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Ex-Premie.Org |
Forum II Archive #
3 |
From:
Dec 31, 1997 |
To:
Jan 20, 1998 |
Page:
1
Of:
5 |
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Mickey the Pharisee -:- Gullible Youth -:- Tues, Jan 20, 1998 at 16:34:08 (EST)
****** -:- Ian Warby UK Are you there? nt -:- Sun, Jan 18, 1998 at 09:34:40 (EST)
___Ian Warby UK -:- Re: Ian Warby UK Are you there? nt -:- Mon, Jan 19, 1998 at 15:00:13 (EST)
Free disciple -:- labor -:- Sun, Jan 18, 1998 at 01:09:05 (EST)
___- -:- free willy [zip!] NO TEXT -:- Sun, Jan 18, 1998 at 01:21:58 (EST)
___free?-slave -:- labor -:- Sun, Jan 18, 1998 at 01:43:18 (EST)
___volunteers -:- suck -:- Sun, Jan 18, 1998 at 02:05:04 (EST)
___volunteers -:- suck -:- Sun, Jan 18, 1998 at 02:05:19 (EST)
___sucking -:- service -:- Sun, Jan 18, 1998 at 02:11:09 (EST)
___OH BLA DI -:- OH BLA DA -:- Sun, Jan 18, 1998 at 21:04:39 (EST)
___!?!? -:- Re: service -:- Mon, Jan 19, 1998 at 17:24:49 (EST)
___Hu -:- mour -:- Mon, Jan 19, 1998 at 22:07:08 (EST)
___John K. -:- Re: suck -:- Tues, Jan 20, 1998 at 10:46:15 (EST)
___CD -:- Re: suck -:- Tues, Jan 20, 1998 at 17:34:25 (EST)
Bobby -:- Bear -:- Sun, Jan 18, 1998 at 00:20:01 (EST)
Nigel -:- This way Armageddon -:- Sat, Jan 17, 1998 at 18:47:33 (EST)
Sir David -:- Like, out of it man -:- Fri, Jan 16, 1998 at 21:56:41 (EST)
___Anon -:- Re: Like, out of it man -:- Sat, Jan 17, 1998 at 04:57:31 (EST)
___out to -:- launch -:- Sat, Jan 17, 1998 at 17:55:42 (EST)
___CD -:- Re: Like, out of it man -:- Sat, Jan 17, 1998 at 20:43:53 (EST)
___dvd -:- musical cd -:- Sat, Jan 17, 1998 at 22:46:35 (EST)
___And On Anand Ji -:- Re: launch -:- Sun, Jan 18, 1998 at 01:13:06 (EST)
___CD -:- Re: musical cd -:- Sun, Jan 18, 1998 at 01:34:07 (EST)
___bftb -:- Re: launch -:- Sun, Jan 18, 1998 at 10:52:16 (EST)
Nigel from the void -:- Castenada -:- Fri, Jan 16, 1998 at 21:20:27 (EST)
___John K. -:- Re: Castenada -:- Fri, Jan 16, 1998 at 22:18:44 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: Castenada -:- Sat, Jan 17, 1998 at 03:23:53 (EST)
___seymour -:- Re: Castenada -:- Sat, Jan 17, 1998 at 07:55:11 (EST)
___All of us -:- Re: Castenada -:- Sat, Jan 17, 1998 at 13:27:29 (EST)
___mili is -:- back -:- Sat, Jan 17, 1998 at 22:48:32 (EST)
___a lesson in grammar -:- Re: Castenada -:- Sun, Jan 18, 1998 at 00:40:59 (EST)
___God -:- Re: Castenada -:- Sun, Jan 18, 1998 at 20:25:41 (EST)
Katie -:- Hey, And and Anand Ji -:- Fri, Jan 16, 1998 at 20:38:44 (EST)
___And On Anand Ji -:- Re: Hey, And and Anand Ji -:- Sun, Jan 18, 1998 at 01:02:32 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: Hey, And on Anand Ji -:- Mon, Jan 19, 1998 at 00:08:22 (EST)
Brian -:- Jesus' New Web Page -:- Fri, Jan 16, 1998 at 07:50:02 (EST)
___Mr Ex -:- Re: Jesus' New Web Page -:- Fri, Jan 16, 1998 at 09:11:12 (EST)
___more than a little -:- bit wrong -:- Fri, Jan 16, 1998 at 10:06:50 (EST)
___John K. -:- Re: Jesus' New Web Page -:- Fri, Jan 16, 1998 at 11:15:34 (EST)
___bftb -:- Re: Jesus' New Web Page -:- Fri, Jan 16, 1998 at 12:23:01 (EST)
___Mr Ex -:- Lame & deluding philosophy -:- Fri, Jan 16, 1998 at 12:49:46 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: Jesus' New Web Page -:- Fri, Jan 16, 1998 at 16:18:48 (EST)
___Nigel from the void -:- Re: Lame & deluding philosophy -:- Fri, Jan 16, 1998 at 17:04:50 (EST)
___Brian -:- Re: Jesus' New Web Page -:- Fri, Jan 16, 1998 at 22:45:28 (EST)
___Mr Ex -:- You won't believe this! -:- Sat, Jan 17, 1998 at 03:31:28 (EST)
___bftb -:- Re: Jesus' New Web Page -:- Sat, Jan 17, 1998 at 14:36:53 (EST)
___bftb -:- Re: Jesus' New Web Page -:- Sat, Jan 17, 1998 at 14:37:07 (EST)
___bftb -:- Re: You won't believe this! -:- Sat, Jan 17, 1998 at 14:49:37 (EST)
___Brian -:- Re: You won't believe this! -:- Sat, Jan 17, 1998 at 15:20:22 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: Jesus' New Web Page -:- Sat, Jan 17, 1998 at 16:19:03 (EST)
___it ain't a -:- reprint -:- Sat, Jan 17, 1998 at 17:30:47 (EST)
___bftb -:- Re: Jesus' New Web Page -:- Sat, Jan 17, 1998 at 18:47:28 (EST)
___Katie -:- Thanks, bftb -:- Sun, Jan 18, 1998 at 19:09:01 (EST)
And On Anand Ji -:- Guru Oz-Maharaji -:- Thurs, Jan 15, 1998 at 21:26:15 (EST)
___John K. -:- Re: Guru Oz-Maharaji -:- Fri, Jan 16, 1998 at 12:21:44 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: Guru Oz-Maharaji -:- Fri, Jan 16, 1998 at 16:29:00 (EST)
___TO -:- TO -:- Sat, Jan 17, 1998 at 23:52:59 (EST)
___John K. -:- Re: Guru Oz-Maharaji -:- Sun, Jan 18, 1998 at 14:10:48 (EST)
___CD -:- Re: Guru Oz-Maharaji -:- Sun, Jan 18, 1998 at 18:01:44 (EST)
___CD -:- Re: Guru Oz-Maharaji -:- Sun, Jan 18, 1998 at 18:03:33 (EST)
___Ms. K. -:- Re: Guru Oz-Maharaji -:- Sun, Jan 18, 1998 at 19:19:09 (EST)
___John K. -:- Re: Guru Oz-Maharaji -:- Sun, Jan 18, 1998 at 22:19:11 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: Guru Oz-Maharaji -:- Sun, Jan 18, 1998 at 23:58:35 (EST)
___bftb -:- Re: Guru Oz-Maharaji -:- Mon, Jan 19, 1998 at 11:08:26 (EST)
___John K. -:- Re: Guru Oz-Maharaji -:- Mon, Jan 19, 1998 at 16:28:37 (EST)
___bftb -:- Re: Guru Oz-Maharaji -:- Mon, Jan 19, 1998 at 17:18:38 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: Guru Oz-Maharaji -:- Mon, Jan 19, 1998 at 21:02:18 (EST)
___bftb -:- Re: Guru Oz-Maharaji -:- Mon, Jan 19, 1998 at 21:20:49 (EST)
___nftv -:- Re: Guru Oz-Maharaji -:- Tues, Jan 20, 1998 at 20:35:21 (EST)
Mr Ex -:- Prempal ..... -:- Thurs, Jan 15, 1998 at 06:11:59 (EST)
___not the -:- kabalarians -:- Thurs, Jan 15, 1998 at 13:53:46 (EST)
___op -:- Re: Prempal ..... -:- Thurs, Jan 15, 1998 at 15:04:30 (EST)
___Sir David -:- Re: Prempal ..... -:- Thurs, Jan 15, 1998 at 19:29:24 (EST)
___John K. -:- Re: Prempal ..... -:- Thurs, Jan 15, 1998 at 21:58:34 (EST)
___odl -:- Re: Prempal ..... -:- Thurs, Jan 15, 1998 at 23:06:21 (EST)
___Brian -:- Re: Prempal ..... -:- Fri, Jan 16, 1998 at 07:23:54 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: Prempal ..... -:- Fri, Jan 16, 1998 at 16:48:09 (EST)
___O -:- P -:- Fri, Jan 16, 1998 at 21:10:51 (EST)
___Nigel from the void -:- Re: Prempal ..... -:- Fri, Jan 16, 1998 at 21:47:00 (EST)
___op -:- Re: Prempal ..... -:- Sat, Jan 17, 1998 at 02:45:43 (EST)
___bftb -:- Re: Prempal ..... -:- Sat, Jan 17, 1998 at 15:05:11 (EST)
___Nigel -:- Re: Prempal ..... -:- Sat, Jan 17, 1998 at 16:19:25 (EST)
___ultra materialistic -:- indeed -:- Sat, Jan 17, 1998 at 23:10:23 (EST)
___Not so void Nigel -:- Re: Prempal ..... -:- Sun, Jan 18, 1998 at 00:26:50 (EST)
___captain clearlight -:- Re: indeed -:- Sun, Jan 18, 1998 at 11:03:28 (EST)
___Capt. -:- beyond -:- Sun, Jan 18, 1998 at 13:26:50 (EST)
___op -:- Re: Prempal ..... -:- Tues, Jan 20, 1998 at 03:17:54 (EST)
Sir David -:- What's Kant got to do with it? -:- Wed, Jan 14, 1998 at 00:24:23 (EST)
___John K. -:- Re: What's Kant got to do with it? -:- Wed, Jan 14, 1998 at 11:12:30 (EST)
___Rick -:- Re: What's Kant got to do with it? -:- Wed, Jan 14, 1998 at 11:56:21 (EST)
___Mr Ex -:- Re: What's Kant got to do with it? -:- Wed, Jan 14, 1998 at 13:00:02 (EST)
___Sir David -:- Re: What's Kant got to do with it? -:- Wed, Jan 14, 1998 at 19:45:33 (EST)
___Sir David -:- Re: What's Kant got to do with it? -:- Wed, Jan 14, 1998 at 20:14:09 (EST)
___Sir David -:- Re: What's Kant got to do with it? -:- Thurs, Jan 15, 1998 at 00:40:20 (EST)
___seymour -:- Re: What's Kant got to do with it? -:- Fri, Jan 16, 1998 at 16:01:56 (EST)
___Sir David -:- Re: What's Kant got to do with it? -:- Fri, Jan 16, 1998 at 21:27:42 (EST)
___Seymour -:- Re: What's Kant got to do with it? -:- Sat, Jan 17, 1998 at 07:36:47 (EST)
___Seymour -:- Light -:- Sun, Jan 18, 1998 at 13:35:00 (EST)
Sir David -:- It could have been worse -:- Mon, Jan 12, 1998 at 01:23:58 (EST)
___John K. -:- Re: It could have been worse -:- Mon, Jan 12, 1998 at 10:33:23 (EST)
___And On Anand Ji -:- Re: It could have been worse -:- Mon, Jan 12, 1998 at 10:51:31 (EST)
___John K. -:- Re: It could have been worse -:- Mon, Jan 12, 1998 at 12:37:15 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: It could have been worse -:- Mon, Jan 12, 1998 at 12:55:12 (EST)
___Sir David -:- Re: It could have been worse -:- Mon, Jan 12, 1998 at 15:11:31 (EST)
___a. -:- Re: It could have been worse -:- Mon, Jan 12, 1998 at 20:26:40 (EST)
___Gregg -:- Re: It could have been worse -:- Mon, Jan 12, 1998 at 21:56:24 (EST)
And On Anand Ji -:- Ontology depletion zone -:- Sun, Jan 11, 1998 at 14:21:00 (EST)
___Anon -:- Re: Ontology depletion zone -:- Sun, Jan 11, 1998 at 16:18:36 (EST)
___A -:- Re: Ontology depletion zone -:- Sun, Jan 11, 1998 at 16:27:20 (EST)
___Sure, it's an adjustment, -:- But you are quite good at resiliance and pluck. -:- Sun, Jan 11, 1998 at 18:50:06 (EST)
___gregg -:- Re: Ontology depletion zone -:- Sun, Jan 11, 1998 at 21:36:24 (EST)
___gregg -:- Re: Ontology depletion zone -:- Sun, Jan 11, 1998 at 21:36:28 (EST)
___Djoi -:- Re: But you are quite good at resiliance and pluck. -:- Sun, Jan 11, 1998 at 22:29:06 (EST)
___Djoi -:- Re: But you are quite good at resiliance and pluck. -:- Sun, Jan 11, 1998 at 22:32:22 (EST)
___Joy -:- Re: But you are quite good at resiliance and pluck. -:- Sun, Jan 11, 1998 at 23:21:23 (EST)
___Sir David -:- Re: But you are quite good at resiliance and pluck. -:- Mon, Jan 12, 1998 at 00:54:16 (EST)
___And On Anand Ji -:- Re: Ontology depletion zone -:- Mon, Jan 12, 1998 at 01:51:13 (EST)
___And On Anand Ji -:- Re: Ontology depletion zone -:- Mon, Jan 12, 1998 at 02:56:31 (EST)
___And On Anand Ji -:- Re: But you are quite good at resiliance and pluck. -:- Mon, Jan 12, 1998 at 03:12:15 (EST)
___A -:- Re: But you are quite good at resiliance and pluck. -:- Mon, Jan 12, 1998 at 05:34:43 (EST)
___a -:- Re: But you are quite good at resiliance and pluck. -:- Mon, Jan 12, 1998 at 05:37:07 (EST)
___And On Anand Ji -:- Re: Ontology depletion zone -:- Mon, Jan 12, 1998 at 10:47:34 (EST)
___magic is conjered up, -:- reality is constant -:- Mon, Jan 12, 1998 at 16:45:06 (EST)
___colored -:- chicks -:- Mon, Jan 12, 1998 at 16:52:05 (EST)
___Mickey the Pharisee -:- Re: Ontology depletion zone -:- Mon, Jan 12, 1998 at 17:17:53 (EST)
___A -:- Re: chicks -:- Mon, Jan 12, 1998 at 20:31:13 (EST)
___John K. -:- Re: Ontology depletion zone -:- Mon, Jan 12, 1998 at 22:29:00 (EST)
___D'joie -:- Experience the magic. -:- Tues, Jan 13, 1998 at 00:11:03 (EST)
___D'Joie -:- Refer to "experience the magic" above -:- Tues, Jan 13, 1998 at 00:16:44 (EST)
___Mr Ex -:- Re: Ontology depletion zone -:- Tues, Jan 13, 1998 at 04:58:24 (EST)
___Mr Ex -:- What I mean to say ... -:- Tues, Jan 13, 1998 at 06:35:01 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: Ontology depletion zone -:- Tues, Jan 13, 1998 at 12:12:33 (EST)
___John K. -:- Re: Ontology depletion zone -:- Tues, Jan 13, 1998 at 13:59:18 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: Ontology depletion zone -:- Tues, Jan 13, 1998 at 18:09:14 (EST)
seymour -:- Nigel - don't go away just yet. -:- Sun, Jan 11, 1998 at 13:37:05 (EST)
___Nigel from the void -:- Re: Nigel - don't go away just yet. -:- Tues, Jan 13, 1998 at 20:28:48 (EST)
seymour -:- moving on..revisited -:- Sun, Jan 11, 1998 at 13:31:14 (EST)
Terry -:- Bye -:- Sat, Jan 10, 1998 at 14:08:05 (EST)
___this ain't fer -:- everybody -:- Sat, Jan 10, 1998 at 18:14:19 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: Bye -:- Sat, Jan 10, 1998 at 19:21:17 (EST)
___John K. -:- Re: Bye -:- Sat, Jan 10, 1998 at 20:54:51 (EST)
___Sir David -:- Re: Bye -:- Sat, Jan 10, 1998 at 21:57:23 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: Bye -:- Sat, Jan 10, 1998 at 22:56:57 (EST)
___Mike -:- Re: Bye -:- Sun, Jan 11, 1998 at 09:56:07 (EST)
___Mike -:- What forum have you been on? -:- Sun, Jan 11, 1998 at 10:12:19 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: Bye -:- Sun, Jan 11, 1998 at 11:18:31 (EST)
___bftb -:- Re: Bye -:- Sun, Jan 11, 1998 at 15:02:41 (EST)
___Mickey the Pharisee -:- Re: Bye -:- Sun, Jan 11, 1998 at 17:39:49 (EST)
___John K. -:- Re: Bye -:- Sun, Jan 11, 1998 at 19:42:41 (EST)
___a -:- hardbodies -:- Mon, Jan 12, 1998 at 01:24:36 (EST)
___And On Anand Ji -:- Re: What forum have you been on? -:- Mon, Jan 12, 1998 at 03:30:50 (EST)
___not so -:- hard bodies -:- Mon, Jan 12, 1998 at 16:58:55 (EST)
AWS -:- Another Perspective -:- Sat, Jan 10, 1998 at 12:20:33 (EST)
___Mr Ex -:- Re: Another Perspective -:- Mon, Jan 12, 1998 at 05:05:18 (EST)
___A -:- Another Nother Perspective, Not Unrelated to Nuemenons, or nuemonae -:- Mon, Jan 12, 1998 at 06:17:30 (EST)
___Mr Ex -:- Re: Another Nother Perspective, Not Unrelated to Nuemenons, or nuemonae -:- Mon, Jan 12, 1998 at 09:35:09 (EST)
___Annie -:- fanny bo banny -:- Mon, Jan 12, 1998 at 17:13:40 (EST)
___Mr Ex -:- Re: fanny bo banny -:- Tues, Jan 13, 1998 at 03:34:25 (EST)
___Annie -:- Response to Mr. X's Challenging Questions -:- Wed, Jan 14, 1998 at 06:45:19 (EST)
___Mr Ex -:- Re: Response to Mr. X's Challenging Questions -:- Wed, Jan 14, 1998 at 11:48:29 (EST)
___op -:- Re: Response to Mr. X's Challenging Questions -:- Wed, Jan 14, 1998 at 13:07:11 (EST)
___Mr Ex -:- Typical premie -:- Thurs, Jan 15, 1998 at 04:43:54 (EST)
Brian -:- Thousand-year Lease -:- Sat, Jan 10, 1998 at 07:12:26 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: Thousand-year Lease -:- Tues, Jan 13, 1998 at 12:17:22 (EST)
Date: Tues, Jan 20, 1998 at 16:34:08 (EST)
Poster: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net
To: Everyone
Subject: Gullible Youth
Message:
While perusing the Ex-premie White Pages, I noticed that the majority of people registered there became Premies at the age of nineteen; I myself joined-up at that age. I've noticed that this is the case with many cult groups; their ranks are filled with nineteen year-olds. Even St. Augustine was nineteen when he became a Manichee, the dangerous cult of the fourth and fifth centuries!
I'm curious; are the current aspirants of EV or whatever they're calling it now still around nineteen years of age, or are they recruiting from older or younger age groups? Does anyone know? I understand why people join-up at that age, I'm just wondering if the current crop of nineteen year-olds are as gullible as I was.
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Date: Sun, Jan 18, 1998 at 09:34:40 (EST)
Poster: ******
Email: +++
To: Everyone
Subject: Ian Warby UK Are you there? nt
Message:
/
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Date: Mon, Jan 19, 1998 at 15:00:13 (EST)
Poster: Ian Warby UK
Email: !!!
To: ******
Subject: Re: Ian Warby UK Are you there? nt
Message:
No.
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Date: Sun, Jan 18, 1998 at 01:09:05 (EST)
Poster: Free disciple
Email: **
To: Everyone
Subject: labor
Message:
'Guru Maharaj Ji named the third day of the Millenium 73 festival, 'The Founding Convention
of Divine United Organisation,' the organisation
that will feed the world and provide clothing
and shelter for all humanity. The dream of
mankind to end suffering and bring peace will
become a reality through DUO.'
Steve Ornstien, food coordinator for Millenium
'We are getting the food as close to the source
as possible, like getting wheatberries instead of
flour and peanuts instead of peanutbutter, and
making our own products. Diciples will be
developing thier own farms also, providing food
entirely for the cost of raising it with no
extra charge for labor.'
'The mission has recieved distribution rights
from several major building suppliers. 'we can
buy building supplies in much larger quantities than the average contractor, distribute it
nationally, and build top quality housing at
half the cost of materials and with free disciple
labor,' commented Brad Griffin.'
'Clothing outlets through out the country can
supply disciples with clothes at one third the
cost as DUO purchases in bulk and disciples
work in the Divine Sales stores. DUO will
be able to provide inexpensive clothing to
everybody who needs it from the community through
its' stores.'
'Businesses will be instituted across America,
Charging less than the average company, the job
can be done entirely for the cost of materials
and the minimal living expenses of the workers.
The disciples have discovered that it takes very
little to live comfortably. 'With the knowledge,
we have everything we desire to make us happy
with the holy name revealed by Guru Maharaj Ji.'
'All profits from the various companies will
be funneled to those who cannot provide thier
own food, shelter, and clothing.'
In this way DUO can very soon feed impoverished
peoples in other countries through thier own
DUO systems.'
'Duo is an organization of love that can bring
true peace to the earth.'
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Date: Sun, Jan 18, 1998 at 01:21:58 (EST)
Poster: -
Email:
To: +
Subject: free willy [zip!] NO TEXT (Re: labor)
Message:
^
Back To Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Sun, Jan 18, 1998 at 01:43:18 (EST)
Poster: free?-slave
Email: F.Labor
To: Free disciple
Subject: labor (Re: labor)
Message:
I am touched by the generosity of those who DID many
years of free labor. However, in stateing above,
'All profits from the various companies will
be funneled to those who cannot provide thier own food shelter and clothing.' ---- Little did anyone suspect
that after the money got funneled, there was no extra
after it hit maharaji and raja ji. Two guys who 'cannot
provide thier own food shelter and clothing.'
It took many thousands of us to just barely support one
desire crazed human.
Has the statute of limitations run out on that one?
Just in case someone want's to blame that one on PAM,
or --the people AROUND the innocent maharaji,--
here is an interview with bob Mishler from then;
DT: When did guru maharaj ji first start talking about
divine united organization?
Mishler: It was just after Hans Jayanti 1972 in India, after
all the disciples had gone back to America. So it was in
december of 1972 that guru maharaj ji began to meet
with Gary Girard and me daily, and go over the points,
the reasons, why we neede DUO and what DUO would do,
how we would begin to initiate the program and so on.
AND THEN OF COURSE, HE DICTATED THIS INFORMATION TO US,
AND HAD US TAKE IT ALL DOWN AND WRITE IT UP.'
'A lot of people find it remarkable that we feed the average
person in our community on $00.75 to $1.00 a day.
'We are working in the same way with all of the other
basic needs besides food, clothing and shelter. All
of the savings that we make by this cooperation
within our own community were able to use in the service of humanity.'
Again, not one charitable organization ever got a dime
from us via this money funnel and it only went to
guru maharaj ji and his endless desires.
This reveals how deeply he viewed us as free labor.
And to pretend to be the lord of all and the source of
love also!!
It's just totally ---------WHAT? evil?
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Date: Sun, Jan 18, 1998 at 02:05:04 (EST)
Poster: volunteers
Email: free labor
To: free?-slave
Subject: suck (Re: labor)
Message:
Of course his house was just redone from foundation to
top--absolutely totally, and it was of course free
labor that did the bulk of it, and the ones that were
paid were paid 50 dollars a week. Just the facts mam.
It took what, 10 years? And nothing was to great for the place either.
I know someone who spent most of that 10 years in the
garage. Some others who worked there for the 50$ a week
said all they could comment about the guy in the garage
is 'what planet is he from?' and laugh. He was a truly
fine guy before. Of course darshan is otherworldly I
suppose.
I imagine guru maharaj ji was referring to him as well
as the rest of us when he commented at the coordinators
conference in 95 or 96 that 'volunteers suck'.
So much for our DUO efforts to the one person who
benefitted.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Sun, Jan 18, 1998 at 02:05:19 (EST)
Poster: volunteers
Email: free labor
To: free?-slave
Subject: suck (Re: labor)
Message:
Of course his house was just redone from foundation to
top--absolutely totally, and it was of course free
labor that did the bulk of it, and the ones that were
paid were paid 50 dollars a week. Just the facts mam.
It took what, 10 years? And nothing was to great for the place either.
I know someone who spent most of that 10 years in the
garage. Some others who worked there for the 50$ a week
said all they could comment about the guy in the garage
is 'what planet is he from?' and laugh. He was a truly
fine guy before. Of course darshan is otherworldly I
suppose.
I imagine guru maharaj ji was referring to him as well
as the rest of us when he commented at the coordinators
conference in 95 or 96 that 'volunteers suck'.
So much for our DUO efforts to the one person who
benefitted.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Sun, Jan 18, 1998 at 02:11:09 (EST)
Poster: sucking
Email: free labor
To: volunteers
Subject: service (Re: labor)
Message:
Of course maybe I have him wrong when he says
'volunteers suck' Maybe he is referring to his
valet, yes, and his mistress, yes, and who knows what other
volunteers have sucked. Servicing thier lord.
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Date: Sun, Jan 18, 1998 at 21:04:39 (EST)
Poster: OH BLA DI
Email:
To: sucking
Subject: OH BLA DA (Re: labor)
Message:
LIFE GOES ON
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Date: Mon, Jan 19, 1998 at 17:24:49 (EST)
Poster: !?!?
Email:
To: sucking
Subject: Re: service (Re: labor)
Message:
Of course maybe I have him wrong when he says
'volunteers suck' Maybe he is referring to his
valet, yes, and his mistress, yes, and who knows what other
volunteers have sucked. Servicing thier lord.
Hey guy, real funny stuff (har, har) but a tad inappropriate, wouldn't you say? All that porn stuff you've been living on here on the fabulous I'net is obviously getting to you. Why don't you get out and see a bit of the world. You know, start feeding your mind things that are a little more wholesome. Hey I know, why don't you just get a real life instead of drivelling it all out here!
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Date: Mon, Jan 19, 1998 at 22:07:08 (EST)
Poster: Hu
Email: **
To: !?!?
Subject: mour (Re: labor)
Message:
Sorry to not support your assumption, but I have not once
gone to a porn site.
I have never considered it a spectator sport. But of course
it's fine for those who choose it, free will and all.
Having spent 24 years under the tutalage of maharaji
I guess your reccomendation to 'get a real life' is just a
bit late.
The point of posting info is to recognise the facts of
the track record of maharaji. He is fully intent
on having others take my place. In his selfishly based
actions in this world, he is wasteing the time and lives of
others, he has been working his rap and trip for years
and he hopes all of his skeletons will stay in the closet.
Maybe YOUR god wants the info out.
Maybe it is irresposible for me to just turn on a dime and
walk away without first doing my fair share to just tell
the truth so the next guy will be able to make a reasonable
assessment of what he is getting involved with instead
of just ASSUMEING that maharaji is the lord like he STILL
is trying to portray.
I guess you found humor in the post, well, there are all
kinds of senses of humor I guess, Me, I felt sickened
by the recognition of how the sincere efforts of
open hearted ones were just drained into a black hole
of greed and falsehood.
And to top it all off, he was our lord. Yep, I don't know
your story, but maybe you should take a look at your
past and do an assessment.
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Date: Tues, Jan 20, 1998 at 10:46:15 (EST)
Poster: John K.
Email:
To: volunteers
Subject: Re: suck (Re: labor)
Message:
Do you or does anyone have the context in which M said that 'volunteers suck'?
Seems like an odd thing to say, and I am wondering what he was talking about when he said it.
However, now that I think of it, my memory of being in the 'master-devotee' relationship is that the highlight of the devotee's life is when the master insults the devotee. Because at that point the master is at least paying attention to the devotee which is what the devotee craves and lives for - attention from the master.
And of course devotees all want to grow and how else can the devotee grow unless the master points out their weaknesses?
I think that is the one aspect of that whole scene (indeed at the time it seemed like the only aspect) that I am most happy to be finished with. The worship of the guru and the degradation of my own self.
But to get back to the volunteers suck statement, that could have been just the friendly insulting which the master has been giving to the devotee since before Krishna and Ram.
And if the devotees love it, what's the harm?
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Date: Tues, Jan 20, 1998 at 17:34:25 (EST)
Poster: CD
Email:
To: John K.
Subject: Re: suck (Re: labor)
Message:
M recently said that it was the efforts of the premies that had made spreading of Knowledge and the events possible.
He did make a comment a while back about how sometimes disorganized volunteers can be a bit of a mess.
Ever performed with a disorganized group?
As far as old DUO, I remember one case where a bunch of us went to an old ladies house and cleaned it up for her.
The kitchen was the worse mess I have ever seen and made me feel like pucking.
We set it right.
At the time I felt good being able to help out.
Can't people take responsibility for what they have done good to be helpful in their own lives?
My impression of M these days is that he still inspires the best in people.
Experience your heart and view others as human beings no matter what their nationaility, race, religion or any other measure of difference to yourself.
Live your life manifesting the joy that you can experience in your existance.
CD
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Date: Sun, Jan 18, 1998 at 00:20:01 (EST)
Poster: Bobby
Email: b
To: Everyone
Subject: Bear
Message:
Hello there Robert,
Since your around, why don't you drop in?
Sure it got red hot for a while, we ALL took a
rest it seems. But you are one of the originals
and certainly you are welcome back.
I would say the same to Mili but I think a break
might be just what the doctor ordered for him.
I would like him to mention his pending
engagement the next time he posts, or come
out of the closet, whatever.
He is so prolific it must be hard for him to stay
away. Anyway, no one else thinks like you do
around here and so you are just going to have to
come back. Mili can be on vacation and OP can
increase her postings and the base is covered,
but there is only one you.
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Date: Sat, Jan 17, 1998 at 18:47:33 (EST)
Poster: Nigel
Email:
To: Everyone
Subject: This way Armageddon
Message:
Definitely my last post for a bit.
The following report comes from The Guardian (UK), January 17. It is the first instance I am aware of, of a mass suicide waiting to happen (while it is at least still possible to dive in there and get the kids out...)
I'll pass it on without further comment, save to describe the accompanying four photographs:
(1) Shows Mount Teide - a volcanic heap without a single blade of grass, let alone a few trees to give an air of romantic quest.
(2) Heide Fittkau-Garthe, the movement's guru. She looks a bit Judy Collins-ish: long-haired, cheeky sort of smile and dimple-cheeked. Your mother would approve.
(3) A middle-aged lady cult member sitting in a police car, her face a picture of blissed-out abandon. She looks like a premie remembering 'the word'.
(4) A photo of a Solar Templar, dead and wrapped in a sheet.
>
THIS WAY ARMAGEDDON
Is this the road to hell? Members of a German cult which is determined to commit mass suicide on Mount Teide have been thwarted twice. Will it be third time unlucky?
Special investigation by Rory Carroll with Adela Gooch in Madrid, Denis Staunton in Berlin and Jonathon Watts in Tokyo.
'Tonight, as the sun slides into the Atlantic and casts Tenerife into darkness, the men from Policia Local will flick on their headlights and trundle towards Mount Teide. The chatter from bars and pounding disco beats will fade into silence as their white Ford and Seat patrol cars begin ascending the 12,198ft volcano.
Trees quickly thin out, leaving only a barren landscape on either side of the narrowing dirt track. The policemen will keep peering into the blackening gloom, looking for signs of life, fearing they will find only death.
It is here that a doomsday cult has chosen to commit mass suicide. Come twilight, 13 men, 13 women and five children, members of a German cult, could emerge from the shadows around the summit and drink from drums of poison. If all goes according to plan, they will make a clearing among the rocks, lie down, close their eyes and slip away, leaving behind 31 corpses, shattered families and a catastrophe for the authorities.
That is the grim outcome the Spanish police must now try to avoid. The challenge is not a theoretical one: on January 7, after months of monitoring, they did just that. Tipped off by Interpol, they raided an organic farm in Arafo, near Santa Cruz, the island's capital and arrested 32 cult members, some huddled in tents, just hours, it is thought, before a planned mass suicide. A "last supper" with suspected poison was removed.
Then last Monday there was a second alert when reports came through that some of the cult members had phones relatives back in Germany to say a final goodbye. This time the Spanish police took no chances and rounded up the group, now reduced to 16 adults and three children, and took them into protective custody overnight. But in Spain committing suicide is not an offence, and on Tuesday morning the group, all German except for one Spaniard, were released for a second time. They promptly piled into taxis and returned to Arafo, where the eyes of the world now watch, waiting for them to emulate the departed souls of Heaven's Gate, Solar Temple, Waco and Jonestown.
The police are desperate. The cult is law-abiding and entitled to go about its business without harassment. "We can monitor the situation but we can't control people's will," an officer involved in the case said. "What do you do? Follow each person into bed, into the bathroom? That's impossible. But then, if they do succeed, who gets the blame..."
A patrol car stand guard outside the farmhouse but 24-hour surveillance on individual members is impossible. And if they were spotted about to drink poison, what would the police shout? "Stop or I shoot"? Not much of a threat when members believe the apocalypse is nigh and that an alien spaceship will land on the Teide volcano and take their souls to rebirth in the solar system of the star Sirius.
So it has become a race against the clock. The end of the world, the cult believed, was due at 8pm sharp on January 8. It clearly didn't happen then. But how much longer will it be before the group tries, successfully, to commit collective suicide?
Whether it comes to this hinges on one issue: do the 31 members really believe, without an ounce of doubt, that a spaceship will pick up their bodies? That the world is about to end? That God has taken human form in the portly body of a 57-year old German psychologist, Heide Fittkau-Garthe, their inspiration and leader?
Yes, seems to be the answer. And they say it calmly, reasonably, without bulging eyes or foam at the mouth. Most are, after all, decent, university educated, middle-aged, middle-class Germans. Space cadets don't come more respectable.
Their road to Mount Teide began in crowded halls around Germany where Fittkau-Garthe, a respected lecturer at Hamburg University and a TV pundit, gave seminars to captivated businessmen on management training, meditation and dealing with personal trauma. Unknown to most of her audiences, she drifted into the Indian Brahma Kumaris sect before leaving the university in 1993. Divorced, with a 21-year-old son, she developed a divine cult around her own person and called herself Aida, or the source.
She recruited a hardcore of 25 disciples from her seminars and divided her time between Hamburg and Tenerife, where she owns the farmhouse at which the cult members were discovered last week. She told them the unresolved past of wandering souls was the source of all aggression. Cassettes recorded her ideas in a soothing voice against a background of synthesiser music.
Neighbours in Tenerife described Dr Fittkau-Garthe as a pleasant woman who spent regular periods on the farm. She herself claimed her visitors were patients who had come to the Canaries for therapeutic rest.
Enrique Torres, her lawyer, says members of the group were on holiday and denied any intention to commit suicide. In this account, Fittkau-Garthe is a humanitarian providing safe haven for abused women and people with psychological problems. But this fails to explain why, according to relatives of disciples, some members had begun by last year to call her God. Or why she said the world would end on January 8 and that she would protect them.
Inspired by the Order of the Solar Temple, whose followers carried out mass suicides on Canada, France and Switzerland, they didn't intend to be among the doomed losers left on Earth. Sirius beckoned. It was simply a question of hitching a ride with aliens via ritual suicide. Beam me up potty, as the Sun said.
And they're not even mad, or even necessarily gullible. According to some mental health professionals who study cults, they are just like us: worried at the direction society is taking, not sure what they want out of life and vaguely dissatisfied with job and family.
Barry Hart, a clinical psychologist, says the typical cult member was often bright and had potential earning power - which is why they were recruited. "It's the sons and daughters of people who read the Guardian, not the Sun. They turn their backs on orthodox religion but have needs for spiritual growth, a genuine search for meaning in life. Crazy people don't usually get into cults."
Dr Hart estimates that Britain contains up to 500 cults with up to 500,000 members. The approaching millenium is likely to swell that number.
Neither coincidence nor cheaper rents result in so many cults locating in remote areas. Cut off from friends, family and the outside world, members become rationed to one source of information, the leader. Often with no TV, no radio, no newspapers, there is nothing to question the increasingly doom-laden world-view they are fed.
Chris Soames did not quite fit the bill when he drifted into the London Church of Christ in 1990, but the Spanish police combing Mount Teide are unlikely to take comfort from his story: "People think you become a slave with no mind of your own; that simply isn't the case. You have to be more active and believe what you are doing is right."
Despite retaining links with his family and resenting the oppressive hierarchy, Chris, who left the cult three years ago, was at one stage willing to die for it. "We planned to smuggle [ourselves] into Iran to seek converts. If we were caught we would've been killed, but I didn't care because I felt absolutely sure we were right."
Such cast-iron certainty among cult members is what spurs the patrols around Mount Teide and makes Dr Hart pessimistic: "The Spanish police will not prevent people killing themselves. If they want to do it, they'll do it."
Any lingering doubts in the cultist's minds about the wisdom of suicide are likely to have evaporated the moment they were arrested. A Roman battering ram persuaded 1,000 Jews at Masada to commit suicide in AD73. Fears that visiting congressmen heralded the break up of Jonestown prompted the Reverend Jim Jones and 914 followers to turn the Guyana jungle into their graveyard in November 1978. A law enforcement siege signalled a conflagration for David Koresh and his Branch Davidians at Waco, Texas, in April 1993.
Such precedents will hardly warm the hearts of the Santa Cruz police officers. The first glimpse of their blue shirts bursting in the door could have been confirmation to Fittkau-Garthe's disciples that exit from the cosmic set was finally set.
The one ace held by police is Fittkau-Garthe herself. She remains in custody, charged with incitement to suicide, which is an offence under Spanish law. Unless she really is God she is not able to communicate with her cult. Conditioned to obedience and dependency, what do they do now? Stick with plan A and head for Mount Teide? Sit tight and wait? Get a good lawyer? Some reports say half of the sect have returned to Germany. But even if true the remnants, judging by precedent, remain a serious liability to Tenerife's fun-loving reputation.
Jehovah's Witnesses have stayed loyal through several false Armageddons. More worrying still, many followers of the Aum Supreme Truth cult have rallied to their imprisoned leader, Shoko Asahara, since the 1995 Sarin gas attack on a Tokyo subway, and more than a third of those members put in prison have returned to the cult, fearful that they would go to hell if they remained outside it. Heaven's Gate, whose members committed suicide en route to a spaceship trailing the Halle-Bopp comet, is back in business recruiting on the Internet.
So tonight policemen will resume their vigil on top of Mount Teide. Standing amid the rocks and boulders, the archipelago splayed out below will melt into the darkness from 7pm as lights from bars and discos begin to glimmer. Even in winter Sirius, a solar system away, can be seen clearly. Tenerife's tourist board says it looks very pretty.
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Date: Fri, Jan 16, 1998 at 21:56:41 (EST)
Poster: Sir David
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: Everyone
Subject: Like, out of it man
Message:
Nigel's remarks below prompts me to ask, has anyone here had an out of the body experience? You know, the sort where you float up out of your body and look down at yourself. This subject has always fascinated me and I'd be keen to hear of any of your experiences.
I've nevr had one myself. There are quite a few people I've met who've had an OBE. None of them were premies or ex-premies. I'm not equating such phenomena as being anything to do with K or M. On the contrary. But I do think that if someone has a true OBE and actually see themselves from a different physical location then it would prove to them that their consciousness does exist outside of their body.
OK, I'll get back into my padded cell now, straight jacket on!
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Date: Sat, Jan 17, 1998 at 04:57:31 (EST)
Poster: Anon
Email:
To: Sir David
Subject: Re: Like, out of it man
Message:
Nigel's remarks below prompts me to ask, has anyone here had an out of the body experience? You know, the sort where you float up out of your body and look down at yourself. This subject has always fascinated me and I'd be keen to hear of any of your experiences.
I've nevr had one myself. There are quite a few people I've met who've had an OBE. None of them were premies or ex-premies. I'm not equating such phenomena as being anything to do with K or M. On the contrary. But I do think that if someone has a true OBE and actually see themselves from a different physical location then it would prove to them that their consciousness does exist outside of their body.
OK, I'll get back into my padded cell now, straight jacket on!
I visited a very elderly gentleman who surprised me (he was an ex-fighter pilot and not given to telling fanciful stories) at breakfast one day at his home.
We were discussing his health when he told me that he occasionally 'blacked out' and this was troubling him. One day, he said, an extraordinary thing happened. "I was standing by the sink preparing my breakfast when I evidently passed out and found my-self looking down at myself from the ceiling, lying on the floor here." he then added "It was perfectly extraordinary, I quite clearly observed nurse come in through the back door and come to my help as I lay there...I have never had any explanation for this."
I guess that old veteren could claim an OBE to add to his DFC and other medals!
Interesting subject though. I am very wary of new-agers and those who go on about their various cosmic experiences. This down to earth old chap was one of the only people I have heard recount such an experience who I wholeheartedly believed.
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Date: Sat, Jan 17, 1998 at 17:55:42 (EST)
Poster: out to
Email: b
To: Anon
Subject: launch (Re: Like, out of it man)
Message:
I knew a premie nurse who worked in the cardiac unit
at a hospital and she said they would occasionally
get a person who flatlines briefly and then they
restart thier hearts and they would have some out of
body experience. It would never scare the person, at least
none of the ones she met.
But I met a guy in hartford who wrote a book and interviewed
others and unfortunately obsessed over it.
We were put here in a body and all the spiritual eastern
types want to imply that regular old being alive
is somehow inferior to some alleged cosmic experience
that is only gotten through some mantra or method
or long term practise but mainly the worst part of thier
rap is that we should even be trying for some other
temporary experience. It is insulting to the god
that created this body that supposid religious types
claim that living here happy is not the goal.
They are all missing the whole point of a body.
Not to escape it, not to downplay the amazing functioning
body of ours, not to ignore it and look at it as an obstacle
or whatever, not to try to leave it ahead of time for
some imagined spiritual glory. Not to be able to talk
about it over and over for decades while niether you
or anyone else listening can do it again. bobby.
The whole fraud of the eastern spiritual trips is
based on the false ASSUMPTION that can realize god.
Show me one person who has done it please.
No don't, I will just prove they haven't.
I mean, weather it's good when you leave your body or
not makes no difference-- we are dying either way.
Why don't any of these religions say just enjoy your life?
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Date: Sat, Jan 17, 1998 at 20:43:53 (EST)
Poster: CD
Email:
To: Anon
Subject: Re: Like, out of it man
Message:
Yes Anon, music does play an important part.
I prefer a sweet feeling revealed by a good song to an OBE.
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Date: Sat, Jan 17, 1998 at 22:46:35 (EST)
Poster: dvd
Email: b
To: CD
Subject: musical cd (Re: Like, out of it man)
Message:
cd,
why don't you put another link to your web page
here or email it.
did you go the full nt route or take the two windows
tests. also, what were your other two certs?
what is the average nt engineer salary.
I'm taking to it like a fish to water.
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Date: Sun, Jan 18, 1998 at 01:13:06 (EST)
Poster: And On Anand Ji
Email: aoa
To: --------
Subject: Re: launch (Re: Like, out of it man)
Message:
I mean, weather it's good when you leave your body or not makes no difference-- we are dying either way. Why don't any of these religions say just enjoy your life?And kiss your best girl.
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Date: Sun, Jan 18, 1998 at 01:34:07 (EST)
Poster: CD
Email:
To: dvd
Subject: Re: musical cd (Re: Like, out of it man)
Message:
cd,
why don't you put another link to your web page
here or email it.
did you go the full nt route or take the two windows
tests. also, what were your other two certs?
what is the average nt engineer salary.
I'm taking to it like a fish to water.
DVD,
Its hard to get email delivered without an address.
CD
www.cdickey.com
webmaster@cdickey.com
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Date: Sun, Jan 18, 1998 at 10:52:16 (EST)
Poster: bftb
Email:
To: out to
Subject: Re: launch (Re: Like, out of it man)
Message:
Well you may like the EV religion.Their central theme is 'just enjoy your life' In fact the religions leader has been quoted saying"I don't want to float away" in reference to certain humans desire to astral travel or force an obe.
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Date: Fri, Jan 16, 1998 at 21:20:27 (EST)
Poster: Nigel from the void
Email:
To: Everyone
Subject: Castenada
Message:
Listen, I'm sorry. The modem was supposed to go back last Monday. I've overrun on my (third) free month's trial of the Internet (different company each time), my phone bill is going to cripple me and so will the divorce costs once the phone bill has arrived. Besides all that, I started writing a book exactly two years ago this week, but since I found this forum and the pleasure of exchanging ideas and abuse with its regular, mostly friendly, contributors, I've become seriously hooked on Premorabilia and the creative juices seem to have dried up.
Worse, I'm spending more and more of my waking hours thinking about Guru Maharaj ji. Hell, I'd almost forgotten the old tart even existed, but now I'm wasting too much time on him all over again and am constantly reliving the lost, stupid years. Now, of course, I pronounce it 'Gooroo Maharadge Gee' – like the BBC newsreader enunciated his name when the 'boy-god' came to London about 27 years back, when I was happy and innocent and still in school uniform. It's good therapy: say it out loud... 'Gooroo Maharadge Gee' . The schoolboy said 'Not for me, pal'. Shame the adult didn't do likewise a few years later.
I wonder if he ever thinks of me. (sigh)
So I promised myself a break to do some writing, earn some money, pay some bills, then later on sort out a proper Internet account. And yet here I am, still. The modem goes back on Monday. Promise.
But the reason for this post:
In the thread below (Katie & And on Anand ji) the name of Carlos Castenada is mentioned. I've started a separate thread so as not to distract from Katie's question. Castenada had a profound influence on me too before m ever came along. I wonder how many other ex-premies made a link, conscious or unconscious, between m's Knowledge and Don Juan's 'becoming a man of Knowledge'?
Did you also know that Castenda's Don Juan books are one of the greatest hoaxes of all time? (four million books sold)
- even greater for the fact that they are still a great read even when you know that Castenada was just this Peruvian student kid, who, knowing nothing at all about the Yaqui indians, sat in a university library for a few years and MADE IT ALL UP! Never even went to Mexico. It earned him his doctorate in anthropology, apparently. If the University of California ever decide to strip him of that academic qualification, they should make him a doctor of English Literature instead.
Toodle-pip
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Date: Fri, Jan 16, 1998 at 22:18:44 (EST)
Poster: John K.
Email:
To: Nigel from the void
Subject: Re: Castenada
Message:
Nigel:
So what's your book about?
Now don't go attacking my hero castaneda.
the next thing your gonna tell me is that there cannot possibly be any proof that I exist, or that I was born.
Think of it, Nigel, you know what I am claiming. I am claiming that I actually exist. That one moment I was nothing and the next here I am in all my grandeur
My daddy stuck his penis into my mommy and that produced me?!?!?!
Come on now, couldn't possibly happen.
Oh, I know, the billions of teeny spermies searched and searched until they found this little egg. And BAM an explosion. And then I started growing. That's how it works huh?
Why did the spermies seek the egg?
HMMMMM?
Does that really sound possible?
I sense a very strong element of the unexplainable, the fantastical, the dare I say it, magical.
Welllll, you know if there is just one unexplainable phenomenon, like say life itself, or consciousness, then doesn't it follow there could be another...and another?
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Date: Sat, Jan 17, 1998 at 03:23:53 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email:
To: Nigel from the void
Subject: Re: Castenada
Message:
Nigel, you are lucky you didn't live in the US. Then you would be pronouncing it "Goo Mhradgie" or "Goom Rodgie" as so many of us did.
Seriously, for many years I did not know that Castaneda's books were a fake (and I still admire someone who can fake a Ph.D dissertation!). In answer to your question, I gave away all my Castaneda books after I received knowledge because his philosophy didn't seem to fit in with Maharaji's - I felt, then, that he emphasized the experience of the individual too much. I don't feel this now, obviously!
Fake or not, I still think "Journey to Ixtlan" is a great book (and not incidentally one of the creepiest horror stories I have ever read). I'm not sure whether Castaneda experienced all of the stuff he wrote about, but I think some of it is out there to be experienced.
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Date: Sat, Jan 17, 1998 at 07:55:11 (EST)
Poster: seymour
Email:
To: Katie
Subject: Re: Castenada
Message:
I used to be a great fan of Carlos Casteneda and agree that Journey to Ixtlan is one of the all time great books. I seem to remember advising aspirants to read it as it portrayed an accurate picture of what it is to be a 'devotee'.
What Carlos had to learn, in order to become a spiritual warrior, was to become 'impeccable' and trust Don Juan absolutely. If Don Juan gave him a mushroom to eat he had to just do it and not think about it. All his experiences under the influence centered around trusting Don Juan no matter what appeared to be happening - even if Don Juan seemed to be trying to do harm. Of course it always turned out that jumping of a cliff or eating poison etc. was just a test and the result was another great experience on the journey.
Its no wonder these writings influenced many premies. Unfortunately,great though they were they were not real - or were they?
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Date: Sat, Jan 17, 1998 at 13:27:29 (EST)
Poster: All of us
Email: boy@boardingschool
To: Nigel from the void
Subject: Re: Castenada
Message:
Listen, I'm sorry. The modem was supposed to go back last Monday. I've overrun on my (third) free month's trial of the Internet (different company each time), my phone bill is going to cripple me and so will the divorce costs once the phone bill has arrived. Besides all that, I started writing a book exactly two years ago this week, but since I found this forum and the pleasure of exchanging ideas and abuse with its regular, mostly friendly, contributors, I've become seriously hooked on Premorabilia and the creative juices seem to have dried up.
Worse, I'm spending more and more of my waking hours thinking about Guru Maharaj ji. Hell, I'd almost forgotten the old tart even existed, but now I'm wasting too much time on him all over again and am constantly reliving the lost, stupid years. Now, of course, I pronounce it 'Gooroo Maharadge Gee' – like the BBC newsreader enunciated his name when the 'boy-god' came to London about 27 years back, when I was happy and innocent and still in school uniform. It's good therapy: say it out loud... 'Gooroo Maharadge Gee' . The schoolboy said 'Not for me, pal'. Shame the adult didn't do likewise a few years later.
I wonder if he ever thinks of me. (sigh)
So I promised myself a break to do some writing, earn some money, pay some bills, then later on sort out a proper Internet account. And yet here I am, still. The modem goes back on Monday. Promise.
But the reason for this post:
In the thread below (Katie & And on Anand ji) the name of Carlos Castenada is mentioned. I've started a separate thread so as not to distract from Katie's question. Castenada had a profound influence on me too before m ever came along. I wonder how many other ex-premies made a link, conscious or unconscious, between m's Knowledge and Don Juan's 'becoming a man of Knowledge'?
Did you also know that Castenda's Don Juan books are one of the greatest hoaxes of all time? (four million books sold)
- even greater for the fact that they are still a great read even when you know that Castenada was just this Peruvian student kid, who, knowing nothing at all about the Yaqui indians, sat in a university library for a few years and MADE IT ALL UP! Never even went to Mexico. It earned him his doctorate in anthropology, apparently. If the University of California ever decide to strip him of that academic qualification, they should make him a doctor of English Literature instead.
Toodle-pip
Your not an adult..Your an IDIOT.
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Date: Sat, Jan 17, 1998 at 22:48:32 (EST)
Poster: mili is
Email: b
To: All of us
Subject: back (Re: Castenada)
Message:
hello mili@cheerful.com
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Date: Sun, Jan 18, 1998 at 00:40:59 (EST)
Poster: a lesson in grammar
Email:
To: boarding school boy
Subject: Re: Castenada
Message:
Please fill in the blanks:
Your _______ _____ not an adult..Your _____ _____ an IDIOT.
In each instance, the first word should be a noun, the second a verb. E.g. Your dog is not an adult. Your
gerbil ate an IDIOT.
Now that you know something about grammar, tell us about the rules of punctuation - i.e. the use of the period (full stop if you're English).
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Date: Sun, Jan 18, 1998 at 20:25:41 (EST)
Poster: God
Email: REPENT@forgive.wrong
To: All of us
Subject: Re: Castenada
Message:
Why can't someone be both an adult AND an idiot?
Hmmmm?
Like yourself, for instance.
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Date: Fri, Jan 16, 1998 at 20:38:44 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: And and Anand JI
Subject: Hey, And and Anand Ji
Message:
Dear And and Anand Ji,
You wrote (edited):
I'd received knowledge in January, 1978, and by perhaps August was lamentably not following a regimen (I was an aspirant from July 1976--January 1978; because of my age I was too young to receive knowledge. I lived among premies as an emancipated youth).
I was asked to leave two different premie dwellings (the ashram and a shared
premie apartment). So, when everyone went off to some program or other, I moved out and gave no forwarding address. I was guarded in my demeanor toward premies afterward.
I had a sexual affair with a young woman (who was my own age) and that gave me some grounding about trying to integrate with main society--I needed to appear normal to her, which I was able to do with some success. I quickly realized to not talk too much about Maharaji or knowledge, and not to express; it wouldn't help me keep my girlfriend or to make friends with people, generally -- and I needed friends.
There was the shark satsang -- you may have heard it; it's the one where Maharaji talks about when the shark eats you, it initially takes one bite, and maybe there's still something left worth saving. But if it goes on too long, the shark takes a big bite out of the center of you, and
there's nothing left worth saving.
I don't remember but I think I got the bastardized version of the shark satsang (e.g. third-hand). But I certainly didn't make it up in my head one fine evening -- someone told it to me.
And so I took it upon myself to declare myself eaten by the shark -- nothing left worth saving. I guess the term would be condemned: I was condemned. That's pretty much the emotional impact of what my parents were telling me prior to 1976, so I was preconditioned to accept being condemned as a manageable (but lowly) state of being.
As a condemned person, I went about 10 years, just very occasionally dabbling with the techniques of knowledge. In the interim I joined up the Air
Force (U.S. Military); read Carlos Casteneda, and always making myself the one who fell short on a great opportunity offered by TPM. I'd say to myself (rehearsing what I'd say to someone who I made up in my mind as a typical prospect who liked my talk about knowledge and Maharaji): 'Well, it's great, but I couldn't seem to do it justice; but but that doesn't mean you would fail where I did -- I was afully weak and lazy.'
Then like I say in 1989 or 1990 or so, I happened upon some premies I knew from years back, and managed to get invited back to a gathering of some sort. Gone were the devotional aspects; darshan, puja, holi, arti. You weren't supposed to use a baragan any more. There was even a confusion about if any of the hindi words should be used, even when talking amongst each other: premie, darshan, sat chit anand, agya, puja, lila, pranam, sat nam, maya, kali yuga, prachar, prasad, charnamrit, satguru, mahatma; the honorifics bai and ji.
Katie writes:
I related very much to your story. I received knowledge in November of 1972 - I was 16 (persons as young as 13 could receive knowledge then). I didn't practice for a while - I went off to live in the mountains instead, but then came back after a few months and began living in premie houses - which I did for the next few years before I renounced GMJ. I didn't get thrown out of the house by my parents, but I could basically do whatever I wanted (like come and go as I pleased) because they didn't care - they were too busy drinking and fighting with each other to take care of their children (at the time).
I'd like to hear more of your story, if you'd like to tell it. I'm surprised that you kept faith with GMJ for all that time (or that's how it seemed in your story, anyway). I was lucky enough to be living with two ex-premies (who were tolerant of my belief in GMJ, but accepting when I renounced him), and to have enrolled in college classes, including a Renaissance history class which convinced me that GMJ wasn't the first person to try and found a new religion.
I'd be interested to know how you decided to leave knowledge, or renounce GMJ, or whatever.
Regards from Katie
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Date: Sun, Jan 18, 1998 at 01:02:32 (EST)
Poster: And On Anand Ji
Email: and_on_anand@yahoo.com
To: Katie
Subject: Re: Hey, And and Anand Ji
Message:
Dear And and Anand Ji,
You wrote (edited):
I'd received knowledge in January, 1978, and by perhaps August was lamentably not following a regimen (I was an aspirant from July 1976--January 1978; because of my age I was too young to receive knowledge. I lived among premies as an emancipated youth).
I was asked to leave two different premie dwellings (the ashram and a shared
premie apartment). So, when everyone went off to some program or other, I moved out and gave no forwarding address. I was guarded in my demeanor toward premies afterward.
I had a sexual affair with a young woman (who was my own age) and that gave me some grounding about trying to integrate with main society--I needed to appear normal to her, which I was able to do with some success. I quickly realized to not talk too much about Maharaji or knowledge, and not to express; it wouldn't help me keep my girlfriend or to make friends with people, generally -- and I needed friends.
There was the shark satsang -- you may have heard it; it's the one where Maharaji talks about when the shark eats you, it initially takes one bite, and maybe there's still something left worth saving. But if it goes on too long, the shark takes a big bite out of the center of you, and
there's nothing left worth saving.
I don't remember but I think I got the bastardized version of the shark satsang (e.g. third-hand). But I certainly didn't make it up in my head one fine evening -- someone told it to me.
And so I took it upon myself to declare myself eaten by the shark -- nothing left worth saving. I guess the term would be condemned: I was condemned. That's pretty much the emotional impact of what my parents were telling me prior to 1976, so I was preconditioned to accept being condemned as a manageable (but lowly) state of being.
As a condemned person, I went about 10 years, just very occasionally dabbling with the techniques of knowledge. In the interim I joined up the Air
Force (U.S. Military); read Carlos Casteneda, and always making myself the one who fell short on a great opportunity offered by TPM. I'd say to myself (rehearsing what I'd say to someone who I made up in my mind as a typical prospect who liked my talk about knowledge and Maharaji): 'Well, it's great, but I couldn't seem to do it justice; but but that doesn't mean you would fail where I did -- I was afully weak and lazy.'
Then like I say in 1989 or 1990 or so, I happened upon some premies I knew from years back, and managed to get invited back to a gathering of some sort. Gone were the devotional aspects; darshan, puja, holi, arti. You weren't supposed to use a baragan any more. There was even a confusion about if any of the hindi words should be used, even when talking amongst each other: premie, darshan, sat chit anand, agya, puja, lila, pranam, sat nam, maya, kali yuga, prachar, prasad, charnamrit, satguru, mahatma; the honorifics bai and ji.
Katie writes:
I related very much to your story. I received knowledge in November of 1972 - I was 16 (persons as young as 13 could receive knowledge then). I didn't practice for a while - I went off to live in the mountains instead, but then came back after a few months and began living in premie houses - which I did for the next few years before I renounced GMJ. I didn't get thrown out of the house by my parents, but I could basically do whatever I wanted (like come and go as I pleased) because they didn't care - they were too busy drinking and fighting with each other to take care of their children (at the time).
I'd like to hear more of your story, if you'd like to tell it. I'm surprised that you kept faith with GMJ for all that time (or that's how it seemed in your story, anyway). I was lucky enough to be living with two ex-premies (who were tolerant of my belief in GMJ, but accepting when I renounced him), and to have enrolled in college classes, including a Renaissance history class which convinced me that GMJ wasn't the first person to try and found a new religion.
I'd be interested to know how you decided to leave knowledge, or renounce GMJ, or whatever.
Regards from Katie
Hi Katie,
The nick is a joke about going on and on and on. Hence,
And On Anand Ji. :)
I don't exactly need to renounce Maharaji. I'm more or
less confused about some things; but the way I put it
when I was telling a friend about this site is that there
seems to be an ex-premie who gets very bitter about the
wasted time under Maharaji's influence or guidance; the
kind of ex who, like me, more or less went their own way
from day one in regards to so many things that they may
not have noticed they mostly don't have much to renounce
today -- took it with a grain of salt, as it were,
tempered with experience; and there's the kind of ex
who really isn't an ex yet, because they're still
trying to piece together the non-Maharaji elements into
a salvage; maybe even still professing the possible
existance of yet another (but at present undiscovered)
satguru to guide them along.
For me, my pantheon is a bit shorter than it had been;
I'm trying to figure out how I feel and how much of the
rhetoric was insincere. I guess at some point I decided
it's more than possible that Maharaji could jonestown
some day, or whatever his equivalent might be -- something
that would be fundamentally destructive to the spirit,
if not the corporeality, of his Mission.
I don't know. I'm here listening, wondering how others
are grappling with the adjustment of disappointment in
something that just doesn't seem to ring as true anymore.
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Date: Mon, Jan 19, 1998 at 00:08:22 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: And On Anand Ji
Subject: Re: Hey, And on Anand Ji (Re: Hey, And and Anand Ji)
Message:
Hey AOAJi - just a short apology for getting your name wrong (I pronounce it Anand Anand Ji in my head, so that's why.)
Also & actually, I am someone who kind of "grew out of" my involvement with GMJ, so perhaps don't fit into your categories. I left in 1977 and hadn't thought much about it since, until one of my best friends did an internet search on GMJ. I got involved with the ex-premies after finding out a premie friend of mine had committed suicide (from a posting on the former "premie.org" page), and have stayed involved after hearing about what happened to the ashram premies (I had a lot of friends who lived in the ashram), and because I like a lot of the people who post on here very much. At this point in my life, the idea that Maharaji could have any spiritual powers that aren't possessed by everyone else seems almost ridiculous to me. I know people have experienced things "in his presence" and "by his grace", but at this point, I don't feel that Maharaji had that much to do with it.
P.S. I'm still interested to know exactly what the "shark satsang" meant to you - it was hard to understand from your original posting. Were you talking about a real feeling of worthlessness, or a "ego death" type idea?
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Date: Fri, Jan 16, 1998 at 07:50:02 (EST)
Poster: Brian
Email:
To: Everyone
Subject: Jesus' New Web Page
Message:
Finally the Truth is being proclaimed on the WWW by people who are fearless independent proclaimers of the Truth!!! (At least until Jesus asks that they refrain from discussing him on the Internet...)
To view the Truth, click on:
http://www.premie.org/new.html
Get there fast! Jesus may be contacting the webmaster at this very moment... And be sure to inquire about Harlan Ray Cooley's webpage design services.
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Date: Fri, Jan 16, 1998 at 09:11:12 (EST)
Poster: Mr Ex
Email:
To: Brian
Subject: Re: Jesus' New Web Page
Message:
Woooooooooooooooooooooooowwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww!!!!!!!!!!
Is this Lord Jim's first satsang?
I want to be his disciple.
How much does it cost?
Do you accept Visa card?
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Date: Fri, Jan 16, 1998 at 10:06:50 (EST)
Poster: more than a little
Email: b
To: Brian
Subject: bit wrong (Re: Jesus' New Web Page)
Message:
good grief,
who wrote that?
This reminds me very much of the old 'bad' indian mission
and the stuff from the early days.
The person that wrote this thinks they understand
something but if they wanted to post here they could
get some feedback on what they wrote.
I for one could help them out on a number of things they
brought up.
Bahlbagwan used to talk like this and some of the claims
and assumptions are just well, even maharaji wouldn't
want this stuff used in reference to him.
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Date: Fri, Jan 16, 1998 at 11:15:34 (EST)
Poster: John K.
Email:
To: Brian
Subject: Re: Jesus' New Web Page
Message:
I can't read the words at the beginning of each line due to the graphic symbol at the left hand side of the page.
Why all the references to Jesus?
Why no author?
Or did this waft down from the void untouched by human hands?
Why am I asking these questions, since I really don't care anyway?
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Date: Fri, Jan 16, 1998 at 12:23:01 (EST)
Poster: bftb
Email:
To: John K.
Subject: Re: Jesus' New Web Page
Message:
I can't read the words at the beginning of each line due to the graphic symbol at the left hand side of the page.
Why all the references to Jesus?
Why no author?
Or did this waft down from the void untouched by human hands?
Why am I asking these questions, since I really don't care anyway?
I remember reading mili's web page a long time ago and if my memory is correct this stuff was on his page.Even the 'look' of it is the same.
It's amazing to me how much stuff like this used to impress me.Boy was I a pompous ass in my day,thought I knew something.Right now I give thanks to the creator of this ever evolving universe for having the mercy to allow me to learn just how little I really do know.
Where's mili anyway?I miss his posting here! And no I'm not kidding,say what you will about him but I like people who speak their mind.
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Date: Fri, Jan 16, 1998 at 12:49:46 (EST)
Poster: Mr Ex
Email:
To: Brian
Subject: Lame & deluding philosophy (Re: Jesus' New Web Page)
Message:
What I find interesting though, is that’s the kind of ‘satsang’ that used to seduce me and obviously thousands of other naive persons.
It’s exactly the type of discourse that’s given by the present gurus of Radha Soami,
and that was given in DLM in the old days.
I own copies of old Indian DLM books with almost the same ‘satsangs’.
What’s also very interesting is that it’s a nice looking salesman speech, with lame arguments that can easily be refuted one by one.
>The most urgent need of mankind is to awaken the spirit which lies dormant in man.
Are there really no other needs for human beings? Is that theory going to take care of those?
>The world we live in is comprised of "you", "he" and "I".
>For most of us, the first person singular is the hub around which the world revolves. It is the "I" which needs to >be praised, honoured and loved. We see the world in terms of "my" family, "my" house, "my" country, "my" >God. If it is "mine", it pleases and comforts me. How serious we become when the question of "I" is involved, >yet how indifferent we are when personal interest is not involved! Do we know what this "I" is that so captivates >our minds? For most, the "I" cannot be dispensed with nor can it be adequately understood. Is it the sheer ego of >the self-centered man which dies with the death of the human being?
This a strange egocentric vision of the world! What about the rest of the universe and millions of other creatures? Is man really the center of the creation? There might be lots of egocentric persons, this is a very ‘facile’ answer to any issue there is. There is a lot to say about that kind of BS theory/philosophy.
>Or, is it the residuary divinity which resides in the human and remains intact when all that is seen and sensed on >Earth disappears? Is it merely consciousness tied to with the physical form, or is it rather the omnipotent, >omnipresent eternal that transcends time and space?
Why should we call this (if it exists) divinity? Couldn’t it just be a regular human feeling anybody has? How do you know of what happens when ‘Earth disappears’? Have you been there? Why ‘omnipotent, omnipresent etc’?
Isn’t it just a feeling of something beyond your understanding? Or a big question many people have? Why call it God? Etc.
bla bla bla ....................
>Know the Soul
>Is it possible to know the soul within and accept it as our master? Can the mind and the senses be controlled and >made into a true servant, obeying the soul?
Why should soul be our master? Why should we control our senses? Isn’t this something dangerous? Don’t we have other tools to solve our problems: intellect, help from other people, therapists, etc
bla bla bla ....................
How easily can a naive and sincere person be deluded and deceived by that kind of discourse.
Poor me, poor premies, poor naive followers of stupid gurus.
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Date: Fri, Jan 16, 1998 at 16:18:48 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: bftb
Subject: Re: Jesus' New Web Page
Message:
I remember reading mili's web page a long time ago and if my memory is correct this stuff was on his page.Even the 'look' of it is the same.
It's amazing to me how much stuff like this used to impress me.Boy was I a pompous ass in my day,thought I knew something.Right now I give thanks to the creator of this ever evolving universe for having the mercy to allow me to learn just how little I really do know.
Where's mili anyway?I miss his posting here! And no I'm not kidding,say what you will about him but I like people who speak their mind.
I also think the author is Mili. It just has "Mili" written all over it. And even though I'm still angry at him for criticizing people who have panic attacks, and for trying to get rid of the newsgroup (why?), I have come to like Mili too. Especially off-topic - he's an interesting person.
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Date: Fri, Jan 16, 1998 at 17:04:50 (EST)
Poster: Nigel from the void
Email:
To: All
Subject: Re: Lame & deluding philosophy (Re: Jesus' New Web Page)
Message:
What I find interesting though, is that’s the kind of ‘satsang’ that used to seduce me and obviously thousands of other naive persons.
It’s exactly the type of discourse that’s given by the present gurus of Radha Soami,
and that was given in DLM in the old days.
I own copies of old Indian DLM books with almost the same ‘satsangs’.
What’s also very interesting is that it’s a nice looking salesman speech, with lame arguments that can easily be refuted one by one.
>The most urgent need of mankind is to awaken the spirit which lies dormant in man.
Are there really no other needs for human beings? Is that theory going to take care of those?
>The world we live in is comprised of 'you', 'he' and 'I'.
>For most of us, the first person singular is the hub around which the world revolves. It is the 'I' which needs to >be praised, honoured and loved. We see the world in terms of 'my' family, 'my' house, 'my' country, 'my' >God. If it is 'mine', it pleases and comforts me. How serious we become when the question of 'I' is involved, >yet how indifferent we are when personal interest is not involved! Do we know what this 'I' is that so captivates >our minds? For most, the 'I' cannot be dispensed with nor can it be adequately understood. Is it the sheer ego of >the self-centered man which dies with the death of the human being?
This a strange egocentric vision of the world! What about the rest of the universe and millions of other creatures? Is man really the center of the creation? There might be lots of egocentric persons, this is a very ‘facile’ answer to any issue there is. There is a lot to say about that kind of BS theory/philosophy.
>Or, is it the residuary divinity which resides in the human and remains intact when all that is seen and sensed on >Earth disappears? Is it merely consciousness tied to with the physical form, or is it rather the omnipotent, >omnipresent eternal that transcends time and space?
Why should we call this (if it exists) divinity? Couldn’t it just be a regular human feeling anybody has? How do you know of what happens when ‘Earth disappears’? Have you been there? Why ‘omnipotent, omnipresent etc’?
Isn’t it just a feeling of something beyond your understanding? Or a big question many people have? Why call it God? Etc.
bla bla bla ....................
>Know the Soul
>Is it possible to know the soul within and accept it as our master? Can the mind and the senses be controlled and >made into a true servant, obeying the soul?
Why should soul be our master? Why should we control our senses? Isn’t this something dangerous? Don’t we have other tools to solve our problems: intellect, help from other people, therapists, etc
bla bla bla ....................
How easily can a naive and sincere person be deluded and deceived by that kind of discourse.
Poor me, poor premies, poor naive followers of stupid gurus.
I thought I told you all once: consciousness is a function of a living, waking brain - unless anybody has powerful evidence to the contrary.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinarily good evidence... (yawn). Sorry, can't stop - things to do. Toodle-pip.
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Date: Fri, Jan 16, 1998 at 22:45:28 (EST)
Poster: Brian
Email:
To: Katie
Subject: Re: Jesus' New Web Page
Message:
I also think the author is Mili. It just has 'Mili' written all over it. And even though I'm still angry at him for criticizing people who have panic attacks, and for trying to get rid of the newsgroup (why?), I have come to like Mili too. Especially off-topic - he's an interesting person.
Now that you mention it, there was something familiar about it. Mili used to have a web page that was filled with stuff like that - Mili's Satsang Page it was called. If I didn't see that exact page there, then I read plenty of others just like it. Anyway, it's refreshing to see Harlan putting real insightful content like that on premie.org, huh? I still think Jesus is pissed, though.
As for him being 'an interesting person' - Abby Normal was probably an interesting person too...
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Date: Sat, Jan 17, 1998 at 03:31:28 (EST)
Poster: Mr Ex
Email:
To: Brian
Subject: You won't believe this! (Re: Jesus' New Web Page)
Message:
You won’t believe this!
This text has been taken out from the booklet
Satgurudev Shri Hanj Ji Maharj’,
Published by
Divine Light Mission
B19-3, Shakti Nagar
Delhi 7, India
in November 1970
Pages 76 to 84.
This chapter was originally called ‘Spiritual Master’.
What’s odd is that it stops just before an intersting paragraph:
« Service of the Spiritual Master »
Love and devotion of the Spiritual Master as well as selfless service to mankind for the Glory of God speed the purification of the seeker of God. « Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. » In the lays of Christianity, this necessity is demonstrated by the oath of complete surrender to the Master that must be given at time of baptism, sworn to be practised throughout the lifetime of the believer.
Only those who obey the commandments of the master are blessed in their lifetime. Only those who so love and obey the master so that they become one with Him can hope of becoming one with God. For Guru, or the Master is God and if you can realise the Master you have realised God. « Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except that it abide in the vine, no more can ye, except ye abide in me. » (John, 15 ;4)
Bla bla bla ....... (do you want more of this?)
Now what does this all mean?
Has Mili been publishing DLM’s materials? Owned by Satpal Maharaj? With or without his authorization?
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Date: Sat, Jan 17, 1998 at 14:36:53 (EST)
Poster: bftb
Email:
To: Brian
Subject: Re: Jesus' New Web Page
Message:
Brian,as I said above-I think yes,you did see that 'exact page' there.
Katie,when I read his web page a year or so ago,I got the impression that it was reprinted early dlm material,yet you seem to feel that mili didn't just post it,but authored it as well.Since all the dlm stuff is before my time,I can't be sure but do you think it could be reprinted literature of the mission?
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Date: Sat, Jan 17, 1998 at 14:37:07 (EST)
Poster: bftb
Email:
To: Brian
Subject: Re: Jesus' New Web Page
Message:
Brian,as I said above-I think yes,you did see that 'exact page' there.
Katie,when I read his web page a year or so ago,I got the impression that it was reprinted early dlm material,yet you seem to feel that mili didn't just post it,but authored it as well.Since all the dlm stuff is before my time,I can't be sure but do you think it could be reprinted literature of the mission?
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Date: Sat, Jan 17, 1998 at 14:49:37 (EST)
Poster: bftb
Email:
To: Mr Ex
Subject: Re: You won't believe this! (Re: Jesus' New Web Page)
Message:
You won’t believe this!
This text has been taken out from the booklet
Satgurudev Shri Hanj Ji Maharj’,
Published by
Divine Light Mission
B19-3, Shakti Nagar
Delhi 7, India
in November 1970
Pages 76 to 84.
This chapter was originally called ‘Spiritual Master’.
What’s odd is that it stops just before an intersting paragraph:
« Service of the Spiritual Master »
Love and devotion of the Spiritual Master as well as selfless service to mankind for the Glory of God speed the purification of the seeker of God. « Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. » In the lays of Christianity, this necessity is demonstrated by the oath of complete surrender to the Master that must be given at time of baptism, sworn to be practised throughout the lifetime of the believer.
Only those who obey the commandments of the master are blessed in their lifetime. Only those who so love and obey the master so that they become one with Him can hope of becoming one with God. For Guru, or the Master is God and if you can realise the Master you have realised God. « Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except that it abide in the vine, no more can ye, except ye abide in me. » (John, 15 ;4)
Bla bla bla ....... (do you want more of this?)
Now what does this all mean?
Has Mili been publishing DLM’s materials? Owned by Satpal Maharaj? With or without his authorization?
Hey mr.ex,good detective work-how do you find all this stuff?
I had just asked katie about 'my hunch' and had not read this post of yours,you have confirmed my sixth sense and due to my confirmed omniscience I will now tell the globe the truth:I am the real perfect master of this and all ages.I will have a p.o. box soon where you may all send me gifts and I promise to use these gifts as only a perfect master can.Really,honest.What?You're questioning me?Now THAT will be your downfall.Repent while there's still time and......sorry,I just got a little carried away.And,alright I admit it I'm not really a perfect master and I won't really be setting up a p.o. box for gifts and sorry if I got anyones hopes up.
But above all I apologise to brian(webmaster?)for posting the same post twice above,I F'ed up.
'I came,I proclaimed,I inspired briefly,I recanted,I repented,I withdrew;My mission is complete'
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Date: Sat, Jan 17, 1998 at 15:20:22 (EST)
Poster: Brian
Email:
To: Mr Ex
Subject: Re: You won't believe this! (Re: Jesus' New Web Page)
Message:
Bla bla bla ....... (do you want more of this?)
Actually, yes. I asked Katie to see if you would contact me, but haven't heard back from you. You can reach me at brian@ex-premie.org.
Now what does this all mean?
Has Mili been publishing DLM’s materials? Owned by Satpal Maharaj? With or without his authorization?
What's interesting about this is that Mili should pick that particular spot to stop the quotation. It's been Mili's position that MJ has never said he was anything more than a lowly meditation teacher just trying to eke out a living like the rest of us.
Note to Harlan (webmaster of www.premie.org):
Keep adding that stuff, Harlan. I promise to link to it for those siteless premies that wander in here now that MJ has shut down your old devotional guestbook. Think of it as a service performed by us for those who are still suffering unrequited love for the Master.
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Date: Sat, Jan 17, 1998 at 16:19:03 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email:
To: bftb
Subject: Re: Jesus' New Web Page
Message:
dear bftb - I didn't actually mean to imply that Mili had written it (although I did say that). My statement that the piece had "Mili written all over it" is probably more correct - it just looked like "Mili's Satsang Pages" (even the artwork.) For authorship - see Mr. Ex's post below. I know that Mili has a copy of "Hans Yog Prakesh" (not sure if I've got title or spelling right), which is indeed very early DLM literature.
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Date: Sat, Jan 17, 1998 at 17:30:47 (EST)
Poster: it ain't a
Email: b
To: Katie
Subject: reprint (Re: Jesus' New Web Page)
Message:
That is not a reprint of some old thing.
I have hans yog prakesh also, and anyway it's a recent
hodge podge of hindu western premie philosophy which is
mostly incorrect anyway.
maharaji himself would not like the thing as the advertisement that it is.
I am sure of that and mili will get a call from someone.
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Date: Sat, Jan 17, 1998 at 18:47:28 (EST)
Poster: bftb
Email:
To: Katie
Subject: Re: Jesus' New Web Page
Message:
dear bftb - I didn't actually mean to imply that Mili had written it (although I did say that). My statement that the piece had 'Mili written all over it' is probably more correct - it just looked like 'Mili's Satsang Pages' (even the artwork.) For authorship - see Mr. Ex's post below. I know that Mili has a copy of 'Hans Yog Prakesh' (not sure if I've got title or spelling right), which is indeed very early DLM literature.
Hey Katie,thanks for this.If you scroll down a bit you'll see my post to mr.ex.I wrote my question to you a minute before i actually read mr.ex's post and thanks to his post have come to realize I'm psychic.I also feel you are right;it looked exactly the same as mili's old satsang page.
Off topic:Katie,I just wanted to thank-you for interacting with me on this forum.You are one of the only people who actually responds to any of my posts,and you are definately the only one who does so regularly.If not for you I would have stopped posting here awhile ago.
Thanks again.
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Date: Sun, Jan 18, 1998 at 19:09:01 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: bftb
Subject: Thanks, bftb (Re: Jesus' New Web Page)
Message:
Off topic:Katie,I just wanted to thank-you for interacting with me on this forum.You are one of the only people who actually responds to any of my posts,and you are definately the only one who does so regularly.If not for you I would have stopped posting here awhile ago.
Thanks again.
Dear bftb - thank you very much for what you said. I really like your posts on the forum - I find them especially interesting because you are one of the few people on here who did NOT get knowledge in the 1970's, and because you are quite open-minded. You have asked some good questions, too - and I've enjoyed answering them. I hope you do keep on posting.
Regards from
Katie
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Date: Thurs, Jan 15, 1998 at 21:26:15 (EST)
Poster: And On Anand Ji
Email: and_on_anand@yahoo.com
To: --------
Subject: Guru Oz-Maharaji
Message:
Oz never did give nothing to the Tin Man
That he didn't already have
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Date: Fri, Jan 16, 1998 at 12:21:44 (EST)
Poster: John K.
Email:
To: And On Anand Ji
Subject: Re: Guru Oz-Maharaji
Message:
Ah, do I smell a concept?, and a spiritual concept to boot?
This whole idea that it's ALL inside ALL of us is a very nice idea. but like most spiritual ideas it cannot be proven or disproven, and what does it really mean?
Actually, the tin man did need that journey to Oz, and he was better for having made it.
I mean, where was he before, he was stuck in some woods with an ax before Dorothy came along and oiled him.
Now would you say that the tin man already had everything he needed before Dorothy came along? NO! Dorothy definetly saved the tin man. All hail Dorothy!
See, Dorothy was really the great and wonderful Oz, just she didn't proclaim it.
She had to go out and prove to herself and the rest of us that she was something special.
She saved the straw man, the tin man, and the lion from mundane existences far from the silver screen.
So, each one of us can't just sit back and go 'I am God because I have a spark of God inside of me.' We have to actually manifest some evidence of that spark. AND if we cannot manifest some evidence of that spark is that spark really there or not?
What I mean is if we don't manifest it, then who cares if it's there or not.
The spirit of God is meaningless if it cannot be manifested.
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Date: Fri, Jan 16, 1998 at 16:29:00 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: John K.
Subject: Re: Guru Oz-Maharaji
Message:
Very profound, you guys... Maybe the idea that both of you are trying to convey is that you don't need the Wizard, or Maharaji, but just an ordinary person (who might possibly be yourself) coming along at the right time to help you "manifest that spark". (It probably isn't "America" or L. Frank Baum, though...)
P.S. The verse of music that reminds me the most of my involvement with Maharaji is:
We really thought we had a purpose
We were so anxious to succeed
We had hope, the world had promise
For a slave to liberty
Freely I slaved away for something better
But I was bought and sold
And all I ever wanted
Was just to come in from the cold.
(Joni Mitchell - "Come in from the Cold")
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Date: Sat, Jan 17, 1998 at 23:52:59 (EST)
Poster: TO
Email: b
To: John K.
Subject: TO (Re: Guru Oz-Maharaji)
Message:
Interesting point.
Maybe she didn't save them from a mundane life however,
Maybe there IS no mundane life.
Maybe it is just the attitude that needs freshening up
and reorienting.
All they did was go beyond themselves and try to help
someone else. In that effort to give of themselves to
another they were enlarged, or awakened to a side of
themselves that was being missed or unused.
You must be a non eastern thinker if you say 'each one
of us can't just sit back and go-I am god because I have
a spark of god inside of me.'
Because that is exactly the premise of the hindus.
That is exactly the point of the buddists, and all the
rest of the many groups, 'we are all god, we just have to
realize it.' Sounds very spiritual correct I know.
Too bad it is fantasy. Or rather, thank god it is fantasy.
And of course since it is fantasy it puts the
whole 'elevated teacher' concept in the level of
huge fraud. An innocent sheep might still recieve the
mercy of god during thier life but it is IN SPITE of the
fake godhead rather than from it.
The 'realization of god' idea was as big a misperception of life as the one about maharaji being the lord god almighty.
It's amazing how popular that notion is across the globe.
I think the krishna storybook is responsible for a lot
of that infection.
The tyranny of the ideas about god is just complete and
planet-wide.
Choosing what are the ten worst ideas might be challenging
given the variety, but I think the notion of 'realising god'
is perhaps number one.
People (and I include myself) are incredibly fantasy-loving.
tv, movies, daydreams,ego,caste systems of a million types,
religions,the whole identity arena-that's a biggie,
Just the way it has to be I guess in a free will human.
In the olden days of a few months ago I would have chimed
in about the holy name ect.
But you talked about manifesting the spirit of god and
I now see how all kinds of people naturally empathize
with those around them. And some really extend themselves
for others and for the common good. Of course if you
dig a little you will run into the confusion pollution
layer at some point in them, but they react truly
often enough and that is without anyone's divine
involvement, or at least for sure no one in a bodys'
divine involvement. I see maharaji repeatedly has
stifled the impulse to be empathetic and regular to
the next person, of course this is always excused by
the notion that since he is 'realized', he has some other
impulses that are beyond the norm.
My point I guess,Mr. BTFTB, is that I agree with what I
think you were getting at with your comment about
'the spirit of god is meaningless if it cannot be
manfested'.
The good stuff in us IS manifested quite regularly and
naturally in spite of our other qualities and
the meager and piss poor help we get from the one's
who are confused enough to try to teach us about god.
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Date: Sun, Jan 18, 1998 at 14:10:48 (EST)
Poster: John K.
Email:
To: TO
Subject: Re: Guru Oz-Maharaji
Message:
What does "Mr. BTFTB" mean?
In my ego filled state I am curious how you are defining/describing me with these initials.
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Date: Sun, Jan 18, 1998 at 18:01:44 (EST)
Poster: CD
Email:
To: TO
Subject: Re: Guru Oz-Maharaji
Message:
Big difference between the maifestation of throwing a football and being a star quarterback.
It takes the combination of talent, practice, dedication, good team players and a good coach.
Sitting on your couch you know you can manifest.
Sure, everybody can throw the football.
CD
San Diego
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Date: Sun, Jan 18, 1998 at 18:03:33 (EST)
Poster: CD
Email:
To: John K.
Subject: Re: Guru Oz-Maharaji
Message:
Be The Finest That Beckons
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Date: Sun, Jan 18, 1998 at 19:19:09 (EST)
Poster: Ms. K.
Email:
To: John K.
Subject: Re: Guru Oz-Maharaji
Message:
What does 'Mr. BTFTB' mean?
In my ego filled state I am curious how you are defining/describing me with these initials.
Hi John,
I think it was Bill posting (or someone pretending to be Bill. Look for the word "thier".) Anyway, he probably got you mixed up with 'bftb' who is 'bystander from the beginning', but perhaps I can suggest a few other things.
Be The First To Balk?
Bomb That Freedom To Become?
Become The Fan Twice Betrayed?
Big Top Full To Bursting?
Beg Twice For Two Bits?
Buy The Fake To Be?
Sorry...
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Date: Sun, Jan 18, 1998 at 22:19:11 (EST)
Poster: John K.
Email:
To: Ms. K.
Subject: Re: Guru Oz-Maharaji
Message:
Oh GAHHHHHD, another disappointment!
All my life I have been trying to figure out who I am, so then someone calls me Mr. BFTFB and I thought 'wow! maybe this person knows something I don't know'
but no
just another case of mistaken identity.
BTW what's up with 'bystander from the beginning' I think BFTB has evolved out of bystander status, he is now an ex -bystander..
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Date: Sun, Jan 18, 1998 at 23:58:35 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email:
To: John K.
Subject: Re: Guru Oz-Maharaji
Message:
Oh GAHHHHHD, another disappointment!
All my life I have been trying to figure out who I am, so then someone calls me Mr. BFTFB and I thought 'wow! maybe this person knows something I don't know'
but no
just another case of mistaken identity.
BTW what's up with 'bystander from the beginning' I think BFTB has evolved out of bystander status, he is now an ex -bystander..
Yeah, but Brian told him he could only use a pseudonym if he stuck to the same one (to avoid being confused with bburke), and he had (and very politely, I might add) stuck to bftb. When bbill starts using the same pseudonym ever time, then maybe bftb can branch out a little.
By the way, how do you know that BFTFB isn't REALLY a secret indictment of your identity?
Born For The Far Better?
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Date: Mon, Jan 19, 1998 at 11:08:26 (EST)
Poster: bftb
Email:
To: Katie
Subject: Re: Guru Oz-Maharaji
Message:
Katie,I have to say that I have on a few occasions posted under a different name,only when it seemed in the spirit of the particular discussion,so I guess techinically I've only been polite 97% of the time,but thanks for noticing anyway.
I think anonymity is fine here(personally I don't care if everyone posted anonymously because mainly I'm interested in thoughts/feelings/ideas,and I don't need names for this)but it's possible that a name like bftb is tougher to respond to then say:Bob. Both are fake but one sounds more like you are actually talking to a human being.
So;if people here would prefer the 'death' of bftb I would be happy to change 'my name' to Bob Dobbs(and hope that the church of the subgenius takes it in stride and enjoys the joke/plug)which is fine with me.
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Date: Mon, Jan 19, 1998 at 16:28:37 (EST)
Poster: John K.
Email:
To: bftb
Subject: Re: Guru Oz-Maharaji
Message:
"So;if people here would prefer the 'death' of bftb I would be happy to change 'my name' to Bob Dobbs(and hope that the church of the subgenius takes it in stride and enjoys the joke/plug)which is fine with me."
Before you kill bftb, which strikes me as a pretty ridiculous fake ID, if you ask me, and I know your not asking me,
(I mean it raises questions in an area where you obviously don't want any attention paid, which is to your identity, you know?)
but what is the church of the subgenius?
Also, just for the sake of starting an argument, I am different from you in that I like to know who is posting what. I don't like all these anonymous/nameless posters. I don't know why. I get the image of rodents slinking around afraid to come out into the light and be seen for what/who they really are.
Maybe I am missing something.
Why the need to be an unidentified entity? Is this a spiritual idea? Giving up personal history, personal identity? Or are you afraid of the guru police hunting you down? Or are you just embarassed to be an ex premie? Or maybe embarassed to have BEEN a premie?
I mean I can relate to all those feelings, like...i'm ok, you're ok...like... I respect your personal space...like don't get uptight...
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Date: Mon, Jan 19, 1998 at 17:18:38 (EST)
Poster: bftb
Email:
To: John K.
Subject: Re: Guru Oz-Maharaji
Message:
church of the subgenius is a 'church' in texas I think.They are in fact spoofing(although,as part of their humour they'd probably deny it) cults/religions.They've got a few books out penned by the great reverand(I'd think if you went to a book database and entered"ivan stang"it'd probably list the books) Ivan Stang.Their leader/Icon is Bob Dobbs,a pipe smoking cartoon character who resembles Mr.Appleton from the old national lampoon comic called 'the Appletons'.
Like myself,there are in fact _many_ people who as a rule do not post their names and email adresses on public forums like this.As long as the poster is not doing this in order to harm(in whatever way)and/or create disruptions/havoc then I have no problem with it.I guess people who post their email adress do that because they want email from other posters. That's fine. However it could also lead to major spamming which is not fine.I also made the huge mistake of watching the movie 'the net' before I ever got a computer...maybe that's what did it?
Most discussion boards do not require names/email adresses,however if the webmaster here would like an end to anonymous posting,then I'll oblige,as would I think all the others who post here under assumed names and/or without email adresses.
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Date: Mon, Jan 19, 1998 at 21:02:18 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: bftb and John
Subject: Re: Guru Oz-Maharaji
Message:
church of the subgenius is a 'church' in texas I think.They are in fact spoofing(although,as part of their humour they'd probably deny it) cults/religions.They've got a few books out penned by the great reverand(I'd think if you went to a book database and entered'ivan stang'it'd probably list the books) Ivan Stang.Their leader/Icon is Bob Dobbs,a pipe smoking cartoon character who resembles Mr.Appleton from the old national lampoon comic called 'the Appletons'.
Like myself,there are in fact _many_ people who as a rule do not post their names and email adresses on public forums like this.As long as the poster is not doing this in order to harm(in whatever way)and/or create disruptions/havoc then I have no problem with it.I guess people who post their email adress do that because they want email from other posters. That's fine. However it could also lead to major spamming which is not fine.I also made the huge mistake of watching the movie 'the net' before I ever got a computer...maybe that's what did it?
Most discussion boards do not require names/email adresses,however if the webmaster here would like an end to anonymous posting,then I'll oblige,as would I think all the others who post here under assumed names and/or without email adresses.
Dear bftb (and John) -
As far as I know, Brian (the webmaster) has no problem with people posting anonymously and without e-mail addresses on the forum. The reason he asked you (bftb) to use the same pseudonym all the time is because it's helpful to know to whom one is talking. If you want to change your name to Bob Dobbs, I wouldn't have a problem with it at all (except that I think Bob Dobbs is creepy-looking...) I personally don't like answering so-called "anonmymous" posts where the person is obviously trying to disguise their identity in order to post objectionable or weird comments, but don't mind at all if someone just doesn't want to use their real name for reasons of privacy.
BTW, I have never gotten any spam from being on the forum. I used to get spam when I posted on the newsgroup (Usenet), but I don't think the spammers notice our lowly newsgroup. I do like being able to exchange e-mail with the other people on the forum - that's one of the reasons that I post my e-mail address.
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Date: Mon, Jan 19, 1998 at 21:20:49 (EST)
Poster: bftb
Email:
To: Katie
Subject: Re: Guru Oz-Maharaji
Message:
I'll stick with bftb.
For incredible fun go here: http://sunsite.unc.edu/subgenius/
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Date: Tues, Jan 20, 1998 at 20:35:21 (EST)
Poster: nftv
Email:
To: bftb
Subject: Re: Guru Oz-Maharaji
Message:
I'll stick with bftb.
For incredible fun go here: http://sunsite.unc.edu/subgenius/
Went straight there and downloaded some stuff, then had an urgent appointment at the alehouse. Came home with best mate in cheerful frame of mind. Printed out and read all the 'Church of the Subgenius' stuff, and nearly wet ourselves laughing. At the same time we were listening to Jim White's '(the mysterious tale of how I shouted] Wrong-Eyed Jesus' and suddenly it all made sense.
Thanks for a great evening.
(NFTV)
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Date: Thurs, Jan 15, 1998 at 06:11:59 (EST)
Poster: Mr Ex
Email:
To: Everyone
Subject: Prempal .....
Message:
http://www.kabalarians.com/male/prempal.htm
Prempal
Your name of Prempal has created a most expressive nature, idealistic and inspirational, driven with a strong inner urge to be of service in some way that would uplift humanity as a whole. However, there is a tendency to assume too heavy a burden of responsibility for others, which leads to worry and over-concern. People with problems are drawn to you as they recognize you as one who has understanding and gives not only sympathy and comfort but provides also some constructive advice or assistance. You have a generous quality to your nature, but you must guard carefully against giving more than you receive or you will find yourself doing without because you have helped someone else. You love people, family, home, and friends and try to be a parent to the whole human race. You have a certain stability in your life, but may experience some problems in business affairs through a tendency to be somewhat scattering with your efforts. Any health problems would show as tension in the nervous system brought on by worry.
Prempal, this brief analysis of your first name is not complete. There are many additional factors (nicknames, last name, names and initials in your business signature, and birthdate, etc.) to be considered, or that affect your personality and life. A personalized Name Report™ will give you a comprehensive description of your unique qualities, inner potential, strengths and weaknesses, compatibility in personal and business relationships, career aptitudes, health, and degree of happiness and success.
You can also obtain a complimentary FREE verbal analysis by clicking here.
Very Important Note on Selecting a Name for a Baby !
Please do not choose a first name based solely on the short analysis given here. There are many significant factors to consider in selecting a name. The baby's first name must be balanced with both:
· the baby's birthdate (inner potential)
· and your family's surname (last name)
It is essential that you understand the qualities of your family name. Call us at 604-263-9551 before you make a decision on your child's name, or for more information click here.
For further information on the Kabalarian Philosophy™, please contact us at info@kabalarians.com, by phone in Vancouver, BC at 604-263-9551, or by fax at 604-263-5514.
Analyze another name Free Verbal Analysis Add my name!
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Date: Thurs, Jan 15, 1998 at 13:53:46 (EST)
Poster: not the
Email: b
To: Mr Ex
Subject: kabalarians (Re: Prempal .....)
Message:
Your name of prempal means protector of love.
paradoxically, you have spent many years shareing
anything BUT to those close around you.
And to the world at large you have presented yourself
as the ultimate destination of our love.
And as the recipient of our love and efforts you have
consistantly only used it for your out of control
desires and ego stroking.
And you set yourself in between your victims and god.
Claiming the spot that is gods'.
In your slow learning of how to 'be nice', your victims
will be amazed at your 'loving nature'.
Rather than being the protector of love, love needing
no protection, you waste your life and those that
believe you.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 15, 1998 at 15:04:30 (EST)
Poster: op
Email:
To: Mr Ex
Subject: Re: Prempal .....
Message:
Oddly enough, here's what I was about to add to the last post I made to you. Funny you might have picked up on something stuck between the pages in the akashik:
"BTW, re Jim's continual questioning: I finally found a character fault in M: he's too open, too often trying to please everyone. He goes along with all the experiments people suggest to him, changes his own plans to accommodate those around him."
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Date: Thurs, Jan 15, 1998 at 19:29:24 (EST)
Poster: Sir David
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: op
Subject: Re: Prempal .....
Message:
You can say that but nobody's listening. Your words are but an ironic contrast to what people express here. You know that.
The main thing is this: Maharaji did say on many occasions that he was God in human form. Not God's messenger but the Almighty Himself. Regardless of whether you like Maharaji or not, the fact is, he has deceived people. That fact must not be forgotten.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 15, 1998 at 21:58:34 (EST)
Poster: John K.
Email:
To: op
Subject: Re: Prempal .....
Message:
Op:
Did you pick op as your handle because of the character on Andy Griffith?
I am curious, how do you know that he goes along with all the experiments that people come up with? I mean, can you give examples of this?
The reason I am asking is one of the services I offer is "next life planning" (it's never too early to start planning for the next life - in fact if you would like to take advantage of a special offer I can do yours for a VERY reduced rate).
I am thinking that my next life might just be the time for ME to take a crack at the spiritual master business.
I mean, someone's got to do it. Can anyone give me a good reason why it can't be me?
Is anyone else starting to get kind of punchy (as in losing the firm grip I used to have on reality) with this whole guru subject, or is it just me?
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Date: Thurs, Jan 15, 1998 at 23:06:21 (EST)
Poster: odl
Email:
To: John K.
Subject: Re: Prempal .....
Message:
Dear John K.
Actually I just signed on one time as Old Premie and it jsut got abbreviated as OP. One time I signed on as odl premie, so I think I'll use that from now on.
As for next life planning - I don't think you'd do too well on the Guru circuit. You have to eat a LOT of fruit cake. And swallow it, too.
I knew I'd get exactly the reaction you and Sir Dave had - but just had to post it, after the name analysis thing. So you can chalk it up to losing my own grip on the reality of posting here.
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Date: Fri, Jan 16, 1998 at 07:23:54 (EST)
Poster: Brian
Email:
To: op
Subject: Re: Prempal .....
Message:
I finally found a character fault in M: he's too open, too often trying to please everyone. He goes along with all the experiments people suggest to him, changes his own plans to accommodate those around him.
Is this a nice way of saying "He is easily led"? Or "He is a wavering little Lord"?
I do have to applaud the fact that you could even come up with a flaw in his makeup. Makes him so much more human - like the rest of us. Is there any chance that (I know I'm putting a lot of pressure on you here) you might be able to come up with a flaw in myself? Or perhaps some poster here who is more clearly flawed? I know that I personally wouldn't be offended. It would be a great opportunity to be critiqued by one obviously blessed with an insightful eye.
How long would it have taken you to come up with a flaw in your husband? Your children?
What do you think of women who are blind to the flaws in the men they adore? Do you look up to them? Do you think that the Battered Women's Shelters would empty or fill if these women were to share your keen insight into human nature? These should all be easy questions for you.
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Date: Fri, Jan 16, 1998 at 16:48:09 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email:
To: op
Subject: Re: Prempal .....
Message:
Oddly enough, here's what I was about to add to the last post I made to you. Funny you might have picked up on something stuck between the pages in the akashik:
'BTW, re Jim's continual questioning: I finally found a character fault in M: he's too open, too often trying to please everyone. He goes along with all the experiments people suggest to him, changes his own plans to accommodate those around him.'
OP (or odl - I kind of like OP better - odl sound like old lady to me)
What you have described IS a character flaw, although it may not sound like one. It's called being a "people-pleaser". I have it, Bill Clinton has it, lots of other adult children of alchoholics have it, and no doubt lots of other people too.
Here's a paragraph written by Earnie Larsen (from 'Stage II Relationships') about people-pleasers:
"People-pleasers have never learned to say no. If they say no, they think that others will get mad at them, and when that happens, it means they're bad people and would be abandoned by the people they love. In order to avoid this fate, people-pleasers learn to lie; emotional dishonesty becomes a way of life....People-pleasers have an all-consuming need to wear the white hat. No matter what it takes, they need to be the good guys."
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Date: Fri, Jan 16, 1998 at 21:10:51 (EST)
Poster: O
Email: b
To: Katie
Subject: P (Re: Prempal .....)
Message:
Hi kathryn
I for one say op is not a people pleaser.
She really is operating from her own orientation
and that is irregardless of the thinking of others.
I am not sure how to classify her but I don't think
people pleaser fits.
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Date: Fri, Jan 16, 1998 at 21:47:00 (EST)
Poster: Nigel from the void
Email:
To: odl
Subject: Re: Prempal .....
Message:
Hello op. Now Mili's gone I have to say I admire your resilience under constant fire. Unfortunately I find less admirable your endless capacity to rationalise everything and adjust every formula to give the same answer: Maharaj ji can do no wrong. This is reminiscent of the way I used to do much the same thing when I was a practising premie.
I'm genuinely interested as to how you would distinguish Maharaj ji's credentials from those of any other spiritual teacher offering the same message, the same techniques, etc.? Something must still set him apart for you, otherwise you wouldn't show such dogged loyalty. I'd really like to know what it is.
Best wishes.
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Date: Sat, Jan 17, 1998 at 02:45:43 (EST)
Poster: op
Email: pragonampi@aol.com
To: Nigel from the void
Subject: Re: Prempal .....
Message:
Hi Void:
I'm genuinely interested as to how you would distinguish Maharaj ji's credentials from those of any other spiritual teacher offering the same message, the same techniques, etc.? Something must still set him apart for you, otherwise you wouldn't show such dogged loyalty. I'd really like to know what it is.
If you mean this seriously, I'd not be adverse to email with you, to let you know some of the more intimate things that I have experienced with M and Knowledge. I don't feel right posting these things on a public forum.
I don't remember whether I've seen your address on any of your posts, so I've put my email address on this post, and if you'd like me to email you back, just send me a note using your email. I promise not to give it to anyone or to post it anywhere.
I know I'm famous for procrastination, but I also enjoy writing a long letter every once in a while.
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Date: Sat, Jan 17, 1998 at 15:05:11 (EST)
Poster: bftb
Email:
To: op
Subject: Re: Prempal .....
Message:
Hi Void:
I'm genuinely interested as to how you would distinguish Maharaj ji's credentials from those of any other spiritual teacher offering the same message, the same techniques, etc.? Something must still set him apart for you, otherwise you wouldn't show such dogged loyalty. I'd really like to know what it is.
If you mean this seriously, I'd not be adverse to email with you, to let you know some of the more intimate things that I have experienced with M and Knowledge. I don't feel right posting these things on a public forum.
I don't remember whether I've seen your address on any of your posts, so I've put my email address on this post, and if you'd like me to email you back, just send me a note using your email. I promise not to give it to anyone or to post it anywhere.
I know I'm famous for procrastination, but I also enjoy writing a long letter every once in a while.
And I would think that given certain experiences that you had around M that you _know_ were real because they were your personal experiences there's no way anything real or fictional said about him could sway your opinion because you _know_he's the real thing.
This is the part that I still find the most puzzling:I had certain experiences that indicated to me that M _is_facilitating something.So I can understand that ultimately it won't make a difference to you how he lives or if he ever pow-wows with those who feel he betrayed their trust.I really think I do understand.
Am I off base? How do you reconcile his dispensing abilities vis a vis his seemingly ultra materialistic way of living?
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Date: Sat, Jan 17, 1998 at 16:19:25 (EST)
Poster: Nigel
Email:
To: op
Subject: Re: Prempal .....
Message:
Hi Void:
I'm genuinely interested as to how you would distinguish Maharaj ji's credentials from those of any other spiritual teacher offering the same message, the same techniques, etc.? Something must still set him apart for you, otherwise you wouldn't show such dogged loyalty. I'd really like to know what it is.
If you mean this seriously, I'd not be adverse to email with you, to let you know some of the more intimate things that I have experienced with M and Knowledge. I don't feel right posting these things on a public forum.
I don't remember whether I've seen your address on any of your posts, so I've put my email address on this post, and if you'd like me to email you back, just send me a note using your email. I promise not to give it to anyone or to post it anywhere.
I know I'm famous for procrastination, but I also enjoy writing a long letter every once in a while.
Hello op
I use 'from the void' because for a while now I'm going to be off-line and looking-in via other people's net facilities. The question, however, was genuine. I've got your e-mail and will make contact.
PS: when I received, K I think the fourth commandment went 'never put off till tomorrow what you can do today'. I don't know whether that's supposed to include replying to electronic mail. Either way, it might be some time in my case, too.
Best wishes
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Date: Sat, Jan 17, 1998 at 23:10:23 (EST)
Poster: ultra materialistic
Email: b
To: bftb
Subject: indeed (Re: Prempal .....)
Message:
Hi been there,
Perhaps she will answer that one.
I'm curious as well.
The grateful dead comes to mind, they would play and
the taper freaks would so an assessment of the show and
it would be some talk of how jerry and the band were
so tight and beyond and how jerry was doing this
cosmic thing to everybody and that and later in the
dead mag from nycity the roadie would make some comment
how bad the infighting was and how jerry can't stand
some of bob's songs and brent was pissing everybody off
and jerry walked off the stage during the start of a brent
song that was supposidly about brents old girlfriend
but brent had been singing it about jerry and the lyrics
chorused 'and I don't need you!' at the top of his lungs,
ect. Meanwhile the ticketholders were all aglow with
the whole incredibleness of the magic of the dead.
I remember being at programs in the early eighties
and the tone and words maharaji spoke were hard and
not leaveing me in a good place but next it was arti
and by the end of that everybody was back in the lord
vibe.
I'm not really hot on changeing the next person,
expecially the lifers, but they like to express themselves
so what the heck, might as well poke around like you are.
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Date: Sun, Jan 18, 1998 at 00:26:50 (EST)
Poster: Not so void Nigel
Email:
To: Nigel
Subject: Re: Prempal .....
Message:
Dear Nigel:
I didn't mean to imply that you are void, I understood the implication. I was writing to that great cosmic self you are implying by being 'from the void...'
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Date: Sun, Jan 18, 1998 at 11:03:28 (EST)
Poster: captain clearlight
Email:
To: ultra materialistic
Subject: Re: indeed (Re: Prempal .....)
Message:
"I don't need love and I don't need you"-what a bringdown it was when it would be a brent song.He was a glorified michael mcdonald(no offence to any doobies fans)great keyboard player/backup singer,terribly lame songwriter of the sappiest dumbest reo speedwagon meets mid80's doobie bros.ballads.Can't blame old jer for walking off.
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Date: Sun, Jan 18, 1998 at 13:26:50 (EST)
Poster: Capt.
Email: b
To: captain clearlight
Subject: beyond (Re: Prempal .....)
Message:
Got to agree with you on that one.
CL. He did do some nice things in concert when he
just played. I have a few tapes from the eighties where
he had a good night.
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Date: Tues, Jan 20, 1998 at 03:17:54 (EST)
Poster: op
Email:
To: bftb
Subject: Re: Prempal .....
Message:
And I would think that given certain experiences that you had around M that you _know_ were real because they were your personal experiences there's no way anything real or fictional said about him could sway your opinion because you _know_he's the real thing.
Around M and with M and with Knowledge. And before meeting M, in such a way that what M did and said became an integral part of the whole experience.
This is the part that I still find the most puzzling:I had certain experiences that indicated to me that M _is_ facilitating something.So I can understand that ultimately it won't make a difference to you how he lives or if he ever pow-wows with those who feel he betrayed their trust. I really think I do understand.
I've said over and over, and I know it's not believed here, or that I'm blaming those who post here (which I'm not): whenever I've felt that there is separation, misunderstanding, confusion, doubt - all those 'negative' things - I've waited it out. I've found, every time, that there is an answer around the corner, and so far that hasn't let me down.
As to how other people react to doubts, I really can't say. I wouldn't presume that M has never addressed those who've turned away, but I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for him to write a letter to you here, either. I mentioned that he HAS had some meetings over the past two years with people who had stopped practicing for many years.
Am I off base? How do you reconcile his dispensing abilities vis a vis his seemingly ultra materialistic way of living?
First of all, I don't find his way of living ultra-materialistic. He enjoys life, he works hard, he has a goal that he is working toward. And although I see that the path has changed direction a few times to get out of the brambles (or, more to this century, to get out of turbulence), I don't find that he's changed his goal or the basics of how to get there. And by brambles or turbulence I don't mean hot water. I mean obstacles that prevent any further forward motion.
Along with his appreciation of excellence, he's taught quite a few people to upgrade their standards. To take care of themselves externally as well as internally.
So I don't feel I have to reconcile anything. His lifestyle is fine with me. I don't wish I had a Rolls or a thousand dollar watch. I may wish once in a while that I could keep pace with the energy he expends when he travels around the world, but mostly I watch with amazement at all that he accomplishes.
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Date: Wed, Jan 14, 1998 at 00:24:23 (EST)
Poster: Sir David
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: Everyone
Subject: What's Kant got to do with it?
Message:
Way down in the depths Seymour wrote: "but it seems that David is advising hard core porn as a suitable direction to take after leaving DLM. I am not sure about this - I think my Catholic upbringingand shyness would prevent me from getting in to it all. Besides I do not agree with treating people as objects and it seems that the porn
business does this to the extreme degree. Kant would never have approved - he suggested it was wrong to use people in anyway (even bus drivers) purely to satisfy your own needs or wants."
Well Seymour, you want to critisise me so you'll get my answer. For a start you can't have even read my posts properly since I don't sell or make hardcore porn. I'm certainly not advising anyone to get into my business either, why, they'd be competition. But it's the bit where you talk about treating people as objects which is just so wrong. That's your perspective, not mine. A female is not an object to me, neither to the people who watch these videos. They are something to be admired and appreciated. I guess I mentioned my business in the first place to illustrate just how far away I'd got from the premie trip. And then you tell me that Kant wouldn't approve. Who the hell's he, some philosopher. Why is his view so special? Your own view would be more relevant.
You say, wrong to use people to satisfy needs and desires!? Get real brother. This is the real world where capitalism rules. Everybody's using everybody else to get what they want, everybody's out to provide a service and satisfy you, for money. The ISP you're using are providing you with a service for money. You're using them now to satisfy your own needs and desires. When you watch a film on TV the actors have been payed to satisfy your needs and desires. My films are no different. Everyone's happy, the models, the customers, my employees and me. What's the problem. Perhaps it's the unmentionable Catholic sin of "self abuse" which throws you...
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Date: Wed, Jan 14, 1998 at 11:12:30 (EST)
Poster: John K.
Email:
To: Sir David
Subject: Re: What's Kant got to do with it?
Message:
I think Seymour was being cute. Saying he's too shy to get into the porn business!
Hey Seymour, you know what Emerson said, "do what you fear most"! Don't let a little timidity hold you back.
Interesting though the reference to Kant. It really does sound as if Seymour follows Kant's teachings.
I don't think you even need to get into capitalism to defend using people. I like it when people want to use me. Isn't that what life's all about? Or am I misunderstanding something.
Certainly if people have gifts, talents, skills, other people will want to make use of them and who are we to deny them that chance?
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Date: Wed, Jan 14, 1998 at 11:56:21 (EST)
Poster: Rick
Email: rtaraday@hotmail.com
To: Sir David
Subject: Re: What's Kant got to do with it?
Message:
I'd have to agree with you, David, about Seymour missing the target. Without having seen your videos, it's impossible to say anything about them. And since it's nobody's business, it isn't even a point. Kant is even more irrelevant. Even for someone who's read Kant thoroughly, their perspective of his ideas can differ from other readers.
Totally unrelated to you, I do think it's possible to use people. It's not a simple issue, though. I think most of us feel maharaji used us. The polar opposite of using someone would be loving them unconditionally, which seems to be a rare event (I know it is for me). So you're right in saying that most people use most people, to some extent. I do think that it is unfortunate, and I wish I did better. And perhaps it is worthwhile to endeavor to not use people, although somewhat unrealistic, considering the world's state of affairs. It's so nice when the main focus is appreciating someone on the level of a friend, and all the other benefits that may follow, are incidental. Something to shoot for, anyway. Cheers.
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Date: Wed, Jan 14, 1998 at 13:00:02 (EST)
Poster: Mr Ex
Email:
To: Rick
Subject: Re: What's Kant got to do with it?
Message:
This is becoming very interesting.
Where is the limit between 'using' and abusing?
Could we say that 'using' is when partners have enough knowledge of what the deal implies,
and abusing starts when someone is 'used' beyond his conscious choice?
What is 'conscious choice'?
Could we say that maharaji keeps aspirants and premies from making conscious choices by the use of manipulating techniques?
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Date: Wed, Jan 14, 1998 at 19:45:33 (EST)
Poster: Sir David
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: Rick
Subject: Re: What's Kant got to do with it?
Message:
Interesting points John K and Rick. I realised after I posted that of course, when people get in the sack together they are directly using someone else to satisfy their needs and desires. No capitalism there either. Yes I agree John K, that we all use each other to satisfy needs and desires and ideally such a thing is mutually appreciated. Ideally, but it's not a perfect world is it.
Yes and I like people to need me as well. To answer your point Rick, I think the only unconditional love I really know is for my children and I guess that's the same for most parents. We all have to make a living though and many of our relationships with people are bound up with money. This is one big break I had from premiedom - when I put my feet back down on the earth and realised that living and thinking like a premie and seeing the world as a foriegn place was doing me no good at all. So I learned to embrace the world rather than run away from it. And you know what? I found the world and people in it to be a pretty good place to get along in. This was a major revelation to me after my years of premiedom. I guess most guys find their feet in the world in their twenties but because I'd been a renounced premie in my twenties that never happened.
All Maharaji's talk about avoiding this world etc. I now realised was utter crap. Sure it's not perfect but it's not something to be avoided and learning to establish myself in the world was the main turning point for me. I can't believe the duality that Maharaji propogates about his world and the other world. Well I can believe it but it's complete bullshit actually. Somewhere else someone asked why people left Maharaji. With me it was when I realised that despite all the heavy satsang and effort, nobody was any closer to "realising the knowledge" and clearly Maharaji's path was leading to nowhere. It took me years to deprogramme myself and realise that the world wasn't going to swallow me up but in actual fact, was a good place to do business in (in all senses of the word). It also took years for me to realise that my personality was OK and that I didn't have to try to become something I wasn't. The layers of bullshit do not disappear overnight. It's an ongoing process for all of us.
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Date: Wed, Jan 14, 1998 at 20:14:09 (EST)
Poster: Sir David
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: Mr Ex
Subject: Re: What's Kant got to do with it?
Message:
That's a very true point there, Mr Ex and I agree entirely. A mutually agreed contract does not imply abuse unless it is broken by deceit. Maharaji once said, "Surrender the reins of your life to me and I will give you such a peace as will never die." For me personally, I had far more peace from the knowledge BEFORE I surrendered my life to him. Once I surrendered the reins it was turmoil and a disaster for me.
________________________________________________________
Always it was, well you have to surrender a bit more before it all happens. Throughout the seventies we were busting out guts trying but the myth could not be perpetuated forever now could it.
I think Maharaji is being deceitful regarding the aspirant programme. Last year one woman said that she went to receive K and was suddenlt told that she must have absolutely NO religious affiliations with ANY religion at all in order to receive K. This was a shock to her and of course, she was deemed unsuitable. In my experience, the meditation techniques will work equally well for a Christian, Jew or an athiest. Clearly, Maharaji is hindering the spreading of K. He must be trying to get devotees, rather than spread the simple benefits of meditation to the masses.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 15, 1998 at 00:40:20 (EST)
Poster: Sir David
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: John K.
Subject: Re: What's Kant got to do with it?
Message:
I just read it again John where you said: "I don't think you even need to get into capitalism to defend using
people. I like it when people want to use me. Isn't that what life's
all about? Or am I misunderstanding something."
No you're not missing anything. Having thought about it, I would say that all personal and work relationships are based on people using each other to mutual advantage. I think we NEED to use each other. Perhaps a better term would be "help" each other. This mutual to-ing and fro-ing is what keeps the world going and it is what keeps us together. This is most apparent in business where the expression, "I'll scratch your back if you'll scratch mine" holds universally true and the basis of all business.
Our personal relationships are the same. People need people. This is something M tried to eradicate. He tried to change millions of years of evolved human nature. He didn't stand a cat in hells chance.
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Date: Fri, Jan 16, 1998 at 16:01:56 (EST)
Poster: seymour
Email:
To: Sir David
Subject: Re: What's Kant got to do with it?
Message:
David, I did not intend to criticise you at all. My original post asked what ex-premies had found to replace their practice of knowledge as a tool to self improvement and reaching a higher level of consciosness. Your reply simply stated that you had found pornography. I do not get much time on the net and I do not now have time to address your post but I will try to on the weekend but please do not think I am making any kind of personal attack - perhaps I was being a little too facetious and not being serious enough - for which I am sorry you took it the wrong way.
I just thought that your suggestion was not quite my cup of tea.
I'll be in touch,
Best Wishes
Seymour.
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Date: Fri, Jan 16, 1998 at 21:27:42 (EST)
Poster: Sir David
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: seymour
Subject: Re: What's Kant got to do with it?
Message:
Understood and forgive my hot headed reactionary behavour, you know how defensive some of us ex-premies can get.
I guess it's my cup of tea because I am at heart a drop out, eccentric or whatever term applies and I never did fit into mainstream life, even before I was a premie. Before I was a hippie I was a semi professional racing cyclist, soon to join a fully pro team in France or Belgium. I could never hack the nine till five work ethic.
After hippydom I became a premie and was totally unsuccessful in the premie world and the real world until I decided, enough was enough and I'll do it my own way thank you very much!
I fit into the adult video scene because the people in it are unorthodox, like me and we get along fine. The girls don't want to be stuck in offices all day and they love the life; from making videos for old hands like me to doing exotic photo shoots in far away sunny locations abroad, they love the freedom of the life. I've made some good friends in the business although I don't tend to mix with other photographers much. You'd be surprised at what those girls who appear in the men's magazines are really like once you get to know them. Just great, warm hearted friendly girls. A real pleasure to know.
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Date: Sat, Jan 17, 1998 at 07:36:47 (EST)
Poster: Seymour
Email: seymour_t@rocketmail.com
To: Sir David
Subject: Re: What's Kant got to do with it?
Message:
Hello David,
You wrote:-
"The girls don't want to be stuck in offices all day and
they love the life; from making videos for old hands like me to doing exotic photo shoots in far away sunny locations abroad, they love the freedom of the life. I've made some good friends in the business although I don't tend to mix
with other photographers much. You'd be surprised at what those girls who appear in the men's magazines are really like once you get to know them."
I would not be surprised that these are good people why should they be any different from dentists, taxi drivers, the unemployed or anyone but doing something because you do not want to be stuck in an office all day is surely not enough of a reason and going to exotic locations etc. is,in my opinion, a rather shallow motivation. We did not get involved, however mistakenly, with Maharaji to visit exotic locations etc. - it was to fulfil our need to realise our potential as human beings and rise above the suffering of the world we live in. That is the sort of motivation that should be driving us still - even though we have to make a living we should still try and keep it in mind rather than take the 'opium' that the media and peer pressure would have us indulge in so that they can profit.
Used and confused?
I am sorry that I do not have a lot of time to contribute more to the forum but during the week there is only time to travel to work (up to 2 hours each way) put in my 40+ hours at the office, come home have dinner watch an hour or so of T.V. and go to bed exhausted. The weekends are also filled with the work I have to take home, domestic chores, and spending time with my family and friends. I also try and pursue a few artistic pursuits (such as music production) and continue the academic studies that I started when I did my degree in Philosophy and psychology. There are not enough hours in the day.
I would like to answer David who seemed to object to my mention of Kant in relation to his film making work. It is true, for the reasons above that I have not read all your posts so I do not presume to know anything about your work in the porn industry . To be honest I have never given much thought to this area of life since I was a spotty, hormone infused, adolescent and do not even know what the difference is between hard and soft porn.( You say that I accused you of indulging in ‘hardcore’ but I did not say this or even mean to imply it. )
I object to your dismissal of Kant who, although a bit idealistic at times, was one of out greatest thinkers who, along with Aristotle, Wittgenstein, and a few others have helped humanity to understand what life is all about. You say that I should not quote from him but give my own views which is fair enough, but I can’t help drawing on what I have read when I communicate and I would rather attribute insight to the person who turned me on to it than to say it was my own discovery.
My point about not ‘using’ people still stands. I do believe it is necessary to use the skills of others to fulfil our needs and I am only too glad when someone chooses to use whatever I can offer to help someone else achieve their goal, or overcome some obstacle - when someone pays us for these efforts we make a living. It is the use of people as sources of pleasure for its own sake that I find hard to understand. I do not wish to provide someone with the means to fulfil some perverted desire nor do I wish to pursue the fulfilment of any desire just to gain some thrill.
I do not believe in God and my remark about Catholicism was not meant to be taken seriously as I realised shortly after my first communion that the church was not for me and I have since had 30+ years to get over any indoctrination my school gave me ( my parents were less than devout ).
I would call myself a humanist but that does not stop me having ethics which are very important to me and are just as important as the morals of religious zealots. The difference being that ethics must be discovered for yourself whereas the morals of most people are given through commandments or other doctrine.
I am afraid that this could turn out to be a lengthy thesis but I will try and wrap it up by saying that all I meant in my previous post was that since leaving knowledge my investigations into life has taught me that we should have great respect for our fellow creatures. My devotion has moved from ‘God’ to humanity and I think that we are evolving towards something wonderful but by indulging in selfish gratification we will never get there. Although I have long ago ceased to believe in the supernatural nonsense that is a part of most religions, I still think there is much wisdom in some scriptures.
That bit in the Bhagavad Gita about not paying attention to the objects of desire as even when your desire is fulfilled it will only create the desire to repeat the experience and if you can not fulfil your desire when you want to it will lead to frustration which in turn will lead to anger etc, etc. This still has the ring of truth about it.
I believe each moment is precious and although I am all for entertainment I find it very shallow without some sort of ‘artistic’ or spiritual core. Something to uplift the spirit and help us to find joy rather than pleasure which from the standpoint of someone who has little experience of porn films seems to be sadly lacking in the seedy shops I pass in Soho or the content of the magazines on the top shelf at the newsagents.
Before I got knowledge I wanted to find something better than this world of sensationalism and pursuit of happiness through self indulgence and I have not let up in that wish since abandoning knowledge.
I refuse to except your view of this dog eat dog commercial world. I still think there is some magic out there I just find it hard to imagine it is in the porn video industry - please correct me if I am wrong.
Best wishes
Seymour
p.s.
Please don't take my criticisms personally. I get carried away and enjoy exploring new aspects of life - as you can see even expressing opinions when I do not have any experience.
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Date: Sun, Jan 18, 1998 at 13:35:00 (EST)
Poster: Seymour
Email: **b
To: Seymour
Subject: Light (Re: What's Kant got to do with it?)
Message:
Hi Seymour light,
Too bad you got to go but come around when you can.
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Date: Mon, Jan 12, 1998 at 01:23:58 (EST)
Poster: Sir David
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: Everyone
Subject: It could have been worse
Message:
There I was, having a bad acid trip at a pop festival in England in 1972. It was raining and everybody was squelching about in the mud. I couldn't find my friends anywhere and I was freaked out and lonely.
Then a lovely Jesus freak girl came up to me and talked to me. I immediately fell in love with her and she gave me her address at the Children of God place and I said I'd see her there. A few days later I arrived there but she wasn't there. However, my a miracle two of my old friends were there and had become Children of God. I was all set to join but they said I couldn't move into the house for three days until some guy had moved out. They gave me some money and I left them, promising to come back in three days.
The squat I'd crashed in had closed down so I thought I'd check out the DLM satsang and see if someone there could help me with a bed for the night. I never thought that the bed for the night would turn out to be quite like it did!
It is strange how a chance decision can have such dramatic effect on things, isn't it. Thanks for the meditation techniques Maharaji, or I should say, thanks Prakash Bai Ji. But no thanks for all the hell I was put through afterwards. But then, it could have been worse.
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Date: Mon, Jan 12, 1998 at 10:33:23 (EST)
Poster: John K.
Email: kreilkamp@mindspring.com
To: Sir David
Subject: Re: It could have been worse
Message:
Just a few comments, if I could play devil's advocate, or I guess it's guru's advocate:
I think that getting yourself checked into an ashram where lsd and other drugs were not allowed was a very good thing for you and who knows maybe you should be eternally grateful to those friends who got you checked into it.
Given that you were coming off an acid trip, don't you think you got what you deserved?
Wasn't one alternative that you meet another friend, not into a spiritual trip, who hands you some more acid, and then what could have happened?
For every person that people claim found their way to mental illness or death thru contact with the guru, I can name you ten who found their way to mental illness and death through drugs, alcohol, abusive families, etc.
the guru trip is hardly as dangerous as dropping acid.
the guru trip is hardly as dangerous as alcohol abuse.
you are absolutely right, it could have been a helluva worse.
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Date: Mon, Jan 12, 1998 at 10:51:31 (EST)
Poster: And On Anand Ji
Email: aoa
To: John K.
Subject: Re: It could have been worse
Message:
Just a few comments, if I could play devil's advocate, or I guess it's guru's advocate:
I think that getting yourself checked into an ashram where lsd and other drugs were not allowed was a very good thing for you and who knows maybe you should be eternally grateful to those friends who got you checked into it.
Given that you were coming off an acid trip, don't you think you got what you deserved?
Wasn't one alternative that you meet another friend, not into a spiritual trip, who hands you some more acid, and then what could have happened?
For every person that people claim found their way to mental illness or death thru contact with the guru, I can name you ten who found their way to mental illness and death through drugs, alcohol, abusive families, etc.
the guru trip is hardly as dangerous as dropping acid.
the guru trip is hardly as dangerous as alcohol abuse.
you are absolutely right, it could have been a helluva worse.
Well it was what it was -- wasn't it?
I certainly had my troubles, before and since. My mother was fond of this expression: "well it's better than a poke in the eye with a sharp stick, isn't it?"
What a grim outlook, Mommy.
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Date: Mon, Jan 12, 1998 at 12:37:15 (EST)
Poster: John K.
Email:
To: And On Anand Ji
Subject: Re: It could have been worse
Message:
Wow, your mommy sounds like my mommy.
She loves to quote the great Russian writer who said, 'life is hard, but fortunately, it's also short'
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Date: Mon, Jan 12, 1998 at 12:55:12 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: John K.
Subject: Re: It could have been worse
Message:
When people say wasting years of your life being celibate, uninvolved in important civic or humanitarian causes, ignoring all preparation for a career, missing out on important events with your family and friends, missing other important relationship experiences, and turing over all your money so some fraud could have yet another residence, plane or luxury car, when people say that that kind of a life "could have been worse," I like to use the expression my mommy used to use, which was that that statement is "damning by faint praise."
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Date: Mon, Jan 12, 1998 at 15:11:31 (EST)
Poster: Sir David
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: John K.
Subject: Re: It could have been worse
Message:
What I meant is that I nearly joined Moses David's "Children of God" cult. I'd already decided I'd had enough of acid.
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Date: Mon, Jan 12, 1998 at 20:26:40 (EST)
Poster: a.
Email:
To: John K.
Subject: Re: It could have been worse
Message:
thanks john k.
and there but for fortune goes I.
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Date: Mon, Jan 12, 1998 at 21:56:24 (EST)
Poster: Gregg
Email: gpainter@denvr.uswest.net
To: Sir David
Subject: Re: It could have been worse
Message:
Nice story. It could have been better, for some of us, though. And maybe for you too.
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Date: Sun, Jan 11, 1998 at 14:21:00 (EST)
Poster: And On Anand Ji
Email: and_on_anand@yahoo.com
To: --------
Subject: Ontology depletion zone
Message:
A person who successfully sifts through the info
found on www.ex-premie.org will (perhaps) come to
an assessment of their own personal ontology (set
of things said to exist in one's world).
When they encounter this site, thier ontology
(most often) would include existance of the
satguru. When they leave, having digested all
that is currently offered here (in static
content, anyway) they're apt to depart with a
depleted ontology: the Universe they knew,
minus one satguru.
That is sad -- very sad.
Perhaps, then, this website is an ontology depletion zone.
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Date: Sun, Jan 11, 1998 at 16:18:36 (EST)
Poster: Anon
Email:
To: And On Anand Ji
Subject: Re: Ontology depletion zone
Message:
A person who successfully sifts through the info
found on www.ex-premie.org will (perhaps) come to
an assessment of their own personal ontology (set
of things said to exist in one's world).
When they encounter this site, thier ontology
(most often) would include existance of the
satguru. When they leave, having digested all
that is currently offered here (in static
content, anyway) they're apt to depart with a
depleted ontology: the Universe they knew,
minus one satguru.
That is sad -- very sad.
Perhaps, then, this website is an ontology depletion zone.
a) Nobody is supposed to assess their existence through this site.
b) What is offered here are a few facts and opinions which paint a different picture of the satguru (who himself is quite busy spreading his particular ontology) It's called "Freedom of Speech"
c)not all people are so stupid as to evaluate him on what they read in one unashamedly and blatant anti-guru site.
d) for one who uses clever words like "ontology" your spelling is sad..very sad :)
Back To Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Sun, Jan 11, 1998 at 16:27:20 (EST)
Poster: A
Email: aerily@aol.com
To: And On Anand Ji
Subject: Re: Ontology depletion zone
Message:
Perhaps, then, this website is an ontology depletion zone.
I like this concept, and the combination of words. But I have found the reverse -- i.e. an ontology augmentation zone -- I was not previously aware of all the cranky (and not cranky, and/or otherwise) ex-premies; so my little fantasy world has been enlarged and enriched. Thoughts have even been provoked! (this is now allowed, of course)
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Date: Sun, Jan 11, 1998 at 18:50:06 (EST)
Poster: Sure, it's an adjustment,
Email: b
To: And On Anand Ji
Subject: But you are quite good at resiliance and pluck. (Re: Ontology depletion zone)
Message:
plenty of people have proven that all the words here
don't make a dent at all.
People like myself should have access to information
which can help me make an informed decision about
what I am most involved in.
My father said a few times that we should not assume.
I see where he assumed and now I see that I assumed
maharaji was not lying to me when he said he was the
lord. Big assumption, huge consequences.
It is good to have some way to check your data on a subject.
This site can help if that is someones' intent.
I didn't lose a lord, I gained a fresh opportunity to
check out the power of life for myself.
I am grateful for the loss of a misconception.
The sadness is replaced by discovery of some things.
The tooth fairy, santa, easter bunny, and our human idols
all turn out to be less than advertised.
Very few are more gopi oriented than I. And it was a slow
extrication from the quicksand but certainly is worth it.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Sun, Jan 11, 1998 at 21:36:24 (EST)
Poster: gregg
Email:
To: And On Anand Ji
Subject: Re: Ontology depletion zone
Message:
I should mention something that should go without saying: the idea that there is at any one time only one "satguru" is one that is not supported in scripture or by rational thought. It is as absurd as the Christian "one way" dogma.
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Date: Sun, Jan 11, 1998 at 21:36:28 (EST)
Poster: gregg
Email:
To: And On Anand Ji
Subject: Re: Ontology depletion zone
Message:
I should mention something that should go without saying: the idea that there is at any one time only one "satguru" is one that is not supported in scripture or by rational thought. It is as absurd as the Christian "one way" dogma.
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Date: Sun, Jan 11, 1998 at 22:29:06 (EST)
Poster: Djoi
Email:
To: Sure, it's an adjustment,
Subject: Re: But you are quite good at resiliance and pluck. (Re: Ontology depletion zone)
Message:
plenty of people have proven that all the words here
don't make a dent at all.
People like myself should have access to information
which can help me make an informed decision about
what I am most involved in.
My father said a few times that we should not assume.
I see where he assumed and now I see that I assumed
maharaji was not lying to me when he said he was the
lord. Big assumption, huge consequences.
It is good to have some way to check your data on a subject.
This site can help if that is someones' intent.
I didn't lose a lord, I gained a fresh opportunity to
check out the power of life for myself.
I am grateful for the loss of a misconception.
The sadness is replaced by discovery of some things.
The tooth fairy, santa, easter bunny, and our human idols
all turn out to be less than advertised.
Very few are more gopi oriented than I. And it was a slow
extrication from the quicksand but certainly is worth it.
You mean, the tooth fairy isn't real?
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Date: Sun, Jan 11, 1998 at 22:32:22 (EST)
Poster: Djoi
Email:
To: Sure, it's an adjustment,
Subject: Re: But you are quite good at resiliance and pluck. (Re: Ontology depletion zone)
Message:
If you choose to forget the magic,
life become tragic.
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Date: Sun, Jan 11, 1998 at 23:21:23 (EST)
Poster: Joy
Email:
To: Djoi
Subject: Re: But you are quite good at resiliance and pluck. (Re: Ontology depletion zone)
Message:
If you choose to forget the magic,
life become tragic.
Are you implying by this that Maharaji is the only way to experience magic in one's life?
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Date: Mon, Jan 12, 1998 at 00:54:16 (EST)
Poster: Sir David
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: Djoi
Subject: Re: But you are quite good at resiliance and pluck. (Re: Ontology depletion zone)
Message:
What magic? The magic of a semi retired man who is in conflict with himself and who hits the bottle a little on the hard side?
The magic of group hysteria as all the old grey haired premies turn out to see him?
Or are you refering to magic of the soul. That magic is always there, for everybody and anybody who is human. It isn't just restricted to certain people.
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Date: Mon, Jan 12, 1998 at 01:51:13 (EST)
Poster: And On Anand Ji
Email: aoa
To: Anon
Subject: Re: Ontology depletion zone
Message:
A person who successfully sifts through the info
found on www.ex-premie.org will (perhaps) come to
an assessment of their own personal ontology (set
of things said to exist in one's world).
When they encounter this site, thier ontology
(most often) would include existance of the
satguru. When they leave, having digested all
that is currently offered here (in static
content, anyway) they're apt to depart with a
depleted ontology: the Universe they knew,
minus one satguru.
That is sad -- very sad.
Perhaps, then, this website is an ontology depletion zone.
a) Nobody is supposed to assess their existence through this site.
b) What is offered here are a few facts and opinions which paint a different picture of the satguru (who himself is quite busy spreading his particular ontology) It's called 'Freedom of Speech'
c)not all people are so stupid as to evaluate him on what they read in one unashamedly and blatant anti-guru site.
d) for one who uses clever words like 'ontology' your spelling is sad..very sad :)
I read what you say because irrespective of your
errors, I'm apt to pick up on something useful or
otherwise informative -- most information has some
noise, and some signal.
I feel confident I can sift which.
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Date: Mon, Jan 12, 1998 at 02:56:31 (EST)
Poster: And On Anand Ji
Email: aoa
To: A
Subject: Re: Ontology depletion zone
Message:
Perhaps, then, this website is an ontology depletion zone.
I like this concept, and the combination of words. But I have found the reverse -- i.e. an ontology augmentation zone -- I was not previously aware of all the cranky (and not cranky, and/or otherwise) ex-premies; so my little fantasy world has been enlarged and enriched. Thoughts have even been provoked! (this is now allowed, of course)
That's pretty good. I like it! Thank you.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Mon, Jan 12, 1998 at 03:12:15 (EST)
Poster: And On Anand Ji
Email: aoa
To: Sure, it's an adjustment,
Subject: Re: But you are quite good at resiliance and pluck. (Re: Ontology depletion zone)
Message:
plenty of people have proven that all the words here
don't make a dent at all.
People like myself should have access to information
which can help me make an informed decision about
what I am most involved in.
My father said a few times that we should not assume.
I see where he assumed and now I see that I assumed
maharaji was not lying to me when he said he was the
lord. Big assumption, huge consequences.
It is good to have some way to check your data on a subject.
This site can help if that is someones' intent.
I didn't lose a lord, I gained a fresh opportunity to
check out the power of life for myself.
I am grateful for the loss of a misconception.
The sadness is replaced by discovery of some things.
The tooth fairy, santa, easter bunny, and our human idols
all turn out to be less than advertised.
Very few are more gopi oriented than I. And it was a slow
extrication from the quicksand but certainly is worth it.
The giveaway was the eggs -- bunnies don't lay eggs.
If you made it like, the easter bunny brought you a
carrot, I bet it'd take kids a lot longer to figure
it out because, sure, he's got carrots. Lots of 'em.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Mon, Jan 12, 1998 at 05:34:43 (EST)
Poster: A
Email:
To: And On Anand Ji
Subject: Re: But you are quite good at resiliance and pluck. (Re: Ontology depletion zone)
Message:
>
The giveaway was the eggs -- bunnies don't lay eggs.
If you made it like, the easter bunny brought you a
carrot, I bet it'd take kids a lot longer to figure
it out because, sure, he's got carrots. Lots of 'em. but are carrots carried in baskets by bunnies in bonnets? Or not, which?? carrots in baskets?
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Date: Mon, Jan 12, 1998 at 05:37:07 (EST)
Poster: a
Email:
To: b
Subject: Re: But you are quite good at resiliance and pluck. (Re: Ontology depletion zone)
Message:
and does anyone know who was responsible for dying those little chicks pink and green? I dont think it was Maharaji.
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Date: Mon, Jan 12, 1998 at 10:47:34 (EST)
Poster: And On Anand Ji
Email: aoa
To: --------
Subject: Re: Ontology depletion zone
Message:
Perhaps, then, this website is an ontology depletion zone.
I like this concept, and the combination of words. But I have found the reverse -- i.e. an ontology augmentation zone -- I was not previously aware of all the cranky (and not cranky, and/or otherwise) ex-premies; so my little fantasy world has been enlarged and enriched. Thoughts have even been provoked! (this is now allowed, of course)
That's pretty good. I like it! Thank you.
Even so, where there once existed a rich cornucopia of lore related to the existence of the living perfect master, there is now a void: gone, is the idea that Shri Hans Ji Maharaj was the living perfect master of his time. And, perhaps, there has never been one living perfect master, or lord, to visit with humanity and to bring hope to a troubled people.
--------
I don't know how to say this, so I'll just say it: these are all qualified "perhaps" -- in the sense that they reflect my own personal ontology, as it exists today. Don't forget, as recently as a month ago, my ontology did include a living perfect master -- I was too lazy to question, because I didn't see the harm in belief in Maharaji.
I see the harm now.
I'm not saying there is inherently a harm to belief. Or that it is an objective truth, that the harm is there. I'm saying it's my belief, that such is there. There's a difference! After all, a while ago, I believed differently. Just as strongly, and with just as much a conviction in an "objective" truth about it all.
I saw one thing. Now I see another.
AS FAR AS I'M CONCERNED every statement made by every person is automatically prefaced with a qualifying phrase such as "in my opinion" or "I think" or "it's my theory that .. ". It's implied: that what I say is my thinking on something; that it is my best thinking, and that it is my own thinking, unless I say otherwise (and I have a responsibility to credit other sources, if such be the case). Except perhaps "best" -- it may just be my present thinking, rather than my best. :)
These are the limits of discourse, in my opinion.
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Date: Mon, Jan 12, 1998 at 16:45:06 (EST)
Poster: magic is conjered up,
Email: b
To: Djoi
Subject: reality is constant (Re: Ontology depletion zone)
Message:
Yes you are right.
But without specifying what the magic is it leaves
it vague.
The magic is that we are alive,
that we live in a beautiful and wonderous and wildly
inventive universe.
that there is awareness and all our options,
that we can freely discern if we choose to,
that there is a friendly power,
that I can make the most of my moments,
that in reality, there is no other person involved,
that I can leave fantasy and just walk with the power
and I need no other religious understanding or person.
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Date: Mon, Jan 12, 1998 at 16:52:05 (EST)
Poster: colored
Email: b
To: a
Subject: chicks (Re: Ontology depletion zone)
Message:
Hi Aierily!
well that would be dyeing.
So what did you get the kids fer christmas?
I had one of those colored chicks, grew up to be a fiesty
rooster so we gave it to a farmer.
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Date: Mon, Jan 12, 1998 at 17:17:53 (EST)
Poster: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net
To: And On Anand Ji
Subject: Re: Ontology depletion zone
Message:
Wow, this is the first time I've seen anyone use the word 'ontology' outside of a Systematic Theology class!
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Date: Mon, Jan 12, 1998 at 20:31:13 (EST)
Poster: A
Email:
To: colored
Subject: Re: chicks (Re: Ontology depletion zone)
Message:
Hi Aierily!
well that would be dyeing.
So what did you get the kids fer christmas?
I had one of those colored chicks, grew up to be a fiesty
rooster so we gave it to a farmer.
new bedsheets, a rug, upon which winnie ther pooh tries to do a somersault with a honey bucket upon his head, and piglet is not there
a cotton blanket
a bear
some pornogphraphic photography books
We had a weasel who always ate the chicks before they could die of ink poisoning.
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Date: Mon, Jan 12, 1998 at 22:29:00 (EST)
Poster: John K.
Email: yackityyack
To: And On Anand Ji
Subject: Re: Ontology depletion zone
Message:
Okay, I am now mounting my soap box, or is it a cloned sheep...anyway
The essence of this whole incredible trip was that I believed gmj to be the superior power in person.
First a word about the creator...the creator does not care about me, that's ME as in ME. If the creator cared about me it would not have made me lose all my beautiful hair, well almost all of it. And this after I expressly prayed to the creator begging him not to make me lose my hair. So don't tell me about God's love. God does not love me the way I want to be loved. God did not create this creation the way I wanted it. Believe me, it would be very different if it was the way I wanted it. For one thing, there would not be any suffering. Just a minor detail, right? I mean, God and me, we are at opposite ends of the spectrum when it comes to understanding each other. I don't understand a creator that creates a creation in which the dominant theme is suffering.
I mean I just don't get it at all.
So, in my roundabout way I am trying to say that given how weird the creator is, you know, that it creates a world in which we all suffer so much, how unbelievable is it that the creator would come down and not behave exactly as we want him to behave. That is, spend too much on material objects, drink too much, whatever it is that he does that we don't approve of. Mismanage the ashrams, ignore me, make people do mean things to me, etc.
Accepting that gmj was the superior power in person meant that I gave up all rights to judging him.
Ok, that was my understanding of all that.
Now, what happened to me?
I gradually came around to realizing that I was in a no win situation.
It's just not a fun game playing guru-devotee or creator-creature if the creator can do whatever the hell it wants to you and you just have to accept it.
In essence I got tired of the game because it IS a game to pretend that someone else is the creator.
But here is the happy ending, for me anyway. Freeing myself from the no win situation of surrenduring my life to someone who never really showed they even knew I existed, has made my life better.
My ontology has not been depleted at all. In fact, I believe my ontology had narrowed itself to practically nothing when I was a devotee of the guru. There was only one thing - that was focus on the guru.
By getting out of that relationship, my self opens up gradually to include more and more possibilities.
So, I have now fallen off my soap box in absolute bliss, I am free!!!!
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Date: Tues, Jan 13, 1998 at 00:11:03 (EST)
Poster: D'joie
Email: debicon@erols.com
To: Joy
Subject: Experience the magic. (Re: Ontology depletion zone)
Message:
If you choose to forget the magic,
life become tragic.
Are you implying by this that Maharaji is the only way to experience magic in one's life?
No, not at all.
Translation to my poetic interlude:
Life is magic.
I make no other implication.
You can experience magic in your life without Maharaji. But you do need to focus on the magic to experience it. (And no, I'm not saying Maharaji is the magic to focus on. Please don't interpret my words.)
It's your attitude, your love, your effort, your energy, your concentration - that brings you to the magic.
It seems to me that many of the people that post here are focused on something other than the magic of life. Maybe they are benefiting psychologically from their negative and catty rantings.
I do hope that in other areas of their life they do experience magic, that they have not become completely cynical, that they are joyful.
I hope that sometime they do experience the connection a human being can have to this life.
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Date: Tues, Jan 13, 1998 at 00:16:44 (EST)
Poster: D'Joie
Email:
To: Sir David
Subject: Refer to "experience the magic" above (Re: Ontology depletion zone)
Message:
The magic of the soul. I like that. Yes.
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Date: Tues, Jan 13, 1998 at 04:58:24 (EST)
Poster: Mr Ex
Email:
To: John K.
Subject: Re: Ontology depletion zone
Message:
Reading this discussion recalls me of one of m’s favorite stories.
Most of us heard dozens of different versions, I’ll give mine.
There was once a guy who wanted knowledge.
He was told there was a master, and he went to see him.
The master asks him what he wants, and the guy says :
I want you to teach me, give me knowledge.
The master says : OK, if you want to receive my
knowledge, you’ll have to watch me. I’ll do something in front of you.
You won’t be allowed to say anything. If you say anything
you’ll be disqualified and I won’t teach you my knowledge.
The aspirant says to himself : fine, how easy. I won’t utter
a word, couldn’t be easier. I’ll keep my mouth shut, that’s all.
So the master goes to a well and takes a bucket to bring out water.
But the bucket is full of holes, and as soon as the master lifts the
bucket, all the water leaks out, and the bucket is empty by the time it gets out of the well.
The master does it the first time, and the aspirant thinks : how weird,but Ok, I’ll keep my mouth shut.
Second time, the aspirant thinks : the master is never going to get any water this way, but as I shouldn’t say anything, I won’t say what I think.
Third time, the aspirant thinks : how could he be a master when he doesn’t know that you can’t get water with a bucket full of holes. This is weird, but I won’t say anything.
By the 5th time, the aspirant cannot resist anymore, and he explodes: I’ve watched you doing this for a while. This bucket is full of holes and you’ll never get any water this way. If you don’t understand this simple thing, how could you be a master and teach me the supreme knowledge.
And the master answers him: I told you to keep your mouth shut. This bucket is full of holes, and so is your mind. How could I teach you anything when your mind is full of holes.
Maharaji told this story dozens of times during the past years.
I now understand how that kind of story was a part of m’s
technique to make me blind and stupid.
If you don’t believe in this BS, you can’t be an aspirant,
and obviously not a premie ......
I like to recall that kind of stories, all these lies
I’ve heard for years, and all these strange facts that prove
maharaji’s doubtful and rude behavior:
This is what I endured for years, and this is how this so
called ‘master’ teaches ...
Everybody can draw his own conclusions from these facts.
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Date: Tues, Jan 13, 1998 at 06:35:01 (EST)
Poster: Mr Ex
Email:
To: Mr Ex
Subject: What I mean to say ... (Re: Ontology depletion zone)
Message:
What I mean to say through this quote is that:
in the old time, we had the commandments, the ashrams,
the initiator's or co-ordinators heavy satsang
now aspirants and premies get maharaji's rhetoric &
sophisms,
and instead of obeying commandments blindly
they blindly follow his 'world of knowledge' theory and rules.
This is what he calls 'redefined reality'.
Very smart.
And very dangerous.
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Date: Tues, Jan 13, 1998 at 12:12:33 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email: joger02@aol.com
To: John K.
Subject: Re: Ontology depletion zone
Message:
John, very interesting, but something you mentioned isn't clear to me. You said that "freeing" yourself from the "no win" situation of surrender to the guru has made your life better. I would agree the same thing happened to me, but are you saying this because it feels so good to stop beating your head against a wall, or because you actually got something out of the "no win" situation, I mean, besides the knowledge that it's a real drag?
JW
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Date: Tues, Jan 13, 1998 at 13:59:18 (EST)
Poster: John K.
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: Ontology depletion zone
Message:
Wellll, it's impossible to judge at this point whether I would have been better off to have NEVER followed a guru.
Nietzsche (sp?) said 'whatever does not kill you, is good for you'.
Is that the original 'pain is gain' theory?
But look, I think that there comes a time in every creature's life when it should seek out the creator.
Now, scientists creatures like Hawkins, are doing the same thing really, what's different is that they are seeking answers in the physical creation, still it's seeking answers to the big questions.
I think it's very natural and very logical to think that the creator would make a physical appearance in its creation. So, I am not of the opinion that I went temporarily crazy when I decided to put my eggs in the guru basket. Yes, I am in a way, glad to have done it.
But you asked if I believe I am better off now because I am out of it or because I went through it.
I think I believe: I am better off having gone through it.
After all, I would not be engaging in this conversation if I had not.
Now that view of mine is very subject to change, since it's really not been more than what, six weeks or less, that I have been even thinking about all this stuff again.
But don't you think you gained *wisdom* in some way shape or form from those years you beat your head against the wall trying to surrender that which cannot be surrendered?
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Date: Tues, Jan 13, 1998 at 18:09:14 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: John K.
Subject: Re: Ontology depletion zone
Message:
John, I don't entirely disagree, but I think I would have gained "wisdom" in the sense that I would have learned things, including learning or gaining the "wisdom" of what I don't like, by being in prison. It is almost impossible to do anything and not get something positive out of it. But, frankly, I think I gave up things in my life like personal freedom, and personal values, and just plain living life the way I would have wanted to, which was a cost many times more than I got out of following a charlatan "creator." I think what the what-doesn't-kill-you-is-good-for-you, adage just means you learn from everything and that adds to your wisdom and ability to survive. But when one asks if it was a good thing to have followed Maharaji, you have to ask "compared to what?" and "at what cost?" I mean engaging in this discussion is nice, but, frankly, there are lots of interesting things to talk about.
I don't think I ever thought I was seeking out the creator. And although I was raised catholic, I don't even know if there is a creator, let alone if he or she is walking among us and if he or she was, if I would really be interested in meeting him or her.
I do think I was looking for love and fulfillment and a chance to help bring peace and love to what seemed to me to be a world that was suffering, and once I found someone who I believed was god incarnate, I certainly wasn't going to risk not devoting myself to him just because I would rather lead a self-directed life. So I gave that up for a good 10 years.
So, if you ask would I rather that the whole premie thing for me hadn't happened, the answer is "absolutely!" If I could have those 10 years to do the things I really wanted to do instead of what Maharaji said I was supposed to do, well I would rather have done that, because it just wasn't worth it. The cost was too high and the benefits too low. And one of the costs was I hurt a lot of people who love me. They've forgiven me, but I don't like that that happened.
Now I know you can't re-run history to see what my life would have been like otherwise, but at least it would have been MY life, instead of his.
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Date: Sun, Jan 11, 1998 at 13:37:05 (EST)
Poster: seymour
Email: seymour_t@rocketmail.com
To: Nigel
Subject: Nigel - don't go away just yet.
Message:
Excellent 'journey' Nigel, I am sure these stories will help give another view to those thinking of getting Knowledge - which is something none of us had. I do not know if it will make anyone change their mind but at least they have been warned and if they feel disappointed with their experience of being premie then they may remember that there were a few other disillusioned ex-premies and come to the site or forum for a bit of support should they wish to leave.
You wrote that in your aspirant days you were told :-
"you must detach yourself from all the pleasures, desires, ambitions of this world and surrender completely to Guru Maharaj ji, and let Knowledge become THE WHOLE of your existence. Maharaj ji himself was saying this in every single address." I wonder if aspirants are told this nowadays?
You expressed very well the subtlety of how we get roped in - especially if we have experienced a recent tragedy. At least G.M. does not go through the listings of deaths each day and target the bereaved for a comforting visit to offer them solace in joining the cult as it has been reported other groups do. ( I hope this doesn't give any premies ideas)
Your also wrote "When I still thought premie thoughts I used to rationalise this to myself, and to others, by saying at least when people receive Knowledge they are more likely to become the sort of people who will do good for others, than they were before. " I shared this belief - one of the main reasons for receiving knowledge was to become a better person - but it never happened. I might have had a few good experiences but everything became centred around what I could do for G.M. and how I could increase my experience of knowledge. The rest of the world could go to hell and deserved to if they got in my way of serving the Lord. We all must cringe at the memories.
Another quote from your story -
"The Birmingham event (1986) was more like a business convention. .... There was a question-and-answer session in which old premies asked things like: 'why can't we have sating anymore?' I don't remember any of the answers, but the experience was very underwhelming. It may have been the same man talking about the same Knowledge - but you would never have known it. They might as well have entitled it 'A baffling seminar on self-realisation by Mr Prem Pal Rawat, homespun philosopher and meditation consultant'. Maharaj ji hadn't been around for a while and I think there was a lot of deep confusion in that hall. The audience had all at some time 'surrendered the reins of their life' to this man, believing his claims to be the Living Perfect Master, now returned to human form 'with more grace, and more power than ever before' who said he would 'establish peace on earth in my lifetime'.
I went home and never returned. The anger came later, as, over the years, I became much happier without Knowledge than I had ever been whilst practising it, and soon I was an out-and-out sceptic about all so-called spiritual paths. "
Uncanny similarity to my own, and a few others, experience. If you get the time read my 'journey ' to find almost the same story.
Well done Nigel - and lets have some more 'journeys' from all you thousands that tune in to this site and forum.
I did post another message to you down deep in the forum asking for an e-mail. Hope you can send it.
Cheers,
Seymour.
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Date: Tues, Jan 13, 1998 at 20:28:48 (EST)
Poster: Nigel from the void
Email:
To: seymour
Subject: Re: Nigel - don't go away just yet.
Message:
Excellent 'journey' Nigel, I am sure these stories will help give another view to those thinking of getting Knowledge - which is something none of us had. I do not know if it will make anyone change their mind but at least they have been warned and if they feel disappointed with their experience of being premie then they may remember that there were a few other disillusioned ex-premies and come to the site or forum for a bit of support should they wish to leave.
You wrote that in your aspirant days you were told :-
'you must detach yourself from all the pleasures, desires, ambitions of this world and surrender completely to Guru Maharaj ji, and let Knowledge become THE WHOLE of your existence. Maharaj ji himself was saying this in every single address.' I wonder if aspirants are told this nowadays?
You expressed very well the subtlety of how we get roped in - especially if we have experienced a recent tragedy. At least G.M. does not go through the listings of deaths each day and target the bereaved for a comforting visit to offer them solace in joining the cult as it has been reported other groups do. ( I hope this doesn't give any premies ideas)
Your also wrote 'When I still thought premie thoughts I used to rationalise this to myself, and to others, by saying at least when people receive Knowledge they are more likely to become the sort of people who will do good for others, than they were before. ' I shared this belief - one of the main reasons for receiving knowledge was to become a better person - but it never happened. I might have had a few good experiences but everything became centred around what I could do for G.M. and how I could increase my experience of knowledge. The rest of the world could go to hell and deserved to if they got in my way of serving the Lord. We all must cringe at the memories.
Another quote from your story -
'The Birmingham event (1986) was more like a business convention. .... There was a question-and-answer session in which old premies asked things like: 'why can't we have sating anymore?' I don't remember any of the answers, but the experience was very underwhelming. It may have been the same man talking about the same Knowledge - but you would never have known it. They might as well have entitled it 'A baffling seminar on self-realisation by Mr Prem Pal Rawat, homespun philosopher and meditation consultant'. Maharaj ji hadn't been around for a while and I think there was a lot of deep confusion in that hall. The audience had all at some time 'surrendered the reins of their life' to this man, believing his claims to be the Living Perfect Master, now returned to human form 'with more grace, and more power than ever before' who said he would 'establish peace on earth in my lifetime'.
I went home and never returned. The anger came later, as, over the years, I became much happier without Knowledge than I had ever been whilst practising it, and soon I was an out-and-out sceptic about all so-called spiritual paths. '
Uncanny similarity to my own, and a few others, experience. If you get the time read my 'journey ' to find almost the same story.
Well done Nigel - and lets have some more 'journeys' from all you thousands that tune in to this site and forum.
I did post another message to you down deep in the forum asking for an e-mail. Hope you can send it.
Cheers,
Seymour.
Hello Seymour, I've replied lower down but I just realised you might miss it. I've just read your 'journey'. Astonishing stuff. I'm impressed by the way you wouldn't pranam etc., when everybody else was, and how you were a couple of feet away from the boy/god himself on all those occasions, yet were clearly NOT having a darshan experience, yet a few years later you were just like the rest of us suckers.
Much to discuss here. I will make contact in due course.
Best wishes
Nigel
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Date: Sun, Jan 11, 1998 at 13:31:14 (EST)
Poster: seymour
Email: seymour_t@rocketmail.com
To: Jim
Subject: moving on..revisited
Message:
Thanks for your response Jim. I have heard of Terence McKenna and Dawkins but I am not familiar with Martin Gardner. I would be grateful for any info on any of them i.e. book titles etc.
Please, if you can find the time 'turn me on' to evolutionary theory. I have a little knowledge of Darwin etc. but not much.
I appreciated your reply - it sounds like you are gaining a little wisdom on the path of life. I bet you didn’t read much of that stuff when you were a premie. After all, G.M. said philosophy was a waste of time.
I enjoy reading your posts - I wish I had more time to join in with the forum but I only get on the net for an hour or so each week. It’s a hard life here in London but I hope to have more time in the next year.
Please keep in touch if you can(could you send me your e-mail address I seem to have lost it) and thanks again.
All the best,
Seymour
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Date: Sat, Jan 10, 1998 at 14:08:05 (EST)
Poster: Terry
Email:
To: All
Subject: Bye
Message:
Well!....I think the site has become a bit monotonous, with all the moaning and childish word wars. Especially the way Milli was treated. You can only rehash a subject so much. Maharaji done this and Maharaji done that. I personally love the guy, but if you don't, then look for something that you do love.
Be positive. It can't do you any harm to get some joy in your lives. It sounds like you are all near deaths door.
Just look at your messages. Not even a hint of humor.
Surely it can't be all that bad!
But then some people just like to be sooo serious and miserable.
It's easy to call someones character into question. All you need is a web page.
Why don't you rename this site...Call it.....
THE POWER OF NEGATIVE THINKING AND WHAT IT CAN DO FOR YOU HELP FORUM. or
JW AND KATIES DOCTORS AND NURSES PAGE.
HAHAHA sorry JW. Just Joking.
Got to go and get a cold beer. (Its Saturday night..YESS)
Good luck xxx
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Date: Sat, Jan 10, 1998 at 18:14:19 (EST)
Poster: this ain't fer
Email: b
To: Terry
Subject: everybody (Re: Bye)
Message:
Boy, why do you dismiss my humor so totally?
Sometimes when you are realizing things as you are
typing, you get fired up by the recognition, but to
paint this whole scene with a broad a brush as you
choose is not exactly accurate.
Yes it is saturday night, yes you can get a beer,
but for those that followed the living lord,
saturday night was out and beer also.
I'm not sure how much luck is involved, but I think it
is only a small factor in life usually.
It's best for mili that he take a break. Whatever
drove him to do it might have been worth it for him.
He will return.
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Date: Sat, Jan 10, 1998 at 19:21:17 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: Terry
Subject: Re: Bye
Message:
Terry, maybe this forum really isn't humorless, maybe the humor just goes over your head. Ever think of that?
I know that "negativity" is a cardinal sin in the premie world, but I think you should realize there is a difference between being "negative" and being objective and between being "positive" and being naive.
If anyone has told you who you should or shouldn't love, don't listen to them.
Terry, if the subject of this page bothers you, how about another subject that is heavily on my mind today. Do you think there is any way the San Francisco 49ers can beat the Green Bay Packers tomorrow? I am very worried.
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Date: Sat, Jan 10, 1998 at 20:54:51 (EST)
Poster: John K.
Email:
To: Terry
Subject: Re: Bye
Message:
It's amazing to me, really amazing, I mean I am aMAZed by the number of people who post one time, insult everyone, and then split.
Like, WHAT is the point?
Take this so called 'Terry'. How could Terry really be reading the posts if Terry says they are humorless?
I try very hard to add some humor, levity to the situation here for crying out loud!
And do you appreciate it? NO!
Look, Terry, I am soooo glad I won't be reading another post from you, really, I mean I hope you were sincere when you said adios. Because your post was real NEGATIVE. It was also devoid of humor. It's funny (or is it not funny) how when someone insults someone, they are usually guilty of what they are accusing the other person of.
So that means right now, I am being humorless and negative.
But I'm having fun, so I don't really care!
Joe, your concern about the 49ers concerns me. football is all about hard bodies hitting other hard bodies as hard as they can. I get nervous watching football because I keep trying to imagine getting hit real hard by a real hard body. I can't sit still and watch football I have to keep moving so I can get out of the way quick!
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Date: Sat, Jan 10, 1998 at 21:57:23 (EST)
Poster: Sir David
Email:
To: John K.
Subject: Re: Bye
Message:
This Terry guy isn't a patch on old TRUE PRIMIE. Now why did you have to frighten him away?
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Date: Sat, Jan 10, 1998 at 22:56:57 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: John K.
Subject: Re: Bye
Message:
Thanks, John, well done. I laughed out loud reading your post.
About football. I don't know why I like to watch it. I mean, it is a pretty pointless game. But they wear good equipment so it's not just bodies hitting bodies, but you're right, some of those guys are HUGE and you have to be HUGE yourself not to be crushed. But there is also some finesse and beauty in football, and maybe it's the military precision you see when a play is executed perfectly that's great to see. So, who knows?
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Date: Sun, Jan 11, 1998 at 09:56:07 (EST)
Poster: Mike
Email: bigguy32@juno.com
To: JW
Subject: Re: Bye
Message:
"Do you think there is any way the San Francisco 49ers can beat the Green Bay Packers tomorrow? I am very worried"
Joe, you didn't waste your money on Green Bay did you?
"About football. I don't know why I like to watch it. I mean, it is a pretty pointless game. But they wear good equipment so it's not just bodies hitting bodies, but you're right, some of those guys are HUGE and you have to be HUGE yourself not to be crushed. But there is also some finesse and beauty in football, and maybe it's the military precision you see when a play is executed perfectly that's great to see. So, who knows?"
You've difinitely got a dark side. I prefer Kendo and Rugby.
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Date: Sun, Jan 11, 1998 at 10:12:19 (EST)
Poster: Mike
Email: Mike
To: Terry
Subject: What forum have you been on? (Re: Bye)
Message:
Terry, I do agree that this forum can become monotonous at times however, we've also been guilty of being to flip and silly about important matters.
As for humorless, where have you been these past few months... I've seen some great humor here on the forum. Brian, Joe, Katie, Op, CD, John, David and Nigel have been hoots.
The problem with most forums in my opinion is that since we take everything directly into our heads without sometimes first filtering what belongs to us and what doesn't... there is a tendency to react (sometimes harshly) to what's being said.
We do have a common base of reference (i.e., PPR). Some of us are for him and some are not. However, PPR is not always the same droning subject.
As for milli, you might want to look at the alt.cult.maharaji thread and see what he sent to the Webmaster there. In a nutshell, he attacked the newsnet and us and requested that this website be removed.
We may not all agree however, it's been my experience that we agree to disagree here on this forum. Sometimes it gets out of hand and we have to slow our horses down a bit. But, the important thing is that people from all walks of life wake up each day and look forward to talking to people around the planet who they've never met in person.
Now, if we can turn in our song books to: "Mounting of the sheep."
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Date: Sun, Jan 11, 1998 at 11:18:31 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: Mike
Subject: Re: Bye
Message:
I could never put money on a team opposing the 49ers, and I think the 49ers can win, but the Packers look really good and I'm trying to be realistic. Plus, my secretary absolutely lives for the 49ers and she won't be much fun to work with tomorrow if they lose.
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Date: Sun, Jan 11, 1998 at 15:02:41 (EST)
Poster: bftb
Email:
To: John K.
Subject: Re: Bye
Message:
It's amazing to me, really amazing, I mean I am aMAZed by the number of people who post one time, insult everyone, and then split.
Like, WHAT is the point?
Take this so called 'Terry'. How could Terry really be reading the posts if Terry says they are humorless?
I try very hard to add some humor, levity to the situation here for crying out loud!
And do you appreciate it? NO!
Look, Terry, I am soooo glad I won't be reading another post from you, really, I mean I hope you were sincere when you said adios. Because your post was real NEGATIVE. It was also devoid of humor. It's funny (or is it not funny) how when someone insults someone, they are usually guilty of what they are accusing the other person of.
So that means right now, I am being humorless and negative.
But I'm having fun, so I don't really care!
Joe, your concern about the 49ers concerns me. football is all about hard bodies hitting other hard bodies as hard as they can. I get nervous watching football because I keep trying to imagine getting hit real hard by a real hard body. I can't sit still and watch football I have to keep moving so I can get out of the way quick!
Actually 'Terry' posted previously as 'Andrew'(yes,our committee has thusly concluded)so this fellow did feel he earned his right to stampede through the chinashop.
I am aMAZed that you found this post humorless.I found it to be filled with a subtle,yet glaringly present ironic humor.
I do hope he returns to cheer all us void dwellers up again.
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Date: Sun, Jan 11, 1998 at 17:39:49 (EST)
Poster: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net
To: JW
Subject: Re: Bye
Message:
Thanks, John, well done. I laughed out loud reading your post.
About football. I don't know why I like to watch it. I mean, it is a pretty pointless game. But they wear good equipment so it's not just bodies hitting bodies, but you're right, some of those guys are HUGE and you have to be HUGE yourself not to be crushed. But there is also some finesse and beauty in football, and maybe it's the military precision you see when a play is executed perfectly that's great to see. So, who knows?
NINERS!!!!!!!!!
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Date: Sun, Jan 11, 1998 at 19:42:41 (EST)
Poster: John K.
Email:
To: Sir David
Subject: Re: Bye
Message:
Just curious, but what does 'patch' mean?
and is TRUE PRIMIE a typo or is that somehow different from a premie?
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Date: Mon, Jan 12, 1998 at 01:24:36 (EST)
Poster: a
Email:
To: John K.
Subject: hardbodies (Re: Bye)
Message:
I get nervous watching football because I keep trying to imagine getting hit real hard by a real hard body. I can't sit still and watch football I have to keep moving so I can get out of the way quick!YES!!! i can't watch it at all, one of those guys would squastch me in one small collision
does anyone on this forum know about subatomic particles and soforth?
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Date: Mon, Jan 12, 1998 at 03:30:50 (EST)
Poster: And On Anand Ji
Email: aoa
To: --------
Subject: Re: What forum have you been on? (Re: Bye)
Message:
Now, if we can turn in our song books to: 'Mounting of the sheep.'
It's ok to mount a
cloned sheep, but you can't mount the original - that'd
be original sin.
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Date: Mon, Jan 12, 1998 at 16:58:55 (EST)
Poster: not so
Email: b
To: a
Subject: hard bodies (Re: Bye)
Message:
yes
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Date: Sat, Jan 10, 1998 at 12:20:33 (EST)
Poster: AWS
Email: aerily@aol.com
To: Anyone
Subject: Another Perspective
Message:
[This is a re-post, with apologies if due to JW, Brian, BB, et al. for using your space here]
For anyone coming upon this Forum for the first time,
I think it is worthwhile to make this point:
that although most people who post here
are not favorably disposed towards Maharaji,
there are many who respect him highly and value his teaching.
The Knowledge which he offers is a highly individual experience,
and each person must come to his or her own individual conclusions.
Some here claim that Maharaji is dangerous;
that people are brainwashed, and lured into a cult
from which it is difficult to escape.
My own experience of knowing Maharaji
and being a student of his for twenty-five years
is so very different from that claim, that I wonder at times
if I have stumbled through the looking glass into this forum,
another dimension entirely.
My own perspective:
Maharaji has been the catalyst in my life for so much growth;
he has inspired me, and challenged me;
he has empowered me to know myself, to face life, and death, and fear;
to become a student of Life itself, the omnipresent teacher.
He has shown me a simple way to connect my awareness
within myself, to clarity and stillness of mind;
and encouraged me over and over again
to look there, within myself, for truth.
From there I have learned much about love, compassion,
understanding, true strength, courage, real freedom;
there within myself I have discovered the thread
which connects human beings to one another:
the delicate, powerful, exquisitely beautiful thread of life itself.
I have many times heard Maharaji encourage those who were listening
to him, to question, to test the Knowledge, to think, to feel,
to trust themselves; and to freely walk away
if dissatisfied with what he offers.
Annie Sosman
http://members.aol.com/aerily/index.html
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Date: Mon, Jan 12, 1998 at 05:05:18 (EST)
Poster: Mr Ex
Email:
To: AWS
Subject: Re: Another Perspective
Message:
How funny this PR post!
(I’m almost sure that you’ve spent hours with some friends in your PR staff to polish this post, maybe with Ros Sutton’s help. It is so similar to dozens of these phony speeches and reports I’ve seen in EV).
It recalls me of something maharaji said during the last Long Beach conference.
He was talking about his ‘benchmark’ to judge his work, speaking of those thousands of satisfied followers, thousands and thousands of aspirants in India etc.
Listening to his reasoning (and also checking in with the data I have), I couldn’t help wondering how m could lie to himself (and obviously to premies) so much: he knows perfectly well how many people received ‘knowledge’, and how many people are still listening to him and practicing (less than ever).
About 90% of the people receiving ‘knowledge’ leave sooner or later.
Any business with that average of customer’s satisfaction ratio would be questionable, any sane manager would question his business, and anybody hearing that kind of phony report would have every right to think it’s ridiculous and that the manager is insane or a liar.
More than this, he also said in the same speech that premies shouldn’t bother at all for fire and problems starting here and there, that they should proceed and follow him blindly and support his propagation business. M has the right perspective and the true vision, no need to be intelligent when you ‘serve’ him, blabla, all this example about Laksman serving Ram, remember?
How can a sane person buy this?
I did for 25 years.
And I’m not insane.
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Date: Mon, Jan 12, 1998 at 06:17:30 (EST)
Poster: A
Email: aerily@aol.com
To: Mr Eggs
Subject: Another Nother Perspective, Not Unrelated to Nuemenons, or nuemonae (Re: Another Perspective)
Message:
How funny this PR post!
(I¹m almost sure that you¹ve spent hours with some friends in your PR staff to polish this post, maybe with Ros Sutton¹s help. It is so similar to dozens of these phony speeches and reports I¹ve seen in EV).
I would bet all of my savings & income that one day you will again feel doubtful, and question much that you believe today. We are not fixed, finished creatures. We are living, changing with every single instant of time.
Those who have been affected by Maharaji have been affected; something has been quickened. I say for better, you say for worse. Yet the goodwill of those who write here, and look honestly at the differences expressed on this forum, without judgement, is testimony to the common beauty of each one writing. Maharaji has impacted and inspired even those who vilify him. A quickening of consciousness. Is it universal? i think the consciousness, yes; but the awakening?
who knows the friend in their heart well enough to lay their head inside on that friend's shoulder "when sadness lays its cold fist" on their own
I have no pr staff.
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Date: Mon, Jan 12, 1998 at 09:35:09 (EST)
Poster: Mr Ex
Email:
To: A
Subject: Re: Another Nother Perspective, Not Unrelated to Nuemenons, or nuemonae (Re: Another Perspective)
Message:
>I would bet all of my savings & income that one day you
>will again feel doubtful, and question much that you believe
>today. We are not fixed, finished creatures. We are living,
>changing with every single instant of time.
Of course ......
But this is no excuse to any of those lies I mentioned in my post.
I may improve my mathematics, but there is only one way
for counting people in an audience.
Do you understand that m is telling lies, how do you use your
intelligence to cope with these.
>Those who have been affected by Maharaji have been affected;
>something has been quickened. I say for better, you say for worse.
I’m also mentioning these thousands and thousands of people
who left in disgust (90% is nothing to neglect).
Some people obviously enjoyed m’s teaching and m’s worshipping
(essential part of the practice as he recalled in Taiwan and
in Amaroo). I did too for 25 years without any question.
I now realize it’s been extremely harmful for me and for some
of my friends.
You’ll have some of them posting on this forum in a few days.
Some are VERY angry and pissed.
>Yet the goodwill of those who write here,
>and look honestly at the differences expressed on this forum,
>without judgment, is testimony to the common beauty of each
>one writing.
Do you honestly find beauty in EACH posting?
I can repost a few things that NO premie will like.
Will you find beauty in those?
>Maharaji has impacted and inspired even those who vilify him.
>A quickening of consciousness. Is it universal?
>i think the consciousness, yes; but the awakening?
I do not deny what m showed me, nor do I deny
the help I got to practice meditation that i’m still enjoying.
What I say (and obviously some other ex’s) is that m
is a very deceitful guru, for all reasons previously
detailed in some excellent posts.
I perfectly understand that some people won’t agree
my opinion.
Again : Meditation is one thing. Being involved in a cult
where you worship a guru, and surrender your life to
him is another issue.
Yes m is inspiring people to meditate.
Yes m is inspiring people to serve him blindly (‘participation’
speech in Long Beach), to work for him as slaves (willingly)
building and maintaining his residences, yes m is inspiring
people to give him (without pressure) money through
Elan Vital charity registered organization.
I agree.
>who knows the friend in their heart well enough to lay their
>head inside on that friend's shoulder 'when sadness lays its
>cold fist' on their own
That’s exactly the point.
Why don’t you add ‘at his Lotus Feet’?
I agree it’s not always available .....
I do feel sad sometimes. No need of Mr Rawat’s
lap to weep into. That has been ridiculous, I’m ashamed
of this, and there won’t be any need of this EVER.
>I have no pr staff.
Are you a member of EV’s PR staff?
Are you involved with EV’s organization, at any level?
I won’t believe you if you say no.
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Date: Mon, Jan 12, 1998 at 17:13:40 (EST)
Poster: Annie
Email: b
To: Mr Ex
Subject: fanny bo banny (Re: Another Perspective)
Message:
Actually x-man, annie is a mom of three and not that
plugged into the mission.
She is on the east coast and not near the action.
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Date: Tues, Jan 13, 1998 at 03:34:25 (EST)
Poster: Mr Ex
Email:
To: Annie
Subject: Re: fanny bo banny (Re: Another Perspective)
Message:
Thank you,
but
this doesn't answer any of my questions to A/Annie ....
Too challenging?
She easily answers some questions,
she doesn't for these ...
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Date: Wed, Jan 14, 1998 at 06:45:19 (EST)
Poster: Annie
Email: aerily@aol.com
To: Mr Eggs
Subject: Response to Mr. X's Challenging Questions (Re: Another Perspective)
Message:
Question #1: "Do you understand that m is telling lies, how do you use your intelligence to cope with these."
Answer #1: I have no personal knowledge of Maharaji telling lies, therefore no need to cope. Numbers of premies, etc. is not relevant to me.
Question #2: "Do you honestly find beauty in EACH posting?"
Answer #2: No, I do not. I do however find beauty in each person writing. Perhaps you misunderstood my words.
Question #3: "Why don¹t you add Œat his Lotus Feet¹?"
Answer #3: It would be off-topic. I am speaking of something within my own self.
Question #4: "I can repost a few things that NO premie will like. Will you find beauty in those?"
Answer #4: I have no scientific or document evidence as yet that I am able to accurately predict the future, which includes my own possible reactions to things. Therefore I can only speculate on this. It is likely, knowing me, that if I didn't find them beautiful the first time, I still won't find them beautiful if you post them again, assuming I read them, which is unlikely. However, I do know that many times, upon taking a closer second look at things, I find beauty where I once did not. Still, I would venture to guess that no, I would not find them a bit beautiful.
Question #5: "Are you a member of EV¹s PR staff?"
Answer #5: I am not a member of EV's PR staff.
Question #6: "Are you involved with EV¹s organization, at any level?"
Answer #6: By including the words "at any level" you may be cleverly laying a trap for me, Mister X. But other than a pathetic practice of Knowledge and rarely attending a local video and seeing Maharaji perhaps once a year in recent times, the answer is no.
"I won¹t believe you if you say no."
Okay. Will you believe me if I say yes I am? Or will you see right through me?
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Date: Wed, Jan 14, 1998 at 11:48:29 (EST)
Poster: Mr Ex
Email:
To: Annie
Subject: Re: Response to Mr. X's Challenging Questions (Re: Another Perspective)
Message:
I'm nor impressed!
Typical premie's answer ....
How could you THINK on your own
How could you see anything but truth in whatever m says?
Did you ever think that something maharaji says couldn't be true?
Is it possible that he could make some mistake? or be wrong?
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Date: Wed, Jan 14, 1998 at 13:07:11 (EST)
Poster: op
Email:
To: Mr Ex
Subject: Re: Response to Mr. X's Challenging Questions (Re: Another Perspective)
Message:
I'm nor impressed!
Typical premie's answer ....
How could you THINK on your own
How could you see anything but truth in whatever m says?
Did you ever think that something maharaji says couldn't be true?
Is it possible that he could make some mistake? or be wrong?
I'm not very impressed either - by your response to Annie's response.
It takes a bit of a stretch, I know, but it just so happens that some premies can think.
This whole 'typical' premie thing should be thrown out the window. You don't like it when all the exes are lumped together as a gestalt personality. It just so happens that premies do not share one mentality, one personality, one whatever.
One of the things that impressed me most when I first ran into premies (as I've mentioned on more than one occasion on this forum) was the diversity. Lots of different ages, walks of life, backgrounds, lifestyles. Poetically, lots of colorful flowers in the garland. And what joins the garland together - the string - does not absorb their color, their scent, their various shapes. It simply joins them together so they can be, as it were, a team working together.
If you've been around as much as you say over the past 25 years, and as close to M as you claim, you cannot have failed to notice this.
I'm not a 'joiner'. Before receiving Knowledge, I'd never joined a political party, never been initiated into any spiritual discipline - although I'd studied, attended meetings, discussed and practiced a multitude of different things.
One of the things that most impressed me about premies was the LACK of lingo, of uniforms. It's true that the Indian (especially vegetarian) lifestyle was touted for a while, and that the ashram had dress codes that were sometimes laughable (all the guys who weren't PR and therefore deserving of top quality suits looked like they were wearing castoffs from an old funeral parlor, for example). But anyone who's been around since the early 80s or so knows this hasn't been the focus for a VERY long time. And never should have been.
I loved the fact that everyone who spoke had a different voice, a different way of expressing their gratitude, love, admiration for that thread that unites them. I loved going to a huge event and seeing the street singers and the lawyers and the carpenters and the secretaries. The jocks, the punks, the hippies, the yuppies...the indians, the asians, the africans, the europeans, the south americans, the australians, the arabs.
So in all this diversity, we have the 'typical premie's answer'? The lumping together of all human flesh into one fantasy mold seems to call you insistently. This is called a 'facile' answer. You just stick a label on, toss it back, and claim to be an expert.
There is no typical premie, just as there is no typical 'ex'. Please remember that.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 15, 1998 at 04:43:54 (EST)
Poster: Mr Ex
Email:
To: op and Annie
Subject: Typical premie (Re: Another Perspective)
Message:
Dear OP,
>It takes a bit of a stretch, I know, but it just so happens that some premies can think.
I admit I exaggerate a bit. When I say ‘typical’ , I’m referring to people like me (like I was anyway). What I find odd, thinking about it, is that Annie answers like many premies I know very well would answer, and like I’d have 2 years ago. No thinking of her own, home made answers coming directly out of maharaji’s theory or some instructors speech, you perfectly understand what I’m talking about. You’ve met plenty of people thinking and talking this way if your are involved in EV at any level, which I assume you do.
>This whole 'typical' premie thing should be thrown out the window. You don't like it >when all the exes are lumped together as a gestalt personality. It just so happens that >premies do not share one mentality, one personality, one whatever.
I agree with you .... except for one detail most of them share: blind faith and belief, follow m blindly in his projects, because that’s what he is asking for! Did you listen to what he said in the last Long Beach event during his ‘participation’ conference? It would be very interesting to post that part of his speech! M has always been asking for that implicitly. Following him this way (blindly and faithfully) takes you automatically to this thinking (not thinking to certain things) mode. That’s my point.
>One of the things that impressed me most when I first ran into premies (as I've >mentioned on more than one occasion on this forum) was the diversity. Lots of >different ages, walks of life, backgrounds, lifestyles.
I’ve been impressed by this too. So many beautiful people. They still are!
What I finally discovered was wrong is not obvious from outside for those who get trapped. I discussed this with friends who came, looked, listened, and very easily understood all this, and left running. It was a big question for me for a while: how come that some people can come and question all this immediately, and some people (like you and me) didn’t?
I don’t believe in this BS about ‘grace’ anymore, I’m sorry.
Some people like me (and many others obviously) didn’t realize this at the beginning. Most of them (90%) did after some time and left, some (like me) remained blind for a long time.
> Poetically, lots of colorful flowers >in the garland. And what joins the garland together >- the string - does not absorb their >color, their scent, their various shapes. It simply >joins them together so they can be, as >it were, a team working together.
How beautiful, I like that image: be like a lower in the garland around Maharaji’s neck!
Still alive ...... more than ever!
>If you've been around as much as you say over the past 25 years, and as close to M >as you claim, you cannot have failed to notice this.
Of course I did. And I now think this is a symptom of craziness. There is no such string, except in m’s imagination and many premies obviously. What can I say. There are plenty of groups sharing that type of delirious idea. That can lead to anything but the realization of your own life. You become a part someone else’s life and imagination, this is what I call brainwashing. And you realize some other people’s dreams: this is what’s usually called indoctrination.
If you are aware of this, and if that’s your purpose in life: FINE.
>I'm not a 'joiner'. Before receiving Knowledge, I'd never joined a political party, never >been initiated into any spiritual discipline - although I'd studied, attended meetings, >discussed and practiced a multitude of different things.
>One of the things that most impressed me about premies was the LACK of lingo, of >uniforms. It's true that the Indian (especially vegetarian) lifestyle was touted for a >while, and that the ashram had dress codes that were sometimes laughable (all the >guys who weren't PR and therefore deserving of top quality suits looked like they were >wearing castoffs from an old funeral parlor, for example). But anyone who's been >around since the early 80s or so knows this hasn't been the focus for a VERY long >time. And never should have been.
Don’t you remember what was said at that time? That it’s was m’s wish to see his premies likes this, and his premies do this, the ashrams like this (so many ashram meetings) and all this BS.
Again, what does this mean ‘never should have been’ ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
Maharaji always claimed to be the Master and having control over what’s happening in DLM/EV!
Can you question this or his authority? And his mahatma’s and instructors? ? ?
Let’s say I’m the boss in my company. I’ll be responsible for ANYTHING happening in my company. I’ll be responsible for ANY dissatisfied customer.
Do you recall what m said in the last Long Beach event: don’t care and proceed! ! ! ! ! !
Is maharaji responsible for anything? Can you tell me what precisely?
We always come back to that same issue.
>I loved the fact that everyone who spoke had a different voice, a different way of >expressing their gratitude, love, admiration for that thread that unites them. I loved >going to a huge event and seeing the street singers and the lawyers and the >carpenters and the secretaries. The jocks, the punks, the hippies, the yuppies...the >indians, the asians, the africans, the europeans, the south americans, the australians, >the arabs.
That’s very seducing of course. Like any group behaving like this.
THIS DOESN’T PROVE A THING about what’s behind it. It just shows that there is something behind. This is exactly what should be suspicious. There is no easy solution in this world. This is a big issue.
>So in all this diversity, we have the 'typical premie's answer'? The lumping together of >all human flesh into one fantasy mold seems to call you insistently. This is called a >'facile' answer. You just stick a label on, toss it back, and claim to be an expert.
I just gave you a detailed answer! I don’t accept easy answers either, except when I’m making a mistake, which obviously happens from time to time.
>There is no typical premie, just as there is no typical 'ex'. Please remember that.
Typical ex: people realizing they have been mentally abused.
I have no problem being called a typical ex.
Now exes reaction to this realization might be different (like premies reaction to practice of blind faith), but we all share something (like you said) in that respect. At least for those I met.
Some don’t even dare speaking of what happened to them, then it’s difficult to assess.
I assume they are ashamed of what happened to them, or they are still under the shock.
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Date: Sat, Jan 10, 1998 at 07:12:26 (EST)
Poster: Brian
Email:
To: Everyone
Subject: Thousand-year Lease
Message:
In a phone conversation with Katie last night, we were struck by the realization that MJ does in fact have a plan but, due to mis-pronunciation, we were all a bit mistaken as to its true nature.
MJ's apparent greed and devotion to material wealth is actually an attempt on his part to purchase the World. The advantage in this method is obvious to any non-thinking premie, and yet we missed it entirely!
What we thought was an attempt to establish A Thousand Years Of Peace, was actually stated as A Thousand-year Lease. Big difference!!
This site will be coming down now, of course. As soon as MJ sends us instructions as to where to send our donations all proceeds will be directed towards his worthwile mission.
We're waiting, oh LandLord Of The Universe!!...
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Date: Tues, Jan 13, 1998 at 12:17:22 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: Brian
Subject: Re: Thousand-year Lease
Message:
And guess who is gonna be expected to pay the RENT!
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