Ex-Premie.Org

Forum I Archive # 4

From: May 14, 1997

To: May 21, 1997

Page: 2 Of: 5


Deena -:- I watched a video last night -:- Mon, May 19, 1997 at 11:32:00 (EDT)
___Mili -:- Re: I watched a video last night -:- Mon, May 19, 1997 at 13:00:26 (EDT)
___Mili -:- Re: I watched a video last night -:- Mon, May 19, 1997 at 13:29:06 (EDT)
___Jim -:- Re: I watched a video last night -:- Mon, May 19, 1997 at 15:16:22 (EDT)
___Jim -:- Re: I watched a video last night -:- Mon, May 19, 1997 at 15:18:48 (EDT)
___op -:- Re: I watched a video last night -:- Tues, May 20, 1997 at 06:58:01 (EDT)
___op -:- Re: I watched a video last night -:- Tues, May 20, 1997 at 11:04:09 (EDT)
___Deena -:- Re: I watched a video last night -:- Tues, May 20, 1997 at 12:00:34 (EDT)
___Jim -:- Re: I watched a video last night -:- Tues, May 20, 1997 at 12:02:54 (EDT)
___Mili -:- Re: I watched a video last night -:- Tues, May 20, 1997 at 13:13:33 (EDT)

Mili -:- A Question for Deena -:- Mon, May 19, 1997 at 06:39:32 (EDT)
___Deena -:- Re: A Question for Deena -:- Mon, May 19, 1997 at 11:34:48 (EDT)

Mili -:- A Poem by Bullashah -:- Mon, May 19, 1997 at 04:02:24 (EDT)
___Mili -:- Re: A Poem by Bullashah -:- Mon, May 19, 1997 at 06:40:53 (EDT)
___op -:- Re: A Poem by Bullashah -:- Mon, May 19, 1997 at 09:30:25 (EDT)
___op -:- Re: A Poem by Bullashah -:- Tues, May 20, 1997 at 06:37:51 (EDT)
___Mili -:- Re: A Poem by Bullashah -:- Tues, May 20, 1997 at 07:39:38 (EDT)

JW -:- Guru Maharaj Ji's Commandments -:- Mon, May 19, 1997 at 01:18:12 (EDT)
___op -:- Re: Guru Maharaj Ji's Commandments -:- Mon, May 19, 1997 at 03:08:10 (EDT)
___JW -:- Re: Guru Maharaj Ji's Commandments -:- Mon, May 19, 1997 at 12:38:37 (EDT)
___Chris -:- Re: Guru Maharaj Ji's Commandments -:- Mon, May 19, 1997 at 15:26:16 (EDT)
___Jim -:- Re: Guru Maharaj Ji's Commandments -:- Mon, May 19, 1997 at 15:28:53 (EDT)
___Jim -:- Re: Guru Maharaj Ji's Commandments -:- Mon, May 19, 1997 at 15:33:55 (EDT)
___Chris -:- Re: Guru Maharaj Ji's Commandments -:- Mon, May 19, 1997 at 15:47:10 (EDT)
___Chris -:- Re: Guru Maharaj Ji's Commandments -:- Mon, May 19, 1997 at 15:58:21 (EDT)
___JW -:- Re: Guru Maharaj Ji's Commandments -:- Mon, May 19, 1997 at 17:16:39 (EDT)
___Jim -:- Re: Guru Maharaj Ji's Commandments -:- Mon, May 19, 1997 at 17:29:37 (EDT)
___JW -:- Re: Guru Maharaj Ji's Commandments -:- Mon, May 19, 1997 at 17:58:27 (EDT)
___Jim -:- Re: Guru Maharaj Ji's Commandments -:- Mon, May 19, 1997 at 19:25:29 (EDT)
___JW -:- Re: Guru Maharaj Ji's Commandments -:- Mon, May 19, 1997 at 20:07:56 (EDT)
___Jim -:- Re: Guru Maharaj Ji's Commandments -:- Mon, May 19, 1997 at 20:21:09 (EDT)
___JW -:- Re: Guru Maharaj Ji's Commandments -:- Mon, May 19, 1997 at 20:32:58 (EDT)
___op -:- Re: Guru Maharaj Ji's Commandments -:- Mon, May 19, 1997 at 20:57:49 (EDT)
___op -:- Re: Guru Maharaj Ji's Commandments -:- Mon, May 19, 1997 at 21:03:25 (EDT)
___guess who? -:- Re: Guru Maharaj Ji's Commandments -:- Mon, May 19, 1997 at 21:05:49 (EDT)
___Jim -:- Re: Guru Maharaj Ji's Commandments -:- Mon, May 19, 1997 at 21:09:19 (EDT)
___op -:- Re: Guru Maharaj Ji's Commandments -:- Mon, May 19, 1997 at 21:11:53 (EDT)
___op -:- Re: Guru Maharaj Ji's Commandments -:- Mon, May 19, 1997 at 21:17:19 (EDT)
___Jim -:- Re: Guru Maharaj Ji's Commandments -:- Mon, May 19, 1997 at 22:44:25 (EDT)
___JW -:- Re: Guru Maharaj Ji's Commandments -:- Mon, May 19, 1997 at 23:36:10 (EDT)
___JW -:- Re: Guru Maharaj Ji's Commandments -:- Mon, May 19, 1997 at 23:41:02 (EDT)
___Mili -:- Re: Guru Maharaj Ji's Commandments -:- Tues, May 20, 1997 at 03:16:47 (EDT)
___Jim -:- Re: Guru Maharaj Ji's Commandments -:- Tues, May 20, 1997 at 11:39:53 (EDT)

Mili -:- To Brian -:- Sun, May 18, 1997 at 21:29:45 (EDT)

Deena -:- To Douche and Brian -:- Sun, May 18, 1997 at 20:31:18 (EDT)
___Douche -:- Re: To Douche and Brian -:- Mon, May 19, 1997 at 03:46:23 (EDT)
___Brian -:- Re: To Douche and Brian -:- Mon, May 19, 1997 at 05:59:01 (EDT)

Kurt Andersen -:- Article on Maharaji -:- Sun, May 18, 1997 at 12:31:12 (EDT)
___Jim -:- Re: Article on Maharaji -:- Sun, May 18, 1997 at 16:14:39 (EDT)
___Kurt Andersen -:- Re: Article on Maharaji -:- Mon, May 19, 1997 at 13:44:12 (EDT)
___Jim -:- Re: Article on Maharaji -:- Mon, May 19, 1997 at 15:38:41 (EDT)
___Chris -:- Re: Article on Maharaji -:- Mon, May 19, 1997 at 19:05:02 (EDT)
___Jim -:- Re: Article on Maharaji -:- Mon, May 19, 1997 at 19:36:59 (EDT)
___JW -:- Re: Article on Maharaji -:- Mon, May 19, 1997 at 20:25:36 (EDT)
___Chris -:- Re: Article on Maharaji -:- Mon, May 19, 1997 at 22:24:29 (EDT)
___Jim -:- Re: Article on Maharaji -:- Mon, May 19, 1997 at 22:35:10 (EDT)
___JW -:- Re: Article on Maharaji -:- Tues, May 20, 1997 at 00:10:04 (EDT)
___Chris -:- Re: Article on Maharaji -:- Tues, May 20, 1997 at 02:10:47 (EDT)

Deena -:- 23 years ago I became an aspirant -:- Sun, May 18, 1997 at 04:00:34 (EDT)
___Mili -:- Re: 23 years ago I became an aspirant -:- Sun, May 18, 1997 at 04:25:30 (EDT)
___jim -:- Re: 23 years ago I became an aspirant -:- Mon, May 19, 1997 at 16:53:57 (EDT)

JW -:- Guru Maharaj Ji's Dress Clothes -:- Sun, May 18, 1997 at 03:19:34 (EDT)
___op -:- Re: Guru Maharaj Ji's Dress Clothes -:- Tues, May 20, 1997 at 05:52:07 (EDT)
___JW -:- Re: Guru Maharaj Ji's Dress Clothes -:- Tues, May 20, 1997 at 14:02:36 (EDT)
___op -:- Re: Guru Maharaj Ji's Dress Clothes -:- Tues, May 20, 1997 at 15:02:30 (EDT)

Deena's Son -:- My opinion about it all.... -:- Sat, May 17, 1997 at 22:52:24 (EDT)
___Jim -:- Re: My opinion about it all.... -:- Sat, May 17, 1997 at 23:05:11 (EDT)
___op -:- Re: My opinion about it all.... -:- Sun, May 18, 1997 at 00:21:32 (EDT)
___Jim -:- Re: My opinion about it all.... -:- Sun, May 18, 1997 at 00:41:06 (EDT)
___Douche -:- Re: My opinion about it all.... -:- Sun, May 18, 1997 at 18:36:55 (EDT)

Jim -:- Fun on Harlan's page -:- Sat, May 17, 1997 at 21:10:03 (EDT)
___Mili -:- Re: Fun on Harlan's page -:- Sun, May 18, 1997 at 04:17:41 (EDT)


Date: Mon, May 19, 1997 at 11:32:00 (EDT)
Poster: Deena
Email:
To: Everyone
Subject: I watched a video last night
Message:
Last nite I watched my first video in almost 3 months! I wasn't prepared for what happened.
I sat down expecting to understand better since I cannot disagree that the message of 'appreciate appreciation' is one that anyone can embrace. I had hoped (I guess) to just hear wisdom, (new age or ancient), by a teacher (one of many out there) but what unfolded was something else.
The video was the anniversary event-July/96 in Miami.
He started right off separating what people believe reality is, and what is truely real. 'So many people, when things don't go right, say that's life' He goes on to explain that life is a gift a dream come true. That the beauty of 'the hues of the sunset don't attest-these are not symbols of pain and suffering'
Poetic references to nature continue to be illustrated (leaving out of course, the death cry of animals slowly killed by predators.)
He goes on to describe what reality is and the exclusiveness of what he offers as a way to experience reality. 'This is where the living are taught about ife- nowhere else. Nowhere else.' (Notice he repeats this for emphasis). 'This is the realm of knowledge. If you want to enter this world, the price- it's high! You need the heart of a child- where there is no place for doubt, no place for illusions, ready to listen, ready to absorb, not to question.'
'Don't think some rhetorical part of this should be questioned. It's for the heart.' (sounds like disqualifying critical thinking)
'Invest. Invest. Make an investment in you. The yields are wonderful. Make an investment in this existence. Make an investment in this knowledge. Make an investment in this freedom. Make an investment in this master. Good yields best returns, guaranteed.'
(When I use capitals, it is because he used it to emphasize when he is speaking)
'Learn to trust. This realm of knowledge. This world of knowledge. This world of knowledge and the master. THAT will be with you till your last breath. Think about it. Nothing else. Nothing else will do you any good. That's what reality is- not the reality that changes from one day to another- that's not reality. That's not the truth.'
'I can fill myself with that perfection. THAT is achieving THE goal of A lifetime. That's when everything is put where it belongs. The illusion is nicely placed in the illusionary chest, marked illusion. It's not thrown away. It can't be thrown away. Illusion becomes illusion. Sincerity becomes sincerity.'
He goes on to illustrate this by giving an example of a devotee in India, who upon being asked how he was, said 'By your grace I am wonderful.'
'People who have made that investment- it pays well. It's your opportunity. Your chance. Let it go to your heart, your heart and I concur. It's only this (pointing to his head) above the shoulders, that won't agree. The doubt isn't in the heart, it's clear. Yes.....Thanks for getting mind to hear too. Get mind to concur to the heart of a child. It can be done. DO IT.'
Here is a quote from Guru Papers:
'Any conflict disciples have above submitting to the Guru's authority is defined perjorativaly as resistence to a higher truth, the intrusion of ego, or a sign of unwillingness to give up attachments. Since surrender initially alleviates conflict and brings extremely good feelings, it is a powerful form of conditioning. If people end up feeling good and more open, they mistakenly conclude that whatever promoted it must also be true and good. This feeling good and opening boundaries are erroneously equated with truth. Conversley, anything that contradicts the guru's point of view is labeled negativity so information that runs counter to accepted beliefs is repressed and punished. This ploy conveniently prevents negative feelings from being used as feed-back that something is a miss.'
On a personal note, my husband would not speak to me about what I've written above. He reminded me that we have an agreement to keep it private because he feels I have one agenda and that is being abusive to him by trying to make him see what I see. I have no doubt that other premies reading this feel the same. I am sharing this with the ex-premies on this forum because they are interested.
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Date: Mon, May 19, 1997 at 13:00:26 (EDT)
Poster: Mili
Email:
To: Deena
Subject: Re: I watched a video last night
Message:
Was this the complete text, or did you just quote particular parts that you thought were well suited for your interpretation?
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Date: Mon, May 19, 1997 at 13:29:06 (EDT)
Poster: Mili
Email:
To: Deena
Subject: Re: I watched a video last night
Message:
I read this whole thing again and again, and I just can't find support for your conclusions (if any). The Guru Papers authors begin their 'analysis' by taking an axiom (unprovable statement) for granted, namely 'that something is amiss'. From that, they rationalize a quasi-psychological theory to support that statement. I don't see that it has any correspondence to what Maharaji said, at all.
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Date: Mon, May 19, 1997 at 15:16:22 (EDT)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: Deena
Subject: Re: I watched a video last night
Message:
Thanks Deena.
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Date: Mon, May 19, 1997 at 15:18:48 (EDT)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: Mili
Subject: Re: I watched a video last night
Message:
You're suych a phony. You pretend to be fully willing to think but when you get cornered you respond like you did
to Brian below -- 'can't use the mind, rahter watch video.'
Really, when I finally stop doing this, I'll miss the cheap
righteousness I feel dealing with your idiocy.
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Date: Tues, May 20, 1997 at 06:58:01 (EDT)
Poster: op
Email:
To: Mili et al
Subject: Re: I watched a video last night
Message:
Was this the complete text, or did you just quote particular parts that you thought were well suited for your interpretation?
Not only did she quote only particular parts - they aren't in order, and aren't always true to the original.
I made up a document in double column, showing where her quotes are out of order, what actually leads into some of the things she quoted out of context, editorial remarks that weren't pertinent, and various other items - and then decided it's certainly not worth it. Anyone who wants to can see the video - Miami, July 13, 1996, evening event.
But I don't think seeing the video is going to change the minds of those who've already written Maharaji off. No matter what he says, it's going to sound bitter to those who are carrying bitterness as a bannerhead.
By the way, Deena - if you see this. I use op in lower case because it's a description, not a name. It has nothing to do with being humble or not being humble. If you think I'm trying to play holier-than-thou so be it. I'm not.
When I'm writing for myself I don't pay any attention to rules of grammar - when I'm writing for others, I play by the book, for the most part.
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Date: Tues, May 20, 1997 at 11:04:09 (EDT)
Poster: op
Email:
To: op
Subject: Re: I watched a video last night
Message:
Didn't really mean to be so harsh about the video quotes. Actually, the meaning of a few of the items was not really altered. It's just that quoting out of context never lets people see the whole picture, so I don't think it's fair.
Maybe, just maybe, that's why Maharaji doesn't want his words to get printed on the net???
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Date: Tues, May 20, 1997 at 12:00:34 (EDT)
Poster: Deena
Email:
To: Everyone
Subject: Re: I watched a video last night
Message:
If I quoted MJ out of context, I thought I was following his lead, as I have a few publications from the past few years where quotes are used from different events and not put in any historically order in which they were said. And given nothing is done these days without his direct involvment I assume it's ok with him. The quotes I used were from one event and I tried as best I could from the scribbles I wrote of what I heard and these papers getting mixed up at one point in my hurry not to offend my husband's feelings in case he walked as I was doing this. Direct quotes in print isn't something new, he still does this and the only difference I can see with the net is public scrutiny.
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Date: Tues, May 20, 1997 at 12:02:54 (EDT)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: op
Subject: Re: I watched a video last night
Message:
Was this the complete text, or did you just quote particular parts that you thought were well suited for your interpretation?
Not only did she quote only particular parts - they aren't in order, and aren't always true to the original.
I made up a document in double column, showing where her quotes are out of order, what actually leads into some of the things she quoted out of context, editorial remarks that weren't pertinent, and various other items - and then decided it's certainly not worth it. Anyone who wants to can see the video - Miami, July 13, 1996, evening event.
But I don't think seeing the video is going to change the minds of those who've already written Maharaji off. No matter what he says, it's going to sound bitter to those who are carrying bitterness as a bannerhead.
By the way, Deena - if you see this. I use op in lower case because it's a description, not a name. It has nothing to do with being humble or not being humble. If you think I'm trying to play holier-than-thou so be it. I'm not.
When I'm writing for myself I don't pay any attention to rules of grammar - when I'm writing for others, I play by the book, for the most part.
OP,
Look at yourself. Look at yourself. You're willing to play sharp-tack accountant with all Maharaji's words, exploring for contextual exagerations, etc. Fine, detailed analysis, no? But that only works for the new Maharajispeak. It's vague enough and vapid enough that you might pull off what you're trying to do -- make it mean nothing.
On the other hand, when presented with some meaty but embarrasing passage from the past, like the one I put up from page 77 of WIGM? -- the one where it is extremely clearly said that the Knolwedge is transferred by touch, you just giggle. 'Oops, I don't have an answer.'
Maybe, OP, you DO have an answer but you're unwilling to look at it. Integrity? Or are you going to pretend that you don't know what that means?
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Date: Tues, May 20, 1997 at 13:13:33 (EDT)
Poster: Mili
Email:
To: op
Subject: Re: I watched a video last night
Message:
Suggesting to Jim not to quote out of context? Why, he EXISTS that way.
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Date: Mon, May 19, 1997 at 06:39:32 (EDT)
Poster: Mili
Email:
To: Everyone
Subject: A Question for Deena
Message:
I have had Knowledge for some twenty years now. Been practicing on and off, there were some years when I was following Mji's instructions by the book, but mostly I was doing it my way. Practicing whenever I felt like it. Sometimes I was not practicing for years at all. I have no doubt that receiving Knowledge was the decisive factor in getting myself together enough to finish university. After that I did a year of army service. Since then, I've worked in my profession, eventually culminating with a four year stint with UNICEF. I've met many honest and dedicated people there.
I think I've led a pretty normal life so far, no complaints, and I increasingly felt Knowledge was an asset, an improvement of the quality of living. Now I am asking you, what the hell is so detrimental about it, and how do you expect me to believe that I was a member of a 'dangerous cult' all this time? What's so bad about it? If it hasn't harmed me for the past twenty years, why should I think it would bring me any harm in the future? How has it actually harmed you?
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Date: Mon, May 19, 1997 at 11:34:48 (EDT)
Poster: Deena
Email:
To: Mili
Subject: Re: A Question for Deena
Message:
Please read the above post titled 'I watched a video last night' I will answer your question at a later date, but right now that post is all I have time for today.
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Date: Mon, May 19, 1997 at 04:02:24 (EDT)
Poster: Mili
Email:
To: Everyone
Subject: A Poem by Bullashah
Message:
A Poem by Bullashah

THOU are the Light of the world,
Everything depends on Thee,
Seeing through the eyes of all,
Thou perceivest both darkness and light;
Dreaming, waking and deep sleep,
Pass before Thee again and again.
Bullashah says: Thou art self-shining,
There is no change in Thee.

There is no flaw in Thee,
Thou art perfect and whole;
Search where Thou wilt in all the world,
Thou seest nought but Thine own reflection.
As a sleeper forgets that he is dreaming,
So dost Thou forget that this world is but Thy dream.
Says Bullashah: There is nothing but Thee,
Thy distress is Thine own illusion.

Enter Thine own Self
And know Thou art the support of the universe;
When Thou shinest, the whole world is lit;
The phantom that causes Thee to tremble is
Thine own projection.
Says Bullashah: Give up this illusion
And break the net of separatness.

Seen in what guises the Lord is manifest everywhere!
As a single seed assumes different forms,
So has the Self become the world.
He is sporting by Himself;
Woman, and man is He;
He loves, pursues and is pursued.
In reality, says Bullashah, nothing has happened.
They know Him whom He wishes to know Him.

Thy Friend is never separated from thee;
Whom dost thou seek?
Discover first the seeker who is evident in thee;
Surely, thou thyself are the object of all desires,
Thou art the only Friend of the world;
Yet thou seekest after whom? Tell us.

Be content with thy circumstances,
Do not be blinded by glamour;
Fix thine attention on the seed,
Ignore the branches, leaves and fruit.
That which comes and goes is transient,
The wise do not become attached to it.
Bullashah says: I have tasted the real Nectar;
The poison of the senses no longer attracts me.

Silencing the din of thy wandering thoughts,
Be still and learn what thou art!
Give up wordly desires;
This is what thy Guru has taught thee
Bind thy wayward longings with the cord of detachment;
Know thy real Self.
Says Bullashah: Only thus shalt thou attain peace.

My mind is fixed on the indifferent One!
My eyes seek His face, my heart loves Him alone.
The ignorant deplore my conduct,
They try to draw me from Him - I only weep.
The priests and theologians threaten me with perdition
And instruct me in rituals,
But what has my love to do with these?
My Lord lives beyond the torrent
And I must meet Him there;
Who will tell me how to cross it?
A lover follows his love whatever betide!
Says Bullashah: I go to meet my God.

They turn their faces from all else
Who have seen the Beloved!
Once only have they seen the Adorable One
And their gaze is eternally fixed on Him.
Day and night they wander lost in wonder,
Without ever treading in the mud of "I" and "mine".
Bullashah says: They have become the Beloved Himself;
The relationship of lover and beloved is dissolved.
Having sacrificed the little self,
I have found the Friend
And lost all consciousness of the world!
My anxieties are past forever;
My mind is lost in bliss!
I am merged in happiness
And experience eternal peace;
The spiritual fire has consumed duality.
Bullashah says: I have embraced the Friend.

Thou art the Lotus and my eyes the bees
That seek Thee ever and cannot leave Thee;
Drinking the nectar of Thine essence,
They are drowned in Thy love;
They are drunk with thy sweetness
And dissolve in the wine of Thy beauty.

Bullashah was a native of Punjab, born in the 18th century, who rose to great eminence as a mystic teacher of the Advaita Vedanta.
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Date: Mon, May 19, 1997 at 06:40:53 (EDT)
Poster: Mili
Email:
To: Mili
Subject: Re: A Poem by Bullashah
Message:
Sorry for the blank - I got the font colour wrong. This was written in the 17th century. Is anything different now?
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Date: Mon, May 19, 1997 at 09:30:25 (EDT)
Poster: op
Email:
To: Mili
Subject: Re: A Poem by Bullashah
Message:
Sorry for the blank - I got the font colour wrong. This was written in the 17th century. Is anything different now?

And I thought that first post was a great mystical comment on the state of things. Did you ever read 'Monkey'? About Buddhist monkey's trip to India to retrieve the original scriptures. After years of adventure and misadventure, suffering and tribulations through an entire mythology of places and characters, monkey finally gets his hands on the original book of great wisdom. All its pages are blank.
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Date: Tues, May 20, 1997 at 06:37:51 (EDT)
Poster: op
Email:
To: Mili
Subject: Re: A Poem by Bullashah
Message:
by the way, if you cut and paste the blank page, ... just try it!
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Date: Tues, May 20, 1997 at 07:39:38 (EDT)
Poster: Mili
Email:
To: op
Subject: Re: A Poem by Bullashah
Message:
We live in an universe full of wonders! (Just kidding.) ;=)
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Date: Mon, May 19, 1997 at 01:18:12 (EDT)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: Everyone
Subject: Guru Maharaj Ji's Commandments
Message:
In addition to being revealed the meditation techniques, everyone who receives knowledge in Guru Maharaj Ji's cult, is given Maharaj Ji's Commandments. Unlike the ones Moses got, I think Guru Maharaj Ji imposed only four or five.
I think one the most blatant and overt pieces of evidence that Guru Maharaj Ji heads a destructive cult is the last Commandment: 'NEVER LEAVE ROOM FOR DOUBT IN YOUR MIND;' Translation: Do NOT Think. This commandment also has to be taken in context with the many statements made by Maharaj Ji that your mind is basically equivalent to the devil and you should use meditation to stop thinking. The result of following that commandment is to be like OP, completely unable to have any objectivity whatsoever about what she believes, despite being presented strong evidence that would induce doubt in a non-programmed person.
This commandment, along with the demands for faith in and surrender to GMJ basically kept me in Guru Maharaj Ji's cult for years, because if I followed the commandment I had no way to evaluate what was happening to me. Those who were better at repressing their own judgments and thoughts, were obviously more likely to stay programmed and to stay in the cult.
I guess my question is, if GMJ is just revealing the beautiful essence of yourself and a peace within you, why does he need to impose a commandment like that on people who receive knowlege, and why does he also have to trash and demonize thought and intellect the way he does? It's like he says he will reveal something real and beautiful to you, but then you may never judge for yourself if it or he is real or a fraud because that would be doubt, and thou shalt not doubt.
I guess it must be for the same reason Guru Maharaj Ji is so afraid of open dialogue about him or what he does. Openness is the enemy of someone who is trying to suck you in.
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Date: Mon, May 19, 1997 at 03:08:10 (EDT)
Poster: op
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: Guru Maharaj Ji's Commandments
Message:
See my response to you under 'why is M afraid...' below, posted at 01:56.
The 'commandments' unfortunately came as part of the India trappings. For Indians, these are venerable and worthy statements - blueprints for becoming a saint - 'always meditate and remember the Holy Name' - 'never delay in attending Satsang'...
For Westerners, not being part of our heritage, they were rules that when taken at face value seemed to undermine every freedom we grew up worshipping.
So Maharaji dropped them. They too were part of his heritage - drawn up by his father. But he did drop them, so you are incorrect in saying 'everyone who received Knowledge...is given M's commandments'.
There are three things he asks for and we've been over those several times. But I'll repeat them for the record:
1) don't reveal the techniques to anyone
2) give Knowledge a fair chance
3) keep in touch
The result of following that commandment is to be like OP, completely unable to have any objectivity whatsoever about what she believes, despite being presented strong evidence that would induce doubt in a non-programmed person.
Okay, you've reached your conclusion. Now read the post I left you below.
I agree I'm not objective. Neither are you. Neither is anyone who's ever had contact with Maharaji or premies. I'm not objective about my children either, nor about my job or my husband, and least of all about myself.
I think you need a panel of non-interested parties to take a look at who's programmed and who's not programmed. There's an awful lot of repetitiousness on this forum. Maybe a really objective voice could sort through some of the shit and throw away what is really unnecessary.
Not in order, but:
This commandment also has to be taken in context with the many statements made by Maharaj Ji that your mind is basically equivalent to the devil and you should use meditation to stop thinking.
No. Meditation is used to reach a place within yourself - how did you describe it? 'the beautiful essence of yourself and a peace within you' - and in order to reach that place you have to go beyond the intellect. The intellect has a very specific purpose and human beings cannot survive without it. But an entire group of human characteristics - intellect, ego, emotional desires - is in constant motion and thus distracts the consciousness from reaching a state of inner equanimity - i.e. peace and harmony. So these must be put aside while practicing the techniques of Knowledge.
As I said below, if you really didn't get the message and all you experienced was negativity, you did absolutely right in leaving. Nothing wrong with that.
There are plenty of people who have experienced something else, and they continue to practice and enjoy the experience immensely. What I object to is that you insist that can't be true, simply because YOU didn't experience it.
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Date: Mon, May 19, 1997 at 12:38:37 (EDT)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: op
Subject: Re: Guru Maharaj Ji's Commandments
Message:
So, the new, Maharaj Ji Lite, used to tell people not to think, (and I think don't doubt, taken literally, means much the same thing) but doesn't do that anymore, after he discovered that it was bad for westerners, and after he commanded it of them in the West for over ten years. Not exactly a ringing endorsement for someone who is asking people to accept him as their spiritual master/guide. He would fail and analysis by Consumer Reports because that is a particularly crummy track record for guiding and taking care of his followers. At a minimum, people should be able to evaluate what Guru Maharaj Ji has done/taught/lived in the past, when making an evaluation of whether to get involved with him. That is why it is particularly reprehensible that there is an attempt to cover the historical Guru Maharaj Ji up, or at least cover-over the embarrassing parts. Open dialogue can be an antidote to that, which GMj opposes for obvious reasons, but maybe some of that can come out in places like this.
I think you were fortunate that you apparently didn't take much GMJ said over the years literally. You just interpreted it the way you wanted to and went on your way, and hence were protected from the more damaging stuff he did. I think many people tried to take what GMJ said, especially what he COMMANDED, at face value, because he asked for them to surrender their minds to him and they trusted him because he was their lord and master and conducted himself as if he was. I think it is more likely that your interpretation of the don't doubt commandment is at best strained, and probably revisionist, in an attempt to once again sluff off the contradictions with a new and improved interpretation in hindsight.
Yes, OP, I don't know what you really think or feel or what your motivations are for participating here. But, based on your arguments, to the effect that anything that was negative or hurt people about Maharaj Ji, like the thou shalt not doubt commandment, was due to the fact that his stupid followers interpreted his commandment wrong, or was due to the actions of other people and beyond GMJ's control, or was just due to some cultural misunderstanding, is sohistry in is the extreme and insulting to my and other peoples' intelligence. He held himself out to be all knowing and all powerful for god's sake, or at a minimum, allowed those labels to be put on him without comment. You don't allow yourself to be proclaimed god and then claim, [or I guess you are making the claim on his behalf because he hasn't said much of anything about it], he just did't realize that people might take what he said and commmanded at face value. Golly.
I guess we were just too stupid, and should have realized that we were to ignore or re-interpret in any way we wanted, what he commanded. I guess the joke was on us. Was it the ultimate lila?
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Date: Mon, May 19, 1997 at 15:26:16 (EDT)
Poster: Chris
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: Guru Maharaj Ji's Commandments
Message:
The subject of 'doubt' is not a simple topic.
There do seem to be situations where doubt does leave open alternatives.
There are also a multitude of situations where doubt simply saps positive energy.
Which 'doubt' do you think M was refering to?
I tend to think the positive case you might choose the negative.
What is 'self esteem'? Not leaving room for doubts about youself.
The point is not to be an ignorant fool.
The point is to confront issues and attempt to resolve them.
Don't let unknown answers float around as lingering doubts.
To not favor the existance of doubt does not mean to not think.
In fact it really means to use what tools you have been given in life to elminate doubt and embrace what is positive.
You might even check out other sources such as:
'Think and Grow Rich' - Napolean Hill
'Success is a Choice' - Pitino
to see what others say about the destructive potential of doubt.
The essence of what M is saying about the mind, life, doubt, knowledge, etc... has not changed since I first starting hearing his talks back in 1972.
There is no 'M Lite'.
Look how long and in what a variety of ways people have interpreted the words of the 'Bible'.
Even those famous first lines. And of course is it the 'light that shines in or on all men'.
Some translations have 'in' some have 'on'.
The so called 'M commandments' will be treated in the same way.
That is why there is no emphasis on any 'commandments'.
The heart of the whole thing is the Knowledge experience.
Was in 1972 and still is in 1997.
CD
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Date: Mon, May 19, 1997 at 15:28:53 (EDT)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: op
Subject: Re: Guru Maharaj Ji's Commandments
Message:
OP, I taste blood. Your suggestion of a panel of 'objective' people --
'judges' perhaps? -- is excellent. Of course, we don't have
them so let's imagine.
Let's imagine what criteria they'd go by. I say they'd do
what judges have always done. They listen to the questions and
answers. For example, how do you think they'd deal with
the fact taht Maharaji laid out the golden road -- the timeless path to perfection --
and then, bit by bit, tried to change the whole thing? How about
his promise to bring peace to the world? Or his claim to be
God? Or any of the other countless inconsistencies?
How about on a personal level? Here's a so-called teacher unwilling to
face his former followers. Unwilling to answer any of these
same hard questions the judges would be intersted in.
OP, you've got a head on your shoulders. Use it. You know that
the world would take about three seconds to examine Maharaji from
start of career to present and dismiss him without a moment's
hesitation. Lord? Greatest Incarnation to EVer Troid the Planet?
Holy Family? God in Human Form? Saviour of Mankind? A Thousand
Years of Peace? Durga Ji, The Goddess of Love?
At a very minimum, the judges would say thyis LOOKS absolutely
bogus but, fair is fair, maybe we shgould give the little guy a
chance to defend himself. What? He won't speak to anyone but
in his protected, controlled setting? I'm afraid that
wouldn't impress the judges too much. I'm afraid at that
point they'd say if it looks like a duck, and it quacks like a duck....
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Date: Mon, May 19, 1997 at 15:33:55 (EDT)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: Chris
Subject: Re: Guru Maharaj Ji's Commandments
Message:
Chris, just when I think Mili's the stupidest person posting here I
read something else of yours. You're too much man. I lost your
phone number but I'd love to speak with you. Would you please
email me it again -- heller@islandnet.com
Thanks.
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Date: Mon, May 19, 1997 at 15:47:10 (EDT)
Poster: Chris
Email:
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Guru Maharaj Ji's Commandments
Message:
Jim, Yes, you are right.
Love flourishes in history and in this society and world because of courts, lawyers and judges.
I do believe you when you say: 'OP, I taste blood.'
CD
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Date: Mon, May 19, 1997 at 15:58:21 (EDT)
Poster: Chris
Email:
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Guru Maharaj Ji's Commandments
Message:

Chris, just when I think Mili's the stupidest person posting here I
read something else of yours. You're too much man. I lost your
phone number but I'd love to speak with you. Would you please
email me it again -- heller@islandnet.com
Thanks.

Considering your friendly reply, a good title for you would be: 'Bombardiers' by Po Bronson
Who cares about 'doubt' when there is money to be made!
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Date: Mon, May 19, 1997 at 17:16:39 (EDT)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: Chris
Subject: Re: Guru Maharaj Ji's Commandments
Message:
Well, I guess you and OP disagree about whether the commandments of Guru Maharaj Ji have changed. She says they have.
And this is not an issue of inconsistencies in some ancient translation. We, you and I, were followers of Guru Maharaj Ji when he commanded us to NEVER LEAVE ROOM FOR DOUBT IN YOUR MIND......................and when he told us we were supposed to try to meditate 24 hours a day. OP says he does neither of those things anymore, apparently dismissing them as some Hindi folderol. That is a BIG change since 1972, in fact a big change since I left in 1983.
I agree that doubt is not a simple topic. The problem for a lot of us who were once devotees of Guru Maharaj Ji was that he turned it into a simple topic by telling us just not to do it,....Period.
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Date: Mon, May 19, 1997 at 17:29:37 (EDT)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: Guru Maharaj Ji's Commandments
Message:
Of course you're right, JW. You're right about doubt and I'm right about the laying on of hands. Can you imagine being OP right now? She reads our simple, common-sense connect-the-dots (it isn't rocket science what we're saying) and bit by bit she sees that there's no way to rationally defend Maharaji. What do you think she's going to do?
My guess is that she will, sooner rather than later, tell us, as did Lance Tane on the newsgroup, that she simply can't defend her belief rationally and will solemnly beg off. She'll describe her time here rather whimsically in general, concluding terms. She'll try to end on a nice, personal note. But she'll be off.
Mili will stick around blaming us for chasing her away. Chris will also stick around like a bad cold.
OR -- OP will admit that Maharaji's a fraud.
Yeah, right!
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Date: Mon, May 19, 1997 at 17:58:27 (EDT)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Guru Maharaj Ji's Commandments
Message:
I disagree. I think OP will tell us that she still relies on THAT EXPERIENCE inside her which is so beautiful and is the only constant in her life, even though all else changes and she has faith in GMJ because he is responsible for revealing it to her and nothing else matters, and also she spent a lot of time with GMJ in 1971 and she feels a lot of personal loyalty to him, which is the main reason she defends him here. And that she is not convinced by what we say, and that she just saw another video that reinforced her love for GMJ.
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Date: Mon, May 19, 1997 at 19:25:29 (EDT)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: Guru Maharaj Ji's Commandments
Message:
But how could she skirt the issues so broadly? See, I think OP's got a little more self-respect than that. Don't forget, she speaks as if she's at least TRYING to answer all questions. She'd at least have to back off from that perch if you were right.
OP?
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Date: Mon, May 19, 1997 at 20:07:56 (EDT)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Guru Maharaj Ji's Commandments
Message:
She'd say she's not perfect and makes mistakes and she even said, I think one time, that Maharaj Ji makes mistakes too.
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Date: Mon, May 19, 1997 at 20:21:09 (EDT)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: Guru Maharaj Ji's Commandments
Message:
Okay, JW, but Maharaji not getting all the states capitols right is one thing. Not knowing the first thing about his supposed process for revealing truth is another. Check out the passage from WIGM? I just put up on that top thread 'Am I the only one?'. You, too, OP.
By the way, am I the only one who noticed how OP seemed a little 'caught' when confronted with this old Maharaji dogma? She never said she was surpirsed anyone said stuff like that. How could she? It was the only party line. Indeed, she herslef spouted it several times aday just like the rest of us. No, she was surpirsed that there was still some record of it that she'd have to deal with. Did you notice that?
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Date: Mon, May 19, 1997 at 20:32:58 (EDT)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Guru Maharaj Ji's Commandments
Message:
Okay, how about this: Since he's all knowing and all powerful and the source of the experience, he can change the way it is revealed anytime he wants to.
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Date: Mon, May 19, 1997 at 20:57:49 (EDT)
Poster: op
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: Guru Maharaj Ji's Commandments
Message:
The subject of 'doubt' is not a simple topic.There do seem to be situations where doubt does leave open alternatives.There are also a multitude of situations where doubt simply saps positive energy.Which 'doubt' do you think M was refering to?I tend to think the positive case you might choose the negative.What is 'self esteem'? Not leaving room for doubts about youself.The point is not to be an ignorant fool.The point is to confront issues and attempt to resolve them.Don't let unknown answers float around as lingering doubts.To not favor the existance of doubt does not mean to not think.In fact it really means to use what tools you have been given in life to elminate doubt and embrace what is positive.You might even check out other sources such as:'Think and Grow Rich' - Napolean Hill'Success is a Choice' - Pitinoto see what others say about the destructive potential of doubt.The essence of what M is saying about the mind, life, doubt, knowledge, etc... has not changed since I first starting hearing his talks back in 1972.There is no 'M Lite'.Look how long and in what a variety of ways people have interpreted the words of the 'Bible'.Even those famous first lines. And of course is it the 'light that shines in or on all men'.Some translations have 'in' some have 'on'.The so called 'M commandments' will be treated in the same way.That is why there is no emphasis on any 'commandments'.The heart of the whole thing is the Knowledge experience.Was in 1972 and still is in 1997.CD
See? I'm not the only one who saw it from a perspective other than blindness and autism.
I've got a nice juicy answer for you about this whole topic. It's cooking, and it needs a few more ingredients, so you'll have to be patient.
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Date: Mon, May 19, 1997 at 21:03:25 (EDT)
Poster: op
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: Guru Maharaj Ji's Commandments
Message:
Well, I guess you and OP disagree about whether the commandments of Guru Maharaj Ji have changed. She says they have.
Please be specific when you quote me. I said Maharaji dropped them, not changed them. I have not seen a copy of them other than in ancient premie photo albums for at least 10 years.
Unless you are simply referring to what he asks for during a Knowledge session - semantics here, but the promises he asks for are not known as 'commandments'.
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Date: Mon, May 19, 1997 at 21:05:49 (EDT)
Poster: guess who?
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: Guru Maharaj Ji's Commandments
Message:
She'd say she's not perfect and makes mistakes and she even said, I think one time, that Maharaj Ji makes mistakes too.
yup, I did.
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Date: Mon, May 19, 1997 at 21:09:19 (EDT)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: op
Subject: Re: Guru Maharaj Ji's Commandments
Message:
If Chris is your measure of anything you're in trouble.
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Date: Mon, May 19, 1997 at 21:11:53 (EDT)
Poster: op
Email:
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Guru Maharaj Ji's Commandments
Message:
Jim, are you really blind? Or simply unable to decipher a sentence?
I was talking about a panel to figure out who on this FORUM has been brainwashed. Not trial lawyers and circuit court judges, but people who have real training in working with people whose minds have been rearranged by external controlling forces.
And these experts could interview, in depth, every person on this forum and see if they can find traces of mind control. Or huge chunks of mind control.
Please keep your private fantasies in check.
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Date: Mon, May 19, 1997 at 21:17:19 (EDT)
Poster: op
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: Guru Maharaj Ji's Commandments
Message:
Okay, how about this: Since he's all knowing and all powerful and the source of the experience, he can change the way it is revealed anytime he wants to.
bingo!
(if you want it to be)
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Date: Mon, May 19, 1997 at 22:44:25 (EDT)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: op
Subject: Re: Guru Maharaj Ji's Commandments
Message:
Sorry, I must have misunderstood. So, tell me, what do you expect your experts in mind control to look for? How about a default capacity to rationalize away all inconsistencies, large and small? An inability to grapple FAIRLY with hard questions (e.g. your spurious explanation of 'leave no room for doubt in your mind')? An unquestioning acceptance of authority ('they're his techniques, he can do what he wnts with them')?
OP, you are a perfect example of a captive mind.
By the by, what do you really think you're saying when you say they're M's techniques?
As for this snotty comment:
'Please keep your private fantasies in check.'
aren't you the same person who just a few moments ago posted this:
'ASIDE, JUST FOR FUN: I could tell you that I had my own fantasy about OJ. I kept hoping the killing had been a total drug assassination. That OJ had arrived at an inoportune moment, seen the whole thing, perhaps even tried to defend Nicole, or cradled her in his arms after her defeat and thus become bloodied. And he knew that if he ever breathed a word of who the Horrible Demon Drug Lords are who did it, he'd be deader than Nicole in a flash. So he has to defend his innocence from a point of utter impossibility.
I know that's a fantasy. It would have made a good story.'
Odl, OP, or whatever your name is -- hey, what IS your name? Why the secrecy? -- I'm waiting anxiously for your response to the material shift in dogma. The book clearly says you need the touch -- always have, always will. Was that bullshit? If so, why didn't Maharaji say something?
Yeah, keep a mind on your fictional mind control experts when you're answering this one, will you? Might shorten things a bit.
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Date: Mon, May 19, 1997 at 23:36:10 (EDT)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: op
Subject: Re: Guru Maharaj Ji's Commandments
Message:
Semantics! Dropping the commandments is most definitely a change and Chris says NOTHING has changed since 1972.
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Date: Mon, May 19, 1997 at 23:41:02 (EDT)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: op
Subject: Re: Guru Maharaj Ji's Commandments
Message:
No, again, Chris just does a haiku and says nothing has changed since 1972. You said MJ just dropped the commandments entirely. I also suspect that miopic reviews of history, mental gymnastics to deal with contradictions and the common sense meaning of words and comfort with cognotive dissonance is common among premies. I'll it admit, it was with me too.
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Date: Tues, May 20, 1997 at 03:16:47 (EDT)
Poster: Mili
Email:
To: Chris
Subject: Re: Guru Maharaj Ji's Commandments
Message:
Jim, Yes, you are right.
Love flourishes in history and in this society and world because of courts, lawyers and judges.
I do believe you when you say: 'OP, I taste blood.'
CD
Hey guys, remember the story of the dog that gnawed on the bone so hard that its gums started to bleed? He tasted blood and started gnawing even harder. Jim, does this ring a bell?
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Date: Tues, May 20, 1997 at 11:39:53 (EDT)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: Mili
Subject: Re: Guru Maharaj Ji's Commandments
Message:
Mili,
Thank you for your spiritual counselling. I look forward to your publishing some of your adivce on your web page someday.
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Date: Sun, May 18, 1997 at 21:29:45 (EDT)
Poster: Mili
Email:
To: Everyone
Subject: To Brian
Message:
Mili, until you come to understand that what you meditate on is something that was there before it was 'revealed', and that it is separate from the person that people are lambasting on this site (MJ), you're not going to get it. Why don't you view yourself as being with Jim when you meditate? Or me? Or Jesus? Why don't you feel you're with Hans Ji Maharaj when you meditate? Do you think MJ feels like he's with you when and if he meditates?
That's really silly of you, Brian - I only became aware of it when I meditated on it! The person who first told me about it was Mji, and if you really look at it in a practical way (not making a crappy theory about it as a lot of people posting here are prone to do), you will find that the actual experience most likely happens when you are around Mji, or trying to do what he says. I can testify to that, and so can a lot of other people. There is a practical reason to that - unlike Jim, or you, Mji is revealing the techniques and actually motivating people to use them (by his own example)! Of course, what you get out of the techniques is your OWN experience and Mji never said anything to the contrary. As a matter of fact, he stated repeatedly that 'it's your own gold mine' and 'it's not something I am giving to you out of my own pocket, but it's your own effort' and the same in so many different ways. I just meditated a few minutes ago, and I just wanted to tell you that it works! It was extremely pleasant and blissful. There was inner Light and Sound, and a blissful feeling inside, where you might say the soul is. It is very fulfilling and exhilarating! And while I was doing it I wasn't visualising or thinking about Maharaji, either. I was too busy enjoying the experience! The 'thank you' came a little later.
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Date: Sun, May 18, 1997 at 20:31:18 (EDT)
Poster: Deena
Email:
To: Douche and Brian
Subject: To Douche and Brian
Message:
I just read some of your posts and thoroughly enjoyed them. I just wanted to mention this because I throw JW's and Jim's names around a lot. But you guys contribute equally to this forum and I appreciate it.
Intelligent, AND amusing.
Thanx
Deena
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Date: Mon, May 19, 1997 at 03:46:23 (EDT)
Poster: Douche
Email:
To: Deena
Subject: Re: To Douche and Brian
Message:
Glad to be of some assistance, maam.
Douche
P.S. Forgive my laziness in not checking back, but is your son Gunther Glockenspiel? I wish someone would create a little mini-bio post which could be repeated on all the archives just so that readers like me with failing memories could get an idea of who's who. We could include a rating system from 1 for those who believe Big M is an out-and-out crook to 10 for those who believe he's the Lord of the Universe. Anyone got any ideas for clasifying 2 to 9?
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Date: Mon, May 19, 1997 at 05:59:01 (EDT)
Poster: Brian
Email:
To: Deena
Subject: Re: To Douche and Brian
Message:
Deena my love, you were going to write me email. I included the address in this header.
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Date: Sun, May 18, 1997 at 12:31:12 (EDT)
Poster: Kurt Andersen
Email:
To: Everyone
Subject: Article on Maharaji
Message:
Again, thanks to all of you who have assisted me with this article I'm writing for the New Yorker. (Jim Heller: I will indeed call you this week, after I'm done with a draft, and will return your book, and will cover your FedEx bill.)
Some weeks ago a former premie called MATT C. posted some comments here that I found interesting. Is he still here? Does anyone know an e-mail address for him? I'd very much like to talk/email to him. Thanks for your help.
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Date: Sun, May 18, 1997 at 16:14:39 (EDT)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: Kurt Andersen
Subject: Re: Article on Maharaji
Message:
Thanks Kurt,
But I've got to tell you, a strange, fantastic thing has happened to me.
I had a dream last night. In it, Mahatma Fakiranand was smashing ME in the head
with a hammer. But instead of dying or even losing consciousness,
I flashed into a bizarre, extremely well-lit dimension of sorts.
Actually, it was professionally lit as I soon realized I
was in some sort of cheap, chain photography studio. You know
the kind that shoots package family portraits for young, struggling
families? You can keep whatever shots you want, no obligation,
glossy is nice but we think this picture, where your baby
ISN'T crying, would look beautiful in a nice, subtle mat? That kind.
There, on a small dais in the center of the room, Maharaji
was sitting. I knew he was waiting for me. In fact, he looked
like he had been waiting forever. I felt myself drawn
towards him. Deeply. I knew instinctively that, at last, I was
going to have my picture taken with Maharaji.
Suddenly, like I was three all over again, I felt afraid
and started to cry. Maharaji smiled and that only made things
worse.
So, Kurt, I'm not so sure where I stand on things. Really,
if Maharaji would just answer my letter.
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Date: Mon, May 19, 1997 at 13:44:12 (EDT)
Poster: Kurt Andersen
Email:
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Article on Maharaji
Message:
Gosh, I guess you cultists are a bunch of nuts, after all.
Just kidding. I'll talk to you soon.
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Date: Mon, May 19, 1997 at 15:38:41 (EDT)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: Kurt Andersen
Subject: Re: Article on Maharaji
Message:
Kurt, I think I've struck gold of sorts with this laying on of hands thing. There's the nub.
You've got the book, check it out. (Oh, sorry, I'm referring to the stuff
OP and I are discussing down under 'cult')
Thanks,
Jim
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Date: Mon, May 19, 1997 at 19:05:02 (EDT)
Poster: Chris
Email:
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Article on Maharaji
Message:

Kurt, I think I've struck gold of sorts with this laying on of hands thing. There's the nub.
You've got the book, check it out. (Oh, sorry, I'm referring to the stuff
OP and I are discussing down under 'cult')
Thanks,
Jim

Did you have an interesting experience in your Knowledge session the way it was run?
Are you saying it was a flop, fools gold?
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Date: Mon, May 19, 1997 at 19:36:59 (EDT)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: Chris
Subject: Re: Article on Maharaji
Message:
Thanks for asking Chris.
Yes, fools gold exactly. The 'light' was just what you'd expect to see if you squeezed your eyeballs. Yet we were told that Mahatma Ji had just given us rebirth. It had nothing to do with his careful description. After all, half these guys couldn't really speak English. It was just the Grace. Through Maharaji's Grace he supposedly touched us and opened our third eyes.
Not only do I say that's bullshit. Apparently, to hear OP explain things, Maharaji does too.
It's all just new age silliness. Nothing special. A carny show.
But then again, maybe I'm wrong. How do YOU explain the change from Knolwedge requiring the laying on of hands to it not?
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Date: Mon, May 19, 1997 at 20:25:36 (EDT)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Article on Maharaji
Message:
I should have paid more attention to the laying of hands business. Duh. I guess what I didn't understand and do now is that in knowledge sesions nowadays, aspirants are shown HOW to do the techniques via example or via video and they just do it themselves, without MJ or a delegated Initiator/Instructor who is MJ's representative actually touching them. Duh. That is a big change and now I recall that we were told Mahatmas were given the grace by GMJ to reveal knowlege by touch. Okay, now I get it. By the way, I think the Western Initiators in the 70s and early 80s were told the same thing by GMJ himself.
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Date: Mon, May 19, 1997 at 22:24:29 (EDT)
Poster: Chris
Email:
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Article on Maharaji
Message:
You must surely know from experience that there are times when you really experience something great.
It has very little to do with squeezing your eyeballs as you must also know from your own attempts.
It has everything to do with reaching a point when your mind stills and something else becomes apparent.
Sometimes it suprises you when you become humble after vain attempts to produce a sensation.
I don't have any explanation for current Knowledge sessions.
I haven't attended one and don't know all the details.
I have never known why I had the Knowledge session experience that I did.
It just happened.
It is still one of the things that I can remember fairly clearly even after so many years.
It definitely was a memorable event for me.
I did not start flying into another dimension but did have a beautiful feeling overtake me when I was shown the 1st technique.
I like the analogy of a tree growing.
A small seed is planted and if you water it something beautiful takes place.
There really is no comprehensive scientific explanation of how that little seed becomes the tree.
Today, most people would take that incredible growth process for granted amidst the bustle of our modern world and supposed prowess as demonstrated by feats of high rise construction and electronic marvels.
Still, a seed turning into a tree is really a miracle as are the stars on a quiet night in the desert.
And so is the experience of your own life that is possible through the process of practicing the simple Knowledge techniques.
CD
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Date: Mon, May 19, 1997 at 22:35:10 (EDT)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: Chris
Subject: Re: Article on Maharaji
Message:
Chris, email me your phone number. We have to talk.
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Date: Tues, May 20, 1997 at 00:10:04 (EDT)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: Chris
Subject: Re: Article on Maharaji
Message:
You must surely know from experience that there are times when you really experience something great.
It has very little to do with squeezing your eyeballs as you must also know from your own attempts.
It has everything to do with reaching a point when your mind stills and something else becomes apparent.
Sometimes it suprises you when you become humble after vain attempts to produce a sensation.
I don't have any explanation for current Knowledge sessions.
I haven't attended one and don't know all the details.
I have never known why I had the Knowledge session experience that I did.
It just happened.
It is still one of the things that I can remember fairly clearly even after so many years.
It definitely was a memorable event for me.
I did not start flying into another dimension but did have a beautiful feeling overtake me when I was shown the 1st technique.
I like the analogy of a tree growing.
A small seed is planted and if you water it something beautiful takes place.
There really is no comprehensive scientific explanation of how that little seed becomes the tree.
Today, most people would take that incredible growth process for granted amidst the bustle of our modern world and supposed prowess as demonstrated by feats of high rise construction and electronic marvels.
Still, a seed turning into a tree is really a miracle as are the stars on a quiet night in the desert.
And so is the experience of your own life that is possible through the process of practicing the simple Knowledge techniques.
CD
Do you agree with what Jim quoted from Who Is Guru Maharaj Ji? that if you receive knowlege you become luckier and coincidences begin to go your way? Boy, that would be a cool positive point about knowledge, I mean in addition to the mind stopping stuff.
Really, I have been a long-distance runner for many years. I have the exact same experience when I get into the rhytmn of running as when I used to sit in meditation. I had it before and after I received knowledge. Now, I don't have a big title for my running experience, and I don't have a running guru and I never lived in a running ashram and I never tried to surrender to running, and I didn't give all my money to running, or trash my career so that I could dedicate my life to running, and I never tried to stop thinking or doubting/evaluating the benefits of running because I was afraid I would stop if I did, and I didn't reject my family so that I could run. So, running is a lot better than Guru Maharaj Ji, in my book, because Maharaj Ji required all that stuff and it had negative effects on my life. But boy, he sure got rich in the process.
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Date: Tues, May 20, 1997 at 02:10:47 (EDT)
Poster: Chris
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: Article on Maharaji
Message:
I don't know of people who do long distance running without some discipline for it.
You certainly do make some tradeoffs to be a decent runner.
They appear to be trade offs that you are accustomed to and comfortable with.
I know what you are saying about getting a satisfied feeling by running.
Having a really good electric guitar jam can cause pretty good feelings to manifest.
It does take some practice time and discipline to get to that level but certainly can be worth it.
Surfing was an energetic activity that I used to do and get a good feeling from.
As far as coincidences and luck go, who knows?
There does seem to be some truth in that more comes your way when you are aware and have goals.
It is curious that you give an honest account of your point of view and then you have to get in that closing money jab.
I am working on making some more money too.
I know. It takes extra discipline. Oh well.
Maharaji is a good speaker. You actually learned quite a lot.
CD
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Date: Sun, May 18, 1997 at 04:00:34 (EDT)
Poster: Deena
Email:
To: Everyone
Subject: 23 years ago I became an aspirant
Message:
Twenty three years is a long time.
If only 23 years ago I had realized that yes, that fulfillment is within me and I can feel peace and claity in my life because I am alive in this moment called now and that is reason enough to celebrate and then share that by alleviating some of the suffering that others feel in their lives. If only Maharaji or Guru Maharaj ji (as he was known at that time) had been a savior and sharedt this wisdom and then walked out of my life forever.Why? Simply because it is not with meditation techniques combined with becoming a devotee to a living master that freedom occurs. Freedom is not following a charismatic leader who can lead followers any which way he deems is best for them ie: ashrams, no ashrams etc etc. and when those who express doubt are encouraged to come with a heart of a child and disregard their confusion, well...if the result is suicide or burn-out or mental breakdown then that is the responsibilty of those premies.
But of course if premie's experience bliss in their lives that is MJ's grace.
The anger I express sometimes towards premies on this forum is misdirected. It is meant for the perpatrator of the cult that they have become victims of.
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Date: Sun, May 18, 1997 at 04:25:30 (EDT)
Poster: Mili
Email:
To: Deena
Subject: Re: 23 years ago I became an aspirant
Message:
You just want to lay the blame on someone for becoming old, nasty and ugly. Try a face-lift.
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Date: Mon, May 19, 1997 at 16:53:57 (EDT)
Poster: jim
Email:
To: Mili
Subject: Re: 23 years ago I became an aspirant
Message:

You just want to lay the blame on someone for becoming old, nasty and ugly. Try a face-lift.
here's another keeper!
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Date: Sun, May 18, 1997 at 03:19:34 (EDT)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: Everyone
Subject: Guru Maharaj Ji's Dress Clothes
Message:
When is the last time GMJ wore a Krishna costume and a crown? When's the last time he wore that naked-from-the-waist-except-for-a-garland-of-flowers costume. And I don't mean around the house, I mean at a program in front of people, and/or while dancing around the stage or sitting on his throne while the premies sing dance, dance, dance or all night long and scream and yell and really go nuts. The last time I saw him wear those outfits and crowns, and the last time I saw the premies scream and stand on their chairs singing while he danced around wearing them, was at the Guru Puja program in 1982, in (of course) Miami Beach, but I really haven't been to any big premie programs since then so I don't know what happened after that. And does he still wear them at programs in India?
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Date: Tues, May 20, 1997 at 05:52:07 (EDT)
Poster: op
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: Guru Maharaj Ji's Dress Clothes
Message:
I just realized that your question here seems to have been completely ignored.
Around the house? Doubtful.
The last time I know of that M wore the 'mala' was in 1994 (I'm pretty sure of the year, but I might be mistaken, it might have been 95) in India at Hans Jayanti. He did not wear the crown. I don't know when he last wore the crown.
Before that, I don't think he'd worn it since the mid 80s, again in India.
In India and the middle east, he usually wears a silk kurta for programs. In the US, he always wears a suit and tie for intro events, sometimes wears an open button-necked t-shirt for premie or aspirant events.
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Date: Tues, May 20, 1997 at 14:02:36 (EDT)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: op
Subject: Re: Guru Maharaj Ji's Dress Clothes
Message:
Sounds like you travel to India on occasion for programs. How often have you gone there, and do many westerners also do that? Does Maharaj Ji encourage it?
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Date: Tues, May 20, 1997 at 15:02:30 (EDT)
Poster: op
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: Guru Maharaj Ji's Dress Clothes
Message:
Neither encouraged nor discouraged. There is a 'quota' of Westerners who can fit at any given event. I haven't been often, but know several people who go almost every year.
There are some who go to help with translation, security among the Westerners, ushering, etc. A lot of people go from Europe and even South America. For the Australians, it's cheaper and closer than a trip to the US.
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Date: Sat, May 17, 1997 at 22:52:24 (EDT)
Poster: Deena's Son
Email:
To: OP
Subject: My opinion about it all....
Message:
Okay, now it's my turn to voice my opinion. LET THE SHIT HIT THE FAN!
When I am through with you OP, you better pray you have the freaking Maharaji 'Strength' to get through it.
And now I go to my points about all this Bullshit. You ready?
Here it goes!
You are so fucking condescending.
Oh, let me change that. You are so full of Maharaji's love.
Yes, OP, you are so full of it.
I am literally sickened by your stupidity. First of all, telling my mom that you care for her. Bullshit. (Oh, my prayer's have been answered, OP cares for my mom.)
Also, you said that you want my mom to face herself. How then OP, can you really know what my mom is living like today?
My mom is very happy. Actually she is more happy and clear-headed then she was with Pudgy-Shrimpy-Maharaji. (So called freaking Guru.)
You have no fucking idea, do you?; about what it was like to be the son of a premie? It wasn't all lubby-dubby like Maharaji said it would be if you had Knowledge in your life.
Oh, I forgot. Your son and daughter know what it is like to be the children of a premie, eh? In fact, if I'm not mistaken, Maharaji's love drove your daughter to burn the house down and your son to turn to drugs at an early age. (GOD, I LOVE THE IRONY OF IT ALL) So tell me, OP. Your children. Did they just have a little behaviour problem that drove them over the edge? No fucking way. That little 'behaviour' problem had a name. His name was Guru Maharaji.
Actually, being a Christian, I know that I have no right to judge. 'Judge not, lest ye be judged'. So maybe Maharaji has nothing to do with it at all. I don't know.
My mom was a good mom when she was a premie (She's an even better mom now that she is out of the cult).
I never turned to drugs or alcohol when she was a premie. But there was a lot lacking from my life as she followed her little Guru.
What lacked was~ a social life. I never had a social life or family vacations. I remember how hurt I felt when I would ask my parents if I could go to DisneyLand in Florida and they would say no, that they didn't have the money right now. Then a few months later, they would both head off to see Maharaji in Rome, or Los Angeles, etc. But when I turned seventeen and wanted to receive knowledge, they didn't hesitate to take me to Miami to see MJ. Boom, so fast, just like that.
Sure, not all premies' children, are denied a social life, or family vacation, but my parents were very devoted, and loved Maharaji very much, sometimes it felt like, more than me.
I can hear you saying, 'that's not what MJ wanted'. the point is, that's what happened after fifteen years of service satsang and meditation in our family. And if they were so screwed up that they misenterpreted what he wanted, then that means there are other people out there who are doing the same thing.
To me that means that no-one should have that power.
Now, I've given you a break from my 'badgering' you. Now it's time for me to get back to that.
If Maharaji is the 'Lord Of the Universe' as he said he was, then why doesn't the whole Universe bow down to him?
I feel that this whole fucking Maharaji thing is a cult.
When I went to Miami to see him, I was all happy. I thought that when I was eighteen I was going to receive knowledge, and I wanted knowledge so bad because I thought I was missing the boat if I didn't. I thought that Maharaji was THE master.Like the incarnation of Lord Jesus Christ. Boy was I wrong. So I went to the programs, and at the final day of the program I was hyped up and happy. That's when my eyes were opened to how stupid this whole thing is. Everybody was singing songs to Maharaji, trying to get him to dance.
And I looked over at everybody singing 'Rock me Maharaji.....roll me tonight....Rock me Maharaji.....say it's alright....' blah blah blah. More like 'Fuck off Maharaji....Fuck off tonight....Go back to India.....stay there till the end of time.'
And I saw how he looked at everybody. Like they were puppets and like he was saying 'That's it everybody. Good for you. This is what your supposed to be doing.'
NOW, you cannot tell me that this is not a cult. Maharaji being Worshipped as if he were a fucking God or something. People giving him money and his 'diciples' following him everywhere.
My dad loves MJ, just like you do. My mom used to love him too. I love my dad, I love my mom, but guess what..............I really don't give a shit what happens to you. I don't care for you, like you care for my mom.
Someday, maybe my dad (hopefully) will leave this cult and I will be truely happy.
Oh, one more thing before I leave OP. One last thought for you to tear to shreds.............
Do not think for any moment that Jim is the leader of this ex-premie forum. Each person is an individual here.
Goodbye......
from........
(Evil) Son of Deena
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Date: Sat, May 17, 1997 at 23:05:11 (EDT)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: Deena's Son
Subject: Re: My opinion about it all....
Message:
'Do not think for any moment that Jim is the leader of this ex-premie forum. Each person is an individual here.'
THIS IS YOUR LEADER!

QUIT SAYING 'FUCK' SO MUCH AND GIVE UP CHRISTIANITY.

OTHERWISE, YES, YOU HAVE DONE WELL MY SON. YOU MAY EAT TONIGHT.
ALSO, DO AS I SAY AND NOT AS I DO. DO NOT USE BLOCK LETTERS! THEY ARE TOO HARD TO READ! I'M NOT SAYING YOU WERE. I'M JUST SAYING.
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Date: Sun, May 18, 1997 at 00:21:32 (EDT)
Poster: op
Email:
To: Deena's Son
Subject: Re: My opinion about it all....
Message:
Just a few comments:
My mom is very happy. Actually she is more happy and clear-headed then she was with ...
I didn't say she wasn't. I told her to watch where she's going. I told her I'm very glad if she's finding what SHE really wants to do and be.
Oh, I forgot. Your son and daughter know what it is like to be the children of a premie, eh? In fact, if I'm not mistaken, Maharaji's love drove your daughter to burn the house down and your son to turn to drugs at an early age. (GOD, I LOVE THE IRONY OF IT ALL) So tell me, OP. Your
children. Did they just have a little behaviour problem that drove them over the edge? No fucking way. That little 'behaviour' problem had a name. His name was Guru Maharaji.

I think this is called hitting below the belt. I would suggest your mother call you on it. But: if your parents brought you up to believe that having Knowledge absolves you of having any problems in the world, that was a mistake. My daughter did not burn the house down on purpose. She made a mistake with a match. It was a very dry, very hot, fall evening and we had a fire extinguisher (provided by our landlord) that didn't work. My daughter has had to live with the guilt, but fortunately we understand that our lives and our daughter's life are a lot more important than the material things we lost, and she has not suffered. The counselors at her school feel that it's amazing that she's so well adjusted without having had to go through therapy after the fire.
Not all premie children become drug addicts, just as not all drug addicts have premie parents. The whole thing with my son was a hard thing for me to face, since I'd gotten out of drugs a long time ago. Whether there was genetic predisposition there, we don't know. My husband's father was an alcoholic. I had always thought that, since I knew all about drugs, I could avoid them in my family. It wasn't blindness that kept me from seeing what was going on - as my son (now 20) will attest. He was a super manipulator, and he simply became a rebel and avoided all contact with us when he was doing drugs. We took him to counselors etc from the time he was 14, but he conned them, too. When he was 16, we sent him to rehab. He hated us for a few weeks, but in the end we became much closer friends. He still lives at home and he and his sisters have a very close relationship.
I'm not trying to put your family down. Believe me or not.
Yes, there are a lot of people out there who think blind devotion is the key. Most of them are not very happy, as they are not finding out about themselves, but are simply following what they consider a set of necessary rules.
The truth is that if you know the part of you that is connected to God, you can't help but love it more than anything else in the world. But at the same time, knowing it MAKES you love the rest of the world too. Being a Christian, you should know that.
Where did you get the notion that I think Jim is any sort of leader? From Jim?
One more thing. Does your mother know how many curse words you can pack into one net post? I would suggest you learn some manners. Or else don't use the words 'Christian' and 'I' in the same sentence. You've got Jesus turning over in his non-grave.
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Date: Sun, May 18, 1997 at 00:41:06 (EDT)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: op
Subject: Re: My opinion about it all....
Message:
This is your un-leader. OP's absolutely right, young man, the 'Christian' thing has to go.
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Date: Sun, May 18, 1997 at 18:36:55 (EDT)
Poster: Douche
Email:
To: Deena's Son
Subject: Re: My opinion about it all....
Message:
Hey (Evil) Son of Deena, lighten up. You've got it sussed when you say 'this whole fucking Maharaji thing is a cult'. You're FUCKING right.
I don't know why you've got such a down on odl (I haven't been following the discussion) but she and your mom will have a lot of things in common. Odl is a little further back on the path but (like your dad) she'll come out of it eventually - like we all did.
If you are a Christian, then you presumably believe that light will always conquer darkness. Just sit back and watch the drama unfold. It's all far too ridiculous to take seriously.
Douche
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Date: Sat, May 17, 1997 at 21:10:03 (EDT)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: Everyone
Subject: Fun on Harlan's page
Message:
Here's one of the funniest entries I've seen on Harlan's page. Here's a guy who lost his 'beautiful' wife in the process. I haven't seen her. Anyone here seen her? Nope? Sorry, fella. She's not here. Maybe check over there. I heard there was a wfie over there a few years back. Otherwise, hell, I don't really know what to tell ya':
'Comments: Greetings fellow premies!
It was the spring of 1974 when, living is Starkville, MS as a student at
MS State that I received the KNOWLEDGE.

I have since lost any and all contact with all of my guru friends from
Starkville and my beautiful wife, Donna Burch. If anyone knows where
any of these people are, please contact me
Satsang from anyone is welcome as I exist as a flicker of light amidst the darkness'
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Date: Sun, May 18, 1997 at 04:17:41 (EDT)
Poster: Mili
Email:
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Fun on Harlan's page
Message:
This is logical argumentation by Jim at his best. What happened to your wife and kids, Jim? I know. Maraji took them away...
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