Ex-Premie.Org |
Forum I Archive # 7 | |
From: Jun 4, 1997 |
To: Jun 17, 1997 |
Page: 1 Of: 5 |
Date: Tues, Jun 17, 1997 at 17:37:57 (EDT)
Poster: Deena Email: To: Jim and anyone Subject: Atheist or Agnostic Message: Jim seems bored here, and since he is a former premie, that is the Maharaji connection that justifies this post. I read so much stuff that seems so unrelated to M that I thought this once I could get away with it. So Jim, this is for you.... I have a cousin who has been an atheist
for 30 years and recently I made him question calling himself
that. I shared with him what I had learned in a book I'd read by
Charles Templeton. In it, he explains that the 'atheist asserts
that God does not exist, a conclusion as logically untenable as
the contention that he does. Both the theist and the atheist
arrive at their antithetical conclusions not by a process of
logic but by an act of faith.' He goes on to explain further...
He continues on to explain how the agnostic differs from both the theist and aheist. 'To begin, let it be clear that agnosticism is not a halfway house between theism and atheism. The agnostic does not say, as is commonly believed. I do not know whether or not there is a God, he says, I cannot know. There may have been a First Cause to which one might apply the name God, there may even be a Supreme Being from which all existence proceeds, but on the basis of the available evidence the question is beyond resoulution. Is this quibbling? Hardly. If the existence of God is not demonstrable except by faith, and if there is no hard evidence that the universe was created by a First Cause, then agnosticism is the only rational position.' And once more, 'As to whether or not there is a God, one may not simply beg the question by saying, I cannot know. This is an intellectual cop-out, a failure to attempt within the limits of one's ability to seek an answer to what is surely the ultimate question. One may not legitimately say, I cannot know, unless one has sought to know.' This last statement is my favorite. Having dedicated 30 years of my life to that very need to know and having come to the conclusion that I cannot know. Templeton goes on for several pages to discuss further about man's evolution etc. and his reflections on man's religions etc. The book is called Farewell to God and the chapter I quoted from is The God Myth - Is There a God?. He is a former Christian minister who led an evangelical crusade and spoke nightly to crowds of 10,000 to 30,000 in cities across Canada, the United States and Europe. He was best friends with Billy Graham at the time. He experiences the bullshit first hand and draws his own conclusions. Worthwhile reading. Just thought that you could
argue with me since no one else is here to....
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Date: Tues, Jun 17, 1997 at 20:07:35 (EDT)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Deena Subject: Re: Atheist or Agnostic Message: Deena, I'd love to argue with you. Thanks very much. My mother had Charles Templeton call me when I was in the ashram but I can't remember anything he said. (Seriously). Do you see that Templeton's made the same mistake he's trying to avoid? He says that an agnostic acknowledges that he can't know if thereis a God. How does he know THAT? Anyways, I'm
always right. But it's been a long day. What were we talking
about?
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Date: Tues, Jun 17, 1997 at 20:29:48 (EDT)
Poster: Deena Email: To: Jim Subject: Re: Atheist or Agnostic Message: Deena, I'd love to argue with you. Thanks very much. My mother had Charles Templeton call me when I was in the ashram but I can't remember anything he said. (Seriously). Do you see that Templeton's made the same mistake he's trying to avoid? He says that an agnostic acknowledges that he can't know if thereis a God. How does he know THAT? Anyways, I'm always right. But it's been a
long day. What were we talking about? Yes, I AM always right....do you think it's
a Jewish thing?
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Date: Tues, Jun 17, 1997 at 22:03:47 (EDT)
Poster: Deena Email: To: Jim Subject: Re: Atheist or Agnostic Message: Deena, I'd love to argue with you. Thanks very much. My mother had Charles Templeton call me when I was in the ashram but I can't remember anything he said. (Seriously). Do you see that Templeton's made the same mistake he's trying to avoid? He says that an agnostic acknowledges that he can't know if thereis a God. How does he know THAT? Anyways, I'm always right. But it's been a
long day. What were we talking about? Yes, I AM always right....do you think it's
a Jewish thing? |
Date: Tues, Jun 17, 1997 at 13:03:52 (EDT)
Poster: Son of Deena Email: To: irene and Everyone Subject: A scary Story Message: It literally scares me to think that this man, Mahraji, is still around, to spread all his bullshit and lies. And that's the truth. On the outside he can seem like the greatest person, but when you really dig deep to find out who he really is, you find lies, deception, the leader of a cult. irene------------------------ How can you be so rude
to my mother about her feelings? Her opinions are her opinions.
Dah, she has anger. Gee I wonder why? Oh, could it possibly be
that for 16 years she followed someone who she thought was a
perfect master, when really, she figured out now, that he is
anything but perfect. |
Date: Tues, Jun 17, 1997 at 11:39:46 (EDT)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Everyone Subject: OP, would he take me back? Message: This is getting boring. I've had it with my mind. Mili, are you listening? I've had it. It's time to go home! Ex's don't have festivals, plaques, videos, spoons, nothing. What are THEY going to celebrate in 25 years? Maharaji at least has the Millenium. OP, what would it take for me to win Maharaji's trust again. He's got mine. Like I say, I'm jsut tired of all this shit. But waht would I have to do? Do you think if I jsut promised to can the fucking questions, for God's sake. Yes, I admit, Maharaji never really said anything but go inside, that's where it's at('two turntables and a microphone!'). Everything else can best be chalked up to others' mistakes or lila or just general cosmic mystery. Look, I'll sign anything. I love him dearly. Remove my name. Please Lord,
if you're reading this, I can give you money. What do you say?
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Date: Tues, Jun 17, 1997 at 18:01:39 (EDT)
Poster: Lord Email: PCH To: Jim Subject: Re: OP, would he take me back? Message: This is getting boring. I've had it with my mind. Mili, are you listening? I've had it. It's time to go home! Ex's don't have festivals, plaques, videos, spoons, nothing. What are THEY going to celebrate in 25 years? Maharaji at least has the Millenium. OP, what would it take for me to win Maharaji's trust again. He's got mine. Like I say, I'm jsut tired of all this shit. But waht would I have to do? Do you think if I jsut promised to can the fucking questions, for God's sake. Yes, I admit, Maharaji never really said anything but go inside, that's where it's at('two turntables and a microphone!'). Everything else can best be chalked up to others' mistakes or lila or just general cosmic mystery. Look, I'll sign anything. I love him dearly. Remove my name. Please Lord, if you're reading this, I can give you
money. What do you say? |
Date: Tues, Jun 17, 1997 at 18:46:52 (EDT)
Poster: Chris Email: To: Jim Subject: Re: OP, would he take me back? Message: If you can quiet your mind for an hour, is there still anything left inside of you? You and this
planet traveling in the middle of the Universe are most certainly
cosmic mysteries.
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Date: Tues, Jun 17, 1997 at 05:33:15 (EDT)
Poster: a letter to Paul Email: scotts world To: whats my name? Subject: from the computerans Message: Dear Paul, Since you would like to tell us about a particular messiah, maybe I could help you. You might want to know that even though you have access to scriptures from 150ad, you need to know your favorite messiahs name. I was going around recently saying jesus real name was yashua but even that was wrong. His mom (and celibate?) father called him Yeshua. since you have been wrong about his name all these years, maybe you are poorly informed about other things that you are sure you know. I thought that since I knew the lord (it's hard to type that) anyway, if I think someone is the lord, then it is easy and automatic that everything that comes down the pipe from that direction is automatically true. Does it matter if
he came from a virgin? or an apple tree? That doesn't mean jesus(yeshua) didnt have
something to |
Date: Tues, Jun 17, 1997 at 05:59:59 (EDT)
Poster: Brian Email: To: a letter to Paul Subject: Re: from the computerans Message: I've heard of the Virgin Birth, of course. But what's this 'Maharaji's 64 Powers'? Musta taken a lot longer to learn than the 14 verses of Arti, I bet ya. Maybe I was told about them once and, detecting heavy memorization ahead, shied instinctively away. One of the problems I had with the whole DLM thang is that we didn't get cool scriptures to tote around like the Jesus Freaks that used to hover around the public programs. No leather binding, red lettering, cool pictures of Eden, or Mary and the gang. It was just word of mouth, and all of the memorization required attendance. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 17, 1997 at 10:56:13 (EDT)
Poster: Jim Email: To: a letter to Paul Subject: Re: from the computerans Message: Dear Paul, Since you would like to tell us about a particular messiah, maybe I could help you. You might want to know that even though you have access to scriptures from 150ad, you need to know your favorite messiahs name. I was going around recently saying jesus real name was yashua but even that was wrong. His mom (and celibate?) father called him Yeshua. since you have been wrong about his name all these years, maybe you are poorly informed about other things that you are sure you know. I thought that since I knew the lord (it's hard to type that) anyway, if I think someone is the lord, then it is easy and automatic that everything that comes down the pipe from that direction is automatically true. Does it matter if
he came from a virgin? or an apple tree? That doesn't mean jesus(yeshua) didnt have
something to
Your points are good and your tongue is true.
Years hence, when they have artificial intelligence, it may do no
better. But, alas, dear brother, when you question Paul, while
you ask him much, you leave one assumption too grand for even the
devil himself. You question much but leave in tact the simple
claim that Yeshua said this or that. Why argue so? Were you
rushed? |
Date: Tues, Jun 17, 1997 at 05:08:00 (EDT)
Poster: Paul Email: oily2000@aol.com To: Every one Subject: Back to e-mail Message: Hi I ve come back to the office - after my few days away - and I do seem to have stirred things up - sorry I never intended to start an argument. For a number of reasons I ll have to retreat to e-mail. 1) My home PC is a never ending project - I started it a number of years ago - and now the oldest part is the motherboard - it creaks along with a 386 - I ll be changing that over the summer. Link that with BT costs and as I m a Yorkshireman I go for one of the cheapest on-line providers - AOL here - but I have to stick to 5 hours to keep it cheap [that keeps me to little more than e-mail]. 2) As I m the IT person for the office I ve been using the work PC for the forum - but now I find on my return that I have a lot of work to do over the next few months - this will include early mornings, and late nights. And not a lot of time to ponder. 3) E-mail gives more breathing space - and emotions can settle before a reply is sent. I ll still be happy to discuss issues with whoever - and my e-mail address of 'oily2000@aol.com' will reach me at home. Jim - If you want to discuss with me I recommend you take a look at the book 'Evidence that demands a verdict' by Josh MacDowell - a lawyer who presents his case well. This offer is open to anyone else too. I ve really come to appreciate you guys [all of you] - in the short time I ve been here you ve come to mean a lot to me. I hope that the pressures of work will die down after a time - and I ll be able to come back and be a regular in the forum again. Thankyou to all of you. Paul
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Date: Tues, Jun 17, 1997 at 10:46:18 (EDT)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Paul Subject: Re: Back to e-mail Message: Paul, what's the book about? If it's along the lines of 'this creation is far too complex and wonderful to have evolved on its own' I'm pretty familiar with the viewpoint and have read a fair bit of science stuff that answers that question pretty handily. Right now, in fact, 'Climbing Mount Improbable', Dawkins' new book, does jsut that. But, what's the book about? Paul? Paul? Paul, you there? Paul? Where'd he go? He was here a minute ago. Paul? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jun 16, 1997 at 23:41:05 (EDT)
Poster: Gunther's Mom Email: declined To: Everyone Subject: Greetings Message: Hi all, I have been happily living my life but I was in reading the latest and realized I had not said hi in awhile. I have nothing profound to say just hi. Oh yes, and Jim I read your books and enjoyed them. I liked Moral Animal more than Guru papers though. Just more entertaining. I want to try the chat room but it says my browser is not Java enabled. Shouldn't it be since I am using Netscape? Just wanted you all to know Gunther and I are fine and have not fallen into the clutches of any charlatans in more than a decade! I liked Jim's Father's Day poem too. And JW have agreed with all you have to say. And hi Deena say hi to your son from me and Gunther. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 17, 1997 at 10:41:35 (EDT)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Gunther's Mom Subject: Re: Greetings Message: Hi. :) Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jun 16, 1997 at 23:27:31 (EDT)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Everyone Subject: The sobering effect of bad poetry Message: It being as dull as it is here these days, and feeling somewhat responsible for that by publishing bad poetry and chasing off friendly Christians, I offer the following: PROVO, Utah (AP) -- A religious cult leader was sentenced Monday to five years in prison on rape charges for marrying off his 13-year-old daughter. John Perry Chaney, leader of ``The House of Chaney,'' was convicted in April of three felony rape charges for performing a marriage ceremony in 1993 between his 13-year-old daughter and a 48-year-old friend. Prosecutors say Chaney performed the marriage so the two would have sex, which they argued was aiding and abetting the rape of a child. The girl testified against her father; she now lives with her grandparents. Judge Lynn W. Davis said he had no choice but to sentence Chaney to the minimum, mandatory sentence of five years to life in prison because Chaney didn't cooperate for a presentence evaluation. Davis also ordered him to pay a $10,000 fine and $17,000 in restitution for his daughter's therapy. Chaney lashed out at the judge, calling him unfit, a crook, and a criminal and accused him of treason. Chaney is a traveling missionary who opposes government institutions. He renewed his claim that the wedding was a religious act ordered by God and that the state has no jurisdiction in the establishment of religion. The 40-year-old Chaney himself married a 14-year-old girl and fathered a child with the girl in Michigan last year.' Not
relevant, just a mood-setter.
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Date: Mon, Jun 16, 1997 at 23:31:39 (EDT)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Jim Subject: Re: The sobering effect of bad poetry Message: But wait! I see a pattern: 'A hippie guru who gained a following among the rich and influential in the 1970s before he beat his girlfriend to death and stuffed the body in a steamer trunk has been captured in France after 16 years on the run.' The rest of this related
irrelevancy can be found on the AP newswire. So where is
everyone? Hey, did you guys here the one about Maharaji in Nigeria?
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Date: Sun, Jun 15, 1997 at 18:48:15 (EDT)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Everyone Subject: Happy Father's Day Lord Message: I count the hours, the days, the weeks, The years and decades Forward or past? Until we're united Again? -- Fat chance! I'd rather go fishing Or get my teeth cleaned By a dental hygenist Who's borderline mean And charges me more Than I think I should pay Cause if that's how I'm gored It's still done in a day Than sit at your feet And gaze into your eyes And drift in the bath Of your Sweet, nothing lies I'd rather be stuck In a hot traffic jam Than shit out of luck In your warehouse ashram (Who cares if this poem Don't perfectly scan I'm sure it's unfolding Just right in your perfect master plan mistakes and all, wouldn't you say? Oh, Maharaji, thank you for showing me the real me after all these years, and I was going to die without you, please Lord, give me the strength to love you in the style you've grown accustomed to just in case your father really is watching somewhere, we'd hate to disappoint, one religion's as good as the next anyway and, while we're at it, how 'bout them Bulls? What'd I tell you? Unstoppable! Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jun 16, 1997 at 16:38:48 (EDT)
Poster: Deena Email: To: Jim Subject: Re: Happy Father's Day Lord Message: I love ' Than sit at your feet And gaze into your eyes And drift in the bath of your Sweet, nothing lies'... just love it,,, Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 17, 1997 at 04:53:46 (EDT)
Poster: tom Email: To: Deena Subject: Re: Happy Father's Day Lord Message: and ---it's done in a day--- yes. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jun 15, 1997 at 15:56:22 (EDT)
Poster: ron smith Email: rsmith1121@aol.com To: Everyone Subject: i love maharaj ji Message: please remove my name from the list of former premies. i dearly love maharaj ji. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jun 15, 1997 at 17:23:05 (EDT)
Poster: Jim Email: To: ron smith Subject: Re: i love maharaj ji Message: please remove my name from yhe list of former premies . i dearly love maharaj ji. Ron, How in the world did this happen? If Maharaji saw your name on the list do you think he'd know that it was all a mistake? That, because of your internal/eternal connection to him, your fibreoptic conduit of pure, unadulterated high-test guru love, there's really no confusion at all? Or should we perhaps back it up a bit? Do you think Maharaji, whom you so dearly love, even knows who the fuck you are? Do you think he could pick you out of a police lineup? Say he was driving home one night, up PCH and, sorry to say, you're lying roadside amidst an awful car accident. Think Maharaji'd recognize you as one of his own? As he drove past, maybe he got a good look, and he's going back up to the res -- say it's a Sunday and Maharaji's getting back from sneaking into the Sunday Night Hare Krishan feast, where he goes from time to time not just 'cause it's free but because nobody makes Gulag Jammin's like those Krishnas -- but now he's driving home. Sees you lying comatose and keeps on going. (Of course you're supposed to. He's not ChiP's after all.) So he gets home, watches a little t.v. Meanwhile his dearly beloved premie's DYING down the hill and a few miles back. Think he'd know? Let's say he doesn't.
Let's say you die anyways (hey, we all have to die sometime is
what they tell me, unless you know different. Mind you, I
haven't had a knowledge session for years, so don't take my word
for nothing.) But, if you DID die -- just humour me here a bit
-- would Maharaji ever find out? What if you'd been a steady
contributor for years? Would his accountant ever know? Or would
you just kind of pass along, 'dear love' and all, off to wherever
dead devotees go. Would he be there waiting for you? You sure?
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Date: Sun, Jun 15, 1997 at 18:43:48 (EDT)
Poster: Brian Email: To: Jim Subject: Re: i love maharaj ji Message: Hey! How come he's on some list? Am I on it? Do we get free subscriptions to 'Well... It Was Divine' magazine? Please move my name to the top of the list. I dearly love free magazines. Thankyou. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jun 16, 1997 at 00:00:09 (EDT)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Brian Subject: Re: i love maharaj ji Message: Hey! How come he's on some list? Am I on it? Do we get free subscriptions to 'Well... It Was Divine' magazine? Please move my name to the top of the list. I dearly love free magazines. Thankyou. Brian, he's talking about the ex-premie phone list. But you're absolutely right about magazines. I, too, dearly love free ones. In fact, although manly enough in other respects, I simply swoon for free magazines. Every Monday, on my way to court, I pick up the Watchtower. Have you ever sat down and actually read one, instead of looking at the fascinating pictures? We're not talking Awake, with its entirely different editorial content. The Watchtower is certainly worth every bit as much as And it Is Divine was. Let's not be cultocentric, shall we? Sure, And It is Divine has the worst name of any publication EVER, but the Watchtower has some terrible copy. More later, gotta go. Mum just came in the room! Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jun 16, 1997 at 16:43:47 (EDT)
Poster: Deena to Ron Smith Email: To: Ron Smith Subject: Re: i love maharaj ji Message: I wanted to know, if you are still around, just what happened that made you put yourself on the former premie list and then want to stroked off? Just curious, that's all. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jun 15, 1997 at 10:11:05 (EDT)
Poster: Bill Cooper Email: To: Everyone Subject: Aurevior Message: Just wanted to let you all know that I wont be looking in here for the next couple of months. One of the benfits of teaching...long holidays.Thought you might think I'd seen the light and split the scene. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jun 15, 1997 at 12:09:13 (EDT)
Poster: Brian Email: To: Bill Cooper Subject: Re: Aurevior Message: Just wanted to let you all know that I wont be looking in here for the next couple of months. One of the benfits of teaching...long holidays.Thought you might think I'd seen the light and split the scene. Enjoy your summer, Mr. Cooper. I've enjoyed your posts. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jun 15, 1997 at 17:26:30 (EDT)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Bill Cooper Subject: Re: Aurevior Message: Just wanted to let you all know that I wont be looking in here for the next couple of months. One of the benfits of teaching...long holidays.Thought you might think I'd seen the light and split the scene. Hey Bill, is that true? Well, you have to log on from somewhere after the New Yorker article, don't you? I read Kurt Anderson's column this week in the New Yorker and note that he's perfectly capable of rich sardonicism (?). Hopefully he doesn't spare guruji too much on account of his siblings. Anyways, Bill, have a good summer. Never leave room for God
in your mind and don't delay if you can help it. Something like
that. Take care.
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Date: Mon, Jun 16, 1997 at 09:45:53 (EDT)
Poster: Scott Email: To: Bill Cooper Subject: Re: Aurevior Message: Hey Bill, - Will miss your insights over the next few months. Maybe by the time you get back, you'll find this page has changed a bit. Always leave room for "Heart" in your mind. - Scott
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Date: Mon, Jun 16, 1997 at 12:11:58 (EDT)
Poster: Anon Email: To: Bill Subject: Re: Aurevior Message: Have fun Bill! I too enjoyed your contributions. I have been to Singapore myself, so I have pictured you there sweatily gazing at your computer screen! Take care and keep in touch! Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jun 16, 1997 at 16:41:11 (EDT)
Poster: Deena Email: To: Bill Cooper Subject: Re: Aurevior Message: You're probably well on your way, but I wanted to join in on wishing you well. Thanks for being here and hope to read you again. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jun 16, 1997 at 21:01:09 (EDT)
Poster: tom Email: To: Bill Cooper Subject: Re: Aurevior Message: why dont you pick a date and time that you will re enter the web site and we will all be up for your return. If Jims mom will let him and if douce's baby will let him. maybe even Ron Smith will be back by then. have fun! you know we will. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jun 14, 1997 at 20:32:30 (EDT)
Poster: Bill Cooper Email: To: Everyone Subject: REAL PREMIE...TIMES UP Message: This is the second time I've asked *A REAL PREMIE* (caps lock?). you said on Thursday that you would go to Maharajis residence and share satsang with him. So share us the company of truth and tell us what really happened. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jun 14, 1997 at 20:49:00 (EDT)
Poster: Brian Email: To: Bill Cooper Subject: Re: REAL PREMIE...TIMES UP Message: This is the second time I've asked *A REAL PREMIE* (caps lock?). you said on Thursday that you would go to Maharajis residence and share satsang with him. So share us the company of truth and tell us what really happened. Now, now... Mr. Cooper... REAL PREMIE didn't have a clue, so why would he/she have the bail money? The wheels of justice move almost as slowly as a premie's thought train through a satsang hall, so you're gonna have to be patient :) Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jun 14, 1997 at 16:02:31 (EDT)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Everyone Subject: Perfect Master's unconscious Message: I was breezing through the Guru Papers again and came accross something I'd never really thought of. The authors discuss the unconscious, saying first that it's commonplace in western thought and society to believe there is such a thing. We differ like crazy in our beliefs about it but pretty well agree that there is such a thing. For example, they point out, we universally look back to the past, from time to time, and realize now what moved us then without our knowledge. That's becuase we do have unconscious motivations and tendencies. Okay, that's all well and good for us regualr folk, imperfect, confused but hopefully learning shit as we go along. But what about someone who sets himself forth as 'enlightened'? What about a 'Satguru" or 'Perfect Master'? What about the Lord? Does Maharaji have an unconscious? Can he ever learn from something he did a few years ago? Not if he's perfect. But, if you say that he CAN learn from his past, and unravel his own motivations and fears, he doesn't understand them fully in the present. Now how in the world can you put your unconditional trust in someone who doesn't understand his own unconscious landscape? That's the general idea. And I
remember how necessary it was to believe that, unlike human
beings, Maharaji really did have this timeless, egoless, vision
of purity. But, like I say -- well, like the Guru Papers guys
say -- how foolhardy to ignore the guru's own unconscious or
assume he has none. Yes, we were FOOLS!
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Date: Sat, Jun 14, 1997 at 07:14:41 (EDT)
Poster: Bill Cooper Email: To: Everyone Subject: imagine Message: And as Maharaji leads Jim Gould into his mansion Jim says, Hey Prem where do you get your servants from? They wait upon you like you're almost a god.* (nervous laughter) * Can I get you a brandy ?* *Sure but perhaps just a small one. I can't take it like you. What line of work are you in Prem one of my aides said that you were a Guru* *No Jim I do humanitarian work* *Sure pays well Prem. You've got a fine collection of cars out there* *Its like this Jim I take the dregs of society and put them on a program that gives them hope. Everything you see around you has come from the free donations of students who have just been grateful for being given another chance.* *Wow, you're a hell of a guy Prem* *Another brandy Jim* Was one of Maharajis commandments* never give a
sucker an even break*. I mean 99.999% recurring of the planet
wouldn't give him a second look never mind consider him Lord of
the Universe. We were suckers for love. I wonder if that guy went
to the residence to see M. I remember standing by the roadside
for hours to see Maharaji pass in a limo and when he came he had
tinted windows so there wasn't even anything to see but I felt
that by standing there in some small way I was connected with my
Lord.
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Date: Sat, Jun 14, 1997 at 07:26:58 (EDT)
Poster: miranda Email: To: Bill Cooper Subject: Re: imagine Message: why dont't all you people stop being so negative and get a life twenty or so years down the track? no one made you join anything you did it all yourself. Think about those raised in the Catholic Church and institutions like that who had no say in their indoctrination. Look at what that Deena person wrote about wishing Maharji's death and think about where this sick page is leading you? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jun 14, 1997 at 08:17:50 (EDT)
Poster: Bill Cooper Email: To: miranda Subject: Re: imagine Message: Actually Miranda its one of the best things I've stumbled across in the last few years. I never realised how much shit I had stored up untill I came into the presence of others who can share their experiences. If you dont understand, fair enough, what are you doing here? No one is forcing you to read this stuff Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jun 14, 1997 at 08:29:14 (EDT)
Poster: Brian Email: To: miranda Subject: Re: imagine Message: why dont't all you people stop being so negative and get a life twenty or so years down the track? no one made you join anything you did it all yourself. Think about those raised in the Catholic Church and institutions like that who had no say in their indoctrination. Look at what that Deena person wrote about wishing Maharji's death and think about where this sick page is leading you?
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Date: Sat, Jun 14, 1997 at 12:45:28 (EDT)
Poster: Jim Email: To: miranda Subject: Re: imagine Message: why dont't all you people stop being so negative and get a life twenty or so years down the track? no one made you join anything you did it all yourself. Think about those raised in the Catholic Church and institutions like that who had no say in their indoctrination. Look at what that Deena person wrote about wishing Maharji's death and think about where this sick page is leading you?
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Date: Fri, Jun 13, 1997 at 12:12:35 (EDT)
Poster: Deena Email: To: Everyone Subject: Maharaji still makes me cry Message: Maybe this is something someone like op can't understands and interprets it as shit being thrown, but when I was a premie, only 4 months ago, I would find myself brought to tears when I listened to a devotional love song or saw certain videos that showed M in an intimate or personal light. I would be overwhelmed with gratitude and felt so humble to recognize that the Perfect Master was here, alive, on this planet at the same time as I am alive too. I find tears fall now too. But now it is when I read an ex-premie's post or e-mail and they share their pain and stories of betrayal. I am moved and I curse Maharaji for continuing to lead a system where so much abuse has taken place and no doubt still takes place. I can't deny that I wish he'd have a few drinks, get into one of his many fancy cars and speed away to meet his end. I realize that his death would be a relief. The fact that someone else would spring up to be the next Perfect Master wouldn't concern me because I have a feeling that whoever that is, they wouldn't be as successful in deluding the masses due to the bad PR that would follow M's demise. I also doubt my husband would bother to check it all out. Maybe he would continue to love a memory, or over time, maybe not. But dead, Maharaji no longer continues to con people. The pain he's caused in people's lives cannot be changed by his death, but their are some who would enjoy the party of his wake....and what a party that would be. Don't blame yourself JW, but your e-mail moved me to tears and made me realize one more time how disgusting his very existence is to me still. No one should get away with ruining lives the way he has. Sure, he is human and victim of the system his father set him up in, but he could stop and admit the harm he's caused. I don't care if he has brought joy to thousands of people, his Guru trip has destroyed some and left life long scars for others and that is unforgivable. There are probably tons of stories that have yet to be told. My own husband buries his own nervous breakdown in the ashram and chooses to rationalize the harm he witnessed. I haven't talked to him about that in weeks. I have chosen to love him and stand by him because I see that he doesn't practise as regularly or watch videos as often when he isn't confronted. If he has doubts, living with me will allow them to grow. I know
op, Chris and other premies hate what I write. Maybe even some of
the ex-premies don't like when I talk about M's death. But that
is how I feel. I will not weep. Not even for his children. I
could never have felt that way a few months ago. When I first
left M I felt no anamousity. I don't feel it now all the time. I
know posts of me wallowing in sinfull wishes of M's timely death
will cloud the purpose of this forum. I am being sincere and
sharing how I feel. I don't care who does or doesn't like it.
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Date: Fri, Jun 13, 1997 at 16:32:07 (EDT)
Poster: Michael Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net To: Deena Subject: Re: Maharaji still makes me cry Message: I appreciate your sharing the feelings of anger, betrayal and rage with those of us who read this page; I feel that you are being very honest and very real. Your reactions are a normal reaction to the psychological and spiritual abuse many of us experienced as premies. While I don't really feel comfortable with your 'wish' of M's death, I also understand why you feel this way. Thank you for being so honest. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jun 14, 1997 at 07:08:00 (EDT)
Poster: irene Email: To: Deena Subject: Re: Maharaji still makes me cry Message: i'm sorry but i have never read a sicker piece of writing. To wish some one's death means that you have severe problems that really need to be dealt with by someone professional. If your time with Maharji was so traumatic why do all you ex-premmies continue to wallow and whinge instead of moving forward. I have never encountered a more self-centred bunch of neurotic people in my life . I turned to this site throught curiosity and am shocked that twenty years later for some of you that you can still wallow in your experiences. There is a difference between expressing concern and alerting others to possible dangers and writing the sort of sick things such as wishing someone's death. Please Deena learn to forgive and get counselling you have hate in your heart. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jun 14, 1997 at 07:08:06 (EDT)
Poster: irene Email: To: Deena Subject: Re: Maharaji still makes me cry Message: i'm sorry but i have never read a sicker piece of writing. To wish some one's death means that you have severe problems that really need to be dealt with by someone professional. If your time with Maharji was so traumatic why do all you ex-premmies continue to wallow and whinge instead of moving forward. I have never encountered a more self-centred bunch of neurotic people in my life . I turned to this site throught curiosity and am shocked that twenty years later for some of you that you can still wallow in your experiences. There is a difference between expressing concern and alerting others to possible dangers and writing the sort of sick things such as wishing someone's death. Please Deena learn to forgive and get counselling you have hate in your heart. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jun 14, 1997 at 08:42:01 (EDT)
Poster: Brian Email: To: irene Subject: Re: Maharaji still makes me cry Message: i'm sorry but i have never read a sicker piece of writing. To wish some one's death means that you have severe problems that really need to be dealt with by someone professional. If your time with Maharji was so traumatic why do all you ex-premmies continue to wallow and whinge instead of moving forward. I have never encountered a more self-centred bunch of neurotic people in my life . I turned to this site throught curiosity and am shocked that twenty years later for some of you that you can still wallow in your experiences. There is a difference between expressing concern and alerting others to possible dangers and writing the sort of sick things such as wishing someone's death. Please Deena learn to forgive and get counselling you have hate in your heart. Irene, honey, you ought to check out the archives where Deena has told her story before you offer to share your insights into her state of mind. She doesn't post here for the sake of people who are just 'curious', but for herself. She does have a lot of anger in her heart, and may be a bit neurotic in your eyes, but then she's got an even MORE neurotic current-premie in her household that she has more invested in than would allow her to responsibly 'move forward'. You apparantly don't know that. As for alerting people to the
dangers of this particular cult, what do you mean? That people
can be so damaged by it that they have trouble 'moving forward',
perhaps? Your keen insights into the dangers of structuring a
total life around a fraud would be much appreciated by those of
us still wallowing. Do share.
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Date: Sat, Jun 14, 1997 at 09:01:20 (EDT)
Poster: Deena Email: To: irene Subject: Re: Maharaji still makes me cry Message: i'm sorry but i have never read a sicker piece of writing. To wish some one's death means that you have severe problems that really need to be dealt with by someone professional. If your time with Maharji was so traumatic why do all you ex-premmies continue to wallow and whinge instead of moving forward. I have never encountered a more self-centred bunch of neurotic people in my life . I turned to this site throught curiosity and am shocked that twenty years later for some of you that you can still wallow in your experiences. There is a difference between expressing concern and alerting others to possible dangers and writing the sort of sick things such as wishing someone's death. Please Deena learn to forgive and get counselling you have hate in your heart. Thank you so much. Your love, compassion and understanding can only be inspired by Maharaji himself. I am humbled and grateful. I don't know how I survived without your wisdom to this point. Thank you so very, very much. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jun 14, 1997 at 12:49:17 (EDT)
Poster: Jim Email: To: irene Subject: Re: Maharaji still makes me cry Message: i'm sorry but i have never read a sicker piece of writing. To wish some one's death means that you have severe problems that really need to be dealt with by someone professional. If your time with Maharji was so traumatic why do all you ex-premmies continue to wallow and whinge instead of moving forward. I have never encountered a more self-centred bunch of neurotic people in my life . I turned to this site throught curiosity and am shocked that twenty years later for some of you that you can still wallow in your experiences. There is a difference between expressing concern and alerting others to possible dangers and writing the sort of sick things such as wishing someone's death. Please Deena learn to forgive and get counselling you have hate in your heart. Irene, too bad we didn't have you with us a little earlier. I agree, there IS a difference. How would you 'alert others to the possible dangers' of following Maharaji? Indeed, what dangers? What possibility? What, in aprticular, do you think Deena should forgive? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jun 14, 1997 at 19:41:47 (EDT)
Poster: cumon Email: hard to believe@??????? To: Deena Subject: Re: Maharaji still makes me cry Message: i'm sorry but i have never read a sicker piece of writing. To wish some one's death means that you have severe problems that really need to be dealt with by someone professional. If your time with Maharji was so traumatic why do all you ex-premmies continue to wallow and whinge instead of moving forward. I have never encountered a more self-centred bunch of neurotic people in my life . I turned to this site throught curiosity and am shocked that twenty years later for some of you that you can still wallow in your experiences. There is a difference between expressing concern and alerting others to possible dangers and writing the sort of sick things such as wishing someone's death. Please Deena learn to forgive and get counselling you have hate in your heart. Thank you so much. Your love, compassion and understanding can only be inspired by Maharaji himself. I am humbled and grateful. I don't know how I survived without your wisdom to this point. Thank you so very, very much. HE didn't really wear that fake mushtache,did he?Say it isn't so!!!!HE,HAW aught to get together with pat boone and make a movie,the power of fakes! Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jun 14, 1997 at 19:49:35 (EDT)
Poster: Scott Email: To: cumon Subject: Re: Maharaji still makes me cry Message: Hey, Cumin, Would you be interested in trying out the new chat room? I noticed you were on.. - Scott Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jun 14, 1997 at 21:12:48 (EDT)
Poster: the tom Email: To: Deena Subject: Re: Maharaji still makes me cry Message: well, I am glad you are continueing to post. we that know you, understand you. I know some of your posts are directly aimed to help and you know its appreciated. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jun 13, 1997 at 02:56:37 (EDT)
Poster: Dr.Light Email: been had@the feet To: Everyone Subject: clits and clicks Message: These premie clicks have always disturbed me.The ashram premie click,resented the resident premie click,thought the general premies were beneath them,hollyer than thou.The music maker premie click.The rich pemie click.The security premie click. on and on,really strange for a group that had found THE LORD,aye.the crazy prmie click.the wild premie click.the lets go up to the gate and cry premie click.and security click had files on the crazy premies.anybody got any favorite clicks,which ones were you in?I kinda worked my way through all of them. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jun 13, 1997 at 10:00:59 (EDT)
Poster: Brian Email: To: Dr.Light Subject: Re: clits and clicks Message: Cliques are part of how people interact. Devotees may to pretend differently, but they're still bound by the rules we all have to play by. As for clits... It's an
interesting image. Not relevant that I can see, but still an
interesting image.
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Date: Fri, Jun 13, 1997 at 11:42:37 (EDT)
Poster: Deena Email: To: Dr Light Subject: Re: clits and clicks Message: I agree that there are all these levels of snobbery. I especially experienced it backstage...unbelievable what bullshit goes on in the name of the Perfect Master. I was your silent clean the toliet blissed out the whole time type.. Then along would come the head honchos who would whip us lowly ones into perfection. I always took other premie's arrogance as a way to go deeper and always experienced what I thought was humility. When I assisted the higher ups backstage I witnessed how service premies tremble and fall apart during the pressure of M's demands for perfection. Of course I wanted to get closer service it, never occured to me that the whole set up was very unnatural and unhealthy. The high was worth any price. After all, this was someone I felt was holy and deserving of the utmost respect. I would have done anything. But this is all in the last 10 year, I don't know if I would have survived the 70's and early 80's. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jun 13, 1997 at 12:57:07 (EDT)
Poster: tha wet clit Email: nector from the gods To: Brian Subject: Re: clits and clicks Message: Cliques are part of how people interact. Devotees may to pretend differently, but they're still bound by the rules we all have to play by. As for clits... It's an interesting image.
Not relevant that I can see, but still an interesting image.
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Date: Fri, Jun 13, 1997 at 13:15:40 (EDT)
Poster: Jim Email: To: tha wet clit Subject: Re: clits and clicks Message: Fuck, why was I born a Canadian? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jun 13, 1997 at 13:22:13 (EDT)
Poster: eggs and ham Email: what hit me@net.com To: Dr.Light Subject: Re: clits and clicks Message: These premie clicks have always disturbed me.The ashram premie click,resented the resident premie click,thought the general premies were beneath them,hollyer than thou.The music maker premie click.The rich pemie click.The security premie click. on and on,really strange for a group that had found THE LORD,aye.the crazy prmie click.the wild premie click.the lets go up to the gate and cry premie click.and security click had files on the crazy premies.anybody got any favorite clicks,which ones were you in?I kinda worked my way through all of them. It'ts absolutly amazing how this premie web intangled every part of our lives,it's taken me years to get out enough to see what was really happening,the very first week that i was in Denver,1974,the first former premie i ever met told me,get out of this thing,M,and dlm,will steal your soul,your life,your time,your money,youth,your family,everything,and you will be left with nothing.She was a casher at rainbow grogery,i forget her name,and wonder if she's around to be contacted,bet she has some more to say,we should incourage all former fools to speak up,her husbsnd i remember was killed in the car accident on the way to play holly music somewhere....all the premies were killed i believe...she was beautiful,i wish i had listened,i was like these other fools,could not see the forest for the trees.....i thought poor thing ,in her mind,oh,this yougert is scruptious dude!her friend also tried spreading the word,Mark,also told me,m is just a little spoiled brat,cares only about himself...don't fall for all this crap,20 years later i'm going,hey, what hit me? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jun 13, 1997 at 13:29:33 (EDT)
Poster: Jim Email: To: eggs and ham Subject: Re: clits and clicks Message: I'm glad to hear your voice and experience, eggs and ham. By the way, what kind of name is that? I'ts not Jewish, obviously. I guess it's not vegetarian, either. Dutch? German? Just curious. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jun 13, 1997 at 20:18:10 (EDT)
Poster: eggs and ham Email: cyberth@aol.com To: Jim Subject: Re: clits and clicks Message: I'm glad to hear your voice and experience, eggs and ham. By the way, what kind of name is that? I'ts not Jewish, obviously. I guess it's not vegetarian, either. Dutch? German? Just curious. one night on Jay Leno ,Tracy Lords,was on there ,and she recited the whole book,eggs and ham,and i thought it was ever so cool,for some odd reason.i remember the story m used to tell about the 1 devotie was in the ashram,meditating,or trying to, and all he could think about waswas being in a whre house scewing a whore,devotee #2is in the whore house scewing the whore and he's in meditation...which one goes to heaven? That's why i hang out with as many whores as possible!funny though that i always remember all those stories 20 years later. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jun 14, 1997 at 13:03:01 (EDT)
Poster: Jim Email: To: eggs and ham Subject: Re: clits and clicks Message: According to the premie apologists your memory is a sypmtom of sick wallowing and an empty life. Why remember anything outside the program of the official 25th anniversary events? See what happens when we stray off the path? Maharji has put together a perfectly fine video memory for us to adopt but YOU, you have to have your own! What's the point in having a Big Brother, Mr. Winston, if you're not going to let him think for you? Thinkie, thinkie not patriotic. Like Deena, you need help. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jun 12, 1997 at 21:45:18 (EDT)
Poster: Brian Email: To: Scott Subject: Chat Suggestion Message: Is there anyway that the status of the chat room can be shown on the index page when it loads? It would be nice to open this page and have it say '2 people in Chat', with a link to the page. Just a thought. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jun 12, 1997 at 23:09:13 (EDT)
Poster: Bill Cooper Email: To: Brian Subject: Re: Chat Suggestion Message: Good idea Brian. I've accessed the chat room four or five times a day since it was opened and have yet to talk to anyone, a problem of living in Asia, unless I can find a few insomniacs. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jun 13, 1997 at 02:00:34 (EDT)
Poster: lost Email: HUNGRY FOR IT! To: Bill Cooper Subject: Re: Chat Suggestion Message: Good idea Brian. I've accessed the chat room four or five times a day since it was opened and have yet to talk to anyone, a problem of living in Asia, unless I can find a few insomniacs. would love to get to chat room but don't know how? Would also like to try these secret techniques,when are you going to give them? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jun 12, 1997 at 12:27:11 (EDT)
Poster: Anon Email: To: Everyone Subject: Nothing can stop this Message: I just stopped by to read the latest. I have to say, I can't believe how some of you can bear to indulge in quite so much inane and repetitive mud slinging at each other. Why? is all I can wonder. Also some people write stuff that is so cryptic and bizarre that one wonders if this site is being currently visited by some very mentally disturbed characters. I enjoy the posts which are articulate, honest, and stick to the subject. The others I could do without frankly. Especially as I am trying to archive this site in it's entirety,in order to distill the moments of wisdom, intelligence and relevence.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 12, 1997 at 13:33:41 (EDT)
Poster: Brian Email: To: Anon Subject: Re: Nothing can stop this Message: This site doesn't just serve as a repository of information about MJ and his accompanying belief system, although it's currently the only site I know of on the Web where you can find that information. It's also, as Deena has pointed out, a do-it-yourself deprogramming site on the way to self reliance. There are people who share their views on what hit them, but there are also posts from people trying to sort out what hit them, and how they came to be so vulnerable to being hit. Not everyone comes here all cleared of the crap and ready to show their freer side. Some will waffle a bit. Others will offer support for the process. Sort of like AA. But there are also
people posting here who will claim immunity from the facts that
the rest of us have to face in order to gain our lives back.
Since MJ continues to expand his organization, and it's
reasonable to assume that aspirants are also among those reading
these posts, it's not tolerable to allow pro-MJ posts to go
unchallenged. Anyone feeling responsibility for those friends who
got involved in the first place on their recommendation, must
also feel a responsibility toward those considering getting
involved now. Pro-MJ posts are going to be rightfully blasted,
just as pro-MJ 'testimonies' are not going to be included in your
database. Emotions will continue to flare at times over an issue
that is personal with most of the people posting here. AA would
ask people passing a bottle around to leave. Here they are also
encouraged to leave, or at least to squirm a bit against their
own imprisoning 'logic'.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 12, 1997 at 14:41:20 (EDT)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Anon Subject: Re: Nothing can stop this Message: Thanks Anon. Mudslinging has limited appeal compared to real, sincere consideration of the Maharaji phenomena. I, for one, never mind the reminder. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jun 12, 1997 at 14:54:59 (EDT)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Brian Subject: Re: Nothing can stop this Message: Having just read Anon's post -- and appreciating, as always, his clarity and focus -- I read Brian's. I must admit, he's right too. I guess this site does serve a couple of purposes. It IS a repository for the kind of thorough commentary people like Anon can muster. It's also the only place the premie mind can begin to come in from the cold. The emotional baggage attending this guru trip prevents those still even slightly suckered by Maharaji to talk straight at times. The rest of us either patiently assist them in tentatively stepping out of their mental prison (e.g. me) or tease and cajole them to no end (e.g. Brian). Some even lost their temper, deservedly for sure, at the shameless evasiveness of the thoroughly modern premie (e.g. Scott). All things considered, this is understandable and, Anon's plea for sober clarity notwithstanding, necessary in the circumstances. That's my
opinion for now until someone else posts something and changes it
completely.
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Date: Fri, Jun 13, 1997 at 13:31:43 (EDT)
Poster: DR. LIGHT Email: be happy@net.com To: Jim Subject: Re: Nothing can stop this Message: Thanks Anon. Mudslinging has limited appeal compared to real, sincere consideration of the Maharaji phenomena. I, for one, never mind the reminder. wE NEED IT ALL,everyone expresses theirselves in differant ways,compation here is important.Whenever there is rape of the soul,there is going to be strange reactions and we can't put limitations on that process.......lighten up,and call me in the morning jim Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jun 13, 1997 at 13:34:58 (EDT)
Poster: Jim Email: To: DR. LIGHT Subject: Re: Nothing can stop this Message: Thanks Anon. Mudslinging has limited appeal compared to real, sincere consideration of the Maharaji phenomena. I, for one, never mind the reminder. wE NEED IT ALL,everyone expresses theirselves in differant ways,compation here is important.Whenever there is rape of the soul,there is going to be strange reactions and we can't put limitations on that process.......lighten up,and call me in the morning jim Yes, well you didn't read my fast recantation, did you, Doctor? Not up on the literature, are we? Hmm. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jun 13, 1997 at 23:28:04 (EDT)
Poster: Chris Email: To: DR. LIGHT Subject: Re: Nothing can stop this Message: Thanks Anon. Mudslinging has limited appeal compared to real, sincere consideration of the Maharaji phenomena. I, for one, never mind the reminder. wE NEED IT ALL,everyone expresses theirselves in differant ways,compation here is important.Whenever there is rape of the soul,there is going to be strange reactions and we can't put limitations on that process.......lighten up,and call me in the morning jim What is this 'soul' thing that you are speaking of? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |