Ex-Premie.Org

Forum II Archive # 2

From: Dec 9, 1997

To: Dec 30, 1997

Page: 2 Of: 5


Bobby -:- possible crash of the forum -:- Fri, Dec 26, 1997 at 08:43:34 (EST)
___d@vid -:- Re: possible crash of the forum -:- Fri, Dec 26, 1997 at 10:11:38 (EST)
___Bobby -:- Re: possible crash of the forum -:- Fri, Dec 26, 1997 at 10:44:07 (EST)
___d@vid -:- Re: possible crash of the forum -:- Fri, Dec 26, 1997 at 17:47:03 (EST)

John Cavad -:- Any Remaining Momentos? -:- Fri, Dec 26, 1997 at 03:24:50 (EST)
___momen -:- toes -:- Fri, Dec 26, 1997 at 15:55:59 (EST)

Anon -:- Presentation -:- Thurs, Dec 25, 1997 at 22:18:21 (EST)
___John K. -:- Re: Presentation -:- Thurs, Dec 25, 1997 at 22:34:48 (EST)
___Mr Ex -:- Re: Presentation -:- Fri, Dec 26, 1997 at 05:05:05 (EST)
___Brian (the OP-baiter) -:- Re: Presentation -:- Fri, Dec 26, 1997 at 08:40:38 (EST)
___d@vid -:- Re: Presentation -:- Fri, Dec 26, 1997 at 10:26:57 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: Presentation -:- Fri, Dec 26, 1997 at 18:52:24 (EST)
___Jim -:- Re: Presentation -:- Fri, Dec 26, 1997 at 19:52:17 (EST)

A TRUE PREMIE -:- ONE MORE CRUCIFIED -:- Thurs, Dec 25, 1997 at 21:08:48 (EST)
___Brian -:- Re: ONE MORE CRUCIFIED -:- Thurs, Dec 25, 1997 at 22:18:00 (EST)
___Sir David -:- Re: ONE MORE CRUCIFIED -:- Fri, Dec 26, 1997 at 00:04:57 (EST)
___A 15 yr veteran of BS -:- Re: ONE MORE CRUCIFIED -:- Fri, Dec 26, 1997 at 03:08:50 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: ONE MORE CRUCIFIED -:- Fri, Dec 26, 1997 at 06:15:40 (EST)
___John Cavad -:- Re: ONE MORE CRUCIFIED -:- Fri, Dec 26, 1997 at 12:50:44 (EST)
___Mickey the Pharisee -:- Re: ONE MORE CRUCIFIED -:- Fri, Dec 26, 1997 at 13:43:43 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: ONE MORE CRUCIFIED -:- Fri, Dec 26, 1997 at 15:40:18 (EST)
___into the -:- quicksand -:- Fri, Dec 26, 1997 at 15:59:38 (EST)
___Mike -:- Re: ONE MORE CRUCIFIED -:- Fri, Dec 26, 1997 at 16:00:53 (EST)
___Jim -:- Re: ONE MORE CRUCIFIED -:- Fri, Dec 26, 1997 at 20:04:29 (EST)
___Jim -:- Re: ONE MORE CRUCIFIED -:- Fri, Dec 26, 1997 at 20:13:28 (EST)

to the person who -:- e-mailed -:- Thurs, Dec 25, 1997 at 08:29:45 (EST)
___From that person -:- Re: e-mailed -:- Sat, Dec 27, 1997 at 10:17:39 (EST)
___christ -:- mas -:- Sat, Dec 27, 1997 at 21:49:51 (EST)

Mike -:- Merry Christmas and Happy New Year -:- Thurs, Dec 25, 1997 at 00:41:52 (EST)
___Mr. Oxymoron -:- Re: Merry Christmas and Happy New Year -:- Thurs, Dec 25, 1997 at 17:59:22 (EST)
___Mike -:- Re: Merry Christmas and Happy New Year -:- Thurs, Dec 25, 1997 at 20:47:14 (EST)
___Mike -:- Re: Merry Christmas and Happy New Year -:- Thurs, Dec 25, 1997 at 20:50:40 (EST)

Jim -:- premie christmases - remember? -:- Wed, Dec 24, 1997 at 23:10:15 (EST)
___Scrooge -:- Good work Jim -:- Wed, Dec 24, 1997 at 23:55:55 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: premie christmases - remember? -:- Fri, Dec 26, 1997 at 12:05:14 (EST)

Mr Ex -:- Why stay Anonymouse -:- Wed, Dec 24, 1997 at 14:54:50 (EST)
___whom -:- ever -:- Wed, Dec 24, 1997 at 15:51:23 (EST)
___John K. -:- Re: Why stay Anonymouse -:- Thurs, Dec 25, 1997 at 22:42:45 (EST)
___John Cavad -:- Re: Why stay Anonymouse -:- Fri, Dec 26, 1997 at 03:13:52 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: Why stay Anonymouse -:- Fri, Dec 26, 1997 at 11:49:19 (EST)
___John Cavad -:- Re: Why stay Anonymouse -:- Fri, Dec 26, 1997 at 12:21:50 (EST)
___Bobby -:- Re: Why stay Anonymouse -:- Fri, Dec 26, 1997 at 12:53:30 (EST)
___Jim -:- Re: Why stay Anonymouse -:- Fri, Dec 26, 1997 at 21:06:37 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: Why stay Anonymouse -:- Sat, Dec 27, 1997 at 08:23:47 (EST)
___Bobby -:- Re: Why stay Anonymouse -:- Sat, Dec 27, 1997 at 12:58:21 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: Why stay Anonymouse -:- Sat, Dec 27, 1997 at 14:12:39 (EST)

bftb -:- question for john cavad -:- Wed, Dec 24, 1997 at 14:43:33 (EST)
___Bobby -:- Re: question for john cavad -:- Wed, Dec 24, 1997 at 14:55:37 (EST)
___Joe Campbell -:- a timely message -:- Wed, Dec 24, 1997 at 15:33:06 (EST)
___Jim -:- Re: question for john cavad -:- Wed, Dec 24, 1997 at 18:19:35 (EST)
___Nigel -:- Re: a timely message -:- Wed, Dec 24, 1997 at 18:47:00 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: question for john cavad -:- Thurs, Dec 25, 1997 at 14:44:59 (EST)
___John Cavad -:- Re: Answer from john cavad -:- Thurs, Dec 25, 1997 at 14:45:56 (EST)
___John Cavad -:- Re: Answer from john cavad -:- Fri, Dec 26, 1997 at 03:16:35 (EST)
___Mr Ex -:- He said he is Hari -:- Fri, Dec 26, 1997 at 05:08:30 (EST)
___Bobby -:- Re: question for john cavad -:- Fri, Dec 26, 1997 at 11:01:47 (EST)
___John Cavad -:- Re: He said he is Hari -:- Fri, Dec 26, 1997 at 12:26:27 (EST)
___bobby -:- lights -:- Sat, Dec 27, 1997 at 21:58:31 (EST)
___jim -:- Re: question for john cavad -:- Mon, Dec 29, 1997 at 19:35:38 (EST)
___Bobby -:- Re: question for john cavad -:- Mon, Dec 29, 1997 at 21:13:06 (EST)

Seymour -:- Happy Christmas -:- Wed, Dec 24, 1997 at 13:50:00 (EST)
___d@vid -:- Re: Happy Christmas -:- Wed, Dec 24, 1997 at 16:09:05 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: Happy Christmas -:- Wed, Dec 24, 1997 at 17:27:18 (EST)
___M -:- To all my children... -:- Wed, Dec 24, 1997 at 18:43:06 (EST)
___CD -:- Happy New Year -:- Wed, Dec 24, 1997 at 22:18:39 (EST)
___d@vid -:- Re: Happy New Year -:- Thurs, Dec 25, 1997 at 06:18:18 (EST)
___d@vid -:- Re: PS to CD -:- Thurs, Dec 25, 1997 at 06:27:21 (EST)
___Katie -:- Dysfunctional Family Christmas -:- Thurs, Dec 25, 1997 at 14:17:25 (EST)
___Mike -:- Re: Dysfunctional Family Christmas -:- Thurs, Dec 25, 1997 at 23:31:36 (EST)
___CD -:- Re: PS to CD -:- Mon, Dec 29, 1997 at 16:23:16 (EST)

Mili -:- Fire in the Equations -:- Wed, Dec 24, 1997 at 06:16:44 (EST)
___boring John K. -:- Re: Fire in the Equations -:- Wed, Dec 24, 1997 at 10:39:21 (EST)
___Mr Oxymoron -:- Re: Fire in the Equations -:- Wed, Dec 24, 1997 at 10:47:53 (EST)
___the boring one -:- Re: Fire in the Equations -:- Wed, Dec 24, 1997 at 11:03:20 (EST)
___Jim -:- Re: Fire in the Equations -:- Wed, Dec 24, 1997 at 18:21:13 (EST)
___op -:- Re: Fire in the Equations -:- Wed, Dec 24, 1997 at 23:39:24 (EST)
___op -:- Re: Fire in the Equations -:- Wed, Dec 24, 1997 at 23:40:29 (EST)
___Jim -:- Re: Fire in the Equations -:- Thurs, Dec 25, 1997 at 15:10:32 (EST)
___Mr. Oxymoron -:- Re: Fire in the Equations -:- Thurs, Dec 25, 1997 at 17:54:56 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: Fire in the Equations -:- Thurs, Dec 25, 1997 at 19:42:48 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: Fire in the Equations -:- Fri, Dec 26, 1997 at 11:20:29 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: Fire in the Equations -:- Fri, Dec 26, 1997 at 13:20:03 (EST)

Jim -:- Compromised Intelligence -:- Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 23:54:52 (EST)
___lord Jim -:- O'Heller -:- Wed, Dec 24, 1997 at 00:33:34 (EST)
___Acadian Driftwood -:- Canadian Coldfront -:- Wed, Dec 24, 1997 at 00:48:05 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: Compromised Intelligence -:- Wed, Dec 24, 1997 at 01:08:41 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: Compromised Intelligence -:- Wed, Dec 24, 1997 at 03:25:41 (EST)
___A -:- Re: Compromised Intelligence -:- Wed, Dec 24, 1997 at 07:39:07 (EST)
___Mr Oxymoron -:- Re: Compromised Intelligence -:- Wed, Dec 24, 1997 at 10:45:10 (EST)
___John Cavad -:- Re: Compromised Intelligence -:- Wed, Dec 24, 1997 at 13:31:18 (EST)
___test -:- Re: Compromised Intelligence -:- Thurs, Dec 25, 1997 at 22:09:54 (EST)

ex-cyclist -:- Why the angst -:- Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 22:57:27 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: Why the angst -:- Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 23:26:36 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: Why the angst -:- Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 23:50:07 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: Why the angst -:- Wed, Dec 24, 1997 at 00:56:37 (EST)
___John Cavad -:- Re: Why the angst -:- Wed, Dec 24, 1997 at 13:26:37 (EST)

Persons unmentionabl -:- A little more BBC ? -:- Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 21:51:43 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: A little more BBC ? -:- Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 23:17:55 (EST)
___how about one bbc site -:- and one tabloid -:- Wed, Dec 24, 1997 at 00:16:55 (EST)
___Katie -:- David the WebMaster -:- Wed, Dec 24, 1997 at 00:36:20 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: A little more BBC ? -:- Wed, Dec 24, 1997 at 00:48:12 (EST)
___Mr Oxymoron -:- Re: A little more BBC ? -:- Wed, Dec 24, 1997 at 10:50:45 (EST)
___Nigel -:- Re: A little more BBC ? -:- Wed, Dec 24, 1997 at 15:39:12 (EST)

Nigel -:- Does the poison run deeper than we -:- Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 21:48:07 (EST)

Mr. Y -:- Mass Suicide Likelyhood? -:- Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 21:05:35 (EST)
___Mike -:- Re: Mass Suicide Likelyhood? -:- Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 21:19:51 (EST)
___Mike -:- Re: Mass Suicide Likelyhood? -:- Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 21:22:31 (EST)
___bftb -:- Re: Mass Suicide Likelyhood? -:- Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 21:34:02 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: Mass Suicide Likelyhood? -:- Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 23:20:38 (EST)
___Brian -:- Re: Mass Suicide Likelyhood? -:- Thurs, Dec 25, 1997 at 08:58:47 (EST)

John Cavad -:- To Old Timers: How Many of us? -:- Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 18:19:41 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: To Old Timers: How Many of us? -:- Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 18:27:39 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: To Old Timers: How Many of us? -:- Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 18:30:02 (EST)
___John Cavad -:- Re: To Old Timers: How Many of us? -:- Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 18:50:43 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: To Old Timers: How Many of us? -:- Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 20:18:43 (EST)

Katie -:- Why Did We Leave? -:- Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 17:58:07 (EST)
___John Cavad -:- Re: Why Did We Leave? -:- Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 18:43:34 (EST)
___Nigel -:- Re: Why Did We Leave? -:- Wed, Dec 24, 1997 at 15:50:02 (EST)
___Nigel -:- Re: above posting -:- Fri, Dec 26, 1997 at 19:54:04 (EST)

Rodney King -:- A message from me to you -:- Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 15:20:27 (EST)
___bb -:- Re: A message from me to you -:- Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 16:38:28 (EST)
___bftb -:- Re: A message from me to you -:- Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 16:47:09 (EST)
___John K. -:- Re: A message from me to you -:- Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 16:55:33 (EST)
___bftb -:- Re: A message from me to you -:- Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 18:36:06 (EST)
___John K. -:- Re: A message from me to you -:- Wed, Dec 24, 1997 at 10:50:28 (EST)

Mili -:- The 'Topic' -:- Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 14:26:44 (EST)
___John K. -:- Re: The 'Topic' -:- Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 15:19:31 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: The 'Topic' -:- Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 15:33:07 (EST)
___John K. -:- Re: The 'Topic' -:- Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 16:53:06 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: The 'Topic' -:- Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 16:57:53 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: The 'Topic' -:- Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 17:49:15 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: The 'Topic' -:- Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 23:59:46 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: The 'Topic' -:- Wed, Dec 24, 1997 at 02:45:45 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: The 'Topic' -:- Wed, Dec 24, 1997 at 03:23:59 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: The 'Topic' -:- Wed, Dec 24, 1997 at 03:47:47 (EST)
___Nigel -:- Re: The 'Topic' -:- Wed, Dec 24, 1997 at 19:23:18 (EST)
___current premie -:- Re: The 'Topic' -:- Wed, Dec 24, 1997 at 21:08:45 (EST)

John Cavad -:- Ex-Premie Fesival Fantasy -:- Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 12:41:10 (EST)
___Bobby -:- Re: Ex-Premie Fesival Fantasy -:- Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 14:38:12 (EST)
___John K. -:- Re: Ex-Premie Fesival Fantasy -:- Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 14:43:10 (EST)
___John Cavad -:- Re: Ex-Premie Fesival Fantasy -:- Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 15:06:01 (EST)

d@vid -:- John's Journey -:- Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 11:34:05 (EST)

premie -:- interest -:- Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 09:50:18 (EST)
___John K. -:- Re: interest -:- Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 10:48:44 (EST)
___premie -:- Re: interest -:- Wed, Dec 24, 1997 at 09:16:12 (EST)
___premie again -:- Re: interest -:- Wed, Dec 24, 1997 at 10:33:41 (EST)
___John K. -:- Re: interest -:- Wed, Dec 24, 1997 at 11:57:45 (EST)

Annie -:- A Sense of Balance -:- Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 03:55:08 (EST)
___songs -:- Re: A Sense of Balance -:- Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 08:49:42 (EST)
___John K. -:- Re: A Sense of Balance -:- Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 11:10:27 (EST)
___What balance? -:- He is the fake lord and you cover it up -:- Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 22:43:00 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: He is the fake lord and you cover it up -:- Wed, Dec 24, 1997 at 00:33:48 (EST)
___jw -:- you are something else -:- Wed, Dec 24, 1997 at 01:16:47 (EST)
___Annie -:- the omnipresent teacher -:- Wed, Dec 24, 1997 at 07:50:41 (EST)
___A -:- speak for yourself, only. -:- Wed, Dec 24, 1997 at 07:54:40 (EST)
___rat -:- brain -:- Wed, Dec 24, 1997 at 09:52:49 (EST)
___premie -:- Re: the omnipresent teacher -:- Wed, Dec 24, 1997 at 10:42:56 (EST)
___Mr Ex -:- Re: the omnipresent teacher -:- Wed, Dec 24, 1997 at 11:31:00 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: the omnipresent teacher -:- Wed, Dec 24, 1997 at 11:45:17 (EST)
___Mr Ex -:- Please use your brains -:- Wed, Dec 24, 1997 at 12:28:32 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: Please use your brains -:- Wed, Dec 24, 1997 at 13:02:31 (EST)
___a -:- Re: brain -:- Wed, Dec 24, 1997 at 20:11:23 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: He is the fake lord and you cover it up -:- Thurs, Dec 25, 1997 at 03:26:35 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: speak for yourself, only. -:- Thurs, Dec 25, 1997 at 19:16:34 (EST)
___Jim -:- Re: He is the fake lord and you cover it up -:- Thurs, Dec 25, 1997 at 21:01:43 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: He is the fake lord and you cover it up -:- Fri, Dec 26, 1997 at 02:47:56 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: He is the fake lord and you cover it up -:- Fri, Dec 26, 1997 at 03:15:42 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: He is the fake lord and you cover it up -:- Fri, Dec 26, 1997 at 08:27:42 (EST)
___Current Premie -:- Re: He is the fake lord and you cover it up -:- Fri, Dec 26, 1997 at 14:03:23 (EST)
___Jim -:- Re: He is the fake lord and you cover it up -:- Fri, Dec 26, 1997 at 20:20:53 (EST)
___Jim -:- Re: He is the fake lord and you cover it up -:- Fri, Dec 26, 1997 at 20:47:34 (EST)
___Another Current Premie -:- Re: He is the fake lord and you cover it up -:- Fri, Dec 26, 1997 at 21:18:17 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: He is the fake lord and you cover it up -:- Fri, Dec 26, 1997 at 22:35:36 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: He is the fake lord and you cover it up -:- Fri, Dec 26, 1997 at 22:38:33 (EST)
___A -:- Re: speak for yourself, only. -:- Sat, Dec 27, 1997 at 23:28:58 (EST)

John Cavad -:- Mental Illness -:- Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 01:54:50 (EST)
___Mr Ex -:- Re: Mental Illness -:- Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 04:54:27 (EST)
___A -:- Re: Mental Illness -:- Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 13:08:16 (EST)
___his idols -:- Re: Mental Illness -:- Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 16:46:57 (EST)
___op -:- Re: Mental Illness -:- Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 20:41:03 (EST)
___what about the -:- songs! -:- Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 22:49:21 (EST)
___CD -:- Re: Mental Illness -:- Wed, Dec 24, 1997 at 00:10:11 (EST)
___CD -:- Re: songs! -:- Wed, Dec 24, 1997 at 00:36:29 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: songs! -:- Wed, Dec 24, 1997 at 01:14:49 (EST)
___action -:- reaction -:- Wed, Dec 24, 1997 at 16:47:15 (EST)
___CD -:- Re: songs! -:- Wed, Dec 24, 1997 at 22:01:03 (EST)
___John C -:- Re: Mental Illness -:- Fri, Dec 26, 1997 at 03:31:48 (EST)

to war?or something -:- else. calling mr. ex -:- Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 00:33:17 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: else. calling mr. ex -:- Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 00:47:03 (EST)
___Ms. Katie -:- To war? calling mr. bill -:- Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 00:50:06 (EST)
___howdy Jw -:- Re: else. calling mr. ex -:- Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 01:04:04 (EST)
___kathryn -:- the quick -:- Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 01:18:58 (EST)
___Mr Ex -:- Re: else. calling mr. ex -:- Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 05:49:42 (EST)
___have you heard -:- the festival songs? -:- Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 08:47:39 (EST)
___Kathryn -:- direct action -:- Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 09:12:26 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: else. calling mr. ex -:- Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 10:16:21 (EST)
___Mr Ex -:- Re: else. calling mr. ex -:- Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 10:55:12 (EST)
___Q -:- Re: else. calling mr. ex -:- Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 11:37:14 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: else. calling mr. ex -:- Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 13:16:18 (EST)
___bftb -:- Re: else. calling mr. ex -:- Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 13:57:06 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: else. calling mr. ex -:- Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 15:14:17 (EST)
___bftb -:- Re: else. calling mr. ex -:- Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 16:29:32 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: else. calling mr. ex -:- Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 16:51:42 (EST)
___Qless -:- newborn opposition will grow -:- Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 16:52:00 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: newborn opposition will grow -:- Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 17:01:55 (EST)
___thanks -:- x-man -:- Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 17:05:26 (EST)
___op -:- Re: To war? calling mr. bill -:- Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 20:07:44 (EST)
___op -:- Re: the quick -:- Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 20:11:16 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: To war? calling mr. bill -:- Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 20:30:57 (EST)
___Q-less -:- Re: else. calling mr. ex -:- Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 23:14:45 (EST)
___countdown -:- Re: newborn opposition will grow -:- Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 23:22:36 (EST)
___bahari -:- the trapped -:- Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 23:31:55 (EST)
___op -:- Re: the trapped -:- Wed, Dec 24, 1997 at 02:26:51 (EST)
___couldn't resist -:- Re: the trapped -:- Wed, Dec 24, 1997 at 18:01:30 (EST)
___more -:- crock -:- Fri, Dec 26, 1997 at 05:15:13 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: the trapped -:- Fri, Dec 26, 1997 at 14:17:51 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: the trapped -:- Fri, Dec 26, 1997 at 14:30:49 (EST)

John Cavad -:- Average Life of Premie -:- Mon, Dec 22, 1997 at 23:34:20 (EST)

John Cavad -:- A Rich Man -:- Mon, Dec 22, 1997 at 16:39:57 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: A Rich Man -:- Mon, Dec 22, 1997 at 23:22:10 (EST)
___John C -:- Re: A Rich Man -:- Mon, Dec 22, 1997 at 23:52:02 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: A Rich Man -:- Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 00:55:06 (EST)
___he's getting at least 6 million -:- Re: A Rich Man -:- Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 00:56:39 (EST)
___Bobby -:- Re: A Rich Man -:- Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 08:32:34 (EST)
___Michael -:- Re: A Rich Man -:- Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 13:52:59 (EST)
___dont let the -:- word throw you -:- Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 23:10:46 (EST)

John Cavad -:- The bright side of Satsang -:- Mon, Dec 22, 1997 at 16:24:01 (EST)
___8 times -:- 365 -:- Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 01:43:06 (EST)
___minimum -:- 10 times 365 for me -:- Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 01:46:10 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: 365 -:- Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 10:13:05 (EST)
___John K. -:- Re: The bright side of Satsang -:- Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 11:40:13 (EST)
___John Cavad -:- Re: The bright side of Satsang -:- Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 12:22:47 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: The bright side of Satsang -:- Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 12:52:25 (EST)
___John K. -:- Re: The bright side of Satsang -:- Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 13:07:41 (EST)
___John Cavad -:- Re: The bright side of Satsang -:- Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 13:14:55 (EST)
___John C -:- Re: The bright side of Satsang -:- Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 13:20:27 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: The bright side of Satsang -:- Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 13:22:39 (EST)
___John C -:- Re: The bright side of Satsang -:- Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 13:25:37 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: The bright side of Satsang -:- Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 13:31:28 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: The bright side of Satsang -:- Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 13:33:52 (EST)
___John K. -:- Re: The bright side of Satsang -:- Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 14:27:42 (EST)
___John C -:- Re: The bright side of Satsang -:- Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 15:03:31 (EST)
___John K. -:- Re: The bright side of Satsang -:- Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 15:31:15 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: The bright side of Satsang -:- Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 16:05:22 (EST)
___JK -:- Re: The bright side of Satsang -:- Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 17:25:44 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: The bright side of Satsang -:- Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 18:33:58 (EST)
___names -:- side of Satsang -:- Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 23:39:18 (EST)
___Watch it, bill -:- Henry is a great name -:- Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 23:47:04 (EST)
___char not anand -:- anymore -:- Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 23:49:20 (EST)
___john -:- Re: anymore -:- Wed, Dec 24, 1997 at 18:20:41 (EST)
___john2 -:- Re: anymore -:- Wed, Dec 24, 1997 at 18:33:02 (EST)
___john3 -:- Re: anymore -:- Wed, Dec 24, 1997 at 18:39:07 (EST)

John Cavad -:- Why Change Gurus? -:- Mon, Dec 22, 1997 at 16:17:25 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: Why Change Gurus? -:- Mon, Dec 22, 1997 at 17:28:15 (EST)
___John C -:- Re: Why Change Gurus? -:- Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 02:06:25 (EST)
___bftb -:- Re: Why Change Gurus? -:- Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 15:29:01 (EST)

Nigel -:- Knowledge and Evolution -:- Mon, Dec 22, 1997 at 14:06:06 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: Knowledge and Evolution -:- Mon, Dec 22, 1997 at 14:31:13 (EST)
___great post -:- nigel -:- Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 01:57:08 (EST)
___bftb -:- Re: Knowledge and Evolution -:- Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 15:00:33 (EST)
___X -:- Re: Knowledge and Evolution -:- Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 23:20:13 (EST)
___Nigel -:- Re: Knowledge and Evolution -:- Wed, Dec 24, 1997 at 19:01:16 (EST)

Nigel -:- At the feet of the autocrat -:- Mon, Dec 22, 1997 at 14:01:57 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: At the feet of the autocrat -:- Mon, Dec 22, 1997 at 15:15:46 (EST)
___Q -:- Re: At the feet of the autocrat -:- Mon, Dec 22, 1997 at 23:44:27 (EST)
___to -:- Qless -:- Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 01:53:15 (EST)
___Nigel -:- Re: At the feet of the autocrat -:- Wed, Dec 24, 1997 at 19:33:34 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: At the feet of the autocrat -:- Thurs, Dec 25, 1997 at 13:52:30 (EST)
___Mr Ex -:- Re: At the feet of the autocrat -:- Fri, Dec 26, 1997 at 05:34:50 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: At the feet of the autocrat -:- Fri, Dec 26, 1997 at 06:22:22 (EST)
___Mr Ex -:- Re: At the feet of the autocrat -:- Fri, Dec 26, 1997 at 09:41:20 (EST)
___Mr Ex -:- Re: At the feet of the autocrat -:- Fri, Dec 26, 1997 at 10:39:51 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: At the feet of the autocrat -:- Fri, Dec 26, 1997 at 13:07:54 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: At the feet of the autocrat -:- Fri, Dec 26, 1997 at 15:33:12 (EST)
___Jim -:- Re: At the feet of the autocrat -:- Fri, Dec 26, 1997 at 21:01:34 (EST)
___Mr Ex -:- Invitation to participate -:- Sat, Dec 27, 1997 at 06:03:15 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: Invitation to participate -:- Sat, Dec 27, 1997 at 08:38:58 (EST)

Mr Ex -:- Some Homework -:- Mon, Dec 22, 1997 at 10:32:41 (EST)
___John K. -:- Re: Some Homework -:- Mon, Dec 22, 1997 at 11:14:49 (EST)
___d@vid -:- Re: Some Homework -:- Mon, Dec 22, 1997 at 11:49:46 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: Some Homework -:- Mon, Dec 22, 1997 at 13:06:24 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: Some Homework -:- Mon, Dec 22, 1997 at 13:35:03 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: Some Homework (to John K) -:- Mon, Dec 22, 1997 at 16:35:38 (EST)
___D@vid -:- Re: Some Homework -:- Mon, Dec 22, 1997 at 17:33:41 (EST)
___Q -:- Re: Some Homework -:- Mon, Dec 22, 1997 at 22:54:28 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: Some Homework -:- Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 02:34:47 (EST)
___JohnK -:- Re: Some Homework (to John K) -:- Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 12:57:47 (EST)



Date: Fri, Dec 26, 1997 at 08:43:34 (EST)
Poster: Bobby
Email:
To: Everyone
Subject: possible crash of the forum
Message:
The number of posts is getting bigger and bigger. This forum is getting unwieldy. This is tough on users and hardware alike. I'd hate to see the loss of all of these posts. Anybody out there gonna archive this forum? Scott used to do that in forum 1. I would think the simplest way would be by accessing commands available through paradise-serve. Who has the keys?
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Date: Fri, Dec 26, 1997 at 10:11:38 (EST)
Poster: d@vid
Email: ds@ex-premie.org
To: Bobby
Subject: Re: possible crash of the forum
Message:
I've got the keys Bobby. Remind me of your email address and I'll let you have the password. Scott used to do it but he found it took too much of his time. I'm in the same boat, so if you'd be prepared to do it... great. David
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Date: Fri, Dec 26, 1997 at 10:44:07 (EST)
Poster: Bobby
Email: bobby@ptd.net
To: d@vid
Subject: Re: possible crash of the forum
Message:
OK David. I'm willing to give it a shot. I don't have all that much time, but I'll see what I can do. bobby@ptd.net
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Date: Fri, Dec 26, 1997 at 17:47:03 (EST)
Poster: d@vid
Email: d@vid
To: Bobby
Subject: Re: possible crash of the forum
Message:
OK David. I'm willing to give it a shot. I don't have all that much time, but I'll see what I can do. bobby@ptd.net I'm emailing you the info.
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Date: Fri, Dec 26, 1997 at 03:24:50 (EST)
Poster: John Cavad
Email:
To: Everyone
Subject: Any Remaining Momentos?
Message:
I still have the book, "Who is GMJ" I kept since I knew it would forever be out of print and a rare book to own. I also kept a few One Foundation tapes since I did like their music (not lyrics) but I never listen to them. I destroyed the hundreds of propaganda items I accumulated like tapes of GMJ, magazines, photos, buttons, all types of trinkets, etc. What do you all have left? I know you don't have any money since you all gave it away. :)
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Date: Fri, Dec 26, 1997 at 15:55:59 (EST)
Poster: momen
Email: buzzbee
To: John Cavad
Subject: toes (Re: Any Remaining Momentos? )
Message:
everything and then some
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Date: Thurs, Dec 25, 1997 at 22:18:21 (EST)
Poster: Anon
Email:
To: Everyone
Subject: Presentation
Message:
Happy Christmas! I am not sure I was successful in making my point in my recent post entitled ‘A little more BBC?” Firstly I was not suggesting that the Forum should be particularly altered in any way. I believe in freedom of speech just like most people here. I was suggesting that the look of the website as a whole would be enhanced if the editor(s) of the pages refrained from making judgmental passing comments which in my mind belong in the ‘feedback’ section. Visa. There are a surfeit of people who refer to Maharaji and premies with a variety of venomous and colourful expletives such as ‘sad toe-kissers’ etc. without the editor(s) needing to similarly decorate their presentation. Bill B. speaks of ‘love’ and ‘selflessness’ and thus brushes on morality. If the website is claiming any moral high ground it would help if the ill-tempered stuff was left to those who write in. Take as a good example the television programme “Secret Lives” (running currently on Channel 4 I believe.) This programme has delved very factually into the lives of famous and morally influential people such as Kennedy, Ron Hubbard, Margot Fonteyn, Billy Butlin and G. Versace...pulling no punches. It is delivered with such clear, articulate and uncontentious aplomb that it is compelling to watch. I know a lady (now in her 70’s) who regarded Margot Fonteyn as a sort of pillar of virtue and the arts. After the programme, which I suggested she should watch, she was a little less starry- eyed about her former idol than before. She would undoubtedly have quickly switched off the television had there been any obviously biased incivility in the presentation. Similarly, the screening of the programme about Ron Hubbard caused howls of indignation from Scientologists but nevertheless sailed unsensationally through an extraordinary catalogue of facts about the man could leave few in doubt as to the ill-effects of his regime. At the time when Lady Diana and Charles were evidently having their respected affairs, the general public caught wind of this initially through the tabloids. Many people dismissed the tabloid reports as unbelievable. Why? Because tabloids have a high gossip content which is generally considered to be be partly fictitious and sensational . It is also generally accepted that their motivation is less about the telling of truth and more about them making money. When the more respectable news sources ran their versions of the stories the facts became more generally accepted and lo and behold...the next thing we hear is both parties publically stating their truths (presumably to satisfy their consciences and in an attempt to lay the matter to rest with the public and media) The Royal household is now seen in a more prosaic light as a result of all this. One of the things that has been extremely helpful to me in taking ‘a different look’ at the ‘Master' phenomena was reading Mark Jurgensmeyers book ‘Radhasoami Reality’. The author (a professor of sociology and religion, I believe) made a thorough study of the history of the movement in India (including Maharaji’s fathers Guru, SwarupAnand) and throughout his book manages to remain unsensational and polite in his treatment of the subject. Analysing peoples belief systems, after all, is risky business. It is a touchy subject to say the least. Jurgensmeyer presents the bald factual history which in itself loudly proclaims the distinct possibility that “Guru succession” (in the case of the lineage of the SatGurus of the Radhosoami tradition) is usually more about family politics than the passing of a spiritual flame. No where does he need to denigrate or judge the claimed spiritual experiences of the Indian or Western followers. He does however leave the reader with the unmistakable impression that it is healthy to take a good look backstage before throwing in your lot with a Guru. You may find that there are very down to earth explanations to a lot of the seemingly ‘spiritual’ goings-on and the experiences that are being proclaimed. At the very least one learns that there are definitely social pitfalls in this spiritual marketplace and that however sincere, humble and aspiring your soul may be, naivity is not going to pay any dividends at all in your search for Truth there.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 25, 1997 at 22:34:48 (EST)
Poster: John K.
Email:
To: Anon
Subject: Re: Presentation
Message:
I agree...wholeheartedly... but then I already did. I am curious, who are the editors? I honestly didn't even know there were any editors to this web page.
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Date: Fri, Dec 26, 1997 at 05:05:05 (EST)
Poster: Mr Ex
Email:
To: Anon
Subject: Re: Presentation
Message:
Yeah, something like : ‘Maharaji, Divine Light Mission and Elan Vital Inc.’s reality. With all the budgets : The ‘family’, the ‘residence’, the ‘programs’, the plane, videos, etc. The list of Mr PPR’s mistresses, etc Interesting details on his private life. The list of people ripped of and women abused, civil actions against DLM, EV and Mr PPR, people who committed suicide, etc. Could be very enlightening ....
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Date: Fri, Dec 26, 1997 at 08:40:38 (EST)
Poster: Brian (the OP-baiter)
Email: brian@worldnetoh.com
To: Anon
Subject: Re: Presentation
Message:
Anon - I don't know if you remember me or not. We talked a couple of times in the old chat room off of Forum I. I'd like to correspond with you regarding your BBC post and thoughts about the web site. Please send me your email address.
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Date: Fri, Dec 26, 1997 at 10:26:57 (EST)
Poster: d@vid
Email: d@vid
To: Anon
Subject: Re: Presentation
Message:
Anon gazed down from his perch on high and spake thus: I am not sure I was successful in making my point in my recent post entitled ‘A little more BBC?” No Anon, I think that since the majority of people reading here don't live in the UK, your BBC/Ch4 anology would be a bit lost. But never mind, I caught your drift... I was suggesting that the look of the website as a whole would be enhanced if the editor(s) of the pages refrained from making judgmental passing comments which in my mind belong in the ‘feedback’ section. Visa. There are a surfeit of people who refer to Maharaji and premies with a variety of venomous and colourful expletives such as ‘sad toe-kissers’ etc. without the editor(s) needing to similarly decorate their presentation. Excuse the brusquesisity of my dialogue, Anon, but I feel it ill behoves one who is so unwilling to partake of the general cut and thrust to criticise the decoration of my presentation. In other words, If you feel like getting your hands dirty and helping out with some contributions to the site, then I'd be more willing to accept your views. d@vid P.S. I don't believe that you have lost the archives. I can't imagine that anyone with such a compulsively tidy mind would simply loose them. Why not show that you are willing to contribute more than silly criticisms by putting them back on line?
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Date: Fri, Dec 26, 1997 at 18:52:24 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: John K.
Subject: Re: Presentation
Message:
I agree...wholeheartedly... but then I already did. I am curious, who are the editors? I honestly didn't even know there were any editors to this web page. Hi John - to answer your question, the editor of the web site is David Stirling (a.k.a. D@vid, ds, etc. etc.) He is resigning his position at the end of 1997, though, and there will be a new site editor. We don't know who yet, though (David, the envelope, please?). The forum isn't edited in anyway, in case you were wondering. P.S. Scott Perry and Jim Heller also help with the web page in a less visible way, as do a few others.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Dec 26, 1997 at 19:52:17 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: Anon
Subject: Re: Presentation
Message:
Happy Christmas! I am not sure I was successful in making my point in my recent post entitled ‘A little more BBC?” Firstly I was not suggesting that the Forum should be particularly altered in any way. I believe in freedom of speech just like most people here. I was suggesting that the look of the website as a whole would be enhanced if the editor(s) of the pages refrained from making judgmental passing comments which in my mind belong in the ‘feedback’ section. Visa. There are a surfeit of people who refer to Maharaji and premies with a variety of venomous and colourful expletives such as ‘sad toe-kissers’ etc. without the editor(s) needing to similarly decorate their presentation. Bill B. speaks of ‘love’ and ‘selflessness’ and thus brushes on morality. If the website is claiming any moral high ground it would help if the ill-tempered stuff was left to those who write in. Take as a good example the television programme “Secret Lives” (running currently on Channel 4 I believe.) This programme has delved very factually into the lives of famous and morally influential people such as Kennedy, Ron Hubbard, Margot Fonteyn, Billy Butlin and G. Versace...pulling no punches. It is delivered with such clear, articulate and uncontentious aplomb that it is compelling to watch. I know a lady (now in her 70’s) who regarded Margot Fonteyn as a sort of pillar of virtue and the arts. After the programme, which I suggested she should watch, she was a little less starry- eyed about her former idol than before. She would undoubtedly have quickly switched off the television had there been any obviously biased incivility in the presentation. Similarly, the screening of the programme about Ron Hubbard caused howls of indignation from Scientologists but nevertheless sailed unsensationally through an extraordinary catalogue of facts about the man could leave few in doubt as to the ill-effects of his regime. At the time when Lady Diana and Charles were evidently having their respected affairs, the general public caught wind of this initially through the tabloids. Many people dismissed the tabloid reports as unbelievable. Why? Because tabloids have a high gossip content which is generally considered to be be partly fictitious and sensational . It is also generally accepted that their motivation is less about the telling of truth and more about them making money. When the more respectable news sources ran their versions of the stories the facts became more generally accepted and lo and behold...the next thing we hear is both parties publically stating their truths (presumably to satisfy their consciences and in an attempt to lay the matter to rest with the public and media) The Royal household is now seen in a more prosaic light as a result of all this. One of the things that has been extremely helpful to me in taking ‘a different look’ at the ‘Master' phenomena was reading Mark Jurgensmeyers book ‘Radhasoami Reality’. The author (a professor of sociology and religion, I believe) made a thorough study of the history of the movement in India (including Maharaji’s fathers Guru, SwarupAnand) and throughout his book manages to remain unsensational and polite in his treatment of the subject. Analysing peoples belief systems, after all, is risky business. It is a touchy subject to say the least. Jurgensmeyer presents the bald factual history which in itself loudly proclaims the distinct possibility that “Guru succession” (in the case of the lineage of the SatGurus of the Radhosoami tradition) is usually more about family politics than the passing of a spiritual flame. No where does he need to denigrate or judge the claimed spiritual experiences of the Indian or Western followers. He does however leave the reader with the unmistakable impression that it is healthy to take a good look backstage before throwing in your lot with a Guru. You may find that there are very down to earth explanations to a lot of the seemingly ‘spiritual’ goings-on and the experiences that are being proclaimed. At the very least one learns that there are definitely social pitfalls in this spiritual marketplace and that however sincere, humble and aspiring your soul may be, naivity is not going to pay any dividends at all in your search for Truth there. Anon, I'm rather sympathetic with your views in some respects. Here are my two cents worth. I agree that David did much to improve on Scott's excellent beginning. That has to be said. Thanks again to both. I also agree that the format itself could perhaps be a little more ..oh, je ne sais quoit...dignified perhaps. We cultivated childlike qualities as premies. We rebel against our big, bad foster dad like teenagers. Still, we're probably pretty close to adulthood in other respects. That's something we've each learned or are learning in spite of Maharaji. Somehow we should reflect that in our efforts. In terms of personal posts, I think Maharaji in particular invites the splenetic. Anyone who feels their sap run accordingly should, by all means, enjoy tearing a strip off their former master despite the mixed metaphor. Last night, for Christmas, we watched the Brando remake of 'The Island of Doctor Moreau.' When I saw the fat Brando enthroned before his miserable creatures, I didn't once think of Maharaji. What? You think I'm obsessed or something? The thought never crossed my mind. Today, however, the analogy leaps at my throat. Moreau tinkered with nature for power and the pleasures of worship. If he'd been even slightly successful in his 'mission' Maharaji would have done the same. That is, he tried to stamp out our minds, our personalities and, for a few years, our gonads. Like the tragically befuddled monsters in the movie, we were left wondering just who we were after all. Maharaji, like Moreau, told us he was our 'father' and not to worry. Un uh. The folks who do the exposes you mention probably weren't themselves specimens like we were. When we blast Maharaji we're offering him the one kind of voice he never heard even approximated in his protected menagerie. It must be deeply cathartic to spit, albeit figuratively, at the feet we were once forced to kiss. In short, although I think the page titles, graphics and what not should be somewhat 'adult', the actual expression people choose to speak to and about their former lord should be as they wish.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 25, 1997 at 21:08:48 (EST)
Poster: A TRUE PREMIE
Email: jjames@aol.com
To: Everyone
Subject: ONE MORE CRUCIFIED
Message:
I WAS BROWSING AROUND AND FOUND THIS SITE. I THOUGHT GREAT, GURU MAHARAJI IS REALLY GETTING HIS MESSAGE OF PEACE AND LOVE AND FAIRNESS OUT TO THE WORLD THROUGH HIS OWN WEB PAGE! I WAS SHOCKED AND AMAZED AT HOW CRULE AND HARD HEARTED YOU ALL ARE TO THE KINDESS AND GENTLEST LORD WHO ONLY WANTS YOU TO BE HAPPY AND SAFE. DO YOU TURNCOATES SUPPLY YOUR OWN NAILS TO NAIL UP ANOTHER OF GODS MESSENGERS. TO THINK THAT GOD IS KIND ENOUGH TO SEND SOMEONE TO YOU BASELESS FOOLS WHO SPEND YOUR TIME SPITTING AT THE KING OF LOVE. YOU SHOULD BE ASHAMED!!! YOU SHOULD BOW YOUR HEADS AND WEEP IN SHAME FOR INSULTING SUCH A KIND PERSON AS GURU MAHARAJI!!! YOU NEED TO IMMEDIATELY BOW DOWN AND ASK HIS FORGIVENESS AND HOPE THAT HE CONTINUES TO FORGET YOUR STUPIDITY AND CRULE WORDS. YOU HAVE BEEN FREELY GIVEN THE WORD OF GOD AND HIS KNOWLEDGE TO SAVE YOU AND WHAT DO YOU DO? YOU FLING DAGGER AFTER DAGGER OF INSULTS AND HATE TO THIS TIRELESS WORKER OF GOD. WHAT'S YOUR PROBLEM? DID YOU INTEND TO DECEIVE GOD BY TAKING HIS KNOWLEDGE AND GRACE AND THEN SPITTING ON HIM. YOU ALL PROBABLY HAVE DONE THIS FOR LIFETIMES. YOU ALL PROBABLY WERE THE ONES WHO NAILED JESUS ON THE CROSS!!!
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Date: Thurs, Dec 25, 1997 at 22:18:00 (EST)
Poster: Brian
Email:
To: A TRUE PREMIE
Subject: Re: ONE MORE CRUCIFIED
Message:
I WAS BROWSING AROUND AND FOUND THIS SITE. First, when you post anywhere on the Internet do not use only uppercase letters (capitals) unless you are yelling. I THOUGHT GREAT, GURU MAHARAJI IS REALLY GETTING HIS MESSAGE OF PEACE AND LOVE AND FAIRNESS OUT TO THE WORLD THROUGH HIS OWN WEB PAGE! You were sadly mistaken, as were the rest of us when we bought into his professed "mission". MJ is in the money-gathering business, not in the message-spreading business. You would do well to get over your illusions now. Check out
www.ex-premie.org for more information. You can even grab a quick Knowledge review without leaving home, as the meditation techniques are freely available there. This is just our little way of spreading "HIS MESSAGE OF PEACE AND LOVE AND FAIRNESS OUT TO THE WORLD". And leave God out of it. He doesn't even WATCH videos, let alone buy them. Welcome to the real world.
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Date: Fri, Dec 26, 1997 at 00:04:57 (EST)
Poster: Sir David
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: A TRUE PREMIE
Subject: Re: ONE MORE CRUCIFIED
Message:
Cruel and heard hearted, the people on this page are not. Ask yourself this question: If people feel anger and resentment against person A, whose fault is it? Is it the fault of the people who feel the anger and resentment or is it the fault of person A? People do not feel antagonistic against others without good reason. Find out the reasons why people feel antagonistic before making a judgement on them.
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Date: Fri, Dec 26, 1997 at 03:08:50 (EST)
Poster: A 15 yr veteran of BS
Email:
To: Sir David
Subject: Re: ONE MORE CRUCIFIED
Message:
Dear Premie, You are brainwashed or you're just a flake. Which one is it? You can get help. Don't despair.
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Date: Fri, Dec 26, 1997 at 06:15:40 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: A 15 yr veteran of BS
Subject: Re: ONE MORE CRUCIFIED
Message:
Dear Premie, You are brainwashed or you're just a flake. Which one is it? You can get help. Don't despair. No, he is not brainwashed. He is a follower of the Radhasoami faith, and part of it is having a Guru. It's not civilized of you to pass deniggrating remarks about someone's religious beliefs.
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Date: Fri, Dec 26, 1997 at 12:50:44 (EST)
Poster: John Cavad
Email:
To: A TRUE PREMIE
Subject: Re: ONE MORE CRUCIFIED
Message:
Dear Jim Danna, We know up in Oregon there are a lot of people like you having faith in such things as the Unitarian Universalist Church. That's great, and God bless you. But keep in mind this site is for our own sacred church: "Help: We were brainwashed and abused and robbed by our guru!" We all wish you the best.
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Date: Fri, Dec 26, 1997 at 13:43:43 (EST)
Poster: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net
To: Mili
Subject: Re: ONE MORE CRUCIFIED
Message:
Dear Premie, You are brainwashed or you're just a flake. Which one is it? You can get help. Don't despair. No, he is not brainwashed. He is a follower of the Radhasoami faith, and part of it is having a Guru. It's not civilized of you to pass deniggrating remarks about someone's religious beliefs. Gee, Mili, I thought that the one of the points of Knowledge was that it WAS NOT a religion! That was what they told me back in 1973 "you can be a Christian, a Muslim, a Buddhist, a Carrot Worshipper and still practice this knowledge." Now you claim that it is a religion and we have to respect your religious beliefs! I am shocked! To the True Premie: IT WASN'T US WHO NAILED JESUS ON TO THE CROSS, IT WAS THOSE DANG ROMANS> MAHARAJI IS NO JESUS! REMEMBER HOLY NAME AND QUIT SHOUTING!
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Date: Fri, Dec 26, 1997 at 15:40:18 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Mickey the Pharisee
Subject: Re: ONE MORE CRUCIFIED
Message:
Well, Mickey, according to the ex-premie site, it IS a religion - Radhasoami. But, here it is from the horse's mouth: From an event in Grand Baie on August 31, 1996: 'And so lies a feeling in the heart of every human being the producer of the joy, of the greatest joy, that can accepted by every living being. Sorrow and pain are not the elements that human beings automatically would we like. No. But joy is. So now the issue becomes to find that one element that can give me that joy that is from me, in my heart--not borrowed from somewhere, not a dogma. This what I am talking about is not a religion. Why? Because it existed before all the religions. In its neutrality of what I am speaking of [referring to an earlier reference to the neutrality and simplicity of water and air], it is so simple and it is so neutral. Of course you've got people who, you know, they like one religion over another religion, and other people who like other religion over other religion. And then there are people who like no religion. And what I am talking about is so neutral--and that's why it goes beyond religion, it's so neutral. ...It is inherent; it is not created, it is inherent. And where does it reside? Not on top of a mountain, not locked up behind some doors, but in the heart of every human being. hat is the greatest temple there will ever be, because that's the only temple that requires no doors. ... If it was an external object, we could forget it. Human being is mortal by nature, encompassing within him or her the very thing that is immortal by nature. This is as close at it gets. The line between the infinite and the finite is you. You are very finite, and within you is the very infinite; you are very changeable, and within you it's the unchangeable; you are a prisoner, and within you is the freedom. Quite in reverse: For a prisoner, the freedom is outside. For a human being the freedom is inside.'
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Date: Fri, Dec 26, 1997 at 15:59:38 (EST)
Poster: into the
Email: buzzbee
To: Mili
Subject: quicksand (Re: ONE MORE CRUCIFIED)
Message:
he is cordially invited to go do somethings else then.
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Date: Fri, Dec 26, 1997 at 16:00:53 (EST)
Poster: Mike
Email: bigguy32@juno.com
To: A TRUE PREMIE
Subject: Re: ONE MORE CRUCIFIED
Message:
I WAS BROWSING AROUND AND FOUND THIS SITE. I THOUGHT GREAT, GURU MAHARAJI IS REALLY GETTING HIS MESSAGE OF PEACE AND LOVE AND FAIRNESS OUT TO THE WORLD THROUGH HIS OWN WEB PAGE! I WAS SHOCKED AND AMAZED AT HOW CRULE AND HARD HEARTED YOU ALL ARE TO THE KINDESS AND GENTLEST LORD WHO ONLY WANTS YOU TO BE HAPPY AND SAFE. DO YOU TURNCOATES SUPPLY YOUR OWN NAILS TO NAIL UP ANOTHER OF GODS MESSENGERS. TO THINK THAT GOD IS KIND ENOUGH TO SEND SOMEONE TO YOU BASELESS FOOLS WHO SPEND YOUR TIME SPITTING AT THE KING OF LOVE. YOU SHOULD BE ASHAMED!!! YOU SHOULD BOW YOUR HEADS AND WEEP IN SHAME FOR INSULTING SUCH A KIND PERSON AS GURU MAHARAJI!!! YOU NEED TO IMMEDIATELY BOW DOWN AND ASK HIS FORGIVENESS AND HOPE THAT HE CONTINUES TO FORGET YOUR STUPIDITY AND CRULE WORDS. YOU HAVE BEEN FREELY GIVEN THE WORD OF GOD AND HIS KNOWLEDGE TO SAVE YOU AND WHAT DO YOU DO? YOU FLING DAGGER AFTER DAGGER OF INSULTS AND HATE TO THIS TIRELESS WORKER OF GOD. WHAT'S YOUR PROBLEM? DID YOU INTEND TO DECEIVE GOD BY TAKING HIS KNOWLEDGE AND GRACE AND THEN SPITTING ON HIM. YOU ALL PROBABLY HAVE DONE THIS FOR LIFETIMES. YOU ALL PROBABLY WERE THE ONES WHO NAILED JESUS ON THE CROSS!!! Dear Mr. or Ms. JJames, it was not our intension to hurt you or any other person by our venting of frustration and anger over things we experienced. Obviously, you think that we all personally attacked you which is not true. This forum from what I've experienced is here to provide a place for everyone to express their opinion and talk about their experiences. Many of us have had the experience of DLM pier pressure to shutup when it came to things we didn't understand or support. Also, you may not know this (or maybe you do), when you type in upper case... you are effectively yelling. In either case, we can hear you fine so there's no need to yell at strangers. There are many practicing premies who visit our forum and disagree with the ex-premies with a mutually unspoken agreement to agree to disagree. I personally admire your devotion to GMJ (no offense) and remember when I felt the same as you do now. That's why it hurts to hear what you've accused us all of, and using shame and blame to get your point across.
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Date: Fri, Dec 26, 1997 at 20:04:29 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: A TRUE PREMIE
Subject: Re: ONE MORE CRUCIFIED
Message:
Block letters are the sign of the devil, friend. Everyone knows that.
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Date: Fri, Dec 26, 1997 at 20:13:28 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: Mili
Subject: Re: ONE MORE CRUCIFIED
Message:
Dear Premie, You are brainwashed or you're just a flake. Which one is it? You can get help. Don't despair. No, he is not brainwashed. He is a follower of the Radhasoami faith, and part of it is having a Guru. It's not civilized of you to pass deniggrating remarks about someone's religious beliefs. Mili, you fool, this asshole tells us all we should bow our heads in shame, beg Maharaji's forgiveness, retract our "crule" words and quit spitting. And you say it's impolite to ridicule his 'religious'beliefs. You're incredible. Again I read this page for a few reasons. One is to learn more about Maharaji -- the kind of stuff they never taught me back on the farm. Another is to share some fun, sympathy and friendship with a few people who were abducted by the same alien craft I was when I was 19. Then there's the 'public service' aspect of warning those who might be interested about one very sly, corrupt motherfucker. Of course there's the simple pleasure of telling Maharaji to go fuck himself. But the real pleasure I get from it all is reading the idiotic posts of premies. Thanks again.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 25, 1997 at 08:29:45 (EST)
Poster: to the person who
Email: bb
To: Everyone
Subject: e-mailed
Message:
Today my wife took the 16 yr old to one of her families that she sort of adopted. She volunteers for the state child protection agency and gets word on some sorry cases and works with them. Today was bring christmas presents to kids that aren't going to get anything really,(richest state,in richest country) and so in one house the women is crying because her four kids were going to get almost nothing and they have sparse furniture ect. She is so happy that wrapped presents arrived. good ones too. The surly selfish 16 yr old is dumfounded by what he sees and he comes back a changed kid. my point? one suggestion is to orient towards doing some things for others. In loving one another through our works we bring an increase of grace and a growth in love. You never know what just a simple smile will do. It may happen that a mere smile, a short visit, doing something for someone,something small, very small-may in fact our love of god in action. jesus said 'love one another as I have loved you.' Thats a line we wont be able to hear someone else we know say. Sometimes we can feel that no one loves us but if you see all the things we have been given free in this life and how much natural beauty and richness has been manifested for our use and our fun, and the life itself gives our heart contentment if we feel it and have a request to feel full and the saying (again by jesus), 'is it is better to give than recieve, for in giving' ... i forget the exact quote, maybe someone will remember, ...'we recieve, and ...' If we are able to have that flow of love going in our life with others and our true friend, and be more willing to see the good and beautful things around us, we will be able to bring peace and love to our little part of the world. We will see more and more all the opportunities that are in front of us. Loneliness eats many people up, abandonment is an awful poverty, but love generates love, like a smile can generate a smile, love brings a sense of wealth and also power, that is the real way the power is dispensed. That is why people are tied into a religion time and time again. The power is available with it's harmony and richness through the act of loving. Safer for you, and safer for all. Somebody loves us too,--god himself. We have been created to love and be loved. You will see the tenderness of god when you love, you may be a loser in every other way but if you are loving you will not feel like a loser at all. You will know that in the most important thing in life you are a-ok. The torment possible in life will not be yours. Make love have a home in you and you will feel content and rich and complete. The lotus (so-called) of the heart will bloom be your loving kindness and mercy. Big ornery people have an achilles heel and that is a genuinely rich heart of another, there are countless stories of a heart of love changeing the course of those around them for the better. Your life can be a beautiful example of love, Your life can be something beautiful for god. Your life can be something beautiful for you. And you don't need one store bought thing to accomplish that, you don't need to worship god in some way, you don't need to think about god in any way, in your love for others you will be covering all the bases and this is not some dreamy, wishful thinking, this is the nature of our life. So much good has come from doing for others and the power friend can help you make someones' day by you getting inspired to do somethng that you have no idea, but is exactly what the other person was asking god for quietly. The fullness of our heart is expressed in our eyes,in our touch, in what we write,in what we say, in the way we walk, the way we recieve, the way we serve and other ways. Even if we are totally alone, love is our best road and just by loveing/appreciating our life itself we are doing the most reccomended thing. In the silence of the heart we can also feel the presence of that good, it's not the only way because the feeling of god is independent from the opening and closeing of our eyelids, independent of listening, independent from our troubles and circustances, a little humility, a little effort, and we are in the flow of love. If we can love each breath, each moments motion, we must first love life, and extend our good towards it in it's many forms. Of course this life is loaded with traps and we have anger and other tools as available capacities for prudent use. Not for manipulation of others for our own desires, as pawns in our own self absorption, as theater peices in our sadly played out movie of our misperception of this gift of life. That so many people waste thier time is warning enough for you to not waste yours. And to begin. Start today!
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Date: Sat, Dec 27, 1997 at 10:17:39 (EST)
Poster: From that person
Email:
To: to the person who
Subject: Re: e-mailed
Message:
Your post was very much appreciated and did round off a warm Christmas day with my children, perfectly. Thanks for this heartfelt and most generous response.
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Date: Sat, Dec 27, 1997 at 21:49:51 (EST)
Poster: christ
Email: bb
To: From that person
Subject: mas (Re: e-mailed)
Message:
I'm glad it happened. It was a nice christmas present for me. I learned a couple things.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 25, 1997 at 00:41:52 (EST)
Poster: Mike
Email: bigguy32@juno.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Merry Christmas and Happy New Year
Message:
Howdy, I just wanted to wish everyone a very Merry Christmas and a pleasent and Happy New Year. Only 100 or so shopping weeks left before the year 2000! This century is having a blue light special in the middle way isle!
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Date: Thurs, Dec 25, 1997 at 17:59:22 (EST)
Poster: Mr. Oxymoron
Email: mu
To: Mike
Subject: Re: Merry Christmas and Happy New Year
Message:
Howdy, I just wanted to wish everyone a very Merry Christmas and a pleasent and Happy New Year. Only 100 or so shopping weeks left before the year 2000! This century is having a blue light special in the middle way isle! mike - year 2000 jokes. keep your day job and leave the comedy to professionals
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Date: Thurs, Dec 25, 1997 at 20:47:14 (EST)
Poster: Mike
Email: bigguy32@juno.com
To: Mr. Oxymoron
Subject: Re: Merry Christmas and Happy New Year
Message:
Howdy, I just wanted to wish everyone a very Merry Christmas and a pleasent and Happy New Year. Only 100 or so shopping weeks left before the year 2000! This century is having a blue light special in the middle way isle! mike - year 2000 jokes. keep your day job and leave the comedy to professionals Merry Christmas and Happy New Year! I'll give your comments the respect their due ;)
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Date: Thurs, Dec 25, 1997 at 20:50:40 (EST)
Poster: Mike
Email: bigguy32@juno.com
To: Mr. OxyMoron
Subject: Re: Merry Christmas and Happy New Year
Message:
Howdy, I just wanted to wish everyone a very Merry Christmas and a pleasent and Happy New Year. Only 100 or so shopping weeks left before the year 2000! This century is having a blue light special in the middle way isle! mike - year 2000 jokes. keep your day job and leave the comedy to professionals Merry Christmas and Happy New Year! I'll give your comments the respect their due ;) Merry Christmas and Happy New Year! I'll give your comments the respect they are due ;)
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Date: Wed, Dec 24, 1997 at 23:10:15 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: Everyone
Subject: premie christmases - remember?
Message:
The first few years I had Knowledge were so exciting. On Christmas eve we'd sometimes go to midnight mass -- after sastang, arti and meditation of course. Our hearts were bursting with one shared secret: He was here. Jesus, Maharaji, hey, even Bal Bhagwan Ji, they were all mixed in there somehow. 'Jesus plus' perhaps. Or 'Jesus extraordinaire.' Whatever, He was here. That's why it's completely appropriate to ridicule Maharaji's fat, stubby form. Back then we were taught to worship it. I used to wonder how much more my heart would have to open before I, too, could see the magic of his 'beautiful' body like my Durga Ji, Goddess of Love. Yes, at times I saw the sun-god in his golden visage. But it wasn't enough, obviously. I wonder what Bal Bhagwan Ji's doing tonight. OP, did you ever do the ashram-to-midnight-mass thing? I know it wasn't universal in premiedom. Indeed, it might have been a Canadian thing (I understand there are slightly more Catholics proportionally in Canada than the states. And, even if there aren't, I'll say there are and we can just say that's my reality, okay?) How 'bout you, Annie? Ever analogize your master to Christ? Thought ever cross your mind? Was that real? True? Yes? No? Maharaji certainly indulged. Lots of his old satsangs or early question-and-answer sessions 'suggest' the connection. Fantasy? Yes, of course. Question is: who's fantasy was it? (By the way, OP, did you ever express your view about Maharaji's desire to have you and other followers continue to chit chat about him on the net like this? If so, I missed it.)
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Date: Wed, Dec 24, 1997 at 23:55:55 (EST)
Poster: Scrooge
Email:
To: Jim
Subject: Good work Jim (Re: premie christmases - remember?)
Message:
A fine job! You do understand what this cold harsh world is all about. Squash them when you can. Revenge is sweeter than good wine. No need for petty joy! A raise maybe?
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Date: Fri, Dec 26, 1997 at 12:05:14 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: Jim
Subject: Re: premie christmases - remember?
Message:
The first few years I had Knowledge were so exciting. On Christmas eve we'd sometimes go to midnight mass -- after sastang, arti and meditation of course. Our hearts were bursting with one shared secret: He was here. Jesus, Maharaji, hey, even Bal Bhagwan Ji, they were all mixed in there somehow. 'Jesus plus' perhaps. Or 'Jesus extraordinaire.' Whatever, He was here. That's why it's completely appropriate to ridicule Maharaji's fat, stubby form. Back then we were taught to worship it. I used to wonder how much more my heart would have to open before I, too, could see the magic of his 'beautiful' body like my Durga Ji, Goddess of Love. Yes, at times I saw the sun-god in his golden visage. But it wasn't enough, obviously. I wonder what Bal Bhagwan Ji's doing tonight. OP, did you ever do the ashram-to-midnight-mass thing? I know it wasn't universal in premiedom. Indeed, it might have been a Canadian thing (I understand there are slightly more Catholics proportionally in Canada than the states. And, even if there aren't, I'll say there are and we can just say that's my reality, okay?) How 'bout you, Annie? Ever analogize your master to Christ? Thought ever cross your mind? Was that real? True? Yes? No? Maharaji certainly indulged. Lots of his old satsangs or early question-and-answer sessions 'suggest' the connection. Fantasy? Yes, of course. Question is: who's fantasy was it? (By the way, OP, did you ever express your view about Maharaji's desire to have you and other followers continue to chit chat about him on the net like this? If so, I missed it.) Yes, even in the USA, we did the ashram-to-midnight-mass thing. I was raised catholic, but it appeared to me that the Jewish ashram residents were more into it than the catholics. Maybe it was more novel to them. We'd have satsang and then go over to the catholic cathedral (the one in San Antonio was amazing. It's a huge Spanish church from the 18th century and the mass was so much more colorful and joyful than the German-catholic rituals of my youth.] Now, in San Francisco it was better. A group of us went to Most Holy Redeemer Parish in the Castrol District. [For those of you that don't know, the Castro District of SF is probably at least 90% gay and lesbian.] Anyway that church had a midnight mass that only gay people could do. There was a string orchestra, two choirs, incredibly tasteful decorations, and a big breakfast afterwards. People there were very joyous, which was somewhat of a contrast to the satsang service we had just attended, where people talked about how confused they were, how much they "longed" to kiss M's feet and were in pain because they weren't with him, and how they were begging M to be relieved from their "longing" pain. JW '
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Date: Wed, Dec 24, 1997 at 14:54:50 (EST)
Poster: Mr Ex
Email:
To: Everyone
Subject: Why stay Anonymouse
Message:
This is a question to my ‘exs’ friends : How come that I still want to stay ‘anonymous’? Did you go through a stage like this ? Did you ever feel threatened, any of you? Did you hide the fact that you left the cult to some of your friends at that moment? How come these relationships are conditionned by that group belonging thing? I’m all ears to any of your experiences in that field. And Merry Christmas to all !
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Date: Wed, Dec 24, 1997 at 15:51:23 (EST)
Poster: whom
Email: bb
To: Mr Ex
Subject: ever (Re: Why stay Anonymouse)
Message:
just the fact that chris is interested in your identity is enough to remain quiet. there is no honor in foolishly giving yourself away. I have been emailed asking who you are. Actually I happen to know already. I suggest you just stay with ex or pick up another title. OP perhaps?
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Date: Thurs, Dec 25, 1997 at 22:42:45 (EST)
Poster: John K.
Email:
To: Mr Ex
Subject: Re: Why stay Anonymouse
Message:
When I left there was nothing like this, obviously, but I went through a pretty long stage in which I did not want to have anything to do with former members. Why exactly are you staying anonymous? Do you really think you would be physically threatened if 'they' found out you had become a turncoat? Do you know something the rest of us don't? If there is something to be worried about, then why do we have the white pages where we reveal ourselves to the world?
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Date: Fri, Dec 26, 1997 at 03:13:52 (EST)
Poster: John Cavad
Email:
To: Mr Ex
Subject: Re: Why stay Anonymouse
Message:
Am I the only person who'll reveal himself on this forum? Perhaps some of you think there are premies out there that might "go Postal" on one of you? I guess I can understand the paranoia, but vistors should know we are real people with real names that have a real message: THERE'S MORE TO LIFE THAN S,S & M!!!!!!
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Date: Fri, Dec 26, 1997 at 11:49:19 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email: joger02@aol.com
To: Mr Ex
Subject: Re: Why stay Anonymouse
Message:
This is a question to my ‘exs’ friends : How come that I still want to stay ‘anonymous’? Did you go through a stage like this ? Did you ever feel threatened, any of you? Did you hide the fact that you left the cult to some of your friends at that moment? How come these relationships are conditionned by that group belonging thing? I’m all ears to any of your experiences in that field. And Merry Christmas to all ! Mr. Ex, I know you have not remained entirely anonymous, as you have revealed your name to some people, I even recall you from my days as a premie. But the extent to which you want to remain anonymous should be entirely up to you, and you should only reveal as much as you feel comfortable doing. I was like John K in the sense that I left the ashram and being a premie in 1983 and it was so difficult psychologically, that I did sort of keep in my head the possibility of coming back after I had a "breather" from the intense negativity I felt among premies and around M. But, like John, the longer I stayed away, the more "myself" I began to feel again, and it was a "me" I hadn't felt in a long, long time. It felt great. It was like I could breathe again. I also wrote letters to M during this period, but, of course, he never answered them. I also had a couple of discussions with initiators, but they seemed almost as unsure about M as I was during this period. Anyhow, I did participate in an "ex-members" group in Berkeley for awhile. Only the ex-members of cults were allowed, no one else, not even a facilitator or therapist, was allowed. Out of about 10-12 people in the group, about 4-5 were ex-premies and the rest were moonies, I think a Hari Krishna, and then others from other groups would drop in from time to time. It was fascinating and very supportive. The confronting thing to me was how very similar the trappings of the unification church and the experience of the moonies were to what premies saw and experienced. I had always thought I wasn't in a cult, like those crazy moonies, etc. I learned otherwise. The ex-moonies, had pretty much the same problems as the ex-premies. So, anyway, I stayed away from premies and M, except once or twice in 1983, including once when M spoke at Chabot College in the Bay Area and I went with some other ex-members to hear him speak. I was very nervous, not so much of M, but of the premies. When we walked out while the premies sang arti, I got some icy stares from people who had been my supposed "friends." Interesting too. Not one of those supposed "friends" even tried to contact me, even once. It made me see how superficial most of those premie-relationships really were. And when I ran into them, they obviously avoided me, and hesitant to even talk to me. That was revealing too. I also understand that for the next few years, the mission fell apart almost completely, that M closed the ashrams, and that there was a mass exodus of premies from following M. The majority of the people I knew well left M during this period and none of them has returned. Now, it's many years later and I have no fear about some premie or EL knowing who I am, and in fact I've used my name quite a lot on this forum. I've also told so much about my premie-history that many people could figure out who I am with no problem. But there are other reasons to not flash your name all over the internet where it is available to anyone, so keep that in mind as well. I think you should do whatever you personally feel is appropriate and try to ignore the pressure from either premies or ex-premies to do anything you don't want to do. JW
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Date: Fri, Dec 26, 1997 at 12:21:50 (EST)
Poster: John Cavad
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: Why stay Anonymouse
Message:
Very well expressed, JW. I understand you don't want your name (associated with a cult) thrown around all over the world. I'm sure if people could keep themselves known exclusively to this forum, perhaps more would reveal themselves. Some of us are on the internet because of business, etc. When a search of our name is executed by virtually anyone with a computer, you may not necessarily want your name to appear as a result of these pages.
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Date: Fri, Dec 26, 1997 at 12:53:30 (EST)
Poster: Bobby
Email:
To: anyone
Subject: Re: Why stay Anonymouse
Message:
I'm sure if people could keep themselves known exclusively to this forum, perhaps more would reveal themselves. Also more would reveal themselves if they didn't feel the subject of anger and abuse that historically has been a part of this forum. Some of you newer folks who have stated that the tone of this forum is more or less civil haven't been around for the thrashings. I've witnessed several folks showing up here who, after reasonable attempts at civil conversation and proferring of personal perspective, have gotten blasted by crass hostility. Also, regarding anonymity, there have been those who have attacked others here and have hid behind anonymity. I consider this moral cowardice.
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Date: Fri, Dec 26, 1997 at 21:06:37 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: Bobby
Subject: Re: Why stay Anonymouse
Message:
I'm sure if people could keep themselves known exclusively to this forum, perhaps more would reveal themselves. Also more would reveal themselves if they didn't feel the subject of anger and abuse that historically has been a part of this forum. Some of you newer folks who have stated that the tone of this forum is more or less civil haven't been around for the thrashings. I've witnessed several folks showing up here who, after reasonable attempts at civil conversation and proferring of personal perspective, have gotten blasted by crass hostility. Also, regarding anonymity, there have been those who have attacked others here and have hid behind anonymity. I consider this moral cowardice. Hey Bobby, you pompous spiritual prig, I consider your avoidance of logic -- only when it suits you, of course -- to be 'moral cowardice' as well. What do you say? Hmm? Maybe? Maybe Jim's got a point there, huh? Come on, Bobby, let me know your honest thoughts here. Don't hold back, please.
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Date: Sat, Dec 27, 1997 at 08:23:47 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Why stay Anonymouse
Message:
I'm sure if people could keep themselves known exclusively to this forum, perhaps more would reveal themselves. Also more would reveal themselves if they didn't feel the subject of anger and abuse that historically has been a part of this forum. Some of you newer folks who have stated that the tone of this forum is more or less civil haven't been around for the thrashings. I've witnessed several folks showing up here who, after reasonable attempts at civil conversation and proferring of personal perspective, have gotten blasted by crass hostility. Also, regarding anonymity, there have been those who have attacked others here and have hid behind anonymity. I consider this moral cowardice. Hey Bobby, you pompous spiritual prig, I consider your avoidance of logic -- only when it suits you, of course -- to be 'moral cowardice' as well. What do you say? Hmm? Maybe? Maybe Jim's got a point there, huh? Come on, Bobby, let me know your honest thoughts here. Don't hold back, please. Avoidance of logic only when it suits you - Jim, you couldn't have described yourself better. And 'when it suits you' means - when the other person has a different opinion than you do. When are you going to understand that you are using your 'logic' only when it suits you - to rationalize a conclusion that you have in advance, and not to explore all the possible solutions? That's just a perversion of rational thinking, it's like the 'philosophy' the Church used in the Middle Ages to arrive at the conclusion theat God exists, no matter what. Nah, forget it - you will never understand that. Now, what kind of nice insulting adjective could I use to describe you this time. 'Sophist' - nah, too nice. 'Asshole' - nah, that's been overused. 'Jerk' - overused. 'Twerp' - overused. 'Cocksucker' - hmm, I don't think we called you that before! But, Brian has his name written over that. 'Pervert' - I think that will do fine, because you must be the prime example of a morally, mentally and spiritually warped slob.
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Date: Sat, Dec 27, 1997 at 12:58:21 (EST)
Poster: Bobby
Email:
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Why stay Anonymouse
Message:
Hey Bobby, you pompous spiritual prig, I consider your avoidance of logic -- only when it suits you, of course -- to be 'moral cowardice' as well. What do you say? Hmm? Maybe? Maybe Jim's got a point there, huh? Come on, Bobby, let me know your honest thoughts here. Don't hold back, please. I say you are a vicious slut who deserves to have his ass kicked. I'd welcome the chance to do it myself. You have nothing to do with "logic" per se. You love meanness and spite. You make the world worse with your slimy behavior.
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Date: Sat, Dec 27, 1997 at 14:12:39 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Bobby
Subject: Re: Why stay Anonymouse
Message:
Hey Bobby, you pompous spiritual prig, I consider your avoidance of logic -- only when it suits you, of course -- to be 'moral cowardice' as well. What do you say? Hmm? Maybe? Maybe Jim's got a point there, huh? Come on, Bobby, let me know your honest thoughts here. Don't hold back, please. I say you are a vicious slut who deserves to have his ass kicked. I'd welcome the chance to do it myself. You have nothing to do with 'logic' per se. You love meanness and spite. You make the world worse with your slimy behavior. Bobby, I am sorry I butted in here - but I got really pissed off at the way this Joker carries on. BTW, I am reposting one of your earlier replies to Jim to illustrate the consistency of the premeditated (?) effect he has on people who try to have a civil conversation in this Forum. I hope you don't mind - this was your reaction to one of his earlier ad hominem attacks: 'Your words here evade and obfuscate the sense of what I stated. Your tactics remind me of courtroom dramas. Your evasions and obfuscations of issues others raise are the same tactics you so gleefully accuse other of. You do this all the time on this forum. I can really understand how people get so upset at lawyers. You embody the stereotype. You use word games that go for the jugular. You don't really care about "reason". You like to play head games that insult and demean. You don't care about "truth". You get your rocks off messing with people's minds. I've got kids. Two of them. You don't. The most important thing I teach is the values of love and respect. These are most important. You are telling me to lighten up a bit? You are one of the most arrogant, slanderous people I have ever met. You are not inerested in hearing what others have to say, you are interested in supporting your sandcastles by misappropriation of language and refusals to consider other views than the narrow window available through your steel engirdered blinders. Examples of your obfuscations spill throughout your spewings on this board. You are irritating me again. That's all I have to say to you. Flame off.'
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Date: Wed, Dec 24, 1997 at 14:43:33 (EST)
Poster: bftb
Email:
To: john cavad
Subject: question for john cavad
Message:
You've written of having known premies who left M for other gurus.Assuming that they had originally believed M to be god;what did they believe him to be after they found their new god?Still god but less so?I'm curious about how they rationalized this stuff. Thanks in advance for your reply. Happy Holidays to you and anyone else reading this.
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Date: Wed, Dec 24, 1997 at 14:55:37 (EST)
Poster: Bobby
Email: shaktipat@mindspring.com
To: bftb
Subject: Re: question for john cavad
Message:
Y'all making the big mistake in reasoning: Historicization of the transcendent. Read Joseph Campbell. He makes a point of this. Even if you're not interested, have a Merry Christmas anyway.....
Merry Christmas!
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Date: Wed, Dec 24, 1997 at 15:33:06 (EST)
Poster: Joe Campbell
Email:
To: anyone
Subject: a timely message (Re: question for john cavad)
Message:
"In the popular nightmare of history, where local mythic images are interpreted, not as metaphors, but as facts, there have been ferocious wars waged between the parties of such contrary manners of metaphoric representation." "One cannot but ask: What can such tribal literalism possibly contribute but agony to such a world of intercultural, global prospects as that of our present century? It all comes of misreading metaphors, taking detonation for connotation, the messenger for the message; overloading the carrier, consequently, with sentimentalized significance and throwing both life and thought thereby off balance. To which the only generaly recognized correction as yet proposed has been the no less wrongheaded one of dismissing the metaphors as lies (which indeed they are, when so construed), thus scrapping the whole dictionary of the language of the soul (this is a metaphor) by which mankind has been elevated to interests beyond procreation, economics, and "the greatest good of the greatest number." "Do I her, coming as from somewhere that is nowhere, the frightening sound of an Olympian laugh?"
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Date: Wed, Dec 24, 1997 at 18:19:35 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: Bobby
Subject: Re: question for john cavad
Message:
Bobby, All this darting back and forth between connotation and denotation makes me dizzy. Did M ever denote anything in your opinion? If so, what were the most incredible things you think he ever denoted? Were they true? Yes? No?
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Date: Wed, Dec 24, 1997 at 18:47:00 (EST)
Poster: Nigel
Email: N_Craig@msn.co.uk
To: Joe Campbell
Subject: Re: a timely message (Re: question for john cavad)
Message:
'In the popular nightmare of history, where local mythic images are interpreted, not as metaphors, but as facts, there have been ferocious wars waged between the parties of such contrary manners of metaphoric representation.' 'One cannot but ask: What can such tribal literalism possibly contribute but agony to such a world of intercultural, global prospects as that of our present century? It all comes of misreading metaphors, taking detonation for connotation, the messenger for the message; overloading the carrier, consequently, with sentimentalized significance and throwing both life and thought thereby off balance. To which the only generaly recognized correction as yet proposed has been the no less wrongheaded one of dismissing the metaphors as lies (which indeed they are, when so construed), thus scrapping the whole dictionary of the language of the soul (this is a metaphor) by which mankind has been elevated to interests beyond procreation, economics, and 'the greatest good of the greatest number.' 'Do I her, coming as from somewhere that is nowhere, the frightening sound of an Olympian laugh?' I'm a bit lost here. What's going on? Why is everybody quoting from books instead of using their brains?
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Date: Thurs, Dec 25, 1997 at 14:44:59 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Bobby
Subject: Re: question for john cavad
Message:
Y'all making the big mistake in reasoning: Historicization of the transcendent. Read Joseph Campbell. He makes a point of this. Even if you're not interested, have a Merry Christmas anyway.....
Merry Christmas! Bobby honey, Only people who were born south of the Mason-Dixon line are allowed to use the word "y'all" as the second person plural (I am assuming that you WERE using it as the second person PLURAL, not singular. That would have been a major faux pas). People from New Jersey have a perfectly acceptable alternative: "youse". However, I will make an exception for you since you've been in jail in Louisiana. Seriously, can you explain "historicization of the transcendent" in your own words? I've read the Joseph Campbell quote three times, and he and I are just not on the same wavelength. Thanks.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 25, 1997 at 14:45:56 (EST)
Poster: John Cavad
Email:
To: bftb
Subject: Re: Answer from john cavad (Re: question for john cavad)
Message:
No one who truly believed him to be God, had left, that I knew. They thought of him as some sort of saint, very close to God, but not God. One guy I was friends with went to Shri Chinmoy (who I had the opportunity to meet) because he thought he had a much better public image (in the United Nations, etc.) than GMJ and could do a better job spreading peace in the world. This ex-premie thought of GMJ as a self-indulgent person
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Date: Fri, Dec 26, 1997 at 03:16:35 (EST)
Poster: John Cavad
Email:
To: John Cavad
Subject: Re: Answer from john cavad (Re: question for john cavad)
Message:
God? GMJ has never said he's God (in the first person) at a public program. Has he said it to individual premies in private.
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Date: Fri, Dec 26, 1997 at 05:08:30 (EST)
Poster: Mr Ex
Email:
To: John Cavad
Subject: He said he is Hari (Re: question for john cavad)
Message:
in public : Excerpt from M’s discourse at Shri Sant Yogashram, New Delhi, India November 9, 1990 Published in : ‘Life Force’ Volume 7, Issue 2, April-June 1991 by : Divine United Organization Shri Sant Yogashram, Shahurpur, Mehrauli, New Delhi 110 030, India Just see, today this word 'guru' has become a ridiculous term, a sort of a joke and people do not know what is a 'guru'. When I fly a plane in India, I often listen to the radio in the cockpit. There are talks going on between various pilots in the vicinity. Somebody would address: ''Well Guru, how are you?" Because they do not know the true meaning and implications. They don't understand the glory of a guru and Master. Because they have forgotten altogether. They have made such pseudo-guru who have put the whole system to disrepute. For instance, in schools they don't know the correct meaning of a couplet like: The radiance radiated from my beloved is of suds an amazing hue ... They say, "oh yes, because Kabir saw a sort of redness..." But what sort of redness was it? Such so-called gurus have marred the reputation of this institution. It has been ruined. Actually the guru is such a personality about whom it is said: « I bow down to the lotus feet of my Guru Maharaji, who is the ocean of mercy and is actually Hari (God) himself in human form. And whose words are like sunbeams to disperse the accumulated darkness of gross ignorance. » So Tulsidas says that he bows down to such a Guru Maharaji, the Master, who is really Hari (Supreme Power) in the form of man. So the main thing to understand here is that he bows down to the feet of that guru whose utterances, whose expressions are able to illuminate. And what is that which is illuminated by his words? It is the heart which is illuminated. His words are able to sever and dispel the spidery web of illusion, infatuation and ignorance. This I have seen myself and realized in my own heart. Yes, in my heart! Note : that has been very likely published by mistake, as discourses are usually carefully edited.
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Date: Fri, Dec 26, 1997 at 11:01:47 (EST)
Poster: Bobby
Email:
To: Katie
Subject: Re: question for john cavad
Message:
Bobby honey, Only people who were born south of the Mason-Dixon line are allowed to use the word 'y'all' as the second person plural YES I QUALIFY through my southern sojourn. Even though I was deemed by my jail colleagues a "jew from New Jersey" I've had experience enough of life amongst the natives and have known my share of authentic suthin' hospitality. Thank ya ma'am. can you explain 'historicization of the transcendent' in your own words? I've read the Joseph Campbell quote three times, and he and I are just not on the same wavelength. Myth operates through everything. Myth is the meaning. Myth is the transcendent. Myth arrays itself as stories, the undercurrent stories of our lives. Campbell's life work was the identification of the great mythic themes common to all cultures and times. The birth, death and resurrection of the God is one of these grand mythic themes. At this time of year she shows up as birth of the Christ, Winter Solstice, dalliance of the Goddess in the Hell realms. Where we get into trouble is where we literalize these myths. Maharaji took on the myth of guru, realized master, perhaps even God incarnation. Regardless of the authenticity of Maharaji, the myth constellates as a means for spiritual realization. People who look for God, get God, more or less independent of the form. It seems that several ex-premies on this forum have thrown out the baby with the bathwater. They seem to confuse Maharaji with spirituality in general. They literalize the transcendent. Whether or not Maharaji himself does this is a different matter. Does he think he is God? I don't know.
Campbell's words are a bit thick, even for Campbell I think. But with careful reading, he makes his point.
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Date: Fri, Dec 26, 1997 at 12:26:27 (EST)
Poster: John Cavad
Email:
To: Mr Ex
Subject: Re: He said he is Hari (Re: question for john cavad)
Message:
Very interesting. Thanks, Mr. Ex.
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Date: Sat, Dec 27, 1997 at 21:58:31 (EST)
Poster: bobby
Email: bb
To: Bobby
Subject: lights (Re: question for john cavad)
Message:
that's a real nice tree and the flashing lights is quite a trick!
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Date: Mon, Dec 29, 1997 at 19:35:38 (EST)
Poster: jim
Email:
To: Bobby
Subject: Re: question for john cavad
Message:
Gobbledygook. Good for wine and cheese parties and impressing new age types.
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Date: Mon, Dec 29, 1997 at 21:13:06 (EST)
Poster: Bobby
Email:
To: jim
Subject: Re: question for john cavad
Message:
Fuck you. Clueless asshole.
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Date: Wed, Dec 24, 1997 at 13:50:00 (EST)
Poster: Seymour
Email: seymour_t@rocket_mail
To: Everyone
Subject: Happy Christmas
Message:
MERRY CHRISTMAS AND A HAPPY NEW YEAR to everyone. I know us ex-premies mostly don't subscribe to religious or superstitious mumbo jumbo but if those who govern us insist we have a holiday who are we to argue. I hope everyone eats, drinks and gets extremely merry - even if it is not the purpose of your life, so long as your celebrations are not hurting anyone else, why not? You'll be a long time dead as my old dad used to say. After the holiday hangover we can get back to being truth crusaders. If some of you are not having a holiday - sorry, but I am sure Santa will visit if you have left out a mince pie and a carrot for Rudolf. Until 1998 Best Wishes, Seymour
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Date: Wed, Dec 24, 1997 at 16:09:05 (EST)
Poster: d@vid
Email: s@nta's grotto
To: Seymour
Subject: Re: Happy Christmas
Message:
And the same to you Seymour. And to you Katie, and to you JW, and odl and Masher (even Masher) and CD (sorry about the prick analogy - it was past my bed time)... and for all our proud cast of strange charectors gathered here in cybaspacio, including those that lurk shyly above, laughing and mocking the rest of us poor actors... A VERY MERRY CHRISTMAS d@vid
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Date: Wed, Dec 24, 1997 at 17:27:18 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: d@vid
Subject: Re: Happy Christmas
Message:
And the same to you Seymour. And to you Katie, and to you JW, and odl and Masher (even Masher) and CD (sorry about the prick analogy - it was past my bed time)... and for all our proud cast of strange charectors gathered here in cybaspacio, including those that lurk shyly above, laughing and mocking the rest of us poor actors... A VERY MERRY CHRISTMAS d@vid Thank you very much, David and Seymour. We don't celebrate Xmas (except for the presents), so I'll just wish you, and all...a very happy new year P.S. Here is an xmas present from CD. Don't know how long it will be around, so check it out. http://www.cdickey.com/chris.htm
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Date: Wed, Dec 24, 1997 at 18:43:06 (EST)
Poster: M
Email: lo@dsamoney
To: Katie
Subject: To all my children... (Re: Happy Christmas)
Message:
And to all those that still believe in Santa...

To all

~MERRY XMAS~

M@haraji

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Date: Wed, Dec 24, 1997 at 22:18:39 (EST)
Poster: CD
Email:
To: d@vid
Subject: Happy New Year (Re: Happy Christmas)
Message:
David, Even Mili and Chris ? Allright ! Rad ! Bloody well good! Cheers !

WHO SAYS PREMIES DON'T HAVE FUN?
See Me


Happy Holidays and Beyond,
CD


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Date: Thurs, Dec 25, 1997 at 06:18:18 (EST)
Poster: d@vid
Email: d@vid
To: CD
Subject: Re: Happy New Year (Re: Happy Christmas)
Message:
Nice one CD, but who's who? I think you're the slightly loopy looking guy on ther right. But there again... (and aren't we all looking old?) DS
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Date: Thurs, Dec 25, 1997 at 06:27:21 (EST)
Poster: d@vid
Email: p@aranoia
To: d@vid
Subject: Re: PS to CD (Re: Happy Christmas)
Message:
BTW CD, just what is it you attached to that post which tries to store info on my little PC? I refused to accept whatever it was but perhaps it was just a little gift from Santa! I think we should be told.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 25, 1997 at 14:17:25 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: d@vid and all
Subject: Dysfunctional Family Christmas (Re: Happy Christmas)
Message:
Nice one CD, but who's who? I think you're the slightly loopy looking guy on ther right. But there again... (and aren't we all looking old?) DS Actually, Chris is the one on the left, with a tie on. Surprised me too - you just don't look like you sound, Chris. (Everyone has been telling me that I look EXACTLY like I sound on the forum - don't know if that's good or bad.) I really enjoyed logging onto the website this morning and encountering the ex-premie/premie dysfunctional family Christmas greetings. It reminds me so much of my own family at holidays: people calling each other Nazis, lots of arguing, other people trying to make jokes to lighten the tension, and a few poor souls trying to remind everyone of the true meaning of Christmas. I actually do like it, in a twisted kind of way (I don't like sentimental holidays). I also like doing it on the web where no one has to run out of the room crying. Happy holidays to all from Katie P.S. to David - what's this "old" stuff? Speak for yourself! And where's that picture of you without your fingers in your ears?
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Date: Thurs, Dec 25, 1997 at 23:31:36 (EST)
Poster: Mike
Email: bigguy32@juno.com
To: Katie
Subject: Re: Dysfunctional Family Christmas (Re: Happy Christmas)
Message:
Nice one CD, but who's who? I think you're the slightly loopy looking guy on ther right. But there again... (and aren't we all looking old?) DS Actually, Chris is the one on the left, with a tie on. Surprised me too - you just don't look like you sound, Chris. (Everyone has been telling me that I look EXACTLY like I sound on the forum - don't know if that's good or bad.) I really enjoyed logging onto the website this morning and encountering the ex-premie/premie dysfunctional family Christmas greetings. It reminds me so much of my own family at holidays: people calling each other Nazis, lots of arguing, other people trying to make jokes to lighten the tension, and a few poor souls trying to remind everyone of the true meaning of Christmas. I actually do like it, in a twisted kind of way (I don't like sentimental holidays). I also like doing it on the web where no one has to run out of the room crying. Happy holidays to all from Katie P.S. to David - what's this 'old' stuff? Speak for yourself! And where's that picture of you without your fingers in your ears? Merry Christmas and Happy New Year Katie! Calling each other Nazis??? What a family. Hopefully it's much more peaceful this year for your family.
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Date: Mon, Dec 29, 1997 at 16:23:16 (EST)
Poster: CD
Email:
To: d@vid
Subject: Re: PS to CD (Re: Happy Christmas)
Message:
BTW CD, just what is it you attached to that post which tries to store info on my little PC? I refused to accept whatever it was but perhaps it was just a little gift from Santa! I think we should be told. Oh yeah, the bomb attached to my picture - ROTFL It's in the tie I'm wearing in the photo. Check out the HTML and hopefully the paranoid feeling will dissipate. Shape up man! Quit worrying about premies. The photo was posted with good intentions. Where is your on-line photo and fire-eyed Jim's? Have a good new year, CD
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Date: Wed, Dec 24, 1997 at 06:16:44 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Fire in the Equations
Message:
'Yet religion remains essentially private knowledge if we consider where the most significant testing of religious evidence takes place. Who is it that ends up convinced, or not convinced, by the evidence? However we might try to answer that question, from history or from contemporary religion, whatever some might insist the answer ought to be - who should have the last word - and regardless of the way some of us try to influence one another, we can't avoid the conclusion that human decisions about whether to believe there is a God - and, if so, what sort of God - are private decisions, not a concensus.' - Fire in the Equations by Kitty Ferguson, pp.244
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Date: Wed, Dec 24, 1997 at 10:39:21 (EST)
Poster: boring John K.
Email:
To: Mili
Subject: Re: Fire in the Equations
Message:
I hope I don't put you to sleep Mili but... The m I knew and loved used to make great fun of religions. Has he now officially started calling what he does a religion? Obviously, we all must have respect for each other and each other's beliefs. I really don't like the crude and rude comments about m's weight and physical appearance. I think they are as pointless as comments about ANYONE's physical appearance.
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Date: Wed, Dec 24, 1997 at 10:47:53 (EST)
Poster: Mr Oxymoron
Email: mu
To: boring John K.
Subject: Re: Fire in the Equations
Message:
I hope I don't put you to sleep Mili but... The m I knew and loved used to make great fun of religions. Has he now officially started calling what he does a religion? Obviously, we all must have respect for each other and each other's beliefs. I really don't like the crude and rude comments about m's weight and physical appearance. I think they are as pointless as comments about ANYONE's physical appearance. thats right - he IS a pointless fat guy
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Date: Wed, Dec 24, 1997 at 11:03:20 (EST)
Poster: the boring one
Email: holidaymood
To: Mr Oxymoron
Subject: Re: Fire in the Equations
Message:
Dear Mr. Oxy MORON: I guess it's best you keep your comments brief.
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Date: Wed, Dec 24, 1997 at 18:21:13 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: Mili
Subject: Re: Fire in the Equations
Message:
Is the whole book this interesting? Amazing.
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Date: Wed, Dec 24, 1997 at 23:39:24 (EST)
Poster: op
Email:
To: boring John K.
Subject: Re: Fire in the Equations
Message:
Dear Boring: Obviously, we all must have respect for each other and each other's beliefs. I really don't like the crude and rude comments about m's weight and physical appearance. I think they are as pointless as comments about ANYONE's physical appearance. Thanks for that. I hope some of the other ex's listen to you, although judging from what you got by return post, it can be twisted just as neatly as any other comment. Civility, a relatively new concept on this forum since it was fostered by Ms Katie, would include forgoing gratuitous insults to race, nationality, or physical attributes.
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Date: Wed, Dec 24, 1997 at 23:40:29 (EST)
Poster: op
Email:
To: boring John K.
Subject: Re: Fire in the Equations
Message:
Dear Boring: Obviously, we all must have respect for each other and each other's beliefs. I really don't like the crude and rude comments about m's weight and physical appearance. I think they are as pointless as comments about ANYONE's physical appearance. Thanks for that. I hope some of the other ex's listen to you, although judging from what you got by return post, it can be twisted just as neatly as any other comment. Civility, a relatively new concept on this forum since it was fostered by Ms Katie, would include forgoing gratuitous insults to race, nationality, or physical attributes. 'boring', by the way, could also mean digging deep.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 25, 1997 at 15:10:32 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: op
Subject: Re: Fire in the Equations
Message:
Dear Boring: Obviously, we all must have respect for each other and each other's beliefs. I really don't like the crude and rude comments about m's weight and physical appearance. I think they are as pointless as comments about ANYONE's physical appearance. Thanks for that. I hope some of the other ex's listen to you, although judging from what you got by return post, it can be twisted just as neatly as any other comment. Civility, a relatively new concept on this forum since it was fostered by Ms Katie, would include forgoing gratuitous insults to race, nationality, or physical attributes. 'boring', by the way, could also mean digging deep. I was trained like a puppy to whimper and salivate over Maharaji's golden form. That was a real bad idea. The truth is his skin isn't golden and there's really no good reason to drink his foot-bath water. In fact his skin is kind of gross. At least it was. Shiny, pimply. And that moustache. Really! Talk about less-than perfect hormones. But heh, he's just another shlub like you and I trying to make a living, right? No, OP, 'civility' flew out the window when Maharaji told us our lives weren't worht shit without devotion to him. I've been hated, ridiculed, laughed at and ignored. I've been conned and ripped-off and lied to big-time. But no one has ever tried to override my own personal elan vital like Maharaji did. And his cowardly hiding behind your apron doesn't make it any better. 'Civility' is a function of respect. I gave eight years to this guy and started to question all he stood for. He stonewalled me and refused to talk. He's NOT the Lord. He's just some asshole wasting people's time and trust. And you, OP, are completely disingenuous. Merry Christmas.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 25, 1997 at 17:54:56 (EST)
Poster: Mr. Oxymoron
Email: mu
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Fire in the Equations
Message:
Dear Boring: Obviously, we all must have respect for each other and each other's beliefs. I really don't like the crude and rude comments about m's weight and physical appearance. I think they are as pointless as comments about ANYONE's physical appearance. Thanks for that. I hope some of the other ex's listen to you, although judging from what you got by return post, it can be twisted just as neatly as any other comment. Civility, a relatively new concept on this forum since it was fostered by Ms Katie, would include forgoing gratuitous insults to race, nationality, or physical attributes. 'boring', by the way, could also mean digging deep. I was trained like a puppy to whimper and salivate over Maharaji's golden form. That was a real bad idea. The truth is his skin isn't golden and there's really no good reason to drink his foot-bath water. In fact his skin is kind of gross. At least it was. Shiny, pimply. And that moustache. Really! Talk about less-than perfect hormones. But heh, he's just another shlub like you and I trying to make a living, right? No, OP, 'civility' flew out the window when Maharaji told us our lives weren't worht shit without devotion to him. I've been hated, ridiculed, laughed at and ignored. I've been conned and ripped-off and lied to big-time. But no one has ever tried to override my own personal elan vital like Maharaji did. And his cowardly hiding behind your apron doesn't make it any better. 'Civility' is a function of respect. I gave eight years to this guy and started to question all he stood for. He stonewalled me and refused to talk. He's NOT the Lord. He's just some asshole wasting people's time and trust. And you, OP, are completely disingenuous. Merry Christmas. what jim really trying to say is - jane/op you ignorant slut
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Date: Thurs, Dec 25, 1997 at 19:42:48 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: op
Subject: Re: Fire in the Equations
Message:
OP, where did you GET such negativity? And at Christmas, too. Honestly. If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all, okay? And start doing that TODAY; don't put it off until tomorrow, and that's a commandment.
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Date: Fri, Dec 26, 1997 at 11:20:29 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: op
Subject: Re: Fire in the Equations
Message:
Dear Boring: Obviously, we all must have respect for each other and each other's beliefs. I really don't like the crude and rude comments about m's weight and physical appearance. I think they are as pointless as comments about ANYONE's physical appearance. Thanks for that. I hope some of the other ex's listen to you, although judging from what you got by return post, it can be twisted just as neatly as any other comment. Civility, a relatively new concept on this forum since it was fostered by Ms Katie, would include forgoing gratuitous insults to race, nationality, or physical attributes. OP, I think Mr. Boring was referring to "pointless comments" about someone's physical attributes, and there may well have been some of them about Maharaji. But the vast majority, in my opinion, have not been pointless. For example, when I saw M in a video after not seeing him for many years, I noted the similarities and contrasts between how he looks now and how he looked in the past. And I noticed, as differences: 1. He has a receding hairline 2. His eyes have become very, very puffy and his eyes are , literally, nothing but slits, which differed from the way he used to look;\ 3. He has big bags under his eyes which he didn't use to have. And then the similarities: 1. He's still fat and in most other ways also looks much the same. These are not "insults" and have nothing to do with race, or nationality and only relate "physical appearance" in the sense of how he looks in comparison to the past. Considering that most of us had pictures of him plastered everywhere, including on the dashboard of the car and often pinned to our chests, his "physical appearance" was something that was obviously important to M and very much a part of his whole trip, as he did his best to keep it in front of us at all times. So, since that's true, discussion of how he looks is entirely appropriate and not "insults." By the way, even that promoter of civility, Katie, said that M looked "awful" and something to the effect that he looked like a jaded asian businessman. So, even civil people notice these things. BTW- I consider your undirected and unsubstantiated criticisms of people who post here, gratuitous. JW
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Date: Fri, Dec 26, 1997 at 13:20:03 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Fire in the Equations
Message:
Is the whole book this interesting? Amazing. Well, Jim, that's another fine book you are going to miss. I think what really hurts you is that premies also read books, practice law, graduate at schools, are physicians, have families and lead completely normal lives in all respects. You may be above average I.Q, but it doesn't mean that everyone else is a moron. Bobby is member of MENSA, and he REALLY likes to do meditation. Chris is a Microsoft computer expert. Annie is a playwright. Etc., etc. Intelligence without a heart to back it up really stinks.
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Date: Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 23:54:52 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: Everyone
Subject: Compromised Intelligence
Message:
I've been out of town for most of the last two months. Back only on weekends, I've held off posting because I can't really sustain any discussion this way. But I've been lurking of course. Who wouldn't? Watching premies cover for Maharaji is better than having an aquarium. Anyone remember Vladmir Posner? I think that was his name. He was the American-bred and educated Soviet PR guy who regularly appeared on U.S. radio talk shows in the early and mid 80s. He sounded exactly like an American journalist or commentator. Extremely likeable and relatable, he would unabashedly address all the glaring weaknesses of the U.S.S.R. with just the right amount of spin and gloss. For full moments at a time, you'd actually forget that the U.S.S.R. was a tad more restrictive than the west. Of course that was the fun. It was like a sport listening to Mr. Posner. No one in their right mind would actually believe his bullshit but it was so much fun to hear him utter it. Kind of like watching a contortionist. You know it isn't real. They know it isn't real. It's just great to watch them all pretend and such. I find that, for me, that's one of the real attractions of this page. I'm fully grateful to all the people here who have helped me understand the cult I was stuck in so long ago. I'm also grateful for the warmth, humour and camaradarie we've shared so far. Thanks everyone. But what really turns my crank, if you will, are the posts by Maharaji's apologists. 'Thrilling' is too sensational. 'Enthralling' too strong. Still, on some cyber-cerebral visceral level, there's nothing more exciting than watching OP turn, duck, spin and dive -- only to climb back up with a smile on her face. OP, and all the OP wannabees (like Annie -- hey Annie, merry christmas!) excite me to no end. What will they say next? Of course there's no end to the game. If someone had ever suggested to OP twenty years ago that she'd be blithely deflecting all real questions as she does, all under the guise of brave, intelligent, even patient, discourse, she'd have been astounded. Like many things, it's a game one grows into. I guess, quite frankly, if all the premies just admitted the simple truth -- that Maharaji claimed to be God and, oh by the way, still does, but that he isn't and that's that -- there wouldn't be a whole lot more to grind out. We'd all accept the simple fact that we'd been swept up in some quirky sixties fantasy. It devolved a bit over the next few decades (but was never nearly as much fun). Some wierd memories. Some very sweet, twisted memories. Some frighteningly stupid memories. A bunch of puzzle pieces falling into place ('So THAT'S who [Maharaji, your favorite mahatma/instructor/initiator/important premie] was screwing!' or 'So THAT'S where the money went!') and .... end of story. But with OP et al. cheerfully lobbing back every shot, well, I for one can't get enough of it. I enjoy reading Holocaust revisionists too for that matter. Know what I mean? By the way, I'm still waiting to hear from David Coyne who was going to try to set up a meeting with Maharaji sometime. No, seriously, he took it upon himself to try to get us together. Linda Gross, president of Elan Vital, suggested he contact Maharaji's personal whatever. David and I agree that it would be ..... I don't know what. Interesting? No, of course it won't happen. Still, if it ever does, I'll let you know. Promise. Merry Xmas. Happy New Year. Jim
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Date: Wed, Dec 24, 1997 at 00:33:34 (EST)
Poster: lord Jim
Email: bb
To: Jim
Subject: O'Heller (Re: Compromised Intelligence)
Message:
ha ha by the way, I thought you were playing some other characters on occasion. I got an email asking if you were mr ex. I could tell he wasn't you. excellent point about posner. the aquarium comment was funny 'the simple truth-- that maharaji claimed to be god and, oh by the way, still does, but that he isn't and thats that--' great nutshell. Yes there is more to be ground out. He will march this illusion around the planet and there is no one to stop him but himself and us, and most peoples sanity. But future generations will hear in some of these 50 countries about this crowned god who claimed outright to be the ultimate lord but the people of this time were to involved in materialism to see him. His dastardly reality needs to be documented and publicised. And there are a lot of stories that are waiting to be told by many people who have no where to tell them. Which is one reason why the website must continue.
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Date: Wed, Dec 24, 1997 at 00:48:05 (EST)
Poster: Acadian Driftwood
Email:
To: Jim
Subject: Canadian Coldfront (Re: Compromised Intelligence)
Message:
Hey, we miss you! Happy New Year to you...
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Date: Wed, Dec 24, 1997 at 01:08:41 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Compromised Intelligence
Message:
Thanks, Jim. Nice to hear from you. Lots of people appear to have found the site and the forum. It appears to be growing, as you always thought it would. JW
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Date: Wed, Dec 24, 1997 at 03:25:41 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Compromised Intelligence
Message:
Oh, homage to thee of Superior Intelligence, who watches all of us here as little fishies in an aquarium and from time to time incarnates thyself as a post on this forum! - Mili P.S. Jim, pick up a copy of 'The Fire in the Equations' by Kitty Ferguson. Great book!
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Date: Wed, Dec 24, 1997 at 07:39:07 (EST)
Poster: A
Email:
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Compromised Intelligence
Message:
Why in the world have you compromised your intelligence?
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Date: Wed, Dec 24, 1997 at 10:45:10 (EST)
Poster: Mr Oxymoron
Email: mu
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Compromised Intelligence
Message:
I've been out of town for most of the last two months. Back only on weekends, I've held off posting because I can't really sustain any discussion this way. But I've been lurking of course. Who wouldn't? Watching premies cover for Maharaji is better than having an aquarium. Anyone remember Vladmir Posner? I think that was his name. He was the American-bred and educated Soviet PR guy who regularly appeared on U.S. radio talk shows in the early and mid 80s. He sounded exactly like an American journalist or commentator. Extremely likeable and relatable, he would unabashedly address all the glaring weaknesses of the U.S.S.R. with just the right amount of spin and gloss. For full moments at a time, you'd actually forget that the U.S.S.R. was a tad more restrictive than the west. Of course that was the fun. It was like a sport listening to Mr. Posner. No one in their right mind would actually believe his bullshit but it was so much fun to hear him utter it. Kind of like watching a contortionist. You know it isn't real. They know it isn't real. It's just great to watch them all pretend and such. I find that, for me, that's one of the real attractions of this page. I'm fully grateful to all the people here who have helped me understand the cult I was stuck in so long ago. I'm also grateful for the warmth, humour and camaradarie we've shared so far. Thanks everyone. But what really turns my crank, if you will, are the posts by Maharaji's apologists. 'Thrilling' is too sensational. 'Enthralling' too strong. Still, on some cyber-cerebral visceral level, there's nothing more exciting than watching OP turn, duck, spin and dive -- only to climb back up with a smile on her face. OP, and all the OP wannabees (like Annie -- hey Annie, merry christmas!) excite me to no end. What will they say next? Of course there's no end to the game. If someone had ever suggested to OP twenty years ago that she'd be blithely deflecting all real questions as she does, all under the guise of brave, intelligent, even patient, discourse, she'd have been astounded. Like many things, it's a game one grows into. I guess, quite frankly, if all the premies just admitted the simple truth -- that Maharaji claimed to be God and, oh by the way, still does, but that he isn't and that's that -- there wouldn't be a whole lot more to grind out. We'd all accept the simple fact that we'd been swept up in some quirky sixties fantasy. It devolved a bit over the next few decades (but was never nearly as much fun). Some wierd memories. Some very sweet, twisted memories. Some frighteningly stupid memories. A bunch of puzzle pieces falling into place ('So THAT'S who [Maharaji, your favorite mahatma/instructor/initiator/important premie] was screwing!' or 'So THAT'S where the money went!') and .... end of story. But with OP et al. cheerfully lobbing back every shot, well, I for one can't get enough of it. I enjoy reading Holocaust revisionists too for that matter. Know what I mean? By the way, I'm still waiting to hear from David Coyne who was going to try to set up a meeting with Maharaji sometime. No, seriously, he took it upon himself to try to get us together. Linda Gross, president of Elan Vital, suggested he contact Maharaji's personal whatever. David and I agree that it would be ..... I don't know what. Interesting? No, of course it won't happen. Still, if it ever does, I'll let you know. Promise. Merry Xmas. Happy New Year. Jim so much of the time this forum reminds me of the old saturday night live set of point counter point with one person saying - Jane you ignorant slut!
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Date: Wed, Dec 24, 1997 at 13:31:18 (EST)
Poster: John Cavad
Email:
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Compromised Intelligence
Message:
Hi, Jim. I wrote you once before a month ago. I like your writing. It's most entertaining. When did you become educated: before or after or during your time in premie prison? I'm finding this forum a bit too adicting. I'll have to leave for a couple of weeks to so I can forget about all this stuff. For 14 years, I was way from it all. Now I see myself as back. Oh no!
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Date: Thurs, Dec 25, 1997 at 22:09:54 (EST)
Poster: test
Email:
To: test
Subject: Re: Compromised Intelligence
Message:
Test Test
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Date: Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 22:57:27 (EST)
Poster: ex-cyclist
Email: the.open.road
To: Everyone
Subject: Why the angst
Message:
We have here an unspoken commen thread of anger and resentment against Maharaji. What has he done to hurt us so much that we would feel this way? Humans don't feel anger and resentment unless there is a very good reason. If we feel such feelings towards M then it is his fault and not ours. I think I feel anger and resentment because of the dictatorial way he tried to make me think and believe certain things, over many years. He tried to change my independent way of thought to conform to his own structure. It is as if I have been mentally raped. Sometimes I think I will never be free of it. I am a normal, decent guy who loves children, old people and animals. Yet I have been filled full of so much BS by M that I wonder if I'll ever get back to feeling free of anxiety. I never wanted to hate anyone. I call myself ex-cyclist as opposed to ex-premie because I was a racing cyclist before I received the knowledge.
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Date: Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 23:26:36 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: ex-cyclist
Subject: Re: Why the angst
Message:
We have here an unspoken commen thread of anger and resentment against Maharaji. What has he done to hurt us so much that we would feel this way? Humans don't feel anger and resentment unless there is a very good reason. If we feel such feelings towards M then it is his fault and not ours. I think I feel anger and resentment because of the dictatorial way he tried to make me think and believe certain things, over many years. He tried to change my independent way of thought to conform to his own structure. It is as if I have been mentally raped. Sometimes I think I will never be free of it. I am a normal, decent guy who loves children, old people and animals. Yet I have been filled full of so much BS by M that I wonder if I'll ever get back to feeling free of anxiety. I never wanted to hate anyone. I call myself ex-cyclist as opposed to ex-premie because I was a racing cyclist before I received the knowledge. So, nexr you are going to tell us that Maharji made you sell your bicycle and give the money to Divine Light Mission , and that is why you hate him so much... Yawn. Nite, everyone.
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Date: Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 23:50:07 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: ex-cyclist
Subject: Re: Why the angst
Message:
We have here an unspoken commen thread of anger and resentment against Maharaji. What has he done to hurt us so much that we would feel this way? Humans don't feel anger and resentment unless there is a very good reason. If we feel such feelings towards M then it is his fault and not ours. I think I feel anger and resentment because of the dictatorial way he tried to make me think and believe certain things, over many years. He tried to change my independent way of thought to conform to his own structure. It is as if I have been mentally raped. Sometimes I think I will never be free of it. I am a normal, decent guy who loves children, old people and animals. Yet I have been filled full of so much BS by M that I wonder if I'll ever get back to feeling free of anxiety. I never wanted to hate anyone. I call myself ex-cyclist as opposed to ex-premie because I was a racing cyclist before I received the knowledge. I relate to a lot of what you are saying, although I am not very angry at Maharaji anymore. I think anger is a necessary part of what we need to go through to separate ourself from Maharaji, though. And I think you WILL be free of it, too. I also love children, old people and animals, and I was touched by your post. I hope that you keep on posting.
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Date: Wed, Dec 24, 1997 at 00:56:37 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email: joger02@aol.com
To: ex-cyclist
Subject: Re: Why the angst
Message:
We have here an unspoken commen thread of anger and resentment against Maharaji. What has he done to hurt us so much that we would feel this way? Humans don't feel anger and resentment unless there is a very good reason. If we feel such feelings towards M then it is his fault and not ours. I think I feel anger and resentment because of the dictatorial way he tried to make me think and believe certain things, over many years. He tried to change my independent way of thought to conform to his own structure. It is as if I have been mentally raped. Sometimes I think I will never be free of it. I am a normal, decent guy who loves children, old people and animals. Yet I have been filled full of so much BS by M that I wonder if I'll ever get back to feeling free of anxiety. I never wanted to hate anyone. I call myself ex-cyclist as opposed to ex-premie because I was a racing cyclist before I received the knowledge. I know it has been said before, but I think the anger you feel is a big step in getting free from all the programming that has been jammed into you in M's cult. I do still feel anger against M from time to time, even all these years later, but not very often. In the beginning after I left, I was so consumed with anger and feelings of loss and resentment, that I doubt I could even look at, let alone talk about, what I felt and what happened to me. That's what I find so interesting now. I feel so much more detached from it all and I feel like I can look at it so much more dispassionately and objectively. It's a great feeling. Like Katie said, it does get better. I just wish there was some support like this site around when I left the being a premie 14 years ago. Hang in there. Trust what you feel. It will get better. JW
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Date: Wed, Dec 24, 1997 at 13:26:37 (EST)
Poster: John Cavad
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: Why the angst
Message:
(This is my experience, not necessarily the appropriate or a just one). Hey, in this litigious world we live in, I've learned to accept full responsibility for my being around GMJ. I can't hate him since it was my damn fault for joining, spending eight years with him, yet it's also my fault for leaving (which I'm proud of doing). Until I took responsibilty of being sold a pile of dung from a timeshare/used-car salesman, I was a victim. Being a victim hurts too much. (JW, you left in 1983 also?)
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Date: Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 21:51:43 (EST)
Poster: Persons unmentionabl
Email: unmentionable
To: Everyone
Subject: A little more BBC ?
Message:
I gather David cannot continue to author this website. Without wishing to detract in any way at all from his marvellous achievements so far, might I ask whether his successor(s) would possibly try and exercise a little more conservative approach? David has his own highly poplular journalistic style which seems to me rather, shall we say, "Channel 4" as opposed to "BBC2" (if you live in England you will know what I mean). For example: The editor referring to persons as "sad toekissers" (although embracing the popular new meaning of the word 'sad' and thus reaching out to a young audience) cannot help but engender a tone of confrontation and "pillory" which I feel could toned down. Far better, in my opinion to remove the implied "anger " from the posture of the magazine and to present a welcoming and impartial, scholarly and, most importantly,inoffensive but comfy website, whose chief columnists do little to antagonise the subject(s) of their critiques. Their unsensationally presented facts speaking loudly for themselves. If the traditional art of "lampoon" and caricature is to be exercised at the expense of Monsieur Rawat or others of that persuasion, let it be tasteful. By adopting a consideredtone, relevant material can be presented for the viewer to digest in an atmosphere of civilised and studious calm. (Much like in a municipal library). I say all this because it worries me deeply to think that if my dear Aunt Peggy were to stumble upon these pages, she may be given the unfortunate first impression that those who are disposed to publish their thoughts on the matter do so only upon a mad and improper impulse or with brash disrespect and intolerance for people of other faiths. This would be enough to set her surfing-off on a different tack straightaway, being a Christian Scientist herself. ( They embrace all religions and generally "look on the bright side" of life.)
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Date: Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 23:17:55 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Persons unmentionabl
Subject: Re: A little more BBC ?
Message:
I gather David cannot continue to author this website. Without wishing to detract in any way at all from his marvellous achievements so far, might I ask whether his successor(s) would possibly try and exercise a little more conservative approach? David has his own highly poplular journalistic style which seems to me rather, shall we say, 'Channel 4' as opposed to 'BBC2' (if you live in England you will know what I mean). For example: The editor referring to persons as 'sad toekissers' (although embracing the popular new meaning of the word 'sad' and thus reaching out to a young audience) cannot help but engender a tone of confrontation and 'pillory' which I feel could toned down. Far better, in my opinion to remove the implied 'anger ' from the posture of the magazine and to present a welcoming and impartial, scholarly and, most importantly,inoffensive but comfy website, whose chief columnists do little to antagonise the subject(s) of their critiques. Their unsensationally presented facts speaking loudly for themselves. If the traditional art of 'lampoon' and caricature is to be exercised at the expense of Monsieur Rawat or others of that persuasion, let it be tasteful. By adopting a consideredtone, relevant material can be presented for the viewer to digest in an atmosphere of civilised and studious calm. (Much like in a municipal library). I say all this because it worries me deeply to think that if my dear Aunt Peggy were to stumble upon these pages, she may be given the unfortunate first impression that those who are disposed to publish their thoughts on the matter do so only upon a mad and improper impulse or with brash disrespect and intolerance for people of other faiths. This would be enough to set her surfing-off on a different tack straightaway, being a Christian Scientist herself. ( They embrace all religions and generally 'look on the bright side' of life.) To Persons Unmentionable - Although I am not going to be the forthcoming author of this website, can I ask whom I am addressing here? Thank you, Katie
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Date: Wed, Dec 24, 1997 at 00:16:55 (EST)
Poster: how about one bbc site
Email: bb
To: Katie
Subject: and one tabloid (Re: A little more BBC ?)
Message:
A different website could be available as well with some other approach, but davids' work reflects an expose format that m certainly deserves. David has really done impeccable work And I thank him.
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Date: Wed, Dec 24, 1997 at 00:36:20 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Bill
Subject: David the WebMaster (Re: A little more BBC ?)
Message:
A different website could be available as well with some other approach, but davids' work reflects an expose format that m certainly deserves. David has really done impeccable work And I thank him. I agree that David has done an impeccable job. I thank him also.
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Date: Wed, Dec 24, 1997 at 00:48:12 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email: joger02@aol.com
To: Persons unmentionabl
Subject: Re: A little more BBC ?
Message:
I agree that David has done one terrific job. Like anyone else I'm sure, there are things I would state differently or emphasize in another way. What I like about David's site is that there is something for everyone. From the most bizarre/tabloid, to the conservative historian. I'm always a little skeptical of telling people how they ought to express themselves. Ex-premies will be especially sensitive because, as premies, many of us were forced by peer pressure and cult mandates to only speak in certain ways, especially about Guru Maharaj Ji. I like the wide spectrum of attitudes and styles of expressing that appears on this forum. JW
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Date: Wed, Dec 24, 1997 at 10:50:45 (EST)
Poster: Mr Oxymoron
Email: mu
To: Persons unmentionabl
Subject: Re: A little more BBC ?
Message:
I gather David cannot continue to author this website. Without wishing to detract in any way at all from his marvellous achievements so far, might I ask whether his successor(s) would possibly try and exercise a little more conservative approach? David has his own highly poplular journalistic style which seems to me rather, shall we say, 'Channel 4' as opposed to 'BBC2' (if you live in England you will know what I mean). For example: The editor referring to persons as 'sad toekissers' (although embracing the popular new meaning of the word 'sad' and thus reaching out to a young audience) cannot help but engender a tone of confrontation and 'pillory' which I feel could toned down. Far better, in my opinion to remove the implied 'anger ' from the posture of the magazine and to present a welcoming and impartial, scholarly and, most importantly,inoffensive but comfy website, whose chief columnists do little to antagonise the subject(s) of their critiques. Their unsensationally presented facts speaking loudly for themselves. If the traditional art of 'lampoon' and caricature is to be exercised at the expense of Monsieur Rawat or others of that persuasion, let it be tasteful. By adopting a consideredtone, relevant material can be presented for the viewer to digest in an atmosphere of civilised and studious calm. (Much like in a municipal library). I say all this because it worries me deeply to think that if my dear Aunt Peggy were to stumble upon these pages, she may be given the unfortunate first impression that those who are disposed to publish their thoughts on the matter do so only upon a mad and improper impulse or with brash disrespect and intolerance for people of other faiths. This would be enough to set her surfing-off on a different tack straightaway, being a Christian Scientist herself. ( They embrace all religions and generally 'look on the bright side' of life.) so what if we all say that he is a lying fat bastard who plans to have a mass toekissing party?
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Date: Wed, Dec 24, 1997 at 15:39:12 (EST)
Poster: Nigel
Email: N_Craig@MSN.co.uk
To: Mr Oxymoron
Subject: Re: A little more BBC ?
Message:
I gather David cannot continue to author this website. Without wishing to detract in any way at all from his marvellous achievements so far, might I ask whether his successor(s) would possibly try and exercise a little more conservative approach? David has his own highly poplular journalistic style which seems to me rather, shall we say, 'Channel 4' as opposed to 'BBC2' (if you live in England you will know what I mean). For example: The editor referring to persons as 'sad toekissers' (although embracing the popular new meaning of the word 'sad' and thus reaching out to a young audience) cannot help but engender a tone of confrontation and 'pillory' which I feel could toned down. Far better, in my opinion to remove the implied 'anger ' from the posture of the magazine and to present a welcoming and impartial, scholarly and, most importantly,inoffensive but comfy website, whose chief columnists do little to antagonise the subject(s) of their critiques. Their unsensationally presented facts speaking loudly for themselves. If the traditional art of 'lampoon' and caricature is to be exercised at the expense of Monsieur Rawat or others of that persuasion, let it be tasteful. By adopting a consideredtone, relevant material can be presented for the viewer to digest in an atmosphere of civilised and studious calm. (Much like in a municipal library). I say all this because it worries me deeply to think that if my dear Aunt Peggy were to stumble upon these pages, she may be given the unfortunate first impression that those who are disposed to publish their thoughts on the matter do so only upon a mad and improper impulse or with brash disrespect and intolerance for people of other faiths. This would be enough to set her surfing-off on a different tack straightaway, being a Christian Scientist herself. ( They embrace all religions and generally 'look on the bright side' of life.) so what if we all say that he is a lying fat bastard who plans to have a mass toekissing party? Right on brother! (or does Mr Oxymoron = sister?) Tell it like it is. Where else can we let off steam? Try telling people in the normal world that you're still angry (after all these years) about being taken in by a self-styled 'perfect master' and they will (correctly?) conclude you must have been mad, and probably still are. At least here we can confess, discuss and share our insanity with a whole bunch of shiny happy heretics. And if we want to shout a bit, I'm sure most ex-premies will understand why. The BBC is brilliant for documentaries and period dramas. But they also do Vic and Bob, 'Have I got news?' and 'The Fast Show'. Even with the tastes of conservative license payers to consider, they get closer to the knuckle than most of the postings on this 'Blue Ribbon' site. Good luck, David, & well done. Keep posting too.
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Date: Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 21:48:07 (EST)
Poster: Nigel
Email:
To: Everyone
Subject: Does the poison run deeper than we
Message:
Does the poison run deeper than we suspect? Posting to this forum involves: - talking endlessly about GMJ and his 'knowledge' (satsang) - staying awake when we ought to be in bed (meditation) - trying to persuade lost souls that life could still have meaning (propagation) - wasting money (so what's new?) - the late-night phone link-up (ditto) - neglecting your family at Christmas (ditto) - having nothing to show for it all. It's yesterday once more... Best wishes and a Cool Yule Does the poison run deeper than we suspect? Posting to this forum involves: - talking endlessly about GMJ and his 'knowledge' (satsang) - staying awake when we ought to be in bed (meditation) - trying to persuade lost souls that life could still have meaning (propagation) - wasting money (so what's new?) - the late-night phone link-up (ditto) - neglecting your family at Christmas (ditto) - having nothing to show for it all. It's yesterday once more... Best wishes and a Cool Yule
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Date: Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 21:05:35 (EST)
Poster: Mr. Y
Email:
To: Everyone
Subject: Mass Suicide Likelyhood?
Message:
One thing about Indian Gurus, - I really don't know of any Indian gurus who have ever been involved with a mass suicide thing. To the best of my knowledge, the only cult mass suicides have occurred where the cult leader was a non Indian. Theory: The guru tradition in India is such an ancient and longstanding tradition that the Indians have learned how to be gurus without going off the deep end as bad as westerners (who are new to the whole trip.) Second theory: Whether Indian or westerner, anyone who claims to be the one and the only is certainly not the one and the only one to currently be afflicted with such a perversion!
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Date: Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 21:19:51 (EST)
Poster: Mike
Email: bigguy32@juno.com
To: Mr. Y
Subject: Re: Mass Suicide Likelyhood?
Message:
One thing about Indian Gurus, - I really don't know of any Indian gurus who have ever been involved with a mass suicide thing. To the best of my knowledge, the only cult mass suicides have occurred where the cult leader was a non Indian. Theory: The guru tradition in India is such an ancient and longstanding tradition that the Indians have learned how to be gurus without going off the deep end as bad as westerners (who are new to the whole trip.) Second theory: Whether Indian or westerner, anyone who claims to be the one and the only is certainly not the one and the only one to currently be afflicted with such a perversion! Mr Y - you might want to read up on the Thugie Cult in India during the British rule there. Thugies who served Maha Kali and a counsel of Guru's from the Behar State Region, had for 75 years, assaulted anyone they thought didn't meet up with their standards. It's where we get the word "Thug." Entire villages were found gerotted to death with their hearts torn out which included women, children, the old and the sick. All this was done on the agya of the counsel of Gurus which include 12 grand elders and 42 elders. There have been throughout Indian history, Gurus who've gone off the deep end and either ritually murder or had their chelas murder for them. As recent as 1940, there have been hundreds of Shudra (untouchables) killed on the orders of Gurus in the Tamil Region of India. If you need a recent example..., look at the Gandhi family murders by the Sihks.
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Date: Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 21:22:31 (EST)
Poster: Mike
Email: bigguy32@juno.com
To: Mike
Subject: Re: Mass Suicide Likelyhood?
Message:
One thing about Indian Gurus, - I really don't know of any Indian gurus who have ever been involved with a mass suicide thing. To the best of my knowledge, the only cult mass suicides have occurred where the cult leader was a non Indian. Theory: The guru tradition in India is such an ancient and longstanding tradition that the Indians have learned how to be gurus without going off the deep end as bad as westerners (who are new to the whole trip.) Second theory: Whether Indian or westerner, anyone who claims to be the one and the only is certainly not the one and the only one to currently be afflicted with such a perversion! Mr Y - you might want to read up on the Thugie Cult in India during the British rule there. Thugies who served Maha Kali and a counsel of Guru's from the Behar State Region, had for 75 years, assaulted anyone they thought didn't meet up with their standards. It's where we get the word 'Thug.' Entire villages were found gerotted to death with their hearts torn out which included women, children, the old and the sick. All this was done on the agya of the counsel of Gurus which include 12 grand elders and 42 elders. There have been throughout Indian history, Gurus who've gone off the deep end and either ritually murder or had their chelas murder for them. As recent as 1940, there have been hundreds of Shudra (untouchables) killed on the orders of Gurus in the Tamil Region of India. If you need a recent example..., look at the Gandhi family murders by the Sihks. I forgot to mention the mass suicides in Shri Lanka in 1971 and 1979 were Tamil Terrorist Guru instructed his chelas to strap bombs onto themselves and murder their enemy whether it be man, women or child. To date there have been 972 people commit terrorist suicide.
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Date: Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 21:34:02 (EST)
Poster: bftb
Email:
To: Mr. Y
Subject: Re: Mass Suicide Likelyhood?
Message:
One thing about Indian Gurus, - I really don't know of any Indian gurus who have ever been involved with a mass suicide thing. To the best of my knowledge, the only cult mass suicides have occurred where the cult leader was a non Indian. Theory: The guru tradition in India is such an ancient and longstanding tradition that the Indians have learned how to be gurus without going off the deep end as bad as westerners (who are new to the whole trip.) Second theory: Whether Indian or westerner, anyone who claims to be the one and the only is certainly not the one and the only one to currently be afflicted with such a perversion! I do hope noone really seriously entertains the notion that there would ever be a mass suicide amongst premies.Maybe I'm naive but I really find the concept ridiculous.Maharaji is not at all crazy,and neither are the premies.If the whole thing is a delusion it's a pretty pro-life delusion.I mean suicide?Furthest thing from what I found around Maharaji. Certain things about the way the system for the propogation of knowledge is set up do seem to fit classic cult models,but then so do so many organizations,like Amway for example.I don't think dlm/Ev is a cult by design,and I don't think that premies are brain washed zombies like you might find in real cults.And if Maharaji ever so much as hinted at showing signs of encroaching madness,or seemed at all to point in such bizarre directions as suicide;99.9% of premies would leave immediately and the remaining .1% would try and get him help. No way to the wierd stuff,it may be a bubble but if so it's filled with love anyway.
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Date: Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 23:20:38 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: bftb
Subject: Re: Mass Suicide Likelyhood?
Message:
One thing about Indian Gurus, - I really don't know of any Indian gurus who have ever been involved with a mass suicide thing. To the best of my knowledge, the only cult mass suicides have occurred where the cult leader was a non Indian. Theory: The guru tradition in India is such an ancient and longstanding tradition that the Indians have learned how to be gurus without going off the deep end as bad as westerners (who are new to the whole trip.) Second theory: Whether Indian or westerner, anyone who claims to be the one and the only is certainly not the one and the only one to currently be afflicted with such a perversion! I do hope noone really seriously entertains the notion that there would ever be a mass suicide amongst premies.Maybe I'm naive but I really find the concept ridiculous.Maharaji is not at all crazy,and neither are the premies.If the whole thing is a delusion it's a pretty pro-life delusion.I mean suicide?Furthest thing from what I found around Maharaji. Certain things about the way the system for the propogation of knowledge is set up do seem to fit classic cult models,but then so do so many organizations,like Amway for example.I don't think dlm/Ev is a cult by design,and I don't think that premies are brain washed zombies like you might find in real cults.And if Maharaji ever so much as hinted at showing signs of encroaching madness,or seemed at all to point in such bizarre directions as suicide;99.9% of premies would leave immediately and the remaining .1% would try and get him help. No way to the wierd stuff,it may be a bubble but if so it's filled with love anyway. Hear, Hear! :=) - Mili
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Date: Thurs, Dec 25, 1997 at 08:58:47 (EST)
Poster: Brian
Email:
To: Mr. Y
Subject: Re: Mass Suicide Likelyhood?
Message:
I don't think that Eastern vs. Western approaches to Guru-ing is as important as whether the cult is apocalyptic or utopian. The apocalyptic cults withdraw (ala Jim Jones, Comet Cruisers, etc) from the great unwashed, while the utopian cults believe that they're going to fix this world up (ala MJ's thousand years of peace - which will start any day now probably).
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Date: Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 18:19:41 (EST)
Poster: John Cavad
Email:
To: Everyone
Subject: To Old Timers: How Many of us?
Message:
I'm new around here. Please tell me, about how many ex-premies have actually found this site? I know there's only 60 listed on the white pages, but there's got to be more. When was the mass exodus? I think it was the early eighties. Thousands left then, I know. I'm curious for the benefit of spreading the word (no pun intended).
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Date: Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 18:27:39 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: John Cavad
Subject: Re: To Old Timers: How Many of us?
Message:
I'm new around here. Please tell me, about how many ex-premies have actually found this site? I know there's only 60 listed on the white pages, but there's got to be more. When was the mass exodus? I think it was the early eighties. Thousands left then, I know. I'm curious for the benefit of spreading the word (no pun intended). Dear John - almost all the people who have ever posted on here (as far as I know, and I've read the archives) are listed in the White Pages...except for those people who prefer to use pseudonyms. I personally know several ex-premies who know about the site, have read some of the stuff on the web site, but don't post on the forum. JW knows at least several more, I believe. Not sure about the date of the mass exodus (if there was one) - I left in 1977, just about when things started to get kind of heavy (after loosening up for a while.) It's really nice to have new people posting on the site, by the way.
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Date: Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 18:30:02 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email:
To: John C.
Subject: Re: To Old Timers: How Many of us?
Message:
Oh yeah I forgot to say that I know some people who read the forum all the time, but don't post on it. The people that I know are ex-premies, but I think premies do it too, from what I've heard
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Date: Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 18:50:43 (EST)
Poster: John Cavad
Email:
To: Katie
Subject: Re: To Old Timers: How Many of us?
Message:
Thanks, Katie. You left in 1977 when all the action heated up to a boil. It was great! I was on a plane every 6 weeks back then creating my own personal national deficit. I would think more premies than ex-premies are tacitly reading this site, especially since they lost there own site. I'll bet you it's affecting many of them. Few have the ability to write back, not cause they don't have the courage, but because they're getting scared and confused. Few premies are like those few that respond with debates. Perhaps, knowing how many hits this site gets may reveal more?
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Date: Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 20:18:43 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: John Cavad
Subject: Re: To Old Timers: How Many of us?
Message:
I'll suggest a site counter to the new webmaster, whoever he or she may be (actually you just suggested it and I'll relay the suggestion). It might be a good idea. I read your Journeys entry and really liked it, by the way. I was at that Guru Puja program in Providence in 1976 and I thought it was great. That's when things were starting to loosen up and become less "devoted" (I remember I actually wore a skirt that revealed my calves and ankles...) I also remember seeing a lot of former ashram premies that I knew from other cities with their new girlfriends and/or boyfriends (or husbands and wives), which I liked a lot. I didn't remember the darshan scene that you described until I read your Journeys post - now I sort of do. I think I might have also gone to GMJ's birthday party in Atlantic city that year, but I can't remember that either - was it before they built all the casinos in Atlantic City? (I do remember his 16th birthday party, which I think was also in Atlantic City, because it was a costume party and the premies sang the song "16 Candles"). By the way, I wish the premies could have their own site again - some of them seem like they would like it. A forum like this is pretty easy to set up, and not that expensive.
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Date: Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 17:58:07 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Everyone
Subject: Why Did We Leave?
Message:
John K. wrote something below in the ex-premie festival thread that made me want to start a new thread. He wrote "Each of us could have the opportunity to get up and give satsang about why we left, how we feel about it now, etc. I am really curious to know why the people posting on here left Maharaji's organization (if they did leave that is.) I'd be interested to hear people's stories, if anyone cares to post them.
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Date: Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 18:43:34 (EST)
Poster: John Cavad
Email:
To: Katie
Subject: Re: Why Did We Leave?
Message:
I left for many reasons. Some of the top ones were: 1. I was unable to find a balance between making it in the real world with an unatural lifestaye with M. His ways contradicted the ways of survival in the world. How can I be a responsible person in the local or world community with S, S & M and darshan. How could I even hold down a job??? This is the Western world, not India where that behavior is acceptable. 2. The final straw is I found myself in a new relationship with someone who never heard of M (my future and current wife). I didn't want to get her into it. I got my first wife successfully into it (which ended up in divorce when I found her banging other blissful premies). 3. I was older, more mature. Before the age of 25, most people are confused in so many ways and need to experiment with almost everything. Being around M gave me lots of new and exciting experiences. But I had enough. 4. I found all the premies becoming very much out there...creating ther own religion. I thought I was with the Moonies after awhile. I couldn't relate to them anymore yet I thought I could still relate to M at that time. In my last year or so as a premie, I only went to see him, and hardly went to Satsang at the ashram where some of the girls were getting knocked up by very blissful male premies filled with love. 5. Other premies were dropping out who were once so devoted. Why? Cause they were in their mind? Please. Because they were growing up. I never dropped out because I disliked M or his laudable goals (World Peace back then). I had no resentment towards him, and still don't, surprisingly. However, I was tired of his constant demands for complete devotion 200 percent of the time. Simply, I realized my life wasn't going anywhere. Getting high is great and a natural desire for every living creature. If I stayed with M, I think I would have been no better than a pot head: always high, having fun, and making nothing out of life while behaving like a total social outcast. Being a freak was no longer my idea of moving forward in my life.
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Date: Wed, Dec 24, 1997 at 15:50:02 (EST)
Poster: Nigel
Email:
To: Katie
Subject: Re: Why Did We Leave?
Message:
John K. wrote something below in the ex-premie festival thread that made me want to start a new thread. He wrote 'Each of us could have the opportunity to get up and give satsang about why we left, how we feel about it now, etc. I am really curious to know why the people posting on here left Maharaji's organization (if they did leave that is.) I'd be interested to hear people's stories, if anyone cares to post them. It's a long story, but having read the previous posting which has spooky echoes of my own experience, I will add something to this thread in a couple of days when I haven't drunk quite so much seasonal good cheer. Happy Christmas!
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Date: Fri, Dec 26, 1997 at 19:54:04 (EST)
Poster: Nigel
Email: N_Craig@msn.co.uk
To: Katie
Subject: Re: above posting (Re: Why Did We Leave?)
Message:
John K. wrote something below in the ex-premie festival thread that made me want to start a new thread. He wrote 'Each of us could have the opportunity to get up and give satsang about why we left, how we feel about it now, etc. I am really curious to know why the people posting on here left Maharaji's organization (if they did leave that is.) I'd be interested to hear people's stories, if anyone cares to post them. It's a long story, but having read the previous posting which has spooky echoes of my own experience, I will add something to this thread in a couple of days when I haven't drunk quite so much seasonal good cheer. Happy Christmas! Katie, the post I was going to write is pretty well covered in my new thread 'Generation Gap' (Friday)
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Date: Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 15:20:27 (EST)
Poster: Rodney King
Email:
To: Everyone
Subject: A message from me to you
Message:
"Can't we all get along?"
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Date: Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 16:38:28 (EST)
Poster: bb
Email: bb
To: Rodney King
Subject: Re: A message from me to you
Message:
sorry, no way.
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Date: Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 16:47:09 (EST)
Poster: bftb
Email:
To: Rodney King
Subject: Re: A message from me to you
Message:
'Can't we all get along?' Call me ignorant but it seems that most people do get along here.Very little personal insult takes place.Heated discussion of ideas yes,but that's extremely healthy.I learn alot from all these exchanges. I used to engage in very heated discussion of ideas with a former business partner of mine.It always puzzled us when an onlooker would think we were 'having an argument' or 'fighting'.It never felt or was that way to us;it was just how the really good discussions would get.No harm or negativity was felt or intended.
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Date: Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 16:55:33 (EST)
Poster: John K.
Email:
To: bftb
Subject: Re: A message from me to you
Message:
what does bftb stand for? Your initials or something else?
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Date: Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 18:36:06 (EST)
Poster: bftb
Email:
To: John K.
Subject: Re: A message from me to you
Message:
what does bftb stand for? Your initials or something else? means nothing really-original post was bystander from the beginning and 2nd was bftb and someone suggested that sticking with bftb would avoid confusion.I agreed.
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Date: Wed, Dec 24, 1997 at 10:50:28 (EST)
Poster: John K.
Email:
To: bftb
Subject: Re: A message from me to you
Message:
So...originally you intended to be a bystander, or a non participant? Ahh, the best laid plans of mice and men.
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Date: Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 14:26:44 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Everyone
Subject: The 'Topic'
Message:
Well, I was going through the posts today, and it's funny - with almost what Bobby would call a 'mirror like' frame of mind. I was reading the 'pros' and 'cons' with like, no judgement at all. Maybe I am fed up with all this, or maybe I am in some kind of non-dual consciousness due to the little meditation I did last night. Anyway, I thought, 'what is all this fuss about, anyway?' Everyone thinks what they want to think, and no one can change anyone's opinion it seems. But, as Annie said, the door to this 'cult' was and is always open - you can walk in and out anytime, and figuring things out for yourself was never the issue. Understanding was the fifth thing, remember? I knew that for a long time - maybe some of you 'ex' people (especially the ashram premies) are just discovering it. But, remember, it was Maharaji himself who dissolved the ashrams. Maybe it WAS his care for you - maybe he DID see that 'chastity, poverty and obedience' were too heavy for you, and knowing that you would never break the sincere vows that you made by yourself, he made it easy for you by saying 'Go out there, have fun, and never fear - my blessings are with you always'. Attacks on Maharaji will just have a homogenizing effect on the premies. By attacking him you are making him a martyr, and yes, it is free publicity. I know that with every sneer and insult I received here, I just became more steadfast in the 'pro' position. Sorry, Mr Ex - I just can't buy the 'he is a bad guy' stuff - he's said too many deep things and he's also made me laugh when I was down too many times for me to believe the negative shit. Anyway Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year to all, Sincerely, - Mili
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Date: Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 15:19:31 (EST)
Poster: John K.
Email:
To: Mili
Subject: Re: The 'Topic'
Message:
you wrote: "or maybe I am in some kind of non-dual consciousness due to the little meditation I did last night." Just curius...but...What is non-dual consciousness? and...Do you think how much meditation you did last night has anything to do with your life today? I think the exchange of ideas (especially between deluded non enlightened confused ex's) can definetly be overdone, but for some one who has been incommunicado for 15 years, I aint even got started yet. And actually I have been meaning to ask you about something you said way down deep in the threads somewhere. We were discussing how much crazier america was from europe and you said that your country did not have a bob mishler. But the heaviest craziness I experienced was long after mishler was gone, and wouldn't you think that in the country /and in fact the city/ and in fact the neighborhood that maharaji has his residence that things would be the clearest and not the craziest? I know the old premie answer to this...the MIND gets heaveier the closer it gets to M. That was the standard explanation for why things were so crazy around M. Welllll...enjoy yourSelf
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Date: Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 15:33:07 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: John K.
Subject: Re: The 'Topic'
Message:
you wrote: 'or maybe I am in some kind of non-dual consciousness due to the little meditation I did last night.' Just curius...but...What is non-dual consciousness? and...Do you think how much meditation you did last night has anything to do with your life today? What I feel today (now) is a calm and a relief of a mirror-like, non-arguing consciousness. Like a placid lake. And I clearly see that the body and the mind are one thing, but permeating it all is the consciousness. Sorry, but I just don't feel like arguing about all the other stuff. Try meditating. It won't bite you. It's always a surprise.
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Date: Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 16:53:06 (EST)
Poster: John K.
Email:
To: Mili
Subject: Re: The 'Topic'
Message:
Thanks mili for bringing back to me what it was like to live with premies... hallelujiah, I'm free!!!! free from having to deal with housefathers, initiators, festival coordinators, gurus, housemothers, sisters, brothers, smiling their plastic phony smiles, saying: 'try a little meditation, it won't bite' Oh, something wrong? Oh bother, brother, can't you just meditate, all your questions will go away! That sounds just so inane to me.. How do you know I am not already meditating? Or can you sense my vibe? mind and body one thing? I understand though, you are beyond this type of low vibe discussion, you are too deep into the Experience to be bothered with communicating coherently and intelligently. I suspect though that you like this page and you like all of this discussion, because it's a perspective you won't get anywhere else. We've been fully immersed into m's world, the worship scene, you are still in it. when I was in it, I did not have the luxury of talking like this to those who had left. I think our being here just might make a difference. 'Try meditating. It won't bite you. It's always a surprise.' That's not my experience, sometimes it's very predictable and boring.
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Date: Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 16:57:53 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: John K.
Subject: Re: The 'Topic'
Message:
That's not my experience, sometimes it's very predictable and boring. Yeah, man, and so are you.
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Date: Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 17:49:15 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Mili
Subject: Re: The 'Topic'
Message:
Everyone thinks what they want to think, and no one can change anyone's opinion it seems. Well Mili, my opinion has changed about one thing. I used to think you were a hateful person and now I kind of like you. Same with some of the other premies (and even some of the ex-premies) on this forum. That seems to be a small step forward, or at least I hope it is. Happy New Year to you too. Katie
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Date: Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 23:59:46 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Mili
Subject: Re: The 'Topic'
Message:
By the way, Mili, I very much liked your post about the seashell. I have listened to the inside of a seashell but I never heard that inside.
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Date: Wed, Dec 24, 1997 at 02:45:45 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Katie
Subject: Re: The 'Topic'
Message:
Everyone thinks what they want to think, and no one can change anyone's opinion it seems. Well Mili, my opinion has changed about one thing. I used to think you were a hateful person and now I kind of like you. Same with some of the other premies (and even some of the ex-premies) on this forum. That seems to be a small step forward, or at least I hope it is. Happy New Year to you too. Katie Katie, I am NOT a hateful person. If I appear hateful, it is only because I express my disgust at prejudice and bigotry, and having a heavy cult trip laid over me by someone who has never seen or met me in real life, and doesn't even know what Maharaji is all about or even bothers to find out. By this, I am not referring specifically to you - but I think you could also benefit by attending one of the programs, or at least seeing a recent video, in order to get a more realistic and objective picture of what this is really all about. Don't worry - you can always get 'reprogrammed' by listening to the Grateful Dead again! - Mili
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Date: Wed, Dec 24, 1997 at 03:23:59 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email:
To: Mili
Subject: Re: The 'Topic'
Message:
Everyone thinks what they want to think, and no one can change anyone's opinion it seems. Well Mili, my opinion has changed about one thing. I used to think you were a hateful person and now I kind of like you. Same with some of the other premies (and even some of the ex-premies) on this forum. That seems to be a small step forward, or at least I hope it is. Happy New Year to you too. Katie Katie, I am NOT a hateful person. If I appear hateful, it is only because I express my disgust at prejudice and bigotry, and having a heavy cult trip laid over me by someone who has never seen or met me in real life, and doesn't even know what Maharaji is all about or even bothers to find out. By this, I am not referring specifically to you - but I think you could also benefit by attending one of the programs, or at least seeing a recent video, in order to get a more realistic and objective picture of what this is really all about. Don't worry - you can always get 'reprogrammed' by listening to the Grateful Dead again! - Mili Mili - I didn't say that I thought you were hateful NOW - I said I used to think that when I first started posting on here. I said that now I "kinda like you." That is a compliment, and I hope you take it as such. I have changed my mind about you after reading your postings. I really don't want to watch any videos or attend any of the programs. I am afraid it might have an opposite affect to what you might hope it would have on me - I just am very averse to those things now. All I wanted to say is that I had changed my feeling about you from a bad feeling to a good feeling, and if nothing else gets accomplished on this forum, at least that is one positive thing. Best wishes for a happy New Year, Katie
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Date: Wed, Dec 24, 1997 at 03:47:47 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: John K.
Subject: Re: The 'Topic'
Message:
Thanks mili for bringing back to me what it was like to live with premies... Well, that's why you come to this forum for, right? - Mili
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Date: Wed, Dec 24, 1997 at 19:23:18 (EST)
Poster: Nigel
Email: N_Craig@msn.co.uk
To: John K.
Subject: Re: The 'Topic'
Message:
>How do you know I am not already meditating? Great post, John. I suspect most ex-premies do meditate, on and off, when they feel like it, and the methods have been public domain for donkeys years (yoga books, etc). It's called relaxing. It's quite easy, come to think of it, poking your fingers here and there, and sticking your tongue up. Why doesn't GMJ go on the chat-shows and reveal the techniques to the world, saying 'take it or leave it' instead of making you wait nine months and then sit through a seven hour knowledge session before prostrating yourself full-length on the carpet promising to 'surrender the reins of your life...'? Does he think he's someone special, or what?
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Date: Wed, Dec 24, 1997 at 21:08:45 (EST)
Poster: current premie
Email:
To: Nigel
Subject: Re: The 'Topic'
Message:
It might benefit you to watch a current video regarding the receiving knowledge process. It is currently at least 5 mos. of consistent video watching and a succinct session with Maharaji, excluding any prostarting. Of course it is entirely Maharaji's discretion to change the process whenever or if ever he should choose to.
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Date: Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 12:41:10 (EST)
Poster: John Cavad
Email:
To: Everyone
Subject: Ex-Premie Fesival Fantasy
Message:
If we had our own ex-premies' festival, how would we do it? We should run it for two, maybe three days over a weekend. Hold it in Malibu, California very close by to M’s house. We must make sure he’ll be in town that weekend. We should invite a few famous authors of Cult books (or books on famous dictators) to speak on brainwashing, hold open panels, seminars, and have our own version of Satsang. Maybe we could invite Ted Patrick, the once famous deprogrammer to speak. We'll sell books on our favorite subjects. We need to have a band. Every good party has a band. Megadeath? Perhaps create our own band since many of us are musicians. Prior to the event notify the press: local news, Dan Rather, and CNN (for world coverage). Let’s invite all the Hasidic Jews that would hang outside the Miami convention center dragging premies into their vans to bring them back to the Tora. They would be so proud of us now. Any more ideas?
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Date: Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 14:38:12 (EST)
Poster: Bobby
Email:
To: John Cavad
Subject: Re: Ex-Premie Fesival Fantasy
Message:
Sounds worse than the Republican National Convention.
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Date: Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 14:43:10 (EST)
Poster: John K.
Email:
To: John Cavad
Subject: Re: Ex-Premie Fesival Fantasy
Message:
Each of us could have the opportunity to get up and give "ss" about why we left, how we feel about it now, etc. Then we could have a darshan line of sorts, each of us take a turn in front of a video camera and tell m stuff that we wished we either had told him before or could tell him now. Then send him the tapes. Just to let him know how we have been doing since leaving him. Or is all of this just way too out there?
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Date: Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 15:06:01 (EST)
Poster: John Cavad
Email:
To: John K.
Subject: Re: Ex-Premie Fesival Fantasy
Message:
Good ideas, John. Though, M would never look at the video since Premies would destroy it first. How about we all dig up our barogans (sp?) and build a tree house out of them on M's front lawn?
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Date: Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 11:34:05 (EST)
Poster: d@vid
Email: d@vid
To: Everyone
Subject: John's Journey
Message:

A wonderfully evocative journey just dropped into the ex-premie site today. Click here to read John Cavad's story of life as a sad toe-kisser.

%00
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Date: Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 09:50:18 (EST)
Poster: premie
Email: thestrong@earthlink.net
To: Everyone
Subject: interest
Message:
This internet stuff is all new to me, but being a video watching, program going, practicing premie, I thought you might find it interesting to know that no one (let alone M) has warned me about staying away fromthis web.
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Date: Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 10:48:44 (EST)
Poster: John K.
Email:
To: premie
Subject: Re: interest
Message:
This internet stuff is all new to me, but being a video watching, program going, practicing premie, I thought you might find it interesting to know that no one (let alone M) has warned me about staying away fromthis web. I am not surprised. When I was involved, I never believed in all the rumors that swirled around about what M wants or does not want us to do, and I still don't believe in them. I think maybe some people on this site want to think we are that important that M felt it necessary to keep premies away from us. I remember there used to be a rumor that M did not want anyone to use q tips. So they were removed from the ashram I was in.
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Date: Wed, Dec 24, 1997 at 09:16:12 (EST)
Poster: premie
Email:
To: John K.
Subject: Re: interest
Message:
This internet stuff is all new to me, but being a video watching, program going, practicing premie, I thought you might find it interesting to know that no one (let alone M) has warned me about staying away fromthis web. I am not surprised. When I was involved, I never believed in all the rumors that swirled around about what M wants or does not want us to do, and I still don't believe in them. I think maybe some people on this site want to think we are that important that M felt it necessary to keep premies away from us. I remember there used to be a rumor that M did not want anyone to use q tips. So they were removed from the ashram I was in. yeah, it's been a long process to understand and implement in my living my right size ie: a worker among workers, a spec in the universe, while actually understanding the importance of me to me. This understanding has made my life so much richer and enjoyable and changed so much of what and how I do things. Why did you leave?
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Date: Wed, Dec 24, 1997 at 10:33:41 (EST)
Poster: premie again
Email:
To: John K.
Subject: Re: interest
Message:
I read your "sense of balance" of same date which answers why you left. To each his own. I feel the same way, but didn't "leave". For the longest time I believed that M was the answer for everyone. This is plainly not so. As he's always said, the answer(s) are within.
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Date: Wed, Dec 24, 1997 at 11:57:45 (EST)
Poster: John K.
Email:
To: premie again
Subject: Re: interest
Message:
I don't like reading my own posts so I don't know what i wrote. Something took me over and walked me out of the ashram. That same something would not let me go back although for several years I fully intended to, I just never did. A little over a year ago I did go and watch some videos shown locally. I liked them in a way, but I felt my mind becoming numb from watching and listening to m. I just felt I had to turn my intelligence off to be able to listen. But, enough of that, I REALLY have no interest in convincing anyone of anything. I gotta get going The earth is now supposed to begin it's journey back towards the sun, which is a very good reason to celebrate! John
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Date: Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 03:55:08 (EST)
Poster: Annie
Email: aerily@aol.com
To: Anyone
Subject: A Sense of Balance
Message:
I think it is worthwhile to make this point, for anyone coming upon this forum for the first time: that although most (not all) people who post here are not favorably disposed towards Maharaji, there are many who respect him highly and value his teaching. The Knowledge which he offers is a highly individual experience, and each person must come to his or her own individual conclusions. Some here claim that Maharaji is dangerous; that people are brainwashed, and lured into a cult from which it is difficult to escape. My own experience of knowing Maharaji and being a student of his for twenty-five years is so very different from that claim, that I wonder at times if I have stumbled through the looking glass into this forum, another dimension entirely. My own perspective: Maharaji has been the catalyst in my life for so much growth; he has inspired me, and challenged me; he has empowered me to know myself, to face life, and death, and fear; to become a student of Life itself, the omnipresent teacher. He has shown me a simple way to connect my awareness within myself, to clarity and stillness of mind; and encouraged me over and over again to look there, within myself, for truth. From there I have learned much about love, compassion, understanding, true strength, courage, real freedom; there within myself I have discovered the thread which connects human beings to one another: the delicate, powerful, exquisitely beautiful thread of life itself. I have many times heard Maharaji encourage those who were listening to him, to question, to test the Knowledge, to think, to feel, to trust themselves; and to freely walk away if dissatisfied with what he offers. Annie Sosman http://members.aol.com/aerily/index.html (still under construction)
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Date: Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 08:49:42 (EST)
Poster: songs
Email: bb
To: Annie
Subject: Re: A Sense of Balance
Message:
what about the songs?
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Date: Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 11:10:27 (EST)
Poster: John K.
Email: Kreilkamp@mindspring.com
To: Annie
Subject: Re: A Sense of Balance
Message:
Annie: Thank you. I personally love hearing diverse viewpoints. Which is probably why I had to leave M. It got to be just too much the same thing over and over. Let me get on my soapbox, I was with M for about 10 years and have been gone for 15. I had a great time with him and I met some great people,etc. etc. I left because something snapped in me. It was like a switch got turned either off or on suddenly I could no longer stay. It was like a light went on and I suddenly saw everything in a different perspective. I was 'myself' again. Gone was all the interest and dependence on M. Something about it felt wonderful, and it was also very difficult at first. I definetly felt/feel much more in balance now that I no longer have any interest in M. Now I listen to M like I listen to everyone else - with my judgement and reason fully intact. What he says does make some sense but it strikes me as not quite enough. I don't enjoy looking at his form anymore. I get bored watching him. I wonder why he wants to show his form so much in the videos. I agree with you that if he is dangerous, what do you call the 'real' dangers in the world like the oklahoma city bombing, unsafe sex, the list is truly endless.
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Date: Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 22:43:00 (EST)
Poster: What balance?
Email: bb
To: Annie
Subject: He is the fake lord and you cover it up (Re: A Sense of Balance)
Message:
You said 'to become a student of life itself, the omnipresent teacher' prem rawat very clearly makes the claim that the omnipresent teacher is the master, is himself. He blatently presents himself as the superiour power in person and the one to whom love and the devotion that should or could go to god go to him and to serve him and to experience the knowledge fully you will have to have this imaginary connection to him. Do you deny that he has repeatedly and consistantly done this up to and includeing the recent program in LA? You ignore this issue like it is the imagination of some losers. Sorry, but you are not being honest here. You are tiptoeing around and poo pooing the notion that he is peresenting himself as the lord. this is inaccurate and I can easily prove it. but don't you already know it?
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Date: Wed, Dec 24, 1997 at 00:33:48 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: What balance?
Subject: Re: He is the fake lord and you cover it up (Re: A Sense of Balance)
Message:
You said 'to become a student of life itself, the omnipresent teacher' prem rawat very clearly makes the claim that the omnipresent teacher is the master, is himself. He blatently presents himself as the superiour power in person and the one to whom love and the devotion that should or could go to god go to him and to serve him and to experience the knowledge fully you will have to have this imaginary connection to him. Do you deny that he has repeatedly and consistantly done this up to and includeing the recent program in LA? You ignore this issue like it is the imagination of some losers. Sorry, but you are not being honest here. You are tiptoeing around and poo pooing the notion that he is peresenting himself as the lord. this is inaccurate and I can easily prove it. but don't you already know it? Bill, don't you see, both Annie and OP believe Maharaji IS the superior power in person. They won't say it out loud, but they don't deny that M claims it as well. It's the typical dilemma of premies (and of Maharaji). They really believe that M is an omniscient being, with great powers, in fact the incarnation of god, but they won't say that because they know it sounds insane!!!! JW
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Date: Wed, Dec 24, 1997 at 01:16:47 (EST)
Poster: jw
Email: bb
To: JW
Subject: you are something else (Re: A Sense of Balance)
Message:
Thanks for the laugh and the wave of sense. I will stop bothering them about this now that I understand. I guess the bbc website could just focus on this issue alone as a public service. That comment of jesus/yeshua comes to mind again, 'as you believe so shall it be done unto you' So the real power/friend will dole out some real experiences to the sheep even though the leader is pretending to be the power. And/or we create a lot of the apparent experiences ourselves I have been noticeing more and more lately how people respond to musicians and actors and celebraties and I also saw a picture of richard nixon walking down the white house walk with staff lined up on both sides and the looks they were giving to nixon were amazing, It was some totally exuberant adoration love bliss looks and I am talking kissenger, haldeman,colson, and this was halfway through watergate! We are incredibly oriented to worship. And there is no one alive now or ever who warrents this on thier merit. We hand it out to ANYBODY without knowing them at all. and of course there are consequenses.
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Date: Wed, Dec 24, 1997 at 07:50:41 (EST)
Poster: Annie
Email:
To: billy
Subject: the omnipresent teacher (Re: A Sense of Balance)
Message:
Your brain is all screwed up. I have no problem with him being God, the omnipresent almighty anything, or satan, or whatever anyone wants to label him. Can't you get that through your ratty molecules? That's not the point. There is no need of definition. He has shown me something; that is who he is to me. I do not worship him according to any definition of anything.
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Date: Wed, Dec 24, 1997 at 07:54:40 (EST)
Poster: A
Email:
To: JW
Subject: speak for yourself, only. (Re: A Sense of Balance)
Message:
Joe, you do not know me, nor what I think, nor what I believe, and I do not presume to speak for you; so don't write things that someone who has not compromised their intelligence would not write.
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Date: Wed, Dec 24, 1997 at 09:52:49 (EST)
Poster: rat
Email: bb
To: Annie
Subject: brain (Re: A Sense of Balance)
Message:
I have a problem with 'him being god the omnipresent almighty anything' because it is not true and the consequences of him doing this false front can be / are huge in peoples life. Also, there already is a set of standards that jesus and others have stated and top of the list is falsehood. And the hindu "it's ok to see me as god' thing qualifies as falsehood big time. Plus ask my family if there was no consequences to this whole thing of me implicitly trusting maharaji. Really trusting him and believing him, you say you only relate to him as someone who has shown something to you, well that is not what he used to ask for, and that is not what he asks for now. If you put blinders on, sure, this trip of his is not any real problem anywhere, it's upbeat and hey, the knowledge isn't bad and so what about the songs, so what about what he says for the zealots in the audience, so what about the fact that he is trying to pull off a global fake out. So what about the precedent that his behavior as the lord will set for the future. He does not care about the results of his personal behaviour as an example to others.
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Date: Wed, Dec 24, 1997 at 10:42:56 (EST)
Poster: premie
Email:
To: Annie
Subject: Re: the omnipresent teacher (Re: A Sense of Balance)
Message:
Agreed and my mind is in better working order than it's ever been.
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Date: Wed, Dec 24, 1997 at 11:31:00 (EST)
Poster: Mr Ex
Email:
To: Annie
Subject: Re: the omnipresent teacher (Re: A Sense of Balance)
Message:
Your brain is all screwed up. I have no problem with him being God, the omnipresent almighty anything, or satan, or whatever anyone wants to label him. Can't you get that through your ratty molecules? That's not the point. There is no need of definition. He has shown me something; that is who he is to me. I do not worship him according to any definition of anything. >Your brain is all screwed up. Mine must be too ..... let me check ..... >I have no problem with him being God, the omnipresent almighty anything, or satan, or >whatever anyone wants to label him. Can't you get that through your ratty molecules? I perfectly accept that anyone labels him the way they want. BUT : Labels don’t change his nature, nor do they give any valid indication, except for what the person who makes the label thinks he is. >That's not the point. There is no need of definition. He has shown me something; that >is who he is to me. Same thing for me .... BUT : you have to accept there could be a problem here. Whatever you perceive is nothing but what you perceive. Your perceptions are influenced by many factors you might be unaware of ! (Tons of books already written and theses made on this issue) And it’s a big job to understand those factors for oneself. Whatever is ‘shown’ to me (or you) doesn’t prove anything : there are some very good illusionists, some very good professionals. The rhetoric you are using is what Mr PPR has repeated for years, millions of times : you recognized the tree by his fruits. This is valid for trees of course. You could find millions of instances where it’s not. This is where our minds have been screwed up by Mr PPR’s rhetoric. This has a name I’m not sure in English. Sophism ? Right ? This is what you learn in your first philosophy course. Mr PPR did erase that. This is why I call this ‘brainwashing’. >I do not worship him according to any definition of anything. I don’t worship him anymore I am very thankful for those who thought about the thinking process itself. I am very thankful for those who tried to understand the reasons of these strange human behaviors. I am very thankful for those who taught me how to think on my own, and to question my teachers. I am still very angry towards charlatans who harmed the persons I love (including myself).
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Date: Wed, Dec 24, 1997 at 11:45:17 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Annie
Subject: Re: the omnipresent teacher (Re: A Sense of Balance)
Message:
Your brain is all screwed up. I have no problem with him being God, the omnipresent almighty anything, or satan, or whatever anyone wants to label him. Can't you get that through your ratty molecules? That's not the point. There is no need of definition. He has shown me something; that is who he is to me. I do not worship him according to any definition of anything. Yeah, Annie, this is the problem with these people. They wrestle with all these concepts and definitions that in fact, they invent for themselves - instead of trying to perceive things as they are. Wasn't there something in the Tao Teh Ching about how things are what they are but when we name them, we fragment 'it' into our little patchwork of concepts, and that is the root of our problems because we can never fit it all together again? Like kids trying to make a real dog, tree or cloud out of Lego bricks. Maharaji is who he is, and he has stated quite plainly that he is going do do what he wants to do and be who he wants to be, and not what you expect him to be. I find pleasure and relief in having my limited concepts and expectations blown. If someone doesn't think that is cool - they can find another guru.
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Date: Wed, Dec 24, 1997 at 12:28:32 (EST)
Poster: Mr Ex
Email:
To: Mili
Subject: Please use your brains (Re: A Sense of Balance)
Message:
>Yeah, Annie, this is the problem with these people. They wrestle with all >these concepts and definitions that in fact, they invent for themselves - >instead of trying to perceive things as they are. Mr PPR Himself is inviting you (and me) to use your brain and think. No limits. Those concepts are not ours. Generations of human beings have already been thinking upon those issues. Mr PPR’s rhetoric is his own. You don’t have to buy it. Maybe he is a wise man. You have to gain your own wisdom. Not by dumping all logic and whatever you have already learned. Whatever you perceive IS NOT what something is. It is WHAT YOU PERCEIVE. Nothing more. This an extremely important issue. >Wasn't there something in the Tao Teh Ching about how things are >what they are but when we name them, we fragment 'it' into our little >patchwork of concepts, and that is the root of our problems because >we can never fit it all together again? Like kids trying to make a real >dog, tree or cloud out of Lego bricks. Are you an idiot ? Can’t you be as wise as the guy who said that ? Who said that you can’t reason and think in depth ? You are no child and you brain is a very powerful tool. Do you fear what could be your own conclusions ? If God is really God, he will be with you even in your deepest thoughts. Trust ! (Sounds familiar) >Maharaji is who he is, and he has stated quite plainly that he is going >do do what he wants to do and be who he wants to be, and not what >you expect him to be. Do you really think he is almighty ? The supreme power in person ? Do you believe this ? he is Hari ? (like he said) >I find pleasure and relief in having my limited concepts and >expectations blown. If someone doesn't think that is cool - they can find >another guru. No need to stay with your ‘limited concepts’. You can be a very wise man, and know as much as Mr PPR knows. Maybe even more. He said many times that he is here to take you where he is. Do you have to renounce your intelligence and your brain’s faculties for this ? If you do, anybody has every right to call you an idiot. I don’t want to be called an idiot anymore.
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Date: Wed, Dec 24, 1997 at 13:02:31 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Mr Ex
Subject: Re: Please use your brains (Re: A Sense of Balance)
Message:
Mr.Ex, my brains are O.K. and I do use them. I've worked with autistic children, I read some Piaget and used his classification to prepare occupational therapy classes. I like to read - at the moment I am reading Kitty Ferguson's 'Fire in the Equations' (great book - about Hawking, Penrose and Dawkins). Before that, I read a lot of Stephen Jay Gould. Evolutionary biology. And I like Desm,ond Morris' 'The Naked Ape' and 'The Human Zoo'. Sociobiology. I've never, ever drawn the conclusion from M's satsangs that he wanted me to stop reading or thinking, or using my brain. Actually, that would be detrimental for my work as a computer literacy teacher for adults. And I am doing pretty well. But meditation is about EXPERIENCE and PERCEPTION, and that's why M is interesting to me - what he has to say about meditation, the practical advice he can give about that. I've never felt him impose some dogma on me. His message has always been plain and simple, consistently during the last 25 years, - experience, see, feel what there is inside of you. NOT 'worship me, don't think and give me all your money'. As far as I am concerned, he has conveniently dissapeared out of my life about 10 years ago, leaving me on my own with the Knowledge. NO damnation warnings, NO 'you'll go to hell' if you don't come to the programs or Knowledge reviews. Just me, and the Knowledge, and all the time in the world to live a completely normal life and figure things out for myself.
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Date: Wed, Dec 24, 1997 at 20:11:23 (EST)
Poster: a
Email:
To: bbduck
Subject: Re: brain (Re: A Sense of Balance)
Message:
i think you have quacked up.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 25, 1997 at 03:26:35 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: JW
Subject: Re: He is the fake lord and you cover it up (Re: A Sense of Balance)
Message:
You said 'to become a student of life itself, the omnipresent teacher' prem rawat very clearly makes the claim that the omnipresent teacher is the master, is himself. He blatently presents himself as the superiour power in person and the one to whom love and the devotion that should or could go to god go to him and to serve him and to experience the knowledge fully you will have to have this imaginary connection to him. Do you deny that he has repeatedly and consistantly done this up to and includeing the recent program in LA? You ignore this issue like it is the imagination of some losers. Sorry, but you are not being honest here. You are tiptoeing around and poo pooing the notion that he is peresenting himself as the lord. this is inaccurate and I can easily prove it. but don't you already know it? Bill, don't you see, both Annie and OP believe Maharaji IS the superior power in person. They won't say it out loud, but they don't deny that M claims it as well. It's the typical dilemma of premies (and of Maharaji). They really believe that M is an omniscient being, with great powers, in fact the incarnation of god, but they won't say that because they know it sounds insane!!!! JW You know, Bill, Jim, Mr Ex, etc., you seem intelligent, but the undercurrent of your attitude is the same old superstition, and prejudice from the Dark Ages. 'How could this tan Oriental possibly know something about God that I don't know?' Yours is the Bible Belt Christian fundamentalist mentality that drove Mike Chapman to shoot Lennon, and that still inspires the Ku Klux Klan meetings and cross burnings. Have you ever thought about what your real motives and prejudice might be as you wage this crusade against personal experience, freedom of thought and perception and belief? What other arguments have you basically presented here other than an irrational 'Maharaji is a bogeyman' scare? Look up xenophobia in a dictionary. If I believe that Maharaji is the superior power in person, it's none of your business. I thought America was the land of religious freedom and not of religious persecution. 'Yet religion remains essentially private knowledge if we consider where the most significant testing of religious evidence takes place. Who is it that ends up convinced, or not convinced, by the evidence? However we might try to answer that question, from history or from contemporary religion, whatever some might insist the answer ought to be - who should have the last word - and regardless of the way some of us try to influence one another, we can't avoid the conclusion that human decisions about whether to believe there is a God - and, if so, what sort of God - are private decisions, not a concensus.' - The Fire in the Equations by Kitty Ferguson, pp.244
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Date: Thurs, Dec 25, 1997 at 19:16:34 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: A
Subject: Re: speak for yourself, only. (Re: A Sense of Balance)
Message:
Joe, you do not know me, nor what I think, nor what I believe, and I do not presume to speak for you; so don't write things that someone who has not compromised their intelligence would not write. I said what I think you believe, which I have every right to do. Do you deny that you believe M is the superior power in person and the incarnation of god?
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Date: Thurs, Dec 25, 1997 at 21:01:43 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: Mili
Subject: Re: He is the fake lord and you cover it up (Re: A Sense of Balance)
Message:
You said 'to become a student of life itself, the omnipresent teacher' prem rawat very clearly makes the claim that the omnipresent teacher is the master, is himself. He blatently presents himself as the superiour power in person and the one to whom love and the devotion that should or could go to god go to him and to serve him and to experience the knowledge fully you will have to have this imaginary connection to him. Do you deny that he has repeatedly and consistantly done this up to and includeing the recent program in LA? You ignore this issue like it is the imagination of some losers. Sorry, but you are not being honest here. You are tiptoeing around and poo pooing the notion that he is peresenting himself as the lord. this is inaccurate and I can easily prove it. but don't you already know it? Bill, don't you see, both Annie and OP believe Maharaji IS the superior power in person. They won't say it out loud, but they don't deny that M claims it as well. It's the typical dilemma of premies (and of Maharaji). They really believe that M is an omniscient being, with great powers, in fact the incarnation of god, but they won't say that because they know it sounds insane!!!! JW You know, Bill, Jim, Mr Ex, etc., you seem intelligent, but the undercurrent of your attitude is the same old superstition, and prejudice from the Dark Ages. 'How could this tan Oriental possibly know something about God that I don't know?' Yours is the Bible Belt Christian fundamentalist mentality that drove Mike Chapman to shoot Lennon, and that still inspires the Ku Klux Klan meetings and cross burnings. Have you ever thought about what your real motives and prejudice might be as you wage this crusade against personal experience, freedom of thought and perception and belief? What other arguments have you basically presented here other than an irrational 'Maharaji is a bogeyman' scare? Look up xenophobia in a dictionary. If I believe that Maharaji is the superior power in person, it's none of your business. I thought America was the land of religious freedom and not of religious persecution. 'Yet religion remains essentially private knowledge if we consider where the most significant testing of religious evidence takes place. Who is it that ends up convinced, or not convinced, by the evidence? However we might try to answer that question, from history or from contemporary religion, whatever some might insist the answer ought to be - who should have the last word - and regardless of the way some of us try to influence one another, we can't avoid the conclusion that human decisions about whether to believe there is a God - and, if so, what sort of God - are private decisions, not a concensus.' - The Fire in the Equations by Kitty Ferguson, pp.244 Mili, You, unfortunately, don't seem that intelligent. For one thing, you keep suggesting that it's possible M's no fraud. Sure, Mili, for once and for all, it's possible. But what about the other possibilities? What about the probabilities? You said something interesting somewhere around here the last day or so. You said that you really haven't had much to do with M for the last ten years. Did I get that right? He gave you the meditation techniques and you basically went your own way, right? Mili, if that's the case, you don't have the slightest clue about what any of us who invested a world more than you did are talking about. And, dear brother, it shows. As for your blather above, typical. Typical Mili. Stupid, unfocused garbage with an irrelevant high-gloss quote that offers nothing. Mili, if M really does "know something about God" that I don't, why is he afraid to talk about it? You know -- a little dialogue. Think about it. .... Naw, don't bother.
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Date: Fri, Dec 26, 1997 at 02:47:56 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Jim
Subject: Re: He is the fake lord and you cover it up (Re: A Sense of Balance)
Message:
You said 'to become a student of life itself, the omnipresent teacher' prem rawat very clearly makes the claim that the omnipresent teacher is the master, is himself. He blatently presents himself as the superiour power in person and the one to whom love and the devotion that should or could go to god go to him and to serve him and to experience the knowledge fully you will have to have this imaginary connection to him. Do you deny that he has repeatedly and consistantly done this up to and includeing the recent program in LA? You ignore this issue like it is the imagination of some losers. Sorry, but you are not being honest here. You are tiptoeing around and poo pooing the notion that he is peresenting himself as the lord. this is inaccurate and I can easily prove it. but don't you already know it? Bill, don't you see, both Annie and OP believe Maharaji IS the superior power in person. They won't say it out loud, but they don't deny that M claims it as well. It's the typical dilemma of premies (and of Maharaji). They really believe that M is an omniscient being, with great powers, in fact the incarnation of god, but they won't say that because they know it sounds insane!!!! JW You know, Bill, Jim, Mr Ex, etc., you seem intelligent, but the undercurrent of your attitude is the same old superstition, and prejudice from the Dark Ages. 'How could this tan Oriental possibly know something about God that I don't know?' Yours is the Bible Belt Christian fundamentalist mentality that drove Mike Chapman to shoot Lennon, and that still inspires the Ku Klux Klan meetings and cross burnings. Have you ever thought about what your real motives and prejudice might be as you wage this crusade against personal experience, freedom of thought and perception and belief? What other arguments have you basically presented here other than an irrational 'Maharaji is a bogeyman' scare? Look up xenophobia in a dictionary. If I believe that Maharaji is the superior power in person, it's none of your business. I thought America was the land of religious freedom and not of religious persecution. 'Yet religion remains essentially private knowledge if we consider where the most significant testing of religious evidence takes place. Who is it that ends up convinced, or not convinced, by the evidence? However we might try to answer that question, from history or from contemporary religion, whatever some might insist the answer ought to be - who should have the last word - and regardless of the way some of us try to influence one another, we can't avoid the conclusion that human decisions about whether to believe there is a God - and, if so, what sort of God - are private decisions, not a concensus.' - The Fire in the Equations by Kitty Ferguson, pp.244 Mili, You, unfortunately, don't seem that intelligent. For one thing, you keep suggesting that it's possible M's no fraud. Sure, Mili, for once and for all, it's possible. But what about the other possibilities? What about the probabilities? You said something interesting somewhere around here the last day or so. You said that you really haven't had much to do with M for the last ten years. Did I get that right? He gave you the meditation techniques and you basically went your own way, right? Mili, if that's the case, you don't have the slightest clue about what any of us who invested a world more than you did are talking about. And, dear brother, it shows. As for your blather above, typical. Typical Mili. Stupid, unfocused garbage with an irrelevant high-gloss quote that offers nothing. Mili, if M really does 'know something about God' that I don't, why is he afraid to talk about it? You know -- a little dialogue. Think about it. .... Naw, don't bother. Yeah, Jim, I more or less went my way about ten years ago, 'Go back where you came from, and see what the Knowledge means to you.' When did you split? In the 1970's , right? So, you see, you are lying - I was around for a longer time than you were, and I know what this is all about much better than you. You know, I can walk in and out of this internet Palace of Hate anytime. But for you it's the purpose of your life. You are just caught in the pit you dug yourself. You dig the pit for Maharaji, and now you can't get out of it anymore. By the way, Yves Pageau wrote you a nice letter some time ago - I think you missed it. Your intolerance for other people's views and feelings is apparent even to a casual onlooker. How can you be such a creep?
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Date: Fri, Dec 26, 1997 at 03:15:42 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Jim
Subject: Re: He is the fake lord and you cover it up (Re: A Sense of Balance)
Message:
You, unfortunately, don't seem that intelligent. For one thing, you keep suggesting that it's possible M's no fraud. Sure, Mili, for once and for all, it's possible. But what about the other possibilities? What about the probabilities? ... Think about it. .... Naw, don't bother. The test of a Perfect Master is the Knowledge that he gives. The Knowledge worked for me. - Mili
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Date: Fri, Dec 26, 1997 at 08:27:42 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Jim
Subject: Re: He is the fake lord and you cover it up (Re: A Sense of Balance)
Message:
You said 'to become a student of life itself, the omnipresent teacher' prem rawat very clearly makes the claim that the omnipresent teacher is the master, is himself. He blatently presents himself as the superiour power in person and the one to whom love and the devotion that should or could go to god go to him and to serve him and to experience the knowledge fully you will have to have this imaginary connection to him. Do you deny that he has repeatedly and consistantly done this up to and includeing the recent program in LA? You ignore this issue like it is the imagination of some losers. Sorry, but you are not being honest here. You are tiptoeing around and poo pooing the notion that he is peresenting himself as the lord. this is inaccurate and I can easily prove it. but don't you already know it? Bill, don't you see, both Annie and OP believe Maharaji IS the superior power in person. They won't say it out loud, but they don't deny that M claims it as well. It's the typical dilemma of premies (and of Maharaji). They really believe that M is an omniscient being, with great powers, in fact the incarnation of god, but they won't say that because they know it sounds insane!!!! JW You know, Bill, Jim, Mr Ex, etc., you seem intelligent, but the undercurrent of your attitude is the same old superstition, and prejudice from the Dark Ages. 'How could this tan Oriental possibly know something about God that I don't know?' Yours is the Bible Belt Christian fundamentalist mentality that drove Mike Chapman to shoot Lennon, and that still inspires the Ku Klux Klan meetings and cross burnings. Have you ever thought about what your real motives and prejudice might be as you wage this crusade against personal experience, freedom of thought and perception and belief? What other arguments have you basically presented here other than an irrational 'Maharaji is a bogeyman' scare? Look up xenophobia in a dictionary. If I believe that Maharaji is the superior power in person, it's none of your business. I thought America was the land of religious freedom and not of religious persecution. 'Yet religion remains essentially private knowledge if we consider where the most significant testing of religious evidence takes place. Who is it that ends up convinced, or not convinced, by the evidence? However we might try to answer that question, from history or from contemporary religion, whatever some might insist the answer ought to be - who should have the last word - and regardless of the way some of us try to influence one another, we can't avoid the conclusion that human decisions about whether to believe there is a God - and, if so, what sort of God - are private decisions, not a concensus.' - The Fire in the Equations by Kitty Ferguson, pp.244 Mili, You, unfortunately, don't seem that intelligent. For one thing, you keep suggesting that it's possible M's no fraud. Sure, Mili, for once and for all, it's possible. But what about the other possibilities? What about the probabilities? You said something interesting somewhere around here the last day or so. You said that you really haven't had much to do with M for the last ten years. Did I get that right? He gave you the meditation techniques and you basically went your own way, right? Mili, if that's the case, you don't have the slightest clue about what any of us who invested a world more than you did are talking about. And, dear brother, it shows. As for your blather above, typical. Typical Mili. Stupid, unfocused garbage with an irrelevant high-gloss quote that offers nothing. Mili, if M really does 'know something about God' that I don't, why is he afraid to talk about it? You know -- a little dialogue. Think about it. .... Naw, don't bother. Jim, I can imagine what that dialogue would probably look like: M: 'Jim, I have shown you the techniques, and told you that if you tried meditating, you would understand what the God I talk about is like. It is the energy that is keeping you alive, and it can be seen, heard and felt in its pure form.' Jim: 'Well, M, I tried your meditation for 8 years, and I didn't get anything out of it. Are you bamboozling me, or what?' M: 'Jim, if you it tried for eight years, and you didn't get anything out of it - stop wasting your time, and mine, and forget about it. Try it in the next lifetime, maybe.'
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Date: Fri, Dec 26, 1997 at 14:03:23 (EST)
Poster: Current Premie
Email:
To: everyone
Subject: Re: He is the fake lord and you cover it up (Re: A Sense of Balance)
Message:
I've been reading mail in this forum for two days now and have mostly practiced daily for about 25 yrs. All I can conclude is that I feel fortunate that I was a married householder and never moved into the ashram craziness. Several of my former and current friends did and some of them are very bitter, while others continue to enjoy Knowledge. All however needed to go through a recovery period from the ashram life. Seems Maharaji did the right thing to close them down. I don't mean to imply that your negative ( or should I say insane?) experiences werre strictly due to the ashram. This whole area of inner experience is individual and I do not feel bamboozled by Maharaji at all. It is a two way street, just as so many other things in my life.
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Date: Fri, Dec 26, 1997 at 20:20:53 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: Mili
Subject: Re: He is the fake lord and you cover it up (Re: A Sense of Balance)
Message:
You said 'to become a student of life itself, the omnipresent teacher' prem rawat very clearly makes the claim that the omnipresent teacher is the master, is himself. He blatently presents himself as the superiour power in person and the one to whom love and the devotion that should or could go to god go to him and to serve him and to experience the knowledge fully you will have to have this imaginary connection to him. Do you deny that he has repeatedly and consistantly done this up to and includeing the recent program in LA? You ignore this issue like it is the imagination of some losers. Sorry, but you are not being honest here. You are tiptoeing around and poo pooing the notion that he is peresenting himself as the lord. this is inaccurate and I can easily prove it. but don't you already know it? Bill, don't you see, both Annie and OP believe Maharaji IS the superior power in person. They won't say it out loud, but they don't deny that M claims it as well. It's the typical dilemma of premies (and of Maharaji). They really believe that M is an omniscient being, with great powers, in fact the incarnation of god, but they won't say that because they know it sounds insane!!!! JW You know, Bill, Jim, Mr Ex, etc., you seem intelligent, but the undercurrent of your attitude is the same old superstition, and prejudice from the Dark Ages. 'How could this tan Oriental possibly know something about God that I don't know?' Yours is the Bible Belt Christian fundamentalist mentality that drove Mike Chapman to shoot Lennon, and that still inspires the Ku Klux Klan meetings and cross burnings. Have you ever thought about what your real motives and prejudice might be as you wage this crusade against personal experience, freedom of thought and perception and belief? What other arguments have you basically presented here other than an irrational 'Maharaji is a bogeyman' scare? Look up xenophobia in a dictionary. If I believe that Maharaji is the superior power in person, it's none of your business. I thought America was the land of religious freedom and not of religious persecution. 'Yet religion remains essentially private knowledge if we consider where the most significant testing of religious evidence takes place. Who is it that ends up convinced, or not convinced, by the evidence? However we might try to answer that question, from history or from contemporary religion, whatever some might insist the answer ought to be - who should have the last word - and regardless of the way some of us try to influence one another, we can't avoid the conclusion that human decisions about whether to believe there is a God - and, if so, what sort of God - are private decisions, not a concensus.' - The Fire in the Equations by Kitty Ferguson, pp.244 Mili, You, unfortunately, don't seem that intelligent. For one thing, you keep suggesting that it's possible M's no fraud. Sure, Mili, for once and for all, it's possible. But what about the other possibilities? What about the probabilities? You said something interesting somewhere around here the last day or so. You said that you really haven't had much to do with M for the last ten years. Did I get that right? He gave you the meditation techniques and you basically went your own way, right? Mili, if that's the case, you don't have the slightest clue about what any of us who invested a world more than you did are talking about. And, dear brother, it shows. As for your blather above, typical. Typical Mili. Stupid, unfocused garbage with an irrelevant high-gloss quote that offers nothing. Mili, if M really does 'know something about God' that I don't, why is he afraid to talk about it? You know -- a little dialogue. Think about it. .... Naw, don't bother. Yeah, Jim, I more or less went my way about ten years ago, 'Go back where you came from, and see what the Knowledge means to you.' When did you split? In the 1970's , right? So, you see, you are lying - I was around for a longer time than you were, and I know what this is all about much better than you. You know, I can walk in and out of this internet Palace of Hate anytime. But for you it's the purpose of your life. You are just caught in the pit you dug yourself. You dig the pit for Maharaji, and now you can't get out of it anymore. By the way, Yves Pageau wrote you a nice letter some time ago - I think you missed it. Your intolerance for other people's views and feelings is apparent even to a casual onlooker. How can you be such a creep? Mili, I left in 81. The point, though, is that you just simply weren't there. I was. Nah nah nah nah nah! I DID read Yves' letter. So? He thinks I force my opinion on people or something like that? That's his opinion. I don't agree. Big deal. (By the way -- if you're reading this, Yves, I don't recall that you even played music back then. Thanks for the insult anyways.)
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Date: Fri, Dec 26, 1997 at 20:47:34 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: Current Premie
Subject: Re: He is the fake lord and you cover it up (Re: A Sense of Balance)
Message:
I've been reading mail in this forum for two days now and have mostly practiced daily for about 25 yrs. All I can conclude is that I feel fortunate that I was a married householder and never moved into the ashram craziness. Several of my former and current friends did and some of them are very bitter, while others continue to enjoy Knowledge. All however needed to go through a recovery period from the ashram life. Seems Maharaji did the right thing to close them down. I don't mean to imply that your negative ( or should I say insane?) experiences werre strictly due to the ashram. This whole area of inner experience is individual and I do not feel bamboozled by Maharaji at all. It is a two way street, just as so many other things in my life. Join the ranks of Maharaji apologists, dear current premie. Remember to hold Maharaji responsible for nothing, to think as little as a bird and to chirp as if you're actually trying to say something. In the end, it's not the words anyway, so who gives a fuck, right? My suggestion is that you discuss a little -- or discuss why you can't be bothered to -- in equal bits until you figure out what style suits you best. Twisted logic is fun but you've really got to play at it for a while before it comes as easy as OP makes it look. (Mind you, I'm not trying to discourage anyone from pursuing this art. After all, practise does make perfect and, as OP herself proves, if you pull and prod your mind long enough it will start to stretch like warm taffy.) On the other hand, you might prefer feigning being a simpleton. Chris, if you're reading this am I right to assume you'll help this guy or girl out if they get stuck? Current premie, you don't have to worry about any other skills, education or credentials you might have which would undermine your role. The more you wave them about the more it seems to help somehow. We all know it's just a play anyway. After all, NO ONE can really be as clueless as Chris makes out. Further pluses include a certain 'rain man'-like charm and the right to post short non-sequiters galore. Hey, why not send us a picture of you having fun in a tie? On the other hand, maybe you just want to be a boor. Well, an on-again-off-again boor. Ham-fisted, you know? This role's easy in htat it never varies and, I have to admit, it looks kind of fun. Mili's not the only one but, hey, why not learn from a pro? Here, too, you don't have to worry about any glaring inconsistencies between the role's limitations and your more fully developed mind and responsibilities. It's all just a game. Welcome aboard!
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Date: Fri, Dec 26, 1997 at 21:18:17 (EST)
Poster: Another Current Premie
Email:
To: Current Premie
Subject: Re: He is the fake lord and you cover it up (Re: A Sense of Balance)
Message:
I have been reading this forum on and off for a few months. I find it very interesting. I have practiced Knowledge since 1976. My practice of meditation has been on again, off again. I was in the ashram. I chose to move out, and yes, I did have to go through a kind of re-entry recovery period after the ashram. But my experience of Knowledge and Maharaji has always been beautiful. I have never felt forced to do anything. I continue to come and go as I please. I don't give any money and I still get the benefits. I find life to be a wonder and filled with magic. Maharaji has always reflected that back to me.
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Date: Fri, Dec 26, 1997 at 22:35:36 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: Current Premie
Subject: Re: He is the fake lord and you cover it up (Re: A Sense of Balance)
Message:
I've been reading mail in this forum for two days now and have mostly practiced daily for about 25 yrs. All I can conclude is that I feel fortunate that I was a married householder and never moved into the ashram craziness. Several of my former and current friends did and some of them are very bitter, while others continue to enjoy Knowledge. All however needed to go through a recovery period from the ashram life. Seems Maharaji did the right thing to close them down. I don't mean to imply that your negative ( or should I say insane?) experiences werre strictly due to the ashram. This whole area of inner experience is individual and I do not feel bamboozled by Maharaji at all. It is a two way street, just as so many other things in my life. I actually appreciate your "sort of" "half-attempt" to admit that some things went wrong in the Mahraraji kingdom to some people, but, again, you only give M credit for closing the ashrams and no responsibility for setting them up, running them for over a decade, and telling the ashram residents to never move out, no matter how miserable they were, or how many years of their lives were wasted in some institution that he just trashed as some failed experiment years later. In order for you to have SOME credibility, you have to address both sides of the scale, and you clearly haven't. JW
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Date: Fri, Dec 26, 1997 at 22:38:33 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email: joger02@aol.com
To: Another Current Premie
Subject: Re: He is the fake lord and you cover it up (Re: A Sense of Balance)
Message:
I have been reading this forum on and off for a few months. I find it very interesting. I have practiced Knowledge since 1976. My practice of meditation has been on again, off again. I was in the ashram. I chose to move out, and yes, I did have to go through a kind of re-entry recovery period after the ashram. But my experience of Knowledge and Maharaji has always been beautiful. I have never felt forced to do anything. I continue to come and go as I please. I don't give any money and I still get the benefits. I find life to be a wonder and filled with magic. Maharaji has always reflected that back to me. Thanks for your comment. Can you tell me more about your "re-entry period after the ashram?" When was that and what happened? JW
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Date: Sat, Dec 27, 1997 at 23:28:58 (EST)
Poster: A
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: speak for yourself, only. (Re: A Sense of Balance)
Message:
I am sure I don't know. However, it would not surprise me.
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Date: Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 01:54:50 (EST)
Poster: John Cavad
Email:
To: Everyone
Subject: Mental Illness
Message:
Are there signs surfacing of mental illness here? Is M going downhill? That would worry me very much for the fate of his premies may be a repeat of Jonestown. Based on all I've read on these pages, it appears that M's behavior has gone pathological? Is that true? Or are you just angry at him? I don't know, I've been gone 14 years (living in "my mind" and loving it).
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Date: Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 04:54:27 (EST)
Poster: Mr Ex
Email:
To: John Cavad
Subject: Re: Mental Illness
Message:
It would be nice to have some professional psychoplogist advice regarding Mr PPR’s sanity. I’ve red quite few things about that type of guru. Psychologists say they are in some kind of ‘pre-psychotic’ syndrom. They also say that it’s possible to make some predictions over their future behaviors and symptoms. Very likely something close to their own ‘idols’ behavior : in Mr Rawat’s case, Mirabai, Kabir, his master and those of his (well hidden) lineage Tulsidas, etc .... Looks not so harmful. But you never really know for sure.
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Date: Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 13:08:16 (EST)
Poster: A
Email: aerily@aol.com
To: Mr Ex
Subject: Re: Mental Illness
Message:
I am much more concerned about Jim's mental health.
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Date: Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 16:46:57 (EST)
Poster: his idols
Email: bb
To: Mr Ex
Subject: Re: Mental Illness
Message:
chrisr x-man, rawats idols are not mira bai kabir or any other devotee type. His idol would be himself and his father. he was totally into the I am makeing my own reality thing hindus love, I am god and thats that. I will be god with a vengence and you better jump for me or you will never experience the knowledge, you will go to hell, you will displease the real lord and as he puts it,' the challenge of a living master.' meaning his selfish arrogant ect. ect. You are way off the mark by associating him with people that had no pretense or deceit.
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Date: Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 20:41:03 (EST)
Poster: op
Email:
To: John Cavad
Subject: Re: Mental Illness
Message:
Are there signs surfacing of mental illness here? Is M going downhill? That would worry me very much for the fate of his premies may be a repeat of Jonestown. Based on all I've read on these pages, it appears that M's behavior has gone pathological? Is that true? Or are you just angry at him? I don't know, I've been gone 14 years (living in 'my mind' and loving it). Dear John: This is the danger of this kind of forum - you haven't been to a program in 14 years, so this all has the ring of some distant esoteric activity. Actually, I was just thinking, reading the thread below, that anyone walking into a program - whether with M or a video event, would immediately wonder what all the ruckus on this forum was about. The people are an eclectic bunch - racially, ethnically, financially, etc. Most are open, friendly. I don't think you could find glazed eyes unless someone smoked a joint before coming to the event. You know, 'normal' people. And when you see M, there are no signs of physical deterioration. In fact, in the past 6 months he has lost quite a few pounds (I wouldn't venture to guess how many, but he's been on a special diet). His eyes are sometimes puffy, if he's been on a long flight and got little sleep, but where JW has said his eyes are 'just slits' - one can simply see that their shape has an oriental slant. He talks about a lot of things, and sometimes includes some jokes that in the 70s would have raised a few eyebrows. He usually speaks for about an hour, unhesitatingly (although he is careful to use clear diction, and sometimes to repeat a phrase using slightly different wording so that the translators can have a choice of terminology). Transcripts, such as some choice excerpts that have been printed here, don't really give a good view of how he says things, because his emphasis and tone cannot obviously not be replicated that way. Pathological? I guess there are some who would say that I am, so what's the sense in trying to say anything? I could defend myself by stating my credentials in the 'world' - which are certainly good enough. As for Jonestown and such other situations - my heart goes out still to the families and to the victims. But no chance of that sort of thing - M's view of life, appreciation of life, joie de vivre - is key. He CELEBRATES life, in every aspect - even while reminding us and accepting the fact that the act of living on this planet is not eternal - for him or for us. His emphasis is on taking advantage of life while we are living it - to find the treasure that IS life, and to flow with it. Certainly not to destroy it.
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Date: Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 22:49:21 (EST)
Poster: what about the
Email: bb
To: op
Subject: songs! (Re: Mental Illness)
Message:
what about the songs op? wont anyone face up to the obvious truth that he is presenting himself still as the god figure on earth that we are supposed to adore. That the very clear indications are that he is the one that hears your prayers and knows all about you and has somehow got to pretend that he is just a human with human qualities but really he is still god incarmate. What about the god damn songs? The ones at LA?
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Date: Wed, Dec 24, 1997 at 00:10:11 (EST)
Poster: CD
Email:
To: John Cavad
Subject: Re: Mental Illness
Message:
According to my observation M is still promoting the experience of inner peace, the same as he has done for the last 25 years. He speaks quite well and is able to deliver effective jokes in front of a large audience. Those studying up on public speaking will know that speaking at a measured pace and repitition are effective techniques for getting a difficult point across to a diverse audience. He does utilize these skills well. Next year he will undertake more travel and attend several events in various places in the world. I hope to be able to enjoy a few of those events. I went to the December 97 Long Beach event and have no regrets whatsoever. The event was a happy, memorable success for me and my girlfriend. I wish Maharaji safe travels and joy in the upcoming New Year! Happy holidays and best wishes to you too! CD
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Date: Wed, Dec 24, 1997 at 00:36:29 (EST)
Poster: CD
Email:
To: Billy Bong
Subject: Re: songs! (Re: Mental Illness)
Message:
Voices singing love. Pleasant music too. Joy that's felt and simple. Not good enough for you? CD
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Date: Wed, Dec 24, 1997 at 01:14:49 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: what about the
Subject: Re: songs! (Re: Mental Illness)
Message:
what about the songs op? wont anyone face up to the obvious truth that he is presenting himself still as the god figure on earth that we are supposed to adore. That the very clear indications are that he is the one that hears your prayers and knows all about you and has somehow got to pretend that he is just a human with human qualities but really he is still god incarmate. What about the god damn songs? The ones at LA? Someone just faxed me a copy of the words to the songs on the new CD sold at the LA program. Devotional love songs all directed at worshipping a god-like being. I know what you are saying, Bill. In fact, I think most of the songs were around 20 years ago when the fact that M was god was not hidden by him or any of us either. JW
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Date: Wed, Dec 24, 1997 at 16:47:15 (EST)
Poster: action
Email: BB
To: CD
Subject: reaction (Re: Mental Illness)
Message:
WELL, YES, if he wasn't doing the I am thing at big volume, he would be f i n e fine. If you just want to let that point slide then fine too, enjoy what part you can but the effect of the I AM thing is a bunch of ticked howling ex participants You are on assignment here. you must be. you are too out front with your name (?) and you do security right? and surely your involvement has been noted and some communication from somebody has come to you. if so fine but why not see what the real fuss is about and try to feedback to the mission you love what the consumer reaction is to the continued i am god stance. but he wont drop it for a couple reasons so this increasing opposition will only become way more of an obstacle. action/reaction stop action/reaction will gradually stop just the way it is. with all his safety conciousness he should see what the safe route is. If he sees turbulance he avoids it by taking action. Well dark clouds are in the formative stages and his latest strategy of amping up the devotion might be good for income maintenence, and his dream of continued and increasing divine royalty, but there is a hurricane with an eye already formed. He might be becomeing more personally benign and mellow, and like the rest of us, more and more accustomed to our lives, but the spreading of a fantasy that he is the lord come to spread this knowledge is unfair to the simple people who are lured into that vision by his long crafted pretense. It just is not being responsible to watch it and shrug shoulders and go 'oh what the hell, it's not so bad for ME' talk me out of that if you want i will listen
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Date: Wed, Dec 24, 1997 at 22:01:03 (EST)
Poster: CD
Email:
To: what about the
Subject: Re: songs! (Re: Mental Illness)
Message:
Bill,

WHO SAYS PREMIES DON'T HAVE FUN?
See Me


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Date: Fri, Dec 26, 1997 at 03:31:48 (EST)
Poster: John C
Email:
To: CD
Subject: Re: Mental Illness
Message:
I'm proud to say that GMJ has taught me almost everything I know about public speaking.
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Date: Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 00:33:17 (EST)
Poster: to war?or something
Email: bb
To: Everyone
Subject: else. calling mr. ex
Message:
Greetings mr ex I have had my run in with anger and war style thinking, but today I was thinking in a different way. It's better to take some time out to cool down and get a fresh take on things rather than run off to war and feel the 'pleasures of war' and the rightious feeling of revenge. Acting out of anger has not been highly reccommended and a time of weighing the consequences of actions is suggested. In high international negotiating circles they try a few times to identify what really is the goal you are after. I don't mean the goal in life or that subject, but what about articulating a position and a statement of what is being objected to by those here, and what type of change you would like to see out of m and sending it to him and stateing your possible actions and giving some amount of time to address and respond to the war you want to start. Before using your insider info to destruct the show first. Don't fergit the reality of those that are not going to be able to quickly see things differently. Plus, what if he gets the money to survive whatever happens, then nothing changes, but maybe communicating first might cause him to grapple with the ideas of those who see the flaws. I am not sure why, but at this point it makes me a little uneasy to hear about your friends and your intent to destruct the show right now. Everywhere I look people are caught up in some ridiculous illusion. Pledging alliegance to every single thing imaginable. It's a bit shocking I have a vast archive and memory on this subject, but I have till lately been reluctant to dig around in it. I want the dust to settle first and see what course I see to take. Are you and your friends clearly seeing the consequences of the actions they are makeing? In some ways, sure. maybe this is the part of me that annie calls the 'fearful, not thinking for yourself' part of me. But I feel caution before breaking out the matches and the dynamite.
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Date: Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 00:47:03 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: to war?or something
Subject: Re: else. calling mr. ex
Message:
How is telling the truth anything other than a good thing? How is shattering illusion anything but a good thing? Those that would be hurt the most have the mechanisms to rationalize, repress and just refuse to see it. They won't get hurt. Mahraji will likely repress and rationalize it as well. But SOME people are ready to hear it and will benefit greatly. And SOME people might avoid getting involved in something that we have found out is pretty destructive. That's good too. Anger is not a bad thing and is often justified. It's a very healthy emotion, coming from having been used and abused. It's a declaration of independence. The chance to be a vital adult. And acting on anger in a constructive way is a key to mental and spiritual health. I say, more power to you, Mr. Ex. I know it's not easy. But I think you're on the right track.
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Date: Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 00:50:06 (EST)
Poster: Ms. Katie
Email:
To: Bill
Subject: To war? calling mr. bill (Re: else. calling mr. ex)
Message:
Bill, here is another quote from that trancenet.org site that pertains to what you are talking about above. (It's also written by John Knapp and Pam Fitzpatrick): Why do people leave? How do people leave? Members typically: 1.walkaway ("walkaways"), 2.are thrown out ("castaways"), 3.lose their leader to death or their group to dissolution, 4.or are counseled out -- in roughly that numerical order. Walkaways may leave gradually because of love for family or friends or what is called "cognitive dissonance" -- a growing realization that the ideals of the group are at odds with their actions. They may float into new groups or eventually return to their original group. Frequently they do not face the damage that they have endured, and they experience reduced functionality for many, many years. Castaways are tossed out by their leaders or groups for real or imagined offenses -- or to keep other members in line. This group may experience the most traumatic reentrance into mainstream society. They usually have not rejected the beliefs or leader of their group and have the added guilt and shame of having been rejected. Someone involved in the disbandment of their group may experience an ego-strengthening sense of power and control. If the group disbanded against their wishes or their leader died, they may experience a depth of despair similar to a castaway. Those who are counseled out, through therapy, exit counseling, in-residence programs, or the like, usually experience the smoothest and quickest recovery.
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Date: Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 01:04:04 (EST)
Poster: howdy Jw
Email: bb
To: JW
Subject: Re: else. calling mr. ex
Message:
I guess that's why I read you for some regular folks type viewpoint. I am definately unable to do as big an about face as war requires. you have been away for 10 years. I dont have that perspective. I am way to recent to take such a dramatic step as the mole men are embarking on
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Date: Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 01:18:58 (EST)
Poster: kathryn
Email: bb
To: Ms. Katie
Subject: the quick (Re: else. calling mr. ex)
Message:
I guess it's just going to be some form of messy back and forth for me. Speaking on the forum is one thing but direct action is definately beyond my capacity at this point. Maharaji has definately thrown out some castaways. His father too. In fact in the early 90's he dumped a big group of long time indian mahatmas out the side door of the dehli ashram during a 3 day event and told them to take a hike. some stuck around and he let them back in. This after dedicating many many years of thier life. I will have to rehear that story to get the details again. Some indian premies ran alongside his car (but not close at all) at the same ashram and he banned them from events for life. Not to mention bahari singh, ect. I guess I have seen and heard enough, but it is too unbelievable to grapple with the apparent facts that the god doesn't give two hoots about this effort of his and I don't need to feel obliged anymore.
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Date: Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 05:49:42 (EST)
Poster: Mr Ex
Email:
To: JW & Katie at war ....
Subject: Re: else. calling mr. ex
Message:
I would say that the war has already started. I don’t mean doing anything else beside saying openly what I think of this deceitful guru and giving any information I own that could help others. I say this is an attack, because I know it’s a shock for him and PAM seeing that people like you and me and others dare say what we say and publish the kind of documents that is available on the web-site. I know it because I’ve been part of so many meetings where this issue has been the main point. PR issues etc. When I used to ‘love’ Maharaji (it’s such a shame now for me to even write this) whatever I could have read here, or whatever I said recently to some premies I know would have shocked me deeply and made me feel that me and Maharaji were attacked. That’s why some premies here desperately try to protect him, and give us ‘satsang’. The very fact that this forum and that the ex-premie.org web-site exist is an attack for them. The very fact that they don’t trust Maharaji 100% is the reason why they participate in spite of his ‘advice’ not to do so. Beside saying openly what we say, I don’t see what we could do. Maybe lawsuits. I hope that those people who have been harmed and that have legal reasons to sue Mr PPR or Elan Vital will do so. That’s not my case. I know 2 women who have been raped by his instructors. They might sue them one day, I hope so anyway. There are other case like these very likely, and I hope these people will be courageous enough to undertake legal actions I know some people already did. I don’t have details. That could be very interesting and helpful for others. I also know that some people claimed their money back, and got it ! In respect to what you and Katie said, I feel much better since that anger feeling appeared in me. What was very surprising for me is that lots of others feelings (‘regular’ human feelings) that I lost because of my involvement in the cult, surfaced exactly when this rejection (hate/anger) feeling appeared. Part of the healing process I guess.
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Date: Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 08:47:39 (EST)
Poster: have you heard
Email: bb
To: Mr Ex
Subject: the festival songs? (Re: else. calling mr. ex)
Message:
have you heard the songs that are on the new tape? I will post them. how long did it take to finally accept that what youknew is what you knew? He definately is going all out for the see me as lord type of belief. Granted there are old clunkers like myself who were still around stuck in that old 70's orientation, and surely the important thing to him is how do the big donors view him. If they view him as lord then certainly that would help keep him doing that. To raise that amount of money and keep people quiet about his rages and other things you would have to be the god messiah. I only have to look at his track record with me and other guys around him to see the reality. And of course his own words. his pretending is poisonous. This is why the breath is hidden throughout history, a madman gets ahold of it and it gives his madness a certain validity. This is the type of demon ram fought. This is the type of guy I fight.
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Date: Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 09:12:26 (EST)
Poster: Kathryn
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: William
Subject: direct action (Re: else. calling mr. ex)
Message:
Bill - I just put that quote on so you could understand a little bit. I don't think you are in some messy back and forth. I think it just takes a while. When did you leave? You seem to be faster than the rest of us in confronting this stuff and going through the grieving process, and you seem to be doing a lot of it in public. I see your efforts to try and warn the premies on here. I'm not sure what happened to disillusion you, but it must have been very painful. I know you're trying to save others this same pain. But it seems like nothing that anyone has said on here has bothered the premies very much. Or no one has said so anyway. Just keep doing what you're doing. It's important and I appreciate it very much (except maybe for some of the Archie Bunker parts...but you know Edith loves Archie...). I think other people on here do too.
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Date: Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 10:16:21 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: howdy Jw
Subject: Re: else. calling mr. ex
Message:
I guess that's why I read you for some regular folks type viewpoint. I am definately unable to do as big an about face as war requires. you have been away for 10 years. I dont have that perspective. I am way to recent to take such a dramatic step as the mole men are embarking on Bill, in my experience it really does take time to repair the damage and you have to give yourself all the breaks and all the time you need. You have been through a horrendous thing that happens to very few people. For me, I had to just take it one step at a time, and it really does get better. But talking about it and letting out your feelings, for me at least, REALLY helps. JW
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Date: Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 10:55:12 (EST)
Poster: Mr Ex
Email:
To: to war?or something
Subject: Re: else. calling mr. ex
Message:
Thank you for this post. It’s very helpful for me. >I have had my run in with anger and war style >thinking, but today I was thinking in a different way. >It's better to take some time out to cool >down and get a fresh take on things rather than >run off to war and feel the 'pleasures of war' >and the rightious feeling of revenge. I’m not really into a war. Nor do I want to start any. Expressing what I’ve expressed is one of the ways I have to express my anger, my grieve, my sadness and all these feelings. >Acting out of anger has not been highly >reccommended and a time of weighing the >consequences of actions is suggested. About consequences : do you think that Mr Lotus-feet security mercenaries are likely to physically threaten me ? Do you think they are after me ? Do you think that Mr Lotus-feet is likely to undertake any action against the persons in charge of this web-site ? Do you recall anything like that happened in the past ? David, do you feel threatened ? Did you receive any threatening email ? If so, would you post them or show them on your web-site ? Do you think that he could initiate something like these group suicides ? He has never been into that, nor did any of these gurus of the Radhasoami tradition. >In high international negotiating circles >they try a few times to identify what really >is the goal you are after. >I don't mean the goal in life or that subject, >but what about articulating a position >and a statement of what is being objected to by >those here, and what type of change you would like >to see out of m and sending it to him and >stateing your possible actions and giving some >amount of time to address and respond to >the war you want to start. >Before using your insider info to destruct the >show first. >Don't fergit the reality of those that are not >going to be able to quickly see things differently. >Plus, what if he gets the money to survive >whatever happens, then nothing changes, but maybe >communicating first might cause him to >grapple with the ideas of those who see the flaws. I definitely think that my responsibility is to communicate whatever information I have that could be useful and helpful to others. Exactly like reading the transcript of Mishler’s interview helped me a lot as well as these ex-premies ‘journeys’. These have been very helpful for me and for others to whom I gave copies of these documents. I did communicate most of what I know. There are plenty of details here and there that could be helpful to substantiate my stories, but I draw the main picture as it appears to me. I don’t know if there is anything wrong in helping others this way : I’d rather think it’s a normal human behavior. Of course there are those premies who think I’m totally wrong : I don’t intend to discuss this with them, nor do I think I could convince them they are wrong. This is not the issue. We are not the first one saying and expressing what we think about what PPR does. Lots of premies who have been close to him for a long time did, even talked to him about it : as far as I know, he never changed anything in his behavior. Most of them simply left. He just thinks that we are one of those thorns in his foot, or one of these pebbles in his shoe. That’s all. He never really cared for human beings, except maybe for his family from time to time. What’s new is this Internet tool. That’s the danger for Mr Lotus-feet. He is not that stupid, I assume he understands perfectly. In other times he had information’s monopoly. This time is over. He could completely control his ‘knowledge’s’ environment. This time is over. His guru-show-business does not work without proper environment control. He knows this perfectly. He spends most of his time controlling environment. That’s why I think he has a very big problem. Not with me or with you in particular. I discussed this matter a lot with some friends and a lawyer : Lets assume that Mr Lotus-feet is sent to jail for a few years and gets such a huge fine that he loses all his properties, his organizations and even his US citizenship. His fanatics will miss him a lot, but they will survive. A lot of premies will very likely question the whole thing seriously and leave this doubtful cult, like so many others already did. They survived, they will survive, like you and me, and feel much better I assume. This is what happened with Moon, Rajnesh, and some others. He will go back to India after a few years very likely, or any country where he’s going to have some official’s support, who knows. Most of the western countries will lose one charlatan. As it’s obvious that there is no lacking of suckers, some others will take care of these. One can hope that most of these people will be more careful and won’t fall in a similar trap. For Mr Lotus-feet Himself : I’m no great psychologist, but I think that a part of him is so convinced that he is really what he claims to be that he won’t change his mind. Unless he is really honest with himself, and goes in a therapy. Very doubtful option. He might be very depressed and sink in Cognac, or some cheaper wine, even leave his guruship. He mentioned a few time that the Mater does not have to teach : meaning that if he wants to, he could stop teaching. Maybe that’s an exit he is considering. Maybe his fanatics will be granted a darshan in India from time to time, and that will be the end of it. Not too bad for his ego. I would accept that solution (if I was him). I also have 2 friends who have been abused by Mr PPR’s instructors. One of them does not want to undertake anything for the moment, for other reasons. She might one day. The other one is still completely unsure about everything, she is in a therapy, and it’s very difficult for her to face the whole reality. She might one day go into civil action. >I am not sure why, but at this point it makes >me a little uneasy to hear about your friends and >your intent to destruct the show right now. Again I don’t intend to destruct anything (now) ! I don’t have any means to do that. Saying what we say is one thing. Publishing information that could be useful for government to investigate and audit Mr Lotus-feet, his organizations and PAM finances has already been done in various posts. Now what these guys in US IRS, or UK or Switzerland could do (if they want to) is not my business. They won’t be intimidated by Mr Lotus-feet PR notes. They have every mean to know how many millions of $ were ‘given’ to Mr PPR and where they come from. They have every mean to calculate how many millions of $ he cheated, how much taxes he owns etc. No doubt. Of course I’ll be very glad if they take care of this business. >Everywhere I look people are caught up in some >ridiculous illusion. Pledging alliegance to >every single thing imaginable. >It's a bit shocking That’s why I wrote these ‘horrible’ posts. I’ve always been a little bit of an anarchist. >I have a vast archive and memory on this subject, >but I have till lately been reluctant to dig >around in it. >I want the dust to settle first and see what >course I see to take. I understand your point perfectly. >Are you and your friends clearly seeing >the consequences of the actions they are makeing? >In some ways, sure. >maybe this is the part of me >that annie calls the 'fearful, not thinking for >yourself' part of me. >But I feel caution before breaking out the >matches and the dynamite. What do we fear, and where does it come from ? Mr Rawat’s revenge ? His mercenaries ? Eternal doom ? Burning in hell ? Being turned into frogs ? That we could be wrong and that he really is what he claims to be ? The Lord Himself ? What could we do more than say what we say. I don’t intend to demonstrate in front of Elan Vital’s satsang halls ! If journalist want to interview some exs, I might accept to participate. **************** >How is telling the truth anything other than a good thing? >How is shattering illusion anything but a good thing? >Those that would be hurt the most have the mechanisms to rationalize, repress and >just refuse to see it. They won't get hurt. Maharaji will likely repress and rationalize it as >well. >But SOME people are ready to hear it and will benefit greatly. And SOME people >might avoid getting involved in something that we have found out is pretty destructive. >That's good too. >Anger is not a bad thing and is often justified. It's a very healthy emotion, coming from >having been used and abused. It's a declaration of independence. The chance to be a >vital adult. And acting on anger in a constructive way is a key to mental and spiritual >health. >I say, more power to you, Mr. Ex. I know it's not easy. But I think you're on the right >track. Thank you ! You helped me a lot with your posts ! ! I won’t say everything is fantastic for me 24 hours a day, but at least I have a life now. And nothing horrible ever happened to me since I left this ridiculous Lotus-feet cult.
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Date: Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 11:37:14 (EST)
Poster: Q
Email:
To: Mr Ex
Subject: Re: else. calling mr. ex
Message:
It's hardly a war then is it. More a group therapy. I would be willing to bet that there's not one jot of evidence that you could use against Maharaji either in the courts or in the press. To an outsider you simply come across as disgruntled people with a chip on your shoulder. Hardly the sort of people preparing for war. Maharaji did a program recently and the utterences on this forum did forum did not change things one bit. Also you have to understaand that you are giving free publicity to Maharaji. Because you all come across as malcontents, the people who stumble across this page will read between the lines and want to find out more about Maharaji, from his premies. With all great leaders there will be those who will slander them and accuse them of all manner of misdeeds. It goes with the terratory of being a leader. People are not dumb, they realise this and will seek to find out the other angle - why do people exalt this Maharaji fellow? I think that if you want to start a war you first need an army with a purpose. You don't have that here.
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Date: Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 13:16:18 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email: joger02@aol.com
To: Q
Subject: Re: else. calling mr. ex
Message:
To an outsider you simply come across as disgruntled people with a chip on your shoulder. But, then, Mr or Ms Q, you are HARDLY an "outsider" now are you. And you certainly have NO chip on your shoulder, now do you. But to the contrary, I have personally received numerous communications from both "wavering premies" and recent "ex-premies" who say what has been said on this site has helped them very much. I know that's anecdotal, but statistics on this sort of thing are not readily available. JW
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Date: Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 13:57:06 (EST)
Poster: bftb
Email:
To: Q
Subject: Re: else. calling mr. ex
Message:
It's hardly a war then is it. More a group therapy. I would be willing to bet that there's not one jot of evidence that you could use against Maharaji either in the courts or in the press. To an outsider you simply come across as disgruntled people with a chip on your shoulder. Hardly the sort of people preparing for war. Maharaji did a program recently and the utterences on this forum did forum did not change things one bit. Also you have to understaand that you are giving free publicity to Maharaji. Because you all come across as malcontents, the people who stumble across this page will read between the lines and want to find out more about Maharaji, from his premies. With all great leaders there will be those who will slander them and accuse them of all manner of misdeeds. It goes with the terratory of being a leader. People are not dumb, they realise this and will seek to find out the other angle - why do people exalt this Maharaji fellow? I think that if you want to start a war you first need an army with a purpose. You don't have that here. I disagree with you.Don't kid yourself;only to premies do the posters here come across as"disgruntled people with a chip on (their) shoulders". To onlookers they come across as people who are trying to cope with and understand their experience of having been involved in what they feel/know was a manipulating,money making,mind control cult.They believe that Maharaji lied to them when he told them that he was god.Due to M's lying they (at his request)gave up their lives for him.They gave up family/non-family relationships,money,time,....everything. In terms of people stumbling across this site and wanting to find out why M is exalted so:most people will quickly understand that M is exalted for similar reasons as Rev.moon,Osho(late rajneesh),Rael,Hubbard,Maharishi...etc same end,perhaps different means to get there;but most people will see the similarities between the M show and all the others. In terms of statements/claims not standing up in court:There is no way on gods good earth that Maharaji wants to get anywhere near a courtroom for any reason even remotely related to Elan Vital.It has become apparent that the last thing M wants is any publicity of any kind(other then premie word of mouth publicity,which will always tow the company line)so you must understand that any lawsuit that any ex-premie/instructor/whoever would bring would most certainly be settled out of court.Even if the suit were absolutely frivilous and unfounded he would probably settle out of court immediately so as to avoid ANY publicity. That's just my opinion of course but I think it's proven by the fact that (if accurate-as Mr.Ex wrote in one of his posts)premies have actually gotten money back! If that's true what does it tell you?
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Date: Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 15:14:17 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: bftb
Subject: Re: else. calling mr. ex
Message:
It's hardly a war then is it. More a group therapy. I would be willing to bet that there's not one jot of evidence that you could use against Maharaji either in the courts or in the press. To an outsider you simply come across as disgruntled people with a chip on your shoulder. Hardly the sort of people preparing for war. Maharaji did a program recently and the utterences on this forum did forum did not change things one bit. Also you have to understaand that you are giving free publicity to Maharaji. Because you all come across as malcontents, the people who stumble across this page will read between the lines and want to find out more about Maharaji, from his premies. With all great leaders there will be those who will slander them and accuse them of all manner of misdeeds. It goes with the terratory of being a leader. People are not dumb, they realise this and will seek to find out the other angle - why do people exalt this Maharaji fellow? I think that if you want to start a war you first need an army with a purpose. You don't have that here. I disagree with you.Don't kid yourself;only to premies do the posters here come across as'disgruntled people with a chip on (their) shoulders'. To onlookers they come across as people who are trying to cope with and understand their experience of having been involved in what they feel/know was a manipulating,money making,mind control cult.They believe that Maharaji lied to them when he told them that he was god.Due to M's lying they (at his request)gave up their lives for him.They gave up family/non-family relationships,money,time,....everything. In terms of people stumbling across this site and wanting to find out why M is exalted so:most people will quickly understand that M is exalted for similar reasons as Rev.moon,Osho(late rajneesh),Rael,Hubbard,Maharishi...etc same end,perhaps different means to get there;but most people will see the similarities between the M show and all the others. In terms of statements/claims not standing up in court:There is no way on gods good earth that Maharaji wants to get anywhere near a courtroom for any reason even remotely related to Elan Vital.It has become apparent that the last thing M wants is any publicity of any kind(other then premie word of mouth publicity,which will always tow the company line)so you must understand that any lawsuit that any ex-premie/instructor/whoever would bring would most certainly be settled out of court.Even if the suit were absolutely frivilous and unfounded he would probably settle out of court immediately so as to avoid ANY publicity. That's just my opinion of course but I think it's proven by the fact that (if accurate-as Mr.Ex wrote in one of his posts)premies have actually gotten money back! If that's true what does it tell you? It tells me that Maharaji doesn't really care about your two bits and a dime.
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Date: Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 16:29:32 (EST)
Poster: bftb
Email:
To: Mili
Subject: Re: else. calling mr. ex
Message:
"It tells me that Maharaji doesn't really care about your two bits and a dime" I liked this response mili;it brought a smile to my face. Really though,if he doesn't care then why give it back?Do you think Maharaji cares about money beyond what he feels he needs to propogate knowledge?
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Date: Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 16:51:42 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: bftb
Subject: Re: else. calling mr. ex
Message:
'It tells me that Maharaji doesn't really care about your two bits and a dime' I liked this response mili;it brought a smile to my face. Really though,if he doesn't care then why give it back?Do you think Maharaji cares about money beyond what he feels he needs to propogate knowledge? Man, you're so full of questions like Pluto is full of flies. I don't know! I think he once said 'money does not grow on trees' (THIS is going to spark off some discussion, now!) I can just tell you sincerely that I never felt pressured into giving money to him (he never specifically asked for it - like , 'Give me your money!') At the festivals, I bought cassettes and magazines because I really enjoyed reading them, they were beautifully produced, I loved the ones with Shri Hans' satsangs in them and old photos. I liked the music cassetes, but alas, I don't have many left. But anyway, all that was reasonably priced - I didn't feel I was being ripped off. At the video screenings, sometimes I donate a little money to pay for the hall. Since I consider this to be the behavior of the average premie, I think most if not all of that money DOES go to propagate the Knowledge. I don't think Maharaji is this evil, double dealing fiend who is ripping everybody off. It would be too complicated to do that, and I don't think he would be able to look anybody in the eyes if he was doing that, let alone face thousands of people and bliss them out. There is some incredibly intimate, warm human contact happening at those programs. After a while all those people start smiling, and Maharaji starts smiling! Money can't buy that, man.
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Date: Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 16:52:00 (EST)
Poster: Qless
Email: bb
To: Q
Subject: newborn opposition will grow (Re: else. calling mr. ex)
Message:
I have some other ideas that have nothing to do with this talka thon. This is hardly the arena. don't think this is it. And it won't be mentioned here in advance either.
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Date: Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 17:01:55 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Qless
Subject: Re: newborn opposition will grow (Re: else. calling mr. ex)
Message:
I have some other ideas that have nothing to do with this talka thon. This is hardly the arena. don't think this is it. And it won't be mentioned here in advance either. Who gives a shit?
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Date: Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 17:05:26 (EST)
Poster: thanks
Email: bb
To: Mr Ex
Subject: x-man (Re: else. calling mr. ex)
Message:
Thanks for the help. I seem to have accepted it as final and your post is an excellent helpful effort. I am a little more activist oriented and I am sure I will feel compelled to act. Maybe that is why I felt such a unsureness because I knew if I go the other way it's big time.
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Date: Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 20:07:44 (EST)
Poster: op
Email:
To: Ms. Katie
Subject: Re: To war? calling mr. bill (Re: else. calling mr. ex)
Message:
Those who are counseled out, through therapy, exit counseling, in-residence programs, or the like, usually experience the smoothest and quickest recovery. Dear Katie: Sorry, but this sounds to me like John and Pam are suggesting this because that gives THEM the greatest increase in the pocketbook. I saw them on television, and found them incredibly closed-minded and judgmental. Although I have no qualms about those who feel that M and Knowledge are not their trip, I would approach people such as Knapp and Fitzpatrick with a lot of trepidation. To me, it's like trading one closed definition of life for another.
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Date: Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 20:11:16 (EST)
Poster: op
Email:
To: bb
Subject: Re: the quick (Re: else. calling mr. ex)
Message:
Not to mention bahari singh, ect. What about Bihari Singh? I suppose you know that he's doing service at the residence just about daily. Some people find it worthwhile to stick it out.
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Date: Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 20:30:57 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: op
Subject: Re: To war? calling mr. bill (Re: else. calling mr. ex)
Message:
Those who are counseled out, through therapy, exit counseling, in-residence programs, or the like, usually experience the smoothest and quickest recovery. Dear Katie: Sorry, but this sounds to me like John and Pam are suggesting this because that gives THEM the greatest increase in the pocketbook. I saw them on television, and found them incredibly closed-minded and judgmental. Although I have no qualms about those who feel that M and Knowledge are not their trip, I would approach people such as Knapp and Fitzpatrick with a lot of trepidation. To me, it's like trading one closed definition of life for another. Dear op - I have been a little leery of that Trancenet site because it is difficult to tell where the people who run it are coming from. (The reason I cite John and Pam is to avoid plagiarism. I don't know anything about them personally, or professionally.) Some of the material on there, especially in the FAQ section, is quite helpful (in my opinion), though, regardless of the source. I'd be quite interested to know what you know about the people who run that site.
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Date: Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 23:14:45 (EST)
Poster: Q-less
Email: bb
To: Q
Subject: Re: else. calling mr. ex
Message:
You said 'ther is not one jot of evidence that you could use in court or in the press.' Well you overlook what the press might be interested in. There is a real story here can be backed up in many ways and I will not divulge some good possibilities, but YOU HAVE NO IDEA.
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Date: Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 23:22:36 (EST)
Poster: countdown
Email: bb
To: Mili
Subject: Re: newborn opposition will grow (Re: else. calling mr. ex)
Message:
somebody will definately give a shit.
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Date: Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 23:31:55 (EST)
Poster: bahari
Email: bb
To: op
Subject: the trapped (Re: else. calling mr. ex)
Message:
well, isn't that nice, the ex-murderer has gotten to go back to work full time for nothing but a continuation of his mistaken illusion that prem rawat is the lord and after being banned for over twenty years he is given his ok to come do free work. Well what was his great crime? He tried to patch the family up again. Nice to hear that there is an end to his obvious misery after 20 years for so little a crime. He was caught in the illusion that m was lord and m used that to beat him mercilessly and it could have been just as easily HIM that died in the meantime like his mom did after she was banned for 18 years and counting.
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Date: Wed, Dec 24, 1997 at 02:26:51 (EST)
Poster: op
Email:
To: Bihari Singh-JI to you
Subject: Re: the trapped (Re: else. calling mr. ex)
Message:
well, isn't that nice, the ex-murderer has gotten to go back to work full time for nothing but a continuation of his mistaken illusion that prem rawat is the lord and after being banned for over twenty years he is given his ok to come do free work. Well what was his great crime? He tried to patch the family up again. Nice to hear that there is an end to his obvious misery after 20 years for so little a crime. He was caught in the illusion that m was lord and m used that to beat him mercilessly and it could have been just as easily HIM that died in the meantime like his mom did after she was banned for 18 years and counting. Bill This is the biggest crock of shit so far from you. Beat him mercilessly? Tried to put the family together? Ex-murderer? Have you been reading too many ISKON comic books? I have known Bihari for as long as you have (I guess - Sept 71). I have some pretty intimate knowledge of his life. Sorry to one-up you on this one, but unless you were present at a beating that I didn't see, this is all bull. Remember, also - Mataji dumped M, not the other way around. Are you accusing M of Mataji's death, too? You write very appealingly, Bill. I'm still trying to figure out who you are, now that I know that you were at the NY roast. I'm sure we must know each other from somewhere. But I'm getting a little sick of your veiled threats. Illusion is a dangerous trap, and when you tell fairy stories as reality so that you can go to the head of the class, and people believe them, you're playing a very sadistic game. (BTW - Bihari was a thief, but never murdered anyone - some 71 vintage premies liked to tag things on so that it sounded more romantic and outrageous)
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Date: Wed, Dec 24, 1997 at 18:01:30 (EST)
Poster: couldn't resist
Email: jim
To: op
Subject: Re: the trapped (Re: else. calling mr. ex)
Message:
OP, When you said: Illusion is a dangerous trap, and when you tell fairy stories as reality so that you can go to the head of the class, and people believe them, you're playing a very sadistic game. were you referring to ..........? I'd like to think you were. Imagine Dave Wiener's family reading your post. Remember? He was my teenage bud turned fellow ashramie who hung himself because he couldn't stop doubting Maharaji's divinity. I'd imagine Dave's family would say 'but, that's exactly what Maharaji did, isn't it? Didn't he tell a few fairy tales -- like about being the Supreme Lord in human form or about being the saviour of mankind, incarnated for no reason other than to bring world peace ? And wasn't that all just to get to the 'head of the class'? 'Sadistic'? Harsh.
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Date: Fri, Dec 26, 1997 at 05:15:13 (EST)
Poster: more
Email: bb
To: op
Subject: crock (Re: else. calling mr. ex)
Message:
hi op, sorry , I have the stories to back all that up. you mis read the beatings part.
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Date: Fri, Dec 26, 1997 at 14:17:51 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email: joger02@aol.com
To: op
Subject: Re: the trapped (Re: else. calling mr. ex)
Message:
When I was CC in Miami in 1980, Bihari showed up in Miami nand M wouldn't see him or give him a place to stay or anything. I guess M was still pissed at him for some reason. Bihari was a sad and pitiful character at that time, and I didn't know what to do with him. He was sort of on my hands by default. I finally found him a place to stay with some Indian premies in the Miami community. Bihari wanted back into M's world, but M wouldn't let him at that time. I never knew why. Does anyone know if it's true, and this is a story I heard numerous times, including from someone who claims to have been there, that M used to hit Bihari a lot and on one occasion, on the roof of a building in Kansas City in the middle of the Winter, made Bihari sit in a tub full of freezing water, to the apparent great amusement of Maharaji for some, unknown, sadistic purpse? JW
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Date: Fri, Dec 26, 1997 at 14:30:49 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: op
Subject: Re: the trapped (Re: else. calling mr. ex)
Message:
You write very appealingly, Bill. I'm still trying to figure out who you are, now that I know that you were at the NY roast. I'm sure we must know each other from somewhere. But I'm getting a little sick of your veiled threats. OP, is this some kind of "veiled threat," or is this just a "crock of shit?" Are you trying to scare Bill off, knowing his concern about retribution if exposed? Somehow I think it will have an effect opposite of that which you desire. JW
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Date: Mon, Dec 22, 1997 at 23:34:20 (EST)
Poster: John Cavad
Email:
To: Everyone
Subject: Average Life of Premie
Message:
Does anyone know the average life of a premie? My guess is three to six years. Are most premies from the 70's and early 80's gone? How stupid are we? How long does it take to wake up these days?
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Date: Mon, Dec 22, 1997 at 16:39:57 (EST)
Poster: John Cavad
Email:
To: Everyone
Subject: A Rich Man
Message:
Maybe he's a rich man. I couldn’t give a hoot how much money he earned in all those years I was a young premie, and I still don’t. As a capitalist, he deserved a good penny for his product (whatever it is he's selling). His conspicuous consumption may have been a bit overwhelming to some and perhaps damaging to his public image. But first and foremost, keep in mind GMJ is a great capitalist deserving of some form of admiration for his unprecedented financial success. Wall Street investmant bankers are earning one million dollar bonuses this year. What is he getting this year since the market did so well?
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Date: Mon, Dec 22, 1997 at 23:22:10 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: John Cavad
Subject: Re: A Rich Man
Message:
Maybe he's a rich man. I couldn’t give a hoot how much money he earned in all those years I was a young premie, and I still don’t. As a capitalist, he deserved a good penny for his product (whatever it is he's selling). His conspicuous consumption may have been a bit overwhelming to some and perhaps damaging to his public image. But first and foremost, keep in mind GMJ is a great capitalist deserving of some form of admiration for his unprecedented financial success. Wall Street investmant bankers are earning one million dollar bonuses this year. What is he getting this year since the market did so well? Despite my ever-waning Marxist tendencies, I also do not have anything against people who are rich. But I think there is a moral and ethical issue involved in HOW the money is obtained. I don't think someone derserves "admiration" just because he or she IS rich; the method of obtaining the wealth has to be addressed. I think M made his money under false pretenses. He prayed on the insecurities and the sincerity of a lot of people to get what he's got. And it seemed that a lot was never enough. He ALWAYS needed more, and always felt he deserved it just because he was who he was. I cannot accept that. While I was a premie, and IN LOVE with my master, I still had twinges of being unable to reconcile his incredible greed, especially when it became a test of one's devotion to give ever more, and many people suffered by giving more than they should. Premies will give the standard line that it was all a matter of personal choice and no one FORCED anyone to be a premie, let alone give money. But that NOT the whole picture. The milieu of the cult was such that those kinds of decisions, to refrain from giving more were, for many people, really not possible. When I turned over my trust fund, there was no question that that is what I should do. I was living in a closed system with absolutes. Maharaji was the incarnation of god on the planet and my savior. NOTHING was too good for him. Well, maybe he isn't that anymore, but if he wasn't that then, then he took that money under false pretenses and that is unethical and dispicable. Our capitalist system can produce a lot of wealth , but it isn't very good at social justice; I think that's obvious. Some people, maybe like Wall Street investment bankers and some others, get more of the pie than the deserve, while others, who work just as hard get almost nothing. But I don't think that's any excuse for someone like M, who hasn't worked a day in his life, to accept a lifestyle better than all but a handful of people in the world, by conning people into believing he is something he isn't. Plus, I think there is a difference between making lots of money and just being plain greedy. And I think M is just plain greedy. He's an example of the thing he said makes people unhappy: desires. Once you have something, you want more, and M has had a meal ticket to get that big time, and what is the result? FLEETS of cars, PERSONAL aircraft, MULTIPLE residences, GOLD bathroom fixtures, and all the rest of it. Adequate or very good is not enough. It has to be the very BEST. He is such a bad example of the thing he preaches. JW
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Date: Mon, Dec 22, 1997 at 23:52:02 (EST)
Poster: John C
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: A Rich Man
Message:
JW, thanks for the perspective and insight. I enjoyed your writing. Tell me, is this man grateful or what? And did you really sign over your trust fund? I hardly gave a dime more than I had to, I'm so pleased to admit. I always thought, he had plenty...a lot more than most of us poor scmucks that kept losing our jobs to attend fesivals.
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Date: Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 00:55:06 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: John C
Subject: Re: A Rich Man
Message:
JW, thanks for the perspective and insight. I enjoyed your writing. Tell me, is this man grateful or what? And did you really sign over your trust fund? I hardly gave a dime more than I had to, I'm so pleased to admit. I always thought, he had plenty...a lot more than most of us poor scmucks that kept losing our jobs to attend fesivals. Thanks, John. I think "gratitude," in Maharaji's perverted world, only goes ONE WAY. From others to HIM. It doesn't go the other way. He gets what he gets because he is entitled to and deserves it. Period, end of sentence. He doesn't need to be grateful to anyone. He's god. I'm very embarrassed to say I did turn over my trust fund, as well as my income for 9 years. We even sold flowers on the street, just like the moonies, to raise money for the lord's boondoggles. I also worked jobs in the ashram to support other premies who worked in the lord's businesses, making money for HIM, at slave wages. I understand he now controls those businesses outright so there is a steady stream of money. But, according to Mr. Ex, that isn't enough to keep the lord in $5000 suits and fancy cars. I guess EL is in debt. What WILL they do? Maybe start up the ashrams again? Probably just do a fund-raiser so that the premies can, once again, show "gratitude."
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Date: Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 00:56:39 (EST)
Poster: he's getting at least 6 million
Email: bb
To: John Cavad
Subject: Re: A Rich Man
Message:
Excuse me but a capitalist takes goods or services and sells them at a profit. The only sane way to do business, unless you want to beg and call it the grace. A capitalist does not take your money and your life. A capitalist sells you short entertainment. Not a lifetime of living for him. A capitalist will have competition. a capitalist provides good paying jobs with benefits and retirement. a capitalist is gods' way of brother's working together. Businessmen who give less or cheat are called something else. When people don't follow good capitalist rules we get depressions. Asia has come to a halt because they were cheating. They were corrupt and not following capital rules and they have caused great suffering for millions. M is getting 6 million or at least that is the figure he wanted as a minimum for the year.
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Date: Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 08:32:34 (EST)
Poster: Bobby
Email:
To: re:singing the praises of capitalism
Subject: Re: A Rich Man
Message:
a capitalist provides good paying jobs with benefits and retirement. a capitalist is gods' way of brother's working together. Oh, pul-leeezzze! Good paying jobs with benefits and retirement? God's way of brothers working together?!?! Capitalism? What world are you living in?
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Date: Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 13:52:59 (EST)
Poster: Michael
Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net
To: JW
Subject: Re: A Rich Man
Message:
I agree with you 100%, JW, regarding M's greed. This was the first level of cognitive dissonance for me as a Premie. I remember asking other Premies "why do we keep buying M all these cars and houses and stuff?" I was told that it didn't matter since "he isn't attached to material possessions." When I suggested that, since he wasn't attached and it wouldn't matter to him, perhaps we should bring the Gravy Train to a halt, I was told that I was in my mind and to go meditate. I guess that beautiful, blissful experience wasn't enough to over-ride my cognitive dissonance.
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Date: Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 23:10:46 (EST)
Poster: dont let the
Email: bb
To: Bobby
Subject: word throw you (Re: A Rich Man)
Message:
Bobby, You bought the book at some store, I'll bet it was a bookstore you frequent regularly, nice place, nice folks running it, well, Maybe the owner is even a tibetian buddist, so he gets capital from the bank or relatives or savings and offers you a service of providing you a nice environment to shop, the employees are liked by the owner and he tries to pay them as best as he can, he gives them what he can, if he made 6 million profit this year you can bet his employees would be well taken care of because he is a human and we are basically all good. With some noteable exceptions. He is a capitalist and that is the same story everywhere, There are some unscrupulous people who are afflicted with greed and no apparent love for thier fellow man, but these people are not called capitalists by business week magazine or Forbes magazine, they are called shysters or other names. There are always rotten folks to use the systems and give the rest a bad name, but look at the systems that are not capitalistic, first, they end up bancrupting the business or nation, like russia for example, because there HAS to be a profit. And all the effort of the local people is wasted and the future that they could be building with thier time and effort is not only destroyed but thier children get no improvement in thier lives. There is no other system of trade that could build hope for betterment than one based on the smart use of capital. I figure you know this but the way I put it at first made it look like something else.
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Date: Mon, Dec 22, 1997 at 16:24:01 (EST)
Poster: John Cavad
Email:
To: Everyone
Subject: The bright side of Satsang
Message:
Eight years of Satsang wasn't all a waste for me. From giving Satsang, I learned to become a passionate and effective public speaker. (Much better than ten years at Toastmasters.) You know, I practically failed public speaking in school. I nearly fainted from fright as I stuttered in front of a podium... until I learned from Satsang. Satsang has given me the confidence to speak in front of people, hundreds of people with great confidence, even if the contents of my presentation is nonsense or total bullsh*t. Thus, I must concede how grateful I am for Satsang. From Service, I learned nothing.
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Date: Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 01:43:06 (EST)
Poster: 8 times
Email: bb
To: John Cavad
Subject: 365 (Re: The bright side of Satsang)
Message:
lets see, 8 times 365 is how many nights of sitting listening to the same people say satsang service and meditation. People are amazed if they find out I never saw mork and mindy or happy days or whatever the hell else was on the tv or concerts or family gatherings or fathers days or weddings or movies or parties or playing guitar with my previous friends. I know one guy who was a ballet dancer and he was the top of the hartford ballet and he gave it up because of the ashram pressure and it's better to serve the lord. He ended up being a kitchen flunky for years at the broadripple. He got to teach m's girls ballet briefly. We were all there for the whims of the family and the endless desires for absolutely the finest in goods and services. Everything had to be absolutely impeccable. And no opposition or equals were allowed. I guess I understand mr ex after all. why can't I just accept. for once and for all.
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Date: Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 01:46:10 (EST)
Poster: minimum
Email: bb
To: 8 times
Subject: 10 times 365 for me (Re: The bright side of Satsang)
Message:
you were 8 years, I was definately at least 11 years of the nightly stuff, except when we were working of course.
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Date: Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 10:13:05 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: 8 times
Subject: Re: 365 (Re: The bright side of Satsang)
Message:
Right, Bill. So many people forfeited important things in their lives, as you say, under the pressure of satsang, service and meditation and serving the lord. Many people dropped out of college and graduate school. Many marriages were destroyed. Many people missed, like you say, so many important events with the people who were their REAL family, not Maharaji and his greed, but their own flesh and blood. And there are LOTs of regrets and it's very sad and Maharaji, instigator of all that, hasn't even once, to my knowledge, taken even one shred of responsibility. This, in my mind, is what makes him such a reprehensible person. [I was going to call him a "suck-wad" but my catholic upbringing won't allow it, so I won't.] There were even people who were so frustrated at not being able to surrender EVERYTHING, that they killed themselves or destroyed their health trying to "purify" themselves for Mahrarji, or burning themselves out and destroying their health in "service" through constant, slave-like service. When one premie got used up, there was a large supply for Maharaji to exploit. JW
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Date: Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 11:40:13 (EST)
Poster: John K.
Email:
To: John Cavad
Subject: Re: The bright side of Satsang
Message:
John Cavad: I agree with some of what you say.That's funny to hear you were in toastmasters? I joined toastmasters after leaving M because I missed the high I used to get from giving ss. and I did get high from giving speeches - the only difference was my speeches were evaluated - of course ss was never evaluated - and the speeches were supposed to make sense! Now that was a challenge for me, but it was fun. You got nothing from service? Hmmmm..were you doing it selflessly? maybe you were not doing it with a pure heart, maybe you were actually hoping to accomplish something?
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Date: Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 12:22:47 (EST)
Poster: John Cavad
Email:
To: John K.
Subject: Re: The bright side of Satsang
Message:
Service? Well, I did get a few things out of Service, I suppose. I made lots of good friends from around the world. I met lots of hot sisters (there were so many) during Serive who would flirt with me, and being a young guy, that was quite stimulating for me. I loved all the brothers too (except the Nazi-type ass holes) in a brotherly way. Service, I did often, but would rarely sacrifice precious personal time to do it. For example, while all those poor premies were doing Service in Rome, day & night, I (being an avid traveller) took interesting tours of the city, went shopping, went to a few fine restaurants, etc. I took advantage of being in a new city. Why not? I bumped into very few premies in the streets doing the same thing. When I would return at night for the evening program, so many premies were trying to give me mind-trips about me sightseeing all day and not spending the day doing Service for M. It never made me feel guilty. When in Denver for a program, I would hike in Estes Park. I would almost always do something else in a city where there was a program besides S,S, & M. But don't get the wrong idea. I was a very devout premie that did S,S & M daily like a religious fanantic. Through all those years, I still believed there was more in life to experience, regardless of what other premies laid on me. I understood Service really was necessary to fuel M's mission, but come on now..
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Date: Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 12:52:25 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email: joger02aol.com
To: John Cavad
Subject: Re: The bright side of Satsang
Message:
Service, I did often, but would rarely sacrifice precious personal time to do it. For example, while all those poor premies were doing Service in Rome, day & night, I (being an avid traveller) took interesting tours of the city, went shopping, went to a few fine restaurants, etc. I took advantage of being in a new city. Why not? I bumped into very few premies in the streets doing the same thing. When I would return at night for the evening program, so many premies were trying to give me mind-trips about me sightseeing all day and not spending the day doing Service for M. It never made me feel guilty. Gee, John. Wish I had been as balanced as you. In fact, I was probably one of those premies that laid a trip on you for not doing service constantly and going sightseeing. I hope I wasn't one of those "nazi" brothers. There sure were a lot of them, David Smith being the most extreme Nazi, in my experience. I also remember M saying you should come to a program as devotees and not just "visitors," which he said in a negative way. I remember the 1977 Rome program. I never saw a single thing outsite the hall where the program was, except for the ride on the bus to and from the hall. Amazing, isn't it? JW
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Date: Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 13:07:41 (EST)
Poster: John K.
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: The bright side of Satsang
Message:
Yeah, poor John C. definetly missed out on some great service opportunities while he was out sighseeing and having 'fun'. yep, that is one of the embarassing things for me now to admit to people that yes, I have been to Rome. What did I see there? the inside of a bull rink filled with thousands of people being lectured to by my guru. Wasn't that the festival where a baby was born and the mother asked m to name it, and he named it the ugliest name I had ever heard? It was so bizarre, does anyone remember that name?
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Date: Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 13:14:55 (EST)
Poster: John Cavad
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: The bright side of Satsang
Message:
JW, I don't know who you are so I don't know if you laid a trip on me. If you did, I was never, ever upset. I was always a bit self-indulgent in these cercumstances. So, I believed that if M can ride his speed boat (paid by us schmucks) in the Miami bay (as I had witnessed), I can certainly take a few hours to enjoy things like the Vatican (I saw the Pope while there!), the great art of Michaelangelo, and much more. I'm sorry you missed out in Rome. You seem like an intelligent & inquisitive person that would have loved all the culture Rome had to offer. Now, when I go on business trips, I make sure there's always time for a little fun, regardless of what others think. The corporate world is a cult onto itself. So, I've learned to work around that too.
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Date: Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 13:20:27 (EST)
Poster: John C
Email:
To: John K.
Subject: Re: The bright side of Satsang
Message:
Yeah, poor John C. definetly missed out on some great service opportunities while he was out sighseeing and having 'fun'. yep, that is one of the embarassing things for me now to admit to people that yes, I have been to Rome. What did I see there? the inside of a bull rink filled with thousands of people being lectured to by my guru. Wasn't that the festival where a baby was born and the mother asked m to name it, and he named it the ugliest name I had ever heard? It was so bizarre, does anyone remember that name? Yes, you sparked off a memory from 20 years ago. Indeed, I remember. People would also go to Frank Zappa and ask him to name their children. I suppose, I was such a bad premie since I spent over 1,000 dollars (American) to go ROme. To think? I would want to do something like have fun.
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Date: Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 13:22:39 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: John K.
Subject: Re: The bright side of Satsang
Message:
Wasn't that the festival where a baby was born and the mother asked m to name it, and he named it the ugliest name I had ever heard? It was so bizarre, does anyone remember that name? Yes (laughing) he did. He named the baby, get this, 'SATGANGA' which I think means "river of truth." To make matters even more ridiculous, the baby was born to a couple from Providence, whose last name was "Klinkenberg." Really! That poor kid's name was "Satganga Klinkenberg." (Sorry, I have to removed my fingers from the keyboard to laugh and cry at the same time!)
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Date: Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 13:25:37 (EST)
Poster: John C
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: The bright side of Satsang
Message:
Service, I did often, but would rarely sacrifice precious personal time to do it. For example, while all those poor premies were doing Service in Rome, day & night, I (being an avid traveller) took interesting tours of the city, went shopping, went to a few fine restaurants, etc. I took advantage of being in a new city. Why not? I bumped into very few premies in the streets doing the same thing. When I would return at night for the evening program, so many premies were trying to give me mind-trips about me sightseeing all day and not spending the day doing Service for M. It never made me feel guilty. Gee, John. Wish I had been as balanced as you. In fact, I was probably one of those premies that laid a trip on you for not doing service constantly and going sightseeing. I hope I wasn't one of those 'nazi' brothers. There sure were a lot of them, David Smith being the most extreme Nazi, in my experience. I also remember M saying you should come to a program as devotees and not just 'visitors,' which he said in a negative way. I remember the 1977 Rome program. I never saw a single thing outsite the hall where the program was, except for the ride on the bus to and from the hall. Amazing, isn't it? JW David Smith, the initiator? Tall, slim, short wavy brown hair. He was at my house for Satsang. I brought him there since I was his driver when he was in town. He was in my car as the Jonestown news came through the radio.
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Date: Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 13:31:28 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: John Cavad
Subject: Re: The bright side of Satsang
Message:
JW, I don't know who you are so I don't know if you laid a trip on me. If you did, I was never, ever upset. I was always a bit self-indulgent in these cercumstances. So, I believed that if M can ride his speed boat (paid by us schmucks) in the Miami bay (as I had witnessed), I can certainly take a few hours to enjoy things like the Vatican (I saw the Pope while there!), the great art of Michaelangelo, and much more. I'm sorry you missed out in Rome. You seem like an intelligent & inquisitive person that would have loved all the culture Rome had to offer. Now, when I go on business trips, I make sure there's always time for a little fun, regardless of what others think. The corporate world is a cult onto itself. So, I've learned to work around that too. I do feel embarrassed by some of the things I said to both premies and aspirants in my official DLM capacity. But I could never be the "heavy" satsang-giver and I couldn't relate to the "service freaks" either. Since being out of the cult, I've been to Rome twice, so I got to see a lot of what you talked about. I've never been able to return to Miami, however. My cult experience there was so negative that I still view that place, and associate it so much with the greedy excesses of Maharaji, that it's about as attractive as a black, bug-infested, swamp. You know, kind of like that Kissimmee place were we had Hans Jayanti those years.
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Date: Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 13:33:52 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email: joger02aol.com
To: John C
Subject: Re: The bright side of Satsang
Message:
/i>David Smith, the initiator? Tall, slim, short wavy brown hair. He was at my house for Satsang. I brought him there since I was his driver when he was in town. He was in my car as the Jonestown news came through the radio. Yes, that's him. Truly a mentally sick individual with strong sadistic tendencies. And guess what? He's still running things from what I've heard.
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Date: Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 14:27:42 (EST)
Poster: John K.
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: The bright side of Satsang
Message:
Thanks Joe, 'Satganga'- that is hysterical. When I heard he had named the child Satganga, since I was not able to simply say to myself my guru has just named the child the ugliest name in the world, I clearly remember my reasoning was that this was another one of his 'lilas'. I wonder how long those parents kept that name before they came to their senses.
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Date: Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 15:03:31 (EST)
Poster: John C
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: The bright side of Satsang
Message:
/i>David Smith, the initiator? Tall, slim, short wavy brown hair. He was at my house for Satsang. I brought him there since I was his driver when he was in town. He was in my car as the Jonestown news came through the radio. Yes, that's him. Truly a mentally sick individual with strong sadistic tendencies. And guess what? He's still running things from what I've heard. I didn't realize he was that sick. Hope he's at the mass suicide convention. Some initiators were very pleasant...let me think of one...ahh...let's see...mmmm...Guru Charanand...yea, him. Give him a sitar (every premie should have one) and he'll give you a good show. Really, though, he was a fun kind of guy when you got to know him.
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Date: Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 15:31:15 (EST)
Poster: John K.
Email:
To: John C
Subject: Re: The bright side of Satsang
Message:
Wellll, I LIKED David Smith. (and I could not stomach gurucharanand - I didn't like taking orders from holy men) I always saw David smith as a truly tortured soul, pine-ing away, wanting only to be at the feet of the master. I remember hearing him go on and on about the ARMS of M. David was actually in love with the physical form of m. I think at one time, I figured there must be something wrong with me because I really was not attracted to his physical body. I just did not care about his bare breasts in the krishna outfit. Now seeing Marilyn in THAT kind of outfit, now that's a different story. I would have been very interested in that.
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Date: Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 16:05:22 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: John K.
Subject: Re: The bright side of Satsang
Message:
Wellll, I LIKED David Smith. (and I could not stomach gurucharanand - I didn't like taking orders from holy men) I always saw David smith as a truly tortured soul, pine-ing away, wanting only to be at the feet of the master. I remember hearing him go on and on about the ARMS of M. David was actually in love with the physical form of m. I think at one time, I figured there must be something wrong with me because I really was not attracted to his physical body. I just did not care about his bare breasts in the krishna outfit. Now seeing Marilyn in THAT kind of outfit, now that's a different story. I would have been very interested in that. I always liked Smith too, although I agree he was "tortured" (maybe that's why I liked him), but then I had an experience with him that was the worst of all my experience in DLM. Once he got power, he turned into a real nazi. It seemed when he got power over people his personality REALLY changed. Especially when the power was over the most vulnerable premies -- those simple ashram premies. I won't go into all the details, but it was 1981 and Smith was in charge of the West Coast. [M had "regions" then, with an initiator in charge of each one.] M said something to Smith that he should "clean up the ashrams." The result was an inquisition and Smith's sadistic tendencies were writ large because he truly believed that he was totally controlled by Maharaji and whatever came into his head was god talking. Very scary. There was a lot of psychological abuse directed at some very simple and vulnerable ashram premies by Mr. Smith. He also got premies to rat on each other and demanded that people not have "special friends" read books, or be too "into" their jobs. He even went through premies closets and threw out clothes if he thought, by what standard I don't know, that they had too many. And he seemed to really ENJOY hurting people. And I never saw so many very nice premies turned into uptight robots. I was appalled and really shocked. Even some of the other initiators told me they thought he had mental problems. I confronted him too. He also said in satsang once that before knowledge he had beat up some girl. So, I guess he tendency was always there. About a year later he sort of apologized to the premies, probably because so many people came down on him but, when confronted by me, he said it was all "perfect" and part of Maharaji's plan. After that I couldn't stand the sight of him. I had never known such inhumanity before or since in my entire premie involvement, even among the more insane mahatmas. As I said, I should be grateful, because it was his actions that made me lose faith that M had any involvement whatsoever in protecting the premies who were devoting their lives to him, and enabled my leaving for good. I liked Gurucharanand too, but you know he was screwing sisters while being Mr. Holy as well. I was never attracted to M either, which was the source of some guilt for me, and when I got close to him, I saw how greasy and fat he was and that made me feel more guilty. And when he shook those large breasts at festivals, well, then I really felt un-surrendered and confused. Marolyn, well she sure had great clothes, that we all helped pay for! JW JW
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Date: Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 17:25:44 (EST)
Poster: JK
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: The bright side of Satsang
Message:
That's sad to hear what happened to you with DS. though I am hardly surprised, he was always so intensely intent upon merging with m It all comes down to not thinking for oneself. Not following instincts, subjugating ideas and opinions, suppressing one's own instinctive feelings - to the will of the master. The devotee trip is such a god damn heavy scene. It's so much lighter and freer to simply follow one's own inner voice or reason. And the basic question is 'if m IS so powerful why does he allow people to do such crazy things to each other'. Now the standard premie answer to that is 'god gives us all free will, god cannot make us good'. my answer to that then is, 'fine, if practicing this thing called knowledge and getting close to the master makes people behave like ass holes then WHO NEEDS IT?' Are you listening GOD? I don't need your human representatives to make things crazy, things are crazy enough already!!!
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Date: Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 18:33:58 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email: joger02@aol.com
To: JK
Subject: Re: The bright side of Satsang
Message:
That's sad to hear what happened to you with DS. though I am hardly surprised, he was always so intensely intent upon merging with m It all comes down to not thinking for oneself. Not following instincts, subjugating ideas and opinions, suppressing one's own instinctive feelings - to the will of the master. The devotee trip is such a god damn heavy scene. It's so much lighter and freer to simply follow one's own inner voice or reason. And the basic question is 'if m IS so powerful why does he allow people to do such crazy things to each other'. Now the standard premie answer to that is 'god gives us all free will, god cannot make us good'. my answer to that then is, 'fine, if practicing this thing called knowledge and getting close to the master makes people behave like ass holes then WHO NEEDS IT?' Are you listening GOD? I don't need your human representatives to make things crazy, things are crazy enough already!!! Well said, John. I couldn't agree me. Regarding Smith, I agree, he is likely as much a victim as the people he tormented. But most of the premies, with few exceptions, did manage to maintain some degree of humanity, even in their most programmed, cult-crazy moments. That time with Smith was the only time I really felt humanity disappeared entirely. It was so opposed to all the values I had that it kind of woke me up and I think, like you said, I started to think for myself again. Kind of like waking up from a dream or something. Only it was a 10-year dream. In my experience, since M was so "hands off" the premies, in that he had no idea who they were and cared less except for what the could give him, it allowed those he put in charge to have free reign over them. Not a good situation, with lots of problems as a result. JW
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Date: Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 23:39:18 (EST)
Poster: names
Email: bb
To: John K.
Subject: side of Satsang (Re: The bright side of Satsang)
Message:
henry?
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Date: Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 23:47:04 (EST)
Poster: Watch it, bill
Email:
To: bbill
Subject: Henry is a great name (Re: The bright side of Satsang)
Message:
henry? Henry means ruler of an enclosure (according to our 1952 dictionary. We named our cat that. I think it's a great name. (I would never name my cat Satganga!)
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Date: Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 23:49:20 (EST)
Poster: char not anand
Email: bb
To: John C
Subject: anymore (Re: The bright side of Satsang)
Message:
he came by a couple years ago and I was surprised by his lack of any real thing to say. He did laugh twice, but that was when he was making fun of a girl who gave all her money to m and then didn't have any to go to the miami event. I couldn't for the life of me understand what was so funny about her (as he inplied it) foolishness.
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Date: Wed, Dec 24, 1997 at 18:20:41 (EST)
Poster: john
Email: john@y
To: char not anand
Subject: Re: anymore (Re: The bright side of Satsang)
Message:

To all

~MERRY XMAS~

M@haraji

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Date: Wed, Dec 24, 1997 at 18:33:02 (EST)
Poster: john2
Email: john@y
To: john
Subject: Re: anymore (Re: The bright side of Satsang)
Message:

To all

~MERRY XMAS~

M@haraji

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Date: Wed, Dec 24, 1997 at 18:39:07 (EST)
Poster: john3
Email: john@y
To: john
Subject: Re: anymore (Re: The bright side of Satsang)
Message:

To all

~MERRY XMAS~

M@haraji

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Date: Mon, Dec 22, 1997 at 16:17:25 (EST)
Poster: John Cavad
Email:
To: Everyone
Subject: Why Change Gurus?
Message:
What amazes me is that some ex-premies have actually moved on to other gurus. I don’t get it. M was the best, the top, the master of them all. He made the most sense (while hypnotized). He communicated the clearest to Westerners. He was the best salesman of them all. After him, no other can compare. Why would anyone want to find another guru? Finding another guru is just substituting one addiction for another (e.g. hard drugs to a Christian Fundalmentalist) From a guru point of view, there could be no other as perfect as M, and I know it. That’s one of the aftereffects of leaving him. To this day, I shut out anybody that tries to sell me a package of religion or spiritual stuff. Why? I already had the very best guru this world has to offer...and I found out that even the best is handing us a pile of dung.
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Date: Mon, Dec 22, 1997 at 17:28:15 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: John Cavad
Subject: Re: Why Change Gurus?
Message:
What amazes me is that some ex-premies have actually moved on to other gurus. I don’t get it. M was the best, the top, the master of them all. He made the most sense (while hypnotized). He communicated the clearest to Westerners. He was the best salesman of them all. After him, no other can compare. Why would anyone want to find another guru? Finding another guru is just substituting one addiction for another (e.g. hard drugs to a Christian Fundalmentalist) From a guru point of view, there could be no other as perfect as M, and I know it. That’s one of the aftereffects of leaving him. To this day, I shut out anybody that tries to sell me a package of religion or spiritual stuff. Why? I already had the very best guru this world has to offer...and I found out that even the best is handing us a pile of dung. I personally don't know any ex-premies that went on to other "gurus." In fact, most have become quite secular, following no spiritual masters and not even belonging to an established religion. But I'm sure there are some who did otherwise. Since I haven't followed any other gurus, I can't say how Maharaji measures up. From what I have heard, most gurus fall into the same ego-trip that Maharaji has. They get corrupted by the adoration, money and power and I think they can go kind of nuts. Most of the ex-premies I know, and the premies I knew, were from fairly religious backgrounds, or came from a religious tradition. This is why, in my opinion, Catholics and Jews were disproportinately represented among premies. But when they left the cult, they followed no religious tradition. For me, personally, after having been raised a traditional Catholic, and then 10 years of being a premie, with all the guilt and shame in that cult that was as bad as my catholic upbringing, I was ready to be done with religion, gurus, and most spirituality of any sort. I wanted to see and feel things for myself without any filter of religious belief or practice. And you know what? It's been great.
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Date: Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 02:06:25 (EST)
Poster: John C
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: Why Change Gurus?
Message:
Surprisingly, I’ve known a few premies that moved on to other gurus after M. Insane? They were very trippy premies. I’ve been around and exposed to many other cults (Children of God, Shri Chinmoy, Krishna’s, etc.) and I must still say that M’s was the most Westernized and normal ones out of all of them (in the 70’s when cults were a part of pop culture). There’s a book in book stores (“Cults” I think is the name) that gives the religious and age demographics of the DLM members. Your right: Jews & Catholics, mostly educated and young were the vast majority from the West that joined.
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Date: Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 15:29:01 (EST)
Poster: bftb
Email:
To: John C
Subject: Re: Why Change Gurus?
Message:
Surprisingly, I’ve known a few premies that moved on to other gurus after M. Insane? They were very trippy premies. I’ve been around and exposed to many other cults (Children of God, Shri Chinmoy, Krishna’s, etc.) and I must still say that M’s was the most Westernized and normal ones out of all of them (in the 70’s when cults were a part of pop culture). There’s a book in book stores (“Cults” I think is the name) that gives the religious and age demographics of the DLM members. Your right: Jews & Catholics, mostly educated and young were the vast majority from the West that joined. In '91 I knew of one person,who within a few months of recieving knowledge left the whole premie scene because she had discovered a new group from Hawaii called The Hunas? (sp?)I know nothing about that group. I recall lots of premies relating that they had done other meditations(TM...etc)before practicing knowledge and that knowledge was the most effective.I wonder if there are people in TM(or other meditation groups) who say that they practiced knowledge before TM and that TM is far more effective? It wouldn't surprise me. How did the people you knew who joined other groups rationalize it?If they had originally believed/known M to be god,then how did they switch the god mantle to whoever their new leader was?Did they then admit/think that M was in fact making fraudulent claims,or was he still god but less so then their new god?(yes,silly and illogical but I wonder how others rationalize all this god stuff)
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Date: Mon, Dec 22, 1997 at 14:06:06 (EST)
Poster: Nigel
Email: NLonghurst@aol.co.uk
To: Everyone
Subject: Knowledge and Evolution
Message:
Does any premie or ex-premie out there remember Mr Lotus-feet ever saying anything about evolution by natural selection and how it might relate to Knowledge and the role of the 'Perfect' Master? (I'm not interested in discussing evolution versus 'Creationism' - if you don't accept the overwhelming evidence in support of Darwinian theory then you have a problem I probably can't help you with) I seem to remember Big M once speaking favourably of David Attenborough's TV series 'Life on Earth', but without making any references to any of its theoretical implications. For the most part, as I recall, Maharaj ji's repeated references to 'The Creator' who put human beings on planet Earth FOR A PURPOSE (ie., to realise Knowledge, go to festivals, buy videos, etc.) seem to place him firmly in the Creationist camp. The fact of evolution raises some interesting questions: Our near-relative (though, it seems, a separate species) Neanderthal Man became extinct in the fairly recent past. What was the Creator's purpose in creating him/her? Or did they have their own Living Perfect Neanderthal who led them all to everlasting bliss? (Maybe he told them not to have children, which is why they became extinct...) Or go back sixty million years to when our own ancestors resembled the modern tree-shrew. Did we all pranam to a big chief rodent? When did we stop being mere animals, and become 'the crown of creation' instead - with a separate divine destiny from that of the 'lesser' beings? And on whose authority should we accept it that human beings are especially privileged in this respect? Shri Hans, I assume, had a guru who had a guru before him, who would have lived before Darwin, and I suspect the philosophical worldview inherited by successive gurus in this chain hasn't changed one iota since the Middle Ages (or the Indian equivalent). Belief in Karma, reincarnation, devotion to the master, prashad, holy water etc., go back centuries, and are part of a pre-scientific cosmology. Some of it, I daresay, might even be superstitious nonsense (understatement of the century?) Has GMJ offered any explanations on reconciling modern biology to ancient traditions? Is reincarnation in or out? - etc, etc... I can understand why some people find scientific explanations for complex human phenomena such as consciousness unsatisfying, but far less satisfying are the teachings of people whose own message ignores science altogether and doesn't even attempt to bind together differing approaches to the study of reality. I would have thought that truth is truth, however you choose to look at it. Western premies tend to be well educated. Don't they deserve answers to these sorts of question? (Probably not, otherwise they would DEMAND answers to these sorts of question). Best wishes
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Date: Mon, Dec 22, 1997 at 14:31:13 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: Nigel
Subject: Re: Knowledge and Evolution
Message:
Does any premie or ex-premie out there remember Mr Lotus-feet ever saying anything about evolution by natural selection and how it might relate to Knowledge and the role of the 'Perfect' Master? (I'm not interested in discussing evolution versus 'Creationism' - if you don't accept the overwhelming evidence in support of Darwinian theory then you have a problem I probably can't help you with) I seem to remember Big M once speaking favourably of David Attenborough's TV series 'Life on Earth', but without making any references to any of its theoretical implications. For the most part, as I recall, Maharaj ji's repeated references to 'The Creator' who put human beings on planet Earth FOR A PURPOSE (ie., to realise Knowledge, go to festivals, buy videos, etc.) seem to place him firmly in the Creationist camp. The fact of evolution raises some interesting questions: Our near-relative (though, it seems, a separate species) Neanderthal Man became extinct in the fairly recent past. What was the Creator's purpose in creating him/her? Or did they have their own Living Perfect Neanderthal who led them all to everlasting bliss? (Maybe he told them not to have children, which is why they became extinct...) Or go back sixty million years to when our own ancestors resembled the modern tree-shrew. Did we all pranam to a big chief rodent? When did we stop being mere animals, and become 'the crown of creation' instead - with a separate divine destiny from that of the 'lesser' beings? And on whose authority should we accept it that human beings are especially privileged in this respect? Shri Hans, I assume, had a guru who had a guru before him, who would have lived before Darwin, and I suspect the philosophical worldview inherited by successive gurus in this chain hasn't changed one iota since the Middle Ages (or the Indian equivalent). Belief in Karma, reincarnation, devotion to the master, prashad, holy water etc., go back centuries, and are part of a pre-scientific cosmology. Some of it, I daresay, might even be superstitious nonsense (understatement of the century?) Has GMJ offered any explanations on reconciling modern biology to ancient traditions? Is reincarnation in or out? - etc, etc... I can understand why some people find scientific explanations for complex human phenomena such as consciousness unsatisfying, but far less satisfying are the teachings of people whose own message ignores science altogether and doesn't even attempt to bind together differing approaches to the study of reality. I would have thought that truth is truth, however you choose to look at it. Western premies tend to be well educated. Don't they deserve answers to these sorts of question? (Probably not, otherwise they would DEMAND answers to these sorts of question). Best wishes I don't know if M ever said anything about evolution. I never heard him say anything about it. He certainly DID preach reincarnation and I even heard him talk about that as a reality at big programs in front of thousands of people in the late 70s. I don't know if he still believes in it, though. Now, whether that places him in the "creationist" camp or not, I can't say. I wouldn't be surprised, being the thorougly modern guru he has become, that he would say he believed in evolution if asked, and that reincarnation can be squared with that belief. M used to be steeped in the Hindi tradition and most of his statements come from that. I'm sure he has modified that over the years, but maybe he doesn't say much about it when he goes to India. I mean it's pretty crazy to be a creationist, but then be willing to take advantage of evolutionary development for yourself, like cars, planes and communication advancements, and M would be in the same dilemma. But M had a lot of crazy ideas about stuff that turned out to be half-truths that he got from watching too much television, in my opinion. As I mentioned earlier, he thought oil came from dinosaurs, which he pronounced "Dina Shores." He was pretty uneducated about a lot of this stuff, but he probably picked it up over the years, I mean his kids probabaly have more education than he ever had and he has probably talked to them from time to time and learned a few things. But I think part of the problem for him is that most of the PAM are shcyophants and aren't about to tell M, their lord and master, that he is wrong about ANYTHING. JW
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Date: Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 01:57:08 (EST)
Poster: great post
Email: bb
To: Nigel
Subject: nigel (Re: Knowledge and Evolution)
Message:
I'll have to reread that one tomorrow, earlier.
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Date: Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 15:00:33 (EST)
Poster: bftb
Email:
To: Nigel
Subject: Re: Knowledge and Evolution
Message:
Does any premie or ex-premie out there remember Mr Lotus-feet ever saying anything about evolution by natural selection and how it might relate to Knowledge and the role of the 'Perfect' Master? (I'm not interested in discussing evolution versus 'Creationism' - if you don't accept the overwhelming evidence in support of Darwinian theory then you have a problem I probably can't help you with) I seem to remember Big M once speaking favourably of David Attenborough's TV series 'Life on Earth', but without making any references to any of its theoretical implications. For the most part, as I recall, Maharaj ji's repeated references to 'The Creator' who put human beings on planet Earth FOR A PURPOSE (ie., to realise Knowledge, go to festivals, buy videos, etc.) seem to place him firmly in the Creationist camp. The fact of evolution raises some interesting questions: Our near-relative (though, it seems, a separate species) Neanderthal Man became extinct in the fairly recent past. What was the Creator's purpose in creating him/her? Or did they have their own Living Perfect Neanderthal who led them all to everlasting bliss? (Maybe he told them not to have children, which is why they became extinct...) Or go back sixty million years to when our own ancestors resembled the modern tree-shrew. Did we all pranam to a big chief rodent? When did we stop being mere animals, and become 'the crown of creation' instead - with a separate divine destiny from that of the 'lesser' beings? And on whose authority should we accept it that human beings are especially privileged in this respect? Shri Hans, I assume, had a guru who had a guru before him, who would have lived before Darwin, and I suspect the philosophical worldview inherited by successive gurus in this chain hasn't changed one iota since the Middle Ages (or the Indian equivalent). Belief in Karma, reincarnation, devotion to the master, prashad, holy water etc., go back centuries, and are part of a pre-scientific cosmology. Some of it, I daresay, might even be superstitious nonsense (understatement of the century?) Has GMJ offered any explanations on reconciling modern biology to ancient traditions? Is reincarnation in or out? - etc, etc... I can understand why some people find scientific explanations for complex human phenomena such as consciousness unsatisfying, but far less satisfying are the teachings of people whose own message ignores science altogether and doesn't even attempt to bind together differing approaches to the study of reality. I would have thought that truth is truth, however you choose to look at it. Western premies tend to be well educated. Don't they deserve answers to these sorts of question? (Probably not, otherwise they would DEMAND answers to these sorts of question). Best wishes Does creation evolve?Can one believe in both evolution and a conscious creator/original spark behind all evolving existence?Endless debate. As far as M being a Creationist or Darwinist I don't know.I personally never heard him say anything beyond one comment: I remember his comment because before I heard him say it I (and i'm sure many if not most people)had the exact same thought. It was from a program from the late 80's and was the first video i'd seen of M.While pondering the many inanities of humans and the world that we've built,he says(again I'm paraphrasing from memory-possibly not exact quote)"millions of years of evolution has lead to this?" That's all i can remember him saying about evolution in the Darwinist sense.He did seem to use the word evolve alot but in reference to evolving in your understanding of knowledge.There's also a video titled "Evolution" that if i'm not mistaken traces the 'evolution' of DLM/EV/M.
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Date: Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 23:20:13 (EST)
Poster: X
Email:
To: Nigel
Subject: Re: Knowledge and Evolution
Message:
Do you want answers to the BIG questions or the truth?
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Date: Wed, Dec 24, 1997 at 19:01:16 (EST)
Poster: Nigel
Email:
To: X
Subject: Re: Knowledge and Evolution
Message:
Do you want answers to the BIG questions or the truth? Could you explain the difference please? Maharaj ji is 'all-knowing' - or so we used to sing. There's been precious little evidence so far. Best wishes, whoever you are.
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Date: Mon, Dec 22, 1997 at 14:01:57 (EST)
Poster: Nigel
Email: Nlonghurst@aol.co.uk
To: Everyone
Subject: At the feet of the autocrat
Message:
Towards the end of a recent thread, Mili wrote: >'Gosh, Nigel, won't you be late for your National Front meeting?' Assuming this to be a friendly joke, I replied: 'Not me mate, I'd look a right prat in jackboots...' But either the posting fell into a black hole, or the Mind Police intercepted. Either way, Mili has set me thinking of an interesting parallel. I suspect many people reading this thread (is anybody read this thread? - Oh, HI PREM PAL!) will not know who the National Front are - or WERE - I should say. They were, in fact, an ultra-right wing, ultra-nationalistic political party in the UK, whose main policy platform was enforced 'repatriation' for ethnic minorities (In spite of the fact that the British population is nothing but ethnic minorities, if you count all those Angles, Saxons, Jutes, Celts, Vikings and Normans etc.). They've now reformed as the 'National Democrats' in a bid to become more electable, I suspect. From reading their web page, however, it looks like they're still trotting out the usual racist stuff. But fascism, whether in 30's Italy and Germany, the Stalinist Soviet era, Mao's China, Kim Il Sung's Korea or in its more recent manifestations in any number of Middle Eastern, African or South American military dictatorships, tends always to show a number of universal characeristics. (a) Totalitarian parties like to have a charismatic leader (b) That leader is frequently accorded God-like devotion (b) That leader holds absolute power within the movement (c) No mechanisms exist to change the internal power structure of that movement (d) It is difficult to question the judgement of the leader and remain within the movement (e) Leaving the movement, while not impossible, can at the very least lead to social ostracism (f) Contrary to popular belief, when power is siezed by such a party, their success in ruling a country of millions of ordinary decent people has less to do with obedience through fear, than a far more subtle and insidious process that involves conformity and compliance. Party membership will remain voluntary rather than compulsory, for instance. For as long as people believe they're acting of their own free will they are far less likely to object to their leader's wishes, and may even start to engage in activities they find personally abhorrent. If the new believer finds that the leader has personal characteristics they are not automatically attracted to, this is far less important than the personal qualities of friends and acquaintances who may have already joined the movement. That such phenomena appear to be universal, whether the dictatorship is of the political left or right, suggests that politics itself is unimportant. Instead there is some sort of innate psychological need among people to find themselves a shared focus and direction, and, what with humans being social animals, it seems that when such a focus can be shared with thousands of others, it will have a very special appeal. Very dangerous too, if history is anything to go by. Any of this sound familiar? PS> Ok, so I told Maharaj ji to 'f*** off', just the once. (It felt kind of good). I've also chanted 'Bhole Shri Satguru Dev, Maharaj ki jai' somewhere between one and two thousand times (even though I still don't know what it means!). So maybe I'm still a few blessings in credit. Best wishes
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Date: Mon, Dec 22, 1997 at 15:15:46 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Nigel
Subject: Re: At the feet of the autocrat
Message:
Then I am sure that in your tolerant, liberal democracy you will find allowance for some people who like to do meditation and see their Guru once a year.
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Date: Mon, Dec 22, 1997 at 23:44:27 (EST)
Poster: Q
Email: continuum@space.net
To: Mili
Subject: Re: At the feet of the autocrat
Message:
Then I am sure that in your tolerant, liberal democracy you will find allowance for some people who like to do meditation and see their Guru once a year.But there's always some loser who wants to spoil everybody's fun. 
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Date: Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 01:53:15 (EST)
Poster: to
Email: bb
To: Q
Subject: Qless (Re: At the feet of the autocrat)
Message:
nobody is forceing you to be here and have your fun spoiled
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Date: Wed, Dec 24, 1997 at 19:33:34 (EST)
Poster: Nigel
Email: N_Craig@msn.co.uk
To: Mili
Subject: Re: At the feet of the autocrat
Message:
Then I am sure that in your tolerant, liberal democracy you will find allowance for some people who like to do meditation and see their Guru once a year. In Nigel's New Model Republic, everybody will be permitted to waste their money however they like. Nobody, though, will be permitted to run a multi-million dollar business that disguises itself as a charity. I enjoy the odd spot of meditation myself. The techniques don't belong to GMJ you know... Best wishes
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Date: Thurs, Dec 25, 1997 at 13:52:30 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Nigel
Subject: Re: At the feet of the autocrat
Message:
Then I am sure that in your tolerant, liberal democracy you will find allowance for some people who like to do meditation and see their Guru once a year. In Nigel's New Model Republic, everybody will be permitted to waste their money however they like. Nobody, though, will be permitted to run a multi-million dollar business that disguises itself as a charity. I enjoy the odd spot of meditation myself. The techniques don't belong to GMJ you know... Best wishes You know - I don't get it. On one hand you state that he is making these fantastic millions, and on the other, you say that EV is heavily in debt. So what's going on then, in fact? Is all the other stuff on David's site as accurate as that? Get your act together if you want to be credible, guys. - Mili
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Date: Fri, Dec 26, 1997 at 05:34:50 (EST)
Poster: Mr Ex
Email:
To: Mili
Subject: Re: At the feet of the autocrat
Message:
>You know - I don't get it. On one hand you state that he is >making these fantastic millions, and on the other, you say >that EV is heavily in debt. So what's going on then, in fact? >Is all the other stuff on David's site as accurate as that? >Get your act together if you want to be credible, guys. >- Mili Well, it looks like you’re not very familiar with bookkeeping and accounting. Elan Vital Inc. charges local Elan Vital (in the various countries)for amounts they are not able to pay. Local EV thus go into debts to pay their invoices. Elan Vital Inc. is charged by companies OWNED by Mr PPR and his family for amounts it cannot pay : thus EV Inc. makes debts in order to pay these invoices. This is why anf how Elan Vital (and Elan Vital Foundation through the same process) is in huge debts, whilst Mr PPR and his family make millions.
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Date: Fri, Dec 26, 1997 at 06:22:22 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Mr Ex
Subject: Re: At the feet of the autocrat
Message:
>You know - I don't get it. On one hand you state that he is >making these fantastic millions, and on the other, you say >that EV is heavily in debt. So what's going on then, in fact? >Is all the other stuff on David's site as accurate as that? >Get your act together if you want to be credible, guys. >- Mili Well, it looks like you’re not very familiar with bookkeeping and accounting. Elan Vital Inc. charges local Elan Vital (in the various countries)for amounts they are not able to pay. Local EV thus go into debts to pay their invoices. Elan Vital Inc. is charged by companies OWNED by Mr PPR and his family for amounts it cannot pay : thus EV Inc. makes debts in order to pay these invoices. This is why anf how Elan Vital (and Elan Vital Foundation through the same process) is in huge debts, whilst Mr PPR and his family make millions. So, in fact EV (a registered charity) pays M for his expert consulting services. What's wrong with that?
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Date: Fri, Dec 26, 1997 at 09:41:20 (EST)
Poster: Mr Ex
Email:
To: Mili
Subject: Re: At the feet of the autocrat
Message:
>So, in fact EV (a registered charity) pays M for his expert consulting services. >What's wrong with that? You’re exactly to the point : This is exactly what a US registered charity is NOT supposed to do ! (according to the US law) Of course Mr PPR and his lawyers know it very well. To hide this as well as possible, they use series of private companies for various services. EV Inc. ‘gives’ money to EV Foundation which is not supposed to own anything (like a 25 million $ jet). Thus EV Foundation ‘rents’ an airplane to a private company. It just so happens that this company is owned by Mr PPR’s family ! Most of the money given to EVF is used to buy this jet owned by Mr PPR (pay for the loans). Some of the money is used to pay for the fuel and the maintenance of the airplane, which is legal of course. This way (as well as for other companies owned by Mr PPR, production company, etc) ‘gifts’ made to EV Inc. are used to buy Mr Rawat’s private jet. This is considered as a CRIME for US law. There is nothing wrong in the fact that a guru (or anybody) owns a private jet. What’s terribly wrong is the way it’s done. Mr Rawat should pay his taxes, like you and me, and Elan Vital Inc. should not be a charity. Anybody wouldn’t object anything. But you can imagine that Mr Rawat’s profit would be considerably diminished, which is not acceptable for him. All the ‘gifts’ together are not enough these days to cover his fabulous expenses, how could he possibly pay taxes ! I can understand this. I suppose US government doesn’t. PAM say that God shouldn’t pay taxes, I think it’s fallacious for two reasons : 1/ he is no God 2/ IRS does not accept that category of tax payer.
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Date: Fri, Dec 26, 1997 at 10:39:51 (EST)
Poster: Mr Ex
Email:
To: Mili
Subject: Re: At the feet of the autocrat
Message:
Now that tax-cheating business goes even far beyond Mr PPR and Elan Vital. Most of the highly involved premies behave this way : how could they pay their own taxes, when all their money goes into flying to all these place attending Maharaji’s programs, supporting him, donating for the G4, doing service for months at the residence, etc. Many of them are in debts too. As you can imagine, they don’t have a dime left ! For most of them. At least there are some intelligent people left, that’s why I think there is some hope. For that very reason, many premies are in illegal situations. God is illegal, so are his devotees. Stupid reasoning I agree. Some I know have been for decades ! You can imagine their anxiety (some are still conscious). Many of them run illegal businesses : they say they have no other choice ! This is what makes them find their senses back most of the time I guess. Some couldn’t face very difficult financial issues and committed suicide ...... Who is responsible ? Of course these people won’t accuse (nor do I) Maharaji for the fact they are in an illegal situation. They will accuse their own foolishness.
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Date: Fri, Dec 26, 1997 at 13:07:54 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Mr Ex
Subject: Re: At the feet of the autocrat
Message:
Well, Mr.Ex - if all this is on the level, I agree, even God should pay taxes. However, I very much doubt that M would jeopardize his mission in such a way. Fair enough? All the premies I know live quite normal lives - work, have families, and are well integrated in the society. Even a guy that I knew who used to be a bum has recently got a job as a rail track inspector. He just walks along the railway lines and makes sure that everything is O.K. Our community coordinator recently got her Masters' degree in biology at the university here. I teach computer literacy classes. Some of the premies in a neighboring town run a videotheque (guess what they do in their spare time!) Some other premies in that town run a successful advertising agency. I could give you more examples, but I don't want to use up too much bandwidth on this crowded forum. Have fun!
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Date: Fri, Dec 26, 1997 at 15:33:12 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Mr Ex
Subject: Re: At the feet of the autocrat
Message:
One thing puzzles me, though - you see, I worked in the UNICEF Office for Croatia for four years during the war here, and we were hiring consultants and engaging subcontractors like anything! UNICEF is also a registered charity organization, both in the States and abroad.
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Date: Fri, Dec 26, 1997 at 21:01:34 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: Mili
Subject: Re: At the feet of the autocrat
Message:
Mili, if someone told you some jelly beans were green, you wouldn't get far refuting the point by pointing to the red ones. I know the point's obvious. Too obvious for words, really. But why do you argue so?
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Date: Sat, Dec 27, 1997 at 06:03:15 (EST)
Poster: Mr Ex
Email:
To: Mili
Subject: Invitation to participate (Re: At the feet of the autocrat)
Message:
My dear Mili, If you really want to help your Lord spreading his wonderful knowledge throughout Croatia and neighborhood, I think you should attend a service meeting after one of the coming international event. Get in touch with your national contact/coordinator, express him your wish to support propagation and to be a part of one of these ‘projects’ you heard about. One of these businesses whose profits get ‘directly’ to Maharaji, you know. PLEASE DO SO. You will be invited to one of these meetings very likely. You will then see how most of the ‘active’ premies are involved in various businesses that you might find dangerous for Maharaji’s mission. If you have questions regarding that issue, ask them during the meeting : you might get very surprising answers. As you are very intelligent and you might not agree with some of these responsible’s positions, please try to discuss it with them. Please come back after this meeting and tell us about what you’ve heard and what you think about all this! Otherwise I’m afraid you might stay very far away from reality. You could also write an interesting report and post it, I’m sure lots of exs and current premies will be delighted. Take also that opportunity to share with these premies who have been involved in these ‘projects’ for some time, and try to get some feedback about their personal lives. You might be shocked. There is nothing like direct experience.
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Date: Sat, Dec 27, 1997 at 08:38:58 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Mr Ex
Subject: Re: Invitation to participate (Re: At the feet of the autocrat)
Message:
My dear Mili, If you really want to help your Lord spreading his wonderful knowledge throughout Croatia and neighborhood, I think you should attend a service meeting after one of the coming international event. Get in touch with your national contact/coordinator, express him your wish to support propagation and to be a part of one of these ‘projects’ you heard about. One of these businesses whose profits get ‘directly’ to Maharaji, you know. PLEASE DO SO. You will be invited to one of these meetings very likely. You will then see how most of the ‘active’ premies are involved in various businesses that you might find dangerous for Maharaji’s mission. If you have questions regarding that issue, ask them during the meeting : you might get very surprising answers. As you are very intelligent and you might not agree with some of these responsible’s positions, please try to discuss it with them. Please come back after this meeting and tell us about what you’ve heard and what you think about all this! Otherwise I’m afraid you might stay very far away from reality. You could also write an interesting report and post it, I’m sure lots of exs and current premies will be delighted. Take also that opportunity to share with these premies who have been involved in these ‘projects’ for some time, and try to get some feedback about their personal lives. You might be shocked. There is nothing like direct experience. Well, thanks for the incentive - but I really resent your bias in suggesting what kind of conclusions I might reach.
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Date: Mon, Dec 22, 1997 at 10:32:41 (EST)
Poster: Mr Ex
Email:
To: Ex and Antis
Subject: Some Homework
Message:
I really enjoyed lots of comments made here by some of my ‘exs‘ friends. All these discussions, etc. It’s been very helpful for me, and from what I red in many posts, also very helpful for many people here. The only problem with this forum is that a lot of these interesting stuff are deep down in the depth of the hard disk of Paradise-serv.com I’m sure that all those premies trying to protect BigM are very happy with this. My feeling is that some of these very good materials could be gathered, maybe in different files, like ‘What Mr JW (or Katie, or David, etc) thinks about Maharaji’s cult’. We could maybe also gather some posts around some issues like : BigM’s lifestyle Darshan, Pranam, Toe-Kissing Deception Unofficial PR information The trap of the videos. ...... I don’t know. Maybe we could start with some issues that have already been addressed a lot in this forum, and update them in the future. Have these documents available on the web-site ? What do you think ? This is definitely an attack on Mr PPR. And it will be very helpful for many people wandering what other people’s experience have been ...... and a good introduction to the forum’s discussions. And also helpful maybe for people who would like to attack BigM and his organizations on a legal level, which is also an important issue for me. (I don’t expect Mili, OP or any premie to love this idea. It’s not an attack against them of course. The reality is that for me and many others BigM’s business must cease).
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Date: Mon, Dec 22, 1997 at 11:14:49 (EST)
Poster: John K.
Email:
To: Mr Ex
Subject: Re: Some Homework
Message:
I agree...wholeheartedly Welll, there's no doubt this is great for a here and now (real time) discussion but not so good for reference material. So, who wants the job of compiling etc.? If I can help in any way, I'd be willing, but so far I have been unable to get into the archives at all.
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Date: Mon, Dec 22, 1997 at 11:49:46 (EST)
Poster: d@vid
Email: d@vid
To: John K.
Subject: Re: Some Homework
Message:
John wrote about the possibilty of getting some good archive material: I agree... wholeheartedly. Well, there's no doubt this is great for a here and now (real time) discussion but not so good for reference material. So, who wants the job of compiling etc.? If I can help in any way, I'd be willing, but so far I have been unable to get into the archives at all. John, I've tried to persuade Anon the Angry Archiver to relink the archives but I get the feeling he's gone back on the toe-kissing game. It's a pity because there was some good stuff there. If you would like to compile the archives from this point on, I'd be happy to put them on the site. What do you say? D@vid
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Date: Mon, Dec 22, 1997 at 13:06:24 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Mr Ex
Subject: Re: Some Homework
Message:
I really enjoyed lots of comments made here by some of my ‘exs‘ friends. All these discussions, etc. It’s been very helpful for me, and from what I red in many posts, also very helpful for many people here. The only problem with this forum is that a lot of these interesting stuff are deep down in the depth of the hard disk of Paradise-serv.com I’m sure that all those premies trying to protect BigM are very happy with this. My feeling is that some of these very good materials could be gathered, maybe in different files, like ‘What Mr JW (or Katie, or David, etc) thinks about Maharaji’s cult’. We could maybe also gather some posts around some issues like : BigM’s lifestyle Darshan, Pranam, Toe-Kissing Deception Unofficial PR information The trap of the videos. ...... I don’t know. Maybe we could start with some issues that have already been addressed a lot in this forum, and update them in the future. Have these documents available on the web-site ? What do you think ? This is definitely an attack on Mr PPR. And it will be very helpful for many people wandering what other people’s experience have been ...... and a good introduction to the forum’s discussions. And also helpful maybe for people who would like to attack BigM and his organizations on a legal level, which is also an important issue for me. (I don’t expect Mili, OP or any premie to love this idea. It’s not an attack against them of course. The reality is that for me and many others BigM’s business must cease). The thing is, we have a RIGHT to a Guru if we want one. You can't take that right away from us. You don't have to follow him if you don't want to. I am sure it could be legally phrased, too. - Mili
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Date: Mon, Dec 22, 1997 at 13:35:03 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email: joger02@aol.com
To: d@vid
Subject: Re: Some Homework
Message:
John wrote about the possibilty of getting some good archive material: I agree... wholeheartedly. Well, there's no doubt this is great for a here and now (real time) discussion but not so good for reference material. So, who wants the job of compiling etc.? If I can help in any way, I'd be willing, but so far I have been unable to get into the archives at all. John, I've tried to persuade Anon the Angry Archiver to relink the archives but I get the feeling he's gone back on the toe-kissing game. It's a pity because there was some good stuff there. If you would like to compile the archives from this point on, I'd be happy to put them on the site. What do you say? D@vid David, what is involved in compiling the archives? I agree Anon did a good job on the digest he did, but how does one physically reorganize the posts? Also, I think the archives should be put on the site, but they would have to be indexed in some way so they are accessible to people who are interested in certain topics.
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Date: Mon, Dec 22, 1997 at 16:35:38 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email:
To: John K.
Subject: Re: Some Homework (to John K) (Re: Some Homework)
Message:
I agree...wholeheartedly Welll, there's no doubt this is great for a here and now (real time) discussion but not so good for reference material. So, who wants the job of compiling etc.? If I can help in any way, I'd be willing, but so far I have been unable to get into the archives at all. John - when you say you cannot get into the archives - are you talking about the archived discussions (like this one) or the archive digests (which were arranged by topic, and which were really interesting. I wish now that I had downloaded them)? The archive digests are apparently gone forever, unfortunately. The actual archived discussions take a long time to download, also, for some reason, trying to open the very first archived forum (#1) just throws you back to the current one (this one). (Can anybody fix this?) If you want to look at some of the old discussions try opening #2 or another one that's not number 1. I have been able to do this lately, so they are still functional.
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Date: Mon, Dec 22, 1997 at 17:33:41 (EST)
Poster: D@vid
Email: d@vid
To: Mili
Subject: Re: Some Homework
Message:
Masher moaned melodramatically: The thing is, we have a RIGHT to a Guru if we want one. You can't take that right away from us. You don't have to follow him if you don't want to. There, there Masher. Don't be afraid. You can have your guru. If you get comfort from kissing the toes of Captain Rawat, then far be it from us to mock the afflicted. D@vid (Well we might mock just a little!-)
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Date: Mon, Dec 22, 1997 at 22:54:28 (EST)
Poster: Q
Email:
To: Mili
Subject: Re: Some Homework
Message:
I shouldn't worry - these morons will never get anything together. __
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Date: Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 02:34:47 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Q
Subject: Re: Some Homework
Message:
I shouldn't worry - these morons will never get anything together. __ I don't worry at all - American (and other) laws are very strict about those who inflame religious hatred and mock the beliefs and practices of others. These guys could already be serving some heavy time as it is.
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Date: Tues, Dec 23, 1997 at 12:57:47 (EST)
Poster: JohnK
Email:
To: Katie
Subject: Re: Some Homework (to John K) (Re: Some Homework)
Message:
Katie: I am able to get to all the messages you know 'click here to view all messages'. I am unable to get into The ARchives - the big file cabinet, that's on another page. Actually I havent tried in a few weeks, I don't really have time to keep up with all the threads happening, so I don't know how I'd be able to give much time to sorting out the old threads.
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