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Ex-Premie.Org |
Forum II Archive #
5 |
From:
Feb 4, 1998 |
To:
Feb 13, 1998 |
Page:
3
Of:
5 |
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Scott Talkington (Jones) -:- The Badnesh bus to Orlando -:- Mon, Feb 9, 1998 at 15:26:50 (EST)
___eb -:- Re: The Badnesh bus to Orlando -:- Mon, Feb 9, 1998 at 19:08:31 (EST)
___Scott -:- Re: The Badnesh bus to Orlando -:- Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 10:02:51 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: The Badnesh bus to Orlando -:- Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 10:34:48 (EST)
___Sunshine State -:- Scott -:- Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 10:53:23 (EST)
___Scott T. -:- Re: The Badnesh bus to Orlando -:- Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 11:19:31 (EST)
___Scott T. -:- Re: Scott -:- Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 11:25:41 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: The Badnesh bus to Orlando -:- Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 11:27:33 (EST)
___Scott T. -:- Re: Scott -:- Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 11:43:35 (EST)
___Scott T. -:- A proposed inter-vention -:- Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 12:01:41 (EST)
___eb -:- Re: Scott -:- Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 13:28:44 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: Scott -:- Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 13:45:07 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: A proposed inter-vention -:- Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 15:08:25 (EST)
___Scott T. -:- Re: A proposed inter-vention -:- Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 15:47:19 (EST)
___Scott T. -:- Re: Scott -:- Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 15:50:10 (EST)
___VP -:- Re: A proposed inter-vention -:- Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 20:23:57 (EST)
___Mickey the Pharisee -:- Re: Scott -:- Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 22:52:53 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: Scott -:- Wed, Feb 11, 1998 at 00:04:01 (EST)
___fhgkjhg -:- Re: Scott -:- Wed, Feb 11, 1998 at 08:20:41 (EST)
___Mickey the Pharisee -:- Re: Scott -:- Wed, Feb 11, 1998 at 19:21:19 (EST)
Ah do-do-do, Ada-da-da, -:- Is all I want to say to you -:- Mon, Feb 9, 1998 at 09:57:01 (EST)
___Anonomousie -:- Conversion Aversion -:- Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 09:08:36 (EST)
___Steve A -:- Re: Conversion Aversion -:- Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 10:00:45 (EST)
___ah do-do-do, ah da-da-da. -:- The innocence will pull me through -:- Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 10:21:23 (EST)
JW -:- Why Do People LIKE Devotion? -:- Mon, Feb 9, 1998 at 00:38:42 (EST)
___Mickey the Pharisee -:- Re: Why Do People LIKE Devotion? -:- Mon, Feb 9, 1998 at 01:25:36 (EST)
___Sir David -:- Re: Why Do People LIKE Devotion? -:- Mon, Feb 9, 1998 at 02:59:08 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: Why Do People LIKE Devotion? -:- Mon, Feb 9, 1998 at 09:55:48 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: Why Do People LIKE Devotion? -:- Mon, Feb 9, 1998 at 10:08:22 (EST)
___John K. -:- Re: Why Do People LIKE Devotion? -:- Mon, Feb 9, 1998 at 10:28:33 (EST)
___Selena -:- Re: Why Do People LIKE Devotion? -:- Mon, Feb 9, 1998 at 11:37:04 (EST)
___selena -:- Re: Why Do People LIKE Devotion? -:- Mon, Feb 9, 1998 at 12:39:48 (EST)
___Joy -:- Re: Why Do People LIKE Devotion? -:- Mon, Feb 9, 1998 at 13:22:06 (EST)
___A premie -:- Re: Why Do People LIKE Devotion? -:- Mon, Feb 9, 1998 at 14:58:38 (EST)
___John Cavad -:- Re: Why Do People LIKE Devotion? -:- Mon, Feb 9, 1998 at 15:05:49 (EST)
___John Cavad -:- Re: Why Do People LIKE Devotion? -:- Mon, Feb 9, 1998 at 15:29:09 (EST)
___A premie -:- Re: Why Do People LIKE Devotion? -:- Mon, Feb 9, 1998 at 15:42:07 (EST)
___StephenB -:- One theory on Devotion/Projection -:- Mon, Feb 9, 1998 at 15:48:13 (EST)
___Selena -:- Re: Why Do People LIKE Devotion? -:- Mon, Feb 9, 1998 at 16:23:19 (EST)
___Selena -:- Re: Why Do People LIKE Devotion? -:- Mon, Feb 9, 1998 at 16:34:30 (EST)
___VP -:- Re: Why Do People LIKE Devotion? -:- Mon, Feb 9, 1998 at 16:44:09 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: Why Do People LIKE Devotion? -:- Mon, Feb 9, 1998 at 16:45:48 (EST)
___Selena -:- Re: Why Do People LIKE to bring up the "heart"? -:- Mon, Feb 9, 1998 at 17:31:55 (EST)
___Anon -:- Re: Why Do People LIKE Devotion? -:- Mon, Feb 9, 1998 at 17:51:30 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: Why Do People LIKE to bring up the 'heart'? -:- Mon, Feb 9, 1998 at 17:58:38 (EST)
___Katie -:- To "A Premie" -:- Mon, Feb 9, 1998 at 19:11:31 (EST)
___Katie -:- To Selena -:- Mon, Feb 9, 1998 at 19:21:24 (EST)
___Joy -:- Re: Why Do People LIKE Devotion? -:- Mon, Feb 9, 1998 at 21:13:56 (EST)
___Joy -:- Re: Why Do People LIKE Devotion? -:- Mon, Feb 9, 1998 at 21:56:45 (EST)
___Scott -:- Re: Why Do People LIKE Devotion? -:- Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 10:47:39 (EST)
___Selena -:- Re: To Selena -:- Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 12:37:38 (EST)
___A premie -:- Re: Why Do People LIKE Devotion? -:- Wed, Feb 11, 1998 at 22:37:22 (EST)
___A premie -:- Re: Why Do People LIKE to bring up the 'heart'? -:- Wed, Feb 11, 1998 at 22:47:17 (EST)
___A premie -:- Re: Why Do People LIKE Devotion? -:- Wed, Feb 11, 1998 at 22:55:42 (EST)
___A premie -:- Re: Why Do People LIKE Devotion? -:- Wed, Feb 11, 1998 at 23:03:11 (EST)
___A premie -:- Re: Why Do People LIKE Devotion? -:- Wed, Feb 11, 1998 at 23:18:24 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: Why Do People LIKE Devotion? -:- Thurs, Feb 12, 1998 at 01:40:20 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: Why Do People LIKE to bring up the 'heart'? -:- Thurs, Feb 12, 1998 at 01:59:51 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: Why Do People LIKE Devotion? -:- Thurs, Feb 12, 1998 at 02:19:18 (EST)
John Cavad -:- The Guru Papers -:- Sun, Feb 8, 1998 at 20:53:23 (EST)
___Sir David -:- Re: The Guru Papers -:- Mon, Feb 9, 1998 at 22:21:35 (EST)
VP -:- The Prophet? -:- Sun, Feb 8, 1998 at 18:34:22 (EST)
Jim -:- Tale of Two Premies -:- Sun, Feb 8, 1998 at 18:15:06 (EST)
Used Panties -:- For Sale (Extra Large) -:- Sun, Feb 8, 1998 at 14:11:25 (EST)
___Anon -:- Re: For Sale (Extra Large) -:- Sun, Feb 8, 1998 at 21:11:59 (EST)
___Sir David -:- Re: For Sale (Extra Large) -:- Sun, Feb 8, 1998 at 21:15:24 (EST)
___Sir David -:- Re: For Sale (Extra Large) -:- Sun, Feb 8, 1998 at 21:18:39 (EST)
___Anon -:- Re: For Sale (Extra Large) -:- Sun, Feb 8, 1998 at 21:22:39 (EST)
___Fishy -:- Re: For Sale (Extra Large) -:- Mon, Feb 9, 1998 at 05:12:33 (EST)
Sir David -:- Relationships are important -:- Sun, Feb 8, 1998 at 12:07:27 (EST)
___StephenB -:- Re: Relationships are important -:- Sun, Feb 8, 1998 at 12:38:22 (EST)
___lg -:- Re: Relationships are important -:- Sun, Feb 8, 1998 at 13:29:56 (EST)
Colin's ex-benefactor -:- where's my money? -:- Sun, Feb 8, 1998 at 11:16:32 (EST)
___Rick -:- Re: where's my money? -:- Sun, Feb 8, 1998 at 15:46:31 (EST)
___bill -:- Re: where's my money? -:- Mon, Feb 9, 1998 at 15:29:46 (EST)
Barney -:- Word to the Wise -:- Sun, Feb 8, 1998 at 11:03:56 (EST)
___Suits You, Sir -:- Re: Word to the Wise -:- Mon, Feb 9, 1998 at 15:57:49 (EST)
Seymour -:- Secret? -:- Sun, Feb 8, 1998 at 09:29:26 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: Secret? -:- Sun, Feb 8, 1998 at 10:45:26 (EST)
___bftb -:- Re: Secret? -:- Sun, Feb 8, 1998 at 13:20:19 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: Secret? -:- Sun, Feb 8, 1998 at 14:37:06 (EST)
___bftb -:- Re: Secret? -:- Sun, Feb 8, 1998 at 15:18:37 (EST)
___VP -:- Re: Secret? -:- Sun, Feb 8, 1998 at 17:59:36 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: Secret? -:- Sun, Feb 8, 1998 at 18:35:24 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: Secret? -:- Sun, Feb 8, 1998 at 18:45:42 (EST)
___Mickey the Pharisee -:- Re: Secret? -:- Sun, Feb 8, 1998 at 18:49:08 (EST)
___Sir David -:- Re: Secret? -:- Sun, Feb 8, 1998 at 19:57:22 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: Secret? -:- Mon, Feb 9, 1998 at 00:01:59 (EST)
___seymour -:- Re: Secret? -:- Mon, Feb 9, 1998 at 15:53:20 (EST)
___VP -:- Re: Secret? -:- Mon, Feb 9, 1998 at 16:13:18 (EST)
___VP -:- Virtual premies -:- Mon, Feb 9, 1998 at 16:15:54 (EST)
Luis Sanchez -:- There is not such thing as realization! -:- Sun, Feb 8, 1998 at 08:30:10 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: There is not such thing as realization! -:- Sun, Feb 8, 1998 at 09:37:05 (EST)
___surface -:- tension -:- Sun, Feb 8, 1998 at 11:36:25 (EST)
___Sir David -:- Re: There is not such thing as realization! -:- Sun, Feb 8, 1998 at 12:44:16 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: There is not such thing as realization! -:- Sun, Feb 8, 1998 at 12:53:29 (EST)
___Anon -:- Re: tension -:- Sun, Feb 8, 1998 at 12:57:53 (EST)
___bftb -:- Re: There is not such thing as realization! -:- Sun, Feb 8, 1998 at 13:01:46 (EST)
___Anon -:- Re: There is not such thing as realization! -:- Sun, Feb 8, 1998 at 13:05:58 (EST)
___AB -:- Re: tension -:- Sun, Feb 8, 1998 at 13:15:12 (EST)
___Sir David -:- Re: There is not such thing as realization! -:- Sun, Feb 8, 1998 at 13:23:58 (EST)
___bftba -:- Re: There is not such thing as realization! -:- Sun, Feb 8, 1998 at 13:35:19 (EST)
___bftb -:- Re: There is not such thing as realization! -:- Sun, Feb 8, 1998 at 13:57:12 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: There is not such thing as realization! -:- Sun, Feb 8, 1998 at 14:02:25 (EST)
___Sorry, bb, Sir David,etc... -:- You asked for it! -:- Sun, Feb 8, 1998 at 14:29:52 (EST)
___Shri bftb -:- Re: There is not such thing as realization! -:- Sun, Feb 8, 1998 at 15:12:23 (EST)
___good one -:- Mili -:- Sun, Feb 8, 1998 at 16:41:33 (EST)
___Katie -:- To Shri bftb -:- Sun, Feb 8, 1998 at 18:31:04 (EST)
___bftb -:- Re: To Shri bftb -:- Sun, Feb 8, 1998 at 18:47:38 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: To Shri bftb -:- Sun, Feb 8, 1998 at 19:00:32 (EST)
___Sir David -:- Re: Mili -:- Sun, Feb 8, 1998 at 19:39:35 (EST)
___shri bftb -:- Re: To Shri bftb -:- Sun, Feb 8, 1998 at 21:52:33 (EST)
___John K. -:- Re: To Shri bftb -:- Mon, Feb 9, 1998 at 13:34:04 (EST)
___Sir David -:- Duke of Earl -:- Mon, Feb 9, 1998 at 15:57:13 (EST)
___Sir David -:- Re: Duke of Earl -:- Mon, Feb 9, 1998 at 20:10:08 (EST)
Rick -:- maharaji and current events -:- Sat, Feb 7, 1998 at 12:07:12 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: maharaji and current events -:- Sat, Feb 7, 1998 at 12:49:21 (EST)
___Rick -:- Re: maharaji and current events -:- Sat, Feb 7, 1998 at 13:57:51 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: maharaji and current events -:- Sat, Feb 7, 1998 at 14:24:51 (EST)
___Rick -:- Re: maharaji and current events -:- Sat, Feb 7, 1998 at 15:12:24 (EST)
___Seymour -:- Re: maharaji and current events -:- Sun, Feb 8, 1998 at 06:27:00 (EST)
___right -:- rick -:- Sun, Feb 8, 1998 at 07:18:49 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: maharaji and current events -:- Sun, Feb 8, 1998 at 13:59:11 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: maharaji and current events -:- Sun, Feb 8, 1998 at 19:04:12 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: maharaji and current events -:- Sun, Feb 8, 1998 at 19:09:08 (EST)
___CD -:- Re: maharaji and current events -:- Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 01:31:16 (EST)
___VP -:- Award Video -:- Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 22:12:38 (EST)
Dawn -:- Negativity -:- Sat, Feb 7, 1998 at 10:08:51 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: Negativity -:- Sat, Feb 7, 1998 at 10:46:09 (EST)
___Sir David -:- Re: Negativity -:- Sat, Feb 7, 1998 at 10:48:34 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: Negativity -:- Sat, Feb 7, 1998 at 12:06:33 (EST)
___bftb -:- Re: Negativity -:- Sat, Feb 7, 1998 at 14:32:23 (EST)
___Brian -:- Naw, it wasn't Mili -:- Sat, Feb 7, 1998 at 15:12:32 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: Negativity -:- Sat, Feb 7, 1998 at 15:32:50 (EST)
___StephenB -:- TO: Dawn -:- Sat, Feb 7, 1998 at 16:01:08 (EST)
___Anon -:- Re: Negativity -:- Sun, Feb 8, 1998 at 05:29:24 (EST)
___Flange bolt -:- Re: Negativity -:- Sun, Feb 8, 1998 at 06:04:35 (EST)
___VP -:- Choices -:- Sun, Feb 8, 1998 at 08:48:20 (EST)
___Anon -:- Re: Negativity -:- Sun, Feb 8, 1998 at 09:56:10 (EST)
___StephenB -:- SKODAS! -:- Sun, Feb 8, 1998 at 12:24:20 (EST)
___Mickey the Skoda -:- Re: Negativity -:- Sun, Feb 8, 1998 at 18:46:40 (EST)
Date: Mon, Feb 9, 1998 at 15:26:50 (EST)
Poster: Scott Talkington (Jones)
Email: stalking@freewheeling.com
To: Everyone
Subject: The Badnesh bus to Orlando
Message:
What an exquisite site! I just stumbled accross it, and have needed something like this for quite awhile. David Lane's Neural Surfer site surprised me concerning the ubiquty of the Knowledge experience. Threw me into a quandry, though I've been away from DLM since about 1976. Feel I have alot to offer regording the concept of charisma.
Should mention... sorry about the "stalking" thing. My name used to me Scott Jones, but I changed it about the time that I left "the mission." I wonder if anyone can tell me if they know what happend to Rita Higgins. We were close friends, and she angrily left Bob Badnesh's "bliss" bus in the middle of the Arizona desert on our way to Orlando. I can't remember the year. Early 70s. It was a dangerous thing for a girl alone to do, and I was in the middle of my own emergency so didn't get "off the bus" with her. If anyone was on that crazy trip, or remember whacky-and-wonderful Rita, maybe you could send an email and let me know what happend to her. If Rita's around... keep that Teddy bear cocked!
As I said, I've some thoughts about "charisma" and the role it plays in human societies (derived from Max Weber mostly). I think we also have a few examples of what I'd call "good charisma."
What a wonderful site! Thanks again...
-Scott
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Date: Mon, Feb 9, 1998 at 19:08:31 (EST)
Poster: eb
Email:
To: Scott Talkington (Jones)
Subject: Re: The Badnesh bus to Orlando
Message:
1975.
I thought I saw Rita on Bob's bus going back home. Never saw her again.
eb
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Date: Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 10:02:51 (EST)
Poster: Scott
Email: stalking@freewheeling.com
To: eb
Subject: Re: The Badnesh bus to Orlando
Message:
1975.
I thought I saw Rita on Bob's bus going back home. Never saw her again.
eb
eb:
Thanks for the reply. You know, my memories of that era are so displaced that you may be right. I can't seem to put things in a chronological order, or I get the order reversed. Guess it shows how completely distracted, confused and mindless I had become. Perhaps I just drifted away from Rita, and attributed that absence to some "disappearance."
I remember having a discussion with Rita at Amherst about Maharaj Jis drinking. At that point there was some real questioning going on, and it might have been after Orlando. Or maybe we were really sort of "fringe" premies anyway, or "beyond the fringe" premies, to reference a contemporaneous comedy group.
It might help me to get this chronology straightened out. You don't happen to recall whether Amherst was before or after Orlando, do you?
-Scott
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Date: Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 10:34:48 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email:
To: Scott
Subject: Re: The Badnesh bus to Orlando
Message:
As far as I can remember, Amherst was in 1974 and Orlando was in 1975.
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Date: Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 10:53:23 (EST)
Poster: Sunshine State
Email: **
To: Scott
Subject: Scott (Re: The Badnesh bus to Orlando)
Message:
Hi Scott!
Amherst was in December 74
and Orlando was in December 75.
I have the divine times of those events somewhere if
you want any details.
BBurke
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Date: Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 11:19:31 (EST)
Poster: Scott T.
Email:
To: Katie
Subject: Re: The Badnesh bus to Orlando
Message:
As far as I can remember, Amherst was in 1974 and Orlando was in 1975.
Katie:
Thanks. I guess there was trouble in paradise way before things finally went down.
-Scott
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Date: Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 11:25:41 (EST)
Poster: Scott T.
Email:
To: Sunshine State
Subject: Re: Scott (Re: The Badnesh bus to Orlando)
Message:
Hi Scott!
Amherst was in December 74
and Orlando was in December 75.
I have the divine times of those events somewhere if
you want any details.
BBurke
Thanks Burke:
If I can think of any relevant questions I'll post them. I remember trying to convince Bob Badnesh to stop the bus on the way home and let me tie myself to a tree so I could experience a hurricane that was due to arrive on the Florida coast. Man, I was nuts back then. Fortunately, Bob didn't listen to me.
-Scott
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Date: Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 11:27:33 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email:
To: Scott T.
Subject: Re: The Badnesh bus to Orlando
Message:
As far as I can remember, Amherst was in 1974 and Orlando was in 1975.
Katie:
Thanks. I guess there was trouble in paradise way before things finally went down.
-Scott
Apparently, Maharaji was drinking heavily at the Millenium festival, which was held in November 1973. This according to "Soul Rush", which was written by Sophia Collier (remember her? She was about my age - a year older that Maharaji. So his drinking may have been common knowledge even as far back as the mid-seventies among a certain in-group of premies. I knew nothing about it until I found this site.
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Date: Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 11:43:35 (EST)
Poster: Scott T.
Email:
To: Sunshine State
Subject: Re: Scott (Re: The Badnesh bus to Orlando)
Message:
B Burke:
Sorry B. I misread your signature thinking "Burke" was your first name.
-Scott T.
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Date: Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 12:01:41 (EST)
Poster: Scott T.
Email:
To: Katie
Subject: A proposed inter-vention (Re: The Badnesh bus to Orlando)
Message:
As far as I can remember, Amherst was in 1974 and Orlando was in 1975.
Katie:
Thanks. I guess there was trouble in paradise way before things finally went down.
-Scott
Apparently, Maharaji was drinking heavily at the Millenium festival, which was held in November 1973. This according to 'Soul Rush', which was written by Sophia Collier (remember her? She was about my age - a year older that Maharaji. So his drinking may have been common knowledge even as far back as the mid-seventies among a certain in-group of premies. I knew nothing about it until I found this site.
Katie:
There's an interesting an rather funny side plat that is worth a grin. Rita had the notion that PAM were controlling Maharaj Ji and sort of "warping" him. She had this scheme, which as far as I know was pure fanatasy, to kidnap him and administer enimas until he "straightened out." I've no doubt the intervention would have helped him a lot, but doubt that his drinking, etc. was the direct result of PAM. Rita, what a creative mind!
-Scott
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Date: Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 13:28:44 (EST)
Poster: eb
Email:
To: Scott T.
Subject: Re: Scott (Re: The Badnesh bus to Orlando)
Message:
Scott,
You weren't the only one who was nuts. As I recall, Bob did stop the bus in Pensacola, and we went swimming in the hurricane waves.
eb
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Date: Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 13:45:07 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: Sunshine State
Subject: Re: Scott (Re: The Badnesh bus to Orlando)
Message:
Hi Scott!
Amherst was in December 74
and Orlando was in December 75.
I have the divine times of those events somewhere if
you want any details.
BBurke
Well, I don't want to be too technical, but Amherst was a Guru Puja festival in July, 1974. On the U Mass campus with outside programs. That wouldn't have worked in December in Mass.
Orlando '75 was a Hans Jayanti festival and was in November. I also rode a bus to that program, all the way from San Antonio, Texas and back, with about 100 premies. What a joy THAT was! I also recall that festival because my brother and his wife had just received knowledge and it was the first time I had seen them since they had. They took a picture of me that my brother used to drag out and laugh at. I look like the ultimate ashram/cult member. I look absolutely anorexic, awfully skinny, wearing one of those mexican wedding shirts and old, worn out Earth Shoes. I also had the obligatory DLM brother's haircut that made me look like St. John or something. Cringe!
BTW -- my brother and his wife left Maharaji long before I did and if you think I'm critical of M, you should have heard what they had to say!
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Date: Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 15:08:25 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Scott T.
Subject: Re: A proposed inter-vention (Re: The Badnesh bus to Orlando)
Message:
There's an interesting an rather funny side plat that is worth a grin. Rita had the notion that PAM were controlling Maharaj Ji and sort of 'warping' him. She had this scheme, which as far as I know was pure fanatasy, to kidnap him and administer enimas until he 'straightened out.' I've no doubt the intervention would have helped him a lot, but doubt that his drinking, etc. was the direct result of PAM. Rita, what a creative mind!
-Scott
Scott -
That's a hoot (definitely a creative mind there). But when you think about it, someone had to be buying Maharaji liquor back then because he wasn't old enough to buy it for himself! (Or maybe he had a fake ID?)
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Date: Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 15:47:19 (EST)
Poster: Scott T.
Email: stalking@freewheeling.com
To: Katie
Subject: Re: A proposed inter-vention (Re: The Badnesh bus to Orlando)
Message:
Katie:
Good point. Someone was "contributing to the delinquency of a minor." hmm
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Date: Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 15:50:10 (EST)
Poster: Scott T.
Email:
To: eb
Subject: Re: Scott (Re: The Badnesh bus to Orlando)
Message:
Scott,
You weren't the only one who was nuts. As I recall, Bob did stop the bus in Pensacola, and we went swimming in the hurricane waves.
eb
eb:
I still remember those lowering clouds off the coast. Couldn't have been more that 4 hours away.
-Scott
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Date: Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 20:23:57 (EST)
Poster: VP
Email:
To: Katie
Subject: Re: A proposed inter-vention (Re: The Badnesh bus to Orlando)
Message:
There's an interesting an rather funny side plat that is worth a grin. Rita had the notion that PAM were controlling Maharaj Ji and sort of 'warping' him. She had this scheme, which as far as I know was pure fanatasy, to kidnap him and administer enimas until he 'straightened out.' I've no doubt the intervention would have helped him a lot, but doubt that his drinking, etc. was the direct result of PAM. Rita, what a creative mind!
-Scott
Scott -
That's a hoot (definitely a creative mind there). But when you think about it, someone had to be buying Maharaji liquor back then because he wasn't old enough to buy it for himself! (Or maybe he had a fake ID?)
Can't you just see it now? This fat (uh, oh there's that word again...) Indian guru boy with the face of the devil and the license reads "Joe Smith 342 Oakwood Trail Pumpkin Patch USA Age 21...
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Date: Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 22:52:53 (EST)
Poster: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net
To: JW
Subject: Re: Scott (Re: The Badnesh bus to Orlando)
Message:
Hi Scott!
Amherst was in December 74
and Orlando was in December 75.
I have the divine times of those events somewhere if
you want any details.
BBurke
Well, I don't want to be too technical, but Amherst was a Guru Puja festival in July, 1974. On the U Mass campus with outside programs. That wouldn't have worked in December in Mass.
Orlando '75 was a Hans Jayanti festival and was in November. I also rode a bus to that program, all the way from San Antonio, Texas and back, with about 100 premies. What a joy THAT was! I also recall that festival because my brother and his wife had just received knowledge and it was the first time I had seen them since they had. They took a picture of me that my brother used to drag out and laugh at. I look like the ultimate ashram/cult member. I look absolutely anorexic, awfully skinny, wearing one of those mexican wedding shirts and old, worn out Earth Shoes. I also had the obligatory DLM brother's haircut that made me look like St. John or something. Cringe!
BTW -- my brother and his wife left Maharaji long before I did and if you think I'm critical of M, you should have heard what they had to say!
Ha ha, Joe, that's a great description of how so many of us looked then! I went to Hans Jayanti in Orlando in '75, and I wore a Mexican Wedding shirt and earth shoes, too! My hair was shoulder length and I wore a stupid little mustache, then too. I remember going to the edges of the festival site to purchase cigarettes (man, was I in my mind!) and being amazed at how strange things were on the fringes. I hurried back to my place near the stage where I could sing inane songs and listen to satsang and not think or hear my doubts.
Michael
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Date: Wed, Feb 11, 1998 at 00:04:01 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: Mickey the Pharisee
Subject: Re: Scott (Re: The Badnesh bus to Orlando)
Message:
Hi Scott!
Amherst was in December 74
and Orlando was in December 75.
I have the divine times of those events somewhere if
you want any details.
BBurke
Well, I don't want to be too technical, but Amherst was a Guru Puja festival in July, 1974. On the U Mass campus with outside programs. That wouldn't have worked in December in Mass.
Orlando '75 was a Hans Jayanti festival and was in November. I also rode a bus to that program, all the way from San Antonio, Texas and back, with about 100 premies. What a joy THAT was! I also recall that festival because my brother and his wife had just received knowledge and it was the first time I had seen them since they had. They took a picture of me that my brother used to drag out and laugh at. I look like the ultimate ashram/cult member. I look absolutely anorexic, awfully skinny, wearing one of those mexican wedding shirts and old, worn out Earth Shoes. I also had the obligatory DLM brother's haircut that made me look like St. John or something. Cringe!
BTW -- my brother and his wife left Maharaji long before I did and if you think I'm critical of M, you should have heard what they had to say!
Ha ha, Joe, that's a great description of how so many of us looked then! I went to Hans Jayanti in Orlando in '75, and I wore a Mexican Wedding shirt and earth shoes, too! My hair was shoulder length and I wore a stupid little mustache, then too. I remember going to the edges of the festival site to purchase cigarettes (man, was I in my mind!) and being amazed at how strange things were on the fringes. I hurried back to my place near the stage where I could sing inane songs and listen to satsang and not think or hear my doubts.
Michael
YOU, SMOKED????? My God. How did you live with yourself? I was in the depths of the ashram by 1975 and didn't so much of anything as a result. I recall at the Orlando program M arrived to the stage by boat accross a lake. I remember singing arti at the nightly programs and M gave darshan in a big tent. The Krishna outfit was prominent, but M wasn't dancing stripped to the waist yet at that point.
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Date: Wed, Feb 11, 1998 at 08:20:41 (EST)
Poster: fhgkjhg
Email: **
To: JW
Subject: Re: Scott (Re: The Badnesh bus to Orlando)
Message:
Your right, the November 74 event was in Toronto wasn't
it? Yeah.
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Date: Wed, Feb 11, 1998 at 19:21:19 (EST)
Poster: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net
To: JW
Subject: Re: Scott (Re: The Badnesh bus to Orlando)
Message:
Hi Scott!
Amherst was in December 74
and Orlando was in December 75.
I have the divine times of those events somewhere if
you want any details.
BBurke
Well, I don't want to be too technical, but Amherst was a Guru Puja festival in July, 1974. On the U Mass campus with outside programs. That wouldn't have worked in December in Mass.
Orlando '75 was a Hans Jayanti festival and was in November. I also rode a bus to that program, all the way from San Antonio, Texas and back, with about 100 premies. What a joy THAT was! I also recall that festival because my brother and his wife had just received knowledge and it was the first time I had seen them since they had. They took a picture of me that my brother used to drag out and laugh at. I look like the ultimate ashram/cult member. I look absolutely anorexic, awfully skinny, wearing one of those mexican wedding shirts and old, worn out Earth Shoes. I also had the obligatory DLM brother's haircut that made me look like St. John or something. Cringe!
BTW -- my brother and his wife left Maharaji long before I did and if you think I'm critical of M, you should have heard what they had to say!
Ha ha, Joe, that's a great description of how so many of us looked then! I went to Hans Jayanti in Orlando in '75, and I wore a Mexican Wedding shirt and earth shoes, too! My hair was shoulder length and I wore a stupid little mustache, then too. I remember going to the edges of the festival site to purchase cigarettes (man, was I in my mind!) and being amazed at how strange things were on the fringes. I hurried back to my place near the stage where I could sing inane songs and listen to satsang and not think or hear my doubts.
Michael
YOU, SMOKED????? My God. How did you live with yourself? I was in the depths of the ashram by 1975 and didn't so much of anything as a result. I recall at the Orlando program M arrived to the stage by boat accross a lake. I remember singing arti at the nightly programs and M gave darshan in a big tent. The Krishna outfit was prominent, but M wasn't dancing stripped to the waist yet at that point.
Yeah, I smoked in those days. Maybe that's why I couldn't do the nectar technique. I used bad language then, too, and lusted, too, and that is why I never entered the ashram. I also said bad things about M's cars, and once I replaced the joss sticks in front of M's picture in the Premie house with sparklers just before satsang. I was a baaad boy!
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Date: Mon, Feb 9, 1998 at 09:57:01 (EST)
Poster: Ah do-do-do, Ada-da-da,
Email:
To: *
Subject: Is all I want to say to you
Message:
Your so westrn Mili I'm sure you know that song by sting.
Maybe the Brit's can confirm or deny the persistent rumours that
sting recieved knowledge in the early millenium.
Anyway, that song is my new theme song.
The title of this post was originally going to be -love shmove.
What IS this issue of love anyway.
Maybe the translation from aramaic to english distorted the
meaning. Because I refuse to try to attain some loving
relationship unless it comes by itself.
I can alter my attitude, but I refuse to just gush affection
or whatever.
What is the deal?
I can relate to LIKING everybody and LIKING the power and
LIKING myself. And is that ok with the power/god?
(I'm not addressing you mili at this point unless you
meditated for a little over 5 hours and became permanently
at one with god, Trent, and maharaji.)
I am not going to just wish myself into some loving state
and set a new hoop for me to jump through.
Hello power/friend/god.
I am really impressed with this creation and I love my life
now and I am more than willing to try to adjust my attitude
so that I try to make others happy by just doing the easy things
it takes to kind of make thier day.
I'm glad to find out that I just have to accept your
existance and accept you as a friend and we can get along.
You know I listened to christian radio last night for hours
and I just cannot turn into a clone of those guys. You also
might recall I could not give regular satsang either when I
thought You were in maharaji's body.
I accept that you hear me and you are wecome to be my friend
and we can have some fun. I am going to trust that this is
not a fantasy and the halarious example anon gave of someone
walking down the street muttering to himself is not actually
going to be the case.
This is my commitment to all the indicaters that say you exist.
I think this will be a good and safe way to go along.
By the way, am I right about my guess about why all the religions
bury the breath two minutes after the main guy dies?
I think you are a little vulnerable on this issue and I am
not going to push it.
I would like to just feel love or rather feel at least some
good feeling inside. I know I can make effort in that regard
and ok I will. This is really a great place and I would
like to appreciate everything around me be kind and happy and
awake. You know how I think about things, I think that people
that get too involved in groups that try to serve you or talk
about you are playing with fire and there is plenty of them
anyway and I will be steering clear of that arena.
So how about I relax about doing something for you and I will
live and see what happens.
It's quite a world. I am not sure what 18 billion years
of change was designed to bring about, but I know there is
a larger intelligence and you are it.
What should I call You?
None of the usual names please.
I would like to live in such a way that we are such
good adventurous friends that when I die we meet and
have a good laugh.
Talk to you later.
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Date: Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 09:08:36 (EST)
Poster: Anonomousie
Email:
To: Ah do-do-do, Ada-da-da,
Subject: Conversion Aversion (Re: Is all I want to say to you)
Message:
I thought I was on the born again web site when I read
some of these threads.
I recently became a Christian Scientist. It was the only
health plan I could afford.
I used to be a Militant Agnostic-I don't know and you
don't know either.
How do you explain human suffering if there is a god?
Shouldn't god be the one explaining?
When we talk to god we're praying. When god talks to us
we're schizophrenic.
Stand firm in your refusal to remain concious during your
life.
I used to get high on life but I've built up a tolerance.
Now, life is something to do when I can't get to sleep.
Happiness is good health and a bad memory.
Hope is the feeling you have that the feeling
you have isn't permanent.
Other than a dog, a book is your best friend.
Complex problems have simple, easy to understand,
wrong answers.
The story of earth; When beautiful places happen to
bad people.
I have a CARPE DIEM coffe mug and, truthfully, at six
in the morning the words do not make me want to sieze the
day. They make me want to slap a poet.
I read the news today, people are insane!
I don't buy temporary insanity as a murder defense.
Breaking into someones home and ironing all thier
clothes is temporary insanity.
Lets face it, God has a big ego problem.
Why do we always have to worship Him?
'Oh, your the greatest. You're perfect. We're fuckups.
You know everything. We're in the dark.'
Secure people don't need to hear that all the time.
I mean I'm glad your talking to god and all but
don't let me catch you posting something god told you.
love,
A
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Date: Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 10:00:45 (EST)
Poster: Steve A
Email:
To: Anonomousie
Subject: Re: Conversion Aversion (Re: Is all I want to say to you)
Message:
Maybe God doesn't need our praise or our worship. Try loving him that works much better.
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Date: Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 10:21:23 (EST)
Poster: ah do-do-do, ah da-da-da.
Email: **
To: Anonomousie
Subject: The innocence will pull me through (Re: Is all I want to say to you)
Message:
You are like a viral multiple personality disorder.
Jim had you and now I do.
I'm going to hand you over to Brian soon.
Or maybe we will all just pass you around the forum like
the cyber slut you are. No offense.
I don't know if you want to enter my-name the god-contest.
entries at this point include;
Trent.
Mr. Amazing.
Mr. Amazing, I have to admit I see some more of the
way things seem to be orchestrated in my life.
And I have to say it's some good conducting going on.
You are such a creative force! Last night I thought
you must have been a little pent up during the first
16 billion years of this universes' changes.
There is no award ceremony for creators of your caliber
so maybe I'll host an internet award ceremony for
creative works and I will nominate you.
Most of the award ceremonies are funny. There is a human
body, totally automated, totally amazing, some person
sings a song, or pretends to be someone they aren't,
and they win an acting award and this small-minded
ego bleats out a list of 'very dear friends' and says
this is the greatest moment of thier life.
Here you have gone and put into motion a manufactureing
process that makes all the elements, made a dna system,
(or whatever YOU call it), you add your very own self to
the human and thereby providing it with intelligence and
some of your creativity, made us into independent
minded droplets, (by the way, are YOU a planet sized
droplet and there is numerous of you and you are part of
something even bigger?)
Don't answer me that of course, Anonomousie would flip.
Anyway, we humans are really a piece of work aren't we?
We try to be creative but it doesn't measure up to
your example. I swear to --- I mean, remember last night?
That guy that was talking to me and he blurted out-
'The Jews are controlling everything'
It took me a moment to catch my breath and respond-
'well it's the aliens in the mountains that are controlling
THEM.'
Here you are. The ultimate creative life force and he
sees Jew's.
There is SO much creativity coming out of people now
and You are pleased with us?
I mean I read the papers too and you remember one of
Mili's posts this week pointing out bad behaviour?
It must stifle you to have us here, with these resources,
with this time, with all the technology, and like Mili
said, 'is this planet of technology wielding apes
worth it?' I say YES! and I hope you do too.
I think I understand that in your amazing creativity
you have made Love and I want to be someone that
lives up to whatever idea you have in mind when you
spend all this time and effort to do all this.
Do you have a surface tension too?
Are you only given one life bearing planet to have an
adventure with? And you gave us free will here on this one
because it makes for the most creativity? Even though
our performance is like it is, You DO influence us in
subtle ways don't you. This is like an amazing manifestation
of your creativity and I get to feel independent and
free and at home to live out a life of ____________________
I don't even want to fill in the blank.
Well, I'm impressed.
The dalia lama wants me to 'meditate on the emptyness'.
Are buddists being punished for something?
What more hell could there be than to walk in a fog
through YOUR fantastic wonderland.
Of course all the humans do that, but we don't go
around preaching emptyness. When we want to blot out
perfection we drink beer and watch tv!
Does that make it easier on you?
If fifty million people are watching a particular sitcom
that means there are 50 million less people doing harm
to each other for a while.
I guess you know the USA is 5 trillion in debt and rising
and in the next depression that will be a crushing burden
that will flatten the monsterous global-resource using
economy that provides for our out of control desires
and selfishness. OOPS, that is my view on it, maybe you
look at it someother way? Like say, a temporary blessing
that provides for a manifestation of a pent-up explosion
of creativity and nice life styles.
Anyway, thanks, I think I believe in you now for real.
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Date: Mon, Feb 9, 1998 at 00:38:42 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email: joger02@aol.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Why Do People LIKE Devotion?
Message:
Selena said that at a recent program they played an instrumental ARTI and she heard premies in the hall singing it or at least mouthing the words. She also said there is more and more devotional music, darshan etc. going on around Maharaji, perhaps similar to what was going on when I was a premie. It appeared to her that there were a number of premies who really WANT the full-blown devotional/worship trip of Maharaji back, and as the "Malibu Mole" mentioned, Maharaji is schizoprhenic about it himself. He wants it, but he knows it's really bad for propogation purposes. It scares new people away, despite his attempts to hide it from them when they first get involved. I find this tension very interesting.
But the questions remains: Why do people WANT and LIKE devotion? I think part of the answer is it can feel very good in the short run. There is a sort of freedom you can feel if you try to surrender to what you believe is a more-powerful/all-knowing being. I think in the abstract, some people LIKE the idea of being dominated and controlled, and and like the feeling of submission. They THINK it's some kind of love, but it is obviously "love" that is only going one way, and it's also "love" of someone you don't know at all, probably have never personally ever met, and because of that, it allows one to surrender to and "love" a fantasy. And I think premies can get addicted to this. I think I was addicted to it at one time.
The premies keep coming back to programs, etc. to try and get more of it, and any information that questions whether M is worthy of their devotion is ignored, rationalized, or vehemently attacked, because it threatens what they believe is the source of their devotional "fix," just like a drug addict will attack anyone who tries to prevent them from getting his or her drug of choice..
I think this mutual need -- the need of Maharaji to be worshipped and the need/desire of some premies to worship/devote-- is the game that's played to varying degrees between M and the premies. It can become so pervasive that you will hear premies, like one that posted recently, say they "love" M, despite never having met him, or others, having spent some days or weeks with M 25 years ago, but not since.
Don't let anyone be fooled. It is not an experience of meditation that M's trip is about. It is an experience of a kind of fake, devotional love. Meditation is just the carrot to get people involved in the first place, and I think it also provides the illusion that there is some kind of a connection to Maharaji, when one is not at a program.
By the way, as John said, that whole scenario/game is very well described in The Guru Papers.
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Date: Mon, Feb 9, 1998 at 01:25:36 (EST)
Poster: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net
To: JW
Subject: Re: Why Do People LIKE Devotion?
Message:
I agree, JW, people seem to enjoy devotion because it feels good in the short run. It's similar to the adulation given to movie stars and pop stars; some people just lose their heads when around celebrities. You've seen it at shows and stuff I'm sure. Many Teen-agers like to have millions of posters and pictures of their favorite pop stars, just like we all had of Maharaji (I know that I had quite the rougues gallery of framed pages from 'And it is Divine'). People enjoy that group experience of directing and focusing all their attention on an object of desire. I remember Festivals being similar to Revivals in Fundamentalist churches. Mindless devotion gives people a chance to direct their attention and love towards someone safe, someone they imagine won't break their hearts. Unfortunately, it seems that Maharaji didn't even care that people were handing him their hearts; he wasn't paying enough attention to realize or care that he was breaking them.
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Date: Mon, Feb 9, 1998 at 02:59:08 (EST)
Poster: Sir David
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: All
Subject: Re: Why Do People LIKE Devotion?
Message:
My problem as a premie was that I felt more devotion away from Maharaji than I did with him, in his presence. Because away from Maharaji I could create this Christ like figure who I believed was the Lord. Often, when I was with him I would be baffled as to who or what he was.
The idea of God incarnate who walks with us on the earth is a dream I held dear for many years. I wanted to lay my heart at his feet and felt I was lucky to know that God had come in human form. Devotion to God is a natural thing in human beings. It's something we can all relate to.
When it finally dawned on me that Maharaji wasn't God incarnate I was devastated. Completely and utterly devastated. Also the fact that Maharaji had purposely played upon human beings' desire to have a living God made me utterly sick at heart.
Premies liked devotion because they believed Maharaji was God. That song, "Maharaji you are the Lord, you've shown us by your word" and the other one, "He's come again, he's here" they used to send shivers down my spine. Because I really believed that the unbelievable had happened and God had come in human form. A blind fool I was but my devotion was for God and not Prem Pal.
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Date: Mon, Feb 9, 1998 at 09:55:48 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Mickey the Pharisee
Subject: Re: Why Do People LIKE Devotion?
Message:
Deena said once that, for some people, being devoted to Maharaji was safer than loving another human being. I think some people use their "love" for Maharaji from afar to avoid real intimacy.
I did have two premie boyfriends who were always agonizing about choosing between devotion to Maharaji and having a relationship with me (this sounds laughable now, but it was quite painful then). At that time, of course, devotion to Maharaji meant ONLY moving into the ashram, and both of these guys eventually did. I know that living in the ashram was quite difficult, but it was also a way that people could avoid having intimate relationships with other people. However, there was a lot of external pressure to move into the ashram back then - I wonder how much pressure there is to be "devoted" now? Or, maybe as JW says, people just want to do it?
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Date: Mon, Feb 9, 1998 at 10:08:22 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Sir David
Subject: Re: Why Do People LIKE Devotion?
Message:
My problem as a premie was that I felt more devotion away from Maharaji than I did with him, in his presence. Because away from Maharaji I could create this Christ like figure who I believed was the Lord. Often, when I was with him I would be baffled as to who or what he was.
The idea of God incarnate who walks with us on the earth is a dream I held dear for many years. I wanted to lay my heart at his feet and felt I was lucky to know that God had come in human form. Devotion to God is a natural thing in human beings. It's something we can all relate to.
When it finally dawned on me that Maharaji wasn't God incarnate I was devastated. Completely and utterly devastated. Also the fact that Maharaji had purposely played upon human beings' desire to have a living God made me utterly sick at heart.
Premies liked devotion because they believed Maharaji was God. That song, 'Maharaji you are the Lord, you've shown us by your word' and the other one, 'He's come again, he's here' they used to send shivers down my spine. Because I really believed that the unbelievable had happened and God had come in human form. A blind fool I was but my devotion was for God and not Prem Pal.
David, someone wrote on here once that recovering from being involved with Maharaji was like recovering from child abuse. In both cases, people really trust someone wholeheartedly and are lied to or mistreated or abused in some other way, so that that trust is broken.
I don't think you were a fool. Even though it really hurt, I think you were lucky to be able to feel that level of trust, and I hope you can stay open to it . I never ever really trusted Maharaji because I already had a deep core of cynicism and didn't trust ANYONE, even when I was sixteen. Thus I wasn't totally devastated when I figured out that Maharaji wasn't GOD - I never really believed he was (I'm not saying that I knew he wasn't, like some people on here have - I'm saying that I WANTED to believe he was God, but never could.) Anyway, I've had to work hard to get beyond my cynicism and inability to trust. It may have helped me with Maharaji, but it's hurt me in other, more important parts of my life).
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Date: Mon, Feb 9, 1998 at 10:28:33 (EST)
Poster: John K.
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: Why Do People LIKE Devotion?
Message:
A couple things, first, M is tapping in to a feeling that is already there, at least in most people it is, namely, devotion or love of GOD, which is a totally positive feeling.
I remember being overwhelmed by a feeling of God's love when I was 12 after being "Confirmed", a Catholic ritual with the Archbishop (or big chief), probably similar to the bar mitvah in the jewish faith. I had similar experiences going on camping trips, hikes in the woods, etc.
Love of God is love of god whether you feel it for M or Jesus or looking out at the grand canyon.
I think also it's a subtle way of surrenduring personal responsibility for success and failure in what we do.
"It does no matter if I succeed or fail at anything in life - God loves me no matter who I am. I don't have to do anything, or do anything well, I just need to love God!"
The path of Devotion is the perfect escape for under- or non- achievers.
I would not overlook the ego trip involved either, not so much with devotion but with overemphasizing the importance of the teacher. That is, I am devoted to the LIVING LORD, that's I as in ME, yeah he picked ME to reveal himself to. That's how incredible I am! I, being as great as I am, would not bother to follow any teacher who was NOT the superior power in person!
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Date: Mon, Feb 9, 1998 at 11:37:04 (EST)
Poster: Selena
Email:
To: everyone
Subject: Re: Why Do People LIKE Devotion?
Message:
Thanks for the info on the book The Guru Papers. I think I will get it. I feel like someone in a 12-step program at the moment, here I am counting the weeks since leaving this.
I am lucky in that, like Katie, I never could find M to be god incarnate. Darshan seemed really bizarre, I didn't find him all that appealing, etc. In fact, I wasn't involved from about 1980 until maybe '89, when I attended some Phoenix or LA event. I got into it again because premies and even Maharaji were not emphasizing the devotion to the master routine so much as the individual experience of knowledge. but, now I see that's just not true, it was just a way to keep the westerners around an attract new ones. I do think the the premies who have been into it all along want and think they need this devotion.. and from what I have seen personally, it is indeed a way to avoid or compensate for lack of intimacy in their relationships. About a week before Long Beach, a premie brought over a video to watch with me. It was M riding around on a tractor. His satsang in the background was something about a farmer planting seeds, etc.. She was all into this video and I sat there trying to be polite and hopiing it was short. I should have known then and saved myself about $600 travel expeneses!!
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Date: Mon, Feb 9, 1998 at 12:39:48 (EST)
Poster: selena
Email:
To: everyone
Subject: Re: Why Do People LIKE Devotion?
Message:
Mindless devotion gives people a chance to direct their attention and love towards someone safe, someone they imagine won't break their hearts. Unfortunately, it seems that Maharaji didn't even care that people were handing him their hearts; he wasn't paying enough attention to realize or care that he was breaking them.The sad part is, most of the premies don't see him breaking their hearts, since it is true about it being so much safer to give all your love to someone distant, someone you can fantasize about and turn a blind eye to any faults some awful person like me may point out about their beloved! I feel for the loved ones of those premies, it must be hard to try to understand why the person they care about cares more about Maharaji than them. This is one of the tragedies of cult worship.
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Date: Mon, Feb 9, 1998 at 13:22:06 (EST)
Poster: Joy
Email: Bluebirdd@aol.com
To: JW
Subject: Re: Why Do People LIKE Devotion?
Message:
JW, you have echoed my thoughts completely with this post. Ever since hearing about the very hushed arti singing at the L.B. program, I have been thinking a lot about this devotion issue, as that post made it obvious that people really DO want to experience devotion, it's not just something M. demands and suckers people into. Some people further down the list here talk about devotion to God, and how it gets misplaced onto M., and I think that's pretty close to the mark; and also that it's a great way to avoid intimate relationships with other human beings, as you're too busy having an experience with your "divine lover".
A lot of the Eastern religions offer devotion as the ultimate spiritual path. It was the whole thing between Krishna and the gopis, and that was really also the way I related to Maharaji, the exquisite longing for the Lord's physical form. (Note that this was not a sexual longing -- I was quite happy when he got married, as it was always obvious to me at 5'9" tall that Maharaji was not my physical mate). Tibetan Buddhism also offers "guru yoga" as the highest of its paths towards enlightenment, where you pray to and merge your consciousness with that of the guru (in this case, a disembodied 6th century guru, but a guru nonetheless). Also, in Tibetan Buddhism, this type of guru yoga is also encouraged to be practiced with your own lama, incarnate teacher, and I have seen people doing prostrations (the Buddhist version of pranam) to their teacher. So it's not a phenomenon exclusive to Hindu religions alone.
But I have been thinking a lot about WHY this particular form of religious experience is attractive, and is advocated as the highest of paths. I'm not sure I've come up with any anwers at this point. All I know is it a very exquisite experience, and one which certain types of personalities are very drawn to (myself included). Why, for instance, when I became involved with Buddhism five years ago (something I'm now moving away from, by the way), did I go straight for the devotional brand of it (Tibetan Vajrayana) as opposed to something more abstract and emotionless, such as Zen or Vipassana? Once I got down to the essence of that path, it was, for me, VERY similar to what had happened with Maharaji 15 years earlier, and once I realized that, I immediately put a safe distance between the teacher, group and myself. But why am I, and others, drawn to this experience? I seems to me like taking a good drug, it dissolves a lot of boundaries, ego boundaries or whatever, and you feel a sense of "at-one-ness" with creation, and a profound love (for lack of a better word) for not just your teacher but everyone and everything else, at least while the glow of the "darshan" remains in effect, which isn't very long. Hence, you need your next fix. It's a rather addictive experience, and I think one which only generally comes in the presence of a live teacher, thereby providing employment for lots of satgurus, etc.
I think I've got to go get The Guru Papers and read it again; read it once about a year ago, and I know it addresses these issues fairly well. As stated by others, it's recommended reading for the site. Well, those are my thoughts on it for now, more to come later.
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Date: Mon, Feb 9, 1998 at 14:58:38 (EST)
Poster: A premie
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: Why Do People LIKE Devotion?
Message:
Selena said that at a recent program they played an instrumental ARTI and she heard premies in the hall singing it or at least mouthing the words. She also said there is more and more devotional music, darshan etc. going on around Maharaji, perhaps similar to what was going on when I was a premie. It appeared to her that there were a number of premies who really WANT the full-blown devotional/worship trip of Maharaji back, and as the 'Malibu Mole' mentioned, Maharaji is schizoprhenic about it himself. He wants it, but he knows it's really bad for propogation purposes. It scares new people away, despite his attempts to hide it from them when they first get involved. I find this tension very interesting.
But the questions remains: Why do people WANT and LIKE devotion? I think part of the answer is it can feel very good in the short run. There is a sort of freedom you can feel if you try to surrender to what you believe is a more-powerful/all-knowing being. I think in the abstract, some people LIKE the idea of being dominated and controlled, and and like the feeling of submission. They THINK it's some kind of love, but it is obviously 'love' that is only going one way, and it's also 'love' of someone you don't know at all, probably have never personally ever met, and because of that, it allows one to surrender to and 'love' a fantasy. And I think premies can get addicted to this. I think I was addicted to it at one time.
The premies keep coming back to programs, etc. to try and get more of it, and any information that questions whether M is worthy of their devotion is ignored, rationalized, or vehemently attacked, because it threatens what they believe is the source of their devotional 'fix,' just like a drug addict will attack anyone who tries to prevent them from getting his or her drug of choice..
I think this mutual need -- the need of Maharaji to be worshipped and the need/desire of some premies to worship/devote-- is the game that's played to varying degrees between M and the premies. It can become so pervasive that you will hear premies, like one that posted recently, say they 'love' M, despite never having met him, or others, having spent some days or weeks with M 25 years ago, but not since.
Don't let anyone be fooled. It is not an experience of meditation that M's trip is about. It is an experience of a kind of fake, devotional love. Meditation is just the carrot to get people involved in the first place, and I think it also provides the illusion that there is some kind of a connection to Maharaji, when one is not at a program.
By the way, as John said, that whole scenario/game is very well described in The Guru Papers.
Because it feels good. Because the bond of love is the greatest relationship we know as humans. Because the love between master and student is pure. You've clearly missed the point my skeptical friend.
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Date: Mon, Feb 9, 1998 at 15:05:49 (EST)
Poster: John Cavad
Email:
To: Joy
Subject: Re: Why Do People LIKE Devotion?
Message:
Hope this helps. Here's a passage from my bible, The Guru Papers:
"Surrender is on of the most powerful forces and emotional states that a human being can touch into. Passion literally means abandonment, letting go; thus surrender is a way to passion. It is possible to surrender to many aspects of life: a person, an ideal, a religion....Surrender is so potent because it shifts control to an arena that is free, or more free, from one's inner dramas and the conflicts involved in personal decisions. "
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Date: Mon, Feb 9, 1998 at 15:29:09 (EST)
Poster: John Cavad
Email:
To: John Cavad
Subject: Re: Why Do People LIKE Devotion?
Message:
"Blind surrender to authority is an emotional indulgence and illusory security the species can no longer afford."
"Surrender is the glue that binds the guru and disciple."
"The ostensibel reason forfostering surrender is it detaches followers from certain deep conditionings presumed to be obstacles on the spiritual path. But it does not detach them from one of the most insidious and powerful condtionings of all - the prediliction to look for an authority that one can trust more than oneself!"
ON GMJ:
"The idea that any one mind has a corner on the truth creates isolation that is extraordinary. This easily leads to deterioration of physical or mental health...a great danger for gurus is emotional isolation." Gurus and disciples need each other as roles, not as individuals, which makes real human connection almost impossible.
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Date: Mon, Feb 9, 1998 at 15:42:07 (EST)
Poster: A premie
Email:
To: selena
Subject: Re: Why Do People LIKE Devotion?
Message:
Mindless devotion gives people a chance to direct their attention and love towards someone safe, someone they imagine won't break their hearts. Unfortunately, it seems that Maharaji didn't even care that people were handing him their hearts; he wasn't paying enough attention to realize or care that he was breaking them.The sad part is, most of the premies don't see him breaking their hearts, since it is true about it being so much safer to give all your love to someone distant, someone you can fantasize about and turn a blind eye to any faults some awful person like me may point out about their beloved! I feel for the loved ones of those premies, it must be hard to try to understand why the person they care about cares more about Maharaji than them. This is one of the tragedies of cult worship.
Devotion is a unique relationship. Ask yourself, if someone where truly devoted to you, could you deal with the responsibility? It would be a huge responsibility that I'd say would be an impossible task for 99% of us.
So, where can this wonderful relationship between two individuals exist - only in our dreams? My take is, no, it does exist. But it only exists between a true master and a true student.
You see I have never experienced a broken heart with Maharaji. But I don't expect a heck of a lot - just love and kindness, and he has never disappointed me. If you don't want to participate in that relationship Selena, then that's cool, but why don't you stop speculating about others when you clearly don't have a clue about what's in their heart.
Another thing, you do not understand this relationship by virtue of have been 'Initiated' into meditation, or having lived in a monestary for 10 years, or eating raw fish, or anything. Katie using this argument to the aspirant is logical (so it appeals to you lovers of logic) but invalid. True devotion is much more rare than the number of people who have received Knowledge. To experience it once in a lifetime is to know the ultimate that life can give. Sorry guys, but it's true.
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Date: Mon, Feb 9, 1998 at 15:48:13 (EST)
Poster: StephenB
Email: brunston@tde.com
To: all Interested
Subject: One theory on Devotion/Projection (Re: Why Do People LIKE Devotion?)
Message:
I think that it is in a humans' nature to surrender to God. It feels good and brings peace. I also think that the devotion outside of ourselves is a projection of our need onto a handy object (some religions do use objects) and can be usefull in learning and seeing this about ourselves. The good teacher uses that devotion (admiration) and directs it toward God for the growth and benefit of the person. The self-centered teacher (preist, shaman) uses the power for self advancement, ego ect. (HA M talked about false Gurus all the time in his Sat sang in the earily 70s) Projection in itself is not a bad thing, twisted it becomes evil, power over others.
Thoughts?
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Date: Mon, Feb 9, 1998 at 16:23:19 (EST)
Poster: Selena
Email:
To: A premie
Subject: Re: Why Do People LIKE Devotion?
Message:
The sad part is, most of the premies don't see him breaking their hearts, since it is true about it being so much safer to give all your love to someone distant, someone you can fantasize about and turn a blind eye to any faults some awful person like me may point out about their beloved! I feel for the loved ones of those premies, it must be hard to try to understand why the person they care about cares more about Maharaji than them. This is one of the tragedies of cult worship.
Devotion is a unique relationship. Ask yourself, if someone where truly devoted to you, could you deal with the responsibility? It would be a huge responsibility that I'd say would be an impossible task for 99% of us.
So, where can this wonderful relationship between two individuals exist - only in our dreams? My take is, no, it does exist. But it only exists between a true master and a true student.
You see I have never experienced a broken heart with Maharaji. But I don't expect a heck of a lot - just love and kindness, and he has never disappointed me. If you don't want to participate in that relationship Selena, then that's cool, but why don't you stop speculating about others when you clearly don't have a clue about what's in their heart.
Another thing, you do not understand this relationship by virtue of have been 'Initiated' into meditation, or having lived in a monestary for 10 years, or eating raw fish, or anything. Katie using this argument to the aspirant is logical (so it appeals to you lovers of logic) but invalid. True devotion is much more rare than the number of people who have received Knowledge. To experience it once in a lifetime is to know the ultimate that life can give. Sorry guys, but it's true.
First, the point of my post dealt with, how do the ones close to thesse great premie saints feel when they are put aside often enough, for the selfish, uh, excuse me, "selfless", devotion?
As for responsibility, I have had and managed great responsibilty in my life. I didn't have thousands of dollars pouring in from basically unknown individuals helping, either.
He never had to deal with me personally, and from what I have read, those who had conflicts or problems and tried to contact M never got an answer, unless maybe they had boucoup $$$$ (?), so I ask YOU, what is this great responsibility you talk about?
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Date: Mon, Feb 9, 1998 at 16:34:30 (EST)
Poster: Selena
Email:
To: everyone
Subject: Re: Why Do People LIKE Devotion?
Message:
ugh, I quoted only part of "A premies" message, and the rest looks like it's from me! I hope people can see that only the last 2 paragraphs were mine, I wouldn't ever ever want credit for the rest.
Guess I got a little upset there. This "unique relationship" stuff gets to me. If the experience of true love is unusual for someone, and the only way they can experience it is thru M; well, I am happy to say that is not the case with me, I have had many powerful loving healing spiritual relationships.
My children, my husband, my true friends...
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Date: Mon, Feb 9, 1998 at 16:44:09 (EST)
Poster: VP
Email:
To: John K.
Subject: Re: Why Do People LIKE Devotion?
Message:
A couple things, first, M is tapping in to a feeling that is already there, at least in most people it is, namely, devotion or love of GOD, which is a totally positive feeling.
I remember being overwhelmed by a feeling of God's love when I was 12 after being 'Confirmed', a Catholic ritual with the Archbishop (or big chief), probably similar to the bar mitvah in the jewish faith. I had similar experiences going on camping trips, hikes in the woods, etc.
Love of God is love of god whether you feel it for M or Jesus or looking out at the grand canyon.
I think also it's a subtle way of surrenduring personal responsibility for success and failure in what we do.
'It does no matter if I succeed or fail at anything in life - God loves me no matter who I am. I don't have to do anything, or do anything well, I just need to love God!'
The path of Devotion is the perfect escape for under- or non- achievers.
I would not overlook the ego trip involved either, not so much with devotion but with overemphasizing the importance of the teacher. That is, I am devoted to the LIVING LORD, that's I as in ME, yeah he picked ME to reveal himself to. That's how incredible I am! I, being as great as I am, would not bother to follow any teacher who was NOT the superior power in person!
I could never get devoted to M. John K. says that underachievers can escape through devotion. I have been guilty of being a huge perfectionist. If you look up overachiever in the dictionary, you will find "VP" written there. ( I wasn't on an ego trip, though.) So maybe that's why I couldn't give up the reigns.
I guess I was attracted to the idea of Devotion because it looked like an escape from having to try to be so "perfect" all of the time. (Which is unattainable anyway. It's easy to get in a real funk when you are always falling short of a mark that is impossible to hit). I have found a lot more healthy ways to get out of this trap. Getting into another trap isn't the answer.
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Date: Mon, Feb 9, 1998 at 16:45:48 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: A premie
Subject: Re: Why Do People LIKE Devotion?
Message:
//i>Because it feels good. Because the bond of love is the greatest relationship we know as humans. Because the love between master and student is pure. You've clearly missed the point my skeptical friend.
No, I don't think I've "missed the point" at all, and perhaps skepticism isn't such a bad thing. I have definitely experience "devotion" but I entirely disagree that it was "the greatest relationship we know as humans." In fact, it is an extremely limiting and stagnating thing, although I do agree that it felt really good at the time, or at least some of the time.
What I have discovered, slowly, after getting out of that unhealthy "relationship" with Maharaji, is that there is a much higher love, based on mutual equality and respect. That didn't exist with Maharaji. I never even spoke to M even once in my entire life, and he didn't even know I existed. As I said, that "devotion" is ALL one way, and that is very unhealthy, and ultimately very unsatisfying.
The only reason I was ever able to believe, like you apparently still do, that the "love between master and student is pure" was because I did believe it. Since there was zero responsibility on Maharaji's part, except to take what I gave him, all the way to the bank, and occasionally show up on time and allow me to kiss his feet, and say some of the right stuff, I could make that "devotion" as "pure" as I wanted it to be. There was no check on it in the real world. [I also echo Selena's question as to WHAT responsibility has M really taken in response to the devotion given to him? Except being the object of the devotion I mean, which doesn't take much responsibility at all.]
But not only is it NOT really pure, it isn't even "love" it's rather a one-way facsimile of "love" that can get people sidetracked from the things that are really important in their lives, for a long time. It did that to me. And I learned that the HARD way.
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Date: Mon, Feb 9, 1998 at 17:31:55 (EST)
Poster: Selena
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: Why Do People LIKE to bring up the "heart"? (Re: Why Do People LIKE Devotion?)
Message:
I find it interesting that "A Premie" has no problem telling someone they have missed the point, yet in the same thread this person tells me to stop speculating about what is in someone else's heart.
Seems like a little speculating goes on with all of us, even gasp! premies!
Anyway, isn't the title of this thread an invitation to speculation? Maybe it's only for us dummies to speculate, not for those who know the "real" truth. Perhaps, and I speculate, they don't have to speculate?.
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Date: Mon, Feb 9, 1998 at 17:51:30 (EST)
Poster: Anon
Email:
To: A premie
Subject: Re: Why Do People LIKE Devotion?
Message:
Because it feels good. Because the bond of love is the greatest relationship we know as humans. Because the love between master and student is pure. You've clearly missed it the point my skeptical friend.
What point??
You speak very confidently albeit a little too briefly, but please carry on. What is it is exactly about the love between a master and a student that is so pure?
Secondly please explain if you will, the point that you think is being so clearlymissed here.
I don't think that what you said is quite enough of an explanation to clarify the matter if you don't mind me saying.
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Date: Mon, Feb 9, 1998 at 17:58:38 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: Selena
Subject: Re: Why Do People LIKE to bring up the 'heart'? (Re: Why Do People LIKE Devotion?)
Message:
I find it interesting that 'A Premie' has no problem telling someone they have missed the point, yet in the same thread this person tells me to stop speculating about what is in someone else's heart.
Seems like a little speculating goes on with all of us, even gasp! premies!
Anyway, isn't the title of this thread an invitation to speculation? Maybe it's only for us dummies to speculate, not for those who know the 'real' truth. Perhaps, and I speculate, they don't have to speculate?.
I agree. And speculation can be informed or uninformed. What makes the speculation of ex-premies so confronting to premies, is that we've been there, where they are, and came out the other side. I don't have to speculate as to what I, personally, felt and believe to be true. While I admit that other people might see things differently, and everyone is entitled to their own beliefs, I think the purpose of this forum is to give the views of the non-believing (and here is speculation, "non-programmed" premies).
But if this thing is so ultimate, it's hard for a premie to say it works for some and not others, or it's matter of personal taste or belief. No, they have to say, like "A Premie" implies, either that I missed the point and never experienced the glories of "devotion," or I have since become a confused wreck because of my own inadequacies. Certainly, it could have nothing to do with any inadequacies of Maharaji or "devotion." Indeed, I've been there and used to think the same deluded thoughts.
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Date: Mon, Feb 9, 1998 at 19:11:31 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: A premie
Subject: To "A Premie" (Re: Why Do People LIKE Devotion?)
Message:
Another thing, you do not understand this relationship by virtue of have been 'Initiated' into meditation, or having lived in a monestary for 10 years, or eating raw fish, or anything. Katie using this argument to the aspirant is logical (so it appeals to you lovers of logic) but invalid. True devotion is much more rare than the number of people who have received Knowledge. To experience it once in a lifetime is to know the ultimate that life can give. Sorry guys, but it's true.
Dear Premie -
I am kind of at a loss to understand what you said about what I wrote above. I think you meant that I equated living in the ashram with true devotion. But I think you may have missed my point. My post wasn't an argument, it was a personal experience. When I was a premie, living in the ashram if you possibly could WAS often equated with devotion to M.
Every once and a while a premie comes on this site and says, like you, that our (the ex-premie's) problem is that we never experienced the REAL Knowledge, or, in your case, that we never experienced TRUE devotion. I'm willing to admit that that's true, in my case, because I never experienced all that much, even though I did practice meditation, attend satsang (when we were allowed to), do service, and try to be devoted to Maharaji. But how come Maharaji is going around giving knowledge to all these people and saying that anyone can experience it if the actual experience is reserved for the elite few such as yourself?
All I can say is I am glad that we have the ex-premie page for all those sorry people like me who receive and practice Knowledge but don't experience true devotion.
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Date: Mon, Feb 9, 1998 at 19:21:24 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Selena
Subject: To Selena (Re: Why Do People LIKE Devotion?)
Message:
You see I have never experienced a broken heart with Maharaji. But I don't expect a heck of a lot - just love and kindness, and he has never disappointed me. If you don't want to participate in that relationship Selena, then that's cool, but why don't you stop speculating about others when you clearly don't have a clue about what's in their heart.
Hi Selena - I'm surprised that "a premie" wrote the above to you. Obviously, since you were also a premie just recently, and know many other premies and were at the program in Long Beach, etc., you do have at least "a clue" as to what some of the other premies are thinking and feeling.
Premies like you that left Maharaji and EV recently can be very threatening to other premies, and some of them will try and discount your statements by saying things like the above. It's pretty easy for them to brush off people like me by saying that we don't know what's going on these days, but they can't say that to you. So they may try to make you wrong in another way. Hang in there! "A Premie" is entitled to his/her views about us, but you're entitled to express your opinions as well. Many of us appreciate hearing from you very much.
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Date: Mon, Feb 9, 1998 at 21:13:56 (EST)
Poster: Joy
Email:
To: A premie
Subject: Re: Why Do People LIKE Devotion?
Message:
I take issue with the way you assume and state that people posting here regarding devotion have never experienced it truly. That most definiteliy could not be said of me. I was well and truly "in love" with M. for almost ten years, and experienced an absolute devotion and love for him which was like no other I've ever experienced. In short, the experience you refer to. And having come out the other side of that experience, I can definitely second all the things being said here by the "ex's" regarding devotion and how it is ultimately an escape from "reality" and of more benefit, particularly financially, to the guru end of the equation. As JW stated, MJ never even spoke to him once. I can say the same, after eight years of ashram and IHQ service. How can that be real devotion, if he doesn't even know who you are (or care)? You are devoted to a FANTASY.
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Date: Mon, Feb 9, 1998 at 21:56:45 (EST)
Poster: Joy
Email: Bluebirdd@aol.com
To: A Premie
Subject: Re: Why Do People LIKE Devotion?
Message:
I take issue with the way you assume and state that people posting here regarding devotion have never experienced it truly. That most definiteliy could not be said of me. I was well and truly 'in love' with M. for almost ten years, and experienced an absolute devotion and love for him which was like no other I've ever experienced. In short, the experience you refer to. And having come out the other side of that experience, I can definitely second all the things being said here by the 'ex's' regarding devotion and how it is ultimately an escape from 'reality' and of more benefit, particularly financially, to the guru end of the equation. As JW stated, MJ never even spoke to him once. I can say the same, after eight years of ashram and IHQ service. How can that be real devotion, if he doesn't even know who you are (or care)? You are devoted to a FANTASY.
I wish to apologize if the tone of my previous post was a little heavy or critical. I have no wish to criticize your experience of devotion and Maharaji. I think what you were probably trying to say is that you cannot understand how if any of us had had the incredible devotion experience which has been so profound in your life, we could ever leave it and turn into the people you see posting here on the site. Therefore you have to assume our experience was not a "true" one. I admit the experience is a very profound and incredible one, unlike no other. But there is a downside, and that is what this site is all about. If you wish to continue this devotion experience with Maharaji in your life, well and good, but please expect that if you read this site and post things like that here, that experience and its ramifications will come under scrutiny and be discussed from various angles, many of which will be very confronting or difficult to accept.
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Date: Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 10:47:39 (EST)
Poster: Scott
Email: stalking@freewheeling.com
To: A premie
Subject: Re: Why Do People LIKE Devotion?
Message:
A premie:
I'm sure you don't really wish to be considered rude, but it is usually thought to be bad form to post a message in which your comments are only about .001 percent of the response. It's alright to say that someone is wrong and attribute that to skepticism, but to be taken seriously you have to be a bit more "engaged."
I don't wish to offend. All of us can relate to your attitude. Most of us are not so cynical that we would fault your basic or underlying premise about life. It's just a bit more of a challenge to fly this mission semi-solo. I find that a bit more rewarding than scraping my nose on the pavement all the time.
-Scott
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Date: Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 12:37:38 (EST)
Poster: Selena
Email:
To: Katie
Subject: Re: To Selena (Re: Why Do People LIKE Devotion?)
Message:
You see I have never experienced a broken heart with Maharaji. But I don't expect a heck of a lot - just love and kindness, and he has never disappointed me. If you don't want to participate in that relationship Selena, then that's cool, but why don't you stop speculating about others when you clearly don't have a clue about what's in their heart.
Hi Selena - I'm surprised that 'a premie' wrote the above to you. Obviously, since you were also a premie just recently, and know many other premies and were at the program in Long Beach, etc., you do have at least 'a clue' as to what some of the other premies are thinking and feeling.
Premies like you that left Maharaji and EV recently can be very threatening to other premies, and some of them will try and discount your statements by saying things like the above. It's pretty easy for them to brush off people like me by saying that we don't know what's going on these days, but they can't say that to you. So they may try to make you wrong in another way. Hang in there! 'A Premie' is entitled to his/her views about us, but you're entitled to express your opinions as well. Many of us appreciate hearing from you very much.
Thank you Katie. I have been around premies so long that you wouldn't think this type of thing would bother me.
Someone said an interesting thing to me about this stuff (she is not a premie and not interested in being one)
She said she was not impressed by some people's religiosity.
I like that word. It seems quite descriptive. I think I'll elaborate in a new thread soon.
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Date: Wed, Feb 11, 1998 at 22:37:22 (EST)
Poster: A premie
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: Why Do People LIKE Devotion?
Message:
//i>Because it feels good. Because the bond of love is the greatest relationship we know as humans. Because the love between master and student is pure. You've clearly missed the point my skeptical friend.
No, I don't think I've 'missed the point' at all, and perhaps skepticism isn't such a bad thing. I have definitely experience 'devotion' but I entirely disagree that it was 'the greatest relationship we know as humans.' In fact, it is an extremely limiting and stagnating thing, although I do agree that it felt really good at the time, or at least some of the time.
What I have discovered, slowly, after getting out of that unhealthy 'relationship' with Maharaji, is that there is a much higher love, based on mutual equality and respect. That didn't exist with Maharaji. I never even spoke to M even once in my entire life, and he didn't even know I existed. As I said, that 'devotion' is ALL one way, and that is very unhealthy, and ultimately very unsatisfying.
The only reason I was ever able to believe, like you apparently still do, that the 'love between master and student is pure' was because I did believe it. Since there was zero responsibility on Maharaji's part, except to take what I gave him, all the way to the bank, and occasionally show up on time and allow me to kiss his feet, and say some of the right stuff, I could make that 'devotion' as 'pure' as I wanted it to be. There was no check on it in the real world. [I also echo Selena's question as to WHAT responsibility has M really taken in response to the devotion given to him? Except being the object of the devotion I mean, which doesn't take much responsibility at all.]
But not only is it NOT really pure, it isn't even 'love' it's rather a one-way facsimile of 'love' that can get people sidetracked from the things that are really important in their lives, for a long time. It did that to me. And I learned that the HARD way.
The "devotion" you talk about is clearly NOT the same one as what I talk about.
I venture to say that I've experienced all the usual forms of love that you have Joe - we're really not much different. I've had and have wonderful relationships that were and are built on mutual equality and respect. My read is that devotion tops them all.
Belief has nothing to do with what one feels in their heart. If you say any differently, you belittle the one thing that can be a true guiding vector in our lives. That is because belief can be manipulated - the heart is the only part that cannot be manipulated. My love for Maharaji has nothing to do with belief. It just feels good where it counts. In that respect for me it's sort of like the sunshine.
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Date: Wed, Feb 11, 1998 at 22:47:17 (EST)
Poster: A premie
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: Why Do People LIKE to bring up the 'heart'? (Re: Why Do People LIKE Devotion?)
Message:
I find it interesting that 'A Premie' has no problem telling someone they have missed the point, yet in the same thread this person tells me to stop speculating about what is in someone else's heart.
Seems like a little speculating goes on with all of us, even gasp! premies!
Anyway, isn't the title of this thread an invitation to speculation? Maybe it's only for us dummies to speculate, not for those who know the 'real' truth. Perhaps, and I speculate, they don't have to speculate?.
I agree. And speculation can be informed or uninformed. What makes the speculation of ex-premies so confronting to premies, is that we've been there, where they are, and came out the other side. I don't have to speculate as to what I, personally, felt and believe to be true. While I admit that other people might see things differently, and everyone is entitled to their own beliefs, I think the purpose of this forum is to give the views of the non-believing (and here is speculation, 'non-programmed' premies).
But if this thing is so ultimate, it's hard for a premie to say it works for some and not others, or it's matter of personal taste or belief. No, they have to say, like 'A Premie' implies, either that I missed the point and never experienced the glories of 'devotion,' or I have since become a confused wreck because of my own inadequacies. Certainly, it could have nothing to do with any inadequacies of Maharaji or 'devotion.' Indeed, I've been there and used to think the same deluded thoughts.
Get it straight Joe (scuze the pun), I'm not at all confronted by what you or Selena are saying. On the other hand, you guys seem to be quite confronted that I would challenge your house of cards and imply that YOU REALLY DID MISS THe POINT!!! You missed it guys, you really did. And all the talking and explaining that doesn't diminish that fact.
There is a very special thing in the universe called devotion. It is pure and it is wonderful. If it doesn't happen between master and student, then between whom. You and your cat? You and your equal and respectful partner?
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Date: Wed, Feb 11, 1998 at 22:55:42 (EST)
Poster: A premie
Email:
To: Joy
Subject: Re: Why Do People LIKE Devotion?
Message:
I take issue with the way you assume and state that people posting here regarding devotion have never experienced it truly. That most definiteliy could not be said of me. I was well and truly 'in love' with M. for almost ten years, and experienced an absolute devotion and love for him which was like no other I've ever experienced. In short, the experience you refer to. And having come out the other side of that experience, I can definitely second all the things being said here by the 'ex's' regarding devotion and how it is ultimately an escape from 'reality' and of more benefit, particularly financially, to the guru end of the equation. As JW stated, MJ never even spoke to him once. I can say the same, after eight years of ashram and IHQ service. How can that be real devotion, if he doesn't even know who you are (or care)? You are devoted to a FANTASY.
Stay cool Joy. True devotion knows no time limitation. You fell out of love with YOUR fantasy. How true therefore was it? Do you get the point? Devotion doesn't end!!!
Maharaji has spoken to me directly. It was nice but didn't change a thing. What he says to me through Knowledge has always been the true communication. That is what MY love for him is based on. In that forum, he has been a constant safe-harbour in my life.
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Date: Wed, Feb 11, 1998 at 23:03:11 (EST)
Poster: A premie
Email:
To: John K.
Subject: Re: Why Do People LIKE Devotion?
Message:
A couple things, first, M is tapping in to a feeling that is already there, at least in most people it is, namely, devotion or love of GOD, which is a totally positive feeling.
I remember being overwhelmed by a feeling of God's love when I was 12 after being 'Confirmed', a Catholic ritual with the Archbishop (or big chief), probably similar to the bar mitvah in the jewish faith. I had similar experiences going on camping trips, hikes in the woods, etc.
Love of God is love of god whether you feel it for M or Jesus or looking out at the grand canyon.
I think also it's a subtle way of surrenduring personal responsibility for success and failure in what we do.
'It does no matter if I succeed or fail at anything in life - God loves me no matter who I am. I don't have to do anything, or do anything well, I just need to love God!'
The path of Devotion is the perfect escape for under- or non- achievers.
I would not overlook the ego trip involved either, not so much with devotion but with overemphasizing the importance of the teacher. That is, I am devoted to the LIVING LORD, that's I as in ME, yeah he picked ME to reveal himself to. That's how incredible I am! I, being as great as I am, would not bother to follow any teacher who was NOT the superior power in person!
I am DEFINITELY not an under-acheiver John. And I don't give a rats ass whether anyone hears about my little experience in life or not. Maybe that was the way it was with you but it really doesn't apply to me.
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Date: Wed, Feb 11, 1998 at 23:18:24 (EST)
Poster: A premie
Email:
To: Anon
Subject: Re: Why Do People LIKE Devotion?
Message:
Because it feels good. Because the bond of love is the greatest relationship we know as humans. Because the love between master and student is pure. You've clearly missed it the point my skeptical friend.
What point??
You speak very confidently albeit a little too briefly, but please carry on. What is it is exactly about the love between a master and a student that is so pure?
Secondly please explain if you will, the point that you think is being so clearlymissed here.
I don't think that what you said is quite enough of an explanation to clarify the matter if you don't mind me saying.
I don't mind at all Anon.
Maharaji offers something. What is it? It's not meditation. It's not abdication of responsibility for your actions. It's not a set of beliefs and explanations. It's not a religious power trip. What it IS is explained in one word... DEVOTION.
The devotion I am talking about is a bond between two PEOPLE. Within that bond is a relationship that is intimate, and is known by none outside of the two. It is special because it is based upon undying and uncompromising love. In true devotion there is no demand that the bond makes upon the two except to love. And in that one demand a union is made and the two are freed. That is the gift the master gives.
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Date: Thurs, Feb 12, 1998 at 01:40:20 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: A premie
Subject: Re: Why Do People LIKE Devotion?
Message:
The 'devotion' you talk about is clearly NOT the same one as what I talk about.
I venture to say that I've experienced all the usual forms of love that you have Joe - we're really not much different. I've had and have wonderful relationships that were and are built on mutual equality and respect. My read is that devotion tops them all.
Belief has nothing to do with what one feels in their heart. If you say any differently, you belittle the one thing that can be a true guiding vector in our lives. That is because belief can be manipulated - the heart is the only part that cannot be manipulated. My love for Maharaji has nothing to do with belief. It just feels good where it counts. In that respect for me it's sort of like the sunshine.
Well, I can't speak for you and I wouldn't attempt to. But in my experience the "love" I felt for M wasn't love and was entirely built on belief. When I stopped believing in M the "love" I felt vanished. Now that shouldn't have happened if the love wasn't based on belief (really better defined as "faith").
But somehow I can't believe that the "devotion" you feel is anything different that I felt for M, following him for 10 years and doing exactly what he told me to do. I thought that the devotion I felt topped everything too, but it just wasn't true. I think you can't have real love for someone you don't even know. Have you ever even spoken to M? Do you know ANYTHING about him?
And I entirely disagree that what you "feel in the heart" can't be manipulated. That simply isn't true in my experience. It's manipulated all the time. Come on, you certainly know better than that. I know it feels very real, it felt real to me too. And just because it feels good is not proof of anything.
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Date: Thurs, Feb 12, 1998 at 01:59:51 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: A premie
Subject: Re: Why Do People LIKE to bring up the 'heart'? (Re: Why Do People LIKE Devotion?)
Message:
Get it straight Joe (scuze the pun), I'm not at all confronted by what you or Selena are saying. On the other hand, you guys seem to be quite confronted that I would challenge your house of cards and imply that YOU REALLY DID MISS THe POINT!!! You missed it guys, you really did. And all the talking and explaining that doesn't diminish that fact.
There is a very special thing in the universe called devotion. It is pure and it is wonderful. If it doesn't happen between master and student, then between whom. You and your cat? You and your equal and respectful partner?
Yeah, right. The thousands of ex-premies (by the way there are many more es-premies than there are premies) just never really had the experience of devotion, knowledge or M's grace, and hence "missed the point." That's pretty much spritual condescention and egotistical bullshit if you ask me. Where do you get off judging the experiences of thousands of people? How the hell you do know?
I think you will find ex-premies might react to condescending premies implying the THEY have the proper understanding and the ex-premies just missed it, despite the fact that they devoted their entire lives to M for years, practiced knowledge diligently and M was absolutely everything to them, as he was to me. Again, pretty cheeky.
And you have now repeated several times how "pure and wonderful" devotion is, and I used to say the same thing for years, so I guess you can understand why I am not impressed.
And if the ex-premies just "missed the point" what does that say about Maharaji, who was supposedly being the spiritual guide, supplying the grace and being the guru? Not much if he loses 90% of his devotees.
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Date: Thurs, Feb 12, 1998 at 02:19:18 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: A premie
Subject: Re: Why Do People LIKE Devotion?
Message:
Stay cool Joy. True devotion knows no time limitation. You fell out of love with YOUR fantasy. How true therefore was it? Do you get the point? Devotion doesn't end!!!
Maharaji has spoken to me directly. It was nice but didn't change a thing. What he says to me through Knowledge has always been the true communication. That is what MY love for him is based on. In that forum, he has been a constant safe-harbour in my life.
More condescension premie. Not too gracious. If Joy fell out of love with a fantasy that sounds like a good thing to me. And what "point," oh all knowledgeable premie, did Joy miss? Hmmmm? And how would you know?
And perhaps Joy is right and perhaps it's just your fantasy that hasn't yet ended. In that case, Joy is a lot better off that you are.
As far as Maharaji being a "constant safe-harbor" in your life -- how nice for you.
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Date: Sun, Feb 8, 1998 at 20:53:23 (EST)
Poster: John Cavad
Email: johncavad@yahoo.com
To: Everyone
Subject: The Guru Papers
Message:
I recently read this book in its entirity. It has fully answered hundreds of my questions, and helped me understand a myriad of topics surrounding GMJ and his mission. It brought clarity and a fine understanding to what "surrender" is really all about. Thank you (Katie) for recommending this incredible book to me.
It's done more good for me than I can ever express. I can say that about few books, indeed. This ex-premie site has certainly proven highly beneficial to me, to say the least. Thanks.
I also recommend this book to anyone who hasn't read it yet, ex-premies, premies, and especially aspirants. You can order it from any bookstore or order it online from Barnes & Noble or Amazon.
The Guru Papers: Masks of Authoritarian Power
Authors: Joel Kramer,Diana Alstad
Paperback, 385 pages
Published by North Atlantic Books
Publication date: May 1, 1993
ISBN: 1883319005
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Date: Mon, Feb 9, 1998 at 22:21:35 (EST)
Poster: Sir David
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: John Cavad
Subject: Re: The Guru Papers
Message:
The quotes you've given from this book, I have found most impressive. Thank you for once again bringing it to our attention.
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Date: Sun, Feb 8, 1998 at 18:34:22 (EST)
Poster: VP
Email:
To: Everyone
Subject: The Prophet?
Message:
"After a while, people realized that they were so caught up in the teachings of the prophet, that they had forgotten about the promise of feeling good."
Ok,ok...So I took this quote out of context. It is from M and I think that it is ironic. He is telling this story about how understanding and technology have been the prophets of man and how they have led us away from feeling good in this life. Understanding promised us solutions and technology promised us time and yet we still are missing something in our lives. Anyway, at one other point in the story he says something about understanding that ironically also applies to the whole premie experience:
"In time, people decided to be preachers and spread the message to everyone. And so they began to talk to other people, telling them what they would have if they did things differently. People were simple and innocent and, they believed. This was a powerful prophet, not so much because of the solutions it offered, but because of what it promised." I think this directly applies to the experience with GMJ. The prophet becomes more powerful than the experience, more powerful than the person having the experience.
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Date: Sun, Feb 8, 1998 at 18:15:06 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email: heller@islandnet.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Tale of Two Premies
Message:
Last week and then again yesterday I ran into two premies I used to know: the infamous Jack Tuff and Kathy Beeson.
Jack was strolling with his new girlfriend through Chinatown here in Victoria where I live. They joined Laurie and me for lunch. It was funny. I spent some time telling Jack's friend about M; she really didn't know much. She only knows that Jack meditates, he likes it and she likes him. Simple, no?
I explained that for years M claimed to be the Lord, Saviour of Mankind, that he'd cooped us up in minimum security compounds for years, you know. That was all news to her. 'Really, Jack? Did your teacher really claim to be God?' I offered to show them the Lord of the Universe video. Raincheck.
Jack was typically revisionist. He argued that:
1) it's senseless to discuss whether or not M ever claimed to be God because 'God' is such a difficult word to define.
2) My memory of what M might have said or done is flawed or, at least, unproveable.
3) I wasn't that sincere when he knew me in the ashram, hence my defection.
4) I was never a true insider so what the fuck do I know anyway?
I enjoyed posing quotes and various propositions to Jack which left him stymied. His girlfriend warned him to not get so angry at one point. We shook hands and split. Another unsatisfying premie encounter.
Then, yesterday, again with Laurie, I ran into Kathy Beeson. She'd gotten Knowledge in '72 and was an old friend of mine from Vancouver. Wow! What a difference.
For once a premie who didn't quibble over history. Of course M claimed to be God. To anyone the least bit honest who lived through those times that issue's a non-starter. Kathy has never really renounced (let alone DENOUNCED) M but she wasn't about to start lying. Finally, Laurie could hear from someone who was there with me so many years ago -- someone who hasn't even pledged their allegiance to Satan yet -- that the history I describe is accurate. In Kathy I saw some of the simple quest for truth and honesty we sought and encouraged so much back then. In Jack, sad to say, I saw the shameless evasion exemplified so well by OP and other M apologists who post here now and then.
It's a character issue, I guess.
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Date: Sun, Feb 8, 1998 at 14:11:25 (EST)
Poster: Used Panties
Email: F@top
To: Everyone
Subject: For Sale (Extra Large)
Message:
Anybody want to buy a pair of nylon panties? or may give away if going to a good home.
I found them in my laundry and have been using them to keep warm when I go fishing.
Also I have a pair of thigh length leather boots with 4" heels, superb for absaling. (size 9). Mmm, I wonder who these would fit?
My current climbing gear is
1 Pair of nylon knickers
2 Knee length leather boots
3 Pink balacalava
I'm also looking for a climbing partner!
Any takers?
Love and best wishes to you all
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Date: Sun, Feb 8, 1998 at 21:11:59 (EST)
Poster: Anon
Email:
To: F@top.
Subject: Re: For Sale (Extra Large)
Message:
Anybody want to buy a pair of nylon panties? or may give away if going to a good home.
I found them in my laundry and have been using them to keep warm when I go fishing.
Also I have a pair of thigh length leather boots with 4' heels, superb for absaling. (size 9). Mmm, I wonder who these would fit?
My current climbing gear is
1 Pair of nylon knickers
2 Knee length leather boots
3 Pink balacalava
I'm also looking for a climbing partner!
Any takers?
Love and best wishes to you all
I think you took a wrong turning my dear F@hole.
The Lunatic Outward-Bound Association is elsewhere. Regarding your panties. I suggest you advertise them in Loot
Magazine. You can put a free ad in there at this address:
http://www.loot.com/scripts/lootsite.dll?placeadvert
This is a British paper. I assume you are British from the sensible nature of your post.
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Date: Sun, Feb 8, 1998 at 21:15:24 (EST)
Poster: Sir David
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: Used Panties
Subject: Re: For Sale (Extra Large)
Message:
Those extra large nylon panties would look great on Mili together with the thigh length 4" heel leather boots. He'd look a wonderful sight in this apparel as he goes hiking in the Croation mountains. Also Ms Mili would be your ideal climbing partner. The sight of his strong, shapely legs clad in leather and his extra large nylon panties flapping in the wind, would spur you on to ever greater heights...
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Date: Sun, Feb 8, 1998 at 21:18:39 (EST)
Poster: Sir David
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: Used Panties
Subject: Re: For Sale (Extra Large)
Message:
Those extra large nylon panties would look great on Mili together with the thigh length 4" heel leather boots. He'd look a wonderful sight in this apparel as he goes hiking in the Croation mountains. Also Ms Mili would be your ideal climbing partner. The sight of his strong, shapely legs clad in leather and his extra large nylon panties flapping in the wind, would spur you on to ever greater heights...
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Date: Sun, Feb 8, 1998 at 21:22:39 (EST)
Poster: Anon
Email:
To: Sir David
Subject: Re: For Sale (Extra Large)
Message:
Get to bed you waster!It's nearly half two!
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Date: Mon, Feb 9, 1998 at 05:12:33 (EST)
Poster: Fishy
Email: .
To: Sir David
Subject: Re: For Sale (Extra Large)
Message:
I like Milli ..but not that much! Aghhh :-)
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Date: Sun, Feb 8, 1998 at 12:07:27 (EST)
Poster: Sir David
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: Everyone
Subject: Relationships are important
Message:
My understanding of God has been greatly enhanced by people's near death experiences. There experiences blow completely the Hindu trip of detatchment etc.
One man died and went into the light and met God. He said it was the most fantastic Heaven and he wanted to stay there with God forever. God told him that he could stay but if he did, he would miss the love of bringing up his children. There was no pressure from God at all, God just told him that he was most welcome to stay but that would mean he had died from the earth and would live in Heaven. Then he would not be able to bring up his children who were on the earth and he would miss the love within that. The man decided to come back to the earth and so God sent him back and he lived very happily bringing up his children.
That's a million miles away from the Hindu detatchment rubbish.
God is love. He lays down no conditions. He loves us whatever we do and whoever we are. There is no time He ever stops loving us. He never judges us. We judge ourselves, or each other. Soon I will send a post to the Forum and write alot of these NDE experiences which I've gathered which show just how far away from the truth Maharaji's teachings are.
But just to summarise, from the people who've been there and come back, they have said that releationships are very important. They are an integral part of our purpose for being here.
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Date: Sun, Feb 8, 1998 at 12:38:22 (EST)
Poster: StephenB
Email: brunston@tde.com
To: Sir David
Subject: Re: Relationships are important
Message:
I hope you read my post below...concerning realization and meditation. I agree with you. In fact, one of the most important lessons in my life is that interdependance is far more important than independence. I examined my motives in DLM and meditation and find them lacking. Although very defendable on the outside, really, I was "going inside" running away from relationship, family and community. The goal of "realization" is a narcisistic myth.
(by the way myths are good stories and very powerful)
I have come to belive that the search for realization is a dishonest lust for power. Secretly I wanted to gain power over my life, in a world that will never allow that, I longed to be safe and OK in an unsafe world. This moring as i write i think that the ultimate wrong we did to ourselves was to negate our humanness, to bully ourselves in to a state where we had no needs, no wants, and in the end no relatedness.
I am proud today to ask others in my family and my community to help me...I am incedrdibly fullfilled to help and support them.
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Date: Sun, Feb 8, 1998 at 13:29:56 (EST)
Poster: lg
Email:
To: StephenB
Subject: Re: Relationships are important
Message:
I hope you read my post below...concerning realization and meditation. I agree with you. In fact, one of the most important lessons in my life is that interdependance is far more important than independence. I examined my motives in DLM and meditation and find them lacking. Although very defendable on the outside, really, I was 'going inside' running away from relationship, family and community. The goal of 'realization' is a narcisistic myth.
(by the way myths are good stories and very powerful)
I have come to belive that the search for realization is a dishonest lust for power. Secretly I wanted to gain power over my life, in a world that will never allow that, I longed to be safe and OK in an unsafe world. This moring as i write i think that the ultimate wrong we did to ourselves was to negate our humanness, to bully ourselves in to a state where we had no needs, no wants, and in the end no relatedness.
I am proud today to ask others in my family and my community to help me...I am incedrdibly fullfilled to help and support them.
I agree with you here that "the ultimate wrong we did to ourselves was to negate our humanness, to bully ourselves in to a state where we had no needs, no wants, and in the end no relatedness." We were in a state of denial. Very unhealty.
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Date: Sun, Feb 8, 1998 at 11:16:32 (EST)
Poster: Colin's ex-benefactor
Email: sagacious@bigfoot.co
To: Everyone
Subject: where's my money?
Message:
A couple of weeks ago I was watching an Elan Vital Video and spotted one of the members of the congregated assembly who owed me $80. He was sitting there looking blissed out as well he might - sitting there with my $80 in his bank account. The cheek of these devotees after he borrowed it for a flight to some festival or other I never heard from him again. But you better watch out Colin MacDougal, I now know where you were and I can trace you through the premie network. Send me the $80 or expect a call from the Premie Debt Core (P.D.C). I know they usually only collect on behalf of Elan Vital but someone high up owes me a favour. Colin, You have been warned!
I will expect a cheque forthwith,
your brother in devotion,
Bill Baggins
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Date: Sun, Feb 8, 1998 at 15:46:31 (EST)
Poster: Rick
Email: rtaraday@hotmail.com
To: Colin's ex-benefactor
Subject: Re: where's my money?
Message:
A couple of weeks ago I was watching an Elan Vital Video and spotted one of the members of the congregated assembly who owed me $80. He was sitting there looking blissed out as well he might - sitting there with my $80 in his bank account. The cheek of these devotees after he borrowed it for a flight to some festival or other I never heard from him again. But you better watch out Colin MacDougal, I now know where you were and I can trace you through the premie network. Send me the $80 or expect a call from the Premie Debt Core (P.D.C). I know they usually only collect on behalf of Elan Vital but someone high up owes me a favour. Colin, You have been warned!
I will expect a cheque forthwith,
your brother in devotion,
Bill Baggins
I know of a Colin McConnel. You sure the last name's MacDougal?
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Date: Mon, Feb 9, 1998 at 15:29:46 (EST)
Poster: bill
Email:
To: Rick
Subject: Re: where's my money?
Message:
Yes definitely MacDougal. Six foot tall red faced with a big ginger beard. I think he was from Glasgow. If anyone knows him they had better tell him to watch out as wheels are in motion.
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Date: Sun, Feb 8, 1998 at 11:03:56 (EST)
Poster: Barney
Email:
To: Everyone
Subject: Word to the Wise
Message:
Much can be learnt from those who have dedicated their lives to the study of Science. Natural laws are all around us and are constantly being discovered and revised. I am sure there are a few premies who have read some of Professor Denzil Dexter’s theories on the relationship between matter, energy and human perception of reality.
In his recent London lecture he demonstrated that many of today’s formulae were now redundant. For instance Einstien theory of relativity saying that E = mc2 has now been replaced with E = a good night out and the important formula :- Socks + Sandals = Beard. had often been overlooked by the Scientific community.
But for real enlightenment you have to look no further that Jesse’s fashion tips.
Raised by wolves. Jesse believes that the infinite mutability of the human spirit is our surest hope for the future. He has sympathy with many images of individual spiritual growth yet he rejects dogma and exclusionist doctrines. Judgmental by nature he believes that true liberality stems from hard choice
not innocent acceptance. Happiness is a path; Peace must be positively chosen. His favourite fragrances are Cool Water and Eternity by Calvin Klein and Wet Dog by God. And as he recently said at a recent appearance ‘This week I ar bin mostly talking bollocks’ which would actually apply to every week.
Anyway, even though the atmosphere in this Cyber Club is melting into a cool melange of swinging Latin Rhythms lead by the one and only Butch Weeble , Yawoh!!, as the weather is now rather Scorchio I must go down to see to the drainage in the lower field.
Apologies to anyone who has not been to the Apollo or seen the Fast Show but I have been enticed into this English cult and do not want to escape cos it’s brilliant, like a-ma-zing, cool (Brrr!), funky…
What ho ! and Cheerio
from the 13th Duke of Wybourne.
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Date: Mon, Feb 9, 1998 at 15:57:49 (EST)
Poster: Suits You, Sir
Email:
To: Barney
Subject: Re: Word to the Wise
Message:
Swiss Tony says that pracicing knowledge is very much like making love to a beautiful woman.
All I can say is that he must have been verry, veerry, drruunkk..
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Date: Sun, Feb 8, 1998 at 09:29:26 (EST)
Poster: Seymour
Email: seymour_t@rocketmail.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Secret?
Message:
Can any premie (or anyone) tell me why the knowledge techniques are a secret?
Weren't we all told as children not to have such secrets and isn't openess to be preferred - especially in the quest for wisdom and self improvement?
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Date: Sun, Feb 8, 1998 at 10:45:26 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Seymour
Subject: Re: Secret?
Message:
Can any premie (or anyone) tell me why the knowledge techniques are a secret?
Weren't we all told as children not to have such secrets and isn't openess to be preferred - especially in the quest for wisdom and self improvement?
Well, it's pretty predictable what some of the other people who post here will have to say, but my understanding is that the techniques should be practiced discretely to avoid putting the practitioner at a disadvantage because they are 'odd' to our Western society, and also to prevent possible misinterpretation of others attempting to practise them.
They are classical yoga techniques, so its not entirely true that they are completely secret.
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Date: Sun, Feb 8, 1998 at 13:20:19 (EST)
Poster: bftb
Email:
To: Mili
Subject: Re: Secret?
Message:
Although to this day I've never shown/revealed the techniques to another soul;the secrecy thing was very draining.For one thing it created a real separation between myself and those who didn't know the techniques.It stopped me from meditating when in a situation where someone may have been able to see what was done.I knew so many people who meditated using other techniques that they'd gladly and freely show me and I could never to their (or mine)satisfaction explain why K had to be kept secret.
Basically the secrecy aspect created division and stress.
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Date: Sun, Feb 8, 1998 at 14:37:06 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: bftb
Subject: Re: Secret?
Message:
Although to this day I've never shown/revealed the techniques to another soul;the secrecy thing was very draining.For one thing it created a real separation between myself and those who didn't know the techniques.It stopped me from meditating when in a situation where someone may have been able to see what was done.I knew so many people who meditated using other techniques that they'd gladly and freely show me and I could never to their (or mine)satisfaction explain why K had to be kept secret.
Basically the secrecy aspect created division and stress.
I remember that I once solved that problem by giving a curious person a copy of 'Autobiography of a Yogi' by Paramhansa Yogananda, and telling them 'The techniques are described in this book!'
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Date: Sun, Feb 8, 1998 at 15:18:37 (EST)
Poster: bftb
Email:
To: Mili
Subject: Re: Secret?
Message:
Yes,and look at the head games like that that the secrecy makes us play with our own selves.By giving someone that book and saying that the techniques were in there I still would have felt that I'd done something I shouldn't have.
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Date: Sun, Feb 8, 1998 at 17:59:36 (EST)
Poster: VP
Email:
To: Seymour
Subject: Re: Secret?
Message:
Can any premie (or anyone) tell me why the knowledge techniques are a secret?
Weren't we all told as children not to have such secrets and isn't openess to be preferred - especially in the quest for wisdom and self improvement?
What entices people? Secrecy. Do you really think that the program M has going would work as well without this secret ingredient?
In my opinion if K was genuine, M would advertise and shout it from the rooftops.
Katie made a great point in an earlier thread-the secrets really aren't secret and are available from other sources as well. M just doesn't tell you this.
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Date: Sun, Feb 8, 1998 at 18:35:24 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: bftb
Subject: Re: Secret?
Message:
Although to this day I've never shown/revealed the techniques to another soul;the secrecy thing was very draining.For one thing it created a real separation between myself and those who didn't know the techniques.It stopped me from meditating when in a situation where someone may have been able to see what was done.I knew so many people who meditated using other techniques that they'd gladly and freely show me and I could never to their (or mine)satisfaction explain why K had to be kept secret.
Basically the secrecy aspect created division and stress.
I also felt that receiving knowledge created a real separation between me and other people who hadn't received knowledge. But it wasn't so much the secrecy thing for me - it was the fact that people with knowledge supposedly had something extra - were enlightened - etc. I never felt that I could have a close relationship or even a friendship with someone who didn't have knowledge, including people in my own family. It really made me feel different from everyone except other premies. That was the thing that took me the longest to get over after I left. I was thinking about it today - I practiced knowledge for about 5 years and it took me about that long to get over the feeling of being different.
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Date: Sun, Feb 8, 1998 at 18:45:42 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email:
To: VP and Seymour
Subject: Re: Secret?
Message:
Katie made a great point in an earlier thread-the secrets really aren't secret and are available from other sources as well. M just doesn't tell you this.
I think I knew even when I was a premie that the techniques were freely available from other sources. However, I still somehow believed that the combination of the four techniques plus M was different and divine in some way. When I started posting on this site, I still felt a little uneasy about revealing the techniques. What really convinced me that the techniques weren't anything different and/or divine was when Mike Addison described his knowledge session in India in 1974. He was shown NINE techniques (the extra five are breathing techniques that were condensed into "Holy Name", I believe). This made me realize that someone (Maharaji's family, probably) had deliberately packaged the "sacred" four techniques as such, before Maharaji began revealing knowledge in the West- probably eliminating the ones that they thought would be too hard or too weird for Westerners. For some reason, this made me feel OK about breaking my promise not to reveal the techniques - probably because I felt that the whole packaging of certain of the techniques was so bogus in the first place.
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Date: Sun, Feb 8, 1998 at 18:49:08 (EST)
Poster: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net
To: Katie
Subject: Re: Secret?
Message:
Katie made a great point in an earlier thread-the secrets really aren't secret and are available from other sources as well. M just doesn't tell you this.
I think I knew even when I was a premie that the techniques were freely available from other sources. However, I still somehow believed that the combination of the four techniques plus M was different and divine in some way. When I started posting on this site, I still felt a little uneasy about revealing the techniques. What really convinced me that the techniques weren't anything different and/or divine was when Mike Addison described his knowledge session in India in 1974. He was shown NINE techniques (the extra five are breathing techniques that were condensed into 'Holy Name', I believe). This made me realize that someone (Maharaji's family, probably) had deliberately packaged the 'sacred' four techniques as such, before Maharaji began revealing knowledge in the West- probably eliminating the ones that they thought would be too hard or too weird for Westerners. For some reason, this made me feel OK about breaking my promise not to reveal the techniques - probably because I felt that the whole packaging of certain of the techniques was so bogus in the first place.
If you had known what the techniques involved before you received Knowledge, would you have still gone to that Knowledge Session? You gotta keep 'em secret if yer gonna get the suckers in the Tent!
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Date: Sun, Feb 8, 1998 at 19:57:22 (EST)
Poster: Sir David
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: Anyone
Subject: Re: Secret?
Message:
Actually, when I received K from Prakash Bai Ji in 1972 I don't remember ever being told that the techniques were secret and we were never asked to promise not to reveal them.
What Prakash Bai Ji said was that these techniques were to be found in books and were nothing new.
Some time ago I revealed two of the techniques to a friend and got totally blissed out (hate that phrase) in the process. I had been meditating the day before and been doing the nectar so I guess you could call it the grace of the Alpha waves and endorphines that I felt.
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Date: Mon, Feb 9, 1998 at 00:01:59 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: Seymour
Subject: Re: Secret?
Message:
Can any premie (or anyone) tell me why the knowledge techniques are a secret?
Weren't we all told as children not to have such secrets and isn't openess to be preferred - especially in the quest for wisdom and self improvement?
As this thread demonstrates, the techniques are not secret, but some gurus tell you to keep them secret so that people have to go to THEM to get the very same techniques.
At least in the States, the techniques have been revealed on national television a number of times. I know people who saw them on television, but received knowledge nonetheless.
I was asked to promise not to reveal the techniques in my knowledge session prior to receiving knowledge, but then I was also asked to dedicate my entire life to Guru Maharaj Ji prior to receiving knowledge as well. I put all those "promises" in the same category, as requirements made by people who didn't have the right to make them, and which were laid on people who didn't have adequate information to make such a promise. Morevoer, the promise was made under duress, and since M didn't keep his part of the bargain, I don't have to keep mine.
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Date: Mon, Feb 9, 1998 at 15:53:20 (EST)
Poster: seymour
Email: Leper@Hades
To: JW and everyone
Subject: Re: Secret?
Message:
thanks everyone for responding. I am none the wiser as to the benefits of keeping the techniques a secret.
One reason is the fear. I remember being told a story by a mahatma about someone who not only revealed the techniques
but set himself up as a guru. His almost instant karma was to end up in a leper colony. Heavy stuff, man.
I can't believe that we fell for such nonsense - but I remember thinking that I would never be so foolish as to go against the almighty Lord in such a way, which was the purpose of the story - to put the fear of God into us.
By the way what has happened to the knowledge techniques that used to be on this site? There will never be any more virtual premies if they can't learn the fingers in the various places techniques that used to be well illustrated on the Web site? Maybe those responsible have mysteriously got leprosy?
I think we should be told.
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Date: Mon, Feb 9, 1998 at 16:13:18 (EST)
Poster: VP
Email:
To: seymour
Subject: Re: Secret?
Message:
thanks everyone for responding. I am none the wiser as to the benefits of keeping the techniques a secret.
One reason is the fear. I remember being told a story by a mahatma about someone who not only revealed the techniques
but set himself up as a guru. His almost instant karma was to end up in a leper colony. Heavy stuff, man.
I can't believe that we fell for such nonsense - but I remember thinking that I would never be so foolish as to go against the almighty Lord in such a way, which was the purpose of the story - to put the fear of God into us.
By the way what has happened to the knowledge techniques that used to be on this site? There will never be any more virtual premies if they can't learn the fingers in the various places techniques that used to be well illustrated on the Web site? Maybe those responsible have mysteriously got leprosy?
I think we should be told.
Oh, no! I hope Brian isn't listening... Seriously, Seymour, we just had a couple of thread discussions on this. When Brian redesigned this site, he did make some changes. Some of us thought that the part in question should be put back in, but in any event he is apparently hard at work on a new knowledge section of some kind. (I'm sure it's going to be great!) He asked people to write in about their initiation sessions, so you may want to let him know about that.
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Date: Mon, Feb 9, 1998 at 16:15:54 (EST)
Poster: VP
Email:
To: Seymour
Subject: Virtual premies (Re: Secret?)
Message:
P.S. We do need some more virtual premies. I feel like an only child!
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Date: Sun, Feb 8, 1998 at 08:30:10 (EST)
Poster: Luis Sanchez
Email: luissanc@bellsouth.net
To: Everyone
Subject: There is not such thing as realization!
Message:
Realization is when the individual becomes one with god through meditation.
Realization is one of M's utopia goals that I am sure not human being can obtain and it is a myth that it is used not only by M but also by a lot other cults or semi- religions.
I am sure that none of the Mahatmas and M ever or for this matters any human reached this stage.
The only way to become one with God is intellectually.
A lot of premies felt that they had to leave all of the world possessions to reach this last stage.
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Date: Sun, Feb 8, 1998 at 09:37:05 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Luis Sanchez
Subject: Re: There is not such thing as realization!
Message:
Realization is when the individual becomes one with god through meditation.
Realization is one of M's utopia goals that I am sure not human being can obtain and it is a myth that it is used not only by M but also by a lot other cults or semi- religions.
I am sure that none of the Mahatmas and M ever or for this matters any human reached this stage.
The only way to become one with God is intellectually.
A lot of premies felt that they had to leave all of the world possessions to reach this last stage.
Well, on the other hand, there are many statements by people from various cultures and historical eras who said that they DID achieve it. I believe that also Maharaji knows what he is talking about. Here are some quotes (Paul Brunton):
The Meditation state is the "Awareness of Awareness" without the intrusion of any thoughts. It is void of all images. The void is a thought even though thoughts themselves are absent. So your consciousness of the absence of thoughts must be transcended next. So just be still and wait
passively.
The whole key to meditation is to be still mentally, emotionally, and physically.
In the King James version of the Bible, Psalm 46:10 says
"Be still and know that I am God."
Jesus proclaimed that "The Kingdom of Heaven is within
you."
The next stage after that is called Contemplation. It is an advanced state called by the Hindus Nirvikalpa Samadhi or Nirvana. It is "Awareness without an object."
As you approach nearer to a cloistral inward stillness you
approach nearer to the contemplative state. (PB)
You don’t remember anything in the contemplative state but only afterwards will you realize that you were there.
Only afterwards, when looking back at the experience,
dare he say that the experience itself was ineffable..."
(PB 28:2,141)
Emptiness is described as the "Clear Light" by the Dali Lama and other Buddhist monks. You may remember it as paradoxically being absolute darkness and a clear light. But there is one last stage beyond that where your ego
disolves and your consciousness swoons.
Geshe Kelsang Gyatso describes these states in his book "Tantric Grounds and Paths" There are five types of Isolated Mind. The Isolated mind of White appearance, Red increase, Black near-attainment, Clear Light, and That which
is none of these four. (pg 166)
The end, then can only be a merger, a dissolution into Nirvana and a total disappearance of the conscious self.
(PB 26:2,195)
Contemplation is a level of Being also called Reality or Mind by many yogis. It is a non-dual state where there is no subject and no object, no seer and no seen, no observer and no witness. It is the Great Void. It is timeless and spaceless. It is the Unknowable or Great Mystery. It is the plane of neither perception nor non-perception. It is the No-Self.
If this state can be prolonged for about five hours you will become permanently enlightened. (PB volume 15:2:8,185)
Nirvikalpa Samadhi is the condition of the emptied mind,
without any trace of thought, whether of the world or of
the person himself, yet fully aware. (PB volume 15 2:8.101)
There, will be some transitional moments when consciousness
itself disappears...when the meditatior's own awareness of
any kind of being at all lapses...The Indians call it Yoga Nidra. (PB volume 4 1.290)
The goal is Application where you are back in the world (as an enlightened being) having "Awareness plus thoughts." One can chose to have thoughts or not have them at comand or by will. Further more, just as humans evolve from the child, adolescent, to the adult there are those three equal stages to attain as a sage or permanently enlightened being.
These are well documented realms of human experience.
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Date: Sun, Feb 8, 1998 at 11:36:25 (EST)
Poster: surface
Email: fwahv;vh;g
To: Mili
Subject: tension (Re: There is not such thing as realization!)
Message:
these are well documented realms of human experience?
the fantasies of athiests.
after 5 hours you reach permenant god conciousness?
this is a well documented fact?
there is no god you can just attain the 'IT' ?
We should all just assume the 'enlightened ones'
(who go unidentified) are blabbering nonfiction?
there are 3 equal stages to attain?
WE have all practiced the methods and sorry, this 'proof'
doesn't stand up.
The goal is awareness plus thoughts? well I'm happy to
inform you that everyone at this forum has attained
this blissful state.
What buddist is going to tell the truth? Once the mysterious
unreachable fantasy has been proclaimed as the target,
what honest man is going to say the emporer has no clothes?
They doubt that they are smarter than the dogma so
it just goes on and on picking up more stupid
comments as each generation goes by.
The glory of athiesm.
Even maharaji doesn't believe that stuff and he should know.
I don't think there are any buddist asperants here.
You misquoted the line 'the kingdom of heaven is within'
thats a partial quote and it is as out of context as
the other one I had wrong, which was; WITH FAITH all men can
do what I have done. He was talking about his healing
others. NOT that you can become god.
If we are part of the whole, well it is like a drop
of water, and the surface tension is there.
We definately can do anything we like in life but
we cannot remove our surface tension of indiviuality.
God made us separate and you cannot march inside and
change the show and become god. Try all you like,
spend 5 hours and then post the results. Try for nectar.
look at the 'light' for as long as it takes.
Feel your breath! what the heck. But dont believe the
false promises of the athiests. There is no truth there.
To them you are an illusion anyway.
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Date: Sun, Feb 8, 1998 at 12:44:16 (EST)
Poster: Sir David
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: Luis Sanchez
Subject: Re: There is not such thing as realization!
Message:
Very true. Contrary to the Hindu belief that it is only while in human form that we can realise God - we have come into the physical universe in order to appear seperate from God, that we might learn something.
People who've had a near death experience say once out of the physical universe, they are re-united with God in a bliss and love unimaginable. That's for everyone once they've died but such a heaven is not meant to be down here. Meditate all you want, you will never become one with God because it's not meant to happen down here.
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Date: Sun, Feb 8, 1998 at 12:53:29 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Sir David
Subject: Re: There is not such thing as realization!
Message:
Very true. Contrary to the Hindu belief that it is only while in human form that we can realise God - we have come into the physical universe in order to appear seperate from God, that we might learn something.
People who've had a near death experience say once out of the physical universe, they are re-united with God in a bliss and love unimaginable. That's for everyone once they've died but such a heaven is not meant to be down here. Meditate all you want, you will never become one with God because it's not meant to happen down here.
I think we need to clarify our definitions of 'God' here.
Could we agree on the following: God is omnipresent?
If so, he is present in us, too. Why do you think we were not meant to know him, while alive?
I know - 'because we just ain't' - is that it?
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Date: Sun, Feb 8, 1998 at 12:57:53 (EST)
Poster: Anon
Email:
To: surface
Subject: Re: tension (Re: There is not such thing as realization!)
Message:
God made us separate and you cannot march inside and change the show and become god.
That is classic Burke. One of your best yet. I love the idea of arrogantly marching inside! Ha ha !
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Date: Sun, Feb 8, 1998 at 13:01:46 (EST)
Poster: bftb
Email:
To: Mili
Subject: Re: There is not such thing as realization!
Message:
more talk,more theories,....don't you ever get bored with all those silly books filled with inane rhetoric?You're as 'realized' every moment as you will ever need to be.
allow me to paraphrase M here:"you mean somebody achieved nirvana and came back to write about it?Well that guy never reached nirvana because there are no pens there"or something very close.See;even a real live guru knows what a crock 'realization' is.
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Date: Sun, Feb 8, 1998 at 13:05:58 (EST)
Poster: Anon
Email:
To: Mili
Subject: Re: There is not such thing as realization!
Message:
Maharaji had a good go at wiping out my ego when I lived in the Ashram. Boy was it miserable though. That was definately the idea..give up all your desires and become a bliss filled servant of the Lord. Trouble was that it didn't work that way. We just rotted away into miserable and confused vegetables because he didn't know what he was doing really.
He was just experimenting with his meglamaniac beliefs using our lives. Show me one example that he cared a jot for what happened to us Ashram premies when he decided to abandon us.
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Date: Sun, Feb 8, 1998 at 13:15:12 (EST)
Poster: AB
Email:
To: Anon
Subject: Re: tension (Re: There is not such thing as realization!)
Message:
God made us separate and you cannot march inside and change the show and become god.
That is classic Burke. One of your best yet. I love the idea of arrogantly marching inside! Ha ha !
If I recal, God made us different. Not separate. He is not a separatist!!!
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Date: Sun, Feb 8, 1998 at 13:23:58 (EST)
Poster: Sir David
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: Mili
Subject: Re: There is not such thing as realization!
Message:
My understanding is that we come here to be seperate from God in order to more fully appreciate Him and love Him.
Any efforts or attempts we make to get close to God are applauded by Him and only serve to deepen our relationship. I think we can get close to God while on the earth and indeed we are close to God. One could see it like this: in order to appreciate God more, we voluntarily seperate ourselves from Him by coming here in the physical universe. If while appearing seperate from God we learn to see Him in everything, in our relationships, in our lives and in ourselves, then the game of hide and seek is fulfilled. The hardest part is to see God in the suffering. Above all, God is love and I truly believe that love conquers all.
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Date: Sun, Feb 8, 1998 at 13:35:19 (EST)
Poster: bftba
Email:
To: bftb
Subject: Re: There is not such thing as realization!
Message:
more talk,more theories,....don't you ever get bored with all those silly books filled with inane rhetoric?You're as 'realized' every moment as you will ever need to be.
allow me to paraphrase M here:'you mean somebody achieved nirvana and came back to write about it?Well that guy never reached nirvana because there are no pens there'or something very close.See;even a real live guru knows what a crock 'realization' is.
There are no pens their? How can you be so sure? Have been there yourself?
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Date: Sun, Feb 8, 1998 at 13:57:12 (EST)
Poster: bftb
Email:
To: bftba
Subject: Re: There is not such thing as realization!
Message:
allow me to answer in classic guru fashion:
What do you think?Do you think I've been there?How do you know?
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Date: Sun, Feb 8, 1998 at 14:02:25 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: bftb
Subject: Re: There is not such thing as realization!
Message:
allow me to paraphrase M here:'you mean somebody achieved nirvana and came back to write about it?Well that guy never reached nirvana because there are no pens there'or something very close.
This "quote" killed me & I am still laughing. It sounds JUST like Maharaji. Is it really a paraphrase or did you make it up? If you made it up (and your answer below as well) I vote that we nominate you for the next Satguru.
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Date: Sun, Feb 8, 1998 at 14:29:52 (EST)
Poster: Sorry, bb, Sir David,etc...
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: surface
Subject: You asked for it! (Re: There is not such thing as realization!)
Message:
Here's an expression of Divine Union by a Christian mystic.
THE LIVING FLAME OF LOVE by St, John of the Cross
STANZA 1
O living flame of love
that tenderly wounds my soul
in its deepest center! Since
now you are not oppressive,
now consummate! if it be your will:
tear through the veil of this sweet encounter!
Commentary
1. The soul now feels that it is all inflamed in the divine union, its palate is all bathed in glory and love, that in the intimate part of its substance it is flooded with no less than rivers of glory, abounding in delights, and from its depths flow rivers of living water [Jn. 7:38], which the Son of God declared will rise up in such souls. It seems, because it is so forcefully transformed in God, so sublimely possessed by him, and arrayed with such rich gifts and virtues, that it is singularly close to beatitude - so close that only a thin veil separates it.
And the soul sees that every time the delicate flame of love, burning within, assails it, it does so as though glorifying it with gentle and powerful glory. Such is the glory this flame of love imparts that each time it absorbs and attacks, it seems that it is about to give eternal life and tear the veil of mortal life, that very little is lacking, and that because of this lack the soul does not receive eternal glory completely. With ardent desire the soul tells the flame, the Holy Spirit, to tear the veil of mortal life now by that sweet encounter in which he truly communicates entirely what he is seemingly about to give each time he encounters it, that is, complete and perfect glory. And thus it says:
O living flame of love
2. To lay stress on the sentiment and esteem with which it speaks in these four stanzas, the soul uses in all of them the exclamations, "O" and "how," which indicate an affectionate emphasis. Each time they are uttered they reveal more about the interior than the tongue expresses. "O" serves to express intense desire and to use persuasion in petitioning. The soul uses this expression for both reasons in this stanza because it intimates and stresses its tremendous desire, persuading love to loose it.
3. This flame of love is the Spirit of its Bridegroom, who is the Holy Spirit. The soul feels him within itself not only as a fire that has consumed and transformed it but as a fire that burns and flares within it, as I mentioned. And that flame, every time it flares up, bathes the soul in glory and refreshes it with the quality of divine life.
Such is the activity of the Holy Spirit in the soul transformed in love: The interior acts he produces shoot up flames, for they are acts of inflamed love, in which the will of the soul united with that flame, made one with it, loves most sublimely. Thus these acts of love are most precious; one of them is more meritorious and valuable than all the deeds a person may have performed in the whole of life without this transformation, however great they may have been. The same difference lying between a habit and an act lies between the transformation in love and the flame of love. It is like the difference between the wood on fire and the flame leaping up from it, for the flame is the effect of the fire present there.
4. We can compare the soul in its ordinary condition in this state of transformation of love to the log of wood that is ever immersed in fire, and the acts of this soul to the flame that blazes up from the fire of love. The more intense the fire of union, the more vehemently does this fire burst into flames. The acts of the will are united to this flame and ascend, carried away and absorbed in the flame of the Holy Spirit, just as the angel mounted to God in the flame of Manoah's sacrifice [Jgs. 13:20].
Thus in this state the soul cannot make acts because the Holy Spirit makes them all and moves it toward them. As a result all the acts of the soul are divine, since both the movement to these acts and their execution stem from God.
It seems to such persons that every time this flame shoots up, making them love with delight and divine quality, it is giving them eternal life, since it raises them up to the activity of God in God.
5. This is the language and these the words God speaks in souls that are purged, cleansed, and all enkindled; as David
exclaimed: Your word is exceedingly enkindled [Ps. 119:139]; and the prophet: Are not my words, perchance, like a fire?
[Jer. 23:29]. As God himself says through St. John, these words are spirit and life [Jn. 6:63]. These words are perceived by souls who have ears to hear them, those souls, as I say, that are cleansed and enamored. Those who do not have a sound palate, but seek other tastes, cannot taste the spirit and life of God's words; his words, rather, are distasteful to them.
Hence the loftier were the words of the Son of God, the more tasteless they were to the impure, as happened when he
preached the sovereign and loving doctrine of the Holy Eucharist, for many turned away [Jn. 6:60-61, 66].
6. Those who do not relish this language God speaks within them must not think on this account that others do not taste it. St. Peter tasted it in his soul when he said to Christ: Lord, where shall we go? You have the words of eternal life [Jn. 6:68]. And the Samaritan woman forgot the water and the water jar for the sweetness of God's words [Jn. 4:28].
Since this soul is so close to God that it is transformed into a flame of love in which the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are communicated to it, how can it be thought incredible that it enjoy a foretaste of eternal life? Yet it does not enjoy eternal life perfectly since the conditions of this life do not allow it. But the delight that the flaring of the Holy Spirit generates in the soul is so sublime that it makes it know that which savors of eternal life. Thus it refers to this flame as living, not because the flame is not always living but because of this effect; it makes the soul live in God spiritually and experience the life of God in the manner David mentions: My heart and my flesh rejoiced in the living God [Ps. 84:2]. David did not refer to God as living because of a necessity to do so, for God is always living, but in order to manifest that the spirit and the senses, transformed in God, enjoy him in a living way, which is to taste the living God - that is, God's life, eternal life. Nor did David call him the living God other than because he enjoyed him in a living way, although not perfectly, but as though by a glimpse of eternal life. Thus in this flame the soul experiences God so vividly and tastes him with such delight and sweetness that it exclaims:
O living flame of love!
that tenderly wounds my soul
7. That is, that with your ardor tenderly touches me. Since this flame is a flame of divine life, it wounds the soul with the tenderness of God's life, and it wounds and stirs it so deeply as to make it dissolve in love. What the bride affirmed in the Song of Songs is fulfilled in the soul. She was so moved that her soul melted, and so she says: As soon as he spoke my soul melted [Sg. 5:6]. For God's speech is the effect he produces in the soul.
8. But how can one claim that the flame wounds the soul, since there is nothing left in it to wound now that it is all cauterized with the fire of love? It is something splendid that since love is never idle, but in continual motion, it is always emitting flames everywhere like a blazing fire, and since its duty is to wound in order to cause love and delight, and it is present in this soul as a living flame, it dispatches its wounds like most tender flares of delicate love. Joyfully and festively it practices the arts and games of love, as though in the palace of its nuptials, as Ahasuerus did with his bride Esther [Est. 2:16-18]. God shows his graces there, manifests his riches and the glory of his grandeur that in this soul might be fulfilled what he asserted in Proverbs: I was delighted every day, playing before him all the time, playing in the world. And my delights were to be with the children of the earth [Prv. 8:30-31], that is, by bestowing delights on them. Hence these wounds (his games) are flames of tender touches; arising from the fire of love, which is not idle, they suddenly touch the soul. These, it says, occur inwardly and wound the soul.
in its deepest center!
9. This feast takes place in the substance of the soul where neither the center of the senses nor the devil can reach. Therefore, the more interior it is, the more secure, substantial, and delightful, because the more interior it is, the purer it is. And the greater the purity, the more abundantly, frequently, and generously God communicates himself. Thus the delight and joy of the soul is so much more intense because God is the doer of all without the soul's doing anything. Since the soul cannot do any work of its own save through the means and aid of the corporeal senses, from which in this event it is very free and far removed, its sole occupation now is to receive from God, who alone can move the soul and do his work in its depths. Thus all the movements of this soul are divine. Although they belong to it, they belong to it because God works them in it and with it, for it wills and consents to them. Since by saying that the flame wounds in its deepest center the soul indicates that it has other, less profound centers, we ought to explain what is meant by these words.
10. First it should be known that the soul, insofar as it is a spirit, does not possess in its being high and low, deeper or less deep, as do quantitative bodies. Since it has no parts, there is no difference as to inward and outward; it is all one kind and does not have degrees of quantitative depth. It cannot receive greater illumination in one part than in another like physical bodies, but all of it is illumined equally in a degree of greater or lesser intensity, like air that is illumined or not illumined according to degrees.
11. The deepest center of an object we take to signify the farthest point attainable by that object's being and power and force of operation and movement. So fire or a rock have the natural power and motion necessary to reach their center, but they cannot pass beyond it. They can fail to reach and rest in this center if a powerful contrary movement impedes them.
Accordingly, we assert that when a rock is in the ground it is, after a fashion, in its center, even though it is not in its deepest center, for it is within the sphere of its center, activity, and movement; yet we do not assert that it has reached its deepest center, which is the middle of the earth. Thus the rock always possesses the power, strength, and inclination to go deeper and reach the ultimate and deepest center; and this it would do if the hindrance were removed. When once it arrives and no longer has any power or inclination toward further movement, we declare that it is in its deepest center.
12. The soul's center is God. When it has reached God with all the capacity of its being and the strength of its operation and inclination, it will have attained its final and deepest center in God, it will know, love, and enjoy God with all its might. When it has not reached this point (as happens in this mortal life, in which the soul cannot reach God with all its strength, even though in its center - which is God through grace and his self-communication to it), it still has movement and strength for advancing further and is not satisfied. Although it is in its center, it is not yet in its deepest center, for it can go deeper in God.
13. It is noteworthy, then, that love is the inclination, strength, and power for the soul in making its way to God, for love unites it with God. The more degrees of love it has, the more deeply it enters into God and centers itself in him. We can say that there are as many centers in God possible to the soul, each one deeper than the other, as there are degrees of love of God possible to it. A stronger love is a more unitive love, and we can understand in this manner the many mansions the Son of God declared were in his Father's house [Jn. 14:2].
Hence, for the soul to be in its center - which is God, as we have said - it is sufficient for it to possess one degree of love, for by one degree alone it is united with him through grace. Should it have two degrees, it becomes united and concentrated in God in another, deeper center. Should it reach three, it centers itself in a third. But once it has attained the final degree, God's love has arrived at wounding the soul in its ultimate and deepest center, which is to illuminate and transform it in its whole being, power, and strength, and according to its capacity, until it appears to be God.
When light shines on a clean and pure crystal, we find that the more intense the degree of light, the more light the crystal has concentrated within it and the brighter it becomes; it can become so brilliant from the abundance of light received that it seems to be all light. And then the crystal is undistinguishable from the light, since it is illumined according to its full capacity, which is to appear to be light.
14. When the soul asserts that the flame of love wounds it in its deepest center, it means that insofar as this flame reaches its substance, power, and strength, the Holy Spirit assails and wounds it. It does not make such an assertion to indicate that this wounding is as essential and integral as in the beatific vision of the next life. Even though a soul attains to as lofty a state of perfection in this mortal life as that which we are discussing, it neither can nor does reach the perfect state of glory, although perhaps in a passing way God might grant it some similar favor. Yet the soul says this in order to manifest the fullness and abundance of delight and glory it feels in this kind of communication from the Holy Spirit. This delight is so much more intense and tender the stronger and more substantially the soul is transformed and concentrated in God. Since this center is the furthest attainable in the present life - although not as perfectly attainable as in the next - the soul refers to it as the deepest center.
Even though the soul can perhaps possess in this life a habit of charity as perfect as in the next, yet the operation and fruition of charity in this life will not be so perfect, even though the operation and fruition of love increase to such a degree in this state that there is great resemblance to the beatific state. The similarity is such that the soul dares to affirm only what it would dare affirm about the next life, that is: in the deepest center of my soul.
15. Since these rare experiences (which are what we ascribe to the soul in this state) are more remarkable than credible, I do not doubt that some persons, not understanding them through their own knowledge or knowing of them through experience, will either fail to believe them or consider the account an exaggeration; or they will think these experiences less than what they really are.
Yet I reply to all these persons that the Father of lights [Jas. 1:17], who is not closefisted but diffuses himself abundantly as the sun does its rays, without being a respecter of persons [Acts 10:34], wherever there is room - always showing himself gladly along the highways and byways - does not hesitate or consider it of little import to find his delights with the children of the earth at a common table in the world [Prv. 8:31].
It should not be held as incredible in a soul now examined, purged, and tried in the fire of tribulations, trials, and many kinds of temptations, and found faithful in love, that the promise of the Son of God be fulfilled, the promise that the Most Blessed Trinity will come and dwell in anyone who loves him [Jn. 14:23]. The Blessed Trinity inhabits the soul by divinely illumining its intellect with the wisdom of the Son, delighting its will in the Holy Spirit, and absorbing it powerfully and mightily in the unfathomed embrace of the Father's sweetness.
16. If he acts thus in some souls, as it is true he does, it should be believed that this soul we are speaking of will not be left behind in regard to receiving these favors from God. For what we are explaining about the activity of the Holy Spirit within it is something far greater than what occurs in the communication and transformation of love. This latter resembles glowing embers; the former is similar to embers that are not merely glowing but have become so hot that they shoot forth a living flame.
And thus these two kinds of union (union of love alone, and union with an inflaming of love) are somehow comparable to the fire of God which, Isaiah says, is in Zion, and to his furnace which is in Jerusalem [Is. 31:9]. The one signifies the Church Militant, in which the fire of charity is not enkindled to an extreme; the other signifies the vision of peace, which is the Church Triumphant,4 where this fire is like a furnace blazing in the perfection of love. Although, as we said,5 the soul has not attained such great perfection as is present in this vision of peace, yet, in comparison with the other common union, this union resembles a blazing furnace in which there is a vision much more peaceful and glorious and tender, just as the flame is clearer and more resplendent than the burning coal.
17. The soul, feeling that this living flame of love is vividly communicating to it every good, since this divine love carries all things with it, exclaims: "O living flame of love that tenderly wounds my soul." This is like saying: O enkindled love, with your loving movements you are pleasantly glorifying me according to the greater capacity and strength of my soul, bestowing divine knowledge according to all the ability and capacity of my intellect, communicating love according to the greater power of my will, and rejoicing the substance of my soul with the torrent of your delight, your divine contact and substantial union, in harmony with the greater purity of my substance and the capacity and breath of my memory! And this is what happens, in an indescribable way, at the time this flame of love rises up within the soul.
Since the soul is completely purged in its substance and faculties (memory, intellect, and will), the divine substance, which because of its purity touches everywhere profoundly, subtly, and sublimely, as the Wise Man says [Wis. 7:23-24], absorbs the soul in itself with its divine flame. And in that immersion of the soul in wisdom, the Holy Spirit sets in motion the glorious flickerings of his flame. Since the flame is so gentle the soul adds:
Since now you are not oppressive,
18. This means: since you no longer afflict or distress or weary me as you did before. It should be recalled that when the soul was in the state of spiritual purgation, which was at the time of the beginning of contemplation, this flame of God was not so friendly and gentle toward it as now in this state of union. In order to explain this we will have to delay somewhat.
19. Before the divine fire is introduced into the substance of the soul and united with it through perfect and complete purgation and purity, its flame, which is the Holy Spirit, wounds the soul by destroying and consuming the imperfections of its bad habits. And this is the work of the Holy Spirit, in which he disposes it for divine union and transformation in God through love.
The very fire of love that afterward is united with the soul, glorifying it, is what previously assailed it by purging it, just as the fire that penetrates a log of wood is the same that first makes an assault on the wood, wounding it with the flame, drying it out, and stripping it of its unsightly qualities until it is so disposed that it can be penetrated and transformed into the fire.
Spiritual writers call this activity the purgative way. In it a person suffers great deprivation and feels heavy afflictions in the spirit that ordinarily overflow into the senses, for this flame is extremely oppressive.
In this preparatory purgation the flame is not bright for a person but dark. If it does shed some light, the only reason is so the soul may see its miseries and defects. It is not gentle but afflictive. Even though it sometimes imparts the warmth of love, it does so with torment and pain. And it is not delightful, but dry. Although sometimes out of his goodness God accords some delight in order to strengthen and encourage it, the soul suffers for this before and afterward with another trial.
Neither is the flame refreshing and peaceful, but it is consuming and contentious, making a person faint and suffer with self-knowledge. Thus it is not glorious for the soul, but rather makes it feel wretched and distressed in the spiritual light of self-knowledge that it bestows. As Jeremiah declares, God sends fire into its bones and instructs it [Lam. 1:13]; and as David also asserts, he tries it with fire [Ps. 17:3].
20. At this stage persons suffer from sharp trials in the intellect, severe dryness and distress in the will, and from the burdensome knowledge of their own miseries in the memory, for their spiritual eye gives them a very clear picture of themselves. In the substance of the soul they suffer abandonment, supreme poverty, dryness, cold, and sometimes heat. They find relief in nothing, nor does any thought console them, nor can they even raise the heart to God, so oppressed are they by this flame. This purgation resembles what Job said God did to him: You have changed to being cruel toward me [Jb. 30:21].
For when the soul suffers all these things jointly, it truly seems that God has become displeased with it and cruel.
21. A person's sufferings at this time cannot be exaggerated; they are but little less than the sufferings of purgatory. I do not know how to explain the severity of this oppression and the intensity of the suffering felt in it, save by what Jeremiah says of it in these words: I am the man that sees my poverty in the rod of his indignation. He has led me and brought me into darkness and not into light. Only against me he has turned and turned again his hand. He has made my skin and my flesh old, and he has broken my bones. He has surrounded me and compassed me with gall and labor. He has set me in dark places as those who are dead forever. He has built around me that I might not get out. He made my fetters heavy. And besides this when I have cried out and prayed, he has shut out my prayer. He shut up my ways with square rocks and turned my steps and paths
upside down [Lam. 3:1-9]. Jeremiah laments all this and goes on to say much more.
Since in this fashion God mediates and heals the soul of its many infirmities, bringing it to health, it must necessarily suffer from this purge and cure according to its sickness. For here Tobias is placing the heart on the coals to release and drive out every kind of demon [Tb. 6:8]. All the soul's infirmities are brought to light; they are set before its eyes to be felt and healed.
22. Now with the light and heat of the divine fire, it sees and feels those weaknesses and miseries that previously resided within it, hidden and unfelt, just as the dampness of the log of wood was unknown until the fire applied to it made it sweat and smoke and sputter. And this is what the flame does to the imperfect soul.
For (O wonderful thing!) contraries rise up at this time against contraries - those of the soul against those of God that assail it. And as the philosophers say: One contrary when close to the other makes it more manifest. They war within the soul, striving to expel one another in order to reign. That is: The virtues and properties of God, extremely perfect, war against the habits and properties of the soul, extremely imperfect; and the soul suffers these two contraries within itself.
When this flame shines on the soul, since its light is excessively brilliant, it shines within the darknesses of the soul, which are also excessive. Persons then feel their natural and vicious darknesses that are contrary to the supernatural light; and they fail to experience the supernatural light because they do not have it within themselves as they do their darknesses - and the darknesses do not comprehend the light [Jn 1:5]. They feel these darknesses inasmuch as the light shines on them, for it is impossible to perceive one's darknesses without the divine light focusing on them. Once they are driven out a soul is illumined and, being transformed, beholds the light within itself, since its spiritual eye was cleansed and fortified by the divine light. A tremendous light causes total darkness in a weak and impure eye, for if a sensible object is too intense it deprives its relative faculty. And thus this flame was oppressive to the intellectual eye.
23. This flame of itself is extremely loving, and the will of itself is excessively dry and hard. When the flame tenderly and lovingly assails the will, hardness is felt beside the tenderness, and dryness beside the love. The will does not feel the love and tenderness of the flame since, because of its contrary hardness and dryness, it is unprepared for this until the love and tenderness of God expel the dryness and hardness and reign within it. Accordingly, this flame was oppressive to the will, making it feel and suffer its own hardness and dryness.
Because this flame is immense and far-reaching, and the will is narrow and restricted, the will feels its confinement and
narrowness in the measure that the flame attacks it. It feels this until the flame, penetrating within it, enlarges, widens, and makes it capable of receiving the flame itself.
Because this flame is savory and sweet, and the will possesses a spiritual palate disturbed by the humors of inordinate affections, the flame is unpleasant and bitter to it; and the will cannot taste the sweet food of God's love. And in this fashion it feels distress and distastefulness beside so ample and delightful a flame. The will does not experience the savor of the flame because it does not feel this flame within itself; it only feels what it does have within itself - its own misery.
And finally, because this flame contains immense riches and delights and the soul of itself is extraordinarily poor, without any goods or satisfaction, the soul knows and feels clearly beside this goodness and these riches and delights its own misery, poverty, and evil. For evil cannot comprehend goodness, nor poverty riches, and so on, until this flame purifies a soul completely and by this transformation enriches, glorifies, and delights it.
This flame previously oppressed the soul in an indescribable way, since contraries were battling contraries: God, who is all perfect, against all the imperfections of the soul. God does this so, by transforming the soul into himself, he might soften, pacify, and illumine it, as does fire when it penetrates the log of wood.
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Date: Sun, Feb 8, 1998 at 15:12:23 (EST)
Poster: Shri bftb
Email:
To: Katie
Subject: Re: There is not such thing as realization!
Message:
Didn't make it up,it was real real close to what he said.
o.k.-here's the deal.I accept your nomination but I'd like to avoid all the hassles so I'm going to go straight to the heart of the matter and I'll set up a swiss bank account to where my devotees may wire whatever gifts of cash they deem appropriate.I will ask devotees for nothing in return for this opportunity to give that I will present,they may feel free to give as often as they like.In fact there will be no other practice required;just wires.
Through giving they will learn,experience,and grow. Through giving alone.
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Date: Sun, Feb 8, 1998 at 16:41:33 (EST)
Poster: good one
Email: bb
To: Sorry, bb, Sir David,etc...
Subject: Mili (Re: There is not such thing as realization!)
Message:
Hi Mili,
Leave it to you to come up with some new interesting angle.
Here is a few things that come to mind.
Jesus/Yeshua said that you don't attain anything by
your doing but that it is a gift of god.
And you are only required to just believe in god and
you are all set.
The way all the eastern guys make it look is that we can't
just relax and enjoy our life. But we have to attain
some state and no one does. Even if we say that there have
been some that did, look at the vast majority of the
buddists and the monks. THEY don't get anywhere and all
they are left with is guilt and a feeling of despair
because the are getting old and nothing incredible
is happening in the way of some cosmic constant
oneness. They remain a flawed and regular moody person.
Plus, they have given up family and children in the
pursuit of this supposed attainment.
People say christainity is guilt-oriented!
Not true.
It is the groups that say we are supposed to somehow
merge into whatever that leave thier people feeling
guilty and barren.
What hope do all the busy simple people have?
Luckily that is not the case and those millions should
find out the real nature of life.
Why do I have to jump through hoops when the god says
all I have to do is just love everybody and if I just
say ok, god you exist, I can just enjoy the moments of my
life and I dont need to feel that if I don't attain this
great state of being that I have wasted my life and I
will have to go around the wheel again to try to get it
right.
What is more incredible a state of being that standing
here in a body and having time to do things and enjoy?
What is more fantastic than having equally flawed
and equally incredible other people to have so many
different experiences with?
What is so fantastic that I should consider this
amazing life mundane and boring or 'empty' and try for
something else that is so impossible to get?
If the regular folks can't easily access it then it isn't
important for us.
The design is complete as it is.
The sexless, familyless, lifeless, trapped monks make up
these stories in thier frantic pursuit of nothing.
It is a ego trip.
It is an insult to the god that spent 18 billion years
so that we could thumb our noses at it and looking for
something-ANYTHING else.
It is amazing that half the planet is trapped in this.
The breath is right there to feel.
The holy spirit so-called by your post example.
We can't settle down on the breath and just love our life.
Our duties are no more than this.
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Date: Sun, Feb 8, 1998 at 18:31:04 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email:
To: Shri bftb
Subject: To Shri bftb (Re: There is not such thing as realization!)
Message:
Didn't make it up,it was real real close to what he said.
o.k.-here's the deal.I accept your nomination but I'd like to avoid all the hassles so I'm going to go straight to the heart of the matter and I'll set up a swiss bank account to where my devotees may wire whatever gifts of cash they deem appropriate.I will ask devotees for nothing in return for this opportunity to give that I will present,they may feel free to give as often as they like.In fact there will be no other practice required;just wires.
Through giving they will learn,experience,and grow. Through giving alone.
Dear Shri bftb,
Not only do you have the lingo down pat, you also have the correct spirit. You're either the right guy or else you've been watching too many videos.
P.S. One more (serious) question, should you choose to answer it. If b stands for beginning, then when was the beginning?
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Date: Sun, Feb 8, 1998 at 18:47:38 (EST)
Poster: bftb
Email:
To: Katie
Subject: Re: To Shri bftb (Re: There is not such thing as realization!)
Message:
I think it was a year and a half or so ago.
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Date: Sun, Feb 8, 1998 at 19:00:32 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email:
To: bftb
Subject: Re: To Shri bftb (Re: There is not such thing as realization!)
Message:
So you mean the REAL beginning, when it was just Jim and alt.support.ex-cult? (How could you stand not to say anything for so long?)
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Date: Sun, Feb 8, 1998 at 19:39:35 (EST)
Poster: Sir David
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: good one
Subject: Re: Mili (Re: There is not such thing as realization!)
Message:
You do realise Bill that I'm archiving many of your posts because they are so much of what I myself feel that it's could to see confirmation.
I find God in laughter with my children, in forgiving someone a slight or injury, in being forgiven myself.
___I find God in brightening someones day, in helping a dear friend and in making someone happy. My God is here, he's not far away in some unattainable place. He is here whether I meditate or not. Through the trials of my life, I see Him. In the joys of my life, he is there. He is always there for everyone.
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Date: Sun, Feb 8, 1998 at 21:52:33 (EST)
Poster: shri bftb
Email:
To: Katie
Subject: Re: To Shri bftb (Re: There is not such thing as realization!)
Message:
using perfect patience
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Date: Mon, Feb 9, 1998 at 13:34:04 (EST)
Poster: John K.
Email:
To: shri bftb
Subject: Re: To Shri bftb (Re: There is not such thing as realization!)
Message:
Eureka! So that's what you mean by "bystander from the beginning"!
I had no idea that you meant from the beginning of the web site.
I thought you were, you know, kind of strange, like you know, from the beginning of your life you had just been a bystander.
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Date: Mon, Feb 9, 1998 at 15:57:13 (EST)
Poster: Sir David
Email: bb
To: Sir David
Subject: Duke of Earl (Re: There is not such thing as realization!)
Message:
I'm taking you up on that.
So I started today with the post up top.
When maharaji was god he really limited things, he kind of
stifled any wider view. He can't play the role he tries
to, hundu guru's are driven insane by thier role playing.
How do YOU talk to the power? casual? or more like my
christain friends that go 'dear heavenly father'?
If the power/friend/god is so privy to the details
of my life, (without my permission I might add)
then I hardly think any special aloof sounding greetings
are required. I have to come up with a name for it.
Or maybe I will use some of the old ones comically.
Like (resectfully) 'good morning mr SUPREME ALMIGHTY'.
I mean I am definately going to play the chum angle.
And relate as a freind that will speak up and talk
straight back.
Expessially since the freind/god is fine with the way
humans tell thier kids about religion all over the world,
and the fights that confusion has caused.
But I will certainly also have a variety of approaches.
This will be interesting.
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Date: Mon, Feb 9, 1998 at 20:10:08 (EST)
Poster: Sir David
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: Bill
Subject: Re: Duke of Earl (Re: There is not such thing as realization!)
Message:
I guess I'm aware that He knows what I'm thinking and doing all the time so I just talk to Him in my head. Like well thanks for showing me that or I feel a lot better about things now or why oh why did this happen God?
I am always asking Him for help and I sought the most help from Him when I finally realised that He wasn't Maharaji. I had a sense of real freedom then, after the initial pain. So I don't have to do all of THAT then God, wow, thanks for showing me and thanks for loving me. One of the most remarkable things he has shown me is that the whole of the Hindu religion and it's teachings are totally false.
They are so far off the mark and I've thanked Him over and over for showing me that. Now I can meditate without any fear or hassle. If I don't meditate, it's not a problem either. He doesn't judge me at all.
Maharaji talks a load of crap. Because Hinduism is crap. We are growing eternally as God's children and He is also growing eternally as our Father. He loves us more than we realise. He holds us closer than we realise. He knows we love the people in our lives and it's supposed to be that way. He is all love. Where love is, He is there. We don't have to do this Hindu merging trip because we are already merged with Him and always will be. As He grows so will we. He will always be our loving Father and will always hold us deep within His love. He had got us to love and that will last forever. We will grow in love with Him and He with us. It is an eternal love story.
My six year old daughter, Jasmine told me that Jesus and Mary and Joseph were special around Christmas time. I told her that we're all special because God loves us all and made us so He could love us. Like me and her mummy made her so we could love her. She understands this. That is the essence of it all.
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Date: Sat, Feb 7, 1998 at 12:07:12 (EST)
Poster: Rick
Email: rtaraday@hotmail.com
To: JW and everyone
Subject: maharaji and current events
Message:
I don't think it was so much that maharaji didn't understand current events. I think his explanation was that no matter what happened in the world, happiness wouldn't be found there. The only place happiness could be found, according to him, was beyond the five senses in the experience of knowledge. And that the world of the five senses, where world events occurred, was a stage for the duality of pleasure and pain. He did used to mock the "players" in world events as being confused that any action or worldly solution would have any real effect. His explanation about oil was essentially that it was limited and so its pleasure couldn't be relied on. I don't know if he was doing any more than speculating about the dinosaurs, or reiterating someone's opinion and using it to make his point. His view on pleasure, pain, and spiritual experience beyond the five senses, really isn't unique. It's common in Eastern religion and philosophy. Personally, I think it's all wrong and I take exception with any potrayal of that reality. My real gripe with maharaji is his cult and the perpetration of abuse on premies through premies. He created a haven for dysfunction and kept people by using vague innuendos and abusing whatever charisma he has.
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Date: Sat, Feb 7, 1998 at 12:49:21 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: Rick
Subject: Re: maharaji and current events
Message:
I don't think it was so much that maharaji didn't understand current events. I think his explanation was that no matter what happened in the world, happiness wouldn't be found there. The only place happiness could be found, according to him, was beyond the five senses in the experience of knowledge. And that the world of the five senses, where world events occurred, was a stage for the duality of pleasure and pain. He did used to mock the 'players' in world events as being confused that any action or worldly solution would have any real effect. His explanation about oil was essentially that it was limited and so its pleasure couldn't be relied on. I don't know if he was doing any more than speculating about the dinosaurs, or reiterating someone's opinion and using it to make his point. His view on pleasure, pain, and spiritual experience beyond the five senses, really isn't unique. It's common in Eastern religion and philosophy. Personally, I think it's all wrong and I take exception with any potrayal of that reality. My real gripe with maharaji is his cult and the perpetration of abuse on premies through premies. He created a haven for dysfunction and kept people by using vague innuendos and abusing whatever charisma he has.
I think we are saying the same thing, Rick. When Maharaji approached world events that happened to real people, he used the most simplistic explanation, which was often just plain wrong, because I think he partly didn't understand what he was talking about, and partly because if he didn't understand things, he just dismissed them as some kind of irrelevent actions going on in "the world."
As you say, I think he partly mocked the world "players" because he didn't understand the complexity of what was going on. He rarely ever talked about what was going on in the world, except in the most dismissive of ways.
He only went through the ninth grade, and I doubt anyone around him ever told him that his analysis of things might just be a tad shallow. I also know he watched tons of television, which would give you a pretty distorted view of things.
Accordingly, he said some dumb stuff about real events, and I don't think he understood how real people live and never really tried to find out. He never really even tried to find out how premies live, even ashram premies.
He lives such an insulated life that I'm not surprised he had some screwed up ideas. Like, for example, that oil came from dinosaurs. Any sixth grader knows that's not true.
I also recall that Maharaji was afraid to go to Chicago for years because he thought it was still full of gangsters like Al Capone. Hence, he hardly ever went there. I heard PAM chuckle about that, but there were the sort of things M reacted to, stuff he saw on TV. I can recall him saying Chicago was a place especially filled with "mind," when in reality it wasn't any different than any other bit U.S. city. Now, I hope he has since learned that Chicago isn't still full of gangsters, but I think it illustrates how out of touch he really was.
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Date: Sat, Feb 7, 1998 at 13:57:51 (EST)
Poster: Rick
Email: rtaraday@hotmail.com
To: JW and everyone
Subject: Re: maharaji and current events
Message:
Did you ever see the film where maharaji is getting some award or medal from Congress? The congressman who nominated him invited him in front of Congress. Maharaji gave one of his usual vague speeches, took the medal, shook the congressman's hand and walked off stage. I think it was '75 or '76. Premies were smitten; the satguru was official now.
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Date: Sat, Feb 7, 1998 at 14:24:51 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email: joger02@aol.com
To: Rick
Subject: Re: maharaji and current events
Message:
Did you ever see the film where maharaji is getting some award or medal from Congress? The congressman who nominated him invited him in front of Congress. Maharaji gave one of his usual vague speeches, took the medal, shook the congressman's hand and walked off stage. I think it was '75 or '76. Premies were smitten; the satguru was official now.
I don't think M ever got anything from congress. I think you may be thinking of some city council or something; I think that's about as far as he ever got. I recall he got the keys to the city of Detroit in about 1973, but of course he also got hit in the face with a pie there, I think the same or the next day.
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Date: Sat, Feb 7, 1998 at 15:12:24 (EST)
Poster: Rick
Email: rtaraday@hotmail.com
To: JW
Subject: Re: maharaji and current events
Message:
Did you ever see the film where maharaji is getting some award or medal from Congress? The congressman who nominated him invited him in front of Congress. Maharaji gave one of his usual vague speeches, took the medal, shook the congressman's hand and walked off stage. I think it was '75 or '76. Premies were smitten; the satguru was official now.
I don't think M ever got anything from congress. I think you may be thinking of some city council or something; I think that's about as far as he ever got. I recall he got the keys to the city of Detroit in about 1973, but of course he also got hit in the face with a pie there, I think the same or the next day.
The pie was great. I had the idiocy to have read the Penthouse article of maharaji in '74 and still signed on in '76. Bill Gates just got pie'd this week; he and m may be cut from the same cloth. But I do distinctly remember it was Congress (I think the House of Representatives) who gave the award to maharaji). The congressman who nominated him was impressed because a young woman he had contact with, completely turned her life around after joining the cult. Anyone?
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Date: Sun, Feb 8, 1998 at 06:27:00 (EST)
Poster: Seymour
Email: Mind@Chicago
To: Rick
Subject: Re: maharaji and current events
Message:
Well said Rick and JW I agree that
"His view on
pleasure, pain, and spiritual experience beyond the five senses, really isn't
unique. It's common in Eastern religion and philosophy. Personally, I think it's
all wrong and I take exception with any potrayal of that reality."
It takes a tremendous amount of confidence to ask people to change their lives to fit in with your perspective. I wonder if G.M. ever thinks he could be wrong? 'Leave no room for doubt' becomes an essential ingredient in the life of a
Guru - if you did you might start feeling a little remorse for all the people you gave the wrong directions to.
I remember M talking about Chicago and it shows how much I looked up to him when I recall, to my shame, telling some friend who was going to America to avoid Chicago as it was a one of the worst places in the States. I had never been there but hearing there was 'a lot of mind there'from G.M. was enough to allow me to communicate hearsay as fact.
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Date: Sun, Feb 8, 1998 at 07:18:49 (EST)
Poster: right
Email: bb
To: JW
Subject: rick (Re: maharaji and current events)
Message:
He spoke at an event that rabbi bernie korsch put on.
remember him from watergate and nixon era?
maharij gave the opening prayer and bob mishler said it
was written by bob and the staff at IHQ.
I have the report.
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Date: Sun, Feb 8, 1998 at 13:59:11 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Seymour
Subject: Re: maharaji and current events
Message:
I remember M talking about Chicago and it shows how much I looked up to him when I recall, to my shame, telling some friend who was going to America to avoid Chicago as it was a one of the worst places in the States. I had never been there but hearing there was 'a lot of mind there'from G.M. was enough to allow me to communicate hearsay as fact.
Thanks for telling the "Chicago" story on yourself, Seymour, as it really made me laugh. I hope that you'll dare to visit Chicago if you ever come to the U.S. They have one of the country's best art museums there, among other things.
My story about Maharaji getting all his information about the world from television may be incomprehensible to you British guys, but here it is (it're really just meant to be funny). In the mid-seventies Maharaji was holding a question and answer session and asked one of the premies there where they were from. The premie replied "Philadelphia". Whereupon Maharaji said, seriously: "Philadelphia! They make good cheese there!"
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Date: Sun, Feb 8, 1998 at 19:04:12 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: Rick
Subject: Re: maharaji and current events
Message:
The pie was great. I had the idiocy to have read the Penthouse article of maharaji in '74 and still signed on in '76. Bill Gates just got pie'd this week; he and m may be cut from the same cloth. But I do distinctly remember it was Congress (I think the House of Representatives) who gave the award to maharaji). The congressman who nominated him was impressed because a young woman he had contact with, completely turned her life around after joining the cult. Anyone?
I certainly don't recall that, and I think that's something I would remember, because if it had happened, I'm sure I would have been blathering it to non-premies, and especially "interested people" because I would think it would give him some legitimacy.
Maybe he got something from a single congressman, but not the whole congress. That's quite possible. Congressmen give out those meaningless congratulation notices to almost anyone to asks.
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Date: Sun, Feb 8, 1998 at 19:09:08 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: Seymour
Subject: Re: maharaji and current events
Message:
Well said Rick and JW I agree that
'His view on
pleasure, pain, and spiritual experience beyond the five senses, really isn't
unique. It's common in Eastern religion and philosophy. Personally, I think it's
all wrong and I take exception with any potrayal of that reality.'
It takes a tremendous amount of confidence to ask people to change their lives to fit in with your perspective. I wonder if G.M. ever thinks he could be wrong? 'Leave no room for doubt' becomes an essential ingredient in the life of a
Guru - if you did you might start feeling a little remorse for all the people you gave the wrong directions to.
I remember M talking about Chicago and it shows how much I looked up to him when I recall, to my shame, telling some friend who was going to America to avoid Chicago as it was a one of the worst places in the States. I had never been there but hearing there was 'a lot of mind there'from G.M. was enough to allow me to communicate hearsay as fact.
Actually, I remembered the Chicago comments because I was living in Chicago (in the ashram) at the time. Chicago is really a great city. Beautiful architecture, museums (the Art Institute has the largest collection of Impressionistic art in the world), the best symphony in the world, and great jazz, comedy and food. (Chicago pizza is a notable example). It also has its problems like most big cities in the U.S., but Maharaji was just reacting to TV or movies he had seen in making his pronouncements. He was, and still is in my opinion, very out of touch with the real world.
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Date: Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 01:31:16 (EST)
Poster: CD
Email:
To: Rick
Subject: Re: maharaji and current events
Message:
I believe he gave the talk at a US bi-centenial affair before a joint session of congress.
He did recieve quite a few more awards than just the one in Detroit.
He got an award from the mayor of L.A.
Of course JW knows all the facts or he will get them in order soon.
CD
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Date: Tues, Feb 10, 1998 at 22:12:38 (EST)
Poster: VP
Email:
To: Rick
Subject: Award Video (Re: maharaji and current events)
Message:
Did you ever see the film where maharaji is getting some award or medal from Congress? The congressman who nominated him invited him in front of Congress. Maharaji gave one of his usual vague speeches, took the medal, shook the congressman's hand and walked off stage. I think it was '75 or '76. Premies were smitten; the satguru was official now.
Rick,
Yes! I saw this, but I was very young and can't remember who gave it to him. It definately was a congressman. I recall that the premies watching with me were so excited that "M is accepted by the U.S. government now!" The congressman gushed about how M was attempting to bring peace to society or something close to this. After the video was over, we were told that the congressman was a premie, but of course that is heresay. I don't remember him standing in front of Congress. I just remember that he was at a podium on a stage and I think that it was outside and there was a crowd of people watching.
Also, I think that I saw him get the key to a city in a video. I'm not sure which city it was. VP
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Date: Sat, Feb 7, 1998 at 10:08:51 (EST)
Poster: Dawn
Email:
To: Everyone
Subject: Negativity
Message:
I am about to ask Maharaji for knowledge but was not sure so I came here to find out more. After reading for a while I reckon ex premies are the most negative types I have come across and think this knowledge has got to be a better option than being bitter like some of you lot.
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Date: Sat, Feb 7, 1998 at 10:46:09 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Dawn
Subject: Re: Negativity
Message:
I am about to ask Maharaji for knowledge but was not sure so I came here to find out more. After reading for a while I reckon ex premies are the most negative types I have come across and think this knowledge has got to be a better option than being bitter like some of you lot.
You might consider the fact that all the ex-premies here HAVE received knowledge. If then, as you say, we are all negative and bitter, then you may want to read further before deciding to receive knowledge. And you might want to consider the fact that there ARE other options besides receiving knowledge from Maharaji.
I don't agree with you about ex-premies being "the most negative types" one can come across. If they were, they wouldn't have received knowledge in the first place. Some ex-premies are bitter, that's true, but a lot of that is because they feel hurt and deceived.
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Date: Sat, Feb 7, 1998 at 10:48:34 (EST)
Poster: Sir David
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: Dawn
Subject: Re: Negativity
Message:
Why were you not sure about whether to ask Maharaji for knowledge or not? What doubts or reservations did you have?
What is it about the knowledge that makes you hesitate? If you had doubts before you saw this site then I am wondering how those doubts came about.
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Date: Sat, Feb 7, 1998 at 12:06:33 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: Dawn
Subject: Re: Negativity
Message:
I am about to ask Maharaji for knowledge but was not sure so I came here to find out more. After reading for a while I reckon ex premies are the most negative types I have come across and think this knowledge has got to be a better option than being bitter like some of you lot.
Dawn, you have to do whatever you feel is right for you, but I think you should consider that the majority of the people who have received knowledge no longer practice it, and there are a large number of ex-premies who have valid reasons why they believe Maharaji is either dishonest about how he portrays himself, or is playing a game with people's lives to finance his lavish lifestyle.
Also, the choices are not receiving knowledge versus being a "negative" ex-premie. If you don't receive knowledge and get involved in the premie world, you don't have to worry about becoming an "ex" anything. Just try to be objective, take a step back, and look carefully at what you are doing.
Also, be careful of that word "negative." It's used in the premie world to scare people into not thinking for themselves. There is a big difference between using your own better judgment/critical thinking and being "negative." Unfortunately, in the premie world they are equated.
Good luck on your decision. Whatever you do, at least you know this site is here.
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Date: Sat, Feb 7, 1998 at 14:32:23 (EST)
Poster: bftb
Email:
To: Katie
Subject: Re: Negativity
Message:
Now he's really giggling.This one was well done but I'm quite sure it was not real and designed simply to push buttons.
Good positive answers from all you negative types though.
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Date: Sat, Feb 7, 1998 at 15:12:32 (EST)
Poster: Brian
Email:
To: bftb
Subject: Naw, it wasn't Mili (Re: Negativity)
Message:
Now he's really giggling.This one was well done but I'm quite sure it was not real and designed simply to push buttons.
Good positive answers from all you negative types though.
Nice guess though, and I had to check to be sure. There is something about the aspirant process that just brings out the Mili in everyone - even the Dawns.
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Date: Sat, Feb 7, 1998 at 15:32:50 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email:
To: bftb
Subject: Re: Negativity
Message:
Hey bftb,
My answer to this one was not as sympathetic as it might have been, b/c (for some reason) the "you lot" made me suspicious. Also, most of the negative posting lately has been by premies, not ex-premies. But you never know who reads these postings. Anyway, if Dawn is NOT real (and please forgive me, Dawn, if you are), then there may be someone out there reading our answers who is in the same circumstance as Dawn is.
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Date: Sat, Feb 7, 1998 at 16:01:08 (EST)
Poster: StephenB
Email: brusnton@tde.com
To: Dawn
Subject: TO: Dawn (Re: Negativity)
Message:
No one here will stop you Dawn,, go for it. You do have to make all the choices in your life, even if one of those choices is to give up on choices. Just remember later that there is life after M and DLM, there are others who will love you after your expeience. Go with God and learn what you must.
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Date: Sun, Feb 8, 1998 at 05:29:24 (EST)
Poster: Anon
Email:
To: Dawn-the-sensible
Subject: Re: Negativity
Message:
I am about to ask Maharaji for knowledge but was not sure so I came here to find out more. After reading for a while I reckon ex premies are the most negative types I have come across and think this knowledge has got to be a better option than being bitter like some of you lot.
I am about to ask my local car dealer for a 'Skoda' but was not sure so I came here to find out more. After reading for a while I reckon that Skoda owners of are the most negative types I have come across and think this Skoda has got to be a better option than being bitter like some of you lot. I am going to rush out and buy one!
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Date: Sun, Feb 8, 1998 at 06:04:35 (EST)
Poster: Flange bolt
Email: Barney's Garage
To: Anon
Subject: Re: Negativity
Message:
Good for you Anon. Listening to ex-Skoda owners will never give you the true Skoda experience. These negative anti-Skoda folks are always so miserable moaning about unreliablity and wasted money whearas us Skoda salespeople are always happy with our lives.
Remember that the only way you can really know the joy and bliss of cruising with the Skoda gang is to get one a.s.a.p.
and don't listen to all that horrible negativity.
See you on the open road ( probably at the side )
Prem Sat Skoda.
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Date: Sun, Feb 8, 1998 at 08:48:20 (EST)
Poster: VP
Email:
To: Dawn
Subject: Choices (Re: Negativity)
Message:
I am about to ask Maharaji for knowledge but was not sure so I came here to find out more. After reading for a while I reckon ex premies are the most negative types I have come across and think this knowledge has got to be a better option than being bitter like some of you lot.
Dear Dawn,
I came here searching, too. I don't know how long you have been reading this forum, but I suggest that you read the Archives for more information if this is what you seek.
Please keep in mind that each person posting here is an individual. Some are negative and some are not--just like some of the premies or any other group of people I've met. If you look t people's experiences with a loving heart, you can understand their pain.
Only your mind and heart can tell you what is right for you--not anyone else. Make your own decisions in your life. I will give you one hint. You have more than just the two options you stated above: 1) receive knowledge or 2) be bitter. Life is full of choices! Best of luck to you. In peace, VP
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Date: Sun, Feb 8, 1998 at 09:56:10 (EST)
Poster: Anon
Email:
To: Anon
Subject: Re: Negativity
Message:
I am about to ask Maharaji for knowledge but was not sure so I came here to find out more. After reading for a while I reckon ex premies are the most negative types I have come across and think this knowledge has got to be a better option than being bitter like some of you lot.
I am about to ask my local car dealer for a 'Skoda' but was not sure so I came here to find out more. After reading for a while I reckon that Skoda owners of are the most negative types I have come across and think this Skoda has got to be a better option than being bitter like some of you lot. I am going to rush out and buy one!
...And when your Skoda will break down, or get angry at the dealer for having sold you, perhaps a lemon, you'l come back and cry. And we'll be here for you.
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Date: Sun, Feb 8, 1998 at 12:24:20 (EST)
Poster: StephenB
Email:
To: Flange bolt & Anon
Subject: SKODAS! (Re: Negativity)
Message:
Laughing my butt off!
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Date: Sun, Feb 8, 1998 at 18:46:40 (EST)
Poster: Mickey the Skoda
Email: SKODATOWN, U.S.A.
To: Flange bolt
Subject: Re: Negativity
Message:
Good for you Anon. Listening to ex-Skoda owners will never give you the true Skoda experience. These negative anti-Skoda folks are always so miserable moaning about unreliablity and wasted money whearas us Skoda salespeople are always happy with our lives.
Remember that the only way you can really know the joy and bliss of cruising with the Skoda gang is to get one a.s.a.p.
and don't listen to all that horrible negativity.
See you on the open road ( probably at the side )
Prem Sat Skoda.
I used to get angry at everything, but since I got my Skoda,
I am full of love and everything is beautiful. I get very little sleep, I work for nothing, and my diet consists entirely of overcooked vegetables and Baskin-Robbins ice cream, but I have traveled all over the planet and seen the inside of arenas and stadiums everywhere; I've never seen any of the sights in the major cities of the world, but I can describe the inside of any stadium in the Free World! Thank You, Maharajiski, for your Grace and my Skoda!
Bolie Shri Sat Guru Dev Skoda Ki Jai!
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