Ex-Premie.Org

Forum II Archive # 3

From: Dec 31, 1997

To: Jan 20, 1998

Page: 2 Of: 5


Mr Ex -:- Mind control, rhetoric & redefine r -:- Sat, Jan 10, 1998 at 04:22:21 (EST)
___Mr Ex -:- Go and watch this! -:- Sat, Jan 10, 1998 at 05:16:02 (EST)
___Sir David -:- Re: Go and watch this! -:- Sat, Jan 10, 1998 at 07:46:15 (EST)
___Brian -:- Re: Go and watch this! -:- Sat, Jan 10, 1998 at 08:49:55 (EST)
___A -:- what i think -:- Sat, Jan 10, 1998 at 11:01:11 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: Go and watch this! -:- Sat, Jan 10, 1998 at 11:08:21 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: Mind control, rhetoric & redefine r -:- Sat, Jan 10, 1998 at 11:19:26 (EST)
___CD -:- Re: Go and watch this! -:- Sat, Jan 10, 1998 at 16:42:30 (EST)
___CD -:- Re: Mind control, rhetoric & redefine r -:- Sat, Jan 10, 1998 at 16:52:01 (EST)
___DJK -:- Re: Mind control, rhetoric & redefine r -:- Sun, Jan 11, 1998 at 01:28:02 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: Mind control, rhetoric & redefine r -:- Sun, Jan 11, 1998 at 11:22:24 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: Mind control, rhetoric & redefine r -:- Sun, Jan 11, 1998 at 11:24:57 (EST)
___Anon -:- Re: Go and watch this! -:- Sun, Jan 11, 1998 at 21:55:45 (EST)
___Mr Ex -:- Watching videos -:- Mon, Jan 12, 1998 at 06:39:41 (EST)
___a -:- Re: Watching videos -:- Mon, Jan 12, 1998 at 08:00:35 (EST)
___it gets -:- easier -:- Mon, Jan 12, 1998 at 17:32:48 (EST)

Happy -:- To leave what ? or where? -:- Fri, Jan 9, 1998 at 17:36:37 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: To leave what ? or where? -:- Fri, Jan 9, 1998 at 19:24:10 (EST)
___And On Anand Ji -:- Re: To leave what ? or where? -:- Sat, Jan 10, 1998 at 06:20:09 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: To leave what ? or where? -:- Sat, Jan 10, 1998 at 11:00:03 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: To leave what ? or where? -:- Sat, Jan 10, 1998 at 11:39:18 (EST)
___And On Anand Ji -:- Re: To leave what? or where? (ARTI) -:- Sat, Jan 10, 1998 at 12:20:59 (EST)
___And On Anand Ji -:- Re: To leave what ? or where? -:- Sat, Jan 10, 1998 at 13:35:22 (EST)
___mc dermott the great -:- pretender -:- Sat, Jan 10, 1998 at 14:30:40 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: To leave what ? or where? -:- Sat, Jan 10, 1998 at 22:51:37 (EST)
___And On Anand Ji -:- Re: To leave what ? or where? -:- Sun, Jan 11, 1998 at 01:29:56 (EST)

Nigel -:- Signing off... -:- Fri, Jan 9, 1998 at 15:37:21 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: Signing off... -:- Fri, Jan 9, 1998 at 15:45:32 (EST)
___Seymour -:- Re: Signing off... -:- Fri, Jan 9, 1998 at 16:24:41 (EST)
___Nigel -:- Re: Signing off... -:- Sat, Jan 10, 1998 at 17:33:59 (EST)
___seymour -:- Re: Signing off... -:- Sun, Jan 11, 1998 at 13:24:13 (EST)
___Nigel -:- Re: Signing off... -:- Sun, Jan 11, 1998 at 17:14:22 (EST)

And On Anand Ji -:- Book Cites -:- Fri, Jan 9, 1998 at 08:39:13 (EST)
___And On Anand Ji -:- Re: Book Cites - Steel Plate Pie Detroit (Voices From The Underground) -:- Fri, Jan 9, 1998 at 09:00:13 (EST)
___Posts should be renamed -:- pies -:- Fri, Jan 9, 1998 at 15:11:50 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: Book Cites -:- Fri, Jan 9, 1998 at 22:57:07 (EST)

JW -:- Why Do Premies Leave -:- Fri, Jan 9, 1998 at 00:03:01 (EST)
___Sir David -:- Re: Why Do Premies Leave -:- Fri, Jan 9, 1998 at 13:56:00 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: Why Do Premies Leave -:- Fri, Jan 9, 1998 at 14:24:10 (EST)
___Sir David -:- Re: Why Do Premies Leave -:- Fri, Jan 9, 1998 at 22:07:59 (EST)
___Chuck Cliff -:- Re: Why Do Premies Leave -:- Sat, Jan 10, 1998 at 02:27:43 (EST)

JW -:- The Cult and Afterwards -:- Thurs, Jan 8, 1998 at 23:41:17 (EST)
___Sir David -:- Re: The Cult and Afterwards -:- Fri, Jan 9, 1998 at 08:32:54 (EST)
___Joy -:- Re: The Cult and Afterwards -:- Fri, Jan 9, 1998 at 12:53:25 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: The Cult and Afterwards -:- Fri, Jan 9, 1998 at 14:21:36 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: The Cult and Afterwards -:- Fri, Jan 9, 1998 at 14:46:29 (EST)
___sure -:- it matters -:- Fri, Jan 9, 1998 at 14:59:03 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: The Cult and Afterwards -:- Fri, Jan 9, 1998 at 15:09:22 (EST)
___Mickey the Pharisee -:- Re: The Cult and Afterwards -:- Fri, Jan 9, 1998 at 17:26:32 (EST)
___Gregg -:- Re: The Cult and Afterwards -:- Fri, Jan 9, 1998 at 21:27:21 (EST)
___And On Anand Ji -:- Re: The Cult and Afterwards -:- Sat, Jan 10, 1998 at 05:59:44 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: The Cult and Afterwards -:- Sat, Jan 10, 1998 at 11:46:40 (EST)
___Joy -:- Re: it matters -:- Sat, Jan 10, 1998 at 13:23:26 (EST)
___Joy -:- Re: The Cult and Afterwards -:- Sat, Jan 10, 1998 at 13:30:30 (EST)
___It REALLY -:- matters -:- Sat, Jan 10, 1998 at 14:16:11 (EST)
___Nigel (still here) -:- A FOURTH CRITERION -:- Sat, Jan 10, 1998 at 17:45:56 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: A FOURTH CRITERION -:- Sat, Jan 10, 1998 at 19:13:43 (EST)

Witheld -:- Considerations -:- Thurs, Jan 8, 1998 at 20:50:51 (EST)
___Mr Ex -:- Re: Considerations -:- Fri, Jan 9, 1998 at 05:01:48 (EST)
___C -:- D -:- Fri, Jan 9, 1998 at 08:29:39 (EST)
___Sir David -:- Re: Considerations -:- Sat, Jan 10, 1998 at 09:32:16 (EST)
___Brian -:- Re: Considerations -:- Sat, Jan 10, 1998 at 11:17:24 (EST)
___seymour -:- Re: Considerations -:- Sun, Jan 11, 1998 at 13:41:50 (EST)

Jim(brother of 2) -:- THEY PAID THE ULTIMATE PRICE -:- Thurs, Jan 8, 1998 at 17:57:10 (EST)
___----------------------------------- -:- THEY PAID THE ULTIMATE PRICE -:- Fri, Jan 9, 1998 at 21:29:22 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: THEY PAID THE ULTIMATE PRICE -:- Fri, Jan 9, 1998 at 22:52:03 (EST)

JW -:- Emotions/Thinking and Meditation -:- Thurs, Jan 8, 1998 at 14:20:42 (EST)
___John K. -:- Re: Emotions/Thinking and Meditation -:- Thurs, Jan 8, 1998 at 15:47:39 (EST)
___'that -:- place' -:- Thurs, Jan 8, 1998 at 16:37:13 (EST)
___Mike -:- Gently, softly, catchy monkey -:- Thurs, Jan 8, 1998 at 17:48:10 (EST)
___Sir David -:- is this place -:- Thurs, Jan 8, 1998 at 20:34:27 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: is this place -:- Fri, Jan 9, 1998 at 00:07:53 (EST)

JW -:- Ashrams (Closed) -:- Thurs, Jan 8, 1998 at 01:55:53 (EST)
___And On Anand Ji -:- Re: Ashrams (Closed) -:- Thurs, Jan 8, 1998 at 02:09:51 (EST)
___op -:- Re: Ashrams (Closed) -:- Thurs, Jan 8, 1998 at 03:45:09 (EST)
___Mr Ex -:- Re: Ashrams (Closed) -:- Thurs, Jan 8, 1998 at 06:06:01 (EST)
___Sir David -:- Re: Ashrams (Closed) -:- Thurs, Jan 8, 1998 at 06:27:01 (EST)
___Brian -:- Re: Ashrams (Closed) -:- Thurs, Jan 8, 1998 at 08:19:45 (EST)
___his -:- story -:- Thurs, Jan 8, 1998 at 09:15:33 (EST)
___Read this OP.. -:- Re: Ashrams 1 -:- Thurs, Jan 8, 1998 at 09:21:48 (EST)
___Read this OP.. -:- Re: Ashrams -:- Thurs, Jan 8, 1998 at 09:26:35 (EST)
___Mr Ex -:- Re: Ashrams (Closed) -:- Thurs, Jan 8, 1998 at 09:50:08 (EST)
___Mike -:- Re: Ashrams (Closed) -:- Thurs, Jan 8, 1998 at 10:26:08 (EST)
___happiness -:- is a warm -:- Thurs, Jan 8, 1998 at 10:27:05 (EST)
___jim esquire -:- to the stand please -:- Thurs, Jan 8, 1998 at 10:30:01 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: Ashrams (Closed) -:- Thurs, Jan 8, 1998 at 13:12:12 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: is a warm -:- Thurs, Jan 8, 1998 at 13:38:31 (EST)
___Jim(brother of 2) -:- Re: Ashrams (Closed) -:- Thurs, Jan 8, 1998 at 16:48:32 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: Ashrams (Closed) -:- Thurs, Jan 8, 1998 at 17:09:57 (EST)
___Brian -:- Re: Ashrams (Closed) -:- Fri, Jan 9, 1998 at 12:55:38 (EST)

Gregg -:- Incestuousness -:- Wed, Jan 7, 1998 at 21:50:18 (EST)
___Sir David -:- Re: Incestuousness -:- Wed, Jan 7, 1998 at 22:21:07 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: Incestuousness -:- Wed, Jan 7, 1998 at 22:22:35 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: Incestuousness -:- Thurs, Jan 8, 1998 at 01:40:55 (EST)

Andrew -:- Re: On closure -:- Wed, Jan 7, 1998 at 20:51:51 (EST)

Asst. to webmaster -:- We know who you are -:- Wed, Jan 7, 1998 at 15:38:16 (EST)
___John K. -:- Re: We know who you are -:- Wed, Jan 7, 1998 at 15:57:15 (EST)
___Asst. to Webmaster -:- Re: We know who you are -:- Wed, Jan 7, 1998 at 16:19:44 (EST)
___Mickey the Pharisee -:- Re: We know who you are -:- Wed, Jan 7, 1998 at 18:10:08 (EST)
___CD -:- Re: We know who you are -:- Wed, Jan 7, 1998 at 23:08:10 (EST)
___Katie -:- It's me, CD -:- Thurs, Jan 8, 1998 at 15:20:11 (EST)

JW -:- Photos -:- Wed, Jan 7, 1998 at 13:32:41 (EST)
___Brian -:- Re: Photos -:- Thurs, Jan 8, 1998 at 07:56:36 (EST)

JW -:- Maharaji Foundation of America -:- Wed, Jan 7, 1998 at 13:09:54 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: Maharaji Foundation of America -:- Wed, Jan 7, 1998 at 13:18:29 (EST)
___Brian -:- Re: Maharaji Foundation of America -:- Thurs, Jan 8, 1998 at 08:12:44 (EST)

John Cavad -:- WebSite Publicity -:- Wed, Jan 7, 1998 at 11:39:04 (EST)
___And On Anand Ji -:- Re: WebSite Publicity -:- Wed, Jan 7, 1998 at 12:07:55 (EST)
___And On Anand Ji -:- Re: WebSite Publicity -:- Wed, Jan 7, 1998 at 12:12:48 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: WebSite Publicity -:- Wed, Jan 7, 1998 at 12:32:00 (EST)
___Andrew -:- Re: WebSite Publicity -:- Thurs, Jan 8, 1998 at 02:27:36 (EST)
___daddy- -:- O -:- Thurs, Jan 8, 1998 at 11:41:33 (EST)
___John Cavad -:- Re: WebSite Publicity -:- Thurs, Jan 8, 1998 at 12:27:16 (EST)
___And On Anand Ji -:- Re: WebSite Publicity -:- Thurs, Jan 8, 1998 at 13:06:03 (EST)
___bftb -:- Re: WebSite Publicity -:- Thurs, Jan 8, 1998 at 13:53:10 (EST)
___And On Anand Ji -:- Re: WebSite Publicity -:- Thurs, Jan 8, 1998 at 15:20:05 (EST)
___Andrew -:- Re: WebSite Publicity -:- Fri, Jan 9, 1998 at 20:08:32 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: WebSite Publicity -:- Fri, Jan 9, 1998 at 22:49:57 (EST)
___And On Anand Ji -:- Re: WebSite Publicity -:- Sat, Jan 10, 1998 at 05:19:33 (EST)

Mr Ex -:- News from Balbhagwan ... -:- Wed, Jan 7, 1998 at 10:25:24 (EST)
___And On Anand Ji -:- Re: News from Balbhagwan ... -:- Wed, Jan 7, 1998 at 11:29:40 (EST)
___Rick -:- Re: News from Balbhagwan ... -:- Wed, Jan 7, 1998 at 11:33:44 (EST)
___Mr Ex -:- Re: News from Balbhagwan ... -:- Wed, Jan 7, 1998 at 11:43:08 (EST)
___And On Anand Ji -:- Re: News from Balbhagwan ... -:- Wed, Jan 7, 1998 at 11:48:26 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: News from Balbhagwan ... -:- Wed, Jan 7, 1998 at 12:28:51 (EST)
___bal bhagwan ji sing along: -:- I've been working on the rrrrrailrroad all the live long day! -:- Wed, Jan 7, 1998 at 16:43:10 (EST)
___John K. -:- Re: I've been working on the rrrrrailrroad all the live long day! -:- Wed, Jan 7, 1998 at 17:17:49 (EST)
___both -:- feet on the -:- Wed, Jan 7, 1998 at 17:34:31 (EST)
___Mickey the Pharisee -:- Re: News from Balbhagwan ... -:- Wed, Jan 7, 1998 at 17:57:13 (EST)
___a future prime minister -:- and the lord, better than the kennedys -:- Wed, Jan 7, 1998 at 19:54:26 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: I've been working on the rrrrrailrroad all the live long day! -:- Thurs, Jan 8, 1998 at 01:51:19 (EST)
___And On Anand Ji -:- Re: I've been working on the rrrrrailrroad all the live long day! -:- Thurs, Jan 8, 1998 at 02:44:24 (EST)
___op -:- Re: I've been working on the rrrrrailrroad all the live long day! -:- Thurs, Jan 8, 1998 at 03:04:07 (EST)

Nigel -:- To Seymour & JW (science,morality.. -:- Tues, Jan 6, 1998 at 15:37:22 (EST)
___the elements,dna, -:- and the smartness -:- Wed, Jan 7, 1998 at 23:23:48 (EST)
___CD -:- Re: and the smartness -:- Wed, Jan 7, 1998 at 23:36:11 (EST)
___Mr Ex -:- Re: and the smartness -:- Thurs, Jan 8, 1998 at 04:20:35 (EST)
___here comes the -:- god, yada yada -:- Thurs, Jan 8, 1998 at 11:12:19 (EST)
___And On Anand Ji -:- Re: and the smartness -:- Thurs, Jan 8, 1998 at 15:24:40 (EST)
___CD -:- Re: god, yada yada -:- Thurs, Jan 8, 1998 at 23:02:09 (EST)
___CD -:- Re: and the smartness -:- Thurs, Jan 8, 1998 at 23:11:42 (EST)
___CD -:- Re: and the smartness -:- Thurs, Jan 8, 1998 at 23:30:36 (EST)
___Mr Ex -:- Sophism and BS philosophy -:- Fri, Jan 9, 1998 at 05:29:47 (EST)
___seymour_t@rocketmail.com -:- Re: To Seymour & JW (science,morality.. -:- Fri, Jan 9, 1998 at 16:15:26 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: Sophism and BS philosophy -:- Fri, Jan 9, 1998 at 17:03:02 (EST)
___CD -:- Re: Sophism and BS philosophy -:- Fri, Jan 9, 1998 at 22:16:03 (EST)
___Mr Ex -:- Re: Sophism and BS philosophy -:- Sat, Jan 10, 1998 at 04:32:20 (EST)
___Nigel -:- Re: and the smartness -:- Sat, Jan 10, 1998 at 17:43:53 (EST)
___the -:- bastardness -:- Sat, Jan 10, 1998 at 22:25:07 (EST)

Mindman -:- Suggestion -:- Tues, Jan 6, 1998 at 14:13:23 (EST)
___Mr. Oxymoron -:- Wah-oh-Wah-Wah -:- Tues, Jan 6, 1998 at 14:56:23 (EST)
___Xena -:- Re: Suggestion -:- Tues, Jan 6, 1998 at 23:34:50 (EST)
___Xeno -:- Re: phobia -:- Wed, Jan 7, 1998 at 02:02:41 (EST)
___Xeno -:- Re: phobia -:- Wed, Jan 7, 1998 at 02:03:03 (EST)
___agora -:- Re: phobia -:- Wed, Jan 7, 1998 at 02:10:19 (EST)
___** -:- ** -:- Wed, Jan 7, 1998 at 07:33:47 (EST)
___which fear is -:- agoraphobia anyway -:- Wed, Jan 7, 1998 at 07:37:07 (EST)
___And On Anand Ji -:- Re: agoraphobia anyway -:- Wed, Jan 7, 1998 at 08:29:06 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: Suggestion -:- Wed, Jan 7, 1998 at 13:48:01 (EST)
___ladoos -:- from washington? -:- Wed, Jan 7, 1998 at 17:24:41 (EST)
___And On Anand -:- Re: from washington? -:- Wed, Jan 7, 1998 at 19:07:24 (EST)
___And On Anand -:- Re: from washington? -:- Wed, Jan 7, 1998 at 19:09:52 (EST)
___Your -:- Linuxness -:- Wed, Jan 7, 1998 at 19:31:17 (EST)
___And On Anand Ji -:- Re: Linuxness -:- Thurs, Jan 8, 1998 at 01:23:07 (EST)
___Greetings and Salutations -:- Your Linuxness -:- Thurs, Jan 8, 1998 at 11:20:42 (EST)



Date: Sat, Jan 10, 1998 at 04:22:21 (EST)
Poster: Mr Ex
Email:
To: Everyone
Subject: Mind control, rhetoric & redefine r
Message:
I’ve never liked that ‘mind control’ theory very well, because I couldn’t figure out how it works with m&k. In the old days, you could say that there was the environment controlled ashrams, those mind-controllers instructors, the ‘commandments’, controlled meditation (retreats), etc All these disappeared in the 80s, which allows m’s PR to say that he abandoned the Indian cult. How could this be ‘mind control’, when everything m says looks so beautiful, when you experience such beautiful feelings when you are with him, etc, there is no physical pressure, the environment is nice, nice new age music, all these beautiful people, blabla There has to be something more subtle, or what he says is true, and there is truly no mind control. After watching a few recent videos, something hit me very hard : m hasn’t been speaking about (what he calls) mind lately, nor does he speak so much about negative things or about things premies shouldn’t do : he even dares to say that he doesn’t promote any lifestyle and that he doesn’t give any direction for people’s lives. He is very positive. But his rhetoric is quite odd : he tells plenty of nice small stories (sophism) to introduce the fact that our definition (and the world’s definition) of reality is wrong and that reality’s definition it has to be changed (as well as a few others)! The whole thing is about redefining reality and a few major concepts: the ‘world of knowledge’ (wok) is reality! And what does this wok consist of? Feeling that devotion, that beauty (within), etc : this is reality. Any other thing is not real. When you’ve heard this (in every video) for dozens or hundreds of times, YOU ARE BRAINWASHED. No need to speak of the devilish mind, no need to devote your life in the ashram, no need of controllers or people to surrender to, all the nazis are unemployed : YOUR REALITY IS THIS WOK THAT YOU HAVE TO LIVE IN. Watching videos, going at events with m, preferably on the lands where you might have opportunities for darshan and pranam, doing service at the residence, in Amtext or NSA, etc M now gives HIS definition of reality and forces his followers to accept it : THIS IS MIND CONTROL I feel much better understanding this. I would like to take some time, work on one of his recent satsang, and analyze step by step how his rhetoric now works. I think he does a good sophist job. What do you think?
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jan 10, 1998 at 05:16:02 (EST)
Poster: Mr Ex
Email:
To: Mr Ex
Subject: Go and watch this! (Re: Mind control, rhetoric & redefine r)
Message:
Suggestion to ex’s : Why don’t you go watch a video from time to time? Entrance at video projection is FREE. (Entrance at m’s event is also free : you’ll be very strongly suggested to make a ‘donation’. You’ll answer that you can’t, that it is publicly said that it’s free, and it’ll be OK. You might even meet some heavy guy trying to convince you to donate, but you don’t have to. They won’t go into a big discussion because it causes a lot of trouble. Security might watch you, or they’ll give you a seat in some special area (you won’t notice) that’s carefully guarded, but that will be fine. That will keep the _still_ huge security busy.) You can even take a friend with you. I find it very healthy and part of my healing process. I discuss m’s rhetoric with the person who comes with me & with premie friends from time to time. It helps me a lot to understand how I’ve been seduced by m’s BS theories, and what still is a problem to me. The whole thing is quite fascinating actually : the setup, the music, the sophisms, the stupidities. Recording is still forbidden, but if you have a good silent device in your coat’s pocket that you’ll start in the toilets, nobody will care.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jan 10, 1998 at 07:46:15 (EST)
Poster: Sir David
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: Mr Ex
Subject: Re: Go and watch this! (Re: Mind control, rhetoric & redefine r)
Message:
Some people can go and watch a video or even see Maharaji without any ill effect but I'm afraid that in me, I have developed a neurosis from the years I spent listening to heavy satsang from premies and Maharaji. In case people don't know how a neurosis works, it is the result of past abuse that suddenly becomes unlocked by a trigger. I am literally afraid of listening to any of Maharaji's satsangs because of this. Just a few words can turn me into a nervious wreck. I appreciate that most ex-premies don't experience this and I also realise that this is probably the result of other neurises which I developed as a child. However, I think there may be some other ex-premies who can relate to it.
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Date: Sat, Jan 10, 1998 at 08:49:55 (EST)
Poster: Brian
Email:
To: Sir David
Subject: Re: Go and watch this! (Re: Mind control, rhetoric & redefine r)
Message:
Some people can go and watch a video or even see Maharaji without any ill effect but I'm afraid that in me, I have developed a neurosis from the years I spent listening to heavy satsang from premies and Maharaji. In case people don't know how a neurosis works, it is the result of past abuse that suddenly becomes unlocked by a trigger. I am literally afraid of listening to any of Maharaji's satsangs because of this. Just a few words can turn me into a nervious wreck. I appreciate that most ex-premies don't experience this and I also realise that this is probably the result of other neurises which I developed as a child. However, I think there may be some other ex-premies who can relate to it. It's amazing to see how we thought we were over certain problems in our lives after MJ became so central to our being. All of the "attachments" we gave up, we gave to him. All of the inner structure was torn down, and re-erected around him. Were you the sort of woman who would blindly overlook your man's failings? You now blindly overlook his. Were you the sort of man who would become angry if someone were to "attack" your causes in life (like peace, justice, equal opportunity)? You now get angry only if someone "attacks" MJ. On and on. And we thought we were actually making progress as beings by becoming devoted to him. Meet the new boss...
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Date: Sat, Jan 10, 1998 at 11:01:11 (EST)
Poster: A
Email:
To: Mr Ex
Subject: what i think (Re: Mind control, rhetoric & redefine r)
Message:
I think you are quacked.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jan 10, 1998 at 11:08:21 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email: joger02@aol.com
To: Mr Ex
Subject: Re: Go and watch this! (Re: Mind control, rhetoric & redefine r)
Message:
Suggestion to ex’s : Why don’t you go watch a video from time to time? Entrance at video projection is FREE. (Entrance at m’s event is also free : you’ll be very strongly suggested to make a ‘donation’. You’ll answer that you can’t, that it is publicly said that it’s free, and it’ll be OK. You might even meet some heavy guy trying to convince you to donate, but you don’t have to. They won’t go into a big discussion because it causes a lot of trouble. Security might watch you, or they’ll give you a seat in some special area (you won’t notice) that’s carefully guarded, but that will be fine. That will keep the _still_ huge security busy.) You can even take a friend with you. I find it very healthy and part of my healing process. I discuss m’s rhetoric with the person who comes with me & with premie friends from time to time. It helps me a lot to understand how I’ve been seduced by m’s BS theories, and what still is a problem to me. The whole thing is quite fascinating actually : the setup, the music, the sophisms, the stupidities. Recording is still forbidden, but if you have a good silent device in your coat’s pocket that you’ll start in the toilets, nobody will care. Very interestging Mr. Ex, and I have thought of going to a program, mostly to see what gets edited out of the videos and also to just see my own reaction. But don't you think that people, like me, who post regularly on the ex-premie forum, and whose names feelings about M are quite well known to anyone who wants to look, might be banned by security from the program? Don't you think his "large" security force, some of whom I have known and are NOT nice people, has our names and might well prevent us from entering? I suppose I could cause a "scene" but I don't want to do that, and I would hate to show up at a program and be denied entrance. What do you think? What do you think? Do you think Jim Heller could actually get into a Maharaji program?
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Date: Sat, Jan 10, 1998 at 11:19:26 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: Mr Ex
Subject: Re: Mind control, rhetoric & redefine r
Message:
I’ve never liked that ‘mind control’ theory very well, because I couldn’t figure out how it works with m&k. In the old days, you could say that there was the environment controlled ashrams, those mind-controllers instructors, the ‘commandments’, controlled meditation (retreats), etc All these disappeared in the 80s, which allows m’s PR to say that he abandoned the Indian cult. How could this be ‘mind control’, when everything m says looks so beautiful, when you experience such beautiful feelings when you are with him, etc, there is no physical pressure, the environment is nice, nice new age music, all these beautiful people, blabla There has to be something more subtle, or what he says is true, and there is truly no mind control. After watching a few recent videos, something hit me very hard : m hasn’t been speaking about (what he calls) mind lately, nor does he speak so much about negative things or about things premies shouldn’t do : he even dares to say that he doesn’t promote any lifestyle and that he doesn’t give any direction for people’s lives. He is very positive. But his rhetoric is quite odd : he tells plenty of nice small stories (sophism) to introduce the fact that our definition (and the world’s definition) of reality is wrong and that reality’s definition it has to be changed (as well as a few others)! The whole thing is about redefining reality and a few major concepts: the ‘world of knowledge’ (wok) is reality! And what does this wok consist of? Feeling that devotion, that beauty (within), etc : this is reality. Any other thing is not real. When you’ve heard this (in every video) for dozens or hundreds of times, YOU ARE BRAINWASHED. No need to speak of the devilish mind, no need to devote your life in the ashram, no need of controllers or people to surrender to, all the nazis are unemployed : YOUR REALITY IS THIS WOK THAT YOU HAVE TO LIVE IN. Watching videos, going at events with m, preferably on the lands where you might have opportunities for darshan and pranam, doing service at the residence, in Amtext or NSA, etc M now gives HIS definition of reality and forces his followers to accept it : THIS IS MIND CONTROL I feel much better understanding this. I would like to take some time, work on one of his recent satsang, and analyze step by step how his rhetoric now works. I think he does a good sophist job. What do you think? I don't like the term "mind control" either. I don't think it's accurate. I would rather say there is a system that does not tolerate criticism or objective thinking. There is group pressure among premies, maharaji, and PAM, NOT to express doubt in M or knowledge. I think that still exists as it did 20 years ago. So, if you have doubts, and probably every single premie does, you discout them since you are not suppose to be having them because you've been given the answer to life and something that is supposed to be "so beautiful," and you NEVER express those dopubts in any format where any other premie, ex-premie or aspirant might hear it. Ever notice how for all the months premies have been posting on the forum we have yet to hear even ONE doubt about M, knowledge or the rest of it from a premie? Sure, sometimes a premie might say, "oh, yes, I went through a period when I doubted and was confused, but that's over now and I see what a wonderful experience, blah, blah, blah." NO premie will talk about a doubt they are currently entertaining. That is mind control, although, again, it's really more subtle than that. It is definitely less blatant than in the past, but it's still there. That's probably part of the reason he has so many fewer followers than he had then. It is probably psychologically a lot easier to leave the whole trip now. Except, I think there are premies around from 15-20 years ago who are still carrying the intense programming from the 70s and 80s as well. It's so ingrained they don't even see it.
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Date: Sat, Jan 10, 1998 at 16:42:30 (EST)
Poster: CD
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: Go and watch this! (Re: Mind control, rhetoric & redefine r)
Message:
JW, I would say that the whole program thing is quite casual. The heavy security stuff you are talking about exists in your imagination. Now if somebody started a ruckus during an event that would be a different situation. I am sure you would be welcome to stop by at a program.
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Date: Sat, Jan 10, 1998 at 16:52:01 (EST)
Poster: CD
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: Mind control, rhetoric & redefine r
Message:
Doubt can manisfest at any time regarding anything. It is possible to imagine that a friend took a missing item. Ever happen to you? People often doubt their own success. A runner may have doubts about finishing the marathon. That is just the way doubts are. Doubts are just ideas labeled as doubts. With ideas there are no absolutes. Anything goes. M is by no means the only person who has discussed how doubt can inhibit achievement.
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Date: Sun, Jan 11, 1998 at 01:28:02 (EST)
Poster: DJK
Email:
To: Mr Ex
Subject: Re: Mind control, rhetoric & redefine r
Message:
Discussing Maharaji must make you guys high. You never stop.
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Date: Sun, Jan 11, 1998 at 11:22:24 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: CD
Subject: Re: Mind control, rhetoric & redefine r
Message:
But M's commandments about "doubt" WAS absolute. You aren't supposed to have them. That tends to cut off the thinking process. Sure, other cult leaders do it, but that doesn't change the fact that it's true. And if you continually suppress your doubts, your thinking becomes restrictive and you lose your ability to judge what is actually happening to you. That certainly happened to me when I was a premie.
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Date: Sun, Jan 11, 1998 at 11:24:57 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: DJK
Subject: Re: Mind control, rhetoric & redefine r
Message:
Discussing Maharaji must make you guys high. You never stop. I stopped for a good 10 years after I left being a premie. So that's not true. In fact, my discussions about Maharaji now flow a lot easier because I feel so detached from him and think that he isn't all that significant. Nevertheless, it's of interest because I spent about fourth of my life following him.
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Date: Sun, Jan 11, 1998 at 21:55:45 (EST)
Poster: Anon
Email:
To: Sir David
Subject: Re: Go and watch this! (Re: Mind control, rhetoric & redefine r)
Message:
Some people can go and watch a video or even see Maharaji without any ill effect but I'm afraid that in me, I have developed a neurosis from the years I spent listening to heavy satsang from premies and Maharaji. In case people don't know how a neurosis works, it is the result of past abuse that suddenly becomes unlocked by a trigger. I am literally afraid of listening to any of Maharaji's satsangs because of this. Just a few words can turn me into a nervious wreck. I appreciate that most ex-premies don't experience this and I also realise that this is probably the result of other neurises which I developed as a child. However, I think there may be some other ex-premies who can relate to it. I can relate to this. I actually get a physical reaction from going to programmes. The whole thing literally brings about a gut reaction that I am powerless to subdue. It is annoying as I would like to go along for the reasons Mr Ex states. I seem to have developed an 'Irritable Bowel Syndrome' which is exacerbated by the tension I feel when in that atmosphere. I love the idea of meditation too but I am put off by the adverse reaction that comes upon me from the mere association that I have with the practice and the past traumas I have been through. I am currently powerless to resist this reaction. It is one of the main reasons I stopped going.
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Date: Mon, Jan 12, 1998 at 06:39:41 (EST)
Poster: Mr Ex
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Watching videos (Re: Mind control, rhetoric & redefine r)
Message:
>Sir David said : >Some people can go and watch a video or even see Maharaji without any ill effect but >I'm afraid that in me, I have developed a neurosis from the years I spent listening to >heavy satsang from premies and Maharaji. >In case people don't know how a neurosis works, it is the result of past abuse that >suddenly becomes unlocked by a trigger. I am literally afraid of listening to any of >Maharaji's satsangs because of this. Just a few words can turn me into a nervious >wreck. I appreciate that most ex-premies don't experience this and I also realise that >this is probably the result of other neurises which I developed as a child. However, I >think there may be some other ex-premies who can relate to it. I don’t have that type of reaction. Obviously many other ex’s have. Did you seek some professional help/therapy? I believe in this. It helped me a lot. >Anon said: >I can relate to this. >I actually get a physical reaction from going to programmes. The whole thing literally >brings about a gut reaction that I am powerless to subdue. It is annoying as I would >like to go along for the reasons Mr Ex states. >I seem to have developed an 'Irritable Bowel Syndrome' which is exacerbated by the >tension I feel when in that atmosphere. I love the idea of meditation too but I am put >off by the adverse reaction that comes upon me from the mere association that I have >with the practice and the past traumas I have been through. I am currently powerless >to resist this reaction. It is one of the main reasons I stopped going. What a reaction! I’m wondering if the fact that I don’t feel any strong reaction like some people do means that I’m still afraid to fully admit how much the whole thing is dangerous and insane. Maybe my intellectual analysis is a protection against a rejection feeling I couldn’t bear because: 1/ I still have so many friends involved in what I now consider as a dangerous cult, and it’s difficult to judge/not to judge them, having a sane attitude towards them. 2/ It’s still extremely difficult for me to admit that the whole thing is phony 3/ It’s been my whole life for 25 years and it’s still difficult to admit that life without ss&m is a valid and joyful experience 4/ Go and watch a video from time to time is a lame excuse to go there and have all these people I know tell me hi and expressing some love for me. 5/ My involvement in this group was also partly seeking some sort of social recognition I was lacking in some other field. 6/ I’m not completely out of this yet! (even though I wouldn’t give a dime or help in any way). That’s obvious. >JW said : >Very interestging Mr. Ex, and I have thought of going to a program, mostly to see what >gets edited out of the videos and also to just see my own reaction. >But don't you think that people, like me, who post regularly on the ex-premie forum, >and whose names feelings about M are quite well known to anyone who wants to look, >might be banned by security from the program? Don't you think his 'large' security >force, some of whom I have known and are NOT nice people, has our names and >might well prevent us from entering? I suppose I could cause a 'scene' but I don't want >to do that, and I would hate to show up at a program and be denied entrance. >What do you think? >What do you think? Do you think Jim Heller could actually get into a Maharaji program? I think there is no problem, as long as you don’t create actual trouble in the venue. M himself said many time that ‘the doors are always opened’. You can tell this if ushers stop you. They won’t discuss this! Premies, even though some of them are very aware of what ex’s might think and do, can’t challenge you (‘you’re in your mind’ after all) _ that might confront them to doubt _ discussing with you is PR’s and some specially trained security/ushers staff members, and they will definitely let you in. Stopping you would very likely create big trouble, and that would jeopardize their beautiful ‘event’. They will also very likely think about it and try to solve what they consider as a problem in an other way. Like having a conversation with you afterwards, or calling you, or waiting to see what happens next. They’ll try to assess what your intentions are. Who knows, you might be coming back ! They won’t jump on you unless you’re drunk, making trouble or you’re having a gun in your pocket. I think that’s a simple policy they have. I don’t know about Jim’s case. 1st they would have to recognize him. That’s unlikely if those people who know him haven’t seen him for so long. Then those people who know him should be at the gate. One of m’s policy is also not to care for these so many unlikely special cases. There are so many unexpected things that might happen. He wants all the focus on him and whatever he wants to do, and all his guru games. As far as I know security and ushers are trained to deal with general emergencies. Then I don’t know. I think we are a little bit over-paranoid. Look how stupid and ridiculous the whole thing is! >A said: >I think you are quacked. That’s some of m’s most graceful gifts to me, and also because I’ve been an instructor and an ashram premie. Remember? We were all jerks. I still am! At least I know now why. Can you imagine spending my whole life being a jerk not knowing why? I love me the way I am, and I’m proud of this.
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Date: Mon, Jan 12, 1998 at 08:00:35 (EST)
Poster: a
Email:
To: Mr Ex
Subject: Re: Watching videos (Re: Mind control, rhetoric & redefine r)
Message:
...3/ It¹s been my whole life for 25 years and it¹s still difficult to admit that life without ss&m is a .... I think that¹s a simple policy they have. I don¹t know about Jim¹s case. ...1st they would have to recognize him. That¹s unlikely if those people who know him haven¹t seen him for so long.... ...I love me the way I am....point one.. a little s&m is probly ok point two.. i think i could ID jim if you want point three: this is beautiful
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Date: Mon, Jan 12, 1998 at 17:32:48 (EST)
Poster: it gets
Email: b
To: Mr Ex
Subject: easier (Re: Mind control, rhetoric & redefine r)
Message:
It became easier for me when I went through an analysis and decided there WAS a concious power and made my own recognition of that and decided to operate based on that view of reality. Evidence is available to be discussed, and I have that view to be my basis in life. You have no doubts about the rightness of your present perspective, so that is a protection from uncertainty. The evidence is a bit overwhelming and that is very helpful. It's brians job to make the convincing of the forum unneccesary, or redundant. The website itself is the eventual location of the real action.
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Date: Fri, Jan 9, 1998 at 17:36:37 (EST)
Poster: Happy
Email:
To: JW
Subject: To leave what ? or where?
Message:
It seems to me that you left whatever you thought you where leaving JW precisely because M was having nothing to do with cults or clubs. Maybe you felt lost because M got rid of all the dogma and all you had left was yourself, which should have been more than enough.....But no. I think you didn't practise or pushed too hard and your ego was hurt, thats not to say that I think your an idiot or anything, just that your aproach to anything at all in this life is crucial. I see myself. Sometimes I am like a bull in a china shop, when all I need to do is relax and enjoy the beauty inside. Really there is the most amazing state you can enjoy and it can be there a lot of the time, not a rare experience as someone posted a couple of days ago. By the way , things are totally relaxed these days. Nobody puts up with the crap that certain premies would give. M saw to that and thank god. I think premies dont socialize nearly as much these days and I certainly dont. Its like a breath of fresh air. I pick the times I want to see M or go to a programme. I work and pay my bills and generally have a good time. I aint fanatical and not many I know are. I feel totally free and would not have it any other way, but there is a lot of gratitude to a man who gave me something that nobody has come near too giving me. Something that just won't go... Warmth inside. (PS.. I was really going to rag you JW, but I think I'll just wish you a Happy New Year and in fact a happy life) Jesus...I've gone all gooey :-) T.
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Date: Fri, Jan 9, 1998 at 19:24:10 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email: joger02@aol.com
To: Happy
Subject: Re: To leave what ? or where?
Message:
It seems to me that you left whatever you thought you where leaving JW precisely because M was having nothing to do with cults or clubs. Maybe you felt lost because M got rid of all the dogma and all you had left was yourself, which should have been more than enough.....But no. I think you didn't practise or pushed too hard and your ego was hurt, thats not to say that I think your an idiot or anything, just that your aproach to anything at all in this life is crucial. I see myself. Sometimes I am like a bull in a china shop, when all I need to do is relax and enjoy the beauty inside. Really there is the most amazing state you can enjoy and it can be there a lot of the time, not a rare experience as someone posted a couple of days ago. By the way , things are totally relaxed these days. Nobody puts up with the crap that certain premies would give. M saw to that and thank god. I think premies dont socialize nearly as much these days and I certainly dont. Its like a breath of fresh air. I pick the times I want to see M or go to a programme. I work and pay my bills and generally have a good time. I aint fanatical and not many I know are. I feel totally free and would not have it any other way, but there is a lot of gratitude to a man who gave me something that nobody has come near too giving me. Something that just won't go... Warmth inside. (PS.. I was really going to rag you JW, but I think I'll just wish you a Happy New Year and in fact a happy life) Jesus...I've gone all gooey :-) T. You can "rag" on me all you want to, "Happy," I am quite used to it, although I think civil discussion is more beneficial. I think you are assuming something not in evidence here. When I "left" (and I'll get to what that means in a minute), the "dogma" surrounding Guru Maharaji was very much going strong. In fact, I "left" just a few months after attending a big program in Miami at which we all kissed his feet, he danced wearing a krishna outfit and carrying a flute, he talked about "total surrender" (to him), and it was also a period when we were still raising millions of dollars to buy M a passenger jet. The "dogma" to do satsang, service and meditation, devote and "pray" to Guru Maharaj Ji for his "grace," dedicate your life in the ashram (moving on to become an initiator) and taking his pronouncements literally was very much going strong. So you are just plain wrong in your assumptions here. Maharaji was saying NOTHING about trusting yourself, his dogma was all about trusting HIM. What I "left" was a belief and faith in Guru Maharaj Ji as god, and his direction as to how to practice knowledge and dedicate to him, and to be happy and fulfilled in life. That's what I left. And it was a very big deal, let me tell you, especially after 10 years of having that faith and following his direction. I mean, I wasn't the perfect devotee, but I made as much effort as I could to follow his direction and his commandments. Didn't you? And you are also wrong about my "practice." I was diligent about practicing satsang, service and meditation, up to the very end, and I "prayed" to Guru Maharaj Ji all the time to such that I could have "the grace of effort" to do so and to follow his commmandment to "never leave room for doubt in my mind." And "Happy" I think you will find it is generally insulting to most ex-premies when a current premie makes the gratuitous assertion that the reason the ex-premie "left" Guru Maharaj Ji was because they didn't "practice" (or "practise" as you Brits spell it), had the wrong "approach," or didn't have the appropriate "understanding." So, I definitely did "practice." Frankly, I don't know what you mean by "pushed to hard," but you certainly aren't in any position to judge that anyway. The "rare" nice experiences I mentioned were meditation experiences. I never said that nice experiences as a premie were "rare." I think they were about the same in number as any other way of life. But I can't re-run history, so I can't say for certain. As to your own experience, I accept that, and I think you should do the same for ex-premies. I'm glad things are so "relaxed" these days and that people don't put up with "crap." But why were they so (what's the opposite or "relaxed") "uptight" before? I'm glad Maharaji is in a more "relaxed" less dogmatic phase. If so, what was that earlier phase about? Happy New Year to you, too.
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Date: Sat, Jan 10, 1998 at 06:20:09 (EST)
Poster: And On Anand Ji
Email: aoa
To: --------
Subject: Re: To leave what ? or where?
Message:
It seems to me that you left whatever you thought you where leaving JW precisely because M was having nothing to do with cults or clubs. Maybe you felt lost because M got rid of all the dogma and all you had left was yourself, which should have been more than enough.....But no. I think you didn't practise or pushed too hard and your ego was hurt, thats not to say that I think your an idiot or anything, just that your aproach to anything at all in this life is crucial. I see myself. Sometimes I am like a bull in a china shop, when all I need to do is relax and enjoy the beauty inside. Really there is the most amazing state you can enjoy and it can be there a lot of the time, not a rare experience as someone posted a couple of days ago. By the way , things are totally relaxed these days. Nobody puts up with the crap that certain premies would give. M saw to that and thank god. I think premies dont socialize nearly as much these days and I certainly dont. Its like a breath of fresh air. I pick the times I want to see M or go to a programme. I work and pay my bills and generally have a good time. I aint fanatical and not many I know are. I feel totally free and would not have it any other way, but there is a lot of gratitude to a man who gave me something that nobody has come near too giving me. Something that just won't go... Warmth inside. (PS.. I was really going to rag you JW, but I think I'll just wish you a Happy New Year and in fact a happy life) Jesus...I've gone all gooey :-) T. You can 'rag' on me all you want to, 'Happy,' I am quite used to it, although I think civil discussion is more beneficial. I think you are assuming something not in evidence here. When I 'left' (and I'll get to what that means in a minute), the 'dogma' surrounding Guru Maharaji was very much going strong. In fact, I 'left' just a few months after attending a big program in Miami at which we all kissed his feet, he danced wearing a krishna outfit and carrying a flute, he talked about 'total surrender' (to him), and it was also a period when we were still raising millions of dollars to buy M a passenger jet. The 'dogma' to do satsang, service and meditation, devote and 'pray' to Guru Maharaj Ji for his 'grace,' dedicate your life in the ashram (moving on to become an initiator) and taking his pronouncements literally was very much going strong. So you are just plain wrong in your assumptions here. Maharaji was saying NOTHING about trusting yourself, his dogma was all about trusting HIM. What I 'left' was a belief and faith in Guru Maharaj Ji as god, and his direction as to how to practice knowledge and dedicate to him, and to be happy and fulfilled in life. That's what I left. And it was a very big deal, let me tell you, especially after 10 years of having that faith and following his direction. I mean, I wasn't the perfect devotee, but I made as much effort as I could to follow his direction and his commandments. Didn't you? And you are also wrong about my 'practice.' I was diligent about practicing satsang, service and meditation, up to the very end, and I 'prayed' to Guru Maharaj Ji all the time to such that I could have 'the grace of effort' to do so and to follow his commmandment to 'never leave room for doubt in my mind.' And 'Happy' I think you will find it is generally insulting to most ex-premies when a current premie makes the gratuitous assertion that the reason the ex-premie 'left' Guru Maharaj Ji was because they didn't 'practice' (or 'practise' as you Brits spell it), had the wrong 'approach,' or didn't have the appropriate 'understanding.' So, I definitely did 'practice.' Frankly, I don't know what you mean by 'pushed to hard,' but you certainly aren't in any position to judge that anyway. The 'rare' nice experiences I mentioned were meditation experiences. I never said that nice experiences as a premie were 'rare.' I think they were about the same in number as any other way of life. But I can't re-run history, so I can't say for certain. As to your own experience, I accept that, and I think you should do the same for ex-premies. I'm glad things are so 'relaxed' these days and that people don't put up with 'crap.' But why were they so (what's the opposite or 'relaxed') 'uptight' before? I'm glad Maharaji is in a more 'relaxed' less dogmatic phase. If so, what was that earlier phase about? Happy New Year to you, too. I left DLM in 1979 because I found that knowledge wasn't panacea; that premies were not good companionship; that Maharaji was unavailable and inaccessible. When I returned, in 1990, the few drugs I had: darshan, and guru puja -- were rendered obsolete, undesireable, and unavailable. That always bothered me greatly; I liked those things much -- they were my assets in a hostile premie world. Think about what they are, though: darshan, and guru puja. That's heavy. And that's what I was in it for. They gave context to meditation, as in these words: Meditation begins in the form of the Master Adoration begins at the feet of the Lord Concentration begins in the words of the Master Libertion begins in the grace of the Lord.
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Date: Sat, Jan 10, 1998 at 11:00:03 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: And On Anand Ji
Subject: Re: To leave what ? or where?
Message:
T. When I returned, in 1990, the few drugs I had: darshan, and guru puja -- were rendered obsolete, undesireable, and unavailable. That always bothered me greatly; I liked those things much -- they were my assets in a hostile premie world. Think about what they are, though: darshan, and guru puja. That's heavy. And that's what I was in it for. They gave context to meditation, as in these words: Meditation begins in the form of the Master Adoration begins at the feet of the Lord Concentration begins in the words of the Master Libertion begins in the grace of the Lord. Are those words the beginning sequence of Arti? They sound so familiar and yet a I can't place where they come from. I know we used to sing them. You're right. At least until the early 80s, the practice of knowledge was quite secondary in the GMJ world, adoration and serving GMJ was the primary purpose of life, and really, the practice of knowledge was considered impossible without him. He inserted himself as THE essential element in the experience of your own life. All bullshit, but nonetheless it was the case. And, in my experience, at least during that period, the majority of premies just lived for the next darshan, the next program where they could get a group high. And then, in between, premies were largely miserable, despite supposedly having been given the secret of life. That you were able to leave in 1979 was quite amazing, given that 1979 was in the middle of the most "heavy" "dark" period of Maharaji's cult. At that time he was literally demanding total surrender and also demanding that hundreds of premies serve him full time and also that premies raise millions of dollars to build that ridiculous plane that he was just so into. It was certainly a "fire and brimstone" period during which Maharaj, especially to the ashram premies and the initiators, spoke literally of the draconian disasters that would befall you if you left him. So, that you had the courage to leave at that time is quite amazing. I certainly didn't. Also, by that time, darshan really stopped being any kind of a positive experience for me. It was more life going to mass or doing a ritual that I thought was good for me. Also, it was sort of guilt-producing because I thought Maharaji looked greasy up close, and not radiant, golden or "perfect" at all, which I had been indoctrinated that he was.. But then, he's started to give darshan again, is dancing at programs and premies are singing all those old devotional "you are god" songs to him. So, what does that mean? Is that kind of period beginning again?
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Date: Sat, Jan 10, 1998 at 11:39:18 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email: joger02@aol.com
To: To Brian
Subject: Re: To leave what ? or where?
Message:
Think about what they are, though: darshan, and guru puja. That's heavy. And that's what I was in it for. They gave context to meditation, as in these words: Meditation begins in the form of the Master Adoration begins at the feet of the Lord Concentration begins in the words of the Master Libertion begins in the grace of the Lord. Brian, can this part of the beginning sequence of arti, which Maharaji personally approved in the 70s, be put permanently somewhere on the new site? I think it summarizes very well the hypocracy of a lot of the revisionist crap Maharaji is saying these days. It's just so clear that the whole trip is STILL about worship and devotion to HIM, despite how he is trying to package himself.
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Date: Sat, Jan 10, 1998 at 12:20:59 (EST)
Poster: And On Anand Ji
Email: aoa
To: --------
Subject: Re: To leave what? or where? (ARTI) (Re: To leave what ? or where?)
Message:
aoaj: When I returned, in 1990, the few drugs I had: darshan, and guru puja -- were rendered obsolete, undesireable, and unavailable. That always bothered me greatly; I liked those things much -- they were my assets in a hostile premie world. Think about what they are, though: darshan, and guru puja. That's heavy. And that's what I was in it for. They gave context to meditation, as in these words: Meditation begins in the form of the Master Adoration begins at the feet of the Lord Concentration begins in the words of the Master Libertion begins in the grace of the Lord. JW: Are those words the beginning sequence of Arti? They sound so familiar and yet a I can't place where they come from. I know we used to sing them. You're right. At least until the early 80s, the practice of knowledge was quite secondary in the GMJ world, adoration and serving GMJ was the primary purpose of life, and really, the practice of knowledge was considered impossible without him. He inserted himself as THE essential element in the experience of your own life. All bullshit, but nonetheless it was the case. [- - - snip! - - -]That was definitely Arti: (this is a bastardized copy; it has some errors in it): Hold your nose and take some dramamine, lest you hurl, vomit or up-chuck, because below is presented the full text of none other than ARTI. Arti (Prayer/song) Meditation begins in the form of our Master Adoration begins at the feet of our Lord Concentration begins in the words of our Master Liberation begins in the grace of our Lord. JAI GURUDEV Maharaji Your glory fills the world Protector of the weary and the weak You bring the death of attachment You bring the mind true detachment Please save us from the ocean deep Jai dev ; Jai Satgurudev CREATOR, Preserver, Destroyer Bow their heads and pray to you All bow and pray to you Scriptures sing your glory Scriptures sing your sweet story Your virtues are ever true Jai dev ; Jai Satgurudev CHANTING, fasting, charity, austerity Will never bring you knowledge of the soul Will never reveal your soul Without the grace of Satguru Without the Knowledge of Satguru Rites and rituals won't reach the goal Jai dev ; Jai Satgurudev IN THE RIVER of bondage to maya All are swept out to sea All are sinking in the depths of the sea Guru's boat is the Holy Name Guru's ship is the Holy Word In seconds he has set us free Jai dev ; Jai Satgurudev ANGER desires attachments Rob us of enternal life Take away our heavenly life Satguru gives true knowledge Satguru is eternal knowledge The sword that kills our problem life Jai dev ; Jai Satgurudev RELIGIONS SING their own glories Call me to follow their own path Welcome me to follow their own way The essence of all was revealed The seed of all was revealed I walk on the true way today Jai dev ; Jai Satgurudev NECTAR from Satguru's feet is so holy and it cleans us of our sins So sacred in cleaning us of sins When he speaks darkness flies away When he speaks darkness cannot stay Doubts removed, new life then begins Jai dev ; Jai Satgurudev MINE THINE wealth health Give them to the lotus feet of love Give them to the lotus feet of the lord Give yourself to Satguru Sacrifice your all to Satguru Be united with the blissful truth Jai dev ; Jai Satgurudev Bible, Gita, the Koran Sing the glory of your Name They all sing the glory of your Name Angels sing your glory Heavenly hosts sing your praises They find no end to your fame Jai dev ; Jai Satgurudev DESIRES have robbed me and left me In the darkness of the night Trapped me in the darkness of the night Guru gives holy name and light Guru gives holy name and sight Cross the ocean by his love and light Jai dev ; Jai Satgurudev Many past forms you have taken Now we have come in your control Again you have come to save the soul In this time of darkness To lead your devotees from darkness You have come as Hansa, the Pure Soul Jai dev ; Jai Satgurudev SO COME to the shelter of Guru's grace Come with your heart and your soul Bring him your heart and your soul Cross the worldly ocean Cross it by your devotion And attain the Supreme Goal Jai dev ; Jai Satgurudev JAI GURUDEV Maharaji Your glory fills the world Protector of the weary and the weak You bring the death of attachment You bring the mind true detachment Please save us from the ocean deep Jai dev ; Jai Satgurudev You are my mother, and You are my father You are my brother, and You are my friend You are riches You are wisdom You are my all, my Lord to me. You are my all, You are my all, You are my all, my Lord to me. Guru Maharaji My life is within you From you I was born and to you now I go. Forever I'm yours, my longing is endless This heart of mine aches to be one with you Forever I'm yours, my longing is endless This heart of mine aches to be one with you Wherever I look Your face is before me Your golden love melts all my troubles away I give you my heart, for in you it will mellow Maharaji my lord, my life is your play I give you my heart, for in you it will mellow Maharaji my lord, my life is your play O wondrous lord my Guru Maharaji Your grace is a river That flows on and on You fill my heart With your love overflowing Please let me come home Find my rest at your feet You fill my heart With your love overflowing Please let me come home Find my rest at your feet Our Lord is the maker of all things created He keeps them and brings them all home to his word. Our Lord is the superior power in person I bow down before such a wonderful Lord.
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Date: Sat, Jan 10, 1998 at 13:35:22 (EST)
Poster: And On Anand Ji
Email: aoa
To: --------
Subject: Re: To leave what ? or where?
Message:
When I returned, in 1990, the few drugs I had: darshan, and guru puja -- were rendered obsolete, undesireable, and unavailable. That always bothered me greatly; I liked those things much -- they were my assets in a hostile premie world. Think about what they are, though: darshan, and guru puja. That's heavy. And that's what I was in it for. They gave context to meditation, as in these words: Meditation begins in the form of the Master Adoration begins at the feet of the Lord Concentration begins in the words of the Master Libertion begins in the grace of the Lord. Are those words the beginning sequence of Arti? [---snip!---] . . . You're right. At least until the early 80s, the practice of knowledge was quite secondary in the GMJ world, adoration . . . [---snip!---] . . . And, in my experience, at least during that period, the majority of premies just lived for the next darshan, the next program where they could get a group high. And then, in between, premies were largely miserable, despite supposedly having been given the secret of life. That's a pretty good summary, come to think of it. That you were able to leave in 1979 was quite amazing, given that 1979 was in the middle of the most 'heavy' 'dark' period of Maharaji's cult. At that time he was literally demanding total surrender and also demanding that hundreds of premies serve him full time . . . See I ate that up -- I wanted that. Problem was, I'd received knowledge in January, 1978, and by perhaps August was lamentably not following a regimen (I was an aspirant from July 1976--January 1978; because of my age I was too young to receive knowledge. I lived among premies as an emancipated youth). I was asked to leave two different premie dwellings (the ashram and a shared premie apartment). So, when everyone went off to some program or other, I moved out and gave no forwarding address. I was guarded in my demeanor toward premies afterward. I had a sexual affair with a young woman (who was my own age) and that gave me some grounding about trying to integrate with main society--I needed to appear normal to her, which I was able to do with some success. I quickly realized to not talk too much about Maharaji or knowledge, and not to press; it wouldn't help me keep my girlfriend or to make friends with people, generally -- and I needed friends. that premies raise millions of dollars to build that ridiculous plane that he was just so into. It was certainly a 'fire and brimstone' period during which Maharaj, especially to the ashram premies and the initiators, spoke literally of the draconian disasters that would befall you if you left him. So, that you had the courage to leave at that time is quite amazing. There was the shark satsang -- you may have heard it; it's the one where Maharaji talks about when the shark eats you, it initially takes one bite, and maybe there's still something left worth saving. But if it goes on too long, the shark takes a big bite out of the center of you, and there's nothing left worth saving. I don't remember but I think I got the bastardized version of the shark satsang (e.g. third-hand). But I certainly didn't make it up in my head one fine evening -- someone told it to me. And so I took it upon myself to declare myself eaten by the shark -- nothing left worth saving. I guess the term would be condemned: I was condemned. That's pretty much the emotional impact of what my parents were telling me prior to 1976, so I was preconditioned to accept being condemned as a manageable (but lowly) state of being. As a condemned person, I went about 10 years, just very occasionally dabbling with the techniques of knowledge. In the interim I joined up the Air Force (U.S. Military); read Carlos Casteneda, and always making myself the one who fell short on a great opportunity offered by TPM. I'd say to myself (rehearsing what I'd say to someone who I made up in my mind as a typical prospect who liked my talk about knowledge and Maharaji): "Well, it's great, but I couldn't seem to do it justice; but that doesn't mean you would fail where I did -- I was afully weak and lazy." Then like I say in 1989 or 1990 or so, I happened upon some premies I knew from years back, and managed to get invited back to a gathering of some sort. Gone were the devotional aspects; darshan, puja, holi, arti. You weren't supposed to use a baragan any more. There was even a confusion about if any of the hindi words should be used, even when talking amongst each other: premie, darshan, sat chit anand, agya, puja, lila, pranam, sat nam, maya, kali yuga, prachar, prasad, charnamrit, satguru, mahatma; the honorifics bai and ji. Spread This Knowledge. The Creator of All. The Downpour of the Holy Name. Lila. If you want to go to Heaven. The Lord of the Universe. At the feet of the Master. Weeping In My Joy. Dance, Dance, Dance (Initiator Rich somebody's song). "Wont you dance, dance, dance Our hearts long to see you dance seems we've waited for ages turned countless pages It can't go much longer the music's getting stronger Won't you dance dance dance Maharaji gather us up in your dance. There was even a line in there about "our hearts are your dance floor". Then there was that Brian MacDermott, who was weeping on stage in the Poconos, and we all thought (were told) that Brian's losing it (I forget how "losing it" was positively framed) -- by his losing it, he called Maharaji to the Poconos, AND MAHARAJI COULD NOT REFUSE SUCH A DEVOTIONAL LOVE -- HE HAD TO COME. I certainly didn't. Also, by that time, darshan really stopped being any kind of a positive experience for me. It was more life going to mass or doing a ritual that I thought was good for me. Also, it was sort of guilt-producing because I thought Maharaji looked greasy up close, and not radiant, golden or 'perfect' at all, which I had been indoctrinated that he was.. But then, he's started to give darshan again, is dancing at programs and premies are singing all those old devotional 'you are god' songs to him. So, what does that mean? Is that kind of period beginning again? Gee, I guess I just missed it. Coulda easily been sucked back in -- except I wasn't really feeling the old-time devotional love for His Form the way I once did. Greasy! That's his "chocolate-smooth brow" you're talking about. It meant he'd been doing so much light technique the divine frontal lobe there just kinda expanded the forehead to stretch out all the wrinkles -- you'd look in the mirror at your own forehead, and if yours was smoother than it usually is, you were exceptionally -- blissed, or centered or something along those lines -- and light technique was especially key to that. There was another one, attributed to Durga Ji: "Maharaji would just fill with love so much, he had to carry different sized suits as he expanded with love" and that wasn't supposed to connote anything to do with mundane weight gain; as though he were some kind of a baloon deity with devotional barometric pressure activation.
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Date: Sat, Jan 10, 1998 at 14:30:40 (EST)
Poster: mc dermott the great
Email: b
To: And On Anand Ji
Subject: pretender (Re: To leave what ? or where?)
Message:
ballon diety, what a hoot, you are right of couse, I remember that comment she made. By the way Brian mc dermott KNEW that maharji was coming to the event and that he was in new york at about the time brian spoke! Brian sure made it seem like he didn't know didn't he. What a performance! I have the complete transcript. The bastard. got to go.
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Date: Sat, Jan 10, 1998 at 22:51:37 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: And On Anand Ji
Subject: Re: To leave what ? or where?
Message:
See I ate that up -- I wanted that. Problem was, I'd received knowledge in January, 1978, and by perhaps August was lamentably not following a regimen (I was an aspirant from July 1976--January 1978; because of my age I was too young to receive knowledge. I lived among premies as an emancipated youth). I was asked to leave two different premie dwellings (the ashram and a shared premie apartment). So, when everyone went off to some program or other, I moved out and gave no forwarding address. I was guarded in my demeanor toward premies afterward. I had a sexual affair with a young woman (who was my own age) and that gave me some grounding about trying to integrate with main society--I needed to appear normal to her, which I was able to do with some success. I quickly realized to not talk too much about Maharaji or knowledge, and not to press; it wouldn't help me keep my girlfriend or to make friends with people, generally -- and I needed friends. There was the shark satsang -- you may have heard it; it's the one where Maharaji talks about when the shark eats you, it initially takes one bite, and maybe there's still something left worth saving. But if it goes on too long, the shark takes a big bite out of the center of you, and there's nothing left worth saving. And so I took it upon myself to declare myself eaten by the shark -- nothing left worth saving. I guess the term would be condemned: I was condemned. That's pretty much the emotional impact of what my parents were telling me prior to 1976, so I was preconditioned to accept being condemned as a manageable (but lowly) state of being. As a condemned person, I went about 10 years, just very occasionally dabbling with the techniques of knowledge. In the interim I joined up the Air Force (U.S. Military); read Carlos Casteneda, and always making myself the one who fell short on a great opportunity offered by TPM. I'd say to myself (rehearsing what I'd say to someone who I made up in my mind as a typical prospect who liked my talk about knowledge and Maharaji): 'Well, it's great, but I couldn't seem to do it justice; but that doesn't mean you would fail where I did -- I was afully weak and lazy.' Then like I say in 1989 or 1990 or so, I happened upon some premies I knew from years back, and managed to get invited back to a gathering of some sort. Gone were the devotional aspects; darshan, puja, holi, arti. You weren't supposed to use a baragan any more. There was even a confusion about if any of the hindi words should be used, even when talking amongst each other: premie, darshan, sat chit anand, agya, puja, lila, pranam, sat nam, maya, kali yuga, prachar, prasad, charnamrit, satguru, mahatma; the honorifics bai and ji. Spread This Knowledge. The Creator of All. The Downpour of the Holy Name. Lila. If you want to go to Heaven. The Lord of the Universe. At the feet of the Master. Weeping In My Joy. Dance, Dance, Dance (Initiator Rich somebody's song). 'Wont you dance, dance, dance Our hearts long to see you dance seems we've waited for ages turned countless pages It can't go much longer the music's getting stronger Won't you dance dance dance Maharaji gather us up in your dance. There was even a line in there about 'our hearts are your dance floor'. Then there was that Brian MacDermott, who was weeping on stage in the Poconos, and we all thought (were told) that Brian's losing it (I forget how 'losing it' was positively framed) -- by his losing it, he called Maharaji to the Poconos, AND MAHARAJI COULD NOT REFUSE SUCH A DEVOTIONAL LOVE -- HE HAD TO COME. There was another one, attributed to Durga Ji: 'Maharaji would just fill with love so much, he had to carry different sized suits as he expanded with love' and that wasn't supposed to connote anything to do with mundane weight gain; as though he were some kind of a baloon deity with devotional barometric pressure activation. Amazing story. You really an aspirant for and entire year and a half? Frankly, I recall aspirants waiting that long in Chicago, where I was living at the time, knowledge just wasn't being given. But it must have been very hard, and demoralizing to go 10 years thinking that it was your fault that you weren't having the experience you were supposed to be having and that it was because you were "weak and lazy." That kind of self blame was so much a part of what Maharaji was about. Everything good was due to him and everything bad had to be due to the premie. It makes me angry to think you had to go through that. It's very unfair. You have an incredible memory for those songs. Yes, I remember that dance, dance, dance, song sung by that initiator I can picture in my head, but I can't recall his name. I know he was from Philadelphia and looked like a total alien. The song was so haunting because it was in a minor key. Brian McDermott was just plain nuts, but I thought he could be funny. By the way, do you recall the satsang M gave at the Poconos? The first 20 minutes is him absolutely bitching at how much more difficult it was to get there than he was told. I recall he was really pissed that the ride from the airport was only supposed to be half an hour, but it was really 45 minutes. MY what that poor man had to put up with! Even though he was sitting there bitching, the premies just goo-gooed through the whole thing. Thanks so much for this post and sharing your history. It's very interesting and you've got a great memory.
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Date: Sun, Jan 11, 1998 at 01:29:56 (EST)
Poster: And On Anand Ji
Email: aoa
To: --------
Subject: Re: To leave what ? or where?
Message:
Thanks so much for this post and sharing your history. It's very interesting and you've got a great memory.You're welcome.
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Date: Fri, Jan 9, 1998 at 15:37:21 (EST)
Poster: Nigel
Email:
To: Everyone
Subject: Signing off...
Message:
I shall be off-line and troubling you all no more for the foreseeable future. Just like to say thanks for the company, feedback and chat. All the best Nigel
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Date: Fri, Jan 9, 1998 at 15:45:32 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Nigel
Subject: Re: Signing off...
Message:
I shall be off-line and troubling you all no more for the foreseeable future. Just like to say thanks for the company, feedback and chat. All the best Nigel Nigel, I've really liked having you on the forum, and have found your postings to be both interesting and valuable. I do hope to see you back again (in the non-forseeable future, perhaps), but until then... Regards from Katie
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Date: Fri, Jan 9, 1998 at 16:24:41 (EST)
Poster: Seymour
Email: seymour@rocketmail.com
To: Nigel
Subject: Re: Signing off...
Message:
Katie's message goes for me too. I hope you can find time to join the discussion in the future. Good luck, Seymour.
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Date: Sat, Jan 10, 1998 at 17:33:59 (EST)
Poster: Nigel
Email:
To: Katie, Seymour etc....
Subject: Re: Signing off...
Message:
Katie's message goes for me too. I hope you can find time to join the discussion in the future. Good luck, Seymour. Thanks, both of you. I'll still look in when I get the chance, so if you still want to reply to that last thread, Seymour, I'll find it. I'll be back before the year is out. Cheers, Nigel
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Date: Sun, Jan 11, 1998 at 13:24:13 (EST)
Poster: seymour
Email: seymour_t@rocketmail.com
To: Nigel
Subject: Re: Signing off...
Message:
Nigel, could you send me your e-mail address. I think I had it but have lost it in cyberspace. If you don't mind it would be nice to exchange the odd philosophical idea. All the best, Seymour
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Date: Sun, Jan 11, 1998 at 17:14:22 (EST)
Poster: Nigel
Email:
To: seymour
Subject: Re: Signing off...
Message:
Nigel, could you send me your e-mail address. I think I had it but have lost it in cyberspace. If you don't mind it would be nice to exchange the odd philosophical idea. All the best, Seymour Hello Seymour. Thanks very much for rave review! (your new thread). Unfortunately I will be without email for a while - not too long I hope. I've noted your e-address so I will make contact when I can. I've not checked out your 'journey' yet. I will do so now. Cheers, Nigel
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Date: Fri, Jan 9, 1998 at 08:39:13 (EST)
Poster: And On Anand Ji
Email: aoa
To: ------------
Subject: Book Cites
Message:
-----------------------COMBINED CATALOGS---------- AUTHOR: Collier, Sophia, 1956- TITLE: Soul rush: The odyssey of a young woman of the '70s by Sophia Collier. 1st ed. New York : Morrow, 1978. 240 p. ; 22 cm. OTHER ENTRIES: Collier, Sophia, 1956- Guru Maharaj Ji, 1957- Divine Light Mission Biography. Divine Light Mission. Format: biography ------------------------COMBINED CATALOGS---------- AUTHOR: Downton, James V. TITLE: Sacred journeys : the conversion of young Americans to Divine Light Mission by James V. Downton, Jr. New York : Columbia University Press, 1979. ix, 245 p., [4] leaves of plates : ill. ; 24 cm. Includes index. Bibliography: p. 237-241. OTHER ENTRIES: Guru Maharaj Ji, 1957- Divine Light Mission. Conversion Case studies. Cults Case studies. Format: bibliographies
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Date: Fri, Jan 9, 1998 at 09:00:13 (EST)
Poster: And On Anand Ji
Email: aoa
To: --------------
Subject: Re: Book Cites - Steel Plate Pie Detroit (Voices From The Underground) (Re: Book Cites)
Message:
Title: Voices from the Underground: V1-Insider Histories of the Vietnam Era Underground Press Editor: Ken Wachsberger Publisher: Mica Press Published Date: January 29, 1993 Cost: $29.50 No. Of Pages:640 Misc.Publisher's Notes, Introductions by Editor, William Kunstler, and Abe Peck, 8.5"X 11", Alkaline Paper, Smyth Sewn ISBN 187946101-3 Design Cover: Meri Lea, San Francisco Looking for Utopia Page 37 by Patrick Halley In August of 1973, Guru Maharaj Ji, the 15-year old "perfect master, arrived in Detroit to inaugurate his "Divine Light Mission"--a religious cult started in India--and to receive the key to the city. The local press hailed him as a messenger of peace and brotherhood. His disciples hailed him as the new "God." Only Detroit's Fifth Estate concluded that he was a hustler and a fraud. In this appendix to Bob Hippler's history of the Fifth Estate, Patrick Halley tells, for the first time, how he infiltrated the "Divine Light Mission" and pied the perfect master from 15 feet, and about the steel plate he wears in his head as a reminder.
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Date: Fri, Jan 9, 1998 at 15:11:50 (EST)
Poster: Posts should be renamed
Email: b
To: And On Anand Ji
Subject: pies (Re: Book Cites)
Message:
Nice work, your linuxness.
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Date: Fri, Jan 9, 1998 at 22:57:07 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: And On Anand Ji
Subject: Re: Book Cites
Message:
Thank you, whoever posted this. Do you know Sophia Collier went on to found Soho Sodas, which I think she sold, and now is the head of Working Assets Investments, a socially progressive investment company?
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Date: Fri, Jan 9, 1998 at 00:03:01 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: Everyone
Subject: Why Do Premies Leave
Message:
Someone on another thread asked about the periods of "mass defections" by premies from following Guru Maharaj Ji. I recall there was a large exodus in 1976. Another large exodus occurred in the early 80s, when I left, probably around 1982-1984. I think the main reasons premies left was simply because they became disenchanted with Mahraji's ability deliver on his promises, often coupled with disillusionment with the hypocracy, fraudulent practices and ridiculous materialism of Maharaji and the leadership of the organization. But I think these reasons in and of themselves are not usually enough to get past the "don't doubt" dogma of Mahraji's cult. The premies also needed to feel safe enough to talk about their doubts with others, either inside or outside the cult. And in 1976, and again in the early 80s, things "opened up" or "liberalized" enough for that to happen for a lot of people. In 1976, we were encouraged to see Maharaji, at least briefly, as something other than god. In fact, the term "humanitarian leader" was used. At the programs in the Summer of 1976, Maharaji did not give darshan, rather we just kind of filed by him and nodded our heads. No Krishna crowns, no pranams. Also, in the ashrams we were encouraged to look at what we were doing and why. I recall lots of group discussion sessions and even things like role playing. As a result, masses of premies moved out of the ashrams and many left Maharaji entirely. A large percentage of those never returned. I know a number of people who left then and never returned. Another whole group of people left but came back when Maharaji went in the opposite direction and began the "super-devotional" period of about 1977-1982. Beginning in late 1982, I think a similar thing happened, probably as a result of Maharaji's (unstated) desire to close the ashrams. I recall a few months before I moved out, we were instructed to begin handling, at least to some extent, our own finances again. Despite being in a Region where David Smith was in charge, and despite the fact that he had terrorized the ashram premies just a year previously about the need to rigidly follow the ashram rules, the heaviness was lifted in that regard. Consequently, I, for one, felt emboldened to actually express my doubts to both premies and non-premies. It became clear that I was so disillusioned that I had to leave. I had felt disillusioned before that, but since I had never expressed it enough to get feedback and encouragement, I just repressed it like all the previous "doubts." In my experience, surprisingly, during the darkest, heaviest, times in Maharaji's cult, very few people left. While when things lightened up somewhat, droves of people left. I think that was because in the heavy period, the mind-control mechanisms of the cult were the strongest, and in the lighter periods, some premies got more in touch with their feelings, after having repressed them for years. Can anyone relate to this?
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Date: Fri, Jan 9, 1998 at 13:56:00 (EST)
Poster: Sir David
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: JW
Subject: Re: Why Do Premies Leave
Message:
Very true what you say about mind control. Also true is Sir Isaac Newton's law which says to every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. I think one can only subjugate people for a limited period and then WHOOSH they react against it. In the early eighties all the shrams closed and satsang stopped. No more mind control and people left in droves never to be seen again. A few have stayed. They are unusual people or never really got into the cult in the first place. I've heard said that the people around Maharaji are a little odd. I think that anyone who lives a life of servility to him, denying there own life would become a little odd. Or maybe it requires that kind of person to be around Maharaji. And talking of David Smith, what a nasty piece of work he is. I had a few encounters with him during the early eighties and he struck me as being a very rude and obnoxious man. No manners or normal social etiquette at all. Perhaps he will be the next perfect master.
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Date: Fri, Jan 9, 1998 at 14:24:10 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: Sir David
Subject: Re: Why Do Premies Leave
Message:
Very true what you say about mind control. Also true is Sir Isaac Newton's law which says to every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. I think one can only subjugate people for a limited period and then WHOOSH they react against it. In the early eighties all the shrams closed and satsang stopped. No more mind control and people left in droves never to be seen again. A few have stayed. They are unusual people or never really got into the cult in the first place. I've heard said that the people around Maharaji are a little odd. I think that anyone who lives a life of servility to him, denying there own life would become a little odd. Or maybe it requires that kind of person to be around Maharaji. And talking of David Smith, what a nasty piece of work he is. I had a few encounters with him during the early eighties and he struck me as being a very rude and obnoxious man. No manners or normal social etiquette at all. Perhaps he will be the next perfect master. Please don't get me started on David Smith. I've already posted some of the horror stories about this very sick individual. I don't believe I ever met anyone who had less concern for other human beings. The fact that he is still apparently under Maharaji's subjugation is not really surprising. BTW -- did the ashrams closing and satsang ending really occur at roughly the same time? What kind of reaction did premies have to the ending of satsang? Is that when the "lord of the videos" fundraising program began?
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Date: Fri, Jan 9, 1998 at 22:07:59 (EST)
Poster: Sir David
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: JW
Subject: Re: Why Do Premies Leave
Message:
In Britain the ashrams closed at the same time as satsang ended, in about 1983. After that I never had anything to do with Maharaji again except for just once in 1986 when I went to see him. Therefore, I'm not sure when the video programmes started.
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Date: Sat, Jan 10, 1998 at 02:27:43 (EST)
Poster: Chuck Cliff
Email: 113464,2251
To: JW
Subject: Re: Why Do Premies Leave
Message:
The human body The potential with which it is imbued That it should be so That is the true guru
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Date: Thurs, Jan 8, 1998 at 23:41:17 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: Everyone
Subject: The Cult and Afterwards
Message:
I know there are some differing views about the word "cult" and what it means. I know Katie doesn't use the word, and I acknowledge it has become a bit loaded. But I still use it as I think it describes something for which I have no other label. It describes both what a cult is, and why leaving it and healing from the experience can be so traumatic and difficult. It explains why ex-premies, even 15 years later, can still feel anger at the betrayal they experienced. In my opinion, the subjective essence of the cult experience is psychological abuse, and betrayal in particular. Cults like DLM/EV ostensibly offer to fulfill commonly experienced human needs for understanding, certainty, and self-esteem. To me, the three basic elements (the absolutist triad) of a cult are: 1) black-and-white answers to life's problems, 2) a prohibition against entertaining doubts about those answers, and 3) a promise of being superior to everyone outside the group. These three elements were most definitely the basis of my involvement with Guru Maharaj Ji. I think people like me might be vulnerable to getting involved in such a cult because of stress caused by all kinds of factors that might be happening in our lives when we are first "propogated to." When someone actually joins the cult, he or she expects, as I did, benevolence, respect, love, help. But what one receives is very different. The reason is that the triad above is an illusion. It moves people away from reality and genuine human connections. It is the opposite of what one could call the the true human condition, the adaptive triad, which consists of: 1) tolerance of ambiguity (no black-and-white answers); 2) a questioning mind possessed of a healthy measure of doubt (discernment); 3) a humble yet critical openness to the meaning systems of other people. To the extent Maharaji's cult delivered the absolutist triad (and it tried very hard to do that), it came into conflict with the inexorable demands of the human condition. And the second reason cults like Maharaji's don't deliver the benevolent results they promise is the tendency to manipulate and exploit the members. Maharaji's cult tried to maintain people in systems like the ashrams, initiators, instructors, communities, service, that exploited the very needs his cult had promised to fulfill. In retrospect, it was remarkably successful in causing otherwise intelligent people to spend years in systems like the ashram that were harmful and sometimes abusive. So, when premies finally do leave, and the vast majority of them have, they often feel distress, the core of which is a sense of having been abused by someone thought to be benevolent, that is, of having been betrayed. In fact, I think when a lot of premies leave, they often feel "spiritually raped," violated at the core of their beings. I know I have felt this. As with physical rape, the violation is traumatic and severely damages the capacity to trust --oneself, others, and God. Understandably, the ex-premie can feel empty, depressed, guilty and painfully unsure of what or who is real and trustworthy and even how to discover what or who is real and trustworthy. I know I felt that way after I left, at least some of the time. But, I think you can begin again, but it's hard when you have nothing to hang onto. The fact that so many ex-premies have made it, as represented by the people who post here, I think is a testament to their courage and enduring capacity to love, if I do say so myself. And, I think the ability to talk about all of this with other people who understand what you are feeling is very valuable in the healing process. So, that's why I contiunue to use the word "cult" when referring to Mahraji's cult because I think it's a very true description, despite the fact that we might not like to say that we actually WERE in a CULT.
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Date: Fri, Jan 9, 1998 at 08:32:54 (EST)
Poster: Sir David
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: JW
Subject: Re: The Cult and Afterwards
Message:
Very perceptive Joe. I'd too busy to write much now but you summed it up nicely exactly how it has been. I too have used the term "raped". Talking of cults, I once visited a Moonie house here in London. I was surprised by the similarities between their setup and Maharaji's cult. In the house once I got talking to people they were saying things like it was very hard to follow this Moony path. I caught a few of them off guard you see. Then a super Moonie turned up in a nice car and everybody sat down and listened to his inspiring lecture about Moonyism. It was so much like DLM
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Date: Fri, Jan 9, 1998 at 12:53:25 (EST)
Poster: Joy
Email: Bluebirdd@aol.com
To: JW
Subject: Re: The Cult and Afterwards
Message:
I liked this post about Cults. It always seems a bit extreme when you use the word "cult" so frequently, but now that I know why, it seems appropriate. I also liked Sir David's response, it made me chuckle. How true, how true. One of the things that "snapped" me the most and best was when we went to that "ex-cult-members" meeting around 1982 and I listened to some Moonies describing things very similar to what we'd been thru. You realize it's all the same trap, just different trappings. I'm STILL having difficulty, though, jiving the extremism of the ex-premie site with someone like my friend (I'll call him "Bob" for anonymity), who lives a "normal" life (so to speak) and just wants to have a "spiritual experience" and uses Maharaji to do it. How is it any different from having, say, TM as your practice, since involvement with GMJ is minimal and they don't give money and apart from flying to a program once a year and belonging to the old club of friends who've been doin it for 25 years, it doesn't really impinge on their life much. "Bob" claims that a lot of the 70s fanatacism has mellowed out into people pretty much living their lives and using Knowledge in the manner it was intended. Do you think this could be true? I am trying my hardest to use my own open-mindedness here, to accept that although GMJ operated as a cult in the 70s and 80s, and my experience was definitely that it was so, that people MAY be able to now experience K in a much more mellow and less demoralizing way. Do you think it's possible? Or are they just suckered into a watered-down version of the same cult? I'm just somewhat uncomfortable with telling my friend that his spiritual practice is off the wall, especially when he seems very happy and fulfilled with it, and he should listen to what I have to say instead. Makes me feel like I'm the one proselytizing. Joe, I was going to send you this as an e-mail, but I have decided to instead -- ta da! -- go public!
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Date: Fri, Jan 9, 1998 at 14:21:36 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: JW
Subject: Re: The Cult and Afterwards
Message:
Dear Joe - I want you to know that I really liked your post, and I am still thinking about some of the things that you said. However, I did want to address the use of the word "cult", since you brought up my name in connection with it. I don't like to use the word "cult" to active premies because of its negative connotations. Ditto with "brainwashed". I think these words just make people angry and preclude any reasonable discussion. But I don't have problems with people using those words to describe their experiences with Maharaji's organization. You gave three elements that you thought constituted the definition of a cult (and which I very much agree with, by the way). There have always been premies who didn't follow or subscribe to one or more of these three elements, but still considered themselves to be "premies". (I am thinking about CD, who can go to a program, and then go party at a blues bar with his non-premie girlfriend afterwards. I am sorry if I'm misrepresenting your experience here, CD! I'm not criticizing it.). Anyway, I wasn't one of them (and never could have been) and I'm sure you weren't either. But there is a possibility that these peoples' experiences are valid, and that they, in fact, DON'T belong to a cult, whereas we did. What do you think about this possibility? I believe Joy also talks about something like this in her post, too. Actually, I am beginning to find that the word "cult" has been so overused that I get some silly connotations from itnow. It makes me think of one of those stupid 1970's made-for-TV movies where the protagonists encounter a "hippie commune", or a "religious cult", and it's all totally laughable (e.g. people with long white robes who act really bizzarely, etc.). I don't mean this to make fun of or diminish anyone's experience, BTW. But until someone comes up with a better word than "cult", that's what we're stuck with. P.S. to Joy - Welcome to the forum. I am very glad to hear from you (it's about time, girl!).
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Date: Fri, Jan 9, 1998 at 14:46:29 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: Joy
Subject: Re: The Cult and Afterwards
Message:
Hi Joy. Yes, I recall going to those ex-members meetings in Berkeley. I remember being sort of confronted that the ex-moonies had experiences almost identical to the ex-premies. It was confronting because I always believed that as premies we were so superior to the moonies and that THEY were in a cult but we weren't. You raise an excellent point, and one that I wanted to talk about as well. I firmly believe when I was a premie, I was part of a full-blown, devotional cult. But the question remains, is it a cult now? And like you say, is it now possible to just be a "premie," whatever that is, to tacitly "believe" in Maharaji (whatever that means), practice meditation occasionally, and end it there? I can imagine that's possible, but I'm concerned when I see Maharaji giving darshan again, seeing the devotional songs sung to him at programs, seeing the lavish lifestyle he lives, and seeing the reaction of premies to him at programs. At least for a lot of his followers there is a lot more going on there than that although perhaps the whole trip is presented in a more watered-down fashion. But I think, like Katie said, there may be, an may have always been, premies who stayed on the edges, never really took most of what Maharaji and PAM said seriously, and just went their own way, taking what they liked about the whole trip and disregarding the rest. Maybe that's what CD has done, and I used to think Mili was that way too. I was not. For me, once I had faith in M as the perfect master, I wanted to follow him with 100% of my time and energy. And I dove in head first, only coming up for air 10 years later. But this raises another question. Joy, if your friend admits that it "used to be a cult" but that it isn't anymore, in the sense that M has reformed himself, how could he follow M if M has never acknowledged or taken any responsibility for what happened when he WAS heading a cult? I mean, wouldn't that tend to tarnish his reputation as a reputable spiritual leader that you would put your faith in, even if your involvement is very limited? And isn't it possible that premies from 25 years ago who stay involved now are just engaging in a sort of nostalgia for the cult-like, hippie youth and really nothing more, except maybe a social club of people they know from the past? And I guess I am suspicious, understandably in my opinion because of my personal experience with Maharaji, that he really isn't still heading a true cult, only toning it down a bit because he has to in order to keep any followers or to do propogation. And I do acknowledge that the amount of hurt one can suffer now is likely a lot less, without ashrams, initiators, less emphasis on "service" and "total dedication and surrender" like there used to be, but from what I can tell those elements are still there under the surface but just not emphasized as much. AND based on my definition of a cult I STILL think Maharaji gives a simplistic "black-and-white" supposed answer to people and that premies still get to feel superior to other people in the world who haven't had the "experience." And, I assume that the expression of doubt about M still isn't tolerated around premies, but I note that M has dropped the "don't doubt" commandment. So, is it still a cult? I would have to say it is. And keep in mind that things are not static, and in my opinion, Maharaji has a hard time resisting his psychological need to be worshipped. So, stay tuned.
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Date: Fri, Jan 9, 1998 at 14:59:03 (EST)
Poster: sure
Email: b
To: Joy
Subject: it matters (Re: The Cult and Afterwards)
Message:
While I don't care about the small band of devotees that he has, or at least enough to go march off to change them, the idea that it doesn't 'impinge ' on thier life is wrong I bet. At the programs now the song 'lord of the universe' is being played. And at the 'feet of the master'. Instrumental versions for the old timers. If you, joy, don't believe in god then fine, what's the difference. If you think there is one smart force that has standards and can play a part in a persons life, then maharaji is a big problem because he is pretending to BE that one smart force. He is the mouthpiece of god. These are no small claims. maharaji doesn't know anything about your friends life at all and yet your friend thinks he does. Check and see. If you are only alive for a short while, is it a good thing to have a misperception of the reality just because of any reason? Have you ever heard that it is ok to lead people on into a fantasy? For thier whole lives? Have you heard of narcissim? Maharaji has that big time. The way things work, if you pretend to be god you go mad. His brand of madness has two sides at least. First, what do YOU think is the clear way to view things? Do you think it is a good thing that history views him as the lord when he is not and his behavior and many of his words and deeds will give a really awful precedent for future children to follow. Also, the athiestic 'anybody can play god' indian way is not worthy of getting a larger group of people stuck in it's trap of misperception. All the groups call for acceptance, if you are going to stand for honesty in your life you have to stand for honesty and call it like it is and state it. If you see a new religion starting and someone is the lord when they are not, it is your responsibility to stand and be counted among those who say this is not true.
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Date: Fri, Jan 9, 1998 at 15:09:22 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: Joy
Subject: Re: The Cult and Afterwards
Message:
Joy, like Katie, I wanted to welcome you to posting here. I also wanted to let everyone know that Joy is a good friend of mine and she and I left the ashram, and left being premies at the same time, after both being involved for a good 10 years. If it hadn't been for the support I got from Joy and the fact that I could talk to her like a person rather than as a programmed premie, it would have made the transition a lot harder. She was a real support for me and I'll always be appreciative of her for that. Plus, Joy makes some of the best Indian food this side of the Asian subcontinent. And Katie, Joy really likes the Grateful Dead, but she used to take me to Dead concerts, and I just couldn't relate.
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Date: Fri, Jan 9, 1998 at 17:26:32 (EST)
Poster: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net
To: JW
Subject: Re: The Cult and Afterwards
Message:
I agree with your definition of the word 'cult' and I understand people's reluctance to use the word. I myself refused to call DLM a cult for about fifteen years after I left, mostly because I was ashamed that I had been part of a cult. Once I left I understood it to be a cult, but it was just too embarassing to admit that I could be taken in by such a group. Just as I refused to blame M for anything when I first left (I blamed DLM and the premies and myself), I didn't want to admit that I had been a cult member. I have noticed that most people tend to think of Heaven's Gate and people dressed in strange clothes as cultish, but any group with a leader who makes their decisions and who interprets God's will for them are pretty much a cult. You find this is some of the Millenialist Xian groups and you find it in "meditation groups" (my term for DLM before I became honest about it). I think it is important that this site serve as a voice of reason for those who are beginning to question their allegience to such groups, and I think that we should still use the word cult in order to be honest about it. Regards, Michael P.S. Welcome to the site, Joy!
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Date: Fri, Jan 9, 1998 at 21:27:21 (EST)
Poster: Gregg
Email: gpainter@dnver.uswest.net
To: Katie
Subject: Re: The Cult and Afterwards
Message:
I posted a message a few days ago about the INCESTUOUSNESS of the messages I read here (I heard mostly about Mili, for two weeks). I rescind my complaint. This is an intereseting thread. This is an issue we all deal with. I hope next time I have more time to converse with y'all: I have a daughter who needs a lot of attention...let me just say that, perhaps because I spent little time in an ashram, and a lot of time in tiny premie communities, I do not feel abused. I guess if a dozen or two people meditate together, it's one thing; if one is part of a vast and hierachial (sp) organization, it's another.
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Date: Sat, Jan 10, 1998 at 05:59:44 (EST)
Poster: And On Anand Ji
Email: aoa
To: ------------
Subject: Re: The Cult and Afterwards
Message:
Hi Joy. Yes, I recall going to those ex-members meetings in Berkeley. I remember being sort of confronted that the ex-moonies had experiences almost identical to the ex-premies. It was confronting because I always believed that as premies we were so superior to the moonies and that THEY were in a cult but we weren't. You raise an excellent point, and one that I wanted to talk about as well. I firmly believe when I was a premie, I was part of a full-blown, devotional cult. But the question remains, is it a cult now? And like you say, is it now possible to just be a 'premie,' whatever that is, to tacitly 'believe' in Maharaji (whatever that means), practice meditation occasionally, and end it there? I can imagine that's possible, but I'm concerned when I see Maharaji giving darshan again, seeing the devotional songs sung to him at programs, seeing the lavish lifestyle he lives, and seeing the reaction of premies to him at programs. At least for a lot of his followers there is a lot more going on there than that although perhaps the whole trip is presented in a more watered-down fashion. But I think, like Katie said, there may be, an may have always been, premies who stayed on the edges, never really took most of what Maharaji and PAM said seriously, and just went their own way, taking what they liked about the whole trip and disregarding the rest. Maybe that's what CD has done, and I used to think Mili was that way too. I was not. For me, once I had faith in M as the perfect master, I wanted to follow him with 100% of my time and energy. And I dove in head first, only coming up for air 10 years later. But this raises another question. Joy, if your friend admits that it 'used to be a cult' but that it isn't anymore, in the sense that M has reformed himself, how could he follow M if M has never acknowledged or taken any responsibility for what happened when he WAS heading a cult? I mean, wouldn't that tend to tarnish his reputation as a reputable spiritual leader that you would put your faith in, even if your involvement is very limited? And isn't it possible that premies from 25 years ago who stay involved now are just engaging in a sort of nostalgia for the cult-like, hippie youth and really nothing more, except maybe a social club of people they know from the past? And I guess I am suspicious, understandably in my opinion because of my personal experience with Maharaji, that he really isn't still heading a true cult, only toning it down a bit because he has to in order to keep any followers or to do propogation. And I do acknowledge that the amount of hurt one can suffer now is likely a lot less, without ashrams, initiators, less emphasis on 'service' and 'total dedication and surrender' like there used to be, but from what I can tell those elements are still there under the surface but just not emphasized as much. AND based on my definition of a cult I STILL think Maharaji gives a simplistic 'black-and-white' supposed answer to people and that premies still get to feel superior to other people in the world who haven't had the 'experience.' And, I assume that the expression of doubt about M still isn't tolerated around premies, but I note that M has dropped the 'don't doubt' commandment. So, is it still a cult? I would have to say it is. And keep in mind that things are not static, and in my opinion, Maharaji has a hard time resisting his psychological need to be worshipped. So, stay tuned. I liked this post quite a bit, JW. I think it's mostly spot-on. I would add that there are practicing premies doing egregiously wrong things as a direct result of a belief in crazy-making Maharaji theosophy. This is a lifetime mental illness (i.e. not-wellness) for many, many persons who either call themselves premie or did, at one time. It also affects their children; I've seen it on the kids' faces countless times (and denied I was seeing it). It's also been pointed out that Maharaji is over-ripe for a complete nervous breakdown, with concomitant suicide gestures -- it's inevitably on his personal horizon, without course-correction of a fundamental nature. That is actually the only argument I hear in favor of dismantling this website -- that it may directly precipitate real crisis in DLM (EV) of a tragic nature; one that nobody wants.
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Date: Sat, Jan 10, 1998 at 11:46:40 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email: joger02@aol.com
To: And On Anand Ji
Subject: Re: The Cult and Afterwards
Message:
Very interesting. Can you elaborate re the "no-wellness" you have seen among premies and ex-premies? What is it you see in their faces and the faces of their children? I know that might be hard to express. Also, I wouldn't be surprised if Maharaji might be prone to depression and intense self-doubt given what he has gotten into, but what leads you to say he is ripe for a nervous breakdown? Do you think it's possible he already HAD a nervous breakdown when he virtually disappeared for awhile?
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Date: Sat, Jan 10, 1998 at 13:23:26 (EST)
Poster: Joy
Email: Bluebirdd@aol.com
To: sure
Subject: Re: it matters (Re: The Cult and Afterwards)
Message:
I'd like to address this reply to "sure". (Having not read the ones after it yet. I may have more to say at that time.) You ask what my personal viewpoint on God is. I don't think it really matters what I think personally. It's the "my way is better than your way; mine is the only way to see it" mentality that makes me worried. I want to be open-minded enough to allow other people to have their own path. After all, didn't the Buddha say there were 84,000 paths? (I think he was probably referring to them under the umbrella of Buddhism, but that's neither here nor there.) Who are we to say that another person's spiritual experience (and way towards that experience) is not valid? Aren't there enough fanatical Muslims in the world murdering infidels in the name of Allah? If my friends want to set Maharaji on a throne and get their kicks by worshipping him, who am I to lay my trip on them? It's a free country, after all. Religious extremism in any form makes me nervous now (either pro or con), after thinking I knew it all for all those years, and was well and truly "saved" by the living Lord of the Universe. I prefer, at this point in my life, t keep my "holier than thou's" to myself and let people live their lives how they see fit, and am trying to have some respect for their experience, no matter how silly it may appear to me. It just seems such a crazy world to me, with everyone thinking they've got the corner on God and religious experience. I very much like that song by Iris DeMent, "Let the Mystery Be." Go listen and then talk to me some more.
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Date: Sat, Jan 10, 1998 at 13:30:30 (EST)
Poster: Joy
Email: Bluebirdd@aol.com
To: JW
Subject: Re: The Cult and Afterwards
Message:
Thanks for the intro, Joe. Wonder where I learned to make Indian food like that, and why? I had the lofty ambition to cook for the Lord of the Universe, and took intensive lessons from one of his best Indian cooks back in 1974. Then I practiced on Mahatmas for several years; used to cook full meals twice a day for the likes of Jagdeo and many others back in 1560 Race St. in Denver. He'd just snap his fingers when he wanted tea and I'd have to hustle to make it, along with fresh pakoras. What a life those guys lead, eh? I used to make sweets for the "Lord" and his cooks would send me back a piece or two wrapped in foil, as prasad, with bites taken out of them by God, and I'd become so excited and blissed out. EEyukk!
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Date: Sat, Jan 10, 1998 at 14:16:11 (EST)
Poster: It REALLY
Email: b
To: Joy
Subject: matters (Re: The Cult and Afterwards)
Message:
Hi there Joy, I'll assume thats your name. I can't find that song you mention although I would like to hear it if you reccomend it. I understand your idea of the holier than thou attitude. I was not saying that I think. Your right about this being a nutty place, and certainly there is no shortage of ideas about god. I was quite a devotee till about august, and I really didn't make the break till around christmas. My thoughts are that there IS an aware power irregaurdless of how many incorrect ideas we have of it. And the 84,000 idea you stated is one of those incorrect ideas I bet. Just the idea of a certain number points to it being a fantasy. Why not 84001? But one thing IS certain, maharaji has been fibbing, and that is a revelation for me and your friends. Asking you what your viewpoint on god is what half of this site is about. This is a place to discuss maharaji and his effect on us and our viewpoints on life and knowledge and if there is a view that all the very diverse people here can agree on as not having falsehood attached. You are maybe going to get away with just casually asserting that the comment you made about buddha was valid. You did use the words 'after all' as if we all just blindly accept if rumour has it that buddha said it it must 'after all' be true. This is a dicussion of truth and we have been through a lot here and it is not a matter of holier than thou. You said 'who are we to say that another persons experience is not valid?' Well, we needed to make that assessment in regards to maharaji and you have made that kind of judgement yourself if you determined maharaji is not the lord like he said he was. Now we here are not inclined to just accept the next sentence someone says just because they THINK it is true. Is discussion not ok? is it stepping on toes? In 1776 the king thought that but the americans didn't think that was enough a reason to stop killing others for the sake of thier freedom to confront falsehood. Your friend didn't WANT to set maharaji on a throne. HE set himself there and told us point blank that he was the lord. They have not seen through that yet and to help them is not laying a trip on them. To say or imply that WE are involved with 'religious extremeism in any form', is just probably a typing error on your part, but you would not be doing an act of 'religious extremism if you pointed out the fact that he is not the lord but he still is implying he is. It's one thing to 'let the mystery be' but this is no longer a mystery, it's quite clearly a falsehood and we object to it's devastating effect in our lives and it's continued unhindered propagation.
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Date: Sat, Jan 10, 1998 at 17:45:56 (EST)
Poster: Nigel (still here)
Email:
To: JW
Subject: A FOURTH CRITERION (Re: The Cult and Afterwards)
Message:
I know there are some differing views about the word 'cult' and what it means. I know Katie doesn't use the word, and I acknowledge it has become a bit loaded. But I still use it as I think it describes something for which I have no other label. It describes both what a cult is, and why leaving it and healing from the experience can be so traumatic and difficult. It explains why ex-premies, even 15 years later, can still feel anger at the betrayal they experienced. In my opinion, the subjective essence of the cult experience is psychological abuse, and betrayal in particular. Cults like DLM/EV ostensibly offer to fulfill commonly experienced human needs for understanding, certainty, and self-esteem. To me, the three basic elements (the absolutist triad) of a cult are: 1) black-and-white answers to life's problems, 2) a prohibition against entertaining doubts about those answers, and 3) a promise of being superior to everyone outside the group. These three elements were most definitely the basis of my involvement with Guru Maharaj Ji. I think people like me might be vulnerable to getting involved in such a cult because of stress caused by all kinds of factors that might be happening in our lives when we are first 'propogated to.' When someone actually joins the cult, he or she expects, as I did, benevolence, respect, love, help. But what one receives is very different. The reason is that the triad above is an illusion. It moves people away from reality and genuine human connections. It is the opposite of what one could call the the true human condition, the adaptive triad, which consists of: 1) tolerance of ambiguity (no black-and-white answers); 2) a questioning mind possessed of a healthy measure of doubt (discernment); 3) a humble yet critical openness to the meaning systems of other people. To the extent Maharaji's cult delivered the absolutist triad (and it tried very hard to do that), it came into conflict with the inexorable demands of the human condition. And the second reason cults like Maharaji's don't deliver the benevolent results they promise is the tendency to manipulate and exploit the members. Maharaji's cult tried to maintain people in systems like the ashrams, initiators, instructors, communities, service, that exploited the very needs his cult had promised to fulfill. In retrospect, it was remarkably successful in causing otherwise intelligent people to spend years in systems like the ashram that were harmful and sometimes abusive. So, when premies finally do leave, and the vast majority of them have, they often feel distress, the core of which is a sense of having been abused by someone thought to be benevolent, that is, of having been betrayed. In fact, I think when a lot of premies leave, they often feel 'spiritually raped,' violated at the core of their beings. I know I have felt this. As with physical rape, the violation is traumatic and severely damages the capacity to trust --oneself, others, and God. Understandably, the ex-premie can feel empty, depressed, guilty and painfully unsure of what or who is real and trustworthy and even how to discover what or who is real and trustworthy. I know I felt that way after I left, at least some of the time. But, I think you can begin again, but it's hard when you have nothing to hang onto. The fact that so many ex-premies have made it, as represented by the people who post here, I think is a testament to their courage and enduring capacity to love, if I do say so myself. And, I think the ability to talk about all of this with other people who understand what you are feeling is very valuable in the healing process. So, that's why I contiunue to use the word 'cult' when referring to Mahraji's cult because I think it's a very true description, despite the fact that we might not like to say that we actually WERE in a CULT. Hi JW, I'm still wired up, so I'll do one last post. I really enjoyed your analysis of what characterises a 'cult'. And, yes, I think you are absolutely right in insisting that DLM/EV is a cult. It may be embarrassing to admit it to ourselves that we were cult members (evil recruiters, even?), but simply by employing your three criteria (B&W doctrine/No Doubting/Exclusivity) it isn't easy to see it as anything else. If you'll excuse me, yet again, trying to play the scientist here, I've applied a rule or thumb to your argument that is regarded as a measure of a good theory, namely, sufficiency and necessity. Your three criteria are, I think, certainly NECESSARY when testing a movement's cultishness, but I'm not sure whether they are, in themselves, SUFFICIENT. For example, wouldn't a lot of fringe/fundamentalist sects found within mainstream religions qualify here? - groups that are not generally regarded as cults: The Mormons, or Jehovah's Witnesses, maybe? I would suggest one more important criterion to distinguish these from the more dangerous and obviously cultish ones, and make the theory sufficient: > (4) The presence of a LIVING 'divine'/inspirational leader. Consider the better-known cults of recent times: Scientology (Hubbard) Children of God (Moses David) Unification Church (Sun Myung Moon) DLM (Fraud of the Universe) Sanyassin (Baghwan Shri Rajneesh) Krishna Temple (Prabhapad) Branch Davidians (Koresh) Heaven's Gate (Applewhite) Solar Temple (??) Provided the followers don't die alongside their messiah, as in the last three tragic examples, the death of that leader will lead to one or other of two possible outcomes. (1) The movement will simply fizzle out and die This seems to have happened with the Rajneesh movement (2) If it is to last into a second generation of followers, it will become less 'absolutist' and more 'adaptive', ie., mainstream. I think this has happened with the Krishna Temple (at least in the UK), since the death of Prabhapad. They now wear western clothes, don't have to shave their heads, they take day jobs and make annual pilgrimages to festivals - alongside the regular hindu community. Their UK leader (a westerner who claims no special divine authority), regularly does 'Thought for Today' on BBC radio - harmless feelgood philosophical stuff. Twenty years back they had a responsibility to constantly chant the name of Krishna, aloud or to themselves, just as we used to 'constantly' (ahem) remember the Holy Name. I may be wrong, here, but it will be interesting to see what becomes of the Scientologists, now in a transitional phase following the death of LR Hubbard a few years back. Time will tell.
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Date: Sat, Jan 10, 1998 at 19:13:43 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: Nigel (still here)
Subject: Re: A FOURTH CRITERION (Re: The Cult and Afterwards)
Message:
Probably true, Nigel, but I guess it's just implied that there is one or more leaders who are alive. For example I think there are a number of Christian cults that ostensibly identify Jesus as the savior (Jesus Freaks, Jews for Jesus, etc.) but they obviously have some leaders, but they are not considered "divine," although they might be considered selected by some kind of divine hand. I don't think it's necessary that there be just one leader. And fringe/fundamentalist sects within religions might indeed be cults. I wouldn't count the Mormons because I think Mormons don't really believe in simplistic answers and are really an established religion. I'm not sure about Jehovah's Witnesses, I just don't get THEM at all. I also think it's possible that a group might start out as a cult and either dissolve or morph into a religion down the road. I think some of the mainstream protestant religions in the U.S. may have started out as cults but changed over the years as the original leaders died off and the dogma modified.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 8, 1998 at 20:50:51 (EST)
Poster: Witheld
Email:
To: Everyone
Subject: Considerations
Message:
Subject: MAHARAJI & GURUS: CONSIDERATIONS
From:Withheled
To:INWARDJOURNEYS PAGE

 

MAHARAJI & GURUS: CONSIDERATIONS

Firstly, I propose that it is conceivable that anyone can have a valid inner experience without the agency of Maharaji provided that they have some instruction in the same techniques. Whether people would value it enough to practice it regularly without encouragement, is another question. Its appeal is undoubtedly tied up with the way it is presented (in this case by Maharaji.) That is not to suggest that some other charismatic teacher could not make it as an appealing prospect as MJ. Perhaps they could inspire their pupils to practice Meditation regularly, without all the Guru worship and trappings.

Many people 'received Knowledge' in the Sixties and Seventies at a time when they were young, sincere, and highly vulnerable to interpreting their experiences in the manner and language prevalent at that time. That is to say that they allowed themselves to believe in Maharaji's hierarchical set up all too gullibily and thus became simple prey to the elaborate suggestions about him. They find themselves now, many years later, burdened with beliefs and concepts about their experiences. For example, many believe that their current inner experiences were only made possible by virtue of their distant past Initiation. They will never actually know for certain whether they could have achieved the same inner peace etc. just by practising the meditation.The association is forever made with Maharaji, although he probably was not even present at their initiation. (The vast majority of 'aspirants' were carefully selected and initiated by 'Instructors' who were supposed to be empowered to transmit Maharajis benediction or 'Grace' )

I know now of many such initiated people who meditate occasionally but who currently think that Maharajis methods and actions are so unscrupulous that they have decided not to go to see him anymore or support him financially. They doubt his authenticity. They still have inner experiences though. Are these experiences supposed to be invalid because they no longer believe that it is necessary or appropriate to follow and credit Maharaji as the only source of such experiences?

Maharaji does not necessarily have exclusive distribution rights for 'Knowledge'. He is possibly deluded and deluding others in this and other respects.

In due course the techniques such as those "revealed" by Maharaji may well be more common knowledge. The secrecy and 'sole distribution' phenomena may then disappear. People would make their own minds up about the value of the experience without being influenced by all the prerequisite (and highly suggestive) rhetoric.

Maharaji seems to spend a large amount of time stating or implying that premies ought to be extraordinarily grateful to 'Maharaji' for saving them.

Surely it is excessively suggestive to say this. Gratitude comes naturally, like respect, when it is earned, not when it is suggested or demanded. He appears to believe (or know) that he alone has an unique relationship with the Creator that others are denied.

He speaks about 'Maharaji' in his addresses as if it/he were someone else. The obvious contextual implication is that 'Maharaji' is a pseudonym for 'God'. He is unwilling to replace the word 'Maharaji' with 'I' or 'me' possibly because it would sound too grandiose. A lot of what he says is conveniently ambiguous. He will talk of Maharaji as being the omnipotent "Perfect Master of the time" but is very shy to say "I am he" so to speak. However he is clearly delighted to be 'recognised' as such by others.

Consider the possibility that Maharaji is wrong about the relevance of Knowledge. Maybe the 'certainty' one experiences in meditation is illusionary. A premature assumption. Or that there is a deeper revelation of "Knowledge" that awaiting us in Infinity. The fact is : We do not know.

Obviously it feels good to meditate...to empty ones mind. But the danger is that, when so blissfully distracted, one is extraordinarily vulnerable to the suggestions that are made to you about your experience and 'how you got it' whether it be from Maharaji or any other teacher of similar 'Shabd Yoga' (light and sound techniques.)

The following points are actually very open to interpretation and hence, to suggestion :

What it is.

(Supposedly direct communion with Truth, Consciousness and Bliss. Actually there are a variety of interpretations of "what it is" as demonstrated by the fact that people who have had it, describe it in highly personalised different ways. Essentially it is an experience potentially accessible to all individuals but arguably not through the agency of any particular individual who has a vested interest in being a distributor, exclusive or otherwise.)

Where it comes from.

(Supposedly from a single living Perfect Master- A concept hungrily accepted by people eager to embrace the notion of the re-appearance of someone resembling the beloved figurehead of the religion of their upbringing)

Knowledge....Who gives it to the aspirant ?

 

The Master bestows Knowledge to his pupils (not the instructor) by the mysterious means of His Grace and he can do it from a distance. When the Master grants the chosen aspirant access to his or her inner experience it is understood to be an extraordinary privilege. When the aspirant receives initiation from the Master in person, the association with the latter is most easily made.

This particular Master, it seems, uniquely understands the criteria by which a human being may be judged as worthy to be revealed the knowledge of the essence of his or her life and soul.

In the period leading up to initiation, as well as being offered much encouragement, the aspirant is confronted by his or her fundamental insecurity, unworthiness and ignorance about life . The possibility of rejection is felt and he or she sometimes becomes mentally and emotionally disoriented. When acceptance is finally given (usually for no stated reason other than that it is by the mercy of the Master) the aspirant has hopefully let go of most of his or her doubts and is now humbly and happily accepting whatever comes next.

The aspirant feels utterly dependant on the decision of this one man, the Master or SatGuru. The prospect that one man holds the key to his or her life is both intimidating and alluring.

The Master clearly defines the steps to be taken to (even slightly) qualify for being accepted as his pupil. It is time for serious commitment to be made, and there is never enough time to consider it fully.

The aspirant remembers. I do not deserve the blessing that is going (possibly) to be bestowed. I am particularly fortunate to be here. I must not blow it!The aspirant surrenders to the 'benign autocracy' of the Master. The pupil must trust the Master in order to proceed.

It is not easy at this stage (contrary to what was initially said) for the aspirant to walk away even if he or she wants to . If the instructions of the Master are rejected he or she may feel that they ally themselves to the feared, and to some extent experienced, force of the 'Mind'.

This 'Mind' is the enemy of the Heart and warning has been given against it's distracting powers.

The aspirant naturally chooses to follow closely the instructions of the 'Saviour of his or her Heart' with hope, trust, reverence and awe. 'Love' and 'Need' are mixed with 'Fear' and 'Dependency'

To question and reject the proposed spiritual dependency on the Master is to risk 'missing a lifetime opportunity'.

The aspirant experiences an intense confrontation with his or her insecurity about life. It is a confrontation which brings an actual sense of undergoing ego-death. This is interpreted as a sign of healthy spiritually progress.

The aspirant wants to be accepted by the Superior Power and begins, more and more, to 'Experience' the Master as the merciful and Divine Authority (incarnated in impressively gentle-but sometimes tough- human form) who gives (or shows in the perfect mirror that is Him) the completely undeserved but ultimate reflection of a devotees true self.

The aspirant is, by now, acutely aware of his or her insignificance and is putty in the Master's hands. Everything that the Master says or does appear to the aspirant as so many 'little drops of mercy'.

It is compelling to see the process through, rejecting any misgivings as temptation from the Mind. Whatsmore the aspirant already seems to be experiencing the presence of the Superior Power. 'Judgement Day' has already become a kind of living and present reality . He or she ignores their distracting Mind, which has been reacting quite badly to all this . (Trying to tell them not to buy into the whole trip without more consideration )

Is it really The 'Superior Power' that confronts the aspirant, or is it merely a superior power ? In which case is it to be perfectly trusted ?

 

What you owe the person who told you about it.

 

Maharajis charges certainly were and still are to some extent, that you suspend your doubts and practice meditation and devotion to him and that you never tell anyone how you practice the experience and that you go and see him whenever you can.

Maharaji often cites to his followers, quotations of "ideal" devotees who feel forever indebted and grateful to to their Master. (The ever-present collection of subservient Instructors etc. who populate the front row seats, provide an example as do the quotes from Tulsidas and Kabir etc.) The suggestion is that the Master (he himself) is indispensable to those who have understood who he really is, and that one should aspire to such gratitude oneself. If one doesn't feel this gratitude one gets the distinct feeling that one doesn't exactly measure up as a devotee. He emphasises the point until there is the danger that one can be intimidated into feeling that he or she lacks gratitude whether or not one has had any experience to feel commensurately grateful for. All this is met with apparent reverence and general accord by all those present. This obviously creates a persuasive atmosphere which can somewhat overwhelm ones defences against intimidating assertions.

The suggestion that one should suspend ones doubts (and the compounding relief that one experiences when one finally does ) impresses the listener that he or she is having a "peaceful inner experience" or "a revelatory spiritual voyage" through the agency of Maharaji..Occasionally one is actually so bored by the insubstantiality of the rhetoric that one abandons listening to the words and, in the ensuing void, finds oneself strangely free of inhibitions and light headed. This is possibly falsely interpreted as a transcendental experience of love and peace. Drugs such as Ecstacy (which effect the brain by increasing levels of Seratonin ) produce a strikingly similar effect, as do disorienting, traumatic life events, such as time in hospital, or the death of a loved one.

One suspends ones mind in the so-called 'cleansing flow of Satsang' (Maharajis addresses) only to risk having it filled with suggestions that reinforce acceptance of Maharaji's setup of the Master and pupil relationship and his particular recipe for spiritual growth.

 

Society provides no guidelines when it comes to trying to navigate the psychological and spiritual turmoil that one enters when falling under the influence of such Masters. In the future, Maharaji (and indeed many other Gurus) may be made to account to society for the ways that they exercised the powers that they have gained over others. Obviously this would be a fate shared with many of the so-called Enlightened Ones whose followers have allowed them to go too far in exercising their temporary license for megalomania.

It is well known that Maharaji leads a typically western lifestyle, 'warts and all'. In other words he suffers from the same marriage problems,depressions, desires, capacity for making mistakes etc. as do most people. At least he would appear to.

If Maharaji is privately such a different man than the Guru that impresses himself upon his followers, then there seems to be cause to reconsider his integrity. This inevitably involves his private life at some stage.

Maharaji shares with the likes of film stars the inescapable consequences of being famous. That is to say that his private life inevitably becomes of interest to his admirers.

Those who court popularity on such a large scale often forget that they cannot restrict the interest of their audiences to the areas that suit them. Inevitably their admirers want to see how their idols live off stage.

 

In the case of premies, they naturally expect to find in Maharajis private life, an abundance of examples of his Divine Play and a living source of parables from which to draw further inspiration.What they may not expect to find, if rumours are to be believed, is the sight of a Satguru who, being separated (albeit temporarily) from the dynamic of the love of his devotees in between "Events" is prone to washing away his sorrows with the bottle.

It has been recently rumoured that Maharaji has become, quote.. "an alcoholic, autocratic, philanderer".

There are few premies who have not heard and mutely accepted, via the grapevine, that Maharaji is indeed not immune to the pitfalls of overwork nor does his 'Mastership' exempt him from suffering the same sort of everyday problems as most other human beings . Does this cast doubt on his authenticity as a bona fide Spiritual Master? Possibly not in itself.

Even if ones Guru frequently drinks too much or has extra-marital affairs or whatever, is this reason to mistrust his teachings? Of course, Krishna was not charged with abusing his power when he cavorted with numerous Gopis.

 

Even if this sort of conduct were deemed as acceptably integral to Perfect Mastership then it still seems rather mean to prescribe a lifetime of celibacy and teetotalism to ones followers.( As Maharaji did in the case of Ashram premies.) and then to secretly live the kind of lifestyle that would not be out of place in a Jackie Collins novel.

There abound some pretty outrageous allegations about Maharajis lifestyle. Obviously they may be malicious lies, but there is no smoke without fire.

Unfortunately, zealots routinely sanction their Masters hypocrisies with the assumption that the latter is beyond delusion or the corruption of power. All too often they are proved wrong and then they have to face the difficult prospect of accepting that they were duped.

Maharaji has always been wary of the Premie Grapevine, possibly he has reason to be.

He has clearly discouraged dissent and tolerated sycophants to the point where it appears that it may backfire on him. He allegedly sometimes feels lonely, sitting on the pinnacle of his society of necessarily subservient premies. His constant insistence on their exclusive dependency on him, has kept them in a state of compliant Arrested Development.

In private he apparently likes to down a few Scotches and exchange bawdy jokes with a distinctly less fawning company. There are few who he chooses to 'hang out with' so loosely. But he obviously does feel the need to take a break from being the all powerful, awe inspiring Lord, and to chill out over a few drinks occasionally. Why not?

Obviously a select inner circle of premies, family and friends, silently and unquestioningly accept his behaviour. Few of them wish to go down in history for being be a Judas in his court. Quite the opposite, they protect him loyally and feel highly privileged to be a part of the exclusive few who see him in private. Some are probably terrified for their souls to risk getting in his bad books.

Obviously the experience of immersing oneself in total devotional love for Maharaji is sometimes accompanied by fear of the prospect of being away from it, or rejected by it / Him.

Maharaji is also protected from general criticism, to some degree, by confining his public appearances to the sympathetic alternate society that he has created.

Those who suspend judgement and follow a Guru with wishful thinking and surrender, run the risk of being disillusioned at a later date. ie: when it is too late. They risk devoting a valuable part of their lives to supporting, and following the advice of a man who later turns out to have been himself deluded.

There are many historical examples of people whose trusting judgements about leaders turn out to be quite wrong, and in the end they are left disillusioned and in a state of hurt. Recovery from such involvement can be long an painful.

Premies often have little or a wrong idea of the way that their Master conducts his life away from the context of his 'Events'. Illogically, they maintain that criticism of him personally is irrelevant by virtue of the overriding efficacy of his gift of Knowledge etc. Premies, told of controversial aspects of his personal conduct/ private life etc. will usually dispute them outright. They will not feel the need to investigate the truth of the matter. They will dismiss the rumours that don't ring true to them and embrace and proclaim the ones that suit them. Maharaji as Spiritual Master can behave absolutely as he likes in a worldly way and will always retain the respect and devotion of his devotees.

There is a limit to how far this generous attitude will stretch to any but the most die-hard .

A Master is certainly not going to endear himself to those who are "Hungry for Truth" if they discover that he exercises his power over his followers for self gain., and certainly not if for the satisfaction of of his sexual appetite etc.

Indian Gurus have historically persuaded others to adopt their particular way to enlightenment, always via them and often, not without a considerable amount of self gain as a result. These self -proclaimed Masters are numerous in India and indeed now, in the West.

 

By fair means or foul they continue to get people to associate their good inner experiences with them personally. They are the Master. Their mastership is, in effect, their business.Unrealistically there are many who proclaim to be the One. It remains for the individual to discern the Truth of the matter. A daunting task.

Because inner experiences, such as those accessed in Meditation, universally 'feel good', it is not difficult for a Guru to persuade people to associate "goodness" with him personally when he instructs them in such practices.

Many Gurus from the Rhadasoami tradition (from which Maharaji comes) have 'used the inner experiences of their followers to their social advantage'. They appear however (particularly to wishful thinking westerners) to be quite innocent in their power play, not withstanding their huge captive audiences and the wealth of Hindu stories from which they draw examples to back up their claims and impress their largely unsophisticated and impressionable audiences.

 

Arguably what the poor of the world most need today is better education and better living standards, not more religious indoctrination. Maharaji and those like him may give these people what they think they need and will readily consume, i e: spiritual trips. To reinforce their Hindu concepts is possibly a rather unhealthy retrograde step. Eventually, real understanding, through broad education, will hopefully free these people from slavishly adopting particular separative religious paths.

If Maharaji won't make any attempt to personally soothe the troubled brows of those followers who feel hurt or confused by him and/or his organisation, then what can he expect other than to come under fire (in forums such as the ex-cult newsgroup, this website etc) from those who want to vent their frustrations and recover their integrity? It seems only a matter of time until Maharaji will be pressed publically to explain himself, more than he currently does, to aspirants who have been alerted, by growing global communications media, to the hidden psychological abuses that he stands accused of. But then, as SatGuru, he may not feel that he has to account to anyone.

Less objectively inclined followers of Maharaji are obviously chronically incapable of, or unwilling to put themselves sympathetically in the shoes of disenchanted people. However there are undeniably those who have indeed suffered considerable mental turmoil following Maharaji and it is obviously appropriate that they should speak of the difficulties they have encountered, without chastisement.

Moreover If a teacher is all sweetness and light until controversies are raised about him (and then he avoids the issues by silence) then he may well have something to hide.

The spirit of questioning the authenticity of a Guru is no less sincere than the desire to embrace one's Creator through his teachings. Surely Maharaji, who makes the ultimately grandiose claim, should be scrutinised all the more rigorously before one hands over to him the reins of ones life as he once prescribed. Conversely Maharajis way inevitably demands a moment where one must abandon doubt and proceed with somewhat blind trust.

When one approaches Maharaji, no matter how sweet and seductive the introduction may be, one is soon confronted with the uncompromising reality of his claim to Divine Authority. This can be reassuring and terrifying. To accept him and his path inevitably means that ones commitment must be also uncompromising, and one must either 'shape up or ship out' as he once put it. What remains unacceptable to me personally is the fact that I have experienced fear to be a part of the process and that this is not consistent with my 'idea' or 'hope' that God is an ultimately loving power with gentle means of obtaining my devotion. Frankly I am afraid that it could be a very powerful con and I am not ready to commit myself until I feel comfortable, or at least healed from the subjugation that I have felt when in his influence.
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Date: Fri, Jan 9, 1998 at 05:01:48 (EST)
Poster: Mr Ex
Email:
To: Witheld
Subject: Re: Considerations
Message:
Thanks a lot for this post. This summarize what I presently feel very well ....
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Date: Fri, Jan 9, 1998 at 08:29:39 (EST)
Poster: C
Email: **
To: Witheld
Subject: D (Re: Considerations)
Message:
nicely put CD
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Date: Sat, Jan 10, 1998 at 09:32:16 (EST)
Poster: Sir David
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: Witheld
Subject: Re: Considerations
Message:
I haven't read all of this yet but the first few pages have been very enlightening. When I sit down and consider things objectively it seems utterly ridiculous that I should have believed that my experiences in meditation were something to do with an Indian man. The terminology that has been used has all contributed towards a myth. "Receiving knowledge" as opposed to showing meditation techniques. "The grace of Guru Maharaj Ji" as opposed to the result of your own effort. And the insidious way in which Maharaji calls God "Maharaji". It is unfortunate that the people who did meditate consciensiously, were led to believe that their experience was due to Maharaji. Such a deceite is immoral, in my opinion.
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Date: Sat, Jan 10, 1998 at 11:17:24 (EST)
Poster: Brian
Email:
To: Sir David
Subject: Re: Considerations
Message:
It is unfortunate that the people who did meditate consciensiously, were led to believe that their experience was due to Maharaji. Such a deceite is immoral, in my opinion. Absolutely. Now add to that how these people were told that they couldn't realize Knowledge without becoming devoted to Mahararji, and the personal enrichment brought to him by people acting sincerely on that belief, and you have fraud. Nice work, MJ.
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Date: Sun, Jan 11, 1998 at 13:41:50 (EST)
Poster: seymour
Email: seymour_t@rocketmail.com
To: Witheld
Subject: Re: Considerations
Message:
I thought your posting was very thorough, intelligent and all too true. i.e."many believe that their current inner experiences were only made possible by virtue of their distant past Initiation. They will never actually know for certain whether they could have achieved the same inner peace etc. just by practising the meditation. The association is forever made with Maharaji, although he probably was not even present at their initiation." If there is any value in practicing the meditation then this is a real shame as I know most of us who become disillusioned with DLM also abandon anything to do with ‘spiritual’ matters and therefore perhaps miss out on the benefits of meditation. I personally am unconvinced it does anything but relaxes your mind and could even be harmful to your thought process and social life - but I do not really know what it is about. Although I did have a few good experiences it never made me a wiser or more ethical person. "The aspirant remembers. I do not deserve the blessing that is going (possibly) to be bestowed. I am particularly fortunate to be here. I must not blow it!The aspirant surrenders to the 'benign autocracy' of the Master. The pupil must trust the Master in order to proceed." Exactly - and trust is a valuable commodity gets harder to manifest with each betrayal. I would be grateful if you could send me an e-mail so that I could have a chat in the future. All the best. Seymour.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 8, 1998 at 17:57:10 (EST)
Poster: Jim(brother of 2)
Email:
To: Katie and Everyone
Subject: THEY PAID THE ULTIMATE PRICE
Message:
I thought the list started in the thread below deserved its own header. I offer this in memory of those below and in the hope that places like this website and discussion board will offer an alternative to all whose despair is so deep. Jeremy Thomas Frost -died 1988 Samuel Ray Jablonski -died 1994
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Date: Fri, Jan 9, 1998 at 21:29:22 (EST)
Poster: -----------------------------------
Email: b
To: Jim(brother of 2)
Subject: THEY PAID THE ULTIMATE PRICE (Re: THEY PAID THE ULTIMATE PRICE )
Message:
debbie katz 1979 hartford mira bai 1984 miami suicide a young women from new haven ct 1979 suicide a guy from springfield mass 1990 died from a disease he got at an indian festival.
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Date: Fri, Jan 9, 1998 at 22:52:03 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: Jim(brother of 2)
Subject: Re: THEY PAID THE ULTIMATE PRICE
Message:
Greg Dickey -- 1975 That friend of Jim's Dave Weiner, I don't know the date.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 8, 1998 at 14:20:42 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: Everyone
Subject: Emotions/Thinking and Meditation
Message:
On a thread below, people have been discussing how as premies many of us repressed both our thoughts (especially anything considered a "doubt") and emotions and were encouraged to do so by Maharaji and his Mahatmas. In my experience, I used meditation to do this. In fact, my experience is that the meditation Maharaji advocated was simply a means of slowing down, or jamming the thought and emotion processes, which lead to some rare "nice" experiences, but was really for another purpose. Since Maharaji said we were supposed to do meditation (follow your breath and do nectar) 24 hours a day, it was a real means of preventing feelings of doubt or unwanted emotions. One of the books I read soon after leaving the cult was "Snapping" by Drs. Conway and Siegelman. In that book, they say the following about the meditation taught by Maharaji: "In contrast to the emptrying of the mind that takes place in TM, the Guru Maharaj Ji type of meditation was what would be called concentration. The meditation that Maharaj Ji was teaching involved intensity, not depth. The intensity was the concentration with which you focused on, say, the sound of your own breathing. As such, it was simply a technique for jamming the mind, in the sense that the Russian government might jam Radio Free Europe by broadcasting sounds of railroad collisions on the same frequency. It gives those who do it a certain absence of feeling. It eventually can reach a point where, when one has doubts, guilt or other uncomfortable emotions, one immediately reacts by meditating. After a while, some former members report that any significant thought that one might have was immediately obliterated by meditating." This was certainly my experience being a premie. This, of course, has to be taken in the context that Maharaji both commanded that we always remember the holy name technique (concentrate on our breath) and he also commanded that we "never leave room for doubt in [our] mind." We were also told that we should be beyond questions, and both M and the mahatmas denigrated or avoided someone who asked questions as "in your mind." Hence, meditation was used to avoid unwanted thoughts and emotions. Now, I understand that the new and improved Guru Mahararj Ji (nka "Maharaji") does not talk about those commandements anymore, nor does he say one should meditate 24 hours a day. In fact, I heard that he recommends just meditating 15 minutes a day, kind of like how TM is done. But there is a contradiction here. At the same time he apparently says this, I heard him say in the 1996 Long Beach video that he couldn't understand why anyone would do anything besides be in "that beautiful place" which you presumably get to by utilizing one of his meditation techniques. JW
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Date: Thurs, Jan 8, 1998 at 15:47:39 (EST)
Poster: John K.
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: Emotions/Thinking and Meditation
Message:
Joe: I know I've told you this before, but you really are in your mind, and I mean that as a compliment. My son, you are thinking too much! Just relax, trust, exPERience! Actually, I don't meditate nearly as much as I used to, but then I do have a life to live. And, when I do meditate I don't really follow the instructions because I don't find them practical to my experience. It's impossible for me for any length of time to 'not think'. Yeah, I do experience locking my attention on my breath, and it's great, because you know what happens? I gradually fall asleep and have a most delightful nap. Ah, now the truth comes out about my lofty 'spiritual experiences'. My most supreme and blissful experience? A nap! Give me an afternoon nap and I'm on top of the world! Believe me, I am NOT critizing or belittling the experience! And I am being serious now. I do have interesting experiences in meditation. I see people, I do things...I see the most incredible faces, really I do, and I have other things happen to me also...and I don't want to bore anyone with this stuff because it's probably of no general interest, but my point really is that the experiences I do have which to me are very real are nothing that gmj has ever talked about. At least he never used to. Maybe he does now? I know he does give knowledge reviews - at least that is what I have heard and maybe he has question and answer sessions at which experiences are discussed in more depth than they were 15 years ago. Maybe someone knows? Also, since you mentioned 'emotions'. I do know that when I am in the throes of certain emotions - like anger - meditation is of course NOT the answer. So the idea of 'constantly meditate' (I know, that was the 'old' Knowledge, it's now new and revised) is absurd and sure to produce feelings of frustration and guilt. I also do believe that certain personality types ( like my own) are better suited for meditation than other types, yet I never heard gmj ever mention that either.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 8, 1998 at 16:37:13 (EST)
Poster: 'that
Email: b
To: JW
Subject: place' (Re: Emotions/Thinking and Meditation)
Message:
that place that place, deeper is another one. For all his free time and money to burn, and cars and planes yachts and jet skis and houses and toys and stereos and wife and kids and servants, music about him, kingly lifestyle and valet and mistress on the side, HE managed to not stay or be in 'that place. By his own admission, and all the evidence. The smartness didn't create a creation without some ground rules and standards and left itself with some form of system for influencing human behavior. You only use a term like 'that place' when you are talking about something that you don't know, that is fantasy, that you are not in. Classic eastern carrot out of reach. He is not out of the fog yet.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 8, 1998 at 17:48:10 (EST)
Poster: Mike
Email: bigguy32@juno.com
To: John K.
Subject: Gently, softly, catchy monkey (Re: Emotions/Thinking and Meditation)
Message:
John and Joe you're both in your minds... thank god! I feel like I'm really off the beaten path from what you two have described. The way that Satyanand and Kirpalanand described meditation was that in addition to the activities of the day.. we bring our attention gently to stillness, name, nectar, music and light. They both (taught by Charan Singh and made mahatmas under shri hans) said that every activity of life, is a play of consciousness of holy name. Therefore, using force to achieve something that provides all activities isn't necessary. Allowing yourself to be available to experience is how I've always approached meditation. Back in Shri Hans's time... if you used any force, you were doing it incorrectly. The big thing then and for me now is, to make myself avaiable to the experience. It's interesting that PPR is re-packaging knowledge into a TM format. Even Maharishi himself holds the same philosophy as shri hans in that the practitioner makes themself available to the experience in a natural way, and doesn't use force to conjure an experience.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 8, 1998 at 20:34:27 (EST)
Poster: Sir David
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: Anyone
Subject: is this place (Re: Emotions/Thinking and Meditation)
Message:
Maharaji has created a mytth, a duality. The more I look at it the more it appears that he's never had an experience in meditation. To seperate any experience from meditation from ourselves and to call it "that place" makes me suspicious that he does not know what he's talking about. Sometime If anyone meditates they will know that any experience comes and goes. There is no way to tie it down. There are no rules which one can practise which will bring the experience. I think an hours too long to meditate for especially if you've not done it for a while. Why not just 20 minutes meditation. Then perhaps do more after a week. Meditation on these techniques doesn't kill desire. That's a fallacy if I ever heard one. You cannot TRY to meditate it's absurd, any more than you can try to go to sleep. Maharaji is responsible for putting a lot of people off the simple practise of meditation. He has made a "worship me" religion out of something that should be as natural as having a bath. If I were showing someone this meditation I would suggest 5 minutes per technique and only increase the length of time you practise technique if after a few weeks you feel the urge to do more. You cannot force meditation or peace of mind. _________Maharaji has been responsible for many people LOSING their peace of mind. 20 minutes meditation per day and no trip attatched to it. Live your life as you want, do what you want, do not deny your natural desires or emotions. Trying to deny desires and emotions causes conflict which is VERY bad for a person. Such conflict cannot last and just screws up a person. Give nothing up, except Maharaji's trip, and try 5 minutes per day on each technique. A little bit of peace of mind, free from the Maharaji trip, can make a person realise that, hey, I'm OK man! I am right. My thoughts and feelings and desires are of value and not to be swept under the carpet or repressed. Because the one thing I have experienced from some meditation is that it's just myself, it's me in THIS place that's real. Don't expect more than pleasant glimpses of what already is. Be yourself, live life to the full and be a force in this world because meditation won't take you out of it! Finally Maharaji, you are a hypocrite. You have never practised the crap that you've preached. You know nothing about people. You have no sympathy or understanding of people. Maharaji, it is YOU who are the ignorant one pretending to be knowledgable. If it hadn't been for the Indian Mahatmas and your family lineage, you could never have started this cult.
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Date: Fri, Jan 9, 1998 at 00:07:53 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: Sir David
Subject: Re: is this place (Re: Emotions/Thinking and Meditation)
Message:
Exactly right in my opinion, David. It all became a means for obtaining worship and devotion from the premies. I know he's trying to cover over that fact now, but in my opinion, the cover is very transparent. It's still about worship of and devotion to Maharaji, all the way to the bank, to the extent he can get away with it.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 8, 1998 at 01:55:53 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: Everyone
Subject: Ashrams (Closed)
Message:
In all the months I have been reading posts on this and the earliar forums, I still haven't heard an explanation for why Maharaji closed the ashrams when he did, in about 1983. I also haven't heard what the premies were told about why that was being done. I left the ashram, and the cult, in about March, 1983. I had no involvement with the cult after that. I know that about six months after that, the ashrams in San Francisco closed. And I guess they closed elsewhere as well. But what were those premies told about why it was happening? Did Maharaji ever discuss it with them? And I heard Maharaji gave satsang once in about 1986 when he explained, or supposedly explained, why that happened. Does anyone know the details about this?
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Date: Thurs, Jan 8, 1998 at 02:09:51 (EST)
Poster: And On Anand Ji
Email: aoa
To: JW
Subject: Re: Ashrams (Closed)
Message:
In all the months I have been reading posts on this and the earliar forums, I still haven't heard an explanation for why Maharaji closed the ashrams when he did, in about 1983. I also haven't heard what the premies were told about why that was being done. I was in the Air Force, and was home on leave, visiting; perhaps it was 1982. Some premie -- I don't recall who it was -- took me to this new (and later: final) ashram on the east side of the river -- I'd never been there before or since; the ashram I lived in was on the other side of the river and it was in 1978, the year I received knowledge. I didn't recognize anyone in that 1982 ashram. It was odd. Next time I surfaced was probably when I got out of the service, in 1984. I don't recall if I pursued looking up premies right away -- it may've been quite some time before I learned there was no ashram, anywhere. So -- to me, maharaji closed down the strange ashram on the wrong side of the river with the anti-premies in it. Don't do me any favors! :)
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Date: Thurs, Jan 8, 1998 at 03:45:09 (EST)
Poster: op
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: Ashrams (Closed)
Message:
Please forgive me if I'm wrong, but this is my understanding. - p/r: the ashrams were part of what caused DLM to be seen as a cult in this country; communal living, handing over one's salary, etc. - westerners never quite adapted to the kind of discipline ashram living really entails, and a lot of those who moved into the ashrams did so because they couldn't deal with society. - concepts ran rampant, including the whole idea of a pecking order with the instructors at the top, followed by a series of ashram commanders, then the standard ashram premies, and on to various levels of 'householder' premies. As I've said before, I wasn't at the ashram meetings that M held in the late 70s-early 80s, but my feeling from the days when the ashrams folded was that part of it was to get away from those divisions. - some pretty heavy things also happened because of lack of security combined with a not-so-positive relationship with the local citizenry. A few other people have posted items about DLM running out of money, etc. I don't know anything about that. I did know a lot of ashram residents who went straight to living in communal 'premie houses' after the ashram, some single-sex, some mixed. Those people seem to have survived the transition back into the world pretty well. I've heard of others for whom the road back to worldly life was pretty bumpy.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 8, 1998 at 06:06:01 (EST)
Poster: Mr Ex
Email:
To: op
Subject: Re: Ashrams (Closed)
Message:
Dear OP, It looks like you tend to forget a few things here, you might not be aware of : >- p/r: the ashrams were part of what caused DLM to be seen as a cult in this country; communal living, handing over one's salary, etc. 1/ Mr PP Rawat lost all his trials against his mother and brother, and lost DLM in court, in India and in the US. 2/ Elan Vital/ex-DLM is still a cult and officially considered as such : are you forgetting EV’ charity status? In the US, in UK, in India and likely some other countries. It would be nice to have copies of these status. >- westerners never quite adapted to the kind of discipline ashram >living really entails, and a lot of those who moved into the ashrams >did so because they couldn't deal with society. I could deal with society very well, as I and a lot of ex-ashram people do now. What is this need of ‘discipline’ anyway? Does it have anything to do with m’s knowledge? Even now? What’s different between now and the past? Isn’t it the same knowledge? >- concepts ran rampant, including the whole idea of a pecking order with the >instructors at the top, followed by a series of ashram commanders, then the standard >ashram premies, and on to various levels of 'householder' premies. As I've said >before, I wasn't at the ashram meetings that M held in the late 70s-early 80s, but my >feeling from the days when the ashrams folded was that part of it was to get away >from those divisions. Were all these people idiots? Are they still now? I did attend to most of these meetings. M’s agyas were very precise. >- some pretty heavy things also happened because of lack of security combined with a >not-so-positive relationship with the local citizenry. What is this ‘security’ problems? Can you elaborate? >A few other people have posted items about DLM running out of money, etc. I don't >know anything about that. DLM made a lot of money at that time. But it was wasted because of these out of control co-ordinators, and used to maintain the whole system instead of getting to Mr Rawat! >I did know a lot of ashram residents who went straight to living in communal 'premie >houses' after the ashram, some single-sex, some mixed. Those people seem to have >survived the transition back into the world pretty well. I've heard of others for whom the >road back to worldly life was pretty bumpy. Pretty bumpy, yeah..... Some literally didn’t survive : they killed themselves. Why don’t we try to make a list of them?
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Date: Thurs, Jan 8, 1998 at 06:27:01 (EST)
Poster: Sir David
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: Mr Ex
Subject: Re: Ashrams (Closed)
Message:
Thanks for another excellent post Mr Ex. It should be said that the reason why premies moved into ashrams was because Maharaji said that that was the only place a single person could devote their lives to him. Also once we were in< Maharaji impressed upon us that we would descend into the depths (or words to that effect) if we moved out. I was quite happy "in the world" before I was coerced into moving into an ashram. Really the history of all this needs to be kept accurate. OP is painting a gloss over things.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 8, 1998 at 08:19:45 (EST)
Poster: Brian
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: Ashrams (Closed)
Message:
In posts here I've seen references to some women being shot in a ashram in the Southern US somewhere. I don't recall the details, and I wasn't active at the time. But from what I've seen of MJ's actions, he doesn't do anything that isn't self-serving. I can't imagine him closing the ashrams unless they were proving to be a drain on what he viewed as his personal resources, and/or a liability. If MJ encourages someone to live in an ashram, and doesn't provide security at the site, then his organization could be found to be liable for any resulting death/injury suffered by those living "under his roof". In other words, the reasons were: Money, Money, and Money. In that order.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 8, 1998 at 09:15:33 (EST)
Poster: his
Email: bb
To: Mr Ex
Subject: story (Re: Ashrams (Closed))
Message:
Well op, where I was it was a different story. so called westerners DID adapt completely to whatever maharaji laid out. anything he said we did and we did it well. real well. Some folks, the tiny minority, didn't play along but most certainly did. And people moved into the ashram because maharaji severely demanded it. To say they couldn't deal with society is amazing. We were all a bit strange to others but that was because we were in a small world with it's own rules and viewpoints. Maharaji was not running out of money. He was spending tremendous amounts of money with his flying demands and family lifestyle. He was always aquireing things and flying the helicopter from miami beach to the airport and then flying whatever plane was the plane of the moment. He flew the helicopter to the airport from the beach even though it was a short car ride. His yacht, planes, cars, houses, motorhome, and very large staff were costly and the 'mission' people were NOT (mr ex) blowing the money. Maharaji had very tight control over everything. Whatever he had for staff in his world was his decision. They had many homes, and on and on. In 80, it was 8 million that came in. And that is just the mission money. And not counting the very expensive and numerous gifts of objects he would get for his birthday, fathers day, valentines day, christmas, ect.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 8, 1998 at 09:21:48 (EST)
Poster: Read this OP..
Email:
To: op
Subject: Re: Ashrams 1 (Re: Ashrams (Closed))
Message:

My best ever experience of the knowledge was when I was far away from ashrams, premies, satsang or "video events" as I believe they're now called. I was working in a hotel by the seaside and had long periods just sitting around waiting for someone to order tea and sandwiches and would sit in my little porters room, spacing out into the word. I got deeper and deeper into it as the days went on and was amazed by the sheer pleasure of it.

Eventually I left my seaside haven and moved back to London and started attending satsang again to be told how I had to devote my life to Maharaji and live in an ashram.

In the years I lived in the ashram I found it more and more difficult to meditate, with the heavy work load, lack of sleep and constant badgering from other premies. After two years I left the ashram, a total wreck and to this day, I've never had the same depth or duration of meditation as I'd had in my seaside haven.

This left me with a question. If Maharaji was the Lord then why did he persuade me to go and live in an ashram and therefore lose my experience of the knowledge?


As a teenager I was very affected by all this 'join the Ashram' pressure. I was certainly very intimidated on numerous occasions of 'heavy Satsangs' often from Maharaji himself, mainly in closed 'Ashram premies only' meetings.


I'm an ex-English ex-premie and I experienced living in a WPC ashram in the early days. The low spot of my life, for sure. I've posted longish post inviting discussion among ex-premies under the title "MAHARAJI, a way to avoid feelings and facts."

I had lots of good times too, but as I mention in my post, there is a sort of sweet insidiousness about the whole thing that bothers me. It was a cult, it was mind-control, Maharaji was (is?) clearly a manipulator. I know lots of inner circle people, including a close friend who lived with him for many years and was devastated by his abuse and is just recovering after 12 years away from him.


A man walked into a bar with a pile of dog shit in his hand and said "look what I almost stepped in." It seems to apply to the individuals who thrive on negativity about Maharaji.I don't understand the negativity.I received knowledge in 1971. It was free. At that time many people chose to"give up their material things" and move into an Ashram. I didn't want to, and didn't."
- X

Okay, so you were a greased pig. Lucky you. Some of us, on the other hand, trusted Maharaji about as much as he wanted. He said 'jump', we asked how high. He said move into the ashram, we did. We trusted him b/c he asked us to and we were told by EVERYONE -- from the top down -- that he was the Lord. You clung to the edge of the bowl, but it was still a toilet.

 


I left when I got ripped apart internally, which threatened my health on many levels. It was when MJ reinstated the ashrams which I had gladly escaped after 6 years, and clearly implied that complete devotion (meaning enlightenment, making it, etc.) depended on moving back into the shram. I was happily married and finally getting some rest after the frantic pace of ashram life and day and night service, satsang and meditation I had been in for 6 years. I attended some of the inner circle meetings with MJ in the years from 77-83, and I heard him yell and threaten and belittle anything less than total, total, dedication. He told friends of mine who were instructors that they "should never think one sexual thought, or they would be cast out," and that the ideal was to be burned up like a match, that their needs didn't matter, etc. etc.

Since we were a rich couple, it was tacitly implied that we were okay being married (the pipeline would have dried up if we moved back into the ashram) but at the same time, we would never be able to do the "real" thing, which was to be an initiator and really devoted, etc. Anyway, all this tore me apart inside. Having entered the cult at age 19, I was, by age 30, a seriously confused wreck.


I found myself praying to the one true God from the bottom of my heart to make sense of what had befallen me. I was taking a breather in between a seemingly endless barrage of Maharaji films at an all weekend Ashram Premie Satsang meeting. I could physically feel "Holy Name" or "Practice technique No.3" (as it is now called) pumping through my body. But it actually was of no comfort. I remembered the innocence of my childhood., my aspirations to serve the True God, my sincerity and the bliss and lightness of my world at that time. Now it was all heavy. Heavy indoctrination. Yes, maybe an inner world of peaceful meditation sometimes, but somehow not quite reality, not enough.

The peaceful moments were somehow undermined by the Heaviness, the relentlessness of Maharaji demanding my respect and commitment.The severity of his ashram regime at that time. The pummelling down of my world and the inescapable monotone pleasurelessness of this new world, like the cave to which the Pied Piper led the enchanted children and in which he subsequently entombed them forever. I remained out of a sense of hope and loyalty until the bitter end.


Sure I promised certain things to Maharaji. I promised to never leave the ashram either. We all did. All of us in the 'shram took that vow. We became renunciates for the Lord. It wasn't supposed to be a temporary thing. So what? He changes the cosmic rules of the game? Those promises mean nothing? I don't know. I'd like to hear Maharaji really deal with that one. How is it he could make such a big deal about our ashram commitment, only to close the party a few years later?

I don't care about some makeshift premie's answer to this question. Truth is, none of us know. Only Maharaji and, as we see, he ain't talking. Not yet, in any event.


The fact is there was pressure on every single, unencumbered premie who who wanted to REALLY follow Maharaji to give it all up and move into the ashram. Maharaji himself gave a lot of satsang about how bad it was to sit on the sidelines. Add to him all the mahatmas who went so far as to break up married couples if they thought they could. Not always, not everywhere but often enough.

To truly understand the pressure though you had to experience what it was like to try to LEAVE the ashram. Maharaji himself set the tone with his 'closed' ashram satsangs. Like the one he gave at Kissimee in 1979 or 80. Heavy shit. Much like the 'secret' initiator satsang he gave in those days (ever see the initiator's "confidential" manual with its complete hellfire-and-damnation-if-you-ever-get-into-your-mind trip? I'm not lying. Ask around if you don't believe me). Leaving the ashram was so tough then that premies who did split went through incredible turmoil more often than not. Maybe you didn't have this experience. Maybe, quite frankly, you just never trusted Maharaji enough to really follow him as he wanted.

My last word on the ashram is this: Maharaji did indeed talk out of both sides of his mouth. I perfectly remember all the time he said you don't have to do this, don't have to do that, that Knowledge wasn't a religion, etc. etc. Tell me then why he tried to scare the hell out of anyone trying to leave the ashram then? Fact is, he gave a simple, non-threatening line to people who could only handle that level of involvement. For those who really had the bug, however, his vice clamped down much harder. Don't forget: this was supposedly a path of complete surrender. We surrendered the reigns of our life to him, no? Surrendered our minds and promised to never doubt or question, well, more specifically to leave no room for doubt. Please don't minimise the historical record. This was a VERY consuming trip for those who trusted him. That's all it took, trust in Maharaji. And why not? He was, after all, the Lord.


"Or about how NOW is the time to give up all and move into the ashrams as soon it WILL BE TOO LATE to do any service for him, that time is now!?

I answered his siren call as best I could. WE weren't to train for any careers b/c a) that's the ego's terrain and b) Maharaji was going to so quickly overrun the current world order as we knew it the only real effort worth expending was just telling people he'd arrived. I wasted about eight years doing that. As far as "soon too late" well, he does seem to have backed off his mission a bit. It's not quite the same is it? (Again, please check out my other post to tane).


I haven't suffered from Mr. Ji myself (apart from watching a video out of politeness at the home of one of his adorers in London, which was quite pointless and very boring - just like a Methodist sermon), but my wife and her brother suffered for several years. Her brother joined an 'ashram' in Johannesburg, his father lent to house to the Ji organisation, when they were closed down, they arranged to sell it and pocketed the cash. Her brother learned no useful skills as a result and lives a pretty pathetic existence now supported by his mother.


It seems that us premies who gave our lives to MJ in the ashram are the only ones who are charged up with a real sense of injustice enough to speak out about it.


So I stared intently at Maharaji's picture, asking him the question: 'Can I really trust you?' I put everything I had into that question, and I really wanted a positive answer.

Suddenly there was a sharp 'crack' which startled the audience. The glass covering Maharaji's portrait had split from top to bottom. What did I make of it? I completely ignored the sign I had asked for and went on to waste three years living the ashram life.


When I believed in Maharaji I still wanted to leave the ashram sometimes. Know why I didn't? Because, in my faith, I believed that Maharaji, being omnipresent, was actually there with me even as I had those thoughts and that I didn't want to hurt his feelings. I remember feeling that maybe he was hurt by those premies who did take back their bodies which was kind of how I saw it all. I lived to merge with him, to surrender "jim" and be just a pure devotee. Then, as time went by further and I started feeling more comfortable with my thoughts and feelings again, I started slowly seizing back a bit of my own mental space. I kept a part of me quite selfishly. I reinstated a bit of Jim's private mentality. As I did I started feeling more and more at home with myself again. Lance, do you know what it was like to BE an intense ashramie? We were supposed to want no identity of our own, we were lambs offering ourselves up for slaughter, the sooner the better. Did you ever feel that way? Do you now? How about the premie sitting next to you at the next program, the one who's only heard Maharaji's 'lite' satsang and knows nothing of his earlier apocalyptic, messianic all-or-nothing years?

I dunno.......are there words for the kind of disgust this engenders?

Cheers, nonetheless


I personally find it shocking that you feel Maharaji owes you something for your years of "whatever you did" in the ashram. Or it could be that you are just pursuing a bit of ambulance chasing. I hope that you had at least a few memorable experiences....


Look, you say you've been following this discussion and, for your sake,I hope you're exaggerating. I hope you've just recently tuned in and haven't had a lot of time to give it all much thought before you spoke.Do you know what the ashrams were? Were you really around then? Do you know what moving into an ashram was about and why people did it? Did YOU? I'll tell you in a nutshell.

The ashram was the place you went if you were serious about following Maharaji. It was the place you went to truly surrender your mind for which, as he frankly explained, the Knowledge was like poison. The ashram was Maharaji's trip, 1 million per cent.He wanted to suck as many of us as he could into it and, when people wanted to leave, he gave us threatening satsang as to the consequences.Don't believe me? Ask him for a transcript of some of the "ashram"satsangs he gave in the late '70's before he realised it was hopeless,people were going to leave no matter how much he tried to scare them, so better get with the program and pretend that closing the 'shrams was his idea.


So, what'd we do in the ashram? NOTHING! That was the whole point! If we spun our wheels there forever, dusting the kitchen like some archetypal humble Indian premie, we might have been on the right track.No careers (ego), no relationships (what do you think?), no nothing.Just slavish dedication to one goal: surrendering further and further to Maharaji. See, the reason I mentioned the letter we got from him is that he made it very clear that if we were serious about following him and "realising" the Knowledge, we couldn't trust ourselves? How could we? The "higher" we'd get, the more desperate and hence tricker the mind would get. Don't you know what I'm talking about? Don't you recall the whole question of who had truly surrendered the reigns of their life and who had tried to get them back? Maybe you weren't there,maybe you were. But one thing I'm telling you -- I'm telling you the truth. Plain, simple truth. The path was one of complete devotion.There was no other path, all the rest was the mind and thus bullshit.

Why did we love the mahatmas so much? Because they were supposedly where we wanted to go? Absolute devotion, the ultimate bond with the Lord. Maharaji used to inspire us with the story of the "good" premie who served his Maharaji so selflessly that, when his life was finally exhausted like a burnt match, could honestly say that he barely recalled living that little life at all. The point was that it wasn't the devotee's life to begin with. It was Maharaji's all along and now, by surrendering the life back to Maharaji, the devotee had given the only gift the lowly mortal could ever return to his Lord. That's what the ashram was.


'I hope that you had at least a few memorable experiences.'

So, yes friend, I had a lot of 'memorable moments' including one of my best friends in the ashram hanging himself because he felt that his mind was too full of doubt [see commandments above] to ever love Maharaji properly. Okay, there was a lot of 'fun' too. I sang, played guitar,was very social in a way, loved to give satsang, etc. On the good ship Maharaji, we all enjoyed ourselves to some extent. But there was only one reason we were there and not living our own lives however which way we might: he promised he was taking us somewhere. It was all premised on that. So what of it? Did he change his mind?


Before you start calling ME an asshole consider what I'm reacting to. I'm disgusted, make that DISGUSTED, with premies who feel it's their service to Maharaji to protect him at all costs even if it means twisting the truth as necessary. I lived in the ashram for eight years of my life man! That's no small amount of time to be completely dependent on a guru's vision only to have him years later deny he ever said all that funnelled me into his little fun house to begin with. Who the fuck are you to smirk away that reality?


Care to speculate on how many couples Maharaji broke up? How many people he pressured to give up their vain, ego loves and just serve him? We're talking families with kids too sometimes. Oh, I know, he'd say one thing sometimes and sometimes the opposite. Sometimes he WOULD say that raising a family could be service, but the implication was that it was service only if you couldn't get out of it somehow. He sure didn't encourage unencumbered premies to hook up with each other and ESPECIALLY hated it when ashram premies did the human thing.


There are those who received Knowledge before Maharaji stopped having Ashrams etc. They did not 'surrender the reigns of their lives' in the manner proposed as the 'ideal' by Maharaji at the time. Instead they "fitted Knowledge into their lives" as he put it , meditating occasionally, not making a total sacrifice, turning up occasionally for inspiration, to see their friends etc. They may have had family responsibilities etc. This would have been reason enough to avoid having to seriously consider becoming an Ashram Premie, which was stated clearly by Maharaji as being the path for the truly committed.

These 'undisillusioned' premies form the' hard core' of premies today as I see it. They have few doubts about Maharaji as they have never been disillusioned as a result of making a huge sacrifice only to find that the Ashrams were closed and they were left high and dry, on the street again. Their individual commitment was not so full time. They feel no loss.They don't need to undergo any further soul searching as the lifestyle suits them socially and they are along with many others, happy with things as they are.


Maharaji, on his very own with no family to blame, revived all the religious bullshit for a few years in the late '70's. How do you explain that? He went for truth, then scrambled to deceive again, then back to truth? We were already well on the road to where things are now in 1976 before Maharaji himself scared us all into what I have call the really sick, pathetic religiosity of 1977 through '80, 81. All the marathon 'woe-is-me-I'm-a-real-sinner-'cause-I-thought-of-leaving-the-ashram-and-you-and-getting-a-life-of-my-own-for-a-bit-there' satsang he forced us to repeat hour after hour, day after day. What do you think was happening in the ashram retreats then or, worse, the initiator 'training sessions'? It was all weepy 'we-almost-left-you-and-started-thinking-for-ourselves-but-thankfully-you-saved-us-again' shit. Later, of course, he changed his mind again and ENCOURAGED us to chill a bit and get our little lives happening. The question is, who're you going to scapegoat for that little tour? Joan Apter?


Now think back. 1976. The ashrams are closing, people are untethering themselves from the early DLM traditions and views. Wherever they came from, whoever was responsible for them, we were sick of them. "Let's get real", we said. Satsang became less party line about how great and good Maharaji and Knowledge was and more about our experiences -- good and bad. Now, I'm not saying that was good. I'm not saying one way or the other. But that is what was happening. Until....

Until Essen. That was the DUO directors meeting, remember? Maharaji called all the guys together for a little "refocusing" session. We'd given up devotion, he warned us. It was time to pray. And pray we did. Thus commenced the second run of religiosity in DLM. Endless marathon satsangs, day in and day out in some communities, where we benumbed ourselves with two themes One was the incredible mercy of our Lord, our living Perfect Master, our Satguru Maharaji. The other was our sneeky, deeky minds that had almost cost us our lives of surrender and devotion.

Brother, it was more religious than ever before and brother, it was all his. And thee ain't no one else to pin it on. It was all Maharaji's trip.

Oh sure, I don't doubt that some premie somewhere spread some sensational rumour about Maharaji manifesting in some Baskin and Robbins somewhere. But that was small change compared to the rumours he encouraged about himself. If you don't remember, I'd be happy to go over the old satsangs with you chapter and verse. And yes, we could fight about every passage. But you know, you know.

Put another way: what religious bullshit are your referring to that he was not responsible for? Arti? His. The divine succession trip (x, y, Shri Hans, Maharaji, z, ...)? His. The 'one perfect master in the world at a time' trip? His. Face it, James, this self-satisfied stuff of yours doesn't cut it:

Well, big surprise! It wasn't a religion.It was not dependent on ashrams, beliefs, philosophies, lifestyles, or anything else. We took our expectations and our ideas and tried to mold Knowledge to fit. Another big surprise! It doesn't fit. From what I have seen over the years, the things that don't have anything to do with Knowledge, Maharaji has gotten rid of.

Maharaji only got rid of the ashrams cause everyone was splitting. I mean these were religious, right? Chastity, poverty, obedience. Looks like it. Remember, Maharaji STOKED the ashrams back up in late '76. Why? Who can you blame for that, James. And let me tell you, as recently as 1980 Maharaji was trying to scare the living hell out of anyone even thinking of leaving his holy order. I know, I was there. So who you gonna put that one on? Me? Did I do that? Well, I beg your pardon. And all along I thought I was just trying to follow the truth and the Lord who'd shown it to me. Now, thanks to your rich insight, I realise that I was creating a religion! Holy cow!!


Look, did you ever have any "special" service of any kind? It could have been anything from doing some "direct" service for Maharaji himself at the res or at a program or maybe even just playing tennis with Gurucharanand. "Special" in this context simply means relatively rare and coveted by the group at large. In other words, when Raja Ji came to Ottawa, and we had his holiness and his princess over for dinner at the ashram, the fact that WE ashramies could be there but the regular community could not, well that's special. Just common pecking order stuff. Universal and obvious. Nonetheless we were all completely caught up in it. It was unavoidable.r


The DLM once had 45 ashrams, and information centres in 110 cities in the US. Income from these sources allowed Maharaji to buy an US$80,000 building in Denver, land worth US$400,000 in Malibu (Los Angeles), limousines, racing-cars, and helicopters, while his devotees led simple lives. Incorporated as a nonprofit tax-exempt church in Colorado, it became a a multi-million dollar operation

-Los Angeles Times, 12/1/1979


I'd like to get one thing straight about the comments I saw that certain people expressing their views here are just angry because MJ closed the ashrams and they were more into the ashrams than into MJ. Also, I heard some incredible revisionist historical statements that MJ closed the ashrams because they got in the way, and he was never really into them anyway.

1. First, MJ made it clear in the ashram meetings, and throughout the mahatmas and initiators, that the ashrams were essential to his mission and it was absolutely the worst thing you could do to move out. So, there you were if you wanted to devote your life, which he also required. He also said the ashram premies were closer to him than the non-ashram premies. I was there, I heard it. Quote from Bill Patterson to me circa 1975: 'If you want to dedicate and surrender to Guru Mararaj Ji, that means ashram, there is no other way.' Patterson was also armed with other quotes directly from MJ on the same issue.

2. The above position of MJ was not popular with me, because I personally hated living in the ashrams because, among other things,

1.) You couldn't have sex (actually this is reasons 1-10);
2.) You couldn't own anything and had no freedom to do anything you like;
3.) You had no privacy;
4.) You were cut off from your family;
5.) You couldn't have a career, no matter how much you were interested in having one,
6.) You had to be vulnerable to the whims of several mentally deranged and sadistic Mahatmas and Initiators who came through on a regular basis (Fakiranand (bang bang), Parlokanand (who sexually molested little boys while giving divine knowledge on the side), and others I won't mention except to say they were some of the most miserable and freaked-out people I have ever met, and
7.) You had to live with at least a few generally annoying people. Although I hated living there, I stayed because I wanted to follow his directions and devote myself to him, on every level, not because I was devoted to the ashram.

3. If Maharaj Ji closed the ashrams because they 'got in the way' that implies they were a mistake. And they were a 'mistake' that had profound effects on the lives of many people. Does the Lord of the Universe make mistakes? Has he ever admitted that? Taken in context with what he said at the ashram meetings, it's hard to take it any other way. Or where the ashrams just a phase MJ was going through and a few thousand pesky human beings just happened to get in the way, turning over all their money, damaging any career potential they ever had and damaging their relations with their families? Gee whiz, I guess we just screwed up his plans and he had to close them. Oh, I forgot, MJ is only responsible for the good stuff and everything else is our fault! Right. He can't have it both ways and we shouldn't let him. At least for the record.


I am writing because I moved into in the Ashram in 1978 and stayed until they closed. I really thought it was what Maharaji wanted me to do. I believed Maharaji was my Lord and I followed his instructions completely sincerely and closely.

I am still coming to terms with the painful realisation that it was a TRAGIC waste of my youth. I still feel so let down and disillusioned.

I hoped for years that Maharaji would meet with those who had given their lives to him and offer some conciliatory words at least. I attended programs, watched endless videos, practiced, practiced, practiced.... clung on , always giving Maharaji the benefit of the doubt, hoping that I would feel clearer about things.

Instead of helping me and others to reconcile these problems he has brushed ASIDE the whole matter, along with his so-called LOVE & concern for our LIVES.

His flippant attitude towards my past (along with many other things he has said and done that I can no longer condone ), has made me fundamentally mistrust him and his teaching. He has only got time for sycophants.

I feel that he stole part of my youth that I can never retrieve. I am now making up for lost time and feel essentially much happier for it. However I still carry a huge resentment towards him for persuading me in my innocence to devote my life for years to him in his ashrams. He IMPOSED ON ME a lifestyle which promised much but in reality was EXTREMELY psychologically unhealthy for me.

I am not going to waste my time arguing with blinkered premies who feel differently. I know now that I need to express MY WRATH about this and I agree that an effort should be made to get Maharaji to face it. It was too devastating an experience to move on from without feeling any sense that there should be some retribution. I feel that Maharaji is getting away without having to take responsibility for those words and actions of his that directly caused so much suffering. That 's what this site is all about. If it means offending him or being disrespectful. Well that's tough. He led me a-stray and I will never have those years back.

But does he care? Why should he? HE THINKS HE'S GOT A DIVINE RIGHT TO WRECK A FEW LIVES. Got to break a few eggs to make an omelette, right ?

WRONG. NOT IF IT MEANS PLAYING WITH MY LIFE. I am damned if I am going to sit back and let him be as flippant as he has been about people like me without speaking up. Why are Maharaji and premies incapable of any human sympathy for those who have suffered at Maharaji's hands ? Because they have an unspoken agreement to perpetuate the myth, in their own minds, that any casualties along the way were self-inflicted. Maharaji can do no harm. It must be doubting-Thomas-like premies 'Turning away from Knowledge' and suffering 'The consequences of their actions'.

They believe in the dualism of the Mind versus the Heart. A convenient myth that accords them a simplistic and blinkered view of human existence.


The premies in the ashram were told to remain celibate while M partook in the very pleasures they were to deny themselves.They lived in poverty while he lived in the wealth they provided for him.


Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Jan 8, 1998 at 09:26:35 (EST)
Poster: Read this OP..
Email:
To: Ashrams 2
Subject: Re: Ashrams (Re: Ashrams (Closed))
Message:
I just wanted to mention that if it wasn't for the commitment of ashram premies and today the people that do service, that the rest of the premies who love MJ, and meditate, couldn't fuel his plane (let alone pay for one) there wouldn't be any aspirants for him to give knowledge to, and the wonderful events that premies attend to enjoy the music and being with him just wouldn't happen. It's the zealous full time devotion of a very few that makes it possible. And when those people have something to say about that time in their life, maybe people should listen. And if there is anger maybe there's a reason!


' You should not expect any response to any of your questions unless you treat him with the respect he deserves.' -L.Goss

Mr Heller is evidently going through a lot of anger and has obviously lost his respect for the time being. Am I to understand that his disrespectful attitude invalidates his questions?

I gather that his lack of respect is partly because he feels that the sincere sacrifice he made (8 years in an ashram ) was in vain. Surely he deserves some respect himself for the time he committed to understanding 'The greatest gift' . How much respect is Maharaji due from people that feel that it hasn't necessarily been earned ?


If you believe that he is your Lord, then you become his willing slave. You completely dedicate your life to him. In the course of serving him, of dedicating your life to him, you provide his means of support and income. That's really what's at the core of it. It's sad, because there's no provision being made for these people.

There are so many of them in his ashrams. That word is roughly equivalent to the English word 'monastery'. He has a number of people living in them in a state of poverty, chastity and obedience. These people give all of their fruit of their labour to him.

Some of them are probably under the impression that he is using it to spread his knowledge, to spread the practice of meditation and the means of inner peace to the people of the world. In fact, that's really not what happens. Most of the money just goes to support him in his lifestyle.

(written in the 1970's)


This was also the period when GMJ said he was looking at land in Florida for a 'divine city' or something similar (at least he said that at an ashram meeting in 1980 at the Kissimee swamp). This set off alarms somewhere in my brain and I had images of the paranoia that could develop there, but I guess that never went anywhere; I think GMJ spent all the money on himself and there was never anything left to buy the land with, thank god.


Brian MacDermott is on the security roster. His wife is the head of ushering at large events. He is still nuttier than a fruitcake and incredibly funny. He is much in demand as a speaker at service meetings because he always lightens the mood.
On a different note, I ran into him last year when he was being torn down by an ex-ashram premie who was in the 'married ashram' at the time Brian was telling parents to give their children to the care of nannies and go out and do full time service. This woman had spent about two months without her infant in an attempt to follow Brian's directive at that time, and she finally gave up, got her child back, and stayed home with the baby.

Brian was a bundle of apologies about how stupid he'd been in those days. How uncaring and insensitive.


There were I don't know how many incarnations of Divine Light Mission that got formed, dissolved and re-formed. There was the ashram experiment and to my understanding, as soon as it proved to be uncomfortable or counter-productive for people, Maharaji himself disbanded it.


I didn't know that the ashram was an 'experiment' (failed, by the way). Don't you think GMJ had an obligation to let people know that, prior to encouraging their (costly) involvement in something that was just an 'experiment'?


I also wondered if the caste system you describe: (GMJ/mahatma/initiator/residence premie/ashram/rich premie/single premie/married-with-children-premie)was also intentional on GMJ's part. Is that what he came here to give us, a little bit of the India caste system right here in America?


I did see Heaven's Gate news shots & videos. They reminded me so much of DLM ashram's that I went out to search the net for info. on my old cult,DLM. The inexplicable conviction of those folks was scary. I also related to the barracks style of housing. Ashrams had away of being so attractive on the outside but on the inside, after they schmoozed you in it was basic training tactics 24hrs. I was a renegade premie of sorts. and those brothers & sisters that I lived with were very close.


I kept practising Knowledge always looking on the bright side and giving Maharaji the benefit of the doubt .

Because, in the ashram , we were supposed to largely sever our family ties, I ,as an adult, never really got to know my dear, kind old dad. This I now resent.


It still seems rather mean to prescribe a lifetime of celibacy and teetotalism to ones followers.( As Maharaji did in the case of Ashram premies.) and then to secretly live the kind of lifestyle that would not be out of place in a Jackie Collins novel.


I grant that Tej (eshwaranand) was very realized then. This was when he stayed with us in Vancouver for a while and we really got to know him. He moved all the ashramies out of one house (we had two side by side) and secretly flew his girlfriend from Philly in. He was also fucking a couple of local premies too. One started giving 'star' satsang. You know she was centered out as someone who had actually realized the Knowledge and saw Maharaji's face everywhere. And that was just what Tejeshwaranand was able to do. Ah memories, memories. Now why doesn't Maharaji put out a Mahatma commemorative coin series? Who wouldn't buy a few Gurucharand's? But I digress.


Later (1977-78?) I was personally and privately interviewed by him (after his promotion to Chief Officer for Ashram recruitment) in order to qualify for becoming a Kosher Ashram premie.

Thus the guy (David Smith) has some part in my history of incarceration in various of the 'residencies for the forlorn' that Maharaji had established across many towns and nations.


Thank you, I know it was not just me. In addition to the 'henchmen' label, which fits, it appeared to many of us that Smith had a strong sadistic streak in him that could show itself on the especially vulnerable ( i.e. those under his control, the most vulnerable of the ashram premies, especially during his great ashram inquisition in 1981 when Maharaj Ji apparently told him to 'clean up the ashrams.')

This was troubling to me, especially when he told me that he truly believed that he was completely controlled by Guru Maharaj Ji and that anything that came into his head he should just do because it was divinely inspired (YIKES!). Even the other initiators used to comment that he needed professional psychiatric help.


When I was living in the ashram in the mid-70s DLM sent an ashram premie, who was having some emotional problems, to where I was living and I was his roommate. [Believe it or not, I was considered a very stable, together ashram premie, and so I was often assigned to room with people who were particularly freaked out.] Anyway, this guy was very uptight and rigid. He meditated for about five hours a day, never missed arti or satsang, and did whatever service he was told to do.

He loved Guru Maharaj Ji immensely and wanted to dedicate his entire life to him. Anyway, after a while he began to open up to me a little and I learned something about him. He told me that he was really having trouble with sexual desires and he had to be very careful because he might slip up on his celibacy vows.

Anyway, one day I came into the bathroom and found that he was trying to castrate himself with a razor; he said he was doing it because he just couldn't deal with the sexual desires that his mind was throwing at him. I was able to stop him before he did much damage, and after some medical attention, he seemed okay.

I tried to argue that he needed professional psychiatric help, but the line I got from the powers that be and the mahatmas was that satsang, service and meditation were the solution to absolutely everything. [That may sound strange to you know, but that was definitely the prevailing view then, and that is what GMJ was saying.] Sometime after that, he slapped a sister in the ashram for talking and laughing in the satsang hall, which was not allowed. [I can't remember whose agya that was.] I don't think he hurt her, but everyone could see he was unravelling.

Anyway, after the slap incident, the powers that be in the ashram called the police and had him arrested, and he was committed to a local mental facility. I remember visiting him there. It was a true snake pit. He had soiled his clothes and he had been given drugs such that he wasn't sure who I was. Eventually, he was sent to go live with his father.

Once later I called his father who told me that a few years earlier, this guy had turned over his trust funds and all his other money and possessions to Guru Maharaj Ji and he was just a little incredulous that after the cult got what they wanted from this guy, and he became too much trouble, they just abandoned him.

It was really hard for me. I couldn't reconcile how someone who had devoted their entire life to the Lord of the Universe, even if we was a little strange, could be abandoned by the Lord of the Universe, especially when he was one of the most vulnerable. I guess that was one of the first indications to me that Guru Maharaj Ji did not know or care about what was happening to the people who were slaving away for him and who sincerely gave themselves to him. No matter how hard I meditated and did service, I never lost that feeling entirely. I wonder what they guy is doing now?


I didn't intend to blame Guru Maharaj Ji for all the insensitive and stupid things that his organization, his mahatmas and administrators did to this poor ashram brother or to other people who were in Divine Light Mission. That would be illogical and unfair. But Guru Maharaj Ji is responsible to the extent he set up the whole situation where he was asking for total devotion and surrender and where there were ashrams in the first place, making people vulnerable to the kind of stuff that went on in them.

Sure there was valuable stuff, but there was also destructive stuff, as I and others have mentioned here. If that brother was not trying to surrender and devote his life to Guru Maharaj Ji, which Guru Mahararj Ji had asked him to do, he never would have been there trying to stifle his sexual desires with a razor blade. Maybe he would have done something destructive elsewhere, who knows, but that doesn't change the fact that he was depending on GMJ to take care of him. Maybe that was a ridiculous thing to do, and in the end it turned out to be a ridiculous and stupid thing to do, but that doesn't mean that Guru Maharaj Ji does not share some ultimate responsibility for putting himself out there as this brother's lord and master.

True, it doesn't let his other mindless, heartless, devotees off the hook either, but he remains at least somewhat ultimately responsible nonetheless.


I just can't resent the fact that my clothes were sold off while I was in the ashram. I never minded sleeping on the floor (in the residence I used to sleep behind the couch so that I could jump up if I heard Maharaji walking down the stairs). I didn't resent living on white rice and leftover potato chips and baskin robbins, or brown rice and lentils - depending on where I was living at the time.

The experiences I had were always positive. Perhaps I am a carryover from another century, another place and time. Or maybe my years on the Lower East Side had already jaded my ideas of what a normal living situation should look like that having any semblance of middle class living would have seemed odd to me.

As usual, I've gone on too long, and gone off the subject. I just wanted to let you know that there are some of us who went through the whole trip and came out of it whole and even appreciating it.


I just can't resent the fact that my clothes were sold off while I was in the ashram. I never minded sleeping on the floor (in the residence I used to sleep behind the couch so that I could jump up if I heard Maharaji walking down the stairs). I didn't resent living on white rice and leftover potato chips and baskin robbins, or brown rice and lentils - depending on where I was living at the time. -

No, you big silly. Nor did I. Those sort of things pale into insignificance for me. My gripes are that I dedicated my entire time to an incredibly boring and delusive life to which I was really unsuited. I never saw my family (until my Dad's death) , I helped to peddle and promote Maharaji as the Master. Gave him all my earnings etc. etc.(that bothered me morally when I saw where the money went ) Basically I learned the hard way. If MJ hadn't come along I would have been spared the madness of his authoritarian regime and could have concentrated on some other enjoyable pursuits in life. I didn't enjoy the Ashram. But I felt pressured by him to be there. If it had just been Knowledge and meditation I would have definitely been grateful. I feel I am repeating myself. I have done what you asked and reread your posts. Do me a favour and read my story in the Journey's section entitled 'Viewpoint' if you haven't already. I think I have expressed myself better there.

The experiences I had were always positive. Perhaps I am a carryover from another century, another place and time. Or maybe my years on the Lower East Side had already jaded my ideas of what a normal living situation should look like that having any semblance of middle class living would have seemed odd to me. As usual, I've gone on too long, and gone off the subject. I just wanted to let you know that there are some of us who went through the whole trip and came out of it whole and even appreciating it. -

Well my experiences were honestly not all positive. Frankly I am baffled how any premie can honestly suggest that it has been an entirely positive experience. It sounds like wishful thinking to me. I know a number of really blatantly screwed up old premies who tiresomely insist that Knowledge and MJ keep them in great shape. They are clearly not telling the truth, believe me. Maybe you are like them. Maybe not.


As for 'pressured to leave your family' - this is what really does set me off. Pressured by WHOM? -

David Smith for one! He had MJ's blessings didn't he??I don't think that you can ever have been to any of MJ's latter day ashram premie satsangs... at least not the one's I went to. You might not get so 'set off' about my complaint if you had .


Actually, the premise of my piece is that my relationships with my siblings, especially Erika, was very much harmed for a decade by her involvement with Maharaji--but that the post-1982 loosening/ devolution/ de-ashramification/ de-Hinduification of Mahraji's presentation and operation was a benign transformation. From my perspective, it allowed me to have my siblings (especially my sister) back in the land of the living. They stopped proselytising me. And for more than a dozen years now there has been NO tension over Maharaji. I don't know of any other 'cult' leader who willingly loosened the reins on his followers in this way--who, it can be argued, transformed his thing from a true cult to a more reasonable, sustainable, meditation-based religious community.

- (Journalist for the New Yorker)


When I transferred to the Boston ashram in 1976, X (real name deleted )was the community coordinator. He announced a couple of days after I got there that he was leaving the ashram and getting married. Turns out he got one of the community premies pregnant and since GMJ was adamantly opposed to abortion, he had a sort of shotgun situation on his hands. Of course, about a year or so later, when GMJ was demanding total surrender once again after the 1976 loosening, X abandoned his wife and kid and moved back into the ashram, ending up in Miami meeting with GMJ to be his steward. I hope he eventually went back to his wife and kid. But I digress.


I was a happy, well-balanced, talented, educated, loving and sincere child who appreciated the gift of life that I had been given, and humbly aspired to fulfil my purpose through serving Maharaji who I truly believed would care for me as my Master.

Maharaji then proceeded to convince and coerce me, at a vulnerable time in my life, with the medieval religion that he preached. He then encarcerated me in his ashram for years and took everything I had to offer materially and spiritually. My life was, and remains, my most precious gift and I never needed Maharaji or anyone else to remind me. I knew that from my childhood without any third party claiming to be the source of my inspiration or preaching to me about what I gratitude I owed them.

I had so much to give in my life.Is it surprising that I felt disillusioned when at age 25 I found myself without a job or career,no family, my father dead, Maharaji laughing all the way to the bank, and feeling all the frustration of a having had my life's potential wasted? Yet there I was still polishing his brothers Lambourghini for the nth time.

Yes, I carried on practising Maharaji's prescription to the letter, giving him the benefit of the doubt. Yes I have seen him all over the world many many times. I have been a fully paid up member of the Maharaji travel club.

Since leaving the ashram I have been luckier than some. I have had the common sense and guts (apparently lacking in many premies) to be mercilessly conscientious and to look in the mirror to see what has truly become of my life. It has been enormously hard to face the reality, shake off the complacency and the anaesthetic denial and continue with hope and trust in Life. My suspicions and conclusions about the reality of Maharaji and the whole Guru, Master business have come gradually, over many years, as a result of using my common sense and discrimination whilst practising Maharaji's prescription to the letter with good faith.

Since leaving the ashram many premies have suffered terrible difficulties in trying to get going on their own. I have carved out for myself and my newly acquired family, what some would consider to be an enviable career and lifestyle. But I will always be acutely aware of how much more I could have achieved had I not been for so long sidetracked by the hypnotic delusions put upon me by Maharaji's world.


I feel that because I married an ashram premie as soon as the ashram's were closed in '82 that in a sense we created our own ashram life of devotion and loving MJ not each other. I look forward to the day where the fallout will be over.


'So all ashram residents, and it's working out that most of the community for the same reasons, has to ask for money from family and friends. So please, I would very much appreciate it if you can send me whatever you can. Well I've written a fairly long letter now and the typing's getting really scattered.

So much love to you both, X

P.S. You should pick up the most recent 'And it is Divine.' It's fantastic.

- X (as a keen young premie)


To hell with people like me, X, Y and others who were involved in the ashram/initiator experiment (as Z puts it) which he tried for awhile until it became clear he wouldn't be able to pull it off. He didn't give a shit how people like us might have gotten chewed up in the process.

He doesn't even feel the need to address that issue, and hasn't to my knowledge.


The end of the ashrams in the UK, for example, coincided with a change in perspective in many ways both - much had moved on around us from the early 70's. It was uncomfortable even hurtful, but timely and liberating, really, I thought. My main difficulty was and is, to a degree, in not saying goodbye - to the people and the beliefs .... the lack of closure that one of the previous correspondents talked of. I find this discussion helpful and welcome in that respect and am grateful to the others for their comments and views which are helping me, for one, to understand, accept and appreciate those times.


The Crusades etc. may not have occurred,(at least not in the name of Christ )or any other religious leader. Followers of Applewhite read Christ's actually (so-called) spoken words ( not accounts from others.) only. They read these over and over. One could say they were devote Christians in the early years. But one man's power tore people from their families (not unlike ashram premies from theirs) controlled their lives and then led them to their death. They weren't forced. They were free to leave at any time. Their loyalty and devotion was the reason they stayed. They sincerely trusted Do to be the incarnation of a Great teacher and they would have seen Maharaji as a cult leader I'm sure.

So where do we draw the line? Families I know of ashram premies still suffer from those lost years. If a group commits suicide is it then ok to call it a cult? If only individuals commit suicide or have nervous breakdowns, then it's not? If harm and suffering occurs for some premies and not for others, then it isn't a cult?


Anyway, in 1981, Mr. Smith was in charge of the western region of the U.S. for GMJ, including all the initiators, ashrams, businesses and communities. In one of his meetings with Guru Maharaj Ji, apparently GMJ was really pisssed off about the ashrams and gave the order to clean up the ashrams. I don't know if Maharaj Ji ever said what that was supposed to entail, and in other regions it happened quite differently, but Mr. Smith, because he believed that whatever came into his head was god talking, decided to use the community I was living in as his first target and went on a rampage that would put the Spanish Inquisition to shame. To him, his orders meant scaring and terrorizing and ashram premies with a lot of psychological abuse, getting ashram premies to rat on each other about who might or might not have a special friend (not allowed), who might be doing terrible things like reading books (not allowed), have a job in the world that he or she was too into (not allowed) having too many possessions (he actually went through the ashram premies' closets and threw away clothes if he thought somebody had too many), didn't behave correctly (he told one premie who had some psychological problems that he was a robot and had to change while at the same time terrifying him into being more of a robot than he ever was before). He had these interrogation meetings with individuals and groups that were terribly disrespectful and abusive. He gave satsang to the ashrams in which he used fuck and other abusive language that I had never heard in satsang before. It was unbelievable heavy and devoid of anything but fear. It was also clear that there was no correct way to be.

Whatever you did made you open to his attack, his actions and statements could be completely contradictory, because, apparently, attacking was his purpose. It was also clear to me and others that David really ENJOYED the pain he was causing. He really ENJOYED abusing people. That was the terrifying part to me. It was abusive because he always held over the premies head that he would throw them out of the ashram, or send them to some remote community if they didn't conform to some idea he had in his head about the way you were supposed to be. Superimpose this on the many ashram satsangs we had attended with GMJ in which he said that moving out of the ashram was the absolutely worst thing you could do and basically that it was more or less required for total dedication, which was also required. I think the premies also mostly believed and had faith in GMJ's hierarchy that the GMJ was in control and would protect them. Also, by and large, these were not spaced out ashram premies. They lived by the schedule, did S,S & M (funny sound to that) every day and did what they were told. Maharaj Ji was absolutely everything to them.

Even some of the initiators said Smith needed professional psychiatric help. He also, when confronted, admitted to me that he had one beaten up some girl when he was younger, almost admitting the abusive streak in him. Anyway, I saw some of the people I had lived with for a long time completely change from being fairly open, happy people to being sullen and depressed. A few of them opened up to me somewhat and talked about how terrible they felt, and the terrible fear that they didn't measure up again, blaming themselves for being worthless slugs because obviously this was all part of GMJ's plan. I think it was the feeling of wanting to get out of the concentration camp Mr. Smith was running, while at the same time your devotion to GMJ kept you there. It was a terrible, claustrophobic, imprisoned feeling. And it shook my faith in GMJ to the core. There was absolutely no love in what he did. There was absolutely no human compassion for people as individuals. All he saw was the marching orders from GMJ and his interpretation of them. It smelled of paranoia and fear. And he was basically a big jerk.

You also have to also understand that the ashram premies were especially vulnerable to this type of abuse. They were mostly pretty simple types, without a lot going for them, and they literally had NOTHING besides their dedication to GMJ and trying to be more surrendered. So, here comes Mr David Smith with the sensitivity of a Mack Truck to clean up whatever it was they were doing. I don't think I ever saw anything quite like it in DLM, even among the more insane Mahatmas.

I think the reaction was so negative to what he did, however, that I don't think he tried it anywhere else on a grand scale. Although I've heard stories about how he attacked individuals. I, at least, made sure what he did was well known outside the region, and I know others confronted him about it. Anyway, about a year later Mr. Smith came back to our fair community and sort of apologized to the ashram residents for what he did, but, when confronted, he used the old premie line that it was what was necessary and all perfect and it needed to happen. So, he basically spoke out of both sides of his mouth. I could never stand the sight of the guy after that.


I also remember something else. David actually carried around a little black book in which he kept notes about the ashram premies.


As has been documented on this site numerous times, I would suggest that the ashram premies, the initiators, and those who did service in places like DECA in building the Boeing 707, suffered the most in Guru Maharaj Ji's cult, probably because they gave up the most, in terms of personal freedom, material possessions, career and educational opportunities, family relationships, and years of their lives (and many, including myself, think those years were both precious and wasted). This does not include psychological damage and, many would argue, spiritual damage, which, while very real, are harder to measure and much more subjective.

There seems to be a widespread revisionist belief around among current cult members that people who were part of these institutions did so on a completely voluntary basis and that Guru Maharaj Ji really didn't care whether you lived in the ashram or became an initiator or not. But as those who were there can testify, that is utter bullshit.

As an example of how people were coerced into the ashram, take events in 1979 when I was community coordinator in Washington DC. Nearly the entire time I was there the resident initiator was Randy Prouty, and part of the time he was joined by Alan Imbarrato (god, was HE ever an idiot!). Randy continuously reported that it was GMJ's wish that everyone who could do so should fully dedicate by moving into the ashram. He, and I'm sorry to say with my assistance, embarked on a program to harass every available premie in the community to make that commitment.

DC was probably an unusual community in the sense that many of the premies were very together, with successful careers in government, business and the professions. [Dr. John Horton, for example was from DC.] The ashram premies were by and large the exact opposite -- a pretty untogether, but dedicated bunch. I think many of the together community premies could not relate to the weirdness of the ashrams. Anyhow, Randy set up meetings with all the premies in the community who weren't married, or who were married but didn't have kids and basically inspired (read, harrassed) them to make the commitment to the ashram. We also held pre-ashram meetings for these people as well. Randy related over and over things GMJ had said to him about the importance of total surrender through the ashram. As another incentive, anyone who began going to the pre-ashram meetings were allowed by GMJ to go to the ashram meetings he held at almost every festival. And we know the kinds of stuff GMJ said, now don't we? The pressure on these people was very intense and Randy said it was coming directly from GMJ.

Many of those people did move into the ashram and many of them ended up giving up their marriages and careers and going to Miami to work on the plane, into national headquarters and a number stayed in the community. I know several who feel pretty ripped off by that experience, and I must say I don't feel so great that I might have contributed to their problems. I know the ashrams only lasted about 5 years after that, but I just want the record to be clear about how much Maharaj Ji was into the ashrams being there, how much people were harassed into moving in to them by GMJ's henchmen, at his direction, and that to premies who really wanted to surrender in the way GMJ asked, there really was no choice when it came to that commitment. It is also important to remember how much people gave up to be there. Some people may say it was a great experience, but many people feel they were really ripped off. I would just like to say again, that unlike what Mili says,it wasn't just some choice people made to be there, there really was coercion both to move in and to stay there.

It is also infuriating to me, as I have also said before, that after the premie moved into the ashram, like most other premies, Maharaj Ji had virtually no interest in them, apparently didn't give a shit what happened to them, and then one day just ended the ashrams entirely, apparently without explanation, after people had given years of their lives to be there.


Some people who received knowledge in the 70s were apparently asked to fill out a form listing their financial assets, and some weren't. Who here was and wasn't solicited thusly?

- X (Journalist foy The New Yorker)

X, I think those forms were definitely in the 70s. I filled one out and I think most of the ashram residents were asked to do so, but I don't know how extensive it was. When I was working at national headquarters I saw the files of completed forms. I recall the form asked not only about your assets, but whether you expected an inheritance and some stuff about your parents' assets. I recall filling out the form and describing my father's net worth.

I don't think those questionnaires were given to just anyone who received knowledge...I think they were only given to the ashram residents, and I don't know how many of them actually got them. I filled out mine when I was in Miami, and that was 1979-1980 or so. By that time, I am not aware that anything was actually done with them. At that time, the focus was on immediate cash, mostly for plane project, rather than money coming in from inheritance down the road.


In the early years, DLM got tax exempt status as a religion such that people who donated could deduct it from their taxes. [In fact, in relation to some of the jobs I had while living in the ashram, I recall we were instructed to fill out our withholding (W-4) forms to have NOTHING withheld for federal income taxes, because we were considered monastics with no income. When I moved out of the ashram briefly in 1976, I had to actually had to pay taxes for a period of time while I was in the ashram and after the tax exempt status was lost.] Around 1976 or 77, the IRS eliminated the tax exempt status of DLM. Of course, donations to GMJ directly were never tax deductible.

Premies were also encouraged to send money directly to Guru Maharaj Ji. There was a p.o. box in Malibu to send the money to. Since there was no longer any tax advantage to contribute to DLM and since a lot of the premies sort of disliked DLM anyway, and were being told to devote entirely to GMJ, I suspect more and more money went directly to GMJ. I know that was the case with me. When I was ashram housefather and handled the finances, we made the 10% donations to DLM, but we sent more money directly to the GMJ post office box. The rest of the money went to basic food/living and going to festivals, which was a MAJOR expense and often put us heavily in debt. The heavy debt of the ashrams was sort of an ongoing joke in DLM. DLM was also usually short of funds.


 

At least after 1976, if you had a debt you were NOT allowed to move into the ashram -- Just ask David Smith if you don't believe me. You HAD to be at least at break-even. It's true that there was an attempt to keep DLM and Maharaj Ji finances separate, but it's not true that that happened. For example, in fundraising for the plane, millions of dollars of it went through DLM, illegally and we are talking 1980 and not 1971. The main reason DLM was abolished was because the IRS was hot on GMJ's tail.


Just like a lot of seminaries, the brothers ashrams were full of repressed gay men. I won't go into the details, but it is sad that a number of them, when the ashrams closed, were really unprepared to deal with negotiating gay safe-sex life in the era of AIDs and a couple of them I had lived with died from AIDS within a couple of years after the ashrams were closed.


One time right after a festival, where there was darshan, I walked into the satsang hall and saw the community coordinator getting a blow job from one of the ashram sisters. And do you know what? That sister got sent away to a remote reform-school ashram (San Antonio) because she was confused whereas the supposedly-celibate community coordinator$stayed right where was.


I remember getting the letter after the guy shot up the girls in the Tallahassee ashram (no more inner agya!). And I remember the one after Mata Ji and Bal Bhagwan Ji split (no more holy family agya!)


I saw how other premies in the ashram were being abused by some of the people Guru Maharaj Ji had put in charge of them and that made me doubt that GMJ was really protecting his premies as I believed he was. It seems I could see their suffering, at least to some extent, even while I was at the same time unable to see my own.


My husband was carried out of the ashram physically in the 70's because he burnt out so badly. He went to a non premie's farm for a few weeks to recover. He discovered life was empty without the realm of knowledge and the master. He rationalized all the abuse he experienced and witnessed as having nothing to do with MJ, and went back to live in the ashram until it closed in '82. When faced with Mishler's interview, he remarked to it as only rumour. When confronted with the possibility of who he once called,' Lord of the Universe' being drunk, he replied it only made it more real for him...Maharaji's humanity.


At one of those huge, huge, ashrams, with no furniture that I lived in Anne Johnston also hosted an event. This was a formal dinner and the ashram brothers were the waiters. We wore white shirts and ties and crisp white aprons that the ashram sisters had ironed. We served cheese pie (glorified macaroni and cheese), salad and herbal tea, and healthy cookies that tasted like hockey pucks for desert. A premie sister sang a sweet devotional song. Then we had introductory satsang for our parents and co-workers. Even introductory satsang back then mentioned, in front of a big altar with GMJ's huge (2'x3') picture on it framed in gold, that he was the perfect master of our time and that he was the equivalent of Jesus, Buddha and Krishna. We said this with big smiles on our faces. Stupid? yes. Condescending? yes. But it made us feel like we could bend the rules and sit in chairs and act cordial and not treat our parents like the evil attachments we had all been taught they were.


Do any of you premies remember the private satsang that he gave to ashram premies at a program held in Kissamee florida where he clearly said (I created you!), it seemed like the sermon on the mount that day!


Yeah I was there. No I don't remember it verbatim. I just recall that he made it far too clear that there was no turning back in Maharaji's world. Leaving the ashram was particularly treacherous particularly treacherous. There was nothing else 'out there' for us but maya. Besides, we shouldn't feel that bad, soon the whole world would be an ashram (i.e. they'd all be suffering alongside us).

The 'turn you all blue and make you float' bit was from the satsang he gave from the main stage. That's when he threatened to have Raja Ji and his WPC tour the future festival site ( the permanent one we'd all live on, but NOT in Guyana) and rassal up stragglers who were 'delaying attending satsang.' That was the festival everyone started splitting and we had do to a major talk-down at the gate to keep them there. After all, what were we going to do with all the yogurt?


The ashram satsang at Kissimmee. I actually remember attending two of them. But the one you are referring to was the same one where he not only said he created us, but he also said we didn't have the right to even look at him, that moving out of the ashram was the worst thing you could do; he said it was moving into a cesspool, and that he was going to take us out of the world entirely by buying land in Florida where we would all live. Fortunately for all of us, that didn't happen, hence we did not end up like Jonestown.


I thought you were my Lord. I gave up University so I could spend time at the palace of peace in London to get knowledge, and played the famous Mahatma game of come to coventry or go to leicester. I was a sad and naiive soul . I believed you. I told my fiance that once I got knowledge I'd have to move into an ashram and effectively ended that relationship. I was broke and followed you around the world.. I made a place in my heart for you .


That reminds me, do you recall at one point that GMJ changed the rules for formal meditation and said we should begin meditating TWO hours in the morning and TWO hours in the evening instead of just one hour each time, in addition to trying to meditate the other 20 hours of the day? That was also the period when we were always doing all-night meditations. In the ashrams, we used to do all-day Sunday meditations all the time. Christ, talk about turning meditation into drudgery. What was THAT about, and why did GMJ get on that kick? Did he have any idea what he was doing? According to Mishler, he never did meditation himself, so he probably didn't know what he was talking about anyway.


When I was in Maharaji s ashram I was one of the few people there who didn't t have aspirations or ambitions to be an instructor. I thought that if I was really sincere then such Service would automatically manifest at the right time. I was subsequently more and more surprised to notice that, without any doubt whatsoever, the effective principle to escape the drudgery of ashram life and to be elevated into the blessed ranks of Instructors, seemed to be quite the opposite. ie. Those who most loudly advertised their desire to serve MJ and put themselves forward the most brazenly were the ones who caught the attention of MJ. Grace was an imaginary factor and my ideas of being known to MJ whilst remaining silent and humbly insignificant only served to increase the speed at which I sunk into the darkest and most dismal and isolated depths of obscurity and anonymity .Thus, year in and year out, I rotted away in various Ashrams which Maharaji neither knew of or gave two hoots about.


What if M had kept his trip together a bit better and the dream hadn't died so quickly? What if we still believed in M and did so til the end? What if the ashrams hadn't fallen apart and we got old there? What if you died thinking that M was God? Dedicated your whole life, gave up the world -- so, so literally -- for him? Would it matter?

I guess what I'm asking is if it mattered that it was all fake, so long as you were 'happy'? Interesting question, don't you think?

Are there such things as 'meaningful' lives in North Korea?


If you ignored most of what Maharaj Ji said over the years, if you didn't try to keep from questioning him and his teachings and instead followed your own better judgment, if you didn't try to surrender your life to him as he demanded, and if you just took what you felt like taking and ignored the rest, well, if you did that, then the Maharaj Ji cult probably didn't cost you very much. But I also have a hard time seeing how you could have been his devotee is you just ignored what he was asking of you.

I also have no doubt that he doesn't say most of that stuff anymore because he can't get away with it. But what was all that surrender ashram don't doubt stuff about them, Hmmm? Was it just a phase he was going through and we were just too stupid to see it as just that? I also think it's offensive to people who sincerely tried to follow Maharaj Ji when current premies say we were just too stupid in listening to and believing what GMJ told us to do, and that we were defective in not, as you say, exercising [our] powers of diligence and questioning and that we abdicated our common sense. That's both offensive and condescending, and, if you ask me, evidence that perhaps someone besides some ex-premies are a little deficient in the common sense area.


Guru Maharaj Ji screwed up big time when he demanded total commitment and surrender (X please do not conveniently forget surrender) which he demanded both in and outside of his ashram satsangs, such that only some of his followers made it through. Either it was a BIG mistake, or he was intentionally setting up some kind of spiritual obstacle course of his own making. God, who needs that?

The spiritual path is hard enough without your own master and guide either screwing up or intentionally making it so large numbers of his followers will split and feel highly ripped off when he changes his tune entirely and dismisses both his own teachings of surrender and devotion, and with it the personal experiences and efforts of a large number of his devotees to do what he told them to do. If it was a mistake (and it certainly was in hindsight), why don't you and he just admit it? It certainly would clear the air for a lot of people including, I would imagine, people who continue to consider themselves his devotees but still wonder about that as well.

You see, X, the fact that he doesn't demand total commitment and surrender anymore is feeble solace and a tacit admission of a big booboo that had profound effects on the lives of many people. He really should take at least SOME responsibility, shouldn't he?


Yes, I remember when Guru Maharaj Ji used to say that receiving knowledge would not change your religion. (laugh) He then proceeded to denigrate religions as the empty traditions of dead perfect masters. Can you imagine the ashram premie after arti and meditation heading off to the local catholic church for mass?


In 1974, after three years in the ashram, I was transferred to the Boston ashram.I believe David Smith was the 'general secretary' at the time. I couldn't believe how rigid and uptight he was, and as a result, everyone else. It was like a prison. Perhaps I should be grateful, it motivated me to move out.


I have been thinking about exactly what my gripe is. It is not that MJ drinks , smokes, or copulates with Yaks. That is not my problem. It is not that he should be run out of town for evading tax or having 500 aeroplanes. It is not, essentially, his behaviour.

My gripe is that by doing what he said and following him extremely carefully, I was led into particularly unpleasant circumstances and influences. Namely the Ashram. It really was for me the most insufferably boring, heartless and disappointing way to have 'mis-spent' my youth; and my loyalty to him, which was unquestionable, was not reciprocated or appreciated by him at all,as far as I know. I lost out. Even my meditation suffered in the ashram - We were so pushed to raise money etc. that I lived a pleasureless existence as, effectively, an unpaid servant. My trust in him then started to gradually dwindle until now I find myself quite shocked that he feels no human sympathy or understanding of my plight. Obviously I am not alone in that sadness and anger. Those years I dedicated to him are gone forever.

What I am trying to say is that I feel that I made a huge sacrifice, personally, to follow Maharaji and that that was in vain and was misguided.While those around him now naughtily sip their ciders at his parties and feel blessed to be a part of his ongoing celebrations, I am elsewhere. I am not going to see him because his influence certainly suppressed my intelligence, and my growth. I was in danger of becoming a middle-aged fake. By daring to question the unquestionable, by daring to seek the truth again with a brave heart, I am finally moving on. Will he move on too?

If you are there Maharaji, spare a kind thought for us, who certainly have been your real followers. That is why we speak out here..hoping indeed that you will hear of our pain and will maybe have some respect for our experiences and concern for the effect that you have had on us. Oh yes. We are still here. We will not go away.


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Date: Thurs, Jan 8, 1998 at 09:50:08 (EST)
Poster: Mr Ex
Email:
To: OP
Subject: Re: Ashrams (Closed)
Message:
I now have a problem with my damn BS logic : >2/ Elan Vital/ex-DLM is still a cult and officially considered as such : are you >forgetting EV’ charity status? In the US, in UK, in India and likely some other >countries. 1/ If EV is a cult, Mr PP Rawat is obviously a cult leader. This very likely explains the darshan/pranam/toe-kissing ceremony which is an essential part of m’s knowledge _ as the cult leader himself stated (for instance in his Taiwan conference of September 1997). Shall I recall what he said on that precise occasion? Maybe someone could post the exact quote from the video? This also explains why a video like the 1st one of the last Long Beach event serie starts with a devotional song by Ms Dayalata Rawat. Then : why should EV representative and PR staff deny this fact. Why do they try to present Mr Rawat as a ‘meditation’ teacher? 2/ If EV is not a cult. How come this organization is a registered cult in some countries (like US, UK, India)? If this is true, then EV should pay his taxes. OOOOOooooooooooooooooooops this is a big problem .............. If so, what does this darshan/pranam/toe-kissing ceremony mean? How come that devotional songs are part of these videos? 3/ Is there another alternative? Please don’t tell me I’m in my ‘mind’ ............. I’m just trying to use my brain which is a wonderful God-given tool. An other alternative could be : We should redefine our definitions of reality, as m suggests in most of his videos. ‘The only reality is what you can feel in your heart.’ Maharaji, on many occasions. As none of these issues fit in my heart (which is obviously delighted by devotion an pranam to my Lord), where is the problem? Mr Ex is in his mind, that’s all. End of the issue. I’m sorry, I like these devastating reasonings.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 8, 1998 at 10:26:08 (EST)
Poster: Mike
Email: bigguy32@juno.com
To: Brian
Subject: Re: Ashrams (Closed)
Message:
In posts here I've seen references to some women being shot in a ashram in the Southern US somewhere. I don't recall the details, and I wasn't active at the time. But from what I've seen of MJ's actions, he doesn't do anything that isn't self-serving. I can't imagine him closing the ashrams unless they were proving to be a drain on what he viewed as his personal resources, and/or a liability. If MJ encourages someone to live in an ashram, and doesn't provide security at the site, then his organization could be found to be liable for any resulting death/injury suffered by those living 'under his roof'. In other words, the reasons were: Money, Money, and Money. In that order. Brian, I think that you've hit the nail on the head! I was in the Navy in 74 when I heard about a premie going crazy and killing someone in the ashram north of me in LA. He took his own life after the murder. I was in San Diego at the time. I've also heard horror stories from women who've been raped and beaten by other premies during their stay in the ashrams. These were isolated cases and the people who did these things were legally dealt with. Katie (correct me if I misunderstood you) says that there have been mahatmas who've molested children as well as sexually harrassed women and maybe men in the community. I think your right about the liability factor. If I were PPR, I wouldn't want anyone going through a major evolution via my method of meditation, to be attached to me in any way. Especially since the people coming into PPR's community, came from all walks of life with various functional levels of both mental and physical states. This seems to be the norm for a majority of "spiritual" centers today. If you look at some of the other cult-watch pages and nets... they also have seen their "gurus" distance themselves legally from their devotees. John Rogers for example, has gone so far as to start litigation against former senior devotees. Can you imagine PPR sueing Joan Apner or Dr. John for defamation of character? Or for that matter... sueing us for this forum and the things we say on it. When I entered this forum several months ago I had some concerns over the legality of expressing in written form... anything that could be misconstrude as defamating or slanderous. There are numerious cases on the books now of people being successfully sued for slanderious emails, forums, chat-room conversations etc. I think the only thing that saves this forum and it's participants from litigation is that PPR doesn't want to take a chance on exposing himself to further court action. This doesn't mean that he won't in the future. It also means that anything we say, can, and will be used against us in a court of law.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 8, 1998 at 10:27:05 (EST)
Poster: happiness
Email: 98**
To: Brian
Subject: is a warm (Re: Ashrams (Closed))
Message:
In 74, a guy premie shot at least one girl in florida at an ashram because he got 'inner agya' from maharaji to do it. maharaji said he doesn't give inner agya. It was big news at the time because maharji he was the lord so everyone was interested to know where he draws the line on his omnicience.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 8, 1998 at 10:30:01 (EST)
Poster: jim esquire
Email: 98**BB
To: Mike
Subject: to the stand please (Re: Ashrams (Closed))
Message:
Jim heller is waiting
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Date: Thurs, Jan 8, 1998 at 13:12:12 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: op
Subject: Re: Ashrams (Closed)
Message:
Thanks, OP, but this doesn't answer my question. What did Maharaji say to the ashram premies as to why this was being done, and did he ever talk about it publicly or to premies in general, etc.? That was really my question. I'm sure in retrospect there have been all kinds of excuses as to why Maharaji was so adamantly into the ashrams for many years and then abrupty dumped them, apparently for PR purposes. Unfortunately, they were full of real people. The fact that some of the ashram residents had trouble dealing "with society", which is probably true in my experience, would indicate that extreme care should have been taken to see that they had a smooth transition, I mean if Maharaji gave a shit about them, which in my opinion, he never really did. At least I never saw any evidence of that during my involvement. But my question remains. What did Maharaji himself say about all of this, if anything?
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Date: Thurs, Jan 8, 1998 at 13:38:31 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: happiness
Subject: Re: is a warm (Re: Ashrams (Closed))
Message:
In 74, a guy premie shot at least one girl in florida at an ashram because he got 'inner agya' from maharaji to do it. maharaji said he doesn't give inner agya. It was big news at the time because maharji he was the lord so everyone was interested to know where he draws the line on his omnicience. Yes, it was the Gainesville, Florida ashram as I recall, and we were then informed about the "inner agya" ban, which I guess was given in an attempt to avoid the further bad publicity of premies killing each other in the ashrams. By the way, does anyone know if Maharaji bothered to send his condolences to the families of the women who were killed? I'd bet dimes to donuts it didn't even cross his self-absorbed, egotistical little mind.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 8, 1998 at 16:48:32 (EST)
Poster: Jim(brother of 2)
Email:
To: Mr Ex
Subject: Re: Ashrams (Closed)
Message:
OP...re: >why don't we make a list of them?< An excellent idea. I'll start. Jeremy Thomas Frost - died 1988
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Date: Thurs, Jan 8, 1998 at 17:09:57 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Jim(brother of 2)
Subject: Re: Ashrams (Closed)
Message:
why don't we make a list of them?< An excellent idea. I'll start. Jeremy Thomas Frost - died 1988 Samuel Ray Jablonski - died 1994 (rest in peace, Sam)
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Date: Fri, Jan 9, 1998 at 12:55:38 (EST)
Poster: Brian
Email:
To: Mike
Subject: Re: Ashrams (Closed)
Message:
I think the only thing that saves this forum and it's participants from litigation is that PPR doesn't want to take a chance on exposing himself to further court action. This doesn't mean that he won't in the future. It also means that anything we say, can, and will be used against us in a court of law. I disagree. Suppose MJ said to himself, "Boy, I call myself Lord Of The Universe a few times and now these people wanna slam me on the Internet? I'll sue em!". First, the defendant(s) get to ask for a jury trial. He has no real peers. Who's he gonna want on the jury? Krishna? Second, he knows that (short of George Burns' card tricks) he's got no way to prove that anyone denouncing him as a fraud is in fact mistaken or flat-out lying. Three, any witnesses called for the defense will appear normal. Who's he going to call as witnesses? Pranamming premies? Four, (most important) He is a fraud. There is no libel/slander if the statements made/printed are factual. He would have to prove otherwise. Good Luck, MJ.
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Date: Wed, Jan 7, 1998 at 21:50:18 (EST)
Poster: Gregg
Email: gpainter@dnvr.uswest.net
To: Everyone
Subject: Incestuousness
Message:
I've been trying to communicate w/ y'all for a week or two, but I can't relate: I don't know who Mili is, and don't care. Where's the substance on this site? Is this the way it is on every site? I'm new to the Net thang, but, shouldn't we be able to discuss ideas, or is this just a gossip link?
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Date: Wed, Jan 7, 1998 at 22:21:07 (EST)
Poster: Sir David
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: Gregg
Subject: Re: Incestuousness
Message:
Stick around. This site has different phases. I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on life, the universe and everything. I couldn'r relate to all the Mili stuff either by the way.
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Date: Wed, Jan 7, 1998 at 22:22:35 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Gregg
Subject: Re: Incestuousness
Message:
I've been trying to communicate w/ y'all for a week or two, but I can't relate: I don't know who Mili is, and don't care. Where's the substance on this site? Is this the way it is on every site? I'm new to the Net thang, but, shouldn't we be able to discuss ideas, or is this just a gossip link? Dear Gregg - you're absolutely right that sometimes we get too incestuous and gossip-prone. However, many times there is quite a bit of substantial discussion on the site - I think you just arrived at a bad time. We're all probably sick of talking about the attempt by the infamous Mili (a Croatian premie who will do ANYTHING, and I mean ANYTHING, to prove his devotion to Maharaji, whether Maharaji likes it or not) to close down the newsgroup (alt.cult.maharaji) associated with the ex-premie site. Most of us have also got to know each other fairly well over the past several months, so we do engage in some off-topic conversation. I'm sorry thatt I cannot remember what issues or ideas you brought up in your previous posts, but you might try mentioning some of them again now that the Mili furor has died down. Regards from Katie P.S. I'm not sure how other forum and newsgroup sites operate, but I suspect that they function the same way - periodically swinging between focus and diffusion.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 8, 1998 at 01:40:55 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: Gregg
Subject: Re: Incestuousness
Message:
I've been trying to communicate w/ y'all for a week or two, but I can't relate: I don't know who Mili is, and don't care. Where's the substance on this site? Is this the way it is on every site? I'm new to the Net thang, but, shouldn't we be able to discuss ideas, or is this just a gossip link? What item of substance would you like to discues, Gregg? We're all ears.
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Date: Wed, Jan 7, 1998 at 20:51:51 (EST)
Poster: Andrew
Email:
To: Everyone
Subject: Re: On closure
Message:
In response to Rick who wrote: >Perhaps what you miss is the illusion of a full heart...> I see you are quick to question someone else's experience while assuming yours is beyond reproach. You must be pretty darned smart! Seriously though, you're sucking wind here Rick. How can someone have an illusion of a full heart? It's either full or it's not. Even a baby knows this fact. >… and experiencing not having to be responsible > We have the responsibility to choose wisely what we are responsible for. Don't fall into the trap of measuring another by your standards, or thinking you know where someone else is coming from when you don't. That would be a rather pompous position to take, don't you think? >Your testimony of grief is questionable because there was little grief and a lot of praise.> Unlike you I am not questioning whether or not Maharaji is a true master. I've seen his mastery. And I don't question whether or not Knowledge works. I've experienced its profound depth, clarity and joy. In that respect I am full of praise for Maharaji. And listen, this perspective doesn't come from brainwashing - I've come through that phase. It comes from having focused my attention on something pristine and beautiful. My grief is that I am not as focused as I was, and am therefore missing something I once experienced. Pretty logical don't you think? And I will never lose that pain as long as I have a memory of that beauty while at the same time not experiencing it. In other words, I know too much to be happy with anything less than what I know is possible!!! So, should I blame Maharaji for giving me something beautiful, or do I blame myself for turning my back? And by the way, I would feel the same pain if I turned my back for any reason. >Do you really have 1.5 kids or have you heard so much satsang about 'Rolls Royce happiness' that you brought forth a mutation? The word ''shram' was a nice touch; it almost diminunizes the vice grip of denial that the aaaashram cultivates.> What the #*@& are you talking about?
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Date: Wed, Jan 7, 1998 at 15:38:16 (EST)
Poster: Asst. to webmaster
Email:
To: Everyone
Subject: We know who you are
Message:
Did it ever occur to anyone posting here anonymously or under a false name that the webmaster can easily determine your identity? The person posting as "Jim" below is not Jim Heller, for example. We've already determined who the person posting as "Lord Jim III" was (it wasn't Jim Heller), and we've determined that another person posted a number of vicious posts (e.g. "Kill, kill, kill) using different pseudonyms. We're not going to out any of these people yet, and we haven't decided what to do about restricting this kind of misuse of the forum, but be warned.
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Date: Wed, Jan 7, 1998 at 15:57:15 (EST)
Poster: John K.
Email:
To: Asst. to webmaster
Subject: Re: We know who you are
Message:
How easy/difficult is it to simply remove such an offensive message as the one below about Katie?
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Date: Wed, Jan 7, 1998 at 16:19:44 (EST)
Poster: Asst. to Webmaster
Email:
To: John K.
Subject: Re: We know who you are
Message:
How easy/difficult is it to simply remove such an offensive message as the one below about Katie? It's not that difficult, but we have to get permission from Shri Lord Webmaster himself, so we don't like to do it very often.
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Date: Wed, Jan 7, 1998 at 18:10:08 (EST)
Poster: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net
To: Asst. to webmaster
Subject: Re: We know who you are
Message:
Did it ever occur to anyone posting here anonymously or under a false name that the webmaster can easily determine your identity? The person posting as 'Jim' below is not Jim Heller, for example. We've already determined who the person posting as 'Lord Jim III' was (it wasn't Jim Heller), and we've determined that another person posted a number of vicious posts (e.g. 'Kill, kill, kill) using different pseudonyms. We're not going to out any of these people yet, and we haven't decided what to do about restricting this kind of misuse of the forum, but be warned. Dear Asst. to Webmaster, I think that you should out those who post under other people's names, especially when they post the crap that "Lord Jim III" and the fake Jim below post. We get enough crap stirred up just from our regular discussions here (although things have quieted down a bit with Mili's departure and Jim's furlough), we don't need people attacking others while pretending to be Jim Heller. I say, force them to come clean! Regards, Michael
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Date: Wed, Jan 7, 1998 at 23:08:10 (EST)
Poster: CD
Email:
To: Asst. to webmaster
Subject: Re: We know who you are
Message:
"Asst. to webmaster" did it ever occur to you to post your real name?
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Date: Thurs, Jan 8, 1998 at 15:20:11 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: CD and all
Subject: It's me, CD (Re: We know who you are)
Message:
'Asst. to webmaster' did it ever occur to you to post your real name? Yes, it did occur to me, CD, but I chose (probably unwisely) to remain anonymous. So I'm outing myself : "Asst. to Webmaster" is me, Katie, and is ONLY me, Katie (despite my use of the royal "we".) Although I've been helping Brian a little with the web site, Brian didn't have input into the above posts that I made. Brian pointed out a few things that I said in anger that were perhaps unwise. Specifically: "We're not going to out any of these people yet, and we haven't decided what to do about restricting this kind of misuse of the forum, but be warned." Brian was of the opinion that this sounded like there was going to be some kind of "Big Brother" (or "Big Sister") presence on the forum, which is not what he intends at all, and I apologize for giving that impression. I still don't like people posting under the name "Jim" without making it clear that they are not Jim Heller, but it's not technically illegal, although since Jim Heller isn't here to defend himself, it's pretty despicable. It could (and has) caused some misunderstandings on the forum. There were also several anonymous death threats made on the forum towards a current premie over the weekend, and I find that despicable, not to mention cowardly, as well. I hope this clears up any misunderstandings, and reassures people as to Brian's intentions for the future of the forum. So long for now, Katie
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Date: Wed, Jan 7, 1998 at 13:32:41 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email: joger02@aol.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Photos
Message:
Something else I saw as a result of my Yahoo search was the Maharaji Photo Album, which, for some reason, is not linked to the ex-premie site. I think Scott originally prepared this and it gives a good history of how M looked over the years. By the way, if anyone doubts my earlier opinions about how Maharaji's eyes look like slits and have big bags under them, go to: http://www.miraclevision.com/maharaji/photos/htm and check out the photos at the end, which I believe are from the very Long Beach program I saw on video from 1996. Maharaji's appearance kind of startled me after not seeing him for about 7 years. Can this photo album be re-linked to the ex-premie site?
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Date: Thurs, Jan 8, 1998 at 07:56:36 (EST)
Poster: Brian
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: Photos
Message:
There were 3 pictures here that I didn't have. I grabbed em :) They'll be included somewhere on the site. Thanks, JW.
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Date: Wed, Jan 7, 1998 at 13:09:54 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email: joger02@aol.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Maharaji Foundation of America
Message:
I just did a Yahoo search for "Maharaji" and the ex-premie site comes up first and numerous other times. But one other site came up further down the list that I wanted to ask if anyone knows anything about. It's called "Maharaji Foundation of America." The address listed is "9950 Durant Avenue, Suite #510, Beverly Hills, California 90212." The telephone number is (310) 551-1539. The internet address is http://www.starglow.com/maharaji/ When I clicked on that address, nothing came up. Given the Southern California address, I'm thinking this may have something to do with Maharaji, the former lord of the universe, but I don't know. I'm tempted to call and ask. Does anyone know anything about this? I thought Mr. Ex mentioned a foundation earlier. JW
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Date: Wed, Jan 7, 1998 at 13:18:29 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: Maharaji Foundation of America
Message:
So, I called the telephone number (which has been changed to (213) 466-7354 and spoke with a very nice East Indian man who said the foundation promotes meditation, yoga and related practices. I asked if it had anything to do with "the person formerly known as Guru Maharaj Ji" and he said no, and that he was aware of who that person was, and that, thank you very much, they definitely did not want to be assoicated with that person. So, that's what I found out. JW
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Date: Thurs, Jan 8, 1998 at 08:12:44 (EST)
Poster: Brian
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: Maharaji Foundation of America
Message:
I've seen this guy's web pages before. He is a sort of Guru to the Stars, and is based out of the L.A. area. One page sported a picture with Steven Segal, but there were pictures of him with others that I've forgotten right now. He's set up shop where the money is. Probably only has one Rolls Royce, though. Small potatoes, eh?
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Date: Wed, Jan 7, 1998 at 11:39:04 (EST)
Poster: John Cavad
Email:
To: Everyone
Subject: WebSite Publicity
Message:
This may have been discussed months ago, so forgive me if I'm for bringing up an old topic. Are there more ways to gain greater exposure on this site? I know most people find this site by surfing the net, perhaps many use search engines. I don't believe this site can be found on all popular search engines (e.g., Excite). I don't understand how all search engines work. Do you need to register your site with the individual companies that operate search engines? Again, I'm no expert on the intenet, as I know some of you are out there. Getting free publicity in the newspapers, as one person mentioned happened in Australia, is a great way to get known. Anyway, I'm simply trying to understand how this all works and see if there's more we can do to spread our message of truth.
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Date: Wed, Jan 7, 1998 at 12:07:55 (EST)
Poster: And On Anand Ji
Email: aoa
To: John Cavad
Subject: Re: WebSite Publicity
Message:
This may have been discussed months ago, so forgive me if I'm for bringing up an old topic. Are there more ways to gain greater exposure on this site? I know most people find this site by surfing the net, perhaps many use search engines. I don't believe this site can be found on all popular search engines (e.g., Excite). I don't understand how all search engines work. Do you need to register your site with the individual companies that operate search engines? Again, I'm no expert on the intenet, as I know some of you are out there. Getting free publicity in the newspapers, as one person mentioned happened in Australia, is a great way to get known. Anyway, I'm simply trying to understand how this all works and see if there's more we can do to spread our message of truth. John - There are special input forms designed to notify multiple search engines of a new web page's URL. The base URL (www.ex-premie.org) is in most cases the most desireable one to publish, since it won't change unless the name of this domain changes to something besides ex-premie.org. I know the alta vista engine has an input form like that. It's base URL is found at
altavista.digital.com.
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Date: Wed, Jan 7, 1998 at 12:12:48 (EST)
Poster: And On Anand Ji
Email: aoa
To: ---------------
Subject: Re: WebSite Publicity
Message:
This may have been discussed months ago, so forgive me if I'm for bringing up an old topic. Are there more ways to gain greater exposure on this site? I know most people find this site by surfing the net, perhaps many use search engines. I don't believe this site can be found on all popular search engines (e.g., Excite). I don't understand how all search engines work. Do you need to register your site with the individual companies that operate search engines? Again, I'm no expert on the intenet, as I know some of you are out there. Getting free publicity in the newspapers, as one person mentioned happened in Australia, is a great way to get known. Anyway, I'm simply trying to understand how this all works and see if there's more we can do to spread our message of truth. John - There are special input forms designed to notify multiple search engines of a new web page's URL. The base URL (www.ex-premie.org) is in most cases the most desireable one to publish, since it won't change unless the name of this domain changes to something besides ex-premie.org. I know the alta vista engine has an input form like that. It's base URL is found at
altavista.digital.com. e.g. www.submit-it.com.
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Date: Wed, Jan 7, 1998 at 12:32:00 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: John Cavad
Subject: Re: WebSite Publicity
Message:
This may have been discussed months ago, so forgive me if I'm for bringing up an old topic. Are there more ways to gain greater exposure on this site? I know most people find this site by surfing the net, perhaps many use search engines. I don't believe this site can be found on all popular search engines (e.g., Excite). I don't understand how all search engines work. Do you need to register your site with the individual companies that operate search engines? Again, I'm no expert on the intenet, as I know some of you are out there. Getting free publicity in the newspapers, as one person mentioned happened in Australia, is a great way to get known. Anyway, I'm simply trying to understand how this all works and see if there's more we can do to spread our message of truth. I agree that publicity in newspapers is a good idea, but this site showed up by means of a simple search for "Maharaji" on Yahoo, and was, I think, the first of the search results.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 8, 1998 at 02:27:36 (EST)
Poster: Andrew
Email:
To: John Cavad
Subject: Re: WebSite Publicity
Message:
This may have been discussed months ago, so forgive me if I'm for bringing up an old topic. Are there more ways to gain greater exposure on this site? I know most people find this site by surfing the net, perhaps many use search engines. I don't believe this site can be found on all popular search engines (e.g., Excite). I don't understand how all search engines work. Do you need to register your site with the individual companies that operate search engines? Again, I'm no expert on the intenet, as I know some of you are out there. Getting free publicity in the newspapers, as one person mentioned happened in Australia, is a great way to get known. Anyway, I'm simply trying to understand how this all works and see if there's more we can do to spread our message of truth. You could tatoo the URL on your ass and walk naked through the streets of New York City. Or how about putting out a hit record and having the URL chanted when it's played backwards. Or, you could orchestrate a sensational mass ex-cult suicide and leave behind a video encouraging people to visit this site. Just a few of suggestions... hope it helps. AP
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Date: Thurs, Jan 8, 1998 at 11:41:33 (EST)
Poster: daddy-
Email: b
To: Andrew
Subject: O (Re: WebSite Publicity)
Message:
is hanging out here in your best interest?
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Date: Thurs, Jan 8, 1998 at 12:27:16 (EST)
Poster: John Cavad
Email:
To: Andrew
Subject: Re: WebSite Publicity
Message:
Andrew wrote "You could tatoo the URL on your ass and walk naked through the streets of New York City. " Thank you for clearly demonstrating to members of this forum your level of maturity and intellect.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 8, 1998 at 13:06:03 (EST)
Poster: And On Anand Ji
Email: aoa
To: John Cavad
Subject: Re: WebSite Publicity
Message:
Andrew wrote 'You could tatoo the URL on your ass and walk naked through the streets of New York City. ' Thank you for clearly demonstrating to members of this forum your level of maturity and intellect. Which brings up an interesting point, John. I've found the relative level of expression here to be quite frankly a little under what I'm used to, for this age group - most of the premies here are over age 35. I find it exceedingly difficult not to take the bait, dangle bait of my own, and play the Internet I hate you game. fwiw -- Chris
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Date: Thurs, Jan 8, 1998 at 13:53:10 (EST)
Poster: bftb
Email:
To: And On Anand Ji
Subject: Re: WebSite Publicity
Message:
Andrew wrote 'You could tatoo the URL on your ass and walk naked through the streets of New York City. ' Thank you for clearly demonstrating to members of this forum your level of maturity and intellect. Which brings up an interesting point, John. I've found the relative level of expression here to be quite frankly a little under what I'm used to, for this age group - most of the premies here are over age 35. I find it exceedingly difficult not to take the bait, dangle bait of my own, and play the Internet I hate you game. fwiw -- Chris I go through the same thing as you aoaj.When I read that guys boorishly sarcastic post,my gut reaction was to tell him where to go,especially because I've thought him an M apologist/pr guy from his first post-despite his expected protestations to the contrary. Anyway,even though I kind of just did what I had held back from doing-I agree,it's tough to hold back. I stop the urge by re-running the thought through my head that certain people will come here simply to egg people on in order to distract from the positive potential of this website.I believe it is certain peoples way of gumming up this forum.I'd like to say i'll continue to try and ignore them but you are right:sometimes the bait is very tempting.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 8, 1998 at 15:20:05 (EST)
Poster: And On Anand Ji
Email: aoa
To: bftb
Subject: Re: WebSite Publicity
Message:
Anyway,even though I kind of just did what I had held back from doing-I agree,it's tough to hold back. I stop the urge by re-running the thought through my head that certain people will come here simply to egg people on in order to distract from the positive potential of this website. Thank you. I think people aren't necessarily connected on a deep level to their motivations, when it comes to posting in an interactive forum. What's fassnatin' is all the premies coming out of the woodwork, to post on the verboten Internet.
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Date: Fri, Jan 9, 1998 at 20:08:32 (EST)
Poster: Andrew
Email:
To: bftb
Subject: Re: WebSite Publicity
Message:
Andrew wrote 'You could tatoo the URL on your ass and walk naked through the streets of New York City. ' Thank you for clearly demonstrating to members of this forum your level of maturity and intellect. Which brings up an interesting point, John. I've found the relative level of expression here to be quite frankly a little under what I'm used to, for this age group - most of the premies here are over age 35. I find it exceedingly difficult not to take the bait, dangle bait of my own, and play the Internet I hate you game. fwiw -- Chris I go through the same thing as you aoaj.When I read that guys boorishly sarcastic post,my gut reaction was to tell him where to go,especially because I've thought him an M apologist/pr guy from his first post-despite his expected protestations to the contrary. Anyway,even though I kind of just did what I had held back from doing-I agree,it's tough to hold back. I stop the urge by re-running the thought through my head that certain people will come here simply to egg people on in order to distract from the positive potential of this website.I believe it is certain peoples way of gumming up this forum.I'd like to say i'll continue to try and ignore them but you are right:sometimes the bait is very tempting. Do you guys take yourselves so seriously that you find no room for levity? Somebody tell me, why do you want more exposure anyway? To seriously promote "the positive potential of this website"? Bullshit, it's because you've got no real purpose in your life and this fills the void. It's a sort of jihad-like mentality you have. If you see such a goal part of your higher mission in life then you truly are worthy of sarcasm, and the more boorish the better. Besides, I've seen a lot worse coming from people like Jim Heller, David, et al concerning Maharaji's physical appearance, his family, etc. You can't imagine the number of times I've had to "hold back" when I see this kind of derogatory and slanderous abuse. So don't be such pompous prigs, and lighten up for God's sake!
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Date: Fri, Jan 9, 1998 at 22:49:57 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: Andrew
Subject: Re: WebSite Publicity
Message:
Bullshit, it's because you've got no real purpose in your life and this fills the void. So, Andrew, tell me, exactly what "void" are YOU trying to fill by being here.
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Date: Sat, Jan 10, 1998 at 05:19:33 (EST)
Poster: And On Anand Ji
Email: aoa
To: ----------
Subject: Re: WebSite Publicity
Message:
Andrew wrote 'You could tatoo the URL on your ass and walk naked through the streets of New York City. ' Thank you for clearly demonstrating to members of this forum your level of maturity and intellect. Which brings up an interesting point, John. I've found the relative level of expression here to be quite frankly a little under what I'm used to, for this age group - most of the premies here are over age 35. I find it exceedingly difficult not to take the bait, dangle bait of my own, and play the Internet I hate you game. fwiw -- Chris I go through the same thing as you aoaj.When I read that guys boorishly sarcastic post,my gut reaction was to tell him where to go,especially because I've thought him an M apologist/pr guy from his first post-despite his expected protestations to the contrary. Anyway,even though I kind of just did what I had held back from doing-I agree,it's tough to hold back. I stop the urge by re-running the thought through my head that certain people will come here simply to egg people on in order to distract from the positive potential of this website.I believe it is certain peoples way of gumming up this forum.I'd like to say i'll continue to try and ignore them but you are right:sometimes the bait is very tempting. Do you guys take yourselves so seriously that you find no room for levity? Somebody tell me, why do you want more exposure anyway? To seriously promote 'the positive potential of this website'? Bullshit, it's because you've got no real purpose in your life and this fills the void. It's a sort of jihad-like mentality you have. If you see such a goal part of your higher mission in life then you truly are worthy of sarcasm, and the more boorish the better. Besides, I've seen a lot worse coming from people like Jim Heller, David, et al concerning Maharaji's physical appearance, his family, etc. You can't imagine the number of times I've had to 'hold back' when I see this kind of derogatory and slanderous abuse. So don't be such pompous prigs, and lighten up for God's sake! I can't speak to all that. Maybe someone else can. why do you want more exposure, anyway[?] There are still people out there, who don't yet know of Maharaji-initiates making critical observation of past experiences in DLM in an open-invitation forum. The Internet is an ideal, low-cost, specialized medium that scales well to the size of the intended pool of participants in such forum. It is also, coincidentally, available to persons with the neatly overlapping demographics: DLM past initiation, and Internet access.
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Date: Wed, Jan 7, 1998 at 10:25:24 (EST)
Poster: Mr Ex
Email:
To: Everyone
Subject: News from Balbhagwan ...
Message:
Hi guys ...... look what I’ve found : ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ MR SATPAL MAHARAJ, Minister of State for Railways. Date of Birth : 21 September, 1951 Place of Birth : Pauri Garhwal, UP Father's Name : Late Mr Hans Ji... --http://www.nic.in/India-Image/PIB/satpal.html MR SATPAL MAHARAJ, Minister of State for Railways Date of Birth : 21 September, 1951 Place of Birth : Pauri Garhwal, UP Father's Name : Late Mr Hans Ji Maharaj Present Address : Office: Room No.245, Rail Bhawan, New Delhi Residence : 6, Raisina Road, New Delhi Positions Held : Joined the Congress Party, 1989 Member, All India Congress Committee, March 1992 Convenor of Uttar Pradesh for 125th Birth Anniversary Celebrations of Mahatma Gandhi President, All India Indira Congress(Tiwari), Uttarakhand Unit Member of Parliament since 1996 Whip, All India Indira Congress(Tiwari) Other Information : Mr Satpal Maharaj undertook his first historic padyatra in 1983 called `Bharat Jagao Padyatra' from Badrinath to Boat Club, New Delhi. He also undertook padyatras from Bodh Gaya to Patna and Siliguri to Gangtok for mass awakening and for creating emotional integration and national solidarity. +++++++++++++++++++++ SATPAL MAHARAJ MEETS SOUTH AFRICA'S HIGH COMMISSIONER. The South African High Commissioner, Mr. Matsila called on the Minister of State for Finance, Shri.. --http://www.nic.in/India-Image/PIB/PIBR180697.html +++++++++++++++++++++++ Maharaj embarrasses JD leadership royally. A king's ovation they gave him -- so what if it was a bit embarrassing for the rest around? On Thursday, at the. --http://206.103.13.164/news/sep/13rally.htm Maharaj embarrasses JD leadership royally A king's ovation they gave him -- so what if it was a bit embarrassing for the rest around? On Thursday, at the Janata Dal's much-hyped sankalp rally in New Delhi, the king was not Prime Minister Inder Kumar Gujral, not Ram Vilas Paswan -- but Satpal Maharaj. Who, true to his name, behaved like a maharaj. The crowd received Maharaj carrying his portrait and shouting slogans. And, embarrassingly (for the rest of the VIPs, that is), started melting away the moment he finished his speech! The party leadership hurriedly summoned him back to the stage, as Gujral was to follow him to the mike. Luckily, the crowd too returned, shouting slogans in favour of Uttarakand. The first few minutes of Gujral's speech went completely unattended -- for besides the audience's open-eyed admiration for the royally-seated Maharaj, the mike was unadjusted. Seeing his master's predicament, Civil Aviation Minister Chand Mahal Ibrahim flew to his rescue and adjusted the mike. A satisfied Gujral went on. The next on stage was Ram Vilas Paswan. He was cheered repeatedly by dalit supporters who, like Maharaj's people, once Paswan finished his speech, started melting away. Former prime minister H D Deve Gowda, who next took the mike, came prepared -- he had his speech on a piece of paper, written neatly in Hindi, with which, in his characteristic stumbling way, he proceeded to enlighten the audience. Surprisingly, the audience liked it -- and went on to show its appreciation with loud cheers (or were those jeers?)... +++++++++++++++++++ Brief Bio-data Member of Parliment XI Lok Sabha. MAHARAJ SH. SATPAL. AIIC(T) - GARHWAL( UTTAR PRADESH) Father's Name : SH. HANS JI MAHARAJ Education :... --http://alfa.nic.in/lok11/mpls349.htm MAHARAJ SH. SATPAL AIIC(T) - GARHWAL( UTTAR PRADESH) Father's Name : SH. HANS JI MAHARAJ Education : SENIOR CAMBRIDGE Marital Status : MARRIED Name of Spouse : SMT. AMRITA RAWAT Sex : MALE Date of Birth : 21/09/1951 No. of Sons : 2 House : LOK SABHA Category : GENERAL Profession : Agriculturist Political Worker Social Worker ++++++++++++++++++++++++ Satpal Sing Rawat aka Bal Bhagwan Ji is definitely into politics!
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Date: Wed, Jan 7, 1998 at 11:29:40 (EST)
Poster: And On Anand Ji
Email: aoa
To: Mr Ex
Subject: Re: News from Balbhagwan ...
Message:

[bbji.1 | bbj.2 | bbj.3 | bbj.4] bubble gum ji

Bubble Gum Ji


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Date: Wed, Jan 7, 1998 at 11:33:44 (EST)
Poster: Rick
Email: rtaraday@hotmail.com
To: Mr Ex
Subject: Re: News from Balbhagwan ...
Message:
Bravo, Mr. Ex. That's truly a find.
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Date: Wed, Jan 7, 1998 at 11:43:08 (EST)
Poster: Mr Ex
Email:
To: And On Anand Ji
Subject: Re: News from Balbhagwan ...
Message:
yeah!!!! I can still recognize him ..... I now understand why prempal doesn't like politics! ha ha ha ...
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Date: Wed, Jan 7, 1998 at 11:48:26 (EST)
Poster: And On Anand Ji
Email: aoa
To: Mr Ex
Subject: Re: News from Balbhagwan ...
Message:
Sorry I goofed that one upt. Here it is again.
one two three four bubble gum ji

Bubble Gum Ji
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Date: Wed, Jan 7, 1998 at 12:28:51 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: And On Anand Ji
Subject: Re: News from Balbhagwan ...
Message:
I wonder what happened to those Elvis-Costello-like glasses he used to wear. I'll have to admit, with a few extra chins he's starting to look more like Bohle ji the cab-driver and Prem Pal the cult leader.
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Date: Wed, Jan 7, 1998 at 16:43:10 (EST)
Poster: bal bhagwan ji sing along:
Email: bb
To: And On Anand Ji
Subject: I've been working on the rrrrrailrroad all the live long day! (Re: News from Balbhagwan ...)
Message:
oh my god, what a hoot. when his picture came up I felt the power of jesus and brahma. I forgot how his bhole shri went. oh yeah, ananda kanda bal bhagwan ki jai! Yipes! I wish I could translate a couple of those hindu words from the article. So, he has rabid followers! Comments about his royalty! Obviously he has a satguru racket on the side. Is bipolar ji, I mean bhole ji a cab driver? Thanks for the find x-man. I recognise his eyes. I would applaud his being a working stiff if it wasn't for the followers that he has managed to ensnare. That brahmin lord attitude is tough to give up I guess, the holy family won't be any help removeing the caste system thats for sure. I'm going to have to just break through my reluctance and go poke in the archives for some bal bhagwan ji stuff. I'll just hold my nose and burrow down.
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Date: Wed, Jan 7, 1998 at 17:17:49 (EST)
Poster: John K.
Email:
To: bal bhagwan ji sing along:
Subject: Re: I've been working on the rrrrrailrroad all the live long day! (Re: News from Balbhagwan ...)
Message:
Will someone please tell me how someone of my obvious intelligence, and your obvious intelligence also bb, and all of ours for that matter, could have gone along with screaming out 4 or was it 5 different bolays? What the hell possessed us? maybe it was a real life possession by the spirit..how else to explain such a dramatic loss of common sense? There were a few of those bolays that I could never quite get. How did people learn those? Were they taught over in India? I know! it was bob mishler's fault, right? I'm gonna start laughing tears of pure shame in a minute. I said below somewhere I was proud of what I did in living in the ashram. Maybe I was exaggerating it a bit. I am definetly NOT proud of the pre '74 stuff. I think the low point of my life was when I first of all went along with singing arti -when I clearly did not understand everything I was singing- 2nd of all the light ceremony and the water ceremony, should never have done that, always thought that was bogus, especially since I was raised catholic and had to do the holy water scene going in and out of the church - 3rd saying the bolay stuff.
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Date: Wed, Jan 7, 1998 at 17:34:31 (EST)
Poster: both
Email: bb
To: John K.
Subject: feet on the (Re: News from Balbhagwan ...)
Message:
'What the hell possessed us?' Good question Mr. K. Well, actually I know, I have the printed material from those days and the rap was VERY potent. Since I will be pokeing around in the archives I will try to pick something from those days. Really, maharaji had a chance to pull it off and he had a good army, I think the thing he did wrong was choose the wwrong path at about 1976. Remember? it was all the indian stuff fault, and we were all open to trying some new understanding, but then maharji chose to pull out all the stops and do the really severe late seventies thing. Eighties too, and we would have supported him if he had set it up in a way mishler could have stomached. You know, down to earth. got to go.
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Date: Wed, Jan 7, 1998 at 17:57:13 (EST)
Poster: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net
To: Mr Ex
Subject: Re: News from Balbhagwan ...
Message:
Ha ha ha...what a great picture! I pulled out my old Anand band album and compared photos...ha ha ha...wait a minute! What am I laughing about? My hair looks like that, and since the feasting orgy of Christmas my face is almost that fat...maybe if I grow a mustache I could be a big time politician in India...maybe that picture isn't so funny after all...
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Date: Wed, Jan 7, 1998 at 19:54:26 (EST)
Poster: a future prime minister
Email: bb
To: And On Anand Ji
Subject: and the lord, better than the kennedys (Re: News from Balbhagwan ...)
Message:
what is a padratya? procession?
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Date: Thurs, Jan 8, 1998 at 01:51:19 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: John K.
Subject: Re: I've been working on the rrrrrailrroad all the live long day! (Re: News from Balbhagwan ...)
Message:
Will someone please tell me how someone of my obvious intelligence, and your obvious intelligence also bb, and all of ours for that matter, could have gone along with screaming out 4 or was it 5 different bolays? What the hell possessed us? maybe it was a real life possession by the spirit..how else to explain such a dramatic loss of common sense? There were a few of those bolays that I could never quite get. How did people learn those? Were they taught over in India? I know! it was bob mishler's fault, right? I'm gonna start laughing tears of pure shame in a minute. I said below somewhere I was proud of what I did in living in the ashram. Maybe I was exaggerating it a bit. I am definetly NOT proud of the pre '74 stuff. I think the low point of my life was when I first of all went along with singing arti -when I clearly did not understand everything I was singing- 2nd of all the light ceremony and the water ceremony, should never have done that, always thought that was bogus, especially since I was raised catholic and had to do the holy water scene going in and out of the church - 3rd saying the bolay stuff. By the "light ceremony" do you mean swining the arti tray with a cotton ball soaked in clairifed butter and then we used to wave our hands over it and press our palms to our faces? Is that what you mean. Yes, that was weird, but it went on long after 1974. In fact, it was going on when I left in 1983. By the "water ceremony" do you mean drinking charmanarit, water that Maharaji had stuck his toes into? That went on just as long too. And I agree, it was just like the Catholic holy water, but without refernce to anyone's "lotus feet." God, what a weird cult were in. It was a time in our lives when our intelligence was not "obvious." But really, these things and even the Bolay Shris were largely a group-pressure, and group-type behavior. They were things people wouldn't have done on their own, and would have, in fact, considered them insane, but in a group, and in order to be accepted by the group, people did an said a lot of ignorant stuff, all incouraged, by the way, by Maharaji himself. I can't say I'm "proud" of what I did in the ashram. In addition to the ridiculous rituals, I also took a lot of abuse from awful people who were given power by M, and I also put my own better judgment and intelligence (not to mention my sex and relationship lives) on the shelf and lived a lifestyle I really hated. I can't say I'm proud of a time in my life when my freedom was restricted in that way.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 8, 1998 at 02:44:24 (EST)
Poster: And On Anand Ji
Email: aoa
To: ---------
Subject: Re: I've been working on the rrrrrailrroad all the live long day! (Re: News from Balbhagwan ...)
Message:
. . . cotton ball soaked in clairifed butter . . . . . . things and even the Bolay Shris were . . .The clarified butter was "ghee" and I think the other was spelled "bhole" (rather than bolay); e.g. Bhole Ji. I know what an A-Hole is. What's a Bhole? :)
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Date: Thurs, Jan 8, 1998 at 03:04:07 (EST)
Poster: op
Email:
To: And On Anand Ji
Subject: Re: I've been working on the rrrrrailrroad all the live long day! (Re: News from Balbhagwan ...)
Message:
as long as you're making corrections, you might as well get them right: Bholiye = imperative of the verb meaning 'to speak' Not as in Bhole Ji, which I think means 'innocent one' But if 'goomraji' is accepted spelling, I don't see why 'bholay' isn't. Or bowlay, for that matter.
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Date: Tues, Jan 6, 1998 at 15:37:22 (EST)
Poster: Nigel
Email:
To: Everyone
Subject: To Seymour & JW (science,morality..
Message:
Hello Seymour and JW I'd just like to reply to your post on evolution, science etc, Seymour, and to your follow-up post, JW. I can really relate to both. During my premie years I too felt very uncomfortable both about the lack of rational thought on any subject whatsoever, and to the lack of any apparent concern for the wider needs of humanity. Like you, Seymour, I would now call myself a 'secular humanist' if I had to identify a moral philosophy (I can't say I know very much about moral philosophy - but if I've understood it correctly the phrase just means 'do unto others...', except without the spiritual dimension - a bit like your churchgoing, JW. Your minister sounds cool!). I have certainly become an out-and-out atheist. Much as I would love to feel there was some deeper 'rhyme and reason' to it all, I simply can't see any good reason for supposing there is. About ten years ago when I was finally extricating myself from years of premie conditioning, I chanced on a book by Richard Dawkins called 'The Blind Watchmaker'. I would recommend it to everybody. It's a very entertaining, intellectually honest defence of scientific atheism - arguing in detail exactly how natural selection can account for the extraodinary complexity found in living things and give the very misleading appearance of purpose or design. It's not that I had ever doubted the truth of evolution, but, like many people brought up in a Christian tradition, I think I still half-believed that woolly rationalisation that says 'living things may have evolved, but God was the unseen hand making it happen that way'. The Blind Watchmaker makes even that position seem impossible to defend. The book is surprisingly easy to read, even for me, who at that time had no scientific background whatsoever. If anything, you come away from reading it with a greater sense of wonder about the universe than when you started. You are right about the need for both 'head and heart', Seymour - but in many ways I don't think those two parts of us need be in conflict. I'm not sure you can really separate the two, even if you wanted to - which is one of the reasons Knowledge seemed such a difficult and ludicrous lifestyle. Treating the human mind as if it were the enemy can only lead to misery in the long run. I've read and studied many scientific writers since, and the best of them write with a very 'human' voice: Stephen Jay Gould, Susan Blackmore, RC Lewontin, Steven Rose, Oliver Sacks, Leon Kamin, to name but a few. People sincerely and openly interested in scientific truth seem to have a great love of humanity, I've found. As to Knowledge being about the heart, I'm not sure it ever really was. Ok, there was endless talk about love and devotion etc., and I remember premies often speaking about the experience of Knowledge as being 'just like first love'. I can't say it was ever quite like that for me, but even if it had been - what are young lovers like, anyway? - Don't they tend to be self-obsessed, wrapped up in themselves and their loved one to the exclusion of everything else? Regarding your post, JW, I too used to be uncomfortable and a little embarrassed about the way that every penny raised by DLM seemed to go to DLM alone: either to Maharaj ji, to staging future premie events, or to attracting new members (ie., new contributors). A completely self-serving little universe. (The Hare Krishnas - a movement who share much in common with DLM - do at least run soup-kitchens for the homeless as part of their service). It's a very weird concept of charity. When I still thought premie thoughts I used to rationalise this to myself, and to others, by saying at least when people receive Knowledge they are more likely to become the sort of people who will do good for others, than they were before. This is nonsense, of course. I also believed the line of thought that went: Guru Maharaj ji has become wealthy not because he sought wealth but because he devoted his life to Knowledge. I knew all the right Biblical quotes to help with this kind of rationalisation. In this case it was: 'Seek ye first the kingdom of heaven, and all the rest shall be added'. (will it buggery! - I could hardly afford to keep open a bank account in all my premie years.) I went along with everything I didn't like through a deeply held conviction that Knowledge was The Truth, and that, regardless of whether or not I was having a blissful experience (this was mostly debatable), surrendering to Maharaj ji could somehow liberate people from the chains of their mortality. I had been reading eastern books for a few years and meditating before I ever got involved, so I had already taken on board this kind of thinking. Now that I've learned a bit more about how the brain works, the very idea seems absurd. How can our 'consciousness' possibly hope to survive the grave, when it can't even survive intact from one day to the next? Ok, so there may be some consciousness evident during REM sleep (ie., in our dreams), but in deeper, slow-wave sleep we are quite simply NOT THERE ANY MORE. We are gone - good as dead. Consciousness is a product of the brain, requiring the consumption of vast quantities of proteins during our waking hours. Remove this physical sustenance and there is no consciousness - simple as that. I know some ex-premies still hold onto notions of a 'soul' that is neither body nor mind, but I can't join them, much as I'd like it to be otherwise. As far as I am concerned, we are on our own; if there is good to be done, truth to be told, or peace to be established on earth, it is entirely up to us, and us alone to do it - and do it in this lifetime, since there isn't going to be another. When I first started reading this forum I still believed m to be a fellow-dupe of the cult process - a man born into a delusion. The more I have found out about him over the last few weeks, and through reading that Long Beach extract I now firmly believe him to be no more than a cynical manipulator of other people's lives. As a result, some of my recent posts have tended to degenerate into bad-tempered rants. (This feels good at the time, but is probably not so great for people reading them. I'm sorry if I've upset anybody). During a recent exchange of hostilities, a practising premie who posts here - er, shall we say - quite a lot, accused me of having a 'cosy little belief system' which I didn't like to have challenged. This couldn't be further from the truth. For one thing, employing a rational scepticism is far from cosy, and as far as I'm concerned is more of a 'disbelief system'. I think it is important that we DOUBT EVERYTHING. And this goes for scientific ideas as much as for spiritual ones. Like you, Seymour, I am 'open to all sorts of ideas and beliefs', but before I will take too seriously anything I am told I want to know exactly what that believer has done, or intends to do, to ensure they are not plain wrong or deluded. If scientists had not learned to doubt their own theories they would still be doing alchemy. If all of this has sounded a bit bleak and negative, I had better add that I find life can be very fulfilling without any 'spiritual' component. The world makes better sense, and I can usually keep both my curiousity and conscience reasonably satisfied - and enjoy a few jars of ale whilst about it. Best wishes to both of you.
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Date: Wed, Jan 7, 1998 at 23:23:48 (EST)
Poster: the elements,dna,
Email: bb
To: Nigel
Subject: and the smartness (Re: To Seymour & JW (science,morality..)
Message:
Hi Nigel, those guys are taking thier time to respond so I thought I would enjoy your thread. Jim brought up dawkins and I read the book 'river out of eden' excellent, mili read it too. DNA rules the lifeforms no doubt. This is a dna manufactured place as far as the living forms are concerned. However, without the elements from the periodic chart, helium, hydrogen, oxygen,ect. DNA cannot either come about, or build things, so it is dependent on another automatic system, the providing mechanism of the elements is another whole study. Dawkins makes a huge leap of judgement in my opinion when he claims that just because DNA is digital, that eliminates the possibility of a conciousness to exist and to have qualities of it's own. I don't see how to make that assumption, and he didn't back up his leap of logic in the book I read. DNA only does things that insures the survival of DNA. That right there is the measureing stick to see if anything is happening that falls outside of that DNA rule. I say, that there is no dna reason for the music humans make. There is no reason for the DNA to give the humans the mental capacity to blow up the whole dna world. all the rest of the creatures are on instinct, the humans would be too but the humans have free will, that is not a DNA provided thing. Since we are on free will mode, we are vulnerable to all sorts of behavioral excesses that other creatures seem to not have a problem with, or rather, their behaviors are explainable by the dna rule of everything happens just for dna survival. It works for everything, except the humans have the boundry in us where the dna bumps up against something else. Religious people sloppily try to extend the reality with thier imagination. The dna facts are the dna facts. To deny them is fantasy. However, in his fight and pride, dawkins battles the religious folks and commits a serious scientific blunder, mainly, having an ideology instead of being solely committed to rationality. The dna rules do not extend completely through the humans and he ignores that, perhaps for the same reason the religious ignore the full dna reality. Mainly, ego and pride and misunderstanding. There are many scientific theories and they are waiting to be proven or disproven. Both dawkins and the religious don't think they have a theory but they both do. I think it is a reasonable theory that a smartness to the existance is where the dna genious came from, that the elements came from the same smartness, that the smartness might be capable of monitoring the creation, the element system, the dna system, and it's creation, and it's subsequent human creation. That smartness that we have could spring from the same source of smartness, that smartness might have it's own system, and like the dna has it's basic operating rule, which is, dna survival, the smartness might have capacities and power as well. It might have constraints, but I think we can figure out the nature of the smartness if we look at what might be evidence. To me dawkins fascination with dna is understandable, but the area that has my interest now is the part of us which is outside of the dna rule.
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Date: Wed, Jan 7, 1998 at 23:36:11 (EST)
Poster: CD
Email:
To: the elements,dna,
Subject: Re: and the smartness (Re: To Seymour & JW (science,morality..)
Message:
Forget DNA, what is the Sun made of?
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Date: Thurs, Jan 8, 1998 at 04:20:35 (EST)
Poster: Mr Ex
Email:
To: CD
Subject: Re: and the smartness (Re: To Seymour & JW (science,morality..)
Message:
The sun isn’t made of dna of course you know why? it’s no living being! forget about maharaji’s theories look in any English dictionary!
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Date: Thurs, Jan 8, 1998 at 11:12:19 (EST)
Poster: here comes the
Email: b
To: Mr Ex
Subject: god, yada yada (Re: To Seymour & JW (science,morality..)
Message:
correct x-man The sun is made from the warmth of the heart of god. It's the divine form of vishnudevaanandabrahminotsky. You worship it by bathing in the pristine waters of the ganges, in the morning, by lifting your hands out of the water in front of you and raising it up to head hight and muttering mystical sounds that mean 'iam he'. If body parts or hair or poops come up with your hand, that is unacceptable to the sun of god and do it again. Pagan westerners that believe in the smartness say it's hydrogen and helium. At thiry million degrees or so.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 8, 1998 at 15:24:40 (EST)
Poster: And On Anand Ji
Email: aoa
To: Mr Ex
Subject: Re: and the smartness (Re: To Seymour & JW (science,morality..)
Message:
The sun isn t made of dna of course you know why? it s no living being! forget about maharaji s theories look in any English dictionary! I know and it's easy to forget -- many complex inorganic structures also exist. Every star is a cell in the soul of the Universe. -CS Lewis (paraphrased?)
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Date: Thurs, Jan 8, 1998 at 23:02:09 (EST)
Poster: CD
Email:
To: here comes the
Subject: Re: god, yada yada (Re: To Seymour & JW (science,morality..)
Message:
> The sun is made from the warmth of the heart of god. A nice way to put it. Hydrogen and helium are just approximations (models) to the reality. But people do have to take some stand to bolster their rationality. Nobody has even figured out the chicken and egg dilema, so people are now claiming satisfaction with DNA cocktail party talk. Yes, logic is a wonderful game!
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Date: Thurs, Jan 8, 1998 at 23:11:42 (EST)
Poster: CD
Email:
To: Mr Ex
Subject: Re: and the smartness (Re: To Seymour & JW (science,morality..)
Message:
Mr Ex, Regarding DNA: I had to have the structures of the amino acids committed to memory by the 4th week of 1st quarter Organic Chemistry. I didn't take care of my flies well in genetics fruit fly lab. Amazing how fast DNA multiplies. Yes I am familiar with the dictionary. Don't be so shallow! Don't underestimate subtle understanding or infinity. If you think the essence of life can be captured in a scientific model than you are a fool. CD
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Date: Thurs, Jan 8, 1998 at 23:30:36 (EST)
Poster: CD
Email:
To: And On Anand Ji
Subject: Re: and the smartness (Re: To Seymour & JW (science,morality..)
Message:
The sun isn t made of dna of course you know why? it s no living being! forget about maharaji s theories look in any English dictionary! I know and it's easy to forget -- many complex inorganic structures also exist. Every star is a cell in the soul of the Universe. -CS Lewis (paraphrased?) Tell me what the difference is in the building blocks that make up organic and inorganic molecules. Oh, not that carbon logic. Are the protons, neutrons and electron fields organic and inorganic? Where does the perception of what you are experiencing exist? Is the answer different from the existance of an irrational number? Logic has not reached the heart of reality yet. Logic has in fact proved itself illogical at the extremes. The answer to existence does manifest in an extreme realm.
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Date: Fri, Jan 9, 1998 at 05:29:47 (EST)
Poster: Mr Ex
Email:
To: CD and sophists ...
Subject: Sophism and BS philosophy (Re: To Seymour & JW (science,morality..)
Message:
>Yes I am familiar with the dictionary. >Don't be so shallow! >Don't underestimate subtle understanding or infinity. >If you think the essence of life can be captured in a scientific >model than you are a fool. Did you notice how maharaji introduces his powerful idea of ‘redefining our definition of reality’? He does very often in most of his discourses. He is not the only one by the way : this is called sophism. I also remember my first class of philosophy : how BS theories are built on fallacious reasoning. Mr PP Rawat is a very good sophist. As for many of you old ex’s : why don’t you go watch a recent video from time to time. You’ll understand how you’ve been brainwashed! I find it very healthy going there from time to time. Could be a good part of the healing process.
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Date: Fri, Jan 9, 1998 at 16:15:26 (EST)
Poster: seymour_t@rocketmail.com
Email:
To: Nigel
Subject: Re: To Seymour & JW (science,morality..
Message:
Great stuff,Nigel. I am just browsing at the moment but will try and reply forthwith. Cheers, Seymour
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Date: Fri, Jan 9, 1998 at 17:03:02 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email: Joger02@aol.com
To: Mr Ex
Subject: Re: Sophism and BS philosophy (Re: To Seymour & JW (science,morality..)
Message:
As for many of you old ex’s : why don’t you go watch a recent video from time to time. You’ll understand how you’ve been brainwashed! I find it very healthy going there from time to time. Could be a good part of the healing process. Mr. Ex, how does one get access to videoa, I mean without actually buying them and enriching M's coffers or going to some event which might lead some premie to think one has returned to the fold? Do you have access to recent videos?
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Date: Fri, Jan 9, 1998 at 22:16:03 (EST)
Poster: CD
Email:
To: Mr Ex
Subject: Re: Sophism and BS philosophy (Re: To Seymour & JW (science,morality..)
Message:
M didn't redefine my definition of reality. He presented a very plausible discussion that aligned quite well with many ideas I had. The non-idea experience of Knowledge is not foreign to people who do see the limits of rational thought. I must admit I liked the notion of brain-washing being a benefit. Ridding ourselves of vision blockage and limitations imposed over the years for our so-called benefit. Opening the door of the subtle golden bird cage. A breath of fresh air.
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Date: Sat, Jan 10, 1998 at 04:32:20 (EST)
Poster: Mr Ex
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: Sophism and BS philosophy (Re: To Seymour & JW (science,morality..)
Message:
1/ The entrance at video conferences is FREE 2/ Whatever the 'premies' think about you is what they think I admit there could be a problem if you don't want to be socially 'compromised' A good talk with some of these people is also very enlightening from time to time. They might fear you, but they'll respect you. Unless you shout during the projection! Maybe you don't have to!
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Date: Sat, Jan 10, 1998 at 17:43:53 (EST)
Poster: Nigel
Email:
To: the elements,dna,
Subject: Re: and the smartness (Re: To Seymour & JW (science,morality..)
Message:
Hi Nigel, those guys are taking thier time to respond so I thought I would enjoy your thread. Jim brought up dawkins and I read the book 'river out of eden' excellent, mili read it too. DNA rules the lifeforms no doubt. This is a dna manufactured place as far as the living forms are concerned. However, without the elements from the periodic chart, helium, hydrogen, oxygen,ect. DNA cannot either come about, or build things, so it is dependent on another automatic system, the providing mechanism of the elements is another whole study. Dawkins makes a huge leap of judgement in my opinion when he claims that just because DNA is digital, that eliminates the possibility of a conciousness to exist and to have qualities of it's own. I don't see how to make that assumption, and he didn't back up his leap of logic in the book I read. DNA only does things that insures the survival of DNA. That right there is the measureing stick to see if anything is happening that falls outside of that DNA rule. I say, that there is no dna reason for the music humans make. There is no reason for the DNA to give the humans the mental capacity to blow up the whole dna world. all the rest of the creatures are on instinct, the humans would be too but the humans have free will, that is not a DNA provided thing. Since we are on free will mode, we are vulnerable to all sorts of behavioral excesses that other creatures seem to not have a problem with, or rather, their behaviors are explainable by the dna rule of everything happens just for dna survival. It works for everything, except the humans have the boundry in us where the dna bumps up against something else. Religious people sloppily try to extend the reality with thier imagination. The dna facts are the dna facts. To deny them is fantasy. However, in his fight and pride, dawkins battles the religious folks and commits a serious scientific blunder, mainly, having an ideology instead of being solely committed to rationality. The dna rules do not extend completely through the humans and he ignores that, perhaps for the same reason the religious ignore the full dna reality. Mainly, ego and pride and misunderstanding. There are many scientific theories and they are waiting to be proven or disproven. Both dawkins and the religious don't think they have a theory but they both do. I think it is a reasonable theory that a smartness to the existance is where the dna genious came from, that the elements came from the same smartness, that the smartness might be capable of monitoring the creation, the element system, the dna system, and it's creation, and it's subsequent human creation. That smartness that we have could spring from the same source of smartness, that smartness might have it's own system, and like the dna has it's basic operating rule, which is, dna survival, the smartness might have capacities and power as well. It might have constraints, but I think we can figure out the nature of the smartness if we look at what might be evidence. To me dawkins fascination with dna is understandable, but the area that has my interest now is the part of us which is outside of the dna rule. Thanks for the post, bb. You raise some good and important points. (We're probably off-topic here so I'll try to be brief). You are quite right that digital code (dna) cannot in itself explain consciousness. I don't know whether Dawkins ever said that dna's digital nature 'eliminates the possibility of consciousness', but in an interview last year he did say that 'consciousness is a big, big problem for science'. I wouldn't agree that dna has NOTHING to do with consciousness, since you can certainly use dna coding to specify which creatures possess at least some rudimentary consciousness. As to which species these would include, I don't know where you would draw the line, for the same reason that I can't be sure that YOU, or anyone else is conscious (no offence intended!). I'm not a big fan of Dawkins' later works, but The Blind Watchmaker is, nonetheless, wonderful - the second-best account of natural selection ever (after Darwin, of course). Some of the other writers I mentioned (Gould, Lewontin, Rose) have each taken Dawkins to task for his blatant reductionism (in this case genetic determinism). To save space and try and indicate where I'm coming from here, can I recommend two excellent books I think you will enjoy: - Steven Rose (neurochemist) - 'The Making of Memory' [Absolutely destroys digital accounts of conscious intelligence.] - RC Lewontin (immunologist) - 'The Doctrines of DNA' (or anything else by him) [Illustrates brilliantly the limitations of genetics in explaining behaviour.] - Roger Penrose (brilliant mathematician) tries to explain consciousness in terms of quantum effects, but I haven't read it so can't comment. As to 'The Smartness', it's an interesting idea, but I'm not sure it would qualify as a scientific theory, since you would appear to be trying to explain one unknown entity (consciousness) with a another unknown entity (The Smartness). You might equally identify this mysterious organising principle as God, The Wizard of Oz, or - yes - our own dear Fraud of the Universe. Besides, I don't like the word 'smartness' - it implies intelligence and intention. Given its apparent indifference to human suffering in the face of natural disasters etc., you might just as well call it The Bastardness. From a human perspective, the idea that our own small slice of conscious existence can somehow merge with this fundamental entity and thereby 'Get out of jail free', as it were, is I think just wishful thinking (of the kind I think CD favours). Only the void is infinite; substance and energy are finite and good law-abiding citizens. There may be some deep organising principle, but I don't see anybody's soul getting saved that way. Best wishes
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Date: Sat, Jan 10, 1998 at 22:25:07 (EST)
Poster: the
Email: b
To: Nigel
Subject: bastardness (Re: To Seymour & JW (science,morality..)
Message:
that was funny. Your points are good, to bad you will be busy for awhile. To bad for us that is. Thanks for the book tips. I'm not sure what a true british goodbye sounds like, but winnie the pooh or rather, christopher robin says pip pip cheerio! or is it tut tut looks like rain? Around here lately the goodbye is; later guy.
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Date: Tues, Jan 6, 1998 at 14:13:23 (EST)
Poster: Mindman
Email: :)@myarse
To: Little babies "Wah"
Subject: Suggestion
Message:
Why dont you all stick your d**ks in the power supply at the back of your computers. Then maybe we can all get some peace. Just Jokin......Don't actually do it!....dont blame me and make a web site called the " Burnt d*ck Appreciation Society" ....... for god sakes. "I mean...Hey man we trusted him, and now look at our d*cks" Wah Wah ........ Grow up. Hope this doesn't offend anyone!
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Date: Tues, Jan 6, 1998 at 14:56:23 (EST)
Poster: Mr. Oxymoron
Email: mu-Wah
To: Mindman
Subject: Wah-oh-Wah-Wah (Re: Suggestion)
Message:
Why dont you all stick your d**ks in the power supply at the back of your computers. Then maybe we can all get some peace. Just Jokin......Don't actually do it!....dont blame me and make a web site called the ' Burnt d*ck Appreciation Society' ....... for god sakes. 'I mean...Hey man we trusted him, and now look at our d*cks' Wah Wah ........ Grow up. Hope this doesn't offend anyone! oh - your going to get snob'd for that. ex-premies have a habit of looking down and up their noses at everything. it's one of their meditation techniques. in fact, premies have a habit of looking down and up their noses at everything. they'll put a divine ignore snob and pushah on you.
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Date: Tues, Jan 6, 1998 at 23:34:50 (EST)
Poster: Xena
Email:
To: Mindman
Subject: Re: Suggestion
Message:
We don't ALL have d**ks you know, you chauvanist SLIMBALL!!!
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Date: Wed, Jan 7, 1998 at 02:02:41 (EST)
Poster: Xeno
Email:
To: Xena
Subject: Re: phobia (Re: Suggestion)
Message:
Hi BB: Are you a slim ball too? to Slimeball: If you're going to be so clever and forthcoming, why not call a dick a dick. Why do you have to disguise it in a starry robe?
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Date: Wed, Jan 7, 1998 at 02:03:03 (EST)
Poster: Xeno
Email:
To: Xena
Subject: Re: phobia (Re: Suggestion)
Message:
Hi BB: Are you a slim ball too? to Slimeball: If you're going to be so clever and forthcoming, why not call a dick a dick? Why do you have to disguise it in a starry robe?
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Date: Wed, Jan 7, 1998 at 02:10:19 (EST)
Poster: agora
Email:
To: Xeno
Subject: Re: phobia (Re: Suggestion)
Message:
Sorry. Didn't mean to post that twice - slip of the finger. I didn't mean to imply that it was worth your attention two times. But for you budding proofreaders out there, you might notice a correction done by the time it got reposted. Seriously, though - I can understand abbreviating words that might not pass the censors, but on this forum, where bodily functions and secretions are quite openly discussed? And even hurled at each other?
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Date: Wed, Jan 7, 1998 at 07:33:47 (EST)
Poster: **
Email: bb
To: Xeno
Subject: ** (Re: Suggestion)
Message:
huh?
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Date: Wed, Jan 7, 1998 at 07:37:07 (EST)
Poster: which fear is
Email: bb
To: agora
Subject: agoraphobia anyway (Re: Suggestion)
Message:
I'm not the only one with ** on thier computer. when I used the d word I spelt it out.
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Date: Wed, Jan 7, 1998 at 08:29:06 (EST)
Poster: And On Anand Ji
Email: and_on_anand@yahoo.com
To: which fear is
Subject: Re: agoraphobia anyway (Re: Suggestion)
Message:
I'm not the only one with ** on thier computer. when I used the d word I spelt it out. Bill, the Agora was a place to sit around and discuss things openly, I believe. Greece or Rome, I forget. So agora-phobia is the fear of the agora -- of people gathered together, basically. Last time I saw you, I was walking; you stopped and we went to that indian restaurant, after you visited your client. -Mr. Chris
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Date: Wed, Jan 7, 1998 at 13:48:01 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email: dyke@work
To: Xena (no d*ck)
Subject: Re: Suggestion
Message:
We suggest you look in the mirror. ...SEE ..Just above your forehead. :-)
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Date: Wed, Jan 7, 1998 at 17:24:41 (EST)
Poster: ladoos
Email: bb
To: And On Anand Ji
Subject: from washington? (Re: Suggestion)
Message:
Well now, the only time I get to go to Indian restaurants is at events, I remember trying to go to one in washington and the only guess I can make about clients was I found two different guys and invited them to the program. I gave up third row seats so that I could put two new people there and one more in the back because he came in late. Maharaji showed that awful video of him being interviewed by someone over a table. I never liked that one even though I saw it a few times and I tried to get into it. I didn't like the other interview he gave either, or the two times he spoke from his office into the camera from malibu, at least one of those times was in the 70's. For some reason only the spontanious events had the vibe. or rather, the events in front of people. Actually, I paid that guy to come. I remember now, I said I needed an usher extra and I would pay him to sit in for an hour and be 'available' if I needed him. I was not an usher of course, I refuse to do anything at events. I don't go to events for any reason but for me. The rest of the clowns can find thier own seats and the way to the bathroom by themselves. I paid him 20 bucks and he seemed fine at the end. I don't know what happened to him. I've done wilder things of course. Do you mean washington? I can't imagine what clients might mean other than that. By the way, what do you reccomend, sql server, or nt? For a certification I mean. Unfortunately I remember the restaurant was not going to be open early enough and there is no way I risk being late to events. Or maybe one of those times I did get in? and were you there? You must be a gopi if I ate with you. If that was you you should have mentioned that around the holidays. Maybe you are thinking of some other state? miami, new york, I still have a good feeling about a lot, but for a type like me, I need to really walk with the power, and if the power has a form, or I think so, I listen intently and live off that input. So I end up being twisted out of shape if it isn't really the case, if the power is of a different nature, I need to be able to freely feel that out and figure out it's nature for myself. Certainly maharaji can do someone good if they are in some other frame of mind, and certainly there are a lot of folks that really dont want to even try to walk with the friend so to speak, so is it harmful in comparison to everything else? Depends on them. I assume this is CD
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Date: Wed, Jan 7, 1998 at 19:07:24 (EST)
Poster: And On Anand
Email: aoa
To: ladoos
Subject: Re: from washington? (Re: Suggestion)
Message:
Well now, the only time I get to go to Indian restaurants is at events, I remember trying to go to one in washington and the only guess I can make about clients was I found two different guys and invited them to the program. I gave up third row seats so that I could put two new people there and one more in the back because he came in late. Maharaji showed that awful video of him being interviewed by someone over a table. I never liked that one even though I saw it a few times and I tried to get into it. I didn't like the other interview he gave either, or the two times he spoke from his office into the camera from malibu, at least one of those times was in the 70's. For some reason only the spontanious events had the vibe. or rather, the events in front of people. Actually, I paid that guy to come. I remember now, I said I needed an usher extra and I would pay him to sit in for an hour and be 'available' if I needed him. I was not an usher of course, I refuse to do anything at events. I don't go to events for any reason but for me. The rest of the clowns can find thier own seats and the way to the bathroom by themselves. I paid him 20 bucks and he seemed fine at the end. I don't know what happened to him. I've done wilder things of course. Do you mean washington? I can't imagine what clients might mean other than that. By the way, what do you reccomend, sql server, or nt? For a certification I mean. Unfortunately I remember the restaurant was not going to be open early enough and there is no way I risk being late to events. Or maybe one of those times I did get in? and were you there? You must be a gopi if I ate with you. If that was you you should have mentioned that around the holidays. Maybe you are thinking of some other state? miami, new york, I still have a good feeling about a lot, but for a type like me, I need to really walk with the power, and if the power has a form, or I think so, I listen intently and live off that input. So I end up being twisted out of shape if it isn't really the case, if the power is of a different nature, I need to be able to freely feel that out and figure out it's nature for myself. Certainly maharaji can do someone good if they are in some other frame of mind, and certainly there are a lot of folks that really dont want to even try to walk with the friend so to speak, so is it harmful in comparison to everything else? Depends on them. I assume this is CD Let's put it this way: that computer has an 80386-dx-33 motherboard and a 220 meg hard disk, doesn't it? :) Emerald WEB? :)
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Date: Wed, Jan 7, 1998 at 19:09:52 (EST)
Poster: And On Anand
Email: aoa
To: --------------
Subject: Re: from washington? (Re: Suggestion)
Message:
Sorry I didn't trim that quoted matter more. I'm going out and got forgetful.
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Date: Wed, Jan 7, 1998 at 19:31:17 (EST)
Poster: Your
Email: bb
To: And On Anand
Subject: Linuxness (Re: Suggestion)
Message:
good lord, chris h. You are not cd. I thought you were omnicient when I first read this post. Actually I wrote that last one at the library. You are a fine addition to our little zany site. For anyones information, his linuxness was the most free spirited in hartford and the ashram guys were intent on crushing him. Mind you he broke no rules, it was that attitude of wild devotion really that the dark side of the force wanted removed. Anyway, hello what qouted material?
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Date: Thurs, Jan 8, 1998 at 01:23:07 (EST)
Poster: And On Anand Ji
Email: aoa
To: ---------
Subject: Re: Linuxness (Re: Suggestion)
Message:
good lord, chris h. You are not cd. I thought you were omnicient when I first read this post. Actually I wrote that last one at the library. You are a fine addition to our little zany site. For anyones information, his linuxness was the most free spirited in hartford and the ashram guys were intent on crushing him. Mind you he broke no rules, it was that attitude of wild devotion really that the dark side of the force wanted removed. Anyway, hello what qouted material? It is me. About a year ago, I did a search on maharaji and premies and whatnot and came up with zilch -- the only stuph available then was the stuph about the Radasoami hierarchy (boy'd I butcher that spelling!). I was really hoping for transcripts of satsang -- of maharaji's videos. And you're right -- that video they showed at the philly re-session was dismal -- that guy interviewing maharaji. I see the same problem with trying maharaji in the media, as I do in seeing trying O.J. there: it is entirely an inappropriate space, in which to do so. The most basic laws of evidence are violated here; the media is not up to the task. All we have here is anecdotal evidence. EmbarassmentWare. Harassment, really -- libel and slander are easy to achieve here. I am reminded of a Robert DeNiero (psychotic) film character, saying: "I've heard reports." Linus Torvalds should be given the krishna crown and coat, if they end up lynching Balyog. p.s. Give me a chance to recant! I confess it all! Notice in 1997 on Internet it is STILL the premies who persecute each other. It's true, they also support each other by the identical set of rules of Arbitrary Favorites they used in the original set. :)
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Date: Thurs, Jan 8, 1998 at 11:20:42 (EST)
Poster: Greetings and Salutations
Email: b
To: And On Anand Ji
Subject: Your Linuxness (Re: Suggestion)
Message:
I'll post you some of the recent LA event. You'll like some of it certainly. I think it is the lord issue that has everyone buzzing around.
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