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Ex-Premie.Org |
Forum II Archive #
5 |
From:
Feb 4, 1998 |
To:
Feb 13, 1998 |
Page:
4
Of:
5 |
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Seymour -:- Where are we now? -:- Sat, Feb 7, 1998 at 07:28:15 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: Where are we now? -:- Sat, Feb 7, 1998 at 11:53:21 (EST)
___seymour -:- Re: Where are we now? -:- Sun, Feb 8, 1998 at 05:51:14 (EST)
___sorry mom, -:- but I'm god -:- Sun, Feb 8, 1998 at 07:56:53 (EST)
___seymour -:- Re: but I'm god -:- Sun, Feb 8, 1998 at 09:25:08 (EST)
___Selena -:- Re: but I'm god -:- Mon, Feb 9, 1998 at 12:02:01 (EST)
Mili -:- The Heart -:- Sat, Feb 7, 1998 at 04:02:00 (EST)
___Joy -:- Re: The Heart -:- Sat, Feb 7, 1998 at 13:24:28 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: The Heart -:- Sun, Feb 8, 1998 at 04:49:38 (EST)
___Anon -:- Re: The Heart -:- Sun, Feb 8, 1998 at 05:58:54 (EST)
___Anon -:- Re: The Heart -:- Sun, Feb 8, 1998 at 06:09:52 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: The Heart -:- Sun, Feb 8, 1998 at 08:39:29 (EST)
Mili -:- Social Harmony? -:- Sat, Feb 7, 1998 at 03:26:51 (EST)
___For -:- Milificent -:- Sat, Feb 7, 1998 at 09:46:46 (EST)
___VP -:- Re: Social Harmony? -:- Sat, Feb 7, 1998 at 09:59:16 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: Milificent -:- Sat, Feb 7, 1998 at 10:19:40 (EST)
___St. -:- Milificent -:- Sat, Feb 7, 1998 at 10:57:19 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: Social Harmony? -:- Sat, Feb 7, 1998 at 12:29:39 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: Social Harmony? -:- Sun, Feb 8, 1998 at 05:14:32 (EST)
___living -:- close up -:- Sun, Feb 8, 1998 at 06:55:08 (EST)
___VP -:- negativity, again -:- Sun, Feb 8, 1998 at 08:55:04 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: negativity, again -:- Sun, Feb 8, 1998 at 09:02:40 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: Social Harmony? -:- Sun, Feb 8, 1998 at 19:16:40 (EST)
___Brian -:- Re: Milificent -:- Mon, Feb 9, 1998 at 23:05:57 (EST)
___op -:- Re: Milificent -:- Wed, Feb 11, 1998 at 00:47:38 (EST)
Diver Dan -:- Ann Johnson aka Annabanna -:- Fri, Feb 6, 1998 at 21:38:05 (EST)
___* adios -:- amigo -:- Fri, Feb 6, 1998 at 23:22:04 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: Ann Johnson aka Annabanna -:- Sat, Feb 7, 1998 at 00:28:50 (EST)
anon premie -:- brainwave analysisT -:- Fri, Feb 6, 1998 at 20:27:04 (EST)
___Anon -:- Re: brainwave analysisT -:- Fri, Feb 6, 1998 at 20:39:53 (EST)
___John K. -:- Re: brainwave analysisT -:- Fri, Feb 6, 1998 at 20:41:39 (EST)
___Sir David -:- Re: brainwave analysisT -:- Fri, Feb 6, 1998 at 22:02:45 (EST)
___me -:- Re: brainwave analysisT -:- Fri, Feb 6, 1998 at 23:11:19 (EST)
___overendorphed premie -:- Re: brainwave analysisT -:- Fri, Feb 6, 1998 at 23:33:09 (EST)
___lg -:- Re: brainwave analysisT -:- Sat, Feb 7, 1998 at 09:21:33 (EST)
StephenB -:- Proposal for Chat Room -:- Fri, Feb 6, 1998 at 20:05:47 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: Proposal for Chat Room -:- Fri, Feb 6, 1998 at 20:35:30 (EST)
___John K. -:- Re: Proposal for Chat Room -:- Fri, Feb 6, 1998 at 20:45:30 (EST)
___Sir David -:- Re: Proposal for Chat Room -:- Fri, Feb 6, 1998 at 22:29:00 (EST)
___StephenB -:- Re: Proposal for Chat Room -:- Sat, Feb 7, 1998 at 15:48:52 (EST)
___StephenB -:- John-Why it's different -:- Sat, Feb 7, 1998 at 15:52:46 (EST)
___StephenB -:- Thanks for the response -:- Sat, Feb 7, 1998 at 15:54:01 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: I hope you keep posting -:- Sun, Feb 8, 1998 at 03:31:13 (EST)
___Sir David -:- Re: Proposal for Chat Room -:- Sun, Feb 8, 1998 at 12:31:34 (EST)
Rick -:- Jagdeo -:- Fri, Feb 6, 1998 at 14:19:13 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: Jagdeo -:- Fri, Feb 6, 1998 at 15:19:49 (EST)
___Rick -:- Re: Jagdeo -:- Fri, Feb 6, 1998 at 15:49:14 (EST)
___Sir David -:- Re: Jagdeo -:- Fri, Feb 6, 1998 at 17:05:23 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: Jagdeo -:- Fri, Feb 6, 1998 at 17:13:58 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: Jagdeo -:- Fri, Feb 6, 1998 at 20:49:53 (EST)
___Sir David -:- Re: Jagdeo -:- Fri, Feb 6, 1998 at 21:48:07 (EST)
___VP -:- Re: Jagdeo -:- Fri, Feb 6, 1998 at 23:38:32 (EST)
___Joy -:- Re: Jagdeo -:- Sat, Feb 7, 1998 at 00:31:00 (EST)
___Mr Ex -:- Re: Jagdeo -:- Sat, Feb 7, 1998 at 05:59:50 (EST)
___Sir David -:- Re: Jagdeo -:- Sat, Feb 7, 1998 at 10:39:46 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: Jagdeo -:- Sat, Feb 7, 1998 at 11:38:22 (EST)
___Sir David -:- Re: Jagdeo -:- Sat, Feb 7, 1998 at 11:59:06 (EST)
___Joy -:- Re: Jagdeo -:- Sat, Feb 7, 1998 at 12:58:35 (EST)
___Mr Ex -:- Instructors raping premies? -:- Mon, Feb 9, 1998 at 10:52:50 (EST)
___Mr Ex -:- Re: Jagdeo -:- Mon, Feb 9, 1998 at 12:10:43 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: Instructors raping premies? -:- Mon, Feb 9, 1998 at 13:14:57 (EST)
___Mr Ex -:- Re: Instructors raping premies? -:- Mon, Feb 9, 1998 at 13:38:20 (EST)
___VP -:- Re: Instructors raping premies? -:- Mon, Feb 9, 1998 at 16:25:48 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: Instructors raping premies? -:- Mon, Feb 9, 1998 at 18:07:43 (EST)
___Mr Ex -:- Re: Instructors raping premies? -:- Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 06:16:45 (EST)
___VP -:- Re: Instructors raping premies? -:- Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 19:41:08 (EST)
Selena -:- prmie kids beoming premies -:- Fri, Feb 6, 1998 at 11:37:30 (EST)
___Mr Ex -:- Re: prmie kids beoming premies -:- Fri, Feb 6, 1998 at 11:46:29 (EST)
___VP -:- Re: prmie kids beoming premies -:- Fri, Feb 6, 1998 at 15:17:41 (EST)
___Seymour -:- Re: prmie kids beoming premies -:- Sat, Feb 7, 1998 at 07:22:15 (EST)
bongo -:- happy premie -:- Thurs, Feb 5, 1998 at 21:44:44 (EST)
___lover of whom? -:- lover of a fiction. -:- Thurs, Feb 5, 1998 at 22:11:23 (EST)
___Sir David -:- Re: lover of a fiction. -:- Fri, Feb 6, 1998 at 00:26:09 (EST)
___Mickey the Pharisee -:- Re: happy premie -:- Fri, Feb 6, 1998 at 01:11:40 (EST)
___G -:- Re: lover of a fiction. -:- Fri, Feb 6, 1998 at 01:12:15 (EST)
___John K. -:- Re: lover of a fiction. -:- Fri, Feb 6, 1998 at 10:19:56 (EST)
___Hello -:- Sir David -:- Fri, Feb 6, 1998 at 10:27:51 (EST)
___Hello there -:- CD -:- Fri, Feb 6, 1998 at 10:48:00 (EST)
___Selena -:- Re: lover of a fiction. -:- Fri, Feb 6, 1998 at 10:59:11 (EST)
___bftb -:- Re: happy premie -:- Fri, Feb 6, 1998 at 14:41:20 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: happy premie -:- Fri, Feb 6, 1998 at 14:55:44 (EST)
___Mickey the Pharisee -:- Re: happy premie -:- Fri, Feb 6, 1998 at 15:33:39 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: lover of a fiction. -:- Fri, Feb 6, 1998 at 16:10:42 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: happy premie -:- Fri, Feb 6, 1998 at 16:28:31 (EST)
___Sir David -:- Re: happy premie -:- Fri, Feb 6, 1998 at 16:56:12 (EST)
___Selena -:- Re: happy premie -:- Fri, Feb 6, 1998 at 17:16:09 (EST)
___Sir David -:- Re: Sir David -:- Fri, Feb 6, 1998 at 17:20:34 (EST)
___Bongo -:- Re: happy premie -:- Fri, Feb 6, 1998 at 18:59:47 (EST)
___Mickey the Pharisee -:- Re: happy premie -:- Fri, Feb 6, 1998 at 19:22:44 (EST)
___bongo -:- Re: happy premie -:- Fri, Feb 6, 1998 at 19:37:05 (EST)
___Mickey the Pharisee -:- Re: happy premie -:- Fri, Feb 6, 1998 at 19:37:35 (EST)
___Mickey the Pharisee -:- Re: happy premie -:- Fri, Feb 6, 1998 at 19:44:53 (EST)
___bongo -:- Re: happy premie -:- Fri, Feb 6, 1998 at 20:05:38 (EST)
___MOOD -:- SWING -:- Fri, Feb 6, 1998 at 22:40:31 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: happy premie -:- Sat, Feb 7, 1998 at 00:24:12 (EST)
___Joy -:- Re: happy premie -:- Sat, Feb 7, 1998 at 00:41:38 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: happy premie -:- Sat, Feb 7, 1998 at 05:37:46 (EST)
___Mr Ex -:- Who's using violence? -:- Sat, Feb 7, 1998 at 05:56:01 (EST)
___lg -:- Re: happy premie -:- Sat, Feb 7, 1998 at 09:03:34 (EST)
Brian -:- Broken forms and virus scares -:- Thurs, Feb 5, 1998 at 21:09:19 (EST)
___Brian -:- Re: Broken forms and virus scares -:- Thurs, Feb 5, 1998 at 21:26:06 (EST)
___Brian -:- Re: Broken forms and bongo posts -:- Thurs, Feb 5, 1998 at 21:48:36 (EST)
___VP -:- War of the Worlds... -:- Thurs, Feb 5, 1998 at 22:04:10 (EST)
Katie -:- alt.cult.maharaji on Deja News -:- Thurs, Feb 5, 1998 at 20:31:34 (EST)
___A pain in your technological behind -:- Off subject -:- Thurs, Feb 5, 1998 at 22:53:31 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: Off subject -:- Thurs, Feb 5, 1998 at 23:22:29 (EST)
___Brian -:- Re: Off subject -:- Fri, Feb 6, 1998 at 06:26:59 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: old forum and computer stuff -:- Fri, Feb 6, 1998 at 10:05:07 (EST)
___VP -:- Re: old forum and computer stuff -:- Fri, Feb 6, 1998 at 10:14:21 (EST)
___VP -:- The little engine who could -:- Fri, Feb 6, 1998 at 10:17:52 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: old forum and computer stuff -:- Fri, Feb 6, 1998 at 15:33:44 (EST)
John K. -:- History ? -:- Thurs, Feb 5, 1998 at 11:57:33 (EST)
___Mr Ex -:- Re: History ? -:- Thurs, Feb 5, 1998 at 13:20:46 (EST)
___John K. -:- Re: History ? -:- Thurs, Feb 5, 1998 at 15:25:26 (EST)
___Mr Ex -:- Is this really history? -:- Fri, Feb 6, 1998 at 10:23:51 (EST)
Dan Crothers -:- help -:- Wed, Feb 4, 1998 at 23:12:58 (EST)
___VP -:- Re: help -:- Wed, Feb 4, 1998 at 23:23:07 (EST)
___CD -:- Re: help -:- Thurs, Feb 5, 1998 at 04:03:56 (EST)
___annie ex ottawa -:- Re: help help help -:- Thurs, Feb 5, 1998 at 18:26:50 (EST)
___lucille - ottawa -:- Re: help -:- Thurs, Feb 5, 1998 at 19:31:16 (EST)
___You want help to -:- get INTO quicksand? To get INTO a lie? -:- Thurs, Feb 5, 1998 at 22:24:36 (EST)
(No Thread Start For - "Forum Reset" - )
___VP -:- Re: Forum Reset -:- Wed, Feb 4, 1998 at 22:08:08 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: Forum Reset -:- Wed, Feb 4, 1998 at 23:07:52 (EST)
___VP -:- Re: Forum Reset -:- Wed, Feb 4, 1998 at 23:45:18 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: Forum Reset -:- Wed, Feb 4, 1998 at 23:57:13 (EST)
___VP -:- Re: Forum Reset -:- Thurs, Feb 5, 1998 at 00:45:29 (EST)
___VP -:- Fear -:- Thurs, Feb 5, 1998 at 00:57:04 (EST)
___Anon -:- Re: Forum Reset -:- Thurs, Feb 5, 1998 at 04:34:58 (EST)
___Katie slightly off topic -:- Re: Forum Reset -:- Thurs, Feb 5, 1998 at 09:47:03 (EST)
___VP -:- Re: Forum Reset -:- Thurs, Feb 5, 1998 at 12:50:38 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: Forum Reset -:- Thurs, Feb 5, 1998 at 16:24:23 (EST)
___VP -:- M is a pumpkin -:- Thurs, Feb 5, 1998 at 17:30:11 (EST)
___Anon -:- Re: Forum Reset -:- Thurs, Feb 5, 1998 at 20:41:15 (EST)
StephenB -:- Chat Room Proposal -:- Wed, Feb 4, 1998 at 20:41:03 (EST)
___VP -:- Re: Chat Room Proposal -:- Wed, Feb 4, 1998 at 22:01:22 (EST)
___StephenB -:- Chat Room: InstructionsProposal -:- Thurs, Feb 5, 1998 at 00:00:37 (EST)
___Joy -:- Re: Chat Room: InstructionsProposal -:- Thurs, Feb 5, 1998 at 22:24:45 (EST)
___Joy -:- Re: Chat Room: InstructionsProposal -:- Thurs, Feb 5, 1998 at 22:24:55 (EST)
___Joy -:- Re: Chat Room: InstructionsProposal -:- Thurs, Feb 5, 1998 at 22:26:06 (EST)
Date: Sat, Feb 7, 1998 at 07:28:15 (EST)
Poster: Seymour
Email: seymour_t@rocketmail.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Where are we now?
Message:
Greetings All.
For the first time in a few weeks I have an hour to spare and think about such things as…..
What is true? Although it is tempting to believe in things that, if true, would make life better - reduce pain, give joy, strength, wisdom and whatever else we might desire. Lots of children believed in Father Christmas until they gradually became aware of the truth - but the presents, hopefully, were still there which took the sting out of it and we realised that they were coming, not from some mystical entity, but from our parents, carers or friends who we could thank, knowing that they cared enough about us to take the time and money to but a gift.
My point is, that although as premies we may have enjoyed some things about being a premie - perhaps the association with like minded people who saw the shallowness, suffering, confusion and selfishness in the world and wanted to change it and themselves, perhaps the need to be doing something rather than just thinking and knowledge was a tool to raise consciousness, perhaps the social life ( I certainly enjoyed at least some of the festivals and satsang nights. )
Whatever we got out of being a premie that is real is still there to be enjoyed and even more now that we do not have to subscribe to any beliefs that are unreasonable such as the ‘evil’ mind, lila, grace,satchitanand…… or try and perform actions that will deserve the blessings of the Lord God.
For many years I closed myself to many sources of inspiration because I reasoned that if the author or artist who had created the book, painting, film etc. was not person whose life style was as I thought it should be i.e. a meditating, theistic, sober, clean living sort - preferably a premie but I never excluded potential premies or those of other similar religious persuasions.
It has taken many years since becoming disillusioned with knowledge but I am now enjoying the appreciation of a wide variety of sources of inspiration. The recognition of another’s innermost thought or their lucid observations on the human condition, the excitement and joy that comes from a great work of art, the gradual understanding that comes through the study of philosophy and science and the ‘buzz’ at those unexpected moments when the ‘penny drops’ and you grasp some aspect of life and our relationship with one another that you had never quite understood before… these are just some of the experiences that have replaced the ‘high’ that came when a particularly good speaker gave satsang or the music/vibes were such that they re-inforced some previously conditioned ideas that were mostly based on wishful thinking, hopes and superstition rather that anything real.
There may be no Wizard of Oz at the end of the humanist yellow brick road but at least it is solid and wherever it leads is a real place. I hope I never again waste my time chasing rainbows - they are very attractive but have no substance.
My hour is up.. best wishes to all
Seymour.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Sat, Feb 7, 1998 at 11:53:21 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email: joger02@aol.com
To: Seymour
Subject: Re: Where are we now?
Message:
Greetings All.
For the first time in a few weeks I have an hour to spare and think about such things as…..
What is true? Although it is tempting to believe in things that, if true, would make life better - reduce pain, give joy, strength, wisdom and whatever else we might desire. Lots of children believed in Father Christmas until they gradually became aware of the truth - but the presents, hopefully, were still there which took the sting out of it and we realised that they were coming, not from some mystical entity, but from our parents, carers or friends who we could thank, knowing that they cared enough about us to take the time and money to but a gift.
My point is, that although as premies we may have enjoyed some things about being a premie - perhaps the association with like minded people who saw the shallowness, suffering, confusion and selfishness in the world and wanted to change it and themselves, perhaps the need to be doing something rather than just thinking and knowledge was a tool to raise consciousness, perhaps the social life ( I certainly enjoyed at least some of the festivals and satsang nights. )
Whatever we got out of being a premie that is real is still there to be enjoyed and even more now that we do not have to subscribe to any beliefs that are unreasonable such as the ‘evil’ mind, lila, grace,satchitanand…… or try and perform actions that will deserve the blessings of the Lord God.
For many years I closed myself to many sources of inspiration because I reasoned that if the author or artist who had created the book, painting, film etc. was not person whose life style was as I thought it should be i.e. a meditating, theistic, sober, clean living sort - preferably a premie but I never excluded potential premies or those of other similar religious persuasions.
It has taken many years since becoming disillusioned with knowledge but I am now enjoying the appreciation of a wide variety of sources of inspiration. The recognition of another’s innermost thought or their lucid observations on the human condition, the excitement and joy that comes from a great work of art, the gradual understanding that comes through the study of philosophy and science and the ‘buzz’ at those unexpected moments when the ‘penny drops’ and you grasp some aspect of life and our relationship with one another that you had never quite understood before… these are just some of the experiences that have replaced the ‘high’ that came when a particularly good speaker gave satsang or the music/vibes were such that they re-inforced some previously conditioned ideas that were mostly based on wishful thinking, hopes and superstition rather that anything real.
There may be no Wizard of Oz at the end of the humanist yellow brick road but at least it is solid and wherever it leads is a real place. I hope I never again waste my time chasing rainbows - they are very attractive but have no substance.
My hour is up.. best wishes to all
Seymour.
Thanks, Seymour. That was very insightful and eloquently expressed. I would have to say I agree with you 100%. I agree that after being so disillusioned by something that was supposed to be ultimate, it does take time to be open to to anything else on a deep level. It's an effort you have to make, but it is worth it. And if I take what I learned (good and bad) from my time as a premie, I find I can see those inspirations with a kind of maturity that I didn't have before.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Sun, Feb 8, 1998 at 05:51:14 (EST)
Poster: seymour
Email: seymour_t@rocketmail.com
To: JW
Subject: Re: Where are we now?
Message:
Hi JW, thanks for reading my rambles. Although I sometimes feel that some of the time being a premie was wasted I agree that we probably learnt a few things - not least from each other - and have come out of it older and wiser.
Maybe we have just gone through another stage of 'growing up'and now realise, among other things, that we have to make our own efforts to flourish rather than surrender the reigns to some so-called 'expert'. Of course we all need help from time to time and there is always someone out there who is a bit wiser and, in the same way that business companies use contract workers,we should always be willing to humbly ask for assistance when we cannot solve a problem. The foolish thing would be to give control to that 'contractor' and allow him/her to give you orders. We must be in charge of what happens and remember that our 'Guru' is only there because we 'hired' him to help and if it looks like the expert is not so 'expert' after all or the time comes that we do not need his help there should be no worry or guilt about letting him go.
This is less an 'ego' thing than a 'taking responsibility for your own life' sort of thing.
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Date: Sun, Feb 8, 1998 at 07:56:53 (EST)
Poster: sorry mom,
Email: **
To: seymour
Subject: but I'm god (Re: Where are we now?)
Message:
Good to have you back.
I saw a vidoe of maharaji at the oct event in the
austrailian site.
The topic was devotion and again he dismissed families
and relationships with other humans and said the only
real thing was devotion to the master.
Without quoteing him exactly I can confirm that he
without a doubt does not believe in any god
besides the one who gives you the knowledge and he said
the aspirants that were feeling devotion to him were
already there and getting the techniques now was just a
'formality'.
Clearly he was fully returned to the old devotional
days and he is whatever lord there is.
The songs they sang to him were with the old lyrics and
even though the recent tapes change the lyrics, at the
private events they uncork the old 'you are the lord lyrics.
He isn't pitching a meditation I guess, he is pitching
a meditation to validate his lordship. The only goal
is to recognise that he is lord.
He even mentioned someone telling thier mom to go away.
And that that is but natural because all relationships
have problems and the only thing that is real is the
knowledge and the relationship with the master.
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Date: Sun, Feb 8, 1998 at 09:25:08 (EST)
Poster: seymour
Email:
To: sorry mom,
Subject: Re: but I'm god (Re: Where are we now?)
Message:
Sometimes I forget how creepy it all is.. Putting your practice of knowledge before your family, friends etc. Saying that there is nothing greater than 'Guru' because he leads you to God is so dangerous. No one should try to influence us so much - even if they think it is for the best.
Surely premies must be the aware that there are lots of good people in the world with greater wisdom, strength, kindness and understanding of our position in the Universe than themselves - or is it still being said that the 'answer' is known by G.M. and that's that. i.e. everything else is a waste of time?.
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Date: Mon, Feb 9, 1998 at 12:02:01 (EST)
Poster: Selena
Email:
To: seymour
Subject: Re: but I'm god (Re: Where are we now?)
Message:
From what I have seen recently, premies do indeed think that there is nothing greater than M. If they see or hear or read something really inspirational, it's interpreted as coming from M and not the actual source, after all the person saying this is only channeling M somehow. Or, at least, it's M's grace that they read or saw it.
If you have a dysfunctional relationship with your lover, so what? All that matters is Maharaji anyway. On and on.
I for one am glad M and his followers are trying to lead this double blind thing of hiding lyrics, etc., basically hiding the Hindi guru worship thing. That hypocrisy is not so hard to see through, and it's what got me disgusted with the whole thing and that's the best thing they ever gave me!
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Date: Sat, Feb 7, 1998 at 04:02:00 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Everyone
Subject: The Heart
Message:
THE HEART
(This is a talk given by Anthony in a discussion of Islam using Arabi as an example of the mysticism to be found in Islam)
What is the heart? It is not the organ of flesh situated on the left side of the chest. There is a connection between the two; the mode is unknowable. It has to do with subtle physiology, and spoken of from contemplative experience it expresses itself in symbolic language. These experiences are real but not in the sense that physical phenomena is real.
The subtle physiology is also called "Mystic physiology" and operates through a subtle body as distinguished from the physical organs or body organs. The heart is one of its centers. He speaks of the Hydrus reaction. Its supreme vision is the Forms of God. This because the "Gnostic" heart is the "Eye". The organ by which God knows himself reveals himself to himself all of the Forms of his Epiphany. That is not as he inwardly knows himself for in its Quest of the Divine Essence even the highest science can go no farther. This is the Divine Breath which gave rise to the cloud. It is also true to say that the gnostic as the perfect man is the seat of the Goda, Divine Consciousness. Arabi says the power of the heart is a secret force or energy which perceives Divine Reality by a pure hierophant knowledge without mixture of any kind because the heart contains even the Divine Compassion. In its unveiled state the heart of the Gnostic is like a mirror in which the microcosmic forms of the Divine Being is reflected.
The power of the heart is designated by the term "Himmah" and as I
understand it is a vital spiritual force that manifests or creates
the Divine substances which mirrors itself in the heart; this Divine substance being the cloud or primordial image from the Divine Breath of God.
The heart produces true knowledge, comprehends intuition, everything esoteric.
The book "The Magus of Strovolos" is available from Book Search by
Susan. Call 1-937-8904169 if interested.
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Date: Sat, Feb 7, 1998 at 13:24:28 (EST)
Poster: Joy
Email: Bluebirdd@aol.com
To: Mili
Subject: Re: The Heart
Message:
That was quite lovely, Mili. Thank you for posting it.
But, why do premies assume they have a corner on experiencing "heart"? And that ex-premies do not experience an opening and flowering of their hearts? It just doesn't take the same form as it did when we had devotion for Maharaji, but (and I'm speaking for myself here, mainly) we experience heart just as much as anyone else. I, for instance, have absolutely magical experiences with certain music, with books and stories, with poetry, films, friends, lovers etc. Maharaji has people deluded into thinking he has the corner on the experience of "heart", and everything else is "mind" or "the world". But my experience has been that there are many gateways into that experience of heart and magic. This cult and all others claim exclusive rights to this experience, which is what makes them cults.
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Date: Sun, Feb 8, 1998 at 04:49:38 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Joy
Subject: Re: The Heart
Message:
That was quite lovely, Mili. Thank you for posting it.
But, why do premies assume they have a corner on experiencing 'heart'? And that ex-premies do not experience an opening and flowering of their hearts? It just doesn't take the same form as it did when we had devotion for Maharaji, but (and I'm speaking for myself here, mainly) we experience heart just as much as anyone else. I, for instance, have absolutely magical experiences with certain music, with books and stories, with poetry, films, friends, lovers etc. Maharaji has people deluded into thinking he has the corner on the experience of 'heart', and everything else is 'mind' or 'the world'. But my experience has been that there are many gateways into that experience of heart and magic. This cult and all others claim exclusive rights to this experience, which is what makes them cults.
Q: Maharaji, Is this Knowledge just available from you?
A: I don't say take this Knowledge from me. Take this Knowledge from anywhere you can get it. But if you can't get outside, if anybody can't give it to you, then come to me.
My point is just this: take this Knowledge. That's all. If anybody else can give it to you, go there and take this Knowledge. But if they can't give you this Knowledge, come to me and I will give you this Knowledge. I have this Knowledge.
- September 1971, Toronto
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Date: Sun, Feb 8, 1998 at 05:58:54 (EST)
Poster: Anon
Email:
To: Mili
Subject: Re: The Heart
Message:
Q: Maharaji, Is this Knowledge just available from you?
A: I don't say take this Knowledge from me. Take this Knowledge from anywhere you can get it. But if you can't get outside, if anybody can't give it to you, then come to me.
My point is just this: take this Knowledge. That's all. If anybody else can give it to you, go there and take this Knowledge. But if they can't give you this Knowledge, come to me and I will give you this Knowledge. I have this Knowledge.
- September 1971, Toronto
I was initially impressed when Maharaji said this but it turned out not to be quite that simple.
Every good salesman will say that sort of thing regardless of the true value of their wares, just to get you to buy their product. ie:
"the adverts speak very highly of the product" so it must be worth having.
What is missing from Maharaji's statement are the later costs. The small print. The vows of secrecy, the promise to return to see Maharaji, the need to watch videos, get involved in his work. That for many was the slippery slope.
Others, like your good-self, by your own admission did not 'surrender the reins of your life' to Maharaji so totally and thus have no regrets. You did not get burned in the process so you still trust Maharaji and see everything through rosey 'Maharaji-colored-glasses' in my opinion.
I agree with Joy that you can experience the heart (by which I mean: Emotions of love for life and the Creator)
without Maharaji.
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Date: Sun, Feb 8, 1998 at 06:09:52 (EST)
Poster: Anon
Email:
To: Mili
Subject: Re: The Heart
Message:
Q: Maharaji, Is this Knowledge just available from you?
A: I don't say take this Knowledge from me. Take this Knowledge from anywhere you can get it. But if you can't get outside, if anybody can't give it to you, then come to me. My point is just this: take this Knowledge. That's all. If anybody else can give it to you, go there and take this Knowledge. But if they can't give you this Knowledge, come to me and I will give you this Knowledge. I have this Knowledge.
- September 1971, Toronto
The Scene:
London in the fifties
On arriving in London, where Skoda cars have never yet been seen or sold, a Russian salesman sets up the first Skoda Sales shop and gives a radio interview to promote the now infamous car.
Q: Maharajski, Is this Car just available from you?
A: I don't say buy this Car from me. Buy this Car from anywhere you can get it. But if you can't get outside, if anybody can't give it to you, then come to me.
My point is just this: buy this Car. That's all. If anybody else can give it to you, go there and buy this Car. But if they can't give you this Car, come to me and I will give you this Car. I have this Car.
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Date: Sun, Feb 8, 1998 at 08:39:29 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Anon
Subject: Re: The Heart
Message:
Q: Maharaji, Is this Knowledge just available from you?
A: I don't say take this Knowledge from me. Take this Knowledge from anywhere you can get it. But if you can't get outside, if anybody can't give it to you, then come to me.
My point is just this: take this Knowledge. That's all. If anybody else can give it to you, go there and take this Knowledge. But if they can't give you this Knowledge, come to me and I will give you this Knowledge. I have this Knowledge.
- September 1971, Toronto
I was initially impressed when Maharaji said this but it turned out not to be quite that simple.
Every good salesman will say that sort of thing regardless of the true value of their wares, just to get you to buy their product. ie:
'the adverts speak very highly of the product' so it must be worth having.
What is missing from Maharaji's statement are the later costs. The small print. The vows of secrecy, the promise to return to see Maharaji, the need to watch videos, get involved in his work. That for many was the slippery slope.
Others, like your good-self, by your own admission did not 'surrender the reins of your life' to Maharaji so totally and thus have no regrets. You did not get burned in the process so you still trust Maharaji and see everything through rosey 'Maharaji-colored-glasses' in my opinion.
I agree with Joy that you can experience the heart (by which I mean: Emotions of love for life and the Creator)
without Maharaji.
It's funny - I was the one who put this non-Maharaji quote (the first one in the thread), and now I get accused of promoting exclusive Maharaji stuff. But, OK, I think I got Joy's drift. The thing is, my motivation in posting that was not to advocate Maharaji. (Hard to believe?) I was just expressing my experiences with the Knowledge - it does take you deep within the Heart. That's just been my experience, and I don't even want to generalize and say it'll work for everyone.
Once I asked (the now infamous) Jagdeo when he was in Zagreb having Knowledge sessions: Mahatma Ji, what is 'good'? His answer, surprisingly, was not 'Maharaji is good and his Knowledge is good. Everything else is bad.' He said, 'That's a very good question. Whatever inspires you to meditate is good.'
Not at all sectarian, don't you think?
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Date: Sat, Feb 7, 1998 at 03:26:51 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Social Harmony?
Message:
Sure, we all want to love our neighbors and have our neighbors loving us, to live peacefully in harmony with nature, to have a fulfilling family life. The reality is different and almost makes those ideals seem like wishful thinking. People are selfish, money is God, self-gain and short-term interest is dominant.
Could it be that the priesthood of a particular religion is advocating 'their' moral authority in order to sustain itself as monopolistic dispensers of social cohesion? Quite a plausible interpretation.
Dawkins makes a formidable case for selfishness as a biological necessity. Children love their parents for selfish reasons, husbands and wives are together for the selfish reason of procreating their own genes, and its a constant ego/power struggle. Our nature is biological, and when you put too many individuals of a species in too small a living area, inter-species aggression increases. Zoo keepers know this, and they make sure that the cages are not made too small otherwise the animals destroy each other.
And look at us - a planetful of naked apes devouring natural resources at an exponential rate and preying on each other in the process. Different ethnic groups intolerant of each other, nuclear weapons stcokpiled and far from being defused, and the ever present social class struggle of the rich trying to get richer at the poor ones expense controlling this unjust social pecking order by a well paid military and police force, until a revolution or coup breaks out and the poor ones plunder the rich ones in an attempt to get rich themselves. It's far from an ideal world, it has been that way for a long time, but due to the exponential increase of individuals, its becoming more intense every day.
I was watching another documentary some time ago, about Charlemagne in medieval Europe. He was the first great Roman Catholic emperor, had all the blessings of a feeble Pope, and was responsible for vanquishing the Celts and spreading the Catholic religion by sword in Western Europe. The Celts and German tribes worshipped Yggdrasil, the World Tree. I don't say that their religion was superior to the Catholic one. Worshipping a tree might seem strange at first, but when you think about it its not that odd at all. Maybe less so than worshipping a God who made a blood sacrifice of his only Son in order to atone everybody's sin - a guilt feeling that you are supposed to feel for no reason other than that you were born through an act of sexual copulation of your parents that you actually had nothing to do with.
So, when you try to honestly examine your own motives and the motives of these social 'do-gooders' you have to reach a sincere level of being suspended judgement. So many of our attitudes and motives that we call our own have in fact been implanted in us by our social background and education. Maybe its only when you start thinking a little 'different', such as when coming in contact with the beliefs and traditions of another culture, that your own 'programming' becomes more apparent. The world is becoming smaller and smaller every day, though, and no amount of wishful thinking is going to change that fact. We need to become more tolerant of other cultures, religions, ways of thinking and just other people's ideas. However, the sheer number of individuals, and new mouths to feed, increasing every day, makes me skeptical of any natural social harmony in the future. We are at each other's throats, and will be so more in the future, lets face it.
If anyone comes and tries to 'reprogram' me in the interest of a higher ideal, or the supposed benefit of society, I will know that he is a fake and is imposing himself on me just for furthering his/her own self-interest.
Let them try and 'deprogram' my baseball bat first, then.
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Date: Sat, Feb 7, 1998 at 09:46:46 (EST)
Poster: For
Email: bb
To: Mili
Subject: Milificent (Re: Social Harmony?)
Message:
Interesting post Mili.
As most of your posts are.
Except when we are doing battle over maharaji, those
can sometimes have little content.
When I got to the bottom of your post, I thought I wish
you would write a version two for the ending.
When the christians talk to me they say what yousaid
about blood sacrifice. but in reading the 4 so-called
gospels, he seems to be saying over and over that he is
going to be living out all the jewish prophecies and
that includes being killed. And that he has power over
death and that will be shown. As well as power over
the dna world and it's rules about healing blindness
and the healing other things and breaking the rules.
He said the only commandment was the one about love.
You are more that equipped for that. You know the word
he was talking about. All you and I need now is to
recognise our lucky situation.
I know you mentioned the view that 'god reveals himself to
himself' but that doesn't seem to be the way it works
here. We are definately independent and we can't
seem to get out of our lucky arrangement.
Which is, that we are part of something which actually
cares and can and does help us and we can have a
feeling of love and a true relationship with the honest-
to-god real existing god friend.
And you and I can walk through our day and feel our
life and learn to live with peace in our heart and
ask god for the love to give out and to give us
the strength and help to live a full human life.
Sure there are lots of bad things and lots of bad
lives that have gotten lived and it's a world of
obstacles. But the message of yeshua/jesus is a
strong confirmation of the reality of a god that cares
and is real. Faith I have had. Faith YOU have had.
The reason I have been so freaked out for months
is that I had my faith destroyed and I had to come
around to seeing that yes, ok, faith is the way to
live, but faith in what? eastern types want me to think
that I am god. Great, thanks for nothing.
The people who live like that sound like the dalia lama,
who said to 7 buddist nuns that are coming to my
town soon. He said 'contemplate on the emptyness'.
Because god does not give athiests what we can get by
having faith. You might be in an environment where
you are the smartest guy. I don't doubt that, I bet that
is true. But look at the simple folk who believe
in god, they are flawed, and subject to error certainly,
but the ones with the most faith are the ones with
the most fulfilled lives I bet.
Maharaji is not equipped to have faith in.
If you are a person of faith he is not for you.
Maybe there is some type of person that just likes
the relationship he offers, but even then it is unfair
of him to play gods role.
I remember saying a few times that maharaji came the only
way I would accept him, as god, because I was already
into god and I wasn't interested in a teacher or
whatever, but maharaji boldly claimed to be god and
so I was taken.
To look above a misunderstanding or a trap does not
mean to see how rotten life is, but to find out that
it's like coming out from under a rock into the kingdom
of a good god and I have the word courtesy of a
very flawed source. The preacher at the local church
says that the holy spirit is the breath. I heard him
say that myself. And he said that at the main service event.
So, we have that, good for us if we find it helps us.
But it in itself is by no means sufficient.
I read the quote myself about this next point and I had it
wrong all these years. Here it is.
WITH FAITH, what I have done all men can do.
Faith in whom? Not in my own godhead. Not in the next
guy.
You know Mili, with your knowledge and education you
probably would find the 160 pages of the four gospels
to be quite an interesting story. I think we were done
a disservice by all the people around us who spoonfed
quotes from that book to us when we were young and had
us swallow all the dogma and rituals that are not part
of that 160 pages. Just Mark, Luke, Matt, and John.
Quite a story! Expecially knowing your breath already.
Best of luck!
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Date: Sat, Feb 7, 1998 at 09:59:16 (EST)
Poster: VP
Email:
To: Mili
Subject: Re: Social Harmony?
Message:
Hi, Mili
I don't really see that anyone here is trying to deprogram you or any other premies. Most of the people on here have looked at things in a very different light from the rest of society. They have abandoned their societal programming in favor of a new idea and found it to be false for them.
I don't want to reprogram anyone but I do know that I personally would like to see the truth about EV and DLM exposed and share that with others who are questioning EV. (I know that there are lots of premies who are not questioning and that is up to them). I know that what you and I perceive to be the truth is vastly different and we can agree to disagree on that topic. If I am wrong and you or any premie can produce hard evidence, I am open to listening to it. One day this week a premie posted that there was evidence to support that M was the living lord. Several of us were eager to hear what he had to say, but he never offered us an answer about any evidence. I don't have any respect for that type of discussion.
The problem that I see with your posting above is that I really do not see M or EV taking pro-active steps to remedy the social ills of the world. For instance, what is M doing to keep people from cutting down the rain forest? Is he engaged in talks with other leaders to disarm nuclear weapons? I remember that in the 70's there was talk about DLM opening up all of these hospitals around the world and providing free care for the needy. Did this ever happen and if so is it in place today? Please update me with any pro-active programs that EV is funding along these lines if I am incorrect.
You are right-people are at each other's throats but what does M do to aleviate this? Is he suggesting that peace and harmony among our species could be accomplished by disemination of "K" to everyone? It is a wonderful idea but my question to you is that if this is the answer, why not shout it from the rooftops like DLM did in the 70's? If a buisness or cause isn't in the phone book and on TV in this society it will miss those who it wants to reach.
One last point, I don't want to start a pissing contest, but from the posts I have read the premies are much less tolerant of the people on this site than the ex's are of the premies. I think they have made it perfectly clear that they have a bone to pick with M, not with you. When they make fun of being "blissed out" or "brainwahed" they are probably speaking from their own experiences which are valid.
Have a great day! In peace, VP
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Date: Sat, Feb 7, 1998 at 10:19:40 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: bb
Subject: Re: Milificent (Re: Social Harmony?)
Message:
Well, Bill, It's nice to know that we can share some positive thoughts even though we disagree about the role of Maharaji in our lives. I am not out to change your mind. But I enjoy these (reasonably) positive exchanges. Live and let live is where its at. Maybe someday, I'll come to an end of my rope with Maharaji, and then I'll look back and say, 'Bill Burke wasn't such a bad guy, after all.' But, right now, if you try to turn me around by insulting what I (still) hold precious, then it doesn't rub off well on me.
You know, I am not the kind of person who wants to conquer the world, or make everyone think the same way I do or hold the same opinions that I have. Is this planet teeming with technology wielding apes worth it? But I can relate to sentiments such as 'discover the treasure in your Heart'. There is a depth there, there is something worth knowing and discovering there and it makes all the other possesions you can desire and objectives you can make for yourself seem pale in comparison. And when I am feeling that, it even makes this foul ol' world seem better. I don't think its an Indian or Western thing at all. It has more to do with the simple, unadulterated joy of just being alive. I think even flowers, fish and elephants feel it, too. Dolphins most definitely do. I don't think you have to go to any particular church or temple to feel that.
'I declare I will establish peace in this world.
But what can I do if people do not come to me with love in their hearts, and a keen wish to know peace and truth?'
I wonder why you guys never give the complete quote.
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Date: Sat, Feb 7, 1998 at 10:57:19 (EST)
Poster: St.
Email: bb
To: Mili
Subject: Milificent (Re: Social Harmony?)
Message:
The line, 'is this planet teeming with technology
wielding apes worth it?'
Was real funny to me.
The only treasure I find in my heart is the presence of
the spirit or breath. I have my body and I have my
spirit. Prem Rawat has his body and has his breath
but he has nothing to do with the lord that he doesn't
even believe in.
Many people choose to say there is no god.
What can anyone do about that?
A child of god is what we are.
We are free to think otherwise.
There is no shortage of people saying wonderful
sounding things but thier intent is to involve us in
a lot more than is required for the simple life of
faith in god and it's benefits.
Maharaji seems harmless enough to those that dabble
on the edges of his words.
I know the quote about peace on earth. Very well.
It was a cornerstone of my faith.
I guess we can ignore the track record of all the
real devotees that came and his family and we were all
driven out of the kingdom of heaven.
I DID continually make excuses on why it was not
manifesting and made excuses on why he did the things he
did. I am finally at the wrecked end of all my faith.
I have new fresh faith in the reality and I am flourishing
in many ways. Finally my heart is free.
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Date: Sat, Feb 7, 1998 at 12:29:39 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: Mili
Subject: Re: Social Harmony?
Message:
Sure, we all want to love our neighbors and have our neighbors loving us, to live peacefully in harmony with nature, to have a fulfilling family life. The reality is different and almost makes those ideals seem like wishful thinking. People are selfish, money is God, self-gain and short-term interest is dominant.
Could it be that the priesthood of a particular religion is advocating 'their' moral authority in order to sustain itself as monopolistic dispensers of social cohesion? Quite a plausible interpretation.
Dawkins makes a formidable case for selfishness as a biological necessity. Children love their parents for selfish reasons, husbands and wives are together for the selfish reason of procreating their own genes, and its a constant ego/power struggle. Our nature is biological, and when you put too many individuals of a species in too small a living area, inter-species aggression increases. Zoo keepers know this, and they make sure that the cages are not made too small otherwise the animals destroy each other.
And look at us - a planetful of naked apes devouring natural resources at an exponential rate and preying on each other in the process. Different ethnic groups intolerant of each other, nuclear weapons stcokpiled and far from being defused, and the ever present social class struggle of the rich trying to get richer at the poor ones expense controlling this unjust social pecking order by a well paid military and police force, until a revolution or coup breaks out and the poor ones plunder the rich ones in an attempt to get rich themselves. It's far from an ideal world, it has been that way for a long time, but due to the exponential increase of individuals, its becoming more intense every day.
I was watching another documentary some time ago, about Charlemagne in medieval Europe. He was the first great Roman Catholic emperor, had all the blessings of a feeble Pope, and was responsible for vanquishing the Celts and spreading the Catholic religion by sword in Western Europe. The Celts and German tribes worshipped Yggdrasil, the World Tree. I don't say that their religion was superior to the Catholic one. Worshipping a tree might seem strange at first, but when you think about it its not that odd at all. Maybe less so than worshipping a God who made a blood sacrifice of his only Son in order to atone everybody's sin - a guilt feeling that you are supposed to feel for no reason other than that you were born through an act of sexual copulation of your parents that you actually had nothing to do with.
So, when you try to honestly examine your own motives and the motives of these social 'do-gooders' you have to reach a sincere level of being suspended judgement. So many of our attitudes and motives that we call our own have in fact been implanted in us by our social background and education. Maybe its only when you start thinking a little 'different', such as when coming in contact with the beliefs and traditions of another culture, that your own 'programming' becomes more apparent. The world is becoming smaller and smaller every day, though, and no amount of wishful thinking is going to change that fact. We need to become more tolerant of other cultures, religions, ways of thinking and just other people's ideas. However, the sheer number of individuals, and new mouths to feed, increasing every day, makes me skeptical of any natural social harmony in the future. We are at each other's throats, and will be so more in the future, lets face it.
If anyone comes and tries to 'reprogram' me in the interest of a higher ideal, or the supposed benefit of society, I will know that he is a fake and is imposing himself on me just for furthering his/her own self-interest.
Let them try and 'deprogram' my baseball bat first, then.
Nice discourse, Mili. But I don't share your pessimism. I know you live in a part of the world where homicidal hatred, based on the most illogical, historical prejudices, has recently manifested itself in the worst way. Because of that, I can understand your defensiveness and negative view of human beings. But I guess I have more faith in people. I know it's a challenge, but humans are capable of doing wonderful things.
Last night I was watching the opening ceremonies of the Winter Olympics from Japan. There was a delegation of athletes from Bosnia, marching under their new flag, just instituted a few days ago, and I think the flag was being carried by one of their athletes who had been shot twice during the war. But he was there, and so were the other athletes, and so was the flag. I found it inspiring how people can carry on, believing and supporting a multi-religious, diverse society, where people can really live together in peace and respect. I guess this makes me a secular humanist, and, since I think we are coming to the conclusion that is we are going to survive as a species, we need to get beyond our differences, and instead celebrate them, I don't think Dawkins would disagree.
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Date: Sun, Feb 8, 1998 at 05:14:32 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: JW
Subject: Re: Social Harmony?
Message:
Sure, we all want to love our neighbors and have our neighbors loving us, to live peacefully in harmony with nature, to have a fulfilling family life. The reality is different and almost makes those ideals seem like wishful thinking. People are selfish, money is God, self-gain and short-term interest is dominant.
Could it be that the priesthood of a particular religion is advocating 'their' moral authority in order to sustain itself as monopolistic dispensers of social cohesion? Quite a plausible interpretation.
Dawkins makes a formidable case for selfishness as a biological necessity. Children love their parents for selfish reasons, husbands and wives are together for the selfish reason of procreating their own genes, and its a constant ego/power struggle. Our nature is biological, and when you put too many individuals of a species in too small a living area, inter-species aggression increases. Zoo keepers know this, and they make sure that the cages are not made too small otherwise the animals destroy each other.
And look at us - a planetful of naked apes devouring natural resources at an exponential rate and preying on each other in the process. Different ethnic groups intolerant of each other, nuclear weapons stcokpiled and far from being defused, and the ever present social class struggle of the rich trying to get richer at the poor ones expense controlling this unjust social pecking order by a well paid military and police force, until a revolution or coup breaks out and the poor ones plunder the rich ones in an attempt to get rich themselves. It's far from an ideal world, it has been that way for a long time, but due to the exponential increase of individuals, its becoming more intense every day.
I was watching another documentary some time ago, about Charlemagne in medieval Europe. He was the first great Roman Catholic emperor, had all the blessings of a feeble Pope, and was responsible for vanquishing the Celts and spreading the Catholic religion by sword in Western Europe. The Celts and German tribes worshipped Yggdrasil, the World Tree. I don't say that their religion was superior to the Catholic one. Worshipping a tree might seem strange at first, but when you think about it its not that odd at all. Maybe less so than worshipping a God who made a blood sacrifice of his only Son in order to atone everybody's sin - a guilt feeling that you are supposed to feel for no reason other than that you were born through an act of sexual copulation of your parents that you actually had nothing to do with.
So, when you try to honestly examine your own motives and the motives of these social 'do-gooders' you have to reach a sincere level of being suspended judgement. So many of our attitudes and motives that we call our own have in fact been implanted in us by our social background and education. Maybe its only when you start thinking a little 'different', such as when coming in contact with the beliefs and traditions of another culture, that your own 'programming' becomes more apparent. The world is becoming smaller and smaller every day, though, and no amount of wishful thinking is going to change that fact. We need to become more tolerant of other cultures, religions, ways of thinking and just other people's ideas. However, the sheer number of individuals, and new mouths to feed, increasing every day, makes me skeptical of any natural social harmony in the future. We are at each other's throats, and will be so more in the future, lets face it.
If anyone comes and tries to 'reprogram' me in the interest of a higher ideal, or the supposed benefit of society, I will know that he is a fake and is imposing himself on me just for furthering his/her own self-interest.
Let them try and 'deprogram' my baseball bat first, then.
Nice discourse, Mili. But I don't share your pessimism. I know you live in a part of the world where homicidal hatred, based on the most illogical, historical prejudices, has recently manifested itself in the worst way. Because of that, I can understand your defensiveness and negative view of human beings. But I guess I have more faith in people. I know it's a challenge, but humans are capable of doing wonderful things.
Last night I was watching the opening ceremonies of the Winter Olympics from Japan. There was a delegation of athletes from Bosnia, marching under their new flag, just instituted a few days ago, and I think the flag was being carried by one of their athletes who had been shot twice during the war. But he was there, and so were the other athletes, and so was the flag. I found it inspiring how people can carry on, believing and supporting a multi-religious, diverse society, where people can really live together in peace and respect. I guess this makes me a secular humanist, and, since I think we are coming to the conclusion that is we are going to survive as a species, we need to get beyond our differences, and instead celebrate them, I don't think Dawkins would disagree.
Well, the thing is, JW, there was a Winter Olympics held in Sarajevo, too, some time ago. It didn't do anything to prevent the war from breaking out.
Come on, you can't tell me that you really buy
this 'Reach out and touch somebody's hand' tripe. THAT is really deluding yourself! It's just a show, man. Show business - and somebody, Rupert Murdoch or Aaron Spelling, or Donald Trump is making big moola out of it. Look, I've worked for UNICEF for five years. All they do is produce declarations, papers, charters. It's all bullshit. And they put on this show just so the fat salaries can keep on piling in Chemical Bank. Nobody really wants to get their hands dirty. The funding is there just so the donors can have a little leeway on their tax forms.
Why do you think Sarajevo was being bombed for five years and nobody lifted a finger to stop it? Because there was no oil in Bosnia, that's why! No naphta, no superpower interest. Now, when the EU got savvy that as a reaction, a fundamentalist Muslim country was forming in the heart of Europe, that's when there was a response.
Just last night I saw the news - 15,000 scientists were invited to (yet another) UN conference on the theme 'Save the Earth'. Only 3,000 confirmed their arrival. It's a nice little plush weekend getaway. The other 12,000 responded that there's nothing that can be done about it, and they are just not interested in talking about it anymore!
I am not a prophet of doom. I mean, we all have our individual doomsday scheduled for us, sooner or later. Kick the bucket, and the Earth will go on, with you or without you.
The dinosaurs were wiped out pretty quick, yet life went on. Maybe after us, insects will inherit the Earth. Or rats. Or bacteria. Or maybe this naked ape infested phase will go on for the next few million years. My point is just this - don't delude yourself in thinking there is an ideal external situation that you can create for yourself on this planet. It can't last for very long. Maybe that's too grim for you, but that is the reality.
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Date: Sun, Feb 8, 1998 at 06:55:08 (EST)
Poster: living
Email: bb
To: Mili
Subject: close up (Re: Social Harmony?)
Message:
Well, it's tough to argue with that.
But don't overlook the fact that some people in your
location love you very much and there are some kids
that would love you REALLY a lot.
You have health, youth, time, smarts and you know what.
All that makes for a really good world made just for you.
The rest of the world may burn around you but you are
very lucky and there is the perfect stage for your
genius mind to do something great.
Just team up with god and see how happy you can make the
people around you. Well, thats what I've decided to do.
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Date: Sun, Feb 8, 1998 at 08:55:04 (EST)
Poster: VP
Email:
To: Mili
Subject: negativity, again (Re: Social Harmony?)
Message:
Sure, we all want to love our neighbors and have our neighbors loving us, to live peacefully in harmony with nature, to have a fulfilling family life. The reality is different and almost makes those ideals seem like wishful thinking. People are selfish, money is God, self-gain and short-term interest is dominant.
Could it be that the priesthood of a particular religion is advocating 'their' moral authority in order to sustain itself as monopolistic dispensers of social cohesion? Quite a plausible interpretation.
Dawkins makes a formidable case for selfishness as a biological necessity. Children love their parents for selfish reasons, husbands and wives are together for the selfish reason of procreating their own genes, and its a constant ego/power struggle. Our nature is biological, and when you put too many individuals of a species in too small a living area, inter-species aggression increases. Zoo keepers know this, and they make sure that the cages are not made too small otherwise the animals destroy each other.
And look at us - a planetful of naked apes devouring natural resources at an exponential rate and preying on each other in the process. Different ethnic groups intolerant of each other, nuclear weapons stcokpiled and far from being defused, and the ever present social class struggle of the rich trying to get richer at the poor ones expense controlling this unjust social pecking order by a well paid military and police force, until a revolution or coup breaks out and the poor ones plunder the rich ones in an attempt to get rich themselves. It's far from an ideal world, it has been that way for a long time, but due to the exponential increase of individuals, its becoming more intense every day.
I was watching another documentary some time ago, about Charlemagne in medieval Europe. He was the first great Roman Catholic emperor, had all the blessings of a feeble Pope, and was responsible for vanquishing the Celts and spreading the Catholic religion by sword in Western Europe. The Celts and German tribes worshipped Yggdrasil, the World Tree. I don't say that their religion was superior to the Catholic one. Worshipping a tree might seem strange at first, but when you think about it its not that odd at all. Maybe less so than worshipping a God who made a blood sacrifice of his only Son in order to atone everybody's sin - a guilt feeling that you are supposed to feel for no reason other than that you were born through an act of sexual copulation of your parents that you actually had nothing to do with.
So, when you try to honestly examine your own motives and the motives of these social 'do-gooders' you have to reach a sincere level of being suspended judgement. So many of our attitudes and motives that we call our own have in fact been implanted in us by our social background and education. Maybe its only when you start thinking a little 'different', such as when coming in contact with the beliefs and traditions of another culture, that your own 'programming' becomes more apparent. The world is becoming smaller and smaller every day, though, and no amount of wishful thinking is going to change that fact. We need to become more tolerant of other cultures, religions, ways of thinking and just other people's ideas. However, the sheer number of individuals, and new mouths to feed, increasing every day, makes me skeptical of any natural social harmony in the future. We are at each other's throats, and will be so more in the future, lets face it.
If anyone comes and tries to 'reprogram' me in the interest of a higher ideal, or the supposed benefit of society, I will know that he is a fake and is imposing himself on me just for furthering his/her own self-interest.
Let them try and 'deprogram' my baseball bat first, then.
Nice discourse, Mili. But I don't share your pessimism. I know you live in a part of the world where homicidal hatred, based on the most illogical, historical prejudices, has recently manifested itself in the worst way. Because of that, I can understand your defensiveness and negative view of human beings. But I guess I have more faith in people. I know it's a challenge, but humans are capable of doing wonderful things.
Last night I was watching the opening ceremonies of the Winter Olympics from Japan. There was a delegation of athletes from Bosnia, marching under their new flag, just instituted a few days ago, and I think the flag was being carried by one of their athletes who had been shot twice during the war. But he was there, and so were the other athletes, and so was the flag. I found it inspiring how people can carry on, believing and supporting a multi-religious, diverse society, where people can really live together in peace and respect. I guess this makes me a secular humanist, and, since I think we are coming to the conclusion that is we are going to survive as a species, we need to get beyond our differences, and instead celebrate them, I don't think Dawkins would disagree.
Well, the thing is, JW, there was a Winter Olympics held in Sarajevo, too, some time ago. It didn't do anything to prevent the war from breaking out.
Come on, you can't tell me that you really buy
this 'Reach out and touch somebody's hand' tripe. THAT is really deluding yourself! It's just a show, man. Show business - and somebody, Rupert Murdoch or Aaron Spelling, or Donald Trump is making big moola out of it. Look, I've worked for UNICEF for five years. All they do is produce declarations, papers, charters. It's all bullshit. And they put on this show just so the fat salaries can keep on piling in Chemical Bank. Nobody really wants to get their hands dirty. The funding is there just so the donors can have a little leeway on their tax forms.
Why do you think Sarajevo was being bombed for five years and nobody lifted a finger to stop it? Because there was no oil in Bosnia, that's why! No naphta, no superpower interest. Now, when the EU got savvy that as a reaction, a fundamentalist Muslim country was forming in the heart of Europe, that's when there was a response.
Just last night I saw the news - 15,000 scientists were invited to (yet another) UN conference on the theme 'Save the Earth'. Only 3,000 confirmed their arrival. It's a nice little plush weekend getaway. The other 12,000 responded that there's nothing that can be done about it, and they are just not interested in talking about it anymore!
I am not a prophet of doom. I mean, we all have our individual doomsday scheduled for us, sooner or later. Kick the bucket, and the Earth will go on, with you or without you.
The dinosaurs were wiped out pretty quick, yet life went on. Maybe after us, insects will inherit the Earth. Or rats. Or bacteria. Or maybe this naked ape infested phase will go on for the next few million years. My point is just this - don't delude yourself in thinking there is an ideal external situation that you can create for yourself on this planet. It can't last for very long. Maybe that's too grim for you, but that is the reality.
I guess Dawn was reading your postings and thinking you were an ex!!
Back To Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Sun, Feb 8, 1998 at 09:02:40 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: VP
Subject: Re: negativity, again (Re: Social Harmony?)
Message:
Sure, we all want to love our neighbors and have our neighbors loving us, to live peacefully in harmony with nature, to have a fulfilling family life. The reality is different and almost makes those ideals seem like wishful thinking. People are selfish, money is God, self-gain and short-term interest is dominant.
Could it be that the priesthood of a particular religion is advocating 'their' moral authority in order to sustain itself as monopolistic dispensers of social cohesion? Quite a plausible interpretation.
Dawkins makes a formidable case for selfishness as a biological necessity. Children love their parents for selfish reasons, husbands and wives are together for the selfish reason of procreating their own genes, and its a constant ego/power struggle. Our nature is biological, and when you put too many individuals of a species in too small a living area, inter-species aggression increases. Zoo keepers know this, and they make sure that the cages are not made too small otherwise the animals destroy each other.
And look at us - a planetful of naked apes devouring natural resources at an exponential rate and preying on each other in the process. Different ethnic groups intolerant of each other, nuclear weapons stcokpiled and far from being defused, and the ever present social class struggle of the rich trying to get richer at the poor ones expense controlling this unjust social pecking order by a well paid military and police force, until a revolution or coup breaks out and the poor ones plunder the rich ones in an attempt to get rich themselves. It's far from an ideal world, it has been that way for a long time, but due to the exponential increase of individuals, its becoming more intense every day.
I was watching another documentary some time ago, about Charlemagne in medieval Europe. He was the first great Roman Catholic emperor, had all the blessings of a feeble Pope, and was responsible for vanquishing the Celts and spreading the Catholic religion by sword in Western Europe. The Celts and German tribes worshipped Yggdrasil, the World Tree. I don't say that their religion was superior to the Catholic one. Worshipping a tree might seem strange at first, but when you think about it its not that odd at all. Maybe less so than worshipping a God who made a blood sacrifice of his only Son in order to atone everybody's sin - a guilt feeling that you are supposed to feel for no reason other than that you were born through an act of sexual copulation of your parents that you actually had nothing to do with.
So, when you try to honestly examine your own motives and the motives of these social 'do-gooders' you have to reach a sincere level of being suspended judgement. So many of our attitudes and motives that we call our own have in fact been implanted in us by our social background and education. Maybe its only when you start thinking a little 'different', such as when coming in contact with the beliefs and traditions of another culture, that your own 'programming' becomes more apparent. The world is becoming smaller and smaller every day, though, and no amount of wishful thinking is going to change that fact. We need to become more tolerant of other cultures, religions, ways of thinking and just other people's ideas. However, the sheer number of individuals, and new mouths to feed, increasing every day, makes me skeptical of any natural social harmony in the future. We are at each other's throats, and will be so more in the future, lets face it.
If anyone comes and tries to 'reprogram' me in the interest of a higher ideal, or the supposed benefit of society, I will know that he is a fake and is imposing himself on me just for furthering his/her own self-interest.
Let them try and 'deprogram' my baseball bat first, then.
Nice discourse, Mili. But I don't share your pessimism. I know you live in a part of the world where homicidal hatred, based on the most illogical, historical prejudices, has recently manifested itself in the worst way. Because of that, I can understand your defensiveness and negative view of human beings. But I guess I have more faith in people. I know it's a challenge, but humans are capable of doing wonderful things.
Last night I was watching the opening ceremonies of the Winter Olympics from Japan. There was a delegation of athletes from Bosnia, marching under their new flag, just instituted a few days ago, and I think the flag was being carried by one of their athletes who had been shot twice during the war. But he was there, and so were the other athletes, and so was the flag. I found it inspiring how people can carry on, believing and supporting a multi-religious, diverse society, where people can really live together in peace and respect. I guess this makes me a secular humanist, and, since I think we are coming to the conclusion that is we are going to survive as a species, we need to get beyond our differences, and instead celebrate them, I don't think Dawkins would disagree.
Well, the thing is, JW, there was a Winter Olympics held in Sarajevo, too, some time ago. It didn't do anything to prevent the war from breaking out.
Come on, you can't tell me that you really buy
this 'Reach out and touch somebody's hand' tripe. THAT is really deluding yourself! It's just a show, man. Show business - and somebody, Rupert Murdoch or Aaron Spelling, or Donald Trump is making big moola out of it. Look, I've worked for UNICEF for five years. All they do is produce declarations, papers, charters. It's all bullshit. And they put on this show just so the fat salaries can keep on piling in Chemical Bank. Nobody really wants to get their hands dirty. The funding is there just so the donors can have a little leeway on their tax forms.
Why do you think Sarajevo was being bombed for five years and nobody lifted a finger to stop it? Because there was no oil in Bosnia, that's why! No naphta, no superpower interest. Now, when the EU got savvy that as a reaction, a fundamentalist Muslim country was forming in the heart of Europe, that's when there was a response.
Just last night I saw the news - 15,000 scientists were invited to (yet another) UN conference on the theme 'Save the Earth'. Only 3,000 confirmed their arrival. It's a nice little plush weekend getaway. The other 12,000 responded that there's nothing that can be done about it, and they are just not interested in talking about it anymore!
I am not a prophet of doom. I mean, we all have our individual doomsday scheduled for us, sooner or later. Kick the bucket, and the Earth will go on, with you or without you.
The dinosaurs were wiped out pretty quick, yet life went on. Maybe after us, insects will inherit the Earth. Or rats. Or bacteria. Or maybe this naked ape infested phase will go on for the next few million years. My point is just this - don't delude yourself in thinking there is an ideal external situation that you can create for yourself on this planet. It can't last for very long. Maybe that's too grim for you, but that is the reality.
I guess Dawn was reading your postings and thinking you were an ex!!
Maybe this will surprise you, but I don't think there is such a clear-cut divider between 'ex' and 'non-ex'. Those are just little pigeon-holes that we make, but I think we all pass through various phases of the spectrum at times.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Sun, Feb 8, 1998 at 19:16:40 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: Mili
Subject: Re: Social Harmony?
Message:
Well, sorry you feel that way. It must be tough to have so little hope for the future.
If you look at what I said, it was that out of the bombing of Sarajevo, people have apparently come together, not out of hatred, but out of a desire to live in peace. That's not some wishful thinking, it's actually happening. On the ground, in reality. I agree that the EU really ran from it's responsiblity to do something about the slaughter, and the U.S. did too. I'm not talking about governments, or the U.N. or other groups, I'm just talking about people. That's where it all happens in my opnion.
Also, Mili, how come you're so negative?
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Date: Mon, Feb 9, 1998 at 23:05:57 (EST)
Poster: Brian
Email:
To: Mili
Subject: Re: Milificent (Re: Social Harmony?)
Message:
'I declare I will establish peace in this world.
But what can I do if people do not come to me with love in their hearts, and a keen wish to know peace and truth?'
I wonder why you guys never give the complete quote.
It would have made the sentence it's being used in completely unwieldy, if you're referring to the Home Page.
But you do have a point. Tell you what: put MJ's entire speech that we both chopped that quote out of on www.premie.org and I'll link to it. But you have to give Maharaji full credit for telling that whopper when you do. Those of us who did come to him with love in our hearts and a keen wish to know peace and love ended up financing his extravagant lifestyle, and would prefer a complete refund.
Not you, of course. You gave squat.
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Date: Wed, Feb 11, 1998 at 00:47:38 (EST)
Poster: op
Email:
To: St.
Subject: Re: Milificent (Re: Social Harmony?)
Message:
did you go to Montreal in September of 1995? Watch that video if you think M's an atheist. You've got a few facts wrong.
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Date: Fri, Feb 6, 1998 at 21:38:05 (EST)
Poster: Diver Dan
Email: crothfam@idirect.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Ann Johnson aka Annabanna
Message:
I saw Ann"s name in someones posting. Does anyone Know where she is or could be reached as well as Brian Mc'dermott, Chuck or Jim Kaltwasser ? I suppose this will cause as much contreversey as my last request ! Thanks to those that helped it was greatley appreciated. as to bb well any crowd seems to have one of you, and if it made you feel bigger then thats OK
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Date: Fri, Feb 6, 1998 at 23:22:04 (EST)
Poster: * adios
Email: BB
To: Diver Dan
Subject: amigo (Re: Ann Johnson aka Annabanna)
Message:
Hello and good luck Dan.
Sure you can go get involved.
We have free will.
I really don't want to watch you walk that way so I won't
be reading any more of your posts. It will just
bother me.
I will mark my posts like this so you can avoid mine.
here is the mark *
example;
*Hindu of the Year
goodbye devotee dan.
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Date: Sat, Feb 7, 1998 at 00:28:50 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: Diver Dan
Subject: Re: Ann Johnson aka Annabanna
Message:
I saw Ann's name in someones posting. Does anyone Know where she is or could be reached as well as Brian Mc'dermott, Chuck or Jim Kaltwasser ? I suppose this will cause as much contreversey as my last request ! Thanks to those that helped it was greatley appreciated. as to bb well any crowd seems to have one of you, and if it made you feel bigger then thats OK
Ann Johnson. Oh yes. I really liked Ann, despite her intense neurosis. She's that woman who, at the advice of mahatmas and national coordinators, abandoned her husband an children to become an ashram premie and then an initiator. She carried around a lot of guilt about that. I don't know where she is, but I hope she stopped running away from her life and went back to her family.
I have heard that Brian McDermot is married and still involved to some extent with premiedom. Don't know about those other people.
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Date: Fri, Feb 6, 1998 at 20:27:04 (EST)
Poster: anon premie
Email:
To: Everyone
Subject: brainwave analysisT
Message:
During trials of new brainwave analysing software it was discovered that by practicing holy name technique whilst transmitting brainwave data resulted in a dramatic alteration in readout...altering the consciousness of subject into a total relaxed state.
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Date: Fri, Feb 6, 1998 at 20:39:53 (EST)
Poster: Anon
Email:
To: anon premie
Subject: Re: brainwave analysisT
Message:
During trials of new brainwave analysing software it was discovered that by practicing holy name technique whilst transmitting brainwave data resulted in a dramatic alteration in readout...altering the consciousness of subject into a total relaxed state.
So what?
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Date: Fri, Feb 6, 1998 at 20:41:39 (EST)
Poster: John K.
Email:
To: anon premie
Subject: Re: brainwave analysisT
Message:
I am a very argumentative person, it's not that I am trying to find 'the negative' in everything, having said that...dear premie anon:
Okay, so your in a totally relaxed state, I realize that following my breath relaxes me, makes me verrry relaxed, but don't you ever want something more than simply to feel relaxed?
I do. I want more from life than simply to feel relaxed. It's a wonderful technique for me; however, I think it works very differently on different personality types. It works very well for me and the type of person I am, but I am a very laid back person already, I don't really need a technique to relax.
Is there anything more that M teaches besides a technique to relax?
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Date: Fri, Feb 6, 1998 at 22:02:45 (EST)
Poster: Sir David
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: anon premie
Subject: Re: brainwave analysisT
Message:
This is actually nothing new. I mentioned this on the forum a few weeks ago. I said that meditation on the breath changes brainwave patterns. This is not surprising to anyone who meditates and is not exclusive to Maharaji.
In fact, the info I received was done on non premies who had never even heard of Maharaji.
I also said that practising the nectar technique releases endorphines into the brain and body.
All very well and good but are you going to tell us that the endorphines are Maharaji's grace?
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Date: Fri, Feb 6, 1998 at 23:11:19 (EST)
Poster: me
Email:
To: Sir David
Subject: Re: brainwave analysisT
Message:
I think endorphins are everyones grace.I dont think I could have accessed all these techniques without M its like my music..the computer enables me to make music it would take a long time to perfect on a traditional instrument so M enabled me to get a grip my over emotional and out of control thoughts... well M and Josh my instructor that is......... in three short weeks. I might have spent a whole lifetime perfecting that without their fastrack system......and as I never have a penny I dont think they did it to get hold of my dosh
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Date: Fri, Feb 6, 1998 at 23:33:09 (EST)
Poster: overendorphed premie
Email:
To: Sir David
Subject: Re: brainwave analysisT
Message:
endorphins are everyones grace of course
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Date: Sat, Feb 7, 1998 at 09:21:33 (EST)
Poster: lg
Email:
To: anon premie
Subject: Re: brainwave analysisT
Message:
During trials of new brainwave analysing software it was discovered that by practicing holy name technique whilst transmitting brainwave data resulted in a dramatic alteration in readout...altering the consciousness of subject into a total relaxed state.
This should be re-written:
During trials... by practicing ANY meditation technique...
Sorry! Ignorance again.
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Date: Fri, Feb 6, 1998 at 20:05:47 (EST)
Poster: StephenB
Email: brunston@tde.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Proposal for Chat Room
Message:
I have not received any response to speak of for a chat room.
I do propose Mondays Nights at 5:00 EST (7:00 MST)
Please let me know if there is any interest so I don't end up one more place alone......:)
For instruction on getting there see post of a few days ago..or ask for more info here.
Stephen B
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Date: Fri, Feb 6, 1998 at 20:35:30 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: StephenB
Subject: Re: Proposal for Chat Room
Message:
I have not received any response to speak of for a chat room.
I do propose Mondays Nights at 5:00 EST (7:00 MST)
Please let me know if there is any interest so I don't end up one more place alone......:)
For instruction on getting there see post of a few days ago..or ask for more info here.
Stephen B
I would prefer to use the forum rather than a chat room, but other people may well be interested. (Just to let you know!)
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Date: Fri, Feb 6, 1998 at 20:45:30 (EST)
Poster: John K.
Email:
To: StephenB
Subject: Re: Proposal for Chat Room
Message:
Yeah, I feel like Katie does about it.
Actually, I am deathly afraid of 'real time chat'. I would feel so 'exposed', you know?
No?
What the hell is a chat room anyway,that is different from this?
Sorry, just my argumentative nature coming through again. Aren't we always alone anyway no matter what we do?
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Date: Fri, Feb 6, 1998 at 22:29:00 (EST)
Poster: Sir David
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: John K.
Subject: Re: Proposal for Chat Room
Message:
No, we're never alone. God, the Power, whatever you call it is always with us 110%.
We're never alone - it just seems that way.
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Date: Sat, Feb 7, 1998 at 15:48:52 (EST)
Poster: StephenB
Email: brunston@tde.com
To: Sir David
Subject: Re: Proposal for Chat Room
Message:
No, we're never alone. God, the Power, whatever you call it is always with us 110%.
We're never alone - it just seems that way.
Thanks for that perspective Sir David, you are right. We never have to be alone again. Internally as well as in our communities. One of the things that I hated about DLM was the constant devaluation of personal needs. If one ever admitted emotional needs (companionship, sexuallity,
playfullness, ect) the sharks would gather: YOUR IN YOUR MIND..........GIVE IT UP.........MEDITATE TILL IT GOES AWAY..... in spite of the claim to love and support
we were emotioanlly assaluted to be needless. I admit it now..I need friends. My happiness is grounded in interdependancy with others, in my marriage, family, and community, that interdenpendency and vulnerability is a higher value than independence and self suficency. That is one of the real lessons I have taken away from my DLM days. I cannot escape life focused on some narcisistic ideal of "realizing God". The constant practice of internal meditaion can be the ultimate in narcisisim (that is not to denigrate the good and positive effects of a balanced attitude to meditation, which I do believe in)
Happily, ultimatly, I am NOT alone.
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Date: Sat, Feb 7, 1998 at 15:52:46 (EST)
Poster: StephenB
Email: brunston@tde.com
To: John K.
Subject: John-Why it's different (Re: Proposal for Chat Room)
Message:
Acttually I think these kind of boards suck. Real time chat is more like a conversation. It is not recorded for all to see, is more private, and here there is a certain amount of calculation in the replies, rather than gut reactions.
I also am greatfule for the replies....I won't waste my time.
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Date: Sat, Feb 7, 1998 at 15:54:01 (EST)
Poster: StephenB
Email:
To: Katie
Subject: Thanks for the response (Re: Proposal for Chat Room)
Message:
Thanks for the info Katie...you have saved me some time. Let me know if you folks ever change you mind.
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Date: Sun, Feb 8, 1998 at 03:31:13 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@Mail.trib.net
To: StephenB
Subject: Re: I hope you keep posting (Re: Proposal for Chat Room)
Message:
Thanks for the info Katie...you have saved me some time. Let me know if you folks ever change you mind.
Hi Stephen - I hope you keep posting anyway, even though the forum might not be your first choice!
I read what you wrote to John below, and here's my opinion. It's actually a lot easier for me to communicate this way (written), rather than in a chat room (which is also written, but more spontaneously - like speaking). I don't particularly like to talk on the phone either. If I can't see the person face to face, it's harder for me to communicate. I tend to speak hesitantly, anyway. I like the time that the forum gives me to express exactly what I want to say (and to be able to erase stuff that I don't say correctly.) But I understand why you (and other people) would prefer the chat room - I am sure it just depends on your communication style.
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Date: Sun, Feb 8, 1998 at 12:31:34 (EST)
Poster: Sir David
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: StephenB
Subject: Re: Proposal for Chat Room
Message:
Good to see that you're thinking for yourself again and not swallowing the BS. See my post above about relationships.
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Date: Fri, Feb 6, 1998 at 14:19:13 (EST)
Poster: Rick
Email: rtaraday@hotmail.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Jagdeo
Message:
What's the evidence on Jagdeo molesting children?
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Date: Fri, Feb 6, 1998 at 15:19:49 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Rick
Subject: Re: Jagdeo
Message:
What's the evidence on Jagdeo molesting children?
I'm not sure what constitutes "evidence", but the reason I believe it happened is this:
Two women have come forward - one in the old forum (Forum 1) and one by e-mail - and said they were molested by them as children. I know one of the women was approximately 7 years old and up when this happened; I'm not sure how old the other one was (pre-teenager?).
I have communicated with one woman directly by e-mail and she corroborates the other woman's story (plus some other stuff). Also, I think there are other women around who could back up their story, but I'm not sure exactly who and where they are.
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Date: Fri, Feb 6, 1998 at 15:49:14 (EST)
Poster: Rick
Email: rtaraday@hotmail
To: Katie
Subject: Re: Jagdeo
Message:
What's the evidence on Jagdeo molesting children?
I'm not sure what constitutes 'evidence', but the reason I believe it happened is this:
Two women have come forward - one in the old forum (Forum 1) and one by e-mail - and said they were molested by them as children. I know one of the women was approximately 7 years old and up when this happened; I'm not sure how old the other one was (pre-teenager?).
I have communicated with one woman directly by e-mail and she corroborates the other woman's story (plus some other stuff). Also, I think there are other women around who could back up their story, but I'm not sure exactly who and where they are.
Thanks, Katie. It isn't hard to believe.
I remember a strange incident in a knowledge review, when a premie asked Jagdeo to clarify the order in which to practice the meditation techniques. Jagdeo confused the order we'd been taught for several years. When another premie pointed that out, Jagdeo insisted he was correct. Other premies spoke up that the order was incorrect, and at some point I could see Jagdeo realized he was wrong and that he'd insisted so heavily that now he was in a bind. Instead of just copping to being wrong, he declared that this was the new order to practice the techniques and that we shouldn't question maharaji. It was so wierd and dishonest but to question such a basic quality in Jagdeo, would have been to question maharaji and ultimately ourselves. So all the premies, including myself, went along with Jagdeo and starting meditating differently.
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Date: Fri, Feb 6, 1998 at 17:05:23 (EST)
Poster: Sir David
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: The common people
Subject: Re: Jagdeo
Message:
Just in case anyone's interested, I'm all for attacking someone who has molested children or been nasty to people. What I think we can't do is attack people simply for following Maharaji.
After all, we used to follow him ourselves.
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Date: Fri, Feb 6, 1998 at 17:13:58 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: Rick
Subject: Re: Jagdeo
Message:
What's the evidence on Jagdeo molesting children?
The other amazing thing was that at least one of these women reported to PAM that Jagdeo was molesting little girlson a regular basis (mostly by getting little girls to go privately into his room), and apparently little, if anything was done about it. Some of these incidences occurred in Miami. I was community coordinator in Miami after that and it was never mentioned to me by anyone that kids should be supervised with Jagdeo or anything else. This, despite the fact that Jagdeo was in Miami for much of that time, giving blissful satsang to the community and at big festival programs. I just hope that I never inadvertently gave Jagdeo access to his victims.
Just like with the other mahatmas who misbehaved sexually or criminally (Fakiranand, Parolkanand, Tejeswaranand) DLM and the big M never took responsibility for what these people were doing, and this is especially irresponsible because they were doing it to premies and their families who were supposed to trust these people and look upon them as realized souls, when they were sometimes just dirty old men.
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Date: Fri, Feb 6, 1998 at 20:49:53 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Sir David
Subject: Re: Jagdeo
Message:
Just in case anyone's interested, I'm all for attacking someone who has molested children or been nasty to people. What I think we can't do is attack people simply for following Maharaji.
After all, we used to follow him ourselves.
Dear David - I agree with you that we should not attack people simply for following Maharaji and for saying so. I think it's OK to answer them by telling why we don't follow M. As for people like Jagdeo - I'm not sure what to say. It scares me that he's apparently still at large in the Far East. I believe that the man may be mentally ill, and although he may be capable of functional behavior most of the time, he should be supervised when around younger children or teenagers.
The problems is usually that people who molest other people have been molested themselves. Ultimately everyone has to take responsibility for their own behavior (including going to jail or being confined in some other way, if that's necessary), but behavior such as child molestation, or nastiness doesn't necessarily mean the person is evil to the core (I think you know this, too.) I just hope that JagDeo is in a supervised position now, where he cannot hurt any more kids (in whatever situation he finds himself in).
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Date: Fri, Feb 6, 1998 at 21:48:07 (EST)
Poster: Sir David
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: Katie
Subject: Re: Jagdeo
Message:
I don't know the full background to Jagdao's history but if he lived in a repressive enviroment where sexual relationships were considered to be a waste of time, as in hard core Hinduism and being a celibate Mahatma following Maharaji, then there's a good chance that his paedophelia resulted from this repressive regime.
In the Catholic church where priests are celibate, often the result is that priests turn to paedophelia because they cannot turn off their sexual desire and the natural familiarity of children makes it easy to get close to them.
Slightly off the topic, this could be one of the main causes of paedophelia; an adult is unable to have a sexual relationship with another adult, through religious or psychological reasons and because children are easy to get on with. Priests and Mahatmas like Jagdao (who was very childlike) are often entrusted with people's children because the parents think the man will be a good influence.
The priest or Mahatma is secretly sexually frustrated although the parents probably think he's a saint. His sexual desire manifests towards the children because these are the only people he can get close to. The "saintly" man cannot get close to women (or gay men if he's gay) because his sainthood would be in jepardy. So he naturally becomes a paedophile.
I think there must have been a lot of Mahatmas who turned out this way. They were the victim of a repressive regime as much as the abused children were.
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Date: Fri, Feb 6, 1998 at 23:38:32 (EST)
Poster: VP
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: Jagdeo
Message:
What's the evidence on Jagdeo molesting children?
The other amazing thing was that at least one of these women reported to PAM that Jagdeo was molesting little girlson a regular basis (mostly by getting little girls to go privately into his room), and apparently little, if anything was done about it. Some of these incidences occurred in Miami. I was community coordinator in Miami after that and it was never mentioned to me by anyone that kids should be supervised with Jagdeo or anything else. This, despite the fact that Jagdeo was in Miami for much of that time, giving blissful satsang to the community and at big festival programs. I just hope that I never inadvertently gave Jagdeo access to his victims.
Just like with the other mahatmas who misbehaved sexually or criminally (Fakiranand, Parolkanand, Tejeswaranand) DLM and the big M never took responsibility for what these people were doing, and this is especially irresponsible because they were doing it to premies and their families who were supposed to trust these people and look upon them as realized souls, when they were sometimes just dirty old men.
JW, Please don't feel responsible for someone else's criminal behavior. Besides, how could you prevent something that you weren't even made aware of? VP
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Date: Sat, Feb 7, 1998 at 00:31:00 (EST)
Poster: Joy
Email: Bluebirdd@aol.com
To: VP
Subject: Re: Jagdeo
Message:
I think part of the problem was that these Mahatmas came from an Eastern society, which has very strict and repressive rules about how men and women can interact. I do not doubt that they probably behaved themselves there. Then, when they get to the sexually liberated West, and these societal controls are now gone, and there are all these young "sisters" looking up to them, and anxious to spend time with them (since they're holy men) they just lose control, perhaps because their socially imposed morals do not apply here, or so they think. Maybe they thought there was nothing wrong with it, or that they could get away with it, since they were in a different, and more liberal society, and were also on power trips enabled by Maharaji.
I'm sure that Maharaji's obsession with materialism is also a backlash from having been born in one of the most poverty stricken countries on the planet. I have seen the same phenomenon in other immigrants from poorer countries. When they get to this country, money is ALL, virtually nothing becomes more important.
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Date: Sat, Feb 7, 1998 at 05:59:50 (EST)
Poster: Mr Ex
Email:
To: Joy
Subject: Re: Jagdeo
Message:
M's present full-time instructors have the same
problem.
I personally know of 2 women having been abused by
western instructors.
1 of the cases was reported to PAM and to m.
He doesn't care.
Do you want the names of those well known instructors?
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Date: Sat, Feb 7, 1998 at 10:39:46 (EST)
Poster: Sir David
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: Joy
Subject: Re: Jagdeo
Message:
Very true what you said there. But you also get the scenario that I mentioned above. I think if a person is denied sexual relationships with an adult for years and years then it can become horribly warped, for some people.
The materialism thing is very true. But there is a slight difference in that Maharaji came from a wealthy high caste family. I don't understand his materialism. For years I thought it was a lila, that the Lord had come with more power than ever before so he wanted only the best this world could offer. I think many of us thought that. Now Maharaji's materialism is something alien and incomprehensible to me. I wonder if he will ever realise that living in opulence from the fruits of his devotees deters many people from wanting to follow him. Perhaps he is thinking that the new generation of premies will see him as the Lord again. I will be very interested what the Lord who has come to save the world will have to say about the ensuing dangerous war between our two countries and Iraq.
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Date: Sat, Feb 7, 1998 at 11:38:22 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email: joger02@aol.com
To: Sir David
Subject: Re: Jagdeo
Message:
The materialism thing is very true. But there is a slight difference in that Maharaji came from a wealthy high caste family. I don't understand his materialism. For years I thought it was a lila, that the Lord had come with more power than ever before so he wanted only the best this world could offer. I think many of us thought that. Now Maharaji's materialism is something alien and incomprehensible to me. I wonder if he will ever realise that living in opulence from the fruits of his devotees deters many people from wanting to follow him. Perhaps he is thinking that the new generation of premies will see him as the Lord again. I will be very interested what the Lord who has come to save the world will have to say about the ensuing dangerous war between our two countries and Iraq.
I don't recall Maharaji ever had much to say about world/current events. I don't believe he ever understood them and lived in such an unreal world that he had no idea how such events affect real, ordinary people. I can recall him making outrageously stupid comments about such things as the nuclear disarmament movement (he made fun of it as worthless) and the oil embargo, his understanding or which was extremely screwed up -- that's when he said the reason for an oil shortage was because there hadn't been enough dinosaurs. Really, that's the stupid thing he said. I think he got most of his information from television and he used to talk about how he never read a book, and I doubt that has changed much.
But as to his incredible materialism, I think it has become a deep-rooted psychological thing for him. Like some other people, Maharaji feels he needs the best of everything to help him define who he is. Since I believe he has doubts that he really is god, I think if he gets lots of the best the world has to offer materially, it is an indication to him that he must be somebody important, and if his devotees give him these things, they must be devoted, and he must be worthy of devotion. Right?
But like sex and alcohol, if you are using material things and an opulent lifestyle for psychological purposes, it becomes a never-ending treadmill. There is never enough. I think that's why it's such a never-ending need for him to have the lastest plane, all the latest and most luxury cars, and residences (with marble and gold plumbing fixtures) all over the world. More than just plain greed, it has become a psychological need.
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Date: Sat, Feb 7, 1998 at 11:59:06 (EST)
Poster: Sir David
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: Mr Ex
Subject: Re: Jagdeo
Message:
Mr Ex wrote regarding women who had been abused by certain instructors:
"Do you want the names of those well known instructors?"
The answer is yes. It won't mean much to me unless they're so well known that I remember them from the eighties but I'm sure people watching this site would like to know. However there could be a danger of being sued, or would there??
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Date: Sat, Feb 7, 1998 at 12:58:35 (EST)
Poster: Joy
Email: Bluebirdd@aol.com
To: Mr Ex
Subject: Re: Jagdeo
Message:
M's present full-time instructors have the same
problem.
I personally know of 2 women having been abused by
western instructors.
1 of the cases was reported to PAM and to m.
He doesn't care.
Do you want the names of those well known instructors?
Yes, sure, I would like the names of those instructors. If you don't want to post them to the site, you can e-mail them to me. But I think you should post them, as it might serve as a deterrent for any future abuses. And I'm not surprised that M. doesn't care. It should be painfully obvious by now to anyone who reads this site or has been a premie that M. doesn't care about anyone but himself.
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Date: Mon, Feb 9, 1998 at 10:52:50 (EST)
Poster: Mr Ex
Email:
To: Sir David
Subject: Instructors raping premies? (Re: Jagdeo)
Message:
>Mr Ex wrote regarding women who had been
>abused by certain instructors:
>Do you want the names of those well known
>instructors?'
>The answer is yes. It won't mean much to me unless
>they're so well known that I remember them from the
>eighties but I'm sure people watching this site would like
>to know. However there could be a danger of being sued,
>or would there??
I wouldn’t want to be sued by those people that should be
sued, and will be I hope.
The thing is that these guys can’t be sued for the moment
for technical reasons.
Complain has already be filed to authorities for one of them.
For the 2nd case, the abused woman is in such a psychological
wreck that she can’t do anything for the moment.
My feeling is that many women have been recently abused by those
dangerous guys.
Why?
I don’t personally know that many premies. Amongst the few I
know well enough to receive that kind of confidence, there are
2 cases of that type.
What should I think?
My advice for female premies : keep as far as you can from
those guys.
Listen to them if you like.
If you find them very seductive, fine. Some really are.
NEVER invite them home.
Never stay alone with ANY of them.
Be extremely careful with those of the crooner type,
specially with Rody Schmull.
These guys sing too well to be true.
Be extremely careful with those of the ‘doctor’ type,
specially with John Horton.
These guys might care too much for you.
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Date: Mon, Feb 9, 1998 at 12:10:43 (EST)
Poster: Mr Ex
Email:
To: Materialist frenzy ...
Subject: Re: Jagdeo
Message:
There are some hints to understand his frenzy about materialism :
1/ Megalomania/paranoia : don’t forget that type of guru is of the paranoid type, according to psychologists. He is absolutely convinced he is the Almighty in person for all the reasons we all know (pre-psychotic).
2/ He is very small in size : ---> inferiority complex?
3/ He is the youngest of 4 sons.
4/ He is Indian and was brought up in a quite poor environment. Lots of Indians (and from other nationalities) are after material success. He has something to prove to his mother after all.
5/ God deserves everything. That’s been his leitmotiv for decades. He is devoted to Himself.
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Date: Mon, Feb 9, 1998 at 13:14:57 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: Mr Ex
Subject: Re: Instructors raping premies? (Re: Jagdeo)
Message:
Just curious. I know John Horton and have no doubt that those puppy-dog eyes and his "bedside manner" could be attractive to a lot of women. But what country is "Rody Scmull" from. Is he an American like "Dr. John"?
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Date: Mon, Feb 9, 1998 at 13:38:20 (EST)
Poster: Mr Ex
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: Instructors raping premies? (Re: Jagdeo)
Message:
Rody is from Netherlands.
He's been an instructor for almost 20 years
One of the PAM ....
BTW: did you got my emails Joe? I might have a problem with
my provider. I never got any answer from you.
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Date: Mon, Feb 9, 1998 at 16:25:48 (EST)
Poster: VP
Email:
To: Mr Ex and JW
Subject: Re: Instructors raping premies? (Re: Jagdeo)
Message:
Have you heard of any of these guys raping or abusing these women during initiation sessions, or is all of this stuff happening later on?
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Date: Mon, Feb 9, 1998 at 18:07:43 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: Mr Ex
Subject: Re: Instructors raping premies? (Re: Jagdeo)
Message:
Rody is from Netherlands.
He's been an instructor for almost 20 years
One of the PAM ....
BTW: did you got my emails Joe? I might have a problem with
my provider. I never got any answer from you.
Are you talking about e-mails recently? I haven't gotten anything from you in a few months. When did you send them?
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Date: Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 06:16:45 (EST)
Poster: Mr Ex
Email:
To: VP
Subject: Re: Instructors raping premies? (Re: Jagdeo)
Message:
>Have you heard of any of these guys raping or
>abusing these women during initiation sessions,
>or is all of this stuff happening later on?
I’ve never heard of instructors abusing a woman
during k session.
They did it a long time afterwards, with very
devoted female premies.
You can imagine how easy it is to mix personal
feelings with devotion to a fantasy.
And the result?
In a way I can say they’ve been lucky to suffer this, because it caused such a damage that they had to question the whole thing, including their relationship with m, and
that helped them to leave the cult.
But what a pain.
You can’t leave this without pain anyway, specially if you’re devoted wholeheartedly.
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Date: Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 19:41:08 (EST)
Poster: VP
Email:
To: Mr Ex
Subject: Re: Instructors raping premies? (Re: Jagdeo)
Message:
>Have you heard of any of these guys raping or
>abusing these women during initiation sessions,
>or is all of this stuff happening later on?
I’ve never heard of instructors abusing a woman
during k session.
They did it a long time afterwards, with very
devoted female premies.
You can imagine how easy it is to mix personal
feelings with devotion to a fantasy.
And the result?
In a way I can say they’ve been lucky to suffer this, because it caused such a damage that they had to question the whole thing, including their relationship with m, and
that helped them to leave the cult.
But what a pain.
You can’t leave this without pain anyway, specially if you’re devoted wholeheartedly.
Thanks for that answer. I hope that this doesn't happen to anyone else. What a terrible way to learn the truth about this! I hope those bastards are stopped.
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Date: Fri, Feb 6, 1998 at 11:37:30 (EST)
Poster: Selena
Email:
To: Everyone
Subject: prmie kids beoming premies
Message:
Bongos posting got me thinking - if he really is 14, that is: I wonder how many of the premies have kids who received knowledge? There was a certain percentage of 20 something people in Long Beach. Not many, maybe 5% of the whole crowd of 40 or older boomers, and I'll bet most of the younger crowd were kids of premies. I heard one mother proudly announce that she had 5 kids and 3 of them received knowledge. I know the woman who married B. McDermott has 2 kids who did.
I am SO glad my children were independent thinkers. They liked listening to his tapes, they have an experience of spirituality and understand what the K is that M talks about. My son said over Christmas "why do premies always talk about receiving knowledge when everyone already has it?" I was really happy to hear that.
Anyone have thoughts on parents that encourage their kids to get involved?
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Date: Fri, Feb 6, 1998 at 11:46:29 (EST)
Poster: Mr Ex
Email:
To: Selena
Subject: Re: prmie kids beoming premies
Message:
Don't forget that 90% of the premies leave the cult,
sooner or later!
Same thing for children.
I know some who received k when very young, and are still into it ....
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Date: Fri, Feb 6, 1998 at 15:17:41 (EST)
Poster: VP
Email:
To: Selena
Subject: Re: prmie kids beoming premies
Message:
Selena,
I had some older family members-not my parents who got me involved and that is similar. These family members have also tried to influence their children with little success. I was older and I guess I was more gullible. I like to think that their children had more opportunity to see the negative aspects of the lifestyle being there 24 hours a day. One of them said to me once, "Oh, yeah, Maharaji, now there's a real sincere guy." (Sarcastically) I know that he gets mail from EV and throws it away. It's probably the same as in any other religion in that the parents try to get the kids to believe what they do.
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Date: Sat, Feb 7, 1998 at 07:22:15 (EST)
Poster: Seymour
Email: seymour_t@rocketmail.com
To: Selena
Subject: Re: prmie kids beoming premies
Message:
Hello Selena, I only look in on the site occasionally and this time it was great to read that you have decided to abandon premiedom and join the land of the feethinkers where open, honest discussion is one of our chosen methods in the search for Truth . You , along with the rest of us ex-premies have escaped from what seemed like a safe haven but is just a cul-de-sac in which we all lived on the promise that if we stayed there long enough the ‘MotherShip’ would arrived from the other side of the Universe and beam us away to Permanent Nirvana, Satchitanand ,cosmic realisation or whatever. Although the cul-de-sac was a cosy place to be compared to the precarious, unpredictable world outside it was a digression on the path to truth. Now that you have managed to break through the psychological barriers that have at some time held us all, you can carry on your journey with greater vigilance and hopefully never get enticed into another of the many cul-de-sacs that seem to be having a nice street party but from which it is very hard to leave.
I hope you enjoy the Forum.
Cheers from Seymour.
P.S. re: your topic on children. I hope that we have all learnt not to pass our superstitions or irrational beliefs on to our children and encourage them to search for meaning in this life but doubt everything.
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Date: Thurs, Feb 5, 1998 at 21:44:44 (EST)
Poster: bongo
Email:
To: Everyone
Subject: happy premie
Message:
one happy not brainwashed premie of fourteen years says to dan we are all around you and still perfectly normal......
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Date: Thurs, Feb 5, 1998 at 22:11:23 (EST)
Poster: lover of whom?
Email: bill burke
To: bongo
Subject: lover of a fiction. (Re: happy premie)
Message:
Oh Hooray, another athiest cheering on another athiest.
Great, maharaji has all but admitted that he is not god
and yet he also plays the master/god and you are just
so lucky to be a part of the magic.
Isn't it a wonderful thing to not recognise the reality
of a greater thing and instead play along with the
emperor with his new clothes. The clothes that don't
exist. I'm sure your mother is so proud of her son
who is the great athiest.
Proudly saluteing someone who is asking, I mean requireing
that you look at him as the one who is worthy of worship,
service,adoration,support,and telling you all manner of
things that are just flat out incorrect. Being deaf,
you only hear it as you allow. Being blind, you only see
it as you allow. When you die, wont you be proud to
see how you missed the boat in life and instead
watched a fake lord play out his hallucination to your
clapping.
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Date: Fri, Feb 6, 1998 at 00:26:09 (EST)
Poster: Sir David
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: lover of whom?
Subject: Re: lover of a fiction. (Re: happy premie)
Message:
Bill Burke wrote to a happy premie:
"I'm sure your mother is so proud of her son who is the great athiest. When you die, wont you be proud to see how you missed the boat in life and instead watched a fake lord play out his hallucination to your clapping."
I don't agree with what you've written here about the happy premie. My personal feelings are that it's fine to critisise Maharaji because he's put himself there in that position, that can be critisised. But a person who sincerely wants to follow maharaji is just a person like you or I, who is trying to do what he feels is the right thing and I don't think he/she deserves or should even get our critisism.
Who are we to tell others what path to tread? Who are we to tell others whether their Mother should or should not be proud of them and definitely, nobody here has a right to tell someone what they should be feeling upon their death.
While I agree with most of the rest of your post, Bill, this slagging off of the happy premie by you really grates on me and sticks in my throat. These are my feelings...
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Date: Fri, Feb 6, 1998 at 01:11:40 (EST)
Poster: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net
To: bongo
Subject: Re: happy premie
Message:
In my experience, there is no such thing as a not brainwashed premie.
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Date: Fri, Feb 6, 1998 at 01:12:15 (EST)
Poster: G
Email:
To: lover of whom?
Subject: Re: lover of a fiction. (Re: happy premie)
Message:
Bill Burke:
legend of clarity
in his proud mind.
poet to the electron screen
new promises to keep
stuck to the earth
but floating in time
he caught his boat of life
the Titanic in his twilight zone.
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Date: Fri, Feb 6, 1998 at 10:19:56 (EST)
Poster: John K.
Email:
To: Sir David
Subject: Re: lover of a fiction. (Re: happy premie)
Message:
David:
Normally, I would agree with you, and maybe I do to a certain extent, in saying that everyone should be allowed to believe whatever they want freely, without criticism etc.; howsomeever, given the unique nature of this web site, I don't think burke is entirely out of line in wailing away at the bongo happy premie.
After all, if the bongo happy premie really IS bongo happy, burke's words will not touch the bongo happy premie.
In my astute analysis, I believe burke was saying these words for his own benefit more than the bongo happy premie. This goes back to the belief that the best advice we give is what we should listen to ourselves.
The other thing is that this is the web site for the EX-premies. Ex's who feel these feelings like burke does should be allowed to post them.
bongo happy premies should be expected to be questioned and challenged on this site to a certain extent.
I still don't understand why premies don't have their own web site.
What, are they all too technologically challenged to be able to do it?
And if they are able to, and they want to post to a web site as apparently they do if they post here, then why don't they just get their own?
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Date: Fri, Feb 6, 1998 at 10:27:51 (EST)
Poster: Hello
Email: bb
To: Sir David
Subject: Sir David (Re: happy premie)
Message:
Hello there Sir David.
I thought that was Mili.
I see 14 years so maybe not.
Either way, bongo is no stranger to this site and
if they are going to make it appear as if there is no
major deception and life ruining effect from maharaji's
influence I am here to say otherwise.
Anyone who wants to play the fraud of 'normal'
victim of maharaji to try and decieve the new guy
Dan is definately a target of straight talk and some idea
of 'what he feels is right' is no excuse.
We do no favor to someone to just let them be trapped
and adopt a 'it's none of my business' approach.
This guy Dan is poking around here and what a mean
thing to do to imply that it's all just 'normal'
and 'happy'. THAT is the meanspirited thing.
THAT is the worst sort of mistreatment going on in this
forum right now.
THAT is why it pissed me off so bad.
THAT to me is just the worst thing you could do to someone
like Dan is to not warn him and instead, do like the person
who started this thread. I'll bet they were lying and
they are not a 14 year premie. That would make them
recieve knowledge in 84. Or 83. Someone has used that
bongo name here before and they were old timers.
By the way, thank you for being so honest about nectar
and meditation. Your experience and it's results are
so good to know because they confirm the reality that
we don't become some otherwordly god drenched constant
godhead person. You are down to earth and real.
Maharaji would have us believe that he is in some
'OTHER' place and he is lord and he is without equal.
There are NO equals around him. NO one is allowed to
act like a peer. He, in his narcissism and hindu god ego
cannot leave the image of superiority.
There is no god but him. For his victims, they are condemed
to a life of trying to love a lord that is just
a hindu pretender. He hopes we will leave him do his
thing and have his fantasy world and let him waste the
lives of his followers like all the hindu guru's do.
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Date: Fri, Feb 6, 1998 at 10:48:00 (EST)
Poster: Hello there
Email: bb
To: G
Subject: CD (Re: happy premie)
Message:
Hello CD.
Look at this.
If you poke through the new testament you see all the
stuff yeshua/jesus said.
I mean just mark,luke,john and matt.
The big commandment was love god and love others.
So how does that apply in maharaji's world?
He said in the video I just saw that relationships
are not it. and family is not it. but that 'fulfillment'
was going inside to 'get away' from it all for a while.
Well instead of loving god he wants us to 'respect'
(love) the master. Kiss his holy feet.
Then, instead of finding love in our family and
friends and god, we are led into the hindu misperception
of life that we are supposed to attain some fantasy
'place' and have god realisation and live for the master.
STILL the same trip as before.
HE wont humble himself to god and recognise his need
to beg redemption from god.
So he will be brought down the hard way. Fine with me.
I am fine with helping to crush his trip.
He comes from the idea that is all illusion.
He plays god and we play devotees.
The game is a horror.
If maharaji is not god then in fact we are athiests.
Nice to find out huh?
When all men are equal and flawed and the only
commandment really is to love god and love others and
ourselves, then the whole distraction of maharaji
has been a complete waste of a precious life.
Some people here are saying how they had 'good friends'.
Well ALL young people make good companions usually.
I missed so many times with my family and friends and
THEY were really good folks.
All to follow the lord. If he had come to his mid life
crisis and then made a turn to honesty I would have a
easier time with this whole issue but he is brazenly
pursueing the lord master angle all the more.
Well, that means war.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Fri, Feb 6, 1998 at 10:59:11 (EST)
Poster: Selena
Email:
To: everyone
Subject: Re: lover of a fiction. (Re: happy premie)
Message:
I don't know Sir David. Is it really harmless to let this cult worship stuff be posted here without criticism? Having recently escaped I am not so sure. What are they reading this site for if not because they have doubts?
And since M is always asking the premies to bring people to videos and recruit more members, then there is obviously a sinister side someone posting here about how beautiful it is to be a premie.
I had a similar conversation with a premie recently, she kept saying what's the harm? she pointed out that neither one of us ever gave much money (I never could I was too broke traveling all over the place to those programs, etc.. while somehow attempting to support a family on nothing)
she also said stuff like, it's only a personal thing between her and M and the meditation, she doesn't try to get anyone else to get involved, etc.. Yet I know one person for sure that she invited to a video. Then there was her reason for always telling me about the events, she "understood my pain and wanted to help" - yeah ok, but when what I really needed was a friend to be honest and talk to me about the stuff I cared about or needed to hear, forget it, she wouldn't do it. I don't think my story is an isolated one. I think a lot of premies just don't see the whole picture and I am wondering if it isn't almost a responsibility of this site to point out some of the not so wonderful things about M's world, the World of Knowledge as he is calling it this year. I know I was relieved to read the criticisms here.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Fri, Feb 6, 1998 at 14:41:20 (EST)
Poster: bftb
Email:
To: Mickey the Pharisee
Subject: Re: happy premie
Message:
In your opinion;who does the brainwashing and do you think it's intentionally done or inadvertant?
Back To Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Fri, Feb 6, 1998 at 14:55:44 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email:
To: Hello there
Subject: Re: happy premie
Message:
Hello CD.
Look at this.
If you poke through the new testament you see all the
stuff yeshua/jesus said.
I mean just mark,luke,john and matt.
The big commandment was love god and love others.
So how does that apply in maharaji's world?
He said in the video I just saw that relationships
are not it. and family is not it. but that 'fulfillment'
was going inside to 'get away' from it all for a while.
Well instead of loving god he wants us to 'respect'
(love) the master. Kiss his holy feet.
Then, instead of finding love in our family and
friends and god, we are led into the hindu misperception
of life that we are supposed to attain some fantasy
'place' and have god realisation and live for the master.
STILL the same trip as before.
HE wont humble himself to god and recognise his need
to beg redemption from god.
So he will be brought down the hard way. Fine with me.
I am fine with helping to crush his trip.
He comes from the idea that is all illusion.
He plays god and we play devotees.
The game is a horror.
If maharaji is not god then in fact we are athiests.
Nice to find out huh?
When all men are equal and flawed and the only
commandment really is to love god and love others and
ourselves, then the whole distraction of maharaji
has been a complete waste of a precious life.
Some people here are saying how they had 'good friends'.
Well ALL young people make good companions usually.
I missed so many times with my family and friends and
THEY were really good folks.
All to follow the lord. If he had come to his mid life
crisis and then made a turn to honesty I would have a
easier time with this whole issue but he is brazenly
pursueing the lord master angle all the more.
Well, that means war.
So there you go on yet another crusade. Baptize them heathen pagans by sword and hellfire if they don't share your opinion about 'the way things really are'...
It's not called 'inquisition' anymore - now, its 'deprogramming'.
I just saw a documentary about how Pizzaro wiped out the Inca kingdom. Murdered, pillaged, raped. And brought all that gold back to his Christian king and queen.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Fri, Feb 6, 1998 at 15:33:39 (EST)
Poster: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net
To: bftb
Subject: Re: happy premie
Message:
In your opinion;who does the brainwashing and do you think it's intentionally done or inadvertant?
This is all in the context of my own experience with K and DLM in the mid-70's: I allowed myself to be brainwashed because I wanted it all to be true; I wanted M to be the Lord of the Universe, I wanted to be in on the ground floor of the new religion with the latest incarnation of God, I wanted to realize God, I wanted to believe that we were all full of love and bliss and that by hiding under a blanket with my fingers in my ears I could bring about world peace. Any time I experienced cognitive dissonance, I would quickly put the doubts aside.
I remember being so disappointed when given K; I argued with the Initiator: Of course you will see 'light' when you push on your optic nerve! But I had waited awhile to receive this 'precious knowledge' and I sure didn't want to admit that I had been suckered! So I tried to be a good Premie, until I could no longer ignore the cognitive dissonance or the iconsistancies or the actual lack of love among the Lovers.
I did the brainwashing, along with the Premies and the Festivals and the music and the mind-numbing Satsang. I went along with it all, and I ignored my own good sense and doubts.
Maybe brainwashed is too strong a word; perhaps I should use 'self-deluded' from now on.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Fri, Feb 6, 1998 at 16:10:42 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email:
To: Selena and Sir David
Subject: Re: lover of a fiction. (Re: happy premie)
Message:
I think it's really important for ex-premies to tell their true feelings about Maharaji, as you say. But I do think it's important, and more productive, to phrase these feelings in the form of "I" statements without attacking the feelings of premies who post on here. I don't think one can really argue with someone's FEELING, but you can say "I don't feel that way, and here is why". I think that attacking someone's statements directly tends to polarize people.
I'm not exactly sure what Sir David meant, but I think he was trying to say something like the above. (Maybe...you'll have to let me know.)
Back To Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Fri, Feb 6, 1998 at 16:28:31 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Mili the Warrior
Subject: Re: happy premie
Message:
It's not called 'inquisition' anymore - now, its 'deprogramming'.
I just saw a documentary about how Pizzaro wiped out the Inca kingdom. Murdered, pillaged, raped. And brought all that gold back to his Christian king and queen.
Dear Mili,
I can't understand why you keep equating the ex-premies with 1) Nazis 2) white supremacists 3) the KKK, and now 4) Pizzaro and the Spanish Inquisition. Pretty soon, you're going to say that we're like Saddam Hussein!
You seem to equate ex-premies with a persecuting and morally corrupt majority and premies with a threatened, innocent, minority, which is not the way it is at all. Also, you have said, on Usenet, that the ex-premies are not allowing the premies freedom of religion! This is absolutely NOT TRUE. For one thing, both premies and M say that M's organization is not a religion. For another, there's certainly been no festivals or appearances by M cancelled because of ex-premies. Nor do ex-premies disrupt nightly meditations or video programs. And as far as the premie website goes, M, (or "people around M") pulled the plug on that one. I feel like you are fighting a battle against an invisible and unidentified enemy - whoever it is, IT'S NOT THE EX-PREMIES!
I believe that ex-premies should have freedom of speech and should be able to say what they think and believe. I believe the same should be true for premies (I also believe that premies should be able to have a web site if they want to. Do you?) If you, or anyone else, wants to follow M, then that's no concern of mine. I and every other ex-premie should, however, be able to say what we think and feel and know about M without being accused of religious persecution.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Fri, Feb 6, 1998 at 16:56:12 (EST)
Poster: Sir David
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: Everyone
Subject: Re: happy premie
Message:
What I was talking about in my above post is that by attacking a premie for following Maharaji, no useful result will come of it. I was once a staunch premie and in my heyday I used to enjoy people critisising me about following Maharaji. It did not change my beliefs one iota.
What got me about Bill's post was that he was attacking Happy Premie personally by saying that his mother wouldn't be proud of him and that he'd regret everything when he died. I think such personal attacks are counterproductive. For sure if happy premie is happy with his lot then nobody here is going to change his mind about Maharaji. So why attack him? It will simply alienate him against ex-premies.
When I was a staunch premie, if people had attacked me in that way it wouldn't have changed my beliefs in Maharaji. Perhaps it would have done the opposite. If people are deluded, then attacking them will only force them deeper into that delution.
More importantly, an observer who is trying to make up their mind about things is going to side with the non attacking peaceful folk. I agree with attacking Maharaji because he claims to be above us all. But attacking his devotees serves no purpose, in my opinion.
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Date: Fri, Feb 6, 1998 at 17:16:09 (EST)
Poster: Selena
Email:
To: Sir David
Subject: Re: happy premie
Message:
I see what you mean now, and I agree completely.
All attacking someone's religiosity does is encourage it, I've seen it over and over. One of the things I hope to gain from all this mess is some tolerance and compassion for the people still into M. Right now I am too close to it for that. I am impressed with the people on this list. It seems that when someone misunderstands a post, there is usually a follow-up explanation rather than some defensive flame. That was part of why I kept reading it these past weeks, and why I finally got the nerve to post.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Fri, Feb 6, 1998 at 17:20:34 (EST)
Poster: Sir David
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: Bill
Subject: Re: Sir David (Re: happy premie)
Message:
A good description of Maharaji's trip there. After having studied Hinduism I think it's a most damaging religion if followed to the extremes.
It is an attempt to make people inhuman. It is an attempt to deny basic human experiences and emotions. Also it advocated detatchment from friends and family as a goal which is damaging for all concerned.
If we are born as humans, why not act like we are supposed to be? Human. To deny our humanity seems to deny the reason for being here in the first place.
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Date: Fri, Feb 6, 1998 at 18:59:47 (EST)
Poster: Bongo
Email:
To: Mickey the Pharisee
Subject: Re: happy premie
Message:
Hey Mickey believe its true
Back To Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Fri, Feb 6, 1998 at 19:22:44 (EST)
Poster: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net
To: Bongo
Subject: Re: happy premie
Message:
Hey Mickey believe its true
I believe it is true that I had been suckered and deceived and separated from my friends and family and relieved of my cash.
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Date: Fri, Feb 6, 1998 at 19:37:05 (EST)
Poster: bongo
Email:
To: Mickey the Pharisee
Subject: Re: happy premie
Message:
Mickey one question. When you went to get K wot woz your reason?? how come I have all those things u have lost an K makes me live in the moment.
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Date: Fri, Feb 6, 1998 at 19:37:35 (EST)
Poster: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net
To: Mili
Subject: Re: happy premie
Message:
Hello CD.
Look at this.
If you poke through the new testament you see all the
stuff yeshua/jesus said.
I mean just mark,luke,john and matt.
The big commandment was love god and love others.
So how does that apply in maharaji's world?
He said in the video I just saw that relationships
are not it. and family is not it. but that 'fulfillment'
was going inside to 'get away' from it all for a while.
Well instead of loving god he wants us to 'respect'
(love) the master. Kiss his holy feet.
Then, instead of finding love in our family and
friends and god, we are led into the hindu misperception
of life that we are supposed to attain some fantasy
'place' and have god realisation and live for the master.
STILL the same trip as before.
HE wont humble himself to god and recognise his need
to beg redemption from god.
So he will be brought down the hard way. Fine with me.
I am fine with helping to crush his trip.
He comes from the idea that is all illusion.
He plays god and we play devotees.
The game is a horror.
If maharaji is not god then in fact we are athiests.
Nice to find out huh?
When all men are equal and flawed and the only
commandment really is to love god and love others and
ourselves, then the whole distraction of maharaji
has been a complete waste of a precious life.
Some people here are saying how they had 'good friends'.
Well ALL young people make good companions usually.
I missed so many times with my family and friends and
THEY were really good folks.
All to follow the lord. If he had come to his mid life
crisis and then made a turn to honesty I would have a
easier time with this whole issue but he is brazenly
pursueing the lord master angle all the more.
Well, that means war.
So there you go on yet another crusade. Baptize them heathen pagans by sword and hellfire if they don't share your opinion about 'the way things really are'...
It's not called 'inquisition' anymore - now, its 'deprogramming'.
I just saw a documentary about how Pizzaro wiped out the Inca kingdom. Murdered, pillaged, raped. And brought all that gold back to his Christian king and queen.
Gee Mili, did the Incas teach this knowledge?
There have been atrocities committed by most major religions and civilizations (read up on the Incas, buddy) and there is no defense of such acts; they are wrong and actually have nothing to do with the true practice of religion, but these actions have no relevance to the discussions of M and his minions on this site. You, as usual, have put up a straw man.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Fri, Feb 6, 1998 at 19:44:53 (EST)
Poster: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net
To: bongo
Subject: Re: happy premie
Message:
Mickey one question. When you went to get K wot woz your reason?? how come I have all those things u have lost an K makes me live in the moment.
I went to get K because I wanted to experience God. I'm not sure what you think I have lost; I have gained everything by leaving the cult. I now have a wonderful wife and children, I belong to an actual loving community, I have a purpose in my life, and I am no longer broke from flying all over the planet to watch M dance with his shirt off. I now experience God through my loved ones and my community and I am also able to deal with things in a rational matter, no more 'Guru's grace' illusions. I am much happier and experience much more love than I ever did as a Premie.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Fri, Feb 6, 1998 at 20:05:38 (EST)
Poster: bongo
Email:
To: Mickey the Pharisee
Subject: Re: happy premie
Message:
Sorry u had to pay to travel see M etc..as u may or may not know some premies are able to travel the world gain entry to progs etc completely free something to do with Grace I think.K fills my life with that sort of magic.. not M but K itself.
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Date: Fri, Feb 6, 1998 at 22:40:31 (EST)
Poster: MOOD
Email: bb
To: Mili
Subject: SWING (Re: happy premie)
Message:
Hello Mili.
well I can't sustain a warlike feeling for very long
I guess. But anyway, I felt it and it came out.
You also have felt pretty hot sometimes here don't fergit.
It passes.
Sorry about mentioning your mom.
Don't forget someone called in some death threats.
Maybe it was CD. or perhaps Katie?
The find about love god, yourself and others as being
the only requirement of god is an excellent bit of info.
Kind of lets us off a lot of hooks. Or rather, MANY
people, christians too, have many requirements they say
we have to do in life. It is good to find out that
it is only one sentence long. That covers it. Then just
proceed in your freely spent time.
But really, maharaji is in error.
It might not be so costly for those who are just
dabbling in knowledge. But for the ones coming now,
they can't have thier own religion and come to
get the techniques, thats a blunder, they have to get
into and state alliegance to the idea of master/god.
I guess it's doomed wether I do anything or not.
So much for my old long dream.
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Date: Sat, Feb 7, 1998 at 00:24:12 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: bongo
Subject: Re: happy premie
Message:
Sorry u had to pay to travel see M etc..as u may or may not know some premies are able to travel the world gain entry to progs etc completely free something to do with Grace I think.K fills my life with that sort of magic.. not M but K itself.
How nice for you.
By the way, can you get frequent flyer miles with that "travel grace?"
Back To Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Sat, Feb 7, 1998 at 00:41:38 (EST)
Poster: Joy
Email: Bluebirdd@aol.com
To: JW
Subject: Re: happy premie
Message:
Travel free to programs? Pray, how do they manage that? Does the Grace just instantly transport them all there via some sunbeam, without a plane?
If I had worked a normal job all during my 20s and saved some money and put a downpayment on a house or condo instead of running all over the planet after GMJ (at one point in 1977 he was doing a program every 19 days in a different city, which everyone in the ashram was required to attend), I would be a LOT better off financially and spiritually than I am now, having given all my possessions away and lived out of two suitcases in the ashram all that time. So I guess it's by Maharaji's "Grace" I never went to college, trained for a career, had kids, or anything else normal folks do in their 20s. Thank you Maharaji, I'll be eternally grateful.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Sat, Feb 7, 1998 at 05:37:46 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Sir David
Subject: Re: happy premie
Message:
What I was talking about in my above post is that by attacking a premie for following Maharaji, no useful result will come of it. I was once a staunch premie and in my heyday I used to enjoy people critisising me about following Maharaji. It did not change my beliefs one iota.
What got me about Bill's post was that he was attacking Happy Premie personally by saying that his mother wouldn't be proud of him and that he'd regret everything when he died. I think such personal attacks are counterproductive. For sure if happy premie is happy with his lot then nobody here is going to change his mind about Maharaji. So why attack him? It will simply alienate him against ex-premies.
When I was a staunch premie, if people had attacked me in that way it wouldn't have changed my beliefs in Maharaji. Perhaps it would have done the opposite. If people are deluded, then attacking them will only force them deeper into that delution.
More importantly, an observer who is trying to make up their mind about things is going to side with the non attacking peaceful folk. I agree with attacking Maharaji because he claims to be above us all. But attacking his devotees serves no purpose, in my opinion.
I agree with you completely on this, Sir David.
People who are attacking premies, and trying to 'deprogram' them are in effect, bigger fanatics than the ones they propose to 'save'. It's easy to see that the 'deprogrammers' imposing these 'cult' stigmata and using violent methods in the name of the 'common good' are just doing it out of desire for notoriety or personal gain.
I believe that realistic, factual information should be made available to all, and allow people to make up their own minds. By 'realistic' , I mean presenting both sides of the coin - I can hardly believe that Maharaji is out to rip me off, when he doesn't charge money for the Knowledge, and in the twenty five years that I have been involved, he has never asked me to give money to him. Compare that to many Catholic countries where church tax is mandatory for everyone, for example.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Sat, Feb 7, 1998 at 05:56:01 (EST)
Poster: Mr Ex
Email:
To: Mili
Subject: Who's using violence? (Re: happy premie)
Message:
Talking about violence ....
Who ordered premie.com's closing?
Who tried to close alt.cult.maharaji?
Mr Rawat, and some of his minions.
I vote for re-opening www.premie.com
You can host it on your web site, you have my blessings.
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Date: Sat, Feb 7, 1998 at 09:03:34 (EST)
Poster: lg
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: happy premie
Message:
Sorry u had to pay to travel see M etc..as u may or may not know some premies are able to travel the world gain entry to progs etc completely free something to do with Grace I think.K fills my life with that sort of magic.. not M but K itself.
How nice for you.
By the way, can you get frequent flyer miles with that 'travel grace?'
When a person don't know something or the origin of something, it's easy to say this is "grace and/or magic". And blame it on that. Therefore grace is or equal to ignorance.
Sorry! I prefer to be in knowledge of my life. Being in knowledge of, is an other term for being enlightened.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Thurs, Feb 5, 1998 at 21:09:19 (EST)
Poster: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Everyone
Subject: Broken forms and virus scares
Message:
The subject field on the start thread form is broken. I'll fix it after I post this.
In the thread at the bottom of the index ("Forum Reset") is an ongoing debate as to whether or not zipped archive files can hide a vicious virus or not. It can't. I specifically decided not to use self-extracting zip files (executables) to eliminate this from even coming up. Didn't work.
A zipped file contains files that are compressed. After de-compressing (un-zipping) them, you have the files that the zipper (me) started with - plus the original zip file that doesn't get deleted in the process. Were I to just put the files on the site in an unzipped form, and you were to save them to disk, you would end up with what is contained in the zip file. You would also take up to 4 times longer to accomplish that.
You will find that when you unzip the archives, you have unzipped HTML files. These files can tell a web browser what to print and where to print it on your screen. They can also tell it what color to use, how big to make the letters. On this site, they tell Netscape what pictures to retrieve and where to print them on the screen.
Ex-premie.org does not use Javascript or Java Applets. There is nothing that you can get from this site other than the facts about a truly bizarre cult that we were all once a part of.
None of the archived files from Forum II are on this site without having been screened and reformatted by a program that I wrote to do this. Cross my heart.
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Date: Thurs, Feb 5, 1998 at 21:26:06 (EST)
Poster: Brian
Email:
To: Brian
Subject: Re: Broken forms and virus scares
Message:
Okay, the form's fixed. I had filled the field with spaces as I was checking to make sure that it would accept 40 characters (the Subject length limit). I forgot to delete them, so everyone got a form with that field already completely filled with spaces. Of course it looked empty, and simply refused to accept any more input.
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Date: Thurs, Feb 5, 1998 at 21:48:36 (EST)
Poster: Brian
Email:
To: Brian
Subject: Re: Broken forms and bongo posts (Re: Broken forms and virus scares)
Message:
bongo was unfortunate enough to try to post when the new thread form was broken. Reading the post took some gymnastics. I deleted his/her posts and re-entered the only one with content above. The other post contained only a question mark in the message area. I signed the post, "bongo". It's a name that just came to me...
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Date: Thurs, Feb 5, 1998 at 22:04:10 (EST)
Poster: VP
Email:
To: Brian, Anon, Katie
Subject: War of the Worlds... (Re: Broken forms and virus scares)
Message:
Thanks for this explanation-my friend says you are practising safe computer for sure and that I can relax! Didn't want to panic everyone, but I'd rather know these things and be safe rather than sorry. Your computer novice-VP
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Date: Thurs, Feb 5, 1998 at 20:31:34 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Everyone
Subject: alt.cult.maharaji on Deja News
Message:
I recently asked Deja News if they were still listing alt.cult.maharaji as a newsgroup. Here's their answer (followed by my question):
Subject: Re: Where is alt.cult.maharaji?
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 18:47:28 -0600 (CST)
From: User Liaison 7
To: katie
Have no fear, it's not disappeared.
We have certain "quotas," so to speak, that each group must meet over a specified time period. We cannot list every newsgroup on our browse groups feature, there are just to many. So in order to keep download times and information in a fairly staple mix, we have to take some groups off of the feature.
You can still view it by performing a newgroup search within the search filter. [my emphasis.] I hope this answers your question.
On Mon, 2 Feb 1998, katie wrote:
> Dear Deja News:
>
> I and several other people were recently unable to use your "Browse Groups" feature to locate the newsgroup "alt.cult.maharaji". Apparently this group is not a part in your hierarchy of usenet groups anymore. Could you please list the group, OR if you don't want to list it for some reason, could you let me know why not?
>
> Thanks very much,
> Katie Haering
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Date: Thurs, Feb 5, 1998 at 22:53:31 (EST)
Poster: A pain in your technological behind
Email:
To: Katie
Subject: Off subject (Re: alt.cult.maharaji on Deja News)
Message:
After all of the talk, I tried to download the last Archive file and I can't because I am running a 32 bit application! (Whatever the hell that means?#@**?)
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Date: Thurs, Feb 5, 1998 at 23:22:29 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email:
To: A pain in Your technological behind
Subject: Re: Off subject (Re: alt.cult.maharaji on Deja News)
Message:
After all of the talk, I tried to download the last Archive file and I can't because I am running a 32 bit application! (Whatever the hell that means?#@**?)
Truthfully, I am pretty clueless about computers and I don't know whatever the hell that means, either. Webmaster Brian is quite expert with computers and perhaps can answer your question.
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Date: Fri, Feb 6, 1998 at 06:26:59 (EST)
Poster: Brian
Email:
To: A pain in your technological behind
Subject: Re: Off subject (Re: alt.cult.maharaji on Deja News)
Message:
After all of the talk, I tried to download the last Archive file and I can't because I am running a 32 bit application! (Whatever the hell that means?#@**?)
Try it again, and this time when Netscape pops up a box saying "You have started to download a file of unknown type", click on Save File.
This shouldn't take any computer expertise to read these. I'll break them out into separate pages that people can just click on. Gimme a week. Sheeesh...
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Date: Fri, Feb 6, 1998 at 10:05:07 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: all
Subject: Re: old forum and computer stuff (Re: alt.cult.maharaji on Deja News)
Message:
Just a few things"
1. I have the last archive downloaded and unZIPped, if anyone wants a copy of a particular thread or post and can't/doesn't want to get it themselves. (BTW, it took me a long time to get this unZIPped, Brian, as I don't have that utility on Netscape - it's on another program. Plus I didn't know what I was doing.)
2. The definition of "computer expertise" varies. For people like me, who don't naturally "get" computers, I highly recommend those "For Dummies" books. Some are better than others but I recommend PC's for Dummies, The Internet for Dummies, and even Creating Web Pages for Dummies, which explains a lot about what it takes to make and maintain pages like the ex-premie page. Make sure you get the latest editions. (Perhaps CD might want to list them on his book page.)
Katie
P.S. Be nice to Brian :)
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Date: Fri, Feb 6, 1998 at 10:14:21 (EST)
Poster: VP
Email:
To: Katie
Subject: Re: old forum and computer stuff (Re: alt.cult.maharaji on Deja News)
Message:
I have designed the "look" of some web pages for companies, so I know about the graphics, but not the programming and I can tell you that from what little help I was, it still was a TON of work for the programmer to make it happen. I wouldn't even want to think about having to maintain all of this. I'll bet Brian is getting a huge salary for this, too!(haha) Brian, I/we appreciate all of the work that you do and I promise to get the Dummies book and to stop taking up the Forum space asking technical questions. Sheesh...
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Date: Fri, Feb 6, 1998 at 10:17:52 (EST)
Poster: VP
Email:
To: Brian
Subject: The little engine who could (Re: alt.cult.maharaji on Deja News)
Message:
After all of the talk, I tried to download the last Archive file and I can't because I am running a 32 bit application! (Whatever the hell that means?#@**?)
Try it again, and this time when Netscape pops up a box saying 'You have started to download a file of unknown type', click on Save File.
This shouldn't take any computer expertise to read these. I'll break them out into separate pages that people can just click on. Gimme a week. Sheeesh...
Please do not do ANY extra work I my account. I want to learn how to do all of this and I can do it. (Ithink I can...I think I can...I think I can...)
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Date: Fri, Feb 6, 1998 at 15:33:44 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email:
To: VP
Subject: Re: old forum and computer stuff (Re: alt.cult.maharaji on Deja News)
Message:
Dear VP - I do not mind answering basic questions - like the ones I answered for you below - because it helps me learn the stuff (assuming that I know it, that it is). Plus I am not as busy as Brian - I just help him every once in a while, but lack the technical expertise to be a REAL help to Brian or to answer more involved questions - like the one above.
P.S. (off topic) I used to be a graphic design major (before I had to work in an ad agency for a while), so I know a little about the graphics too, but not about the programming (I think that graphic designers NEED to learn web page programming ASAP, don't you?) BTW, lest you get the wrong impression though - Brian designed the "look" of this web page by himself (with a little constructive and non-constructive criticism).
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Date: Thurs, Feb 5, 1998 at 11:57:33 (EST)
Poster: John K.
Email: kreilkamp@mindspring.com
To: Everyone
Subject: History ?
Message:
All right, so I understand (I think) what happened when M closed the ashrams in '83, although actually I still have some questions about HOW it was announced. I really doubt that M would have actually had a meeting for the ashram residents he was turning back into the world, but who knows, maybe he did.
But my real question today is what happened to the initiators. I have heard that at some point M changed their role. Did he actually strip all or some of them of their powers, or were some told to go get a job or all told to get a job, or what? Did they get private audiences with M when he gave them their new instructions or was it a blanket message that went out?
Does anyone know?
And is D. Smith the only western one still around in a full time role?
Thanks!
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Date: Thurs, Feb 5, 1998 at 13:20:46 (EST)
Poster: Mr Ex
Email:
To: John K.
Subject: Re: History ?
Message:
>All right, so I understand (I think) what happened when M closed the ashrams in '83, >although actually I still have some questions about HOW it was announced. I really >doubt that M would have actually had a meeting for the ashram residents he was >turning back into the world, but who knows, maybe he did.
I don’t remember of any ashram meeting where M said that we should all leave.
Closing of the ashrams was the national coordinator’s job.
They also used some of the remaining instructors to deal with this.
I heard that M said once in a meeting (in the US, 79 or 1980), very likely with instructors and/or coordinators that ashrams were not ashrams for him anymore.
That’s usually the way m says things, not addressing them directly, as you all know.
What happened very likely is that these PAM asked him for confirmation, he confirmed, and then they took ‘responsibility’ of closing the ashrams, given lots of BS explanation as you know.
M never gives details to do that kind of things. He doesn’t care, and relies on PAM.
If something happens that displeases him, he is pissed off and screams....
>But my real question today is what happened to the initiators. I have heard that at >some point M changed their role. Did he actually strip all or some of them of their >powers, or were some told to go get a job or all told to get a job, or what? Did they get >private audiences with M when he gave them their new instructions or was it a blanket >message that went out?
He had some meetings with them where he said he was pissed, that they shouldn’t
do anything anymore (and wait for agya, he never says this, but it’s understood this way).
Some got something to do.
Many were left, some with very unclear status.
I personally know one of them very well, she doesn’t know exactly what her status
is, and it’s been lasting for more than 15 years. She obviously likes it, and M plays
with her. Love hate relationship. Terrible. He gave her some ‘important’ international service. Sometimes he refers to her as an instructor, sometimes not. Sometimes
she gets invitation to meetings etc, sometimes not.
I don’t understand her psychology. She has a big problem, that’s for sure.
>Does anyone know?
>And is D. Smith the only western one still around in a full time role?
Many of them are still instructors, some clear status (instructor)
Yorum Weisz, David Smith, Padarthanand, Charnanand, Belkis Shah, Patrick MacCracken, Rody Schmull, Julio Castro, Peter Lee, Peter Dawson, and some others I don’t remember.
some very unclear status, I won’t give their names, at least a dozen of them.
+ lots who would like to be instructor again (masochists?) : I would recommend them to seek for professional help until it’s too late.
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Date: Thurs, Feb 5, 1998 at 15:25:26 (EST)
Poster: John K.
Email:
To: Mr Ex
Subject: Re: History ?
Message:
Mr. Ex:
Thanks, I find this fascinating, maybe because I keep thinking there but for the grace of my own common sense, go I! Not that I was about to become an initiator, but for several years it was my great wish.
A couple more questions. How many initiators were there in the west before he let some go? When he told them not to do anything anymore, did some of them have to start supporting themselves? Like paying their own rent, buying their own food? Since there were no more ashrams, where did they live anyway?
I am sure it must have been a real shock to be faced with entering the world of bill paying etc.
Re the woman who you say has been unsure of her status for so many years, does she support herself?
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Date: Fri, Feb 6, 1998 at 10:23:51 (EST)
Poster: Mr Ex
Email:
To: John K.
Subject: Is this really history? (Re: History ? )
Message:
>A couple more questions. How many initiators were
>there in the west before he let some go?
It’s a very long story. Maybe someone should really
write that initiators saga one day.
There as been 2 time when m had a lot of initiators/instructors,
not speaking about mahatmas, that’s another saga !
First time : by the end of the 70s, all these initiators/mahatmas
maybe 30 to 50 , I don’t remember.
Then he fired most of them, and kept a minimum around him.
Then the 80s : 150 to 200 instructors very likely, most of them
part-time, some full-time.
>When he told them not to do anything anymore, did some of
>them have to start supporting themselves? Like
>paying their own rent, buying their own food?
That was not very clear. Some did support themselves,
some have never been able or never wanted to, lots of
politics (that could be another saga « Politics in DLM/EV »),
some got support from local EV, some were/are quite wealthy,
some live from love and grace, etc.
>Since there were no more ashrams, where did they
>live anyway?
Some lucky ones in the US/UK have an apartment, don’t
ask me who gave them.
Some live by premies here and there (present situation).
>I am sure it must have been a real shock to be faced
>with entering the world of bill paying etc.
EV/DLM helped many of them.
Some/many completely freaked out and left.
>Re the woman who you say has been unsure of
>her status for so many years, does she support herself?
She has a good job, makes a good living, gets some support
from EV ....
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Date: Wed, Feb 4, 1998 at 23:12:58 (EST)
Poster: Dan Crothers
Email: crothfam@idirect.com
To: Everyone
Subject: help
Message:
can anyone please help me to connect to Elan Vital or a premie site ? i have been out of touch for years and just got a computer and came across your site and recognized some old friends and would like to contact some more that are not "ex" premies i relalize by the tone that this is an anti Maharaji site but i am not bummed out about my expieriances i hope this does not freak everyone out and that someone would still be kind enough to help me i thankyou in advance and lookforward to your kind assistance ps i have not yet figured out e mail so ill watch the forum
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Date: Wed, Feb 4, 1998 at 23:23:07 (EST)
Poster: VP
Email:
To: Dan Crothers
Subject: Re: help
Message:
can anyone please help me to connect to Elan Vital or a premie site ? i have been out of touch for years and just got a computer and came across your site and recognized some old friends and would like to contact some more that are not 'ex' premies i relalize by the tone that this is an anti Maharaji site but i am not bummed out about my expieriances i hope this does not freak everyone out and that someone would still be kind enough to help me i thankyou in advance and lookforward to your kind assistance ps i have not yet figured out e mail so ill watch the forum
Hi, Dan. I am new to this, too, but from what I can gather, there used to be a site at premie.com and it was ordered to be shut down by M. I don't have any details. Apparently he does not like the fact that this site is here and does not seem too hip on the internet in general. For a long time I. too. tried to find out info on Elan Vital and it was just not available. Sorry that I can't be more help to you. You are right-the thrust of this site is to expose the negative aspects of M, but almost everyone here is very nice and some premies do post here from time to time, as well.
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Date: Thurs, Feb 5, 1998 at 04:03:56 (EST)
Poster: CD
Email:
To: Dan Crothers
Subject: Re: help
Message:
Dan,
818-889-0500 is the number for US event info.
There should be a few in the US this year.
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Date: Thurs, Feb 5, 1998 at 18:26:50 (EST)
Poster: annie ex ottawa
Email: aerily@aol.com
To: Dan Crothers
Subject: Re: help help help (Re: help )
Message:
hi Dan...! i just sent you an email before I finished reading your note. oops.
http://members.aol.com/aerily/index.html
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Date: Thurs, Feb 5, 1998 at 19:31:16 (EST)
Poster: lucille - ottawa
Email:
To: Dan Crothers
Subject: Re: help
Message:
can anyone please help me to connect to Elan Vital or a premie site ? i have been out of touch for years and just got a computer and came across your site and recognized some old friends and would like to contact some more that are not 'ex' premies i relalize by the tone that this is an anti Maharaji site but i am not bummed out about my expieriances i hope this does not freak everyone out and that someone would still be kind enough to help me i thankyou in advance and lookforward to your kind assistance ps i have not yet figured out e mail so ill watch the forum
Hi Dan - VP said it all. Remember me, I was aspirant? It's been a long time!
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Date: Thurs, Feb 5, 1998 at 22:24:36 (EST)
Poster: You want help to
Email: bb
To: Dan Crothers
Subject: get INTO quicksand? To get INTO a lie? (Re: help )
Message:
Hello dan, maharaji is doing two things these days.
One, he is admitting that he is not anything more that
the regular person.
Two, He is still very much keeping up the front that he
is the master and the hindu master idea is one where you
are supposed to look at the master as god and serve him
and love him and worship him and follow all his desires.
That is traditional hinduism and the problem with that is
that they are standing in the way of god.
If you want to have a relationship with god there is no
need of haveing a fake false front guru in your way.
the breath is talked about by jesus and maharaji is
trying to graft his importance on to your breath.
He does not believe in god. He thinks like all eastern types
do that we are all god and that there is no concious power
that is your friend. So in hinduism any guy can just
set himself up as a front and you can have god in form
via him. You need to worship someone? guru is available.
You need to please god? guru will take your life and
tell you to do whatever he likes. he is a fake and
a classic hindu fraud.
Stick around, tomorrow I will post a thread called
HINDU OF THE YEAR and you can get the basic hindu
picture.
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Date: Wed, Feb 4, 1998 at 22:08:08 (EST)
Poster: VP
Email:
To: Brian
Subject: Re: Forum Reset
Message:
Please pardon me if I am asking something that everyone else already knows the answer to. The threads and responses that I had not read used to appear blue when I had not read them yet and then purple once I had read them. Since the forum reset they are all purple and I cannot remember what I have read and haven't read. Is this my computer or did you change something. Thanks!
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Date: Wed, Feb 4, 1998 at 23:07:52 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email:
To: VP
Subject: Re: Forum Reset
Message:
Please pardon me if I am asking something that everyone else already knows the answer to. The threads and responses that I had not read used to appear blue when I had not read them yet and then purple once I had read them. Since the forum reset they are all purple and I cannot remember what I have read and haven't read. Is this my computer or did you change something. Thanks!
This is my fault cause I teased Brian about telling people about it last time. I can only tell you what to do if you are using Netscape. You have to go to OPTIONS (on toolbar), then General Preferences, then go to the bottom and hit "expire links". I have my links set to expire after 9 days, and since the forum usually gets archived every two weeks, then I don't have to do this. (Doing this will expire ALL your links all over, btw.)
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Date: Wed, Feb 4, 1998 at 23:45:18 (EST)
Poster: VP
Email:
To: Katie
Subject: Re: Forum Reset
Message:
Thanks, but I don't want my Forums to expire. Will we have to download archives from now on? Hey, Brian, don't listen to Katie's teasing-I loved the Blue/Purple thing! ( I'll bet Brian is about sick of me. I have been unappreciative of his hard work since I got here-haha!) Katie- thanks for being so helpful and patient to me with this computer stuff. Didn't you say you were a teacher earlier? It shows.
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Date: Wed, Feb 4, 1998 at 23:57:13 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: VP
Subject: Re: Forum Reset
Message:
Hi VP - no, I'm not a teacher, but I work with a lot of college students so I often have to explain stuff to relatively intelligent people (sometimes they are a lot more patient than I am, too.)
Re "expiring your links". It may sound ominous, but if you press "Expire Now" (in Netscape) but the only thing that will expire is the COLOR of your links - they'll all turn blue (on the forum, anyway.) So for example, if you were looking at another site besides the Forum, then all your visited links there would change back to their original color - I don't know if this is a drawback to you or not. Actually, I would just try once if I were you to see if it is what you want.
As far as downloading, I can't speak for The Web Master, but I think probably yes. Those files are huge. I really don't think you have to worry about viruses, but check with Brian if you want reassurance (he knows a lot more than me - about computers, that is.)
P.S. I loved your "scared of M" post. I wrote an answer about being scared of pictures of Jesus when I was a kid, and (even more) crucifixes, and (even more) GLOW-IN-THE-DARK crucifixes.
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Date: Thurs, Feb 5, 1998 at 00:45:29 (EST)
Poster: VP
Email:
To: Katie
Subject: Re: Forum Reset
Message:
Hi VP - no, I'm not a teacher, but I work with a lot of college students so I often have to explain stuff to relatively intelligent people (sometimes they are a lot more patient than I am, too.)
Re 'expiring your links'. It may sound ominous, but if you press 'Expire Now' (in Netscape) but the only thing that will expire is the COLOR of your links - they'll all turn blue (on the forum, anyway.) So for example, if you were looking at another site besides the Forum, then all your visited links there would change back to their original color - I don't know if this is a drawback to you or not. Actually, I would just try once if I were you to see if it is what you want.
As far as downloading, I can't speak for The Web Master, but I think probably yes. Those files are huge. I really don't think you have to worry about viruses, but check with Brian if you want reassurance (he knows a lot more than me - about computers, that is.)
P.S. I loved your 'scared of M' post. I wrote an answer about being scared of pictures of Jesus when I was a kid, and (even more) crucifixes, and (even more) GLOW-IN-THE-DARK crucifixes.
Oh, I see what you mean about the colors. I'll try that.
Okay, here I go revealing more about myself, but what the heck. My best friend owns a major computer company. It is ironic that I don't know anything about computers. Anyway, he/she says that it is so easy to put a virus onto the text and that no one here could detect it. To down- load the archive files could ruin your computer and you wouldn't know what hit you. Hope I'm not giving anyone any ideas out there, but it is something for us to consider.
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Date: Thurs, Feb 5, 1998 at 00:57:04 (EST)
Poster: VP
Email:
To: Katie
Subject: Fear (Re: Forum Reset)
Message:
Hi VP - no, I'm not a teacher, but I work with a lot of college students so I often have to explain stuff to relatively intelligent people (sometimes they are a lot more patient than I am, too.)
Re 'expiring your links'. It may sound ominous, but if you press 'Expire Now' (in Netscape) but the only thing that will expire is the COLOR of your links - they'll all turn blue (on the forum, anyway.) So for example, if you were looking at another site besides the Forum, then all your visited links there would change back to their original color - I don't know if this is a drawback to you or not. Actually, I would just try once if I were you to see if it is what you want.
As far as downloading, I can't speak for The Web Master, but I think probably yes. Those files are huge. I really don't think you have to worry about viruses, but check with Brian if you want reassurance (he knows a lot more than me - about computers, that is.)
P.S. I loved your 'scared of M' post. I wrote an answer about being scared of pictures of Jesus when I was a kid, and (even more) crucifixes, and (even more) GLOW-IN-THE-DARK crucifixes.
Oh, I see what you mean about the colors. I'll try that.
Okay, here I go revealing more about myself, but what the heck. My best friend owns a major computer company. It is ironic that I don't know anything about computers. Anyway, he/she says that it is so easy to put a virus onto the text and that no one here could detect it. To down- load the archive files could ruin your computer and you wouldn't know what hit you. Hope I'm not giving anyone any ideas out there, but it is something for us to consider.
P.S. I can't believe that I told everyone that I was scared of pictures of M, but it was the truth! I hate that I missed your post about crucifixes. Thinking about that, they are terrifying. Especially with Christ on them and all of the blood and thorns...I have never seen a glow-in-the-dark crucifix. ( There is a painting by Velasquez where Jesus appears to be glowing on the cross.)
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Date: Thurs, Feb 5, 1998 at 04:34:58 (EST)
Poster: Anon
Email:
To: VP
Subject: Re: Forum Reset
Message:
Oh, I see what you mean about the colors. I'll try that.
Okay, here I go revealing more about myself, but what the heck. My best friend owns a major computer company. It is ironic that I don't know anything about computers. Anyway, he/she says that it is so easy to put a virus onto the text and that no one here could detect it. To down- load the archive files could ruin your computer and you wouldn't know what hit you. Hope I'm not giving anyone any ideas out there, but it is something for us to consider.
I personally think that is most unlikely VP. However if there is any truth in that it maybe an idea to work towards having a version of the archives online as well for browsing (as before).
Surely if a virus can be put into the text (as an invisible tag I presume) Brian would first suffer this infection as he compiles the archive.
Thinking about it, if the archives that Brian are zipping are text files it would be easy to see any extraneous coding in the text. HTML is the only medium we are involved in where one can include hidden tags or scripted virus I think.I'll have to take a look to see how Brian's doing them.
I have been forwarded many authorative-sounding emails warning of horrendous viruses. I have every time found out later that they were totally insubstantiated or incorrect. I would say that, if you are going to publicize your friends warning to one and all, you may be well advised to really check out exactly what he means and whether a virus actually could be encoded into the zipped archives. Otherwise people really will be scared to download them and maybe without good reason. Its worth finding out the truth about this before it gets blown out of proportion or indeed so as we can prevent such a problem.
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Date: Thurs, Feb 5, 1998 at 09:47:03 (EST)
Poster: Katie slightly off topic
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Anon
Subject: Re: Forum Reset
Message:
Just to add to what Anon said - there is an e-mail going around the states and possibly the UK now which describes a virus that comes on an e-mail called "Join the Crew". We've gotten three separate notifications of the virulence of this virus from friends and family members. BUT according to several people who know about this stuff and who I trust highly (although Bill Gates is not MY best friend, VP!) this "warning" is a big fake that goes around periodically. In a sense it IS a virus because it causes people to send large amounts of e-mail for no reason (some of our triends sent the message to over a hundred people.)
I have gotten a couole viruses on my computer (it's almost inevitable when you work at a university), but they all have been merely annoying AND easily removable. I don't want to minimize things, but, as Anon says, I don't want people to be scared to death either.
What do you think, oh Wizard of Ex? (I mean you, Brian!)
Katie
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Date: Thurs, Feb 5, 1998 at 12:50:38 (EST)
Poster: VP
Email:
To: Anon
Subject: Re: Forum Reset
Message:
Oh, I see what you mean about the colors. I'll try that.
Okay, here I go revealing more about myself, but what the heck. My best friend owns a major computer company. It is ironic that I don't know anything about computers. Anyway, he/she says that it is so easy to put a virus onto the text and that no one here could detect it. To down- load the archive files could ruin your computer and you wouldn't know what hit you. Hope I'm not giving anyone any ideas out there, but it is something for us to consider.
I personally think that is most unlikely VP. However if there is any truth in that it maybe an idea to work towards having a version of the archives online as well for browsing (as before).
Surely if a virus can be put into the text (as an invisible tag I presume) Brian would first suffer this infection as he compiles the archive.
Thinking about it, if the archives that Brian are zipping are text files it would be easy to see any extraneous coding in the text. HTML is the only medium we are involved in where one can include hidden tags or scripted virus I think.I'll have to take a look to see how Brian's doing them.
I have been forwarded many authorative-sounding emails warning of horrendous viruses. I have every time found out later that they were totally insubstantiated or incorrect. I would say that, if you are going to publicize your friends warning to one and all, you may be well advised to really check out exactly what he means and whether a virus actually could be encoded into the zipped archives. Otherwise people really will be scared to download them and maybe without good reason. Its worth finding out the truth about this before it gets blown out of proportion or indeed so as we can prevent such a problem.
Anon and Katie-
I finally got ahold of my friend at work. Apparently there are some fake viruses, but he/she said that he/she sees real ones everyday. They are very nasty and many will-erase all of the info off of your harddrive. There is some corporate warfare and the techs from his/her company get called in all of the time to handle this stuff. According to him/her, there is nothing that they can do in many cases.
Anyway to sort of answer Anon-and I am not very technical, so bear with me as I stumble through this- even if Brian is checking these files or even if he is running a virus check program, someone can get in here and load the virus after it is archived (between Brian and someone downloading it from the archives) Please don't ask me how, because I don't know, I'm just telling you what a trustworthy source in the field is saying. On a brighter note, this person made a suggestion that you may already know and be doing. Apparently there is a site to check for viruses before you download called MacAphie (I'm not sure about the spelling and someone correct me if that is the wrong name) It is supposed to be the best for detecting major viruses, but will still not catch a new one, of course. My friend has promised to come over here tonight and look at the archive set up and I will post any insights he has to offer if anyone is interested.
P.S. This person is not BIll Gates but they do know one another...
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Date: Thurs, Feb 5, 1998 at 16:24:23 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: VP
Subject: Re: Forum Reset
Message:
Oh, I see what you mean about the colors. I'll try that.
Okay, here I go revealing more about myself, but what the heck. My best friend owns a major computer company. It is ironic that I don't know anything about computers. Anyway, he/she says that it is so easy to put a virus onto the text and that no one here could detect it. To down- load the archive files could ruin your computer and you wouldn't know what hit you. Hope I'm not giving anyone any ideas out there, but it is something for us to consider.
I personally think that is most unlikely VP. However if there is any truth in that it maybe an idea to work towards having a version of the archives online as well for browsing (as before).
Surely if a virus can be put into the text (as an invisible tag I presume) Brian would first suffer this infection as he compiles the archive.
Thinking about it, if the archives that Brian are zipping are text files it would be easy to see any extraneous coding in the text. HTML is the only medium we are involved in where one can include hidden tags or scripted virus I think.I'll have to take a look to see how Brian's doing them.
I have been forwarded many authorative-sounding emails warning of horrendous viruses. I have every time found out later that they were totally insubstantiated or incorrect. I would say that, if you are going to publicize your friends warning to one and all, you may be well advised to really check out exactly what he means and whether a virus actually could be encoded into the zipped archives. Otherwise people really will be scared to download them and maybe without good reason. Its worth finding out the truth about this before it gets blown out of proportion or indeed so as we can prevent such a problem.
Anon and Katie-
I finally got ahold of my friend at work. Apparently there are some fake viruses, but he/she said that he/she sees real ones everyday. They are very nasty and many will-erase all of the info off of your harddrive. There is some corporate warfare and the techs from his/her company get called in all of the time to handle this stuff. According to him/her, there is nothing that they can do in many cases.
Anyway to sort of answer Anon-and I am not very technical, so bear with me as I stumble through this- even if Brian is checking these files or even if he is running a virus check program, someone can get in here and load the virus after it is archived (between Brian and someone downloading it from the archives) Please don't ask me how, because I don't know, I'm just telling you what a trustworthy source in the field is saying. On a brighter note, this person made a suggestion that you may already know and be doing. Apparently there is a site to check for viruses before you download called MacAphie (I'm not sure about the spelling and someone correct me if that is the wrong name) It is supposed to be the best for detecting major viruses, but will still not catch a new one, of course. My friend has promised to come over here tonight and look at the archive set up and I will post any insights he has to offer if anyone is interested.
P.S. This person is not BIll Gates but they do know one another...
I'd be really interested in knowing what your friend has to say (and please thank him for me/us, of course.) BTW, the virus checker he was referring to is called McAfee. I'm not sure of their web site address, but we have McAfee VirusScan (a software program) on our computer. Everyone at work uses McAfee virus software too.
I was just kidding about Bill Gates. You do know the Great Pumpkin, though, right?
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Date: Thurs, Feb 5, 1998 at 17:30:11 (EST)
Poster: VP
Email:
To: Katie
Subject: M is a pumpkin (Re: Forum Reset)
Message:
Yes, he's big and round and "golden" and lots of people wait for him to bring "treats" to them but he never quite delivers and so a lot of them are disillusioned. Some of them even started a web site...
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Date: Thurs, Feb 5, 1998 at 20:41:15 (EST)
Poster: Anon
Email:
To: VP
Subject: Re: Forum Reset
Message:
Anyway to sort of answer Anon-and I am not very technical, so bear with me as I stumble through this- even if Brian is checking
these files or even if he is running a virus check program, someone can get in here and load the virus after it is archived (between
Brian and someone downloading it from the archives) Please don't ask me how, because I don't know, I'm just telling you what a
trustworthy source in the field is saying. On a brighter note, this person made a suggestion that you may already know and be doing.
Apparently there is a site to check for viruses before you download called MacAphie (I'm not sure about the spelling and someone
correct me if that is the wrong name) It is supposed to be the best for detecting major viruses, but will still not catch a new one, of
course. My friend has promised to come over here tonight and look at the archive set up and I will post any insights he has to offer if
anyone is interested.
P.S. This person is not BIll Gates but they do know one another...
Thanks VP. I use virus protection software on my computer .
I will be interested to hear what your friend says though.
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Date: Wed, Feb 4, 1998 at 20:41:03 (EST)
Poster: StephenB
Email: brunston@tde.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Chat Room Proposal
Message:
I would like to propose a time and site for an online real-time interactive chat session. This can be done by logging onto a
server...I propose US Undernet. For those of you who do not know how to access chat I would be glad to post instructions if requested. for the sake of simplicity...how about Monday Nights
7:00 MST (5:00 EST) This would give great support real time to those who may need it most...recent escapees :)
Please give feedback on time and Place
StephenB
brunston@tde.com
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Date: Wed, Feb 4, 1998 at 22:01:22 (EST)
Poster: VP
Email:
To: StephenB
Subject: Re: Chat Room Proposal
Message:
I would like to propose a time and site for an online real-time interactive chat session. This can be done by logging onto a
server...I propose US Undernet. For those of you who do not know how to access chat I would be glad to post instructions if requested. for the sake of simplicity...how about Monday Nights
7:00 MST (5:00 EST) This would give great support real time to those who may need it most...recent escapees :)
Please give feedback on time and Place
StephenB
brunston@tde.com
Stephen B-
I would be up for this, but I am new to this whole internet world and would need some instructions. Thanks, VP
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Date: Thurs, Feb 5, 1998 at 00:00:37 (EST)
Poster: StephenB
Email: brunston@tde.com
To: ALL INTERESTED
Subject: Chat Room: InstructionsProposal (Re: Chat Room Proposal)
Message:
I would like to propose a time and site for an online real-time interactive chat session. This can be done by logging onto a
server...I propose US Undernet. For those of you who do not know how to access chat I would be glad to post instructions if requested. for the sake of simplicity...how about Monday Nights
7:00 MST (5:00 EST) This would give great support real time to those who may need it most...recent escapees :)
Please give feedback on time and Place
StephenB
brunston@tde.com
The first thing you need to chat on these channels is a "chat client" I recommend mIRC16 or mIRC32. These can be downloaded for free at
http://www.mirc.com
This is a seperate program that will have a diffenert icon on your screen when finished with the install. It is not a plug-in to a browser. Download the file, then instal it on your computer.
The steps to run are:
1. connect to your internet service provider
2. Open the mirc chat program to a screen called mirc setup (it should open automaticlly)
3. Select Ramdom US Undernet Server (again should be default)
4. Type in a name, email address and nickname
5. click connect
6. when connected you will see limited instruction on how to use program.
7. type /join #ex-premie in the block with the blinking cursur, if you are the first you will create the room if you are after you will join the chat in progress, all participants are then listed and you will see:)
8. if having trouble joining the room, type /list and the program will display all rooms....but beware there are thousands (and some are unsavory)
Mail if you still need help!
StephenB
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Date: Thurs, Feb 5, 1998 at 22:24:45 (EST)
Poster: Joy
Email:
To: StephenB
Subject: Re: Chat Room: InstructionsProposal (Re: Chat Room Proposal)
Message:
I can't help it, but the idea of a chat room still reminds me of the "chit chat" we weren't supposed to engage in! (As if this site didn't qualify!). Remember, we were only supposed to speak satsang? And always remember Holy Name, to keep our minds from thinking. Doesn't mean I wouldn't want to see a chat room, just the association seems so strange, given the context. Chitter-chatter away, all!
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Date: Thurs, Feb 5, 1998 at 22:24:55 (EST)
Poster: Joy
Email:
To: StephenB
Subject: Re: Chat Room: InstructionsProposal (Re: Chat Room Proposal)
Message:
I can't help it, but the idea of a chat room still reminds me of the "chit chat" we weren't supposed to engage in! (As if this site didn't qualify!). Remember, we were only supposed to speak satsang? And always remember Holy Name, to keep our minds from thinking. Doesn't mean I wouldn't want to see a chat room, just the association seems so strange, given the context. Chitter-chatter away, all!
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Date: Thurs, Feb 5, 1998 at 22:26:06 (EST)
Poster: Joy
Email:
To: Joy
Subject: Re: Chat Room: InstructionsProposal (Re: Chat Room Proposal)
Message:
Sorry about the double post, sometimes I'm technologically inept.
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