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Ex-Premie.Org |
Forum II Archive #
1 |
From:
Nov 15, 1997 |
To:
Dec 9, 1997 |
Page:
1
Of:
5 |
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David Simpkiss -:- Bullshit -:- Tues, Dec 9, 1997 at 10:19:30 (EST)
Katie -:- a message from op -:- Tues, Dec 9, 1997 at 09:35:09 (EST)
David -:- New Forum -:- Tues, Dec 9, 1997 at 05:20:41 (EST)
___Sir David -:- Re: New Forum -:- Tues, Dec 9, 1997 at 08:20:17 (EST)
Deena -:- Yo Brian...talk to me -:- Mon, Dec 8, 1997 at 23:37:41 (EST)
___Rick -:- Re: Yo Brian...talk to me -:- Tues, Dec 9, 1997 at 00:04:03 (EST)
___1 -:- Re: Yo Brian...talk to me -:- Tues, Dec 9, 1997 at 00:16:08 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: Yo Brian...talk to me -:- Tues, Dec 9, 1997 at 01:37:27 (EST)
___Deena -:- Re: Yo Brian...talk to me -:- Tues, Dec 9, 1997 at 01:38:20 (EST)
___Deena -:- Re: Yo Brian...talk to me -:- Tues, Dec 9, 1997 at 01:41:03 (EST)
___1 -:- Re: Yo Brian...talk to me -:- Tues, Dec 9, 1997 at 02:11:58 (EST)
___three nights at the theater -:- will blow you away -:- Tues, Dec 9, 1997 at 02:31:11 (EST)
___Deena -:- Re: Yo Brian...talk to me -:- Tues, Dec 9, 1997 at 02:52:57 (EST)
___Deena -:- Re: will blow you away -:- Tues, Dec 9, 1997 at 03:00:13 (EST)
___1 -:- Re: will blow you away -:- Tues, Dec 9, 1997 at 03:01:47 (EST)
___night -:- owl -:- Tues, Dec 9, 1997 at 03:07:29 (EST)
___number 1's -:- great tao -:- Tues, Dec 9, 1997 at 03:22:25 (EST)
___1 -:- Re: Yo Brian...talk to me -:- Tues, Dec 9, 1997 at 03:45:47 (EST)
___Mr Ex -:- Re: will blow you away -:- Tues, Dec 9, 1997 at 05:22:12 (EST)
___Sir David -:- Re: Yo Brian...talk to me -:- Tues, Dec 9, 1997 at 08:31:47 (EST)
___Is that you, -:- Chris? -:- Tues, Dec 9, 1997 at 09:42:50 (EST)
Deena -:- Mr. Ex....help -:- Mon, Dec 8, 1997 at 23:27:32 (EST)
___Rick -:- Re: Mr. Ex....help -:- Tues, Dec 9, 1997 at 00:17:56 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: Mr. Ex....help -:- Tues, Dec 9, 1997 at 01:31:07 (EST)
___Deena -:- Re: Mr. Ex....help -:- Tues, Dec 9, 1997 at 01:58:26 (EST)
___Deena -:- Re: Mr. Ex....help -:- Tues, Dec 9, 1997 at 02:01:02 (EST)
___Deena -:- Re: Mr. Ex....help -:- Tues, Dec 9, 1997 at 02:19:44 (EST)
___1 -:- Re: Mr. Ex....help -:- Tues, Dec 9, 1997 at 02:45:44 (EST)
___Mr Ex / See your Ex dad now ! -:- Re: Mr. Ex....help -:- Tues, Dec 9, 1997 at 05:51:03 (EST)
___Mr Ex / See your Ex dad now ! -:- Re: Mr. Ex....help -:- Tues, Dec 9, 1997 at 05:51:07 (EST)
___Mr Ex -:- Re: Mr. Ex....help -:- Tues, Dec 9, 1997 at 09:21:18 (EST)
___Rick -:- Re: Mr. Ex....help -:- Tues, Dec 9, 1997 at 10:56:35 (EST)
Mr Y -:- Message to Prem Pal Singh Rawat -:- Mon, Dec 8, 1997 at 21:12:16 (EST)
___XYZ -:- Re: Message to Prem Pal Singh Rawat -:- Tues, Dec 9, 1997 at 00:34:41 (EST)
___Deena -:- Re: Message to Prem Pal Singh Rawat -:- Tues, Dec 9, 1997 at 03:04:11 (EST)
___XYZ -:- Re: Message to Prem Pal Singh Rawat -:- Tues, Dec 9, 1997 at 03:58:09 (EST)
___Mr Ex -:- Re: Message to Prem Pal Singh Rawat -:- Tues, Dec 9, 1997 at 05:23:45 (EST)
___Mt Y -:- Re: Message to Prem Pal Singh Rawat -:- Tues, Dec 9, 1997 at 09:03:12 (EST)
Probeing -:- X-MAN -:- Mon, Dec 8, 1997 at 15:51:38 (EST)
___John K. -:- Re: X-MAN -:- Mon, Dec 8, 1997 at 17:03:13 (EST)
___mind probe -:- X-MAN -:- Tues, Dec 9, 1997 at 01:55:40 (EST)
ds -:- advice wanted -:- Mon, Dec 8, 1997 at 12:28:50 (EST)
___ds -:- Re: advice wanted -:- Mon, Dec 8, 1997 at 12:30:39 (EST)
___aaarrrgghhhhh -:- Re: advice wanted -:- Mon, Dec 8, 1997 at 12:32:45 (EST)
David -:- Web site -:- Mon, Dec 8, 1997 at 06:40:12 (EST)
___David -:- Re: Web site -:- Mon, Dec 8, 1997 at 06:42:33 (EST)
___Brian -:- Re: Web site -:- Mon, Dec 8, 1997 at 07:04:14 (EST)
___Brian -:- Re: Web site -:- Mon, Dec 8, 1997 at 07:09:09 (EST)
___David -:- Re: Web site -:- Mon, Dec 8, 1997 at 09:25:34 (EST)
___Mr Ex -:- Re: Web site -:- Mon, Dec 8, 1997 at 09:50:04 (EST)
___Bobby -:- Re: Web site -:- Mon, Dec 8, 1997 at 09:56:40 (EST)
___Sir David -:- Re: Web site -:- Mon, Dec 8, 1997 at 11:49:39 (EST)
___David -:- Re: Web site -:- Mon, Dec 8, 1997 at 18:01:48 (EST)
___Mr Ex -:- Re: Web site -:- Tues, Dec 9, 1997 at 05:55:50 (EST)
Here is -:- A post from Seymour -:- Sun, Dec 7, 1997 at 22:53:28 (EST)
___Brian -:- Re: A post from Seymour -:- Mon, Dec 8, 1997 at 06:50:14 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: A post from Seymour -:- Mon, Dec 8, 1997 at 08:26:26 (EST)
Mili -:- Bizzare! -:- Sun, Dec 7, 1997 at 16:50:32 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: Bizzare! -:- Sun, Dec 7, 1997 at 17:31:40 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: Bizzare! -:- Sun, Dec 7, 1997 at 19:00:04 (EST)
___John -:- Re: Bizzare! -:- Sun, Dec 7, 1997 at 21:59:13 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: Bizzare! -:- Sun, Dec 7, 1997 at 22:00:50 (EST)
___Sir David (to you) -:- Re: Bizzare! -:- Sun, Dec 7, 1997 at 23:35:03 (EST)
___Sir David (again) -:- Re: Bizzare! -:- Mon, Dec 8, 1997 at 02:12:16 (EST)
___Brian -:- Re: Bizzare! -:- Mon, Dec 8, 1997 at 06:37:38 (EST)
___Sir David (to you) -:- Re: Bizzare! -:- Mon, Dec 8, 1997 at 11:40:25 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: Bizzare! -:- Mon, Dec 8, 1997 at 18:45:30 (EST)
___Sir David -:- Re: Bizzare! -:- Mon, Dec 8, 1997 at 19:23:45 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: Bizzare! -:- Mon, Dec 8, 1997 at 19:33:05 (EST)
___Sir David -:- Re: Bizzare! -:- Mon, Dec 8, 1997 at 19:39:02 (EST)
___Sir David -:- Re: Bizzare! -:- Mon, Dec 8, 1997 at 20:02:38 (EST)
___CD -:- Re: Bizzare! -:- Tues, Dec 9, 1997 at 04:28:23 (EST)
Deena T -:- Bliss -:- Sun, Dec 7, 1997 at 15:09:46 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: Bliss -:- Sun, Dec 7, 1997 at 15:34:57 (EST)
___David Simpkiss -:- Re: Bliss -:- Mon, Dec 8, 1997 at 01:12:55 (EST)
___Deena -:- Re: Bliss -:- Mon, Dec 8, 1997 at 12:32:54 (EST)
HRH's Subject -:- Good morning America -:- Sun, Dec 7, 1997 at 03:19:16 (EST)
___Mike -:- Re: Good morning America -:- Sun, Dec 7, 1997 at 09:52:12 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: Good morning America -:- Sun, Dec 7, 1997 at 10:10:30 (EST)
David Simpkiss -:- Katie's query on Word -:- Sun, Dec 7, 1997 at 01:50:44 (EST)
___Mike -:- Re: Katie's query on Word -:- Sun, Dec 7, 1997 at 09:46:25 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: Katie's query on Word -:- Sun, Dec 7, 1997 at 11:28:32 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: Katie's query on Word - Bobby's post -:- Sun, Dec 7, 1997 at 11:48:05 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: Katie's query on Word - Bobby's post -:- Sun, Dec 7, 1997 at 12:17:48 (EST)
___Sir David -:- Re: Katie's query on Word - Bobby's post -:- Sun, Dec 7, 1997 at 13:23:58 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: Katie's query on Word - Bobby's post -:- Sun, Dec 7, 1997 at 13:43:31 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: Katie's query on Word - Bobby's post -:- Sun, Dec 7, 1997 at 14:21:37 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: Katie's query on Word - Bobby's post -:- Sun, Dec 7, 1997 at 14:35:35 (EST)
___Mili to Katie -:- Re: Katie's query on Word - Bobby's post -:- Sun, Dec 7, 1997 at 15:01:24 (EST)
___Katie to Mili -:- Re: Katie's query on Word - Bobby's post -:- Sun, Dec 7, 1997 at 22:22:57 (EST)
___Ministry of Silly Walks -:- Re: Katie's query on Word -:- Sun, Dec 7, 1997 at 23:14:39 (EST)
___Stop dateing -:- and start mating -:- Mon, Dec 8, 1997 at 00:32:50 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: Katie's query on Word -:- Mon, Dec 8, 1997 at 18:17:28 (EST)
___More on the program -:- Mili -:- Tues, Dec 9, 1997 at 01:04:00 (EST)
Mili -:- Another Nice Link -:- Sat, Dec 6, 1997 at 15:50:54 (EST)
___desperately -:- sikhing some clarity -:- Sun, Dec 7, 1997 at 01:05:41 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: sikhing some clarity -:- Sun, Dec 7, 1997 at 11:35:26 (EST)
___Someone else -:- Re: sikhing some clarity -:- Sun, Dec 7, 1997 at 19:48:40 (EST)
___She Warrior -:- Kate the Great -:- Mon, Dec 8, 1997 at 01:12:47 (EST)
___This little piggie wrecked the market -:- this little piggie became one -:- Mon, Dec 8, 1997 at 01:33:49 (EST)
___Kathryn the Great -:- Blows against the Empire -:- Mon, Dec 8, 1997 at 08:33:17 (EST)
___Someone else -:- Re: this little piggie became one -:- Mon, Dec 8, 1997 at 09:23:34 (EST)
___Bobby -:- Re: this little piggie became one -:- Mon, Dec 8, 1997 at 11:20:27 (EST)
___Michael -:- Re: sikhing some clarity -:- Mon, Dec 8, 1997 at 19:50:04 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: sikhing some clarity -:- Mon, Dec 8, 1997 at 22:39:15 (EST)
___Katherine the great -:- sikh of the mantra -:- Tues, Dec 9, 1997 at 01:30:45 (EST)
___Kathryn the semi-great -:- Re: sikh of the mantra -:- Tues, Dec 9, 1997 at 02:00:48 (EST)
___hobbes -:- sikh of the mantra -:- Tues, Dec 9, 1997 at 02:53:35 (EST)
Katie -:- Newsgroup -:- Sat, Dec 6, 1997 at 11:05:39 (EST)
___Katie -:- OOPS! -:- Sat, Dec 6, 1997 at 12:28:43 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: Newsgroup -:- Sat, Dec 6, 1997 at 12:32:33 (EST)
Mili -:- A Link for the Ex-premie Website -:- Sat, Dec 6, 1997 at 08:01:36 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: A Link for the Ex-premie Website -:- Sat, Dec 6, 1997 at 10:38:32 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: A Link for the Ex-premie Website -:- Sat, Dec 6, 1997 at 10:59:15 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: A Link for the Ex-premie Website -:- Sat, Dec 6, 1997 at 11:12:01 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: A Link for the Ex-premie Website -:- Sat, Dec 6, 1997 at 11:17:44 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: A Link for the Ex-premie Website -:- Sat, Dec 6, 1997 at 11:19:53 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: A Link for the Ex-premie Website -:- Sat, Dec 6, 1997 at 11:54:47 (EST)
___Bobby -:- Re: A Link for the Ex-premie Website -:- Sat, Dec 6, 1997 at 14:02:24 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: A Link for the Ex-premie Website -:- Sat, Dec 6, 1997 at 14:03:45 (EST)
___Bobby -:- Re: A Link for the Ex-premie Website -:- Sat, Dec 6, 1997 at 14:11:08 (EST)
___Bobby -:- Re: A Link for the Ex-premie Website -:- Sat, Dec 6, 1997 at 14:38:11 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: A Link for the Ex-premie Website -:- Sat, Dec 6, 1997 at 18:32:53 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: A Link for the Ex-premie Website -:- Sat, Dec 6, 1997 at 18:48:31 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: A Link for the Ex-premie Website -:- Sat, Dec 6, 1997 at 19:38:21 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: A Link for the Ex-premie Website -:- Sat, Dec 6, 1997 at 19:52:31 (EST)
___John -:- Re: A Link for the Ex-premie Website -:- Sat, Dec 6, 1997 at 20:56:56 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: A Link for the Ex-premie Website -:- Sat, Dec 6, 1997 at 23:13:42 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: A Link for the Ex-premie Website -:- Sun, Dec 7, 1997 at 03:53:34 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: A Link for the Ex-premie Website -:- Sun, Dec 7, 1997 at 08:05:54 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: A Link for the Ex-premie Website -:- Sun, Dec 7, 1997 at 08:17:48 (EST)
___Mr Ex -:- Re: A Link for the Ex-premie Website -:- Mon, Dec 8, 1997 at 05:38:47 (EST)
___Bobby -:- Re: A Link for the Ex-premie Website -:- Mon, Dec 8, 1997 at 09:53:22 (EST)
___Mr Ex -:- Re: A Link for the Ex-premie Website -:- Mon, Dec 8, 1997 at 10:22:12 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: A Link for the Ex-premie Website -:- Mon, Dec 8, 1997 at 13:22:13 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: A Link for the Ex-premie Website -:- Mon, Dec 8, 1997 at 15:57:26 (EST)
___Mili -:- to MrEx -:- Mon, Dec 8, 1997 at 16:11:33 (EST)
___Mr Ex -:- Re: to MrEx -:- Tues, Dec 9, 1997 at 05:57:17 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: to MrEx -:- Tues, Dec 9, 1997 at 09:28:41 (EST)
Date: Tues, Dec 9, 1997 at 10:19:30 (EST)
Poster: David Simpkiss
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: Everyone
Subject: Bullshit
Message:
I think XYZ mentioned something about Maharaji having seen the comedy of life. This life aint no comedy brother. Try telling a neglected child that their suffering is just an illusion.
Premies talk the biggest load of escapist bullshit I've ever heard. Why, even the Christians have a greater sense of moral duty.
Your ideology is to forget about the suffering and live in your fantasy world of Guru Maharaj Ji. How many people are you going to hurt alonf the way. How many families are going to be neglected?
And if your world is so true then why do you have to rely on seeing a Guru to bolster your belief?
Maharaji preaches spiritual values and yet he's a two timing alcoholic in reality. I've never seen so much irrelevent bullshit as what's been written by premies.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Tues, Dec 9, 1997 at 09:35:09 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email:
To: Everyone
Subject: a message from op
Message:
Hey guys - op is back and says hello. As you probably know, op and I don't agree on a lot of things, but I do like many of her postings. Here's some of her message if you are interested (slightly edited to remove personal stuff):
I will write some more. I will also write you some notes about darshan, arti - other bits and pieces. I saw my "name" thrown around a bit on some posts. I never meant to imply that certain things are in the past and Never Again. There are far too many people who long for the good old days - and M gives them a taste every once in a while.
[Mote to op: Deena agrees with you on this one - that there was always a possibility of M giving darshan - see "Kissing His Feet" below.]
As always, it's not a matter of trying to convince those for whom this path doesn't work. But I can tell you that this event, for me, was the MOST
incredible I've ever been to. Why M seems to have so many different faces, I don't understand. But the face he presents to me is always loving,
compassionate, caring, thankful. He actually personally thanked the team I was working with (in public).
And, as I've emphasized to David Simpkiss, I'm no one special - I'm not one of those rich guys who can give a lot of money, I'm married with children, and thus can't say I'm available 100% of the time. I was fortunate enough to be around in 1971, when there was opportunity to be with Maharaji personally in many more situations,
but the truth is, I don't see him as having changed all that much. Sometimes it's even hard for me to look at him and say "he's a grown-up now!" I certainly have never experienced that anger that people keep mentioning, although that's just me - I know he shows anger when things go awry because I know people who HAVE experienced it. But with me, he's always been gentle and
loving.
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Date: Tues, Dec 9, 1997 at 05:20:41 (EST)
Poster: David
Email: ds@ex-premie.org
To: Everyone
Subject: New Forum
Message:
We're trying out a new improved Forum to see if it works a bit better than this one. Click on the link above to try it out and if it is an improvement, we'll swop it over. There's also a link on the Site's What's New page.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Tues, Dec 9, 1997 at 08:20:17 (EST)
Poster: Sir David
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: David
Subject: Re: New Forum
Message:
The only way I can read this Forum 2 here is by using a pure text web browser called Lynx. It's very fast and rarely siezes up but it does not allow use of a mouse.
I'll try Forum 3 and report.
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Date: Mon, Dec 8, 1997 at 23:37:41 (EST)
Poster: Deena
Email: deena@cableregina.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Yo Brian...talk to me
Message:
Hi Brian, are you here. I meant to call you but every time I thought I would I'd chicken out cause I thought how I'd probably go on about how frightened I was about what affect going to see M was going to have on my husband.
I haven't felt like it's been fair to share that because I remained hopefull that maybe he'd have a mini revelation. I think he got a bit confused but all in all I'd say he's inspired to rededicat himself.
Can't say I blame him. Must be tough to live with me knowing that I don't trust M. Not an easy situation. I just wish that he wasn't your typical premie that doesn't practise until he sees M because then it's like a teeter totter.
Sorry if I'm boring you or anyone else reading this. I feel very vunerable right now and any sane person could (and probably did) see this one coming.
I'll be okay, I feel better having written my two posts. Thanks for listening anyone.
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Date: Tues, Dec 9, 1997 at 00:04:03 (EST)
Poster: Rick
Email: rtaraday@hotmail.com
To: Deena
Subject: Re: Yo Brian...talk to me
Message:
Hi Brian, are you here. I meant to call you but every time I thought I would I'd chicken out cause I thought how I'd probably go on about how frightened I was about what affect going to see M was going to have on my husband.
I haven't felt like it's been fair to share that because I remained hopefull that maybe he'd have a mini revelation. I think he got a bit confused but all in all I'd say he's inspired to rededicat himself.
Can't say I blame him. Must be tough to live with me knowing that I don't trust M. Not an easy situation. I just wish that he wasn't your typical premie that doesn't practise until he sees M because then it's like a teeter totter.
Sorry if I'm boring you or anyone else reading this. I feel very vunerable right now and any sane person could (and probably did) see this one coming.
I'll be okay, I feel better having written my two posts. Thanks for listening anyone.
Hey Deena,
I hope it works out. Perhaps it's a sign of hope that your husband doesn't practice fervently all the time. Your post is very relevant, so don't worry about that. I'm sure there are others in the same situation. On a lighter note, just be happy that premies can't give satsang anymore.
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Date: Tues, Dec 9, 1997 at 00:16:08 (EST)
Poster: 1
Email:
To: Deena
Subject: Re: Yo Brian...talk to me
Message:
Did your husband get a copy of the new music CD to play?
The program was quite enjoyable.
A good time could be had at the event and after hours.
I'll bet your husband is in a good mood.
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Date: Tues, Dec 9, 1997 at 01:37:27 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Chris
Subject: Re: Yo Brian...talk to me
Message:
Did your husband get a copy of the new music CD to play?
The program was quite enjoyable.
A good time could be had at the event and after hours.
I'll bet your husband is in a good mood.
Chris (if this isn't you, I apologize.)
I understand that you liked the program, etc., but your comments (even though they are relatively innocuous) are probably not what Deena needs to hear right now. It's quite difficult to have a relationship with a practicing premie if you are not a premie yourself, especially if you are committed to the relationship, and if children are involved. I hope you can understand this, and possibly understand some of what Deena is going through.
If you want to talk about the program, you are welcome to, but you might want to start another thread to do so.
Regards,
Katie
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Date: Tues, Dec 9, 1997 at 01:38:20 (EST)
Poster: Deena
Email: deena@cableregina.com
To: 1
Subject: Re: Yo Brian...talk to me
Message:
Yes, he did get a copy of the new music CD (I noticed it) but he knows that I'm not the least bit interested in hearing it so he keeps it with all the CD's and tapes I gave him that I had when I was a premie.
And yes, I'm sure that he had a good time when he wasn't bothered by the thought of me.
But no, I much preferred his 'mood' as you put it before he went away. I don't like the new improved version much at all. He was much more there for me before and though he goes through the motions I find him to be keeping that one part of him from me that he, for a few months anyways, shared with me.
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Date: Tues, Dec 9, 1997 at 01:41:03 (EST)
Poster: Deena
Email: deena@cableregina.com
To: Rick
Subject: Re: Yo Brian...talk to me
Message:
Thanks Rick, it that does cheer me up that premies don't give satsang anymore.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Tues, Dec 9, 1997 at 02:11:58 (EST)
Poster: 1
Email:
To: Deena
Subject: Re: Yo Brian...talk to me
Message:
Why be negative towards your husband's enjoyment?
You won't benefit in the long run.
Why make the love towards your husband conditional on his current version?
This could be the very thing that keeps him distant from you.
There was truely a very good feeling at the Long Beach event.
Don't go too far out of your way to negate that possibility.
What would you do if nagged about a good time you had?
Let your husband enjoy being able to listen to the new music in his own home.
Fashion a compromise and both benefit.
Enjoy the mystery of your new future.
Good luck.
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Date: Tues, Dec 9, 1997 at 02:31:11 (EST)
Poster: three nights at the theater
Email: bb
To: Deena
Subject: will blow you away (Re: Yo Brian...talk to me)
Message:
Ever seen michael jackson perform?
It's a great show, but backstage when the lights go out,
it's just him and (whomever), and he makes lots of videos,
and songs and dreams up stage performances, keeps abreast of
his career, runs the homefront, has a family(sort of),
Keeps busy in the dream and the pursuit of it, and
the crowd goes away blown out and for days are aglow
with thier great experience of sensory input.
When I got a few calls yesterday and today, I could feel
the want to attend the events and oh hell, just go with
the whole fantasy performance. Nothing wrong with a
little theatre. I already know the songs, I like to dance,
the world is loaded with illusions, Like, for
instance, that I am an american, this is 1979, or maybe even
perhaps it's an illusion that I am a guy, a temporary
condition and one definition is that reality is the
thing that is changeless. maybe.
The problem for me is the same one I had before,
that when I view him as the lord, or master or authority
on the life inside, I become limited by his limits.
Because he speaks at great length, and he says a lot,
and in that lot there are a great many limitations
that become mine. And truly were mine, and those limits
run the gamut from my personal behavior, my relationships
with others, and I can't have an accurate relationship
or viewpoint on the power.
Unless he is free, hours of his words will in fact
bind me up.
But the binds feel like hugs!
But the freedom feels better.
I cannot wish him free.
Nice dream, nice theatre,
but something is amiss still.
knowledge and ignorance is poison.
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Date: Tues, Dec 9, 1997 at 02:52:57 (EST)
Poster: Deena
Email: deena@cableregina.com
To: 1
Subject: Re: Yo Brian...talk to me
Message:
Sorry I gave you the impression that there is any nagging going on here. That's not the case.
And as far as the music goes, I don't expect my husband or you to understand, but it is very sickening to me to hear the devotional words sung with such feeling for Maharaji whom myself and so many others have suffered knowing. At least my husband realizes that he has no right to fill the airways with something I don't enjoy, so he listens at other times and other ways.
I don't see that he is enjoying himself all that much, but he does seem confused...you know, that 'Mind' that M always warns of that sneaks back in after a program. Did you ever ask yourself what that is that he's talking about? That is such a statement. That as powerful as your good time is with him, it is taken away by being back in the world. Leaves a premie with one desire or longing, which is to get back to that feeling which means that a duality is set up. Duality that I am grateful to be rid of.
Believing in 'Mind' is the most crippling part of Maharaji's Knowledge. I firmly believe that is the greatest wrong that he has done with the power of his being master to his devotees. This just occurred to me now and I'm grateful that somehow your post spurred the realization.
I rant and rave about alot. But this takes the cake for sure. I know I've seen it before when I spoke of the duality of mind and heart...but that whole thing he sets premies up to believe is real is a blantant lie. Have a good, even incredable time, doing something you really enjoy. You don't have this so called 'Mind' interfering as you come back? Like for example, you go on vaction with your family and it turns out to be a good time for all. You return happy with what happened. You'll cherish that memory for years to come and speak of it fondly. There is no struggle to keep the feeling happening when you return back to work and home life. Sure, everyone wants to stay on vacation and going back to work isn't fun necessarily. But people appreciate what has happened. You don't see this thing M talks about...all this battle between heart and mind just doesn't happen. No, that's reserved for premie's...it's slipping away, that intensity is going going.... gone. Soon there is this 'Mind' to blame for it. Stay in the experience, don't let it slip away. Hold that candle's flame carefully so it doen't blow out. Nurture that seed so it doesn't die.
It just isn't so with anything else. That struggle and fight...if it isn't thought reform wearing off, than if it is so powerful, than what a cruel setup to make the process so back and forth...this is 'Mind' this is 'Heart' this is 'Mind' this is 'Heart' on and on and on...is this what blessings are that Maharaji gives?
I remember Maharaji saying that being obsessed about anything else is not good but with knowledge it is good to be this way. He often tells stories of even aspirant dedicating themselves completely and they don't even have knowledge he is so impressed to say. He speaks like this and premies are so motivated for a while after each event. Contributions are flowing in after dry spells. Service is offered by inspired premies and aspirants alike. Meditation is happening with premies that normally forget to.
Then what happens?...after that doubt creeps in...could it be a healthy warning? No, it's bad. It's not a healthy gut reaction to something that once you are away from just doesn't make sense.
But premie's accept the fleeting nature of the experience and it makes them all the more eager to go once again. To give their money their time and turn off the doubts because standing on thin ice and feeling this instinct that it isn't safe, well ignore that! What purpose could that possibily serve when you've decided that you want to be out on that ice?
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Date: Tues, Dec 9, 1997 at 03:00:13 (EST)
Poster: Deena
Email: deena@cableregia.com
To: three nights at the theater
Subject: Re: will blow you away (Re: Yo Brian...talk to me)
Message:
Ever seen michael jackson perform?
It's a great show, but backstage when the lights go out,
it's just him and (whomever), and he makes lots of videos,
and songs and dreams up stage performances, keeps abreast of
his career, runs the homefront, has a family(sort of),
Keeps busy in the dream and the pursuit of it, and
the crowd goes away blown out and for days are aglow
with thier great experience of sensory input.
When I got a few calls yesterday and today, I could feel
the want to attend the events and oh hell, just go with
the whole fantasy performance. Nothing wrong with a
little theatre. I already know the songs, I like to dance,
the world is loaded with illusions, Like, for
instance, that I am an american, this is 1979, or maybe even
perhaps it's an illusion that I am a guy, a temporary
condition and one definition is that reality is the
thing that is changeless. maybe.
The problem for me is the same one I had before,
that when I view him as the lord, or master or authority
on the life inside, I become limited by his limits.
Because he speaks at great length, and he says a lot,
and in that lot there are a great many limitations
that become mine. And truly were mine, and those limits
run the gamut from my personal behavior, my relationships
with others, and I can't have an accurate relationship
or viewpoint on the power.
Unless he is free, hours of his words will in fact
bind me up.
But the binds feel like hugs!
But the freedom feels better.
I cannot wish him free.
Nice dream, nice theatre,
but something is amiss still.
knowledge and ignorance is poison.
I actually understood what you were saying in your post, at least most of it. Must be because it's so late and I'm exhausted that I'm not distracted by anything else.
Did he not sound arrogant or condescending sometimes when he spoke this time? When I saw videos after I left, it amazed me how much ego he has. I use to wince sometimes and doubts would bounce into my head but I'd dismiss them because they intefered with the feeling of being hugged in the bind he wraps around his listeners. The weaving and spinning of tales to almost hynotic dizzying heights is many times spoken of in relation to cult leaders. It is their art and they are good at confusing their prey.
Thanks for the prose.
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Date: Tues, Dec 9, 1997 at 03:01:47 (EST)
Poster: 1
Email:
To: three nights at the theater
Subject: Re: will blow you away (Re: Yo Brian...talk to me)
Message:
> Because he speaks at great length, and he says a lot,
and in that lot there are a great many limitations
that become mine.
Bill,
right again!
Bound by the limits of reasoning and muscle in this reality.
We must stop at the red lights or danger awaits,
all because we can not fly without wings.
And do be careful of which planes you board,
and the wild New York nightclubs you relentlessly afford.
You do need to experience your own deepest reality.
free at last!
but wondering once again ...
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Date: Tues, Dec 9, 1997 at 03:07:29 (EST)
Poster: night
Email: b
To: yawn
Subject: owl (Re: Yo Brian...talk to me)
Message:
Gee, I don't like to rain on anyone's parade.
and christ-opher just got back and all, but I was sleeping
and I just woke up and posted that theatre piece half-sleeping, sorry chris, please feel free to speak at
length. Glad you had fun. You are welcome here.
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Date: Tues, Dec 9, 1997 at 03:22:25 (EST)
Poster: number 1's
Email: b
To: 1
Subject: great tao (Re: Yo Brian...talk to me)
Message:
what a great 8 line poem, number 1
really good
I've got to go to sleep. goodnight
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Date: Tues, Dec 9, 1997 at 03:45:47 (EST)
Poster: 1
Email:
To: Deena
Subject: Re: Yo Brian...talk to me
Message:
> Sorry I gave you the impression that there is any nagging going on here. That's not the case.
Spot on and cheers.
There is hope in this mad,mad,mad,mad world after all !
> Believing in 'Mind' is the most crippling part of Maharaji's Knowledge.
Do you truly believe that prejudices and taught religious convictions that have caused so much hatred are the natural bounty of the human condition?
The 'mind' is not the brain. The 'heart' is not bloody.
I do agree that 'believing in mind' is a great source of confusion.
There is natural beauty and feelings of love in this world.
We need to aim for that whatever we want to call it.
Well, we don't 'need' to, but it can be nice.
> You don't see this thing M talks about...all this battle between heart and mind just doesn't happen. No, that's reserved for premie's.
I am glad that premies do get to experience that there is a distinction between heart and mind.
It may not tell us what is at the edges of the universe but it captures that mysterious feeling.
Not easily satisified, we must figure it all out.
I am like you.
Two people both traveling through life into an unknown future..
We can always check and see if anything is really there.
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Date: Tues, Dec 9, 1997 at 05:22:12 (EST)
Poster: Mr Ex
Email:
To: 1: Mr PPR himself !!
Subject: Re: will blow you away (Re: Yo Brian...talk to me)
Message:
> Because he speaks at great length, and he says a lot,
and in that lot there are a great many limitations
that become mine.
Bill,
right again!
Bound by the limits of reasoning and muscle in this reality.
We must stop at the red lights or danger awaits,
all because we can not fly without wings.
And do be careful of which planes you board,
and the wild New York nightclubs you relentlessly afford.
You do need to experience your own deepest reality.
free at last!
but wondering once again ...
Nice to have you here ..... and writing.
I enjoy what you say, and what you write
but there is something awfully wrong in all this.
You don't live on earth, except for all the money that
naive people sent you.
Can you send me my money back ? The last 2,000 $ I sent
you. I have to check the exact amount. i'll send you
my bank account # so that you can make a transfer
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Date: Tues, Dec 9, 1997 at 08:31:47 (EST)
Poster: Sir David
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: Deena
Subject: Re: Yo Brian...talk to me
Message:
You've got it spot on there Deena with the so called conflict ot mind and heart. It is not healthy for people to live in a state of conflict. That is the main reason why I stopped seeing Maharaji. But does he know what he's talking about anyway. Some guy who depends on alchohol to make his life bearable can hardly preach to people about so called spirituality!
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Date: Tues, Dec 9, 1997 at 09:42:50 (EST)
Poster: Is that you,
Email: Katie
To: 1
Subject: Chris? (Re: Yo Brian...talk to me)
Message:
Chris (CD) are you "1"? I think so, but I've been wrong before. It's slightly confusing, especially with St. Bill using a different pseudonym every time.
Maybe you could use the square root of 2 (rounded off, of course!) instead.
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Date: Mon, Dec 8, 1997 at 23:27:32 (EST)
Poster: Deena
Email: deena@cableregina.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Mr. Ex....help
Message:
I need your input Mr. Ex. From what I've read of your posts, you still practice knowledge or meditate right?
My husband has begun to practise again after about 6 months of not. My concern is based on how much I enjoyed the new version of my husband since he stopped. Now he is inspired from his recent contact with M at the Long Beach event.
I want to feel good about this all starting up again but I don't. I'm asking you because despite your obvious distrust of M you don't distrust the meditation he teaches. It has been my experience, as you may already know from reading my previous postsm that the detachment that occurs as a result of meditation makes that duality of mind and heart that M speaks of seem real. I found that duality to be a receipe for madness and if you have a different slant please share it because I don't want to shut down my feelings for my husband but I feel it happening. Before it was easy to be loving and supportive but now I feel he'll be more receptive to M's suggestions about love being an illusion compared to divine love. Already he's shared, that although he does love me that his heart is spoken for. And this is something I can hardly blame him for since he was clear about this at the beginning of our relationship and it worked because both of us felt this way.
He's guarded since he came back and as loving as he seems to be I know the difference. Something M said rang true and it's as if he's made his mind up that this is his priority and the last few months probably wouldn't have been an emotional rollcoaster if he listened to M in the first place.
I agree. For him it wouldn't be comfortable to feel so many emotions after so many years in the ashram of denying all of them except his love for Maharaji.
I sincerely want not to judge what's happening but as you can see I am. Can you share some insight into how it isn't a threat, something positive about him being disciplined again?
If your have anything, you can e-mail me if you like or answer here on the forum. I understand if you have nothing to share, I'm just stabbing in the dark here.
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Date: Tues, Dec 9, 1997 at 00:17:56 (EST)
Poster: Rick
Email: rtaraday@hotmail.com
To: Deena
Subject: Re: Mr. Ex....help
Message:
I need your input Mr. Ex. From what I've read of your posts, you still practice knowledge or meditate right?
My husband has begun to practise again after about 6 months of not. My concern is based on how much I enjoyed the new version of my husband since he stopped. Now he is inspired from his recent contact with M at the Long Beach event.
I want to feel good about this all starting up again but I don't. I'm asking you because despite your obvious distrust of M you don't distrust the meditation he teaches. It has been my experience, as you may already know from reading my previous postsm that the detachment that occurs as a result of meditation makes that duality of mind and heart that M speaks of seem real. I found that duality to be a receipe for madness and if you have a different slant please share it because I don't want to shut down my feelings for my husband but I feel it happening. Before it was easy to be loving and supportive but now I feel he'll be more receptive to M's suggestions about love being an illusion compared to divine love. Already he's shared, that although he does love me that his heart is spoken for. And this is something I can hardly blame him for since he was clear about this at the beginning of our relationship and it worked because both of us felt this way.
He's guarded since he came back and as loving as he seems to be I know the difference. Something M said rang true and it's as if he's made his mind up that this is his priority and the last few months probably wouldn't have been an emotional rollcoaster if he listened to M in the first place.
I agree. For him it wouldn't be comfortable to feel so many emotions after so many years in the ashram of denying all of them except his love for Maharaji.
I sincerely want not to judge what's happening but as you can see I am. Can you share some insight into how it isn't a threat, something positive about him being disciplined again?
If your have anything, you can e-mail me if you like or answer here on the forum. I understand if you have nothing to share, I'm just stabbing in the dark here.
Deena,
It may help to remember that regardless of what your husband thinks about his feelings for you, that they have a life of their own. Just because he gets swept away in the idea that feelings are illusion, it doesn't mean they are. The illusion is thinking that romantic love is illusion. If you've got the patience, hang in there, and focus on what you know to be true about the connection you have. I realize this isn't easy, and I've never been very successful at it myself, but in the end, he may give up on trying to suck blood out of a turnip. It's so wierd how all of a sudden you realize you're not getting any ongoing realization, and how you're mostly struggling to keep believing something.
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Date: Tues, Dec 9, 1997 at 01:31:07 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Deena
Subject: Re: Mr. Ex....help
Message:
Hi Deena - I really want to respond, even though I don't have much practical or divine advice to give you. Also, I don't know what to say about the meditation, although I think it's the context of devotion that it is practiced in, rather than the meditation itself, that can make it alienating. Truly, I think the thing about human love (eros?) being somehow less than divine love (agape?) is a bunch of crap - or else Maharaji has got it confused. They are different, but I don't think one is necessarily better than another. You can feel both "human" AND "divine" love for your partner - not just Maharaji. Sometimes it really helps me to be able to see the "divine" or the soul, or the life force in my husband when I'm having trouble feeling "human" love for him! It seems like Maharaji wants to corner the market on all the "divine" love that's out there. I don't think that's right, and I think one can love god/the life force/the higher power or whatever just as much in any other human being than one can in Maharaji. He's just a human being too.
I am very sorry that you are having a hard time. If there's anything I can do, please e-mail me. I can relate, very slightly anyway, because of some relationships I had with premie men back when I was a premie. They were always agonizing about choosing between me and the ashram, or me and Maharaji or whatever. This was very hurtful for me - I mean, how can you compete with GOD, after all.
Please take care of yourself and keep in touch. Your Journeys entry is great, and I want to write to you about it when I get time.
Love,
Katie
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Date: Tues, Dec 9, 1997 at 01:58:26 (EST)
Poster: Deena
Email: Deena@cableregina.com
To: Rick
Subject: Re: Mr. Ex....help
Message:
That is so true about focusing on our connection. It's difficult when I like what we were before he went and now I have to make such an effort to see that somewhere, like you say, he is still there. Problem is that because I was duped by M I'm distrustful of his motives for being so open with me for especially the two weeks prior to him leaving. I question whether he'd done anything because he wanted to go without the fear of losing me in the process. So he gave me himself completely and I loved it. But the night before he left he joked about how he didn't want to think of me during the event and though he was laughing at the time the truth of what slipped out cut through me like a knife.
He was hurt that I reacted by saying that it probably was true. He felt that all the effort he'd made up until then was undermined by my saying that. I quess I was suppose to take it as a joke but I couldn't. When he was gone I was insecure because I knew that if he could shut down his feelings so quickly after giving so much that M's influence would have more impact. I regretted not just kidding back at him that he only wished he could forget me. But that's not what happened.
I know better than to beat myself up for being myself. But that brings me to the sadness of all of this. He is so attracted to ignoring anything negative and just loving M and how can I expect him to do otherwise because that is him. I think of those followers of Marshall Applewhite and how comfortable with his truth about what this life was. They willingly followed him to their graves. The confidence they had was mindblowing. You thought that this was a good thing to committ suicide and perhaps everyone was missing they're true destiny. I'm not at all implying that M is a suicide cult. But that's not the point. When he talks about what those who leave M are they are not put in a flattering light...as gentle as he may express it these days. Tulsidas said those that don't bow their heads to the lotus feet of the perfect master are like dried bitter pumpkin heads. This was written for the lyrics in english on one of the Indian CD's he released last year.
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Date: Tues, Dec 9, 1997 at 02:01:02 (EST)
Poster: Deena
Email: deena@cableregina.com
To: Katie
Subject: Re: Mr. Ex....help
Message:
Thanks for your love Katie.
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Date: Tues, Dec 9, 1997 at 02:19:44 (EST)
Poster: Deena
Email: deena@cableregina.com
To: Rick
Subject: Re: Mr. Ex....help
Message:
Rick, I really like when you said that the illusion is thinking that romantic love is illusion, That's exactly what I feel and it contradicts Maharaji completely.
All these responses to my posts have really helped. I know I have to be patient and just love him unconditionally. You'd think I'd know how to do that after doing that with M. But I'm sensitive and signs of the aspects of our relationship that I don't want in my life anylonger scare me off.
Statistically I know that even couples who succeed in leaving a cult together find it difficult and often divorce. I quess the marriage was so dysfunctional it didn't survive. There are a few that do make it. I'm beginning to realize that I have to accept wholeheartedly the very real possibility that my husband may never be interested in leaving Maharaji and very well may not be equipped for what happens when you do. It's not easy. Sometimes I actually crave the numbness that results from extended meditation...it really does work like a drug if that is what you want. I believe that my husband uses it that way because emotions are painful at times. Maharaji always mocks emotiona with his ditty about 'motions commotions'. Their is so much to learn from emotions and like it's said....'life is full of ups and downs and that's how you know when you're happy' My husband thinks this is bullshit but I think it's so true and when I was a premie I would have thought it was crap too.
As the cult experts say...'when in doubt, get out' In M's world doubts are something to be rid of. That's why Jim's friend hung himself. You know, I see the image of a young man hanging himself because when he had doubts and wanted to share them with Jim and the other ashram premies, he was told he should go meditate. That story is haunting. How all the premies were blissed out that night despite what had happened and didn't speak of it after. Yes, Knowledge does shelter and is an oasis from the pain and suffering of this world. But is this what a human being should be like and is this the ultimate to live in a world like this?
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Date: Tues, Dec 9, 1997 at 02:45:44 (EST)
Poster: 1
Email:
To: Deena
Subject: Re: Mr. Ex....help
Message:
> Rick, I really like when you said that the illusion is thinking that romantic love is illusion, That's exactly what I feel and it contradicts Maharaji completely.
The illusion is the endless explanations.
It is one thing to get a good joke and another to discover reality.
The notion of true love has always been associated with beautiful feeling that is not hostage to conditions.
A feeling that simply exists inside human beings without reason or explanation.
M did say that God has so much mercy that he made that worm have both sexes because he couldn't get a date.
Yes romantic love can be a bit confusing.
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Date: Tues, Dec 9, 1997 at 05:51:03 (EST)
Poster: Mr Ex / See your Ex dad now !
Email:
To: Deena
Subject: Re: Mr. Ex....help
Message:
Thanks for your love Katie.
Please don't ask me for help!
I'll email you ....
I'm not playing anything here,
ask '1' ....... your ex-dad is on-line
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Date: Tues, Dec 9, 1997 at 05:51:07 (EST)
Poster: Mr Ex / See your Ex dad now !
Email:
To: Deena
Subject: Re: Mr. Ex....help
Message:
Thanks for your love Katie.
Please don't ask me for help!
I'll email you ....
I'm not playing anything here,
ask '1' ....... your ex-dad is on-line
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Date: Tues, Dec 9, 1997 at 09:21:18 (EST)
Poster: Mr Ex
Email:
To: 1
Subject: Re: Mr. Ex....help
Message:
>The illusion is the endless explanations.
>It is one thing to get a good joke and another to discover reality.
>The notion of true love has always been associated with beautiful feeling that is not hostage to conditions.
>A feeling that simply exists inside human beings without reason or explanation.
>M did say that God has so much mercy that he made that worm have both sexes because he couldn't get a date.
>Yes romantic love can be a bit confusing.
PPR just said one more stupid thing !
Worms have both sexes : yes.
At the same time : no !
They need to mate. One time as male, one time (some time later as a female).
Law of nature.
If you don’t believe me, read some school books.
If you don’t have any, ask Amtext or Chuck Nathan.
No romance in this.
Nor in Chuck Nathan’s business.
That true feeling exists in every human being : yes !
No need to link it to devotion to a ‘master’.
The person who lures people (because it works) into that is a criminal.
Many type of introspection techniques can take you to that experience.
Saying that only the ‘master’ can do that, and luring people into it is
deceitful and criminal.
Saying that experience is ‘reality’ is very deceitful : it is what it is.
It’s a great feeling : yes.
It’s love : yes.
Any other thing is also real : no more, no less.
Who are you to classify feelings and say what is true and what is not ?
Are you the Creator ?
I also know the Creator.
He never said stupid things like that.
Nor did he say anything, as a matter of fact.
Enjoy whatever you feel.
Don’t take people into any business in the name of God.
Except into the business of knowing it .
Humbly.
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Date: Tues, Dec 9, 1997 at 10:56:35 (EST)
Poster: Rick
Email: rtaraday@hotmail
To: Deena
Subject: Re: Mr. Ex....help
Message:
That is so true about focusing on our connection. It's difficult when I like what we were before he went and now I have to make such an effort to see that somewhere, like you say, he is still there. Problem is that because I was duped by M I'm distrustful of his motives for being so open with me for especially the two weeks prior to him leaving. I question whether he'd done anything because he wanted to go without the fear of losing me in the process. So he gave me himself completely and I loved it. But the night before he left he joked about how he didn't want to think of me during the event and though he was laughing at the time the truth of what slipped out cut through me like a knife.
He was hurt that I reacted by saying that it probably was true. He felt that all the effort he'd made up until then was undermined by my saying that. I quess I was suppose to take it as a joke but I couldn't. When he was gone I was insecure because I knew that if he could shut down his feelings so quickly after giving so much that M's influence would have more impact. I regretted not just kidding back at him that he only wished he could forget me. But that's not what happened.
I know better than to beat myself up for being myself. But that brings me to the sadness of all of this. He is so attracted to ignoring anything negative and just loving M and how can I expect him to do otherwise because that is him. I think of those followers of Marshall Applewhite and how comfortable with his truth about what this life was. They willingly followed him to their graves. The confidence they had was mindblowing. You thought that this was a good thing to committ suicide and perhaps everyone was missing they're true destiny. I'm not at all implying that M is a suicide cult. But that's not the point. When he talks about what those who leave M are they are not put in a flattering light...as gentle as he may express it these days. Tulsidas said those that don't bow their heads to the lotus feet of the perfect master are like dried bitter pumpkin heads. This was written for the lyrics in english on one of the Indian CD's he released last year.
You captured the trouble of the situation. It wouldn't be easy for me to ignore, if I was in your position, and I'm not sure I'd want to. I'd probably get sarcastic. At least as a non-premie you can get angry at such craziness, and know you aren't in your "mind". Your husband may not realize how much nurturing he gets from you. If he's ever faced with not having it, it may open his eyes a little. It's true that some people never snap out of the denial that they think is dedication. Many times there are ways to reach people, but it's very hard to know the effective thing to point out. Or the effective way to act and respond to bring about the realization that a person is denying something that is true. I guess all you can do is give it a shot.
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Date: Mon, Dec 8, 1997 at 21:12:16 (EST)
Poster: Mr Y
Email:
To: Everyone
Subject: Message to Prem Pal Singh Rawat
Message:
This message was posted to the newsgroup from Yves Pageau:
You did a lot of harm to a lot of people for a long time. You've got lots of ennemies and devotees are starting to question your dogma. You
got filthy rich. You stashed a lot of cash. Now it time to take the money and run before it's too late and your luck runs out.
Remember what happened to other members of your industry. Remember the baptist preachers, Rajnesh, Moon. It won't go away. It will be worse from now on. The tables have turned for good. Retire, you've got enough. You've done enough.
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Date: Tues, Dec 9, 1997 at 00:34:41 (EST)
Poster: XYZ
Email:
To: Mr Y
Subject: Re: Message to Prem Pal Singh Rawat
Message:
M should give up because he encounters a few confused people?
He has seen his share of the comedy of life.
He sticks to a true cause amidst the confusion.
He sticks to his guns.
Jai YipeeYiYai
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Date: Tues, Dec 9, 1997 at 03:04:11 (EST)
Poster: Deena
Email: deena@cableregina.com
To: XYZ
Subject: Re: Message to Prem Pal Singh Rawat
Message:
M should give up because he encounters a few confused people?
He has seen his share of the comedy of life.
He sticks to a true cause amidst the confusion.
He sticks to his guns.
Jai YipeeYiYai
90% of the people who received Knowledge is not just a few. If all the premies who have left Maharaji gathered in one spot there wouldn't be the technology to make it possible, even outdoors. I mean it would make the events in India look tiny!
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Date: Tues, Dec 9, 1997 at 03:58:09 (EST)
Poster: XYZ
Email:
To: Deena
Subject: Re: Message to Prem Pal Singh Rawat
Message:
> If all the premies who have left Maharaji gathered in one spot there wouldn't be the technology to make it possible, even outdoors. I mean it would make the events in India look tiny!
Add in all the current premies and this is going to be the event to remember.
Sounds good.
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Date: Tues, Dec 9, 1997 at 05:23:45 (EST)
Poster: Mr Ex
Email:
To: XYZ
Subject: Re: Message to Prem Pal Singh Rawat
Message:
> If all the premies who have left Maharaji gathered in one spot there wouldn't be the technology to make it possible, even outdoors. I mean it would make the events in India look tiny!
Add in all the current premies and this is going to be the event to remember.
Sounds good.
Ask '1' directly , he is on line .........
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Date: Tues, Dec 9, 1997 at 09:03:12 (EST)
Poster: Mt Y
Email:
To: Deena
Subject: Re: Message to Prem Pal Singh Rawat
Message:
M should give up because he encounters a few confused people?
He has seen his share of the comedy of life.
He sticks to a true cause amidst the confusion.
He sticks to his guns.
Jai YipeeYiYai
90% of the people who received Knowledge is not just a few. If all the premies who have left Maharaji gathered in one spot there wouldn't be the technology to make it possible, even outdoors. I mean it would make the events in India look tiny!Good point Deena. And what does the "perfect master" do about all those lost sheep. He critisises them or at best, forgets about them and pretends they were never there.
Compare this with Jesus's parable of the lost sheep where the good sheperd searched high and low for just ONE lost sheep.
This guy's not a perfect master, he's a charlatan!
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Date: Mon, Dec 8, 1997 at 15:51:38 (EST)
Poster: Probeing
Email: b
To: 98799757646376352434
Subject: X-MAN
Message:
Do you know what's happened to Chris Standerwick?
He has been in the garage for years.
And Tom Kelley? He has been at the house for years.
What do you think of the house?
A friend of mine has the blueprints.
Someone sent me the blueprints for the air conditioning layout. But it's a jumble of lines.
Why is it called a marble palace?
How many cars do the kids have?
And Marolyn? And Himself?
Is Claudia around? I heard she died.
Her ny boyfriends died of Aids, I know that for
sure.
What's up with Amar? I gave my kids his name for
thier middle name. Because maharaji indicated in
miami in 82 that he was the next perfect master.
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Date: Mon, Dec 8, 1997 at 17:03:13 (EST)
Poster: John K.
Email:
To: Probeing
Subject: Re: X-MAN
Message:
Welllll, just think...that'll give your kids something to laugh about when they are grown and they can tell their friends how they got such a strange middle name.
Their friends will go "wow, that's so cool".
Maybe.
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Date: Tues, Dec 9, 1997 at 01:55:40 (EST)
Poster: mind probe
Email: b
To: John K.
Subject: X-MAN (Re: X-MAN)
Message:
In my great foresight, I figured it would give them
a feeling of connection for the perfect master of THIER
time.
At this point 8yr old Ryan Amar likes his name.
The 16 yr old thinks it sounds cool, but he thinks all the
black basketball player names sound cool so I guess
it's exotic enough for him. I've been calling HIM Iverson
lately, for his behavior, and his making the varsity
basketball team. He did his micheal jackson moonwalk
and other dance steps at the last school dance and
everyone else stopped and circled him and watched.
The kid is a paradox. He is a show off for a crowd but
is a scaredycat other public places.
I've asked him over the years if he wanted to put out an
album or cd, because he seems like a performer, but he
declines.
maharaji named on persons child Henry. Good grief.
others got hindian names.
Like say, Johnanda K.
You didn't by chance speak at the monday afternoon
program in 79 did you?
I just remembered the name of the person who spoke.
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Date: Mon, Dec 8, 1997 at 12:28:50 (EST)
Poster: ds
Email: ds@ex-premie.org
To: Everyone
Subject: advice wanted
Message:
The following message was sent to the web site from Karen Sanvido . She says it's okay to repost it here, so if anyone has any advice for her, send her an email...
I have a friend who is currently in Los Angeles at a meeting with mj. I
am very worried that he may be into this too deeply. I would like to help
him but I don't know what to do or say. Can you help me.
I am writing from Guelph, Ontario, Canada. Do you have any help phone
numbers I could call, preferable toll free.
I care very much for my friend, however it seems he no longer has a mind
of his own, nor does he have any natural instincts. He is always quoting
what mj says. I have printed lots of information off of the net, which my
friend has not yet seen. I am a catholic, with a very strong faith and I
would risk our friendship if that is what it takes.
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Date: Mon, Dec 8, 1997 at 12:30:39 (EST)
Poster: ds
Email: ds@ex-premie.org
To: ds
Subject: Re: advice wanted
Message:
I forgot that anything posted between those little arrows vanishes. Her email address is ksanvido@uoguelph.co
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Date: Mon, Dec 8, 1997 at 12:32:45 (EST)
Poster: aaarrrgghhhhh
Email:
To: ds
Subject: Re: advice wanted
Message:
We'll get there in the end... Ignore the last message. The correct email address is ksanvido@uoguelph.ca
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Date: Mon, Dec 8, 1997 at 06:40:12 (EST)
Poster: David
Email: ds@ex-premie.org
To: Everyone
Subject: Web site
Message:
Just a quick note to say that there are a few new items on the site at http://www.ex-premie.org/pages/changes.htm
I've noticed that Netscape doesn't seem as fast as Explorer at updating changes. Try clicking the reload button to make sure you get the latest stuff.
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Date: Mon, Dec 8, 1997 at 06:42:33 (EST)
Poster: David
Email:
To: David
Subject: Re: Web site
Message:
P.S. to Deena... I tried to send you an email to let you know your Journey is now on line but it wouldn't connect. Is the one shown at the top of your page correct?
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Date: Mon, Dec 8, 1997 at 07:04:14 (EST)
Poster: Brian
Email:
To: David
Subject: Re: Web site
Message:
Netscape users who want to reload the page from scratch can also hold down the [SHIFT] key while clicking on the link, rather than first loading and then reloading the page. Doing this instead causes NS to ignore its cache and pretend it's a new unvisited link. Doing this with Internet Explorer, however, will automatically send a devotional email to Bill Gates.
Shift-Click Me to see the changes.
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Date: Mon, Dec 8, 1997 at 07:09:09 (EST)
Poster: Brian
Email:
To: Brian
Subject: Re: Web site
Message:
Oops :)
It's supposed to be the [CONTROL] key that you hold down. Shift-clicking causes the page to be saved to disk. (But then I guess you already just found that out, huh?)
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Date: Mon, Dec 8, 1997 at 09:25:34 (EST)
Poster: David
Email: ds@ex-premie.org
To: Brian
Subject: Re: Web site
Message:
Thanks Brian. Do you (or anyone else) know how to save all the messages to disc so that people can read them off-line? Scott did explain to me once but I seem to have lost the details.
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Date: Mon, Dec 8, 1997 at 09:50:04 (EST)
Poster: Mr Ex
Email:
To: David
Subject: Re: Web site
Message:
Thanks Brian. Do you (or anyone else) know how to save all the messages to disc so that people can read them off-line? Scott did explain to me once but I seem to have lost the details.
There is a very nice software to do that :
MSIE Cache Explorer, and also Netscape Cache Explorer
Not very expensive, on
http:\\www.mwso.com
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Date: Mon, Dec 8, 1997 at 09:56:40 (EST)
Poster: Bobby
Email:
To: Mr Ex
Subject: Re: Web site
Message:
I recommend Netscape and Corel Office Suite instead of Microsoft.
We don't want Sri Gates to take over the world do we?
He's definitely on his way. Talking about megalomaniacs.
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Date: Mon, Dec 8, 1997 at 11:49:39 (EST)
Poster: Sir David
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: Bobby
Subject: Re: Web site
Message:
Here here!! I hate the bastard. Windows 95 is the biggest load of old rubbish since he put DOS on the market. Notice how everything on it is geared to the user only using Microsoft products. Let's start a revolution and bring down Shri Gates Ji.
¼
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Date: Mon, Dec 8, 1997 at 18:01:48 (EST)
Poster: David
Email: ds@ex-premie.org
To: Mr Ex
Subject: Re: Web site
Message:
There is a very nice software to do that :
MSIE Cache Explorer, and also Netscape Cache Explorer
Not very expensive, on
http:\\www.mwso.com
Can you get it to work Mr Ex, because I've downloaded the program and it won't save anything more than the message list?
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Date: Tues, Dec 9, 1997 at 05:55:50 (EST)
Poster: Mr Ex
Email:
To: David
Subject: Re: Web site
Message:
>>There is a very nice software to do that :
>>MSIE Cache Explorer, and also Netscape Cache Explorer
>>Not very expensive, on
>>http:\\www.mwso.com
>Can you get it to work Mr Ex, because I've downloaded the
>program and it won't save anything more than the message list?
Once Cache Explorer is started and finished with it’s exploring
business, double-clik on the page you want to see (that should start
your MSIE), or any page/site linked to it. Then just follow the links
exactly like when you’re connected.
MSIE 4.0 almost does it without Cache Exlorer, but it fails or
doesn’t find the links in some instances.
Also, in MSIE options : check that you keep the pages long
enough in the cache. I set it for 400 days, and that you
give him enough space on your H Disk !
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Date: Sun, Dec 7, 1997 at 22:53:28 (EST)
Poster: Here is
Email:
To: Everyone
Subject: A post from Seymour
Message:
(The following post was posted by seymour_t@rocketmail on the alt.cult.maharaji newsgroup):
Hello All,
The responses to my journeys post have been mostly encouraging - two ‘wavering’ premies who thanked me for giving them something to help them abandon what they have previously relied on. I suppose they recognixed their own feelings and hopefully saw that if I and others can move away( and towards something positive - even if only to become a ‘seeker’ again) then so can they. It was a few years ago that I dropped out and it was a strange experience. I would have benefitted tremendously from the present web site and newsgroup as I felt very unsure of what I was doing. Out of all my friends I was alone in rejecting the path of knowledge and it’s hard disagreeing with the lord of the Universe and his followers when you have nothing to back you up but your own reasoning.
My friends were very sympathetic but they thought that one day I would come back to the fold and that I was just temporarily in my mind - which didn’t help me at all. As time went by and the vegetables did not rot inside I gained a bit more confidence and enjoyed reading humanist philosophy, psychology and many other subjects dealing with the human condition. I actually did a degree - something I would never have bothered with as a premie.
I realised that all this study could not offer anything like the ‘magic’ of satchitanand but it felt like I was taking responsibility for my own understanding of life rather than surrendering the reigns to a master who I now consider to know as much about how to run my life as anyone else.
However , even though I feel distant from DLM and in less need of support than others who are presently going through the transition
from devotee to ‘freethinker’, this ex-premie venture has proved helpful to friends of mine. I have printed out the archive of forum1 +
some other items and given it to a long time buddy. I was amazed at the effect it had on him. We always talk about G.M. and our opposing
attitudes towards him and knowledge but my opinions were never enough to convince him that there was anything to doubt about it all. The week after I had given him the folder he had given his practice of the knowledge up completely! - and has since told me of the sense of relief he feels at not having to meditate everyday or drain his meagre finances to visit Australia, Los Angeles or wherever else the festival are held. Added to this he is now getting on much better with his partner who could never understand his obsession with the whole business and no doubt felt a bit hurt that he chose to leave her to visit his guru or sit under a blanket for an hour each day.
So let’s hope the site & newsgroup keeps going - Although I know that we cannot convince the hard-liners, and I don’t know if I want to
suddenly dislodge anyone from their religions beliefs, it is a great help to those who have reached the end of their tether and realised
they are getting nowhere. Without the support of others who have gone through this it can be a very difficult leap into the unknown. What angers me is the fear that is instilled in premies - ‘rotting
vegetables’ and the like.
I remember G.M. saying (in Munich) that the most important thing was the link between him and his devotees. This link was a strong but complex cable that could be stretched almost endlessly. A premie might stop meditating, doing service or attending satsang but if the link broke (he rejected the master) because of its complexity, it could never be repaired. This really stuck in my mind. At the time I thought it was wonderful. As I sang Arti I knew that although I may be weak and undisciplined in my service or meditation I would always be connected to the all-compassionate Lord who would look after me forever. It was later when I began to doubt the wisdom of G.M. ,that this and many other similar satsangs played on my mind - putting the ‘fear of God’ in me. Wow , I am so glad to be out of it. I think even nowadays I get flashes of the fear of eternal damnation.
Cheers,
Seymour
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Date: Mon, Dec 8, 1997 at 06:50:14 (EST)
Poster: Brian
Email:
To: Here is
Subject: Re: A post from Seymour
Message:
I agree completely about this forum and the purpose it serves. When I first searched the net for references to MJ, it was in an attempt to resolve the whole issue that had been floating and unresolved during the time that he went to ground.
If I could make one change to the ex-premie site, I would do away with the "cult watch" stuff in favor of making it a site for premies that want the truth and want the support offered in this forum by others who have made the break from fantasy. As it is now, those who first read the site are rocked back on their heels by the accusation that they are in a cult. This is a hard-enough realization to have to come to on one's own without having to accept it from the get-go in order to view the contents of the site objectively. Just my tuppence worth...
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Date: Mon, Dec 8, 1997 at 08:26:26 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: David
Subject: Re: A post from Seymour
Message:
I agree completely about this forum and the purpose it serves. When I first searched the net for references to MJ, it was in an attempt to resolve the whole issue that had been floating and unresolved during the time that he went to ground.
If I could make one change to the ex-premie site, I would do away with the 'cult watch' stuff in favor of making it a site for premies that want the truth and want the support offered in this forum by others who have made the break from fantasy. As it is now, those who first read the site are rocked back on their heels by the accusation that they are in a cult. This is a hard-enough realization to have to come to on one's own without having to accept it from the get-go in order to view the contents of the site objectively. Just my tuppence worth...
Dear David - I do agree with Brian about the "cult watch" title, as you know. No one likes to think they're in a cult, or even WERE in a cult (by the present definition of "cult", that is.) Just my two cents worth as well...(us 'mericans don't speak too good of English but we sure can talk).
Regards,
Katie
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Date: Sun, Dec 7, 1997 at 16:50:32 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email:
To: Everyone
Subject: Bizzare!
Message:
It just occurred to me: here is a bunch of ex-premies with their ex-instructor giving them Knowledge reviews and they are constantly prattling about their ex-Guru Maharaji!
What kind of a crazy place is this, anyway?
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Date: Sun, Dec 7, 1997 at 17:31:40 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Mili
Subject: Re: Bizzare!
Message:
It just occurred to me: here is a bunch of ex-premies with their ex-instructor giving them Knowledge reviews and they are constantly prattling about their ex-Guru Maharaji!
What kind of a crazy place is this, anyway?
Sometimes I wonder.
P.S. By the way, Mili, what are YOU doing here!?
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Date: Sun, Dec 7, 1997 at 19:00:04 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email:
To: Katie
Subject: Re: Bizzare!
Message:
It just occurred to me: here is a bunch of ex-premies with their ex-instructor giving them Knowledge reviews and they are constantly prattling about their ex-Guru Maharaji!
What kind of a crazy place is this, anyway?
Sometimes I wonder.
P.S. By the way, Mili, what are YOU doing here!?
Well, for one thing, I was brushing up on my English. You have to admit I speak pretty good English for a Croatian guy, right? Also, I am comparing my own experiences with those of other people. Real life is not all roses, be it in the ashram or otherwise. There are thorns, too. Things were not all that perfect in the premie world, and they are not perfect whether you are a premie or not. My experience has been that Knowledge has made things easier and more clear for me in life.
It is interesting to read sincere accounts of people. But I find it hard to condone someone deliberately spreading lies.
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Date: Sun, Dec 7, 1997 at 21:59:13 (EST)
Poster: John
Email: kreilkamp@mindspring.com
To: Mili
Subject: Re: Bizzare!
Message:
I think the fact that all of us are in fact either ex-premies or premies makes us all suspect. We obviously all have major screws loose. Which is not a bad thing, I mean given the situation we are in, we don't know when we will die, we don't know what happens to us when we die, we don't know why we are here, etc. you know, all the unanswerable imponderables. Loved ones can be taken from us at any moment, have been taken from us at any moment. Why shouldn't we all have faith in something or someone who is beyond explanation? My faith is in the absolute goodness of the creator. I don't have anything to base this faith on. I am choosing to believe wholeheartedly that the creator has good things in store for me in the future. I think that M and the entire experience of the wierd organization and living in the ashram was one of the wonderful things in the past which came from the creator to me personally to enjoy and experience and grow from. Now that it's over, for me, life is no less rich or interesting or mysterious.
but I agree this is a most bizarre place.
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Date: Sun, Dec 7, 1997 at 22:00:50 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Mili
Subject: Re: Bizzare!
Message:
What kind of a crazy place is this, anyway?
Sometimes I wonder.
P.S. By the way, Mili, what are YOU doing here!?
Well, for one thing, I was brushing up on my English. You have to admit I speak pretty good English for a Croatian guy, right? Also, I am comparing my own experiences with those of other people. Real life is not all roses, be it in the ashram or otherwise. There are thorns, too. Things were not all that perfect in the premie world, and they are not perfect whether you are a premie or not. My experience has been that Knowledge has made things easier and more clear for me in life.
It is interesting to read sincere accounts of people. But I find it hard to condone someone deliberately spreading lies.
Dear Mili -
I like reading about people's experiences, too, and like JW, I try to take people's personal experiences at face value (in other words, as what they appear to be). I would never say, for example, that you were just deluding yourself by meditating, or something like that. I hope you understand that. I might, however, think that you didn't know the whole truth about some aspects of Maharaji and his organization, and you might think that about me.
Regarding "spreading lies" - you have used that phrase in a number of your posts today. I don't like that phrase, in fact I think it's a pretty ambiguous phrase unless you specify exactly which lies you think are being spread. Otherwise there is an implication that EVERYTHING on this forum is lies, which I find disturbing. I wish you would be more specific when making that accusation. Also, forgive me if I am wrong, but I sometimes think that you accuse people of spreading lies because they have a different opinion of whether something is true than you do. For example, I believe that a lot of the stuff that Mr. Ex has written is true and you obviously do not. The real truth is that neither one of us KNOWS FOR SURE if it's true or not. Deena has corroborated a lot of it, and I believe her too. So I don't consider myself as "spreading lies". I might be "spreading what Mili thinks are lies" but that's different.
Another thing which some of your posts imply is that all the ex-premies think the same things - that I think what David thinks and Jim thinks and Deena thinks and Joe Whalen thinks and Brian thinks and so on. I really like all these people and I agree with much that they say, but I don't agree with every single thing that every ex-premie thinks or feels about premies and GMJ. I'm sure they don't agree with everything that I say on this forum (in fact - I KNOW that Jim doesn't! But I still like him a lot). Sometimes, it seems like you assume that when one ex-premie states a feeling or opinion, we all feel that way. It's just not true - any more than it's true that all the premies have the same feelings or opinions. We are not interchangeable parts here!
Different ex-premies have different reasons for posting on this site. I left GMJ in 1977 and I did not have a really bad experience as a premie. It wasn't so great, but it was better than some of the other things I could have been doing. Truthfully, GMJ is not very important to me anymore, either in a negative or a positive way - I just don't care or think about him much one way or another. I did, however, have a hard time leaving his organization, because I thought I was going to go to hell. I think that there are still some premies who believe this, who may want to leave and are afraid to. That's one of the main reasons I post on the forum. Another reason is because I really like most of the people who post on the forum/newsgroup and have learned a lot from some of them (mostly NOT about GMJ, by the way.)
Regards from Katie
P.S. I've been quite impressed with your command of English - it is extremely good for someone who speaks it as a second language, especially for someone who doesn't live in an English speaking country (I work at a university so have a lot of friends who are non-native-English speakers attending college and graduate school, and you are very fluent as compared to a lot of these people, who are generally quite intelligent and highly educated.)
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Date: Sun, Dec 7, 1997 at 23:35:03 (EST)
Poster: Sir David (to you)
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: Mili
Subject: Re: Bizzare!
Message:
Mili said, "What kind of a crazy place is this, anyway?"
It's called planet Earth.
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Date: Mon, Dec 8, 1997 at 02:12:16 (EST)
Poster: Sir David (again)
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: Mili
Subject: Re: Bizzare!
Message:
You won't find much correct English here Mili - they're all Americans!
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Date: Mon, Dec 8, 1997 at 06:37:38 (EST)
Poster: Brian
Email:
To: Sir David (again)
Subject: Re: Bizzare!
Message:
You won't find much correct English here Mili - they're all Americans!
Now, now... Don't forget that there are Canadians posting here too. Of course, they do speak English even more worser than Americans do, eh?
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Date: Mon, Dec 8, 1997 at 11:40:25 (EST)
Poster: Sir David (to you)
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: Brian
Subject: Re: Bizzare!
Message:
Yes, and you only have to listen to The Spice Girls talking to realise how we Brits all speak perfect English.
____
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Date: Mon, Dec 8, 1997 at 18:45:30 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: Sir David (to you)
Subject: Re: Bizzare!
Message:
Yes, and you only have to listen to The Spice Girls talking to realise how we Brits all speak perfect English.
____
Is it true that Tony Blair used a The Spice Girls song in his election campaign? I heard that he (or his finance minister) said "what I want, what I really, really want (a la Spice Girls) is sustainable growth with low inflation and low unemployment."
If true, he is more like Bill Clinton than I thought!
JW
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Date: Mon, Dec 8, 1997 at 19:23:45 (EST)
Poster: Sir David
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: JW
Subject: Re: Bizzare!
Message:
Our Tony not only used the Spice Girls' songs but he also had them with him on his election campaign on one of the campaign buses. Richard Branson and Sir Paul McCartney also featured promonently in his campaign.
The phrase, "I tell you what I want, what I really really want" became a catch phrase by everybody over here. Naturally politicians cashed in and Gordon Brown and Tony Blair both used it.
Methinks your Bill Clinton has been asking Tony's advice on how he can get Al Gore elected next time, He said as much after their recent meeting.
Incidentally, much of Tony Blair's ideas have come from Australia.
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Date: Mon, Dec 8, 1997 at 19:33:05 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: Sir David
Subject: Re: Bizzare!
Message:
Very interesting. I like The Spice Girls, but I thought they were all thoroughly modern Tories.
Al Gore is currently in Japan saving us all from turning into greenhouse tomatoes. In an attempt to save his presidential prospects, he has, according to today's NYT, saved the global warming conference from disaster. Yeah, right!
By the way, what DOES Tony Blair stand for, anyway? Also, whom did Helen Mirren endorse? I am a HUGE fan of hers!
Joe
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Date: Mon, Dec 8, 1997 at 19:39:02 (EST)
Poster: Sir David
Email:
To: The commoners
Subject: Re: Bizzare!
Message:
Just in case anyone is interested. Richard Branson is just about to attempt to fly round the world non stop in his balloon, get again. I'm taking bets on if he'll make it this time.
Good luck Richard!
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Date: Mon, Dec 8, 1997 at 20:02:38 (EST)
Poster: Sir David
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: Bizzare!
Message:
Hellen Mirren I don't know about. Yes the Spice Girls all said how much they admired Maggie Thatcher but then so did Tony Blair! One of the best endorsements Tony got was from Maggie when she said that she thought Tony would be a good man to lead the country and no danger.
Tony also admires Maggie Thatcher, especially her leadership qualities.
_______________________________________________________Tony's phrase, "Compassion with a hard edge" sums up the guy nicely. He's to the right of John Major and won't stand any nonsense. He's turned the previously left wing Labour party into a centre party, single handed. Both he and his sidekick, Peter Mandelson are public relations wizards.
When Tony Blair won the election it was like the Second Coming, almost. Lots of pictures on TV of a smiling Tony shaking hands with crowds of smiling people in the Spring sunshine to the strains of classical music. I think Bill Clinton was impressed by his panache and style.
Regarding US politics, I always thought Al Gore to be a much smoother operator than Bill. We'll see.
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Date: Tues, Dec 9, 1997 at 04:28:23 (EST)
Poster: CD
Email:
To: Katie
Subject: Re: Bizzare!
Message:
> P.S. By the way, Mili, what are YOU doing here!?
He thought he might get a virtual date with somebody into cartoon elephants.
C'est place tres bizarre! incroyable! amitie!
----------------------------------------
'Stop the teaching of benevolence and get rid of the claim of justice,
Then the people will love each other once more.'
'Reveal simplicity,
Hold to one's original nature,'
from a translation of the Tao Te Ching
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Date: Sun, Dec 7, 1997 at 15:09:46 (EST)
Poster: Deena T
Email: deena@cableregina.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Bliss
Message:
I just read all the posts I missed yesterday, quite alot to digest.
There was one by David Simpkiss that I wanted to comment about by starting this thread.
He wrote about the Bliss he experienced when his meditation spilled into all of his life and not just during practise. I really could relate to being 'breathed'. I was so into what was once known as Holy Name but Maharaji changed to the Third Technique. I too cheated at times because it was my favoite, but not without alot of guilt, so I would do the other techniques for at least the 15 minutes he told us to thinking that he knew best. I too would experience the First Technique or Light without doing it. I never wanted to stop once I did experience that place within, in Holy Name. I loved it. And when it was there through my day I was so fulfilled. Didn't matter what I did, I was gone.
But I wonder how the world viewed us then? Did they stare and shake there heads when we passed by? I wonder how well we functioned and if we were having something happen to us that was healthy then why didn't droves of people follow us back to the Master of this experience? I found that when I was the most blissed out other people seemed to just ignore it. When I was able to articulate the experience because I remembering it, then I attracted many people.
Also, I was in such a state of ecstasy, such a natural high, better than all the drugs I'd experimented with before Knowledge, and yet I was detached from feeling the pain or suffering of others. I felt love, yes. But I didn't feel any suffering myself, even getting bad news, and equally so I didn't feel what others felt. The love I felt seemed to me to be enough but I was so enthralled with the fact that nothing could hurt me. I've only experienced this so completely with one drug before, and that was the one time I shot herion.
Today, I experience a calm within me, an awe of life, love that flows naturally. But I do feel hurt when something happens to me or someone else and I don't find it healthy to want to escape that or be detached from it. I've found I'm learning so much from mine and others emotions.
I really see the whole spiritual so-called reality of separating what is illusion from what is real as a necessary product of dealing with great suffering in the history of mankind. Just read about Kabir's time and you'll know what I mean. Sort of like the shock that occurs in an emergency. It is fascinating that if a person devotes themself to meditation practises that they can have this drug naturally released in their system that protects them from preceived danger. But in the case of what occurs from intense meditation, does it impare the mental functions such as critical thinking?
In David's case it didn't make him wise to the abuse he was subjecting himself to by trusting Maharaji and joining the ashram. It is a state that at times seems to be like being embraced in a 'Grace' that protects from harm. Then how is it that the harm so many ashram premies caused their families was only greeted with smiles. How is it that when premies were approached by other premies in pain, despite their blissful experiences they remained detached and in doing so premies killed themselves or ended up in mental institutes as a result of their cries for help going unheeded?
For me, alot of very human emotions that I now feel are healthy and essential were not important. I had this experience constantly validated by Maharaji when he mocked relationships, marriage, tears, premie's interests and pass times etc. He belittled everyone repeatedly. Only one thing in this life was real. But he contradicted himself constantly too. He'd go on about how he loved watches or airplanes or his children.
The triangle of Knowledge, the student and the Master was always deemed the priority by him. When asked why one needs a master, he would use the analogy, if you want water you need to be below the source. A living Master was essential, and yet his Master was dead and he still experienced the relationship?????
My objection to how he interprets this is how arrogant and condescending he is at times, as if this is the way he carries on the tradition of beating his devotees as he saw his father do when he was Master.
The biggest problem I feel here sometimes is that very few premies posting here have followed Maharaji closely in the past 10 years. By having watched every video released up until 9 months ago, and been to countless events, as well as Knowledge reviews and Practice sessions at these events, I also have current information about how the aspirant process works and how funds are raised to support Maharaji and what he does.
I can verify that most of what is said here is often accurate because of this. Why there is constant accusations of people lying, I can not fathom. Except of course the obvious, that these people are threatened by the possiblity of these facts being true. I'm not speaking here of any knowledge of Maharaji's personal habits. I myself have no first hand info of that. But there are lots of other areas that are covered here. How the organization that he controls now operates and how the aspirant and public events etc. are done. Also the nature of what he teaches based on attending over 450 events, some of them in person and others by watching the video tape of them. He himself has continually proclaimed that the old premies don't understand the power of his message in this form. He mocks them. I did experience Knowledge as if I was present at these events because I took what Maharaji said to heart. The magic that occured was further proof to me that this was beyond understanding. I didn't realize my devotion to what I was doing was the key to my experience. I always attributed everything good that happened to Maharaji.
From speaking with those premies who he keeps close to do his service, it was verified to me that this made him very happy. I was not a once in a while premie in the past 10 years. I was taking every opprotunity to listen and obey who I considered to be worthy of that attention.
I know other devote premies who watched the videos and went to see him even more often than I could afford. But alot of these premies admitted to me that they didn't practise very consistently, if at all. Maharaji constantly mocked this too and tried to make premies see that although he can't force them, what are they doing with this precious gift he'd given them. Sometimes he'd even hint they were wasting his time.
A while back an ex-premie shared intense meditation effort spilling into their life also but went on to tell the story of deep depression that followed this period in his life. David's experience too disappeared but maybe that had nothing to do with the ashram because my husband recalls many times awful things occurred when he was lacking sleep and overworked and yet he was completely blissed out in his meditations. I can't help wondering if the depression that follows a period of intensity isn't a reaction to a mental breakdown that occured during the intense meditations.
Being 'bushed' or having 'cabin fever' living alone in remote situations is common. The mentally stable person can still experience this. Why isolation causes this mental breakdown where altered states occur I don't know. But it makes me wonder again about my chemical cocktail theory. Definately the group intensity at events before Maharaji even steps out on the stage affects people. We are so vunerable to suggestion that advertising works and so does thought reform. We are even more deeply affected by isolation of a physical nature when we withdraw our senses and turn our attention to what? Some interpret it as the 'Divine' others call self-hypnosis.
Not meaning to start a debate here. Maharaji's tradition he inherited and chooses to practise in a modified form is one of worship, that can not be denied whether he lives a normal life in suits and flying an airplane. There are lots of speakers of the 'Spirit' and they do not have the Guru relationship with those who choose to listen to them.
I write here my sincere feelings to share with those who find it interesting. Not to argue.
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Date: Sun, Dec 7, 1997 at 15:34:57 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email:
To: Deena T
Subject: Re: Bliss
Message:
I write here my sincere feelings to share with those who find it interesting. Not to argue.
Not only your feelings, but also your theories and speculations, Deena. Could it be that you do not wish to argue because you are afraid the theories will not hold out?
Don't worry - I am not in a mood for another round of goat-skinning today.
- Mili
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Date: Mon, Dec 8, 1997 at 01:12:55 (EST)
Poster: David Simpkiss
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: Deena T
Subject: Re: Bliss
Message:
A very interesting post Deena although I must correct one thing. I was a naive twenty year old when I moved into the ashram. I didn't even understand what celibacy meant or all that stuff. I gave up my home by the sea plus my girlfriend to join what I believed was the true path.
Little did I realise that my experience of the knowledge would not be understood by the majority of the ashram premies I would encounter. I was mocked for being so much into the word. I was critisised for doing too much meditation and we all worked so hard that there was little time for meditation anyway.
Sometimes we worked at our jobs during the day and then took all night jobs in a night bakery so we would have the money to go and see Maharaji. All this is not conducive to meditation. I felt very much alone in the ashram. I did not fit in to the scene at all.
Had I realised what that ashram trip would have ended up like I would have stayed in my seaside home, got married and had about nine children by now, instead of just three!
You know, it took me until 1986 to begin to get myself together. Not because of some after effects of meditation but because I had been "trained" to just be a premie and not bother with the world. It took until 1986 to clear that conditioning and think for myself again and make my way in the world. I think that is the dangerous thing - neglecting our earthly existence, for some mistaken devotion. I had a traffic fine to pay in 1980. But in satsang we were asked to give as much money as possible for Maharaji's jet. So I neglected to pay my traffic fine and gave all my money to his jet. The result - I ended up in prison for non payment of the fine. I should have known better but this was what misguided devotion had made me. Your perspective is always welcome.
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Date: Mon, Dec 8, 1997 at 12:32:54 (EST)
Poster: Deena
Email: deena@cableregina.com
To: David Simpkiss
Subject: Re: Bliss
Message:
A very interesting post Deena although I must correct one thing. I was a naive twenty year old when I moved into the ashram. I didn't even understand what celibacy meant or all that stuff. I gave up my home by the sea plus my girlfriend to join what I believed was the true path.
Little did I realise that my experience of the knowledge would not be understood by the majority of the ashram premies I would encounter. I was mocked for being so much into the word. I was critisised for doing too much meditation and we all worked so hard that there was little time for meditation anyway.
Sometimes we worked at our jobs during the day and then took all night jobs in a night bakery so we would have the money to go and see Maharaji. All this is not conducive to meditation. I felt very much alone in the ashram. I did not fit in to the scene at all.
Had I realised what that ashram trip would have ended up like I would have stayed in my seaside home, got married and had about nine children by now, instead of just three!
You know, it took me until 1986 to begin to get myself together. Not because of some after effects of meditation but because I had been 'trained' to just be a premie and not bother with the world. It took until 1986 to clear that conditioning and think for myself again and make my way in the world. I think that is the dangerous thing - neglecting our earthly existence, for some mistaken devotion. I had a traffic fine to pay in 1980. But in satsang we were asked to give as much money as possible for Maharaji's jet. So I neglected to pay my traffic fine and gave all my money to his jet. The result - I ended up in prison for non payment of the fine. I should have known better but this was what misguided devotion had made me. Your perspective is always welcome.
Thanks David for sharing that, sorry I misunderstood. I felt so sad reading how you gave up so much not knowing what was really happening. I sent my Journey in and there is a part in it where I am 19 and seem clueless to what is happening as well, though it wasn't about joining the ashram, I could relate.
After I wrote what I did I was concerned that I got so carried away sharing that I may have not have been sensitive to your post. You are very patient with me and I appreciate it.
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Date: Sun, Dec 7, 1997 at 03:19:16 (EST)
Poster: HRH's Subject
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: Everyone
Subject: Good morning America
Message:
ON HEAVEN'S TIDE
I saw the sun upon your face
One cold and bracing winter's day
And as I looked into your eyes
I saw the light inside you say,
"Shine on, shine on
'Neath clouds of rain,
Through hail and biting wind and pain.
The child within the sun inside
Will always ride on Heaven's tide."
(David Simpkiss. 20/7/96)
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Date: Sun, Dec 7, 1997 at 09:52:12 (EST)
Poster: Mike
Email: BlissBunnyCentral.com
To: HRH's Subject
Subject: Re: Good morning America
Message:
ON HEAVEN'S TIDE
I saw the sun upon your face
One cold and bracing winter's day
And as I looked into your eyes
I saw the light inside you say,
'Shine on, shine on
'Neath clouds of rain,
Through hail and biting wind and pain.
The child within the sun inside
Will always ride on Heaven's tide.'
(David Simpkiss. 20/7/96)
Thank you for that... it's perfect!
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Date: Sun, Dec 7, 1997 at 10:10:30 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email:
To: Mike
Subject: Re: Good morning America
Message:
ON HEAVEN'S TIDE
I saw the sun upon your face
One cold and bracing winter's day
And as I looked into your eyes
I saw the light inside you say,
'Shine on, shine on
'Neath clouds of rain,
Through hail and biting wind and pain.
The child within the sun inside
Will always ride on Heaven's tide.'
(David Simpkiss. 20/7/96)
Thank you for that... it's perfect!
Beautiful. Really cool.
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Date: Sun, Dec 7, 1997 at 01:50:44 (EST)
Poster: David Simpkiss
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: Everyone
Subject: Katie's query on Word
Message:
Some time last week Katie wrote:
"I got knowledge in 1972. We were told that we should try to meditate on the Word (Holy Name) constantly - as Mili says. I'd be really interested to know if this is NOT taught in knowledge sessions any more -especially now that Maharaji is personally supervising all the
knowledge sessions."
Nobody seemed to take this up but I'd like to relate my own experience because it is one which I've not heard anyone else talk about. It has also been the cause of much confusion for me for many years since my experience of meditation seems to contrast with what Maharaji prescribes and what most premies talk about.
My experience has been that the "knowlege" cannot be experienced or realised by just putting an hour of meditation on four techniques in every day. To some extent I realised the knowledge back in the seventies before (mistakingly) moving into an ashram; which helped me to lose my experience!
I have experienced that the knowledge is like submerging myself into a bath and staying there for most of the time. If I get out of the bath I don't completely dry out by the time I'm in it again. That bath was for me, the word or the word technique. And yet it would be farcical to say that the bath is the technique, rather the technique took me to a place beyond the technique, to where I was submerged.
This knowledge realisation happened quite by chance. I was working long hours in a hospital and consequently missed most of the evening satsang programs. I was under pressure timewise so when I got back to the premie house in the evening, since everyone was at satsang I just used to get under my blanket and meditate till they came back.
Since I was partially freaked out by the constant work pressure I couldn't be bothered to attempt any techniques but the word. If you've ever needed to escape from pressure you'll know what I mean. Gradually these evening sessions of meditating on the word got deeper and deeper. They were so relaxing that they began to replace my sleep and soon I was meditating two to four hours per day on the word sitting down.
And then I found that during the day at work I just could not stop meditating on it. It was like it was pulling me in constantly with no effort on my part. Constant meditation was not an effort but a reality. I got deep into the word during the day at the hospital and when I got home I sat down and got even deeper into it!
And it was so pleasurable that at times I was in absolute ecstacy walking around the hospital doing my duties. Day after day this experience grew in its depth and pleasure. I changed jobs and moved from London to the seaside to work in a hotel. I attended even less satsang and grew ever more distant from the DLM. I didn't care because there was something pulling me in, ever deeper into an experience that was sheer heaven.
I remember one day in the hotel, while I was serving the customers. that I just could not believe the ecstacy I was in. This was total bliss of a magnitude I'd never imagined. Several realisations had come by now. I realised that the word was my true nature which was joy and happiness to a wild degree. I realised that meditation is not something that one just did sitting down but rather a state of consciousness that actually got better when doing the ordinary day to day things. I would get totally blissed out just talking to someone about the weather!
I was realising my own soul, all through meditation on the word. It seems so dry doesn't it, "meditation" or "word". But one of the points of writing all of this is that my realisation was that it could only be by submerging into the word that this could happen. Disregarding nectar for the moment, it would be impossible to practise the light or music techniques while working in a hospital or hotel. And my experience was that it was only the word that was capable of pulling me in with such force and doing all of this. The word was pulling me in like a magnet to the point that I found it impossible to concentrate on the L & M techniques. OK I saw light and heard music but that was merely as a result of my meditation on the word and not through doing those techniques (which I didn't do).
This alone, conflicts with what Maharaji prescribes in his knowledge sessions. I just cannot meditate as he advises. I also don't see how it's possible.
I also realised that all this merging with the word required very little effort. Once I had gotten attatched to the word, nobody had to persuade me to remember it. I couldn't forget it and didn't want to. It was always there and it was a pleasure to relax into. Something far beyond the technique. And by now it was remembering me and meditation had become a reversed thing. The word was meditating me.
Unfortunately this experience prompted me to give my life to Maharaji and move into the ashram. I gradually lost the experience because of all the endless work and satsang and heavy trips, lack of sleep etc. but that's another story.
It was years later that I found what was to be experienced from the nectar technique. After the whole satsang and premie thing finished in the early eighties, being somewhat disillusioned and out of control, I got addicted to a drug. For several years I fought this addiction and failed. Eventually I decided to quit, once again, but this time try and substitute the nectar for the drug in order to make the withdrawl bearable.
After a few days of constantly doing the full nectar technique it began to come, like a river. I was doing no formal meditation at all and yet I was experiencing nectar like I'd never experienced it before. Just out of this world. Better than acid or magic mushrooms, I was knocked out by the pleasure of it. And still am. And I can do it anywhere!
Thank you for those of you patient enough to have read all of this. Can anyone relate to it? Much of my confusion about the meditation has come about because it contrasts so much with what Maharaji has said or advised. It is an unfortunate thing but Maharaji has actually put me off meditation. And this has been going on for some time now. Perhaps Maharaji means well but I just don't seem to fit into his scheme of things and never have. God knows I did try!
So finally Katie, I know you remember that old command with some foreboding, "Constantly meditate and remember holy name". It should not be a "command" because that's all the wrong way round. In the times in my life when the meditation came constantly, it was a pleasure.
David.
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Date: Sun, Dec 7, 1997 at 09:46:25 (EST)
Poster: Mike
Email: BlissBunnyCentral.com
To: David Simpkiss
Subject: Re: Katie's query on Word
Message:
Of course you know I was going to answer this Sir David. How can we avoid being emersed and drunk in god consciousness. It's like being a little bit pregnant. We try drugs, sex, religons, ideologies with little to no real satisfaction. Your dialog sounds alot like arjuna after he realized what knowledge really was... the source of his bliss and happiness. He, in a sence asked the same question that you did... how can I do all these other things and do this knowledge at the same time? Or more app'd, "how can I focus on Holy Name for only 15 minutes only while sitting???"
Krishna said in a sence... just do whatever you have to do and remember your true name constantly.
There are things and events in our lives that will make us really ponder what is real and what is not. Events that are so powerful that it will shake you down to your core and ask :"am I really just kidding myself or what?"
In my experience... these inner aspects of my lord are the only things that have stayed constant through it all. All light now reminds me of the light within my singular eye. All sound reminds me of the music within. All things that I touch and taste remind me of the Nectar (kinda like... taste like chicken... sorry I had to). And, all beings remind me of my inner lover... the Holy Name. It's a point of perspective I guess. Whatever your orientation is... you'll experience things and understand things from that perspective.
I find it interesting that few of us have used the term Holy Name anymore. Something that is special and above it all to me is Holy.
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Date: Sun, Dec 7, 1997 at 11:28:32 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: David and all
Subject: Re: Katie's query on Word
Message:
Dear David, and all,
Here is what Bobby wrote in answer to my question, in case people didn't see it (we wrote these things yesterday, actually, but we are writing pretty far down in the depths of the Forum).
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Date: Sun, Dec 7, 1997 at 11:48:05 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email:
To: all
Subject: Re: Katie's query on Word - Bobby's post (Re: Katie's query on Word)
Message:
Dear David, and all,
Here is what Bobby wrote in answer to my question, in case people didn't see it (we wrote these things yesterday, actually, but we are writing pretty far down in the depths of the Forum).
Bobby's post:
As far as I remember, from the knowledge review from Maharaji himself around 1985, we were not to meditate on 'the name' while doing anything else. We were only to meditate for an hour in the morning and an hour at night
with 15 minutes for each technique. Maharaji was very explicit, and wanted these techniques to be done exactly as he said.
Everything I have read from the ex-initiator is consonant with what I know about Maharaji and the organization. Admitedly I don't know much about the
modern EV financial picture, but I have no reason to doubt ex-initiator's word.
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Date: Sun, Dec 7, 1997 at 12:17:48 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email:
To: Katie
Subject: Re: Katie's query on Word - Bobby's post (Re: Katie's query on Word)
Message:
Dear David, and all,
Here is what Bobby wrote in answer to my question, in case people didn't see it (we wrote these things yesterday, actually, but we are writing pretty far down in the depths of the Forum).
Bobby's post:
As far as I remember, from the knowledge review from Maharaji himself around 1985, we were not to meditate on 'the name' while doing anything else. We were only to meditate for an hour in the morning and an hour at night
with 15 minutes for each technique. Maharaji was very explicit, and wanted these techniques to be done exactly as he said.
Everything I have read from the ex-initiator is consonant with what I know about Maharaji and the organization. Admitedly I don't know much about the
modern EV financial picture, but I have no reason to doubt ex-initiator's word.
Well, maybe this is where Bobby and I have our little differences. I would never take any such accusations at face value, without having access to the documents or proof that he bases his statements on. And this schmuck obviously is bluffing, or hasn't got the balls to corroborate his claims.
I thoroughly dislike people who take it upon themselves to judge and pass comments on someone else's private life, usually fueling it with more than an ample speculation and distortion of facts. Self-appointed moralists who think they can write the book on what is 'normal' have always been repugnant to me. Also, this guy supposedly 'initiator', more and more seems to me like someone who probably just copied the description of the techniques from an initiator's handbook. There is much more to meditation than just the techniques, or sneaking every now and then to have a glance at your wristwatch while you are doing them.
Maybe he is Jim posing as a mahatma, after all.
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Date: Sun, Dec 7, 1997 at 13:23:58 (EST)
Poster: Sir David
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: Mili
Subject: Re: Katie's query on Word - Bobby's post (Re: Katie's query on Word)
Message:
Mili, I stand in the middle not knowing quite what to think. You are very sincere and I applaud your outspoken way of writing. No bullshit, I want to get to the truth of the matter too. I have never publicly renounced Maharaji and I simply do not know the truth of all this. Maybe I am like a voice crying out in the wilderness. I love love, I love honesty and sincerety and I pray that in time, all of this will become clear to me.
¼°
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Date: Sun, Dec 7, 1997 at 13:43:31 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Sir David
Subject: Re: Katie's query on Word - Bobby's post (Re: Katie's query on Word)
Message:
Dear David (and Mili et. al.) -
Part of the truth is that the ex-instructor really IS an ex-instructor. Now whether you choose to believe what he says or not is up to you, but he's not "some guy who stole an instructor's manual", and he's not Jim.
I certainly have no problem with people who have had positive experiences with Maharaji and knowledge continuing to follow M and practice knowledge. This includes Mili, op, Annie, Chris, and whoever else. The problem that I see is that there are some people who have not had a positive experience being one of Maharaji's followers, and I (and others on this newsgroup) would like to provide support for these people. I firmly believe that it is totally OK for people to NOT practice knowledge and NOT follow Maharaji if they really don't want to, and I'd like to make it clear that they won't go to hell if they quit being a devotee of Maharaji's.
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Date: Sun, Dec 7, 1997 at 14:21:37 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email:
To: Katie
Subject: Re: Katie's query on Word - Bobby's post (Re: Katie's query on Word)
Message:
Dear David (and Mili et. al.) -
Part of the truth is that the ex-instructor really IS an ex-instructor. Now whether you choose to believe what he says or not is up to you, but he's not 'some guy who stole an instructor's manual', and he's not Jim.
I certainly have no problem with people who have had positive experiences with Maharaji and knowledge continuing to follow M and practice knowledge. This includes Mili, op, Annie, Chris, and whoever else. The problem that I see is that there are some people who have not had a positive experience being one of Maharaji's followers, and I (and others on this newsgroup) would like to provide support for these people. I firmly believe that it is totally OK for people to NOT practice knowledge and NOT follow Maharaji if they really don't want to, and I'd like to make it clear that they won't go to hell if they quit being a devotee of Maharaji's.
Katie, you know that the best way to have someone swallow a lie is to dress it up with a little truth. That's what Mr. Ex-Mahatma is doing, and you seem to engage in it to extent, whether consciously or not, I don't know.
The thing is, it's also OK for some people not do indulge in what they think is folloowing Maharaji. I believe the whole problem of the difficulty or frustration some of these people are experiencing comes form going at their concept of the whole thing, that they have accumulated themselves, or was dumped on them by some 'realised soul' who was apparently higher up on the spiritual ladder. I am glad that Maharaji has tried to get these spiritual experts out of the way to let clarity manifest. Now these ex-mahatmas come over to the Ex-premie page to try to assert their ego and spit on their former Master.
Anyway, I sincerely believe it's good to stand back and let yourself have your own space and reach your own conclusions. But, in order to do that you need not buy into further lies, insinuations and misinterpretations, that are so readily available here. I mean, there are peoople here who almost deliberately try to obscure the truth about Maharaji and substitute some really bizzare stuff instead, regardless of the facts. Why are they doing it, I don't know - could it be Rush Limbaugh is at work here, or the ghost of John Birch? But some real dirty dealing under the table is at work here, that's for sure.
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Date: Sun, Dec 7, 1997 at 14:35:35 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email:
To: Katie
Subject: Re: Katie's query on Word - Bobby's post (Re: Katie's query on Word)
Message:
Dear David (and Mili et. al.) -
Part of the truth is that the ex-instructor really IS an ex-instructor. Now whether you choose to believe what he says or not is up to you, but he's not 'some guy who stole an instructor's manual', and he's not Jim.
I certainly have no problem with people who have had positive experiences with Maharaji and knowledge continuing to follow M and practice knowledge. This includes Mili, op, Annie, Chris, and whoever else. The problem that I see is that there are some people who have not had a positive experience being one of Maharaji's followers, and I (and others on this newsgroup) would like to provide support for these people. I firmly believe that it is totally OK for people to NOT practice knowledge and NOT follow Maharaji if they really don't want to, and I'd like to make it clear that they won't go to hell if they quit being a devotee of Maharaji's.
Of course it's also O.K. for people not to follow Maharaji, especially if that just involves their imagination of what that should be. And of course, some people are naturally, by their temperament, just not interested in meditation. But there is no necessity to spread lies about the Knowledge and Maharaji. It is no dangerous cult, and you know it.
The thing is, you have to fight untruth with truth, and not with lies and fabrications. And it IS essential to think for yourself and not be naive. People have weird motives and are rarely impartial with the things they say and do. Don't you think Hitler wasn't convinced that he was doing what he was doing for a very good cause? Well, that's what I see some of these do-gooders here do.
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Date: Sun, Dec 7, 1997 at 15:01:24 (EST)
Poster: Mili to Katie
Email:
To: Katie
Subject: Re: Katie's query on Word - Bobby's post (Re: Katie's query on Word)
Message:
You know, if you want to know what makes me tick, it's this - I am simply someone who has lived a nice, completely normal, happy life for years, have evrything I want - a comfortable apartment, a stamp collection, jazz CDs, a job that I like. I've had girlfriends, casually and seriously, too. I love nature. People like me, they feel I pose no harm to anyone.
Then I run into a webpage on the Internet that stigmatizes me as a member of a dangerous cult, belittles my intelligence, and tries to make me feel guilty about it, just because it irritates someone's conception of 'the right way things should be'. A 'member of a dangerous cult', because I do a simple meditation that is used in pre-natal classes and (perhaps) see my meditation teacher once a year.
How would you feel then? You know, I am overreacting in my posts at times, and I am sorry if I have offended someone, but what would be your reaction to such blatant lies, intolerance and psychological persecution? All in the name of what - the good of society? That's a totalitarian society then, if you ask me.
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Date: Sun, Dec 7, 1997 at 22:22:57 (EST)
Poster: Katie to Mili
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Mili to Katie
Subject: Re: Katie's query on Word - Bobby's post (Re: Katie's query on Word)
Message:
Dear Mili - I'm sorry if you feel that the web page stigmatizes you as a member of a dangerous cult, belittles your intelligence, and tries to make you feel guilty about it, just because it irritates someone's conception of 'the right way things should be'. That would make me angry too, but I don't think that that is the intent or purpose of the web site.
I personally don't think Maharaji's organization is a "dangerous cult" for everyone involved. As I've said before, it HAS been destructive and dangerous for some people, but that doesn't mean it's destructive for everyone. Obviously, it's been a good experience for you. I also don't think you, or anyone else, is stupid for following Maharaji, and I'm not sure that it says that on the web site either. And I don't think that the web site promotes 'the right way things should be' (or as Rush calls it "the way it oughtta be". Yuck!)
Please try and understand that the web site run by ex-premies and therefore the opinions expressed on it are (mostly) just not going to make premies very happy. I really wish the premies could have a web site of their own again. At least David lets premies post opposing e-mails on the ex-premie site - that's one of the many ways that the site is NOT totalitarian.
The content of your posts has upset me a few times (as you know) and I appreciate your apology. I do wish, as I have said above, that you would consider us ex-premie as individuals and realize that we don't all think and feel the same things.
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Date: Sun, Dec 7, 1997 at 23:14:39 (EST)
Poster: Ministry of Silly Walks
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: Mike
Subject: Re: Katie's query on Word
Message:
Mike sayeth, "All things that I touch and taste remind me of the Nectar
(kinda like... taste like chicken... sorry I had to)."
Get thee behind me Satan! Thou dost corrupt thine vegitarians yonder in a vile and abominable way!
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Date: Mon, Dec 8, 1997 at 00:32:50 (EST)
Poster: Stop dateing
Email: b
To: Mahatma Mili
Subject: and start mating (Re: Katie's query on Word)
Message:
Hi Mili,
I just got a call from a local guy who called another guy who just got back from the la event.
Of course I couldn't get any good sentences out of the guy but that has always been the case.
However, I did hear one. He felt that the one day events
are not enough and so he is going to do a lot of 3 day
events. In the states there will be 4 or 5 next year.
Maybe your area of the world will get one soon.
Thought you might like to know that.
Anyway, bachelor boy, are you guilty of what some of my friends are? They torture one women after another
by dating them and getting the women all serious and
then, in typical guy fashion, leave and have no idea of the
wreckage they just left behind. Most of my single guy
freinds that are around forty and beyond are selfish
and frankly coldhearted in their dealings with women.
They are great evolved guys, and a few of them are premies,
but they just won't accept the other person and say ok.
They expect some form of perfection.
I make no claim that maharaji is the cause.
But the worst offenders I know are my premie friends.
Face it, premie guys can give a women lots of eye
contact and can listen well and intently.
We have had lots of practice listening.
And the women are starved for some guy to show interest
and to give them a solid commitment in this scary world.
Expecially YOUR world. And you have the international
flair, and education, and resources and connections to
make a women a good partner. Why bring them into your
world if you are not really seriously looking for a partner?
Look at Annie, I would marry her in a second.
And yet over here, there are more women than men, and a lot
of the guys are just not in the mood for a commitment to
one partner no matter what. Over here, there are so many
really fine available single women and mothers it's amazing.
I hope your society is better in this area.
The divorce rate is something like 60% in this richest of
all nations.
I blame it on the guy's. Sure, women um, well, er,how do
you put it? Fluctuate?
But they are more sensitive and in their design, they
call for something out of us that we are not easily
brought to. So we split. Sorry it's that pesky
promise keeper dogma getting to me.
But I agree with it.
You might marry someone who needs some evolving that you
weren't aware of, but that is thier situation too.
They married a guy that needs to evolve too.
Don't let any more women cry after they approached you with thier heart.
Sorry, I give this rap at least once a month.
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Date: Mon, Dec 8, 1997 at 18:17:28 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email: whalenj@fbm.com
To: David Simpkiss
Subject: Re: Katie's query on Word
Message:
Nobody seemed to take this up but I'd like to relate my own experience because it is one which I've not heard anyone else talk about. It has also been the cause of much confusion for me for many years since my experience of meditation seems to contrast with what Maharaji prescribes and what most premies talk about.
If you've ever needed to escape from pressure you'll know what I mean. Gradually these evening sessions of meditating on the word got deeper and deeper. They were so relaxing that they began to replace my sleep and soon I was meditating two to four hours per day on the word sitting down.
And then I found that during the day at work I just could not stop meditating on it. It was like it was pulling me in constantly with no effort on my part. Constant meditation was not an effort but a reality. I got deep into the word during the day at the hospital and when I got home I sat down and got even deeper into it!
And it was so pleasurable that at times I was in absolute ecstacy walking around the hospital doing my duties. Day after day this experience grew in its depth and pleasure. I changed jobs and moved from London to the seaside to work in a hotel. I attended even less satsang and grew ever more distant from the DLM. I didn't care because there was something pulling me in, ever deeper into an experience that was sheer heaven.
I realised that the word was my true nature which was joy and happiness to a wild degree. I realised that meditation is not something that one just did sitting down but rather a state of consciousness that actually got better when doing the ordinary day to day things. I would get totally blissed out just talking to someone about the weather!
This alone, conflicts with what Maharaji prescribes in his knowledge sessions. I just cannot meditate as he advises. I also don't see how it's possible.
Unfortunately this experience prompted me to give my life to Maharaji and move into the ashram. I gradually lost the experience because of all the endless work and satsang and heavy trips, lack of sleep etc. but that's another story.
Thank you for those of you patient enough to have read all of this. Can anyone relate to it? Much of my confusion about the meditation has come about because it contrasts so much with what Maharaji has said or advised. It is an unfortunate thing but Maharaji has actually put me off meditation. And this has been going on for some time now. Perhaps Maharaji means well but I just don't seem to fit into his scheme of things and never have. God knows I did try!
So finally Katie, I know you remember that old command with some foreboding, 'Constantly meditate and remember holy name'. It should not be a 'command' because that's all the wrong way round. In the times in my life when the meditation came constantly, it was a pleasure.
David.
Let me try to make a comment here. First, I practiced knowledge for 10 years, but, despite endless trying and endless doing the technique, I never experienced anything approaching what I would say is "nectar." I also have one of those tongues that has a large tendon that made it hard for me to stick my tongue back down my throat. I spent hours stretching it (at the suggestion of initiators) and even considered cutting it with a razor blade once, but I never did.
Holy Name was another story. I had deep and profound experiences of "holy name" both in sitting meditation and while walking around. By the way, it was definitely Maharaji's teaching to meditate constantly and for years I tried to do that. Whenever I remembered, I tried to return to "holy name." I also walked around ecstatic for periods of time when I meditated on holy name.
But I also understand that holy name is just a technique to get your mind to slow down, and if you concentrate and do it enough, you can get your mind to slow way, way down. When this happened, for me, I experienced a kind of ecstacy, or at least a feeling of profound well-being. That was because I had slowed down enough to experience "life," which, by and large, is a pretty nice and wonderful thing.
But there are other things that can slow your mind down, and that kind of meditation is not done without cost. Also, after awhile, that kind of "ecstacy" became, and I know this will sound jaded, boring. I found that "devotion" was a much more powerful drug for me than holy name ever was. And Maharaji, after aboiut 1977, hardly even talked about meditation anymore and made it clear that what he was into was NOT a path of meditation, but a path of devotion and that the experience of devotion was much greater than the experience of meditation. I mean you can have ecstatic experiences in meditation, but for me it wasn't enough, and there was M demanding surrender and total dedication as the TRUE path he was offering.
But the practice of "devotion" has much, much greater costs associated with it than the practice of meditation. It requires you to lose yourself, to surrender yourself, to lose yourself entirely and dedicate all your being to the object of your devotion, Guru Maharaj Ji. And, ultimately, I found out that he wasn't worthy of my devotion, which makes you tend to feel you have wasted a portion of your life trying to do that and leaves you with a profound feeling of having been ripped off.
So, I agree that if you meditate on your breath you can have some nice experiences. If you devote yourself to another human being, especially if you believe that human being is god, you can also have some nice experiences, like when you kiss that person's feet. But in the case of meditation you are experiencing the effects of slowing your mind down, and that's nice, and in the case of devotion, you are experiencing the high you get from your own strong faith and belief in the power of another person. But in both cases there are real costs involved and in both cases the results are limited. The problem I see is that, in the past 10 years or so, M is deceptively saying that he is offering a path of meditation (as described in aspirant programs and in the general packaging of who he is)when he is really pusching a path of devotion (evidenced by his asking for money and having people kiss his feet.)
Joe
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Date: Tues, Dec 9, 1997 at 01:04:00 (EST)
Poster: More on the program
Email: bb
To: mahamili
Subject: Mili (Re: Katie's query on Word)
Message:
First, about the dateing subject
excuse me mili,
I usually discuss that subject in private.
But I had just gotten two calls from one of the culprits
this weekend and it was a fresh subject.
I got like this because I know most of the girls that
end up dateing these guys and get the exalted 'girlfriend'
title. I have gotten to the point that I warn each girl
that starts to go out with a couple of those guys.
Because I end up getting phone calls from the devastated
women after the damage has been done.
Different guys at work get this conversation because of
comments that they make or things they do.
I don't know your story and I didn't intend to comment
on that subject to you. certainly it's a complex
part of life and it's hard not to cause suffering in life.
Anyway, in LA, after each speech, it would be written down,
edited, and printed up and handed out at the start of the next speech.
He made numerous jokes, some dirty, and said 98 was basically for the us and europe.
perhaps more in a couple days.
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Date: Sat, Dec 6, 1997 at 15:50:54 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Another Nice Link
Message:
Here is another one because YOU - ASKED - FOR - IT !!!
:=)
- Mili
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Date: Sun, Dec 7, 1997 at 01:05:41 (EST)
Poster: desperately
Email: bb
To: sahib
Subject: sikhing some clarity (Re: Another Nice Link)
Message:
I had wanted to look around the book guru granth sahib
again, thanks for the lead in.
In 77 I moved into a Sikh house. They had an empty room on
the third floor and I rented it. They had a larger ashram nearby and the premie house was across the street.
During the time I was there I learned the secrets of the Sikhs.
Actually Maharaji is a sikh. now he would object to that,
but sikh's consider themselves brahmins, which is the top
in the caste system, and one of thier signiture marks
is the name-singh-. Like prem pal singh rawat.
Which he never gave up.
Anyway, when you read the book, see if you don't notice that
even though it seems like they mean -word- like you think
of it, they don't. The word is a mantra.
Here's how it's done.
Sit in lotus, hands on knees,chant these four syllables;
sa-ta-na-ma. while doing that, move your thumb and touch
your first finger when you do sa, your next finger when you
do ta, ect, and thumb to pinky finger and chant,ma.
Start out loud for a few minutes, then quieter and quieter,
until you are repeating it in your head, then let go of it
for a moment, then start up again in your head, then again
through your mouth. Total of twenty minutes and you are done.
Of course now it's time for all those postures.
Here is the great promise;
If you wear the white clothes from head to toe,
put a dagger in your turban(out of sight),
wear the belt, do the mantra,
do the postures,
and maybe something else I fergit,
THEN, after two years ---
you will see the unseeable, and know the unknowable.
Of course if you don't, it was your fault.
Good ole human add on's. It went from referring to a true name, sat nam in hindi, to sa ta na ma and by the way,
there are PAGES on pages of explanation on what sa means,
what ta means, ect.ect.
Thank you Yogi Bhajan
AND, you are lets say inspired/required to go to the
'golden temple' in india once during your life.
While you are there waiting for the holy experience,
they -if you are blessed with good timing and connections,
allowed to scrub the empty moat around the golden temple.
It's empty because they drained the water into the ganges
and you scrub the metal or tile moat and they refill it
with 'fresh' ganges water.(an oxymoron).
They do some ceremonies on it and wala! It's now nectar!
The very nectar that nanak was referring to in the book!
Of course this moat is contained within another massive temple surrounding it so the unwashed masses of
lower caste folks can't even see it.
This is the miracle of man and god in action.
If there is something real at the core of it, in 5 minutes
it's confused. And you are left with another god awful religion. I thought maharaji was here as lord to do
away with all that. But honest to god maharaji DID
actively discourage people from feeling the thing all day long. I can site numerous examples. In 95/96 he was making
some headway in recognising that as maybe a good idea.
I'll see the amaroo video, but from what I hear, the evidence of a consistent connection isn't there yet.
and beyond that, there is the issue of how does he view
others. THAT needs altering, and how to view the power,
and what is the nature of the parameters of sanity.
Obviously there are some standards somebody has set, and
when I exceed them I get some form of consequence.
Desires DO come with a nature of thier own, we get a
response from life which is the built in help system.
I think the system was designed with the hearts point of
view in mind. I get red flags of different sorts if I
get to into desires to much to wake up my mind.
I think it is the steering mechanism of the consience.
DNA is the power's automatic system to build a creation.
(given the elements and a favorable location), well that
same power has an automatic system for hopefully
influencing all the free-willed parts of itself in human bodies. A beautiful feeling and careing seem to underly
the powers' motivation. And it doesn't care if you
blabber on like some of the writers of the sikh book or not.
I found on one page where the writer (not nanak) wrote
about the lepers as the unclean low ones despised and
condemned by god(not exactly his words but it's the gist).
Once someone sets the viewpoint on god, it's easy for hundreds of next guys to elaborate and build on that viewpoint. Adding all kinds of deviant stuff that has
centuries of consequences.
I thought maharaji was going to change all that.
Well, in one way, given time, I mean centuries, who knows how it will be seen.
Look at mary, in the words of mark, mary and jesus' brothers
(yes, he had brothers, it's in all the translations of the bible), came to see him and he didn't go to see them, and he said 'THESE(the ones at his program at that moment), are my mother and brothers.'
Even though she did not hang around jesus at all during
his three years, just a little, In two years the pope is
going to issue a proclamation that SHE is
co-redeemer, an equal co-mediatrix to god the father.
Classic evolving religious confusion.
Pray to mary today! Beat the millenial rush.
A warrior usually means someone who is ruled by a flag or
a game. And is a sucker for other mens' confusion.
If you want to put an adjetive on mili, try something else.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Sun, Dec 7, 1997 at 11:35:26 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: bill
Subject: Re: sikhing some clarity (Re: Another Nice Link)
Message:
A warrior usually means someone who is ruled by a flag or
a game. And is a sucker for other mens' confusion.
If you want to put an adjetive on mili, try something else.
Hi Bill - the dictionary says a warrior is "one engaged in battle", which is what I meant. Not an insult. I'm not sure WHERE you got your definition!
Regards,
Katie
P.S. Do you know if jesus/yeshua washed his disciple's feet? Maybe I'm confused, but I seem to recall that he did. We're not Christians around here so I can't check it out.
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Date: Sun, Dec 7, 1997 at 19:48:40 (EST)
Poster: Someone else
Email:
To: Katie
Subject: Re: sikhing some clarity (Re: Another Nice Link)
Message:
According to the Bible, Jesus did wash His disciple's feet.
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Date: Mon, Dec 8, 1997 at 01:12:47 (EST)
Poster: She Warrior
Email: b
To: the formidable K
Subject: Kate the Great (Re: Another Nice Link)
Message:
I got my definition from an old Grace Slick song.
Back when she was a fighter. Sunfighter to be exact.
I didn't think of it as an insult to him, but the
heroic angle of a warrior is usually used to describe
the lowly saps that fought to the death over some cause
that didn't warrent a fight and it was caused by guys
that sat back and watched the saps die for the cause.
How many times I have heard and seen written that-
'History will never forget your deeds done today!'
Which is fitting empty applause to suckers/somebodies
child/a parent/a rare human life chance/young/tricked/
victim/but heroic warrior.
Beware the differences that blind us to our unity.
And then there is grading the warriors, ranks,
Is Jim a higher rank? He was certainly formidable.
I know what you meant, I didn't mean to make it an issue
but I've been meaning to write you for a while anyway.
But it's too late tonight.
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Date: Mon, Dec 8, 1997 at 01:33:49 (EST)
Poster: This little piggie wrecked the market
Email: b
To: Scott?
Subject: this little piggie became one (Re: Another Nice Link)
Message:
According to the Bible, Jesus did wash His disciple's feet.
Thanks for the scriptural confirmation.
What's your favorite line out of the book?
Or lines.
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Date: Mon, Dec 8, 1997 at 08:33:17 (EST)
Poster: Kathryn the Great
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: WIlliam the Conqueror
Subject: Blows against the Empire (Re: Another Nice Link)
Message:
I know what you meant, I didn't mean to make it an issue
but I've been meaning to write you for a while anyway.
But it's too late tonight.
I'm looking forward to it, bill. Really. I know I give you a hard time some times, but I really like your posts.
Katie
P.S. FYI I am already married to a nice ex-Lutheran boy so I don't need the lecture.
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Date: Mon, Dec 8, 1997 at 09:23:34 (EST)
Poster: Someone else
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: This little piggie wrecked the market
Subject: Re: this little piggie became one (Re: Another Nice Link)
Message:
I like all that "knowing" in the Old Testiment where Jacob "knew" her and went into her etc. They had a lot more fun in the Old Testiment.
Perhaps the most profound statement, to me, in the Bible is where Jesus says, "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone."
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Date: Mon, Dec 8, 1997 at 11:20:27 (EST)
Poster: Bobby
Email:
To: This little piggie wrecked the market
Subject: Re: this little piggie became one (Re: Another Nice Link)
Message:
"whatever you do to the least of these you do to me"
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Date: Mon, Dec 8, 1997 at 19:50:04 (EST)
Poster: Michael
Email:
To: Katie
Subject: Re: sikhing some clarity (Re: Another Nice Link)
Message:
I'm a Christian, and, yes, Jesus did wash his disciple's feet. Foot washing is practiced in many churches on Maunday Thursday, the evening before Good Friday during Holy Week.
Jesus did this to illustrate that those who wanted to be first must be the servant of all.
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Date: Mon, Dec 8, 1997 at 22:39:15 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Michael
Subject: Re: sikhing some clarity (Re: Another Nice Link)
Message:
I'm a Christian, and, yes, Jesus did wash his disciple's feet. Foot washing is practiced in many churches on Maunday Thursday, the evening before Good Friday during Holy Week.
Jesus did this to illustrate that those who wanted to be first must be the servant of all.
Dear Michael (and also Someone Else),
Thank you very much for answering my question. I know the bible fairly well, but we don't have one in the house.
I also remember reading about the abbot or abbess of monasteries washing 12 of the monks' or nuns' feet on that holy day as well, in emulation of Jesus. (In ashram terms, this would have been like the community coordinator doing everyone's laundry for a day, I suppose.
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Date: Tues, Dec 9, 1997 at 01:30:45 (EST)
Poster: Katherine the great
Email: bb
To: Katie
Subject: sikh of the mantra (Re: Another Nice Link)
Message:
Actually, the qoute is even better than that.
It's 'whoever wants to lead must be the servant of all.'
At least in this translation.
Yeshua and the proverbs make a strong case against
an angry leader. And pretending is very high on thier list of no-no's. No matter how well staged and orchrestrated.
By the way great one, I wouldn't think of lectureing you,
you old acid head.
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Date: Tues, Dec 9, 1997 at 02:00:48 (EST)
Poster: Kathryn the semi-great
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: St. Bill
Subject: Re: sikh of the mantra (Re: Another Nice Link)
Message:
Actually, the qoute is even better than that.
It's 'whoever wants to lead must be the servant of all.'
At least in this translation.
Yeshua and the proverbs make a strong case against
an angry leader. And pretending is very high on thier list of no-no's. No matter how well staged and orchrestrated.
By the way great one, I wouldn't think of lectureing you,
you old acid head.
Thanks for the non-lecture, Bill. Still waiting for your post, though. And thanks for the Jesus quote - it's true, isn't it? Where I work, I always make sure to do the dirty menial jobs once in a while so I don't get "above" myself.
By the way, my non-old-acid-head husband really misses your Saturday night/Sunday morning posts. I talked him into reading the first one because I said that NY chocolate fudge chunk ice cream was highly featured (he likes ice cream), and he loved it. I think there was one or two more classics featuring the green acid at woodstock (ask Bobby about that) and "dusting and mopping in the gap" and then you quit writing your weekly column. We miss it.
Regards from Katie (it's really Kathryn not Katherine. My mom liked Katherine Hepburn, but didn't spell my name the right way.)
P.S. Blows against the Empire was my FAVORITE album for a long time. I think in 1971 when I was 15. That's the only year of my life in which I used psychedelic drugs so I don't really qualify as an old acidhead like you.
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Date: Tues, Dec 9, 1997 at 02:53:35 (EST)
Poster: hobbes
Email: bb
To: Kathryn the greatest
Subject: sikh of the mantra (Re: Another Nice Link)
Message:
I agree with you about those airplane albums,
My acid days extended to early 73 when I turned to the
scriptures to figure out the power. I found the breath
on acid a few times and locked in for a while each time.
Maybe he would like anonomousies lunacy.
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Date: Sat, Dec 6, 1997 at 11:05:39 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Everyone
Subject: Newsgroup
Message:
Just thought I'd let everyone know that a few people are still posting on the alt.cult.maharaji newsgroup, so you may want to check it out once in a while. Rick Taraday, Yves, WOWest, and some joker named Dr. Michael E. Addison (sorry Mike!). Yves has an interesting story about receiving knowledge from Fakiranand (or Fakir, as op always called him) in 1973.
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Date: Sat, Dec 6, 1997 at 12:28:43 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Dr. Michael E. Addison
Subject: OOPS! (Re: Newsgroup)
Message:
Just thought I'd let everyone know that a few people are still posting on the alt.cult.maharaji newsgroup, so you may want to check it out once in a while. Rick Taraday, Yves, WOWest, and some joker named Dr. Michael E. Addison (sorry Mike!). Yves has an interesting story about receiving knowledge from Fakiranand (or Fakir, as op always called him) in 1973.
Apologies to Mike - I really do not think that you're a joker (in the negative sense that is - you do make good jokes.) I just liked seeing your whole name with title. Should have used one of those smiley face emoticons, I guess, although I hate to.
True regards from
Katie
P.S. Some of my best friends are Ph.D.'s (really), including my husband.
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Date: Sat, Dec 6, 1997 at 12:32:33 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email:
To: Katie
Subject: Re: Newsgroup
Message:
Well, I went over to the newsgroup, and this is what I think - smut, and (not only the sex ads). Really, its a pity that the truth gets obscured like this. Again, I can't believe that people can be so partial, nasty and mean about this. Maharaji is not going to come chasing after anyone. We are the losers if we let go and lose sight of him.
- Mili
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Date: Sat, Dec 6, 1997 at 08:01:36 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Everyone
Subject: A Link for the Ex-premie Website
Message:
Hey guys, I thought you might consider this link for your website. I kinda think it would fit in there, with the others...
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Date: Sat, Dec 6, 1997 at 10:38:32 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Mili
Subject: Re: A Link for the Ex-premie Website
Message:
Hey guys, I thought you might consider this link for your website. I kinda think it would fit in there, with the others...
Dear Mili - Interesting link (there are some other cool links on it as well as the conspiracy theory stuff), and I guess I get what you're trying to say, but I don't agree. I think that what EV/Maharaji is doing is more on the lines of the Jim and Tammy Faye Bakker (PTL Club) affair than any of those supposed "conspiracies" - it's pretty simple, mostly involves money and false pretenses, and doesn't take a conspiracy theorist to figure out. I don't think the ex-premie's attempts to discover the truth would make it onto any net conspiracy theories site. I apologize if this offends anyone, but it's really what I think. I do think Maharaji believes he's doing the right thing, as I said before, but I don't think that necessarily makes what he is doing right.
By the way, I get to hear about the conspiracy theories that were listed on that site all the time from my brother (he listens to G. Gordon Liddy's radio show) and people at work (who listen to the Rush Limbaugh program), and I think 99 percent of them are a bunch of bull. (Do you have Rush Limbaugh in Croatia? Probably not, because he appears to dislike anyone who is not a politically conservative white heterosexual male American citizen.)
Anyway, why don't you give us the link to YOUR web site(s) instead? There are some people on here who might be interested in seeing them.
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Date: Sat, Dec 6, 1997 at 10:59:15 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email:
To: Katie
Subject: Re: A Link for the Ex-premie Website
Message:
Hey guys, I thought you might consider this link for your website. I kinda think it would fit in there, with the others...
Dear Mili - Interesting link (there are some other cool links on it as well as the conspiracy theory stuff), and I guess I get what you're trying to say, but I don't agree. I think that what EV/Maharaji is doing is more on the lines of the Jim and Tammy Faye Bakker (PTL Club) affair than any of those supposed 'conspiracies' - it's pretty simple, mostly involves money and false pretenses, and doesn't take a conspiracy theorist to figure out. I don't think the ex-premie's attempts to discover the truth would make it onto any net conspiracy theories site. I apologize if this offends anyone, but it's really what I think. I do think Maharaji believes he's doing the right thing, as I said before, but I don't think that necessarily makes what he is doing right.
By the way, I get to hear about the conspiracy theories that were listed on that site all the time from my brother (he listens to G. Gordon Liddy's radio show) and people at work (who listen to the Rush Limbaugh program), and I think 99 percent of them are a bunch of bull. (Do you have Rush Limbaugh in Croatia? Probably not, because he appears to dislike anyone who is not a politically conservative white heterosexual male American citizen.)
Anyway, why don't you give us the link to YOUR web site(s) instead? There are some people on here who might be interested in seeing them.
Katie - this is for the record. I always thought you were the most reasonable and mature person here, (besides OP and CD of course). Jim is mature, but not reasonable. I don't know why, but I've funnily enough started having a likeing towards JW as of lately...(completely unreasonable, that's for sure).
Anyway, sure, here is the link to my site:
Dreaming We're Awake
The Javascript doesnn't work on MS Explorer I'm told, but it works fine on my Netscape browser.
No, we don't have Rush Limbaugh show here in catholic, conservative Croatia, but we do have the X-files and Santa Barbara!
- Mili
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Date: Sat, Dec 6, 1997 at 11:12:01 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email:
To: Mili
Subject: Re: A Link for the Ex-premie Website
Message:
Oh yeah - I like Bobby a lot. Goes without saying.
- Mili
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Date: Sat, Dec 6, 1997 at 11:17:44 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Mili
Subject: Re: A Link for the Ex-premie Website
Message:
Thank you very much for the compliment, Mili, although I don't know if it's true or not. I think you'll find that JW and others (even Jim) are quite mature and reasonable as well (I just had to say that!)
I correspond with a lot of people on this site via e-mail, and have found that most of the people are much nicer "in person" or one-on-one. But people have started being nicer on the site as well, which I hope isn't driving Bill Burke crazy (or kooky). Bill, it wasn't me that pushed for the "kinder and gentler" website this time - it just happened! (I'm sure you can start a knock-down drag-out fight if you try hard enough.)
Thanks for your link. I think at one time I saw a site of yours with a picture and mini-biography - would you care to share that with us if it's still around?
P.S. Rush Limbaugh hates the pope - not sure how he feels about Catholics. He also HATES the United Nations and thinks they are in a conspiracy to take over the world. He's a real isolationist.
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Date: Sat, Dec 6, 1997 at 11:19:53 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Mili
Subject: Re: A Link for the Ex-premie Website
Message:
Me too. He has several very interesting web sites as well. My favorite is his autobiography, which is hard to find.
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Date: Sat, Dec 6, 1997 at 11:54:47 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email:
To: Katie
Subject: Re: A Link for the Ex-premie Website
Message:
Thank you very much for the compliment, Mili, although I don't know if it's true or not. I think you'll find that JW and others (even Jim) are quite mature and reasonable as well (I just had to say that!)
I correspond with a lot of people on this site via e-mail, and have found that most of the people are much nicer 'in person' or one-on-one. But people have started being nicer on the site as well, which I hope isn't driving Bill Burke crazy (or kooky). Bill, it wasn't me that pushed for the 'kinder and gentler' website this time - it just happened! (I'm sure you can start a knock-down drag-out fight if you try hard enough.)
Thanks for your link. I think at one time I saw a site of yours with a picture and mini-biography - would you care to share that with us if it's still around?
P.S. Rush Limbaugh hates the pope - not sure how he feels about Catholics. He also HATES the United Nations and thinks they are in a conspiracy to take over the world. He's a real isolationist.
Katie,
The bio is at this link
Hey, remember the old Bible saying 'Judge not thy brother for a mote in his eye,...' I try to follow that, but sometimes it's really hard.
- Mili
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Date: Sat, Dec 6, 1997 at 14:02:24 (EST)
Poster: Bobby
Email:
To: Mili
Subject: Re: A Link for the Ex-premie Website
Message:
Thank you Mili.
I like you too as I like most people here.
My liking for folks on this forum goes beyond what seems as substantial individual differences.
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Date: Sat, Dec 6, 1997 at 14:03:45 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email:
To: Katie
Subject: Re: A Link for the Ex-premie Website
Message:
Dear Mili - Interesting link (there are some other cool links on it as well as the conspiracy theory stuff), and I guess I get what you're trying to say, but I don't agree. I think that what EV/Maharaji is doing is more on the lines of the Jim and Tammy Faye Bakker (PTL Club) affair than any of those supposed 'conspiracies' - it's pretty simple, mostly involves money and false pretenses, and doesn't take a conspiracy theorist to figure out. It does involve money, but the difference between us is that I think that he basically uses the money to propagate Knowledge. And it's becoming increasingly clear that he has become financially independent by investments, and doesn't rely on donations as much anymore to do it. Pretty smart moves. I don't mind him living a comfortable lifestyle and sending his kids to college. I believe he earns every penny that he gets.
Also, WHAT false pretenses are we talking about here? The Knowledge HAS worked, at least for some of the people who practiced it, as it was explained to them by Mji. You seem to hold firmly this point that, somehow, it's not right for people to hear about Knowledge and practice Knowledge, or that Maharaji is giving them bad advice regarding it. Now, that's a really strange viewpoint, and I simply cannot understand that.
If its bad for you, why publish the techniques on the Internet, then?
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Date: Sat, Dec 6, 1997 at 14:11:08 (EST)
Poster: Bobby
Email:
To: Katie
Subject: Re: A Link for the Ex-premie Website
Message:
Me too. He has several very interesting web sites as well. My favorite is his autobiography, which is hard to find.
Here's my autobiography, almost three years old, for those interested. I have several revisions to this, some of them substantial, but what I say is a start in understanding what I'm into.
I see the internet as a wonderful media tool to develop my own expressions. I'm kinda behind these days in the ongoing development of my websites, partly due to difficult personal circumstances, but hopefully the situations will change over time.
A Spiritual Emergence Journey
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Date: Sat, Dec 6, 1997 at 14:38:11 (EST)
Poster: Bobby
Email:
To: Mili
Subject: Re: A Link for the Ex-premie Website
Message:
Mili, thanks for the link to your bio.
I enjoyed reading your story and seeing the pictures.
Anyone else have anything personal on the net?
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Date: Sat, Dec 6, 1997 at 18:32:53 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Mili
Subject: Re: A Link for the Ex-premie Website
Message:
Also, WHAT false pretenses are we talking about here? The Knowledge HAS worked, at least for some of the people who practiced it, as it was explained to them by Mji. You seem to hold firmly this point that, somehow, it's not right for people to hear about Knowledge and practice Knowledge, or that Maharaji is giving them bad advice regarding it. Now, that's a really strange viewpoint, and I simply cannot understand that.
If its bad for you, why publish the techniques on the Internet, then?
Mili - I wasn't talking about the meditation techniques being false - I know that they do work for lots of people. I never got that much out of them, but I don't blame that on Maharaji, the mahatma, or any of the premies. And I don't think I've ever said that it wasn't right for people to hear about and practice knowledge, or that Maharaji was giving them bad advice regarding knowledge.
The false pretense that I am referring to is the belief that Maharaji is God, or Satguru, or Lord of the Universe, or divine in some way - not a human being like the rest of us. I went through a great deal of fear and anxiety as a result of this belief, and I think many other premies did as well. I personally don't think that Maharaji is God, and I think that he (or at least the famous "people around maharaji") DOES promote himself as such.
Hope this makes my views a little more clear.
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Date: Sat, Dec 6, 1997 at 18:48:31 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email:
To: Bobby
Subject: Re: A Link for the Ex-premie Website
Message:
Mili, thanks for the link to your bio.
I enjoyed reading your story and seeing the pictures.
Anyone else have anything personal on the net?
Well, everyone probably knows this, but I, Seymour, David Stirling, Jim Heller, and lot of other people have stories up on the "Journeys" section of the ex-premie website (under In Contact). Also CD (Chris) has a home page at www.cdickey.com (don't know how to make it a link). It's mostly professional, but there's a few personal things on there. (Chris keeps saying that he is going to put a picture of himself with his guitar on his website, but he hasn't done it yet...)
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Date: Sat, Dec 6, 1997 at 19:38:21 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email:
To: Katie
Subject: Re: A Link for the Ex-premie Website
Message:
Also, WHAT false pretenses are we talking about here? The Knowledge HAS worked, at least for some of the people who practiced it, as it was explained to them by Mji. You seem to hold firmly this point that, somehow, it's not right for people to hear about Knowledge and practice Knowledge, or that Maharaji is giving them bad advice regarding it. Now, that's a really strange viewpoint, and I simply cannot understand that.
If its bad for you, why publish the techniques on the Internet, then?
Mili - I wasn't talking about the meditation techniques being false - I know that they do work for lots of people. I never got that much out of them, but I don't blame that on Maharaji, the mahatma, or any of the premies. And I don't think I've ever said that it wasn't right for people to hear about and practice knowledge, or that Maharaji was giving them bad advice regarding knowledge.
The false pretense that I am referring to is the belief that Maharaji is God, or Satguru, or Lord of the Universe, or divine in some way - not a human being like the rest of us. I went through a great deal of fear and anxiety as a result of this belief, and I think many other premies did as well. I personally don't think that Maharaji is God, and I think that he (or at least the famous 'people around maharaji') DOES promote himself as such.
Hope this makes my views a little more clear.
This doesn't quite match up with the videos I saw some time ago where he gets up from his little chair and goes to people to grasp their hands.
I think he doesn't promote himself as God, at all.
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Date: Sat, Dec 6, 1997 at 19:52:31 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Mili the Warrior
Subject: Re: A Link for the Ex-premie Website
Message:
I think he doesn't promote himself as God, at all.
I think that when Maharaji lets people kiss his feet, he gives the impression that he considers himself above the normal run-of-the-mill human being. When I was a premie, I thought that he was the incarnation of God, the Satguru, and just like Jesus, Mohammed, Buddha, and so forth.
What (or who) do you think he is? If you feel like saying, that is.
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Date: Sat, Dec 6, 1997 at 20:56:56 (EST)
Poster: John
Email: kreilkamp@mindspring.com
To: Katie
Subject: Re: A Link for the Ex-premie Website
Message:
I think he doesn't promote himself as God, at all.
I think that when Maharaji lets people kiss his feet, he gives the impression that he considers himself above the normal run-of-the-mill human being. When I was a premie, I thought that he was the incarnation of God, the Satguru, and just like Jesus, Mohammed, Buddha, and so forth.
What (or who) do you think he is? If you feel like saying, that is.
Katie, I know you are not asking me but IMHO - I think this is very silly. That is, a discussion of who or what M is. It just strikes me as trying to define GOD or infinity or life or death. We don't know a damn thing other than what we can measure in this physical world. How can we know anything about each other. I mean you could be God for all I know. Each of us is a mysterious being created from a mysterious source.
You want to pass a law saying that M cannot allow people to kiss his feet? He puts his feet out there, no one forces anyone to go kiss them!
No one ever forced me to kiss them, I chose to subject myself to that experience.
So now that I have had that experience, and I don't want it anymore, so now no one else should be allowed?
That does not seem quite right.
I bet you screamed at the Beatles too, and you probably had a great time. or were you too young?
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Date: Sat, Dec 6, 1997 at 23:13:42 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: John
Subject: Re: A Link for the Ex-premie Website
Message:
Katie, I know you are not asking me but IMHO - I think this is very silly. That is, a discussion of who or what M is. It just strikes me as trying to define GOD or infinity or life or death. We don't know a damn thing other than what we can measure in this physical world. How can we know anything about each other. I mean you could be God for all I know. Each of us is a mysterious being created from a mysterious source.
You want to pass a law saying that M cannot allow people to kiss his feet? He puts his feet out there, no one forces anyone to go kiss them!
No one ever forced me to kiss them, I chose to subject myself to that experience.
So now that I have had that experience, and I don't want it anymore, so now no one else should be allowed?
That does not seem quite right.
I bet you screamed at the Beatles too, and you probably had a great time. or were you too young?
Hi John.
Yeah, I really was too young for the Beatles - at least for the screaming part (I think my first Beatles record was Sargeant Pepper and they were definitely beyond the screaming stage then.)
But to get to the point, I don't think it's silly to discuss who or what Maharaji is, unless you also think it's silly to discuss who I am, and who you are, and who Paul McCartney is and so forth. And I never said that people shouldn't be able to kiss Maharaji's feet if they want to - there's certainly a lot WORSE things that they could be doing. All I meant, and was trying to say, that I think that letting someone kiss your feet is allowing them to perform an act of homage or worship to you, and that that leads people to believe that Maharaji is somehow "higher" then them in some way. (I know that Jesus washed his disciples feet, but you don't see Maharaji going around and kissing the premies feet, right?)
I really don't have any problem with premies kissing Maharaji's feet if they want to - the problem I have is that Maharaji gives darshan, and then claims (or the premies claim, rather) that he is "just a regular guy".
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Date: Sun, Dec 7, 1997 at 03:53:34 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email:
To: Katie
Subject: Re: A Link for the Ex-premie Website
Message:
Well, he appears pretty regular, doesn't he? He dresses normally, has nice manners, married, kids, goes to the office to work, pilots an airplane...
BTW, I remember a festival in Munich (1976, I think) where he played a tape he recorded himself over the P.A. The first song was 'Fly Like an Eagle' by the Steve Miller Band. The hall went wild! Then there was other stuff, Paul Mcartney included.
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Date: Sun, Dec 7, 1997 at 08:05:54 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email:
To: Katie
Subject: Re: A Link for the Ex-premie Website
Message:
Katie, I know you are not asking me but IMHO - I think this is very silly. That is, a discussion of who or what M is. It just strikes me as trying to define GOD or infinity or life or death. We don't know a damn thing other than what we can measure in this physical world. How can we know anything about each other. I mean you could be God for all I know. Each of us is a mysterious being created from a mysterious source.
You want to pass a law saying that M cannot allow people to kiss his feet? He puts his feet out there, no one forces anyone to go kiss them!
No one ever forced me to kiss them, I chose to subject myself to that experience.
So now that I have had that experience, and I don't want it anymore, so now no one else should be allowed?
That does not seem quite right.
I bet you screamed at the Beatles too, and you probably had a great time. or were you too young?
Hi John.
Yeah, I really was too young for the Beatles - at least for the screaming part (I think my first Beatles record was Sargeant Pepper and they were definitely beyond the screaming stage then.)
But to get to the point, I don't think it's silly to discuss who or what Maharaji is, unless you also think it's silly to discuss who I am, and who you are, and who Paul McCartney is and so forth. And I never said that people shouldn't be able to kiss Maharaji's feet if they want to - there's certainly a lot WORSE things that they could be doing. All I meant, and was trying to say, that I think that letting someone kiss your feet is allowing them to perform an act of homage or worship to you, and that that leads people to believe that Maharaji is somehow 'higher' then them in some way. (I know that Jesus washed his disciples feet, but you don't see Maharaji going around and kissing the premies feet, right?)
I really don't have any problem with premies kissing Maharaji's feet if they want to - the problem I have is that Maharaji gives darshan, and then claims (or the premies claim, rather) that he is 'just a regular guy'.
I think it would be very difficult, technically, to arrange to have Mji kiss every devotee's feet. Can you imagine thousands of people passing and him bending down every time? But, anyway, he has worked on that, and in the late seventies, there was just an elevated pillow in front of him in darshan, for anyone who wanted to simply do pranaam - bend a little and lay their forehead on the pillow facing Mji. And some darshan lines were just people passing by him. Sometimes several times over (coming back for more!), although that was discouraged. And I did have some pretty amazing experiences with that, that I still can't explain, but they were surprisingly and undeniably there.
In India it is a custom to touch people's feet as a sign of respect. While I was working in UNICEF, I invited an Indian friend home for dinner, and as he entered our home he went down on all fours to touch my mother's feet. He was really blissed out when we told him later that we were devotees of Shri Sant Ji Maharaj, who is the son of Hans Ji Maharaj. In the Indian scriptures, you can read about devotees massaging their Gurus' feet all the time. Frankly, I am not sure what this feet business is all about, but wasn't there something in the Bible about Mary Magdalene washing the feet of Jesus with her hair and massaging them with myrth and fragrant oil? It had more to it than just simple physiotherapy. Did I get that right?
- Mili
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Date: Sun, Dec 7, 1997 at 08:17:48 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email:
To: Katie
Subject: Re: A Link for the Ex-premie Website
Message:
Hey, how come nobody ever talks about Holi here? That is definitely a case of everyone (including Maharaji) getting dyed, drenched and washed (feet and all) to an equal extent!
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Date: Mon, Dec 8, 1997 at 05:38:47 (EST)
Poster: Mr Ex
Email:
To: Mili
Subject: Re: A Link for the Ex-premie Website
Message:
It does involve money, but the difference between us is that I think that he basically uses the money to propagate Knowledge. And it's becoming increasingly clear that he has become financially independent by investments, and doesn't rely on donations as much anymore to do it. Pretty smart moves. I don't mind him living a comfortable lifestyle and sending his kids to college. I believe he earns every penny that he gets.
Again :
‘financially independent by investment’ ! ! ! ! ! ! My God ! How can you be so far from what’s going on in Elan Vital. Maybe because you live in Croatia. The reality of Elan Vital is that it’s a huge network pumping money for Mr PPR aka Maharaji, ex Lord of the Universe.
Please read this again (every premie or ex-premie having been involved in EV’s organization in most of the countries can confirm this from his own experience, and give lots of details I won’t give myself purposely. It so interesting to have people telling what they have been doing in that field. Ask Deena, JW, or others).
The investment Maharaji made : he owns his jet, lots of houses and apartments and residences, lands for conferences. All paid by EV Inc. officially or unofficially. What kind of investment is this. It’s called tax fraud, according to US and lots of countries financial regulations !
He doesn’t rely on donations : again, you are very far from reality. EV Inc. and Maharaji have huge debts.
Go to financial ‘service’ meetings if there are some around your place. Can you honestly repeat what’s being said ?
If you can’t many people reading this can and will, I hope.
Participation don’t increase, when his projects require more and more. The operating costs of the G4 are beyond resources, and it’s an unsolved problem.
As 90% of people receiving ‘knowledge’ leave, he needs to increase the numbers of people receiving it. And people giving donations. As most of donations are ‘given’ at big events, he is going to make more big events. Of course this won’t work for all the reasons you can imagine, as none of his plans ever really worked.
****************************
Maharaji, Elan Vital, and Money
Maharaji's organization, Elan Vital Incorporated. (EVI) is registered as a
charity in both the United States and United Kingdom. In most other
countries, EVI is registered as a non-profit organization. Many kinds of
financial activities take place under the auspices of EVI. Many of them are
permitted by US tax regulations. Some are not. People who are interested in
Maharaji and 'his' knowledge may want to know something about these
financial activities, details of which are never made public.
What follows is information that most of the people who are involved in
running EVI are aware of, although I have kept details confidential for
legal reasons and to protect some persons (I consider them as victims)
involved in these activities. I invite you to make your own analysis and come
to your own conclusions about this information.
EVI organizes conferences and 'Knowledge' sessions, publishes propagation
materials and supports M.'s tours. However, EVI is also used as a network
of resources to collect funds for Maharaji by various means. Instructors
and EVI employees are responsible for these activities, with Yorum Weisz being
one of the main persons responsible. Maharaji's private expenses
are considerable - he spends an average of $10,000 (US) per
day for his (and his family's) personal use. This does NOT include
conference expenses, which are paid for by EVI, or the purchase of houses,
cars, and furnishings for his homes, which are paid for by 'gifts' requested
through EVI's network of resources. Thus the amount of money given to (and
spent by) Maharaji personally is huge - hundreds of thousands of dollars per
year. I don't have anything in particular against that: many people are very
rich and spend daily a lot more than you and me. What is wrong is the way
Maharaji and his family use EV Inc. and people devoted to spirituality for
their personal gain.
EVI is used to organize and run profit-making companies through various
systems. Some of the money made by these companies has been given and is still
given directly to Maharaji. This is a violation of EVI's charity status
(and financial regulations in any country, for these private companies).
There are several private companies which give some of their profits
to Maharaji. In the US, Amtext Inc. and NSA are the main
companies used for this purpose. They have branches in some other
countries, and there are other companies of this type in both the US and
other countries.
Premies who want to do 'service' are strongly advised (by EVI's officials)
to work for these companies, either for free or for very low wages. These
companies make millions of dollars per year in profits. The managers of
these companies are close 'friends' of Maharaji, and give him regular huge
donations from these profits.
Donations made to the Elan Vital Foundation are also a source of large
amounts of money for Maharaji's use. EVI's funds are also used to build and
maintain Maharaji's private residences. Lands bought by EVI are in fact
actually owned by Maharaji and his family. In addition to this, cash given
to EVI in various countries is illegally smuggled into the US for Maharaji's
private use.
Those who believe that Elan Vital is a legal charity and that Maharaji
gives spiritual 'knowledge' for free should consider this information. If you
would like to know more about this, just ask some of the premies you know
what they have been asked to do in many of the 'service' meetings.
*************************************
Also, WHAT false pretenses are we talking about here? The Knowledge HAS worked, at least for some of the people who practiced it, as it was explained to them by Mji. You seem to hold firmly this point that, somehow, it's not right for people to hear about Knowledge and practice Knowledge, or that Maharaji is giving them bad advice regarding it. Now, that's a really strange viewpoint, and I simply cannot understand that.
Mr PPR’s recipe is an old Indian recipe that has proved his ‘efficiency’ for generations of gurus.
Please read Dr Lane’s work on Surat Shabd yoga.
PPR is just a deceitful meditation teacher, abusing naive people like you and me, using Indian techniques he inherited and that he does not fully understand himself.
I don’t say that these meditation techniques don’t work. They definitely do. But he does not own them, and the way he uses them and all his guru play is very harmful for people.
I red most of the documents about Radhasoami available on Dr Lane’s web-site. He recalls the story of one of the satgurus who finally resigned from his satguruship, after being convinced by some people that he was not what he thought he was. He went to the true guru and became his disciple. Nice story.
By the way : I made a 150 pages Word file out of all theses pages about Radhasoami tradition. It’s a 500 Ko zipped file. If anybody wants it, I can email it.
If its bad for you, why publish the techniques on the Internet, then?
Why ? And why say all this ? Because me and thousands of naive people have been abused by this so-called ‘guru’, ‘perfect master’, ‘lord of the universe’, using that Indian guru-recipe.
Naive aspirants have to be warned.
Abused premies appreciate the help they found here and on the ex-premie.org web-site. Read Seymour’s recent post and many others (like mine).
My suggestion to Jim and David working on ‘ex-premie.org’ would be to start a new financial information and feedback page/topic where infomation could be available. I think that would be very helpful for many.
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Date: Mon, Dec 8, 1997 at 09:53:22 (EST)
Poster: Bobby
Email: bobby@ptd.net
To: Mr Ex
Subject: Re: A Link for the Ex-premie Website
Message:
Mr. ex-instructor said:
I made a 150 pages Word file out of all theses pages about Radhasoami tradition. It’s a 500 Ko zipped file. If anybody wants it, I can email it.
Please send this to me at:
bobby@ptd.net
Thanks
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Date: Mon, Dec 8, 1997 at 10:22:12 (EST)
Poster: Mr Ex
Email:
To: Mili
Subject: Re: A Link for the Ex-premie Website
Message:
I re-post my previous answer, because I'm not very familiar with this 'quote/answer' system
>It does involve money, but the difference between us is that I think that he basically uses the money to propagate >Knowledge. And it's becoming increasingly clear that he has become financially independent by investments, and >doesn't rely on donations as much anymore to do it. Pretty smart moves. I don't mind him living a comfortable >lifestyle and sending his kids to college. I believe he earns every penny that he gets.
Again :
‘financially independent by investment’ ! ! ! ! ! ! My God ! How can you be so far from what’s going on in Elan Vital. Maybe because you live in Croatia. The reality of Elan Vital is that it’s a huge network pumping money for Mr PPR aka Maharaji, ex Lord of the Universe.
Please read this again (every premie or ex-premie having been involved in EV’s organization in most of the countries can confirm this from his own experience, and give lots of details I won’t give myself purposely. It so interesting to have people telling what they have been doing in that field. Ask Deena, JW, or others).
The investment Maharaji made : he owns his jet, lots of houses and apartments and residences, lands for conferences. All paid by EV Inc. officially or unofficially. What kind of investment is this. It’s called tax fraud, according to US and lots of countries financial regulations !
He doesn’t rely on donations : again, you are very far from reality. EV Inc. and Maharaji have huge debts.
Go to financial ‘service’ meetings if there are some around your place. Can you honestly repeat what’s being said ?
If you can’t many people reading this can and will, I hope.
Participation don’t increase, when his projects require more and more. The operating costs of the G4 are beyond resources, and it’s an unsolved problem.
As 90% of people receiving ‘knowledge’ leave, he needs to increase the numbers of people receiving it. And people giving donations. As most of donations are ‘given’ at big events, he is going to make more big events. Of course this won’t work for all the reasons you can imagine, as none of his plans ever really worked.
****************************
Maharaji, Elan Vital, and Money
Maharaji's organization, Elan Vital Incorporated. (EVI) is registered as a
charity in both the United States and United Kingdom. In most other
countries, EVI is registered as a non-profit organization. Many kinds of
financial activities take place under the auspices of EVI. Many of them are
permitted by US tax regulations. Some are not. People who are interested in
Maharaji and 'his' knowledge may want to know something about these
financial activities, details of which are never made public.
What follows is information that most of the people who are involved in
running EVI are aware of, although I have kept details confidential for
legal reasons and to protect some persons (I consider them as victims)
involved in these activities. I invite you to make your own analysis and come
to your own conclusions about this information.
EVI organizes conferences and 'Knowledge' sessions, publishes propagation
materials and supports M.'s tours. However, EVI is also used as a network
of resources to collect funds for Maharaji by various means. Instructors
and EVI employees are responsible for these activities, with Yorum Weisz being
one of the main persons responsible. Maharaji's private expenses
are considerable - he spends an average of $10,000 (US) per
day for his (and his family's) personal use. This does NOT include
conference expenses, which are paid for by EVI, or the purchase of houses,
cars, and furnishings for his homes, which are paid for by 'gifts' requested
through EVI's network of resources. Thus the amount of money given to (and
spent by) Maharaji personally is huge - hundreds of thousands of dollars per
year. I don't have anything in particular against that: many people are very
rich and spend daily a lot more than you and me. What is wrong is the way
Maharaji and his family use EV Inc. and people devoted to spirituality for
their personal gain.
EVI is used to organize and run profit-making companies through various
systems. Some of the money made by these companies has been given and is still
given directly to Maharaji. This is a violation of EVI's charity status
(and financial regulations in any country, for these private companies).
There are several private companies which give some of their profits
to Maharaji. In the US, Amtext Inc. and NSA are the main
companies used for this purpose. They have branches in some other
countries, and there are other companies of this type in both the US and
other countries.
Premies who want to do 'service' are strongly advised (by EVI's officials)
to work for these companies, either for free or for very low wages. These
companies make millions of dollars per year in profits. The managers of
these companies are close 'friends' of Maharaji, and give him regular huge
donations from these profits.
Donations made to the Elan Vital Foundation are also a source of large
amounts of money for Maharaji's use. EVI's funds are also used to build and
maintain Maharaji's private residences. Lands bought by EVI are in fact
actually owned by Maharaji and his family. In addition to this, cash given
to EVI in various countries is illegally smuggled into the US for Maharaji's
private use.
Those who believe that Elan Vital is a legal charity and that Maharaji
gives spiritual 'knowledge' for free should consider this information. If you
would like to know more about this, just ask some of the premies you know
what they have been asked to do in many of the 'service' meetings.
*************************************
>Also, WHAT false pretenses are we talking about here? The Knowledge HAS worked, at least for some of the >people who practiced it, as it was explained to them by Mji. You seem to hold firmly this point that, somehow, it's >not right for people to hear about Knowledge and practice Knowledge, or that Maharaji is giving them bad >advice regarding it. Now, that's a really strange viewpoint, and I simply cannot understand that.
Mr PPR’s recipe is an old Indian recipe that has proved his ‘efficiency’ for generations of gurus.
Please read Dr Lane’s work on Surat Shabd yoga.
PPR is just a deceitful meditation teacher, abusing naive people like you and me, using Indian techniques he inherited and that he does not fully understand himself.
I don’t say that these meditation techniques don’t work. They definitely do. But he does not own them, and the way he uses them and all his guru play is very harmful for people.
I red most of the documents about Radhasoami available on Dr Lane’s web-site. He recalls the story of one of the satgurus who finally resigned from his satguruship, after being convinced by some people that he was not what he thought he was. He went to the true guru and became his disciple. Nice story.
By the way : I made a 150 pages Word file out of all theses pages about Radhasoami tradition. It’s a 500 Ko zipped file. If anybody wants it, I can email it.
>If its bad for you, why publish the techniques on the Internet, then?
Why ? And why say all this ? Because me and thousands of naive people have been abused by this so-called ‘guru’, ‘perfect master’, ‘lord of the universe’, using that Indian guru-recipe.
Naive aspirants have to be warned.
Abused premies appreciate the help they found here and on the ex-premie.org web-site. Read Seymour’s recent post and many others (like mine).
My suggestion to Jim and David working on ‘ex-premie.org’ would be to start a new financial information and feedback page/topic where infomation could be available. I think that would be very helpful for many.
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Date: Mon, Dec 8, 1997 at 13:22:13 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: Mili
Subject: Re: A Link for the Ex-premie Website
Message:
don't know why, but I've funnily enough started having a likeing towards JW as of lately...(completely unreasonable, that's for sure).
Oh no. What could I have possibly done to deserve that?
JW
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Date: Mon, Dec 8, 1997 at 15:57:26 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: A Link for the Ex-premie Website
Message:
don't know why, but I've funnily enough started having a likeing towards JW as of lately...(completely unreasonable, that's for sure).
Oh no. What could I have possibly done to deserve that?
JW
Nothing. That's why it's so strange!
- Mili
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Date: Mon, Dec 8, 1997 at 16:11:33 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Mr Ex
Subject: to MrEx (Re: A Link for the Ex-premie Website)
Message:
Your finance analysis is pretty vague, not only as regards the original source of the information, but also as to the specific breakdown of the amounts cited.
You are aware, I hope, that all this can be looked at from two sides. I see it as money being utilised for propagation of Knowledge and sustenance of someone who is an expert (at least in my opinion) on it. The tours, hall rentals and other expenses do involve some real money, I am sure you will agree. And I wouldn't wan't my Guru or his family to be out in the boondocks and living on social welfare. But, you seem to take a different interpretation of it, and I can see that is a possible interpretation, though not likely, in my opinion. Our differences seem to be of whether the tail is wagging the dog, or is the dog wagging the tail.
All this discussion about the competency of Mr PPSR as Guru has made me look up my stashed satsang magazines, and I have found plenty of photographs of him meditating (one of them is from the time he was about 6 yrs old) and quite graphic statements of the experiences he has had with the Knowledge. He always speaks as someone who is very intimate with the experience. I can make a few scans of the photos and send them to you if you were to feel it would not compromise your anonymity.
By the way, what do you think of the Peace Bomb satsang?
- Mili
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Date: Tues, Dec 9, 1997 at 05:57:17 (EST)
Poster: Mr Ex
Email:
To: Mili
Subject: Re: to MrEx (Re: A Link for the Ex-premie Website)
Message:
>Your finance analysis is pretty vague, not only as regards the original source of the information, but also as to the >specific breakdown of the amounts cited.
IRS (tax people) analysis might be very much like mine. Can’t you read English ?
When I say that PPR owns a $ 25 millions worth paid by donations made to EV
Foundation, I mean it. This can be investigated, and when it will, PPR is going
to go to jail, as well as those responsible of EV Inc. involved in this fraud.
Same thing for his millions $ worth production companies, lands, etc.
Other gurus did the same thing and got the same treatment from the US government.
US jails are not that bad, and PPR might even get his food from his private cook.
>You are aware, I hope, that all this can be looked at from two sides. I see it as money being utilized for propagation of >Knowledge and sustenance of someone who is an expert (at least in my opinion) on it. The tours, hall rentals and >other expenses do involve some real money, I am sure you will agree. And I wouldn't wan't my Guru or his family to be >out in the boondocks and living on social welfare. But, you seem to take a different interpretation of it, and I can see >that is a possible interpretation, though not likely, in my opinion. Our differences seem to be of whether the tail is >wagging the dog, or is the dog wagging the tail.
Your childish analysis has nothing to do with US and international laws and regulations. PPR’s lawyers will of
course argue on that base, which is PPR’s explanation when he makes his ‘service’ meetings.
What else could he say ? The other alternative would be to sell ‘knowledge’. He does not want to go into
that for obvious reasons. He is stuck there and that will be the end of his dream one day or another,
as soon as possible I hope.
>All this discussion about the competency of Mr PPSR as Guru has made me look up my stashed satsang magazines, >and I have found plenty of photographs of him meditating (one of them is from the time he was about 6 yrs old) and >quite graphic statements of the experiences he has had with the Knowledge. He always speaks as someone who is very >intimate with the experience. I can make a few scans of the photos and send them to you if you were to feel it would >not compromise your anonymity.
This is a childish analysis.
‘knowledge’ this is a path of meditation, or a path of devotion.
Meditation can only be understood by those who have a deep experience in practicing it. People who do, usually
have no problem speaking about it and guiding their disciples. PPR’s only guidance is ‘trust’.
A lot has already been said and written about it. You know it. You don’t like it, I can understand it.
Regarding the path of devotion, a lot has already been said about it also.
PPR is a ridiculous guru. He only exists through the devotion of premies.
The way they are taught, these 4 meditations techniques are nothing but a good pacifier.
They are a powerful tool in PPR’s hand to mislead his naive hypnotized devotees.
They are probably a very powerful tool too, under the guidance of a true guru.
Please read Dr Lane’s analysis, I’m sure you’ve read it.
I also own plenty of magazines, some you would love to own I’m sure. Old Indian pictures, and magazines from
the 60s and 70s. And a copy of Hans Yog Prakash ! That’s worth millions ..... -))))) J
(I hesitate to post it : that would confuse so many naive aspirants and premies .........
I also have a problem with it. The print is not very good, and I’ll have problems to scan it and and process it
with my OCR software.
And PPR will be furious, bad karma for me. That tends to encourage me posting it : I love PPR being furious.
It makes me feel good, you can’t imagine how much. I must de devilish somehow.)
>By the way, what do you think of the Peace Bomb satsang?
Childish. In the true sense.
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Date: Tues, Dec 9, 1997 at 09:28:41 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email:
To: Mr Ex
Subject: Re: to MrEx (Re: A Link for the Ex-premie Website)
Message:
Yup, just as I thought - your accusations are a lot of hot air. You are just guessing. There is nothing illegal about the EV finances. Do you think Mji would compromise his mission in any way? The IRS can come and check whatever they want. Mji's finances are squeaky clean.
I suggest you read the 'Peace Bomb' satsang again - it's way beyond what you would expect from a twelve-year old boy.
Oh, yeah - I have a copy of the Hans Yog Prakash, too.
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