Ex-Premie.Org

Forum II Archive # 3

From: Dec 31, 1997

To: Jan 20, 1998

Page: 5 Of: 5


John Cavad -:- He was born a king -:- Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 01:31:33 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: He was born a king -:- Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 02:45:43 (EST)
___lurk -:- Re: He was born a king -:- Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 06:37:35 (EST)
___Seymour -:- Re: He was born a king -:- Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 10:59:15 (EST)
___John Cavad -:- Re: He was born a king -:- Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 11:46:15 (EST)
___Bobby -:- Re: He was born a king -:- Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 13:14:12 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: He was born a king -:- Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 13:18:47 (EST)
___rethink -:- that one -:- Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 17:13:02 (EST)
___John Cavad -:- Re: that one -:- Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 17:31:01 (EST)
___op -:- Re: that one -:- Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 18:34:23 (EST)
___John, again -:- Re: that one -:- Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 18:37:47 (EST)
___O -:- P -:- Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 19:43:51 (EST)

Jphn Cavad -:- Message for Mili -:- Thurs, Jan 1, 1998 at 22:59:57 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: Message for Mili -:- Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 04:06:34 (EST)
___John Cavad -:- Re: Message for Mili -:- Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 10:42:28 (EST)
___John Cavad -:- Re: Message for Mili -:- Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 11:50:44 (EST)
___John K. -:- Re: Message for Mili -:- Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 15:47:00 (EST)

Isaiah's brother -:- More good tidings -:- Thurs, Jan 1, 1998 at 22:20:17 (EST)
___John Cavad -:- Re: More good tidings -:- Thurs, Jan 1, 1998 at 22:53:34 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: More good tidings -:- Thurs, Jan 1, 1998 at 23:39:06 (EST)
___bible forum -:- Re: More good tidings -:- Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 00:02:09 (EST)
___Isaiah's brother -:- Re: More good tidings -:- Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 00:09:50 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: More good tidings -:- Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 00:13:53 (EST)
___bible forum -:- Re: More good tidings -:- Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 00:23:41 (EST)
___Brian -:- Re: More good tidings -:- Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 00:23:52 (EST)
___John Cavad -:- Re: Apology -:- Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 01:37:02 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: More good tidings -:- Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 06:32:00 (EST)
___Bobby -:- Re: More good tidings -:- Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 09:41:52 (EST)
___Isaiah's brother -:- Re: More good tidings -:- Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 10:46:37 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: More good tidings -:- Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 11:08:45 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: More good tidings -:- Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 12:30:04 (EST)
___Bobby -:- Re: More good tidings -:- Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 13:04:27 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: More good tidings -:- Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 13:09:16 (EST)
___Sir David -:- Re: More good tidings -:- Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 14:31:02 (EST)
___Mickey the Pharisee -:- Re: More good tidings -:- Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 15:20:06 (EST)
___Bobby -:- Re: More good tidings -:- Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 15:28:19 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: More good tidings -:- Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 18:08:17 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: More good tidings -:- Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 18:24:12 (EST)

Seymour -:- Lost Threads- Nigel & JW -:- Thurs, Jan 1, 1998 at 12:25:45 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: Lost Threads- Nigel & JW -:- Thurs, Jan 1, 1998 at 16:49:34 (EST)
___Nigel -:- Re: Lost Threads- Nigel & JW -:- Thurs, Jan 1, 1998 at 19:39:16 (EST)

John Cavad -:- Request to Brian: Remove it! -:- Thurs, Jan 1, 1998 at 12:19:22 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: Request to Brian: Remove it! -:- Thurs, Jan 1, 1998 at 13:10:36 (EST)
___Brian -:- Re: Request to Brian: Remove it! -:- Thurs, Jan 1, 1998 at 16:07:53 (EST)
___Brian -:- Re: Request to Brian: Remove it! -:- Thurs, Jan 1, 1998 at 16:10:11 (EST)
___John Cavad -:- Re: Request to Brian: Remove it! -:- Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 12:33:26 (EST)

Dr. J. Katshitanand -:- I get blissed out -:- Thurs, Jan 1, 1998 at 11:24:42 (EST)
___Bobby -:- Re: I get blissed out -:- Thurs, Jan 1, 1998 at 11:47:30 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: I get blissed out -:- Thurs, Jan 1, 1998 at 11:58:09 (EST)
___Bobby -:- Re: I get blissed out -:- Thurs, Jan 1, 1998 at 12:46:50 (EST)
___Dr J. Katshitanand -:- Re: I get blissed out -:- Thurs, Jan 1, 1998 at 15:19:11 (EST)
___Dr JK -:- Re: I get blissed out -:- Thurs, Jan 1, 1998 at 15:23:53 (EST)
___Brian -:- Re: I get blissed out -:- Thurs, Jan 1, 1998 at 15:58:17 (EST)
___Brian -:- Re: I get blissed out -:- Thurs, Jan 1, 1998 at 16:31:54 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: I get blissed out -:- Thurs, Jan 1, 1998 at 16:32:52 (EST)
___Bobby -:- Reasons -:- Thurs, Jan 1, 1998 at 17:31:57 (EST)
___Bobby -:- Re: I get blissed out -:- Thurs, Jan 1, 1998 at 17:42:38 (EST)
___Bobby -:- Response -:- Thurs, Jan 1, 1998 at 18:39:46 (EST)
___An observer -:- Re: Reasons -:- Thurs, Jan 1, 1998 at 19:11:17 (EST)
___The Good Doc -:- Re: Reasons -:- Thurs, Jan 1, 1998 at 19:33:19 (EST)
___Bobby -:- Re: Reasons -:- Thurs, Jan 1, 1998 at 20:25:09 (EST)
___Brian -:- Re: Reasons -:- Thurs, Jan 1, 1998 at 22:04:46 (EST)
___Bobby -:- Re: Reasons -:- Thurs, Jan 1, 1998 at 22:54:45 (EST)
___Brian -:- Re: Reasons -:- Thurs, Jan 1, 1998 at 23:19:40 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: Reasons -:- Thurs, Jan 1, 1998 at 23:50:23 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: Reasons -:- Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 00:24:04 (EST)
___Ol' -:- Yeller -:- Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 11:48:41 (EST)
___Doctor -:- Doc a fraud -:- Sat, Jan 3, 1998 at 20:56:57 (EST)
___Brother of 2-Ex's -:- Re: I get blissed out -:- Mon, Jan 5, 1998 at 17:27:23 (EST)

nobody -:- if -:- Wed, Dec 31, 1997 at 20:06:22 (EST)
___Rick -:- Re: if -:- Wed, Dec 31, 1997 at 21:23:05 (EST)
___thou art that -:- Re: if....then -:- Wed, Dec 31, 1997 at 21:26:26 (EST)
___nobody -:- Re: if -:- Wed, Dec 31, 1997 at 21:33:10 (EST)
___Rick -:- Re: if -:- Wed, Dec 31, 1997 at 23:44:29 (EST)
___Stoned on nectar -:- Re: if -:- Thurs, Jan 1, 1998 at 00:48:03 (EST)
___Rick -:- Re: if -:- Thurs, Jan 1, 1998 at 00:55:12 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: if -:- Thurs, Jan 1, 1998 at 04:22:31 (EST)

Mili -:- A Quote for Jim -:- Wed, Dec 31, 1997 at 16:54:15 (EST)
___I think he is -:- gone already -:- Wed, Dec 31, 1997 at 17:04:11 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: gone already -:- Wed, Dec 31, 1997 at 17:08:46 (EST)
___Get them to mudwrestle -:- with you as the prize -:- Wed, Dec 31, 1997 at 17:22:20 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: with you as the prize -:- Wed, Dec 31, 1997 at 17:39:04 (EST)
___Brian -:- Re: A Quote for Jim -:- Wed, Dec 31, 1997 at 19:50:08 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: A Quote for Jim -:- Wed, Dec 31, 1997 at 19:54:53 (EST)
___Brian -:- Re: A Quote for Jim -:- Wed, Dec 31, 1997 at 20:10:49 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: A Quote for Jim -:- Wed, Dec 31, 1997 at 20:14:04 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: A Quote for Jim -:- Wed, Dec 31, 1997 at 20:42:08 (EST)
___Sri Ramakrishna -:- gone, gone, gone beyond.. bodhi svaha -:- Wed, Dec 31, 1997 at 21:22:22 (EST)
___Drunken -:- Dawn -:- Thurs, Jan 1, 1998 at 02:36:52 (EST)
___giving -:- it out -:- Thurs, Jan 1, 1998 at 03:53:23 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: Dawn -:- Thurs, Jan 1, 1998 at 04:26:58 (EST)
___Nigel -:- Re: A Quote for Jim -:- Thurs, Jan 1, 1998 at 11:30:00 (EST)
___promise keepers -:- Re: it out -:- Thurs, Jan 1, 1998 at 11:30:51 (EST)
___Bobby -:- a call for expressions without judgment -:- Thurs, Jan 1, 1998 at 12:20:16 (EST)
___sex in the -:- gap -:- Thurs, Jan 1, 1998 at 13:36:18 (EST)
___fuller -:- expressions -:- Thurs, Jan 1, 1998 at 13:53:20 (EST)
___Santa -:- And now... a word from our sponsors -:- Thurs, Jan 1, 1998 at 14:17:27 (EST)
___Bobby -:- Re: expressions -:- Thurs, Jan 1, 1998 at 15:27:16 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: it out -:- Thurs, Jan 1, 1998 at 16:16:06 (EST)

John Cavad -:- Mili leaves: Your Vote Counts? -:- Wed, Dec 31, 1997 at 16:12:40 (EST)
___rock the vote -:- Re: Mili leaves: Your Vote Counts? -:- Wed, Dec 31, 1997 at 16:54:47 (EST)
___Mickey the Pharisee -:- Re: Mili leaves: Your Vote Counts? -:- Wed, Dec 31, 1997 at 19:49:59 (EST)
___Bobby -:- Everyone leaves -:- Wed, Dec 31, 1997 at 21:25:17 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: Mili leaves: Your Vote Counts? -:- Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 00:11:53 (EST)
___John K. -:- Re: Mili leaves: Your Vote Counts? -:- Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 14:50:06 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: Mili leaves: Your Vote Counts? -:- Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 17:55:53 (EST)

John Cavad -:- Love, Peace and Happiness -:- Wed, Dec 31, 1997 at 14:58:24 (EST)
___Mickey the Pharisee -:- Re: Love, Peace and Happiness -:- Wed, Dec 31, 1997 at 15:39:56 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: Love, Peace and Happiness -:- Wed, Dec 31, 1997 at 16:44:15 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: Love, Peace and Happiness -:- Wed, Dec 31, 1997 at 16:47:34 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: Love, Peace and Happiness -:- Wed, Dec 31, 1997 at 16:56:25 (EST)
___Brian -:- Re: Love, Peace and Happiness -:- Wed, Dec 31, 1997 at 19:45:28 (EST)
___And On Anand Ji -:- Re: Love, Peace and Happiness -- It is the will of Landru (NO TEXT) -:- Thurs, Jan 8, 1998 at 23:16:59 (EST)

John Cavad -:- Love, Pease and Happiness -:- Wed, Dec 31, 1997 at 14:57:43 (EST)
___Peas? -:- and q's -:- Wed, Dec 31, 1997 at 17:24:56 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: Love, Pease and Happiness -:- Thurs, Jan 1, 1998 at 02:43:19 (EST)
___Katie -:- P.S. Peas -:- Thurs, Jan 1, 1998 at 02:46:34 (EST)
___Rick -:- Re: P.S. Peas -:- Thurs, Jan 1, 1998 at 11:15:45 (EST)
___John Cavad -:- Re: Love, Pease and Happiness -:- Thurs, Jan 1, 1998 at 12:14:11 (EST)
___Seymour Peas -:- Re: Love, Pease and Happiness -:- Thurs, Jan 1, 1998 at 12:36:09 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: P.S. Peas -:- Thurs, Jan 1, 1998 at 23:59:11 (EST)
___And On Anand Ji -:- TEST - IGNORE - (was Re: P.S. Peas) -:- Wed, Jan 7, 1998 at 11:43:02 (EST)

John Cavad -:- No More Darshan? -:- Wed, Dec 31, 1997 at 14:42:36 (EST)
___Jim -:- Re: No More Darshan? -:- Wed, Dec 31, 1997 at 15:21:44 (EST)
___John Cavad -:- Re: No More Darshan? -:- Wed, Dec 31, 1997 at 16:00:31 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: No More Darshan? -:- Wed, Dec 31, 1997 at 16:34:45 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: No More Darshan? -:- Wed, Dec 31, 1997 at 18:47:00 (EST)

Gregg -:- Greetings -:- Wed, Dec 31, 1997 at 14:39:19 (EST)
___John Cavad -:- Re: Greetings -:- Wed, Dec 31, 1997 at 14:47:58 (EST)
___Brian -:- Re: Greetings -:- Wed, Dec 31, 1997 at 14:56:15 (EST)
___greetings -:- and happy new year -:- Wed, Dec 31, 1997 at 17:07:29 (EST)
___test -:- Re:test ignore -:- Thurs, Jan 8, 1998 at 09:12:58 (EST)
___test -:- Re: Re:test ignore -:- Thurs, Jan 8, 1998 at 09:16:43 (EST)
___And On Anand Ji -:- Re:test ignore -:- Thurs, Jan 8, 1998 at 16:37:22 (EST)



Date: Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 01:31:33 (EST)
Poster: John Cavad
Email:
To: Everyone
Subject: He was born a king
Message:
He can't help it. He was born into a royal type of family of satgurus. He's not like a "Do" from Heaven's Gate or a Jim Jones. These people were self-appointed masters of cults. GMJ was born a cult leader. He really had little choice. Now he has to live his plight, accept his destiny: to act like a cult leader (or perfect master for you premies). Imagine if you were born into a family like that? So many to please, so many to disapoint. You might resort to suicide with the crushing realization that you're just a man.
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Date: Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 02:45:43 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: John Cavad
Subject: Re: He was born a king
Message:
He can't help it. He was born into a royal type of family of satgurus. He's not like a 'Do' from Heaven's Gate or a Jim Jones. These people were self-appointed masters of cults. GMJ was born a cult leader. He really had little choice. Now he has to live his plight, accept his destiny: to act like a cult leader (or perfect master for you premies). Imagine if you were born into a family like that? So many to please, so many to disapoint. You might resort to suicide with the crushing realization that you're just a man. I agree that GMJ was brought up to be a satguru, and that he had little choice in the matter. I do feel sorry for the little boy who was raised like that, and I certainly would hate to be GMJ. However, I think there comes a time when everyone has to take responsibility for their own lives and quit blaming their upbringing. Even GMJ. He's grown up enough now to renounce the "satguru" or "lord of the universe" title if he wants to.
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Date: Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 06:37:35 (EST)
Poster: lurk
Email: lurk@lurkland
To: Katie
Subject: Re: He was born a king
Message:
Maharaji isn't the only cult leader brought up from childhood to believe he's divine.
Click here to read Krishnamurti's speech when he told his band of toe-kissers that enough was enough. Perhap[s some kind soul could forward it to Maharaji.
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Date: Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 10:59:15 (EST)
Poster: Seymour
Email:
To: Katie
Subject: Re: He was born a king
Message:
You pipped me to the post here John. I had a great literary masterpiece on the plight of Maharaji being unable to resist the destiny chosen for him by his family and culture but you have said it all succinctly. It must be difficult for him at times when he may doubt the whole business, but what can he do. Better to suppress any such thoughts and carry on or he could get really depressed with the realisation that he has misled so many people. Didn't all us ex-premies try to tell friends, family et al that they were wasting their lives unless they received knowledge and joined Maharaji's gang? We probably did it with the sincere feeling that we were saving their souls and I suspect Maharaji mostly believes that he is doing a great service to humanity. Think how much harder it would be for him to say it was all a big mistake. I agree with what you say about taking responsibility, Katie. It's just that it must be incredibly difficult for G.M and if he ever did it I think I would once again suspect him of being more than human - or at least a pretty strong human.
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Date: Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 11:46:15 (EST)
Poster: John Cavad
Email:
To: Seymour
Subject: Re: He was born a king
Message:
I don't believe GMJ is the monster some of us ex-premies portray him to be. He is simply acting out his preceived destiny as best as he can. That's why he keeps changing and modifying his administration: to keep it his reality alive. Sure, just like us, he has his own human addictions : money, power, money, money. Maybe he is often manipulative, but I believe this is a result of primative survival insticts. He must survive and live as the person he believes he is - at almost any cost.
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Date: Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 13:14:12 (EST)
Poster: Bobby
Email:
To: John Cavad
Subject: Re: He was born a king
Message:
I pretty much agree with your assessment here John. Thanks.
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Date: Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 13:18:47 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: John Cavad
Subject: Re: He was born a king
Message:
I don't believe GMJ is the monster some of us ex-premies portray him to be. He is simply acting out his preceived destiny as best as he can. That's why he keeps changing and modifying his administration: to keep it his reality alive. Sure, just like us, he has his own human addictions : money, power, money, money. Maybe he is often manipulative, but I believe this is a result of primative survival insticts. He must survive and live as the person he believes he is - at almost any cost. I haven't seen anyone describe Maharaji as a "monster." I doubt he tortures animals or children, although I have heard stories that reflect a certain sadistic tendency. But you can have the best of intentions and nevertheless cause great damage to others. And once you discover you have done that, if you are a responsible human being, you stop doing it and apologize to those you inadventently hurt. Maharaji hasn't either stopped (although I gather he pulled back in the 80s such that NOTHING was happening in regard to his perfect master scheme, I guess while he went through a mid-life crisis and tried to figure out what to do) and hasn't even admitted that some people who got caught up in, as you say, his pursuit of his addictions, one of which, I believe, is the need to be worshipped. And this probably comes from the fact that he was worshipped since he was born, and certainly by the time he was 8. But it's much more than a need for survival. He could survive very well just off a few rich premies who are personally attached and in love with him. People like OP, but with lots of disposable income. No, at some point he consciously chose to continue the program, only toning it down so that it wouldn't crash and burn because of its obvious absurdness. Can you imagine premies in their 50s standing on their chairs screaming as he danced, bare-chested, with that flute up on a big stage while wearing a crown? Can you imagine ashrams with premies in their 50s wondering what the hell they are going to live on in their retirement? That might make 20/20 and really make him the laughing stock of the country more than he already is. No, he had to change some things to keep the trip going, but I'm sure it was hard for him to give a lot of that up. No, he had to tone it down some, but I think his psychological need to be worshipped may be his downfall, along with his insatiable addiction to money and "the best" of the material things the world has to offer. Hence, the need for $10,000 a month and $6,000,000 a year, and the personal, psychological need to have his devotees kiss his feet again. He doesn't seem to be able to eliminate those old Hindi rituals entirely, and he won't learn to live within some more reasonable financial constraints. Even all that wouldn't be so bad, but the satisfaction of his addictions requires DEVOTEES, at least a certain number of them, and he requires at least a certain number of them in the West, because that's where the money is and because that's where he can live the kind of lifestyle he wants. And those are the people who can get ripped off, and who might make choices in their lives they will ultimately regret because they value their devotion to Maharaji over other the things that are really important, like their own personal freedom, family, friends, career, and all the rest of it. At least I know I made some pretty regrettable choices because I considered by devotion to him above all else. JW
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Date: Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 17:13:02 (EST)
Poster: rethink
Email: bb
To: John Cavad
Subject: that one (Re: He was born a king)
Message:
He has had more than enough money, and more importantly, free time, to figure out how to happily spread free information. But he has not played his hand, his opportunities with the clarity that could have left him in a really strong hand at this point in his life. And after a mid life crisis, he still falls back on hinduism and personal devotion as his way. Even quitting is a bad fall back position, instead of faceing the facts and adjusting to them, he will bail out and maintain the lord in waiting status. Fine if you are trying to form another religion in the long term, but what except trauma will this do to the long term followers? Probably he will just retire to amaroo and other locales and send instructors and videos at a reduced rate to the active areas. There will be 'ambassadors' or what have you to tour and he will wait. Amar is slated for the job and thats that. There is no way a women is getting the job, you haven't heard maharaji talk about women pilots, I have the tape. This is not a dumb move on his part, but there is a better move, come clean to himself, point to god and not himself, deal directly with the complaint department,us, address the past and redeem himself, proceed. But really, he has toasted way too many people, he has behaved as if he wanted to sabatoge himself all along, the only excuse I could come up with is the one about the word wanting to keep itself hidden. Any other reason is beyond me except maybe it is the real lord not wanting someone else playing him. It's bad enough the pope calls himself 'holy father' but maharaji was the 'ultimate ruler' in case you forgot. Maybe you don't think he is the 'monster' whatever, but as the living lord, that HAS to catch someone elses attention if there IS a concious power besides us. Well, RESIGNING from ultimate rulership warrents some press, and I am willing to type a few words, but to go 'AWWWWWW' thats too bad, he was raised to be lord, I can't join you and bobby in this heartfelt understanding. Judges send people to prison every day and those folks sincerely deserve prison. The real lord has given us a concience, and also things like religious ten commandments and laws of men, and mothers or others feedback to clue us in when we misbehave, survival has never been an issue for him, to say the least, and he is not the first to put his own ego before the needs of his fellow man, Jesus and the proverbs say reams about a man and his behaviour, and what god expects of him. Even if you don't believe in god like bobby, and before, even Jim, you don't believe in an anything goes world. To have the living lord exceed all behavioural boundries and get away with it is a very hindu idea but hinduism is the mother of the caste system, and a host of stupidly wasted lives. Not done but got to go.
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Date: Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 17:31:01 (EST)
Poster: John Cavad
Email:
To: rethink
Subject: Re: that one (Re: He was born a king)
Message:
He has had more than enough money, and more importantly, free time, to figure out how to happily spread free information. But he has not played his hand, his opportunities with the clarity that could have left him in a really strong hand at this point in his life. And after a mid life crisis, he still falls back on hinduism and personal devotion as his way. Even quitting is a bad fall back position, instead of faceing the facts and adjusting to them, he will bail out and maintain the lord in waiting status. Fine if you are trying to form another religion in the long term, but what except trauma will this do to the long term followers? Probably he will just retire to amaroo and other locales and send instructors and videos at a reduced rate to the active areas. There will be 'ambassadors' or what have you to tour and he will wait. Amar is slated for the job and thats that. There is no way a women is getting the job, you haven't heard maharaji talk about women pilots, I have the tape. This is not a dumb move on his part, but there is a better move, come clean to himself, point to god and not himself, deal directly with the complaint department,us, address the past and redeem himself, proceed. But really, he has toasted way too many people, he has behaved as if he wanted to sabatoge himself all along, the only excuse I could come up with is the one about the word wanting to keep itself hidden. Any other reason is beyond me except maybe it is the real lord not wanting someone else playing him. It's bad enough the pope calls himself 'holy father' but maharaji was the 'ultimate ruler' in case you forgot. Maybe you don't think he is the 'monster' whatever, but as the living lord, that HAS to catch someone elses attention if there IS a concious power besides us. Well, RESIGNING from ultimate rulership warrents some press, and I am willing to type a few words, but to go 'AWWWWWW' thats too bad, he was raised to be lord, I can't join you and bobby in this heartfelt understanding. Judges send people to prison every day and those folks sincerely deserve prison. The real lord has given us a concience, and also things like religious ten commandments and laws of men, and mothers or others feedback to clue us in when we misbehave, survival has never been an issue for him, to say the least, and he is not the first to put his own ego before the needs of his fellow man, Jesus and the proverbs say reams about a man and his behaviour, and what god expects of him. Even if you don't believe in god like bobby, and before, even Jim, you don't believe in an anything goes world. To have the living lord exceed all behavioural boundries and get away with it is a very hindu idea but hinduism is the mother of the caste system, and a host of stupidly wasted lives. Not done but got to go. Who wrote all this stuff. Please identify yourself. Nevertheless, you may have missed my point of the topic (though you expressed some truth and an interesting perspective). I realize it's difficult to cummunicate in this manner over the internet, granted. I'm saying you can not view or deal with this man (GMJ) the same way you view leaders from other cults (e.g., Do from Heaven's Gate). GMJ is not entirely a self-made leader.
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Date: Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 18:34:23 (EST)
Poster: op
Email:
To: John Cavad
Subject: Re: that one (Re: He was born a king)
Message:
Dear John: Just to clarify for you, as you seem not to be getting the hang of some of the stuff on this forum: bb is bill burke, and he posts under many and various names when he feels like it. You have to read very carefully into his stream of consciousness to understand, often, what his point is. If you don't have the patience, don't bother commenting. You seem to be very very serious about what you are doing here. I appreciate such comments as that you don't think of M as a monster, etc., but you might try injecting yourself with a dose of humour, as Sir David has. There's a time for laughter and a time for serious discussion, but that doesn't mean they can't overlap every once in a while. When people are off topic, that sometimes leads to some of the more enlightened discoveries. Did you ever attend a brainstorming session? Happy New Year to one and all! p.s. to Bobby: I know that you were pissed off because someone insulted you without identifying her/himself. But I agree with Katie that everyone here should have the freedom to express without worrying about the immediate consequences. After all, we're all in virtual mode here - none of us is real, although some of us just MAY be more honest than others, identification notwithstanding.
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Date: Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 18:37:47 (EST)
Poster: John, again
Email:
To: John Cavad
Subject: Re: that one (Re: He was born a king)
Message:
I think what Mr. Rethink is also saying is that there should be justice served here. GMJ should accept the consequences of all his actions. Well, if there is a supreme being out there and He's not GMJ, I believe the man who faked being Him will have plenty to answer for in due time. If you're a Catholic thinker, then the faker will surely burn in hell. Yet, I don't believe that GMJ will ever be tried and sentenced as a fake in this lifetime. He'll go on living like a hedonist for the rest of his years. You know, the Greek island of Mykonos is a perfect place to play out that part.
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Date: Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 19:43:51 (EST)
Poster: O
Email: bb
To: op
Subject: P (Re: He was born a king)
Message:
OP, I'm sorry about all this, if it is ruining your day or anything, it is probabaly good I came here for a gradual thing because him retireing would have been a hell of a sudden shock to me. I know someone who goes to those meetings and they usually tell me what happens. I haven't seen them yet but I would have by now usually. Frankly the idea still wierds me out. I'm going to new york for a week and if they have heard of it I know that it wont be good. These are some more of those gopi types. Do you think he will pull the happy buddha thing out of the hat eventually? You know, the one in everybodys garden. I know for my neighbors this whole issue is nonexistent, yet for me it's a little like a family member that does something that spooks the whole clan.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 1, 1998 at 22:59:57 (EST)
Poster: Jphn Cavad
Email:
To: Everyone
Subject: Message for Mili
Message:
Hi, Mili. By now you should know that I'm not here to harass or insult individuals who post here. Please tell me, why do you post things that are not appropriate (for this forum) so often? Of course, you've post some interesting things from time to time which I enjoy. But why all the other stuff? It doesn't do much to argue with certain people here (e.g., Jim). Thanks.
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Date: Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 04:06:34 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Jphn Cavad
Subject: Re: Message for Mili
Message:
Hi, Mili. By now you should know that I'm not here to harass or insult individuals who post here. Please tell me, why do you post things that are not appropriate (for this forum) so often? Of course, you've post some interesting things from time to time which I enjoy. But why all the other stuff? It doesn't do much to argue with certain people here (e.g., Jim). Thanks. Just because you don't think it is appropriate doesn't mean that I don't think it's appropriate.
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Date: Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 10:42:28 (EST)
Poster: John Cavad
Email:
To: Mili
Subject: Re: Message for Mili
Message:
Mili said, "Just because you don't think it is appropriate doesn't mean that I don't think it's appropriate." Naturally, Mili, that fact is understood. I'm trying to understand why you think it's appropriate. Is this just fun for you or do you have concrete motivations here. I'm only trying to understand you better...that's my only intention of this post. Thanks.
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Date: Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 11:50:44 (EST)
Poster: John Cavad
Email:
To: John Cavad
Subject: Re: Message for Mili
Message:
Mili, I get the impression from these post that you no longer practice Knowledge religiously. Is this true?
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Date: Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 15:47:00 (EST)
Poster: John K.
Email:
To: Jphn Cavad
Subject: Re: Message for Mili
Message:
Remember that story that used to be told a looooong time ago about the power of satsang. That hearing just one minute of satsang, whether you wanted to or not, could save your life? As I remember it, there was some guy in prison who learned something in satsang that allowed him to escape. Very dumb story. But,I think Mili might be operating under that principle. He will throw his pearls before us swine just because it WILL do SOMEone some good some day because it is the TRUTH. Also, it could be the idea that this is a corrupt area of the universe and that it needs to be cleaned up and made respectable, and so he fills it with stuff that he thinks is really wise and spiritual. I agree with you though, that most of it is really not appropriate. I like hearing people's personal experiences, I don't like these quotes from books.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 1, 1998 at 22:20:17 (EST)
Poster: Isaiah's brother
Email:
To: Everyone(exept Mili)
Subject: More good tidings
Message:
How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of Mili that bringeth an argument, that publisheth insults unto Jim and Brian; that bringeth good tidings of slander. That publisheth damnation unto thine ex-premies; that sayeth unto Zion, My god reigneth! And the prophet sayeth: Yea, even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, my laptop and my mobile modem will comfort me, for thou art with me thy Forum 2, even unto the cyber lands of Britain and the Mid West.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 1, 1998 at 22:53:34 (EST)
Poster: John Cavad
Email:
To: Isaiah's brother
Subject: Re: More good tidings
Message:
Hey, brother. This isn't the Bible forum. They have plenty of their own forums. Please, STOP WASTING OUR DISK SPACE!!!
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Date: Thurs, Jan 1, 1998 at 23:39:06 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email:
To: John Cavad
Subject: Re: More good tidings
Message:
Hey, brother. This isn't the Bible forum. They have plenty of their own forums. Please, STOP WASTING OUR DISK SPACE!!! Hey, Johnny, I disagree. Isaiah was the one who was wasting the disk space. I found Isaiah's bro's message to be pretty funny, not to mention somewhat relevant to the forum.
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Date: Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 00:02:09 (EST)
Poster: bible forum
Email:
To: John Cavad
Subject: Re: More good tidings
Message:
wait for special message......
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Date: Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 00:09:50 (EST)
Poster: Isaiah's brother
Email:
To: Katie
Subject: Re: More good tidings
Message:
Glad you got the message there Katie. I thought I'd keep well away from the heavy stuff if I wrote something on the forum but even my humour gets me into trouble. Cheers from Sir David.
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Date: Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 00:13:53 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email:
To: Isaiah's brother
Subject: Re: More good tidings
Message:
Thanks, David. It made me laugh out loud. That doesn't happen very often. (I appreciate your mention of the Midwest, by the way.)
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Date: Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 00:23:41 (EST)
Poster: bible forum
Email:
To: John Cavad
Subject: Re: More good tidings
Message:
another important message from our sponsors..
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Date: Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 00:23:52 (EST)
Poster: Brian
Email:
To: Katie
Subject: Re: More good tidings
Message:
I found Isaiah's bro's message to be pretty funny, not to mention somewhat relevant to the forum. The problem with Scripture is that you can take everything so many different ways. Should I be insulted?? Should I be flattered?? I gave up and just laughed. Pretty funny, IB. Bizarre, but funny. Of course if certain people would just check their mailboxes now...
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Date: Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 01:37:02 (EST)
Poster: John Cavad
Email:
To: Isaiah's brother
Subject: Re: Apology (Re: More good tidings)
Message:
Sorry, Sir David. I was a little drunk when I responded. Forgive me. You know I hate Christian Fundalmentalist more than any other cult in history. You see, in my home town, thanks to these fanatics we've made national news concerning the school district a couple of years ago. They took over the board (voted in) and forced Creationism in the schools. It's a long story, but some of you may be familiar with it. It happened in a few towns across the USA.
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Date: Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 06:32:00 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Isaiah's brother
Subject: Re: More good tidings
Message:
How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of Mili that bringeth an argument, that publisheth insults unto Jim and Brian; that bringeth good tidings of slander. That publisheth damnation unto thine ex-premies; that sayeth unto Zion, My god reigneth! And the prophet sayeth: Yea, even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, my laptop and my mobile modem will comfort me, for thou art with me thy Forum 2, even unto the cyber lands of Britain and the Mid West. You have some good points there, but it wasn't me who posted that Isaiah quote. I respect the Bible, but I am not an avid reader. Just a few comments on this forum - someone was trying hard to prove that this was a place for open exchange of information. Why don't you be honest and admit that this is a part of an anti-Maharaji website and only 'anti' views are tolerated? Anything else, be it neutral or 'pro' meets with insults and a priori rejection. Don't kid yourself about freedom of speech here. I don't think any arguments would ever convince Jim or anyone else here. That's why it's useless to argue. The 'logic' he swears to is only a rationalization of his opinions. Opinions are not fact, though. Anyway, we are talking about dimensions of human experience here (at least I am, sometimes). This is unquantifiable and therefore unsuitable for scientific analysis. Experiences are not things, objects. It is a fallacy to discuss them as such.
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Date: Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 09:41:52 (EST)
Poster: Bobby
Email:
To: Mili
Subject: Re: More good tidings
Message:
How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of Mili that bringeth an argument, that publisheth insults unto Jim and Brian; that bringeth good tidings of slander. That publisheth damnation unto thine ex-premies; that sayeth unto Zion, My god reigneth! And the prophet sayeth: Yea, even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, my laptop and my mobile modem will comfort me, for thou art with me thy Forum 2, even unto the cyber lands of Britain and the Mid West. You have some good points there, but it wasn't me who posted that Isaiah quote. I respect the Bible, but I am not an avid reader. Just a few comments on this forum - someone was trying hard to prove that this was a place for open exchange of information. Why don't you be honest and admit that this is a part of an anti-Maharaji website and only 'anti' views are tolerated? Anything else, be it neutral or 'pro' meets with insults and a priori rejection. Don't kid yourself about freedom of speech here. I don't think any arguments would ever convince Jim or anyone else here. That's why it's useless to argue. The 'logic' he swears to is only a rationalization of his opinions. Opinions are not fact, though. Anyway, we are talking about dimensions of human experience here (at least I am, sometimes). This is unquantifiable and therefore unsuitable for scientific analysis. Experiences are not things, objects. It is a fallacy to discuss them as such. Good analysis Mili. I think they should change the name of this site from ex-premie to anti-maharaji. I agree, only "anti" views are tolerated here.
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Date: Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 10:46:37 (EST)
Poster: Isaiah's brother
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: you
Subject: Re: More good tidings
Message:
Understandable mistake John, especially considering the time of year. I know what you mean about those fanatical Christians. I think your problem is much greater than here in Britain. Nobody takes too much notice of them here. We don't have such a strong Christian force in the UK - all our Jesus freaks went to the New World (USA). I couldn't resist rewriting that scripture especially after reading about how you wanted to go up into the mountains this year, Mili.
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Date: Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 11:08:45 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Isaiah's brother
Subject: Re: More good tidings
Message:
Understandable mistake John, especially considering the time of year. I know what you mean about those fanatical Christians. I think your problem is much greater than here in Britain. Nobody takes too much notice of them here. We don't have such a strong Christian force in the UK - all our Jesus freaks went to the New World (USA). I couldn't resist rewriting that scripture especially after reading about how you wanted to go up into the mountains this year, Mili. Actually, it was amusing, David, a relief after all the offensive stuff I got dumped onto me these few days while Jim was back in town. If I do make it to the mountains, I certainly won't be taking a laptop with me. Maybe just a walking stick, a Swiss knife and some matches. Hey, ever think of coming down to the Adriatic for the summer? Things have calmed down here, and Dubrovnik is as beautiful as ever - not too cheap, but still definitely worth it. And you can't beat the islands like Hvar, Brac and Korcula. If you ever decide on coming down, let me know - I'd be glad to help you out!
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Date: Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 12:30:04 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Bobby and Mili
Subject: Re: More good tidings
Message:
Hi Mili and Bobby - Just a few points: 1. This is an ex-premie forum, you are right. What else did you expect? Obviously, there IS freedom of speech here, though, or Mili wouldn't be posting on here. (Remember the premie.org guestbook?). 2. I wouldn't go so far as to characterize it as an anti-maharaji forum. I personally don't care about Maharaji very much most of the time. I don't care enought about him to hate him. However, a lot of the people on here have suffered greatly as a result of being Maharaji's followers, and I think they should have a place to express their opinions, including anger towards Maharaji. 3. You are right that you will probably never convince me that following Maharaji is a good thing. People on the forum HAVE convinced me that - Meditation can be a good experience; also other spiritual experiences are valid. - Premies are people too (I already knew that theoretically, but I always avoided contact with premies, so I never knew it empirically). 4. EX-PREMIES ARE NOT ALL ALIKE. Sorry for yelling, but I am tired of people treating me like I am a Jim Heller clone, or that all ex-premies have the same view on life. It's insulting to both me and Jim and the other ex-premies. I don't have the same philosophy or feelings that he does. Furthermore, I agree that experiences can be valid and everything can't be proved logically. 5. Bobby, if you would explain how you feel about Maharaji, I think it would be tolerated by most people on the site. There are a few people on here who would not like it, and would make statements deliberately intended to provoke you - I would ignore them if I were you. I find it difficult to read some of the statements that you have made about Jim - I agree that he can be aggressive and ornery at times, but he's a human being too.
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Date: Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 13:04:27 (EST)
Poster: Bobby
Email:
To: Katie
Subject: Re: More good tidings
Message:
I find it difficult to read some of the statements that you have made about Jim - I agree that he can be aggressive and ornery at times, but he's a human being too. If a human being repeatedly punches you in the face, what do you do? I have warned Jim off repeatedly, yet he continues to attack. His unflinching aggression is intolerable to me and frankly, I can't understand how it is so acceptable to others. Maybe for some of us it is only words. My view is that we are responsible for our words. I do my best to walk my talk. With Jim I feel like responding physically. He is very good with words. It takes a lot to parry his remarks. When I do take the time and the energy to respond, he doesn't appear to hear at all. He just keeps on coming with the same old shit, anger and accusations. I can't respect that kind of behavior. Then again, those of us who live in American live in a country where all sorts of violence is tolerated. Look who we elect to office. Once again, I apologize for my outbursts. I have strong feelings. It is very hard for me to respond to a lot of what comes up for me on this board. Much of what I see is uncivil. I react to what is directed at me. Please see my response to John's question about my feelings about Maharaji above. I'll be happy to discuss anything I post when done in a civil manner. Sometimes it takes me awhile though, especially with posts that are well-thought out or call for subtle consideration. I do a lot of internal processing that sometimes takes awhile. Plus I am sometimes pretty busy with other activities (or should be). I haven't addressed all your points here Katie. I think I have at other times though. If there is anything you still want me to answer, please ask.
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Date: Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 13:09:16 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Katie
Subject: Re: More good tidings
Message:
Hi Mili and Bobby - Just a few points: 1. This is an ex-premie forum, you are right. What else did you expect? Obviously, there IS freedom of speech here, though, or Mili wouldn't be posting on here. (Remember the premie.org guestbook?). 2. I wouldn't go so far as to characterize it as an anti-maharaji forum. I personally don't care about Maharaji very much most of the time. I don't care enought about him to hate him. However, a lot of the people on here have suffered greatly as a result of being Maharaji's followers, and I think they should have a place to express their opinions, including anger towards Maharaji. 3. You are right that you will probably never convince me that following Maharaji is a good thing. People on the forum HAVE convinced me that - Meditation can be a good experience; also other spiritual experiences are valid. - Premies are people too (I already knew that theoretically, but I always avoided contact with premies, so I never knew it empirically). 4. EX-PREMIES ARE NOT ALL ALIKE. Sorry for yelling, but I am tired of people treating me like I am a Jim Heller clone, or that all ex-premies have the same view on life. It's insulting to both me and Jim and the other ex-premies. I don't have the same philosophy or feelings that he does. Furthermore, I agree that experiences can be valid and everything can't be proved logically. 5. Bobby, if you would explain how you feel about Maharaji, I think it would be tolerated by most people on the site. There are a few people on here who would not like it, and would make statements deliberately intended to provoke you - I would ignore them if I were you. I find it difficult to read some of the statements that you have made about Jim - I agree that he can be aggressive and ornery at times, but he's a human being too. Katie, you are right about the freedom of speech here. But then you must agree that it also includes my right to tell anyone who calls me an idiot that he is an idiot, too - and then some. However, I am really suspicious of your statement 'many people suffered greatly as a result of being Maharaji's followers'. Who are these people? Are they the ones listed on the 'White Pages'? Or, in the 'Journeys'? If you read the 'Journeys' files, I don't think you'll find them there. Rather, I think this statement reflects your unfounded bias in this matter. Like, 'This is supposedly a cult, so there supposedly MUST be some people who greatly suffered.' This is no cult - the door was always open: to go in and out as you wish. I just think you should be more careful in making such general statements, that's all.
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Date: Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 14:31:02 (EST)
Poster: Sir David
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: Mili
Subject: Re: More good tidings
Message:
Your part of the world sounds idylic, Mili. I've seen it on TV of course especially when the war was happening. When my children are a bit older I'd like to make the trip. See you then...
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Date: Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 15:20:06 (EST)
Poster: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net
To: bible forum
Subject: Re: More good tidings
Message:
Hmmmm, sounds like a Subgenius Slack Revival!
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Date: Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 15:28:19 (EST)
Poster: Bobby
Email:
To: Mickey the Pharisee
Subject: Re: More good tidings
Message:
Hmmmm, sounds like a Subgenius Slack Revival! Yeah, Reverend Stang with "Fuck 'em if they can't take a joke".
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Date: Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 18:08:17 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email:
To: Mili
Subject: Re: More good tidings
Message:
Dear Mili - I agree that you have the right to tell anyone who calls you an idiot that he/she is an idiot and then some. What I object to is when you dump on people who did NOT call you an idiot. Of course, you have the right to do this too - I just don't like it. Regarding generalizations: possibly I should not have said that "a lot of people on (the forum) suffered greatly as a result of their involvement with Maharaji". Maybe we should put it up to a vote. I still think that quite a few people did suffer; in fact I know several people that suffered who both DO and DON'T post on this forum. By the way, I never felt that the "door was always open: to go in and out as you wish". I think you are lucky to have felt that. Finally, I never used the word "cult". I know that that is a word that polarizes and alienates people, plus I think it has lost most of its meaning from overuse. Thus I don't use it. Please try and understand that. Regards from Katie
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Date: Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 18:24:12 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Bobby
Subject: Re: More good tidings
Message:
Thanks, Bobby. I don't feel like you need to answer anything more. The post was really to Mili AND you, and some of the questions were more for Mili. I did read your response to John Cavad's question about Maharaji and I hope other people did too. It is a very clear explanation of where you're coming from regarding Maharaji. I am not sure what you can do about the situation between you and Jim. I think that your options are: 1. Quit posting on the forum 2. Continue posting on the forum and fighting with Jim. 3. Continue posting on the forum and ignore Jim. Of course, I'd prefer if you took the third option and just blew off Jim as "a tiny fly buzzing around your head", or whatever Mickey/Michael said previously (it was a good quote). I certainly wouldn't think less of you if you did so, and I don't think anyone would either. You have a lot of other things to contribute to the forum besides your feelings about Jim. I understand where you are coming from when you say that it's hard to put up with Jim's attacks. I HATE being flamed - it can make me depressed for days - and it's very hard for me to resist responding. However, you have TRIED to respond to Jim with no success. At this point, I don't feel that any constructive dialogue is possible between you and Jim, at least for the moment, and I would like it if you quit wasting your time trying to answer him. But if you feel that you cannot continue posting on here if Jim is around, then I respect that too.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 1, 1998 at 12:25:45 (EST)
Poster: Seymour
Email: Seymour_t@rocketmail.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Lost Threads- Nigel & JW
Message:
I seem to have lost the posts that I am trying to reply to. Can we still access the forum from the beginning or is it now consigned to the archives ( and where are they?) Sorry if this makes little sense but in reply to 'Knowledge and Evolution' from Nigel:- Hello Nigel. You make some good points. Even when I was completely absorbed in devotion I tended to miss rational discourse and although G.M.'s satsang could be amusing or seem wise there was always a lack of intellectual content. He never really discussed recent discoveries, science, philosophy, sociology or any of the questions that often crossed my mind such as your point about Darwinist evolution, or ethics, or politics etc. etc. - topics that are around us in our everyday lives. Could it be that using the mind to understand and improve ourselves was discouraged in favour of a more emotive, devotional, do-as-you're-told/don't-think-about-it approach? It is dubious practice to entice people through touching them emotionally and attempting to suppress rationality .Surely we should aim at a balance between 'head and heart'. But just because you feel you should be led by your heart does not mean thinking is excluded or taboo as all the talk of 'mind' during my time with DLM seemed to indicate. And in reply to JW's 'Why change Gurus?' ....... I went from Catholic to Hedonist teenager, to psychology student, to eastern religion/philosophy, to TM, to knowledge and, as you say is the case of many ex-premies, to my present secular humanist state. It is good and feels right but I still hope to find some underlying rhyme and reason to our chaotic, fragile lives. I am, however, very cautious when it comes to trusting any one person or philosophy - hopefully having learnt my lesson - and will always try to keep an open mind to other people's ideas and experience. Cheers Seymour.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 1, 1998 at 16:49:34 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: Seymour
Subject: Re: Lost Threads- Nigel & JW
Message:
And in reply to JW's 'Why change Gurus?' ....... I went from Catholic to Hedonist teenager, to psychology student, to eastern religion/philosophy, to TM, to knowledge and, as you say is the case of many ex-premies, to my present secular humanist state. It is good and feels right but I still hope to find some underlying rhyme and reason to our chaotic, fragile lives. I am, however, very cautious when it comes to trusting any one person or philosophy - hopefully having learnt my lesson - and will always try to keep an open mind to other people's ideas and experience. Cheers Seymour. Hello Seymour. I think I went from emersed Catholic (12 years of Catholic education) to a short stint as a sort of political, hippie, college student at a time when the church became temporarily liberal, and then to Mahraji's cult, I think partly because I lost faith that either religion or politics, or cultural change, would really bring peace and justice to the world. And I guess I was willing to believe that Maharaji might be able to do that. Again, I was wrong. I go through phases when I feel I would like something more spiritual in my life, but as I approach it, those "Ive-had-enough-of-that" feelings come back. I do go to a Metropolitan Community Church in my neighborhood, mostly because the church does so much good work in the community. I deliver meals to people disabled because of AIDS and work with an organization called PAWS that takes care of the dogs and cats of people with AIDS who can't take care of them without help. The church helps organize that, as well as a homeless "drop-in" clinic that helps people with medical needs and runs a meals program. Anyhow, I guess that is sort of my spirituality now. Trying to be of some service to others. The church is ostensibly Christian, but the minister told me, (we have a lesbian minister), after I expressed my concern about having to beleive things like that Jesus Christ was divine, which I don't, that all that was necessary to belong to the church was to believe that "Jesus was a good role model." I was able to buy that. And to tell you the truth, it was partly Maharajis total lack of concern for the plight of other humans that turned me off so much from him. He just puffed himself up with ever more luxuries while extolling the premies to focus only on their own experience and to devote to HIM. I don't recall him ever saying that any human, including him, had any obligation to give help to others who might be less fortunate. JW
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Date: Thurs, Jan 1, 1998 at 19:39:16 (EST)
Poster: Nigel
Email:
To: Seymour
Subject: Re: Lost Threads- Nigel & JW
Message:
I seem to have lost the posts that I am trying to reply to. Can we still access the forum from the beginning or is it now consigned to the archives ( and where are they?) Sorry if this makes little sense but in reply to 'Knowledge and Evolution' from Nigel:- Hello Nigel. You make some good points. Even when I was completely absorbed in devotion I tended to miss rational discourse and although G.M.'s satsang could be amusing or seem wise there was always a lack of intellectual content. He never really discussed recent discoveries, science, philosophy, sociology or any of the questions that often crossed my mind such as your point about Darwinist evolution, or ethics, or politics etc. etc. - topics that are around us in our everyday lives. Could it be that using the mind to understand and improve ourselves was discouraged in favour of a more emotive, devotional, do-as-you're-told/don't-think-about-it approach? It is dubious practice to entice people through touching them emotionally and attempting to suppress rationality .Surely we should aim at a balance between 'head and heart'. But just because you feel you should be led by your heart does not mean thinking is excluded or taboo as all the talk of 'mind' during my time with DLM seemed to indicate. And in reply to JW's 'Why change Gurus?' ....... I went from Catholic to Hedonist teenager, to psychology student, to eastern religion/philosophy, to TM, to knowledge and, as you say is the case of many ex-premies, to my present secular humanist state. It is good and feels right but I still hope to find some underlying rhyme and reason to our chaotic, fragile lives. I am, however, very cautious when it comes to trusting any one person or philosophy - hopefully having learnt my lesson - and will always try to keep an open mind to other people's ideas and experience. Cheers Seymour. I'm still trying to find the recent archives myself. You'd better check with Brian. The issues you've raised deserve more time than I've got right now. I'll get back to you soon. Best wishes
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Date: Thurs, Jan 1, 1998 at 12:19:22 (EST)
Poster: John Cavad
Email:
To: Everyone
Subject: Request to Brian: Remove it!
Message:
Hi, Brian, I have a request for this web site, as I'm sure most others would agree: GET RID OF THE GMJ PHOTO ON THIS SITE! I'm sure all the current premies love it, but I, for one, think it's inappropriate and offensive for this web site. Do the anti-Nazi's have a picture of Hitler on each page of their site? Perhaps you can replace it with a photo of "The Thinker" to depict our admiration for independent thinking and living.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 1, 1998 at 13:10:36 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: John Cavad
Subject: Re: Request to Brian: Remove it!
Message:
I counter that request. That's a nice picture and I would appreciate it if you would leave it. It reminds us all of what the topic of this forum is all about. - Mili
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Date: Thurs, Jan 1, 1998 at 16:07:53 (EST)
Poster: Brian
Email:
To: John Cavad
Subject: Re: Request to Brian: Remove it!
Message:
I know. I see that damn picture in my sleep. The home page will have pictures of MJ on it (so that people can quicky determine relevance in any web search) and there will be others scattered wherever the subject merits it. Otherwise, I'm placing a masthead at the top of each site page. If anyone has some good pictures that I can use, please scan them and send them to brian@ex-premie.org in either .gif or .jpg format (uuencoding is fine if you can't attach them). Right now there is only one of MJ this side of puberty, and it's pretty poor quality. I'm trying to clean it up some. Lesseee... 3 eyes... It's gonna take a few weeks before any major site changes are seen.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 1, 1998 at 16:10:11 (EST)
Poster: Brian
Email:
To: Mili
Subject: Re: Request to Brian: Remove it!
Message:
I counter that request. That's a nice picture and I would appreciate it if you would leave it. It reminds us all of what the topic of this forum is all about. - Mili Sorry, John. Mili says we gotta keep it :(
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Date: Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 12:33:26 (EST)
Poster: John Cavad
Email:
To: Brian
Subject: Re: Request to Brian: Remove it!
Message:
Thanks, Brian. I suppose having the home page depict GMJ is good in that it will identify the relavant site to surfers, and hopefully many of them will be aspirants thinking, "Hey great. It's our lord!" Then we blast their beliefs with all our "mind"!!!!!
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Date: Thurs, Jan 1, 1998 at 11:24:42 (EST)
Poster: Dr. J. Katshitanand
Email:
To: Everyone
Subject: I get blissed out
Message:
I get completely blissed out by the way that whenever a thread gets a bit too earnest, or slips towards that 'maybe we should give m a little bit of credit after all' way of thinking, Jim will come blazing in and torch everything in sight. (see The Word thread below) We are not talking brainless flaming here. Mixing honesty, anger and wit is, I think, a pretty good definition of satire - and the vital ingedient is ridicule. This kind of no-bullshit, take-no-prisoners common sense is exactly the sort of thing that every wavering premie and would-be aspirant needs to read. A recurring question that appears here - but one that is never satisfactorily answered - is why several practising premies keep posting in the face of this kind of onslaught? I think the answer is obvious: they are not trying to persuade, Jim, John, JW or the rest of us lost causes that m is as pure as the driven snow. Instead they are desperately trying to balance out the pro- and anti- sentiments expressed here, and thereby limit the inevitable damage done to m's loathesome enterprise. (Note the highoutput-to-contributor ratio). Mili, in particular is a one-man propaganda machine. PS to Brien: do we have any idea (aside from people who post) just how many people visit this site? Better still, do we have any known converts, yet? PS to Jim: MAY YOUR VENOM NEVER RUN DRY
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Date: Thurs, Jan 1, 1998 at 11:47:30 (EST)
Poster: Bobby
Email:
To: Dr. J. Katshitanand
Subject: Re: I get blissed out
Message:
We are not talking brainless flaming here. Mixing honesty, anger and wit is, with good measures of venom, bigotry, and closed-minded ideological behavior I think, a pretty good definition of satire - and the vital ingedient is ridicule. Tell me, do you like Rush Limbaugh? How 'bout Josef Goebbels? A highly intelligent man he was. Ridicule denigrates and destroys vital human aspects. Ridicule is hurtful. It sucks. This kind of no-bullshit, take-no-prisoners common sense is exactly the sort of thing that every wavering premie and would-be aspirant needs to read. How bout we lock 'em up and brainwash them with our own brand of PC behavior? Forced treatment, you know? We don't like these stupid premies so we should force them to see our way. Friend, no one has the right to blast or force their views on anyone else. That goes for the Rush Limbaughs, the Josef Goebbels, and yes, the Jim Hellers.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 1, 1998 at 11:58:09 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Dr. J. Katshitanand
Subject: Re: I get blissed out
Message:
So, how do you do the katshit - you eat it, smear it all over yourself, or what?
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Date: Thurs, Jan 1, 1998 at 12:46:50 (EST)
Poster: Bobby
Email:
To: Dr. J. Katshitanand
Subject: Re: I get blissed out
Message:
Who are you anyway? Are you someone that posts on this board under another name. With an opinionated post such as yours, calling for more ridicule and venom, common decency and honesty calls for you to identify yourself.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 1, 1998 at 15:19:11 (EST)
Poster: Dr J. Katshitanand
Email:
To: Bobby & Mili
Subject: Re: I get blissed out
Message:
Who are you anyway? Are you someone that posts on this board under another name. With an opinionated post such as yours, calling for more ridicule and venom, common decency and honesty calls for you to identify yourself. To Bobby "Anger, desires, attachments rob us of eternal life" Don't get too cross there, matey or you'll be damned along with the rest of us. You're a bit like 'A TRUE PRIMIE' who posted here last week. Didn't know the difference between crucifixion and criticism. As to identification, when there's no email given (as in your case), you could be a perfect stranger, for all I know... You tell me, and I'll tell you Love and kisses, JK To Mili It is very disrespectful to mock another person's name. Didn't you once have a hit with "My Boy Lollipop"? or was that a different "Millie" who topped the UK charts in 1964? Anyway its devotional lyrics are spot-on for expressing the thoughts of most sad toe-kissers. "My boy lollipop You make my heart go giddy-up You are as sweet as candy You're my sugar dandy"
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Date: Thurs, Jan 1, 1998 at 15:23:53 (EST)
Poster: Dr JK
Email:
To: Bobby
Subject: Re: I get blissed out
Message:
Who are you anyway? Are you someone that posts on this board under another name. With an opinionated post such as yours, calling for more ridicule and venom, common decency and honesty calls for you to identify yourself. And how do I know you are the REAL Bobby, and not an imposter?
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Date: Thurs, Jan 1, 1998 at 15:58:17 (EST)
Poster: Brian
Email:
To: Dr. J. Katshitanand
Subject: Re: I get blissed out
Message:
PS to Brien: do we have any idea (aside from people who post) just how many people visit this site? Better still, do we have any known converts, yet? I'm going to put a hit counter on the site's homepage. I'm still mapping out the format of that page, since it will set the overall tone for the site. As to "converting" people, I think that the site should be serving as a source of information regarding our experiences with MJ. Many premies who have left are in possession of valuable information that could help those who haven't left make a more informed decision on whether or how they want MJ to fit into their lives. Most of the helpful site content has come from people who had enough and want to share what they know with those willing to listen. Other content, however, undercuts the credibility of the useful information. People have to be allowed to leave their false beliefs behind as gently as they were led into them in the first place. MJ "grades" video content according to who it should be aimed at, leading them gently from wanting to know something about themselves to wanting to devote their live to furthering his. The site has to have a tone that doesn't drive people away before they have an opportunity to really consider the information available here. I'm talking about ex-premie.org itself, and not the forum attached to it. In the forum people speak for themselves, but the site should represent our reasons for dropping MJ, no matter where any of us stand on knowledge/meditation.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 1, 1998 at 16:31:54 (EST)
Poster: Brian
Email:
To: Bobby
Subject: Re: I get blissed out
Message:
John's post, like that of everyone else who doesn't walk on water, is of course "opionated". What frame of reference to you want him to use? common decency and honesty calls for you to identify yourself No, Bobby. That's you calling for it. I realize that you view yourself as a champion of those attributes, but you aren't the personification of them. If he resists, tie him up and deprogram him.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 1, 1998 at 16:32:52 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: Bobby
Subject: Re: I get blissed out
Message:
Bobby, I have a request. Could you leave your personal hatred for Jim Heller out of this? You see, Bobby, I, for one, really enjoy and find interesting your posts about your views and beliefs and I think you have a lot to contribute. Why get sidetracked from that? Besides, haven't you learned? Do you really think attacking Jim will get him to stop doing what you dislike so much? You should know by now, it has the exact opposite effect. And, you are wrong. People do have the right to "blast" (speech-wise) whomever they want to. That's called freedom of speech. And I very seriously doubt that Jim has been able to "force" you to do or believe anything. And getting pissed of is, after all, your choice.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 1, 1998 at 17:31:57 (EST)
Poster: Bobby
Email:
To: Brian
Subject: Reasons (Re: I get blissed out)
Message:
but the site should represent our reasons for dropping MJ, no matter where any of us stand on knowledge/meditation. Whose reasons are you talking about Brian? Yours? Jim's? Mine?
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Date: Thurs, Jan 1, 1998 at 17:42:38 (EST)
Poster: Bobby
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: I get blissed out
Message:
I was responding to the stand of the anonymous poster, a stand I find to be faulty. The anonymous poster celebrated Jim for his venom and ridicule. I don't like it and have something to say about it. Until Jim showed up in the last round and spouted his venom and ridicule, I never specified him by name, but still objected to the less-than-civil levels of discourse on this forum. Newcomers were speaking of the quality of discussion on this forum, some even thought this forum to be a "safe space" for sharing. They hadn't met Jim. Besides, haven't you learned? Do you really think attacking Jim will get him to stop doing what you dislike so much? I'm sorry. I really don't know what to do. The man really riles me. He starts the goddam fights. I don't know how I can walk away from his vicious personal insults. OK. I'm gonna quit with Jim. I wish the hell he would never come back, but I'm sure he will.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 1, 1998 at 18:39:46 (EST)
Poster: Bobby
Email:
To: Brian
Subject: Response (Re: I get blissed out)
Message:
John's post, like that of everyone else who doesn't walk on water, is of course 'opionated'. What frame of reference to you want him to use? I don't like ridicule and I don't like venom and I don't like those who make it a policy to practice these. I don't know why people let these sorts of modalities go unchallenged. I said: common decency and honesty calls for you to identify yourself No, Bobby. That's you calling for it. I realize that you view yourself as a champion of those attributes, but you aren't the personification of them. I don't go around ridiculing people. I don't make venomous remarks to people for their beliefs unless they themselves commit these actions. Then I attempt to speak out about them. If I am met with ridicule I get mad and express how I feel. How do you view venom and ridicule Brian? Do you think it's all fun and games? I don't. Should I just ignore and walk away? Or should I speak out? Rush Limbaugh refuses to have guests on his show. Why? Because they would show him to be the ass he is by their replies to what he says. On this forum we can talk back and present alternative views. I'm not perfect. I get angry. I get angry at different things than you do. You get angry at Maharaji and "what he did to you"... or whatever. I don't know how you feel about your anger. Is it something you want to understand? Or do you believe Maharaji deserves your anger period. I want to understand my anger. My anger is not just about the other person on this forum, but what is represented by that person. The other person represents to me the nature of a bully and a cruel, unfeeling person. This is personal to me. The other person makes personal, insulting remarks to me. I react.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 1, 1998 at 19:11:17 (EST)
Poster: An observer
Email:
To: Bobby
Subject: Re: Reasons (Re: I get blissed out)
Message:
Bobby hangs here to talk to himself about his precious spiritual ideas. Typical captive audience stuff. Gets offended and self-righteous when people tease him. ex-premies (if they once gave their all to Maharaji) are not interested in all that stuff anyway they just want to talk about their Maharaji problems. Jim nearly succeeded in driving him away. Mili is childlike but childish. The Guru he says he follows would dearly like him to quit posting. Mili thinks he has inner agya though. He is writing the rules to suit himself. He will stop when he gets a phone call.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 1, 1998 at 19:33:19 (EST)
Poster: The Good Doc
Email:
To: Bobby
Subject: Re: Reasons (Re: I get blissed out)
Message:
My dear fellow-human, I think you misunderstand me. I do NOT advocate the ridiculing of people, merely the meting out of appopriately dismissive treatment to ridiculous ideas. The proponents of said ridiculous ideas, do, of course, have an equal opportunity of replying in kind if they so desire. Goebbels is only dangerous when exclusively in charge of all information. Would ridiculing the ideas of Dr Goebbels be excessively hurtful to the poor little fascist bastard? (Sticks and stones etc...) The VERY IDEA of Guru Maharaj ji (as perfect master) is ridiculous, and dangerously so. That's my opinion. Ridicule it if you will. He messed up my life for years. If you don't like people expressing this kind of sentiment then why not go back to your own sad web-site full, as it is, of hippy-trippy mumbo-jumbo. Dr Goebbels wouldn't have been half so influential if free speech had been permitted. Ta ta, old bean PS> Who the hell are Rush Limburg and Jim Hellers? Some kind of Americans or something? Toodle-pip Dr JK
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Date: Thurs, Jan 1, 1998 at 20:25:09 (EST)
Poster: Bobby
Email:
To: An observer
Subject: Re: Reasons (Re: I get blissed out)
Message:
Another brave soul who lobs caustic remarks and does not have the personal integrity to leave a name for personal response.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 1, 1998 at 22:04:46 (EST)
Poster: Brian
Email:
To: Bobby
Subject: Re: Reasons (Re: I get blissed out)
Message:
but the site should represent our reasons for dropping MJ, no matter where any of us stand on knowledge/meditation. Whose reasons are you talking about Brian? Yours? Jim's? Mine? I've been reading and posting since Forum I. In that time, I've seen a consensus that you may or may not share. It boils down to something like this: "We got involved with MJ because we believed that doing so would make a positive difference both in our lives and the lives of the rest of humanity. We left when we realized that our efforts and self-sacrifice were accomplishing nothing more than his personal enrichment." Maybe that's a bit off the mark for this or that ex, but I believe it's a fair representation of the posts that I have seen by ex-premies. Now, you tell me. Is that view mine, Jim's, and/or yours? Frankly, I don't have the slightest idea what your specific views of MJ are, and am not even going to attempt trying to fill in the blanks for you when you choose not to do that for yourself or anyone else who has asked you here. As I said to you before, while you many like to spread out your cards and look at them all, I have to arrange them in some order and decide which will be on the top of the stack. I can't operate without making some personal decision, right or wrong, regarding what my position is on any particular subject. Most people can't either. They are Democrat or Republican. Premie or ex-premie. They either turn left, right, or go straight ahead. They pick a specific destination and manner of transportation, and then adjust on the way. You seem to be open to any view about MJ except one that is expressed as being personally held by someone you accuse as being opinionated. Neither I or anyone else can construct a web page devoted to maybe's and on-the-other-hands. We have to live, work, and travel to somewhere specific from a very specific here. You don't seem to want to sort ideas, just collect them. I don't do that and, outside of the premies who post, nobody else here seems to do that either. This forum is attached to a website about MJ. It's called ex-premie.org and is supported by people who believe that MJ is a fraud, not just maybe might be interpreted to be one. That is the position of the site. That is why I became as involved in posting here as I have. That is also why I volunteered to maintain that theme. And I will.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 1, 1998 at 22:54:45 (EST)
Poster: Bobby
Email:
To: Brian
Subject: Re: Reasons (Re: I get blissed out)
Message:
but the site should represent our reasons for dropping MJ, no matter where any of us stand on knowledge/meditation. Whose reasons are you talking about Brian? Yours? Jim's? Mine? I've been reading and posting since Forum I. In that time, I've seen a consensus that you may or may not share. It boils down to something like this: 'We got involved with MJ because we believed that doing so would make a positive difference both in our lives and the lives of the rest of humanity. We left when we realized that our efforts and self-sacrifice were accomplishing nothing more than his personal enrichment.' Maybe that's a bit off the mark for this or that ex, but I believe it's a fair representation of the posts that I have seen by ex-premies. Now, you tell me. Is that view mine, Jim's, and/or yours? Frankly, I don't have the slightest idea what your specific views of MJ are, and am not even going to attempt trying to fill in the blanks for you when you choose not to do that for yourself or anyone else who has asked you here. As I said to you before, while you many like to spread out your cards and look at them all, I have to arrange them in some order and decide which will be on the top of the stack. I can't operate without making some personal decision, right or wrong, regarding what my position is on any particular subject. Most people can't either. They are Democrat or Republican. Premie or ex-premie. They either turn left, right, or go straight ahead. They pick a specific destination and manner of transportation, and then adjust on the way. You seem to be open to any view about MJ except one that is expressed as being personally held by someone you accuse as being opinionated. Neither I or anyone else can construct a web page devoted to maybe's and on-the-other-hands. We have to live, work, and travel to somewhere specific from a very specific here. You don't seem to want to sort ideas, just collect them. I don't do that and, outside of the premies who post, nobody else here seems to do that either. This forum is attached to a website about MJ. It's called ex-premie.org and is supported by people who believe that MJ is a fraud, not just maybe might be interpreted to be one. That is the position of the site. That is why I became as involved in posting here as I have. That is also why I volunteered to maintain that theme. And I will. Thanks for the kind words and understanding Brian. Looks like you've been in touch with Heller once again and he's dealt you a new hand. A couple of jokers in there I'll bet. and am not even going to attempt trying to fill in the blanks for you when you choose not to do that for yourself or anyone else who has asked you here. That's a crock of shit. You just weren't noticing or didn't understand. Your own biases have made you blind. You've been on the phone with Heller. He's been feeding you information and you're gonna set up the site his way. Admit it.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 1, 1998 at 23:19:40 (EST)
Poster: Brian
Email:
To: Bobby
Subject: Re: Reasons (Re: I get blissed out)
Message:
Bobby: Thanks for the kind words and understanding Brian. Looks like you've been in touch with Heller once again and he's dealt you a new hand. A couple of jokers in there I'll bet. Bobby, when it comes to MJ you have taken a position of basically remaining neutral. I can respect that, but I don't share it. You may choose to find whatever you look for in my words. They're not meant as daggers. I can't find any kinder words than the ones that look right to me when I choose them. I don't know what dragons you're wrestling with, so I can't offer you understanding. I would root for you against whatever your problems are. That's about the best that I can offer. Brian: [I] am not even going to attempt trying to fill in the blanks for you when you choose not to do that for yourself or anyone else who has asked you here. Bobby: That's a crock of shit. You just weren't noticing or didn't understand. Your own biases have made you blind. You've been on the phone with Heller. He's been feeding you information and you're gonna set up the site his way. Admit it. Whatever. Your toes are everywhere, and the world intentionally steps down hard.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 1, 1998 at 23:50:23 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Bobby
Subject: Re: Reasons (Re: I get blissed out)
Message:
Bobby, I think that you are guessing wrong this time. I am one of the people who has been on the phone with Brian and he's going to set up the site HIS way, and, as he said, he hopes to reflect the views of the majority of ex-premies. To imply otherwise is somewhat insulting. I feel, as I did with David, that the webmaster of the site, who has to put an enormous amount of time and energy into the site, should have the final word on appearance and content. I didn't think Brian's message to you was so bad or insulting. It IS kind of hard to understand where you are coming from sometime, especially where Maharaji is concerned. I think I understand what your view is, but it is a hard position for people to understand, and you do appear to be straddling the fence at times. BTW, Brian did use the word "seem" when describing what he thought your views were, so if he guessed wrong, you should let him know. I thought he was reasonably respectful (unlike some of the people who were baiting you earlier, by the way.) I also think you might show him a little more respect. Sincerely, Katie
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Date: Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 00:24:04 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: An observer
Subject: Re: Reasons (Re: I get blissed out)
Message:
Bobby hangs here to talk to himself about his precious spiritual ideas. Typical captive audience stuff. Gets offended and self-righteous when people tease him. ex-premies (if they once gave their all to Maharaji) are not interested in all that stuff anyway they just want to talk about their Maharaji problems. Jim nearly succeeded in driving him away. One of the problems a lot of ex-premies have is an inability to relate to spirituality at all because we feel like we got so ripped off by Maharaji. Also, a lot of us were into some other spiritual trips before we ran across Maharaji. I really don't have a problem with people talking about spiritual ideas on the forum - I personally am interested in some of what is said, and I think some of the other ex-premies are too. Obviously, everyone is not going to be interested in every post on every thread, but there should be room for people to discuss "anything and everything to do with Maharaji and his followers". I think this includes spiritual ideas, among other things. I don't think it's just Bobby's trip.
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Date: Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 11:48:41 (EST)
Poster: Ol'
Email: bb
To: Bobby
Subject: Yeller (Re: I get blissed out)
Message:
what IS a modality? Did you have older brothers? It certainly would be challenging to confront rush on any of his issues, he has a well practiced and backed up set of opinions. I listened to him for a while until I realized I don't like politics. One thing about bill clinton though, amphetomines suit him well. When he became president the white house doctor wanted to know his medical files, he had been white house doctor for quite a while, he was quickly fired for his curiosity. BC is definately on uppers. All of rushs' ideas are not dumb, but most will be a moot point in a severe recession. So, you want gore over forbes? If you want to understand your anger, I would look to your environment when you were 2,3,4,5, and 6. Stuck in a house with a bitchy mother ruins many potentially happy children. Or having older brothers and sisters can be the worst curse of childhood. Or of course childhood is loaded with children that had it ok but are tormented by the ones that are already ruined. I have to keep checking on the school life of the kids for situations that crop up. But frankly, these kids are growingfaster than thier classmates so that is some measure of protection. In hartford the premie community was particularly vicious. Or maybe it was the norm, but once when I was being criricised by the community coordinator for my 'satsang' (which was always totally different because I promised myself not to say anything anyone else says) I looked at the guy and said to myself 'i love you' and from then till now no one can get me. Don't ask me why, but thats the way it is. Except maharji of course. But now I could probabaly be in the same room and be safe. See that effect you are talking about? Maharaji used that vulnerability as a weapon. He even defined the four levels of effect that his yelling has on a person; I will have to look it up, but if he keeps yelling after level three, you die.
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Date: Sat, Jan 3, 1998 at 20:56:57 (EST)
Poster: Doctor
Email:
To: JK
Subject: Doc a fraud (Re: I get blissed out)
Message:
My dear fellow-human, I think you misunderstand me. I do NOT advocate the ridiculing of people, merely the meting out of appopriately dismissive treatment to ridiculous ideas. The proponents of said ridiculous ideas, do, of course, have an equal opportunity of replying in kind if they so desire. Goebbels is only dangerous when exclusively in charge of all information. Would ridiculing the ideas of Dr Goebbels be excessively hurtful to the poor little fascist bastard? (Sticks and stones etc...) The VERY IDEA of Guru Maharaj ji (as perfect master) is ridiculous, and dangerously so. That's my opinion. Ridicule it if you will. He messed up my life for years. If you don't like people expressing this kind of sentiment then why not go back to your own sad web-site full, as it is, of hippy-trippy mumbo-jumbo. Dr Goebbels wouldn't have been half so influential if free speech had been permitted. Ta ta, old bean PS> Who the hell are Rush Limburg and Jim Hellers? Some kind of Americans or something? Toodle-pip Dr JK What kind of Doc isn't aware of Rush or Jim? You have the tone of a 50s Anti-Commi. "They messed my life. Now I'm a skin head." You are just a typical patient trying to escape for a ball game..
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Date: Mon, Jan 5, 1998 at 17:27:23 (EST)
Poster: Brother of 2-Ex's
Email: frostfinancial@ibm.net
To: Dr. J. Katshitanand
Subject: Re: I get blissed out
Message:
To you sir and all other ex's on the thread I would like to pose the following. Two of my younger brothers have been premies, J who experienced severe mental problems that finally culminated in suicide 9 years ago, and R who has led a rather normal existence for the last 20 years but recently had a complete nervous breakdown. My question is this: how many of you have 1)yourself, or 2)someone you know in DVL/EV experienced suicidal thoughts, psychotic episodes, dissociative feelings,etc. This is a serious request for information and I would appreciate particularly hearing about how you, or the person you know, were able to work through your problems, what kind of professional help was most effective, etc. If this forum is too public for your response, feel free to e-mail me with your thoughts. Thank you. -Jim
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Date: Wed, Dec 31, 1997 at 20:06:22 (EST)
Poster: nobody
Email: nobody@behere.now
To: Everyone
Subject: if
Message:
i got no beliefs in particular. what if the maharaji is god. maybe think that one through. he could be however he felt like being.
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Date: Wed, Dec 31, 1997 at 21:23:05 (EST)
Poster: Rick
Email: rtaraday@hotmail.com
To: nobody
Subject: Re: if
Message:
i got no beliefs in particular. what if the maharaji is god. maybe think that one through. he could be however he felt like being. What if any schmoe on the street was God? He/she could be however they felt like being. Of course that would be kind of useless because no one would recognize them.
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Date: Wed, Dec 31, 1997 at 21:26:26 (EST)
Poster: thou art that
Email:
To: Rick
Subject: Re: if....then (Re: if)
Message:
i got no beliefs in particular. what if the maharaji is god. maybe think that one through. he could be however he felt like being. What if any schmoe on the street was God? He/she could be however they felt like being. Of course that would be kind of useless because no one would recognize them. tat tvam asi
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Date: Wed, Dec 31, 1997 at 21:33:10 (EST)
Poster: nobody
Email:
To: Rick
Subject: Re: if
Message:
i got no beliefs in particular. what if the maharaji is god. maybe think that one through. he could be however he felt like being. What if any schmoe on the street was God? He/she could be however they felt like being. Of course that would be kind of useless because no one would recognize them. yeah but if he says he is that maybe he is, most shmoes dont dont you think, he would hae to be insane to do this if it isnt for real.
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Date: Wed, Dec 31, 1997 at 23:44:29 (EST)
Poster: Rick
Email: rtaraday@hotmail.com
To: nobody
Subject: Re: if
Message:
i got no beliefs in particular. what if the maharaji is god. maybe think that one through. he could be however he felt like being. What if any schmoe on the street was God? He/she could be however they felt like being. Of course that would be kind of useless because no one would recognize them. yeah but if he says he is that maybe he is, most shmoes dont dont you think, he would hae to be insane to do this if it isnt for real. You said it, not me.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 1, 1998 at 00:48:03 (EST)
Poster: Stoned on nectar
Email:
To: Everybody (exept Mili)
Subject: Re: if
Message:
Maharaji isn't God. George Burns is God - I saw it in a film.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 1, 1998 at 00:55:12 (EST)
Poster: Rick
Email: rtaraday@hotmail.com
To: Stoned on nectar
Subject: Re: if
Message:
Maharaji isn't God. George Burns is God - I saw it in a film. It was actually Maharaji pretending he was George Burns.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 1, 1998 at 04:22:31 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Stoned on nectar
Subject: Re: if
Message:
Maharaji isn't God. George Burns is God - I saw it in a film. I LOVED that line !!!
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Date: Wed, Dec 31, 1997 at 16:54:15 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Everyone
Subject: A Quote for Jim
Message:
You see, the problem is this: we identify in our experience a differentiation between what we do and what happens to us. We have a certain number of actions that we define as voluntary, and we feel in control of those. And then over against that, there is all those things that are involuntary. But the dividing line between these two is very arbitrary. Because for example, when you move your hand, you feel that you decide whether to open it or to close it. But then ask yourself how do you decide? When you decide to open your hand, do you first decide to decide? You don't, do you? You just decide, and how do you do that? And if you don't know how to do it, is it voluntary or involuntary? Let's consider breathing. You can feel that you breathe deliberately; yet, you don't control your breath. When you don't think about it, it goes on. Is it voluntary or involuntary? So, we come to have a very arbitrary definition of self. 'That much of my activity which I feel I do.' And that then doesn't include breathing most of the time; it doesn't include the heartbeats; it doesn't include the activity of the glands; it doesn't include digestion; it doesn't include how you shape your bones; circulate your blood. Do you or do you not do these things? Now if you get with yourself and you find out you are all of yourself, a very strange thing happens. You find out that your body knows that you are one with the universe. In other words, the so-called involuntary circulation of your blood is one continuous process with the stars shining. If you find out it's YOU who circulates your blood, you will at the same moment find out that you are shining the sun. Because your physical organism is one continuous process with everything else that's going on. Just as the waves are continuous with the ocean. Your body is continuous with the total energy system of the cosmos, and it's all you. Only you're playing the game that you're only this 'conscious' bit of it. But as I tried to explain, there are in physical reality no such thing as separate events. - Alan Watts
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Date: Wed, Dec 31, 1997 at 17:04:11 (EST)
Poster: I think he is
Email: bb
To: Mili
Subject: gone already (Re: A Quote for Jim)
Message:
Another wild and diverse offering from Millificent. One thing comes to mind, krishnas' staatement that "he who identifies with the divine..." I have come to think that lots of people do that in the hindu /buddist world and they sort of edge the superiour power out of thier lives by claiming to occupy "it" themselves. thereby robbing themselves of a relationship, walking through the life with the help of the creator or friend or whatever. By the way, isn't this sleep time for you?
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Date: Wed, Dec 31, 1997 at 17:08:46 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: I think he is
Subject: Re: gone already (Re: A Quote for Jim)
Message:
Another wild and diverse offering from Millificent. One thing comes to mind, krishnas' staatement that 'he who identifies with the divine...' I have come to think that lots of people do that in the hindu /buddist world and they sort of edge the superiour power out of thier lives by claiming to occupy 'it' themselves. thereby robbing themselves of a relationship, walking through the life with the help of the creator or friend or whatever. By the way, isn't this sleep time for you? Hey man, it's New Years Eve, I am stuck at home because it's crazy outside - fireworks exploding all over the place, drunks shooting off real guns... There are two gals in the other room having a chit-chat and watching TV. I am sorta superfluous, so here I am, indulging in this...
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Date: Wed, Dec 31, 1997 at 17:22:20 (EST)
Poster: Get them to mudwrestle
Email: bb
To: Mili
Subject: with you as the prize (Re: A Quote for Jim)
Message:
We get the gunfire in our inner cities, except for the suburban occasional murder. Fireworks go off every 5 minutes in hartford starting at 10 pm till midnight. Those girls are probably trying to outlast each other so one will be left to bring in the new year dawn with you alone. Surely they both want you. But they won't want to share you with us if they are like american women.
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Date: Wed, Dec 31, 1997 at 17:39:04 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Get them to mudwrestle
Subject: Re: with you as the prize (Re: A Quote for Jim)
Message:
We get the gunfire in our inner cities, except for the suburban occasional murder. Fireworks go off every 5 minutes in hartford starting at 10 pm till midnight. Those girls are probably trying to outlast each other so one will be left to bring in the new year dawn with you alone. Surely they both want you. But they won't want to share you with us if they are like american women. Bill, sorry to dissapoint you, but one of them is my mother, and the other is a 'friend' - meaning she likes to hang out with my mother more than with me, although she kinda thinks I'm cute! It's crazy here - I really don't like this time of the year because everyone is loaded up with guns, Kalashnikovs, hand grenades and even bazookas, and they shoot them off at every chance, even if it's just an ol' soccer game.
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Date: Wed, Dec 31, 1997 at 19:50:08 (EST)
Poster: Brian
Email:
To: Mili
Subject: Re: A Quote for Jim
Message:
Jesus, Mili. For a moment I thought you learned all them big words.
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Date: Wed, Dec 31, 1997 at 19:54:53 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Brian
Subject: Re: A Quote for Jim
Message:
Jesus, Mili. For a moment I thought you learned all them big words. My, my, my, now we're really getting nasty here, Brian. Did you understand any of those big words at all?
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Date: Wed, Dec 31, 1997 at 20:10:49 (EST)
Poster: Brian
Email:
To: Mili
Subject: Re: A Quote for Jim
Message:
Did you understand any of those big words at all? Sure. We're all born speaking fluent Gibberish. Alan Watts just wasn't multi-lingual is all. [Feed me another straight line, Mili. This is great.]
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Date: Wed, Dec 31, 1997 at 20:14:04 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Brian
Subject: Re: A Quote for Jim
Message:
Did you understand any of those big words at all? Sure. We're all born speaking fluent Gibberish. Alan Watts just wasn't multi-lingual is all. [Feed me another straight line, Mili. This is great.] Now I can see that your contempt of teachers and education worked both ways, Brian.
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Date: Wed, Dec 31, 1997 at 20:42:08 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Brian
Subject: Re: A Quote for Jim
Message:
Did you understand any of those big words at all? Sure. We're all born speaking fluent Gibberish. Alan Watts just wasn't multi-lingual is all. [Feed me another straight line, Mili. This is great.] Now I can see that your contempt of teachers and education worked both ways, Brian. Hmmm. No response for a long time. Did you understand what I meant, Brian? I meant that the teachers you had and the educational system, gave up on you. That's why you can now only understand (simple) one-liners.
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Date: Wed, Dec 31, 1997 at 21:22:22 (EST)
Poster: Sri Ramakrishna
Email:
To: jivanmukti
Subject: gone, gone, gone beyond.. bodhi svaha (Re: A Quote for Jim)
Message:
I have come to think that lots of people do that in the hindu /buddist world and they sort of edge the superiour power out of thier lives by claiming to occupy 'it' themselves. thereby robbing themselves of a relationship, walking through the life with the help of the creator or friend or whatever. So tell me, how would you like to talk about God..... with form, or without form?
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Date: Thurs, Jan 1, 1998 at 02:36:52 (EST)
Poster: Drunken
Email: bb
To: Mili
Subject: Dawn (Re: A Quote for Jim)
Message:
we will get like that once the economy goes down. We are so spoiled here it's really something. You must be sleeping by now even though it's morning there. There is a new guy here and he attended an event recently and found M to be uninspiring or something. But there is some things he said in LA that are realistic and interesting. I've been meaning to post some things includeing the LA stuff but it's so much typing I keep postponing it. And some old stuff too. So what is your new years resolution?
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Date: Thurs, Jan 1, 1998 at 03:53:23 (EST)
Poster: giving
Email: **
To: Sri Ramakrishna
Subject: it out (Re: A Quote for Jim)
Message:
I have come to think that lots of people do that in the hindu /buddist world and they sort of edge the superiour power out of thier lives by claiming to occupy 'it' themselves. thereby robbing themselves of a relationship, walking through the life with the help of the creator or friend or whatever. So tell me, how would you like to talk about God..... with form, or without form? Both, Maharaji sometimes said that those who want god in form are luckier because they can have devotion and the whole play of the perfect master. But when I say both today I am saying having the god power as invisible friend and helper and formless. And having the people as however they are as sort of god in form. Let me say that some other way, My wife asked me yesterday what my new years resolution was and it was; to see her and the kids (primarily) as the manifestations of the love of god for me, they are there for a short time for me to interact with and have maximum feeling for, and for me to love thier existance and thier qualities and know this is temporary and to sieze the day so to speak, and that to study god and the god and man issue, and the whole arena is a waste or distraction if it doesn't contribute directly to my primary reason for being, which is to feel love for and enjoy and appreciate and be attached completely in the maya of family and friends and the sponser of the show, the god. Watts was a great acid head, and the buddists and hindus and the rest are great somethings, but if it distracts me and alienates me from the act of directly loving those around me, if it puts me in a cosmic head space, if I end up always looking around for insights in understanding, If it allures me with promises of a greater experience of something that leaves me less connected to those around me and the flowing love, Then when my time is up I'll bet I go; If I only had more time with this person or that person, If I had only seen all the little moments that were there to have a beautiful time with this person or that person, if I was only just there, just feeling love, just loving the moment, just loving the persons' uniqueness, just appreciating the fact that they actually cared for me and loved me. blather,blather. Well, it went something like that. To not adore the god so much as to really get into the human scene I am really in. The whole promise keeper thing is probably an attempt at behaviour control and change to get guys to connect in some way to a god viewpoint to enable them to be better in the rest of the areas of thier life. That is probably more on the mark than those that proclaim 'cosmic-conciousness' and 'identifying with the divine' and worship and absorption by what ever leader and or religion. Those that are around you and mean the most to your heart get put in some status that is a curse and blindness to your own heart. Sure they are limited, sure they have problems, sure, they cause me chores and work in life and given the opportunity, they might freak me out by doing god knows what, but if I team up with the power, and ask for a full feeling inside so that I can enrich the moment, it can happen. That seems to be the game. Enrich your moments with the good feeling, and the power gets it recognition in that game, gets to play a part with it's creation in it's life, gets to sort of prove itself in that way, gets to become fond of a character that is interacting with it, gets to pick that character out of the death storage location later and say, how about another lifetime to have fun you and me, how about rediscovering our simple friendship once again, how about you love those around you and me too, how about shareing rich feelings, really makeing the most out of your life by just feeling a lot of heart and giving it out.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 1, 1998 at 04:26:58 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Drunken
Subject: Re: Dawn (Re: A Quote for Jim)
Message:
we will get like that once the economy goes down. We are so spoiled here it's really something. You must be sleeping by now even though it's morning there. There is a new guy here and he attended an event recently and found M to be uninspiring or something. But there is some things he said in LA that are realistic and interesting. I've been meaning to post some things includeing the LA stuff but it's so much typing I keep postponing it. And some old stuff too. So what is your new years resolution? My New Year's Resolution? It's this: to get out of the house and hit the mountains more. There is some awesome mountain-climbing and hiking in Croatia, especially in the area where the continental climate meets the Adriatic sea. There is a fantastic mountain range right in between. You can spend weeks roaming this incredible countryside.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 1, 1998 at 11:30:00 (EST)
Poster: Nigel
Email:
To: Mili
Subject: Re: A Quote for Jim
Message:
You see, the problem is this: we identify in our experience a differentiation between what we do and what happens to us. We have a certain number of actions that we define as voluntary, and we feel in control of those. And then over against that, there is all those things that are involuntary. But the dividing line between these two is very arbitrary. Because for example, when you move your hand, you feel that you decide whether to open it or to close it. But then ask yourself how do you decide? When you decide to open your hand, do you first decide to decide? You don't, do you? You just decide, and how do you do that? And if you don't know how to do it, is it voluntary or involuntary? Let's consider breathing. You can feel that you breathe deliberately; yet, you don't control your breath. When you don't think about it, it goes on. Is it voluntary or involuntary? So, we come to have a very arbitrary definition of self. 'That much of my activity which I feel I do.' And that then doesn't include breathing most of the time; it doesn't include the heartbeats; it doesn't include the activity of the glands; it doesn't include digestion; it doesn't include how you shape your bones; circulate your blood. Do you or do you not do these things? Now if you get with yourself and you find out you are all of yourself, a very strange thing happens. You find out that your body knows that you are one with the universe. In other words, the so-called involuntary circulation of your blood is one continuous process with the stars shining. If you find out it's YOU who circulates your blood, you will at the same moment find out that you are shining the sun. Because your physical organism is one continuous process with everything else that's going on. Just as the waves are continuous with the ocean. Your body is continuous with the total energy system of the cosmos, and it's all you. Only you're playing the game that you're only this 'conscious' bit of it. But as I tried to explain, there are in physical reality no such thing as separate events. - Alan Watts And my brain just seems to automatically kinda know when its reading psuedoscientific bollocks. Spooky eh?
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Date: Thurs, Jan 1, 1998 at 11:30:51 (EST)
Poster: promise keepers
Email:
To: giving
Subject: Re: it out (Re: A Quote for Jim)
Message:
The whole promise keeper thing is probably an attempt at behaviour control and change to get guys to connect in some way to a god viewpoint to enable them to be better in the rest of the areas of thier life.
click here for message on Promise Keepers
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Date: Thurs, Jan 1, 1998 at 12:20:16 (EST)
Poster: Bobby
Email:
To: Bill
Subject: a call for expressions without judgment (Re: A Quote for Jim)
Message:
You know Bill, I really enjoy reading some of your expressions. Your wife is involved in kind actions (which I really admire), and you communicate ranges of interesting considerations. However, I have a hard time with some of your judgmental statements. Some of us have had different experiences than you. Please allow for different experiences and perspectives.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 1, 1998 at 13:36:18 (EST)
Poster: sex in the
Email: bb
To: promise keepers
Subject: gap (Re: A Quote for Jim)
Message:
Great one, my sister said that if I was going to be more christian like I would have to start considering who to have an affair with. And I have to get pissed off more often.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 1, 1998 at 13:53:20 (EST)
Poster: fuller
Email: bobby
To: Bobby
Subject: expressions (Re: A Quote for Jim)
Message:
Sure, but as I have been strangleing my own deepest held beliefs I get ornery at all freshly presented beliefs that call for my acceptance. Don't fergit, sometimes you don't actually mention what it is about different guys you like, you mention them in a approving way but keep your posts too short so that you don't unfurl the main ideas these guys say that impress you. You kind of figure we are up to speed on what you just read when that usually isn't the case. R das comes to mind, You read a book but only talked about him. Not his best borrowed ideas. Or ram dass, he drove me nuts on a cassette I heard a couple times, yet I bet he came out with some good stuff, but when you raise his name up for a salute, it came without any of his ideas that might have gained a yes comment. He himself is nothing special, and maharaji was a hell of a leader act to follow. If maharaji is dethroned, it's not likely anyone else is going to be given elevated status around here. I didn't know how to say that before, and maybe that is not even done well, but I have to go.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 1, 1998 at 14:17:27 (EST)
Poster: Santa
Email:
To: the faithful
Subject: And now... a word from our sponsors (Re: A Quote for Jim)
Message:
Here's another one. A little late, but more than relevant.
Season's Greetings
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Date: Thurs, Jan 1, 1998 at 15:27:16 (EST)
Poster: Bobby
Email:
To: Bill Burke
Subject: Re: expressions (Re: A Quote for Jim)
Message:
Sure, but as I have been strangleing my own deepest held beliefs I get ornery at all freshly presented beliefs that call for my acceptance. OK. I hear you. And I guess it's strange to me to hear you speak of "deepest held beliefs". At least some are different than mine. The source of a lot of the anger on this forum seems to involve people's deepest held beliefs. I know that I've put a lot of time, effort and energy into exploring, coming to terms with, and in some cases restructuring my own deepest held beliefs. Deepest held beliefs are like real territory. We get ornery when people trespass or barge in uninvited. I think you gotta be careful with folks' personal space. Personal space is culturally dependent. White man culture has very strict rules when it comes to personal space.
Don't fergit, sometimes you don't actually mention what it is about different guys you like, you mention them in a approving way but keep your posts too short so that you don't unfurl the main ideas these guys say that impress you. Yes, sorry. I have had a habit of assuming that others are familiar with the modalities and frames of reference that I am. I've been working on correcting this misperception over the years. However, it is a lot of effort to effectively present ideas so more people understand. And sometimes, when I do put a lot of effort in, it seems that nobody is interested.
You kind of figure we are up to speed on what you just read when that usually isn't the case. R das comes to mind, You read a book but only talked about him. Not his best borrowed ideas. I assume you mean Bhagavan Das. Why do you qualify your statement by saying "best borrowed ideas. What do you mean by "borrowed"?
Or ram dass, he drove me nuts on a cassette I heard a couple times, yet I bet he came out with some good stuff, but when you raise his name up for a salute, it came without any of his ideas that might have gained a yes comment. Here you seem to be doing the same thing you accuse me of doing. What did Ram Dass say that "drove you nuts"? What was the "good stuff"? Ram Dass has said a whole lot over the years. A whole lot. As far as speaking specifically about what Ram Dass says to me, I gave some lead-ins in my mention of him which I would be happy to elaborate upon. However, no one asked for clarification. I don't want to proselytize. I don't want to bore anyone. I don't want to spend time posting information that people are not interested in. However, I am always interested, even happy, to discuss what is significant, engaging and interesting to me. It is important for me to express the truth as I see it. I see this as everyone's right and I wish more folks would take the opportunity. It is healthy to express the truth of what one perceives. Unfortunately, some that attempt to express what they perceive are met with attacks, sometimes even vicious attacks. To me this is not proper.
He himself is nothing special, and maharaji was a hell of a leader act to follow. I think Ram Dass has done a lot of good for a lot of people. Besides his lectures and books, Ram Dass is one of the co-founders of Seva, an organization that has done very beautiful service for thousands and thousands. One of Seva's original purpose was to provide medical care for a congenital blindness condition prevalent in Nepal. Seva is directly responsible for restoring sight to many, many people. When you say Maharaji, are you speaking of Prempal Rawat, or Neem Karoli? What do you know of Neem Karoli?
If maharaji is dethroned, it's not likely anyone else is going to be given elevated status around here. Why does someone have to be given "elevated status"? It seems to me that you assume that you need to worship some incarnation of God, "out there". I don't agree, at least not in the ways that you have stated in your posts.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 1, 1998 at 16:16:06 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: promise keepers
Subject: Re: it out (Re: A Quote for Jim)
Message:
The whole promise keeper thing is probably an attempt at behaviour control and change to get guys to connect in some way to a god viewpoint to enable them to be better in the rest of the areas of thier life. click here for message on Promise Keepers Hi, Bill. I actually have a brother-in-law who is a member of the Promise Keepers. He is a very nice guy, probably the "perfect" wife and father you could imagine. The last person who needs to be told to be devoted to his family. But he is also incredibly narrow-minded, so unlike my sister (his wife). I sometimes wonder how they possibly get along, but they seem to. I disagree with a lot the Promise Keepers stand for, like male dominance of the family and that old, christian, partriarchal viewpoint. I guess I believe in equality of people, and I don't think the Promise Keepers do. I also think there is an attempt to turn the movement into a political one and I think that's very dangerous, especially if you happen to be female, gay, a single parent, non-christian, someone who has ever had an abortion, an athiest or agnostic, believe in the separation of church and state, someone who doesn'tt want to live in a theocracy, or someone who values personal expression. Plus the leaders, whether they stand for the opinions of the members, are wildly homophobic and sexist and actively promote intolerance. That guy McCarthy comes to mind. He just wrote a book in which he confesses to ignoring his wife (because of football and then because of the Promise Keepers), to the point where she almost committed suicide. He used to be football coach at Colorado and was one of the driving forces behind that hateful Amendment 2 in Colorado which, fortunately was declared unconstitutional by the Supreme Court in 1996. I saw that Tom Tomorrow cartoon when it appeared in The Nation a few weeks ago. It was great. Bill, you sound like you participate in some Christian Men's group. Is it related to the Promise Keepers? JW
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Date: Wed, Dec 31, 1997 at 16:12:40 (EST)
Poster: John Cavad
Email: La La Land@USA.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Mili leaves: Your Vote Counts?
Message:
Should Mili ever again sign onto this forum, let alone post a single word to it? Please cast your vote here: 1. John Cavad - I vote that he stays and invites all his friends too.
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Date: Wed, Dec 31, 1997 at 16:54:47 (EST)
Poster: rock the vote
Email: bb
To: John Cavad
Subject: Re: Mili leaves: Your Vote Counts?
Message:
Mili is far to independent to go by a vote of others. But none the less, I say he stays. And maybe we can have a new years resolution to not tick bobby off.
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Date: Wed, Dec 31, 1997 at 19:49:59 (EST)
Poster: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net
To: John Cavad
Subject: Re: Mili leaves: Your Vote Counts?
Message:
I vote that Mili stay, although I know that neither yea or nay votes would keep him away. He does add that amusing premie view to everything. Michael
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Date: Wed, Dec 31, 1997 at 21:25:17 (EST)
Poster: Bobby
Email:
To: Happy New Year
Subject: Everyone leaves (Re: Mili leaves: Your Vote Counts? )
Message:
Mili is far to independent to go by a vote of others. But none the less, I say he stays. And maybe we can have a new years resolution to not tick bobby off. Cheers
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Date: Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 00:11:53 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: John Cavad
Subject: Re: Mili leaves: Your Vote Counts?
Message:
I am pretty angry with Mili right at the moment, due to some insensitive and ill-considered remarkes he made on the other forum. However, I sometimes enjoy having him around, and he seems to like hanging out here. Most of the time, that is. No more long quotes, though, Mili - please? Just post them on your web site, so we can look at them there if we're interested. (BTW, I hope all this validation by ex-premies doesn't make you quit the forum in disgust.)
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Date: Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 14:50:06 (EST)
Poster: John K.
Email:
To: Katie
Subject: Re: Mili leaves: Your Vote Counts?
Message:
Katie: What other forum are you talking about?
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Date: Fri, Jan 2, 1998 at 17:55:53 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email:
To: John K.
Subject: Re: Mili leaves: Your Vote Counts?
Message:
Katie: What other forum are you talking about? The one that just got archived, or is in the process of getting archived.
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Date: Wed, Dec 31, 1997 at 14:58:24 (EST)
Poster: John Cavad
Email:
To: Everyone
Subject: Love, Peace and Happiness
Message:
Happy New Year to everyone around the world. I think my New Year's Resolution is to GET OFF THIS FORUM. I've only been on it a few weeks and find myself becoming addicted to the creative writing, the fighting, the denial, the rudeness, the kindness, and the distinguished form of entertainment you all bring to it. Thanks for all the fun!!!
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Date: Wed, Dec 31, 1997 at 15:39:56 (EST)
Poster: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net
To: John Cavad
Subject: Re: Love, Peace and Happiness
Message:
Happy New Year to you and all, John! I don't make New Year's resolutions, so I don't have to worry about breaking them. I do want to thank everyone for their contributions to this site, and thanks to D@vid for all his work. All glories to the new perfect webmaster and the burden he had now taken on. Regards, Michael
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Date: Wed, Dec 31, 1997 at 16:44:15 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: John Cavad
Subject: Re: Love, Peace and Happiness
Message:
Another year gone. Time flies. Do you know that 1998 is the year 13986 in dog years? Where has the time gone?
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Date: Wed, Dec 31, 1997 at 16:47:34 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: JW
Subject: Re: Love, Peace and Happiness
Message:
Another year gone. Time flies. Do you know that 1998 is the year 13986 in dog years? Where has the time gone? This is the first day of the rest of your life!
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Date: Wed, Dec 31, 1997 at 16:56:25 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: Mili
Subject: Re: Love, Peace and Happiness
Message:
This is the first day of the rest of your life! Would you please hold those words so I can stitch them onto a sampler? I also have "a stitch in time saves nine," "love means you never have to say you're sorry," and "Never put off until tomorrow what you can do today."
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Date: Wed, Dec 31, 1997 at 19:45:28 (EST)
Poster: Brian
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: Love, Peace and Happiness
Message:
This is the first day of the rest of your life! Would you please hold those words so I can stitch them onto a sampler? I also have 'a stitch in time saves nine,' 'love means you never have to say you're sorry,' and 'Never put off until tomorrow what you can do today.' JW, I'm shocked! Does this mean you've thrown out your "Never leave room in your mind for doubt" and "Never delay in attending satsang" pillows? You know they're collector's items now don't you? Just like those cool Krishna pajamas with the fuzzy little lotus feet.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 8, 1998 at 23:16:59 (EST)
Poster: And On Anand Ji
Email: aoa
To: --------------
Subject: Re: Love, Peace and Happiness -- It is the will of Landru (NO TEXT) (Re: Love, Peace and Happiness)
Message:
x
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Date: Wed, Dec 31, 1997 at 14:57:43 (EST)
Poster: John Cavad
Email:
To: Everyone
Subject: Love, Pease and Happiness
Message:
Happy New Year to everyone around the world. I think my New Year's Resolution is to GET OFF THIS FORUM. I've only been on it a few weeks and find myself becoming addicted to the creative writing, the fighting, the denial, the rudeness, the kindness, and the distinguished form of entertainment you all bring to it. Thanks for all the fun!!!
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Date: Wed, Dec 31, 1997 at 17:24:56 (EST)
Poster: Peas?
Email: bb
To: John Cavad
Subject: and q's (Re: Love, Pease and Happiness)
Message:
Oh just stick around. There are a few surprises in store.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 1, 1998 at 02:43:19 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: John Cavad
Subject: Re: Love, Pease and Happiness
Message:
Happy New Year to everyone around the world. I think my New Year's Resolution is to GET OFF THIS FORUM. I've only been on it a few weeks and find myself becoming addicted to the creative writing, the fighting, the denial, the rudeness, the kindness, and the distinguished form of entertainment you all bring to it. Thanks for all the fun!!! Dear John C. - I hope you can hang in here and don't have to join Ex-Premies Anomymous, because I have really liked your contributions to the forum. And since the title of this thread reminded me of it, to everyone else [JW, Brian (shri webmaster), Bobby, Jim, Mike, David Stirling, Sir David, Seymour, bBill, Michael (Mickey the P), Mili, John K., Deena, op, CD, Anon, LouAnn, Scott, and everyone else who I am unkindly forgetting], don't forget to eat your black-eyed peas today for a whole year of good luck (one black-eyed pea eaten = one day of good luck, or so they say anyway. Us transplanted southerners don't take any chances). Happy new year! Katie
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Date: Thurs, Jan 1, 1998 at 02:46:34 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Rick
Subject: P.S. Peas (Re: Love, Pease and Happiness)
Message:
I knew I was forgetting someone, whose posts I really value: Happy new year, Rick! Don't forget to eat those black-eyed peas.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 1, 1998 at 11:15:45 (EST)
Poster: Rick
Email: rtaraday@hotmail.com
To: Katie
Subject: Re: P.S. Peas (Re: Love, Pease and Happiness)
Message:
I knew I was forgetting someone, whose posts I really value: Happy new year, Rick! Don't forget to eat those black-eyed peas. Why thank you so much, Katie. As the other boys say, 'that's so Katie of you' :) Happy New Year to you. Never thought I'd see '98. And you don't forget to eat your matzoh.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 1, 1998 at 12:14:11 (EST)
Poster: John Cavad
Email:
To: Katie
Subject: Re: Love, Pease and Happiness
Message:
Thank you Katie, for being so thoughtful and kind to a lost soul like me. OK, I'll stick around for awhile
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Date: Thurs, Jan 1, 1998 at 12:36:09 (EST)
Poster: Seymour Peas
Email: seymour_t@rocketmail.com
To: Katie
Subject: Re: Love, Pease and Happiness
Message:
Happy New Year to All from me. John,I agree with Katie in hoping you continue to contribute. I wish I had more time to join in the debate but I always try and read the postings. May it all continue into 1998. I am off out now to buy some black eyed peas.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 1, 1998 at 23:59:11 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Rick & Johnny
Subject: Re: P.S. Peas (Re: Love, Pease and Happiness)
Message:
Why thank you so much, Katie. As the other boys say, 'that's so Katie of you' :) Happy New Year to you. Never thought I'd see '98. And you don't forget to eat your matzoh. Thanks, Rick & Johnny, I know you all mean well, but maybe I should change my name or something. How would you all like to get a reputation for being "nice"? Huh? P.S. to Rick - whats with this matzoh stuff? On New Years?
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Date: Wed, Jan 7, 1998 at 11:43:02 (EST)
Poster: And On Anand Ji
Email: aoa
To: Katie
Subject: TEST - IGNORE - (was Re: P.S. Peas) (Re: Love, Pease and Happiness)
Message:
one two three four bubble gum ji

Bubble Gum Ji
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Date: Wed, Dec 31, 1997 at 14:42:36 (EST)
Poster: John Cavad
Email:
To: Everyone
Subject: No More Darshan?
Message:
Why has darshan stopped or slowed down in the western world? When?
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Date: Wed, Dec 31, 1997 at 15:21:44 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: John Cavad
Subject: Re: No More Darshan?
Message:
DON'T ANSWER THIS!! John's gone...... or so he says.... John, I know the feeling. I, too, have to leave again. I'm bakc in Vancouver for the the next month. I don't know about you but I'll fall back into lurking. That's easy. It's only when you express yourself here that you get completely tied in. Well, that's the same with any dialogue, I'm sure. This one just never stops. Good luck in your new stewardship, Brian. May you have enough visitors to keep thgings interesting but not enough to create archiving problems. If things get out of hand, you can always ask Mili for help. (Recall his efforts on Harlan's page where he masterfully barred not just ex's from posting there but even premies from discussing things). It seems that Chris will now take on a role of Guardian against Simplistic Expression. Must be some kind of penance for all of his evasive, irrelevant inanities of the past many months. Good, Chris, good for you. [And a calandear day in the history of evolution, I'm sure]. I'll also be anxious to see if OP, fair-minded OP who wouldn't want to unduly influence anyone, will ask her children if they want to chat with a few ex's before taking the plunge into a life-long river of donations.
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Date: Wed, Dec 31, 1997 at 16:00:31 (EST)
Poster: John Cavad
Email:
To: Jim
Subject: Re: No More Darshan?
Message:
No, Jim. I'm still here. It's not New Years yet!????? I admit it, "Hello, my name is John, and I am a premie!" As long as I live I'll always be a premie. So I must be very careful not to take in even a single glass of Satsang. Otherwise, I'll be hooked all over again....NOT! Fooled you, all you blissful premies. I ain't never coming back!!!
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Date: Wed, Dec 31, 1997 at 16:34:45 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: John Cavad
Subject: Re: No More Darshan?
Message:
Why has darshan stopped or slowed down in the western world? When? I asked this same question months ago and OP posted a long definitive treatise on the fact that since about 1985 Maharaji didn't give darshan anymore because it was unrelatable to westerners. So darhan was caput, over, dead, finished, at least in the West! She did say that Maharaji would give darshan sometimes in India where it has a different cultural connotation and where people don't give it the "worship" meaning it has in the West. She didn't explain why darshan USED to be okay in the 70s and 80s, nor why M did it probably hundreds of times in the West previously, but that is to be expected in Maharaji's world, in which he never has to explain anything to anyone and where M not only doesn't have to say he's sorry, he's not. So, after this unequivocal statement, from OP, you can imagine my surprise when I heard from a premie who was actually there, that Maharaji gave darshan to thousands of western premies at the festival in September of this year in that Amaroo place in Australia. Mr. Ex also tells us he has, in the recent past, given darshan in about 6 other countries. To my knowledge he hasn't done it in North America or Europe in the recent past, but keep your eyes open. When I asked OP about this, she responded in a fashion that could only be described as gobblydigook, doubletalk, even for her. I think he's giving darshan again, because he needs money and darshan raises lots of money, and because he needs psychological reinforcement in his own mind that he actually is a deity worthy of being worshipped. And having your feet kissed by thousands of people tends to do that to people. I think he is reticent to give darshan in other than remote locations, like that Australian outback, because of the damage it would do to his PR campaign to portray himself as a meditation teacher, and not the lord of the universe that he used to be, if it was publicized that he has thousands of people line up to kiss his feet. Those two things just don't jive for anyone with a brain. But we'll see what happens! JW
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Date: Wed, Dec 31, 1997 at 18:47:00 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Jim
Subject: Re: No More Darshan?
Message:
DON'T ANSWER THIS!! John's gone...... or so he says.... John, I know the feeling. I, too, have to leave again. I'm bakc in Vancouver for the the next month. I don't know about you but I'll fall back into lurking. That's easy. It's only when you express yourself here that you get completely tied in. Well, that's the same with any dialogue, I'm sure. This one just never stops. Good luck in your new stewardship, Brian. May you have enough visitors to keep thgings interesting but not enough to create archiving problems. If things get out of hand, you can always ask Mili for help. (Recall his efforts on Harlan's page where he masterfully barred not just ex's from posting there but even premies from discussing things). It seems that Chris will now take on a role of Guardian against Simplistic Expression. Must be some kind of penance for all of his evasive, irrelevant inanities of the past many months. Good, Chris, good for you. [And a calandear day in the history of evolution, I'm sure]. I'll also be anxious to see if OP, fair-minded OP who wouldn't want to unduly influence anyone, will ask her children if they want to chat with a few ex's before taking the plunge into a life-long river of donations. I think the greatest punishment for Jim is that he has to read, hell, THINK this shit before anyone else does.
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Date: Wed, Dec 31, 1997 at 14:39:19 (EST)
Poster: Gregg
Email: gpainter@dnvr.uswest.net
To: Everyone
Subject: Greetings
Message:
Howdy. I'm an ex-premie who stumbled upon this cyberplace; I'm seeing if this works. Hello! can you hear me! Sorry for shouting! I saw the Guru a coupla months ago, after not having seen him for ten or twenty years. It was nice to sit down and meditate for an hour (although I don't use Hindu techniques any more), but as for Maharaj Ji (and most especially his speechmaking), I was quite underwhelmed.
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Date: Wed, Dec 31, 1997 at 14:47:58 (EST)
Poster: John Cavad
Email:
To: Gregg
Subject: Re: Greetings
Message:
Hi, Gregg, I hear you. Welcome to the first and only forum for ex-premies. Tell us more about yourself. Let me add a warning that this forum can be a bit violent at times. Nevertheless, try to read all the web pages on the topic (e.g. Journeys, etc.) as you get time. There's lots of great stuff on here.
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Date: Wed, Dec 31, 1997 at 14:56:15 (EST)
Poster: Brian
Email:
To: Gregg
Subject: Re: Greetings
Message:
Welcome, Gregg. We just reset the forum, as the number of posts can pile up fast. There are premies and ex's posting here, but the fun is sorting them out :) The fur can fly at times, but it's usually pretty interesting reading. Premies had a site up until about a month ago - premie.org was taken down due to pressure from the top (Not MJ, of course. He LOVES his devotees, huh Mili?). So now they show up here to defend him. What drew you to, and drove you away from the Lotus Feet? Did you spend any time in the ashram system?
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Date: Wed, Dec 31, 1997 at 17:07:29 (EST)
Poster: greetings
Email: bb
To: Gregg
Subject: and happy new year (Re: Greetings)
Message:
did you paint at deca? Or is that your last name? How far back do you go? Was that the LA event?
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Date: Thurs, Jan 8, 1998 at 09:12:58 (EST)
Poster: test
Email:
To: test
Subject: Re:test ignore (Re: Greetings)
Message:

2. The above position of MJ was not popular with me, because I personally hated living in the ashrams because, among other things,

1.) You couldn't have sex (actually this is reasons 1-10);
2.) You couldn't own anything and had no freedom to do anything you like;
3.) You had no privacy;
4.) You were cut off from your family;
5.) You couldn't have a career, no matter how much you were interested in having one,
6.) You had to be vulnerable to the whims of several mentally deranged and sadistic Mahatmas and Initiators who came through on a regular basis (Fakiranand (bang bang), Parlokanand (who sexually molested little boys while giving divine knowledge on the side), and others I won't mention except to say they were some of the most miserable and freaked-out people I have ever met, and
7.) You had to live with at least a few generally annoying people. Although I hated living there, I stayed because I wanted to follow his directions and devote myself to him, on every level, not because I was devoted to the ashram.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 8, 1998 at 09:16:43 (EST)
Poster: test
Email:
To: test
Subject: Re: Re:test ignore (Re: Greetings)
Message:

Before you start calling ME an asshole consider what I'm reacting to. I'm disgusted, make that DISGUSTED, with premies who feel it's their service to Maharaji to protect him at all costs even if it means twisting the truth as necessary. I lived in the ashram for eight years of my life man! That's no small amount of time to be completely dependent on a guru's vision only to have him years later deny he ever said all that funnelled me into his little fun house to begin with. Who the fuck are you to smirk away that reality?


Care to speculate on how many couples Maharaji broke up? How many people he pressured to give up their vain, ego loves and just serve him? We're talking families with kids too sometimes. Oh, I know, he'd say one thing sometimes and sometimes the opposite. Sometimes he WOULD say that raising a family could be service, but the implication was that it was service only if you couldn't get out of it somehow. He sure didn't encourage unencumbered premies to hook up with each other and ESPECIALLY hated it when ashram premies did the human thing.



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Date: Thurs, Jan 8, 1998 at 16:37:22 (EST)
Poster: And On Anand Ji
Email: aoa
To: ---------
Subject: Re:test ignore (Re: Greetings)
Message:
I just wanted to do a little
Embedded html check here.
Did you know that the document source for these individual postings show what kind of computer the person used to post with? (e.g. which web browser and platform).
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