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Ex-Premie.Org |
Forum II Archive #
3 |
From:
Dec 31, 1997 |
To:
Jan 20, 1998 |
Page:
3
Of:
5 |
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John Cavad -:- Message to Nigel -:- Tues, Jan 6, 1998 at 12:48:30 (EST)
___Nigel -:- Re: Message to Nigel -:- Tues, Jan 6, 1998 at 15:34:44 (EST)
___Nigel -:- Re: Message to Nigel -:- Wed, Jan 7, 1998 at 17:23:51 (EST)
___John -:- Re: Message to Nigel -:- Wed, Jan 7, 1998 at 18:09:16 (EST)
___And On Anand Ji -:- Re: Message to Nigel -:- Thurs, Jan 8, 1998 at 01:49:05 (EST)
___concerned party -:- Re: Message to Nigel -:- Thurs, Jan 8, 1998 at 02:58:21 (EST)
___And On Anand Ji -:- Re: Message to Nigel -:- Thurs, Jan 8, 1998 at 03:31:56 (EST)
___the needle or -:- the nose -:- Thurs, Jan 8, 1998 at 11:30:51 (EST)
___bftb -:- Re: the nose -:- Thurs, Jan 8, 1998 at 14:16:10 (EST)
___And On Anand Ji -:- Re: the nose -:- Thurs, Jan 8, 1998 at 16:17:42 (EST)
___spare -:- change -:- Thurs, Jan 8, 1998 at 16:20:52 (EST)
___Nigel -:- Re: Message to Nigel -:- Thurs, Jan 8, 1998 at 17:14:21 (EST)
___Nigel -:- Re: Message to Nigel -:- Thurs, Jan 8, 1998 at 18:54:05 (EST)
___And On Anand Ji -:- Re: Message to Nigel -:- Thurs, Jan 8, 1998 at 20:06:23 (EST)
___And On Anand Ji -:- Update (was "Re: Message to Nigel") -:- Thurs, Jan 15, 1998 at 01:55:51 (EST)
Andrew -:- On closure -:- Mon, Jan 5, 1998 at 23:15:32 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: On closure -:- Tues, Jan 6, 1998 at 00:47:56 (EST)
___enjoy your -:- kids -:- Tues, Jan 6, 1998 at 00:57:56 (EST)
___Rick -:- Re: On closure -:- Tues, Jan 6, 1998 at 01:04:18 (EST)
___@gnes @gony @unt -:- Re: On closure -:- Tues, Jan 6, 1998 at 04:04:08 (EST)
___another bystander -:- The vultures swarm -:- Tues, Jan 6, 1998 at 07:24:54 (EST)
___Brian -:- Re: The vultures swarm -:- Tues, Jan 6, 1998 at 08:44:58 (EST)
___John K. -:- Re: The vultures swarm -:- Tues, Jan 6, 1998 at 08:59:50 (EST)
___another bystander -:- Re: The vultures swarm -:- Tues, Jan 6, 1998 at 09:17:22 (EST)
___John K -:- Re: On closure -:- Tues, Jan 6, 1998 at 09:58:39 (EST)
___Sir David -:- Re: On closure -:- Tues, Jan 6, 1998 at 10:00:28 (EST)
___A -:- Re: On closure -:- Tues, Jan 6, 1998 at 10:18:48 (EST)
___John K. -:- Re: On closure -:- Tues, Jan 6, 1998 at 10:42:42 (EST)
___John Cavad -:- Re: On closure -:- Tues, Jan 6, 1998 at 10:52:03 (EST)
___Sir David -:- Re: On closure -:- Tues, Jan 6, 1998 at 11:22:54 (EST)
___Mr Ex -:- Re: On closure -:- Tues, Jan 6, 1998 at 11:54:29 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: On closure -:- Tues, Jan 6, 1998 at 19:48:19 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: The vultures swarm -:- Tues, Jan 6, 1998 at 19:53:35 (EST)
___Sir David -:- Re: On closure -:- Tues, Jan 6, 1998 at 20:18:07 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: On closure -:- Tues, Jan 6, 1998 at 20:44:15 (EST)
___Sir David -:- Re: On closure -:- Tues, Jan 6, 1998 at 21:04:55 (EST)
___Katie (digression) -:- Re: On closure -:- Tues, Jan 6, 1998 at 21:36:59 (EST)
___Sir David -:- Re: On closure -:- Wed, Jan 7, 1998 at 22:13:28 (EST)
___Rick -:- Re: On closure -:- Wed, Jan 7, 1998 at 22:23:27 (EST)
___Andrew -:- Re: On closure -:- Thurs, Jan 8, 1998 at 01:59:31 (EST)
___Andrew -:- Re: On closure -:- Thurs, Jan 8, 1998 at 02:15:00 (EST)
___op -:- Re: On closure -:- Thurs, Jan 8, 1998 at 03:27:57 (EST)
___Sir David -:- Re: On closure -:- Thurs, Jan 8, 1998 at 04:50:46 (EST)
___Sir David -:- Re: On closure -:- Thurs, Jan 8, 1998 at 05:10:52 (EST)
___John K. -:- Re: On closure -:- Thurs, Jan 8, 1998 at 10:15:30 (EST)
___Anon -:- Re: On closure -:- Thurs, Jan 8, 1998 at 10:44:03 (EST)
___pushin' -:- and a pullin' -:- Thurs, Jan 8, 1998 at 10:49:10 (EST)
___The first and greatest -:- Anon -:- Thurs, Jan 8, 1998 at 10:58:07 (EST)
___the lighter side of -:- Re: op -:- Thurs, Jan 8, 1998 at 11:09:47 (EST)
___op -:- Re: On closure -:- Thurs, Jan 8, 1998 at 11:28:30 (EST)
___the heavier side of -:- Re: op -:- Thurs, Jan 8, 1998 at 11:39:40 (EST)
___CD -:- Re: On closure -:- Thurs, Jan 8, 1998 at 23:52:11 (EST)
___op -:- Re: op -:- Fri, Jan 9, 1998 at 03:56:16 (EST)
___Anon -:- Re:Watch out for music! -:- Fri, Jan 9, 1998 at 06:36:12 (EST)
___bftb -:- Re: On closure -:- Fri, Jan 9, 1998 at 12:15:13 (EST)
___John K. -:- Re: Re:Watch out for music! -:- Fri, Jan 9, 1998 at 12:20:58 (EST)
___Mr Ex -:- Re: Re:Watch out for music! -:- Fri, Jan 9, 1998 at 13:43:17 (EST)
___Mickey the Pharisee -:- Re: Re:Watch out for music! -:- Fri, Jan 9, 1998 at 14:47:15 (EST)
___CD -:- Re: Re:Watch out for music! -:- Fri, Jan 9, 1998 at 21:58:58 (EST)
___John K. -:- Re: Re:Watch out for music! -:- Sat, Jan 10, 1998 at 02:44:48 (EST)
___CD -:- Re: Re:Watch out for music! -:- Sat, Jan 10, 1998 at 16:21:52 (EST)
___a browser -:- Re: On closure -:- Sun, Jan 11, 1998 at 02:02:38 (EST)
bftb -:- Important post -:- Mon, Jan 5, 1998 at 17:46:47 (EST)
___katie -:- Message from "Brother of 2 Ex's" -:- Mon, Jan 5, 1998 at 18:06:42 (EST)
___Mr. Oxymoron -:- Re: Important post -:- Mon, Jan 5, 1998 at 21:07:30 (EST)
___Jim (The Brother of 2) -:- Re: Message from 'Brother of 2 Ex's' -:- Tues, Jan 6, 1998 at 10:46:26 (EST)
___Jim (Brother of 2) -:- Re: Important post -:- Tues, Jan 6, 1998 at 10:52:51 (EST)
Mili -:- Thanks, Jim. -:- Mon, Jan 5, 1998 at 12:13:21 (EST)
___bftb -:- Re: Thanks, Jim. -:- Mon, Jan 5, 1998 at 16:11:48 (EST)
___d@vid -:- Re: Thanks, Jim. -:- Mon, Jan 5, 1998 at 16:15:20 (EST)
___bftb -:- Re: Thanks, Jim. -:- Mon, Jan 5, 1998 at 16:16:44 (EST)
___d@vid -:- Re: Thanks, Jim. -:- Mon, Jan 5, 1998 at 16:27:07 (EST)
___bftb -:- Re: Thanks, Jim. -:- Mon, Jan 5, 1998 at 16:57:30 (EST)
___d@vid -:- Re: Thanks, Jim. -:- Mon, Jan 5, 1998 at 17:13:09 (EST)
Jim -:- Thanks, OP -:- Mon, Jan 5, 1998 at 11:00:51 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: Thanks, OP -:- Mon, Jan 5, 1998 at 17:43:30 (EST)
Jim -:- The Crazy Mind of Mili Living in Za -:- Mon, Jan 5, 1998 at 10:49:08 (EST)
___John K. -:- Re: The Crazy Mind of Mili Living in Za -:- Mon, Jan 5, 1998 at 11:41:06 (EST)
___John K. -:- Re: The Crazy Mind of Mili Living in Za -:- Mon, Jan 5, 1998 at 11:45:20 (EST)
JW -:- Public Relations -- Ros Sutton -:- Mon, Jan 5, 1998 at 00:39:32 (EST)
___Mr Ex -:- Re: Public Relations -- Ros Sutton -:- Mon, Jan 5, 1998 at 05:05:24 (EST)
___Sir David -:- Re: Public Relations -- Ros Sutton -:- Mon, Jan 5, 1998 at 08:20:47 (EST)
___Mr. Oxymoron -:- Bopal India - Ros Sutton -:- Mon, Jan 5, 1998 at 08:32:45 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: Bopal India - Ros Sutton -:- Mon, Jan 5, 1998 at 20:11:02 (EST)
Please Explain.. -:- Mr EX -:- Sun, Jan 4, 1998 at 19:58:10 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: Mr EX -:- Sun, Jan 4, 1998 at 20:52:24 (EST)
___Mr Ex -:- Re: Mr EX -:- Mon, Jan 5, 1998 at 05:07:32 (EST)
___me -:- Re: Mr EX -:- Mon, Jan 5, 1998 at 06:42:47 (EST)
___Mr Ex -:- Re: Mr EX -:- Mon, Jan 5, 1998 at 09:56:03 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: Mr EX -:- Mon, Jan 5, 1998 at 10:10:23 (EST)
___John K. -:- Re: Mr EX -:- Mon, Jan 5, 1998 at 12:12:10 (EST)
___Mr Ex -:- Re: Mr EX -:- Mon, Jan 5, 1998 at 13:03:38 (EST)
___John K. -:- Re: Mr EX -:- Mon, Jan 5, 1998 at 13:48:19 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: Mr EX -:- Mon, Jan 5, 1998 at 13:51:14 (EST)
___Mr Ex -:- Re: Mr EX -:- Tues, Jan 6, 1998 at 05:17:41 (EST)
___x-man -:- and bobby -:- Tues, Jan 6, 1998 at 10:52:33 (EST)
___x-man -:- and bobby -:- Tues, Jan 6, 1998 at 10:53:05 (EST)
Jim -:- Usenet's reply to Mili -:- Sun, Jan 4, 1998 at 17:34:29 (EST)
___d@vid -:- Re: Usenet's reply to Mili -:- Mon, Jan 5, 1998 at 07:40:27 (EST)
___Mr. Oxymoron -:- Troll Kings Response to the Usenet Statement -:- Mon, Jan 5, 1998 at 08:39:45 (EST)
Jim -:- Bobby's Sensitivity Workshop -:- Sun, Jan 4, 1998 at 17:21:13 (EST)
Jim -:- Pseudonyms are a bad habit -:- Sun, Jan 4, 1998 at 16:52:46 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: Pseudonyms are a bad habit -:- Sun, Jan 4, 1998 at 17:22:57 (EST)
___Jim -:- Re: Pseudonyms are a bad habit -:- Sun, Jan 4, 1998 at 17:27:05 (EST)
___Katie -:- "Lord Jim III" is not Jim -:- Sun, Jan 4, 1998 at 17:45:27 (EST)
Katie -:- Hey Maharaji! Let the premies post. -:- Sun, Jan 4, 1998 at 15:16:26 (EST)
Rick -:- Tar and Feathers Link -:- Sun, Jan 4, 1998 at 13:50:47 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: Tar and Feathers Link -:- Sun, Jan 4, 1998 at 14:53:11 (EST)
___Rick -:- Re: Tar and Feathers Link -:- Sun, Jan 4, 1998 at 20:02:02 (EST)
Rick -:- Tar and Feathers -:- Sun, Jan 4, 1998 at 13:47:11 (EST)
Seymour -:- Moving On... -:- Sun, Jan 4, 1998 at 13:34:53 (EST)
___Sir David -:- Re: Moving On... -:- Sun, Jan 4, 1998 at 14:23:06 (EST)
___Jim -:- Re: Moving On... -:- Sun, Jan 4, 1998 at 15:52:28 (EST)
___Jim -:- Re: Moving On... -:- Sun, Jan 4, 1998 at 15:56:38 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: Moving On... -:- Sun, Jan 4, 1998 at 18:37:39 (EST)
___Jim -:- Re: Moving On... -:- Sun, Jan 4, 1998 at 18:44:57 (EST)
___Katie (digression) -:- Re: Moving On... -:- Sun, Jan 4, 1998 at 18:56:59 (EST)
___Sir David -:- Re: Moving On... -:- Sun, Jan 4, 1998 at 21:38:46 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: Moving On... -:- Sun, Jan 4, 1998 at 22:04:24 (EST)
___Sir David -:- Re: Moving On... -:- Sun, Jan 4, 1998 at 23:01:25 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: Moving On... -:- Mon, Jan 5, 1998 at 00:08:49 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: Moving On... -:- Mon, Jan 5, 1998 at 00:17:24 (EST)
___Sir David -:- Re: Moving On... -:- Mon, Jan 5, 1998 at 07:29:33 (EST)
___John K. -:- Re: Moving On... -:- Mon, Jan 5, 1998 at 10:47:47 (EST)
___John Cavad -:- Re: Moving On... -:- Mon, Jan 5, 1998 at 17:01:08 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: Moving On... -:- Mon, Jan 5, 1998 at 22:23:23 (EST)
___Seymour -:- Re: Moving On... -:- Fri, Jan 9, 1998 at 15:40:55 (EST)
Maharaji -IS- -:- Retireing. It is a brilliant move. -:- Sun, Jan 4, 1998 at 04:38:40 (EST)
___well maybe it's -:- just clever -:- Sun, Jan 4, 1998 at 11:26:06 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: Retireing. It is a brilliant move. -:- Sun, Jan 4, 1998 at 12:47:13 (EST)
___Sir David -:- We should start our own knowledge foundation -:- Sun, Jan 4, 1998 at 12:52:57 (EST)
Brian -:- Mili's Bogus Supporters -:- Sun, Jan 4, 1998 at 00:38:10 (EST)
___Brian -:- Re: Mili's Bogus Supporters -:- Sun, Jan 4, 1998 at 00:42:50 (EST)
___Brian -:- OP, Did Mili ask your permission? -:- Sun, Jan 4, 1998 at 00:48:41 (EST)
___op -:- Re: OP, Did Mili ask your permission? -:- Sun, Jan 4, 1998 at 01:47:40 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: Mili's Bogus Supporters -:- Sun, Jan 4, 1998 at 02:31:29 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: OP, Did Mili ask your permission? -:- Sun, Jan 4, 1998 at 02:58:22 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: OP, Did Mili ask your permission? -:- Sun, Jan 4, 1998 at 04:00:19 (EST)
___op -:- Re: OP, Did Mili ask your permission? -:- Sun, Jan 4, 1998 at 04:15:17 (EST)
___$ -:- @mili.com -:- Sun, Jan 4, 1998 at 04:46:07 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: OP, Did Mili ask your permission? -:- Sun, Jan 4, 1998 at 07:00:08 (EST)
___Brian -:- Re: OP, Did Mili ask your permission? -:- Sun, Jan 4, 1998 at 08:57:57 (EST)
___another bystander -:- update to usenet -:- Sun, Jan 4, 1998 at 11:33:34 (EST)
___op -:- Re: OP, Did Mili ask your permission? -:- Sun, Jan 4, 1998 at 11:53:26 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: OP, Did Mili ask your permission? -:- Sun, Jan 4, 1998 at 12:10:30 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: OP, Did Mili ask your permission? -:- Sun, Jan 4, 1998 at 12:45:08 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: OP, Did Mili ask your permission? -:- Sun, Jan 4, 1998 at 13:00:51 (EST)
___Bobby -:- Re: OP, Did Mili ask your permission? -:- Sun, Jan 4, 1998 at 13:25:07 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: OP, Did Mili ask your permission? -:- Sun, Jan 4, 1998 at 13:51:16 (EST)
___A real judge -:- Re: Mili's Bogus Supporters -:- Sun, Jan 4, 1998 at 14:22:11 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: OP, Did Mili ask your permission? -:- Sun, Jan 4, 1998 at 14:25:57 (EST)
___Bobby -:- Re: OP, Did Mili ask your permission? -:- Sun, Jan 4, 1998 at 14:31:53 (EST)
___Bobby -:- Re: OP, Did Mili ask your permission? -:- Sun, Jan 4, 1998 at 15:16:41 (EST)
___Jim -:- Re: OP, Did Mili ask your permission? -:- Sun, Jan 4, 1998 at 15:40:50 (EST)
___bftb -:- Re: OP, Did Mili ask your permission? -:- Sun, Jan 4, 1998 at 16:02:24 (EST)
___mark time -:- Re: OP, Did Mili ask your permission? -:- Sun, Jan 4, 1998 at 18:19:04 (EST)
___mark time -:- Re: OP, Did Mili ask your permission? -:- Sun, Jan 4, 1998 at 18:19:14 (EST)
___Mickey the Pharisee -:- Re: OP, Did Mili ask your permission? -:- Sun, Jan 4, 1998 at 18:46:49 (EST)
___bftb -:- Re: OP, Did Mili ask your permission? -:- Sun, Jan 4, 1998 at 20:01:45 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: OP, Did Mili ask your permission? -:- Sun, Jan 4, 1998 at 20:10:19 (EST)
___bftb -:- Re: OP, Did Mili ask your permission? -:- Sun, Jan 4, 1998 at 20:22:05 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: OP, Did Mili ask your permission? -:- Sun, Jan 4, 1998 at 21:17:01 (EST)
___Brian -:- Re: update to usenet -:- Sun, Jan 4, 1998 at 21:24:39 (EST)
___op -:- Re: OP, Did Mili ask your permission? -:- Mon, Jan 5, 1998 at 02:11:42 (EST)
___op -:- Re: OP, re $ybernetics, and thus off topic -:- Mon, Jan 5, 1998 at 02:26:05 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: OP, Did Mili ask your permission? -:- Mon, Jan 5, 1998 at 02:49:53 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: OP, Did Mili ask your permission? -:- Mon, Jan 5, 1998 at 03:06:07 (EST)
___Brian -:- Re: OP, re $ybernetics, and thus off topic -:- Mon, Jan 5, 1998 at 07:39:38 (EST)
___bftb -:- Re: OP, Did Mili ask your permission? -:- Mon, Jan 5, 1998 at 11:17:40 (EST)
___Mr Ex -:- Re: OP, Did Mili ask your permission? -:- Mon, Jan 5, 1998 at 12:09:17 (EST)
___Mr Ex -:- Re: OP, Did Mili ask your permission? -:- Mon, Jan 5, 1998 at 12:36:10 (EST)
___And On Anand Ji -:- Re: OP, Did Mili ask your permission? -:- Wed, Jan 14, 1998 at 06:51:25 (EST)
Date: Tues, Jan 6, 1998 at 12:48:30 (EST)
Poster: John Cavad
Email:
To: Nigel
Subject: Message to Nigel
Message:
Nigel, I would like to encourage you to write your Journeys sometime soon. I understand you wish to rewrite and edit your original version as posted a week ago, and that does take your valuable time and effort. I agree it's a smart idea to polish it up since thousands will read it. What I found extremely attractive about your story is your life as a premie spans widely between DLM and EV. You managed to link the two ostensibly different periods effectively. As you know many of us dropped out of all this in the early stages of EV or earlier and are consequesntly accused of "living in the past," "talking about the old GMJ." Your story can demonstrate that although the administrative structure of GMJ's world has evolved closer to a secular or Western model, nothing has really changed. Thanks.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Tues, Jan 6, 1998 at 15:34:44 (EST)
Poster: Nigel
Email:
To: John Cavad
Subject: Re: Message to Nigel
Message:
Nigel, I would like to encourage you to write your Journeys sometime soon. I understand you wish to rewrite and edit your original version as posted a week ago, and that does take your valuable time and effort. I agree it's a smart idea to polish it up since thousands will read it. What I found extremely attractive about your story is your life as a premie spans widely between DLM and EV. You managed to link the two ostensibly different periods effectively. As you know many of us dropped out of all this in the early stages of EV or earlier and are consequesntly accused of 'living in the past,' 'talking about the old GMJ.' Your story can demonstrate that although the administrative structure of GMJ's world has evolved closer to a secular or Western model, nothing has really changed. Thanks.
I promise I'll do it soon, John. There's some more stuff I've just posted to Seymour and JW - some of that might be useful to include as well, maybe.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Wed, Jan 7, 1998 at 17:23:51 (EST)
Poster: Nigel
Email:
To: John
Subject: Re: Message to Nigel
Message:
John, I've finished editing my 'Journey', but I've got trouble with my MSN email link. If I post it here (below), could you or somebody else maybe paste it into the Journey's section?
Thanks.
Just give the name 'Nigel' and no other info. Thanks very much.
>
My own experience of 'Knowledge' bridges both the (1970's) Divine Light Mission period, and, briefly, the (1980's) Elan Vital era, but I identify most strongly with the DLM premies, and can still get very angry about the absurdities of the late seventies Maharaj ji experience - the out-and-out 'Living Perfect Master' trip propagated by Maharaj ji himself, his initiators, and acolytes of the period. And from what I remember, it simply isn't good enough to blame the premies themselves for the personality cult, as if Maharaj ji had nothing to do with it.
Back in 1978 I was a 23 year-old time-served aspirant. I'd been waiting nine months for Knowledge and had been turned down twice, so the elusive gift that was supposed to revolutionise my life was beginning to seem like something that would elude me forever. During the waiting period I'd been to satsang practically every night and had travelled far and wide to prograMaharaj jies with initiators. The message from everyone at this time was very, very explicit: you must detach yourself from all the pleasures, desires, ambitions of this world and surrender completely to Guru Maharaj ji, and let Knowledge become THE WHOLE of your existence. Maharaj ji himself was saying this in every single address.
The day before I was to set off for my third and final attempt to receive Knowledge, my brother died of leukaemia, aged 22. People with similar experiences will know this is not a great thing to have happen in your family. But I had a new 'family' now, and everyone I spoke to - premies and the initiator - knew exactly where my duty lay - and that was to be at the Knowledge session, rather than with my family, so that's where I went for the next five days. I cringe at the memory, but feel no bitterness towards the premies about this. I had long since absorbed the premie worldview and shared their opinion that for me to receive Knowledge and then share satsang with my family would probably be the best way of helping both myself and them.
I can now see that brainwashing is a far more subtle process than the way you'll see it portrayed in the news media - and it is a process that is at its most powerful when you believe you are acting entirely of your own free will (which of course, in a sense, you are). There was no need for Maharaj ji to kidnap me and whisk me off to the Knowledge session. He didn't need to. That's the bloody tragedy of it. All it takes is for an impressionable young adult to swallow without question whatever is presented as the truth - in this case that Maharaj ji was Lord of the Universe and that receiving and realising Knowledge was the sole purpose of our human existence. The insistence on complete dedication and devotion at that time - 'one-pointedness' they called it - was absolutely mindbending.
So I got Knowledge, and things got better gradually over the next couple of years, and I had some good meditation experiences ( - but don't now believe these to be any better, deeper or more 'real' than any other meditation you might try. In spite of the secrecy surrounding them, the techniques are pretty much 'public domain' and are part of many eastern yogic systems.) There was a very positive vibe in the community at that time, and I saw it grow from just two or three premies in 1977 to nearing thirty in 1980. We were young, we were certain that we had found the truth; the rest of the world would soon follow. It was like a kind of heaven - a very blinkered heaven. We were smug as hell, in retrospect. We shared satsang about 'the crazy world' out there, and could be very patronising - contemptuous, even - of the ordinary, everyday acts of love and kindness that you encounter in the non-premie world ('not the real thing; not that REAL LOVE; GURU MAHARAJ JI'S LOVE...' - again, I cringe at the memory). I went to Geneva, to London, to Malaga and had darshan, and to Rome in 1980. I gave freely of my unpaid labour 'doing service' at numerous presentations and fund-raising events, and spent some time in Reigate helping prepare the luxurious house and grounds there that were to become Maharaj ji's UK Residence. I brought three or four friends to their first satsang and watched with satisfaction as, one by one, they received Knowledge.
I used to be uncomfortable and a little embarrassed about the way that every penny raised by DLM seemed to go to DLM alone: either to Maharaj ji, to staging future premie events, or to attracting new members (ie., new contributors). A completely self-serving little universe. (The Hare Krishnas - a movement who share much in common with DLM - do at least run soup-kitchens for the homeless as part of their service). It's a very weird concept of charity. When I still thought premie thoughts I used to rationalise this to myself, and to others, by saying at least when people receive Knowledge they are more likely to become the sort of people who will do good for others, than they were before. This is nonsense, of course. I also believed the line of thought that went: Guru Maharaj ji has become wealthy not because he sought wealth but because he devoted his life to Knowledge. I knew all the right Biblical quotes to help with this kind of rationalisation. In this case it was: 'Seek ye first the kingdom of heaven, and all the rest shall be added'. (will it buggery! - I could hardly afford to keep open a bank account in all my premie years.)
Forever hard-up through paying for travelling, and making community donations, I was nevertheless happy for a few years. I met my first long-term partner, told her about Maharaj ji, took her to see him, then we got married. Then she got Knowledge and jumped into bed with another premie (an 'ashram' premie!). This sort of soured things...
Met someone else, joined a band, moved away, remarried (still married), 'spaced-out' for five years. I never deliberately left the movement, but when I revisited the old community in 1986 it had dwindled and changed beyond all recognition. It was like going back to your home town and finding your old house has been burned down. My earliest premie friend had just become an initiator (but now called an 'Instructor') He gave me a Knowledge review. And HOW things had changed: no satsang, no service - just the meditation '...and you can do it as little or as much as you like, when you like' he told me. In a way it was Knowledge just like you had always wanted it to be - no intensely committed lifestyle, just this 'help yourself' experience, but at the same time, it was more like a clinical technique you might find in a library book. They used to say Knowledge was a three-legged stool: satsang, service and meditation. Take away any one leg, and it will fall over. Now it was officially a one-legged stool. Very few old premies were still practising - and I'm no longer sure whether there are any still left there.
During the preparation for his becoming an instructor, my friend told me, Maharaj ji had told them 'I'm exactly the same as you are'. At another point (to blow their concepts) he smoked a cigarette. Street-cred, heh?
Around the same time I went to see Maharaj ji in Birmingham - and the transformation was almost shocking. I had last seen Maharaj ji in Rome in 1980. He had worn his Krishna crown and danced around for ages in blue and white silk, waving a flute about (which, for some reason, he never played). I remember we all seemed to find this quite delightful: a kind of divine rock-star adoration. He was the Lord, and none of the thousands present can have been in any doubt about it.
The Birmingam event (1986) was more like a business convention. No 'bhole shri's', no devotional music, no 'By His Grace's', no talk of devotion or surrender - not much of anything, really (though still overpriced). Maharaj ji, smart-suited in a simple chair gave a couple of addresses, which, in retrospect, were no more than a heap of vacuous rubbish about nothing in particular. The whole experience seemed very much like Maharaj ji was desperately trying to cut his losses and salvage something for himself out of the ruins of DLM - something low-key and respectable. He no longer referred to himself in the third person with the usual superlatives ('by that most amazing grace of Guru Maharaj ji' etc.). He was definitely playing himself down - almost pretending that earlier existence had never happened. There was a question-and-answer session in which old premies asked things like: 'why can't we have satsang anymore?' I don't remember any of the answers, but the experience was very underwhelming. It may have been the same man talking about the same Knowledge - but you would never have known it. They might as well have entitled it 'A baffling seminar on self-realisation by Mr Prem Pal Rawat, homespun philosopher and meditation consultant'. Maharaj ji hadn't been around for a while and I think there was a lot of deep confusion in that hall. The audience had all at some time 'surrendered the reins of their life' to this man, believing his claims to be the Living Perfect Master, now returned to human form 'with more grace, and more power than ever before' who said he would 'establish peace on earth in my lifetime'.
I went home and never returned. The anger came later, as, over the years, I became much happier without Knowledge than I had ever been whilst practising it, and soon I was an out-and-out sceptic about all so-called spiritual paths. I recognised the wasted years for what they were. The conviction gradually grew in me that the whole thing was an absolute sham - a sort of confidence trick without a con-man - Maharaj ji being as much a victim as he is perpetrator of the whole grand delusion. (If he's been surrounded since his earliest childhood by people who regard him as the lord, then what can you expect?). But I do wish he'd realise the devasting sort of power he has held over people's whole lives - very destructive in some cases. When it comes down to it, I can't say for sure who the hell Mr Rawat is, or believes himself to be, but it is hard for me to think of him as anything more than a cynical, self-serving manipulator of his trusting followers.
Recently I went to college, got a degree in psychology at the age of forty - an experience of inner satisfaction unrivalled by any I had previously known. You don't need to learn much about about conformity, compliance, social learning and group behaviour to recognise the powerful (earthly) forces that used to keep us all coming back for more.
My final-year dissertation was all about people's susceptibility to paranormal / superstitious beliefs, and how you can prove experimentally just how gullible most people can be in certain situations. (I seemed to have a remarkable feel for the subject, for some strange reason...)
I currently work in a drug rehabilitation agency. I have seen premies and I have seen junkies, and I don't think it's too much of an exaggeration to say that I think I would prefer my children to grow up to become heroin users than premies, for two reasons: firstly, junkies can have a pretty good idea about how harmful their habit has become, and usually appreciate what their real needs are. Secondly, you can do full detox in under nine days; it took me nine years to finally get the poison out of my system.
If there are any would-be aspirants reading this be warned: you might well come to regret ever having heard of Maharaj ji. At the very least, just read around this website, then go ask the premies all the most difficult questions you can think of. Make them think a little!
> Never, never, never again will I fall for such a load of old humbug as that which I squandered my early years of adult life on.
Nigel
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Date: Wed, Jan 7, 1998 at 18:09:16 (EST)
Poster: John
Email:
To: John Cavad
Subject: Re: Message to Nigel
Message:
Done!
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Date: Thurs, Jan 8, 1998 at 01:49:05 (EST)
Poster: And On Anand Ji
Email: aoa
To: Nigel
Subject: Re: Message to Nigel
Message:
(unrelated, mostly)
Nigel, please say something about intervention in an
acute episode of heroin addiction. I was asked the
other day and didn't know what to tell the person who
was concerned for a friend who is using.
Thank you.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 8, 1998 at 02:58:21 (EST)
Poster: concerned party
Email:
To: And On Anand Ji
Subject: Re: Message to Nigel
Message:
Can you be more specific? I'm not Nigel, but have had some experience with addiction, heroin, and intervention.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 8, 1998 at 03:31:56 (EST)
Poster: And On Anand Ji
Email: and_on_anand@yahoo.com
To: concerned party
Subject: Re: Message to Nigel
Message:
Can you be more specific? I'm not Nigel, but have had some experience with addiction, heroin, and intervention.
No, not here. There's a confidentiality problem in being
more specific in an open forum.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 8, 1998 at 11:30:51 (EST)
Poster: the needle or
Email: b
To: And On Anand Ji
Subject: the nose (Re: Message to Nigel)
Message:
show them something inside.
Talk is impossible usually. But narc anon, the aa version
for junkies is really good.
Strand them on an island and provide them with everything
but
Write them off, it's their choice and if narc anon can't
help, they just have to hit bottom.
It's better than being a moonie.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 8, 1998 at 14:16:10 (EST)
Poster: bftb
Email:
To: the needle or
Subject: Re: the nose (Re: Message to Nigel)
Message:
show them something inside.
Talk is impossible usually. But narc anon, the aa version
for junkies is really good.
Strand them on an island and provide them with everything
but
Write them off, it's their choice and if narc anon can't
help, they just have to hit bottom.
It's better than being a moonie.
be careful though because one of those narcotics anonymous groups(i'm not sure which one-maybe someone else here knows?)is purported to actually be operated by the good ole church of scientology.I don't know for sure but I'd imagine that once they get you off smack,they've got you on dianetics or whatever it is they actually do.Maybe it actually works for people anyway?
This is my opinion from popular heresay:-) so to all cos attorneys-I really don't know if these stories I've heard are true,just hoping someone here does.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 8, 1998 at 16:17:42 (EST)
Poster: And On Anand Ji
Email: aoa
To: bftb
Subject: Re: the nose (Re: Message to Nigel)
Message:
I've been to NA myself. They weren't too impressed;
I was there because I wanted to stay clean -- from
nicotine!
I quit smoking last summer. My sweetheart said she
couldn't understand why she started dating a smoker;
I took the hint that this was a temporary departure from
her usual rules about smokers (to avoid dating them).
It was time I'd quit.
I guess we're going to do that intervention at 5:30 this
afternoon. If he's going to be intractable about it,
I'm just going to walk away. I'm not going to invent
threats for him, or try to save his life -- he's not
drowning; he still has a choice and free will (unless
of course none of us do, in which case he's
deterministically in for a difficult time of it!)
I believe in the power of just showing up.
-show up
-pay attention
-speak up
-let go
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Date: Thurs, Jan 8, 1998 at 16:20:52 (EST)
Poster: spare
Email: b
To: bftb
Subject: change (Re: Message to Nigel)
Message:
come to think of it your right.
the aa affiliate is not scientology but there
is a narcotics group that you pay for and that is
where the scientologists operate.
If it isn't expensive, it's not them.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 8, 1998 at 17:14:21 (EST)
Poster: Nigel
Email:
To: John
Subject: Re: Message to Nigel
Message:
Done!
Thanks John.
N
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Date: Thurs, Jan 8, 1998 at 18:54:05 (EST)
Poster: Nigel
Email:
To: And On Anand Ji
Subject: Re: Message to Nigel
Message:
(unrelated, mostly)
Nigel, please say something about intervention in an
acute episode of heroin addiction. I was asked the
other day and didn't know what to tell the person who
was concerned for a friend who is using.
Thank you.
I'd really like to help, but I don't feel qualified to give expert advice in your case.
My own job is not therapeutic but involves research and evaluation of treatments (looking for improvements in physical and psychological well-being, reduced use of street-drugs, needle-sharing etc.), so I can only speak from that perspective.
From what I've seen I would say that once a user has sought help, ongoing social support (in whatever form) is crucial, and a doctor's prescription for methadone (or sometimes diamorphine reefers) can be very useful in removing the need for street drugs, and the associated
petty crime for financing the habit, as well as reducing HIV and hepatitis risks from needle-sharing. Many clients, however, find methadone to be more addictive than heroin. Our agency runs residential programmes in which clients who have been stabilised on methadone, go onto a reducing regime over a six-month period whilst taking part in various kinds of group therapeutic work.
Most clients are non-residential and will sign on for any or all of the following: individual counselling, general advice, workshops on life-skills, arts and crafts, work training courses.
The availability of such services, whether prescribing or therapeutic, will depend very much on (a) which country you are posting from, and (b) whereabouts in that country you live. My agency is in Merseyside, UK, and is run on a charitable basis. (Clients are not charged for anything - nor are concerned friends and relatives who can phone or call in for advice).
The relapse rate is notoriously high, and many clients remain on a methadone prescription for years. Opinions vary on whether this is a good thing in the long-term - but (apart from drowsiness and constipation, apparently!) there is little or no long-term physical damage being done. Some research has shown that in costs to the local community, prescription-based treatment is also very cost-effective in terms of money saved in reduced burglaries and hospital admissions.
From talking to colleagues, I get a strong impression that the main factor in breaking the habit will be something eventually happening in the client's life that makes them decide for themselves that they don't want to do it any more - irrespective of which form of treatment they are receiving.
As I said, I'm no expert and I don't know if any of this is useful. I can only recommend you check out what is available locally, give them a call and take it from there.
(I suspect you'll get a lot of other replies, offering a whole spectrum of opinions on this one!)
Best Wishes
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Date: Thurs, Jan 8, 1998 at 20:06:23 (EST)
Poster: And On Anand Ji
Email: and_on_anand@yahoo.com
To: Nigel
Subject: Re: Message to Nigel
Message:
(unrelated, mostly)
Nigel, please say something about intervention in an
acute episode of heroin addiction. I was asked the
other day and didn't know what to tell the person who
was concerned for a friend who is using.
Thank you.
I'd really like to help, but I don't feel qualified to give expert advice in your case.
My own job is not therapeutic but involves research and evaluation of treatments (looking for improvements in physical and psychological well-being, reduced use of street-drugs, needle-sharing etc.), so I can only speak from that perspective.
From what I've seen I would say that once a user has sought help, ongoing social support (in whatever form) is crucial, and a doctor's prescription for methadone (or sometimes diamorphine reefers) can be very useful in removing the need for street drugs, and the associated
petty crime for financing the habit, as well as reducing HIV and hepatitis risks from needle-sharing. Many clients, however, find methadone to be more addictive than heroin. Our agency runs residential programmes in which clients who have been stabilised on methadone, go onto a reducing regime over a six-month period whilst taking part in various kinds of group therapeutic work.
Most clients are non-residential and will sign on for any or all of the following: individual counselling, general advice, workshops on life-skills, arts and crafts, work training courses.
The availability of such services, whether prescribing or therapeutic, will depend very much on (a) which country you are posting from, and (b) whereabouts in that country you live. My agency is in Merseyside, UK, and is run on a charitable basis. (Clients are not charged for anything - nor are concerned friends and relatives who can phone or call in for advice).
The relapse rate is notoriously high, and many clients remain on a methadone prescription for years. Opinions vary on whether this is a good thing in the long-term - but (apart from drowsiness and constipation, apparently!) there is little or no long-term physical damage being done. Some research has shown that in costs to the local community, prescription-based treatment is also very cost-effective in terms of money saved in reduced burglaries and hospital admissions.
From talking to colleagues, I get a strong impression that the main factor in breaking the habit will be something eventually happening in the client's life that makes them decide for themselves that they don't want to do it any more - irrespective of which form of treatment they are receiving.
As I said, I'm no expert and I don't know if any of this is useful. I can only recommend you check out what is available locally, give them a call and take it from there.
(I suspect you'll get a lot of other replies, offering a whole spectrum of opinions on this one!)
Best Wishes
Thank you, Nigel.
I think the message I'm getting is clear (since it's
a refresher; I've heard it many times before): that
the client is going to have to want to quit using.
Some of the other things you said help to fill in the
sketch (or mental model) I'm making in (yes) my mind
(where else?) of the next five years of this fellow's
life. We're in northeastern USA.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 15, 1998 at 01:55:51 (EST)
Poster: And On Anand Ji
Email: aoa
To: --------
Subject: Update (was "Re: Message to Nigel") (Re: Message to Nigel)
Message:
(unrelated, mostly)
Nigel, please say something about intervention in an
acute episode of heroin addiction. I was asked the
other day and didn't know what to tell the person who
was concerned for a friend who is using.
Thank you.
I'd really like to help, but I don't feel qualified to give expert advice in your case.
My own job is not therapeutic but involves research and evaluation of treatments (looking for improvements in physical and psychological well-being, reduced use of street-drugs, needle-sharing etc.), so I can only speak from that perspective.
From what I've seen I would say that once a user has sought help, ongoing social support (in whatever form) is crucial, and a doctor's prescription for methadone (or sometimes diamorphine reefers) can be very useful in removing the need for street drugs, and the associated
petty crime for financing the habit, as well as reducing HIV and hepatitis risks from needle-sharing. Many clients, however, find methadone to be more addictive than heroin. Our agency runs residential programmes in which clients who have been stabilised on methadone, go onto a reducing regime over a six-month period whilst taking part in various kinds of group therapeutic work.
Most clients are non-residential and will sign on for any or all of the following: individual counselling, general advice, workshops on life-skills, arts and crafts, work training courses.
The availability of such services, whether prescribing or therapeutic, will depend very much on (a) which country you are posting from, and (b) whereabouts in that country you live. My agency is in Merseyside, UK, and is run on a charitable basis. (Clients are not charged for anything - nor are concerned friends and relatives who can phone or call in for advice).
The relapse rate is notoriously high, and many clients remain on a methadone prescription for years. Opinions vary on whether this is a good thing in the long-term - but (apart from drowsiness and constipation, apparently!) there is little or no long-term physical damage being done. Some research has shown that in costs to the local community, prescription-based treatment is also very cost-effective in terms of money saved in reduced burglaries and hospital admissions.
From talking to colleagues, I get a strong impression that the main factor in breaking the habit will be something eventually happening in the client's life that makes them decide for themselves that they don't want to do it any more - irrespective of which form of treatment they are receiving.
As I said, I'm no expert and I don't know if any of this is useful. I can only recommend you check out what is available locally, give them a call and take it from there.
(I suspect you'll get a lot of other replies, offering a whole spectrum of opinions on this one!)
Best Wishes
Thank you, Nigel.
I think the message I'm getting is clear (since it's
a refresher; I've heard it many times before): that
the client is going to have to want to quit using.
Some of the other things you said help to fill in the
sketch (or mental model) I'm making in (yes) my mind
(where else?) of the next five years of this fellow's
life. We're in northeastern USA.
This person is in a reputable drug rehab center as of
the other day.
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Date: Mon, Jan 5, 1998 at 23:15:32 (EST)
Poster: Andrew
Email:
To: Everyone
Subject: On closure
Message:
I've had an interesting time of it lately. I've been a premie for a number of years, lived in the 'shram, , meditated regularly, have tried to help out where I could... in short I have deeply enjoyed Maharaji and his Knowledge. However, lately my life has changed and my focus has shifted to more worldly interests, you know a pretty wife and raising 1.5 kids in the comfortable home with a good income, blah, blah, blah... the yuppie dream.
The interesting thing is I just can't leave Maharaji and Knowledge behind, even though I am torn to do so. But it's not because of brainwashing or coersion as many of you guys claim is at the root of your confusion. I believe I'm a rational thinker who's ready to embrace life's events without too much fear. No, I can't leave because the fruits of Knowledge are so real.
For example, I miss the feeling of completion that comes from a heart that is full. I miss the simple truth that was always a vector in my life. I miss the words of encouragement that always helped me through difficult times. I miss the hope that comes from experiencing something that is truly bigger than myself. I miss the feeling of compassion that comes from having my life in synch with my deepest yearnings.
But these feelings cause me much pain, not because I am under the control of a despotic and evil force, but because I know I turn my back on the only real joy I've ever experienced. I suppose I could get angry at that joy for not letting me settle for less. I suppose I could hold Maharaji responsible for revealing that joy to me and "ruining" my chances for normalcy. I suppose I could pretend I didn't have any say in the choices I've made. But I don't because I know what is causing my pain. It is simply me trying to walk away from something I know is real, and I can't deny it when I look in the mirror. I would be fooling myself to think I could be "healed" by something other than the source of true healing, i.e., bathing in the fountain of true kindness that is within.
Yes, Maharaji *could* be accused of showing me too much. Didn't he know that the beauty he revealed would continue to haunt me even as I try to walk away? Yes he knew. But I asked to be shown. So where's the blame?
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Date: Tues, Jan 6, 1998 at 00:47:56 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: Andrew
Subject: Re: On closure
Message:
I've had an interesting time of it lately. I've been a premie for a number of years, lived in the 'shram, , meditated regularly, have tried to help out where I could... in short I have deeply enjoyed Maharaji and his Knowledge. However, lately my life has changed and my focus has shifted to more worldly interests, you know a pretty wife and raising 1.5 kids in the comfortable home with a good income, blah, blah, blah... the yuppie dream.
The interesting thing is I just can't leave Maharaji and Knowledge behind, even though I am torn to do so. But it's not because of brainwashing or coersion as many of you guys claim is at the root of your confusion. I believe I'm a rational thinker who's ready to embrace life's events without too much fear. No, I can't leave because the fruits of Knowledge are so real.
For example, I miss the feeling of completion that comes from a heart that is full. I miss the simple truth that was always a vector in my life. I miss the words of encouragement that always helped me through difficult times. I miss the hope that comes from experiencing something that is truly bigger than myself. I miss the feeling of compassion that comes from having my life in synch with my deepest yearnings.
But these feelings cause me much pain, not because I am under the control of a despotic and evil force, but because I know I turn my back on the only real joy I've ever experienced. I suppose I could get angry at that joy for not letting me settle for less. I suppose I could hold Maharaji responsible for revealing that joy to me and 'ruining' my chances for normalcy. I suppose I could pretend I didn't have any say in the choices I've made. But I don't because I know what is causing my pain. It is simply me trying to walk away from something I know is real, and I can't deny it when I look in the mirror. I would be fooling myself to think I could be 'healed' by something other than the source of true healing, i.e., bathing in the fountain of true kindness that is within.
Yes, Maharaji *could* be accused of showing me too much. Didn't he know that the beauty he revealed would continue to haunt me even as I try to walk away? Yes he knew. But I asked to be shown. So where's the blame?
Why would focusing on things like you wife and kids and a nice lifestyle cause you "pain?" Only a premie would say somthing that ridiculous. It was only when I thought like a premie that I felt pain like that. Where is that dichotomy coming from that you can only live a normal life with the pain of missing something else? Where does that bullshit come from? Is it real? I don't think so. It's, in my experience, and what you say is very familiar to me, a bill of goods that got sold to me and I bought for many years. And after I left, I didn't lose the "joy" either. What I discovered was that what Maharaji offered was a very limited and a very limiting thing. Life is full of joy and fulfillment. But if you hold on to a fairy tale and feel pain because life is different from the fairy tale, you are going to miss what is really happening in your life. And that would be sad.
Hopefully you didn't give up too much of your life so far to follow M. I suggest you don't give up any more of it and focus on your wife and kids and the other REAL things in your life, instead of fealing "pain" and being "haunted" because you think you supposed to be doing something else. Doing what? Following your breath? Kissing his feet? Please....
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Date: Tues, Jan 6, 1998 at 00:57:56 (EST)
Poster: enjoy your
Email: bb
To: Andrew
Subject: kids (Re: On closure)
Message:
You are free in this life to enjoy any view you like.
Certainly your self analysis is a good thing to do
when you feel to do it.
Each person is apparently different and the quote
'one mans poison is another mans food' can fit this
situation here sometimes.
There are worse ways to view life that you could have.
A casual involvement in some relationship with
maharaji and his knowledge is your chouce then so be it.
This forum is not for you.
I met someone today that you remind me of, I have known him
for a long time and his involvement with maharaji is
very very loose. He is all busy with his life and he
is not interested in thinking about life and focusing
on a friendship with god or anything.
So for him does it matter? There is no way he wants to
start going to a church or becoming more involved with
the god issue in any way, he is not about to read dawkins
or try a shamanic mantra.
Why rock the boat? It's like a catholic who knows the
church is nutty but isn't about to start the whole
process of checking out the episcapalians or whomever.
So, for you, things are fine, well, that is your
conclusion then just be on your way.
There is something inside, you feel it, so feel it.
I see now that the majority of the people here don't
believe in the idea of the friend god idea. That is
apparently a-ok, so how you view that issue is yours
to patch together.
If you were all caught up like I was, this place
can be of some use.
Depends on your involvement and your needs.
I'm the type that HAS to kind of walk along with the
power as concious friend. So I had an issue to
straighten out there.
Church attendance is low everywhere, most people only
want a very loose involvement with whatever thier
god orientation is, fine. God is an image and a religion
and a once in awhile during a crisis sort of thing, fine.
Zealots are the other side of the coin, and unless you
are a zealot or an ex zealot, you really have no
business here. There are zealot catholics, but most are
only catholics for christmas and deaths and weddings
and the kids confirmation and communion party types.
Probabaly the same for all groups after a while.
There is no need for us to know you.
I see no point.
enjoy your kids.
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Date: Tues, Jan 6, 1998 at 01:04:18 (EST)
Poster: Rick
Email: rtaraday@hotmail.com
To: Andrew
Subject: Re: On closure
Message:
I think you're right. In this case, maharaji wasn't the fool. If you miss the feeling of a full heart, and the simple truth, and the words of encouragement, and experiencing something bigger than yourself, why leave? Perhaps what you miss is the illusion of a full heart, and a perception of reality that is simplistic and therefore comfortable, and words of enablement, and experiencing not having to be responsible. Your testimony of grief is questionable because there was little grief and a lot of praise. Do you really have 1.5 kids or have you heard so much satsang about "Rolls Royce happiness" that you brought forth a mutation? The word "'shram" was a nice touch; it almost diminunizes the vice grip of denial that the aaaashram cultivates.
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Date: Tues, Jan 6, 1998 at 04:04:08 (EST)
Poster: @gnes @gony @unt
Email: @gnes
To: JW
Subject: Re: On closure
Message:
Andrew pined: 'I can't leave because the fruits of Knowledge are so real.
What are these fruits, Andrew? You get some peace from meditating? Well that's fine, they're good meditation techniques and practicing them can help bring some quiet into life's frantic race. But you really don't have to swallow all that Maharaji bullshit to enjoy them. In fact, it's a lot better without him. He just gets in the way.
But perhaps you like the certainty that came with it. The feeling that you knew all the answers and were one of God's chosen few. Well I'm sorry to disallusion you Andrew, but you don't and you aren't, and the sooner you come to accept that, the happier you will be.
Agnes Agony Aunt.
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Date: Tues, Jan 6, 1998 at 07:24:54 (EST)
Poster: another bystander
Email:
To: Andrew
Subject: The vultures swarm (Re: On closure)
Message:
You won't find much compassion here Andrew.
Mostly cynicism and mind games.
Sorry.
Follow your heart.
No blame.
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Date: Tues, Jan 6, 1998 at 08:44:58 (EST)
Poster: Brian
Email:
To: another bystander
Subject: Re: The vultures swarm (Re: On closure)
Message:
You won't find much compassion here Andrew.
Mostly cynicism and mind games.
Sorry.
Follow your heart.
No blame.
That's right. It's surprising how few people only post here because they choose as their life's purpose to be your personal tower of support, eh Bobby? Sorry, didn't mean to blow your cynical mind game.
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Date: Tues, Jan 6, 1998 at 08:59:50 (EST)
Poster: John K.
Email: kreilkamp@mindspring.com
To: another bystander
Subject: Re: The vultures swarm (Re: On closure)
Message:
compassion? I did not get the sense that Andrew needs Compassion. Sounds like everything is fine for Andrew. Is my heart supposed to bleed for Andrew because he has to experience bliss and happiness at the feet of his master? I'm happy for Andrew, just like I'm happy for anyone who has the guts to express exactly how they feel.
whoever YOU are, you don't have the guts to identify yourself. What are you afraid of? Aren't you playing a sort of mind game yourself? Why don't you follow your own advice "No Blame". Aren't you blaming us for our 'mind games'?
which, btw, has GOT to be the lamest thing I ever heard. I know, I probably have said it and believed it myself in my long life, but in the real world, in real time, what does it possibly mean? We have to try to take responsibilty for our words and actions, don't we? "No blame" implies to me that we don't have to.
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Date: Tues, Jan 6, 1998 at 09:17:22 (EST)
Poster: another bystander
Email:
To: Brian
Subject: Re: The vultures swarm (Re: On closure)
Message:
hatred breeds hatred
bobby?
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Date: Tues, Jan 6, 1998 at 09:58:39 (EST)
Poster: John K
Email: kreilkamp@mindspring.com
To: Andrew
Subject: Re: On closure
Message:
Andrew:
I was slightly incorrect in my post below.
Actually, on re-reading your post, I do see that you are in need of compassion. Since you do say you are in pain. It does sound like you are looking at your 'pretty wife and 1.5 kids' as objects which stand in the way of your experiencing 'ultimate truth'.
I have raised kids and am still raising one. Kids stand in the way of a lot of things. So does a wife actually. Hell, so does any real responsibility. They stand in the way of someone who wants to climb the corporate ladder. You want to be obsessed with a career monk? Sounds like that's what you are pining for.
Just curious though, how long ago was it that you left?
Why do you think you cannot experience m 'n' k in your present situation?
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Date: Tues, Jan 6, 1998 at 10:00:28 (EST)
Poster: Sir David
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: Andrew
Subject: Re: On closure
Message:
There's nothing to stop you continuing to do meditation regularly if you have the time. I think that's a personal thing, if you like doing meditation then it can be done.
I'm fortunate in one respect, that I never saw my meditation experiences as being seperate from my normal everyday life. If I feel good then my children feel it. I think the pain you talk about is disassociating from the world of Maharaji and premies etc. But was that world real? If you accept your life and the people in it then you will see that it's real and meditation can enhance that.
sg
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Date: Tues, Jan 6, 1998 at 10:18:48 (EST)
Poster: A
Email: aerily@aol.com
To: Andrew
Subject: Re: On closure
Message:
This post moves me very much. There was a time I found myself with three little kids and a crazy household and
a ton of responsibilities and bad habits & wondering how I could have ever walked away from that beauty I had once experienced with Knowledge. When i looked at my life I reflected, could this possibly be an unnatural life: making love and loving these little children so much, and being afraid for them, and not having time for myself anymore because of being a parent and a householder; I was haunted for a long time by all of my old beliefs about the only way to practice Knowledge; and then someone gave me some lsd on my birthday and I took it and looked in the mirror and thought, well... this is what is. If only the singleminded detached ones can feel that love, it ain't my god.
Then a funny thing happened. I just started to live my life differently, and gave up all ambition to practice Knowledge perfectly, and I began to recognize the most wonderful thing. That dancing in every molecule is the thing I seek. In every twinkle of every eye, in every tear, in every unanswerable question, everywhere.
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Date: Tues, Jan 6, 1998 at 10:42:42 (EST)
Poster: John K.
Email:
To: A
Subject: Re: On closure
Message:
Hey! Welcome back. I've missed your input on this crazy page of life.
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Date: Tues, Jan 6, 1998 at 10:52:03 (EST)
Poster: John Cavad
Email:
To: Andrew
Subject: Re: On closure
Message:
Dear Andrew,
YOU ARE BRAINWASHED!!!! Regardless, of what you tell anyone here, YOU ARE BRAINWASHED!!!!
We were all brainwashed; we all went through much time and pain to really break ourselves away from GMJ; some of us are not 100 percent detached yet, but striving towards it. You have no idea how brainwashed you still are (of course you'll deny it like all of us once did.) It's okay and quite normal to be psychologically damaged under these circumstances. But there's hope, always hope.
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Date: Tues, Jan 6, 1998 at 11:22:54 (EST)
Poster: Sir David
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: Anyone
Subject: Re: On closure
Message:
Give your wife what she wants. Take special care in bed that you satisfy her every need. Be an attentive lover and say nice things to her while you're making love. Tell her how beautiful she looks, say how you wish you could do this all night. Let go and give of yourself to her. Forget all preconceived ideas and love without reserve. Hug your children at every available opportunity and tell them that you love them. Realise that you can love unreservedly and you will find great joy.
g
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Date: Tues, Jan 6, 1998 at 11:54:29 (EST)
Poster: Mr Ex
Email:
To: Andrew
Subject: Re: On closure
Message:
It looks like many people posting here can relate to what you experience because they’ve gone through that same kind of feeling.
What I understand is that I made some choices for myself.
I’ve made many choices in my life.
I don’t think I could consider any of them being made without the influence of some situation or/and somebody. Every action I take is under ‘some’ influence : what’s important is where I am at this point, with which consciousness this choice is made.
Everybody agrees up to this point I guess.
Even m.
BUT : he has a big philosophy about this, and I’ve been swallowing it for decades.
This guy (Mr PP Rawat) is supposed to be a meditation teacher (good or bad is another question), nothing else.
Listen to the presentations videos. Listen to the videos for new persons.
>The interesting thing is I just can't leave Maharaji and Knowledge behind,
>even though I am torn to do so. But it's not because of brainwashing or
>coersion as many of you guys claim is at the root of your confusion.
>I believe I'm a rational thinker who's ready to embrace life's events
>without too much fear.
I’m also a rational thinker. The problem with me is that I didn’t use my mind
fully for decades. There has always been a point (during my involvement in k & m)
where I had to stop thinking and switch to maharaji/knowledge/premie’s mode :
stop thinking instead of living according to my OWN feelings, and apply the
philosophy that has been pumped in my cranium during thousands of hours of
‘satsang’ (company of TRUTH : what is that truth anyway?).
>No, I can't leave because the fruits of Knowledge are so real.
What is REAL? Whatever you feel is real to a certain degree.
BUT : m doesn’t own ANY copyright on these feelings.
This is what’s tricky.
You’ve (and I ‘ve) had thousands of moments of bliss, and we’ve been swallowing
tons of BS philosophy during these moments : guess what are the consequences.
This not only a guru recipe : look at what happens in any shop, during any show,
any movie, etc. They make you feel good, and you swallow/buy almost anything.
>For example, I miss the feeling of completion that comes from a heart that is full. I miss the >simple truth that was always a vector in my life.
Maharaji doesn’t own ANY copyright on filling the heart.
Meditation can, without any link to Mr Rawat, whatever he may say (and you and I believed).
Many other things you may like will fill your heart if you invest in them.
>I miss the words of encouragement that >always helped me through difficult times. I miss >the hope that comes from experiencing >something that is truly bigger than myself. I miss >the feeling of compassion that comes >from having my life in synch with my deepest >yearnings.
Now you’ll have to be on your own, if you so wish.
You can always rely on someone else. There are many possible clutches.
This is your choice.
Humans have always been working like this. Life is not always a piece of cake.
You can face your problems. You don’t live alone. No need of a ‘guru’ who never
takes any responsibility.
Or you can use CLUTCHES.
>But these feelings cause me much pain, not because I am under the control of a despotic >and evil force, but because I know I turn my back on the only real joy I've ever experienced.
Who said that other joys are not ‘real’. Remember? Didn’t you ever feel joy before
being involved in m&k. Isn’t this what can be called a result of some brainwashing?
>I suppose I could get angry at that joy for not letting me settle for less. I suppose I could >hold Maharaji responsible for revealing that joy to me and 'ruining' my chances for >normalcy. I suppose I could pretend I didn't have any say in the choices I've made. But I >don't because I know what is causing my pain. It is simply me trying to walk away from >something I know is real, and I can't deny it when I look in the mirror. I would be fooling >myself to think I could be 'healed' by something other than the source of true healing, i.e., >bathing in the fountain of true kindness that is within.
You have to entangle this whole mixture. You’re not very logical anymore.
That’s the sad part. It’s sad to face that reality.
>Yes, Maharaji *could* be accused of showing me too much. Didn't he know that the beauty >he revealed would continue to haunt me even as I try to walk away? Yes he knew. But I >asked to be shown. So where's the blame?
You have to decide ....... be logical.
Who is responsible, and for what?
What is your part?
What are other peoples part?
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Date: Tues, Jan 6, 1998 at 19:48:19 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email:
To: Andrew
Subject: Re: On closure
Message:
Dear Andrew - Maybe I'm dense, but I don't really understand what your problem is? Are you saying that you want to stop practicing knowledge, but feel awful about doing it because you enjoy it so much? Then why stop practicing?
Are you saying that "more worldly interests, you know a pretty wife and raising 1.5 kids in the comfortable home with a good income, blah, blah, blah... the yuppie dream" is preventing you from practicing knowledge? How is it preventing you from practicing? I haven't been a premie for a long time, but when I got knowledge we were taught that you could practice in any kind of circumstances - that "householders", like you are, could practice, etc. After all, Maharaji himself has "worldly interests, you know a pretty wife and raising 1.5 kids in the comfortable home with a good income", and he supposedly practices knowledge and is supposedly fufilled.
So where's the contradiction here - why are you so unhappy?
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Date: Tues, Jan 6, 1998 at 19:53:35 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email:
To: another bystander
Subject: Re: The vultures swarm (Re: On closure)
Message:
You won't find much compassion here Andrew.
Mostly cynicism and mind games.
Sorry.
Follow your heart.
No blame.
dear "another bystander" (whoever you are),
You are reading these posts with a prejudiced eye. You already seem to have made up your mind about the people participaring in this forum and are seeing only what you want to see. So why even bother posting on here?
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Date: Tues, Jan 6, 1998 at 20:18:07 (EST)
Poster: Sir David
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: Katie
Subject: Re: On closure
Message:
Perhaps he was playing Devil's Advocate. Who here is real? I know the impression one gives in a few messages is usually far from the truth. I have my visions of you all but I doubt if they're accurate.
Bobby has a beard and is balding and a vegetarian, OP is about 48 but looks much younger with only a few wrinkles, Bill Burke is slim with sticky out hair and glasses, Mike looks youthful with dark hair and a humorous expression and you Katie must wear glasses and have shoulder brown hair and a full figure.
All probably completely wrong I know. The impression I gave couldn't be further from the truth since I haven't actually used my camera for over a year. I guess when they change the phone lines worldwide to fibre optical cables we'll see each other on video on the net. Until then we have our mental images...
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Date: Tues, Jan 6, 1998 at 20:44:15 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email:
To: Sir David
Subject: Re: On closure
Message:
Perhaps he was playing Devil's Advocate. Who here is real? I know the impression one gives in a few messages is usually far from the truth. I have my visions of you all but I doubt if they're accurate.
Bobby has a beard and is balding and a vegetarian, OP is about 48 but looks much younger with only a few wrinkles, Bill Burke is slim with sticky out hair and glasses, Mike looks youthful with dark hair and a humorous expression and you Katie must wear glasses and have shoulder brown hair and a full figure.
All probably completely wrong I know. The impression I gave couldn't be further from the truth since I haven't actually used my camera for over a year. I guess when they change the phone lines worldwide to fibre optical cables we'll see each other on video on the net. Until then we have our mental images...
Hi David - your "impressions" of everyone made me laugh. I don't know what OP, Bill, or Mike looks like, but there is a picture of Bobby on one of his home pages, and he looks different from what you imagine. Also, you are somewhat off-target on my appearance - I have long dark-blonde ("mouse") hair with bangs, no glasses, and, if you meant "full figure" to be a nice euphemism for overweight, I am not. JW, Bobby, and Brian know what I look like so they can contradict this description. I do look younger than my age (41) if I don't drink too much the night before (the young looks are a result of good genes - I can't claim much credit for them.)
BTW, I don't disapprove of what you do - I was just surprised. It is an unusual occupation, you must admit. And when you revealed your occupation, I did worry a bit about your attitude towards women in general. But after further consideration, I think that that is a little silly of me, because you have always been so nice on the forum.
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Date: Tues, Jan 6, 1998 at 21:04:55 (EST)
Poster: Sir David
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: Katie
Subject: Re: On closure
Message:
What are "bangs"? Are they a type of hair decoration?
Well I thought I'd be way out. Regarding my business, I'm the most unlikely person to be in it and I only got into it by accident.
I got into the adult market quite simply to make some money and then one day a girl asked me what I did for a living and I told her that I sold videos. She must have assumed I MADE videos because a few days later lots of girls phoned me up asking if I would film them.
I didn't even have a video camera but since these girls were so eager I bought one and started filming. The rest is history, as they say.
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Date: Tues, Jan 6, 1998 at 21:36:59 (EST)
Poster: Katie (digression)
Email:
To: Sir David
Subject: Re: On closure
Message:
What are 'bangs'? Are they a type of hair decoration?
Well I thought I'd be way out. Regarding my business, I'm the most unlikely person to be in it and I only got into it by accident.
I got into the adult market quite simply to make some money and then one day a girl asked me what I did for a living and I told her that I sold videos. She must have assumed I MADE videos because a few days later lots of girls phoned me up asking if I would film them.
I didn't even have a video camera but since these girls were so eager I bought one and started filming. The rest is history, as they say.
Bangs are possibly called a "fringe" in Britain? It's hair cut short across the front of the head so it hangs down to one's eyebrows. Hard to describe.
That is a pretty amazing story about the women and the videos, by the way. I never knew that there were so many people who wanted to act in those kind of films. BTW you must have a trustworthy face, or something (that ex-premie charm, perhaps?)
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Date: Wed, Jan 7, 1998 at 22:13:28 (EST)
Poster: Sir David
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: Andrew
Subject: Re: On closure
Message:
Everyone's true nature is one of happiness. You onlt THINK you can't be happy and have a full heart in your situation. Let go of preconceived ideas and you will find your true nature will come forth. I've experienced a full heart many times over years. What is it, it is simply you, your true nature shining forth. That can be in any situation at any time and anywhere. God is omipresent and omnipotent. Do you really think that a life situation can stop Him?!
You are JOY. That is yours and all of our true natures. Your God is here with you now. He has never left you. He knows you intimately and loves you with wild abandon. He also loves your wife and your children. Feel His love for them too. He is incredible. The heart that truly yearns will surely be filled by Him who is everything. Nothing can seperate you from Him because he is there right now. If you need Him he is there. Talk to Him. Ask Him for help and guidance. He will not fail you...
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Date: Wed, Jan 7, 1998 at 22:23:27 (EST)
Poster: Rick
Email: rtaraday@hotmail.com
To: Andrew
Subject: Re: On closure
Message:
Here's the thing, Andrew. I'm not quick to question someone's experience. If you follow this forum much, you would see I'm somewhat slow at that.
>How can someone have an illusion of a full heart? It's either full or it's not. Even a baby knows this fact.
This could indicate yours is not full. Who knows if it's full, half-full, or only a quarter-full. Okay, so you're experiencing some good feeling, but you aren't a baby, and babies don't have the answer or they'd stay cheerful and cute as a button. But they don't. The thing is, Andrew, you're a full grown adult, and although being blissful is really nice, it's completely easy to miss the other parts of life. Interpreting your experience is one part of that. The interpretation that the cult of maharaji cultivates is brainwashing and it leads to revoking responsiblity and perceiving that maharaji is bringing you good feelings. The denial of emotions and bad experiences is a big part of practicing knowledge. The most frequent cause of having trouble with knowledge is that those feelings won't stay down and they haven't really been eliminated.
Andrew, I don't think my experience is beyond reproach, but I have made many mistakes interpreting my experience. After doing that alot I've had to face up to having smart days and stupid days.
>We have the responsibility to choose wisely what we are responsible for. Don't fall into the trap of measuring another by your standards, or thinking you know where someone else is coming from when you don't. That would be a rather pompous position to take, don't you think?
I don't think I know where you're coming from. I know nothing about you. But I do know about tricking myself, and I've tricked myself in the past into believing what you're expressing. The reason you're feeling pain isn't because you've turned your back on maharaji. You're feeling pain for many other reasons, all of them, I'm sure, very reasonable. Life throws everyone alot of things to sort out. That's what's happening to you.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 8, 1998 at 01:59:31 (EST)
Poster: Andrew
Email:
To: Sir David
Subject: Re: On closure
Message:
Nice response David. Good to hear some words of depth for a change instead of the usual arrogant suppositions and accusations that fly around here. Fact is we all yearn for a deeper reality; one that's real and not just a mental image. I often wonder why people here don't just go out and find out where it IS instead of laboring over where it's not.
It's a subtle thing but you can believe you have it when you really don't, and it takes a lot of honesty to discern the difference. How will you know remains a question better unanswered. There are no formulas that will work.
I'd personally like to hear more humility in the words that are exchanged on this forum. In the pursuit of truth, that's the only thing that bears fruit and has any credibility. I personally don't measure a person's credibility on this particular topic by the glibness of their smart-assed answers.
I appreciated the humility of your response... oops, ego stroke; so much for your humility. (BTW, I hope it wasn't just a nice philisophical bit of prose.)
AP
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Date: Thurs, Jan 8, 1998 at 02:15:00 (EST)
Poster: Andrew
Email:
To: Rick
Subject: Re: On closure
Message:
Rick wrote:
>The interpretation that the cult of maharaji cultivates is brainwashing and it leads to revoking responsiblity and perceiving that maharaji is bringing you good feelings. The denial of emotions and bad experiences is a big part of practicing knowledge. The most frequent cause of having trouble with knowledge is that those feelings won't stay down and they haven't really been eliminated.>
What the fuck are you talking about? You sound like a training cassette for a Ted Patrick home deprogramming kit. I've not given up responsibility for the things I have responsibility for, and I resent your know-it-all explanations indicating I have. And what emotions have I denied? Do you know? Please..., stop thinking your one-dimensional explanations for your life have any application to mine. As I said to David, a little more humility in the exchanges here would be very refreshing.
AP
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Date: Thurs, Jan 8, 1998 at 03:27:57 (EST)
Poster: op
Email:
To: Rick
Subject: Re: On closure
Message:
The denial of emotions and bad experiences is a big part of practicing knowledge. The most frequent cause of having trouble with knowledge is that those feelings won't stay down and they haven't really been eliminated.
a) Untrue. And b) untrue.
Grief and passion are very real parts of human experience, and they are not erased by Knowledge. However, getting over grief and perceiving a reality beyond the grip of passions are part of the advantages to practicing Knowledge.
A very very dear friend of mine died a little over a year ago. I am also very close to her daughter. Both mother and daughter had/have Knowledge. The death was not an easy one. No sliding into Samadhi under the smooth watchfulness of Holy Name.
The daughter has had a difficult year. She has young children and had looked forward to raising them with a loving grandmother, who is now no longer in the picture.
The father/husband (not a premie) has also had a difficult year. He is still ready to shoot God, if God were ever to dare show his face in this guy's presence. The absence of his wife left a scar that he doesn't want to heal.
The daughter, on the other hand, has spent some time alone, allowing herself to feel the grief but also going to that inner place where there is solace and relief. She has grown from the experience of losing her mother at such a young age. I think your first sentence would be a huge insult to her - a real one, not the kind of thrust and parry that usually takes place on this forum.
I also know someone whose son died two weeks before the Long Beach event. Maharaji mentioned this tragedy when he spoke the first night. This woman certainly did not hide her grief, nor was it diminished by her coming to the program. But she said, after a couple of days of being at Long Beach, 'This is the first time since it happened that I don't feel pain with every breath.' Your words would also be a caustic insult to her.
Knowledge is not an insulator. It is not meant to protect us from living. What it does for me is (among other things): give me perspective on the temporalness of events; allow me to fully feel my emotions; speed the healing process when 'bad' things do happen, by allowing me to focus on the more positive aspects of life.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 8, 1998 at 04:50:46 (EST)
Poster: Sir David
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: Andrew
Subject: Re: On closure
Message:
Written from the heart Andrew, from my experience.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 8, 1998 at 05:10:52 (EST)
Poster: Sir David
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: op
Subject: Re: On closure
Message:
I can understand Rick's view. Some of us, especiallu those of us who lived in ashrams, were urged to deny our emotions. This is fact. I know because I was in an ashram. Forcing such self denial is bound to leave a permanent view that Knowledge is about self denial and repression. It is an understandable result.
In fact, denying that Rick and others feel this way is urging further self denial. This is not good for humans. Tolerance and understanding of another's viewpoint and experience is the way to go. Rick did not mean to insult. He was just stating his experience.
Beside that, I thought your post was very relevant.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 8, 1998 at 10:15:30 (EST)
Poster: John K.
Email: kreilkamp@mindspring.com
To: op
Subject: Re: On closure
Message:
Seems to me that we keep uncovering a fundamental problem with this website. Which is the view proclaimed: that which is false to one must be false to EVERYone.
I can perfectly understand why people continue to follow m and practice k.
Muslims during ramadan for one month of every year do some unusual things.
The Jewish people practice some rituals during their holy days which make no logical sense.
As do the Christians.
So what's the big deal if some people believe that k comes from m or that m is their spiritual teacher?
Anyone whose life mission is to make sure that m is dethroned is fighting, IMHO, a doomed battle.
There will always be spiritual leaders who others percieve to be charlatans and fakes.
Some people derive great benefit from m and from k.
Who are any of us to deny it?
However, that said, this web site is really for those of us who went through the worship and practice and found it unfulfilling and lacking in some way.
I like talking about it and looking at it from this new perspective that the years away from it has given me.
Take for instance this discussion about whether or not certain bad experiences and emotions were denied.
I can remember quite clearly having a question and answer session with a 'famous' initiator and being discouraged from asking questions because anyone in the ashram should be beyond questions.
Now, I realize, that famous initiator was probably removed from his enlightened state by the master, but at that time it was widely believed that one should go beyond 'questions' and into the 'experience'. In other words, one should deny that there is such a thing as a bad experience and one should not recognize one's emotions because that could lead one right out the door of the ashram and out into 'the world'.
I think that just as the x's are fighting a losing battle in trying to de-program p's, all of you p's are fighting a losing battle in trying to convince the x's that 'all of that confusion was in the past'. And 'It's different now'.
My response to that is what kind of spiritual master allows that kind of confusion to go on for that many years?
And if he was so wrong then, why still listen?
But there's no accounting for taste.
I mean, I LOVE fruit cake. And at x-mas time i get to eat it all because everyone else HATES it.
So who's right?
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Date: Thurs, Jan 8, 1998 at 10:44:03 (EST)
Poster: Anon
Email:
To: op
Subject: Re: On closure
Message:
Dear OP.
it is what,18 years or whatever since the Ashrams closed? I still feel resentment and bitterness when I think of the REAL coercion that MJ directly and indirectly exerted on me in those days to initially move in, and then of the boring, dry and pleasure less life that I led as a result. I was truly faithful and stayed till the end. I don't think I will have any 'closure' on that part of my life unless Maharaji addresses the issue very sympathetically. I have never heard him do so. Anyway those precious years are gone and despite my efforts to integrate the 'grief' I don't think the feeling of personal loss will ever really heal. I feel my potential as a human was wasted as a result of his 'ashram experiment' That has made me lose faith in Maharaji and it is not surprising. Pure and simple.
I have seen this board evolve over the years and it changes nothing, it heals nothing, all the ranting and raving, expressions of our journeys and angry feelings... Only maharaji addressing these issues squarely himself will ever really touch the hurt that he caused. (whether accidentally or otherwise) Your words and experiences by which you seek to paint a softer picture do nothing but repeat the tired old party line, which always ends.."well, I'm sorry if that was your experience..too bad for you ..shucks.. it wasn't mine... It's not really Maharaji's fault...what can he do??.. it's your problem, I'm afraid"
That sort of talk OP, is a little narrow minded in the Grand Scheme of things. Basically , Maharaji doesn't seem to care..does he? We gave our lives to him, and suffered the consequences and he doesn't want to talk about it except to avoid taking any responsibility..Right?
It also adds plausibility to JW's assertion that Maharaji won't admit any liability for past mistakes for (ignoble) legal reasons.
I too have seen death and pain in my family, I have experienced the gamut of human emotions. Knowledge has got nothing to do with allowing me to feel my emotions. I don't need Knowledge to remind me of the temporalness of things for crying out loud either. NOR DO YOU! I venture to add. Knowledge IS however for a lot of premies another anaesthesia (like the dope most of them smoke) to avoid the pain of living. Definitely.
I don't say it's wrong to anaesthetise yourself to the pain but I can say from experience that I have a greater sense of reality now I have allowed myself to consider the whole thing a bit objectively, not less. Finally,what on earth do you think Maharaji has done, (seeing as you say Knowledge helps the healing process and focuses you on the positive) to address the healing process for those that have been hurt along the way? OK anyone can argue the benefits of meditation but that is NOT the whole picture. There have been tangible drawbacks in my life.I wish it were as rosy and perfect as you like to think. It is not. I think that knowledge is a belief system that persuades you to associate your positive feelings with Maharaji and suggests that your nice inner experience is tied up with 'getting Knowledge'. It is the real commitment that is demanded to him (whether it be traipsing off to programs or giving up your life in an ashram..whatever the flavour of the month) that seems unnecessary and potentially harmful.
Incidentally, the way you and M and premies suggest that Knowledge,Maharaji etc. helps you to be positive etc. .always is weighted with the implication that outside of the acceptance of this so-called Master process, there will be a less full relationship with God or a shallower realisation of the purpose of Life.
Maharaji encourages people to focus their emotion (devotion) on him at programs and in their lives. Thus it is easy to see how at programs one has a sense of emotional fulfilment which can be felt as a healing factor from the traumas of life. I have felt that also. I think it is the belief that is the critical healing factor. I have been to programs which I have left feeling more devastated and lost than when I went in. That was when I started to see some of the mechanisms that were in play for what they were. Have you seen 'The Wizard of Oz' lately. Remember how, at the end Dorothy catches the Stage Hypnotist behind the screen manipulating the lights and making the booming voice etc. The healing that is going on is more to do with the belief that people have in MJ than his purported power. What we need is him to admit his humanity and take all the mystery and magic out of the whole thing.To get real.We can still be positive, healed and happy and realistic without having to buy the belief system or suffer any of the emotional blackmail.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 8, 1998 at 10:49:10 (EST)
Poster: pushin'
Email: bb
To: op
Subject: and a pullin' (Re: On closure)
Message:
In long beach maharji talked about being pushed.
"never in my life have I walked anywhere, I've always
had been shoved"
"So, finding yourself where you don't want to be, the
pushing syndrome. Pushed,pushed,pushed,pushed,pushed.
All your life pushed."
Good that he is seeing that now, but honestly, we were
pushed to go to nightly satsang, pushed to leave family
and friends, pushed to enter the ashram, pushed to
look at our life as a servant for a master, pushed to
worship the master, pushed to find our happiness
in being with maharaji, pushed to find our happiness
in loving maharaji, ect.
Now look at this forum, left alone, this group shares
very little in common and expecially in the area of
how to look at the life and the power of life.
If in 76 he had gone with the direction that we are free
to find our own way and just feel your life and come
together for the effort of making the 'knowledge'
available to those in your area, we certainly would have
done that. and supported him doing that in poor countries.
Instead, he went on a huge push, very severe push,
that demanded our lives totally.
So now he recognises the element of push and it's
drawbacks, Rick is on target about the whole push
world and it's effects.
Even with his new recognition, he still has the master
thing going on and that is certainly a push factor
in many peoples lives.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 8, 1998 at 10:58:07 (EST)
Poster: The first and greatest
Email: b
To: Anon
Subject: Anon (Re: On closure)
Message:
wow anon, good to read you again.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 8, 1998 at 11:09:47 (EST)
Poster: the lighter side of
Email:
To: John K.
Subject: Re: op (Re: On closure)
Message:
I mean, I LOVE fruit cake. And at x-mas time i get to eat it all because everyone else HATES it.
Dear John K:
For a couple of weeks I've been reading your posts and wondering - where on earth can I find some common ground with this guy? We seem to be at opposite ends on everything.
Well, guess what? I love fruit cake too. When all the bickering is over and done with, we can sit down together at the bottom of the forum page and scarf some fruit cake.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 8, 1998 at 11:28:30 (EST)
Poster: op
Email:
To: Anon
Subject: Re: On closure
Message:
Dear Anon:
I have no reply for you. I just wanted to let you know - and I'm trying to find words here that won't sound clichéd or maudlin - that I really felt what you say, that I wish with all my heart that the answers would be forthcoming.
I also won't try to invent any answers. There are a few things that automatically start forming in my mind as I read your post, but I don't want to dance around you. Your healing obviously has to come from something not within my control.
The only comment I want to make is to reiterate what was said above, and keeps being repeated: different experiences for different people. I won't judge your experience, nor am I trying to get (any of) you 'back into the fold'. I can't see your whole picture. But neither can you see mine, or that of any of those who find fulfillment in practicing Knowledge (and being with M). I know I don't NEED M to remind me of the temporality of life - that was a major reason I sought out Knowledge in the first place. But for me, it's a wonderful way to be reminded - one of the main reasons being that (again for me) it offers not only the reminder, but also the solution.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 8, 1998 at 11:39:40 (EST)
Poster: the heavier side of
Email:
To: the lighter side of
Subject: Re: op (Re: On closure)
Message:
What, you think I'd share any with you, YOU who won't even identify yourself?
remember...when your talking about fruit cake - the heavier the better.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 8, 1998 at 23:52:11 (EST)
Poster: CD
Email:
To: Andrew
Subject: Re: On closure
Message:
Rick wrote:
>The interpretation that the cult of maharaji cultivates is brainwashing and it leads to revoking responsiblity and perceiving that maharaji is bringing you good feelings. The denial of emotions and bad experiences is a big part of practicing knowledge. The most frequent cause of having trouble with knowledge is that those feelings won't stay down and they haven't really been eliminated.>
What the fuck are you talking about? You sound like a training cassette for a Ted Patrick home deprogramming kit. I've not given up responsibility for the things I have responsibility for, and I resent your know-it-all explanations indicating I have. And what emotions have I denied? Do you know? Please..., stop thinking your one-dimensional explanations for your life have any application to mine. As I said to David, a little more humility in the exchanges here would be very refreshing.
AP
Watch out for the cult of music.
You might percieve that the music is bringing you good feelings.
It is nice that there is a deep good feeling built in.
We are lucky to be alive.
I see Maharaji as clarifying the responsibility of each individual to understand and achieve.
To experience what they are without the ideas that have taken over.
Because life itself is not an idea.
Looking deep inside is seeing what is really there besides all the beliefs.
That place exists as sure as this solid earth travles around the Sun in the middle of nowhere.
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Date: Fri, Jan 9, 1998 at 03:56:16 (EST)
Poster: op
Email:
To: the heavier side of
Subject: Re: op (Re: On closure)
Message:
What, you think I'd share any with you, YOU who won't even identify yourself?
Waaaaaah!!!
I want some fruitcake!!!
Actually, once the bickering is over, we'll ALL take off our masks and have a party. The rest of them can have strawberry shortcake.
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Date: Fri, Jan 9, 1998 at 06:36:12 (EST)
Poster: Anon
Email:
To: CD
Subject: Re:Watch out for music! (Re: On closure)
Message:
Watch out for the cult of music.
You might percieve that the music is bringing you good feelings.
I think CD has touched on another extremely interesting topic. Albeit not in the way that he perhaps intended!
Music (as demonstrated over the years and particularly in the last event) plays an enormous role in Maharajis world nowadays does it not?
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Date: Fri, Jan 9, 1998 at 12:15:13 (EST)
Poster: bftb
Email:
To: CD
Subject: Re: On closure
Message:
CD-I'm genuinely interested by what you write.Can you articulate more clearly exactly what "that place" is like.I don't mean vague references to it,I mean can you describe literally as if you were explaining it to someone who's never been to 'that place',just what you experience when you're there?What do you 'see'?Please try and define "that place" that is so often alluded to but never nailed down.
Thanks
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Date: Fri, Jan 9, 1998 at 12:20:58 (EST)
Poster: John K.
Email:
To: Anon
Subject: Re: Re:Watch out for music! (Re: On closure)
Message:
"Music (as demonstrated over the years and particularly in the last event) plays an enormous role in Maharajis world nowadays does it not?"
I don't know much about the music these days, other than what I heard on a few videos over a year ago. I didn't have any reaction to it, other than I thought it was kinda sappy and mellow, uninteresting. But then my tastes in music have changed pretty dramatically. I now worship Stephen Sondheim.
But then maybe I just wasn't feeling the devotion, you know?
When the camera is trained on HIM, and I don't find him all that interesting to stare at then that changes the experience of the music also.
When I used to worship the personality, I also worshipped the music. That godawful Jiva f'rnstance.
I think that God worship brings about great music, like J.S. Bach.
what happened re music in the last event?
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Date: Fri, Jan 9, 1998 at 13:43:17 (EST)
Poster: Mr Ex
Email:
To: John K.
Subject: Re: Re:Watch out for music! (Re: On closure)
Message:
When music is played whilst he is there, for hours sometimes, guess what happens when the devotees stare at
their beautiful Lord?
What I never realized is that if I'd stare at a bull on a stage for that many hours, I'd be devoted to a bull ....
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Date: Fri, Jan 9, 1998 at 14:47:15 (EST)
Poster: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net
To: John K.
Subject: Re: Re:Watch out for music! (Re: On closure)
Message:
'Music (as demonstrated over the years and particularly in the last event) plays an enormous role in Maharajis world nowadays does it not?'
I don't know much about the music these days, other than what I heard on a few videos over a year ago. I didn't have any reaction to it, other than I thought it was kinda sappy and mellow, uninteresting. But then my tastes in music have changed pretty dramatically. I now worship Stephen Sondheim.
But then maybe I just wasn't feeling the devotion, you know?
When the camera is trained on HIM, and I don't find him all that interesting to stare at then that changes the experience of the music also.
When I used to worship the personality, I also worshipped the music. That godawful Jiva f'rnstance.
I think that God worship brings about great music, like J.S. Bach.
what happened re music in the last event?
Music is often used form manipulative purposes, especially in religious situations. Anyone who has spent time in Pentecostal, Evangelical, or Fundamentalist churches may remember the use of music during the 'altar call;' the selections of music used are often instrumental (sorry!) in aiding the decision to 'ask Jesus into your heart.' I think the use of music in the ol' darshan line was an important part of the toe-kissing experience. If you listen to the devotional music of the early DLM days, you would be amazed at how sappy and manipulative it is.
I agree that great music such as Bach, Tallis, Byrd, and Palestrina are important to worship in a Christian context.
Michael
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Date: Fri, Jan 9, 1998 at 21:58:58 (EST)
Poster: CD
Email:
To: John K.
Subject: Re: Re:Watch out for music! (Re: On closure)
Message:
Hey, what's with the nastay jab at Jiva?
They had some nice songs.
Great music doesn't come out of rational discussions, thats for sure.
Is music now suspect?
CD
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Date: Sat, Jan 10, 1998 at 02:44:48 (EST)
Poster: John K.
Email:
To: CD
Subject: Re: Re:Watch out for music! (Re: On closure)
Message:
Your right, totally uncalled for, nasty jab, at Jiva, from me, I'm sorry, foolish, me.
it's very silly to look back at one's music tastes and criticize.
the only reason I liked a lot of music, prior to M, was the drugs I was taking.
or I could say the only reason I liked a lot of the music that I liked as a child, was because of the influence of my older siblings - their repeated playing of certain music - like the Weavers, the Kingston Trio, West Side Story - brainwashed me into singing along with the songs until I 'thought' I liked them.
I plan to sue them all for their totally uncalled for influence. Look, while I'm on the subject, I did not ask to be born the 6th child in a family of 8. There are all kinds of studies about birth order and trust me 6th born is not one that comes out normal or that anyone would want!
What were my parents thinking?
Why couldn't I have been born first?
Like I said, I do plan to sue, totally unfair, like my comment about Jiva. See, I wouldn't have made such an uncalled for remark about Jiva if I was a 1st born.
So, it's really not my fault.
So, get off my case man!
But seriously now, music does bring about feelings which are also totally uncalled for. I mean I can be just driving down the road and I will start weeping, or I will be overwhelmed with feelings of absolute love of god and the universe simply because of sounds coming out of my speakers.
What right do these music companies have to impose these sounds on my exposed psyche?
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Date: Sat, Jan 10, 1998 at 16:21:52 (EST)
Poster: CD
Email:
To: John K.
Subject: Re: Re:Watch out for music! (Re: On closure)
Message:
John,
I'm not on your case and you can have your box.
You are referred to a higher authority.
No problem with not liking Jiva. I just questioned the harsh adjective.
It is good that we do have things like music and a soul which defy logic.
You will just have to accept being number 6 and be thankful that it is a positive integer.
Hang in there and watch out for the Blue Cheer stuff,
CD
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Date: Sun, Jan 11, 1998 at 02:02:38 (EST)
Poster: a browser
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: On closure
Message:
I don't think he said that focusing on his wife and kids and a nice lifestyle causes him pain.
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Date: Mon, Jan 5, 1998 at 17:46:47 (EST)
Poster: bftb
Email:
To: Everyone
Subject: Important post
Message:
I just read a new post that is buried deep down here and I'm only calling attention to it in order that anyone who may be able to help this fellow out not miss his post.What he said I found quite alarming.Unfortunately I'm unable to answer his question.
look below for a post from 'Brother of 2-ex's' subject:'Re:I get blissed out' Jan 05th '98 17:27:23
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Date: Mon, Jan 5, 1998 at 18:06:42 (EST)
Poster: katie
Email: frostfinancial@ibm.net
To: bftb
Subject: Message from "Brother of 2 Ex's" (Re: Important post)
Message:
I just read a new post that is buried deep down here and I'm only calling attention to it in order that anyone who may be able to help this fellow out not miss his post.What he said I found quite alarming.Unfortunately I'm unable to answer his question.
look below for a post from 'Brother of 2-ex's' subject:'Re:I get blissed out' Jan 05th '98 17:27:23
Here is a copy of the message, which I think warrants its own thread - it's from "Brother of Two Ex's" (it's also in "I get blissed out", below):
Mon, Jan 05, 1998 at 17:27:23 (EST)
Email: frostfinancial@ibm.net
Message:
To you sir and all other ex's on the thread I would like to pose the following. Two of my younger brothers have been premies, J who experienced severe mental problems that finally culminated in suicide 9 years ago, and R who has led a rather normal existence for the last 20 years but recently had a complete nervous breakdown. My question is this: how many of you have 1)yourself, or 2)someone you know in DVL/EV experienced suicidal thoughts, psychotic episodes, dissociative feelings,etc. This is a serious request for information and I would appreciate particularly hearing about how you, or the person you know, were able to work through your problems, what kind of professional help was most effective, etc. If this forum is too public for your response, feel free to e-mail me with your thoughts. Thank you.
-Jim
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Date: Mon, Jan 5, 1998 at 21:07:30 (EST)
Poster: Mr. Oxymoron
Email: mu
To: bftb
Subject: Re: Important post
Message:
I just read a new post that is buried deep down here and I'm only calling attention to it in order that anyone who may be able to help this fellow out not miss his post.What he said I found quite alarming.Unfortunately I'm unable to answer his question.
look below for a post from 'Brother of 2-ex's' subject:'Re:I get blissed out' Jan 05th '98 17:27:23
come to think of it - I've had this urge to dance on stage in a krishna outfit, marry an older women and then fool around on her in front of my kids, take nice peoples money and then ignore them, make them squeeze their eyeballs out of thier sockets and not practice the techniques I show them, fly around the world butchering the english language and stay so drunk that my devotees think I'm blissed out of my gord. other than that, everything is normal
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Date: Tues, Jan 6, 1998 at 10:46:26 (EST)
Poster: Jim (The Brother of 2)
Email: frostfinancial@ibm.net
To: katie
Subject: Re: Message from 'Brother of 2 Ex's' (Re: Important post)
Message:
Thank you for reposting my original message, Katie. I was not aware it might get lost in the shuffle being way down on the board. I have already recieved one very helpful and supportive e-mail from a reader and would appreciate any help that you or other forum readers can offer to try and prevent another tragedy in my family. -Jim
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Date: Tues, Jan 6, 1998 at 10:52:51 (EST)
Poster: Jim (Brother of 2)
Email:
To: bftb
Subject: Re: Important post
Message:
Thank you, bftb, for calling attention to my message. If anyone has any information that can help me, I would truly appreciate it. -Jim
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Date: Mon, Jan 5, 1998 at 12:13:21 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Thanks, Jim.
Message:
A little bit down in the forum, Jim reluctantly admitted:
But, ahem ahem -- seriously I, too, used to enjoy the Word. ...for the most part, I kind of liked it
and yes, at times, I had some extremely rich feelings of peace.
Thanks for saying that, Jim. It makes all this trouble talking to you for over a year worthwhile.
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Date: Mon, Jan 5, 1998 at 16:11:48 (EST)
Poster: bftb
Email:
To: Mili
Subject: Re: Thanks, Jim.
Message:
Jim can't play with you today,he left for a little while.You knew that.Why are you getting so excited about what jim said about 'word experiences'?Lots of ex's have already said that knowledge,irrespective of Maharaji,is an effective meditation practice.
Mili,I posted to you below and in that post i asked you a question that you'd probably be able to answer.If you haven't already read it it's from bftb titled RE:OP,did mili ask your permission' and it was posted today jan.05th'97 at 11:17:40.
I'd love to hear your answer because I think it'll better help me understand where you were coming from in that whole 'ban the newsgroup' fiasco of yours.
thanks
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Date: Mon, Jan 5, 1998 at 16:15:20 (EST)
Poster: d@vid
Email: d@vid
To: Mili
Subject: Re: Thanks, Jim.
Message:
Masher peered out from under his stone and hissed: Thanks for saying that, Jim. It makes all this trouble talking to you for over a year worthwhile.
I wonder what that really means in troll talk?
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Date: Mon, Jan 5, 1998 at 16:16:44 (EST)
Poster: bftb
Email:
To: bftb
Subject: Re: Thanks, Jim.
Message:
I know,I know:jan 05th 1998-I'm stuck in the past,what can I say?
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Date: Mon, Jan 5, 1998 at 16:27:07 (EST)
Poster: d@vid
Email: d@vid
To: bftb
Subject: Re: Thanks, Jim.
Message:
bftp asked our favourite troll I'd love to hear your answer because I think it'll better help me understand where you were coming from in that whole 'ban the newsgroup' fiasco of yours.
Hey, bftp (ban fucking trolls directly?), far be it from me to state the blindingly obvious, but aren't you being just a little bit optimistic to ask Masher a question?
Perhaps you should start him off with something really simple, like 'does your brain really explode into a million tiny fragments when you lay your moist and quivering lips on Maharaji's white, wooly socks?'
He really loves those sort of questions. It brings a stiffening lump to his groin just thinking about it. Eh Mili?
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Date: Mon, Jan 5, 1998 at 16:57:30 (EST)
Poster: bftb
Email:
To: d@vid
Subject: Re: Thanks, Jim.
Message:
Yes,my naivete can be excruciatingly frustrating,can't it?
There is always always always hope.Always.
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Date: Mon, Jan 5, 1998 at 17:13:09 (EST)
Poster: d@vid
Email: d@vid
To: bftb
Subject: Re: Thanks, Jim.
Message:
bftb says optimistically Yes,my naivete can be excruciatingly frustrating,can't it? There is always always always hope.Always.
There's not a hope in hell that Mili will ever acknowledge that Maharaji can damage people's lives. Big M could literally do anything - stuff his children into a casserole and serve them to his followers as a test of their faith - and Mili would still believe the divine light shined out of his over-fed arse.
It's a classic symptom of a cult follower. The very fact that people say Maharaji is wrong, makes him right. Black really is white in Mili's eyes. At one time I felt sorry for him. Now I just feel contempt.
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Date: Mon, Jan 5, 1998 at 11:00:51 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: Everyone
Subject: Thanks, OP
Message:
Thanks, OP, for your candour. In this part of your post below, you admit that you can't find fault with m. At least not yet. Maybe after a bit more thinking (after all, an 'idol's mind....'):
'Okay - one criticism of M: his constant mispronunciation of Athens (he said it with a long A). I have no idea why he did it. Maybe he had a teacher when he was nine who mispronounced it, but I would have thought he'd correct that. But see, even here, I look for a reason, and feel there must be one.
I think you have to realize that I'm just not very judgmental in general. I know I'm harsh on you, but you know why. If M spouted venom at me every time I tried to speak, I would probably react the same way. Other than that, I'm pretty easy on people.
So when I think about M, I don't come up with any 'personality flaws'. That's why I asked for time, so that I could think and think about it until I could come up with something.
So I will continue thinking.'
Now, let me leave you with a few questions. I won't be able to respond but I WILL make a point of looking for your reply.
1) Does this not mean that, for all intents and purposes, you really think m has a perfect personality?
2) How do you define 'blind devotion'?
3) Is it possible, in your view, for someone to be 'blindly devoted' to someone and able to think, walk, talk and rationalize just like the rest of us?
4) How can you prove to yourself that you're not 'blindly devoted' to m?
5) If you CAN'T prove as much, how can you say that your defense of him is credible? In other words, if your scale is calibrated to always register 'okay' how can you say you're weighing anything?
Thanks for giving this your serious consideration.
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Date: Mon, Jan 5, 1998 at 17:43:30 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Thanks, OP
Message:
God, this is such a clear example of the programming -- The inability to view the leader objectively. I can understand it, but it doesn't make it any less sad. It seems OP "might" be trying to think, but it sure was hard for me. As I have said previously, it wasn't until some time AFTER I LEFT Maharaji that I could start to see him objectively and actually criticize him or in any way hold him responsible. It's probably the most difficult part of the programming to uproot. At least it was for me. As for "flaws" in Maharaji here are a few suggesstions:
1. He is overly into material possessions, always requiring the "best" of everything, and multiple luxuries when one would be more that sufficient (i.e. luxury automobiles).
2. He is prone to fits of rage that sometime leave his devotees, who are especially vulnerable to him, devestated.
3. He finds it difficult to make up his mind and stick to it. Hence, for example, he changed his mind constantly on how he wanted his Boeing 707 rennovated, thus causing extensive delays and a much higher cost.
4. In addition to the mispronunciation of "Athens" he never seemed to get the hang of "beginning" and he pronounced, repeatedly, "dinosaurs" as "Dina Shores" and also thought oil came from "Dina Shores."
5. He cannot dance, and is inept at rock and roll, and yet attempted to repeatedly try to do both in public.
6. He has poor muscle tone in the pectoral region, also emphasized by dancing bare-chested in public.
7. He watches altogether too much television, including watching soap operas "everyday" which always seemed to give him a very distorted view of the way the world, and the people in it, actually are.
8. He is unabashedly anti-intellectual and, (at least he used to), openly bash books and education.
9. He was very rude to his teachers in school, including telling off his wood shop instructor, telling him he was too good to have to take that class.
10. He named that poor kid "Satganga" and his own kid "Wadi Sue."
11. He is very wasteful of the worlds' resources in this time of global warming, by requiring his own private jet to travel around the world in, using a motorhome to travel between home and a program, and a helicopter between home and the airport, and using things like air conditioning for his own comfort, outside in places like Florida.
12. He is very paranoid and distrustful of open communication that can't be controlled. Hence he disdains the internet, democracy (I've heard him speak against this concept), question and answer sessions open to any subject, interviews with the press, and any disclosure whatsoever, of his finances, even to the people who are donating to him.
13. He is really bad about responding to letters, especially from disgruntled or questioning followers or former followers.
14. He appointed David Smith.
Anyway, that's a start. Any help to you OP?
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Date: Mon, Jan 5, 1998 at 10:49:08 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: Everyone
Subject: The Crazy Mind of Mili Living in Za
Message:
I AM outta here today. Promise. But first, Mili said:
'I don't understand you guys - you used to be liberal, open-minded... Now you come on as the most conservative of bigots. And, hey, you are doing it to people whom you even KNOW,personally.
Disgusting.'
Can anyone reason with this fool? Mili, would you accuse ex-Moonies or Scientologists of the sme 'discrimination' as they challenged their former cults? It seems that your idea is that anyone criticising any 'spiritual' leader they formerly followed is persecuting them so long as there are still some followers disturbed by the confrontation.
Mili, you really are ASTOUNDINGLY stupid. It's not hyperbolic to say that you've probably done more to embarrass m than anyone ever.
OP? What's your opinion?
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Date: Mon, Jan 5, 1998 at 11:41:06 (EST)
Poster: John K.
Email:
To: Jim
Subject: Re: The Crazy Mind of Mili Living in Za
Message:
Jim, how many days now has it been that you've been saying this is your last day of posting? What is going on here, psychologically speaking? I think there is a similarity between this continual threat of yours to m's alleged talk of resigning.
I realize you operate under the impression that some people LIVE for only your posts, and it is nice of you to help your devotees out by giving them some warning, but you have lost all credibilty with me. It just makes me laugh to read once again, that "after this post I AM outta here today."
Like, this is news!?
And, who the hell cares!?
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Date: Mon, Jan 5, 1998 at 11:45:20 (EST)
Poster: John K.
Email:
To: Jim
Subject: Re: The Crazy Mind of Mili Living in Za
Message:
Oh, I did want to also say re: the m**i situation, that if it would actually get him off this site forever and ever, I think all of us shold pitch in the money to get him his own forum page where he could do his own thing.
It could be a going away present for him from all of us.
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Date: Mon, Jan 5, 1998 at 00:39:32 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: Everyone
Subject: Public Relations -- Ros Sutton
Message:
I was just re-reading that newspaper article from Australia that had the headline: "Cult Leader Jets In To Recruit New Believers." I guess it came out at the time of the Amaroo "conference."
In that article, Ros Sutton was quoted as a spokesperson for Elan Vital. She says some pretty outragous things. For example, when asked about all the 70s lord of the universe stuff, Sutton says "that's all in the past now" because Maharaji had "completely disassociated himself from Divine Light Mission" because it (DLM) had all kinds of "Indian connotations."
This is an obvious spin that just changing organization names has changed everything. It was also funny that the reporter did some research and found that all that happened in Australia was a simple name change from Divine Light Mission to Elan Vital. [Some disassociation.] Also he pointed out the value of Maharaji's plane at $20-30 million through some nifty research.
Question: Who is Ros Sutton? I know Mr Ex mentioned her. Is she in charge of PR? Paid employee of Elan Vital? Outside PR firm?
Another question: Has this been the official spin, that by getting rid of DLM, which was just so cult-like, Maharaji freed himself from all the stuff that any reporter might recall from the 70s that might be just a bit embarrassing? If so, it's pretty lame, especially if there has been nothing but a name change. Did Maharaji pay Sutton to come up with that? He didn't get his money's worth. Anyone know details about this?
Also, I was gratified that the article noted the ex-premie site and that there were some people posting there who say M had "shattered their lives." Way to go guys!
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Date: Mon, Jan 5, 1998 at 05:05:24 (EST)
Poster: Mr Ex
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: Public Relations -- Ros Sutton
Message:
>Question: Who is Ross Sutton? I know Mr Ex mentioned her. Is she in charge of PR? >Paid employee of Elan Vital? >Outside PR firm?
She is definitely in charge of m’s PR. I don’t know if she gets a salary. She lives in UK and has her own business.
>Another question: Has this been the official spin, that by getting rid of DLM, which was >just so cult-like, Maharaji freed himself from all the stuff that any reporter might recall >from the 70s that might be just a bit embarrassing? If so, it's pretty lame, especially if >there has been nothing but a name change. Did Maharaji pay Sutton to come up with >that? He didn't get his money's worth. Anyone know details about this?
This is typical of how m’s policies and theories are childish and ridiculous.
These guys live on an other planet. Their perception of reality is totally distorted.
(That’s what took me to a therapist). Typical of cults as I now understand.
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Date: Mon, Jan 5, 1998 at 08:20:47 (EST)
Poster: Sir David
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: Mr Ex
Subject: Re: Public Relations -- Ros Sutton
Message:
Ros Sutton has been a premie since the early seventies. She is English. She is a good singer and musician in the old hippie mode.
I always remember her as a mother hippie type in a long skirt but that was a long, long time ago.
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Date: Mon, Jan 5, 1998 at 08:32:45 (EST)
Poster: Mr. Oxymoron
Email: mu
To: JW
Subject: Bopal India - Ros Sutton (Re: Public Relations -- Ros Sutton)
Message:
I was just re-reading that newspaper article from Australia that had the headline: 'Cult Leader Jets In To Recruit New Believers.' I guess it came out at the time of the Amaroo 'conference.'
In that article, Ros Sutton was quoted as a spokesperson for Elan Vital. She says some pretty outragous things. For example, when asked about all the 70s lord of the universe stuff, Sutton says 'that's all in the past now' because Maharaji had 'completely disassociated himself from Divine Light Mission' because it (DLM) had all kinds of 'Indian connotations.'
This is an obvious spin that just changing organization names has changed everything. It was also funny that the reporter did some research and found that all that happened in Australia was a simple name change from Divine Light Mission to Elan Vital. [Some disassociation.] Also he pointed out the value of Maharaji's plane at $20-30 million through some nifty research.
Question: Who is Ros Sutton? I know Mr Ex mentioned her. Is she in charge of PR? Paid employee of Elan Vital? Outside PR firm?
Another question: Has this been the official spin, that by getting rid of DLM, which was just so cult-like, Maharaji freed himself from all the stuff that any reporter might recall from the 70s that might be just a bit embarrassing? If so, it's pretty lame, especially if there has been nothing but a name change. Did Maharaji pay Sutton to come up with that? He didn't get his money's worth. Anyone know details about this?
Also, I was gratified that the article noted the ex-premie site and that there were some people posting there who say M had 'shattered their lives.' Way to go guys!
didn't she pull off the greatest pr deal with union carbide after the bopal india "accident"?
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Date: Mon, Jan 5, 1998 at 20:11:02 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: Mr. Oxymoron
Subject: Re: Bopal India - Ros Sutton (Re: Public Relations -- Ros Sutton)
Message:
/i>didn't she pull off the greatest pr deal with union carbide after the bopal india 'accident'?
I think that was Lee Atwater.
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Date: Sun, Jan 4, 1998 at 19:58:10 (EST)
Poster: Please Explain..
Email:
To: Mr Ex
Subject: Mr EX
Message:
I think you, Mr Ex, might elaborate a bit about this resignation rumour you started before it gets out of control. What exactly do you know? You quietly drop a bombshell and then vanish leaving another rumour that is open to wild speculation.
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Date: Sun, Jan 4, 1998 at 20:52:24 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email:
To: Please Explain..
Subject: Re: Mr EX
Message:
I think you, Mr Ex, might elaborate a bit about this resignation rumour you started before it gets out of control. What exactly do you know? You quietly drop a bombshell and then vanish leaving another rumour that is open to wild speculation.
I for one would appreciate it if you would give a name (or at least a pseudonym) before expecting someone to respond to you. BTW, Mr. Ex. said he would tell us more as soon as he got transcripts or videos of the conference in which Maharaji said that he might resign.
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Date: Mon, Jan 5, 1998 at 05:07:32 (EST)
Poster: Mr Ex
Email:
To: Please Explain..
Subject: Re: Mr EX
Message:
That’s exactly the point : the rumors amongts premies get easily out of control!
Who started the rumor? Not me! I just reported it from premies I know.
It looks like the rumor got also some ex’s (see post somewhere down).
From what I know (25 years in DLM & EV) is that that kind of rumor is no wild speculation. What usually happens is that maharaji says some ‘confidential’ things to some of the PAM. These guys can’t hold it, and the rumor spreads.
Then maharaji says few things over the same issue, and the rumor gets wild.
BTW : this was one of the issues (his retirement) of maharaji’s last private conference in Amaroo with instructors and big shots.
What’s funny is that transcripts and videos of Long Beach are available, PAM talked over the issue, and premies posting here don’t say what they know.
Very likely because there is no ‘official’ policy over this. Then they will repeat it ....
Be patient!
I don’t believe much in Daya being the next ‘Lord of the Universe’. When did she receive ‘knowledge’? From what I know, she never did.
BTW: your style is very close to our ex-friends Mili....
I think I shouldn't answer.
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Date: Mon, Jan 5, 1998 at 06:42:47 (EST)
Poster: me
Email:
To: Mr Ex and Katie
Subject: Re: Mr EX
Message:
BTW: your style is very close to our ex-friends Mili....
I think I shouldn't answer.
No, no, please continue..never mind me.
Thank you for your ample reply and please forgive me (Katie) for being another faceless coward. There is nothing sinister about my intentions, I am just a poor old premie seeking to get fill in some gaps of the picture, to make sense of my crazy youth.
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Date: Mon, Jan 5, 1998 at 09:56:03 (EST)
Poster: Mr Ex
Email:
To: me
Subject: Re: Mr EX
Message:
are they 2 of you?
i don't get the logic of your 2 messages
Which Katie are you?
or another one I know?
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Date: Mon, Jan 5, 1998 at 10:10:23 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Mr Ex²
Subject: Re: Mr EX
Message:
are they 2 of you?
i don't get the logic of your 2 messages
Which Katie are you?
or another one I know?
This is Katie H. - the one you know from here (see my e-mail address). I wrote the message with my name on it, but not the one that says "me". I think the other person may have just been referring to me in his/her message - it depends how you read it. Or maybe it's another Katie - who knows?
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Date: Mon, Jan 5, 1998 at 12:12:10 (EST)
Poster: John K.
Email:
To: Mr Ex
Subject: Re: Mr EX
Message:
Hey, let's start taking some personal responsibility for our words here. You were the one that introduced this idea to this page.
Here is what you originally posted:
"I’ve had some interesting news yesterday.
Maharaji said during the last conference in LA that he intends to resign.
He said various things regarding this, and his reasons."
Now you say that it was just a rumor? And it's not your fault because you didn't start it.
Hmmmmm, your credibility is slipping down the drain.
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Date: Mon, Jan 5, 1998 at 13:03:38 (EST)
Poster: Mr Ex
Email:
To: John K.
Subject: Re: Mr EX
Message:
What will be my punishment?
I'll go and watch these videos.
Rememember the story about M giving or not giving darsan these days? Unless you have enough details, even OP won't give any information. Now that we know that he gave darshan in such and such place, we get explanations about people 'paying respect' to their master, blabla ....
We'll have to cross check this information/rumor, and we'll see.
I might have to exile to Cratia .....
Where do you live M**i?
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Date: Mon, Jan 5, 1998 at 13:48:19 (EST)
Poster: John K.
Email:
To: Mr Ex
Subject: Re: Mr EX
Message:
It's interesting that you introduced 'punishment' into this conversation, because I did not say you should be punished. Do you want to be punished?
Do you think you did something wrong?
You can tell us all about it.
Don't worry, I, in my illimitable mercy, forgive you, oh mere imperfect human.
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Date: Mon, Jan 5, 1998 at 13:51:14 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: Mr Ex
Subject: Re: Mr EX
Message:
What will be my punishment?
I'll go and watch these videos.
Rememember the story about M giving or not giving darsan these days? Unless you have enough details, even OP won't give any information. Now that we know that he gave darshan in such and such place, we get explanations about people 'paying respect' to their master, blabla ....
We'll have to cross check this information/rumor, and we'll see.
I might have to exile to Cratia .....
Where do you live M**i?
Excellent point. All the ex-premies should remember that even the premies who post here and have "information" that would shed light on what we discuss, usually don't present it, unless they are directly confronted with facts the ex-premies find out about on their own.
And Mr. Ex you are very correct. Only after OP was dogged for days by me, with information about the darshan in Amaroo did she reluctantly discuss the fact that darsahn was given, despite the fact she likely had the information for months.
So you may be very correct that many premies are aware of what M said about resigning, either from people who were in the "big shot" meetings, or because they were sitting in front of M when he talked about it, but they probably will not present that information unless they are presented details gathered elsewhere.
Again, I don't know what, if anything, M actually said, nor his motives for doing so if he did. And I understand you are trying to get us more information, something not readily available in the tightly controlled Maharaji kingdom. Thanks.
JW
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Date: Tues, Jan 6, 1998 at 05:17:41 (EST)
Poster: Mr Ex
Email:
To: John K.
Subject: Re: Mr EX
Message:
>It's interesting that you introduced 'punishment' into this conversation,
>because I did not say you should be punished. Do you want to be punished?
>Do you think you did something wrong?
>You can tell us all about it.
I don’t want to be punished! I’m still in that paranoid cult/ex-cult syndrom.
Please Lord forgive me for all my sins and betraying you, I love you so much, I know you are so mercyful, please don’t change me into a frog, don’t send me to hell, please allow me to rest at your feet for ever, I promise you I won’t leave you EVER, I’m so weary and weak, please help me, .............. (I can imagine him looking at me and his smile ..............). What a BS!
And also : I left the cult and all my friends, I made some new friends here who might get angry at me because I told them some stupid rumors.
And a mixture of all this BS : this is where I’m at.
I'll get the tar and feathers!!!!
Luckily with some consciousness.
I’LL GET OUT OF THIS.
What I thought could be wrong for a moment was to deliver an information I got from a premie friend who has brain (obviously some very rare species). That guy attended the Long Beach event, and took m’s words for what he said.
It is very likley that m didn’t use any of these words like ‘retire’ or ‘resign’, but the feeling was there. What is also very likely is that those videos have been edited in such a way that you’ll miss it if you didn’t attend the event.
The ‘premies’ won’t speak about it because they’re under the shock. Like when he got married. Some of you remember? I do very well : I couldn’t even think of having a conversation over the issue.
[I did attend some event where he made a very precise address. He was speaking of himself as being the Almighty in a very rare way.
He had probably been carried away by brandy and/or toe-kissing.
That was so astounding that I was very excited to get the video to hear it again.
I got the video a few weeks later, and the main interesting part was of course gone! From an 1 hour & half satsang, they edited a 30 minutes BS video (anyway).]
That’s why I want to have a discussion with the guy, and with another one to confirm, if possible. Some people with knowledge have brain and you can have a discussion with them, believe it or not.
These people of course don’t want to be involved in this EV/world of knowledge BS.
The kind of people who come to enjoy the show and spend some good time without being carried away. I don’t know how they do that.
>Don't worry, I, in my illimitable mercy, forgive you, oh mere imperfect human.
Thank you for you mercy and compassion ....
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Date: Tues, Jan 6, 1998 at 10:52:33 (EST)
Poster: x-man
Email: bb
To: Mr Ex
Subject: and bobby (Re: Mr EX)
Message:
He has no option but to retire.
The larger he gets, the more he shows up on the media
radar screens the more people who have the stories
will show up. He knows his track record, and narccicism
aside, his only hope of maintaining the lord to lord
dynasty is to keep himself from being fully exposed.
This website is a wake up call to the skeletons in
his closet.
It's fine for some to spend thier lives in the involvement
of his world, I am not interested in altering folks,
but with his behavior of the last 30 years being so
laced with anger, fear, pretending and the rest,
it would be a great diservice to future children to
let history classify him as the lord.
Eastern types don't have a problem with the 'incarnation'
being totally contrary to right behaviour, they don't
care what 'lessons' the master 'needed' to give his
students. They don't believe in the reality of a
god and so what difference does it make WHO claims
to be 'realized'?
Bobby, do you see my problem with the whole eastern
realization thing? There is no standards, there is no
consequences, the self proclaimed 'realized' soul always
fraudulantly claims to have arrived at the god point
as if it is an unoccupied position.
Vacancy--- room at the top--- face it, easterners are as
athiestic as dawkins.
So many 'methods' are supposidly good to getr to god.
I say the whole premise, the whole basis of the entire
religious 'tradition' of those type of views are incorrect.
You are not here to 'assume' that you are 'it'.
You are not here to imagine and 'create your own 'godhead',
You can't hum or chant your way into the power and
elbow the larger thing aside. That is fantasy.
I have to go.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Tues, Jan 6, 1998 at 10:53:05 (EST)
Poster: x-man
Email: bb
To: Mr Ex
Subject: and bobby (Re: Mr EX)
Message:
He has no option but to retire.
The larger he gets, the more he shows up on the media
radar screens the more people who have the stories
will show up. He knows his track record, and narccicism
aside, his only hope of maintaining the lord to lord
dynasty is to keep himself from being fully exposed.
This website is a wake up call to the skeletons in
his closet.
It's fine for some to spend thier lives in the involvement
of his world, I am not interested in altering folks,
but with his behavior of the last 30 years being so
laced with anger, fear, pretending and the rest,
it would be a great diservice to future children to
let history classify him as the lord.
Eastern types don't have a problem with the 'incarnation'
being totally contrary to right behaviour, they don't
care what 'lessons' the master 'needed' to give his
students. They don't believe in the reality of a
god and so what difference does it make WHO claims
to be 'realized'?
Bobby, do you see my problem with the whole eastern
realization thing? There is no standards, there is no
consequences, the self proclaimed 'realized' soul always
fraudulantly claims to have arrived at the god point
as if it is an unoccupied position.
Vacancy--- room at the top--- face it, easterners are as
athiestic as dawkins.
So many 'methods' are supposidly good to getr to god.
I say the whole premise, the whole basis of the entire
religious 'tradition' of those type of views are incorrect.
You are not here to 'assume' that you are 'it'.
You are not here to imagine and 'create your own 'godhead',
You can't hum or chant your way into the power and
elbow the larger thing aside. That is fantasy.
I have to go.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Sun, Jan 4, 1998 at 17:34:29 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: Everyone
Subject: Usenet's reply to Mili
Message:
Here's how the sysop at Usenet replied to Mili:
'>I am astonished by your tactless, brusque and insensitive response.
>
>I suppose it is too much to expect of a company that tolerates
>dissemination of child pornography on the Internet to have a sympathetic
>ear for the plight of minority spiritual communities.
Fucking clueless troll. Followups set accordingly.
John
- -- '
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Date: Mon, Jan 5, 1998 at 07:40:27 (EST)
Poster: d@vid
Email: d@vid
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Usenet's reply to Mili
Message:
Fucking clueless troll.
I'd say that was an insult to trolls!
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Date: Mon, Jan 5, 1998 at 08:39:45 (EST)
Poster: Mr. Oxymoron
Email: mu
To: d@vid
Subject: Troll Kings Response to the Usenet Statement (Re: Usenet's reply to Mili)
Message:
Fucking clueless troll.
I'd say that was an insult to trolls!
milli never has been (hee hee - "has been" sorry troll humor) nor do we find him on our rosters of troll, fairy, waif, nymph, pixie, gephling, sprite, gumph, sterg, lyre or borngue.
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Date: Sun, Jan 4, 1998 at 17:21:13 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: Everyone
Subject: Bobby's Sensitivity Workshop
Message:
'People here spend inordinate amounts of time blaming Maharaji for every little thing. He's too fat, he's too rich, he doesn't do anything for others, he fucked up our lives. I've come to terms with Maharaji in my own way and I've stated clearly where I stand. Maharaji doesn't bother me. In my opinion, there are more than enough other individuals in the world far more culpable than Maharaji. I don't care to join in the group-dump attacks on Maharaji. I'm just not interested in that kind of sensationalistic group vent.
Go ahead, do your venting, but don't direct at aggression to individuals who question your view or who try to come to terms with their premie experience in their own way.'
Bobby has apparently left the building. Anyone who pre-registered for his Beyond Sensitivity Seminar should realize that this next step is a difficult one. You must take it on your own. There are no refunds.
The real value in life is beyond words. Words, if you will, are misleading price tags. They can be used postively -- to impress, beguile or comfort like strange potions of attunement and transcendence. The can also be used negatively -- to challenge or tease. Bobby's path is too narrow for such ways. Indeed, Bobby's path is too narrow to turn around on. That's why he must step so carefully. Bobby's path is not the kind of place one wants to admit one has made a mistake. It's really that narrow.
Anyone interested in learning more about Bobby's path can study extensively like he has. Om sought pot got hotu trot!
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Date: Sun, Jan 4, 1998 at 16:52:46 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: Everyone
Subject: Pseudonyms are a bad habit
Message:
I was miffed when I saw someone replying to a post made directly to me by answering as 'Lord James III'. What the hell's going on here? Are we actually trying to confuse each other, lose our voices, dillute the currency of our individual expression and all that?
Personally, I think we should all post under our own names. Obviously, it allows people to know whose post their reading and one would think our getting to know each other a bit can only be a good thing over time. Avoiding anonymity also sends a message of sorts to m and his premies: we're not embarrassed or afraid to speak out about him.
Bill, in particular, has chosen to not identify himself when he posts. Well that would be fine if he was the only one who did that. We'd still know Bill's 'non-signature' signature. Unfortunately, things don't work that way, others follow his lead and, before we know it, discussion itself becomes unnecessarily hamstrung. Please, either use your own name or, if you're not willing to do that, pick a tag and stick with it. Whatever you do, please don't impersonate me or anyone else. I promise to do likewsie.
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Date: Sun, Jan 4, 1998 at 17:22:57 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Pseudonyms are a bad habit
Message:
I was miffed when I saw someone replying to a post made directly to me by answering as 'Lord James III'. What the hell's going on here? Are we actually trying to confuse each other, lose our voices, dillute the currency of our individual expression and all that?
Personally, I think we should all post under our own names. Obviously, it allows people to know whose post their reading and one would think our getting to know each other a bit can only be a good thing over time. Avoiding anonymity also sends a message of sorts to m and his premies: we're not embarrassed or afraid to speak out about him.
Bill, in particular, has chosen to not identify himself when he posts. Well that would be fine if he was the only one who did that. We'd still know Bill's 'non-signature' signature. Unfortunately, things don't work that way, others follow his lead and, before we know it, discussion itself becomes unnecessarily hamstrung. Please, either use your own name or, if you're not willing to do that, pick a tag and stick with it. Whatever you do, please don't impersonate me or anyone else. I promise to do likewsie.
I agree, Jim. But I don't have a problem with people using pseudonyms if they use the same one all the time (for example "bftb", or "Mr. Ex".) Or if they use a nickname to avoid confusion, such as "Sir David". Bill is an exception, obviously, because I don't think it's possible to get him to use the same pseudonym each time. He has started putting "bb" in his e-mail address so we can tell who he is, especially since there's a lot of bill burke wannabees sprouting up. (BTW, I sometimes post under the name Kathryn when answering Bill, just so everyone knows. That's not a pseudonym.)
I personally don't like to answer posts from people who use all kinds of different pseudonyms - it's sort of like answering crank phone calls. I try to avoid it whenever possible.
P.S. What "Lord Jim III" post are you talking about? Did you ever use "Lord Jim III", or is that completely someone else?
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Date: Sun, Jan 4, 1998 at 17:27:05 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: Katie
Subject: Re: Pseudonyms are a bad habit
Message:
completely someone else. I am thinking of posting as 'Bobby' though. I think I've found my inner child. No, just kidding! I'm definitely not into mixed identities here.
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Date: Sun, Jan 4, 1998 at 17:45:27 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email:
To: Jim
Subject: "Lord Jim III" is not Jim (Re: Pseudonyms are a bad habit)
Message:
completely someone else. I am thinking of posting as 'Bobby' though. I think I've found my inner child. No, just kidding! I'm definitely not into mixed identities here.
Glad you're just kidding, Jim. It may be more ironically humorous (and sad) than you know. That person sure posted some inflammatory messages, by the way.
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Date: Sun, Jan 4, 1998 at 15:16:26 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Everyone
Subject: Hey Maharaji! Let the premies post.
Message:
Dear Maharaji - If you're reading this, I request that you allow your premies to have their own newsgroup or forum back. The lack of any place to express themselves on the Internet is apparently driving some premies crazy: specifically one Milivoj K., who you may or may not be aware of. This resultant craziness (exemplified by repeated attempts to cancel usenet groups used by former premies) is resulting in some bad publicity for you and your followers. So why not let the premies have their own place to post again?
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Date: Sun, Jan 4, 1998 at 13:50:47 (EST)
Poster: Rick
Email: rtaraday@hotmail.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Tar and Feathers Link
Message:
Sorry here's the link
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Date: Sun, Jan 4, 1998 at 14:53:11 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email:
To: Rick
Subject: Re: Tar and Feathers Link
Message:
Sorry here's the link
It's am interesting idea, Rick (and whoever did the page did a good job BTW), but I am afraid it might backfire in Mili's case. He obviously LOVES attention, and will take negative attention of any kind if he can't get positive attention. He'd absolutely adore it, I'm afraid.
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Date: Sun, Jan 4, 1998 at 20:02:02 (EST)
Poster: Rick
Email: rtaraday@hotmail.com
To: Katie
Subject: Re: Tar and Feathers Link
Message:
Sorry here's the link
It's am interesting idea, Rick (and whoever did the page did a good job BTW), but I am afraid it might backfire in Mili's case. He obviously LOVES attention, and will take negative attention of any kind if he can't get positive attention. He'd absolutely adore it, I'm afraid.
Good point, Katie. It hadn't occurred to me, but I think you're right.
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Date: Sun, Jan 4, 1998 at 13:47:11 (EST)
Poster: Rick
Email: rtaraday@hotmail.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Tar and Feathers
Message:
A few months ago, someone who was posting to one of the diet newsgroups, got caught posting to the barbecue newsgroup. Although she was a self-righteous vegetarian, she was found offerring her favorite chicken recipe. One of the other posters made a web page roasting her. I think Mili has earned this honor. Does anyone have the time to make a Mili page?
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Date: Sun, Jan 4, 1998 at 13:34:53 (EST)
Poster: Seymour
Email: seymour@rocketmail.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Moving On...
Message:
I understand that the purpose of the site is to give potential premies/aspirants another perspective of knowledge and that there are many ex-premies, having given so much, feeling understandably
bitter towards G.M. for misleading them. But should we not also include advice for ex-premies trying to find some new direction in their lives.
There are many of us who have been guilty of enticing aspirants into receiving knowledge - yet who would not expect vengeance from any of those who eventually found the whole thing disappointing.
Although it is only natural to be angry I think some of us would like to forget all about DLM, Elan Vital etc. and move towards something else.
Before we were premies we all were searching for some sort of improvement in out lives ( and as ex-premies have shared the same traumatic experience of getting out). If we were sensitive we needed
a way to cope with a harsh world, or we wanted to understand our place in the universe, or to increase courage, virtue, wisdom etc.
I am sure that all these ambitions are still there with many of us even though we may have wasted a few years. I feel as vulnerable as when I came to knowledge - perhaps more so. Having experienced quite a few of life’s hard knocks as a teenager ( accidents, illness, family deaths, failed exams….) helped to make me a coward constantly worrying about how to cope with the next crisis that was sure to come along. Knowledge, real or not, gave protection against the future and by surrounding you with this cotton wool reduced the fear and pain that otherwise looms large each day. If someone you cared about died, or your wife left you, or your business went bust, or you flunked your exams, or were betrayed by a close friend ……. You always had G.M. (or thought you did). An increase in satsang, service, meditation and going to festivals seemed the only thing to do to reduce the pain/grief/disappointment.
and it worked.
Since becoming disillusioned with knowledge I have become a reluctant Humanist - but there is no comfort in it in times of stress and to quote from a play (‘ART’ which was o.k. but I wouldn’t recommend it unless someone gives you free tickets):-
"Nothing beautiful or inspiring has ever come out of rational discourse" - and that’s about all you get as a secular humanist - no magic, supernature, mysticism, faith moving mountains or even ‘Love is all you need’ ( which is not very rational but I still like to think Love is the best thing you can have)
I think it a noble cause to warn people who are getting into more than they bargain for but , being selfish, my primary concern is not in hearing about G.M’s mistress, his money, his favourite tipple, what he claims to be or whether he is going to resign. I am more interested in hearing how all of you ex-premies out there copy with this precarious existence and what, if anything, you have found to replace the protection of the cotton wool and the feeling that you are discovering and fulfilling the purpose of your lives. I am sure the let down of knowledge has not put everyone of trying to raise consciousness, self improvement or just the simple wish to be happy and wise.
It is unlikely that I will be able to tune in to the forum for a few days or so but I would be grateful for any responses and will read and reply to all when I next get to the computer - provided the messages have not disappeared into cyberspace.
Happy New Year to all,
Seymour
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Date: Sun, Jan 4, 1998 at 14:23:06 (EST)
Poster: Sir David
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: Seymour
Subject: Re: Moving On...
Message:
I got into the horse racing business in the mid eighties as I figured it was a good business to make money in. Since 1989 I've been in the adult video business and I sell and make adult videos. I only sell and make films with girls in for legal reasons here in the UK which I'm sure you'll be aware of.
It makes a nice change from SS&M (sat, serv & med) to have beautiful women phoning me up and begging me to let them come round my house and take their clothes off in front of me. Like I said to Jim last week, it's a tough job having stunning beauties stripping off and playing with themselves and each other while I'm forced to watch it, armed only with my camera; it's a tough job, but someone's got to do it!
I have studied several self improvement methods and there is one which I've found to be very, very effective. It works directly onto the subconscious and requires no effort to practise at all. I can email you details of this if you send me an email.
Life hasn't been easy for me but I have some good friends now and three children who are a joy. Life never is easy but I've found if you hang in there, things make more and more sense and appreciation of your part to play in life, grows and grows.
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Date: Sun, Jan 4, 1998 at 15:52:28 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: Seymour
Subject: Re: Moving On...
Message:
What a big question. I, too, am a 'reluctant Humanist.' Indeed, I'm sympathetic with the views of Martin Gardner, the man credited as the 'father' of the modern skeptical movement. He calls himself a 'fideist', someone who believes in God as a prime mover just because it feels good.
Unfortuanately, I'm even more sympathetic with Dawkins, who is an aetheist because the more we look the more with see life that not only needs to God to complete the formula but also the 'strategic advantage' belief in a deity might have provided us in our evolution to date. Dawkins finds it exciting. I agree. There just isn't much soalce in knowing that, besides a few people I've connected with in life, no one and nothing 'out there' cares about me. That's the rub. It was much more fun flirting with Terrence McKenna's ideas (i.e. cosmic aliens planting psychotropic foods in our pathway like 1950s 3D glasses so we could see the whole picture), or Lilly's or Pearce's or m's or the several other 'spiritual' thinkers and teachers I got into. Those were all fun but, I have to admit, Dawkins and his colleagues are much more persuasive.
I get a kick out of turning people onto evolutionary theory, as little as I understand it. It IS exciting but, let's not fool ourselves, it offers none of the personal comfort religion does. Oh well. Too bad. That's life.
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Date: Sun, Jan 4, 1998 at 15:56:38 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Moving On...
Message:
What a big question. I, too, am a 'reluctant Humanist.' Indeed, I'm sympathetic with the views of Martin Gardner, the man credited as the 'father' of the modern skeptical movement. He calls himself a 'fideist', someone who believes in God as a prime mover just because it feels good.
Unfortuanately, I'm even more sympathetic with Dawkins, who is an aetheist because the more we look the more with see life that not only needs to God to complete the formula but also the 'strategic advantage' belief in a deity might have provided us in our evolution to date. Dawkins finds it exciting. I agree. There just isn't much soalce in knowing that, besides a few people I've connected with in life, no one and nothing 'out there' cares about me. That's the rub. It was much more fun flirting with Terrence McKenna's ideas (i.e. cosmic aliens planting psychotropic foods in our pathway like 1950s 3D glasses so we could see the whole picture), or Lilly's or Pearce's or m's or the several other 'spiritual' thinkers and teachers I got into. Those were all fun but, I have to admit, Dawkins and his colleagues are much more persuasive.
I get a kick out of turning people onto evolutionary theory, as little as I understand it. It IS exciting but, let's not fool ourselves, it offers none of the personal comfort religion does. Oh well. Too bad. That's life.
'needs to God' should be 'needs NO God.'
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Date: Sun, Jan 4, 1998 at 18:37:39 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Sir David
Subject: Re: Moving On...
Message:
Dear David - you may have figured that I would have a hard time not answering your post - espeically the part about how you make a living. I was somewhat upset after I read it the first time, since I like you very much (what I know of you on the Internet, anyway.) I suppose it's better for these women to work for someone like you, who is (I think) a genuinely kind person, than some of the other people who are in the adult movie business.
I'd just like to point out that the reason the beautiful women are calling you up and begging to take their clothes off in front of you is because they need the MONEY - just like you do. Maybe they even need to support a family too, or maybe they're trying to pay for college, or maybe they think that they can become a legitimate actress by doing this. At any rate, I think it's rather sad, and I hope that you do encourage these women to be prepared to find another form of livelihood when they become older. No one wants to see nude films of women over a certain age, and I hope these women know this.
Also, I know that you love your daughters very much, and I hope that you are giving them some other ideas of what they can do when they grow up. My eight-year-old niece would like nothing better than to be one of the Spice Girls at this point, but my sister and I are constantly trying to give her OTHER role models, just in case she doesn't make it big as a pop star. I hope that your daughters have other role models as well. And I really hope (hope this isn't a huge insult) that you don't feel that it's all right for your daughters to be in adult videos when they grow up.
David, I have come to like you very much during our correspondence both on and off this forum, so I hope you can take what I have said in the spirit in which it was intended. These are my feelings, and if you feel differently, that's OK.
Take care,
Katie
P.S. There is a book called "Reviving Ophelia" that talks a lot about raising daughters (mostly teenage daughters). It was quite popular here in the States, and I highly recommend it. I'd be happy to send you a copy if you can't get one in the UK.
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Date: Sun, Jan 4, 1998 at 18:44:57 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: Katie
Subject: Re: Moving On...
Message:
Oh Katie, really is it so bad if people trade a little money for pleasure and titillation? What principle's at play and, oh my God, talk about digression!
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Date: Sun, Jan 4, 1998 at 18:56:59 (EST)
Poster: Katie (digression)
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Moving On...
Message:
Oh Katie, really is it so bad if people trade a little money for pleasure and titillation? What principle's at play and, oh my God, talk about digression!
Dear Jim - I didn't say it was so BAD. All I said is that people should keep it in mind that the "titillation" is being done for MONEY. I also think that people who do this kind of work (the women, not David) should be aware that they're going to have to get some other kind of job sooner or later. Over 30 nudes definitely aren't as marketable, unless the person is exceptional in some way. If a woman can make a killing acting in porno films and live off the earnings for the rest of her life, then fine for her. Most women can't do this, and would do well to put some of their earnings to job training of some sort.
Also, I don't want my niece stripping on stage or acting in porn movies - do you want your daughter to do that? If it's what they really want, then it's OK, but in many cases it's an easy but degrading way to make money.
Sorry, David!
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Date: Sun, Jan 4, 1998 at 21:38:46 (EST)
Poster: Sir David
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: Katie
Subject: Re: Moving On...
Message:
Well I'll check that book out although my daughters are only five and six at present. Before I got into the adult movie business here in Britain I used to have a different view to the one I have now. Remember, I'm not making hard core videos so I'm not trying to get a girl to go with another guy. These girls LOVE making videos. I don't have to try to pursuade them and they often get very disappointed if I tell them I can't film them just yet.
Making money out of this business is not easy. I wish it was. It takes years to develope all the right contacts and get a good name in the business. The photographers who are just in it to try and scew as many models as possible don't make much money and don't last very long. Also you have to sell the videos and that takes knowledge of business and anyone who's in business will know that it might look easy to someone on the outside looking in but it is a cut throat survival of the fittest game when you're on the inside. In business, nobody does you any favours. If you can't swim, you sink and nobody will save you. The customers will not buy the product either just to do you a favour. So you have to be good or else!
If I look at all the models I've filmed over the past few years, they're all on friendly terms with me and they've never done anything they regret. They all will want me to film them again (if they're still in the business) and since they're exhibitionists by nature, they're very pleased to do more work for me. And believe it or not, girls of over thirty and over forty are very popular with my clients.
This is a happy business. Girls don't turn up all freaked out for a shoot. We often have a good laugh and a nice chat and the filming is all part of an enjoyable day. They're glad because they get paid for doing what they enjoy doing, I'm glad because I have a business and my customers are more than pleased to pay a nominal fee for some great videos that they can enjoy.
This business really opened my eyes to people. It showed me happy, liberated and uninhibitted people. And it is a niche which an unconventional guy like myself easily adapts to. I thought at the beginning, "I could never do THAT business," But I'm human and so are they and they're all great girls.
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Date: Sun, Jan 4, 1998 at 22:04:24 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email:
To: Sir David
Subject: Re: Moving On...
Message:
Well I'll check that book out although my daughters are only five and six at present. Before I got into the adult movie business here in Britain I used to have a different view to the one I have now. Remember, I'm not making hard core videos so I'm not trying to get a girl to go with another guy. These girls LOVE making videos. I don't have to try to pursuade them and they often get very disappointed if I tell them I can't film them just yet.
Making money out of this business is not easy. I wish it was. It takes years to develope all the right contacts and get a good name in the business. The photographers who are just in it to try and scew as many models as possible don't make much money and don't last very long. Also you have to sell the videos and that takes knowledge of business and anyone who's in business will know that it might look easy to someone on the outside looking in but it is a cut throat survival of the fittest game when you're on the inside. In business, nobody does you any favours. If you can't swim, you sink and nobody will save you. The customers will not buy the product either just to do you a favour. So you have to be good or else!
If I look at all the models I've filmed over the past few years, they're all on friendly terms with me and they've never done anything they regret. They all will want me to film them again (if they're still in the business) and since they're exhibitionists by nature, they're very pleased to do more work for me. And believe it or not, girls of over thirty and over forty are very popular with my clients.
This is a happy business. Girls don't turn up all freaked out for a shoot. We often have a good laugh and a nice chat and the filming is all part of an enjoyable day. They're glad because they get paid for doing what they enjoy doing, I'm glad because I have a business and my customers are more than pleased to pay a nominal fee for some great videos that they can enjoy.
This business really opened my eyes to people. It showed me happy, liberated and uninhibitted people. And it is a niche which an unconventional guy like myself easily adapts to. I thought at the beginning, 'I could never do THAT business,' But I'm human and so are they and they're all great girls.
Well, David, it's hard for me to believe, but I WILL take your word for it. I'm sure you are a nice guy to work for, by the way, if one wants to do that kind of work.
By the way, I didn't want to be judgemental, and I hope I didn't come off as such. I am sure you know that women can get in some bad situations doing the kind of work that you describe, so I did want to express my feelings about some of the things you said.
Take care,
Katie
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Date: Sun, Jan 4, 1998 at 23:01:25 (EST)
Poster: Sir David
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: Katie
Subject: Re: Moving On...
Message:
I guess girls can get into problems in any business but this business is pretty safe. I've never heard of anything bad happening to any girl in the video business. Britain is a small country and the adult video business does not hold any secrets for those who are in it. The few successful professional photographers are all known by the girls and known to each other. Nothing goes unnoticed.
Regarding girls moving on to other things. Some girls get into TV and acting as well. Quite a lot are singers and a few are students. Quite a few girls recently have been coming over from Russia and the old Eastern Bloc countries such as where Mili lives. They can earn more in a day here than they can make in a month in their country. Contrary to popular belief, the girls who shoot videos are not lured into prostitution. That's a different game entirely.
I didn't expect people here to approve of my business. I don't disapprove of it but that's me. I'm all for a liberal life. I fully expect some people will disapprove of the business, but what the hell, I don't need anyone's approval. Well I'm really digressing now. I guess that's why I'd make a very bad premie, always chit chatting about anything and everything to anybody...
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Date: Mon, Jan 5, 1998 at 00:08:49 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: Sir David
Subject: Re: Moving On...
Message:
Is the hardcore porography vido business illegal in Britain? I didn't think it was. And, speaking of the problems people can get into in the hard core pornography business, as opposed to the business you apparently do, did you see Boogie Nights? Excellent film, but very depressing.
By the way, men can get exploited in pornography as well as women.
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Date: Mon, Jan 5, 1998 at 00:17:24 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: Secular/Theistic Humanists
Subject: Re: Moving On...
Message:
I don't see the inconsistency in being a secular humanist, believing in evolution and also believing in god. I guess I now see god as just more removed from my day to day life. I don't see any inconsistency with a sort of Hume view (and I think Martin Gardner) that god just set the whole process in motion, or allowed it to occur. Aristotle'sm "unmoved mover." Now, the issue is whether "god" cares if "good" or "bad" things happen to you and/or will intervene to change things in a person's life and I don't believe he or she does either.
If I have to believe in something that isn't true just to "feel better" about life, I would rather not, especially because of what I've gone through with a charlatan guru, but I don't blame people who do, unless that gets imposed on other people, causes people to become overly narrow-minded, or the belief system deceptively entraps people.
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Date: Mon, Jan 5, 1998 at 07:29:33 (EST)
Poster: Sir David
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: JW
Subject: Re: Moving On...
Message:
Yes Joe, hardcore porn is illegal in Britain. It's not in the rest of Europe and the British porn market is a lot different to Continental Europe.
I've not seen that film you mentioned although I've seen similar ones portraying a sordid industry where girls get abused. That's not the case actually. Porn is a professional business. The people who make their money from it all know each other. In Europe where it's bigger than here, we have established companies making the films. If there were any complaints or accusations made by girls then the companies would get into serious trouble and have to cease trading. The girls and guys have got to want to do it otherwise it shows on the videos. The people in the industry are all well known and the porn actors appear again and again in different videos. There's no coersion or abuse.
From what I've seen and heard of the American porn industry it's the same as in Europe. Legal and above board with no hidden atrocities. Our friend Tracy Lords claimed that she was coerced into making porn films. But she said that when she left the business and tried to get into straight movies. It was utter rubbish. She was so eager to get into the porn films that she lied about her age and produced fake documents so her true age wasn't revealed.
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Date: Mon, Jan 5, 1998 at 10:47:47 (EST)
Poster: John K.
Email:
To: Seymour
Subject: Re: Moving On...
Message:
excellent topic mr. seymour, interesting the first response was basically to photograph nude women.
there is the idea that everyone should follow their bliss. and maybe bliss has a bad connotation for many of us, but the point is find something you believe in and the more passionately you believe in it, the better.
i belong to a unitarian universalist church which is very humanist and very dull, but i meet people that i like. i certainly don't go to church to worship god, (if i wanted to do that i'd just look in the mirror)
i go for the social contact with other human beings.
it's very important to find people who think like you do. So, that would be my first suggestion to someone actually trying to leave the world of m and k etc.
Go to some churches or join a civic group (I know this sounds not very exciting) and try to find people that you can relate to that are engaged in activities that offer some meaning. habitat for humanity is one that does real service in the community. and there's plenty of others to.
I was very involved with the teen youth group at our church for several years, and had a great time.
And you don't have to join a church to work with teens or work with people who need help. Most cities offer programs that put you in contact with people who need help. I think that anyone who actually experiences the benefits of meditation is in a position to offer a lot to society.
Yeah, we no longer go to miami and get sprayed with colored water by the lord of the universe...
but there are other things..like, let me see...
oh yeah, sex!
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Date: Mon, Jan 5, 1998 at 17:01:08 (EST)
Poster: John Cavad
Email:
To: Seymour
Subject: Re: Moving On...
Message:
Greetings, all. This is an excellent topic, I agree, more productive than engaging in the gossip (though I find it as amusing as anyone, I guess).
I left GMJ 14 years ago, so I had much time to try other things in life besides nightly Satsang.
I went on to getting a couple of college degrees. Why? I was told by the GMJ world that I didn't need college if I had Knowledge. You all know the stories we heard! It's true I received an education no college or university could offer. (It's also true living in the streets offers a fascinating education on life not available at Oxford.) Plus, my income was poor until I went to further my education. Economics played a part in that decision. But also, expanding the mind to think...to think for oneself was appealing and very rewarding.
Hobbies, such as photography, music composition allowed me to expand my creative mind. That's extremely rewarding. I also worked a bit in the music business, on stage (tenor sax, guitar, keyboards, singer, etc.). But that's another story altogether.
Attending lots of rock concerts also added plenty of exhilerating moments. Traveling around the world just for fun removes the bigotry we experience from only knowing one place, one type of human being. I learned from following GMJ (see I learned something) that much money wasn't necessary to travel (though enough to sleep on a real bed was better than cement!) So I traveled as much as I could, learning all I could prior and during my visits (through reading, studying, etc.) to increase my appreciation.
I never found another faith or religion, howerver. Neither did I care to try to find any other. By the way there's a great book I read a few years ago. Maybe some of you heard of it: "If You Find Buddah, Kill Him."
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Date: Mon, Jan 5, 1998 at 22:23:23 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: Sir David
Subject: Re: Moving On...
Message:
Yes, definitely, I guess the porno industry here is similar to continental Europe. Have there been freedom of expression legal challenges to the UK laws? Might the new European Union cause the laws to change? Can't imagine the French, Italians and Scandanavians putting up with those British prudes, after all.
In "Boogie Nights" the problems people got into (aside from wearing very ugly clothes from the 70s and early 80s) was drugs. Lots and lots of cocaine. It eventually destroyed people. It wasn't the actual industry itsel; I mean the film shows no actual abuse of anyone, unless you consider performing in a prono film abuse in and of itself, but rather the elements surrounding the industry that appeared to be the problem. The film takes place in the period of about 1977-1984 and takes place in the San Fernando Valley in Southern California which is apparently the center of the hardcore porno industry in the U.S.
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Date: Fri, Jan 9, 1998 at 15:40:55 (EST)
Poster: Seymour
Email: big_bottoms
To: John Cavad
Subject: Re: Moving On...
Message:
Thanks to everyone for your thoughts. I have just popped in for a moment and have not had time to read all the posts but it seems that David is advising hard core porn as a suitable direction to take after leaving DLM. I am not sure about this - I think my Catholic upbringing and shyness would prevent me from getting in to it all. Besides I do not agree with treating people as objects and it seems that the porn business does this to the extreme degree. Kant would never have approved - he suggested it was wrong to use people in anyway (even bus drivers) purely to satisfy your own needs or wants.
Anyway I will try to read all these posts in the next week ( it certainly is a busy forum) and thanks again.
Seymour.
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Date: Sun, Jan 4, 1998 at 04:38:40 (EST)
Poster: Maharaji -IS-
Email: bburke
To: Everyone
Subject: Retireing. It is a brilliant move.
Message:
I defy anyone to tell me how Maharaji retireing
is a dumb move.
Give credit where it is due, it is a no lose move.
Mili, go see him for his last european tour.
It is either;
Amar (most likely)
Premlata (sorry, it's still a mans' world)
But they don't move into position till he dies.
He has set up the 'foundation'
He has set the (ahem) "standard"
His place in history is assured.
In spite of himself he has thus far not derailed.
He can't pull the whole deal off and he sees that.
The media won't overlook him forever.
Retireing looks like his best move.
Retireing IS his best move.
The river will wash away his flaws.
In 'light' of his accomplishments.
Thats the way it is.
Thats the way it will be.
Thats the tradition here on earth.
It's a new dawn.
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Date: Sun, Jan 4, 1998 at 11:26:06 (EST)
Poster: well maybe it's
Email: b
To: Maharaji -IS-
Subject: just clever (Re: Retireing. It is a brilliant move.)
Message:
after being up all night with a sick person words
like 'defy' can come out I guess.
Anyway, it's Dayalata, not premlata.
The mormons have 22 million people and their book
says there was a whole civilization in the united states
with castles and roads and cities and people that advanced
became whiter skinned. Blacks were of the devil.
The leader found then 'lost' a bunch of holy gold tablets
that explained all, and without so much as a campfire
site of archeological evidence, people accepted it and
now it's 22 million (and rising) and thier ads come
on the tv in my living room demanding my acceptance.
Jesus had 17 years edited out of his life probably
because it is unpalatable.
No mention of how Joe ended up viewing his alleged
stepson, no mention of why the local jews from nazereth
didn't come a running because their hometown boy had
obviously exibited godhead qualities all along the
way, ect.ect.
The scientologists head guy announced that if you want to
make a lot of money start a religion. So, he did,
and it is a looney one for sure, at the top level,
you are told you are a reincarnated person from a
planet and civilisation from 10 BILLION years ago.
That and other lunacy is completely acceptable
to a large number of uniform wearing sheep.
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Date: Sun, Jan 4, 1998 at 12:47:13 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email: joger02@aol.com
To: Maharaji -IS-
Subject: Re: Retireing. It is a brilliant move.
Message:
I think it might be dumb to "retire," although I don't know what "retire" means. I agree that as long as he is alive, if he crowns someone else, it won't work. He has to be dead before devotees will entirely move their attachment from him to someone else. But he can begin the process of preparing the premies to accept someone else.
I suppose it's possibile his heath isn't the greatest and he thinks he may not live all that long. I have no information on this, but he has led a pretty sedentary lifestyle, has been overweight his whole life, ate lots of rich foods, and apparently has had a drinking problem. He also apparently smoked cigarettes for awhile; I don't know if he still does.
But he is 40 now, and even if he doesn't have a health problem, he needs to start thinking about keeping the crown jewels in the family. Therefore, he could choose one of his kids to take over more and more of his "duties" and take over completely upon his death. I would assume signs of this would become obvious. He would begin to push that kid into the limelight.
As I said, however, I think the likelihood of his "resignation" is very low, although he might turn over some of the running of things to someone else. But since he tends to micromanage things, with obvious disastrous results over the years, even that would probably be hard for him to do.
JW
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Date: Sun, Jan 4, 1998 at 12:52:57 (EST)
Poster: Sir David
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: well maybe it's (because I'm a Londoner)
Subject: We should start our own knowledge foundation (Re: Retireing. It is a brilliant move.)
Message:
Maharaji has made it very, very difficult for ordinary people to get the techniques of meditation and practise them with some help and the benefit of other people who practise them. He's turned simple meditation techniques into a "worship me" religion.
Those of us who meditate on some or all of the techniques could start a new foundation to bring our knowledge and experience to the masses. There would be no rules and no worship of Gurus. The techniques could be shown to all interested parties and they could meditate without any dogma. Ex-instructers could play a hand here if they wanted to and any ex-premies who felt like helping could help also.
Maharaji is Indian and he still has the trappings of the Indian tradition. His successor will follow on the tradition. We don't need this in the West. People would like to get on with their lives but have the way to turn their senses inwards to perceive the part of nature which is inside themselves. There should be no mystery to this knowledge, it should be known by everybody; athiest, agnostic and religious people alike.
There would be no pressure to meditate, just as there's no pressure to eat spagetti. People who didn't want to meditate would not be made to feel guilty.
Something's got to give. Maharaji is NOT making this meditation available to all who might want it. The tide will turn.
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Date: Sun, Jan 4, 1998 at 00:38:10 (EST)
Poster: Brian
Email:
To: Everyone
Subject: Mili's Bogus Supporters
Message:
Here follows the post to alt.config - and the list of Mili's "supporters". Look closely, people. We're all there.
Mili, you are CONFUSED.
Subject:
REQUEST TO REMOVE NEWSGROUP
Date:
Fri, 02 Jan 1998 12:22:19 -0600
From:
mili@cheerful.com
Organization:
Deja News Posting Service
Newsgroups:
alt.config
Dear Sirs,
We are writing to you with an urgent request to consider the alarming
situation that we, as followers of Guru Maharaj Ji have found ourselves
when recently the Usenet Newsgroup alt.cult.maharaji, stigmatizing us as a
'cult' was instituted on the Internet, and thus inciting xenophobia,
discrimination and persecution.
We do not proselytize on the Internet (have no website), we keep our
practices (of raja yoga meditation) private and are outraged by the
slanderous, bigoted and biased slant of this newsgroup.
Thank you for your attention to our plight,
- Milivoj Krkovic (mili@cheerful.com), living in Zagreb, Croatia
Other disciples of the Guru Maharaj Ji:
liperta@obelix.htl-tex.ac.at
unicorn@realitycom.com
Palmheat@AOL.com
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Date: Sun, Jan 4, 1998 at 00:42:50 (EST)
Poster: Brian
Email:
To: Well, two of us anyway
Subject: Re: Mili's Bogus Supporters
Message:
On close examination, I see that it is comprised from lifting the email addresses of the people who had posted to Harlan's site. The part that through me was Katies address appearing. You must have posted there once, Katie.
BTW, samneric@hellcent.com is me. But you would have known that Mili if you had only asked around.
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Date: Sun, Jan 4, 1998 at 00:48:41 (EST)
Poster: Brian
Email:
To: OP (aka Pragonampi)
Subject: OP, Did Mili ask your permission? (Re: Mili's Bogus Supporters)
Message:
Mili has signed your name to his attempt to have a.c.m. removed from Usenet. So tell us, yes or no, did you give him permission?
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Date: Sun, Jan 4, 1998 at 01:47:40 (EST)
Poster: op
Email:
To: Brian
Subject: Re: OP, Did Mili ask your permission? (Re: Mili's Bogus Supporters)
Message:
What do you think? If he signed all of you up, would he have had to ask me?
Straight answer: I had no idea about this until I got an email telling me about it.
Personal opinion: Mili, I agree with the majority opinion here. Not a very smart move, especially since the newspage is dying off on its own.
Sidebar: But I wonder if Mili really is stupid enough to have done something like that. Obviously it would get back to you guys, one way or another. And anyone can see the list of names, and know that it's contrived. And yes, indeed, it's a list of all those who posted on Harlan's page. Missing, obviously, are Jim Heller and David Simpkiss, among others.
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Date: Sun, Jan 4, 1998 at 02:31:29 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Brian
Subject: Re: Mili's Bogus Supporters
Message:
On close examination, I see that it is comprised from lifting the email addresses of the people who had posted to Harlan's site. The part that through me was Katies address appearing. You must have posted there once, Katie.
BTW, samneric@hellcent.com is me. But you would have known that Mili if you had only asked around.
Yeah I did post there once Brian, when I first found the site, and when I was looking for a friend of mine (the premie who killed himself). I just can't believe that Mili asked everyone's permission on that list, and not mine, so I am going to assume that he asked NOBODY's permission. Furthermore, he didn't even read the list, or he would have found my address on there and deleted it. It makes it obvious that the whole thing is bogus.
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Date: Sun, Jan 4, 1998 at 02:58:22 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: op
Subject: Re: OP, Did Mili ask your permission? (Re: Mili's Bogus Supporters)
Message:
What do you think? If he signed all of you up, would he have had to ask me?
Straight answer: I had no idea about this until I got an email telling me about it.
Personal opinion: Mili, I agree with the majority opinion here. Not a very smart move, especially since the newspage is dying off on its own.
Sidebar: But I wonder if Mili really is stupid enough to have done something like that. Obviously it would get back to you guys, one way or another. And anyone can see the list of names, and know that it's contrived. And yes, indeed, it's a list of all those who posted on Harlan's page. Missing, obviously, are Jim Heller and David Simpkiss, among others.
I have to agree with OP. It's such a dumb move that I wonder if Mili really did it. Maybe I am overestimating his intelligence, or understating his incredible need for attention. I'd like to hear what Mili has to say before he is condemned, assuming that he'll address the isssue, and that he ever posts on here again.
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Date: Sun, Jan 4, 1998 at 04:00:19 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: op
Subject: Re: OP, Did Mili ask your permission? (Re: Mili's Bogus Supporters)
Message:
What do you think? If he signed all of you up, would he have had to ask me?
Straight answer: I had no idea about this until I got an email telling me about it.
Personal opinion: Mili, I agree with the majority opinion here. Not a very smart move, especially since the newspage is dying off on its own.
Sidebar: But I wonder if Mili really is stupid enough to have done something like that. Obviously it would get back to you guys, one way or another. And anyone can see the list of names, and know that it's contrived. And yes, indeed, it's a list of all those who posted on Harlan's page. Missing, obviously, are Jim Heller and David Simpkiss, among others.
Yeah, OP, I guess it wasn't too smart - but the possibility was there and I just had to try it. Sorry if someone was included in the E-mail list who doesn't support the request.
No hard feelings, I hope.
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Date: Sun, Jan 4, 1998 at 04:15:17 (EST)
Poster: op
Email:
To: Mili
Subject: Re: OP, Did Mili ask your permission? (Re: Mili's Bogus Supporters)
Message:
Sorry if someone was included in the E-mail list who doesn't support the request.
No hard feelings, I hope.
Take a look around you - there are banners out to get you in every corner of the room. This one's going to be even harder to live down than calling Jim a nazi.
Even Katie's doubting your sanity.
My take? Oh well, live and learn. Rome wasn't torn down in a day.
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Date: Sun, Jan 4, 1998 at 04:46:07 (EST)
Poster: $
Email: **
To: Brian
Subject: @mili.com (Re: Mili's Bogus Supporters)
Message:
why don't you provide thier credit card numbers too?
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Date: Sun, Jan 4, 1998 at 07:00:08 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: op
Subject: Re: OP, Did Mili ask your permission? (Re: Mili's Bogus Supporters)
Message:
Sorry if someone was included in the E-mail list who doesn't support the request.
No hard feelings, I hope.
Take a look around you - there are banners out to get you in every corner of the room. This one's going to be even harder to live down than calling Jim a nazi.
Even Katie's doubting your sanity.
My take? Oh well, live and learn. Rome wasn't torn down in a day.
My only regret here is that I didn't check the E-mail list better. Well, can't be perfect, you know.
I come from a country that's been having a religious/ethnic war for seven years now - I can spot hate, bigotry and intolerance at a glance. And this place is so full of it it deserves to be shut down. It has nothing to do with freedom of speech. It has to do with mental hygiene.
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Date: Sun, Jan 4, 1998 at 08:57:57 (EST)
Poster: Brian
Email:
To: Mili
Subject: Re: OP, Did Mili ask your permission? (Re: Mili's Bogus Supporters)
Message:
A little Mili composite:
Yeah, OP, I guess it wasn't too smart - but the possibility was there and I just had to try it. Sorry if someone was included in the E-mail list who doesn't support the request. No hard feelings, I hope.
My only regret here is that I didn't check the E-mail list better. Well, can't be perfect, you know.
I come from a country that's been having a religious/ethnic war for seven years now - I can spot hate, bigotry and intolerance at a glance. And this place is so full of it it deserves to be shut down. It has nothing to do with freedom of speech. It has to do with mental hygiene.
Mili, this doesn't come close to apology. You can tap-dance and rationalize almost as well as MJ or OP ("I wonder if Mili is really this stupid"). Having for an excuse "The possibility was there and I just had to try it" leaves me wondering what other possibilities are "there" that you just have to try. OP's stance on free speech "Rome wasn't torn down in a day" is a perfect twin for your intolerance of people who oppose your views, yet did nothing to deprive you of your little forum. A forum where you could coo and gush over the person who requested you to stop doing so. You dismantled your site, coward that you are, and would see this site and a.c.m. disappear into the silence surrounding the closed society of obedient non-thinking and non-speaking premies that comprise MJ's "Peace On Earth".
Being a webmaster doesn't empower someone to commit the sort of abuses against people that being The Lord Of The Universe does, of course. Yet you took advantage of your ex-position to sign "premies" onto your "petition" without even going through the charade of notifying them, let alone allowing them the opportunity to pass up being included to your foolish effort to shut down free speech.
I'm sure you would be screaming loudly (with OP holding down the harmony) were I, as webmaster of ex-premie.org, to compile a list of VALID supporters and append them to a petition sent to your ISP requesting that you be stopped from using your account as a means of attempting to shut down a valid Usenet newsgroup through FORGED support letters posted to the alt.config newsgroup. THAT you would find offensive, even though your ISP relies on access to Usenet to attract paying customers and would choose to comply with the self-policing required by Usenet. Such moral high ground you occupy, Mili. Your professed ability to be able to "spot hate, bigotry and intolerance at a glance" ends at your mirror, as OP's ends at hers.
While I am not interested in taking the time to petition your ISP that you be dropped, legal minds attached to this site may be interested, and I would be happy to sign my VALID name to the complaint. OP would pass, of course. (You gotta admire her "stand by your idiot" approach to life, don't you? It not only applies to MJ, but extends to even you Mili. The poor premie from a bad war-torn neighborhood.)
You could certainly be empowered to come up with a better "only regret", Mili.
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Date: Sun, Jan 4, 1998 at 11:33:34 (EST)
Poster: another bystander
Email:
To: Brian
Subject: update to usenet (Re: Mili's Bogus Supporters)
Message:
This is not correct. Mili was a co-Webmaster along with Harlan (on the list of names) of a pro-guru website (URL:www.premie.org). At his guru's request that his
devotees not post about him or his bizarre teaching on the internet, Mili and Harlan took their site down.
During the time that it was functional, premies (devotees of
Maharaji) freely posted to that site, including their email addresses with their posts. As I was not allowed to post there due to my being an ex-premie highly critical of his Master's teachings, I posted there under an old BBS account
"samneric@hellcent.com". You will find that address on the list of "supporters" should you look. Along with at least one other ex-premie, "petkat". Apparently Mili didn't know the real identities of samneric or petkat, as he argues with us daily on a free forum we host through ex.premie.org - an anti-Maharaji site where I am now the webmaster.
What Mili has done is to gather his database of "pro-guru" posters' email addresses and, WITHOUT THEIR PERMISSION, sign them to his "petition". This is Mili, day in and day out on our forum. We view him as a prime example of what
can happen when you suspend thinking for yourself as an adult, and instead rely on a cult leader to do your non-thinking for you. He is a bit of a pet on the online forum - harmless, mindless, and possessing absolutely no
sense of right and wrong. In other words, a perfect devotee for his guru.
I'm sorry that his antics have spilled over onto alt.config as they have. In the future we will try to keep the door to his little cage more securely locked, so that he not bother the neighbors any more.
Sorry to any who have been inconvenienced.
[Aside to Mili: Mili, you are confused.]
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Date: Sun, Jan 4, 1998 at 11:53:26 (EST)
Poster: op
Email:
To: Brian
Subject: Re: OP, Did Mili ask your permission? (Re: Mili's Bogus Supporters)
Message:
Please don't speak for me. I've never tried to stop anyone from expressing their true feelings. I've was a bit hurt when Jim chewed on me for a while, but I NEVER intervened, told you how to run your show, suggested that people should or should not post here, washed anyone's mouth out with soap, suggested anyone was off topic, etc. etc. etc.
Scott! Where is that gentle webmaster now that we need him?
Scott! Help! Brian's picking on me again!!
You can tap-dance and rationalize almost as well as MJ or OP ('I wonder if Mili is really this stupid'). ... OP's stance on free speech 'Rome wasn't torn down in a day' is a perfect twin for your intolerance of people who oppose your views...I'm sure you would be screaming loudly (with OP holding down the harmony)... Your professed ability to be able to 'spot hate, bigotry and intolerance at a glance' ends at your mirror, as OP's ends at hers. ... OP would pass, of course. (You gotta admire her 'stand by your idiot' approach to life)
Of COURSE I'd love it if people didn't run off at the mouth stating rumor as proven fact. But I'm not the one trying to shut you down - remember?
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Date: Sun, Jan 4, 1998 at 12:10:30 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email: joger02@aol.com
To: Mili
Subject: Re: OP, Did Mili ask your permission? (Re: Mili's Bogus Supporters)
Message:
Sorry if someone was included in the E-mail list who doesn't support the request.
No hard feelings, I hope.
You know, Mili, I used to actually have some respect for you. Unfortunately it's gone. I really thought you were someone who received knowledge and did whatever in the hell you wanted, didn't give up anything, and enjoy doing meditation. Therefore, since you never saw M as god, but just a meditation teacher, I could sort of accept that, although I thought it was a myopic view of M nonetheless.
Other than that, I just saw you as an eccentric recluse, prone to outbursts of name-calling, which might be partly due, as CD suggested, to the fact that you live in a part of the world that has suffered such homocidal hatred and violence in the last few years. Maybe that has had an effect on your brain. Wouldn't be surprised.
But this is a new low, even for you Mili. It's obvious you are playing the game that others have suggested: You are trying to protect Maharaji at all cost. You don't even have an excuse. Hypocracy in the extreme.
JW
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Date: Sun, Jan 4, 1998 at 12:45:08 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: JW
Subject: Re: OP, Did Mili ask your permission? (Re: Mili's Bogus Supporters)
Message:
Sorry if someone was included in the E-mail list who doesn't support the request.
No hard feelings, I hope.
You know, Mili, I used to actually have some respect for you. Unfortunately it's gone. I really thought you were someone who received knowledge and did whatever in the hell you wanted, didn't give up anything, and enjoy doing meditation. Therefore, since you never saw M as god, but just a meditation teacher, I could sort of accept that, although I thought it was a myopic view of M nonetheless.
Other than that, I just saw you as an eccentric recluse, prone to outbursts of name-calling, which might be partly due, as CD suggested, to the fact that you live in a part of the world that has suffered such homocidal hatred and violence in the last few years. Maybe that has had an effect on your brain. Wouldn't be surprised.
But this is a new low, even for you Mili. It's obvious you are playing the game that others have suggested: You are trying to protect Maharaji at all cost. You don't even have an excuse. Hypocracy in the extreme.
JW
JW, you said you cared for people with AIDS. Then you should be able to understand what I'm trying to do here - I am standing up for a stigmatized minority group that has a website and newsgroup dedicated to their humiliation and persecution. Maybe I am not doing a good job of it, but at least it's a start.
I don't understand you guys - you used to be liberal, open-minded... Now you come on as the most conservative of bigots. And, hey, you are doing it to people whom you even KNOW, personally.
Disgusting.
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Date: Sun, Jan 4, 1998 at 13:00:51 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email: joger02@aol.com
To: Mili
Subject: Re: OP, Did Mili ask your permission? (Re: Mili's Bogus Supporters)
Message:
JW, you said you cared for people with AIDS. Then you should be able to understand what I'm trying to do here - I am standing up for a stigmatized minority group that has a website and newsgroup dedicated to their humiliation and persecution. Maybe I am not doing a good job of it, but at least it's a start.
I don't understand you guys - you used to be liberal, open-minded... Now you come on as the most conservative of bigots. And, hey, you are doing it to people whom you even KNOW, personally.
Disgusting.
Mili, you are being silly. [Hey, I',m poet and know it!]
If someone criticizes christianity or established religions (which, by the way, I have heard Guru Maharaji do numerous times over the years) one is not attacking the person who BELIEVES in christianity. You just disagree with the beliefs, and maybe even say that the beliefs are destructive. I think that the beliefs of many fundamentalist christians are very narrow-minded and hurtful to non-christians, homosexuals, minorities, etc. But, by and large, the fundamentalist christians I have met are very nice, albeit fearful, people. And you have to make that distinction, Mili.
I think most premies are very nice, albeit often deluded, people. Some premies are wonderful people, some are jerks, just like any other group of people. I have never criticized premies, except to say I disagree with what they believe. And ex-premies have a lot of credibility here because they once believed many of those things themselves, and have come to the conclusion that what they believed was wrong, and, in some cases, caused them harm. And ctiticizing Maharaji is NOT criticizing YOU, although you may be so identified with him that it FEELS that way.
So, saying that this forum or the newsgroup is "dedicated to humiliation and persecution" is specious and I think if you make those allegations you are going to get laughed at. It's hysterical hyperbole and has the opposite effect you want. It draws attention to what the ex-premies are saying and makes you sound paranoid, which, as you know, is a stereotype of cult members. So I suggest you dont' exhibit that.
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Date: Sun, Jan 4, 1998 at 13:25:07 (EST)
Poster: Bobby
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: OP, Did Mili ask your permission? (Re: Mili's Bogus Supporters)
Message:
...saying that this forum or the newsgroup is 'dedicated to humiliation and persecution'is specious
Ringmaster Jim just blew away two newcomers who happened into this forum, blasting them away as stupid, idiot assholes. Everybody stands by and blithely accepts his behavior. Oh, that's just Jim. He speaks for himself. He has a right to his anger.
Reminds me of the common sociological pattern of people watching people getting beat-up or even killed and not lifting a finger to help. "After all, it's not happening to me. I speak for myself."
"And I'm sure it wouldn't interest, anybody, outside a small circle of friends." ---- Phil Ochs
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Date: Sun, Jan 4, 1998 at 13:51:16 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: Bobby
Subject: Re: OP, Did Mili ask your permission? (Re: Mili's Bogus Supporters)
Message:
...saying that this forum or the newsgroup is 'dedicated to humiliation and persecution'is specious
Ringmaster Jim just blew away two newcomers who happened into this forum, blasting them away as stupid, idiot assholes. Everybody stands by and blithely accepts his behavior. Oh, that's just Jim. He speaks for himself. He has a right to his anger.
Reminds me of the common sociological pattern of people watching people getting beat-up or even killed and not lifting a finger to help. 'After all, it's not happening to me. I speak for myself.'
'And I'm sure it wouldn't interest, anybody, outside a small circle of friends.' ---- Phil Ochs
This is a broken record, Bobby. You wanting to make Jim the major subject of the discussion, I mean. Moreoever, you don't know why someone was blown away. Was it because Jim used language you didn't like, or was it because those individuals were confronted in their beliefs and chose the more comfortable path of just retreating instead of questioning what they might believe? I don't know, but I don't think you do either.
But whatever you think of what Jim said to someone, that doesn't support Mili's ridiculous assertion that the entire newsgroup is "dedicated to humiliation and persecution" of a minority group.
JW
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Date: Sun, Jan 4, 1998 at 14:22:11 (EST)
Poster: A real judge
Email: true justice
To: Brian
Subject: Re: Mili's Bogus Supporters
Message:
Well I've seen much.This mili person is quite sly.If your posting is accurate,notice the wording "other disciples of the Guru Maharaji" He is trying to give the impression to the reader that these other followers names are listed because they support his effort to ban a newsgroup,and in the flow of reading many will be left with this entirely false impression.Mili never did say they supported this did he?He just presented a list of followers without specifying anything.Clever!He could have put any list there,for example;"other flowers found in Texas..."
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Date: Sun, Jan 4, 1998 at 14:25:57 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.tri.bnet
To: Bobby
Subject: Re: OP, Did Mili ask your permission? (Re: Mili's Bogus Supporters)
Message:
...saying that this forum or the newsgroup is 'dedicated to humiliation and persecution'is specious
Ringmaster Jim just blew away two newcomers who happened into this forum, blasting them away as stupid, idiot assholes. Everybody stands by and blithely accepts his behavior. Oh, that's just Jim. He speaks for himself. He has a right to his anger.
Reminds me of the common sociological pattern of people watching people getting beat-up or even killed and not lifting a finger to help. 'After all, it's not happening to me. I speak for myself.'
'And I'm sure it wouldn't interest, anybody, outside a small circle of friends.' ---- Phil Ochs
Dear Bobby - MILI's posts have already chased away one ex-premie person on this forum. I have advised another person NOT to post on the forum because I am afraid of the effect that Mili's posts would have on her. (e-mail me if you would like to know more, because I don't want to "out" these people). And of course, there's the well-known incident where he told a young woman who was abused as a child by Mahatma JagDeo that she was "lying", almost before she had a chance to tell her story.
All this makes me really angry, and it upsets me that you consider JIM to be the only person who flames people posting on this forum. Are ex-premies supposed to be tougher than premies or something? Some of them are not - in fact some are quite fragile and need support.
You've mentioned several times that the forum is not a safe place to post. Well, it won't be as long as we allow freedom of speech. All I want you to see is that the unsafeness goes both ways - it's unsafe for ex-premies to post sensitive material on here too. And it's not because of Jim.
Regards from Katie
Finally, a note to Mili - WHAT is this RELIGIOUS PERSECTION stuff? I thought that Maharaji wasn't running a religion! If he is, it's news to me, and probably to him as well. OP - do you think it's a religion too?
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Date: Sun, Jan 4, 1998 at 14:31:53 (EST)
Poster: Bobby
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: OP, Did Mili ask your permission? (Re: Mili's Bogus Supporters)
Message:
It's only a broken record to you because you don't get the point. Jim laces into anyone who believes other than his twisted beliefs. Most others here either tacitly or overtly accept this, or actually support his hate crusade.
I don't support what Mili did. I've spoken out against what he has done in the past and I do now. But Mili's not the only one way off the mark. Mili's the convenient scapegoat.
Jim continues his lies, insults and aggressive behavior and is squeaky clean. There are others here too, but they don't leave their names.
Jim owns and accepts his hateful behavior and has never apologized for any of it. His behavior is PC for the anti-maharaji cause. He not only gets away with his agressive hate-mongering, he appears to absolutely glory in it.
I guess I make you and others here uncomfortable for pointing this out. You don't care, it's not you that Jim is attacking. You don't agree with me so you want me to shut up or go away.
People here spend inordinate amounts of time blaming Maharaji for every little thing. He's too fat, he's too rich, he doesn't do anything for others, he fucked up our lives. I've come to terms with Maharaji in my own way and I've stated clearly where I stand. Maharaji doesn't bother me. In my opinion, there are more than enough other individuals in the world far more culpable than Maharaji. I don't care to join in the group-dump attacks on Maharaji. I'm just not interested in that kind of sensationalistic group vent.
Go ahead, do your venting, but don't direct at aggression to individuals who question your view or who try to come to terms with their premie experience in their own way.
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Date: Sun, Jan 4, 1998 at 15:16:41 (EST)
Poster: Bobby
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: OP, Did Mili ask your permission? (Re: Mili's Bogus Supporters)
Message:
At any rate JW,
this forum is getting kind of weary for me.
Too much anger.
Not enough respect.
Don't bother responding to what I say here. Doesn't really matter anyway.
I may check in later, but for now I'm going to stay away for awhile. A needed self-discipline. I know that will make some people happy.
Best wishes to all.
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Date: Sun, Jan 4, 1998 at 15:40:50 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: op
Subject: Re: OP, Did Mili ask your permission? (Re: Mili's Bogus Supporters)
Message:
OP,
You protest overmuch. Think a little, please, and don't let your fellow premies' low-grade reasoning lull you into forgetting that we're all not so dull here. Brian's got your number. Your comment to Mili about Rome 'not being burnt down in a day' obviously condones his act. 'Better luck next time, Bucko!' you might have said.
OP, think serioulsy for a moment how life would be if Mili succeeded in muzzling the ex's. Is that the world you want to live in? It WOULD be a little easier in some respects, wouldn't it? No challenge, no conflict, no free expression about m. Is that the world you want?
Your last post to me, once again, urged me to believe that you think it IS worthwhile to discuss m honestly and openly. You've never explained WHY you think so but you do complain oh o much when someone suggests your agenda's otherwise. How, then, can you even tacitly support Mili's laughable -- but still vile -- effort? Methinks you speaketh out of both sides of your mouth, OP.
So just how bad DO you think Mili's act was? By the way, what was your opinion of the stifled dialogue on the premie page? Or the fact that the premie page barred all the ex's (it could detect)?
You're right. You've never actively tried to suppress criticism of m here, just like you might not have done some of that unseemly things people criticise m and some of his henchmen for. BUT, OP, in both cases you've stood by smiling, condoning, minimizing. I asked you yesterday to prove you're no 'blind' devotee by telling us some of m's personality flaws. (I just noticed your reply below -- where you ask for time and, perhaps, a little 'privacy.' My reply, that neither are necessary, is below as well). Now I'd like you to comment, if you will, on Mili. What do you think of him?
Thanks
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Date: Sun, Jan 4, 1998 at 16:02:24 (EST)
Poster: bftb
Email:
To: Bobby
Subject: Re: OP, Did Mili ask your permission? (Re: Mili's Bogus Supporters)
Message:
It's only a broken record to you because you don't get the point. Jim laces into anyone who believes other than his twisted beliefs. Most others here either tacitly or overtly accept this, or actually support his hate crusade.
I don't support what Mili did. I've spoken out against what he has done in the past and I do now. But Mili's not the only one way off the mark. Mili's the convenient scapegoat.
Jim continues his lies, insults and aggressive behavior and is squeaky clean. There are others here too, but they don't leave their names.
Jim owns and accepts his hateful behavior and has never apologized for any of it. His behavior is PC for the anti-maharaji cause. He not only gets away with his agressive hate-mongering, he appears to absolutely glory in it.
I guess I make you and others here uncomfortable for pointing this out. You don't care, it's not you that Jim is attacking. You don't agree with me so you want me to shut up or go away.
People here spend inordinate amounts of time blaming Maharaji for every little thing. He's too fat, he's too rich, he doesn't do anything for others, he fucked up our lives. I've come to terms with Maharaji in my own way and I've stated clearly where I stand. Maharaji doesn't bother me. In my opinion, there are more than enough other individuals in the world far more culpable than Maharaji. I don't care to join in the group-dump attacks on Maharaji. I'm just not interested in that kind of sensationalistic group vent.
Go ahead, do your venting, but don't direct at aggression to individuals who question your view or who try to come to terms with their premie experience in their own way.
Since you accuse people of tacit acceptance of jims outbursts by not saying anything I'd like to respond.
My feeling(and I don't know Jim or anyone else here other then through their postings)is that Jim is probably a very nice person.I am sure that he loves puppies and kittens and niceness as much as you or I or anyone sane.
It's also apparent that he feels(whether we share his feelings or not is beside the point)that he was involved in a 'by-design' mind control cult.He has been greatly affected by same.Many others share his situation and this website is the first place where people who feel as he does(and anyone else for that matter)can dialogue and try and mutually work through their feelings.
Now,I haven't read everything yet but I did see his exchange with some guy who came barging in here to proclaim all posters a bunch of whiners.Jim was 100% right and justified in calling this person's behavior exactly what it was: idiotic.I'd also say that it was very mean in that there are genuinely hurt/suffering ex's here and this guy has the nerve to pass judgement?what the hell does he know about what jim or anyone else went through?Maybe their'whining' is justified.
Anyway;nobody can be chased away from here.I am certain that anyone who feels offended by jim,if they would just engage him in discussion and realise that his way is just his way,and that it's not personal to you but only to what you say,would find that great learning can take place if they can hang in there and really discuss things.Also;jim often asks posters very good questions right off the bat that force them to either deal directly with issues he presents or hum and haw and in the end say nothing.I've seen this happen alot and can understand why jim gets frustrated at times.
In terms of you and jim,well looks to me like it's become personal for you and that's too bad because you seem to also be a very good/nice person but react very differently then he does to heated exchange.
For what it's worth I do hope/believe that you and jim will end up making peace and begin to discuss issues again together because you both have that in you and you'll each grow tired of bickering eventually anyhow.
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Date: Sun, Jan 4, 1998 at 18:19:04 (EST)
Poster: mark time
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: OP, Did Mili ask your permission? (Re: Mili's Bogus Supporters)
Message:
...saying that this forum or the newsgroup is 'dedicated to humiliation and persecution'is specious
Ringmaster Jim just blew away two newcomers who happened into this forum, blasting them away as stupid, idiot assholes. Everybody stands by and blithely accepts his behavior. Oh, that's just Jim. He speaks for himself. He has a right to his anger.
Reminds me of the common sociological pattern of people watching people getting beat-up or even killed and not lifting a finger to help. 'After all, it's not happening to me. I speak for myself.'
'And I'm sure it wouldn't interest, anybody, outside a small circle of friends.' ---- Phil Ochs
This is a broken record, Bobby. You wanting to make Jim the major subject of the discussion, I mean. Moreoever, you don't know why someone was blown away. Was it because Jim used language you didn't like, or was it because those individuals were confronted in their beliefs and chose the more comfortable path of just retreating instead of questioning what they might believe? I don't know, but I don't think you do either.
But whatever you think of what Jim said to someone, that doesn't support Mili's ridiculous assertion that the entire newsgroup is 'dedicated to humiliation and persecution' of a minority group.
JW
IT SEEMS OBVIOUS IN LIGHT OF THIS FALSE E-MAIL S, THAT MILLI HAS FINALLY REVEALED HIMSELF AS THE LOST MISSING MEMBER OF" THE MILLI VANILLI'S," THE wanabee devotee and lord team
that he and his masquerading "lord of the universe" truly are !. The charlatan of soul meets the bogus boznian !!
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Date: Sun, Jan 4, 1998 at 18:19:14 (EST)
Poster: mark time
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: OP, Did Mili ask your permission? (Re: Mili's Bogus Supporters)
Message:
...saying that this forum or the newsgroup is 'dedicated to humiliation and persecution'is specious
Ringmaster Jim just blew away two newcomers who happened into this forum, blasting them away as stupid, idiot assholes. Everybody stands by and blithely accepts his behavior. Oh, that's just Jim. He speaks for himself. He has a right to his anger.
Reminds me of the common sociological pattern of people watching people getting beat-up or even killed and not lifting a finger to help. 'After all, it's not happening to me. I speak for myself.'
'And I'm sure it wouldn't interest, anybody, outside a small circle of friends.' ---- Phil Ochs
This is a broken record, Bobby. You wanting to make Jim the major subject of the discussion, I mean. Moreoever, you don't know why someone was blown away. Was it because Jim used language you didn't like, or was it because those individuals were confronted in their beliefs and chose the more comfortable path of just retreating instead of questioning what they might believe? I don't know, but I don't think you do either.
But whatever you think of what Jim said to someone, that doesn't support Mili's ridiculous assertion that the entire newsgroup is 'dedicated to humiliation and persecution' of a minority group.
JW
IT SEEMS OBVIOUS IN LIGHT OF THIS FALSE E-MAIL S, THAT MILLI HAS FINALLY REVEALED HIMSELF AS THE LOST MISSING MEMBER OF" THE MILLI VANILLI'S," THE wanabee devotee and lord team
that he and his masquerading "lord of the universe" truly are !. The charlatan of soul meets the bogus boznian !!
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Date: Sun, Jan 4, 1998 at 18:46:49 (EST)
Poster: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net
To: Mili
Subject: Re: OP, Did Mili ask your permission? (Re: Mili's Bogus Supporters)
Message:
Sorry if someone was included in the E-mail list who doesn't support the request.
No hard feelings, I hope.
Take a look around you - there are banners out to get you in every corner of the room. This one's going to be even harder to live down than calling Jim a nazi.
Even Katie's doubting your sanity.
My take? Oh well, live and learn. Rome wasn't torn down in a day.
My only regret here is that I didn't check the E-mail list better. Well, can't be perfect, you know.
I come from a country that's been having a religious/ethnic war for seven years now - I can spot hate, bigotry and intolerance at a glance. And this place is so full of it it deserves to be shut down. It has nothing to do with freedom of speech. It has to do with mental hygiene.
Mili, ever since I found your request posted at the newsgroup, I have tried to understand why you did this; I even considered that perhaps someone else did it under your name in order to stir up trouble, but the terms used sounded too much like your posts. I have also considered the fact that, living where you do, your "hate radar" may be a bit more sensitive than ours, just as the "cult radar" of an ex-premie is more sensitive than yours. I am willing to accept, to a point, that your hate radar is on full, but I still don't really understand why you did this. You must have realized that we would find out, and you must have realized that it would make things erupt here. So, tell us, truthfully, why you did what you did! No one has talked about persecuting premies or doing M any physical harm. You can't blame this all on Jim, you must take responsibility for your actions ( a topic you have discussed before on this site). So, Mili, Why did you do it?
Michael
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Date: Sun, Jan 4, 1998 at 20:01:45 (EST)
Poster: bftb
Email:
To: Mickey the Pharisee
Subject: Re: OP, Did Mili ask your permission? (Re: Mili's Bogus Supporters)
Message:
Myself and others have asked mili repeatedly why he tried to get the newsgroup banned and he hasn't answered yet.I find it strange because he normally answers everything adressed to him.
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Date: Sun, Jan 4, 1998 at 20:10:19 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: bftb
Subject: Re: OP, Did Mili ask your permission? (Re: Mili's Bogus Supporters)
Message:
Myself and others have asked mili repeatedly why he tried to get the newsgroup banned and he hasn't answered yet.I find it strange because he normally answers everything adressed to him.
Look, you idiot, I AM NOT ALLOWED TO BE POSTING HERE ANYMORE - concensus opinion! Get it?
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Date: Sun, Jan 4, 1998 at 20:22:05 (EST)
Poster: bftb
Email:
To: Mili
Subject: Re: OP, Did Mili ask your permission? (Re: Mili's Bogus Supporters)
Message:
Myself and others have asked mili repeatedly why he tried to get the newsgroup banned and he hasn't answered yet.I find it strange because he normally answers everything adressed to him.
Look, you idiot, I AM NOT ALLOWED TO BE POSTING HERE ANYMORE - concensus opinion! Get it?
Well thanks for calling me an idiot,coming from you it's a compliment I suppose.What do I care about this non-existant concensus you speak of?You're free to post;you just did.Answer the question please:Why did you try to get the newsgroup banned?
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Date: Sun, Jan 4, 1998 at 21:17:01 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email:
To: bftb
Subject: Re: OP, Did Mili ask your permission? (Re: Mili's Bogus Supporters)
Message:
Myself and others have asked mili repeatedly why he tried to get the newsgroup banned and he hasn't answered yet.I find it strange because he normally answers everything adressed to him.
Look, you idiot, I AM NOT ALLOWED TO BE POSTING HERE ANYMORE - concensus opinion! Get it?
Well thanks for calling me an idiot,coming from you it's a compliment I suppose.What do I care about this non-existant concensus you speak of?You're free to post;you just did.Answer the question please:Why did you try to get the newsgroup banned?
I'm not sure why Mili tried to get the newsgroup banned (trying to get GMJ's attention is my guess), but there is no consensus opinion for or against Mili posting on here. At least not yet. About five of the "people" voting for Mili to quit posting on here are from the same ISP address, so I wouldn't hold their opinions to have that much weight. As far as I'm concerned, Mili, you can post as much as you want. Just use your OWN name please. And please answer bftb's question if you can.
Katie
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Date: Sun, Jan 4, 1998 at 21:24:39 (EST)
Poster: Brian
Email:
To: another bystander
Subject: Re: update to usenet (Re: Mili's Bogus Supporters)
Message:
This is not correct. Mili was a co-Webmaster along with Harlan (on the list of names) of a pro-guru website (URL:www.premie.org), etc...
Note to forum readers: This partially quoted post is a copy of my response in alt.config to someone who suggested that Mili's list of "supporters" was gathered by email-harvesting software.
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Date: Mon, Jan 5, 1998 at 02:11:42 (EST)
Poster: op
Email:
To: Jim
Subject: Re: OP, Did Mili ask your permission? (Re: Mili's Bogus Supporters)
Message:
BUT, OP, in both cases you've stood by smiling, condoning, minimizing
I don't think you can know if I'm smiling. In this case, I agree with the majority opinion here - no, not that Mili should be drawn and quartered or banned to the cybersteppes. I think what he did was thoughtless and irresponsible. For several reasons. One is that he has no right to try to halt freedom of speech by coercion. I may disagree with a lot of what you say here, and I really do believe that rumors should not be dispensed like soda pop. But when it comes to discussing whatever problems you've had with the practice of Knowledge or personal matters you feel you'd like to take up with M, that's a call that each one has to make on her/his own.
The quip I made about Rome - a lot of that was rhetoric. It was an easy line. But the thought behind it was that cutting off your lifeline is not the way to get rid of the bad feelings, the problems that are exhibited here. IOW, I believe in working things out, not in bombing them out of existence.
Obviously I disagree with a lot of what is said on these ex pages. I WOULD be a liar if I patted you all on the back and said 'good job' - wouldn't I? And yes, I would be VERY happy if this page and the ex.cult didn't exist. I would be even happier if there were no NEED for them to exist.
I don't know what the answer is. If I get too deeply into this, it WILL become an all night seminar, which I'm not quite ready for. I've said before - I don't know why M's message works for some, and not for others. I wish that those for whom it doesn't work could just walk out the door and live their lives freely. I can't understand your hatred, for example. Even those who have been married for thirty years, and then discover they have wasted their lives on a rotten marriage, can get over it. (I don't expect an answer to this - I'm just restating my position here.)
Re stifled dialogue on the premie page: I don't know quite how stifled it was. I missed the exchange you mentioned, about an argument over divinity. Personally, I don't think ex-premies should have posted there, because its purpose was not dialogue and discussion of issues. That's not to say that there couldn't eventually be a "premie page" that covers such matters, and on which exes could be invited to participate. But that wasn't the purpose of THAT site. And we all know that if you, Brian, etc. could have gotten in the door, it would have meant total chaos. I have images of street urchins rushing into the peaceful classroom and overturning chairs, spilling ink bottles, tearing up copybooks... even pulling little girls' braids (yes, I know it's not an appropriate image, but that's what my mind conjures up).
BTW - I also disagreed with a lot of the postings on that site, using it as a forum to plaster M's words or proclaiming very personal matters, for example. It seemed to me that a tame place for premies to get back in touch with each other would have been ideal.
About the other post - now I've given this all the time I can spare.
Okay - one criticism of M: his constant mispronunciation of Athens (he said it with a long A). I have no idea why he did it. Maybe he had a teacher when he was nine who mispronounced it, but I would have thought he'd correct that. But see, even here, I look for a reason, and feel there must be one.
I think you have to realize that I'm just not very judgmental in general. I know I'm harsh on you, but you know why. If M spouted venom at me every time I tried to speak, I would probably react the same way. Other than that, I'm pretty easy on people.
So when I think about M, I don't come up with any 'personality flaws'. That's why I asked for time, so that I could think and think about it until I could come up with something.
So I will continue thinking.
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Date: Mon, Jan 5, 1998 at 02:26:05 (EST)
Poster: op
Email:
To: everybody
Subject: Re: OP, re $ybernetics, and thus off topic (Re: Mili's Bogus Supporters)
Message:
By they way, there's been a nice long discussion about 60 minutes and their coverage of scientology over on alt.cult. (Shucks, I missed the show!) What this has to do with your newspage, I don't know, except that Bill West posted one analogy of his own.
But if you guys think M is off-base, you might want to get a peek at the secret teachings of L Ron. I don't know how to make a link, but check out this site on the web - it's Elron's notebooks about how the earth came to be populated, and the secrets involved in overcoming our very manipulated past karma:
http://24.112.92.82/~OTIII/
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Date: Mon, Jan 5, 1998 at 02:49:53 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Katie
Subject: Re: OP, Did Mili ask your permission? (Re: Mili's Bogus Supporters)
Message:
Myself and others have asked mili repeatedly why he tried to get the newsgroup banned and he hasn't answered yet.I find it strange because he normally answers everything adressed to him.
Look, you idiot, I AM NOT ALLOWED TO BE POSTING HERE ANYMORE - concensus opinion! Get it?
Well thanks for calling me an idiot,coming from you it's a compliment I suppose.What do I care about this non-existant concensus you speak of?You're free to post;you just did.Answer the question please:Why did you try to get the newsgroup banned?
I'm not sure why Mili tried to get the newsgroup banned (trying to get GMJ's attention is my guess), but there is no consensus opinion for or against Mili posting on here. At least not yet. About five of the 'people' voting for Mili to quit posting on here are from the same ISP address, so I wouldn't hold their opinions to have that much weight. As far as I'm concerned, Mili, you can post as much as you want. Just use your OWN name please. And please answer bftb's question if you can.
Katie
I don't know man. 'bftb', Michael, etc. - if you didn't understand my outrage at being branded a 'cult member' so far, and if you couldn't get it from reading the content of the my request - then what else can I say to make you understand my motive? You will never understand. I can't believe you are so insensitive. This is happening in America - the 'land of liberty, freedom and human rights'? It's the same old Dark Ages stuff! People were stigmatized as 'Hugenots', 'heretics','witches in covens'... Now, it's 'cults'! I don't know how you can be so blind to this tacit persecution. The venom really does run deep. I am outta here.
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Date: Mon, Jan 5, 1998 at 03:06:07 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: bftb
Subject: Re: OP, Did Mili ask your permission? (Re: Mili's Bogus Supporters)
Message:
Myself and others have asked mili repeatedly why he tried to get the newsgroup banned and he hasn't answered yet.I find it strange because he normally answers everything adressed to him.
Look, you idiot, I AM NOT ALLOWED TO BE POSTING HERE ANYMORE - concensus opinion! Get it?
Well thanks for calling me an idiot,coming from you it's a compliment I suppose.What do I care about this non-existant concensus you speak of?You're free to post;you just did.Answer the question please:Why did you try to get the newsgroup banned?
In my opinion, the newsgroup is biased because of its title as it instills the prejudice of 'cult' - a loaded word, thus bringing any practicing premie in the whole world into a most disadvanageous situation. It's like having a newsgroup called alt.nigger. Get it?
Here is the reply I gave to JW. Try to understand it - it's written in English, for Chrissakes!
You know, Mili, I used to actually have some respect for you. Unfortunately it's gone. I really thought you were someone who received knowledge and did whatever in the hell you wanted, didn't give up anything, and enjoy doing meditation. Therefore, since you never saw M as god, but just a meditation teacher, I could sort of accept that, although I thought it was a myopic view of M nonetheless.
Other than that, I just saw you as an eccentric recluse, prone to outbursts of name-calling, which might be partly due, as CD suggested, to the fact that you live in a part of the world that has suffered such homocidal hatred and violence in the last few years. Maybe that has had an effect on your brain. Wouldn't be surprised.
But this is a new low, even for you Mili. It's obvious you are playing the game that others have suggested: You are trying to protect Maharaji at all cost. You don't even have an excuse. Hypocracy in the extreme.
JW
JW, you said you cared for people with AIDS. Then you should be able to understand what I'm trying to do here - I am standing up for a stigmatized minority group that has a website and newsgroup dedicated to their humiliation and persecution. Maybe I am not doing a good job of it, but at least it's a start.
I don't understand you guys - you used to be liberal, open-minded... Now you come on as the most conservative of bigots. And, hey, you are doing it to people whom you even KNOW,personally.
Disgusting.
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Date: Mon, Jan 5, 1998 at 07:39:38 (EST)
Poster: Brian
Email:
To: op
Subject: Re: OP, re $ybernetics, and thus off topic (Re: Mili's Bogus Supporters)
Message:
You would get absolutely no argument from me were you to post that you thought Bill West was an idiot. Okay, I'll say it myself, "Bill West is an idiot". There. I would cross-post it (in keeping with his generous sharing of his views) but the forum software doesn't allow it, and anyway I can't seem to get "alt.devotees.ted.patrick" on my newsreader.
Re: Scientology and other terrible cults. Do you believe "Elron" had any personality flaws? Were you able to descern them on your own, or did you see it on TV?
I'm gonna let you go back to "thinking" now. I've interrupted you and you're probably gonna have to start all over again.
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Date: Mon, Jan 5, 1998 at 11:17:40 (EST)
Poster: bftb
Email:
To: Mili
Subject: Re: OP, Did Mili ask your permission? (Re: Mili's Bogus Supporters)
Message:
Mili,I think I've got a better handle on your outrage now.What I mean is that I believe you are sincere in how you are interpreting this site as an attack on premies...etc.
The thing is though,I believe you're wrong.I think that your interpretation(although somewhat understandable coming from your perspective)is not accurate.This forum(and the newsgroup) doesn't exist to attack anyone.It exists to serve as a place where people who feel somehow victimised(or any other people with any other feelings for that matter)by M/EV(whether we agree with their feelings or not is irrelevant)can discuss and work through all the things that are on their minds/hearts regarding the whole arena of knowledge.If in the process people express anger and say things you find offensive-well what can you do?It's how they feel.Remove the newsgroup or remove the whole internet-these people will still feel this way.Nobody is persecuting anyone here, although you have come very close by trying to shut down free speech.
When I was a premie I welcomed dissenting opinions,I especially loved debating people who dared call it a cult.Never got me riled or hurt my feelings once.I would defend/rationalise/justify M+EV until the cows came home.At that time I was so certain as to the validity of the whole world of knowledge that even a website like this,or a nightly "anti maharaji mind control destructive cult information hour" television show hosted by a 'deprogrammer',would have not even made a dent.
So,when I ask you why you tried to shut down the newsgroup I should ask it more precisely.I know your 'reasoning'-what I really wanted to know was how you could possibly have thought that an attempt at suppression of dissenting opinion in this day and age could do anything but backfire as terribly as it has.I guess I'm trying to understand your logic.What did you really think would happen?
p.s.-Don't let the cult word bug you,all it means really is"a system of religious worship" in this day and age.There are so very many cults ranging from elvis to moon to catholicism to....endless really.Most humans are involved in one cult or another whether they realise it or not.
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Date: Mon, Jan 5, 1998 at 12:09:17 (EST)
Poster: Mr Ex
Email:
To: bftb
Subject: Re: OP, Did Mili ask your permission? (Re: Mili's Bogus Supporters)
Message:
Mr PP Rawat used to call that kind of guy a 'good deed doer'.
Some kind of 'mind' desease in the 'world of knowledge'.
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Date: Mon, Jan 5, 1998 at 12:36:10 (EST)
Poster: Mr Ex
Email:
To: Mr Ex
Subject: Re: OP, Did Mili ask your permission? (Re: Mili's Bogus Supporters)
Message:
Good Deed Doer : out of control ‘active’ premie.
The kind of person who does things for the sake of doing them (to keep himself busy, in the frenzy of serving his Lord ......)
or
You don’t know anything, I know everything, just don’t do anything unless I ask
(obey my agyas and that’s good enough for you people without brains _ you stupid enough to kiss my feet, brainwashed people)
This is the kind of ‘care’ Mr PPS Rawat has for his devoted followers.
If you want to do something, send me a check or a bank transfer, or ‘help’ in Amtext Inc. or work for free in National Safety Association.
If you don’t have time or money, go and help in Elan Vital, they will keep you busy doing nothing.
Whatever M**i is feeling now must be full of hate and guilt.
I think he’s sick enough to open a new ‘premie site’ ..... that kind of disease usually lasts for ever, until the next serious brainwashing session at least !
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Date: Wed, Jan 14, 1998 at 06:51:25 (EST)
Poster: And On Anand Ji
Email: aoa
To: --------
Subject: Re: OP, Did Mili ask your permission? (Re: Mili's Bogus Supporters)
Message:
I don't know man. 'bftb', Michael, etc. - if you didn't understand my outrage at being branded a 'cult member' so far, and if you couldn't get it from reading the content of the my request - then what else can I say to make you understand my motive? You will never understand. I can't believe you are so insensitive. This is happening in America - the 'land of liberty, freedom and human rights'? It's the same old Dark Ages stuff! People were stigmatized as 'Hugenots', 'heretics','witches in covens'... Now, it's 'cults'! I don't know how you can be so blind to this tacit persecution. The venom really does run deep. I am outta here.
Mili's correct -- being branded a cult member is
sufficient reason to do anything one thinks will
reduce such stigma. I remember strongly disliking
any references to "cult" while I was in one. And
try not to forget, one of the qualities of being
susceptible to cult membership is a disbelief that
this, your chosen thing, can ever be a cult. Your
special group is the exception, because of blah blah
blah. Your group is not the cult religion, but Jones
and his followers at Jonestown were; but Scientology
is; but Heaven's Gate was.
Anybody but your group.
Silencing a.c.m is one practical step to reduce the
stigma of being branded a cult, if one can get away
with such tactics.
***************************************************
Asking Mili if he thought he could get away with it
is perhaps the only remaining valid question about
his attempt to silence the newsgroup.
***************************************************
I understand his motive, without explanation. What I
don't understand are his tactics -- on the other hand,
I've seen enough of those kinds of tactics not to admire
them, but to understand they exist and people try them,
in both ignorance and in desparation -- perhaps, in both
at the same time.
Zero tactical forethought. I understand that. Didn't
think it through at all. Just had a thought, and did
what the thought said. I get it. No forethinking. No
plan-ahead.
Think, and do!
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