: ITS NOT A BREEZE Message: Maharaji just released a video called 'Standing on Your Own Understanding' I will not quote from the video because it is Maharaji's copyrighted property. But I can tell you that he says, basically, to have your own understanding, your own appreciation, your own feelings, your own experience. No one else's. And he doesn't tell you WHAT you are going to experience, either. I know you guys all want to see only the negative about M. I really can't see anything that you can diss about this message. Perhaps you might want to order the video - one of you, if you don't want to give any money toward the 'organization' and share it. In the meantime, there still are no paragraph breaks. Scott??? Are you there??? Can that get fixed??? Well, I don't think anyone can argue with that. You would have to be a total neanderthal to tell people NOT to have their own experience, but to have someone else's, and he has always said that the internal experience was indescribable. But do you really need GMJ to tell you that? I would think you could get the same thing from listening to that old Mamas and Papas song:"Make Your Own Kind of Music." And you can get the meditation technique from TM or even a relaxation seminar, although the leader of the seminar might not have such a cool name, and certainly won't be wearing a $5000 suit. I don't know of anyone who has ever said, I certainly haven't, that there is something wrong with the experience of meditation, your breath, your essence. I have never discounted the value of that and I appreciate the experiences I have had, and yes, continue to have. I think meditation is valuable. But, as I have said earlier, it is what came after that that is the problem, and apparently continues to be. As Matt said, the true purpose of the guru is to help you with that kind of endeavor, not to become an object of worship himself -- and as we all know, for quite a period of time, that is what Guru Maharaj Ji wanted to be, and became, for many of us -- an object of worship, not a true teacher. Maybe he has seen the light and no longer does that, but given his history, I would be extremetly skeptical. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Apr 22, 1997 at 19:57:13 (EDT)
Poster: Jim Email: To: op Subject: Re: ITS NOT A BREEZE Message: How convenient but alas, OP, perhaps too much so. What am I talking about? Why using 's and p's to make paragraphs, of course! No, seriously, I mean this. We got into Maharaji at a time when he clearly said 'Me, not them.' In other words, there was IN FACT a 'satguru.' There was ONLY ONE and Maharaji was him. These were presented as FACTS with 'sides' and everything. Was it wrong? Was it a lie? As for your feeling threatened, you should feel that way.
It's you natural heritage. You offer yourself up as an
innocent on Maharaji's behalf. You expect to be ridiculed, don't you?
Isn't that what you're here for?
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Date: Tues, Apr 22, 1997 at 20:00:00 (EDT)
Poster: Jim Email: To: bobby Subject: Re: ITS NOT A BREEZE Message: You can't cut a tomato with a dull knife. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Apr 22, 1997 at 20:48:56 (EDT)
Poster: Brian Email: To: Bobby Subject: Re: ITS NOT A BREEZE Message: You gotta argue with her! She's pretty thick-skinned and easy-going, so don't be afraid. If you don't argue, she might stop posting. I don't agree with a lot of what she says, but I enjoy reading her posts. Besides, I might ask her to marry me so that I can turn on the hot water in the kitchen sink when she's in the shower singing "Little Drops Of Mercy"...
Don't tell her that, tho... I wanna surprise her :)
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Date: Tues, Apr 22, 1997 at 22:25:36 (EDT)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Brian Subject: Re: ITS NOT A BREEZE Message: Brilliant! Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Apr 22, 1997 at 22:27:47 (EDT)
Poster: old premie Email: To: Brian Subject: Re: ITS NOT A BREEZE Message: You gotta argue with her! She's pretty thick-skinned and easy-going, so don't be afraid. If you don't argue, she might stop posting. I don't agree with a lot of what she says, but I enjoy reading her posts. Besides, I might ask her to marry me so that I can turn on the hot water in the kitchen sink when she's in the shower singing 'Little Drops Of Mercy'... Don't tell her that, tho... I wanna surprise her :) How did you know about Little Drops of Mercy? Not my shower song, but it still drizzles through my head - and I do have an ancient tape of it. Thank you so much for the
paragraph mark info, Bobby - now I can feel free to quote
messages again, too.
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Date: Tues, Apr 22, 1997 at 23:04:32 (EDT)
Poster: op Email: To: Jim Subject: Re: ITS NOT A BREEZE Message: You can't cut a tomato with a dull knife. whaaaaaa? cosmic significance about body and lightness of being???
please clue me in - the only thing I can make of this is: yeah,
but a dull knife makes it a lot juicier.
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Date: Tues, Apr 22, 1997 at 23:14:36 (EDT)
Poster: old premie Email: To: JW Subject: Re: ITS NOT A BREEZE Message: which is why it might be a good idea to see one of those videos and decide from there. We can talk all we want and throw everything from old darshan stories and premie nightmares to new age psychic cures around, but it's all hearsay, even if we try for honesty. I know that Jim watches some of the videos - it certainly doesn't seem to have washed his brain. And if you haven't been around in quite a while, it might be a good idea for you to catch up on your 'enemy'.
Obviously I'm not asking you to see a video and turn your life
around, or expecting that you will have a more welcoming
reaction
(notice I avoided 'positive' and 'negative') than in the past.
But you would have something of a more objective viewpoint.
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Date: Tues, Apr 22, 1997 at 23:45:08 (EDT)
Poster: JW Email: To: old premie Subject: Re: ITS NOT A BREEZE Message: You're right, it has been a long time, although I did see Guru Maharaj Ji, in person, in 1992. I am certainly open to seeing a video, can you get me one? How about whatever the most recent program was. I'll be happy to pay the postage. That's only fair. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 23, 1997 at 17:45:10 (EDT)
Poster: Jim Email: To: op Subject: Re: ITS NOT A BREEZE Message: Depends waht you want, I guess. Look, OP, you know what I mean. Don't you? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 23, 1997 at 17:52:13 (EDT)
Poster: Jim Email: To: JW Subject: Re: ITS NOT A BREEZE Message: No, JW, fair is you pay the full $30 or whatever. Look, it's not as if the money isn't going to a good cause. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 23, 1997 at 17:53:11 (EDT)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Jim Subject: Re: ITS NOT A BREEZE Message: Oh yeah, why not pick up a commemorative spoon or apron while you're at it? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 23, 1997 at 17:56:58 (EDT)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Jim Subject: Re: ITS NOT A BREEZE Message: Actually, wouldn't it be cool if all the cults put out commemorative spoons? There are collectors of this kind of kitsch. On the other hand, maybe collecting it itself could be come a cult. A hyper-cult! Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 23, 1997 at 19:41:13 (EDT)
Poster: Jw Email: To: Jim Subject: Re: ITS NOT A BREEZE Message: I decline. He already got my inheritance and 9 years of my income. I think he could at least give me one crappy video. Notice that OP has not been forthcoming in offering me one, either. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 23, 1997 at 20:22:34 (EDT)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Jw Subject: Re: ITS NOT A BREEZE Message: Go for the spoon. Remember the story of the devotee who served his master endlessly, blah, blah, blah. Finally he was granted a boon. Well, Maharaji thought they said 'spoon' and now he's selling them. Little Maharaji spoons. Really. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 23, 1997 at 20:31:37 (EDT)
Poster: op Email: To: Jw Subject: Re: ITS NOT A BREEZE Message: I decline. He already got my inheritance and 9 years of my income. I think he could at least give me one crappy video. Notice that OP has not been forthcoming in offering me one, either. So I get off line for a few hours and you guys are gossiping about me?
I might very well be able to get a video for you. Where do I
send it?
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Date: Tues, Apr 22, 1997 at 00:23:31 (EDT)
Poster: Brian Email: To: Everyone Subject: Knowledge Message: I want to clarify something that might not be coming across in my posts, printed text being flat and expressionless. I didn't set out to grind an axe with Sant Ji Maharaj. As I've said before, I've never spoken to him nor he to me. We were both born into a world that we will both die out of one day. I grew up attending a Lutheran Church in an American suburb, watching Mickey Mouse Club on TV with the neighbor kids after school. He grew up in an under-developed country, emulating a "perfect master" father, along with brothers who were doing the same. I set out in my late teens on a spiritual pilgrimage across America to somehow become the Messiah that I was taught the world was awaiting. I thought someone had to do it. I was helped to this conclusion by the miracle of modern chemistry. He was placed on the throne that his father had occupied all of his young life and told that HE was now the perfect master. He was helped to accept this by the in-born drive of a child to do what his parents do. I'm sure the adoration of his new devotees was also a contributing factor to a young boy. While hitching through Denver, I came across his 13-year-old face on the cover of the National Enquirer which reported that millions thought him to be the Son Of God. I was relieved of a heavy chore, and also very curious. I finally located a pamphlet in a Denver bookstore that was printed locally, which I bought and read. He referred to a "Knowledge" that he would freely give to whoever wanted it. I read ahead to the back of the book to see what it was. Then I went to the address of the people who had printed the pamphlet to point out that they had left out the Knowledge and to find out more. They invited me to eat dinner with them and to hear a discussion that evening. I enjoyed their company, fresh-baked bread, and tolerated the lentils. The discussion wound around vaguely as far as I was concerned, and I decided to stick it out to be polite and then leave for good afterwards. But someone began talking about "music", and I suddenly remembered something from my childhood that I had never talked about to anyone, nor heard anyone mention. I used to lay in bed at night and drift off to sleep listening to the most beautiful music - like full orchestras is how I remembered it. None of it was anything I had listened to anywhere but at those times. I came every night for a month and read all of the Guru's satsang that I could get ahold of. One passage caught me, since I was finding the wait for the Mahatma intolerable. Maharaji said that he could send this Knowledge to anyone "Special Delivery". I didn't know what it meant, but one night in satsang I prayed for this vague "Knowledge". I was instantly aware of nothing but my own existance as pure white light. No sounds, no other people in the room, no world. The effect of that experience has never left me, although I haven't repeated it since. It is the single lasting experience of my life. The Knowledge session was a let-down to me afterwards, as it only concerned meditation techniques. Because I heard of this via Maharaji and the DLM environment, I felt that the experience and the MJ/DLM were synonymous. The stated goal of the latter was to bring this experience to the entire world. I saw no greater reason to live than to contribute to this effort, and I went off and told as many people as I could something that was just too hard for most of them to accept. But many were interested. These people I could point to MJ/DLM. When Maharaji came to Denver in 1972, the emphasis was on getting the word out to as many people as possible. I was never into the Devotee part so much as sharing the experience of Knowledge with people. I did the pranams, arti, group meditations, etc, but all of that was external. You have to memorize 14 verses of arti to appreciate just HOW external [grin] and I'm sure many of you had that experience. It fell away easily. I was disappointed with the Montrose festival, but looking forward to Houston when there would be maximum news coverage and the whole world was going to blow wide open. It fizzled. I wandered off trying to figure out what to do now and retreated into the life pattern of job, marriage, children, retirement, death. Meanwhile, Sant Ji Maharaj was undergoing his own changes. As each one was reported in the press, I became more depressed to see that nothing had developed to bring about the worldwide changes that I had expected to result. I finally stopped caring. I still don't care what he says, does, whatever. But I'm left with something. And when I die I know that I'm leaving with it intact, as I was born with it, as I experienced it in that satsang session, and as comes to me as I fall asleep at night. I don't think it. I don't believe it. I just know it. No one told me it. No one made me memorize it. I didn't even come up with it on my own. I just AM it. What does it say about Maharaji? Or about Jim? Or about Old Premie? Nothing. It just is. And I would still like to be a part of other people having the same experience. But I can't bring that about. Maybe Maharaji can. Maybe he is. I can believe "YES" or "NO". But I can't find the pamphlets any more, people. The ashrams are gone. The satsang is silent. The videos are far less available than Termator 2. There are people tramping into the hills of Nepal with generators and televisions, while the inner cities have been abandoned. Maharaji dresses up like Krishna and flies a private jet over Hindus, while claiming to have ability to turn them blue and make them fly. The internet is a global means to argue over who is or isn't a fraud. And I have this woman calling me telling me that her life is meaningless and that there is no point going on. I'm afraid to point her in any direction, and afraid not to. She's just one of so very many... So, for me, it's about Knowledge. Not about Maharaji. My personal frustration is that, to the limit of my experience, they are somehow linked. And that link has been, and continues to be, closely guarded by people who should know better. Me. You. Maharaji. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Apr 22, 1997 at 00:46:15 (EDT)
Poster: old premie Email: To: Brian Subject: Re: Knowledge Message: Did you see my post to you below? About my friend who died? I don't know if it will help. Let me know. I've said over and over on this forum, I feel an incredible closeness to Maharaji. Not everyone does. Not everyone needs to. For a lot of people, the Knowledge is simply a key to innervision. IF YOU WANT TO. I don't care how much Deena rants about it being more subversive because the message is more subtle. His message is IF YOU WANT TO. I, personally, want to help him. I feel very close to him. I know a lot of other people who don't feel that way - they come to events and they see the videos and they go home. They practice going inside and experiencing the root of their own existence. I don't think I'm any higher or more saintly or any better a person or even a premie because I enjoy helping him. That's just my connection. Videos are not that hard to find. If you give me an address, I'll send you a catalogue. Somewhere else on this forum I talked about my experience when I received Knowledge. I had practiced all the techniques before, in one way or another, but without knowing that's what they were. I was blown out at the Knowledge session, but afterward all I had was the term 'cosmic parlor tricks' buzzing around my head. It took a moment of real surrender (no, Jim, not pranam and castration) to let go and find out that the techniques actually led me to a place I had only dreamed about, had longed for all my life. And by the way, Maharaji has not dressed up in his 'Krishna outfit' for quite a while. In the West it was known as a Krishna outfit, in India it is quite common for a master to wear such clothing. It doesn't mean he was impersonating Krishna. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Apr 22, 1997 at 01:32:55 (EDT)
Poster: Bill Email: To: Brian Subject: Re: Knowledge Message: Tell your lady friend to talk privately to god. remind her that she was put here in the hopes that she would enjoy herself. take her for a drive somewhere nice and show her that you are her friend and you care. Smile at her, feel yourself and feel whole and then you will give her hope and remind her that a good feeling does exist and is always acessible. She can ask god for help. Even though god is never going to show up in a body doesnt mean a kind and real power doesnt exist. We get down in the dumps but she can walk on the sunny side of the street again, and soon. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Apr 22, 1997 at 01:56:05 (EDT)
Poster: Bill Email: To: Brian Subject: Re: Knowledge Message: You mention when you were little. remember? you were feeling your breath. Thats the specialness of childhood. You can have that again. feel your breath like a sleeping baby. Be embraced and embrace your closest feeling. If god can be found , thats where we will feel what feels best. Im not going to dare say anything to this group that is pretending, or fake. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Apr 22, 1997 at 07:50:00 (EDT)
Poster: Bobby Email: To: Brian Subject: Re: Knowledge Message: That's a beautiful story Brian. I too am in a place of a sort of 'don't know' suspension. I've been this way for a long time, even in a way during my involvement with DLM. In 1969 I had powerful experiences including a near-death where I went into another dimension and encountered a Divine Presence. Most people don't relate because they don't know how real or precious this was. I have a fire inside to express my experience. Coming to terms with my experience means expressing my experiences. This is a long term path. I feel I know what you are talking about with your experience of 'pure, white light'. My search for meaning led me through Maharaji and as I have said I have no regrets. My search led me through other places including powerful seminars called Insight and near-death groups. I have taken gifts from each of these arenas. There are intelligences beyond reason. I know this. My spirituality has made it difficult to come to terms with being in a body on earth. Most people wouldn't understand this because they haven't gone through what I have gone through. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Apr 22, 1997 at 11:24:05 (EDT)
Poster: Withheld Email: To: Brian and everyone Subject: Re: Knowledge Message: Brian I can really relate to your post. I have expressed myself at length in an essay entitled 'Maharaji & gurus. Considerations.' It is in the 'Inward Self' section of this website. I would like you to read it. What I have said is very much in sympathy with what you feel I think. I hope that some of the clarity expressed in posts like yours (and others) will be published in a more distinct setting (like on the Journeys section etc.) or even through other media. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 23, 1997 at 00:30:20 (EDT)
Poster: Deena Email: To: Brian Subject: Re: Knowledge Message: Hi Brian, I wrote a long post and lost it...I was moved when I read what you wrote. My point isn't to deny people's feelings or belief systems. I think the es-cult member who said 'separate the message from the messanger' has a priceless bit of wisdom to share. Your friend is entitled to her choice of whatever message...and there are alot of inspiring and helpful ones. But dependence on well you know, what you find described on these pages, is not healthy and I think you already get an inkling of that. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Apr 21, 1997 at 23:23:50 (EDT)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Everyone Subject: New Band Name? Message: On a personal note (?), I need a new band name. What do you guys think of 'Who is Guru Maharaj Ji?' Jim Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Apr 21, 1997 at 23:34:37 (EDT)
Poster: Bobby Email: To: Jim Subject: Re: New Band Name? Message: How bout 'weiners in space'? ;) Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Apr 21, 1997 at 23:42:10 (EDT)
Poster: Deena Email: To: Jim Subject: Re: New Band Name? Message: I like the name 'NO GURU' Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Apr 22, 1997 at 04:08:39 (EDT)
Poster: Dave P. Email: To: Jim Subject: Re: New Band Name? Message: How about 'Fun Dimension' as an alternative to 'One Foundation'? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Apr 22, 1997 at 23:18:33 (EDT)
Poster: Deena Email: To: Jim Subject: Re: New Band Name? Message: I changed my mind (imagine that!). MIRAGE GEE much better. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 23, 1997 at 17:43:18 (EDT)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Deena Subject: Re: New Band Name? Message: Hey, not bad -- but how 'bout 'Miragy'? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 23, 1997 at 19:14:43 (EDT)
Poster: Anne-non Email: To: Jim Subject: Re: New Band Name? Message: How about 'Dad'
(Do you remember when premies called MJ and Marolyn- 'Mom' and
'Dad'? I could never see it myself.)
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Date: Wed, Apr 23, 1997 at 19:36:09 (EDT)
Poster: JW Email: To: Jim Subject: Re: New Band Name? Message: How about: "The Lord in Reverse" or "Cults are Us" or "Jim Bai" or "Lord of the Videos" Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Apr 21, 1997 at 17:28:08 (EDT)
Poster: JW Email: To: Everyone Subject: Real Damage Message: I realize I have used sarcasm here as a means to make a point and whether that is relatable to people or not, I don't know. But the real point I want to make is that Guru Maharaj Ji does have to take responsibility for what he has done, because what he has done has affected the lives of many people negatively. Maybe not everyone, and everyone has different experiences and views, and maybe he less destructive now that he was a few years ago, because he asks for less from people, I don't know. But I have seen enough damaged people come out of trying to dedicate their lives to Guru Maharaj Ji, dedication with all the inspiring sincerity that you can imagine, that I think someone should mention it. Here is one that comes to mind; I realize it is probably not typical, but it is one I will never forget. When I was living in the ashram in the mid-70s DLM sent an ashram premie, who was having some emotional problems, to where I was living and I was his roommate. [Believe it or not, I was considered a very stable, together ashram premie, and so I was often assigned to room with people who were particularly freaked out.] Anyway, this guy was very uptight and rigid. He meditated for about five hours a day, never missed arti or satsang, and did whatever service he was told to do. He loved Guru Maharaj Ji immensely and wanted to dedicate his entire life to him. Anyway, after a while he began to open up to me a little and I learned something about him. He told me that he was really having trouble with sexual desires and he had to be very careful because he might slip up on his celebacy vows. Anyway, one day I came into the bathroom and found that he was trying to castrate himself with a razor; he said he was doing it because he just couldn't deal with the sexual desires that his mind was throwing at him. I was able to stop him before he did much damage, and after some medical attention, he seemed okay. I tried to argue that he needed professional psychiatric help, but the line I got from the powers that be and the mahatmas was that satsang, service and meditation were the solution to absolutely everything. [That may sound strange to you know, but that was definitely the prevailing view then, and that is what GMJ was saying.] Sometime after that, he slapped a sister in the ashram for talking and laughing in the satsang hall, which was not allowed. [I can't remember whose agya that was.] I don't think he hurt her, but everyone could see he was unravelling. Anyway, after the slap incident, the powers that be in the ashram called the police and had him arrested, and he was committed to a local mental facility. I remember visiting him there. It was a true snake pit. He had soiled his clothes and he had been given drugs such that he wasn't sure who I was. Eventually, he was sent to go live with his father. Once later I called his father who told me that a few years earlier, this guy had turned over his trust funds and all his other money and possessions to Guru Maharaj Ji and he was just a little incredulous that after the cult got what they wanted from this guy, and he became too much trouble, they just abandoned him. It was really hard for me. I couldn't reconcile how someone who had devoted their entire life to the Lord of the Universe, even if we was a little strange, could be abandoned by the Lord of the Universe, especially when he was one of the most vulnerable. I guess that was one of the first indications to me that Guru Maharaj Ji did not know or care about what was happening to the people who were slaving away for him and who sincerely gave themselves to him. No matter how hard I meditated and did service, I never lost that feeling entirely. I wonder what they guy is doing now? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Apr 21, 1997 at 18:22:16 (EDT)
Poster: Bobby Email: To: JW Subject: Re: Real Damage Message: I agree that this is a very sad situation. I have seen many similar situations involving persons devoted to all sorts of people and spiritual ideas. Personally, I am unsettled as to what I think of Maharaji. I don't regret the time that I spent in his ashrams and premie houses. I grew spiritually. To me, the nature of the spiritual path is often difficult. I don't think you can attribute direct causality for the man's actions to Maharaji. People flip out for all sorts of reasons. Ashrams are like monasteries. I'll bet the same proportion of the monks have problems as with Maharaji's ashrams. In their callous behaviors towards their brothers and sisters, premies are and were quite capable of being every bit as cold and selfish as anyone else. I'm not trying to defend Maharaji per se. I think he acted irresponsibly on many occasions. But to give him the total blame for all the bullshit that went on with DLM and the Maharaji I believe is too much. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Apr 21, 1997 at 19:16:47 (EDT)
Poster: JW Email: To: Bobby Subject: Re: Real Damage Message: I didn't intend to blame Guru Maharaj Ji for all the insensitive and stupid things that his organization, his mahatmas and administrators did to this poor ashram brother or to other people who were in Divine Light Mission. That would be illogical and unfair. But Guru Maharaj Ji is responsible to the extent he set up the whole situation where he was asking for total devotion and surrender and where there were ashrams in the first place, making people vulnerable to the kind of stuff that went on in them. Sure there was valuable stuff, but there was also destructive stuff, as I and others have mentioned here. If that brother was not trying to surrender and devote his life to Guru Maharaj Ji, which Guru Mahrarj Ji had asked him to do, he never would have been there trying to stifle his sexual desires with a razor blade. Maybe he would have done something destructive elsewhere, who knows, but that doesn't change the fact that he was depending on GMJ to take care of him. Maybe that was a ridiculous thing to do, and in the end it turned out to be a ridiculous and stupid thing to do, but that doesn't mean that Guru Maharaj Ji does not share some ultimate responsibility for putting himself out there as this brother's lord and master. True, it doesn't let his other mindless, heartless, devotees off the hook either, but he remains at least somewhat ultimately responsible nonetheless. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Apr 21, 1997 at 19:54:50 (EDT)
Poster: Matt C. Email: To: Bobby Subject: Re: Real Damage Message: Bobby, The whole DLM organization sprang up too fast and filled itself with many naive persons. I suspect that DLM leadership had never really anticipated the ramifications of taking on so many disturbed people for life. Couple that with the attitude that GMJ was carefully managing all from his superior cosmic perspective really made the situation dangerous for weak people. The leadership of DLM...GMJ was responsible for accepting premies into the fold. Maybe not contractually or legally but certainly morally. The entire organization from top to bottom was just mismanaged. Why? Because the management was based on ethereal spiritual directives, subject to broad interpretations & abuse. DLM could have restricted their policy of accepting total committment by a premie. They could have been less ambitious and still served the public. When someone gives their entire life to the priesthood they are at least looked after untill their last day. I ask you, what community would tolerate and support an organization that took in the weak with the promise to heal & cure only to drain all their resources and then, cast them off. That's abuse of weaker individuals and blame rests with the top management of any org. Did you ever notice how Hitler seemed oblivious to the Final Solution. I do not know how to prosecute GMJ for all of the rip offs (intended or accidental). Class action suit? Nah. Our day in world court? dream on. But, I think that voicing & documenting such stories as JW's certainly helps to spread some real common sense. I for one wish I had read such an article back in 1973. I might have been more cautious. I was just plain lucky that I did not get more strung out on GMJ. I can tell you that I am very settled as to how I feel about GMJ & DLM et. al. I am very glad that I got out of that mismanaged & often abusive cult. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Apr 21, 1997 at 20:13:33 (EDT)
Poster: Bobby Email: To: Everyone Subject: Re: Real Damage Message: I'm glad the stories are being told here. I can appreciate the anger that some here voice. I have my own views, some of which I've not yet expressed. I'm sitting with my own conflicts. I don't feel the need for hasty conclusions. (What I don't appreciate is the ad hominems that some here express.) Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Apr 21, 1997 at 20:19:07 (EDT)
Poster: old premie Email: To: JW Subject: Re: Real Damage Message: I travelled in the early years to many areas, including some foreign countries. At nearly every stop, there were people who latched on to Maharaji BECAUSE they were mentally unstable and socially imbalanced. I don't know the case of your friend - he may even have been the same person I mentioned earlier - sounds like a very similar case. [By the way, there seems to be some problem on this page in getting paragraph breaks into the posts - can that be remedied? Scott?] Here I am not trying to make an apology for Maharaji. I am again stating a situation that I was aware of because I lived it. Please understand that. I do know that too many people refused to let Maharaji know about situations because they thought he would take care of things 'on another level.' A big sector of the Indian population that got transplanted here (i.e. the mahatmas) felt that Maharaji should not be disturbed with such material matters as depression, criminal elements in the ashram, etc. They refused to ever tell him about anything except that there were millions waiting for his presence on every shore. They exaggerated the numbers of people, the amount of money coming in, in hopes that Maharaji would look upon them and smile. And those of us who saw some of the problems took their cue. We were afraid to mention anything negative to Maharaji because that would not be respectful. There is no excuse for that. I saw Maharaji angry because people had been deceiving him about the state of affairs of DLM - trying to convince him that everything was rosy when in fact there were all sorts of problems. Maharaji was very specific about insanity. He insisted that those who were under medication MAINTAIN their medication and not receive knowledge until they were stable. I don't know if I came in late on this, and there had already been some incidents. I really believe that a lot of us (myself included) got caught up in notions we had about instant perfection, about heaven on earth, and thought we could ignore all the work that has to happen to bring about real change. We had so many lovely slogans, we had to live up to them. But I did have one situation, very early on, where there was a madman in a place of responsibility in one area of service I was doing. I fought with my conscience for a day or so, and finally did tell Maharaji about the situation. This was India 1971 - the man was not doing anything violent or aggressive, but he was putting the health of those living in the ashram in jeopardy by unsanitary practices. I only had to say a few words to Maharaji, and he took that man out of the position within five minutes. There was no resentment, no feeling that a trust had been betrayed - and Maharaji's action was swift and practical. I really feel that if more people had been willing to speak up during the dark ages, things might have gotten better faster. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Apr 21, 1997 at 20:31:33 (EDT)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Matt C. Subject: Re: Real Damage Message: Here, here, my good man! Here, here! (or is it 'hear'?) Lawsuit's nigh on impossible, at least in the states. Religious freedom, etc. At least I THINK that's the case. I'm really not an expert in the field. Maybe I should check it out. Hey Maharaji, if you're out there, what do you think? Yes? No? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Apr 21, 1997 at 20:32:34 (EDT)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Bobby Subject: Re: Real Damage Message: Do you know what an ad hominem is? I don't think so. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Apr 21, 1997 at 20:41:05 (EDT)
Poster: Bobby Email: To: Jim Subject: Re: Real Damage Message: Hah! You're right Jim. I was wrong. I always thought ad hominem meant personal attack. Instead it means appealing to personal considerations rather than logic or reason. How appropriate! Well, I learned something new today. Thanks. Thanks! Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Apr 21, 1997 at 20:48:52 (EDT)
Poster: Deena Email: To: JW Subject: Re: Real Damage Message: Thanks for sharing JW...I can't imagine that is easy to recall and post. I felt tears well in my eyes and my gut was wrenched. I don't get it though. What occured there was blatant cult activity. Why is MJ absolved of the blame? If he had the power to come and save, as he said and as his followers believed, then he must have been powerful enough to avoid these horrendous things his followers did. What I'm getting at here is that when premies devoted themselves in the ashram they had a relationship with MJ that wasn't explainable...they were connected because he was able to guide them. To this day he says the master and student are in a relationship where the master takes the student to a certain place. Not just when they see him physically. This is happening when they practise or watch videos. It is the magic he speaks of. Beyond the minds comprehension. Almost mystical eh? I quess I'm trying to say that the only reason I figure premies ( like my husband and others on this forum too) defend so adamantly is because he is attributed wiith an incredable Christ- like power. Premies may or may not deny this. Judeo-Christian upbringing causes that. If we were all in India it may be Krishna who he would be like...dah. So, why the denial of his ultimate responsibility if he was so powerful. Let alone his need to intoxicate with anything other than the third technique or what it use to be known as, Holy Name. In the books on cults I've recommended meditation is mind control.5 hours a day for someone possibily unstable to begin with is dangerous and it is documented over and over again. 1 hour a day is too much. And today MJ still advocates it . The premie who received knowledge last year ( under his control) has panic attacks and anxiety. No one knew, least of all myself,and yet she was put through the aspirant program which is supposedly designed (by MJ) to avoid mistakes the instructors made in the past. MJ boasts constantly about how well it works now that he is running the show. Like, someone so powerful to show me what is inside ( because we all have been told by him it is not the techniques in themselves ) isn't powerful enough to fiqure out that having so many devotees means losing the ability to guide them so that everyONE of them is ok. WHAT THE HECK ARE HIS BLESSINGS FOR AND ABOUT THAT HE GIVES TO THE PREMIES THAT HE CONSTANTLY REMINDS THEM OF HOW MUCH HE LOVES. WHAT THE HECK IS THIS GRACE, WHICH FOR PREMIES THERE JUST SEEMS SO DAMN MUCH OF, HAVE YOU EVER NOTICED. Sorry, just gets me so angry. The more I learn the more I realize. JW I wish you could see his PARTICIPATION and videos just for premies. You'd see the same push this year in those closed sessions as back in the old days, just a more subtle approach. The motive exactly the same....well I got carried away here. It's just that Maharaji HAS to take responsibility because he is not an eight year old child or a teenager...as an adult now he has had ample time to hear, see and know what has been happening all these years but he has chosen the cult his father chose for him. Plain and simple. Also the 3 aspirants that received knowledge here are completely dependent on videos for any of the care that MJ is so carefully giving nowadays. Big deal when one of them is isolated in a city with no other premies. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Apr 21, 1997 at 20:49:21 (EDT)
Poster: JW Email: To: old premie Subject: Re: Real Damage Message: But then, Old Premie, unlike India in 1971 when you had direct access, the vast majority of premies never even met Guru Maharaj Ji, who did not exactly make himself available to his premies either, despite the fact that he could have if he wanted to, and being the Lord of the Universe, if he asked for something, boom, it would have been done. I actually wrote to GMJ with the problem about my ashram roommate, mostly for me, because it shook my faith in him, but that was answered by some premie in the office of guru Maharaj Ji who told me to have faith and to meditate. [I was actually so programmed that I believed the response I got from the premie was divinely inspired, just like the bible, and that Maharaj Ji was watching over and protecting me and my roommate.] Maharaj Ji was aware that those letters were being answered that way, and was certainly aware of how unavailable an inaccessible he was to his premies. He did that on purpose, I think. It was almost like he would rather not know what was going on. He certainly was not interested in finding out who we were, or what our lives were like, or who we were as people, and he certainly was uninterested in letting us get to know him as a person either. I also think that was intentional, because he needed to keep the aura of specialness and divinity that personal contact outside programs and darshan lines tends to dispell. Instead, he just droned on about devotion and surrender and the initiators and mahatmas parroted what he said. It was a very sick and dangerous situation. I agree with Matt that I was lucky I came through as well as I did. No, Maharaj Ji isn't responsible for everything (despite the way he let it be said, and never denied, that Guru Maharaj Ji was "all knowing" (another line from arti), but that is another subject. JW Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Apr 21, 1997 at 21:30:03 (EDT)
Poster: Bobby Email: To: JW Subject: Re: Real Damage Message: JW said: He certainly was not interested in finding out who we were, or what our lives were like, or who we were as people, and he certainly was uninterested in letting us get to know him as a person either. I certainly agree with this. But most people are like this, aren't they? In this case I think Maharaji is like a politician. Politicians routinely enact legisation that affect many. They usually don't give a crap about anyone. Are they directly responsible for the harm they do to people's personal lives? Personally, speaking I never did feel a lot of love for or from Maharaji. He didn't impress me as personally caring. I looked for love in the premies. At programs, I was happiest hanging out with friends. Maharaji's satsang always bored me. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Apr 21, 1997 at 21:48:15 (EDT)
Poster: Matt C. Email: To: Deena Subject: Re: Real Damage Message: Deena, I know it must be hard for you. You were probably more programmed than I was. It must hurt to rethink your world view now that you have certain doubts about MJ. To this day i still find myself meditating from time to time. And when I do the thought comes to MIND that through GMJ's grace I received knowledge. But it was a preprogrammed response. It implies that he is orchestrating everything when I am centered on the word. That is called omniscience. GMJ's omniscience allows us to surrender responsibility for our actions to his wisdom. Supposedly he has a psychic connection that would make mid-night infomercials green w. envy. But in all honesty, I have seen only a few instances wherein I thought that a connection existed. And that connection was intermittant and garbled at best. Unfortunately, I have seen many instances where GMJ's guiding hand went out of control. His version of damage control was to either to convienently loose his omniscience and deny any responsibility or blame us as being unfit, or, to say that we just could not understand the complexity of the universe. In that way troublesome premies could be cast aside. In effect they were playing a very important role in life, we just could not understand what it was. So trust that GMJ will take care of everything was a real common arguement. A guru is supposed to help you end the cycle of reincarnation or at least get you intune with the world so that you are at peace with yourself and the universe. His blessings have not done so much good given the testimony I have heard. So he must not be a powerful guru. He is very mysterious and contradictory in his instructions. And in some ways he appears to be brutal in his approach to enlightenment. (Yes, I know Zen masters have sticks to beat the novices). But, basically he was and probably still is a bad guru. One who hides behind the fascade of omniscience. When you are omniscient you can do no wrong. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Apr 21, 1997 at 23:18:23 (EDT)
Poster: old premie Email: To: JW Subject: Re: Real Damage Message: >I also think that was intentional, because he needed to keep the aura of specialness and divinity that personal contact outside programs and darshan lines tends to dispell. Guess what? It was personal contact OUTSIDE the programs and darshan lines that gave me the most intense experiences of Maharaji. I'm not a group-mentality freak, I have never liked to join up to anything. In fact, for a while when I lived in the residence I didn't even get to many programs. It's simply clear that there are some people who perceive something in him, others that don't. If you don't feel that closeness, that student-teacher relationship on a very profound level, THAT'S FINE. There really is no judgment, no you're-going-to-hell, fire-and-damnation bit. But there are those who do. There are many who do. It's twenty years down the road and a lot has changed. We're all older and less caught up in the throes of the adolescent hormones. We live by retrospect and, presumably, deeper understanding. I appreciate that you feel cheated and need to understand what you went through that obviously took you in the wrong direction in your life. But bitterness and hatred really are your choice. There's also understanding, acceptance of where you've been, integration of the positive experiences in your life. Don't tell me there were none. You wouldn't have stayed so long if there weren't. I'm not trying to spout twelve-step stuff at you. And you're right. We don't know each other (or maybe we do? I might have been that crazed gopi in the darshan line in front or in back of you, or one of those weepy creatures sitting near you...) No - we don't know each other, and I don't want to make ASS umptions, but it seems to me that bitterness only gets you ulcers. You are not the only ex-ashram premies around. There are a lot of people who are very happy that they had that experience. And they don't all have glazed eyes - they are mothers, fathers, lawyers, actors, environmentalists, doctors, rich and poor, fat and thin, ugly and beautiful, ... you know. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Apr 21, 1997 at 23:40:27 (EDT)
Poster: Deena Email: To: Matt C. Subject: Re: Real Damage Message: Yes, omniscient was the word I was looking for...thanks Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Apr 22, 1997 at 00:20:24 (EDT)
Poster: JW Email: To: old premie Subject: Re: Real Damage Message: First of all OP, calm down. Remember holy name. So, I guess what you are saying is that what GMJ offers works for some people and not others; Cool. Too bad the guru and people like you didn't say that 25 years ago instead of saying it was the ultimate truth that absolutely everyone was searching for lifetimes to find. So, again OP, you still haven't answered my question: WHAT WAS ALL THAT STUFF ABOUT? (devotion, worship, kissing feet, total surrender, ultimate truth, ashrams, lord of the universe) If you attribute that to adolescent hormones and say it was just a phase and we have now grown out of it and we should just forget it, well I think that's dumb. Was it just a phase the satguru was going through? I would like to know because I didn't enjoy the trip and please, could I have my mony back? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Apr 22, 1997 at 01:16:41 (EDT)
Poster: JW Email: To: Deena Subject: Re: Real Damage Message: Deena, can you explain "PARTICIPATION" and videos for just premies? Are there different videos for premies that for people who haven't received knowledge? Does GMJ ever say anything about what happened prior to 1985 and why it's all different now? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Apr 22, 1997 at 22:28:33 (EDT)
Poster: Anne Email: To: OldPremie Subject: Re: Real Damage Message: Old Premie...you wrote - 'I appreciate that you feel cheated and need to understand what you went through that obviously took you in the wrong direction in your life. But bitterness and hatred really are your choice. There's also understanding, acceptance of where you've been, integration of the positive experiences in your life. Don't tell me there were none.' mon 21 real damage.
I think you'd have a hard time convincing victims of abuse that
they have a choice not to suffer degrees of bitterness and
hatred. It's easy to say but not so easy to do. I now feel put off meditation because of the association with Maharaji with whom I am currently disillusioned. It is hard to feel that even my meditational experiences were totally positive, even retrospectively, considering the madness of the rest of the prescription.
Please read the articles in the 'Inward' and 'Journeys'
sections of this website. Regarding 'But bitterness and hatred really are your choice.'
Jesus said 'Forgive your enemies' At least that 's what I was
brought up to believe. This is my experience. Yes, I am am quite bitter at times but I don't intend to dwell on it. My wounds however are real enough and take time to heal. I did not choose it to be this way. You are wrong about this I believe.
If someone digs a hole in the ground in front of you, as you
walk along unsuspectingly, and you fall into it and break your
leg, can it be said that you chose to fall into the hole? I think not.
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Date: Tues, Apr 22, 1997 at 22:59:37 (EDT)
Poster: old premie Email: To: Anne Subject: Re: Real Damage Message: First of all, there's no rationale in comparing Maharaji to the holocaust. Really. I do understand anger and bitterness. Read my post about a friend who recently died of cancer, and her husband's reaction. I also realize that there are stages in getting over a traumatic experience. Three of my best friends died the first year I had Knowledge (I don't know how long you've been around: they were driving up to Canada to see Mataji and the driver fell asleep at the wheel - 5 people were killed instantly, the driver was the only one who survived). That was hard to get through. I cried a lot. I questioned a lot. Maharaji wasn't there and Mataji didn't talk about it very much. I didn't go to the funeral, which would have been closure of some sort. I had only one place to go. Inside. It was really one of the most tremendous turning points in my life. I didn't read the Bhagavad Gita, where Krishna explains to Arjun that these people are already dead [read: are going to die anyway], I didn't read the Bible where Jesus talks about eternal life. I didn't even get to cry on very many people's shoulders. Remember the walkie-talkie? I experienced a connection to something so eternal, so real and infinite, that the pain and anger and confusion were soothed. Deena may like to think that this is mind control at the deepest level. I can't deny what I experienced then, because it still lives inside of me. I've said over and over on this site: I don't think I'm anybody special. I have my moments of insanity and egotism and certainly am nowhere near perfect. I'm not trying to teach anyone, either. I think the most we can do here is share what we have experienced. I don't know why I have so much faith. Perhaps it's because, in my case, it was never undermined. Or perhaps because I've always been willing to stick it out and see the outcome before making a judgment. I just can't resent the fact that my clothes were sold off while I was in the ashram. I never minded sleeping on the floor (in the residence I used to sleep behind the couch so that I could jump up if I heard Maharaji walking down the stairs). I didn't resent living on white rice and leftover potato chips and baskin robbins, or brown rice and lentils - depending on where I was living at the time. The experiences I had were always positive. Perhaps I am a carryover from another century, another place and time. Or maybe my years on the Lower East Side had already jaded my ideas of what a normal living situation should look like that having any semblance of middle class living would have seemed odd to me.
As usual, I've gone on too long, and gone off the subject. I
just wanted to let you know that there are some of us who went
through the whole trip and came out of it whole and even appreciating it.
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Date: Wed, Apr 23, 1997 at 00:20:57 (EDT)
Poster: Deena to everyone Email: To: Everyone Subject: Re: Real Damage Message: I remembered a trip in '82 when a stationwagon full of premies including 2 babies pulled all nighters to get from Canada to Miami to be with MJ. The driver of the night shift nearly drove off the road when he fell asleep at the wheel. It was a very close call,. a frightening experience. Everyone laughed about it the next day, felt it was MJ's grace that saved that carload. One babiy was one and a half years old and I was his mother. ...Thanks OP for bringing back the memory....and yet further proof of what I've been trying to express in my posts. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 23, 1997 at 00:37:42 (EDT)
Poster: JW Email: To: Deena to everyone Subject: Re: Real Damage Message: Deena, thanks for sharing that. Also, can you e-mail or call me or get me your number? Jim has my addresses. Thanks. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 23, 1997 at 01:33:04 (EDT)
Poster: old premie Email: To: Deena Subject: Re: Real Damage Message: Every incident seems to have two viewpoints. I just realized that if we were sitting around in a living room, sipping tea (caffein or herbal, your choice), we'd probably have a very different conversation. More emotion - maybe even more anger at the difference in opinions - and also more closeness. I'm not so sure this internetting is so healthy. It distances you from the people you're speaking to. But then, I've always been better at writing than at live speech - so for me it's a boon. Yes, we did a lot of very stupid things. Do you think Maharaji approved of travelling all-nighters? I remember his reaction about the accident I mentioned above. It was made a rule (yes, more control) that at least two people have to be awake in a car at all times. In my family, we still follow that. I'm glad you didn't end up a statistic. But why blame that stupidity on Maharaji? People have been killed going to rock concerts, to business meetings, on vacation, on church outings. All the same basic method. That's not unique to premies. Remember Maharaji's constant warnings NOT to 'test the
grace'?
He told the story of someone who actually crashed a van into
the
residence in England just to see if grace would take care of
him
in that situation. The guy did survive - nearly unharmed (the
van
wasn't so lucky). Maharaji never said that had been grace - he
basically said it was stupidity. I'll have to listen to the
tape about it and give you an exact quote.
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Date: Wed, Apr 23, 1997 at 07:45:32 (EDT)
Poster: bobby Email: To: old premie Subject: Re: Real Damage Message: About the folks killed on the way to Canada. Yes I remember that well. I knew Ken pretty well. And I knew Dianne and went to her
Quaker funeral celebration which was really beautiful. Ken was
the first premie I met, just before Maharaji first came to NYC.
I lived just outside NYC in Elizabeth. My dad's printshop printed
the Hunter College program flyers.
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Date: Wed, Apr 23, 1997 at 08:48:20 (EDT)
Poster: Deena Email: To: OP Subject: Re: Real Damage Message: OP did you ever notice that you've apologised a few times now for not realizing that I am a sensitive person with real feelings? That is what Jim, JW etc. are too, There has been abuse and for someone who can see the abuse that exists or existed that is clear But sometimes if you are in it, you can't admit it. Battered women experience this all the time. That is what Anne or Anon was getting at with the Holocust analagy. Which, by the way, was very well expressed and appreciated. You seem to be (not unlike my hubbie) personally slandered and hurt by the attacks on MJ's credabiliy. These questions and doubts and ruminations are based on people's personal pain and suffering. Not a revenge or campaign to bolster persoal egos.Our anger at times may give that perception. But as real as your feelings are, and as valid, equally so are the ones of the people who are trying to express the realizations they've come to. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 23, 1997 at 09:47:41 (EDT)
Poster: Bobby Email: To: Deena Subject: Re: Real Damage Message: Hi Deena, I respect your expressions and understand well your pain. There are some here however, who unapologetically continue to slander rather maliciously, not just Maharaji, but those who happen to think differently than they do. You stated:
There is no doubt some pain and suffering, perhaps a great deal. However, there seems to me to be quite a bit of revenge and unacceptable attacking going on. I left the regard of Maharaji as my satguru many years ago. However, in no way do I return to a society of 'normal' thinking. In my opinion our society, including the commonly accepted and prevailing modes of thought and action, is highly toxic and dysfunctional. I think the 'anti-cult' way of thought is in itself highly cultic. The crap in the world continues. Virtually all of us are subjected to it. Many, many are experiencing the effects of this crap even as I write. I have experienced spiritual realities first hand. My life work is to attempt to express and embody what I have experienced. Unlike you, Deena, I didn't have a 'gopi' relationship with Maharaji, nor even a master/disciple. The Divine Presence being that I experienced during my near-death experience in 1969 has not manifested as far as I know. I respectfully listen to personal accounts of Divine encounters in all sorts of ways. Some of these accounts touch me very deeply indeed. Some of these encounters are with extraterrestrial energies. Many would regard me as a 'kook', even psychotic. I no longer try to persuade anyone, nor care so much what others think. I gladly join the ranks of the kooks, outsiders, abductees, madmen and buddhists. I wish their were more of us. I posted the Ginsberg poem to try to flush us out. Try to understand what Ginsberg says so eloquently. Maharaji always seemed rather materialistic to me. On the other hand, most people can't relate to the extremes of spiritual expression. For me, on balance, Maharaji did more good than harm. It may even be, contrary to what many think here, that he's done more good than harm to society at large. Sorry for those here who are in pain. As the Buddists say: dukkha -- suffering exists. This is the first noble truth. And, there is a way beyond suffering.
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Date: Wed, Apr 23, 1997 at 11:23:47 (EDT)
Poster: JW Email: To: Bobby Subject: Re: Real Damage Message: Bobby, I think your characterization of the world as all "crap" is a bit simplistic. In my experience reality is not that Manachean. Both "crap" and "truth" exist in the world and are to some extent in the eye of the beholder. While you may be someone who never devoted himself to the guru, and hence escaped relatively unscathed, that doesn't mean that you should denegrate the experiences of those of us who were truly damaged by what Guru Maharaj Ji did to us. I am not on a vendetta. I do not care whether people follow the guru or not. I do, however, care that he not get away with completely repackagaing himself and pretend like he has no responsibiliy for what he did to people. He can't just take all the credit and none of the blame. At least I feel compelled to say my piece because of my personal values as a human being. I am a true believer in justice, and that is just simple justice. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 23, 1997 at 12:52:02 (EDT)
Poster: old premie Email: To: bobby Subject: Re: Real Damage Message: Ken was one of my best friends from way before I met Maharaji. I knew him from Antioch college days. Diane was the person most instrumental in my sticking around before Maharaji arrived in New York. She inspired me in a way none of the other premies had been able to - she was devotional, but not fanatical - down to earth and spiritual at the same time. Joy and I spent a lot of time together in India - she was one of my tent-mates at Hans Jayanti. Maharaji really had a good time with Ken. Among other memories, the time Ken was playing the accordion at a program, and he slid backwards so that he ended up lying flat on his back - still playing, never missed a beat. Maharaji laughed and laughed.
I have a few old pictures of Ken - and actually he shows up in
at least one of the videos released last summer: outside the house
M was staying in in DC, accordion and all.
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Date: Wed, Apr 23, 1997 at 12:54:46 (EDT)
Poster: Bobby Email: To: JW Subject: Re: Real Damage Message: I certainly didn't mean to appear as though I thought that the world was all crap. I just meant that there is a lot of crap in a lot of forms. Also, Truth and Beauty exists in multitudinous expressions. I always liked Ram Dass' analogy of the mountaintop, where there is the perfection of view -- the incredible vistas, the clarity, the vastness. On this mountaintop in the snow there is blood. There is suffering and there is compassion. There is suffering in all the manifestations. In my view, Maharaji went along for the ride with the Master trappings. He still continues this. He appears to be deluded and hallucinting. I don't ascribe the degree of culpability that you do. Once again I say, that I don't denigrate at all the
experiences of others, including the feelings of harm and being
ripped off. Rage and rant all you want, but please don't direct
your rage at those of us who still sit with the grand puzzle of
it all.
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Date: Wed, Apr 23, 1997 at 13:27:19 (EDT)
Poster: bobby Email: To: old premie Subject: Re: Real Damage Message: Yes I remember Ken's accordian. He loved music. He came over to my house in Elizabeth and joyed over playing the consumately orchestrated music of the Beach Boys as performed on *Pet Sounds* And now I remember that Joy was one of the ones who died. Please let me know who you are privately by email. I promise to respect the confidentiality of your identity. bobby@ptd.net
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Date: Wed, Apr 23, 1997 at 17:49:47 (EDT)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Deena to everyone Subject: Re: Real Damage Message: Deena, I just have to say that another convoy, this time from
Edmonton, wasn't so lucky. They DID lose their baby in the
crash. Of course, we placed the child in Maharaji's heaven at
the program.
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Date: Wed, Apr 23, 1997 at 18:12:00 (EDT)
Poster: Anon Email: To: old premie Subject: Re: Real Damage Message: First of all, there's no rationale in comparing Maharaji to the holocaust. Really. Apart from the fact that in both cases one man’s megalomania succeeded in adversely effecting the lives of many people. I do understand anger and bitterness. Read my post about a friend who recently died of cancer, and her husband's reaction. I also realize that there are stages in getting over a traumatic experience. Am I missing something here. With due respect , I fail to see what your friends death has got to do with my feeling angry and bitter about being confined to Maharaji’s ashram for the best part of my youth. Maharaji had little or no responsibility for these deaths as far as I can see. This reminiscing about your premie friends and (in this case) their tragic demise is understandable but what about all the far more contentious points we are delineating over and over? Remember the walkie-talkie? I experienced a connection to something so eternal, so real and infinite, that the pain and anger and confusion were soothed. Deena may like to think that this is mind control at the deepest level. I can't deny what I experienced then, because it still lives inside of me.
So I suppose your conclusions about that experience you
describe
are that it was unmistakably the work of Maharaji’s magic power
.
Hmmm. I'm not trying to teach anyone, either. I think the most we can do here is share what we have experienced. I don't know why I have so much faith. Perhaps it's because, in my case, it was never undermined. Or perhaps because I've always been willing to stick it out and see the outcome before making a judgment. That’s how it works. You suspend your better judgement (trendily) and give MJ and your interpretations of your inner experiences the benefit of the doubt until one day something strikes your buttock and you lift your ostrich-like head out of the sand for the first time in years. Then you realise the meaning of regretting (that's a gentler word than 'resenting') years spent in denial. I just can't resent the fact that my clothes were sold off while I was in the ashram. I never minded sleeping on the floor (in the residence I used to sleep behind the couch so that I could jump up if I heard Maharaji walking down the stairs). I didn't resent living on white rice and leftover potato chips and baskin robbins, or brown rice and lentils - depending on where I was living at the time.
No, you big silly. Nor did I. Those sort of things pale into
insignificance for me. My gripes are that I dedicated my entire
time to an incredibly boring and delusive life to which I was
really unsuited. I never saw my family (until my Dad’s death) ,
I
helped to peddle and promote Maharaji as theMaster. Gave him
all
my earnings etc. etc.(that bothered me morally when Isaw where
the money went ) The experiences I had were always positive. Perhaps I am a carryover from another century, another place and time. Or maybe my years on the Lower East Side had already jaded my ideas of what a normal living situation should look like that having any semblance of middle class living would have seemed odd to me. As usual, I've gone on too long, and gone off the subject. I just wanted to let you know that there are some of us who went through the whole trip and came out of it whole and even appreciating it.
Well my experiences were honestly not all positive. Frankly I
am
baffled how any premie can honestly suggest that it has been
an
entirely positive experience. It sounds like wishful thinking
to
me. I know a number of really blatantly screwed up old premies
who tiresomely insist that Knowledge and MJ keep them in great
shape. They are clearly not telling the truth, believe me.
Maybe you are like them. Maybe not.
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Date: Wed, Apr 23, 1997 at 22:19:29 (EDT)
Poster: Jim Email: To: old premie Subject: Re: Real Damage Message: OP, my dear, if he'd never pitched the 'grace' thing to start with, we wouldn't have been so confused. Come on, you know that! Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 23, 1997 at 22:41:27 (EDT)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Bobby Subject: Re: Real Damage Message: What slander? Or is that another word you're misusing? Really, Bobby, what have I called you? Certainly not
'kook,
outsider, abductee (well, I guess I did call you an abductee a
bit), madman or buddhist'. You're losing it, friend. Why not
just chill out a bit and enjoy the wonderful reasoning
faculties
you've got?
|
Date: Mon, Apr 21, 1997 at 14:04:53 (EDT)
Poster: Mili Email: To: Everyone Subject: Are You God? Message: I just remembered the anecdote that M related, when a person stopped in front of him in the darshan line and asked him, - Are you God? Maharaji asked him: - If I told you I am God, would you believe me? - No. - Then why should I tell you I am God, anyway? I love it when he does things like that. - Mili Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Apr 22, 1997 at 16:02:36 (EDT)
Poster: M Email: To: Mili Subject: Re: Are You God? Message: !-) Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Apr 22, 1997 at 16:11:11 (EDT)
Poster: op Email: To: M Subject: Re: Are You God? Message: Now THIS one I might believe... Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Apr 22, 1997 at 16:20:41 (EDT)
Poster: bobby Email: To: op Subject: Re: Are You God? Message: Reminds me of the Flakey Foont meets 'God' aka Maharaji eating a cheeseburger in Zap comic #5. Illustrated by R. Crumb. Came out circa 74. Anyone see that? It's a classic. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Apr 21, 1997 at 10:06:24 (EDT)
Poster: Mili Baba Email: To: Everyone Subject: Pro-Guru Stuff Message: The following is a compilation of thoughtful ideals, spiritual philosophies, tranquil thoughts, peaceful poems, and inspiring phrases. They are relaxing and intellectually stimulating, while having a humourous quality that personifies subtlety itself. Enjoy.... Let noble thoughts come from every side. --Rig Veda To see the world in a grain of sand, and heaven in a wild flower, hold infinity in the palm of your hand and eternity in an hour. -- William Blake, "Auguries of Innocence." What is in my heart is the same as what is in yours; That which is everywhere. -- Anonymous That in which this entire universe is established, to which it pertains, out of which it arises, for which it exists, by which it comes into being, and which it really is, That is the Self-Existent Reality, the Supreme Truth. Let us worship that in the Heart. -- Sri Ramana Maharshi. The epitome of the human realm is to be stuck in a huge traffic jam of discursive thought. -- Chogyam Trungpa, "The Myth of Freedom." If your mind is empty, it is always ready for anything. In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities; in the expert's mind, there are few. -- Shunryu Suzuki, "Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind." The foolish man seeks happiness in the distance; The wise one grows it under his feet. -- James Oppenheim A raindrop, dripping from a cloud, Was ashamed when it saw the sea. `Who am I where there is a sea?' it said. When it saw itself with the eye of humility, A shell nurtured it in its embrace. -- Saadi of Shiraz (c. 1200 AD) Every system of thought postulates the three fundamentals: individual, God and world. Only one appears as all three. It is remi so long as there is an ego-sense that one says they are really three. The best thing is to renounce the ego-sense, and remain in the One True State. Thus transcending all thought, through intense devotion, remaining in the Real Being, one realises the very essence of the Supreme. -- Sri Ramana Maharshi. The intelligent man who is proud of his intelligence is like the condemned man who is proud of his large cell. -- Simone Weil, "A Life." In all things it is better to hope than to despair. -- Goethe. It is in men as in soils where sometimes there is a vein of gold which the owner knows not of. -- Swift Such pasts are not diminished distances, perspective vanishing points, but not burst open suddenly by gusts that seek to blow the heart out... -- Sir Stephen Spender Plough with truth. Plant the seed of desire for knowledge. Irrigate the mind with the water of patience. Supervise your work by introspection and self-analysis. And build the fence of right conduct and rules. Nothing else is required to attain eternal bliss. -- Tirumurai, Hindu Texts. Be of good hope in the face of death. Believe in this one truth for certain, that no evil can befall a good man either in life or death, and that his fate is not a matter of indifference to the gods. -- Socrates Perpetual inspiration is as necessary to the life of unken man holiness and happiness as perpetual respiration is necessary to animal life. -- Andrew Bonar Law The eyes do not see Him, speech cannot utter Him, the senses cannot reach Him. He is to be attained neither by austerity nor by sacrificial rites. When through discrimination the heart has become pure, then, in meditation, the Self is revealed. -- Atharva Veda, Mundaka Upanishad The highest form of grace is silence. -- Swami Chinmayananda. ...And see that nothing in thy working mind remain but a naked intent stretching unto God-- not clothed in any special thought of God in himself, or any of His works, but only that He is as He is.... -- The Cloud of Unknowing. Out of purity and silence come the words of power. -- Swami Chinmayananda. Let there be no neglect of the duties to the Gods and the fathers. Be one to whom the mother is a God. Be one to whom the father is a God. Be one to whom the Guru is a God. Be one to whom the guest is a God. --Krishna Yajur Veda, Taittiriya Upanishad 1.11.1-2 The secret of health for both mind and body is not to mourn for the past, not to worry about the future, or not to anticipate troubles, but to live the present moment wisely and earnestly. -- Gautama Buddha. There is a pleasure in these pathless woods, There is a rapture on the lonely shore, There is a society, where none intrudes By the deep sea, and music in it's roar. -- Lord Byron, "Childe Harold's Pilgrimage." As oil in sesame seeds, as butter in cream, as water in river beds, as fire in friction sticks, so is the Atman grasped in one's own self when one searches for Him with truthfulness and austerity. --Krishna Yajur Veda, Svetasvatara Upanishad 1.15 As animals are controlled using leashes, the mind is restrained and absorbed by regulation of breath. This form of Yoga is a device for effecting absorption. For mind and life-breath (prana), expressed in thought and action, diverge and branch out, but they spring from a single root. When the the mind is fixed on a single point, and gets gets absorbed by breath-restraint, the mind will die (i.e. it's form will perish). The great Yogi whose mind is thus extinguished, has no karma, as he has attained his true nature in the Self (Brahman). -- Sri Ramana Maharshi. Truth is the Supreme, the Supreme is Truth. Through Truth men never fall from the heavenly world, because Truth belongs to the saints. Therefore, they rejoice in Truth. -- Mahanarayana Upanishad May quietness descend upon my limbs, my speech, my breath, my eyes, my ears; May Brahman [The Supreme] show Himself to me. -- Invocation, Chandogya Upanishad God is a comic playing to an audience that's afraid to laugh. -- Voltaire Supported by whose protection heaven and earth, shining brightly and inspired in their spirit, manifest this glory, with whose effulgence does the risen sun shine forth? To whom else, besides that giver of happiness, can we offer all our devotion? -- Rig Veda Samhita The mark of your ignorance is the depth of your belief in injustice and tragedy.... What the caterpillar calls the end of the world, the master calls a butterfly. -- Richard Bach Introspect daily, detect diligently, negate ruthlessly. -- Swami Chinmayananda. The Divine manifests itself in many ways, sometimes as a forest fire and sometimes as a candle flame. That is the nature of creation. -- Nancy Patchen. He is Light within you; to know how to reach Him is true path of becoming; if you know thus, you know contradiction none; that is path supreme, your goal's end; they are but folks poor in spirit that know not merging in Light Divine. -- Tirumantiram 1547 Hindu Texts. Since we perceive the world in all its forms, we must simultaneously agree that there is a Power which is capable of becoming multiple. The picture of name and form, he who sees it, the canvas on which it is painted (based) and the light that illumines it are all Oneself. -- Sri Ramana Maharshi. Let the stronger man give to the man whose need is greater; let him gaze upon the lengthening path of life. For riches roll like the wheels of a chariot, turning from one to another. -- Rig Veda Remember, "Even This Will Pass Away." -- Swami Chinmayananda. A human being is a part of a whole, called by us "universe", a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings as something separated from the rest... a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and to affection for a few persons nearest to us. Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty. -- Albert Einstein Being happy only in one's own Self, considering oneself as the Self, one should perceive oneself as the Self, understanding oneself as the Self. Oneself satisfied in one's own Self, oneself filled up by one's own Self, one should reduce oneself to ashes. Nothing exists besides the Self. -- Ribhu Gita And then there is silence. Luminous silence. Silence. -- Laura Huxley. In all adversities there is always in its depth, a treasure of spiritual blessings secretly hidden. -- Swami Chinmayananda. The thought 'I-am-the-body' is the thread on which are strung together various thoughts. Questioning within and enquiring, "Who am I ?" And "Whence this thought ?", all other thoughts vanish. And as the true "I," within the heart-cave, the Self shines of its own accord. Such Self-awareness is the only Heaven; This stillness, this abode of bliss. -- Sri Ramana Maharshi. Be as the still mountain; Move like the great river. -- Lao Tse "Tao Te Ching" Even as the radiance of the sun enlightens all regions, above, below, and slantwise, so that only God, glorious and worthy of worship, rules over all His creation. -- Krishna Yajur Veda, Svetasvatara Easy for all to offer in worship a green leaf to the Lord. Easy for all to give a mouthful to the cow. Easy for all to give a handful when sitting down to eat. Easy for all to speak pleasant words to others. --Tirumantiram An act of goodness is of itself an act of happiness. No reward coming after the event can compare with the sweet reward that went with it. -- Maurice Maeterlinck. In everything the middle course is best: all things in excess bring trouble to men. -- Plautus. Under whatever name and form one worships That which has no name and no form, it is only a means of perceiving It. To know the truth of one's Self as the True reality, and merge and become One with It is the only true Perception/Realization/Liberation. Understand this! -- Sri Ramana Maharshi. There is no place to seek the mind; it is like the footprints of birds in the sky. -- Zenrin "The Gospel according to Zen." Silence is the garden of meditation. -- Ali "The Maxims of Ali." He whose pure mind turns inward and searches whence does this 'I' arise, knows the Self and merges in You, the Lord, as a river into the sea. -- Sri Ramana Maharshi. Surrender to Him and abide by His will whether He appears or disappears; await His pleasure. If you ask Him to do as you please, it is not surrender, but command. You cannot have Him obey you and yet think you have surrendered. He knows what is best, when and how. Leave everything entirely to Him. The burden is His. You no longer have any cares. All your cares are His. That is surrender. That is Devotion. -- Sri Ramana Maharshi. Paradise is the prison of the sage, as the world is the prison of the believer. -- Yahja Mu'adh al-Razi Islamic texts. To talk goodness is not good... Only to do it is. -- Chinese Proverb. O Mother, auspicious be thy woodland, thy snowclad mountains and thy ever-running streams. May the Earth pour out her milk for us, a mother unto me, her son. -- Prithvi Sukta, Atharva Veda A man is the facade of a temple wherein all wisdom and all good abide. What we commonly call man, the eating, drinking, planting counting man, does not, as we know him, represent himself, but misrepresents himself. Him we do not respect; but the soul, whose organ he is, would let it appear through his actions, would make our knees bend.... We lie open on one side to the depths of spiritual nature, to all attributes of God. -- Ralph Waldo Emerson, "The Over-Soul." The world is full of uneasy believers in an outward security. Their bitter thoughts are like scars on their foreheads. The One who gave us air and milk from our first breath knows how to provide day by day for His devotees. -- Sri Ramana Maharshi. The Way of Heaven does not compete, and yet it skillfully achieves victory. It does not speak, and yet it skillfully responds to things. It comes to you without your invitation. -- Lao-Tse "Tao Te Ching." Action, which springs from the mind, from speech, and from the body, produces either good or evil results; by actions are caused the conditions of men, the highest the middling and the lowest. A man obtains the results of a good or evil mental act in his mind; that of a verbal act in his speech; that of a bodily act in his body. -- Laws of Manu 12.3,8,9 Hindu Texts. Nothing is impossible for those who act after wise counsel and careful thought. -- Turuvalluvar, The Kural No. 142 If a man thinks that his happiness is due to external causes and his possessions, it is reasonable to conclude that his happiness must increase with the increase of possessions and deminish in proportion to their dimunition. Therefore, if he is devoid of possessions, his happiness should be nil. What is the real experience of man? Does it conform to this view? In deep sleep, man is devoid of all possessions including his own body. Instead of being unhappy, he is quite happy. Everyone desires to be happy, and sleep soundly. The conclusion is that happiness is inherent in man and is not due to external causes. One must realise his Self in order to open the store to unalloyed happiness. -- Sri Ramana Maharshi. Both renunciation of action and the performance of action lead to Nirvana (Liberation); but of these performance of action is superior to renunciation of action. The action of today becomes the destiny of tomorrow. -- Swami Chinmayananda Chinmaya Uvacha. We must do our business faithfully, without trouble or disquiet, recalling our mind to God mildly, and with tranquility, as often as we find it wandering from Him. -- Brother Lawrence. "The Practice of the Presence of God." How is is possible for the mind to know the Lord who imparts His light to the mind, and shines within the mind, except by turning the mind inward and fixing it on the Lord? Know this! -- Sri Ramana Maharshi. Purity of mind and purity of conduct- these two depend upon the purity of a man's companions. -- Tirukural, Hindu texts. O Supreme Being! Once I thought that Thy creative activity is a tragic sport, as it inflicts various forms of suffering on embodied beings (jivas) involved in the cycle of birth and deaths (samsara), but now I do not think so. For, if there were no creation and therefore no embodied beings, who would have been there to revel in the ocean of unparalled joy derived from the experience of seeing this Form of Thine replete with consciousness and of hearing Thy glory? -- Narayaneeyam If one associates with the Sages, where is the need for all other methods of discipline? When there is a pleasant breeze blowing, of what use, tell me, is a fan? -- Sri Ramana Maharshi. Jnanam (Knowledge or Wisdom) is only awareness that there is nothing other than Brahman--The Cosmic Self; only that Brahman appears as so many [variations]. If our mind is only on such variations, the difficulties resulting from disparities will continue to haunt us. If we divert the mind towards the ONE which is the cause/source of all these variations we can derive Perennial Bliss--Jnanam. -- Sri Chandrashekara Saraswati Turn thy gaze inward, wherein resides the Paramatman [Supreme Self]. -- Swami Vivekananda, Give. The greatest joy of life is in giving, in loving and in sacrificing. To give, we must have abundance in ourselves. We cannot give what we have not. Therefore, create fullness: good health, good emotions in plenty, good knowledge. Then, give help to all; give love and sympathy to those who deserve them, give knowledge to all who need it. Give. To give is life. To take is death. -- Swami Chinmayananda. To those who have not realised the Self (God) as well as to those who have, the body is "I." To those who have not realised, the "I" is limited to the body. To those who have, the "I" shines boundless. Know that this is the difference between them. -- Sri Ramana Maharshi. Let go the things of which you are in doubt for the things in which there is no doubt. -- Mohammed, Islamic texts. Only necessity understood, and bondage to the highest is identical with true freedom. -- William James. One ever is the Self. To ask oneself, "Who and whereabouts am I?" Is like the drunken man enquiring, "Who am I?" and "Where am I?" The body is within the Self, and yet one thinks one is inside the inert body, like the ignorant spectator who supposes that the screen on which the film is thrown is within the picture. -- Sri Ramana Maharshi. The man who rejects the words of the scriptures, and follows the impulse of desire attains neither his perfection, nor joy, nor the Path Supreme. Let the scriptures be, therefore, thy authority as to what is right and what is not right. -- Bhagavad Gita The body constantly tries to draw attention to itself by its shiverings, its breathlessness, its palpitations, its shudders, sweats, and cramps. But it reacts quickly to any scorn and indifference in its master. Once it sees that he is not taken in by its jeremiads, once it understands that it will inspire no pity that way, then it comes into line and obediently accomplishes its task. -- Rene Daumal Purity is the soul's birthright. Let thoughts, words and actions be filled with this. -- Brahma Kumaris Seeing God without seeing the Self, one sees only mental image. Only he who has seen Himself has seen God, since he has lost his individuality, and now sees nothing but God. -- Sri Ramana Maharshi. Grown men may learn much from little children, for the hearts of little children are pure, and therefore, the Great Spirit may show them many things which older people miss. --Black Elk "The Sacred Pipe." When forgetting the Self, one thinks that the body is oneself, and goes through innumerable births and deaths. In the end, one remembers and becomes the Self again. Know that this is only like awakening from a dream wherein one has wandered all over the world. -- Sri Ramana Maharshi. Live within; be not shaken by outer happenings. -- Sri Aurobindo Many sensations come, many thoughts and images arise, but they are just waves of your mind. Nothing comes from outside your mind. To realise the pure mind in your delusion takes practice. If you try and expel the delusion, it will only persist even more. Just say, "Oh, this is just delusion," and do not be bothered by it. -- Shunryu Suzuki. What in me is dark, illumine, What in me is low, raise and support, That I may rise to the height of the argument, And justify the ways of God to man. -- John Milton "Paradise Lost." This universe is a tree eternally existing, its root aloft, its branches spread below. The pure root of the tree is Brahman , the immortal, in whom the three worlds have their being, whom none can transcend, who is verily the Self. -- Shukla Yajur Veda, Brihadaranyaka Upanishad Does an ornament of gold exist apart from the gold? Can the body exist apart from the Self? The ignorant one thinks, "I am the body." The enlightened one knows, "I am the Self." -- Sri Ramana Maharshi. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Apr 20, 1997 at 23:08:59 (EDT)
Poster: JW Email: To: Everyone Subject: Propogation Message: I read Deena's post about what really happens regarding bringing new people into the Maharaj Ji cult, and also the Old Premie's rendition of the Elan Vital "offical company line" about what happens. I was especially interested in how there is an attempt in the process to change history (remember George Orwell and "1984"?) by hiding events and satsangs that reflect how the entire purpose of the cult was devotion and worshiping one person, and also an attempt to keep premies from spilling the beans on these issues as well by discouraging them from talking to new people about that the experience of knowledge and Guru Maharaj Ji means to them. It occurred to me that what should be done is to compile and distribute a library of magazines, videos and movies that clearly show those events, especially events during the dark/devotional/catholic phase of Guru Maharaj Ji (circa 1977-1983) and before. [Jim, I think the devotional/catholic period actually went later than 1981. It was waning but still going on when I left in 1983, but that might be because I was on the West Coast under the Nazi dictatorship of David Smith.] Those items could then be distributed to those considering entering the cult for a more truthful background on what they are about to get into. I would think those items would undermine the current packaging of Guru Maharaj Ji, which, from what Old Premie tells us, is kind of like a cross between Werner Ehrhard and the Mahesh Yogi. Suggested vidoes could include: Satguru Has Come (with the cool English premie sister narrator with the British "a": "And all the Mahaaaatmas prostrated before him and declared him the Satguru.") The Lord of the Universe Who is Guru Maharaj Ji (with the neato cool light show, and also the Who is Guru Maharaj Ji Book, which was used for propogation then, including the chapter about how the other members of the Lord's family are the incarnations of various divine beings and virtues. Bal Bagwanji was the "incarnation of divine intelligence.") The Power of Love (that Australian film with about 30 minutes of a darshan line in it) All the Elan Vital and And It Is Divine Magazines, especially ones with endless pictures of Guru Maharaj Ji wearing crowns and Krishna outfits, dancing bare-chested on huge stages, especially the stage built for Kissimee that had a built-in curtainwall of air conditioning for the Lord, while the premies baked in the hot sun.) That video of Guru Maharaj Ji driving the Austin Martin the premies bought for his birthday in 1976. Videos of Guru Maharaj Ji's satsangs from Kissimee in 1980, in which he said the premies do not even deserve to look at Guru Maharaj Ji and other videos where "surrender" and not "knowledge" is the major topic of the satsang. I think all of those interesting items would be very informative to people trying to find out what Guru Maharaj Ji is about and an essential part of any aspirant program. What do you think? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Apr 20, 1997 at 23:21:54 (EDT)
Poster: Jim Email: heller@islandnet.com To: JW Subject: Re: Propogation Message: Absolutely. JW, would you please email me at your convenience? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Apr 20, 1997 at 23:57:11 (EDT)
Poster: Bill cooper Email: To: JW Subject: Re: Propogation Message: I read Deena's post about what really happens regarding bringing new people into the Maharaj Ji cult, and also the Old Premie's rendition of the Elan Vital 'offical company line' about what happens. I was especially interested in how there is an attempt in the process to change history (remember George Orwell and '1984'?) by hiding events and satsangs that reflect how the entire purpose of the cult was devotion and worshiping one person, and also an attempt to keep premies from spilling the beans on these issues as well by discouraging them from talking to new people about that the experience of knowledge and Guru Maharaj Ji means to them. It occurred to me that what should be done is to compile and distribute a library of magazines, videos and movies that clearly show those events, especially events during the dark/devotional/catholic phase of Guru Maharaj Ji (circa 1977-1983) and before. [Jim, I think the devotional/catholic period actually went later than 1981. It was waning but still going on when I left in 1983, but that might be because I was on the West Coast under the Nazi dictatorship of David Smith.] Those items could then be distributed to those considering entering the cult for a more truthful background on what they are about to get into. I would think those items would undermine the current packaging of Guru Maharaj Ji, which, from what Old Premie tells us, is kind of like a cross between Werner Ehrhard and the Mahesh Yogi. Suggested vidoes could include: Satguru Has Come (with the cool English premie sister narrator with the British 'a': 'And all the Mahaaaatmas prostrated before him and declared him the Satguru.') The Lord of the Universe Who is Guru Maharaj Ji (with the neato cool light show, and also the Who is Guru Maharaj Ji Book, which was used for propogation then, including the chapter about how the other members of the Lord's family are the incarnations of various divine beings and virtues. Bal Bagwanji was the 'incarnation of divine intelligence.') The Power of Love (that Australian film with about 30 minutes of a darshan line in it) All the Elan Vital and And It Is Divine Magazines, especially ones with endless pictures of Guru Maharaj Ji wearing crowns and Krishna outfits, dancing bare-chested on huge stages, especially the stage built for Kissimee that had a built-in curtainwall of air conditioning for the Lord, while the premies baked in the hot sun.) That video of Guru Maharaj Ji driving the Austin Martin the premies bought for his birthday in 1976. Videos of Guru Maharaj Ji's satsangs from Kissimee in 1980, in which he said the premies do not even deserve to look at Guru Maharaj Ji and other videos where 'surrender' and not 'knowledge' is the major topic of the satsang. I think all of those interesting items would be very informative to people trying to find out what Guru Maharaj Ji is about and an essential part of any aspirant program. What do you think? Hey Jw if anyone can get that stuff together as a package I'd buy a few sets it sounds great. It would be really good to see those old videos again the last time I saw them I was in my teens. I,d bet it would clear a lot of crap out of my head by seeing what it was really like Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Apr 21, 1997 at 00:01:42 (EDT)
Poster: Bill Cooper Email: To: JW Subject: Re: Propogation Message: Sorry it just reminded me of this video a friend of mine had who was an ex Jehovahs witness. When they came knocking at the door he would show them it and they would leave looking severly unsettled because deep down inside they knew they had seen the historical truth of their organisation and not the reinvented one they are taught Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Apr 21, 1997 at 09:23:06 (EDT)
Poster: Deena Email: To: JW Subject: Re: Propogation Message: Oh JW, you naughty, naughty boy...don't you know you're going to hell for this? Oh I forgot, we've already been there, thanks to Him. I'm glad you share my feelings about letting aspirants know what this is really about. MJ did his damage control at the big summer anniversary event in Miami last July. He had tons of vids made with stuff from the past...but of course he ommitted anything distasteful now to his fledglings ie: Krishna costumes etc. It was all so slick the way it was presented, I wish all you guys could have been there. You would have especially enjoyed the Divine Times huge newspaper type publication that was sold there. I tried to read it all but it even made me feel a little nauseous (must have been my mind eh? or was it my commen sense returning, slowly but surely? I just thought I wasn't devoted enough to relate.). Jim, you could borrow from any old premies that went there because lots have it, it was sold out. Jim knows how to get a hold of me. He has my permission to give you my phone number if you would like it. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Apr 21, 1997 at 11:47:51 (EDT)
Poster: JW Email: To: Deena Subject: Re: Propogation Message: It would be funny to see it (the new, sanitized Divine Times); but I will be sure to read it at some time well after I have eaten to avoid uncontrolled gagging and barfing. You know how unpleasant that can be. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Apr 20, 1997 at 21:52:52 (EDT)
Poster: Deena Email: To: Everyone Subject: SKIP POSTS BY MILI Message: Skip posts by Mili Baba because you came here to read personal experiences and the occassional quotes from books to back up what they are trying to relate. You didn't log on to read page after page written by a person who is neither a premie nor an ex-premie. MILI......THIS FORUM IS 'ANYTHING & EVERYTHING ABOUT MAHARAJI OR HIS FOLLOWERS'....REMEMBER? If you're here to share your experiences, fine. Otherwise, Jim's right. Go back to your Satsang page. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Apr 20, 1997 at 22:12:57 (EDT)
Poster: JW Email: To: Deena Subject: Re: SKIP POSTS BY MILI Message: Yes, I think Mili has delusions of being a guru himself. Maybe start your own cult, Mili? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Apr 21, 1997 at 09:40:37 (EDT)
Poster: Mili Baba Email: To: Deena Subject: Re: SKIP POSTS BY MILI Message: Skip posts by Mili Baba because you came here to read personal experiences and the occassional quotes from books to back up what they are trying to relate. You didn't log on to read page after page written by a person who is neither a premie nor an ex-premie. MILI......THIS FORUM IS 'ANYTHING & EVERYTHING ABOUT MAHARAJI OR HIS FOLLOWERS'....REMEMBER? If you're here to share your experiences, fine. Otherwise, Jim's right. Go back to your Satsang page. Well, Alan Watts gave a thousand bucks donation for the first programs that Maharaji had in the States back in 1972, and besides he influenced me into receiving Knowledge. Neither a premie, nor an ex-premie ??? You do have a problem with black-and white thinking, Deena. I am so glad that you are not part of Maharaji's organisation anymore. He doesn't need people like you to slap labels around confuse other people. So you guys don't like po-guru stuff? What are you going to do - burn Schopenhauer and the Upanishads next? Run the Sikhs out of Amerika? Xenophobia, bigotism, lack of culture - do you understand what those words mean? Look it up in Webster's, Jim. - Mili Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Apr 21, 1997 at 11:44:01 (EDT)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Mili Baba Subject: Re: SKIP POSTS BY MILI Message: You're such a lout. Look, we can't say DICK on your friend Harlan's page and you've got YOUR OWN page for all this 'spiritual' stuff. Can you appreciate what I'm saying? If not, Mili, I think Scott can easily be persuaded that even free speech has its limits. Capiche? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Apr 21, 1997 at 12:48:45 (EDT)
Poster: Bobby Email: To: Jim Subject: Re: SKIP POSTS BY MILI Message: I think Scott can easily be persuaded that even free speech has its limits Yeah, free speech according to Jim Heller. Let him blast, rave, insult, demean, slander, abuse etc. You are way out of bounds Heller. How dare you try to control others who have alternate perspectives. Sure, I think Mili's long quotes are inappropriate. But at least he's doesn't lace into folks hurtfully like you do. You speak like those who lynch and incite mob violence. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Apr 21, 1997 at 17:37:19 (EDT)
Poster: Mili Email: To: Bobby Subject: Re: SKIP POSTS BY MILI Message: I think Scott can easily be persuaded that even free speech has its limits. Yeah, free speech according to Jim Heller. Let him blast, rave, insult, demean, slander, abuse etc. You are way out of bounds Heller. How dare you try to control others who have alternate perspectives. Sure, I think Mili's long quotes are inappropriate. But at least he's doesn't lace into folks hurtfully like you do. You speak like those who lynch and incite mob violence. How nice it would be to see Jim bite into a REAL cult like the Ku-Klux-Klan, for a change. But of course, he hasn't got the balls for something like that. He knows those guys might lynch him back. It's easier to pick on the weary and weak. He's a sadist, all right. Mr Sicko - tough on the Internet. Wouldn't be so tough with me if we were face to face. - Mili Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Apr 21, 1997 at 20:03:55 (EDT)
Poster: Deena Email: To: Mili and Bobby Subject: Re: SKIP POSTS BY MILI Message: Hey guys, get a grip here. Bobby doesn't find the posts appropriate...that's all I was getting at So what if Alan donated money - lots of people did, does that mean I should read every word they said too? 'THIS IS IT' BY ALLAN WATTS, INFLUENCED ME TOO...UNFORTUNATELY I DIDN'T KNOW HOW TO SEPARATE THE MESSAGE FROM THE MESSANGER AT THE TIME....ALAN MAY HAVE BEEN ONE OF MY GREATEST INSPIRATIONS WHEN I WAS A KID BUT HIS STUFF DOES NOT BELONG HERE...OH, MAYBE A FEW LINES OK...BUT GIVE ME A BREAK, PAGE AFTER PAGE AND YOU EXPECT FOR US NOT TO BE PUT OFF? PREMIE OR EX-PREMIE ALLAN WATTS IS NOT. BESIDES, MAYBE IF I'D KNOWN HE WAS A DRUNK I WOULDN'T HAVE THOUGHT SO MUCH ABOUT HIM...OH YEAH, AL,L I NEEDED TO DO WAS SEPARATE THE MESSAGE FROM THE MESSANGER. GEE IF PEOPLE COMING TO MJ FOR THE FIRST TIME DID THAT THERE WOULDN'T BE ANY POINT IN PURSUING IT FURTHER....DAH! AND TO CLARIFY FURTHER THE ATTITUDE THAT YOU GUYS AND WE HAVE IS ALL THE SAME...ANGER BEING VENTED...I CAN'T BELIEVE THE WAY YOU DENY YOUR OWN 'IF ANYONE TRASHES MAHARAJI I WOULD LIKE TO KILL THEM' POSTS (EVEN IF YOU DON'T COME OUT AND ADMIT THAT) AND AS FAR AS MY NOT BEING PART OF THE ORGANIZATION, LET IT BE KNOWN I WAS AN ESSENTIAL AND WELL APPROVED PART OF IT UNTIL TWO MONTHS AGO. I don't know why I bother except that you, Mili, are such an asset (notice I did not call you an ass ) to my personal understanding that MJ is a cult leader...your posts continue to show that to me and to everyone else who logs on. THANKS MILI , THANKS FOR BEING YOURSELF. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Apr 21, 1997 at 20:25:13 (EDT)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Bobby Subject: Re: SKIP POSTS BY MILI Message: >>I think Scott can easily be persuaded that even free speech has its limits Yeah, free speech according to Jim Heller. Let him blast, rave, insult, demean, slander, abuse etc. You are way out of bounds Heller. How dare you try to control others who have alternate perspectives. Sure, I think Mili's long quotes are inappropriate. But at least he's doesn't lace into folks hurtfully like you do. You speak like those who lynch and incite mob violence. Do you have an agenda, Bobby? I do. Mine is to keep a runway clear for lost premies flying circles in the night. Also, to dissuade newcomers from Mr. Rawat's snake-oil pitch. And, of course, to have a little fun in the process. Persuing my agenda means doing all the 'mean' things you accuse me of. Well, almost all. Whatever it takes to clear a path. Do folks get hurt? What's hurt? Their faith in Maharaji? Their faith in their own half-baked spiritual crap? Big fucking deal. The more the better. Why do you think Mili's posts are 'inappropriate' (God, I hate strong language!)? And if you do, what are YOU going to do about it? If you've got a soft, tender way to make him stop, all power to you. I've talked with this guy for a lot longer than you have. I've had him threaten me with 'stakes through [my] heart' and 'Maharaji's shotgun'. I've seen him threaten to beat the shit out of David Stirling. I've tried to reason with him AGAIN and AGAIN. No, bud, you're the one that's out of line. You got a solution to Mili? I'd like to hear it. And NOT some garbled newage shit that doesn't really address the problem. Thanks, Oh yeah - Jai Sat Chit Anand! Jim Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Apr 21, 1997 at 20:30:48 (EDT)
Poster: Bobby Email: To: Jim Subject: Re: SKIP POSTS BY MILI Message: Same old shit from you Heller. I expected as much. You're not worth a relpy. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Apr 21, 1997 at 20:33:41 (EDT)
Poster: Matt C. Email: To: Everyone Subject: Re: SKIP POSTS BY MILI Message: Ok everyone. Let's get on the word......If you are not interested in reading Milli's stuff then click on to another topic. I know that can be irksome when things run slow but...... I do think that the attractiveness of this bulletin board is its personal accounts of Premie life. If bandwidth or clutter becomes a problem then the operator should clear it out. Perhaps, filing it in a more appropriate place. Milli....You might rethink your contribution. Is it helping anyone at this site? Perhaps if the posts were a little less luxuriant and voluminous I would be able to read them. As it is with these rash of posts I just feel leafletted. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Apr 21, 1997 at 20:36:10 (EDT)
Poster: Bobby Email: To: Matt C. Subject: Re: SKIP POSTS BY MILI Message: Well said Matt. I agree. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Apr 21, 1997 at 21:03:44 (EDT)
Poster: Anne Email: To: Bobby Subject: Re: SKIP POSTS BY MILI Message: From my standpoint I am glad someone like Jim isn't being all 'nicey-nicey' polite. Some extremely insicive points have been made by him in his crusade for justice. I rather welcome his uncompromising, and angry attitude. I know how he feels! I also feel that it would be extremely sad if this forum degenerated into a cockfight between personalities rather than being an oasis of support for recovering ex-premies. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Apr 21, 1997 at 21:35:56 (EDT)
Poster: Bobby Email: To: Anne Subject: Re: SKIP POSTS BY MILI Message: I don't argue for nicey-nicey. I argue for personal respect. After Maharaji, I'm still a spiritually oriented person. In my opinion there are certain places of experience that don't translate into logic and reason. Jim launches into bitter attacks on any who espouse any perspective that can't be boxed into his atheistic world view. I don't care that he's an atheist. I just resent his attacks. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Apr 21, 1997 at 22:19:08 (EDT)
Poster: Chris Email: To: Bobby Subject: Re: SKIP POSTS BY MILI Message: Quite a variety of viewpoints and personalities on this page. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Apr 21, 1997 at 22:21:52 (EDT)
Poster: Matt C. Email: To: Chris Subject: Re: SKIP POSTS BY MILI Message: Yup. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Apr 21, 1997 at 23:56:25 (EDT)
Poster: Deena Email: To: Anne and everyone else too Subject: Re: SKIP POSTS BY MILI Message: I like the way you nailed it on the head Anne. Also, as I've said before (and as Jim himself just did) he is clearing a way for me and other people like me. I for one am very indebted to Jim for the true compassion he's shown me in a time where if he hadn't been there maybe I wouldn't be here now ( and I don't mean on this forum either ) For all the years I was' Blessed' with MJ's love I never was cared about the way people on this forum have cared. As far as his raw humor goes, it has provided welcome laughs and relief from the shock and anxiety of coming out of this cult. I really feel that if premies find this site offensive because it trashes MJ they should do like my husband and continue to enjoy their experience and LEAVE THE EX-PREMIES AND PREMIES WHO LIKE BEING HERE ...A L O N E !!!!!!!!!!!!!! Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Apr 22, 1997 at 00:27:36 (EDT)
Poster: old premie Email: To: Deena Subject: Re: SKIP POSTS BY MILI Message: Do you think you could call a truce? You get left alone to work out whatever you want, but you let people who are just starting to come to events make up their own minds, instead of implanting all of your own negativity? I knew someone in South America who decided this was all a fraud. He went to the media, denounced Maharaji, got a lot of attention. The ashram in that city was closed, and then reopened. Several months later, someone ran into him on the street. He had started to practice Knowledge again and was extremely contrite. He was rather devastated because he knew his name was shit in the premie community, so he could never come to programs. He took out a subscription to AIID and called some premies he knew for as much support as he could get from them. I'm not saying this is going to happen to you. I'm only saying don't close yourself to who you really are - you never know. My own resentment runs very high toward the cult-o-phobics. They all have their own agenda, humanitarian as they might think they are - they refuse to consider the possibility that anything exists beyond their own shrunken minds, something that they can't cut to pieces and box and present in perfect little segments to the population. So they feed on the confusion of people like yourself, and don't allow you to reach your own conclusions - it's all got to be written out, it's all got to be well organized. Checklists, prepackaged seminars. But if you go for that, who am I to stop you? I just have this image of human beings trying so hard to chart their experience, trying to define and confine it, when the universe is so immense, inside and outside - infinity in a grain of sand and eternity in a flower? that's the least of it. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Apr 22, 1997 at 01:00:06 (EDT)
Poster: Deena Email: To: old premie Subject: Re: SKIP POSTS BY MILI Message: How many times OP do I have to remind you that I came to this on my own. Not one book and I didn't know this forum even existed. I did not believe for 23 years this was a cult. I hated any refering to it as such. I would have sounded exactly like you in defense. You just don't acknowledge the possibility that Maharaji is a cult leader and people have, are and will be taken in. You can't, simply because if it was a cult you wouldn't be in it. But how do you explain all the people who have discovered it is. MIND. That's what would appear to be the case with the premie you mentioned. One big mind attack that he later regretted. My husband is a devotee and he more than anyone knows this was on my own. And he has said he does not see me going back. He knows because he lives with me and saw the whole thing unfold. I just feel people should be informed. I can't tell them he is a fraud. I can tell them that if they want to worship a master they have come to the right place. Blessings will be given only when they become premies and they will urge him to dance and they will long for darshan. That's what this is about. Informing people of the tradition of Kabir,Tulsidas, Rumi, Mira, etc.etc. Not how it is presented in the first public event. In India and other parts of the world it may not seem unusual. Fine. But here, it is called cult llike and there is no two ways about it. I'm happy that you (like my sweet husband ) are content to ignore the suffering and even loss of life that has occurred. It must be very comforting to know you are right and all these cult--o-phobics like myself are wrong. Obviously the difference between you and my husband is that his FAITH (and that is what this is REALLY about) is deeper and his trust in MJ complete because he is no longer threatened by my presence here. Why are you? If MJ is who you say he is than you have nothing to be concerned about and should not waste anymore of your time being resentful since MJ himself would view that as stupid. I use that word because stupid is what he called the girl who left knowledge and came back in tears. Call me stupid then. Your threats of not being part of MJ's world at one time would have worked because I would have sincerely taken a bullet for him if someone threatened his life. Now I just would like people to make an informed decision.' SEPARATE THE MESSAGE FROM THE MESSANGER' sounds like good advice to me. But that is just my opinion. Don't fret. We'll all be here long after you go to the next event and remember that life is to precious to waste doing something that doesn't remind you of what is real.... THAT ISN'T ENJOYING YOURSELF. IS THIS PEACE OFFERING OR TRUCE GOOD ENOUGH FOR YOU? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Apr 22, 1997 at 09:05:20 (EDT)
Poster: Jim Email: To: old premie Subject: Re: SKIP POSTS BY MILI Message: OP, A new person walks up to the Maharji booth in the Hall of Life. They get the literature which, as you might expect, avoids all the pratfalls you so gingerly sidestep. In other words -- but even that's just an expression, so please don't quote me -- the pamphlets avoid all clear expression. Fortunately, the universe is presented to new-person without being all 'cut to pieces and presented in perfect little segments.' No, proudly avoiding all such excessive mentation as the premies kept frothing with in years past, the perfect master now says it all. He alone writes the copy, he alone speaks and he, NOT burdened with a shrunken mind, artfully says nothing. The new person is incredibly impressed, such is the nature of the human heart, and signs up for the next video. He's to be back at the booth in twenty minutes. The new person would gladly stick around and talk to the premie attendant who gave him the pamphlet but the premie seems most comfortable just standing there beaming softly. It's almost as if they've been told to NOT discuss Maharji or this Knowledge thing ('Well, is it meditation?' 'Maharaji talks about the problem with wordsjust like that in the video. You really should come back and see the video. It's only another few minutes.'). So the new person wanders around a bit in this here Hall of Life. Accross the aisle, lo and behold, is something called the 'Ex-Premie' booth. The new person, still holding their pamphlet and their free ticket to the free, introductory video, wanders over. 'What's this about?' they wonder. When they get there, a few ex-premies offer to share their experiences. They too have a video. What, OP, do you think they should be allowed to show in their video? What do you think they should be allowed to tell the new person? What literature of their own do you think it would be fair for them to offer? How about the book 'Who is Guru Maharj Ji?' Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Apr 22, 1997 at 11:07:04 (EDT)
Poster: JW Email: To: old premie Subject: Re: SKIP POSTS BY MILI Message: Prepackaged seminars? I guess you are referring to the current Maharaj Ji cult aspirant program, No? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Apr 22, 1997 at 12:54:35 (EDT)
Poster: op Email: To: JW Subject: Re: SKIP POSTS BY MILI Message: ha ha. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Apr 22, 1997 at 14:47:49 (EDT)
Poster: Chris Email: To: Deena Subject: Re: SKIP POSTS BY MILI Message: *Deena said: ' Obviously the difference between you and my husband is that his FAITH (and that is what this is REALLY about) is deeper and his trust in MJ complete because he is no longer threatened by my presence here. Why are you?' NOBODY IS THREATENED BY YOUR PRESENCE DEENA. There are certainly people posting rebuttals to your viewpoint. And also people providing alternative information to your FUD stuff. *Deena said: 'I'm happy that you (like my sweet husband ) are content to ignore the suffering and even loss of life that has occurred.' NICE FALSE ACCUSATION DEENA! Nobody is ignoring the fact that people have had problems, suffering and even loss of life. How inconsiderate of you. How ignorant have you become? Are you a zombie now? You are so proud that now you have such a tidy explanation for everything. It is so easy to blame M for all the ills. Isn't it? Very tidy and clean cut. A perfectly explained world. What about the benefits? Did the DEVIL have your mind under control for the last 24 years. By all means enjoy your new identity. But don't expect your false claims and accusations to go unchallenged. CD Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Apr 22, 1997 at 14:59:15 (EDT)
Poster: Chris Email: To: Jim Subject: Re: SKIP POSTS BY MILI Message: Jim says: 'What, OP, do you think they should be allowed to show in their video?' Chris says: Show whatever you want Jim. Whatever you consider to be of value. Out of the years that you did hang around did you ever have any good experiences? I have heard the bad ones so far. Some sound pretty bad. Especially your friend killing himself. CD Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Apr 22, 1997 at 18:54:38 (EDT)
Poster: Chris Email: To: Chris Subject: Re: SKIP POSTS BY MILI Message: Let's assume for argument's sake that Deena's own presumption -- that certain premies including... who was it? OP?, feel threatened by her, or our, presence, do you really claim to have posted 'rebuttals'? Chris, with all due respect, I seem to recall your consistent avoidance of controversy. Is this a false accustation? do you know what I'm talking about? Come on, Chris. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Apr 22, 1997 at 19:06:10 (EDT)
Poster: Chris in another dimension Email: To: Chris Subject: Re: SKIP POSTS BY MILI Message: Alter-Chris wrote: Let's assume for argument's sake that Deena's own presumption -- that certain premies including... who was it? OP?, feel threatened by her, or our, presence, do you really claim to have posted 'rebuttals'? Chris, with all due respect, I seem to recall your consistent avoidance of controversy. Is this a false accustation? do you know what I'm talking about? Come on, Chris. Chris, is this you talking to yourself? You sound like Jim.
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Date: Tues, Apr 22, 1997 at 19:10:50 (EDT)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Chris Subject: Re: SKIP POSTS BY MILI Message: Jim says: 'What, OP, do you think they should be allowed to show in their video?' Chris says: Show whatever you want Jim. Whatever you consider to be of value. Out of the years that you did hang around did you ever have any good experiences? I have heard the bad ones so far. Some sound pretty bad. Especially your friend killing himself. CD Oh Chris, Dave's suicide wasn't so bad! It didn't even interrupt satsang that night, let alone arti. We all waved Maharaji's candle to our foreheads and drank the holy water. I meditated, profoundly relieved that Dave, not I, had fallen into the well of doubt. So, please don't get me wrong. Dave's death wasn't a big deal and certainly nothing to bother Maharaji with. What lese did I like? I liked the cake and ice cream. Yummy! Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Apr 22, 1997 at 19:36:34 (EDT)
Poster: x Email: To: Chris Subject: Re: SKIP POSTS BY MILI Message: Who is the Chris imposter? Another Chris? What became of Chris? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Apr 22, 1997 at 19:51:36 (EDT)
Poster: x Email: To: Chris in another dimension Subject: Re: SKIP POSTS BY MILI Message: The message was definitely not THE Chris's style. Possibly a Chris puppet under control of the Hellmeister or one of the seekers from a dimension in the present... Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Apr 22, 1997 at 20:03:54 (EDT)
Poster: Jim Email: To: x Subject: Re: SKIP POSTS BY MILI Message: Who are YOU? Anyway, you've got the wrong guy. If you think I'd even
imagine creating more 'chrisness' you've got to be kidding.
Besides, I'M not the one afraid to post my real name here.
Don't accuse me of posting false ones.
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Date: Sun, Apr 20, 1997 at 21:41:28 (EDT)
Poster: Anon Email: To: Everyone Subject: My prayer Message: I wrote this about 7 years ago when I was still coming to terms with the disillusionment I felt after 16 years of following Maharaji and practising knowledge. I surrendered to Maharaji, as he said to, in the ashram and felt bitter (at age 34) that my sincerity , dedication and heartfelt youthful energies seemed to have been wasted. This is reproduced exactly as I jotted it down in a notebook. I absolutely never intended to show this to anyone, it sounds rather naive to me now, but this was a real spontaneous outpouring of my feelings as I approached my mid-life. I think it reveals how I truly felt let down by my Lord and Master, Maharaji and how I desperately wanted to refind my lost childhood innocence and unembittered longing . It also shows that I longed for a truer revelation of God in my life. MY PRAYER All my life I primed myself for something great. To be a part of something great is the cherished goal of the soul of youth in Man. I determined at an early age to give myself to a positive cause, thinking a mundane existence to be avoided at all costs. I jealously idolised those who achieved apparent success and awaited my turn to contribute, to be used, to be a part of a Great Cause. An elusive Great Cause it is proving to be. If life is a giving back of love to my Creator, then let it be so in thought ,word and deed. Let the goal be clear, the faith be strong and the heart determined. Don t allow thoughts of decay and age to depress the soul, to sublimate one s body into a meaningless existence. Let passion rule where intellectual knowledge becomes impotent. Give the fire in the heart oxygen to burn and explode. Let me be in moments of Truth like the child I was/still am. Free me from the bonds of egoism and let my life be full of delight and wonder so that each day is filled sufficiently for a lifetime. Reveal thyself O mystery Don t delay or let me be tricked into false sacrifice. The dangers of waste and bitterness are too great - Time is too precious and the need too strong. Open my eyes to the meaning of life that is there; Tear down the hated symbols and rituals that rape my pure innocent heart and murder the true love within. Arise inner God Child perfect and free, Awaken lover within to my trueself. Find strength and pure intent and behold. Let me be found as I am lost. Let my purpose be clear as I am unsure. Focus my emotion into everyday life, make it a practical force. Let me be a noble soldier fighting for a just cause. Let me feel the energy of youth flush through my body and mind. Let me train to achieve. Let me enter middle age with pride and integrity, not inner shame that I wasted my my time in delusion or gave myself in vain. Let me argue.... Let me use my intellect... Let me know why I must act... Let me be unafraid.. Banish fear altogether.. Let me laugh and cry... Let my heart be full as it is now hungry. Let my gratitude return for life as I have grown bitter... Let my soul live as my body lives. Let life be full of deep joy. Let me find the way to real faith and Knowledge. Let me live a full life. Let me turn over a million new leaves and let me blossom before I die. Let this be it ; the life that fulfils itself utterly, that turns it s back once and for all on illness death and sorrow.. these hands respond to the power of love with absolute certainty, this mind serve the spirit with efficiency and excellence until the end... these eyes see with clarity the way ahead and perceive all the joy and wonder of the universe... these ears hear the undistorted voice of the Creator in the Creation. Let inspiration in at every turn, let time stand still and the heart awaken. Let a deep conviction grow where true logic has destroyed shallow meanings,. Let Knowledge replace hope and reality dawn and never set in this being - And fast! Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Apr 20, 1997 at 22:05:24 (EDT)
Poster: Anon Email: To: everyone Subject: Re: My prayer Message: I just want to say that I have just submitted my further thoughts, at length, in several posts in the other section of this website. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Apr 20, 1997 at 23:11:05 (EDT)
Poster: JW Email: To: Anon Subject: Re: My prayer Message: Thank you, Anon. I can relate very much to your words. I can also feel the heartfelt pain. How long ago did you get out? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |