|
Ex-Premie.Org |
Forum II Archive #
2 |
From:
Dec 9, 1997 |
To:
Dec 30, 1997 |
Page:
3
Of:
5 |
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annie come on, -:- this is your thread -:- Mon, Dec 22, 1997 at 02:34:06 (EST)
___Annie -:- Re: this is your thread -:- Mon, Dec 22, 1997 at 10:32:56 (EST)
___Annie -:- What I walked out of that room with -:- Mon, Dec 22, 1997 at 14:32:02 (EST)
___happy holidays -:- to you too. -:- Mon, Dec 22, 1997 at 17:51:42 (EST)
JW -:- Maharaji MTV Music Video (Rerun) -:- Sun, Dec 21, 1997 at 22:20:59 (EST)
___John Kreilkamp -:- Re: Maharaji MTV Music Video (Rerun) -:- Mon, Dec 22, 1997 at 10:19:59 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: Maharaji MTV Music Video (Rerun) -:- Mon, Dec 22, 1997 at 13:01:47 (EST)
___Q -:- Re: Maharaji MTV Music Video (Rerun) -:- Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 00:44:17 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: Maharaji MTV Music Video (Rerun) -:- Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 01:13:22 (EST)
___bftb -:- Re: Maharaji MTV Music Video (Rerun) -:- Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 16:17:22 (EST)
___op -:- Re: Maharaji MTV Music Video (Rerun) -:- Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 19:11:01 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: Maharaji MTV Music Video (Rerun) -:- Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 19:54:14 (EST)
___op -:- Re: Maharaji MTV Music Video (Rerun) -:- Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 22:13:20 (EST)
___John K. -:- Re: Maharaji MTV Music Video (Rerun) -:- Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 23:09:22 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: Maharaji MTV Music Video (Rerun) -:- Wed, Dec 24, 1997 at 00:09:03 (EST)
___JJ -:- Re: Maharaji MTV Music Video (Rerun) -:- Wed, Dec 24, 1997 at 00:55:05 (EST)
___KJ -:- Re: Maharaji MTV Music Video (Rerun) -:- Wed, Dec 24, 1997 at 01:03:15 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: Maharaji MTV Music Video (Rerun) -:- Wed, Dec 24, 1997 at 01:18:59 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: Maharaji MTV Music Video (Rerun) -:- Wed, Dec 24, 1997 at 01:22:29 (EST)
___Ms. Katie -:- Happy Birthday, Joe -:- Wed, Dec 24, 1997 at 01:42:39 (EST)
___op -:- Re: Maharaji MTV Music Video (Rerun) -:- Wed, Dec 24, 1997 at 02:56:13 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: Maharaji MTV Music Video (Rerun) -:- Wed, Dec 24, 1997 at 03:18:19 (EST)
JW -:- Joan Apter -:- Sun, Dec 21, 1997 at 20:57:18 (EST)
___joan of apter -:- the windsurfer -:- Mon, Dec 22, 1997 at 00:21:21 (EST)
___op -:- Re: odl timers -:- Mon, Dec 22, 1997 at 03:29:37 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: the windsurfer -:- Mon, Dec 22, 1997 at 13:16:42 (EST)
___CD -:- Re: the windsurfer -:- Mon, Dec 22, 1997 at 18:41:51 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: the windsurfer -:- Mon, Dec 22, 1997 at 19:50:52 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: the windsurfer -:- Mon, Dec 22, 1997 at 23:38:20 (EST)
JW -:- Announcement to All Premies -:- Sun, Dec 21, 1997 at 19:03:45 (EST)
___Jw -:- Re: Announcement to All Premies -:- Sun, Dec 21, 1997 at 19:08:21 (EST)
Katie -:- Recovery -:- Sun, Dec 21, 1997 at 18:43:09 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: Recovery -:- Mon, Dec 22, 1997 at 02:33:03 (EST)
___m tried to get rid of the -:- personality cult himself in the past -:- Mon, Dec 22, 1997 at 02:53:57 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: Recovery -:- Mon, Dec 22, 1997 at 09:36:53 (EST)
___John Kreilkamp -:- Re: Recovery -:- Mon, Dec 22, 1997 at 10:45:22 (EST)
___Mr Ex -:- Re: Recovery -:- Mon, Dec 22, 1997 at 10:57:13 (EST)
___Very Angry -:- Re: Recovery -:- Mon, Dec 22, 1997 at 12:25:24 (EST)
___John Cavad -:- Re: Recovery -:- Mon, Dec 22, 1997 at 13:01:46 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: Recovery -:- Mon, Dec 22, 1997 at 13:02:08 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: Recovery -:- Mon, Dec 22, 1997 at 13:19:51 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: Recovery -:- Mon, Dec 22, 1997 at 14:52:19 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: Recovery -:- Mon, Dec 22, 1997 at 17:26:36 (EST)
___Mommy -:- Re: Recovery -:- Mon, Dec 22, 1997 at 22:34:21 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: personality cult himself in the past -:- Mon, Dec 22, 1997 at 23:39:52 (EST)
___Mr Ex -:- Re: Recovery -:- Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 04:56:45 (EST)
Bobby -:- It's Here Now - Are You? Bha. Das -:- Sun, Dec 21, 1997 at 13:35:55 (EST)
___Bobby -:- Re: It's Here Now - Are You? Bha. Das -:- Sun, Dec 21, 1997 at 15:03:45 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: It's Here Now - Are You? Bha. Das -:- Sun, Dec 21, 1997 at 16:54:43 (EST)
___Rick -:- Re: It's Here Now - Are You? Bha. Das -:- Mon, Dec 22, 1997 at 00:24:50 (EST)
___I wish indians would -:- pick names that were not so religious -:- Mon, Dec 22, 1997 at 02:25:48 (EST)
___Bobby -:- Re: It's Here Now - Are You? Bha. Das -:- Mon, Dec 22, 1997 at 09:25:28 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: pick names that were not so religious -:- Mon, Dec 22, 1997 at 09:32:06 (EST)
___Bobby -:- Re: pick names that were not so religious -:- Mon, Dec 22, 1997 at 09:32:09 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: pick names that were not so religious -:- Mon, Dec 22, 1997 at 09:41:15 (EST)
___Rick -:- Re: It's Here Now - Are You? Bha. Das -:- Mon, Dec 22, 1997 at 12:38:47 (EST)
___straight -:- job -:- Mon, Dec 22, 1997 at 18:41:47 (EST)
___Edith -:- Re: job -:- Mon, Dec 22, 1997 at 18:51:47 (EST)
___edith -:- you sweet angel -:- Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 02:13:10 (EST)
___Bobby -:- Re: It's Here Now - Are You? Bha. Das -:- Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 08:50:47 (EST)
___Rick -:- Re: It's Here Now - Are You? Bha. Das -:- Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 14:35:00 (EST)
Sir David -:- Love loves to love love -:- Sun, Dec 21, 1997 at 13:21:46 (EST)
___to -:- hanuman -:- Mon, Dec 22, 1997 at 01:20:49 (EST)
___Sir David -:- Re: hanuman -:- Mon, Dec 22, 1997 at 07:52:12 (EST)
___han -:- uman -:- Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 22:54:51 (EST)
Mili -:- Jacob Boehme -:- Sun, Dec 21, 1997 at 11:45:42 (EST)
___childhoods' -:- end -:- Mon, Dec 22, 1997 at 01:51:43 (EST)
___The Pharisee -:- Re: Jacob Boehme -:- Mon, Dec 22, 1997 at 14:33:15 (EST)
Mike -:- Doom and Gloom Band Wagon -:- Sat, Dec 20, 1997 at 21:37:44 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: Doom and Gloom Band Wagon -:- Sat, Dec 20, 1997 at 21:46:11 (EST)
___Sir David -:- Re: Doom and Gloom Band Wagon -:- Sat, Dec 20, 1997 at 22:14:22 (EST)
___Mike -:- Re: Doom and Gloom Band Wagon -:- Sat, Dec 20, 1997 at 22:20:33 (EST)
___Mike -:- Edgar Cayce says... -:- Sat, Dec 20, 1997 at 22:26:01 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: Doom and Gloom Band Wagon -:- Sat, Dec 20, 1997 at 22:30:10 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: Edgar Cayce says... -:- Sat, Dec 20, 1997 at 22:35:24 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: Doom and Gloom Band Wagon -:- Sat, Dec 20, 1997 at 22:48:11 (EST)
___Mike -:- Re: Edgar Cayce says... -:- Sat, Dec 20, 1997 at 22:58:26 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: Edgar Cayce says... -:- Sat, Dec 20, 1997 at 23:15:09 (EST)
___Mickey the Pharisee -:- Re: Doom and Gloom Band Wagon -:- Sat, Dec 20, 1997 at 23:15:40 (EST)
___op -:- Re: Doom and Gloom Band Wagon -:- Sun, Dec 21, 1997 at 00:32:34 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: Doom and Gloom Band Wagon -:- Sun, Dec 21, 1997 at 02:04:30 (EST)
___Sir David -:- Re: Edgar Cayce says... -:- Sun, Dec 21, 1997 at 03:44:04 (EST)
___Sir David -:- Re: Doom and Gloom Band Wagon -:- Sun, Dec 21, 1997 at 03:58:52 (EST)
___Mike -:- Re: Edgar Cayce says... -:- Sun, Dec 21, 1997 at 10:18:27 (EST)
___op - off topic, but you might find it interesting -:- Re: Doom and Gloom Band Wagon -:- Sun, Dec 21, 1997 at 10:25:33 (EST)
___The prophet David -:- Re: Edgar Cayce says... -:- Sun, Dec 21, 1997 at 11:28:33 (EST)
___The prophet David -:- Re: Doom and Gloom Band Wagon -:- Sun, Dec 21, 1997 at 11:35:54 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: Doom and Gloom Band Wagon -:- Sun, Dec 21, 1997 at 18:11:30 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: Doom and Gloom Band Wagon -:- Sun, Dec 21, 1997 at 18:46:01 (EST)
John Cavad -:- Meat or No meat? -:- Sat, Dec 20, 1997 at 20:06:03 (EST)
___op -:- Re: Meat or No meat? -:- Sun, Dec 21, 1997 at 00:13:16 (EST)
___!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! -:- !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!what? -:- Sun, Dec 21, 1997 at 07:52:29 (EST)
___op -:- Re: !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!what? -:- Sun, Dec 21, 1997 at 10:01:00 (EST)
___b -:- mili -:- Sun, Dec 21, 1997 at 10:55:40 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: mili -:- Sun, Dec 21, 1997 at 11:18:09 (EST)
___there is another point -:- you might be overlooking -:- Sun, Dec 21, 1997 at 11:29:06 (EST)
___Sir David -:- Re: you might be overlooking -:- Sun, Dec 21, 1997 at 12:01:25 (EST)
___milificent -:- the great -:- Sun, Dec 21, 1997 at 16:00:04 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: the great -:- Sun, Dec 21, 1997 at 16:03:01 (EST)
___his -:- lordship sir david -:- Sun, Dec 21, 1997 at 16:05:32 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!what? -:- Sun, Dec 21, 1997 at 18:07:18 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!what? -:- Sun, Dec 21, 1997 at 19:05:06 (EST)
___uh -:- yup -:- Mon, Dec 22, 1997 at 01:58:46 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: yup -:- Mon, Dec 22, 1997 at 02:15:21 (EST)
___sheesh -:- mili -:- Mon, Dec 22, 1997 at 02:45:43 (EST)
___op -:- Re: !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!what? -:- Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 18:31:25 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!what? -:- Wed, Dec 24, 1997 at 00:16:14 (EST)
John Cavad -:- World Peace -:- Sat, Dec 20, 1997 at 19:50:16 (EST)
___Rick -:- Re: World Peace -:- Sat, Dec 20, 1997 at 20:04:11 (EST)
___John Cavad -:- Re: World Peace -:- Sat, Dec 20, 1997 at 20:17:41 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: World Peace -:- Sat, Dec 20, 1997 at 20:41:07 (EST)
___Mike -:- All the saber shaking aside... -:- Sat, Dec 20, 1997 at 21:25:39 (EST)
___katie -:- Re: All the saber shaking aside... -:- Sat, Dec 20, 1997 at 21:37:49 (EST)
___Mike -:- Re: All the saber shaking aside... -:- Sat, Dec 20, 1997 at 22:13:08 (EST)
___op -:- Re: All the saber shaking aside... -:- Sun, Dec 21, 1997 at 00:06:34 (EST)
___bftb -:- Re: World Peace -:- Sun, Dec 21, 1997 at 15:02:09 (EST)
Nigel -:- Lord of the Unicorns (reprise) -:- Sat, Dec 20, 1997 at 16:34:25 (EST)
___Mike -:- One more time!!! -:- Sat, Dec 20, 1997 at 16:50:54 (EST)
___Mike -:- Waiting the Word of the Master??? -:- Sat, Dec 20, 1997 at 16:58:38 (EST)
___Sir David -:- Calling all cars -:- Sat, Dec 20, 1997 at 20:57:10 (EST)
___Mike -:- Dam, we're busted and don't even have a piano! -:- Sat, Dec 20, 1997 at 21:07:25 (EST)
___op -:- Re: Lord of the Unicorns (reprise) -:- Sat, Dec 20, 1997 at 23:52:45 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: Lord of the Unicorns (reprise) -:- Sun, Dec 21, 1997 at 02:02:37 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: Lord of the Unicorns (reprise) -:- Sun, Dec 21, 1997 at 02:11:14 (EST)
___Sir David -:- Re: Lord of the Unicorns (reprise) -:- Sun, Dec 21, 1997 at 04:44:56 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: Lord of the Unicorns (reprise) -:- Sun, Dec 21, 1997 at 07:09:53 (EST)
___op - off topic -:- Re: Lord of the Unicorns (reprise) -:- Sun, Dec 21, 1997 at 09:23:16 (EST)
___Mike -:- Re: Lord of the Unicorns (reprise) -:- Sun, Dec 21, 1997 at 10:27:50 (EST)
Michael -:- Chatty Kinda Post -:- Sat, Dec 20, 1997 at 00:50:21 (EST)
pussy -:- patch -:- Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 23:00:53 (EST)
___CD -:- Re: patch -:- Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 23:34:23 (EST)
John Cavad -:- Publicity -:- Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 17:06:08 (EST)
___John K. -:- Re: Publicity -:- Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 17:33:49 (EST)
___d@vid -:- Re: Publicity -:- Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 18:01:05 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: Publicity -:- Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 18:15:39 (EST)
___d@vid -:- Re: Publicity -:- Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 18:22:10 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: Publicity -:- Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 18:26:00 (EST)
___John Cavad -:- Re: Publicity -:- Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 19:09:35 (EST)
___John Cavad -:- Re: Publicity -:- Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 19:09:57 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: Publicity -:- Sat, Dec 20, 1997 at 20:53:07 (EST)
___John Cavad -:- Re: Publicity -:- Mon, Dec 22, 1997 at 13:09:48 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: Publicity -:- Mon, Dec 22, 1997 at 19:59:15 (EST)
___John Cavad -:- Re: Publicity -:- Mon, Dec 22, 1997 at 23:03:06 (EST)
John K. -:- Sex -:- Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 16:39:20 (EST)
___CD -:- Re: Sex -:- Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 16:49:49 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: Sex -:- Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 17:20:06 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: Sex -:- Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 17:20:19 (EST)
___John K. -:- Re: Sex -:- Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 17:29:57 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: Sex -:- Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 17:45:00 (EST)
___JW -- Freudian Correction -:- Re: Sex -:- Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 17:48:56 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: Sex -:- Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 17:55:51 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: Sex -:- Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 18:41:08 (EST)
___John Cavad -:- Re: Sex -:- Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 19:20:02 (EST)
___Sir David -:- Re: Sex -:- Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 20:13:54 (EST)
___John K. -:- Re: Sex -:- Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 22:49:09 (EST)
___Insomniac Sir David -:- Re: Sex -:- Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 23:10:39 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: Sex -:- Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 23:49:03 (EST)
___Sir David -:- Re: Sex -:- Sat, Dec 20, 1997 at 07:27:26 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: Sex -:- Sat, Dec 20, 1997 at 17:55:54 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: Sex -:- Sat, Dec 20, 1997 at 20:48:35 (EST)
Katie -:- Service? -:- Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 16:14:20 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: Service? -:- Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 18:50:28 (EST)
___Mr Ex -:- Re: Service? -:- Sat, Dec 20, 1997 at 05:08:54 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: Service? -:- Sat, Dec 20, 1997 at 07:04:59 (EST)
___however you look at the power, -:- two things occupy the same space -:- Sat, Dec 20, 1997 at 10:09:57 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: two things occupy the same space -:- Sat, Dec 20, 1997 at 13:29:12 (EST)
___CD -:- Re: Service? -:- Sat, Dec 20, 1997 at 14:14:20 (EST)
___thousands -:- and thousands -:- Sat, Dec 20, 1997 at 14:15:47 (EST)
___op -:- Re: Service? -:- Sat, Dec 20, 1997 at 22:49:24 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: Service? -:- Sat, Dec 20, 1997 at 23:01:25 (EST)
___op -:- Re: Service? -:- Sat, Dec 20, 1997 at 23:28:45 (EST)
___op -:- Re: Service? -:- Sun, Dec 21, 1997 at 00:36:04 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: Service? -:- Sun, Dec 21, 1997 at 01:54:00 (EST)
___op -:- Re: Service? -:- Sun, Dec 21, 1997 at 09:15:31 (EST)
John Cavad -:- He thinks he's God? -:- Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 14:47:59 (EST)
___Brian -:- Re: He thinks he's God? -:- Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 15:50:50 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: He thinks he's God? -:- Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 18:44:42 (EST)
___John Cavad -:- Re: He thinks he's God? -:- Sat, Dec 20, 1997 at 19:38:08 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: He thinks he's God? -:- Sat, Dec 20, 1997 at 19:51:14 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: He thinks he's God? -:- Sat, Dec 20, 1997 at 20:31:12 (EST)
Nigel -:- Lord of the Unicorns -:- Thurs, Dec 18, 1997 at 22:34:34 (EST)
Nigel -:- Lord of the Unicorns -:- Thurs, Dec 18, 1997 at 22:35:05 (EST)
Nigel -:- Lord of the Unicorns -:- Thurs, Dec 18, 1997 at 22:35:53 (EST)
Nigel -:- Lord of the Unicorns -:- Thurs, Dec 18, 1997 at 22:36:32 (EST)
Nigel -:- Lord of the Unicorns -:- Thurs, Dec 18, 1997 at 22:36:57 (EST)
___Mr Ex -:- Re: Lord of the Unicorns -:- Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 04:41:48 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: Lord of the Unicorns -:- Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 14:28:15 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: Lord of the Unicorns -:- Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 17:17:37 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: Lord of the Unicorns -:- Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 17:23:18 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: Lord of the Unicorns -:- Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 17:29:43 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: Lord of the Unicorns -:- Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 17:29:47 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: Lord of the Unicorns -:- Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 17:31:34 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: Lord of the Unicorns -:- Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 17:36:43 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: Lord of the Unicorns -:- Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 17:37:07 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: Lord of the Unicorns -:- Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 17:41:06 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: Lord of the Unicorns -:- Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 17:43:36 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: Lord of the Unicorns -:- Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 17:45:25 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: Lord of the Unicorns -:- Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 17:47:54 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: Lord of the Unicorns -:- Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 17:49:24 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: Lord of the Unicorns -:- Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 17:52:51 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: Lord of the Unicorns -:- Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 17:53:10 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: Lord of the Unicorns -:- Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 17:59:24 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: Lord of the Unicorns -:- Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 18:00:08 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: Lord of the Unicorns -:- Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 18:05:27 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: Lord of the Unicorns -:- Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 18:10:00 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: Lord of the Unicorns -:- Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 18:11:07 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: Lord of the Unicorns -:- Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 18:16:33 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: Lord of the Unicorns -:- Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 18:17:46 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: Lord of the Unicorns -:- Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 18:21:07 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: Lord of the Unicorns -:- Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 18:24:10 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: Lord of the Unicorns -:- Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 18:29:18 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: Lord of the Unicorns -:- Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 18:33:19 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: Lord of the Unicorns -:- Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 18:34:08 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: Lord of the Unicorns -:- Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 18:38:54 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: Lord of the Unicorns -:- Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 18:45:25 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: Lord of the Unicorns -:- Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 18:47:06 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: Lord of the Unicorns -:- Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 18:57:45 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: Lord of the Unicorns -:- Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 18:58:46 (EST)
___Michael -:- Re: Lord of the Unicorns -:- Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 19:06:25 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: Lord of the Unicorns -:- Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 19:06:49 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: Lord of the Unicorns -:- Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 19:13:49 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: Lord of the Unicorns -:- Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 19:25:20 (EST)
___Insomniac Sir David -:- Re: Lord of the Unicorns -:- Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 22:59:03 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: Lord of the Unicorns -:- Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 22:59:11 (EST)
___Michael -:- Re: Lord of the Unicorns -:- Sat, Dec 20, 1997 at 00:25:48 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: Lord of the Unicorns -:- Sat, Dec 20, 1997 at 01:03:22 (EST)
___bftb -:- Re: Lord of the Unicorns -:- Sat, Dec 20, 1997 at 15:28:04 (EST)
___bftb -:- Re: Lord of the Unicorns -:- Sat, Dec 20, 1997 at 15:57:54 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: Lord of the Unicorns -:- Sat, Dec 20, 1997 at 16:28:07 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: Lord of the Unicorns -:- Sat, Dec 20, 1997 at 16:33:26 (EST)
___bftb -:- off topic:musicRe: Lord of the Unicorns -:- Sat, Dec 20, 1997 at 18:43:41 (EST)
___katie -:- Re: Lord of the Unicorns -:- Sat, Dec 20, 1997 at 18:47:54 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: off topic:musicLord of the Unicorns -:- Sat, Dec 20, 1997 at 19:34:53 (EST)
___bftb -:- Re: off topic:musicLord of the Unicorns -:- Sat, Dec 20, 1997 at 22:36:52 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: off topic:musicLord of the Unicorns -:- Sat, Dec 20, 1997 at 23:30:37 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: Lord of the Unicorns -:- Sun, Dec 21, 1997 at 02:13:28 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: Lord of the Unicorns -:- Sun, Dec 21, 1997 at 02:25:46 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: Lord of the Unicorns -:- Sun, Dec 21, 1997 at 02:48:44 (EST)
___ katie - totally off topic -:- Re: Lord of the Unicorns -:- Sun, Dec 21, 1997 at 02:53:23 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: Lord of the Unicorns -:- Sun, Dec 21, 1997 at 02:58:51 (EST)
___Katie off topic totally -:- Re: Lord of the Unicorns -:- Sun, Dec 21, 1997 at 03:04:48 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: Lord of the Unicorns -:- Sun, Dec 21, 1997 at 03:08:05 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: Lord of the Unicorns -:- Sun, Dec 21, 1997 at 03:11:37 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: Lord of the Unicorns -:- Sun, Dec 21, 1997 at 03:18:39 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: Lord of the Unicorns -:- Sun, Dec 21, 1997 at 03:19:45 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: Lord of the Unicorns -:- Sun, Dec 21, 1997 at 03:24:59 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: Lord of the Unicorns -:- Sun, Dec 21, 1997 at 03:27:25 (EST)
___Katie totally off topic -:- Re: Lord of the Unicorns -:- Sun, Dec 21, 1997 at 03:34:59 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: Lord of the Unicorns -:- Sun, Dec 21, 1997 at 13:36:41 (EST)
David Simpkiss -:- Nothing less than God -:- Thurs, Dec 18, 1997 at 21:23:21 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: Nothing less than God -:- Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 06:18:49 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: Nothing less than God -:- Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 09:04:24 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: Nothing less than God -:- Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 09:49:57 (EST)
___Sir David -:- Re: Nothing less than God -:- Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 10:31:48 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: Nothing less than God -:- Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 10:58:49 (EST)
___Sir David -:- Re: Nothing less than God -:- Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 12:02:48 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: Nothing less than God -:- Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 14:11:33 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: Nothing less than God -:- Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 14:22:27 (EST)
___Sir David -:- Re: Nothing less than God -:- Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 14:43:47 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: Nothing less than God -:- Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 15:13:43 (EST)
___Sir David -:- Re: Nothing less than God -:- Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 19:58:01 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: Nothing less than God -:- Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 20:07:55 (EST)
___Sir David -:- Re: Nothing less than God -:- Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 20:27:49 (EST)
Katie -:- Premies posting on the Net? -:- Thurs, Dec 18, 1997 at 09:23:06 (EST)
___Mike -:- Re: Premies posting on the Net? -:- Thurs, Dec 18, 1997 at 09:45:16 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: Premies posting on the Net? -:- Thurs, Dec 18, 1997 at 09:58:32 (EST)
___Rick -:- Re: Premies posting on the Net? -:- Thurs, Dec 18, 1997 at 10:26:53 (EST)
___Mike -:- Re: Premies posting on the Net? -:- Thurs, Dec 18, 1997 at 10:37:09 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: Premies posting on the Net? -:- Thurs, Dec 18, 1997 at 12:40:52 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: Premies posting on the Net? -:- Thurs, Dec 18, 1997 at 15:28:26 (EST)
___d@vid -:- Bye, bye Masher -:- Thurs, Dec 18, 1997 at 16:42:55 (EST)
___Brian -:- Re: Premies posting on the Net? -:- Thurs, Dec 18, 1997 at 22:57:11 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: Premies posting on the Net? -:- Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 01:12:51 (EST)
David Simpkiss -:- Those presences -:- Thurs, Dec 18, 1997 at 02:17:16 (EST)
___op -:- Re: Those presences -:- Thurs, Dec 18, 1997 at 02:58:44 (EST)
___David Simpkiss -:- Re: Those presences -:- Thurs, Dec 18, 1997 at 03:19:11 (EST)
___op -:- Re: Those presences -:- Thurs, Dec 18, 1997 at 04:08:01 (EST)
___Mr Ex -:- Re: Those presences -:- Thurs, Dec 18, 1997 at 04:49:56 (EST)
___David Simpkiss -:- Re: Those presences -:- Thurs, Dec 18, 1997 at 06:58:53 (EST)
___Brian -:- Re: Those presences -:- Thurs, Dec 18, 1997 at 08:43:00 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: Those presences -:- Thurs, Dec 18, 1997 at 09:27:08 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: Those presences -:- Thurs, Dec 18, 1997 at 10:10:40 (EST)
___Mike -:- Re: Those presences -:- Thurs, Dec 18, 1997 at 10:22:38 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: Those presences -:- Thurs, Dec 18, 1997 at 10:43:42 (EST)
___John K. -:- Re: Those presences -:- Thurs, Dec 18, 1997 at 10:56:23 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: Those presences -:- Thurs, Dec 18, 1997 at 11:46:27 (EST)
___John K. -:- Re: Those presences -:- Thurs, Dec 18, 1997 at 12:11:13 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: Those presences -:- Thurs, Dec 18, 1997 at 12:16:14 (EST)
___Sir David -:- Re: Those presences -:- Thurs, Dec 18, 1997 at 14:25:28 (EST)
___Michael -:- Re: Those presences -:- Thurs, Dec 18, 1997 at 14:39:00 (EST)
___jerome -:- Re: Those presences -:- Thurs, Dec 18, 1997 at 15:52:56 (EST)
___jerome -:- Re: Those presences -:- Thurs, Dec 18, 1997 at 15:53:29 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: Those presences -:- Thurs, Dec 18, 1997 at 16:57:57 (EST)
___Brian -:- Re: Those presences -:- Thurs, Dec 18, 1997 at 17:14:17 (EST)
___jerome -:- Re: Those presences -:- Thurs, Dec 18, 1997 at 22:35:35 (EST)
___CD -:- Re: Those presences -:- Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 00:36:54 (EST)
___CD -:- Re: Those presences -:- Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 00:45:43 (EST)
___Mr Ex -:- Re: Those presences -:- Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 11:06:59 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: Those presences -:- Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 11:27:09 (EST)
___Michael -:- Re: Those presences -:- Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 12:08:37 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: Those presences -:- Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 14:32:19 (EST)
___Michael -:- Re: Those presences -:- Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 14:49:37 (EST)
___Rick -:- Re: Those presences -:- Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 14:58:54 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: Those presences -:- Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 15:08:12 (EST)
___Brian -:- Re: Those presences -:- Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 15:43:37 (EST)
___bftb -:- Re: Those presences -:- Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 15:57:10 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: Those presences -:- Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 16:16:15 (EST)
___Michael -:- Re: Those presences -:- Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 18:34:34 (EST)
___CD -:- Re: Those presences -:- Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 23:10:46 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: Those presences -:- Sat, Dec 20, 1997 at 02:52:18 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: Those presences -:- Sat, Dec 20, 1997 at 06:57:24 (EST)
___op -:- Re: Those presences -:- Sat, Dec 20, 1997 at 21:30:15 (EST)
___op -:- Re: Those presences -:- Sat, Dec 20, 1997 at 21:40:46 (EST)
___Michael -:- Re: Those presences -:- Sat, Dec 20, 1997 at 23:03:24 (EST)
Date: Mon, Dec 22, 1997 at 02:34:06 (EST)
Poster: annie come on,
Email: bb
To: Everyone
Subject: this is your thread
Message:
Annie, we all start fresh every few days,
don't be shy, go ahead and wish us merry christmas
or whatever.
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Date: Mon, Dec 22, 1997 at 10:32:56 (EST)
Poster: Annie
Email: aerily@aol.com
To: annie come on,
Subject: Re: this is your thread
Message:
...................Merry Christmas...................
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Date: Mon, Dec 22, 1997 at 14:32:02 (EST)
Poster: Annie
Email: aerily@aol.com
To: bb
Subject: What I walked out of that room with (Re: this is your thread)
Message:
I feel, often,
stirring within myself,
a feeling of great love.
It is not connected
to an object or a person;
it seems to be a sensation
which is complete in itself.
When I feel this feeling,
it is an experience of stillness,
powerful quietness,
a symphony of silence;
no movement of mind or body
or the world around me
seems to affect the feeling;
it is as if time itself
stands still, and I with it.
For me, it is the essence of
what I know to be beauty.
It is beauty itself;
it is like the feeling inspired
by great works of art
or music or in nature.
It is like awe, it is like gratitude.
Many times in the midst of
my life, my cranky thoughts,
my busy business and
million distractions,
I get a sense of this "feeling" within me,
as if it has a voice,
whispering to me: psst... hey...
as if it has hands,
tapping my shoulder,
touching me gently,
reminding me of its own sweetness
and the lovemaking
which awaits me there,
within myself.
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Date: Mon, Dec 22, 1997 at 17:51:42 (EST)
Poster: happy holidays
Email: bb
To: Annie
Subject: to you too. (Re: this is your thread)
Message:
wow annie,
thats really good exprssion.
I have to reread that a few times.
thanks and by the way we are getting snow again
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Date: Sun, Dec 21, 1997 at 22:20:59 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email: joger02 @aol.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Maharaji MTV Music Video (Rerun)
Message:
I watched this pair of videos again, and thought I would reprint my video review. I edited it slightly, but for those of you who have seen it, I'm letting you know in advance so you can skip it if you want to..
So, I re-watched a combination of two videos of Guru Maharaj Ji or Maharaji, last night, and again, it was eerily familiar. I probably have watched and listened to thousands of hours of Maharaji's satsangs, or speeches, over the 10 years I was a premie.
The first segment started out with a sequence of a flower (undoubtedly a lotus) opening, first in black and white, and then in color, with new age music in the background. The rest of the video consisted of shots of clouds and a bird flying and with Maharaji walking, with the video ALWAYS in slow motion and always shot on his back. Occasionally, his squeaky voice would interrupt the music to talk about "that place," "that love," and "that joy." I got the impression that showing him walk in real time would be less "spiritual," and it appeared that the back shots were a compromise: his big ass was considered less unflattering than his protruding gut, which did, nevertheless, warrant a side shot near the end.
The second video was of a program in Long Beach in 1996. I would note that appearance-wise, Maharaji doesn't look all that different than I recall "Guru Maharaj Ji" looked 15 years ago, except for the receding hairline and the fact that his eyes have become very, very puffy (his eyes are, literally, nothing but slits) and he has more bags under his eyes than you could find in the luggage department in Macys.
Speaking-wise, he still talks very, very slowly, and still basically says the same things over and over. For example, he might say: "that love is within you" (long pause); then he repeats: "within you" (long pause); then he turns it around: "it is YOU it is within" (long pause); then he repeats with another emphasis: "it is WITHIN you" (long pause); then he repeats again: "it is within you ALL the time" (long pause); repeats: "ALL the time" (long pause); "it has never NOT been within you all the time" (long pause). Well, anyway, you get the idea. This goes on for most of his speech and such sequences usually end with the words, rising even higher in pitch: "and it's so beautiful."
Accordingly, he says very, very, little, very, very, slowly with a lot of pauses, and no "ums" or "ahs," and so what he says sounds profound, or something that might come from "the Master." [In this video, he referred to himself as "The Master." He did not use the word "perfect" in connection with "the master," but, by using the word "the" (as opposed to "a") he has much the same effect.]
He said a total of about twenty or fewer statements throughout his speech, and for each one, he paused, repeated, paused, re-stated, paused, re-emphasized, paused, repeated. That was basically it. That, and talking about the soap operas he used to watch "every day" until he got bored, and a television commerical he saw for popcorn that refelected, he thought, the false concepts people have about heaven which they get from religions, which he denigrated as the beliefs of dead perfect masters.
And that's also how I always remembered him speaking at programs. He apparently learned that speaking process as a young "perfect master," or as a "perfect-master-in-training," and he appears to have not wavered from it, as far as I can tell.
As for the minuscule about of "content" in what he says, he still basically says that you experience a "beautiful place" when you meditate on your breath, and that you should do that as much as possible. But there is apparently a big contradiction here. He says it is extremely easy to do this, and it is so pleasurable and beautiful, but we get easily distracted, even from something so plesurable and beautiful, and so it is very hard to do this. So, we have to turn to "The Master" to help us. So, therefore, we REALLY need HIM -- (to do WHAT is never really said). He did not say, like he used to all the time, that we should PRAY to him for his "grace" to be able to do this, but since he didn't otherwise say how HE fit in, except as an object of devotion, I think the praying and grace parts are implied.
In fact, he said that one should do this to the exclusion of other things. He said: "[w]hy would people want to get involved with other things when there is something so beautiful inside?" [Well, probably because there is other stuff to do, but, also, in my experience, Maharaji is a poor example of following this guideline, getting "involved" in things as petty as soap operas, cars, planes, expensive clothes, flying kites and watching TV. By my experience is also that many premies follow his example and do almost zero to help others or the world. They tend, as he suggests, to focus ONLY on themselves and THEIR experience, and, of course, on Maharaji, with justification from him as to why that is okay.
It is also clear from the video that Maharaji and a lot of the premies are still VERY much into devotion to, and worship of, Maharaji, except I noticed that what Maharaji used to call "devotion," he now calls "gratitude." He used to say that when you receive knowledge from Maharaji, you don't get the COMPLETE and REAL experience until you DEVOTE (and SURRENDER) yourself 100% to him. Only then do you get the COMPLETE experience of the "so beautiful" knowledge. He even went through a period when he hardly talked about KNOWLEDGE, and only talked about the path of DEVOTION which required SURRENDER to him.
Now he says that you receive knowledge from "The Master" and then you express "GRATITUDE" (to him) and that gives you a more complete experience of knowledge. The equivalence of these two terms is emphasized by the songs sung to Maharaji by the premies during the program, all but one of which premies were singing to him 15 or 20 years ago during his blatant "devotion and surrender" period.
One such song is that One Fountation number that goes: "please, please, please teach me devotion; oh Maharaji, please, please, please, I'm ready to start....he (M) is pure and his love is deeper than the ocean...."
Note that these songs are now sung by M's daughter (Dayalata?) who has a nice voice but is a bit on the chunky-side. Also, Kim Fields, the erstwhile singer from One Foundation seems a little miffed at being relegated for much of the program to being a back-up singer, but when it's god's kid who's upstaging you, how can you complain?
Another song is even older, but one word has been changed: the word "satguru" has been changed to "maharaji," apparently in line with the obliteration of the word "guru" everywhere, including in Mahraji's name. It goes, in part:
"He's our own Maharaji (used to be "satguru")
And we love him
He is brighter than a thousand seas
shining in the sun
He is pure and fresh as the early morning dew
He is lila, lila
And his game has just begun
We are streams flowing down to his ocean
And all we feel for him is pure devotion."
So, get the idea? Maharaji doesn't use the word "devotion" as much anymore, but it's still the basic principle of his trip that you don't really get what he offers, unless you have devotion (aka gratitude) to him. Some things don't change, just the window-dressing does.
Kim did get to sing the lead on "When Will I Dance With You Again," that reggae song we also sang to him 20 years ago. She sang for awhile and the premies stood and waived their arms in the air and pleaded with Maharaji to dance, and he acted coy for awhile and then he stood up, threw his hands up in the air, and did a very awkward, 30-second, "dance." The premies in the half-empty hall went ape-shit just like they used to. Then he waddled off the stage. A pan of the audience showed some people crying with their faces in their hands.
My basic impression is that he is trying in some limited ways to be more relatable by not wearing crowns or krishna costumes, and he didn't sit on a throne like he used to (although he still sat in the middle of the stage on a dais, but the chair did not have a high back on it like a throne). He also did not call himself "perfect" or use words like "devotion," and he didn't say SURRENDER even once, which was a real mantra of his for years. But the basic idea is still the same:
"I am THE MASTER and you are not. You are the devotees and you are somewhat less stupid than most of the rest of the people in the world, who are even more stupid than you because they do not recognize me for what I am, which is THE (only) (PERFECT) MASTER, and you should recognize me, receive knowledge and have ETERNAL GRATITUDE (aka "devotion") to me, or you will not experience the true, complete, "so beautiful" love within, inside, you. And, of course, "gratitude/devotion" can be demonstrated by coming to programs, kissing my feet, buying videos, sending money, and responding to "fund-raisers" for various things that I want."
The end.
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Date: Mon, Dec 22, 1997 at 10:19:59 (EST)
Poster: John Kreilkamp
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: Maharaji MTV Music Video (Rerun)
Message:
Joe, you are so totally absolutely in your MIND!
How far you have fallen!
you are looking at the master through rose colored glasses, and naturallly all you are seeing is a reflection of YOUR hatred and YOUR confusion...
you need to approach the master as a child, a child with no guile, with no pretense, with no preconceptions, with no intellect and no intelligence
You are actually listening to his words as if they are supposed to have some MEANING, your supposed to open your HEART, you are supposed to bow down and beg for mercy and forgiveness
you can't judge the MASTER the way you judge the rest of the clowns in this universe!
how dare you come to M with expectations!
You expect ordinary wisdom, what m is giving is beyond the intellect, the true wisdom can not be defined and described by mere words, words are a product of the mind
hey you know i could give satsang again, no prob, i can feel the juices starting to flow, it's soooooooooooo beautiful!
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Date: Mon, Dec 22, 1997 at 13:01:47 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: John Kreilkamp
Subject: Re: Maharaji MTV Music Video (Rerun)
Message:
Oh, John, how could I have been so in my mind!!! Please help me, Guru Maharaj Ji, to see you as the divine incarnation of god that you are! It is only at your lotus feet, preferably kissing your lotus feet, that I am truly alive!
Yes, oh lord, everything bad that happens is MY fault, and of course, all that is good and beautiful it due to YOU! I know I have a lot of nerve to actually listen to what you are saying.
Your humble, servant -- Joe (the confused slime of the earth!)
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Date: Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 00:44:17 (EST)
Poster: Q
Email:
To: All
Subject: Re: Maharaji MTV Music Video (Rerun)
Message:
If you guys are so anti Maharaji why do you spend so mutch time talking about him. You do yourself a disservice by mocking something you once believed in. What possible constructive value is there in it?
Maharaji showed me something that none of you could have done. What possible harm is he doing? He is not forcing anyone to receive his knowledge. If you loved him in the past then why have you turned against him? He is only trying to make people's lives richer. How many of you have the answer for someone who is genuinely looking for an inner enrichment beyond the normal everyday existence? How many of you could sit in front of an audience of thousands and bring joy to people's hearts.
You offer nothing but negativity.
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Date: Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 01:13:22 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: Q
Subject: Re: Maharaji MTV Music Video (Rerun)
Message:
If you guys are so anti Maharaji why do you spend so mutch time talking about him. You do yourself a disservice by mocking something you once believed in. What possible constructive value is there in it?
Maharaji showed me something that none of you could have done. What possible harm is he doing? He is not forcing anyone to receive his knowledge. If you loved him in the past then why have you turned against him? He is only trying to make people's lives richer. How many of you have the answer for someone who is genuinely looking for an inner enrichment beyond the normal everyday existence? How many of you could sit in front of an audience of thousands and bring joy to people's hearts.
You offer nothing but negativity.
Do you want this is 25 words or less?
First, there is no monolithic viewpoint among ex-premies. I think the vast majority of ex-premies (by the way there are many more ex-premies than there are premies) have forgotten the whole thing and moved on. I did for most of the time after I left being a premie.
But for me, it's also important to understand what my 10-year involvement with him was about, and that's why I talk about it with other ex-premies. Not so hard to understand, now is it? There is "value" in that and I also think there is "value" in discussing what a lot of wavering premies and new ex-premies don't really hear anywhere else, but might be able to see here. That is, people thinking for themselves about Maharaji and his cult.
And there is that awful "N-word" again: "negativity." Such a horrible thing in the premie world. The label for all that is uncomfortable or confronting.
I won't argue with your personal, subjective experience, nor do I argue with what you say you think Maharaji is doing. I just think you shouldn't complain that others, like me, have had a very different experience with Maharaji and view him quite differently. I won't go into that here, because I think the posts on this forum sum those viewpoints up fairly well.
As far as sitting in front of an audience and bringing "joy to people's hearts" I agree that I have never done that to my knowledge, but then I've never tried either. I will say, though, that I've been to a lot of music performances that did that for me, and I didn't pranam to the musicians either.
I just stood and aplauded. I also went to a screening of "Mommie Dearest" on Friday night and it made me laugh and brought joy to my heart. I also experienced a "group high" there, just like I did at programs Maharaji conducted.
JW
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Date: Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 16:17:22 (EST)
Poster: bftb
Email:
To: Q
Subject: Re: Maharaji MTV Music Video (Rerun)
Message:
If you guys are so anti Maharaji why do you spend so mutch time talking about him. You do yourself a disservice by mocking something you once believed in. What possible constructive value is there in it?
Maharaji showed me something that none of you could have done. What possible harm is he doing? He is not forcing anyone to receive his knowledge. If you loved him in the past then why have you turned against him? He is only trying to make people's lives richer. How many of you have the answer for someone who is genuinely looking for an inner enrichment beyond the normal everyday existence? How many of you could sit in front of an audience of thousands and bring joy to people's hearts.
You offer nothing but negativity.
Warning:Negativity ahead!Disclaimer:I'll play devils advocate here,also some very cynical sarcastic humor/commentary coming up,I couldn't resist.
"He is only trying to make peoples lives richer" right,and those people all share the surname Rowat.
"How many of you have the answer for someone who is genuinely looking for an inner enrichment beyond the normal everyday existence?" How many?There are infinite wolves in sheeps clothing on this earth.Some wolves even genuinely believe themselves to be sheep.
A very natural by-product of being human is that we 'want something more'.Very few claim that they can provide the void filler for us.It's funny how many of those who claim to be able to fill the void are so very financially rich because of those claims.Kinda makes ya wonder,don't it?
Funnier still is that the richest ones are often those who 'never demand any money from anyone' they just recieve loads of 'gifts'-not their fault right?Hmmmmmm.
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Date: Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 19:11:01 (EST)
Poster: op
Email:
To: John Kreilkamp
Subject: Re: Maharaji MTV Music Video (Rerun)
Message:
Joe, you are so totally absolutely in your MIND!
How far you have fallen!
you are looking at the master through rose colored glasses, and naturallly all you are seeing is a reflection of YOUR hatred and YOUR confusion...
you need to approach the master as a child, a child with no guile, with no pretense, with no preconceptions, with no intellect and no intelligence
You are actually listening to his words as if they are supposed to have some MEANING, your supposed to open your HEART, you are supposed to bow down and beg for mercy and forgiveness
you can't judge the MASTER the way you judge the rest of the clowns in this universe!
how dare you come to M with expectations!
You expect ordinary wisdom, what m is giving is beyond the intellect, the true wisdom can not be defined and described by mere words, words are a product of the mind
hey you know i could give satsang again, no prob, i can feel the juices starting to flow, it's soooooooooooo beautiful!
Now maybe you know why M stopped satsang from 'regular' folks.
Of course, maybe you still don't get it.
Aside to JW: Keep in mind, the next time you watch a video, that anywhere from 1/4 to 3/4 of those listening to M, depending on where he's speaking, don't speak English. There is translation going on (18 languages at the last Long Beach event), and at large international events, a lot of the translators need some extra time to switch syntax, etc. I think M is very sensitive to this. I guess what you need to see is a small, local event that only English-speakers attended. But that's hard to find these days.
Of course, considering some of your evident prejudices, in order to make the events acceptable to you, all those attending should speak perfect English, be between 5'2 and 5'7 (for women) or 5'8 and 6'2 (for men), and not weigh more than 10 lbs above the AMA's suggested weight. And perhaps they should all have college degrees, make over $25,000/yr, and have at least one WASP parent. Would that help?
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Date: Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 19:54:14 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: op
Subject: Re: Maharaji MTV Music Video (Rerun)
Message:
Joe, you are so totally absolutely in your MIND!
How far you have fallen!
you are looking at the master through rose colored glasses, and naturallly all you are seeing is a reflection of YOUR hatred and YOUR confusion...
you need to approach the master as a child, a child with no guile, with no pretense, with no preconceptions, with no intellect and no intelligence
You are actually listening to his words as if they are supposed to have some MEANING, your supposed to open your HEART, you are supposed to bow down and beg for mercy and forgiveness
you can't judge the MASTER the way you judge the rest of the clowns in this universe!
how dare you come to M with expectations!
You expect ordinary wisdom, what m is giving is beyond the intellect, the true wisdom can not be defined and described by mere words, words are a product of the mind
hey you know i could give satsang again, no prob, i can feel the juices starting to flow, it's soooooooooooo beautiful!
Now maybe you know why M stopped satsang from 'regular' folks.
Of course, maybe you still don't get it.
Aside to JW: Keep in mind, the next time you watch a video, that anywhere from 1/4 to 3/4 of those listening to M, depending on where he's speaking, don't speak English. There is translation going on (18 languages at the last Long Beach event), and at large international events, a lot of the translators need some extra time to switch syntax, etc. I think M is very sensitive to this. I guess what you need to see is a small, local event that only English-speakers attended. But that's hard to find these days.
Of course, considering some of your evident prejudices, in order to make the events acceptable to you, all those attending should speak perfect English, be between 5'2 and 5'7 (for women) or 5'8 and 6'2 (for men), and not weigh more than 10 lbs above the AMA's suggested weight. And perhaps they should all have college degrees, make over $25,000/yr, and have at least one WASP parent. Would that help?
Huh? I'm sure that video was carefully edited to present the best picture possible, such as it is.
The rest of your post is non-responsive (as we say in the legal world). I don't believe I made any references whatsoever to the audience, except that some were crying with their faces in their hands. My comments were directed to the lord and what he said only, and, to a limited degree to the singers of those sappy devotional songs. As far as I know, he doesn't allow anyone else to upstage him.
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Date: Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 22:13:20 (EST)
Poster: op
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: Maharaji MTV Music Video (Rerun)
Message:
You didn't make references to the audience - I did. What I meant to imply (perhaps a little too cynically) is that you have great prejudice against those who are overweight or undersized by general USA standards. And then I went on to imply that perhaps you think he should not make any special allowances for those who don't speak English, but should limit his audiences to the yuppie crowd.
As for the editing - individual segments are not edited for content. The items that are edited out, as I mentioned on another thread, are things that might be taken out of context - subtopics that are funny (sometimes outrageous) at the time, but don't have anything to do with Knowledge, and might be misinterpreted.
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Date: Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 23:09:22 (EST)
Poster: John K.
Email:
To: op
Subject: Re: Maharaji MTV Music Video (Rerun)
Message:
Dear OP:
Welll, to imply that I don't get it is an understatement.
Of course I don't get it anymore, that's why I have no interest in returning after being away for 15 years.
However, I did at one time GET it. I was a full fledged member, I was devoted. I got very high listening to ss from other people and giving it. I lived only to serve him.
Now, what happened to me?
the explanation from your point of view is that the guru finds the devotee and the guru discards the devotee.
so one explanation is that m kicked me out, not literally but inside of myself I suddenly had no more interest, at one point I was a real devotee of M and a few months later I was not. I did not consciously decide that, it just very naturally took place within me, a gradual awakening, or as you might say a gradual falling asleep. waking up is hard, it's hard to face one's real feelings.
now that I am on the OTHER side of the dream world of being devoted to m, it becomes very funny to think of m's message. It is very simplistic, and it is very boring when one is no longer hooked in.
I apologize because I am sure it must be offensive to someone still in his world, but one point of this forum is to share the non devotee perspective.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Wed, Dec 24, 1997 at 00:09:03 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: op
Subject: Re: Maharaji MTV Music Video (Rerun)
Message:
You didn't make references to the audience - I did. What I meant to imply (perhaps a little too cynically) is that you have great prejudice against those who are overweight or undersized by general USA standards. And then I went on to imply that perhaps you think he should not make any special allowances for those who don't speak English, but should limit his audiences to the yuppie crowd.
As for the editing - individual segments are not edited for content. The items that are edited out, as I mentioned on another thread, are things that might be taken out of context - subtopics that are funny (sometimes outrageous) at the time, but don't have anything to do with Knowledge, and might be misinterpreted.
I think I did mention that M is fat, but I was referring more to the great lengths those who shot the video went to not show is very large stomach. I did mention that it was "protruding" but that is obvious, regardless of what your "prejudice" toward him is. I don't think I have any prejudice against fat people in general. How do you know I don't weight 300 pounds myself? As to implications re non-English speakers, those are entirely yours and not mine, and frankly I still don't get the relevence of the statement.
As for what is edited and what isn',t on what evidence and personal knowledge do you base these all-knowing statements? Funny, if things unrelated to knowledge are edited out, how come that long section about his watching soap operas every day was left in? Hmmm. Did they miss that?
JW
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Date: Wed, Dec 24, 1997 at 00:55:05 (EST)
Poster: JJ
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: Maharaji MTV Music Video (Rerun)
Message:
You don't weigh 300 pounds because you run.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Wed, Dec 24, 1997 at 01:03:15 (EST)
Poster: KJ
Email:
To: JJ
Subject: Re: Maharaji MTV Music Video (Rerun)
Message:
You don't weigh 300 pounds because you run.
Yeah, but he's also 44 years old (!)
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Date: Wed, Dec 24, 1997 at 01:18:59 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: KJ
Subject: Re: Maharaji MTV Music Video (Rerun)
Message:
You don't weigh 300 pounds because you run.
Yeah, but he's also 44 years old (!)
Lies, all lies!
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Date: Wed, Dec 24, 1997 at 01:22:29 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: JJ
Subject: Re: Maharaji MTV Music Video (Rerun)
Message:
You don't weigh 300 pounds because you run.
Hi. Shouldn't you be asleep?
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Date: Wed, Dec 24, 1997 at 01:42:39 (EST)
Poster: Ms. Katie
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Happy Birthday, Joe (Re: Maharaji MTV Music Video (Rerun))
Message:
Hope it is a very happy one.
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Date: Wed, Dec 24, 1997 at 02:56:13 (EST)
Poster: op
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: Maharaji MTV Music Video (Rerun)
Message:
As to implications re non-English speakers, those are entirely yours and not mine, and frankly I still don't get the relevence of the statement.
Ok, let's take it in order:
You said,
Speaking-wise, he still talks very, very slowly, and still basically says the same things over and over. For example, he might say: 'that love is within you' (long pause); then he repeats: 'within you' (long pause); then he turns it around: 'it is YOU it is within' (long pause);
then he repeats with another emphasis: 'it is WITHIN you' (long pause); then he repeats again: 'it is within you ALL the time' (long pause); repeats: 'ALL the time' (long pause); 'it has never NOT been within you all the time' (long pause). Well, anyway, you get the idea.
I said:
Keep in mind, the next time you watch a video, that anywhere from 1/4 to 3/4 of those listening to M, depending on where he's speaking, don't speak English. There is translation going on (18 languages at the last Long Beach event), and at large international events, a lot of the
translators need some extra time to switch syntax, etc. I think M is very sensitive to this. I guess what you need to see is a small, local event that only English-speakers attended.
I hope you will admit, and I think most understand, that your original statement was laced with a good dose of hyperbole. The relevance was meant to be: he speaks slowly and repeats statements in a few different ways so that those who don't speak much English can understand him well.
And I followed this by saying that perhaps you should see him at an English-speakers only event, because he speaks much faster, punchier. Sometimes he speaks so fast that if there IS translation (for just a few people), it's hard for the translators to keep up.
Second point: I didn't say ALL things unrelated to Knowledge are edited out. Maybe the editing isn't the best, but the attempt is to keep things that are interesting but won't be misinterpreted OR won't insult people when videos are shown in other cultural millieus. For example, the Michael Jackson thing I mentioned before: he described how Jackson did a tour of India, and the shock wave that produced. Indians, when dancing, he said, move all parts of their bodies, but there are only certain accepted directions for those movements. When Michael Jackson moves his pelvis, it's not side to side like the Indians do, but back an forth thrusts, as we all know. M described this using his hands - that action was cut from the video. If it was insulting for the Indians to see Jackson doing it (he was nearly booted off stage), it would be nearly as upsetting in various cultural areas to have it described.
This is the sort of thing I meant.
A little clearer now?
Sorry - I was feeling a bit hot-headed. Anger tends to disrupt human beings' ability to communicate, I've noticed.
Happy Christmas anyway - ok?
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Date: Wed, Dec 24, 1997 at 03:18:19 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: op
Subject: Re: Maharaji MTV Music Video (Rerun)
Message:
As to implications re non-English speakers, those are entirely yours and not mine, and frankly I still don't get the relevence of the statement.
Ok, let's take it in order:
You said,
Speaking-wise, he still talks very, very slowly, and still basically says the same things over and over. For example, he might say: 'that love is within you' (long pause); then he repeats: 'within you' (long pause); then he turns it around: 'it is YOU it is within' (long pause);
then he repeats with another emphasis: 'it is WITHIN you' (long pause); then he repeats again: 'it is within you ALL the time' (long pause); repeats: 'ALL the time' (long pause); 'it has never NOT been within you all the time' (long pause). Well, anyway, you get the idea.
I said:
Keep in mind, the next time you watch a video, that anywhere from 1/4 to 3/4 of those listening to M, depending on where he's speaking, don't speak English. There is translation going on (18 languages at the last Long Beach event), and at large international events, a lot of the
translators need some extra time to switch syntax, etc. I think M is very sensitive to this. I guess what you need to see is a small, local event that only English-speakers attended.
I hope you will admit, and I think most understand, that your original statement was laced with a good dose of hyperbole. The relevance was meant to be: he speaks slowly and repeats statements in a few different ways so that those who don't speak much English can understand him well.
And I followed this by saying that perhaps you should see him at an English-speakers only event, because he speaks much faster, punchier. Sometimes he speaks so fast that if there IS translation (for just a few people), it's hard for the translators to keep up.
Second point: I didn't say ALL things unrelated to Knowledge are edited out. Maybe the editing isn't the best, but the attempt is to keep things that are interesting but won't be misinterpreted OR won't insult people when videos are shown in other cultural millieus. For example, the Michael Jackson thing I mentioned before: he described how Jackson did a tour of India, and the shock wave that produced. Indians, when dancing, he said, move all parts of their bodies, but there are only certain accepted directions for those movements. When Michael Jackson moves his pelvis, it's not side to side like the Indians do, but back an forth thrusts, as we all know. M described this using his hands - that action was cut from the video. If it was insulting for the Indians to see Jackson doing it (he was nearly booted off stage), it would be nearly as upsetting in various cultural areas to have it described.
This is the sort of thing I meant.
A little clearer now?
Sorry - I was feeling a bit hot-headed. Anger tends to disrupt human beings' ability to communicate, I've noticed.
Happy Christmas anyway - ok?
Well, OP you don't have to get upset, I just asked you to clarify as it wasn't clear to me and still isn't really, but let's just let it go. I responded not that translation isn't theoretically a possible reason he has spoken that way, slowly, with repeats and long pauses for the thousands of times I have heard him, in small and large events, but rather to your implication that I had something against people who are different from some sort of norm or who don't speak English. That's what didn't make any sense and still doesn't. As for the rest of it, well, okay, I guess. I just think the way he speaks is peculiar, and always have.
If you look down on the "help" thread a non-premie mentioned she went to a program and felt that M repeated the same phrases over and over when he spoke, so I'm not the only one who noticed that . After not hearing him speak in a really long time, that was my reaction as well, as you know.
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Date: Sun, Dec 21, 1997 at 20:57:18 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email: joger02@aol.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Joan Apter
Message:
Joan used to make me laugh. Anyone know what she's doing now? Still in the cult?
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Date: Mon, Dec 22, 1997 at 00:21:21 (EST)
Poster: joan of apter
Email: bb
To: JW
Subject: the windsurfer (Re: Joan Apter)
Message:
I helped Joan move to santa barbara california
about 4 years ago.
she had changed but I didn't know how or why.
I had said to her and Ira woods that we should find out
whenever maharaji was flying near the east coast and
have a program and invite him and just always be ready
for him to drop in. He had mentioned a few times about
just stopping in places.
He was always overflying the north east coast.
I was all enthused and saw how easily we could all
do it and it would be faceing the reality of
the possibility of him stopping in.
Ira and Joan just looked away and remained silent.
niether one would speak.
nothing, just quiet.
after a while one of them started some other topic.
I couldn't for the life of me understand.
Later, Ira during some other conversation said
it took him 1 year to recover from the 86 or 87
new york dinner gala dance.
I tape recorded the roast maharaji gave of some of the
premies, it was good.
There was a band that was going to play at the far end and
maharaji mentioned something about that.
The announcer booth dyess said maybe we could take turns
going and maharaji was done speaking and I moved quickly
over to the door leading to the music area. I held it open
and stood there. maharaji was undecided but saw me waiting
at the door and came on down. I watched his feet as he came
down the carpet at me. he went in and marolyn gave me this
exuberant 'thank you!'.
His valet came up to me and asked if I saw amar, that he was
missing, he quickly turned up.
maharaji went to the dj spot next to the band and
played a song and then played a black rythem sexual song
I dont remember at the moment but I know it.
he and mayrolyn walked into the crowd and so I hopped
on stage to see and make sure he was ok because the valet
staying with amar.
premies were standing motionless around him quite close
and it was tight some of the premies formed a small
circle around him and marolyn did a rubbing type
of dance with him, mostly her.
m gave some rough looks to some of the premies I could
tell by thier response, they would look away but remained
where they were.
at the end of the song they headed out so I went to the door
but they went through a kitchen door where there was some staff hanging out, marolyn was all sociable looking
but maharaji was pissed and the staff burst out laughing.
maybe it was the contrast, or maybe what works in the
small world of mission staff looks halarious to
regular folks, whatever, anyway, the coordinators of
the event caught hell.
Enough to take Ira 1 year to recover.
On the 707, we worked for endless hours on the ebony
wood trim that went throughout the plane, we sanded the
wood to 6 or 800 grit, then spray painted it with
clear coat. Then we wet sanded that to 1200 grit then
buffed it so there was no marks whatsoever. working from
9 am till the 2:30 am meal. For quite a while we were not allowed the break of satsang,at night because that cut into work time. When ever I would work at the residence that was also the rule.
Anyway, the first tour stop of the 707 was montreal.
I went, and it was freezing, REAL cold, and they turned the
airplane off and left it for a few days. The staff went in
and turned on the plane and the heat for a flight7 hours
later, and that was to fast a change and all the clear
coat blued. meaning it slightly separated from the wood.
giving it a slightly cloudy blue haze.
maharaji went absolutely (well you pick the adjetive),
and the poor guy who was in charge of the plane
caught so much endless hell that even I heard about it.
He ran away crushed sometime later.
we worked on a lot of that wood again.
But we were in a crushing rush because maharaji wanted
wall units built for his house and cabinets and the
cabinet shop was always overworked.
And lets not forget about raja ji's needs.
his wifes first daughter needed a fancy two story playhouse.
All the people wanted to do service to take care of his
children because they could never have some of thier own.
Never once did we hear that maharji was pleased or
liked anything we did. Raja ji had us make him a
bassinet for HIS child when he had one.
Him and maharaji designed some of it.
Of course once a few years later maharaji said ' sometimes
I feel like thanking the premies for something but then I
realize it was the grace doing it through them and so
...' I forget the exact wording of the last part but it
was along the lines of 'so I don't have any reason to'
Now OP was probably thanked once. But she was lucky.
Anyway Joan was the gopi of gopi's, she was always
longing and devotional and she was shooting for mira bai
status. And she wasn't the only one.
She called me to help move her windsurfer to ny so the
movers could take it with her stuff to santa barbara.
I didn't want to ask her why she was so devoid of her
old out front devotion.
I am sure she was at the event.
But it must be a challenge to her to reconcile the
songs and her life. I think I understand something about
iras' year long recovery. Although I am not sure I will
be 'recovering'. He is still around and in LA area.
At last report.
It's depressing for sure but I do well when I don't
try to respond to other posts that hit a nerve of mine.
I am going to shoot for not engageing in a direct
effort to convince anybody of anything and kind of
get back to marching ahead in exploration and having
fun. But ai don't mind strolling down memory lane when someone triggers something.
It's ok with me if everyone maintains thier views.
As long as skeletons are allowed to be seen.
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Date: Mon, Dec 22, 1997 at 03:29:37 (EST)
Poster: op
Email:
To: bb & jw
Subject: Re: odl timers (Re: Joan Apter)
Message:
Joan is well and doing fine, thank you very much. She went to Amaroo and had a wonderful time. Her life is her own, so I won't go into details.
Ira is an instructor again, so you might hear about him in other contexts every once in a while. He's doing fine too. Seems to have recuperated from any crushing blows.
I always wished that M would chew me out about something. Kind of like heavy scouring powder on the greasy pot. But he has always been very gentle. The worst I ever got directly was a tease for forgetting to put the date on a letter.
Other than that, I suppose I did get the cold shoulder in various ways - never completely ignored, but messages would come through someone else, instead of from him. That way I knew that what I was asking was off the wall. I can honestly say (and this goes back most recently to this year) that whenever I have a real, heart-felt need, he has not ignored me.
BTW - Arthur Brigham is well and living in Europe. He got married and has his own family, so the rumor is he doesn't want to face the wrath of the hundreds he lashed out at for having their own lives. He's still a practicing premie.
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Date: Mon, Dec 22, 1997 at 13:16:42 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: BB
Subject: Re: the windsurfer (Re: Joan Apter)
Message:
Thanks Burke, for that heartfelt post. I had a profound effect on me. That's my recollection of Maharaji too. He didn't thank anyone for anything and always wanted more. So many people burned out in that process.
JW
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Date: Mon, Dec 22, 1997 at 18:41:51 (EST)
Poster: CD
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: the windsurfer (Re: Joan Apter)
Message:
Ira came to give a talk in San Diego around Thanksgiving.
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Date: Mon, Dec 22, 1997 at 19:50:52 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: CD
Subject: Re: the windsurfer (Re: Joan Apter)
Message:
Ira came to give a talk in San Diego around Thanksgiving.
Did he still look like Anthony Perkins in Psycho? Does he have gray hair now? What did he talk about? Is she allowed by Maharaji to give satsang? Did he give the "talk" in a public park in front of a large picture of Guru Maharaji Ji like he used to? Did he have turkey in San Diego? Did he go to Sea World or to a Chargers game?
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Date: Mon, Dec 22, 1997 at 23:38:20 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: joan of apter
Subject: Re: the windsurfer (Re: Joan Apter)
Message:
I helped Joan move to santa barbara california
about 4 years ago.
she had changed but I didn't know how or why.
I had said to her and Ira woods that we should find out
whenever maharaji was flying near the east coast and
have a program and invite him and just always be ready
for him to drop in. He had mentioned a few times about
just stopping in places.
He was always overflying the north east coast.
I was all enthused and saw how easily we could all
do it and it would be faceing the reality of
the possibility of him stopping in.
Ira and Joan just looked away and remained silent.
niether one would speak.
nothing, just quiet.
after a while one of them started some other topic.
I couldn't for the life of me understand.
Later, Ira during some other conversation said
it took him 1 year to recover from the 86 or 87
new york dinner gala dance.
I tape recorded the roast maharaji gave of some of the
premies, it was good.
There was a band that was going to play at the far end and
maharaji mentioned something about that.
The announcer booth dyess said maybe we could take turns
going and maharaji was done speaking and I moved quickly
over to the door leading to the music area. I held it open
and stood there. maharaji was undecided but saw me waiting
at the door and came on down. I watched his feet as he came
down the carpet at me. he went in and marolyn gave me this
exuberant 'thank you!'.
His valet came up to me and asked if I saw amar, that he was
missing, he quickly turned up.
maharaji went to the dj spot next to the band and
played a song and then played a black rythem sexual song
I dont remember at the moment but I know it.
he and mayrolyn walked into the crowd and so I hopped
on stage to see and make sure he was ok because the valet
staying with amar.
premies were standing motionless around him quite close
and it was tight some of the premies formed a small
circle around him and marolyn did a rubbing type
of dance with him, mostly her.
m gave some rough looks to some of the premies I could
tell by thier response, they would look away but remained
where they were.
at the end of the song they headed out so I went to the door
but they went through a kitchen door where there was some staff hanging out, marolyn was all sociable looking
but maharaji was pissed and the staff burst out laughing.
maybe it was the contrast, or maybe what works in the
small world of mission staff looks halarious to
regular folks, whatever, anyway, the coordinators of
the event caught hell.
Enough to take Ira 1 year to recover.
On the 707, we worked for endless hours on the ebony
wood trim that went throughout the plane, we sanded the
wood to 6 or 800 grit, then spray painted it with
clear coat. Then we wet sanded that to 1200 grit then
buffed it so there was no marks whatsoever. working from
9 am till the 2:30 am meal. For quite a while we were not allowed the break of satsang,at night because that cut into work time. When ever I would work at the residence that was also the rule.
Anyway, the first tour stop of the 707 was montreal.
I went, and it was freezing, REAL cold, and they turned the
airplane off and left it for a few days. The staff went in
and turned on the plane and the heat for a flight7 hours
later, and that was to fast a change and all the clear
coat blued. meaning it slightly separated from the wood.
giving it a slightly cloudy blue haze.
maharaji went absolutely (well you pick the adjetive),
and the poor guy who was in charge of the plane
caught so much endless hell that even I heard about it.
He ran away crushed sometime later.
we worked on a lot of that wood again.
But we were in a crushing rush because maharaji wanted
wall units built for his house and cabinets and the
cabinet shop was always overworked.
And lets not forget about raja ji's needs.
his wifes first daughter needed a fancy two story playhouse.
All the people wanted to do service to take care of his
children because they could never have some of thier own.
Never once did we hear that maharji was pleased or
liked anything we did. Raja ji had us make him a
bassinet for HIS child when he had one.
Him and maharaji designed some of it.
Of course once a few years later maharaji said ' sometimes
I feel like thanking the premies for something but then I
realize it was the grace doing it through them and so
...' I forget the exact wording of the last part but it
was along the lines of 'so I don't have any reason to'
Now OP was probably thanked once. But she was lucky.
Anyway Joan was the gopi of gopi's, she was always
longing and devotional and she was shooting for mira bai
status. And she wasn't the only one.
She called me to help move her windsurfer to ny so the
movers could take it with her stuff to santa barbara.
I didn't want to ask her why she was so devoid of her
old out front devotion.
I am sure she was at the event.
But it must be a challenge to her to reconcile the
songs and her life. I think I understand something about
iras' year long recovery. Although I am not sure I will
be 'recovering'. He is still around and in LA area.
At last report.
It's depressing for sure but I do well when I don't
try to respond to other posts that hit a nerve of mine.
I am going to shoot for not engageing in a direct
effort to convince anybody of anything and kind of
get back to marching ahead in exploration and having
fun. But ai don't mind strolling down memory lane when someone triggers something.
It's ok with me if everyone maintains thier views.
As long as skeletons are allowed to be seen.
Bill, can you tell us more about this party in New York?
Also, I would LOVE to hear more from you about your experiences working on the plane and at the residences. What was that like? Was M really that ungrateful for the work the premies did? I know he was REALLY into that plane and constantly changed his mind about what he wanted, but why was he in such a hurry to get the plane, such that the premies had to work day and night to get it done?
JW
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Date: Sun, Dec 21, 1997 at 19:03:45 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email: joger02@aol.com
To: All Premies
Subject: Announcement to All Premies
Message:
I just got this message from a friend of mine and I think Maharaji wants all premies to get it. Just consider this part of the community phone tree:
"The next program in some far-flung corner of the planet -- which you will have to pay thousands in air fare to attend, but I will just fly in on my customized jet (paid for by you of course)--to be announced soon!"
Take note, everyone! And Merry Christmas!
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Date: Sun, Dec 21, 1997 at 19:08:21 (EST)
Poster: Jw
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: Announcement to All Premies
Message:
Oh, and there was this other message too, that goes in line with the "enjoy your life" topic down below. I gather it won't be given for another 20 years or so:
"Dear premies:
Enjoy your life as best you can, while I laugh all the way to the bank with what would be, added up over the years, your life savings! Happy retirement. Hope the knowledge worked because you won't have a lot else left!"
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Date: Sun, Dec 21, 1997 at 18:43:09 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Everyone
Subject: Recovery
Message:
I got the following quote from the trancenet.org site (the specific URL for this quote is www.trancenet.org/groups/faq/faqrecover/shtml).
It was written by John M. Knapp and Pamela Fitzpatrick.
I wanted to include this on the forum because there is sometimes discussion about how the ex-premies are living in the past, are "blaming" Maharaji and/or his organization for their own problems, and are misplacing anger. I think it's important for people to think about what happened to them in their time as a premie (in other words, "in the past"), and I also think that anger is an important part of recovering. It takes some people a long time even to be able to think about being an ex-premie. As the authors say below, it's a grieving experience, and that takes different lengths of time for different people. My own experience has been that I have needed to go through the stages of the grieving process more than once.
(BTW, the authors use the word "cult" quite a bit. Apologies to Mili and anyone else that this offends. Their definition of "cult" is quite broad)
Here's the quote:
The pain of recovery comes and goes. It gets better over time. You must have heard about Kubler-Ross's steps of grief recovery? Shock, denial, bargaining, anger, acceptance?
As a cult veteran, you are in a grief process for the time, money, love, and life that was stolen from you. You can't skip any of the steps of the grieving process. If a parent or loved one died, you'd give yourself a year to recover, wouldn't you?
Part of you has died. Give yourself the same respect you would if you had lost your most intimate loved one.
Many therapists insist that you can have a full recovery from cult trauma. We are not therapists. But we suspect this isn't exactly true.
We have had an enormous life-changing experience. One that is shared by relatively few people in the world. Many of us feel that we have been changed forever by time in the cults.
Like all things in life, there is good and bad about this. Our lives may never be the same, nor even similar to what we once envisioned, but we can experience joy, fulfilling work, and deep, satisfying relationships again.
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Date: Mon, Dec 22, 1997 at 02:33:03 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Katie
Subject: Re: Recovery
Message:
No offense, Katie. Actually I think you guys are playing a role here. Maharaji has tried to get rid of the Hindu trappings and the personality cult himself in the past (see ex-premie site), and I see you as helping in that respect.
And you can only be shocked so much at being labeled a 'cult member'. After a while, it loses its sting. Weren't the early Christians also dubbed 'dangerous cult members' in the Roman Empire? After a while, even the Roman Emperor became a Christian.
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Date: Mon, Dec 22, 1997 at 02:53:57 (EST)
Poster: m tried to get rid of the
Email: bb
To: Mili
Subject: personality cult himself in the past (Re: Recovery)
Message:
well I guess that inspires me to post some of the
LA event.
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Date: Mon, Dec 22, 1997 at 09:36:53 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Mili
Subject: Re: Recovery
Message:
No offense, Katie. Actually I think you guys are playing a role here. Maharaji has tried to get rid of the Hindu trappings and the personality cult himself in the past (see ex-premie site), and I see you as helping in that respect.
And you can only be shocked so much at being labeled a 'cult member'. After a while, it loses its sting. Weren't the early Christians also dubbed 'dangerous cult members' in the Roman Empire? After a while, even the Roman Emperor became a Christian.
Dear Mili - The reason I said that the Trancenet site's definition of "cult" was broad was because they also include stuff about getting out of abusive relationships (like male-female relationships. Personally, I don't like the word "cult" - I think it tends to polarize people. And it's lost a lot of its original meaning and acquired all kinds of new connotations.
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Date: Mon, Dec 22, 1997 at 10:45:22 (EST)
Poster: John Kreilkamp
Email:
To: Mili
Subject: Re: Recovery
Message:
He has tried to get rid of the personality cult?
I went to a few videos over a year ago and all they were was M. M driving up in his gorgeous car, m getting out of the car, m walking on to the stage, m talking, NO ONE else talking, people singing to M...etc. the camera fixated on M and only M..
if that's not encouraging a personality cult then what is?
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Date: Mon, Dec 22, 1997 at 10:57:13 (EST)
Poster: Mr Ex
Email:
To: John Kreilkamp
Subject: Re: Recovery
Message:
This might be socks cult, one of these very strange .....
You have any idea how many places he gave darshan (pay respect to your master business) in 1997 ?
India, Nepa, Ivory Coast, Taiwan, Australia, Mauritius, and very likely some other places I don't know yet.
It looks like he intends to have many more of these socks cults lines in 1998, very likely in Europe and in the US!
he recently said that the 2 most precious things regarding knowledge are : the day you received the techniques, and the moment you can pay respect (kiss hi feet) to the Master!
Extremely intersting!
Even premies agree !!!!
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Date: Mon, Dec 22, 1997 at 12:25:24 (EST)
Poster: Very Angry
Email:
To: Mili
Subject: Re: Recovery
Message:
Mili, you can’t imagine how angry I am,
and how angry some other people I know very well are.
Angry means angry,
and when you are angry YOU ARE ANGRY.
And you act like an angry person.
I don’t see any reason to stop it.
It might stop by itself, one day, very likely.
What’s funny is that it doesn’t hinder the pleasure I have in life
I would even say that it enhances my pleasure.
Making everything to upset the BigFatM is a great pleasure for me.
Making everything possible to end up his socks/toes cult is an extreme pleasure for me.
Making everything possible to cause him as much trouble as possible
is a great pleasure for me.
I hope that many others will go beyond their fear,
and realize how helpful it could be for them
to fuck the person who fucked them for years.
It won’t be very difficult to stop him I hope
He has been lucky for 26 or 27 years
Thanks to the Internet, the end of his luck might be very near.
I’ll be extremely satisfied when I’ll know that authorities will investigate and audit
his organizations finances in depth, as well as his own, and people’s around him.
I’ll be very happy to know that some places government will keep his plane and himself in some secure place.
I’ll be extremely happy to know that an international audit of all his businesses is on his way.
And as a matter of fact, I’m extremely happy to discover that BigFatM has no copyright on anything he pretends to sell and that you can enjoy life even better without his ‘blessings’.
His ‘blessing’ is the worst problem you may have in your life.
It’s worse than cancer.
At least you may die of cancer. Or find doctors to help you.
This BS keeps you alive and in a disguised hell.
No doctor will help you except yourself.
As a matter of fact, you might even never know how sick you are when you have that kind of relationship in your life.
If you have a terrible spouse, you might finally divorce him/her.
It’s not that easy to divorce a terrible deceitful and cheating guru.
I could go on for hours like this......
Mr Ex
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Date: Mon, Dec 22, 1997 at 13:01:46 (EST)
Poster: John Cavad
Email:
To: Very Angry
Subject: Re: Recovery
Message:
Mili, you can’t imagine how angry I am,
and how angry some other people I know very well are.
Angry means angry,
and when you are angry YOU ARE ANGRY.
And you act like an angry person.
I don’t see any reason to stop it.
It might stop by itself, one day, very likely.
What’s funny is that it doesn’t hinder the pleasure I have in life
I would even say that it enhances my pleasure.
Making everything to upset the BigFatM is a great pleasure for me.
Making everything possible to end up his socks/toes cult is an extreme pleasure for me.
Making everything possible to cause him as much trouble as possible
is a great pleasure for me.
I hope that many others will go beyond their fear,
and realize how helpful it could be for them
to fuck the person who fucked them for years.
It won’t be very difficult to stop him I hope
He has been lucky for 26 or 27 years
Thanks to the Internet, the end of his luck might be very near.
I’ll be extremely satisfied when I’ll know that authorities will investigate and audit
his organizations finances in depth, as well as his own, and people’s around him.
I’ll be very happy to know that some places government will keep his plane and himself in some secure place.
I’ll be extremely happy to know that an international audit of all his businesses is on his way.
And as a matter of fact, I’m extremely happy to discover that BigFatM has no copyright on anything he pretends to sell and that you can enjoy life even better without his ‘blessings’.
His ‘blessing’ is the worst problem you may have in your life.
It’s worse than cancer.
At least you may die of cancer. Or find doctors to help you.
This BS keeps you alive and in a disguised hell.
No doctor will help you except yourself.
As a matter of fact, you might even never know how sick you are when you have that kind of relationship in your life.
If you have a terrible spouse, you might finally divorce him/her.
It’s not that easy to divorce a terrible deceitful and cheating guru.
I could go on for hours like this......
Mr Ex
Dear Mr. Ex:
You, my friend, have such passion. I admire that. Now who was it that accused me of "turning up the tension" in another topic?
Best wishes for a happy holiday season to all.
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Date: Mon, Dec 22, 1997 at 13:02:08 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Very Angry
Subject: Re: Recovery
Message:
Enjoy your anger, it's your choice. I am enjoying bliss.
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Date: Mon, Dec 22, 1997 at 13:19:51 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: Mili
Subject: Re: Recovery
Message:
Enjoy your anger, it's your choice. I am enjoying bliss.
Please excuse me while I leave the room to vomit.
And a Merry Christmas to you, too, Mili!
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Date: Mon, Dec 22, 1997 at 14:52:19 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: JW
Subject: Re: Recovery
Message:
Enjoy your anger, it's your choice. I am enjoying bliss.
Please excuse me while I leave the room to vomit.
And a Merry Christmas to you, too, Mili!
Enjoy your vomit.
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Date: Mon, Dec 22, 1997 at 17:26:36 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Mili and Joe
Subject: Re: Recovery
Message:
Enjoy your anger, it's your choice. I am enjoying bliss.
Please excuse me while I leave the room to vomit.
And a Merry Christmas to you, too, Mili!
Enjoy your vomit.
Enjoy your Christmas, you guys! You sound so much like my family always did at holidays that it's making me a little nostalgic...
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Date: Mon, Dec 22, 1997 at 22:34:21 (EST)
Poster: Mommy
Email:
To: Very Angry
Subject: Re: Recovery
Message:
Mr. Ex,
You don't own this world.
Many people get enjoyment and benefit from Maharaji.
Get your act together.
Don't be content to be a pebble in someones shoe.
You can do better than live your life as a nuisance to others.
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Date: Mon, Dec 22, 1997 at 23:39:52 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: m tried to get rid of the
Subject: Re: personality cult himself in the past (Re: Recovery)
Message:
well I guess that inspires me to post some of the
LA event.
Please, please do.
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Date: Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 04:56:45 (EST)
Poster: Mr Ex
Email:
To: Mommy
Subject: Re: Recovery
Message:
Mr. Ex,
You don't own this world.
Many people get enjoyment and benefit from Maharaji.
Get your act together.
Don't be content to be a pebble in someones shoe.
You can do better than live your life as a nuisance to others.
You’re absolutely right !
So did I.
Until I finally discovered that I also had a big pebble in my shoe.
Like 90% of the people who came to Mr PPR and received ‘knowledge’.
Mr PPR is a public nuisance.
And a big fraud.
There have always been charlatans,
and suckers like you and me to believe
and naive enough to feed them.
I won’t change anything to this fact.
But I have every right to say what I think
and what I know.
You say how beautiful Maharaji is
I say how obnoxious and deceitful he is.
We will never agree.
You say he deserves everything.
I say he uses a registered US charity
to make millions of $ a year for Himself
and to enslave people
materially and spiritually.
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Date: Sun, Dec 21, 1997 at 13:35:55 (EST)
Poster: Bobby
Email:
To: Everyone
Subject: It's Here Now - Are You? Bha. Das
Message:
I'm most of the way through an incredible book called It's Here Now - Are You? by Bhagavan Das. The book has me glued. I'm most of the way through after starting yesterday.
Bhagavan Das was the guy that turned Richard Alpert on to Neem Karoli Baba, his Guru Maharaj Ji.
Bhagavan Das left home at age 18 just after President Kennedy was shot.
Bhagavan Das spent seven years in India living off the grace of the Divine Mother.
What a fascinating story. It's really the stuff I can relate to.
Interesting to think of Prempal Rawat as Maharaji vis a vis Neem Karoli Baba as Maharaj Ji.
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Date: Sun, Dec 21, 1997 at 15:03:45 (EST)
Poster: Bobby
Email:
To: anyone
Subject: Re: It's Here Now - Are You? Bha. Das
Message:
Interesting also to think of Prempal Rawat premies in general and how most of them really are not into the Hindu trip. Really, the roots of guru lie in the Hindu trip. Many of the forms that Western (ex-)premies have such a hard time with such as devotion to the Master, darshan, prashad, etc. are lifted straight out of the authentic Hindu tradition.
Authentic Hindu tradition is a cultural matrix, many components of which do not map onto the American cultural matrix. Most folks do not realize that they are existing in a cultural matrix that determines their thoughts, feelings, important events.... really their whole lives.
We live in a soup of images that we assume are the norm. Most of the time, we are one with the images and don't even know they are there. We assume this is normal, this is real, and everybody else oughtta be this way.
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Date: Sun, Dec 21, 1997 at 16:54:43 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petakt@mail.trib.net
To: Bobby
Subject: Re: It's Here Now - Are You? Bha. Das
Message:
Interesting also to think of Prempal Rawat premies in general and how most of them really are not into the Hindu trip. Really, the roots of guru lie in the Hindu trip. Many of the forms that Western (ex-)premies have such a hard time with such as devotion to the Master, darshan, prashad, etc. are lifted straight out of the authentic Hindu tradition.
Authentic Hindu tradition is a cultural matrix, many components of which do not map onto the American cultural matrix. Most folks do not realize that they are existing in a cultural matrix that determines their thoughts, feelings, important events.... really their whole lives.
We live in a soup of images that we assume are the norm. Most of the time, we are one with the images and don't even know they are there. We assume this is normal, this is real, and everybody else oughtta be this way.
Hi Bobby - I'd just like to add that many of the Indian (Hindi?) devotees of Maharaji who came to the U.S. had problems with the American cultural matrix. I saw a lot of problems occur because some of the Indian premies' perceptions of, and subsequent assumptions about, American women. I don't know if anyone else on the forum encountered this.
I was pretty young when I got knowledge, also had lived in a foreign county before, so I didn't have much problem with learning and accepting the Hindu traditions. In fact, I think a lot of us ex-premies orginally liked those traditions and thought that they were superior to American traditions better BECAUSE they was Hindu - I certainly did.
Didn't you?
It's also my feeling that GMJ has swallowed the American cultural tradition hook line and sinker. Maybe he has kept the Hindu parts that suit him, but he definitely appears to be quite Americanized.
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Date: Mon, Dec 22, 1997 at 00:24:50 (EST)
Poster: Rick
Email: rtaraday@hotmail.com
To: Bobby
Subject: Re: It's Here Now - Are You? Bha. Das
Message:
I'm most of the way through an incredible book called It's Here Now - Are You? by Bhagavan Das. The book has me glued. I'm most of the way through after starting yesterday.
Bhagavan Das was the guy that turned Richard Alpert on to Neem Karoli Baba, his Guru Maharaj Ji.
Bhagavan Das left home at age 18 just after President Kennedy was shot.
Bhagavan Das spent seven years in India living off the grace of the Divine Mother.
What a fascinating story. It's really the stuff I can relate to.
Interesting to think of Prempal Rawat as Maharaji vis a vis Neem Karoli Baba as Maharaj Ji.
Bhagavan Das lives on the same property I live on. I see him from time to time, although I've never talked to him. I heard about the book being released but haven't read it yet. He's a very new age guy.
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Date: Mon, Dec 22, 1997 at 02:25:48 (EST)
Poster: I wish indians would
Email: bb
To: Rick
Subject: pick names that were not so religious (Re: It's Here Now - Are You? Bha. Das)
Message:
richard alpert, or as his brother calls him,
rammed ass,
had a stroke and is half paralized.
he said he still believes in be here now,
if I was paralized I think I would daydream,
I bought a herb tea as part of a fundraiser someone is
doing for his medical bills, he was too spiritual to have
insurance at age 55.
Neem Karoli Baba didn't work the garden, he wanted to sit
around and be fawned over.
Give me a working stiff for a teacher at this point.
For all his not being the lord, at least prem pal rawat
works his but off to learn flying.
Most indian lord's plant thier ass and thats that.
bhagwan das,
'he spent 7 years living off the grace of the divine mother',
that would be kali. goddess of death
She is the hideous monster statue that someone dreamed up
and I can't say it was a dream I would wan't my child
to have. If my kid made a statue of a creature like
that I would not be pleased and I would not worship it,
I would smash it definately.
He lived off the grace of the divne mother, sounds like
a fancy excuse for not being employed for 7 years.
How about he worked a garden growing crops from the
bounty of the beautiful and living mother earth?
not the divine mother of death. kali. fantasy goddess.
why leave the grace? why bail out after 7 years?
why did he come here? ok fine grace 7 years,
now I want the gravy train, book, more devotees,
more grace, maybe catch up to prem pal in organization
and become a big name god for some.
It's all the grace, and the crucial chutzpah/delusion
to foist yourself off as something more than you are.
what do you get when you play new age music backwards?
new age music.
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Date: Mon, Dec 22, 1997 at 09:25:28 (EST)
Poster: Bobby
Email:
To: Rick
Subject: Re: It's Here Now - Are You? Bha. Das
Message:
Bhagavan Das lives on the same property I live on.
Then you live in Northern California.
He's a very new age guy.
What's your definition of "new age"?
What do you know about him?
Based on what he's been through and what he writes, he's not New Age at all.
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Date: Mon, Dec 22, 1997 at 09:32:06 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: I wish indians would
Subject: Re: pick names that were not so religious (Re: It's Here Now - Are You? Bha. Das)
Message:
Hi Bill -
You are probably going to get in trouble with Bobby again for making assumptions about Bhagavan Dass. Unless you know more about him than Bobby wrote. Just warning you. I remember reading about the guy 25 years ago in "Be Here Now". There was a picture of him too (we always thought he was really cute, by the way. A spritual hunk. You know how teenage girls are). The story about him in Be Here Now was pretty interesting, and I'd like to read the autobiography. Even though Bobby says it is good (just kidding!!).
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Date: Mon, Dec 22, 1997 at 09:32:09 (EST)
Poster: Bobby
Email:
To: I wish indians would
Subject: Re: pick names that were not so religious (Re: It's Here Now - Are You? Bha. Das)
Message:
Too bad.
Can't get intelligent response, except for Katie.
Just a load of insult and bile.
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Date: Mon, Dec 22, 1997 at 09:41:15 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email:
To: Bobby
Subject: Re: pick names that were not so religious (Re: It's Here Now - Are You? Bha. Das)
Message:
Too bad.
Can't get intelligent response, except for Katie.
Just a load of insult and bile.
Hey, Bobby, we are in synch. (See times on above messages.) I didn't think Rick's message was bad, and Bill is Bill.
Take care,
Katie
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Date: Mon, Dec 22, 1997 at 12:38:47 (EST)
Poster: Rick
Email: rtaraday@hotmail.com
To: Bobby
Subject: Re: It's Here Now - Are You? Bha. Das
Message:
Bhagavan Das lives on the same property I live on.
Then you live in Northern California.
He's a very new age guy.
What's your definition of 'new age'?
What do you know about him?
Based on what he's been through and what he writes, he's not New Age at all.
By "new age" I mean a belief system that "we create our own reality" in indirect ways, and that the "universe will provide for us if we trust in it", and that having negative thoughts and saying negative things will "create negativity". Bhagawan Das performs two chanting rituals at a new age resort, in exchange for a ramshackle house located in the wild, about a mile from the center of the resort. The people who attend the rituals are very new age. Although some people at the resort are fond of him, there are others who are turned off by him. They feel resentment because they have to work full time to afford to live here, and he does what they see as so little. Two years ago, Bhagavan Das was called before a governing council of the residents that live here, because of an incident involving his 19 year old girlfriend. She had a temper tantrum in the living room of the group house they lived in, at the time. The other house members tried to calm her down, and somehow this inflamed Bhagawan Das, who (according to their testimony) sent him into a rage. The house members felt very intimidated. Bhagawan Das' response at the tribunal, was to object to the female housemembers not embracing his girlfriend. He used an Indian term to describe the mentor-ship he expected from them, and perhaps that wouldn't qualify as new age, but it rubbed me the wrong way. I'm familiar with some Indian terms, but I'd never heard this one, and neither had most of the people in the room. I think he came off as a bit of a poser being so esoteric. Before he came to this resort to do his chanting rituals, he lived in the bay area, and had given up being Bhagawan Das. He was going by his real name, and had a straight job. Rumor has it (and this is rumor) that he felt he could make more money being Bhagawan Das. So he started up the ritual and isn't doing bad, if he's trying to capitalize on it. Most of my experience with him is just watching him "around town" and listening to him. I don't know his real thoughts and feelings, but he does seem to be the darling of the new age.
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Date: Mon, Dec 22, 1997 at 18:41:47 (EST)
Poster: straight
Email: bb
To: Rick
Subject: job (Re: It's Here Now - Are You? Bha. Das)
Message:
how about we imagine our own reality
or rather, we imagine our own illusion
or, we mispercieve the reality
or, we are free to have quite a wide variety of
imaginations about this place and the power and what it
can do for us or with us or what we can do with each other.
If 'we create our own reality' is the whole basis of my
belief system, then if I want devotees, I can create that
so called reality (or group imagination) by finding some
cooperative people who will play students.
And then I can create the reality (group belief), that
I am greater than the next guy and some will accept that
as the facts and we will be haveing devotee/superiour
power in person so called reality.
The 'universe will provide for us if we trust it'
is a wonderful cop out philosophy for those that want
to have someone else do thier dirty work for them.
Just because I have a few good sounding sentences
that aren't even mine and I interpret them for my
situation, it is revolting that I set myself up as a
teacher and potential lord for someone else instead
of working at the work of this life and maybe helping and
supporting others.
sun myung moon also says that 'saying negative things
and having negative thoughts will create negativity'
Sure, ask JW how to be a discerning human being without
being able to judge and say negative things when those
things richly deserve them and yet clamor the loudest
for my politically or spiritually correct approval or at
least acceptance.
The point of life is not to do the japanese thing of
smiling and bowing at anything and never saying 'no'
The japanese are loath to say 'no'
Let all the hindu god's and enlightened one's move to japan.
The 'mentor term' translates into domination.
Where is the father of the 19 yr old?
How dare that old man play wise man and sucker a 19 yr
old girl.
He of course was preaching no negativity and yet he
flies into a rage.
Well excuse me for being just a little bit hot these days
about any indian guy who says anything at all about god.
geez I just can't stop blasting away this last week,
I should just not read any posts for a few days and
just cool out.
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Date: Mon, Dec 22, 1997 at 18:51:47 (EST)
Poster: Edith
Email:
To: Bill
Subject: Re: job (Re: It's Here Now - Are You? Bha. Das)
Message:
Well excuse me for being just a little bit hot these days
about any indian guy who says anything at all about god.
geez I just can't stop blasting away this last week,
I should just not read any posts for a few days and
just cool out.
Yeah, someone said you were starting to sound like Archie Bunker! We love you (and most of your posts) anyway, though.
P.S. Bhagavan Dass is not Indian.
P.P.S. Lots of teenage girls don't have fathers that care about them.
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Date: Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 02:13:10 (EST)
Poster: edith
Email: bb
To: Edith
Subject: you sweet angel (Re: It's Here Now - Are You? Bha. Das)
Message:
Hi E
I am going to really try tomorrow to cheer up and
have some fun posting and take an r&r from the front lines.
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Date: Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 08:50:47 (EST)
Poster: Bobby
Email:
To: Rick
Subject: Re: It's Here Now - Are You? Bha. Das
Message:
By 'new age' I mean a belief system that 'we create our own reality' in indirect ways,
BD speaks against this directly in the book.
BD criticizes new age superficiality.
In my view, we live in a superficial society. New age is an attempt to embrace and interpret spiritual teachings that unfortunately is often very superficial.
BD says in his book that he lives in Harbin Hot Springs. At least he did live there. He speaks a bit about the conflicts there.
What I like most about the book is the personal nature of it. The writing is not that tight but BD does present many adventures and predicaments that are highly entertaining, adventurous, and oriented towards the sorts of spirituality that I get off on.
According to the book, BD made big bucks selling cars. I doubt that he is making near what he claims to have made in the car sales business.
I really like his perspectives on his involvement with Ram Dass, Joya and Trungpa. I've followed the biographies of these characters for decades.
BD has practiced meditation, puja and mantra for many years quite intensively. In his book he advocates sincere, all out authentic spiritual practice. This is not new age.
To me, BD is a real interesting character. His ego flaws are evident in his writings, but he doesn't edit to hide them like so many other writers. To me there is a lot of energy, enthusiasm and authenticity that comes through.
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Date: Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 14:35:00 (EST)
Poster: Rick
Email: rtaraday@hotmail.com
To: Bobby
Subject: Re: It's Here Now - Are You? Bha. Das
Message:
There's no doubt about it. BD has many fans. And he may not be New Age, but he has many fans who are New Age.
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Date: Sun, Dec 21, 1997 at 13:21:46 (EST)
Poster: Sir David
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: Mili & Everyone
Subject: Love loves to love love
Message:
Sorry Mili but I can't reply to your post on your thread below because my Demon software can't download the whole file. Therefore I've responded by starting this new thread.
My own revelation has been that God needs us to love and appreciate his love for us. Also we are God in miniture with the same qualities as Him.
The saying, "Love loves to love love" holds true eternally.
There is one thing that Maharaji said a few times in the seventies that REALLY struck home as being true. He was talking about devotion and how Lord Ram offered Hanuman anything he wanted. Hanuman asked for devotion. He did not want to be freed from the material world but only wanted to love Lord Ram and be His devotee, in any realm. This I have experienced, is the best, best thing, forever.
To have that eternal relationship with God, a relationship which never ceases to grow and amaze, to be able to reach out and touch the heart of God and to comprehend His unfathomable love and to adore Him with all your heart - there could be nothing greater and He knows it!
When all the suffering has been because of love, (which it is) when the reality of love is dawned upon yet again then one knows that each step was always a step of love towards that beautiful and even greater understanding;
That God is the most romantic, the most blessed and kind of Gods because He only wants us to be in love with him. Such a thing is higher than the highest Heaven and we would prostrate with total love and weep tears of joy for all eternity if we could but comprehend such a story.
We are a part of that story now. Truly our destination is at the lotus feet of God Himself in an even greater understanding and love for Him. For we are love and we yearn with our whole being and spirit to love with wild abandon our most blessed Lord. For we are the eternal Hanuman.
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Date: Mon, Dec 22, 1997 at 01:20:49 (EST)
Poster: to
Email: bb
To: Sir David
Subject: hanuman (Re: Love loves to love love)
Message:
it's good your around putting this stuff up.
I however am probably a bit like ira woods who needed
a year to 'recover'
Besides to issue that hanuman is claimed to be a
monkey and I could be killed by saying he wasn't to
the wrong people,
And that the power friend is about at square one with me
and needs to prove itself to me at this point again,
there is a virus that just jumped from birds to humans for
the first time and 2 out of 8 have died and it's about to
sweep the globe doing unknown damage. Hopw you all are ok.
And there is asia that has stopped dead in the water and
is starting a global recession that is going to get to
me here even though I am in the richest state in the
the richest country, and my previous lord figure, well,
enough said, and the powers' top priority is to
maintain its' own independence from people using the
power, and any new upstart religion causes trouble and
deaths, and malasia is going into a total free fall and
4% of the people (chinese) own 80% of the wealth, and the fear in the pentagon is that when the ethnic trouble starts
china will feel compelled to intervene and australia
is bound by treaty to defend malasia and blah blah,
yugoslavia has no monopoly on ehnic/racial war
problems, history has never seen a civilation like this on
earth unless you believe in the atlantis fantasy, and
surely we were never destined to have billions of people enjoying the conneticut lifestyle. The planet can't support
that dream. Unfortunately we need to be stopped and we
will be stopped. Probably that asia thing will end up
being the start of the great decline for all.
I know I saw a women and her 4 kids on a tv show once and
she was in some god awful country where there was endless
and permenant problems and disasters. She was in a shelter
of sorts and out of all the people she had the thing
figured out. Her kids had nothing, she had nothing, but
those kids had her great love and she was really there
for them and those kids were doing fine as a result of that,
and as long as you can eat and survive if you have great
of life you will be ok with nothing else.
I cannot adore.
I can only feel, and if I feel enough then it is
in the built in qualities of the feeling I feel,
that will determine my response.
I don't know how better to say that but I'll try,
If I lead from an idea, if I do from a viewpoint,
i've got the cart in front of the horse,
If I feel, the feeling that comes, comes with it's own
qualities that will move me or nudge me, to live
that moment living those qualities that come from
the feeling.
My best effort is to just feel the life and live as
freely as I feel like and by staying with the core feeling
I am at least at a primo starting point for some kind
of a relationship with the source of it all.
people want me to look at jesus, various others, as
an image to view the life through, to look up to and
well, adore them, but I have been burned too deeply
and I cannot go back to an image.
I can only stand the feeling and if it, itself, reveals
some more about itself, then it does.
I'm sore and I'm at square one.
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Date: Mon, Dec 22, 1997 at 07:52:12 (EST)
Poster: Sir David
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: Bill
Subject: Re: hanuman (Re: Love loves to love love)
Message:
I always thought Hannuman was a monkey, just a fairy story as far as I'm concerned but I only used it to illustrate a point. No I don't adore either, most of the time. I guess I'm just another person living on the planet with all my troubles and trying to do the best for my children, much like you.
I like your use of the term "power" because Maharaji for me has always been that power. Prem Pal is a human being and my dealings with him have been few and far between. I guess the bottom line is that I need that power. I need its help and I need its love. For the past 25 years I've felt the love of the power, off and on but it has been much more of a reality to me than Prem Pal. I think the power can manifest itself through anything. God, we'd be in a sad and sorry state if we could only rely on a small Indian man for help in our lives.
ell, Prem Pal doesn't know about my problems, Prem Pal doesn't know about my children and Prem Pal doesn't know about my friends.
But I know the power knows about all of the above. The power is infinite and all knowing. I'm sure He'll help us along the way.
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Date: Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 22:54:51 (EST)
Poster: han
Email: bb
To: Sir David
Subject: uman (Re: Love loves to love love)
Message:
nicely put sir david
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Date: Sun, Dec 21, 1997 at 11:45:42 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Jacob Boehme
Message:
Jakob Boehme (1575-1624) was a German religious mystic from the
town of Goerlitz in Silesia, eastern Germany. A cobbler by profession, he
was an autodidact much influenced by Paracelsus, the Kabbala, astrology,
alchemy, and the Hermetic tradition (Peuckert, 1924 101; Merkel
302-310; Hvolbel 6-17). He experienced a seminal religious epiphany in
1600, when a ray of sunlight reflected in a pewter dish catapulted him into
an ecstatic vision of the Godhead as penetrating all existence, including
even the Abyss of Non-being. This and other mystical experiences caused
Boehme to write a series of obscure but powerful religious treatises.
According to him, negativity, finitude, and suffering are essential aspects of
the Deity, for it is only through the participatory activity of his creatures that God achieves full
self-consciousness of his own nature.
Boehme's first treatise, entitled Aurora, or Die Morgenroete im Aufgang (1612), expressed his
insights in an abstruse, oracular style. This work aroused profound interest among a small circle of
followers, but it also provoked the heated opposition of the authorities. After being prosecuted by
the local pastor of Goerlitz, Boehme had to promise on pain of imprisonment to cease writing. This
judgment he obeyed for five years, until, unable to restrain himself any longer, he began writing again
in secret for private circulation among friends. The publication of his Weg zu Christo (Way to
Christ) in 1623 by one of these friends led to renewed persecutions. Banished from Goerlitz,
Boehme lived for a time in Dresden and on the country estates of wealthy supporters. Finally,
stricken by illness in 1624, he returned home and died in the same year.
Boehme's bold speculations about development within the Godhead, as well as his rejection of
narrow dogmatism and bibliolatry, were to exercise a profound influence on contemporary
Protestantism, both in Germany and elsewhere. The English Behmenists (followers of Boehme)
merged with the Quakers, who then carried his ideas into the New World. In his own country, the
major impact of Boehme was on German Romanticism, notably on the ideas of G.W.F. Hegel, F.
von Baader, and F.W.J. von Schelling. Reverberations of his thought continue today, especially
among theosophists, Christian mystics, and dialectical theologians.
Principal Philosophical and Theological Ideas
Boehme's primary religious project was the attempt to think through the transition from the
Godhead's illimitable oneness to its self-imposed aspect of limitation. This limitation was necessary,
Boehme maintained, in order for the Godhead to be able to apprehend itself as God. The Deity
needed to experience his epiphany in nature in order to become fully self-conscious. "In his depth,"
Boehme wrote, "God himself does not know what he is. For he knows no beginning, and also
nothing like himself, and also no end. . . ." (SS, vol. 1, Aurora, ch. 23, #17; cf. Works, vol. 1,
Aurora, ch. 23, #18).
In the finite creature, however, God found his own revelation reflected as in a mirror. Boehme
reasoned that because God desired to reveal himself to himself, and because revelation required a
sensible (i.e. experienceable) embodiment, therefore God had to become sensible in order to satisfy
his need for self-revelation. Thus, the dialectical drive toward self-awareness within God's originally
inchoate will was what gave rise to the spiritual as well as the material universe.
Boehme elaborated a rudimentary form of dialectic, consisting of positive and negative polar
principles. These principles, he said, emerged out of the Godhead's originally undifferentiated
non-being (das Nichts), also described as the primordial Abyss, or "Ungrund," and then
developed through ordered stages of manifestation toward complete self-revelation. In a vivid, often
dramatic style, Boehme portrayed the development from God's quiescent eternality toward his
creation of, and active embodiment in, the physical universe:
In the non-natural, uncreaturely Godhead (Gottheit) there is nothing more than a single
will, which is also called the one God, who wants nothing else except to find and grasp
himself, to go out of himself, and by means of this outgoing to bring himself into
visibility (Beschaulichkeit). This Beschaulichkeit is to be understood as comprising the
three-fold character of the Godhead, as well as the mirror of his wisdom and the eye
by which he sees (SS, vol. 6, Von der Gnaden-Wahl, ch. 1, #9; cf. Works, vol. 4, On
the Election to Grace, ##10-13).
One of Boehme's most daring conceptions was that God's emergence out of pure Oneness into
differentiated actuality required a confrontation with contrariety and opposition. It was out of this
creative struggle that the sensible universe issued forth. Boehme held that it was inevitable and even
desirable that conflict and suffering should have arisen. These negative elements were the motivating
spurs that stimulated the production of all the manifold phenomena of nature. Moreover, it was
solely through the struggle with negativity that the minds of finite creatures could become aware of
themselves, their world, and ultimately God:
If the natural life had no opposition (Widerwaertigkeit), and were without a goal, then
it would never ask for its own ground, from which it came; then the hidden God would
remain unknown to the natural life . . . there would be no sensation, nor will, nor
activity, nor understanding (SS, vol. 4, Weg zu Christo, "Von Goettlicher
Beschaulichkeit," ch. 1, #9; cf. Way to Christ 196).
If the hidden God, who is but a Single Essence and Will, had not of his own will gone
forth out of himself, if he had not issued out of the eternal knowing . . . into a divisibility
of the will (Schiedlichkeit des Willens), and had not the same divisibility into
comprehensibility (Infasslichkeit) conducted to a natural and creaturely life, and were
it not the case that this same divisibility in life consisted in strife -- how else then could
he have wanted the hidden will of God, who in himself is but One, to be revealed?
How might a will within a Single Unity be a knowledge of himself (Erkenntnis seiner
selber)? (ibid., #10)
In God's quest for self-manifestation, however, there lurked an implicit dilemma. On the one hand,
his eternal purity and freedom consisted in the condition of the Ungrund, which transcended all
limitations. On the other hand, the very absence of oppositions within this Ungrund meant that it
was incapable of either manifesting or apprehending itself -- it was, in fact, a "nothingness" (ein
Nichts).
Boehme next faced the question how to explain the manner in which the eternal "no-thing" could
experience longing in the first place. In order to manifest himself, it seemed that God had to negate
his own essence and eternal freedom. But even assuming such an act were possible, how would it
qualify as a true revelation? Would it not rather be a distortion of what it was seeking to make
manifest? Evidently, this primal Abyss was only relatively, not absolutely, "unreal." Its "no-thingness"
was somewhat analogous to the indeterminate ain soph in the Kabbala. Although undifferentiated,
the Abyss possessed the inherent potentiality to become something actual and concrete; and the first
manifestation of this potentiality, according to Boehme, was the experience of a "hunger" or, as he
otherwise expressed it, a "longing." As the will of the unmanifest Godhead sought to reveal itself in
its primordial freedom -- that is, as containing no other features or attributes than the mere will to
become sensible -- all that this will could possibly bring forth was "the quality of hunger, which it
itself . . . [was]" (SS, vol. 6, De Signatura Rerum, ch. 2, #7; cf. Works, vol. 4, The Signature of
All Things, ch. 2, #10). This will, by means of becoming desire, could find and feel itself, and in so
doing it had taken an important step toward self-manifestation. Yet what this will-as-desire initially
revealed was only an imperfect reflection of its inner essence. The spiritual hunger began as a
"darkness," obscuring the purity of the Ungrund.
Once having established the existence of a primal "darkness," Boehme next proceeded to elicit a
series of developmental stages through which, as he maintained, the world-creative process
necessarily had to pass. The impetus came from the contradictory character of a situation that could
not endure, inasmuch as the "darkness" covering the will conflicted with the purpose that had first
given rise to it. Consequently, a second will came into being, whose aim was to return again into the
original condition of unity, while at the same time keeping hold of the darkness, which thus far had
been the only product of God's will toward manifestation. The result was a movement of drawing in
upon itself, a contraction into a core of being. This core then became the ground (Grund) of all
subsequent stages (ibid, #8; cf. Eng. trans., #11).
Now, because the introverted "longing" appeared to be incapable of ever finding satisfaction, it took
the form of a fierce and chaotic "fire" that burned without giving light. This was the quality of divine
wrath or bitterness (Grimmigkeit), which perpetually turned in upon itself and consumed its own
substance (SS, vol. 2, Beschreibung der Drey Principien Goettliches Wesens, chs. 1-2; cf.
Works, vol.1, The Three Principles of the Divine Essence, chs. 1-2). This self-destructive activity
caused tremendous pain and anguish within the divine nature, the first suffering that the universe had
ever known. Boehme described this first principle as "the craving to draw into itself."
Yet despite the destructive aspect of the divine wrath, it was, according to Boehme, essential as the
foundation for all subsequent developments. Without it, there could have been neither light nor life
nor joy of any kind. Hence, the Grimmigkeit could in a sense be described as the generator of all
things: as God the Father. When the first principle turned its primordial bitterness upon itself, there
transpired a dramatic reversal. The anguished negation of free self-manifestation was itself negated:
With a violent thunderclap, the harsh first principle overcame its own harshness, and a joyous light
supervened (ibid., ch. 2, #9). This symbolized the emergence of harmony and order out of the
original chaos. Triumphant was the second principle, that of divine love, which Boehme also
characterized as God the Son.
Boehme taught that the interaction between these two principles of the divine wrath and love
produced the creative impulse out of which the manifold universe evolved. Moreover, the two
cooperative forces did not cease to be productive after the universe's creation, for both are
necessary also in order to sustain it. All things consist of positive and negative aspects, the divine
Yes and No (SS, vol. 9, Theosophische Fragen, ch. 3, #2). In the present age, however, the first
principle is no longer violent or chaotic, having been transmuted by the influence of the second
principle. Indeed, Boehme's third major principle, identified with the Holy Spirit, is precisely the
continual movement between the first two: It is the living breath of the cosmos (Gnaden-Wahl, ch.
1, #24; Eng. trans., #29).
It is perhaps useful to restate briefly Boehme's main problematic in more standard philosophical
terminology:
Boehme's speculations led him to the idea that the first schism within the will of God had to
materialize in the form of a concrete self-alienation. He argued (in effect) that there must be a
transition between (1) the potential polarity involved in positing an unmanifest non-being's need to
become manifest to itself, and (2) the coming-into-existence of a being that was manifest, and yet
also contrary to itself. The unmanifest Godhead was prior to all existence and as such absolutely
homogeneous; and yet -- this was the first paradox -- it included an inherent tendency to
differentiate itself into contraries. Thus the undifferentiated unity passed into the self-differentiating
unity. The latter, like the Logos of Heraklitus, contained in posse the germs of a balance of
opposites, whose hypothetical contrariety was of such a kind -- and this was the second paradox --
that their transition into concrete actuality was necessary. In this way, the hidden dialectic of God
issued forth into the manifest dialectic of nature, and with that, the sensible universe was created.
Evaluation
If one makes allowances for the fanciful quality of Boehme's modes of expression, one can see him
wrestling with a classic philosophical problem: namely, how to understand the relationship between
God's timeless unity and the multiplicity of the actual universe. Part of what made this problem so
formidable was that it involved trying, in a way, to "conceive" of a connection between the
conceivable and that which (by hypothesis) is inconceivable.
Since God was the inconceivable essence par excellence, it was a riddle to comprehend how or
why this essence could have rendered itself understandable, even if only to a degree. The question
was, why should the Deity not far rather remain inscrutable, forever wrapped in absolute mystery?
The originality of Boehme's approach consisted in giving the problem a self-referential twist -- in the
claim that God would have no knowledge of himself if he did not reveal himself to himself. Inasmuch
as revelation consists in a kind of experience, it must require a structural subject-object polarity.
Hence, it would follow that God's self-revelation simultaneously implied the existence of a creation
and creatures to whom, and through whom, the revelation would take place.
One can easily appreciate how repugnant these ingenious but unorthodox reflections must have been
to the Lutheran authorities of his own time. Yet the same features that outraged many of his
contemporaries were qualities that ensured his continuing appeal for posterity. Although Boehme's
manner of reasoning was far from rigorous, yet viewed as an attempt to account for the emergence
of multiplicity out of unity, and existence out of possibility, his thought is richly suggestive.
Recently, there has been a growing appreciation of Boehme's importance in the history of
philosophy. His emphasis on the primacy of the will led him to sketch out the principles for an
innovative metaphysics, an alternative to the mechanistic determinism that became dominant in
Europe for over two centuries. By focusing on the experiences of lack, need, striving, and conflict as
fundamental dimensions of both human and the divine life, he paved the way for modern
philosophies of the will. One scholar has for this reason called Boehme "the first significant
voluntarist" in Western thought (Stoudt 302).
Notable also were his efforts to work out a theogony which was simultaneously a cosmogony -- an
equivalence based on the principle of the close interrelationship between God's self-consciousness
and his self-revelation. This principle has since played a pivotal (and controversial) role in modern
religious thought. Boehme's thesis that God's coming to self-consciousness was a genetic process
led to a new model for revelation, one involving the mediation of successive creations through
pre-mundane as well as worldly time. Indeed, it is perhaps not too much to say that Boehme was
the first to attempt thinking through the historicity of the Absolute.
To sum up, Boehme's elaboration of a theosophy based on the interactions of divine wrath, love,
and movement lacked rigor and consistency. His writing had an ecstatic, visionary style. It is evident
that he conceived of his divine principles not as objective laws but as the supernatural fusion of
psychological and alchemical properties. Their nature was, to him, dynamically volitional rather than
formally logical. Yet no doubt it was partly for these very qualities that Boehme's principles did
much to inspire subsequent thinkers, especially his ideas concerning the nature of God's innermost
being in relation to the manifest universe.
Sources
Works by Boehme:
Individual titles cited above are all included in the Saemtliche Schriften (SS), edited by Will-Erich
Peuckert. Stuttgart: Fr. Frommanns, 1955-61. (This is a facsimile reprint of the 1730 edition.)
English renderings are my own. Readers may also wish to consult the translation edited by William
Law, The Works of Jacob Behman. London: Richardson, 1764. Passages from this English
translation are cited above, following the corresponding German citations.
The Way to Christ. A modern translation of Boehme's Weg zu Christo (1620). Trans. W. Zeller.
New York: Paulist Press, 1978.
Works about Boehme:
Merkel, Ingrid. "Aurora; or, The Rising Sun of Allegory: Hermetic Imagery in the Work of Jakob
Boehme." Hermeticism and the Renaissance: Intellectual History and the Occult in Early
Modern Europe. Eds. I. Merkel and A. G. Debus. Washington: The Folger Shakespeare Library,
1988. 302-310.
Peuckert, Will-Erich. Das Leben Jakob Boehmes. Jena: E. Dieterichs, 1924.
Stoudt, John Joesph. Sunrise to Eternity: A Study in Jacob Boehme's Life and Thought.
Philadelphia: University of Pennsylvania Press, 1957.
Hvolbel, R. H. "Was Jacob Boehme a Paracelsian?" Hermetic Journal 19 (Spring 1983): 6-17.
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Date: Mon, Dec 22, 1997 at 01:51:43 (EST)
Poster: childhoods'
Email: bb
To: Mili
Subject: end (Re: Jacob Boehme)
Message:
the small children I know somehow are in a sort
of magical world (if they aren't too supressed)
and are aware of themselves and thier world and
seem close to the life/god, they start out in life
being naturally close to an experience of knowing or
being at home (again, if the are not too oppressed)
and they didn't get that way by a method of 'solely through
the struggle with negativity that the minds of finite
creatures could become aware of themselves and thier world
and god.'
kabir said 'at one point in a persons life they forget and never remember again.' childhood's end, the connection with
the breath is gone.
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Date: Mon, Dec 22, 1997 at 14:33:15 (EST)
Poster: The Pharisee
Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net
To: Mili
Subject: Re: Jacob Boehme
Message:
Boehme was an important influence on the Doukhobors and Molokans of Russia. I had a similar epiphany with sunlight, but I was on acid.
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Date: Sat, Dec 20, 1997 at 21:37:44 (EST)
Poster: Mike
Email: bigguy32@juno.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Doom and Gloom Band Wagon
Message:
I just finished watching an interesting piece on Armagedon on TLC/Cable. In conjunction with John's question... I wonder if PPR will be pushing the "End of the World Alarmist" edge, or if he's stepped up such dialogs as we approach 2000?
I remember back in the late 70's early 80's, that he was making some noise about getting here (earth) just in the nick of time to save mankind. I vote that we ship him over to the first dictator that crops up, so he can do his stuff. Maybe if Sadam Husain bust loose again we'll save some military bucks and book PPR a flight to Iraq.
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Date: Sat, Dec 20, 1997 at 21:46:11 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Mike
Subject: Re: Doom and Gloom Band Wagon
Message:
I just finished watching an interesting piece on Armagedon on TLC/Cable. In conjunction with John's question... I wonder if PPR will be pushing the 'End of the World Alarmist' edge, or if he's stepped up such dialogs as we approach 2000?
I remember back in the late 70's early 80's, that he was making some noise about getting here (earth) just in the nick of time to save mankind. I vote that we ship him over to the first dictator that crops up, so he can do his stuff. Maybe if Sadam Husain bust loose again we'll save some military bucks and book PPR a flight to Iraq.
I second that idea. Imagine Saddam meeting Maharaji! It's great, and it might even work. (They might implode!)
BTW, I really don't like that Armageddon stuff, probably because subconciously I still feel that it is going to happen. This is probably a result of (1) a combination of being in first grade in DC during the Cuban Missile Crisis & having a dad who worked in the Pentagon,and (2) being an ex-hippie who (pre-GMJ) truly believed that the end of the world was coming within the next few years and we were all going to have to head for the hills and SURVIVE somehow. Can't believe this stuff still affects me, but I guess old programming dies hard.
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Date: Sat, Dec 20, 1997 at 22:14:22 (EST)
Poster: Sir David
Email:
To: Katie
Subject: Re: Doom and Gloom Band Wagon
Message:
I wouldn't worry Katie. Nobody's got any of these prophesies right yet. I remember in the seventies Maharaji giving satsang and saying that the time for the bombs was coming. We're still waiting.
I read some supposedly highly accurate prophesies by some guy, in the eighties. He predicted a world war would start in 1997 which would culminate in a ferocous nuclear war. That never happened did it. By now, China should have invaded Russia according to this highly accurate prophet, and Europe would enter the conflict next year.
You know, I have never, ever known ANY prophesy come true. I think you can safely say that nobody knows the future and nobody CAN possibly know. I fully expect that when the Millenium comes around, politicians will make boring speaches, more people will have hangovers, our silly dome thing will be erected in Greenwich, London to show how innovative the British are; Elton John will have a new song, the Spice Girls will be performing topless and everybody will go back to work again after a few days holiday and nothing will have changed.
Exept the prophets will shuffle away into the shadows and think of some other story they can try out on us...
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Date: Sat, Dec 20, 1997 at 22:20:33 (EST)
Poster: Mike
Email: bigguy32@juno.com
To: Katie
Subject: Re: Doom and Gloom Band Wagon
Message:
I just finished watching an interesting piece on Armagedon on TLC/Cable. In conjunction with John's question... I wonder if PPR will be pushing the 'End of the World Alarmist' edge, or if he's stepped up such dialogs as we approach 2000?
I remember back in the late 70's early 80's, that he was making some noise about getting here (earth) just in the nick of time to save mankind. I vote that we ship him over to the first dictator that crops up, so he can do his stuff. Maybe if Sadam Husain bust loose again we'll save some military bucks and book PPR a flight to Iraq.
I second that idea. Imagine Saddam meeting Maharaji! It's great, and it might even work. (They might implode!)
BTW, I really don't like that Armageddon stuff, probably because subconciously I still feel that it is going to happen. This is probably a result of (1) a combination of being in first grade in DC during the Cuban Missile Crisis & having a dad who worked in the Pentagon,and (2) being an ex-hippie who (pre-GMJ) truly believed that the end of the world was coming within the next few years and we were all going to have to head for the hills and SURVIVE somehow. Can't believe this stuff still affects me, but I guess old programming dies hard.
We grew up in the same area with the same crap pushed on us. My dad was a Navy Chief stationed on a ship off Cuba during that crisis and I remember my mom telling us that something was going to happen that might "take daddy to heaven."
I live next to NSA - Fort Meade and figure if it's going to happen... I'll probably never know it.
I have more faith in man/womenkind that we'll survive and move into a wonderful age. I see a lot of the alarmist as control freaks who use their dialogs to either get money or publicity for themselves. Since death is part of life, I don't worry about it much. I just do my meditation, tai chi and yoga and try to treat everyone as though it was my last day on earth.
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Date: Sat, Dec 20, 1997 at 22:26:01 (EST)
Poster: Mike
Email: bigguy32@juno.com
To: Sir David
Subject: Edgar Cayce says... (Re: Doom and Gloom Band Wagon)
Message:
I wouldn't worry Katie. Nobody's got any of these prophesies right yet. I remember in the seventies Maharaji giving satsang and saying that the time for the bombs was coming. We're still waiting.
I read some supposedly highly accurate prophesies by some guy, in the eighties. He predicted a world war would start in 1997 which would culminate in a ferocous nuclear war. That never happened did it. By now, China should have invaded Russia according to this highly accurate prophet, and Europe would enter the conflict next year.
You know, I have never, ever known ANY prophesy come true. I think you can safely say that nobody knows the future and nobody CAN possibly know. I fully expect that when the Millenium comes around, politicians will make boring speaches, more people will have hangovers, our silly dome thing will be erected in Greenwich, London to show how innovative the British are; Elton John will have a new song, the Spice Girls will be performing topless and everybody will go back to work again after a few days holiday and nothing will have changed.
Exept the prophets will shuffle away into the shadows and think of some other story they can try out on us...
David - I was thinking about you over there in England while watching the program on TLC. Cayce says that all of Europe will be covered in water in 1998. And that according to Cayce... the world will end in 1999. I figured, since I'm single... I better get started with my own love fest. I'll start a movement to Fuck your way to Enlightenment.
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Date: Sat, Dec 20, 1997 at 22:30:10 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Sir David
Subject: Re: Doom and Gloom Band Wagon
Message:
I wouldn't worry Katie. Nobody's got any of these prophesies right yet. I remember in the seventies Maharaji giving satsang and saying that the time for the bombs was coming. We're still waiting.
I read some supposedly highly accurate prophesies by some guy, in the eighties. He predicted a world war would start in 1997 which would culminate in a ferocous nuclear war. That never happened did it. By now, China should have invaded Russia according to this highly accurate prophet, and Europe would enter the conflict next year.
You know, I have never, ever known ANY prophesy come true. I think you can safely say that nobody knows the future and nobody CAN possibly know. I fully expect that when the Millenium comes around, politicians will make boring speaches, more people will have hangovers, our silly dome thing will be erected in Greenwich, London to show how innovative the British are; Elton John will have a new song, the Spice Girls will be performing topless and everybody will go back to work again after a few days holiday and nothing will have changed.
Exept the prophets will shuffle away into the shadows and think of some other story they can try out on us...
Thanks, David. Although I hope you are not right about the Spice Girls - my 8-year old niece adores them and performing toplessl would not be a good role model for her (and all the other little girls that absolutely love them).
I guess I was just programmed to believe in a military Armageddon as a child and haven't quite gotten over it yet (see Mike's post, and you'll understand more.
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Date: Sat, Dec 20, 1997 at 22:35:24 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email:
To: Mike
Subject: Re: Edgar Cayce says... (Re: Doom and Gloom Band Wagon)
Message:
David - I was thinking about you over there in England while watching the program on TLC. Cayce says that all of Europe will be covered in water in 1998. And that according to Cayce... the world will end in 1999. I figured, since I'm single... I better get started with my own love fest. I'll start a movement to Fuck your way to Enlightenment.
Now Mike, WHY did you have to bring up Edgar Cayce? Before I received knowledge I was hanging out with people who were really into his prophecies, also the Aquarian Gospel of Jesus, and other things like that. Talk about doom and gloom. And I won't even comment on your plan to find enlightenment...
(BTW all of Europe probably won't be covered with water if global warming continues, but some of it will...) But David and family are welcome to come stay with us.
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Date: Sat, Dec 20, 1997 at 22:48:11 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Mike
Subject: Re: Doom and Gloom Band Wagon
Message:
We grew up in the same area with the same crap pushed on us. My dad was a Navy Chief stationed on a ship off Cuba during that crisis and I remember my mom telling us that something was going to happen that might 'take daddy to heaven.'
I live next to NSA - Fort Meade and figure if it's going to happen... I'll probably never know it.
I have more faith in man/womenkind that we'll survive and move into a wonderful age. I see a lot of the alarmist as control freaks who use their dialogs to either get money or publicity for themselves. Since death is part of life, I don't worry about it much. I just do my meditation, tai chi and yoga and try to treat everyone as though it was my last day on earth.
One time when I was about six year old, some sort of alarm went off in the Pentagon (by mistake) and my dad rushed home and got my mom and us kids and drove us all out into the country to get away from the supposed bombs. This was really scary for all of us. My father also bought land about 2 hours south of DC so we would have a place to go in case of nuclear attack. (This was when nuclear bombs were considerably smaller, of course.) He said we would need needles and salt (things you can't make or grow) so we always had a bunch of them around, not to mention old K-rations from the Korean war and the like.
I am not making fun of my father here - I think it was a real fear back then, especially for people working in the Pentagon. I know that some people who lived down the street from us built a bomb shelter in their back yard and I was SO jealous of them. I really wanted my dad to make one, but he was too smart for that.
My point, in case anyone thinks that I am off topic here, is that my whole generation was raised with the fear of imminent death and/or collapse of the social structure. Did everyone else have to go out in the school hallway and cover their heads with their coats during bomb drills? Or was that just in DC? It was terrifying, and it is no wonder we got into things like Edgar Cayce (you do know why all the Edgar Cayce people live in Virginia Beach, don't you?), and so forth. And were vulnerable to Maharaji when he came along.
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Date: Sat, Dec 20, 1997 at 22:58:26 (EST)
Poster: Mike
Email: bigguy32@juno.com
To: Katie
Subject: Re: Edgar Cayce says... (Re: Doom and Gloom Band Wagon)
Message:
David - I was thinking about you over there in England while watching the program on TLC. Cayce says that all of Europe will be covered in water in 1998. And that according to Cayce... the world will end in 1999. I figured, since I'm single... I better get started with my own love fest. I'll start a movement to Fuck your way to Enlightenment.
Now Mike, WHY did you have to bring up Edgar Cayce? Before I received knowledge I was hanging out with people who were really into his prophecies, also the Aquarian Gospel of Jesus, and other things like that. Talk about doom and gloom. And I won't even comment on your plan to find enlightenment...
(BTW all of Europe probably won't be covered with water if global warming continues, but some of it will...) But David and family are welcome to come stay with us.
Katie - you must be a night owl like me. I was just kidding above. As I get older (turning 42 next weekend) I find it takes me longer to know and trust anyone. So, Screwing My Way to Enlightenment is just in jest.
The TLC program kept partially quoting people (Cayce, Phatama Girls etc.,) about the future. I think all in all, it was just a Alarmist Documentory. I read your statement below about your early relationships with premies and the expectations that the community put on you. I'm sorry that happened to you. I've noticed that "spiritual" societies seems to demand denial of sexuality, romance, and any thinking that doesn't make you a drone to what they're pushing. They use shame and blame to control you and make you put up with abuses that you'd normally never stand for. I remember a lot of the premies in the DC community bragging about how much more spiritual they were than I since they didn't engage in "animal activities." (i.e., sex and eating meat).
I don't eat meat now because it doesn't appeal to me and I prefer a long period of courting before sex because I don't want to take on someone that has too much baggage for me to handle. You should read some of the accounts of Ex-TMrs living out in Fairfield Iowa. Most of their stuff sounds just like Ex-Premies.
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Date: Sat, Dec 20, 1997 at 23:15:09 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Mike
Subject: Re: Edgar Cayce says... (Re: Doom and Gloom Band Wagon)
Message:
David - I was thinking about you over there in England while watching the program on TLC. Cayce says that all of Europe will be covered in water in 1998. And that according to Cayce... the world will end in 1999. I figured, since I'm single... I better get started with my own love fest. I'll start a movement to Fuck your way to Enlightenment.
Now Mike, WHY did you have to bring up Edgar Cayce? Before I received knowledge I was hanging out with people who were really into his prophecies, also the Aquarian Gospel of Jesus, and other things like that. Talk about doom and gloom. And I won't even comment on your plan to find enlightenment...
(BTW all of Europe probably won't be covered with water if global warming continues, but some of it will...) But David and family are welcome to come stay with us.
Katie - you must be a night owl like me. I was just kidding above. As I get older (turning 42 next weekend) I find it takes me longer to know and trust anyone. So, Screwing My Way to Enlightenment is just in jest.
The TLC program kept partially quoting people (Cayce, Phatama Girls etc.,) about the future. I think all in all, it was just a Alarmist Documentory. I read your statement below about your early relationships with premies and the expectations that the community put on you. I'm sorry that happened to you. I've noticed that 'spiritual' societies seems to demand denial of sexuality, romance, and any thinking that doesn't make you a drone to what they're pushing. They use shame and blame to control you and make you put up with abuses that you'd normally never stand for. I remember a lot of the premies in the DC community bragging about how much more spiritual they were than I since they didn't engage in 'animal activities.' (i.e., sex and eating meat).
I don't eat meat now because it doesn't appeal to me and I prefer a long period of courting before sex because I don't want to take on someone that has too much baggage for me to handle. You should read some of the accounts of Ex-TMrs living out in Fairfield Iowa. Most of their stuff sounds just like Ex-Premies.
Hi Mike - yes, I am a night owl, but it's only ten o'clock here in the beautiful Midwest. And yes, you are right about former behavior of some of the people in the DC community. But most of of the people there were really nice, although somewhat conservative (just like people in DC in general).
Re: Sex and Meat:
I'm glad you read what I wrote about relationships with premie men. I did have a really hard time, although those years (16-21) are generally kind of rough for everyone. But being a premie definitely made it a lot harder. I'm very glad that I didn't end up married back then.
I have not eaten meat since I was 15 - really had nothing to do with GMJ, but more with my feeling about animals. I don't do it for my health (I used to smoke cigarettes and people would always ask me how I could smoke if I was a vegetarian. I always thought that was a weird question because cigarettes don't contain meat.) Anyway, I don't eat anything that I'm not willing to kill, so I do eat fish and seafood. I am one of those dreaded "animal rights" people, and don't like factory farming of animals, but neither fish or shellfish are abused in this way (fish ARE farmed, but it's not abusive at all.)
I've read a little of the stuff on the Trancenet page, maybe I'll read more since you recommend it. I really like a lot of the stuff on that page - particularly the advice to friends and family members of people that are involved with GMJ, etc.
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Date: Sat, Dec 20, 1997 at 23:15:40 (EST)
Poster: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net
To: Mike
Subject: Re: Doom and Gloom Band Wagon
Message:
I just finished watching an interesting piece on Armagedon on TLC/Cable. In conjunction with John's question... I wonder if PPR will be pushing the 'End of the World Alarmist' edge, or if he's stepped up such dialogs as we approach 2000?
I remember back in the late 70's early 80's, that he was making some noise about getting here (earth) just in the nick of time to save mankind. I vote that we ship him over to the first dictator that crops up, so he can do his stuff. Maybe if Sadam Husain bust loose again we'll save some military bucks and book PPR a flight to Iraq.
I love that crazy eschatological and apocalyptic stuff! I grew up in a Pentecostal church and was convinced that Jesus was coming back at any minute. Of course, being the miserable little sinner that I was (and am), I was sure that I would be left behind. I came home from school one day and no one was there; I knew that the Rapture had taken place and I was left behind! I hated that.
I wrote a paper for a class on eschatology (study of the end) last year about end-of-the-world themes in Supermarket Tabloids. They always quote: the Bible, the Dead Sea Scrolls, Nostradamus, Edgar Cayce, and Evangeline Addams, not to mention a million psychics of whom you have never heard. I've got lots of dates and times for the end of the world (don't tell my wife about that date, she'll KILL me).
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Date: Sun, Dec 21, 1997 at 00:32:34 (EST)
Poster: op
Email:
To: Katie
Subject: Re: Doom and Gloom Band Wagon
Message:
Here I differ from most, again. My parents were neo-bohemians who did civil rights protests in the forties. So when the fifties came around, with threats of bombs, etc., they moved - with me - out of the country. That wasn't the only reason, but I know they wanted me to grow up somewhere where there was (supposedly) no racial hatred, no fear of another war, etc.
We came back to the USA when I was an adolescent, and I had my little bit of the 'take cover' drills, where we all hid under our desks. They seemed absurd to me.
I too take all the fire brimstone damnation and armaggedon stuff with lots of salt. I do think the earth is hanging on by a very thin thread, but I don't think it's celestial will that's put it there.
If you want to know what I've heard M say about all that stuff, I'll post it another time. I gather from the lack of answers to my posts that you're really not that interested in my takes on things.
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Date: Sun, Dec 21, 1997 at 02:04:30 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: op
Subject: Re: Doom and Gloom Band Wagon
Message:
Here I differ from most, again. My parents were neo-bohemians who did civil rights protests in the forties. So when the fifties came around, with threats of bombs, etc., they moved - with me - out of the country. That wasn't the only reason, but I know they wanted me to grow up somewhere where there was (supposedly) no racial hatred, no fear of another war, etc.
We came back to the USA when I was an adolescent, and I had my little bit of the 'take cover' drills, where we all hid under our desks. They seemed absurd to me.
I too take all the fire brimstone damnation and armaggedon stuff with lots of salt. I do think the earth is hanging on by a very thin thread, but I don't think it's celestial will that's put it there.
If you want to know what I've heard M say about all that stuff, I'll post it another time. I gather from the lack of answers to my posts that you're really not that interested in my takes on things.
Actually, op, I am more interested in YOUR take on things than on GMJ's. I hope that's OK. Anyway, my fear of armageddon predates my involvement with GMJ (you can probably see why after reading my posts above), and was of course intensified by all the hippie armageddon predictions in the early 1970's. GMJ never seemed to be that heavily into it, by comparison, anyway.
I'm glad that you weren't scared by hiding under your desk. I know the whole thing was absurd, and it makes me laugh when I think about it now, but it was very scary when I was six years old. I have an old & authentic fallout shelter sign hanging in my house just to make light of some of those bad feelings - it helps a lot.
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Date: Sun, Dec 21, 1997 at 03:44:04 (EST)
Poster: Sir David
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: Mike
Subject: Re: Edgar Cayce says... (Re: Doom and Gloom Band Wagon)
Message:
Now I know why Tony Blair is so keen on building that silly dome thing in Greenwich. When the floods come all the British people will get into the dome and to the strains of the Spice Girls singing Wanabee, we'll all take off and float over to America where we'll be greeted by Lord of The Universe. Shri Mike Ji, at your Love Festival.
Seriously though, that's an absurd prophesy. If Europe was covered by water then so would most of the Middle East and Africa be covered. And most of the east coast of America.
By the way, I think this global warming thing is a fallacy. They've discovered that global temperatures have been fluctuating for millions of years after studying polar ice cores. In the time of King Henry 8th Britain was a much warmer place than it is now because tropical fruits were grown quite easily in Kent.
Then in the 1700s it was much colder in Britain than now and the river Thames would freeze over each winter. They called it the mini ice age and every winter Londoners would hold fairs on the Thames - the ice was that thick.
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Date: Sun, Dec 21, 1997 at 03:58:52 (EST)
Poster: Sir David
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: Katie
Subject: Re: Doom and Gloom Band Wagon
Message:
I'm glad your neice likes the Spice Girls. My daughters of five and six are obsessed with them and I must admit to being a fan myself. Their success and popularity reminds me of what happened with the Beatles back in the sixties.
A word of wisdom to all Lords of the Universe seeking to take over the world - to get the necessary street cred you've GOT to get popular culture on your side. Otherwise, you're just p+++ing in the wind...
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Date: Sun, Dec 21, 1997 at 10:18:27 (EST)
Poster: Mike
Email: bigguy32@juno.com
To: Sir David
Subject: Re: Edgar Cayce says... (Re: Doom and Gloom Band Wagon)
Message:
Now I know why Tony Blair is so keen on building that silly dome thing in Greenwich. When the floods come all the British people will get into the dome and to the strains of the Spice Girls singing Wanabee, we'll all take off and float over to America where we'll be greeted by Lord of The Universe. Shri Mike Ji, at your Love Festival.
Seriously though, that's an absurd prophesy. If Europe was covered by water then so would most of the Middle East and Africa be covered. And most of the east coast of America.
By the way, I think this global warming thing is a fallacy. They've discovered that global temperatures have been fluctuating for millions of years after studying polar ice cores. In the time of King Henry 8th Britain was a much warmer place than it is now because tropical fruits were grown quite easily in Kent.
Then in the 1700s it was much colder in Britain than now and the river Thames would freeze over each winter. They called it the mini ice age and every winter Londoners would hold fairs on the Thames - the ice was that thick.
Dave - you mentioned Dome several times. What dome?
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Date: Sun, Dec 21, 1997 at 10:25:33 (EST)
Poster: op - off topic, but you might find it interesting
Email:
To: Katie
Subject: Re: Doom and Gloom Band Wagon
Message:
I'm glad that you weren't scared by hiding under your desk. I know the whole thing was absurd, and it makes me laugh when I think about it now, but it was very scary when I was six years old. I have an old & authentic fallout shelter sign hanging in my house just to make light of some of those bad feelings - it helps a lot.
Actually, the first time we had such a drill in school I was left hanging. I hadn't been prewarned, and all of a sudden our 6th grade teacher shouted 'TAKE COVER' and everybody scrambled under the tables. Except me.
Finally somebody pulled at the hem of my dress (yes, we all wore dresses to school back in the middle ages) and got me under the table.
I was smart enough to realize that if we were bombed, sitting under a table wasn't going to do much good. I don't think I mentioned it in class, but I remember commenting on it to my mother, and to some kids outside of class.
About that time, I went to a local 'activist' Unitarian church, and heard about the REAL threat of nuclear disaster.
That pushed me into some very major activity fighting against nuclear politics. Here's one side of what happened:
In high school, a friend and I decided to protest shelter drills, having heard that people at other schools were doing it.
The next time there was a drill (the kind where everyone walked out of the room and sat in the hallway - under those watchful 'fallout shelter' signs), my friend and I were in separate classrooms, but we had made a pact. When the bells rang, all the kids filed out of the classroom. Except me.
I sat, my heart beating so loudly I was sure everyone could hear it. I refused to budge. Kids were filing by me saying, Come ON! And I sat, immobile, staring forward.
I was alone in the classroom for about 5 minutes. Wondering whether I'd be expelled, put on detention. Whether I'd fail that class. And feeling an incredible amount of power in that what I was doing was the RIGHT thing.
The next day, the teacher asked to speak to me after class, and I thought, This is it - punishment time. She asked me if I wanted her to report me. If I WANTED her to. She said that some of the people who do this want their names to be seen, so that the numbers are known. I told her I was doing this because I felt shelter drills were absurd AND nuclear war was wrong - I wasn't doing it for the statistics, and it was up to her if she wanted to report me.
I think she liked my response. But more important, I realized that she was on OUR side. The first time in my life that I realized that a teacher could really see some of the things that were important in life, something outside the realm of books and blackboards. And I also realized that there were others in my school who were doing the same thing.
The next time we had a shelter drill, three other people sat out with me (including two who had been in my class in junior high); the time after that we were about seven. After than, the school laid down a regulation that 'children' could not be alone in a classroom, even for five minutes, and we all had to go to the office and get a green slip.
At that point we realized the school was keeping tabs on how many people were protesting. It was very exciting - rows and rows of kids lined up against the walls in the hallways, and this small group, but ever larger at every drill, defiantly walking to the office to get our green slips.
Within that year, the city of New York decided to abandon shelter drills at public schools.
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Date: Sun, Dec 21, 1997 at 11:28:33 (EST)
Poster: The prophet David
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: Mike
Subject: Re: Edgar Cayce says... (Re: Doom and Gloom Band Wagon)
Message:
This dome is called the MIllenium Dome and is being built on wasteland on the bank of the river Thames at Greenwich. Nobody knows for sure why it's being built but evidently it's to celibrate the new millenium.
I think the idea is that it will hold some sort of exibition or something to celibrate the year 2,000. Actually, the new millenium does not start until 2001 but nobody's worried about that.
One reason why people think it's such a silly idea is that within five years of being built, it's going to be pulled down and given over to the private sector who will probably built a shopping mall on the site. People are annoyed here that public funds are being used to reclaim and redevelope the wasteland while in the end, the private sector will benefit from a ready prepared site.
This dome is going to be the biggest in the world, by the way.
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Date: Sun, Dec 21, 1997 at 11:35:54 (EST)
Poster: The prophet David
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: Quick there's a bomb, duck & cover!
Subject: Re: Doom and Gloom Band Wagon
Message:
Yes, I've seen those ridiculous public information films that were being shown in the fifties in America.
Who did they ever think they were kidding with, "Duck & cover." Mind you, it was a catchy tune though.
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Date: Sun, Dec 21, 1997 at 18:11:30 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: op - off topic, but you might find it interesting
Subject: Re: Doom and Gloom Band Wagon
Message:
Thanks op - it's a good story (and quite well-written, I might add).
Regards from Katie
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Date: Sun, Dec 21, 1997 at 18:46:01 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email: joger02@aol.com
To: Katie
Subject: Re: Doom and Gloom Band Wagon
Message:
Actually, op, I am more interested in YOUR take on things than on GMJ's. I hope that's OK. Anyway, my fear of armageddon predates my involvement with GMJ (you can probably see why after reading my posts above), and was of course intensified by all the hippie armageddon predictions in the early 1970's. GMJ never seemed to be that heavily into it, by comparison, anyway.
I'm glad that you weren't scared by hiding under your desk. I know the whole thing was absurd, and it makes me laugh when I think about it now, but it was very scary when I was six years old. I have an old & authentic fallout shelter sign hanging in my house just to make light of some of those bad feelings - it helps a lot.
I also recall getting under the desks and putting our arms over our heads for atomic-blast drills in school. I also recall those stupid public service notices on television.
In the early 60s it was considered partriotic to build a fallout shelter in your back yard. Whole companies were set up to design an build the most up-to-date shelter. My dad and his brothers were union organizers in the 30s and 40s and they were part of the anti-nuclear movement in the 50s. Anyhow, he steadfastly refused to get us a fallout shelter and I remember when I was about 7 or so, being very concerned that my friends had them but we didn't. Anyhow, my dad explained to me that they woudln't work anyway and were just there to give us a false sense of security.
By the mid-60s no one was building fallout shelters anymore. People wised up that they wouldn't work anyway, plus then we had ICBM's and 100 megaton bombs that a fallout shelter would do little to protect you from. .
Anyhow, I recall M saying some pretty stupid stuff about these things. I think he watched a whole lot of television and was influenced by whatever was going on at the time. For example, in the early 80s, during the Reagan "evil empire" period, Randy Prouty told me Maharaji said the allies should have invaded the Soviet Union at the end of WWII and that it had been a BIG mistake not to do that. Even at the time, I thought that was a pretty ignorant thing to say, and, in hindsight, it was REALLY an ignorant thing to say.
Also, in 1983, right after I left the ashram, I attended an introductory program in Miami, at which a few people from the audience were allowed to ask him questions. The program took place only a few days after that TV movie about nuclear war "The Day After" was shown and it was at the height of the "nuclear freeze" movement, etc.
Anyway, in his talk, M said that nuclear war was "imminent". When a person from the audience asked him about opposing nuclear weapons, M just ridiculed her and said it was a total waste of time, implying that just receiving and practicing knowledge was the only thing worthwhile. Even the premies I was with said they thought M had been very condescending and nasty to this woman and entirely dismissive of taking any social or political action to benefit the word. And this was an introductory program!
JW
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Date: Sat, Dec 20, 1997 at 20:06:03 (EST)
Poster: John Cavad
Email: JohnCavad@yahoo.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Meat or No meat?
Message:
What's the deal with vegetarianism? I was one for nearly ten years. Now, I'll sink my teeth into a mountain goat stuffed with buffalo. Are most premies eating vegies only? Does M still strongly recommend it?
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Date: Sun, Dec 21, 1997 at 00:13:16 (EST)
Poster: op
Email:
To: John Cavad
Subject: Re: Meat or No meat?
Message:
You've probably heard it:
M doesn't make any life style reccommendations. If you want to be a vegetarian, be a vegetarian. If you want to eat vegetarians, by all means...
The only parties I know of at the residence have been vegetarian, but at dinners with M in other places, there have been chicken, fish, etc. dishes served.
I don't know any instructors who are still complete vegetarians except the Indians. Mr Ex???
Some premies are complete vegetarians, but that is their own decision.
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Date: Sun, Dec 21, 1997 at 07:52:29 (EST)
Poster: !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Email: bb
To: op
Subject: !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!what? (Re: Meat or No meat? )
Message:
'M doesn't make any lifestyle reccommendations'?
Hi OP
Wow that one stopped me cold.
He has made total and complete lifestyle change reccommendations.
Drop your family
drop your religion
drop your ideas about life
drop your dreams you want to pursue
get rid of all your possesions
stop your sex life
don't get married and have kids
if you already have kids and a wife you can't enjoy it
because you have chosen wrong and can't dedicate your
life to the living lord
don't eat meat
don't eat fish or eggs
you don't need a stereo either
one time maharaji was selling a stereo for $1500
and a girl came up to listen to it and she said she would
buy it and maharaji showed it to her and said 'what does a
premie need a stereo like this for anyway?' and so the girl
left the money and left the stereo.
drop your independence
drop your night life
work night and day (from 9am-3am) at deca the airplane
factory.
have nothing for your self
do only things that he asks for
try to make his dreams come true
drop your expectations of thanks
drop your own mental evolution and just listen to him
listen to other people just talk about him every night
these are just some of the lifestyle changes he INSISTED on.
now he still makes reccommendations go to amaroo to work
for free
work on my house for free or 50 dollars a week
be my valet for free
be my maintenence guy for free
give me your wife
look at me as the power of god on earth
worship me
love me
adore me
work on my events for free
buy my art
buy my products
tell others about me
see my video's
support my trip
don't have a web site
try to stifle any opposition
do it while being 'nice' right chris?
kill em if you get the chance, right mili?
pretend that nothing of the sort is happening and the
past is nothing but lila of the lord, right OP?
Hang out on the fringes and dismiss the suckers as
fearful non thinkers, right Annie?
actually annie you are right and that really kills me.
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Date: Sun, Dec 21, 1997 at 10:01:00 (EST)
Poster: op
Email:
To: !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Subject: Re: !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!what? (Re: Meat or No meat? )
Message:
I don't like repeating myself ad nauseum, and a lot of this was on the old old forum. But
M didn't write the old ashram manual
A lot of the trips that came down in the 70s were the responsibility of good old PAM
An ashram resident told me to abandon my mother when she was sick - M actually sent me home to take care of her for an extended period of time
In my life (puny, but it's mine nonetheless), I offered myself to serve. No one forced me. No one tied me up and kept me in a dark closet until I was ready to.
When I got married and had kids, I went through my very long period of guilt, sometimes wishing the past could be changed. But that was ME, not M - he never rejected me, nor was I denied any service because I wasn't a ashram resident. Actually, the person who most bullied me about it was Arthur Brigham, telling others that I'd ruined my life by getting married.
So in the 70s we tried to live the eastern ashram trip - a lot of us. I'm sorry for those who feel they were pushed into it, but I know I did it on my own. For many people, the Eastern sort of devotional trip didn't work. There are no longer ashrams and the pushiness you describe has not been around for a long long time.
And there are some changes that are permanent. I can't say whether there will ever be ashrams in the West again, but there are definitely no mandates about: food, jobs, clothing, sexual lifestyle (married or not, gay or straight, etc.), amount of money you make or amount of money you donate (no more 10% tithing, no more 'dig into your pockets and empty them' and no more 'if anyone has access to loanable funds - second mortgage, trust funds, friends with credit cards, etc....'), number of kids you have (M did joke with the Indians at one event, telling them they must have been pretty busy since the last time he was there, judging by the number of babies at this event), etc etc etc
He does make some recommendations about doing things (all relating directly to the practice of knowledge), and nearly always follows them with 'if you want to'. You may see it as rhetoric - I feel he really means it. Why have a bunch of people around him who don't really want to be there.
I still get the feeling we're talking in circles, and that's why I don't bother posting replies to such things. You see me as an apologist, I see you as criticising items out of a 20-year-old scrapbook. I'm sure there's a middle ground somewhere, but we don't seem to be headed for it.
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Date: Sun, Dec 21, 1997 at 10:55:40 (EST)
Poster: b
Email: bb
To: mili
Subject: mili (Re: Meat or No meat? )
Message:
sorry about that assumption mili, a few death
threats went to some at least three people and I dint think
it was katie doing it.
I didn't get one and this was a couple months ago but
I should not guess it was you.
how would i know.
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Date: Sun, Dec 21, 1997 at 11:18:09 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: b
Subject: Re: mili (Re: Meat or No meat? )
Message:
sorry about that assumption mili, a few death
threats went to some at least three people and I dint think
it was katie doing it.
I didn't get one and this was a couple months ago but
I should not guess it was you.
how would i know.
I didn't send any death threats to anyone. The Grim Reaper is going to get us all, though!
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Date: Sun, Dec 21, 1997 at 11:29:06 (EST)
Poster: there is another point
Email: bb
To: op
Subject: you might be overlooking (Re: Meat or No meat? )
Message:
At one of the first big ashram organizers conferences
maharaji was reading off what the rules are about
the ashram and someone said 'this sounds like a control trip' and maharji said 'this isn't my trip buddy this is gods' trip, and buddy, god is control tripped.'
He knew damn well ALL the rules and ALL the motions of the
mission. No one ever but you has ever claimed that m
wasn't completely up on the doings of his ashrams and
other interests. He is into detail and he only a few years
ago stopped micromanaging the instructor tours and problems.
Remember when he said he was not a problem solver? That
was in response to his finally having had enough (for
the moment) of some instructor tour decision.
In 74 christmas all the premies were waiting for permission
to go home for christmas and it went all the way to m
and he said no. They have the lord they don't need these
holidays and the family trip.
From then on that was the rule.
At festivals I worked on the stages since 74 and
always he would change things at the last minute
only at last years LA event did he say that at THIS
event he 'stayed back' and left the arrangeing to others.
I'm sure that was temporary.
he comes from that hindu tradition where the guru changes
his mind and has the devotees rebuild his house 50 times
till only the REALLY devoted ones are left.
I remember in Rome 77 a girl was assigned to head the
stage and maharaji ran her into the ground. She didn't
sleep for days and he changed his mind at the last
minute and then was really upset and I remember what a
wreck she was.
Yes of course he has had some humane moments,
I am sure even the worst of dominators have a friendly side.
Some people around all the dictators are always there to
say 'he was really good to me' although maharaji is able to
do some of those things, it is the whole track record
and the fact that many people are switching religions
for devotion to him. and is there a code of behavior
for those people? NO. is there an example to follow? NO
what about all the guys at the mens' breakfast?
what are they to do? there is only a distant
lord who is here and who has a not so good track record.
I can't articulate it at the moment but what about the
example for our children? This is what the lord is like.
This is all you can be, this is all people have been
waiting for, this is the kind of excesses the lord is
allowed and all others can be also unconstrained in thier
behaviors. America will look loke india with thousands of
local lords giving out something and asking for devotion.
It is better the way it is.
The christians are behaving,
the moslems are behaving,
the jew family religion is generally behaving,
maharajis' excesses will ALL leak out eventually,
and tie that to the revealer of knowledge sent by/is god,
and you have a real bad example.
He blew it a long time ago, and his persistent
plowing ahead is an act of selfish lack of concern
for the consequences of his proclaiming his divinity
for all the world to worship now and in the future.
He wan'ts a name in history but he has earned, fair and
square, his skeletons in the closet to be revealed.
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Date: Sun, Dec 21, 1997 at 12:01:25 (EST)
Poster: Sir David
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: there is another point
Subject: Re: you might be overlooking (Re: Meat or No meat? )
Message:
You never fail to hit the nail right on the head, Bill. For sure, when I was in the ashram we were always getting new instructions about what Maharaji wanted us to do, wear, say, eat etc.
I have heard premies say that the old trips of the past were not Maharaji's doing. That's not true. Every heavy trip that was laid on us was because of his command.
I remember something that Maharaji said back then. Durga Ji told him all blissfully that some premie had decided to devote his whole life to Maharaji. Maharaji just retorted that what was the big deal about that? The guy's life was just rubbish anyway!
Such arrogance does backfire eventually.
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Date: Sun, Dec 21, 1997 at 16:00:04 (EST)
Poster: milificent
Email: bb
To: Mili
Subject: the great (Re: Meat or No meat? )
Message:
gee, I keep swearing off wrestleing with anybody and
then I find myself doing it again.
well I think I can do it this time for a while,
I prefer to just get back to marching ahead
exploreing and haveing some fun.
so, do you decorate trees?
I see you like the dead so I will include a bootleg tape.
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Date: Sun, Dec 21, 1997 at 16:03:01 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: milificent
Subject: Re: the great (Re: Meat or No meat? )
Message:
gee, I keep swearing off wrestleing with anybody and
then I find myself doing it again.
well I think I can do it this time for a while,
I prefer to just get back to marching ahead
exploreing and haveing some fun.
so, do you decorate trees?
I see you like the dead so I will include a bootleg tape.
Yeah - we have a fir branch at home, not a whole tree. It's a pagan ritual adapted to Christianity, but we do it all the same!
Do you still have my mailing address?
- Mili
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Date: Sun, Dec 21, 1997 at 16:05:32 (EST)
Poster: his
Email: bb
To: Sir David
Subject: lordship sir david (Re: Meat or No meat? )
Message:
good grief,
he really played it as the lord.
And not the kind of lord that should be looked back in history as the real lord just because he had the crown and
all the trappings.
people have died as a result of his show and others will
in the future as well.
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Date: Sun, Dec 21, 1997 at 18:07:18 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email: joger02@aol.com
To: op
Subject: Re: !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!what? (Re: Meat or No meat? )
Message:
I don't like repeating myself ad nauseum, and a lot of this was on the old old forum. But
M didn't write the old ashram manual
A lot of the trips that came down in the 70s were the responsibility of good old PAM
An ashram resident told me to abandon my mother when she was sick - M actually sent me home to take care of her for an extended period of time
In my life (puny, but it's mine nonetheless), I offered myself to serve. No one forced me. No one tied me up and kept me in a dark closet until I was ready to.
When I got married and had kids, I went through my very long period of guilt, sometimes wishing the past could be changed. But that was ME, not M - he never rejected me, nor was I denied any service because I wasn't a ashram resident. Actually, the person who most bullied me about it was Arthur Brigham, telling others that I'd ruined my life by getting married.
So in the 70s we tried to live the eastern ashram trip - a lot of us. I'm sorry for those who feel they were pushed into it, but I know I did it on my own. For many people, the Eastern sort of devotional trip didn't work. There are no longer ashrams and the pushiness you describe has not been around for a long long time.
And there are some changes that are permanent. I can't say whether there will ever be ashrams in the West again, but there are definitely no mandates about: food, jobs, clothing, sexual lifestyle (married or not, gay or straight, etc.), amount of money you make or amount of money you donate (no more 10% tithing, no more 'dig into your pockets and empty them' and no more 'if anyone has access to loanable funds - second mortgage, trust funds, friends with credit cards, etc....'), number of kids you have (M did joke with the Indians at one event, telling them they must have been pretty busy since the last time he was there, judging by the number of babies at this event), etc etc etc
He does make some recommendations about doing things (all relating directly to the practice of knowledge), and nearly always follows them with 'if you want to'. You may see it as rhetoric - I feel he really means it. Why have a bunch of people around him who don't really want to be there.
I still get the feeling we're talking in circles, and that's why I don't bother posting replies to such things. You see me as an apologist, I see you as criticising items out of a 20-year-old scrapbook. I'm sure there's a middle ground somewhere, but we don't seem to be headed for it.
You also lie, OP, but maybe you are just SO programmed, and so into spin control, that you don't see it as lying. Maybe revisionism is a better word, but I find it insulting in either case, because it trivializes the experience of thousands of people, including me.
By the way, M repeatedly stressed that premies should be vegetarian and I even heard him say it on national television. I guess he doesn't care if premies are vegetarian of not anymore, but he sure used to.
I'm not surprised that M didn't write the ashram manual, I doubt he ever wrote much of anything himself. But the ashram manual was pretty simple: poverty, chastity and obedience. I heard him say such things in ashram meetings giving us direction to be celibate, vegetarian, to be obedient, and to be freed from material posessions. These were NOT PAM, there were HIM. I heard him personally say them with my own ears. And hundreds of other ashram residents heard him say it at the same time as late, at least for me, as 1980. But maybe you didn't lie. Maybe you didn't know about this. Somehow I think not.
M even gave personal agya in the late 70s that there shouldn't be coed ashrams anymore and they were segregated by sex.
I also recall an ashram meeting with M in Miami at Christmastime. He said he was so pleased that we HADN'T gone at Christmas to visit our families and instead stayed with our REAL family (him and his ashrams). At the same time he said we had no ties to our families in fact he said: "the only tie you have to your family is the one they gave you for Christmas." I know he had a shitty relationship with his own family, but it was clear that he didn't want us to pay too much attention to our own families as well. And most of us didn't, to the regret of many of us. It certainly is a regret of mine.
In the 70s and 80s it WASN'T WE that tried to live the eastern ashram trip, we tried to SURRENDER to the eastern ashram trip that Maharaji proscribed. I mean, it wasn't like a bunch of premies got together and made that trip up, now was it? Nice to see you "did your own thing." Good for you, but decidedly untrue for MANY other people, including me. The fact that it doesn't happen ANYMORE is kind of lame, OP, but I, like you, am glad that at least that part of the trip doesn't happen anymore. It's less likely that so many people will get hurt again if that is true.
I also hope what you say about the rest of it, like the illegal fundraising [asking that people max out credit cards, etc, turn over trust funds, take out loans, all to fund M's lifestyle] has been cleaned up too. I mean, I HOPE it has, because it was certainly prevelent while I was involved until 1983. .
OP, I think we could get beyond the "20 year old scrapbook", but in my opinion you won't address it honestly, and the record should be set straight.
I offered myself to serve too. Because I believed who he said he was. No one forced me either, but that really misstates the reality that was going on for most of us. Once committed to being in the ashram and being a premie, it was a very scary thing to leave it, and Maharaji personally said a lot of stuff that scared the shit out of me at even the thought of leaving and living my own life, instead of dedicating it to him. [Ton of vegetables, moving next to a sewage pit, the higher the glass is the more it shatters when it hits the ground, etc.etc.] And I don't think I was any kind of exceptional premie either. Maybe that was why you were so miserable when you left the ashram and got married and thought you had done the wrong thing?
Right, Arthur Brigham was an uptight jerk like a lot of the others, but it was Maharaji who rasied such people to high positions, with power over the rest of us, and it was Maharaji who instructed them on what to do, and it was Maharaji who almost always let them do what they did without comment. Apparently he did comment in your case, but he hasn't even had the courtesy to answer my letters, while I was a premie, or since.
JW
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Date: Sun, Dec 21, 1997 at 19:05:06 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: op
Subject: Re: !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!what? (Re: Meat or No meat? )
Message:
I don't like repeating myself ad nauseum, and a lot of this was on the old old forum. But
M didn't write the old ashram manual
A lot of the trips that came down in the 70s were the responsibility of good old PAM
An ashram resident told me to abandon my mother when she was sick - M actually sent me home to take care of her for an extended period of time
In my life (puny, but it's mine nonetheless), I offered myself to serve. No one forced me. No one tied me up and kept me in a dark closet until I was ready to.
When I got married and had kids, I went through my very long period of guilt, sometimes wishing the past could be changed. But that was ME, not M - he never rejected me, nor was I denied any service because I wasn't a ashram resident. Actually, the person who most bullied me about it was Arthur Brigham, telling others that I'd ruined my life by getting married.
So in the 70s we tried to live the eastern ashram trip - a lot of us. I'm sorry for those who feel they were pushed into it, but I know I did it on my own. For many people, the Eastern sort of devotional trip didn't work. There are no longer ashrams and the pushiness you describe has not been around for a long long time.
And there are some changes that are permanent. I can't say whether there will ever be ashrams in the West again, but there are definitely no mandates about: food, jobs, clothing, sexual lifestyle (married or not, gay or straight, etc.), amount of money you make or amount of money you donate (no more 10% tithing, no more 'dig into your pockets and empty them' and no more 'if anyone has access to loanable funds - second mortgage, trust funds, friends with credit cards, etc....'), number of kids you have (M did joke with the Indians at one event, telling them they must have been pretty busy since the last time he was there, judging by the number of babies at this event), etc etc etc
He does make some recommendations about doing things (all relating directly to the practice of knowledge), and nearly always follows them with 'if you want to'. You may see it as rhetoric - I feel he really means it. Why have a bunch of people around him who don't really want to be there.
I still get the feeling we're talking in circles, and that's why I don't bother posting replies to such things. You see me as an apologist, I see you as criticising items out of a 20-year-old scrapbook. I'm sure there's a middle ground somewhere, but we don't seem to be headed for it.
Dear op - I really like and respect you, as you know. I think you are an extremely intelligent, articulate, and caring person. And a good mom, and un-sanctimonious, and lots of other stuff.
So it just kills me to hear you making excuses for Maharaji. I know that you really love and care for him, but he HAS made mistakes in his life, and not all of these mistakes can be attributed to the influence of his family and PAM. (I know they're not ALL M's fault either.) I start to really dislike Maharaji when I read these explanations that you seem to feel obligated to make for his behavior on certain occasions, or for past events. I just think he's making you into another PAM to take the blame for things that he did wrong. I feel you are losing your personal credibility in your efforts to defend Maharaji against attacks. That makes me angry, at him not you.
I respect and believe in your personal experiences with Maharaji, and I would never try and cast aspersions on that. I even think that I understand why you feel the need to defend and protect him. But I also believe that Joe and Bill are telling the truth, and I don't want to think that you are not. Obviously you all are entitled to different opinions about what happened 10 or 20 years ago and who's fault it was, but I just can't believe that Maharaji wasn't at fault for a lot of what went down back then. If he's changed things now and made them better, then that's good, but that doesn't change the fact that people did get hurt back then. And I think he should take responsibilty for that. I would respect him a lot more if he did.
I am sorry if what I said above hurts you or makes you angry. That wasn't my intention. I just felt like I had to say it.
Regards from Katie
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Date: Mon, Dec 22, 1997 at 01:58:46 (EST)
Poster: uh
Email: bb
To: Mili
Subject: yup (Re: Meat or No meat? )
Message:
gee, I keep swearing off wrestleing with anybody and
then I find myself doing it again.
well I think I can do it this time for a while,
I prefer to just get back to marching ahead
exploreing and haveing some fun.
so, do you decorate trees?
I see you like the dead so I will include a bootleg tape.
Yeah - we have a fir branch at home, not a whole tree. It's a pagan ritual adapted to Christianity, but we do it all the same!
Do you still have my mailing address?
- Mili
of course
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Date: Mon, Dec 22, 1997 at 02:15:21 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: uh
Subject: Re: yup (Re: Meat or No meat? )
Message:
So, Bill, are you going to send me the stuff finally, or are you just jerking me around?
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Date: Mon, Dec 22, 1997 at 02:45:43 (EST)
Poster: sheesh
Email: bb
To: Mili
Subject: mili (Re: Meat or No meat? )
Message:
what kind of language is that?
You fergot what I told you before,
the box is over there, chris just got a t-shirt added
to his, and you just got a dead tape added,
look, I think it is holding you back from blasting me
sometimes but don't worry about it, say what you want,
you'll still get the box.
I've got the blank tapes already but the record player to tape combo is not in sight yet and also I planned to wander through the archives again and find the 'who is satguru'
speech and that is a chore I have to be a little more
calmed down to do. just stay alive into 98 and you'll find
yourself with it.
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Date: Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 18:31:25 (EST)
Poster: op
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!what? (Re: Meat or No meat? )
Message:
I'm not surprised that M didn't write the ashram manual, I doubt he ever wrote much of anything himself. But the ashram manual was pretty simple: poverty, chastity and obedience. I heard him say such things in ashram meetings giving us direction to be celibate, vegetarian, to be obedient, and to be freed from material posessions. These were NOT PAM, there were HIM. I heard him personally say them with my own ears. And hundreds of other ashram residents heard him say it at the same time as late, at least for me, as 1980. But maybe you didn't lie. Maybe you didn't know about this. Somehow I think not.
Actually, you're right - I wasn't at those ashram meetings, so I'll keep my trap shut about things I don't know first-hand.
I do have friends who were at those meetings, of course, and they had a rather different take on them.
As for the ashram manual, that I know he didn't write, so we're squared away there.
Happy Christmas - BTW.
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Date: Wed, Dec 24, 1997 at 00:16:14 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: op
Subject: Re: !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!what? (Re: Meat or No meat? )
Message:
I'm not surprised that M didn't write the ashram manual, I doubt he ever wrote much of anything himself. But the ashram manual was pretty simple: poverty, chastity and obedience. I heard him say such things in ashram meetings giving us direction to be celibate, vegetarian, to be obedient, and to be freed from material posessions. These were NOT PAM, there were HIM. I heard him personally say them with my own ears. And hundreds of other ashram residents heard him say it at the same time as late, at least for me, as 1980. But maybe you didn't lie. Maybe you didn't know about this. Somehow I think not.
Actually, you're right - I wasn't at those ashram meetings, so I'll keep my trap shut about things I don't know first-hand.
I do have friends who were at those meetings, of course, and they had a rather different take on them.
As for the ashram manual, that I know he didn't write, so we're squared away there.
Happy Christmas - BTW.
What "different take" did your friends have of the ashram meetings. Do they disagree with anything the ex-premies have mentioned that Maharaji said to them?
Regarding the ashram manual, I didn't say I agreed he didn't write it, I said I wouldn't be surprised if he didn't. I don't know either way. But really OP, after about 1975, the ashram manual was hardly even in existence. The set-up and running of the ashrams were taken over directly by M, just the the running of everything else in DLM. He got his fingers right into it.
Merrry Christmas to you too.
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Date: Sat, Dec 20, 1997 at 19:50:16 (EST)
Poster: John Cavad
Email:
To: Everyone
Subject: World Peace
Message:
What ever happened to World Peace? That was part of the seductiveness of M's mission in the early days. Has he realized this is not the right century for that laudable goal? Man has not evolved to that point anyway, in my opinion (speaking as an anthropologist).
Current premies or recent ex-premies, please shed some "light" on this subject. (This subject is certainly worthy of a serious response, not like over half the garbage that ends up written on this forum). Thanks.
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Date: Sat, Dec 20, 1997 at 20:04:11 (EST)
Poster: Rick
Email: rtaraday@hotmail.com
To: John Cavad
Subject: Re: World Peace
Message:
(This subject is certainly worthy of a serious response, not like over half the garbage that ends up written on this forum). Thanks.
That's quite a clumsy comment for someone asking for a response. If your digging up artifacts in the same fashion, I'm afraid you're going to break them.
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Date: Sat, Dec 20, 1997 at 20:17:41 (EST)
Poster: John Cavad
Email:
To: Rick
Subject: Re: World Peace
Message:
(This subject is certainly worthy of a serious response, not like over half the garbage that ends up written on this forum). Thanks.
That's quite a clumsy comment for someone asking for a response. If your digging up artifacts in the same fashion, I'm afraid you're going to break them.
Case in point, Rick. That's not a responsible response to my question. Forums should be used responsibly. Disk space cost money, and I, among most others, prefer to use a forum for worth while discussion. Please, don't displace your anger on someone like me.
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Date: Sat, Dec 20, 1997 at 20:41:07 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email:
To: John Cavad
Subject: Re: World Peace
Message:
(This subject is certainly worthy of a serious response, not like over half the garbage that ends up written on this forum). Thanks.
That's quite a clumsy comment for someone asking for a response. If your digging up artifacts in the same fashion, I'm afraid you're going to break them.
Case in point, Rick. That's not a responsible response to my question. Forums should be used responsibly. Disk space cost money, and I, among most others, prefer to use a forum for worth while discussion. Please, don't displace your anger on someone like me.
Dear John C.-
I agree with Rick. I didn't like that part of your post either. Perhaps you consider something "worthwhile" but I do not. Or vice versa. Anyway, it's a judgement call, and who is going to make it?
BTW, I'm not a recently ex-premie or an premie so I won't try to answer your question.
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Date: Sat, Dec 20, 1997 at 21:25:39 (EST)
Poster: Mike
Email: bigguy32@juno.com
To: Katie
Subject: All the saber shaking aside... (Re: World Peace)
Message:
John - This forum is intense enough without turning the tension up further. Most of us have been talking to each other for some time now and from time to time we feel comfortable enough with each other to reduce stress by joking a bit.
To answer your question: PPR is not alone with promises of "World Peace" and "Bliss for All!" Most of the quacks out there promise this a part of the package in my opinion. We mere humans are silly enough to trust these guys and have our hearts broken. Some of these jokers promise everything from levitation to soul travel and in certain desperate and vunerable times in our lives... we buy it. However, sooner or latter, the truth always comes out.
Some time ago, there was some discussion of what we will do when humpty comes down from his wall? I've seen several Swamis, Bhagwans, Rishis and Yogis fall from a great height and have to answer to some pretty hard charges. I think the differnce in how we treat our own spiritual quacks as opposed to some foreign quack is just now starting to even out. In the case of John Rogers for example, John has gotten to desperate that he's start to sue his ex-devotees for various preceived crimes. Darwin Gross of Eckankar has started telling his devotees that it's ok to use negative Eck practices to take down false "Mahantas." Interesting enough, the word "Mahanta" is a term used by Indians to describe a quack. The other terms they use are "Fakir" which translates to faker. Paul Twitchell, the founder of Eckankar didn't steal spiritual terms he understood.
I've been digging a bit and found that it was Mata Ji that was initially pushing the World Savior bit on early premies in her satsang. Shri Hans and the rest of the boys would refer to it every so often however, they didn't push that edge as much as Mata Ji.
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Date: Sat, Dec 20, 1997 at 21:37:49 (EST)
Poster: katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Mike
Subject: Re: All the saber shaking aside... (Re: World Peace)
Message:
John - This forum is intense enough without turning the tension up further. Most of us have been talking to each other for some time now and from time to time we feel comfortable enough with each other to reduce stress by joking a bit.
To answer your question: PPR is not alone with promises of 'World Peace' and 'Bliss for All!' Most of the quacks out there promise this a part of the package in my opinion. We mere humans are silly enough to trust these guys and have our hearts broken. Some of these jokers promise everything from levitation to soul travel and in certain desperate and vunerable times in our lives... we buy it. However, sooner or latter, the truth always comes out.
Some time ago, there was some discussion of what we will do when humpty comes down from his wall? I've seen several Swamis, Bhagwans, Rishis and Yogis fall from a great height and have to answer to some pretty hard charges. I think the differnce in how we treat our own spiritual quacks as opposed to some foreign quack is just now starting to even out. In the case of John Rogers for example, John has gotten to desperate that he's start to sue his ex-devotees for various preceived crimes. Darwin Gross of Eckankar has started telling his devotees that it's ok to use negative Eck practices to take down false 'Mahantas.' Interesting enough, the word 'Mahanta' is a term used by Indians to describe a quack. The other terms they use are 'Fakir' which translates to faker. Paul Twitchell, the founder of Eckankar didn't steal spiritual terms he understood.
I've been digging a bit and found that it was Mata Ji that was initially pushing the World Savior bit on early premies in her satsang. Shri Hans and the rest of the boys would refer to it every so often however, they didn't push that edge as much as Mata Ji.
Hi Mike - do you have quotes from Mata Ji, Maharaji, etc. that say that? I'm just curious. That's one of the reasons that I got so into DLM - I really thought it was going to help save the world (for example the "Peace Bomb" speech).
But OP did post something recently that said GMJ's goal was still to spread knowledge to the whole world. Seems like that would be hard to do at the rate he's progressing.
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Date: Sat, Dec 20, 1997 at 22:13:08 (EST)
Poster: Mike
Email: bigguy32@juno.com
To: katie
Subject: Re: All the saber shaking aside... (Re: World Peace)
Message:
John - This forum is intense enough without turning the tension up further. Most of us have been talking to each other for some time now and from time to time we feel comfortable enough with each other to reduce stress by joking a bit.
To answer your question: PPR is not alone with promises of 'World Peace' and 'Bliss for All!' Most of the quacks out there promise this a part of the package in my opinion. We mere humans are silly enough to trust these guys and have our hearts broken. Some of these jokers promise everything from levitation to soul travel and in certain desperate and vunerable times in our lives... we buy it. However, sooner or latter, the truth always comes out.
Some time ago, there was some discussion of what we will do when humpty comes down from his wall? I've seen several Swamis, Bhagwans, Rishis and Yogis fall from a great height and have to answer to some pretty hard charges. I think the differnce in how we treat our own spiritual quacks as opposed to some foreign quack is just now starting to even out. In the case of John Rogers for example, John has gotten to desperate that he's start to sue his ex-devotees for various preceived crimes. Darwin Gross of Eckankar has started telling his devotees that it's ok to use negative Eck practices to take down false 'Mahantas.' Interesting enough, the word 'Mahanta' is a term used by Indians to describe a quack. The other terms they use are 'Fakir' which translates to faker. Paul Twitchell, the founder of Eckankar didn't steal spiritual terms he understood.
I've been digging a bit and found that it was Mata Ji that was initially pushing the World Savior bit on early premies in her satsang. Shri Hans and the rest of the boys would refer to it every so often however, they didn't push that edge as much as Mata Ji.
Hi Mike - do you have quotes from Mata Ji, Maharaji, etc. that say that? I'm just curious. That's one of the reasons that I got so into DLM - I really thought it was going to help save the world (for example the 'Peace Bomb' speech).
But OP did post something recently that said GMJ's goal was still to spread knowledge to the whole world. Seems like that would be hard to do at the rate he's progressing.
Hi Katie - I've got the satsangs from Delhi and from the Spiritual Life Society from the early 60's and early 80's respectively. I'll type them up and upload them for everyone.
What drew me to DLM was I was really drawn to the spiritual powers references that Bola Ji made all the time. I was very into martial arts at the time and being able someday to throw Krishna's Disk really enticed me.
Anyway, when Shri Hans was alive... Mata Ji would refer to Charin Singh and Shri Hans as "the spiritual masters to bring music and light to mens souls again." Note: nothing was said about the Holy Name by her in this period.
When Charin passed, she focused all her energies on Shri Hans.
In the Radha Saomi trad., they practice Shabid and Tratak Yoga which manifest from an intense practice of Japa of the Five Holy Names (i.e., Rama, Rama, Ramu, Rama, Ram) found in the Guru Granth Sahib, pg 90 verse 26.6, of the World Gospel Series.
According the Radha Saomi Trad., only a Radha Saomi Guru can initiate a chela (disciple). Shri Hans is on record as being part of this sect as a very high level coordinator. Some of the old Mahatmas said that Mata Ji would only give satsang when both Shri Hans and Charin Singh weren't around... funny about that huh?
Interesting that Paul Twitchell didn't start his version of Shabid Yoga (a.k.a. Eckankar) until Kirpal Singh passed. When the cats away;)
Also interesting, Mata Ji really didn't focus on PPR in as direct of a manner as on Satya Pal (a.k.a Bhagwan Ji).
She would refer to the masters that come from age to age to save... but never to PPR as "the one."
After the split, I'd listen to her go on and on about, how she did service to PPR's work only to set the stage for Satya Pal and that now is the time for the "true" master to take his place. She spoke of PPR as a kind of John the Babtist. She would also rant about the mysterious circumstances around Shri Hans death. But that's another story.
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Date: Sun, Dec 21, 1997 at 00:06:34 (EST)
Poster: op
Email:
To: Mike
Subject: Re: All the saber shaking aside... (Re: World Peace)
Message:
After the split, I'd listen to her go on and on about, how she did
service to PPR's work only to set the stage for Satya Pal and that now
is the time for the 'true' master to take his place. She spoke of PPR as a kind of John the Babtist. She would also rant about the mysterious circumstances around Shri Hans death. But that's another story.
I was courted by Mataji and Bal Bhagwan (Satya Pal, in your words) after the split, but I never went to any of their meetings. I felt like they were both grabbing as hard as they could to pick up a few pieces that might be left over. Where Mataji had been harsh with me, she was suddenly ready to accept my every foible and take me with her wherever she went.
I'd be interested in hearing more about what happened on that side after the split. And I'd be VERY interested in hearing about the 'mysterious circumstances around Shri Hans's death' - I've heard M's side, and it's not very flattering to Mataji.
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Date: Sun, Dec 21, 1997 at 15:02:09 (EST)
Poster: bftb
Email:
To: John Cavad
Subject: Re: World Peace
Message:
(This subject is certainly worthy of a serious response, not like over half the garbage that ends up written on this forum). Thanks.
That's quite a clumsy comment for someone asking for a response. If your digging up artifacts in the same fashion, I'm afraid you're going to break them.
Case in point, Rick. That's not a responsible response to my question. Forums should be used responsibly. Disk space cost money, and I, among most others, prefer to use a forum for worth while discussion. Please, don't displace your anger on someone like me.
Displace anger?Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.Your second post was passive agressive as well as condescending.
But that's just how it struck me.I mean you no offense.
To answer your question,I can recall M saying something like(and this won't be an exact quote;it's from memory.I heard him say this in '90or'91)"Save the world.I used to believe in that.No;it'll happen one individual at a time"
that was the gist;sounded like he had learned from his mistake and was trying to articulate that he'd seen the light with regards to 'world peace'.
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Date: Sat, Dec 20, 1997 at 16:34:25 (EST)
Poster: Nigel
Email: nlonghurst@aol.co.uk
To: Everyone
Subject: Lord of the Unicorns (reprise)
Message:
Wow... I sparked off quite chat there. Hey kids, don't play with matches!
Listen. I've been really stupid but have seen the error of my ways... We
don't need a NEW theme song - WE'VE ALREADY GOT ONE. Are you ready, folks?
On your knees and light that candle... If the smelly old hippy's here, burn
some incense. Let's get devotional, one more time for old time's sake:
(gentle guitar picking - key of D major)
Vegetation begins in the word of our master
Re-education begins at the feet of our lord
Subjugation begins in the form of our master
Humiliation begins in the grace of our lord.
(Guitar starts strumming in a non-sexy surrendered sort of way. ALL TOGETHER
NOW...)
Jai Gurudev Maharaj ji
Your glory fills your head
Exploiter of the weary and the weak
You know the power of entrapment
You showed us all just what 'crap' meant
Realization don't come cheap, Jai Dev
Jai Satguru Dev
Fabricator, self-server, destroyer
Why do they bow and pray to you?
(Have they really nothing better to do?)
Guru gives true Knowledge
Sign on right here at Mindwarp College (*)
Realization don't come cheap, Jai Dev
Jai Satguru Dev
(* The International Learning Center)
Chanting, fasting, charity, austerity
Will never bring you knowledge of the soul
Will never reveal your soul
Without the grace of Satguru
WITH OR WITHOUT our rich fat guru
Realization don't come cheap, Jai Dev
Jai Satguru Dev
In the river of bondage to mindlessness
All are swept out to sea
All are drowning there so blissfully
Guru's boat is a holey one
A 'watch yourself drown very slowly' one
Realization don't come cheap, Jai Dev
Jai Satguru Dev
Anger, desires, attachments
Are what being human's all about
Things we couldn't really do without
Guru don't like self-expression,
But anger suppressed is depression
PREMIE, LOSE YOUR CHAINS, STAND UP AND SHOUT! (Jai Dev,
Jai Satguru Dev)
Jai Gurudev Maharaj ji
Tell us please, what sets you so apart?
(Why should people even give a fart?)
Without the grace of Satguru
We might all find we've a lot to do
Science, music, poetry and art, jai Dev
F*** OFF Satguru Dev.
I love this forum, and I love you all, even though none of you have ever
kissed my feet or bought me a residence.
> PS to Mili. I hope you see sense soon. You are definitely 'in your head',
an awful lot
of the time. It's the best place to be, believe me.
PPS> This posting might have been even longer, but I can't remember ARTI
beyond verse five. If anyone can oblige, I'll subvert the rest of it in due
course.
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Date: Sat, Dec 20, 1997 at 16:50:54 (EST)
Poster: Mike
Email: NewKidsOnTheBlockAnand.com
To: Nigel
Subject: One more time!!! (Re: Lord of the Unicorns (reprise))
Message:
I'm just wild about Hari... and Hari's wild about me! Oh, I'm just wild about Hari... cannot do without... don't know what it's all about... Hari's wild about MEeeeeeeeeeee!!!
Sorry, nigel and I will go back to our cages now ;)
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Date: Sat, Dec 20, 1997 at 16:58:38 (EST)
Poster: Mike
Email: JustVenting.com
To: Mike
Subject: Waiting the Word of the Master??? (Re: Lord of the Unicorns (reprise))
Message:
I'm waiting on the word of the master...
Watching the hidden light
Looking for his faintess gesture...
About the heads of the insane... (those, not in their mind)
Oh, I'm waiting for his slightess gesture...
above the heads of the insane.
Cause, at the feet of PPR...
that's were you really get robbed...
cause we're all fooled, we're all fooled
we're all fooled... we're foooollleeddd....
by his disgrace.
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Date: Sat, Dec 20, 1997 at 20:57:10 (EST)
Poster: Sir David
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: Mike
Subject: Calling all cars (Re: Lord of the Unicorns (reprise))
Message:
Attention all Mind Police! Disturbance in thread above.
_____________________________________________
Get out of your cages, remove your straight-jackets, quit your padded cells and proceed in uniform to scene of disturbance and await further instructions.
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Date: Sat, Dec 20, 1997 at 21:07:25 (EST)
Poster: Mike
Email:
To: Sir David
Subject: Dam, we're busted and don't even have a piano! (Re: Lord of the Unicorns (reprise))
Message:
Attention all Mind Police! Disturbance in thread above.
_____________________________________________
Get out of your cages, remove your straight-jackets, quit your padded cells and proceed in uniform to scene of disturbance and await further instructions.
Ok officer, I confess, nigel had a mind gun to my head... I'm innocent see... I even do the Innocent Breath Technique ;)
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Date: Sat, Dec 20, 1997 at 23:52:45 (EST)
Poster: op
Email:
To: Brian
Subject: Re: Lord of the Unicorns (reprise)
Message:
Wow... I sparked off quite chat there. Hey kids, don't play with matches!
Listen. I've been really stupid but have seen the error of my ways... We
don't need a NEW theme song - WE'VE ALREADY GOT ONE. Are you ready, folks?
On your knees and light that candle... If the smelly old hippy's here, burn
some incense. Let's get devotional, one more time for old time's sake:
(gentle guitar picking - key of D major)
Vegetation begins in the word of our master
Re-education begins at the feet of our lord
Subjugation begins in the form of our master
Humiliation begins in the grace of our lord.
(Guitar starts strumming in a non-sexy surrendered sort of way. ALL TOGETHER
NOW...)
Jai Gurudev Maharaj ji
Your glory fills your head
Exploiter of the weary and the weak
You know the power of entrapment
You showed us all just what 'crap' meant
Realization don't come cheap, Jai Dev
Jai Satguru Dev
Fabricator, self-server, destroyer
Why do they bow and pray to you?
(Have they really nothing better to do?)
Guru gives true Knowledge
Sign on right here at Mindwarp College (*)
Realization don't come cheap, Jai Dev
Jai Satguru Dev
(* The International Learning Center)
Chanting, fasting, charity, austerity
Will never bring you knowledge of the soul
Will never reveal your soul
Without the grace of Satguru
WITH OR WITHOUT our rich fat guru
Realization don't come cheap, Jai Dev
Jai Satguru Dev
In the river of bondage to mindlessness
All are swept out to sea
All are drowning there so blissfully
Guru's boat is a holey one
A 'watch yourself drown very slowly' one
Realization don't come cheap, Jai Dev
Jai Satguru Dev
Anger, desires, attachments
Are what being human's all about
Things we couldn't really do without
Guru don't like self-expression,
But anger suppressed is depression
PREMIE, LOSE YOUR CHAINS, STAND UP AND SHOUT! (Jai Dev,
Jai Satguru Dev)
Jai Gurudev Maharaj ji
Tell us please, what sets you so apart?
(Why should people even give a fart?)
Without the grace of Satguru
We might all find we've a lot to do
Science, music, poetry and art, jai Dev
F*** OFF Satguru Dev.
I love this forum, and I love you all, even though none of you have ever
kissed my feet or bought me a residence.
> PS to Mili. I hope you see sense soon. You are definitely 'in your head',
an awful lot
of the time. It's the best place to be, believe me.
PPS> This posting might have been even longer, but I can't remember ARTI
beyond verse five. If anyone can oblige, I'll subvert the rest of it in due
course.
Now THIS is funny. Why am I not insulted by it?
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Date: Sun, Dec 21, 1997 at 02:02:37 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email:
To: op
Subject: Re: Lord of the Unicorns (reprise)
Message:
Well that thing is definitely not going to hit Number One or the Top Ten for that matter. It's going down the charts already.
Hey, you ex-premies already have an ex-initiator and an ex-community coordinator. Now you can also sing ex-Arti!
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Date: Sun, Dec 21, 1997 at 02:11:14 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: op
Subject: Re: Lord of the Unicorns (reprise)
Message:
I love this forum, and I love you all, even though none of you have ever
kissed my feet or bought me a residence.
> PS to Mili. I hope you see sense soon. You are definitely 'in your head',
an awful lot
of the time. It's the best place to be, believe me.
PPS> This posting might have been even longer, but I can't remember ARTI
beyond verse five. If anyone can oblige, I'll subvert the rest of it in due
course.
Now THIS is funny. Why am I not insulted by it?
Probably because it's just plain and simply irreverent. Sort of like "Glory glory Hallelujah, teacher hit me with a ruler..." or "We 3 Kings of Orient are, tried to smoke a rubber cigar..." You have kids, you know what I mean, right? (I had a lot of fun teaching my nephews and niece those songs...)
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Date: Sun, Dec 21, 1997 at 04:44:56 (EST)
Poster: Sir David
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: Mili
Subject: Re: Lord of the Unicorns (reprise)
Message:
Yes, and all we need now is an ex-Lord of the Universe.
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Date: Sun, Dec 21, 1997 at 07:09:53 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Nigel
Subject: Re: Lord of the Unicorns (reprise)
Message:
Gosh, Nigel, you will be late for your National Front meeting!
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Date: Sun, Dec 21, 1997 at 09:23:16 (EST)
Poster: op - off topic
Email:
To: Katie
Subject: Re: Lord of the Unicorns (reprise)
Message:
>
Probably because it's just plain and simply irreverent. Sort of like 'Glory glory Hallelujah, teacher hit me with a ruler...' or 'We 3 Kings of Orient are, tried to smoke a rubber cigar...' You have kids, you know what I mean, right? (I had a lot of fun teaching my nephews and niece those songs...)
You're absolutely right, of course. And I'm glad you know those other wonderful songs - my post-adolescent kids still love them.
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Date: Sun, Dec 21, 1997 at 10:27:50 (EST)
Poster: Mike
Email: NewExLordAnand.com
To: Sir David
Subject: Re: Lord of the Unicorns (reprise)
Message:
Yes, and all we need now is an ex-Lord of the Universe.
Me, me, me, I'll volunteer! I've got my own clown car and I can destroy the english language better than PPR. And besides... I'm cute ;)
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Date: Sat, Dec 20, 1997 at 00:50:21 (EST)
Poster: Michael
Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net
To: Everyone
Subject: Chatty Kinda Post
Message:
I live in the San Francisco Bay Area (Berkeley), and I was wondering if any other ex-premies live in the area. If so, would you be interested in getting together for pizza and beer or coffee or something? I'd really like to meet some of you, if at all interested. If so, post here or e-mail me.
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Date: Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 23:00:53 (EST)
Poster: pussy
Email: bb
To: Everyone
Subject: patch
Message:
excuse the thread title but
well, christ-opher, you mentioned jackie-o's
did you change your message after you wrote it
here? I am sure it was slightly different
a couple days ago. I didn't realize there was
a way to alter your post after you posted it.
apparently there is.
Anyway, you had said 'just kidding' before you
changed it, and so I thought, hmmm, what kind of
bar IS that?
It brought to mind a time in manhatten when
my wife and I were strolling around and I had to
pee. I was looking for a place and my wife was
chatting about the buildings and I saw a bar
with the name 'pussy patch' I thought what the
hell typw of name is that? I looked in the window
and saw a bunch of women and thought christ
it's a lesbian bar. So I thought 'this will
be good' and took maryclaire in her edith
bunker innocence inside and left her at a stand
up table in the center of the room.
I went to the bathrooms and they were labeled;
victor, victoria. So I took a deep breath
and went into victor, two tough looking broads
gave me a deadly stare and I backed out.
So I went into victoria, I was going to go
in if I had to fight because I had to pee and
that was that. I was alone and I went into the
stall and spent some time reading the grafitti,
'why not outlaw hetrosexuality instead of
abortion? strike at the source.'
'if space and time are curved, where do all the
straight people come from?'
'my lesbianism is an act of christian charity.
all those women are out there praying for a man and I am giving them my share.'
'How do people get to be homosexual?
Homosexuals are chosen first on talent, then
interview, and then the swimsuit and evening
gown competitions'
'what's the difference between men and pigs?
pigs don't get drunk and act like men.'
meanwhile, while I have completely forgotten
where I am, maryclaire is innocently and
niavely looking around the room and seeing
people looking at her and she greets each one with a smile and a wave or hello, she is thinking
what a friendly group when one comes over
to meet this fresh faced buxom beauty and offered
her a drink. She declined but that was when she realized the bar was filled with only women and
her face is so transparent you can see whatever
she is feeling plain as day. Some of the girls watching her start to laugh because she is
doing a classic edith bunker facial meltdown.
I come out of the bathroom and bump into a
women with a t shirt that says;'the family tree
stops here'
I see mary is in major blush mode and she said
'they are all women here.' not wanting to say the
'L' word.
Well chris, do you remember your tao as
number one?
you said,
wild nights in new york
red light, danger ahead.
maybe that is something to look at, you might
be best to avoid any danger of any sort.
You deal with computers all day, you are
controlled on the web site, surely you must
have a wild outlet, I do remember your
email of a long time ago and you are
ready for a fist fight. by the way, that
reminds me, I put a promise keeper muscle T-shirt
in your box, It is a little tight on me, try to
bulk up and fill it out and we can have an
AB contest and the next new england 3 day event.
I'll be outside selling bric-a-brac and
toiletries. And T-shirts with your Tao quotes
on them.
So you never did email me by the way.
Tomorrow I will post some pictures.
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Date: Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 23:34:23 (EST)
Poster: CD
Email:
To: Billy Boy Bong
Subject: Re: patch
Message:
Bill,
So you HAVE been hanging out at Jackie-Os recently.
I seem to have struck a chord.
Not sure where you got the fist fight idea.
Lets get out on the surf on some boards instead for the duel.
Regarding the T-shirt.
How the heck big are you anyway? 400lbs?
I am about 20lbs over at the moment at 225 and 6'2"
I like blues bars (Blind Melons) and a beer bar (San Diego link on my web site) where the food is quite exceptional and people are sociable.
Forget the toiletries and focus on the Tao T-shirts.
And do something about that d@vid thing for me.
Now, back to the peace, love and hate debate and on to New Years, success and fulfillment.
Regards,
CD
www.cdickey.com
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Date: Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 17:06:08 (EST)
Poster: John Cavad
Email:
To: Everyone
Subject: Publicity
Message:
In the old days there were full page adds in the Miami Herald declaring how M will spread peace to the world. There were magazine interviews. Lots of publicity. The media was on top of much of the action. How about today? Is there any publicity anymore? What happened to Joe, the old Press Secretary? I had to constantly defer reporters to him. Does the media give a hoot anymore? And does M try to avoid any publicity whether initiated by him or not?
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Date: Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 17:33:49 (EST)
Poster: John K.
Email:
To: John Cavad
Subject: Re: Publicity
Message:
Rich gurus are passe, and he's not a teenager anymore so that angle is out, yeah probably the media does not care, but I bet M could get on Larry King if he wanted to, of course he could, if he can still get thousands to come to the miami convention center, he could get on sally jesse raphael or wherever.
Actually I think it's to his credit that he doesn't seek out that kind of publicity.
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Date: Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 18:01:05 (EST)
Poster: d@vid
Email: d@vid
To: John K.
Subject: Re: Publicity
Message:
Have you seen Maharaji's last TV interview? It's wonderful. Click
here to read it.
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Date: Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 18:15:39 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: John Cavad
Subject: Re: Publicity
Message:
In the old days there were full page adds in the Miami Herald declaring how M will spread peace to the world. There were magazine interviews. Lots of publicity. The media was on top of much of the action. How about today? Is there any publicity anymore? What happened to Joe, the old Press Secretary? I had to constantly defer reporters to him. Does the media give a hoot anymore? And does M try to avoid any publicity whether initiated by him or not?
M has never been very good in interviews. One time I saw an old interview of when he was on an afternoon talk show: I think it was the Michael Douglas Show. Mike was pretty easy on M, but he still came accross as very strange to the average person and most of the publicity generated about him was either negative or otherwise unflattering. So, I think he has decided he is better off just avoiding it.
In 1979, Life Magazine wanted to do a story on Maharaj Ji and Holi Festival. The point person at DLM with Life was Michael Bergman. In early 1979 I was part of National Headquarters in Miami (at the Broadripple Hotel) and Holi was coming up in April. Michael was assured that it would be a beautiful, positive story and we were all excited about seeing it come out. Life photographers were let into the Orange Bowl were Holi was held.
Now, given, that was a STRANGE event. M used big fire hoses to spray colored water and wore that strange Krishna outfit in which he was bare from the waist up except a garland of flowers. And the premies, well, you know how they were .. and the music, well, one of the songs blasted through the Orange Bowl during was that Rod Stewart song with the words: "do you think I'm sexy, do you want my body.." in retrospect, probably not the best choice.
Anyway the article basically stated what was happening with the pictures, but with just enough sarcasm that it made M look AWFUL -- kind of like the most bizarre cult in the world. It had full-page color pictures that were not flattering. They even quoted the lyrics from the Rod Stewart song. And this was a huge, national publication that goes to millions of homes accross America.
Anyway, I really felt sorry for Michael Bergman. He was devestated and actually had a nervous breakdown. He left Miami to live in a premie house in Michigan, I think.
So, his experience with the press hasn't been good.
JW
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Date: Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 18:22:10 (EST)
Poster: d@vid
Email: d@vid
To: JW
Subject: Re: Publicity
Message:
Jo said; Anyway the article basically stated what was happening with the pictures, but with just enough sarcasm that it made M look AWFUL -- kind of like the most bizarre cult in the world.
I'd love to see that feature Joe. Any idea how we could get hold of a copy?
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Date: Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 18:26:00 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email: joger02@aol.com
To: d@vid
Subject: Re: Publicity
Message:
Jo said; Anyway the article basically stated what was happening with the pictures, but with just enough sarcasm that it made M look AWFUL -- kind of like the most bizarre cult in the world.
I'd love to see that feature Joe. Any idea how we could get hold of a copy?
You can get back issues of Life Magazine from the company. I can look on a newsstand and let you know how to reach them. It came out in either May or June, 1979. Do you want me to check for you?
JW
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Date: Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 19:09:35 (EST)
Poster: John Cavad
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: Publicity
Message:
This is great conversation.. Thanks. But does anyone know whatever happened to the crazy guy, Joe the Press Secretary...the guy with 25 pounds of gold over his body.?
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Date: Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 19:09:57 (EST)
Poster: John Cavad
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: Publicity
Message:
This is great conversation.. Thanks. But does anyone know whatever happened to the crazy guy, Joe the Press Secretary...the guy with 25 pounds of gold over his body.?
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Date: Sat, Dec 20, 1997 at 20:53:07 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: John Cavad
Subject: Re: Publicity
Message:
This is great conversation.. Thanks. But does anyone know whatever happened to the crazy guy, Joe the Press Secretary...the guy with 25 pounds of gold over his body.?
Are you talking about Joe Anctil?
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Date: Mon, Dec 22, 1997 at 13:09:48 (EST)
Poster: John Cavad
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: Publicity
Message:
This is great conversation.. Thanks. But does anyone know whatever happened to the crazy guy, Joe the Press Secretary...the guy with 25 pounds of gold over his body.?
Are you talking about Joe Anctil?
Yes, I believe that was his full name. Did he die of aids? I don't know. Does anyone?
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Date: Mon, Dec 22, 1997 at 19:59:15 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: John Cavad
Subject: Re: Publicity
Message:
This is great conversation.. Thanks. But does anyone know whatever happened to the crazy guy, Joe the Press Secretary...the guy with 25 pounds of gold over his body.?
Are you talking about Joe Anctil?
Yes, I believe that was his full name. Did he die of aids? I don't know. Does anyone?
Got me. But I have a LOT of Joe Anctil stories that are pretty outrageous. Actually, Joe could be sort of refreshing. He was very irreverent and didn't follow any of the rules. He just acted like they didn't apply to him, like his personal relationship with Maharaji, whatever that was, gave him dispensation. He also took full advantage of the cult organization for himself and acted like he was just so committed. I hope he didn't die, but I don't know what happened to him. Last time I saw him, I think, was 1982.
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Date: Mon, Dec 22, 1997 at 23:03:06 (EST)
Poster: John Cavad
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: Publicity
Message:
This is great conversation.. Thanks. But does anyone know whatever happened to the crazy guy, Joe the Press Secretary...the guy with 25 pounds of gold over his body.?
Are you talking about Joe Anctil?
Yes, I believe that was his full name. Did he die of aids? I don't know. Does anyone?
Got me. But I have a LOT of Joe Anctil stories that are pretty outrageous. Actually, Joe could be sort of refreshing. He was very irreverent and didn't follow any of the rules. He just acted like they didn't apply to him, like his personal relationship with Maharaji, whatever that was, gave him dispensation. He also took full advantage of the cult organization for himself and acted like he was just so committed. I hope he didn't die, but I don't know what happened to him. Last time I saw him, I think, was 1982.
I'm all ears....
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Date: Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 16:39:20 (EST)
Poster: John K.
Email:
To: Everyone
Subject: Sex
Message:
So what's up with sex?
Is it still a taboo subject like it was 20 years ago?
Is celibacy still encouraged?
It really annoys me, in retrospect, that I just went along with the celibacy program without seeking some kind of clarification or explanation from M.
Sex is really one of the great experiences in life, and I think it's interesting that M had absolutely nothing to say about it.
But then maybe he has recently?
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Date: Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 16:49:49 (EST)
Poster: CD
Email:
To: John K.
Subject: Re: Sex
Message:
Yes, he has said that it is good to get a date.
He also discussed Michael Jackson's dance technique.
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Date: Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 17:20:06 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: CD
Subject: Re: Sex
Message:
Yes, he has said that it is good to get a date.
He also discussed Michael Jackson's dance technique.
Chris, pardon me, but aren't these two things non-sequitors? I guess I can see how the "good to get a date" thing might possibly have some (although not much) bearing on John's question, but Michael Jackson's dance technique??
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Date: Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 17:20:19 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: CD
Subject: Re: Sex
Message:
Yes, he has said that it is good to get a date.
He also discussed Michael Jackson's dance technique.
Chris, pardon me, but aren't these two things non-sequitors? I guess I can see how the "good to get a date" thing might possibly have some (although not much) bearing on John's question, but Michael Jackson's dance technique??
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Date: Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 17:29:57 (EST)
Poster: John K.
Email:
To: Katie
Subject: Re: Sex
Message:
He discussed MJ's dancing as having something to do with sex?
Now that is interesting, hmmmm...maybe I'll have another look at Thriller.
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Date: Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 17:45:00 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email: joger02@aol.com
To: John K.
Subject: Re: Sex
Message:
So what's up with sex?
Is it still a taboo subject like it was 20 years ago?
Is celibacy still encouraged?
It really annoys me, in retrospect, that I just went along with the celibacy program without seeking some kind of clarification or explanation from M.
Sex is really one of the great experiences in life, and I think it's interesting that M had absolutely nothing to say about it.
But then maybe he has recently?
God, I know what you men......9 years of celibacy, oy vey! I don't think M said much about sex, except that if you lived in the ashram, or were a mahatma or an initiator, you took a vow of celibacy (along with one for poverty and obedience, as you probably know).
I recall in one community I lived in (San Antonio) the ashram was huge. I think it had over 100 people in it most of the time. Anyhow, I remember someone who was a certified massage instructor organized a massage class and a bunch of the ashram premies were learning how to do therapeutic massage. I remember Bill Patterson, Billy Salmansohn (I wonder whatever happened to him) got in touch with PAM to see if M would think it would be okay for the brothers to massage the sisters and vice versa. Response: NO WAY JOSE! M's agya was that only same-sex massage arrangements were allowed! [Funny how the possibility that some of us were gay never apparently came into the discussion.] Anyhow, they explained that M was VERY old fashioned when it came to sex, and that he saw it as a strong distraction from the path of satsang, service and meditation. I know some ashram premies had sex anyway and then got kicked out, but, in my experience, they were the exceptions. The vast majority obeyed his agya and remained celibate. But, you're right, he never talked about it. I know there are a lot of ex-premies from that period who feel the forfeiture of their sex lives, and their relationship-lives, for years in the name of following a charlatan is one of their biggest regrets. I know it is one of mine.
I do remember M complaining that the householder premies were having too many kids (he called it a population explosion) and then he started banning kids from programs. I also know that a number of the mahatmas got into sex with the housemothers and others and, apparently, M has gotten into sex both inside and outside of marriage, although, as I mentioned elsewhere, I have never been able to picture Maharaji having sex, especially with tall, blonde, women.
Did you live in the ashram in DC? If so, when was that? Was I there at the time? Mid-1979 when the ashrams were in Bethesda? On Brixton and that other street I don't recall?
JW
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Date: Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 17:48:56 (EST)
Poster: JW -- Freudian Correction
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: Sex
Message:
I know what you MEAN, not MEN, although Freud would probably have something to say about that.
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Date: Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 17:55:51 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: JW -- Freudian Correction
Subject: Re: Sex
Message:
I know what you MEAN, not MEN, although Freud would probably have something to say about that.
I know you wouldn't be able to resist this topic, JW, although probably no one else will either. I think John Kay lived in the ashram in Miami, too, so you might know him from there. Am I right, John?
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Date: Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 18:41:08 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: Katie
Subject: Re: Sex
Message:
I know you wouldn't be able to resist this topic, JW, although probably no one else will either.I KNOW; I'm just glad I got to it first.
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Date: Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 19:20:02 (EST)
Poster: John Cavad
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: Sex
Message:
I give my heart-felt condolences to all those fine men that abstained from sex for years. I, on the other hand, slept with many a sister in those crazy & wild 70's. The sisters were easy to woo for all-American premie guys like me. Many of them were so flighty that it only took a little encouragement to get them into bed. (Hey, I was a kid!) They were absolutely divine, and I send my thanks and love to all of them! The only time I spent in the ashram was when I was trying to woo those sexy sisters that loved to flirt with every guy in town. Believe me, though I wouldn't kiss and tell, many were not celibate.
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Date: Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 20:13:54 (EST)
Poster: Sir David
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: John Cavad
Subject: Re: Sex
Message:
I heartilly agree with your sentiments on this Joe. I think Maharaji is one of the biggest hypocrites on the planet, making us go through all that celibacy crap with the ensuing guilt that went with it.
For this reason alone, my opinion of Maharaji is extremely low. I think the word I'd use to describe him would be an old Anglo-Saxon word with four letters.
It took me years to get his programming out of my head so that I could relax and have a sexual relationship without feeling guilty. Have any other ex-premies suffered with this guilt problem?
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Date: Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 22:49:09 (EST)
Poster: John K.
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: Sex
Message:
Joe: yeah in Bethesda on Tulsa Lane or as we called it Tulsidas Lane. You were the comm. coordinator? I think you came from Chicago and you had all these incredibly beautiful suits. You loaned me one when we were going to a festival in Atlantic City. You were not there that long as I remember.
I didn't see you in Miami, but then I was in a "top secret" project (ha, ha) and I was not allowed to talk to "community premies".
Why?
Uh, well, I don't really know, we were just too damn important I guess. Of course like the good mindless robot I was I just went along with the program and stayed in my little rat hole.
I just remembered something, and this is way off subject, but then it's my subject right? I was in this "secret project" when John Lennon was murdered, and this was right after his album came out and we were all listening to it all the time, and I think there was a program about to happen which we were going to and so we were all supposed to be "happy" because we were going to see M, and I was bummed because lennon was dead! So my service supervisor, who was a reincarnation of hitler, just an absolute ass hole, got pissed at me because I wasn't looking "happy". He was ridiculing the fact that I seemed to be mourning someone who was 'of the world'. and that's when I realized I could not possibly live my life around these people, and I believe about six months later I was gone.
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Date: Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 23:10:39 (EST)
Poster: Insomniac Sir David
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: John K.
Subject: Re: Sex
Message:
I remember that day that John Lennon was murdured, well. That evening I had to go to Ashram Applicants Satsang as I had applied to move back into the ashram again.
I was feeling pretty sad and in mourning over John, one of the Fab Four who I'd grown up with and always loved. I wondered if the other premies were feeling low because of the same reason but nobody mentioned John at all in their satsang. And then I was asked to give satsang and I just went on about how cruel this world can be and how sad it sometimes is when people die and I looked at all the premies and I could see in their eyes that they all knew who and what I was talking about. But nobody dare mention John's name. It was wierd.
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Date: Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 23:49:03 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Insomniac Sir David
Subject: Re: Sex
Message:
David, what time is it in Britain - where you are - anyway? Just looking out for you.
Regards from your fellow insomniac,
Katie (it's not even eleven o'clock here, though! I'll probably be up much later!)
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Date: Sat, Dec 20, 1997 at 07:27:26 (EST)
Poster: Sir David
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: Katie
Subject: Re: Sex
Message:
What time is it? Time to go to bed and dream about all those sisters who I didn't make it with.
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Date: Sat, Dec 20, 1997 at 17:55:54 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Sir David
Subject: Re: Sex
Message:
It took me years to get his programming out of my head so that I could relax and have a sexual relationship without feeling guilty. Have any other ex-premies suffered with this guilt problem?
Dear Sir David -
I have not experienced that guilt personally but I had two fairly long-term relationships with premie men in which guilt was definitely a problem (John K knows who both these guys are, I think).
I always felt that there was no real place for single premies in DLM - one should either live in the ashram or get married and be a householder. Having relationships which didn't lead to long-term commitments was definitely frowned upon. (I don't know what to say about the casual sex that some people on the forum and web site have brought up - guess that's neither here nor there. Anyway, I never experienced that when I was a premie.) I received knowledge with two close friends who both married the first premie guy that they "fell in love" with after recieving Knowledge. This was at around age 18 or 19. I think they felt compelled to get married, but needless to say, neither marriage lasted. I, on the other hand, never wanted to move into the ashram (I was too interested in boys - I was only 16 when I received Knowledge, after all!), but was afraid to get married as well. So I probably was the luckiest one of the three of us, although I did have a few problematical relationships with premie men.
My first relationship with a premie man was quite difficult. I think that we really loved each other but he felt that there was an big conflict between his devotion to Maharaji and his attraction to me. We ended up living together in a premie house and being an accepted couple in the community, but he still felt that I was distracting him from completely giving himself to Maharaji. He used to quote Sri Ramakrishna's diatribe about "women and gold" being the two things that kept men from realizing God (not sure of the exact quote). And he used to physically abuse me because he thought that I was "tempting" him away from Maharaji. We were engaged but I (thankfully) came to my senses and breaking the engagement. He moved into the ashram, which was probably a good place for him - and I'm sure it was awful for him when Maharaji closed the ashrams.
After this, I also had a serious relationship with an ex-ashram premie and I always felt like I was competing with Maharaji for his attention. I just hated it every time he would go out with one of his friends from the ashram, or go to a program. He would get all fired up about GMJ and knowledge, and agonize about whether he should go back to the ashram. This made me feel awful. I felt that he thought I was trying to take him away from GMJ or hinder his chances for attaining samadhi (or whatever). This always made me feel second best (at best) or worthless (at worst). Finally I ended up leaving Maharaji which of course broke off the relationship for real and for good.
One of the things I am trying to say here, David, is even though you may feel like you missed some chances for relationships, you might have made those women unhappy if you weren't really sure that was what you wanted. So maybe it is better than you didn't have those relationships after all. Of course, hindsight is always 20-20, as I'm sure you know. But I thought you might like to hear my side of it too.
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Date: Sat, Dec 20, 1997 at 20:48:35 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email: joger02@aol.com
To: John K.
Subject: Re: Sex
Message:
Joe: yeah in Bethesda on Tulsa Lane or as we called it Tulsidas Lane. You were the comm. coordinator? I think you came from Chicago and you had all these incredibly beautiful suits. You loaned me one when we were going to a festival in Atlantic City. You were not there that long as I remember.
I didn't see you in Miami, but then I was in a 'top secret' project (ha, ha) and I was not allowed to talk to 'community premies'.
Why?
Uh, well, I don't really know, we were just too damn important I guess. Of course like the good mindless robot I was I just went along with the program and stayed in my little rat hole.
I just remembered something, and this is way off subject, but then it's my subject right? I was in this 'secret project' when John Lennon was murdered, and this was right after his album came out and we were all listening to it all the time, and I think there was a program about to happen which we were going to and so we were all supposed to be 'happy' because we were going to see M, and I was bummed because lennon was dead! So my service supervisor, who was a reincarnation of hitler, just an absolute ass hole, got pissed at me because I wasn't looking 'happy'. He was ridiculing the fact that I seemed to be mourning someone who was 'of the world'. and that's when I realized I could not possibly live my life around these people, and I believe about six months later I was gone.
Tulsa Lane, that's right. Sorry, must be middle age, but I can't place a face on your name, but your name does sound familiar. I liked DC a lot. I liked the people there.
Yes, I was only community coordinator in DC from about May until about November, 1979. I had been in Chicago, correct, then at NHQ in Miami, then DC, then I got called to be part of "the secret project" too. I liked DC a lot and I didn't want to go back to Miami, because I had hated NHQ, but we took vows of obedience but did as we were told. I was only on the "secret project" for a few months (legal department) and because I asked a lot of questions about the illegality of a lot of the stuff that went on I got fired and then made Community Coordinator in Miami. GEEsz.
Beautiful suits? I think you may be thinking of Randy Prouty who was in DC almost the whole time I was there. He had truly beautiful designer clothes and I could never figure out how he was able to get them. Actually, when I was in Chicago, for part of the time I was a clothing salesperson at Carson, Pirie, Scott and I got a couple of nice suits cheap that way. I was ashram housefather there and I got all the brothers nice suits for darsahn at steep discounts because I worked there.
I also recall when John Lennon died. I had just been sent to San Francisco and after my horrific experience in Miami, I felt suicidal much of the time. I was community coordinator there, and there was nothing to do, so I recall sitting in the park wanting to off myself and crying a lot. I finally got a job and just tried to survive. Anyhow, when Lennon died, I always felt everyone just turned 40 that day. Youth was a thing of the past.
How did you leave. Did you just walk away?
JW
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Date: Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 16:14:20 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Everyone
Subject: Service?
Message:
Does anyone know what type of 'service' is encouraged nowadays? (When I read the list of videos that Mr. Ex posted below, I was struck by the one for aspirants which emphasized the importance of 'service' to the full 'Knowledge experience'.) When I was a premie, a lot of service consisted of propagation efforts. For example, we used to go out and put up posters, sell And It Is Divine, give out leaflets, help
at the DUO office, etc, etc. Also we were asked to tithe - to give 10% of our income - to DUO. Can't remember when that started and stopped, all I know
is I couldn't afford it after a while so I had to quit doing it.
Is satsang - telling people about video programs, showing videos in your home, and so forth, - counted as service now? Or does service consist mostly of donating money?
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Date: Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 18:50:28 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Katie
Subject: Re: Service?
Message:
Everybody still avoids doing service, I think. ;=)
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Date: Sat, Dec 20, 1997 at 05:08:54 (EST)
Poster: Mr Ex
Email:
To: Katie
Subject: Re: Service?
Message:
Does anyone know what type of 'service' is encouraged nowadays? (When I read the list of videos that Mr. Ex posted below, I was struck by the one for aspirants which emphasized the importance of 'service' to the full 'Knowledge experience'.) When I was a premie, a lot of service consisted of propagation efforts. For example, we used to go out and put up posters, sell And It Is Divine, give out leaflets, help
at the DUO office, etc, etc. Also we were asked to tithe - to give 10% of our income - to DUO. Can't remember when that started and stopped, all I know
is I couldn't afford it after a while so I had to quit doing it.
Is satsang - telling people about video programs, showing videos in your home, and so forth, - counted as service now? Or does service consist mostly of donating money?
About 2 years ago Mr PPR had video presentations about service at many
‘premie programs’.
Everybody could know how many tons of rice were cooked during events in India,
how much effort was necessary to build his stage, etc. How many people came.
The general idea, what I felt anyway when I think about it, is that it was showing how BIG the whole thing really was, how POOR some people really are (India, Nepal, Africa) and how lucky you are being able to help.
And how blissed out are those who participate (do ‘service’).
He never mentioned anything about budgets. These are only for meetings with the big shots.
Elan Vital officially encourages premies to help for events preparation and setup, and for local video events.
Then there are regular local meetings, sometimes with one of Mr PPR’s instructors, for premies who are already helping on a regular basis, and new people who expressed their wish to help.
During these meetings, people are explained how the local teams are organized, what the needs are, etc. in details.
They are reminded that financial support is necessary, how much is needed, what the local budgets are. Very technical and professional.
Then they are also reminded that there are also needs on the national and international level. That these are not connected to Mr PPR’s personal financial support. If they want to personally support Mr R, his mail address and account # is also available, and they can of course send ‘gifts’. Also help at the residence is mentioned.
Many people ‘help’ for events. I would say 40 to 50% of people coming to an event participate in one area or another.
The biggest one is ushering-security. I still can’t understand why ! Sorry, I’m wrong : it’s very clear. The general idea is that nobody is really able to be responsible for anything. That’s why you need so many people to care of everything nobody wants/is able to take care of. Granted that everything relies on Him.
Strange, very strange general feeling, where some premies are responsible for things they don’t understand. Funny. What usually happens is that BigM Himself plays some of his favorite games, changing everything at the last minute, so that everybody feels really helpless and call the Savior, and prostrates in front of his infinite wisdom. Ageless guru-disciple game.
Then you have these endless and countless ‘service’ meetings you have to participate in, and where all this group phenomenon takes place. You feel being part of something IMPORTANT going on. You are being taken care of. And you are so thankful that you want to participate more.
Then there are some people you don’t know who also attend these meetings.
If they like you, they might call you one day and invite you to some ‘special’ meeting for ‘premies who really want to help Maharaji’.
Then you’ll be involved in the non-official activities of Elan Vital Inc.
More details on these unofficial ... sorry I didn’t say anything.
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Date: Sat, Dec 20, 1997 at 07:04:59 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email:
To: Mr Ex
Subject: Re: Service?
Message:
Well this is another example for the record of your stinking Goebbels propaganda, Mr Ex.
Again, you state no hard facts to base your paranoia on. It's just your sick mind conjuring up notions of conspiracy and persecution. Why are you doing it? Is it because you feel that White American Aryan supremacy is being threatened?
By dwelling on negativity (real or imagined, whatever), you are refusing yourself the joy and bliss. Two things cannot occupy the same space at the same time.
But, really, I think you are just paranoid and sick, man.
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Date: Sat, Dec 20, 1997 at 10:09:57 (EST)
Poster: however you look at the power,
Email: bb
To: Mili
Subject: two things occupy the same space (Re: Service?)
Message:
Hi Mili,
I decided last night after posting some that I will
hopefully stay out of the fray and leave it for others.
So this is hopefully not in the war zone, but don't you think the bigger part is also somehow inside of us?
Putting aside who's body that power speaks the most out of,
it seems like a for sure that two things do occupy us.
or, they are separate like photons and atoms or some
working blend.
Do you have christmas with trees?
decorations and all that?
I wonder what type of holiday the future will bring
if maharaji successfully enters the historical
pantheon of gods.
mohammed has ramadan and at least one other,
not to mention going to mecca and walking around the
stone 7 times counterclockwise.
And walking around the pillar of sin 49 times and throwing pebbles at it.
got to go
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Date: Sat, Dec 20, 1997 at 13:29:12 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: however you look at the power,
Subject: Re: two things occupy the same space (Re: Service?)
Message:
Bill, I really find it difficult to make sense out of your twists and turns, but I think I get a sense of your contempt for what you consider 'other' than what you consider the concensus. There IS NO concensus. It's all in your head. But your head is not where it's at.
The story of Jesus is fascinating. The story of Mohammad is fascinating. The story of Buddha is fascinating. The story of Nanak and the ten Sikh gurus is fascinating. (By the way, did you know that Kabir was Nanak's guru?) Some amazing things have happened in history, and they are STILL happening.
There is no justification for bigotry, xenophobia and contempt.
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Date: Sat, Dec 20, 1997 at 14:14:20 (EST)
Poster: CD
Email:
To: Mr Ex
Subject: Re: Service?
Message:
I remeber the "What Price Happiness" video from a couple years back.
An interesting presentation.
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Date: Sat, Dec 20, 1997 at 14:15:47 (EST)
Poster: thousands
Email: bbMy
To: Mili
Subject: and thousands (Re: Service?)
Message:
My favorite Kabir is the line;
Kabir says: Every instant that the sun is risen,
if I stand in the temple, or on a balcony,
in the hot fields, or in a walled garden,
my own lord is making love with me.
this is where I suspect we share the same orientation.
Now I think that is my friend, the concious power,
and its' location is that breath and that the love kabir
is referring to is the motion of the breath.
That is enough for a view on god.
Where you and I at this point separate is you continue
to see maharaji as the one inside and I am finally
convinced by his own words that he is not.
Annie feels we have been self deluded because we are
fearful and don't want to think for ourselves. ouch.
I don't understand why he decided to go further in that
direction when there is no need to portray that.
Of course the other problem is that since I lived my life
to the hilt in that view, I took thousands of actions in vain and spoke thousands of sentences on behalf of
maharajis' being the superiour power in person.
If you feel he is the lord then of course you would feel that I have no problem except to realign with my previous view, but I am not sure you are referring to me or someone
elses' post when you mention 'bigotry' and whatever
'xenophobia' means.
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Date: Sat, Dec 20, 1997 at 22:49:24 (EST)
Poster: op
Email:
To: Katie
Subject: Re: Service?
Message:
Dear Katie:
I think you really wanted to know about service here, not discuss Kabir.
When I saw Mr. Ex's post discussing M's information sessions, I thought: Oh, he's going to mention...
but he didn't.
At any rate, during those sessions, M gave a long list of areas in which people could help, everything from architects to elbowgreasers to ... In other words, anything you do in that consciousness that helps out with events, in any way shape or form is service. That includes watering plants at your local hall, lending someone a video as an introduction, ushering at a national event, sweeping the garage where event materials will be stored, printing a list of upcoming events, calling to invite people to a local staff meeting. Monetary donations are included, but are not touted as THE main way to do service.
It is true that for a lot of people who don't have time to do other stuff, it is suggested that they can help by supporting the events.
A couple of other things to take issue with Mr Ex, so maybe I'll post an answer to his, but for the moment:
My experience with service has always been that it is the essence of zen - doing an action with no plans for reward, no attachment to the outcome, and with beginner's consciousness - each time you do something, it is as if the first time. We learn from our mistakes and from our previous successes, but if I have that freshness each time I come into an action, I am completely conscious, aware, and loving the action.
In recent speeches, M has mentioned that service should be joyful, that people should fully enjoy what they're doing, not get burned out. He emphasizes getting enough rest, planning well, choosing the right service for you. I've seen people sent home for letting themselves get burned out.
It's quite true that a huge percentage of people help to prepare an event with M, in comparison to other conferences (not quite half, though, more like 1/4). Perhaps that's because people enjoy doing it so much that as many as possible are given the opportunity to do so. There are always droves of people who show up at the event doors begging for service (often too late to really do much, but a lot of them get to be go-fors, help with last-minute clean-ups, etc.).
I do agree that there is still a lot of red tape, unfortunately, and favoritism among those who have been around for a while. However, there aren't deadbeats. If someone doesn't feel a sense of responsibility for her/his service, that person somehow disappears the next time around. And there is room for 'advancement' - people who are willing to take on responsibility do get it.
I hope this answers the question. If not, let me know.
Best regards and all that - even a hug...
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Date: Sat, Dec 20, 1997 at 23:01:25 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: op
Subject: Re: Service?
Message:
Dear Katie:
I think you really wanted to know about service here, not discuss Kabir.
When I saw Mr. Ex's post discussing M's information sessions, I thought: Oh, he's going to mention...
but he didn't.
At any rate, during those sessions, M gave a long list of areas in which people could help, everything from architects to elbowgreasers to ... In other words, anything you do in that consciousness that helps out with events, in any way shape or form is service. That includes watering plants at your local hall, lending someone a video as an introduction, ushering at a national event, sweeping the garage where event materials will be stored, printing a list of upcoming events, calling to invite people to a local staff meeting. Monetary donations are included, but are not touted as THE main way to do service.
It is true that for a lot of people who don't have time to do other stuff, it is suggested that they can help by supporting the events.
A couple of other things to take issue with Mr Ex, so maybe I'll post an answer to his, but for the moment:
My experience with service has always been that it is the essence of zen - doing an action with no plans for reward, no attachment to the outcome, and with beginner's consciousness - each time you do something, it is as if the first time. We learn from our mistakes and from our previous successes, but if I have that freshness each time I come into an action, I am completely conscious, aware, and loving the action.
In recent speeches, M has mentioned that service should be joyful, that people should fully enjoy what they're doing, not get burned out. He emphasizes getting enough rest, planning well, choosing the right service for you. I've seen people sent home for letting themselves get burned out.
It's quite true that a huge percentage of people help to prepare an event with M, in comparison to other conferences (not quite half, though, more like 1/4). Perhaps that's because people enjoy doing it so much that as many as possible are given the opportunity to do so. There are always droves of people who show up at the event doors begging for service (often too late to really do much, but a lot of them get to be go-fors, help with last-minute clean-ups, etc.).
I do agree that there is still a lot of red tape, unfortunately, and favoritism among those who have been around for a while. However, there aren't deadbeats. If someone doesn't feel a sense of responsibility for her/his service, that person somehow disappears the next time around. And there is room for 'advancement' - people who are willing to take on responsibility do get it.
I hope this answers the question. If not, let me know.
Best regards and all that - even a hug...
Thank you very much, op. You did answer my question.
Although I did enjoy reading Mili's, Mr. Ex's, Bill's and Chris's posts as well...
Regards (and thanks much) from Katie
P.S. to Milivoj - I think Bill likes you and is searching for some common ground here. Although one can never be sure, with Bill... But that's the feeling I get.
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Date: Sat, Dec 20, 1997 at 23:28:45 (EST)
Poster: op
Email:
To: Mr Ex
Subject: Re: Service?
Message:
A couple of points
The general idea, what I felt anyway when I think about it, is that it was showing how BIG the whole thing really was, how POOR some people really are (India, Nepal, Africa) and how lucky you are being able to help.
And how blissed out are those who participate (do Œservice¹).
He never mentioned anything about budgets.
Ehem. He never mentioned budgets in India or in the African nations. I felt that was rather sensitive of him, since there are a lot of people there who can't participate by giving a lot of money.
In the USA, he not only did mention budgets, but at least at two events, he gave very detailed statistics of how the money was spent over quite a number of years.
BTW, I never got the feeling that we were being told to look down at these POOR people. You know, of course, that there are quite a few videos with the Africans, the Indians. I think most Westerners feel a great deal of respect for the incredible love that flows in both directions with those premies. Too bad these prejudices are so ingrained.
During these meetings, people are explained how the local teams are organized, what the needs are, etc. in details.
They are reminded that financial support is necessary, how much is needed, what the local budgets are. Very technical and professional.
Not always so technical or professional. You make it sound as though every staff meeting is a fund raiser. Maybe your community was like that, but generally it is accepted that this is not a 'group' or an 'organization' running things, and each city or area has a lot of its own ways of doing things.
What is relatively standardized (and I don't always agree with, and hope that it will change) is the information on the schedule, the method of collecting donations, and the way emcees introduce the videos.
I do agree that taking some of the personality out, trying to create a completely neutral environment, often makes things rather sterile and seemingly lifeless when people walk in. One of the things that most attracted me, aside from M himself, was the fact that we WERE a very ecclectic bunch, and that all the personalities I met were not stifled, but allowed to grow in their own particular direction.
I know several on this panel will disagree with me on that - what with ashram dictates, etc. But I still run into the street musicians, the techno freaks, the vegans and the meat-eaters, the hippies and the punks. They are all invited to share in the experience AND they are all invited to participate. (if they want to...)
Many people Œhelp¹ for events. I would say 40 to 50% of people coming to an event participate in one area or another.
The biggest one is ushering-security. I still can¹t understand why ! Sorry, I¹m wrong : it¹s very clear. The general idea is that nobody is really able to be responsible for anything. That¹s why you need so many people to care of everything nobody wants/is able to take care of. Granted that everything relies on Him.
I mentioned something about this below. A lot of ushers (not quite that number on security), partly to give a lot of people an opportunity. The ushers are not the grouches some of you might remember, who hold you back from going to a closer seat or sneer at you for not dressing properly. The ushers are meant to be a relatively invisible group, ready to help if needed and also to enforce a few rules (most laid down by the venue itself - e.g., no eating or drinking - but if you're hypoglycemic, there will be exceptions).
Strange, very strange general feeling, where some premies are responsible for things they don¹t understand.
Again, I disagree. If you don't understand why you're doing it, you can't do it properly. There is a huge amount of information for everyone on every aspect of what's done in the hall.
What usually happens is that BigM Himself plays some of his favorite games, changing everything at the last minute, so that everybody feels really helpless and call the Savior, and prostrates in front of his infinite wisdom. Ageless guru-disciple game.
You mean like deciding to show a different video? That has happened. Or like deciding to skip one of the songs that had been rehearsed?
When was the last time you took part in a large event? You must know that everything is planned down to the last minute. Granted there are one or two things that can change - such as in Miami in July, where M waited to go on stage so that everyone could be seated, since there was an overflow crowd. But I can't believe that you've been close to M on these occasions if you don't know how pleased he's been that events finally take place WITHOUT all the glitches.
You feel being part of something IMPORTANT going on. You are being taken care of. And you are so thankful that you want to participate more.
Yes, some of us feel that what he's doing is important. And some of us even feel grateful to be able to participate.
Then there are some people you don¹t know who also attend these meetings. If they like you, they might call you one day and invite you to some Œspecial¹ meeting for Œpremies who really want to help Maharaji¹.
First, you make it sound like it's all meetings. Nonsense. A lot of this takes place on the phone, at local events, by email. And second, what's wrong with this? You do a good job, you show that you're interested and trustworthy. In any worldly situation, you're pleased as punch that the supervisor noticed you and you get a 'promotion'.
I wouldn't call these promotions, but there are definitely areas where people have to take more responsibility. Who should to this - those who arrive half an hour before the event begins and bang at the door begging for service? Or those who make an effort to be in touch ahead of time, can organize themselves, make deadlines stick and still enjoy the experience?
Then you¹ll be involved in the non-official activities of Elan Vital Inc. More details on these unofficial ... sorry I didn¹t say anything.
Is there anything TO say??? Why do you suddenly imply that you, the tell-all, the revealer of all secrets, have something to hide?
chiao
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Date: Sun, Dec 21, 1997 at 00:36:04 (EST)
Poster: op
Email:
To: Katie
Subject: Re: Service?
Message:
Dear Katie:
I posted a reply to your question about service about three hours ago, along with one to Mr Ex - but neither have shown up.
Right now I just don't have the energy to rewrite it. Maybe the posts will show up tomorrow, or maybe by then I'll have more energy.
Tell Brian that I tried to answer his posts, too - about four or five posts I wrote today just didn't appear.
greetings to all
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Date: Sun, Dec 21, 1997 at 01:54:00 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email:
To: op
Subject: Re: Service?
Message:
Dear Katie:
I posted a reply to your question about service about three hours ago, along with one to Mr Ex - but neither have shown up.
Right now I just don't have the energy to rewrite it. Maybe the posts will show up tomorrow, or maybe by then I'll have more energy.
Tell Brian that I tried to answer his posts, too - about four or five posts I wrote today just didn't appear.
greetings to all
Dear op - I can see your replies, or what I think are the replies you are talking about, so perhaps the fault is with your ISP. (Who knows?) A post that you made in reply to Brian has also appeared, and I am going to assume that he can see it also.
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Date: Sun, Dec 21, 1997 at 09:15:31 (EST)
Poster: op
Email:
To: Katie
Subject: Re: Service?
Message:
>
Dear op - I can see your replies, or what I think are the replies you
are talking about, so perhaps the fault is with your ISP. (Who knows?) A post that you made in reply to Brian has also appeared, and I am going to assume that he can see it also.
Yup. It just somehow took several hours for these to get posted. Others that I put up last night did get on right away - that's why I was confused.
At any rate, hope you had a good night...and a good morning!
Thanks
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Date: Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 14:47:59 (EST)
Poster: John Cavad
Email:
To: Everyone
Subject: He thinks he's God?
Message:
He thinks (or once thought) he's God? He couldn't possibly help himself. As a young child, thousands worshiped him. Look at the incredible amount of power he wielded in the 70's alone. Look at the empire and wealth he attained in such a short time. Historically, so few of us ever reach such a towering position, spiritual & secular status, material and eclectic goals, before the age of 18, no less. You'd think you were God, too. Then again, people like Ted Turner & Bill Gates think they're God. (I know, I've had the plesure of meeting both of them.) You can't blame them either. They're extraordinary people who possess extraordinary talents that so few humans actualize.
So, someone tell me, has M been doubting himself as truly being a "God" in the past ten years?
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Date: Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 15:50:50 (EST)
Poster: Brian
Email:
To: John Cavad
Subject: Re: He thinks he's God?
Message:
So, someone tell me, has M been doubting himself as truly being a 'God' in the past ten years?
I don't see how he possible COULD doubt, what with so many premies queuing up to drool on his socks. All that footsy stuff is pretty heady stuff. There's nothing like being darshed-on to sway the simple-minded.
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Date: Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 18:44:42 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email: joger02@aol.co,
To: Brian
Subject: Re: He thinks he's God?
Message:
So, someone tell me, has M been doubting himself as truly being a 'God' in the past ten years?
I don't see how he possible COULD doubt, what with so many premies queuing up to drool on his socks. All that footsy stuff is pretty heady stuff. There's nothing like being darshed-on to sway the simple-minded.
You may be right, but I think he DOES doubt it from time to time, especially when things aren't going well. Then, I think he NEEDS things like festivals and darshan more for himself than for the premies. He needs a big ego boost that only swooning and feet-kissing will provide.
I think he has also ordered grandiose material things to prove to himself that he is deserving of such things during such periods.
The Guru Papers has a good analysis of this behavior among gurus that fits M to a T.
JW
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Date: Sat, Dec 20, 1997 at 19:38:08 (EST)
Poster: John Cavad
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: He thinks he's God?
Message:
What and where are the "Guru Papers"? Thanks.
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Date: Sat, Dec 20, 1997 at 19:51:14 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: John Cavad
Subject: Re: He thinks he's God?
Message:
What and where are the 'Guru Papers'? Thanks.
It is a book by Joel Kramer and Diana Alstad. (A very good book, I think, although I don't agree with everything in it.) They analyse authoritarianism both in the guru disciple relationship (Part 1) and society in general (Part II). Amazon.com has it if you can't find it elsewhere.
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Date: Sat, Dec 20, 1997 at 20:31:12 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email: joger02@aol.com
To: John Cavad
Subject: Re: He thinks he's God?
Message:
What and where are the 'Guru Papers'? Thanks.
Katie's right, the book does cover more than just the typical guru-trip. It also goes into authoritarian power in general.
It's called "The Guru Papers, Masks of Authoritarian Power" The authors are Joel Kramer and Diana Alstad
It's published by Frog, Ltd. and distributed by North Atlantic Books in Berkeley, California. The ISBN number is:
1-883319-00-5. I HIGHLY recommend the book.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 18, 1997 at 22:34:34 (EST)
Poster: Nigel
Email: Nlonghurst@aol.co.uk
To: Everyone
Subject: Lord of the Unicorns
Message:
This forum could do with a theme song. How about 'We're going to hang out our washing on the darshan line, if the darshan line's still there.'
If the reference has lost something in crossing the Atlantic I should perhaps mention a popular song sung by British troops during WW2 that went: 'We're going to hang out our washing on the Siegfried Line, if the Siegfried Line's still there.'
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Date: Thurs, Dec 18, 1997 at 22:35:05 (EST)
Poster: Nigel
Email: Nlonghurst@aol.co.uk
To: Everyone
Subject: Lord of the Unicorns
Message:
This forum could do with a theme song. How about 'We're going to hang out our washing on the darshan line, if the darshan line's still there.'
If the reference has lost something in crossing the Atlantic I should perhaps mention a popular song sung by British troops during WW2 that went: 'We're going to hang out our washing on the Siegfried Line, if the Siegfried Line's still there.'
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Date: Thurs, Dec 18, 1997 at 22:35:53 (EST)
Poster: Nigel
Email: Nlonghurst@aol.co.uk
To: Everyone
Subject: Lord of the Unicorns
Message:
This forum could do with a theme song. How about 'We're going to hang out our washing on the darshan line, if the darshan line's still there.'
If the reference has lost something in crossing the Atlantic I should perhaps mention a popular song sung by British troops during WW2 that went: 'We're going to hang out our washing on the Siegfried Line, if the Siegfried Line's still there.'
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Date: Thurs, Dec 18, 1997 at 22:36:32 (EST)
Poster: Nigel
Email: Nlonghurst@aol.co.uk
To: Everyone
Subject: Lord of the Unicorns
Message:
This forum could do with a theme song. How about 'We're going to hang out our washing on the darshan line, if the darshan line's still there.'
If the reference has lost something in crossing the Atlantic I should perhaps mention a popular song sung by British troops during WW2 that went: 'We're going to hang out our washing on the Siegfried Line, if the Siegfried Line's still there.'
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Date: Thurs, Dec 18, 1997 at 22:36:57 (EST)
Poster: Nigel
Email: Nlonghurst@aol.co.uk
To: Everyone
Subject: Lord of the Unicorns
Message:
This forum could do with a theme song. How about 'We're going to hang out our washing on the darshan line, if the darshan line's still there.'
If the reference has lost something in crossing the Atlantic I should perhaps mention a popular song sung by British troops during WW2 that went: 'We're going to hang out our washing on the Siegfried Line, if the Siegfried Line's still there.'
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Date: Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 04:41:48 (EST)
Poster: Mr Ex
Email:
To: Nigel
Subject: Re: Lord of the Unicorns
Message:
This forum could do with a theme song. How about 'We're going to hang out our washing on the darshan line, if the darshan line's still there.'
If the reference has lost something in crossing the Atlantic I should perhaps mention a popular song sung by British troops during WW2 that went: 'We're going to hang out our washing on the Siegfried Line, if the Siegfried Line's still there.'
Hanging your washing on the darshan line is definitely the issue !
You know what : I had one spare hour a few days ago, and I went
to a ‘video event’.
Guess which video was ‘screened’ : Taiwan September 1997.
Guess what Mr PPR did on that day ?
He gave darshan in Taiwan (Kaoshiung).
To whom ?
It was of course a ‘non-issue’ for aspirants, because they were not present (yet).
What did the Lord of the Unicorn (I love that one) say ?
(I borrowed a copy of that tape, and I’ll make a transcript of the most interesting parts _ when I’ll have some spare time.)
He said something like :
« There are 2 most sacred things in ‘knowledge’. One is the receiving of the techniques. Second is when you pay respect to the Master. Its a private experience between you and your master ».
He says of course that you don’t ‘have to’ go to darshan, etc
He is definitely in the ‘devotion mood’ these days.
Big issue and challenge for his PR staff. Mrs Ross Sutton, are you going to resign ?
He is very likely having a conference (or going to) these days with the big shots of EV (like he does each year after his birthday).
How to give darshan in the West must be one of his topics.
Are there some other places where he recently gave darshan (beside India, Australia and Taiwan)?
Shall I torture my favorite premie enemies to finally know the truth ?
Please OP, be kind with them and give us all details ! We’ll know anyway, one day or another.
Are you premies ashamed of telling when and where you can go kiss his feet ?
How blissful it is to prostrate in front of BigM, smell his perfume, look into his beautiful black eyes, even tell him something (I did sometimes), wowwwwwwww !
I know it’s a private issue.
I don’t tell everybody where and when I kiss my spouse.
When you marry someone, you know (and obviously you like) what you do in private with your spouse. You have learned about it when you were young, etc
When you go into that relationship with your guru, I think you should be aware of what that relationship involves.
It is definitely an issue for newcomers and aspirants.
Sorry to be very crude.
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Date: Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 14:28:15 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: Mili@cheerful.com
To: Nigel
Subject: Re: Lord of the Unicorns
Message:
This forum could do with a theme song. How about 'We're going to hang out our washing on the darshan line, if the darshan line's still there.'
If the reference has lost something in crossing the Atlantic I should perhaps mention a popular song sung by British troops during WW2 that went: 'We're going to hang out our washing on the Siegfried Line, if the Siegfried Line's still there.'
How about having 'When the Saints Go Marching In' as the theme song?
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Date: Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 17:17:37 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: Mili@cheerful.com
To: Nigel
Subject: Re: Lord of the Unicorns
Message:
Raga Hansadwhani or Shivkumar Sharma on the Santoor would be nice.
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Date: Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 17:23:18 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Nigel
Subject: Re: Lord of the Unicorns
Message:
How about 'Get Back' from the Beatles 'Let it Be' album?
"Get back, get back,
Get back to where you once belonged..."
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Date: Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 17:29:43 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Nigel
Subject: Re: Lord of the Unicorns
Message:
The Rolling Stones have some pretty deep songs, but they're underrated. Check this out:
'You gotta move, you gotta move
You gotta move, chile, you gotta move.
Coz when the Lord comes,
Git ready, you gotta move.
You may be high, you may be low
you may be high, chile, you may be low
But when the Lord comes, get ready,
You gotta move.
You may be rich, you may be poor
you may be rich, chile, you may be poor
But when the Lord comes, get ready,
you gotta move.
you see that woman, who walks the street,
See that policeman, up on his beat,
But when the Lord comes, get ready,
You gotta move.'
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Date: Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 17:29:47 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Mili
Subject: Re: Lord of the Unicorns
Message:
This forum could do with a theme song. How about 'We're going to hang out our washing on the darshan line, if the darshan line's still there.'
If the reference has lost something in crossing the Atlantic I should perhaps mention a popular song sung by British troops during WW2 that went: 'We're going to hang out our washing on the Siegfried Line, if the Siegfried Line's still there.'
How about having 'When the Saints Go Marching In' as the theme song?
I vote for "Father Christmas" by the Kinks (for all you Xmas fans out there), "Come In From the Cold" by Joni Mitchell (second verse), "Rock and Roll" by Lou Reed, "Brother's Keeper" by the Neville Brothers, "Riding with the King" by John Hiatt, or my favorite (but I know nobody else likes it) "Friend of the Devil" by the Dead.
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Date: Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 17:31:34 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Mili
Subject: Re: Lord of the Unicorns
Message:
How about "Beast of Burden"? I forgot that one in my list above.
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Date: Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 17:36:43 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Katie
Subject: Re: Lord of the Unicorns
Message:
Hey Katie, I really loved that song by the Dead (it's on the American Beauty album) - the words go like this:
There is a road,
No simple highway
Between the dawn and dusk of the day (?)
And if you go,
Nobody can follow,
That road is for
Your steps alone
...
Let it be known
There is a fountain
That was not made
By the hands of man.
Did I get some of that right?
- Mili
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Date: Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 17:37:07 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Mili
Subject: Re: Lord of the Unicorns
Message:
How about "Chain of Fools" by Miss Aretha Franklin?
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Date: Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 17:41:06 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Katie
Subject: Re: Lord of the Unicorns
Message:
Nah. But the music is nice, though. This one is better:
'Wild, wild horses, couldn't drag me away...'
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Date: Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 17:43:36 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Mili
Subject: Re: Lord of the Unicorns
Message:
Hey Katie, I really loved that song by the Dead (it's on the American Beauty album) - the words go like this:
There is a road,
No simple highway
Between the dawn and dusk of the day (?)
And if you go,
Nobody can follow,
That road is for
Your steps alone
...
Let it be known
There is a fountain
That was not made
By the hands of man.
Did I get some of that right?
- Mili
Mili - That is a beautiful song called "Ripple". (I once heard a DJ call it "a cool song for a hot day". You got almost all of the words right. I think this is the rest of it:
You who choose to lead must follow
And if you walk, you walk alone
If you should stand, then who's to guide you
If I knew the way, I would take you home.
It's a hand-me-down.
The thoughts are broken
Perhaps they're better left unsung
I don't know, don't really care,
Let there be songs, songs to fill the air.
(this is the chorus)
Ripple in still water
Where there is no pebble tossed
Nor wind to blow.
P.S. Hope we don't get in trouble for getting off topic here!
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Date: Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 17:45:25 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Katie
Subject: Re: Lord of the Unicorns
Message:
How about 'Chain of Fools' by Miss Aretha Franklin?
That's more like a soundtrack for the Ex-premie site.
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Date: Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 17:47:54 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Mili
Subject: Re: Lord of the Unicorns
Message:
How about 'Chain of Fools' by Miss Aretha Franklin?
That's more like a soundtrack for the Ex-premie site.
Actually, it was kind of an anthem for some of the people who fought in Viet Nam. Have you heard it? You could probably relate to some of that. Another good song of hers is "Think"!
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Date: Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 17:49:24 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Katie
Subject: Re: Lord of the Unicorns
Message:
Hey Katie, I really loved that song by the Dead (it's on the American Beauty album) - the words go like this:
There is a road,
No simple highway
Between the dawn and dusk of the day (?)
And if you go,
Nobody can follow,
That road is for
Your steps alone
...
Let it be known
There is a fountain
That was not made
By the hands of man.
Did I get some of that right?
- Mili
Mili - That is a beautiful song called 'Ripple'. (I once heard a DJ call it 'a cool song for a hot day'. You got almost all of the words right. I think this is the rest of it:
You who choose to lead must follow
And if you walk, you walk alone
If you should stand, then who's to guide you
If I knew the way, I would take you home.
It's a hand-me-down.
The thoughts are broken
Perhaps they're better left unsung
I don't know, don't really care,
Let there be songs, songs to fill the air.
(this is the chorus)
Ripple in still water
Where there is no pebble tossed
Nor wind to blow.
P.S. Hope we don't get in trouble for getting off topic here!
Katie,
I'd love to get off-topic with you, anytime.
- Mili
P.S. Screw this 'topic'
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Date: Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 17:52:51 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Mili
Subject: Re: Lord of the Unicorns
Message:
Nah. But the music is nice, though. This one is better:
'Wild, wild horses, couldn't drag me away...'
Mili - I really like 'Beast of Burden' and think it's quite appropriate, but how about
"I've got to walk, before they make me run."
I'm not sure the Stones are the best band to get spiritual lyrics from, though...
Same album, different song.
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Date: Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 17:53:10 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Katie
Subject: Re: Lord of the Unicorns
Message:
I don't know much of Aretha's stuff. But, I really like gospel music (regardless of any connotations).
Edwin Hawkins Singers 'Oh, Happy Day' is one of my favorites!
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Date: Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 17:59:24 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Katie
Subject: Re: Lord of the Unicorns
Message:
The Stones are more spiritual than most people realize, probably because they've felt what real life is like more than most poeple (the trials and tribulations).
There is a song on 'Exile on Main Street' where Jagger sings:
'I don't want to talk, talk about Jesus,
I just want to see His face...'
Great song, great music, great backing vocals!
(I really don't mean to insinuate that it has to do with Maharaji. It is a great song per se.)
- Mili
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Date: Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 18:00:08 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: Katie
Subject: Re: Lord of the Unicorns
Message:
Hey Katie, I really loved that song by the Dead (it's on the American Beauty album) - the words go like this:
There is a road,
No simple highway
Between the dawn and dusk of the day (?)
And if you go,
Nobody can follow,
That road is for
Your steps alone
...
Let it be known
There is a fountain
That was not made
By the hands of man.
Did I get some of that right?
- Mili
Mili - That is a beautiful song called 'Ripple'. (I once heard a DJ call it 'a cool song for a hot day'. You got almost all of the words right. I think this is the rest of it:
You who choose to lead must follow
And if you walk, you walk alone
If you should stand, then who's to guide you
If I knew the way, I would take you home.
It's a hand-me-down.
The thoughts are broken
Perhaps they're better left unsung
I don't know, don't really care,
Let there be songs, songs to fill the air.
(this is the chorus)
Ripple in still water
Where there is no pebble tossed
Nor wind to blow.
P.S. Hope we don't get in trouble for getting off topic here!
We used to sing Ripple in at satsang when I was a premie, but the theme song I vote for is "What A Fool Believes" by the Doobie Brothers.
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Date: Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 18:05:27 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Mili
Subject: Re: Lord of the Unicorns
Message:
Katie,
I'd love to get off-topic with you, anytime.
- Mili
P.S. Screw this 'topic'
Mili - thanks for the compliment, although I have to tell you that Jim Heller warned me about you (I guess that's a compliment, too!)
Drop me a line if you want some music tapes. I do warn you that lisstening to the Dead really helped me leave Maharaji...so I might be subversive.
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Date: Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 18:10:00 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: JW
Subject: Re: Lord of the Unicorns
Message:
We used to sing Ripple in at satsang when I was a premie, but the theme song I vote for is 'What A Fool Believes' by the Doobie Brothers.
I don't like the Doobie Brothers in general, but when I was having a hard time while I was a premie, one song that kept me going was "Black Water". It really helped me relax and feel like people were having a good time and not worrying about stuff - somewhere...
P.S. Singing "Ripple" in satsang??
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Date: Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 18:11:07 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: JW
Subject: Re: Lord of the Unicorns
Message:
Hey Katie, I really loved that song by the Dead (it's on the American Beauty album) - the words go like this:
There is a road,
No simple highway
Between the dawn and dusk of the day (?)
And if you go,
Nobody can follow,
That road is for
Your steps alone
...
Let it be known
There is a fountain
That was not made
By the hands of man.
Did I get some of that right?
- Mili
Mili - That is a beautiful song called 'Ripple'. (I once heard a DJ call it 'a cool song for a hot day'. You got almost all of the words right. I think this is the rest of it:
You who choose to lead must follow
And if you walk, you walk alone
If you should stand, then who's to guide you
If I knew the way, I would take you home.
It's a hand-me-down.
The thoughts are broken
Perhaps they're better left unsung
I don't know, don't really care,
Let there be songs, songs to fill the air.
(this is the chorus)
Ripple in still water
Where there is no pebble tossed
Nor wind to blow.
P.S. Hope we don't get in trouble for getting off topic here!
We used to sing Ripple in at satsang when I was a premie, but the theme song I vote for is 'What A Fool Believes' by the Doobie Brothers.
Ouch! Here come da ex-premie police.
Somehow I don't think GMJ would choose that particular song, JW. But he would go for the Steve Miller band, I think.
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Date: Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 18:16:33 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Mili
Subject: Re: Lord of the Unicorns
Message:
I don't know much of Aretha's stuff. But, I really like gospel music (regardless of any connotations).
Edwin Hawkins Singers 'Oh, Happy Day' is one of my favorites!
Mili - I really like gospel too, even though I am not a Christian, or anything for that matter. (I keep feeling Anon the archivist looking over my shoulder telling me I am off topic here!) "Oh Happy Day" is great, and I know the version you are talking about. I really like "I Saw the Light", "A Change is Gonna Come", and "Will the Circle Be Unbroken".
P.S. Aretha sang "Think" in the Blues Brothers movie - have you seen it. Her most famous song is probably "RESPECT".
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Date: Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 18:17:46 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: JW
Subject: Re: Lord of the Unicorns
Message:
I remember premies playing Jackson Browne's 'For Everyman' at the Palace of Peace in London in 1976. Also, when I was entering there with some friends from Bosnia, there was Pink Floyd 'Shine On You Crazy Diamond' theme music playing. I really remember those days fondly. Things were probably hectic there for someone, too, but I really had a fantastic and unforgettable time all the way through. There really was some kind of magic to it.
The first time I saw Maharaji was in a London theatre at a screening of the 'Glastonbury Fayre' music festival documentary.
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Date: Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 18:21:07 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: Katie
Subject: Re: Lord of the Unicorns
Message:
P.S. Singing 'Ripple' in satsang??
Absolutely. Look at the words. They fit right into the "spiritual path" metaphor. This guy Larry Manning used to play guitar and sing it in satsang.
JW
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Date: Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 18:24:10 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Katie
Subject: Re: Lord of the Unicorns
Message:
Well, screw Anon the Archivist then.
You know if we really wanted to turn this into successful therapy instead of what I would call 'whipping a dead horse' here, we would try switching the 'pro' and 'con' sides as in role therapy that is used in marriage counselling.
We could do all sorts of interesting things here if everyone wasn't caught up in a deadlock with his (or hers) entrenched position.
- Mili
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Date: Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 18:29:18 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Mili
Subject: Re: Lord of the Unicorns
Message:
I remember premies playing Jackson Browne's 'For Everyman' at the Palace of Peace in London in 1976. Also, when I was entering there with some friends from Bosnia, there was Pink Floyd 'Shine On You Crazy Diamond' theme music playing. I really remember those days fondly. Things were probably hectic there for someone, too, but I really had a fantastic and unforgettable time all the way through. There really was some kind of magic to it.
The first time I saw Maharaji was in a London theatre at a screening of the 'Glastonbury Fayre' music festival documentary.
Mili - I remember people talking about Maharaji being at Glastonbury - do you remember anything more about it? By the way, when (and where) did you get knowledge?
I went to Guru Puja 1973, which was held at the Alexandra Palace in England, and I remember being shocked at how "loose" the European premies were. All the Americans were trying to dress like "straight" people (Maharaji style, which meant we all looked totally bizarre), and the Europeans still looked like hippies. Also, the sex segregation into "brothers" and "sisters" didn't seem to be as strict there, which surprised me. In general, the European premies didn't appear to be trying to conform to the DLM standard like the American premies were.
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Date: Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 18:33:19 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: Lord of the Unicorns
Message:
P.S. Singing 'Ripple' in satsang??
Absolutely. Look at the words. They fit right into the 'spiritual path' metaphor. This guy Larry Manning used to play guitar and sing it in satsang.
JW
Sort of -
"If I knew the way, I would take you home." is not exactly something GM would say. But I can see how people would sing it as a spiritual song, and one of my old premie boyfriends just LOVED that song, so you're probably right.
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Date: Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 18:34:08 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Katie
Subject: Re: Lord of the Unicorns
Message:
I remember premies playing Jackson Browne's 'For Everyman' at the Palace of Peace in London in 1976. Also, when I was entering there with some friends from Bosnia, there was Pink Floyd 'Shine On You Crazy Diamond' theme music playing. I really remember those days fondly. Things were probably hectic there for someone, too, but I really had a fantastic and unforgettable time all the way through. There really was some kind of magic to it.
The first time I saw Maharaji was in a London theatre at a screening of the 'Glastonbury Fayre' music festival documentary.
Mili - I remember people talking about Maharaji being at Glastonbury - do you remember anything more about it? By the way, when (and where) did you get knowledge?
I went to Guru Puja 1973, which was held at the Alexandra Palace in England, and I remember being shocked at how 'loose' the European premies were. All the Americans were trying to dress like 'straight' people (Maharaji style, which meant we all looked totally bizarre), and the Europeans still looked like hippies. Also, the sex segregation into 'brothers' and 'sisters' didn't seem to be as strict there, which surprised me. In general, the European premies didn't appear to be trying to conform to the DLM standard like the American premies were.
That's because we didn't have Mishler breathing down our backs then.
(Now I really gotta split - ex-premie police are gonna murder me for saying that!)
- Mili
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Date: Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 18:38:54 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Mili
Subject: Re: Lord of the Unicorns
Message:
Well, screw Anon the Archivist then.
You know if we really wanted to turn this into successful therapy instead of what I would call 'whipping a dead horse' here, we would try switching the 'pro' and 'con' sides as in role therapy that is used in marriage counselling.
We could do all sorts of interesting things here if everyone wasn't caught up in a deadlock with his (or hers) entrenched position.
- Mili
Yeah - I can probably archive if Anon doesn't want to (I would appreciate it if he would return the Archive Digests though!!!).
But Mili - you need to elaborate. (And how do you know about marriage counseling anyway? Have you been hiding something from us?)
(I don't think I could stick up for GM, by the way.. Maybe someone else on here could. I just have aversion, if you know what I mean. If you don't, I can explain it.)
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Date: Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 18:45:25 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email:
To: Mili
Subject: Re: Lord of the Unicorns
Message:
That's because we didn't have Mishler breathing down our backs then.
(Now I really gotta split - ex-premie police are gonna murder me for saying that!)
- Mili
Well, maybe so. But I don't think it was just Mishler. I think it was a North American thing. Maharaji lived here a lot of the time, so maybe his wishes became "diluted" by the time they reached Europe. I definitely remember being told that Maharaji wished the "sisters" to wear long skirts, and also being told that he wanted us to look "sharp". It's pretty hard to do both those things in combination!
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Date: Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 18:47:06 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Katie
Subject: Re: Lord of the Unicorns
Message:
Well, screw Anon the Archivist then.
You know if we really wanted to turn this into successful therapy instead of what I would call 'whipping a dead horse' here, we would try switching the 'pro' and 'con' sides as in role therapy that is used in marriage counselling.
We could do all sorts of interesting things here if everyone wasn't caught up in a deadlock with his (or hers) entrenched position.
- Mili
Yeah - I can probably archive if Anon doesn't want to (I would appreciate it if he would return the Archive Digests though!!!).
But Mili - you need to elaborate. (And how do you know about marriage counseling anyway? Have you been hiding something from us?)
(I don't think I could stick up for GM, by the way.. Maybe someone else on here could. I just have aversion, if you know what I mean. If you don't, I can explain it.)
It's OK. You might not believe me, but I am just rooting for you to stick up for yourself. I admire your attitude of 'making peace' with your past.
You know, I can relate to a lot of stuff that you guys say. I've been through some pretty weird stuff with premies. I've seen fights break out. Never really hit it off right with community Coordinators. And I always disliked the ashram fanatics (and now looked what I've become!). But, listening and reading Maharaji's satsangs always did the trick for me, even if it meant stepping back and trying to figure things out on my own sometimes.
That road is 'for your steps alone', after all.
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Date: Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 18:57:45 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Mili
Subject: Re: Lord of the Unicorns
Message:
It's OK. You might not believe me, but I am just rooting for you to stick up for yourself. I admire your attitude of 'making peace' with your past.
You know, I can relate to a lot of stuff that you guys say. I've been through some pretty weird stuff with premies. I've seen fights break out. Never really hit it off right with community Coordinators. And I always disliked the ashram fanatics (and now looked what I've become!). But, listening and reading Maharaji's satsangs always did the trick for me, even if it meant stepping back and trying to figure things out on my own sometimes.
That road is 'for your steps alone', after all.
Mili - Thanks very much. And I am glad that you can relate to some of the stuff we say. One of the reasons I (and others too, I think) appreciate your input (or some of it anyway!) is because you do appear to be trying to figure things out for yourself.
Regards from
Katie
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Date: Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 18:58:46 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Katie
Subject: Re: Lord of the Unicorns
Message:
That's because we didn't have Mishler breathing down our backs then.
(Now I really gotta split - ex-premie police are gonna murder me for saying that!)
- Mili
Well, maybe so. But I don't think it was just Mishler. I think it was a North American thing. Maharaji lived here a lot of the time, so maybe his wishes became 'diluted' by the time they reached Europe. I definitely remember being told that Maharaji wished the 'sisters' to wear long skirts, and also being told that he wanted us to look 'sharp'. It's pretty hard to do both those things in combination!
Maybe I was just lucky, but I never got caught up with that.
We were a pretty eclectic bunch here in Zagreb. We had satsang in a little house on top of a hill, played a lot of music and made pancakes. Maybe it was because the guy who started it all here, Tom Saykovich (wonder what happened to him?), was a pretty easy-going fellow, fresh from Indian Hans Jayanthi, and an anti-authoritarian. I think he didn't fit in well into the DLM at the time, but was still quite devoted to Maharaji and really meditated with relish. That's what turned all of us on to it, really.
I received Knowledge from Krishnasukhanand. He was a regular orthodox Indian mahatma, but had a flair for play-acting and music, and people really flocked to listen to him here.
- Mili
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Date: Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 19:06:25 (EST)
Poster: Michael
Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net
To: Katie
Subject: Re: Lord of the Unicorns
Message:
Ah, I remember the Premies who were also Dead Heads. I have never really been fond of the Dead, and I remember a show they did at the Oakland Coliseum in 1975 or 1976 with The Who. I was going to see The Who, while many of my Premie pals were going to see the Dead. I recall them saying, "now you'll see that the Dead don't sound like a bunch of stoned Hippies out on the back porch," but, they took twenty minutes between songs to smoke a joint, and, dang, they DID sound like stoned Hippies on the porch! I will admit that when they were "on" though, they were great.
I nominate a song by Brian Eno; it has a terrible title (Dead Finks Don't Talk) but it contains the line "Oh Perfect Masters, they thrive on disasters."
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Date: Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 19:06:49 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email:
To: Mili
Subject: Re: Lord of the Unicorns
Message:
That's because we didn't have Mishler breathing down our backs then.
(Now I really gotta split - ex-premie police are gonna murder me for saying that!)
- Mili
Well, maybe so. But I don't think it was just Mishler. I think it was a North American thing. Maharaji lived here a lot of the time, so maybe his wishes became 'diluted' by the time they reached Europe. I definitely remember being told that Maharaji wished the 'sisters' to wear long skirts, and also being told that he wanted us to look 'sharp'. It's pretty hard to do both those things in combination!
Maybe I was just lucky, but I never got caught up with that.
We were a pretty eclectic bunch here in Zagreb. We had satsang in a little house on top of a hill, played a lot of music and made pancakes. Maybe it was because the guy who started it all here, Tom Saykovich (wonder what happened to him?), was a pretty easy-going fellow, fresh from Indian Hans Jayanthi, and an anti-authoritarian. I think he didn't fit in well into the DLM at the time, but was still quite devoted to Maharaji and really meditated with relish. That's what turned all of us on to it, really.
I received Knowledge from Krishnasukhanand. He was a regular orthodox Indian mahatma, but had a flair for play-acting and music, and people really flocked to listen to him here.
- Mili
Mili - When did you get knowledge (what year)? I am just curious. I got knowledge in 1972, left in early 1977, which JW says was good timing as things within DLM got really heavy in the States then.
I am really jealous of all you European premies, by the way. Although I think the British premies endured the same regimen that we did in the States (and Canada?).
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Date: Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 19:13:49 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Michael
Subject: Re: Lord of the Unicorns
Message:
Ah, I remember the Premies who were also Dead Heads. I have never really been fond of the Dead, and I remember a show they did at the Oakland Coliseum in 1975 or 1976 with The Who. I was going to see The Who, while many of my Premie pals were going to see the Dead. I recall them saying, 'now you'll see that the Dead don't sound like a bunch of stoned Hippies out on the back porch,' but, they took twenty minutes between songs to smoke a joint, and, dang, they DID sound like stoned Hippies on the porch! I will admit that when they were 'on' though, they were great.
I nominate a song by Brian Eno; it has a terrible title (Dead Finks Don't Talk) but it contains the line 'Oh Perfect Masters, they thrive on disasters.'
Hi Michael - After the things I said about hillbilly Pentacostals on here (sorry!), I guess you are entitled to trash the Dead. But truthfully, the Dead and their music really helped me "deprogram" myself from GMJ, especially since I had never really listened to the Dead until I left GMJ (I did have the 45 of "Uncle John's Band - wish I'd kept it - but that's about it) The song "Friend of the Devil" has great significance to me because I, at times, thought that I was going to hell because of leaving GMJ. It was comforting to know I'd have company there.
P.S.Do "Perfect Masters REALLY Thrive on Disasters?" Good line, anyway.
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Date: Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 19:25:20 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Katie
Subject: Re: Lord of the Unicorns
Message:
That's because we didn't have Mishler breathing down our backs then.
(Now I really gotta split - ex-premie police are gonna murder me for saying that!)
- Mili
Well, maybe so. But I don't think it was just Mishler. I think it was a North American thing. Maharaji lived here a lot of the time, so maybe his wishes became 'diluted' by the time they reached Europe. I definitely remember being told that Maharaji wished the 'sisters' to wear long skirts, and also being told that he wanted us to look 'sharp'. It's pretty hard to do both those things in combination!
Maybe I was just lucky, but I never got caught up with that.
We were a pretty eclectic bunch here in Zagreb. We had satsang in a little house on top of a hill, played a lot of music and made pancakes. Maybe it was because the guy who started it all here, Tom Saykovich (wonder what happened to him?), was a pretty easy-going fellow, fresh from Indian Hans Jayanthi, and an anti-authoritarian. I think he didn't fit in well into the DLM at the time, but was still quite devoted to Maharaji and really meditated with relish. That's what turned all of us on to it, really.
I received Knowledge from Krishnasukhanand. He was a regular orthodox Indian mahatma, but had a flair for play-acting and music, and people really flocked to listen to him here.
- Mili
Mili - When did you get knowledge (what year)? I am just curious. I got knowledge in 1972, left in early 1977, which JW says was good timing as things within DLM got really heavy in the States then.
I am really jealous of all you European premies, by the way. Although I think the British premies endured the same regimen that we did in the States (and Canada?).
I received Knowledge in late summer 1975. I remember it well because there was a Santana concert in Zagreb, and I had a ticket, but I went to get the Knowledge instead and sent my mother to the Santana concert instead. She loved it!
Really had a great time (no bullshit!) from 1976 to 1982, with a year's break in the Yugoslav army in 1979. I meditated a lot there, though. The thing is, those festivals were like, one better after another. The sky was the limit. I didn't feel any of the heavy stuff you are talking about at all, apart from the ususal idiosyncrasies with community coordinators, premie zealots, long bus trips, etc.
I am sorry this all sounds so ideal, but it was a part of my life I remember with great fondness and it was really cool. Everything was going well, I was going to satsang, meditating, going to the festivals, I finished University in time, had girlfriends, even smoked pot and jammed with my musician friends (non-premies), and everything fit in like a breeze.
Somehow, I'm still trying to recapture all that after all this time. Now it seems it's all down to basic survival.
- Mili
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Date: Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 22:59:03 (EST)
Poster: Insomniac Sir David
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: Mili
Subject: Re: Lord of the Unicorns
Message:
Interesting that you were around the Palace of Peace in 1976 Mili. I came down to London to live very near the Palace in April '76. I've almost certainly seen you there.
Where did you stay in London? And yes Katie, the premie scene in Britain was very strict before it all collapsed in the eighties. I think the main reason why I didn't enjoy the programs and festivals Mili was because I was so full of anxiety with all the heavy numbers I'd been through in DLM. I was not relaxed. I think your seventies' experience was much better.
For a theme song for this forum, how about "You've Got A Friend" by James Taylor.
By the way, I like your idea of reversing roles as a therapy, Mili.
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Date: Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 22:59:11 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Mili
Subject: Re: Lord of the Unicorns
Message:
That's because we didn't have Mishler breathing down our backs then.
(Now I really gotta split - ex-premie police are gonna murder me for saying that!)
- Mili
Well, maybe so. But I don't think it was just Mishler. I think it was a North American thing. Maharaji lived here a lot of the time, so maybe his wishes became 'diluted' by the time they reached Europe. I definitely remember being told that Maharaji wished the 'sisters' to wear long skirts, and also being told that he wanted us to look 'sharp'. It's pretty hard to do both those things in combination!
Maybe I was just lucky, but I never got caught up with that.
We were a pretty eclectic bunch here in Zagreb. We had satsang in a little house on top of a hill, played a lot of music and made pancakes. Maybe it was because the guy who started it all here, Tom Saykovich (wonder what happened to him?), was a pretty easy-going fellow, fresh from Indian Hans Jayanthi, and an anti-authoritarian. I think he didn't fit in well into the DLM at the time, but was still quite devoted to Maharaji and really meditated with relish. That's what turned all of us on to it, really.
I received Knowledge from Krishnasukhanand. He was a regular orthodox Indian mahatma, but had a flair for play-acting and music, and people really flocked to listen to him here.
- Mili
Mili - When did you get knowledge (what year)? I am just curious. I got knowledge in 1972, left in early 1977, which JW says was good timing as things within DLM got really heavy in the States then.
I am really jealous of all you European premies, by the way. Although I think the British premies endured the same regimen that we did in the States (and Canada?).
I received Knowledge in late summer 1975. I remember it well because there was a Santana concert in Zagreb, and I had a ticket, but I went to get the Knowledge instead and sent my mother to the Santana concert instead. She loved it!
Really had a great time (no bullshit!) from 1976 to 1982, with a year's break in the Yugoslav army in 1979. I meditated a lot there, though. The thing is, those festivals were like, one better after another. The sky was the limit. I didn't feel any of the heavy stuff you are talking about at all, apart from the ususal idiosyncrasies with community coordinators, premie zealots, long bus trips, etc.
I am sorry this all sounds so ideal, but it was a part of my life I remember with great fondness and it was really cool. Everything was going well, I was going to satsang, meditating, going to the festivals, I finished University in time, had girlfriends, even smoked pot and jammed with my musician friends (non-premies), and everything fit in like a breeze.
Somehow, I'm still trying to recapture all that after all this time. Now it seems it's all down to basic survival.
- Mili
I know what you're talking about - I feel the same way about my college/grad school years (although those were after after I left Maharaji.) At least I think I do. Everything was just so easy and nice then. Things haven't been the greatest ever since, but I guess that's just part of growing up. Who knows?
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Date: Sat, Dec 20, 1997 at 00:25:48 (EST)
Poster: Michael
Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net
To: Katie
Subject: Re: Lord of the Unicorns
Message:
Ah, I remember the Premies who were also Dead Heads. I have never really been fond of the Dead, and I remember a show they did at the Oakland Coliseum in 1975 or 1976 with The Who. I was going to see The Who, while many of my Premie pals were going to see the Dead. I recall them saying, 'now you'll see that the Dead don't sound like a bunch of stoned Hippies out on the back porch,' but, they took twenty minutes between songs to smoke a joint, and, dang, they DID sound like stoned Hippies on the porch! I will admit that when they were 'on' though, they were great.
I nominate a song by Brian Eno; it has a terrible title (Dead Finks Don't Talk) but it contains the line 'Oh Perfect Masters, they thrive on disasters.'
Hi Michael - After the things I said about hillbilly Pentacostals on here (sorry!), I guess you are entitled to trash the Dead. But truthfully, the Dead and their music really helped me 'deprogram' myself from GMJ, especially since I had never really listened to the Dead until I left GMJ (I did have the 45 of 'Uncle John's Band - wish I'd kept it - but that's about it) The song 'Friend of the Devil' has great significance to me because I, at times, thought that I was going to hell because of leaving GMJ. It was comforting to know I'd have company there.
P.S.Do 'Perfect Masters REALLY Thrive on Disasters?' Good line, anyway.
Don't worry, Katie, I agree with you about Hillbilly Pentecostals! My parents were Pentecostal, but I never could stand them! I didn't really mean to trash the Dead; I've heard them do some pretty good stuff, it's just that I got into Punk and New Wave once I left DLM. I always preferred The Who and bands of that ilk over the Dead and most of the stuff the Premies listened to.
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Date: Sat, Dec 20, 1997 at 01:03:22 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Michael
Subject: Re: Lord of the Unicorns
Message:
Ah, I remember the Premies who were also Dead Heads. I have never really been fond of the Dead, and I remember a show they did at the Oakland Coliseum in 1975 or 1976 with The Who. I was going to see The Who, while many of my Premie pals were going to see the Dead. I recall them saying, 'now you'll see that the Dead don't sound like a bunch of stoned Hippies out on the back porch,' but, they took twenty minutes between songs to smoke a joint, and, dang, they DID sound like stoned Hippies on the porch! I will admit that when they were 'on' though, they were great.
I nominate a song by Brian Eno; it has a terrible title (Dead Finks Don't Talk) but it contains the line 'Oh Perfect Masters, they thrive on disasters.'
Hi Michael - After the things I said about hillbilly Pentacostals on here (sorry!), I guess you are entitled to trash the Dead. But truthfully, the Dead and their music really helped me 'deprogram' myself from GMJ, especially since I had never really listened to the Dead until I left GMJ (I did have the 45 of 'Uncle John's Band - wish I'd kept it - but that's about it) The song 'Friend of the Devil' has great significance to me because I, at times, thought that I was going to hell because of leaving GMJ. It was comforting to know I'd have company there.
P.S.Do 'Perfect Masters REALLY Thrive on Disasters?' Good line, anyway.
Don't worry, Katie, I agree with you about Hillbilly Pentecostals! My parents were Pentecostal, but I never could stand them! I didn't really mean to trash the Dead; I've heard them do some pretty good stuff, it's just that I got into Punk and New Wave once I left DLM. I always preferred The Who and bands of that ilk over the Dead and most of the stuff the Premies listened to.
Michael -
I have to admit that I've been to some really BAD Dead shows - that's one of the reasons I quit going - but you're right that when they were ON (and not taking hours long breaks) they were great. I did also like new wave (and some punk) too (I think Elvis Costello and X are/were my favorites).
I am glad you weren't insulted by the Pentecostal references that I made (they are true, and you might have known people like that at one time).
P.S. FYI, I was baptized and confirmed as an Episcopalian, but I think it was just something my mom felt like she HAD to do. I am not sure how my parents picked the Episcopal church - my mom's parents were non-practicing Lutherans who sent her to the Baptist church for Sunday School because it was the closest to their house, and my dad's father was a Missouri Synod Lutheran.
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Date: Sat, Dec 20, 1997 at 15:28:04 (EST)
Poster: bftb
Email:
To: Katie
Subject: Re: Lord of the Unicorns
Message:
This forum could do with a theme song. How about 'We're going to hang out our washing on the darshan line, if the darshan line's still there.'
If the reference has lost something in crossing the Atlantic I should perhaps mention a popular song sung by British troops during WW2 that went: 'We're going to hang out our washing on the Siegfried Line, if the Siegfried Line's still there.'
How about having 'When the Saints Go Marching In' as the theme song?
I vote for 'Father Christmas' by the Kinks (for all you Xmas fans out there), 'Come In From the Cold' by Joni Mitchell (second verse), 'Rock and Roll' by Lou Reed, 'Brother's Keeper' by the Neville Brothers, 'Riding with the King' by John Hiatt, or my favorite (but I know nobody else likes it) 'Friend of the Devil' by the Dead.
how bout 'candyman' or 'built to last'
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Date: Sat, Dec 20, 1997 at 15:57:54 (EST)
Poster: bftb
Email:
To: Katie
Subject: Re: Lord of the Unicorns
Message:
Ah, I remember the Premies who were also Dead Heads. I have never really been fond of the Dead, and I remember a show they did at the Oakland Coliseum in 1975 or 1976 with The Who. I was going to see The Who, while many of my Premie pals were going to see the Dead. I recall them saying, 'now you'll see that the Dead don't sound like a bunch of stoned Hippies out on the back porch,' but, they took twenty minutes between songs to smoke a joint, and, dang, they DID sound like stoned Hippies on the porch! I will admit that when they were 'on' though, they were great.
I nominate a song by Brian Eno; it has a terrible title (Dead Finks Don't Talk) but it contains the line 'Oh Perfect Masters, they thrive on disasters.'
Hi Michael - After the things I said about hillbilly Pentacostals on here (sorry!), I guess you are entitled to trash the Dead. But truthfully, the Dead and their music really helped me 'deprogram' myself from GMJ, especially since I had never really listened to the Dead until I left GMJ (I did have the 45 of 'Uncle John's Band - wish I'd kept it - but that's about it) The song 'Friend of the Devil' has great significance to me because I, at times, thought that I was going to hell because of leaving GMJ. It was comforting to know I'd have company there.
P.S.Do 'Perfect Masters REALLY Thrive on Disasters?' Good line, anyway.
Don't worry, Katie, I agree with you about Hillbilly Pentecostals! My parents were Pentecostal, but I never could stand them! I didn't really mean to trash the Dead; I've heard them do some pretty good stuff, it's just that I got into Punk and New Wave once I left DLM. I always preferred The Who and bands of that ilk over the Dead and most of the stuff the Premies listened to.
Michael -
I have to admit that I've been to some really BAD Dead shows - that's one of the reasons I quit going - but you're right that when they were ON (and not taking hours long breaks) they were great. I did also like new wave (and some punk) too (I think Elvis Costello and X are/were my favorites).
I am glad you weren't insulted by the Pentecostal references that I made (they are true, and you might have known people like that at one time).
P.S. FYI, I was baptized and confirmed as an Episcopalian, but I think it was just something my mom felt like she HAD to do. I am not sure how my parents picked the Episcopal church - my mom's parents were non-practicing Lutherans who sent her to the Baptist church for Sunday School because it was the closest to their house, and my dad's father was a Missouri Synod Lutheran.
best show I ever saw was at the hult Ceter in Eugene,oregon in May'84.First Scarlet/Touch ever.It was pure phil spontaneous inspiration!Lots of great shows and even great moments at generally uninspired shows.I was a wierd deadhead in that I actually preferred Garcia band shows to dead shows.no bobby reigning jerry in at gar band shows.Jerry heaven that was.
Punk of course is great:check out a band from canada called GOB-they're lots'o'fun.If you like ska/punk check out Rancid-great band!Man;i could go on and on naming great bands worth checking out...here's another:The Flaming Lips;truly one of my all time faves-'clouds taste metallic' would be a good flaming lips primer.If you've ever liked the Ramones check out a little known band from calgary canada called 'chixdiggit!'they've only got one record out but it's a classic.
How could I forget to nominate one of the best songs ever written about spiritual delusion,Grateful Dead's own 'Estimated Prophet'
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Date: Sat, Dec 20, 1997 at 16:28:07 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: bftb
Subject: Re: Lord of the Unicorns
Message:
Ah, I remember the Premies who were also Dead Heads. I have never really been fond of the Dead, and I remember a show they did at the Oakland Coliseum in 1975 or 1976 with The Who. I was going to see The Who, while many of my Premie pals were going to see the Dead. I recall them saying, 'now you'll see that the Dead don't sound like a bunch of stoned Hippies out on the back porch,' but, they took twenty minutes between songs to smoke a joint, and, dang, they DID sound like stoned Hippies on the porch! I will admit that when they were 'on' though, they were great.
I nominate a song by Brian Eno; it has a terrible title (Dead Finks Don't Talk) but it contains the line 'Oh Perfect Masters, they thrive on disasters.'
Hi Michael - After the things I said about hillbilly Pentacostals on here (sorry!), I guess you are entitled to trash the Dead. But truthfully, the Dead and their music really helped me 'deprogram' myself from GMJ, especially since I had never really listened to the Dead until I left GMJ (I did have the 45 of 'Uncle John's Band - wish I'd kept it - but that's about it) The song 'Friend of the Devil' has great significance to me because I, at times, thought that I was going to hell because of leaving GMJ. It was comforting to know I'd have company there.
P.S.Do 'Perfect Masters REALLY Thrive on Disasters?' Good line, anyway.
Don't worry, Katie, I agree with you about Hillbilly Pentecostals! My parents were Pentecostal, but I never could stand them! I didn't really mean to trash the Dead; I've heard them do some pretty good stuff, it's just that I got into Punk and New Wave once I left DLM. I always preferred The Who and bands of that ilk over the Dead and most of the stuff the Premies listened to.
Michael -
I have to admit that I've been to some really BAD Dead shows - that's one of the reasons I quit going - but you're right that when they were ON (and not taking hours long breaks) they were great. I did also like new wave (and some punk) too (I think Elvis Costello and X are/were my favorites).
I am glad you weren't insulted by the Pentecostal references that I made (they are true, and you might have known people like that at one time).
P.S. FYI, I was baptized and confirmed as an Episcopalian, but I think it was just something my mom felt like she HAD to do. I am not sure how my parents picked the Episcopal church - my mom's parents were non-practicing Lutherans who sent her to the Baptist church for Sunday School because it was the closest to their house, and my dad's father was a Missouri Synod Lutheran.
best show I ever saw was at the hult Ceter in Eugene,oregon in May'84.First Scarlet/Touch ever.It was pure phil spontaneous inspiration!Lots of great shows and even great moments at generally uninspired shows.I was a wierd deadhead in that I actually preferred Garcia band shows to dead shows.no bobby reigning jerry in at gar band shows.Jerry heaven that was.
Punk of course is great:check out a band from canada called GOB-they're lots'o'fun.If you like ska/punk check out Rancid-great band!Man;i could go on and on naming great bands worth checking out...here's another:The Flaming Lips;truly one of my all time faves-'clouds taste metallic' would be a good flaming lips primer.If you've ever liked the Ramones check out a little known band from calgary canada called 'chixdiggit!'they've only got one record out but it's a classic.
How could I forget to nominate one of the best songs ever written about spiritual delusion,Grateful Dead's own 'Estimated Prophet'
Hey bftb ("hey" is how we say "hi" in the south BTW, don't know where you are from. I like it better):
I agree with you - I liked Garcia Band shows better too. Less teenage DeadHeads, smaller venues, better acoustics, and I really liked Jerry Garcia's covers of Dylan songs and things like "I second that Emotion". I stopped going in the early 80's though because I got tired of the younger DeadHead crowd.
Thanks for the band suggestions; would be happy to hear more any time (if it's not too off topic!)
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Date: Sat, Dec 20, 1997 at 16:33:26 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: bftb
Subject: Re: Lord of the Unicorns
Message:
"Candyman" is good (I am making a tape for an ex-premie someone - can you tell? Would welcome any more suggestions from anyone).
I have never heard "Built to Last" - I am embarrassed to admit this but the last Dead album I listened to were the two live albums that came out in the early 80's: Reckoning and Dead Set. And I have also heard "Alabama Getaway" (CD's favorite) and "Touch of Grey". But those were after my time, really.
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Date: Sat, Dec 20, 1997 at 18:43:41 (EST)
Poster: bftb
Email:
To: Katie
Subject: off topic:musicRe: Lord of the Unicorns (Re: Lord of the Unicorns)
Message:
Ah, I remember the Premies who were also Dead Heads. I have never really been fond of the Dead, and I remember a show they did at the Oakland Coliseum in 1975 or 1976 with The Who. I was going to see The Who, while many of my Premie pals were going to see the Dead. I recall them saying, 'now you'll see that the Dead don't sound like a bunch of stoned Hippies out on the back porch,' but, they took twenty minutes between songs to smoke a joint, and, dang, they DID sound like stoned Hippies on the porch! I will admit that when they were 'on' though, they were great.
I nominate a song by Brian Eno; it has a terrible title (Dead Finks Don't Talk) but it contains the line 'Oh Perfect Masters, they thrive on disasters.'
Hi Michael - After the things I said about hillbilly Pentacostals on here (sorry!), I guess you are entitled to trash the Dead. But truthfully, the Dead and their music really helped me 'deprogram' myself from GMJ, especially since I had never really listened to the Dead until I left GMJ (I did have the 45 of 'Uncle John's Band - wish I'd kept it - but that's about it) The song 'Friend of the Devil' has great significance to me because I, at times, thought that I was going to hell because of leaving GMJ. It was comforting to know I'd have company there.
P.S.Do 'Perfect Masters REALLY Thrive on Disasters?' Good line, anyway.
Don't worry, Katie, I agree with you about Hillbilly Pentecostals! My parents were Pentecostal, but I never could stand them! I didn't really mean to trash the Dead; I've heard them do some pretty good stuff, it's just that I got into Punk and New Wave once I left DLM. I always preferred The Who and bands of that ilk over the Dead and most of the stuff the Premies listened to.
Michael -
I have to admit that I've been to some really BAD Dead shows - that's one of the reasons I quit going - but you're right that when they were ON (and not taking hours long breaks) they were great. I did also like new wave (and some punk) too (I think Elvis Costello and X are/were my favorites).
I am glad you weren't insulted by the Pentecostal references that I made (they are true, and you might have known people like that at one time).
P.S. FYI, I was baptized and confirmed as an Episcopalian, but I think it was just something my mom felt like she HAD to do. I am not sure how my parents picked the Episcopal church - my mom's parents were non-practicing Lutherans who sent her to the Baptist church for Sunday School because it was the closest to their house, and my dad's father was a Missouri Synod Lutheran.
best show I ever saw was at the hult Ceter in Eugene,oregon in May'84.First Scarlet/Touch ever.It was pure phil spontaneous inspiration!Lots of great shows and even great moments at generally uninspired shows.I was a wierd deadhead in that I actually preferred Garcia band shows to dead shows.no bobby reigning jerry in at gar band shows.Jerry heaven that was.
Punk of course is great:check out a band from canada called GOB-they're lots'o'fun.If you like ska/punk check out Rancid-great band!Man;i could go on and on naming great bands worth checking out...here's another:The Flaming Lips;truly one of my all time faves-'clouds taste metallic' would be a good flaming lips primer.If you've ever liked the Ramones check out a little known band from calgary canada called 'chixdiggit!'they've only got one record out but it's a classic.
How could I forget to nominate one of the best songs ever written about spiritual delusion,Grateful Dead's own 'Estimated Prophet'
Hey bftb ('hey' is how we say 'hi' in the south BTW, don't know where you are from. I like it better):
I agree with you - I liked Garcia Band shows better too. Less teenage DeadHeads, smaller venues, better acoustics, and I really liked Jerry Garcia's covers of Dylan songs and things like 'I second that Emotion'. I stopped going in the early 80's though because I got tired of the younger DeadHead crowd.
Thanks for the band suggestions; would be happy to hear more any time (if it's not too off topic!)
The dead at some points could have been called Grateful Dylan because half the songs they did were zimmy covers.it's all come full circle now as these days the true prophet:-)known as bob dylan has been playing alabama getaway and friend of the devil at his shows.He also plays 'silvio' which is from a 1986 record called 'down in the groove'.silvio was written for dylan by robert hunter.
At my first garcia band show in'81 I would have qualified as one of those 'teenage deadheads'.for me I got sick of it all around '89 when I found myself in oakland at a dead show and I was actually bored.That was my last show.It seems like a pattern with things like this where what once was pure/genuine/real maintains some of that but over time can become a parody of itself.in this case the parody for me anyway was 'deadheadness' It's like it seemed that by the end people were just showing up for this mythical scene they'd heard so much about.follower types(oh boy)who really didn't even know any of the music.Drunken frat boys and girls and scenemakers and.....it just got too big and in certain ways phony....but the music was always real.
You know the dead have a website and an online store with tons of great music for sale.They have a mail order series called 'dick's picks' which are unedited full shows released on cd from their own vault master tapes.There's lots of garcia band stuff there too. Built to last came out in '89 2 years after 'in the dark' which had 'touch of grey' on it,which was such a hit and which is what caused the popularity explosion that in my opinion lead to all the stuff I didn't like.anyway,btl was not a great record but the jerry songs are classics.Built to last,Foolish heart,and standing on the moon are great and are the highlights of btl.
"carve your name,carve your name in ice and wind.never look,never look around the bend,or check a weather chart.do everything within you that you feel to be your part,but never give your love my friend,unto a foolish heart,unto a foolish heart" or something like that.
If you like dylan then it's definately worth it to check out his new one"time out of mind" different then anything you've heard him do and it's a real creeper.It grows on you.It's actually a haunting experience but brilliant.The song 'not dark yet' almost made me cry as much as when frosty the snowman melted.
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Date: Sat, Dec 20, 1997 at 18:47:54 (EST)
Poster: katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: bftb
Subject: Re: Lord of the Unicorns
Message:
This forum could do with a theme song. How about 'We're going to hang out our washing on the darshan line, if the darshan line's still there.'
If the reference has lost something in crossing the Atlantic I should perhaps mention a popular song sung by British troops during WW2 that went: 'We're going to hang out our washing on the Siegfried Line, if the Siegfried Line's still there.'
How about having 'When the Saints Go Marching In' as the theme song?
I vote for 'Father Christmas' by the Kinks (for all you Xmas fans out there), 'Come In From the Cold' by Joni Mitchell (second verse), 'Rock and Roll' by Lou Reed, 'Brother's Keeper' by the Neville Brothers, 'Riding with the King' by John Hiatt, or my favorite (but I know nobody else likes it) 'Friend of the Devil' by the Dead.
how bout 'candyman' or 'built to last'
I forgot about "One More Saturday Night", and since it IS Saturday night:
Big god way up in heaven
For whatever it was worth
Thought he'd have a big old party
Thought he'd call it planet earth
****
Turned on the TV, [Maharaji] was on the news
Said I get no satisfaction, that's why I sing the blues
Now I said don't get crazy - you know just what to do.
Break out that old guitar and put on those dancing shoes.
Dont worry about the noise
Or the bombs when they come
When the rock and roll music
Meets the bright and shining sun.
Meaningless but true, right? (And sorry if it's off topic!!!)
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Date: Sat, Dec 20, 1997 at 19:34:53 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: bftb
Subject: Re: off topic:musicLord of the Unicorns (Re: Lord of the Unicorns)
Message:
The dead at some points could have been called Grateful Dylan because half the songs they did were zimmy covers.it's all come full circle now as these days the true prophet:-)known as bob dylan has been playing alabama getaway and friend of the devil at his shows.He also plays 'silvio' which is from a 1986 record called 'down in the groove'.silvio was written for dylan by robert hunter.
At my first garcia band show in'81 I would have qualified as one of those 'teenage deadheads'.for me I got sick of it all around '89 when I found myself in oakland at a dead show and I was actually bored.That was my last show.It seems like a pattern with things like this where what once was pure/genuine/real maintains some of that but over time can become a parody of itself.in this case the parody for me anyway was 'deadheadness' It's like it seemed that by the end people were just showing up for this mythical scene they'd heard so much about.follower types(oh boy)who really didn't even know any of the music.Drunken frat boys and girls and scenemakers and.....it just got too big and in certain ways phony....but the music was always real.
You know the dead have a website and an online store with tons of great music for sale.They have a mail order series called 'dick's picks' which are unedited full shows released on cd from their own vault master tapes.There's lots of garcia band stuff there too. Built to last came out in '89 2 years after 'in the dark' which had 'touch of grey' on it,which was such a hit and which is what caused the popularity explosion that in my opinion lead to all the stuff I didn't like.anyway,btl was not a great record but the jerry songs are classics.Built to last,Foolish heart,and standing on the moon are great and are the highlights of btl.
'carve your name,carve your name in ice and wind.never look,never look around the bend,or check a weather chart.do everything within you that you feel to be your part,but never give your love my friend,unto a foolish heart,unto a foolish heart' or something like that.
If you like dylan then it's definately worth it to check out his new one'time out of mind' different then anything you've heard him do and it's a real creeper.It grows on you.It's actually a haunting experience but brilliant.The song 'not dark yet' almost made me cry as much as when frosty the snowman melted.
I have heard the new Dylan album - a guy I know from work is a huge Dylan fan and taped it for me. [I will make sure to tell him about "Alabama Getaway", "Silvio", and "Friend of the Devil" (although everyone plays that now!)] I have a real hard time with Dylan's voice now, so I wasn't that crazy about the album as a whole, but I thought that the songs were great. (Especially the one you mentioned, by the way - "Not Dark Yet".)
BTW, bftb, I am used to being one of the youngest people on this forum (and I am 41...), but sounds like you are quite a bit younger. Also, you said earlier that you had let it slip whether you were a premie or ex-premie, but I still couldn't figure it out from your post. I'd be curious to know when you got knowledge, and how you feel about it now. If you care to say so, that is.
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Date: Sat, Dec 20, 1997 at 22:36:52 (EST)
Poster: bftb
Email:
To: Katie
Subject: Re: off topic:musicLord of the Unicorns (Re: Lord of the Unicorns)
Message:
The dead at some points could have been called Grateful Dylan because half the songs they did were zimmy covers.it's all come full circle now as these days the true prophet:-)known as bob dylan has been playing alabama getaway and friend of the devil at his shows.He also plays 'silvio' which is from a 1986 record called 'down in the groove'.silvio was written for dylan by robert hunter.
At my first garcia band show in'81 I would have qualified as one of those 'teenage deadheads'.for me I got sick of it all around '89 when I found myself in oakland at a dead show and I was actually bored.That was my last show.It seems like a pattern with things like this where what once was pure/genuine/real maintains some of that but over time can become a parody of itself.in this case the parody for me anyway was 'deadheadness' It's like it seemed that by the end people were just showing up for this mythical scene they'd heard so much about.follower types(oh boy)who really didn't even know any of the music.Drunken frat boys and girls and scenemakers and.....it just got too big and in certain ways phony....but the music was always real.
You know the dead have a website and an online store with tons of great music for sale.They have a mail order series called 'dick's picks' which are unedited full shows released on cd from their own vault master tapes.There's lots of garcia band stuff there too. Built to last came out in '89 2 years after 'in the dark' which had 'touch of grey' on it,which was such a hit and which is what caused the popularity explosion that in my opinion lead to all the stuff I didn't like.anyway,btl was not a great record but the jerry songs are classics.Built to last,Foolish heart,and standing on the moon are great and are the highlights of btl.
'carve your name,carve your name in ice and wind.never look,never look around the bend,or check a weather chart.do everything within you that you feel to be your part,but never give your love my friend,unto a foolish heart,unto a foolish heart' or something like that.
If you like dylan then it's definately worth it to check out his new one'time out of mind' different then anything you've heard him do and it's a real creeper.It grows on you.It's actually a haunting experience but brilliant.The song 'not dark yet' almost made me cry as much as when frosty the snowman melted.
I have heard the new Dylan album - a guy I know from work is a huge Dylan fan and taped it for me. [I will make sure to tell him about 'Alabama Getaway', 'Silvio', and 'Friend of the Devil' (although everyone plays that now!)] I have a real hard time with Dylan's voice now, so I wasn't that crazy about the album as a whole, but I thought that the songs were great. (Especially the one you mentioned, by the way - 'Not Dark Yet'.)
BTW, bftb, I am used to being one of the youngest people on this forum (and I am 41...), but sounds like you are quite a bit younger. Also, you said earlier that you had let it slip whether you were a premie or ex-premie, but I still couldn't figure it out from your post. I'd be curious to know when you got knowledge, and how you feel about it now. If you care to say so, that is.
I received knowledge from M in '90.Really enjoyed practising for awhile and liked going to see videos.I wouldn't call myself a premie or an expremie.I haven't gone to a program or anything since'91.I still practice every now and then.As you can deduce my life in the premie world lasted less then a year.I still like M as the prankster character that he is.A drinker?big deal;i'm no angel either.Now,I can certainly understand that the people who feel the strongest are the ones from the pre-90's days.I can see all the pain that's been felt and I believe it's real.For the time that I was involved there really weren't any more head trips then you'd find around anything that is trying to organize itself.There were no ashrams,even the word premie didn't exist.
I actually had a positive experience overall.It's just that through it all I'd have these doubts and they were $ based.Funny moment when I was sitting with an accountant doing my tax returns and the charitable contributions aspect came up,and it hit me just how much money i'd donated.Let me be clear;noone coerced me;I wanted to give,but when i saw it all added up i took a step back and said"whoa,what the f... am i giving all this money away for?He's rich anyway,I'm not.I need it more,and if you're gonna turn off the bliss tap cuz I stop donating then so be it"
Anyway that was just one aspect;I guess mainly I just drifted away.
What do I think now?Well I do think that there is 'something' going on with M.More then meets the eye-I had all kinds of (and I hate trying to articulate any of these vaguaries)experiences around him(even a pre-meeting him darshan dream,although i only learned that you call it a darshan dream from this site)It's sort of like my take on him is that he very well may be some kind of master of some experience;but he's a decadent master.No big deal and I actually find it entertaining.The thing is that even though he's a master;he's still a human and sorry but I guess I'm a rebel like lucifer cuz I can't prostrate to another human;God or not.And if he didn't like my ego then he shouldn't have created it.
I do feel very badly for the people who feel/were hurt.Very hurt.And the worst part is that M will probably never adress your pain.That sucks.He really should,because he certainly did ask you to give up everything for him,and he did tell you he was god.Even if he thinks that he was misunderstood and it was all taken too literally he should then at least try and articulate that.Something.anything.He should take responsibility for all the demands he made on you.I suppose it's not good enough just to stop making the demands;at least explain why you did things that way in the first place.
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Date: Sat, Dec 20, 1997 at 23:30:37 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: bftb
Subject: Re: off topic:musicLord of the Unicorns (Re: Lord of the Unicorns)
Message:
I received knowledge from M in '90.Really enjoyed practising for awhile and liked going to see videos.I wouldn't call myself a premie or an expremie.I haven't gone to a program or anything since'91.I still practice every now and then.As you can deduce my life in the premie world lasted less then a year.I still like M as the prankster character that he is.A drinker?big deal;i'm no angel either.Now,I can certainly understand that the people who feel the strongest are the ones from the pre-90's days.I can see all the pain that's been felt and I believe it's real.For the time that I was involved there really weren't any more head trips then you'd find around anything that is trying to organize itself.There were no ashrams,even the word premie didn't exist.
I actually had a positive experience overall.It's just that through it all I'd have these doubts and they were $ based.Funny moment when I was sitting with an accountant doing my tax returns and the charitable contributions aspect came up,and it hit me just how much money i'd donated.Let me be clear;noone coerced me;I wanted to give,but when i saw it all added up i took a step back and said'whoa,what the f... am i giving all this money away for?He's rich anyway,I'm not.I need it more,and if you're gonna turn off the bliss tap cuz I stop donating then so be it'
Anyway that was just one aspect;I guess mainly I just drifted away.
What do I think now?Well I do think that there is 'something' going on with M.More then meets the eye-I had all kinds of (and I hate trying to articulate any of these vaguaries)experiences around him(even a pre-meeting him darshan dream,although i only learned that you call it a darshan dream from this site)It's sort of like my take on him is that he very well may be some kind of master of some experience;but he's a decadent master.No big deal and I actually find it entertaining.The thing is that even though he's a master;he's still a human and sorry but I guess I'm a rebel like lucifer cuz I can't prostrate to another human;God or not.And if he didn't like my ego then he shouldn't have created it.
I do feel very badly for the people who feel/were hurt.Very hurt.And the worst part is that M will probably never adress your pain.That sucks.He really should,because he certainly did ask you to give up everything for him,and he did tell you he was god.Even if he thinks that he was misunderstood and it was all taken too literally he should then at least try and articulate that.Something.anything.He should take responsibility for all the demands he made on you.I suppose it's not good enough just to stop making the demands;at least explain why you did things that way in the first place.
Hey bftb- thanks for answering my question (and very eloquently too.) It is interesting to hear from someone who got knowledge in the 90's. I don't think there is anyone else who posts on here that got knowledge that recently, so I really appreciate your insights. It was a whole different trip back in the seventies (as I'm sure you've figured out by now), but am afraid that whole old trip might be starting up again.
Anyway,
Thanks,
from Katie
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Date: Sun, Dec 21, 1997 at 02:13:28 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: katie
Subject: Re: Lord of the Unicorns
Message:
Off topic!!!?
That'll really bug anon the Archiver. (With a name like Jerome, no wonder he wants to stay anonymous).
The Dead never really made a decent studio album (Garcia said so himself) But I really liked 'Wake of the Flood' and some tracks on 'Mars Hotel' - 'Unbroken Chain' comes to mind.
BTW, do you remember the funny lettering on the album cover? It actually reads 'UGLY RUMORS' if you look at it in a mirror.
- Mili
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Date: Sun, Dec 21, 1997 at 02:25:46 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email:
To: Mili
Subject: Re: Lord of the Unicorns
Message:
Off topic!!!?
That'll really bug anon the Archiver. (With a name like Jerome, no wonder he wants to stay anonymous).
The Dead never really made a decent studio album (Garcia said so himself) But I really liked 'Wake of the Flood' and some tracks on 'Mars Hotel' - 'Unbroken Chain' comes to mind.
BTW, do you remember the funny lettering on the album cover? It actually reads 'UGLY RUMORS' if you look at it in a mirror.
- Mili
Yeah, off topic. Too bad. (Jerome is , I think, from St. Jerome, patron of librarians. Also, Jerry Garcia's first name was Jerome, FYI.
Anyway, I think "Wake of the Flood" is the best Dead studio album, as a whole. I like every song on it - can't say that about any other album. (I could never get into that whole live concert tape thing.) I do like Mars Hotel a lot too, especially "Unbroken Chain", as you mentioned, and "Pride of Cucamonga". But I think "Unbroken Chain" is really subversive, Mili! It helped me a lot when I was trying to leave GMJ. So maybe we hear a different meaning in it:
listening for the secret
searching for the sound
but I could only hear the preacher
and the baying of his hounds
throw you down the line boy
drop you for a loss
ride you out on a cold cold railroad
and nail you to a cross
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Date: Sun, Dec 21, 1997 at 02:48:44 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Katie
Subject: Re: Lord of the Unicorns
Message:
Well, we do seem to interpret it differently - the words that you wrote just remind me of the 'hell and brimstone' Bible Bangers.
Yet, the music itself (and the Dead were into experimentation with atonal and minimmalistic music) remind me of the inner sounds.
Hey, 'China Doll' is nice, too!
- Mili
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Date: Sun, Dec 21, 1997 at 02:53:23 (EST)
Poster: katie - totally off topic
Email:
To: mili
Subject: Re: Lord of the Unicorns
Message:
Off topic!!!?
That'll really bug anon the Archiver. (With a name like Jerome, no wonder he wants to stay anonymous).
The Dead never really made a decent studio album (Garcia said so himself) But I really liked 'Wake of the Flood' and some tracks on 'Mars Hotel' - 'Unbroken Chain' comes to mind.
BTW, do you remember the funny lettering on the album cover? It actually reads 'UGLY RUMORS' if you look at it in a mirror.
- Mili
Yeah, off topic. Too bad. (Jerome is , I think, from St. Jerome, patron of librarians. Also, Jerry Garcia's first name was Jerome, FYI.
Anyway, I think 'Wake of the Flood' is the best Dead studio album, as a whole. I like every song on it - can't say that about any other album. (I could never get into that whole live concert tape thing.) I do like Mars Hotel a lot too, especially 'Unbroken Chain', as you mentioned, and 'Pride of Cucamonga'. But I think 'Unbroken Chain' is really subversive, Mili! It helped me a lot when I was trying to leave GMJ. So maybe we hear a different meaning in it:
listening for the secret
searching for the sound
but I could only hear the preacher
and the baying of his hounds
throw you down the line boy
drop you for a loss
ride you out on a cold cold railroad
and nail you to a cross
I forgot to say that I never looked at the Mars Hotel album cover in a mirror - and I just gave all my Dead albums away to one of my student workers, too (I am replacing them with CDs) . I really liked the picture on the BACK of the Mars Hotel album cover - it was my favorite of all the Dead's album covers.
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Date: Sun, Dec 21, 1997 at 02:58:51 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: katie - totally off topic
Subject: Re: Lord of the Unicorns
Message:
listening for the secret
searching for the sound
See what I mean?
- Mili
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Date: Sun, Dec 21, 1997 at 03:04:48 (EST)
Poster: Katie off topic totally
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Mili
Subject: Re: Lord of the Unicorns
Message:
Well, we do seem to interpret it differently - the words that you wrote just remind me of the 'hell and brimstone' Bible Bangers.
Yet, the music itself (and the Dead were into experimentation with atonal and minimmalistic music) remind me of the inner sounds.
Hey, 'China Doll' is nice, too!
- Mili
Dear Mili - my cat sat on my mouse and reprogrammed my keyboard (no kidding - it has happened before). But back to normal now. You said that "Unbroken Chain" could be interpreted as "hell (fire) and brimstone", but I took it to mean something else. It's the context that I was in when listening to it. I can't say anything about the music, because I am not a musician (that's a Phil Lesh song, though - did you know that he had perfect pitch?). I am not too crazy about "China Doll", but really like "Scarlet Begonias".
BTW, I heard inner music before I received knowledge (drug-induced, and maybe in the wrong ear, but still very beautiful), but nothing afterwards.
P.S. Too bad CD is not here - he would like this conversation.
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Date: Sun, Dec 21, 1997 at 03:08:05 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email:
To: Mili
Subject: Re: Lord of the Unicorns
Message:
listening for the secret
searching for the sound
See what I mean?
- Mili
But I could only hear the preacher
And the baying of his hounds.
That's what happened to me.
- Katie
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Date: Sun, Dec 21, 1997 at 03:11:37 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: milivcheerful.com
To: Katie
Subject: Re: Lord of the Unicorns
Message:
listening for the secret
searching for the sound
See what I mean?
- Mili
But I could only hear the preacher
And the baying of his hounds.
That's what happened to me.
- Katie
Katie, pick up a CD of Steve Miller Band's Greatest Hits!
- Mili
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Date: Sun, Dec 21, 1997 at 03:18:39 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email:
To: Mili
Subject: Re: Lord of the Unicorns
Message:
listening for the secret
searching for the sound
See what I mean?
- Mili
But I could only hear the preacher
And the baying of his hounds.
That's what happened to me.
- Katie
Katie, pick up a CD of Steve Miller Band's Greatest Hits!
- Mili
Mili - I am sorry, but I don't LIKE the Steve Miller Band very much. Everybody covers "Fly like an Eagle", and I never even liked the original version. I cannot even think of any of their other songs right now.
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Date: Sun, Dec 21, 1997 at 03:19:45 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Katie
Subject: Re: Lord of the Unicorns
Message:
OR,
get 'Wildflowers' by Tom Petty.
:=)
- Mili
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Date: Sun, Dec 21, 1997 at 03:24:59 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email:
To: Mili
Subject: Re: Lord of the Unicorns
Message:
OR,
get 'Wildflowers' by Tom Petty.
:=)
- Mili
I think we have a tape of it somewhere, or I will borrow it. I promise. I do have a tape of Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers's greatest hits and my song is "Into the Great Wide Open". Cynical but true.
BTW, Mili, I bet it is Sunday morning in Croatia, and it is very late on Saturday night here (Central Standard Time). Just to let you know I'm fading fast. Too old to stay up all night anymore...
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Date: Sun, Dec 21, 1997 at 03:27:25 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Katie
Subject: Re: Lord of the Unicorns
Message:
Good night, Katie, and Good Morning when you wake up!
- Mili
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Date: Sun, Dec 21, 1997 at 03:34:59 (EST)
Poster: Katie totally off topic
Email:
To: Mili
Subject: Re: Lord of the Unicorns
Message:
Good night, Katie, and Good Morning when you wake up!
- Mili
Thank you very much, Mili. I hope it is.
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Date: Sun, Dec 21, 1997 at 13:36:41 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Katie off topic totally
Subject: Re: Lord of the Unicorns
Message:
Well, we do seem to interpret it differently - the words that you wrote just remind me of the 'hell and brimstone' Bible Bangers.
Yet, the music itself (and the Dead were into experimentation with atonal and minimmalistic music) remind me of the inner sounds.
Hey, 'China Doll' is nice, too!
- Mili
Dear Mili - my cat sat on my mouse and reprogrammed my keyboard (no kidding - it has happened before). But back to normal now. You said that 'Unbroken Chain' could be interpreted as 'hell (fire) and brimstone', but I took it to mean something else. It's the context that I was in when listening to it. I can't say anything about the music, because I am not a musician (that's a Phil Lesh song, though - did you know that he had perfect pitch?). I am not too crazy about 'China Doll', but really like 'Scarlet Begonias'.
BTW, I heard inner music before I received knowledge (drug-induced, and maybe in the wrong ear, but still very beautiful), but nothing afterwards.
P.S. Too bad CD is not here - he would like this conversation.
Katie, did you ever go to the beach and put a big seashell to your ear? Well, now I'm letting 'the cat out of the bag' maybe - but that's the same kind of music I hear in meditation. (No drugs involved!)
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Date: Thurs, Dec 18, 1997 at 21:23:21 (EST)
Poster: David Simpkiss
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: Everyone
Subject: Nothing less than God
Message:
Here are just a few examples of some things Maharaji has said to illustrate who he was.
"I am not just a humble servant."
"I'm going to make the Ramayana look like Noddy." (Noddy is a children's story book.)
"I could make everyone in the world turn blue
and float three feet off the ground if I wanted to."
"Don't you realise I could have turned the universe round to compensate." Said to his premie driver when the driver refused to turn the car round on a motorway in England when Maharaji asked him to.
"Which letter do you want to know about? Don't you realise, I know everything?" Said to a premie who questioned Maharaji's instruction to shred hundreds of unopened letters addressed to him. He said this AFTER they were shredded.
"That Krishna costume is not just a costume."
"God is a Father. And the child is crawling towards the fire and is almost in the fire and if God were to just watch, would He be a Father? No, He would be something else but not a Father."
"Time is coming soon, when the world will see a great strange thing happening. Many far out things happening. And people will see who is God and not only that but they will know God exists." Written from memory from satsangs he gave in 1971 and 1972.
Here are a few examples of some of the more bizarre things Maharaji has said:
"Every time you think you kick Maharaji in the teeth."
"By 1982 some premies will know why I came so young."
"The animals are suffering Hell."
(I guess this is normal Hindu belief though)
"If I hadn't suffered that ulcer then all the world would have been destroyed by nuclear war."
"They are like flies round a dung heap."
"All those people walking around with their mean little thoughts." Maharaji talking about the general public.
Some people wonder why ex-premies feel so cheated. It is because we were for a long time given to understand that Maharaji was God. So we gave our lives and our love to him. The belief that he was God gave many people hope in a dark world. I don't hate Maharaji and sometimes I wish he WAS God. Alas, this is not so.
Upon realising we have been deceived by a God imposter, we have every right to voice our opinions on the matter and to help others who might also be deceived.
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Date: Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 06:18:49 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: David Simpkiss
Subject: Re: Nothing less than God
Message:
Jeez, David, do you realize what kind of idiots you are actually making yourself out to be?
People are probably saying, 'Serves them well for believing he was God in the first place.'
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Date: Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 09:04:24 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Mili
Subject: Re: Nothing less than God
Message:
Jeez, David, do you realize what kind of idiots you are actually making yourself out to be?
People are probably saying, 'Serves them well for believing he was God in the first place.'
Dear Mili - We WERE idiots for believing Maharaji was god. No excuses except youth, inexperience, gullibility, and a desire for it to be true. It's hard to fathom, isn't it?
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Date: Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 09:49:57 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Katie
Subject: Re: Nothing less than God
Message:
Jeez, David, do you realize what kind of idiots you are actually making yourself out to be?
People are probably saying, 'Serves them well for believing he was God in the first place.'
Dear Mili - We WERE idiots for believing Maharaji was god. No excuses except youth, inexperience, gullibility, and a desire for it to be true. It's hard to fathom, isn't it?
Well, people believe all kinds of funny things - that improving the sophistication and destructive power of weapons will vouchsafe peace, that declarations, summits and charters will bring human rights to everyone in the world and stop the depletion of the ozone layer and global warming, that capitalism is humane and the best of all possible social systems, that McDonalds' hamburgers are delicious, that doctors will make you live forever, that psychiatrists try to help you out of altruistic reasons and not for the money, that you will go to heaven if you are a good boy or girl, etc., etc.
We live in a strange world.
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Date: Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 10:31:48 (EST)
Poster: Sir David
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: Mili
Subject: Re: Nothing less than God
Message:
I am the first to admit that I'm an idiot Mili. But then a person shouldn't try and take advantage of the mentally impaired, should they.
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Date: Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 10:58:49 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email:
To: Sir David
Subject: Re: Nothing less than God
Message:
I am the first to admit that I'm an idiot Mili. But then a person shouldn't try and take advantage of the mentally impaired, should they.
And yet, you can't deny the bliss you felt in meditation, and I can't deny the joy and fun I had at the festivals, listening to Maharaji and seeing his smiling face.
I remember a festival in Geneva - it was Guru Puja, 1976 or 7. He was in the Krishna outfit with a mala, and actually smiling and shedding tears of happiness while we were singing Arti to him. I have a photo of that.
You know, you feel you have an obligation to tell people that you were somehow 'ripped off'. Well, I feel an obligation to tell people that I had the best times of my life with Maharaji, and that he DIDN'T rip me off.
How come that bugs you so much?
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Date: Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 12:02:48 (EST)
Poster: Sir David
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: Mili
Subject: Re: Nothing less than God
Message:
I never have said that it bugs me that you've had a good experience Mili. But you are in a minority. I remember attending a week long Hans Jayanti festival in Orlando. Maharaji danced nearly every night and premies were going wild. I am afraid I felt absolutely nothing the whole time I was there. I thought there was something wrong with me.
At the end of the program, initiator Ira Woods said that he couldn't imagine anyone coming to that festival and not feeling anything. That made me feel even more ridiculous and like an alien.
I didn't tell the throngs of blissed out premies that I had actually found the whole week long festival an ordeal. It is only now, on the net, that I am admitting to such things.
I would not critisise and it does not bug me if people get off on these Maharaji festivals etc. But for me, it is way outside my realm of experience.
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Date: Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 14:11:33 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email: joger02@aol.com
To: David Simpkiss
Subject: Re: Nothing less than God
Message:
David, it's so amazing to read those statements, many of them I remember now that you repeat them, but where did you find these things? Do you have old magazines, tapes etc.? If so, I think it would be great to provide more quotes, perhaps to be included permanently on the web site. I have always thought it was important to let people know what M has said in the past, and no longer wants people to know about, especially quotes like you posted, as well as the many satsangs he gave telling the premies that we must SURRENDER to Guru Maharaji and other such blatant devotional stuff.
Also, I feel a lot like you do. I always WISHED the fairy tale could be true. Unfortunately, I wasted a lot of my live trying to believe in that fairy tale and I'm a lot better off knowing the truth.
I would also feel a lot better about M if he would just come clean. If he would at least address the fact that some people got hurt in his cult, make it very clear to everyone in no uncertain terms that, despite the excesses of the past, he is NOT god and does NOT want devotion or money or gratitude from the people who receive knowledge, I would certainly feel a lot better about him. You know, I really did love him for years and I would like to think he has at least some integrity. But, not evidence of that yet.
I also felt embarrassed for many years to tell people I know that I actually was devoted to some guy who claimed to be god and that I kissed his feet on a regular basis. Now that he's apparently doing the darshan thing in a big way again, it starts to once again to be the source of some embarrassment.
Thanks again, David, the things you posted are very helpful to me.
JW
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Date: Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 14:22:27 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Sir David
Subject: Re: Nothing less than God
Message:
I never have said that it bugs me that you've had a good experience Mili. But you are in a minority. I remember attending a week long Hans Jayanti festival in Orlando. Maharaji danced nearly every night and premies were going wild. I am afraid I felt absolutely nothing the whole time I was there. I thought there was something wrong with me.
At the end of the program, initiator Ira Woods said that he couldn't imagine anyone coming to that festival and not feeling anything. That made me feel even more ridiculous and like an alien.
I didn't tell the throngs of blissed out premies that I had actually found the whole week long festival an ordeal. It is only now, on the net, that I am admitting to such things.
I would not critisise and it does not bug me if people get off on these Maharaji festivals etc. But for me, it is way outside my realm of experience.
Fair enough Dave. Thanks for acknowledging my experience.
I can accept what you just said, and I don't feel the need to impose anything on you, let alone to condemn or criticise you for anything.
- Mili
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Date: Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 14:43:47 (EST)
Poster: Sir David
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: JW
Subject: Re: Nothing less than God
Message:
All those quotes are from memory. Certain things Maharaji has said have stuck in my mind over the years. The quotes about turning the universe round and turning everybody blue etc were relayed to some of us English premies by Glen Whittaker who used to be general secretary or whatever, here in Britain. Maharaji would say a lot of things to "Mr Glen" and he'd tell us.
I do have some old seventies satsang tapes but I can't bear to listen to them, most of the time. Bye the way, it was the quote about Maharaji saving the world by having an ulcer that really got me doubting the whole thing.
It is not good that Maharaji tried to convince premies that he was God and then just slipped away and hoped everybody would forget about it later.
I doubt that he will ever come clean. He's misled too many people. He daren't face his accusers now. If I'd had a wonderful experience as a premie I guess I'd feel different. But it was a most heavy and oppressive and repressive trip. I lost count of the number of relationships I abandoned because of Maharaji. Some of which would have resulted in a happy marriage. There was one girl, I still think about, her name was Katie and we met on a coach going to Rome from London. We hit it off very well and truly loved each other. But we had both applied to re-enter the ashram again and so we felt too guilty about our close relationship. If you're there Katie, write to me because we've got a lot of catching up to do!
Yes we were idiots, but we were brainwashed. We didn't know what was happening to us. Maharaji will not be able to do all of that again with another generation of young people.
úàWE WON'T LET HIM!
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Date: Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 15:13:43 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Sir David
Subject: Re: Nothing less than God
Message:
All those quotes are from memory. Certain things Maharaji has said have stuck in my mind over the years. The quotes about turning the universe round and turning everybody blue etc were relayed to some of us English premies by Glen Whittaker who used to be general secretary or whatever, here in Britain. Maharaji would say a lot of things to 'Mr Glen' and he'd tell us.
I do have some old seventies satsang tapes but I can't bear to listen to them, most of the time. Bye the way, it was the quote about Maharaji saving the world by having an ulcer that really got me doubting the whole thing.
It is not good that Maharaji tried to convince premies that he was God and then just slipped away and hoped everybody would forget about it later.
I doubt that he will ever come clean. He's misled too many people. He daren't face his accusers now. If I'd had a wonderful experience as a premie I guess I'd feel different. But it was a most heavy and oppressive and repressive trip. I lost count of the number of relationships I abandoned because of Maharaji. Some of which would have resulted in a happy marriage. There was one girl, I still think about, her name was Katie and we met on a coach going to Rome from London. We hit it off very well and truly loved each other. But we had both applied to re-enter the ashram again and so we felt too guilty about our close relationship. If you're there Katie, write to me because we've got a lot of catching up to do!
Yes we were idiots, but we were brainwashed. We didn't know what was happening to us. Maharaji will not be able to do all of that again with another generation of young people.
úàWE WON'T LET HIM!
I thought joining an ashram was your own decision - it wasn't mandatory. If you really liked that girl, why did you join the ashram? Bachelor, householder, or just Freewheeling Frank, always was a viable option.
I didn't join the ashram. I kind of figured the real ashram was inside of me.
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Date: Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 19:58:01 (EST)
Poster: Sir David
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: Mili
Subject: Re: Nothing less than God
Message:
You were obviously not made to feel guilty and that your life was worthless by staying out of the ashram then. This happened to me and many others.
Believe me, in London there were a lot of heavy trips going around at that time and I tried to move back into the ashram because I thought it was the only right thing to do and not because I wanted to - I didn't.
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Date: Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 20:07:55 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email:
To: Sir David
Subject: Re: Nothing less than God
Message:
You were obviously not made to feel guilty and that your life was worthless by staying out of the ashram then. This happened to me and many others.
Believe me, in London there were a lot of heavy trips going around at that time and I tried to move back into the ashram because I thought it was the only right thing to do and not because I wanted to - I didn't.
OK, man. I believe you. Do you believe me that I believe you on that?
There were ashrams happening in the (Ex) Yugoslavia, too. Can you imagine that? I don't really know what went on there, except that people meditated a lot. Also, when I was on leave from the Army once, I went to an ashram in Ljubljana, and I was glad that those premies were serious about meditation. I had a really poignant experience of Light which I remember even to this day, WITHOUT doing the Light technique.
But, I can imagine things could have been weird with the 'no-sex' rules. You can repress that thing only so far. That kind of tension happens in monasteries all the time. People got married real fast after the ashrams were dissolved, though!
- Mili
- Mili
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Date: Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 20:27:49 (EST)
Poster: Sir David
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: Mili
Subject: Re: Nothing less than God
Message:
____Yes I believe that you believe me. Regarding the no sex in ashrams, it was inhuman. I've said more on re-sex above.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 18, 1997 at 09:23:06 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Everyone
Subject: Premies posting on the Net?
Message:
It's my impression that many - although not all - premies have recently been told that Maharaji doesn't want premies talking about knowledge on the Internet. I'd be interested to know why premies such as op, Mili, etc. are still posting on here. Special permission, different instuctions, never heard the request to stop posting?
I don't want anyone to stop posting, I'd just like to know why it's ok for premies to post on here, but apparently not ok for them to have their own web site.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 18, 1997 at 09:45:16 (EST)
Poster: Mike
Email: InMyMindAnand.com
To: Katie
Subject: Re: Premies posting on the Net?
Message:
It's my impression that many - although not all - premies have recently been told that Maharaji doesn't want premies talking about knowledge on the Internet. I'd be interested to know why premies such as op, Mili, etc. are still posting on here. Special permission, different instuctions, never heard the request to stop posting?
I don't want anyone to stop posting, I'd just like to know why it's ok for premies to post on here, but apparently not ok for them to have their own web site.
That's what I adore about you Katie... your wonderful logic. Also, I'd like to know about a phrase that's been bugging me for about 20 years... "Being in my mind!" As though being out of my mind is acceptable. Maybe premies need to be in that state to buy all of the crap pushed on them???
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Date: Thurs, Dec 18, 1997 at 09:58:32 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Mike
Subject: Re: Premies posting on the Net?
Message:
That's what I adore about you Katie... your wonderful logic. Also, I'd like to know about a phrase that's been bugging me for about 20 years... 'Being in my mind!' As though being out of my mind is acceptable. Maybe premies need to be in that state to buy all of the crap pushed on them???
Thanks very much for the compliment, Mike (I hope you weren't being sarcastic!), although one doesn't need to be all that logical to ask that question. Seriously, I would like to know the answer, if there is one.
I have gotten the impression that "in your mind" is verboten these days. CD did use it the other day, but only as a joke, I think. I believe the correct current phrase is "not following your heart."
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Date: Thurs, Dec 18, 1997 at 10:26:53 (EST)
Poster: Rick
Email: rtaraday@hotmail.com
To: Katie
Subject: Re: Premies posting on the Net?
Message:
It's my impression that many - although not all - premies have recently been told that Maharaji doesn't want premies talking about knowledge on the Internet. I'd be interested to know why premies such as op, Mili, etc. are still posting on here. Special permission, different instuctions, never heard the request to stop posting?
I don't want anyone to stop posting, I'd just like to know why it's ok for premies to post on here, but apparently not ok for them to have their own web site.
Good point, Katie. I keep wondering that myself, but have refrained from asking because it's such a dumb rule. It's just that those pesky premies are so damn annoying with their unique and unbrainwashed experiences.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 18, 1997 at 10:37:09 (EST)
Poster: Mike
Email: bigguy32@juno.com
To: Katie
Subject: Re: Premies posting on the Net?
Message:
That's what I adore about you Katie... your wonderful logic. Also, I'd like to know about a phrase that's been bugging me for about 20 years... 'Being in my mind!' As though being out of my mind is acceptable. Maybe premies need to be in that state to buy all of the crap pushed on them???
Thanks very much for the compliment, Mike (I hope you weren't being sarcastic!), although one doesn't need to be all that logical to ask that question. Seriously, I would like to know the answer, if there is one.
I have gotten the impression that 'in your mind' is verboten these days. CD did use it the other day, but only as a joke, I think. I believe the correct current phrase is 'not following your heart.'
No, no sarcastic bones here. I've been tickled with some of your questions and comments.
"Not following your heart." It's interesting that in pier groups, there always seems to be a phrase of dissapproval or control. If you want to be part of our spiffy group then... "Don't be in your mind," "Follow your heart,""Do the masters true will,""That's not Microsoft Policy" etc.
Over the years I've become very ancy about groups that try control me using shame and blame in any form.
I answered your other question in a round about way down with brian and op's discussion. In summary of that question... why are premies here, I think we need to preserve the safety of having premies come here to discuss their points of view. I would rather have them here now than have them coming back after 20 years hopefully and complaining about whatever happened to them. I may not agree with them however, it helps me decide what I do agree with as a result of the discussion.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 18, 1997 at 12:40:52 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email:
To: Katie
Subject: Re: Premies posting on the Net?
Message:
Well, first of all, I've never actually heard him give such an agya. But let's assume he did say that premies should avoid these pointless 'discussions'. An agya is not an order that should be mindlessly carried out. To me, that's just solid, good advice - because I've lost a lot of time talking to you and I don't think it really served any purpose - I mean your minds are already made up. And my Internet connection is not really all that cheap. So maybe I'll just wise up and shut my big mouth from now on.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 18, 1997 at 15:28:26 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Mili
Subject: Re: Premies posting on the Net?
Message:
Well, first of all, I've never actually heard him give such an agya. But let's assume he did say that premies should avoid these pointless 'discussions'. An agya is not an order that should be mindlessly carried out. To me, that's just solid, good advice - because I've lost a lot of time talking to you and I don't think it really served any purpose - I mean your minds are already made up. And my Internet connection is not really all that cheap. So maybe I'll just wise up and shut my big mouth from now on.
I didn't mean for you to stop posting on here, Mili. I just asked the question, which you answered (thanks). Also, I think "lost a lot of time" and "served no purpose" are debatable - they depend on what your purpose is for posting on the forum. Only you can answer that one.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 18, 1997 at 16:42:55 (EST)
Poster: d@vid
Email: d@vid
To: Mili
Subject: Bye, bye Masher (Re: Premies posting on the Net?)
Message:
Masher Mili came out from under his stone and spake: So maybe I'll just wise up and shut my big mouth from now on.
Promises, promises...
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Date: Thurs, Dec 18, 1997 at 22:57:11 (EST)
Poster: Brian
Email:
To: Katie
Subject: Re: Premies posting on the Net?
Message:
Well, first of all, I've never actually heard him give such an agya. But let's assume he did say that premies should avoid these pointless 'discussions'. An agya is not an order that should be mindlessly carried out. To me, that's just solid, good advice - because I've lost a lot of time talking to you and I don't think it really served any purpose - I mean your minds are already made up. And my Internet connection is not really all that cheap. So maybe I'll just wise up and shut my big mouth from now on.
I didn't mean for you to stop posting on here, Mili. I just asked the question, which you answered (thanks). Also, I think 'lost a lot of time' and 'served no purpose' are debatable - they depend on what your purpose is for posting on the forum. Only you can answer that one.
[LAUGH] Mili makes this statement every few months, Katie. Sometimes it's a threat. Sometimes it's a promise. You don't have to ask him to stay. Like the other premies, he has nowhere else to go now, due to MJ's non-agya. He's not about to take MJ's "solid, good advice". Sometimes he stops posting for a few weeks, but then he storms back with something like his Pus Post a few weeks back.
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Date: Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 01:12:51 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email:
To: Brian
Subject: Re: Premies posting on the Net?
Message:
Well, first of all, I've never actually heard him give such an agya. But let's assume he did say that premies should avoid these pointless 'discussions'. An agya is not an order that should be mindlessly carried out. To me, that's just solid, good advice - because I've lost a lot of time talking to you and I don't think it really served any purpose - I mean your minds are already made up. And my Internet connection is not really all that cheap. So maybe I'll just wise up and shut my big mouth from now on.
I didn't mean for you to stop posting on here, Mili. I just asked the question, which you answered (thanks). Also, I think 'lost a lot of time' and 'served no purpose' are debatable - they depend on what your purpose is for posting on the forum. Only you can answer that one.
[LAUGH] Mili makes this statement every few months, Katie. Sometimes it's a threat. Sometimes it's a promise. You don't have to ask him to stay. Like the other premies, he has nowhere else to go now, due to MJ's non-agya. He's not about to take MJ's 'solid, good advice'. Sometimes he stops posting for a few weeks, but then he storms back with something like his Pus Post a few weeks back.
Aw, go and kiss your Penis, Brian.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 18, 1997 at 02:17:16 (EST)
Poster: David Simpkiss
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: Everyone
Subject: Those presences
Message:
Maharaji said something about presences on the Net who were confusing premies and aspirants. Has it occured to him that those presences are those people who once gave their lives to him out of love.
Maharaji, the compassionate and caring Lord of the Universe couldn't give a damn about the people who once spent years of their lives in humble service to him.
I am reminded of the Parable of the Lost Sheep in the Bible. Jesus told this parable to His disciples to illustrate the love He had for His devotees.
The good shepherd would search high and low for just one lost sheep and not rest until He found it. That parable always struck me as such a beautiful analogy of God's love.
How different to the complete indifference with which Maharaji sees those "presences on the Internet."
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Date: Thurs, Dec 18, 1997 at 02:58:44 (EST)
Poster: op
Email:
To: David Simpkiss
Subject: Re: Those presences
Message:
There was a woman who was caught in a torrential rain, and her house was almost completely engulfed in the flood that followed. She sat shivering on her rooftop for days. Finally, a man in a rowboat passed by. The man came close to her and offered to help her climb into the boat. 'No, thanks,' said the woman. 'God will provide for me.'
Another day passed, and another boat came by. Again she was offered a lift to safety, and again she said, 'No, God will take care of me.'
This happened one more time before the poor woman, exhausted, slipped into the water and drowned. When she got up to heaven, she was raging mad, and demanded to see God.
Once in front of the Presence, she screamed out, 'I believed in you all my life, and always thought you would take care of me! Why did you abandon me at the worst possible time?'
God simply said, 'What do you mean, abandon you? I sent three boats!'
(guess who told that story?)
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Date: Thurs, Dec 18, 1997 at 03:19:11 (EST)
Poster: David Simpkiss
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: op
Subject: Re: Those presences
Message:
There was a woman who was caught in a torrential rain, and her house was almost completely engulfed in the flood that followed. She sat shivering on her rooftop for days. Finally, a man in a rowboat passed by. The man came close to her and offered to help her climb into the boat. 'No, thanks,' said the woman. 'God will provide for me.'
Another day passed, and another boat came by. Again she was offered a lift to safety, and again she said, 'No, God will take care of me.'
This happened one more time before the poor woman, exhausted, slipped into the water and drowned. When she got up to heaven, she was raging mad, and demanded to see God.
Once in front of the Presence, she screamed out, 'I believed in you all my life, and always thought you would take care of me! Why did you abandon me at the worst possible time?'
God simply said, 'What do you mean, abandon you? I sent three boats!'
(guess who told that story?)Well OP, I wish you would use your correct name. Just what have you got to hide and of what are you afraid.
I have heard your analogy before and it does not get to the point of what my post says. I am talking to Maharaji's indifference to those presences on the net. I am not talking about God coming in the form of something else.
I am only talking about Maharaji, the person. I really don't think you grasped my point. Please read my original post again if you want to respond further.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 18, 1997 at 04:08:01 (EST)
Poster: op
Email:
To: David Simpkiss
Subject: Re: Those presences
Message:
Well OP, I wish you would use your correct name. Just what have you got
to hide and of what are you afraid.
Not fear, but I really cannot use my real name. Trust me on that one.
I have heard your analogy before and it does not get to the point of what my post says. I am talking to Maharaji's indifference to those presences on the net. I am not talking about God coming in the form of something else.
I am only talking about Maharaji, the person.
When a shepherd has forty sheep and one gets lost, I'm sure he'll have plenty of time to go and find it. When there are several hundred thousand, the technique for going after the lost ones has to be a bit different.
But, the real point is, we're not talking about sheep here. We're talking about human beings, with free will, who make conscious decisions - or are supposed to. What M always emphasizes (and has, oddly enough, since the days of Shri Hans) is that the doors are open. Despite the vegetable stories, despite all the other stuff - he has said: It's up to you. Remember '1000 years of peace - for people who want peace'?
Your choice, your decision.
I really don't think you grasped my point. Please read my original post again if you want to respond further.
Maybe I'm really dumb, but I think I did grasp your point, and what I meant to say by using that story is:
1- any analogy can be followed up by another analogy
2- M has not given up on anybody. He has not abandoned anybody. He is as available to you as he is to the most devoted currently practicing premie. You know how the message comes. If you want it, try stepping on board again. If you don't, you ARE just making noise on the web.
And anyone who has been at his events over the past two years knows that there have been some special messages for those who have recently decided to start practicing again.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 18, 1997 at 04:49:56 (EST)
Poster: Mr Ex
Email:
To: op
Subject: Re: Those presences
Message:
Here is a western _ not so _ fairy tale :
There are 2 women I know very well that have been abused by m’s instructors (a few years ago). They told me their stories with all details
These 2 guys are still amongst the SPAM and instructors (one of them full time, the other one having a special status).
One of them (abused woman) wrote a letter about it to PPR, and complained to Marolyn. Even though she was close enough to PPR’s family (doing ‘service’ regularily at the residence in Malibu), she never got to talk to him about it. Nor did she get any answer or any help. She finally left in total disgust.
Here is what I call taking or not taking responsibilities.
I am the boss in my company. If one of my employees would do anything like this, I know what I would do. So do you very likely.
What is so different with Mr PPR ? Food for thought.
Of course Mr PPR is totally indifferent to premies/ex-premies on the Net.
He doesn’t care for those working for him and living with him. Why would he care for others ?
The other one has so much guilt feelings that she never complained to PPR (yet). She is still trying to solve this problem. With professionnal help.
I also enjoy these nice Indian fairy tales. Nice dreams.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 18, 1997 at 06:58:53 (EST)
Poster: David Simpkiss
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: op
Subject: Re: Those presences
Message:
I cannot practise a falshood. I cannot go along with something which I believe is false.
I have never said that the meditation is of no value. I am talking about the following of Maharaji as me the devotee and he the Lord. I cannot in all conscience, do that. What I am more likely to do is make a noise on the net to express that falsehood.
From your story of the drowning woman, one could take almost any meaning. Perhaps Joe Whalen or Bill Burke and Jim Heller are God. It has no more meaning than a nice Indian story told long ago.
The parable of the lost sheep was to illustrate the feeling God has for His children. I do not see such a feeling expressed by Maharaji.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 18, 1997 at 08:43:00 (EST)
Poster: Brian
Email:
To: op
Subject: Re: Those presences
Message:
[Inane parable (Relating how we'll all face MJ after we die - He'll openly be God at that time, and we'll all be shit outa luck) deleted.]
(guess who told that story?)
And guess who believed it. And guess who repeated it. OP? Pragonampi? Pranam Gopi? p@l?
How awkward it would be for someone who relies on fables to be asked by premies at a program why she continues to post here in defiance of MJ's wishes. Confronted in person, who would she become? How would she evade? Would she refer to special agya that permits anonymous postings only? Would she tell a story? Would she have to choose between a service seat and the opportunity to be an online authority on MJ?
Does her browser fail to see postings from Brian? If she insults someone specific in a post, is it alright as long as she issues a blanket apology in the same post?
[Aside to JW:]
OP is one of those premies who I consider to be dishonest. I'm sorry if I offended anyone by accusing them of being dishonest.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 18, 1997 at 09:27:08 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: David Simpkiss
Subject: Re: Those presences
Message:
I cannot practise a falshood. I cannot go along with something which I believe is false.
I have never said that the meditation is of no value. I am talking about the following of Maharaji as me the devotee and he the Lord. I cannot in all conscience, do that. What I am more likely to do is make a noise on the net to express that falsehood.
Dear Sir David -
I and others are interested in what you have to say, so I encourage you to continue making a noise upon the Net (Either a joyful noise or a not-so-joyful one will do.)
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Date: Thurs, Dec 18, 1997 at 10:10:40 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email: joger02@aol.com
To: Mr Ex
Subject: Re: Those presences
Message:
Here is a western _ not so _ fairy tale :
There are 2 women I know very well that have been abused by m’s instructors (a few years ago). They told me their stories with all details
These 2 guys are still amongst the SPAM and instructors (one of them full time, the other one having a special status).
One of them (abused woman) wrote a letter about it to PPR, and complained to Marolyn. Even though she was close enough to PPR’s family (doing ‘service’ regularily at the residence in Malibu), she never got to talk to him about it. Nor did she get any answer or any help. She finally left in total disgust.
Here is what I call taking or not taking responsibilities.
I am the boss in my company. If one of my employees would do anything like this, I know what I would do. So do you very likely.
What is so different with Mr PPR ? Food for thought.
Of course Mr PPR is totally indifferent to premies/ex-premies on the Net.
He doesn’t care for those working for him and living with him. Why would he care for others ?
The other one has so much guilt feelings that she never complained to PPR (yet). She is still trying to solve this problem. With professionnal help.
I also enjoy these nice Indian fairy tales. Nice dreams.
Very interesting. Despite the many times ex-premies have pointed out that Maharaji has never had the basic humanity to take responsibility for ANYTHING, except all the "good stuff," and now you give another specific example, I am amazed that the premies have as yet to come up with even ONE example of him actually getting beyond his humongous ego and take some responsibility for these kinds of problems..
JW
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Date: Thurs, Dec 18, 1997 at 10:22:38 (EST)
Poster: Mike
Email: bigguy32@juno.com
To: Brian
Subject: Re: Those presences
Message:
[Inane parable (Relating how we'll all face MJ after we die - He'll openly be God at that time, and we'll all be shit outa luck) deleted.]
(guess who told that story?)
And guess who believed it. And guess who repeated it. OP? Pragonampi? Pranam Gopi? p@l?
How awkward it would be for someone who relies on fables to be asked by premies at a program why she continues to post here in defiance of MJ's wishes. Confronted in person, who would she become? How would she evade? Would she refer to special agya that permits anonymous postings only? Would she tell a story? Would she have to choose between a service seat and the opportunity to be an online authority on MJ?
Does her browser fail to see postings from Brian? If she insults someone specific in a post, is it alright as long as she issues a blanket apology in the same post?
[Aside to JW:]
OP is one of those premies who I consider to be dishonest. I'm sorry if I offended anyone by accusing them of being dishonest.
OK, up against the clown car! Spread'em, hands on the honker.
Sooooo, a christmas card and a fruit cake is not a possibility from op for you brian.
I like premies to post here reguardless of Agya or not. I want everyone to question authority to make sure that it's the authority that they really want to follow. I think that this forum provides an avenue for people to question safely without the possibility of compromise. We all have strong feelings about our positions with reguard to PPR however, we need to realize that this is a discussion that should help everyone, ex-premie as well as premie to make some life decisions. People will be turning to this site for help with loved ones that they think are in trouble with PPR. If we attack them... or anyone here... what will they think?
We should also agree to disagree. We also have the choice to accept or reject opinions without attacking one another. I'm guilty of this and I try my best to avoid it since it ruins an opportunity for me as well as others to work things through.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 18, 1997 at 10:43:42 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email:
To: David Simpkiss
Subject: Re: Those presences
Message:
I cannot practise a falshood. I cannot go along with something which I believe is false.
I have never said that the meditation is of no value. I am talking about the following of Maharaji as me the devotee and he the Lord. I cannot in all conscience, do that. What I am more likely to do is make a noise on the net to express that falsehood.
From your story of the drowning woman, one could take almost any meaning. Perhaps Joe Whalen or Bill Burke and Jim Heller are God. It has no more meaning than a nice Indian story told long ago.
The parable of the lost sheep was to illustrate the feeling God has for His children. I do not see such a feeling expressed by Maharaji.
So, this is what it's all about! I should have known it.
'JEEEZUS is my only Lord, and I have no other beside him...'
Well, you can have your Jesus, and still be a premie. It's no problem to me! Actually, I understood Jesus better by practising the Knowledge. Jesus was a Perfect Master, he spoke about this very same Knowledge, he had disciples,
and people just like you crucified him in the end.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 18, 1997 at 10:56:23 (EST)
Poster: John K.
Email:
To: David Simpkiss
Subject: Re: Those presences
Message:
I guess I will be the designated past master basher...
Again, this worship of a past master, jc, strikes me as absurd, and again a parable that seems to prove how wonderful and compassionate jc was. you know, jc also instructed his disciples to go into towns and only call on those people of the tribes of israel (jews), and not the heathen (gentiles). i don't have my bible handy so I can't quote you chapter and verse but it's there.
I know this is sort of beside the point, but it strikes me as kind of this whiny longing for a "real" master, like jc was.
when in fact, isn't it true that we don't want a master at all, or if David you are longing for a real master you should still be looking.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 18, 1997 at 11:46:27 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Mili
Subject: Re: Those presences
Message:
Jesus was a Perfect Master, he spoke about this very same Knowledge, he had disciples,
and people just like you crucified him in the end.
Ouch, Mili! Personal foul, unnecessary roughness! 15 yard penalty.
P.S. As far as I can tell, David was just QUOTING Jesus, which you have done on this forum too. He does not appear to be holding a revival meeting or passing out tracts.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 18, 1997 at 12:11:13 (EST)
Poster: John K.
Email:
To: David Simpkiss
Subject: Re: Those presences
Message:
Wellll, I'm not finished with my bashing...
Actually, I know what bothers me about that parable of the lost sheep. It's the idea that I am a sheep - helpless and dumb - and that I need someone to come - the master- to save me...from what? the predicament that the master - if it really is one with the Father - put me in in the first place. This is the parable that the christian/catholic church has used to build their empire. Teaching us that we are helpless and innocent and dumb.
Even cynical sarcastic David remembers this parable so fondly.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 18, 1997 at 12:16:14 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email: joger02@aol.com
To: David Simpkiss
Subject: Re: Those presences
Message:
Maharaji said something about presences on the Net who were confusing premies and aspirants. Has it occured to him that those presences are those people who once gave their lives to him out of love.
Maharaji, the compassionate and caring Lord of the Universe couldn't give a damn about the people who once spent years of their lives in humble service to him.
I am reminded of the Parable of the Lost Sheep in the Bible. Jesus told this parable to His disciples to illustrate the love He had for His devotees.
The good shepherd would search high and low for just one lost sheep and not rest until He found it. That parable always struck me as such a beautiful analogy of God's love.
How different to the complete indifference with which Maharaji sees those 'presences on the Internet.'
David, I think I also heard somewhere about the "presences" statement that Maharaj Ji made. Do you or anyone know any more specifics about that? Like where, when and in what context he said it?
JW
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Date: Thurs, Dec 18, 1997 at 14:25:28 (EST)
Poster: Sir David
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: JW
Subject: Re: Those presences
Message:
I don't know any more than you about this one. I jusr read in David's post that Maharaji had talked about presences on the net.
Regarding John Kay's comments; I guess since I was brought up at school as a Christian, such Christian teachings stick in my mind. I think a lot of the stories in the Bible are reletive to anyone who has considered God a possibility. The Prodigal Son is another of my favourites.
My mentioning Jesus was merely to illustrate how unlike Maharaji and Jesus are. Maharaji has in the past compared himself to Jesus and you may have heard his statement long ago when he spoke about Jesus, Budda and Krishna all coming in one body with more power than ever before.
I am not a Christian although I do think that Christianity has some good doctrines such as loving one another and forgiveness.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 18, 1997 at 14:39:00 (EST)
Poster: Michael
Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net
To: Mili
Subject: Re: Those presences
Message:
Mili wrote: "Jesus was a Perfect Master, he spoke about this very same Knowledge, he had disciples, and people just like you crucified him in the end."
I remember hearing that Jesus taught this knowledge, and when I was a Premie I believed it, and since the majority of Premies (and most people in general) have only a passing aquaintance with the Christian scriptures, it is easy to make such claims. But if you actually read them, there is nothing about those meditation techniques, and Logos, or the Word, is not the same thing as the Holy Name technique.
Saying Jesus taught the Knowledge of the Big M is crazy Gnostic Heretical talk, boy! ;-)
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Date: Thurs, Dec 18, 1997 at 15:52:56 (EST)
Poster: jerome
Email:
To: David Simpkiss
Subject: Re: Those presences
Message:
Maharaji said something about presences on the Net who were confusing premies and aspirants. Has it occured to him that those presences are those people who once gave their lives to him out of love.
Maharaji, the compassionate and caring Lord of the Universe couldn't give a damn about the people who once spent years of their lives in humble service to him.
I am reminded of the Parable of the Lost Sheep in the Bible. Jesus told this parable to His disciples to illustrate the love He had for His devotees.
The good shepherd would search high and low for just one lost sheep and not rest until He found it. That parable always struck me as such a beautiful analogy of God's love.
How different to the complete indifference with which Maharaji sees those 'presences on the Internet.'
As a non premie in 1990;I was lucky?to have been in attendance at one of maharaji's talks in san francisco.At the beginning of his talk a distressed womans voice rang out from the back of the hall:"Maharaji,help me" "please help me" "Maharaji" over and over getting progressively louder until everyone including maharaji noticed this hysterical person.she was quickly escorted out of the hall by security.maharaji remained as poised and unflinching as a rock star who doesn't miss a beat even when he can clearly see someone in the front row being carried out on a stretcher due to heat exhaustion or whatever.He just kept on with his talk,apparently unshaken by the incident.
I however was quite shaken by the little drama and wondered about what was up with that woman?I asked the premies whose guest i was and one of them said that the woman was familiar to them,that she was mentally unbalanced and kept calling elan vital/maharaji wanting money.I guess she came to his talk to make her 'request' for money in person.my premie friends seemed unconcerned but in my head i was thinking"unbalanced or not;she probably was a premie who gave lots of $$$ over the years and was now in financial difficulty and wanted help from the one to whom she'd given everything to" that incident made me very leery of the whole group.
Was anyone here at that talk who knows whatever happened to that person?Did she get help?
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Date: Thurs, Dec 18, 1997 at 15:53:29 (EST)
Poster: jerome
Email:
To: David Simpkiss
Subject: Re: Those presences
Message:
Maharaji said something about presences on the Net who were confusing premies and aspirants. Has it occured to him that those presences are those people who once gave their lives to him out of love.
Maharaji, the compassionate and caring Lord of the Universe couldn't give a damn about the people who once spent years of their lives in humble service to him.
I am reminded of the Parable of the Lost Sheep in the Bible. Jesus told this parable to His disciples to illustrate the love He had for His devotees.
The good shepherd would search high and low for just one lost sheep and not rest until He found it. That parable always struck me as such a beautiful analogy of God's love.
How different to the complete indifference with which Maharaji sees those 'presences on the Internet.'
As a non premie in 1990;I was lucky?to have been in attendance at one of maharaji's talks in san francisco.At the beginning of his talk a distressed womans voice rang out from the back of the hall:"Maharaji,help me" "please help me" "Maharaji" over and over getting progressively louder until everyone including maharaji noticed this hysterical person.she was quickly escorted out of the hall by security.maharaji remained as poised and unflinching as a rock star who doesn't miss a beat even when he can clearly see someone in the front row being carried out on a stretcher due to heat exhaustion or whatever.He just kept on with his talk,apparently unshaken by the incident.
I however was quite shaken by the little drama and wondered about what was up with that woman?I asked the premies whose guest i was and one of them said that the woman was familiar to them,that she was mentally unbalanced and kept calling elan vital/maharaji wanting money.I guess she came to his talk to make her 'request' for money in person.my premie friends seemed unconcerned but in my head i was thinking"unbalanced or not;she probably was a premie who gave lots of $$$ over the years and was now in financial difficulty and wanted help from the one to whom she'd given everything to" that incident made me very leery of the whole group.
Was anyone here at that talk who knows whatever happened to that person?Did she get help?
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Date: Thurs, Dec 18, 1997 at 16:57:57 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email: joger02@aol.com
To: jerome
Subject: Re: Those presences
Message:
Maharaji said something about presences on the Net who were confusing premies and aspirants. Has it occured to him that those presences are those people who once gave their lives to him out of love.
Maharaji, the compassionate and caring Lord of the Universe couldn't give a damn about the people who once spent years of their lives in humble service to him.
I am reminded of the Parable of the Lost Sheep in the Bible. Jesus told this parable to His disciples to illustrate the love He had for His devotees.
The good shepherd would search high and low for just one lost sheep and not rest until He found it. That parable always struck me as such a beautiful analogy of God's love.
How different to the complete indifference with which Maharaji sees those 'presences on the Internet.'
As a non premie in 1990;I was lucky?to have been in attendance at one of maharaji's talks in san francisco.At the beginning of his talk a distressed womans voice rang out from the back of the hall:'Maharaji,help me' 'please help me' 'Maharaji' over and over getting progressively louder until everyone including maharaji noticed this hysterical person.she was quickly escorted out of the hall by security.maharaji remained as poised and unflinching as a rock star who doesn't miss a beat even when he can clearly see someone in the front row being carried out on a stretcher due to heat exhaustion or whatever.He just kept on with his talk,apparently unshaken by the incident.
I however was quite shaken by the little drama and wondered about what was up with that woman?I asked the premies whose guest i was and one of them said that the woman was familiar to them,that she was mentally unbalanced and kept calling elan vital/maharaji wanting money.I guess she came to his talk to make her 'request' for money in person.my premie friends seemed unconcerned but in my head i was thinking'unbalanced or not;she probably was a premie who gave lots of $$$ over the years and was now in financial difficulty and wanted help from the one to whom she'd given everything to' that incident made me very leery of the whole group.
Was anyone here at that talk who knows whatever happened to that person?Did she get help?
Was this an introductory program at the Marriott Hotel in dowtown San Francisco in June, 1990? If so, I was there. Can you confirm the date and place?
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Date: Thurs, Dec 18, 1997 at 17:14:17 (EST)
Poster: Brian
Email:
To: Mike
Subject: Re: Those presences
Message:
She and I were having a nice peaceful chat about Mishler. Then she slammed me as having no voice or opinion of my own and merely parroting Jim's words, coupled with an apology to "anyone" who may be offended. Then she ignores my response. I've seen this same treatment regularly from her since this site first came up in the Spring of this year. Later she'll feign not knowing what I'm even referring to, and having to go back through the archives in order to respond.
I don't discourage premies from posting here, and welcome their having a chance to be exposed to the truth about MJ that they're not going to hear from her or the other "enlightened" clones around him. People want to post devotional words here, fine. It's what they honestly believe. But anyone dancing to whatever is playing at the time isn't going to have my respect. If they decide to attack and fade into innocent anonymity, I'm supposed to respect that? It's not gonna happen.
OP and I apparently aren't gonna be buddies, as I can't stand her chameleon behavior. But that's just me. Right now she's wall-colored and out of the conversation. More evasion. Screw her.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 18, 1997 at 22:35:35 (EST)
Poster: jerome
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: Those presences
Message:
Maharaji said something about presences on the Net who were confusing premies and aspirants. Has it occured to him that those presences are those people who once gave their lives to him out of love.
Maharaji, the compassionate and caring Lord of the Universe couldn't give a damn about the people who once spent years of their lives in humble service to him.
I am reminded of the Parable of the Lost Sheep in the Bible. Jesus told this parable to His disciples to illustrate the love He had for His devotees.
The good shepherd would search high and low for just one lost sheep and not rest until He found it. That parable always struck me as such a beautiful analogy of God's love.
How different to the complete indifference with which Maharaji sees those 'presences on the Internet.'
As a non premie in 1990;I was lucky?to have been in attendance at one of maharaji's talks in san francisco.At the beginning of his talk a distressed womans voice rang out from the back of the hall:'Maharaji,help me' 'please help me' 'Maharaji' over and over getting progressively louder until everyone including maharaji noticed this hysterical person.she was quickly escorted out of the hall by security.maharaji remained as poised and unflinching as a rock star who doesn't miss a beat even when he can clearly see someone in the front row being carried out on a stretcher due to heat exhaustion or whatever.He just kept on with his talk,apparently unshaken by the incident.
I however was quite shaken by the little drama and wondered about what was up with that woman?I asked the premies whose guest i was and one of them said that the woman was familiar to them,that she was mentally unbalanced and kept calling elan vital/maharaji wanting money.I guess she came to his talk to make her 'request' for money in person.my premie friends seemed unconcerned but in my head i was thinking'unbalanced or not;she probably was a premie who gave lots of $$$ over the years and was now in financial difficulty and wanted help from the one to whom she'd given everything to' that incident made me very leery of the whole group.
Was anyone here at that talk who knows whatever happened to that person?Did she get help?
Was this an introductory program at the Marriott Hotel in dowtown San Francisco in June, 1990? If so, I was there. Can you confirm the date and place?
Yes,unless there was another talk in s.f. in the summer of '90 downtown at the marriott(no sarcasm intended,i don't remember exact date but it was summer '90)then that would be the one.Do you recall what i'm referring to?It happened near the beginning of maharajis talk.
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Date: Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 00:36:54 (EST)
Poster: CD
Email:
To: Michael
Subject: Re: Those presences
Message:
It does depend on which translation you read doesn't it!
Now was it:
The light that shines in all men
or
The light that shines on all men
???
After running into M I saw more clearly a lot of unifying principles at the root of many religions.
Consider that M did bring up Socrates, Buddha, Krishna, Jesus, Kabir and many, many others in his talks.
How many 'Christians' are so tolerant of the roots of religion throughout this world?
I found the perspective refreshing.
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Date: Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 00:45:43 (EST)
Poster: CD
Email:
To: Mr Ex
Subject: Re: Those presences
Message:
M did mention at Long Beach the story of the premie who drove the van into the living room of the house where he was staying.
That premie was testing M out a long time back.
I remember all sorts of rumours and derogatory stuff said about M way back in 1972 and ever since then.
M must have seen and heard it all by now.
Now that you are an EX what is your next great venture in this lifetime?
CD
Is it easy being the King?
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Date: Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 11:06:59 (EST)
Poster: Mr Ex
Email:
To: CD
Subject: Re: Those presences
Message:
No need for ‘great venture’, beside life itself !
I enjoy life ! And love !
Mr PPR has no copyright on these ! ! ! !
The kind of love (from his devotees prostrating to him) Mr PPR his hungry for
is not what I consider being real love.
I enjoy lots of things in life, and the inner feeling of me being alive, which
is NOT dependent of that guru-disciple relationship.
Mr PPR tried to convince me that it’s the only ‘real love’ : I believed him
for 25 years, and finally discovered that he is awfully wrong.
YOU KNOW WHY ?
BECAUSE IT’S THE ONLY ONE HE HIMSELF EVER EXPERIENCED !
How simple !
Most of what he ever felt was through WORSHIP.
He will never change his mind about this, for that very reason !
Mr Sigmund Freud will be right.
He has been worshipped since his childhood, even before his master-father’s death.
Premies and mahatmas around him would treat him as a semi-god when he was a baby.
I know it for sure, from a person (Indian woman) who was taking care of him when he was
a baby. He even had a Krishna suit as a baby. Maybe it’s an Indian habit ....
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Date: Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 11:27:09 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: jerome
Subject: Re: Those presences
Message:
Yes, I do recall the screaming woman, although I guess from where I was sitting, I couldn't see that she was taken out of the hall.
That program was the first time I had seen M in about 7 years. When I came to the program, by myself, I went to get a ticket and was asked if I had received knowledge. When I said I had, I was asked for money. I declined, and after some hassle was given a seating ticket that turned out to be in the FOURTH row. I don't think I had ever been that close at any program before.
M gave his usual, vague, repetitive speech in which he never really said what he was talking about, only that there was "something" "so beautiful".
But later on in the speech he began to make fun of people, human beings in general and even ridiculed people who were trying to work for "world peace", in the political sense, I guess. I was offended by this arrogance, especially since I had never seen him really benefit anyone except himself, and I walked out while he was speaking. At first the security guy wasn't going to let me out the door, but I gave him a dirty look and he let me through. That was the last time I heard him speak in person.
JW
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Date: Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 12:08:37 (EST)
Poster: Michael
Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net
To: CD
Subject: Re: Those presences
Message:
It does depend on which translation you read doesn't it!
Now was it:
The light that shines in all men
or
The light that shines on all men
???
After running into M I saw more clearly a lot of unifying principles at the root of many religions.
Consider that M did bring up Socrates, Buddha, Krishna, Jesus, Kabir and many, many others in his talks.
How many 'Christians' are so tolerant of the roots of religion throughout this world?
I found the perspective refreshing.
Well, CD, I read it in the Greek.
I do not deny that there are unifying principles at the root of many religions, but it is incorrect to say that Jesus taught the same knowledge as M. I'm not talking about the superiority of one faith over the other, just that the claim that Jesus taught "the Knowledge" is false.
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Date: Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 14:32:19 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email:
To: Michael
Subject: Re: Those presences
Message:
It does depend on which translation you read doesn't it!
Now was it:
The light that shines in all men
or
The light that shines on all men
???
After running into M I saw more clearly a lot of unifying principles at the root of many religions.
Consider that M did bring up Socrates, Buddha, Krishna, Jesus, Kabir and many, many others in his talks.
How many 'Christians' are so tolerant of the roots of religion throughout this world?
I found the perspective refreshing.
Well, CD, I read it in the Greek.
I do not deny that there are unifying principles at the root of many religions, but it is incorrect to say that Jesus taught the same knowledge as M. I'm not talking about the superiority of one faith over the other, just that the claim that Jesus taught 'the Knowledge' is false.
How do you know? Were you there in Jesus' time? Do you know the true meaning of being dunked in the river Jordan? I'll tell you what it was - it was to feel how precious your breath is. When you feel longing for God as much as you feel longing for your breath when submerged, than you'll realize something about the preciousness of this life.
- Mili
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Date: Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 14:49:37 (EST)
Poster: Michael
Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net
To: Mili
Subject: Re: Those presences
Message:
It does depend on which translation you read doesn't it!
Now was it:
The light that shines in all men
or
The light that shines on all men
???
After running into M I saw more clearly a lot of unifying principles at the root of many religions.
Consider that M did bring up Socrates, Buddha, Krishna, Jesus, Kabir and many, many others in his talks.
How many 'Christians' are so tolerant of the roots of religion throughout this world?
I found the perspective refreshing.
Well, CD, I read it in the Greek.
I do not deny that there are unifying principles at the root of many religions, but it is incorrect to say that Jesus taught the same knowledge as M. I'm not talking about the superiority of one faith over the other, just that the claim that Jesus taught 'the Knowledge' is false.
How do you know? Were you there in Jesus' time? Do you know the true meaning of being dunked in the river Jordan? I'll tell you what it was - it was to feel how precious your breath is. When you feel longing for God as much as you feel longing for your breath when submerged, than you'll realize something about the preciousness of this life.
- Mili
Puleeze! The whole concept of baptism is to force one to concentrate on one's breath? I agree that we can't really know what Jesus taught; he was not surrounded by stenographers in the first century, and I agree that the gospels were written at least sixty years after the event, and some of the content was based on oral tradition, and some on the theological agenda of the writers, but the only ones who may have taught M's knowledge techniques may have been the Gnostics, and their secret knowledge came from Persian sources, not Jesus. Give it up, your argument that 'Jesus taught this knowledge' is fallacious.
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Date: Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 14:58:54 (EST)
Poster: Rick
Email: rtaraday@hotmail.com
To: Mili
Subject: Re: Those presences
Message:
I'll tell you what it was - it was to feel how precious your breath is. When you feel longing for God as much as you feel longing for your breath when submerged, than you'll realize something about the preciousness of this life.
- Mili
I think there is something terribly punishing about that idea. Do you think people should be smart enough to recognize their need for God (or is it Maharaji)? If they aren't smart enough, then should they be punished, so then they'll realize it out of utter desperation? Or is it that people just aren't smart enough, and we all can only learn through the terrible punishment of the longing, in the absence of recognizing God? What a reality!
The outstanding dysfunction of premies is to convolute their psychological aberrations into a divine scenario, where a diety takes on all their projections of what their parents were like.
I used to make comparisons of Maharaji and knowledge to scriptures, but I really did it to try to prove to myself that Maharaji and knowledge were real. Fact is, it didn't matter; either they were real or not. The scriptures are vague, and there's a lot of disagreement about what they mean. There's so much evidence that all of history is subject to interpretation, and that most of it isn't accurate. Just like in a crime, if you didn't witness it, you really don't know, and in the end, what difference does it make?
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Date: Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 15:08:12 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email:
To: Michael
Subject: Re: Those presences
Message:
It does depend on which translation you read doesn't it!
Now was it:
The light that shines in all men
or
The light that shines on all men
???
After running into M I saw more clearly a lot of unifying principles at the root of many religions.
Consider that M did bring up Socrates, Buddha, Krishna, Jesus, Kabir and many, many others in his talks.
How many 'Christians' are so tolerant of the roots of religion throughout this world?
I found the perspective refreshing.
Well, CD, I read it in the Greek.
I do not deny that there are unifying principles at the root of many religions, but it is incorrect to say that Jesus taught the same knowledge as M. I'm not talking about the superiority of one faith over the other, just that the claim that Jesus taught 'the Knowledge' is false.
How do you know? Were you there in Jesus' time? Do you know the true meaning of being dunked in the river Jordan? I'll tell you what it was - it was to feel how precious your breath is. When you feel longing for God as much as you feel longing for your breath when submerged, than you'll realize something about the preciousness of this life.
- Mili
Puleeze! The whole concept of baptism is to force one to concentrate on one's breath? I agree that we can't really know what Jesus taught; he was not surrounded by stenographers in the first century, and I agree that the gospels were written at least sixty years after the event, and some of the content was based on oral tradition, and some on the theological agenda of the writers, but the only ones who may have taught M's knowledge techniques may have been the Gnostics, and their secret knowledge came from Persian sources, not Jesus. Give it up, your argument that 'Jesus taught this knowledge' is fallacious.
Don't hit me with that Neo-Platonic book-knowledge, please.
The Truth is beyond logic, beyond the mind.
Try holding your breath. You will realize there is a Power greater than you - in you, over which you have absolutely no control.
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Date: Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 15:43:37 (EST)
Poster: Brian
Email:
To: Mili
Subject: Re: Those presences
Message:
Do you know the true meaning of being dunked in the river Jordan? I'll tell you what it was - it was to feel how precious your breath is. When you feel longing for God as much as you feel longing for your breath when submerged, than you'll realize something about the preciousness of this life.
It's possible that your baptizer waited too long after the bubbles stopped before letting you re-surface, Mili. QUITE possible...
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Date: Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 15:57:10 (EST)
Poster: bftb
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: Those presences
Message:
Yes, I do recall the screaming woman, although I guess from where I was sitting, I couldn't see that she was taken out of the hall.
That program was the first time I had seen M in about 7 years. When I came to the program, by myself, I went to get a ticket and was asked if I had received knowledge. When I said I had, I was asked for money. I declined, and after some hassle was given a seating ticket that turned out to be in the FOURTH row. I don't think I had ever been that close at any program before.
M gave his usual, vague, repetitive speech in which he never really said what he was talking about, only that there was 'something' 'so beautiful'.
But later on in the speech he began to make fun of people, human beings in general and even ridiculed people who were trying to work for 'world peace', in the political sense, I guess. I was offended by this arrogance, especially since I had never seen him really benefit anyone except himself, and I walked out while he was speaking. At first the security guy wasn't going to let me out the door, but I gave him a dirty look and he let me through. That was the last time I heard him speak in person.
JW
I was also sitting near the front(to the left,perhaps 5-10 rows back) at that program.I was an aspirant at the time.I remember how the way M ignored the drama and continued was impressive to me at that time.I thought that he must be for real because he maintained focus and grace,so it was sort of like it lent further credence to my feelings that M was someone special.So focused on bringing knowledge that nothing can stop him.I guess whichever angle you're looking at something from influences your interpretation.I think if I was at that program today i'd probably think what jerome thought and not pursue the whole M/K experience.
Interesting that you walked out;would take nerve at any conference,let alone one given by your former guru.
I liked that program;his misanthropic humour just made me laugh,I really did find him funny-but hey;I find Howard Stern very funny at times so I guess I'm a cynical anti-human as well:-)
So;his humour didn't bug me,i enjoy his humour.The drama of the hysterical woman didn't really bug me for too long.What DID bug me was this(extremely attractive blonde woman)person who must have worked for M as his official stenogropher or something cuz she was typing away at her lap top the whole program!It (the key hitting...)was very distracting the whole time.
all in all,I did really like that program.A friend of mine with whom i was staying in berkeley(he wasn't a premmie or an aspirant)and who I had talked into checking out the program was not impressed with M.At the time this floored me cuz I was blown away and in that sought after bliss space and my friend felt nothing.Didn't make sense at the time cuz from what was then my perspective M was the greatest.All my friend really said about the program was that he didn't find M funny and he was amazed at how hard and often the audience laughed and seemed to think he was so hilarious.He also didn't like the pretentious formality of the whole thing.
Oh yeah;I'm not sure if it was at this program or at a video event before the program(which he'd seen before actually seeing M in person-I take full responsibility for talking him into checking out both);but my friend was actually insulted by something M said and although everyone else present found it funny he took offense:M was ridiculing the calibre of restaurants in the u.s. saying something like 'well if there was a good restaurant in this country...'something along those lines.Of course my friend is a sous-chef so maybe it got his back up more then was called for due to his sensitivity in that area,but that program really turned the guy off and he basically just thought M was foolish.
My feelings were very different.
note:when I first posted to this site I made a decision to investigate my lingering questions about M in as neutral a manner as possible.I didn't want my posts to indicate my premmie/ex-premmie status as I figured that would help in not colouring anyones responses to my investigations.You know;if i'm not on any side then people will say what they really think without as much of an agenda. I guess the cats out of the bag now but I actually do feel a certain degree of ambivalence towards the whole topic and genuinely seek answers.I am not on any side-still a little too flaky for that.
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Date: Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 16:16:15 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Brian
Subject: Re: Those presences
Message:
Brian, with you the word 'dickhead' aquires some new, entirely unexpected meanings.
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Date: Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 18:34:34 (EST)
Poster: Michael
Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net
To: Mili
Subject: Re: Those presences
Message:
>Mili wrote:
"Don't hit me with that Neo-Platonic book-knowledge, please. The Truth is beyond logic, beyond the mind.
Try holding your breath. You will realize there is a Power greater than you - in you, over which you have absolutely no control."
Mili, if the truth is beyond logic and mind, you must be the truth, because you are waaay beyond logic. If the truth is to be discovered in avoiding asphyxiation, can a ventilator be used as a possible means to elightenment? I don't deny the presence of a Higher Power; I am a deist, but I am also a Patristics scholar, and I'm telling you, Jesus did not teach 'this knowledge.' Premies like to claim that Jesus did, but this claim does not hold up; it is an illusion which you can give up without harming your beautiful, blissful experience.
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Date: Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 23:10:46 (EST)
Poster: CD
Email:
To: Mr Ex
Subject: Re: Those presences
Message:
Well it sounds like you are doing pretty good.
What is wrong with calling a deep experience which can be felt inside 'love'?
Its more acceptable than zowy or radz.
I'll bet you have had some nice adventures.
I do see truth in the notion that people become crusted as they grow older and forget simple feelings.
We get too smart and busy.
I have a hunch that we will all be trying to put a collar on these topics till our days end.
We will generate so many ideas that we can not fit them into all of our constraints.
I do believe that all human beings have a deep equality.
Happy holidays and the rest of the days too.
Peace,
CD
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Date: Sat, Dec 20, 1997 at 02:52:18 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email:
To: Michael
Subject: Re: Those presences
Message:
>Mili wrote:
'Don't hit me with that Neo-Platonic book-knowledge, please. The Truth is beyond logic, beyond the mind.
Try holding your breath. You will realize there is a Power greater than you - in you, over which you have absolutely no control.'
Mili, if the truth is beyond logic and mind, you must be the truth, because you are waaay beyond logic. If the truth is to be discovered in avoiding asphyxiation, can a ventilator be used as a possible means to elightenment? I don't deny the presence of a Higher Power; I am a deist, but I am also a Patristics scholar, and I'm telling you, Jesus did not teach 'this knowledge.' Premies like to claim that Jesus did, but this claim does not hold up; it is an illusion which you can give up without harming your beautiful, blissful experience.
You don't know that. You don't know what Jesus exactly taught. You just have a conviction, a belief. Why should your belief be more correct than mine?
'If thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of Light.'
'The Kingdom of Heaven is within you.'
'Unless ye become as little children, you cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven.'
'God is a Spirit, and those who worship him as Spirit worship him in Truth.'
Spirit comes from the Latin verb 'Spiro', which means to breathe.
Check out the parable of the Sower and the Seeds. It tallies exactly with many people receiving Knowledge, some of them practicing it, and most of them not.
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Date: Sat, Dec 20, 1997 at 06:57:24 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email:
To: Michael
Subject: Re: Those presences
Message:
>Mili wrote:
'Don't hit me with that Neo-Platonic book-knowledge, please. The Truth is beyond logic, beyond the mind.
Try holding your breath. You will realize there is a Power greater than you - in you, over which you have absolutely no control.'
Mili, if the truth is beyond logic and mind, you must be the truth, because you are waaay beyond logic. If the truth is to be discovered in avoiding asphyxiation, can a ventilator be used as a possible means to elightenment? I don't deny the presence of a Higher Power; I am a deist, but I am also a Patristics scholar, and I'm telling you, Jesus did not teach 'this knowledge.' Premies like to claim that Jesus did, but this claim does not hold up; it is an illusion which you can give up without harming your beautiful, blissful experience.
I just re-read this reply that you gave. You say you are a 'patristics scholar'. You know what you are? You are a modern Pharisee. There were plenty of such 'scholars' there in Jesus' time and they were the ones who felt most that he was upsetting their dogma.
Logic came into Christianity later, remember, with the Neo-Platonists. The early church fathers felt it was diluting their creed with Greek influences, but thanks to St. Augustine who was an erudite as well as a saint, the Aristotelian logic found its place in monasteries and survived the Dark ages. I don't have anything against logic.
But experience come first. You can analyse it logically later.
BTW, the Jesus' initiation (baptism) by dunking in water until you gasp for breath comes from the 'Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna'.
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Date: Sat, Dec 20, 1997 at 21:30:15 (EST)
Poster: op
Email:
To: Mr Ex
Subject: Re: Those presences
Message:
Premies and mahatmas around him would treat him as a semi-god when he was a baby.
I know it for sure, from a person (Indian woman) who was taking care of him when he was a baby. He even had a Krishna suit as a baby. Maybe it¹s an Indian habit ....
Thanks for pointing out that those around him considered him next in line even before Shri Hans was gone. So much for Mataji's and Bal Bhagwan's arguments to the contrary.
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Date: Sat, Dec 20, 1997 at 21:40:46 (EST)
Poster: op
Email:
To: Brian
Subject: Re: Those presences
Message:
Hi Bri
Then she slammed me as having no voice or opinion of my own and merely parroting Jim's words, coupled with an apology to 'anyone' who may be offended.
I can take a bit of criticism - can you? If you were always parrotting Jim's words, you'd be a puppet. You have your own self, obviously. I don't much like your sense of humor - I think it's pretty outrageous, ex or not, that you use bathroom and xxx humor to try to make a point about the spirit, and I'm very insulted by that. But that's your style, and now that you've established it, I won't complain. The previous posts I did mention were of a different ilk.
OP and I apparently aren't gonna be buddies, as I can't stand her chameleon behavior. But that's just me. Right now she's wall-colored and out of the conversation. More evasion. Screw her.
Is that the way you always talk when someone's out of the room? No, I don't think we'll be buddies, but I will try to speak to you civilly. As for screwing me - forget it!
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Date: Sat, Dec 20, 1997 at 23:03:24 (EST)
Poster: Michael
Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net
To: Mili
Subject: Re: Those presences
Message:
>Mili wrote:
'Don't hit me with that Neo-Platonic book-knowledge, please. The Truth is beyond logic, beyond the mind.
Try holding your breath. You will realize there is a Power greater than you - in you, over which you have absolutely no control.'
Mili, if the truth is beyond logic and mind, you must be the truth, because you are waaay beyond logic. If the truth is to be discovered in avoiding asphyxiation, can a ventilator be used as a possible means to elightenment? I don't deny the presence of a Higher Power; I am a deist, but I am also a Patristics scholar, and I'm telling you, Jesus did not teach 'this knowledge.' Premies like to claim that Jesus did, but this claim does not hold up; it is an illusion which you can give up without harming your beautiful, blissful experience.
I just re-read this reply that you gave. You say you are a 'patristics scholar'. You know what you are? You are a modern Pharisee. There were plenty of such 'scholars' there in Jesus' time and they were the ones who felt most that he was upsetting their dogma.
Logic came into Christianity later, remember, with the Neo-Platonists. The early church fathers felt it was diluting their creed with Greek influences, but thanks to St. Augustine who was an erudite as well as a saint, the Aristotelian logic found its place in monasteries and survived the Dark ages. I don't have anything against logic.
But experience come first. You can analyse it logically later.
BTW, the Jesus' initiation (baptism) by dunking in water until you gasp for breath comes from the 'Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna'.
Well, you can call me a Pharisee, and you can continue to cling to your little dream that Jesus taught 'this precious knowledge;" I know that I won't change your mind. I find it interesting that Yogananda, Rajneesh, Maharaji, and others all find it necessary to add the name of Jesus to their Pantheon; I think that they hope that it will give legitimacy in the West to their sorry little sects. Is that it, Mili? Do you need to believe that Jesus taught "this knowledge" in order that it be legit? Don't you have faith in your experience without calling in other traditions?
I have always been amazed at how many Premies have difficulty in acknowledging that there are spiritual disciplines and religions and faiths which have nothing to do with K. Many Premies also have trouble admitting that they may be wrong about anything which has to do with spiritual matters. I received Knowledge; I practiced it; I found it wanting. I have no desire to convert you to Christianity, I have no desire to convert anyone on this website. I will not change your mind, and you can not convince me that Jesus taught Knowledge.
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