|
Ex-Premie.Org |
Forum II Archive #
2 |
From:
Dec 9, 1997 |
To:
Dec 30, 1997 |
Page:
4
Of:
5 |
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d@vid -:- Come back Harlan... -:- Wed, Dec 17, 1997 at 15:16:31 (EST)
___d@vid -:- Help... -:- Wed, Dec 17, 1997 at 15:28:55 (EST)
___CD -:- Re: Help... -:- Wed, Dec 17, 1997 at 16:15:00 (EST)
___John K. -:- Re: Help... -:- Wed, Dec 17, 1997 at 16:26:46 (EST)
___Bobby -:- Re: Help... -:- Wed, Dec 17, 1997 at 18:30:06 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: Help... -:- Thurs, Dec 18, 1997 at 01:41:44 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: Help... -:- Thurs, Dec 18, 1997 at 12:21:53 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: Help... -:- Thurs, Dec 18, 1997 at 12:38:41 (EST)
___CD -:- Re: Help... -:- Thurs, Dec 18, 1997 at 15:34:50 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: Help... -:- Thurs, Dec 18, 1997 at 16:48:49 (EST)
___d@vid -:- Re: Help... -:- Thurs, Dec 18, 1997 at 16:53:30 (EST)
___d@vid -:- Re: Help... -:- Thurs, Dec 18, 1997 at 17:09:50 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: Help... -:- Thurs, Dec 18, 1997 at 17:59:51 (EST)
___Annie -:- Re: Help... -:- Thurs, Dec 18, 1997 at 19:46:29 (EST)
___Michael -:- Re: Help... -:- Thurs, Dec 18, 1997 at 20:02:48 (EST)
___Brian -:- Re: Help... -:- Thurs, Dec 18, 1997 at 22:34:51 (EST)
___Mr Ex -:- Re: Help... -:- Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 06:20:24 (EST)
___bill burke, -:- unwilling to think for himself -:- Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 21:11:26 (EST)
___annie -:- you are thinking for yourself -:- Sat, Dec 20, 1997 at 00:06:03 (EST)
___St. -:- Annie of the beach -:- Sat, Dec 20, 1997 at 10:33:28 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: Annie of the beach -:- Sat, Dec 20, 1997 at 10:49:06 (EST)
___CD -:- Billy Bong -:- Sat, Dec 20, 1997 at 14:38:38 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: Billy Bong -:- Sat, Dec 20, 1997 at 15:00:15 (EST)
John K. -:- Spread the K -:- Wed, Dec 17, 1997 at 14:09:40 (EST)
___Brian -:- Re: Spread the K -:- Thurs, Dec 18, 1997 at 00:14:40 (EST)
___Sir David -:- Re: Spread the K -:- Thurs, Dec 18, 1997 at 00:36:28 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: Spread the K -:- Thurs, Dec 18, 1997 at 06:21:56 (EST)
___Brian -:- Re: Spread the K -:- Thurs, Dec 18, 1997 at 08:08:37 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: Spread the K -:- Thurs, Dec 18, 1997 at 09:30:42 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: Spread the K -:- Thurs, Dec 18, 1997 at 09:45:23 (EST)
___Mr Ex -:- Re: Spread the K -:- Thurs, Dec 18, 1997 at 09:47:05 (EST)
___A -:- Re: Spread the K -:- Thurs, Dec 18, 1997 at 10:35:28 (EST)
___Mr Ex -:- Re: Spread the K -:- Thurs, Dec 18, 1997 at 12:16:39 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: Spread the K -:- Thurs, Dec 18, 1997 at 12:56:06 (EST)
___Brian -:- Re: Spread the K -:- Thurs, Dec 18, 1997 at 16:26:41 (EST)
___Brian -:- Re: Spread the K -:- Thurs, Dec 18, 1997 at 16:45:30 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: Spread the K -:- Thurs, Dec 18, 1997 at 18:15:33 (EST)
___op -:- Re: Spread the K -:- Thurs, Dec 18, 1997 at 19:18:40 (EST)
___op -:- Re: Spread the K -:- Thurs, Dec 18, 1997 at 19:30:17 (EST)
___Annie -:- Re: Spread the K -:- Thurs, Dec 18, 1997 at 20:12:22 (EST)
___XXX -:- Re: Spread the K -:- Thurs, Dec 18, 1997 at 23:58:32 (EST)
___John K. -:- Re: Spread the K -:- Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 10:36:45 (EST)
___Mr Ex -:- Re: Spread the K -:- Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 11:12:12 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: Spread the K -:- Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 11:54:44 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: Spread the K -:- Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 14:58:36 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: Spread the K -:- Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 15:41:11 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: Spread the K -:- Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 16:10:31 (EST)
Mr Ex -:- Some new genuine documents -:- Wed, Dec 17, 1997 at 10:33:48 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: Some new genuine documents -:- Wed, Dec 17, 1997 at 11:48:13 (EST)
___Mr Ex -:- Re: Some new genuine documents -:- Wed, Dec 17, 1997 at 12:07:04 (EST)
___John K. -:- Re: Some new genuine documents -:- Wed, Dec 17, 1997 at 13:18:04 (EST)
___Mr Ex -:- Re: Some new genuine documents -:- Wed, Dec 17, 1997 at 13:35:36 (EST)
___Brian -:- Re: Some new genuine documents -:- Wed, Dec 17, 1997 at 23:56:12 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: Some new genuine documents -:- Thurs, Dec 18, 1997 at 01:33:36 (EST)
___Sir David -:- Re: Some new genuine documents -:- Thurs, Dec 18, 1997 at 07:22:11 (EST)
___Mr Ex -:- Re: Some new genuine documents -:- Thurs, Dec 18, 1997 at 09:50:47 (EST)
___Mr Ex -:- He said he is Hari! -:- Thurs, Dec 18, 1997 at 10:15:00 (EST)
___Mike -:- Re: Some new genuine documents -:- Thurs, Dec 18, 1997 at 10:45:22 (EST)
___A -:- Re: He said he is Hari! -:- Thurs, Dec 18, 1997 at 10:55:22 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: Some new genuine documents -:- Thurs, Dec 18, 1997 at 12:03:26 (EST)
___Mr Ex -:- Re: He said he is Hari! -:- Thurs, Dec 18, 1997 at 12:10:04 (EST)
___A -:- Re: He said he is Hari! -:- Thurs, Dec 18, 1997 at 12:15:37 (EST)
___Rob -:- Re: He said he is Hari! -:- Thurs, Dec 18, 1997 at 13:23:38 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: He said he is Hari! -:- Thurs, Dec 18, 1997 at 13:25:30 (EST)
___Rob -:- Re: He said he is Hari! -:- Thurs, Dec 18, 1997 at 13:34:44 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: He said he is Hari! -:- Thurs, Dec 18, 1997 at 15:11:06 (EST)
___Rob -:- Re: He said he is Hari! -:- Thurs, Dec 18, 1997 at 16:08:22 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: He said he is Hari! -:- Thurs, Dec 18, 1997 at 17:19:01 (EST)
___CD -:- Re: Some new genuine documents -:- Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 00:22:24 (EST)
___Brian -:- Re: Some new genuine documents -:- Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 07:45:24 (EST)
___Rob -:- Re: He said he is Hari! -:- Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 13:29:14 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: He said he is Hari! -:- Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 14:21:51 (EST)
___He said he is the -:- supreme being -:- Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 14:32:28 (EST)
___the path to glory? is littered -:- with innocents that got fucked over. -:- Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 21:41:03 (EST)
___CD -:- Re: with innocents that got fucked over. -:- Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 22:45:00 (EST)
___op -:- Re: Some new genuine documents -:- Sat, Dec 20, 1997 at 10:43:22 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: He said he is Hari! -:- Thurs, Dec 25, 1997 at 03:13:54 (EST)
JW -:- GMJ -- Enjoy Your Life -:- Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 15:31:01 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: GMJ -- Enjoy Your Life -:- Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 16:05:36 (EST)
___John K. -:- Re: GMJ -- Enjoy Your Life -:- Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 16:32:59 (EST)
___op -:- Re: GMJ -- Enjoy Your Life -:- Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 16:47:33 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: GMJ -- Enjoy Your Life -:- Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 16:54:28 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: GMJ -- Enjoy Your Life -:- Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 17:41:34 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: GMJ -- Enjoy Your Life -:- Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 17:41:45 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: GMJ -- Enjoy Your Life -:- Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 17:43:28 (EST)
___David -:- Re: GMJ -- Enjoy Your Life -:- Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 18:02:19 (EST)
___odl -:- Re: oh dear, shades of catholicism -:- Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 18:14:04 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: oh dear, shades of catholicism -:- Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 18:34:39 (EST)
___David -:- Re: oh dear, shades of catholicism -:- Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 18:49:18 (EST)
___op -:- Re: oh dear, shades of obscure references -:- Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 18:54:10 (EST)
___Rick -:- Re: GMJ -- Enjoy Your Life -:- Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 19:58:24 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: oh dear, shades of obscure references -:- Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 20:09:11 (EST)
___Michael -:- Re: GMJ -- Enjoy Your Life -:- Wed, Dec 17, 1997 at 00:03:18 (EST)
___CD -:- Re: GMJ -- Enjoy Your Life -:- Wed, Dec 17, 1997 at 00:57:39 (EST)
___Annie -:- never could climb on the dustpan -:- Wed, Dec 17, 1997 at 03:18:54 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: never could climb on the dustpan -:- Wed, Dec 17, 1997 at 06:33:51 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: GMJ -- Enjoy Your Life -:- Wed, Dec 17, 1997 at 11:21:51 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: never could climb on the dustpan -:- Wed, Dec 17, 1997 at 11:46:41 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: never could climb on the dustpan -:- Wed, Dec 17, 1997 at 11:52:32 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: never could climb on the dustpan -:- Wed, Dec 17, 1997 at 13:53:58 (EST)
___Rob -:- Re: never could climb on the dustpan -:- Wed, Dec 17, 1997 at 14:04:06 (EST)
___op -:- Re: now I do apologize -:- Wed, Dec 17, 1997 at 18:39:47 (EST)
___a -:- Re: never could climb on the dustpan -:- Wed, Dec 17, 1997 at 21:56:05 (EST)
___op -:- Re: never could climb on the dustpan -:- Thurs, Dec 18, 1997 at 03:28:53 (EST)
___Rob -:- Re: never could climb on the dustpan -:- Thurs, Dec 18, 1997 at 12:40:34 (EST)
David -:- Blind Bob... -:- Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 05:07:25 (EST)
___Annie -:- Blind ridiculing the blind -:- Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 06:28:32 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: Blind ridiculing the blind -:- Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 09:19:40 (EST)
___Rob Vanderkam -:- Re: Blind ridiculing the blind -:- Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 10:14:58 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: Blind ridiculing the blind -:- Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 12:53:24 (EST)
___Annie -:- Re: Blind ridiculing the blind -:- Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 13:30:16 (EST)
___Rick -:- Re: Blind ridiculing the blind -:- Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 13:47:33 (EST)
___Rick -:- Re: Blind ridiculing the blind -:- Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 13:50:11 (EST)
___Annie -:- Re: Blind ridiculing the blind -:- Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 13:58:53 (EST)
___Annie -:- Re: Blind ridiculing the blind -:- Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 14:07:44 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: Blind ridiculing the blind -:- Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 14:21:19 (EST)
___A -:- Re: Blind ridiculing the blind -:- Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 14:31:49 (EST)
___Rick -:- Re: Blind ridiculing the blind -:- Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 14:38:20 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: Blind ridiculing the blind -:- Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 14:42:43 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: Blind ridiculing the blind -:- Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 14:46:29 (EST)
___op -:- Re: Blind ridiculing the blind -:- Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 15:52:10 (EST)
___David -:- Re: Blind anger? -:- Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 16:09:16 (EST)
___david -:- Re: Blind ridiculing the blind -:- Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 16:23:44 (EST)
___odl -:- Re: Blind ridiculing the blind -:- Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 16:41:34 (EST)
___Katie -:- To Rob -:- Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 16:44:08 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: Blind ridiculing the blind -:- Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 16:44:19 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: Blind ridiculing the blind -:- Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 16:44:44 (EST)
___david -:- Re: Blind ridiculing the blind -:- Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 16:50:57 (EST)
___David -:- Re: Blind ridiculing the blind -:- Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 17:02:50 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: Blind ridiculing the blind -:- Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 17:09:49 (EST)
___David -:- Re: Blind ridiculing the blind -:- Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 17:50:24 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: Blind ridiculing the blind -:- Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 18:04:29 (EST)
___Y -:- Re: Blind ridiculing the blind -:- Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 18:13:36 (EST)
___odl -:- Re: Blind ridiculing the blind -:- Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 18:40:54 (EST)
___David -:- Re: Blind ridiculing the blind -:- Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 18:41:15 (EST)
___Katie - partially off topic -:- to David -:- Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 18:49:56 (EST)
___David -:- Re: to David -:- Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 19:01:25 (EST)
___Rob -:- Re: Blind ridiculing the blind -:- Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 19:16:11 (EST)
___Rob -:- Re: To Rob -:- Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 19:20:14 (EST)
___Rick -:- Re: Blind ridiculing the blind -:- Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 19:22:59 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: Blind ridiculing the blind -:- Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 19:55:53 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: To Rob (copy of lower message) -:- Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 20:05:25 (EST)
___A -:- Re: Blind ridiculing the fat -:- Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 23:39:59 (EST)
___D@vid -:- Re: Blind ridiculing the fat -:- Wed, Dec 17, 1997 at 03:39:35 (EST)
Annie -:- No Hidden Agenda -:- Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 03:45:05 (EST)
___Brian -:- Re: No Hidden Agenda -:- Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 07:21:13 (EST)
Mike -:- Imagine This -:- Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 00:03:36 (EST)
___CD -:- Re: Imagine This -:- Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 00:12:03 (EST)
___Sir David -:- Re: Imagine This -:- Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 05:45:59 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: Imagine This -:- Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 06:25:27 (EST)
___Sir David -:- Re: Imagine This -:- Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 09:01:33 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: Imagine This -:- Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 11:15:57 (EST)
___Sir David -:- Re: Imagine This -:- Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 13:46:07 (EST)
Mili -:- Magic Bus -:- Mon, Dec 15, 1997 at 17:00:39 (EST)
___Sir David -:- Re: Magic Bus -:- Mon, Dec 15, 1997 at 21:29:58 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: Magic Bus -:- Mon, Dec 15, 1997 at 21:44:50 (EST)
___Sir David -:- Re: Magic Bus -:- Mon, Dec 15, 1997 at 22:46:15 (EST)
___Sir David -:- Re: Magic Bus -:- Mon, Dec 15, 1997 at 22:47:49 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: Magic Bus -:- Mon, Dec 15, 1997 at 23:43:17 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: Magic Bus -:- Mon, Dec 15, 1997 at 23:48:05 (EST)
David -:- Parlais Francais? -:- Mon, Dec 15, 1997 at 14:59:40 (EST)
___la vieille premie -:- Re: Parlais Francais? -:- Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 03:07:49 (EST)
___Mr Ex's translation -:- Re: Parlais Francais? -:- Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 05:42:35 (EST)
___John K. -:- Re: Parlais Francais? -:- Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 12:37:51 (EST)
___Jim Wannabee -:- Re: Parlais Francais? -:- Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 12:46:28 (EST)
___Annie -:- Alors parlons en justesse -:- Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 14:28:07 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: Alors parlons en justesse -:- Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 14:55:51 (EST)
___op -:- Re: Alors parlons en justesse -:- Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 15:33:43 (EST)
___A -:- Re: Alors parlons en justesse -:- Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 17:12:18 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: Alors parlons en justesse -:- Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 17:26:49 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: Alors parlons en justesse -:- Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 17:35:17 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: Alors parlons en justesse -:- Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 18:12:37 (EST)
___op -:- Re: Alors parlons en justesse -:- Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 19:10:25 (EST)
___ME ME ME ME ME -:- Re: Alors parlons en justesse -:- Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 23:50:03 (EST)
GMJ -:- Stop this fooling around -:- Mon, Dec 15, 1997 at 12:41:46 (EST)
___Sir David -:- Re: Stop this fooling around -:- Mon, Dec 15, 1997 at 14:29:26 (EST)
___Mr Ex's translattion -:- Re: Stop this fooling around -:- Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 05:41:39 (EST)
___No need to read above -:- Re: Stop this fooling around -:- Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 05:44:04 (EST)
___David -:- Re: Stop this fooling around -:- Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 16:42:11 (EST)
small -:- vacation -:- Mon, Dec 15, 1997 at 00:38:23 (EST)
___Sir David -:- Re: vacation -:- Mon, Dec 15, 1997 at 06:21:12 (EST)
___John K. -:- Re: vacation -:- Mon, Dec 15, 1997 at 12:49:10 (EST)
___Sorry about that -:- OP -:- Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 01:12:00 (EST)
___sorry about that -:- op part 2 -:- Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 01:47:51 (EST)
___op -:- Re: op part 2 -:- Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 03:43:46 (EST)
David -:- No shortage of suckers... -:- Sun, Dec 14, 1997 at 17:30:27 (EST)
___David -:- Re: P.S... -:- Sun, Dec 14, 1997 at 17:52:57 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: No shortage of suckers... -:- Sun, Dec 14, 1997 at 17:58:43 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: P.S... -:- Sun, Dec 14, 1997 at 18:08:42 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: No shortage of suckers... -:- Sun, Dec 14, 1997 at 18:20:34 (EST)
___Sir David -:- Re: No shortage of suckers... -:- Sun, Dec 14, 1997 at 20:59:10 (EST)
___Sir David -:- Re: P.S... -:- Sun, Dec 14, 1997 at 21:22:05 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: No shortage of suckers... -:- Sun, Dec 14, 1997 at 22:55:32 (EST)
___Frank -:- Frankly -:- Mon, Dec 15, 1997 at 02:08:24 (EST)
___What a load of crap. -:- Re: What a load of crap. -:- Mon, Dec 15, 1997 at 02:35:42 (EST)
___Frank -:- what went wrong? -:- Mon, Dec 15, 1997 at 02:41:52 (EST)
___Sir David -:- Re: What a load of crap. -:- Mon, Dec 15, 1997 at 05:57:45 (EST)
___Rob Vanderkam -:- Re: No shortage of suckers... -:- Mon, Dec 15, 1997 at 10:19:13 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: what went wrong? -:- Mon, Dec 15, 1997 at 12:09:28 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: No shortage of suckers... -:- Mon, Dec 15, 1997 at 12:21:42 (EST)
___Mr Ex -:- Re: what went wrong? -:- Mon, Dec 15, 1997 at 12:28:56 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: No shortage of suckers... -:- Mon, Dec 15, 1997 at 13:09:35 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: No shortage of suckers... -:- Mon, Dec 15, 1997 at 13:54:47 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: Frankly -:- Mon, Dec 15, 1997 at 14:49:20 (EST)
___Michael -:- Re: No shortage of suckers... -:- Mon, Dec 15, 1997 at 15:36:49 (EST)
___Rob Vanderkam -:- Re: No shortage of suckers... -:- Mon, Dec 15, 1997 at 16:00:57 (EST)
___Katie -:- Who is Pam? -:- Mon, Dec 15, 1997 at 16:38:31 (EST)
___JW -:- Robs Questions -:- Mon, Dec 15, 1997 at 17:44:52 (EST)
___David -:- Answer the question Rob... -:- Mon, Dec 15, 1997 at 17:51:13 (EST)
___Rob Vanderkam -:- Re: Answer the question Rob... -:- Mon, Dec 15, 1997 at 18:41:15 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: No shortage of suckers... -:- Mon, Dec 15, 1997 at 19:10:28 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: No shortage of suckers... -:- Mon, Dec 15, 1997 at 19:34:56 (EST)
___Katie -:- P.S. And one more thing... -:- Mon, Dec 15, 1997 at 19:43:34 (EST)
___Sir David -:- Re: Answer the question Rob... -:- Mon, Dec 15, 1997 at 21:01:22 (EST)
___Sir David -:- Re: P.S. And one more thing... -:- Mon, Dec 15, 1997 at 21:19:02 (EST)
___Brian -:- Re: Frankly -:- Mon, Dec 15, 1997 at 22:31:40 (EST)
___op -:- Re: Answer the question Rob... -:- Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 02:58:36 (EST)
___Brian -:- Re: Answer the question Rob... -:- Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 08:27:58 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: P.S. And one more thing... -:- Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 12:15:18 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: Answer the question Rob... -:- Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 12:33:50 (EST)
___op -:- Re: Answer the question Rob... -:- Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 16:35:58 (EST)
___Rob -:- Re: No shortage of suckers... -:- Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 19:48:57 (EST)
___Rob -:- Re: No shortage of suckers... -:- Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 19:55:20 (EST)
___Rob -:- Re: P.S. And one more thing... -:- Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 19:56:52 (EST)
___rob -:- orange, or orange? -:- Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 19:59:33 (EST)
___Rob -:- Re: P.S. And one more thing... -:- Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 20:02:35 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: P.S. And one more thing... -:- Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 20:25:33 (EST)
___Rob -:- Re: P.S. And one more thing... -:- Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 20:44:49 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: No shortage of suckers... -:- Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 21:04:43 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: P.S. And one more thing... -:- Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 23:08:25 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: P.S. And one more thing... -:- Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 23:08:26 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: P.S. And one more thing... -:- Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 23:08:35 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: Answer the question Rob... -:- Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 23:14:20 (EST)
___Mr Ex -:- Re: No shortage of suckers... -:- Wed, Dec 17, 1997 at 06:10:56 (EST)
___Brian -:- Re: No shortage of suckers... -:- Wed, Dec 17, 1997 at 07:54:29 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: No shortage of suckers... -:- Wed, Dec 17, 1997 at 10:13:38 (EST)
___Mr Ex -:- Re: No shortage of suckers... -:- Wed, Dec 17, 1997 at 11:05:00 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: No shortage of suckers... -:- Wed, Dec 17, 1997 at 12:08:29 (EST)
___Rob -:- Annie said it best... -:- Wed, Dec 17, 1997 at 14:16:03 (EST)
___Rob -:- Re: No shortage of suckers... -:- Wed, Dec 17, 1997 at 14:30:26 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: Annie said it best... -:- Wed, Dec 17, 1997 at 15:07:25 (EST)
___op -:- Re: No shortage of topics to write about -:- Thurs, Dec 18, 1997 at 03:54:26 (EST)
___Rob -:- Re: Annie said it best... -:- Thurs, Dec 18, 1997 at 13:18:21 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: Annie said it best... -:- Thurs, Dec 18, 1997 at 14:03:15 (EST)
___Rob -:- Re: Annie said it best... -:- Thurs, Dec 18, 1997 at 16:12:17 (EST)
___the definition of human being -:- means divine man being -:- Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 22:17:19 (EST)
Another message -:- from Seymour -:- Sun, Dec 14, 1997 at 10:18:31 (EST)
___Sir David -:- Re: from Seymour -:- Sun, Dec 14, 1997 at 12:36:27 (EST)
___Brian -:- Re: from Seymour -:- Sun, Dec 14, 1997 at 13:32:41 (EST)
___Bobby -:- another take on spirituality -:- Sun, Dec 14, 1997 at 14:53:32 (EST)
___not -:- harmful? -:- Sun, Dec 14, 1997 at 15:07:29 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: harmful? -:- Sun, Dec 14, 1997 at 15:35:00 (EST)
___spirit-yes -:- -uality? -:- Sun, Dec 14, 1997 at 16:27:00 (EST)
___Katie -:- Spiritual Experience -:- Sun, Dec 14, 1997 at 17:53:11 (EST)
___kathryn -:- Bunker -:- Sun, Dec 14, 1997 at 22:21:37 (EST)
___Frank -:- Re: from Seymour -:- Mon, Dec 15, 1997 at 02:52:45 (EST)
___Frank -:- Another Take Out Eat In Perspective -:- Mon, Dec 15, 1997 at 02:59:11 (EST)
___Frank -:- Another Take Out Eat In Perspective -:- Mon, Dec 15, 1997 at 02:59:14 (EST)
___Frank -:- A 3rd Identical Take Out Eat In Perspective Slightly Different -:- Mon, Dec 15, 1997 at 03:02:30 (EST)
___Katie -:- to Bill from Edith B. -:- Mon, Dec 15, 1997 at 16:19:39 (EST)
A Premie -:- In Praise of Love -:- Sat, Dec 13, 1997 at 10:54:02 (EST)
___Brian -:- Re: In Praise of Love -:- Sat, Dec 13, 1997 at 11:05:30 (EST)
___Bobby -:- Re: In Praise of Love -:- Sat, Dec 13, 1997 at 11:52:04 (EST)
___burkeoid -:- In Praise of Love -:- Sat, Dec 13, 1997 at 11:54:53 (EST)
___good point bri guy -:- Re: In Praise of Love -:- Sat, Dec 13, 1997 at 12:04:33 (EST)
___Notapremie -:- Re: In Praise of Love -:- Sat, Dec 13, 1997 at 14:03:39 (EST)
___Bobby -:- Re: In Praise of Love -:- Sat, Dec 13, 1997 at 14:20:46 (EST)
___Bobby -:- Re: In Praise of Love -:- Sat, Dec 13, 1997 at 14:58:22 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: In Praise of Love -:- Sat, Dec 13, 1997 at 15:03:28 (EST)
___CD -:- Re: In Praise of Love -:- Sat, Dec 13, 1997 at 16:02:09 (EST)
___CD -:- Re: In Praise of Love -:- Sat, Dec 13, 1997 at 16:14:00 (EST)
___CD -:- Re: In Praise of Love -:- Sat, Dec 13, 1997 at 16:22:20 (EST)
___Brian -:- Re: In Praise of Love -:- Sat, Dec 13, 1997 at 16:51:55 (EST)
___CD -:- Re: In Praise of Love -:- Sat, Dec 13, 1997 at 16:58:23 (EST)
___hello dolly, glad you found your -:- toy's again. say no?, skin must go. -:- Sat, Dec 13, 1997 at 20:18:15 (EST)
___not a premie? -:- oh yes you are. -:- Sat, Dec 13, 1997 at 20:33:43 (EST)
___Bobby -:- Re: toy's again. say no?, skin must go. -:- Sat, Dec 13, 1997 at 21:16:32 (EST)
___Sir David -:- Re: oh yes you are. -:- Sat, Dec 13, 1997 at 22:04:09 (EST)
___Shown in a free light, -:- they insult themselves -:- Sun, Dec 14, 1997 at 04:20:00 (EST)
___white -:- room -:- Sun, Dec 14, 1997 at 05:04:16 (EST)
___Alan -:- Re: In Praise of Love -:- Sun, Dec 14, 1997 at 09:39:09 (EST)
___David Simpkiss -:- Re: In Praise of Love -:- Sun, Dec 14, 1997 at 13:53:50 (EST)
___jhgghf -:- Re: In Praise of Love -:- Sun, Dec 14, 1997 at 14:17:52 (EST)
___Brian -:- Re: In Praise of Love -:- Sun, Dec 14, 1997 at 19:40:04 (EST)
Date: Wed, Dec 17, 1997 at 15:16:31 (EST)
Poster: d@vid
Email: d@vid
To: Everyone
Subject: Come back Harlan...
Message:
Here's another lost soul attemting to communicate with the fat one through the web site...
She/he writes thank you for the lovely program recently at Long Beach. i look forward to
attending many more with you.
Have you any response you'd like to make, oh Lord of all that ever was, is and shall be?
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Date: Wed, Dec 17, 1997 at 15:28:55 (EST)
Poster: d@vid
Email: d@vid
To: all
Subject: Help... (Re: Come back Harlan...)
Message:
This message came at the same time as the other. They make odd bedfellows! I must admit that it makes me feel very helpless when we get these kind of posts. I did put a page on the web site aimed at people worried about friends or family members who have been entrapped by the fat one, but it could do with a lot more work. Does anyone have any advice for our friend who writes:
______________________
I recently found your website (and thank you!), having decided to do some investigating about this cult leader/guru (Maharaji) who seems to have effectively "drugged" a friend of mine. She has apparently been involved
with this cult for 25 years. I have only known her for the past three, when she came to work for the same company as me, and at first I couldn't work out why she seemed unable to concentrate on anything, unable to learn, generally mentally quite unfocused. She started telling me about this
"teacher" she had, and persuaded me to come to one of the video presentations. It all struck me as quite harmless at that time, at least in terms of his message, except that there was something very hypnotic about his style of presentation - the slowness, repetition of phrases etc., and
the way everyone in the room seemed so mesmerised.
Anyway, as time went on it was obvious that my friend was quite unable to do her job. She obviously wasn't totally unintelligent, but her inability to concentrate, or think logically at all, made it impossible for her to learn the computer system, or anything much else. She also kept
disappearing every time M had one of his conferences, mass gatherings, or whatever they are. So she lost her job after six months, having not worked for years before, and she hasn't since. It's as if she is quite unable to make practical decisions, get up in the morning, or basically function in society in any way. She is also massively in debt, and still travels all over the world to these programmes. Her identity seems strangely fused with
both M's and God's (I think to her they are one and the same).
I have since discovered through my investigations into cults, about which I previously knew zero, that meditation can have a very negative effect on the cognitive processes of those who practice it. When she is questioned about her involvement, she trots out some claptrap which sounds completely unspontaneous, about truth, beauty, the heart etc. She seems to have been told what to respond when questioned.
Is there any way of helping her? Can she be persuaded that she is in fact the victim of some sort of mind control? I personally have no doubt that this is the case. It is terrible to know someone in this situation, and feel so much at a loss as to how to help her. I do not doubt that the experience she has from doing this meditation is very profound and wonderful, but it seems also to be very harmful to the mind, at least in her case.
Please advise me - you're the experts
_____________________________________
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Date: Wed, Dec 17, 1997 at 16:15:00 (EST)
Poster: CD
Email:
To: d@vid
Subject: Re: Help... (Re: Come back Harlan...)
Message:
Practicing Knowledge and attending Maharaji events is not detrimental to working with computers.
There is no loss of cognitive abilities.
There is a heightened awareness of your own existence.
I remember that Peter Frampton said that people thought he was strange because he always had a guitar strapped to his back.
It was a big reason why he became a successful musician.
Yes, some do find it strange when others seem to be obsessed with life, beauty, the heart and a pursuit of peace.
Everybody is not obsessed with the rational evening sitcoms, football or car alarams.
CD - MCSE - Microsoft Certified Systems Engineer
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Date: Wed, Dec 17, 1997 at 16:26:46 (EST)
Poster: John K.
Email:
To: d@vid
Subject: Re: Help... (Re: Come back Harlan...)
Message:
"I have since discovered through my investigations into cults, about which I previously knew zero, that meditation can have a very negative effect on the cognitive processes of those who practice it."
huh? I don't think surrenduring control of your life to another person has anything to do with meditation. I cannot think of one negative effect of meditation, other than it can be a bummer to learn just how asburd the thought processes are that we must listen to in our heads, and also it can be rather boring sometimes, but then what isn't?
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Date: Wed, Dec 17, 1997 at 18:30:06 (EST)
Poster: Bobby
Email:
To: John K.
Subject: Re: Help... (Re: Come back Harlan...)
Message:
'I have since discovered through my investigations into cults, about which I previously knew zero, that meditation can have a very negative effect on the cognitive processes of those who practice it.'
Generally speaking, long-term practice of meditation heightens awareness and intelligence. This is well documented.
But then, we see what we want to see and find evidence to support our views.
What the thinker thinks, the prover proves.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 18, 1997 at 01:41:44 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email: joger02@aol.com
To: d@vid
Subject: Re: Help... (Re: Come back Harlan...)
Message:
She started telling me about this 'teacher' she had, and persuaded me to come to one of the video presentations. It all struck me as quite harmless at that time, at least in terms of his message, except that there was something very hypnotic about his style of presentation - the slowness, repetition of phrases etc., and the way everyone in the room seemed so mesmerised.
I think these comments about the way M speaks is revealing. Reminds me of the video I watched recently.
JW
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Date: Thurs, Dec 18, 1997 at 12:21:53 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: d@vid
Subject: Re: Help... (Re: Come back Harlan...)
Message:
I am a former follower of Maharaji, not an expert on meditation (I don't practice it), but from what I have read, and from what other people have told me, meditation is usually a beneficial practice. It sounds like your premie friend might have some other psychological/physical problem. This problem could possibly be exacerbated by meditation, but I would suspect that she had the problem, or had the potential for developing the problem, before she became a premie.
I'm not a therapist of any kind, but her problem sounds suspiciously like Attention Deficit Disorder (without the hyperactivity that is often associated with it). People with this problem often cannot concentrate for more than a few minutes, appear rude or spacy or disconnected, tend to lose or quit jobs, are irresponsible with money, and so forth. I have some family members that have this problem and they are on medication for it and are doing much better - are able to concentrate and so forth. It can also be helped by cognitive therapy. But of course, this tentative diagnosis may be totally off base!
When I was a premie, premies were not encouraged to seek professional help for psychological problems. Meditation was supposed to solve everything. If your friend got knowledge 25 years ago she may be operating under that assumption as well. I'd encourage her to see a therapist of some kind - at least as a beginning. I hope things work out for her.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 18, 1997 at 12:38:41 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email: joger02@aol.com
To: d@vid
Subject: Re: Help... (Re: Come back Harlan...)
Message:
I agree that meditation in an of itself is usually not harmful and often a beneficial thing. But I think "meditation" can be harmful if it is used to prevent certain thoughts from coming into your mind that you think, or are told by your "Master," you are not supposed to have. Then, I think, meditation can be really harmful because it can be used to keep one from facing and addressing what is really going on. In my experience, a significant number of premies, at least in the past, were damaged in this way, because Maharaji said you were to try to meditate 24 hours per day and to "never leave room for doubt in your mind." If you really attempt to follow that direction, in my experience, you can become pretty unbalanced, and certainly frustrated.
I don't think Mahrarji says that directly anymore, but I heard a talk of his in 1996 in which he said that you should go inside to that "so beautiful" place and that he couldn't see why anyone would do anything else. Well, to get to the "beautiful place" supposedly you follow your breath "all the time" or else, you are doing "something else."
I think most balanced people likely ignore what M says here and just chock it up to his rhetoric, but there are likely premies who sincerely try to do what he says and that could have some really weird results, especially if the person already has some attention deficit or other problems.
Also, like Katie said, M and his cult have been quite anti-therapy (except for maybe some new-age est-like stuff) and certainly anti-intellectual, so that can also be a barrier to people really getting the help they need. At least I saw quite a few premies over the years who fell into this category.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 18, 1997 at 15:34:50 (EST)
Poster: CD
Email:
To: Katie
Subject: Re: Help... (Re: Come back Harlan...)
Message:
good advice Katie,
The Knowledge is not something that is used to solve mental or medical problems.
It is not a cure for stress.
If someone does have any sort of problem they are certainly advised to seek appropriate professional help.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 18, 1997 at 16:48:49 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: JW
Subject: Re: Help... (Re: Come back Harlan...)
Message:
I agree that meditation in an of itself is usually not harmful and often a beneficial thing. But I think 'meditation' can be harmful if it is used to prevent certain thoughts from coming into your mind that you think, or are told by your 'Master,' you are not supposed to have. Then, I think, meditation can be really harmful because it can be used to keep one from facing and addressing what is really going on. In my experience, a significant number of premies, at least in the past, were damaged in this way, because Maharaji said you were to try to meditate 24 hours per day and to 'never leave room for doubt in your mind.' If you really attempt to follow that direction, in my experience, you can become pretty unbalanced, and certainly frustrated.
I don't think Mahrarji says that directly anymore, but I heard a talk of his in 1996 in which he said that you should go inside to that 'so beautiful' place and that he couldn't see why anyone would do anything else. Well, to get to the 'beautiful place' supposedly you follow your breath 'all the time' or else, you are doing 'something else.'
I think most balanced people likely ignore what M says here and just chock it up to his rhetoric, but there are likely premies who sincerely try to do what he says and that could have some really weird results, especially if the person already has some attention deficit or other problems.
Also, like Katie said, M and his cult have been quite anti-therapy (except for maybe some new-age est-like stuff) and certainly anti-intellectual, so that can also be a barrier to people really getting the help they need. At least I saw quite a few premies over the years who fell into this category.
I definitely agree with JW that if meditation could be harmful if used to suppress certain thoughts or (especially, in my opinion) emotions. I never had the experience of being able to use meditation to suppress thoughts and emotions, which is why I didn't address this in my answer above. In my experience, people who are able to suppress certain negative thoughts or feelings that they think they are "not supposed to have" end up expressing these thoughts and feelings anyway. Sometimes in a very oblique fashion that doesn't appear to be related to the emotion, or sometimes directly, as in when a person just loses it.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 18, 1997 at 16:53:30 (EST)
Poster: d@vid
Email: d@vid
To: CD
Subject: Re: Help... (Re: Come back Harlan...)
Message:
CD said: The Knowledge is not something that is used to solve mental or medical problems. It is not a cure for stress.
Really CD? Have you checked the manual recently? I'm sure it said somewhere in there that the Knowledge was the key to eternal salvation. And if that's not a cure for mental stress, I don't know what is.
If someone does have any sort of problem they are certainly advised to seek appropriate professional help.
You really are a ridiculous prick, CD.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 18, 1997 at 17:09:50 (EST)
Poster: d@vid
Email: d@vid
To: JW
Subject: Re: Help... (Re: Come back Harlan...)
Message:
Joe wrote: I agree that meditation in an of itself is usually not harmful and often a beneficial thing.
Isn't that the point Joe? Meditation, par se, cannot be harmful because it's merely a way of centring the mind so that it can become still and at peace. I can't think that anyone could believe this was any more harmful than playing sport to keep the body healthy.
The problem with Maharaji is that he's stuck his great fat arse in from of the door market 'perfect meditation techniques' and demanded we all kiss his little wooly socks before we can enter. It makes me madder than hell. In fact so mad that I'll have to stick my fingers in my eyes and merge with the perfect being... Maharaji... is that you I see before me? Forgive me lord, it was all a mistake. Aaarrgghhh, don't turn away from me Maharaji... Not the fires of hell... Anything but the fires of aaarrrggghhhhhh...
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Date: Thurs, Dec 18, 1997 at 17:59:51 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email: joger02@aol.com
To: d@vid
Subject: Re: Help... (Re: Come back Harlan...)
Message:
Isn't that the point Joe? Meditation, par se, cannot be harmful because it's merely a way of centring the mind so that it can become still and at peace. I can't think that anyone could believe this was any more harmful than playing sport to keep the body healthy.
The problem with Maharaji is that he's stuck his great fat arse in from of the door market 'perfect meditation techniques' and demanded we all kiss his little wooly socks before we can enter. It makes me madder than hell. In fact so mad that I'll have to stick my fingers in my eyes and merge with the perfect being... Maharaji... is that you I see before me? Forgive me lord, it was all a mistake. Aaarrgghhh, don't turn away from me Maharaji... Not the fires of hell... Anything but the fires of aaarrrggghhhhhh...
I couldn't agree more. I think I might have a different emphasis because meditation, although I enjoyed doing it at least part of the time, it wasn't really that important to me. I did it because that's what M said you needed to do to realize knowledge (and satsang and service too) and to experience and show your devotion to him. Since I fell for his bullshit that he was the divine savior of mankind, I tried to do exactly as he said. To tell you the truth, after the first few years of doing meditation, if he hadn't contiuned to say to do it, I probably wouldn't have. It wasn't that enjoyable and I didn't feel the need.
In about 1980, I started running again. I've done lots of 10ks, several half-marathons and even a "whole" marathon. I get the same meditative calming and the feeling of being in touch with my life force when I run as I did when I used to sit in meditation. And I get fresh air and exercise to boot!
You're right, as Brian said, he sells people their own breath and then wants to be worshipped for it. Nice work if you can get it!
JW
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Date: Thurs, Dec 18, 1997 at 19:46:29 (EST)
Poster: Annie
Email: aerily@aol.com
To: d@vid
Subject: Re: Help... (Re: Come back Harlan...)
Message:
Your statements are foolish, and untrue. Maharaji has never demanded anything. There are no conditions placed upon receiving Knowledge, other than understanding. There is no money charged, ever. Those of you on the site here who slander and condemn Maharaji are witness to the fact that people are free to walk away. Those who remained for years, locked into a conceptual imaginary experience of devotion, were not held as victims of brainwashing, but as victims of their own fear, or unwillingness to think for themselves.
You are missing the primary message altogether. All the past masters have said the same thing: that which you seek is within you. Each of those masters in so many ways has spoken and acted in such a manner that people of their time have been confused and confounded; why? Sheep? yes. But one can be more than a sheep.
Who among you would be turning against Maharaji now if he met all of your expectations, followed your formula for how a "perfect master" ought to be?
Who among you would be thinking for yourselves?
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Date: Thurs, Dec 18, 1997 at 20:02:48 (EST)
Poster: Michael
Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net
To: Annie
Subject: Re: Help... (Re: Come back Harlan...)
Message:
Annie wrote: "Who among you would be turning against Maharaji now if he met all of your expectations, followed your formula for how a 'perfect master' ought to be?
Who among you would be thinking for yourselves?"
Of course we would still be Premies if he had met our expectations, but I don't think you recognise the fact that it was more than just Maharaji's failure as Perfect Master. I know that I left after a period of self reflection and the realization that the experience was seriously wanting; it was not working for me. It was not satisfying spiritually, intellectually, and I was not receiving the sense of community that I needed. I moved on, and I'm glad I did, because I am now fulfilled in those areas. Maharaji did sell himself as the answer to everything, as did PAM, but neither M or Knowledge were the answer to my needs. I'm glad that I am thinking for myself.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 18, 1997 at 22:34:51 (EST)
Poster: Brian
Email:
To: Annie
Subject: Re: Help... (Re: Come back Harlan...)
Message:
Who among you would be turning against Maharaji now if he met all of your expectations, followed your formula for how a 'perfect master' ought to be? Who among you would be thinking for yourselves?
Okay, I'll give him that. If he weren't so terribly inept I might still be able to swallow his platitudes without questioning them. But now I'm still left wondering how premies still do it in light of his failings... Habit? Sugar? Lots of catsup?
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Date: Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 06:20:24 (EST)
Poster: Mr Ex
Email:
To: Annie
Subject: Re: Help... (Re: Come back Harlan...)
Message:
Your statements are foolish, and untrue. Maharaji has never demanded anything. There are no conditions placed upon receiving Knowledge, other than understanding. There is no money charged, ever. Those of you on the site here who slander and condemn Maharaji are witness to the fact that people are free to walk away. Those who remained for years, locked into a conceptual imaginary experience of devotion, were not held as victims of brainwashing, but as victims of their own fear, or unwillingness to think for themselves.
You are missing the primary message altogether. All the past masters have said the same thing: that which you seek is within you. Each of those masters in so many ways has spoken and acted in such a manner that people of their time have been confused and confounded; why? Sheep? yes. But one can be more than a sheep.
Who among you would be turning against Maharaji now if he met all of your expectations, followed your formula for how a 'perfect master' ought to be?
Who among you would be thinking for yourselves?
Remember what we used to sing in Arti ?
protector of the weary and the weak .....
I really thought I was weary and week !
Some prefer the sheeps analogy ..... and wait for the savior.
This is what Mr PPR claims to be.
Remember where he recently (1997) gave darshan : Mauritius, Ivory Coast, Taiwan, India, Nepal, Australia, any other places ?
Isn’t it a devotional (‘paying respect’) cult ?
No need to bow before a teacher to thank him ! Send him a letter expressing your ‘gratitude’, preferably with a bank check (I did some times).
WHAT IS THIS TOE-KISSING BUSINESS ?
In English, it’s called devotion to a guru.
Just read these recent quotes I posted. Mr PPR speaks a very simple English. Everybody can understand what he expects.
I perfectly understand why premies want to hide it : it’s a shame (private).
I did hide it too. I know what it feels like.
How can you justify this in front of anybody !
Of course nobody will understand (that you are devoted to a guru).
Even newcomers and aspirants wouldn’t understand : that’s why they are not welcome to videos for ‘premies only’.
WHY CAN’T YOU RECOGNIZE THESE SIMPLE FACTS ?
(I’m not accusing any premie or anybody. It took me a lot to be able to do it).
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Date: Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 21:11:26 (EST)
Poster: bill burke,
Email: bb
To: Annie
Subject: unwilling to think for himself (Re: Come back Harlan...)
Message:
Hi Annie,
I think your analysis of my being a devotee for years
is incorrect and that is ok of course, but honestly,
maharaji is an adhearant of the disiple/satguru way
of thinking and he strongly, very strongly, held out
the ultimate experience as the carrot and said he
wanted complete and total devotion in order to
give me the experience that guru maharaji wants to
give me. Maybe it is just a matter of levels of involvement,
or listening, or memory, but there is a story of
maharajis' life that you are overlooking. And of course
thats fine too, I have an excellent and narrowly
focused memory. But, it would pain me to go through
all the sentences and incidents and actions to convey the
life and evolution of a devotee of maharaji.
Joan Apter had nothing on me.
I have been prepareing myself in numerous ways to be
a great and usable resource to all those around me
when maharaji became focused as a laser and was ready to
propagate and the economy downturned and people around me
were ready to go inside and also meet up with maharaji.
That was not out of fear. Although fear has been used
against my free impulses throughout my years of involvement.
'Bet everything on maharaji.' I don't suppose that
one is remembered by everyone. I did.
'don't try to score points in this world'
the story of eknath
ugh,
today and yesterday I felt physical pain and a form of
agony as all this kept comeing at me. This is not
whineing,
What if you were married and after 24 years it turns out
that this person never loved you, very definately
led you to dedicate your time and mental orientation
to them and on thier behalf, you gave up years of
living with your god given family and friends and
natural interests, thought that you were making love,
but you were being fucked.
There is no past masters, as jesus said ' all men can do
what I do and much much more.'
The idea of some men being gods' local masters is a
fantasy.
To still claim that he is a master like 'all the past
masters' is wrong and also runs counter to what you were
saying about 'those locked into a conceptual imaginary
experience of devotion' 'victims of thier own fear and
unwillingness to think for themselves.'
egad.
maybe I am guilty of that, and that much can make me feel
my stomach turn, but to imply brainwashing or coercion
or fraud is not a part is incorrect.
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Date: Sat, Dec 20, 1997 at 00:06:03 (EST)
Poster: annie
Email: aerily@aol.com
To: bill burke
Subject: you are thinking for yourself (Re: Come back Harlan...)
Message:
Bill: we will disagree on and on, I am sure; but I think there is no need. I have become fond of many here, and see no point in arguing. My experience cannot change yours, nor can yours change mine; I really believe each of us will do the best we can, with our very own understanding, whatever it is. My experience of day to day life has many of the qualities of a dream, or a theatre; I think I have said this before. My most beautiful experiences are when I feel moved, literally; operated by something beyond my own will; then it is so joyful to be alive, a witness to what I can only label as authentic magic, the power of love, within me, all around me, creating with my voice, my hands, my body, in this fascinating play; and giving me all the credit, me. That's when I feel, contrary to what mister X says, that I would gladly rest my head at the feet of the one who has opened this door for me, and called me through. There is nothing to hide, at least, I cannot see a need to hide anything.
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Date: Sat, Dec 20, 1997 at 10:33:28 (EST)
Poster: St.
Email: bb
To: annie
Subject: Annie of the beach (Re: Come back Harlan...)
Message:
I don't think we neccessarily will disagree on and on.
I have a thought maybe you will address, I'll put it up
top hopefully tonight.
but on an unrelated subject, the things you said about
the self deluded fearful ones two posts above is still
a bit stuck in my gut.
Your personal operating method sounds good.
maybe there should be a forum for premies and one
for devotees.
there is a difference in impact on a persons life
if they are built squarely around maharaji being the
superiour power in person, versus a helper who provided
a 'gift' whom you wouldn't mind bowing before in thanks
if it came to that.
I guess Mili is also 'self deluded and clinging out of fear'
as we sort of came out of the same mold.
OP too, chris on the other hand is probably here on
assignment at this point.
Fresh from a security meeting with somebody. hmmm?
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Date: Sat, Dec 20, 1997 at 10:49:06 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email:
To: Bland Bill
Subject: Re: Annie of the beach (Re: Come back Harlan...)
Message:
I don't think we neccessarily will disagree on and on.
I have a thought maybe you will address, I'll put it up
top hopefully tonight.
but on an unrelated subject, the things you said about
the self deluded fearful ones two posts above is still
a bit stuck in my gut.
Your personal operating method sounds good.
maybe there should be a forum for premies and one
for devotees.
there is a difference in impact on a persons life
if they are built squarely around maharaji being the
superiour power in person, versus a helper who provided
a 'gift' whom you wouldn't mind bowing before in thanks
if it came to that.
I guess Mili is also 'self deluded and clinging out of fear'
as we sort of came out of the same mold.
OP too, chris on the other hand is probably here on
assignment at this point.
Fresh from a security meeting with somebody. hmmm?
'cult'
'brainwashed'
'self-deluded'
'clinging out of fear'
...
Bullshit.
Is that the best you can do? Slap labels on me?
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Date: Sat, Dec 20, 1997 at 14:38:38 (EST)
Poster: CD
Email:
To: BB
Subject: Billy Bong (Re: Come back Harlan...)
Message:
>>Fresh from a security meeting with somebody. hmmm?
Bill,
Here's some help for you to pin me down:
After the meetings I like to walk to Blind Melons.
Look on the map. I live west of Cass Street.
Maybe you just need a good dunk in the Pacific and some B52s and music.
CD
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Date: Sat, Dec 20, 1997 at 15:00:15 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: CD
Subject: Re: Billy Bong (Re: Come back Harlan...)
Message:
Hey Chris, that looks like a fun place!
Can I come, too?
- Mili
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Date: Wed, Dec 17, 1997 at 14:09:40 (EST)
Poster: John K.
Email: kreilkamp@mindspring.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Spread the K
Message:
Given that m's stated mission is to spread knowledge to the world, and since many of us are critical of how he is doing this, how about we come up with suggestions for how it (the spreading of the K) could be done better?
Or what exactly is m doing that you would change? One of my many and varied beliefs is that if the creator wanted us all to be happy then the creator would have created us to be happy. And I do mean Happy, as in, you know, Really Happy (now the dwarf).
In other words, if the creator had wanted us to be aware of Life, we would have been born with that awareness and not have to wander the earth in a state of Anger, Desire, etc.
(But you know that's a stupid belief of mine because if the creator had wanted us to fly we would have been born with wings etc, you know, that whole argument.)
What I am trying to get at is a different view of m's project. When I was a follower, I did not allow myself to be critical in any way of any of his actions or decisions, and since leaving I have not even wanted to think about it, but now that I am on this web page I am thinking about all of this from a new perspective.
So, any suggestions?
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Date: Thurs, Dec 18, 1997 at 00:14:40 (EST)
Poster: Brian
Email:
To: John K.
Subject: Re: Spread the K
Message:
Given that m's stated mission is to spread knowledge to the world, and since many of us are critical of how he is doing this, how about we come up with suggestions for how it (the spreading of the K) could be done better?
While "spread[ing] Knowledge to the whole world" may be MJ's stated purpose, I don't believe that he is attempting to do anything more than expand his personality cult customer base. Note the scolding to non-purchasers of his helpful videos in Mr. Ex's post.
But let's assume for a moment that you find Knowledge helpful and beneficial, and would like to share that.
You don't know the whole world, so you will have to get your message out there. You use existing media. You don't DISCOURAGE discussion of this Great Gift, nor do you stifle premies who would talk without your having put the words in their mouths. You also don't pretend to have any copyright on the techniques you reveal. And, most importantly, YOU REVEAL THE TECHNIQUES FREELY TO WHOEVER WANTS TO LEARN THEM. You don't preach that they should be in any way grateful to you for doing so, or in any way indebted to "help" you do what you choose to do (spread Knowledge). You don't hole-up in a mansion paid for by people you hold by the spirtual balls, or fly your own personal jet over the head of a single person that you haven't made the effort to share your information with.
Do you come in contact with people that you feel are hungry for what you have? Share it. Or else let them suffer without your help. But whatever you do, DON'T STEER THEM TO SOMEONE WHO WILL USE THEIR HUNGER TO SATISFY HIS OWN NEED TO BE ADORED.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 18, 1997 at 00:36:28 (EST)
Poster: Sir David
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: Brian
Subject: Re: Spread the K
Message:
Well said Brian. I agree totally. If Maharaji was serious about people meditating on some or all of the techniques called Knowledge then instead of trying to keep them secret for a select few, he could make the techniques well known through the media and have meditation classes for people who wanted help in meditating.
There is a remarkable lack of help within "Maharaji's world" for people who have received the knowledge but have problems meditating. I have now realised that this is because Maharaji has had very little experience of meditating himself and problems are just glossed over.
I think it's an absolute scandal that Maharaji should be trying to capitalise on the experiences that some people have from doing meditation by claiming that it is because of him that they have experienced something. Thereby claiming to be God.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 18, 1997 at 06:21:56 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email:
To: Sir David
Subject: Re: Spread the K
Message:
Well said Brian. I agree totally. If Maharaji was serious about people meditating on some or all of the techniques called Knowledge then instead of trying to keep them secret for a select few, he could make the techniques well known through the media and have meditation classes for people who wanted help in meditating.
There is a remarkable lack of help within 'Maharaji's world' for people who have received the knowledge but have problems meditating. I have now realised that this is because Maharaji has had very little experience of meditating himself and problems are just glossed over.
I think it's an absolute scandal that Maharaji should be trying to capitalise on the experiences that some people have from doing meditation by claiming that it is because of him that they have experienced something. Thereby claiming to be God.
Well, you may think that ir's scandalous, but I would call it amazing - I've had him 'talk me into' that experience many times. He can bring you into that experience that he has, and you can also try to do it on your own through meditation.
What else is Maharaji doing than holding meditation classes and informing people about it? However, I think it's awfully irresponsible of you guys to publish the techniques on the Internet. They need to be practiced under expert guidance.
You know, if you've made up your mind that all this is 'wrong' there's obviously nothing I can say or do to make you reconsider. But, in fact, it's not wrong, it's wonderful, and there is a perfectly logical explanation for everything.
It's a pity that you are shutting yourself away from it.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 18, 1997 at 08:08:37 (EST)
Poster: Brian
Email:
To: Mili
Subject: Re: Spread the K
Message:
You're hopping around between subjects, Mili, so I'm re-arranging the order of quotes in my response.
What else is Maharaji doing than holding meditation classes and informing people about it?
He's charging for that information by extracting promises from people that they will "keep in touch", and will respect his sales territory (the known Universe) by acknowledging that the techniques are his personal property to dole out according to his own whims. "Keeping in touch" is carefully non-defined (read "disguised") as buying his videos and maintaining a dependency on him in order to experience something that was "within inside" of people while he was still swinging between his papa's legs. It is only the few brave premies posting here who are willing to defy his "preference" that premies not talk about The Great Gift on the Internet. The rest bow to his will. Out of gratitude?
I think it's awfully irresponsible of you guys to publish the techniques on the Internet.
Considering MJ's stated objective to spread his great understanding of life to the entire undeserving world, I would think that you would be even MORE appalled at his desire to NOT use the Internet. Do you rubberstamp EVERY decision he makes before you bow to it? I realize that you post here in defiance of his Divine Will, but what prevents you from disclosing the meditation techniques? Your own personal integrity? You promised? Eternal damnation? I owe him nothing, and he's free to return my money any time he wants. A couple of thou and we'll call it even.
[The techniques]need to be practiced under expert guidance.
Actually, they need to be practised while being OUT FROM UNDER expectations of MJ's "grace" and obligation ("gratitude") to him for being allowed to graduate to the higher-level videos. That you would consider an 8-year-old to be an "expert" in anything, only shows how little you personally are capable of thinking for yourself. I haven't considered 8-year-olds to be expert at anything since I was
seven. That's how old your expert was the last time he learned anything from his own dear Master (death being what it is).
I've had him 'talk me into' that experience many times.
You've never spoken to him, Mili. You have watched his videos religiously, and journeyed to sit at the foot of the throne, however. And he's never spoken to you, Mili, although I have a personal suspicion that he has been known to mutter your name in non-flattering terms while browsing this site.
That you can become dependent on "him" through watching his videos only reinforces the hidden cost of his "free" gift. There are a lot of motivation teachers out there who are also in the video business. Maybe MJ should make an Infomercial... (Do you have those in Croatia?)
He can bring you into that experience that he has, and you can also try to do it on your own through meditation.
Your unstated ending to this sentence is "but it won't work on your own without his grace". Otherwise you would save your money and not buy the carefully edited videos. As long as you view the phenomenon known as grace as being something that eminates from MJ, you're going to be his to command (however frustrating that may turn out to be for him).
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Date: Thurs, Dec 18, 1997 at 09:30:42 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: John K.
Subject: Re: Spread the K
Message:
If M really wants to spread knowledge to the whole world, he is going to have to learn to delegate. In other words, there need to be than one or two people in the world who are capable of running knowledge sessions). Granted, this didn't work too well the first time, but otherwise I can't see how his goal could possibly be reached in his lifetime.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 18, 1997 at 09:45:23 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email:
To: Brian
Subject: Re: Spread the K
Message:
I noticed that you ignored the bit where I say:
'It's a pity you are shutting yourself away from it.'
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Date: Thurs, Dec 18, 1997 at 09:47:05 (EST)
Poster: Mr Ex
Email:
To: Mili
Subject: Re: Spread the K
Message:
Dear Mili,
Can’t you consider the fact that many people (like me) came to Mr PPR with a sincere heart,
listened to what he said, practiced knowledge as explained, had beautiful experiences,
even lived in the ashram, have been totally dedicated to Mr PPR, had plenty of darshan
opportunities, regularly practiced daily, more (and often much more) than the minimum prescribed hour, for 20 years and more, and finally understood through their own experience that there is something wrong with Mr PPR ?
I of course understand that it’s not your experience (for the moment. I would say that you have 90% chances to discover that one day, like many others already did).
It wasn’t mine either. Until the day I understood (with professional unbiased help) that my
mind had been bent in such a way that what I thought right was awfully wrong.
This is what’s called ‘mind control’. Other explanations also fit.
I perfectly understand that it’s difficult to admit that someone you love and respect could do
that to you. It is very difficult to admit. It’s unfortunately something very common, and not
only in the ‘spiritual’ world.
I tell you this : why don’t you try to check ? With professional help.
There is a lot of books on this topic. Quite some interesting web-sites are dedicated to this issue. Why don’t you read some, and think about it.
You know why charlatans exist and make money ? Because human beings are easy to deceit. Including you and me.
If you think you’re going to convince any of us exs, you are wrong.
I think that our purpose here is not to convince you premies either.
What’s being said here is very helpful for many (like me), and many aspirants wanting to know more than what’s officially conveyed by Elan Vital, Mr PPR’s instructors and PR staff.
As far as I am concerned, I think that the meditation techniques taught by Mr PPR can be helpful for those wanting to have that kind of introspection.
But he owns no copyright on them.
They have already been published and offered in different contexts.
That’s why they are explained on the web-site : there is nothing mysterious about them, and they work fine without Mr PPR’s ‘grace’. He says the opposite : FINE.
Of course it’s always better to have a good teacher when you practice something like this. What I say is that Mr PPR is taking you into a devotional cult that has nothing to do with meditation.
There are qualified meditation teachers, you might pay for a course with them, and they won’t take you into a doubtful (and very harmful) relationship.
His ‘power’, ‘radiance’, whatever emanates from him and whatever you can feel in that (devotional) relationship with him is a well known phenomenon and has nothing to do with his supposed ‘divine’ nature. Lots of things have also been written about that issue.
Mr PPR is not a unique case in India or in the West.
If some peoples great achievement in life is going into an adoration cult,
if some peoples goal in life is worshipping a guru : FINE.
For those who are not looking for this, I think they have to be warned.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 18, 1997 at 10:35:28 (EST)
Poster: A
Email: aerily@aol.com
To: Mr Ex
Subject: Re: Spread the K
Message:
Yet there are many who have been as close or closer than you claim to have been, and for longer. They have a different perspective entirely; they have not left Maharaji. I still think that identifying yourself would lend more verity to your words; I am not convinced you are who you claim to be; I have not seen evidence yet of any exclusive insights.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 18, 1997 at 12:16:39 (EST)
Poster: Mr Ex
Email:
To: A
Subject: Re: Spread the K
Message:
Yet there are many who have been as close or closer than you claim to have been, and for longer. They have a different perspective entirely; they have not left Maharaji. I still think that identifying yourself would lend more verity to your words; I am not convinced you are who you claim to be; I have not seen evidence yet of any exclusive insights.
You don't know me anyway, I'm almost sure.
it won't change a thing. There are many other 'exs' like
me, they don't dare talking, I hope they will one day.
I gave details over my motivations in my 'confessions' with Jim Heller, on the ex-premie.org web-site.
And you can read my 'journey' under JM's name.
There are some weird semi-bongo security guys I don't like too much. You'll say I'm a bit over paranoid. I agree.
That must be part of the 'post-cult syndrom' I'm still into.
Sorry about that, I had to leave this cult.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 18, 1997 at 12:56:06 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email: joger02@aol.com
To: Mili
Subject: Re: Spread the K
Message:
What else is Maharaji doing than holding meditation classes and informing people about it?
Let me count the things. He spends $10,000 per day on HIMSELF to get all the bobbles, notions and cognac,that are befitting of a perfect master; he works VERY hard to avoid media attention, thus making his presence and "his" meditation known to a relatively small number of people; he orders grandiose and fabulously expensive items for HIMSELF, like airplanes, all the latest gadgets and electronic equipment, and those $5000 suits; oh yeah, he also drinks a lot and cheats on his wife and I doubt he does either of those things at the same time he is "holding meditation classes"; [By the way, I am I the only one who has a REALLY hard time imagining Maharaji having sex, especially with women are are likely a full head taller than he is?]; he has thousands of people kiss his feet and give him money and gifts at the same time; he apparently misses few meals as he seems to be able to maintain his girth, and I agree that he probably takes little time away from meditation classes to jog or workout at the gym.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 18, 1997 at 16:26:41 (EST)
Poster: Brian
Email:
To: Mili
Subject: Re: Spread the K
Message:
Geez, Mili. I can't comment on EVERY sentence you post :)
As for shutting myself away from it (I'm assuming you mean Knowledge?), what makes you think that? As you have posted in the past - I AM it. I just don't give MJ any of the credit for that fact. Or pay homage to him for building a loyal following of people who will SAY that the techniques help them get in touch with themselves, but who actually suspect that MJ is more "them" than they are and treat him with the bizarre reverence that belief entails. This is a "perception" which he plants in peoples minds, even as he is describing the experience of life which we all share. He ties them together so that if one is found to be true, the other is accepted along with it. Swallow the bait, swallow the hook.
I was working at a pizza restaurant once, and one evening I was really grouchy. A girl who was working with me handed me a piece of garlic bread and told me to eat it. She said, "I get cranky when I'm hungry too". I was surprised to realize that was the reason for my mood. At age 30, I still hadn't made the connection between my suppressed hunger and my outward grouchiness. She showed me that about myself, but that doesn't make her my Lord.
MJ benefits personally from endebting people to him for showing them something about their nature that he had to be shown himself. He didn't put it there, and any praise sent his way is badly misdirected (although greatly encouraged by him).
He is a fraud and a con-man. You have yet to distinguish between him and what you experience when you meditate. One is him. The other is you.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 18, 1997 at 16:45:30 (EST)
Poster: Brian
Email:
To: A
Subject: Re: Spread the K
Message:
Yet there are many who have been as close or closer than you claim to have been, and for longer. They have a different perspective entirely; they have not left Maharaji.
Cults only exist BECAUSE people choose to follow someone else through life, Annie. Nobody sets up a cult first and then begins to recruit. MJ inherited his, and many people HAVE left. Including his own family members. Think they knew him better than you, I, or a "professed" ex-initiator?
Whatever you got out of Knowledge, you took it into the room with you. You emerge the same, only now you have made a commitment to believe in MJ. Why? Because he showed you what you brought in yourself?
Come over to my house and bring a Million dollars hidden on you. Stop at the door and forget where you put the money. Then come in. I can promise you that my amazing wealth-building abilities will allow you to leave fully capable of spending and enjoying a Million dollars!!! But, of course, you're gonna owe me bigtime for my "gift"... Or, would you feel you had been used?
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Date: Thurs, Dec 18, 1997 at 18:15:33 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email: joger02@aol.com
To: John K.
Subject: Re: Spread the K
Message:
It will also be pretty tough to "spread this knowledge" when the majority of the funds that could be used to reach people is being used to support M's lavish lifestyle. It seems the priorities are in the wrong place. I mean, he doesn't have to be a pauper, but (one) nice suburban home (rather than serveral mansions all over the world), one nice luxury car, (as oppossed to about 30 cars including Ferrari's and Rolls Royces), and perhaps he could suffer the hardship of flying first class on commercial airliners, instead of having his own, very expensive, jet. That might be a good start.
And I think he should refrain from giving darshan. People are going to find out about that and when ordinary people hear that Maharaji has his feet kissed by his devotees, as recently as last September, that is going to turn new people off big time to him and his "knowledge." There will be a hardcore group that might be more galvanized to him by the possibility of darshan, but, you know what? -- I know people who are sort of "fence-sitting" premies who are turned off by it too because they are fearful that Maharaji is heading back into a "devotional phase" like the on that lasted until the mid-80s.
JW
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Date: Thurs, Dec 18, 1997 at 19:18:40 (EST)
Poster: op
Email:
To: Mr Ex
Subject: Re: Spread the K
Message:
Sorry, Mr. Ex. I don't consider 'professionals' unbiased. I also underwent professional help (several years before meeting M, and obviously for other reasons). I could see through the therapist to the goals she had for me.
If someone knows enough about 'cults' to be a professional therapist about them, that person has obviously formed an opinion. And if someone comes to them with problems they consider linked to the 'cult,' obviously their bias will be toward removing the patient from 'cult' surroundings, no matter what it takes.
You realize, of course, that I've put 'cult' in quotes all the way through because that's only the therapist's opinion.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 18, 1997 at 19:30:17 (EST)
Poster: op
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: Spread the K
Message:
$10,000 on himself: that came from someone on this site - nothing to back it up
bobbles, notions and cognac - ditto
works VERY hard to avoid media attention - he's mentioned, in public, why he doesn't want to be a media attraction. I won't go into it here, maybe somebody else would like to.
making his presence and his meditation known to a relatively small number - one by one; that relatively small number keeps his focus on individuals, instead of masses.
orders grandiose and fabulously expensive items for himself: again, hearsay on this site
airplanes, the latest gadgets, etc. etc. - with a purpose; the airplane (note, singular) takes him to where he's invited; the gadgets (computer equipment, etc.) help with his work
those 5000 suits: hearsay
also drinks a lot - hearsay
cheats on his wife - hearsay
thousands of people kiss his feet - see below
give him money and gifts at the same time - see below again
misses few meals - you'd be surprised. Those meditation classes, and preparing for them, can take up a lot of time.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 18, 1997 at 20:12:22 (EST)
Poster: Annie
Email: aerily@aol.com
To: Brian
Subject: Re: Spread the K
Message:
Whatever you got out of Knowledge, you took it into the room with you.
You emerge the same, only now you have made a commitment to believe in
MJ. Why? Because he showed you what you brought in yourself?
Come over to my house and bring a Million dollars hidden on you. Stop at
the door and forget where you put the money. Then come in. I can promise
you that my amazing wealth-building abilities will allow you to leave
fully capable of spending and enjoying a Million dollars!!! But, of
course, you're gonna owe me bigtime for my 'gift'... Or, would you feel
you had been used?Brian: you are not correct, regarding me. I came out of the room with something I did not have when I went in.
I do not have a commitment to believe in Maharaji.
And I don't feel that I owe him "big time" -- nor has he ever, EVER made me to feel that way. There have been many times I have felt quite overwhelmed with appreciation, gratitude to him. At those times it is simply clear that there is no amount of money or time that could buy this gift.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 18, 1997 at 23:58:32 (EST)
Poster: XXX
Email:
To: Mr Ex
Subject: Re: Spread the K
Message:
What did Jim Heller advise you to do to redeem yourself (your penance) after your 'confessions' ?
Are you making progress?
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Date: Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 10:36:45 (EST)
Poster: John K.
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: Spread the K
Message:
Actually 20 years ago, there was an understanding that giving ss to "the initiated" was different than giving it to new people. However, when I first heard about K in '72, there wasn't that separation. Everyone listened to the same message. I wonder what year it was that they (or he) decided to have separate ss for aspirants. That's something that always subliminaly irritated me - that we had to change the message for aspirants. Or, in other words, hide stuff, or LIE. If it really is necessary to worship the LORD then why not just come right out and say that from the start. It should be one way or the other, not a little bit of both.
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Date: Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 11:12:12 (EST)
Poster: Mr Ex
Email:
To: op
Subject: Re: Spread the K
Message:
I didn’t either go to a therapist because of my involvement with Mr PPR.
I had an other problem (or what I thought was a ‘problem’).
I wasn’t aware of anything wrong regarding my involvement with PPR at that time.
In the midst of all the things I talked to my analyst, I did of course talk about my meditation practice and few things regarding my relation with Maharaji.
But as time passed and I my insight was slowly changing, I also noticed some big changes in my attitude towards people I was doing ‘service’ with, and a big change in my attitude towards Elan Vital’s policy and Maharaji’s, and a big change in the way I was thinking about what I was doing.
For 25 years I didn’t allow me to think or criticize much of what was being done, said, etc. I did disagree with plenty of things but did do much about it, beside applying Maharaji’s formula : ‘TRUST’. (Like so many do. When you don’t like, or you don’t agree, you ‘trust’.)
And then I did allow me to question everything I was involved in, to discuss these issues with my premie friends ...... and started thinking straight again about all this crap. I couldn’t buy anymore all this BS.
The therapist didn’t influence me at all. I had to go back to a regular thinking and analyzing mode (mine, anyway) in my relationship with him, and with anything else as a consequence.
I guess that’s what therapy is all about (psychoanalysis).
That’s also why I say that there are no risks undergoing this process. It can only take you back to yourself. It might be painful. I agree. But such a relief.
You can of course say that any professional help is biased by nature, like anything linked to anything.
The only unbiased thing maybe is the feeling of life itself, but there is not much to say about it.
As soon as you start using words, interpretations begin.
As soon as you play disciple, you play a role, according to your culture and what’s being taught.
As soon as Mr PPR plays guru, he is exposed to critics and judgments.
As soon as Mr PPR plays teacher, he is exposed to investigations.
As soon as Mr PPR starts giving special meanings to words _ like love, he becomes very suspicious.
As soon as Mr PPR starts claiming copyrights on things he doesn’t own,
he is manipulating naive people and ridiculous to others.
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Date: Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 11:54:44 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email: joger02@aol.com
To: op
Subject: Re: Spread the K
Message:
$10,000 on himself: that came from someone on this site - nothing to back it up
bobbles, notions and cognac - ditto
works VERY hard to avoid media attention - he's mentioned, in public, why he doesn't want to be a media attraction. I won't go into it here, maybe somebody else would like to.
making his presence and his meditation known to a relatively small number - one by one; that relatively small number keeps his focus on individuals, instead of masses.
orders grandiose and fabulously expensive items for himself: again, hearsay on this site
airplanes, the latest gadgets, etc. etc. - with a purpose; the airplane (note, singular) takes him to where he's invited; the gadgets (computer equipment, etc.) help with his work
those 5000 suits: hearsay
also drinks a lot - hearsay
cheats on his wife - hearsay
thousands of people kiss his feet - see below
give him money and gifts at the same time - see below again
misses few meals - you'd be surprised. Those meditation classes, and preparing for them, can take up a lot of time.
You know OP, when items are known about and reported on, by many different parties, the label of "hearsay" just can't be used, like you do, to write them off as untrue.
-- The $10,000 per day cost, as reported by MR. Ex is right in line with the number I recall when I was at National Headquarters in 1980. At that time, we were told by the honchos, who were trying to get us to squeeze even more money from the already cash-strapped premies, that it took $300,000 per month just to support M and his family, and, of course all the residences, automobiles and servants that he had. Funny how that divides down to just about $10,000 per day.
Bobbles and notions -- please, anybody who has been a premie for more than about 15 minutes knows that M has always LOVED material possessions, especially the latest gadgets, et al. For example, when I was a CC in several different cities, I would get calls from PAM and told M had seen, for example, an ad for a new watch that wasn't available in stores yet, but could be gotten directly from the company that made them. I recall when I was CC in SF, going to a high-tech company to get the watch M wanted. I recall it had lots of electronic gadgets on it and cost $300. I felt so privileged to get a toy for M that he wanted. I also recall he liked Fannie May Candy from Chicago so we used to box up candy weekly and send it to the residence at PAM's request. I also recall requests to get, among other things, sheets (from I. Magnin $400 per sheet) for the motorhome (California King Sized). This was a common occurrence.
WHY doesn't he want media attention, I mean other than he will get asked who or what he is and why he has thousands of people kiss his feet, both of which he tries like hell not to answer because it makes him look like the cult leader that he is to the vast majority of thinking people.
Focus on individuals -- you ARE kidding, right? M has NEVER "focused on individuals." I was his devotee, and lived in his ashram for 10 years and he never even spoke to me even once. The same was true for 99% of his devotees.
Grandiose and fabulously expensive items: NOT HEARSAY -- how about that Boeing 707 aircraft, completely rennovated by hundreds of premies at the cost of millions of dollars that included (seen with my own eyes) gold bathroom fixtures and a shower that, with the push of a button, automatically set the water temperature for the shower just to the Lord's liking. It was also programmed for Durga Ji's desired temperature as well. He got SO grandiose about this, that at one point, M wanted premies to weave the fabrics used in the upholstery on the plane. Plain old purchased upholstery was just not good enough. By the way, the millions he raised for that plane was done deceitfully. The premies were told that they were sending money for a "world tour," when in fact the money was going for his plane. Oh, also even his motorhome had GOLD plumbing fixtures, but I'm sure that's not considered grandiose, or anything.
BTW- the plane may have had a purpose (transportation), but even given that M could travel first class on commercial airliners and not be subjected to too much hardship, the other oppulence was hardly necessary.
When I was cc in Miami, M went to the Galleria Shopping Center to an exclusive men's store and spent $6000 for one suit. I hardly think this was a rare occurrence. Have you ever seen him wear anything (except the Krishna outfit) more than ONCE?
The drinking and cheating on his wife have been reported by enough people that it can hardly be considered hearsay. Especially since these rumors have been around for years and neither you, and certainly not M, has ever said the slightest thing to deny them. Hmmmm. But as I have said, those personal problems and foibels and pretty low on my list of the problems I have with him.
Now, thousands of people kissing his feet is NOT hearsay and even you admitted he just did it in Australia in September of this year. I estimate I attended nearly 50 darshan lines while I was a premie. And people certainly do give him money and gifts at the same time. I know it's not REQUIRED, but he would be NUTS to say that, now wouldn't he?
JW
Missing meals, well, that may happen, but given his girth, he must make up for it later.
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Date: Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 14:58:36 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: John K.
Subject: Re: Spread the K
Message:
Actually 20 years ago, there was an understanding that giving ss to 'the initiated' was different than giving it to new people. However, when I first heard about K in '72, there wasn't that separation. Everyone listened to the same message. I wonder what year it was that they (or he) decided to have separate ss for aspirants. That's something that always subliminaly irritated me - that we had to change the message for aspirants. Or, in other words, hide stuff, or LIE. If it really is necessary to worship the LORD then why not just come right out and say that from the start. It should be one way or the other, not a little bit of both.
I think starting around 1975 or so, we began to hold what were officially called "introductory programs" for people who were hearing about Maharaji and knowledge for the first time. But those were the days, before Maharaji banned it, that the communities held satsang every night. I don't recall that new people were ever forbidden from attending the satsangs the premies attended, except we did tell people giving satsang to be aware if there were "new people" in the audience.
Later on the procedure became a little more formalized, but it never worked very well. The intro programs were pretty bland and boring. Then about 1981, M approved a few videos for intro programs and these were the ONLY videos you could use for those events. Those were pretty bland and boring too. But premies still brought friends to regular satsang and they were not prevented from doing so. At least at regular satsang, there was a chance you might get the feeling that the people in the room were pretty "into" what was going on. At intro programs, premies were usually too afraid that they might say the wrong thing.
Now, it seems like things are VERY controlled and segregated. The aspirant program is very structured (see website) and premies do not give satsang anymore, so mainly, if an aspirant actually made it to an intro program, he or she would probably only see carefully selected videos. The aspirant program (both as to content and videos) appears to start out with the innocuous, this-is-jus-a-beautiful-experience-through-meditation-speil, and gradually introduces the need for the Master, the need to do "service" (obviously to him) and the nature and joys of "gratitude," which you are supposed to feel and which enhances your experience. This is what we USED to call devotion, and, judging from the songs sung to M at programs, he and many premies still call it that under appropriate conditions (when "new people" aren't around).
JW
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Date: Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 15:41:11 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: JW
Subject: Re: Spread the K
Message:
Does anyone know what type of "service" is encouraged nowadays? (When I read the list of videos, I was struck by the one for aspirants which emphasized the importance of "service" to the full "Knowledge experience". When I was a premie, a lot of service consisted of propagation efforts. For example, we used to go out and put up posters, sell And It Is Divine, give out leaflets, help at the DUO office, etc, etc. Also we were asked to tithe - to give 10% of our income - to DUO. Can't remember when that started and stopped, all I know is I couldn't afford it after a while so I had to quit doing it.
Is satsang - telling people about video programs, showing videos in your home, and so forth, - counted as service now? Or does service consist mostly of donating money?
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Date: Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 16:10:31 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email:
To: Katie
Subject: Re: Spread the K
Message:
Does anyone know what type of 'service' is encouraged nowadays? (When I read the list of videos, I was struck by the one for aspirants which emphasized the importance of 'service' to the full 'Knowledge experience'. When I was a premie, a lot of service consisted of propagation efforts. For example, we used to go out and put up posters, sell And It Is Divine, give out leaflets, help at the DUO office, etc, etc. Also we were asked to tithe - to give 10% of our income - to DUO. Can't remember when that started and stopped, all I know is I couldn't afford it after a while so I had to quit doing it.
Is satsang - telling people about video programs, showing videos in your home, and so forth, - counted as service now? Or does service consist mostly of donating money?
Just to let anyone know who wants to answer this - I'm going to repost it at the top under a new thread.
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Date: Wed, Dec 17, 1997 at 10:33:48 (EST)
Poster: Mr Ex
Email:
To: Everyone
Subject: Some new genuine documents
Message:
Here is some extremely interesting material.
Visions International sends (twice or 3 times a month) a list of newly released videos & materials to all national, regions and major places contacts.
These documents can of course be analyzed in different ways.
It undoubtedly shows how information is carefully monitored by Elan Vital’s organization.
I strongly believe in publishing genuine information of that type to help people being aware of what really goes on in Elan Vital.
*******************
New videos available for shipping Wednesday, 26 February :
700 The Company You Keep 38mn
(Features selected excerpts of Maharaji talking about how we can be influenced by the beauty within. Suitable for people who have received Knowledge and aspirants who have been listening regularly.)
701 Preparing for the Gift of Knowledge: The Simplicity 21mn
(Features selected excerpts from the Aspirant Meeting in Barcelona, Spain 1996. Maharaji speaks to aspirants about accepting the simplicity of Knowledge, For aspirants who have been listening regularly.)
702 Come and Listen 25mn
(Features Maharaji talking about the importance of keeping in touch with the Master and coming to listen at the video events, Suitable for people who have received Knowledge and aspirants who have been listening regularly.)
703 Expression 26mn
(Features selected excerpts of Maharaji talking about the joy of participation and how all around the world Knowledge is spread by people talking to people. For people who have received Knowledge only.)
704 Companionship Within 34mn
(Features selected excerpts of Maharaji talking about making a commitment to practice, finding pleasure in being with yourself and delighting in the experience within. For people who have received Knowledge only.)
705 Long Beach Highlights 1996 60mn
(Featuring selected excerpts from the Special Anniversary three-day event in December, 1996. Includes songs performed at the event. Intended for people who have received Knowledge and for aspirants.)
Note: New videos suitable for people who have recently received Knowledge: Come and Listen, Expression, Companionship Within, The Company You Keep, Remember, Master Brings Knowledge to Life, Accepting Knowledge.
.....
the last month each of which captures a different important theme recently addressed by Maharaji. Please make sure the aspirant video planners have access to the video notes contained in these cornmunication memos and are aware of the newly released aspirant materials.
An additional note from the production staff: During the month of November, 1996, Maharaji did an unprecedented tour of India, visiting three cities outside of Delhi as well as Kathmandu, Nepal. Maharaji was extremely excited about the impact of these events and it showed in the dynamic addresses he gave. None of his excitement and important communication is lost in the translation. Videos of all of Maharaji's events are produced so people around the world in every culture, and every country can keep fully up to date and keep totally in touch with him as he travels. Many countries took a break and did not order all of the India tour videos. Please be aware that by doing so, you are denying the people in your country or community a chance to hear everything and that you are missing some of the great moments of 1996. For example, on Hans Jayanti, the birthday of Shri Maharaji, Maharaji's father, Maharaji was speaking in Calcutta. The morning event from November 8, 1996 contains wonderful and extraordinary talk about the Master. Please take advantage of these videos.
My comment : there are lots of naive organizers who still try to hide Mr PPR giving satsang in India. Does it show a little it too much what all this is really about ? Is there anything wrong in showing or hiding the Lord of the Universe ? Big issue in Elan Vital’s meetings !
*************************************************
Here is another one :
NEW VIDEOS AVAILABLE FOR SHIPPING WEDNESDAY, 12 FEBRUARY :
Our offering this time includes:
* one new introductory video
* three new aspirant videos
* two new videos suitable for people who have recently received Knowledge
691 Sincerity 32mn
(Maharaji speaking to people preparing to receive Knowledge. Re speaks about coming with sincerity to Knowledge and the Master, and that without the thirst, the techniques mean nothing.)
692 About Learning 29mn
(Maharaji speaking to people preparing to receive Knowledge. He talks about how people sometimes come to Knowledge with concepts; that they need to learn for themselves how to feel the thirst. Be simple and learn to comprehend the joy inside.
693 The Fine Line - between mortality and immortality - 31mn
(Selected excerpts of Maharaji speaking at an introductory event in Grand Baie, Mauritius 1996.)
694 Turning Towards Beauty 38mn
(Maharaji speaking to people preparing to receive Knowledge. He talks about how Knowledge puts you in touch with a place inside that already exists. Prepare to turn towards that.)
695 To Remember 40mn
(Maharaji speaking to people who have received Knowledge and to people preparing to receive Knowledge who have been listening regularly. He talks about remembering the dearest.)
696 The Master Brings Knowledge to Life 22mn
(Maharaji speaking to people who have received Knowledge and to people preparing to receive Knowledge who have been listening regularly. He talks about the living Master and the living Knowledge.)
Video Event Planners Notes:
The following information is for planning purposes only, not for publication.
* Sincerity Selected excerpts from aspirant meetings in Aguas de Lindoja, Brazil and Brisbane, Australia 1996
* About Learning Selected excerpts from the aspirant meeting in Auckland, New Zealand I 996.
* Turning Towards Beauty Selected excerpts from aspirant meetings in Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia and Brighton, England 1996
In updates #90, #91, #92 we have released six new aspirant videos. One of the videos, Accepting Knowledge, is particularly important for aspirants to view as it introduces them to service and that there is more to Knowledge than the four techniques. The six new aspirant videos are: Accepting Knowledge, About Knowledge, Aspire to Learn, About Learning, Sincerity, and Turning Towards Beauty.
We are releasing two videos this time suitable for new premies (which can also be shown to active aspirants): To Remember and The Master Brings Knowledge to Life.
A Look Ahead :
The next group of videos will include more videos for new premies: The Companionship Within about practicing, and The Company You Keep about the divine seeking the divine.
*************************************************
And another one :
VSIONS INTERNATIONAL
P.O. Box 4918 Thousand Oaks, CA 91361, USA
Phone (805) 49&4777 Fax (805) 495-3165
To: All Contacts
From: xxx xxxxx
Date: February 17, 1997
Re: Recalled Video
As you have been informed recently, the video titled ‘Amaroo Participation Meeting’ (item # 663) that was released in November has been recalled,
If you have not mailed it yet, please return it to Visions immediately and upon receipt the revised version will be mailed to you.
Thanks,
xxx
***************
Any comments ?
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Date: Wed, Dec 17, 1997 at 11:48:13 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email:
To: Mr Ex
Subject: Re: Some new genuine documents
Message:
Are you the guy who got fired from Elan Vital with 250$ severance pay? You must be doing this to get back at your boss, right?
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Date: Wed, Dec 17, 1997 at 12:07:04 (EST)
Poster: Mr Ex
Email:
To: Mili
Subject: Re: Some new genuine documents
Message:
Are you the guy who got fired from Elan Vital with 250$ severance pay? You must be doing this to get back at your boss, right?
Go to the ex-premie.org web-site
and read my 'journey' under JM's
and what Jim called 'my confession' part 1 & 2
That made me lough ...
Plus some other documents.
I resigned! Enough cheat & deceit is enough.
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Date: Wed, Dec 17, 1997 at 13:18:04 (EST)
Poster: John K.
Email: kreilkamp@mindspring.com
To: Mr Ex
Subject: Re: Some new genuine documents
Message:
Two questions: what is interesting about this? Maybe I am missing something, but I just don't get the significance of it. and how exactly do you get this stuff? Are you actually stealing it?
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Date: Wed, Dec 17, 1997 at 13:35:36 (EST)
Poster: Mr Ex
Email:
To: John K.
Subject: Re: Some new genuine documents
Message:
Two questions: what is interesting about this? Maybe I am missing something, but I just don't get the significance of it. and how exactly do you get this stuff? Are you actually stealing it?
I don't steal anything, nor did I steal anything
My position in EV gave me access to a lot of documents for more than 20 years.
I still have some of these.
You can read my 'journey' on the ex-premie.org web-site
as well as my 'confessions', and some other documents that I found very interesting.
Many premies have copies of these documents, and there is nothing 'secret' about them ....
Most of the premies and aspirants of course can never access to them, that's why I posted them.
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Date: Wed, Dec 17, 1997 at 23:56:12 (EST)
Poster: Brian
Email:
To: Mr Ex
Subject: Re: Some new genuine documents
Message:
This is exactly what I was referring to in my post below about what people are and are not allowed to be aware of - the deceipt being directed from the top and implimented by the devoted. The situational honesty practiced by premies, who learn through disapproval what is and isn't to be kept from others.
Thanks for posting this. Even though it will probably only serve to "confuse" the introductory aspirants, the regular aspirants, and the about-to-receive-knowledge aspirants. Most premies get to watch ALL of these. (Not counting the recalls.)
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Date: Thurs, Dec 18, 1997 at 01:33:36 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email: joger02@aol.com
To: Mr Ex
Subject: Re: Some new genuine documents
Message:
God, this list is so revealing. Thanks, Mr. Ex. If you have anything more, please post it.
It's so revealing that only certain things are to be seen by aspirants, and certain things are only to be seen by people who have received knowledge. Such paranoid control in the guise of "instructing aspirants."
I posted down below a response to another thing aspirants aren't told. OP said that aspirants aren't told about darshan because it's not relevent to knowledge. But that is such bullshit. Ask premies if they thing darshan is relevent to knowledge. People are not told about thousands of people kissing M's feet and the fact that a lot of his followers are REALLY into it, because it exposes what M is about; his megalomanic need to be adored.
Darshan is entirely relevent and should not be hidden from aspirants or anyone else. It is a true reflection on who or what M thinks he is (a deity worthy of being worshipped) (Katie, did I spell "deity" right this time?) and aspirants, or other interested people have a right to know about it. Not telling them is pure deceit. At least when I received knowledge that fact was not deceitfully hidden from people. But then, that was a different time. Now, he needs to be deceitful to con people gradually into his devotional/worship/give-me-money/trip.
JW
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Date: Thurs, Dec 18, 1997 at 07:22:11 (EST)
Poster: Sir David
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: JW
Subject: Re: Some new genuine documents
Message:
Yes Joe, and aspirants should also be told that Maharaji considers himself to be an incarnation of God. Come on now, what's the point in hiding it? You shouldn't hide something as important as this from humanity. Ir should be broadcast on all media to all people.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 18, 1997 at 09:50:47 (EST)
Poster: Mr Ex
Email:
To: Sir David
Subject: Re: Some new genuine documents
Message:
Yes Joe, and aspirants should also be told that Maharaji considers himself to be an incarnation of God. Come on now, what's the point in hiding it? You shouldn't hide something as important as this from humanity. Ir should be broadcast on all media to all people.
What did you do with these nice and recent excerpts of Mr PPR's satsangs where he says he is Hari in person ? I sent them some months ago.
These have been published!
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Date: Thurs, Dec 18, 1997 at 10:15:00 (EST)
Poster: Mr Ex
Email:
To: Sir David
Subject: He said he is Hari! (Re: Some new genuine documents)
Message:
Yes Joe, and aspirants should also be told that Maharaji considers himself to be an incarnation of God. Come on now, what's the point in hiding it? You shouldn't hide something as important as this from humanity. Ir should be broadcast on all media to all people.
Different things Mr PPR said about love :
First :
Love not for a reason. Love that doesn't have strings attached. Not a definition. Not a thought. Not an abstract object sitting on a shelf. Love is something that human beings need to feel. Either you do, or you don't.
There are so many loves. Yes, I love my new dog. But if this dog turned on me and started attacking me, I don't know if I could make that statement. So it is love, but it has strings attached, like so many relationships.
True love has no strings attached. The intensity of that love, the feeling of how real and how beautiful it is cannot be talked about. It can only be felt. When something makes my existence possible, how can I not love that one thing the most ? Without me doing anything, a gift unfolds in the most magnificent way each day.
From the Magazine published by Visions Intl, (A conversation with M) page 5
(Everything seems find and beautiful when you read this, isn’t it !
You may find that kind of discourse in a Knowledge presentation conference, this is the kind of thing said to newly interested people. 1st step of the brainwashing about love.)
*****************
Then you might find this :
Real love.
The only thing I care about, the only thing that I want, is that relationship with you as individuals — that love. To me, that is another blessing that I can enjoy You see, I can enjoy that. Nobody else can. I can You can enjoy it in a different way — that Love, that Grace that experience.
Because that Knowledge is manifesting within you and that is what is real and that is what is beautiful to me. That is what I want to enjoy. I want to enjoy your love; that is what is important to me — to enjoy that relationship between you and me, that love, because that is Grace too.
Love is many things. Love is many, many things. There is physical love. It is not the real love. It is only a copy of the real love. And what is real love? Real love is really, I think, that which can be between two people. I mean, of course there is love between husband and wife, but I think that is a copy of the real love. It is not real love, but, I mean, it is real to them. And it is okay that they love each other and that is no problem. They like each other. You see, there is a difference between liking each other and loving each other. Obviously, if the husband doesn’t like the wife, do you think they are going to love each other ?
At first they like each other; then they love each other. But they say it is love.
But really what is love? Love is again that relationship, that cord, that tie, between you and somebody who has really shown you a way to love. Because, I think, sometimes as naive as we become in this world, we even forget truly how to love. And there is only one thing, one person, that we can really love with our heart and soul. And that is the presence of that Supreme Being. That is Love.
The other love comes and goes. It is like milk. It tastes great the first day, the second day it goes sour, and the third day it is useless.
So, the real love, really, is that love that we are taught how to love really from our soul. Because that is real. Anything that has something to do with real is attached to that real. And that real thing is really a part of that incredible, infinite energy inside of us, giving us this breath, giving us this life, and giving us the opportunity to love.
M said that in Milan, Italy, September 22, 1983
It was printed in « The Knowledge »,
published by Divine United Organization, Shri Hans Yogashram,
Shahurpur, Chandan Hulla
Mehrauli, New Delhi - 110 030
(This is what he usually says to premies and to aspirants that have been coming for a while. 2nd step of the brainwashing about love.)
************
Then you may encounter something even more incredible, ‘About what a real guru is’, guess who is speaking ? about whom ?
Excerpt from M’s discourse at Shri Sant Yogashram, New Delhi, India
November 9, 1990
Published in : ‘Life Force’ Volume 7, Issue 2, April-June 1991
by : Divine United Organization
Shri Sant Yogashram, Shahurpur, Mehrauli,
New Delhi 110 030, India
Just see, today this word 'guru' has become a ridiculous term, a sort of a joke and people do not know what is a 'guru'. When I fly a plane in India, I often listen to the radio in the cockpit. There are talks going on between various pilots in the vicinity. Somebody would address: ''Well Guru, how are you?" Because they do not know the true meaning and implications. They don't understand the glory of a guru and Master. Because they have forgotten altogether. They have made such pseudo-guru who have put the whole system to disrepute. For instance, in schools they don't know the correct meaning of a couplet like:
The radiance radiated from my beloved is of suds an amazing hue ...
They say, "oh yes, because Kabir saw a sort of redness..."
But what sort of redness was it? Such so-called gurus have marred the reputation of this institution. It has been ruined. Actually the guru is such a personality about whom it is said:
« I bow down to the lotus feet of my Guru Maharaji, who is the ocean of mercy and is actually Hari (God) himself in human form.
And whose words are like sunbeams to disperse the accumulated darkness of gross ignorance. »
So Tulsidas says that he bows down to such a Guru Maharaji, the Master, who is really Hari (Supreme Power) in the form of man.
So the main thing to understand here is that he bows down to the feet of that guru whose utterances, whose expressions are able to illuminate. And what is that which is illuminated by his words? It is the heart which is illuminated. His words are able to sever and dispel the spidery web of illusion, infatuation and ignorance. This I have seen myself and realized in my own heart.
Yes, in my heart!
(That was the 3rd step of the brainwashing about love. When you are lucky enough to integrate this, you may be lost for ever in M’s world ..... and for good! Really bad.)
My comment : Mr PPR says different things in different contexts, guess what he really thinks, what he really expects, what he really wants !
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Date: Thurs, Dec 18, 1997 at 10:45:22 (EST)
Poster: Mike
Email: bigguy32@juno.com
To: Mr Ex
Subject: Re: Some new genuine documents
Message:
Yes Joe, and aspirants should also be told that Maharaji considers himself to be an incarnation of God. Come on now, what's the point in hiding it? You shouldn't hide something as important as this from humanity. Ir should be broadcast on all media to all people.
What did you do with these nice and recent excerpts of Mr PPR's satsangs where he says he is Hari in person ? I sent them some months ago.
These have been published!
I'm just wild about Hari... and Hari is just wild about me!!
Sorry, just couldn't resist the opportunity. I'll go back to my cage now.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 18, 1997 at 10:55:22 (EST)
Poster: A
Email: aerily@aol.com
To: Mr Ex
Subject: Re: He said he is Hari! (Re: Some new genuine documents)
Message:
I cannot quote exactly, but on two occasions when Maharaji was asked about who he was, he responded something like:
first you must know who you are;
and another time:
you yourself must realize the truth.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 18, 1997 at 12:03:26 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: John K. and Mr. Ex
Subject: Re: Some new genuine documents
Message:
Two questions: what is interesting about this? Maybe I am missing something, but I just don't get the significance of it. John - I find Mr. Ex's documents interesting because I am from the pre-video era, where people weren't divided so sharply into beginners, aspirants, and people who have knowledge. To the best of my recollection, we were allowed to bring new people to any program, or any satsang at the ashram, although there were some public programs that were specifically intended for newcomers. (Also, when I was a premie, our big 'video' nights consisted of watching a copy of one of the Shri Hans productions movies - "Satguru Has Come" and "Lord of the Universe" - in a church basement, and cheering if someone from our community appeared in a crowd or darshan scene - remember that? I think we were allowed - possibly even encouraged - to bring newcomers to see these movies.)
The first time I ever laid eyes on a Maharaji video was last year, when I found one lying on the lab bench at work (where it was - to me - so out of context that I literally didn't realize what it was until that evening when I thought about it.) It turns out that there is a premie that works where I work, and he had left one of the intro 4-minute videos in our lab. That's also how I found out that Maharaji was still in business. BTW, I've never actually watched a video, nor do I want to.
P.S. To Mr. Ex - do you know why they recalled the Amaroo video? I remember Deena saying that she had watched it, but sent it back when they asked her too.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 18, 1997 at 12:10:04 (EST)
Poster: Mr Ex
Email:
To: A
Subject: Re: He said he is Hari! (Re: Some new genuine documents)
Message:
I cannot quote exactly, but on two occasions when Maharaji was asked about who he was, he responded something like:
first you must know who you are;
and another time:
you yourself must realize the truth.
That's exactly my point : he says different things in different contexts.
Now let's have some logic.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 18, 1997 at 12:15:37 (EST)
Poster: A
Email:
To: Mr Ex
Subject: Re: He said he is Hari! (Re: Some new genuine documents)
Message:
duh
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Date: Thurs, Dec 18, 1997 at 13:23:38 (EST)
Poster: Rob
Email:
To: Mr Ex
Subject: Re: He said he is Hari! (Re: Some new genuine documents)
Message:
Two points:
1) I find no problems with your three quotes of GMJ on Love. They all fit together. Can you be more specific on how they contradict each other?
2) I love the Hari thing. I hear that GMJ sees god in his Guru. I do too. If you don't, then, so what?
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Date: Thurs, Dec 18, 1997 at 13:25:30 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email: jogero2@aol.com
To: A
Subject: Re: He said he is Hari! (Re: Some new genuine documents)
Message:
I cannot quote exactly, but on two occasions when Maharaji was asked about who he was, he responded something like:
first you must know who you are;
and another time:
you yourself must realize the truth.
I take it you don't regard this as an evasive answer or anything. By the way, wasn't it Kung Fu who said that on his TV show?
JW
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Date: Thurs, Dec 18, 1997 at 13:34:44 (EST)
Poster: Rob
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: He said he is Hari! (Re: Some new genuine documents)
Message:
Annie said,
I cannot quote exactly, but on two occasions when Maharaji was asked about who he was, he responded something like:
first you must know who you are;
and another time:
you yourself must realize the truth.
I take it you don't regard this as an evasive answer or anything. By the way, wasn't it Kung Fu who said that on his TV show?
JW
Evasive? THAT's interesting. Please inform me why that's evasive. You should tell me 1) what he SHOULD say, 2) what the truth is, and 3) why this DOESN'T address the truth.
I expect you're going to say, "I should have said it seems evasive TO ME".
No malice intended.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 18, 1997 at 15:11:06 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email: joger02@aol.com
To: Rob
Subject: Re: He said he is Hari! (Re: Some new genuine documents)
Message:
Annie said,
I cannot quote exactly, but on two occasions when Maharaji was asked about who he was, he responded something like:
first you must know who you are;
and another time:
you yourself must realize the truth.
I take it you don't regard this as an evasive answer or anything. By the way, wasn't it Kung Fu who said that on his TV show?
JW
Evasive? THAT's interesting. Please inform me why that's evasive. You should tell me 1) what he SHOULD say, 2) what the truth is, and 3) why this DOESN'T address the truth.
I expect you're going to say, 'I should have said it seems evasive TO ME'.
No malice intended.
Well, Rob, I doubt anything he would say would be "evasive" to you, because, according to what you told Katie, you're just so gosh darn "positive" about absolutely anything the Big M says or does.
Secondly, I didn't say I thought it was evasive, I asked Annie whether SHE didn't think it was evasive.
But objectively, (really!) and now that we're on the subject, if someone asks you who you are, (Annie said the question was "who he was")and the response is to turn it around and say: "go find out who YOU are," or: "you yourself must realize the truth" [I guess, of who he is}], that's akin to saying: "that's for me to know and for you to find out" which, yes, I DO find evasive.
ALso, there are occasions when M didn't mince words about answering that question, either saying, or allowing others to say without comment or correction if he thought they were wrong, that he was "greater than god," "satguru," "the lord of the universe," the equivalent of Buddha, Krishna and Jesus Christ, and "the perfect master." In light of those titles, those answers to the question appear to me to be even more evasive. He tried very hard, especially to reporters, not to directly say he was god. He would say that his followers call him that, and that he wasn't saying that, but he also never denied that what they were saying was true. More evasion, again, in my opinion.
JW
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Date: Thurs, Dec 18, 1997 at 16:08:22 (EST)
Poster: Rob
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: He said he is Hari! (Re: Some new genuine documents)
Message:
But objectively, (really!) and now that we're on the subject, if someone asks you who you are, (Annie said the question was 'who he was')and the response is to turn it around and say: 'go find out who YOU are,' or: 'you yourself must realize the truth' [I guess, of who he is}], that's akin to saying: 'that's for me to know and for you to find out' which, yes, I DO find evasive.I'd find that evasive too, but that's not what I hear (and not because I'm so gosh darn 'positive' about absolutely anything the Big M says or does.) (I've got to give you credit JW. When you say things like that, I'm really convinced that you are only five years old. A-mazing!)
I hear him saying that he is the same as me inside.
ALso, there are occasions when M didn't mince words about answering that question, either saying, or allowing others to say without comment or correction if he thought they were wrong, that he was 'greater than god,' 'satguru,' 'the lord of the universe,' the equivalent of Buddha, Krishna and Jesus Christ, and 'the perfect master.' In light of those titles, those answers to the question appear to me to be even more evasive. He tried very hard, especially to reporters, not to directly say he was god. He would say that his followers call him that, and that he wasn't saying that, but he also never denied that what they were saying was true. More evasion, again, in my opinion.
I don't see it. All those fancy schmancy titles never bothered me. I don't care what people call themselves. It's what they are that counts. Tell me that he, or I for that matter, is/am not the buddha. (And prove it ;-)
I think the point is not what others call him, but what he does that is important.
He gave me peace on earth. You gonna call me a liar? :-)
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Date: Thurs, Dec 18, 1997 at 17:19:01 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email: joger02@aol.com
To: Rob
Subject: Re: He said he is Hari! (Re: Some new genuine documents)
Message:
I'd find that evasive too, but that's not what I hear (and not because I'm so gosh darn 'positive' about absolutely anything the Big M says or does.) (I've got to give you credit JW. When you say things like that, I'm really convinced that you are only five years old. A-mazing!)
I hear him saying that he is the same as me inside.
I don't see it. All those fancy schmancy titles never bothered me. I don't care what people call themselves. It's what they are that counts. Tell me that he, or I for that matter, is/am not the buddha. (And prove it ;-)
I think the point is not what others call him, but what he does that is important.
He gave me peace on earth. You gonna call me a liar? :-)
I don't call you a liar, Rob. If that's what you say you got from him, I take that at face value. All I say is that you might be open to the possibility that a lot of other people have had very different experiences with Maharaji. And what you "hear him saying" is your own choice, but what he's actually saying, maybe to people who "hear" differently, is likely something else.
And the fact that those "schmancy" titles "never bothered you" is fine for you, but that's really rather irrelevent to the point being made, namely, that Maharaji was evasive (even deceitful) in answering the question of who or what he is. He allowed all those "schmancy" "god titles" to be used by and about him, and then gave coy rhetorical answers like "I don't say I'm god, they do" when directly asked the question. I think I understand that that means nothing to YOU, but I would think you could see how others might find it relevent.
I'm not sure how being convinced I'm five is giving me "credit." Does that mean you really think I'm YOUNGER than five?
JW
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Date: Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 00:22:24 (EST)
Poster: CD
Email:
To: Sir David
Subject: Re: Some new genuine documents
Message:
The priority #1 task is to try to get a handle on your own existence.
Say Jesus shows up.
Who is going to believe him?
Is turning water into wine again enough?
Or should he go for top notch whiskey this time?
Now I guess the earth is held in position by the sun.
But what is directing the sun?
And what gives time that subtle feel anyways?
Regards,
CD
"the path to glory is littered with fuck-ups" - Warrior's Strategy for Success
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Date: Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 07:45:24 (EST)
Poster: Brian
Email:
To: CD
Subject: Re: Some new genuine documents
Message:
Say Jesus shows up.
Who is going to believe him?
Is turning water into wine again enough?
That'd do it alright. As it is now, premies are more than satisfied by MJ's ability to turn water into urine merely by drinking it. As a Divine Being, MJ is surprisingly short on simple parlor tricks. If you don't count making money disappear.
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Date: Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 13:29:14 (EST)
Poster: Rob
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: He said he is Hari! (Re: Some new genuine documents)
Message:
I don't call you a liar, Rob. If that's what you say you got from him, I take that at face value. All I say is that you might be open to the possibility that a lot of other people have had very different experiences with Maharaji. Of course that's true. That's the whole point. I'm not going to go a research the archives, but my point was that I'm sure I hear ex's saying they are RIGHT, not "I don't know the truth but my experience is...".
And what you 'hear him saying' is your own choice, but what he's actually saying, maybe to people who 'hear' differently, is likely something else.
Man, you've got vague down to a science don't you. How can you say you know better than I what he is "actually" saying?
And the fact that those 'schmancy' titles 'never bothered you' is fine for you, but that's really rather irrelevent to the point being made, namely, that Maharaji was evasive (even deceitful) in answering the question of who or what he is. He allowed all those 'schmancy' 'god titles' to be used by and about him, and then gave coy rhetorical answers like 'I don't say I'm god, they do' when directly asked the question. I think I understand that that means nothing to YOU, but I would think you could see how others might find it relevent.
Well now you're just repeating yourself.
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Date: Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 14:21:51 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: Rob
Subject: Re: He said he is Hari! (Re: Some new genuine documents)
Message:
I don't say I know better than you what he is "actually saying." What I wrote was that many people "hear differently" what he is actually saying. I didn't say either reality was better or worse than the other. Got it? If you acknowledge that, thank you. That's much better than your previous statements about ex-premies having the wrong "interpretation" which implies that premies have the "right interpretation" [of what M is saying or has said].
No one has the corner on the objective "truth," Rob. I don't, but then neither do you. The point of this discussion, to me is to allow both viewpoints to be aired.
JW
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Date: Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 14:32:28 (EST)
Poster: He said he is the
Email: bb
To: Mr Ex
Subject: supreme being (Re: Some new genuine documents)
Message:
right there in the italy excerpt is another example of
his many clear indications to us that he is that
superiour power within us.
he really must be stopped.
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Date: Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 21:41:03 (EST)
Poster: the path to glory? is littered
Email: bb
To: CD
Subject: with innocents that got fucked over. (Re: Some new genuine documents)
Message:
I've got a more cheerful post for you up top but
this one caught my eye.
maharaji does not meet me inside.
he does not hear my heart.
he is an ordinary guy.
his words are there to back that up.
it's just a hindu stance of you can worship god through
me. And for my believers, I will play out the role.
But it is not true.
That counts for a lot to the real lord or power.
The price we pay for falseness is high and it is
neither honorable or glorious to distract people
from thier own discovery of god and tell them
point blank that you are the ultimate ruler.
I don't know when proud rob dropped into the maharaji
world but his memory and stance indicates a painful
discovery of the truth is ahead of him.
I don't know why anyone has any debate over what maharji
says he is, he speaks with a forked tongue, on one
side he implies he is just a helpful master, and
on the other side he is the power that is inside us and
he is the friend within, and he is the reason your heart
can feel love, and he is the one deserving your god focus.
I mean surely there is no debate about the two sides
of maharaji.
maharaji has nothing to do with the power that is holding
the sun. he is just like you.
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Date: Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 22:45:00 (EST)
Poster: CD
Email:
To: the path to glory? is littered
Subject: Re: with innocents that got fucked over. (Re: Some new genuine documents)
Message:
Bill,
There is a certain perspective in which all of our lives can be experienced as a supreme form of magic.
I consider that to be important.
In fact, I actually 'feel' it to be of great value.
Stick to your heart and quit moaning and groaning about M.
Many people do not even know there is such a thing as the heart.
You do. You are lucky.
I have no sympathy for you.
You are doing quite well.
Regards,
CD
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Date: Sat, Dec 20, 1997 at 10:43:22 (EST)
Poster: op
Email:
To: Brian
Subject: Re: Some new genuine documents
Message:
Say Jesus shows up.
Who is going to believe him?
Is turning water into wine again enough?
That'd do it alright. As it is now, premies are more than satisfied by MJ's ability to turn water into urine merely by drinking it. As a Divine Being, MJ is surprisingly short on simple parlor tricks. If you don't count making money disappear.
'The way to God is not a circus.'
-Yogananda
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Date: Thurs, Dec 25, 1997 at 03:13:54 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Mr Ex
Subject: Re: He said he is Hari! (Re: Some new genuine documents)
Message:
Yes Joe, and aspirants should also be told that Maharaji considers himself to be an incarnation of God. Come on now, what's the point in hiding it? You shouldn't hide something as important as this from humanity. Ir should be broadcast on all media to all people.
Different things Mr PPR said about love :
First :
Love not for a reason. Love that doesn't have strings attached. Not a definition. Not a thought. Not an abstract object sitting on a shelf. Love is something that human beings need to feel. Either you do, or you don't.
There are so many loves. Yes, I love my new dog. But if this dog turned on me and started attacking me, I don't know if I could make that statement. So it is love, but it has strings attached, like so many relationships.
True love has no strings attached. The intensity of that love, the feeling of how real and how beautiful it is cannot be talked about. It can only be felt. When something makes my existence possible, how can I not love that one thing the most ? Without me doing anything, a gift unfolds in the most magnificent way each day.
From the Magazine published by Visions Intl, (A conversation with M) page 5
(Everything seems find and beautiful when you read this, isn’t it !
You may find that kind of discourse in a Knowledge presentation conference, this is the kind of thing said to newly interested people. 1st step of the brainwashing about love.)
*****************
Then you might find this :
Real love.
The only thing I care about, the only thing that I want, is that relationship with you as individuals — that love. To me, that is another blessing that I can enjoy You see, I can enjoy that. Nobody else can. I can You can enjoy it in a different way — that Love, that Grace that experience.
Because that Knowledge is manifesting within you and that is what is real and that is what is beautiful to me. That is what I want to enjoy. I want to enjoy your love; that is what is important to me — to enjoy that relationship between you and me, that love, because that is Grace too.
Love is many things. Love is many, many things. There is physical love. It is not the real love. It is only a copy of the real love. And what is real love? Real love is really, I think, that which can be between two people. I mean, of course there is love between husband and wife, but I think that is a copy of the real love. It is not real love, but, I mean, it is real to them. And it is okay that they love each other and that is no problem. They like each other. You see, there is a difference between liking each other and loving each other. Obviously, if the husband doesn’t like the wife, do you think they are going to love each other ?
At first they like each other; then they love each other. But they say it is love.
But really what is love? Love is again that relationship, that cord, that tie, between you and somebody who has really shown you a way to love. Because, I think, sometimes as naive as we become in this world, we even forget truly how to love. And there is only one thing, one person, that we can really love with our heart and soul. And that is the presence of that Supreme Being. That is Love.
The other love comes and goes. It is like milk. It tastes great the first day, the second day it goes sour, and the third day it is useless.
So, the real love, really, is that love that we are taught how to love really from our soul. Because that is real. Anything that has something to do with real is attached to that real. And that real thing is really a part of that incredible, infinite energy inside of us, giving us this breath, giving us this life, and giving us the opportunity to love.
M said that in Milan, Italy, September 22, 1983
It was printed in « The Knowledge »,
published by Divine United Organization, Shri Hans Yogashram,
Shahurpur, Chandan Hulla
Mehrauli, New Delhi - 110 030
(This is what he usually says to premies and to aspirants that have been coming for a while. 2nd step of the brainwashing about love.)
************
Then you may encounter something even more incredible, ‘About what a real guru is’, guess who is speaking ? about whom ?
Excerpt from M’s discourse at Shri Sant Yogashram, New Delhi, India
November 9, 1990
Published in : ‘Life Force’ Volume 7, Issue 2, April-June 1991
by : Divine United Organization
Shri Sant Yogashram, Shahurpur, Mehrauli,
New Delhi 110 030, India
Just see, today this word 'guru' has become a ridiculous term, a sort of a joke and people do not know what is a 'guru'. When I fly a plane in India, I often listen to the radio in the cockpit. There are talks going on between various pilots in the vicinity. Somebody would address: ''Well Guru, how are you?' Because they do not know the true meaning and implications. They don't understand the glory of a guru and Master. Because they have forgotten altogether. They have made such pseudo-guru who have put the whole system to disrepute. For instance, in schools they don't know the correct meaning of a couplet like:
The radiance radiated from my beloved is of suds an amazing hue ...
They say, 'oh yes, because Kabir saw a sort of redness...'
But what sort of redness was it? Such so-called gurus have marred the reputation of this institution. It has been ruined. Actually the guru is such a personality about whom it is said:
« I bow down to the lotus feet of my Guru Maharaji, who is the ocean of mercy and is actually Hari (God) himself in human form.
And whose words are like sunbeams to disperse the accumulated darkness of gross ignorance. »
So Tulsidas says that he bows down to such a Guru Maharaji, the Master, who is really Hari (Supreme Power) in the form of man.
So the main thing to understand here is that he bows down to the feet of that guru whose utterances, whose expressions are able to illuminate. And what is that which is illuminated by his words? It is the heart which is illuminated. His words are able to sever and dispel the spidery web of illusion, infatuation and ignorance. This I have seen myself and realized in my own heart.
Yes, in my heart!
(That was the 3rd step of the brainwashing about love. When you are lucky enough to integrate this, you may be lost for ever in M’s world ..... and for good! Really bad.)
My comment : Mr PPR says different things in different contexts, guess what he really thinks, what he really expects, what he really wants !
You know, 'Mr Ex', you sound intelligent and well educated enough, but the indercurrent of your attitude is the same old witch hunt and inquisition from the Dark Ages. 'How could this tan Oriental possibly know something about God that I don't know?' Yours is the Bible Belt Christian fundamentalist mentality that drove Mike Chapman to shoot Lennon, and that still inspires the Ku Klux Klan meetings and cross burnings.
Have you ever thought about what your real motives and prejudices might be as you wage this crusade against personal experience, freedom of thought and perception and individual choice. What other arguments have you basically presented here other than an irrational 'Maharaji is a bogeyman' scare?
Look up xenophobia in a dictionary.
'Yet religion remains essentially private knowledge if we consider where the most significant testing of religious evidence takes place. Who is it that ends up convinced, or not convinced, by the evidence? However we might try to answer that question, from history or from contemporary religion, whatever some might insist the answer ought to be - who should have the last word - and regardless of the way some of us try to influence one another, we can't avoid the conclusion that human decisions about whether to believe there is a God - and, if so, what sort of God - are private decisions, not a concensus.'
- The Fire in the Equations by Kitty Ferguson, pp.244
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Date: Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 15:31:01 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email: joger02@aol.com
To: Everyone
Subject: GMJ -- Enjoy Your Life
Message:
I had a conversation with a premie recently which reminded me of a number of comments that have been made in the newsgroup and the forum. They are the same, seemingly innocuous statements that Maharaji just says to "enjoy your life" and that, really, there isn't anything else involved in being a premie. The statement goes something like:
"Maharaji says we're just to enjoy our life, that's all, nothing more -- he's not saying anything more."
In fact, I have heard "enjoy your life" or a similar phrase so consistently from premies that I suspect it is something that Maharaji says over and over, in my opinion, to gloss over what he is really doing.
To me, it sound like Perfect-Master-speak for "Have a nice day." I mean, come on -- enjoy your life -- so what? Most everyone I know is trying to enjoy their lives. Now, presumably, practicing meditation enables you to enjoy life MORE, though I certainly haven't seen any evidence of that (a lot of premies are very miserable and I certainly was much of the time I was a premie despite consistent practicing of knowledge) and to the extent it does to that by making you more relaxed or whatever, meditation techniques are available lots of places and M's are no better than anyone else's.
I do think that premies enjoy life more when they are in the presence of Maharaji, but that's not due to knowledge or meditation, that's cult-ism and the "group high" that also happens lots of places like christian revivals, some rock concerts, and even at an Amway convention. As a premie, I certainly got high at those programs, and to an extent, I could re-create the high my thinking about how high I was, listening to the music I heard there, and longing for the next program.
I guess I believe that M and a lot of he premies are saying these bland, simple things, while all the time M and many of the premies are operating on another level, which is the devotional/gratitude thing, that M did do blatantly until the early 80s, but now does more subtly because it is less acceptable. I personally believe that the whole effort is phony and that M really requires more but he and the premies take great pains to make it appear simple, with no requirements except to "enjoy life." But what is really happening here?
You don't fly around the country and the world to go to his programs, or give money to someone who just tells you to enjoy your life, now do you? You don't kiss the feet of someone who just says that either.
In the Long Beach video from 1996 I watched, lots of very devotional songs were sung to M and so that element is definitely there, but, although the songs used "devotion" and other such words, he, Maharahi, used the word "gratitude" where he used to use the word "devotion." But he DID say that by giving gratitude to M, you INCREASE your experience of [and this is how he almost always describes it]: "that love," "that joy," "that experience." He used to use the word "devotion" in the same way.
It's something you have to pull the layers off to see, but it's definitely there.
Comments, anyone?
JW
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Date: Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 16:05:36 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: GMJ -- Enjoy Your Life
Message:
There is a WHOPPER of an experience there, JW, not just a mood, or a froth of emotion. But, you have to figure it out for yourself, that's all I can sincerely tell you.
- Mili
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Date: Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 16:32:59 (EST)
Poster: John K.
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: GMJ -- Enjoy Your Life
Message:
enjoy life...that's about as deep and intellectually challenging and stimulating as 'don't worry, be happy'.
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Date: Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 16:47:33 (EST)
Poster: op
Email:
To: John K.
Subject: Re: GMJ -- Enjoy Your Life
Message:
enjoy life...that's about as deep and intellectually challenging and stimulating as 'don't worry, be happy'.
How about 'enjoy Life'?
It's that subtle difference between enjoying a good meal, a meal, and a roll in the hay (nothing wrong with that) and perceiving and experiencing the reality that moves the cosmos, that GIVES you Life.
A whole another dimension.
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Date: Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 16:54:28 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: op
Subject: Re: GMJ -- Enjoy Your Life
Message:
enjoy life...that's about as deep and intellectually challenging and stimulating as 'don't worry, be happy'.
How about 'enjoy Life'?
It's that subtle difference between enjoying a good meal, a meal, and a roll in the hay (nothing wrong with that) and perceiving and experiencing the reality that moves the cosmos, that GIVES you Life.
A whole another dimension.
Yeah, I was going to answer that, but you beat me to it, op!
The thing is, it means enjoy life through the Knowledge. Be aware of life itself - and you will find... SURPRISE!
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Date: Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 17:41:34 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email: joger02@aol.com
To: Mili
Subject: Re: GMJ -- Enjoy Your Life
Message:
There is a WHOPPER of an experience there, JW, not just a mood, or a froth of emotion. But, you have to figure it out for yourself, that's all I can sincerely tell you.
- Mili
Thanks, Mili. You're right. I know everyone has to figure it out for themselves. In the end, no one can tell you what to believe.
JW
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Date: Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 17:41:45 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email: joger02@aol.com
To: Mili
Subject: Re: GMJ -- Enjoy Your Life
Message:
There is a WHOPPER of an experience there, JW, not just a mood, or a froth of emotion. But, you have to figure it out for yourself, that's all I can sincerely tell you.
- Mili
Thanks, Mili. You're right. I know everyone has to figure it out for themselves. In the end, no one can tell you what to believe.
JW
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Date: Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 17:43:28 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email: joger02@aol.com
To: op
Subject: Re: GMJ -- Enjoy Your Life
Message:
enjoy life...that's about as deep and intellectually challenging and stimulating as 'don't worry, be happy'.
How about 'enjoy Life'?
It's that subtle difference between enjoying a good meal, a meal, and a roll in the hay (nothing wrong with that) and perceiving and experiencing the reality that moves the cosmos, that GIVES you Life.
A whole another dimension.
OOOOOO. Now THAT is deep. I just don't know WHAT I think now.
JW
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Date: Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 18:02:19 (EST)
Poster: David
Email: d@vid
To: JW
Subject: Re: GMJ -- Enjoy Your Life
Message:
OOOOOO. Now THAT is deep. I just don't know WHAT I think now.
As odl said, they're playing a different ball game to us, Joe. We get to roll in the hay but they get to kiss the white wooly socks of the Lord of everything that has ever been. Oh woe is us who turn up our snouts at their pearls of wisdom. Pass the whip Joe, I feel a touch of repentance coming on.
David
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Date: Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 18:14:04 (EST)
Poster: odl
Email:
To: David
Subject: Re: oh dear, shades of catholicism (Re: GMJ -- Enjoy Your Life)
Message:
As odl said, they're playing a different ball game to us, Joe
What's this them and us stuff? You keep saying you've got the techniques, you don't need M to practice them...
One of the attributes of Samsara (material world) is that it's sticky. You get stuck in a time/place warp and it's really hard to pull away.
Twenty five years have passed. Time for some of the glue to dissolve, no? It's NOT them and us any more - and it never was, where it counts.
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Date: Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 18:34:39 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: odl erpim
Subject: Re: oh dear, shades of catholicism (Re: GMJ -- Enjoy Your Life)
Message:
As odl said, they're playing a different ball game to us, Joe
What's this them and us stuff? You keep saying you've got the techniques, you don't need M to practice them...
One of the attributes of Samsara (material world) is that it's sticky. You get stuck in a time/place warp and it's really hard to pull away.
Twenty five years have passed. Time for some of the glue to dissolve, no? It's NOT them and us any more - and it never was, where it counts.
Hello op - I honestly do not get it - what do you mean? About Samsara being sticky and no them and us anymore? Can you be more specific, or explain it in a different way.
Thank you.
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Date: Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 18:49:18 (EST)
Poster: David
Email: d@vid
To: odl
Subject: Re: oh dear, shades of catholicism (Re: GMJ -- Enjoy Your Life)
Message:
What's this them and us stuff? You keep saying you've got the techniques, you don't need M to practice them... One of the attributes of Samsara (material world) is that it's sticky. You get stuck in a time/place warp and it's really hard to pull away. Twenty five years have passed. Time for some of the glue to dissolve, no? It's NOT them and us any more - and it never was, where it counts.
I won't argue with you odl because you're absolutely right. There is no difference between me and you. Like the walrus said, 'I am he as you are me and we are all together...' What really amazes me is how you fail to see that the fat one is also just like us. Except it seems his podgy fingers have stuck to far more of life's material goodies than we could ever dream of.
David
P.S. I've got to sign off now as midnight beckons and I need all the beauty sleep I can get. Have fun...
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Date: Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 18:54:10 (EST)
Poster: op
Email:
To: Katie
Subject: Re: oh dear, shades of obscure references (Re: GMJ -- Enjoy Your Life)
Message:
- what do you mean? About Samsara being sticky and no them and us anymore? Can you be more specific, or explain it in a different way.
I mean that in the early seventies when a lot of us received Knowledge, we became a separate, holier than thou, little elite. WE were the ones in the know, WE recognized the true master, the Satguru. We were the chosen ones, the only ones who would go to heaven, etc. etc. etc.
I won't even go into what side I took about that sort of stuff. I may have ideologically said that I believed in total equality, but I know I share a lot of the blame in marketing that notion.
So what I meant here is that we shouldn't get stuck to an old concept. I don't have time to go into an exposition of Samsara here, but basically, I meant only that I don't make any assumptions of holiness, wisdom, higher evolution, etc. etc. etc., and I wish David wouldn't presume that I mean things that way.
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Date: Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 19:58:24 (EST)
Poster: Rick
Email: rtaraday@hotmail.com
To: JW
Subject: Re: GMJ -- Enjoy Your Life
Message:
I had a conversation with a premie recently which reminded me of a number of comments that have been made in the newsgroup and the forum. They are the same, seemingly innocuous statements that Maharaji just says to 'enjoy your life' and that, really, there isn't anything else involved in being a premie. The statement goes something like:
'Maharaji says we're just to enjoy our life, that's all, nothing more -- he's not saying anything more.'
In fact, I have heard 'enjoy your life' or a similar phrase so consistently from premies that I suspect it is something that Maharaji says over and over, in my opinion, to gloss over what he is really doing.
To me, it sound like Perfect-Master-speak for 'Have a nice day.' I mean, come on -- enjoy your life -- so what? Most everyone I know is trying to enjoy their lives. Now, presumably, practicing meditation enables you to enjoy life MORE, though I certainly haven't seen any evidence of that (a lot of premies are very miserable and I certainly was much of the time I was a premie despite consistent practicing of knowledge) and to the extent it does to that by making you more relaxed or whatever, meditation techniques are available lots of places and M's are no better than anyone else's.
I do think that premies enjoy life more when they are in the presence of Maharaji, but that's not due to knowledge or meditation, that's cult-ism and the 'group high' that also happens lots of places like christian revivals, some rock concerts, and even at an Amway convention. As a premie, I certainly got high at those programs, and to an extent, I could re-create the high my thinking about how high I was, listening to the music I heard there, and longing for the next program.
I guess I believe that M and a lot of he premies are saying these bland, simple things, while all the time M and many of the premies are operating on another level, which is the devotional/gratitude thing, that M did do blatantly until the early 80s, but now does more subtly because it is less acceptable. I personally believe that the whole effort is phony and that M really requires more but he and the premies take great pains to make it appear simple, with no requirements except to 'enjoy life.' But what is really happening here?
You don't fly around the country and the world to go to his programs, or give money to someone who just tells you to enjoy your life, now do you? You don't kiss the feet of someone who just says that either.
In the Long Beach video from 1996 I watched, lots of very devotional songs were sung to M and so that element is definitely there, but, although the songs used 'devotion' and other such words, he, Maharahi, used the word 'gratitude' where he used to use the word 'devotion.' But he DID say that by giving gratitude to M, you INCREASE your experience of [and this is how he almost always describes it]: 'that love,' 'that joy,' 'that experience.' He used to use the word 'devotion' in the same way.
It's something you have to pull the layers off to see, but it's definitely there.
Comments, anyone?
JW
I haven't seen alot of premiedom since the early eighties, but I did notice that the heavy devotion went underground. Granted, "enjoy" means the big ENJOY, as in bliss, but either way, enjoy or ENJOY, the focus is off the great gift offered by Maharaji, in Miami in '77... devotion. That is, devotion, as in Krishna and Arjun devotion, or Ram and Hanuman devotion. The posts that followed yours in this thread seemed to prove your point: Instead of denying that devotion is the big ticket, emphasis was made on the distinction between enoy and ENJOY. Duhhh! Hello!!! (cruel sarcasm).
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Date: Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 20:09:11 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: op
Subject: Re: oh dear, shades of obscure references (Re: GMJ -- Enjoy Your Life)
Message:
Hi OP, I know what Samsara is (and if I don't I can always ask my dear friend Bobby) but I didn't understand the sticky part. I think I do now - do you mean don't get stuck in the past when premies assumed they were "different" or "superior" to people who had not received knowledge? If you do, then I "get" your message.
True regards,
Katie
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Date: Wed, Dec 17, 1997 at 00:03:18 (EST)
Poster: Michael
Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net
To: JW
Subject: Re: GMJ -- Enjoy Your Life
Message:
JW Wrote:
I do think that premies enjoy life more when they are in the presence of Maharaji, but that's not
due to knowledge or meditation, that's cult-ism and the 'group high' that also happens lots of
places like christian revivals, some rock concerts, and even at an Amway convention. As a
premie, I certainly got high at those programs, and to an extent, I could re-create the high my
thinking about how high I was, listening to the music I heard there, and longing for the next
program.
I grew up in a Pentacostal church, and I was well aware of the theatrics involved, especially at the moment of conversion, the 'altar call;' the use devotional singing
always intensified the experience. This was the same thing that went on at Festivals, and I must admit, was very much what was happening during darshan. I know that I was swept up in a wave of emotion, and I'll bet that most everyone else was, too. There is nothing wrong with admiting that we were swept away; we are human and subject to manipulation.
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Date: Wed, Dec 17, 1997 at 00:57:39 (EST)
Poster: CD
Email:
To: Michael
Subject: Re: GMJ -- Enjoy Your Life
Message:
The way a rock band can manipulate an audience into a particular mood.
Now that is real party manipulation at work.
It is time to sacrifice that devil guitar.
Admit it, how you can be swept away in the emotional manipulation of sex.
Dastardly chardonay, merlot and loco weed too.
Manipulated to a zone beyond the simplicity of water.
And the dreaded hashish birthday cake and dentist.
Is it even safe for humans to celebrate?
Live safely behind the white picket fence of rationalism.
We are subject to life, inflation, gravity and death.
But do celebrate New Years anyways!
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Date: Wed, Dec 17, 1997 at 03:18:54 (EST)
Poster: Annie
Email: aerily@aol.com
To: Michael
Subject: never could climb on the dustpan (Re: GMJ -- Enjoy Your Life)
Message:
I know that I was swept up in a wave of emotion, and I'll bet that most everyone else was, too. There is nothing wrong with admiting that we were swept away; we are human and subject to manipulation.
Truthfully -- I never was swept away. I TRIED to be. I couldn't. When people linked arms and sang at the end of big festivals, or shouted bolie thisnthat, I never did. I could not relate to it, did not feel it.
Nevertheless, deep in my awareness I have always had a recognition of Maharaji. This I cannot prove, justify, explain, defend. The first time I saw his picture, before I had heard a word about him, I had an unmistakeable sense that I had been waiting my whole life to meet him; it was a recognition which was undeniable, not rational.
I knew early on that what he offered me was real. I knew it. Even though I doubted and questioned it like crazy, I KNEW it! I knew I needed it, and wanted it. I did easily believe then he was the 'Lord of the Universe' -- but to me, it still makes as much sense as anything else. Anything is possible, though not necessarily explainable. That a "superior power" could incarnate and ... be whoever, however, whatever he/it felt like. And that if there was a chance in a million of such an occurrence, I would hate to miss it. Though I never think about whether he is, or is not, this or that, any more. I don't need to define him to recognize his value in my life.
As a "devotee" I always felt very much alone -- not lonely but alone, even in the midst of the community, or at festivals. I could never feel what other people seemed to be feeling -- and for a long time it puzzled me -- until I began to pay attention to what I WAS feeling, and learning, instead of what I wasn't feeling.
and when the quiet comes, I see
the treasure that I own
and when I look inside of me,
I see I'll never be alone
It's been real, 100%, consistently. Knowledge, Maharaji. Totally real, for me. Nothing and no one I have ever encountered, read, heard of, heard about, been inspired by, etc. has ever come close to how Maharaji has touched me.
Long before I heard of Maharaji, I had learned something about myself, about my own mind (ie, my thoughts): that it's not necessarily my best friend. That my mind "played tricks" on me, so to speak; and that very often it was my own thoughts which discouraged or condemned me. So I had learned to question my thoughts & perceptions: to weigh, to feel, to consider, to look from all angles. I had learned that there was another part of me, a feeling consciousness within me, what I called my heart. This I was much more inclined to trust than my fluctuating perceptions or intellectual analyses. An instinct in me.
Making the decision to receive Knowledge was, for me, deciding to take a chance. It was trusting in Life itself, ie "God", and my own heart -- not anything else -- that if I ventured forth with trust and a pure intention, nobody could rip me off. My instinct said take a chance; my thoughts said but...but...what about this and that and this and whhhoooooomaybe he's the devil..... but my gut feeling: take a chance. Do not be a slave of fear.
That instinct has never wavered; thoughts, feelings, perspectives change like the moon and tides. There have been days I have felt great love, there have been days of anger, days of indifference; but my gut certainty about Maharaji and knowledge has not faltered. I would hope one day to live fully by what I believe, actually practice Knowledge consistently, refine my own efforts, give as much or more than I am taking; maybe then I would know what all those saints wrote about, the devotion; but for now, my tiny window on truth is more precious than anything.
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Date: Wed, Dec 17, 1997 at 06:33:51 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email:
To: Annie
Subject: Re: never could climb on the dustpan (Re: GMJ -- Enjoy Your Life)
Message:
My grandfather ran a grocery in a little town in Central Europe, before WWII. Among his legacy I found a well-read book in German about Sri Ramakrishna and his disciples.
My mother was a Partisan in WWII, fighting against the Nazis. She was crossing a snow-swept mountainside once, and at a road crossing in the middle of nowhere, there was a little battered copy of Tagore's 'Gitanjali' lying in the snow. It became her companion in the years of war and terror.
I learned about this after I received Knowledge. I still have those books.
I also felt 'This is it.' when I first heard about Maharaji and the Knowledge, despite the somewhat odd and raggedy people I encountered, and the funny photographs of the pudgy Guru. What he was SAYING hit right home. It felt like an open road with minor obstacles here and there but stretching into infinity. That feeling, or intuition if you will, has never let me down so far.
Jhumri Taliaya, India on April 15th, 1975. This was when he first returned to India after the ‘holy family’ denounced him for marrying.
‘That's why, even though they claim I've been doing all these weird things, I am still walking the path of Knowledge. Does anybody dare stop me? No! Because I am truly spreading the Knowledge. They're spreading falsehood and I am spreading the Truth. If anyone wants to stop me, he should go and stop them first. Because I am spreading
Truth, and I am spreading it right now, and I'll go on spreading it as long as there is some life left in this body. I'll go on spreading this Truth because nobody else has taken the responsibility of spreading it and bringing peace to the world but me. This is my duty, and that's why I am sticking to it.’
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Date: Wed, Dec 17, 1997 at 11:21:51 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email: joger02@aol.com
To: Michael
Subject: Re: GMJ -- Enjoy Your Life
Message:
I grew up in a Pentacostal church, and I was well aware of the theatrics involved, especially at the moment of conversion, the 'altar call;' the use devotional singing
always intensified the experience. This was the same thing that went on at Festivals, and I must admit, was very much what was happening during darshan. I know that I was swept up in a wave of emotion, and I'll bet that most everyone else was, too. There is nothing wrong with admiting that we were swept away; we are human and subject to manipulation.
I agree, Michael. And I don't object to people going to programs and getting high, as long as they understand where the experience is coming from. Unfortunately, a lot of premies believe that the experience is coming from the grace of Guru Maharaji instead of from the group, and I think Maharaji capitalizes on that for his own benefit. He isn't the only one using that gimick, but that doesn't make it any less true.
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Date: Wed, Dec 17, 1997 at 11:46:41 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email: joger02@aol.com
To: Annie
Subject: Re: never could climb on the dustpan (Re: GMJ -- Enjoy Your Life)
Message:
Thanks for your comments, Annie, I can tell you are expressing what you believe your experience is and what is true for you. I particularly responded to your statement that at one point you stopped worrying about what others were apparently feeling and paid attention to what you were feeling yourself. I had a similar experience, but I guess with opposite results.
I DID get caught up in the "group high," which Maharaji played to the hilt, although, towards the end of my involvement, when I finally DID pay attention to what was actually happening to me instead of what M and the premies said was supposed to be happening to me, the group lost it's grip on me. I recall Guru Puja in 1982. IT was a "super-devotional" program, like so many others at the Miami Beach Convention Center. Maharaji, once again, like all the other programs, gave darshan. I had just gone through a very traumatic, repressive, experience instigated by Mr. David Smith in the San Francisco ashram, which was so awful and inhumane, that it made me question, really for the first time, whether M had any control over, or even gave a shit about, the premies who were trying to devote their lives to him.
I recall that on the last night of the program, Maharaji began to appear to me as a very small, rather odd, man, who spoke incoherently in a squeaky voice and to whom I had no attraction whatsoever. The premies seemed more interested in getting high and dancing on their chairs as M, stripped to the waist and shaking his flabby breasts, encouraged them. The music continued and I began to feel more and more detached and more and more free. It was a wonderful, exciting, feeling, like I could begin to breathe again after being suffocated for so long. It took almost another year before I began to think for myself enough to get beyond the fear that, like you said, I might miss the chance to serve god incarnate, and that, as M said, a ton of rotten vegetables would rot inside of me, or, like he also said, that if I moved out of the ashram it was equivalent to moving into a sewage pit, but I was finally able to get away.
And things have only gotten better since. But it took getting away, with some time as a perspective for me to see that the so-called "connection" I felt with M was an illusion, although, and this is the tricky part, it felt very REAL to me at the time.
So, Annie, this is another perspective and thanks for your comments, although you did misspell "unmistakable."
JW
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Date: Wed, Dec 17, 1997 at 11:52:32 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email: Joger02@aol.com
To: Mili
Subject: Re: never could climb on the dustpan (Re: GMJ -- Enjoy Your Life)
Message:
Mili, I remember that satang so vividly. That's the one I mentioned in another post about Bob Mishler. Guru Maharaji gave the satsang in Hindi and it was translated and read into a tape by Charles Cameron. Then it was sent around to all the communities, also with a tape of Bob Mishler talking about the India trip and what happened there [including the statement that M had brought a dead baby back to life, but I later heard the baby was not dead in the first place.]
I must point out, however, that there was some controversy raised as to whether the satsang was accurately translated and whether Mr. Cameron or others added their own interpretations. I don't know whether that actually happened or not.
JW
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Date: Wed, Dec 17, 1997 at 13:53:58 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: Mili
Subject: Re: never could climb on the dustpan (Re: GMJ -- Enjoy Your Life)
Message:
BTW, in that satsang, Guru Maharaj Ji was specifically referring to the other members of his family (except, I guess, Raja Ji).
JW
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Date: Wed, Dec 17, 1997 at 14:04:06 (EST)
Poster: Rob
Email:
To: Annie
Subject: Re: never could climb on the dustpan (Re: GMJ -- Enjoy Your Life)
Message:
As a 'devotee' I always felt very much alone -- not lonely but alone, even in the midst of the community, or at festivals. I could never feel what other people seemed to be feeling -- and for a long time it puzzled me -- until I began to pay attention to what I WAS feeling, and learning, instead of what I wasn't feeling.
and when the quiet comes, I see
the treasure that I own
and when I look inside of me,
I see I'll never be alone
Well said. Spoken in a language that I can understand.
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Date: Wed, Dec 17, 1997 at 18:39:47 (EST)
Poster: op
Email:
To: Katie, mosty, and Annie
Subject: Re: now I do apologize (Re: GMJ -- Enjoy Your Life)
Message:
I started to write a reply to Annie's never could climb... post, and said below to Katie that I was posting it. But I got interrupted at mid-writing, and haven't had a chance to go back and finish it.
It has to do with feeling alone, feeling separate from the premie world, and finding my connection to the inner world ... so I thought it was relevant. I'll try to finish it and post it later tonight.
greetings to all
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Date: Wed, Dec 17, 1997 at 21:56:05 (EST)
Poster: a
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: never could climb on the dustpan (Re: GMJ -- Enjoy Your Life)
Message:
So, Annie, this is another perspective and thanks for your comments,
although you did misspell 'unmistakable.' AAAAAAAAAAHHHHHGGGG!!!!
i am so ashamed
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Date: Thurs, Dec 18, 1997 at 03:28:53 (EST)
Poster: op
Email:
To: Annie
Subject: Re: never could climb on the dustpan (Re: GMJ -- Enjoy Your Life)
Message:
Dear Annie:
When I read something like your post, I wonder how anyone could disagree - what corners they have to turn to find fault.
I'm sure it's not needed, but here is a bit of my experience:
I always considered myself an outsider, a rebel, outside of the main stream. That was great when taking a stand against racism or nuclear weapons, but it provided for some devastating social experiences. I've never been good at small talk, and when I went to any sort of group activity as a teenager (basketball games, dances, chatty parties, etc.) I tried to play the part, but most often felt excluded from the great experience of the 'gang'.
I can remember feeling that same thing at satsang - on one occasion specifically, when everyone was chanting 'Jai Satchitanand' as a song. There was a feeling of that group emotion, 'they' were all swept up, but I just couldn't relate. All I wanted is the truly intimate experience of being with Maharaji. I hadn't joined a group, I no longer cared what the great masses were up to. My experience was private, individual. I think I never felt so alone, or longed for his presence so passionately.
I got my wish, that night. Somehow I got to the residence and one of those question and answer sessions that used to happen then. I won't go into the details of my communication with him that night. But a very important part of the awakening I had was realizing that these many people and I had nothing that held us together as a group. I no longer knew (or cared) what each of them was experiencing. M was there for me, and seemingly he was there for each of the others as well. But the only thing I know for sure is my own connection to him.
And, oddly, this freed me. I didn't have to play at being someone else in front of the group. I didn't have to be anyone other than my own real self. I COULDN'T put on a mask for M, because he knew me more intimately than I knew myself. And there was no reason to put on a mask for anyone else, because that aspect of social life no longer mattered.
I found that, among other things, this made me a better listener, a better friend. When someone spoke to me, I could drink in their words, see where they were coming from, without worrying about what my reaction was going to represent to them, or what answer I should give that would most impress, or SEEM most caring, etc.
And I also discovered that I WAS able to be 'swept away' during programs, when surrounded by hundreds or thousands of people. But not because I was riding on others' emotional response - quite the contrary. Because I was free to be myself, not having to rely on what those around me were experiencing.
I can relate to every part of Annie's post - the moment of saying 'Could this be?' and my very conscious decision to take a chance. I didn't know whether I was jumping off a cliff or walking into heaven, but there was something about Maharaji that had allowed me to trust him, that made me, right before the Knowledge session, say to myself: 'If this is IT, if this is what I've been searching for, I have nothing more to do with my life but to dedicate it to this experience.' The 'if' was still there, but the conviction and the promise were there, too. And it turned out to be more than I could ever have dreamed of.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 18, 1997 at 12:40:34 (EST)
Poster: Rob
Email: vanderka@gis.nrcan.gc.ca
To: op
Subject: Re: never could climb on the dustpan (Re: GMJ -- Enjoy Your Life)
Message:
I really enjoyed your post to Annie about not being part of the group. I think you two have touched on something that may (or may not -- and who cares) have somethng to do with why many people get into this and find THEMSELVES in a cult. Then they stay and don't enjoy themselves (so I heard some here say) or they leave and tell everyone they KNOW it's a cult. Such is the wonder of it all.
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Date: Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 05:07:25 (EST)
Poster: David
Email: d@vid
To: Everyone
Subject: Blind Bob...
Message:
In response to Bob's post buried somewhere in the depths...
I expressed surprise that you would take a message meant for GMJ and post it here. It is my opinion that messages not posted for the public, written to a particular person, are like letters. Are you saying that being an ex-premie site means you ignore common etiquette?
Are you blind Bob? Did you not notice that the letters written to the site would appear on a web page accessible to all and sundry? The only way your lord and master will read your purple prose is if we go to the trouble and expense of displaying it. This seems especially true now that BigM has closed down Harlan's pro-premie site. Ironic, isn't it?
I asked Bob whether he feels the techniques would work eqyually well for someone who isn't a Maharaji toe-kisser...
As for your question, I'll be happy to answer if you tell me why you ask?
I ask because it's a simple test of your sincerity. Maharaji says that the techniques won't work unless you devote your life to him. I left the toe-kissing game some 25 years back and the techniques still work as well as they ever did. The only difference is that now I don't have to swallow the unmitigated crap that Maharaji and his drones spew out. (Forgive my lack of decorum - no doubt you'll take it as an excuse not to answer the question.)
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Date: Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 06:28:32 (EST)
Poster: Annie
Email: aerily@aol.com
To: David
Subject: Blind ridiculing the blind (Re: Blind Bob...)
Message:
Why so rude? What for? Your sneering sarcasm is absolutely unnecessary, except perhaps for those who thrive on cruelty.
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Date: Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 09:19:40 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Annie
Subject: Re: Blind ridiculing the blind (Re: Blind Bob...)
Message:
Why so rude? What for? Your sneering sarcasm is absolutely unnecessary, except perhaps for those who thrive on cruelty.
Dear Annie,
Let me defend David here. He really is a good person (ant not one "who thrives on cruelty", although he does also say sarcastic and profane things at times. And sometimes these things hurt peoples' feelings.
Isn't everyone a contradiction sometimes?
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Date: Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 10:14:58 (EST)
Poster: Rob Vanderkam
Email: vanderka@gis.nrcan.gc.ca
To: Annie
Subject: Re: Blind ridiculing the blind (Re: Blind Bob...)
Message:
Why so rude? What for? Your sneering sarcasm is absolutely unnecessary, except perhaps for those who thrive on cruelty.
Hi Annie,
I've had about 3 or 4 exchanges with David since I found this site this past weekend, and if he's been anything, he's been consistently rude and malicious. I'm sure he's a fine fellow to his wife and children and friends, but I for one don't have a need for his attitude.
I know that in my life, treating people like that has not led to having a successful social and family life. I predict that his site will only serve to spread negative into the world since positive folk will often go elsewhere. Ah well, such is life. The human condition is to make cults and religion everywhere.
I won't be here to see, but I also predict that I will be accused (by some) of calling *everyone* here negative, or of passing judgement and accusation instead of expressing my opinion.
Have fun,
Rob
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Date: Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 12:53:24 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email: joger02@aol.com
To: Rob Vanderkam
Subject: Re: Blind ridiculing the blind (Re: Blind Bob...)
Message:
Rob, if you think people who dish and use sarcasm at the expense of others can't have fabulous social lives, you obviously haven't spent much time around a group of drag queens.
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Date: Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 13:30:16 (EST)
Poster: Annie
Email: aerily@aol.com
To: Katie
Subject: Re: Blind ridiculing the blind (Re: Blind Bob...)
Message:
Isn't everyone a contradiction sometimes?Katie, perhaps so; but one has a choice; and if one inadvertently insults another, there is opportunity to
offer an apology.
I am not assaulting David, therefore he does not need any defense; and I maintain that the use of sarcasm & ridicule is not necessary; it is only useful for hurting, and for starting wars.
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Date: Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 13:47:33 (EST)
Poster: Rick
Email: rtaraday@hotmail.com
To: Annie
Subject: Re: Blind ridiculing the blind (Re: Blind Bob...)
Message:
Why so rude? What for? Your sneering sarcasm is absolutely unnecessary, except perhaps for those who thrive on cruelty.
Sarcasm can be effective in conveying feelings that are unaccepted and denied by those one is communicating to. It is more often a sign of having been hurt than the cause of hurting someone else. It's also an expression of anger, in this case about being violated by someone that is being praised. It is also the backlash of the very denial of anger and other things "negative" that Maharaji perpetuates. Profanity is also effective in conveying legitimate feelings.
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Date: Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 13:50:11 (EST)
Poster: Rick
Email: rtaraday@hotmail.com
To: Annie
Subject: Re: Blind ridiculing the blind (Re: Blind Bob...)
Message:
Why so rude? What for? Your sneering sarcasm is absolutely unnecessary, except perhaps for those who thrive on cruelty.
Sarcasm can be effective in conveying feelings that are unaccepted and denied by those one is communicating to. It is more often a sign of having been hurt than the cause of hurting someone else. It's also an expression of anger, in this case about being violated by someone that is being praised. It is also the backlash of the very denial of anger and other things "negative" that Maharaji perpetuates. Profanity is also effective in conveying legitimate feelings. Cruelty involves enjoying other people's pain. It isn't cruel to be angry, and just because it isn't comfortable for the recipient doesn't mean the person getting angry is cruel.
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Date: Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 13:58:53 (EST)
Poster: Annie
Email: aerily@aol.com
To: Rick
Subject: Re: Blind ridiculing the blind (Re: Blind Bob...)
Message:
I do not agree with you. It is a means of nurturing and perpetuating bad feeling; it is usually highly ineffective communication, ESPECIALLY when directed at someone other than the individual towards whom you feel the anger. Even among friends, and meant with humor, it can wound. Why bother?
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Date: Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 14:07:44 (EST)
Poster: Annie
Email:
To: Rick
Subject: Re: Blind ridiculing the blind (Re: Blind Bob...)
Message:
It isn't cruel to be angry, and just because it isn't comfortable for the recipient doesn't mean the person getting angry is cruel. If one is aware that expressing one's anger in a particular fashion may be hurtful to another; and if one intentionally expresses the feelings, regardless of that awareness; and if one feels pleasure in such an expression, I would say that constitutes cruelty.
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Date: Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 14:21:19 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email: joger02@aol.com
To: Rick
Subject: Re: Blind ridiculing the blind (Re: Blind Bob...)
Message:
Sarcasm can be effective in conveying feelings that are unaccepted and denied by those one is communicating to. It is more often a sign of having been hurt than the cause of hurting someone else. It's also an expression of anger, in this case about being violated by someone that is being praised. It is also the backlash of the very denial of anger and other things 'negative' that Maharaji perpetuates. Profanity is also effective in conveying legitimate feelings.
I couldn't agree more. Sarcasm is especially effective when used to describe the wealthy and powerful. It has been used that way, very effectively for thousands of years. Sarcasm CAN also be cruel, especially when it is used against the poor and powerless. I think the issue here may be that some ex-premies, like myself and as Rick said so effectively, lived for years refusing to even consider a negative thing about Maharaji. Also, in the Mahararji cult, and in a vein similar to what Annie is saying, "negativity" or "sarcasm" was disparaged. As a premie, one of the WORST things that could happen to you was to be labeled "negative" because you had the audacity to state your own opinion, especially when it came to pointing out that the emperor had no clothes. So, sarcasm, towards Maharaji, and those who defend him, seem appropriate.
So, Annie, I disagree that sarcasm is always bad and I have never heard of it starting a war.
JW
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Date: Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 14:31:49 (EST)
Poster: A
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: Blind ridiculing the blind (Re: Blind Bob...)
Message:
So, Annie, I disagree that sarcasm is always badJoe, Joe... you always misquote me!
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Date: Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 14:38:20 (EST)
Poster: Rick
Email: rtaraday@hotmail.com
To: Annie
Subject: Re: Blind ridiculing the blind (Re: Blind Bob...)
Message:
It isn't cruel to be angry, and just because it isn't comfortable for the recipient doesn't mean the person getting angry is cruel. If one is aware that expressing one's anger in a particular fashion may be hurtful to another; and if one intentionally expresses the feelings, regardless of that awareness; and if one feels pleasure in such an expression, I would say that constitutes cruelty.
Well, yeah. But I sensed no enjoyment from the sarcastic post, just someone who's pissed off. Often the pleasure from such an expression is release. If you're pissed off and don't express it freely, then you're hurting yourself (creating repression and frustration). Accepting one's own anger can make it easier to accept it from others, and not feel as hurt by it. To not express yourself because of someone else's reaction is what they call codependent. And we definitely wouldn't want to be codependent, would we? :)
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Date: Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 14:42:43 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email: Joger02@aol.com
To: JW
Subject: Re: Blind ridiculing the blind (Re: Blind Bob...)
Message:
As an example of how sarcasm and satire can be hurtful, just think of Rush Limbaugh talking about welfare mothers. When he attacks Bill Clinton, that is a different story, whether you agree with him or not. But his comments about welfare mothers are cruel and hateful, primarily because they are directed at people who are relatively powerless and without the means to defend themselves, or correct the characterization (lazy, immoral, etc.) he uses.
Whatever you think of Maharaji, he certainly does NOT fit into the weak and powerless category.
JW
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Date: Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 14:46:29 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email: joger02@aol.com
To: A
Subject: Re: Blind ridiculing the blind (Re: Blind Bob...)
Message:
So, Annie, I disagree that sarcasm is always badJoe, Joe... you always misquote me!
I WASN'T quoting you, Annie, but if I misstated what you meant, let me know. HOWEVER, you DID write:
"It (sarcasm) is a means of nuturing and perpetuating bad feeling."
Am I wrong in interpreting that statement that you think that's a bad thing?
JW
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Date: Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 15:52:10 (EST)
Poster: op
Email:
To: Rick, Annie, David, JW
Subject: Re: Blind ridiculing the blind (Re: Blind Bob...)
Message:
Funny that David's off the board early in this discussion. Maybe he just signed off, but since his comments are the center of the discussion...
In my corner I see sarcasm & cruelty very often reflected from those who are not quite sure of their position. When caught with hands in cookie jars, we all say 'I didn't do it' - and then go on to blame the next one down our pecking order (or perhaps the one above). When parents, brothers, sisters, do something we disagree with, venomous hatred is spewed like you could never aim at a stranger.
I don't applaud David's use of venom here, but it doesn't surprise me that he lashes out.
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Date: Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 16:09:16 (EST)
Poster: David
Email: d@vid
To: Annie
Subject: Re: Blind anger? (Re: Blind Bob...)
Message:
Annie rites: Why so rude? What for? Your sneering sarcasm is absolutely unnecessary, except perhaps for those who thrive on cruelty.
Hang on a minute Annie. How was I being rude, let alone cruel? By saying that Rob was blind to the obvious fact that he was posting a message on a publicly accessable web site? I'd say I was merely stating the obvious. If you think my manner was somewhat brusque, then that's merely a reflection of how I feel about Rob's sanctamonious flatterings of the fat one.
I came away from my three years as a toe-kisser relatively unharmed. But others won't be so lucky. If you think it's rude to point out the contradictions in the crap Maharaji spouts, then I'd suggest that the Internet isn't the place for one of so tender sensibilities.
As for Rob, why won't he answer my simple question? I went to the trouble of posting his ode to BigM, now I think a little payment is due.
David
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Date: Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 16:23:44 (EST)
Poster: david
Email: d@vid
To: odl
Subject: Re: Blind ridiculing the blind (Re: Blind Bob...)
Message:
Odl writes: Funny that David's off the board early in this discussion.
It's the time difference odl. That's really why I prefer the newsgroup to the bulletin board. It's like I'm always coming to the party too early or too late. But it seems you're on board now and I'm having an evening babysitting so perhaps we can get something going.
In my corner I see sarcasm & cruelty very often reflected from those who are not quite sure of their position. I don't applaud David's use of venom here, but it doesn't surprise me that he lashes out.
Am I missing something here? How have I been so rude or venomous? But I'd be more interested in having a straight answer to a straight question... do you think the techniques would work if one believed that Maharaji was a charlatan?
David
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Date: Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 16:41:34 (EST)
Poster: odl
Email:
To: david
Subject: Re: Blind ridiculing the blind (Re: Blind Bob...)
Message:
Hi David -
Actually, you're absolutely right. I was so caught up in the thread that I lost sight of the original post. It was really not cruel and malicious (could be seen that way by a first-time reader, but compared to some...)
So I'll eat my words. Enjoy the babysit.
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Date: Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 16:44:08 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Rob Vanderkam
Subject: To Rob (Re: Blind Bob...)
Message:
Hi Rob - I am somewhat upset that you are apparently leaving the site without answering my post to you below (under the "sucker" thread - should have changed the title). I did write it for you since everybody else has seemingly heard about my experiences ad infinitum and are probably not interested any more. Also JW wrote a post answering some questions that you had. Neither post was "attacking" (or at least I hope you wouldn't interpret them as such) - in fact, I think they were "conversational" as you asked for. Or at least as conversational as you can get in a forum.
Regards,
Katie
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Date: Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 16:44:19 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email:
To: david
Subject: Re: Blind ridiculing the blind (Re: Blind Bob...)
Message:
David, you are so full of it - prejudice and speculation.
I think we can agree that what Maharaji is basically doing is initiating people into the techniques of meditation and he advocates their use.
If the techniques can be as harmful as you say, don't you think it's irresponsible of you to publish them on your website??? (And in quite an ambiguous fashion, too, by the way, quite prone to haphazard interpretation.)
You are the one who's full fo contradictions, man.
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Date: Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 16:44:44 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email:
To: david
Subject: Re: Blind ridiculing the blind (Re: Blind Bob...)
Message:
David, you are so full of it - prejudice and speculation.
I think we can agree that what Maharaji is basically doing is initiating people into the techniques of meditation and he advocates their use.
If the techniques can be as harmful as you say, don't you think it's irresponsible of you to publish them on your website??? (And in quite an ambiguous fashion, too, by the way, quite prone to haphazard interpretation.)
You are the one who's full of contradictions, man.
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Date: Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 16:50:57 (EST)
Poster: david
Email: d@vid
To: odl
Subject: Re: Blind ridiculing the blind (Re: Blind Bob...)
Message:
So I'll eat my words.
Thanks odl, I was beginning to believe all that crap that was flying my way. So go on, let's have some light-hearted banter (I'm sure Anonymouse the Angry Archiver isn't listening), and give me your considered answer to my question. I know we've probably been over this ground before, but I'm not sure we ever reached a conclusion (and don't say you don't know).
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Date: Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 17:02:50 (EST)
Poster: David
Email: d@vid
To: Masher Mili
Subject: Re: Blind ridiculing the blind (Re: Blind Bob...)
Message:
Masher stated David, you are so full of it - prejudice and speculation. I think we can agree that what Maharaji is basically doing is initiating people into the techniques of meditation and he advocates their use.
You never cease to amaze me Mili. If that was all the fat one was doing, I'd be more than happy. Good luck to him if he was just selling a package of meditation techniques. But you know and I know and everyone else with half a brain cell in the heads knows that this isn't all that Maharaji is doing. He's set himself up as a cult leader and he's making a very good living at it. He's not in the same league as Rev Moon or the Maharishi, but it's not for the want of trying.
I think it's you who's full fo contradictions, man.
David
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Date: Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 17:09:49 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email:
To: David
Subject: Re: Blind ridiculing the blind (Re: Blind Bob...)
Message:
Masher stated David, you are so full of it - prejudice and speculation. I think we can agree that what Maharaji is basically doing is initiating people into the techniques of meditation and he advocates their use.
You never cease to amaze me Mili. If that was all the fat one was doing, I'd be more than happy. Good luck to him if he was just selling a package of meditation techniques. But you know and I know and everyone else with half a brain cell in the heads knows that this isn't all that Maharaji is doing. He's set himself up as a cult leader and he's making a very good living at it. He's not in the same league as Rev Moon or the Maharishi, but it's not for the want of trying.
I think it's you who's full fo contradictions, man.
David
Look, dumb one, he is the EXPERT for the meditation.
Are you?
He takes responsibility for it.
Do you?
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Date: Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 17:50:24 (EST)
Poster: David
Email: d@vid
To: Masher
Subject: Re: Blind ridiculing the blind (Re: Blind Bob...)
Message:
Masher said: Look, dumb one, he is the EXPERT for the meditation. Are you? He takes responsibility for it. Do you?
Sorry Masher, you lost me there. How exactly does the fat one take responsibility for meditation?
David
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Date: Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 18:04:29 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Annie
Subject: Re: Blind ridiculing the blind (Re: Blind Bob...)
Message:
Isn't everyone a contradiction sometimes?Katie, perhaps so; but one has a choice; and if one inadvertently insults another, there is opportunity to
offer an apology.
I am not assaulting David, therefore he does not need any defense; and I maintain that the use of sarcasm & ridicule is not necessary; it is only useful for hurting, and for starting wars.
Dear Annie - I don't want to get into a big fight with you, but I'd like to explain my position here. I defended David because you said he was rude, used "sneering sarcasm", and implied that he was possible one of "those who thrive on cruelty." You may not consider this a verbal assault, but I would define it as one. Would you consider it a verbal assault if someone said those things about you? I would.
I do agree that David is sarcastic at times, is even rude at times, but I don't think he sneers at people, and I certainly don't think he thrives on cruelty.
All I was trying to say is that I like David a lot and I would like people to know that he's a good person, and would ask that they not judge him as a result of a few encounters with him on the forum or website. (I'm NOT saying that you or Rob did this...)
Regards from Katie
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Date: Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 18:13:36 (EST)
Poster: Y
Email:
To: Annie
Subject: Re: Blind ridiculing the blind (Re: Blind Bob...)
Message:
David is definitely a jerk at times.
But he feels so wise for not be a 'toe kisser'.
He is so brave in his little world.
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Date: Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 18:40:54 (EST)
Poster: odl
Email:
To: david
Subject: Re: Blind ridiculing the blind (Re: Blind Bob...)
Message:
I'd be more interested in having a straight answer to a straight question... do you think the techniques would work if one believed that Maharaji was a charlatan?
Okay, but first - what does JW have against me? Aside from the fact that I seem slimy and elusive?
I don't doubt that the techniques would work as techniques. I tried similar techniques before I received Knowledge - yes really. And I did have experiences with them.
My opinion, though (mine, notice - this is not gospel, nor pearls, nor even a mission statement) is that they take you only so far, and as in an elevator.
After I received Knowledge, I was utterly confused, because I HAD known these various techniques, and they had never seemed particularly cosmic to me. (Of course, a lot of things had become cosmic at one point or another through the ingestion of a few foreign substances.)
However, practicing the techniques the way I was shown in the Knowledge session and doing service brought me an experience that was more like getting out of the elevator and becoming completely immersed.
I had always doubted that I could have a real experience of bliss, nirvana, whatchacallit - I was separate, different, an outsider. But I did, and do.
There is no doubt for me that Maharaji has been the catalyst for many of my experiences.
This is hard to write, not only because it's so elusive by its very nature, but because it's subjective. If others can get to where they want without Maharaji, that's great. But we have no way to measure who gets where, do we? And of course, most of us will claim, at any given moment, that we're exactly where we want to be (even if a few minutes down the road we say - where the hell was I just before?)
Bad answer, I know. Rambling and inconclusive. But I want to get this to you before you go to bed (hopefully) and now I have to go out...
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Date: Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 18:41:15 (EST)
Poster: David
Email: d@vid
To: Y
Subject: Re: Blind ridiculing the blind (Re: Blind Bob...)
Message:
David is definitely a jerk at times. But he feels so wise for not be a 'toe kisser'. He is so brave in his little world.
Y oh Y are you so shy Y? Have you no name, oh pot who calls this kettle black? Come out from under your stone and tell us what you're so scared of.
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Date: Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 18:49:56 (EST)
Poster: Katie - partially off topic
Email:
To: David
Subject: to David (Re: Blind Bob...)
Message:
Y oh Y are you so shy Y? Have you no name, oh pot who calls this kettle black? Come out from under your stone and tell us what you're so scared of.
I think it possibly might be Yves but I am not sure. Sorry Yves if I have slandered you.
But anyway, David, please answer my e-mail. I know you're out there somewhere....
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Date: Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 19:01:25 (EST)
Poster: David
Email: d@vid
To: Katie - partially off topic
Subject: Re: to David (Re: Blind Bob...)
Message:
Katie suspects I think it possibly might be Yves but I am not sure. Sorry Yves if I have slandered you.
No, it couldn't possibly be Yves. He's a decent, straightforward chap who wouldn't stoop to such name calling.
But anyway, David, please answer my e-mail. I know you're out there somewhere.... I have answered it Katie. And I'm now looking forward to breaking the good tidings to all our regular readers and contributors.
David
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Date: Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 19:16:11 (EST)
Poster: Rob
Email:
To: david
Subject: Re: Blind ridiculing the blind (Re: Blind Bob...)
Message:
In my corner I see sarcasm & cruelty very often reflected from those who are not quite sure of their position. I don't applaud David's use of venom here, but it doesn't surprise me that he lashes out.
Am I missing something here? How have I been so rude or venomous? But I'd be more interested in having a straight answer to a straight question... do you think the techniques would work if one believed that Maharaji was a charlatan?
David
Hi David,
No shortage of suckers
Are you blind Bob?
(Forgive my lack of decorum - no doubt
you'll take it as an excuse not to answer the question.)
Am I blind Bob? No, that's someone else.
Will I take your goading tone as an excuse not to answer? I don't need an excuse not to answer.
Yes you definitely have a goading tone. Are you married? Do you use it on your wife? Are you mad at me? Did I do something I should apologise for? People here have said you are a nice guy. Why are you being so rude? Is something bothering you.
Rob
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Date: Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 19:20:14 (EST)
Poster: Rob
Email:
To: Katie
Subject: Re: To Rob (Re: Blind Bob...)
Message:
Hi Rob - I am somewhat upset that you are apparently leaving the site without answering my post to you below (under the 'sucker' thread - should have changed the title). I did write it for you since everybody else has seemingly heard about my experiences ad infinitum and are probably not interested any more. Also JW wrote a post answering some questions that you had. Neither post was 'attacking' (or at least I hope you wouldn't interpret them as such) - in fact, I think they were 'conversational' as you asked for. Or at least as conversational as you can get in a forum.
Regards,
Katie
Hi Katie,
Sorry about not answering. I don't have tons of time to do this. Can you give me a quickie overview of what yous aid before? I'll be around for an hour then back tomorrow maybe.
Rob
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Date: Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 19:22:59 (EST)
Poster: Rick
Email: rtaraday@hotmail.com
To: op
Subject: Re: Blind ridiculing the blind (Re: Blind Bob...)
Message:
Funny that David's off the board early in this discussion. Maybe he just signed off, but since his comments are the center of the discussion...
In my corner I see sarcasm & cruelty very often reflected from those who are not quite sure of their position. When caught with hands in cookie jars, we all say 'I didn't do it' - and then go on to blame the next one down our pecking order (or perhaps the one above). When parents, brothers, sisters, do something we disagree with, venomous hatred is spewed like you could never aim at a stranger.
I don't applaud David's use of venom here, but it doesn't surprise me that he lashes out.
How sure one is of their position may not reflect how valid one's position is. Many things are reflected from people who aren't quite sure of their position, including kindness and love. It isn't true that everyone blames someone else when caught with their hand in the cookie jar. It's reasonable that we get the most angry with those who are closest to us; but I don't see the relevance to this thread. I see cruelty most often associated with coldness and lack of emotion, not sarcasm. I usually see sarcasm connected with protest of some kind.
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Date: Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 19:55:53 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email: joger02@aol.com
To: odl
Subject: Re: Blind ridiculing the blind (Re: Blind Bob...)
Message:
I'd be more interested in having a straight answer to a straight question... do you think the techniques would work if one believed that Maharaji was a charlatan?
Okay, but first - what does JW have against me? Aside from the fact that I seem slimy and elusive?
I don't doubt that the techniques would work as techniques. I tried similar techniques before I received Knowledge - yes really. And I did have experiences with them.
My opinion, though (mine, notice - this is not gospel, nor pearls, nor even a mission statement) is that they take you only so far, and as in an elevator.
After I received Knowledge, I was utterly confused, because I HAD known these various techniques, and they had never seemed particularly cosmic to me. (Of course, a lot of things had become cosmic at one point or another through the ingestion of a few foreign substances.)
However, practicing the techniques the way I was shown in the Knowledge session and doing service brought me an experience that was more like getting out of the elevator and becoming completely immersed.
I had always doubted that I could have a real experience of bliss, nirvana, whatchacallit - I was separate, different, an outsider. But I did, and do.
There is no doubt for me that Maharaji has been the catalyst for many of my experiences.
This is hard to write, not only because it's so elusive by its very nature, but because it's subjective. If others can get to where they want without Maharaji, that's great. But we have no way to measure who gets where, do we? And of course, most of us will claim, at any given moment, that we're exactly where we want to be (even if a few minutes down the road we say - where the hell was I just before?)
Bad answer, I know. Rambling and inconclusive. But I want to get this to you before you go to bed (hopefully) and now I have to go out...
I don't have anything against you, OP. I'm sure you are a very nice person. I just disagreed with a couple of statements you made -- the "Jim Wannabee" statement being the most notable, but, alas, I have to pick up the pieces and move on with my life and cannot dwell on these things. I'm sure there are support groups for people like me.
But I do have a question regarding your response to David. Are you saying that it is Maharaji's grace that gets you on the "elevator," or is it the inspiration you get from him, like some people claim to get from Billy Graham?
I can relate to the "immersion" experience. After I received knowledge, I, like many others, totally uprooted my life, cut all my ties to everyone and everything, and tried to put myself in a situation in which the practice of knowledge, satsang, service and meditation, took up almost all my time, with everything else kept to an absolute minimum. Hence, I moved into the ashram, went to satsang virtually every night for a good 10 years, did as much "service" as I could, meditated the required 1 hour each morning and night and tried to remember holy name the rest of the time, and, beginning with Guru Puja in London in 1973, I went to every single program Maharaji held in the States and Canada, and one in Rome, that the mission would allow the ashram residents to attend. Talk about total immersion!
And I felt like that put me on the elevator too. When you make such drastic changes in your life, at least for me, the experience is profound. There is a feeling of "lightness" or "freedom" because all your responsibilities and previous identity are gone. There is a "high" that comes from that. Those changes were a powerful "catalyst" for the experiences I had. Of course, I attributed those experiences to the grace of Maharaji because he told us that's where all good things come from. But what I discovered was that it didn't come from or involve him at all. I only experienced a power or "love" from him because I chose to give my faith and trust to him. It was the faith and trust that felt good, not him.
Also, I rarely, if ever, found what M said inspiring, in fact, I think I was like most premies and didn't even remember what he said most of the thousands of times I heard him speak. It was the whole situation, all the premies, the lord, the opportunity to be a part of bringing peace to the world, and my faith in him and his knowledge that kept it going for as long as it did.
And, as several of us have mentioned, that "immersion" and the faith and trust that caused me to get "immersed" for those years, can be costly to other things that are very important. This seems to be the problem.
One other thing: The "early seventies" spiritual superiority many of us felt was, you will have to admit, fostered by Maharaji himself, and that feeling of superiority and "specialness" was one of factors that kept people involved. I recall numerous satsangs when M would talk about the confused and arrogant "people of the world" and how lucky we were to have been given the most supreme gift ever. Even the last time I saw him speak in 1990, which was supposed to be an introductory program, he spoke disparagingly about "human beings" who don't understand what the premies do, that the peace is within them. That kind of speaking enforces that "I'm-enlightened-and-you're-not" mentality that, in my opinion, still exists today and didn't end in the 70s.
JW
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Date: Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 20:05:25 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Rob
Subject: Re: To Rob (copy of lower message) (Re: Blind Bob...)
Message:
Hi Rob - I am somewhat upset that you are apparently leaving the site without answering my post to you below (under the 'sucker' thread - should have changed the title). I did write it for you since everybody else has seemingly heard about my experiences ad infinitum and are probably not interested any more. Also JW wrote a post answering some questions that you had. Neither post was 'attacking' (or at least I hope you wouldn't interpret them as such) - in fact, I think they were 'conversational' as you asked for. Or at least as conversational as you can get in a forum.
Regards,
Katie
Hi Katie,
Sorry about not answering. I don't have tons of time to do this. Can you give me a quickie overview of what yous aid before? I'll be around for an hour then back tomorrow maybe.
Rob
Dear Rob,
Here's a copy of my original message, which I wasn't really able to make a quickie overview of. Or whatever. Take all the time you want & you don't even have to answer it if you don't want to. It's just my perspective on things.
(MY MESSAGE, which is also posted below):
Dear Rob,
In your original post (not the one to GMJ, but the one to the ex-premies) you wrote:
'I think you are bitter because you made some interpretations on the opportunity he provides that turned out to be wrong. So now you want to blame him. You probably lie to yourself about other things too? Since you've 'left' him, have you now gone and become the best person you can, or are there other bogey-men from your past and present who youe now to blame for your lack of success?
See, I'm assuming you are not as successful as you want to
be. I'm assuming that, because if you knew about success, you would know that it comes from accepting personal responsibility for your life.' (end of quote)
I am one of the people that got angry when I read this. I got angry because 1)you are not the first premie to come here and say that the ex-premies are blaming Maharaji for their problems, and 2)because you assume (and generalize) that all the ex-premies are 'not as successful as they want to be', and imply that we 'lie to ourselves' and don't accept responsibility for our lives.
Here's part of my story. You can read more of it, and more of the ex-premies'stories in the 'Journeys' section (under 'In Contact' on the ex-premie site. I got knowledge in 1972 when I was 16. I was into some self-destructive behaviour, and didn't really have a home, when I started going to satsang at the ashram. I desperately needed a safe place to be, which I found in Divine Light Mission. I really appreciated the premies' kindness and the fact that they
did not appear to judge me.
I got knowledge about a month after I first heard about Guru Maharaji. I really thought it was going to change my life, but it did not. Somehow, although I tried diligently to practice it, I was never able to experience much from meditating on the knowledge. I did, however, like going to satsang and programs, and I liked hanging out with the premies, so I stuck around. In fact I stayed around for five years. Eventually I started to feel trapped - I always
felt guilty for not meditating enough, not giving and going to enough satsang, and not doing enough service. I was afraid to leave, however, because I thought that Maharaji was the incarnation of god, and, because of certain
things he had said, I thought that I was going to go to hell (or my brain would rot) if I left knowledge.
You said in your post to JW (re Maharaji) 'I never felt he was trying to say he was WHAT *I* THOUGHT GOD WAS. I thought he just meant that the source of love (god)was something he couldshow me in me.'
I did think Maharaji was god, and so did a lot of other people. If we were supposed to be worshipping god THROUGH him, the distinction escaped me. I think it would escape MOST 16-year-olds (and they gave knowledge to people starting at age 13 back then). In fact, I think this distinction would escape the great majority of 18-year-olds (which is how old you have to be to get knowledge now). Everyone called Maharaji 'Lord of the Universe' and
'Satguru', we all had altars to him in our houses and cars, we were constantly pranaming to his picture, we kissed his feet, he was compared to Jesus, and so forth. I am really surprised when premies such as yourself say that they
didn't think he was supposed to be god, because that was certainly the impression that most of the rest of us had.
I was disappointed by the knowledge meditation. And, I did 'give it a fair chance' like Maharaji says, or at least I think I did. I don't blame Maharaji for this, though, and it's not my motivation for putting my energy into this site. I just feel the need to present an alternate viewpoint to premies who may be unhappy with Maharaji and/or knowledge, but are afraid to leave. I also think that aspirants should be able to hear from people who didn't have totally positive
experiences with knowledge. (I also like a lot of the people who post on this site and enjoy interacting with them.) I am not interested in converting any premies (like yourself) who are having a satisfying experience following Maharaji.
I don't blame Maharaji for anything that has happened in my life, but I never gave up very much for him like some of the other people on this site did. Also, I was in a much worse place when I encountered DLM then many other people were. I am, in fact, grateful to the premies I met when I first heard about knowledge - they helped me a lot. Maybe this credit is due to Maharaji, but I prefer to give it to the premies. I don't feel like my life is either any better OR
any worse for having encountered Maharaji. As far as accepting responsibility for my own life, I HAVE learned that over the past 20 years, but not from Maharaji. (In fact, one of my biggest problems with Maharaji is that he appears not to take responsibility for his OWN life.)
I hope this answers some of your questions - if not, let me know.
Regards from Katie
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Date: Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 23:39:59 (EST)
Poster: A
Email: aerily@aol.com
To: David
Subject: Re: Blind ridiculing the fat (Re: Blind Bob...)
Message:
Your consistent choice of words intended to derogate Maharaji indicates a distinct prejudice; one might infer that you consider fat people to be inferior to those who are non-fat. Or low-fat, 2%.
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Date: Wed, Dec 17, 1997 at 03:39:35 (EST)
Poster: D@vid
Email: d@vid
To: A
Subject: Re: Blind ridiculing the fat (Re: Blind Bob...)
Message:
At last, a hint of humour. I was beginning to despair!
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Date: Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 03:45:05 (EST)
Poster: Annie
Email: aerily@aol.com
To: Anyone
Subject: No Hidden Agenda
Message:
Going Downhill in the Garden of Eden
No one has skiied this particular mountain before you.
No one before you has even worn a path
through the snow, or trampled the grasses in summer,
or raked away the leaves in the autumn; no one
has left footprints you can follow,
there are no tracks from accomplished explorers
to guide your descent;
no wonder it's daunting
it's uncharted territory,
custom made wilderness.
Many have skiied their own hills, most of them
unwillingly, and too quickly; the gravity is irresistible;
and who does not feel its pull as they stand
at the top, looking downward?
Wait, wait: I've changed my mind;
I don't want to go down this hill after all,
don't want to, I'll stay here,
or get off the hill altogether,
that's it, I'll get off;
and it isn't an option,
it never was; nobody told me about this;
or if they tried, I didn't hear them;
I thought they were talking about someone else,
I've never done this before! Where's the manual,
where's the dependable book of instructions,
Ski Like A Pro, or The Five Easy Steps For Pathfinders?
nobody told me I had to go down this hill,
like nobody told me that childhood is fleeting,
marriages fall apart,
being a parent confounds you, and breaks your heart;
nobody told me that living is dying and everything passes;
oh where are the tracks in the snow, and the paths
left by those who have already trampled the grasses?
they whisper to you: are you imagining?
there is a map, a fragile, ancient piece of work:
do not dare to unroll it; it will crumble to dust, and blow away;
it will not reveal your final destination;
the legend is not scripted in English, or any language
you know how to translate; it is written on gut, and breath;
you cannot distinguish directions for more than
the distance of one moment's journey to the next;
but one moment at a time
your fabulous downhill journey is charted:
you always have known these slopes:
familiar the pathfinder's art, and the skiier's,
familiar the warmth at the foot of your mountain,
familiar the campfire never extinguished.
...............................................................................
.....
15 December 1997
Annie Sosman
"wait a bit; I am not yet finished with this moment"
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Date: Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 07:21:13 (EST)
Poster: Brian
Email: brian@worldnetoh.com
To: Annie
Subject: Re: No Hidden Agenda
Message:
Thanks for the morning smile, Annie.
I can only hope that the winds cover my own tracks before someone else follows them downhill. Otherwise, they're gonna hit a lot of trees...
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Date: Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 00:03:36 (EST)
Poster: Mike
Email: bigguy32@juno.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Imagine This
Message:
Imagine that we have no need for names for our groups and that information on how to evolve and improve ourselves, make ourselves happy is available everywhere, for everyone without kissing one toe or attending one program or sending in one dollar.
We'd have to make no arragements anywhere and we'd not have to protect anyone from anything because the little and hugh secrets wouldn't be secrets anymore.
No one would be left behind and no one would be forgotten or abused. Fear would go out of business completely... but, that's just my mind rattling :)
And, everyone, would be treated as avatars equally, gods/goddess equally, savior/savioress equally, humans... equally ;)
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Date: Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 00:12:03 (EST)
Poster: CD
Email:
To: Mike
Subject: Re: Imagine This
Message:
You are in your mind, but it sounds pretty good !
Too bad its only a nice thought.
Yet it will probably drive you to do good deeds and possibly create a nice song.
Happy holidays,
CD
'I want to fly but I can't even swim' - Ray Davies
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Date: Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 05:45:59 (EST)
Poster: Sir David
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: Anyone who'll listen
Subject: Re: Imagine This
Message:
Mike hit the nail right on the head there. You know, when is Maharaji and the premies going to realise that the world is full of people and they are all just as evolved, good, kind, loving, sincere (and indeed more so) than Maharaji and his premies.
I have not known any premies for over ten years now and only relate to normal people. You guys have got to understand that you're never going to get people to get into this Maharaji and knowledge trip. It's a cult but you can't see that because you're seeing it from a cultists perspective. The Spice Girls are NOT going to be interested in joining a cult of elitist Maharaji meditators, nor is Vicky who works at the supermarket checkout.
HRH Queen Elizabeth will not be rushing to join the globe trotting Maharaji followers and neither will Muhamed who works at the kebab shop in The Kings Road. Tracy the telephone sales girl will find little interest in cancelling her holiday to Tenerife to go and listen to a guru in Australia and John who works in accounts always goes to Scarborough for his holidays.
When are you guys going to realise that Maharaji and the whole scene is just not palatable or even POSSIBLE for the vast majority of the masses who make up our planet?
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Date: Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 06:25:27 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email:
To: Sir David
Subject: Re: Imagine This
Message:
Mike hit the nail right on the head there. You know, when is Maharaji and the premies going to realise that the world is full of people and they are all just as evolved, good, kind, loving, sincere (and indeed more so) than Maharaji and his premies.
I have not known any premies for over ten years now and only relate to normal people. You guys have got to understand that you're never going to get people to get into this Maharaji and knowledge trip. It's a cult but you can't see that because you're seeing it from a cultists perspective. The Spice Girls are NOT going to be interested in joining a cult of elitist Maharaji meditators, nor is Vicky who works at the supermarket checkout.
HRH Queen Elizabeth will not be rushing to join the globe trotting Maharaji followers and neither will Muhamed who works at the kebab shop in The Kings Road. Tracy the telephone sales girl will find little interest in cancelling her holiday to Tenerife to go and listen to a guru in Australia and John who works in accounts always goes to Scarborough for his holidays.
When are you guys going to realise that Maharaji and the whole scene is just not palatable or even POSSIBLE for the vast majority of the masses who make up our planet?
It's kind of hard to reconcile this 'mob rules' argument with your ecumenical 'each to his own' post a little down below, Dave. But, anyway, as much as I understand it, the Knowledge is not for everyone. Not everyone has a temperament or interest for meditation. The point is - to make it available to those who want it, and not stigmatize and belittle them as cult members, if they want to pursue it. We is ordinary folks, too.
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Date: Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 09:01:33 (EST)
Poster: Sir David
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: Mili
Subject: Re: Imagine This
Message:
It's kind of hard to reconcile this 'mob rules' argument with your ecumenical 'each to his own' post a little down below, Dave. But, anyway, as much as I understand it, the Knowledge is not for everyone. Not everyone has a temperament or interest for meditation. The point is - to make it available to those who want it, and not stigmatize and belittle them as cult members, if they want to pursue it. We is ordinary folks, too.Nothing wrong with that Mili, provided that Maharaji or his premies don't claim to be sole purveyors of the truth. Provided premies and Maharaji stop critisising or ridiculing the ex-premies and stop thinking that they are somehow superior or more knowledgable to the ex-premies.
I wouldn't actually put you in that catagory Mili but there are others who fit the bill.
Mind you, you did once sat we'd all blown it, didn't you.
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Date: Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 11:15:57 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email:
To: Sir David
Subject: Re: Imagine This
Message:
It's kind of hard to reconcile this 'mob rules' argument with your ecumenical 'each to his own' post a little down below, Dave. But, anyway, as much as I understand it, the Knowledge is not for everyone. Not everyone has a temperament or interest for meditation. The point is - to make it available to those who want it, and not stigmatize and belittle them as cult members, if they want to pursue it. We is ordinary folks, too.Nothing wrong with that Mili, provided that Maharaji or his premies don't claim to be sole purveyors of the truth. Provided premies and Maharaji stop critisising or ridiculing the ex-premies and stop thinking that they are somehow superior or more knowledgable to the ex-premies.
I wouldn't actually put you in that catagory Mili but there are others who fit the bill.
Mind you, you did once sat we'd all blown it, didn't you.
Yeah - I did say that. Sorry, it was one of my irrational moments.
you know, if you simply called me a follower of a Guru of the Radhaswami tradition, or even a Sikh or Hindu, or Buddhist, we could get along just fine, and I wouldn't pass uncouth remarks on you guys. But when you label me a cult member, it really makes me mad. I mean, here are all you people and no one has ever gone dragging you by the sleeve to go to satsang or to the programmes. You are all living normal lives, and doing pretty well it seems. Me, too! Maybe in the ashram, things were a little more heavy, but then, the ashrams didn't last all that long. From what I read about the boy - girl ashram showers it wasn't all that strict, either.
The Earth is becoming a smaller place every passing day, and we have to learn to live together in tolerance. Knowledge is a traditional and normal thing in India. Maybe to us in the West it is still a little bit strange. I can understand that your reactions are similar to people's reactions when a mosque is erected in the middle of Hampstead. But, there is nothing you can do about it - as I said, the world is getting smaller and smaller every day, and these things will not go away. Why don't you look at it as India opening its heart for you and offering it's very best to you, to accept you as its very own. You can accept that hospitality, and after a while, if it doesn't suit you, well no one is really forcing you into anything. No need to spit on the whole thing. Actually, the Knowledge really is universal, it's not just an Indian thing. It's just one of the things that are available in this world.
P.S. You know, when I think of it - Maharaji having an audience with the Queen. I think they would hit it off just fine! :=)
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Date: Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 13:46:07 (EST)
Poster: Sir David
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: Mili
Subject: Re: Imagine This
Message:
Count Mili of Croatia said:
"From what I read about the boy - girl ashram
showers it wasn't all that strict, either."
Damn it! I must have missed that bit. Maybe I was under my blanket meditating.
Yes we all breathe. The same God that loves you also loves me and everyone else. Let not Maharaji divide the people though. Mike's original post was perhaps suggesting that the experience we have sometimes had from meditation should be available to ALL if they want it. No secret techniques, no travelling to far off lands, just all of us reckognising ourselves. By the way, I'll ask the Queen next time I'm at the Palace.
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Date: Mon, Dec 15, 1997 at 17:00:39 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Magic Bus
Message:
Can you imagine this: a busful of ex-premies arrives at a festival, headed by the ex-initiator and ex-community coordinator. They have come to 'confirm' their doubts...
Special seating arrangements would have to be made, and of course, the security arrangements would have to be made very tight. Or perhaps, no one would ever give them a second glance.
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Date: Mon, Dec 15, 1997 at 21:29:58 (EST)
Poster: Sir David
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: Mili
Subject: Re: Magic Bus
Message:
Mili, you're a fascinating guy and all that but (yawn) what was the point in this post?
Shouldn't you be off to your bed or meditating or something.
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Date: Mon, Dec 15, 1997 at 21:44:50 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email:
To: Mili
Subject: Re: Magic Bus
Message:
Can you imagine this: a busful of ex-premies arrives at a festival, headed by the ex-initiator and ex-community coordinator. They have come to 'confirm' their doubts...
Special seating arrangements would have to be made, and of course, the security arrangements would have to be made very tight. Or perhaps, no one would ever give them a second glance.
No offense, Mili, but I never EVER want to go to a festival or program again.
Perhaps instead we ex-premies can book a package tour to come to visit YOU! How about it?
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Date: Mon, Dec 15, 1997 at 22:46:15 (EST)
Poster: Sir David
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: The salt of the earth
Subject: Re: Magic Bus
Message:
Yeah, we love ya Mili! There's aint no doubt about it.
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Date: Mon, Dec 15, 1997 at 22:47:49 (EST)
Poster: Sir David
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: The salt of the earth
Subject: Re: Magic Bus
Message:
Yeah, we love ya Mili! There ain't no doubt about it!
(God, what awful American English)
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Date: Mon, Dec 15, 1997 at 23:43:17 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email:
To: Sir David
Subject: Re: Magic Bus
Message:
Mili, you're a fascinating guy and all that but (yawn) what was the point in this post?
Shouldn't you be off to your bed or meditating or something.
So, I write one post in which I don't condemn you or tell you to go to hell, and it is BORING???
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Date: Mon, Dec 15, 1997 at 23:48:05 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Katie
Subject: Re: Magic Bus
Message:
Can you imagine this: a busful of ex-premies arrives at a festival, headed by the ex-initiator and ex-community coordinator. They have come to 'confirm' their doubts...
Special seating arrangements would have to be made, and of course, the security arrangements would have to be made very tight. Or perhaps, no one would ever give them a second glance.
No offense, Mili, but I never EVER want to go to a festival or program again.
Perhaps instead we ex-premies can book a package tour to come to visit YOU! How about it?
Well, that's like - a second best idea! But if you want to go through it, it would be great.
There are a zillion beautiful uninhabited islands in the Adriatic, and you guys can pick one for yourself. Don't expect me to come back for you with the boat, though! ;=)
- Mili
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Date: Mon, Dec 15, 1997 at 14:59:40 (EST)
Poster: David
Email: d@vid
To: Everyone
Subject: Parlais Francais?
Message:
Anyone care to translate this post which was sent to the site from Bennedetto Patrice...
Le vrai maitre ne donne de lecon qu'a lui meme
Le maitre n'est le maitre que quand il n'est plus le maitre
Le cailloux est plus riche que le maitre
etc etc ...
--------------------------------
It was followed by this one....
Je trouve ce site tres amusant
Le seigneur de l'univers! Ah Ah Ah c'est tres drole
J'ai rencontrer M.. a mon gre je ne lui ai jamais donner un sou
et c'est tres bien
Je trouve M Rawat tres intelligent il gagne des sous et s'amuse comme un
petit fou a faire le guru, c'est tres bien pour lui tant pis si il y a
des jaloux ou des imbeciles a qui cela donne des boutons
Personnellement je m'en fout completement de maharaji des premies et du
reste
je vis ma vie comme je l'entend
Rawat dit ou fait ce qu'il veux et je respecte ce qu'il fait ou dit
comme je respecte ce que dit ou fait quiconque sur cette planete
et si il y a des abrutis que maharaji derange tant pis pour eux
A ma connaissance je ne l'ai jamais entendu dire des choses mauvaises en
aucune maniere, drogues, racisme ou je ne sais quoi ...
Toujours je l'ai vu inviter les gens a vivre personnellement leur
bonheur et ouvrir leur coeur a faire des efforts pour grandir ,
apprecier la vie
Il n'y a pas de mal a ca ...
Alors peut etre que M Rawat ne peut etre votre maitre et c'est normal
parce que le grand mamamouchi vous fourre a vous faire peter l'ognion et
vous aimez ca ... Et c'est normal ...
Mais je vous le dit on peut respecter les gens sans leur lecher le cul
Et ce que vous tous vous n'avez pas avaler c'est que vous lui avez
lecher le cul
M Zoi Hum
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Date: Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 03:07:49 (EST)
Poster: la vieille premie
Email:
To: David
Subject: Re: Parlais Francais?
Message:
I weel geev eet a try, but zere ahre a few words I cannot figoor zem out.
Eef I try to traduce ze post on line, I weel go broke from ze phone beel, so I will get back to yoo le'tair.
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Date: Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 05:42:35 (EST)
Poster: Mr Ex's translation
Email:
To: David
Subject: Re: Parlais Francais?
Message:
As there is ‘some truth’ in this,
I’ll try to translate it : be kind with my English, please !
>Anyone care to translate this post which was sent to the site from Bennedetto Patrice...
>Le vrai maitre ne donne de lecon qu'a lui meme
>Le maitre n'est le maitre que quand il n'est plus le maitre
>Le cailloux est plus riche que le maitre
>etc etc ...
The true master only gives lessons to himself
The master is rich only when is is no master anymore
The stone is richer than the master
etc
--------------------------------
It was followed by this one....
>Je trouve ce site tres amusant
>Le seigneur de l'univers! Ah Ah Ah c'est tres drole
I find this web-site funny.
The lord of the universe, ah ah ah, how funny
>J'ai rencontrer M.. a mon gre je ne lui ai jamais donner un sou
>et c'est tres bien
I met M when I wanted without ever giving him a dime
and that’s fine
>Je trouve M Rawat tres intelligent il gagne des sous et s'amuse comme un
>petit fou a faire le guru, c'est tres bien pour lui tant pis si il y a
>des jaloux ou des imbeciles a qui cela donne des boutons
I think M Rawat is very intelligent playing guru, he makes money and has fun
that’s very good. Too bad if there are jealous and stupid people
that are pissed
>Personnellement je m'en fout completement de maharaji des premies et du
>reste je vis ma vie comme je l'entend
I don’t care at all for maharaji, premies and the rest
I live my life the way I like
>Rawat dit ou fait ce qu'il veux et je respecte ce qu'il fait ou dit
>comme je respecte ce que dit ou fait quiconque sur cette planete
Rawat says and does whatever he likes, and I respect this fact
like I respect whatever anyone says or does on this planet
>et si il y a des abrutis que maharaji derange tant pis pour eux
and if there are some stupid people that maharaji disturbs
that’s too bad for them
>A ma connaissance je ne l'ai jamais entendu dire des choses mauvaises en
>aucune maniere, drogues, racisme ou je ne sais quoi ...
I never heard him saying any bad things in any way
about drugs, racism, or anything ...
>Toujours je l'ai vu inviter les gens a vivre personnellement leur
>bonheur et ouvrir leur coeur a faire des efforts pour grandir ,
>apprecier la vie
>Il n'y a pas de mal a ca ...
I always heard him inviting people living their own happiness,
opening their heart, and making efforts to grow
and appreciate life.
There is nothing wrong with this
>Alors peut etre que M Rawat ne peut etre votre maitre et c'est normal
>parce que le grand mamamouchi vous fourre a vous faire peter l'ognion et
>vous aimez ca ... Et c'est normal ...
Maybe M Rawat can’t be your master, this is normal
because the great charlatan fucks you so much that your ass almost blows up
and you like it .... And this is normal ...
>Mais je vous le dit on peut respecter les gens sans leur lecher le cul
>Et ce que vous tous vous n'avez pas avaler c'est que vous lui avez
>lecher le cul
I tell you this : you can have respect for people without licking their ass
And what you can’t forget is that you have
licked his ass
>M Zoi Hum
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Date: Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 12:37:51 (EST)
Poster: John K.
Email: kreilkamp@mindspring.com
To: Mr Ex's translation
Subject: Re: Parlais Francais?
Message:
Yeah, the truth hurts, but it's also very funny, I am laughing so hard it's killing me.
let's fact it, it's tough saying, there is no santa claus and gee I was such a sucker I actually put out cookies and milk by the fireplace.
but better to say it later than never, and it does feel great and it is funny really when you think about it.
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Date: Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 12:46:28 (EST)
Poster: Jim Wannabee
Email: joger02@aol.co.
To: Mr Ex's translation
Subject: Re: Parlais Francais?
Message:
I think this post came from one of those throngs of "Jim Wannabees" OP has been blathering about.
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Date: Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 14:28:07 (EST)
Poster: Annie
Email: aerily@aol.com
To: Joe
Subject: Alors parlons en justesse (Re: Parlais Francais?)
Message:
.... OP has been blathering about.
Joe, this is an excellent example of
the kind of word choice which you decry
when written by a non-ex-premie.
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Date: Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 14:55:51 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email: Joger02@aol.com
To: Annie
Subject: Re: Alors parlons en justesse (Re: Parlais Francais?)
Message:
.... OP has been blathering about.
Joe, this is an excellent example of
the kind of word choice which you decry
when written by a non-ex-premie.
When did I every DECRY an ex-premie's use of words? I do consider OP's statements about "Jim Wannabees" blather. It was a broad-brush attempt to imply that ex-premies are just imitating Jim and not expressing their own opinions. When OP wouldn't back it up, I described it as blather. Yes, it is just my opinion. What do you think it was?
BTW I think YOUR post is "another example" of a broad-brush statment in line with your previous statement that I "alsays" misquote you, and that I "decry" word choice, again with nothing to back it up with anything but a generaliziation.
JW
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Date: Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 15:33:43 (EST)
Poster: op
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: Alors parlons en justesse (Re: Parlais Francais?)
Message:
Lighten up, JW! Your sweet side seems to be fading ...
It was a broad-brush attempt to imply that ex-premies are just imitating Jim and not expressing their own opinions.
No broad strokes intended, JW. My opinionated statement covered some, not others.
I think I've explained a little of what I meant. It bothers me that people throw shit at one person for leading them, but they can't get over the temptation to march along behind the very next creature that comes along playing a pipe. I think it's called peer pressure - only a leader is never exactly a peer.
And I think you can tell as well as anybody, if you read over the posts, which people try for mean-spirited gashes at their invisible enemies, just to sound tough.
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Date: Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 17:12:18 (EST)
Poster: A
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: Alors parlons en justesse (Re: Parlais Francais?)
Message:
.... OP has been blathering about.
Joe, this is an excellent example of
the kind of word choice which you decry
when written by a non-ex-premie.
When did I every DECRY an ex-premie's use of words? I do consider OP's statements about 'Jim Wannabees' blather. It was a broad-brush attempt to imply that ex-premies are just imitating Jim and not expressing their own opinions. When OP wouldn't back it up, I described it as blather. Yes, it is just my opinion. What do you think it was?
BTW I think YOUR post is 'another example' of a broad-brush statment in line with your previous statement that I 'alsays' misquote you, and that I 'decry' word choice, again with nothing to back it up with anything but a generaliziation.
JW
AND you don't read carefully, AND your spelling is AWFUL
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Date: Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 17:26:49 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email: joger02@aol.com
To: A
Subject: Re: Alors parlons en justesse (Re: Parlais Francais?)
Message:
AND you don't read carefully, AND your spelling is AWFUL
Oh no, Annie, you're really Sister Mary Immaculata who taught me in the fourth grade, aren't you! My worst nightmare has come true!
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Date: Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 17:35:17 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email: joger02@aol.com
To: op
Subject: Re: Alors parlons en justesse (Re: Parlais Francais?)
Message:
Lighten up, JW! Your sweet side seems to be fading ...
It was a broad-brush attempt to imply that ex-premies are just imitating Jim and not expressing their own opinions.
No broad strokes intended, JW. My opinionated statement covered some, not others.
I think I've explained a little of what I meant. It bothers me that people throw shit at one person for leading them, but they can't get over the temptation to march along behind the very next creature that comes along playing a pipe. I think it's called peer pressure - only a leader is never exactly a peer.
And I think you can tell as well as anybody, if you read over the posts, which people try for mean-spirited gashes at their invisible enemies, just to sound tough.
OP, maybe the "broad brush" labeling wasn't intended, but that is the result. Once you've stepped in it, and especially after you offered to explain what you meant and whom you were referring to, backing away like you do is't really fair, but I guess it's time to move on. ALso what is "mean-spitited" is a very subjective thing. I think you'll find that, at least on the internet, it's all part of the territory. But moreover, I think when something as personal as a feeling that you have been ripped off on a spiritual level by Maharaji, versus a feeling that you LOVE Maharaji more than anything or anyone in the entire world, people can take personally things that were not intended to be personal on that subject, on both sides.
But I'm STILL waiting for your responses regarding darshan and the program in Australia. If you don't intend to comment, at least have the courtesy to tell me you're not going to.
JW
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Date: Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 18:12:37 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email:
To: JW and Annie
Subject: Re: Alors parlons en justesse (Re: Parlais Francais?)
Message:
AND you don't read carefully, AND your spelling is AWFUL
Oh no, Annie, you're really Sister Mary Immaculata who taught me in the fourth grade, aren't you! My worst nightmare has come true!
IMHO, it is not Joe's spelling, which is pretty good (usually, although you need to work on the word "deity", Joe!), it's the size (very small) of the box in which to type messages for the forum. On the newsgroup it was easier to proofread things. I have made some grevious and embarrassing spelling and grammar errors while posting on this forum. In fact there's probably one in this post, even though I'm trying to proofread it as I go along.
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Date: Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 19:10:25 (EST)
Poster: op
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: Alors parlons en justesse (Re: Parlais Francais?)
Message:
About the darshan question - see below under Answer the Question Bob. And I sent you an email, if that's your correct address up there.
I know that aol is a pretty lousy server, but since I'm on it too, you should get it relatively quickly.
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Date: Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 23:50:03 (EST)
Poster: ME ME ME ME ME
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: Alors parlons en justesse (Re: Parlais Francais?)
Message:
AND you don't read carefully, AND your spelling is AWFUL
Oh no, Annie, you're really Sister Mary Immaculata who taught me in the fourth grade, aren't you! My worst nightmare has come true!
Praissseeee the LAWWWWD thank you jeezus!!! YOU have blessed this boy wif a sense of HUMOR!!!!! HALLLELUJAH YOU Have OPENED MY EYES AMEN AMEN AMEN AMEN!!! OM MANI PADI BOTI WALLABASH AND KALAMAZOOOOOOOOOO
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Date: Mon, Dec 15, 1997 at 12:41:46 (EST)
Poster: GMJ
Email:
To: Everyone
Subject: Stop this fooling around
Message:
Premies what are you doing? Stop this fooling around and practice my knowledge!
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Date: Mon, Dec 15, 1997 at 14:29:26 (EST)
Poster: Sir David
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: GMJ
Subject: Re: Stop this fooling around
Message:
What's this? Maharaji disobeying his own agya by posting on the internet?!
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Date: Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 05:41:39 (EST)
Poster: Mr Ex's translattion
Email:
To: GMJ
Subject: Re: Stop this fooling around
Message:
As there is ‘some truth’ in this,
I’ll try to translate it : be kind with my English, please !
>Anyone care to translate this post which was sent to the site from Bennedetto Patrice...
>Le vrai maitre ne donne de lecon qu'a lui meme
>Le maitre n'est le maitre que quand il n'est plus le maitre
>Le cailloux est plus riche que le maitre
>etc etc ...
The true master only gives lessons to himself
The master is rich only when is is no master anymore
The stone is richer than the master
etc
--------------------------------
It was followed by this one....
>Je trouve ce site tres amusant
>Le seigneur de l'univers! Ah Ah Ah c'est tres drole
I find this web-site funny.
The lord of the universe, ah ah ah, how funny
>J'ai rencontrer M.. a mon gre je ne lui ai jamais donner un sou
>et c'est tres bien
I met M when I wanted without ever giving him a dime
and that’s fine
>Je trouve M Rawat tres intelligent il gagne des sous et s'amuse comme un
>petit fou a faire le guru, c'est tres bien pour lui tant pis si il y a
>des jaloux ou des imbeciles a qui cela donne des boutons
I think M Rawat is very intelligent playing guru, he makes money and has fun
that’s very good. Too bad if there are jealous and stupid people
that are pissed
>Personnellement je m'en fout completement de maharaji des premies et du
>reste je vis ma vie comme je l'entend
I don’t care at all for maharaji, premies and the rest
I live my life the way I like
>Rawat dit ou fait ce qu'il veux et je respecte ce qu'il fait ou dit
>comme je respecte ce que dit ou fait quiconque sur cette planete
Rawat says and does whatever he likes, and I respect this fact
like I respect whatever anyone says or does on this planet
>et si il y a des abrutis que maharaji derange tant pis pour eux
and if there are some stupid people that maharaji disturbs
that’s too bad for them
>A ma connaissance je ne l'ai jamais entendu dire des choses mauvaises en
>aucune maniere, drogues, racisme ou je ne sais quoi ...
I never heard him saying any bad things in any way
about drugs, racism, or anything ...
>Toujours je l'ai vu inviter les gens a vivre personnellement leur
>bonheur et ouvrir leur coeur a faire des efforts pour grandir ,
>apprecier la vie
>Il n'y a pas de mal a ca ...
I always heard him inviting people living their own happiness,
opening their heart, and making efforts to grow
and appreciate life.
There is nothing wrong with this
>Alors peut etre que M Rawat ne peut etre votre maitre et c'est normal
>parce que le grand mamamouchi vous fourre a vous faire peter l'ognion et
>vous aimez ca ... Et c'est normal ...
Maybe M Rawat can’t be your master, this is normal
because the great charlatan fucks you so much that your ass almost blows up
and you like it .... And this is normal ...
>Mais je vous le dit on peut respecter les gens sans leur lecher le cul
>Et ce que vous tous vous n'avez pas avaler c'est que vous lui avez
>lecher le cul
I tell you this : you can have respect for people without licking their ass
And what you can’t forget is that you have
licked his ass
>M Zoi Hum
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Date: Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 05:44:04 (EST)
Poster: No need to read above
Email:
To: Mr Ex's translattion
Subject: Re: Stop this fooling around
Message:
post, sent to the wrong place ...
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Date: Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 16:42:11 (EST)
Poster: David
Email: d@vid
To: GMJ
Subject: Re: Stop this fooling around
Message:
The Lord of the Universe came down from on high and spake thus: Premies what are you doing? Stop this fooling around and practice my knowledge!
Which made me chuckle because in the dim and distant past I posted a few notes around here under the guise of 'M' (before Judge Jim blew my cover). It had Mili fooled so much that he truly believed I was the fat one. I just wish I'd kept his flattering responses.
Ho, ho, ho... come on Rudolph, just a few more Croatian chimnies to squeeze down.
David
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Date: Mon, Dec 15, 1997 at 00:38:23 (EST)
Poster: small
Email: bb
To: Everyone
Subject: vacation
Message:
please read the post 90mph 180 degrees.
It's down there a ways in the perspective thread
I think.
short vacation time
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Date: Mon, Dec 15, 1997 at 06:21:12 (EST)
Poster: Sir David
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: Bill
Subject: Re: vacation
Message:
Just read that excellent post Bill. You've summed it up very nicely. Good work!
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Date: Mon, Dec 15, 1997 at 12:49:10 (EST)
Poster: John K.
Email:
To: small
Subject: Re: vacation
Message:
You say somewhere in there:
"The core of what mohammed said
the core of what jesus said
was live a true and honest life and love god and
the rest of the folks.
They gave explicit directions about what not to do
in this life. And spiritual pride and falsehood are at
the tip top of the list."
So, how do you deal with the fact that jesus did say "I and the father are one" - that's not spiritual pride? which supposedly is why he got eliminated by the religious folks of the day because he seemed to be saying he was one with God.
Also, I don't know how recently you have read what Jesus says, but I don't think it's all that clear and explicit, cryptic is how I would describe it.
If I had my bible and the time, I would give you some quotes and see what your clear and explicit understanding is of it. My point?
The hell with all of these ridiculous so called masters who started these ridiculous religions which are just total bullshit! Why condemn one (M); condemn them all!
Like Woody Allen said, us human beings need to file a class action against God for all of this confusion.
I don't blame the people who pose as masters, I blame God for not making everything clearer from the start.
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Date: Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 01:12:00 (EST)
Poster: Sorry about that
Email: bill burke
To: John K.
Subject: OP (Re: vacation)
Message:
Hi John, I thought I could go away but I have to wait
till I'm done I guess.
Well, jesus said it towards the end of his life and by that point he was useing the power as if it was truly his to
control. The account of mark, which I saw an english
shakespearean actor do in it's entirety, is a pretty
convinceing piece of reporting.
That possibility of actually becomeing one for a while
is probably maharaji's only hope at this point.
He is putting himself out there as someone that
the power has bestowed something special on, as he has for years, and people like, well, ME, just accepted based on
the theater and the way the breath was labeled.
If the stories of jesus doing power usage are true,
and being able to use the power to that degree -walking
on water, healing the deaf, diseased, blind, dead,
controlling fishes, water to wine is possible, then
that might be an indicator of when you one. One with
the breath and granted access to the control panel.
My response to OP was probably overboard but I attribute
that to the reason that when I talked with OP in some past
posts and emails, she triggers my old gopi training and
it's a freaked out part of me. I'm trying to either
wait till it dies or find a new way to utilize some
part of it.
Of course your right about the christian scriptures
and even some of jesus/yeshuas' statements.
eat my body?
he came to die for our sins?
ect. ect.
I got a huge dose of christianity recently and it quickly
becomes a quagmire. But some parts are so accurate about
the way humans are, and right and wrong, and that we are
designed with standards built into our nature.
Maharaji and OP state that when the messiah comes he
gets to throw away the rule book but not only is that
not true, but since the rule book is built into our nature,
our concience, the hopeful messiah ignores and distains
our nature and concience and that results in harm for all.
You make an excellent point about the masters and the blame
for not making everything clearer from the start.
How about this? The only thing that I can come up with
(sorry to repeat this) is that god is vulnerable to a
living human being. Look at the religions, they are all
a jumble, yet, at the core of the scriptures there is
this consistant reference to a word of power.
Yet, if you approach any religious person and ask what is
the word, you get
from christians--'it's the name jesus'
or, 'it's the book the bible.'
from jews, -- 'it's something you cannot speak.'
from sikhs -- 'it's sa ta na ma.'
from hari krishna's -- ' it's the name krishna.'
I know, I went on a krishna bus once for the day, finally
I asked the right question, why do you do that krishna
song? and they said 'we do it 750 times a day (!) and
that is because krishna said always remember my name.
Hindus chant all kinds of names, not knowing.
Same with tibetians, and also buddists repeat different
names, in fact, buddists consider it worse to kill a
crow than to kill a man! Why? because the crow repeats
one of the 115 names of god. AW, AW, AW, AW.
Hindus also chant RAMA endlessly, ramaramramaramaramar
amar. that is how the name Amar came about. True story.
It always gets put in a fog pronto.
Look at maharaji, he has made himself difficult to
approach, and the word is a 15 min technique.
He is just now able to articulate a benefit to
remembering it during your day. This after
30 years of him being the almighty lord and he himself
being pretty much completely away from it.
He has aggrieved me to the point I want to destroy him
and that is all part of the fog that automatically
want's to bury the knowing about it.
Why? because it is the power and it is vulnerable.
Better that we just have some incorrect religion
to look at god through and well, human, just be good and
have a good life and after you die you will go somewhere
better.
What can be better than having a body and this location?
And the power itself is right here, the reason maharaji
messed up his life so bad is probably partly because
the power is not planning a real successful revealing
of it's location.
So, we have the new Maharaji religion happening right
before us and in a couple centuries the legend will
grow that the almighty lord was here and somehow the
breath technique will be a chant or something.
Another nicely executed burial of the power. shhhh!
That is probably my final analysis on the god issue.
I may feel aggrieved at the fact that maharaji
is getting credit for being something more,MUCH more than
he is, but the track record is clear,
We ain't EVER going to get a permanent long lasting
chance at getting a grip on the powers' handle.
That just isn't in the powers' interest or
things would have been, and would now be, different.
Don Henley of the eagles, and Paul Simon in his song, and others foolishly think when kennedy
got killed history went wrong, But history regularly
misses what seems to us to be great chances.
Sorry, Maybe they could have been better or not,
but the track record of religions and the issue
of knowing the power or not is the primary concern of
the power, and our little wishes come second.
Anonomousie may reveal the moonies secrets, but
I think I am going to accept the above idea as the
way it is unless someone will offer another idea.
Maybe I'll post the pope one too, it's pretty good.
I already covered the mormons after all, right mili?
But I may accept defeat and declare maharaji perfect
for the humans based on the powers' priority
programming.
Flawed to perfection.
If you can, pluck the diamond from the mud,
cling to it,
and make your hearts' wishes to it,
and choose carefully.
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Date: Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 01:47:51 (EST)
Poster: sorry about that
Email: bb
To: op
Subject: op part 2 (Re: vacation)
Message:
You have a nice viewpoint in life, your happy
and you enjoy things. I don't want to mess up your
sight.
In fairness to me, I did reccomend to you that you
go do something else a number of times.
I give up.
The free will option has been chosen in this life here
and some of the consequences include this god issue mess.
I walk on not empty handed, but ok with the god related
lunacy. It's endless. It's uniform.
I am not going to fix it.
I will read some JW posts on my way out to screw my
head back on.
I will send scott and david some money in 98 to thank them
for hosting this forum. It certainly has been helpful.
My hopes or illusions have been defeated by reality.
I declared war on maharaji last night, you can read it in
the letters to maharaji section if you want.
But maharaji can hold a real long grudge in HIS life,
but apparently something is saving me from that,
Today his grip on me left.
But also all the propulsion left too.
I am willing to accept what is left, the life to feel.
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Date: Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 03:43:46 (EST)
Poster: op
Email:
To: sorry about that
Subject: Re: op part 2 (Re: vacation)
Message:
Dear Dear Bill:
No, I don't believe you for a minute. I believe that at the moment you wrote this you were free of 'his grip' - but that grip is only inside your own head.
Next week will be a new leaf, a new meandering of the stream. Where there is so much hatred (and I haven't read your letters to him yet), there is a reason that is not going to fade away in an instant flash.
I've written to you a few times that the reason I stick to M is NOT what he says in words. He didn't convince me of who/what he is because people told me or he told me. Whatever you interpret seems always to come from vocalizations. Anything that can be spoken is already suspect because it is manifest through the screen of the material web we're in (samsara, more concise- and precise-ly).
I'm not thinking about this post, nor am I choosing my words carefully - so JW, Brian, if I say something out of whack, I'm sure you'll call me on it.
Nevertheless - my life these past 27 years with M has been the epitome of reality. I really don't care if he came for you or Katie or Simpkiss or Heller. He is here for me, he mirrors my soul and dances with every atom of my being.
Do you need people to walk on water to show that they're connected to the eternal? Go to Tibet and dry some blankets with your body heat at 50 below zero? Put a spiggot on a rock and draw out water, then change it into wine and feed the blind babies so they grow up sighted?
If that's what you want, join the circus of Dr. Lao. There's plenty to go around. Sai Baba is still pulling ashes out of thin air, the pentacostals can still touch you and make you walk without your well-used crutches.
I have a treasure chest of stories about M. Most are things I saw with my own eyes. But they are MY reality, not yours. Telling you that he did this or that will not affect your reality.
You have chosen to place a mote in your eye. You see, but you don't. If he's not for you, then he's not. If he is, you've got a lot to let go of.
Personally, I'd like to see you let go. Just live your life fully and free. Samsara is a sticky business, and when we start judging the eternal from within its dimension, all we do is race around in circles. You don't have to ask for a manifestation of the divine - you already know it, so all you have to do is hook up to it INSIDE YOURSELF and let go of all the rest.
Take care. Forget about power - it's just a trap, anyway.
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Date: Sun, Dec 14, 1997 at 17:30:27 (EST)
Poster: David
Email: d@vid
To: Everyone
Subject: No shortage of suckers...
Message:
Here's a couple of offerings sent to the http://www.ex-premie.org web site from Rob Vanderkam (vanderka@gis.nrcan.gc.ca). The first was sent to a page we put on the site for ex-premies to send messages to BigM. It reads...
What a treat, my Love.
I'm surfing around looking for you and i find this ex-premie
site. It focuses on your words (the word 'orange') and not your
gift (the orange). Then the letters to the editor are mostly
from people like myself who have enjoyed your gift for years
and try to tell the editor that.
Anyway, he made a little place here to write you a letter so
here's a letter. Words do not express our love but let me
go throught the motions.
LOVE
U LOVE
U LOVE ME
Ha Ha (you make me smile, and my smile is yours...)
Thank you :-) forever
ps goto line 13
oh yeah, my name is Rob Vanderkam. See you inside...
--------------------
Rob Followed this one up with another message...
My name is Rob Vanderkam and I received K in '77.
I just want to say that after reading a lot of your site,
I still haven't seen you point out anything that is
negative about Maharaji.
What I see is you putting your spin on it, but that shows
me more about your perspective on life than it does of
the so-called 'terrible' man Maharaji is.
In general, you've provided two things.
1) A lot of dated material from when Maharaji was young,
naive and inexperienced in politics and media.
2) More recent stuff about initiators, which is, in my
experience, true for *anyone* who wants to achieve
uncommon heights. Would you say that Michael Jordon was
deluded because he thought he could be a big star one day?
More importantly, could he make it without uncommmon
dedication, which comes at great personal expense? (Where is
your link to the cult of hockey, where young boys and
girls actually dare to dream that they will be in the NHL
one day, but then realize that they've given so much and
still didn't make it?)
I think you are bitter because you made some interpretations
on the opportunity he provides that turned out to be wrong.
So now you want to blame him. You probably lie to yourself about
other things too? Since you've 'left' him, have you now gone
and become the best person you can, or are there other bogey-men
from your past and present who youe now to blame for your lack of
success?
See, I'm assuming you are not as successful as you want to
be. I'm assuming that, because if you knew about success, you
would know that it comes from accepting personal responsibility
for your life. Maharaji gave me something, 20 years ago, that
enabled me to start learning about that. He gave me consciousness.
You know, the light turned on in my head and I could see.
It was a beginning. But only a beginning. It was up to me to
water and feed the sprouting seed. Your life is your responsibility,
not his. I had an initiator tell me it was "okay to use my
mind to figure out which bus to take but that was pushing it",
but it was up to me to realize that he was sincere, but wrong.
Maharaji showed me that all the barriers in my life were
illusion, that there was nothing real about my imitations
unless I accepted their reality. He showed me that there
was more to life than what I had thought there was.
For that I'm eternally and willingly in his debt. I don't
repay him with money or service. I just try to experience the
way cool love that I found behind some of the unreal barriers
that he showed me were just childhood constructs.
Maharaji tried to teach you that. Perhaps you never really
trusted him. Perhaps you just got caught up in his words and
activities instead of what was in you. Perhaps you didn't
need what he offered, but you needed help and were willing to
take advantage of someone who was willing to stand up and say
he could help.
Perhaps you didn't realize that he could only give you peace,
but it was up to you to live that peace.
I ask nothing from Maharaji, since he's already given me every-
thing. Maybe that's why I'm not dissappointed with him.
Regards,
Rob
-----------------------
It's predictable stuff which we've heard a zillion times before, but if anyone feels like offering Rob a response, I'll let him know that I've posted his messages here.
David
P.S. Since the Message to M page doesn't seem to be generating much interest, shall I take it off the site? If anyone feels like posting something, click on the link.
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Date: Sun, Dec 14, 1997 at 17:52:57 (EST)
Poster: David
Email: d@vid
To: All
Subject: Re: P.S... (Re: No shortage of suckers...)
Message:
P.S. Isn't it ironic that since BigM closed down Harlan's premie site, all these toe-kissing surfers will have to communicate with the great man through us? I'd be interested to know whether any of you feel we should include Rob's messages on the site in the spirit of charity and fair play.
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Date: Sun, Dec 14, 1997 at 17:58:43 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: David
Subject: Re: No shortage of suckers...
Message:
Hi David -
To answer your question, I certainly don't have any messages that I'd like to send to Maharaji. Also, I would prefer if you didn't post Rob's message on the site. Just my personal opinion - I find it irritating. I am tired of premies telling me that I haven't taken responsibility for my own life.
Regards from
Katie
Katie
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Date: Sun, Dec 14, 1997 at 18:08:42 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: David
Subject: Re: P.S... (Re: No shortage of suckers...)
Message:
What I would really like to know is why it is now OK for premies (excepting our friends CD, op, and Mili, who have always posted on here) to post satsang on here, even though it became not OK to post it on Harlan's site. Is this something that PAM said or something? Is it because all the ex-premies are going to hell anyway? Just wondering, because it doesn't make sense to me.
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Date: Sun, Dec 14, 1997 at 18:20:34 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email: joger02@aol.com
To: Katie
Subject: Re: No shortage of suckers...
Message:
Hi David -
To answer your question, I certainly don't have any messages that I'd like to send to Maharaji. Also, I would prefer if you didn't post Rob's message on the site. Just my personal opinion - I find it irritating. I am tired of premies telling me that I haven't taken responsibility for my own life.
Regards from
Katie
Katie
Yes, I agree with katie, the response nearly made me physically ill because we have heard it so many times. Is this what M sauys about us?
These statements lead me to believe that Orwell was right, you really CAN re-write history and revise it completely and get people to accept it. I also hate the assumptions that ex-premies just much have problems and want someone to blame. Everyone has problems, but, from what I have seen, the ex-premies I know are very successful people and unanimously say they are MUCH happier since they got away from the cult than they were in it. As Andy Rooney would say: "I know I am!"
JW
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Date: Sun, Dec 14, 1997 at 20:59:10 (EST)
Poster: Sir David
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: David
Subject: Re: No shortage of suckers...
Message:
Another holier than thou premie who thinks he can talk down to people and point out their wrongdoings.
Regarding what he said about the initiator telling him that thinking about which bus to catch was pushing it; Maharaji said to his initiators many times, "Every time you think, you kick Maharaji in the teeth!"
Yes Maharaji really said that and meant it. What a load of complete and utter bullshit we were involved in. All this from an alcaholic guru who only revealed the fantastic secret fifth technique to Bill Patterson. What a load of crap.
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Date: Sun, Dec 14, 1997 at 21:22:05 (EST)
Poster: Sir David
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: Katie
Subject: Re: P.S... (Re: No shortage of suckers...)
Message:
I don't particularly want to read this guy's posts but if he wants to post them here himself then he's welcome to. I don't see the point in forwarding them from another site though.
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Date: Sun, Dec 14, 1997 at 22:55:32 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email: joger02@aol.com
To: David
Subject: Re: No shortage of suckers...
Message:
Another thing that is so irritating about this post is, once again, some premie saying that ex-premies didn't practice knowledge correctly and hence went astray. I think "Rob" said we "made some interpretations that turned out to be wrong." Well, ROB, if this is true, it doesn't say much for the "master" who was supposed to be directing us, does it? Pretty shitty job if you ask me. I mean he's lost 90% of the people who received knowledge? Did they ALL make the wrong "interpretation?" Was he too "inexperienced in politics and media" to tell his devotees the correct "interpretation?"
And I guess it was just my bad luck to get involved with the lord of the universe when he was "naive" and "inexperienced in politics and media." Is that what it's all about ROB? -- "politics and media?" Is that the great experience you're having with the new and improved Maharaji who has gotten his political and media act together? Oh, that's right. It's all Madison Avenue. Not the message, just the saviness of the media. And what "politics" is ROB talking about? Those of Machiavelli, maybe?
JW
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Date: Mon, Dec 15, 1997 at 02:08:24 (EST)
Poster: Frank
Email: Frank@Ernest.not
To: all you cute lil mongers
Subject: Frankly (Re: No shortage of suckers...)
Message:
??BigM closed down Harlan's premie site??do not spread lies or rumours. tsk tsk tsk
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Date: Mon, Dec 15, 1997 at 02:35:42 (EST)
Poster: What a load of crap.
Email: What a load of crap.
To: Sir David
Subject: Re: What a load of crap. (Re: No shortage of suckers...)
Message:
What a load of crap.
What a load of crap.
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Date: Mon, Dec 15, 1997 at 02:41:52 (EST)
Poster: Frank
Email: Frank@Funk.Ronk
To: JW
Subject: what went wrong? (Re: No shortage of suckers...)
Message:
ex-premies didn't practice knowledge correctly and hence went astray.good point.
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Date: Mon, Dec 15, 1997 at 05:57:45 (EST)
Poster: Sir David
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: What a load of crap.
Subject: Re: What a load of crap. (Re: No shortage of suckers...)
Message:
If you want to insult me, brother, have the decency and courage to give your name and correct email address, otherwise you are merely illustrating how sad, pathetic and spineless you really are.
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Date: Mon, Dec 15, 1997 at 10:19:13 (EST)
Poster: Rob Vanderkam
Email:
To: Everyone
Subject: Re: No shortage of suckers...
Message:
Hi,
David someone wrote me after I posted a message to Maharaji and a message to the feedback page, both through the ex-premie site. Both were posted here in the discussion group.
Why on earth would you post a message meant for someone else here for everyone to read? You said Maharaji sometimes reads here so feel free to write him, so I did, and you post it here.
David also called my feedback "predictable". Calling me a "sucker" and putting my comments down isn't the way to have a conversation.
My point is that I don't see anything here except a bunch of people who are feeling threatened. I could be wrong, but then why would every statement get jumped on so strongly? You just make yourselves look desparate to be right and make premies look wrong.
The point of my message was that the creators of this ex-premie site seem to have been dissappointed that Maharaji didn't solve all their problems for them, or that he didn't live up to some expectation they had. I'd be happy to discuss this with anyone who knows how to have a conversation.
I'd also like to hear from anyone who can tell me that they got nothing good from Maharaji.
Rob
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Date: Mon, Dec 15, 1997 at 12:09:28 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email: joger02@aol.com
To: Frank
Subject: Re: what went wrong? (Re: No shortage of suckers...)
Message:
ex-premies didn't practice knowledge correctly and hence went astray.good point.
Well, Frank, pretty shitty to take that statement out of context, but now that you raise the issue, just HOW did ex-premies practice knowledge "wrong?" and how does that reflect on the guy formerly known as the lord of the universe, who was supposed to be instructing them/us?
JW
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Date: Mon, Dec 15, 1997 at 12:21:42 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email: joger02@aol.com
To: Rob Vanderkam
Subject: Re: No shortage of suckers...
Message:
Hi,
David someone wrote me after I posted a message to Maharaji and a message to the feedback page, both through the ex-premie site. Both were posted here in the discussion group.
Why on earth would you post a message meant for someone else here for everyone to read? You said Maharaji sometimes reads here so feel free to write him, so I did, and you post it here.
David also called my feedback 'predictable'. Calling me a 'sucker' and putting my comments down isn't the way to have a conversation.
My point is that I don't see anything here except a bunch of people who are feeling threatened. I could be wrong, but then why would every statement get jumped on so strongly? You just make yourselves look desparate to be right and make premies look wrong.
The point of my message was that the creators of this ex-premie site seem to have been dissappointed that Maharaji didn't solve all their problems for them, or that he didn't live up to some expectation they had. I'd be happy to discuss this with anyone who knows how to have a conversation.
I'd also like to hear from anyone who can tell me that they got nothing good from Maharaji.
Rob
Well, you might "get something good" out of just about ANYTHING, including spending time in prison, but that is a pretty LOW standard if that is all you expect from a guy holding himself out to be god walking on the planet. And he DID do that Rob, you know. I was there, I heard him.
I think you got "jumped on" because you summarily labeled a whole bunch of people as ALL feeling "threatened" or "wanting someone to blame." You, for example, not knowing me, can't know that about me. I would think you would feel much the same way and might want to "jump on" me if I said you were an idiot, a mindless,programmed cult member, etc. But I wouldn't do that. When you feel attacked, one tends to attack back. And as I said, I am insulted by someone telling me I didn't practice knowledge correctly or was just too stupid to figure out what Maharaji and knowledge was about. I call that blaming the victim.
For the most part, and there are always exceptions, from what I've seen, most of the ex-premies who post here talk about their own experiences with Maharaji and also extend their opinions about him and his knowledge. I might attack what a premie says, but I'm always careful not to discredit what they say is their experience of knowledge or Maharaji, although it might be very different from mine. I would think you could do the same.
And I think what many ex-premies say has much more to do with truth than "disappointment." My only "disappointment" is that I didn't discover what a charlatan Maharaji is until after I spent 10 years following his direction and lived a rather miserable life of poverty, chastity and obedience. That kind of thing can make me a little cross sometimes.
JW
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Date: Mon, Dec 15, 1997 at 12:28:56 (EST)
Poster: Mr Ex
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: what went wrong? (Re: No shortage of suckers...)
Message:
ex-premies didn't practice knowledge correctly and hence went astray.good point.
Well, Frank, pretty shitty to take that statement out of context, but now that you raise the issue, just HOW did ex-premies practice knowledge 'wrong?' and how does that reflect on the guy formerly known as the lord of the universe, who was supposed to be instructing them/us?
JW
yeah ....... I'm one of these ! must be a desperate case
Maharaji tried, and I tried, I had so many K reviews,
even quite some with the Lord Himself!
I must be some devil's reincarnation:-))
Some Raksash at least .....
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Date: Mon, Dec 15, 1997 at 13:09:35 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: No shortage of suckers...
Message:
My only 'disappointment' is that I didn't discover what a charlatan Maharaji is until after I spent 10 years following his direction and lived a rather miserable life of poverty, chastity and obedience. That kind of thing can make me a little cross sometimes.
JW
Tough luck.
So you spent 10 years of your life following him and now you are going to spend the rest of your life lamenting about it. That's really pathetic, JW.
One of the functions of a guru seems to be to serve as a scapegoat for some people's frustrations. You couldn't find fulfillment and now you are blaming someone else for it.
It's within inside of you, JW, remember? That's what he's been telling you from the very beginning. It's YOU. If you can't find it there, you will always be dissapointed.
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Date: Mon, Dec 15, 1997 at 13:54:47 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email: joger02@aol.com
To: Mili
Subject: Re: No shortage of suckers...
Message:
My only 'disappointment' is that I didn't discover what a charlatan Maharaji is until after I spent 10 years following his direction and lived a rather miserable life of poverty, chastity and obedience. That kind of thing can make me a little cross sometimes.
JW
Tough luck.
So you spent 10 years of your life following him and now you are going to spend the rest of your life lamenting about it. That's really pathetic, JW.
One of the functions of a guru seems to be to serve as a scapegoat for some people's frustrations. You couldn't find fulfillment and now you are blaming someone else for it.
It's within inside of you, JW, remember? That's what he's been telling you from the very beginning. It's YOU. If you can't find it there, you will always be dissapointed.
Who said I haven't found fulfillment? Where did you ever get THAT idea? Certainly not from me. And what "frustrations" are you talking about? Like anyone else, including you I would imagine, I get frustrated sometimes, like when I can't find a parking place, and because of the unsightly mold build-up in the grout in my bathroom shower. Would Mahrarji help those frustrations? Now in terms of what is the purpose of my life, enjoying life, and feeling fulfilled, I can honestly say I don't feel frustrated, and I don't think you have ever seen me "lament about it."
And Mili, if you are so fulfilled, why do you bother to bitch at me? Is it because you are getting something out of it? Is it fun? Are you getting something Maharaji and knowledge can't give you? Is it because you get to express yourself here about your experience, when Maharaji has done just about everything he can to prevent you from doing that?
I'm quite aware of what is inside of me, but thanks for the advice anyway.
Regarding spending time "lamenting" I think I've made it clear that I didn't even address cult issues for a good 10 years after I left. I didn't even talk about it, in lamentable terms or not." Now I talk about it sometimes because I enjoy it and because I find it helpful to sort out that period in my life.
JW
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Date: Mon, Dec 15, 1997 at 14:49:20 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email: joger02@aol.com
To: Frank and Brian
Subject: Re: Frankly (Re: No shortage of suckers...)
Message:
??BigM closed down Harlan's premie site??do not spread lies or rumours. tsk tsk tsk
Check Brian's message regarding the telephone conversation with Booth at Elan Vital -- it's on the web site. Pretty clear who was behind it. Care to repeat it, Brian?
JW
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Date: Mon, Dec 15, 1997 at 15:36:49 (EST)
Poster: Michael
Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net
To: Katie
Subject: Re: No shortage of suckers...
Message:
Hi David -
To answer your question, I certainly don't have any messages that I'd like to send to Maharaji. Also, I would prefer if you didn't post Rob's message on the site. Just my personal opinion - I find it irritating. I am tired of premies telling me that I haven't taken responsibility for my own life.
Regards from
Katie
Katie
I agree with you, Katie. I'm tired of Premies posting on this site to tell me that I didn't practice knowledge correctly, or that I misunderstood the Big M. I have been much happier since I left the Premie fold; I married (our 20th anniversary will be in March), I have two intelligent daughters, I've played in some cool bands, I'm presently working on my second M.A., and I am enjoying my life. I don't have to worry about people telling me that I'm 'in my mind' everytime I have an original thought, and I don't have to listen to mind-numbing repetitions of "I used to be angry at everything but this knowledge is so beautiful that I'm happy all the time." I wish that these Premies would be obedient to M's agya and stop posting here.
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Date: Mon, Dec 15, 1997 at 16:00:57 (EST)
Poster: Rob Vanderkam
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: No shortage of suckers...
Message:
Hi JW,
> Well, you might 'get something good' out of just about
> ANYTHING, including spending time in prison, but
> that is a pretty LOW standard if that is all you expect
Smile when you say that, pard. ;-)
We all know that it's foolish to call ANY experience a
waste. If it's not that your ten years following your
heart was a waste, is it that you feel GMJ lied to you
and therefore you did things you wasted your time?
> from a guy holding himself out to be god walking on
> the planet. And he DID do that Rob, you know. I was
> there, I heard him.
Life is a mystical experience. Could you have mistaken
a metaphor for fact? You know how hard it is to talk
about spirituality, or any experience, in words. I never
felt he was trying to say he was WHAT *I* THOUGHT GOD
WAS. I thought he just meant that the source of love (god)
was something he could show me in me. And he did.
> I would think you would feel much the same way and
> might want to 'jump on' me if I said you were an
> idiot, a mindless,programmed cult member, etc. But
> I wouldn't do that. When you feel attacked, one tends
> to attack back.
That's obviously true for you, but don't lump me in there
with you. If you called me an idiot I can't see the
benefit of calling you something back. I'd be more
inclined to ask you what your problem is. Maybe I could
help. :-)
> And as I said, I am insulted by someone telling me I
> didn't practice knowledge correctly or was just too
> stupid to figure out what Maharaji and knowledge was
> about. I call that blaming the victim.
Hey, hey, relax JW. It's me, Rob. Don't be so defensive.
If I attacked you, I certainly didn`t mean it. Maybe I can
try to rephrase my point. Let me put it this way:
I'm assuming that your are dissappointed by
what you got from GMJ. Is that true? If so, what is your
motivation for putting your energy into this site?
Rob
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Date: Mon, Dec 15, 1997 at 16:38:31 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Katie
Subject: Who is Pam? (Re: No shortage of suckers...)
Message:
What I would really like to know is why it is now OK for premies (excepting our friends CD, op, and Mili, who have always posted on here) to post satsang on here, even though it became not OK to post it on Harlan's site. Is this something that PAM said or something? Is it because all the ex-premies are going to hell anyway? Just wondering, because it doesn't make sense to me.
One insightful person on the forum told me that I forgot to say who PAM was. PAM is not a perosn - it's is an acronym for the world-famous "people around Maharaji". (My husband suggested that we use the acronym "SPAM" to avoid confusion with real people who might be named PAM.)
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Date: Mon, Dec 15, 1997 at 17:44:52 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email: joger02@aol.com
To: Rob Vanderkam
Subject: Robs Questions (Re: No shortage of suckers...)
Message:
Rob, I didn't call you an idiot, I was trying to point out that if you say, which I think you did, that people who sincerely tried to practice knowledge and devote their lives to Maharaji, because that's what he asked them to do, were just confused or just had the wrong interpretation, while some other, obviously more intelligent, premies had the "correct" interpretation, despite what Maharaji actually said to the contrary, well, that's pretty insulting, and frankly, I think it's hogwash.
Joe
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Date: Mon, Dec 15, 1997 at 17:51:13 (EST)
Poster: David
Email: d@vid
To: Rob Vanderkam
Subject: Answer the question Rob... (Re: No shortage of suckers...)
Message:
Hi Rob,
You seemed a little upset that I posted your messages on this bulletin board but this is a site for EX-premies so I'm not quite sure what you expected.
In my email reponse I asked you a simple question: Do you think the meditation techniques would work just as well without Maharaji?
Well?
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Date: Mon, Dec 15, 1997 at 18:41:15 (EST)
Poster: Rob Vanderkam
Email:
To: David
Subject: Re: Answer the question Rob... (Re: No shortage of suckers...)
Message:
Hi Rob,
You seemed a little upset that I posted your messages on this bulletin board but this is a site for EX-premies so I'm not quite sure what you expected.
In my email reponse I asked you a simple question: Do you think the meditation techniques would work just as well without Maharaji?
Well?
I expressed surprise that you would take a message meant for GMJ and post it here. It is my opinion that messages not posted for the public, written to a particular person, are like letters. Are you saying that being an ex-premie site means you ignore common etiquette? What is the connection between rudeness and ex-premies?
As for your question, I'll be happy to answer if you tell me why you ask?
BTW, what's with your subject "Answer the question Rob"? Should I be feeling like I'm on the spot here? Did I miss something? If I don't answer, will I be assumed guilty of something, or will I melt, or are you just continuing a pattern of rudeness?
I don't mind talking to people, but in public especially, you can't insult me and still expect me to participate.
Regards,
Rob
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Date: Mon, Dec 15, 1997 at 19:10:28 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email: joger02@aol.com
To: Rob Vanderkam
Subject: Re: No shortage of suckers...
Message:
I'm going to try this again, as it appears I didn't include your questions in my last post. I guess I'm still not too swift with responding on this site.
My "bingo" response was to your statement: "It it's not that your ten years following your heart was a waste, is it that you feel GMJ lied to you and therefore you did things [that] wasted your time?" Bingo --- exactly!
I think the rest of the post is understandable. If not, just let me know.
Thanks for your thoughtful questions, Rob.
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Date: Mon, Dec 15, 1997 at 19:34:56 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Rob Vanderkam
Subject: Re: No shortage of suckers...
Message:
Dear Rob,
In your original post (not the one to GMJ, but the one to the ex-premies) you wrote:
"I think you are bitter because you made some interpretations on the opportunity he provides that turned out to be wrong. So now you want to blame him. You probably lie to yourself about other things too? Since you've 'left' him, have you now gone and become the best person you can, or are there other bogey-men from your past and present who youe now to blame for your lack of success?
See, I'm assuming you are not as successful as you want to
be. I'm assuming that, because if you knew about success, you would know that it comes from accepting personal responsibility for your life."
I am one of the people that got angry when I read this. I got angry because 1)you are not the first premie to come here and say that the ex-premies are blaming Maharaji for their problems, and 2)because you assume (and generalize) that all the ex-premies are 'not as successful as they want to be', and imply that we 'lie to ourselves' and don't accept responsibility for our lives.
Here's part of my story. You can read more of it, and more of the ex-premies' stories in the "Journeys" section (under "In Contact" on the ex-premie site. I got knowledge in 1972 when I was 16. I was into some self-destructive behaviour, and didn't really have a home, when I started going to satsang at the ashram. I desperately needed a safe place to be, which I found in Divine Light Mission. I really appreciated the premies' kindness and the fact that they did not appear to judge me.
I got knowledge about a month after I first heard about Guru Maharaji. I really thought it was going to change my life, but it did not. Somehow, although I tried diligently to practice it, I was never able to experience much from meditating on the knowledge. I did, however, like going to satsang and programs, and I liked hanging out with the premies, so I stuck around. In fact I stayed around for five years. Eventually I started to feel trapped - I always felt guilty for not meditating enough, not giving and going to enough satsang, and not doing enough service. I was afraid to leave, however, because I thought that Maharaji was the incarnation of god, and because of certain things he had said, I thought that I was going to go to hell (or my brain would rot) if I left knowledge.
You said in your post to JW (re Maharaji)
"I never felt he was trying to say he was WHAT *I* THOUGHT GOD WAS. I thought he just meant that the source of love (god)was something he could show me in me."
I did think he was god, and so did a lot of other people. If we were supposed to be worshipping god THROUGH him, the distinction escaped me. I think it would escape MOST 16-year-olds (and they gave knowledge to people starting at age 13 back then). In fact, I think this distinction would escape the great majority of 18-year-olds (which is how old you have to be to get knowledge now). Everyone called Maharaji "Lord of the Universe" and "Satguru", we all had altars to him in our houses and cars, we were constantly pranaming to his picture, we kissed his feet, he was compared to Jesus, and so forth. I am really surprised when premies such as yourself say that they didn't think he was supposed to be god, because that was certainly the impression that most of the rest of us had.
I was disappointed by the knowledge meditation. And, I did "give it a fair chance" like Maharaji says, or at least I think I did. I don't blame Maharaji for this, though, and it's not my motivation for putting my energy into this site. I just feel the need to present an alternate viewpoint to premies who may be unhappy with Maharaji and knowledge, but are afraid to leave. I also think aspirants should be able to hear from people who didn't have totally positive experiences with knowledge. (I also like a lot of the people who post on this site and enjoy interacting with them.) I am not interested in converting any premies (like yourself) who are having a satisfying experience following Maharaji.
I don't blame Maharaji for anything that has happened in my life, but I never gave up very much for him like some of the other people on this site did. Also, I was in a much worse place when I encountered DLM then many other people. I am, in fact, grateful to the premies I met when I first heard about knowledge - they helped me a lot. Maybe this credit is due to Maharaji, but I prefer to give it to the premies. I don't feel like my life is either any better OR any worse for having encountered Maharaji. As far as accepting responsibility for my own life, I HAVE learned that over the past 20 years, but not from Maharaji. (In fact, one of my biggest problems with Maharaji is that he appears not to take responsibility for his OWN life.)
I hope this answers some of your questions - if not, let me know.
Regards from Katie
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Date: Mon, Dec 15, 1997 at 19:43:34 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Rob
Subject: P.S. And one more thing... (Re: No shortage of suckers...)
Message:
P.S. You asked JW something about did he think Maharaji lied to him. In my opinion, Maharaji actually believes that he is the Perfect Master, Satguru, and believes everything that that JW listed in his post. I don't think that he is any of those things, although he believes he is. Does representing himself as something he truly believes he is (but is not) constitute lying to other people - I'm not sure.
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Date: Mon, Dec 15, 1997 at 21:01:22 (EST)
Poster: Sir David
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: Rob Vanderkam
Subject: Re: Answer the question Rob... (Re: No shortage of suckers...)
Message:
I agree with you there Rob that your post to Maharaji should not have been forwarded to this forum. If there's been a misunderstanding then I think you deserve an apology. I consider it bad form to put a private post onto a public forum without asking permission first.
I am sorry that this has happened and also sorry that you may have been subject to some ridicule. I think a person's faith, belief or sincere heartfelt feelings should be respected, regardless of whether we agree with them or not. There is too much intolerance of other people's heartfelt experiences or beliefs in this world. Each to his own and respect the other's path, I say.
David.
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Date: Mon, Dec 15, 1997 at 21:19:02 (EST)
Poster: Sir David
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: Katie
Subject: Re: P.S. And one more thing... (Re: No shortage of suckers...)
Message:
Katie this depends on which mode Maharaji is in, whether he's in God mode or ordinary bloke mode.
In the seventies we all know he made many, many references to his God in human form status and his omnipotence and omnipresence.
And yet we also know that by the late seventies he was telling some people that actually, he wasn't really God after all. The last time I saw Maharaji, in 1986 I remember most distinctly that he said, "I am not God."
I believe he's slipping back into the God mode again now. I guess he's God when it suits him or when he thinks people will actually believe it.
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Date: Mon, Dec 15, 1997 at 22:31:40 (EST)
Poster: Brian
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: Frankly (Re: No shortage of suckers...)
Message:
Check Brian's message regarding the telephone conversation with Booth at Elan Vital -- it's on the web site. Pretty clear who was behind it. Care to repeat it, Brian?
Okay, only I didn't talk to Booth. Booth sent the original email contact, but delegated that call to Premie David. I figure SPAM (Stupid People Around Maharaji) let others participate in the contacting of us confused posters to allow more premies to share the blissful service of paying for the phone calls. (I kept David on for 20-30 minutes [grin].)
The link to the page at ex-premie.org is:
Right Here
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Date: Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 02:58:36 (EST)
Poster: op
Email: pam@large
To: Rob Vanderkam
Subject: Re: Answer the question Rob... (Re: No shortage of suckers...)
Message:
Dear Rob:
I guess you're pretty new to the forum.
As for your question, I'll be happy to answer if you tell me why you ask?
BTW, what's with your subject 'Answer the question Rob'? Should I be feeling like I'm on the spot here? Did I miss something? If I don't answer, will I be assumed guilty of something, or will I melt, or are you just continuing a pattern of rudeness?
This is a standard question for this panel. There are a few others. I don't know if it's a kind of initiation rite, but if you stick around long enough you'll get asked all of them.
BTW (aside to) JW: I do feel sorry about not answering you properly about the "Jim wannabes" - Brian was one definite example, but at this point the posts are all so old it would take hours of archive searching to find exactly what triggered that statement. I do remember, though, some ugly insults, meant to hit below the belt. If my aging mind isn't tricking me, you had a couple of them in there too.
Sorry if I insulted anyone by calling them a Jim Wannabe. But if you take a good look at the past two weeks, you'll see that without him as a ringleader, people are not only much more amicable and willing to work things out - they also express their OWN personalities and feelings more readily.
see ya
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Date: Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 08:27:58 (EST)
Poster: Brian
Email: brian@worldnetoh.com
To: op
Subject: Re: Answer the question Rob... (Re: No shortage of suckers...)
Message:
I do feel sorry about not answering [JW] properly about the 'Jim wannabes' - Brian was one definite example, but at this point the posts are all so old it would take hours of archive searching to find exactly what triggered that statement. I do remember, though, some ugly insults, meant to hit below the belt. If my aging mind isn't tricking me, you had a couple of them in there too.
Sorry if I insulted anyone by calling them a Jim Wannabe. But if you take a good look at the past two weeks, you'll see that without him as a ringleader, people are not only much more amicable and willing to work things out - they
also express their OWN personalities and feelings more readily.
pam@large -
You don't REALLY give people credit for expressing "their OWN personalities and feelings" unless that expression is one that allows you to see beyond the broad brush that YOU personally use to paint them as not like you.
With or without Jim having a presence on this forum, my own personality causes me to choke on some of the chickenbone statements made here by you. Without forcing you to run through the archives, I'll refresh your memory as to how I became one of Jim's Dark Angels in your mind.
I posed a question to you which you felt required a non-answer. The question was, "Who Is Maharaji To You?". Your response was that you see him differently at different times. Sometimes you see him as a friend, and other times you see him as a tired old man.
But I had asked you whether you saw him as:
1) A meditation teacher.
2) The Lord.
3) A fraud.
I make no secret that my personal viewpoint is the fraud choice, but you engaged in evasion. While I can respect premies who post here saying that they view MJ as the Lord (although I no longer share that belief), it's been my experience here and as a premie that most will waffle in public and then gush devotional testimony when surrounded by others who will share and support their true viewpoint. This I should respect?
While you have recently been becoming more daring in actually speaking more honestly (posts referring to "the master"), it was YOUR choice to downplay your own viewpoint in the past - however transparently. It was my own expression to call it bullshit when I read it. And I still consider anything less from you than Pranam Gopi's devotional gushing on Harlan's site to be situational insincerity, playing to the audience. I believe that with or without a ringleader's encouragement.
I don't privately profess to love MJ, and then post scathing attacks on him as a fraud in this public forum. So I don't have to waffle or look around for my support. You could choose to either be Pranam Gopi, the devoted, or else to be Old Premie, the compromise personality. You choose instead to dress for the occasion. And you call me and others who post openly "wannabees"??? Bullshit. Your main criticism is that they just don't "wannabe" like you, and choose not to be.
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Date: Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 12:15:18 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email: joger02@aol.com
To: Katie
Subject: Re: P.S. And one more thing... (Re: No shortage of suckers...)
Message:
P.S. You asked JW something about did he think Maharaji lied to him. In my opinion, Maharaji actually believes that he is the Perfect Master, Satguru, and believes everything that that JW listed in his post. I don't think that he is any of those things, although he believes he is. Does representing himself as something he truly believes he is (but is not) constitute lying to other people - I'm not sure.
To Katie and Rob:
I agree with Katie that Maharaji really believes his is god, probably most of the time. But there are times when I think reality kicks in, based on the undeniable evidence that he hasn't been too successful in his self-proclaimed mission, mariage, addiction to alcohol, etc. and then he really doubts it. I have seen occasions in the past when I think that was happening. In those instances, I think he might do things to reinforce his own ego that he must really be god. That might include holding a super-devotional program and to give darshan, even in the west like a few months ago in Australia, asking for grandiose and ridiculously opulent material things, like a Boeing 707, etc. That helps build up his ego that he must really BE more than simply human.
JW
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Date: Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 12:33:50 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email: joger02@aol.com
To: op
Subject: Re: Answer the question Rob... (Re: No shortage of suckers...)
Message:
BTW (aside to) JW: I do feel sorry about not answering you properly about the 'Jim wannabes' - Brian was one definite example, but at this point the posts are all so old it would take hours of archive searching to find exactly what triggered that statement. I do remember, though, some ugly insults, meant to hit below the belt. If my aging mind isn't tricking me, you had a couple of them in there too.
Sorry if I insulted anyone by calling them a Jim Wannabe. But if you take a good look at the past two weeks, you'll see that without him as a ringleader, people are not only much more amicable and willing to work things out - they also express their OWN personalities and feelings more readily.
see ya
OP, you are a true piece of cake. Dishonesty is not the best policy. Oh, and Rob, please be informed that you have now been subjected to the OP "initiation rite." She makes accusations and then slips into excuses of a faulty memory, etc., and makes gratuitous apologies when pressed to back up what she's saying.
You see, Rob, OP is in LOVE with Maharaji, or at least the Maharaji, Prem Pal Singh Rawat, that she had presonal involvment with 25 or more years ago, and she has been living on that nostalgia ever since. That "love" makes her do lots of dishonest stuff, as so well expressed by Brian, and as Jim used to point out so often without mincing any words. When asked to reconcile M's flip flops and damage he has caused his devotees, she slips into vagueness.
I have never considered Jim a "leader" of a ring or anything else. Both current and ex-premies here are individuals with lots of differences in perspectives and opinions, even as to whether M is a fraud or not. There is also a wide range in the way opinions are expressed. Such is the nature of human beings: they tend to be different from one another. BTW -- I don't believe I have hit anyone "below the belt," (again, convenient memory loss (did you testify before the Watergate Committee, by any chance?), but is that how you define a "Jim Wannabee?" Anyone who criticizes what someone else said?
BTW, OP, you conveniently ignored the more significant question I raised, now that you have dodged entirely the "wannabee" accusation you made. That's the issue of darshan. If you look in the archives, you wrote post after post that darshan was culturally misunderstood in the west and Maharaji didn't give darshan anymore for that reason, except maybe in India, where it is looked at more casually. So, why is your lord and master having thousands of people kiss his feet at that program in Australia in September? Seems to contradict everything you were saying, now doesn't it? -- you know, about the new and improved lord of the universe. Did he do it because he thinks he's entitled to be worshiped to the point of having his feet kissed, did he do it for ego support, or did he do it just to raise money since we are informed that he spends $10,000 each and every day just to keep himself in planes, cars and $5,000 suits.
By the way, are aspirants told about darshan in those aspirant programs you also posted about so much?
JW
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Date: Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 16:35:58 (EST)
Poster: op
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: Answer the question Rob... (Re: No shortage of suckers...)
Message:
By the way, are aspirants told about darshan in those aspirant programs you also posted about so much?
Darshan is still a non-issue at aspirant events, since it has no bearing on receiving or practicing Knowledge. I've sent you an email. I presume I'll know if you got it, because it will be returned it you don't.
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Date: Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 19:48:57 (EST)
Poster: Rob
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: No shortage of suckers...
Message:
I'm going to try this again, as it appears I didn't include your questions in my last post. I guess I'm still not too swift with responding on this site.
My 'bingo' response was to your statement: 'It it's not that your ten years following your heart was a waste, is it that you feel GMJ lied to you and therefore you did things [that] wasted your time?' Bingo --- exactly!
I think the rest of the post is understandable. If not, just let me know.
Thanks for your thoughtful questions, Rob.
Hi JW,
My viewer defaults to the latest 50 messages. I only found all these other threads going on after hitting the "see all messages" button.
Let me say this. I exist. I now that. But I don't know where or how. I don't even know WHAT I am. So when I speak in this forum, don't be surprised if I have trouble putting ALL OF THIS AMAZING LIFE!!!! into puny little words. s'aright? s'aright!
Regards,
Rob
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Date: Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 19:55:20 (EST)
Poster: Rob
Email:
To: Katie
Subject: Re: No shortage of suckers...
Message:
HI Katie,
Thanks for your post. I just found it now. Everyone should realize that they may be writing to me and nobody is listening.
Excuse me for answering poorly. Your letter is quite long and I can't keep all of it in my head.
If I say it seems you blame him for bad experiences you had, would that be wrong? If I'm right, you are probably angry. Does that mean necessarily that he is doing bad things in the world? Have you never been mislead by anything else in life?
Regards,
Rob
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Date: Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 19:56:52 (EST)
Poster: Rob
Email:
To: Katie
Subject: Re: P.S. And one more thing... (Re: No shortage of suckers...)
Message:
P.S. You asked JW something about did he think Maharaji lied to him. In my opinion, Maharaji actually believes that he is the Perfect Master, Satguru, and believes everything that that JW listed in his post. I don't think that he is any of those things, although he believes he is. Does representing himself as something he truly believes he is (but is not) constitute lying to other people - I'm not sure.
The way I see it there's two questions here.
1) What the hell is a perfect master anyway.
2) How do I know what he is and what he isn't?
Rob
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Date: Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 19:59:33 (EST)
Poster: rob
Email:
To: Sir David
Subject: orange, or orange? (Re: No shortage of suckers...)
Message:
Katie this depends on which mode Maharaji is in, whether he's in God mode or ordinary bloke mode.
In the seventies we all know he made many, many references to his God in human form status and his omnipotence and omnipresence.
And yet we also know that by the late seventies he was telling some people that actually, he wasn't really God after all. The last time I saw Maharaji, in 1986 I remember most distinctly that he said, 'I am not God.'
I believe he's slipping back into the God mode again now. I guess he's God when it suits him or when he thinks people will actually believe it.
It's all metaphors to me. I challenge anyone to say in words just what a human being is, and have the words be an actual human being. What's GMJ supposed to say? What does he mean when he says things. Who knows? I only know what he showed me.
It's the old "the word orange" vs the real "orange" thing.
Rob
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Date: Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 20:02:35 (EST)
Poster: Rob
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: P.S. And one more thing... (Re: No shortage of suckers...)
Message:
To Katie and Rob:
I agree with Katie that Maharaji really believes his is god, probably most of the time. But there are times when I think reality kicks in, based on the undeniable evidence that he hasn't been too successful in his self-proclaimed mission, mariage, addiction to alcohol, etc. and then he really doubts it. I have seen occasions in the past when I think that was happening. In those instances, I think he might do things to reinforce his own ego that he must really be god. That might include holding a super-devotional program and to give darshan, even in the west like a few months ago in Australia, asking for grandiose and ridiculously opulent material things, like a Boeing 707, etc. That helps build up his ego that he must really BE more than simply human.
JW
With all due respect JW, we are whistling in the wind. Unless you guys are much different than me, how can you have an opinion about this? You base your judgement on his ACTIONS, I think, and there's a problem there.
You are not what you do. You are what you are. What you do and think does not change the basic you that is greater than the sum of your experiences.
Rob
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Date: Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 20:25:33 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email: joger02@aol.com
To: Rob
Subject: Re: P.S. And one more thing... (Re: No shortage of suckers...)
Message:
To Katie and Rob:
With all due respect JW, we are whistling in the wind. Unless you guys are much different than me, how can you have an opinion about this? You base your judgement on his ACTIONS, I think, and there's a problem there.
You are not what you do. You are what you are. What you do and think does not change the basic you that is greater than the sum of your experiences.
Rob
Rob, I think I get the distinction you are making that one is more than one's actions, but I think it is also true that one's actions are reflective of who or what one is. Otherwise, responsibility and motivation for actions are illusions. I certainly don't accept that, as it's contrary to what I have seen in my life. I think it is entirely possible, and probably a responsible thing to do, to have an opinion about someone based on their actions. And the opinion gets further informed when the you see the person take more actions. I think not to do so is to relinquish responsibility for seeing what's before you. And that leads to all sorts of problems.
I don't disagree that "you" and/ore "me" are greater than the sum of our experiences, but I don't see where that is relevent to the discussion we are having.
JW
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Date: Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 20:44:49 (EST)
Poster: Rob
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: P.S. And one more thing... (Re: No shortage of suckers...)
Message:
I don't disagree that 'you' and/ore 'me' are greater than the sum of our experiences, but I don't see where that is relevent to the discussion we are having.
Frankly, I'm having a very hard time "working" this discussion machine. I keep feeling like saying, "What WERE we talking about anyway".
I made the point, I think, because I hear people saying Maharaji is a liar (among other things). If he said to me that he was blue when I saw red, I would try to figure out where the confusion was, not say he was wrong. It IS all perspective after all. He told me he would bring peace to the earth and he did, for me, and therefore I figure he can do it for anyone that wants it. In fact, you know that part about coming with the heart of a child? I think that was what actually gave me peace; opening my heart I mean. But when I did it, and got it, I felt love for him. I now prefer to keep it that way. You can come up with reasons for not loving all your life if you look for them.
Rob
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Date: Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 21:04:43 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Rob
Subject: Re: No shortage of suckers...
Message:
Dear Rob - You might want to go back and read my post. If you access if, you can read it while you are answering it.
In it I said that I don't blame GMJ for anything. I don't think I ever did. I said that I was disappointed in the knowledge - that it didn't appear to do the things for me that it did for other people. For a long time (while I was a premie) I thought this was my fault. It was quite liberating to find out that there was a whole world out there that had never heard of GMJ or knowledge. I want to make sure that other premies who may be feeling bad know this too. This is why I participate in the ex-premie site. I don't feel bitter about it because I never gave up that much for GMJ - however I can understand why people who did give up a lot for GMJ DO feel bitter about the whole trip.
If you get a chance, read some of the ex-premies "Journeys" entries. It might help you to understand where some of us are coming from.
Regards,
Katie
P.S. Just so you know, I did repost my original message above (under "To Rob")
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Date: Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 23:08:25 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email: joger02@aol.com
To: Rob
Subject: Re: P.S. And one more thing... (Re: No shortage of suckers...)
Message:
I made the point, I think, because I hear people saying Maharaji is a liar (among other things). If he said to me that he was blue when I saw red, I would try to figure out where the confusion was, not say he was wrong. It IS all perspective after all.
This is where I disagree. It is not just "perspective." And I used to be in the same place you appear to me. When Maharaji said something that was counter to my own values and better judgment, I also, tried to figure out where I was "confused" instead of trusting my own better judgment. So, when Maharaji said a devotee should dedicate his or her life to him, I didn't question it, anything that said anything contrary to what the all-knowing and all-powerful lord was saying was just, like you say, "confusion" or in the vernacular we used at the time, it was "mind." In relying on who he portrayed himself to be, I did a lot of things that turned out to be big mistakes in retrospect. Now, I don't say M is a "liar" because I think at times at least he believes his own delusion.
As to your own personal experience of what you have gotten from Maharaji, I can't comment because I don't know. If you have gotten good from him, good for you, but not everyone did.
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Date: Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 23:08:26 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email: joger02@aol.com
To: Rob
Subject: Re: P.S. And one more thing... (Re: No shortage of suckers...)
Message:
I made the point, I think, because I hear people saying Maharaji is a liar (among other things). If he said to me that he was blue when I saw red, I would try to figure out where the confusion was, not say he was wrong. It IS all perspective after all.
This is where I disagree. It is not just "perspective." And I used to be in the same place you appear to me. When Maharaji said something that was counter to my own values and better judgment, I also, tried to figure out where I was "confused" instead of trusting my own better judgment. So, when Maharaji said a devotee should dedicate his or her life to him, I didn't question it, anything that said anything contrary to what the all-knowing and all-powerful lord was saying was just, like you say, "confusion" or in the vernacular we used at the time, it was "mind." In relying on who he portrayed himself to be, I did a lot of things that turned out to be big mistakes in retrospect. Now, I don't say M is a "liar" because I think at times at least he believes his own delusion.
As to your own personal experience of what you have gotten from Maharaji, I can't comment because I don't know. If you have gotten good from him, good for you, but not everyone did.
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Date: Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 23:08:35 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email: joger02@aol.com
To: Rob
Subject: Re: P.S. And one more thing... (Re: No shortage of suckers...)
Message:
I made the point, I think, because I hear people saying Maharaji is a liar (among other things). If he said to me that he was blue when I saw red, I would try to figure out where the confusion was, not say he was wrong. It IS all perspective after all.
This is where I disagree. It is not just "perspective." And I used to be in the same place you appear to me. When Maharaji said something that was counter to my own values and better judgment, I also, tried to figure out where I was "confused" instead of trusting my own better judgment. So, when Maharaji said a devotee should dedicate his or her life to him, I didn't question it, anything that said anything contrary to what the all-knowing and all-powerful lord was saying was just, like you say, "confusion" or in the vernacular we used at the time, it was "mind." In relying on who he portrayed himself to be, I did a lot of things that turned out to be big mistakes in retrospect. Now, I don't say M is a "liar" because I think at times at least he believes his own delusion.
As to your own personal experience of what you have gotten from Maharaji, I can't comment because I don't know. If you have gotten good from him, good for you, but not everyone did.
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Date: Tues, Dec 16, 1997 at 23:14:20 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email: joger02@aol.com
To: op
Subject: Re: Answer the question Rob... (Re: No shortage of suckers...)
Message:
Darshan is still a non-issue at aspirant events, since it has no bearing on receiving or practicing Knowledge.
And on whose opinion is this based? If you ask premies, darsahn has a direct bearing on how knowledge is practiced, at least the premies I know and have known.
I think it's also reflective of who or what Maharaji thinks he is. I don't see any reason that it should be hidden from aspriants. At least when I received knowledge, the fact the premies kissed Maharaji's feet was not hidden from people.
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Date: Wed, Dec 17, 1997 at 06:10:56 (EST)
Poster: Mr Ex
Email:
To: Rob
Subject: Re: No shortage of suckers...
Message:
I would say exactly the same thing : it took me almost 25 years to finally discover that I’ve been mislead by a doubtful guru.
Katie, JW and many others were lucky enough to understand it before me.
I also know that 1 year ago I wouldn’t have disobeyed Mr PPR’s wishes not to post on the Internet without lots of guilt and anxious feelings.
You guys must be different of have been bestowed some special grace.
Unlike many others, I had the chance, for various reasons, to have a wonderful experience in practicing meditation.
It took me time and going through a lot of anxiety to discover that this meditation experience was not linked to Mr PPR.
He is a meditation teacher, no doubt.
What’s wrong is that he takes you in a cult-worshipping-darshan-adoration-devotion-premiedom cult-life that I now understand as being very dangerous for a ‘regular’ westerner (like me).
If there are some people like Mili, op and many others who enjoy being devoted to the present reincarnation of Hari, Lord of the Universe, whatever name you want to give him : FINE.
There are also lots of people living in monasteries, or as monks in various cults : FINE.
If some of these premies say they just consider Mr PPR as their meditation teacher : FINE.
BUT : what has been written here and all the documents published on the ex-premie web-site prove that Mr PPR promotes what is considered as a cult.
If some people are wise enough not to fall in the trap and consider Mr PPR as a regular yoga teacher : FINE.
If some premies try to show that Mr PPR is not what he really is, like his PR staff, organizers, full time instructors and blind devotees : FINE.
At least there is now a medium (Internet) to publish the other side of the story : what all the premies try to hide.
I think (because I know a lot of them, and I’ve been in that situation too) that they are ashamed of their own feelings towards this idol. It is extremely difficult to admit that someone you love cheated and deceived you.
This is a very common problem, it’s what makes tens of thousands of therapists bred.
As I’ve been involved in Elan Vital’s organization for more than 20 years, I had many opportunities to witness what happened to many people lured into what they didn’t want to.
Of course there are quite some people who feel fine being in an idol worship cult : FINE.
I know many people who have been involved in this cult for very long, and who now try to leave it because they finally realized how much damage it did to them : it is very difficult.
I can also see that there are aspirants who keep falling in what I consider as a trap. It will be a nice place for some, it will be a bad experience for 90% of them, as it has been for these tens of thousands of westerners who got ’knowledge’ one day.
THAT IS WHY I decided to participate in the _ ex-premie.org _ web-site, and to say what I had to say.
I gave copies of the instructor’s hand books I owned.
I told what (I know) happens behind the curtains of these nice meetings.
There is a lot more happening behind the curtains.
I just hope that others will dare to say what they have been involved in, so that new people can at least be warned.
Again, if some people want to spend their life in adoration of a guru : FINE.
If some people want to spend their time working for him and sending him as much money as they can : FINE.
This is what truly (from my point of view) what Elan Vital Inc. is all about.
The teaching of the meditation technique is nothing : as Mr PPR himself said many time in so many discourses, these techniques are nothing without the relationship to the master. Remember the triangle’s story he recalls so often ?
IS ANYBODY READY TO ACCEPT WHAT A RELATIONSHIP WITH Mr PPR INVOLVES ?
To be able to accept it, you need to be informed, and not only by Mr PPR.
As for anything else ‘in this world’ !
There are lots of other issues that have not been addressed here yet, like :
_ what about this huge ‘security’ organization inside (and outside) Elan Vital.
_ what about these businesses (Amtext, NSA) where people are so encouraged in.
_ what about the actual huge debts of Elan Vital Inc.
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Date: Wed, Dec 17, 1997 at 07:54:29 (EST)
Poster: Brian
Email:
To: Mr Ex
Subject: Re: No shortage of suckers...
Message:
If some premies try to show that Mr PPR is not what he really is, like his PR staff, organizers, full time instructors and blind devotees : FINE.
At least there is now a medium (Internet) to publish the other side of the story: what all the premies try to hide.
what all the premies try to hide is definitely the operative phrase here. I've watched this happen repeatedly in the posts from the faithful in a.c.m and in the forum.
The waffling and outright lying in attempt to justify MJ's actions and words is an ongoing process that starts with the evasive treatment of aspirants ("watch another carefully edited video") and continues on through to the responses given to ex-premies who got tired of participating in the deception.
The lying starts at the top with MJ personally, and is a learned response to probing questions - from both outsiders and premies themselves. The human capacity to practice self-deception is the rock that MJ's entire enterprise is built upon.
The way things are now, MJ doesn't even trust the average devotee to lie properly to aspirants. Newbies are passed on the properly "trained" people. The ability to swallow his line of bullshit without question, and to regurgitate on demand, is the main requirement for handling aspirants.
How disappointed he must be in you, Mr. Ex :)
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Date: Wed, Dec 17, 1997 at 10:13:38 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email:
To: Mr Ex
Subject: Re: No shortage of suckers...
Message:
I would say exactly the same thing : it took me almost 25 years to finally discover that I’ve been mislead by a doubtful guru.
Katie, JW and many others were lucky enough to understand it before me.
I also know that 1 year ago I wouldn’t have disobeyed Mr PPR’s wishes not to post on the Internet without lots of guilt and anxious feelings.
You guys must be different of have been bestowed some special grace.
Unlike many others, I had the chance, for various reasons, to have a wonderful experience in practicing meditation.
It took me time and going through a lot of anxiety to discover that this meditation experience was not linked to Mr PPR.
He is a meditation teacher, no doubt.
What’s wrong is that he takes you in a cult-worshipping-darshan-adoration-devotion-premiedom cult-life that I now understand as being very dangerous for a ‘regular’ westerner (like me).
If there are some people like Mili, op and many others who enjoy being devoted to the present reincarnation of Hari, Lord of the Universe, whatever name you want to give him : FINE.
There are also lots of people living in monasteries, or as monks in various cults : FINE.
If some of these premies say they just consider Mr PPR as their meditation teacher : FINE.
BUT : what has been written here and all the documents published on the ex-premie web-site prove that Mr PPR promotes what is considered as a cult.
If some people are wise enough not to fall in the trap and consider Mr PPR as a regular yoga teacher : FINE.
If some premies try to show that Mr PPR is not what he really is, like his PR staff, organizers, full time instructors and blind devotees : FINE.
At least there is now a medium (Internet) to publish the other side of the story : what all the premies try to hide.
I think (because I know a lot of them, and I’ve been in that situation too) that they are ashamed of their own feelings towards this idol. It is extremely difficult to admit that someone you love cheated and deceived you.
This is a very common problem, it’s what makes tens of thousands of therapists bred.
As I’ve been involved in Elan Vital’s organization for more than 20 years, I had many opportunities to witness what happened to many people lured into what they didn’t want to.
Of course there are quite some people who feel fine being in an idol worship cult : FINE.
I know many people who have been involved in this cult for very long, and who now try to leave it because they finally realized how much damage it did to them : it is very difficult.
I can also see that there are aspirants who keep falling in what I consider as a trap. It will be a nice place for some, it will be a bad experience for 90% of them, as it has been for these tens of thousands of westerners who got ’knowledge’ one day.
THAT IS WHY I decided to participate in the _ ex-premie.org _ web-site, and to say what I had to say.
I gave copies of the instructor’s hand books I owned.
I told what (I know) happens behind the curtains of these nice meetings.
There is a lot more happening behind the curtains.
I just hope that others will dare to say what they have been involved in, so that new people can at least be warned.
Again, if some people want to spend their life in adoration of a guru : FINE.
If some people want to spend their time working for him and sending him as much money as they can : FINE.
This is what truly (from my point of view) what Elan Vital Inc. is all about.
The teaching of the meditation technique is nothing : as Mr PPR himself said many time in so many discourses, these techniques are nothing without the relationship to the master. Remember the triangle’s story he recalls so often ?
IS ANYBODY READY TO ACCEPT WHAT A RELATIONSHIP WITH Mr PPR INVOLVES ?
To be able to accept it, you need to be informed, and not only by Mr PPR.
As for anything else ‘in this world’ !
There are lots of other issues that have not been addressed here yet, like :
_ what about this huge ‘security’ organization inside (and outside) Elan Vital.
_ what about these businesses (Amtext, NSA) where people are so encouraged in.
_ what about the actual huge debts of Elan Vital Inc.
What about substantial, actual, hard PROOF of all these accusations you make? You've produced nothing but onesided opinions and speculations so far.
Gurucharanand having an affair? HAH!
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Date: Wed, Dec 17, 1997 at 11:05:00 (EST)
Poster: Mr Ex
Email:
To: Brian
Subject: Re: No shortage of suckers...
Message:
>what all the premies try to hide is definitely the operative phrase here. I've watched this happen repeatedly in the posts from the faithful in a.c.m and in the forum.
Big problem for each premie. Big issue in every ‘service’ meetings : ‘What can we say ? What are we supposed to answer to such and such question ?’ Poor guys.
>The waffling and outright lying in attempt to justify MJ's actions and words is an ongoing process that starts with the evasive treatment of aspirants ('watch another carefully edited video') and continues on through to the responses given to ex-premies who got tired of participating in the deception.
Look at the new documents I just posted today.
>The lying starts at the top with MJ personally, and is a learned response to probing questions - from both outsiders and premies themselves. The human capacity to practice self-deception is the rock that MJ's entire enterprise is built upon.
Like so many deceitful businesses ‘in this world’. BigM is no different. I naively thought he was some sort of ‘saint’. That the problem was only with ‘SPAMS’. When you are the boss, you choose the people around you. Mr PPR does. See what it means. Like in any company, family, group of any kind. I was completely blind to this fact.
Maybe PP keeps complaining about people around him. I heard some comments about it. Maybe I could give him some suggestions.
Hi PP, why don’t you email me ? We could be friends ! Even though I don’t approve many things you are doing, I don’t have anything against you in particular. We could go out for dinner. I know some good and simple places. I have a spare bed in my apartment. You are welcome if you feel lonely.
(This was a private message).
>The way things are now, MJ doesn't even trust the average devotee to lie properly to aspirants. Newbies are passed on the properly 'trained' people. The ability to swallow his line of bullshit without question, and to regurgitate on demand, is the main requirement for handling aspirants.
Even these ‘properly trained’ people are wavering. Look at what happened with me !
>How disappointed he must be in you, Mr. Ex :)
As I have been actively participating in this business, I had to understand why I had such an extreme position. Most of premies keep away from all this and don’t want to be involved too much. They are very aware of all this cheat and deceit. They just do some ‘service’ from time to time, enough to be in peace with their guilt feelings. Like when Mr PPR shows up, or send a check once a year to EV or Mr PPR himself.
I was naive (like many) and have been abused. Mr PPR has many aspects, depending from how close/far you look at him. Stay as far as possible, if you can.
Be friendly with him, but no devotee nor a lover.
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Date: Wed, Dec 17, 1997 at 12:08:29 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email: joger02@aol.com
To: Brian
Subject: Re: No shortage of suckers...
Message:
Speaking of the deception coming from the top, OP says below that darshan, and the fact that MJ held a darshan line in Australia in September, to thousands of westerners, is not a relevent subject in an aspirant program. So, that information is withheld from them and, instead aspirants go through the oh-so-controlled aspirant progam with the carefully edited videos and all the rest of it. But darshan IS relevent, because it is a clear reflection of who or what MJ thinks he is, and, apparently, what a large number of the premies think he is. The reason it isn't told to aspirants is pure deceit. MJ knows that the fact that thousands of people kiss his feet would send most thinking, potential aspirants, heading for the hills. At least when I was an aspirant darshan was fully disclosed, but that was a different time, and getting high in darshan was an attraction, especially to the hippie freaks that K was being propogated to at the time. But no more.
Another deception, from the top: I recall in the early 80s when MJ wanted that Boeing 707 plane, completely rennovated by hundreds of premies, at the cost of multi-millions of dollars, the fundraising was intense. But, for some reason, MJ decided that it wasn't the best PR that it get out to the rank and file premies, who were being asked to fork over the money for this boondoggle by the way, including being asked to max out their credit cards, shouldn't know the real use of the money. SO, they were lied to and told the money was going towards a "world tour." Remember that? You're right, the deception comes from the top and when you live with that kind of deception all around you, you get good at rationalizing it in your own head, as I did, and as so many premies do.
JW
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Date: Wed, Dec 17, 1997 at 14:16:03 (EST)
Poster: Rob
Email:
To: Katie
Subject: Annie said it best... (Re: No shortage of suckers...)
Message:
Dear Rob - You might want to go back and read my post. If you access if, you can read it while you are answering it.
In it I said that I don't blame GMJ for anything. I don't think I ever did. I said that I was disappointed in the knowledge - that it didn't appear to do the things for me that it did for other people. For a long time (while I was a premie) I thought this was my fault. It was quite liberating to find out that there was a whole world out there that had never heard of GMJ or knowledge. I want to make sure that other premies who may be feeling bad know this too. This is why I participate in the ex-premie site. I don't feel bitter about it because I never gave up that much for GMJ - however I can understand why people who did give up a lot for GMJ DO feel bitter about the whole trip.
If you get a chance, read some of the ex-premies 'Journeys' entries. It might help you to understand where some of us are coming from.
Regards,
Katie
P.S. Just so you know, I did repost my original message above (under 'To Rob')
Hi Katie,
I'm going to quote from Annie here.
As a 'devotee' I always felt very much alone -- not lonely but alone, even in the midst of the community, or at festivals. I could never feel what other people seemed to be feeling -- and for a long time it puzzled me -- until I began to pay attention to what I WAS feeling, and learning, instead of what I wasn't feeling.
and when the quiet comes, I see
the treasure that I own
and when I look inside of me,
I see I'll never be alone
This speaks volumes for me because it says that it's a personal experience and must not be judged according to rhetoric or what other people tell me they experience. I personally have never 'seen' light the way almost everyone described it, but I definitely do see light.
Maybe this thing is only for optimists?
Rob
btw, I think I answered your original post, and I have read the journal stuff. I can't comment on people's experiences except to share mine, and that is what I've tried to do above. I think that to get ANYTHING out of ANYTHING in this life, you have to be positive and optimistic about what you're doing.
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Date: Wed, Dec 17, 1997 at 14:30:26 (EST)
Poster: Rob
Email:
To: Mr Ex
Subject: Re: No shortage of suckers...
Message:
I can also see that there are aspirants who keep falling in what I consider as a trap. It will be a nice place for some, it will be a bad experience for 90% of them, as it has been for these tens of thousands of westerners who got knowledge one day.
THAT IS WHY I decided to participate in the _ ex-premie.org _ web-site, and to say what I had to say.
I gave copies of the instructor s hand books I owned.
I told what (I know) happens behind the curtains of these nice meetings.
There is a lot more happening behind the curtains.
I just hope that others will dare to say what they have been involved in, so that new people can at least be warned.
Interesting.
I'm wondering if you are also complaining on the net about all the other daily "wastes" of your time. Like school, job, family, holidays, buying groceries, sleeping, etc. If you're like me, you've been dissappointed that all these were held out to be something they are not. Or did you take it in stride and make the best of it adn be the best person you could be in difficult circumstances?
I don't mean to disrepect your long (much longer than my) experience in the organization, but I'm genuinely interested to know why this is such a bug-bear for you and others.
Is there no possiblity that you just listened to the wrong message? I was in the Ashram back in '78 (when we had REAL winters -- not like the kids today!) and I didn't ever feel that giving up my ego to the light was something like turning off all my faculties. Am I naive?
Rob
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Date: Wed, Dec 17, 1997 at 15:07:25 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Rob
Subject: Re: Annie said it best... (Re: No shortage of suckers...)
Message:
Dear Rob - You may be right "that to get ANYTHING out of ANYTHING in this life, you have to be positive and optimistic about what you're doing."
I am a lot more positive and optimistic now that I was when I received knowledge. I attribute this to the fact that I have had a lot of therapy, and have learned to overcome some of my negative attitudes about myself - attitudes I learned while I was growing up. I WAS positive about practicing knowledge, or at least I thought I was, but I didn't feel good about myself at all. Are you saying that that is why I didn't experience much? I thought, stupidly as it now turns out, that receiving and practicing knowledge was supposed to help make me feel better about myself. From what you are saying, it seems like you should feel positive and optimistic BEFORE you get knowledge, or you won't get anything out of it. I can understand that - I've definitely known a lot of unhappy premies who weren't positive and optimistic before they got knowledge. But maybe us negative and pessimistic aspirants should have been informed of the fact that we weren't going to experience anything with knowledge.
If this seems sarcastic, it's because your post made me a bit angry. How was someone like me supposed to have a postive attitude about everything when I was a miserable sixteen year old girl? If I had felt that way, I probably wouldn't have been searching for anything in the first place.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 18, 1997 at 03:54:26 (EST)
Poster: op
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: No shortage of topics to write about (Re: No shortage of suckers...)
Message:
Dear JW:
You win. Here it is (off topic for this thread, but it seemed a relatively appropriate segment in which to place it). This is a part of the email I sent to JW about darshan:
M has included Westerners in darshan lines for those who could get to India all along. In 1996 he also had a darshan line in Australia (still far cry from the USA), after much begging from those who wished it.
The event in Australia this year was a private event, on private land. Whatever happened between M and the premies there should have been a private matter. I did say, and I still believe, that the darshan experience is misinterpreted in the West, and it is very unlikely that M will have a darshan line at any event meant for Westerners.
However, I'm not a soothsayer - and things might change, again.
As for Australia: M described completely what would happen in the darshan line. He cautioned people to be very honest with themselves and come only if they felt completely comfortable about it. He does not judge anyone by whether or not they show up for darshan.
He also said that people should not feel obliged to bring a gift.
Please remember that a lot of people have been waiting a very long time to have an opportunity to see him one on one - darshan gives that opportunity, if only for a fleeting moment. At that moment, his attention is for that one person, alone.
As for M as lord? I can't answer it. I can tell you that I have felt connected to him from the day I first met him, as though I had been waiting for that moment all my life. I can tell you that I have had incredible experiences that show me that he is connected to something completely beyond the everyday world. Things that happened before and after I received knowledge that were suddenly connected. Threads that continue throughout my life.
--
JW responded, among other things, that M could choose another way to do one on one. Remember that people do get a chance to ask their questions still at Knowledge sessions. And that this particular darshan event was in response to the many many requests he's received over the years.
The questions he receives from people are answered, by the way, when he speaks to the entire gathering. I know that you will say he avoids the negative ones, and that is a way of censoring what he doesn't want to deal with. But it is also a way of saving time - 90% of the questions are the same over and over again, so why not address them all at once? As for the negative side, in the past most have been designed only to disrupt, rather than being real questions of the heart. I HAVE seen M deal with serious questions, and several people who had not been around for years had private conversations with thim this past year.
As for M being otherwise unreachable - don't forget that he does live within a time/space continuum, and it's rather difficult to do all he does and spend a lot of individual time speaking to people also. The answer is, as always: the real Knower is within, the one who will answer the questions is within. M reminds us to look within and helps us find the connection to the real Knower. Or at least that's what he tries to do, for all those who want to make a serious commitment to his methods.
Enjoy the day!
p.s. - you got deity right, but you still spell 'relevant' wrong!
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Date: Thurs, Dec 18, 1997 at 13:18:21 (EST)
Poster: Rob
Email: vanderka@gis.nrcan.gc.ca
To: Katie
Subject: Re: Annie said it best... (Re: No shortage of suckers...)
Message:
Dear Rob - You may be right 'that to get ANYTHING out of ANYTHING in this life, you have to be positive and optimistic about what you're doing.'
I am a lot more positive and optimistic now that I was when I received knowledge. I attribute this to the fact that I have had a lot of therapy, and have learned to overcome some of my negative attitudes about myself - attitudes I learned while I was growing up. I WAS positive about practicing knowledge, or at least I thought I was, but I didn't feel good about myself at all. Are you saying that that is why I didn't experience much? I thought, stupidly as it now turns out, that receiving and practicing knowledge was supposed to help make me feel better about myself. From what you are saying, it seems like you should feel positive and optimistic BEFORE you get knowledge, or you won't get anything out of it. I can understand that - I've definitely known a lot of unhappy premies who weren't positive and optimistic before they got knowledge. But maybe us negative and pessimistic aspirants should have been informed of the fact that we weren't going to experience anything with knowledge.
If this seems sarcastic, it's because your post made me a bit angry. How was someone like me supposed to have a postive attitude about everything when I was a miserable sixteen year old girl? If I had felt that way, I probably wouldn't have been searching for anything in the first place.
No, I didn't get sarcasm from you at all, or anger. You sound very healthy, in my humble opinion, and you communicate well. I can also understand that things like what I said could make you angry.
I do hope you aren't angry at me personally though. You were in a tough situation then, and my words made you remember how unfair it all was, but I didn't intend to be insensitive. (If I was, I apologize.)
But to the point of this thread, I want to say that *my* experience was that I never thought GMJ and K were going to solve all my problems. In fact I recall being very clear that it was something, how can I say, 'outside' of the physical experience.
Yeah, that's it! My experience has been that knowing there is something beyond this physical existence made me 'free' from it, and freedom means being able to enjoy it. I still eat, sleep, work, play, etc., but now I'm not a prisoner of my perceptions, which I was growing up, since (I guess) nobody showed me how to look beyond it.
Also, I want you to know that even though I don't know you, I'm sorry that you had a rotten experience with K (if that's how you say it) and CONGRATULATE you on your successes since then. To me the important thing is that a person finds peace, and if GMJ didn't do it for you, for whatever reason, look elsewhere.
Regards,
Rob
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Date: Thurs, Dec 18, 1997 at 14:03:15 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email:
To: Rob
Subject: Re: Annie said it best... (Re: No shortage of suckers...)
Message:
Hi Rob - I WAS angry at you personally, but I feel better since you answered me. I feel like you actually read my post this time and replied to it, and I didn't get that feeling before.
Thanks,
Katie
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Date: Thurs, Dec 18, 1997 at 16:12:17 (EST)
Poster: Rob
Email:
To: Katie
Subject: Re: Annie said it best... (Re: No shortage of suckers...)
Message:
Hi Rob - I WAS angry at you personally, but I feel better since you answered me. I feel like you actually read my post this time and replied to it, and I didn't get that feeling before.
Thanks,
Katie
I had trouble finding your post last time when I found the time to respond to it. I'm getting better at keeping track of threads here, but I can't promise it won't happen again.
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Date: Fri, Dec 19, 1997 at 22:17:19 (EST)
Poster: the definition of human being
Email: bb
To: rob
Subject: means divine man being (Re: No shortage of suckers...)
Message:
if that is what you were after
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Date: Sun, Dec 14, 1997 at 10:18:31 (EST)
Poster: Another message
Email:
To: Everyone
Subject: from Seymour
Message:
[This message was posted by Seymour (Seymour_t@rocketmail com) on the alt.cult.maharaji newsgroup this morning (12/14)]
Many are Called
…but few are chosen. So the saying goes. Most contributors or perusers of this web site or forum have been ‘called’ to the path of knowledge but there are those of us, it seems, who could not quite make it work have decidedly not been chosen.
This could be quite disappointing - unless the destination chosen for us turned out to be somewhere that we would not like to end up, or even temporarily visit. If reaching this spiritual dimension means leaving behind family, friends, our reason, intellectual/academic pursuits, creative thinking, open minded, rational discussion and other valuable aspects of this rich
and varied life, then not being chosen could be seen as a lucky escape.
We might not achieve ‘satchitanand’, ‘nirvana’ or whatever but we can try to discover how to improve ourselves and how we behave towards each other.
Also, how can we be happy in our promised land knowing that there are billions of others, including our nearest and dearest, who are
wandering aimlessly around in a harsh world embarking on venture after venture that will lead them only towards more misery if they do not
have the ‘knowledge’ that will guide them along the true path.
I think it was at the end of the Mahabarata (if anyone can tell me I would be grateful) that there is a story about Arjuna, towards the end
of his life. He takes his dog for a walk and encounters Brahma, the supreme being in the form of some great spirit in the sky. After a bit
of a chat Brahma says "You have served me well in your life. Now it is time, if you wish, to enter Heaven and enjoy eternal bliss." Arjuna thinks about this and realises that most of his friends and family have either died or have their independent lives and no longer depend upon him -so it might be the time to shuffle of the old mortal coil and whoop it up in Heaven. However he does have his old dog that he has become attached to.
" Sorry, " says Brahma when asked "but no dogs allowed up here - leave him to be looked after by someone in your village."
Arjuna pleaded to no avail and ,feeling that his dog would be lonely without him and asked Brahma if he could delay going to Heaven until after his dog had died.
Brahma’s booming voice said "You risk upsetting the supreme being and jeopardising your own eternal future for the sake of an old dog?"
"I’m afraid so." replied Arjuna and turned back towards his village - probably fearing the wrath of God behind him. However , as his dog ran
ahead of him, he transformed into the true beatific form of Brahma and they all shot off to the land of eternal joy.
I might have a few of the details wrong but I think the gist is right. You don’t go letting your friends or even fellow creatures down. The
most devout religious zealot should still recognise the value of loyalty and friendship to those less ‘enlightened’ than himself.
Cheers
Seymour
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Date: Sun, Dec 14, 1997 at 12:36:27 (EST)
Poster: Sir David
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: Another message
Subject: Re: from Seymour
Message:
Personally, I think all this Eastern stuff about avatars, bliss, devotion, liberation etc to be a load of fairy stories and of no value. Each religion or school of thought or scripture just seems to be stabbing in the dark and way off what is really happening.
For a long time I thought Maharaji was Krishna and Bihari Singh was Arjuna. Huh, how deluded can one get? Eastern religions teach yoga, meditation and devotional yoga but I don't feel they're any more relevant than the middle eastern religions such as Christianity or Islam.
I feel this because I genuinely believe that we ALL go to God when we die, regardless of whether we were religious or meditated or not. I think that the idea that you have to achieve God realisation on Earth before you can go into the light upon dying is a falacy. It's a falacy that Eastern gurus play on.
I have studied extensively, near death experiences and from what I have gathered, everybody goes to the light or God when they die. People have said that they have seen a beatiful light and recognised it immediately as their home. All kinds of people have experienced this.
The question is, what can we do down here to make life more bearable? Whatever anyone does, I can respect, whether it be religion, yoga, meditation, therapy, good works, loving family life. I think LOVE is the key here. Love can make life worth living.
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Date: Sun, Dec 14, 1997 at 13:32:41 (EST)
Poster: Brian
Email: brian@worldnetoh.com
To: Sir David
Subject: Re: from Seymour
Message:
Well said, Sir David. What I got out of my experiences with DLM is that there is a core part of who I am in this world that continues beyond. That's all I really needed to know, and I'm certain that I could have had that experience without the toe-kissing/devotee crap that MJ flourishes on.
I've seen a lot of posts here recently that talk about teachers OTHER than MJ who people have found it useful to turn to. In my view, that's just substituting a different train of thought to play with while we're here. Not harmful, but of no greater value than having no particular belief at all. I prefer to be surprised when I die. It will either be a discovery, or a recollection.
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Date: Sun, Dec 14, 1997 at 14:53:32 (EST)
Poster: Bobby
Email:
To: anyone
Subject: another take on spirituality (Re: from Seymour)
Message:
Eastern (and Western too) spiritual teachings have great value for me. I draw a distinction between religion and spirit. Religion is like society and politics, empty and potentially harmful without the meaning behind it. I'm a spirtual man, not a religious one.
I had a powerful near-death experience followed by visions that lasted months. While in these visions I was in a total immersion experience. It was like dreaming 24 hours a day (or intensely tripping on LSD). I had no sense of body or ego. The images flooded my awareness.
For me, it has been vitally important to understand what I experienced. I have worked at this for most of my life, more than 28 years. I have found meaning in accounts and information in the works of Tibetan Masters, Jung, Houston, Campbell, Ram Dass, Grof, Shamanic accounts, Hindu teachings, Merton, and many other sources.
People have all kinds of opinions on this forum like everywhere else. There are those who think my spiritual experiences were nothing more than molecular disturbances. Some may think, how nice, he had a near death. Others may think I'm crazy or delusional. For me, my experiences are the most meaningful and profound events of my life.
Once again I feel obliged to reference my experience. I'm trying to communicate why I feel the way I do about some spiritual teachings. Once again I risk the anger or rudeness that have met me on previous attempts to communicate my experience and why things appear they way they do to me.
Frankly, its been fascinating to see all the different takes on Maharaji from premies and ex-premies. People went to Maharaji for their own reasons. My reasons are different than some others on this board.
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Date: Sun, Dec 14, 1997 at 15:07:29 (EST)
Poster: not
Email: bb
To: Brian
Subject: harmful? (Re: from Seymour)
Message:
not harmful?
dont be a catholic in the wrong neighborhood in ireland,
dont be a jew in iraq
dont be a christian in saudi arabia
dont be a sunni in a shiite area
dont be a hindu in parts of pakistan
or muslim in hindustan
or anybody in a sikh homeland
or vice versa for any of them
or a moonie at the airport
on and on
they are definately harmful and this all loving god
seems to love a good fight.
ask the dali lama about the great compassionate one versus
the track record of wars about god.
The chinese said recently there is no chance of them giving
tibet to the monks and that is that. That is a religious war, only no god versus lama god.
Why should all that stop?
Chris wants to 'check me out' in ny, that might just
be bad english, but its an odd choice of words.
I've used god as a shield 3 times in my life,
in ninth grade three kids wanted to beat me up because
of some unknown ninth grade puberty reason.
I said to the main one 'jesus said I should love my enemies
so I've got to at least try.'
he couldn't move. Don't ask me where that came from, I
was surprised too.
Then at work once a huge guy rushed over to crush me
and I just stayed with the breath with his enraged face 6 inches away eye to eye. He turned around. The other guys
were flaberghasted. that was in 78.
Exact same thing happened this year in 97. He was a real
drinker and maybe you know the type. Blind violent rages.
Actually there have been a lot of moments that things
that could only get worse got better and during those
moments I was feeling the life as well.
But that was no thanks to religions or beliefs.
I think anybody would be safe in a pentacostal gathering.
They are emotional towards god and they are my favorite
guys to work with. They aren't so great that I want to go to thier lengthy services every week, but living in a pentacostal neighborhood wouldn't be bad at all.
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Date: Sun, Dec 14, 1997 at 15:35:00 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Bill bburke
Subject: Re: harmful? (Re: from Seymour)
Message:
Dear Burke,
Obviously I don't know Chris any better than you do, but I don't think he's harmful. I don't think he meant anything by "check you out". (He probably wants to look in your storage bin is what I think.) He has never said anything threatening or even very hostile on the forum. (I think he called someone a dork once. Actually he said they were acting dorky. Or something like that.) I would personally like to meet him. (And you too, of course, and 90% of the other people who post on this site.)
I have problems answering your messages sometimes because I start to use your writing style. Hope you don't mind.
Katie
P.S. In regard to Pentacostals. My sister used to go to this Pentacostal church way back in the mountains in Virginia. The church services were on Saturday night. We never figured out if this was actually the holy day or if they just had the services then to try and keep people out of trouble. Some of the people who went to the church were very upright and religious, but some people were hell on wheels (literally) when they were not in church. Including one of the ministers, who eventually lost his job. I'm talking about drinking, crashing cars, high speed police chases, affairs, divorces, shotgun weddings, and so forth. So I'm not sure if I would want to live in a Pentacostal neighborhood.
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Date: Sun, Dec 14, 1997 at 16:27:00 (EST)
Poster: spirit-yes
Email: bb
To: Bobby
Subject: -uality? (Re: from Seymour)
Message:
JW said it best when he said if someone had taken enough of
an interest in him during his devotee years to step in and
say yeah but what about this and what about that, he might
taken a different track in those 10 years. He was talking about those that knew him like family and old friends.
Well, here we all are, and you can't exactly call us
strangers, nobody could talk me out of my beliefs about
maharaji, he had to do that all by himself.
Because I was bonded to my beliefs, well I guess that
you are bonded to some of your beliefs.
If I touch and poke one, I am pokeing you.
You said 'Once again I risk the anger or rudeness that have met me on previous attempts to communicate my experience
and why things appear the way they do to me'
Granted, this forum goes through waves of 'I'm ok,your ok'
smoochies, and it's sincere, but it doesn't enshrine
beliefs in a protective shield. This forum is highly
populated even though we all get some big hits in the
gut of our viewpoint.
You said 'Once again I feel obliged to reference my experience. I'm trying to communicate why I feel the way I
do about some spiritual teachings.'
Your not actually obliged, we accept you, and the
experiences you reference from are certainly valid and interesting, just try to feel ok with having 'spiritual
teachings' (that aren't even your own), poked and
scrutinized and left naked and writhing.
If these were the teachings of bobby, well, that would
be personal and it's possible no one would even touch
them. Because they are yours and you are a free human.
But, these are old, very old, not at all yours,
and they certainly have things to answer for.
I understand they are personal for you, but since I know
they are not yours', They are fair game to me.
personal beliefs, origional beliefs, are safe here,
public beliefs are public domain.
My wife has some black lady friends and they are very
hot on the black/white issue. Very hot.
But I'm sorry, if they say something that is off, to me,
I'm right there saying that ain't so.
Then they accuse me of being racist, my wife gets mad,
and when they are finally able to listen, and see what
I am saying, they will usually say ok. Not because I am
so right, but they don't hear other viewpoint's because
they only talk with those they talk with, and that is each
other, and they don't get anybody with another angle
very often. They talk so convinced, who would venture
a contrarian viewpoint anyway?
They do take it personal definately, during the discussion,
if you want to call it all a discussion. It's fireworks
then discussion. They see me as rush limbo or david duke
immediately after I say something contrary, they see me as
a slave owner or worse, it takes a while before the
idea is separated from the racist vision.
You may think I'm overstateing it but I'm not.
My wife is a little like edith bunker, 'oh,that's nice,'
or 'oh, thats terrible.'
Jim's idea about molecular disturbances was from being
a DNA enthusiest. From the world of dna/no god viewpoints,
that was a valid comment. That would be thier view.
I don't think he is there anymore, at least not 100%.
as close as every bit of your body, but not that
slice of awareness.
Or however he would put it now.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Sun, Dec 14, 1997 at 17:53:11 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Bobby and Bburke
Subject: Spiritual Experience (Re: from Seymour)
Message:
Katie said:
In my humble (?) opinion, there needs to be a distinction made here between actual spiritual experiences (such as Bobby's NDE) and spritual or religious beliefs that Bobby, and others, may have.
People on the forum have, in the past, said slighting things about Bobby's actual experiences (such as his NDE didn't really happen and so forth). I think this is weird because he is talking about something he actually experienced himself. He is not trying to push his experiences on anyone else or start a new religion. From what I've seen he is just trying to understand what happened to him so he can put his life in a context that makes sense and is liveable (don't want to put words in your mouth, Bobby, so please correct me if I'm wrong.)
However I think that Bobby's experiences and the spiritual traditions that he has used to help understand his experiences are two different things. Thus I don't feel Burke is attacking Bobby personally if he says "the Dalai Lama is an idiot". (Although if I were you, Bill, I would probably say "I THINK the Dalai Lama is an idiot". But I am probably more like Edith Bunker than you are.) In the time I have been posting on here, Burke has gone through an critical examination of about three quarters of the world's religions. He is bound to step on someone's toes at some point. But, I think it's important for Bill to do this, not to mention interesting for the rest of us, and I don't think he's deliberately trying to make fun of anyone's beliefs (correct me if I am wrong, Bill.)
Here's how I feel about the whole thing. I am extremely glad that I never had experiences like Bobby's NDE and aftermath. I had experiences that were a pale shadow of what he experienced and they were really scary. I think it's amazing that Bobby could go through those experiences and live a "normal" (sorry, but you know what I mean...) life today. I don't question that Bobby had those experiences, and I don't really care WHY or HOW he had those experiences. I think personal experiences are non-quantifiable. The closest everyday analogy that I have come up with is: why do you love your partner (wife, husband, significant other) - can you quantify that?
From what I understand, Bobby has used certain spiritual traditions to put his own personal experiences in context. Personally, I could not do this. After my experiences with Maharaji and DLM, I'm put off by any religion or spiritual tradition that puts one person above another person, or precribes that people "should do this" and "should not do that". Even Buddhism gets on my nerves at times - the five precepts and so forth. Obviously, there are things people should and should not do, but everytime "should" statements become part of a religious or spiritual belief, it seems that it creates more problems than it solves. People start doing the opposite (Jimmy Swaggart is a famous example), or kids do the opposite to rebel. But it really doesn't bother me if other people want to believe these things, as long as they don't try make me believe them too. (And, as I've said on here many times: I don't have a problem with premies following GMJ as long as they are really happy with what they are doing.) And I don't have a problem with Bobby using these traditions to try and make sense of what happened to him.
The final thing I have to say is that I would like it if people who feel like their beliefs are being insulted on this forum would speak up. I'm talking specifically about Bobby being angry about Bill saying that the Dalai Lama is an idiot. I mean that I wish Bobby would have said that that made him angy when it happened. Just my opinion.
P.S. I hope this isn't too kindler and gentler or Edith Bunker-like for you, Bill! (AND Bobby!) My maternal grandmother looked and acted exactly like Edith and her two big things were "if you can't say anything nice about someone, don't say anything at all" and "what will people think?". She was a very kind and lovable woman, but her life and mine would have been better if she had not believed those things.
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Date: Sun, Dec 14, 1997 at 22:21:37 (EST)
Poster: kathryn
Email: bb
To: Katie
Subject: Bunker (Re: from Seymour)
Message:
Who is the 10%?
I dont know what my writing style is or if I have one.
I meant Puerto Rican pentacostals.
Those born and raised there.
Actually I think I said the d. lama was a regular guy
but some of the things he said in his book
were idiotic.
Where is aarilee lately?
She didn't like anonomousie maybe.
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Date: Mon, Dec 15, 1997 at 02:52:45 (EST)
Poster: Frank
Email: Frank@SpankMe.Thanks
To: Brian
Subject: Re: from Seymour
Message:
I prefer to be surprised when I die. It will either be a discovery, or a recollection.
either that, or a surprise.
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Date: Mon, Dec 15, 1997 at 02:59:11 (EST)
Poster: Frank
Email: Frank@Frank's.hat
To: Bobby
Subject: Another Take Out Eat In Perspective (Re: from Seymour)
Message:
things appear they way they do to me.
well said.
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Date: Mon, Dec 15, 1997 at 02:59:14 (EST)
Poster: Frank
Email: Frank@Frank's.hat
To: Bobby
Subject: Another Take Out Eat In Perspective (Re: from Seymour)
Message:
things appear they way they do to me.
well said.
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Date: Mon, Dec 15, 1997 at 03:02:30 (EST)
Poster: Frank
Email: Frank@Frank'sFastFood.hat
To: Bobby
Subject: A 3rd Identical Take Out Eat In Perspective Slightly Different (Re: from Seymour)
Message:
things appear they way they do to me.
well said, even out of context.
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Date: Mon, Dec 15, 1997 at 16:19:39 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Bburke
Subject: to Bill from Edith B. (Re: from Seymour)
Message:
Who is the 10%?
I dont know what my writing style is or if I have one.
I meant Puerto Rican pentacostals.
Those born and raised there.
Actually I think I said the d. lama was a regular guy
but some of the things he said in his book
were idiotic.
Where is aarilee lately?
She didn't like anonomousie maybe.
Bill,
I will try and answer all your questions here:
1. The 10% is the people who post on here without identifying themselves in some way. Either a name or an e-mail address.
2. You have a definite writing style. It's very poetic. It is fun to read (my husband loves your posts). I think you could write a book, or at least a weekly column for the ex-premie site.
3. I got that you said that the dalai lama was an idiot from Bobby's post. Sorry you were misquoted.
4. I don't know where Annie is. She has a lot of other responsibilities so maybe she is busy. Drop her a line - I'm sure she'd like it.
I'm going to send you an e-mail soon, so check your e-mail every once in a while. Hope you get to meet CD. So far he has eluded op. You can tell us what he looks like, since he won't put a picture on his site.
Take care of you and yours,
Katie
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Date: Sat, Dec 13, 1997 at 10:54:02 (EST)
Poster: A Premie
Email:
To: Everyone
Subject: In Praise of Love
Message:
The Word is my friend who is with me all day. In times of trouble I turn to my friend and he's just a breath away. He fills me with nectar and all my troubles melt like snow in the spring sunshine. He fills me with love and he is so close to me.
I remember him with love because he's done so much for me. My friend the Word, my breath of love everlasting. I bow to the Lotus feet of my Lord inside. Pray that one day such gentle love will fill the world, his gentle compassion.
I bow my head to you who are love and I bow my head and prostrate with humility before your loyal and sincere devotee.
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Date: Sat, Dec 13, 1997 at 11:05:30 (EST)
Poster: Brian
Email: brian@worldnetoh.com
To: A Premie
Subject: Re: In Praise of Love
Message:
My Penis is my friend who is with me all day. In times of trouble I turn to my friend and he's just a touch away. He fills me with warmth and all my troubles melt like snow in the spring sunshine. He fills me with pleasure and he is so close to me.
I remember him with love because he's done so much for me. My friend the Penis, my sensation of love everlasting. I bow to the Lotus feet of my Sexuality inside. Pray that one day such gentle love will fill the world, his gentle compassion.
I bow my head to you who are love and I bow my head and prostrate with humility before your loyal and sincere devotee.
Now, I just wish I knew when my Penis was holding his next public progam...
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Date: Sat, Dec 13, 1997 at 11:52:04 (EST)
Poster: Bobby
Email:
To: Brian
Subject: Re: In Praise of Love
Message:
OK, we got it Brian.
Your penis is your everything.
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Date: Sat, Dec 13, 1997 at 11:54:53 (EST)
Poster: burkeoid
Email: bb
To: A Premie
Subject: In Praise of Love (Re: In Praise of Love)
Message:
excellent
it's kind of nice not to have to guess, hmm let's see, Jim?
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Date: Sat, Dec 13, 1997 at 12:04:33 (EST)
Poster: good point bri guy
Email: bb
To: Brian
Subject: Re: In Praise of Love
Message:
I guess your right, attitude is flexable and apparently
acceptable. we can have the orientation and results of that
depending on our own way, guess thats one reason for the free will option. but probably keeping close and slightly
respectful of the force is a safe route and perhaps
with the most benefits.
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Date: Sat, Dec 13, 1997 at 14:03:39 (EST)
Poster: Notapremie
Email:
To: burkeoid
Subject: Re: In Praise of Love
Message:
I wrote it but I didn't post it to the Forum. One of the three premies I emailed it to must have done.
Glad you thought it worthy of an airing here. The differences between the premies and ex-premies are only superficial. I think we all come from the same block.
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Date: Sat, Dec 13, 1997 at 14:20:46 (EST)
Poster: Bobby
Email:
To: Notapremie
Subject: Re: In Praise of Love
Message:
In my father's house are many mansions.
Yes we do come from the same block, but there are worlds upon worlds within.
We live in different rooms.
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Date: Sat, Dec 13, 1997 at 14:58:22 (EST)
Poster: Bobby
Email:
To: anybody
Subject: Re: In Praise of Love
Message:
By the way,
I never thought of Maharaji as the "architect" of the mansions and inner worlds or outer worlds. I never thought of him as the Lord of the Universe. What did that mean anyway?
I confess that I may have parroted some of this at one time, but only to a limited degree. I've always been interested in direct spiritual experience and have always been interested in all the forms that experience takes. I never considered Maharaji to be the sole authority. I don't consider this as making me any better than those of you who held Maharaji as the Lord. Only different.
I find the nature of Reality to be endlessly fascinating. I don't see any need for a single supreme architect or Lord. However, I do believe strongly in Wisdom beyond comprehension, peace that passes all understanding and profound Love.
I don't just believe this I know this. There is no argument that can touch this experience. Why should there be? Words fail.
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Date: Sat, Dec 13, 1997 at 15:03:28 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email:
To: Brian
Subject: Re: In Praise of Love
Message:
My Penis is my friend who is with me all day. In times of trouble I turn to my friend and he's just a touch away. He fills me with warmth and all my troubles melt like snow in the spring sunshine. He fills me with pleasure and he is so close to me.
I remember him with love because he's done so much for me. My friend the Penis, my sensation of love everlasting. I bow to the Lotus feet of my Sexuality inside. Pray that one day such gentle love will fill the world, his gentle compassion.
I bow my head to you who are love and I bow my head and prostrate with humility before your loyal and sincere devotee.
Now, I just wish I knew when my Penis was holding his next public progam...
So Brian, just how do you do pranam to your Penis?
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Date: Sat, Dec 13, 1997 at 16:02:09 (EST)
Poster: CD
Email:
To: Brian
Subject: Re: In Praise of Love
Message:
The Bobbitt story must have been an eye opener.
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Date: Sat, Dec 13, 1997 at 16:14:00 (EST)
Poster: CD
Email:
To: Bobby
Subject: Re: In Praise of Love
Message:
A new movie in the making: 'Lust of Brian'
People are free to give their ultimate devotion to whatever they wish.
For Brian it is his penis, for others money or the pursuit of rational answers, for some it is the power that is our life.
But beware of Brian's mom!
CD
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Date: Sat, Dec 13, 1997 at 16:22:20 (EST)
Poster: CD
Email:
To: Bobby
Subject: Re: In Praise of Love
Message:
I remember the fundamental emphasis being on each person having their own experience and drawing ultimate conclusions from that.
A lot of stuff was said but there was always that 'Words fail' backdrop.
It still is there today.
Regards,
CD
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Date: Sat, Dec 13, 1997 at 16:51:55 (EST)
Poster: Brian
Email: brian@worldnetoh.com
To: CD
Subject: Re: In Praise of Love
Message:
I meant this post to be satire. It bombed badly, to say the least. Sheeeeesh...
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Date: Sat, Dec 13, 1997 at 16:58:23 (EST)
Poster: CD
Email:
To: Brian
Subject: Re: In Praise of Love
Message:
I meant this post to be satire. It bombed badly, to say the least. Sheeeeesh...
Brian,
What's wrong?
I have never seen such a congenial post from you.
The original was a bit of a success not a bomb.
Happy holidays,
CD
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Date: Sat, Dec 13, 1997 at 20:18:15 (EST)
Poster: hello dolly, glad you found your
Email: bb
To: robert
Subject: toy's again. say no?, skin must go. (Re: In Praise of Love)
Message:
you do steadfastly parrot some things bobbo,
the dalia lama is the reincarnation of...(what you said
recently)
that is going way out on a limb and it's just not true.
I read the 14th dali lamas' book and he was a regular guy
who all but said it was fantasy.
The tibetans skinned one boy dead? alive? to free his spirit
when he didn't want the trip and wanted mom back.
Since he didn't want the job, he was killed.
And I'll bet it wasn't pretty. That fantasy of lama reincarnation has cost at least one life and unknown
amounts of decieved people. Thank you whoever dreampt that
up.
You said you don't see any need for a supreme architect,
or lord, or concious power?
I think the evidence shows the reality of just that.
Did you mean to write it like that?
I'm not on a mission to promote a certain perspective,
but as I look around for the clues the nature of this life
and it's ways, they are not out of reach. The evidence is all there and accessable.
In tibet, the lama had no bed because the idiots thought
he was always in the lotus. good grief, religion.
The boys skin is still available to view if you can get the chinese to take you to that room in the palace, the great holy home of the lamas.
People around me say 'oh, you can't understand god'
but now that I no longer look to maharaji to light the
way, I think more and more that it is not
'wisdom beyond comprehension' as you parroted, but
something that IS comprehensable and maybe that is just
again, your short comments that abridge what you are fully
trying or capable of saying.
I know your no dummy, I'm just wanting more fully expressed
viewpoints out of you. I'm not trying to put you on the
spot, excuse me but you know me and I'm big time into
god data processing. Part of the process is certainly
shredding truisms and religious things that are taken for
granted as true. I'm definately in prove it mode.
And for some reason I am regularly lately flooded with
various god related inputs. I don't get to mention them all.
I laughed when you said 'I never thought of him as the lord
of the universe, what did that mean anyway?'
You really stopped me with that one, Maybe JW or Brian
could step in and handle that one, I'm drawing a total
blank on that.
Hope this post is ok.
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Date: Sat, Dec 13, 1997 at 20:33:43 (EST)
Poster: not a premie?
Email: bb
To: Notapremie
Subject: oh yes you are. (Re: In Praise of Love)
Message:
I wrote it but I didn't post it to the Forum. One of the three premies I emailed it to must have done.
Glad you thought it worthy of an airing here. The differences between the premies and ex-premies are only superficial. I think we all come from the same block.
Are you david simpkiss?
That was my first guess.
Since premie means lover, I think you definately qualify.
But as brian pointed out in his own way, I guess
style is our own and probabaly it was the bowing down
that got the first reaction.
We have a sensitivity with bowing down at this point.
I can probably only muster a 'hiedi-ho neighbor!'
(that's from the home improvement tv show)
But really the expression of perspective on life that
you have is really top notch and I hearby appoint
you forum guru. (Since number 1 might not be you know who,
the slot is open)
Did you misspell breath? it came out block.
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Date: Sat, Dec 13, 1997 at 21:16:32 (EST)
Poster: Bobby
Email:
To: hello dolly, glad you found your
Subject: Re: toy's again. say no?, skin must go. (Re: In Praise of Love)
Message:
you do steadfastly parrot some things bobbo,
What do you consider me parroting here Bill?
the dalia lama is the reincarnation of...(what you said
recently)
that is going way out on a limb and it's just not true.
Why do you say this Bill?
You consistently insist that certain teachings are "idiotic". I'm sorry, I don't agree with you. I don't agree with you at all. To me, they often make more sense then western modalities. I don't feel like answering you when you insult what I hold as likely or tenable.
The fact is, the dalai lama is considered the incarnation of Avalokiteshvara. In some sense, that may be true. I didn't say it was absolutely true. I said that's what the teaching says.
What are you talking about the "tibetans skinned one boy dead"?
Hope this post is ok.
Not really. You insinuate certain modalities that I don't have time to answer. Some of your remarks seem insulting. You are in a different place than me Bill.
My statement that "I don't see the need for supreme architect" stands. I'm not into "prove it" mode. I spend a lot of time thinking things through, and considering. Bill, I have a problem with your assumptions about me and what I believe. Maybe I'm not putting enough time into explanations for you. I'll try to do better, but the fact is, that I don't often answer your posts because of your remarks like the dalai lama is an idiot. You made remark a week or two ago.
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Date: Sat, Dec 13, 1997 at 22:04:09 (EST)
Poster: Sir David
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: BB
Subject: Re: oh yes you are. (Re: In Praise of Love)
Message:
Yes it was me who wrote that piece of prose. I originally emailed it to a few ex-premies without the prostrating bit and then I emailed it to three premies and added the prostrating bit.
I was talking about humbly prostrating to a devotee of God. Now that's not like bowing down to a person because I'm bowing down or prostrating to the love and devotion in that person. It's like I am praising love. OK one of the premies wrote back and said hey steady on David, I'm only an ordinary guy but he missed my point, the prostrations are for the love of God or love of love in that person.
I'm not a premie because I'm not a follower of Maharaji and haven't been since the early eighties. I wouldn't call myself a yogi or someone who is trying to realise God, far from it. My experience has been that God loves me and everybody else and I praise and value such a thing.
You know I have this bizarre picture in my mind after reading some of the posts today and that is house with many rooms. In one room is Maharaji sitting doing all four techniques together with only two arms (unlike Krishna who had four?) and in the other room is Brian doing pranam to his penis. Sorry.
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Date: Sun, Dec 14, 1997 at 04:20:00 (EST)
Poster: Shown in a free light,
Email: bb
To: Bobby
Subject: they insult themselves (Re: In Praise of Love)
Message:
you do steadfastly parrot some things bobbo,
What do you consider me parroting here Bill?
the dalia lama is the reincarnation of...(what you said
recently)
that is going way out on a limb and it's just not true.
Why do you say this Bill?
You consistently insist that certain teachings are 'idiotic'. I'm sorry, I don't agree with you. I don't agree with you at all. To me, they often make more sense then western modalities. I don't feel like answering you when you insult what I hold as likely or tenable.
The fact is, the dalai lama is considered the incarnation of Avalokiteshvara. In some sense, that may be true. I didn't say it was absolutely true. I said that's what the teaching says.
What are you talking about the 'tibetans skinned one boy dead'?
Hope this post is ok.
Not really. You insinuate certain modalities that I don't have time to answer. Some of your remarks seem insulting. You are in a different place than me Bill.
My statement that 'I don't see the need for supreme architect' stands. I'm not into 'prove it' mode. I spend a lot of time thinking things through, and considering. Bill, I have a problem with your assumptions about me and what I believe. Maybe I'm not putting enough time into explanations for you. I'll try to do better, but the fact is, that I don't often answer your posts because of your remarks like the dalai lama is an idiot. You made remark a week or two ago.
I have an old premie friend since 74 and we call him bobbo.
His name is bobby too. I didn't give him that nickname
but I always think of it when I see your name.
You had mentioned the word parrot in your first post up
above. You had said you probably parroted some things when you with maharaji but not anymore. So the word was not used
by me in a bad way, but just in reference to saying
things that someone told you that you accepted and
repeated. So I figured that maybe two things in your
post fit that catagory.
I regret the use of the word fantasy or idiotic.
But I did read the present dali lama's book also and
some of the ideas and beliefs are as far out there
as allahtolla kohmenis'. The rules and beliefs that
komenie says in his guide to living, are down right,
well, the I... word comes to mind again.
If I had the 2 books still I would post some parts.
I'll try to get them again.
You said you find it 'likely or tenable', and then you
said 'the fact is, the lama is considered the incarnation
of A... In some sense that may be true. I didn't say it was absolutly true'
My first reaction would be 'Avalokiteshvara', what makes
anybody think he is worth claiming to be the reincarnation
of? Why can't the next tibetian stand on his own merit
and warrent respect only for his own hard earned logics
and realisations. And not grant him some divine status
right out of the starting gate just because he picked some
toys the last dali lama used to play with when he was alive.
In case someone doesn't know, to find the next dali lama,
they go around with a basket of things and sometimes toys,
and different kids pick things out. If you pick the
wrong thing, you are out of luck, you are the dali lama.
You leave your family and forgit about having a girlfriend.
Forget about playing with your friends, forget about
having children, forget about your dad's birthday party
next week. Or your's. You are now god. Or, whoever the
hell Avalokiteshvara was.
Surely you understand why I loath the lama succesion trip.
I'll have to investigate what the Inca's used to believe,
I'll bet they were 'likely or tenable', but they also
used to cut out the heart of living people for the
benefit of god.
I certainly understand the impulse to want to be something
you aren't, people are regularly doing that,
taken to the wacky extreme, you can also claim 'Hey!,
I used to be someone who was REALLY better and more
realised than the rest of you.' Of course it adds to
the prestige of the religion if thier leader is somehow
otherworldly and someone more than just anybody else.
Why do you think maharaji is so bad?
If I was him, born in india and close to tibet, and
seeing all the fuss people make over the pope in person,
and the queen for that matter, ...I just erased some things
so I don't make some 'more civilized' enemies.
But her family used to say the king was chosen by god,
divine right, and all that, and for centuries people
would say,'the fact is, the king is considered the agent
of god.' And I would be expected to not call that logic
names.
So maharaji sees many indian people saying they are more,
the dali lama is somehow ok in your eyes even though
I'll bet to many people Avalokiteshvra is lord of the universe, he MUST be if no one else gets to incarnate
themselves as the dali lama. He is the big guy, he gets dibs
on the job, he gets mentioned all over the place, he must
be top dog of the other world. lord. of the universe.
I guess you don't know the story and so I will elaborate,
One time, a boy picked the wrong toys, he became dali lama,
He wanted to go home and that was that. Probably some
fiesty independent minded type like Brian, or the rest of us. So, big dilemma for the whole belief thing about
this leader is Avalokiteshvara. To protect the dogma,
(which is supremely important) the boy had to die.
And to make sure Avalokiteshvara could get out of the boy,
they skinned him. Hopefully not alive. But the track record of dogmatic religious types is not pretty and we can't
assume they killed him first. We can just hope so.
But either way, they killed him.
His skin remains as a warning to all future rebellious
teenage lords in form.
I have no idea what a modality is, I am not insulting
you bobby, I might bow or respect those who love love
as Sir guru david said, but religions and beliefs
are murderous and clamor for my approval, and I point out
any flaws I see for my own safety. I disapprove, but
the insulting is not something I need to do, shown in
a free light, they insult themselves.
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Date: Sun, Dec 14, 1997 at 05:04:16 (EST)
Poster: white
Email: bb
To: Sir David
Subject: room (Re: In Praise of Love)
Message:
Oh, I neglected to say HOW you do all four with out
having krishnas four arms, which was a funny comment by the way, you put your thumbs in your ears and little finger
across your eye.
As far as bri guy doing pranam, here is one I heard.
'why does a dog lick it's balls?
because it can.'
When evolution finishes up I am sure those kind of capabilities would be human requested add ons.
I'll bet the dali lama does that kind of pranam.
holy schmoly, no one is above things.
Religions would have us tied in knots if we would only
give it the proper respect.
God wants the women dressed head to toe in the shroud
like in iran. So my private parts won't get triggered.
christ, who needs another human or any living thing to
trigger that?
Brian is right, people are more ruled by that little
area then anything. Although the tongue and eating comes a close second.
After those fulfillments, THEN maybe we have the focus of
mind to look for other fulfillments like say feeling
content and right with the life. I almost said right with
the world, hmm, I don't know if we are supposed to be
wanting to be all right with the whole arena of human
behavior and expression. Safe in spite of it,maybe,
understanding it, finding what interests us, walking with
the groove in hand, looking past the limits of others,
and having fun. And getting good at triggering the best
side of people around us. And bewareing of the differences
that blind us to the unity that binds us.
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Date: Sun, Dec 14, 1997 at 09:39:09 (EST)
Poster: Alan
Email: sagacious@bigfoot
To: Maharaji and followers
Subject: Re: In Praise of Love
Message:
The Word is my friend who is with me all day. In times of trouble I turn to my friend and he's just a breath away. He fills me with nectar and all my troubles melt like snow in the spring sunshine. He fills me with love and he is so close to me.
I remember him with love because he's done so much for me. My friend the Word, my breath of love everlasting. I bow to the Lotus feet of my Lord inside. Pray that one day such gentle love will fill the world, his gentle compassion.
I bow my head to you who are love and I bow my head and prostrate with humility before your loyal and sincere devotee.
Hello followers of Maharaji,
My name is Alan and I host a radio programme in Norfolk.
I would very much like to interview your Guru as I know many
of my listeners often feel depressed and could do with cheering up. My show goes out at 4.00 a.m. when many of the insomniacs, and those who are less than comfortable with their lives are awake - trying to make some sense of it all.
I play uplifting middle of the road music such as Abba, Spice Girls, the Osmonds(one of my favourite bands of yesteryear),
Acker Bilk and Demis Roussos . My choice of music and the phone-ins attract many a sensitive soul - many of whom would benefit from a question and answer session with Your Holiness Maharaji. I am sure there would not be any cynics you sometimes get on this forum and we would all be interested in hearing more about the advantages of being part of your happy band.
If you would like to increase your already considerable fame to the far reaches of Norfolk and surrounds write or e-mail and we will schedule a slot in no time.
Your servant
Alan Partridge
Radio Norfolk
Norwich
Norfolk
England.
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Date: Sun, Dec 14, 1997 at 13:53:50 (EST)
Poster: David Simpkiss
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: Alan
Subject: Re: In Praise of Love
Message:
Hi there Alan. Yes I've heard you on the radio a few times when I picked up the signal from London! And I've heard you on other radio stations. You'd find it very hard to get Maharaji to do an interview because he'd pretty innacessable. Most of us here are ex followers of Maharaji and are just reflecting on our experiences and keeping up with what Maharaji's up to.
I think you're doing a great job and people like you on the radio are a real benefit to depressed or isolated people in the community.
If there are any current followers of Maharaji who read your message and think they can get him to do an interview on your radio station, I'm sure they will contact you. Meanwhile, if I can think of something that will be of a benefit to your listeners, I'll let you know.
All the best, David.
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Date: Sun, Dec 14, 1997 at 14:17:52 (EST)
Poster: jhgghf
Email: bb
To: Alan
Subject: Re: In Praise of Love
Message:
what a hoot,
here is an opportunty for satire brian.
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Date: Sun, Dec 14, 1997 at 19:40:04 (EST)
Poster: Brian
Email: brian@worldnetoh.com
To: jhgghf
Subject: Re: In Praise of Love
Message:
what a hoot,
here is an opportunty for satire brian.
I was sorely tempted. But, somehow I feel that my contributions of satire to this thread just can't die fast enough for me. DOH!!!
However, it would have started out:
"That was Jimmy Osmond's classic rendition of Go Away Little Girl. Speaking of moldy oldies, our guest here today..."
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