Ex-Premie.Org |
Forum II Archive # 8 | |
From: Feb 28, 1998 |
To: Mar 7, 1998 |
Page: 5 Of: 5 |
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Date: Sun, Mar 1, 1998 at 22:38:53 (EST)
Poster: JW Email: joger02@aol.com To: Everyone Subject: A Premie's Doublespeak Message: First the important part of this post (off topic). I just gotta say, that if anyone reading this likes to ski, they should run, not walk, to the nearest means of getting to California and specifically the Sierra. The ski resorts have 40 feet of snow thanks to the grace of El Nino and I have never in my life seen the skiing better. It gave me a beautiful experience within inside myself and I feel devotion towards it. It has the sweetest taste. But watch out for trees. It's been a bad year for skiers and trees, no matter what you think of Sonny Bono. Now for something less important but on topic. I just had to marvel at "A Premie's" backflips at attempting to rationalize his guru's trip and the relationship "A Premie" has to it. But A Premie said something on Friday that really took the cake. The amazing stupidity of this "logic" goes like this: First, as you know, A Premie, in his desperate attempt to explain why thousands of people get involved with Maharaji and then split from him and even have the gall to talk about it, said that we exes never had the experience of what Maharaji had to offer, despite following his explicit directions for 10 or 20 years. Besides the negative reflection this has on Maharaji as a pretty lousy teacher, I also pointed out how A Premie has no way of knowing what anyone else experienced, except from A Premie's spiritually advanced infused knowledge, which A Premie seems to think he or she has. But moreover, this convenient rationalization contradicts the ideology in the Maharaji cult that anyone knows who has been a premie for more than 15 minutes. That is, that the entire experience supposedly comes from the grace of Guru Maharaj Ji. Indeed, M himself spoke of the "grace of effort" and the "grace of devotion," and that he "teache Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Mar 1, 1998 at 22:56:16 (EST)
Poster: JW (Continued) Email: To: JW Subject: Re: A Premie's Doublespeak Message: First the important part of this post (off topic). I just gotta say, that if anyone reading this likes to ski, they should run, not walk, to the nearest means of getting to California and specifically the Sierra. The ski resorts have 40 feet of snow thanks to the grace of El Nino and I have never in my life seen the skiing better. It gave me a beautiful experience within inside myself and I feel devotion towards it. It has the sweetest taste. But watch out for trees. It's been a bad year for skiers and trees, no matter what you think of Sonny Bono. Now for something less important but on topic. I just had to marvel at 'A Premie's' backflips at attempting to rationalize his guru's trip and the relationship 'A Premie' has to it. But A Premie said something on Friday that really took the cake. The amazing stupidity of this 'logic' goes like this: First, as you know, A Premie, in his desperate attempt to explain why thousands of people get involved with Maharaji and then split from him and even have the gall to talk about it, said that we exes never had the experience of what Maharaji had to offer, despite following his explicit directions for 10 or 20 years. Besides the negative reflection this has on Maharaji as a pretty lousy teacher, I also pointed out how A Premie has no way of knowing what anyone else experienced, except from A Premie's spiritually advanced infused knowledge, which A Premie seems to think he or she has. But moreover, this convenient rationalization contradicts the ideology in the Maharaji cult that anyone knows who has been a premie for more than 15 minutes. That is, that the entire experience supposedly comes from the grace of Guru Maharaj Ji. Indeed, M himself spoke of the 'grace of effort' and the 'grace of devotion,' and that he 'teache Well, that got cut off, and it continues: Indeed, M himself spoke of the "grace of effort," and the "gace of devotion" and that he "teaches devotion" and that we should "pray" to him to get these graces to even have an experience or, as he said on Hans Jayanti, "that we can even look at him." And how does this jive what what Maharaji said, while I was sitting in the room by the way, that he "never lost a premie?" I mean, if we just "misunderstand," we're gonners and he lost us. But contradicting his own guru doesn't seem to bother A Premie if it holds his religion together. Guess Maharaji was just making that shit up. You gotta do what you gotta do. But wait, it gets worse. In response to another post A Premie said: "He (Maharaji) recognizes that K may not be for everyone." Damn right. It wasn't "for" me or 90% of the other people who received knowledge. It apparently is only "for" .00004% of the population, even being VERY generous in estimates about the number of practicing premies. Well, I guess Maharaji was sort foreced to admit THAT! But this statement also contradicts what I have heard Maharaji say in a good 15 introductory programs I have attended -- namely that knowledge is absolutely for everyone, in fact, the experience of knowledge is the very purpose of human existence. He also rants about how "easy" and "simple" it is to experience, apparently in an attempt to encourage people to get into it. So, I guess M was jusy lying by A Premie's theory." But moreover, I pointed out that his statement contradicts A Premie's earlier theory that exes just "misunderstood." If it wasn't "for" them in the first place, how could they ever even hope to "understand?" A Premie's response to this gave new meaning to the term "doublespeak." But it was a distinction without a difference, he said: "More like, if you don't understand it, it's probably not for you." Huh? Any idiot can see this just reinforces what I just said. So, what IS your point, A Premie? Is it you who are making stuff up, or was it Maharaji? It's got to be one or the other. Hurry up, can't wait to hear the shuck and jive. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Mar 1, 1998 at 17:24:44 (EST)
Poster: nigel Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: Everyone Subject: systematic damage limitation Message: Have you ever wondered what YOU would do if you were M, faced with a hostile website whose existence can only spell trouble for your guru business, and over which you have absolutely no control? I think I would do all of the following: (1) Tell your followers to keep off the net. Such is their devotion in most cases, you should not incur too much in the way of membership losses from your EXISTING fan-base, but will not be enough to prevent damage to your future aspirant programs. (2) Prime your premies well by bad-mouting all internet-based ex's in public. This should help keep on board those few naughty ones who can't resist sneaking a peek behind the cyber-curtain. (3) Set up a small team of rock-solid Satchitanandroids with special permission to send anonymous messages to the forum on a daily basis, with the following explicit instructions. They must: - challenge every negative remark made about your good self. - challenge the personal integrity of all your ex's on the grounds that they (a) never devoted, or (b) failed to understand your teachings. - testify to the experience of infinite bliss they are enjoying on a day-to-day basis. They must NOT: - discuss any detail of your own life apart from your message. - talk about fund-raising / income issues. - get enticed into any rational debate over matters of a moral, philosophical, religious or scientific nature (though they may freely quote from your own addresses, or recount ancient parables as they see fit.) Well, as I said, that is only what I would do... Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Mar 1, 1998 at 17:55:23 (EST)
Poster: JSCA droid aka Diver Dan Email: crothfam@idirect.com To: nigel Subject: Re: systematic damage limitation Message: Have you ever wondered what YOU would do if you were M, faced with a hostile website whose existence can only spell trouble for your guru business, and over which you have absolutely no control? I think I would do all of the following: (1) Tell your followers to keep off the net. Such is their devotion in most cases, you should not incur too much in the way of membership losses from your EXISTING fan-base, but will not be enough to prevent damage to your future aspirant programs. (2) Prime your premies well by bad-mouting all internet-based ex's in public. This should help keep on board those few naughty ones who can't resist sneaking a peek behind the cyber-curtain. (3) Set up a small team of rock-solid Satchitanandroids with special permission to send anonymous messages to the forum on a daily basis, with the following explicit instructions. They must: - challenge every negative remark made about your good self. - challenge the personal integrity of all your ex's on the grounds that they (a) never devoted, or (b) failed to understand your teachings. - testify to the experience of infinite bliss they are enjoying on a day-to-day basis. They must NOT: - discuss any detail of your own life apart from your message. - talk about fund-raising / income issues. - get enticed into any rational debate over matters of a moral, philosophical, religious or scientific nature (though they may freely quote from your own addresses, or recount ancient parables as they see fit.) Well, as I said, that is only what I would do... And that's why you are you, paranoid and off the mark! And He's Devine. Ah the infinite bliss we do enjoy ! Oh the anguish of the finite mind that trys to anilize,but can not ! And therefore denies! Ps I've been instructed by no one with explicit instructions or otherwise, were do you get this stuff, the fiction part of the library? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Mar 1, 1998 at 18:22:18 (EST)
Poster: Scott T. Email: To: nigel Subject: Re: systematic damage limitation Message: Have you ever wondered what YOU would do if you were M, faced with a hostile website whose existence can only spell trouble for your guru business, and over which you have absolutely no control? I think I would do all of the following: (1) Tell your followers to keep off the net. Such is their devotion in most cases, you should not incur too much in the way of membership losses from your EXISTING fan-base, but will not be enough to prevent damage to your future aspirant programs. (2) Prime your premies well by bad-mouting all internet-based ex's in public. This should help keep on board those few naughty ones who can't resist sneaking a peek behind the cyber-curtain. (3) Set up a small team of rock-solid Satchitanandroids with special permission to send anonymous messages to the forum on a daily basis, with the following explicit instructions. They must: - challenge every negative remark made about your good self. - challenge the personal integrity of all your ex's on the grounds that they (a) never devoted, or (b) failed to understand your teachings. - testify to the experience of infinite bliss they are enjoying on a day-to-day basis. They must NOT: - discuss any detail of your own life apart from your message. - talk about fund-raising / income issues. - get enticed into any rational debate over matters of a moral, philosophical, religious or scientific nature (though they may freely quote from your own addresses, or recount ancient parables as they see fit.) Well, as I said, that is only what I would do... Nigel: The flaw in your reasoning is that it assumes he has the intelligence and presence of mind to institute such a plan. -Scott Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Mar 1, 1998 at 18:58:17 (EST)
Poster: Jim Email: To: JSCA droid aka Diver Dan Subject: Re: systematic damage limitation Message: >And that's why you are you, paranoid and off the mark! And >He's Devine. Ah the infinite bliss we do enjoy ! Oh the >anguish of the finite mind that trys to anilize,but can >not ! And therefore denies! Ps I've been instructed by no >one with explicit instructions or otherwise, were do you >get this stuff, the fiction part of the library? Dan, I'm not going to make fun of your spelling but you should know it's 'divine', not 'devine.' So, you fall into the category of premies who claim M's the Lord. Interesting. Obviously, we know where you got that from. He sucked us all into thinking as much way back when. What do you make of his denials then? For example, see Scott's post below under 'end time Guru!.' Scott wrote Maharaji a letter in 1980 asking Maharaji about his 'messiah status' and, as he tells us, Maharaji's letter-answerer wrote back saying Maharaji definitely denied being the Messiah. What about that, Dan? Was the letter-answerer lying? Is Scott? By the way, when was the last time you saw 'Life of Brian'? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Mar 1, 1998 at 19:18:58 (EST)
Poster: Sir David Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk To: JSCA droid aka Diver Dan Subject: Re: systematic damage limitation Message: Every time a present premie makes a contribution there is a danger of things polarizing into a argument with no purpose. Diver Dan, you know that someone who meditate regularly doesn't experience infinite bliss every day. The bliss found in meditation is not constant and is impossible to pin down. I was around some of the most devoted premies and initiators in the seventies and indeed, I was pretty devoted myself and none of us were experiencing constant infinite bliss. Come down off your soap box please and admit that you're human like the rest of us. Most of us here know the score. We are not without experience here. The question is Maharaji, not anything else. Why does he want the devotion from people as if he were God? Do you consider him to be God? And if you consider him to be the Almighty, why? Something as important as this should not be kept hidden or kept within the confines of a few people. He said many times that he was God and many people believed him. Now he either is or isn't. Wouldn't you agree? And this is not something where one can give some smart Alec, flippant answer, either. If you consider Maharaji is God then you'd be under some responsibility to tell us why. And if Maharaji's NOT god then why all the worship and devotion to him and hanging on his every word? Why does he want to be treated like God? None of these questions have ever been answered on this forum. Perhaps you could make a start. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Mar 1, 1998 at 21:29:09 (EST)
Poster: Dan Email: crothfam@idirect.com To: Sir David Subject: Re: systematic damage limitation Message: Every time a present premie makes a contribution there is a danger of things polarizing into a argument with no purpose. Diver Dan, you know that someone who meditate regularly doesn't experience infinite bliss every day. The bliss found in meditation is not constant and is impossible to pin down. I was around some of the most devoted premies and initiators in the seventies and indeed, I was pretty devoted myself and none of us were experiencing constant infinite bliss. Come down off your soap box please and admit that you're human like the rest of us. Most of us here know the score. We are not without experience here. The question is Maharaji, not anything else. Why does he want the devotion from people as if he were God? Do you consider him to be God? And if you consider him to be the Almighty, why? Something as important as this should not be kept hidden or kept within the confines of a few people. He said many times that he was God and many people believed him. Now he either is or isn't. Wouldn't you agree? And this is not something where one can give some smart Alec, flippant answer, either. If you consider Maharaji is God then you'd be under some responsibility to tell us why. And if Maharaji's NOT god then why all the worship and devotion to him and hanging on his every word? Why does he want to be treated like God? None of these questions have ever been answered on this forum. Perhaps you could make a start. That is not the fault of the experiance but rather the one whom is trying to experiance it. I always liked the analogy of enlightenment to that of the use of a mercury switch that as soon as the finger is removed from the light switch then the light goes off and that it takes constant unbroken attention to the application of the switch to maintain it. I'm on no soap box I'd be the first to admit that my devotion , my meditation practices and for that matter most things I do in my life are far from what I aspire for, but that is what makes me and everyone else all human, but that does not mean that to which I aspire is any the less . Absolutely no one but myself can question my own experiances , that's pemies and ex's both. I can not attest truly for what any one but myself feels to be real and true. I can not answer for why Maharaji wants or does any thing .What" I " can say is" I" accept him as Perfect Master and I his student and when the two of us meet ,It's magic ! That is not a flippant answer but my experiance! Is he or Isn't he God ,well that is up to each individual to explore and find out within inside of himself , call the connection what you may ,my own personal belief is that Maharaji is the Perfect Master of our time and has shown me the simplicity and the beauty which is life, that was there and that I was not aware and when I either go into that experiance, devote to him or be in his presence I feel the same love ,peace and tranquility within me regardless of all other things going on in my life . You and others can argue it, rationalize what did or didn't happen as it relates to your experiances, but that does not diminish the relationship that I find with Maharaji! My words may not be spelt correct nor they may not be as elequent or as educated as others and they do not but begin to articulate the experiance of love and fall far short of how I truly feel, but this is but an inkling of what can be. I believe there must be a thirst and the glass turned up in order for there to even be the possibility of fulfillment . And were ever I am at or you or anyone is but a fleeting moment in the endless possibilities ,such is life, it is but an opportunity to experiance that which so simple and is over looked life itself. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Mar 1, 1998 at 22:08:01 (EST)
Poster: Sir David Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk To: Dan Subject: Re: systematic damage limitation Message: Fine. A good explaination. However, do you understand also that the ex-premies here are not all evi or lost souls. We are not "fallen angels" but quite simply, our experience of Maharaji has been very different to the one you describe. The problem with dialogue between premies and ex-premies is that the premies usually fail to see that the ex-premies were into this trip for a long, long time and just did not have a magical experience of Maharaji. I attended a seven day Hans Jayanti festival in Orlando once and it was as if I was an alien from a diferent planet. I just couldn't relate to any of it. I did not enjoy it one bit and wished to God I was somewhere else. Yes Maharaji danced nearly every night and yes, most premies went wild. I felt absolutely nothing. I truly felt that I shouldn't have been there. And I was far from being a non-practising premie. I meditated daily and did lots of service. Do you really think that someone (like myself) who has had such a non experience of the Lord, then and at many other times; do you really think I would go against what I felt? I'd be a fool to continue such a labour. Person A feels absolutely nothing while person B gets blissed out. Which is the enlightened one?? I'll leave you to ponder that. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Mar 2, 1998 at 00:10:23 (EST)
Poster: Dan Email: crothfam@idirect.com To: Sir David Subject: Re: systematic damage limitation Message: Fine. A good explaination. However, do you understand also that the ex-premies here are not all evi or lost souls. We are not 'fallen angels' but quite simply, our experience of Maharaji has been very different to the one you describe. The problem with dialogue between premies and ex-premies is that the premies usually fail to see that the ex-premies were into this trip for a long, long time and just did not have a magical experience of Maharaji. I attended a seven day Hans Jayanti festival in Orlando once and it was as if I was an alien from a diferent planet. I just couldn't relate to any of it. I did not enjoy it one bit and wished to God I was somewhere else. Yes Maharaji danced nearly every night and yes, most premies went wild. I felt absolutely nothing. I truly felt that I shouldn't have been there. And I was far from being a non-practising premie. I meditated daily and did lots of service. Do you really think that someone (like myself) who has had such a non experience of the Lord, then and at many other times; do you really think I would go against what I felt? I'd be a fool to continue such a labour. Person A feels absolutely nothing while person B gets blissed out. Which is the enlightened one?? I'll leave you to ponder that. In regards to your last question ,I think neither one is enlightened !But that one of the two is at present experiancing the trials ,tribulations of a test of his faith ,the other I believe to be in a state of grace, One is perplexed and with good reason for he questions, and with out answer why he does not feel nor experiances the same as the other .I can not answer, nor do I pretend to know" Why" any more than I can answer the riddles of God and life and death and why some things happen to one and not the other, for both positive and negative influences ebb and flow into all of our lives ,and why does one get one set of experiances and another gets what they do .I only pray that it doen't happen to me !For the despair of, he with out hope of salvation .I can only believe that it is a game or a play and we each have designated roles that all fit together? They with the roles ,at present, of Ex's will only be temporary in the infinite play of lord and devottee. For ex's had to be seekers with a thirst at one time and I believe this role they now play out to only be a detour on the grand path. No judgement ,I wish all a safe and speedey journey back ,sooner, rather than later for I" believe" in future lives on our quest,but I am only" SURE "of this precious ,sweet but all to short of a life we now have, by Gods grace given ! a traveller..........Dan Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Mar 2, 1998 at 03:26:25 (EST)
Poster: ex-mug Email: To: Dan Subject: Re: systematic damage limitation Message: Every time a present premie makes a contribution there is a danger of things polarizing into a argument with no purpose. Diver Dan, you know that someone who meditate regularly doesn't experience infinite bliss every day. The bliss found in meditation is not constant and is impossible to pin down. I was around some of the most devoted premies and initiators in the seventies and indeed, I was pretty devoted myself and none of us were experiencing constant infinite bliss. Come down off your soap box please and admit that you're human like the rest of us. Most of us here know the score. We are not without experience here. The question is Maharaji, not anything else. Why does he want the devotion from people as if he were God? Do you consider him to be God? And if you consider him to be the Almighty, why? Something as important as this should not be kept hidden or kept within the confines of a few people. He said many times that he was God and many people believed him. Now he either is or isn't. Wouldn't you agree? And this is not something where one can give some smart Alec, flippant answer, either. If you consider Maharaji is God then you'd be under some responsibility to tell us why. And if Maharaji's NOT god then why all the worship and devotion to him and hanging on his every word? Why does he want to be treated like God? None of these questions have ever been answered on this forum. Perhaps you could make a start. That is not the fault of the experiance but rather the one whom is trying to experiance it. I always liked the analogy of enlightenment to that of the use of a mercury switch that as soon as the finger is removed from the light switch then the light goes off and that it takes constant unbroken attention to the application of the switch to maintain it. I'm on no soap box I'd be the first to admit that my devotion , my meditation practices and for that matter most things I do in my life are far from what I aspire for, but that is what makes me and everyone else all human, but that does not mean that to which I aspire is any the less . Absolutely no one but myself can question my own experiances , that's pemies and ex's both. I can not attest truly for what any one but myself feels to be real and true. I can not answer for why Maharaji wants or does any thing .What' I ' can say is' I' accept him as Perfect Master and I his student and when the two of us meet ,It's magic ! That is not a flippant answer but my experiance! Is he or Isn't he God ,well that is up to each individual to explore and find out within inside of himself , call the connection what you may ,my own personal belief is that Maharaji is the Perfect Master of our time and has shown me the simplicity and the beauty which is life, that was there and that I was not aware and when I either go into that experiance, devote to him or be in his presence I feel the same love ,peace and tranquility within me regardless of all other things going on in my life . You and others can argue it, rationalize what did or didn't happen as it relates to your experiances, but that does not diminish the relationship that I find with Maharaji! My words may not be spelt correct nor they may not be as elequent or as educated as others and they do not but begin to articulate the experiance of love and fall far short of how I truly feel, but this is but an inkling of what can be. I believe there must be a thirst and the glass turned up in order for there to even be the possibility of fulfillment . And were ever I am at or you or anyone is but a fleeting moment in the endless possibilities ,such is life, it is but an opportunity to experiance that which so simple and is over looked life itself. blah, blah, blah, blah zzzzzzzzzzzzz Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Mar 2, 1998 at 05:15:25 (EST)
Poster: Sir David Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk To: Dan Subject: Nobody is condemned (Re: systematic damage limitation) Message: Dan wrote in response to my non experience of the Lord: "and why does one get one set of experiances and another gets what they do. I only pray that it doen't happen to me! For the despair of, he with out hope of salvation." I read your post several times and believe you are genuinely sincere. But then so am I. Of course, neither of us is enlightened and I believe such a thing is a myth anyway. I don't believe I am without hope of salvation any more than my Auntie Mary who lives in Devon. God does not exclude people from His love. Well now I know that you genuinely believe Maharaji is the Lord and you are his devotee. You are bound to think then that I am a lost soul without hope of salvation. But what about the rest of the world? If God came, wouldn't He come to save them also? And yet here's me, someone who tried for years to be a devotee of the living Lord who is without hope of salvation. What hope the rest of the world?!! My premise is that we are both right. You are right to have your experience and believe the things that you do and I am right to have my experience and believe the things I do. I will never accept or believe that I am damned because that's not been my experience. Quite the contrary in fact. I do my 20 minutes formal meditation (sometimes I do more) and get on with my life. One thing I have found, regardless of God or guru, is that love conquers all. Love is the stronger force. And yet you think we are without hope of salvation. Lift up your eyes and look at the world and the people in it and see the love that we are all made from. Nobody is condemned here. Only, people condemn each other. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Mar 2, 1998 at 15:23:21 (EST)
Poster: Nigel Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: Scott T. Subject: Re: systematic damage limitation Message: Have you ever wondered what YOU would do if you were M, faced with a hostile website whose existence can only spell trouble for your guru business, and over which you have absolutely no control? I think I would do all of the following: (1) Tell your followers to keep off the net. Such is their devotion in most cases, you should not incur too much in the way of membership losses from your EXISTING fan-base, but will not be enough to prevent damage to your future aspirant programs. (2) Prime your premies well by bad-mouting all internet-based ex's in public. This should help keep on board those few naughty ones who can't resist sneaking a peek behind the cyber-curtain. (3) Set up a small team of rock-solid Satchitanandroids with special permission to send anonymous messages to the forum on a daily basis, with the following explicit instructions. They must: - challenge every negative remark made about your good self. - challenge the personal integrity of all your ex's on the grounds that they (a) never devoted, or (b) failed to understand your teachings. - testify to the experience of infinite bliss they are enjoying on a day-to-day basis. They must NOT: - discuss any detail of your own life apart from your message. - talk about fund-raising / income issues. - get enticed into any rational debate over matters of a moral, philosophical, religious or scientific nature (though they may freely quote from your own addresses, or recount ancient parables as they see fit.) Well, as I said, that is only what I would do... Nigel: The flaw in your reasoning is that it assumes he has the intelligence and presence of mind to institute such a plan. -Scott Good point, Scott - Which is why I stressed that this is what > I < would do. But them I'm not a perfect master ( I'm not even a misguided nonentity who believes himself to be the perfect master). The funny thing is, from reading premie posts, there is absolutely no way you would know whether they were under special instructions, is there? - I mean, they seem follow the rules I outlined, but then, they would, wouldn't they? Regards, The paranoid android from paraguay. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Mar 2, 1998 at 19:59:49 (EST)
Poster: nigel Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: JSCA droid aka Diver Dan Subject: Re: systematic damage limitation Message: Have you ever wondered what YOU would do if you were M, faced with a hostile website whose existence can only spell trouble for your guru business, and over which you have absolutely no control? I think I would do all of the following: (1) Tell your followers to keep off the net. Such is their devotion in most cases, you should not incur too much in the way of membership losses from your EXISTING fan-base, but will not be enough to prevent damage to your future aspirant programs. (2) Prime your premies well by bad-mouting all internet-based ex's in public. This should help keep on board those few naughty ones who can't resist sneaking a peek behind the cyber-curtain. (3) Set up a small team of rock-solid Satchitanandroids with special permission to send anonymous messages to the forum on a daily basis, with the following explicit instructions. They must: - challenge every negative remark made about your good self. - challenge the personal integrity of all your ex's on the grounds that they (a) never devoted, or (b) failed to understand your teachings. - testify to the experience of infinite bliss they are enjoying on a day-to-day basis. They must NOT: - discuss any detail of your own life apart from your message. - talk about fund-raising / income issues. - get enticed into any rational debate over matters of a moral, philosophical, religious or scientific nature (though they may freely quote from your own addresses, or recount ancient parables as they see fit.) Well, as I said, that is only what I would do... And that's why you are you, paranoid and off the mark! And He's Devine. Ah the infinite bliss we do enjoy ! Oh the anguish of the finite mind that trys to anilize,but can not ! And therefore denies! Ps I've been instructed by no one with explicit instructions or otherwise, were do you get this stuff, the fiction part of the library? >I've been instructed by no one with explicit instructions or otherwise. Yes you have. Maharaj Ji said 'Stay off the net'. Do you pick and choose which instructions to follow? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Mar 2, 1998 at 21:36:03 (EST)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Dan Subject: Re: systematic damage limitation Message: Dan, Anyone reading your posts mihgt be excused for assuming that you were a 'good, dedicated' premie way back when. Come on, Dan, that would be fooling them, wouldn't it? Yes, you lived in the ashram a bit. My main memory of you is as someone who lived in the Ottawa community, attended satsang only sporadically (although you lived right behind the place) and never did much of anything all us straight shooters were sucked into. I remember you got in a big fight with your partner once, some sort of punch up over your 'love candle' company or whatever you called it. So this interests me. Some of the die-hards were 'good' premies, like Jack Tuff. An even larger number, it seems, were marginal guys like you. IF(and I'm saying one big 'IF' here) Maharaji really did call for all arms in service you weren't there, fella. You simply weren't there for him and you know it. Hey, how do I know? Simple. The only times you ever gave satsang was when you'd talk about the fact that you were living your life far out on you rown and blah, blah, blah...guilt. But, whatever, the plain truth is that you were a terrible premie. So what gives now? Is this your chance to make up for all the dedication and sacrifice you couldn't quite muster before? Lucky for you, Maharaji really is fake cause if he wasn't he'd have kicked your butt out of his eternal Astrodome years ago and you know it. I guess you can relax knowing that a good premie, these days, is a stupid one. Really listening and thinking about what that fattie says would drive anyone nuts. After all, he once made some sense on a God-Incarnate basis. Now he makes no sense at all. Better for you, then, to pretend that's how you like 'em. Tell me, Dan, do you think this is going to bear up for your last 25 to 40 years? As Maharaji fades further and further into mid-sixties trivial deritritus, are you going to continue to smile a goofy Alfred E. Neuman smirk at reality? Dan, the chances of you being engrossed in the 'infinite play of lord and devottee [sic]' are ridiculously small. Why not shake off the dust and enroll in a community college? It's never too late. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Mar 3, 1998 at 08:00:10 (EST)
Poster: Dan Email: crothfam@idirect.com To: Jim Subject: Re: systematic damage limitation Message: Well Jimbo I see a pattern in your posts there all lacking fact and substance and are fabricated to try & make your point ,must be the legal training, most lawyers are all full of BS , or was it all the drugs you took while living in the ashram ! Keep it up Jimbo eventually everyone else will see you as a lie as are most of your points made here! Dan Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Mar 1, 1998 at 17:16:08 (EST)
Poster: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: Everyone Subject: Posted with Paradise's Form Message: Here's the link to Paradise's form for starting a new thread again: Paradise's Form Gawd, I just love writing into this postage stamp... Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Mar 1, 1998 at 17:12:09 (EST)
Poster: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: Everyone Subject: Posted With Site Form Message: Here's the link to Paradise's form for starting a new thread: Paradise's Form Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Mar 1, 1998 at 02:32:55 (EST)
Poster: Mickey the Phairsee Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net To: Everyone Subject: End Time Guru! Message: With all the excitement of the coming twenty-first century, there has been a lot of eschatological talk from Christians and Doom-sayers and those crazy U.F.O. types. I was wondering if anyone is aware of any end-time teachings from the big M; I vaguely remember him stating that he was going to save us from the nuclear bombs, and I remember a lot of people insinuating that M was the parousia or Second Coming of Christ, but I don't remember any actual eschatological teachings. If you remember any, please post!! Enquiring minds want to know!!! Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Mar 1, 1998 at 09:29:04 (EST)
Poster: Scott T. Email: stalking@freewheeling.com To: Mickey the Phairsee Subject: Re: End Time Guru! Message: Mickey: In about 1980 I started to be concerned again that MJ might actually be the Messiah. I'd been away from K and MJ for about three years but still had not repudiated it in my mind. So I got the bright idea to send MJ a letter and simply ask him about his messianic status. Most who sent those kinds of letters got no reply, but I got an interesting response from someone in PAM. I may actually still have the letter somewhere, though am not sure. Anyway, the guy said that MJ definitely denies the concept that he is the Messiah, and the he is actually here "to keep people from getting seasick and throwing up so much." I got the impression that this quote was from a satsang that he had given, but am not sure. Anyway, it had some decidedly Sartre-like overtones to the statement so I figured he borrowed the concept of "nausea-at-the-core" from Jean Paul. It struck me as kind of a peculiar thing to say, but it was the real turning point for me. It was profoundly inconsistent with what he had been saying from 1973 to 1976. I still liked to meditate, but at that point I figured that he was probably no more enlightened than I was. I used to sort of pray to the guy, and would sometimes get angry with him for how things were going with me and with the world (thinking because he was the incantation of God the he was responsible). After that letter I stopped all of that. I have expressed the theory before, on this Forum, that MJ is basically conservative. He has a money-making machine and does not want to jeopardize that by gaining too many followers and getting the attention of clever detractors and governments (especially the IRS). I don't think he's ever again going to make a bid to became a messianic figure. Too risky, even though I'm sure his ego would be gratified. -Scott Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Mar 1, 1998 at 15:00:03 (EST)
Poster: John K. Email: To: Scott T. Subject: Re: End Time Guru! Message: That story of your letter is really quite amazing! Because at that time, like in the late 70's early 80's we were instructed in the ashram to sing arti which included the lines "our lord is the superior power in person..etc." Re: his conservative stance, I think you've nailed it correctly scott. He knows he has about as much of the pie as he is ever gonna get. Which is actually working out quite well for him. It fits right in with his lack of interest in a web presence. And in fact what could he possibly put on a web page? He really has no teachings. At least that I am aware of. There are of course these quotes that Jim can supply us with which would be hilarious to see on a web page for everyone to read carefully and actually try to digest. I love it that he is still talking about that impossible-to-understand-story of krishna and arjuna. It's such a perfect story for him to re-tell countless times because no one will ever understand it. I am starting to feel a great deal of compassion for him. Think of being locked into a belief that you are some deity. From when he was an infant people have been fawning all over him. What would you call that? an ego-impaired individual? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Mar 1, 1998 at 21:40:30 (EST)
Poster: Sir David Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk To: Anyone Subject: Re: End Time Guru! Message: Here's a few questions & answers between Shri Guru Maharaji & premies, 3rd August 1972 in Denver, Colorado. Very old I know but an indication of how things once were. PREMIE: Guru Maharaj Ji, if this is the end of the thousand year cycle, what happens when it's over? Will everybody have Knowledge? MAHARAJI: Well, there are many prophesies you know, really strong ones. One prophesy says that in the months of November and December of this year, in the last months of this year, truth is going to rule over evil. Another one says that that the time is very, very near. It has approached almost to the point where the Lord, the Lord who manifested Himself a long time ago, will now spark before the people. So one prophesy is like this and the other prophesy is like that, and there are other prophesies and I can see them all coming true. PREMIE: What does it feel like to be Lord of the Universe? MAHARAJI: No feeling, no feeling at all. One with the highest frequency. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Feb 28, 1998 at 21:10:00 (EST)
Poster: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: Everyone Subject: Test Thread Message: Let's see if I have any problems... probably won't screw up when I'm looking... that's the way it always seems to work... Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Mar 1, 1998 at 00:28:55 (EST)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Brian Subject: Pirate post! Wish I had a scanner (Re: Test Thread) Message: [Brian, I had to hijack a thread again. Please take a lesson from Bal Bhagwan Ji. According to this here book, 'when other disciples lagged in their work, he would become furious. But in the midst of sternly admonishing one unfortunate or, perhaps, blessed worker, he turned to another and said softly,'sometimes you ahve to shout, otherwise what we have to do will never get done.'] You guys should read some of the stuff in this Millenium program guide edition of And it is Divine. There's a big eight page spread on the Holy Family. Hindi-Disney fantasy land. Look I'm not going to do it. Okay, okay. I'll find a few things. About Shri Maharaj Ji (our present Lord's father): 'At the time of leaving his mortal body, Shri Sarupanand Ji proclaimed Shri Maharaj Ji to be the next Satguru. With each successive age, the Divine Spirit is manifesting in greater glory. Shri Maharaj Ji declared, 'Lord Ram was an incarnation of God, but he came with only fourteen powers. Lord Krishna was an incarnation of God, having sixteen types of divine powers. Richard Ramirez was the devil. [sorry, automatic typing I guess]. But this time I have come with all divine powers.' About Mata Ji: When his Perfect Master, Swami Sarupanand Ji, was still alive he had told Shri Maharaj Ji that he would remarry. Maharaj Ji had argued, 'How shall I know her? I can't go out looking for her.' Sarupanand Ji promised tshe she would approach him. From this marriage, Shri Maharaj Ji was told, would come four sons who would bring the Knowledge of truth to the four corners of the earth. The marriage was arranged. On her wedding day, a dazzlingly bejeweled Mata Ji glimpsed her beloved for the first time. She gazed upon a handsome, statuesque man sitting regally upon a white horse, wearing a msot beautiful crown. There was such joy in the hearts of all the villagers and devotees that day! Words cannot describe this occasion as the Lord, taking his holy wife, rode together in love's full radiance at the head of the wedding procession. Swami Sarupanand's prophecy was fulfilled. More later -- it IS Saturday night, after all. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Feb 28, 1998 at 20:58:07 (EST)
Poster: Nigel Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: Everyone Subject: Evolution / altrusism Message: I have experimented (see 'new posts / long posts' below) and discovered that my problem is the same as Mr Ex's and Jim's, ie. you can do LONG REPLIES but not LONG NEW THREADS. So I will have to reply to myself here... Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Feb 28, 1998 at 21:02:20 (EST)
Poster: Nigel Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: Nigel Subject: Re: Evolution / altrusism Message: I have experimented (see 'new posts / long posts' below) and discovered that my problem is the same as Mr Ex's and Jim's, ie. you can do LONG REPLIES but not LONG NEW THREADS. So I will have to reply to myself here... JW's (now archived) quote from the Leakey's sums up perfectly the problems with so-called 'evolutionary physchology': if all you have is a million-years-worth of flint axe-heads, there isn't much you can learn about our ancestors' thoughts, feelings, language or social relationships. It is a bit like those Dylan freaks who used to go through his garbage to try and work out what his songs were all about. The mind leaves no fossil record, and the evidence you must use in its place (comparisons with animals, heritability studies, 'cultural universals' etc.) tends to be seriously flawed in many cases. Darwin, after a lifetime of meticulous research (and always offering his critics the arguments that might prove him wrong), must be turning in his grave. I would just to offer some final thoughts by way of clarifying what I was trying to get over in a couple of earlier posts about alruism. (The whole thing is probably becoming a bit of a yawn, so I'll just say my piece and try to stay off the subject from now on.) My reason for posting at some length on 'altruism' is partly personal in that I have three adopted children. Evolutionary psychology (borrowing from biology) recognises only two mechanisms at work when people behave altruistically, 'kin selection' or 'reciprocal altruism'. When biologists use these terms to describe animal behaviour they have very specific meanings: 'kin' implies close biological relatedness, and 'reciprocal' means payback guaranteed ('you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours'). In each case 'altruism' refers to behaviour that is costly to the animal, but improving the chances of survival for another animal. As JW pointed out earlier, this a little different to the way the word is used in everyday life, but it is in this sense that evolutionary psychologists have adopted the term for use in describing human behaviour. So how valid are these theories in my own case? Parenthood is inherently altruistic in the biological sense, and I have no doubt at all that, like any 'biological' parent, I would risk my own life to save the lives of my children. Like any biological parent I consider my commitment to my kids to be 'unconditional', and since unconditional is the antithesis of 'reciprocal', reciprocal altruism cannot be the mechanism. But neither can it be kin selection, since my children do not carry my genes. I am certain there ARE biological factors involved in the way I feel about my kids, and some people might even say that the operational mechanism is still kin selection, but that my biology has somehow been tricked into accepting non-related offspring as my own. But when a theory has to make 'special cases', its integrity is weakened, and the special case you would have to make in this instance is essentially turning the theory on its head. 'We will only self-sacrifice to preserve our own genes.' is the central tenet of evolutionary psychology; '...except when we are self-sacrificing to preserve somebody else's genes' is the get-out clause. It is in this sense that I think the theory is seriously flawed. I for one prefer explanations that cite evolutionary theory rather than God as the source of all things bright and beautiful. But I would add you have to be just as circumspect when dealing with allegedly scientific theories as you do with any other brand of wishful thinking. ps - my problem is not with evolutionary theory, nor even with 'reciprocal altruism' in animals. It is with evolutionary psychologists whose 'findings' are almost wholly reliant upon leaps of faith. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Feb 28, 1998 at 23:08:24 (EST)
Poster: Scott T. Email: To: Nigel Subject: Re: Evolution / altrusism Message: Nigel: As always, excellent post. I've been haniging out with the Public Choice people, and with the Human Ecologists (the right and left-hand sides of the same methodological pre-disposition). They've made me sensitive to the possibility that what we are attempting to pass on is systems of rules. These are more important that genetic information because they evolve more quickly. They give us more power and control. Your children may not share your genes, but they share your outlook on the world... your personal and social rule systems and behavoiors. Just thinking. -Scott Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Feb 28, 1998 at 19:12:27 (EST)
Poster: John Cavad Email: johncavad@yahoo.com To: Everyone Subject: The Apostle Message: This is a fine movie to see: Euliss (Sonny) Dewey, played with foxy charm and volcanic energy by Robert Duvall in his lovely, heartfelt film "The Apostle," is a man of the cloth. But the cloth from which this Pentecostal preacher is cut may seem familiar at first (aka GMJ), at least in movie terms. As a white preacher whose specialty is rousing black churchgoers to a holy fury, Sonny does look like something of a flimflam artist. And behind the kindly manner and beatific smile we know there is a man with serious marital troubles. Does the equally devout Jessie (Farrah Fawcett) want to leave Sonny because of his wicked ways? Is Sonny's overbearing godliness merely a cynical trick? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Feb 28, 1998 at 19:05:04 (EST)
Poster: John Cavad Email: johncavad@yahoo.com To: Everyone Subject: Who Can WE Save? Our True Mission Message: Who can we save, as ex-premies? I get email from Aspirants with lots of questions - they have concerns. I spend lots of time on their behalf to save them from years of delusion and impending pain. If premies on the fence have doubts, we can save them too, or at least make the effort to try. I believe we can do our part to save them. But what about those zealot premies? No!!!! They are lost for now....maybe tomorrow they will come to us (as they think we'll come back to them)...maybe never. I think about how many good people I brought to GMJ. I feel so guilty at times (no, I'm not Jewish). I wronged so many people. I was also a key member on the Aspirant teams. Now I can right some of my wrongs. BUT, I won't waste my time or energy arguing with religious fanatics. You shouldn% Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Feb 28, 1998 at 19:16:39 (EST)
Poster: nigel Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: John Cavad Subject: Re: Who Can WE Save? Our True Mission Message: Who can we save, as ex-premies? I get email from Aspirants with lots of questions - they have concerns. I spend lots of time on their behalf to save them from years of delusion and impending pain. If premies on the fence have doubts, we can save them too, or at least make the effort to try. I believe we can do our part to save them. But what about those zealot premies? No!!!! They are lost for now....maybe tomorrow they will come to us (as they think we'll come back to them)...maybe never. I think about how many good people I brought to GMJ. I feel so guilty at times (no, I'm not Jewish). I wronged so many people. I was also a key member on the Aspirant teams. Now I can right some of my wrongs. BUT, I won't waste my time or energy arguing with religious fanatics. You shouldn% Again, John, I agree. Arguments don't change minds just like that (especially slanging matches), but sometimes, if you phrase the right question just SO, I believe the premies amongst us might take our message away with them and ponder it in their hearts... They will all have an Achilles Heel. Ease them out, the same way that other premies eased us in..? I dunno, maybe? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Feb 28, 1998 at 19:57:42 (EST)
Poster: Jim Email: To: John Cavad Subject: Re: Who Can WE Save? Our True Mission Message: John, being Jewish myself, I think I can comment on this (?). Isn't it all just a matter of conscience, then and now? I also did my share of propogation. Maybe we all did. One thing's for sure: if Maharaji was a fraud, even a little was way too much. But how can we possibly blame ourselves? We believed the trip and, unless you somehow believe you were wilfully blind to the truth (i.e. made a point of not finding out), your mistake is your defence. No mens rea. That would go for Maharaji too. If he really believed his bullshit AND did nothing to make sure he didn't learn otherwise, he too, in my opinion, would be off the hook. The problem, of course, is that he may well have known that he's not the saviour of mankind OR he may well have suppressed information that could have helped us see clearer ourselves. It's not a matter of 'just following orders' like some Nazi punk. There's no deep, social taboo against religion and devotion like there is against genocide. In our case, being true believers made us active agents in the scheme, just not culpable ones. On the other hand, if you were a real asshole.... Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Feb 28, 1998 at 20:57:48 (EST)
Poster: John Cavad Email: To: Jim Subject: Re: Who Can WE Save? Our True Mission Message: You're right, Jim. There was really no crime in acting the part of a religious salesman. We believed in our product and sold it with deep conviction quite well. No mens rea. I like that defense. We'll go with it. No, Jim, I wasn't preceived as a real asshole, not by others. But looking back on it I feel I was a real schmuck, and a mashugona of sorts. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Feb 28, 1998 at 22:26:06 (EST)
Poster: Sir David Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk To: Jim Subject: Re: Who Can WE Save? Our True Mission Message: I think my experience of propogation was pretty typical. I used to enjoy spreading the word, telling people about K and how it could help them in their lives and the look of hope and pleasure on their faces as I told them about it was a joy for me. And yet the other side of the coin was thinking that, hey wait a minute, I really can't expect these people to devote their whole lives etc etc. Living in the shram in Wolverhampton was a pretty strangle experience with an ashram sec who resembled Attila the Hun and forced morning arti, you know. But in the evening I enjoyed making friends and telling people about K. This was mainly because of the genuine human contact between those who desired to be helped and myself. It was more the good feeling between myself and those "new people" that I enjoyed. Certainly I believed I was doing the right thing to help them. But then sometimes I'd sit on my own and think, well this trip can also be very heavy at times and I don't want to let people get into all THAT. I remember some years later how I personally "brought someone to knowledge" and how could I felt about it. Because I thought she'd been saved by the Lord. The day she received K I remember crying while I gave satsang because I felt such love for her. And yet she never practised it. My tears were really a normal expression of love between two friends. The whole propogation trip had been put into my head by Maharaji. It was all hype. He wasn't going to save them. In contrast, a few months ago I showed another friend of mine two of the techniques of meditation and got really high and blissed out (can't think of another term, sorry) in the process. Maybe someone's trying to tell me something... Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Mar 1, 1998 at 02:23:38 (EST)
Poster: Mickey the Pharisee Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net To: Sir David Subject: Re: Who Can WE Save? Our True Mission Message: As the child of missionaries, I did propogation because I had that Evangelical background. I brought all my friends to satsang, anyone at work that I could convince, and even people I picked-up hitchhiking. Just like David, I felt that I was bringing them to the Lord. I had no problem with such activities. Fortunately, none of my friends received K; I was an unsuccessful prostylizer. I did have one experience in which I decided that propogation was wrong. One night at satsang I noticed that my younger brother and his high school buddies were there. They were getting in to it, and I started getting nervous. I really felt that it would be wrong for these 16 year olds to get involved, and I told my brother and his friends that they really should stay away until they were at least out of high school. It was one of those moments of clarity that would break through every now and then and finally helped me leave DLM and the big M. I believed this stuff and wanted to spread this Knowledge, but my faith weakened when I was endangering my brother. I don't think that we can convince people like A Premie, A Student, Diver Dan, and the notorious A TRUE PREMIE; they are full of that self-righteousness which flows from the true believer. But I do believe that we should warn aspirants and any doubting premies; anyone that we can help with self-examination and point towards reality makes this site even more worthwhile. Regards, Michael Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Mar 1, 1998 at 02:25:23 (EST)
Poster: Mickey the Pharisee Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net To: Sir David Subject: Re: Who Can WE Save? Our True Mission Message: As the child of missionaries, I did propogation because I had that Evangelical background. I brought all my friends to satsang, anyone at work that I could convince, and even people I picked-up hitchhiking. Just like David, I felt that I was bringing them to the Lord. I had no problem with such activities. Fortunately, none of my friends received K; I was an unsuccessful prostylizer. I did have one experience in which I decided that propogation was wrong. One night at satsang I noticed that my younger brother and his high school buddies were there. They were getting in to it, and I started getting nervous. I really felt that it would be wrong for these 16 year olds to get involved, and I told my brother and his friends that they really should stay away until they were at least out of high school. It was one of those moments of clarity that would break through every now and then and finally helped me leave DLM and the big M. I believed this stuff and wanted to spread this Knowledge, but my faith weakened when I was endangering my brother. I don't think that we can convince people like A Premie, A Student, Diver Dan, and the notorious A TRUE PREMIE; they are full of that self-righteousness which flows from the true believer. But I do believe that we should warn aspirants and any doubting premies; anyone that we can help with self-examination and point towards reality makes this site even more worthwhile. Regards, Michael Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Mar 1, 1998 at 02:26:44 (EST)
Poster: Mickey the Pharisee Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net To: Mickey the Pharisee Subject: Re: Who Can WE Save? Our True Mission Message: As the child of missionaries, I did propogation because I had that Evangelical background. I brought all my friends to satsang, anyone at work that I could convince, and even people I picked-up hitchhiking. Just like David, I felt that I was bringing them to the Lord. I had no problem with such activities. Fortunately, none of my friends received K; I was an unsuccessful prostylizer. I did have one experience in which I decided that propogation was wrong. One night at satsang I noticed that my younger brother and his high school buddies were there. They were getting in to it, and I started getting nervous. I really felt that it would be wrong for these 16 year olds to get involved, and I told my brother and his friends that they really should stay away until they were at least out of high school. It was one of those moments of clarity that would break through every now and then and finally helped me leave DLM and the big M. I believed this stuff and wanted to spread this Knowledge, but my faith weakened when I was endangering my brother. I don't think that we can convince people like A Premie, A Student, Diver Dan, and the notorious A TRUE PREMIE; they are full of that self-righteousness which flows from the true believer. But I do believe that we should warn aspirants and any doubting premies; anyone that we can help with self-examination and point towards reality makes this site even more worthwhile. Regards, Michael sorry about the double post...dis ting 'aint woikin right! Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Feb 28, 1998 at 18:57:35 (EST)
Poster: nigel Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: Webmaster Subject: long posts / new posts Message: Brian, since the forum went AWOL last week, a couple of regular posters (Mr Ex and Jim) have commented about being unable to start new threads. I don't have this problem, but I find I can't seem to post anything of more than about 200 words. I don't know whether it is my internet service provider or the forum problems. Could you, in your infintite mercy, please advise? Best wishes Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Feb 28, 1998 at 19:44:42 (EST)
Poster: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: nigel Subject: Re: long posts / new posts Message: Paradise's New Thread form is located on their server. Since the textarea for that form is the size of a postage stamp, I wrote a page with a bigger input box and have it located on ex-premie.org. That's where the link at the top of the index points to. If the site is unreachable due to routing problems, then the form can't be retrieved. Sometimes I can't get to the site either, and it bugs me because that's when I'm usually trying to update something there. But if the forum index comes up with the correct background and logo, you are probably able to access the site, since that is where the .gif files are located. Click on 'Home' at the top of the index and see if you can reach any other pages at the site. If you can't, it's either down, or you are having routing problems. As for the limit you seem to be experiencing, is it only on that form or on the reply form too? There's nothing that would limit you as far as I know. Nobody is blocked from posting or starting a thread. [shrug] Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Feb 28, 1998 at 20:27:30 (EST)
Poster: nigel Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: Brian Subject: Re: long posts / new posts Message: Paradise's New Thread form is located on their server. Since the textarea for that form is the size of a postage stamp, I wrote a page with a bigger input box and have it located on ex-premie.org. That's where the link at the top of the index points to. If the site is unreachable due to routing problems, then the form can't be retrieved. Sometimes I can't get to the site either, and it bugs me because that's when I'm usually trying to update something there. But if the forum index comes up with the correct background and logo, you are probably able to access the site, since that is where the .gif files are located. Click on 'Home' at the top of the index and see if you can reach any other pages at the site. If you can't, it's either down, or you are having routing problems. As for the limit you seem to be experiencing, is it only on that form or on the reply form too? There's nothing that would limit you as far as I know. Nobody is blocked from posting or starting a thread. [shrug] Thanks Brian, I'll experiment a bit and see. One strange thing that happens is that whenever my new post has failed to arrive (and I get this message about the 'data area being to large for the system call') I click on the 'back' button and find myself in a weird limbo-land that looks like the forum but has a few brief test messages (dated January the ninth) posted by yourself and somebody called 'God'. Can't say I have ever heard of him. Could you please advise? best wishes. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Feb 28, 1998 at 20:50:49 (EST)
Poster: nigel Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: the tone deaf but blissed out Subject: Re: long posts / new posts Message: I still can't get a new thread started with this post, so I'll try doing it as a reply. > Horrible songs The discussion about 'Satguru, your face is like the sun' has inspired me to compile my peronal list of all-time horrible devotional songs. Some of these I even hated at the time. I have listed them as a pop chart (ie., with the least horrible at number 10). Note how troubadour-by-special-appointment, Rich Neil has effortlessly siezed both the number 1 and number 3 positions. (1) I Love You, I Love You... (thank you for coming today). 'There you sat before us your silken hair flowing all around your shining face...' 'Something made me feel like I barely understood what a pearl-drop of perfection gleam could exist in one's eye, But the sparkle in your glance made my heart start to dance and my sky was lit up by a shooting star.' (Rich liked to cram the words in) (2) Never Ending Well (Maharaj Ji can) 'Who can make the wolf lie down in peace beside the helpless deer? Who forgives us every time that we forget why we are here? 'Who can make the planets spin, and move in cartwheels round the sun? Who can show us that the people living in the world are one?' (3) Dance, Dance, Dance 'Maharaj Ji gather us up in your dance When your feet move the mind shakes The word in our soul wakes You can dance on forever And nothing else matters' (4) Guru is the Father of All 'We were in the age of water, now's the Age of Air People, don't expect the Lord in robes and flowing hair He will come when and how he pleases, don't expect a thing We will know him by his word, now hear the children sing.' (5) Rock Me Maharaj Ji (and roll me tonight!) 'I was just a little child But Maya made my mind run wild Then Guru Maharaj Ji smiled And night-time turned to day' (6) Waiting the Word of the Master 'I'm listening to catch his orders In the very midst of the fight' (7) Love Me Tender (the Elvis tune performed live by Durga Ji circa 1979) (8) Our Father has Come (to lead us along the path of perfection) 'Please take control and make us all one.' (9) Surdas the Gardener 'What would you give for a flower that grows untouched by death? What would you give for the lotus that blossoms within your breath?' (10) Lord of the Universe 'Showed me the secret hidden deep within It was BRIGHTER THAN A THOUSAND SUNS...' Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Feb 28, 1998 at 21:17:21 (EST)
Poster: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: nigel Subject: Re: long posts / new posts Message: One strange thing that happens is that whenever my new post has failed to arrive (and I get this message about the 'data area being to large for the system call') I click on the 'back' button and find myself in a weird limbo-land that looks like the forum but has a few brief test messages (dated January the ninth) posted by yourself and somebody called 'God'. Can't say I have ever heard of him. Could you please advise? Obviously you've crossed over the fine line into my most personal prayers. Actually, the real answer is that I inherited two forums at Paradise (that I know of). The other one is one I use for testing purposes. Somehow Paradise has things confused (as hard as that is to believe). You somehow ended up in the other forum. Please don't ask how. And if you figure it out, don't tell me. My head already aches from knowing too many of these idiots' foulups... I just can't take another, Nigel! [grumble] Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Mar 1, 1998 at 04:35:55 (EST)
Poster: And On Anand Ji Email: aoa To: Brian Subject: Re: long posts / new posts Message: Paradise's New Thread form is located on their server. Since the textarea for that form is the size of a postage stamp, I wrote a page with a bigger input box and have it located on ex-premie.org. That's where the link at the top of the index points to. If the site is unreachable due to routing problems, then the form can't be retrieved. Sometimes I can't get to the site either, and it bugs me because that's when I'm usually trying to update something there. But if the forum index comes up with the correct background and logo, you are probably able to access the site, since that is where the .gif files are located. Click on 'Home' at the top of the index and see if you can reach any other pages at the site. If you can't, it's either down, or you are having routing problems. As for the limit you seem to be experiencing, is it only on that form or on the reply form too? There's nothing that would limit you as far as I know. Nobody is blocked from posting or starting a thread. [shrug] It is only on the "start a new thread" form -- the reply forms always work. The form that doesn't work returns a "socket not connected" error. To ensure maximum compatibility, try adding a "base href" tag to the header (before the ending "head" tag") that includes the absolute URL that references the document. That will force most relative pointers within the document to the correct host, when the server is contacted to deliver http to the client. You can also use the IP address instead of the domain, when specifying the URL(s) on that document. I'd be interested to see if making those corrections prevents the problem of not being able to start a new thread. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Mar 1, 1998 at 12:46:34 (EST)
Poster: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: And On Anand Ji Subject: Re: long posts / new posts Message: To ensure maximum compatibility, try adding a 'base href' tag to the header (before the ending 'head' tag') that includes the absolute URL that references the document. That will force most relative pointers within the document to the correct host, when the server is contacted to deliver http to the client. I'll make the change, but I think a far more likely possiblility is that Paradise has changed the parameters on the form - it would be just like them to not trap for the parameters expected. I copied their form, but have lost the link to the original (and probably modified) form. It's somewhere on their server... They drift into work around noon (PST) so I'll call them in a couple of hours and get the URL. If the form hasn't changed, I'll just add the BASE tag. But there are too many bizarre side effects being experienced by people here for it not to be a Paradise change thang... Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Mar 6, 1998 at 12:25:44 (EST)
Poster: And On Anand Ji Email: aoa To: Brian Subject: Re: long posts / new posts Message: To ensure maximum compatibility, try adding a 'base href' tag to the header (before the ending 'head' tag') that includes the absolute URL that references the document. That will force most relative pointers within the document to the correct host, when the server is contacted to deliver http to the client. I'll make the change, but I think a far more likely possiblility is that Paradise has changed the parameters on the form - it would be just like them to not trap for the parameters expected. I copied their form, but have lost the link to the original (and probably modified) form. It's somewhere on their server... They drift into work around noon (PST) so I'll call them in a couple of hours and get the URL. If the form hasn't changed, I'll just add the BASE tag. But there are too many bizarre side effects being experienced by people here for it not to be a Paradise change thang... I'll be looking for news from you on how it works out. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Feb 28, 1998 at 18:14:04 (EST)
Poster: John Cavad Email: johncavad@yahoo.com To: Everyone Subject: What is Jim Complaining About? Message: Well, I can start a new thread - for Jim, that is, since my PC is behaving well on this program. Jim, your eloquence is only surpassed by your litigiousness. Very well said, indeed. I agree with you all way (though I sincerely feel Katie is a true saint - in fact a cult should be formed around her). The premies (or zombies) are trying to destroy the integrity of this site by bringing us down to their level, wasting our time responding. We shouldn't even be acknowledging their intrusions into this site. Arguing futily with premies is not the purpose of this site. The mission of this ex-premie site is much greater and far reaching than all that nonsense. You know what really pisses them off? Quotes from "The Guru Papers." It's like throwing Holy Water at a vampire. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Feb 28, 1998 at 18:29:59 (EST)
Poster: Jim Email: To: John Cavad Subject: Re: What is Jim Complaining About? Message: John, Thanks for your support. You know, I LIKE arguing. Arguing's fun. It's just that it's got to be fair, that's all. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Feb 28, 1998 at 18:36:09 (EST)
Poster: And On Anand Ji Email: aoa To: John Cavad Subject: Re: What is Jim Complaining About? Message: Well, I can start a new thread - for Jim, that is, since my PC is behaving well on this program. Jim, your eloquence is only surpassed by your litigiousness. Very well said, indeed. I agree with you all way (though I sincerely feel Katie is a true saint - in fact a cult should be formed around her). The premies (or zombies) are trying to destroy the integrity of this site by bringing us down to their level, wasting our time responding. We shouldn't even be acknowledging their intrusions into this site. Arguing futily with premies is not the purpose of this site. The mission of this ex-premie site is much greater and far reaching than all that nonsense. You know what really pisses them off? Quotes from 'The Guru Papers.' It's like throwing Holy Water at a vampire. Agree. Here, here. To hell with practicing premies -- they deny their brains' own worth. To hell with people who don't think. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Feb 28, 1998 at 18:50:23 (EST)
Poster: Nigel Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: And On Anand Ji Subject: Re: What is Jim Complaining About? Message: Well, I can start a new thread - for Jim, that is, since my PC is behaving well on this program. Jim, your eloquence is only surpassed by your litigiousness. Very well said, indeed. I agree with you all way (though I sincerely feel Katie is a true saint - in fact a cult should be formed around her). The premies (or zombies) are trying to destroy the integrity of this site by bringing us down to their level, wasting our time responding. We shouldn't even be acknowledging their intrusions into this site. Arguing futily with premies is not the purpose of this site. The mission of this ex-premie site is much greater and far reaching than all that nonsense. You know what really pisses them off? Quotes from 'The Guru Papers.' It's like throwing Holy Water at a vampire. Agree. Here, here. To hell with practicing premies -- they deny their brains' own worth. To hell with people who don't think. Jim, John, AOAJ, Hell, you are all right! Buggered if I will ever try tussling with these people again. Life is too short for explaining the obvious to people who won't see it. Yours in His Eternal Grace, etc, etc... Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Feb 28, 1998 at 18:54:39 (EST)
Poster: John Cavad Email: johncavad@yahoo.com To: And On Anand Ji Subject: Re: What is Jim Complaining About? Message: Respecting people's right to have differing beliefs does not mean one must respect the beliefs themselves. Unfortunately, the concept of religious tolerance has come to include not being critical of others. Tolerance only works well if all the players play by the same rules. When some try to force their beliefs on others, how tolerant should one be of this? The problem with tolerating viewpoints which in themselves are intolerant is their aim to do away with tolerance. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Feb 28, 1998 at 19:07:25 (EST)
Poster: nigel Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: John Cavad Subject: Re: What is Jim Complaining About? Message: Respecting people's right to have differing beliefs does not mean one must respect the beliefs themselves. Unfortunately, the concept of religious tolerance has come to include not being critical of others. Tolerance only works well if all the players play by the same rules. When some try to force their beliefs on others, how tolerant should one be of this? The problem with tolerating viewpoints which in themselves are intolerant is their aim to do away with tolerance. Good point, John. I think where I draw the line between respecting and speaking out against the views of others is when that group is actively propapaging their message to the general public. If they go public then they must expect that public (you and I included) to criticise in the strongest possible terms, should they ever start speaking (if you'll pardon the Ango-Saxon) 'bollocks'. best wishes Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Feb 28, 1998 at 22:25:35 (EST)
Poster: John K. Email: kreilkamp@mindspring.com To: John Cavad Subject: Re: What is Jim Complaining About? Message: Everyone: Yes, I agree with what has been said on this topic. But, I am more of a pessimist. I think as long as premies make their comments then one of us will probably be roused to respond and try to make sense out of the statement. Or try to bring our own experience with The Master into the discussion. The problem though, as we are all painfully aware, is that the entire premie experience is not based on anything intelligent or rational or explainable. There is absolutely nothing to discuss about it. All it is is total faith in M as the Lord. M does not really teach anything to have a discussion about. So, yes, it is a total waste of time to discuss the whys and wherefores because premies can't explain it. They don't know why they still believe in M. They just do. They've made that committment, and actually I sincerely wish they would just go off and enjoy themselves forever staring at his form and listening to their devotional music. BTW, thanks to Mr. Ex for those quotes from that program. The one where M went on again - for his 25 straight year - about krishna and arjuna. I am so glad I am not stuck on that piece of land, wherever it is down under, with thousands of premies waiting around for darshan or the next satsang. Thank God and shout Amen! Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Mar 1, 1998 at 04:14:28 (EST)
Poster: And On Anand Ji Email: aoa To: -------- Subject: Re: What is Jim Complaining About? Message: The problem though, as we are all painfully aware, is that the entire premie experience is not based on anything intelligent or rational or explainable. There is absolutely nothing to discuss about it. Trying to teach a pig to sing doesn't work -- and it annoys the pig. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Mar 2, 1998 at 00:40:42 (EST)
Poster: JW Email: joger02@aol.com To: John Cavad Subject: Re: What is Jim Complaining About? Message: I wanted to chime in here and say that I sort of disagree with the consensus of this thread, except, I guess for Jim. If a premie wants to try and argue rationally about this stuff I think it's great. And I think it's great that ex-premies argue with them, except I think they should be drawn out first, because what they say sounds so nuts to any person with half a brain. Maybe this is my only criticism of Jim. I think it's better to draw them out a little BEFORE pointing out the irrationality and contradictions. But that 's just my opinion. Remember, this is the only internet site discussing Maharaji, at least since Maharaji banned the premie site. Anyone who is insterested in the subject on the internet ends up here. And the stuff the premies say, outside those oh-so-controlled aspirant programs, is excellent information for those people to know. Hell, I know we won't convince these people, but that's not the audience I'm concerned about. I couldn't care less that these people are deluded, it's people thinking about getting involved, or thinking about getting uninvolved that I'm concerned about. Take "A Premie" for example. I hope he or she returns, because he or she is the best example I have seen in a long time of how Maharaji's cult is undermined by his own followers. For example: 1. "A Premie" has admitted publicly that Maharaji's trip is all about devotion to HIM. If you will recall, the other premies who have posted here have denied that vehemently. And Maharaji doesn't talk about it anymore either because it scares new people off. Those premies and Maharaji just deceitfully go on saying that it's just about the experience of a beautiful place through meditation to lure people in. But A Premie is blowing that cover. An excellent development in my opinion, for people thinking about getting involved to know. 2. A Premie has also stated that you could have received knowledge and practice it for 20 years and STILL not experience what M has to offer. Another wonderful advertisement for M and his cult. A truly negative comment on the ability of Maharaji to do what he claims for people. I just love it that interested people would hear THAT! 3. A Premie's attitude is just obnoxious and gross enough that it's an excellent disincentive for anyone to want to associate with the likes of A Premie, and certainly is a terrible example of something to aspire to want to be. Just great advertisement for why NOT to follow Maharaji. All I can say is PLEASE, A Premie, PLEASE keep it up. You are much more effective of what we are trying to accomplish here than we ever could be! With more followers like you Maharaji would be even MORE obscure than he already is, if that's possible. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Feb 28, 1998 at 12:30:32 (EST)
Poster: nigel Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: Everyone Subject: Hey, hey, We're the zombies... Message: I found this psychological investigation from 1984 (Magaro, Miller, Sesto), comparing personality types of six types of traditional and non-traditional believer, including premies. (1) The Hare Krishnas were found to have a 'depressive personality' (2) The Intervarsity Christian Fellowship were also depressives (3) The Unitarian Church Members were found to be compulsive (4) The Bangor Theological Seminary had no distinct category (5 & 6) Both members of the Divine Light Mission and the International Meditation Society were found to be of the 'catatonic personality style'. Can't tell you exactly what that is supposed to mean unless I check out the whole research paper (I have only seen the abstract). Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Feb 28, 1998 at 12:38:15 (EST)
Poster: Jim Email: To: nigel Subject: Re: Hey, hey, We're the zombies... Message: Nigel, Please get the paper. For some reason, I don't recall seeing it mentioned in any premie publications. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Feb 28, 1998 at 14:17:57 (EST)
Poster: Nigel Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: Jim Subject: Re: Hey, hey, We're the zombies... Message: Nigel, Please get the paper. For some reason, I don't recall seeing it mentioned in any premie publications. I'll do my best. I have found a couple of others, so I'll try and get them as well. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Feb 28, 1998 at 14:45:28 (EST)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Nigel Subject: Katie -- whom I love dearly -- is wrong (Re: Hey, hey, We're the zombies...) Message: Sorry for cammandeering this thread but I can't seem to start a fresh one. Anyway, Nigel, please forgive me for bursting in with this public service announcement: Every now and then a few new Maharaji apologists join in. These days it's A Premie and Student. (Why don't people use their own names? It's not like this is an impotency support group or something...... hm, well maybe..). Anyway, these guys say this and that about Maharaji and we all invariably get drawn into these discussions on their terms. Katie, bless her heart, thinks this is good. It allows the premies to feel more comfortable and doesn't scare them away. I'd agree IF I was in jail and desperate for company and the only cellmate available was a premie. Hell,I'd say the same for any religion. Why scare away your only human contact? Just to be 'right'? That would truly be cutting off your nose to spite your face. Forget it. On the other hand, it's abundantly clear that we've all spent far too much of our lives on this stupid fraud known as Maharaji. I don't need or want to spend the rest of my years stirring and tasting this thin, ugly soup and I bet you guys don't either. Interesting to a point but, in the end, simply ridiculous. Look, don't get me wrong, I love it when the JW's (the other JW's) come over and waste an hour or so of my Saturday morning. It's fun ridiculing their religion. Kind of like slumming at the high end of the cable channels, watching a Big Truck derby or TNN. But, how much of my life can I spend doing that before the joke's on me? That's why I think the best approach with all these apologists is a direct one. Maharaji said he was the Lord Almighty, not once, a million times. (Well, maybe not a MILLION. Let's say 700 to 800 thousand). Like I mentioned yesterday, the And it is Divine I got had his personal greeting in the front saying just that: 'Dear Reader, By the grace of the Almighty Lord, we bring you the magazine And it is Divine. You will find this magazine very different from others, because it shows not only the suffering of the world, but also a way out for all humanity. There has never been a time when the Lord of Creation did not manifest Himself in human form, and come to this planet Earth to do away with evil and to spread the True Knowledge. ...... blah, blah, blah ' (Emphasis and the blahs all mine) So why waste time? There are two kinds of Maharaji apologists: those who can accept this quote and those who can't. Let's keep things really clear and sure, scare away at least half of these guys. Let them know that, at least at this one little place, we're still beating those great drums of satsang! Is that in their interest? I don't know! Who can really answer a question like that? I do know that at least you're being honest with yourself and that, I'm told, is supposed to count for something. Then that leaves us with the apologists who say He's the Lord, always has been, has neve denied it, whatever. I guess for them we need to collect some quotes from the other side of Maharaji's mouth. Scare them away too. Then we can enjoy the odd reminiscence but avoid getting caught up in these endless debates with people who aren't taking any responsibility for their own thoughts let alone words. Jim Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Feb 28, 1998 at 15:40:27 (EST)
Poster: Rick Email: rtaraday@hotmail.com To: Jim Subject: Re: Katie -- whom I love dearly -- is wrong (Re: Hey, hey, We're the zombies...) Message: Sorry for cammandeering this thread but I can't seem to start a fresh one. Anyway, Nigel, please forgive me for bursting in with this public service announcement: Every now and then a few new Maharaji apologists join in. These days it's A Premie and Student. (Why don't people use their own names? It's not like this is an impotency support group or something...... hm, well maybe..). Anyway, these guys say this and that about Maharaji and we all invariably get drawn into these discussions on their terms. Katie, bless her heart, thinks this is good. It allows the premies to feel more comfortable and doesn't scare them away. I'd agree IF I was in jail and desperate for company and the only cellmate available was a premie. Hell,I'd say the same for any religion. Why scare away your only human contact? Just to be 'right'? That would truly be cutting off your nose to spite your face. Forget it. On the other hand, it's abundantly clear that we've all spent far too much of our lives on this stupid fraud known as Maharaji. I don't need or want to spend the rest of my years stirring and tasting this thin, ugly soup and I bet you guys don't either. Interesting to a point but, in the end, simply ridiculous. Look, don't get me wrong, I love it when the JW's (the other JW's) come over and waste an hour or so of my Saturday morning. It's fun ridiculing their religion. Kind of like slumming at the high end of the cable channels, watching a Big Truck derby or TNN. But, how much of my life can I spend doing that before the joke's on me? That's why I think the best approach with all these apologists is a direct one. Maharaji said he was the Lord Almighty, not once, a million times. (Well, maybe not a MILLION. Let's say 700 to 800 thousand). Like I mentioned yesterday, the And it is Divine I got had his personal greeting in the front saying just that: 'Dear Reader, By the grace of the Almighty Lord, we bring you the magazine And it is Divine. You will find this magazine very different from others, because it shows not only the suffering of the world, but also a way out for all humanity. There has never been a time when the Lord of Creation did not manifest Himself in human form, and come to this planet Earth to do away with evil and to spread the True Knowledge. ...... blah, blah, blah ' (Emphasis and the blahs all mine) So why waste time? There are two kinds of Maharaji apologists: those who can accept this quote and those who can't. Let's keep things really clear and sure, scare away at least half of these guys. Let them know that, at least at this one little place, we're still beating those great drums of satsang! Is that in their interest? I don't know! Who can really answer a question like that? I do know that at least you're being honest with yourself and that, I'm told, is supposed to count for something. Then that leaves us with the apologists who say He's the Lord, always has been, has neve denied it, whatever. I guess for them we need to collect some quotes from the other side of Maharaji's mouth. Scare them away too. Then we can enjoy the odd reminiscence but avoid getting caught up in these endless debates with people who aren't taking any responsibility for their own thoughts let alone words. Jim I tried for days to find a way to comment on "Student" (even more arrogant than calling oneself "Teacher") and "Premie", but found their posts so dishonest and isidious that I just couldn't bring myself to do it. "Student" is hiding behind posturing as a yogi or saint in training; so much purity is just too much for my tainted soul. Get real. "Premie" is running a real cute game by avoiding any actual contact that will break the defenses that hold up his premie trip. You can't blame him... that's the nature of the organism. If someone insists on pretending, there isn't much you can do. I try to consider the fact that somewhere, there are people who care about these trods, and wish they would return to the human race. As bad as it is, it's still better than that brand of insanity. Who's to say what does the trick to end someone's involvement in the Guru. I figure if they're visiting this site,they either have some major doubts or can't keep away from the temptation of anger. It would be like me visiting the site of the KKK or Aryan Nation and getting into arguments with them. Why would I do it? Just so I could get good and pissed off and try some way to teach them a lesson, or frustrate them. If a person is truly into the Guru, then they'd spend their time meditating or doing service or hanging around premies. Not visiting premie.org. So you really have to question their motives. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Feb 28, 1998 at 18:42:27 (EST)
Poster: And On Anand Ji Email: aoa To: Jim Subject: Re: Katie -- whom I love dearly -- is wrong (Re: Hey, hey, We're the zombies...) Message: I'd agree IF I was in jail and desperate for company and the only cellmate available was a premie. Hell, I'd say the same for any religion. Why scare away your only human contact?You're keeping me in stitches! Hearty laughter heard in CT Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Mar 3, 1998 at 14:57:13 (EST)
Poster: Student Email: To: Jim Subject: Re: Katie -- whom I love dearly -- is wrong (Re: Hey, hey, We're the zombies...) Message: Sorry for cammandeering this thread but I can't seem to start a fresh one. Anyway, Nigel, please forgive me for bursting in with this public service announcement: Every now and then a few new Maharaji apologists join in. These days it's A Premie and Student. (Why don't people use their own names? It's not like this is an impotency support group or something...... hm, well maybe..). Anyway, these guys say this and that about Maharaji and we all invariably get drawn into these discussions on their terms. Katie, bless her heart, thinks this is good. It allows the premies to feel more comfortable and doesn't scare them away. I'd agree IF I was in jail and desperate for company and the only cellmate available was a premie. Hell,I'd say the same for any religion. Why scare away your only human contact? Just to be 'right'? That would truly be cutting off your nose to spite your face. Forget it. On the other hand, it's abundantly clear that we've all spent far too much of our lives on this stupid fraud known as Maharaji. I don't need or want to spend the rest of my years stirring and tasting this thin, ugly soup and I bet you guys don't either. Interesting to a point but, in the end, simply ridiculous. Look, don't get me wrong, I love it when the JW's (the other JW's) come over and waste an hour or so of my Saturday morning. It's fun ridiculing their religion. Kind of like slumming at the high end of the cable channels, watching a Big Truck derby or TNN. But, how much of my life can I spend doing that before the joke's on me? That's why I think the best approach with all these apologists is a direct one. Maharaji said he was the Lord Almighty, not once, a million times. (Well, maybe not a MILLION. Let's say 700 to 800 thousand). Like I mentioned yesterday, the And it is Divine I got had his personal greeting in the front saying just that: 'Dear Reader, By the grace of the Almighty Lord, we bring you the magazine And it is Divine. You will find this magazine very different from others, because it shows not only the suffering of the world, but also a way out for all humanity. There has never been a time when the Lord of Creation did not manifest Himself in human form, and come to this planet Earth to do away with evil and to spread the True Knowledge. ...... blah, blah, blah ' (Emphasis and the blahs all mine) So why waste time? There are two kinds of Maharaji apologists: those who can accept this quote and those who can't. Let's keep things really clear and sure, scare away at least half of these guys. Let them know that, at least at this one little place, we're still beating those great drums of satsang! Is that in their interest? I don't know! Who can really answer a question like that? I do know that at least you're being honest with yourself and that, I'm told, is supposed to count for something. Then that leaves us with the apologists who say He's the Lord, always has been, has neve denied it, whatever. I guess for them we need to collect some quotes from the other side of Maharaji's mouth. Scare them away too. Then we can enjoy the odd reminiscence but avoid getting caught up in these endless debates with people who aren't taking any responsibility for their own thoughts let alone words. Jim I understand. It is probably tiring to participate in constant disagreement when your goal is to convince someone else that they are wrong. We should just let birds of a feather flock. I'll sharpen my communication and interpretive skills elsewhere. Regards, Student Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Mar 3, 1998 at 16:04:35 (EST)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Student Subject: Re: Katie -- whom I love dearly -- is wrong (Re: Hey, hey, We're the zombies...) Message: >I understand. It is probably tiring to participate in >constant disagreement when your goal is to convince >someone else that they are wrong. We should just let birds >of a feather flock. Argument's not tiring, anymore than playing tennis. It's just tiring playing with people who won't abide by the rules. Here, that means admitting the obvious, allowing your 'opponent' to score fair and square and following the logic. Premies don't have the courage or integrity to do that. I once thought that, to the extent one could generalize, we premies were quite noble and honest. I now see, sadly enough, how the truth is far less flattering. >I'll sharpen my communication and interpretive skills elsewhere. Please do. Get lost and don't come back until you can talk about Maharaji honestly. Jim Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Mar 6, 1998 at 16:43:44 (EST)
Poster: And On Anand Ji Email: aoa To: Jim Subject: Re: Katie -- whom I love dearly -- is wrong (Re: Hey, hey, We're the zombies...) Message: Argument's not tiring, anymore than playing tennis. It's just tiring playing with people who won't abide by the rules. Here, that means admitting the obvious, allowing your 'opponent' to score fair and square and following the logic.Right. Well said. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Feb 28, 1998 at 12:28:22 (EST)
Poster: nigel Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: Everyone Subject: Question for Student Message: Before the archive you posted to me about other faiths, suggesting that religions from when the master dies and things 'stagnate' (whatever that means). Why should this be? - I can think of only two possiblilities: (1) Such movements (M's included) were never anything more than personality cults. (2) God is playing hide-and-seek. At any given moment you will find, at a conservative estimate, one hundred spiritual leaders claiming to be the sole living embodiment / representative of God. Obviously 99 of these must be either bluffing or misguided. In the light of this, the chosen few, from the planet's seven-odd billion people must be very fortunate indeed to find the 'real thing'. It seems pretty tough on those who either wind up with a fake messiah, or - as is the case with most people on the planet - will never even hear of Guru Maharaj Ji. I think we must either accept explanation (1), or else concede that God move in very mysterious ways indeed. Wouldn't you agree? regards Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Mar 2, 1998 at 14:18:55 (EST)
Poster: Student Email: To: nigel Subject: Re: Question for Student Message: Before the archive you posted to me about other faiths, suggesting that religions from when the master dies and things 'stagnate' (whatever that means). Why should this be? - I can think of only two possiblilities: (1) Such movements (M's included) were never anything more than personality cults. (2) God is playing hide-and-seek. At any given moment you will find, at a conservative estimate, one hundred spiritual leaders claiming to be the sole living embodiment / representative of God. Obviously 99 of these must be either bluffing or misguided. In the light of this, the chosen few, from the planet's seven-odd billion people must be very fortunate indeed to find the 'real thing'. It seems pretty tough on those who either wind up with a fake messiah, or - as is the case with most people on the planet - will never even hear of Guru Maharaj Ji. I think we must either accept explanation (1), or else concede that God move in very mysterious ways indeed. Wouldn't you agree? regards One definition of cult: a group of people who share an enthusiasm. Question: Are premies enthused about anything more than Maharaji's personality? Since my answer is yes, I reject option 1. Option 2...God moving in mysterious ways...I don't know. To me, God is unlimited, therefore undefinable. Since I am human and would like to have some description for my logical mind: God is a perfect, beautiful mystery that cannot and does not need to be solved, only appreciated and adored. I don't believe science or any logic can ever "solve" the mystery of God. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Mar 2, 1998 at 17:50:42 (EST)
Poster: nigel Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: Student Subject: Will the real God please sit down... (Re: Question for Student) Message: Before the archive you posted to me about other faiths, suggesting that religions from when the master dies and things 'stagnate' (whatever that means). Why should this be? - I can think of only two possiblilities: (1) Such movements (M's included) were never anything more than personality cults. (2) God is playing hide-and-seek. At any given moment you will find, at a conservative estimate, one hundred spiritual leaders claiming to be the sole living embodiment / representative of God. Obviously 99 of these must be either bluffing or misguided. In the light of this, the chosen few, from the planet's seven-odd billion people must be very fortunate indeed to find the 'real thing'. It seems pretty tough on those who either wind up with a fake messiah, or - as is the case with most people on the planet - will never even hear of Guru Maharaj Ji. I think we must either accept explanation (1), or else concede that God move in very mysterious ways indeed. Wouldn't you agree? regards One definition of cult: a group of people who share an enthusiasm. Question: Are premies enthused about anything more than Maharaji's personality? Since my answer is yes, I reject option 1. Option 2...God moving in mysterious ways...I don't know. To me, God is unlimited, therefore undefinable. Since I am human and would like to have some description for my logical mind: God is a perfect, beautiful mystery that cannot and does not need to be solved, only appreciated and adored. I don't believe science or any logic can ever 'solve' the mystery of God. Thanks for the post. I'll take your reply as a 'no comment'. You concluded: > I don't believe science or any logic can ever 'solve' the mystery of God. Too true. Neither can my twin masters of science and logic analyze the mysterious nature of pixies, werewolves and goblins. Yet this sad failing on their part does not incline me in the least to believe in such entities. But God is not now my problem (praise the lord). There are, as you must be aware, a good few ex's here - whose views I respect - still believing in God, or even still believing in a God that may be experienced through meditation; it is just that, like me, they have dropped the perfect master nonsense, and are so much happier for it. My question was simply addressing the absurdity and seeming immorality of an 'apostolic succession' of living lords who pop up now and again throughout the ages; sometimes here, sometimes there, usually in India or Nepal, and sometimes - if you're lucky - twice in a row in the same family (Shri Daddy and the kosmic kid). Meanwhile the rest of the planet's billions face their everyday crises, famines, natural disasters and wars, while some tiny (by global standards) sect congratulate themselves on being lucky enough to have found the living lord. Who would set up such a monstrous system - God or the gurus themselves? Why can there only be one master at a time? Wouldn't it make more sense to have a living lord in every town and village? - you know, true omnipresence, omnipotence and omniscience, and all on your local bus-route. But there ARE in fact many living lords (too bloody many if you ask me). And, be honest now, how would you tell the real thing? 'Feels good - must be God'? I bet you Moonies feel good and 'know God'; I bet you Heaven's Gate felt good and knew God; I once knew a Krishna devotee who was positively blissful (insane too, unfortunately). I knew a pair of Rajneeshis very well indeed, and they felt VERY good from having a living lord who encouraged promiscuous sex between prayers and suppertime but then he died, and that was the end of that. Most people seem to stick (get stuck?) with the first living messiah they get involved with - so it is not as if they have even tried them all out first, or would that be a bit too scientific?. Check out some of the other ex-cult websites. You'll be amazed / appalled by how similar devotees' earlier experiences were with one another, and how similar is their current disillusionment. Did you ever see the 'Heaven's Gate video?' - hours before the ritual suicide these guys looked and spoke EXACTLY like premies: 'It's so incredible what Mo [Applewhite] has done for me. I am so unworthy of his love' etc., etc. - all dewey-eyed and blissfully smiley. (This is actually a bit of a red-herring - I don't believe Elan Vital is about to do a 'Jonestown' - the set-up is too different - but the psychological processes are pretty much the same.) Maharaj Ji had a powerful grip over my whole life for many years, and - I don't mean to sound patronising here - I spoke exactly the same language as you, using the same get-out-of-any-argument expressions about the experience being beyond analysis, and M, as 'giver' of that experience being beyond reproach, criticism or any of the normal criteria we use to judge our fellow human beings. Step back a little and the whole thing becomes a grotesque comedy. I have now spent as many years away from this sick charade, and can only say that my experience of LIFE has become richer and deeper in every conceivable way. Given that 90% of all of Maharaj Ji's followers have now left the movement, I think you will find that a great many other people share my perspective - if not of God, then certainly of Maharaj Ji. (I have just read Mr Ex's transcript of the Amaroo thing way up above - and I really cannot believe I used to hang on to that guy's every word. Talk about vacuous!) Regards Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Mar 2, 1998 at 23:40:49 (EST)
Poster: shri daddy and the Email: ** To: nigel Subject: cosmic kid (Re: Question for Student) Message: good grief Nigel, I was going to avoid the threads the new guys were in but you responders are so funny and smart I can't resist reading. I must say ditto to On and Anand Ji in his applause. Luckily I feel free of the compulsion to join in. I get too hot and I'm not needed anyway. Your right about the moonies, I have some quotes from them coming up---------whenever. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Mar 3, 1998 at 14:32:04 (EST)
Poster: Student Email: To: nigel Subject: Re: Will the real God please sit down... (Re: Question for Student) Message: Your description of the "system" of perfect masters only seems absurd to me if I step outside of the Christian culture that I was raised around and ignore my relationship with Maharaji. Although I am not a Christian, I often look through the familiar Christian lens. Jesus' life as a master, his relationship with his disciples and audiences...these things are easily accepted by 90% of the people around me. They would never see the master-disciple "system" as absurd. I read their devotional t-shirts every day. Granted, they also are not usually open to considering the existence of any other masters, even though there are references throughout the Bible to the return of the Master. You pose the question: how is one supposed to know the real from the fraud? I won't be swayed from my relationship with Maharaji, but the only answer I can give you comes not from me but from the Bible: You will know him by his fruits...the fulfillment that is felt. Logical minds can always be deceived. You may say emotional people are easily deceived. Just don't trust any master if you see no fruits. You won't risk being hurt. Examine the grotesque comedy from where you stand and criticize to your heart's content. I'll meditate and sing to Maharaji to my heart's content. Respectfully, Student Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Mar 3, 1998 at 15:58:18 (EST)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Student Subject: Re: Will the real God please sit down... (Re: Question for Student) Message: Student, You put that name to shame. Why not call yourself 'believer' instead? Every so-called spiritual leader makes his suckers feel good, or so they think. That's why they're leaders. You know that. You also know that you don't accept that justification from anyone who follows any of the other cult-lords. Your refusal to think clearly diminishes your introspection and allows you to indulge in such profound hypocrisy. No? Well test my point. What do you think of Ron Hubbard? How about Marshall Applewhite? Moon? Guru Mayi? A little Jim Jones, par chance? If you say you have no opinion, you're simply a liar. If you say you think they're frauds, deal with the fact that they certainly satsify their people just like Maharaji does you. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Mar 3, 1998 at 19:26:55 (EST)
Poster: ncl ** sort of british person Email: red.demon@crow.stuff To: ** compliments @bb Subject: Re: cosmic kid (Re: Question for Student) Message: good grief Nigel, I was going to avoid the threads the new guys were in but you responders are so funny and smart I can't resist reading. I must say ditto to On and Anand Ji in his applause. Luckily I feel free of the compulsion to join in. I get too hot and I'm not needed anyway. Your right about the moonies, I have some quotes from them coming up---------whenever. Hi Bill, I should have told you I can't take compliments, or give them either. But having said that, your own posts are like streams of bat's piss in that 'they shine out like shafts of gold when all around is darkness' (c. Monty Python 1972). With or without the 'bb' or the '**' or the jumbling of title stuff about, your posts are totally recognisable and always COOL. There was one you did about a month ago had me in stitches. I can't quote chapter and verse but it was the one that went 'I used to be a christian scientist, but...' etc., etc. toodle pip Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Mar 6, 1998 at 16:09:16 (EST)
Poster: Scott T. Email: To: Student Subject: Re: Will the real God please sit down... (Re: Question for Student) Message: Student: You will probably never see this way down here, but thought I'd post it anyway. Regarding: You pose the question: how is one supposed to know the real from the fraud? I won't be swayed from my relationship with Maharaji, but the only answer I can give you comes not from me but from the Bible: You will know him by his fruits...the fulfillment that is felt. It may not strike you as a real test but it occurred to me to simply ask him about his status as the present incarnation in the "string." In a letter that came directly from his residence, which I assume he dictated or had acknowledged in some way, he completely repudiated the idea that he was some sort of savior or messiah. That pretty much settled the matter for me. If there is such a string of messianic messengers by his own testimony he doesn't belong to it. In other words, he sometimes denies and sometimes affirms, whatever is convenient. As I recall, it was not especially convenient for Jesus to affirm his status before Pilate, or Ciaphus [sp?]. -Scott Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Mar 6, 1998 at 18:52:01 (EST)
Poster: Mr Ex Email: To: Scott T. Subject: Hari is no Messiah ! (Re: Question for Student) Message: That was your mistake! The Creator is no Messiah. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Feb 28, 1998 at 11:33:03 (EST)
Poster: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: Everyone Subject: Archives online Message: The archive is available now for reading online. I have changed it so that only the last 2 archives are available as .HTM files, while all are available as .ZIP files. Freed up a bit of disk space that way. This last one was a bit dog-eared. I was able to include some of the posts that were sent to me, and to re-construct others from quoted posts. But there are a few threads that lack a starting post. The index reflects the missing thread-starts. All in all, I'm glad to have this one behind me. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Feb 28, 1998 at 08:23:54 (EST)
Poster: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: Everyone Subject: Forum Reset Message: Okay, here's a squeaky-clean forum. I'll get the archive online soon. I was sent some of the missing posts, but will have to see what can be included. Should be before noon (EST). Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Feb 28, 1998 at 10:48:01 (EST)
Poster: And On Anand Ji Email: jimmy olsen cub reporter To: Brian Subject: Re: Forum Reset Message: Okay, here's a squeaky-clean forum. I'll get the archive online soon. I was sent some of the missing posts, but will have to see what can be included. Should be before noon (EST). Right, Chief. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Feb 28, 1998 at 13:19:38 (EST)
Poster: And On Anand Ji Email: aoa To: Jim Subject: Re: Devotion and Interested People (Re: Forum Reset) Message: Date: Fri, Feb 27, 1998 at 20:51:13 (EST) Poster: Jim To: A premie Subject: Re: Devotion and Interested People Message: Premie, You're acting like an idiot. Please, let me explain. If you trusted someone on normal, rational human terms, you'd have certain expectations. Think about it. No expectations, no trust. Anyway, if they disappointed you in any respect your trust would suffer. Right? They're not living up to your expectations, time to re-evaluate. Now -- and here's why I say, with all due respect of course, that you're acting like an idiot -- we old-timers once gave Maharaji the ultimate benefit of the doubt. We trusted him and, yes, we expected certain things. What did we expect? Well, one thing was that he knew what the fuck he was talking about, pardonnez-moi. When he said he was finally here, not just some dumb-fuck guru but the big kahonna, the mother ship, the guru of all gurus, here for the final blast through Kali Yuga and on in to the Age of Light and Love, when he said all that, we believed him.
Laughter heard in Connecticut
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