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Ex-Premie.Org |
Forum II Archive #
5 |
From:
Feb 4, 1998 |
To:
Feb 13, 1998 |
Page:
2
Of:
5 |
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Rick -:- Knowledge Selection -:- Wed, Feb 11, 1998 at 18:30:36 (EST)
___John Cavad -:- Re: Knowledge Selection -:- Wed, Feb 11, 1998 at 19:54:28 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: Knowledge Selection -:- Thurs, Feb 12, 1998 at 01:05:19 (EST)
Selena -:- Attaining balance -:- Wed, Feb 11, 1998 at 15:25:59 (EST)
Mr Ex -:- Malibu fairy tale -:- Wed, Feb 11, 1998 at 12:34:58 (EST)
___lg -:- Re: Malibu fairy tale -:- Wed, Feb 11, 1998 at 13:36:29 (EST)
___Selena -:- Re: Malibu fairy tale -:- Wed, Feb 11, 1998 at 15:33:26 (EST)
___lg -:- Re: Malibu fairy tale -:- Wed, Feb 11, 1998 at 16:29:27 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: Malibu fairy tale -:- Wed, Feb 11, 1998 at 16:53:12 (EST)
___VP -:- Re: Malibu fairy tale -:- Wed, Feb 11, 1998 at 18:49:00 (EST)
___CD -:- Re: Malibu fairy tale -:- Wed, Feb 11, 1998 at 22:54:37 (EST)
___Mr Ex -:- Re: Malibu fairy tale -:- Thurs, Feb 12, 1998 at 03:49:36 (EST)
John Cavad -:- Selena's thought on premies -:- Wed, Feb 11, 1998 at 12:14:56 (EST)
John Cavad -:- Ira Woods -:- Wed, Feb 11, 1998 at 12:04:47 (EST)
___Mr Ex -:- Re: Ira Woods -:- Wed, Feb 11, 1998 at 12:38:23 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: Ira Woods -:- Wed, Feb 11, 1998 at 16:48:45 (EST)
___CD -:- Re: Ira Woods -:- Wed, Feb 11, 1998 at 19:19:46 (EST)
___John Cavad -:- Re: Ira Woods -:- Wed, Feb 11, 1998 at 20:11:49 (EST)
___CD -:- Re: Ira Woods -:- Wed, Feb 11, 1998 at 23:16:47 (EST)
___A gossip -:- Re: Ira Woods -:- Thurs, Feb 12, 1998 at 00:11:29 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: Ira Woods -:- Thurs, Feb 12, 1998 at 00:19:35 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: Ira Woods -:- Thurs, Feb 12, 1998 at 01:06:22 (EST)
Scott T. -:- Dalai Lama and Good Charisma (Kundun) -:- Wed, Feb 11, 1998 at 09:29:29 (EST)
___Joy -:- Re: Dalai Lama and Good Charisma (Kundun) -:- Wed, Feb 11, 1998 at 12:11:15 (EST)
___Scott T. -:- Re: Dalai Lama and Good Charisma (Kundun) -:- Wed, Feb 11, 1998 at 13:59:52 (EST)
___Joy -:- Re: Dalai Lama and Good Charisma (Kundun) -:- Wed, Feb 11, 1998 at 19:44:36 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: Dalai Lama and Good Charisma (Kundun) -:- Thurs, Feb 12, 1998 at 13:07:59 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: Dalai Lama and Good Charisma (Kundun) -:- Thurs, Feb 12, 1998 at 13:15:40 (EST)
StephenB -:- Seeker -:- Wed, Feb 11, 1998 at 00:40:14 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: Seeker -:- Wed, Feb 11, 1998 at 10:45:04 (EST)
Joy -:- Recommended Reading -:- Wed, Feb 11, 1998 at 00:15:01 (EST)
___Scott T. -:- Re: Recommended Reading (David Lane) -:- Wed, Feb 11, 1998 at 11:00:38 (EST)
___John Cavad -:- Re: Recommended Reading -:- Wed, Feb 11, 1998 at 11:20:19 (EST)
___lg -:- Re: Recommended Reading -:- Wed, Feb 11, 1998 at 11:48:54 (EST)
___more titles -:- Re: Recommended Reading -:- Wed, Feb 11, 1998 at 13:11:15 (EST)
Scott T. -:- Homer Simpson as 'The Chosen One' -:- Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 21:34:57 (EST)
VP -:- Cult List -:- Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 19:30:48 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: Cult List -:- Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 19:43:56 (EST)
___VP -:- Re: Cult List -:- Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 20:02:23 (EST)
___VP -:- Re: gay laws -:- Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 20:07:55 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: Cult List -:- Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 20:29:36 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: gay laws -:- Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 20:33:15 (EST)
___bftb -:- Re: Cult List -:- Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 20:59:03 (EST)
___Selena RE: CAN and ELLE -:- Re: Cult List -:- Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 20:59:51 (EST)
___VP -:- Re: Cult List -:- Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 21:35:13 (EST)
___VP -:- EV list and Scientology -:- Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 21:48:46 (EST)
___Steve A -:- Re: EV list and Scientology -:- Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 22:17:04 (EST)
___Steve A -:- Re: EV list and Scientology -:- Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 22:19:14 (EST)
___VP -:- Re: EV list and Scientology -:- Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 22:31:16 (EST)
___Jw -:- Re: Cult List -:- Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 22:49:51 (EST)
___Mr Ex -:- Re: EV list and Scientology -:- Wed, Feb 11, 1998 at 05:55:36 (EST)
___John Cavad -:- Re: EV list and Scientology -:- Wed, Feb 11, 1998 at 11:35:25 (EST)
___JW: Gay Rights/ -:- Re: Gay Rights -:- Wed, Feb 11, 1998 at 17:31:41 (EST)
___VP -:- Re: Gay Rights -:- Wed, Feb 11, 1998 at 18:11:52 (EST)
___cult list -:- My personal -:- Wed, Feb 11, 1998 at 19:01:26 (EST)
Scott T. -:- Good Charisma -:- Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 16:53:19 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: Good Charisma -:- Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 18:12:01 (EST)
___Scott T. -:- Re: Good Charisma -:- Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 19:03:33 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: Good Charisma -:- Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 19:34:14 (EST)
___Scott T. -:- Re: Good Charisma -:- Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 19:57:02 (EST)
___Scott T. -:- Re: Good Charisma, Addendum -:- Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 20:12:03 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: Good Charisma -:- Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 20:40:17 (EST)
___Scott T. -:- Re: Good Charisma -:- Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 21:07:24 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: Good Charisma -:- Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 22:26:58 (EST)
___VP -:- Video God -:- Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 22:43:38 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: Video God -:- Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 22:57:49 (EST)
___Scott T. -:- Re: Good Charisma -:- Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 23:19:28 (EST)
___CD -:- Re: Video God -:- Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 23:29:34 (EST)
___Joy -:- Re: Good Charisma -:- Wed, Feb 11, 1998 at 00:29:42 (EST)
___Scott T. -:- Re: Good Charisma -:- Wed, Feb 11, 1998 at 09:14:40 (EST)
___John Cavad -:- Re: Good Charisma -:- Wed, Feb 11, 1998 at 11:44:39 (EST)
___John Cavad -:- Re: Less Sex After Satsang -:- Wed, Feb 11, 1998 at 11:52:44 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: Video God -:- Wed, Feb 11, 1998 at 11:58:51 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: Good Charisma -:- Wed, Feb 11, 1998 at 12:39:27 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: Good Charisma -:- Wed, Feb 11, 1998 at 12:49:16 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: Video God -:- Wed, Feb 11, 1998 at 13:10:55 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: Video God -:- Wed, Feb 11, 1998 at 14:00:55 (EST)
___VP -:- Re: Video God -:- Wed, Feb 11, 1998 at 18:30:30 (EST)
___VP -:- Re: Less Sex After Satsang -:- Wed, Feb 11, 1998 at 22:07:57 (EST)
___CD -:- Re: Video God -:- Wed, Feb 11, 1998 at 22:56:56 (EST)
___VP -:- Re: Video God -:- Wed, Feb 11, 1998 at 23:02:34 (EST)
___CD -:- Re: Video God -:- Wed, Feb 11, 1998 at 23:28:49 (EST)
___Mr Ex -:- Low profile -:- Thurs, Feb 12, 1998 at 05:52:22 (EST)
___Mr Ex -:- Lame charlatan=Low profile -:- Thurs, Feb 12, 1998 at 09:28:37 (EST)
___VP -:- Re: Low profile -:- Thurs, Feb 12, 1998 at 11:52:18 (EST)
___John Cavad -:- Re: Less Sex After Satsang -:- Thurs, Feb 12, 1998 at 18:35:00 (EST)
___VP -:- Re: Less Sex After Satsang -:- Thurs, Feb 12, 1998 at 22:38:46 (EST)
Scott T. -:- Badnesh bus -:- Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 16:02:26 (EST)
___Scott T. -:- Sorry. I goofed. -:- Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 16:41:35 (EST)
John Cavad -:- PAM -:- Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 11:56:24 (EST)
___Mr Ex -:- Re: PAM -:- Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 12:20:29 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: PAM -:- Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 14:10:25 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: PAM -:- Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 22:40:37 (EST)
___John Cavad -:- Re: PAM -:- Wed, Feb 11, 1998 at 11:08:01 (EST)
John K. -:- Question -:- Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 10:44:41 (EST)
___-Scott T. -:- Re: Question -:- Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 11:15:50 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: Question -:- Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 11:21:00 (EST)
___Selena -:- Re: Question -:- Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 12:25:52 (EST)
___John K. -:- Re: Question -:- Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 12:30:08 (EST)
___Selena -:- Re: Question -:- Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 13:01:46 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: Question -:- Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 13:17:07 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: Question -:- Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 13:23:52 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: Question -:- Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 14:36:43 (EST)
___John K. -:- Re: Question -:- Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 16:22:57 (EST)
___Scott T. -:- Re: Question -:- Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 16:36:37 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: Question -:- Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 16:57:13 (EST)
___Brian -:- Re: Question -:- Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 22:34:36 (EST)
___Mr Ex -:- Re: Question -:- Wed, Feb 11, 1998 at 06:18:22 (EST)
___Katie -:- Guilt about Maharaji -:- Wed, Feb 11, 1998 at 12:10:35 (EST)
___A premie -:- Re: Guilt about Maharaji -:- Wed, Feb 11, 1998 at 23:44:33 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: Guilt about Maharaji -:- Thurs, Feb 12, 1998 at 00:12:57 (EST)
ex-mug -:- Rugu -:- Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 04:35:24 (EST)
___Scott -:- Re: Rugu -:- Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 09:34:38 (EST)
___ex-mug -:- Re: Rugu -:- Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 10:41:05 (EST)
___Scott -:- Re: Rugu -:- Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 11:03:43 (EST)
___lg -:- Re: Rugu -:- Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 13:20:11 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: Rugu -:- Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 13:32:49 (EST)
___lg -:- Re: Rugu -:- Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 14:14:26 (EST)
___ex-mug -:- Re: Rugu -:- Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 14:19:09 (EST)
___lg -:- Re: Rugu -:- Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 14:44:39 (EST)
___ex-mug -:- Re: Rugu -:- Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 15:09:06 (EST)
___lg -:- Re: Rugu -:- Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 16:14:08 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: Rugu -:- Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 17:35:51 (EST)
Steve A -:- Who are the real Premies -:- Mon, Feb 9, 1998 at 23:13:40 (EST)
___Diver Dan -:- Re: Who are the real Premies -:- Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 01:07:12 (EST)
___Steve A -:- Re: Who are the real Premies -:- Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 02:26:29 (EST)
___ex-mug -:- Re: Who are the real Premies -:- Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 14:49:59 (EST)
___A premie -:- Re: Who are the real Premies -:- Wed, Feb 11, 1998 at 23:56:57 (EST)
Sir David -:- A Father & His children -:- Mon, Feb 9, 1998 at 20:48:24 (EST)
Selena -:- Homer Simpson and Realization -:- Mon, Feb 9, 1998 at 19:31:22 (EST)
___Scott Talkington -:- Re: Homer Simpson and Realization -:- Mon, Feb 9, 1998 at 22:40:26 (EST)
___Mickey the Pharisee -:- Re: Homer Simpson and Realization -:- Mon, Feb 9, 1998 at 23:12:17 (EST)
___Selena -:- Re: Homer Simpson and Realization -:- Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 13:33:11 (EST)
___Marge and -:- Homer Simpson and Realization -:- Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 17:02:47 (EST)
___Selena -:- Re: Homer Simpson and Realization -:- Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 17:19:45 (EST)
JW -:- Devotion Quotes -:- Mon, Feb 9, 1998 at 17:46:23 (EST)
___Selena -:- Re: Devotion Quotes vs. Brain Farts -:- Mon, Feb 9, 1998 at 18:35:01 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: Devotion Quotes vs. Brain Farts -:- Mon, Feb 9, 1998 at 19:29:05 (EST)
___John K. -:- Re: Devotion Quotes -:- Mon, Feb 9, 1998 at 22:04:03 (EST)
___de -:- ca -:- Mon, Feb 9, 1998 at 22:28:32 (EST)
___Jw -:- Re: Devotion Quotes -:- Mon, Feb 9, 1998 at 23:41:51 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: Devotion Quotes -:- Mon, Feb 9, 1998 at 23:53:36 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: Devotion Quotes vs. Brain Farts -:- Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 05:19:17 (EST)
___Mr Ex -:- Re: Devotion Quotes vs. Brain Farts -:- Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 06:14:17 (EST)
___Brian -:- Re: Devotion Quotes -:- Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 07:13:38 (EST)
___Mr Ex -:- Recent quotes? -:- Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 09:33:40 (EST)
___Selena -:- Re: Devotion Quotes vs. Brain Farts -:- Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 10:38:59 (EST)
___VP -:- Re: Devotion Quotes -:- Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 15:38:56 (EST)
___John Cavad -:- Re: Devotion Quotes -:- Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 16:18:33 (EST)
___Mickey the Pharisee -:- Re: Recent quotes? -:- Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 23:00:22 (EST)
___Brian -:- Re: Recent quotes? -:- Wed, Feb 11, 1998 at 22:09:16 (EST)
Date: Wed, Feb 11, 1998 at 18:30:36 (EST)
Poster: Rick
Email: rtaraday@hotmail.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Knowledge Selection
Message:
The thread about Ira Woods jogged my memory of begging him to reveal knowledge to me in 1976. As stupid as it sounds, I would have done anything to receive it; it meant more than anything to me. I went to satsang every night, and did all the service I could. I couldn't possibly have been more devoted. I remember a young woman in the same room, who was only marginally interested, who was accepted by Ira. I was infuriated and "stayed after class" to beg him some more, but to no avail. I didn't pass muster and I was humiliated. Eventually, Stuart MacDougall did the dirty work. So the $64,000 question is... How did they really determine if someone was ready for knowledge? We were led to believe they had some sort of hotline to maharaji or the cosmos, that allowed them to peer inside someone's heart and know how guileless they were. Were they really just playing favorites? Although my exposure to him was limited, I found Ira Woods just as insidious as David Smith.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Wed, Feb 11, 1998 at 19:54:28 (EST)
Poster: John Cavad
Email: johncavad@yahoo.com
To: Rick
Subject: Re: Knowledge Selection
Message:
Rick, I also begged for knowledge in the Summer of 1976, NYC, and was turned down. The criteria to receive knowledge was part of Ira's psychosis. He believed anything he impulsively did or said was the will of God (aka GMJ). (Mr. Ex, did you ever think like that at times?) I wrote a paragraph about it in my Jouneys entry. I thought Ira was a total arrogant ass back then. He was only one of about seven or so initiators back then. Most were cut prior to then and they (GMJ) were starting to initiate new initiators into DLM. Perhaps Ira thought he was the "special one" to have survived the massive cut? Years later he admitted he was "in his mind" regarding those days. I guess GMJ humbled him?
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Date: Thurs, Feb 12, 1998 at 01:05:19 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: John Cavad
Subject: Re: Knowledge Selection
Message:
Rick, I also begged for knowledge in the Summer of 1976, NYC, and was turned down. The criteria to receive knowledge was part of Ira's psychosis. He believed anything he impulsively did or said was the will of God (aka GMJ). (Mr. Ex, did you ever think like that at times?) I wrote a paragraph about it in my Jouneys entry. I thought Ira was a total arrogant ass back then. He was only one of about seven or so initiators back then. Most were cut prior to then and they (GMJ) were starting to initiate new initiators into DLM. Perhaps Ira thought he was the 'special one' to have survived the massive cut? Years later he admitted he was 'in his mind' regarding those days. I guess GMJ humbled him?
So I guess David Smith wasn't the only one who believed that whatever stupid or maniacal thought that came into his head was god talking.
Ira gave new meaning to the word "intense." He was truly a maniac. I recall in the late 70s he got into going to parks and screaming satsang, which M apparently approved of, until he didn't anymore and then Ira had to stop.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Wed, Feb 11, 1998 at 15:25:59 (EST)
Poster: Selena
Email:
To: Everyone
Subject: Attaining balance
Message:
Brian, forgive me if I didn't wait long enough but I think I posted while you were testing and it went into cyberspace. At least i hope that's where it is and not someplace I wouldn't want it. If not, I'll live. I've been embarrassed before.
So, I'll try again.
I have noticed intermittant postings by premies here at this site, and more often than not the theme is an accusation that we are negative. This is understandable of course, but simplistic to say the least. I find this site to be extremely positive, any veteran of Usenet would agree I am sure. I have found the comments to my postings to be very intelligent and insightful. I see a lot of honest open communication from people who are tryiing to recover or have recovered from something they found to be destructive. Thanks again everyone.
I have been exploring career development and have been taking those personality tests. The results keep surprising me. I am categorized as an extrovert who prefers thinking to feeling, and sensing to intuition. Of course these things are not totally accurate and reflect a person's environment, etc. Still it is helping me see why I don't fit the premie mold well at all.
The tests explain that the goal for anyone, no matter what their type, is to seek balance. It got me thinking about the positives of my experiences with M and premies.
Early on, there was a lot of love.
I like the meditation, though I don't see it as the only way to feel love or a connection with the spiritual world, and more importantly, i don't see it as better than some other ways. Actually I feel that energy more after running a few miles. At one time not so long ago I would have judged the running to be not as cosmic or spiritual or something, and it's a relief not to have that value judgement anymore.
As to my thoughts on the premies; take it all with a grain of salt. I am bitter and have been hurt rather badly. We all have our faults. Their changes can be explained in other ways in addition to M's influence - getting older, having more responsibilities, the cultural atmosphere of the 90's vs. the 70's. It's hard to let go of a dream.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Wed, Feb 11, 1998 at 12:34:58 (EST)
Poster: Mr Ex
Email:
To: Everyone
Subject: Malibu fairy tale
Message:
Some Malibu premies told me an interesting story.
Land was for sale some years ago, around BigM’s palace.
As the Ex-Lord didn’t want to have some new neighbors
close to him, he decided to buy that piece of land.
But there was a problem : his neighbors on the hill don’t like
him very much, and didn’t want to let him buy it.
What he then decided is to have PAM making a company
and buy this land.
So did they.
Lot of Grace and Bliss, and Maharaji lives happily on his
quiet hill.
Who gave them the money?
What is the name of that company? Who is in it (beside Alvarro Pascotto?)
Do anybody have details about this fairy tale?
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Date: Wed, Feb 11, 1998 at 13:36:29 (EST)
Poster: lg
Email:
To: Mr Ex
Subject: Re: Malibu fairy tale
Message:
Some Malibu premies told me an interesting story.
Land was for sale some years ago, around BigM’s palace.
As the Ex-Lord didn’t want to have some new neighbors
close to him, he decided to buy that piece of land.
But there was a problem : his neighbors on the hill don’t like
him very much, and didn’t want to let him buy it.
What he then decided is to have PAM making a company
and buy this land.
So did they.
Lot of Grace and Bliss, and Maharaji lives happily on his
quiet hill.
Who gave them the money?
What is the name of that company? Who is in it (beside Alvarro Pascotto?)
Do anybody have details about this fairy tale?
Yes. It's around 1986. I remember money was being collected as donation for M. for that purpose. It seemed the first time M was asking money for himself, as we were being told. We were contributing monthly for his plane too! That's the period when my enchantment took the back door. I don't think I was around anymore at that time to find out the outcome of that event.
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Date: Wed, Feb 11, 1998 at 15:33:26 (EST)
Poster: Selena
Email:
To: lg
Subject: Re: Malibu fairy tale
Message:
Some Malibu premies told me an interesting story.
Land was for sale some years ago, around BigM’s palace.
As the Ex-Lord didn’t want to have some new neighbors
close to him, he decided to buy that piece of land.
But there was a problem : his neighbors on the hill don’t like
him very much, and didn’t want to let him buy it.
What he then decided is to have PAM making a company
and buy this land.
So did they.
Lot of Grace and Bliss, and Maharaji lives happily on his
quiet hill.
Who gave them the money?
What is the name of that company? Who is in it (beside Alvarro Pascotto?)
Do anybody have details about this fairy tale?
Yes. It's around 1986. I remember money was being collected as donation for M. for that purpose. It seemed the first time M was asking money for himself, as we were being told. We were contributing monthly for his plane too! That's the period when my enchantment took the back door. I don't think I was around anymore at that time to find out the outcome of that event.
Was that when and where the new house started being built? I was in Malibu in 95 and it surprised me to see this whole new, much bigger house. Did the money for the house come from the same sources?
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Date: Wed, Feb 11, 1998 at 16:29:27 (EST)
Poster: lg
Email:
To: Selena
Subject: Re: Malibu fairy tale
Message:
Some Malibu premies told me an interesting story.
Land was for sale some years ago, around BigM’s palace.
As the Ex-Lord didn’t want to have some new neighbors
close to him, he decided to buy that piece of land.
But there was a problem : his neighbors on the hill don’t like
him very much, and didn’t want to let him buy it.
What he then decided is to have PAM making a company
and buy this land.
So did they.
Lot of Grace and Bliss, and Maharaji lives happily on his
quiet hill.
Who gave them the money?
What is the name of that company? Who is in it (beside Alvarro Pascotto?)
Do anybody have details about this fairy tale?
Yes. It's around 1986. I remember money was being collected as donation for M. for that purpose. It seemed the first time M was asking money for himself, as we were being told. We were contributing monthly for his plane too! That's the period when my enchantment took the back door. I don't think I was around anymore at that time to find out the outcome of that event.
Was that when and where the new house started being built? I was in Malibu in 95 and it surprised me to see this whole new, much bigger house. Did the money for the house come from the same sources?
No Selena I can't recall M wanting a house being built in the 80's. Only the land was in the picture at that time. (unless the house came after I left the group).
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Date: Wed, Feb 11, 1998 at 16:53:12 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: lg
Subject: Re: Malibu fairy tale
Message:
Some Malibu premies told me an interesting story.
Land was for sale some years ago, around BigM’s palace.
As the Ex-Lord didn’t want to have some new neighbors
close to him, he decided to buy that piece of land.
But there was a problem : his neighbors on the hill don’t like
him very much, and didn’t want to let him buy it.
What he then decided is to have PAM making a company
and buy this land.
So did they.
Lot of Grace and Bliss, and Maharaji lives happily on his
quiet hill.
Who gave them the money?
What is the name of that company? Who is in it (beside Alvarro Pascotto?)
Do anybody have details about this fairy tale?
Yes. It's around 1986. I remember money was being collected as donation for M. for that purpose. It seemed the first time M was asking money for himself, as we were being told. We were contributing monthly for his plane too! That's the period when my enchantment took the back door. I don't think I was around anymore at that time to find out the outcome of that event.
Was that when and where the new house started being built? I was in Malibu in 95 and it surprised me to see this whole new, much bigger house. Did the money for the house come from the same sources?
No Selena I can't recall M wanting a house being built in the 80's. Only the land was in the picture at that time. (unless the house came after I left the group).
Actually, we raised tons of money from premies to buy the residence in Malibu in the first place in the 70s. Then, in the later 70s there was another big fundraising to get the money to buy land AROUND the residence, that I think may have cost even more than the residence itself. Apparently, he wanted even more land, to keep those annoying human beings away from him, later on.
BTW -- do people recall when M wanted a heliport at the residence around 1981 and there was a big political bruhaha in Malibu, because his neighbors opposed it? [I would be happy to tell that story again, if anyone wants to hear it.] Apparently, it was just too too burdensome for the poor perfect master to sit on his fat ass in a luxury car to LAX before taking off in his private luxury jet. He had to have a helicopter. Actually, I don't know if he ever got the heliport. Does anyone know?
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Date: Wed, Feb 11, 1998 at 18:49:00 (EST)
Poster: VP
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: Malibu fairy tale
Message:
Some Malibu premies told me an interesting story.
Land was for sale some years ago, around BigM’s palace.
As the Ex-Lord didn’t want to have some new neighbors
close to him, he decided to buy that piece of land.
But there was a problem : his neighbors on the hill don’t like
him very much, and didn’t want to let him buy it.
What he then decided is to have PAM making a company
and buy this land.
So did they.
Lot of Grace and Bliss, and Maharaji lives happily on his
quiet hill.
Who gave them the money?
What is the name of that company? Who is in it (beside Alvarro Pascotto?)
Do anybody have details about this fairy tale?
Yes. It's around 1986. I remember money was being collected as donation for M. for that purpose. It seemed the first time M was asking money for himself, as we were being told. We were contributing monthly for his plane too! That's the period when my enchantment took the back door. I don't think I was around anymore at that time to find out the outcome of that event.
Was that when and where the new house started being built? I was in Malibu in 95 and it surprised me to see this whole new, much bigger house. Did the money for the house come from the same sources?
No Selena I can't recall M wanting a house being built in the 80's. Only the land was in the picture at that time. (unless the house came after I left the group).
Actually, we raised tons of money from premies to buy the residence in Malibu in the first place in the 70s. Then, in the later 70s there was another big fundraising to get the money to buy land AROUND the residence, that I think may have cost even more than the residence itself. Apparently, he wanted even more land, to keep those annoying human beings away from him, later on.
BTW -- do people recall when M wanted a heliport at the residence around 1981 and there was a big political bruhaha in Malibu, because his neighbors opposed it? [I would be happy to tell that story again, if anyone wants to hear it.] Apparently, it was just too too burdensome for the poor perfect master to sit on his fat ass in a luxury car to LAX before taking off in his private luxury jet. He had to have a helicopter. Actually, I don't know if he ever got the heliport. Does anyone know?
JW, Sure, tell us again. I need a good laugh tonight! Thanks, VP
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Date: Wed, Feb 11, 1998 at 22:54:37 (EST)
Poster: CD
Email:
To: Mr Ex
Subject: Re: Malibu fairy tale
Message:
>But there was a problem : his neighbors on the hill don’t like him very much
O.K.
Why don't they like him?
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Date: Thurs, Feb 12, 1998 at 03:49:36 (EST)
Poster: Mr Ex
Email:
To: CD
Subject: Re: Malibu fairy tale
Message:
>But there was a problem : his neighbors on the hill don’t like him very much
O.K.
Why don't they like him?
Why don't you ask them?
They even went to court against his helicopter frenzy
made petitions etc
Could be:
dangerous crazy guru
too many parties (and not being invited)
to many bongos running around up and down the hill
thefts in the neigborhood
people sleeping in cars and vans everywhere
dangerous bodyguards
weapons?
Make some investigations
get copies of the petitions
could be very enlightening
...
etc
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Date: Wed, Feb 11, 1998 at 12:14:56 (EST)
Poster: John Cavad
Email: johncavad@yahoo.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Selena's thought on premies
Message:
Here's Selena's quote: 'Maybe it's because I hang around so long. What I see happening more and more is the sense of community is gone or going away...."
Selena, what you have seen is very cyclical in cults. It happened in 1975 when GMJ married an American girl and broke his family up; it happened in the early 80's at the time ashrams were about to be closed; it happens frequently and it's quite normal under the circumstances. The life cycle of an average premie is not long, maybe three to five years. (Don't look at premies around 25 years. They're the exception.) They eventually come down to reality and have problems relating to each other; so they may only concentrate on GMJ at those times casting most premies aside, or they may just drop out of the whole scene perhaps still holding on to some part of Knowledge or GMJ (out of fear of leaving or letting go altogether). In short, premies get disociated with themselves as a result of living a lie.
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Date: Wed, Feb 11, 1998 at 12:04:47 (EST)
Poster: John Cavad
Email: johncavad@yahoo.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Ira Woods
Message:
Anyone know whatever happened with Ira Woods (surviving initiator from the early 70's into the early 80's)? I heard he had once moved to Santa Barbara (long ago?). Has he woken up yet from the dream or is he he still a devotee of the incarnation of God?
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Date: Wed, Feb 11, 1998 at 12:38:23 (EST)
Poster: Mr Ex
Email:
To: John Cavad
Subject: Re: Ira Woods
Message:
he even got married, divorced .....
still involved in EV
usual typical story in the 90s
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Date: Wed, Feb 11, 1998 at 16:48:45 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: Mr Ex
Subject: Re: Ira Woods
Message:
he even got married, divorced .....
still involved in EV
usual typical story in the 90s
I know this is gossip, but who did he marry, by the way? Was it someone I might have known? Can't imagine begin married to someone as intense as Ira for very long. Sorry to hear he is still involved with M. Masochism sometimes runs deep.
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Date: Wed, Feb 11, 1998 at 19:19:46 (EST)
Poster: CD
Email:
To: John Cavad
Subject: Re: Ira Woods
Message:
He was in San Diego a few months back giving a talk.
CD
San Diego
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Date: Wed, Feb 11, 1998 at 20:11:49 (EST)
Poster: John Cavad
Email:
To: CD
Subject: Re: Ira Woods
Message:
He was in San Diego a few months back giving a talk.
CD
San Diego
San Diego? If I was a living premie, I would have been right there at Lindberg field giving him personal taxi service.
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Date: Wed, Feb 11, 1998 at 23:16:47 (EST)
Poster: CD
Email:
To: John Cavad
Subject: Re: Ira Woods
Message:
>San Diego? If I was a living premie, I would have been right there at Lindberg field giving him personal taxi service.
Yeah, San Diego. I was there.
Also saw M the 5 times he came here.
O.K. Cavad
So you are not living but hiding out in San Diego.
What part?
Driving a taxi?
I used to be a big Coast Cab customer.
Now I stay close to the beach and walk.
CD
Pacific Beach - San Diego, CA
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Date: Thurs, Feb 12, 1998 at 00:11:29 (EST)
Poster: A gossip
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: Ira Woods
Message:
he even got married, divorced .....
still involved in EV
usual typical story in the 90s
I know this is gossip, but who did he marry, by the way? Was it someone I might have known? Can't imagine begin married to someone as intense as Ira for very long. Sorry to hear he is still involved with M. Masochism sometimes runs deep.
And I hear he's a cross-dresser. Oh JW, you guys are so into this stuff. BTW I notice that gossip has become the main currency on this forum. Good gracious don't we get enough television!?
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Date: Thurs, Feb 12, 1998 at 00:19:35 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email:
To: A gossip
Subject: Re: Ira Woods
Message:
And I hear he's a cross-dresser. Oh JW, you guys are so into this stuff. BTW I notice that gossip has become the main currency on this forum. Good gracious don't we get enough television!?
My friend's husband is a social anthropologist and he says that gossip is important in the spread of information in societies. So gossip is not necessarily bad (unless it's malicious gossip, or lying gossip, I suppose). Maybe JW just wants to find out what happened to the guy. I know I'd be interested if I had known him personally - wouldn't you?
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Date: Thurs, Feb 12, 1998 at 01:06:22 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: A gossip
Subject: Re: Ira Woods
Message:
he even got married, divorced .....
still involved in EV
usual typical story in the 90s
I know this is gossip, but who did he marry, by the way? Was it someone I might have known? Can't imagine begin married to someone as intense as Ira for very long. Sorry to hear he is still involved with M. Masochism sometimes runs deep.
And I hear he's a cross-dresser. Oh JW, you guys are so into this stuff. BTW I notice that gossip has become the main currency on this forum. Good gracious don't we get enough television!?
Hey, lighten up, will ya? Geezzzz.
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Date: Wed, Feb 11, 1998 at 09:29:29 (EST)
Poster: Scott T.
Email: stalking@gmu.edu
To: Everyone
Subject: Dalai Lama and Good Charisma (Kundun)
Message:
Hi:
I'm just trying to bring this "good charisma" thread back to the top, and was also interested in whether people had seen the movie Kundun. I haven't seen it yet, myself. There's an enclave of the Tibetan sect (sect is not the same as cult, another story) in northern California.
I had a Chinese roommate for awhile, and his take on the Tibetan hierarchy was very different. He saw them as fundamentally political, and very savvy. He pointed out that the image of the Tibetans as a put-upon small enclave of enlightened people was a propaganda ploy. Claimed that at one time Tibet had ruled China, or most of it, and that it is still a powerful group of Chinese, like the Mongolians. Personally, I think his rendition is propaganda, but interesting.
-Scott
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Date: Wed, Feb 11, 1998 at 12:11:15 (EST)
Poster: Joy
Email: Bluebirdd@aol.com
To: Scott T.
Subject: Re: Dalai Lama and Good Charisma (Kundun)
Message:
Hi:
I'm just trying to bring this 'good charisma' thread back to the top, and was also interested in whether people had seen the movie Kundun. I haven't seen it yet, myself. There's an enclave of the Tibetan sect (sect is not the same as cult, another story) in northern California.
I had a Chinese roommate for awhile, and his take on the Tibetan hierarchy was very different. He saw them as fundamentally political, and very savvy. He pointed out that the image of the Tibetans as a put-upon small enclave of enlightened people was a propaganda ploy. Claimed that at one time Tibet had ruled China, or most of it, and that it is still a powerful group of Chinese, like the Mongolians. Personally, I think his rendition is propaganda, but interesting.
-Scott
I've seen Kundun, and it's absolutely gorgeous. Visually, it is just spectacular, and is very moving. Highly recommended.
Scott, your Chinese roommate's views are shocking. The Tibetans are anything but savvy political maneuverers. The Chinese propaganda machine is working overtime to portray the Tibetans (what's left of them) in a negative light, and also to stop films like Kundun, Seven Years In Tibet and The Red Door being made (I think Red Door is the right name for it, it's the new film starring Richard Gere). These three were all made around the same time before the Chinese government realized what was happening; they have now exerted sufficient pressure on Hollywood that no more movies are going to be made focusing on Tibet.
The Chinese have imposed upon Tibet a genocide. Over one million people have been destroyed due to famine. People, including monks and nuns, imprisoned and tortured. All but a handful of the 6,000 monasteries completely destroyed and looted. Their natural environment has been plundered, forests clear-cut and strip-mined, and it is being used as a nuclear waste dump. But the most insidious of all, according to the Dalai Lama, has been the Chinese ploy of population transfer to obliterate the Tibetans as a race and a culture. Millions of native Chinese are being offered financial incentives to move to Tibet, and Lhasa now looks almost like any other Chinese city, and the Tibetans are now a minority in their own country. And all these "politically savvy maneuverers" have done is to nonviolently and peacefully try and call the world's attention to what has happened.
I urge anyone interested to go and see Kundun (or Seven Years in Tibet) to get a small idea of the scale of what has happened there. My only complaint about Kundun was that it was too light on the Chinese government, barely hinting about the famine, and showing little of the scale of the destruction and oppression. There are many, many web sites and accurate sources of information about Tibet on the www. Please do searches to find info from the Tibetan Rights Campaign, etc. if anyone is interested in the TRUE facts.
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Date: Wed, Feb 11, 1998 at 13:59:52 (EST)
Poster: Scott T.
Email: stalking@freewheeling.com
To: Joy
Subject: Re: Dalai Lama and Good Charisma (Kundun)
Message:
Hi:
I'm just trying to bring this 'good charisma' thread back to the top, and was also interested in whether people had seen the movie Kundun. I haven't seen it yet, myself. There's an enclave of the Tibetan sect (sect is not the same as cult, another story) in northern California.
I had a Chinese roommate for awhile, and his take on the Tibetan hierarchy was very different. He saw them as fundamentally political, and very savvy. He pointed out that the image of the Tibetans as a put-upon small enclave of enlightened people was a propaganda ploy. Claimed that at one time Tibet had ruled China, or most of it, and that it is still a powerful group of Chinese, like the Mongolians. Personally, I think his rendition is propaganda, but interesting.
-Scott
I've seen Kundun, and it's absolutely gorgeous. Visually, it is just spectacular, and is very moving. Highly recommended.
Scott, your Chinese roommate's views are shocking. The Tibetans are anything but savvy political maneuverers. The Chinese propaganda machine is working overtime to portray the Tibetans (what's left of them) in a negative light, and also to stop films like Kundun, Seven Years In Tibet and The Red Door being made (I think Red Door is the right name for it, it's the new film starring Richard Gere). These three were all made around the same time before the Chinese government realized what was happening; they have now exerted sufficient pressure on Hollywood that no more movies are going to be made focusing on Tibet.
The Chinese have imposed upon Tibet a genocide. Over one million people have been destroyed due to famine. People, including monks and nuns, imprisoned and tortured. All but a handful of the 6,000 monasteries completely destroyed and looted. Their natural environment has been plundered, forests clear-cut and strip-mined, and it is being used as a nuclear waste dump. But the most insidious of all, according to the Dalai Lama, has been the Chinese ploy of population transfer to obliterate the Tibetans as a race and a culture. Millions of native Chinese are being offered financial incentives to move to Tibet, and Lhasa now looks almost like any other Chinese city, and the Tibetans are now a minority in their own country. And all these 'politically savvy maneuverers' have done is to nonviolently and peacefully try and call the world's attention to what has happened.
I urge anyone interested to go and see Kundun (or Seven Years in Tibet) to get a small idea of the scale of what has happened there. My only complaint about Kundun was that it was too light on the Chinese government, barely hinting about the famine, and showing little of the scale of the destruction and oppression. There are many, many web sites and accurate sources of information about Tibet on the www. Please do searches to find info from the Tibetan Rights Campaign, etc. if anyone is interested in the TRUE facts.
Joy:
I figured Lee's perspective was more than a little wierd. When I lived in Ashland, OR we used to go to the Colestine [sp?] valley where the Tibetans had a monastery and temple. They used to have Tibetan Dance festivals there from time to time. The attitudes of the Chinese regarding Tibet as well as Taiwan are very dangerous. They brook no deviation from there position, and are used to getting their way. Don't know how it will turn out, but I don't believe the US will back down much on Taiwan, so that could become a real problem. We'll see.
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Date: Wed, Feb 11, 1998 at 19:44:36 (EST)
Poster: Joy
Email:
To: Scott T.
Subject: Re: Dalai Lama and Good Charisma (Kundun)
Message:
Yes, it's interesting to watch how the U.S. will handle this one, and what it will do if they actually try and take over Taiwan the same way they did Tibet in the 1950s. They seem to have the exact same views on Taiwan as they do on Tibet -- that it' an ancient part of China and needs to be returned to the "motherland" (sound like Nazi Germany?). But the U.S. is too tied into Taiwan economically to let it go, unlike Tibet. People have commented that Tibet's main export was spirituality (and at the time it was invaded, it wasn't an export, they were very isolated and happy that way). Therefore it wasn't important enough for major world powers to step in. Had Tibet been an oil producing country it would've been a different kettle of fish.
Kundun made me feel even more love and respect for the Dalai Lama and Tibetan people than I already do. They used a lot of real Tibetans as actors so it seems very authentic. It's the kind of film you think about for days afterwards, the images are so haunting.
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Date: Thurs, Feb 12, 1998 at 13:07:59 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: Joy
Subject: Re: Dalai Lama and Good Charisma (Kundun)
Message:
Yes, it's interesting to watch how the U.S. will handle this one, and what it will do if they actually try and take over Taiwan the same way they did Tibet in the 1950s. They seem to have the exact same views on Taiwan as they do on Tibet -- that it' an ancient part of China and needs to be returned to the 'motherland' (sound like Nazi Germany?). But the U.S. is too tied into Taiwan economically to let it go, unlike Tibet. People have commented that Tibet's main export was spirituality (and at the time it was invaded, it wasn't an export, they were very isolated and happy that way). Therefore it wasn't important enough for major world powers to step in. Had Tibet been an oil producing country it would've been a different kettle of fish.
Kundun made me feel even more love and respect for the Dalai Lama and Tibetan people than I already do. They used a lot of real Tibetans as actors so it seems very authentic. It's the kind of film you think about for days afterwards, the images are so haunting.
I wouldn't be so sure about Taiwan. The U.S. is much more economically involved in China that in Taiwan, and given how corporations run this country, the U.S. would abandon Taiwan in a second if it's continued relationship threatened the lucrative Chinese market. And Tibet isn't even on the charts. BTW- The U.S. adopted the "one China" policy almost 20 years ago. If things go okay with the Hong Kong/China relationship, I think Taiwan will eventually follow, with encouragement (read, threats) from the U.S. if it sees it as an economic advantage.
BTW -- with the economic turmoil in Asia, just watch as U.S., European, and to some extent, Japanese corporations and banks (with the help of the "big stick" of the IMF) go in and buy up what's left of those economies at bargain basement prices. Because it basically controls the IMF, the U.S. has become truly an economic predator nation (really, international corporations which don't have to answer to anyone), as well as being a military one. [Excuse me, this is the editorial opinion of the day.]
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Date: Thurs, Feb 12, 1998 at 13:15:40 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: Dalai Lama and Good Charisma (Kundun)
Message:
And by the way, the IMF will see that international banks, Goldman, Sachs and the like will not lose a penny in Asia, despite irresponsible investments, paid for out of the hides of ordinary working people in places like Indonesia and Thailand, who will work even hard for fewer, inflation-ravaged, currencies. It should be quite a boon for Nike, Chevron and the U.S. arms exporters, who will sell more arms to these countries to keep their populations in check.
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Date: Wed, Feb 11, 1998 at 00:40:14 (EST)
Poster: StephenB
Email:
To: Everyone
Subject: Seeker
Message:
Hi I am seeking the webmasater for this site...I am really amazed that it is not available as a link...I think his name is Brian.
Thanks in advance
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Date: Wed, Feb 11, 1998 at 10:45:04 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: StephenB
Subject: Re: Seeker
Message:
Hi I am seeking the webmasater for this site...I am really amazed that it is not available as a link...I think his name is Brian.
Thanks in advance
His email address is brian@ex-premie.org (I think). Tell me if this doesn't work.
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Date: Wed, Feb 11, 1998 at 00:15:01 (EST)
Poster: Joy
Email: Bluebirdd@aol.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Recommended Reading
Message:
I'm putting together a list of books for the "Breaking Free" section that are relevant to people who are wanting to leave MJ, or who have left in the past, whether two weeks or twenty years ago. We have already talked about The Guru Papers by Kramer and Alstad here on the site, but does anyone know of any other books which would be appropriate?
I have heard of a book called Cults: Faith, Healing & Coercion by Marc Galanter, but have not read it. Has anyone out there read it and can recommend it?
There's also a book called Snapping which is pretty good, and deals with people "snapping" themselves out of cult-like thinking and behavior.
Any other suggestion?
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Date: Wed, Feb 11, 1998 at 11:00:38 (EST)
Poster: Scott T.
Email:
To: Joy
Subject: Re: Recommended Reading (David Lane) (Re: Recommended Reading)
Message:
Joy:
How about David Lane's book on the evolution of "Shabd Yoga." I can't recall the title, but he has several chapters, or perhaps the whole book, on his website at:
http://weber.ucsd.edu/~dlane/
He also has a number of very good contributions that are quite scathingly critical of various movements and personalities, including that guy who was on PBS (can't recall his name). Lane's research demonstrates pretty conclusively that Maharaji does not have exclusive propietorship of either Knowledge, or it's techniques. In fact Maharaji is a relatively minor player.
-Scott
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Date: Wed, Feb 11, 1998 at 11:20:19 (EST)
Poster: John Cavad
Email:
To: Joy
Subject: Re: Recommended Reading
Message:
Cults: Faith, Healing & Coercion
Reprint Edition; Paperback; Published by Oxford Univ Pr (Trade); Publication date: October 1, 1990
ISBN: 0195066588
I have read about 20 pages of this book in the book store. It's an excellent book to recommend. It's a non-judgemental approach is powerful way to approach the subject, but quite different in context from The Guru Papers. It addresses DLM as well as other cults. There's some fascinating factual information in this book about premies.
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Date: Wed, Feb 11, 1998 at 11:48:54 (EST)
Poster: lg
Email:
To: Joy
Subject: Re: Recommended Reading
Message:
I'm putting together a list of books for the 'Breaking Free' section that are relevant to people who are wanting to leave MJ, or who have left in the past, whether two weeks or twenty years ago. We have already talked about The Guru Papers by Kramer and Alstad here on the site, but does anyone know of any other books which would be appropriate?
I have heard of a book called Cults: Faith, Healing & Coercion by Marc Galanter, but have not read it. Has anyone out there read it and can recommend it?
There's also a book called Snapping which is pretty good, and deals with people 'snapping' themselves out of cult-like thinking and behavior.
Any other suggestion?
I have found these titles:
Singer, Margaret Thaler
Cults in our midst / Margaret Thaler Singer with Janja Lalich ; foreword by Robert Jay Lifton
1st ed. San Francisco: Jossey-Bass Publishers, c1995. 381 p.
ISBN: 0787900516 (acid-free paper)
ISBN: 0787902667 (pbk.)
ISBN: 0787900516
SUBJECTS: Cults -- Controversial literature
Psychology, Religious
Persuasion (Psychology)
United States -- Religion -- 1960-
-----
Conway, Flo, 1941-
Snapping : America's epidemic of sudden personality change / Flo Conway and Jim Siegelman
2nd ed. New York : Stillpoint Press, c1995. 401 p.
ISBN: 0964765004 (pbk. : alk. paper)
SUBJECTS: Personality change
Psychotherapy -- United States
Group relations training -- United States
Conversion -- Comparative studies
Experience (Religion)
-----
Cialdini, Robert B
Influence : the psychology of persuasion.
Rev. ed. New York : Morrow, c1993. 320 p.
ISBN: 0688128165 (alk. paper) :
SUBJECTS: Influence (Psychology)
Persuasion (Psychology)
Compliance
-----
Kramer, Joel, 1937-
The guru papers : masks of authoritarian power / Joel Kramer and Diana Alstad
Berkeley, Calif. : North Atlantic Books/Frog, 1993. 385 p.
ISBN: 1883319005 (pbk.) :
SUBJECTS: Authoritarianism
Control (Psychology)
Authoritarianism -- Religious aspects
Control (Psychology) -- Religious aspects
Gurus -- Psychology
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Date: Wed, Feb 11, 1998 at 13:11:15 (EST)
Poster: more titles
Email:
To: Joy
Subject: Re: Recommended Reading
Message:
I'm putting together a list of books for the 'Breaking Free' section that are relevant to people who are wanting to leave MJ, or who have left in the past, whether two weeks or twenty years ago. We have already talked about The Guru Papers by Kramer and Alstad here on the site, but does anyone know of any other books which would be appropriate?
I have heard of a book called Cults: Faith, Healing & Coercion by Marc Galanter, but have not read it. Has anyone out there read it and can recommend it?
There's also a book called Snapping which is pretty good, and deals with people 'snapping' themselves out of cult-like thinking and behavior.
Any other suggestion?
Raphael, Marty
Spiritual vampires : the use and misuse of spiritual power
1st ed. Santa Fe, N.M. : Message Co., c1996. 255 p.
ISBN: 1572820063 (alk. paper)
SUBJECTS:
Religious addiction
Control (Psychology) -- Religious aspects
Authority -- Religious aspects
Manipulative behavior
Sex -- Religious aspects
-------
Storr, Anthony
Feet of clay : saints, sinners, and madmen : a study of gurus
New York : Free Press Paperbacks, 1997.
ISBN: 0684834952 (pbk. : alk. paper)
New York : Free Press, c1996.- 253 p.
ISBN: 0684828189
SUBJECTS:
Gurus -- Biography
Spiritual biography
Cults -- Biography
Gurus -- Psychology
Authoritarianism -- Religious aspects
Control (Psychology) -- Religious aspects
Charisma (Personality trait)
--------
Kavanaugh, Philip R., 1931-
Magnificent addiction
1st ed. Lower Lake, CA : Aslan Pub., c1992. 237 p.
ISBN: 0944031366
SUBJECTS:
Compulsive behavior -- Religious aspects
Substance abuse -- Religious aspects
Control (Psychology) -- Religious aspects
Addicts -- Religious life
-------
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Date: Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 21:34:57 (EST)
Poster: Scott T.
Email:
To: Everyone
Subject: Homer Simpson as "The Chosen One"
Message:
Just wondered if anyone saw tonights episode of the Simpsons. It's an older one, about "the Stonecutters," an exclusive group with secret initiation rites, etc. Homer becames a member, and after running afoul of the group, gets chosen as the leader because he has a sacred symbol on his butt. He wears a special suit reminiscent of the Chinese Child Emperor.
Anyway, after enjoying his "Maha" status by lording it over everyone for awhile he becomes convinced by his daughter that he needs to "help people." At that point, however, his followers start a new group, called the "No Homers." I guess the moral is that even as a "Chosen One" you can only get people to do what they are really willing to do anyway. Typically cute.
-Scott
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Date: Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 19:30:48 (EST)
Poster: VP
Email:
To: Everyone
Subject: Cult List
Message:
Anyone correct me if I am wrong, or let me know if you have already written a thread on this.
There used to be a cult list in this country. I understand that EV is on this list. (Along with the Mormon church and other religious denominations). The point that I would like to make is that if you are a member of a cult on the list, you can be excluded from obtaining employment in various fields (the teaching field and government are two examples). I don't know how an employer would find out this information. (You may have to supply it to them) This might be something for people who are questioning whether or not to receive knowledge to take under advisement. Does EV keep records of who is initiated?
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Date: Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 19:43:56 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email: joger02@ail.com
To: VP
Subject: Re: Cult List
Message:
Anyone correct me if I am wrong, or let me know if you have already written a thread on this.
There used to be a cult list in this country. I understand that EV is on this list. (Along with the Mormon church and other religious denominations). The point that I would like to make is that if you are a member of a cult on the list, you can be excluded from obtaining employment in various fields (the teaching field and government are two examples). I don't know how an employer would find out this information. (You may have to supply it to them) This might be something for people who are questioning whether or not to receive knowledge to take under advisement. Does EV keep records of who is initiated?
I assume different people/groups have lists of "cults" that vary from group to group. Frankly, I think it can be a pretty subjective thing, although CAN (Cult Awareness Network) for one, tries to strictly apply criterea for each group as to whether it is a cult or not.
As to being denied employment because you are a member of a cult, that's illegal, because it is essentially religious discrimination, which is illegal in all 50 states. You are entitled to believe whatever stupid religious thing you want, and no one can deny you employment, or housing, or public accommodations, on the basis of what you believe.
Now, on the other hand, in all but 11 states, you can be fired from your job because you happen to be gay, and there isn't a damn thing you can do about it. It's completely legal. Not exactly fair, now is it?
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Date: Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 20:02:23 (EST)
Poster: VP
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: Cult List
Message:
Anyone correct me if I am wrong, or let me know if you have already written a thread on this.
There used to be a cult list in this country. I understand that EV is on this list. (Along with the Mormon church and other religious denominations). The point that I would like to make is that if you are a member of a cult on the list, you can be excluded from obtaining employment in various fields (the teaching field and government are two examples). I don't know how an employer would find out this information. (You may have to supply it to them) This might be something for people who are questioning whether or not to receive knowledge to take under advisement. Does EV keep records of who is initiated?
I assume different people/groups have lists of 'cults' that vary from group to group. Frankly, I think it can be a pretty subjective thing, although CAN (Cult Awareness Network) for one, tries to strictly apply criterea for each group as to whether it is a cult or not.
As to being denied employment because you are a member of a cult, that's illegal, because it is essentially religious discrimination, which is illegal in all 50 states. You are entitled to believe whatever stupid religious thing you want, and no one can deny you employment, or housing, or public accommodations, on the basis of what you believe.
Now, on the other hand, in all but 11 states, you can be fired from your job because you happen to be gay, and there isn't a damn thing you can do about it. It's completely legal. Not exactly fair, now is it?
JW-
Just because something is illegal doesn't mean that it doesn't happen. I know someone who is a Mormon and was denied employment teaching at a preschool. They blatantly told her that it was because she was on a cult list. She did not pursue this with a lawyer.
I used to do a little investigative work for HUD. We would go to different housing (Apts, condos, etc.) after a black couple was denied housing due to "no openings" and check out whether or not this was legitimate. Most of the time, sadly, I was offered housing after the black person/couple was denied.
I know your point that this is not supposed to happen is correct, but our systems do fail from time to time. Of course you do not have to give out the information that you are the member of a cult in your office, but do you want to live a lie? That is something for a premie to consider.
The gay issue that you brought up is a whole other issue. I could write for days on this one, but for brevity I will just agree with you that that is one of the DUMBEST LAWS I have ever heard of!!! Speaking fo having to live a lie...
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Date: Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 20:07:55 (EST)
Poster: VP
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: gay laws (Re: Cult List)
Message:
Anyone correct me if I am wrong, or let me know if you have already written a thread on this.
There used to be a cult list in this country. I understand that EV is on this list. (Along with the Mormon church and other religious denominations). The point that I would like to make is that if you are a member of a cult on the list, you can be excluded from obtaining employment in various fields (the teaching field and government are two examples). I don't know how an employer would find out this information. (You may have to supply it to them) This might be something for people who are questioning whether or not to receive knowledge to take under advisement. Does EV keep records of who is initiated?
I assume different people/groups have lists of 'cults' that vary from group to group. Frankly, I think it can be a pretty subjective thing, although CAN (Cult Awareness Network) for one, tries to strictly apply criterea for each group as to whether it is a cult or not.
As to being denied employment because you are a member of a cult, that's illegal, because it is essentially religious discrimination, which is illegal in all 50 states. You are entitled to believe whatever stupid religious thing you want, and no one can deny you employment, or housing, or public accommodations, on the basis of what you believe.
Now, on the other hand, in all but 11 states, you can be fired from your job because you happen to be gay, and there isn't a damn thing you can do about it. It's completely legal. Not exactly fair, now is it?
JW-
Just because something is illegal doesn't mean that it doesn't happen. I know someone who is a Mormon and was denied employment teaching at a preschool. They blatantly told her that it was because she was on a cult list. She did not pursue this with a lawyer.
I used to do a little investigative work for HUD. We would go to different housing (Apts, condos, etc.) after a black couple was denied housing due to 'no openings' and check out whether or not this was legitimate. Most of the time, sadly, I was offered housing after the black person/couple was denied.
I know your point that this is not supposed to happen is correct, but our systems do fail from time to time. Of course you do not have to give out the information that you are the member of a cult in your office, but do you want to live a lie? That is something for a premie to consider.
The gay issue that you brought up is a whole other issue. I could write for days on this one, but for brevity I will just agree with you that that is one of the DUMBEST LAWS I have ever heard of!!! Speaking fo having to live a lie...
P.S. But of course, someone has a choice, in my opinion on whether or not to join a cult. A person has no choice over their sexuality. I believe that people are born with their sexual orientation. Some external things influence this, perhaps, but it has been my experience that this is not a choice.
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Date: Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 20:29:36 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: VP
Subject: Re: Cult List
Message:
Anyone correct me if I am wrong, or let me know if you have already written a thread on this.
There used to be a cult list in this country. I understand that EV is on this list. (Along with the Mormon church and other religious denominations). The point that I would like to make is that if you are a member of a cult on the list, you can be excluded from obtaining employment in various fields (the teaching field and government are two examples). I don't know how an employer would find out this information. (You may have to supply it to them) This might be something for people who are questioning whether or not to receive knowledge to take under advisement. Does EV keep records of who is initiated?
I assume different people/groups have lists of 'cults' that vary from group to group. Frankly, I think it can be a pretty subjective thing, although CAN (Cult Awareness Network) for one, tries to strictly apply criterea for each group as to whether it is a cult or not.
As to being denied employment because you are a member of a cult, that's illegal, because it is essentially religious discrimination, which is illegal in all 50 states. You are entitled to believe whatever stupid religious thing you want, and no one can deny you employment, or housing, or public accommodations, on the basis of what you believe.
Now, on the other hand, in all but 11 states, you can be fired from your job because you happen to be gay, and there isn't a damn thing you can do about it. It's completely legal. Not exactly fair, now is it?
JW-
Just because something is illegal doesn't mean that it doesn't happen. I know someone who is a Mormon and was denied employment teaching at a preschool. They blatantly told her that it was because she was on a cult list. She did not pursue this with a lawyer.
I used to do a little investigative work for HUD. We would go to different housing (Apts, condos, etc.) after a black couple was denied housing due to 'no openings' and check out whether or not this was legitimate. Most of the time, sadly, I was offered housing after the black person/couple was denied.
I know your point that this is not supposed to happen is correct, but our systems do fail from time to time. Of course you do not have to give out the information that you are the member of a cult in your office, but do you want to live a lie? That is something for a premie to consider.
The gay issue that you brought up is a whole other issue. I could write for days on this one, but for brevity I will just agree with you that that is one of the DUMBEST LAWS I have ever heard of!!! Speaking fo having to live a lie...
Oh, absolutely right VP. Those laws are still violated, that's why there are the laws in the first place. I would suggest that if your friend who was denied the teaching job because of her religion hired a lawyer and sued the school, she (and the lawyer) could make LOTS of money, and definitely discourage the school from ever trying that again. But if the preschool was a religious school, they might be exempt from the law, but I think the exemption is pretty narrow.
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Date: Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 20:33:15 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: VP
Subject: Re: gay laws (Re: Cult List)
Message:
Just because something is illegal doesn't mean that it doesn't happen. I know someone who is a Mormon and was denied employment teaching at a preschool. They blatantly told her that it was because she was on a cult list. She did not pursue this with a lawyer.
I used to do a little investigative work for HUD. We would go to different housing (Apts, condos, etc.) after a black couple was denied housing due to 'no openings' and check out whether or not this was legitimate. Most of the time, sadly, I was offered housing after the black person/couple was denied.
I know your point that this is not supposed to happen is correct, but our systems do fail from time to time. Of course you do not have to give out the information that you are the member of a cult in your office, but do you want to live a lie? That is something for a premie to consider.
The gay issue that you brought up is a whole other issue. I could write for days on this one, but for brevity I will just agree with you that that is one of the DUMBEST LAWS I have ever heard of!!! Speaking fo having to live a lie...
P.S. But of course, someone has a choice, in my opinion on whether or not to join a cult. A person has no choice over their sexuality. I believe that people are born with their sexual orientation. Some external things influence this, perhaps, but it has been my experience that this is not a choice.
Well, my experience is also that you can't do anything about your sexual orientation, nor should you be made to feel that you should even want to. You can also change your religion, but that is protected too.
I live in San Francisco, a place that is amazingly tolerant, and I sometimes forget that not everywhere is like here.
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Date: Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 20:59:03 (EST)
Poster: bftb
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: Cult List
Message:
Hopefully someone reading this will be able to set the record straight:a short while ago I saw a piece on 60 minutes that was all about how the church of scientology had effectively sued(and consequently broken financially),and once weakened actually bought and took over control of one of the best cult information resources.
This is where I'm hoping someone reading can confirm which group it was but unless there's another organization with a very similar sounding name I believe that it was 'can' or'cult awareness network'.
Their insidiousness knows no bounds.
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Date: Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 20:59:51 (EST)
Poster: Selena RE: CAN and ELLE
Email:
To: everyone
Subject: Re: Cult List
Message:
Well, I admit this isn't the most cerebral magazine, but you have to read something when your car is getting fixed and it beats auto machanics weekly, for me at least.
Anyway ELLE had an interesting small blurb about CAN: (I won't quote all of it):
==========================
"CAN was conceived as an unbiased resource for complaints reports and court cases on associations accused of brainwashing and deception.......Some, however, felt persecuted. .......... Several organizations forced its sale with lawsuits claiming religious discrimination and use of "deprogrammers".
"Tolerance" is the new party line, though many new CAN volunteers (many are Scientologists) fail to see the contradiction " ...
etc...
The gist is that the new workers refer people directly to the cult members, perhaps collaborating with the cults in some cases.
I know this isn't really what the thread is about, but I did want to mention it, since CAN was brought up. I am wary of them now, specifically because of the Scientology connection. In my opinion, they make M look like a teddy bear. If I am warong and someone knows more please let me know.
RE: a cult list, well, I am sure that a potential employer who is computer savy and who doesn't want to hire someone can find many reasons online. Ever get help for emotional problems? depression, etc.? Drug or alcohol dependency? It's all there and they can purchase it. It sucks but that's the down side of our new technology, the same one that lets us speak freely and support each other. I guess there is always some duality.
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Date: Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 21:35:13 (EST)
Poster: VP
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: Cult List
Message:
Anyone correct me if I am wrong, or let me know if you have already written a thread on this.
There used to be a cult list in this country. I understand that EV is on this list. (Along with the Mormon church and other religious denominations). The point that I would like to make is that if you are a member of a cult on the list, you can be excluded from obtaining employment in various fields (the teaching field and government are two examples). I don't know how an employer would find out this information. (You may have to supply it to them) This might be something for people who are questioning whether or not to receive knowledge to take under advisement. Does EV keep records of who is initiated?
I assume different people/groups have lists of 'cults' that vary from group to group. Frankly, I think it can be a pretty subjective thing, although CAN (Cult Awareness Network) for one, tries to strictly apply criterea for each group as to whether it is a cult or not.
As to being denied employment because you are a member of a cult, that's illegal, because it is essentially religious discrimination, which is illegal in all 50 states. You are entitled to believe whatever stupid religious thing you want, and no one can deny you employment, or housing, or public accommodations, on the basis of what you believe.
Now, on the other hand, in all but 11 states, you can be fired from your job because you happen to be gay, and there isn't a damn thing you can do about it. It's completely legal. Not exactly fair, now is it?
JW-
Just because something is illegal doesn't mean that it doesn't happen. I know someone who is a Mormon and was denied employment teaching at a preschool. They blatantly told her that it was because she was on a cult list. She did not pursue this with a lawyer.
I used to do a little investigative work for HUD. We would go to different housing (Apts, condos, etc.) after a black couple was denied housing due to 'no openings' and check out whether or not this was legitimate. Most of the time, sadly, I was offered housing after the black person/couple was denied.
I know your point that this is not supposed to happen is correct, but our systems do fail from time to time. Of course you do not have to give out the information that you are the member of a cult in your office, but do you want to live a lie? That is something for a premie to consider.
The gay issue that you brought up is a whole other issue. I could write for days on this one, but for brevity I will just agree with you that that is one of the DUMBEST LAWS I have ever heard of!!! Speaking fo having to live a lie...
Oh, absolutely right VP. Those laws are still violated, that's why there are the laws in the first place. I would suggest that if your friend who was denied the teaching job because of her religion hired a lawyer and sued the school, she (and the lawyer) could make LOTS of money, and definitely discourage the school from ever trying that again. But if the preschool was a religious school, they might be exempt from the law, but I think the exemption is pretty narrow.
It was a private religious school and could be exempt from the law. I agree that she should have investigated whether or not something could have been done.
I personally think that a lot of religions have their own cult aspects going on within. Secrets, etc. For one organized religion to name another a cult seems wrong to me. You are right, a list is a purely subjective thing. I forgot to agree with you on that earlier.
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Date: Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 21:48:46 (EST)
Poster: VP
Email:
To: Selena RE: CAN and ELLE
Subject: EV list and Scientology (Re: Cult List)
Message:
Well, I admit this isn't the most cerebral magazine, but you have to read something when your car is getting fixed and it beats auto machanics weekly, for me at least.
Anyway ELLE had an interesting small blurb about CAN: (I won't quote all of it):
==========================
'CAN was conceived as an unbiased resource for complaints reports and court cases on associations accused of brainwashing and deception.......Some, however, felt persecuted. .......... Several organizations forced its sale with lawsuits claiming religious discrimination and use of 'deprogrammers'.
'Tolerance' is the new party line, though many new CAN volunteers (many are Scientologists) fail to see the contradiction ' ...
etc...
The gist is that the new workers refer people directly to the cult members, perhaps collaborating with the cults in some cases.
I know this isn't really what the thread is about, but I did want to mention it, since CAN was brought up. I am wary of them now, specifically because of the Scientology connection. In my opinion, they make M look like a teddy bear. If I am warong and someone knows more please let me know.
RE: a cult list, well, I am sure that a potential employer who is computer savy and who doesn't want to hire someone can find many reasons online. Ever get help for emotional problems? depression, etc.? Drug or alcohol dependency? It's all there and they can purchase it. It sucks but that's the down side of our new technology, the same one that lets us speak freely and support each other. I guess there is always some duality.
I don't know a lot about Scientology. I also would be interested in some more specifc info on them if anyone knows about it. Are they the folks who teach self improvement and you attain various levels of self awaremess through watching videos? I think I saw an expose on 20/20 or one of those shows where the celebrity scientologists had these plush places to practice their religion and the average Joe on the street had to go to these dives...
Again, does anyone here know if EV keeps records of those whom they initiate? Did DLM do this? Thanks! VP
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Date: Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 22:17:04 (EST)
Poster: Steve A
Email:
To: VP
Subject: Re: EV list and Scientology (Re: Cult List)
Message:
Dear VP
I know when I was initiated, they added my name to the list of Divinely awakened, mind vacuumed, foot kissing, Arti singing, Maharaji grovelling and well and truly hooked line and sinker community.
P.S. Good to here from you again VP.
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Date: Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 22:19:14 (EST)
Poster: Steve A
Email:
To: VP
Subject: Re: EV list and Scientology (Re: Cult List)
Message:
Oops, sorry for the bad spelling that should read Good to HEAR from you again VP.
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Date: Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 22:31:16 (EST)
Poster: VP
Email:
To: Steve A
Subject: Re: EV list and Scientology (Re: Cult List)
Message:
Oops, sorry for the bad spelling that should read Good to HEAR from you again VP.
Dear Steve A.,
Thanks and it's good to hear from you, too--" Goodaye to you, too mate!" (Just my little Aussie imitation accent for you) Don't worry, I always think that all spelling errors are typos. Mine are (ha ha).
Wow! That was quite a post. I think it's interesting. Why would they need to keep a list of people's names? Do they send people literature? Donation forms? Magazines? Do they sell the names to baragon vendors? No, seriously though I'm curious. How about it CD? JW?
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Date: Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 22:49:51 (EST)
Poster: Jw
Email:
To: bftb
Subject: Re: Cult List
Message:
Hopefully someone reading this will be able to set the record straight:a short while ago I saw a piece on 60 minutes that was all about how the church of scientology had effectively sued(and consequently broken financially),and once weakened actually bought and took over control of one of the best cult information resources.
This is where I'm hoping someone reading can confirm which group it was but unless there's another organization with a very similar sounding name I believe that it was 'can' or'cult awareness network'.
Their insidiousness knows no bounds.
As a matter of fact, Scientology went after CAN, the Cult Awareness Network, through SLAP lawsuits, actually put them into bankruptcy. The 60 Minutes program interviewed former Scientology lawyers who admitted that it was Scientology's goal to destroy CAN. They also interviewed the leaders of Scientology who had all the charisma of Dracula and all the annimation of a sawhorse. Very scary, really.
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Date: Wed, Feb 11, 1998 at 05:55:36 (EST)
Poster: Mr Ex
Email:
To: VP
Subject: Re: EV list and Scientology (Re: Cult List)
Message:
>Again, does anyone here know if EV keeps records
>of those whom they initiate? Did DLM do this?
>Thanks! VP
The answer is no, as far as I know.
At least not officially inside the organization.
Some local EV might, who knows?
BUT
Lists are made here and there when k sessions
occur, in order to call and invite aspirants etc
Lists of aspirants are made here and there also
to invite them to aspirants meetings, etc
EV has mailing lists as you know, you’ve very
likely been on these.
EV has a database of people who pre-register to
big events with m (with their credit card #)
EV has lists of people who regularily donate to
the Swiss foundation.
Etc etc, EV has plenty of lists.
Who knows what’s done with those:
statistics, that’s for sure.
M is a statistics maniac, that’s also for sure.
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Date: Wed, Feb 11, 1998 at 11:35:25 (EST)
Poster: John Cavad
Email:
To: Mr Ex
Subject: Re: EV list and Scientology (Re: Cult List)
Message:
DLM did keep phone list of all premies and aspirants and donators in the local communities in the 70's and early 80's that were updated monthly and always available to anyone. But that's pre-PC days, and no computer data bases were kept locally. Who knows what happened with all those lists? Probably many premies/ex-premies kept some of this stuff in their attic. I burnt almost everything - especially anything with satsang.
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Date: Wed, Feb 11, 1998 at 17:31:41 (EST)
Poster: JW: Gay Rights/
Email:
To: VP
Subject: Re: Gay Rights (Re: Cult List)
Message:
I'm sure you may have heard that the nice people of the state of Maine, just REPEALLED their gay rights'ordinance, so it's now in all but only 10 states that you can be legally fired from your job just because you happen to be gay (or denied housing or be served in a restaurant or store, etc.) One step forward, two steps back.
I understand that the repeal initiative was instigated and financed by those wonderful, caring, unbigoted people at the "christian" Coalition.
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Date: Wed, Feb 11, 1998 at 18:11:52 (EST)
Poster: VP
Email:
To: JW: Gay Rights/
Subject: Re: Gay Rights (Re: Cult List)
Message:
I'm sure you may have heard that the nice people of the state of Maine, just REPEALLED their gay rights'ordinance, so it's now in all but only 10 states that you can be legally fired from your job just because you happen to be gay (or denied housing or be served in a restaurant or store, etc.) One step forward, two steps back.
I understand that the repeal initiative was instigated and financed by those wonderful, caring, unbigoted people at the 'christian' Coalition.
I didn't hear that yet and I'm very sorry about it. I'm sure that Jesus would be very proud of his "loving" followers. (Heavy sarcasm here).
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Date: Wed, Feb 11, 1998 at 19:01:26 (EST)
Poster: cult list
Email: VP
To: JW
Subject: My personal (Re: Cult List)
Message:
I'm sure you may have heard that the nice people of the state of Maine, just REPEALLED their gay rights'ordinance, so it's now in all but only 10 states that you can be legally fired from your job just because you happen to be gay (or denied housing or be served in a restaurant or store, etc.) One step forward, two steps back.
I understand that the repeal initiative was instigated and financed by those wonderful, caring, unbigoted people at the 'christian' Coalition.
I didn't hear that yet and I'm very sorry about it. I'm sure that Jesus would be very proud of his 'loving' followers. (Heavy sarcasm here).
This is kind of off subject, but the Christian Coalition is on my personal cult list...
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Date: Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 16:53:19 (EST)
Poster: Scott T.
Email:
To: Everyone
Subject: Good Charisma
Message:
Hi:
I've been thinking about starting this thread concerning "good charisma." I intended to post something along those lines on David Lane's website: The Neural Surfer. However, I have been completing my Ph.D. and never got around to it. Getting some direct feedback from people who I know have wrestled with this issue would be helpful for me, and might be useful for others. The basic idea is that we have to deal with charismatic leaders, and some of them do more than a little good. So, what are some examples of "good charisma" and what differentiates them from the bad guys? If no one is interested in pursuing this just let me know and I'll shut up.
-Scott
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Date: Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 18:12:01 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: Scott T.
Subject: Re: Good Charisma
Message:
Hi:
I've been thinking about starting this thread concerning 'good charisma.' I intended to post something along those lines on David Lane's website: The Neural Surfer. However, I have been completing my Ph.D. and never got around to it. Getting some direct feedback from people who I know have wrestled with this issue would be helpful for me, and might be useful for others. The basic idea is that we have to deal with charismatic leaders, and some of them do more than a little good. So, what are some examples of 'good charisma' and what differentiates them from the bad guys? If no one is interested in pursuing this just let me know and I'll shut up.
-Scott
Examples of "good charisma" or people who used their charisma for good.
Mother Theresa
Mahatma Ghandi
Martin Luther King
Princess Diana(?) -- especially in he later years
Ralph Nader (in my opinion)
Paul Robson
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Date: Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 19:03:33 (EST)
Poster: Scott T.
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: Good Charisma
Message:
Hi:
I've been thinking about starting this thread concerning 'good charisma.' I intended to post something along those lines on David Lane's website: The Neural Surfer. However, I have been completing my Ph.D. and never got around to it. Getting some direct feedback from people who I know have wrestled with this issue would be helpful for me, and might be useful for others. The basic idea is that we have to deal with charismatic leaders, and some of them do more than a little good. So, what are some examples of 'good charisma' and what differentiates them from the bad guys? If no one is interested in pursuing this just let me know and I'll shut up.
-Scott
Examples of 'good charisma' or people who used their charisma for good.
Mother Theresa
Mahatma Ghandi
Martin Luther King
Princess Diana(?) -- especially in he later years
Ralph Nader (in my opinion)
Paul Robson
JW
Thanks for the list. Wouldn't argue with any of those, except that the public's reaction to Diana's death was pretty scary. I was one of those who thought it deserved a 15 minute coverage.
I'd like to add a few names to your list, which I think may be to "unproblematic." The following people are not any better or worse than those folks, but they give a clearer example of what differentiates "good" from "bad." After all, we can't really decide based entirely on "good works." Well anyway, my list, from secular to religious, is:
George Washington
Nelson Mandela
R. Buckminster Fuller
J. Krishnamurti
Jesus Christ
I probably know more about Washington and Fuller than the others. People don't have much of an idea how much power Washington had after the Revolution. He was literally the symbol of the new country, which really didn't have much legitimacy apart from him. A new country with an untried system of government, very little military or economic power, a group of states that were in a constant fight with one another... etc.
What Washington did was to step down. It doesn't sound like much, but it was every thing. In relinquishing power, peacefully, to his ideological opponents he established the precedent for the peaceful transition of power. He also allowed his own personal charisma to be transferred and institutionalized in the government and constitution of the new country. In a real sense Washington lives on in the US Constitution, because it would not now enjoy the reverence and respect we hold for it had he chosen to retain his power. Look an all the failed attempts to copy the US Constitution.
Well, that's my two cents for the moment.
-Scott
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Date: Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 19:34:14 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: Scott T.
Subject: Re: Good Charisma
Message:
Hi:
I've been thinking about starting this thread concerning 'good charisma.' I intended to post something along those lines on David Lane's website: The Neural Surfer. However, I have been completing my Ph.D. and never got around to it. Getting some direct feedback from people who I know have wrestled with this issue would be helpful for me, and might be useful for others. The basic idea is that we have to deal with charismatic leaders, and some of them do more than a little good. So, what are some examples of 'good charisma' and what differentiates them from the bad guys? If no one is interested in pursuing this just let me know and I'll shut up.
-Scott
Examples of 'good charisma' or people who used their charisma for good.
Mother Theresa
Mahatma Ghandi
Martin Luther King
Princess Diana(?) -- especially in he later years
Ralph Nader (in my opinion)
Paul Robson
JW
Thanks for the list. Wouldn't argue with any of those, except that the public's reaction to Diana's death was pretty scary. I was one of those who thought it deserved a 15 minute coverage.
I'd like to add a few names to your list, which I think may be to 'unproblematic.' The following people are not any better or worse than those folks, but they give a clearer example of what differentiates 'good' from 'bad.' After all, we can't really decide based entirely on 'good works.' Well anyway, my list, from secular to religious, is:
George Washington
Nelson Mandela
R. Buckminster Fuller
J. Krishnamurti
Jesus Christ
I probably know more about Washington and Fuller than the others. People don't have much of an idea how much power Washington had after the Revolution. He was literally the symbol of the new country, which really didn't have much legitimacy apart from him. A new country with an untried system of government, very little military or economic power, a group of states that were in a constant fight with one another... etc.
What Washington did was to step down. It doesn't sound like much, but it was every thing. In relinquishing power, peacefully, to his ideological opponents he established the precedent for the peaceful transition of power. He also allowed his own personal charisma to be transferred and institutionalized in the government and constitution of the new country. In a real sense Washington lives on in the US Constitution, because it would not now enjoy the reverence and respect we hold for it had he chosen to retain his power. Look an all the failed attempts to copy the US Constitution.
Well, that's my two cents for the moment.
-Scott
I agree with your list too, except I have a hard time getting past the idea that Washington owned slaves. I actually always admired Jefferson more, but then he owned slaves, too.
I also agree the Diana funeral was a "media riot," but god, that woman always was absolutely georgeous. She always looked like a million bucks and she seemed to be using her charisma for good causes, like AIDS research and the elimination of land mines.
Here are a few more of mine. Obviously, they give you my political leanings.
Noam Chomsky
Archbishop Romero
The people of East Timor
Earl Warren
William Brennan (the Supreme Court Justice, not the actor)
Medgar Evers
Frederick Douglas
The King of Denmark during WWII who put on the yellow star
The entire population of that town El Chambon in France
That guy with the shopping bags standing in front of the tank Beijing
Anan Su Chee in Burma
Bobby Sands
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Date: Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 19:57:02 (EST)
Poster: Scott T.
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: Good Charisma
Message:
Hi:
I've been thinking about starting this thread concerning 'good charisma.' I intended to post something along those lines on David Lane's website: The Neural Surfer. However, I have been completing my Ph.D. and never got around to it. Getting some direct feedback from people who I know have wrestled with this issue would be helpful for me, and might be useful for others. The basic idea is that we have to deal with charismatic leaders, and some of them do more than a little good. So, what are some examples of 'good charisma' and what differentiates them from the bad guys? If no one is interested in pursuing this just let me know and I'll shut up.
-Scott
Examples of 'good charisma' or people who used their charisma for good.
Mother Theresa
Mahatma Ghandi
Martin Luther King
Princess Diana(?) -- especially in he later years
Ralph Nader (in my opinion)
Paul Robson
JW
Thanks for the list. Wouldn't argue with any of those, except that the public's reaction to Diana's death was pretty scary. I was one of those who thought it deserved a 15 minute coverage.
I'd like to add a few names to your list, which I think may be to 'unproblematic.' The following people are not any better or worse than those folks, but they give a clearer example of what differentiates 'good' from 'bad.' After all, we can't really decide based entirely on 'good works.' Well anyway, my list, from secular to religious, is:
George Washington
Nelson Mandela
R. Buckminster Fuller
J. Krishnamurti
Jesus Christ
I probably know more about Washington and Fuller than the others. People don't have much of an idea how much power Washington had after the Revolution. He was literally the symbol of the new country, which really didn't have much legitimacy apart from him. A new country with an untried system of government, very little military or economic power, a group of states that were in a constant fight with one another... etc.
What Washington did was to step down. It doesn't sound like much, but it was every thing. In relinquishing power, peacefully, to his ideological opponents he established the precedent for the peaceful transition of power. He also allowed his own personal charisma to be transferred and institutionalized in the government and constitution of the new country. In a real sense Washington lives on in the US Constitution, because it would not now enjoy the reverence and respect we hold for it had he chosen to retain his power. Look an all the failed attempts to copy the US Constitution.
Well, that's my two cents for the moment.
-Scott
I agree with your list too, except I have a hard time getting past the idea that Washington owned slaves. I actually always admired Jefferson more, but then he owned slaves, too.
I also agree the Diana funeral was a 'media riot,' but god, that woman always was absolutely georgeous. She always looked like a million bucks and she seemed to be using her charisma for good causes, like AIDS research and the elimination of land mines.
Here are a few more of mine. Obviously, they give you my political leanings.
Noam Chomsky
Archbishop Romero
The people of East Timor
Earl Warren
William Brennan (the Supreme Court Justice, not the actor)
Medgar Evers
Frederick Douglas
The King of Denmark during WWII who put on the yellow star
The entire population of that town El Chambon in France
That guy with the shopping bags standing in front of the tank Beijing
Anan Su Chee in Burma
Bobby Sands
JW:
Well, this is beginning to sound like "famous people who've done good works," which presents some difficulties in recognizing "good" from "bad." However, I have to say that Maharaji fails even this rather mild test, for I don't recall his having done anything that could remotely be referred to as "noble." I mean, he hasn't done anything that I would refer to as evil either (except for the general lies and economic exploitation).
Noam Chomsky is an interesting choice. I admire his work a great deal. It seems to me to play a big part in solving the great human puzzle (which MJ claims no have solved w/o effort). Bobby Sands fits the same set of criteria I had for Washington, in the sense that he was willing to put himself out of the way for the sake of the larger cause. Just to play Devil's Advocate for a second though... why would not David Koresh and Jim Jones also fit that pattern?
-Scott
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Date: Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 20:12:03 (EST)
Poster: Scott T.
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: Good Charisma, Addendum (Re: Good Charisma)
Message:
JW:
I just wanted to add that the guy with the shopping bags in front of the tank at Tienannmen [sp?] was the most extraordinary thing I've ever seen. Clearly this person was not famous, though I think his name is known. In fact, I'd have to say that what happened there passes my understanding.
-Scott
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Date: Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 20:40:17 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: Scott T.
Subject: Re: Good Charisma
Message:
David Koresh and Jim Jones, in my opinion, trashed their own lives out of megalomania and paranoia, not out of a desire to better the conditions of people or for a noble cause. Plus, their deaths obviously benefited no one.
I grew up with a father you really believed in service to others as an obligation of a human being. One of the difficult things about Maharaji for me, is how he denigrated getting involved to benefit others. He just said to focus on HIM and your own experience, period. Accordingly, I found he and premies to be incredibly self-absorbed and without any feeling of obligation to make the world a better place. That's why, I think, if you go to a program, you see a big emphasis on all the stuff M is into. Like really nice designer clothes that all the premies wear.
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Date: Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 21:07:24 (EST)
Poster: Scott T.
Email:
To: Anyone and everyone
Subject: Re: Good Charisma
Message:
I've been thinking about this charisma stuff for quite awhile, so wonder if you'd bear with me through three rather mind-bending paragraphs.
The sociologist Max Weber, who wrote The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism, linked charisma to magic and to the capacity to perform "extraordinary acts" that transcend the rules of the conventional order. Charisma was also the first in his progression of sources of legitimation: charismatic, traditional, and legal-rational. In the last chapter of The Protestant Ethic... Weber talked about the consequences of this progression, resulting in an "iron cage" that compels people to live lives of quite desperation, and to the degradation of the noble aspirations of the Puritan Ethic to become what he called derisively "sport." What is implied in Weber's writings, but which he was never able to make explicit because he died prematurely in the Influenza Pandemic of 1918, was that he saw charisma as a possible way out of the iron cage. This leads to the concept of a legitimation cycle, where charisma is a way to break out of the confines of the legal-rational and start the process again (George Washington, and the Founders, etc.)
The other thing Weber failed to see, but which is implied in JW's list, is the notion of a "charismatic society" or group. The Muslim name for a society centered around virtue, rather than rationality, is the Umma. It is extremely important to be able to tell good from bad charisma because when you are under it's influence your ability to apply rational tests in very very weak. However, I think it is possible to get some kind of handle on this, by comparing JW's list with some of the religious leaders and groups we know about... Maharaji is not even a close call, but his group of followers almost qualify as an Umma if you discount the fact that they are so enthralled. I don't know about things recently, but I've always considered premies to be one of the most attractive groups I've seen, and that applies to ex-premies as wall. Actually, this opinion is really in retrospect, and in comparison to a lot of groups I've encountered, both religious and secular. I did not think they were really so hot whon I was an active premie. I think this all has to do with a balance between individualism and empathy, or something. Well, anyway... what do you think?
-Scott
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Date: Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 22:26:58 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Scott T.
Subject: Re: Good Charisma
Message:
Dear Scott - I won't comment on the philosophical material you brought up (for now anyway). I think Weber's ideas (I'd heard of him but never knew anything about what he wrote) about charisma as "a way out of the iron cage" are fascinating though.
I did want to comment on premies as an "Umma" (society centered around virtue rather than rationality). Something Selena said in one of the threads on the very bottom really struck me. I have kept meaning to bring it up to the top, but your description of premies as an attractive group of people (which I totally agreed with back in the 1970's, and which is one of the reasons I became a premie and stuck with it for five years) was a good reason to.
Here's Selena's quote:
"Maybe it's because I hang around so long. What I see happening more and more is the sense of community is gone or going away. The premies I know seem to have come to some rationalizations that sort of make it all focused on M and they seem to care less and less about each other. When the Long Beach event let out one night it was raining hard, and I got shoved getting into the bus, the premies were as rude trying to get on the bus first as any subway commute.
It's hard to explain but an oversimplified explanation is that they blame premies lack of understanding or clarity when things go wrong, or they blame 'the world', but then they give M all the credit for the good times or experiences.
For example, the hotel room wasn't ready on time, that's the world for you, the hotel management is stupid, etc.. but, let's say you ended up getting an upgraded room for the same price, well, that's M's grace. [Note from Katie: in the "olden days" if the hotel room wasn't ready, we would have said that THAT was M's grace, too!]
This depersonalization has happened more and more, the events seem to be a lot less friendly, people will say things like 'I am only here for M and the experience, not for the premies, etc..' Am I making sense? Brian said it well when he said that a hall of people facing a stage is very different than a small group gathered in a circle sharing an experience."
I was really surprised to read this posting. In my opinion, and I think Brian may have been trying to say this too, premies act differently now because they're not allowed to have satsang (and talk about their personal experiences) anymore. I wonder if you can even get to know the people in your community the way you can when there was nightly satsang? Actually, I wonder if there is such a thing as the "premie community" anymore. With videos, all you really get to know is Maharaji, and you only get to "know" some image of him that the people who edit the videos want you to see.
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Date: Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 22:43:38 (EST)
Poster: VP
Email:
To: Katie
Subject: Video God (Re: Good Charisma)
Message:
Dear Katie,
Think about how M made everyone stop having Satsung and closed the ashrams and how the focus just went to him. It all makes sense. If you have too much contact with others you will be exposed to other points of view, other thoughts, maybe even some doubts. If it is all so personal and one on one then he has total control over your experience with EV. There is no community- just you and your video God. Wow, who said M doesn't like technology? He IS technology. Don't you think this is the perfect religion for the 90's? You can drive up and get your food and money from machines. Machines talk to you on the phone. We talk across oceans with machines and now we can get devotion to the guru and to "God" this way, too. Haleluiah!
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Date: Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 22:57:49 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: VP
Subject: Re: Video God (Re: Good Charisma)
Message:
Hi VP -
I still think it's strange. I think it would be to Maharaji's advantage to have the premies know, like, and care about each other. I know it might still be like that in some places (for example Mili talked about the people in his community in Croatia like that - even though they watch videos instead of having Satsang). But I suppose that you're right - that premies expressing their own experiences in Satsang didn't parrot Maharaji's official party line exactly and that's why he stopped it.
By the way, I forgot to comment on one more thing in my post above. I think Selena and Joy and maybe JW have posted about people wearing expensive designer clothing to go to programs. This surprised me very much too. For one thing, a lot of the premies that I knew when I was a premie couldn't have afforded clothes like that, and for another thing the programs were outside, or in places where you were sitting on the concrete floor, etc. NOT a good place to wear expensive clothes.
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Date: Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 23:19:28 (EST)
Poster: Scott T.
Email:
To: Katie
Subject: Re: Good Charisma
Message:
Dear Scott - I won't comment on the philosophical material you brought up (for now anyway). I think Weber's ideas (I'd heard of him but never knew anything about what he wrote) about charisma as 'a way out of the iron cage' are fascinating though.
I did want to comment on premies as an 'Umma' (society centered around virtue rather than rationality). Something Selena said in one of the threads on the very bottom really struck me. I have kept meaning to bring it up to the top, but your description of premies as an attractive group of people (which I totally agreed with back in the 1970's, and which is one of the reasons I became a premie and stuck with it for five years) was a good reason to.
Here's Selena's quote:
'Maybe it's because I hang around so long. What I see happening more and more is the sense of community is gone or going away. The premies I know seem to have come to some rationalizations that sort of make it all focused on M and they seem to care less and less about each other. When the Long Beach event let out one night it was raining hard, and I got shoved getting into the bus, the premies were as rude trying to get on the bus first as any subway commute.
It's hard to explain but an oversimplified explanation is that they blame premies lack of understanding or clarity when things go wrong, or they blame 'the world', but then they give M all the credit for the good times or experiences.
For example, the hotel room wasn't ready on time, that's the world for you, the hotel management is stupid, etc.. but, let's say you ended up getting an upgraded room for the same price, well, that's M's grace. [Note from Katie: in the 'olden days' if the hotel room wasn't ready, we would have said that THAT was M's grace, too!]
This depersonalization has happened more and more, the events seem to be a lot less friendly, people will say things like 'I am only here for M and the experience, not for the premies, etc..' Am I making sense? Brian said it well when he said that a hall of people facing a stage is very different than a small group gathered in a circle sharing an experience.'
I was really surprised to read this posting. In my opinion, and I think Brian may have been trying to say this too, premies act differently now because they're not allowed to have satsang (and talk about their personal experiences) anymore. I wonder if you can even get to know the people in your community the way you can when there was nightly satsang? Actually, I wonder if there is such a thing as the 'premie community' anymore. With videos, all you really get to know is Maharaji, and you only get to 'know' some image of him that the people who edit the videos want you to see.
Katie, et al.
That is quite interesting. Weber refered to the process leading to the iron cage as "rationalization," by which he meant that it was related to a systemitazation of profit taking and acquisition. That's not quite what Selena means by the term, but it fits anyway. The "mature" group is almost completely rationalized, from the leader's perspective anyway.
I also should say that I notice a lot of the attractive traits I used to see in premies in a minority of the larger society. Thanks for briniging me up to date.
One more thing crosses my mind. There's a guy name Colin Campbell who wrote a take-off on Weber called The Hedonist Ethic and the Spirit of Modern Consumerism, or something like that. It's not quite a classic, but he has some good ideas about haw hedonism evolves into a search for virtue.
-Scott
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Date: Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 23:29:34 (EST)
Poster: CD
Email:
To: Katie
Subject: Re: Video God (Re: Good Charisma)
Message:
> people wearing expensive designer clothing to go to programs.
There is still quite a variety of people to be found at the programs.
Some rich and some poor.
Some plain and some dressed for a fashion show..
Some like to go to bed early and a few are party animals.
Most seemed to get along pretty well at Long Beach.
When I was at Rome in July 96 I met some characters who had driven a van from England and were camping out in party land.
CD
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Date: Wed, Feb 11, 1998 at 00:29:42 (EST)
Poster: Joy
Email:
To: Scott T.
Subject: Re: Good Charisma
Message:
Joe and Scott, please add The Dalai Lama to your lists.
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Date: Wed, Feb 11, 1998 at 09:14:40 (EST)
Poster: Scott T.
Email: stalking@freewheeling.com
To: JW
Subject: Re: Good Charisma
Message:
David Koresh and Jim Jones, in my opinion, trashed their own lives out of megalomania and paranoia, not out of a desire to better the conditions of people or for a noble cause. Plus, their deaths obviously benefited no one.
I grew up with a father you really believed in service to others as an obligation of a human being. One of the difficult things about Maharaji for me, is how he denigrated getting involved to benefit others. He just said to focus on HIM and your own experience, period. Accordingly, I found he and premies to be incredibly self-absorbed and without any feeling of obligation to make the world a better place. That's why, I think, if you go to a program, you see a big emphasis on all the stuff M is into. Like really nice designer clothes that all the premies wear.
JW:
I agree that Koresh, Jones, and GMJ were very self-absorbed phenomena. There was a cute episode of the Simpsons (not OJ) about Homer being the "Chosen One." After lording it over everyone for awhile his daughter convinces him to use his power to "help others." At that point his followers all leave. There's a symbiosis between leader and follower that locks both into a pattern of behavior. That's why I think that one of the "clues" to "good charisma" is the willingness to step down, to grant your followers the sovereignty of "exit." I'm still waiting to see how Mandela and Yeltsin handle this. Reportedly, both see George Washington as a role model.
-Scott
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Date: Wed, Feb 11, 1998 at 11:44:39 (EST)
Poster: John Cavad
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: Good Charisma
Message:
Bobby Sands? Interesting. I was at his gravesite in Belfast not that long ago.
I saw Ronald Regan on his last speech campainging for President in 1984 (I was right up there in front of him wearing my funny hat). Regan had lots and lots of charisma (that's about it in my opinion). He brought all his Hollywood friends like Frank Sinatra, Charton Heston and Wayne Newton (now that guy has no talent but lots of charisma to pull off a show getting women to fall all over him). Most celebrities in Hollywood that make it big don't necessarily have great talent, but rather great charisma on film.
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Date: Wed, Feb 11, 1998 at 11:52:44 (EST)
Poster: John Cavad
Email:
To: VP
Subject: Re: Less Sex After Satsang (Re: Good Charisma)
Message:
I would presume that because premies don't get to know each other, there's a lot less sex after an evening of satsang. Don't laugh, now. We all know how seductive satsang could be: listening to all your sisters (or brothers) speak to you, all blissed out, smiling, feeling all that love (real or illusion - who cares) winking at you, etc.
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Date: Wed, Feb 11, 1998 at 11:58:51 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: CD
Subject: Re: Video God (Re: Good Charisma)
Message:
> people wearing expensive designer clothing to go to programs.
There is still quite a variety of people to be found at the programs.
Some rich and some poor.
Some plain and some dressed for a fashion show..
Some like to go to bed early and a few are party animals.
Most seemed to get along pretty well at Long Beach.
When I was at Rome in July 96 I met some characters who had driven a van from England and were camping out in party land.
CD
Dear CD - That's a relief, although it's weird to hear about ANYONE wearing expensive designer clothes to go to a program. It's just so different from the way it used to be.
By the way, CD, I know that you are a nice guy. For example, I know that you like other premies and even ex-premies as well as Maharaji. And you probably wouldn't shove people aside if you were getting on to a bus in the rain after a program!
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Date: Wed, Feb 11, 1998 at 12:39:27 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: John Cavad
Subject: Re: Good Charisma
Message:
Bobby Sands? Interesting. I was at his gravesite in Belfast not that long ago.
I saw Ronald Regan on his last speech campainging for President in 1984 (I was right up there in front of him wearing my funny hat). Regan had lots and lots of charisma (that's about it in my opinion). He brought all his Hollywood friends like Frank Sinatra, Charton Heston and Wayne Newton (now that guy has no talent but lots of charisma to pull off a show getting women to fall all over him). Most celebrities in Hollywood that make it big don't necessarily have great talent, but rather great charisma on film.
Whether Ronald Reagan had "charisma" is definitely a matter of opinion. I personally couldn't stand to hear him speak because it was so obvious he was just mouthing the words someone else wrote. The fact that the American people fell for that, as well as his voodoo economics that quadrupled the national debt, has always been profoundly disturbing to me.
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Date: Wed, Feb 11, 1998 at 12:49:16 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: Scott T.
Subject: Re: Good Charisma
Message:
I agree that premies were an "attractive group" when I got involved. But what is "attractive" to a person depends on what that person is looking for. I was attracted to premies because they appeared simple, open, and they seemed to accept me were I was at without judgment. And, it didn't hurt that they seemed to espouse those "hippie values" so prevelent at the time, and so attractive to me.
But what I found was that once in the cult, premies were extremely intolerant of any diversion from the cult norms, especially the ashram premies, the initiators and PAM. There always were premies on the fringe who were more open and accepting, but they often felt, and probably were, marginalized and judged as being "spacy premies" who were lacking in the devotion department.
I also found that as time went on, by the late 70s and early 80s, premies as a group, became more and more miserable, stagnated, and competitive with each other over climbing the ladder of the cult hierarachy, in an attempt to either get power, or to get access to or attention from Maharaji.
So, premies became less and less attractive, at the same time Maharaji got more and more heavy and nutty, and propogation almost died out, because M and the group was "less attractive" to most people by that time.
JW
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Date: Wed, Feb 11, 1998 at 13:10:55 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: Katie
Subject: Re: Video God (Re: Good Charisma)
Message:
> people wearing expensive designer clothing to go to programs.
There is still quite a variety of people to be found at the programs.
Some rich and some poor.
Some plain and some dressed for a fashion show..
Some like to go to bed early and a few are party animals.
Most seemed to get along pretty well at Long Beach.
When I was at Rome in July 96 I met some characters who had driven a van from England and were camping out in party land.
CD
Dear CD - That's a relief, although it's weird to hear about ANYONE wearing expensive designer clothes to go to a program. It's just so different from the way it used to be.
By the way, CD, I know that you are a nice guy. For example, I know that you like other premies and even ex-premies as well as Maharaji. And you probably wouldn't shove people aside if you were getting on to a bus in the rain after a program!
I agree Katie. Probably by the time you left, the "hippie style" was still in full swing. However, even by the late 70s and early 80s that had changed. The designer clothes deal really began for premies, especially at programs. Some of the initiators were really into it, wearing really expensive clothes (that they got some community or other to buy for them) and the premies kind of imitated that. Not everyone of course, but the DLM-types definitely got into it. The guys used to wear suits to programs (3-piece suits, which were the style then), especially on the day M gave darshan. Also, there was a strong dictate from M and PAM that premies should be more "relatable" to the public for propogation purposes. Unfortunately, that was translated into meaning that one should look like a young republican and that didn't work too well for the very group that was most open to getting involved with M in the first place, which were the younger, "counter-culture" types.
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Date: Wed, Feb 11, 1998 at 14:00:55 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: Video God (Re: Good Charisma)
Message:
JW - As I recall, we were definitely NOT supposed to look like hippies in the early to mid seventies, although some premies still did. If you were really devoted, though, you cut your hair (guys) and wore long skirts (girls) and tried to look "straight" and "sharp" (ha ha). The problem is that many of us were trying to look like straight people with absolutely no idea how to do it. Also, Maharaji (or someone) wanted the women to wear long skirts and it is really hard to look straight when you are wearing a long skirt. (Some of the women used to try and look professional by wearing a blazer and a long skirt but it just didn't make it.) And I am sure you remember the horrible looking suits and sport coats that the guys used to wear back then - if they didn't have any money (which most of us did not) they'd wear used polyester suits from Divine Sales.
I recently looked at some pictures from a friends premie wedding in 1974 and the clothes are a riot. It seems kind of funny and endearing now, but I remember that we took the whole dress code thing really seriously back then.
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Date: Wed, Feb 11, 1998 at 18:30:30 (EST)
Poster: VP
Email:
To: Katie
Subject: Re: Video God (Re: Good Charisma)
Message:
Hi VP -
I still think it's strange. I think it would be to Maharaji's advantage to have the premies know, like, and care about each other. I know it might still be like that in some places (for example Mili talked about the people in his community in Croatia like that - even though they watch videos instead of having Satsang). But I suppose that you're right - that premies expressing their own experiences in Satsang didn't parrot Maharaji's official party line exactly and that's why he stopped it.
By the way, I forgot to comment on one more thing in my post above. I think Selena and Joy and maybe JW have posted about people wearing expensive designer clothing to go to programs. This surprised me very much too. For one thing, a lot of the premies that I knew when I was a premie couldn't have afforded clothes like that, and for another thing the programs were outside, or in places where you were sitting on the concrete floor, etc. NOT a good place to wear expensive clothes.
Katie,
I agree that it would be to M's advantage to have a close premie community where the love is flowing! ( I was just feeling a bit sarcastic yesterday) I think a lot of things would be to his advantage:
1) a web site
2) a listing in the phone book
3) interviews and/or adverstising
I'll bet you that if he had these things,(and especially great sex after Satsang!) I would be a real live initiated premie writing you hateful mail on this site (well, maybe not hateful).
I wonder why he keeps such a low profile. I'll bet it has something to do with the research that JW (or Mr. Ex?) is undertaking. (i.e. finances/lifestyle)
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Date: Wed, Feb 11, 1998 at 22:07:57 (EST)
Poster: VP
Email:
To: John Cavad
Subject: Re: Less Sex After Satsang (Re: Good Charisma)
Message:
I would presume that because premies don't get to know each other, there's a lot less sex after an evening of satsang. Don't laugh, now. We all know how seductive satsang could be: listening to all your sisters (or brothers) speak to you, all blissed out, smiling, feeling all that love (real or illusion - who cares) winking at you, etc.
John,
I needed that laugh, thanks! That one was up there with the big cheese thread. Some friends of mine lived in a premie house and even though there was not supposed to be any sex happening...well, suffice it to say that you should have seen the looks that they gave one another at Satsang. There was some partner swapping happening without a doubt.
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Date: Wed, Feb 11, 1998 at 22:56:56 (EST)
Poster: CD
Email:
To: VP
Subject: Re: Video God (Re: Good Charisma)
Message:
>I wonder why he keeps such a low profile. I'll bet it has something to do with the research that JW (or Mr. Ex?) is undertaking. (i.e. finances/lifestyle)
You must be kidding?
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Date: Wed, Feb 11, 1998 at 23:02:34 (EST)
Poster: VP
Email:
To: CD
Subject: Re: Video God (Re: Good Charisma)
Message:
>I wonder why he keeps such a low profile. I'll bet it has something to do with the research that JW (or Mr. Ex?) is undertaking. (i.e. finances/lifestyle)
You must be kidding?
CD-
Kidding about them doing research or kidding about M hiding out? I do not understand why he keeps such a low profile. I keep asking this and unless I have missed a post, no one has answered this. I am really interested and not being sarcastic (for now).
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Date: Wed, Feb 11, 1998 at 23:28:49 (EST)
Poster: CD
Email:
To: Katie
Subject: Re: Video God (Re: Good Charisma)
Message:
Let me emphasize that the dress of people at Long Beach covered a very wide spectrum.
If there was a standard it was anything-goes.
A very interesting crowd of people without being a riot.
An excellent expression of diversity and unity.
I hitchhiked across the US a couple of times in the past but these days like a plane ride and nice hotel if I can get one.
CD
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Date: Thurs, Feb 12, 1998 at 05:52:22 (EST)
Poster: Mr Ex
Email:
To: VP
Subject: Low profile (Re: Good Charisma)
Message:
>Katie,
>I agree that it would be to M's advantage to have a close premie community where the >love is flowing! ( I was just feeling a bit sarcastic yesterday) I think a lot of things would >be to his advantage:
M doesn’t care about your life, your relationships etc (that’s my opinion, some premies won’t agree I’m sure).
His purpose is to establish peace in this world (remember?) .....
I’ m kidding, he’s probably become more realistic by now, and he knows very well that very few people will ever be interested by him and whatever his message is. Not that many people want to live a life of devotion. Even premies will agree.
Using EV and his precious devoted premies (they are not that many BTW) and their precious resources (time, money, technical skills, etc) to take care of a ‘premie community’ would be a waste of those resources, every organizer in EV would agree.
When it comes down to organizing events and managing EV on a regular basis, you don’t find that many dedicated people (willing to surrender to such a stupid organization). If those people (or a part of them) were involved in community activities (like it used to be in the 70s and early 80s), EV would lose it’s purpose which is to organize m’s events (not speaking of the ‘unofficial’ activities like Amtext, NSA, building residences, etc).
+ it becomes something like a club, which is very deterrent for many of those people he’d like to be able to reach. (premies will agree)
According to places, it might become something like some new age community or any other type of group you can imagine (Indian freaks, business freaks, sex club, whatever), and who’s going to have control over this? Again, this is what happened in the past, and m didn’t have much control on that type of groups.
If you think about m’s income, he desperately NEEDS to have as many events as possible (EV and him are in huge debts).
If you don’t take his income into account, it’s the same thing : he needs EV’s events to have as many aspirants as possible ready for receiving k, cause it’s his goal, and he’s totally dedicated to it (premies will definitely agree).
I’ll be nasty now: as 90% of the premies leave, sooner or later (premies will admit this with some difficulties, but they will), he desperately needs more new people to keep his business (whatever this word means for you) running. Make some simple calculations.
I’ll be more nasty: he can’t give k to enough people these days, that’s why he’s depressed. His depressive mood obviously affects the whole business.
He needs as many events as possible (and with quality) to keep (as long as possible) that devotion bound with the premies (they crave for this), and they will dedicate their life (for some time, until they’re fed up with him and EV) to have these events possible.
If everything was smooth and cool, much more premies would be involved (IMHO), and you could maybe have all these fancy activities.
BUT
It’s not that cool and smooth!
IF things were cool, IF m was not so stupid (sorry but this is what I convinced of) and not so psychotic (sorry for the offense, but I’m absolutely convinced he is), lots of things could be different in EV (that’s just a wild theory).
BUT
Mr Rawat should be different, which is of course not possible.
He probably agrees with a lot of what I just said.
As he’s obviously not going to question himself (why not after all, there is no harm to do that, believe me Prempal), nothing is ever going to change, unless some very unexpected things happen.
....................
>I wonder why he keeps such a low profile. I'll bet it has something
>to do with the research that JW (or Mr. Ex?) is undertaking.
>(i.e. finances/lifestyle)
Mr Rawat has already had lots of problems with exs.
That’s very likely why he has such a huge security day and night wherever he is, not speaking about his paranoia.
IRS and various people have already been after him.
He can’t do anything about the Internet.
He might have some problems with customs or IRS again, in the future, but he’s used to.
US gov has every mean to access to a lot of stuff, and if they want to chase him they can, they don’t need our help.
He might have some problems with his neighbors, he’s going
deal with them or move, that’s all.
Publishing documents about m is nothing really harmful (for him).
Some premies or aspirants might question the whole business:
that’s definitely my purpose.
I suffered of this, and I can’t help but thinking about these thousands of new people who are going to endure this BS and waste their lives.
If they can think twice before getting involved, that’s a good thing.
He can’t do anything but drink, and have some fun with his friends.
I perfectly understand.
If the Internet forces him and EV to keep a lower profile, that’s fine.
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Date: Thurs, Feb 12, 1998 at 09:28:37 (EST)
Poster: Mr Ex
Email:
To: VP
Subject: Lame charlatan=Low profile (Re: Good Charisma)
Message:
Now let’s try to go one step further.
1/ Let’s suppose this is not a cult.
EV is really some kind of meditation teaching organization.
With a non-profit & charity status.
If Mr Rawat claims to be a meditation teacher, he would then have to interact ‘normally’ with his students, in a regular environment.
Same thing with any media or curious people.
As a teacher I wouldn’t have any problem interacting with anybody, like you and I do everyday in our job or day to day life.
I don’t know any teacher, as famous as you can imagine, having any problem making his point and explaining his theory in front of anybody.
Even the most dubious scientists can do that.
Otherwise it’s very questionable, and people would really question everything.
Can you imagine this? Maharaji walking freely amongst anybody and his students, without bodyguards and realized souls around him?
Unless some major change occur in Mr Rawat’s personality and behavior, I can’t imagine this.
Let’s say it’s not a cult, and the teacher has a very strange behavior, like Mr Rawat does.
What’s your reaction?
Mine would be that he is a strange guy, that he is hiding something, whether in his teaching or in himself. I don’t know if I would be interested.
Meditation is supposed to give him some wisdom, some love, and he should be able to reflect it in his behavior and in his organization.
Otherwise there is something wrong.
What are the alternative?
I don’t think there is any.
2/ Let’s suppose this is a cult, hiding behind a so-called teaching.
Everything falls in place.
I don’t have anything against people being in a cult.
I can’t understand why Mr Rawat has a problem claiming this.
I would like to see him claiming that he is The Lord of the Universe, the Word made Flesh, like he does sometimes in private.
I don’t have any problem with this.
Millions of people will follow him.
Millions of people are waiting for the Messiah.
He is just a chicken. He doesn’t dare to claim what he is convinced of.
Lame charlatan.
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Date: Thurs, Feb 12, 1998 at 11:52:18 (EST)
Poster: VP
Email:
To: Mr Ex
Subject: Re: Low profile (Re: Good Charisma)
Message:
Mr. Ex,
Thanks for a straight answer. I guess the reason I keep harping on this secrecy/disclosure issue is because I really want other people to think about it, too, if they haven't already. To me it is one of the big eye openers (and I'm not talking about the third eye, either!) I agree that people need to think twice before getting involved.
I understand what you are saying about not burning up his resources to support a premie community or ashrams. I think what Katie and I meant was that if he allowed people to have Satsang and some of the more "love" elements that DLV had, he might draw more followers- get more support. Maybe we were just getting nostalgic.
I am just questioning him, pointing out the stupid way that he operates (in my opinion) so that maybe others will question him. I am saying: If I were the prince of peace and I had something fantastic that I was going to share with humans (who I loved) I would get my butt out there with the message. Wouldn't you? If he is going to bring peace to this world he'd better get the hell out of his bedroom! But of course, you are right, he doesn't give a fig about me or you or any of the aspirants or about any of the premies or about giving peace. His actions (or lack of them) speak volumes. Thanks again, VP
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Date: Thurs, Feb 12, 1998 at 18:35:00 (EST)
Poster: John Cavad
Email:
To: VP
Subject: Re: Less Sex After Satsang (Re: Good Charisma)
Message:
Hey VP, we both know it, and I'm sure we're not the only ones. Let's face it, with all that talk about love and happiness, it was easy to take those good feelings right down to your pants. Seriously, there was more sex in those situations than at a college dorm. Those poor Ashram premies missed out...well, at least most of them did. :)
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Date: Thurs, Feb 12, 1998 at 22:38:46 (EST)
Poster: VP
Email:
To: John Cavad
Subject: Re: Less Sex After Satsang (Re: Good Charisma)
Message:
Hey VP, we both know it, and I'm sure we're not the only ones. Let's face it, with all that talk about love and happiness, it was easy to take those good feelings right down to your pants. Seriously, there was more sex in those situations than at a college dorm. Those poor Ashram premies missed out...well, at least most of them did. :)
Hey, John! I didn't even have a driver's licence, let alone any hormones...and even I knew what was happening! Man, I should have gotten initiated, 'cause we had loads of sex in our college dorms! Hope your getting some now and so does the GMJ appreciation society above. More seriously, I think a good orgasm beats the hell out of the nectar technique. I know that's not very enlightened but it's the truth. V(oversexed)P
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Date: Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 16:02:26 (EST)
Poster: Scott T.
Email: stalking@freewheeling.com
To: eb
Subject: Badnesh bus
Message:
eb:
Who are you? It's pretty clear that you were on the crazy bus. Do you recall Bob's brother-in-law who had a manic-depressive episode on the way out, and we had to leave him in an assylum in Arizona? What a trip! Would you consider contacting me via email? I've also got an ICQ number.
-Scott
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Date: Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 16:41:35 (EST)
Poster: Scott T.
Email:
To: Scott T.
Subject: Sorry. I goofed. (Re: Badnesh bus)
Message:
eb:
Who are you? It's pretty clear that you were on the crazy bus. Do you recall Bob's brother-in-law who had a manic-depressive episode on the way out, and we had to leave him in an assylum in Arizona? What a trip! Would you consider contacting me via email? I've also got an ICQ number.
-Scott
Sorry. I didn't mean to start a new thread. Was just attempting to contact eb.
-Scott
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Date: Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 11:56:24 (EST)
Poster: John Cavad
Email: johncavad@yahoo.com
To: Everyone
Subject: PAM
Message:
Greetings.
Is PAM an acronym for "people around maharaji" or is it a real person, or perhaps both?
Thanks.
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Date: Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 12:20:29 (EST)
Poster: Mr Ex
Email:
To: John Cavad
Subject: Re: PAM
Message:
Greetings.
Is PAM an acronym for 'people around maharaji' or is it a real person, or perhaps both?
Thanks.
maybe we could try to make the name's list of
those PAM ....
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Date: Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 14:10:25 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: Mr Ex
Subject: Re: PAM
Message:
Greetings.
Is PAM an acronym for 'people around maharaji' or is it a real person, or perhaps both?
Thanks.
maybe we could try to make the name's list of
those PAM ....
Could you? That would be helpful. I assume:
Michael Dettmers, David Smith, etc.
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Date: Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 22:40:37 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: John Cavad
Subject: Re: PAM
Message:
Greetings.
Is PAM an acronym for 'people around maharaji' or is it a real person, or perhaps both?
Thanks.
Hi John.
The ex-premies started using the word PAM on the forum after the disappearance of the premie site (I think JW used it first). "People around Maharaji" was used when I was in DLM twenty years ago, usually as someone to blame something on. Anyway, PAM is an acronym, not a real person, as far as I know. Apologies to anyone who is really named Pam (unless they're a PAM, too.)
P.S. My husband (not/never a premie) suggested we use SPAM instead of PAM.
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Date: Wed, Feb 11, 1998 at 11:08:01 (EST)
Poster: John Cavad
Email:
To: Katie
Subject: Re: PAM
Message:
P.S. My husband (not/never a premie) suggested we use SPAM instead of
PAM.
Is that for "Sick Premies Around the Maniac"???
Thanks, Katie.
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Date: Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 10:44:41 (EST)
Poster: John K.
Email:
To: Everyone
Subject: Question
Message:
I know this might be considered old news, but I never got the real story because it happened before I found this ex page.
Why is it that the premies do not have their own web page? I heard they did have one at one time, and then that they were ordered to get rid of it?
Do we know who actually ordered that it be closed down? I assume it must have been M, but I mean did 'he' make a declaration in a program or was it done through using the people around M to let it be known what his wishes are?
Where I work we have videos that we can watch on the web of, for instance, our CEO speaking to us. I find it amazing that M does not make use of this technology. When I followed him, he was always so into computers. I cannot think of any reason other than he thinks his message cannot be communicated across the web. Perhaps grace cannot travel across the web?
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Date: Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 11:15:50 (EST)
Poster: -Scott T.
Email:
To: John K.
Subject: Re: Question
Message:
That's very interesting isn't it? I can only surmise that he doesn't want the exposure just yet. This is all very cagey on his part, but if I read the history and actions of the guy correcrly he is really not the same sort of power-for-it's-own-sake kind of person as David Koresh. Basically, it's just a very good living for MJ and he doesn't really want to flame out. If he has things the way he wants them then it's better to be conservative. Sort of flies in the face of the notion that he really wants to propagate Knowledge though, doesn't it? Also, the web it too open. Not really his kind of medium. Frankly, I read that as somewhat hopeful.
-Scott
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Date: Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 11:21:00 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: John K.
Subject: Re: Question
Message:
I know this might be considered old news, but I never got the real story because it happened before I found this ex page.
Why is it that the premies do not have their own web page? I heard they did have one at one time, and then that they were ordered to get rid of it?
Do we know who actually ordered that it be closed down? I assume it must have been M, but I mean did 'he' make a declaration in a program or was it done through using the people around M to let it be known what his wishes are?
Where I work we have videos that we can watch on the web of, for instance, our CEO speaking to us. I find it amazing that M does not make use of this technology. When I followed him, he was always so into computers. I cannot think of any reason other than he thinks his message cannot be communicated across the web. Perhaps grace cannot travel across the web?
As far as we know, it was the ubiquitous PAM ("people around Maharaji) that asked premies not to post on the internet anymore. Apparently print reporters in Australia used quotes from both the now-defunct premie.org site and the ex-premie.org site in a news article, and this made somebody mad. For further info read "Calling All Premies" at:
http://www.ex-premie.org/pages/calling.htm
I personally think that the premies should be able to have their own web page, but that's just my humble opinion.
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Date: Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 12:25:52 (EST)
Poster: Selena
Email:
To: everyone
Subject: Re: Question
Message:
He did say something about the web in LB. It was during his great participation speech I think.
It was something about spreading k and he said, 'and we don't need the web to do it either, we'll do it the old way like it's always been done' (I may not have the exact words, he didn't elaborate)
I found it an odd thing to say. Especially from someone who likes to brag about his technological acquisitions, etc.
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Date: Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 12:30:08 (EST)
Poster: John K.
Email:
To: Selena
Subject: Re: Question
Message:
Selena: what do you mean by 'great participation speech'. What does 'participation' refer to?
Re his attitude about the web, to me that sounds like some old fashioned fuddy duddy from India.
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Date: Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 13:01:46 (EST)
Poster: Selena
Email:
To: John K.
Subject: Re: Question
Message:
Selena: what do you mean by 'great participation speech'. What does 'participation' refer to?
Re his attitude about the web, to me that sounds like some old fashioned fuddy duddy from India.
Participation=service and propogation, I guess. Like traveling to Amaroo and pulling up weeds for a week or getting people to come to introductory videos.
One of the days of the event, he started in about how we need to be involved to really have an experience of knowledge. He really got into it. Talked about how many people are receiving knowledge, how many aspirants there are, how much there still is to do. People got stirred up, from what I could see.
Someone commented on the shuttle, when M talks like that she just asks him in her heart to show her how to participate because she doesn't understand.
What I want to nkow is, how could anyone expect to understand? It doesn't make any sense that one needs to do something directly involved with M or EV for an experience when the experience is inherent with life itself.
oh well, there I go thinking again.
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Date: Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 13:17:07 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: John K.
Subject: Re: Question
Message:
I know this might be considered old news, but I never got the real story because it happened before I found this ex page.
Why is it that the premies do not have their own web page? I heard they did have one at one time, and then that they were ordered to get rid of it?
Do we know who actually ordered that it be closed down? I assume it must have been M, but I mean did 'he' make a declaration in a program or was it done through using the people around M to let it be known what his wishes are?
Where I work we have videos that we can watch on the web of, for instance, our CEO speaking to us. I find it amazing that M does not make use of this technology. When I followed him, he was always so into computers. I cannot think of any reason other than he thinks his message cannot be communicated across the web. Perhaps grace cannot travel across the web?
I think Brian and Katie explained how Maharaji decided he didn't want premie.org around anymore and apparently discouraged, although I don't think he has actually forbidden, premies from talking about knowledge (and I guess HIM) on the internet.
I was interested in what Katie said about the Australian news article being the catalyst for this. Katie, where did you hear that?
I think M doesn't like the internet because it is so "democratic" and allows for two-way communication. Of course when it existed "premie.org" hardly even allowed for that. People could just post comments and there were not "subjects" and very little discussion, although I guess there was a little. M knows that open discussion of him and what he does is deadly for him. It encourages people to THINK about him and knowledge and he doesn't want that. Hell, he doesn't even allow premies to give satsang anymore. He is the ultimate control freak. Kind of sad, really.
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Date: Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 13:23:52 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: Selena
Subject: Re: Question
Message:
Selena: what do you mean by 'great participation speech'. What does 'participation' refer to?
Re his attitude about the web, to me that sounds like some old fashioned fuddy duddy from India.
Participation=service and propogation, I guess. Like traveling to Amaroo and pulling up weeds for a week or getting people to come to introductory videos.
One of the days of the event, he started in about how we need to be involved to really have an experience of knowledge. He really got into it. Talked about how many people are receiving knowledge, how many aspirants there are, how much there still is to do. People got stirred up, from what I could see.
Someone commented on the shuttle, when M talks like that she just asks him in her heart to show her how to participate because she doesn't understand.
What I want to nkow is, how could anyone expect to understand? It doesn't make any sense that one needs to do something directly involved with M or EV for an experience when the experience is inherent with life itself.
oh well, there I go thinking again.
It sounds like he is reintroducing the whole discipline of "service" which he used to say you HAD to do (serve Guru Maharaj Ji) or you won't get the true and complete experience of knowledge. [It used to be that knowledge was the experience you got only if you did all three:satsang, service and meditation.]
Service is a way to REALLY bind people to him, because it creates a whole hierarchy for people to aspire to, gives the possibility of getting close to M and/or becoming part of PAM, and probably increases donations, because people can consider that part of "service", or I guess he now calls it "participation." So, since the "internal experience" is so limited for most people, they may well try "service" along with "devotion/gratitude" to see if it gets them where they want to go. It won't, but people, unfortunately, can spend costly years pursuing it, all the M's personal/financial benefit.
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Date: Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 14:36:43 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: JW
Subject: Re: Question
Message:
I know this might be considered old news, but I never got the real story because it happened before I found this ex page.
Why is it that the premies do not have their own web page? I heard they did have one at one time, and then that they were ordered to get rid of it?
Do we know who actually ordered that it be closed down? I assume it must have been M, but I mean did 'he' make a declaration in a program or was it done through using the people around M to let it be known what his wishes are?
Where I work we have videos that we can watch on the web of, for instance, our CEO speaking to us. I find it amazing that M does not make use of this technology. When I followed him, he was always so into computers. I cannot think of any reason other than he thinks his message cannot be communicated across the web. Perhaps grace cannot travel across the web?
I think Brian and Katie explained how Maharaji decided he didn't want premie.org around anymore and apparently discouraged, although I don't think he has actually forbidden, premies from talking about knowledge (and I guess HIM) on the internet.
I was interested in what Katie said about the Australian news article being the catalyst for this. Katie, where did you hear that?
I think M doesn't like the internet because it is so 'democratic' and allows for two-way communication. Of course when it existed 'premie.org' hardly even allowed for that. People could just post comments and there were not 'subjects' and very little discussion, although I guess there was a little. M knows that open discussion of him and what he does is deadly for him. It encourages people to THINK about him and knowledge and he doesn't want that. Hell, he doesn't even allow premies to give satsang anymore. He is the ultimate control freak. Kind of sad, really.
Oops, JW, maybe I deduced it. I thought I talked to someone about it, but can't remember who, so perhaps it was my theory. Anyway, it happened right after Amaroo, and I know that during Amaroo the papers quoted the premie.org page (as well as the ex-premie stuff). If you recall, some of the things written on the premie.org page were pretty devotional and out there and not the greatest PR for Maharaji.
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Date: Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 16:22:57 (EST)
Poster: John K.
Email:
To: Katie
Subject: Re: Question
Message:
Katie, I'm shocked! spreading rumors! But you may be right about the sequence of events that lead to stopping the web site.
So, it sounds like we still really don't know why or even if M made this decree. I find it amazing that 'direct', 'clear' direction is still not given by M.
I think the followers eat it up because it adds an element of secrecy and mystery to M's actions. His actions and decisions are beyond normal human scrutiny and beyond normal human judgement. M is the master, he can do whatever he wants. It's all perfect. Why? Because 'he' is doing it. Question it, and you become a negative, skeptical element.
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Date: Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 16:36:37 (EST)
Poster: Scott T.
Email:
To: Katie
Subject: Re: Question
Message:
I know this might be considered old news, but I never got the real story because it happened before I found this ex page.
Why is it that the premies do not have their own web page? I heard they did have one at one time, and then that they were ordered to get rid of it?
Do we know who actually ordered that it be closed down? I assume it must have been M, but I mean did 'he' make a declaration in a program or was it done through using the people around M to let it be known what his wishes are?
Where I work we have videos that we can watch on the web of, for instance, our CEO speaking to us. I find it amazing that M does not make use of this technology. When I followed him, he was always so into computers. I cannot think of any reason other than he thinks his message cannot be communicated across the web. Perhaps grace cannot travel across the web?
I think Brian and Katie explained how Maharaji decided he didn't want premie.org around anymore and apparently discouraged, although I don't think he has actually forbidden, premies from talking about knowledge (and I guess HIM) on the internet.
I was interested in what Katie said about the Australian news article being the catalyst for this. Katie, where did you hear that?
I think M doesn't like the internet because it is so 'democratic' and allows for two-way communication. Of course when it existed 'premie.org' hardly even allowed for that. People could just post comments and there were not 'subjects' and very little discussion, although I guess there was a little. M knows that open discussion of him and what he does is deadly for him. It encourages people to THINK about him and knowledge and he doesn't want that. Hell, he doesn't even allow premies to give satsang anymore. He is the ultimate control freak. Kind of sad, really.
Oops, JW, maybe I deduced it. I thought I talked to someone about it, but can't remember who, so perhaps it was my theory. Anyway, it happened right after Amaroo, and I know that during Amaroo the papers quoted the premie.org page (as well as the ex-premie stuff). If you recall, some of the things written on the premie.org page were pretty devotional and out there and not the greatest PR for Maharaji.
It is all very fascinating, and supports the concept that MJ is really very conservative. Personally I'm somewhat relieved. He could stir up a lot of trouble if he got savvy to the internet, which I suppose he eventially will. Maybe not. I mean, I hope he's not just biding his time, like a cobra... or like Bill Gates.
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Date: Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 16:57:13 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: John K.
Subject: Re: Question
Message:
Katie, I'm shocked! spreading rumors! But you may be right about the sequence of events that lead to stopping the web site.
So, it sounds like we still really don't know why or even if M made this decree. I find it amazing that 'direct', 'clear' direction is still not given by M.
I think the followers eat it up because it adds an element of secrecy and mystery to M's actions. His actions and decisions are beyond normal human scrutiny and beyond normal human judgement. M is the master, he can do whatever he wants. It's all perfect. Why? Because 'he' is doing it. Question it, and you become a negative, skeptical element.
Yeah, I know, it's shocking. Apologies to everyone. I have the flu and am running a fever and probably shouldn't be posting. But Brian's phone call story is NOT a rumor.
I think one of the reasons M never comes out and says stuff like that and instead lets "PAM" do it is so he never has to take responsbility for things. I'm sure you've experienced how many things premies blame on DLM, the ashram premies, Maharaji's family, Bob Mishler, and any other people around Maharaji that may have been around at the time something happened. NOTHING is ever Maharaji's fault, though. I would feel a lot better about him if he took responsibility for making bad decisions once in a while.
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Date: Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 22:34:36 (EST)
Poster: Brian
Email:
To: Scott T.
Subject: Re: Question
Message:
It is all very fascinating, and supports the concept that MJ is really very conservative. Personally I'm somewhat relieved. He could stir up a lot of trouble if he got savvy to the internet, which I suppose he eventially will. Maybe not. I mean, I hope he's not just biding his time, like a cobra... or like Bill Gates.
Maharaji strikes me more as a paranoid control freak than a conservative anything. It used to be that premies gathered to together nightly to talk about their experiences with each other. Remember satsang being an activity that required active participation?
Now premies gather together to watch videos of MJ droning on about their experience. If they feel that the tape really touches something close to what they feel by proxy, then they can buy a copy for 20 dollars US (the price went up recently) and be able to be in touch with their own feelings any time that they want to view it again.
Life, truth, and peace by proxy. How sad for premies that they buy into it. How profitable for Maharaji.
Were MJ to have an actual web presence, I would link to every page as an example of the tripe that we used to swallow and how we came to view it as being "truth".
How about it, Maharaji? Let's really share this with the World!
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Date: Wed, Feb 11, 1998 at 06:18:22 (EST)
Poster: Mr Ex
Email:
To: Katie
Subject: Re: Question
Message:
That recalled me the whole rhetoric of PAM and many EV organizers: they would do ANYTHING to 'protect' maharaji!
There is some kind of feeling like m is very vulnerable.
Poor dad, he is so small, so uneducated, so ridiculous,
everybody is after him, the media are after him, so many people could sue him, etc
Nobody understands him, his love exposes him so much, he does so much for the world and there is nobody to help him beside his premies ....
bla bla
Haven't you heard this too much?
What does it mean?
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Date: Wed, Feb 11, 1998 at 12:10:35 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Mr Ex
Subject: Guilt about Maharaji (Re: Question)
Message:
That recalled me the whole rhetoric of PAM and many EV organizers: they would do ANYTHING to 'protect' maharaji!
There is some kind of feeling like m is very vulnerable.
Poor dad, he is so small, so uneducated, so ridiculous,
everybody is after him, the media are after him, so many people could sue him, etc
Nobody understands him, his love exposes him so much, he does so much for the world and there is nobody to help him beside his premies ....
bla bla
Haven't you heard this too much?
What does it mean?
I have heard premies who post on here talk this way about Maharaji. Like he needs to be protected, and like he is sacrificing himself for all of us, and that's why he needs all the expensive toys, etc. I never personally felt that way about Maharaji, either because I was brought up to feel that way about my own father, or because I never thought M was sacrificing himself for me (Maharaji always looked like he way enjoying himself to me) I do remember Jim Heller saying that he thought that if he moved out of the ashram, he would hurt Maharaji's feelings! Amazing!
There is a similar feeling among some people about Jesus. For example: if you do something wrong, you're putting one more nail in Jesus' cross, and so forth, because Jesus sacrificed himself for you. It's a big guilt trip. I would have to think that it originates from Maharaji himself.
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Date: Wed, Feb 11, 1998 at 23:44:33 (EST)
Poster: A premie
Email:
To: Katie
Subject: Re: Guilt about Maharaji (Re: Question)
Message:
That recalled me the whole rhetoric of PAM and many EV organizers: they would do ANYTHING to 'protect' maharaji!
There is some kind of feeling like m is very vulnerable.
Poor dad, he is so small, so uneducated, so ridiculous,
everybody is after him, the media are after him, so many people could sue him, etc
Nobody understands him, his love exposes him so much, he does so much for the world and there is nobody to help him beside his premies ....
bla bla
Haven't you heard this too much?
What does it mean?
I have heard premies who post on here talk this way about Maharaji. Like he needs to be protected, and like he is sacrificing himself for all of us, and that's why he needs all the expensive toys, etc. I never personally felt that way about Maharaji, either because I was brought up to feel that way about my own father, or because I never thought M was sacrificing himself for me (Maharaji always looked like he way enjoying himself to me) I do remember Jim Heller saying that he thought that if he moved out of the ashram, he would hurt Maharaji's feelings! Amazing!
There is a similar feeling among some people about Jesus. For example: if you do something wrong, you're putting one more nail in Jesus' cross, and so forth, because Jesus sacrificed himself for you. It's a big guilt trip. I would have to think that it originates from Maharaji himself.
>>I would have to think that it originates from Maharaji himself.
Katie, please recognize the difference between conjecture and fact. You draw no lines of fact to support your hypothesis. I know it's hard when everybody you're talking to agrees with everything you're saying but do try to exercise some honesty in your points.
Thanks.
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Date: Thurs, Feb 12, 1998 at 00:12:57 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: A premie
Subject: Re: Guilt about Maharaji (Re: Question)
Message:
I have heard premies who post on here talk this way about Maharaji. Like he needs to be protected, and like he is sacrificing himself for all of us, and that's why he needs all the expensive toys, etc. I never personally felt that way about Maharaji, either because I was brought up to feel that way about my own father, or because I never thought M was sacrificing himself for me (Maharaji always looked like he way enjoying himself to me) I do remember Jim Heller saying that he thought that if he moved out of the ashram, he would hurt Maharaji's feelings! Amazing!
There is a similar feeling among some people about Jesus. For example: if you do something wrong, you're putting one more nail in Jesus' cross, and so forth, because Jesus sacrificed himself for you. It's a big guilt trip. I would have to think that it originates from Maharaji himself.
"I would have to think that it originates from Maharaji himself."
Katie, please recognize the difference between conjecture and fact. You draw no lines of fact to support your hypothesis. I know it's hard when everybody you're talking to agrees with everything you're saying but do try to exercise some honesty in your points.
Thanks.
Dear "a premie" -
I said "I would have to THINK that it comes from Maharaji." which to me indicates that it IS my conjecture, NOT fact. I guess I don't understand what you think I'm saying is "fact", except the things that I have heard other premies say. It is a fact that I have heard them saying these things, but anything I have deduced from what they are saying is my conjecture. I feel that I've clearly labeled it as such in the above. Just thinking out loud, basically. I do take issue with you implying that thinking and conjecture are somehow "dishonest". I certainly don't believe so.
P.S. Everyone on here does NOT agree with what I'm saying, believe me. You're not the only premie who posts on here!
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Date: Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 04:35:24 (EST)
Poster: ex-mug
Email:
To: Everyone
Subject: Rugu
Message:
The more I think about my involvement with M from 1973 to 1994,
and the more I read the accounts of others, I am convinced
that M was always a Rugu, not a Guru.
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Date: Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 09:34:38 (EST)
Poster: Scott
Email: stalking@freewheeling.com
To: ex-mug
Subject: Re: Rugu
Message:
The more I think about my involvement with M from 1973 to 1994,
and the more I read the accounts of others, I am convinced
that M was always a Rugu, not a Guru.
ex-mug:
This kind of word game is fun and sometimes useful, but it can also be very disingenuous. Some of the radical deconstructionists hide behind these kinds of games. My point is that I don't know what you mean by "Rugu." If GMJ has it backwards... how is it backwards... and what does that mean to you and us? I enjoy the wordgames played by the deconstructionists, ala Derrida etc. Just wish they'd connect the stuff with themselves and to real life experience more often.
-Scott
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Date: Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 10:41:05 (EST)
Poster: ex-mug
Email:
To: Scott
Subject: Re: Rugu
Message:
The more I think about my involvement with M from 1973 to 1994,
and the more I read the accounts of others, I am convinced
that M was always a Rugu, not a Guru.
ex-mug:
This kind of word game is fun and sometimes useful, but it can also be very disingenuous. Some of the radical deconstructionists hide behind these kinds of games. My point is that I don't know what you mean by 'Rugu.' If GMJ has it backwards... how is it backwards... and what does that mean to you and us? I enjoy the wordgames played by the deconstructionists, ala Derrida etc. Just wish they'd connect the stuff with themselves and to real life experience more often.
-Scott
Hi Scott,
The word Gu, I belive, means darkness, and Ru , light,
thus a Guru takes a person from darkness to light.
all the best
ex-mug
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Date: Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 11:03:43 (EST)
Poster: Scott
Email:
To: ex-mug
Subject: Re: Rugu
Message:
The more I think about my involvement with M from 1973 to 1994,
and the more I read the accounts of others, I am convinced
that M was always a Rugu, not a Guru.
ex-mug:
This kind of word game is fun and sometimes useful, but it can also be very disingenuous. Some of the radical deconstructionists hide behind these kinds of games. My point is that I don't know what you mean by 'Rugu.' If GMJ has it backwards... how is it backwards... and what does that mean to you and us? I enjoy the wordgames played by the deconstructionists, ala Derrida etc. Just wish they'd connect the stuff with themselves and to real life experience more often.
-Scott
Hi Scott,
The word Gu, I belive, means darkness, and Ru , light,
thus a Guru takes a person from darkness to light.
all the best
ex-mug
ex-mug:
Very clever. It's been a long time, over twenty years, and that particular translation had slipped my mind. Thanks.
-Scott
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Date: Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 13:20:11 (EST)
Poster: lg
Email:
To: ex-mug
Subject: Re: Rugu
Message:
The more I think about my involvement with M from 1973 to 1994,
and the more I read the accounts of others, I am convinced
that M was always a Rugu, not a Guru.
In my experience while I was a premie, I learned and experienced a lot of profound stuff with M. Don't throw the baby with the bathwater! M has his faults, like all of us. Join the human race! If you recognized it was all rubbish from the start, how come it took you that long (21 years) to leave!
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Date: Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 13:32:49 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: lg
Subject: Re: Rugu
Message:
The more I think about my involvement with M from 1973 to 1994,
and the more I read the accounts of others, I am convinced
that M was always a Rugu, not a Guru.
In my experience while I was a premie, I learned and experienced a lot of profound stuff with M. Don't throw the baby with the bathwater! M has his faults, like all of us. Join the human race! If you recognized it was all rubbish from the start, how come it took you that long (21 years) to leave!
There's no question that a lot of people say that they experienced "profound stuff" around Maharaji, and many people say they didn't. I think you should consider, however, that just because you were around M when you experienced "profound stuff," that doesn't necessarily mean that M is the source of the experience you were having.
It's like having the flu and getting sick while at the same time you eat a certain kind of food. Often, people will associate their illness with that food, and not be able to eat it from then on. They associate (despite their own knowledge to the contrary) the food as the source of their illness, when in reality it had nothing to do with it.
In my experience, the profound stuff around M, to the limited extent there was any for me, was really my experience of my own faith in him. And it can be very powerful, faith that is. When I lost faith in him, I experienced zippo around him. It's a very common experience, really. Just look at Christian revivals and people so blissed out experiencing their own faith, without even a living master to peg it on.
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Date: Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 14:14:26 (EST)
Poster: lg
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: Rugu
Message:
The more I think about my involvement with M from 1973 to 1994,
and the more I read the accounts of others, I am convinced
that M was always a Rugu, not a Guru.
In my experience while I was a premie, I learned and experienced a lot of profound stuff with M. Don't throw the baby with the bathwater! M has his faults, like all of us. Join the human race! If you recognized it was all rubbish from the start, how come it took you that long (21 years) to leave!
There's no question that a lot of people say that they experienced 'profound stuff' around Maharaji, and many people say they didn't. I think you should consider, however, that just because you were around M when you experienced 'profound stuff,' that doesn't necessarily mean that M is the source of the experience you were having.
It's like having the flu and getting sick while at the same time you eat a certain kind of food. Often, people will associate their illness with that food, and not be able to eat it from then on. They associate (despite their own knowledge to the contrary) the food as the source of their illness, when in reality it had nothing to do with it.
In my experience, the profound stuff around M, to the limited extent there was any for me, was really my experience of my own faith in him. And it can be very powerful, faith that is. When I lost faith in him, I experienced zippo around him. It's a very common experience, really. Just look at Christian revivals and people so blissed out experiencing their own faith, without even a living master to peg it on.
Hi JW. - I like your posting!
I didn't think for one minute that M was the source of these experiences but perhaps the cause. Reading your message, however, answered a question I asked in a e-mail I sent you a few days ago. Thanks
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Date: Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 14:19:09 (EST)
Poster: ex-mug
Email:
To: lg
Subject: Re: Rugu
Message:
The more I think about my involvement with M from 1973 to 1994,
and the more I read the accounts of others, I am convinced
that M was always a Rugu, not a Guru.
In my experience while I was a premie, I learned and experienced a lot of profound stuff with M. Don't throw the baby with the bathwater! M has his faults, like all of us. Join the human race! If you recognized it was all rubbish from the start, how come it took you that long (21 years) to leave!
I'm glad you learned a lot of profound stuff from M.
I actually didn't get to meet the guy (apart from Darshan
lines) and looking back didn't learn a lot of profound stuff from him at all over the years. At one time I was Ashram librarian and listened to 80 or so of his 70's lectures in
an attempt to learn something profound, but found his
speaches rather mind numbingly boring.
The lived with a lot of incredible people in and out of the ashrams - this is why I stayed around for so long, not
because of GMJ.
Since having said byebye to big M, I have rejoined the human race! I would have left the cult earlier had I not been so young and gullible.
GM was being promoted as God in human form. When I signed-up
as a premie I didn't think of God as having any faults.
I was led to believe that GM was fully enlightened. When
the penny finally dropped and it was apparent that he is
most certainly not, then I left like a shot.
I am most grateful for this newsgroup, thanks everyone.
love, ex-mug
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Date: Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 14:44:39 (EST)
Poster: lg
Email:
To: ex-mug
Subject: Re: Rugu
Message:
The more I think about my involvement with M from 1973 to 1994,
and the more I read the accounts of others, I am convinced
that M was always a Rugu, not a Guru.
In my experience while I was a premie, I learned and experienced a lot of profound stuff with M. Don't throw the baby with the bathwater! M has his faults, like all of us. Join the human race! If you recognized it was all rubbish from the start, how come it took you that long (21 years) to leave!
I'm glad you learned a lot of profound stuff from M.
I actually didn't get to meet the guy (apart from Darshan
lines) and looking back didn't learn a lot of profound stuff from him at all over the years. At one time I was Ashram librarian and listened to 80 or so of his 70's lectures in
an attempt to learn something profound, but found his
speaches rather mind numbingly boring.
The lived with a lot of incredible people in and out of the ashrams - this is why I stayed around for so long, not
because of GMJ.
Since having said byebye to big M, I have rejoined the human race! I would have left the cult earlier had I not been so young and gullible.
GM was being promoted as God in human form. When I signed-up
as a premie I didn't think of God as having any faults.
I was led to believe that GM was fully enlightened. When
the penny finally dropped and it was apparent that he is
most certainly not, then I left like a shot.
I am most grateful for this newsgroup, thanks everyone.
love, ex-mug
Thanks for sharing your experience with me - ex-mug, I appreciate it.
I didn't get to meet him either... He never visited our ashram, it was too far away or too cold perhaps! I was around from 1979 - 1987 myself. We all learned from that experience. Don't we.
Love
lg
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Date: Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 15:09:06 (EST)
Poster: ex-mug
Email:
To: lg
Subject: Re: Rugu
Message:
The more I think about my involvement with M from 1973 to 1994,
and the more I read the accounts of others, I am convinced
that M was always a Rugu, not a Guru.
In my experience while I was a premie, I learned and experienced a lot of profound stuff with M. Don't throw the baby with the bathwater! M has his faults, like all of us. Join the human race! If you recognized it was all rubbish from the start, how come it took you that long (21 years) to leave!
I'm glad you learned a lot of profound stuff from M.
I actually didn't get to meet the guy (apart from Darshan
lines) and looking back didn't learn a lot of profound stuff from him at all over the years. At one time I was Ashram librarian and listened to 80 or so of his 70's lectures in
an attempt to learn something profound, but found his
speaches rather mind numbingly boring.
The lived with a lot of incredible people in and out of the ashrams - this is why I stayed around for so long, not
because of GMJ.
Since having said byebye to big M, I have rejoined the human race! I would have left the cult earlier had I not been so young and gullible.
GM was being promoted as God in human form. When I signed-up
as a premie I didn't think of God as having any faults.
I was led to believe that GM was fully enlightened. When
the penny finally dropped and it was apparent that he is
most certainly not, then I left like a shot.
I am most grateful for this newsgroup, thanks everyone.
love, ex-mug
Thanks for sharing your experience with me - ex-mug, I appreciate it.
I didn't get to meet him either... He never visited our ashram, it was too far away or too cold perhaps! I was around from 1979 - 1987 myself. We all learned from that experience. Don't we.
Love
lg
lg
When I think of the incredible people with whome I shared
so many good times with in the ashram and out (in spite
of a very remote GM)I wonder how many of them are still
involved with GM's cult.
Some I know are no longer involved.
Anyhow, I have found this newsgroup with another gathering
of incredible people who have the courage to share in the way that they do.
I now take the opportunity to formally tell GM to get stuffed, to get off his high horse and own-up to the fact that he is , and has been leaching off of his followers for many years, simply to maintain an incredibly expensive life-style.
How bloody obnoxious! And he is still at it.
I'm sure the IRS will catch him out one day (they got Al Capone!)
all the best
ex-mug
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Date: Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 16:14:08 (EST)
Poster: lg
Email:
To: ex-mug
Subject: Re: Rugu
Message:
The more I think about my involvement with M from 1973 to 1994,
and the more I read the accounts of others, I am convinced
that M was always a Rugu, not a Guru.
In my experience while I was a premie, I learned and experienced a lot of profound stuff with M. Don't throw the baby with the bathwater! M has his faults, like all of us. Join the human race! If you recognized it was all rubbish from the start, how come it took you that long (21 years) to leave!
I'm glad you learned a lot of profound stuff from M.
I actually didn't get to meet the guy (apart from Darshan
lines) and looking back didn't learn a lot of profound stuff from him at all over the years. At one time I was Ashram librarian and listened to 80 or so of his 70's lectures in
an attempt to learn something profound, but found his
speaches rather mind numbingly boring.
The lived with a lot of incredible people in and out of the ashrams - this is why I stayed around for so long, not
because of GMJ.
Since having said byebye to big M, I have rejoined the human race! I would have left the cult earlier had I not been so young and gullible.
GM was being promoted as God in human form. When I signed-up
as a premie I didn't think of God as having any faults.
I was led to believe that GM was fully enlightened. When
the penny finally dropped and it was apparent that he is
most certainly not, then I left like a shot.
I am most grateful for this newsgroup, thanks everyone.
love, ex-mug
Thanks for sharing your experience with me - ex-mug, I appreciate it.
I didn't get to meet him either... He never visited our ashram, it was too far away or too cold perhaps! I was around from 1979 - 1987 myself. We all learned from that experience. Don't we.
Love
lg
lg
When I think of the incredible people with whome I shared
so many good times with in the ashram and out (in spite
of a very remote GM)I wonder how many of them are still
involved with GM's cult.
Some I know are no longer involved.
Anyhow, I have found this newsgroup with another gathering
of incredible people who have the courage to share in the way that they do.
I now take the opportunity to formally tell GM to get stuffed, to get off his high horse and own-up to the fact that he is , and has been leaching off of his followers for many years, simply to maintain an incredibly expensive life-style.
How bloody obnoxious! And he is still at it.
I'm sure the IRS will catch him out one day (they got Al Capone!)
all the best
ex-mug
I agree with you 100%. And the sad part (eventhough he introduced me to my inner self) is that he is deceiving people along the way. I feel angry, frustrated and sad about that. Later, I have found some "spiritual" books giving the same or better teachings, but much more comprehensive.
(Excuse my english - it is not my mother tong)
lg
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Date: Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 17:35:51 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: lg
Subject: Re: Rugu
Message:
The more I think about my involvement with M from 1973 to 1994,
and the more I read the accounts of others, I am convinced
that M was always a Rugu, not a Guru.
In my experience while I was a premie, I learned and experienced a lot of profound stuff with M. Don't throw the baby with the bathwater! M has his faults, like all of us. Join the human race! If you recognized it was all rubbish from the start, how come it took you that long (21 years) to leave!
There's no question that a lot of people say that they experienced 'profound stuff' around Maharaji, and many people say they didn't. I think you should consider, however, that just because you were around M when you experienced 'profound stuff,' that doesn't necessarily mean that M is the source of the experience you were having.
It's like having the flu and getting sick while at the same time you eat a certain kind of food. Often, people will associate their illness with that food, and not be able to eat it from then on. They associate (despite their own knowledge to the contrary) the food as the source of their illness, when in reality it had nothing to do with it.
In my experience, the profound stuff around M, to the limited extent there was any for me, was really my experience of my own faith in him. And it can be very powerful, faith that is. When I lost faith in him, I experienced zippo around him. It's a very common experience, really. Just look at Christian revivals and people so blissed out experiencing their own faith, without even a living master to peg it on.
Hi JW. - I like your posting!
I didn't think for one minute that M was the source of these experiences but perhaps the cause. Reading your message, however, answered a question I asked in a e-mail I sent you a few days ago. Thanks
Sorry, can you explain how you see "source" and "cause" as different things? Frankly, I don't think he's either the "source" or the "cause." In my experience I was both the source and the cause of my experience, M was just someone I had faith in, mostly because I wanted so much for it to be true that he was god incarnate.
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Date: Mon, Feb 9, 1998 at 23:13:40 (EST)
Poster: Steve A
Email:
To: Everyone
Subject: Who are the real Premies
Message:
We were always told that Premies were so called because they were "lovers of truth". Is it not ironic that we are designated in this forum to be ex-premies or ex lovers of truth. Are we not by our very actions and discussions here in pursuit of the real truth?. Have not our experiences made us even more passionate about finding the true purpose of existence.
Whether or not we are aware of it I feel that our communications here help countless people examine their feelings about GMJ and EV. If we cannot help people examine their own hearts and heads we have done nothing to stop them from going through the same pain we had to endure.
If there are any so called Premie's reading this I would simply ask, search your own feelings and question, "does what I am doing feel right?", "does what I believe in feel in any way wrong or contradict what I know to be true", and at the end of it if you find you don't know who or what to believe in, trust that your conscience and intuition will always remain true to you.
Please forgive me, I didn't want to sound like a preacher it just came out that way.
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Date: Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 01:07:12 (EST)
Poster: Diver Dan
Email: crothfam@idirect.com
To: Steve A
Subject: Re: Who are the real Premies
Message:
Keep the name "EX"PREMIE forum it seems very apprapo or how about "The DARK Zone" or even the X-files , sorry that one has already been used. Are you all ex lovers I think not! Ex-Devotees Yes! Definitley! But try and remember Maharaji brought love into all of our hearts or none of you would be here today(in more ways than one).The JSCA equation ...... there is a profound absence of bliss around here! What? Did you all fall off your barrogons one to many times.Lighten up find the peace and stop crying over the pieces Why did you all start on the journey was it to come to an end or to enjoy the journey ! You've forgotten the word don"t forget the purpose and why we ARE! Love life Live life and don't regret be Thankful !
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Date: Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 02:26:29 (EST)
Poster: Steve A
Email:
To: Diver Dan
Subject: Re: Who are the real Premies
Message:
Dear Diver Dan
Ex-Devotees definately, but I beg to differ, it was not Maharaji that brought love into my heart, love springs from within and for me I have never been happier in my life than I am now. If EV is giving you that love and bliss unconditionally then I am happy for you.
Yes there are many people here who have had bitter and in some cases trajic experiences with Maharji and EV, I pray that you will not, but if you do we will be here for you.
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Date: Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 14:49:59 (EST)
Poster: ex-mug
Email:
To: Diver Dan
Subject: Re: Who are the real Premies
Message:
Keep the name 'EX'PREMIE forum it seems very apprapo or how about 'The DARK Zone' or even the X-files , sorry that one has already been used. Are you all ex lovers I think not! Ex-Devotees Yes! Definitley! But try and remember Maharaji brought love into all of our hearts or none of you would be here today(in more ways than one).The JSCA equation ...... there is a profound absence of bliss around here! What? Did you all fall off your barrogons one to many times.Lighten up find the peace and stop crying over the pieces Why did you all start on the journey was it to come to an end or to enjoy the journey ! You've forgotten the word don't forget the purpose and why we ARE! Love life Live life and don't regret be Thankful !
Diver Dan,
Only God bought love to my heart. GM had nothing to do with it.
all the best
ex-mug
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Date: Wed, Feb 11, 1998 at 23:56:57 (EST)
Poster: A premie
Email:
To: Steve A
Subject: Re: Who are the real Premies
Message:
We were always told that Premies were so called because they were 'lovers of truth'. Is it not ironic that we are designated in this forum to be ex-premies or ex lovers of truth. Are we not by our very actions and discussions here in pursuit of the real truth?. Have not our experiences made us even more passionate about finding the true purpose of existence.
Whether or not we are aware of it I feel that our communications here help countless people examine their feelings about GMJ and EV. If we cannot help people examine their own hearts and heads we have done nothing to stop them from going through the same pain we had to endure.
If there are any so called Premie's reading this I would simply ask, search your own feelings and question, 'does what I am doing feel right?', 'does what I believe in feel in any way wrong or contradict what I know to be true', and at the end of it if you find you don't know who or what to believe in, trust that your conscience and intuition will always remain true to you.
Please forgive me, I didn't want to sound like a preacher it just came out that way.
You did sound like a preacher but that's OK.
If you are truely a seeker of truth you must be open to the possibility that when one does "search (their) own feelings and question...", one may just find that it feels great.
You see Steve, you have to be open to that possibility without bringing out from your hip pocket doubt about one's ability to trust their own process because they are a "premie" (which is the argument many of you use when the response is a positive one).
Hey, keep trying Steve. You may actually convince somebody if they're the kind that takes to being preached at.
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Date: Mon, Feb 9, 1998 at 20:48:24 (EST)
Poster: Sir David
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: Bill & everyone
Subject: A Father & His children
Message:
I've put this up here Bill so you won't miss it. I guess I'm aware that He knows what I'm thinking and doing all the time so I just talk to Him in my head. Like well thanks for showing me that or I feel a lot better about things now or why oh why did this happen God?
I am always asking Him for help and I sought the most help from Him when I finally realised that He wasn't Maharaji. I had a sense of real freedom then, after the initial pain. So I don't have to do all of THAT then God, wow, thanks for showing me and thanks for loving me. One of the most remarkable things he has shown me is that the whole of the Hindu religion and it's teachings are totally false. They are so far off the mark and I've thanked Him over and over for showing me that.
Now I can meditate without any fear or hassle. If I don't meditate, it's not a problem either. He doesn't judge me at all. Maharaji talks a load of crap. Because Hinduism is crap. We are growing eternally as God's children and He is also growing eternally as our Father. He loves us more than we realise. He holds us closer than we realise. He knows we love the people in our lives and it's supposed to be that way.
He is all love. Where love is, He is there. We don't have to do this Hindu merging trip because we are already merged with Him and always will be. As He grows so will we. He will always be our loving Father and will always hold us deep within His love. He has got us to love and that will last forever. We will grow in love with Him and He with us. It is an eternal love story.
My six year old daughter, Jasmine, told me at Christmas that Jesus, Mary and Joseph were special. I told her that we're all special because God loves us all and made us so He could love us. Like she's special to me because her mummy and I made her so we could love her. She understands this. That is the essence of it all.
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Date: Mon, Feb 9, 1998 at 19:31:22 (EST)
Poster: Selena
Email:
To: Everyone
Subject: Homer Simpson and Realization
Message:
I caught the Simpsons last night. Homer joins a religious cult. Too many coinciences. Or, as they say, there ARE no coincidences. Anybody see it?
How about the hanger, with the mother ship that isn't really a ship? and the best, the Rolls Royce drive bys' whilstthe meek toil in the fields? Too Good!! They must know.
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Date: Mon, Feb 9, 1998 at 22:40:26 (EST)
Poster: Scott Talkington
Email: stalking@freewheeling.com
To: Selena
Subject: Re: Homer Simpson and Realization
Message:
Selena:
Saw part of the Simpson episode. There's a point in the Mishler interview where he expreses the opinion that American society is in no real danger from people like Mamaraj Ji. Sometimes Americans get defensive and a little ugly about this stuff, but the Simpson episode reprents the best of the American irreverence.
We have a culture that is anti-authoritarian and puritanical at the same time. The downside of that tension is expressed very well in Miller's "The Crucible." We are in turns fanatical believers and fanatical disbelievers. There's got to be humor in that.
-Scott
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Date: Mon, Feb 9, 1998 at 23:12:17 (EST)
Poster: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net
To: Selena
Subject: Re: Homer Simpson and Realization
Message:
I enjoyed last night's episode, especially the sudden attacks of devotion: "I love the Leader!!" which seemed to hit everyone when approached by the movement's thugs. I felt that it was quite accurate in its portrayal of the cult mindset.
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Date: Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 13:33:11 (EST)
Poster: Selena
Email:
To: everyone
Subject: Re: Homer Simpson and Realization
Message:
You'd think you'd hear the brain fart thing on a cartoon instead of a public program. Then again, the writers for the simpsons are much classier than that.
Not only did M say it in public at the LB event but I am pretty sure he did last year as well.
It's all so funny in some ways. All this religiosity and then he spills something like that. The premies found it quite amusing when he said it. He went on and on about it too.... I'd elaboraate but, well.... only if people insist.
:)
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Date: Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 17:02:47 (EST)
Poster: Marge and
Email: **
To: Selena
Subject: Homer Simpson and Realization (Re: Homer Simpson and Realization)
Message:
we insist!
If you want to.
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Date: Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 17:19:45 (EST)
Poster: Selena
Email:
To: Marge and
Subject: Re: Homer Simpson and Realization
Message:
we insist!
If you want to.
You mean "only if I want to, by the grace" ?
well,er, it's more like South Park than the Simpsons, but he said something about at least with a real one you can tell right away by the smell what it is, but with a mind one sometimes it takes a while of listening
Then there was some other witty comment about at least with a real one you can open a window..
Shucks, guys I just ain't as funny as he was. I guess you had to be here, no no I take it back - be glad you weren't!!
Guess mass hysteria has it's place, it makes even the lamest witticisms seem funny at the time.
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Date: Mon, Feb 9, 1998 at 17:46:23 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email: joger02@aol.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Devotion Quotes
Message:
The thread below about devotion got me thinking about how often Guru Maharaj Ji used to talk about it. In fact, he talked about it (devotion to him) as being much more important than knowledge or practicing knowledge.
I just saw a copy of a Divine Times from 1979. In it is a satsang Maharaji gave on Christmas Day in 1979. There is a picture in the issue, and I can see myself sitting in the hall. It was in Miami at DECA, that place where the premies were converting a Boeing 707 for his personal, luxurious use. There are probably about 100 people in the hall. Before coming to speak, we were told by PAM how pleased M was that we had stayed with our "real" family, and didn't go visit our "other" families for the holidays.
Anyway, here are a few quotes from that satsang entitled "Be A Devotee" dated 12/25/79: [Sorry about the repitition, but, as we know, that's the way the guy speaks.]
"And the only reason of existence then is to be a devotee. And the only thing that ever happens is devotion.
If we just surrender ourselves to Guru Maharaj Ji, if we surrender ourselves to that experience, if we just become a devotee and have devotion, that's all that's needed.
And it becomes the same thing for us. We'll be driven completely insane, we'll be driven completely mad, by this world. And only if we focus completely on one thing and that's devotion, because that's the only thing a devotee can accomplish in this world. There is nothing else a person can accomplish. There is nothing else a a human being can in fact accomplish. There is nothing else a human being can in fact accomplish in this world. He cannot become a professor. That's fake. And you cannot become a doctor. That's fake.
It's like, experience, experience, experience, experience, and it's a very well used word sometimes. To experience this, to experience that. But truly the word experience--there's only one thing we CAN experience. And that's devotion for Guru Maharaj Ji.
But truly what makes the difference for that devotee is that flowing devotion. A devotee will follow their Guru Maharaj Ji wherever Guru Maharaj Ji goes and not be involved in anything else.
But when we become just that humble devotee, whose reason to live, whose reason for existence is because he is a devotee of Guru Maharaj Ji, because he is devoted; he experiences devotion. That's his reason to live. That's his purpose to live. And keep on having that experience, and to be completely surrendered to Guru Maharaj Ji -- and as long as Guru Maharaj Ji will give him that experience he's accepting it.
And when we become a devotee, only then are we even capable or receiving that Grace. And the ones who deserve it get it. When those devotees, those beings who have recognized their Guru Maharaj Ji, those beings. And once I was just reading that statement of Kabirdas. And he says, "People who consider Guru Maharaj Ji something else are definitely bound to hell." There's no and's, if's an and but's about it.
[Sorry, can't go on. I'm getting nauseous. He goes on to say that Christmas misses the point that Christ revealed the same knowledge that that Christ came into the world for "this Knowledge, that love, that devotion -- that's all that happened."]
So, fellow ex's, since we consider Maharaji "something else", are we "definitely bound to hell, "no if's, and's or but's about it?"
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Date: Mon, Feb 9, 1998 at 18:35:01 (EST)
Poster: Selena
Email:
To: everyone
Subject: Re: Devotion Quotes vs. Brain Farts (Re: Devotion Quotes)
Message:
I can't believe I forgot the other gem from my visit to Long Beach. It seems M is fond of calling people's thoughts from the evil mind "brain farts" these days.
Reading your quotes from Divine Times made me think of it, not in the way he'd like I am sure, but it sort of shows the absoluteness. God, how wonderful , everytime someone does something you find uncomfortable or against the great devotional philosoply, oh well, they just had a brain fart.
Scary isn't it?
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Date: Mon, Feb 9, 1998 at 19:29:05 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email:
To: Selena
Subject: Re: Devotion Quotes vs. Brain Farts (Re: Devotion Quotes)
Message:
I can't believe I forgot the other gem from my visit to Long Beach. It seems M is fond of calling people's thoughts from the evil mind 'brain farts' these days.
Reading your quotes from Divine Times made me think of it, not in the way he'd like I am sure, but it sort of shows the absoluteness. God, how wonderful , everytime someone does something you find uncomfortable or against the great devotional philosoply, oh well, they just had a brain fart.
Scary isn't it?
I can't believe Maharaji is saying things like "brain farts" at programs! It would be extremely funny if people weren't into it. The guy is 40 years old, after all. When you wrote "it sort of shows the absoluteness", I mistook the word "absoluteness" for "adolescence" (really!).
Wonder what TV show he got that phrase from?
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Date: Mon, Feb 9, 1998 at 22:04:03 (EST)
Poster: John K.
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: Devotion Quotes
Message:
Warning - the following material is rated N for negative so be forewarned!!
Wow! Say it aint so, Joe. Tell me I didn't really believe in this guy for so many years!
One reaction I have is that these quotes are really depressing to me. It's scary how absolutely nonsensical they are.
'The only thing we can experience is devotion to Guru Maharaj Ji"
Huh? Come again?
Yet, I can't tell you how happy I am about it, that is, that I simply cannot relate to this kind of talk, at the same time it is very sobering to me to read this stuff because I clearly remember that I used to be the devotee sitting there lapping it up.
In fact I think I remember listening in wash. d.c. via phone feed to that satsang.
The whole feeling comes back to me. The whole goal of sitting in satsang is to become mindless. To not judge, to not evaluate. To not think. To simply soak it in.
Now, deep in my consciousness I simply reject that whole notion now. I don't enjoy just sitting there and being a sponge. I am a human being. I have a mind. I have capability to evaluate. I think. I think about what is said. I understand. I don't understand. That's what I do. To deny myself my thoughts is to deny who I am. Don't tell me I cannot judge or evaluate what I am hearing. I question, I filter, I approve, I disapprove. That's what we are supposed to do as humans.
The whole premise of satsang is so bogus! That we cannot trust what we ourselves think about things.
Did he really say we are bound to hell?
Gee, I'm really scared!
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Date: Mon, Feb 9, 1998 at 22:28:32 (EST)
Poster: de
Email: bb
To: JW
Subject: ca (Re: Devotion Quotes)
Message:
Hi JW
I am in that photo too.
close to the stage center.
I considered that speech his culmination of the devotional era speeches. Because he didn't stray to far from the
topic during the whole talk. Usually he would just hit
the subject of devotion a few times a speech.
Talks like that made people like OP and me stuck for
life. Tough to overcome the programming if you really
ate it at one point. Expessialy since he won't let up.
He can't. His ego. his money source. His whole world
is built on it. He knows he isn't anywhere but he can
get the sheep bleating easy enough so why change?
got to go.
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Date: Mon, Feb 9, 1998 at 23:41:51 (EST)
Poster: Jw
Email:
To: de
Subject: Re: Devotion Quotes
Message:
Hi JW
I am in that photo too.
close to the stage center.
I considered that speech his culmination of the devotional era speeches. Because he didn't stray to far from the
topic during the whole talk. Usually he would just hit
the subject of devotion a few times a speech.
Talks like that made people like OP and me stuck for
life. Tough to overcome the programming if you really
ate it at one point. Expessialy since he won't let up.
He can't. His ego. his money source. His whole world
is built on it. He knows he isn't anywhere but he can
get the sheep bleating easy enough so why change?
got to go.
Hi, Burke:
In the photo, I'm sitting right in the center as well. Maybe I was sitting next to you. I don't recall your name, but it was a long time ago.
You know, Burke. I'm impressed at how you actually LISTENED to what M said. I think I was more like John and just tried to suspend my thought processes and soak in the boring crap he said. It was the only way I could do it. I do recall certain lines the were especially awful, or scary, or stupid, but mostly I never analyzed what he actually said, until now. In fact, I remember sitting in that satsang on Christmas day, but if you asked me now, I wouldn't have remembered anything he said, except I remember the "stay with you real family" comment.
I think this satsang is interesting, because he dispells that revisionist notion, now espoused by premies, that all M was ever about was an internal experience and the practice of meditation. This satsang proves that wasn't true.
I also have quotes from Hans Jayanti 1979, but they are even worse. Maybe I'll get the stomach to post some of that later.
JW
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Date: Mon, Feb 9, 1998 at 23:53:36 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: John K.
Subject: Re: Devotion Quotes
Message:
Warning - the following material is rated N for negative so be forewarned!!
Wow! Say it aint so, Joe. Tell me I didn't really believe in this guy for so many years!
One reaction I have is that these quotes are really depressing to me. It's scary how absolutely nonsensical they are.
'The only thing we can experience is devotion to Guru Maharaj Ji'
Huh? Come again?
Yet, I can't tell you how happy I am about it, that is, that I simply cannot relate to this kind of talk, at the same time it is very sobering to me to read this stuff because I clearly remember that I used to be the devotee sitting there lapping it up.
In fact I think I remember listening in wash. d.c. via phone feed to that satsang.
The whole feeling comes back to me. The whole goal of sitting in satsang is to become mindless. To not judge, to not evaluate. To not think. To simply soak it in.
Now, deep in my consciousness I simply reject that whole notion now. I don't enjoy just sitting there and being a sponge. I am a human being. I have a mind. I have capability to evaluate. I think. I think about what is said. I understand. I don't understand. That's what I do. To deny myself my thoughts is to deny who I am. Don't tell me I cannot judge or evaluate what I am hearing. I question, I filter, I approve, I disapprove. That's what we are supposed to do as humans.
The whole premise of satsang is so bogus! That we cannot trust what we ourselves think about things.
Did he really say we are bound to hell?
Gee, I'm really scared!
Amazing, isn't it? As I said to Burke, I don't recall him saying any of that and I was sitting in the room at the time he said it. But I think I just suspended my thinking and let it waft over me, just like I did most of the time he was speaking, because it never made much sense.
Nevertheless, this is a period when Maharaji hardly even spoke about meditation or even knowledge. It was all devotion, devotion, surrender, surrender. In light of this, how can premies be so revisionist and say that all he ever talked about was just an "experience inside?"
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Date: Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 05:19:17 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: Selena
Subject: Re: Devotion Quotes vs. Brain Farts (Re: Devotion Quotes)
Message:
I can't believe I forgot the other gem from my visit to Long Beach. It seems M is fond of calling people's thoughts from the evil mind 'brain farts' these days.
Reading your quotes from Divine Times made me think of it, not in the way he'd like I am sure, but it sort of shows the absoluteness. God, how wonderful , everytime someone does something you find uncomfortable or against the great devotional philosoply, oh well, they just had a brain fart.
Scary isn't it?
Did Maharaji use the term "brain farts" right in the Long Beach program, or did you just hear that he was saying that? Typical of him. I don't suppose he wants to use the word "mind" anymore as equivalent to the devil like he always used to. I suppose nowadays he says you should "follow your heart" instead. But I think he's missing that if you are going to get that inane, there is such a thing as a "heart fart" as well.
And as you say, just labeling independent, critical thought something negative, like "mind" or "brain farts" is the method he uses and always used to try to deflect any judgment or analysis of how, greedy, stupid, inane, destructive, egotistical, uncarring, fake and fear-ridden, he and his cult really are.
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Date: Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 06:14:17 (EST)
Poster: Mr Ex
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: Devotion Quotes vs. Brain Farts (Re: Devotion Quotes)
Message:
As far as I know, the first time m used to speak about
brain farts was during meetings with EV organizers.
Those people who are supposed to help him to the
best of their capabilities, using their intelligence.
And what does he say when you serve him
wholeheartedly, as well as you can?
That you have brain farts, and that it’s polluting the
universe.
So much for your devotion.
I finally decided that I wasn’t an idiot and that nobody
has any right to treat me like this.
Specially a so-called loving guru.
One of the reasons I left.
Maybe I’m not the best person
Maybe I’ve done mistakes
But
Nobody has any right to treat me like this.
The hell with him, and I mean it.
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Date: Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 07:13:38 (EST)
Poster: Brian
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: Devotion Quotes
Message:
I was just reading that same issue yesterday at work and was fascinated by his words. I'm off to become a devotee now...
Seriously, there was also a great account of his first trip to the West. Holding First Class airline tickets, he wandered to the back of the plane on every flight because in India there is was no First Class section. Everyone sat wherever they wanted in the "slums" - as he put it. Curious how his viewpoint changed to the point that he couldn't even share First Class with other passengers later. The mission would buy up the whole section.
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Date: Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 09:33:40 (EST)
Poster: Mr Ex
Email:
To: Brian
Subject: Recent quotes? (Re: Devotion Quotes)
Message:
Hi Joe,
I could transcript exactly the same kind of BS from a very recent
satsang (1997).
Are you interested (Brian?) to have it on the web-site?
Just to show that nothing has changed since the 70s :
only some cosmetic changes, like
- DLM’s name changed to EV
- devotion as what’s still required
- darshan to ‘pay respect’ (no pranam anymore)
- no Krishna sitting on a throne, but rather a simple human being sitting on a
crazy stage (picture of Long Beach stage)
Maybe we could list the items we’d like to illustrate with very recent quotes.
Otherwise I won’t lose an hour to do that.
Maybe we’ll get some explanations from Ros Sutton, how EV is only a meditation school and how we misunderstand Maharaji’s word altogether.
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Date: Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 10:38:59 (EST)
Poster: Selena
Email:
To: everyone
Subject: Re: Devotion Quotes vs. Brain Farts (Re: Devotion Quotes)
Message:
Yes, all, I am afraid it is true, he used the term
right up there in public on his throne, whoops
scuse me, chair.
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Date: Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 15:38:56 (EST)
Poster: VP
Email:
To: Everyone
Subject: Re: Devotion Quotes
Message:
Also rated N: Better bound to hell than bound to a lifeless life. It sounds like GMJ only wants you to sit around and devote and vegetate. (When you aren't guarding cheese). You may as well be dead. Well, no thanks! There's too much to do and to enjoy in this life.
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Date: Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 16:18:33 (EST)
Poster: John Cavad
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: Devotion Quotes
Message:
GMJ claims to love unconditionally; but unless one surrenders to him totally obeying all his rules, he loses interest. It;s one thing to put aside self-interest as a natural expression of care within a living context; it's another to be expected to do so as proof of love.
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Date: Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 23:00:22 (EST)
Poster: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net
To: Mr Ex
Subject: Re: Recent quotes? (Re: Devotion Quotes)
Message:
Mr. Ex wrote: "Maybe we’ll get some explanations from Ros Sutton, how EV is only a meditation school and how we misunderstand Maharaji’s word altogether."
I remember that I use to refer to DLM as a "meditation society" after I left because I just didn't want to admit to anyone that I had spent five years in a cult!
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Date: Wed, Feb 11, 1998 at 22:09:16 (EST)
Poster: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Mr Ex
Subject: Re: Recent quotes? (Re: Devotion Quotes)
Message:
I could transcript exactly the same kind of BS from a very recent satsang (1997). Are you interested (Brian?) to have it on the web-site? Just to show that nothing has changed since the 70s : only some cosmetic changes, like
- DLM’s name changed to EV
- devotion as what’s still required
- darshan to ‘pay respect’ (no pranam anymore)
- no Krishna sitting on a throne, but rather a simple human being sitting on a crazy stage (picture of Long Beach stage)
Absolutely I'm interested. BTW, whenever you see me not resonding to something in a post here that is directed at me, it's because I didn't read that one. My online time available to read has dropped drastically since taking over the site. I pick and choose according to the topic now and miss a lot.
I always respond to email though (one of the reasons that I don't get to read as much here). I can be reached at brian@ex-premie.org anytime :)
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