Forum II: Archive 2 Page 1 of 5

Date: Tues, Dec 30, 1997 at 15:37:45 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: Bobby
Subject: Re: Are we missing the Purpose of this?
Message:
At various times people have spoken of their desire to have a 'safe space' for expression. I would love for this to happen with this forum, but it ain't gonna. Lots of people have come and then gone when they witnessed the really unsafe levels of communication. I think its a shame. I admit, I am a sensitive man. I value sensitivity and consider it a gift. Sensitive people often get hurt, but I believe there is a way to maintain sensitivity without being wounded or wounding others. I have worked for years in an attempt to achieve sensitivity with presence and strength but obviously have not reached this state yet. I'm surprised with how angry I get here with Jim Heller. He really pisses me off. He should stay away from my posts, just as I generally stay away from his, unless I'm attacked. Bobby, I enjoy talking with you! I just wish we could do it rationally, that's all. At times I've questioned stuff you've said and, well you have to admit, you don't take to questioning too well now do you? Like, when push comes to shove and you might have to admit that you're pressing the up and down buttons at the same time, you get a little bristly. Know that about yourself? Do you? You should. Our only difficulty, as far as I know, has been that I challenge you to pick one button or the other, not both. Your answer has been either a) you're not pressing two inconsistent buttons; b) your world isn't bothered by inconsistency but instead embraces contradiction as a mythic transcendent of the supercalifragilistic; c) I didn't understand you the first time but, because of the way I've questioned you I've spoiled everything and there's no way you're going to explain things now; or d) fuck off. Beside not reading your posts, what else might you suggest I do to enable us to communicate? Talk softly and question you not? Talk softly and wuestion you but keep talking softly and don't get frustrated if you answer me not? Hmm?
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Date: Mon, Dec 29, 1997 at 17:42:16 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: Everyone
Subject: The Songs
Message:
Mr. Prem Pal Singh Rawat has just issued a CD of songs that the premies sing to him at programs. It was apparently sold at his birthday bash in Long Beach a few weeks ago. I got my hands on a copy of the lyrics to these songs. If anyone has any doubt that what Maharaji is running is a devotional, personality cult, please look at the following lyrics from a couple of those songs: One sone is called "Golden Way." If memory serves me correctly, this song was on the original Lord of the Universe album in 1972 or 1973, that came out even before the Blue Aquarius album in 1973. That song goes, in part: You call to us Maharaji Like the flower calls to the bee And we rush to you Maharaji Like the rivers rush to the sea (CHORUS) And though we'll try everyday To walk your golden way Only by your grace, by your mercy Can we approach you You're the only one dear master You're the one that we need Draw the veil away true lover (yech!) Bring your love close to me (double yech!) Your love is all Maharaji We've only longing to give And now we weep for joy Maharaji With a deeper reason to live When we see you smile Maharaji Confusion's so far away Let us sing your praise forever And make you smile every day (gag and barf!) In case there is any doubt about M's views of all this, the following song was apparently written by "P.Rawat and K.O'leary." I assume Mr. Rawat is the one and only lord himself and this song therefore reflects how he thinks he should be sung to. Anyhow, this song is called "Magic of Love" and goes, in part (it is highly repetitive, as you can see, so I tried to avoid the most repetitive parts): Seldom have I felt like this Eyes full of tears, a heart full of bliss Never again, I know Will you be so near Never again, I know Will you call so clear Never again, I know Will you be so dear (no comment!) Never again, I know Will I travel these roads Never again, I know Will I be so close Take my hand, take my heart, take my love You are my magic of love, You are my blue sky above You are my sun in the sky, You are my feeling of joy You are my reason and rhyme, You are my season in time You are my endless smile, You are my final mile (ouch) You are my endless dream, You are my shining beam [Sorry, it only gets worse ... can't continue so soon after lunch.] Well kids, there are lots more songs where these came from. So much for this not being a personality cult, right? JW
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Date: Mon, Dec 29, 1997 at 17:51:34 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: The Songs
Message:
If you're going to call this a personality cult you're going to have to call North Korea one too! Come on, JW, get real.
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Date: Mon, Dec 29, 1997 at 20:16:07 (EST)
Poster: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net
To: JW
Subject: Re: The Songs
Message:
Mr. Prem Pal Singh Rawat has just issued a CD of songs that the premies sing to him at programs. It was apparently sold at his birthday bash in Long Beach a few weeks ago. I got my hands on a copy of the lyrics to these songs. If anyone has any doubt that what Maharaji is running is a devotional, personality cult, please look at the following lyrics from a couple of those songs: One sone is called 'Golden Way.' If memory serves me correctly, this song was on the original Lord of the Universe album in 1972 or 1973, that came out even before the Blue Aquarius album in 1973. That song goes, in part: You call to us Maharaji Like the flower calls to the bee And we rush to you Maharaji Like the rivers rush to the sea (CHORUS) And though we'll try everyday To walk your golden way Only by your grace, by your mercy Can we approach you You're the only one dear master You're the one that we need Draw the veil away true lover (yech!) Bring your love close to me (double yech!) Your love is all Maharaji We've only longing to give And now we weep for joy Maharaji With a deeper reason to live When we see you smile Maharaji Confusion's so far away Let us sing your praise forever And make you smile every day (gag and barf!) In case there is any doubt about M's views of all this, the following song was apparently written by 'P.Rawat and K.O'leary.' I assume Mr. Rawat is the one and only lord himself and this song therefore reflects how he thinks he should be sung to. Anyhow, this song is called 'Magic of Love' and goes, in part (it is highly repetitive, as you can see, so I tried to avoid the most repetitive parts): Seldom have I felt like this Eyes full of tears, a heart full of bliss Never again, I know Will you be so near Never again, I know Will you call so clear Never again, I know Will you be so dear (no comment!) Never again, I know Will I travel these roads Never again, I know Will I be so close Take my hand, take my heart, take my love You are my magic of love, You are my blue sky above You are my sun in the sky, You are my feeling of joy You are my reason and rhyme, You are my season in time You are my endless smile, You are my final mile (ouch) You are my endless dream, You are my shining beam [Sorry, it only gets worse ... can't continue so soon after lunch.] Well kids, there are lots more songs where these came from. So much for this not being a personality cult, right? JW Hey Joe, You're right, that horrible song IS on the Apostle's "Lord of the Universe" album ( I hate to admit it, but I still have that, AND "The Living Word" by Blue Aquarius, AND two Jiva records, but I NEVER listen to them, I just have this thing about vinyl); I checked my copy. As I stated weeks ago, you guys have got to stop bringing up this terrible Premie music; I've been safe for years, and then I'll read some post and I've got "arti" or worse playing in my head. THIS BRAINWASHING NEVER REALLY GOES AWAY!!! ARRRGGGHHH!!!! Regards, Michael
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Date: Mon, Dec 29, 1997 at 20:27:41 (EST)
Poster: jim
Email:
To: Mickey the Pharisee
Subject: Re: The Songs
Message:
Michael, if you sent me those first two albums I'd try to put some sort of rap thing on a few choice numbers. Wouldn't that be fun? Let me know. Thanks, Jim
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Date: Mon, Dec 29, 1997 at 20:44:31 (EST)
Poster: P Fenrond
Email:
To: Jim
Subject: Re: The Songs
Message:
If you're going to call this a personality cult you're going to have to call North Korea one too! Come on, JW, get real. Yes,jim is right.Maharaji is not a cult.This website seems more like a cult.It has favored participants,cliques,and everything. The beautiful loving Maharaji still loves you even when you've stopped loving him.Let it be known that you can find peace in your life without his grace,but he can make it much easier for you still. You all seem to appreciate this website and that's good,but don't forget what is important is to be found inside,not on the internet. Enjoy yourselves and remember the words of jim when he says that Maharaji is not a personality cult.He is right,it's not.But this website may be. Peace to all
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Date: Mon, Dec 29, 1997 at 21:32:30 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: P Fenrond
Subject: Re: The Songs
Message:
If you're going to call this a personality cult you're going to have to call North Korea one too! Come on, JW, get real. Yes,jim is right.Maharaji is not a cult.This website seems more like a cult.It has favored participants,cliques,and everything. The beautiful loving Maharaji still loves you even when you've stopped loving him.Let it be known that you can find peace in your life without his grace,but he can make it much easier for you still. You all seem to appreciate this website and that's good,but don't forget what is important is to be found inside,not on the internet. Enjoy yourselves and remember the words of jim when he says that Maharaji is not a personality cult.He is right,it's not.But this website may be. Peace to all I just HAVE to ask - if you think that this website/forum is a personality cult - then who is the personality? Maharaji? Personally, I can't see anyone else around here in the role. P.S. "Enjoy yourselves and remember the words of Jim"?
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Date: Mon, Dec 29, 1997 at 21:59:50 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: P Fenrond
Subject: Re: The Songs
Message:
Holy shit! What's going on here? Mr., Ms., or Eunuch Fenrond, I was only kidding. m loves me as much as the bacteria in my bathroom. I, on the other hand, still feel the occasional wind of grace messing with my hair.
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Date: Mon, Dec 29, 1997 at 22:06:42 (EST)
Poster: John K.
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: The Songs
Message:
Is nothing sacred!? Your actually criticizing the "Lord of the Universe" album? I believe we have finally gone to far. I am afraid I have to break off from the group at this point and ride on alone, off into the sunset, whistling songs like 'satguru I'm calling you" and 'oh hand me down my walking cane'. There were some monster hits on that album, and I won't stand to have a word said agin em. AND "In case there is any doubt about M's views of all this, the following song was apparently written by 'P.Rawat and K.O'leary.'" Couldn't the P stand for Premlata?
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Date: Mon, Dec 29, 1997 at 22:36:17 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: John K.
Subject: Re: The Songs
Message:
'In case there is any doubt about M's views of all this, the following song was apparently written by 'P.Rawat and K.O'leary.'' Couldn't the P stand for Premlata? I don't think so. I think Premlata goes by "Wadi Sue." Also, the album jacket refers to "P. Rawat" as also doing the the mixing on a song called "He's Here" (remember THAT one?) and "P. Rawat" is also referred to as "Prem Rawat." Isn't that our guy? JW
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Date: Mon, Dec 29, 1997 at 23:11:55 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Katie
Subject: Re: The Songs
Message:
If you're going to call this a personality cult you're going to have to call North Korea one too! Come on, JW, get real. Yes,jim is right.Maharaji is not a cult.This website seems more like a cult.It has favored participants,cliques,and everything. The beautiful loving Maharaji still loves you even when you've stopped loving him.Let it be known that you can find peace in your life without his grace,but he can make it much easier for you still. You all seem to appreciate this website and that's good,but don't forget what is important is to be found inside,not on the internet. Enjoy yourselves and remember the words of jim when he says that Maharaji is not a personality cult.He is right,it's not.But this website may be. Peace to all I just HAVE to ask - if you think that this website/forum is a personality cult - then who is the personality? Maharaji? Personally, I can't see anyone else around here in the role. Yeah, this website is a hate-cult focused on Maharaji's personality. His family, friends and disciples are also targeted by slander, distortion and misrepresentation.
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Date: Tues, Dec 30, 1997 at 02:01:17 (EST)
Poster: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net
To: jim
Subject: Re: The Songs
Message:
Michael, if you sent me those first two albums I'd try to put some sort of rap thing on a few choice numbers. Wouldn't that be fun? Let me know. Thanks, Jim Well, Jim, maybe we can do some sort of rap-jam sample kinda thing. Do you remember the album "My Life in the Bush of Ghosts" by Brian Eno and David Byrne? They did a thing with found vocals; maybe we could do it with those two albums and some old satsang tapes. I still have some stuff from a festival in Toronto in the '70's. I think it would be a lot of fun. Maybe we could perform at that Ex-premie Festival which was mentioned waaay down on the message list!
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Date: Tues, Dec 30, 1997 at 15:41:35 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email: heller@islandnet.com
To: Mickey the Pharisee
Subject: Re: The Songs
Message:
Michael, if you sent me those first two albums I'd try to put some sort of rap thing on a few choice numbers. Wouldn't that be fun? Let me know. Thanks, Jim Well, Jim, maybe we can do some sort of rap-jam sample kinda thing. Do you remember the album 'My Life in the Bush of Ghosts' by Brian Eno and David Byrne? They did a thing with found vocals; maybe we could do it with those two albums and some old satsang tapes. I still have some stuff from a festival in Toronto in the '70's. I think it would be a lot of fun. Maybe we could perform at that Ex-premie Festival which was mentioned waaay down on the message list! Yes that sounds better than finger painting. Seriously. Email me when you want to do it.
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Date: Mon, Dec 29, 1997 at 17:09:07 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email: joger02@aol.com
To: Everyone
Subject: The Tons of Rotten Vegetables
Message:
Mili has been gracious enough on a thread below to provide us with yet another quote by Guru Maharaj Ji. In that quote, Guru Maharaj Ji states that if you don't practice knowledge, the knowledge "will get rotten and it will harm you." Others have mentioned on this forum that Maharaji said that if you didn't practice knowledge that some "tons or rotten vegetables will rot inside you," or something to that effect. I'm sure he said similar things many times, but that particular image has stuck apparently with all of us. My question here is how can Maharaji be saying that it's perfectly okay if you don't like knowledge and don't want to practice it, in this sort of easy-come-easy-go fashion that encourages people to get involved with him because you can always just walk away from it, no problem, when hs is also making these statements, that could almost be considered threats? JW
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Date: Mon, Dec 29, 1997 at 20:13:36 (EST)
Poster: Sir David
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: JW
Subject: Re: The Tons of Rotten Vegetables
Message:
You've raised some very interesting points about this Joe. Maharaji has used threats all along ever since he first came to the West. I was conned into joining the ashram in the seventies. After a few months I wanted to leave but I was continually hearing satsang from M about the dire consequences of leaving. I was a naive twenty year old so I stayed out of fear. When I did eventually leave after two years I was quite surprised that there were no dire consequences of my action. Consider the threats he has given about not practising K. Now he even said that we would be reborn as animals if we failed to practise. Read the Mechanics of Liberation satsang he gave in India (it's in an old Divine Light). I also remember clearly a program in Leicester, England wher a premie shouted out at M, "I want to give this Knowledge back to you, I don't want it!" Maharaji answered back, "Then you'll need four strong men" meaning he'd need four men to carry his coffin since he would die if he tried to give the K back. OK this is most unpleasant but indicative of a cult ruled by fear. To use an American term, Maharaji is one low down son of a bitch to have stooped to trying to frighten people into staying with his cult. What is knowledge? Did M give us knowledge? No. Four Raj yoga techniques were shown. Does M control someone's experience in meditation? No. It is simply a natural experience that the person has of their own consciousness. What happens if someone doesn't meditate? Nothing happens. But M wants people to fear and he wants, in his clumsy and irresponsible way to but the fear of God into people. They're just four fucking meditation techniques, that's all. All this crap he has laid on people is evil. Yes evil Mili and in your lack of experience of the heavy trips M has laid on people I would consider that it is not your place to comment upon something you know nothing about. SOme people have had nervous breakdowns and even committed suicide because of the evil and insidious things that M has layed on people. I for one will not let such things be forgotten.
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Date: Mon, Dec 29, 1997 at 22:56:10 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Sir David
Subject: Re: The Tons of Rotten Vegetables
Message:
...I also remember clearly a program in Leicester, England wher a premie shouted out at M, 'I want to give this Knowledge back to you, I don't want it!' Maharaji answered back, 'Then you'll need four strong men' meaning he'd need four men to carry his coffin since he would die if he tried to give the K back. OK this is most unpleasant but indicative of a cult ruled by fear. To use an American term, Maharaji is one low down son of a bitch to have stooped to trying to frighten people into staying with his cult. What is knowledge? Did M give us knowledge? No. Four Raj yoga techniques were shown. Does M control someone's experience in meditation? No. It is simply a natural experience that the person has of their own consciousness. What happens if someone doesn't meditate? Nothing happens. But M wants people to fear and he wants, in his clumsy and irresponsible way to but the fear of God into people. They're just four fucking meditation techniques, that's all. All this crap he has laid on people is evil. Yes evil Mili and in your lack of experience of the heavy trips M has laid on people I would consider that it is not your place to comment upon something you know nothing about. You are mistaken. That was not a threat. What he meant was that Knowledge is the energy that is keeping you alive, and if it were taken from you, you would be dead! That's all he meant - not a threat. This is just an example of how people can misunderstand this thing. What really gets me is that you KNOW that's what he really meant (you are not a stupid person), but you are distorting this on purpose. Why? God only knows.
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Date: Tues, Dec 30, 1997 at 01:16:27 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: Mili
Subject: Re: The Tons of Rotten Vegetables
Message:
You are mistaken. That was not a threat. What he meant was that Knowledge is the energy that is keeping you alive, and if it were taken from you, you would be dead! That's all he meant - not a threat. Yeah right Mili, if you can twist this, you can twist anything. The actual quote, which YOU posted was that if you didn't practice knowledge it would become rotten and harm you> That's what the quote said. M said NOTHING about knowledge being taken from anyone or being dead. He said you would be HARMED. It most certainly was a threat of what would happen if you didn't practice knowlege. AND btw -- in that same post where you called me names you admitted that that is what he meant. JW
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Date: Tues, Dec 30, 1997 at 01:22:37 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: JW
Subject: Re: The Tons of Rotten Vegetables
Message:
You are mistaken. That was not a threat. What he meant was that Knowledge is the energy that is keeping you alive, and if it were taken from you, you would be dead! That's all he meant - not a threat. Yeah right Mili, if you can twist this, you can twist anything. The actual quote, which YOU posted was that if you didn't practice knowledge it would become rotten and harm you> That's what the quote said. M said NOTHING about knowledge being taken from anyone or being dead. He said you would be HARMED. It most certainly was a threat of what would happen if you didn't practice knowlege. AND btw -- in that same post where you called me names you admitted that that is what he meant. JW Don't lay that sophistry on me JW. You are not good at it. You still have much to learn about it from Jim. I clearly said that I didn't think it was a scare, a threat, but just some practical advice on how this thing works. What do YOU know about it? The Knowledge is not a thing to dabble with. It is quite reasonable to say that if you don't intend to seriously pursue it, then it is better not to get involved at all.
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Date: Tues, Dec 30, 1997 at 01:27:04 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: Mili
Subject: Re: The Tons of Rotten Vegetables
Message:
Don't lay that sophistry on me JW. You are not good at it. You still have much to learn about it from Jim. I clearly said that I didn't think it was a scare, a threat, but just some practical advice on how this thing works. What do YOU know about it? I know what he said, which you apparently alter to fit your current argument. He said if you don't practice knowledge knowledge will rot and you will be harmed. That's what he said. That can be categorized as a threat or not, but the effect on someone considering leaving the practice is the same.
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Date: Tues, Dec 30, 1997 at 02:11:53 (EST)
Poster: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net
To: Mili
Subject: Re: The Tons of Rotten Vegetables
Message:
Mili, you seem to forget that we all practiced knowledge, and, speaking for myself, I do not believe that it is the spark of life or anything even close to it. It is a meditation technique, a practice, but it is not the secret of life. I sincerely practiced, and I wanted it to be all that I was promised, but after serious self-reflection, I had to admit that it was not. Perhaps you find it so, but, I'm telling you, it was not so for me and, I suspect, it was not so for many others who post on this site. My decision was based on experience, just as you are always ranting about.
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Date: Tues, Dec 30, 1997 at 15:54:40 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: The Tons of Rotten Vegetables
Message:
Don't lay that sophistry on me JW. You are not good at it. You still have much to learn about it from Jim. I clearly said that I didn't think it was a scare, a threat, but just some practical advice on how this thing works. What do YOU know about it? I know what he said, which you apparently alter to fit your current argument. He said if you don't practice knowledge knowledge will rot and you will be harmed. That's what he said. That can be categorized as a threat or not, but the effect on someone considering leaving the practice is the same. I just looked it up in my little book of sophistry here and it certainly is a threat. We might laugh about it now but there was a time we all took that shit very seriously. Another one was the 'broken telephone' warning. Remember? m told us that our devotion was like a paper cup telephone and that once the string broke it would never be the same. You could tie it, sure, but it would never be the same. There were times when I thought I'd sinned or something that I thought I'd broken that tie with m. Lots of times I wondered if I'd ever get back to the first flush of devotion I felt in getting swept off my feet by the creator of all. m, if you are reading this, you are one measly little asshole, aren't you? When you die your kids will finally get a much fuller picture of you than they'll ever see while you live, apparently. No matter what fake glory you can muster for yourself now, rest assured you will be vilified as a minor twentieth century freak of ego in posterity. Now, that's no threat either, just a simple fact.
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Date: Mon, Dec 29, 1997 at 11:02:57 (EST)
Poster: Mr Ex
Email:
To: Everyone
Subject: Problem with showall=ok
Message:
Clicking on show all messages doesn't show all messages because of synthax error : end of instruction is anything&showall=ok and not anything&shownew=ok !!!!!!!
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Date: Sun, Dec 28, 1997 at 22:30:58 (EST)
Poster: John Cavad
Email:
To: Everyone
Subject: Marriage
Message:
Can I married premie give there all, experience all like a ashram premie? When I got divorced in 1979, Ashram premies lectured me and tried to lure me into the ashram. They said this was my one chance to really experience knowledge (because it was impossible as a married man?). I considered it. But I was enjoying the single life too much: dating all those young, cute sisters. I had some money (my own money!) to spend on them, travel to lots of festivals, and maybe take a new sister for the fun (or quest) of it. I know ashrams don't exist today (though ,maybe tomorrow again). But what was the deal with marriage versus monk/nun?
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Date: Mon, Dec 29, 1997 at 01:19:36 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: John Cavad
Subject: Re: Marriage
Message:
Can I married premie give there all, experience all like a ashram premie? When I got divorced in 1979, Ashram premies lectured me and tried to lure me into the ashram. They said this was my one chance to really experience knowledge (because it was impossible as a married man?). I considered it. But I was enjoying the single life too much: dating all those young, cute sisters. I had some money (my own money!) to spend on them, travel to lots of festivals, and maybe take a new sister for the fun (or quest) of it. I know ashrams don't exist today (though ,maybe tomorrow again). But what was the deal with marriage versus monk/nun? Bill Patterson, and others, who supposedly heard it directly from Maharaji, said that it was really impossible to dedicate your life to Maharaji outside of the ashram and that the ashram had Maharaji's special grace. Also, around 1979, there was a concerted effort to harrass every eligible (non-married and relatively debt-free) premie to move into the ashram by basically questioning their dedication if they didn't do it. John K may recall the summer of 1979 in the DC Community when Randy Prouty was our resident initiator and I was the CC. Randy and I went through the lists of community premies and we basically targeted them to get them to dedicate to the ashram, and many of them did. Many ended up in Miami at the plane project, some dropped careers, relationships, etc. And Maharaji was VERY into it. Randy said M wanted every available premie to be in the ashram and that ashram was really essential for the total dedication that we were told was the ultimate goal of receiving knowledge in the first place. Of course this also had the effect of making people who were married and had children feel like crap, that somehow they were second class citizens in the Maharaji world because they couldn't live in the ashram. People also abandoned their kids to move into the ashram in response to the pressure that was being exerted, with predictable disastrous results. Of course, all the pressure, and add to this pressure that Maharaji would hold ashram meetings at festivals and only ashram residents, and people applying to live in the ashram, were allowed to attend, caused some people to bust up their marriages, and that happened quite a lot, such that one or the other or both parties would then move into the ashram. And then at those ashram meetings Maharaji said lots of crap that scared the shit out of anyone who was considering LEAVING the ashram. Usually, people only left during that period if something awful happened like they knocked someone up or got knocked up. Then they had to leave in disgrace. BTW -- M was steadfastly anti- abortion so that was out of the question too. Does he still hold that view? I don't recall Maharaji saying anything negative about marriage (how could he?), but I do recall him saying several times that premies were having too many children. Shortly after that he banned children from programs. As an ashram premie myself, I felt both envy of householders, because they had more freedom and means of self-expression, and especially because they could have sex, and also I felt grateful that there but for the grace of Maharaji, I would be doing something similar, rather than devoting my life in the institution Maharaji had set up to allow for total dedication to him. Funny, isn't it. Many people gave up everything and trashed their lives for a decade or more and then M just abolished them as some sort of failed experiment. And taking no responsibility for any of it. What a jerk. JW
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Date: Mon, Dec 29, 1997 at 02:01:15 (EST)
Poster: op
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: Marriage
Message:
Hi JW I won't rehash the ashram stuff. We know I wasn't there in the late 70s - maybe eventually I'll post some takes of others who lived through that time and are still practicing. So just a footnote here: Shortly after that he banned children from programs. Not exactly. He set a minimum age limit for general entrance. It really was pretty noisy at events in the 70s, you have to admit. But the minimum age is actually a bit of a paper tiger. In the 80s children were interviewed at the door and asked whether they had come because their parents wanted them to or whether they wanted to see M. This still happens, and they are also informed that they will have to sit still and will be asked to leave if they make noise. This sends a few kids away. A few years ago, the minimum age for kids was set at 9, but now it's been lowered again. My two older children, now in their 20s, lived through the drag me everywhere stage. They cooed and waved at Wadi and Hansi and took their naps under the seats. My son was enchanted when he had an Old MacDonald sticker book and M mentioned Old Macdonald as he spoke. My youngest was part of the EV generation. But she did go to her first event at age 4, and has never been denied entrance. And (hopefully) it's not because I was a superpremie. She did get interviewed every time. She's also skipped events, because she doesn't want to go or because she's babysitting instead. Maybe not the best place to interject this, but it's in the stream of consciousness here: Maharaji does not want children to be forced in any way into 'getting into Knowledge'. His own children have complete freedom to go or not to events. I hope I've done a decent job with my kids - whatever they know about Knowledge has been from events that they chose to go to (except the ones in the early 70s that we dragged them to). We don't have family brainwashing sessions or nightly satsang or video hour or anything like that. The kids have their own questions and their own opinions. All three went to Long Beach this year, but didn't attend all the sessions. None has asked for Knowledge directly, but they've all expressed an interest at one time or another.
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Date: Mon, Dec 29, 1997 at 02:04:33 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: op
Subject: Re: Marriage
Message:
I dare you to let me communicate with your children. Honestly.
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Date: Mon, Dec 29, 1997 at 02:14:11 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: op
Subject: Re: Marriage
Message:
Hi JW I won't rehash the ashram stuff. We know I wasn't there in the late 70s - maybe eventually I'll post some takes of others who lived through that time and are still practicing. So just a footnote here: Shortly after that he banned children from programs. Not exactly. He set a minimum age limit for general entrance. It really was pretty noisy at events in the 70s, you have to admit. But the minimum age is actually a bit of a paper tiger. In the 80s children were interviewed at the door and asked whether they had come because their parents wanted them to or whether they wanted to see M. This still happens, and they are also informed that they will have to sit still and will be asked to leave if they make noise. This sends a few kids away. A few years ago, the minimum age for kids was set at 9, but now it's been lowered again. My two older children, now in their 20s, lived through the drag me everywhere stage. They cooed and waved at Wadi and Hansi and took their naps under the seats. My son was enchanted when he had an Old MacDonald sticker book and M mentioned Old Macdonald as he spoke. My youngest was part of the EV generation. But she did go to her first event at age 4, and has never been denied entrance. And (hopefully) it's not because I was a superpremie. She did get interviewed every time. She's also skipped events, because she doesn't want to go or because she's babysitting instead. Maybe not the best place to interject this, but it's in the stream of consciousness here: Maharaji does not want children to be forced in any way into 'getting into Knowledge'. His own children have complete freedom to go or not to events. I hope I've done a decent job with my kids - whatever they know about Knowledge has been from events that they chose to go to (except the ones in the early 70s that we dragged them to). We don't have family brainwashing sessions or nightly satsang or video hour or anything like that. The kids have their own questions and their own opinions. All three went to Long Beach this year, but didn't attend all the sessions. None has asked for Knowledge directly, but they've all expressed an interest at one time or another. Well, maybe this stuff with children has changed, but I recall distinctly when the edict from Maharaji came down. We were instructed to announce in all the communities that children younger than 12 were not allowed at the programs. Now, if a child actually showed up, I don't know what would have been done.
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Date: Mon, Dec 29, 1997 at 02:38:27 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email:
To: all
Subject: Re: Marriage and Children (Re: Marriage)
Message:
Soeaking of children - I recently asked an ex-premie friend of mine who followed GMJ for 11 years why she left. She said that one thing that really bothered her was that, at festivals, GMJ's kids (the "holy family") always got to sit in a carpeted, air-conditioned, comfortable tent facing the stage, while her children were trying to sleep on concrete floors or were getting sunburnt and bug-bit. She just didn't think that it was right. BTW, please note that she didn't feel this way about the disparity between the treatment of Maharaji and herself - it was only when contrast of the treatment of her children vs. the treatment of Maharaji's children became so apparent that she became angry about it. I think that I would have become angry, too.
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Date: Mon, Dec 29, 1997 at 02:47:02 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: John Cavad
Subject: Re: Marriage
Message:
Can I married premie give there all, experience all like a ashram premie? When I got divorced in 1979, Ashram premies lectured me and tried to lure me into the ashram. They said this was my one chance to really experience knowledge (because it was impossible as a married man?). I considered it. But I was enjoying the single life too much: dating all those young, cute sisters. I had some money (my own money!) to spend on them, travel to lots of festivals, and maybe take a new sister for the fun (or quest) of it. I know ashrams don't exist today (though ,maybe tomorrow again). But what was the deal with marriage versus monk/nun? Dear Johnny - this is perhaps a little bit off the subject, but when I was involved with DLM (between 1972 & 1977), I felt that the only two choices available to devoted premies were either the ashram or married life. I was quite young at the time (16 when I got knowledge in 1972), so I didn't want to make either commitment. Two of my close friends got knowledge at the same time that I did and ended up getting married when they were very young (18 and 19) - both marriages did not work out and ended in divorce. I never felt that there was ANY place for single premies in the premie universe. I didn't want to get married when I was so young, but felt that there was no other choice except moving into the ashram, which I definitely did NOT want to do. Fortunately, I was a bad premie and did neither. This caused me a lot of pain (and non-acceptance) at the time, but I am very glad now that I made neither of those commitments.
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Date: Mon, Dec 29, 1997 at 02:52:54 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Katie
Subject: Re: Marriage
Message:
Whaddaya mean 'there was no place for bachelors'? I was a bachelor until I got married. (Well, not officially, but I had a serious relationship on and off for ten years). Honestly, guys, YOU are the ones who make all this sound like a cult. It wasn't/isn't that way at all.
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Date: Mon, Dec 29, 1997 at 02:58:00 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email:
To: Mili
Subject: Re: Marriage
Message:
Whaddaya mean 'there was no place for bachelors'? I was a bachelor until I got married. (Well, not officially, but I had a serious relationship on and off for ten years). Honestly, guys, YOU are the ones who make all this sound like a cult. It wasn't/isn't that way at all. Dear Mili - you didn't live in the U.S. I really think it was different in Europe, or at least that's what I experienced when I went to England in 1973. I am just telling you my experience - I felt like I had to get married ASAP (except I didn't want to, so I didn't). I didn't mention the word "cult" at all.
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Date: Mon, Dec 29, 1997 at 03:08:55 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Katie
Subject: Re: Marriage
Message:
Whaddaya mean 'there was no place for bachelors'? I was a bachelor until I got married. (Well, not officially, but I had a serious relationship on and off for ten years). Honestly, guys, YOU are the ones who make all this sound like a cult. It wasn't/isn't that way at all. Dear Mili - you didn't live in the U.S. I really think it was different in Europe, or at least that's what I experienced when I went to England in 1973. I am just telling you my experience - I felt like I had to get married ASAP (except I didn't want to, so I didn't). I didn't mention the word 'cult' at all. OK, thanks for the explanation, Katie. BTW, here is a quote for you: Q: How does a person prepare to receive this Knowledge? A: You must realize first why this Knowledge is essential. Then we must make ourselves ready for the Knowledge. When we become ready, then Guru gives us this Knowledge. First we have to become worthy of receiving it. You don't take food at any time. When you feel hungry, then you take food. So become hungry for the Knowledge so you can take it. If your stomach is full and you eat more, you will vomit. Same way, if you are not feeling hungry and you take this Knowledge, you will vomit. You won't practice it. It will get rotten and it will harm you. - September 1971, Toronto Sounds like practical advice by someone who knows how this works to me, not a scare. What do you think?
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Date: Mon, Dec 29, 1997 at 03:17:44 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Mili
Subject: Re: Marriage
Message:
Sounds like practical advice by someone who knows how this works to me, not a scare. What do you think? OK, Mili, here is what I think. I thought I was "hungry" for knowledge when I got it. I cannot imagine what else my "stomach" could have been full of. And apparently the mahatma who gave me knowledge thought so too. And I did try to practice it for five years, and it just didn't do much for me. I did not have a very good experience, and I can't go backwards - I did give it a fair chance, and I am not going to try any more. I can accept that your experience with GMJ and knowledge was good - can you accept my experience? I am not trying to change anyone's mind - I'm just trying to be there for people like myself, who perhaps are NOT having a good experience, and are suffering for it. Regards from Katie
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Date: Mon, Dec 29, 1997 at 05:08:12 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Katie
Subject: Re: Marriage
Message:
Sounds like practical advice by someone who knows how this works to me, not a scare. What do you think? OK, Mili, here is what I think. I thought I was 'hungry' for knowledge when I got it. I cannot imagine what else my 'stomach' could have been full of. And apparently the mahatma who gave me knowledge thought so too. And I did try to practice it for five years, and it just didn't do much for me. I did not have a very good experience, and I can't go backwards - I did give it a fair chance, and I am not going to try any more. I can accept that your experience with GMJ and knowledge was good - can you accept my experience? I am not trying to change anyone's mind - I'm just trying to be there for people like myself, who perhaps are NOT having a good experience, and are suffering for it. Regards from Katie Well, Katie - what can I say - except, perhaps, that I'd rather have you here than Ted Patrick, any day! - Mili
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Date: Mon, Dec 29, 1997 at 09:48:42 (EST)
Poster: John K.
Email: meaculpameaculpameamaximusculpa
To: JW
Subject: Re: Marriage
Message:
John K may recall the summer of 1979 in the DC Community when Randy Prouty was our resident initiator and I was the CC. Randy and I went through the lists of community premies and we basically targeted them to get them to dedicate to the ashram, and many of them did. Many ended up in Miami at the plane project, some dropped careers, relationships, etc. And Maharaji was VERY into it. Randy said M wanted every available premie to be in the ashram and that ashram was really essential for the total dedication that we were told was the ultimate goal of receiving knowledge in the first place. Yes Joe I do remember that. Thanks for bringing back the memory of one of the more obnoxious initiators, RP (IMHO of course). Talk about someone who took his job seriously. Think of the damage he did that summer, you too of course, and last but not least myself. Since I was out there giving ss at the community center passing along the message from M that the ashram was where it was at. Then the question, why was M even demanding that poor RP and other flunkies go out into the highways and byways and give that kind of message. I guess the lesson is that europe was a much nicer place to practice K becuase M did not have as much influence there.
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Date: Mon, Dec 29, 1997 at 10:23:05 (EST)
Poster: op
Email:
To: Katie
Subject: Re: Marriage
Message:
Dear Katie: Hope you're enjoying all the holidays, even those you don't celebrate. when I was involved with DLM (between 1972 & 1977), I felt that the only two choices available to devoted premies were either the ashram or married life. I was quite young at the time (16 when I got knowledge in 1972), so I didn't want to make either commitment. Two of my close friends got knowledge at the same time that I did and ended up getting married when they were very young (18 and 19) - both marriages did not work out and ended in divorce. I never felt that there was ANY place for single premies in the premie universe. I didn't want to get married when I was so young, but felt that there was no other choice except moving into the ashram, which I definitely did NOT want to do. Fortunately, I was a bad premie and did neither. This caused me a lot of pain (and non-acceptance) at the time, but I am very glad now that I made neither of those commitments. Just wanted to interject that things ARE very different now, in that respect. I think it probably always was a bit different in the big cities, where lifestyles were a bit more varied. But nowadays, I really see it as just people. There are ex-ashram premies, a lot of whom are either single or in long-term relationships but unmarried. There are married couples of all sorts (people who both received K and both practice, people who got married after receiving K, premies married to non-premies, etc. etc.). There are gay couples. There are single people with no intention of finding a significant other and there are single people with every intention. I can't find any discrimination in terms of service, ability to practice, go to events, etc. I know you've mentioned that the premie community was a major part of your involvement. You'd find that lacking now - there are friendships, but there is no 'community' as such, either to push and prod, or to go to for support. If that sounds dismal and lacking in human contact, it's not. The friendships I mentioned are sound. I've found a lot more human support than when we were all bound together by some unwritten theoretical contract. It's just not a clique, or a closed society.
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Date: Mon, Dec 29, 1997 at 11:25:56 (EST)
Poster: John K.
Email: kreilkamp@mindspring.com
To: op
Subject: Re: Marriage
Message:
OP: These changes for the better sound like everybody just finally became adults, they finally worked their way through their youthful enthusiastic embracing of idiotic spiritual concepts. But there is something I don't get, which is why not blame m for the EXTREME way we embraced those concepts, and really I don't think there is any doubt that they were fed to us directly from him. I don't mind forgiving people. I mean a major part of living is forgiving myself and others. And even though m has never said he's sorry, I have forgiven him. I really am not into ANGER and RESENTMENT and BITTER FEELINGS. It has nothing to do with what I choose, they are simply not part of my psychological make up. ( I have other problems, don't worry.) I guess what I am getting at is if he was so wrong about how things worked back then, why still listen to him?
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Date: Mon, Dec 29, 1997 at 12:36:35 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: John K.
Subject: Re: Marriage
Message:
OP: These changes for the better sound like everybody just finally became adults, they finally worked their way through their youthful enthusiastic embracing of idiotic spiritual concepts. But there is something I don't get, which is why not blame m for the EXTREME way we embraced those concepts, and really I don't think there is any doubt that they were fed to us directly from him. I don't mind forgiving people. I mean a major part of living is forgiving myself and others. And even though m has never said he's sorry, I have forgiven him. I really am not into ANGER and RESENTMENT and BITTER FEELINGS. It has nothing to do with what I choose, they are simply not part of my psychological make up. ( I have other problems, don't worry.) I guess what I am getting at is if he was so wrong about how things worked back then, why still listen to him? Excellent point, John and my feelings exactly. In addition, if Maharaji doesn't even have enough honesty and integrity to admit his mistakes, why would one have faith or trust in anything else he says, does or preaches? I mean, one's actions, in my opinion, are the best indication of the integrity of a person, as well as the veracity of what they say. And the willingness to accept responsibility for what has occurred under one's direction, is the hallmark of a mature, responsible person. Especially in the case of a spiritual teacher or guide. Thus, although I agree with some of the stuff M says, his track record as a spiritual guide turns me off entirely. As I have said several times, if Maharaji would come forward and acknowledge that at least some people got hurt in his demand for "total dedication" and that, in retrospect, that was a mistake, and that he was too young or whatever, to understand the consequencees of what he was doing, I certainly would have at least some respect for him. I still wouldn't follow him, but I certainly would feel better about the time I spent following him. But I don't think his ego will ever let him do that. All OP and others seem to be able to say is that "things are better now." To me, that falls into the category of "damning by faint praise." It's also a tacit admission that things were pretty messed up in Maharaji's kingdom in the past. Unfortuntely, only the victims get blammed, apparently, for the problem. JW
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Date: Mon, Dec 29, 1997 at 12:45:34 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email: joger02@aol.com
To: John K.
Subject: Re: Marriage
Message:
Yes Joe I do remember that. Thanks for bringing back the memory of one of the more obnoxious initiators, RP (IMHO of course). Talk about someone who took his job seriously. I guess the lesson is that europe was a much nicer place to practice K becuase M did not have as much influence there. John, thanks for your response. Hopefully the war crimes tribunal will not focus on us underlings. IMHO? And what do you mean regarding Europe being a better place to practice K? JW
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Date: Mon, Dec 29, 1997 at 12:51:38 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: Mili
Subject: Re: Marriage
Message:
BTW, here is a quote for you: Q: How does a person prepare to receive this Knowledge? A: You must realize first why this Knowledge is essential. Then we must make ourselves ready for the Knowledge. When we become ready, then Guru gives us this Knowledge. First we have to become worthy of receiving it. You don't take food at any time. When you feel hungry, then you take food. So become hungry for the Knowledge so you can take it. If your stomach is full and you eat more, you will vomit. Same way, if you are not feeling hungry and you take this Knowledge, you will vomit. You won't practice it. It will get rotten and it will harm you. - September 1971, Toronto Sounds like practical advice by someone who knows how this works to me, not a scare. What do you think? Mili, do you agree with Guru Maharaji here that if you don't practice knowledge "[i]t will get rotten and it will harm you"? I guess this is in line with the "ton of rotten vegetables" statement he made some years later. And how does this statement square with what you are always saying that all M says is practice if you like it, and if you don't just leave it? Shouldn't he be continuing to warn people that if they don't practice they will be harmed? JW
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Date: Mon, Dec 29, 1997 at 12:51:41 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: Mili
Subject: Re: Marriage
Message:
BTW, here is a quote for you: Q: How does a person prepare to receive this Knowledge? A: You must realize first why this Knowledge is essential. Then we must make ourselves ready for the Knowledge. When we become ready, then Guru gives us this Knowledge. First we have to become worthy of receiving it. You don't take food at any time. When you feel hungry, then you take food. So become hungry for the Knowledge so you can take it. If your stomach is full and you eat more, you will vomit. Same way, if you are not feeling hungry and you take this Knowledge, you will vomit. You won't practice it. It will get rotten and it will harm you. - September 1971, Toronto Sounds like practical advice by someone who knows how this works to me, not a scare. What do you think? Mili, do you agree with Guru Maharaji here that if you don't practice knowledge "[i]t will get rotten and it will harm you"? I guess this is in line with the "ton of rotten vegetables" statement he made some years later. And how does this statement square with what you are always saying that all M says is practice if you like it, and if you don't just leave it? Shouldn't he be continuing to warn people that if they don't practice they will be harmed? JW
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Date: Mon, Dec 29, 1997 at 12:59:43 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: John K.
Subject: Re: Marriage
Message:
I keep thinking to myself, 'What is their problem???? Things worked fine for me back then, and things are fine for me now. Hey, guys, are you really going to tell me that you don't remember those fab festivals, the bliss experience, the soothing river of satsang, the great music? Going home blissed out after satsang? Everything with that warm glow... That was what it was all about!
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Date: Mon, Dec 29, 1997 at 13:57:38 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: JW
Subject: Re: Marriage
Message:
BTW, here is a quote for you: Q: How does a person prepare to receive this Knowledge? A: You must realize first why this Knowledge is essential. Then we must make ourselves ready for the Knowledge. When we become ready, then Guru gives us this Knowledge. First we have to become worthy of receiving it. You don't take food at any time. When you feel hungry, then you take food. So become hungry for the Knowledge so you can take it. If your stomach is full and you eat more, you will vomit. Same way, if you are not feeling hungry and you take this Knowledge, you will vomit. You won't practice it. It will get rotten and it will harm you. - September 1971, Toronto Sounds like practical advice by someone who knows how this works to me, not a scare. What do you think? Mili, do you agree with Guru Maharaji here that if you don't practice knowledge '[i]t will get rotten and it will harm you'? I guess this is in line with the 'ton of rotten vegetables' statement he made some years later. And how does this statement square with what you are always saying that all M says is practice if you like it, and if you don't just leave it? Shouldn't he be continuing to warn people that if they don't practice they will be harmed? JW I think that these days people are better educated about what the Knowledge really is, and those who decide to take it are more likely to actually practice it. It's not as much a fad, a group thing or peer pressure, as it was to an extent in the early days. Also, I think that M directly taking responsibility for introducing and explaining what the Knowledge entails, and actually revealing it himself, makes for greater quality and understanding about it on the part of the aspirants. As I gather, there is no rush or pressure for anyone to take it unless they are comfortable and fully understand what they are getting into.
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Date: Mon, Dec 29, 1997 at 14:14:13 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: Mili
Subject: Re: Marriage
Message:
BTW, here is a quote for you: Q: How does a person prepare to receive this Knowledge? A: You must realize first why this Knowledge is essential. Then we must make ourselves ready for the Knowledge. When we become ready, then Guru gives us this Knowledge. First we have to become worthy of receiving it. You don't take food at any time. When you feel hungry, then you take food. So become hungry for the Knowledge so you can take it. If your stomach is full and you eat more, you will vomit. Same way, if you are not feeling hungry and you take this Knowledge, you will vomit. You won't practice it. It will get rotten and it will harm you. - September 1971, Toronto Sounds like practical advice by someone who knows how this works to me, not a scare. What do you think? Mili, do you agree with Guru Maharaji here that if you don't practice knowledge '[i]t will get rotten and it will harm you'? I guess this is in line with the 'ton of rotten vegetables' statement he made some years later. And how does this statement square with what you are always saying that all M says is practice if you like it, and if you don't just leave it? Shouldn't he be continuing to warn people that if they don't practice they will be harmed? JW I think that these days people are better educated about what the Knowledge really is, and those who decide to take it are more likely to actually practice it. It's not as much a fad, a group thing or peer pressure, as it was to an extent in the early days. Also, I think that M directly taking responsibility for introducing and explaining what the Knowledge entails, and actually revealing it himself, makes for greater quality and understanding about it on the part of the aspirants. As I gather, there is no rush or pressure for anyone to take it unless they are comfortable and fully understand what they are getting into. Lovely statement Mili, but you didn't answer my question. Do you agree with Guru Maharaj Ji's statement that if you don't practice knowledge, knowledge "will get rotten and it will harm you?" And, again, if not practicing knowledge is actually harmful, why isn't he warning people who receive it of that, because no matter how good the process is, some people won't practice it. JW JW
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Date: Mon, Dec 29, 1997 at 14:30:49 (EST)
Poster: John K.
Email:
To: Mili
Subject: Re: Marriage
Message:
Yes, Mili, you were lucky. You were not in a part of the world that m had much interest in. He chose to concentrate his efforts in america and thus caused great confusion among the mindless masses like myself. whereas you were free to just go your merry way. And yes, you are right, I do remember the blissful nights of ss. Eventually though, I wanted more from life. I think you have the right understanding of this, it's a religion. You say you have not had contact with m for 10 years. Just practice the K, and don't pay any attention to M. That's basically what I do anyway. I mean I still meditate, I find it is very important in getting through life. Most of the criticism and anger on this forum though is not directed at the Knowledge, it's directed at the one who had us sing to him 'my lord is the superior power in person, I bow down before such a wonderful lord.' I do get flashes that this is a pretty stupid way to pass my limited time here on planet earth, but on the other hand I think there is unfinished business in myself, not regarding the practice of meditation but regarding the relationship I had with m.
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Date: Mon, Dec 29, 1997 at 14:38:41 (EST)
Poster: JK
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: Marriage
Message:
imho = in my humble opinion gee, I thought everyone knew that, but of course, now that i think about it I just learned it about 6 months ago, on another forum page i belong to. The europe comment is a pure generalization, because mili seems to have lived free from the influence of the widespread craziness in the premie world of the 70's, and isn't mili somewhere in europe? Maybe it was just the remotest regions of europe.
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Date: Mon, Dec 29, 1997 at 14:43:01 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: op
Subject: Re: Marriage
Message:
OP, The 'community' m's scuttled so easily was supposedly the ultimate community of brothers and sisters in the light and love of truth and God. It was a natural result, we were told by him more often than one could humanly remember, of the experience of knowledge. Do you remember that? Now, as far as I see it, the premies pay for m's embarrassment. Not only can he not risk their sharing their experiences anymore (it's not so bad that some still think he's god. He kinda likes that. It's just that they might actually say as much.). He can't afford to have them hang out together too much. For one thing it looks a little cultish and, let's not forget, appearances are everything. For another, they might start talking with each other too much. OP, if you can't see these obvious inferences you're an idiot. If you don't acknowledge them you're a liar. Oh yeah, by the way, Happy New Year to you too. Sorry, in all the hustle and bustle I forgot what a game this was. I'm serious, by the way, about wanting to talk with your kids about m. You say you want them to make their own minds up about him. Certainly that would include exposure to his critics, wouldn't it?
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Date: Mon, Dec 29, 1997 at 15:25:58 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: JW
Subject: Re: Marriage
Message:
BTW, here is a quote for you: Q: How does a person prepare to receive this Knowledge? A: You must realize first why this Knowledge is essential. Then we must make ourselves ready for the Knowledge. When we become ready, then Guru gives us this Knowledge. First we have to become worthy of receiving it. You don't take food at any time. When you feel hungry, then you take food. So become hungry for the Knowledge so you can take it. If your stomach is full and you eat more, you will vomit. Same way, if you are not feeling hungry and you take this Knowledge, you will vomit. You won't practice it. It will get rotten and it will harm you. - September 1971, Toronto Sounds like practical advice by someone who knows how this works to me, not a scare. What do you think? Mili, do you agree with Guru Maharaji here that if you don't practice knowledge '[i]t will get rotten and it will harm you'? I guess this is in line with the 'ton of rotten vegetables' statement he made some years later. And how does this statement square with what you are always saying that all M says is practice if you like it, and if you don't just leave it? Shouldn't he be continuing to warn people that if they don't practice they will be harmed? JW I think that these days people are better educated about what the Knowledge really is, and those who decide to take it are more likely to actually practice it. It's not as much a fad, a group thing or peer pressure, as it was to an extent in the early days. Also, I think that M directly taking responsibility for introducing and explaining what the Knowledge entails, and actually revealing it himself, makes for greater quality and understanding about it on the part of the aspirants. As I gather, there is no rush or pressure for anyone to take it unless they are comfortable and fully understand what they are getting into. Lovely statement Mili, but you didn't answer my question. Do you agree with Guru Maharaj Ji's statement that if you don't practice knowledge, knowledge 'will get rotten and it will harm you?' And, again, if not practicing knowledge is actually harmful, why isn't he warning people who receive it of that, because no matter how good the process is, some people won't practice it. JW JW I think he makes sure that the person doesn't ask for the Knowledge unless they are actually going to practice it. As for the technicalities of it, I haven't been present at a Knowledge selection or session for a long time, so please don't press me for it. The way I see it, if a person doesn't practice Knowledge they become like you - mean, spiteful, intolerant, frustrated, dissatisfied, bloodthirsty. Blind to beauty, blind to contentment, blind to happiness. Everything opposite to what Maharaji says the Knowledge brings into a person's life. You are the prime examples of it. I mean, that's proof enough, isn't it?
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Date: Mon, Dec 29, 1997 at 16:41:11 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: Mili
Subject: Re: Marriage
Message:
So, I guess you agree with what Maharaji said. As for your comments about me, well, you don't know me in the least and have no basis to judge anything about me, some premies I've known are the most frustrated, intolerant and mean people I have ever met, and oh, yes, fuck you! JW
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Date: Mon, Dec 29, 1997 at 17:32:30 (EST)
Poster: John Cavad
Email:
To: All
Subject: Re: Marriage
Message:
I just turned onto the forum and read all the responses to my proposed topic, "Marriage." Thank you all for the responses. I learned a few things from most of you. I would like to make one suggestion (probably has been made dozens of times already): Please start a new topic if you wish to get off on a totally different topic or tangent. I know one subject sparks off another semi-relavant subject. I'm mentioning this to keep the organization of the topics on the forum. I realize it's not always easy to do. For example, after reading all this stuff it sparked off another new topic (see new topic) and I won't mention it here.
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Date: Mon, Dec 29, 1997 at 18:48:19 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Mili and JW
Subject: Re: Marriage
Message:
The way I see it, if a person doesn't practice Knowledge they become like you - mean, spiteful, intolerant, frustrated, dissatisfied, bloodthirsty. Blind to beauty, blind to contentment, blind to happiness. Everything opposite to what Maharaji says the Knowledge brings into a person's life. You are the prime examples of it. I mean, that's proof enough, isn't it? Mili - this is the second time that you have said that not practicing Knowledge would make people act like JW. Disregarding all the hateful things that you said about him, which were totally gratuitous, and which I don't even think YOU think are true, this just doesn't scare me the way the "rotten vegetable" idea did. Katie By the way, I missed the "rotten" part of your quote last night (I have to quit posting that late at night), but JW is right - GMJ was threatening people. And GMJ and PAM shouldn't have been giving knowledge to kids who were 13 or 18 or any age, really, or to people that had gone to satsang for very short periods, if they expected the people to make that kind of life-threatening decision. I know "it's all different now" but why did it happen in the first place?
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Date: Tues, Dec 30, 1997 at 02:03:34 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: Katie
Subject: Re: Marriage and Children (Re: Marriage)
Message:
I gotta say something about kids. At a few festivals I had the service of security on the darshan line. In those days, parents with children went through first so I watched thousands of parents drag their kids through darshan. I think some of it was child abuse. For hours the parents stood in line holding and walking with tired, hungry, restless, freaked out kids who had no idea what they were doing or why, and yet the whole melieu of darshan as being the most significant event in a human's life meant parents were torn. They wanted their kids to have the benefit of the most significant event in a human's life, but to the kid it was a freaky, uncomfortable, weird, experience. After a while, I could hardly look at the poor kids. An then of course there were those NAMES. In addition to "Satganga" which is ENTIRELY Guru Mahrarj Ji's fault, I cannot tell you the number of families I encountered where a son was named "Darshan" and a daughter was named "Lila." I thought it was gross even then. Other popular names where "Char" (short for Charnamarit), and "Prashad." I also recall one time an aspirant had a daughter named "Maya" and the Mahatma said she had to change her name because that meant "darkness." I don't know what she changed it to , maybe "Light Technique." JW JW
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Date: Tues, Dec 30, 1997 at 08:30:21 (EST)
Poster: Anon
Email:
To: John K.
Subject: Re: Marriage
Message:
John K may recall the summer of 1979 in the DC Community when Randy Prouty was our resident initiator and I was the CC. Randy and I went through the lists of community premies and we basically targeted them to get them to dedicate to the ashram, and many of them did. Many ended up in Miami at the plane project, some dropped careers, relationships, etc. And Maharaji was VERY into it. Randy said M wanted every available premie to be in the ashram and that ashram was really essential for the total dedication that we were told was the ultimate goal of receiving knowledge in the first place. Yes Joe I do remember that. Thanks for bringing back the memory of one of the more obnoxious initiators, RP (IMHO of course). Talk about someone who took his job seriously. Think of the damage he did that summer, you too of course, and last but not least myself. Since I was out there giving ss at the community center passing along the message from M that the ashram was where it was at. Then the question, why was M even demanding that poor RP and other flunkies go out into the highways and byways and give that kind of message. I guess the lesson is that europe was a much nicer place to practice K becuase M did not have as much influence there. Not so. Thanks to the efforts of the likes of David Smith etc. all of us here in Europe were also well aware of Maharajis belief that the Ashram was the placee to be if you were truly commited. I was caught hook, line and sinker. I stayed the whole course and in retrospect think that the 'fear' or intimidating language that came down from MJ to us trusting little premies (whether directly from him or his Instructors) was a very bad and damaging thing for many. I could go on for hours about this.
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Date: Sun, Dec 28, 1997 at 22:16:56 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email: joger02@aol.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Wavering Premies
Message:
Today I was minding my own business at my health club, just doing my lat pulldowns when a familiar face walked by. Lo and Behold, it was a premie I knew 15 years ago. I even remembered her name. I said hello and we talked. Did you go to Australia for the program, I asked? No, she said, I only go to "local" programs. Did you know Maharaji gave darshan at the program in Australia, and has also given darshan in a list of other countries around the world recently, not just in India? I said I was surprised because I had heard M was toning down the "perfect master," "superior power in person" trip and that darshan was such an obvious act of worship, it appeared to militate against that image. No, I didn't know he did that, she said, are you sure? Well, that's what a premie who went told me. I asked: do you think M is heading back to that blatant "I'm god" devotional period like back in the 70s? Boy, that really got me to trash my life for a good 10 years, and I hope that doesn't happen again. She was really shocked that he gave darshan and thought it was really unsettling, although I'm still not sure she believed me completely; but I'm sure she will check it out. She said she was also involved with some other spiritual teacher, but has gone to programs when M came and to local video events. She is definately a "wavering" premie and I had the distinct impression that the darshan-thing may have pushed her over the edge. I also told her to check out "www.ex-premie.com," and that, unfortunately, M had taken steps to wipe out the only other site where premies could post. Too bad, there is only ONE place on the internet to get news on this subject. She said she would definitely check it out. JW
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Date: Sun, Dec 28, 1997 at 17:29:59 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: Everyone
Subject: Favorite Premie Fallacy
Message:
I love it when premies avoid dealing with anything maharaji's said or done that seems inconsistent or indefensible today. They simply tug their heads back into their shells and say 'Maharaji's always said the same thing: the truth is within.' What jokers! The fact is Maharaji said and says a lot of things. Just because he's droned on about one thing as part of his 'perennial philosophy' doesn't mean he hasn't said a million other things as well. Chris is a perfect example of this faulty thinking. He once claimed that maharaji's message hasn't changed since the start. I pointed out that back in '71 maharaji blatantly called himself God in human form. (Chris was of the view that he no longer says this. Indeed, Chris was of the view that he never did say this but I showed him the quotes. There are other ways this argument could go. One could deal with the fact that maharaji still says he's god in human form [e.g. India, 1991] but that's just a different kind of fun.) So chris would just harp on one single element of the incredibly maharaji philosophy -- that truth is within -- and completely avoid anything else I'd ask him about. So, when premies say 'maharaji's always said....' I always feel like asking them 'yeah, but is that ALL he's always said?' That, however, triggers a dialogue.
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Date: Sun, Dec 28, 1997 at 17:45:18 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Favorite Premie Fallacy
Message:
I love it when premies avoid dealing with anything maharaji's said or done that seems inconsistent or indefensible today. They simply tug their heads back into their shells and say 'Maharaji's always said the same thing: the truth is within.' What jokers! The fact is Maharaji said and says a lot of things. Just because he's droned on about one thing as part of his 'perennial philosophy' doesn't mean he hasn't said a million other things as well. Chris is a perfect example of this faulty thinking. He once claimed that maharaji's message hasn't changed since the start. I pointed out that back in '71 maharaji blatantly called himself God in human form. (Chris was of the view that he no longer says this. Indeed, Chris was of the view that he never did say this but I showed him the quotes. There are other ways this argument could go. One could deal with the fact that maharaji still says he's god in human form [e.g. India, 1991] but that's just a different kind of fun.) So chris would just harp on one single element of the incredibly maharaji philosophy -- that truth is within -- and completely avoid anything else I'd ask him about. So, when premies say 'maharaji's always said....' I always feel like asking them 'yeah, but is that ALL he's always said?' That, however, triggers a dialogue. Jim, I thought we hashed it out that Mata Ji said he was God while you were gone. But that doesn't change a thing. If he supposedly once said he was God - no good. Now he doesn't say he is God - no good. Whatever he says - no good, right? He NEVER said he was God. He ALWAYS said that God is the Power, the Energy that is keeping you alive. You want the exact quote? Let me go get it... Q: What is God? A: God is power and due to that power everything is living. God is power. You are seeing my body, and that is not power. This is a container. Power is power, and power belongs to nobody; it belongs to God. Anyone else is a human being. He is a reaction to that Grace, a reaction to that power which is within him. - May 1972, Johannesburg ANYONE, Jim. Do you understand 'anyone'? It means God is in you and in me, and in Maharaji as well. Are you aware of that God?
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Date: Sun, Dec 28, 1997 at 18:05:36 (EST)
Poster: Rick
Email: rtaraday@hotmail.com
To: Mili
Subject: Re: Favorite Premie Fallacy
Message:
I love it when premies avoid dealing with anything maharaji's said or done that seems inconsistent or indefensible today. They simply tug their heads back into their shells and say 'Maharaji's always said the same thing: the truth is within.' What jokers! The fact is Maharaji said and says a lot of things. Just because he's droned on about one thing as part of his 'perennial philosophy' doesn't mean he hasn't said a million other things as well. Chris is a perfect example of this faulty thinking. He once claimed that maharaji's message hasn't changed since the start. I pointed out that back in '71 maharaji blatantly called himself God in human form. (Chris was of the view that he no longer says this. Indeed, Chris was of the view that he never did say this but I showed him the quotes. There are other ways this argument could go. One could deal with the fact that maharaji still says he's god in human form [e.g. India, 1991] but that's just a different kind of fun.) So chris would just harp on one single element of the incredibly maharaji philosophy -- that truth is within -- and completely avoid anything else I'd ask him about. So, when premies say 'maharaji's always said....' I always feel like asking them 'yeah, but is that ALL he's always said?' That, however, triggers a dialogue. Jim, I thought we hashed it out that Mata Ji said he was God while you were gone. But that doesn't change a thing. If he supposedly once said he was God - no good. Now he doesn't say he is God - no good. Whatever he says - no good, right? He NEVER said he was God. He ALWAYS said that God is the Power, the Energy that is keeping you alive. You want the exact quote? Let me go get it... Q: What is God? A: God is power and due to that power everything is living. God is power. You are seeing my body, and that is not power. This is a container. Power is power, and power belongs to nobody; it belongs to God. Anyone else is a human being. He is a reaction to that Grace, a reaction to that power which is within him. - May 1972, Johannesburg ANYONE, Jim. Do you understand 'anyone'? It means God is in you and in me, and in Maharaji as well. Are you aware of that God? M may have said the lines you quoted, but as Jim pointed out, he also said other things. I've read and heard words of M that clearly are his declaration that he is THE living human manifestation of God on earth. I'm not going to post quotes, because if you're convinced he never indicated this, you have your mind made up. It's just baffling that you actually believe this. I realized M had declared he was God, when I was still a premie, but of course, I always used to deny it to "civilians". It was little secret they would realize in good time. Letting the hat out of the bag prematurely might distract them from getting properly manipulated.
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Date: Sun, Dec 28, 1997 at 18:35:16 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Rick
Subject: Re: Favorite Premie Fallacy
Message:
I just thought I'd repost this so you could clearly read it and understand it. Q: What is God? A: God is power and due to that power everything is living. God is power. You are seeing my body, and that is not power. This is a container. Power is power, and power belongs to nobody; it belongs to God. Anyone else is a human being. He is a reaction to that Grace, a reaction to that power which is within him. - May 1972, Johannesburg
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Date: Sun, Dec 28, 1997 at 18:44:47 (EST)
Poster: Brian
Email:
To: Rick
Subject: Re: Favorite Premie Fallacy
Message:
M may have said the lines you quoted, but as Jim pointed out, he also said other things. I've read and heard words of M that clearly are his declaration that he is THE living human manifestation of God on earth. I'm not going to post quotes, because if you're convinced he never indicated this, you have your mind made up. It's just baffling that you actually believe this. I realized M had declared he was God, when I was still a premie, but of course, I always used to deny it to 'civilians'. It was little secret they would realize in good time. Letting the hat out of the bag prematurely might distract them from getting properly manipulated. And isn't it sad, Rick, to have to remember just how much we contributed to their not being "distracted" by something that we knew would cause them to cut and run if we had shared it? MJ learned it, and now eases aspirants into "gratitude" rather than overwhelming them with talk of devotion from the start. Yet we were all at that point once where we had to struggle with the role we would play in MJ's enrichment. And we chose to go along with it. Some, evidently, to the point that they no longer remember that it was a choice. Yes, Mili. It's in everyone. Only not to the same extent as it is in MJ, right? That's why premies will make the pilgrimage to his Kanguru feet, while still ducking and denying in a public forum. Even when surrounded by those of us who once stood ahead of you in line to pranam. But that was the old MJ. The new MJ isn't nearly as honest up front. He's learned. We've learned. You haven't. And probably won't.
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Date: Sun, Dec 28, 1997 at 22:43:03 (EST)
Poster: Rick
Email: rtaraday@hotmail.com
To: Mili
Subject: Re: Favorite Premie Fallacy
Message:
I just thought I'd repost this so you could clearly read it and understand it. Q: What is God? A: God is power and due to that power everything is living. God is power. You are seeing my body, and that is not power. This is a container. Power is power, and power belongs to nobody; it belongs to God. Anyone else is a human being. He is a reaction to that Grace, a reaction to that power which is within him. - May 1972, Johannesburg Now I understand why people call you bad names.
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Date: Sun, Dec 28, 1997 at 22:57:32 (EST)
Poster: Brian
Email:
To: Rick
Subject: Re: Favorite Premie Fallacy
Message:
Rick - I laughed out loud when I read your response. Mili - Try an even larger font. Maybe some colors, or blinking vowels. Somehow your point is still not getting through. Go figure.
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Date: Mon, Dec 29, 1997 at 17:09:24 (EST)
Poster: Michael
Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net
To: Mili
Subject: Re: Favorite Premie Fallacy
Message:
I just thought I'd repost this so you could clearly read it and understand it. Q: What is God? A: God is power and due to that power everything is living. God is power. You are seeing my body, and that is not power. This is a container. Power is power, and power belongs to nobody; it belongs to God. Anyone else is a human being. He is a reaction to that Grace, a reaction to that power which is within him. - May 1972, Johannesburg Hey, Mili, didn't "Do" and the Heaven's Gate kids call their bodies containers? Were they ripping off M's ideas? Shouldn't you guys sue?
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Date: Tues, Dec 30, 1997 at 01:58:23 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Michael
Subject: Re: Favorite Premie Fallacy
Message:
I just thought I'd repost this so you could clearly read it and understand it. Q: What is God? A: God is power and due to that power everything is living. God is power. You are seeing my body, and that is not power. This is a container. Power is power, and power belongs to nobody; it belongs to God. Anyone else is a human being. He is a reaction to that Grace, a reaction to that power which is within him. - May 1972, Johannesburg Hey, Mili, didn't 'Do' and the Heaven's Gate kids call their bodies containers? Were they ripping off M's ideas? Shouldn't you guys sue? Yeah, and wasn't the name of the leader of the 'People's Temple' cult Jim Jones, same as the name of the leader of this anti-Maharaji hate cult is Jim Heller? Notice the similarity?
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Date: Tues, Dec 30, 1997 at 02:18:36 (EST)
Poster: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: prodigalson@pigpen.org
To: Mili
Subject: Re: Favorite Premie Fallacy
Message:
OH MY GOD!!! YOU'RE RIGHT, MILI! HOW COULD I HAVE BEEN SO EASILY MISLED?? I THROW MYSELF AT THE LOTUS FEET OF THE SATGURU AND BEG FORGIVENSS!!!! NOT!
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Date: Tues, Dec 30, 1997 at 02:22:27 (EST)
Poster: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: deadly@punchline.dead
To: Mili and everyone
Subject: Re: Favorite Premie Fallacy
Message:
Since Mili pointed out the similarities between Jim Heller and Jim Jones, I'd advise you all to avoid any kool-aid or punch that Jim may offer you.:-)
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Date: Sun, Dec 28, 1997 at 17:13:30 (EST)
Poster: John Cavad
Email:
To: Everyone
Subject: Chit Chat or Satsang
Message:
Satsang = speaking and listening to one - who is fully practicing & experiencing Knowledge - on the subject of Knowledge and sharing the joy & praise of GMJ and his grace. Chit Chat = everything else. Any of you at the Pocono Retreat in the Summer of 1978. GMJ surprised us by showing up on the last day. For 15 minutes of his satsang, he spoke about all the problems he experienced traveling from Denver to the Poconos (Helicopter stuff, etc.). Sounded like chit-chat to me, though welcomed. What do you think? Listen to his tapes. Sounds like a lot of chit chat.
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Date: Sun, Dec 28, 1997 at 17:41:17 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: John Cavad
Subject: Re: Chit Chat or Satsang
Message:
Yes, I was there. Perfect 'Guru Papers'-level contradiction you're pointing out here, John. You're absolutely right. What esle can be said -- maharaji chastized us mercilessly for 'chit chat' (i.e. talk about anything other than the glory of god). Still, he always insisted that satsang wasn't iin the words and that he could ramble on endlessly while we basked in his divine glory. Once a few of us were sitting around the table some early evening in Ottawa, mid 70s. Annie, you were there, I think. At least you could have been. I remember Cintra was there and a couple of others. We were laughing, just talking about nothing in particular. Who can remember? What I do recall is Brian Gaudet, blews his heart, went up to his room and got his ghetto blaster, came back downstairs and plugged it in. Cued up was maharaji giving some human-hating satsang about the wasteful emptiness of 'chit chat.' Maharaji was screaming. One of those. So there's Brian, playing this tape for us and, if you recall, the trip was maharaji was everywhere. It was only our dirty, worldly consciousnesses that allowed us to doubt or forget. Hearing his voice, however, was supposedly an instant trigger -- a reminder that 'He Is Here Now'. What were we to think? Obvioulsy maharaji was working through Brian who put the tape on. Obviously the Lord was busting us. Now we were also aware of the possibility that Brian was in his mind. Still, maharaji was in everything, all his lila, you know. So there was maharaji blasting us for being human. Brian's fault? Mine? Maharaji's? OP, what do you think?
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Date: Sun, Dec 28, 1997 at 17:41:28 (EST)
Poster: Rick
Email: rtaraday@hotmail.com
To: John Cavad
Subject: Re: Chit Chat or Satsang
Message:
Satsang = speaking and listening to one - who is fully practicing & experiencing Knowledge - on the subject of Knowledge and sharing the joy & praise of GMJ and his grace. Chit Chat = everything else. Any of you at the Pocono Retreat in the Summer of 1978. GMJ surprised us by showing up on the last day. For 15 minutes of his satsang, he spoke about all the problems he experienced traveling from Denver to the Poconos (Helicopter stuff, etc.). Sounded like chit-chat to me, though welcomed. What do you think? Listen to his tapes. Sounds like a lot of chit chat. Although I wasn't at the Pocono retreat, I think I might have heard an audio feed at the Honolulu ashram. I certainly saw the video more than once and read the text of M's speech many times. I think the party line at the time, would have been that all M's chit-chat is actually satsang because it always comes back to "that grace, that love, blah blah blah" and that because M is the center, from which divinity radiates, that everything he says is satsang. Of course, there was his famous direction to "do as I say, not as I do" (re: marriage). Of course, that wasn't chit-chat or satsang... it was bullshit. The idea that M can afford an indulgence like marriage, and in keeping with that, a little chit-chat. I had forgotten about the chit-chat notion. I tried so hard to not chit-chat.
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Date: Sun, Dec 28, 1997 at 18:39:05 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: John Cavad
Subject: Re: Chit Chat or Satsang
Message:
Well, it seems you guys have finally freed yourself of this 'terrible dictator' under whose yoke you had voluntarily placed yourselves, so now you can chit-chat all you want!
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Date: Mon, Dec 29, 1997 at 01:33:48 (EST)
Poster: op
Email:
To: Jim
Subject: Re: since you asked... (Re: Chit Chat or Satsang)
Message:
Brian's fault? Mine? Maharaji's? OP, what do you think? Were you there or did you hear about the time someone asked Maharaji if it was ok to laugh in the ashram? My ashram days were then plagued by a very dictatorial CC who in the evening lost it completely and spent about two hours slingshooting rubberbands at everyone nearby. This invariably sent us all into fits of the giggles. Thus the question, the next time M was around. He seemed rather surprised that anyone would even ask that. Of course we could laugh. Actually, my big test was on a train in India. Amazed at the lushness of the wildlife we were passing, I asked Charananand if it was all right to enjoy nature (inner chit-chat, in my own interpretation). He said, sure, as long as you remember where it comes from. As for your question about Brian and the tape recorder - my very studied opinion is that Brian was in his mind and you should have sent him up to do some meditation. After all, he was the one disturbed by the chatting. But maybe you're right about a few things. I lost a lot of my taste for chitchat - I still hate small talk and am not very good at it. Maybe the years in the ashram did take their toll. But then, I don't define discussion about politics, a decent film, current events, emotional turmoil, or even household necessities as chitchat. Happy New Year, Jim.
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Date: Mon, Dec 29, 1997 at 02:02:27 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: op
Subject: Re: since you asked... (Re: Chit Chat or Satsang)
Message:
OP, you miss the whole point. People have minds, personalities, character.... you know, peopleness. Maharaji told us we had to surrender that, burn it up on the altar of love. The reasno 'chit chat' was verboten was because it was just a residual mark of the old life, the human one. Maharaji fought us for our humanity. Your little story of asking Gurucharanand, if you think about it, is pathetic. 'Is it okay to enjoy nature?' Holy shit. I'm so glad I escaped that spiritual idiocy. And if maharaji's watered it down a bit, he's still the one that fucked with us in the first place. OP, are you still going to be apologizing for him ten years from now? When do you think that little coward will speak for himself?
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Date: Mon, Dec 29, 1997 at 02:30:46 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Jim
Subject: Re: since you asked... (Re: Chit Chat or Satsang)
Message:
Jim wrote: OP, are you still going to be apologizing for him ten years from now? When do you think that little coward will speak for himself? Jim, do you realize how much 'the little coward' actually speaks? There have been around 700 video cassetes issued so far, with 15 new ones every month. Thousands of audio cassettes. Heaps of magazines with printed satsang. It's just that you are blind, deaf and aloof from it all - but, that's the choice you have. The choice you make is always to take the most negative interpretation of the limited perceptions that you have, and to distort the facts whenever it suits your twisted theories. And I don't think OP is apologizing here. She is just being kind in trying to gently soothe the sore that you have made upon your soul yourselves. She is like the saint that tries to save the scorpion that is drowning in the river, and gets stung in return. One of these days she is just going to realize that she doesn't need this kind of aggravation.
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Date: Mon, Dec 29, 1997 at 14:54:36 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: Mili
Subject: Re: since you asked... (Re: Chit Chat or Satsang)
Message:
Jim wrote: OP, are you still going to be apologizing for him ten years from now? When do you think that little coward will speak for himself? Jim, do you realize how much 'the little coward' actually speaks? There have been around 700 video cassetes issued so far, with 15 new ones every month. Thousands of audio cassettes. Heaps of magazines with printed satsang. It's just that you are blind, deaf and aloof from it all - but, that's the choice you have. The choice you make is always to take the most negative interpretation of the limited perceptions that you have, and to distort the facts whenever it suits your twisted theories. And I don't think OP is apologizing here. She is just being kind in trying to gently soothe the sore that you have made upon your soul yourselves. She is like the saint that tries to save the scorpion that is drowning in the river, and gets stung in return. One of these days she is just going to realize that she doesn't need this kind of aggravation. Mili, You are an IDIOT!!! At least you pretend to be. I know m talks a lot. What he doesn't do is face his critics or answer anyone who wants to ask him questions -- real questions, with follow-up questions and everything. As for OP not 'apologizing' here, again you show what a completely stupid person you are. Let's assume, for argument's sake, you're right. OP's trying to gently soothe my sore little soul. It doesn't mean she isn't also apologizing for everything m has ever done. You could just as easily have said ' she isn't apologizing for m, she's telling you something' or a million other inanities. The point is, they're not mutually exclusive. Do you understand? Yes or no?
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Date: Mon, Dec 29, 1997 at 15:13:06 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Jim
Subject: Re: since you asked... (Re: Chit Chat or Satsang)
Message:
Jim, I just realized why you are trying so hard to make me think about things exactly the way you do. You are trying to clone yourself. But, I think two Jims in this universe would be at least one too many.
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Date: Sun, Dec 28, 1997 at 17:02:21 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email: not provided
To: Mili
Subject: Mili, why'd you shut down the premi
Message:
Mili, forgive me if you've already explained and I didn't notice, but why did you and Harlan shut down the premie site?
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Date: Sun, Dec 28, 1997 at 17:20:00 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Mili, why'd you shut down the premi
Message:
We were starting to get some weird E-mail there, from persons who were clearly out to harrass other people. So, we decided to keep things a little bit more private. Why do you ask? Are you missing it already?
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Date: Sun, Dec 28, 1997 at 17:27:33 (EST)
Poster: Brian
Email:
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Mili, why'd you shut down the premi
Message:
Mili, forgive me if you've already explained and I didn't notice, but why did you and Harlan shut down the premie site? Jim, you missed the explaination he posted before Paradise crashed. It went something like this (I'm paraphrasing): "We took the site down because one of your buddies was harrasing people who posted there by emailing them." It turns out that as webmasters, they had no choice but to post people's email addresses. Then some ex was writing email to those premies who posted. They had to take it down for everyone's good, Jim. In Mili's mind, it may actually be stored that way next to the chipdip. It wasn't that the Lord requested it, because he wouldn't deprive his devotees of an outlet for their devotion. It was those ex-premies. Darn their black souls!
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Date: Sun, Dec 28, 1997 at 11:48:54 (EST)
Poster: Ted Patrick
Email:
To: All Aspirants
Subject: WARNING
Message:
Don't join this cult. There's still hope for you to get out now before you're totally a lost soul and slave to a wealthy man; before you are in a sad position of needing years of psychotherapy. Get out, get help NOW!. You have no idea what you're getting into!
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Date: Sun, Dec 28, 1997 at 12:09:45 (EST)
Poster: John K.
Email: Soul@unlost.found
To: Ted Patrick
Subject: Re: WARNING
Message:
Wow, your pretty helpful, not even leaving an email address.
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Date: Sun, Dec 28, 1997 at 12:11:36 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Ted Patrick
Subject: Re: WARNING
Message:
Don't join this cult. There's still hope for you to get out now before you're totally a lost soul and slave to a wealthy man; before you are in a sad position of needing years of psychotherapy. Get out, get help NOW!. You have no idea what you're getting into! Sure, get help from you, right? How many bucks do you charge per hour?
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Date: Sun, Dec 28, 1997 at 12:29:00 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Ted Patrick
Subject: Re: WARNING
Message:
Don't join this cult. There's still hope for you to get out now before you're totally a lost soul and slave to a wealthy man; before you are in a sad position of needing years of psychotherapy. Get out, get help NOW!. You have no idea what you're getting into! The false Prophets of the Anti-cult Cult "Beware of false Prophets. They will come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. By their fruit you will recognise them." --Matthew 7:15-16 The High Courts of both Britain and Ireland recently granted injunctions to restrain disruptive behaviour stirred up by anti-religious fanatics. Odhran Fortune, a member of the Church of Scientology for the last four years, said his family had been manipulated into cooperating with a team of "deprogrammers" in an attempt to destroy his religious beliefs. Fortune visited his family in Ireland for a few days last Christmas and says that for the next five months he was threatened and kept under constant watch to prevent him leaving or even contacting his church. On several occasions he was physically restrained and twice deprived of sleep for more than 24 hours at a stretch while being grilled and harangued by the hired faithbreakers. The team called in to verbally and mentally abuse 24-year-old Fortune included Mike Garde from the Dublin Dialogue Centre, Paul O'Kelly from County Offaly, Mary Johnston of Dublin, and Bonnie and Richard Woods from East Grinstead, Sussex. Fortune described one of the the tactics used to dupe his family: "I was sitting in the living room with my family when O'Kelly, the initial deprogrammer, took one look in my eyes before addressing my family with an air of great authority, proclaiming, "he's brain washed." Each member of my family then looked into my eyes, in awe of this 'profound diagnosis.' The salesman of the 'Emperors New Clothes' couldn't have done a better con job." The level of "dialogue" practised by the deprogrammers is evident from Fortune's description of one bout he received from Bonnie Woods. "When her attempts to smear my religion and its founder failed to make any impression on me, she resorted to shouting angrily," he said. "She then left the room furious and walked into a glass door, smashing it." Illegal Restraint "Deprogramming" is an oppressive procedure developed by a convicted American felon, Ted Patrick. It is designed to induce another to change his or her religious beliefs usually by deceit and persuasion, occassionally by outright force. In Patrick's own book he wrote that deprogramming "may be said to involve kidnapping at the very least, quite often assault and battery, almost invariably conspiracy to commit a crime and illegal restraint." He called the technique deprogramming for a reason: it makes the barbaric practice sound like the criminal is merely "reversing" something previously done. "It is like raping someone and calling it 'de-abstaining'," said Fortune. "It is total hypocrisy. If ever there were wolves in sheep's clothing, here they are." Deprogramming methods have changed in recent years following the criminal conviction of several among their ranks who employed the most violent methods. British deprogrammer Cyril Vosper was convicted and jailed in Germany following a failed attempt to break the faith of a young woman who was physically injured in the assault. Subsequently, other British faithbreakers began to deny using physical force and began to use the term "exit-counselling." Not "Anti-Cult", but Anti-Religion The faithbreakers prey on the ignorant with highly selective and distorted information about "cults". Some demand payment from family members, often thousands of pounds, to "rescue" the person. Others appear motivated by notoriety, or just extreme religious intolerance. Religious authorities throughout Europe say the faithbreakers are not "anti-cult" but, in truth, anti-religion. "From an original strategy focussed on hitting a few religious communities, the phenomenon nowadays has enlarged into a generalised attack against the realities of belief," said Roman Catholic sociologist Professor Dr Massimo Introvigne. The attacks, he said, "hide a general hostility to different forms of belief." Catholic organisations such as Opus Dei, and "even the nuns of Mother Theresa of Calcutta have all been accused of being 'dangerous'. The recurring but untenable accusation is that they practice brainwashing," he said. Ted Patrick himself was banned from re-entry to Canada after an assault on a Roman Catholic adult there. Debbie Dudgeon of Orangeville, Ontario. Dudgeon was forcefully abducted, and dragged screaming and kicking into a car. She later testified that she begged Patrick to understand that she was not a member of a "cult" - she was a Roman Catholic. Patrick replied, "I don't care what you are. Four months with me in the basement and you'll come to think for Yourself. You'll come to see that everything you're doing is wrong." Evidence disclosed in the court proceedings against Patrick, Vosper, and other deprogrammers who have been jailed makes it abundantly clear that it is the "anti-cult" fanatics who "break up families" by using anti religious propaganda to create upsets and disharmony. In the case of Odhran Fortune, he has made it known he would like to reconcile with his family and be able to come and go without anymore attempted deprogrammings. "It is my belief that it is the deprogrammers who are responsible for what was done to me," he said. The idea that religious intolerance is at the root of many problems is not new. Monsigneur Renato Martino, Permanent Observer for the Vatican at the United Nations, recently addressed the UN General Assembly on the subject of religious intolerance in Europe. He described religious freedom as an "indisputable good," but noted that discrimination and political intrusion persist, even in countries whose constitutions recognise freedom of belief as an inalienable right. The role of Dublin Dialogue Centre spokesman Mike Garde in the Fortune case is doubly hypocritical. While the Dialogue Centre is connected to the Catholic Church, Garde himself is an adherent of the Mennonite faith - an Evangelical Protestant Christian group which suffered extreme persecution in its beginnings as a "dangerous sect." The increase of religious intolerance in Europe was highlighted recently in a new book published in June called Freedom of Religion and Belief: A World Report. The book was coauthored by Kevin Boyle and Juliet Sheen of the Human Rights Centre of the University of Essex. "Freedom of belief," say the authors, "is not to be interpreted narrowly by states, for example, to mean traditional world religions only. New religions or religious minorities are entitled to equal protection. This principle is of particular importance in light of the evidence reflected in the country entries, including those in the European section, revealing that new religious movements are a recurring target for discrimination or repression." "Although the objection to new religious movements is often expressed as critism of their methods," the authors add, "It is at bottom a rejection of their freedom of thought which stimulates hostility and restrictions on thier organisations and activities." In the case of Odhran Fortune, no upset would exist if it were not for deprogrammers inciting others to deny his freedom of thought.
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Date: Sun, Dec 28, 1997 at 13:20:10 (EST)
Poster: The Watcher
Email: Q
To: John K.
Subject: Re: WARNING
Message:
Wow, your pretty helpful, not even leaving an email address. The Internet Universe has heard you and here's your answer: edward.m.fitzpatrick@dartmouth.edu
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Date: Sun, Dec 28, 1997 at 16:34:33 (EST)
Poster: guessing
Email: fuzzflea
To: Mili
Subject: game (Re: WARNING)
Message:
You can bring a horse to water but you can't make him drink. Ted patrick is contacted by family members who love the 'victim' and want to help but don't feel skilled in the type of help the person supposidly needs. Many times the people have enough money that they would like to leave with thier child or brother but don't want to be leaving it to sunmyung moon or david koresh or those ridiculous scientologists or those fantasy loving mormons or the khrishna chanters or whomever. Last night I watched tv for all of 45 minutes, and I saw two ads for scientology and one for mormons. I hardly ever watch tv so I presume that is the normal kind of onslaught by the richer fantasy new age groups. Of course maharaji is of more worth that these groups but still, I can't come up with any redeeming value to the you can look at me as lord angle. Maybe I am missing something? some perspective on it that kind of explains it. want to give it a go mili? One way would be to say that there never can be a lord and so they all have been just regular folks and whats the problem with having a new religion since so many others are created every other day that don't have the breath as a feature. Did I just take away you only possible response? Maybe you have some other.
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Date: Sun, Dec 28, 1997 at 17:31:55 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: guessing
Subject: Re: game (Re: WARNING)
Message:
You can bring a horse to water but you can't make him drink. Ted patrick is contacted by family members who love the 'victim' and want to help but don't feel skilled in the type of help the person supposidly needs. Many times the people have enough money that they would like to leave with thier child or brother but don't want to be leaving it to sunmyung moon or david koresh or those ridiculous scientologists or those fantasy loving mormons or the khrishna chanters or whomever. Last night I watched tv for all of 45 minutes, and I saw two ads for scientology and one for mormons. I hardly ever watch tv so I presume that is the normal kind of onslaught by the richer fantasy new age groups. Of course maharaji is of more worth that these groups but still, I can't come up with any redeeming value to the you can look at me as lord angle. Maybe I am missing something? some perspective on it that kind of explains it. want to give it a go mili? One way would be to say that there never can be a lord and so they all have been just regular folks and whats the problem with having a new religion since so many others are created every other day that don't have the breath as a feature. Did I just take away you only possible response? Maybe you have some other. Bill, I don't know what it is - I must be brainwashed or something - but I read your post twice, and I can't get head or tail of what the fuck are you talking about? (And don't bitch about my I.Q, please - its above average, I did a test.)
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Date: Sun, Dec 28, 1997 at 22:22:46 (EST)
Poster: brain
Email: b
To: Mili
Subject: farts (Re: WARNING)
Message:
I'll leave the bitching to anonomousie. I have always felt you were quite smart. And you pull things from interesting sources quite a bit. And they are always varied. You could have skipped the IQ test and just inquired at the web site here. I don't think anyone here thinks your stupid, oh jeeez now i sound like Katie. Well, if my question was muddled and stunk, maybe it qualified for what maharaji calls 'brain farts' If chris is back from vacation maybe he can elaborate on the definition. maybe I shouldn't have introduced that term here. well, it's a creative bunch. Obviously Bobby is no dummy either. I'm glad he is as stuck here as the rest of us.
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Date: Mon, Dec 29, 1997 at 02:55:34 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: bburke
Subject: Re: farts (Re: WARNING)
Message:
I'll leave the bitching to anonomousie. I have always felt you were quite smart. And you pull things from interesting sources quite a bit. And they are always varied. You could have skipped the IQ test and just inquired at the web site here. I don't think anyone here thinks your stupid, oh jeeez now i sound like Katie. Burke, baby, please be careful when you make remarks like that. Unless you are prepared to suffer the wrath of Kathryn the Great, that is. I do get angry sometimes, you know. BTW I do think Mili is very intelligent (not to mention good-looking) although I don't agree with all he says, likewise Bobby, and Jim of course, and you too (except for the good-looking part, because I don't know what you look like).
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Date: Mon, Dec 29, 1997 at 20:50:34 (EST)
Poster: Katrinka
Email: zz
To: Katie
Subject: the greatnick (Re: WARNING)
Message:
Hi kathryn, let me put it this way, edith is a women with love in her eyes and that makes anyone beautiful. People that think they are beastly looking look great when they are happy. Edith is a knockout however. I haven't seen (ms) mili, but I worry when I hear a ticking sound. Now Katie, you know you are like florence nightengale, It isn't an insult to comment on your caretaking. But I think you stayed out of the Bobby/Jim fracas earlier and I was kind of waiting for you to play a role in that. I think bobby is writing a book and he may exact some revenge at that time. So, was santa good to you?
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Date: Mon, Dec 29, 1997 at 23:54:06 (EST)
Poster: Bobby
Email:
To: Katrinka (bb)
Subject: Re: the greatnick (Re: WARNING)
Message:
Now Katie, you know you are like florence nightengale, It isn't an insult to comment on your caretaking. But I think you stayed out of the Bobby/Jim fracas earlier and I was kind of waiting for you to play a role in that. I'm not surprised that Katie hasn't stepped in. She considers herself a friend to both Jim and me. Katie doesn't want to mediate us. I think bobby is writing a book and he may exact some revenge at that time. I'm not out for revenge. I'm out for true expression. The attacks are annoyances and sometimes upsets to me. I'm truly attempting to understand how to not get thrown into anger. I experience a full palette of emotions -- joy, upset, bliss, anger, love, calm, and all kinds of shades and colors in between. I look for transcendent experiences while being fully present in my body and my emotions. I'm not sure it's possible, I'm not sure that emotions and transcendent experience aren't mutually exclusive. It's a dance.
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Date: Tues, Dec 30, 1997 at 02:24:24 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Bill
Subject: Re: the greatnick (Re: WARNING)
Message:
Now Katie, you know you are like florence nightengale, It isn't an insult to comment on your caretaking. But I think you stayed out of the Bobby/Jim fracas earlier and I was kind of waiting for you to play a role in that. I think bobby is writing a book and he may exact some revenge at that time. So, was santa good to you? Hi Bill - I really do not want to be like Florence Nightingale - or even Mother Teresa. I can't help it sometimes, but I usually regret it. I do care for people, but I don't want to be a caretaker, if you understand the difference. I tried to mediate between Bobby and Jim once, and learned my lesson. Now I just stay out of it, which I am sure they both appreciate. BTW, I'm not too worried about Bobby taking revenge on me - I have already apologized for meddling in his & Jim's business. Besides, he's been pretty nice to me so far. P.S. Edith? I am missing something here.
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Date: Sat, Dec 27, 1997 at 22:32:11 (EST)
Poster: Sir David
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: Everyone
Subject: Multilevel rip off
Message:
This is a slightly longer version of the post I posted way down below. I've put it up here because it's highly relevant and shouldn't be missed. I just want to correct one misunderstanding regarding the multi level water filter business. The premies who purchased the filters with the aim of selling them had already sent money to Maharaji if Maharaji is at the top of the multilevel pyramid. Multilevel marketing is great for the people at the top of the pyramid - they just cannot lose. The people further down the pyramid may show a loss but that doesn't affect the people up line who have already taken their commission from the sales of the stock to the people who have made a loss. In my view, multilevel marketing is a rip off. It runs on the same principal as a chain letter. It is impossible for everybody to make a good profit but if you can recruit enough people downline then even if the product doesn't in the end sell very well to the public, the people (i.e. suckers) recruited downline will ensure profits for those upline. For multilevel marketing to work well for everybody it has to grow exponentially - and that requires an infinite number of people to take part. Such a thing is of course, impossible. I would suspect that products which are sold via multilevel marketing are those products which due to poor quality would not be sold successfully through the normal retail markets. David Simpkiss.
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Date: Sun, Dec 28, 1997 at 07:06:55 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Sir David
Subject: Re: Multilevel rip off
Message:
This is a slightly longer version of the post I posted way down below. I've put it up here because it's highly relevant and shouldn't be missed. I just want to correct one misunderstanding regarding the multi level water filter business. The premies who purchased the filters with the aim of selling them had already sent money to Maharaji if Maharaji is at the top of the multilevel pyramid. Multilevel marketing is great for the people at the top of the pyramid - they just cannot lose. The people further down the pyramid may show a loss but that doesn't affect the people up line who have already taken their commission from the sales of the stock to the people who have made a loss. In my view, multilevel marketing is a rip off. It runs on the same principal as a chain letter. It is impossible for everybody to make a good profit but if you can recruit enough people downline then even if the product doesn't in the end sell very well to the public, the people (i.e. suckers) recruited downline will ensure profits for those upline. For multilevel marketing to work well for everybody it has to grow exponentially - and that requires an infinite number of people to take part. Such a thing is of course, impossible. I would suspect that products which are sold via multilevel marketing are those products which due to poor quality would not be sold successfully through the normal retail markets. David Simpkiss. So, basically what you are saying - the reason that you left Maharaji is because he sold you a bad water filter? (Sorry guys - I just couldn't resist.)
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Date: Mon, Dec 29, 1997 at 08:55:43 (EST)
Poster: Mr Ex
Email:
To: Mili
Subject: Re: Multilevel rip off
Message:
The is exactly the point : maharaji sold me (and obviously some other people) a defective whatever you call it. Did you read this ? ------------------------------------------------ Department of Consumer Affairs Caveat Emptor (Buyer Beware) Caveat Emptor is a list of 144 businesses that have not satisfactorily responded to the Tennessee Division of Consumer Affairs provided by the consumer. At least two attempts were made to contact the business, the second attempt being a certified letter. The division is publishing this list to help consumers be more aware of businesses who have an unsatisfactory record in handling complaints and to encourage businesses to respond in a timely manner to the division when presented with consumer complaints. ................. National Safety Assoc., 4260 E. Raines Road, Memphisn, TN, 38118, Business Opportunity ................. For more information about CAVEAT EMPTOR or any other inquiries contact the Tennessee Division of Consumer Affairs at any of the numbers listed below. Call: 800.342.8385 615.741.4737 Write: 500 James Robertson Parkway Nashville, TN 37243 e-mail: dca@mail.state.tn.us. Internet Web Site: http://www.state.tn.us/consumer ------------------------------------------------ The truth is that is is not able to sell anything good. He is very likely a good pilot, makes a good job editing videos or music. He is wise enough to rip people off their �worldly wealth�, wise enough to cheat on IRS and taxes, but not responsible enough to sell anything good in any field.
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Date: Sat, Dec 27, 1997 at 16:11:48 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email: huh?
To: Everyone
Subject: Am I missing something?
Message:
You know, I really don't get it. Bobby posts something about bad words being evidence of 'moral cowardice'-- whatever that's supposed to mean. So I just simply asked him if not avoiding logic also qualified and he got all huffy. Really, I'm amazed and, well I have to say, hurt. I mean all I said was: 'Hey Bobby, you pompous spiritual prig, I consider your avoidance of logic -- only when it suits you, of course -- to be 'moral cowardice' as well. What do you say? Hmm? Maybe? Maybe Jim's got a point there, huh? Come on, Bobby, let me know your honest thoughts here. Don't hold back, please.' Now if that isn't simple, direct and unemotional I give up. I mean I even invited him to give an affirmative answer. That's positive, isn't it? An invitation to affirm? Well I thought so. Instead, here's what I get: 'I say you are a vicious slut who deserves to have his ass kicked. I'd welcome the chance to do it myself. You have nothing to do with 'logic' per se. You love meanness and spite. You make the world worse with your slimy behavior.' 'Why me?' I wonder. I just don't get it. Then, to make matters worse, Mili hits me when I'm down. I won't even copy what he said. Believe me, it was very hurtful. Can anyone help me out here?
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Date: Sat, Dec 27, 1997 at 17:10:37 (EST)
Poster: Brian
Email:
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Am I missing something?
Message:
You and Bobby are probably the biggest mismatch present on the forum, and there are some doozies. I've expressed anger and frustration with Bobby's perspective in the past myself. But, his last response to me caused me to recall those premies I met who didn't view MJ as the center of the universe. They were always a puzzle to me at the time. As I saw it then, you either did or did not accept that MJ was the Lord Of The Universe. Mainly, I thought that those who just didn't see it were people who just didn't see it YET. Given time they would share "my keen insight" into his true nature. I thought the same about my family and friends, not to mention the rest of the world which would soon be flocking to his lotus feet as he ushered in the millenium. I view myself as having been mistaken then. My sense of frustration with Bobby at his not denouncing MJ as loudly as I think he should is probably just the flip-side of the same bogus coin. It's still far too easy to think that, given enought time and/or prodding/goading, these same people will share "my keen insight". Had I taken the whole trip with a grain of salt, as Bobby appears to have done, I don't think I would even be posting here. I still fall into the trap of believing that, just because SOME of the ex's here share my views, that everyone actually does - some just don't express it for some reason, and I get frustrated with them in that light. I also have difficulty understanding why anyone would have gotten involved in the whole cult if they DIDN'T share the beliefs that led me to get involved. I saw myself as being alive at that ONE point in human history where I would not only witness but get to be involved in the ushering in of actual peace among all people alive. I've met a lot of strange ones (I'm sure they can say the same thing), but have usually been able to find some common ground. Not always, but usually. It's possible that you and Bobby will just never find that. You both don't HAVE to keep beating the issue to death. But you both CHOOSE to often enough. And it's no great joy to have to watch, believe me.
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Date: Sat, Dec 27, 1997 at 17:58:01 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: Brian
Subject: Re: Am I missing something?
Message:
Last night, a couple of friends came over and, on a whim, I showed them the 'Lord of the Universe' video. I wanted them to see it because we have some mutual friends who are still premies and who -- surprise, surprise -- I've sparked with a bit over maharaji. I wanted these other guys to see what it was really like back then. Did they ever. I asked Brad, 'now that you've seen this glimpse into the premie-world of 1973, what do you think of Mike, Robert and Peter's claim that I'm making it all up, that maharaji never postured as the Lord of the Universe, that we weren't all swept up in some frothy, apocalyptic/ utopian fantasy?' Brad called it as I knew he would. Anyone seeing that film has to admit that it's ludicrous to suggest that some small, eccentric segment of hard-cores were responsible for all that hype. It clearly was a group thing. Sure, I knew lots of premies who never really bought into the trip. The thing is, they never lasted. The group mentality was so fervent and relentless one either swam with it or got out of the water. A lot of premies now pretend they never bought into maharaji's outdated bullshit as a matter of convenience. I have no doubt that if they were regular premies in any way, shape or form for even the briefest period, they're not telling the truth. Really, you should see this video. There we all are, marching, singing, blissing out, bhole shrieking, pranaming, proselytizing, smiling, hugging, hoping, loving. I remember. I had a feel, as did we all, for how much doubt or distraction the trip could accomodate before one risked real derailment. Let me mix metaphors. We were in a hot air balloon. The only way to stay aloft was to regularly jettison doubts and competing interests and attractions. I won't accept that this was different for different people. I heard us all talk. We weren't all so different in this regard. In order to hang in there premies had to conform externally and internally as well. After all, just a seed of protected inner doubt was all it took to eventually take one away. We knew that and prostrated accordingly. How many premies do you know who didn't go through darshan? Who didn't hold their hands up for charnamrit or prasad? Who didn't once pray to maharaji to free them from their minds and show them the 'real' meaning of life? Who didn't pray for the purity of heart needed to see maharaji in the light? You should see the video.
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Date: Sat, Dec 27, 1997 at 19:16:55 (EST)
Poster: Brian
Email:
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Am I missing something?
Message:
Really, you should see this video. There we all are, marching, singing, blissing out, bhole shrieking, pranaming, proselytizing, smiling, hugging, hoping, loving. Thanks a lot, Jim... Now you've gone and ruined a perfectly good TV dinner. Hope you're happy now. I've been told by some people (TV mostly - it's a great source of factual information [grin]) that when I die my life will pass before my eyes. I don't know about you, but I'm planning to go into major denial. The mere possiblility that this might be true is enough to make me feel that if there really IS an actual god-guy out there somewhere, he must be one very twisted SOB.
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Date: Sat, Dec 27, 1997 at 21:37:12 (EST)
Poster: anonomousie
Email: **
To: Jim
Subject: I am not missing something. (Re: Am I missing something?)
Message:
I don't know if I would call you a coward Jimmie, remember the Well hello Jimmie, laugh and the world laughs with you, fart, and you sleep alone. Too bad about that god awful tendency of yours. Thats ok, one of the advantages of living alone is that you don't have to wake up in the arms of a loved one. You like cards, sex is like bridge, if you have a good hand, you don't need a partner. You think, therefore you are single. Sorry, you know how it is, I was devoted to you and now the breakup left some residual burn marks. Lawyers, hmmm,'if love is the answer, could you please rephrase the question?' So how are you Jimmie? You lying cheating, bast- oh, sorry, got carried away. I think it's my mother who is visiting my new husband and I thats making me so bitchy. She was just awful today, so, since I was driving with her, I stopped in front of the local strip joint, put it in park, and said 'I'll be right back, I have to pick up my check.' She was real quiet for a while. You can still make me laugh, I must be twisted. Brian is right about the mismatch of course. The new age is getting older but isn't getting any wiser.
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Date: Sat, Dec 27, 1997 at 21:51:36 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: anonomousie
Subject: Re: I am not missing something. (Re: Am I missing something?)
Message:
You signed a "see-no-evil, hear-no-evil", remember? Now you're gone, I'm alone and yes, I hurt. Honestly? You weren't much to look at but..... sorry, did I say something? Hey, don't get so all.... shit, don't do that! Don't make a scene. Not here. Please don't do that. Please don't cry... you know how I hate drawing negative attention to myself. Please, mousee, get a grip. Forget the contract.... no don't forget the contract. What am I saying? Oh shit!
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Date: Sat, Dec 27, 1997 at 22:09:16 (EST)
Poster: Anonomousie
Email: **
To: Jim
Subject: mental togetherness (Re: Am I missing something?)
Message:
Sure I'm a tad plump. Can you imagine a world without men? No crime (except shoplifting) and lots of fat happy women. You know, people say that they don't believe that it is possible for everyone to think the same way, but we come damn close sometimes. You don't believe me? A few years ago I swear to god, everyone in america was thinking the same thing; What does michael jacksons' dick look like? Is it a tattoo that got him in trouble? Is there a pattern? Does it look like diana ross? So it's possible right?
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Date: Tues, Dec 30, 1997 at 00:17:22 (EST)
Poster: Bobby
Email:
To: Brian
Subject: Re: Am I missing something?
Message:
I've expressed anger and frustration with Bobby's perspective in the past myself. But, his last response to me caused me to recall those premies I met who didn't view MJ as the center of the universe. Brian, I really appreciate your willingness to reflect on your perspectives. It shows that you use careful consideration in reading what others post. It seems to me that we all became involved with Maharaji for our own reasons. It is presumptuous to assume that others either came to Maharaji, left Maharaji, or viewed Maharaji in the same ways that we did. I came to Maharaji looking for a guru. I was turned on by Ram Das' descriptions in Be Here Now. (I've recounted this story elsewhere). I stopped accepting Maharaji as my true guru because, among other reasons, he does not seem to embody the qualities that I would consider authentic spiritual mastery. I'm still very, very interested in spirit. I've made it the best part of my life work. The "Lord of the Universe" trip always seemed facile and fundamentalist to me. Even while I practiced Knowledge ardently, I still was interested in the ranges of other spiritual practices and considered some of them authentic indeed.
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Date: Tues, Dec 30, 1997 at 01:22:42 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: Bobby
Subject: Re: Am I missing something?
Message:
I've expressed anger and frustration with Bobby's perspective in the past myself. But, his last response to me caused me to recall those premies I met who didn't view MJ as the center of the universe. Brian, I really appreciate your willingness to reflect on your perspectives. It shows that you use careful consideration in reading what others post. It seems to me that we all became involved with Maharaji for our own reasons. It is presumptuous to assume that others either came to Maharaji, left Maharaji, or viewed Maharaji in the same ways that we did. I came to Maharaji looking for a guru. I was turned on by Ram Das' descriptions in Be Here Now. (I've recounted this story elsewhere). I stopped accepting Maharaji as my true guru because, among other reasons, he does not seem to embody the qualities that I would consider authentic spiritual mastery. I'm still very, very interested in spirit. I've made it the best part of my life work. The 'Lord of the Universe' trip always seemed facile and fundamentalist to me. Even while I practiced Knowledge ardently, I still was interested in the ranges of other spiritual practices and considered some of them authentic indeed. Bobby, did you follow any other spiritual paths or have any other spiritual masters while you practiced knowledge? JW
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Date: Tues, Dec 30, 1997 at 02:31:44 (EST)
Poster: CD
Email:
To: Sparkin Jim
Subject: **** Video Review (Re: Am I missing something?)
Message:
Nice suprise review of the 'Lord of the Universe' video! You used to have fun. It wasn't a mental thing. You still can feel joy without reason. We all aren't so different. Remember to jettison your doubts when in front of the judge and jury. And don't show Brad too many more videos. Lacking the mental closure of a mature explanation, Happy New Year, CD
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Date: Tues, Dec 30, 1997 at 10:39:03 (EST)
Poster: Bobby
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: Am I missing something?
Message:
Bobby, did you follow any other spiritual paths or have any other spiritual masters while you practiced knowledge? I didn't "follow" other paths or masters but I remained very interested and considered deeply the nature of other spiritualities and masters. The basis for my spirituality is my near-death experience and spiritual crisis that happened in 1969. I had visions that remain true for me today after almost 30 years. These are mythic visions. (see post above where I explain that most people don't understand my experience). I've read a lot and encountered lots of folks from different practices. When I was a premie in India in 1971 I went to visit Ram Das. He was staying at a hotel in Connaught Circus in Delhi. I spent some wonderful time with him personally and he gave me basis for further understanding my spiritual crisis experiences. Over the years I had other occasions to hang out with him. Once when Satsang was happening out at Stony Brook Long Island I heard that Carlos Castenada was speaking to a group of folks on campus. I went to see him and had a very enjoyable time. While an ashram resident in New York City in 73-74 I worked in Divine Sales. Lots of premies gave up lots of great books and libraries of books. I got the Divine Carpenters to build me a special bookstore in the back of Divine Sales. I had my own private office with my own private library. Over the months I got to read some really great stuff and have extended conversations with folks who would drop by. I've been strongly influenced by some of the books I have read and have read pretty thoroughly in the varieties of spiritual practices.
My spiritual practice is my own. I've been strongly influenced by Buddhism, Hinduism, and shamanism for the spiritual dimensions. I've also participated strongly in emotional/psychological dimensions. For a number of years in the late '80's I was involved with another "cult-like" group called Insight. I had some extremely powerful, wonderful experiences, and was able to come to terms with some major personal dysfunctionalities. For a time I also checked out the group behind Insight - MSIA - Movement for Spiritual Inner Awareness. I am an initiate. I met John-Roger at a program, was turned off to him, and didn't continue my affiliation with MSIA. You can read about John-Roger in Life 102 (what to do when your guru sues) by Peter McWilliams. The full text of this book is available on the internet. It is a fascinating account that has some similarities to Maharaji and DLM.
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Date: Sat, Dec 27, 1997 at 11:24:50 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email: joger02@aol.com
To: Everyone
Subject: The Businesses
Message:
The thread below about the businesses that support Maharaji I find interesting, because I was involved in some of the businesses when I was a premie, such as they were. Regarding NSA, I'm still stunned that I actually bought one of those filters. Guess I should return it like the two defective ones I already returned. BTW -- when I called the company in Tennesse, I expected to have some trouble replacing the filter because it was at least 10 years old and I didn't know if the product was still being produced. The guy on the telephone said "we only make one filter and it hasn't changed." But aren't the filters sold by individuals and unavailable in stores? At least I tried to find the filter at a retail store and no one stocked it. Another business I remember is Yerba Buena Botanicals in the Bay Area. It was started by a premie in Berkeley who had one of those "colon cleansing" products based on a book he had written. Because it is illegal under FDA regulations to both recommend a drug or herbal product and also sell it (to prescribe and produce and sell) he had to separate himself from the production side of the business if he also wanted to retain royalties from his book. So, he approached me, and as CC in San Francisco, I arranged for a guy I knew in Miami (Richard Eberly) (he had been treasurer in the Miami community) to relocate to Berkeley and manage the business because the owner wanted to dedicate it to M. From there the business grew, hired more premies as workers, and I know that some years ago it moved from Oakland, California to Ashland, Oregon. I still see the products in health food stores. Anyone know if profits from this business go to M? BTW -- the original owner of the business I believe has left M, has written another book, and has started a competeing business run by someone else. And what about the grocery stores? Doesn't anyone know? And there was that guy from Atlanta, whose name I can't recall, who I think was in charge of all the stores on a national level, and M wanted to change the names of the stores from "Rainbow Grocery" to "Premark," I guess because the name was in line with his ego trip and included part of his own name. JW
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Date: Sat, Dec 27, 1997 at 12:48:19 (EST)
Poster: bftb
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: The Businesses
Message:
The businesses.Now this is interesting stuff.As I stated in my post below;one of the more frustrating aspects of the premie world was the lack of desire on the part of premies to really question the financial aspect of the organisation. I used to question these things without any suspiciousness;I just wanted to know how things worked. All this talk of this NSA company brought back a memory where I was at a video program and overheard a comment by a longtime premie which intimated that M gets a piece of the NSA action.I asked this person point blank"does M own NSA?"the response was a smiling"I don't know,let's talk about this another time" Of course there was no other time and this site is the first I'm hearing about NSA since then.Seems like some people did know about all these businesses that do in some way benefit M/EV,but they wouldn't discuss it with a mere peon newbie premie like myself. All part of the premie pecking order game I suppose.Never could learn to play the 'climb the social ladder' game in the premie or any other world where such childishness takes place. Anyhow;thanks to you and all the people with knowledge of these things who are now sharing that knowledge. p.s.-to j.w.:That NSA filter sounds like a real expensive clunker.There's a filter product out there called BRITA,you buy the pitcher for around$15 and (3 mos.)replacement filters for around$5.You fill the pitchers reservoir with tap water and a few minutes later you have around 10 real glasses worth of filtered water.Cheap,quick,easy,effective.Not as effective as a reverse osmosis drop a minute system,but from the sounds of it I'm pretty sure it would do better then the NSA one.
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Date: Sat, Dec 27, 1997 at 13:49:26 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email: joger02@aol.com
To: JW
Subject: Re: The Businesses
Message:
I have also posted this question below, but I would like to know if NSA or Amtext are incorporated and if so in what state. Also, are either publicly held companies such that they would have to file reports with the state and SEC? How did Mr. Ushida get involved with M, and again, does M or his family have any actual ownership interest in either company or is NSA just a pyarmid scheme with M put at the top like Bill posted? I can research some of this myself, but I would be interested in knowing how much of these financial dealings have been disclosed to the public or the government. And Mr. Ex or anyone else, if you have information about how the money flows from these organizations to M, I would be all ears. I would bet a complicated corporate scheme has been set up to hide where the money actually goes. I recall that with the Boeing 707, they tried to set up a corporate structure to hide who the plane actually belonged to, but it was fairly lame and superficial and a court would "pierce that veil" without much trouble. And what about the grocery stores? And what about the pay and benefits of the people who work in those companies? And when you say premies are "encouraged" to work in those businesses, what do you mean? JW
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Date: Sat, Dec 27, 1997 at 20:35:26 (EST)
Poster: John K.
Email: 007@BondJames
To: JW
Subject: Re: The Businesses
Message:
I was in a 'secret' business in Miami Beach that most 'ordinary' premies were not allowed to know about. We were under strict orders not to ever talk about what we did with ANYONE. Top secret hush hush It was NOT the airplane, no, it was even more secret than that!. I was sworn to secrecy though, so I can't divulge any of the incredibly juicy details.
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Date: Sun, Dec 28, 1997 at 21:34:33 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email: joger02@aol.com
To: John K.
Subject: Re: The Businesses
Message:
I was in a 'secret' business in Miami Beach that most 'ordinary' premies were not allowed to know about. We were under strict orders not to ever talk about what we did with ANYONE. Top secret hush hush It was NOT the airplane, no, it was even more secret than that!. I was sworn to secrecy though, so I can't divulge any of the incredibly juicy details. To WHOM did you swear this "secrecy" and why was it so secret. Was it secret because it was embarrassing? Did you swear to "god," to the U.S. Government? Do you think something would happen to you if you talked about it all these years later. Oh, come on! BTW -- very little in DLM EVER remained secret. Premies were notorious blabbler mouths. So, can you tell us what is was? I probably knew of its existence. E-mail me if you don't want to disclose it on the forum. JW
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Date: Sun, Dec 28, 1997 at 23:05:23 (EST)
Poster: busted
Email: buzz bee
To: John K.
Subject: up (Re: The Businesses)
Message:
Well now, there were sure a lot of 'secret' companies. And they ran from the bus company, the financial services company the t-shirt company the sprout company the tofu company the two construction companies the dry cleaners travel agent company food store auto shop paint company catering campany the money laundering group real estate business doctor group The airplane restoration company And in case you didnt know, the drug runners. There were premies working for that guy whats his name who -oh yeah, carlos leheder. VERY big and dangerous colombian cocaine guy, One of the 3 guys who headed up the medillian, columbia cartel. They also spent time with the guy in his hangout in one of the more obscure bahama islands. One time they were in colubia and a guy put a gun to one of thier heads and said 'goodbye gringo' and that premie said in spanish, 'brother, I am not a gringo, I am an an argentinian.' and the guy said 'if you hadn't said that you would have been dead in one more second'. They asked me to join up because I was a pilot. I said I would think about it and just stayed away from them. One time previous they had to dump thier stuff out of the plane in the ocean because they stupidly ran out of fuel. Like john denver I suppose. He ran out of gas, in both tanks, then was looking at his gas gauge in disbelief and pulled the plane up into a stall, and a short spin into the water. No excuse for that kind of flying. Some people always have good flights when they travel. I always seem to get southern pilots; Ladies and genemins, this is your pilot Leroy Jenkins speaking, we are on jet flight 509, er, whats that John? This isn't a jet? Uh, well, anyway we are on route to uh, er, Can you make that out John? Anyway, If you folks look out your right window, You see those trees all busted up over there? see that propeller all twisted up, the wheel all that stuff all busted up? John, were you with me on that flight?
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Date: Mon, Dec 29, 1997 at 06:17:54 (EST)
Poster: Mr Ex
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: The Businesses
Message:
Hi JW, Amtext Inc. is definitely incorporated NSA : I don� know, should be easy to find out I�m not enough into that kind of businesses to make research. You�ll very likely discover lots of details. Like : what are the links between Herbalife (multi-level marketing business) and Elan Vital / Mr PP Rawat ? Many premies, ex-instructors and CC have recently been involved in this Herbalife selling business. Maybe OP could tell us some more : a few days ago, she would say I was just blowing hot air, and now that some other people gave details she says these companies are perfectly clean .... etc. How come she has so much details when these private businesses have nothing to do with M nor Elan Vital ? Maybe she is involved in them too ? or her husband, or close friends ? Then why not say everything she knows ? I�m just curious .... I know it�s very embarrassing, I�ve been in the same situation a few years ago. I also recall plenty of details : there are very likely hundreds of premies working as slaves for NSA and Amtext. Why ? I know quite some of them. Most of these unemployed guys live on government helps and work day and night unpaid for NSA and/or Amtext. This is TOTALLY ILLEGAL. There are of course some guys (main retailers) who get paid and run official businesses, I would say 10% of the workers. This is nothing new. Any premie who has been involved enough in EV is perfectly aware of this. As far as I�m concerned, I�ve been involved in many meetings where these issues have been discussed in depth. Even with m�s lawyers. I tell you it�s one of their nightmares. Many CC are very aware of the dangers involved here for m and EV, but as they are managed by PAM, i.e. with m�s �agya�, there is not much they can do, beside hiding as much as they can, and taking care of the weird avatars ..... and have a �good� PR policy. They�ve been working a lot on this these days. >And Mr. Ex or anyone else, if you have information about >how the money flows from these organizations to M, I would >be all ears. I would bet a complicated corporate scheme has >been set up to hide where the money actually goes. I recall > that with the Boeing 707, they tried to set up a corporate >structure to hide who the plane actually belonged to, but it >was fairly lame and superficial and a court would 'pierce that >veil' without much trouble. Same thing now : these guys are really naive idiots, and they strongly believe that �grace� is protecting this. As I said above, about 10% of the workers are legal, could be much less. Most of the profits are not official either, and given in cash to m, or by individuals through the �new� bank donation system. My feeling is that any careful audit of NSA and/or Amtext would mean the end of the system. >And what about the grocery stores? Very likely not enough profit to be dealed like those above. >And what about the pay and benefits of the people who >work in those companies? And when you say premies are >'encouraged' to work in those businesses, what do you mean? Most of the people working there are unemployed, or have another job. Encouraged : when Mr Yorum Weisz comes and has a meeting with �participating� premies, he usually mentions these �special projects�. Details of these are never discussed in public, only with involved premies. If you want to participate, you�ll be told what to do, and that the profits are for m. Beautiful special made videos are shown during these �participation� meetings, featuring m flying his jet, or playing in one of his beautiful gardens, playing with some of his very costly gadgets, showing some details of his luxurious residences, etc. You obviously understand, because you�re not such an idiot, that all these gadgets are extremely expensive, and that you�re welcome to help buying and maintaining them. Very subtle suggestion .... Then you are so willing to help that you ask how, and you are introduced to so and so who is locally in charge of this, and you get involved in one of these businesses that will give you so much of these blissful service experience. You�ll feel so dedicated to your Lord, and you�ll get so much in return ...... you know all this BS.
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Date: Tues, Dec 30, 1997 at 13:26:40 (EST)
Poster: John K.
Email: 007
To: busted
Subject: Re: The Businesses
Message:
Amazing, all those businesses you listed, and the THREE that I was involved with you did not mention. I guess our secrecy really worked. The tofu company? The best tofu I ever had was in Miami.
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Date: Tues, Dec 30, 1997 at 14:35:37 (EST)
Poster: JW to John K
Email:
To: John K.
Subject: Re: The Businesses
Message:
Amazing, all those businesses you listed, and the THREE that I was involved with you did not mention. I guess our secrecy really worked. The tofu company? The best tofu I ever had was in Miami. Oh yes, I forgot about the tofu business. But as a result, in Miami we ate tofu about every night. I did get to like that tofu dish that tasted like breaded fish and was served with tartar sauce. Remember that? I didn't mean the list of businesses to be exaustive, but some other business that come to mind are: DECA (formerly IMMCO) was "supposed" to be secret but really wasn't and I have some funny stories about that. There was also a car repair business that was so incompetent it folded. There was a construction company in Miami that made the guy in charge rich but eventually went bankrupt. There was an unpholstery business that also went belly-up. There was the Travel Lite (fromerly AITTA)travel agency that never contributed anything to M, but mainly enriched Joe Anctil and a few others, although they had a captive clientelle of thousands of premies for festivals. There was a home security business that I hired to wire-up the satsang hall in Miami, but we were neverthess got robbed several times after that. Businesses were never really the forte of premies. Eventually the slaves want to be free and that causes the business to have to compete like other businesses and then the slave-businesses lose the competetive edge they had. Do you recall these? I know I will think of more.
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Date: Tues, Dec 30, 1997 at 15:10:06 (EST)
Poster: John K
Email:
To: JW to John K
Subject: Re: The Businesses
Message:
Joe, actually I emailed you some information and I just realized I emailed it to joger@aol.com. I forgot the '02'. How EMBARASSING!! Anyway, the 3 I was in were the home and business security systems (Protech) the locksmith co. (Prolock) and the security guard company, I forget what that was called. The security system company had so much overhead, trucks, tools, supplies, that it was never very profitable. And I heard it went bankrupt within a year after I left. However, the guard company must have been profitable because the guards' labor was free (ashram premies) and no supplies other than uniforms. Who knows maybe it's still in business.
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Date: Fri, Dec 26, 1997 at 23:32:35 (EST)
Poster: A TRUE PRIMIE
Email: jjames@aol.com
To: Everyone
Subject: COWARDS
Message:
IT TAKES REAL COURAGE TO FOLLOW THE LORD OF THE UNIVERSE WHICH YOU ALL DON'T HAVE EXCEPT FOR MS MILI. IT TAKES PERSONAL STRENGTH TO DO KNOWLEDGE EVERYDAY AND NOT DOUBT, WHICH YOU ALL DON'T HAVE EXCEPT FOR MS MILI. THE ONLY FLAKE HERE IS YOU WITH ALL OF YOUR WHINING ABOUT HOW HARD YOU LIFE WAS 25 YEARS AGO AND HOW YOU SUFFERED. I PRACTICE KNOWLEDGE EVERY MOMENT WITHOUT DOUBT BECAUSE I KNOW WHAT I'VE FOUND TO BE TRUE AND PERFECT. WHEN SOMEONE OFFERS ME GRACE AND LOVE AND TRUE KINDNESS, I DON'T SLAP THEM IN THE FACE AND SAY OH I'VE SUFFERED FROM THAT GRACE AND LOVE. YOUR RIGHT, YOU SHOULDN'T BOW YOUR HEADS AND ASK FOR FORGIVENESS. YOUR NOT WORTHY ENOUGH TO ASK FOR GURU MAHARAJIS FORGIVENESS. I PUT MY NAME ON THE LINE AND I'M NOT AFRAID TO USE MY REAL NAME AS SO MANY OF YOU COWARDS ARE AFRAID. GET A SPINAL COLUMN! AND FINALLY, MIKE I KNOW THAT I'M YELLING BECAUSE I BELIEVE THAT ALL OF YOU EXCEPT FOR MS MILI ARE DEAF AS WELL AS DUMB!
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Date: Fri, Dec 26, 1997 at 23:35:01 (EST)
Poster: John K.
Email:
To: A TRUE PRIMIE
Subject: Re: COWARDS
Message:
Ah, there's nothing like some good comic relief!
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Date: Fri, Dec 26, 1997 at 23:44:07 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: A TRUE PRIMIE
Subject: Re: COWARDS
Message:
Jim, this is YOU, right? This post isn't for real, is it? But maybe it is. If it is, I think it should be posted permanently on the website for all to see at all times. And you got a fan here, "Ms. Milli."
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Date: Sat, Dec 27, 1997 at 01:10:38 (EST)
Poster: Sir David
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: A TRUE PRIMIE
Subject: Re: COWARDS
Message:
A True Primie wrote, "IT TAKES PERSONAL STRENGTH TO DO KNOWLEDGE EVERYDAY" So you're obviously not one of the weary and the weak then.
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Date: Sat, Dec 27, 1997 at 04:31:10 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: A TRUE PRIMIE
Subject: Re: COWARDS
Message:
IT TAKES REAL COURAGE TO FOLLOW THE LORD OF THE UNIVERSE WHICH YOU ALL DON'T HAVE EXCEPT FOR MS MILI. IT TAKES PERSONAL STRENGTH TO DO KNOWLEDGE EVERYDAY AND NOT DOUBT, WHICH YOU ALL DON'T HAVE EXCEPT FOR MS MILI. THE ONLY FLAKE HERE IS YOU WITH ALL OF YOUR WHINING ABOUT HOW HARD YOU LIFE WAS 25 YEARS AGO AND HOW YOU SUFFERED. I PRACTICE KNOWLEDGE EVERY MOMENT WITHOUT DOUBT BECAUSE I KNOW WHAT I'VE FOUND TO BE TRUE AND PERFECT. WHEN SOMEONE OFFERS ME GRACE AND LOVE AND TRUE KINDNESS, I DON'T SLAP THEM IN THE FACE AND SAY OH I'VE SUFFERED FROM THAT GRACE AND LOVE. YOUR RIGHT, YOU SHOULDN'T BOW YOUR HEADS AND ASK FOR FORGIVENESS. YOUR NOT WORTHY ENOUGH TO ASK FOR GURU MAHARAJIS FORGIVENESS. I PUT MY NAME ON THE LINE AND I'M NOT AFRAID TO USE MY REAL NAME AS SO MANY OF YOU COWARDS ARE AFRAID. GET A SPINAL COLUMN! AND FINALLY, MIKE I KNOW THAT I'M YELLING BECAUSE I BELIEVE THAT ALL OF YOU EXCEPT FOR MS MILI ARE DEAF AS WELL AS DUMB! Err.., I agree with all of the above, except that I am a Mr, and not a Ms. ;=) - Mili
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Date: Sat, Dec 27, 1997 at 07:21:53 (EST)
Poster: Sir David
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: Ms Mili
Subject: Re: COWARDS
Message:
Come out of the closet Mili. It's nothing to be ashamed of. Lots of men like to cross dress and I think your Ms Mili persona looks absolutely divine darling. 8
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Date: Sat, Dec 27, 1997 at 08:08:37 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Sir David
Subject: Re: COWARDS
Message:
Come out of the closet Mili. It's nothing to be ashamed of. Lots of men like to cross dress and I think your Ms Mili persona looks absolutely divine darling. 8 Aw, David, come off of it. I don't cross-dress. I buy a pair of Levis and wear them till they fall apart. (Maybe M has a part of the Levis business, too?) I can see that you have a real thing going for Jim, though. Old ashram mates, right?
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Date: Sat, Dec 27, 1997 at 09:19:54 (EST)
Poster: Sir David
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: Mili
Subject: Re: COWARDS
Message:
No, you've got better legs than Jim. That sequined mini dress just doesn't suit him.
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Date: Sat, Dec 27, 1997 at 09:42:02 (EST)
Poster: Mike
Email: bigguy32@juno.com
To: A TRUE PRIMIE
Subject: Re: COWARDS
Message:
IT TAKES REAL COURAGE TO FOLLOW THE LORD OF THE UNIVERSE WHICH YOU ALL DON'T HAVE EXCEPT FOR MS MILI. IT TAKES PERSONAL STRENGTH TO DO KNOWLEDGE EVERYDAY AND NOT DOUBT, WHICH YOU ALL DON'T HAVE EXCEPT FOR MS MILI. THE ONLY FLAKE HERE IS YOU WITH ALL OF YOUR WHINING ABOUT HOW HARD YOU LIFE WAS 25 YEARS AGO AND HOW YOU SUFFERED. I PRACTICE KNOWLEDGE EVERY MOMENT WITHOUT DOUBT BECAUSE I KNOW WHAT I'VE FOUND TO BE TRUE AND PERFECT. WHEN SOMEONE OFFERS ME GRACE AND LOVE AND TRUE KINDNESS, I DON'T SLAP THEM IN THE FACE AND SAY OH I'VE SUFFERED FROM THAT GRACE AND LOVE. YOUR RIGHT, YOU SHOULDN'T BOW YOUR HEADS AND ASK FOR FORGIVENESS. YOUR NOT WORTHY ENOUGH TO ASK FOR GURU MAHARAJIS FORGIVENESS. I PUT MY NAME ON THE LINE AND I'M NOT AFRAID TO USE MY REAL NAME AS SO MANY OF YOU COWARDS ARE AFRAID. GET A SPINAL COLUMN! AND FINALLY, MIKE I KNOW THAT I'M YELLING BECAUSE I BELIEVE THAT ALL OF YOU EXCEPT FOR MS MILI ARE DEAF AS WELL AS DUMB! This has got to be a joke right? Even religious zelots are bit more tame than you jjames. If it's not a joke then I think that you are heading for a big fall when the wind falls out of your sails. Who are you trying to convence us or yourself? I know what I believe and I don't have to yell it to make it so. You remind me of a little kid who screams everything to get their way. Grow up and try to interact as an adult.
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Date: Sat, Dec 27, 1997 at 11:11:12 (EST)
Poster: JohnCavad (Investigator)
Email:
To: A TRUE PRIMIE
Subject: Re: COWARDS
Message:
To all ex premies: I had already revealed who this little boy is in another posting. I wrote: "Dear Jim Danna, We know up in Oregon there are a lot of people like you having faith in such things as the Unitarian Universalist Church. " I guess it is Jim?
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Date: Sat, Dec 27, 1997 at 14:40:34 (EST)
Poster: Ms
Email: 666666666666666666666
To: A TRUE PRIMIE
Subject: Mili (Re: COWARDS)
Message:
well ms mili. you should send the saint packing. do you think it's anon like I do?
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Date: Sat, Dec 27, 1997 at 15:36:55 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: COWARDS
Message:
Joe, Not me. 'Anonymousee' is the only role I've ever played here (then someone else -- probably Burke -- took it over at one point). No, this is too rich for my blood. Like Christmas cake.
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Date: Fri, Dec 26, 1997 at 22:50:53 (EST)
Poster: bftb
Email:
To: Everyone
Subject: Forum Benefits
Message:
During the brief period that I was a 'practicing premie',I found that it was very difficult to discuss many of the issues raised here with other premies.For instance;if I would question financial matters,the response(if any)would often be sarcastic like"oh yeah,he's just raking it in"and the general vibe was 'don't ask so many questions that have nothing to do with knowledge'and that it was weird that I would even think half those things to begin with.I didn't think it was odd.At that time all my questions were coming from a place of trust in M and I really didn't suspect anything.I just wanted to know how things worked,that's all.My feeling was always"well I hope he takes in a billion a year for gods sake because he needs it to do what he does......as long as I can see the books;well then,i've got no problem with that" Well,as we all know by now,I(we)never did get to see the books.Not only did I not see the books;I couldn't even find another premie who gave a shit. O.k,I know it's only money but it was like that with everything.All my questions,issues...if they didn't somehow fit the package they were left on the floor.That bugged me. That's why I like this site so much;all the issues are finally being discussed openly and freely.No invisible,unspoken,underlying pressure to conform.No tacit agreement to suppress(supposedly negative) thoughts. And if I may add;No biased editors feigning neutrality. The interesting thing though is that quite a few current premies also seem to enjoy this site.Many of them actually do seem to be trying to openly discuss all issues.And I wouldn't be surprised if many more premies are lurking repeatedly and not posting. Bottom line is that I find it refreshing to see so many premies and non premies alike finally discussing everything,no holds barred. As I've indicated above,it was my experience that most premies in the past seemed to find no benefit in discussing so much of what is discussed here.My question to any current premies who post/lurk here is:How has/is this site benefiting you?
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Date: Fri, Dec 26, 1997 at 20:48:55 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email: Anthony Robbins
To: Everyone
Subject: Welcome new 'current premie' [repos
Message:
Here's a welcome I posted below to current premie: Join the ranks of Maharaji apologists, dear current premie. Remember to hold Maharaji responsible for nothing, to think as little as a bird and to chirp as if you're actually trying to say something. In the end, it's not the words anyway, so who gives a fuck, right? My suggestion is that you discuss a little -- or discuss why you can't be bothered to -- in equal bits until you figure out what style suits you best. Twisted logic is fun but you've really got to play at it for a while before it comes as easy as OP makes it look. (Mind you, I'm not trying to discourage anyone from pursuing this art. After all, practise does make perfect and, as OP herself proves, if you pull and prod your mind long enough it will start to stretch like warm taffy.) On the other hand, you might prefer feigning being a simpleton. Chris, if you're reading this am I right to assume you'll help this guy or girl out if they get stuck? Current premie, you don't have to worry about any other skills, education or credentials you might have which would undermine your role. The more you wave them about the more it seems to help somehow. We all know it's just a play anyway. After all, NO ONE can really be as clueless as Chris makes out. Further pluses include a certain 'rain man'-like charm and the right to post short non-sequiters galore. Hey, why not send us a picture of you having fun in a tie? On the other hand, maybe you just want to be a boor. Well, an on-again-off-again boor. Ham-fisted, you know? This role's easy in htat it never varies and, I have to admit, it looks kind of fun. Mili's not the only one but, hey, why not learn from a pro? Here, too, you don't have to worry about any glaring inconsistencies between the role's limitations and your more fully developed mind and responsibilities. It's all just a game. Welcome aboard!
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Date: Sat, Dec 27, 1997 at 04:46:31 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Welcome new 'current premie' [repos
Message:
Jim wrote: (blah, blah, blather, blah) It's all just a game. I see that you like it better than playing with your jelly beans, Jim dear.
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Date: Sat, Dec 27, 1997 at 07:31:42 (EST)
Poster: current premie
Email:
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Welcome new 'current premie' [repos
Message:
Here's a welcome I posted below to current premie: Join the ranks of Maharaji apologists, dear current premie. Remember to hold Maharaji responsible for nothing, to think as little as a bird and to chirp as if you're actually trying to say something. In the end, it's not the words anyway, so who gives a fuck, right? My suggestion is that you discuss a little -- or discuss why you can't be bothered to -- in equal bits until you figure out what style suits you best. Twisted logic is fun but you've really got to play at it for a while before it comes as easy as OP makes it look. (Mind you, I'm not trying to discourage anyone from pursuing this art. After all, practise does make perfect and, as OP herself proves, if you pull and prod your mind long enough it will start to stretch like warm taffy.) On the other hand, you might prefer feigning being a simpleton. Chris, if you're reading this am I right to assume you'll help this guy or girl out if they get stuck? Current premie, you don't have to worry about any other skills, education or credentials you might have which would undermine your role. The more you wave them about the more it seems to help somehow. We all know it's just a play anyway. After all, NO ONE can really be as clueless as Chris makes out. Further pluses include a certain 'rain man'-like charm and the right to post short non-sequiters galore. Hey, why not send us a picture of you having fun in a tie? On the other hand, maybe you just want to be a boor. Well, an on-again-off-again boor. Ham-fisted, you know? This role's easy in htat it never varies and, I have to admit, it looks kind of fun. Mili's not the only one but, hey, why not learn from a pro? Here, too, you don't have to worry about any glaring inconsistencies between the role's limitations and your more fully developed mind and responsibilities. It's all just a game. Welcome aboard! as posted previously, I'm Pat Strong and I'm otta here. Thanks for the warm welcome and making it clear how this works.
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Date: Sat, Dec 27, 1997 at 11:40:14 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: current premie
Subject: Re: Welcome new 'current premie' [repos
Message:
as posted previously, I'm Pat Strong and I'm otta here. Thanks for the warm welcome and making it clear how this works. Dear Pat - Jim's "welcome" was not how all the ex-premies on the forum feel. It's how JIM feels, and although I like Jim very much, I do disagree with many of the things he said in his post. You're probably already outa here, but if not, I'd like to make it clear that you really are welcome to keep posting, if you want to. Katie
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Date: Sat, Dec 27, 1997 at 15:49:03 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: Katie
Subject: Re: Welcome new 'current premie' [repos
Message:
Dear Pat, I am so sorry for suggesting anything untoward. Please, I'm gone for the next couple of months anyway in a few days. Please, disregard everything I said. After all, my nasty fix on premie apologists could be completely wrong. Just one man's opinion, after all. One little man's opinion. Besides, you may find a new way to defend Maharaji. Why not take a shot at it? Really, Pat, where else can you go? Maharaji's suggested his lovers submit to an internet blackout as far as he's concerned, and no one wants to hear your thoughts or opinions in satsang, such as it is. Where else can you go? Please, stay. Join the aquarium.
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Date: Sat, Dec 27, 1997 at 17:29:50 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Welcome new 'current premie' [repos
Message:
Jim, I really don't like to fight with you in public, but here goes: what did "current premie" say that was so awful? I would like more people to post on here, not less. This includes premies, as long as they are reasonably civil, which "current premie" (Pat) was. How do you feel about this? Regards, Katie
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Date: Sat, Dec 27, 1997 at 18:10:14 (EST)
Poster: pat
Email:
To: Katie
Subject: Re: Welcome new 'current premie' [repos
Message:
as posted previously, I'm Pat Strong and I'm otta here. Thanks for the warm welcome and making it clear how this works. Dear Pat - Jim's 'welcome' was not how all the ex-premies on the forum feel. It's how JIM feels, and although I like Jim very much, I do disagree with many of the things he said in his post. You're probably already outa here, but if not, I'd like to make it clear that you really are welcome to keep posting, if you want to. Katie I'm not quite gone as this internet sturff is new to me. Thank you for your kind words and it's sometimes interesting to read those that's stopped practicing's experience. though, so much focus on the money just does not interest me. In my life I've served for comparatively small wages many of some of the very rich. M's wealth (even the wildest claims I've heard) is peanuts for how hard he works and the service to others he provides. M is not for everyone. Maybe you've all just evolved beyond the need for practising. One thing is apparent. I'm very glad that I was married and never lived in the ashrm (my husband was aghast when I suggested it). Many ex and current premies had alot of anger and bitterness to recover from. He surely did the right thing in closing them all. So much has changed for me since I was 20 ( 27 ys. ago), and on reflection, practising Knowledge has benefitted me greatly. I treasure it more now than ever and could not imagine that the quality of my living would improve by not meditating. I have tested this theory, unfortunately.
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Date: Sat, Dec 27, 1997 at 18:14:25 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: Katie
Subject: Re: Welcome new 'current premie' [repos
Message:
I can't even remember. Okay.... I'll go find it. (By the way, is there some way to get more than the latest fifty messages all the time?) Okay, I'm not even sure which one it was now. One 'current premie' wrote: 'I have never felt forced to do anything. I continue to come and go as I please. I don't give any money and I still get the benefits.' Another 'current premie' wrote: 'Several of my former and current friends did and some of them are very bitter, while others continue to enjoy Knowledge. All however needed to go through a recovery period from the ashram life. Seems Maharaji did the right thing to close them down. I don't mean to imply that your negative ( or should I say insane?) experiences werre strictly due to the ashram. This whole area of inner experience is individual and I do not feel bamboozled by Maharaji at all. It is a two way street, just as so many other things in my life.' So, having done this ex thing for a while now I cut to the chase. Neither of these people are ever going to blame maharaji for anything. Why do I say that? Because both have read more than enough here to put them on notice that maharaji, in case they never thought of it before, exploited people beyond imagination, financially and otherwise, for years. Neither gives a hoot. Fine. I say 'fuck 'em.' Now, don't get me wrong. I, too, would love them to keep posting. Post on and on. Why not? It's all fun, right? But don't tell me for a second, Katie, that you expect any real thought or discussion from them. You don't, do you? So, I'm just cutting to the chase, telling one of them -- does it even matter which? -- that there are several models of dishonesty to follow here. Make them feel comfortable, you know.
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Date: Sat, Dec 27, 1997 at 18:25:53 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: pat
Subject: Re: Welcome new 'current premie' [repos
Message:
Pat, You say: 'M's wealth (even the wildest claims I've heard) is peanuts for how hard he works and the service to others he provides. M is not for everyone. Maybe you've all just evolved beyond the need for practising. One thing is apparent. I'm very glad that I was married and never lived in the ashrm (my husband was aghast when I suggested it).' 1) Just how hard does m work? How do you know? Does he work as hard as one of the clerks down the hill at the Trancas Grocery or whatever it's called? Is he the hardest working man in the world? Does he ever get even the slightest time to relax? Does he ever indulge in even the slightest luxury to make his spartan life bearable? How do you know? How much money do you think he spends on his mistress? His children? His dogs? His wife? None of your business? 2) Does it matter at all how maharaji gets his money? No? Yes? Is that what you'd teach your children? 3)You're quite disinguous when you suggest that we've grown beyond the need for knowledge, aren't you? What do you really think? Do you think we've abandoned the one and only? If so, how can you be so dishonest? Is it just a little easier to get along like that? What do you think knowledge is all about anyways? Is it something only for capricorns and eastcoasters? Anything universal about it? Care to be honest? Yes? No? 3)Tell me more about how lucky you were to escape maharaji's 'shelter.' Why did you want to move in the first place? What did you think then? Can you be honest with yourself about that? How did your husband talk you out of it? Was he a good premie? Were you? Who was better? Anyway, it's not your fight, this whole ashram thing, is it? 5) Know any good recipes? All contributions welcome.
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Date: Sat, Dec 27, 1997 at 19:59:59 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Welcome new 'current premie' [repos
Message:
I can't even remember. Okay.... I'll go find it. (By the way, is there some way to get more than the latest fifty messages all the time?) Okay, I'm not even sure which one it was now. One 'current premie' wrote: 'I have never felt forced to do anything. I continue to come and go as I please. I don't give any money and I still get the benefits.' Another 'current premie' wrote: 'Several of my former and current friends did and some of them are very bitter, while others continue to enjoy Knowledge. All however needed to go through a recovery period from the ashram life. Seems Maharaji did the right thing to close them down. I don't mean to imply that your negative ( or should I say insane?) experiences werre strictly due to the ashram. This whole area of inner experience is individual and I do not feel bamboozled by Maharaji at all. It is a two way street, just as so many other things in my life.' So, having done this ex thing for a while now I cut to the chase. Neither of these people are ever going to blame maharaji for anything. Why do I say that? Because both have read more than enough here to put them on notice that maharaji, in case they never thought of it before, exploited people beyond imagination, financially and otherwise, for years. Neither gives a hoot. Fine. I say 'fuck 'em.' Now, don't get me wrong. I, too, would love them to keep posting. Post on and on. Why not? It's all fun, right? But don't tell me for a second, Katie, that you expect any real thought or discussion from them. You don't, do you? So, I'm just cutting to the chase, telling one of them -- does it even matter which? -- that there are several models of dishonesty to follow here. Make them feel comfortable, you know. Hi Jim - First, the way to get more than the latest fifty messages is to get onto the forum, get ALL the messages, and then bookmark that, and call it up when you want to read the forum. That file is really big right now, by the way, and takes a long time to load. Second, you can call me an naive idiot (and probably will), but I do think that some current premies are capable of real thought or discussion. Also, I don't like the "does it matter which [premie it is]?" argument. That is what some of the premies say about US (the ex-premies), when making arguments, and I don't like it then either. I am not you, or JW, or Brian, or Bobby, or John C. or John K. or Burke, or David, or Mike, or Mickey the Pharisee (love that name), and so on and so forth. I don't like being treated as an interchangeable part by premies, so I would guess that current premies don't like to be treated that way by me either. Regards from Katie
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Date: Sat, Dec 27, 1997 at 20:27:08 (EST)
Poster: John K.
Email: voice@reason.com
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Welcome new 'current premie' [repos
Message:
you wrote: "Neither of these people are ever going to blame maharaji for anything" You know Jim , it almost sounds like you think you know EVERYTHING. But weren't YOU just like this premie for 8 years? Something made you change, right? Well, why can't something make this premie change too? Not that I think this forum should exist to convert p's to x's. But apparently you do since that is your reason for blowing them off - ah, it don't matter cause they weren't gonna change anyway. Most people are attracted to honey not vinegar. Or whatever the hell that saying is. As mili says this is his religion. All religious beliefs when analyzed objectively are very strange, yet who is going to argue against anyone's right to believe in their religion? Actually I don't believe this IS a religion, I believe it's a personality cult, but I am getting off the subject. All I'm saying is that it's my opinion that not much is accomplished by being so antagonistic.
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Date: Sat, Dec 27, 1997 at 21:58:22 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: Katie
Subject: Re: Welcome new 'current premie' [repos
Message:
Thanks for the info about the page. Now that's 'news you can use.' I agree that everyone's different in their own way. I also think we're all special. (But that's such a cherished thought I'm not about to share it here and see it trampelled by the callous and thoughtless you-know-who's). I'm certainly not about to make the point that they all sound like they're reading from the same revisionist song book. That point's been made so often by better men than me. I just got confused between 'current premie' and 'another current premie'. That's all. Don't these guys have middle initials or something?
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Date: Sat, Dec 27, 1997 at 22:13:35 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: John K.
Subject: Re: Welcome new 'current premie' [repos
Message:
First, I think this forum is inescapably about 'conversion' to the extent that both ex's and premies participate. If Judas and the faithful ones got together, what else would they be doing? Second, you're right. I do seem like a know-it-all when I jump to the conclusion that these premies, like all the others I've chit chatted with over the last few years, won't really reason about maharaji. Maybe I'm wrong. I'm just guessing based on experience. I'm more than willing to be proven wrong, but I can't help but rely on my experience to date. Isn't that how it all goes? And it's not as if these are just two randomly selected premies I've arbitrarily pigeonholed. These are two new voices who, like I said, have already read all this stuff about maharaji they couldn't possibly have really known before -- from Mishler, to Mr. Ex, to all the Ex's experiences, to the evasive arguments of the other premies, to the financial disclosure -- and they're unabashedly unfazed. I say, if it's a bug, they got it. True, I left maharaji. But I'll tell you something else -- I never ignored the kind of info with which these guys have been presented. Well, to be honest about it, I never had the chance. It never came up. (True, I'd heard or read the Mishler interview years ago but that was just one piece. All the same, I have to wonder why I didn't follow up on it. Then again, how could I? There was no mechanism. Whew! Off the hook!) Sure, maybe I jumped the gun. But you tell me, how much does it take before YOU figure out you're talking to a mind impervious to reason?
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Date: Sun, Dec 28, 1997 at 01:37:40 (EST)
Poster: op
Email:
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Welcome new 'current premie' [repos
Message:
Dear Jim: What's 4? Happy New Year!
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Date: Sun, Dec 28, 1997 at 04:06:47 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Welcome new 'current premie' [repos
Message:
Jim, it's so obvious: - The' ex-premie' website is heavily biased and repressive, as corroborated by all the modern witch-hunt links and references. Massive, irresponsible utilisation of rumors, hearsay, and demeaning qualifications are evident. There is an editorial selection of including testimonies only of people who conform to the general biased slant. - There is every possiblity that Mishler's 'interview' is a construct, a fabrication or at best, a distortion of the reality, if only due to the fact that it was just one person's subjective view that is subject to personal motives. Other people had completely different stories to tell at the time! (Remember the Bill Patterson interview - why isn't it included in the ex-premie website, then? It is also an eyewitness story of a person who was as close to M as Mishler was.) - Mr.Ex has yet to produce substantial evidence for his paranoid vacuuous little mystery mongering. - Amazing sociological similarities exist between this repressive attitude and the motives of the people who tried to supress religious reform movements or new religions, witness: the early Christians in the Roman Empire, Protestants in Europe, Buddhists vs. orthodox Hindus, Persian orthodox vs. early Muslims, etc. I could make this list longer. See my point? Or am I in for another dose of mind-fuck that you are so good at?
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Date: Sun, Dec 28, 1997 at 09:17:40 (EST)
Poster: Pat
Email:
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Welcome new 'current premie' [repos
Message:
Pat, You say: 'M's wealth (even the wildest claims I've heard) is peanuts for how hard he works and the service to others he provides. M is not for everyone. Maybe you've all just evolved beyond the need for practising. One thing is apparent. I'm very glad that I was married and never lived in the ashrm (my husband was aghast when I suggested it).' 1) Just how hard does m work? How do you know? Does he work as hard as one of the clerks down the hill at the Trancas Grocery or whatever it's called? Is he the hardest working man in the world? Does he ever get even the slightest time to relax? Does he ever indulge in even the slightest luxury to make his spartan life bearable? How do you know? How much money do you think he spends on his mistress? His children? His dogs? His wife? None of your business? 2) Does it matter at all how maharaji gets his money? No? Yes? Is that what you'd teach your children? 3)You're quite disinguous when you suggest that we've grown beyond the need for knowledge, aren't you? What do you really think? Do you think we've abandoned the one and only? If so, how can you be so dishonest? Is it just a little easier to get along like that? What do you think knowledge is all about anyways? Is it something only for capricorns and eastcoasters? Anything universal about it? Care to be honest? Yes? No? 3)Tell me more about how lucky you were to escape maharaji's 'shelter.' Why did you want to move in the first place? What did you think then? Can you be honest with yourself about that? How did your husband talk you out of it? Was he a good premie? Were you? Who was better? Anyway, it's not your fight, this whole ashram thing, is it? 5) Know any good recipes? All contributions welcome. 1) having had atraveling job for 20 yrs. , his schedule looks very challenging to me.As for the rest of this item, I don't know. 2) Except for 70's ashram premies, I have never personally felt pressured to give money. 3)Yes, I'm trying as hard as I can to be honest. I am sincere that my thought process has brought me to a conclusion that I have needs that not everyone does. Someone wrote about the early zealousness and ego mania and I was there and I have and continue to try to make amends for this irrational and unkind behavior. For me to think that I had some kind of inside track on a God that was not available to anyone else except by "my" way just repeated the same insane religious pattern I had rejected in my early teens. It was innocent enough at the time as I had not experienced such a depth of contnentment to date. 4) No, I have no fight and it was a short conversation as I took my maarital relationship seriously and still do. 5)Many, but there must be other more appropriate websites for this.
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Date: Sun, Dec 28, 1997 at 10:43:33 (EST)
Poster: Brian
Email:
To: Pat
Subject: Re: Welcome new 'current premie' [repos
Message:
Pat - Aside from being asked 4 questions and answering 5 (a trick in itself), I can't see any relationship between the question asked and response to question number 2. Q: 2) Does it matter at all how maharaji gets his money? No? Yes? Is that what you'd teach your children? A: 2) Except for 70's ashram premies, I have never personally felt pressured to give money. From what I've seen in the past, the premies who post here do so in an attempt to justify or defend MJ to those who might be influenced by the ex-premies who set-up and post to this site. Are you here for some other reason? This is a non-answer to the question posed, and I can understand Jim's calling you "disengenuous". I'm struggling to keep from re-phrasing the question as I'm not sure you would address it any more directly than you already haven't. But what the hell, I'm a slow learner. Aside from whatever benefit that you may personally have gained from receiving Knowledge, do you have any problem with MJ having solicited funds for his 707 by telling premies that the money was going towards a world tour? Would you call this behavior "lying"? Is this something that you can rationalize or defend? Because, that is what he has done in the past. Do you think that was a mistake on his part, and that he has changed? That his opulent lifestyle isn't being paid for by premies believing that they are contributing to promoting the spreading of Knowledge to the entire world when they purchase his videos, when actually he is diverting those funds into his own personal use? How many mansions has your company supplied for your personal use during your 20 years of traveling? How large is your personal fleet of expensive cars? Is your company composed of employees who are prospering, or are you poorly-paid peons who contribute your services freely out of love for your employer? Is your boss accountable to anyone? While you may have left those other religions behind, don't you think that someone is being held accountable for what happens to the contents of the offering plate that is being passed around during services? Should it all go toward the enriching of the minister? How many mansions should he own? How many Rolls Royces? Are personal jets supplied to those who labor under heavy missionary schedules? The bottom line is that premies will excuse great excesses by MJ as long as they can hang onto their pretenses of his divinity, and continue to swim around life's hard questions. Hence, the "unfair" aquarium analogy. While premies are not being discouraged from posting here by anyone other than MJ, don't expect people who can't swallow MJ as Perfect Master to be able to swallow evasion as response. It may make for a comfortable lifestyle and religion, but it doesn't come close to passing for communication.
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Date: Sun, Dec 28, 1997 at 11:03:27 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Brian
Subject: Re: Welcome new 'current premie' [repos
Message:
That his opulent lifestyle isn't being paid for by premies believing that they are contributing to promoting the spreading of Knowledge to the entire world when they purchase his videos, when actually he is diverting those funds into his own personal use? How many mansions has your company supplied for your personal use during your 20 years of traveling? How large is your personal fleet of expensive cars? Is your company composed of employees who are prospering, or are you poorly-paid peons who contribute your services freely out of love for your employer? Is your boss accountable to anyone? While you may have left those other religions behind, don't you think that someone is being held accountable for what happens to the contents of the offering plate that is being passed around during services? Should it all go toward the enriching of the minister? How many mansions should he own? How many Rolls Royces? Are personal jets supplied to those who labor under heavy missionary schedules? The bottom line is that premies will excuse great excesses by MJ as long as they can hang onto their pretenses of his divinity, and continue to swim around life's hard questions. Hence, the 'unfair' aquarium analogy. While premies are not being discouraged from posting here by anyone other than MJ, don't expect people who can't swallow MJ as Perfect Master to be able to swallow evasion as response. It may make for a comfortable lifestyle and religion, but it doesn't come close to passing for communication. Brian, again, you are basing these accusations on unreliable, to say the least, information. In fact, you are misinforming people. That's pretty irresponsible, m'boy, and it puts you in a legally most precarious situation.
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Date: Sun, Dec 28, 1997 at 11:33:14 (EST)
Poster: Pat
Email:
To: Brian
Subject: Re: Welcome new 'current premie' [repos
Message:
Pat - Aside from being asked 4 questions and answering 5 (a trick in itself), I can't see any relationship between the question asked and response to question number 2. Q: 2) Does it matter at all how maharaji gets his money? No? Yes? Is that what you'd teach your children? A: 2) Except for 70's ashram premies, I have never personally felt pressured to give money. From what I've seen in the past, the premies who post here do so in an attempt to justify or defend MJ to those who might be influenced by the ex-premies who set-up and post to this site. Are you here for some other reason? This is a non-answer to the question posed, and I can understand Jim's calling you 'disengenuous'. I'm struggling to keep from re-phrasing the question as I'm not sure you would address it any more directly than you already haven't. But what the hell, I'm a slow learner. Aside from whatever benefit that you may personally have gained from receiving Knowledge, do you have any problem with MJ having solicited funds for his 707 by telling premies that the money was going towards a world tour? Would you call this behavior 'lying'? Is this something that you can rationalize or defend? Because, that is what he has done in the past. Do you think that was a mistake on his part, and that he has changed? That his opulent lifestyle isn't being paid for by premies believing that they are contributing to promoting the spreading of Knowledge to the entire world when they purchase his videos, when actually he is diverting those funds into his own personal use? How many mansions has your company supplied for your personal use during your 20 years of traveling? How large is your personal fleet of expensive cars? Is your company composed of employees who are prospering, or are you poorly-paid peons who contribute your services freely out of love for your employer? Is your boss accountable to anyone? While you may have left those other religions behind, don't you think that someone is being held accountable for what happens to the contents of the offering plate that is being passed around during services? Should it all go toward the enriching of the minister? How many mansions should he own? How many Rolls Royces? Are personal jets supplied to those who labor under heavy missionary schedules? The bottom line is that premies will excuse great excesses by MJ as long as they can hang onto their pretenses of his divinity, and continue to swim around life's hard questions. Hence, the 'unfair' aquarium analogy. While premies are not being discouraged from posting here by anyone other than MJ, don't expect people who can't swallow MJ as Perfect Master to be able to swallow evasion as response. It may make for a comfortable lifestyle and religion, but it doesn't come close to passing for communication. There were 5 questions. I am not trying to be evasive;from your standpoint you'd just sum me up as naive and stupid. I have stayed with this site for a few days 1) because this internet stuff is new to me and is addicting for me 2) I like to test my actions often against opposing viewpoints.However after receiving mostly negative and insulting feedback I wil finally stop this. By the way, for the second time, no one has discouraged posting on this website.
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Date: Sun, Dec 28, 1997 at 11:34:02 (EST)
Poster: Brian
Email:
To: Mili
Subject: Re: Welcome new 'current premie' [repos
Message:
That his opulent lifestyle isn't being paid for by premies believing that they are contributing to promoting the spreading of Knowledge to the entire world when they purchase his videos, when actually he is diverting those funds into his own personal use? How many mansions has your company supplied for your personal use during your 20 years of traveling? How large is your personal fleet of expensive cars? Is your company composed of employees who are prospering, or are you poorly-paid peons who contribute your services freely out of love for your employer? Is your boss accountable to anyone? While you may have left those other religions behind, don't you think that someone is being held accountable for what happens to the contents of the offering plate that is being passed around during services? Should it all go toward the enriching of the minister? How many mansions should he own? How many Rolls Royces? Are personal jets supplied to those who labor under heavy missionary schedules? The bottom line is that premies will excuse great excesses by MJ as long as they can hang onto their pretenses of his divinity, and continue to swim around life's hard questions. Hence, the 'unfair' aquarium analogy. While premies are not being discouraged from posting here by anyone other than MJ, don't expect people who can't swallow MJ as Perfect Master to be able to swallow evasion as response. It may make for a comfortable lifestyle and religion, but it doesn't come close to passing for communication. Brian, again, you are basing these accusations on unreliable, to say the least, information. In fact, you are misinforming people. That's pretty irresponsible, m'boy, and it puts you in a legally most precarious situation. Mili, if just one of your litigation fantasies ever came true then I would join you at the Lotus Feet of the con-artist formerly known as The Lord Of The Universe. I would apologize for inferring that MJ drives anything other than the family Buick station wagon. That he ever flies any way other than stand-by coach. That he lives is a modest house on Mulberry Street, surrounded by friendly middle-class neighbors who sometimes come over to borrow his lawnmower and exchange neighborhood small-talk over the clothesline. Ahh... I can really see why this fantasy of yours is so intoxicating. Kinda makes me want to be a paperboy in that little world. I could peddle my new Schwinn... my devoted cocker spaniel running alongside me...
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Date: Sun, Dec 28, 1997 at 12:01:27 (EST)
Poster: Brian
Email:
To: Pat
Subject: Re: Welcome new 'current premie' [repos
Message:
There were 5 questions. My browser isn't showing question number 4. But whatever. I am not trying to be evasive; from your standpoint you'd just sum me up as naive and stupid. I don't believe you are naive or stupid, and I haven't said you were. Those are your words. I heard them myself from others when I used to defend MJ. Perhaps I was both naive and stupid at the time, but most of the people who passed that judgement on me had their own areas of life that I considered a waste of time. Some had forced me for years to pay weekly homage to invisible Jesus, certain that he was coming back someday. I was naive and stupid (in their view) to have actually acted on those beliefs in this world by seeking him out. Granted, I got the wrong guy. But at least I looked. They never did. I have stayed with this site for a few days 1) because this internet stuff is new to me and is addicting for me There are others around like you. Not that I'm in any way addicted, you understand :) 2) I like to test my actions often against opposing viewpoints. However after receiving mostly negative and insulting feedback I will finally stop this. You may go freely. Rest assured that you can duck and weave with the best of them. Since MJ did away with premies giving satsang this is probably a good test forum for them. By the way, for the second time, no one has discouraged posting on this website. Had you posted to premie.com (premie.org) in the past and included your email address, then you might have had the same experience that I did. I was contacted by Booth somebody by email and by David Coyne by phone. David assured me that MJ didn't want premies (he was a bit confused as to my beliefs in this department) posting about Knowledge on the Internet. Since both Mili and OP also posted there using their email addresses, they might be able to confirm how widespread the effort was. They won't, of course. Since it was reported on this site by me that the effort was even taking place (and I was contacted in error), I would guess that the whole episode has been an embarrassment to MJ and been halted. Too bad. Meanwhile, premie.org has folded up its tent and premies have only this site left to voice their devotion to MJ. Yahoo and Altavista continue to steer searchers to ex-premie.org, where they are allowed to post freely and to learn what he wants kept quiet. Bet he just loves that. Don't worry, Pat. Someone else will take your place.
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Date: Sun, Dec 28, 1997 at 16:30:41 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: Mili
Subject: Re: Welcome new 'current premie' [repos
Message:
Jim, it's so obvious: - The' ex-premie' website is heavily biased and repressive, as corroborated by all the modern witch-hunt links and references. Massive, irresponsible utilisation of rumors, hearsay, and demeaning qualifications are evident. There is an editorial selection of including testimonies only of people who conform to the general biased slant. - There is every possiblity that Mishler's 'interview' is a construct, a fabrication or at best, a distortion of the reality, if only due to the fact that it was just one person's subjective view that is subject to personal motives. Other people had completely different stories to tell at the time! (Remember the Bill Patterson interview - why isn't it included in the ex-premie website, then? It is also an eyewitness story of a person who was as close to M as Mishler was.) - Mr.Ex has yet to produce substantial evidence for his paranoid vacuuous little mystery mongering. - Amazing sociological similarities exist between this repressive attitude and the motives of the people who tried to supress religious reform movements or new religions, witness: the early Christians in the Roman Empire, Protestants in Europe, Buddhists vs. orthodox Hindus, Persian orthodox vs. early Muslims, etc. I could make this list longer. See my point? Or am I in for another dose of mind-fuck that you are so good at? The latter. Mili, You think wierd. Look, I like you too. You're Mili, right? You're my bro'. we go back now -- what? -- a few years? But Mili, you don't think well. Back to the jelly beans. You keep saying 'hey, maybe the green jelly beans are really painted red ones'. Yes, Mili, for the MILLIONTH time, you're right: MAYBE Mishler was wrong. Got that, for Christ's sake? You're absolutely right, excellent point, it sure as hell is possible that Mishler, for whatever reason, was wrong. (It's notpossible that the interview is fake or the transcript innacurate, not to me anyway, because I've got a copy of the tape). Okay? Can we move on now? Alright.....now....Mili, don't be so timid. Come right out on this little limb here and speculate with me: what if -- that's right -- what if (just for a moment. Come on, big guy, you can do it) -- what if Mishler's not lying or mistaken? Huh? (By the way, "utilize" is a bullshit word. What does it say that "use" doesn't? And "utilization" -- irregardless of how you spell it -- is worse!) As for 'witchhunt': oh Mili, put on your thinking cap. The inquisition was all about fake questions, no chance to answer, no reasno and superstition. In striking contrast, some disgruntled ex-followers of Porky the Teenage Lord of the Universe, try to ask him some questions. Like 'what the fuck was that about?' for example. He stonewalls. End of story. Mili, you don't think well.
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Date: Sun, Dec 28, 1997 at 16:35:31 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: op
Subject: Re: Welcome new 'current premie' [repos
Message:
Dear Jim: What's 4? Happy New Year! 'What's 4 you?' Nothing! You've been bad! Nyuck nyuck nyuck nyuck!
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Date: Sun, Dec 28, 1997 at 16:45:35 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: Pat
Subject: Re: Welcome new 'current premie' [repos
Message:
Pat, Thanks for hanging in there. You said: 'Someone wrote about the early zealousness and ego mania and I was there and I have and continue to try to make amends for this irrational and unkind behavior. For me to think that I had some kind of inside track on a God that was not available to anyone else except by 'my' way just repeated the same insane religious pattern I had rejected in my early teens.' But what exactly are you saying? Who's 'egomania' are you still apologizing for? Certainly not the premies. We tried to be humble grains of sand at our Lord's feet. Maybe you're talking about the guy who put on the 'krishna' crown, sat on a throne, told people he was the saviour of mankind come with more power than ever before, God in human form, had people linhe up to kiss his feet (and pay for it if so moved). Maybe he was the one with the ego problem? Surely that's what you mean, isn't it? Anything else would be... well NUTS. And as for the 'insanity' of thinking your way was the one and only, now where in the world did you get that idea? Jeez, that's a real tough one.
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Date: Sun, Dec 28, 1997 at 17:16:12 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Welcome new 'current premie' [repos
Message:
Mili, you don't think well. No, Jim - I just don't AGREE with you.
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Date: Sun, Dec 28, 1997 at 17:16:26 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: Pat
Subject: Re: Welcome new 'current premie' [repos
Message:
Pat, If you're still reading this, allow me to indulge your brave desire to 'test [your] actions with opposing viewpoints.' There is no such 'test' if you don't meet the question squarely. Whether you're trying to be evasive or not, you are being just that. I asked you a question and you didn't answer it. Oh sure, you said some words that indicated you kind of new the topic -- Maharaji and money -- but that's about it. You gave me an answer to the question: did you ever feel pressured to give money to maharaji? You gave a perfectly wonderful answer. Thanks very much. But, the question (or set of questions) I asked was/were: 'Does it matter at all how maharaji gets his money? No? Yes? Is that what you'd teach your children?' Now, if you really don't want to be evasive, answer it. OP, can you help her out here a bit?
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Date: Mon, Dec 29, 1997 at 09:38:13 (EST)
Poster: Mr Ex
Email:
To: Mili
Subject: Re: Welcome new 'current premie' [repos
Message:
I guess that�s for me ! >- Mr.Ex has yet to produce substantial evidence for his paranoid vacuuous little mystery mongering. Could you be very precise : about this supposed �paranoid vacuuous little mystery mongering� ? I�ve been involved for decades in DLM, Ashrams, DUO & EV�s administration. I�ve attended dozens of staff meetings with Mr Rawat and international organizers of EV. I�ve been practicing �knowledge� as taught by maharaji consistently for more than 25 years. Most of the issues I brought have been substantiated by other people�s stories. You haven�t been involved AT ALL in any of this. I think I have every right to say what I say. What is said here (by some people you obviously don�t like) and on the ex-premie.org web-site is of course biased (as any information) by the fact that me and many other people don�t like Mr Rawat� guruing very much. My purpose and obviously some other people�s is to warn some people, and maybe help them to have a more real understanding of what�s going on in �the world of knowledge�. All this can be easily checked by anybody : - go to meetings, ask questions to those organizers, what is their opinion about these specific issues. - ask to some people you know and friends what they think about all this. - think about the answers you will get and peoples behaviors. - do whatever you feel like doing to investigate by yourself - discuss the feedbacks you�ll get with people having different opinions. In other words : assess by yourself. As you HAVEN�T been involved yourself very much, please DO SO if you like.
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Date: Mon, Dec 29, 1997 at 09:40:00 (EST)
Poster: Mr Ex
Email:
To: Mili
Subject: Re: Welcome new 'current premie' [repos
Message:
I guess that�s for me ! >- Mr.Ex has yet to produce substantial evidence for his paranoid vacuuous little mystery mongering. Could you be very precise : about this supposed �paranoid vacuuous little mystery mongering� ? I�ve been involved for decades in DLM, Ashrams, DUO & EV�s administration. I�ve attended dozens of staff meetings with Mr Rawat and international organizers of EV. I�ve been practicing �knowledge� as taught by maharaji consistently for more than 25 years. Most of the issues I brought have been substantiated by other people�s stories. You haven�t been involved AT ALL in any of this. I think I have every right to say what I say. What is said here (by some people you obviously don�t like) and on the ex-premie.org web-site is of course biased (as any information) by the fact that me and many other people don�t like Mr Rawat� guruing very much. My purpose and obviously some other people�s is to warn some people, and maybe help them to have a more real understanding of what�s going on in �the world of knowledge�. All this can be easily checked by anybody : - go to meetings, ask questions to those organizers, what is their opinion about these specific issues. - ask to some people you know and friends what they think about all this. - think about the answers you will get and peoples behaviors. - do whatever you feel like doing to investigate by yourself - discuss the feedbacks you�ll get with people having different opinions. In other words : assess by yourself. As you HAVEN�T been involved yourself very much, please DO SO if you like.
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Date: Mon, Dec 29, 1997 at 10:59:21 (EST)
Poster: Mr Ex
Email:
To: Mili
Subject: My purpose (Re: Welcome new 'current premie' [repos)
Message:
My purpose is not to prove I'm right !! I might be, I might not. What I suggest is that new people and premies having questions should really investigate by themselves, not blowing some rew theories. What I said, and what I did appreciate in many posts here and stories on the web-site, are elements that can be confronted with anybodys experience in the 'world of knowledge'. I don't expect you to agree with me. Most of what you said here substantiate what I'm trying to prove, in front of many people (you don't agree of course). I don't know what we would post here without your cooperation! Your attitude is the best proof of my point (and some other people's obviously).
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Date: Fri, Dec 26, 1997 at 20:27:23 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email: Annacapa Drive
To: Everyone
Subject: Maharaji's mistress
Message:
When I talked with David Coyne, the guy who helped shut down Harlan and Mili's page in service to Stubby Ji, I mentioned what I'd heard about Maharaji's long-standing affair. I said I'd heard it was David Woods' wife but he said that's ridiculous, Woods is single. Can anyone clear up this discrepancy? Thanks, Jim
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Date: Fri, Dec 26, 1997 at 23:07:49 (EST)
Poster: Lurker
Email:
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Maharaji's mistress
Message:
When I talked with David Coyne, the guy who helped shut down Harlan and Mili's page in service to Stubby Ji, I mentioned what I'd heard about Maharaji's long-standing affair. I said I'd heard it was David Woods' wife but he said that's ridiculous, Woods is single. Can anyone clear up this discrepancy? Thanks, Jim maybe they just share the same hotel rooms to save some of m's precious money .... and to hide wher monica usually stays ..... who knows?
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Date: Fri, Dec 26, 1997 at 19:45:13 (EST)
Poster: Nigel
Email: N_Craig@msn.co.uk
To: Everyone
Subject: A generation gap
Message:
Much of the anger and hostily (my own included), evident in recent postings can be put down to what you might call a 'generation gap'. Practising premies who have received Knowledge during the last fifteen years (the Elan Vital generation) feel very defensive about GMJ in the face of what they see as unwarranted, hostile attacks on somebody who, they feel, has never made big demands on them, and has only tried to improve their lives. Older ex-premies (The DLM generation) tend to be both angry about what they now see as 'the wasted years', and the failure of current 'EV' premies to appreciate the former nature of what was, at least for a while, an extraodinarilary powerful cult. My own experience bridges both the DLM period, and, briefly, the EV period, but I identify most strongly with the DLM gang, and can still get very angry about the absurdities of the late seventies Maharaj ji experience - the out-and-out 'Living Perfect Master' trip propagated by Lord 'MM' (Mere Mortal) himself, and his initiators, acolytes and lickspittles of the period. And from what I remember, it simply isn't good enough to blame the premies themselves for the personality cult, as if MM had nothing to do with it. Back in 1978 I was a 23 year-old time-served aspirant. I'd been waiting nine months for Knowledge and had been turned down twice, so the elusive gift that was supposed to revolutionise my life was beginning to seem like something that would elude me forever. During the waiting period I'd been to satsang practically every night and had travelled far and wide to programmes with initiators. The message from everyone at this time was very, very explicit: you must detach yourself from all the pleasures, desires, ambitions of this world and surrender completely to Guru Maharaj ji, and let Knowledge become THE WHOLE of your existence. Maharaj ji himself was saying this in every single address. The day before I was to set off for my third and final attempt to receive Knowledge, my brother died of leukaemia, aged 22. People with similar experiences will know this is not a good thing to have happen in your family. But I had a new 'family' now, and everyone I spoke to - premies and the initiator - knew exactly where my duty lay - and that was to be at the Knowledge session, rather than with my family, so that's where I went for the next five days. I absolutely cringe at the memory. The insistence on complete dedication and devotion at that time - 'one-pointedness' they called it - was absolutely mindbending. (I can imagine Mili at this point reaching for his pen to scribble: '- so Maharaj ji bound and gagged you and whisked you off to the Knowledge session, did he?') No, Mili, he didn't. He didn't need to. That's the bloody tragedy of it. So I got Knowledge, and things got better gradually over the next couple of years, and I had some great meditation experiences. There was an incredible positive vibe in the Isle of Wight community at that time, and I saw it grow from just two or three premies in 1977 to nearing thirty in 1980. We were young, we were certain that we had found the truth; the rest of the world would soon follow. It was like a kind of heaven - a very blinkered heaven. We were smug as hell, in retrospect. We shared satsang about 'the crazy world' out there, and I think the premies tended to be pretty patronising - contemptuous, even - of the ordinary, everyday acts of love and kindness that you encounter in the non-premie world ('not the real thing; not that REAL LOVE; GURU MAHARAJ JI'S LOVE...' - again, I cringe at the memory). I went to Geneva, to London, to Malaga and had darshan, and to Rome in 1980. I brought three or four friends to their first satsang and watched with satisfaction as, one by one, they received Knowledge. Forever skint through paying for travelling, and making community donations, I was nevertheless happy for a few years. I met my first long-term partner, told her about Maharaj ji, took her to see him, then we got married. Then she got Knowledge and jumped into bed with another premie (an 'ashram' premie!). This sort of soured things... Met someone else, joined a band, moved away, remarried (still married), 'spaced-out' for five years. I never deliberately left the movement, but when I revisited the old community in 1986 it had dwindled and changed beyond all recognition. It was like going home and finding your old house has been burned down. My earliest premie friend had just become an initiator (but now called an 'Instructor') He gave me a Knowledge review. And HOW things had changed: no satsang, no service - just the meditation '...and you can do it as little or as much as you like, when you like' he told me. In a way it was Knowledge just like you had always wanted it to be - no heavy agya, just this 'help yourself' experience, but at the same time, it was more like a clinical technique you might find in a library book. They used to say Knowledge was a three-legged stool: satsang, service and meditation. Take away any one leg, and it will fall over. Now it was officially a one-legged stool. Very few old premies were still practising - and I'm no longer sure whether there are any left. (If any of you IOW ex-premies are reading this, DO send me an email, please) During the preparation for his becoming an instructor, my friend told me, Maharaj ji had told them 'I'm exactly the same as you are'. At another point (to blow their concepts) he smoked a cigarette. Street-cred, heh? Around the same time I went to see Maharaj ji in Birmingham - and the transformation was almost shocking. I had last seen MM in Rome in 1980. He had worn his Krishna crown and parnced around for ages in blue and white silk, waving a flute about (but he never played it). I remember we all seemed to find this quite delightful. He was the Lord, and none of us was in any doubt about it. The Birmingam event (1986) was more like a business convention. No 'bhole shri's', no music, no 'By His Grace's', no love, devotion, surrender - not much of anything, really (though still overpriced). Maharaj ji, smart-suited in a simple chair gave a couple of addresses, which, in retrospect, were no more than a heap of vacuous rubbish about nothing in particular. The whole experience seemed very much like MM was desperately trying to cut his losses and salvage something for himself out of the ruins of DLM - something low-key and respectable. He no longer referred to himself in the third person with the usual superlatives ('by that most amazing grace of Guru Maharaj ji' etc.). He was definitely playing himself down - almost pretending that earlier existence had never happened. There was a question-and-answer session in which old premies asked things like: 'why can't we have satsang anymore?' I don't remember any of the answers, but the experience was very underwhelming. I went home and never returned. The anger came later, as, over the years, I became much, much happier without Knowledge than I had ever been whilst practising it, and soon I was an out-and-out sceptic about all so-called spiritual paths. I recognised the wasted years for what they were. The conviction gradually grew in me that the whole thing was an absolute sham - a sort of con-trick without a con-man - MM being as much a victim as he is propagator of the whole grand delusion. (If he's been surrounded since his earliest childhood by people who regard him as the lord, then what can you expect?). But I do wish he'd realise the devasting sort of power he has held over people's whole lives - very destructive in some cases. The cynicism and satire springing up in this forum can only be a very healthy thing, I feel. Recently I went to college, got a degree in psychology at the age of forty - an experience of 'self-worth' unrivalled by any I had previously known. My final-year dissertation was all about people's susceptibility to paranormal / superstitious beliefs, and how you can prove experimentally just how gullible most people can be in certain situations. (I seemed to have a remarkable feel for the subject, for some strange reason...) Never, never, never again will I fall for such a load of old humbug as that which I squandered my early years of adult life on. Sorry if I've gone on a bit Best wishes.
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Date: Fri, Dec 26, 1997 at 20:31:23 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: Nigel
Subject: Re: A generation gap
Message:
Thanks for all that, Nigel. I think you've called it all perfectly. Thanks again.
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Date: Fri, Dec 26, 1997 at 20:55:08 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: Jim
Subject: and a bit on evolution (Re: A generation gap)
Message:
Nigel, I just noticed that you studied psychology. Have you read much evolutionary psych? I'm reading Pinker's 'How the Mind Works' and think it, like much in the field, is really compelling and interesting. Your points below about natural selection and so-called spirituality are, I think, irrefutable.
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Date: Fri, Dec 26, 1997 at 21:19:32 (EST)
Poster: Brian
Email:
To: Nigel
Subject: Re: A generation gap
Message:
This is a great post, Nigel. Thanks for sharing it I was especially struck by the memory of Knowledge being referred to as a three-legged stool. I remember that now. Guess you know how to sit on the one-legged stool: turn it upside-down and prepare to gain a REAL understanding of Maharaji's Mission. [Ouch! I'm being a potty-mouth about the spirit again...]
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Date: Fri, Dec 26, 1997 at 21:47:20 (EST)
Poster: Peter Stuyvesant
Email:
To: Nigel
Subject: Re: A generation gap
Message:
Nigel wrote "(to blow their concepts) he smoked a cigarette." Just curious, what brand does the Lord of the Universe smoke?
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Date: Fri, Dec 26, 1997 at 23:17:59 (EST)
Poster: Mr Ex
Email:
To: Peter Stuyvesant
Subject: Re: A generation gap
Message:
Nigel wrote '(to blow their concepts) he smoked a cigarette.' Just curious, what brand does the Lord of the Universe smoke? Marlboro, at that time anyway ... He also used to explain how to keep them fresh, storing them in the fridge.
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Date: Sat, Dec 27, 1997 at 04:08:25 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Nigel
Subject: Re: A generation gap
Message:
Nigel, please make no apologies for having "gone on a bit". Your post was great. I'd be interested to see it posted as a "Journeys" entry on the website if you're agreeable. Regards from Katie
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Date: Sat, Dec 27, 1997 at 07:12:29 (EST)
Poster: John Player
Email:
To: Mr Ex
Subject: Re: A generation gap
Message:
Keeps his cigarettes in the fridge! What, does he eat them or something? Is he a twenty a day man or just an occasional smoker?
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Date: Sat, Dec 27, 1997 at 09:44:30 (EST)
Poster: Mike
Email: bigguy32@juno.com
To: Katie
Subject: Re: A generation gap
Message:
Nigel, please make no apologies for having 'gone on a bit'. Your post was great. I'd be interested to see it posted as a 'Journeys' entry on the website if you're agreeable. Regards from Katie Katie, what are you doing up so late?
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Date: Sat, Dec 27, 1997 at 10:56:31 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email: joger02@aol.com
To: Nigel
Subject: Re: A generation gap
Message:
Thank you so much, Nigel. Very well done. You really filled in for me some of the gap in my understanding of what happened with M in the 80s. I agree he just tried to tone down his trip in order to try to keep what was left of it going. The fact that he would try to repackage himself as "just like us (you)" after he had milked the lord of the universe trip until he thought is was dry, makes me have even less respect for him that I had, not that I had much. I have a friend who attended one of those programs you mentioned in 1986 in Boston. She was so insulted by M because he wouldn't address honestly questions from premies that touched on her many years in the ashram, total dedication, total surrender and the other demands M made on us but then acted in 1986 like he hadn't and that it was just stuff the premies did without his involvement. She described it as "utter bullshit." She was questioning M before that program but afterwards she really hated him. But from what I have gathered, it appears that in the 90s M is moving back to his the perfect master roots. He is giving darshan again all over the world, he refers to himself as "the Master," the most devotional of songs are sung to him at programs, he "dances" at programs, and he is clearly fostering a cult of personality with videos that say nothing but show him prancing around in various outfits and vehicles. If he is "just like us" (still) why would that be happening? Personally, I think he missed being worshipped and wants that back and probably has a psychological need for it. JW
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Date: Sat, Dec 27, 1997 at 11:00:02 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email: joger02@aol.com
To: Mr Ex
Subject: Re: A generation gap
Message:
Nigel wrote '(to blow their concepts) he smoked a cigarette.' Just curious, what brand does the Lord of the Universe smoke? Marlboro, at that time anyway ... He also used to explain how to keep them fresh, storing them in the fridge. When the premies found out Maharaji was smoking cigarettes, did many premies take up smoking? I ask this because in my experience, premies often tried to imitate what Maharaji did, not that they could come anywhere close to his extravagant spending. It usually extended to wearing cologne M wore, trying to imitate his ties, etc. I wondered if that would extend to doing something as stupid and self-destructive as smoking cigarettes, just because Maharaji was stupid enough to do it. JW
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Date: Sat, Dec 27, 1997 at 11:20:22 (EST)
Poster: JohnCavad
Email:
To: Nigel
Subject: Re: A generation gap
Message:
Nigel, thank you for sharing all that. It was well written. And man, can I relate!
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Date: Sat, Dec 27, 1997 at 11:34:04 (EST)
Poster: Katie to Mike
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Mike
Subject: Re: A generation gap
Message:
Nigel, please make no apologies for having 'gone on a bit'. Your post was great. I'd be interested to see it posted as a 'Journeys' entry on the website if you're agreeable. Regards from Katie Katie, what are you doing up so late? Hi Mike - we are having a very small ex-premie reunion here, and I stayed up late thinking about all this stuff & answering my e-mail (I'm an insomniac, anyway, so it's not that late for me). That's all, really.
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Date: Sat, Dec 27, 1997 at 18:45:54 (EST)
Poster: Nigel
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: A generation gap
Message:
Thank you so much, Nigel. Very well done. You really filled in for me some of the gap in my understanding of what happened with M in the 80s. I agree he just tried to tone down his trip in order to try to keep what was left of it going. The fact that he would try to repackage himself as 'just like us (you)' after he had milked the lord of the universe trip until he thought is was dry, makes me have even less respect for him that I had, not that I had much. I have a friend who attended one of those programs you mentioned in 1986 in Boston. She was so insulted by M because he wouldn't address honestly questions from premies that touched on her many years in the ashram, total dedication, total surrender and the other demands M made on us but then acted in 1986 like he hadn't and that it was just stuff the premies did without his involvement. She described it as 'utter bullshit.' She was questioning M before that program but afterwards she really hated him. But from what I have gathered, it appears that in the 90s M is moving back to his the perfect master roots. He is giving darshan again all over the world, he refers to himself as 'the Master,' the most devotional of songs are sung to him at programs, he 'dances' at programs, and he is clearly fostering a cult of personality with videos that say nothing but show him prancing around in various outfits and vehicles. If he is 'just like us' (still) why would that be happening? Personally, I think he missed being worshipped and wants that back and probably has a psychological need for it. JW But can he play that flute yet? Regards, and thanks for the kind words Nigel
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Date: Sat, Dec 27, 1997 at 19:09:52 (EST)
Poster: Nigel
Email:
To: Katie
Subject: Re: A generation gap
Message:
Nigel, please make no apologies for having 'gone on a bit'. Your post was great. I'd be interested to see it posted as a 'Journeys' entry on the website if you're agreeable. Regards from Katie I apologised 'cause I was worried about crashing the forum by writing too much (I'm not sorry about writing it - it felt like something that I've needed to say for a long time). Thanks for kind words. I've no problem with the posting going into the 'journeys' section (maybe without the first paragraph). Do I have to put it there myself? Best wishes and Jai Satchitanand(!) Nigel
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Date: Sat, Dec 27, 1997 at 19:44:11 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Nigel
Subject: Re: A generation gap
Message:
Thanks for kind words. I've no problem with the posting going into the 'journeys' section (maybe without the first paragraph). Do I have to put it there myself? Best wishes and Jai Satchitanand(!) Nigel No, I can probably put it there for you (by cut and paste)if you don't want to edit it any more (I understand that you want the first paragraph removed; anything else?). Let me know. Katie
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Date: Sat, Dec 27, 1997 at 20:04:46 (EST)
Poster: Nigel
Email:
To: Jim
Subject: Re: and a bit on evolution (Re: A generation gap)
Message:
Nigel, I just noticed that you studied psychology. Have you read much evolutionary psych? I'm reading Pinker's 'How the Mind Works' and think it, like much in the field, is really compelling and interesting. Your points below about natural selection and so-called spirituality are, I think, irrefutable. Thanks for kind words. I know Pinker and his stuff on language ('The Language Instinct'), but not the book you mention. He's a good writer. I'll post again on evolutionary psychology - it's one of my favourite subjects, but one that's prone to wild over-generalisations (E.O. Wilson's 'Sociobiology' comes to mind). The big problem is, nobody was around to demonstrate experimentally how the human mind evolved, so people just make it all up and sell lots of books. On the other hand, psychological theories that ignore the fact that we are animals who have evolved tend to be even worse. Endless non-falsifiable debate. Beats satsang anyday. Best wishes
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Date: Sun, Dec 28, 1997 at 01:25:57 (EST)
Poster: op
Email:
To: Nigel
Subject: Re: A generation gap
Message:
Dear Nigel: I appreciated your very honest story here. I am one of the older generation who managed to go through the DLM and EV years - 27 so far and still going strong. The vacuousness of the 80s struck me too, but I waited it out, feeling that something was going on that I didn't quite get, but it wasn't negative enough for me to fade away. And since about 1991 I've found that M has 'come back' full force, with - among other things - s s & m as a three-legged stool again. One thing that disturbed me very much, and one of the sort of things I feel ('apologist' that I am) made M finally dig out and virtually destroy a lot of what DLM had come to, is your story about leaving your grieving family behind to go and receive Knowledge. These days that could not happen. As an example, M refused to give Knowledge to a pregnant woman, telling her that when the baby is born, that will and should take precedence in her life. There is no rush, no frantic running to get that experience before one more day passes. He told the woman to start coming back when she has adjusted to the new schedule of sharing her life with the child, and will have time to devote to the practice of Knowledge as well as rearing her child (I don't remember the exact time frame, but he told her to wait at least a year). In your case, I feel pretty secure that he would have suggested that you wait, that you give your family the love they obviously needed from you, and give yourself time to grieve as well. As for what happened during the 80s, each person seems to have her/his own interpretation, so I won't even bother with mine. Congratulations on your good marriage and your degree.
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Date: Sun, Dec 28, 1997 at 07:09:23 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Nigel
Subject: Re: and a bit on evolution (Re: A generation gap)
Message:
Nigel, I just noticed that you studied psychology. Have you read much evolutionary psych? I'm reading Pinker's 'How the Mind Works' and think it, like much in the field, is really compelling and interesting. Your points below about natural selection and so-called spirituality are, I think, irrefutable. Thanks for kind words. I know Pinker and his stuff on language ('The Language Instinct'), but not the book you mention. He's a good writer. I'll post again on evolutionary psychology - it's one of my favourite subjects, but one that's prone to wild over-generalisations (E.O. Wilson's 'Sociobiology' comes to mind). The big problem is, nobody was around to demonstrate experimentally how the human mind evolved, so people just make it all up and sell lots of books. On the other hand, psychological theories that ignore the fact that we are animals who have evolved tend to be even worse. Endless non-falsifiable debate. Beats satsang anyday. Best wishes Check out 'The Naked Ape' and 'The Human Zoo' by Desmond Morris. - Mili
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Date: Sun, Dec 28, 1997 at 07:44:55 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Nigel
Subject: Re: A generation gap
Message:
Thank you so much, Nigel. Very well done. You really filled in for me some of the gap in my understanding of what happened with M in the 80s. I agree he just tried to tone down his trip in order to try to keep what was left of it going. The fact that he would try to repackage himself as 'just like us (you)' after he had milked the lord of the universe trip until he thought is was dry, makes me have even less respect for him that I had, not that I had much. I have a friend who attended one of those programs you mentioned in 1986 in Boston. She was so insulted by M because he wouldn't address honestly questions from premies that touched on her many years in the ashram, total dedication, total surrender and the other demands M made on us but then acted in 1986 like he hadn't and that it was just stuff the premies did without his involvement. She described it as 'utter bullshit.' She was questioning M before that program but afterwards she really hated him. But from what I have gathered, it appears that in the 90s M is moving back to his the perfect master roots. He is giving darshan again all over the world, he refers to himself as 'the Master,' the most devotional of songs are sung to him at programs, he 'dances' at programs, and he is clearly fostering a cult of personality with videos that say nothing but show him prancing around in various outfits and vehicles. If he is 'just like us' (still) why would that be happening? Personally, I think he missed being worshipped and wants that back and probably has a psychological need for it. JW But can he play that flute yet? Regards, and thanks for the kind words Nigel I LOVE the videos. I LOVE to see Him dance. I LOVE to sing devotional songs. I LOVE the personality cult. GIMME MORE OF ALL THAT !!!
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Date: Sun, Dec 28, 1997 at 10:58:06 (EST)
Poster: Brian
Email:
To: Mili
Subject: Re: A generation gap
Message:
I LOVE the videos. I LOVE to see Him dance. I LOVE to sing devotional songs. I LOVE the personality cult. GIMME MORE OF ALL THAT !!! Great quote, Mili. Thank you.
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Date: Sun, Dec 28, 1997 at 11:28:44 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Brian
Subject: Re: A generation gap
Message:
I LOVE the videos. I LOVE to see Him dance. I LOVE to sing devotional songs. I LOVE the personality cult. GIMME MORE OF ALL THAT !!! - Mili Great quote, Mili. Thank you. Glad you like it, Brian! You can include it in the ex-premie website if you want.
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Date: Sun, Dec 28, 1997 at 16:51:16 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: Mili
Subject: Re: and a bit on evolution (Re: A generation gap)
Message:
My understanding -- could be wrong -- is that Morris is considered completely off-base, out of date and insignificant these days. Really, I'm not just saying that. I'm certainly not saying it to be petty -- you know, cause it's you or something. It's just that Morris had no proper foundation and his speculation isn't solidly rooted in modern scientific theory. Again, I may be wrong, buyt I think that's kind of where things are.
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Date: Sun, Dec 28, 1997 at 17:07:44 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Jim
Subject: Re: and a bit on evolution (Re: A generation gap)
Message:
My understanding -- could be wrong -- is that Morris is considered completely off-base, out of date and insignificant these days. Really, I'm not just saying that. I'm certainly not saying it to be petty -- you know, cause it's you or something. It's just that Morris had no proper foundation and his speculation isn't solidly rooted in modern scientific theory. Again, I may be wrong, buyt I think that's kind of where things are. Jim, you are invoking a concensus opinion here - that's one thing I am highly suspicious of. The books I mentioned ARE old - but they are quite, well, enlightening (you here, still?). Anyway, that stuff is hardcore biological basis of human behaviour if there ever was one. After reading that you wish that there was a Perfect Master there to turn you back from an ape into a human again. (I know, I've definitely lost you now...)
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Date: Mon, Dec 29, 1997 at 19:16:43 (EST)
Poster: Nigel
Email:
To: op
Subject: Re: A generation gap
Message:
Dear Nigel: I appreciated your very honest story here. I am one of the older generation who managed to go through the DLM and EV years - 27 so far and still going strong. The vacuousness of the 80s struck me too, but I waited it out, feeling that something was going on that I didn't quite get, but it wasn't negative enough for me to fade away. And since about 1991 I've found that M has 'come back' full force, with - among other things - s s & m as a three-legged stool again. One thing that disturbed me very much, and one of the sort of things I feel ('apologist' that I am) made M finally dig out and virtually destroy a lot of what DLM had come to, is your story about leaving your grieving family behind to go and receive Knowledge. These days that could not happen. As an example, M refused to give Knowledge to a pregnant woman, telling her that when the baby is born, that will and should take precedence in her life. There is no rush, no frantic running to get that experience before one more day passes. He told the woman to start coming back when she has adjusted to the new schedule of sharing her life with the child, and will have time to devote to the practice of Knowledge as well as rearing her child (I don't remember the exact time frame, but he told her to wait at least a year). In your case, I feel pretty secure that he would have suggested that you wait, that you give your family the love they obviously needed from you, and give yourself time to grieve as well. As for what happened during the 80s, each person seems to have her/his own interpretation, so I won't even bother with mine. Congratulations on your good marriage and your degree. Glad to hear he�s fixed the stool - I just hope it fulfils your needs for another 27 years! Somehow I�m not too impressed that premies / aspirants are not encouraged to neglect their families nowadays. I doubt it was ever the official policy, at least for non-ashram premies. One of the points I was trying to make was that premies don�t NEED any encouragement in this respect. Unless they�ve changed completely, there are devotees of Maharaj ji who would sell their children�s toys, or their own grandmothers into slavery, just to bow down before their master one more time. Personally, it�s all water under the bridge as far as I�m concerned, and the real point I wanted to make went: > Never, never, never again will I allow myself to be taken in by a load of old humbug... I work for a drug-rehabilitation agency in Birkenhead. I�ve seen premies and I�ve seen junkies, and it isn�t too much of an exaggeration to say that I think I in some ways I would prefer my children to grow up as heroin users than premies. For two reasons: firstly, junkies tend to KNOW that they�ve got their lives into a mess, and can be pretty clear about their real needs. Secondly, you can do a full detox in under nine days. It took me the best part of nine years to get rid of the last traces of poison from my system. Oops, I�m getting a bit melodramatic here.... sorry Anyway, best wishes PS> Since the old stuff�s coming back into fashion - would you like to buy my beragon? It�s a bit dusty, but serviceable.
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Date: Mon, Dec 29, 1997 at 19:27:47 (EST)
Poster: Nigel
Email:
To: Katie
Subject: Re: Nigel to Katie (Re: A generation gap)
Message:
Thanks for kind words. I've no problem with the posting going into the 'journeys' section (maybe without the first paragraph). Do I have to put it there myself? Best wishes and Jai Satchitanand(!) Nigel No, I can probably put it there for you (by cut and paste)if you don't want to edit it any more (I understand that you want the first paragraph removed; anything else?). Let me know. Katie Thanks for the offer, Katie, but I think it does need some editing as there are things in it that only make sense in context. (I just thought there might be some sort of automatic transfer, or something. I don�t know much about how websites work). Also my email will be changing soon. I�ll post in Journeys in due course.
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Date: Mon, Dec 29, 1997 at 19:52:13 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Nigel
Subject: Re: Nigel to Katie (Re: A generation gap)
Message:
Thanks for the offer, Katie, but I think it does need some editing as there are things in it that only make sense in context. (I just thought there might be some sort of automatic transfer, or something. I don�t know much about how websites work). Also my email will be changing soon. I�ll post in Journeys in due course. OK, but don't forget to save a copy while you are waiting to do it. Just in case the forum crashes again... BTW, It's really easy to post a Journey - you just go to that part of the "in contact" portion of the site, and type it in where you're directed to (or cut from here and paste it in, and edit it there.) I think your story would be a great addition to the "Journey's section. Katie Regards from Katie
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Date: Tues, Dec 30, 1997 at 12:15:54 (EST)
Poster: Brian
Email:
To: Nigel
Subject: Re: A generation gap
Message:
Since the old stuff�s coming back into fashion - would you like to buy my beragon? It�s a bit dusty, but serviceable. Ah, yes. The REAL one-legged stool. Enjoyed your comments about heroin vs. devotion, BTW. Funny how Knowledge blinds, while escaping through drugs causes one to confront reality.
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Date: Fri, Dec 26, 1997 at 15:20:13 (EST)
Poster: John K.
Email:
To: Everyone
Subject: Darshan
Message:
I hate to bring up a sensitive subject, and I suspect this will be one, but I was wondering about the experience of darshan. In '73 I bowed down (I don't think I kissed her feet) before m's mom in houston at the festival there. I think I joined the throngs lined up because there really was nothing else to do before our bus took us to the airport. Anyway, I actually really had a very nice experience. I got really high! It was indistinguishable to me from the exp of m's darshan. In the late 70's I heard an initiator bragging about how she had not gone through the darshan line in houston to bow down before the mom because she knew even then that the mom was not the real thing. She only wanted m. I asked her about my own experience of m's mom's darshan and she explained it by saying it was m's grace. Another initiator explained it by saying it was the power of MIND. M's family had spiritual powers and they could conjure up very similar experiences, but they were from the MIND, they were EVIL. It was not cool at that time to ask a lot of questions but I remember I had to bite my tongue (or maybe i did nectar) when I heard his explanation. I really did want to explore that line of thinking. I don't really want to discuss the mom's darshan, I am actually curious how the rest of the ex's explain darshan. I did have a positive experience, not every time but many times. The funny thing is though it is not an experience I miss. I don't long for it. I remember it as being a mindless high, sort of a numb feeling, maybe...uh, duh, I guess it's beyond mere words. but anyway any thoughts on what exactly took/takes place in darshan?
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Date: Fri, Dec 26, 1997 at 15:49:33 (EST)
Poster: dar
Email: buzzbee
To: John K.
Subject: shan (Re: Darshan)
Message:
darshan translates roughly into 'blarney stone'
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Date: Fri, Dec 26, 1997 at 16:41:27 (EST)
Poster: John K.
Email:
To: dar
Subject: Re: shan (Re: Darshan)
Message:
And blarney means...?
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Date: Fri, Dec 26, 1997 at 17:20:29 (EST)
Poster: Mr Ex
Email:
To: John K.
Subject: Re: Darshan
Message:
the so called 'strong experience' is the same that you would get prostrating in front of anything you've loved so much and you've waited for so long, and into which you'd have such an intense emotional investment. There is no 'spiritual' trick involved! There is absolutely nothing spiritual involved here : it's an emotional shock. Very well known phenomenon. What the 'perfect master' makes you believe through his brainwashing satsang is something else. Now I understand that it's very difficult to admit because we have been so strongly suggested .... This is rather a charlatan's trick, and a good one. Very difficult to admit that all this show is fake from a to z!
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Date: Fri, Dec 26, 1997 at 18:12:19 (EST)
Poster: John K.
Email:
To: Mr Ex
Subject: Re: Darshan
Message:
I think the thing I feel most embarassed about was once I touched the feet of a mahatma, it was in the early 70's. I have no idea why I did it, I think it was a case of really wanting to suck up and get in the good graces of someone who was close to m. Welll, you know what Nietsche (sp?) says, 'that which does not kill you is good for you'. I don't think I was irreparably harmed from all that bowing down. I do something like it where I work verrry often, it's more discreet though, not quite as blatant.
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Date: Fri, Dec 26, 1997 at 18:12:45 (EST)
Poster: John Cavad
Email:
To: Mr Ex
Subject: Re: Darshan: "The Experience" (Re: Darshan)
Message:
I would (almost always) experience a super-natural presence all around me. Forgive me if this sounds way out there...It's the same experience I would get around or inside a certified haunted house or sometimes a battlefield. There's a density as thick as mud that can be felt with all the senses except with sight. It's a light-headed, pleasant feeling. I'm not one that is into parapsychology, but I've been told I'm very sensitive to what some people believe are ghost-like or spiritual entities. I don't know why I am, (neither do I seek such experiences) but I have pointed out (to guides/experts) the very spot a violent or disturbed death has taken place, and have been correct 100 percent of the time. Don't get the wrong idea about this flighty subject. There's an entire study on it world-wide, as you know. I'm not that into it, I'm just unwittingly sensitive to this strange phenomenon. My point is simple: I must have been halucinating! There! That's my experience. By the way, great explanation, Mr. Ex.
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Date: Fri, Dec 26, 1997 at 23:13:24 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email: joger02@aol.com
To: John K.
Subject: Re: Darshan
Message:
I hate to bring up a sensitive subject, and I suspect this will be one, but I was wondering about the experience of darshan. In '73 I bowed down (I don't think I kissed her feet) before m's mom in houston at the festival there. I think I joined the throngs lined up because there really was nothing else to do before our bus took us to the airport. Anyway, I actually really had a very nice experience. I got really high! It was indistinguishable to me from the exp of m's darshan. In the late 70's I heard an initiator bragging about how she had not gone through the darshan line in houston to bow down before the mom because she knew even then that the mom was not the real thing. She only wanted m. I asked her about my own experience of m's mom's darshan and she explained it by saying it was m's grace. Another initiator explained it by saying it was the power of MIND. M's family had spiritual powers and they could conjure up very similar experiences, but they were from the MIND, they were EVIL. It was not cool at that time to ask a lot of questions but I remember I had to bite my tongue (or maybe i did nectar) when I heard his explanation. I really did want to explore that line of thinking. I don't really want to discuss the mom's darshan, I am actually curious how the rest of the ex's explain darshan. I did have a positive experience, not every time but many times. The funny thing is though it is not an experience I miss. I don't long for it. I remember it as being a mindless high, sort of a numb feeling, maybe...uh, duh, I guess it's beyond mere words. but anyway any thoughts on what exactly took/takes place in darshan? I never had darshan from Mata Ji. But I think I had darshan from M about 20 times. That's my best estimate doing the math. It might be more times. I had a few "nice' experiences in darshan but mostly I didn't. Especially the last few years I pretty much experienced nothing at all, except some self blame for not being surrendered enough. I think what you experience in darshan is your own faith when you come in contact with the object of your faith. That is intensified by the fact that you are with thousands of people who are eager for darshan and are similarly focused. This is called a "group high." Also, we were told over and over how precious darshan was and that alone would probably provide that some people would have some kind of an "experience." But I agree, even when it was "nice" I was always left with a "so what" feeling and I always felt it had no impact on my personal life whatsoever. And I don't want to get into a "submission" thing here, but as is sometimes true in a sexual relationship, some people have a very strong sexual experience when they "submit" to another person sexually. It's a kind of freedom you experience when you surrender to another. Since darshan is kind of the ultimate act of submission, (bow and kiss feet), I think a certain "freeing" experience can come from that too. As I have said before, the last time I had darshan, my "faith" in M was pretty low and I just saw him as a fat, greasy guy that I didn't feel attracted to and who, unfortunately, despite how I wished it be true, was just a very peculiar human being who had no more real influence on my life than anyone else who I might choose to have such faith in. JW
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Date: Fri, Dec 26, 1997 at 23:24:30 (EST)
Poster: Mr Ex
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: Darshan
Message:
Yeah, it's exactly like when you happen to meet m when you don't expect to meet him at all, like in a street or at an airport. It happened to me quite a few times, as well as to some people I know. We all had the same 'experience' : he appears like any guy you don't know and you'd meet. It's kind of a shock usually. Then the explanation comes : he 'reveals' himself only when he wants to! How stupid can you get ...
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Date: Fri, Dec 26, 1997 at 23:33:22 (EST)
Poster: John K.
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: Darshan
Message:
Joe, I think there is definetly something to the submission appeal. we sang every day 'you are my mother, you are my father' please take care of me mommy and daddy forever and ever and ever. I think at the root of it is a strong desire to not accept personal responsibility. 'please take my life, I don't want it, I don't want to live, it's too hard, wahhhh!' ah well, live and learn.
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Date: Sat, Dec 27, 1997 at 10:17:17 (EST)
Poster: stone
Email: bb
To: John K.
Subject: kiss (Re: Darshan)
Message:
In ireland there is a stone called the blarney stone. You are supposed to kiss it for good luck. blarney means 'its a load of blarney' its a load of bull it's just a pretend thing for the stone it's all in fun fake baloney.
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Date: Sat, Dec 27, 1997 at 10:20:34 (EST)
Poster: it's the
Email: bb
To: John Cavad
Subject: carpet (Re: Darshan)
Message:
as you wald through the tunnel the carpets get progressively thicker. the lighting and the tunnel effect and the increaseing music and the people lining your way and the hum of the metal detector make for a heavenly time.
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Date: Fri, Dec 26, 1997 at 14:59:24 (EST)
Poster: John Cavad
Email:
To: Everyone
Subject: The GMJ Cable TV Show
Message:
Has anyone in Premie Land ever tried to start a TV cable show. Now that would really bring in the profits (though TV is very expensive).
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Date: Fri, Dec 26, 1997 at 15:54:21 (EST)
Poster: don't make suggestions
Email: buzzbee
To: John Cavad
Subject: to jesus either I suppose (Re: The GMJ Cable TV Show)
Message:
it was suggested to m and he was pretty mad about it. indignant is the way he expressed about it during a speech in the mid nineties. Indignant that the guy would tell or suggest him how to do it. He is just like castro and the pope in managerial style, I'll have to post that one later.
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Date: Fri, Dec 26, 1997 at 18:18:22 (EST)
Poster: John C
Email:
To: don't make suggestions
Subject: Re: to jesus either I suppose (Re: The GMJ Cable TV Show)
Message:
The TV enangelists have been very successful by using TV. I think it's a great idea. As this sight becomes more populated with survivors, I recommend we buy some time on cable TV and spread our message to the world.
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Date: Fri, Dec 26, 1997 at 12:34:44 (EST)
Poster: John Cavad
Email:
To: Everyone
Subject: Darshan Profits
Message:
I almost forgot about the envelope we had to offer filled with money immediately before Darshan. (Damn, I did give lots of money directly to GMJ and completely forgot about it!!!) Darshan is a great money maker for GMJ, don't you all agree? QUESTION: What is the average donation per premie on Darshan? (please don't say "it depends, or it's individual.") There's always an average. Many premies I knew gave about 10 to 20 USA dollars. I know some that gave $100 or more, but that was the exception. How many people attend a program these days? How much money do you think he earns per year on darshan alone? No wonder why this man travels the world so much: it pays overtime too!
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Date: Fri, Dec 26, 1997 at 12:37:18 (EST)
Poster: Elton John
Email:
To: John Cavad
Subject: Re: Darshan Profits
Message:
You know, I think this chap makes more money per gig than I make!!!! Maybe I'm in the wrong racket!
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Date: Fri, Dec 26, 1997 at 13:01:18 (EST)
Poster: Mr Ex
Email:
To: John Cavad
Subject: Re: Darshan Profits
Message:
One of the main problems for Maharaji is that he can�t give enough Darshan ! In 97, he gave Darshan in India, Nepal, Ivory Coast, Mauritius, Taiwan, Australia, and very likely few other places. Anybody from Mr PPR�s PR staff could confirm this ? ............... He recently said that the 2 most precious things for him are 1/ the moment the techniques are given, 2/ the moment you can �pay respect� to your master. OP might give us the full quote I guess .... Everybody knows what he means by �paying respect�. Full Pranam is even most precious, but who gets an opportunity these days ? Maybe if you go do �service� at the residence, and if you�re patient enough, you might get some �private� opportunity .... The average donation : difficult to say. But you won�t find that donation box easily now. Premies are encouraged to send check or transfer directly to his bank account. Preferably on a regular basis. The # is usually available at every �service� meeting. Then premies are also encouraged to work for free or very low wages in one of those �special� businesses managed by some of his friends, whose profits are �donated� to Maharaji. He makes huge benefits from these companies (NSA, Amtext and a few others). Millions of $ a year. Have you been involved in any of these ?
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Date: Fri, Dec 26, 1997 at 13:18:29 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: John Cavad
Subject: Re: Darshan Profits
Message:
I almost forgot about the envelope we had to offer filled with money immediately before Darshan. (Damn, I did give lots of money directly to GMJ and completely forgot about it!!!) Darshan is a great money maker for GMJ, don't you all agree? QUESTION: What is the average donation per premie on Darshan? (please don't say 'it depends, or it's individual.') There's always an average. Many premies I knew gave about 10 to 20 USA dollars. I know some that gave $100 or more, but that was the exception. How many people attend a program these days? How much money do you think he earns per year on darshan alone? No wonder why this man travels the world so much: it pays overtime too! To be fair, I don't think money was "required" to be given before darshan. I DO recall the convenient supply of envelopes provided as one walked in, however, so the implication and encouragement was definitely there. The amount of money Maharaji raised in any one darshan line was substantial. The figure I heard back in the late 70s and early 80s was $250,000 each, and remember that's 1970 dollars, so that would be about $500,000 in today's dollars. My context for this is when I was at National Headquarters in Miami in 1979-1980, there was intense fundraising going on for the ridiculous Boeing 707. The millions that were being raised to go into that plane came primarily from a fundraising program in which people were told the money was for M's "world tour," when in fact the money was going towards the plane. Anyhow, there was always a scramble to raise even more money for the plane and its rennovation. I recall that the DLM honchos were astounded that M was so into the plane that he offered to hand over the money he raised in the darshan line at a particular program and the figure $250,000 was the estimate. I think in the end he didn't contribute the money but kept it as he usually did. As to my own experience, through much of the time, I was an ashram housefather and hence in charge of the ashram finances. We donated our 10% to DLM and we also donated another 10% directly to Maharaji every month to the P.O. Box in Malibu and I was instructed to make the checks out to "Guru Maharaj Ji." All those checks were cashed. At darshan, I would try to donate an additional 10%, but since we were usually in debt from the other donations and getting to the festival, as well as paying the entrance fee, which was sometimes as high as $70 (another fundraiser), that was sometimes difficult. I would usually donate around $500 on behalf of the ashram in addition to all the other donations we were making. I also know premies who did not like or trust DLM and so did not do the 10% donations, and ONLY donated to M directly, sometimes only at darshan. People often gave other gifts like jewelry to M at darshan. JW
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Date: Fri, Dec 26, 1997 at 13:21:20 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email: joger02@aol.com
To: Mr Ex
Subject: Re: Darshan Profits
Message:
Then premies are also encouraged to work for free or very low wages in one of those �special� businesses managed by some of his friends, whose profits are �donated� to Maharaji. He makes huge benefits from these companies (NSA, Amtext and a few others). Millions of $ a year. Have you been involved in any of these ? Can you tell us what these businesses do/sell/make/service they provide and who is in charge of each one? JW
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Date: Fri, Dec 26, 1997 at 13:28:34 (EST)
Poster: John Cavad
Email:
To: Mr Ex
Subject: Re: Darshan Profits
Message:
I'd like to know more about his companies. He's a major shareholder in them??? What kind of businesses are they? Barogan factories (big profits in those)?
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Date: Fri, Dec 26, 1997 at 13:33:16 (EST)
Poster: John Cavad
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: Darshan Profits
Message:
JW, thank you for the insight. Fascinating, indeed. Anyone know how much $$$$ GMJ requires to personally live (him and his family only)? What's his allowance?
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Date: Fri, Dec 26, 1997 at 13:35:37 (EST)
Poster: John Cavad
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: Darshan Profits
Message:
Now, I completely understand why he was always in such a blissful mood a few hours after darshan during the evening program: he had just made more money than Frank Sinatra ever made in a single performance (who by the way was the highest paid performer in the world). Smiles, smiles!
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Date: Fri, Dec 26, 1997 at 14:16:43 (EST)
Poster: Current Premie
Email:
To: John Cavad
Subject: Re: Darshan Profits
Message:
Watch Maharaji in the most recent Amaroo series when there was dashan after a long time (except in Asia). He specifically requests that no one bring any letters etc. and that one should only come to darshan as simple respect. If they didn't want to, this was fine by him. You guys really need to get a little more current. Haven't you changed in the last 10 yrs.?
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Date: Fri, Dec 26, 1997 at 14:22:59 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: Current Premie
Subject: Re: Darshan Profits
Message:
Watch Maharaji in the most recent Amaroo series when there was dashan after a long time (except in Asia). He specifically requests that no one bring any letters etc. and that one should only come to darshan as simple respect. If they didn't want to, this was fine by him. You guys really need to get a little more current. Haven't you changed in the last 10 yrs.? In response to these supposed "changes" I don't recall anyone ever being forced to go to darshan, and I don't recall that anyone was be punished if they didn't go, although one's devotion would certainly have been questioned if another premie, initiator, etc found out. So, saying it was okay if you don't want to is a little mealy mouthed if you ask me, especially when the whole melieu of a program is worhsip of Maharaji. He doesn't want "letters" anymore? Is that because it's time-consuming to sort the cash from the letters? Did he say NOT to give MONEY at darshan? Somehow I think not. JW
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Date: Fri, Dec 26, 1997 at 14:49:41 (EST)
Poster: John Cavad
Email:
To: Current Premie
Subject: Re: Darshan Profits
Message:
Watch Maharaji in the most recent Amaroo series when there was dashan after a long time (except in Asia). He specifically requests that no one bring any letters etc. and that one should only come to darshan as simple respect. If they didn't want to, this was fine by him. You guys really need to get a little more current. Haven't you changed in the last 10 yrs.? Wow, I guess he's doing so well with direct deposit he doesn't need the envelopes. Good job. Thanks for keeping us current. Next time please use your real name and address. We like to keep our mailing list updated.
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Date: Fri, Dec 26, 1997 at 14:54:05 (EST)
Poster: John C
Email:
To: John Cavad
Subject: Re: Darshan Profits
Message:
I never thought this would be such a hot topic! Anyone out there ever actually sort out the envelopes with cash? Did you ever pocket a piece of the action when no one was looking?
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Date: Fri, Dec 26, 1997 at 15:00:59 (EST)
Poster: current premie
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: Darshan Profits
Message:
Watch Maharaji in the most recent Amaroo series when there was dashan after a long time (except in Asia). He specifically requests that no one bring any letters etc. and that one should only come to darshan as simple respect. If they didn't want to, this was fine by him. You guys really need to get a little more current. Haven't you changed in the last 10 yrs.? In response to these supposed 'changes' I don't recall anyone ever being forced to go to darshan, and I don't recall that anyone was be punished if they didn't go, although one's devotion would certainly have been questioned if another premie, initiator, etc found out. So, saying it was okay if you don't want to is a little mealy mouthed if you ask me, especially when the whole melieu of a program is worhsip of Maharaji. He doesn't want 'letters' anymore? Is that because it's time-consuming to sort the cash from the letters? Did he say NOT to give MONEY at darshan? Somehow I think not. JW He did not specifically mention money. Gee, in over 25 yrs. I've never given money in darshan and it never occurred to me...... shame, shame.
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Date: Fri, Dec 26, 1997 at 15:02:44 (EST)
Poster: Pat Strong
Email:
To: John Cavad
Subject: Re: Darshan Profits
Message:
Watch Maharaji in the most recent Amaroo series when there was dashan after a long time (except in Asia). He specifically requests that no one bring any letters etc. and that one should only come to darshan as simple respect. If they didn't want to, this was fine by him. You guys really need to get a little more current. Haven't you changed in the last 10 yrs.? Wow, I guess he's doing so well with direct deposit he doesn't need the envelopes. Good job. Thanks for keeping us current. Next time please use your real name and address. We like to keep our mailing list updated. Please don't send me any mail.
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Date: Fri, Dec 26, 1997 at 15:40:18 (EST)
Poster: d.e.
Email: **
To: JW
Subject: c.a. (Re: Darshan Profits)
Message:
believe it or not maharji is a distributer of nsa water purification products. One guy who's name I fergit but he is asian looking asked m to sign up ahead of him as an NSA distributer. So this guy has m for a multi level up line and he called around trying to get us all to sell NSA water pureifiers. If you want to be a NSA water pureifier distributer with m in your up line the chance is there. Of course this might be m's only real job, as a NSA distributer. I don't know if you remember nsa was investigated for it's marketing (4) techniques by different states attorney generals. They would push you to buy 25 units then tell you all you have to do is set them up for free in peoples homes and they will eventually buy them because they will like them so much. Of course nsa sells the charcoal GRANUlAR style, not the much more effective solid carbon block type. I told them this and they said well, the solid carbon might break. Forgetting that the units are not moved and the chance of them breaking is nil. Amtext is a company where premies drive around to college campuses to buy books from the teachers that they are not going to use, the teachers get them free from the manufacturers and amtext buys them and resells them. Also there is deca in miami. jw, you thought it was done? they make aircraft chairs. among other things. And the grocery stores are scattered around unless they were sold.
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Date: Fri, Dec 26, 1997 at 16:40:30 (EST)
Poster: Mr. Oxymoron
Email: mu
To: John Cavad
Subject: Re: Darshan Profits
Message:
I almost forgot about the envelope we had to offer filled with money immediately before Darshan. (Damn, I did give lots of money directly to GMJ and completely forgot about it!!!) Darshan is a great money maker for GMJ, don't you all agree? QUESTION: What is the average donation per premie on Darshan? (please don't say 'it depends, or it's individual.') There's always an average. Many premies I knew gave about 10 to 20 USA dollars. I know some that gave $100 or more, but that was the exception. How many people attend a program these days? How much money do you think he earns per year on darshan alone? No wonder why this man travels the world so much: it pays overtime too! what - I hired as a pimp for my hos. whats he doin gettin loot and toe kissen and not cuttin me in on it?
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Date: Fri, Dec 26, 1997 at 17:02:43 (EST)
Poster: Mr Ex
Email:
To: John Cavad
Subject: Re: Darshan Profits
Message:
NSA : Prentice Ushida is supposed to be the manager. He lives in CA. He is a close friend of Maharaji, most of the time with him. His business makes millions profits. I think details over this company are public and could easily be obtained. Amtext Inc. : Manager Chuck Nathan Like P Ushida, close friend of Maharaji. Profits : 20 to 50 millions very likely/year Details : could easily be obtained Main office in Miami Florida, on Biscayne Blvd Premies are strongly influenced to participate in these companies. These companies have branches in many countries. it looks like Amtext is now selling books also in Russia to government, because they lack these technical books. For millions $. Dick Regan (UK) has taken over this new branch.
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Date: Fri, Dec 26, 1997 at 17:42:12 (EST)
Poster: Amy Vanderbelt
Email:
To: Mr. Oxymoron
Subject: Re: Darshan Profits
Message:
Does GMJ adhere to proper etiquette? Does he always mail thank you cards to those who send him gifts in a timely manner? Or perhaps, he believes it's the "grace" that thanks those that give?!!!!
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Date: Fri, Dec 26, 1997 at 18:19:38 (EST)
Poster: John K.
Email:
To: Amy Vanderbelt
Subject: Re: Darshan Profits
Message:
I am trying to think if I ever got a thank you note... nope, I really don't think so. but you know that would be expecting m to act like a normal human being in normal society. When I was giving him whatever it was I was giving him, he was posing as the superior power in person and I was claiming that he was.. That's NOT your typical relationship. Now perhaps he is not posing as the superior power in person and maybe now he does send thank you notes.
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Date: Fri, Dec 26, 1997 at 18:25:02 (EST)
Poster: Mr Ex
Email:
To: John K.
Subject: Re: Darshan Profits
Message:
If and when it will be known that all these millions books, given every year by teachers of schools and universities to Amtext, are sold to finance Elan Vital�s cult, Mr PPR will be dead broke in a matter of weeks. This income is an absolute necessity for Mr Lotus-feet. That could be publicized by the press, or to schools, universities and teachers. Some people of course might be hold responsible for a holy heart attack, or a mind-blowing delirium tremens. I�m sorry but I don�t pity the broke gurus. I pity those poor premies who gave loans to Elan Vital. Mr Yuram Weisz will have a hard time polishing his new satsang for these ripped-off people. He might then send you something else ..... BTW : I got some 'thank you' notes, almost every year. He does send them to every participating premie .... I might even receive one very soon, I HOPE !!! I'll post a copy.
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Date: Fri, Dec 26, 1997 at 19:22:15 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email: don't bother
To: current premie
Subject: Re: Darshan Profits
Message:
Watch Maharaji in the most recent Amaroo series when there was dashan after a long time (except in Asia). He specifically requests that no one bring any letters etc. and that one should only come to darshan as simple respect. If they didn't want to, this was fine by him. You guys really need to get a little more current. Haven't you changed in the last 10 yrs.? In response to these supposed 'changes' I don't recall anyone ever being forced to go to darshan, and I don't recall that anyone was be punished if they didn't go, although one's devotion would certainly have been questioned if another premie, initiator, etc found out. So, saying it was okay if you don't want to is a little mealy mouthed if you ask me, especially when the whole melieu of a program is worhsip of Maharaji. He doesn't want 'letters' anymore? Is that because it's time-consuming to sort the cash from the letters? Did he say NOT to give MONEY at darshan? Somehow I think not. JW He did not specifically mention money. Gee, in over 25 yrs. I've never given money in darshan and it never occurred to me...... shame, shame. It never occurred to you to give money? In over 25 years|? Let me see if I'm getting this right -- you're saying that you went to the same programs I went to in the seventies, heard the same satsang, got offered the same envelopes, walked by the same donation boxes on the runway to the 'tunnel of love', etc. etc. .... and never even thought of giving a donation? Never even crossed your mind? You, my friend, are a LIAR!!!
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Date: Fri, Dec 26, 1997 at 22:14:15 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email: joger02@aol.com
To: d.e.
Subject: Re: c.a. (Re: Darshan Profits)
Message:
This is too funny. Re NSA. When I bought my house there was an NSA (yes, Natinonal Safety Association) water filter installed under the sink for drinking water. Last year I had an addition put on my house and they redid some of the plumbing so I decided to replace the water filter. So, I called the company in Memphis, Tennessee and ordered a new filter. It cost $250 and I installed it myself. I knew there better filters, but since the connections were all set up, I just wanted to do the easy thing and just replace what was there. The filters are big and clunky and use granules. It's a very outdated product. This was last June. Anyhow, about three weeks later it sprung a leak. It was defective. I called NSA and complained and they said I would have to ship the filter back. I became the irate customer and demanded they send me a new one. Well, they did, and that one leaks TOOOOOO!!!! I'm now on the THIRD water filter and so far (about three weeks) it hasn't leaked. Too bad, I guess because I went through the main company M didn't get any comission. Maybe I should call HIM up and complain!!!!! I also plan to ask NSA the next time I will undoubtedly be complaining to them if they have anything to do with the Lord of the Universe! Maybe they can connect me directly to him. JW
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Date: Fri, Dec 26, 1997 at 22:22:39 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email: joger02@aol.com
To: d.e.
Subject: Re: c.a. (Re: Darshan Profits)
Message:
I recall the book buying business. It started out as just some premies doing it and it spread accross the country. When I was ashram housefather, we had a group of ashram premies who did it. They used to talk about how some professors would throw them out as they considered it unethical. And it IS technically illegal, because the author gets ripped off for royalties for books that get res-sold but were not meant for sale (authors contracts only allow so many "sample" books) in the first place, but end up being re-sold. How much do premies get paid who work in the book buying business? Do they get a percentage? And what happened to the grocery stores. In Chicago, I was on the board of Rainbow Grocery and we opened a second store in the North end of town. I also helped support the ashram premies who worked there for sub-minimum wages. We also opened a new Premark store in Miami when I was CC, and there were stores in Atlanta, Boston, Malibu and Denver. Maybe other places too. The Rainbow Grocery in San Francisco became a very successful coop, just moved to a beautiful new location, and has nothing to do with M. Do people actually BUY the airline seats Deca makes? God help us all and stick to the ground! JW
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Date: Sat, Dec 27, 1997 at 04:21:59 (EST)
Poster: Mr Ex
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: c.a. (Re: Darshan Profits)
Message:
This is too funny. Re NSA. When I bought my house there was an NSA (yes, Natinonal Safety Association) water filter installed under the sink for drinking water. Last year I had an addition put on my house and they redid some of the plumbing so I decided to replace the water filter. So, I called the company in Memphis, Tennessee and ordered a new filter. It cost $250 and I installed it myself. I knew there better filters, but since the connections were all set up, I just wanted to do the easy thing and just replace what was there. The filters are big and clunky and use granules. It's a very outdated product. This was last June. Anyhow, about three weeks later it sprung a leak. It was defective. I called NSA and complained and they said I would have to ship the filter back. I became the irate customer and demanded they send me a new one. Well, they did, and that one leaks TOOOOOO!!!! I'm now on the THIRD water filter and so far (about three weeks) it hasn't leaked. Too bad, I guess because I went through the main company M didn't get any comission. Maybe I should call HIM up and complain!!!!! I also plan to ask NSA the next time I will undoubtedly be complaining to them if they have anything to do with the Lord of the Universe! Maybe they can connect me directly to him. JW I feel verry sorry for you JW, but you are still giving money to Mr Rawat! The price they sell their items is about 2 to 4 time the regular price of more uptodate products. Their water and air filters are big shells with almost nothing in it!
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Date: Sat, Dec 27, 1997 at 05:38:22 (EST)
Poster: Mr Ex
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: c.a. (Re: Darshan Profits)
Message:
I found some interesting information ..... (sorry for your filter device) From : Department of Consumer Affairs Caveat Emptor (Buyer Beware) Caveat Emptor is a list of 144 businesses that have not satisfactorily responded to the Tennessee Division of Consumer Affairs provided by the consumer. At least two attempts were made to contact the business, the second attempt being a certified letter. The division is publishing this list to help consumers be more aware of businesses who have an unsatisfactory record in handling complaints and to encourage businesses to respond in a timely manner to the division when presented with consumer complaints. ................. National Safety Assoc., 4260 E. Raines Road, Memphisn, TN, 38118, Business Opportunity ................. For more information about CAVEAT EMPTOR or any other inquiries contact the Tennessee Division of Consumer Affairs at any of the numbers listed below. Call: 800.342.8385 615.741.4737 Write: 500 James Robertson Parkway Nashville, TN 37243 e-mail: dca@mail.state.tn.us. Internet Web Site: http://www.state.tn.us/consumer BTW : are there any known links between NSA and Herbalife? Many premies, including CC and lots of EV representatives are involved in the 'Herbalife' business. Is there a link between Herbalife and Mr Rawat ?
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Date: Sat, Dec 27, 1997 at 08:50:28 (EST)
Poster: Anon
Email:
To: Mr Ex
Subject: Re: NSA Water Filters (Re: Darshan Profits)
Message:
Just thought I'd add my two cents worth here. I bought an NSA water filter from a premie in the UK. After some time the entire bottom fell off flooding the kitchen! I don't intend to get another from them. The product is definately floored. I mean, the bottom of the unit just cracked apart and fell off of it's own accord! Whatever next! Anon
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Date: Sat, Dec 27, 1997 at 11:10:38 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: Mr Ex
Subject: Re: c.a. (Re: Darshan Profits)
Message:
I feel verry sorry for you JW, but you are still giving money to Mr Rawat! The price they sell their items is about 2 to 4 time the regular price of more uptodate products. Their water and air filters are big shells with almost nothing in it! Mr. Ex, can you explain more? I thought premies' involvement with NSA was in a kind of pyramid selling scheme. Are you saying M has some sort of ownership interest in the NSA company itself? If so, how did he get that and who gave him the crummy advice to invest in a company that makes defective, overpriced and outdated water filters? JW
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Date: Sat, Dec 27, 1997 at 13:41:40 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email: joger02@aol.com
To: Mr Ex
Subject: Re: Darshan Profits
Message:
NSA : Prentice Ushida is supposed to be the manager. He lives in CA. He is a close friend of Maharaji, most of the time with him. His business makes millions profits. I think details over this company are public and could easily be obtained. Amtext Inc. : Manager Chuck Nathan Like P Ushida, close friend of Maharaji. Profits : 20 to 50 millions very likely/year Details : could easily be obtained Main office in Miami Florida, on Biscayne Blvd Premies are strongly influenced to participate in these companies. These companies have branches in many countries. it looks like Amtext is now selling books also in Russia to government, because they lack these technical books. For millions $. Dick Regan (UK) has taken over this new branch. I assume that neither Amtext, nor NSA are publically held companies. In other words, any indication that public records have to be filed with the state and the SEC? Also, do you know if either organization is incorporated? I can research this myself, but I would be interested in seeing what is disclosed and not disclosed to the public and governmental units about who or what is behind these companies. How did Mr. Ushida get involved with M and, again, do you know if M has an actual ownership interest in NSA or Amtext? Mr. Ex, do you know of any other companies that M makes money off of? Thanks, this is very interesting. JW
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Date: Sat, Dec 27, 1997 at 15:05:59 (EST)
Poster: hand
Email: bb**buzzbee
To: Mr Ex
Subject: holding (Re: Darshan Profits)
Message:
There are award ceremonies now and the really big unprecedented news in the book buying world was that during the ceremony m waws there and the top bookseller was presented an award by m and he shook his hand and kept holding it for a long time as he continued talking. Shows how rare that kind of human interaction is when the lord holds someones hands and it is the really big news of the years.
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Date: Sat, Dec 27, 1997 at 20:24:30 (EST)
Poster: op
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: c.a. (Re: Darshan Profits)
Message:
This is too funny. Re NSA. When I bought my house there was an NSA (yes, Natinonal Safety Association) water filter installed under the sink for drinking water. Last year I had an addition put on my house and they redid some of the plumbing so I decided to replace the water filter. So, I called the company in Memphis, Tennessee and ordered a new filter. It cost $250 and I installed it myself. I knew there better filters, but since the connections were all set up, I just wanted to do the easy thing and just replace what was there. The filters are big and clunky and use granules. It's a very outdated product. This was last June. Anyhow, about three weeks later it sprung a leak. It was defective. I called NSA and complained and they said I would have to ship the filter back. I became the irate customer and demanded they send me a new one. Well, they did, and that one leaks TOOOOOO!!!! I'm now on the THIRD water filter and so far (about three weeks) it hasn't leaked. Too bad, I guess because I went through the main company M didn't get any comission. Maybe I should call HIM up and complain!!!!! I also plan to ask NSA the next time I will undoubtedly be complaining to them if they have anything to do with the Lord of the Universe! Maybe they can connect me directly to him. JW Too late. About 6 years too late. There were a few premies who got involved in NSA, but it wasn't lucrative and a lot of premies got stuck with a lot of unsold filters. Maybe you could hook up with one of them and get a discount. Most of the premies who did NSA did it to try to get money for themselves - housewives, people trying to freelance, etc. They sent no profits to M.
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Date: Sat, Dec 27, 1997 at 20:34:27 (EST)
Poster: op
Email:
To: hand
Subject: Re: holding (Re: Darshan Profits)
Message:
There are award ceremonies now and the really big unprecedented news in the book buying world was that during the ceremony m waws there and the top bookseller was presented an award by m and he shook his hand and kept holding it for a long time as he continued talking. Shows how rare that kind of human interaction is when the lord holds someones hands and it is the really big news of the years. wrong. No hand holding. Some other notes: The people who work for and with Amtext are not all premies. Those who work for and with Amtext make good profits and live very comfortably on them. Amtext does not resell the books, but provides them for international used book companies. There is nothing illegal about Amtext. The company and those who work with it pay their taxes. The company is squeaky clean.
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Date: Sat, Dec 27, 1997 at 22:05:07 (EST)
Poster: Sir David
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: op
Subject: Re: c.a. (Re: Darshan Profits)
Message:
I just want to correct one misunderstanding regarding the multi level water filter business. The premies who purchased to the filters with the aim of selling them had already sent money to Maharaji if Maharaji is at the top of the multilevel pyramid. Multilevel marketing is great for the people at the top of the pyramid - they just cannot lose. The people further down the pyramid may show a loss but that doesn't affect the people up line who have already taken their commission from the sales of the stock to the people who have made a loss. ______________________ In my view, multilevel marketing is a rip off. It runs on the same principal as a chain letter. It is impossible for everybody to make a good profit but if you can recruit enough people downline then even if the product doesn't in the end sell very well to the public, the people (i.e. suckers) recruited downline will ensure profits for those upline. For multilevel marketing to work for everybody it has to grow exponentially - and that requires an infinite number of people to take part.
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Date: Sun, Dec 28, 1997 at 00:44:50 (EST)
Poster: op
Email:
To: Mr Ex
Subject: Re: Darshan Profits
Message:
Hi Mr Ex: BTW : I got some 'thank you' notes, almost every year. He does send them to every participating premie... I was going to mention that. Thanks for bringing it up. I know some people who have been saving their thank-you letters, pictures, etc. for about 10 years. So maybe you guys just quit a little to early to be in on that side of things. As for Amtext - to expand on what I mentioned above: Amtext is not an exclusively premie business. Neither is it a business invented by premies, nor are all the people who buy books from colleges related to Amtext. The business is a very large and international one, and Amtext is just a bit of it. Those who work in the business are not drones or peons - they make quite a decent amount of money and have to manage their finances well, or it just doesn't work out for them. BTW - the books are not 'given' by teachers; they are also well reimbursed.
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Date: Sun, Dec 28, 1997 at 02:55:58 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email:
To: op & Mr. Ex
Subject: Amtext (Re: Darshan Profits)
Message:
Those who work in the business are not drones or peons - they make quite a decent amount of money and have to manage their finances well, or it just doesn't work out for them. BTW - the books are not 'given' by teachers; they are also well reimbursed. Re Amtext: If people are buying "sample" books sent to professors by publishers, then that is wrong. The professors shouldn't be selling them in the first place. They are sent the books for free in hopes that they will use them in a class, or recommend them to another professor who will use them. I don't think it's legal (or correct, for that matter) for these books to be sold as "used" books, if that is what is happening. BTW I happen to know people who write textbooks. The authors don't make very much money on them, and if this company is taking sample books and reselling them somewhere else, then they are definitely ripping off the original authors of the textbooks.
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Date: Sun, Dec 28, 1997 at 10:20:51 (EST)
Poster: Sir David
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: op
Subject: Re: holding (Re: Darshan Profits)
Message:
OP said, " Amtext does not resell the books, but provides them for international used book companies." Well exuse me for being pedantic here but providing books to used book companies does actually involve selling the book wholesale to these companies. They don't give them away free otherwise they wouldn't make a profit.
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Date: Sun, Dec 28, 1997 at 11:23:05 (EST)
Poster: Brian
Email:
To: Katie
Subject: Re: Amtext (Re: Darshan Profits)
Message:
BTW I happen to know people who write textbooks. The authors don't make very much money on them, and if this company is taking sample books and reselling them somewhere else, then they are definitely ripping off the original authors of the textbooks. I don't agree with you on this point, Katie. If I get a hand cream sample in the mail and I sell it to my neighbor for one dollar, she's made the decision that the product has value to her. She'll use it and perhaps buy more from the manufacturer (the intended result). Whether the author of these samples is paid by their publisher for the sample books or not is a matter between the author and publisher. In the meanwhile, the books are out there being used, are displacing Brand-X books, a value is being assigned to them in the process, and demand is (hopefully) being created for them. That's how the publishers play the game. The issue is whether or not those selling the books to Amtext know or care that some of the proceeds will go towards financing MJ's cult.
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Date: Sun, Dec 28, 1997 at 13:18:45 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Brian
Subject: Re: Amtext (Re: Darshan Profits)
Message:
BTW I happen to know people who write textbooks. The authors don't make very much money on them, and if this company is taking sample books and reselling them somewhere else, then they are definitely ripping off the original authors of the textbooks. I don't agree with you on this point, Katie. If I get a hand cream sample in the mail and I sell it to my neighbor for one dollar, she's made the decision that the product has value to her. She'll use it and perhaps buy more from the manufacturer (the intended result). Whether the author of these samples is paid by their publisher for the sample books or not is a matter between the author and publisher. In the meanwhile, the books are out there being used, are displacing Brand-X books, a value is being assigned to them in the process, and demand is (hopefully) being created for them. That's how the publishers play the game. The issue is whether or not those selling the books to Amtext know or care that some of the proceeds will go towards financing MJ's cult. You may be right, Brian - I'm not completely sure of the intricacies of the author-publisher relationship. I do wonder what the people who "collect" these books tell the persons (professors?) who they are collecting them from. Do they pay for the books only if they have to, or do they get them for free by posing as a charitable endeavour? Why do they say that they are collecting books? Does anyone know?
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Date: Sun, Dec 28, 1997 at 18:13:01 (EST)
Poster: Mr Ex
Email:
To: op
Subject: Re: Darshan Profits
Message:
How much you lie MAKES ME SICK. This Amtext business was created by a premie in the 70s The guy was actually ripped off and kicked out of his business by friends of m. People of that time remember the facts very well, and it will be confirmed by others. Why do you need to protect m so much? If he is not involved at all in any of this, no need to say anything! The truth is that he is managing these businesses and gets most of his income from them. The day tis fact will be public knowledge, Mr PPR will be dead broke. This is a fact.
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Date: Sun, Dec 28, 1997 at 21:43:28 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: Sir David
Subject: Re: c.a. (Re: Darshan Profits)
Message:
I just want to correct one misunderstanding regarding the multi level water filter business. The premies who purchased to the filters with the aim of selling them had already sent money to Maharaji if Maharaji is at the top of the multilevel pyramid. Multilevel marketing is great for the people at the top of the pyramid - they just cannot lose. The people further down the pyramid may show a loss but that doesn't affect the people up line who have already taken their commission from the sales of the stock to the people who have made a loss. ______________________ In my view, multilevel marketing is a rip off. It runs on the same principal as a chain letter. It is impossible for everybody to make a good profit but if you can recruit enough people downline then even if the product doesn't in the end sell very well to the public, the people (i.e. suckers) recruited downline will ensure profits for those upline. For multilevel marketing to work for everybody it has to grow exponentially - and that requires an infinite number of people to take part. David, do you know if this scheme is still going on, with M at the top of the pyramid. I'm not surprised people got stuck with unsold filters, because it's outdated technology.
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Date: Sun, Dec 28, 1997 at 23:29:59 (EST)
Poster: beat me
Email: buzzbee
To: Mr Ex
Subject: daddy (Re: Darshan Profits)
Message:
I am expecially fond of the lines; 'The people around maharaji did the bad stuff.' 'PAM' And the new; 'The premies from 1971 made up the bahari singh stories.' You know, mainly the one about him being a murderer earlier in his life and that shri hans knew it yet allowed him to be his driver and bodygaurd. Perhaps that is the only known hindu story that might possibly indicate forgiveness or redemption, but hinduism doesn't have that in it at all. Shri hans of course wasn't big on forgiveness, surely you know from maharajs' own mouth about how his father would repeatedly beat this one guy with a stick even though the guy was not at his fathers house or events, If dear old dad would see the guy he would have his murderer bodygaurd stop the car and shri hans would beat the guy with his walking stick. This was of course explained as a great blessing and the victim was being saved from god knows what.
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Date: Mon, Dec 29, 1997 at 02:08:55 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email: joger02@aol.com
To: Brian
Subject: Re: Amtext (Re: Darshan Profits)
Message:
BTW I happen to know people who write textbooks. The authors don't make very much money on them, and if this company is taking sample books and reselling them somewhere else, then they are definitely ripping off the original authors of the textbooks. I don't agree with you on this point, Katie. If I get a hand cream sample in the mail and I sell it to my neighbor for one dollar, she's made the decision that the product has value to her. She'll use it and perhaps buy more from the manufacturer (the intended result). Whether the author of these samples is paid by their publisher for the sample books or not is a matter between the author and publisher. In the meanwhile, the books are out there being used, are displacing Brand-X books, a value is being assigned to them in the process, and demand is (hopefully) being created for them. That's how the publishers play the game. The issue is whether or not those selling the books to Amtext know or care that some of the proceeds will go towards financing MJ's cult. That's not completely correct, Brian. There is a copyright violation here, although probably a technical one. When an author writes a book, the contract allows the publisher to produce and give away a certain number, and only a certain number, of sample books to people like college professors who might assign them to their classes. The author gets no royalty on that book and the publisher doesn't get anything either. It would be illegal for the purchaser to turn around and re-sell the sample book for a profit, especially if the practice is multiplied by thousands through the purchse of other sample books. This is because when the book gets beyond the middlemen to the end-user, that end-user is now not buying a "new" book or a used book on which royalties have been collected, and is instead buying one of those sample books. They are not just given or sold to the end-user as a "sample," they are basically consumed. So, the author is being cheated out of royalties. And that process really is illegal under the copyright laws. I doubt if the law is enforced, however. This is why I remember some premies were thrown out of professors' offices as unethical scoundrels. The books are sold to companys that trade in used books. They are not informed of (and probabaly don't ask about ) that they are receiving not "used" books, but "sample" books. Even back when lots of ashram premies were doing the book-buying business, we all knew it was technically illegal. JW JW
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Date: Mon, Dec 29, 1997 at 03:09:16 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: JW
Subject: Re: Amtext (Re: Darshan Profits)
Message:
BTW I happen to know people who write textbooks. The authors don't make very much money on them, and if this company is taking sample books and reselling them somewhere else, then they are definitely ripping off the original authors of the textbooks. I don't agree with you on this point, Katie. If I get a hand cream sample in the mail and I sell it to my neighbor for one dollar, she's made the decision that the product has value to her. She'll use it and perhaps buy more from the manufacturer (the intended result). Whether the author of these samples is paid by their publisher for the sample books or not is a matter between the author and publisher. In the meanwhile, the books are out there being used, are displacing Brand-X books, a value is being assigned to them in the process, and demand is (hopefully) being created for them. That's how the publishers play the game. The issue is whether or not those selling the books to Amtext know or care that some of the proceeds will go towards financing MJ's cult. That's not completely correct, Brian. There is a copyright violation here, although probably a technical one. When an author writes a book, the contract allows the publisher to produce and give away a certain number, and only a certain number, of sample books to people like college professors who might assign them to their classes. The author gets no royalty on that book and the publisher doesn't get anything either. It would be illegal for the purchaser to turn around and re-sell the sample book for a profit, especially if the practice is multiplied by thousands through the purchse of other sample books. This is because when the book gets beyond the middlemen to the end-user, that end-user is now not buying a 'new' book or a used book on which royalties have been collected, and is instead buying one of those sample books. They are not just given or sold to the end-user as a 'sample,' they are basically consumed. So, the author is being cheated out of royalties. And that process really is illegal under the copyright laws. I doubt if the law is enforced, however. This is why I remember some premies were thrown out of professors' offices as unethical scoundrels. The books are sold to companys that trade in used books. They are not informed of (and probabaly don't ask about ) that they are receiving not 'used' books, but 'sample' books. Even back when lots of ashram premies were doing the book-buying business, we all knew it was technically illegal. JW JW Thanks for the clarification, Joe. Another point I want to make is that professors (or teachers, or whatever) who are employed by US state governments are really not allowed to accept money personally for these books. They receive these books as a representative of the government, so any money that is made from reselling them should accrue to the government. Otherwise, it's technically illegal, and a professor could technically get fired for it, although I doubt if that would actually happen. By the way, it really makes me angry that people would do this sample book-buying thing. Maybe it's just because I work at a university (tempest in a teapot, etc.), but it still makes me mad.
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Date: Mon, Dec 29, 1997 at 14:08:08 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: op
Subject: Re: holding (Re: Darshan Profits)
Message:
No hand holding. Some other notes: The people who work for and with Amtext are not all premies. Those who work for and with Amtext make good profits and live very comfortably on them. Amtext does not resell the books, but provides them for international used book companies. There is nothing illegal about Amtext. The company and those who work with it pay their taxes. The company is squeaky clean. First, I agree with David that Amtext has to sell the books in order to make any money, has to resell the books to make any money, so your statement that it just "provides" them to used book companies is nonsensical. As to this and the other information about Amtext, on what personal knowledge do you base your statements, including that it's finances are "squeaky clean?" Have you personally reviewed the books of Amtext?
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Date: Mon, Dec 29, 1997 at 21:24:56 (EST)
Poster: Sir David
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: c.a. (Re: Darshan Profits)
Message:
I don't know anything about the scheme. All I do know is that multilevel marketing, in any shape or form, is a scam. By the way, I rarely view the forum this far down so if you want to continue about this perhaps you could post something above?
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Date: Tues, Dec 30, 1997 at 09:07:20 (EST)
Poster: anon
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: Amtext (Re: Darshan Profits)
Message:
BTW I happen to know people who write textbooks. The authors don't make very much money on them, and if this company is taking sample books and reselling them somewhere else, then they are definitely ripping off the original authors of the textbooks. I don't agree with you on this point, Katie. If I get a hand cream sample in the mail and I sell it to my neighbor for one dollar, she's made the decision that the product has value to her. She'll use it and perhaps buy more from the manufacturer (the intended result). Whether the author of these samples is paid by their publisher for the sample books or not is a matter between the author and publisher. In the meanwhile, the books are out there being used, are displacing Brand-X books, a value is being assigned to them in the process, and demand is (hopefully) being created for them. That's how the publishers play the game. The issue is whether or not those selling the books to Amtext know or care that some of the proceeds will go towards financing MJ's cult. That's not completely correct, Brian. There is a copyright violation here, although probably a technical one. When an author writes a book, the contract allows the publisher to produce and give away a certain number, and only a certain number, of sample books to people like college professors who might assign them to their classes. The author gets no royalty on that book and the publisher doesn't get anything either. It would be illegal for the purchaser to turn around and re-sell the sample book for a profit, especially if the practice is multiplied by thousands through the purchse of other sample books. This is because when the book gets beyond the middlemen to the end-user, that end-user is now not buying a 'new' book or a used book on which royalties have been collected, and is instead buying one of those sample books. They are not just given or sold to the end-user as a 'sample,' they are basically consumed. So, the author is being cheated out of royalties. And that process really is illegal under the copyright laws. I doubt if the law is enforced, however. This is why I remember some premies were thrown out of professors' offices as unethical scoundrels. The books are sold to companys that trade in used books. They are not informed of (and probabaly don't ask about ) that they are receiving not 'used' books, but 'sample' books. Even back when lots of ashram premies were doing the book-buying business, we all knew it was technically illegal. JW JW I write material which gets freely distributed to companies for their use. They are legally supposed to pay if they use the material. If they choose to resell the product to whoever, I get nothing. I believe it is unethical for premies (who are supposed to be considerate people, after all they do preach about truth) to undertake to these sort of business practices. It is, in my opinion, scraping the barrel. Can't they provide a useful service which doesn't upset anyone's feelings (visa: the authors) for once? I think it is telling that the professors threw some of these premies out on unethical grounds. Good for them! My publisher told me that I receive a fraction of the income I should because of piracy, so I feel quite strongly about this. The book selling thing may well be perfectly legal but I wonder how the authors feel!
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Ex-Premie.Org	Forum II Archive # 2
From: Dec 9, 1997	To: Dec 30, 1997	Page: 1 Of: 5