I have a cousin who has been an atheist for 30 years and recently I made him question calling himself that. I shared with him what I had learned in a book I'd read by Charles Templeton. In it, he explains that the 'atheist asserts that God does not exist, a conclusion as logically untenable as the contention that he does. Both the theist and the atheist arrive at their antithetical conclusions not by a process of logic but by an act of faith.' He goes on to explain further...
'The atheist insists that his conclusions are rational and have been arrived at after an examination of the available evidence. But such an assertion is unsupporable and presumptuous. Our world, our universe, and we ourselves comprise - to appropriate Winston Churchill's phrase in another context - 'a riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma' - and to assert unequivocally that we and the cosmos are the result of blind chance requires as great a leap of faith as that taken by the theist. Moreover, by insisting that there is no God, the atheist assumes the impossible task of proving a negative. Atheism is essentially reactionary. It is a reponse to those who assert that there is a God. It may legitimately be argued that the universe is impersonal, indifferent, and without apparent purpose, but to insist that this is so is not to demonstrate it. It amounts to abandonment of the inquiry.'

He continues on to explain how the agnostic differs from both the theist and aheist. 'To begin, let it be clear that agnosticism is not a halfway house between theism and atheism. The agnostic does not say, as is commonly believed. I do not know whether or not there is a God, he says, I cannot know. There may have been a First Cause to which one might apply the name God, there may even be a Supreme Being from which all existence proceeds, but on the basis of the available evidence the question is beyond resoulution. Is this quibbling? Hardly. If the existence of God is not demonstrable except by faith, and if there is no hard evidence that the universe was created by a First Cause, then agnosticism is the only rational position.'

And once more, 'As to whether or not there is a God, one may not simply beg the question by saying, I cannot know. This is an intellectual cop-out, a failure to attempt within the limits of one's ability to seek an answer to what is surely the ultimate question. One may not legitimately say, I cannot know, unless one has sought to know.' This last statement is my favorite. Having dedicated 30 years of my life to that very need to know and having come to the conclusion that I cannot know. Templeton goes on for several pages to discuss further about man's evolution etc. and his reflections on man's religions etc. The book is called Farewell to God and the chapter I quoted from is The God Myth - Is There a God?. He is a former Christian minister who led an evangelical crusade and spoke nightly to crowds of 10,000 to 30,000 in cities across Canada, the United States and Europe. He was best friends with Billy Graham at the time. He experiences the bullshit first hand and draws his own conclusions. Worthwhile reading.

Just thought that you could argue with me since no one else is here to....
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Do you see that Templeton's made the same mistake he's trying to avoid? He says that an agnostic acknowledges that he can't know if thereis a God. How does he know THAT?

Anyways, I'm always right. But it's been a long day. What were we talking about?
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Anyways, I'm always right. But it's been a long day. What were we talking about?
I agree. How can I know that I can't know when I use to know that I knew, what with having knowledge and all...it's so complicated, Canadian eh? I too had a long day, my car is a piece of shit but our mechanic tells us a sucker is born every day (yes, well we won't get into that). I've got my hub convinced to sell his soul to drive in luxury like his Lord. It's fun watching him relax into the norm and not slip into some holier than thou rhetoric. But on the topic, I do hesitate to be called an atheist or agnostic . Quess I'll have to settle for just being alive, that is if someone asks what I am. I would love to know what Templeton said to you that day considering that he has abandoned all of his own advise now. I'll call you Saturday and we can argue about something else, it's always more enjoyable in person anyways. Then you can tell me to ' just listen Deena', again. I miss that.

Yes, I AM always right....do you think it's a Jewish thing?
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Yes, I AM always right....do you think it's a Jewish thing?
Hey just a minute now, you say that 'Templeton's made the same mistake he's trying to avoid' and isn't it true that you are too when you tote yourself as an atheist? I mean the certainty of God's existence is just as much an act of faith as the certainty that their isn't a God! I can't believe I nearly let you get away so easy just because it's been a long day for both of us....
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irene------------------------

How can you be so rude to my mother about her feelings? Her opinions are her opinions. Dah, she has anger. Gee I wonder why? Oh, could it possibly be that for 16 years she followed someone who she thought was a perfect master, when really, she figured out now, that he is anything but perfect.
She does have a lot of love in her heart. Not 'hate' as you so put it. She is angry that she followed a cult leader.
So do me a favour will you, irene?; and leave all the deceived ex-premies alone.
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OP, what would it take for me to win Maharaji's trust again. He's got mine. Like I say, I'm jsut tired of all this shit. But waht would I have to do? Do you think if I jsut promised to can the fucking questions, for God's sake. Yes, I admit, Maharaji never really said anything but go inside, that's where it's at('two turntables and a microphone!'). Everything else can best be chalked up to others' mistakes or lila or just general cosmic mystery. Look, I'll sign anything. I love him dearly. Remove my name.

Please Lord, if you're reading this, I can give you money. What do you say?
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Please Lord, if you're reading this, I can give you money. What do you say?
Jim, when you say you can give me money....how much are we talking about?
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You and this planet traveling in the middle of the Universe are most certainly cosmic mysteries.
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Does it matter if he came from a virgin? or an apple tree?
If his mom had anything to say she would want
Joe involved.(or whatever his name is)
Dont you like sex? Is there something about it that
makes it yucky for the son of god?
Where I was told about maharaji's 64 powers, you were
told jesus(yeshua) came from a spermless birth.

That doesn't mean jesus(yeshua) didnt have something to
say,
Tell me if you can what he meant when he said---If you live in my word you will know the truth and it will set you free--
Since the word is not jesus, since thats not even his name,
and its not the bible, since that is only 1850 years old (by your count) what is he saying?
Also, can you tell us the name that god calls himself?
Or, with your scripture access, how about the name that
your 150ad papers call the god.
As the guys in the mens breakfast say, ---we have a friend in Yeshua!---
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Dear Epistalarian,
Thank you brother for sharing some valuable tool of thought with brother Paul for, as has been said of others no doubt, he is young. Lo, it may better be said that he, TOO, is young (for Deena is young, you are young in spirit and I am young eternally in matters of the purse). Indeed, you have righteously tendered the scathe for Paul to brandish and cut his chaff and it will be good, for the young need to eat, and lo, he will eat in the field and then, who careth if he makes even a little mess?

Your points are good and your tongue is true. Years hence, when they have artificial intelligence, it may do no better. But, alas, dear brother, when you question Paul, while you ask him much, you leave one assumption too grand for even the devil himself. You question much but leave in tact the simple claim that Yeshua said this or that. Why argue so? Were you rushed?
Otherwise all is well, and we are well, having dug a new well and its water is cool is clear. You must visit us again. Peace be with you.
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I ve come back to the office - after my few days away - and I do seem to have stirred things up - sorry I never intended to start an argument.

For a number of reasons I ll have to retreat to e-mail.

1) My home PC is a never ending project - I started it a number of years ago - and now the oldest part is the motherboard - it creaks along with a 386 - I ll be changing that over the summer. Link that with BT costs and as I m a Yorkshireman I go for one of the cheapest on-line providers - AOL here - but I have to stick to 5 hours to keep it cheap [that keeps me to little more than e-mail].

2) As I m the IT person for the office I ve been using the work PC for the forum - but now I find on my return that I have a lot of work to do over the next few months - this will include early mornings, and late nights. And not a lot of time to ponder.

3) E-mail gives more breathing space - and emotions can settle before a reply is sent.

I ll still be happy to discuss issues with whoever - and my e-mail address of 'oily2000@aol.com' will reach me at home.

Jim - If you want to discuss with me I recommend you take a look at the book 'Evidence that demands a verdict' by Josh MacDowell - a lawyer who presents his case well. This offer is open to anyone else too.

I ve really come to appreciate you guys [all of you] - in the short time I ve been here you ve come to mean a lot to me.

I hope that the pressures of work will die down after a time - and I ll be able to come back and be a regular in the forum again.

Thankyou to all of you.

Paul
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PROVO, Utah (AP) -- A religious cult leader was sentenced Monday to five years in prison on rape charges for marrying off his 13-year-old daughter.

John Perry Chaney, leader of ``The House of Chaney,'' was convicted in April of three felony rape charges for performing a marriage ceremony in 1993 between his 13-year-old daughter and a 48-year-old friend.

Prosecutors say Chaney performed the marriage so the two would have sex, which they argued was aiding and abetting the rape of a child. The girl testified against her father; she now lives with her grandparents.

Judge Lynn W. Davis said he had no choice but to sentence Chaney to the minimum, mandatory sentence of five years to life in prison because Chaney didn't cooperate for a presentence evaluation.

Davis also ordered him to pay a $10,000 fine and $17,000 in restitution for his daughter's therapy.

Chaney lashed out at the judge, calling him unfit, a crook, and a criminal and accused him of treason. Chaney is a traveling missionary who opposes government institutions.

He renewed his claim that the wedding was a religious act ordered by God and that the state has no jurisdiction in the establishment of religion.

The 40-year-old Chaney himself married a 14-year-old girl and fathered a child with the girl in Michigan last year.'

Not relevant, just a mood-setter.
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'A hippie guru who gained a following among the rich and influential in the 1970s before he beat his girlfriend to death and stuffed the body in a steamer trunk has been captured in France after 16 years on the run.'

The rest of this related irrelevancy can be found on the AP newswire. So where is everyone? Hey, did you guys here the one about Maharaji in Nigeria?
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Or should we perhaps back it up a bit? Do you think Maharaji, whom you so dearly love, even knows who the fuck you are? Do you think he could pick you out of a police lineup? Say he was driving home one night, up PCH and, sorry to say, you're lying roadside amidst an awful car accident. Think Maharaji'd recognize you as one of his own? As he drove past, maybe he got a good look, and he's going back up to the res -- say it's a Sunday and Maharaji's getting back from sneaking into the Sunday Night Hare Krishan feast, where he goes from time to time not just 'cause it's free but because nobody makes Gulag Jammin's like those Krishnas -- but now he's driving home. Sees you lying comatose and keeps on going. (Of course you're supposed to. He's not ChiP's after all.) So he gets home, watches a little t.v. Meanwhile his dearly beloved premie's DYING down the hill and a few miles back. Think he'd know?

Let's say he doesn't. Let's say you die anyways (hey, we all have to die sometime is what they tell me, unless you know different. Mind you, I haven't had a knowledge session for years, so don't take my word for nothing.) But, if you DID die -- just humour me here a bit -- would Maharaji ever find out? What if you'd been a steady contributor for years? Would his accountant ever know? Or would you just kind of pass along, 'dear love' and all, off to wherever dead devotees go. Would he be there waiting for you? You sure?
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Anyways, Bill, have a good summer. Never leave room for God in your mind and don't delay if you can help it. Something like that. Take care.
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- Scott
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Okay, that's all well and good for us regualr folk, imperfect, confused but hopefully learning shit as we go along. But what about someone who sets himself forth as 'enlightened'? What about a 'Satguru" or 'Perfect Master'? What about the Lord? Does Maharaji have an unconscious? Can he ever learn from something he did a few years ago? Not if he's perfect.

But, if you say that he CAN learn from his past, and unravel his own motivations and fears, he doesn't understand them fully in the present. Now how in the world can you put your unconditional trust in someone who doesn't understand his own unconscious landscape? That's the general idea.

And I remember how necessary it was to believe that, unlike human beings, Maharaji really did have this timeless, egoless, vision of purity. But, like I say -- well, like the Guru Papers guys say -- how foolhardy to ignore the guru's own unconscious or assume he has none. Yes, we were FOOLS!
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Was one of Maharajis commandments* never give a sucker an even break*. I mean 99.999% recurring of the planet wouldn't give him a second look never mind consider him Lord of the Universe. We were suckers for love. I wonder if that guy went to the residence to see M. I remember standing by the roadside for hours to see Maharaji pass in a limo and when he came he had tinted windows so there wasn't even anything to see but I felt that by standing there in some small way I was connected with my Lord.
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Don't sweat it, Miranda. You are either still stuck in a pranam (and concerned that MJ is getting bad press here), no longer stuck in a pranam (and yet still looking back enough to be reading this), or a totally disinterested party. Just move along, and get that life you're recommending.
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What point did you play in YOUR indoctrination, Miranda?
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I find tears fall now too. But now it is when I read an ex-premie's post or e-mail and they share their pain and stories of betrayal. I am moved and I curse Maharaji for continuing to lead a system where so much abuse has taken place and no doubt still takes place.

I can't deny that I wish he'd have a few drinks, get into one of his many fancy cars and speed away to meet his end. I realize that his death would be a relief. The fact that someone else would spring up to be the next Perfect Master wouldn't concern me because I have a feeling that whoever that is, they wouldn't be as successful in deluding the masses due to the bad PR that would follow M's demise. I also doubt my husband would bother to check it all out. Maybe he would continue to love a memory, or over time, maybe not. But dead, Maharaji no longer continues to con people. The pain he's caused in people's lives cannot be changed by his death, but their are some who would enjoy the party of his wake....and what a party that would be.

Don't blame yourself JW, but your e-mail moved me to tears and made me realize one more time how disgusting his very existence is to me still. No one should get away with ruining lives the way he has. Sure, he is human and victim of the system his father set him up in, but he could stop and admit the harm he's caused. I don't care if he has brought joy to thousands of people, his Guru trip has destroyed some and left life long scars for others and that is unforgivable. There are probably tons of stories that have yet to be told. My own husband buries his own nervous breakdown in the ashram and chooses to rationalize the harm he witnessed. I haven't talked to him about that in weeks. I have chosen to love him and stand by him because I see that he doesn't practise as regularly or watch videos as often when he isn't confronted. If he has doubts, living with me will allow them to grow.

I know op, Chris and other premies hate what I write. Maybe even some of the ex-premies don't like when I talk about M's death. But that is how I feel. I will not weep. Not even for his children. I could never have felt that way a few months ago. When I first left M I felt no anamousity. I don't feel it now all the time. I know posts of me wallowing in sinfull wishes of M's timely death will cloud the purpose of this forum. I am being sincere and sharing how I feel. I don't care who does or doesn't like it.
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As for alerting people to the dangers of this particular cult, what do you mean? That people can be so damaged by it that they have trouble 'moving forward', perhaps? Your keen insights into the dangers of structuring a total life around a fraud would be much appreciated by those of us still wallowing. Do share.
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As for clits... It's an interesting image. Not relevant that I can see, but still an interesting image.
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As for clits... It's an interesting image. Not relevant that I can see, but still an interesting image.
WELL THERE WAS NO BETTER FEELING THAN HAVING SOME SOCKS ON,then making love in holly bliss,holly clits the best part of it all,theres where i felt some love, i don't mean to be rude here,but we are leaving out a big part of the whole thing,the ashram girls sneaking out,to have sex,a survival mode,how else could one survive all that bullshit?clits,sex,loving,hey we aren't in the fucking ashram here,lets talk about some fun topics. I remember that after darshan was the very best,you couldn't find a soul hardiy that wasn't secretly hooking up,GOD,was he incredible or what?yea!...what's your name? lets go to your room and have some socks on,ok..boom boom ...the girls would be bragging or complaining,how the ashram guys were like wild animals,but it didn;t last long! and then they would feel guilty as hell an run out back to the wholly shelter,but the girls felt like they were doing service!plus a little bit of that holliness rubbed off between their legs and made them GLOW.....this one ashram sister told me ..you know i just shut my eyes and pretend you are maraji and off i go....wo .... can it get any better than this,i don;t think so!of course its all based on hypybullshit.nothing real,just like everything else there in gmj's vertual reality.....
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I hope that Scott will publish these soon in an easy to read fashion (when I send him the HTMLS.)
Therein will be personal testimonies as submitted here. Unashamedly omitting those posts which are pro MJ.Meanwhile, keep those memories of your time in DLM coming in! Some of you are writing of your extremely interesting and pertinent observations and experiences. Others have more peculiar agendas.
Finally, there is considerable sympathy amongst many former premies for the fundamental question that this website poses. ie. What the hell hit us? Since I have shared these posts with various premies I have been overwhelmed (literally) with requests for printouts of the letters. That is very telling in itself as to the validity of this site. Premies are at last listening to the long repressed voice of integrity within them and are doing some honest 'house cleaning'.
Many find MJ's satsangs and attitude run frequently counter to their taste and sensibilities. Often after many years of giving him the benefit of the doubt they cannot deny what they see and hear any longer. This site feeds a living revolution in their lives. Premies will not just walk away without sharing their experiences with their friends worldwide. As someone once said when this site started:
'It's good to talk'
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It's also, as Deena has pointed out, a do-it-yourself deprogramming site on the way to self reliance. There are people who share their views on what hit them, but there are also posts from people trying to sort out what hit them, and how they came to be so vulnerable to being hit. Not everyone comes here all cleared of the crap and ready to show their freer side. Some will waffle a bit. Others will offer support for the process. Sort of like AA.

But there are also people posting here who will claim immunity from the facts that the rest of us have to face in order to gain our lives back. Since MJ continues to expand his organization, and it's reasonable to assume that aspirants are also among those reading these posts, it's not tolerable to allow pro-MJ posts to go unchallenged. Anyone feeling responsibility for those friends who got involved in the first place on their recommendation, must also feel a responsibility toward those considering getting involved now. Pro-MJ posts are going to be rightfully blasted, just as pro-MJ 'testimonies' are not going to be included in your database. Emotions will continue to flare at times over an issue that is personal with most of the people posting here. AA would ask people passing a bottle around to leave. Here they are also encouraged to leave, or at least to squirm a bit against their own imprisoning 'logic'.
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That's my opinion for now until someone else posts something and changes it completely.
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