Ex-Premie.Org

Forum II Archive # 8

From: Feb 28, 1998

To: Mar 7, 1998

Page: 4 Of: 5


Sir David -:- Bal Bhagwan Ji's address -:- Tues, Mar 3, 1998 at 20:50:56 (EST)
___Jim -:- Re: Bal Bhagwan Ji's address -:- Tues, Mar 3, 1998 at 21:00:00 (EST)
___Jim -:- Yep -- same one -:- Tues, Mar 3, 1998 at 22:47:35 (EST)
___Joy -:- Re: Yep -- same one -:- Tues, Mar 3, 1998 at 23:02:06 (EST)
___Volume one of the great -:- MillRennieum -:- Wed, Mar 4, 1998 at 00:03:39 (EST)
___Scott T. -:- Re: MillRennieum -:- Wed, Mar 4, 1998 at 00:52:25 (EST)
___prince william -:- MillyRennieum -:- Wed, Mar 4, 1998 at 02:38:40 (EST)
___Jim -:- But doesn't it irk you a bit? -:- Wed, Mar 4, 1998 at 11:15:14 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: But doesn't it irk you a bit? -:- Wed, Mar 4, 1998 at 13:25:48 (EST)
___chr -:- Re: But doesn't it irk you a bit? -:- Wed, Mar 4, 1998 at 15:06:29 (EST)
___My letter to the Hindu Times -:- Re: Bal Bhagwan Ji's address -:- Wed, Mar 4, 1998 at 22:00:45 (EST)
___alien X -:- Re: Bal Bhagwan Ji's address -:- Wed, Mar 4, 1998 at 23:20:45 (EST)
___Jim -:- Re: Bal Bhagwan Ji's address -:- Thurs, Mar 5, 1998 at 12:02:54 (EST)

larkin -:- well if m can spout bad poetry... -:- Tues, Mar 3, 1998 at 20:07:07 (EST)
___Sir David -:- Re: well if m can spout bad poetry... -:- Tues, Mar 3, 1998 at 21:03:36 (EST)
___will -:- Re: well if m can spout bad poetry... -:- Wed, Mar 4, 1998 at 00:10:59 (EST)
___Nick -:- Re: well if m can spout bad poetry... -:- Wed, Mar 4, 1998 at 15:15:31 (EST)

Jim -:- Tracking down Bal Bhagwan Ji -:- Mon, Mar 2, 1998 at 20:51:22 (EST)
___John K. -:- Re: Tracking down Bal Bhagwan Ji -:- Tues, Mar 3, 1998 at 12:17:13 (EST)
___Sir David -:- Re: Tracking down Bal Bhagwan Ji -:- Tues, Mar 3, 1998 at 13:14:23 (EST)
___Mr Ex -:- Re: Tracking down Bal Bhagwan Ji -:- Tues, Mar 3, 1998 at 15:54:59 (EST)
___Eldest head of the -:- holy hydra -:- Tues, Mar 3, 1998 at 15:57:14 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: Tracking down Bal Bhagwan Ji -:- Tues, Mar 3, 1998 at 16:41:25 (EST)
___Scott T. -:- Re: Tracking down Bal Bhagwan Ji -:- Tues, Mar 3, 1998 at 18:30:35 (EST)

John Cavad -:- To Why Still Read that Propaganda? -:- Mon, Mar 2, 1998 at 16:35:04 (EST)
___John Cavad -:- Re: To Why Still Read that Propaganda? -:- Mon, Mar 2, 1998 at 16:37:35 (EST)
___jim -:- Re: To Why Still Read that Propaganda? -:- Mon, Mar 2, 1998 at 20:07:08 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: To Why Still Read that Propaganda? -:- Mon, Mar 2, 1998 at 20:22:33 (EST)
___Sir David -:- Re: To Why Still Read that Propaganda? -:- Mon, Mar 2, 1998 at 21:06:44 (EST)
___Mickey the Pharisee -:- Re: To Why Still Read that Propaganda? -:- Tues, Mar 3, 1998 at 01:55:44 (EST)
___John Cavad -:- Re: To Why Still Read that Propaganda? -:- Tues, Mar 3, 1998 at 01:59:18 (EST)
___John Cavad -:- Re: To Why Still Read that Propaganda? -:- Tues, Mar 3, 1998 at 02:03:29 (EST)
___Mr Ex -:- Reading Propaganda & Therapy ... -:- Tues, Mar 3, 1998 at 04:34:38 (EST)
___John Cavad -:- Re: Reading Propaganda & Therapy ... -:- Tues, Mar 3, 1998 at 12:10:22 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: Reading Propaganda & Therapy ... -:- Tues, Mar 3, 1998 at 14:55:34 (EST)
___Taking a stand like a man -:- of integrity that he is, it's X-MAN -:- Tues, Mar 3, 1998 at 15:37:46 (EST)
___John Cavad -:- Re: Reading Propaganda & Therapy ... -:- Tues, Mar 3, 1998 at 16:40:00 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: Reading Propaganda & Therapy ... -:- Tues, Mar 3, 1998 at 16:51:09 (EST)
___Mickey the Pharisee -:- Re: To Why Still Read that Propaganda? -:- Tues, Mar 3, 1998 at 20:37:39 (EST)
___eb -:- Re: Reading Propaganda & Therapy ... -:- Tues, Mar 3, 1998 at 21:45:15 (EST)
___smelling like a -:- Rose -:- Tues, Mar 3, 1998 at 23:10:30 (EST)
___John Cavad -:- Re: Reading Propaganda & Therapy ... -:- Tues, Mar 3, 1998 at 23:26:03 (EST)
___Mickey the Pharisee -:- Re: Reading Propaganda & Therapy ... -:- Wed, Mar 4, 1998 at 01:23:45 (EST)
___And On Anand Ji -:- Re: To Why Still Read that Propaganda? -:- Fri, Mar 6, 1998 at 16:25:19 (EST)
___yes to the -:- call. -:- Sat, Mar 7, 1998 at 02:36:11 (EST)

Mr Ex -:- Maharaji, please teach me devotion -:- Mon, Mar 2, 1998 at 11:43:55 (EST)

Mr Ex -:- Maharaji, please teach me devotion -:- Mon, Mar 2, 1998 at 11:56:23 (EST)
___wiil ber -:- nice one x-man -:- Mon, Mar 2, 1998 at 14:51:55 (EST)
___Joy -:- Re: Maharaji, please teach me devotion -:- Mon, Mar 2, 1998 at 16:26:09 (EST)
___The Enquirer -:- Re: nice one x-man -:- Mon, Mar 2, 1998 at 16:56:31 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: Maharaji, please teach me devotion -:- Mon, Mar 2, 1998 at 17:02:36 (EST)
___John K. -:- Re: Maharaji, please teach me devotion -:- Tues, Mar 3, 1998 at 09:11:53 (EST)
___Rick -:- Re: Maharaji, please teach me devotion -:- Tues, Mar 3, 1998 at 11:11:17 (EST)
___John Cavad -:- Re: Maharaji, please teach me devotion -:- Tues, Mar 3, 1998 at 12:12:47 (EST)
___Something for -:- Fuzzbee -:- Wed, Mar 4, 1998 at 01:25:18 (EST)

CHR -:- Maharaji then and now -:- Mon, Mar 2, 1998 at 06:01:40 (EST)
___Brian -:- Re: Maharaji then and now -:- Mon, Mar 2, 1998 at 08:01:52 (EST)
___will -:- to chr (claudia h rawat?) -:- Mon, Mar 2, 1998 at 08:13:33 (EST)
___Rick -:- Re: Maharaji then and now -:- Mon, Mar 2, 1998 at 10:06:47 (EST)
___will bur -:- mother of god -:- Mon, Mar 2, 1998 at 10:32:03 (EST)
___John K. -:- Re: Maharaji then and now -:- Mon, Mar 2, 1998 at 11:02:57 (EST)
___I saw Jesus -:- on my bathroom wall -:- Mon, Mar 2, 1998 at 11:27:11 (EST)
___Ray -:- Re: Maharaji then and now -:- Mon, Mar 2, 1998 at 12:06:44 (EST)
___Sir Dave -:- Re: Maharaji then and now -:- Mon, Mar 2, 1998 at 13:11:03 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: Maharaji then and now -:- Mon, Mar 2, 1998 at 13:53:56 (EST)
___Joy -:- Re: Maharaji then and now -:- Mon, Mar 2, 1998 at 15:00:56 (EST)
___Wheel burr -:- Lord in the can -:- Mon, Mar 2, 1998 at 23:56:38 (EST)
___Straining at the feet -:- of the master -:- Tues, Mar 3, 1998 at 01:31:38 (EST)
___John Cavad -:- Re: Maharaji then and now -:- Tues, Mar 3, 1998 at 02:27:32 (EST)
___John Cavad -:- Re: Maharaji then and now -:- Tues, Mar 3, 1998 at 02:37:14 (EST)
___chr -:- Re: Maharaji then and now -:- Tues, Mar 3, 1998 at 05:40:53 (EST)
___John K. -:- Re: of the master -:- Tues, Mar 3, 1998 at 09:22:40 (EST)
___CD -:- Re: of the master -:- Tues, Mar 3, 1998 at 10:36:43 (EST)
___John K. -:- Re: of the master -:- Tues, Mar 3, 1998 at 10:53:52 (EST)
___Jim -:- Re: of the master -:- Tues, Mar 3, 1998 at 11:24:07 (EST)
___John K. -:- Re: of the master -:- Tues, Mar 3, 1998 at 11:40:19 (EST)
___Joy -:- Re: of the master -:- Tues, Mar 3, 1998 at 12:08:37 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: Maharaji then and now -:- Tues, Mar 3, 1998 at 15:15:51 (EST)
___A toast to -:- My Lord -:- Tues, Mar 3, 1998 at 15:16:28 (EST)
___CD= Chewing -:- Daisies -:- Tues, Mar 3, 1998 at 15:20:12 (EST)
___CD -:- Re: of the master -:- Tues, Mar 3, 1998 at 15:32:02 (EST)
___John K. -:- Re: Maharaji then and now -:- Tues, Mar 3, 1998 at 16:29:27 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: Maharaji then and now -:- Tues, Mar 3, 1998 at 17:08:50 (EST)
___Mickey the Pharisee -:- Re: My Lord -:- Tues, Mar 3, 1998 at 20:22:27 (EST)
___Jim -:- Re: My Lord -:- Tues, Mar 3, 1998 at 20:34:43 (EST)
___Mickey the Pharisee -:- Re: My Lord -:- Tues, Mar 3, 1998 at 20:40:37 (EST)
___Mickey the Pharisee -:- Re: My Lord -:- Tues, Mar 3, 1998 at 20:50:37 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: My Lord -:- Tues, Mar 3, 1998 at 20:57:21 (EST)
___Rick -:- Re: My Lord -:- Tues, Mar 3, 1998 at 21:18:26 (EST)
___Rick -:- Re: My Lord -:- Tues, Mar 3, 1998 at 21:18:32 (EST)



Date: Tues, Mar 3, 1998 at 20:50:56 (EST)
Poster: Sir David
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: Everyone
Subject: Bal Bhagwan Ji's address
Message:
Maharaji's oldest brother, Bal Bhagwan Ji (Satpal Maharaj) was minister of railways until June '97 when he was elevated to finance minister in the Indian goverment. See URL http://www.hindustantimes.com/100697/newsfp02.htm for more details. Here's an extract: "Mr. Satpal Maharaj assumed office as Minister of State for Finance on June 13, 1997. Speaking to the press people informally, he said that he will be looking into the matter of currency shortage. To overcome the shortage, the Ministry is also planning to introduce 'smart card', the Minister added. Mr.Satpal Maharaj also said that he would try to strengthen tourism infrastructure in remote areas like Uttarkhand, North-East and Jammu & Kashmir." Other URLs of interest are: http://206.252.12.4/gov/press/nov26_97.htm which details Satpal Maharaj's assistance to opium farmers and for a summary of his meeting with South Africa's High Commissioner go to URL http://www.nic.in/India-Image/PIB/PIBR180697.html. For a brief personal history, go to http://www.nic.in/India-Image/PIB/satpal.html This URL also gives his address which is; Mr Satpal Maharaj, 6 Raisina Road, New Delhi, India. I don't know the current state of Indian politics since their election (I believe they're still counting the votes in some places) but having been Finance Minister, our friend Satpal is certainly very well known in India. Much more famous than his youngest brother. The problem with contacting him would be ensuring he would personally receive any message, since like any top ranking politician, most of his mail will be opened and responded to by his secretaries. By the way, I've had to start a new thread because my ancient text web browser cannot send a long message if it's a reply to a thread.
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Date: Tues, Mar 3, 1998 at 21:00:00 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: Sir David
Subject: Re: Bal Bhagwan Ji's address
Message:
David, Excellent! My hunch is that Bal Bhagwan Ji, being Lord of Intelligence and the incarnation of Jesus, wouldn't think of speaking to us. Really, what's in it for him? On the other hand, there's always the Indian press, isn't there? Tell me this isn't a juicy story for some 'politics today' feature, or something like that. Hopefully, he's still in office or at least kept his seat. I'm taking a vacation for a few weeks. (Yes, I'll miss the New Yorker which is bound to come out, by my calculations, next Monday). If anyone knows an Indians who know and Indian media people, or if anyone wants to get in touch with the Indian Times or whatever journal and try to stir some interest. Hey, I know -- maybe this wouild be best done AFTER the New Yorker article. Then there's something timely to tie it in. But really, I know India's got a long leg and all that,still, could you imagine if the finance minister of Britain or Canada (or the U.S. counterpart) had BBJ's past? Better than fiction. Jim
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Date: Tues, Mar 3, 1998 at 22:47:35 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: Jim
Subject: Yep -- same one (Re: Bal Bhagwan Ji's address)
Message:
[Very modest leaves Millenium off his resume. Now that's class!] 21 September, 1951 Place of Birth : Pauri Garhwal, UP Father's Name : Late Mr Hans Ji Maharaj Present Address : Office: Room No.245, Rail Bhawan, New Delhi Residence : 6, Raisina Road, New Delhi Positions Held : Joined the Congress Party, 1989 Member, All India Congress Committee, March 1992 Convenor of Uttar Pradesh for 125th Birth Anniversary Celebrations of Mahatma Gandhi President, All India Indira Congress(Tiwari), Uttarakhand Unit Member of Parliament since 1996 Whip, All India Indira Congress(Tiwari) Other Information : Mr Satpal Maharaj undertook his first historic padyatra in 1983 called `Bharat Jagao Padyatra' from Badrinath to Boat Club, New Delhi. He also undertook padyatras from Bodh Gaya to Patna and Siliguri to Gangtok for mass awakening and for creating emotional integration and national solidarity.
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Date: Tues, Mar 3, 1998 at 23:02:06 (EST)
Poster: Joy
Email: Bluebirdd@aol.com
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Yep -- same one (Re: Bal Bhagwan Ji's address)
Message:
I thought that Mata Ji had set him up as an alternative Perfect Master in India, after the split from M, and that he had a large following there, with a few devotees even in the States. I wonder if all this political activity means he's given that up, or if he does both simultaneously? From what I understand of the split, the family was pretty firmly divided with M and Raja Ji and their families on one side, and not speaking for years to the other side, which was Mata Ji, BBJ and Bhole Ji. If it's really true that BBJ has no contact with M, and thinks he's a phony perfect master, maybe he WOULD be interested in saying something to us? It'd be worth a try.
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Date: Wed, Mar 4, 1998 at 00:03:39 (EST)
Poster: Volume one of the great
Email: **
To: Joy
Subject: MillRennieum (Re: Bal Bhagwan Ji's address)
Message:
I'll write his organisation for a list of publications that are available. And bhole Ji's album of bhajans to balbhagwhangee. I think that word in hindi in jim's post where it says 'he undertook his first... ' is a word meaning parade. Maybe he took that old swan cart out for a political and spiritual parade. What a clan. Definately he is shooting for president of India. Once bitten by the savior bug it's hard to give up. Look at Rennie Davis, it's bizarre to hear that he has written VOLUME ONE of some blabber about the coming changes (political? Social?) in the new(?) century. He had his glory in the student unrest 'we are different and we mean something special' movement. And then he was at the forefront of maharaji's millenium booster club. Announcing his lordship to the world. In 77, in denver Rennie was asked to get into politics and he kept sending messages to maharaji asking if he should do it. (he should have) And maharji said it was all mind so rennie became a frustrated insurance salesman. He snuck into maharaji's wedding party with another guy and maharaji glared at him and asked Bob Mishler angrily if everyone at the party was on the list, Mishler said yes yes and maharaji walked away and Rennie said the vibe was so heavy he left and wouldn't be showing up anywhere uninvited again. Rennie wants to show us all SOMETHING and lead us somehow. That hero thing perhaps.
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Date: Wed, Mar 4, 1998 at 00:52:25 (EST)
Poster: Scott T.
Email:
To: Volume one of the great
Subject: Re: MillRennieum (Re: Bal Bhagwan Ji's address)
Message:
Dear Volume: Regarding Rennie wants to show us all SOMETHING and lead us somehow. That hero thing perhaps. I've been thinking about that hero stuff too. Trouble is... my heritage is Welsh. The only Welsh heros I know about are creative alcoholics like Richard Burton and Dylan Thomas. Almost as bad as the Irish idea of a hero. No decent role models. (My apologies to all my fellow celts.) -Scott
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Date: Wed, Mar 4, 1998 at 02:38:40 (EST)
Poster: prince william
Email: **
To: Scott T.
Subject: MillyRennieum (Re: Bal Bhagwan Ji's address)
Message:
You can widen your ancestor list as those old ancient islanders were wandering and pillaging all over the isles for many generations and you are undoubtable related to the scots and londoners and even the irish, not to mention the norsemen and normans. And the bog man!
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Date: Wed, Mar 4, 1998 at 11:15:14 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: Joy
Subject: But doesn't it irk you a bit? (Re: Bal Bhagwan Ji's address)
Message:
Just think -- this guy not only gets us all thinking his brother's God (and so is he) but also the martians were coming to line up for cheese and avocado sandwiches at the astrodome. Then, he claims that HE's the Lord of the Universe and had been all along! Then, he keeps his brother's mailing list and becomes a politician, and apparently a successful one at that. Worse than Sonny Bono, worse than Ronald Reagan. Really, closer perhaps to the Pat Robertson nightmare than anything else. Wilder than Salman Rushdie. If he wasn't tossed in the last election, we should find some way of getting himto tell his story, whatever the hell that is.
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Date: Wed, Mar 4, 1998 at 13:25:48 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: Jim
Subject: Re: But doesn't it irk you a bit? (Re: Bal Bhagwan Ji's address)
Message:
Just think -- this guy not only gets us all thinking his brother's God (and so is he) but also the martians were coming to line up for cheese and avocado sandwiches at the astrodome. Then, he claims that HE's the Lord of the Universe and had been all along! Then, he keeps his brother's mailing list and becomes a politician, and apparently a successful one at that. Worse than Sonny Bono, worse than Ronald Reagan. Really, closer perhaps to the Pat Robertson nightmare than anything else. Wilder than Salman Rushdie. If he wasn't tossed in the last election, we should find some way of getting himto tell his story, whatever the hell that is. I'm not so sure Bal Bagwan was ever elected to anything. I think his ministry might be an appointed position, given to him as a political hack who donated money to the Congress Party, and who possibly can deliver some votes from people who belong to his religious group. But his ministry might be in some danger. I heard the Congress Party took a beating in the recent election, and that more seats went to the conservative Hindu party and the left wing parties. Maybe old BB will be out of a job soon.
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Date: Wed, Mar 4, 1998 at 15:06:29 (EST)
Poster: chr
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: But doesn't it irk you a bit? (Re: Bal Bhagwan Ji's address)
Message:
In early 1974 Bal bagwan ji came to Australia.Because we'd had so little darshan here we treated him like God,especially in Melbourne where I lived at the time.Anyway a few months later when M got married and the whole split happened,he came back to Australia on the way to India.I guess he came here because of his earlier reception.He was incredibly confused and angry.M tracked him down and phoned him but BBJ refused to talk.The poor premie who answered the phone was being told on one end to get BBJ and on the other end BBJ was telling the premie to tell M that he wasn't there. A friend of mine went to India after the Rome HJ in 77.He visited Premnagar and it was full of huge pictures of BBJ. Whats happening there now, I have no idea.
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Date: Wed, Mar 4, 1998 at 22:00:45 (EST)
Poster: My letter to the Hindu Times
Email:
To: Sir David
Subject: Re: Bal Bhagwan Ji's address
Message:
I sent a copy of the above post, along with this note, to the Hindu Times: Dear Sir or Madam: Below is a post from a web page run by the former followers of Prem Pal Singh Rawat, the once young Indian guru who made quite a splash in the west in the early seventies.  Originally from Hardwar, I believe, he and his family claimed to be "divine" and he, in particular, asserted that he was Guru Maharaj Ji, the Lord of the Universe! His organization, Divine Light Mission, hosted a number of events.  The most famous, however, was called Millenium '73 at the Astrodome in Houston, Texas.  There, Maharaji was supposed to usher in a "thousand years of peace" for all mankind.  Grandiose?  Of course.  Ridiculous?  Absolutely.  Still, we westerners were quite taken with the Indian spiritual mystique back then.  A lot of us were simply taken. The reason I write is that it has come to our attention that his eldest brother, a man we knew as Bal Bhagwan Ji, aand who, we were told, was the incarnation of Jesus Christ, is a significant Indian politician.  His name, apparently, is Satpal Maharaj and, until recently at least, he was the Congress Party's Finance Minister.  Do you know him? At Millenium Satpal was outrageous.  He got all us to think aliens were coming to prostrate at the feet of his kid brother.  The comet Kohoutek, he said, was a harbinger of the greatness of young Maharaj Ji (now 'Maharaji').  As luck would have it, the young Perfect Master married a beautiful Californian soon after the festival and the family broke asunder.  Satpal returned to India with his mother and tried to assert his own right to the assets of Divine Light Mission.  He was the one his father had appointed the Lord of Light, not his brother. So, please, could you take a moment and tell me how it is that this fascinating character could become a viable politician of such prominence?  Is his background unknown in India?  How many other former pretenders to the throne of divinty were in the last cabinet? Regards, Jim Heller
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Date: Wed, Mar 4, 1998 at 23:20:45 (EST)
Poster: alien X
Email:
To: My letter to the Hindu Times
Subject: Re: Bal Bhagwan Ji's address
Message:
>He got all us to think aliens were coming to prostrate at the feet of his kid brother.  Yes of course. And also you abstained from sex for 8 years. Now which is it that really got you going on your new crusade? Missing the chance to meet aliens or missing a good hippie orgy? So, please, could you take a moment and tell me how it is that such a fascinating character as yourself could become a viable spokesperson of such prominence?  Yes, on your planet great success does seem to arise from suprising beginnings. Regards, The Man From Planet X
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Date: Thurs, Mar 5, 1998 at 12:02:54 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: alien X
Subject: Re: Bal Bhagwan Ji's address
Message:
What's your point, master cylinder, that sex is bad and lying guru's good?
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Date: Tues, Mar 3, 1998 at 20:07:07 (EST)
Poster: larkin
Email: larkin@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: everyone
Subject: well if m can spout bad poetry...
Message:
the lord is but a fraud never mind that he's adored by a sad and mindless horde 'cos the lord is just a fraud the lord is but a fraud lots of palaces abroad see him sitting on his hoard 'cos the lord is just a fraud the lord is but a fake just a lizard, just a snake one more guru on the make 'cos the lord is just a fake the lord is but a fake please don't follow in his wake it could be your worst mistake 'cos the lord is just a fake the lord is but a sham with a million-dollar scam seling doughnuts without jam 'cos the lord is just a sham the lord is but a sham he's as mortal as i am don't believe me? - ask his mam 'cos the lord is but a sham the lord is but a liar equivocator and denier with a private jet 'on hire' 'cos the lord is just a liar the lord is but a liar omni-nothing, it transpires when his residence caught fire 'cos the lord is just a liar the lord is but a git just an egocentric twit who will drop you in the shit 'cos the lord is just a git the lord is but a git who isn't even fit to give knowledge to zit 'cos the lord is just a git the lord is but a clown so in love with his renown he don't care who he brings down 'cos the lord is just a clown the lord is but a clown have you seen that krishna crown? does he wear it round the town? yes the lord is just a clown the lord is but a fraud but the truth will, like a sword deal a suitable reward in our dreams, probably...
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Date: Tues, Mar 3, 1998 at 21:03:36 (EST)
Poster: Sir David
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: larkin
Subject: Re: well if m can spout bad poetry...
Message:
Brilliant. msg
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Date: Wed, Mar 4, 1998 at 00:10:59 (EST)
Poster: will
Email: **
To: Sir David
Subject: Re: well if m can spout bad poetry...
Message:
Thank you for that great laugh.
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Date: Wed, Mar 4, 1998 at 15:15:31 (EST)
Poster: Nick
Email: nickk@upbeat.demon.co.uk
To: larkin
Subject: Re: well if m can spout bad poetry...
Message:
Thanks Larkin - enjoyed that.
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Date: Mon, Mar 2, 1998 at 20:51:22 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: Everyone
Subject: Tracking down Bal Bhagwan Ji
Message:
The Indian elections are in the news and that got me wondering, is Bal Bhagwan Ji out there running? Wouldn't it be neat to track him down and ask him all the obvious questions (like who did he love more, Joan Apter, Susan Butcher or Helen McLellan?)? If he really is is public office -- and I believe Mr. Ex posited that BBJ was an official in the Ministry of Transportation ('KOHOUTEK stands for Knock-Out HOUsten Texas' -- alright!) -- he should be one member of the Holy Family answerable to the press. Anyone got any ties to the Indian Media establishment?
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Date: Tues, Mar 3, 1998 at 12:17:13 (EST)
Poster: John K.
Email:
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Tracking down Bal Bhagwan Ji
Message:
Actually, now that I think about it, the few times I heard BBJ speak, I thought he sounded fairly intelligent. Maybe it was because he got more of an education? You're right, it would be interesting to hear his side of the story. Jim, why don't you go over to India, on special assignment. You could approach BBJ as a repentant premie wanting to spread his mission to the west. Or does he have a following here already? Ya know, since he was first born he probably has an even more inflated ego than the youngest, though how could that be? True to form, the middle children again prove to be the low achievers. Are all the brothers on speaking terms with each other?
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Date: Tues, Mar 3, 1998 at 13:14:23 (EST)
Poster: Sir David
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: John K.
Subject: Re: Tracking down Bal Bhagwan Ji
Message:
It may help if you look for ol' Bal Bagwan using his real name: Sat Pal Rowat or Sat Pal Singh Rowat. I believe that's his correct full name.
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Date: Tues, Mar 3, 1998 at 15:54:59 (EST)
Poster: Mr Ex
Email:
To: Sir David
Subject: Re: Tracking down Bal Bhagwan Ji
Message:
It may help if you look for ol' Bal Bagwan using his real name: Sat Pal Rowat or Sat Pal Singh Rowat. I believe that's his correct full name. Satpal Maharaj (he uses this name in politics) Satpal Singh Rawat
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Date: Tues, Mar 3, 1998 at 15:57:14 (EST)
Poster: Eldest head of the
Email: **
To: Sir David
Subject: holy hydra (Re: Tracking down Bal Bhagwan Ji)
Message:
I'm sure he would read a letter from Jim. Careful not to piss him off, he might uncork some interesting info over time. Family ties exist in spite of hate and he is also a hindu god so no need to hammer his hinduism and insanity. I'm sure his organisation has printed material from his mom and some history publication that explains everything according to that faction of the clan. Maybe bhole Ji has a new album! I'm sure of it. Maybe you can complete that spoon set! Who knows what the marketing dept. has in the Lord balbhagwan ji line. Spring fashions are about to come out!
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Date: Tues, Mar 3, 1998 at 16:41:25 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Tracking down Bal Bhagwan Ji
Message:
Didn't someone post a while back that Bal Bhagwan is both some sort of government minister, and also heads some sort of religious organization? Is he the head of DLM in India as well a politician?
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Date: Tues, Mar 3, 1998 at 18:30:35 (EST)
Poster: Scott T.
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: Tracking down Bal Bhagwan Ji
Message:
Didn't someone post a while back that Bal Bhagwan is both some sort of government minister, and also heads some sort of religious organization? Is he the head of DLM in India as well a politician? JW, et al: In might be interesting to speculate, or start a rumor to the effect, that his combination of spiritual and religious aspirations make him an ideal candidate for the contemporary anti-christ. Don't the letters of his name add up to 666 or something? -Scott
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Date: Mon, Mar 2, 1998 at 16:35:04 (EST)
Poster: John Cavad
Email: johncavad@yahoo.com
To: Everyone
Subject: To Why Still Read that Propaganda?
Message:
Dear Mr. Ex, Jim, and all those other Ex's who insist on still subscribing, reading, listening and/or watching the EV & GMJ propaganda, Please help me understand why you still do this. Besides the reasons for keeping current, performing research and passing this information onto the web site, what does this do for you guys? Is it cathartic for you; is it recommended therapy for ex-prenies? Some of you buy/borrow videos, tapes, books, magazines. I know many of you have kept old magazines, tapes, etc. Does an ex-alcoholic need another drink to know what it was all about? (I know it's not exactly the same addiction, but it's an addiction nonetheless.) Please tell me. When I started reading all that satsang thanks to Mr. Ex, I thought, "Oh my God!
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Date: Mon, Mar 2, 1998 at 16:37:35 (EST)
Poster: John Cavad
Email:
To: John Cavad
Subject: Re: To Why Still Read that Propaganda?
Message:
Dear Mr. Ex, Jim, and all those other Ex's who insist on still subscribing, reading, listening and/or watching the EV & GMJ propaganda, Please help me understand why you still do this. Besides the reasons for keeping current, performing research and passing this information onto the web site, what does this do for you guys? Is it cathartic for you; is it recommended therapy for ex-prenies? Some of you buy/borrow videos, tapes, books, magazines. I know many of you have kept old magazines, tapes, etc. Does an ex-alcoholic need another drink to know what it was all about? (I know it's not exactly the same addiction, but it's an addiction nonetheless.) Please tell me. When I started reading all that satsang thanks to Mr. Ex, I thought, 'Oh my God! (Continued...I got cut off) When I started reading all that satsang thanks to Mr. Ex, I thought, "Oh my God! Enough all ready!" But at the same time I really wanted to read on (don't get all excited premies) to hear what GMJ is saying now compared to 20 years ago. So I did, but I certainly didn't enjoy it...I cringed thinking about all the years I fell for that brainwashing! Please Understand - No offense or criticism intended to anyone. I just am very interested in knowing your reasons. Thank you very much. - John
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Date: Mon, Mar 2, 1998 at 20:07:08 (EST)
Poster: jim
Email:
To: John Cavad
Subject: Re: To Why Still Read that Propaganda?
Message:
Envious, John? What is it, the Lord of the Universe album or the Millenium program guide issue of AIID? Maybe my old copy of Who Is Guru Maharaj Ji? Or the Lord of the Universe video? John, after I left the path of light, I became completely fixated on material goods. It doesn't really matter what they are, I just like 'em. Some people get into sex, others philosophy, still others art or music. For me, it's just things. But, if you've ever tried collecting things you'll realize that there are a lot of them. Big things, little things and the list goes on and on. Believe me, there are all sorts of things. So, free from the shackles of yesteryear I put on my refurbished thinking cap and figured out that I had to narrow my interest. But how? Now here's where it all comes together. I left the ashram with barely the shirt on my back. Well, slightly better off, I guess, I did have a few copies of Elan Vital. Here, I thought, will I begin my collection. It was that simple. Whatever was in my pocket, I believe, might have become my obsession. (Luckily, I didn't have any holes in my pockets!) Almost random but really not at all. Just plain chance. Beyond that, I guess you could say I enjoy looking at this old shit for: a) a reminder of the wonderful whacky realm known as 'Maharaji's World.' b) proof to those who can't imagine that I really thought a little fat Indian kid was the Lord of the Universe. c) entertainment value. That's why.
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Date: Mon, Mar 2, 1998 at 20:22:33 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: John Cavad
Subject: Re: To Why Still Read that Propaganda?
Message:
I wouldn't be so sure that many exes actually look at this stuff. I haven't seen anything in a good 14 years, except, after finding this site, someone gave me a fairly recent video to watch which I did watch out of curiosity. That was quite enough thank you. I watched it mainly because premies were saying that Maharaji's cult was now less of a cult than it was. Well, I watched the video, and found that nothing much had changed, except a couple of words here and there and no more krishna outfit. [Also, Maharaji's eyes are real puffy now and he has big bags under them but otherwise, it's just the same, he's still boring and repetitive and can't speak English too well.] I think Mr.Ex is still on the mailing list and so he shares some recent stuff sometimes. Can't say I could really handle that, but I think that Australian program means something, I just don't know what! I think Joy has saved some stuff because she did "service" at SHIP producing those garish magazines. But Joy did a good job, considering what she had to work with. But I think it's interesting once in a while to see what he's saying to see: 1) That I have come a long way baby since being able to listen to that crap ad nauseum and be able to accept it as something other than utter nonsense, and 2) It makes me appreciate the fact that I got out of it when I did.
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Date: Mon, Mar 2, 1998 at 21:06:44 (EST)
Poster: Sir David
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: jim
Subject: Re: To Why Still Read that Propaganda?
Message:
Up until 1992 I had all the editions of "Divine Light" ever printed, bound together. You would have loves those. Unfortunately they were stolen by an intruder. I still have a few Divine Light mags (see my extract of Q & A in thread below and I do have a whole load of "Premies" mags from Maharaji's super devotional 70's period. I have a question and answer tape from mid seventies with Maharaji answering questions in America. All the premies asking questions sound completely freaked out and depressed and Maharaji is enjoying his hold over them. Listening to the tape now, I can begin to understand how Maharaji wealded so much power and influence over us then. The premies all sound confused, depressed or just plain freaked out and Maharaji is using that to his own advantage. He comes across as the audacious, careless know-all that he is. I think the premies are all freaked out because of the severity of the path they are trying to follow. Maharaji isn't following the path that he's laid down for these poor restricted premies but he's clearly enjoying the power he has over them. Some premies sound like they're crying but I hear no sympathy or understanding in Maharaji's voice. In essence the trip seems to have been; offer people infinite bliss to catch them; freak them out and disorientate them by making them abandon their desires and personalities and then when they're sufficiently de-humanised - control them.
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Date: Tues, Mar 3, 1998 at 01:55:44 (EST)
Poster: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net
To: John Cavad
Subject: Re: To Why Still Read that Propaganda?
Message:
I still have my copy of Who Is Guru Maharaj Ji? and albums by the Anand Band, the Apostles, Blue Aquarius, and Jiva. Four years ago, when I was preparing to move to Berkeley, I found a box of my devotional pictures, copies of Divine Times, And It Is Divine, and local premie newsletters (I did the comic strips), but I tossed everything except the premie newsletters because they had my own comic strips. I kept the frames but tossed the pictures. I just didn't have any use for that stuff anymore, but I have to admit, reading such things such as the old M satsangs that Mili used to post on Harlan's site reminded me why I got out! That stuff is still fun to read and it's amazing to think we were so wrapped up in it.
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Date: Tues, Mar 3, 1998 at 01:59:18 (EST)
Poster: John Cavad
Email:
To: All
Subject: Re: To Why Still Read that Propaganda?
Message:
Jim, yes, I suppose I am a bit envious. I, being a non-ashram employed man, bought everything and collected anything those greedy merchants sold at programs. I had boxes of this shit filled with magazines, photos, tapes, music, buttons from festivals (any of you still got those?), newspaper clippings, barogans, etc. I left everything in the attic of my father's house in NYC when I moved to California 15 years ago. Years later when visiting my father's house, I asked him for all my GMJ boxes. He said, "I threw away all that bullshit the week you left." If I only knew you way back then, Jim, I would have mailed those boxes of "bullshit" to you. :) Anyway, thanks everyone for the responses. It's actually to my benefit that many of you keep current on all this. Otherwise, I wouldn't feel like an expert in this field. I forgot a lot of this satsang until you guys quoted it on this site.
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Date: Tues, Mar 3, 1998 at 02:03:29 (EST)
Poster: John Cavad
Email:
To: Mickey the Pharisee
Subject: Re: To Why Still Read that Propaganda?
Message:
You know Michael, I still have my copy of Who Is Guru Maharaj Ji also. That's one book I would not store or throw out. Why? I always knew it would eventually go out of print and never be available again. Plus, I wanted to some day read the entire book. Have you ever read it in its entirity? Man, it's such a poorly written book - very difficult to get through.
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Date: Tues, Mar 3, 1998 at 04:34:38 (EST)
Poster: Mr Ex
Email:
To: John Cavad
Subject: Reading Propaganda & Therapy ... (Re: To Why Still Read that Propaganda?)
Message:
>Please help me understand why you still do this. >Besides the reasons for keeping current, performing >research and passing this information onto the web site, >what does this do for you guys? Is it cathartic for you; First thing I have to confess is that it makes me feel extremely good, almost blissed out, to think that Mr Rawat and PAM are extremely pissed off with what’s being said and published here. There are obviously deep reasons for me feeling this way, sort of revenge and finding some sense of worth back. It would be difficult for me to admit that all this BS could still exist and me being wrong, maybe I need some kind of recognition from other people to add something to my own sense of worth that’s been so shattered in this ridiculous guru trip. What do you think of yourself when you’ve had so much admiration for such a ridiculous guy? I have to go beyond this. I’m also still very much attached to many premies I love in that group. I had dinner the other day with some who were in Amaroo, and told me about what happened there, all the gossip etc I was feeling some regrets: then they gave me all these tapes to listen. Then I listened to these tapes, and I realized 2 things: 1/ Amaroo is indeed a beautiful place. Being there (I’ve been there once for a few days) in such a group can be a wonderful time. 2/ What m says is ridiculous and really makes sense to me now, but not as it would in the past. I now feel that these people I used to like so much before are really strange guys because of their involvement in this BS. I don’t want to be like them/this (typical premie behavior etc) anymore! I’m also into some intense therapy, and maybe this is really something cathartic. I’m having fun with it anyway. I have at least one more ‘satsang’ to transcribe ..... be patient: how Mr Rawat treats his servants. I can’t just keep it for me that this is a big fraud I’ve been involved in for 25 years, and not being able to do anything about it. Maybe you meet a charlatan one day, you realize he’s a fraud, you feel stupid, talk about it with your friends and that’s it. But when you’ve spent 25 years like an idiot with the Lord of the Universe, and then you realize he is not, what do you do? What will I say to my friends, to my family, to the people who ask questions about it? I can’t hide such a long period of my life. This is a process of clarification for me. I have to understand how and why all his rhetoric had such an impact on me, what kind of interactions I had with these people in EV in such positions of power. I’ve felt so ridiculous in this organization, with all these guys trying to prove I don’t know what, when there is absolutely no hope of proving anything to anybody, trying to make something serious out of the most ridiculous trip of the universe, doesn’t give you any sense of worth. This trip is really obnoxious, and showing it and being able to explain and formulate it is maybe that cathartic way of recovering and finding some sense of dignity (I now understand I was feeling I had lost almost all whilst in the guru trip_ that was the reason I was feeling so bad, Like most of the premies do BTW in relation to the ‘world’). I had lost all sense of dignity whilst involved in EV, I was quite aware of it and trying to protect myself (not maharaji) with ridiculous concepts. It was very hard and painful. A big part of EV’s activities now is to help those people involved not to feel too bad. Well, enough said for the moment .... >is it recommended therapy for ex-premies? Nobody has recommended me anything. I started a therapy when I started realizing I had a big problem, I never imagined it was related to ‘knowledge ‘! Nor would I recommend anything to anybody. I think that talking and reading about what’s been difficult for someone could be very helpful, but it’s a long way.
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Date: Tues, Mar 3, 1998 at 12:10:22 (EST)
Poster: John Cavad
Email:
To: Mr Ex
Subject: Re: Reading Propaganda & Therapy ... (Re: To Why Still Read that Propaganda?)
Message:
Thank you, Mr. Ex, for that detailed explanation. You make a lot of good sense to me. I also enjoy exposing this lord of the universe as just another guy manipulating and captivating good people in their moment of weakness or naiveness. It was very easy to choose GMJ as the right (cult) path to follow. You know if you read about other cults, GMJ appears so much more sophisticated, so much kinder, more sincere than all the other leaders of cults. I recognized this as a premie and even now. But the psychological damage as a result of surrendering to such a man is absolutely NO DIFFERENT than surrendering to any maniac, including psychos like Jim Jones. (Well, those poor followers are dead now.) My point is although GMJ does not give premies the public image of being total freaks, premies might as well shave their heads banging tambourines chanting nonsense on a street corner. It makes no difference how GMJ's marketing program effectively makes it all seem secular, earthbound or plain normal. The damage a premie will experience with GMJ is the same as if with the Moonies. It's mind control, brainwashing, it's all pathological.
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Date: Tues, Mar 3, 1998 at 14:55:34 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: John Cavad
Subject: Re: Reading Propaganda & Therapy ... (Re: To Why Still Read that Propaganda?)
Message:
I agree that the path Maharaji offers is essentially pathological, and not unlike other cults. In my opinion, that's because it requires one to relate to Maharaji as a child relates to an adult, even though chronologically, the premie is not a child. That's pathological because it results in stunted development and growth, and that's why premies are often such miserable people. When the misery comes, many cling all the harder to Maharaji to save them from the misery. Kind of a vicious circle. That certainly was true for me. I also recall going to an ex-cult-members group in Berkeley after I left and I was amazed, and confronted, at how similar the experiences of Moonies, for example, were to my own. There was really less of a difference than you might imagine in the two cults. I think the "kinder/gentler" image of Maharaji comes from him entering the trip as a child himself. In fact, I was attracted to him partly because of his "childlike" view of things and his lack of sophistication. But I think as he got older, and more frustrated that things weren't working out too well, he got angrier and more abusive, at least I saw him be that way to people around him, and I also recall his satsangs to premies at programs got very heavy for a while there in the late 70s and early 80s. Remember that Kissimee satsang in 1979? Fire and brimstone. He was about 22 at the time, he was getting a little older, but still pretty young.
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Date: Tues, Mar 3, 1998 at 15:37:46 (EST)
Poster: Taking a stand like a man
Email: **
To: Mr Ex
Subject: of integrity that he is, it's X-MAN (Re: To Why Still Read that Propaganda?)
Message:
Great response x-man. Not to mention that the rest of us really appreciate your postings and perspective. And we certainly can relate.
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Date: Tues, Mar 3, 1998 at 16:40:00 (EST)
Poster: John Cavad
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: Reading Propaganda & Therapy ... (Re: To Why Still Read that Propaganda?)
Message:
Hi, JW. Yea, the fact that he was a child may have had something to do with the initial attraction to this particular cult. (Side Note) You asked, "Remember that Kissimee satsang in 1979? Fire and brimstone." I was there. Remember me? I was the flighty 23 year old kid trying to pick up every sexy sister from every country. Actually, I was there two weeks before the festival doing some fine service. One service I did daily (and nightly) was drive a cargo van to Tampa and Miami picking up premies from the airports. We would have satsang and sing devotional songs on the way. Once (while I was bored driving for hours) I started singing "99 Bottles of Beer on the Wall" and everyone got really pissed off at me. So, one asshole started singing Arti - interupted my song before I could reach 88 Bottles of Beer!!!!
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Date: Tues, Mar 3, 1998 at 16:51:09 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: John Cavad
Subject: Re: Reading Propaganda & Therapy ... (Re: To Why Still Read that Propaganda?)
Message:
Speaking of Kissimee, have you noticed in the news recently that Kissimee, Florida was practically destroyed by tornadoes? I heard on the radio a woman being interviewed because her trailer home got blown away. I thought to myself: you mean people actually LIVE in that place? I recall it as a rather big, bug-infested swamp, that we pitched our tents in and sat in the sun while listening to initiators blather on for hours all day from the main stage, until Guru Maharaj Ji came on and sat in blissful air conditioning to share is simplistic platitudes while we continued to fry. BTW -- Have I ever told the story about how an international drug ring was operating at Hans Jayanti in Kissimee, AND in the satsang hall in Miami? It's a great story.
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Date: Tues, Mar 3, 1998 at 20:37:39 (EST)
Poster: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net
To: John Cavad
Subject: Re: To Why Still Read that Propaganda?
Message:
You know Michael, I still have my copy of Who Is Guru Maharaj Ji also. That's one book I would not store or throw out. Why? I always knew it would eventually go out of print and never be available again. Plus, I wanted to some day read the entire book. Have you ever read it in its entirity? Man, it's such a poorly written book - very difficult to get through. I bought the book at a 7-11 one night on acid. I had a friend who was a Premie and so I figured the book would explain things. I thought that it was poorly written and laughed my way through it. About six-months later, I'm going to satsang and begging for Knowledge! THEN I thought the book was like scripture, "what beautiful stories of grace!" What the hell happened? Maybe there was some kinda crazy brainwashing chemical on the pages! I haven't read it since, but I still have it!
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Date: Tues, Mar 3, 1998 at 21:45:15 (EST)
Poster: eb
Email:
To: everyone
Subject: Re: Reading Propaganda & Therapy ... (Re: To Why Still Read that Propaganda?)
Message:
Dear ex-premies, I rarely post, but I check the forum daily... mostly because I spent so many years of my life dedicated to Maharaji, and no one I come in contact with nowadays would understand what I've been through to free myself from the cult. Reading the propaganda reminds me of where I was at(scary thought). I appreciate the forum for the humor, the insights, and (for me) its therapeutic properties. With gratitude, eb
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Date: Tues, Mar 3, 1998 at 23:10:30 (EST)
Poster: smelling like a
Email: **
To: eb
Subject: Rose (Re: To Why Still Read that Propaganda?)
Message:
Got to agree, eb, This forum happening, and happening the way it has, has really been something special. Who possibly is there that can give us a hand with this whole subject? My wife said in early summer I should go see a shrink. I said what the heck good would that do? I would first have to educate him on the whole complex deal. I see x-man and maybe others say that it can work but I doubt it would have been much use for me. The forum here is a place of support where you can rebuild your brain. Even if maharaji came clean recently and turned himself around we would still need to be rescued from the previous programming. I am sure he himself comes here for chunks of time. Who will talk with him? This is all about him and he looks here in amazement sometimes and it deepens the severity of any doubts he has. And he does have them as evidenced by the first amaroo post by x-man. He is in way to deep to come out of it maybe ever. He gets mixed signals in his life and he goes with the easiest road. But really it's the harder road. He has spent so long doing this and he has so many staunch believer types like stu and so-called premie. I hope this hasn't ripped you apart too much. Sounds like the brunt of it is past you. Forward through the fog! You loved someone, and someone loved you. The movie ended but the real stuff remains.
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Date: Tues, Mar 3, 1998 at 23:26:03 (EST)
Poster: John Cavad
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: Reading Propaganda & Therapy ... (Re: To Why Still Read that Propaganda?)
Message:
Hey, JW. I want to hear those stories.
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Date: Wed, Mar 4, 1998 at 01:23:45 (EST)
Poster: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net
To: John Cavad
Subject: Re: Reading Propaganda & Therapy ... (Re: To Why Still Read that Propaganda?)
Message:
Hey, JW. I want to hear those stories. Me too, let's hear these stories; they sound too good to keep to yourself!
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Date: Fri, Mar 6, 1998 at 16:25:19 (EST)
Poster: And On Anand Ji
Email: aoa
To: ----
Subject: Re: To Why Still Read that Propaganda?
Message:
Dear Mr. Ex, Jim, and all those other Ex's who insist on still subscribing, reading, listening and/or watching the EV & GMJ propaganda, Please help me understand why you still do this. [-- snip! --] Since it's a psych phenomenon, I'd liken it to visiting an alcoholic ward in a hospital -- re-reading satsang with different eyes should, by rights, strengthen the conviction one has that it was all quite harmful and not benign. Stripped of its veneer of legitimacy of spiritual doctrine, satsang is often nonsensical and circularly-referential. More insidiously, I suspect I'm seeing it as slowly and carefully bent to the will and purpose of its purveyor, straying far from its original, cannonical, reference-point (which itself may turn out to be mythical and entirely fictional!) I don't say it's necessary -- but I think depending on the individual, it can be cleansing, up to a point, to review the older material -- especially if one restricts one's self to re-reading the earliest, more audacious satsangs of Shri Maharaj and of the younger Sant Ji and Guru Maharaji, circa 1970-1975. Before the great rewrite of history. For the strong of heart, I don't know; maybe slumming in contemporary satsang is also revealing. I feel a keen betrayal when I do it; modern satsang sometimes works on me for a minute or two. I feel soiled afterward. And in that sense, it does feel like a failure of character, to allow the abuser another access to me. Another preventable, fresh access. I HAVE A RIGHT to be inaccurate. I have a right to be emotional. After all, if my charges are accurate (as determined by the Courts and objective testimony) then I have been systematically damaged, along these very axii. If my entire system of reasoning has been tainted (again, as determined by outside experts) then it seems to me I have a natural right here to be somewhat off the mark, in my thinking and my reasoning. All the more to my credit, that I see it clearly enough to say: OUCH. You hurt me, Maharaji.
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Date: Sat, Mar 7, 1998 at 02:36:11 (EST)
Poster: yes to the
Email: **
To: And On Anand Ji
Subject: call. (Re: To Why Still Read that Propaganda?)
Message:
Love your expression. really well done.
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Date: Mon, Mar 2, 1998 at 11:43:55 (EST)
Poster: Mr Ex
Email:
To: Everyone
Subject: Maharaji, please teach me devotion
Message:
Listen guys, you haven’t learned anything yet ! 20 years of practice of meditation couldn’t take you anywhere. Knowledge is ONLY about DEVOTION. If you could only feel that simple thing, you wouldn’t be complaining, because it’s SO BEAUTIFUL. The tree is such a beautiful tree, and bares such beautiful fruits. Listen, and maybe you’ll find closure. My dear brothers and sisters, it was such a true pleasure to listen to that tape. In Amaroo, on november 19 1997, evening satsang, after 2 beautiful devotional songs, Maharaji spoke for one hour about the real feeling you can experience for your Master in the World of Konwledge. Please listen carefully. He even finally shed some light on what people have been calling ‘The tree of Knowledge’ for so long. Without true Knowledge of the Living Master, how could anybody understand this? Blessed are those who listen to him and really understang the true meaning on the true feeling of his message. Instrumental music (song ) : ‘oh my lord, I love you so my lord, and I know ....’ Daya sings : ‘If you want to wander and roam, go on, till you’re tired and you want to go home .... Maharaji has come to lead us along the path of perfection, he has come to make us feel why we’re alive, his love is pure and deeper that the ocean ..... and we’re asking please please please teach me devotion, maharaji please show me, I’m ready to start, I can see that your love is deeper than the ocean ....Teach us devotion! Come to my heart and let me feel love.’ This evening, I think that’s a very appropriate topic to talk about : devotion. Because what does it mean ? devotion cannot be analyzed. Devotion cannot be explained away. But it is something that is felt. When there is a connection, when there is an understanding, that when it comes together, that when it becomes complete. Because in this life, we will have many relationships. There is the father, the mother, the uncle ..... And we look and we have these connections. And I’ve seen it many times : family get together, every member of the family comes, and somebody brings the pie, and somebody brings ... all the unhealthy things you can possibly imagine. I guess there is a message in there somewhere, hurry up. .............. all those things that people do. I remember somebody once said to me: ’you are my uncle’. And I said: ’no I’m not. Please I’m not your uncle’. Because I need my relations to be very straight. And I want the relationship of the heart, and I want to depend on that. I want to depend on the beauty inside, I wanna depend upon that experience. (Here Maharaji obviously states once more he is no regular human being. He is not his nephew’s uncle ....) And maybe in a way it’s kind of odd, because my father is not physically alive, my relationship has always been greater that the one I have seen is the one that master and student. And I wanna depend on that. And I remember many times my father, Shri Maharaji he would talk about his master. And it was so beautiful. Cause his master wasn’t around then. Because he had so much love, so much admiration, and to put it in few words, or just one word : it would be that devotion. And that admiration was not fake. And when he would talk about his master, he would talk about this one couplet ‘that I was being swept in the river, and then my master extended his hand out, and caught me’. And then he gave me lamp, he gave me this knowledge, and then even in the darkness I could see. And what was impossible to happen in lifetimes, happened instantly. Sometimes we forget what it means this river. What river exactly is been talked about. Believe me it’s not the Brisbane river, but it’s the river of exactly those things we’ve been talking about earlier, the doubts, the confusion, because it comes, the certainties that we want, and yet we are faced with the uncertainty. In this life, we have our ideas of what we mean to be progressive, we have our ideas of what it means to have graduated from the school of hard knocks. The school of hard knocks basically means you had to learn everything the hard way in this life. And so to us all of a sudden maybe it becomes I have achieved something. When a human being loses their own sense of existence, when a human being loses that sense of being alive, then they have to weigh their existence by other things. It’s like currency. If it’s a gold standard it’s weighed by gold. But then if it’s not attached to any gold standard, it sits there and it’s weighed by something else. Whatever happens to be. Whatever the stock market decides, .... When a human being loses their real sense of worth, and when a person is satisfied that being alive is the most important thing, is the greatest thing, then they look at their life and they feel a sense of worth. But when in confusion and in ideas that sense of worth is taken away, now, to replace that sense of worth we measure our worth by what we have achieved, by what we have, by what we could be ... I remember, I knew of a guy, sometimes he’d come around and he would talk he could have been this, and he could have been that, he was almost this and he was almost that. I got so sick and tired of the guy that I said ‘make sure this guy doesn’t come here anymore’. I can’t stand the could be’s. Of what we could have been. I almost had that. I almost could be that. And then we go shopping for what it is that could give us our worth back, our sense back. So then somebody says in a very beautiful way, that what we consider to be our strength .... Some people : ‘I am so and so’. And then some people consider their strength : I have achieved such and such things in my life. Certain people, he says : yet consider their strength to be based upon the physical strength. No then what is the real strength ? Are all these other strength that we have, is it real ? Or what is the real strength of a human being ? And in that the poet says :’you my lord, you, divinity, you, that infinite one, you are my real strength.’ Dare to believe in that. Dare to rely on that. Dare to accept that. Dare ! dare to be able to say to yourself : it’s true, that’s the real strength, that’s the strength I want. Then I know I will be strong. Not so easy. And this is where I think so many people have trouble with the whole simplicity of what devotion means. Devotion is allowing yourself to feel that gratitude. Not sitting there going : I don’t know about that. I don’t know if I should allow myself to feel that. That’s too much. Allowing yourself to feel that love, allowing yourself to feel that sincerity in your life, allowing yourself to feel the jubilation, the excitement of being alive. The excitement that there is somebody, that can carry that unconditional and simple and beautiful love. What does that mean ? Too many words I think too complicated, but think about it. Do you know of a love that is unconditional ? In this world that would have to be very very rare. People say : well the affection that mother and child have, mmmmmm One day the child says to the mother : go away, you’re embarrassing me. And you’ll find the mother in tears, wasn’t quite ready for that. What does that mean ? So many things that we consider to be unconditional are indeed not unconditional. They have little conditions attached to them. But when the 2, the master, and the student, come together, then there is the possibility of an unconditional love. Yeah, at first, it has it’s basis just like anything else : you show me and I’ll love you back. I love you because you have given me k, I love you because you have given me something very beautiful. And deeper you get into this, the more you realize why is this person even doing this. When this person doesn’t know my name, this person doesn’t know who I am, but to accept me, to teach me .. You know, to teach from a book, to teach from a page, to teach from a script is easy. But to teach from heart is not so easy. No dilution by concepts. That’s real teaching. You won’t find that anywhere. Why ? Because everybody takes their thoughts, their concepts, there whatever they whatever they wanna teach, and insert a little bit of their concepts right through it. To be able to teach a person who has completely opposite beliefs. Long time ago in La Tierra .... (the he recalls that story of a prostitute coming to receive k, the instructor saying she shouldn’t receive k, and himself saying to the instructor : don’t sleep with her.) ..... So I have no reservations. To be in that place requires that you come from the heart. Not from here ...... come from the sincerest place ..... The more you get into it, the more interesting it becomes. All of a sudden it gets to that point: ‘Touch my heart. Let the teaching be the excuse, just touch my heart. Awaken me. Make me feel refreshed, make me feel alive, or whatever the excuse happens to be.’ I’ve seen that. People come. And pretty soon it doesn’t matter to them. If there is an event going on or not. They are there, their master is there, they’re just there, and that’s enough. Because all of a sudden awakening becomes greater in its own self, in it’s own right, than all the little things that have to go on. And to 3 days to loosen it, for 4 days to loosen it, for 5 days to let yourself go and it is no different for an aspirant, because also an aspirant gets to that point where k itself maybe just a formality. Whatever you give, I will accept..... That preparedness, that quality, that awareness, the other name for that is devotion. When all the scales are taken down, when there are no judgments .... When it isn’t : this means this and this means this and this means this. People live in that. Sometimes people are so trying to get their little worth going, like trying to start a fire : I have a fire going, and it’s very easy, you don’t have to do anything. You go in the morning and just throw some logs on, and have patience. And it’ll catch on fire automatically. Cause the coals are buried in there, and the ashes is the perfect insulent and finally the residual heat will dry the wood and it catches on fire. All you need to do is just : have patience. That’s if you had a good fire going last night. And if somebody saw me do that, they might go : my god, what is he doing, that’s not going to work. You know, it’s the same thing, with that example that I gave, when the master looked at the aspirant and said : ok, just stand there, be quiet, and I’ll give you knowledge ... (he again gives that story of the master using a bucket full of holes to take water from a well) We allow the doubt-maker to come in, looking at our worth, this means this thing, this means this thing, if my master is real, then my tire will re-inflate. Show me a sign, I wanna see a rainbow. Give me sign. No trust. No trust. Then where does it end up ? That’s not devotion, that’s the other side. To exist merely day to day, from idea to idea to idea. The thing about thoughts is : it doesn’t matter how great a thought you’re having, it’s still a thought. Some people may think : but how could this thought be bad ? This is a wonderful thought. Thought is thought. You’re still sitting on the vulnerable train, and all it has to do is shift. Maybe the thought is so great it mesmerizes you. Next thing you know it changes a little bit, and changes a little bit, and the next thing you know it’s got you where it wants you. Because when a person lives in that uncertainty, then that’s what’s going to happen. Do you realize what I’m talking about ? In devotion I am saying there is certainty. Not uncertainty. In knowledge, there is certainty. Any time you wanna see what uncertainty is, get 2 professionals together. I’ve seen that with doctors, specially with doctors. Get 2 of them together in the same room. And they’re both like : ‘I think he’s better than me’, and the other one is going :’ I think he’s better than me’. And they will both sit there and ridiculously agree to god know what ..... I’ve seen it with pilots Why ? Because there is a little bit to hide. There is always that little system in the airplane that you don’t completely know, and the other one might. Amazing. ..................... And I’ve seen that so many times. Because there is certainty. I’m talking about a world which is open. You think it is the other world that’s open. But it isn’t. It is the world inside that is open. Nothing to hide. No reluctance. Trusting. You begin when you can trust that certainty. You begin to get into that mode when you say: I like trusting. Because in this life, whatever you trust it’s going to sooner or later go ‘kick’. It’s a setup. I don’t know if you’ve ever seen a lure. (example of the lure to fish) That’s the trust that the world uses. Trust me. What remains ? Everything has to use that lure .... But the world inside, the world of k, the w of this devotion doesn’t need to do that. Imagine what it means for people to hear for the 1st time a message that has an incredibly profound effect in their life. No claims are being made. Something is being said. People hear it, and they want to hear more. Imagine that. What gets touched. What is the realm ? And the realm is the realm of world of knowledge. That what that devotion is: that world of knowledge. That world, that connection, that relationship between you and that master. When you begin to realize ‘Why is this person doing that ?’ Why ? One thing I have noticed from when they do aspirants selection, they gather peoples questions, and they also gather peoples comments. This is very interesting. (talks about when he does general meetings with all aspirants) .......... I started looking at the questions, and at the comments. From country to country, the questions vary. But the comments don’t. The comments remain the same. ‘I love this. This is beautiful. Thank you’ These are the comments. So I wonder what the dynamics of that is. Doesn’t matter the countries ......... (He makes jokes about aspirants questions, vegetarism, etc) .... But the comment : ‘I’m so thankful for what I’ve already been given.’ And you’ll get that in Taiwan, and you’ll get that in Malaysia, .... So what did you get given ? You got given a feeling, you got given a heart. Nobody can say : ‘this is what I have learned’. I have heard my father’s speeches many times, and I can’t say to you that I can write down in one statement : this is what I learned from his speeches. I can’t But I can tell you what I have felt from his speeches. That’s the difference. That I felt that joy. ............................. Everything in this world is based on threatening ....... (joke about nuns and the devil) ........................ Somebody is always there to take on that road. But when you come to world of knowledge, when you come to the world of this heart, there are no judgments...... So, this is not based on the consequences, this is not based on threatening. This is based on the heart. And when a human being feels that, then the heart delights....... I feel this is the truth. This is exactly what devotion is all about. Devotion cannot be forced upon somebody, devotion has to be felt. When the person gets to that stage in their life, I trust you so much, I will accept the gift you’ll give me, I don’t know what it is, I don’t care what it is, that’s not the point. It’s one of those things. If somebody sends you their ashtray. For birthday you open up a box, and sure enough it’s some Joe Blows ashtray. They just send you their ashtray. You might look at it saying, boy what a nut. On Winston Churchill on the other hand, he got so famous, that somebody sent me actually his ashtray. And I said : Wow, neat. I have Winston Churchill’s ashtray ! And I proceeded to put it in my safe. What I’m trying to say is that Winston Churchill got to a point where his ashtrays got cool, .... (example of toilets seat, etc. ...) The other day, I was watching auctions .... amazing, people were really into it ...... ............. Something gets to a certain level, and everything changes. And in the realm of that love, I guess it’s similar. When it get to that point : ‘I feel I can trust you so much’. I don’t know the gift you’re giving me, but I’ll take it, I accept because I trust you. Then that’s the world of devotion. Why is it there ? Because as k, it is most enjoyable. That’s why it’s there. It produces bliss. It produces that gratitude. And it is most enjoyable like all the fruits of this tree of this beautiful k, they’re all sweet and enjoyable. ....................... That is the person truly fortunate, who partakes of all of them. If it is the gift of service, to participate, then that is a gift too. And it’s on that tree. If it’s the gift of devotion, that fruit is on that tree too. And I know in the west there is a bad connotation with that fruit, and tree of k, and all that stuff believe me. I’m not talking about that. This is the Real Tree of Knowledge. And these are the beautiful fruits that have always be. Part take, and eat, and savor all of them. And if it is that tree of Darshan, of having that moment, then savor that too. Of course only if you want to. No nothing should be forced. Don’t get this thing to drag you through darshan line. That could be hell. Don’t. It will too. It’ll say : lets go see waht’s going on. And then right there it can kick you and turn you upside down. I’ve seen that. It’s ways are of confusion. It lives on confusion, it thrives on confusion, and anything to confuse. It doubts everything. So. This event continues, enjoy practice, but please just don’t practice anywhere (with the kangurus, don’t do monkey see, monkey do ...) ...................... Enjoy this gift, that’s all it’s all about. .................... Be allergic to confusion. Enjoy. Thank you very much, and good night. (Song : ‘everything was dark at first ..... and night time turned to day .... so rock me maharaji and roll me tonight ....)
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Date: Mon, Mar 2, 1998 at 11:56:23 (EST)
Poster: Mr Ex
Email:
To: Everyone
Subject: Maharaji, please teach me devotion
Message:
Listen guys, you haven’t learned anything yet ! 20 years of practice of meditation couldn’t take you anywhere. Knowledge is ONLY about DEVOTION. If you could only feel that simple thing, you wouldn’t be complaining, because it’s SO BEAUTIFUL. The tree is such a beautiful tree, and bares such beautiful fruits. Listen, and maybe you’ll find closure. My dear brothers and sisters, it was such a true pleasure to listen to that tape. In Amaroo, on november 19 1997, evening satsang, after 2 beautiful devotional songs, Maharaji spoke for one hour about the real feeling you can experience for your Master in the World of Konwledge. Please listen carefully. He even finally shed some light on what people have been calling ‘The tree of Knowledge’ for so long. Without true Knowledge of the Living Master, how could anybody understand this? Blessed are those who listen to him and really understang the true meaning on the true feeling of his message. Instrumental music (song ) : ‘oh my lord, I love you so my lord, and I know ....’ Daya sings : ‘If you want to wander and roam, go on, till you’re tired and you want to go home .... Maharaji has come to lead us along the path of perfection, he has come to make us feel why we’re alive, his love is pure and deeper that the ocean ..... and we’re asking please please please teach me devotion, maharaji please show me, I’m ready to start, I can see that your love is deeper than the ocean ....Teach us devotion! Come to my heart and let me feel love.’ This evening, I think that’s a very appropriate topic to talk about : devotion. Because what does it mean ? devotion cannot be analyzed. Devotion cannot be explained away. But it is something that is felt. When there is a connection, when there is an understanding, that when it comes together, that when it becomes complete. Because in this life, we will have many relationships. There is the father, the mother, the uncle ..... And we look and we have these connections. And I’ve seen it many times : family get together, every member of the family comes, and somebody brings the pie, and somebody brings ... all the unhealthy things you can possibly imagine. I guess there is a message in there somewhere, hurry up. .............. all those things that people do. I remember somebody once said to me: ’you are my uncle’. And I said: ’no I’m not. Please I’m not your uncle’. Because I need my relations to be very straight. And I want the relationship of the heart, and I want to depend on that. I want to depend on the beauty inside, I wanna depend upon that experience. (Here Maharaji obviously states once more he is no regular human being. He is not his nephew’s uncle ....) And maybe in a way it’s kind of odd, because my father is not physically alive, my relationship has always been greater that the one I have seen is the one that master and student. And I wanna depend on that. And I remember many times my father, Shri Maharaji he would talk about his master. And it was so beautiful. Cause his master wasn’t around then. Because he had so much love, so much admiration, and to put it in few words, or just one word : it would be that devotion. And that admiration was not fake. And when he would talk about his master, he would talk about this one couplet ‘that I was being swept in the river, and then my master extended his hand out, and caught me’. And then he gave me lamp, he gave me this knowledge, and then even in the darkness I could see. And what was impossible to happen in lifetimes, happened instantly. Sometimes we forget what it means this river. What river exactly is been talked about. Believe me it’s not the Brisbane river, but it’s the river of exactly those things we’ve been talking about earlier, the doubts, the confusion, because it comes, the certainties that we want, and yet we are faced with the uncertainty. In this life, we have our ideas of what we mean to be progressive, we have our ideas of what it means to have graduated from the school of hard knocks. The school of hard knocks basically means you had to learn everything the hard way in this life. And so to us all of a sudden maybe it becomes I have achieved something. When a human being loses their own sense of existence, when a human being loses that sense of being alive, then they have to weigh their existence by other things. It’s like currency. If it’s a gold standard it’s weighed by gold. But then if it’s not attached to any gold standard, it sits there and it’s weighed by something else. Whatever happens to be. Whatever the stock market decides, .... When a human being loses their real sense of worth, and when a person is satisfied that being alive is the most important thing, is the greatest thing, then they look at their life and they feel a sense of worth. But when in confusion and in ideas that sense of worth is taken away, now, to replace that sense of worth we measure our worth by what we have achieved, by what we have, by what we could be ... I remember, I knew of a guy, sometimes he’d come around and he would talk he could have been this, and he could have been that, he was almost this and he was almost that. I got so sick and tired of the guy that I said ‘make sure this guy doesn’t come here anymore’. I can’t stand the could be’s. Of what we could have been. I almost had that. I almost could be that. And then we go shopping for what it is that could give us our worth back, our sense back. So then somebody says in a very beautiful way, that what we consider to be our strength .... Some people : ‘I am so and so’. And then some people consider their strength : I have achieved such and such things in my life. Certain people, he says : yet consider their strength to be based upon the physical strength. No then what is the real strength ? Are all these other strength that we have, is it real ? Or what is the real strength of a human being ? And in that the poet says :’you my lord, you, divinity, you, that infinite one, you are my real strength.’ Dare to believe in that. Dare to rely on that. Dare to accept that. Dare ! dare to be able to say to yourself : it’s true, that’s the real strength, that’s the strength I want. Then I know I will be strong. Not so easy. And this is where I think so many people have trouble with the whole simplicity of what devotion means. Devotion is allowing yourself to feel that gratitude. Not sitting there going : I don’t know about that. I don’t know if I should allow myself to feel that. That’s too much. Allowing yourself to feel that love, allowing yourself to feel that sincerity in your life, allowing yourself to feel the jubilation, the excitement of being alive. The excitement that there is somebody, that can carry that unconditional and simple and beautiful love. What does that mean ? Too many words I think too complicated, but think about it. Do you know of a love that is unconditional ? In this world that would have to be very very rare. People say : well the affection that mother and child have, mmmmmm One day the child says to the mother : go away, you’re embarrassing me. And you’ll find the mother in tears, wasn’t quite ready for that. What does that mean ? So many things that we consider to be unconditional are indeed not unconditional. They have little conditions attached to them. But when the 2, the master, and the student, come together, then there is the possibility of an unconditional love. Yeah, at first, it has it’s basis just like anything else : you show me and I’ll love you back. I love you because you have given me k, I love you because you have given me something very beautiful. And deeper you get into this, the more you realize why is this person even doing this. When this person doesn’t know my name, this person doesn’t know who I am, but to accept me, to teach me .. You know, to teach from a book, to teach from a page, to teach from a script is easy. But to teach from heart is not so easy. No dilution by concepts. That’s real teaching. You won’t find that anywhere. Why ? Because everybody takes their thoughts, their concepts, there whatever they whatever they wanna teach, and insert a little bit of their concepts right through it. To be able to teach a person who has completely opposite beliefs. Long time ago in La Tierra .... (the he recalls that story of a prostitute coming to receive k, the instructor saying she shouldn’t receive k, and himself saying to the instructor : don’t sleep with her.) ..... So I have no reservations. To be in that place requires that you come from the heart. Not from here ...... come from the sincerest place ..... The more you get into it, the more interesting it becomes. All of a sudden it gets to that point: ‘Touch my heart. Let the teaching be the excuse, just touch my heart. Awaken me. Make me feel refreshed, make me feel alive, or whatever the excuse happens to be.’ I’ve seen that. People come. And pretty soon it doesn’t matter to them. If there is an event going on or not. They are there, their master is there, they’re just there, and that’s enough. Because all of a sudden awakening becomes greater in its own self, in it’s own right, than all the little things that have to go on. And to 3 days to loosen it, for 4 days to loosen it, for 5 days to let yourself go and it is no different for an aspirant, because also an aspirant gets to that point where k itself maybe just a formality. Whatever you give, I will accept..... That preparedness, that quality, that awareness, the other name for that is devotion. When all the scales are taken down, when there are no judgments .... When it isn’t : this means this and this means this and this means this. People live in that. Sometimes people are so trying to get their little worth going, like trying to start a fire : I have a fire going, and it’s very easy, you don’t have to do anything. You go in the morning and just throw some logs on, and have patience. And it’ll catch on fire automatically. Cause the coals are buried in there, and the ashes is the perfect insulent and finally the residual heat will dry the wood and it catches on fire. All you need to do is just : have patience. That’s if you had a good fire going last night. And if somebody saw me do that, they might go : my god, what is he doing, that’s not going to work. You know, it’s the same thing, with that example that I gave, when the master looked at the aspirant and said : ok, just stand there, be quiet, and I’ll give you knowledge ... (he again gives that story of the master using a bucket full of holes to take water from a well) We allow the doubt-maker to come in, looking at our worth, this means this thing, this means this thing, if my master is real, then my tire will re-inflate. Show me a sign, I wanna see a rainbow. Give me sign. No trust. No trust. Then where does it end up ? That’s not devotion, that’s the other side. To exist merely day to day, from idea to idea to idea. The thing about thoughts is : it doesn’t matter how great a thought you’re having, it’s still a thought. Some people may think : but how could this thought be bad ? This is a wonderful thought. Thought is thought. You’re still sitting on the vulnerable train, and all it has to do is shift. Maybe the thought is so great it mesmerizes you. Next thing you know it changes a little bit, and changes a little bit, and the next thing you know it’s got you where it wants you. Because when a person lives in that uncertainty, then that’s what’s going to happen. Do you realize what I’m talking about ? In devotion I am saying there is certainty. Not uncertainty. In knowledge, there is certainty. Any time you wanna see what uncertainty is, get 2 professionals together. I’ve seen that with doctors, specially with doctors. Get 2 of them together in the same room. And they’re both like : ‘I think he’s better than me’, and the other one is going :’ I think he’s better than me’. And they will both sit there and ridiculously agree to god know what ..... I’ve seen it with pilots Why ? Because there is a little bit to hide. There is always that little system in the airplane that you don’t completely know, and the other one might. Amazing. ..................... And I’ve seen that so many times. Because there is certainty. I’m talking about a world which is open. You think it is the other world that’s open. But it isn’t. It is the world inside that is open. Nothing to hide. No reluctance. Trusting. You begin when you can trust that certainty. You begin to get into that mode when you say: I like trusting. Because in this life, whatever you trust it’s going to sooner or later go ‘kick’. It’s a setup. I don’t know if you’ve ever seen a lure. (example of the lure to fish) That’s the trust that the world uses. Trust me. What remains ? Everything has to use that lure .... But the world inside, the world of k, the w of this devotion doesn’t need to do that. Imagine what it means for people to hear for the 1st time a message that has an incredibly profound effect in their life. No claims are being made. Something is being said. People hear it, and they want to hear more. Imagine that. What gets touched. What is the realm ? And the realm is the realm of world of knowledge. That what that devotion is: that world of knowledge. That world, that connection, that relationship between you and that master. When you begin to realize ‘Why is this person doing that ?’ Why ? One thing I have noticed from when they do aspirants selection, they gather peoples questions, and they also gather peoples comments. This is very interesting. (talks about when he does general meetings with all aspirants) .......... I started looking at the questions, and at the comments. From country to country, the questions vary. But the comments don’t. The comments remain the same. ‘I love this. This is beautiful. Thank you’ These are the comments. So I wonder what the dynamics of that is. Doesn’t matter the countries ......... (He makes jokes about aspirants questions, vegetarism, etc) .... But the comment : ‘I’m so thankful for what I’ve already been given.’ And you’ll get that in Taiwan, and you’ll get that in Malaysia, .... So what did you get given ? You got given a feeling, you got given a heart. Nobody can say : ‘this is what I have learned’. I have heard my father’s speeches many times, and I can’t say to you that I can write down in one statement : this is what I learned from his speeches. I can’t But I can tell you what I have felt from his speeches. That’s the difference. That I felt that joy. ............................. Everything in this world is based on threatening ....... (joke about nuns and the devil) ........................ Somebody is always there to take on that road. But when you come to world of knowledge, when you come to the world of this heart, there are no judgments...... So, this is not based on the consequences, this is not based on threatening. This is based on the heart. And when a human being feels that, then the heart delights....... I feel this is the truth. This is exactly what devotion is all about. Devotion cannot be forced upon somebody, devotion has to be felt. When the person gets to that stage in their life, I trust you so much, I will accept the gift you’ll give me, I don’t know what it is, I don’t care what it is, that’s not the point. It’s one of those things. If somebody sends you their ashtray. For birthday you open up a box, and sure enough it’s some Joe Blows ashtray. They just send you their ashtray. You might look at it saying, boy what a nut. On Winston Churchill on the other hand, he got so famous, that somebody sent me actually his ashtray. And I said : Wow, neat. I have Winston Churchill’s ashtray ! And I proceeded to put it in my safe. What I’m trying to say is that Winston Churchill got to a point where his ashtrays got cool, .... (example of toilets seat, etc. ...) The other day, I was watching auctions .... amazing, people were really into it ...... ............. Something gets to a certain level, and everything changes. And in the realm of that love, I guess it’s similar. When it get to that point : ‘I feel I can trust you so much’. I don’t know the gift you’re giving me, but I’ll take it, I accept because I trust you. Then that’s the world of devotion. Why is it there ? Because as k, it is most enjoyable. That’s why it’s there. It produces bliss. It produces that gratitude. And it is most enjoyable like all the fruits of this tree of this beautiful k, they’re all sweet and enjoyable. ....................... That is the person truly fortunate, who partakes of all of them. If it is the gift of service, to participate, then that is a gift too. And it’s on that tree. If it’s the gift of devotion, that fruit is on that tree too. And I know in the west there is a bad connotation with that fruit, and tree of k, and all that stuff believe me. I’m not talking about that. This is the Real Tree of Knowledge. And these are the beautiful fruits that have always be. Part take, and eat, and savor all of them. And if it is that tree of Darshan, of having that moment, then savor that too. Of course only if you want to. No nothing should be forced. Don’t get this thing to drag you through darshan line. That could be hell. Don’t. It will too. It’ll say : lets go see waht’s going on. And then right there it can kick you and turn you upside down. I’ve seen that. It’s ways are of confusion. It lives on confusion, it thrives on confusion, and anything to confuse. It doubts everything. So. This event continues, enjoy practice, but please just don’t practice anywhere (with the kangurus, don’t do monkey see, monkey do ...) ...................... Enjoy this gift, that’s all it’s all about. .................... Be allergic to confusion. Enjoy. Thank you very much, and good night. (Song : ‘everything was dark at first ..... and night time turned to day .... so rock me maharaji and roll me tonight ....)
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Date: Mon, Mar 2, 1998 at 14:51:55 (EST)
Poster: wiil ber
Email: **
To: Mr Ex
Subject: nice one x-man (Re: Maharaji, please teach me devotion)
Message:
Hooray for x-man. good work there is lots to say about that for sure. But for right now I will let the others do it but let me add my two cents here on the uncle issue. He said the uncle quote at least once before and that was in uraguay 96. He is talking about Navlata, who is really his daughter. By his brothers wife. He is not the uncle, he is the dad. She is not aware yet but he finds it easy to make the 'I'm not your uncle' comment for this reason. Of course he explains the comment some other way this time. Some other slam against family life. Discounting the closeness between people as unspiritual and a distraction from devotion to the pretend god. Hurtling back through time we are again in a big devotional era.
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Date: Mon, Mar 2, 1998 at 16:26:09 (EST)
Poster: Joy
Email: Bluebirdd@aol.com
To: Mr Ex
Subject: Re: Maharaji, please teach me devotion
Message:
Mr. Ex, what a wonderful "service" (in the true sense of the word) you have done for us all in transcribing this talk! It's amazing to see how he's still spinning the same old yarn in the same old way. You are also to be commended if you didn't throw up during the transcribing process! I was the official transcriber of M's satsangs in 1979 when I was at SHIP in Malibu, and know how intimate an experience it can be. Thanks again for a fabulous effort, and helping people see what M is REALLY talking about when he gets down to it, and how inane and insipid his speeches are. The guy really doesn't have a very good command of the English language, does he? When I used to transcribe, it was a constant struggle to put it into some form of readable English yet remain true to the grunts and "you knows" and improper grammar which constituted most of it (it was the editor's job to edit that out, I had to type it out exactly as he said it, which was not easy).
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Date: Mon, Mar 2, 1998 at 16:56:31 (EST)
Poster: The Enquirer
Email:
To: wiil ber
Subject: Re: nice one x-man (Re: Maharaji, please teach me devotion)
Message:
"He is talking about Navlata, who is really his daughter. By his brothers wife. He is not the uncle, he is the dad. She is not aware yet" Someone, please confirm this juicy bit of gossip. Thanks.
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Date: Mon, Mar 2, 1998 at 17:02:36 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: Mr Ex
Subject: Re: Maharaji, please teach me devotion
Message:
This is truly amazing. This "satsang" could be the same one he gave on Christmas Day in 1979 that I quoted previously. It's so blatant in his statements about how devotion is what it's all about. I guess you can see why he's so into it. Without devotion, he's just a meditation teacher and people might go their own way and forget him. He needs to hold out devotion as the tool. I also think a couple of other things are clear from this. 1. He made it explicitly clear that when he uses the more relatable term "gratitude" when he speaks in the States and other places, it's just a code word for "devotion." They are really the same thing, he is just trying to use a word that has more PR value. [OP and others, you're distinctions about devotion and gratitude appear to be full of crap.] 2. Maybe Mr. Ex can add more to this, but it seems like Maharaji had to go to the remote wilds of the Australian outback to speak like this (devotion, etc.) and to hold a darshan line. It appears that only the die-hard devotees would journey to Australia and hence he can speak to them like this. I listened to his satsang from Long Beach in 1996 and he did not mention the word "devotion" even once, although he used the term "gratitude" quite a lot. I also note that he hasn't done darshan in the States or Europe in quite a long time, but I would bet dollars to donuts it won't be too long before it happens. The old Guru Maharaj Ji appears to be returning. Devotion, surrender and lose yourself in the guru. Can the ashrams be far behind? Dust off those altars, pictures, charnamarit pitchers and arti trays! 3. He really IS offering a Hindi religious trip, as the basis for what he is about, with him as the object of devotion, of course. I know anon and others have mentioned that, but this satsang makes it abundantly clear of this. 4. I guess I ask the question again. If he so much believes that devotion to him is most wonderful experience there is, how come this devotion stuff, and also the darshan stuff isn't mentioned by him at an introductory program to potentially interested people, and instead he just talks about "that beautiful place?" Why does he hide it? Why can't he just be honest about it instead of pretending he is some sort of glorified meditation teacher?
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Date: Tues, Mar 3, 1998 at 09:11:53 (EST)
Poster: John K.
Email:
To: Mr Ex
Subject: Re: Maharaji, please teach me devotion
Message:
M says in the speech transcribed above: "I remember somebody once said to me: ’you are my uncle’. And I said: ’no I’m not. "Please I’m not your uncle’. Because I need my relations to be very straight. And I want the relationship of the heart, and I want to depend on that. I want to depend on the beauty inside, I wanna depend upon that experience." This is a very wierd comment. This certainly appears to be a statement that only a bona fide A numero uno ass hole could make. Forget the effect on the neice(sp?) or nephew for the moment, who knows what age they are or even if they care that M is their uncle. What in the world does being a friend or uncle or brother or sister have to do with having or not having or not depending on the 'relationship of the heart'? Doesn't it sound like he is saying his connection is soooo fragile that he cannot afford for a moment to give any affection anywhere else in the world? What a selfish frightened individual! "Oh, child, don't come near me, don't distract me from my 'relationship of the heart'." It is truly wierd beyond words. Further justification for the premies to all ignore their friends and family.
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Date: Tues, Mar 3, 1998 at 11:11:17 (EST)
Poster: Rick
Email: rtaraday@hotmail.com
To: John K.
Subject: Re: Maharaji, please teach me devotion
Message:
That got a laugh out of me. Well put. Definitely the statement of a bona fide A numero uno ass hole.
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Date: Tues, Mar 3, 1998 at 12:12:47 (EST)
Poster: John Cavad
Email:
To: Rick
Subject: Re: Maharaji, please teach me devotion
Message:
That's all interesting, but is he really the father?
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Date: Wed, Mar 4, 1998 at 01:25:18 (EST)
Poster: Something for
Email: **
To: wiil ber
Subject: Fuzzbee (Re: Maharaji, please teach me devotion)
Message:
Fuzzbee Morse would like me to say that I just heard that gossip about Navlata. OK I just heard that gossip in the very early eighties at Raja Ji's house at the door of Raja Ji's bedroom by someone who told me something else also.
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Date: Mon, Mar 2, 1998 at 06:01:40 (EST)
Poster: CHR
Email:
To: Everyone
Subject: Maharaji then and now
Message:
Hello everyome, I hope this gets through.I've been watching this site for many months now and I've finally decided to try and add my 2 cents to it all.I've a few questions about some of the things I've read-but first a bit of background.I'm Australian-initiated by Padarthanand in 73-lived in the ashram much of this time 'til 82-did some service around M(security at residences,in darshan rooms,at airports for the plane,backstage etc)-lived in U.S. 78-79-went to most festivals from 77 to 80(and you US premies reckon you had it bad.Try going to a festival every couple of months from Australia).I consciously made a decision to leave M in 1987. I have discussed many issues with friends who have also left-one was a longtime initiator/instructor.I went to aprogram at amaroo in 91 but couldn't relate to it.A group of us also went to a program and K review held by M in Sydney in 95-it was very strange and surprisingly flat. Like many many people ,I found my spiritual experience far deeper and more profound when I left M.Rediscovering aspects of myself that I had denied or suppressed for so long,was both exciting and painful.Owning some of my behaviour as a premie has been interesting-I cringe now at some of the things I said and did. The claims re Jagdeo-are they valid? I had a fair bit to do with him-he spent most of his time watching tv or playing tennis.M's drinking?I was certainly aware of some drinking/parties in the 70s.I went to a "dinner party "in Melbourne and Sydney, in 86 I think.M drank a champagne toast with us.The MC told dirty jokes and it was really quite bizarre. On a broader level I am still trying to get a handle on how and why M affected us so strongly . I mean we're still affected years later.As somebody said, it eventually got to us on a cellular level.When I first heard M speak' I thought he was childish and cras-and yet a few months later found myself pleading for K.What is disturbing is the almost insidious way that the rules of the game changed.When I received K, it was supposedly the experience that counted-God within etc.Gradually this was replaced with the all importance of M,to the extent that we were told that the only thing that mattered was our devotion to M.Do you remember the ashram satsang at HJ79 where he said,"Give me all your love,every aspect of it."God knows, many of us tried.The whole thing made us very one-dimensional and left no room at all for our own growth. Yet,he couldn't have done it without us cheering our bhole shris and oour adulation and I suspect ,our need for some sort of messiah figure. Any ideas on this? As premies we pushed a lot under the carpet.There is also the danger of doing that now.I had some wonderful experiences with K and some experiences in darshan that can't just be explained away as hype or over emotionalism.I can't just dismiss M as an oppunistic fraud-that's too easy.There are obviously elements of that in there,but it's mixed in with other stuff too.
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Date: Mon, Mar 2, 1998 at 08:01:52 (EST)
Poster: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: CHR
Subject: Re: Maharaji then and now
Message:
What is disturbing is the almost insidious way that the rules of the game changed. When I received K, it was supposedly the experience that counted-God within etc. Gradually this was replaced with the all importance of M,to the extent that we were told that the only thing that mattered was our devotion to M. Do you remember the ashram satsang at HJ79 where he said,'Give me all your love,every aspect of it.'God knows, many of us tried. The whole thing made us very one-dimensional and left no room at all for our own growth. That's still present in the aspirant process, as they are danced slowly to the bed of devotion. I remember many points where what I was hearing from MJ just didn't ring true inside of me. Eventually, I had to put distance between myself and what I still believed - You definitely have to have gone through the cult wringer to understand that statement... Yet,he couldn't have done it without us cheering our bhole shris and our adulation and I suspect, our need for some sort of messiah figure. Any ideas on this? As premies we pushed a lot under the carpet. There is also the danger of doing that now. I had some wonderful experiences with K and some experiences in darshan that can't just be explained away as hype or over emotionalism. I can't just dismiss M as an opportunistic fraud - that's too easy. There are obviously elements of that in there, but it's mixed in with other stuff too. The easiest way to warn people away from MJ is to simplify and sum up the experience of master/devotee. Obviously there are a lot of dynamics involved in the relationship. Same with abusive marriages, but warning that 'He's a hitter' cuts right to the chorus. While you will probably want to look at a lot of sides of the questions now that they are in the past, the whole thing is only presented as being complex to those who are still walking into it. 'Take another step and it will become clearer', 'Take one more step', etc. But 'It's a cult, and MJ's a fraud' saves aspirants from having to untie the sort of mental knots afterwards that we now wrestle with. Many abused people stay in damaging situations because 'He's not always like that... '.
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Date: Mon, Mar 2, 1998 at 08:13:33 (EST)
Poster: will
Email: bb
To: CHR
Subject: to chr (claudia h rawat?) (Re: Maharaji then and now)
Message:
Things seemed 'real' and unexplainably beyond to many groups that were told to revere their leader. The power of belief is quite strong. I have some local christian friends that say 'god told me this' as casually as can be. And they do this with some regularity. I was at the home of another hindu meditation based (breath and other things) group and they all virtually worshipped the leader as a godhead. He finally turned out to be a regular human and the followers were left with trying to understand thier wasted lives and thier divine experiences. I personally think focus on the breath ( like smokers do), gives something but it is not because of someone else of course. Programming and beliefs are strong stuff and group idolitry over some many months really does a number on you. Look at the reaction movie stars get when people meet them. A wave of gushing adoration and slavish worship. We were young he was insane, the breath IS real and his insidious hindu trip was so heavy that in our sincerety the real creative power god probabaly had some kindness on us and helped us out at times during that whole ordeal. Any true experience can reasonably be separated from the prem rawat safely and surely.
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Date: Mon, Mar 2, 1998 at 10:06:47 (EST)
Poster: Rick
Email: rtaraday@hotmail.com
To: CHR
Subject: Re: Maharaji then and now
Message:
Welcome, CHR. I can relate to your reluctancy to dismiss maharaji as an opportunistic fraud, and our experiences as completely delusional. If maharaji had been sufficiently opportunistic he'd be much richer today. To be truthful, I still don't understand some of the experiences I had; they didn't measure up to maharaji's promises and my life was more of a mess than before I got involved. But some of the highs were extraordinary. When I see quotes of maharaji's old satsangs, I'm amazed at the stupidity and can't remember how I could have been so entranced. I used to see other non-premies at programs, in the old days, who were totally unaffected by his presence. But it's hard to imagine that he had no charisma and that I was just being duped. I couldn't stomach going back to try to sus it all out now. Maybe I don't want to believe I could've been such a fool. It's impossible for me to take a stand on maharaji's drinking and motives, or jagdeo's child-abuse. Alot of it seems plausible but I really don't know. I spent so much time jumping to conclusions for the sake of comfort when I was a premie, that I'm satisfied now to just know the things I've had the benefit to experience with proof... Knowledge wasn't really knowledge, it was a moment here and there. Although it was extraordinary, it did nothing to solve any of life's problems. The instructions that came from maharaji were terrible, misleading, and incomplete. I made many stupid decisions as a result of following them. The situation is complex, and although it might help to simplify it for aspirants, I spent too much time as a premie doing that for the benefit of getting them interested in knowledge. I don't want to do that now for the benefit of getting them disinterested. Somehow I figure it's better to just tell the whole truth and let people do what they will. If the whole truth had been told to me, I probably would never have gotten involved. If people had simplified it to dissuade me it probably would've backfired anyway.
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Date: Mon, Mar 2, 1998 at 10:32:03 (EST)
Poster: will bur
Email: **
To: Rick
Subject: mother of god (Re: Maharaji then and now)
Message:
My mother just called from north palm beach and she is going to tampa with a friend to see the 'apparition' of the virgin mary that appeared somewhere. Those type of things have shown up plenty of places. Walls, oil stains on floors, ect. I wonder if Mata Ji will ever start this type of stuff. In western conn. a grocery store found a potatoe that looked like elvis. I saw it (some months later). At that point the owner was willing to say it was a joke. She got calls all the way from Japan about this tuber. So anyway, some disgruntled nonbeliever (catholic probably) poured acid on the dang tampa 'apparition' and later it rained and (will miracles never cease) the apparition looks even better. Maybe she will have a divine experience there in front of the mother of god stain. Lord knows I told her where she could see the real lord enough times. Bill Patterson was so devoted he actually prevailed on his mom and she became one of those rare 'mother of premie, premie' that was there for all of us to see that it WAS possible to bring your family to the lotus feet. Someone broughrt my wife some vidoes and one is the now deceased John Denver in concert. The crowd is going wild with grateful adoration at the song he just played. It was not one of his good one's I might add. But that doesn't seem to matter. The hero is there, you are there, the magic is happening and you have been listening to the tapes and albums for years and now oh my god it's really him in person. Now it's a sing along. The crowd is really haveing an experience now. Hmmm sounds a little like dance dance dance.
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Date: Mon, Mar 2, 1998 at 11:02:57 (EST)
Poster: John K.
Email: kreilkamp@mindspring.com
To: CHR
Subject: Re: Maharaji then and now
Message:
CHR: My latest 'realization' or my latest way of looking at things is that spiritual experiences are forces of nature. People have believed throughout history and many still do believe that forces of nature affect people as punishments or rewards. We had a hurricane a few years back and many homes were destroyed and many homes were spared. I knew people who attributed their home being spared to Jesus. We tend to personalize forces of nature to being related to our good or bad behavior. In my humble opinion that is pure hogwash. It's absurd to think that nature is either rewarding you or punishing you. So I now have come to see spiritual experiences the same way. They are forces of nature. I have had many unbelievable and indescribeable spiritual experiences. They started long before I met the guru, and they have continued after I left the guru. I still don't know what they mean. I do know what they don't mean. They do not mean that I am 'enlightened' or that I am a 'sincere seeker of truth' or that I am a good person. Spiritual experiences flow through human beings in varying degrees regardless of their efforts. I have tried to understand them and tried to control them, but all those efforts have been useless. They still come and go as they please and are unpredictable. I do know that life is much simpler without the guru. The guru never gave me any understanding of those spiritual experiences. All he ever seemed to say, and probably all he says to this day is that 'there's a beautiful feeling inside'. All I can say is there is more to being human than simply feeling a peaceful feeling inside. AND, it's highly unrealistic and absurd to imagine that this peaceful feeling can be felt constantly. Yet, guru's teachings at least when I followed him, were to meditate constantly. Anyway, that's all I have time for now. Welcome CHR to the site! I hope you find it beneficial.
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Date: Mon, Mar 2, 1998 at 11:27:11 (EST)
Poster: I saw Jesus
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: will bur
Subject: on my bathroom wall (Re: Maharaji then and now)
Message:
It's true. There I was sitting on the toilet and there was the face of Jesus staring back at me. He looked very compassionate and understanding. That type of wall plastering does create some interesting effects. Hope your Mum has a good experience, sincerely I do. She's just as close to it as Diver Dan or A Premie.
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Date: Mon, Mar 2, 1998 at 12:06:44 (EST)
Poster: Ray
Email:
To: Brian
Subject: Re: Maharaji then and now
Message:
Brian I reciece the K in about 1974 and was ready never expose mj scince, now because of the internet I am able to find things on MJ. Because I haven't heard anything negitive about the guru. I have always had the k to turn to. I don't like to be too devoted to a man and not God. But the K is very powerful and real you have experience it. Do thing the M is caught up in vanity?
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Date: Mon, Mar 2, 1998 at 13:11:03 (EST)
Poster: Sir Dave
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: Ray
Subject: Re: Maharaji then and now
Message:
Excuse me butting in here Ray but it's good to read what you've written here. You're not by any chance the Ray that I know are you? You know, the Ray who bought my tent for the special offer price of 15 pounds to go to Rome? If so, have you managed to plug the leaks in it yet?
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Date: Mon, Mar 2, 1998 at 13:53:56 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: CHR
Subject: Re: Maharaji then and now
Message:
Welcome, CHR and thanks for your thoughtful post. Probably if you read what I've had to say over the past months, I likely come accross as someone who thinks my time as a premie was absolutely wasted. Well, I don't think that's true. I do believe that, on balance, the costs where much, much higher than any of the benefits, and I agree with John that the "good" experiences I had while a premie had more to do with myself, and the other premies, than it had to do with Guru Maharaj Ji, much as I believed I loved him more than anything or anyone. And really, the worst cost, was exactly what you said -- the squeezing out of any opportunity for personal growth. That's really what made those years following him so costly. The stagnated, entrenched, rigid, sort of life that I lived, and the constant repression of my own values and better judgment as the evil "mind" and "doubts" that Maharaji talked about constantly. And Maharaji said and did absolutely everything to keep us rivited to him, including scaring us about what would happen if we left. I do hold him responsible for that. And after I left, it was kind of vague to me whether it was overall a positive or negative life. I mean, I knew I wanted to leave it, and never wanted to come back, but it took years before I realized that what I experienced, all the good stuff, was due to my own faith, and my own desire to want to believe in him so badly that created the previously "unexplainable" experiences I had in meditation, in darshan, at programs (also due to the "group high" syndrome). Faith is so much more powerful than I ever thought it could be. When I stopped having faith in him, I had no positive experience whatsoever, despite being in his presence, at darshan, etc. It was like a scientific experiment for me. No faith, no experience. He began to appear as what I think he really is, just a human being in a very bizarre situation and who has a very bizarre notion of who he is, constantly reinforced by thousands of his devotees. And I can't really say what snapped me out of it. But, I'm glad it happened, although, especially at the beginning, it was very hard. But life is so, so much better being away from him than it ever was while I followed him, in so many ways. And I agree that M isn't into it entirely for the money, although at times I really believe that is his major motivation. It is more complicated that just that. I think he does it also to retain his image of himself. He needs devotees to feel like he's the perfect master. And I think on some level he really does believe he is trying to help people and that he is some sort of god. But I also think there are times he knows that isn't really true. He was raised in an entirely bizarre fashion. In a way probably none of us can even imagine. He's bound to be a bundle of contradictions and conflicts. Hence, I'm not surprised he drinks. But I do think he's a fraud in the sense that he isn't what he portrayed himself to be, and, at least at some point, I believe he knew it and played along to keep the trip going. But I don't believe he set out to deceive people in the first place. In fact, I think he might have been, at one time, as much a victim as many of us were. But now that he's 40, he surely knows better. I think a lot of us would feel better about him, and about our having loved him so much, if he would come clean and take some responsibility for that. But, to my knowledge, he never has. Actually, Maharaji's drinking problem is something I never cared all that much about. Lots of people have drinking problems. But I have heard it so many times from people who were around Maharaji, including a woman who was his personal lawyer, and a personal friend of mine, that I do believe it to be true. Cognac is supposedly the drug of choice, imported and very expensive French cognac, of course. Jagdeo's pedophilia has been reported by a couple of women who were molested by him in Miami when they were little girls. I also believe this to be true, but, obviously, I never observed any of this, but I am confident of the veracity of the testimony of these people. Thanks again for your post.
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Date: Mon, Mar 2, 1998 at 15:00:56 (EST)
Poster: Joy
Email: Bluebirdd@aol.com
To: CHR
Subject: Re: Maharaji then and now
Message:
Welcome CHR, and thanks for your heart-felt post. Boy, can I sympathize with you, trying to get to programs all the way from Australia -- that must have been SO frustrating. And how ironic that now you're not interested it's all in your own backyard. I know what you mean about dismissing Maharaji and the whole experience as a fraud not quite feeling right. It's incredibly difficult to admit we may have been wrong, particularly when it involved such a long period of our lives and such all-encompassing experiences. By saying it was all wrong we invalidate what felt at the time to be genuine and real experiences and thus are saying our own intuition, which guided us there at the time, is not trustworthy. But I prefer to think of it like an old love affair, or interest in a cultural phenomena like, say, the Beatles, or something: it was sure fun at the time, but seems ridiculously quaint in retrospect. I have no doubt that I was having an incredibly intense and powerful experience when I screamed at Paul McCartney, but now that I look at it from today's vantage point, how ridiculous! But I certainly wouldn't want to have missed the experience just because I now see it as silly. It's all part of who I am and the growing up process. I try not to use "black and white" thinking, i.e. this was ALL bad and now I see it ALL clearly, etc. It was what it was at the time, and now it is time to move on and take whatever we have learned from the whole thing and try and incorporate it into who we are today. I hope this is making sense. It's something I've thought about a lot myself, how to integrate the whole experience while at the same time seeing it as false. (And of course, it doesn't stop me trashing Maharaji to high heaven on this site!)
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Date: Mon, Mar 2, 1998 at 23:56:38 (EST)
Poster: Wheel burr
Email: **
To: I saw Jesus
Subject: Lord in the can (Re: Maharaji then and now)
Message:
Do you remember all the pictures of maharaji in the bathrooms everywhere? At the various local halls you would be at the urinal and as you pee maharji is one foot away straight ahead. pooping too. No privacy whatsoever. Instructors would come through and cut up the magazines and put pictures all over the place.
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Date: Tues, Mar 3, 1998 at 01:31:38 (EST)
Poster: Straining at the feet
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: Wheel burr
Subject: of the master (Re: Maharaji then and now)
Message:
Some of that ashram food was hard to eliminate and many are the memories I have of straining on the toilet with Maharaji's picture grinning down at me.
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Date: Tues, Mar 3, 1998 at 02:27:32 (EST)
Poster: John Cavad
Email: johncavad@yahoo.com
To: CHR
Subject: Re: Maharaji then and now
Message:
Hi, CHR. I'll only add this. It takes time to detach, truly detach yourself from GMJ. Unless you go for the route of intense pyshotherapy, it does take much time. For me, it took three years to PHYSICALLY pull out (1980 - 1983), then 14 years to MENTALLY & EMOTIONALLY let go, think about what really happened during my eight years as a premie. Still I wasn't completely detached. After finding this web site in 1997, reading everything I could on it; reading/studying books like The Guru Papers; asking questions to fellow ex-premies; getting invloved; writing about it...did I actually denounce GMJ and completely let go of him and his bullshit. And man, does it feel good to be completely free from his shackles of bullshit. Of course, there were great times, great experiences, and fun. But the price we paid for all that outweighed the benefits by far. It takes time...work with this site...you'll see.
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Date: Tues, Mar 3, 1998 at 02:37:14 (EST)
Poster: John Cavad
Email:
To: Joy
Subject: Re: Maharaji then and now
Message:
Joy said, "But I prefer to think of it like an old love affair, or interest in a cultural phenomena like, say, the Beatles, or something: it was sure fun at the time, but seems ridiculously quaint in retrospect. I have no doubt that I was having an incredibly intense and powerful experience when I screamed at Paul McCartney, but now that I look at it from today's vantage point, how ridiculous!" Shame on you, Joy!!! Shame!!! Pual McCartney was and still is a GOD. This man along with the Beatles wrote some of the best music of the times. Their influence on popular music and culture is immeasurable. I still scream and chant for Paul each time I get to see him in concert - long live Paul!!!!! Paul is GOD. John Lennon was God, but he died.
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Date: Tues, Mar 3, 1998 at 05:40:53 (EST)
Poster: chr
Email:
To: John Cavad
Subject: Re: Maharaji then and now
Message:
OK thanks for all the replies-I'll take them all on board.Some people seem to have the impression that I haven't quite detached myself from M.I did a lot of work to do with it for several years after I left and am very clear on where I stand with it all personally-basically I want nothing to with him and what he offers(and takes).I guess what I want to look at now is :who is this guy who took 15 years of my life?Its a little different to the Beatles(actually I always much preferred Lennon) in I was giving my life in a sincere,but misguided belief that I was receiving the keys to this life.It seems to me that with M theres afew possibilties- 1.He's sincere but totally deluded 2.He's not sincere,but is perpetuating an oppunistic fraud 3.He's confused-he knows deep down that what hes doing is wrong,but can't acknowledge it 4.He does have some genuine spiritual charisma and power but is misusing and abusing it-which is a betrayal of trust on the deepest level 5.Something even more sinister is going on-sounds like something out of the Xfiles,doesn't it?But what I mean is that there were times when I was around M-say at the residence,or airports,or even backstage when there was a very dark,almost frightening feel about him.I used to rationalise it as my own head doing it,but it was disturbing.I don't want to get into antichrist type stuff, but it was kind of spooky.Anybody else have this sort of experience,especially people who were around him on a regular basis?
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Date: Tues, Mar 3, 1998 at 09:22:40 (EST)
Poster: John K.
Email:
To: Straining at the feet
Subject: Re: of the master (Re: Maharaji then and now)
Message:
Laughter heard in North Carolina! Oh man, my body really had a hard time with the vegetarian diet of rice beans and zuchini! Jeeez! When I was living in oregon we had a retreat out on this beautiful piece of land in the country. We had to use outhouses, and I was stuck for one entire day on a gorgeous beautiful hillside because I did not dare to go further than 20 feet from the outhouse. Thanks to the oatmeal for breakfast, rice for lunch, and soy beans for dinner. As I remember it there were no pictures but there was a saying tacked up in that outhouse: The straight and narrow path sometimes becomes the long and winding road.
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Date: Tues, Mar 3, 1998 at 10:36:43 (EST)
Poster: CD
Email:
To: John K.
Subject: Re: of the master (Re: Maharaji then and now)
Message:
Laughter heard in North Carolina! Oh man, my body really had a hard time with the vegetarian diet of rice beans and zuchini! Jeeez! When I was living in oregon we had a retreat out on this beautiful piece of land in the country. We had to use outhouses, and I was stuck for one entire day on a gorgeous beautiful hillside because I did not dare to go further than 20 feet from the outhouse. Thanks to the oatmeal for breakfast, rice for lunch, and soy beans for dinner. As I remember it there were no pictures but there was a saying tacked up in that outhouse: The straight and narrow path sometimes becomes the long and winding road. Maybe diet and luck explains our current differences. I happen to have had the good fortune of eating some excellent vegetarian food and didn't get stuck in the John. I still prefer good vegetarian food and cook a really good spaghetti myself. My recipe includes the dreaded zuchini. I do of course add some fine red merlot to the sauce. Regards, CD Robots don't eat much
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Date: Tues, Mar 3, 1998 at 10:53:52 (EST)
Poster: John K.
Email: kreilkamp@mindspring.com
To: CD
Subject: Re: of the master (Re: Maharaji then and now)
Message:
CD: Actually, I was talking about 20+ years ago. My digestive system has loosened up a bit since then. Though I swear on a stack of videos that I turned orange in 1974. I got so sick that I lost 50 lbs, I dropped down to about 115 lbs. The doctors told me I had carotene anemia, which is a fairly rare sickness but it means your skin turns orange. I looked bad! It was basically an overdose of whatever the stuff is that's in squash, etc. When the premie police come and haul me away they can torture me by force feeding me zuchini. Psychologically, I am terrified of that rather harmless looking vegetable. BTW, I'll put my spaghetti sauce against yours any day of the week. And yes mine is vegetarian. (I am married to a vegetarian so I still regretably eat mostly vegetarian food.) Only a robotic mind could concieve of spoiling a spaghetti sauce with zukes! AAAARRGGHHH! Seriously though send me your recipe (I'll make it sans zuke) and I'll send you mine.
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Date: Tues, Mar 3, 1998 at 11:24:07 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: John K.
Subject: Re: of the master (Re: Maharaji then and now)
Message:
>Seriously though send me your recipe (I'll make it sans zuke) and I'll send you mine. Fraternizing with the enemy, John?
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Date: Tues, Mar 3, 1998 at 11:40:19 (EST)
Poster: John K.
Email:
To: Jim
Subject: Re: of the master (Re: Maharaji then and now)
Message:
Shri Jim Ji: I'm sorry, swamiji, is this not allowed? I've been out on my own for a while, and I'm kind of rusty on cult protocol. (btw, don't tell our robotic friend, but I plan to doctor up the recipe just for him, heh heh)
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Date: Tues, Mar 3, 1998 at 12:08:37 (EST)
Poster: Joy
Email:
To: CD
Subject: Re: of the master (Re: Maharaji then and now)
Message:
Got any good vegetarian recipes for expensive French cognac, CD?
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Date: Tues, Mar 3, 1998 at 15:15:51 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: chr
Subject: Re: Maharaji then and now
Message:
OK thanks for all the replies-I'll take them all on board.Some people seem to have the impression that I haven't quite detached myself from M.I did a lot of work to do with it for several years after I left and am very clear on where I stand with it all personally-basically I want nothing to with him and what he offers(and takes).I guess what I want to look at now is :who is this guy who took 15 years of my life?Its a little different to the Beatles(actually I always much preferred Lennon) in I was giving my life in a sincere,but misguided belief that I was receiving the keys to this life.It seems to me that with M theres afew possibilties- 1.He's sincere but totally deluded 2.He's not sincere,but is perpetuating an oppunistic fraud 3.He's confused-he knows deep down that what hes doing is wrong,but can't acknowledge it 4.He does have some genuine spiritual charisma and power but is misusing and abusing it-which is a betrayal of trust on the deepest level 5.Something even more sinister is going on-sounds like something out of the Xfiles,doesn't it?But what I mean is that there were times when I was around M-say at the residence,or airports,or even backstage when there was a very dark,almost frightening feel about him.I used to rationalise it as my own head doing it,but it was disturbing.I don't want to get into antichrist type stuff, but it was kind of spooky.Anybody else have this sort of experience,especially people who were around him on a regular basis? I think Maharaji's motivations are items 1 through 3 with a little bit of number 4 thrown in. And I think the motivation varies from time to time, depending on how things are going, and how he feels about himself. Regarding the "dark, almost frightening feel about him," I recall that when I was CC in Miami, I had opportunities to be around him and probably could have secured more by pulling some strings. But after the first few encounters, I avoided being around him. That's because I had felt something really repulsive and sinister about him in my first few encounters, and, of course, I blamed myself for being confused and unsurrendered, and hence seeing him as a "reflection of myself" which was the rationalization premies used for so many things. I just didn't like him at all, and something inside of me said to stay away from him. And yet I was supposed to be in love with him. It was too confronting, the dissonance of what I felt vs. what I thought I was supposed to feel, so I stayed away, telling no one, of course. Programs were another story. Maharaji seemed to get energy from the attention of the premies and hence seemed somewhat more attractive.
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Date: Tues, Mar 3, 1998 at 15:16:28 (EST)
Poster: A toast to
Email: **
To: John K.
Subject: My Lord (Re: Maharaji then and now)
Message:
That's a hoot, I was a staunch vegetarian until I started leaning towards the sun. I called the ashram in hartford The Bond Street Beanery. Those poor guys considered toast with butter to be a rare delicasy. From first world to third world to devotee status.
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Date: Tues, Mar 3, 1998 at 15:20:12 (EST)
Poster: CD= Chewing
Email: **
To: CD
Subject: Daisies (Re: Maharaji then and now)
Message:
What's your protein source CD? Protein was not a big consideration in the premie world certainly.
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Date: Tues, Mar 3, 1998 at 15:32:02 (EST)
Poster: CD
Email:
To: Joy
Subject: Re: of the master (Re: Maharaji then and now)
Message:
Got any good vegetarian recipes for expensive French cognac, CD? No. But you might enjoy a nice bottle of Cambria Reserve Chardonnay (about $22 at Vons). Forget trying to make the stuff for yourself. AIID did add a bit of variety. Glad you were able to contribute. Cheers!
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Date: Tues, Mar 3, 1998 at 16:29:27 (EST)
Poster: John K.
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: Maharaji then and now
Message:
When I lived in Miami Beach I was not around M but I was around people who were around him a lot, and I remember those people often seemed to be extremely confused, uptight, and unhappy. There were several explanations for this phenomenon. One was: since they have been in the presence of The Lord being separated from Him is just so hard to take. Thus they seem slightly freaked out all the time because they cannot handle the separation. Another was: It's the power of mind confronting the power of the Perfect Master! We are engaged in a spiritual battle. The mind totally freaks out when it is in the presence of The Master! Hence the wierd behavior of premies who were around him a lot. I remember hearing Marino, remember the guy who used to always be with M?, telling me how much he liked the days that he did NOT have to go to the residence. I think he attributed that to reason number 2. that his Mind needed a break.
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Date: Tues, Mar 3, 1998 at 17:08:50 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: John K.
Subject: Re: Maharaji then and now
Message:
When I lived in Miami Beach I was not around M but I was around people who were around him a lot, and I remember those people often seemed to be extremely confused, uptight, and unhappy. There were several explanations for this phenomenon. One was: since they have been in the presence of The Lord being separated from Him is just so hard to take. Thus they seem slightly freaked out all the time because they cannot handle the separation. Another was: It's the power of mind confronting the power of the Perfect Master! We are engaged in a spiritual battle. The mind totally freaks out when it is in the presence of The Master! Hence the wierd behavior of premies who were around him a lot. I remember hearing Marino, remember the guy who used to always be with M?, telling me how much he liked the days that he did NOT have to go to the residence. I think he attributed that to reason number 2. that his Mind needed a break. So true. In Miami Beach, at the Alton Road Offices, I had a an office a few doors from Dennis Marciniak, who was officially the president of DLM. This was in 1979-1980. Anyway, Dennis would go for meetings sometimes with Maharaji, along with some other honchos and initiators. Sometimes he would come back absolutely devestated, looking like he had seen a ghost or something. I guess Maharaji was really trashing DLM at the time, and I guess Dennis was sometimes his target. Sometimes Dennis would repeat some of the really negative stuff Maharaji would say, and how angry Maharaji was. I really liked Dennis and I thought he was a very decent person. Dennis would say, when he was so freaked, that he had to learn to surrender more and have more faith and trust in Maharaji. I guess that was my feeling as well, that my negative encounters with M were do to my failure to be surrendered and my lack of faith. But that was just the ongoing, circular brainwashing of the cult. That everything good that happened was due to Maharaji and everything bad, or difficult, or confused, or repulsive that happened was due to ME. Talk about a horrible place to live in, but most of us did. BTW -- Does anyone know the wereabouts of Dennis Marciniak, or whether he's still a premie or not?
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Date: Tues, Mar 3, 1998 at 20:22:27 (EST)
Poster: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net
To: A toast to
Subject: Re: My Lord (Re: Maharaji then and now)
Message:
That's a hoot, I was a staunch vegetarian until I started leaning towards the sun. I called the ashram in hartford The Bond Street Beanery. Those poor guys considered toast with butter to be a rare delicasy. From first world to third world to devotee status. How many of the Ex's are still vegetarians? I reverted to omnivorism upon my departure from the Lotus Feet, but I'm married to a vegetarian and my daughter, too, is a vegetarian. Since I do all the cooking, I do a lot of vegie cooking (including the dreaded zuccini) but I also cook the flesh of dead animals for myself (the live one's squirm too much). Let's make an Ex-premie cook book!!
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Date: Tues, Mar 3, 1998 at 20:34:43 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: Mickey the Pharisee
Subject: Re: My Lord (Re: Maharaji then and now)
Message:
I never went back to meat. Do you think I should? Eggs neither.
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Date: Tues, Mar 3, 1998 at 20:40:37 (EST)
Poster: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net
To: Jim
Subject: Re: My Lord (Re: Maharaji then and now)
Message:
I never went back to meat. Do you think I should? Eggs neither. Geez, Jim, it's been a while. I think that it might be pretty tough on your digestive system if you started eating meat right now. Why not just eat whatever makes you happy!
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Date: Tues, Mar 3, 1998 at 20:50:37 (EST)
Poster: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net
To: Jim
Subject: Re: My Lord (Re: Maharaji then and now)
Message:
I never went back to meat. Do you think I should? Eggs neither. Geez, Jim, if it's been a while since you ate animal flesh, it might be pretty tough on your digestive system if you started eating meat right now. Why not just eat whatever makes you happy! I know you will anyway :-)
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Date: Tues, Mar 3, 1998 at 20:57:21 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: Mickey the Pharisee
Subject: Re: My Lord (Re: Maharaji then and now)
Message:
I never went back to eating meat either, although I am careful to eat a lot of protein, as I feel better when I do. But I was a vegetarian before I received knowledge, so I never really associated that with Maharaji so much anyway. So, I do eat eggs on occasion, but I try to avoid eating nothing but carbohydrates, which was pretty much our diet in the ashram, with the addition of some tofu at certain times.
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Date: Tues, Mar 3, 1998 at 21:18:26 (EST)
Poster: Rick
Email: rtaraday@hotmail.com
To: Mickey the Pharisee
Subject: Re: My Lord (Re: Maharaji then and now)
Message:
That's a hoot, I was a staunch vegetarian until I started leaning towards the sun. I called the ashram in hartford The Bond Street Beanery. Those poor guys considered toast with butter to be a rare delicasy. From first world to third world to devotee status. How many of the Ex's are still vegetarians? I reverted to omnivorism upon my departure from the Lotus Feet, but I'm married to a vegetarian and my daughter, too, is a vegetarian. Since I do all the cooking, I do a lot of vegie cooking (including the dreaded zuccini) but I also cook the flesh of dead animals for myself (the live one's squirm too much). Let's make an Ex-premie cook book!! After leaving m I drifted back and forth between vegetarian and eating anything. About six months ago, I started eating vegan after a bout of pneumonia. I remember the ashram premies in Honolulu having melted cheese on top of every dinner casserole.
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Date: Tues, Mar 3, 1998 at 21:18:32 (EST)
Poster: Rick
Email: rtaraday@hotmail.com
To: Mickey the Pharisee
Subject: Re: My Lord (Re: Maharaji then and now)
Message:
That's a hoot, I was a staunch vegetarian until I started leaning towards the sun. I called the ashram in hartford The Bond Street Beanery. Those poor guys considered toast with butter to be a rare delicasy. From first world to third world to devotee status. How many of the Ex's are still vegetarians? I reverted to omnivorism upon my departure from the Lotus Feet, but I'm married to a vegetarian and my daughter, too, is a vegetarian. Since I do all the cooking, I do a lot of vegie cooking (including the dreaded zuccini) but I also cook the flesh of dead animals for myself (the live one's squirm too much). Let's make an Ex-premie cook book!! After leaving m I drifted back and forth between vegetarian and eating anything. About six months ago, I started eating vegan after a bout of pneumonia. I remember the ashram premies in Honolulu having melted cheese on top of every dinner casserole.
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