Ex-Premie.Org

Forum II Archive # 3

From: Dec 31, 1997

To: Jan 20, 1998

Page: 4 Of: 5


bftb -:- To jim,katie ,jw... -:- Sat, Jan 3, 1998 at 23:45:40 (EST)
___Brother Russell -:- Re: To jim,katie ,jw... -:- Sat, Jan 3, 1998 at 23:53:22 (EST)
___Jim -:- Re: To jim,katie ,jw... -:- Sun, Jan 4, 1998 at 00:00:25 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: To jim,katie ,jw... -:- Sun, Jan 4, 1998 at 01:03:25 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: To jim,katie ,jw... -:- Sun, Jan 4, 1998 at 02:40:38 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: To jim,katie ,jw... -:- Sun, Jan 4, 1998 at 11:53:59 (EST)
___Mr Ex -:- Re: To jim,katie ,jw... -:- Sun, Jan 4, 1998 at 16:44:07 (EST)

Jim -:- Mili should leave -:- Sat, Jan 3, 1998 at 21:39:38 (EST)
___bftb -:- Re: Mili should leave -:- Sat, Jan 3, 1998 at 21:55:07 (EST)
___Mickey the Pharisee -:- Re: Mili should leave -:- Sat, Jan 3, 1998 at 22:31:09 (EST)
___A TRUE PRIMIE -:- Re: Mili should leave -:- Sat, Jan 3, 1998 at 22:52:42 (EST)
___Jim -:- Re: Mili should leave -:- Sat, Jan 3, 1998 at 23:01:56 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: Mili should leave -:- Sat, Jan 3, 1998 at 23:04:48 (EST)
___Jim -:- Re: Mili should leave -:- Sat, Jan 3, 1998 at 23:11:40 (EST)
___bftb -:- Re: Mili should leave -:- Sat, Jan 3, 1998 at 23:13:10 (EST)
___Sir David -:- Re: Mili should leave -:- Sat, Jan 3, 1998 at 23:54:58 (EST)
___Jim -:- here's mili's post w/ addresses -:- Sun, Jan 4, 1998 at 00:11:26 (EST)
___Brian -:- Re: Mili should leave -:- Sun, Jan 4, 1998 at 00:13:52 (EST)
___another bystander -:- Re: Mili should leave -:- Sun, Jan 4, 1998 at 00:14:17 (EST)
___Jim -:- here's what he said when they laughed at him -:- Sun, Jan 4, 1998 at 00:16:34 (EST)
___Sir David -:- You're on the list Katie -:- Sun, Jan 4, 1998 at 00:23:37 (EST)
___Tony M -:- Re: Mili should leave -:- Sun, Jan 4, 1998 at 02:09:33 (EST)
___A FAKE PREMIE -:- Re: Mili should leave -:- Sun, Jan 4, 1998 at 02:14:17 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: You're on the list Katie -:- Sun, Jan 4, 1998 at 02:48:42 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: here's what he said when they laughed at him -:- Sun, Jan 4, 1998 at 04:10:51 (EST)
___Jim -:- Re: here's what he said when they laughed at him -:- Sun, Jan 4, 1998 at 16:41:28 (EST)
___Jim -:- Re: Mili should leave -:- Sun, Jan 4, 1998 at 17:40:00 (EST)
___Brian -:- Re: here's what he said when they laughed at him -:- Mon, Jan 5, 1998 at 00:49:11 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: here's what he said when they laughed at him -:- Mon, Jan 5, 1998 at 12:28:45 (EST)

White Knigh -:- It's Like Time Stood Still !!! -:- Sat, Jan 3, 1998 at 20:04:32 (EST)
___immortal -:- game -:- Sat, Jan 3, 1998 at 20:16:23 (EST)
___White Knigh -:- Re: game -:- Sat, Jan 3, 1998 at 20:28:31 (EST)
___Gregg -:- Re: It's Like Time Stood Still !!! -:- Sat, Jan 3, 1998 at 20:40:55 (EST)
___White Knigh -:- Re: It's Like Time Stood Still !!! -:- Sat, Jan 3, 1998 at 21:06:45 (EST)
___Jim -:- Re: It's Like Time Stood Still !!! -:- Sat, Jan 3, 1998 at 21:18:43 (EST)
___White Knigh -:- Re: Jim -:- Sat, Jan 3, 1998 at 21:33:22 (EST)
___Jim -:- Re: Jim -:- Sat, Jan 3, 1998 at 21:48:55 (EST)
___White Knigh -:- Re: Jim -:- Sat, Jan 3, 1998 at 22:03:39 (EST)
___Jim -:- Re: Jim -:- Sat, Jan 3, 1998 at 22:06:47 (EST)
___John K. -:- Re: It's Like Time Stood Still !!! -:- Sat, Jan 3, 1998 at 22:17:28 (EST)
___White Knigh -:- Re: Jim -:- Sat, Jan 3, 1998 at 22:24:46 (EST)
___Jim -:- Re: Jim -:- Sat, Jan 3, 1998 at 22:38:11 (EST)
___White Knigh -:- Re: Jim -:- Sat, Jan 3, 1998 at 22:59:47 (EST)
___Jim -:- Re: Jim -:- Sat, Jan 3, 1998 at 23:27:35 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: Jim -:- Sun, Jan 4, 1998 at 03:57:33 (EST)

White Knigh -:- I Can'It's Like Time Stood Still !! -:- Sat, Jan 3, 1998 at 20:03:39 (EST)

Tony Madar -:- Just passin through.. -:- Sat, Jan 3, 1998 at 18:13:41 (EST)
___Nigel -:- Re: Just passin through.. -:- Sat, Jan 3, 1998 at 19:40:35 (EST)
___another -:- photon -:- Sat, Jan 3, 1998 at 20:19:57 (EST)
___Jim -:- Re: Just passin through.. -:- Sat, Jan 3, 1998 at 21:13:50 (EST)
___Tony Madar -:- Re: Just passin through.. -:- Sun, Jan 4, 1998 at 02:04:49 (EST)

Nigel -:- When the next master comes... -:- Sat, Jan 3, 1998 at 17:58:28 (EST)
___* -:- * -:- Sat, Jan 3, 1998 at 21:16:29 (EST)
___Jason -:- Re: When the next master comes... -:- Mon, Jan 5, 1998 at 22:16:57 (EST)
___Nigel -:- Re: When the next master comes... -:- Tues, Jan 6, 1998 at 20:34:30 (EST)

Nigel -:- Thoughts on possible resignation -:- Sat, Jan 3, 1998 at 16:27:53 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: Thoughts on possible resignation -:- Sat, Jan 3, 1998 at 21:36:13 (EST)
___Mickey the Pharisee -:- Re: Thoughts on possible resignation -:- Sat, Jan 3, 1998 at 22:29:07 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: Thoughts on possible resignation -:- Sun, Jan 4, 1998 at 04:07:04 (EST)

Mata Ji -:- I told you so! -:- Sat, Jan 3, 1998 at 10:46:42 (EST)

Mili -:- What M Really Said in Long Beach -:- Sat, Jan 3, 1998 at 05:18:48 (EST)
___Mr Ex -:- Re: What M Really Said in Long Beach -:- Sat, Jan 3, 1998 at 05:53:27 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: What M Really Said in Long Beach -:- Sat, Jan 3, 1998 at 06:59:29 (EST)
___Brian -:- Re: What M Really Said in Long Beach -:- Sat, Jan 3, 1998 at 07:13:39 (EST)
___Brian -:- Re: What M Really Said in Long Beach -:- Sat, Jan 3, 1998 at 07:27:20 (EST)
___op -:- Re: What M Really Said in Long Beach -:- Sat, Jan 3, 1998 at 09:44:25 (EST)
___* -:- * -:- Sat, Jan 3, 1998 at 12:01:07 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: What M Really Said in Long Beach -:- Sat, Jan 3, 1998 at 14:09:56 (EST)
___Darwin -:- Re: What M Really Said in Long Beach -:- Sat, Jan 3, 1998 at 14:11:39 (EST)
___CD -:- Re: What M Really Said in Long Beach -:- Sat, Jan 3, 1998 at 19:31:41 (EST)
___DV -:- D -:- Sat, Jan 3, 1998 at 21:26:18 (EST)

Mickey the Pharisee -:- Hey ,Kids!!! -:- Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 23:10:57 (EST)
___Jim -:- Mili's oafish nature -:- Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 23:22:28 (EST)
___Rick -:- Re: Hey ,Kids!!! -:- Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 23:26:10 (EST)
___Mickey the Pharisee -:- Re: Hey ,Kids!!! -:- Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 23:34:55 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: Hey ,Kids!!! -:- Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 23:41:34 (EST)
___CD -:- Re: Mili's oafish nature -:- Sat, Jan 3, 1998 at 19:50:43 (EST)

Jim -:- Exaggeration -:- Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 21:45:03 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: Exaggeration -:- Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 22:10:25 (EST)
___Rick -:- Re: Exaggeration -:- Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 22:54:59 (EST)
___Brian -:- Re: Exaggeration -:- Sat, Jan 3, 1998 at 06:57:26 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: Exaggeration -:- Sat, Jan 3, 1998 at 14:53:30 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: Exaggeration -:- Sat, Jan 3, 1998 at 14:56:32 (EST)
___Nigel -:- Re: Exaggeration -:- Sat, Jan 3, 1998 at 16:39:44 (EST)

Gregg -:- Self/Guru -:- Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 19:30:19 (EST)
___grabbing at -:- air -:- Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 19:55:03 (EST)
___Gregg -:- Re: air -:- Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 21:22:11 (EST)
___Sir David -:- Good can come of this -:- Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 21:27:15 (EST)
___Jim -:- Re: air -:- Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 21:37:43 (EST)
___Darwin from the void -:- Re: air -:- Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 22:38:21 (EST)
___Jim -:- Re: air -:- Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 23:03:02 (EST)
___Brian -:- Re: Good can come of this -:- Sat, Jan 3, 1998 at 06:52:56 (EST)
___And On Anand Ji -:- Re: air -:- Wed, Jan 7, 1998 at 09:02:37 (EST)

Jim -:- a few things before I have to split -:- Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 19:26:26 (EST)
___red hot -:- master -:- Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 20:15:08 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: a few things before I have to split -:- Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 20:46:02 (EST)
___Jim -:- Re: a few things before I have to split -:- Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 21:18:32 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: a few things before I have to split -:- Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 22:27:33 (EST)
___Katie -:- And one more thing -:- Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 22:32:36 (EST)
___Jim -:- Re: And one more thing -:- Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 22:52:29 (EST)
___Jim -:- Re: a few things before I have to split -:- Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 23:13:16 (EST)
___op, your local whirling dervish -:- Re: a few things before you split -:- Sat, Jan 3, 1998 at 00:15:50 (EST)
___Maliberry RFD -:- opie -:- Sat, Jan 3, 1998 at 00:31:40 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: And one more thing -:- Sat, Jan 3, 1998 at 01:01:17 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: a few things before I have to split -:- Sat, Jan 3, 1998 at 01:10:27 (EST)
___katy -:- did -:- Sat, Jan 3, 1998 at 03:13:57 (EST)
___Mr Ex -:- Re: a few things before I have to split -:- Sat, Jan 3, 1998 at 05:54:24 (EST)
___odl to you -:- Re: opie -:- Sat, Jan 3, 1998 at 09:36:10 (EST)
___maliberry RFD -:- OPIE -:- Sat, Jan 3, 1998 at 12:34:37 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: OPIE -:- Sat, Jan 3, 1998 at 13:03:03 (EST)
___Jim -:- Re: a few things before you split -:- Sat, Jan 3, 1998 at 22:02:46 (EST)
___op -:- Re: another longwinded post to come -:- Sun, Jan 4, 1998 at 01:57:31 (EST)
___Jim -:- Re: another longwinded post to come -:- Sun, Jan 4, 1998 at 15:39:06 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: another longwinded post to come -:- Sun, Jan 4, 1998 at 16:25:39 (EST)

John Cavad -:- Ashram ex-premies are hateful -:- Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 19:13:55 (EST)
___Jim -:- Re: Ashram ex-premies are hateful -:- Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 19:43:18 (EST)
___John Cavad -:- Re: Ashram ex-premies are hateful -:- Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 20:04:14 (EST)
___naughty -:- BUT nice -:- Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 20:40:44 (EST)
___Jim -:- Re: Ashram ex-premies are hateful -:- Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 22:00:43 (EST)
___Brian -:- Re: BUT nice -:- Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 23:30:18 (EST)
___seymour -:- Re: Ashram ex-premies are hateful -:- Sat, Jan 3, 1998 at 08:44:25 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: Ashram ex-premies are hateful -:- Sat, Jan 3, 1998 at 11:26:28 (EST)
___Tony -:- Re: Ashram ex-premies are hateful -:- Sat, Jan 3, 1998 at 17:49:59 (EST)
___Gosh-O- -:- Willikers -:- Sat, Jan 3, 1998 at 21:31:09 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: Ashram ex-premies are hateful -:- Sun, Jan 4, 1998 at 00:24:27 (EST)

Kathryn -:- How to identify bill burke's posts -:- Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 19:03:34 (EST)
___freak -:- will -:- Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 21:19:06 (EST)
___Katie -:- True poetry -:- Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 22:07:26 (EST)
___Brian -:- Re: True poetry -:- Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 23:20:26 (EST)

John Cavad -:- GMJ's Health: Good or Bad? -:- Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 17:10:08 (EST)

John Cavad -:- Finding Closure -:- Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 12:19:43 (EST)
___John K. -:- Re: Finding Closure -:- Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 13:02:22 (EST)
___John Cavad -:- Re: Finding Closure -:- Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 13:20:14 (EST)
___Gregg -:- Re: Finding Closure -:- Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 19:21:20 (EST)
___Jim -:- Re: Finding Closure -:- Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 20:11:15 (EST)
___Seymour -:- Re: Finding Closure -:- Sat, Jan 3, 1998 at 07:58:45 (EST)
___Andrew -:- Re: Finding Closure -:- Mon, Jan 5, 1998 at 23:05:03 (EST)
___Brian -:- Re: Finding Closure -:- Tues, Jan 6, 1998 at 08:30:37 (EST)

John Cavad -:- Fatalist -:- Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 12:07:43 (EST)
___Bobby -:- Re: Fatalist -:- Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 12:48:03 (EST)
___op -:- Re: Fatalist -:- Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 19:02:55 (EST)
___Jim -:- Re: Fatalist -:- Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 19:53:39 (EST)
___Rick -:- Re: Fatalist -:- Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 22:51:40 (EST)

John Cavad -:- Distorted Perception -:- Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 11:32:58 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: Distorted Perception -:- Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 13:42:55 (EST)
___John K. -:- Re: Distorted Perception -:- Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 14:24:03 (EST)
___John -:- Re: Distorted Perception -:- Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 14:38:46 (EST)
___John K. -:- Re: Distorted Perception -:- Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 14:54:39 (EST)
___John Cavad -:- Re: Distorted Perception -:- Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 16:55:28 (EST)
___Seymour -:- Re: Distorted Perception -:- Sat, Jan 3, 1998 at 08:05:12 (EST)
___Brian -:- Re: Distorted Perception -:- Sat, Jan 3, 1998 at 08:30:05 (EST)

John Cavad -:- Message to Bobby -:- Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 10:52:42 (EST)
___Bobby -:- Re: Message to Bobby -:- Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 12:37:56 (EST)
___John Cavad -:- Re: Message to Bobby -:- Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 13:16:02 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: Message to Bobby -:- Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 18:33:37 (EST)
___message in a -:- bottle -:- Sat, Jan 3, 1998 at 02:48:22 (EST)
___Bobby -:- false assumptions -:- Sat, Jan 3, 1998 at 10:35:06 (EST)
___Bobby -:- Re: bottle -:- Sat, Jan 3, 1998 at 11:02:28 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: bottle -:- Sat, Jan 3, 1998 at 11:43:06 (EST)
___be -:- zorp -:- Sat, Jan 3, 1998 at 14:22:34 (EST)

Mr Ex -:- Maharaji likely to resign! -:- Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 03:13:00 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: Maharaji likely to resign! -:- Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 04:20:12 (EST)
___Mr Ex -:- Re: Maharaji likely to resign! -:- Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 04:32:15 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: Maharaji likely to resign! -:- Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 06:35:05 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: Maharaji likely to resign! -:- Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 11:13:58 (EST)
___John Cavad -:- Re: Maharaji likely to resign! -:- Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 11:53:14 (EST)
___Mr Ex -:- Re: Maharaji likely to resign! -:- Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 13:24:43 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: Maharaji likely to resign! -:- Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 13:27:31 (EST)
___Mr Ex -:- Re: Maharaji likely to resign! -:- Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 13:33:30 (EST)
___John Cavad -:- Re: Maharaji likely to resign! -:- Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 13:42:12 (EST)
___Sir David -:- Re: Maharaji likely to resign! -:- Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 13:43:12 (EST)
___Mickey the Pharisee -:- Re: Maharaji likely to resign! -:- Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 15:25:28 (EST)
___Mr Ex -:- Re: Maharaji likely to resign! -:- Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 15:26:18 (EST)
___Sir David -:- Re: Maharaji likely to resign! -:- Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 15:48:05 (EST)
___Who's next? -:- Re: Maharaji likely to resign! -:- Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 16:04:06 (EST)
___he is actually -:- charanand -:- Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 16:33:28 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: Maharaji likely to resign! -:- Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 23:19:59 (EST)
___when i'm -:- 64 -:- Sat, Jan 3, 1998 at 00:45:17 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: Maharaji likely to resign! -:- Sat, Jan 3, 1998 at 06:58:33 (EST)
___Brian -:- Re: Maharaji likely to resign! -:- Sat, Jan 3, 1998 at 07:41:09 (EST)
___And On Anand Ji -:- Abdicate (was "Re: Maharaji likely to resign!") -:- Tues, Jan 6, 1998 at 14:24:46 (EST)



Date: Sat, Jan 3, 1998 at 23:45:40 (EST)
Poster: bftb
Email:
To: Everyone
Subject: To jim,katie ,jw...
Message:
Giant leap required here: If M were to 'pull a krishnamurti',disband everything and proclaim himself to be just a human.And if he were to also adress all questions ex's have in a reasonable manner.And if he were to acknowledge in no uncertain terms the mistakes he's made and the demands he made upon you.And if he were to offer sincere apologies.... How would you feel?I know it wouldn't erase anything but would it give you a real satisfaction do you think?Would it lift a great burden? I'm sincere in this question because I have thought of the scenario basically in the context of trying to understand how the greatest healing can take place and what would best facilitate that healing.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jan 3, 1998 at 23:53:22 (EST)
Poster: Brother Russell
Email:
To: bftb
Subject: Re: To jim,katie ,jw...
Message:
Triumph
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jan 4, 1998 at 00:00:25 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: bftb
Subject: Re: To jim,katie ,jw...
Message:
Giant leap required here: If M were to 'pull a krishnamurti',disband everything and proclaim himself to be just a human.And if he were to also adress all questions ex's have in a reasonable manner.And if he were to acknowledge in no uncertain terms the mistakes he's made and the demands he made upon you.And if he were to offer sincere apologies.... How would you feel?I know it wouldn't erase anything but would it give you a real satisfaction do you think?Would it lift a great burden? I'm sincere in this question because I have thought of the scenario basically in the context of trying to understand how the greatest healing can take place and what would best facilitate that healing. Right, good question. First, bftb (?), a lot would depend on m's story. His REAL story could include nefarious twists no one's even thought about. Not saying that's the case necessarily, only that IF it were, I might think even less of him than I do now. Most likely, however, m's sincere apology would do a lot to quell my anger. I'm just guessing. This is the first cult I ever spent eight years in. He was my first Lord of the Universe. First person I ever tried to surrender my personality to. So, like I say, I'd have to play it out. My guess, though, is that I'd be willing to just call it a day. Reparations? No, I dont think we'd get into that. It would irk me, though, to think that he is STILL rich as hell on account of that same deceit that slowed me down. I wonder how much money I ever actually did give him? Apology is a powerful thing. Personally, I'm usually a sucker fo a sincere one. I wouldn't be satisfied, of course, until m wrote o called Dave Wiener's family and fnally acknowledged that his messiah trip was directly responsible for their son's death. (He was my ashram friend who hung himself whe he couldn't stop doubting that m was the Lord). God, first speculating about m's lila, now this. I'm not sure which one's more far out.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jan 4, 1998 at 01:03:25 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: bftb
Subject: Re: To jim,katie ,jw...
Message:
Giant leap required here: If M were to 'pull a krishnamurti',disband everything and proclaim himself to be just a human.And if he were to also adress all questions ex's have in a reasonable manner.And if he were to acknowledge in no uncertain terms the mistakes he's made and the demands he made upon you.And if he were to offer sincere apologies.... How would you feel?I know it wouldn't erase anything but would it give you a real satisfaction do you think?Would it lift a great burden? I'm sincere in this question because I have thought of the scenario basically in the context of trying to understand how the greatest healing can take place and what would best facilitate that healing. Yes, I think it would make me feel a lot better. I certainly would pull up my "this guy is a fraud" tent and move on. But he would have to do more than just do a Nixon and say "mistakes were made." He would have to take full responsiblity for them. And he would have to address former devotees as individuals. The reason this would probably make a lot of people feel better is that, at least for me, there is a place somewhere inside that still hopes the jerk might just have the balls to do the right thing. I don't believe that he has them, but since he was the absolute center of my life for almost 10 years, I would feel better knowing I was dedicated to someone who at least has a conscience and some amount of integrity. But as more time goes by, without his acknowledgment or acceptance of any responsibility whatsoever, his crimes only get worse and I think the likelihood of doing something like you suggest diminishes. If he could do it now, why not 15 years ago?. JW
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jan 4, 1998 at 02:40:38 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: bftb
Subject: Re: To jim,katie ,jw...
Message:
Giant leap required here: If M were to 'pull a krishnamurti',disband everything and proclaim himself to be just a human.And if he were to also adress all questions ex's have in a reasonable manner.And if he were to acknowledge in no uncertain terms the mistakes he's made and the demands he made upon you.And if he were to offer sincere apologies.... How would you feel?I know it wouldn't erase anything but would it give you a real satisfaction do you think?Would it lift a great burden? I'm sincere in this question because I have thought of the scenario basically in the context of trying to understand how the greatest healing can take place and what would best facilitate that healing. Good question, bftb. I'm always a sucker for an apology, and I'm sure it would make me feel better. I mean, I even feel sorry for Maharaji sometimes NOW. I don't really have a "great burden" as you say, because I didn't invest much of my life in following him. One thing that I think would "facilitate that healing" is for Maharaji to take some of his money and offer to pay for counseling/therapy for people who have been greatly damaged as a result of following him. I'm thinking particularly of some young children (not young anymore) who were sexually abused by a mahatma, but I am sure there are more people who could use a little help. P.S. I'd really like to know what Mr.Ex thinks of your proposition!
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jan 4, 1998 at 11:53:59 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email: joger02@aol.com
To: bftb
Subject: Re: To jim,katie ,jw...
Message:
Giant leap required here: If M were to 'pull a krishnamurti',disband everything and proclaim himself to be just a human.And if he were to also adress all questions ex's have in a reasonable manner.And if he were to acknowledge in no uncertain terms the mistakes he's made and the demands he made upon you.And if he were to offer sincere apologies.... How would you feel?I know it wouldn't erase anything but would it give you a real satisfaction do you think?Would it lift a great burden? I'm sincere in this question because I have thought of the scenario basically in the context of trying to understand how the greatest healing can take place and what would best facilitate that healing. I have one other comment on this interesting point. I think as Maharaji has gotten older he has gotten much more calculated. I think if he felt some sort of an admission and apology for the damage he caused to peoples' lives would help him more than hurt him, he would have done it. No matter how insincere it might be, I think he has concluded that is wouldn't help more than hurt. And by "help" I think that means help him in his toned-down goals. That is, maintain his lavish lifestyle through donations, selling videos and progams, and keeping a certain number of devotees who will worship him in the style to which he has become accustomed. These are much reduced goals from those he used to publicly advocate: bringing peace to the entire world, establishing a new millennium of peace, and establishing himself as the messiah of our time. I think he sees these as the ridiculous goals that they are and is just trying to hold a more limited trip together, probabaly since the 80s. An apology would probably help in the sense it might neutralize his troublesome past and quiet people like the ex-premies who post here, who, as more people find out there is a place to discuss what happened to them, will increasingly grow in number and be more vocal, become visible to the press, and dog him for as long as he tries to do what he does. The problem is that an admission of responsibility and an apology would probably mean many lawsuits and that would bankrupt him. Unfortunately, at least in the states, if you admit any liability, winning a lawsuit would be a piece of cake. On the other had the statue of limitations for most of us has probably run, so as time goes on, this might be less of a threat. I have no interest in a lawsuit, but others probably would do it and M would soon be forced to get a real job. Could you imagince that? JW
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jan 4, 1998 at 16:44:07 (EST)
Poster: Mr Ex
Email:
To: bftb
Subject: Re: To jim,katie ,jw...
Message:
Giant leap required here: If M were to 'pull a krishnamurti',disband everything and proclaim himself to be just a human.And if he were to also adress all questions ex's have in a reasonable manner.And if he were to acknowledge in no uncertain terms the mistakes he's made and the demands he made upon you.And if he were to offer sincere apologies.... How would you feel?I know it wouldn't erase anything but would it give you a real satisfaction do you think?Would it lift a great burden? I'm sincere in this question because I have thought of the scenario basically in the context of trying to understand how the greatest healing can take place and what would best facilitate that healing. As far as I'm concerned, whatever Mr PP Rawat would say as an excuse for all the harm he did to me or to anybody wouldn't help me to heal any of my wounds. That would mean that he's taking steps towards his own healing, good luck to him .... My healing is a private business, and I won't allow this guy to EVER play a role in my life. I might go out for dinner, or for a walk, with him, talk to him as I like to talk with some people. He is a very strange guy indeed. take a walk with the ex Lord of the Universe, how funny. That would make my day, but nothing more than that.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jan 3, 1998 at 21:39:38 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: Everyone
Subject: Mili should leave
Message:
Mili's recent attempt to shut down the newsgroup places him squarely in the Scientologist camp, trying to stifle all criticism and discussion. For those of you who weren't around a few months ago, Mili used to cohost the premie page. Once, when two premies got into a debate about whether m is God or not (one said of course he is, the other said that's ridiculous, that that was the very kind of talk that gave people the FALSE impression that m was a cult leader), Mili shut them down. And, of course, he never let any ex post a single thing there. But he kept posting here. When asked how he justified the obvious discrepency, he said that we claimed to offer a forum for free discussion about m. He was just taking advantage of it. Okay, fair enough. Boorish for sure, but there is an argument there. Now, however, we learn that Mili has actually tried to shut the newsgroup down. Who knows if he's also tried to shut down this site. Maybe he has. I can't see why he would try to stop one and not the other. It strikes me as compeltely unprincipalled for him to continue to participate here in the circumstances. One who tries to stop the election shouldn't get to vote. At least that's my opinion. What's yours? Katie, you've been pretty nice to Mili recently. Does this knowledge change anything for you? What do you think now? OP, your opinion? You always defend Mili, despite his boorishness. Let's have your fix on this one. How about you, Bobby? Mili's one of the only people here you seem to admire. What's YOUR take on his continuing participation in light of his secret attempts to shut down all talk about m?
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jan 3, 1998 at 21:55:07 (EST)
Poster: bftb
Email:
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Mili should leave
Message:
Mili's recent attempt to shut down the newsgroup places him squarely in the Scientologist camp, trying to stifle all criticism and discussion. For those of you who weren't around a few months ago, Mili used to cohost the premie page. Once, when two premies got into a debate about whether m is God or not (one said of course he is, the other said that's ridiculous, that that was the very kind of talk that gave people the FALSE impression that m was a cult leader), Mili shut them down. And, of course, he never let any ex post a single thing there. But he kept posting here. When asked how he justified the obvious discrepency, he said that we claimed to offer a forum for free discussion about m. He was just taking advantage of it. Okay, fair enough. Boorish for sure, but there is an argument there. Now, however, we learn that Mili has actually tried to shut the newsgroup down. Who knows if he's also tried to shut down this site. Maybe he has. I can't see why he would try to stop one and not the other. It strikes me as compeltely unprincipalled for him to continue to participate here in the circumstances. One who tries to stop the election shouldn't get to vote. At least that's my opinion. What's yours? Katie, you've been pretty nice to Mili recently. Does this knowledge change anything for you? What do you think now? OP, your opinion? You always defend Mili, despite his boorishness. Let's have your fix on this one. How about you, Bobby? Mili's one of the only people here you seem to admire. What's YOUR take on his continuing participation in light of his secret attempts to shut down all talk about m? Well;I'm quite surprised that he has the audacity to continue posting here.If he continues to post here he should at the very least explain why he tried to shut down the newsgroup,and how after doing so he feels comfortable posting?Just curious how he can do it.I don't think simple boorishness can explain this one. I for one do not think he or anyone else should be banned from posting.That would be stooping to his level,no? This forum is a truly democratic place and a fine example of the positive potential of free speech;let's not stifle what's said,no matter how unconscionable or idiotic.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jan 3, 1998 at 22:31:09 (EST)
Poster: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Mili should leave
Message:
I'm a bit angry with Mili right now, and I agree that he is one to actually stifle any real discussion, but I still believe in free speech; I think we need an apology and some penance before he posts again.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jan 3, 1998 at 22:52:42 (EST)
Poster: A TRUE PRIMIE
Email: jjames@aol.com
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Mili should leave
Message:
Mili's recent attempt to shut down the newsgroup places him squarely in the Scientologist camp, trying to stifle all criticism and discussion. For those of you who weren't around a few months ago, Mili used to cohost the premie page. Once, when two premies got into a debate about whether m is God or not (one said of course he is, the other said that's ridiculous, that that was the very kind of talk that gave people the FALSE impression that m was a cult leader), Mili shut them down. And, of course, he never let any ex post a single thing there. But he kept posting here. When asked how he justified the obvious discrepency, he said that we claimed to offer a forum for free discussion about m. He was just taking advantage of it. Okay, fair enough. Boorish for sure, but there is an argument there. Now, however, we learn that Mili has actually tried to shut the newsgroup down. Who knows if he's also tried to shut down this site. Maybe he has. I can't see why he would try to stop one and not the other. It strikes me as compeltely unprincipalled for him to continue to participate here in the circumstances. One who tries to stop the election shouldn't get to vote. At least that's my opinion. What's yours? Katie, you've been pretty nice to Mili recently. Does this knowledge change anything for you? What do you think now? OP, your opinion? You always defend Mili, despite his boorishness. Let's have your fix on this one. How about you, Bobby? Mili's one of the only people here you seem to admire. What's YOUR take on his continuing participation in light of his secret attempts to shut down all talk about m? JIM, NEXT YOU'LL SAY THAT MS MILLI KILLED KENNEDY AND LINCOLN! AND, HE WAS RESPONSIBLE FOR THE SAVINGS AND LOAN COLLAPSE. I THINK IT'S YOU THAT SHOULD LEAVE FOR TRYING TO STOP SOMEONE WHO DIFFERS FROM YOUR OPINION. SO FAR, ALL HE'S DONE IS DEFEND HIS GURU AND HIS LORD
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jan 3, 1998 at 23:01:56 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: A TRUE PRIMIE
Subject: Re: Mili should leave
Message:
Mili's recent attempt to shut down the newsgroup places him squarely in the Scientologist camp, trying to stifle all criticism and discussion. For those of you who weren't around a few months ago, Mili used to cohost the premie page. Once, when two premies got into a debate about whether m is God or not (one said of course he is, the other said that's ridiculous, that that was the very kind of talk that gave people the FALSE impression that m was a cult leader), Mili shut them down. And, of course, he never let any ex post a single thing there. But he kept posting here. When asked how he justified the obvious discrepency, he said that we claimed to offer a forum for free discussion about m. He was just taking advantage of it. Okay, fair enough. Boorish for sure, but there is an argument there. Now, however, we learn that Mili has actually tried to shut the newsgroup down. Who knows if he's also tried to shut down this site. Maybe he has. I can't see why he would try to stop one and not the other. It strikes me as compeltely unprincipalled for him to continue to participate here in the circumstances. One who tries to stop the election shouldn't get to vote. At least that's my opinion. What's yours? Katie, you've been pretty nice to Mili recently. Does this knowledge change anything for you? What do you think now? OP, your opinion? You always defend Mili, despite his boorishness. Let's have your fix on this one. How about you, Bobby? Mili's one of the only people here you seem to admire. What's YOUR take on his continuing participation in light of his secret attempts to shut down all talk about m? JIM, NEXT YOU'LL SAY THAT MS MILLI KILLED KENNEDY AND LINCOLN! AND, HE WAS RESPONSIBLE FOR THE SAVINGS AND LOAN COLLAPSE. I THINK IT'S YOU THAT SHOULD LEAVE FOR TRYING TO STOP SOMEONE WHO DIFFERS FROM YOUR OPINION. SO FAR, ALL HE'S DONE IS DEFEND HIS GURU AND HIS LORD As a matter of fact, I DO hold Mili responsible for some of the lesser assasinations of the twentieth century. ( I don't have enough to pin Kennedy on him, not entirely anyways, but we do know that Mili was alive when Kennedy died. He's never said anything about where he supposedly was then and, if his youth is supposedly some sort of cover for him, let's not forget those two kids that threw that other little kid off the balcony for not stealing candy for hem. Kids can kill too.) In fact, I'd say Mili was only maginally involved in the S&L collapse. So you're plainly exaggerating. Mili is not, by the way, defending his Lord. That's your program. Mili's defending his guru -- whom he strongly protests he's never considered 'Lord.' He's also defending is right to make fool of himself. You are apparently defending your right to use block letters and to misspell 'premie.' Mili, you should know, is a 'Mr.' By the way, ae you for real?
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jan 3, 1998 at 23:04:48 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Mili should leave
Message:
Jim - I tend to feel empathy for anyone who reveals personal feelings about themselves and their life on the forum, even if they're totally obnoxious the rest of the time. That's why I am generally nice to Mili, except when he attacks people with no provocation. (Maybe this will help you understand me a little better, if not Mili.) What I am wondering is why in hell Mili would take it upon himself to shut the newsgroup down? (Along with those hundred other premies - I'd love to see who THEY were!) It wasn't a particularly clever move, unless you think he's acting from orders on high or something, and he is the fall guy? (Sort of like Oliver North.) He had to know that we would find out about it. Doesn't it seem like he wants attention or something? From someone or SOMEONE? I can't see forbidding Mili to post on here, because that would just be using premie tactics. Let him post where he wants to, is what I say. I just don't trust him very much any more, since he seems to regard us all as enemies no matter how we behave towards him. Katie
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jan 3, 1998 at 23:11:40 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: Katie
Subject: Re: Mili should leave
Message:
Jim - I tend to feel empathy for anyone who reveals personal feelings about themselves and their life on the forum, even if they're totally obnoxious the rest of the time. That's why I am generally nice to Mili, except when he attacks people with no provocation. (Maybe this will help you understand me a little better, if not Mili.) What I am wondering is why in hell Mili would take it upon himself to shut the newsgroup down? (Along with those hundred other premies - I'd love to see who THEY were!) It wasn't a particularly clever move, unless you think he's acting from orders on high or something, and he is the fall guy? (Sort of like Oliver North.) He had to know that we would find out about it. Doesn't it seem like he wants attention or something? From someone or SOMEONE? I can't see forbidding Mili to post on here, because that would just be using premie tactics. Let him post where he wants to, is what I say. I just don't trust him very much any more, since he seems to regard us all as enemies no matter how we behave towards him. Katie He and Bobby get along....... ha ha ha ha! No, you're right. It is interesting to wonder about what the hell he thought he was doing, if anyone put him up to it or if he was just trying to get a little attention for 'Mili Living in Zagreb.' As for personal revelation, Mili can at times seem casually friendly, I guess. I mean he's got no one else to talk to, right? So, in his oafish way, he tries to get along a bit. But tell me, how much empathy can you feel for someone who doesn't let you into their party, shows up for yours, fights with all your friends most of the time he's there and, despite smiling at you at the punch bowl, is secretly waiting for the cops to show up to shut the party down (oh yeah, HE CALLED THEM!)?
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jan 3, 1998 at 23:13:10 (EST)
Poster: bftb
Email:
To: A TRUE PRIMIE
Subject: Re: Mili should leave
Message:
Mili's recent attempt to shut down the newsgroup places him squarely in the Scientologist camp, trying to stifle all criticism and discussion. For those of you who weren't around a few months ago, Mili used to cohost the premie page. Once, when two premies got into a debate about whether m is God or not (one said of course he is, the other said that's ridiculous, that that was the very kind of talk that gave people the FALSE impression that m was a cult leader), Mili shut them down. And, of course, he never let any ex post a single thing there. But he kept posting here. When asked how he justified the obvious discrepency, he said that we claimed to offer a forum for free discussion about m. He was just taking advantage of it. Okay, fair enough. Boorish for sure, but there is an argument there. Now, however, we learn that Mili has actually tried to shut the newsgroup down. Who knows if he's also tried to shut down this site. Maybe he has. I can't see why he would try to stop one and not the other. It strikes me as compeltely unprincipalled for him to continue to participate here in the circumstances. One who tries to stop the election shouldn't get to vote. At least that's my opinion. What's yours? Katie, you've been pretty nice to Mili recently. Does this knowledge change anything for you? What do you think now? OP, your opinion? You always defend Mili, despite his boorishness. Let's have your fix on this one. How about you, Bobby? Mili's one of the only people here you seem to admire. What's YOUR take on his continuing participation in light of his secret attempts to shut down all talk about m? JIM, NEXT YOU'LL SAY THAT MS MILLI KILLED KENNEDY AND LINCOLN! AND, HE WAS RESPONSIBLE FOR THE SAVINGS AND LOAN COLLAPSE. I THINK IT'S YOU THAT SHOULD LEAVE FOR TRYING TO STOP SOMEONE WHO DIFFERS FROM YOUR OPINION. SO FAR, ALL HE'S DONE IS DEFEND HIS GURU AND HIS LORD Hey there Mr.capital letters guy;I think you and mili are and always have been free to defend your guru and lord here. Why do you think that jim should leave for merely posing the question of whether mili should leave or not,yet you don't seem to think that mili should leave for trying to shut down an entire newsgroup. You know if mili and his ilk had their way there'd be nowhere left on the net for you to praise your lord and set the fine example that you do. Even Maharaji himself is free to post here,but I suspect as you may too that he would find it most enjoyable to just sit back and take great delight and joy and pride in reading posts by devotees such as yourself.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jan 3, 1998 at 23:54:58 (EST)
Poster: Sir David
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: Katie
Subject: Re: Mili should leave
Message:
Katie wrote: "(Along with those hundred other premies - I'd love to see who THEY were!)" It's all on alt.config Katie, the postings to and from and the list of premies. I personally am neutral here because I think Mili shouldn't worry about what people say about Maharaji. He should not take it so personally and anyway, Maharaji can look after himself.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jan 4, 1998 at 00:11:26 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: Sir David
Subject: here's mili's post w/ addresses (Re: Mili should leave)
Message:
Katie wrote: '(Along with those hundred other premies - I'd love to see who THEY were!)' It's all on alt.config Katie, the postings to and from and the list of premies. I personally am neutral here because I think Mili shouldn't worry about what people say about Maharaji. He should not take it so personally and anyway, Maharaji can look after himself. here's Mili's post w/ all the premie addresses. Noice how he keeps implying that he speaks for a group and then lists all these premies. He's obviously implying that these people at a minimum support his letter. Well, how does he know? Did he ever ask them? My guess is that he didn't and that, typical slimeball that he is, he just tagged on their addresses to mislead.: Dear Sirs, We are writing to you with an urgent request to consider the alarming situation that we, as followers of Guru Maharaj Ji have found ourselves when recently the Usenet Newsgroup alt.cult.maharaji, stigmatizing us as a 'cult' was instituted on the Internet, and thus inciting xenophobia, discrimination and persecution. We do not proselytize on the Internet (have no website), we keep our practices (of raja yoga meditation) private and are outraged by the slanderous, bigoted and biased slant of this newsgroup. Thank you for your attention to our plight, - Milivoj Krkovic (mili@cheerful.com), living in Zagreb, Croatia Other disciples of the Guru Maharaj Ji: liperta@obelix.htl-tex.ac.at unicorn@realitycom.com Palmheat@AOL.com bsybdy@earthling.net barrycollins@compuserve.com leenovick@p3.net TrigDuel@aol.com hdocaro@inter.net.co bitemail@msn.com durand@bellsouth.net zorayo@distrinet.com.uy malmborg.sundstrom@swipnet.se Moonreader@Cheshire.net, moonreader@monad.net mjmgrp@phoenix.net rienlife@euronet.nl Msjeno@mail2.quiknet.com sgazette@efn.org patrickw@mistral.co.uk avc@tinet.fut.es handwerk@barepower.net achurch@autobahn.mb.ca Marlin.Mktg @ aol.com yousef@netwrx.net maxxum@sinfo.net EMJR86@Sheffield.ac.uk jsca@worldnet.att.net M.Creedy@bton.ac.uk Maggie@internel.com ntb@foothill.net wthomas@swbell.net sgoldman@netline.cl samneric@hellcent.com ggraik@mail.otenet.gr Howard@rronline.com PatSpahr9@aol.coml jonv@feel.com audioh@msn.com smed4428.uri.edu ateacher@sprintmail.com sfjim@hotmail.com barry@amitar.com.au mengel@uhunix.uhcc.hawaii.edu dang@theonramp.net George@norex.com.au unclejoeho@aol.com smed4428 vick911@vicksburg.com cadbury@compuserve.com Dragonslave@msn.com joy@tiac.net pbarnes@willamette.edu jerlewis@aol.com krewlio@hotmail.com Unlonely7@aol.com cyberrgal@saltspring.com hnja@msn.com ktaten@po.jaring.my CPA@AOL.COM camms@ihug.co.nz wallford@mindless.com marczz@webtv.net micheled@bga.com Jeniblu@aol.com mkastris@aol.com jandm@lis.net.au MWDA@MSN.Com jelh@isn.com pragonampi@aol.com vohlson@oi.aust.com Baldomero.Lago@m.k12.ut.us cphelan@capecod.net groddau@idirect.com mmarquez@sagi.ucv.edu.ve JJ123@WEBTV.NET hsjeck@mindspring.com mayolives@aol.com ninks@hotmail.com hd100231@mailbox.hogia.net krakbc@indo.net.id rubeneque40@hotmail.com marcoslogco@cantv.net cyberman@sprint.com.au micarma@cancun.rce.com.mx gicam@lis.net.au ricyrub@redestb.es robbiesm@nedcor.co.za odonnells@insurance.ca.gov hopmar@hotmail.com belinda_cole@one.net.com.au deva@promalaysia.com.my howard@rronline.com bustercam@usa.net bookman99@aol.com petkat@mail.trib.net staverm@lnd.com BJT1250@Aol.com snates@netmex.com Qadesh@dircon.co.uk crows@theonramp.net cmg@netcomuk.co.uk lesley@scout.dyn.ml.org geoffk@crystal.cirrus.com Marlinmktg @ aol.com thirdeye@primenet.com pinaglieri@hotmail.com cadbury@compuserve.com monkey@vossnet.co.uk wm-home@enternet.com.au harlan@platinum.nospam.fc.hp.com mayolives@aol.com terrie.waddell@santafe.cc.fl.us lotfe@hotmail.com acer@AOL.Com editor/n64@aol.com blk@lava.net chabela@hotmail.com caseys@nccn.net -------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------       http://www.dejanews.com/     Search, Read, Post to Usenet
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jan 4, 1998 at 00:13:52 (EST)
Poster: Brian
Email:
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Mili should leave
Message:
But tell me, how much empathy can you feel for someone who doesn't let you into their party, shows up for yours, fights with all your friends most of the time he's there and, despite smiling at you at the punch bowl, is secretly waiting for the cops to show up to shut the party down (oh yeah, HE CALLED THEM!)? Now, really Jim. If you told someone about Mili, don't you think that they'd have a hard time believing that you weren't making him up? Could you blame them? How many non-Toons could consistently engage in so many episodes of shooting themselves repeatedly in the foot while bragging about their gunslinging talents? All the while recommending the sharpshooter who taught them their skills? Better that premies watch his antics played out here and wince. I bet MJ mutters him name repeatedly. If Croatia weren't so far off MJ's concert tour, he'd definitely want to look Mili up to make sure that it wasn't YOU calling yourself "Mili" in order to make MJ look like the buffoonish "Meditation Teacher" that he is. Aspirants, take note. Mili has had Knowledge for a LONG time. It's working wonders. Sign up now. Amaze your friends.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jan 4, 1998 at 00:14:17 (EST)
Poster: another bystander
Email:
To: Sir David
Subject: Re: Mili should leave
Message:
OP's email address is on the list So is Katie's
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jan 4, 1998 at 00:16:34 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: Jim
Subject: here's what he said when they laughed at him (Re: Mili should leave)
Message:
Mili doesn't really get this free speech thing. Here's how he handled being told to forget it: 'I am astonished by your tactless, brusque and insensitive response. I suppose it is too much to expect of a company that tolerates dissemination of child pornography on the Internet to have a sympathetic ear for the plight of minority spiritual communities. You are in fact actively engaged in instilling prejudice and inflaming hatred leading to violation of basic human rights. This is not the end of this matter, I assure you.' Well, Mili, what's your next step? Come on, your assurance means everything. What's next?
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jan 4, 1998 at 00:23:37 (EST)
Poster: Sir David
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: Katie
Subject: You're on the list Katie (Re: Mili should leave)
Message:
This is obviously a contrived list since you're on the list Katie.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jan 4, 1998 at 02:09:33 (EST)
Poster: Tony M
Email:
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Mili should leave
Message:
I just read a bunch of Mili's postings, and even I think he's a total jerk offering nothing to these discussions. Screw him. He should find another place to write his shit.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jan 4, 1998 at 02:14:17 (EST)
Poster: A FAKE PREMIE
Email:
To: A TRUE PRIMIE
Subject: Re: Mili should leave
Message:
Mr. Dana, you never practiced knowledge like a "true premie", not like anyone on this forum. So get the hell off your high horse and post elsewhere. Thank you and have a nice day.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jan 4, 1998 at 02:48:42 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email:
To: Sir David
Subject: Re: You're on the list Katie (Re: Mili should leave)
Message:
Yeah, I know. So is Anon, by the way. See my exchange with Brian above. It's just a list of people who posted to premie.org at one time or another. It makes me wonder if it really WAS Mili who posted the list (my address is pretty easy to recognize), or it makes me wonder at Mili's lack of intelligence.) I don't like being labelled as a closet premie, that's for sure!
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jan 4, 1998 at 04:10:51 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Jim
Subject: Re: here's what he said when they laughed at him (Re: Mili should leave)
Message:
Mili doesn't really get this free speech thing. Here's how he handled being told to forget it: 'I am astonished by your tactless, brusque and insensitive response. I suppose it is too much to expect of a company that tolerates dissemination of child pornography on the Internet to have a sympathetic ear for the plight of minority spiritual communities. You are in fact actively engaged in instilling prejudice and inflaming hatred leading to violation of basic human rights. This is not the end of this matter, I assure you.' Well, Mili, what's your next step? Come on, your assurance means everything. What's next? Well, that would be telling, now, wouldn't it? But there are several organizations dealing with protection and support of human rights on the Internet, and I have already taken steps to contact them. Inciting hatred because of religious beliefs is a Federal offense in the USA, subject to extradition for trial - as you might know as a lawyer, I am sure.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jan 4, 1998 at 16:41:28 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: Mili
Subject: Re: here's what he said when they laughed at him (Re: Mili should leave)
Message:
Mili, Where you getting your info from, the remaining ground crew for Heaven's Gate? Scientology's press office? Last time I looked, it was considered good, clean, legal fun to make fun of fraudulent cult leaders. So, you faked your 'petition' to Usenet, did you? Brian's absolutely right, it's hard to imagine your server taking more than a second to decide to cancel your account if they knew. Same as with your last threats or your lies (about my threatening to 'gas' m and his stooges). Last time, Katie and David Stirling talked me out of reporting you. This time I wonder how everyone thinks. Mili, you are a dullard. You've never said a single thing in the year and a half I've known you -- or is it two already -- that was worth reading. Nothing. If you're really trying to shut down this site, do you think you're doing your fat, greasy cult leader a favour? Think about it. If you actually get some agency to look into this issue you're gonig to generate some heat. Do you think m wants that? Of course not. Do you think we ex's do? Naturally. The press needs a current angle to write anything further about m. My guess is that that's why Kurt Anderson's piece never ran. Who cares about this antique cult? No one. If you actually stirred up some controversy, Mili, you just might be giving us the leverage we want to get m back into the limelight. And let me tell you something, Mili, if you haven't figure it out for yourself yet: if the press were to take a look at m today, they'd absolutely roast him. Public figures who espouse virtue can't afford the slightest indiscretion in their past. Two-timed your girlfriend in high school? Better have an OP on hand to explain it away for you. Imagine when the current crop of reprots comb their papers' archives. Mili, if you really do succeed in getting us some press attention, you will have done us an invaluable service. m, on the other hand, might not be so happy.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jan 4, 1998 at 17:40:00 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: Tony M
Subject: Re: Mili should leave
Message:
I just read a bunch of Mili's postings, and even I think he's a total jerk offering nothing to these discussions. Screw him. He should find another place to write his shit. 'Even I' is a good starting point. Remember to mention your use of that phrase when you apply for readmission to the College of Whiners and Piners.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jan 5, 1998 at 00:49:11 (EST)
Poster: Brian
Email:
To: Jim
Subject: Re: here's what he said when they laughed at him (Re: Mili should leave)
Message:
Mili, you are a dullard. You've never said a single thing in the year and a half I've known you -- or is it two already -- that was worth reading. What's most amazing to me is to look at what's come from your efforts to make MJ more visible. Beginning with conversations in alt.support.ex-cult, you've provided a lot of people with an outlet to express their views and let out their anger and frustration with MJ's low-profile cult. Most of the people posting here don't know it, but through Jim's persistence (being an asshole, Bobby would say), he and Scott moved the conversation off of Usenet and onto a website and forum. As the number of people taking part grew, and the Purgatory/Paradise people began having problems with their software that was affecting page loadtimes, the conversation moved back onto Usenet via our own newsgroup "alt.cult.maharaji". The ex-premie.org domain name was registered and the serves of a commercial webserver were acquired. David built what had been a few pages into a site too large for him to keep up with. As the Usenet timelag became a problem, the conversation was extended back to this forum (Forum II) on the Paradise server, whose programmers had finally solved their loadtime problems. Through all this, Mili was an active critical participant to the ongoing discussion. Boasts, threats, even having his ISP drop him due to his behavior. Mili's Satsang Page disappeared. Harlan's site (premie.com/premie.org) came and went, dying finally under the careful handling of Mili. In short, Mili is losing ground. MJ is losing ground, and about to lose more. And we're reaching more people who would possibly otherwise fall into the loving hands of The Ex-Lord Of The Universe. Thanks for being an asshole, Jim. I'm proud to be your wannabee.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jan 5, 1998 at 12:28:45 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Brian
Subject: Re: here's what he said when they laughed at him (Re: Mili should leave)
Message:
Mili, you are a dullard. You've never said a single thing in the year and a half I've known you -- or is it two already -- that was worth reading. What's most amazing to me is to look at what's come from your efforts to make MJ more visible. Beginning with conversations in alt.support.ex-cult, you've provided a lot of people with an outlet to express their views and let out their anger and frustration with MJ's low-profile cult. Most of the people posting here don't know it, but through Jim's persistence (being an asshole, Bobby would say), he and Scott moved the conversation off of Usenet and onto a website and forum. As the number of people taking part grew, and the Purgatory/Paradise people began having problems with their software that was affecting page loadtimes, the conversation moved back onto Usenet via our own newsgroup 'alt.cult.maharaji'. The ex-premie.org domain name was registered and the serves of a commercial webserver were acquired. David built what had been a few pages into a site too large for him to keep up with. As the Usenet timelag became a problem, the conversation was extended back to this forum (Forum II) on the Paradise server, whose programmers had finally solved their loadtime problems. Through all this, Mili was an active critical participant to the ongoing discussion. Boasts, threats, even having his ISP drop him due to his behavior. Mili's Satsang Page disappeared. Harlan's site (premie.com/premie.org) came and went, dying finally under the careful handling of Mili. In short, Mili is losing ground. MJ is losing ground, and about to lose more. And we're reaching more people who would possibly otherwise fall into the loving hands of The Ex-Lord Of The Universe. Thanks for being an asshole, Jim. I'm proud to be your wannabee. Look out thru your window, Brian. The real world is out there, and not on your computer screen.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jan 3, 1998 at 20:04:32 (EST)
Poster: White Knigh
Email:
To: Everyone
Subject: It's Like Time Stood Still !!!
Message:
I received Knowledge in 1974 and practiced till 1984. In those 10 years I can honestly say I witnessed and personally experienced some pretty incredible things in my own life. In that time span I was given the opportunity to be in very close physical proximity to Maharaji on many occasions. (e.g. personal security, etc.) I'll spare you all the details of why I discontinued my practice of Knowledge on the public circuit, but I'll say one thing. I never had any negative experiences concerning Maharaji himself. Which brings me to my main point. Today, I did a search and entered Maharaji's name in the search engine and found this site. It was the first time in 14 years I was interested in what he was doing. I couldn't believe what I was reading!! It was the same old shit that led me to stop practicing in the first place. The bickering between premies, the I'm holier than you attitude, the we will save the world syndrome!! Shall I go on??? It seems to me that time has stood still for the past 14 years. Only the names and faces have changed. But think about this! Isn't that exactly what this life is all about? Everything remains the same but the people and names. It's always the same old shit, but it's up to us to find the best way to get through this life whether it's with a Guru, Swami,Mommy, or whatever thrills you!! As for M"s retirement, I'll say this. Just the mention of it and look at all the controversy it has created. That's what every master does whenever he is on earth. That's their Game!!! To cause controversy so that "those with eyes will see." Don't you realize that? It's a way of testing devotees from the beginning of time. Are you going to be fooled again? How many lifetimes have you fallen for that trick, huh? I'll stop rambling now. I'm really glad I found this site and will check back often. Who knows, maybe I'll even make some new friends here. Thanks for listening!!
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jan 3, 1998 at 20:16:23 (EST)
Poster: immortal
Email: **
To: White Knigh†
Subject: game (Re: It's Like Time Stood Still !!!)
Message:
thats what every master does when he is on earth? It's a way of testing devotees from the begining of time? it's thier immortal game? how many lifetimes have you fallen for that trick? Are you going to be fooled again? Well, that is just your old thoughts being triggered probabaly, but if you really felt that way the next question should be why are you not plugging back in to the immortal game?
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jan 3, 1998 at 20:28:31 (EST)
Poster: White Knigh
Email:
To: immortal
Subject: Re: game (Re: It's Like Time Stood Still !!!)
Message:
thats what every master does when he is on earth? It's a way of testing devotees from the begining of time? it's thier immortal game? how many lifetimes have you fallen for that trick? Are you going to be fooled again? Well, that is just your old thoughts being triggered probabaly, but if you really felt that way the next question should be why are you not plugging back in to the immortal game? Like I said, this is the first time in 14 years I've even dabbled with the cord let alone plug it in!! But who knows!!
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jan 3, 1998 at 20:40:55 (EST)
Poster: Gregg
Email:
To: White Knigh†
Subject: Re: It's Like Time Stood Still !!!
Message:
Oh, man. The word "game." It excuses everything. Enuff said. I hope. If not, this: One should take responsibility for their own action, Guru or not. In fact, especially Guru. One who should embody "right action" (yeah, a Buddhist belief, but Hindus believe in morality, too!)
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jan 3, 1998 at 21:06:45 (EST)
Poster: White Knigh
Email:
To: Gregg
Subject: Re: It's Like Time Stood Still !!!
Message:
I seem to be at a disadvantage in my ability to respond to you because of my lack of knowledge of whats been going on for the past 14 years. As far as taking responsibility for my own life though it's the main reason for my departure from the group. The devil made me do it!! (or the Guru!) isn't what I'm about. I'd appreciate it though, if your really that knowledgeable about what's been going on to give me a short objective history lesson if you have the time.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jan 3, 1998 at 21:18:43 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: White Knigh†
Subject: Re: It's Like Time Stood Still !!!
Message:
Mr. Knight, thanks for popping by. Yet another person who doesn't think straight. Great. Are you suggesting that m's ability to cause controversy proves his divinity? How absurd! If that's all it took, every cult leader who ever existed, every televangelist, every fallen idol, every scandal-riddled celebrity would be divine too. Just testing their fans. Go rent 'Life of Brian.' What you're saying is ridiculous.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jan 3, 1998 at 21:33:22 (EST)
Poster: White Knigh
Email:
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Jim (Re: It's Like Time Stood Still !!!)
Message:
I'm not suggesting that M is divine at all. What I am saying is that if you investigate every major religion that ever existed there was always some controversy surrounding it's leader. So what's so different about M and his followers? Some believe, some don't!! Out of curiosity, could you please tell me your reason for frequenting this forum? Are you searching, surfing, or just trying to de-bunk?
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jan 3, 1998 at 21:48:55 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: White Knigh†
Subject: Re: Jim (Re: It's Like Time Stood Still !!!)
Message:
I'm not suggesting that M is divine at all. What I am saying is that if you investigate every major religion that ever existed there was always some controversy surrounding it's leader. So what's so different about M and his followers? Some believe, some don't!! Out of curiosity, could you please tell me your reason for frequenting this forum? Are you searching, surfing, or just trying to de-bunk? You said much more than that. You said: 'That's what every master does whenever he is on earth. That's their Game!!! To cause controversy so that 'those with eyes will see.' Don't you realize that? It's a way of testing devotees from the beginning of time. Are you going to be fooled again? How many lifetimes have you fallen for that trick, huh?' To you, m is a 'master' and any controversy around him is just his way of testing his devotees. That, my friend, is stupid. STUPID!! Typical conspiracy thinking, really. Jump to assume that anyone who might benefit from an event necessarily caused that event. In this case your thought must be 'controversy is a good way for a master to test his devotees. Therefore, where he is surrounded by controversy, the master must have stirred it up himself to do just that, test his devotees.' That's garbage thinking. Complete bullshit. You might as well argue that the Royal Family had Di killed so she wouldn't marry a muslim. Or that I hypnotized you into posting your intial message so I'd have someone to laugh at. As for why I post here --- habit, largely. Beyond that, a desire to debunk m.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jan 3, 1998 at 22:03:39 (EST)
Poster: White Knigh
Email:
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Jim (Re: It's Like Time Stood Still !!!)
Message:
You seem very adamant in your quest. Perhaps you are the real master and M's stolen your thunder?? Or is it that you once lost a girlfriend to him? Am I getting warm yet?
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jan 3, 1998 at 22:06:47 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: White Knigh†
Subject: Re: Jim (Re: It's Like Time Stood Still !!!)
Message:
You seem very adamant in your quest. Perhaps you are the real master and M's stolen your thunder?? Or is it that you once lost a girlfriend to him? Am I getting warm yet? No. But the set of POSSIBLE motivations is only as limited as your imagination. Please, keep going.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jan 3, 1998 at 22:17:28 (EST)
Poster: John K.
Email: Kreilkamp@mindspring.com
To: White Knigh†
Subject: Re: It's Like Time Stood Still !!!
Message:
I have read this post several times, and I cannot make any sense out of it. What in the world are you trying to say? How could you leave M if for 10 years if he gave you such incrediible experiences? It's clear you blame all the people around M for all the stupid stuff that happened, right? Well, guess what, m's power attracted all those idiotic premies, right? so what does that say about his power? But tell us your name, maybe we met, maybe we can talk in a more reasonable fashion.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jan 3, 1998 at 22:24:46 (EST)
Poster: White Knigh
Email:
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Jim (Re: It's Like Time Stood Still !!!)
Message:
From your responses so far I'm sure you'd be a very worthy opponent if I chose to verbally joust with you, but that wasn't the reason I came here. I was hoping to find someone who could give me some real information!! Possibly you are the one, but if we continue to play this little mind game it will do neither of us any good. If I offended you in any way, I'm sorry, but one thing I'll never do is call you stupid for your beliefs.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jan 3, 1998 at 22:38:11 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: White Knigh†
Subject: Re: Jim (Re: It's Like Time Stood Still !!!)
Message:
From your responses so far I'm sure you'd be a very worthy opponent if I chose to verbally joust with you, but that wasn't the reason I came here. I was hoping to find someone who could give me some real information!! Possibly you are the one, but if we continue to play this little mind game it will do neither of us any good. If I offended you in any way, I'm sorry, but one thing I'll never do is call you stupid for your beliefs. Please, if you ever think my beliefs are stupid, tell me. Why not? I think a lot of stuff that's stupid. Often, of course, I never notice it myself. It usually takes someone else pointing out my error for me to get it. Do you see now how fallacious it is to consider controversy about m as proof of his having caused it? The point is that, while that is indeed a POSSIBLE explanation, it is so entirely less likely than many others. If you don't rank thigs in terms of normal probabilities, you risk catering to all sorts of pet fancies and paranoias. Conspiracy thinking. You came here telling everyone that we should smarten up and see m's lila in everything. That's what you said and that's what I responded to. If you want to drop that, fine. I was just bouncing the ball back over the net.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jan 3, 1998 at 22:59:47 (EST)
Poster: White Knigh
Email:
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Jim (Re: It's Like Time Stood Still !!!)
Message:
My God!! I'll have to bookmark this page!! You admitted it may be a possible explanation! *lol* I totally agree with you that it is possible but not probable. But if there is such a thing as Lila. My question is would we ever be capable of being aware of it. What do you think? BTW, Do you mean to tell me Di wasn't assasinated??? *lol*
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jan 3, 1998 at 23:27:35 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: White Knigh†
Subject: Re: Jim (Re: It's Like Time Stood Still !!!)
Message:
My God!! I'll have to bookmark this page!! You admitted it may be a possible explanation! *lol* I totally agree with you that it is possible but not probable. But if there is such a thing as Lila. My question is would we ever be capable of being aware of it. What do you think? BTW, Do you mean to tell me Di wasn't assasinated??? *lol* The lila thing is so slight a possibility it's not worth assuming in order to speculate further, as you're doing, as to whether or not we'd be able to know. Why bother? As for Di, yes she was assassinated, but not for any of those stupid paranoid reasons floating around the arab press. It was to detract attention from Mother Theresa's murder, is how I heard it.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jan 4, 1998 at 03:57:33 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: White Knigh†
Subject: Re: Jim (Re: It's Like Time Stood Still !!!)
Message:
From your responses so far I'm sure you'd be a very worthy opponent if I chose to verbally joust with you, but that wasn't the reason I came here. I was hoping to find someone who could give me some real information!! Possibly you are the one, but if we continue to play this little mind game it will do neither of us any good. If I offended you in any way, I'm sorry, but one thing I'll never do is call you stupid for your beliefs. I can see that it took you just a few posts on the Internet to wise up to Jim.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jan 3, 1998 at 20:03:39 (EST)
Poster: White Knigh
Email:
To: Everyone
Subject: I Can'It's Like Time Stood Still !!
Message:
I received Knowledge in 1974 and practiced till 1984. In those 10 years I can honestly say I witnessed and personally experienced some pretty incredible things in my own life. In that time span I was given the opportunity to be in very close physical proximity to Maharaji on many occasions. (e.g. personal security, etc.) I'll spare you all the details of why I discontinued my practice of Knowledge on the public circuit, but I'll say one thing. I never had any negative experiences concerning Maharaji himself. Which brings me to my main point. Today, I did a search and entered Maharaji's name in the search engine and found this site. It was the first time in 14 years I was interested in what he was doing. I couldn't believe what I was reading!! It was the same old shit that led me to stop practicing in the first place. The bickering between premies, the I'm holier than you attitude, the we will save the world syndrome!! Shall I go on??? It seems to me that time has stood still for the past 14 years. Only the names and faces have changed. But think about this! Isn't that exactly what this life is all about? Everything remains the same but the people and names. It's always the same old shit, but it's up to us to find the best way to get through this life whether it's with a Guru, Swami,Mommy, or whatever thrills you!! As for M"s retirement, I'll say this. Just the mention of it and look at all the controversy it has created. That's what every master does whenever he is on earth. That's their Game!!! To cause controversy so that "those with eyes will see." Don't you realize that? It's a way of testing devotees from the beginning of time. Are you going to be fooled again? How many lifetimes have you fallen for that trick, huh? I'll stop rambling now. I'm really glad I found this site and will check back often. Who knows, maybe I'll even make some new friends here. Thanks for listening!!
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jan 3, 1998 at 18:13:41 (EST)
Poster: Tony Madar
Email: No Spam please:)
To: Everyone
Subject: Just passin through..
Message:
Jesus....I dont know who you all are..but if I had a choice between you lot of whingers and this guru guy I'd be chanting with him before you could say OM. :)
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jan 3, 1998 at 19:40:35 (EST)
Poster: Nigel
Email:
To: Tony Madar
Subject: Re: Just passin through..
Message:
Jesus....I dont know who you all are..but if I had a choice between you lot of whingers and this guru guy I'd be chanting with him before you could say OM. :) You've obviously never surrendered your life to anybody. You strike me as somebody who probably never will. Sensible chap. Good luck to you. Nigel
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jan 3, 1998 at 20:19:57 (EST)
Poster: another
Email: bb
To: Tony Madar
Subject: photon (Re: Just passin through..)
Message:
sure, sure. So nice of you to mispercieve our private show. It's a big internet, have fun!
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jan 3, 1998 at 21:13:50 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: Tony Madar
Subject: Re: Just passin through..
Message:
Jesus....I dont know who you all are..but if I had a choice between you lot of whingers and this guru guy I'd be chanting with him before you could say OM. :) Tony, You mean 'whiners', right? Let me ask you: There are cults which people, often young, always naive, get sucked in to. Do you agree with that statement? A common feature of most cults is a mechanism to keep people from leaving. Do you agree with that statement? It takes some people years to get past the traps keeping them in a cult. Indeed, many never get out. Do you agree with that? When people finally do leave a cult, they're better able to understand the mechanisms that were used to trap them and exploit their trust before they escaped. Do you agree with that? When people understand how they've been manipulated for years, sometimes decades, they tend to get angry. Do you agree? Their anger is justified. Do you agree with that statement? Someone who doesn't know the first thing about what, if any, trap someone else was in has no business telling them how to feel or what to say about it all. Do you agree with that? You're an asshole Do you agree with that?
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jan 4, 1998 at 02:04:49 (EST)
Poster: Tony Madar
Email:
To: Tony Madar
Subject: Re: Just passin through..
Message:
I am really an ass hole to the 100th degree. I am a jerk and an idiot and won't post here anymore. I have no brains anyway to say anything intelligent either. I'm an idiot
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jan 3, 1998 at 17:58:28 (EST)
Poster: Nigel
Email: (sorry don't have one)
To: Everyone
Subject: When the next master comes...
Message:
>>>'When the next master comes I want to make it NICE for him or her' (Guru Maharaj ji, 1997) <<< God said this. Or his living embodiment on earth said this. Oh please... Isn't it NICE enough being in a state of permanent God-consciousness? Or have they eased up on the entry requirements? >>>'So that they don't have to put up with the GARBAGE I did?' (Guru Maharaj ji, 1997) <<< God said this. Or his living embodiment on earth said this. Is the Lear jet not performing or something? Does the marble mansion suffer rising damp? Has having your toes kissed lost its peculiar appeal? If I started writing about the 'garbage I had to put up with' I would inevitably upset those among us who feel that courtesy and decorum are of paramount importance. I too believe in courtesy and decorum when dealing with folk who have done me no harm, but, like Jim and Dr J Katshitanand, I feel that the expression of anger is often both appropriate and therapeutic. Pardon me if I now express myself: **** *** you ******* ****** *****!!!. Come near me again in this lifetime and I promise I will personally ****** **** ****!!!! Best wishes, Nigel PS to Mili: It is now safe to turn off your computer. PS to Seymour. I will reply soon to your post. Are you an English premie, possibly from the Portsmouth / Southampton area? If so, I think we may have met about twenty years back.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jan 3, 1998 at 21:16:29 (EST)
Poster: *
Email: **
To: Nigel
Subject: * (Re: When the next master comes...)
Message:
You know you are right, he really had everthing he wanted from us and still there are thousands that would do anything he wanted. I have friends that spent the last 5 to 10 years working at his house. I have friends that spent lots of time in amaroo working until december. I just until recently spent since millenium living my life for his benefit. Garbage translates into normal living obstacles, natural rules of life and life not conforming itself to his infinite desires. Whod a thunk it would go this way? Thank god I came out gradually in an environment of discussion. Unlimited money, unlimited free time, plenty of people to manifest your desires, a rich emporer always plagued with anger and other curses. ALMOST waking up, then veering off into more of the same. There is nothing more you can have in life besides of course, a life of loving with no flip side. What a lesson, to walk with the friend, find the attitude that supports loving the moments of life and those around you. He had everything but that. Too bad that is essential. Too bad that is given by god with your own effort. Or even if you don't think there is a friend power, the attitude and feeling are design features built in and they are available. He must really be going through it right now, think think think think think.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jan 5, 1998 at 22:16:57 (EST)
Poster: Jason
Email:
To: Nigel
Subject: Re: When the next master comes...
Message:
If I started writing about the 'garbage I had to put up with' I would inevitably upset those among us who feel that courtesy and decorum are of paramount importance. I too believe in courtesy and decorum when dealing with folk who have done me no harm, but, like Jim and Dr J Katshitanand, I feel that the expression of anger is often both appropriate and therapeutic. Pardon me if I now express myself: **** *** you ******* ****** *****!!!. Come near me again in this lifetime and I promise I will personally ****** **** ****!!!! Best wishes, Nigel PS to Mili: It is now safe to turn off your computer. PS to Seymour. I will reply soon to your post. Are you an English premie, possibly from the Portsmouth / Southampton area? If so, I think we may have met about twenty years back. Nige Good you were able to get that off your chest old bean, hope it helped. Remember though, it was you who came near him, and not the other way around. I doubt he has any intention of chasing you if you don't want to be chased. Cheers.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jan 6, 1998 at 20:34:30 (EST)
Poster: Nigel
Email:
To: Jason
Subject: Re: When the next master comes...
Message:
If I started writing about the 'garbage I had to put up with' I would inevitably upset those among us who feel that courtesy and decorum are of paramount importance. I too believe in courtesy and decorum when dealing with folk who have done me no harm, but, like Jim and Dr J Katshitanand, I feel that the expression of anger is often both appropriate and therapeutic. Pardon me if I now express myself: **** *** you ******* ****** *****!!!. Come near me again in this lifetime and I promise I will personally ****** **** ****!!!! Best wishes, Nigel PS to Mili: It is now safe to turn off your computer. PS to Seymour. I will reply soon to your post. Are you an English premie, possibly from the Portsmouth / Southampton area? If so, I think we may have met about twenty years back. Nige Good you were able to get that off your chest old bean, hope it helped. Remember though, it was you who came near him, and not the other way around. I doubt he has any intention of chasing you if you don't want to be chased. Cheers. METHINKS IT IS LIKE A WEASEL.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jan 3, 1998 at 16:27:53 (EST)
Poster: Nigel
Email:
To: Everyone
Subject: Thoughts on possible resignation
Message:
Can it really be true? (m's resignation). [UK ex-premies will probably understand exactly what I mean if I say that I last felt this good about two o'clock in the morning on May 2nd seeing the look on Portillo's face] It will be enough for me if m has merely indicated that resignation is a POSSIBILITY, since this undermines all of his earliest claims and promises (eg, The Great Declaration, 1971) It will surely shut up once and for all those horrible nagging voices in the back of the minds of recent ex-premies that I know, from bitter experience, keep coming back to taunt them whenever they feel a bit low. (Streams of satsang garbage buried deep in long-term memory.) Hang on in there, folks - they really do go away. Thousands more, I imagine, will leave the movement. I don't envy those premies who have been around for twenty-five / thirty years at all. It will be a bit like the Pope waking up one morning and realising he doesn't believe in God, or something. What can you possibly do with yourself, and maintain some kind of personal self-respect? As a result I can see this forum acquiring much more of a social-support role, devoted more to helping the desolate and the devastated, than to attacking m. And a very worthwhile enterprise, too. Even so, I would still love to see m's face plastered across the pages of every tabloid paper in the western world. A messy divorce in which Durga Ji spills all the beans might be nice. And from what I understand of the American legal system, it can only be a matter of time before disenchanted devotees start suing for breech of contractual agreement: "I surrendered the reins of my life in the understanding that you, as 'Satguru', would deliver me, personally uninjured, to the heavenly kingdom, provided that I, the undersigned, did undertake to engage in the recommended practises of satsang, service and meditation. I duly fulfilled my part of the agreement in good faith. I hereby submit that you have failed me in this undertaking, and I now wish to reclaim those 'charitable' donations that I made, along with various expenses incurred through travelling, engaging in unpaid labour at your luxury residence in Reigate, and abroad to festivals in which the toe-kissing experience you refer to as 'Darshan' was, according to your own instructions, deemed to be of paramount importance to my spiritual development. You owe me fifteen thousand dollars, scumbag." Other, desperately sad cases will accept Maharaji's notion of apostolic succession and go pranam to Charnanand, or whoever. In the real world, some people truly are lost causes. PS to Bobby and Mili> Go away please. Best Wishes Nigel
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jan 3, 1998 at 21:36:13 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Nigel
Subject: Re: Thoughts on possible resignation
Message:
Can it really be true? (m's resignation). PS to Bobby and Mili> Go away please. Why should we go away? Are we upsetting your cozy little belief system?
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jan 3, 1998 at 22:29:07 (EST)
Poster: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net
To: Mili
Subject: Re: Thoughts on possible resignation
Message:
Can it really be true? (m's resignation). PS to Bobby and Mili> Go away please. Why should we go away? Are we upsetting your cozy little belief system? Gee, Mili, I thought that it was YOUR cozy little belief system that was being upset around here. Isn't that why you need to tell us that we are pushing hate? Isn't that why you feel the need to close down the newsgroup? Isn't that why you fear "Neo-platonic book learning" yet waste space typing passages from your favorite book of the month? You've posted in the past that you are "full of bliss" while we are full of anger and hate. Well, I'm not feeling a lot of love from you right now, brother. Perhaps you should crawl under a blanket and squeeze you eyeballs, stick your fingers in your ears, and hyperventilate for a little while. JSCA, buddy!
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jan 4, 1998 at 04:07:04 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Mickey the Pharisee
Subject: Re: Thoughts on possible resignation
Message:
Can it really be true? (m's resignation). PS to Bobby and Mili> Go away please. Why should we go away? Are we upsetting your cozy little belief system? Gee, Mili, I thought that it was YOUR cozy little belief system that was being upset around here. Isn't that why you need to tell us that we are pushing hate? Isn't that why you feel the need to close down the newsgroup? Isn't that why you fear 'Neo-platonic book learning' yet waste space typing passages from your favorite book of the month? You've posted in the past that you are 'full of bliss' while we are full of anger and hate. Well, I'm not feeling a lot of love from you right now, brother. Perhaps you should crawl under a blanket and squeeze you eyeballs, stick your fingers in your ears, and hyperventilate for a little while. JSCA, buddy! See, it's people like Brian and you who definitely convince me that this is a concerted attack on the most basic rights of people to their religious beliefs and practices. That's why I felt it appropriate to try to shut this whole 'anti-cult' hate cult down. Thanks for the support.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jan 3, 1998 at 10:46:42 (EST)
Poster: Mata Ji
Email:
To: Everyone
Subject: I told you so!
Message:
'He is NOT the Messiah - he's A VERY NAUGHTY BOY!!!' * (*copyright Monty Python 1979)
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jan 3, 1998 at 05:18:48 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Everyone
Subject: What M Really Said in Long Beach
Message:
This is what he said: *** "I am alive, you are alive, let's set the standard. You know, one of the responsibilities that I feel in my life, being the Master — and maybe this didn't happen so much in the past, but I want to make this transformation, is that I not only want to make it beautiful for this generation, whilst I'm alive, but when the next Master comes, I want to make it nice for him or her. So that they don't have to put up with the kind of garbage I did. That they can go on and enjoy. Because it should be enjoyable. Spreading this Knowledge should be enjoyable, and we have to set that standard. We — you and I — we have to set that standard." *** Kind of a long shot to go from this to : "he's going to retire and all the premies are idiots", don't you think, Mr.Ex? And another little quote for you: *** "And, similarly, unless that human being is filled with that contentment, they cannot pass on the contentment. A person who has love in them can make other people feel love. A person who is full of hate will only make other people hate. It's a weird syndrome. A person who cares can distribute that feeling amongst the others, but a person who doesn't care cannot distribute that feeling." *** So, Mr. Ex - go play your little mind games with someone else.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jan 3, 1998 at 05:53:27 (EST)
Poster: Mr Ex
Email:
To: Mili
Subject: Re: What M Really Said in Long Beach
Message:
Why are you such an idiot? This is not where he says he's going to retire! If you don't have the transcript or don't want to post it, someone else will! I will anyway in a few days when I'll get the video!
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jan 3, 1998 at 06:59:29 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Mr Ex
Subject: Re: What M Really Said in Long Beach
Message:
Why are you such an idiot? This is not where he says he's going to retire! If you don't have the transcript or don't want to post it, someone else will! I will anyway in a few days when I'll get the video! Mr.Ex, go play your sick little mystery-mongering mind games somewhere else.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jan 3, 1998 at 07:13:39 (EST)
Poster: Brian
Email:
To: Mili
Subject: Re: What M Really Said in Long Beach
Message:
As to whether MJ is about ready to take the money and run, I don't know. Mishler encouraged him to do that years ago, but he continued to play Perfect Master to the mindless crowd. But I do find the passages as possibly setting the stage for the next clown(ess?). when the next Master comes, I want to make it nice for him or her. And "similarly...", this quip... 'And, similarly, unless that human being is filled with that contentment, they cannot pass on the contentment. A person who has love in them can make other people feel love. A person who is full of hate will only make other people hate. It's a weird syndrome. A person who cares can distribute that feeling amongst the others, but a person who doesn't care cannot distribute that feeling.' ...has the ring of a pre-nomination speach at a Political Convention. Usually the speaker is talking about someone specific, while describing a vision of the perfect candidate. There is always a pregnant pause before the statement: "Ladies and Gentlemen, it is my honor to present the next Lord Of The Universe - Miss. Understanding Herself - ..."
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jan 3, 1998 at 07:27:20 (EST)
Poster: Brian
Email:
To: Mili
Subject: Re: What M Really Said in Long Beach
Message:
Mili, you are not only an idiot, you are a coward. You have shown repeatedly that you are afraid to face any fact in life that will cause you to have to adjust your cozy belief system - even though you will eventually be left hanging in the air by your Master. Your having caved-in to his selfish wishes concerning premie.org, as well as attempting to have the newsgroup pulled (another indulged fantasy, eh?), only underscore your cowardice. You are freely provided with your only outlets to rant about your gooooroooo with other devotees who might sneak peeks either here or on usenet. Yet you would allow your fears of the facts expressed there and here, by people who have chosen to learn more than you, to eliminate both of these if you only had the power. Too bad that MJ isn't as powerful as OP gives him credit for being, or the problem forums would long ago have disappeared into the warm fuzzy Whirled Peas that he promised to bring to all of us. Hang on tight, Mili. The world is turning, and it's rolling right at you.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jan 3, 1998 at 09:44:25 (EST)
Poster: op
Email:
To: Mili
Subject: Re: What M Really Said in Long Beach
Message:
Don't even bother trying. Deaf ears are nothing compared to stone walls.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jan 3, 1998 at 12:01:07 (EST)
Poster: *
Email: bb
To: Mili
Subject: * (Re: What M Really Said in Long Beach)
Message:
guess how he is learning that? By his own experience of hateing
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jan 3, 1998 at 14:09:56 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Brian
Subject: Re: What M Really Said in Long Beach
Message:
Mili, you are not only an idiot, you are a coward. You have shown repeatedly that you are afraid to face any fact in life that will cause you to have to adjust your cozy belief system - even though you will eventually be left hanging in the air by your Master. Your having caved-in to his selfish wishes concerning premie.org, as well as attempting to have the newsgroup pulled (another indulged fantasy, eh?), only underscore your cowardice. You are freely provided with your only outlets to rant about your gooooroooo with other devotees who might sneak peeks either here or on usenet. Yet you would allow your fears of the facts expressed there and here, by people who have chosen to learn more than you, to eliminate both of these if you only had the power. Too bad that MJ isn't as powerful as OP gives him credit for being, or the problem forums would long ago have disappeared into the warm fuzzy Whirled Peas that he promised to bring to all of us. Hang on tight, Mili. The world is turning, and it's rolling right at you. Apocalyptic, my dear Brian, simply apocalyptic. What a harbinger of doom you are! You should start your own cult. Hell, you have one already. You are the webmaster of the anti-Maharaji hate cult. Pathetic.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jan 3, 1998 at 14:11:39 (EST)
Poster: Darwin
Email: the void
To: Mili
Subject: Re: What M Really Said in Long Beach
Message:
This is what he said: *** 'I am alive, you are alive, let's set the standard. You know, one of the responsibilities that I feel in my life, being the Master — and maybe this didn't happen so much in the past, but I want to make this transformation, is that I not only want to make it beautiful for this generation, whilst I'm alive, but when the next Master comes, I want to make it nice for him or her. So that they don't have to put up with the kind of garbage I did. That they can go on and enjoy. Because it should be enjoyable. Spreading this Knowledge should be enjoyable, and we have to set that standard. We — you and I — we have to set that standard.' *** Kind of a long shot to go from this to : 'he's going to retire and all the premies are idiots', don't you think, Mr.Ex? And another little quote for you: *** 'And, similarly, unless that human being is filled with that contentment, they cannot pass on the contentment. A person who has love in them can make other people feel love. A person who is full of hate will only make other people hate. It's a weird syndrome. A person who cares can distribute that feeling amongst the others, but a person who doesn't care cannot distribute that feeling.' *** So, Mr. Ex - go play your little mind games with someone else. Now everybody sing:"I'm a master, she's a master,he's a master....Oh wouldn't you like to be a master too?Be a master,drink Dr.Nectar,oh,be a master,drink Dr.Nectar...." This is truly incredible stuff.If true,I am completely blown away!He's now actually prepping for a transition of power?I can't believe this.So he's tired of the biz but the the benefits are good and he doesn't want to lose them so he'll hire a master and put him on salary?What the hell is going on here?I can't wait to read what Mr.Ex posts.It's going to be very interesting to hear what M actually said in full.What Mili has posted here is nauseating enough. And too think that I was still on the fence.Really!Still giving the benefit of the doubt to this mutual hallucination. GOD INC. Unreal! You know all this growing up is gonna kill me,because I don't know if I can handle all my icons crumbling.You mean there really really is no santa?It's sinking in but at least I still could believe that M was a sincere delusional,and now I don't even have that luxury.It's seeming more and more to be a scam like any other.Seriously,this is a tough one to swallow. Mili:why haven't you adressed why you tried to get the usenet newsgroup pulled?I'd really like to know because I was in shock reading your letter requesting same.I really was.When that lady said to you that your approach would backfire she was right!I'm proof:that email of yours(and the fact that at least another hundred premies whose names and emails were deleted,rightly so,from the deja news posting,supported your request)totally turned me off.It so embarassed and disgusted me and actually served as another nail in my sympathy for EV coffin. You really blew it I'm afraid,and I'd really like you to explain why you did that? Thank-you
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jan 3, 1998 at 19:31:41 (EST)
Poster: CD
Email:
To: Burke
Subject: Re: What M Really Said in Long Beach
Message:
I was at the Long Beach event. M did not speak about retiring.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jan 3, 1998 at 21:26:18 (EST)
Poster: DV
Email: **
To: CD
Subject: D (Re: What M Really Said in Long Beach)
Message:
I hear you.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 23:10:57 (EST)
Poster: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net
To: Everyone
Subject: Hey ,Kids!!!
Message:
Hey, Kids!! I was just over at the newsgroup (alt.cult.maharaji), just checking to see if anything was happening, and I found a VERY INTERESTING POST regarding a certain premie who posts here and his campaign to remove the newsgroup! Check it out! Regards, Michael
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 23:22:28 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: Mickey the Pharisee
Subject: Mili's oafish nature (Re: Hey ,Kids!!!)
Message:
Hey, Kids!! I was just over at the newsgroup (alt.cult.maharaji), just checking to see if anything was happening, and I found a VERY INTERESTING POST regarding a certain premie who posts here and his campaign to remove the newsgroup! Check it out! Regards, Michael Well, of course. Here's what Mili sent to the newsgroup people: 'Dear Sirs, > >We are writing to you with an urgent request to consider the alarming >situation that we, as followers of Guru Maharaj Ji have found ourselves >when recently the Usenet Newsgroup alt.cult.maharaji, stigmatizing us as a >'cult' was instituted on the Internet, and thus inciting xenophobia, >discrimination and persecution. > >We do not proselytize on the Internet (have no website), we keep our >practices (of raja yoga meditation) private and are outraged by the >slanderous, bigoted and biased slant of this newsgroup. > >Thank you for your attention to our plight, > >- Milivoj Krkovic (mili@cheerful.com), living in Zagreb, Croatia' Of course the newsgroup woman told him to unsubscribe if he hated it so much. Mili, I realize that you and Bobby are friends (ha ha ha!) and that Katie's grown quite fond of you (oh please!) but I really think you should quit posting here once and for all. You have absolutely no business participating in a forum you argue should be vanquished. You are the same jerk who tried to get even the premies to not discuss things freely on your own premie page, aren't you? The same person who blocked out any ex's from posting there? The same guy who threatened David Stirling? Who spread lies about my threatening to exterminate all the premies? Why do you say 'we' in your note? Who else are you talking for? You're a crepp, dude.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 23:26:10 (EST)
Poster: Rick
Email: rtaraday@hotmail.com
To: Mickey the Pharisee
Subject: Re: Hey ,Kids!!!
Message:
Hey, Kids!! I was just over at the newsgroup (alt.cult.maharaji), just checking to see if anything was happening, and I found a VERY INTERESTING POST regarding a certain premie who posts here and his campaign to remove the newsgroup! Check it out! Regards, Michael The real Mili could not have written that. Mili posts on this site and would have posted a notice of his intent. Someone must have forged his name.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 23:34:55 (EST)
Poster: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net
To: Rick
Subject: Re: Hey ,Kids!!!
Message:
Hey, Kids!! I was just over at the newsgroup (alt.cult.maharaji), just checking to see if anything was happening, and I found a VERY INTERESTING POST regarding a certain premie who posts here and his campaign to remove the newsgroup! Check it out! Regards, Michael The real Mili could not have written that. Mili posts on this site and would have posted a notice of his intent. Someone must have forged his name. I agree, that IS a possibility, but it is also QUITE POSSIBLE that our own little Mili may have actually made that request. Let's wait and hear his version of the story! Uhh, I may want to change my vote on that thread waayy down the list...
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 23:41:34 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Mickey the Pharisee
Subject: Re: Hey ,Kids!!!
Message:
Hey, Kids!! I was just over at the newsgroup (alt.cult.maharaji), just checking to see if anything was happening, and I found a VERY INTERESTING POST regarding a certain premie who posts here and his campaign to remove the newsgroup! Check it out! Regards, Michael The real Mili could not have written that. Mili posts on this site and would have posted a notice of his intent. Someone must have forged his name. I agree, that IS a possibility, but it is also QUITE POSSIBLE that our own little Mili may have actually made that request. Let's wait and hear his version of the story! Uhh, I may want to change my vote on that thread waayy down the list... Yeah, me too, Mickey (maybe it's that "desperado" thing, Jim") ... You go, Sherilyn and Scott, by the way! Thanks very much to both of you, and to Michael too. Mili, does Maharaji know that you're doing this?
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jan 3, 1998 at 19:50:43 (EST)
Poster: CD
Email:
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Mili's oafish nature (Re: Hey ,Kids!!!)
Message:
Jim, You and Mili have both jousted on the newsgroup and this forum for over a year now. You have been the instigator of probably 75% of the mudslinging. You like it after all. It serves as an outlet for your legal skills. Mili is by no means the only target of your verbal abuse. There is a long list of people who you have claimed are fools and "crepps" because they do not concur with your views. Your ploy of innocence is foolish. The facts are well documented by your own numerous postings of the last year. Regards, CD
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 21:45:03 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: Everyone
Subject: Exaggeration
Message:
I confess. I, too, used to say stuff like: It's better than acid or 'shrooms taken together! It's really funny. In the 'Lord of the Universe' video there's this one guy working no the stage at Millenium who say he's done thousands of mic's of acid before but never did he get as high as on knowledge. Bullshit.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 22:10:25 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email:
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Exaggeration
Message:
I confess. I, too, used to say stuff like: It's better than acid or 'shrooms taken together! It's really funny. In the 'Lord of the Universe' video there's this one guy working no the stage at Millenium who say he's done thousands of mic's of acid before but never did he get as high as on knowledge. Bullshit. Jim - Let's just say 'It isn't as GOOD OR AS BAD as acid and 'shrooms taken together' ('Shrooms" = before my time, so I had trouble typing it). Okay?
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 22:54:59 (EST)
Poster: Rick
Email: rtaraday@hotmail.com
To: Katie
Subject: Re: Exaggeration
Message:
I confess. I, too, used to say stuff like: It's better than acid or 'shrooms taken together! It's really funny. In the 'Lord of the Universe' video there's this one guy working no the stage at Millenium who say he's done thousands of mic's of acid before but never did he get as high as on knowledge. Bullshit. Jim - Let's just say 'It isn't as GOOD OR AS BAD as acid and 'shrooms taken together' ('Shrooms' = before my time, so I had trouble typing it). Okay? Katie, Was that an anti-drug message, an anti-maharaji message or both? Rick
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jan 3, 1998 at 06:57:26 (EST)
Poster: Brian
Email:
To: Katie
Subject: Re: Exaggeration
Message:
Let's just say 'It isn't as GOOD OR AS BAD as acid and 'shrooms taken together' ('Shrooms' = before my time, so I had trouble typing it). Okay? You never had SHROOMS??? No wonder you never realized Knowledge. You missed it, Katie... It was there, and you missed it.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jan 3, 1998 at 14:53:30 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email:
To: Brian
Subject: Re: Exaggeration
Message:
Sorry Brian - what I meant is that we never CALLED them "shrooms". Maybe you guys are all a lot younger than me or something, or I come from a real unhip part of the country (in fact I know I do - so there.) Plus I never realized knowledge either!
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jan 3, 1998 at 14:56:32 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email:
To: Rick
Subject: Re: Exaggeration
Message:
Katie, Was that an anti-drug message, an anti-maharaji message or both? Rick Both, Rick. Katie
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jan 3, 1998 at 16:39:44 (EST)
Poster: Nigel
Email:
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Exaggeration
Message:
I understand you're going away or something, Jim. Not off the planet surely? Can't you keep posting? There's a lot of tiresome people posting here, still trying to do 'Knowledge' under some different guise, and even excuse Mr Rawat for everything. I'm not not sure they're even aware of it in some cases. The poison runs deep. Good luck and best wishes, Nigel
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 19:30:19 (EST)
Poster: Gregg
Email: gpainter@dnvr.uswest.net
To: Everyone
Subject: Self/Guru
Message:
We all had "experiences" when premies. How do you determine the "origin" of that experience? (The party line was that it came from M; probably not true, but some gurus do transmit or facilitate... something...my opinion, anyway) But if you really believe in a fake guru, you can still pass through genuine spiritual transformation - again, my opinion.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 19:55:03 (EST)
Poster: grabbing at
Email: bb
To: Gregg
Subject: air (Re: Self/Guru)
Message:
like jesus/yeshua said, "as you believe, so it will be done unto you." So, until the guru blows it somehow, the person can have a potentially nice life of giveing themselves to someone, but then again, nothing stops us from giving ourselves to just about everything. Truely we are designed to fixate on to something and in a way worship it. musical bands, sports teams, hobbie, politics, endless list, what do you think we are actually designed to do with that tendency?
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 21:22:11 (EST)
Poster: Gregg
Email:
To: grabbing at
Subject: Re: air (Re: Self/Guru)
Message:
What are we designed to do? what do you think? Did we come with an instruction manual? I believe we are designed to learn. From others? From Gaia? From our own frontal lobes? From a guru? And, if from a guru, are we allowed to use our intellect to ascertain if s/he is a true guru? Yes. And on that count, (in many ways) GMJ fails.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 21:27:15 (EST)
Poster: Sir David
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: everyone
Subject: Good can come of this (Re: Self/Guru)
Message:
We evolved over millions of years as hunter gatherers in small social groups. Such groups would have a leader and wise elders. These days we don't live in small social groups but our evolution means that we invariably look up to someone as being stronger or wiser than us, for our own protection. For me personally, it was often impossible to look up to Maharaji in this way, mainly because I felt distant from him. You know I now realise that I never saw M as my Guru. He was God and that was that. I had to try and worship him whether I wanted to or not. I was more likely to look up to fellow premies who I "thought" were more realised than me. If Maharaji quits the job I still have what I got into it for in the first place. I came to Maharaji to get the meditation techniques. I am grateful that he brought these over to the West. With the wisdom of age I can now say that the years I spent trying to surrender were a mistake. Maharaji made a mistake but as John Cavad said, he was born into it. Now I know that Maharaji isn't God and he has no authority on what I may think, feel or do, I can forgive him for the suffering I've been through trying to make myself into something inhuman. The knowledge techniques are very much a personal thing and will achieve different results for different people. I am indebted to the nectar technique which has really helped me in my life and is often the source of most pleasant and enriching experiences. If Maharaji is suffering from poor health due to alchaholism, the nectar technique could save him. It saved me from a bad drug habit during the eighties and it continues to help me now. May gentleness and compassion have the final say.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 21:37:43 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: Gregg
Subject: Re: air (Re: Self/Guru)
Message:
Gregg, I think you'll find the most profound explanation of what we're designed to do in the study of evolution. Do a search for Richard Dawkins, Daniel Denette, Joel Pinker or Robert Wright. Find one of Dawkins' very readable interviews that's posted somewhere. There's a lot of material that does a good job of explaining to laymen like me (and presumably you) how much we're coming to know about evolutionary psychology. Our character's largely a function of natural selection. Gaia and gurus don't even get on the scoreboard.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 22:38:21 (EST)
Poster: Darwin from the void
Email:
To: Gregg
Subject: Re: air (Re: Self/Guru)
Message:
There really is no conscious designer.In the spirit of your question however,I can tell you that we(and all life)were 'designed' to survive.Period.In spite of our infinately creative wishful thinking,that's all that is really taking place.The rest is filler.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 23:03:02 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: Darwin from the void
Subject: Re: air (Re: Self/Guru)
Message:
There really is no conscious designer.In the spirit of your question however,I can tell you that we(and all life)were 'designed' to survive.Period.In spite of our infinately creative wishful thinking,that's all that is really taking place.The rest is filler. Yes, of course 'design' is a verboten concept in evolutionary circles. 'Designoid' is the word Dawkins uses for that which looks designed but instead derives from natural selection (i.e. life).
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jan 3, 1998 at 06:52:56 (EST)
Poster: Brian
Email:
To: Sir David
Subject: Re: Good can come of this (Re: Self/Guru)
Message:
These days we don't live in small social groups but our evolution means that we invariably look up to someone as being stronger or wiser than us, for our own protection. Right, and we've developed rituals and superstitions to guide our decision-making process. Witness the last US election where we chose Clinton's incumbancy over Drole's vague mumblings - or OP's choosing MJ's profound fortune cookie sayings over the "wisdom" of Eastern Teachings (which, dispite having been practiced for thousands of years, haven't even moved Eastern herds in the direction of Shangri La). For me personally, it was often impossible to look up to Maharaji in this way, mainly because I felt distant from him. You know I now realise that I never saw M as my Guru. He was God and that was that. I had to try and worship him whether I wanted to or not. I was more likely to look up to fellow premies who I 'thought' were more realised than me. That was the case for most of us. Those few "blessed" premies who got to be the targets of his personal anger, or his personal hand-maidens, all returned to us with amazing stories of his insight into their being. Even now he "manifests" in many areas of their lives. How wonderfully marvelous of him to do that!!! For the majority of his "students", MJ is nothing more than an icon.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jan 7, 1998 at 09:02:37 (EST)
Poster: And On Anand Ji
Email: aoa
To: grabbing at
Subject: Re: air (Re: Self/Guru)
Message:
like jesus/yeshua said, 'as you believe, so it will be done unto you.' So, until the guru blows it somehow, the person can have a potentially nice life of giveing themselves to someone, but then again, nothing stops us from giving ourselves to just about everything. Truely we are designed to fixate on to something and in a way worship it. musical bands, sports teams, hobbie, politics, endless list, what do you think we are actually designed to do with that tendency? I think we're designed to throw stuph: spears, rocks: projectiles.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 19:26:26 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: Everyone
Subject: a few things before I have to split
Message:
I said I was signing off for a while a few days ago because I have to leave town for the rest of the month and wanted some time to get some work done. But, I've lurked and now can't resist commenting on something. First, thanks Shri K. for your kind, sensitive words of support. I keep saying 'if everyone lit just one little candle.' Your post came like a spray of mercy. Thanks again. Second, please Mr. Ex., what the hell are you talking about 'resign'? Why, we just got a new webmaster! This isn't fair. I can't wait for the details. If, indeed, M starts looking for a successor do you think he'll start with the old Mahatma/initiator/instructor/toady applications from the seventies or will we have to start all over again? Also, who gets the house? (I normally wouldn't think of applying but, having watched m fuck up so badly, and learning the little I've picked up here on basic cult management, I think I could do an okay job. Bobby, what do you think? OP, if I take over will you spin for me too? Mili, I'm not sure how much help I'll need. Don't call us, we'll call you. The other reason, of course, is that I still have some friends in Malibu and have always liked that part of L.A. In other words, I think I'm about as qualified as anyone. Perfect Master? Sure, why not? Someones gotta do it.) Item 2: I had the pleasure of learning about another stupid 'spiritual' practice yesterday: subud! Anyone ever hear of it? This Indonesian guy decided God was making his limbs move back in the 30s and he started a cult along those lines. What's striking about the group is that, like premies, they CLAIM to have no philosophy. Yet, like looking for animal outlines in a little kid's puzzle book ('hey, there's a mouse in that tree!), if you visit their web site and read about their 'undoctrine' you see all the dogma necessary for a cult. It just made me laugh to have this guy say they believe nothing at all, they only experience. How facile! Item 3: Katie, who I love dearly, offered Bobby the following advice: 'I am not sure what you can do about the situation between you and Jim. I think that your options are: 1. Quit posting on the forum 2. Continue posting on the forum and fighting with Jim. 3. Continue posting on the forum and ignore Jim. Of course, I'd prefer if you took the third option and just blew off Jim as 'a tiny fly buzzing around your head', or whatever Mickey/Michael said previously (it was a good quote). I certainly wouldn't think less of you if you did so, and I don't think anyone would either. You have a lot of other things to contribute to the forum besides your feelings about Jim. I understand where you are coming from when you say that it's hard to put up with Jim's attacks. I HATE being flamed - it can make me depressed for days - and it's very hard for me to resist responding. However, you have TRIED to respond to Jim with no success. At this point, I don't feel that any constructive dialogue is possible between you and Jim, at least for the moment, and I would like it if you quit wasting your time trying to answer him. But if you feel that you cannot continue posting on here if Jim is around, then I respect that too.' I disagree. For one thing, Bobby has another option which I'm so sorry Katie's apparently overlooked. It's the one I keep inviting him to exercise. He could simply discuss things rationally. All this personal stuff doesn't even come into play if people just discuss things fairly, rationally like adult human beings. I guess Katie agrees that there are other ways to look at things. Well, maybe there are but there sure aren't other ways to DISCUSS them. Bobby's problem is that he's extremely inconsistent in his views and doesn't let reason check his advances this way or that. That's a really bad way to think and communicate. It allows one to be completely hypocritical AND impervious to anyone pointing that out. I did just that to Bobby a few times -- and would continue every chance I get -- and he just couldn't handle it. He tried to turn words inside out, dance this way or that. Shit, you'd think I was a dentist or something. Too bad you have so little hope for Bobby, Katie. If I ever get to be Perfect Master I'm not sure if you'll even want to follow me! Things are really starting to fall apart. Item 4: Mili, you are a jerk. Mr. Ex tells you about something that m apparently said at this L.A. Conference and, rather than wish me luck in my application or anything even the slightest bit friendly, you pounce on him and accuse him of getting the message all wrong. Makes you look like an idiot. Katie's right. You have every right to call me one too. The difference, Mili, is that you are a jerk AND an idiot. I don't see how you could possibly say I'm both. I don't even think Katie would say you could. Item ... next item: OP, I see you're around. Why won't you answer me? I asked you if I could ever chat with your kids before they opted ('OPted' - get it?!) for special k. Please, OP, your thoughts? SUBUD!
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 20:15:08 (EST)
Poster: red hot
Email: bb
To: Jim
Subject: master (Re: a few things before I have to split)
Message:
You will need two personna's one public, and one private. How do you look in hat's? Plumpness can give you a youthful face. Mili will start a website with damning information. Your brother have a wife? You probabaly want a walking stick. JW maybe would be your valet. I'm a pilot. OP will keep your feet on the ground. Don't have a mistress for christs sake, that's the only thing that truely bugs my wife. She will allow for alot but that is really hard on the women, no pun intended. Sell off the crystal collection. The hundreds of watches, the bar, the cigarettes, good grief.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 20:46:02 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Jim
Subject: Re: a few things before I have to split
Message:
Dear Jim - I have long since given up hope of you and Bobby being able to have a rational discussion and that is why I didn't include it in my list of options. You two are not on the same wavelength, or, as I prefer to say: YOU AIN'T ON THE SAME PAGE (oops, sorry for yelling again. Twice in one night.) I have tried to mediate between the two of you, on and off site, and don't believe it's possible. Therefore I suggested that Bobby just ignore you, for his own, and our, peace of mind. May I suggest the same to you? Take care of yourself where you're going (& I hope you ate your black-eyed peas yesterday). Katie P.S. Thanks very much for the "love you dearly".
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 21:18:32 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: Katie
Subject: Re: a few things before I have to split
Message:
Katie, I forgot my peas and 1998 is turning into the worst year of my life! Why, last night it almost froze -- we had to bring the plants in -- and today's been mostly overcast. (No Mili, I'm not exaggerating. I could send you the local weather report if you don't believe me.) Katie, just for the record, will you please explain why you think Bobby and I will never enjoy a rational discussion? Is it because I'm unwilling or unable? Bobby? Both of us? See, as I remember it, Bobby eschewed reason as 'old school.' (This was when he was pontificating about having the courage to challenge one's own thinking, remember? The hypocrisy was so rich I couldn't help but point it out. Does any of this ring a bell?) I don't think there's anything toxic in the Jim/Bobby mix. I've cross-examined lots of people who, for one reason or another don't want to answer forthrightly. All it takes is a judge to direct them to do just that. Even the most evasive witness, the one you're sure either can't or won't ever 'get it', comes around at that point. What choice do they have? Here, of course, as you'll undoubtedly say, there is no judge. No one can make Bobby talk straight. But that's not because of me, is it? In this forum people invariably get challenged. My personal view, as you know too well, is that we should indeed 'pressure' each other into playing fair. That means 'no evasion.' If you disagree, fine. But this IS a fairly charged topic, isn't it? After all some people love the guy others are calling a fraud. And some think that spirituality's viable while others think they've learnt their lesson. There's bound to be some interesting confrontation. If all it takes to avoid answering things squarely is whining about how sensitive one is (still not quite sensitive enough, but working on it!), then NOTHING interesting is going to happen to anyone here. As Gurucharanand used to say 'Sharing without daring is like staring without scaring.' (or was it Rajeshwar?) You encouraged Bobby to just blow me off 'like a tiny fly buzzing' around his head. I understand you're not saying that you see me this way, just that it might 'work' for him. Well maybe. But 'tiny' Katie? 'Tiny'? Then you say that you think no one would think the less of him? Do you really believe that? Do you really believe that Bobby wouldn't look like a very coddled and protected hot house flower if he posted and pontificated to his heart's content but took no criticism? I don't think it would work myself. I think guys like Dr. K., bless his heart, would see through the arrangement. And even if you're right, who next? Mili? OP? What if OP starts crying about how she likes to post away here and really doesn't like being confronted? Does she go into the special care nursery too? And who will look after all the 'special posters'? I certainly don't have the time to cater to them like some internet tamagoutchi toys. Mind you, maybe it wan't me you were thinking of. Remember when Scott suggested a 'special' forum, where spirituality was not challenged, where, in fact, nothing was challenged, just a place to hang out and play 'quaker'?(Sorry Scott, but you know what I mean.) Remember how no one wanted to play there? Except Bobby, I mean? That's because this is more real. We've all had enough bullshit to last a lifetime.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 22:27:33 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email:
To: Jim
Subject: Re: a few things before I have to split
Message:
Jim - shame on you for forgetting to eat your peas. (No wonder Canada is having so many problems...) The reason that I think that you and Bobby will never enjoy a rational discussion? First, let me make it clear that I would LOVE it if you guys could enjoy a rational discussion. But as I said before, I don't think that you and Bobby are on the same page; the same wavelength; the same whatever. I DO think that there's something not so great in the Jim/Bobby mix. And I'm not going to say who caused it either because I don't really know. If Bobby has a hard time dealing with you, then what's the problem with him blowing you off? Forget the word "tiny" - I'm sorry I used it and I didn't mean it personally. Why do you care if he answers you or not? Other people do confront Bobby, by the way, and he does answer it. It's just YOU that he has trouble dealing with. Isn't that OK? Would you rather that he didn't post on here at all? I don't think it makes him look like a "hot house flower" (and I despise making this issue into a macho thing, by the way). I personally don't answer posts of people that I feel that I cannot communicate productively with, and, at this point, I DO NOT feel like you and Bobby can communicate with each other to any purpose. Maybe later, who knows? Take care of yourself, Jim. Katie
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 22:32:36 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email:
To: Jim
Subject: And one more thing (Re: a few things before I have to split)
Message:
Dear Jim - I forgot to say that I am tired of getting stuck inbetween you guys. Perhaps you and Bobby could take it: 1. off-line (e-mail) 2. off-line (by phone) 3. into an alley somewhere, as Bobby keeps suggesting. Sincerely, Katie
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 22:52:29 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: Katie
Subject: Re: And one more thing (Re: a few things before I have to split)
Message:
Dear Jim - I forgot to say that I am tired of getting stuck inbetween you guys. Perhaps you and Bobby could take it: 1. off-line (e-mail) 2. off-line (by phone) 3. into an alley somewhere, as Bobby keeps suggesting. Sincerely, Katie Katie, How'd you get in between? I stopped invoking your judgement back around when you told me to. I think the proper forum for discussion is, well, right here on this discussion forum. Why go elsewhere? If Bobby, Mili or anyone says anything someone disagrees with, this is the place to hash it out. Same for me of course.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 23:13:16 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: Katie
Subject: Re: a few things before I have to split
Message:
Jim - shame on you for forgetting to eat your peas. (No wonder Canada is having so many problems...) The reason that I think that you and Bobby will never enjoy a rational discussion? First, let me make it clear that I would LOVE it if you guys could enjoy a rational discussion. But as I said before, I don't think that you and Bobby are on the same page; the same wavelength; the same whatever. I DO think that there's something not so great in the Jim/Bobby mix. And I'm not going to say who caused it either because I don't really know. If Bobby has a hard time dealing with you, then what's the problem with him blowing you off? Forget the word 'tiny' - I'm sorry I used it and I didn't mean it personally. Why do you care if he answers you or not? Other people do confront Bobby, by the way, and he does answer it. It's just YOU that he has trouble dealing with. Isn't that OK? Would you rather that he didn't post on here at all? I don't think it makes him look like a 'hot house flower' (and I despise making this issue into a macho thing, by the way). I personally don't answer posts of people that I feel that I cannot communicate productively with, and, at this point, I DO NOT feel like you and Bobby can communicate with each other to any purpose. Maybe later, who knows? Take care of yourself, Jim. Katie Katie, you's wrong, honey. About the 'page, wavelength' thing. Here's why. If Bobby were to preach his stuff to, let's say my mother, it'd be futile. Lucky girl, she's never really delved into eastern mysticism and metaphysics like I have. But, you see, I have. Hey, suprise, surprise, I was a premie, remember? And before that a very earnest spiritually-oriented hippie. My girlfriend was a yoga teacher. Her whole family were yoga teachers. I don't think Bobby's trading in any concepts I'm unfamiliar with. True, I certainly don't remember much of my sanskrit terminology. (Yech! Why would I want to?) But that doesn't mean I don't 'get it.' Just that I'm no longer impressed by it all. You are really doing me a bit of an injustice if you treat me like some western materialist who's never experienced the magic of the orient. I've been there, think it's all bullshit now and am willing to discuss it with anyone who preaches it to me. The only thing missing is Bobby's willingness to actually discuss his ideas. Not my ability to grasp the exotic and transcendental pre-literative state of snapcrackleandpop. How about you? Do you believe all that stuff?
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jan 3, 1998 at 00:15:50 (EST)
Poster: op, your local whirling dervish
Email:
To: Jim
Subject: Re: a few things before you split (Re: a few things before I have to split)
Message:
Hi Jim: I haven't answered you about talking to my kids because I'm still mulling it over. Of course, they all have their own questions, criticisms, observations. They've all gone through moments of asking about receiving Knowledge and being completely turned off to it. I'm not sure if I'd like to introduce them to your brand of proseletyzing. Even though they're all pretty good at tossing darts at each other, I don't know how well they'd take it from a stranger who acts as though he knows their innermost selves. If it were face to face it would be easier. No time to think about the responses, and a more physical mode. As I said elsewhere, we are all virtual here, and the arguments take on degenerate surrealistic aspects that real confrontation would not. As for my other post - it's hard for me to define and redefine my relationship to M. As I think I've mentioned in other places, I don't feel the separation that you do. He has manifested so many aspects of my own self. I'm not trying to be revisionist here, although I do watch my words. You've asked me some point blank questions and I tried to answer them, by email or otherwise. You didn't like my responses, so what's the sense in repeating them? If you want, as a going away present I will email you answers to any and all questions you ask now. I can't promise that I'll put anything up on the forum, but then the rest don't seem to be particularly interested in the same things anyway. What is true is that I feel I came into M's world carrying a big burden of intellectual knowledge. Having studied world religion, eastern languages, etc., I thought I knew it all. He matched everything I thought I knew, and gave it back to me with a simple and delicate humor. I was as confused as anyone when I saw bits and pieces of him that didn't make sense. But there was always the wink of an eye, a simple understanding that all that stuff was bs and didn't matter anyway. I love and adore him. But that doesn't make me blind or a slave. Sorry if we see things differently. I felt guilty and torn when I got married, and that lasted until I realized that it was only I who was judging myself, that he hadn't relegated me to the corners of hell for breaking the ashram rules. I know some people for whom he has been heavy. I have a good friend who received a directive NOT to get married. I think she's still sore about it (she's not practicing either), but I also can see that the marriage she was contemplating would not have lasted. I've seen him angry, and I know how heavy that can be (I'm not sure if I reached Burke's number 4, but pretty close). But he's never directed that anger toward me. And I know others for whom he has been a devoted friend for years and years. People who come to see him only when he does an event in their city, but continue to feel an incredible closeness to him. Some of them lived ashram lives, others didn't. Not everyone had the same negative experience. I HAVE received thanks from him for things I/we have done at events and otherwise. And as I implied in my post, he's helped me learn to walk on my own, taught me responsibility and definitely helped me overcome a problem with procrastination I've had since a child (still working on it, but I'm 300% better than I was 20 years ago). So I feel grateful. And even if he were to leave tomorrow, it wouldn't change what I have experienced with him. Not that I think he will. Maybe one of you will watch the Long Beach videos - he's pretty committed to what he does, even though he IS wearing out his body doing it. I'll end now, and I'm posting without proofreading or undue editing, so if you find stuff to blast, so be it.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jan 3, 1998 at 00:31:40 (EST)
Poster: Maliberry RFD
Email: bb
To: op, your local whirling dervish
Subject: opie (Re: a few things before I have to split)
Message:
That would be Barbara Kolodny right? and mike donner? Nice to see you talk at length, I don't think other people edit thier comments but maybe they do. It would be interesting to hear your responses if you wanted to post them.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jan 3, 1998 at 01:01:17 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email:
To: Jim
Subject: Re: And one more thing (Re: a few things before I have to split)
Message:
Jim - you are right that I put myself inbetween you guys (mea culpa etc., etc.) so I have only myself to blame (etc. etc.) As far as where you and Bobby should take the argument, I would suggest that you guys actually try and TALK to each other - perhaps over the phone, or via e-mail. The dark alley doesn't strike me as such a good idea. Hashing things out on the forum hasn't worked up till now (for you and Bobby, that is) - I'm curious as to what makes you think it will work now.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jan 3, 1998 at 01:10:27 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email:
To: Jim
Subject: Re: a few things before I have to split
Message:
Jim, honey - I've never questioned your "spiritual trip" credentials" - I am sure they are as intact as mine or Bobby's are. What I am talking about is ways of thinking and communicating. (BTW, I work with some people who can't talk to each other and none of them has ever heard of "eastern mysticism and metaphysics".) I am talking about your ability to hear what Bobby says when he writes something to you AND Bobby's ability to hear what you say when you write something to him.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jan 3, 1998 at 03:13:57 (EST)
Poster: katy
Email: bb
To: Katie
Subject: did (Re: a few things before I have to split)
Message:
well, the test of the moment is in the 'message in a bottle' post
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jan 3, 1998 at 05:54:24 (EST)
Poster: Mr Ex
Email:
To: Jim
Subject: Re: a few things before I have to split
Message:
>Second, please Mr. Ex., what the hell are you talking about 'resign'? Resign means RESIGN, RETIRE. Whether or not he’s going to do it is another story. >If, indeed, M starts looking for a successor do you think he'll start with the old >Mahatma/initiator/instructor/toady applications from the seventies or will we have to >start all over again? Also, who gets the house? Who knows ? The house as well as lands, jet, productions companies and lots of other things are his. He will keep making some money if IRS doesn’t catch him. EV and organizations are legally linked to Mr Rawat. If he finds a successor, they will have to start everything their own way. You can also imagine different persons claiming here and there that they are new satgurus, like what happened in most of the successions cases in Radhasoami. Business is business ! >The other reason, of course, is that I still have some friends in Malibu and have always >liked that part of L.A. In other words, I think I'm about as qualified as anyone. Perfect >Master? Sure, why not? Someones gotta do it.) Why don’t you call these guys and ask them what they think? My feeling, according to some conversations I had with premie friends is that he is going to be very low key in 98. He is going to have some big 3-4 days events here and there, spend time on his lands, that might allow him not to use his millions $ consuming jet. Maybe also take care of his health. Premies will have ‘incredible experiences’ during these ‘out of the world’ events, and that will keep them busy ‘longing’ for a while. Same BS as in the 80s. Regarding his retirement, that might be the beginning of an interesting saga for the coming months or years.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jan 3, 1998 at 09:36:10 (EST)
Poster: odl to you
Email:
To: Maliberry RFD
Subject: Re: opie (Re: a few things before I have to split)
Message:
That would be Barbara Kolodny right? and mike donner? Nice to see you talk at length, I don't think other people edit thier comments but maybe they do. It would be interesting to hear your responses if you wanted to post them. Hey bb: I think we do know a lot of the same people. We'd probably have a lot to talk about at a New Year's Eve party - but that's already passed. Comment on message in a bottle: Bobby received Knowledge back in 71. I know because we were in India together that year. And he lived in the NY ashram for a while, so he got a taste of the old times. That he refers to a 'mantra' is not odd - because the old knowledge sessions gave you a sound to follow with your breath. M no longer does that, as you probably know. What about Barbara Kolodney? Have you heard anything about her recently? Last I heard she was married and rather angry with M.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jan 3, 1998 at 12:34:37 (EST)
Poster: maliberry RFD
Email: bb
To: odl to you
Subject: OPIE (Re: a few things before I have to split)
Message:
barbara was my kind of instructor, and Joan, and some others that I forget right at this moment maharaji told her to have kids and she resisted, then he came and talked to herabout not confusing the new people I was not sure what that meant at the time although actually I guess I did, I remember hearing it was about her devotional stance. I heard she did get married and had kids but was pissed. I couldn't understand it and just overlooked anything that would wierd me out. It's actually good that maharaji has come to the conclusion about giving out good stuff vs. harsh stuff, You know, milis' post. (that punctuation is right I think brian, it connotates ownership, milis' post) Anyway, in 1990 or so, mahraji said Amar shut ms' finger in the door of the car and he started to blow up but he saw it was freaking amar out and he made a big comment about he realized he could tone down his reaction for the benefit of the other persons feelings. I remember thinking 'I'm ahead of you on that one.' That's not a realization I was discovering in 1990. At the time I figured for some reason he has always had this rage problem and I guess he still is learning things about that. But as of last dec. he was still running quite hot. and milis' post shows to me that although mili could see it from an angle of this is a good comment, it also shows what he has just learned because that is exactly how he talks, he says just exactly where he is at right now and what he has recently learned. that is precisely what his talks consist of besides certain trueisms and examples that are not new. Maybe I didn't say that clearly but the stuff about love and hate is his latest realization. got to go.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jan 3, 1998 at 13:03:03 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: maliberry RFD
Subject: Re: OPIE (Re: a few things before I have to split)
Message:
barbara was my kind of instructor, and Joan, and some others that I forget right at this moment maharaji told her to have kids and she resisted, then he came and talked to herabout not confusing the new people I was not sure what that meant at the time although actually I guess I did, I remember hearing it was about her devotional stance. I heard she did get married and had kids but was pissed. I couldn't understand it and just overlooked anything that would wierd me out. Are you saying Barbara Kolodney was pissed? And about what? I did hear that she left Maharaji and was not happy with him. I also recall Barbara giving that "super-heavy" satsang at the ashram meeting at the bug-infested Kissimmee swamp in I think 1979. That was the one where she said we were all "beggars" and that "beggars can't be choosers" and basically we were lucky that Maharaji bothered even talking to us. Of course, that was the same program where Maharaji said we didn't even have the right to look at him, and that he had created us. No ego THERE! It was also the same program where Mahraji bragged about the "wall of air conditioning" that surrounded the oh-so-technically-advanced throne he sad on, while the premies roasted in the Florida sun. Anyhow, after Barbara spoke, Maharaji showed up and was equally heavy but later talked about the fact that he was looking at land in Florida for a big farm where we all would live. I guess after all the outrageous talk, the idea of living on some farm with him and Barbara and people like David Smith, sounded to me like hell on earth, and visions of Jonestown danced in my head. I remember thinking "my god, I'm in a bizarre cult!" Of course, I immediately repressed that, but I will always remember the feeling I had of those faint attempts to think for myself. I felt guilty, but invigorated at the same time. JW
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jan 3, 1998 at 22:02:46 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: op, your local whirling dervish
Subject: Re: a few things before you split (Re: a few things before I have to split)
Message:
OP, If I talk with your kids, I won't bite. You know that. You can even listen in if we do it by phone. Email would work too. Think about it. You say: 'I love and adore him. But that doesn't make me blind or a slave.' How do you know you're not blind? Frankly, my dear, that's exactly how you strike me. If you're not, prove it. Criticize him. Come on, tell us what you don't like about m. What about his personality would you say is LESS than perfect? You've known him for years. This should be easy, right? Just tell us one or two personality traits of m's that you don't like. (And, please, I'm not asking for 'sometimes he's too generous with his time and his health gets run down and that really bothers me' or anything of the sort. I'm asking for real personality defects. Surely he's got some, doesn't he? I mean nobody's perfect, are they?) You also say: 'And I know others for whom he has been a devoted friend for years and years.' Tell me, OP, what m's ever done for anyone? (Here, too, I'm not asking you to tell me all the times he's made sure that so and so gets a backstage pass. I'm asking about real acts of friendship. What? He's leant his cars to a few guys? Gave someone a few old suits? Granted a private audience to some lucky soul? What is the measure of HIS 'devotion'?)
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jan 4, 1998 at 01:57:31 (EST)
Poster: op
Email:
To: Jim
Subject: Re: another longwinded post to come (Re: a few things before I have to split)
Message:
Hi Jim: I don't want to respond to this on line, because it will probably cost me a fortune. I've printed the message out and I'll write up something. Whether it goes to you by email or here remains to be seen. BTW, I have stated some criticisms of M - several times - on the forum and in the newsgroup. Remember I don't expect him to be bodily perfect? As for favors that M does for people - gee... if you discount backstage passes, there go 95% of them :) Seriously, you'll probably discount most of what I say anyway. But I'll get a few examples to you. BTW #2: what would YOU guys do if M were actually to resign?
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jan 4, 1998 at 15:39:06 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: op
Subject: Re: another longwinded post to come (Re: a few things before I have to split)
Message:
Hi Jim: I don't want to respond to this on line, because it will probably cost me a fortune. I've printed the message out and I'll write up something. Whether it goes to you by email or here remains to be seen. BTW, I have stated some criticisms of M - several times - on the forum and in the newsgroup. Remember I don't expect him to be bodily perfect? As for favors that M does for people - gee... if you discount backstage passes, there go 95% of them :) Seriously, you'll probably discount most of what I say anyway. But I'll get a few examples to you. BTW #2: what would YOU guys do if M were actually to resign? Why wait? What's so difficult about simply answering the question? Your personality defects .... I don't know you hardly. I can't answer that. Mine? I'm lazy, selfish, disorganized and... those are the main ones. Really, OP, it ain't a big deal. I'm just asking you to describe some of the man's HUMAN parameters. And no, I can't recall you ever having done so. Maybe we can start with that.... where have you PREVIOUSLY... described the limits of his personality? As for what we'd do, I don't know. What would YOU do?
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jan 4, 1998 at 16:25:39 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: op
Subject: Re: another longwinded post to come (Re: a few things before I have to split)
Message:
Hi Jim: I don't want to respond to this on line, because it will probably cost me a fortune. I've printed the message out and I'll write up something. Whether it goes to you by email or here remains to be seen. BTW, I have stated some criticisms of M - several times - on the forum and in the newsgroup. Remember I don't expect him to be bodily perfect? As for favors that M does for people - gee... if you discount backstage passes, there go 95% of them :) Seriously, you'll probably discount most of what I say anyway. But I'll get a few examples to you. op wrote: BTW #2: what would YOU guys do if M were actually to resign? Probably pick up the pieces. I suspect that there would be more that quite a few traumatized premies if Maharaji actually resigned.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 19:13:55 (EST)
Poster: John Cavad
Email:
To: Everyone
Subject: Ashram ex-premies are hateful
Message:
For 14 years, I've been away from all this. I never knew what would become of ashram premies when they'd drop out, not until now. You guys/girls are almost unreal..filled with more anger and hate than I could have ever imagined. Fortunately, even while I was a very devout devotee, I realized that living like a monk/nun was not for me, that it was absolutely crazy. I knew it then, and refused to be peer presured into it. I suppose I was blessed with a tiny part of my brain still my own. Why did you stay in the ashram that long if you felt you were sacrificing so much of yourselves? I thought you all wanted to be there, but I can see now that you NEVER wanted to be there. You were not honest with your own feelings. Otherwise you wouldn't be so hateful now. Were you really living a total lie? I feel badly for all of you, for all your suffering. I wish you all the best.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 19:43:18 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: John Cavad
Subject: Re: Ashram ex-premies are hateful
Message:
John, You're pissing me off. Think for a minute before you generalize so self-righteously. We moved into the ashram because we trusted m. We stayed there, often when we didn't want to because -- that's right -- we trusted m. He was our guru, remember? What's wrong with you? Ain't you never heard of a guru before? Man!! So, you were a 'very devout' premie but you realized surrendering your life fully to m, which is what the ashram was supposedly a step towards, was a little tricky. Crazy? How astute. You resisted the 'peer pressure'? How strong. I wasn't so lucky. I trusted m and, like the song said, listened for his every whisper. The peer pressure came from his chosen disciples and, once you got INTO the ashram, from m himself. So you hedged your bets and, as it turns out, didn't lose as much. Some gambled more and lost more. Well doesn't that just make you look like a pillar of love and wisdom? That 'tiny part of your brain still [your] own' was the part m jealously fought for. Didn't you notice? Some of us trusted him enough to actually try to help him get it. You didn't. Good for you.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 20:04:14 (EST)
Poster: John Cavad
Email:
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Ashram ex-premies are hateful
Message:
Jim, I'm so glad I pissed someone off. I never seem to piss anyone off. I figured you'd be the easiest one to piss off. All I had to do is imply that you're an angry man. Thanks, man. You made my day before I leave this forum (at least for now). OP said I take this forum too seriously and should add a sense of humor. Well, there. Few of you know I was a professional entertainer in my day. Anyway, the truth is I'm not an angry guy because I never surrendered everything. Yes, I did hedge. And as an expert in finance and contracts, I knew from my gut and my "mind" to hold onto some of my cards. Anyone in love knows, you never can trust your lover 100 percent. Even when two tarantulars make love, the male holds the female's front legs at bay, just in case she tries to sting him during the act. Regardless, Jim. Don't bother being pissed at me. I'm not some arrogant ass. Best Wishes , and have fun in the Gaslamp.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 20:40:44 (EST)
Poster: naughty
Email: bb
To: John Cavad
Subject: BUT nice (Re: Ashram ex-premies are hateful )
Message:
John, were you in miami? during maharaji's stay there? I thought ashram premies ran pretty hot while they were in there, but I wanted in too. They didn't let me in because I gave such unusual satsang. But really they had it hard, lots of pressure, awful food, no freedom, constant domination, repetitive talk, pictures in the bathroom, everywhere, no sex, unending constant worship was the great goal, maniac instructors plowing through town every month, nothing whatsoever for you but the thrill of worship. No surprise that lava can flow! For me this is sort of an island, sometimes someone calls out "now boarding, flight to the clear light of R...Das" and I recoile in the horror of re-entrapment, or someone cheerfully presents buddism as a bridge to understanding life and I run while throwing stones over my back, it's not an easy next step after the living lord is dethroned in your head. It makes for a hot scene or it could, whatever did you settle for after maharaji? Christianity? Some form of independence? what kind of view did you sort of settle on? I won't poke it with a stick or anything, that is part of the conversation here. You are welcome to stay a while longer, we run in cycles here, we have had previous era's of smoochies here and we could have one in your honor.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 22:00:43 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: John Cavad
Subject: Re: Ashram ex-premies are hateful
Message:
Forgiven.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 23:30:18 (EST)
Poster: Brian
Email:
To: naughty
Subject: Re: BUT nice (Re: Ashram ex-premies are hateful )
Message:
I thought ashram premies ran pretty hot while they were in there, but I wanted in too. They didn't let me in because I gave such unusual satsang. No offense, Bill, but I had to laugh out loud at THIS one! What did they say about it? I mean, how did they describe it when they were walking you quickly to the door? "Lotus Feet - that's acceptable, Bb's satsang - no way"?
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jan 3, 1998 at 08:44:25 (EST)
Poster: seymour
Email: seymour_t@rocketmail.com
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Ashram ex-premies are hateful
Message:
I like John did not move into the ashram but you did not have to do that to be totaly devoted. If everything you did you had to consider whether M would approve, if every night you spent in satsang, if you meditated 3 or 4 hours a day and especially if you lived in a house full of fanatical devotees it could be worse than living in the ashram. How much you suffered as a result of seeing M as something less than divine depended on how much you gave your heart - although it must hurt even more if you gave all your worldly goods also. I don't blame you for being a little peeved - it seems a lot like being let down by your nearest and dearest who turns out to be someone different to the person you 'married'. Devotion is the strongest form of love they say.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jan 3, 1998 at 11:26:28 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: seymour
Subject: Re: Ashram ex-premies are hateful
Message:
Devotion is the strongest form of love they say. Devotion might be a lot of things, but it definitely isn't "love." It is better categorized in the "sickness" category.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jan 3, 1998 at 17:49:59 (EST)
Poster: Tony
Email:
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Ashram ex-premies are hateful
Message:
I never met such a crowd of crying..anal retards. Ever thought of trying to grow up? Get over it.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jan 3, 1998 at 21:31:09 (EST)
Poster: Gosh-O-
Email: bb
To: Tony
Subject: Willikers (Re: Ashram ex-premies are hateful )
Message:
oh thank you, That was the slap of sanity I needed
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jan 4, 1998 at 00:24:27 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: Tony
Subject: Re: Ashram ex-premies are hateful
Message:
I never met such a crowd of crying..anal retards. "Anal retards?" A bowel disease maybe?
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 19:03:34 (EST)
Poster: Kathryn
Email:
To: Everyone
Subject: How to identify bill burke's posts
Message:
Bill Burke (a pseudonym, I think), has started identifying his posts by putting "bb" in the space for e-mail address (most of the time, anyway). Now if only all the OTHER people who like to use a different pseudonym every time would do something like this. It would make it easier on the rest of us boring people who use the same name every time we post.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 21:19:06 (EST)
Poster: freak
Email: buzzbee
To: Kathryn
Subject: will (Re: How to identify bill burke's posts)
Message:
not a psychonym by the way, I thought the lunacy was identification enough. Gaseous eruptions of smoky blabber. Sentences that never end, subjects never brought up in 'real' life, cross dressing on the internet, pretending to be myself when I call Jim for what to say everyday, accidentally pounding on op annie and cd during a stressful little period over the holidays, picking on my poor guru when he loves me, foolishly freely providing info for someone elses book, treasonously hiding the identity of the mr ex when he is the target of a divine hunt, noisefully crossing over in a messy public display showing a lack of discretion and sanity, discovering the two faced track record of god on earth, finding fault with virtually every group of god education, coming back to the lifeforce again and again, accepting? that the god likes it this way because the free will option was chosen and this is the natural fragmented result.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 22:07:26 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email:
To: Bill
Subject: True poetry (Re: How to identify bill burke's posts)
Message:
Incredible poetry, bill (I am serious). Who are you, anyway? I will save it, just in case we merit an ex-premie anthology.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 23:20:26 (EST)
Poster: Brian
Email:
To: Katie
Subject: Re: True poetry (Re: How to identify bill burke's posts)
Message:
Incredible poetry, bill (I am serious). Who are you, anyway? I will save it, just in case we merit an ex-premie anthology. But.. but, KATIE!! Who's gonna devote their life to punctuating them??? Who's gonna live that long?
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 17:10:08 (EST)
Poster: John Cavad
Email:
To: Everyone
Subject: GMJ's Health: Good or Bad?
Message:
Does anyone have "knowledge" as to GMJ's health? I got the impression from someone's recent posting that it may be an issue.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 12:19:43 (EST)
Poster: John Cavad
Email:
To: Everyone
Subject: Finding Closure
Message:
What does finding closure mean...to us ex-premies? It means letting go completely. Letting go of the pain, the anger, and most difficult, forgiving yourself. I still haven't completely found it, and I can't imagine how those premies who spent years of sacrifice in ashrams will ever find it. I was able to reverse most of my mistakes, however painful that was for me. But I still am haunted by the years of brainwashing I was exposed to. Nobody should be upset with ex-premies like Jim. He, like many others, are so very angry and still working through reaching a point of closure. Dropping out of a cult doesn't mean you've found closure. It means you're now up against the scariest, most frightful face in life: your own.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 13:02:22 (EST)
Poster: John K.
Email: proud2BNX
To: John Cavad
Subject: Re: Finding Closure
Message:
You know, in a way this whole subject 'finding closure' might just be one I don't understand. Because, I don't really find it necessary to 'find closure'. I think it (involvement with GMJ) basically ended for me 15 years ago. There is another way to look at the past, instead of agonizing and ridiculing it, to feel proud of it. I am proud I have done what I have done, for the most part. Obviously, I have made mistakes, but take for example, following GMJ. At the time, for me, it was not that easy to follow him: it was taking a huge step away from most of my friends. THEY were convinced I was an idiot! I was convinced I was onto something. I think it would have been easier for me to go along with the crowd, my friends, and make fun of meditation, gurus, spiritual knowledge, etc than to follow what my instincts were telling me to do, which was to check it out. Sure, eventually, I had to change again, and move away from the group I was so involved with. And again, I am proud that I got myself out, it was not easy at all, it was like slogging through quicksand, but I did it. Change is the only constant in life. My college age kids are home visiting, and the subject of the guru came up, and they said they thought it was really cool that one time in my life I followed a guru. They are not embarassed about it at all. Unless you know exactly what profession you want to dedicate your life to, being 20 years old is not that easy. So, I and most of us on this forum, did something dramatically different, something that only a tiny % of the population does. Again, there are two ways to look at it, to ridicule it or to simply accept it as a necessary learning experience. Hey! I got the knowledge you can't get in college!!
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 13:20:14 (EST)
Poster: John Cavad
Email:
To: John K.
Subject: Re: Finding Closure
Message:
John K., very good retrospect and a healthy one. I also agree. I am also proud that I did something so wild and different from the usual flock of sheep. It did take courage to join such a differnt drummer with all the oppostion facing those that were members.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 19:21:20 (EST)
Poster: Gregg
Email: gpainter@dnvr.uswet.net
To: John K.
Subject: Re: Finding Closure
Message:
John K., I feel that way too. GMJ was an entry top the spiritual path for me. Not the best god/guru, but it was a start. And I had plenty of hours of meditation. Invaluable. Hard to come by now, as a family man. For Westerners, overly rational as we are, devotion is a balancing path - or aspect to a path - maybe - it could also be argued that a more dispassionate Buddhism is more in keeping with our nature. Anyway, although I don't discuss it much with strangers, I am happy with my longtime gone involvement with this questionable guru. After all, many of us have made pretty ridiculous romantic choices, haven't we?
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 20:11:15 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: Gregg
Subject: Re: Finding Closure
Message:
How simplistic! If a shark attacks but from a less-than-ideal angle -- or maybe your wet suit's too thick or something -- he's still a shark. So m didn't get his claws that deep into you. All that means is that you resisted his siren call. Good for you. It says nothing about him other than that he's got a less than perfect batting record. As for 'maybe - it could also be argued that a more dispassionate Buddhism is more in keeping with our nature' -- think a bit. Not a single one of your ancestors was dispassionate. The dispassionate ones didn't breed and raise children, did they? Your nature, like it or not, is to cling to life and strive for much of what it offers. You're free to act otherwise but it's not by virtue of your nature. Think about it.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jan 3, 1998 at 07:58:45 (EST)
Poster: Seymour
Email:
To: John K.
Subject: Re: Finding Closure
Message:
I am afraid I do feel embarrassed at my lack of perspicacity (I think that's the word) and dissapointed at my failure to become 'enlightened' as was promised. I'd rather people did not know that I lost my head to an Indian Guru and I think I would probably be better of having not done it at all.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jan 5, 1998 at 23:05:03 (EST)
Poster: Andrew
Email:
To: John Cavad
Subject: Re: Finding Closure
Message:
What does finding closure mean...to us ex-premies? It means letting go completely. Letting go of the pain, the anger, and most difficult, forgiving yourself. I still haven't completely found it, and I can't imagine how those premies who spent years of sacrifice in ashrams will ever find it. I was able to reverse most of my mistakes, however painful that was for me. But I still am haunted by the years of brainwashing I was exposed to. Nobody should be upset with ex-premies like Jim. He, like many others, are so very angry and still working through reaching a point of closure. Dropping out of a cult doesn't mean you've found closure. It means you're now up against the scariest, most frightful face in life: your own. I've had an interesting time of it lately. I've been a premie for a number of years, lived in the 'shram, , meditated regularly, have tried to help out where I could... in short I have deeply enjoyed Maharaji and his Knowledge. However, lately my life has changed and my focus has shifted to more worldly interests, you know a pretty wife and raising 1.5 kids in the comfortable home with a good income, blah, blah, blah... the yuppie dream. The interesting thing is I just can't leave Maharaji and Knowledge behind, even though I am torn to do so. But it's not because of brainwashing or coersion as many of you guys claim is at the root of your confusion. I believe I'm a rational thinker who's ready to embrace life's events without too much fear. No, I can't leave because the fruits of Knowledge are undeniably real. For example, I miss the feeling of completion that comes from a heart that is full. I miss the simple truth that was always a vector in my life. I miss the words of encouragement that always helped me through difficult times. I miss the hope that comes from experiencing something that is truly bigger than myself. I miss the feeling of compassion that comes from having my life in synch with my deepest yearnings. But these feelings cause me much pain, not because I am under the control of a despotic and evil force, but because I know I turn my back on the only real joy I've ever experienced. I suppose I could get angry at that joy for not letting me settle for less. I suppose I could hold Maharaji responsible for revealing that joy to me and "ruining" my chances for normalcy. I suppose I could pretend I didn't have any say in the choices I've made. But I don't because I know what is causing my pain. It is simply me trying to walk away from something I know is real, and when I look in the mirror, I can't deny it. I would be fooling myself to think I could be "healed" by something other than the source of healing, that is emersion in the fountain of true kindness that is within. So I'll grant you Maharaji *could* be accused of showing me too much. Didn't he know that the beauty he revealed would continue to haunt me even as I try to walk away? Yes he knew. But I asked to be shown. So where's the blame?
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jan 6, 1998 at 08:30:37 (EST)
Poster: Brian
Email:
To: Andrew
Subject: Re: Finding Closure
Message:
I've had an interesting time of it lately. I've been a premie for a number of years, lived in the 'shram, , meditated regularly, have tried to help out where I could... in short I have deeply enjoyed Maharaji and his Knowledge. However, lately my life has changed and my focus has shifted to more worldly interests, you know a pretty wife and raising 1.5 kids in the comfortable home with a good income, blah, blah, blah... the yuppie dream. The interesting thing is I just can't leave Maharaji and Knowledge behind, even though I am torn to do so. But it's not because of brainwashing or coersion as many of you guys claim is at the root of your confusion. I believe I'm a rational thinker who's ready to embrace life's events without too much fear. No, I can't leave because the fruits of Knowledge are undeniably real. For example, I miss the feeling of completion that comes from a heart that is full. I miss the simple truth that was always a vector in my life. I miss the words of encouragement that always helped me through difficult times. I miss the hope that comes from experiencing something that is truly bigger than myself. I miss the feeling of compassion that comes from having my life in synch with my deepest yearnings. But these feelings cause me much pain, not because I am under the control of a despotic and evil force, but because I know I turn my back on the only real joy I've ever experienced. I suppose I could get angry at that joy for not letting me settle for less. I suppose I could hold Maharaji responsible for revealing that joy to me and 'ruining' my chances for normalcy. I suppose I could pretend I didn't have any say in the choices I've made. But I don't because I know what is causing my pain. It is simply me trying to walk away from something I know is real, and when I look in the mirror, I can't deny it. I would be fooling myself to think I could be 'healed' by something other than the source of healing, that is emersion in the fountain of true kindness that is within. So I'll grant you Maharaji *could* be accused of showing me too much. Didn't he know that the beauty he revealed would continue to haunt me even as I try to walk away? Yes he knew. But I asked to be shown. So where's the blame? This is the paradox that involvement with MJ creates in people. If you think about it, and I'm sure that you will in the coming months, you may find what many of us found. We came into the whole MJ/Knowledge thing not separating the two of them. We weren't devotees of MJ who suddenly decided to also want the experience of Knowledge, and we weren't people who already had that experience who suddenly chose to find someone else to attribute it to. In the progression that MJ laid out then (and still does now) for "aspirants" who want Knowledge, there are points where he begins to touch on "devotion" or "gratitude" and the importance that they serve in our lives. We sit drinking in his words about Knowledge and overlooking the subtle flavoring of the talk of devotion, and the bizarre pramaming that we witness. What happens over time, as our thirst for Knowledge grows through listening to his satsang, is that we internally link the two. Ex's here might say that this process is cold-bloodedly intentional on MJ's part, and hold him responsible for using the internal validation of our own experience to cause us to also accept the notion that he personally is somehow responsible for our own inate ability to experience joy, happiness, or anything else that comes with this life. Only when this internal linking is accomplished are we perceived as being "ready" to receive the free "gift". He since has used that internal link as leverage to keep sincere seekers of Knowledge trapped in the web of devotion to himself. Let me ask you something - When he keels over dead (and a new "Perfect Master" inherits his estate, jet, and fleet of cars) THEN who is going to be the source of your joy in life? His son? His daughter? His wife? His attorney? You must understand that you owe him NOTHING! YOU are the source of your joy in life. YOU reside in your body. You turn your attention INWARD when you meditate, and experience YOUR Self, not his. If on some level(?) we share something in common, he is not the cosmic repository of that any more than I am. You could become devoted to me, or anyone else if you choose to (or are naively led to). It's only when you grasp that YOU are the central core that all of your life's experiences have revolved around, that you will understand that you have INDEED been "brainwashed" (read "misled" if you find it easier) into believing that serving MJ's whims is serving your self. Donating to MJ's wealth is providing for your self. And believing that MJ is somehow responsible for your breath will keep you chained to that internal thought process that he alone benefits from. Good luck to you.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 12:07:43 (EST)
Poster: John Cavad
Email:
To: Everyone
Subject: Fatalist
Message:
Premies, like all cult followers believe heavily in fate and destiny. They've been dealt their hand, and how life unfolds has little to do with them and everything to do with destiny. As a premie, you don't blame yourself for your actions or inactions because this is the hand you've been dealt. Your motto is, "Whatever will be, will be." Hopefully, as ex-premies you are now saying, "If it's to be, it's up to me."
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 12:48:03 (EST)
Poster: Bobby
Email:
To: John Cavad
Subject: Re: Fatalist
Message:
I see life as a combination of events, a grand drama played out with all the pieces and players profoundly interconnected in many dimensions. For those interested, in Buddhism this is called referred to as mahamudra, the great symbol. In modern speculative physics, this is quantum interconnectivity. We have choice and degrees of free-will. However, we are born into circumstance and circumstance affects us. Contrary to New Age solipsism, we are not the total creators of our own reality. Rather I see us as co-producers in a drama that is co-evolutionary. The Hindu Puranas express this "co-creational" drama quite well through the stories of Siva, Parvati, Rama, Sita, Ravana, Hanuman and the rest. These players are mythic archetypes. As humans we can tune to these are types, even "realize" these archetypes.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 19:02:55 (EST)
Poster: op
Email:
To: John Cavad
Subject: Re: Fatalist
Message:
Hopefully, as ex-premies you are now saying, 'If it's to be, it's up to me.' Maybe if you'd said that 15 years ago (or whenever) you wouldn't have had to become ex-premies. The thread below, about 'goomraji's grace', is typical of what is now known as 'aerie-faerie' reasoning. It's ALWAYS been up to you. Maybe that's a big part of the difference between some of those who stuck it out and stayed with M and those who left (not ALL, I know there are as many variations as there are human beings). You are my mother and you are my father doesn't mean that I am a slave. Nor that I expect M to do everything for me, from providing dinner veggies to getting me a job. It means that I have a secure place to lean on when I need support, and someone to guide me through the first steps as I learn to walk. If I am still leaning on my father for support when I am 40 years old, that's a pretty dysfunctional family. What I wonder, very sincerely, is how some people picked up one message, and others seem to have gotten something so completely different. I don't have time to go into a long discourse here (thank God!, you say), but what I've just said does not in any way mean that my appreciation and respect of M is diminished.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 19:53:39 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: op
Subject: Re: Fatalist
Message:
OP, You're despicable. I could thorw a million quotes at you that more than prove that m cultivated that kind of dependency in us. But what's the point? You won't reply or, if you do, you won't consider the quotes honestly. I'd love to spend an evening watching the "Lord of the Universe" video with you. You should be ashamed of yourself. You DON'T rewrite the past! That's just something you don't do. It's so disrespectful I can't think of words strong enough to express myself. You are so far from honourable -- I don't mean 'pleasant' -- you obviously have no eye on your truth meter at all. What ABOUT your kids, OP? I hope that one day, when this guru thing's all over, they'll log on to the archives -- Brian's Akashik Records, such as it were -- and read their mum's stuff. They'll see all the people try to fairly engage you in honest discussion and your own blatant disrespect for truth.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 22:51:40 (EST)
Poster: Rick
Email: rtaraday@hotmail.com
To: John Cavad
Subject: Re: Fatalist
Message:
Premies, like all cult followers believe heavily in fate and destiny. They've been dealt their hand, and how life unfolds has little to do with them and everything to do with destiny. As a premie, you don't blame yourself for your actions or inactions because this is the hand you've been dealt. Your motto is, 'Whatever will be, will be.' Hopefully, as ex-premies you are now saying, 'If it's to be, it's up to me.' I remember countless hours of premies' satsang, bashing themselves and what happened to them, because they were in their mind. And similar countless hours of praise to maharaji, for anything good that happened. Premies were overwhelmed with guilt.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 11:32:58 (EST)
Poster: John Cavad
Email:
To: Everyone
Subject: Distorted Perception
Message:
I once befriended a powerful man who was a Christian Fundamentalist (CF). We were close for a couple of years. Before he became a CF he was a hell-raiser: heavy drinker, smoker, womanizer, etc. Every day this guy could never shut up about the grace of the lord. He always had to point out how it was the lord that took care of him. Once I gave him a first class upgrade on a flight across America during a business trip personally paid for by me. Did he say, thanks, John? Never. He said, "The lord takes care of me." What blew my mind is when he told me how the lord put him in the right place at the right time as he stopped past a motor home sales lot (I think the word is caravan for Britain). He emphatically said, the lord magically made him drive off a highway exit and stop at this dealership to buy a motor home for only $50,000, a great price he insisted. "The lord brought me to this dealership allowing me to buy this motor home for my family and me. Isn't His grace incredible?" At that moment I blew up and said, "You think the Lord gives a shit about your need for luxuries? What about all those starving children in the world who haven't had one decent meal in moths? Don't they ever get some of that attention from the lord, or does He only concentrate on the wealthy?!!" Actually my point is this: When we were brainwashed we perceived everything in our reach as the work or play of the lord. Signs of him were everywhere. Is that absolute distortion or what? Every incident, every road sign, everything is the lord speaking to us, he's communicating a message to us, some may be hidden meanings. Sounds a bit psychotic. Now, how is being a CF any different form a premie's viewpoint? It's not all that different. Only the names of the lord change from cult to cult.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 13:42:55 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: John Cavad
Subject: Re: Distorted Perception
Message:
Actually my point is this: When we were brainwashed we perceived everything in our reach as the work or play of the lord. Signs of him were everywhere. Is that absolute distortion or what? Every incident, every road sign, everything is the lord speaking to us, he's communicating a message to us, some may be hidden meanings. Sounds a bit psychotic. Now, how is being a CF any different form a premie's viewpoint? It's not all that different. Only the names of the lord change from cult to cult. John, I basically agree with you. That extremely conservative viewpoint that everything that happens is what is supposed to happen, all part of Maharaji's plan, and that our job is to accept that and have faith in the perfection, was all part of Maharaji's cult. It's also part of a lot of other cults and ideologies, like Est and the power of positive thinking. But the other part was that Maharaji said that the experience of knowledge was so beautiful and would make you blissful and happy. So, if you practiced knowledge and you weren't happy, it HAD to be due to your own confusion, inability to see the perfection at hand, or the failure to make enough effort to practice the knowledge or to trust Maharaji. Since I was pretty unhappy most of the time I was a premie, and since I couldn't blame Maharaji or his "divine plan," I had to blame myself. And that is psychologically very destructive, because you are blaming yourself for something you really have nothing to do with. I also, later, blamed PAM and the organization, but I couldn't, until well after I left, put the blame on Maharaji for anything, even though he was really the one responsbile. JW
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 14:24:03 (EST)
Poster: John K.
Email:
To: John Cavad
Subject: Re: Distorted Perception
Message:
I remember shortly after I rec'd K, I went to the ashram in 'the big city' (Portland Or, I was living in Eugene) and I was so shocked by the fact that everything that happened was attributed to 'grumraji'. The projector bulb went out, 'oh groomraji, oh groomraji!!'. The guy running the projector had just bought a bulb that day 'OH GROOMRAJI! The grace! I don't believe it! Thank you groomraji!!' I forget what but something else then went wrong, and the guy running the projector fell on the floor in hysterics laughing because of the 'Lila' that 'groomraji' was playing!! In Eugene back in the early 70's there were huge communes of Jesus freaks, and they acted in the exact same way. In a way I thought it was kind of neat, such a personal connection to the lord that everything that happens in each moment is directly traced back to the lord's doing. But it does get old after a while.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 14:38:46 (EST)
Poster: John
Email:
To: John K.
Subject: Re: Distorted Perception
Message:
There's two perspectives I carry on this: (1) Yes, it's true that all that is and happens is in some direct or indirect way the result of a greater power than our own free will (call it what you wish), and (2) what a farckin' sick mind!!!
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 14:54:39 (EST)
Poster: John K.
Email: hearken!ihearfarken!
To: John
Subject: Re: Distorted Perception
Message:
"farkin'" And what, pray tell, is this word 'farkin'?
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 16:55:28 (EST)
Poster: John Cavad
Email:
To: John K.
Subject: Re: Distorted Perception
Message:
'farkin'' And what, pray tell, is this word 'farkin'? If you ever saw the movie, "Johnnie Dangerously" (starring Michael Keaton) you would know. Of course being a premie, you hardly ever went to the movies unless it related to him (e.g., Star Wars, etc.). Farkin' is a nice way to curse without saying the word, "f*cking". You see you can say most words in that manner, "I hate those cork sucking, farkin' bastages!"
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jan 3, 1998 at 08:05:12 (EST)
Poster: Seymour
Email:
To: John Cavad
Subject: Re: Distorted Perception
Message:
Now, how is being a CF any different form a premie's viewpoint? It's not all that different. Only the names of the lord change from cult to cult. - Exactly, John. Well said on all counts. I too got fed up many times with the lack of gratitude. Religious fanatics seem to cease to be human.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jan 3, 1998 at 08:30:05 (EST)
Poster: Brian
Email:
To: Seymour
Subject: Re: Distorted Perception
Message:
Religious fanatics seem to cease to be human. The ability to abandon self-determination is the first requirement for getting involved in a cult. That a being should have its own sensory input, and yet turn to another to interpret that input, is dependency in the extreme. Watch the premies run around like rats introduced to a new maze when the reins are handed over. OP can always say, "Now, Maharaji... now there was a Guru...". Perhaps the scramble will be on to see who gets the best seats at the programs now. Mili, of course, will say he saw it coming. Afterall, MJ hinted strongly at Longbeach. It was pretty obvious, really. He'll be amazed that the ex's were so taken by surprise. Then he'll run out and by the new Guru posters for his bedroom walls. And the VIDEOS! Have to stock up on some new ones. ("What? You're still watching MJ videos!!??")
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 10:52:42 (EST)
Poster: John Cavad
Email:
To: Bobby
Subject: Message to Bobby
Message:
Hi, Bobby. Since I'm new (and haven't read old postings) I wanted to understand where you stand so I have better background when reading your post. Are you a GMJ drop out partly, completely, or what? I know you've seen him recently, but are you practicing all three disciplines? Do you think he's God, a saint or a fake? By the way, thanks for your web links. I've read some of it already. Fascinating, indeed. Thanks.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 12:37:56 (EST)
Poster: Bobby
Email:
To: John Cavad
Subject: Re: Message to Bobby
Message:
Hi, Bobby. Since I'm new (and haven't read old postings) I wanted to understand where you stand so I have better background when reading your post. Are you a GMJ drop out partly, completely, or what? I haven't been a part of the GMJ "scene" since the late ‘70's / early ‘80's. However, I have some close friends who I see from time to time who are in various degrees of involvement from regarding Maharaji as the avatar, to Maharaji as teacher, to Maharaji as an experience, to Maharaji as a fraud. I respect these friends. I regard their views are subsets of who they are. I know you've seen him recently, but are you practicing all three disciplines? Do you mean satsang, service and meditation? If not these, then I don't know what you mean. My understanding is that the "satsang, service and meditation" triple discipline is a long-gone phenomenon. I think the end of these was in the late ‘70's/early ‘80's. I practice meditation, and have done so fairly consistently since I received Knowledge in early September of 1971. I regard the meditation as an authentic discipline. These days I pretty much only practice the "word" and the "nectar". Most of the time, I have a really tangible beneficial experience. I do not regard meditation as a relaxation technique, though it can be used as such. I regard meditation as a powerful tool, a means of exploration with unlimited potential and I mean that literally. As has been discussed some in this forum, the mantra given as part of knowledge is a common, well-known technique in the East. In addition to this knowledge breath technique, I use Buddhist mantras and visualization techniques. I find these highly effective. There are several other practices I use from time to time. I say unhesitatingly that my life is a spiritual practice. As a matter of course I assess my life and its circumstances through spiritual frames of reference as well as other frames of reference such as that of our Western society what I understand to be a cultural consensus with many strange attributes. I find the Buddhist and Shamanic frames of reference to be particularly relatable for me. Do you think he's God, a saint or a fake? I don't think he's God any more than any of us are. I believe every one of us has the Christ energy within us and every one of us is capable of "realizing" Christ. I don't regard Maharaji as a saint by any means. I don't think he practices what he preaches. I think he has bought into Western materialism. I've had the opportunity to observe him at close range in the early ‘70's. I even did some one-on-one chats. I was unimpressed with his spirituality. That being said, I don't regard Maharaji as any great fraud, monster, asshole, or whatever other appellation people on this board spew out. I think he's caught in the drama like most of us, but don't see him as a player who has done major damage. Sure people have been hurt, but also many have been helped. I don't see him as responsible, at least not to the extent that others here seem to. People want a God they can interact and that's what they God. Maharaji found himself in the place where others looked to him for all the answers. He played out his part and continues to do so, unfortunately, in my view, with not a whole lot of spiritual insight. By the way, thanks for your web links. I've read some of it already. Fascinating, indeed. Thanks for visiting my site(s). I continue to develop them. It's a long process because these sites represent my personal expression which I have dedicated the better part of my life to. What I express on this forum is only an aspect of who I am, just as I surmise that we see on this forum only aspects of others. I apologize if I have offended anyone with my anger and outbursts, but you are seeing these sometimes less-than-pleasing aspects as an authentic expression of where I am at regarding my personal development. Even these "shadow" expressions are important. I sincerely mean no harm to anyone and don't think I have harmed anyone in any fundamental way.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 13:16:02 (EST)
Poster: John Cavad
Email:
To: Bobby
Subject: Re: Message to Bobby
Message:
Thank you Bobby, for such a detailed response. Best Wishes
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 18:33:37 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Bobby
Subject: Re: Message to Bobby
Message:
Dear Bobby - I very much liked your answer to John (above), but I wanted to take issue with one point that you brought up. You said "I don't regard Maharaji as any great fraud, monster, asshole, or whatever other appellation people on this board spew out. I think he's caught in the drama like most of us, but don't see him as a player who has done major damage. Sure people have been hurt, but also many have been helped. I don't see him as responsible, at least not to the extent that others here seem to." I don't disagree with your statement as much as I want to say that I think it's all right for people to express anger towards Maharaji. I'm sure you know the steps of the grieving process, and that anger is one of them. I think it's very important for people who were hurt by their involvement with Maharaji to be allowed to get angry at him. Very angry, if that's what it takes. It's when people get stuck in that anger and don't move beyond it that it becomes unhealthy. The people who post on here are in all different stages of separating themselves from Maharaji and his organization, and I think that some of them have a need to express anger, and even call him a "fraud, monster, asshole, or whatever", without feeling that it's inappropriate.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jan 3, 1998 at 02:48:22 (EST)
Poster: message in a
Email: bb
To: Bobby
Subject: bottle (Re: Message to Bobby)
Message:
I was responding to a post down further but thought I'd put it up here, when I said you never mentioned bhagvan dass' BORROWED ideas, I meant that usually no one from that part of the world has any new fresh angle, maharaji is always changeing in some ways but the rest just borrow and reissue the same old jazz. Richard albert on the tape I heard was steady and blah. He had no life in his voice. He was monotonous and monotone. I presume he had more lively moments but it's no wonder he never kept a big following if that is how he always spoke. I'm open to hearing any good quotes if you have them. His guru, another maharaji, supposidly had made a comment and gave a look to ramdass and he from that gave him credit for knowing all about him. At this point haveing a unemployed stranger know all about me is not desireable. But it was helpfully cathartic for him. In an earlier post you mentioned recieving knowledge in about 74 and not sticking around. Maybe you sometimes went to satsang after that? Actually the satsang service and meditation has still gone on but it is in the form of talks from maharaji, service is there certainly, and meditation as well. No mantra is given as part of the knowledge. The breath technique is not a common well known technique in the holy east. I have researched quite a bit and all the methods revolve around breath control, doing mantras with the breath, breathing exercises, gigantic explanations about different breath movements that you can do, going 'beyond' the breath, there is no holy corner of the globe that hasn't been derailed into distraction when it comes to god. I was hoping not to get like this but what do buddist mantras and visualization techniques do that you find "highly effective"? what is your target that they help you get to? What is the effect? What is a spiritual frame of reference? What is the buddist frame of reference? What is the Shamaic frame of reference? I know they had a shamanic conference this year and one of the big issues was that many people were trying to use powers to fuck up other people! I may still have the pamplet. You don't believe in god, you think we are capable of 'realizing' christ. Millions of people have been taught that idea yet name one person or one alive, that has realized whatever a 'christ' is. That damaging viewpoint holds a carrot out to people that they cannot attain, puts the god/friend in a bad light by making it some 'thing' to attain instead of a friend power to go along with, also that attitude is what has fucked maharaji and millions of others up by all these 'holy' eastern guys who just assume they have done 'it' and now know something. Look at you, for all your constant effort with these 'mantras, visualizations,other practices,frames of references, you have not 'realized' christ and no one you know has. As you stated on a previous post. This is not an attack! You were unimpressed with maharajis' spirituality, what spirituality IS impressive? You said 'people wanted a god they could interact with and thats what they got.' You want a christ you can 'realize' and you got a philosophy that says sure you can, but doesn't deliver. You said these are authentic expressions of where you are at, certainly I accept that, however, don't you want to get the most out of being here in this forum by allowing the dissection of god ideas here to also come to your ideas? This doesn't have to be looked at as an assault. I read this post then said 'no way, I'm not touching it.' not after the hoorah of the last few days. And shut down the computer. After a few hours no one had touched it and I did want to react to it because it landed on the island here and said so much and I reread it hopeing to be able to get on board, but the darn thing wont float in it's present form. Maybe you would try restateing it. It could be fun! Hopefully you will view it as an adventure in god stuff.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jan 3, 1998 at 10:35:06 (EST)
Poster: Bobby
Email:
To: Bill
Subject: false assumptions (Re: Message to Bobby)
Message:
I meant that usually no one from that part of the world has any new fresh angle, maharaji is always changeing in some ways but the rest just borrow and reissue the same old jazz. Bill, your statement here is simply untrue. Prominent Buddhists continually look for the truth of the teachings. For instance, I have read in several places where the Dalai Lama specifically states that the tenets of Buddhism, even the most central issues, should always be examined in accord with modern science. You've got so many of your facts wrong, including things that I clearly said recently, that it is obvious you don't consider enough what I say in the first place. For instance, I recently said that I received knowledge in '71. You said: In an earlier post you mentioned recieving knowledge in about 74 and not sticking around. Maybe you sometimes went to satsang after that? Huh? I didn't "go away". I lived in the ashram for a year or two and in premie houses for several other years. I went to Satang every night for years. Really Bill, but don't seem to listen carefully when I reply. If you are serious about understanding some of the perspectives I bring up, why don't you go read about them like I did. I could give you the references. You make a lot of unfounded and false assumptions. You are good at spontaneous writing, but it is unedited and sometimes unconsidered. You mix a lot of false references in with the spontaneous truth. You want the Buddhist or Shamanic frame of reference? Study it! It takes effort to understand. I have spent many years and take it seriously. I have mentioned aspects of Buddhism here and there, like interconnectivity. If you are interested, check it out. And what you say about Shamanism is way off the mark of what I practice. Where did you see that pamphlet? A Christian fundamentalist meeting? They of course would identify anything not of their own as being satanic.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jan 3, 1998 at 11:02:28 (EST)
Poster: Bobby
Email:
To: message in a
Subject: Re: bottle (Re: Message to Bobby)
Message:
No mantra is given as part of the knowledge. It is a mantra, or at least it was as given to me in my 1971 knowledge session. A sacred sound to be articulated with the breath. The breath technique is not a common well known technique in the holy east. Sure it is. The breath is the swan. Hamsa (sa-ham). Every beat of the wing is an articulation of breath. Vishnu, the preserver is the swan. I've seen specific references to the breath mantra I was given in my knowledge session in many sources -- Hindu, Buddhist, and Sufi.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jan 3, 1998 at 11:43:06 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Bobby
Subject: Re: bottle (Re: Message to Bobby)
Message:
No mantra is given as part of the knowledge. It is a mantra, or at least it was as given to me in my 1971 knowledge session. A sacred sound to be articulated with the breath. The breath technique is not a common well known technique in the holy east. Sure it is. The breath is the swan. Hamsa (sa-ham). Every beat of the wing is an articulation of breath. Vishnu, the preserver is the swan. I've seen specific references to the breath mantra I was given in my knowledge session in many sources -- Hindu, Buddhist, and Sufi. 'Aham Sah' also means 'I am He' in Sanskrit, referring to the identity between the Atman (individual consciousness) and the Brahman (cosmic consciousness).
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jan 3, 1998 at 14:22:34 (EST)
Poster: be
Email: bb
To: Mili
Subject: zorp (Re: Message to Bobby)
Message:
Hi mili, Aham sah, is a made by nobody special pair of sounds. If you want to say it means 'I am he', and give that any importance at all, what is the difference with the sikhs that chant sa ta na ma? Or any of other made up sounds to go along with your own life? Why not make up one of your own if a made up sound has any valid use in life as a crowbar to pry an experience out of god? Mili, I know this is not your way, you just repeated some picked up info. But look at what it says; 'referring to the identity between the bezorp(individual conciousness) and the wingding (cosmic consiousness).' What identity? what identity between?
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 03:13:00 (EST)
Poster: Mr Ex
Email:
To: Everyone
Subject: Maharaji likely to resign!
Message:
Happy new year everybody ! I’ve had some interesting news yesterday. Maharaji said during the last conference in LA that he intends to resign. He said various things regarding this, and his reasons. Basically as I understood from the guy who told me about it, premies are all idiots, and he is tired of this business. How funny. It would be interesting to have the transcript of his address, don’t you think ? I can also guess lots of other reasons he doesn’t want to talk about because of his BIG ego, my interpretation is another story.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 04:20:12 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Mr Ex
Subject: Re: Maharaji likely to resign!
Message:
Happy new year everybody ! I’ve had some interesting news yesterday. Maharaji said during the last conference in LA that he intends to resign. He said various things regarding this, and his reasons. Basically as I understood from the guy who told me about it, premies are all idiots, and he is tired of this business. How funny. It would be interesting to have the transcript of his address, don’t you think ? I can also guess lots of other reasons he doesn’t want to talk about because of his BIG ego, my interpretation is another story. Hi everybody! I just heard form reliable sources that the sun won't rise this morning. Stock up on your candles and flashlights!
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 04:32:15 (EST)
Poster: Mr Ex
Email:
To: Mili
Subject: Re: Maharaji likely to resign!
Message:
My dear Mili, are you going to admit that you are an idiot when you'll see the transcript? If you'd go and watch videos from time to time, you'd know all this already! I think you're such an idiot because you are confused by not practicing m's knowledge m's knowledge consists of practicing meditation, watching videos, doing some service, and go see your master as often as possible, and PROSTRATING at his feet AS SOOBN AS POSSIBLE. As you don't do much of this, I strongly believe that you're just a fanatic like so many.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 06:35:05 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Mr Ex
Subject: Re: Maharaji likely to resign!
Message:
My dear Mili, are you going to admit that you are an idiot when you'll see the transcript? If you'd go and watch videos from time to time, you'd know all this already! I think you're such an idiot because you are confused by not practicing m's knowledge m's knowledge consists of practicing meditation, watching videos, doing some service, and go see your master as often as possible, and PROSTRATING at his feet AS SOOBN AS POSSIBLE. As you don't do much of this, I strongly believe that you're just a fanatic like so many. It really pisses you off when I say something contrary to your ravings, doesn't it?
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 11:13:58 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Mr Ex
Subject: Re: Maharaji likely to resign!
Message:
My dear Mili, are you going to admit that you are an idiot when you'll see the transcript? If you'd go and watch videos from time to time, you'd know all this already! I think you're such an idiot because you are confused by not practicing m's knowledge m's knowledge consists of practicing meditation, watching videos, doing some service, and go see your master as often as possible, and PROSTRATING at his feet AS SOOBN AS POSSIBLE. As you don't do much of this, I strongly believe that you're just a fanatic like so many. Mr Ex, even if the exact words are there in the transcript - somehow, I don't think you interpreted it right. You are just giving us your perverted translation here. You must really think we are idiots! Somehow, I never really liked initiators. And ex-initiators are definitely slime.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 11:53:14 (EST)
Poster: John Cavad
Email:
To: Mili
Subject: Re: Maharaji likely to resign!
Message:
Dear Mr. Ex, Are you an ex-initiator? Do I know you???
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 13:24:43 (EST)
Poster: Mr Ex
Email:
To: John Cavad
Subject: Re: Maharaji likely to resign!
Message:
Ex-instructor .... If you know me ? I don't know .... not likely. Where do you live? You can read my 'confessions' on the ex-premie.org web-site and my 'journey' in DLM/Ev under JM's journey Regarding maharaji's intention to retire, I hope somebody will post the transcript of his discourse in Long Beach. I'll have more details in a few days. He is looking for a 'successor' !!!!!!!!!! Who could do that? I'm still under the shock, I almost don't believe it ..... is there some sanity left in Mr Rawat's mind? Is he going to sell his throne? For how much? Lot of fun very likely over this issue ..... Lots of big problems for many fanatics very likely too, that's the sad part.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 13:27:31 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email: joger02@aol.com
To: Mr Ex
Subject: Re: Maharaji likely to resign!
Message:
Happy new year everybody ! I’ve had some interesting news yesterday. Maharaji said during the last conference in LA that he intends to resign. He said various things regarding this, and his reasons. Basically as I understood from the guy who told me about it, premies are all idiots, and he is tired of this business. How funny. It would be interesting to have the transcript of his address, don’t you think ? I can also guess lots of other reasons he doesn’t want to talk about because of his BIG ego, my interpretation is another story. This is fascinating. Do you have any more details? What was this "conference in LA?" And resign from what? From being the lord, or just from whatever he does in Elan Vital? Did you hear it from someone who was there? If so, did that person have the same reaction you did, that he really meant to resign? I think I have heard on the forum before the Mahraji has threatened to "resign" prevsiouly, unless a certain amount of money is raised, or some other things happen. Do you know has he said things like this before? Thanks for your report. JW
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 13:33:30 (EST)
Poster: Mr Ex
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: Maharaji likely to resign!
Message:
I'll get details from 'the top' in a few days .... He already spoke about it to some of his closest collaborators and friends a few months ago during a private conference. I think he doesn't have many options left if you consider the whole context. What's going to happen, I don't know if he himself knows! Money is very likely one of the main reasons. His health might be another. The craziness of the people around him Internet and the end of information control ......
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 13:42:12 (EST)
Poster: John Cavad
Email:
To: Mr Ex
Subject: Re: Maharaji likely to resign!
Message:
OK, Mr. Ex. I re-read your material (had read it a month ago). Very well written and expressed and extremely insightful. If you read my (new) Jouney post, you'll know my backgound and where I've been. I'm sure we have crossed paths, though we weren't friends. I was more heavily involved in DLM service than I admit (I try to forget all my volunteer work). Perhaps I drove you around town (NYC or Miami)?
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 13:43:12 (EST)
Poster: Sir David
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: JW
Subject: Re: Maharaji likely to resign!
Message:
This resignation could just be a political tactic similar to the one employed by our John Major when he was in difficulties. It can work especially if everybody wants you back after you've resigned. However, Maharaji might seriously be wanting to resign from his satguruship. For a successor I would choose one of Maharaji's old initiators, Miss Julian West. Beauty and glamour, within and without, I'd definitely follow her to the ends of the earth! Does anyone know what ever happened to Miss Julian West, (English Initiator)? Is she a Mrs now? Is she still in the fold? ______________
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 15:25:28 (EST)
Poster: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net
To: Mr. Ex
Subject: Re: Maharaji likely to resign!
Message:
Happy new year everybody ! I’ve had some interesting news yesterday. Maharaji said during the last conference in LA that he intends to resign. He said various things regarding this, and his reasons. Basically as I understood from the guy who told me about it, premies are all idiots, and he is tired of this business. How funny. It would be interesting to have the transcript of his address, don’t you think ? I can also guess lots of other reasons he doesn’t want to talk about because of his BIG ego, my interpretation is another story. This is fascinating. Do you have any more details? What was this 'conference in LA?' And resign from what? From being the lord, or just from whatever he does in Elan Vital? Did you hear it from someone who was there? If so, did that person have the same reaction you did, that he really meant to resign? I think I have heard on the forum before the Mahraji has threatened to 'resign' prevsiouly, unless a certain amount of money is raised, or some other things happen. Do you know has he said things like this before? Thanks for your report. JW This is pretty interesting; is he really going to resign, or is this like the Oral Roberts "A nine-hundred foot Jesus is gonna call me home if we don't raise ten million dollars" kinda thing? If he resigns, what will he do for a living? Will he do infomercials on late night T.V.? Has he ever done an honest day's work in his life? This should be fun.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 15:26:18 (EST)
Poster: Mr Ex
Email:
To: Sir David
Subject: Re: Maharaji likely to resign!
Message:
She is involved again in EV I think that going beyond this would be a violation of her private life. I saw her at every program I went since 2 or 3 years.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 15:48:05 (EST)
Poster: Sir David
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: Mickey the Pharisee
Subject: Re: Maharaji likely to resign!
Message:
I think Maharaji should write a book, a do it yourself guide to meditation. Just a guide but revealing the techniques of meditation in an easy to read format. With the right publicity this book could be a best seller and make him a lot of money and also bring the simple techniques of meditation to the masses. If anyone required further details or help in practising the techniques then instructors could be around to give advice and guidance. What do you think?
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 16:04:06 (EST)
Poster: Who's next?
Email:
To: Mr Ex
Subject: Re: Maharaji likely to resign!
Message:
I'll get details from 'the top' in a few days .... He already spoke about it to some of his closest collaborators and friends a few months ago during a private conference. I think he doesn't have many options left if you consider the whole context. What's going to happen, I don't know if he himself knows! Money is very likely one of the main reasons. His health might be another. The craziness of the people around him Internet and the end of information control ...... It occurs to me that MJ may possibly pass on the job to Dayalata. She seems well into the whole thing, besides which it seems to be somewhat traditional for Mastership to be kept within the family (at least that is the impression I have had from reading the Guru lineage histories). Of course MJ may break the mould. His father had obviously kept it in the family for whatever reason. Of course what would be more appropriate and fun than a pop-star perfect mistress. Incidentally, when President Kennedy was in office he would entertain prostitutes in hotel rooms, according to his recently interviewed police guards who felt they had a moral responsibility (if not a legal one) to set the record straight . They pointed out that they were law enforcement officers at the time, who were protecting him from the hotel corridors, in effect, whilst he committed a crime! A crazy situation. They also pointed out that if these and other facts been made public at the time (ie. his infidelities) he would have been immediately removed from office, losing all public credibility (someone who presumably lies to their wife may well be equally inclined to lie to the nation). If he had been removed from the responsibilities of office then he would possibly still have been alive today. The fact that he remained president resulted in a fatal retribution from the Mafia whom he had apparently some way upset. (this was the implication of the TV program). It would also appear that his presidency had been to a large extent the lifelong ambition of his father who had colluded with the Mafia in a bid to achieve his aim by fair means or foul. Fact is stranger than fiction. Without wanting to make too much of an analogy here it seems pertinent to observe the wise principle of retiring before reaping the less desirable rewards of one's office. Could MJ be inspired to retire from the public limelight before unwanted and unflattering attentions befall him? If he does so, his successor may well still be a family member. To continue an admittedly cynical viewpoint but one that appears to be based in fact if you read the histories of the Radhasoami Gurus. Guru successorship at worst, has been in some cases blatantly more about the preservation of family power (and the attendant politics) than about the passing on of a spiritual flame. Perhaps the next Perfect Master will be a 'Perfect Mistress' (no pun intended) Possibly some hitherto unknown humble premie sister? Maharaji says "you are not receiving me, you are receiving my Knowledge" to emphasise that his personal life or behaviour does not reflect on the validity of his students experience. At the same time he clearly encourages his students to spend as much time as possible listening to him talk about knowledge. During these addresses he frequently talks about his family, his private pursuits etc. Is it surprising therefore that students extend their interest in their Master to his life off the podium, whether deemed private or otherwise. After all, he above all is deemed to be someone who is "living" the Knowledge. If it is true, as it has been said here,that premies around Maharaji generally accept that Maharaji has one or more mistresses, then is it not clear that even He has entered into some good old human deceit within his household. How then is this supposed to tally with his trustworthiness as someone to whom you listen with an open heart and no doubt? It must be hard (if this is true) for him to plan the somewhat hazardous retreat from being one of impeccable reputation to one of more mundane humanity. One who quietly fades into the background (or Brazil) whilst a successor with less of a "past" keeps up the good work.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 16:33:28 (EST)
Poster: he is actually
Email: bb
To: John Cavad
Subject: charanand (Re: Maharaji likely to resign!)
Message:
we are trying to keep him secret if you don't mind
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 23:19:59 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: Sir David
Subject: Re: Maharaji likely to resign!
Message:
I think Maharaji should write a book, a do it yourself guide to meditation. Just a guide but revealing the techniques of meditation in an easy to read format. With the right publicity this book could be a best seller and make him a lot of money and also bring the simple techniques of meditation to the masses. If anyone required further details or help in practising the techniques then instructors could be around to give advice and guidance. What do you think? BOOORING! I don't think it would sell too well. And then he's killled the goose that lays the golden egg. Frankly, I agree M might threaten to resign to get people to give him what he wants, but I think the likelihood of him actually doing it is somewhere between zero and zero. JW
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jan 3, 1998 at 00:45:17 (EST)
Poster: when i'm
Email: bb
To: JW
Subject: 64 (Re: Maharaji likely to resign!)
Message:
my wife says the same thing that he will never resign he may say so but that it would just be like other performers that retire then come out of retirement.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jan 3, 1998 at 06:58:33 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Mr Ex
Subject: Re: Maharaji likely to resign!
Message:
Happy new year everybody ! I’ve had some interesting news yesterday. Maharaji said during the last conference in LA that he intends to resign. He said various things regarding this, and his reasons. Basically as I understood from the guy who told me about it, premies are all idiots, and he is tired of this business. How funny. It would be interesting to have the transcript of his address, don’t you think ? I can also guess lots of other reasons he doesn’t want to talk about because of his BIG ego, my interpretation is another story. 'Mr.Ex', you are deliberately distorting and misinterpreting Maharaji's words. This is what he said: *** "I am alive, you are alive, let's set the standard. You know, one of the responsibilities that I feel in my life, being the Master — and maybe this didn't happen so much in the past, but I want to make this transformation, is that I not only want to make it beautiful for this generation, whilst I'm alive, but when the next Master comes, I want to make it nice for him or her. So that they don't have to put up with the kind of garbage I did. That they can go on and enjoy. Because it should be enjoyable. Spreading this Knowledge should be enjoyable, and we have to set that standard. We — you and I — we have to set that standard." *** Kind of a long shot to go from this to : "he's going to retire and all the premies are idiots", don't you think? Mr.Ex, go play your sick little mystery-mongering mind games somewhere else.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jan 3, 1998 at 07:41:09 (EST)
Poster: Brian
Email:
To: Mili
Subject: Re: Maharaji likely to resign!
Message:
Not if you can understand actual words, Mili. He's describing a "standard". His vision of what is required from a perfect master. He goes on in length to pencil it in for those hear beyond his blissful presence on the stage he's setting. You choose to think that he's talking about himself. But he's never been slow to praise himself in any way. Yet he specifically doesn't mention his own divine countenence here. He is actually leaving a very large blank. He will fill that in when it suits him, and not wait for you to understand that it's "coming". "When the next Master comes..." I had been holding back on jumping on the bandwagon here, but thankyou for the needed quotes.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jan 6, 1998 at 14:24:46 (EST)
Poster: And On Anand Ji
Email:
To: Mr Ex
Subject: Abdicate (was "Re: Maharaji likely to resign!") (Re: Maharaji likely to resign!)
Message:
I'll get details from 'the top' in a few days .... He already spoke about it to some of his closest collaborators and friends a few months ago during a private conference. I think he doesn't have many options left if you consider the whole context. What's going to happen, I don't know if he himself knows! Money is very likely one of the main reasons. His health might be another. The craziness of the people around him Internet and the end of information control ...... Wait a minute -- who's he going to hand his resignation to -- Shri Maharaji? One doesn't resign from being the one to continue. The closest term I can think of is: abdicate. To abdicate.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index