Ex-Premie.Org

Forum II Archive # 8

From: Feb 28, 1998

To: Mar 7, 1998

Page: 2 Of: 5


nigel -:- publish (and be damned) -:- Thurs, Mar 5, 1998 at 15:22:48 (EST)
___John K. -:- Re: publish (and be damned) -:- Thurs, Mar 5, 1998 at 15:55:12 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: publish (and be damned) -:- Thurs, Mar 5, 1998 at 16:01:55 (EST)
___Joy -:- Re: publish (and be damned) -:- Thurs, Mar 5, 1998 at 19:02:28 (EST)
___Steve A -:- Re: publish (and be damned) -:- Fri, Mar 6, 1998 at 01:19:27 (EST)
___Mickey the Pharisee -:- Re: publish (and be damned) -:- Fri, Mar 6, 1998 at 02:31:39 (EST)
___Nigel -:- Re: publish (and be damned) -:- Fri, Mar 6, 1998 at 15:29:51 (EST)

nigel -:- holy blow job -:- Thurs, Mar 5, 1998 at 15:20:25 (EST)
___blown away -:- Re: holy blow job -:- Thurs, Mar 5, 1998 at 19:05:21 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: holy blow job -:- Thurs, Mar 5, 1998 at 21:38:23 (EST)
___And On Anand Ji -:- Re: holy blow job -:- Fri, Mar 6, 1998 at 13:37:57 (EST)
___And On Anand Ji -:- Re: holy blow job -:- Fri, Mar 6, 1998 at 13:44:02 (EST)

Jim -:- There is no Katie! -:- Thurs, Mar 5, 1998 at 12:58:16 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: There is no Katie! -:- Thurs, Mar 5, 1998 at 13:10:21 (EST)
___John K. -:- Re: There is no Katie! -:- Thurs, Mar 5, 1998 at 13:31:23 (EST)
___David -:- Re: There is no Katie! -:- Thurs, Mar 5, 1998 at 13:42:58 (EST)
___anybrain -:- Re: There is no Katie! -:- Thurs, Mar 5, 1998 at 14:10:17 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: There is no Katie! -:- Thurs, Mar 5, 1998 at 14:12:40 (EST)
___autonomy -:- care this sect -:- Thurs, Mar 5, 1998 at 14:15:36 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: There is no Katie! -:- Thurs, Mar 5, 1998 at 14:29:41 (EST)
___Student -:- Re: There is no Katie! -:- Thurs, Mar 5, 1998 at 15:21:09 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: There is no Katie! -:- Thurs, Mar 5, 1998 at 15:43:21 (EST)
___John K. -:- Re: There is no Katie! -:- Thurs, Mar 5, 1998 at 16:06:55 (EST)
___Jim -:- Re: There is no Katie! -:- Thurs, Mar 5, 1998 at 16:08:34 (EST)
___Jim -:- Re: There is no Katie! -:- Thurs, Mar 5, 1998 at 16:08:48 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: There is no Katie! -:- Thurs, Mar 5, 1998 at 16:11:06 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: There is no Katie! -:- Thurs, Mar 5, 1998 at 16:19:52 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: There is no Katie! -:- Thurs, Mar 5, 1998 at 16:23:37 (EST)
___John K. -:- Re: There is no Katie! -:- Thurs, Mar 5, 1998 at 16:28:20 (EST)
___Jim -:- Re: There is no Katie! -:- Thurs, Mar 5, 1998 at 16:32:19 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: There is no Katie! -:- Thurs, Mar 5, 1998 at 17:00:05 (EST)
___Fishlips -:- What the fuck -:- Thurs, Mar 5, 1998 at 17:39:08 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: There is no Katie! -:- Thurs, Mar 5, 1998 at 18:19:36 (EST)
___Jim -:- Re: There is no Katie! -:- Thurs, Mar 5, 1998 at 18:32:38 (EST)
___David -:- Re: There is no Katie! -:- Thurs, Mar 5, 1998 at 19:55:23 (EST)
___David -:- Re: There is no Katie! -:- Thurs, Mar 5, 1998 at 20:00:47 (EST)
___Scott T. -:- There is no Leonard Zelig -:- Thurs, Mar 5, 1998 at 22:32:27 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: There is no Leonard Zelig -:- Fri, Mar 6, 1998 at 02:04:34 (EST)
___Mickey the Pharisee -:- Re: There is no Katie! -:- Fri, Mar 6, 1998 at 02:24:09 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: There is no Leonard Zelig -:- Fri, Mar 6, 1998 at 02:48:43 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: There is no Leonard Zelig -:- Fri, Mar 6, 1998 at 03:16:50 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: There is no Katie! -:- Fri, Mar 6, 1998 at 03:33:22 (EST)
___David -:- Talking to a brick wall -:- Fri, Mar 6, 1998 at 04:18:13 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: Talking to a brick wall -:- Fri, Mar 6, 1998 at 06:48:59 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: There is no Katie! -:- Fri, Mar 6, 1998 at 08:41:20 (EST)
___Scott T. -:- Re: There is no Leonard Zelig -:- Fri, Mar 6, 1998 at 11:06:56 (EST)
___Mickey the Pharisee -:- Re: There is no Katie! -:- Fri, Mar 6, 1998 at 11:57:35 (EST)
___Katie -:- Ratzinger and Matthew Fox -:- Fri, Mar 6, 1998 at 12:02:08 (EST)
___Scott T. -:- Re: There is no Leonard Zelig -:- Fri, Mar 6, 1998 at 12:03:21 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: Ratzinger and Matthew Fox -:- Fri, Mar 6, 1998 at 13:24:11 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: There is no Katie! -:- Fri, Mar 6, 1998 at 13:29:00 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: There is no Leonard Zelig -:- Fri, Mar 6, 1998 at 13:41:54 (EST)
___And On Anand Ji -:- Re: There is no Katie! -:- Fri, Mar 6, 1998 at 14:20:04 (EST)
___And On Anand Ji -:- Re: There is no Katie! -:- Fri, Mar 6, 1998 at 14:24:17 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: Ratzinger and Matthew Fox -:- Fri, Mar 6, 1998 at 14:39:17 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: Ratzinger and Matthew Fox -:- Fri, Mar 6, 1998 at 14:52:20 (EST)
___Scott T. -:- Geography, St. Helens -:- Fri, Mar 6, 1998 at 14:59:29 (EST)
___Mickey the Pharisee -:- Re: Ratzinger and Matthew Fox -:- Fri, Mar 6, 1998 at 16:07:11 (EST)
___Milistew -:- There is no Katie! -:- Fri, Mar 6, 1998 at 16:12:55 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: Ratzinger and Matthew Fox -:- Fri, Mar 6, 1998 at 16:17:13 (EST)
___willbee -:- Re: Talking to a brick wall -:- Fri, Mar 6, 1998 at 16:18:25 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: Ratzinger and Matthew Fox -:- Fri, Mar 6, 1998 at 16:20:23 (EST)
___Mickey the Pharisee -:- Re: There is no Katie! -:- Fri, Mar 6, 1998 at 16:26:10 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: There is no Katie! -:- Fri, Mar 6, 1998 at 16:39:47 (EST)
___John K. -:- Re: Ratzinger and Matthew Fox -:- Fri, Mar 6, 1998 at 16:45:09 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: There is no Katie! -:- Fri, Mar 6, 1998 at 16:48:28 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: Ratzinger and Matthew Fox -:- Fri, Mar 6, 1998 at 17:04:26 (EST)
___And On Anand Ji -:- Re: There is no Katie! -:- Fri, Mar 6, 1998 at 18:28:23 (EST)
___And On Anand Ji -:- Re: Talking to a brick wall -:- Fri, Mar 6, 1998 at 21:04:00 (EST)
___David -:- Re: Talking to a brick wall -:- Fri, Mar 6, 1998 at 21:47:15 (EST)
___David -:- Re: Talking to a brick wall -:- Fri, Mar 6, 1998 at 21:56:29 (EST)
___And On Anand Ji -:- Re: Talking to a brick wall -:- Fri, Mar 6, 1998 at 22:39:48 (EST)
___Loophole in the -:- Internet -:- Sat, Mar 7, 1998 at 01:20:02 (EST)
___Mili the -:- Pushy Sperm -:- Sat, Mar 7, 1998 at 01:30:28 (EST)
___Angel expert -:- Ratzinger and Matthew Fox -:- Sat, Mar 7, 1998 at 01:37:33 (EST)
___CD -:- Re: Pushy Sperm -:- Sat, Mar 7, 1998 at 02:10:10 (EST)
___robot -:- Sperm -:- Sat, Mar 7, 1998 at 02:24:25 (EST)
___Robotic -:- DNA -:- Sat, Mar 7, 1998 at 02:29:40 (EST)
___And On Anand Ji -:- Re: Internet -:- Sat, Mar 7, 1998 at 13:32:55 (EST)



Date: Thurs, Mar 5, 1998 at 15:22:48 (EST)
Poster: nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Everyone
Subject: publish (and be damned)
Message:
The more I browse the archives the more I think somebody should write/compile a book about Maharaj Ji and Knowledge based on the things that have been contributed both to this forum and to the main website. There is a lot of fascinating stuff that really deserves a wider audience. Some of people’s individual Journeys are very moving; many of the hundreds of posts to the forum are very informative and often funny. Mr Ex’s inside-knowledge is an absolute goldmine, and the Mishler interview is also worthy of wider circulation. Contributions from practising premies are also valuable in illustrating the premie mind-set - something it might otherwise be hard to reconstruct after many years out of the scene. What is the copyright status of materials sent to a public forum? I guess you could always seek permission from people who have email addresses, but I suppose anything that’s been submitted anonymously can be treated as public domain. I’m sure you would find a publisher somewhere, in Britain at least, if not in the States, especially with the millenium coming around and all these bouts of ritual cult stupidity in the news. Even casual readers might be interested, at least over here, since most older people will still remember the news footage of ‘boy-god’ Maharaj Ji being paraded around London bedecked with flowers, and his promises to establish world peace. The internet is a wonderful thing, but it will be many years yet before most people even in the western world are wired up. In the meantime a book might be the perfect medium for sharing a little anti-satsang with a wider public. What do you reckon? - and does anybody feel like taking up the challenge?
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Mar 5, 1998 at 15:55:12 (EST)
Poster: John K.
Email:
To: nigel
Subject: Re: publish (and be damned)
Message:
Actually, the same thought has occured to me, I just don't have the time, and I probably don't have the interest either in that kind of publicity. As proud as I say I am that I joined in a movement to bring peace to the world, the cold hard facts of what I actually did on a day to day basis in the ashram I am not so proud of. It would be fun though and I think fairly simple to compile a book. There is certainly no shortage of material. Hells bells, we could publish 20 books probably. Here's a few ideas for the titles: "1970 - 1974 - The First Years in the West - The Lord of the Universe in Early Puberty" "1974 - 1976 - Marriage and a return to normalcy" "1976 - 1983 - Love, Surrender, and Devotion. The Heavy Years."
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Mar 5, 1998 at 16:01:55 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: nigel
Subject: Re: publish (and be damned)
Message:
Nigel, aren't you writing a book right now? What about you? I would collaborate with you - I am a part-time freelance technical writer (which has ruined my style but not my clarity)- and possibly others would as well.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Mar 5, 1998 at 19:02:28 (EST)
Poster: Joy
Email: Bluebirdd@aol.com
To: nigel
Subject: Re: publish (and be damned)
Message:
Sounds like a good idea, Nigel! I could help with the typesetting/graphics end of it, as an atonement for all the years I put in producing AIID, Divine Times and Divine Light magazine.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Mar 6, 1998 at 01:19:27 (EST)
Poster: Steve A
Email: steve.allison@lion-nathan.com.au
To: Joy
Subject: Re: publish (and be damned)
Message:
Dear Joy Were you involved in Divine Light Magazine ?. There was some beautiful artwork in that magazine, despite on reflection the poor subject matter. For what it's worth I just wanted to say your good work was noticed and appreciated.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Mar 6, 1998 at 02:31:39 (EST)
Poster: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net
To: Joy
Subject: Re: publish (and be damned)
Message:
Sounds like a good idea, Nigel! I could help with the typesetting/graphics end of it, as an atonement for all the years I put in producing AIID, Divine Times and Divine Light magazine. Let's publish!!! "Who Is Guru Maharaj-Ji, Part II - The Search for Spock." We'll be rich!!!... Wait a minute, how many people bought "Who Is Guru Maharaj-Ji" besides me, Johnny Cavad, and Jim? We may only be able to sell three copies. Okay, maybe we should call it "Ex-Lovers of the Perfect Master of the Kali Yuga." That way we can pick-up the New Age market and those who are looking for a one-hand book! Yours in Publishing, Michael
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Mar 6, 1998 at 15:29:51 (EST)
Poster: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Katie
Subject: Re: publish (and be damned)
Message:
Nigel, aren't you writing a book right now? What about you? I would collaborate with you - I am a part-time freelance technical writer (which has ruined my style but not my clarity)- and possibly others would as well. Thanks Katie I could certainly get into a project like that - especially a collaborative one, but I was really hoping somebody else might want to have a go. For one thing, I can't really think about it for at least six months, maybe a year, since I already have too much else on. Also, I feel there are probably others who were better placed within the DLM organisation, and already have a far greater knowledge of how things were - and are - run. I was never more than an average community premie who used to make he Arti candles. Also I get the impression that you stateside ex's have much more in the way of a network of useful old friends and other contacts, even within the present day set-up (ok, I realise this wouldn't be such a great problem if we were collaborating, Katie, and maybe I am just looking for excuses), but seriously, I am busy right now. I think your technical authoring skills might be exactly what is required to provide a `neutral' sort of voice that holds all the other stuff together - presenting factual information dispassionately, and letting people tell their own stories. So, as far as I am concerned, maybe later, if nobody else has done anything, and you are still interested...
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Mar 5, 1998 at 15:20:25 (EST)
Poster: nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Everyone
Subject: holy blow job
Message:
I don’t know whether this subject has been discussed before, but I would be very interested in hear other people’s thoughts about, or experiences of, ‘holy breath’ - especially from anyone who has done darshan line duty. Although I must have seen Maharaj Ji some six or seven times at festivals and programmes, I only received darshan twice. I think M enjoyed the ‘will he / won’t he give darshan?’ tease, and the fact it wasn’t guaranteed added to the sense of darshan being something very special. Anyway, I had darshan twice only. The second time I experienced absolutely nothing, and that is probably where some of my earliest doubts set in, but my first darshan was quite mind-blowing at the time (or should that be ‘ear-blowing’?). I had been told that as this was my first darshan, I should approach M with a hand cupped behind my right ear in order to receive ‘holy breath’. Nobody explained what holy breath was supposed to mean or symbolise, and I never heard M talk about it. But it was the done thing, so as my turn came, I approached M with my right hand behind behind my ear, not sure whether to look at M or at his feet. Just before I bent down to do the unspeakable, there was this sudden short, sharp ‘whoosh’ in my ear which I could both hear and feel. Simultaneously I felt this involuntary lurch down around my solar plexus, like my diaphragm had been jerked by a fishing line - a bit like when you 'catch your breath'. The combined effect was like a paranormal experience. I pictured it as being M’s breath (or prana?) connecting with my own (stop sniggering at the back, please!), and that in this way M was revealing himself to me. This memory, more than anything else, kept me convinced for a few years that Maharaj Ji was the real thing. ‘Amazing’, ‘incredible’,’unbelievable’, I told everybody` - but, strangely, no other premie seemed to have really experienced holy breath in the way I decribed it. I don’t now believe there was anything extraordinary in what happened. Firstly, the setting was important. The festival was at Malaga, Spain 1979, and I had been queuing outside the bullring in 90 degree sunshine for most of an hour, so was already quite light-headed by the time I reached the darshan tunnel. Suddenly, instead of crawling along at a virtual standstill as we had up to that point, we were being rushed through by small army of attendants who lined the walls of the blue canvas tunnel that led through to the darshan room. I was also in a slightly disturbed emotional state, part fear and part excitement that increased in intensity as I approached M’s seat. The whole episode - the ‘whoosh’, bend, kiss, rise, depart - can not have lasted more than one second, before I was heading for the exit tunnel, where someone gave me a toffee as I staggered, dazed, back out into the sunshine - so the moment was fleeting, making it hard to be sure exactly what had happened. At the time it had somehow seemed as if M had been perched right ‘up there’ and me way down below, and his breath must have been truly magical for me to hear and feel it as I had. But this, I have realised, was an illusion. M is only 5’ 3", so I’ve heard, and when sitting in an armchair on a low dais with feet resting on a cushion (at just below waist height for premies passing) it would not be difficult for him to direct a stream of air at somebody’s ear so they could both hear and feel it, especially if their hand is placed just so, to amplify any sound. The lurch in my diaphragm was , I suspect, no more than a reflex. I would be grateful to hear anybody else’s memories and interpretations of ‘holy breath’, if they have them.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Mar 5, 1998 at 19:05:21 (EST)
Poster: blown away
Email: sucked dry
To: nigel
Subject: Re: holy blow job
Message:
You're so right, nigel, I'm fed up reading all this anti Maharaji stuff. You and I know the truth. Just one blow job from Maharaji and all my doubts disappeared. There's really no other experience compares with it. When Maharaji sucks on the old cosmic pecker, you really know you've been suckered.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Mar 5, 1998 at 21:38:23 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: blown away
Subject: Re: holy blow job
Message:
You're so right, nigel, I'm fed up reading all this anti Maharaji stuff. You and I know the truth. Just one blow job from Maharaji and all my doubts disappeared. There's really no other experience compares with it. When Maharaji sucks on the old cosmic pecker, you really know you've been suckered. I just have to say that this post was rude, crude and in very bad taste. And I personally feel very guilty for falling on the floor laughing for at least 15 minutes after I read it!
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Mar 6, 1998 at 13:37:57 (EST)
Poster: And On Anand Ji
Email: aoa
To: nigel
Subject: Re: holy blow job
Message:
I don’t know whether this subject has been discussed before, but I would be very interested in hear other people’s thoughts about, or experiences of, ‘holy breath’ - especially from anyone who has done darshan line duty. Although I must have seen Maharaj Ji some six or seven times at festivals and programmes, I only received darshan twice. I think M enjoyed the ‘will he / won’t he give darshan?’ tease, and the fact it wasn’t guaranteed added to the sense of darshan being something very special. Anyway, I had darshan twice only. The second time I experienced absolutely nothing, and that is probably where some of my earliest doubts set in, but my first darshan was quite mind-blowing at the time (or should that be ‘ear-blowing’?). I had been told that as this was my first darshan, I should approach M with a hand cupped behind my right ear in order to receive ‘holy breath’. Nobody explained what holy breath was supposed to mean or symbolise, and I never heard M talk about it. But it was the done thing, so as my turn came, I approached M with my right hand behind behind my ear, not sure whether to look at M or at his feet. Just before I bent down to do the unspeakable, there was this sudden short, sharp ‘whoosh’ in my ear which I could both hear and feel. Simultaneously I felt this involuntary lurch down around my solar plexus, like my diaphragm had been jerked by a fishing line - a bit like when you 'catch your breath'. The combined effect was like a paranormal experience. I pictured it as being M’s breath (or prana?) connecting with my own (stop sniggering at the back, please!), and that in this way M was revealing himself to me. This memory, more than anything else, kept me convinced for a few years that Maharaj Ji was the real thing. ‘Amazing’, ‘incredible’,’unbelievable’, I told everybody` - but, strangely, no other premie seemed to have really experienced holy breath in the way I decribed it. I don’t now believe there was anything extraordinary in what happened. Firstly, the setting was important. The festival was at Malaga, Spain 1979, and I had been queuing outside the bullring in 90 degree sunshine for most of an hour, so was already quite light-headed by the time I reached the darshan tunnel. Suddenly, instead of crawling along at a virtual standstill as we had up to that point, we were being rushed through by small army of attendants who lined the walls of the blue canvas tunnel that led through to the darshan room. I was also in a slightly disturbed emotional state, part fear and part excitement that increased in intensity as I approached M’s seat. The whole episode - the ‘whoosh’, bend, kiss, rise, depart - can not have lasted more than one second, before I was heading for the exit tunnel, where someone gave me a toffee as I staggered, dazed, back out into the sunshine - so the moment was fleeting, making it hard to be sure exactly what had happened. At the time it had somehow seemed as if M had been perched right ‘up there’ and me way down below, and his breath must have been truly magical for me to hear and feel it as I had. But this, I have realised, was an illusion. M is only 5’ 3', so I’ve heard, and when sitting in an armchair on a low dais with feet resting on a cushion (at just below waist height for premies passing) it would not be difficult for him to direct a stream of air at somebody’s ear so they could both hear and feel it, especially if their hand is placed just so, to amplify any sound. The lurch in my diaphragm was , I suspect, no more than a reflex. I would be grateful to hear anybody else’s memories and interpretations of ‘holy breath’, if they have them. By what mechanism was your kick in the stomach delivered? Your central nervous system has several inbuilt features; it's reasonable to suppose there are a few of those features, needed in the days of Neanderthal, that you have yet to experience in this lifetime, but shall, one day. As children, we pee and poop pretty much without restraint. Potty training happens, and we learn (for whatever reason) to suppress the urge to just do it. We wait, and do it when it is convenient to do it -- or when it is no longer to be postponed. As a child, pretty much anything might set me off, and I was good for 15 minutes of the most elaborate performance of crying and wailing, often ending by laying on the kitchen floor in a puddle of my own tears. At some point, the ritual became less than useful, and it stopped. Today, I have to concentrate and focus in, if I am to allow feelings that lead to tears and crying and have them last all of 5 minutes, all but incapacitated in this necessary purging of emotion from time to time. With practice, it is attainable, but by no means can I do it on cue. It is triggered by thoughts and by external events. The complex involuntary sexual release and pleasures certainly are keyed into the presence (real or only imagined and thought-about) of another person, and perhaps personal articles such as the clothing one wears. It is reasonable also to suppose that the Rhada swami tradition also teaches the con artist how to trick the shills into thinking they've had an experience. Maybe it's as simple as Maharaji gets bored, and decides to "really give it to" the next one in line who seems especially susceptible -- which was you, in this instance. And then he does whatever trick they taught him in con artist school -- who knows, maybe he had one of those air syringes and actually goosed you with it, while your eyes were averted. They say that one should never attribute to malice what can be more easily explained by incompetence and neglect and failure to act. You knew something was supposed to happen, when you cupped your hand to your ear. You did get a more or less plausible stimulus -- an imagined puff in the ear. I can tell you that very often I experience flea bites -- very sharp bites -- and I was convinced for two years I had fleas in the apartment, even though I'd repeatedly sprayed for fleas. But something odd happened -- I'd shower, put on freshly-laundered clothes -- and leave. And I'd feel the flea bites in other people's homes! When I finally took a lover recently, she stayed overnight here many times. I asked her repeatedly about the fleas -- and she's very sensitive to her environment, hates the smells of smoke, etc. -- and she said no way were there fleas here. That was the only way I could know, apparently. I was also plagued (in recent years, ending only months ago) with this smell of like kerosene or diesel fuel - I could smell it on my clothes when I put them on! It seemed impossible to get rid of; I tried washing them and other things. Finally I threw out a pair of expensive athletic shoes which seemed to carry the strongest smell to them, of kerosene or diesel. A week after I threw them out, it finally dawned on me I was smelling a random waft from the boiler room of the building -- I was smelling fuel oil! I was convinced the smells were coming from specific articles of clothing -- my best guess was that they'd somehow picked up the smell in the laundry. It was wierd; a perception jag. Having been brainwashed (or otherwise strongly influenced) by the likes of Maharaji creates a victim role -- and there are serious consequences to it. I believe until a person sorts it out, they carry that baggage with them; what appears on the telling of it bizarre to others -- the fleas, the diesel smell -- seems normal, commonplace. To interpret the senses more or less to fit a story one has decided on, arbitrarily, as being the truth of a matter. I decided I had fleas; I decided I had oil on my clothes. For all practical purposes, those events transpired, for me. But there was never any objective evidence to support them; I never overcame the fleas thing until I got an objective observer to compare for me what I was incapable of distinguishing for myself.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Mar 6, 1998 at 13:44:02 (EST)
Poster: And On Anand Ji
Email: aoa
To: -----
Subject: Re: holy blow job
Message:
blah, blah, blah . . . . . . I never overcame the fleas thing until I got an objective observer to compare for me what I was incapable of distinguishing for myself.Re: holy blow job also titled as: Reality Bites. :)
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Mar 5, 1998 at 12:58:16 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: Everyone
Subject: There is no Katie!
Message:
After I sent one of Bill's latest messages to the lab I started thinking. Why is it Katie and Mili never post at the exact same moment? I scrambled through the archives. Sure enough, each one of 'their' posts are at least half a minute apart! It hit me like a fever -- all the 'I'm not so sure if I like Mili, he's so rude', then the 'Mili's not so bad once you get to know him'..... where had I been? This was so obvious, the fake identity as a 'mid-west lab tech'. The supposed husband who, I remind you, WE NEVER HEAR FROM! Yeah, right. Brothers and sisters, we've been duped again. Really, now that you look at it, isn't it a little TOO obvious -- Mili claims to work as a TRANSLATOR and 'Katie' also pretends to have a JOB! Get it? 'TRANSLATOR'? 'JOB'? Give me a break! Okay Mili, give it up, will ya'? If you want to keep up this 'Katie' thing I say that just stands as one more example of Maharaji's 'world vision' gone nuts. That's all.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Mar 5, 1998 at 13:10:21 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Jim
Subject: Re: There is no Katie!
Message:
After I sent one of Bill's latest messages to the lab I started thinking. Why is it Katie and Mili never post at the exact same moment? I scrambled through the archives. Sure enough, each one of 'their' posts are at least half a minute apart! It hit me like a fever -- all the 'I'm not so sure if I like Mili, he's so rude', then the 'Mili's not so bad once you get to know him'..... where had I been? This was so obvious, the fake identity as a 'mid-west lab tech'. The supposed husband who, I remind you, WE NEVER HEAR FROM! Yeah, right. Brothers and sisters, we've been duped again. Really, now that you look at it, isn't it a little TOO obvious -- Mili claims to work as a TRANSLATOR and 'Katie' also pretends to have a JOB! Get it? 'TRANSLATOR'? 'JOB'? Give me a break! Okay Mili, give it up, will ya'? If you want to keep up this 'Katie' thing I say that just stands as one more example of Maharaji's 'world vision' gone nuts. That's all. Jim, You're completely nuts, man. You're a classic paranoia nutcase, along with all the like-minded souls that you attract to this site. That's what I was saying all along. What kind of mushrooms were were those you were doing while in the ashram?
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Mar 5, 1998 at 13:31:23 (EST)
Poster: John K.
Email:
To: Mili
Subject: Re: There is no Katie!
Message:
Jim: This latest post from Mili just proves your case: Katie did not post at the exact same moment anywhere else on the forum. You are one awesomely brilliant dude, dude. Except I think it's really Katie that's posing as Mili and not Mili that's posting as Katie. There's really no other 'rational' explanation for Mili's excellent english.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Mar 5, 1998 at 13:42:58 (EST)
Poster: David
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: Mili
Subject: Re: There is no Katie!
Message:
It's just a wind-up Mili. Jim's trying to wind you up. By the way, I'm an independent poster here. I'm not a follower of Jim any more than I am a follower of Maharaji.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Mar 5, 1998 at 14:10:17 (EST)
Poster: anybrain
Email: ab@ba.net
To: Jim
Subject: Re: There is no Katie!
Message:
do u know this is a sect web site?
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Mar 5, 1998 at 14:12:40 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: David
Subject: Re: There is no Katie!
Message:
It's just a wind-up Mili. Jim's trying to wind you up. By the way, I'm an independent poster here. I'm not a follower of Jim any more than I am a follower of Maharaji. In my book, you are just another victim of the anti-cult hysteria, man.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Mar 5, 1998 at 14:15:36 (EST)
Poster: autonomy
Email: autonomyagainstsects@as.org
To: all
Subject: care this sect (Re: There is no Katie!)
Message:
this is a violent sect this is a violent sect this is a violent sect this is a violent sect this is a violent sect this is a violent sect this is a violent sect this is a violent sect this is a violent sect this is a violent sect
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Mar 5, 1998 at 14:29:41 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: anybrain
Subject: Re: There is no Katie!
Message:
do u know this is a sect web site? This is an 'Ex-premie' website. In my opinion,it is maintained by a bunch of people mutually reinforcing their paranoid group fantasy.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Mar 5, 1998 at 15:21:09 (EST)
Poster: Student
Email:
To: Mili
Subject: Re: There is no Katie!
Message:
do u know this is a sect web site? This is an 'Ex-premie' website. In my opinion,it is maintained by a bunch of people mutually reinforcing their paranoid group fantasy. I don't need a fantasy to mystify me I wanna see my real destiny Last one out, turn out the light.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Mar 5, 1998 at 15:43:21 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Mili
Subject: Re: There is no Katie!
Message:
do u know this is a sect web site? This is an 'Ex-premie' website. In my opinion,it is maintained by a bunch of people mutually reinforcing their paranoid group fantasy. Dear Mili - I wish that you would not generalize about the ex-premies and the ex-premie site. Actually, the site is maintained by Brian, and to a very small extent, me. I don't feel like either of us has a "paranoid fantasy", let alone a group fantasy. We had certain experiences with Maharaji and knowledge which proved to us that following Maharaji wasn't right for us, and we've tried to present them as honestly as possible on the web site to help others who may be going through the same experience. I know that Brian has tried really hard not to make the web site "anti-premie", especially since almost all of us were premies at one point. Regards from Katie
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Mar 5, 1998 at 16:06:55 (EST)
Poster: John K.
Email:
To: Katie
Subject: Re: There is no Katie!
Message:
Katie: Aha! There you go again, trying to take part in a reasonable and 'logical' discussion with a follower of the movement which defies logic, reason, common sense, and analysis. Could any good ever come of this!? Or are you simply having a conversation with your alter ego? hmmmm katie/mili (or is it mili/katie)??
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Mar 5, 1998 at 16:08:34 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: Katie
Subject: Re: There is no Katie!
Message:
do u know this is a sect web site? This is an 'Ex-premie' website. In my opinion,it is maintained by a bunch of people mutually reinforcing their paranoid group fantasy. Dear Mili - I wish that you would not generalize about the ex-premies and the ex-premie site. Actually, the site is maintained by Brian, and to a very small extent, me. I don't feel like either of us has a 'paranoid fantasy', let alone a group fantasy. We had certain experiences with Maharaji and knowledge which proved to us that following Maharaji wasn't right for us, and we've tried to present them as honestly as possible on the web site to help others who may be going through the same experience. I know that Brian has tried really hard not to make the web site 'anti-premie', especially since almost all of us were premies at one point. Regards from Katie See? What'd I tell you? First he posts, then 'she' posts. Come on, guys, it's not like we were born yesterday.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Mar 5, 1998 at 16:08:48 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: Katie
Subject: Re: There is no Katie!
Message:
do u know this is a sect web site? This is an 'Ex-premie' website. In my opinion,it is maintained by a bunch of people mutually reinforcing their paranoid group fantasy. Dear Mili - I wish that you would not generalize about the ex-premies and the ex-premie site. Actually, the site is maintained by Brian, and to a very small extent, me. I don't feel like either of us has a 'paranoid fantasy', let alone a group fantasy. We had certain experiences with Maharaji and knowledge which proved to us that following Maharaji wasn't right for us, and we've tried to present them as honestly as possible on the web site to help others who may be going through the same experience. I know that Brian has tried really hard not to make the web site 'anti-premie', especially since almost all of us were premies at one point. Regards from Katie See? What'd I tell you? First he posts, then 'she' posts. Come on, 'guys', it's not like we were born yesterday.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Mar 5, 1998 at 16:11:06 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Katie
Subject: Re: There is no Katie!
Message:
do u know this is a sect web site? This is an 'Ex-premie' website. In my opinion,it is maintained by a bunch of people mutually reinforcing their paranoid group fantasy. Dear Mili - I wish that you would not generalize about the ex-premies and the ex-premie site. Actually, the site is maintained by Brian, and to a very small extent, me. I don't feel like either of us has a 'paranoid fantasy', let alone a group fantasy. We had certain experiences with Maharaji and knowledge which proved to us that following Maharaji wasn't right for us, and we've tried to present them as honestly as possible on the web site to help others who may be going through the same experience. I know that Brian has tried really hard not to make the web site 'anti-premie', especially since almost all of us were premies at one point. Regards from Katie Katie, It's your website, you are paying for it, and obviously you can publish anything you want on it. (Freedom of speech?) It is undisputably an anti-Maharaji website. I think it's really naive of you to think that anyone who respects and values Maharaji would not be offended by the outrageous obnoxious slander that is being fostered and published here.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Mar 5, 1998 at 16:19:52 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Jim
Subject: Re: There is no Katie!
Message:
Jim, You are really sick, and this whole 'Ex-premie' trip that you initiated andthat you so diligently sustain, is sick.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Mar 5, 1998 at 16:23:37 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Mili
Subject: Re: There is no Katie!
Message:
do u know this is a sect web site? This is an 'Ex-premie' website. In my opinion,it is maintained by a bunch of people mutually reinforcing their paranoid group fantasy. Dear Mili - I wish that you would not generalize about the ex-premies and the ex-premie site. Actually, the site is maintained by Brian, and to a very small extent, me. I don't feel like either of us has a 'paranoid fantasy', let alone a group fantasy. We had certain experiences with Maharaji and knowledge which proved to us that following Maharaji wasn't right for us, and we've tried to present them as honestly as possible on the web site to help others who may be going through the same experience. I know that Brian has tried really hard not to make the web site 'anti-premie', especially since almost all of us were premies at one point. Regards from Katie Katie, It's your website, you are paying for it, and obviously you can publish anything you want on it. (Freedom of speech?) It is undisputably an anti-Maharaji website. I think it's really naive of you to think that anyone who respects and values Maharaji would not be offended by the outrageous obnoxious slander that is being fostered and published here. Dear Mili - of course it's an anti-Maharaji web site! I don't like Maharaji very much and neither does Brian. Brian, however, has tried really hard NOT to put anything on the web site that's not either someone's personal experience or has been documented as being correct. I think you should at least give him credit for that. I also think that the premies should be able to have a web site where they can say whatever THEY want to say about Maharaji. As far as the forum, people can say anything they want about anyone because it's unmoderated. For example, Jim can say that you and I are the same person....and neither of us (or Brian) can stop him. Regards from Katie
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Mar 5, 1998 at 16:28:20 (EST)
Poster: John K.
Email:
To: Mili
Subject: Re: There is no Katie!
Message:
Dear Mili: I know what you, your spiritual master, and all the rest of the premies wish, is that we would just keep quiet. Just pretend what happened never really happened or that it didn't mean anything. Don't hold anyone accountable for anything that happened and keep quite about it, right? How healthy is it to suppress information about the past? It strikes me as pretty sick to go blindly forward following someone who has gone absolutely nowhere for 25 years. Kind regards to you and yours!
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Mar 5, 1998 at 16:32:19 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: Katie
Subject: Re: There is no Katie!
Message:
>Jim can say that you and I are the same person....and neither of us (or Brian) can stop him. Nice try whatever-your-name-is! (smiley face emoticom)
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Mar 5, 1998 at 17:00:05 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: John K.
Subject: Re: There is no Katie!
Message:
Dear Mili: I know what you, your spiritual master, and all the rest of the premies wish, is that we would just keep quiet. Just pretend what happened never really happened or that it didn't mean anything. Don't hold anyone accountable for anything that happened and keep quite about it, right? How healthy is it to suppress information about the past? It strikes me as pretty sick to go blindly forward following someone who has gone absolutely nowhere for 25 years. Kind regards to you and yours! I am sorry that a lot of you people feel that a significant part of your past was so worthless. To me it was the best part of my life. I regret that you do not see me simply as another person, but insist on pejoratively segregating me in some imaginary group. If you think that the Bob Mishler 'interview' is information, then you don't know hate propaganda when you see it.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Mar 5, 1998 at 17:39:08 (EST)
Poster: Fishlips
Email: .
To: Jim
Subject: What the fuck (Re: There is no Katie!)
Message:
After I sent one of Bill's latest messages to the lab I started thinking. Why is it Katie and Mili never post at the exact same moment? I scrambled through the archives. Sure enough, each one of 'their' posts are at least half a minute apart! It hit me like a fever -- all the 'I'm not so sure if I like Mili, he's so rude', then the 'Mili's not so bad once you get to know him'..... where had I been? This was so obvious, the fake identity as a 'mid-west lab tech'. The supposed husband who, I remind you, WE NEVER HEAR FROM! Yeah, right. Brothers and sisters, we've been duped again. Really, now that you look at it, isn't it a little TOO obvious -- Mili claims to work as a TRANSLATOR and 'Katie' also pretends to have a JOB! Get it? 'TRANSLATOR'? 'JOB'? Give me a break! Okay Mili, give it up, will ya'? If you want to keep up this 'Katie' thing I say that just stands as one more example of Maharaji's 'world vision' gone nuts. That's all. She has to bleedin exist cos I hate the fat bitch, and if she dont exist then neither do I, or Milli. Jesus are you katie Milli? I think there are only two people on this friggin forum. Me and Katie...eeeeaaaaaak
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Mar 5, 1998 at 18:19:36 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email:
To: Jim
Subject: Re: There is no Katie!
Message:
Dear Jim - Alas, I must confess that Mili and I are separate persons although we might have been sharing the same computer if fate had been kinder and put less obstacles in our path. First, Mili lives in Croatia and I live in Missouri. Not an unsurmountable obstacle except for the fact that I am happily married to someone else and Mili is one of the hottest cyber-hunks on the web and is being pursued by women everywhere. (I wouldn't have had a chance even if I'd been single.) Finally (and this is what makes it a real Romeo and Juliet story), there's our spiritual differences: Mili is a premie and I am an ex-premie. Not to mention the fact that I am a blonde goyische shiksa who Mili's mom probably wouldn't approve of. So have some sympathy, Jim. And take a vacation. You need one. Regards from Katie
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Mar 5, 1998 at 18:32:38 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: Katie
Subject: Re: There is no Katie!
Message:
Too funny. Okay, you've persuaded me. How? I don't know. Just a feeling, I guess. But that is pretty funny.... many seconds later and I'm still laughing.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Mar 5, 1998 at 19:55:23 (EST)
Poster: David
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: Jim & Katie & Mili
Subject: Re: There is no Katie!
Message:
OK guys, I've finally sussed it. No need to pretend any more because I now realise that Jim, Katie and Mili are all the same person! It's obvious isn't it. See how they never post at the same time and are always disagreeing with each other. They're all one person's alter egos, and that person is .......
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Mar 5, 1998 at 20:00:47 (EST)
Poster: David
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: Jim
Subject: Re: There is no Katie!
Message:
See what I mean - Jim, Katie & Mili - they're all ONE. Ha ha ha ha!! And they said I was MAD! Ha ha ha ha!
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Mar 5, 1998 at 22:32:27 (EST)
Poster: Scott T.
Email:
To: Mili
Subject: There is no Leonard Zelig (Re: There is no Katie!)
Message:
Mili: I'm going to have something to say about this rather peculiar thread in a moment (see below), but first. My interest in this site is that I don't think there is a way out of the trap of rationalization we've set for ourselves except through charisma. I'm sure many would not agree with me about this. However, if I am right then it becomes extremely important to be able to differentiate between good charisma and "bad" (in the sense of evil) charisma. We may not be able to do this very easily, but we must have some standards. I came to the conclusion some time ago that GMJ doesn't meet any set of standards I can summon. I am not overjoyed at this. It means, quite simply, that I was wrong (not a pleasant discovery). Skepticism as a philosophical discipline always finds a dead end, but it does contribute something. Basically, what it contributes is that even if we can't generate an "understanding" of truth through rationality we can determine whether or not something is true if it has any reasonable degree of transparency. The justifications that premies seem to give for MJs legitimacy strike me as completely opaque. Skepticism can't render a definitive comment on them, but that is not a strength. Absence of transparency is not a contribution, it's a game... a game that has no chance of yielding any fruit (sorry to mix metaphors). Now, to comment on this peculiar thread. A fellow at a company I once worked for happened to see the Woody Allen movie "Zelig." He came to work the next day and announced with great excitement that he had seen a legitimate documentary about a guy who could take on the physical and mental attributes of anyone he happened to be around. I was completely baffled. I thought everyone knew what Woody Allen looked like, and could distinguish a comedy from a documentary. Apparently I was completely mistaken on both counts. My only explanation was that some people just have to believe. -Scott
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Mar 6, 1998 at 02:04:34 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Scott T.
Subject: Re: There is no Leonard Zelig (Re: There is no Katie!)
Message:
Mili: I'm going to have something to say about this rather peculiar thread in a moment (see below), but first. My interest in this site is that I don't think there is a way out of the trap of rationalization we've set for ourselves except through charisma. I'm sure many would not agree with me about this. However, if I am right then it becomes extremely important to be able to differentiate between good charisma and 'bad' (in the sense of evil) charisma. We may not be able to do this very easily, but we must have some standards. I came to the conclusion some time ago that GMJ doesn't meet any set of standards I can summon. I am not overjoyed at this. It means, quite simply, that I was wrong (not a pleasant discovery). Skepticism as a philosophical discipline always finds a dead end, but it does contribute something. Basically, what it contributes is that even if we can't generate an 'understanding' of truth through rationality we can determine whether or not something is true if it has any reasonable degree of transparency. The justifications that premies seem to give for MJs legitimacy strike me as completely opaque. Skepticism can't render a definitive comment on them, but that is not a strength. Absence of transparency is not a contribution, it's a game... a game that has no chance of yielding any fruit (sorry to mix metaphors). Now, to comment on this peculiar thread. A fellow at a company I once worked for happened to see the Woody Allen movie 'Zelig.' He came to work the next day and announced with great excitement that he had seen a legitimate documentary about a guy who could take on the physical and mental attributes of anyone he happened to be around. I was completely baffled. I thought everyone knew what Woody Allen looked like, and could distinguish a comedy from a documentary. Apparently I was completely mistaken on both counts. My only explanation was that some people just have to believe. -Scott Scott, believe what you have seen with your own two eyes, heard with your own ears, felt in your own heart. And not believe ugly rumours and fabrications being spread by modern crusaders and witch-hunters. What is your comment about this:
========================
THE SYDNEY MORNING HERALD
“Millennium Encyclical
Friday, February 27, 1998
Pope set to take a hammer to New Age beliefs
By JOHN HOOPER in Rome and MADELEINE BUNTING in London

The Pope is preparing an onslaught on New Age beliefs in time for the millennium. He is expected to set out his thinking in an encyclical - a letter sent to all Roman Catholic bishops, the most authoritative way in which he can make known his ideas. A systematic critique is to be made ready for publication later this year, reports in Rome say. Experts have produced working papers on individual topics, the conclusions of which will be considered for inclusion in the Pope's work. His attack on the values of the Age of Aquarius is expected to be set in the context of an offensive against modern philosophical trends. His main objection is understood to be the concept of "systematic doubt", on the grounds that it precludes a belief in God rooted in certainty. The Pope sees systematic doubt as the key to a system of beliefs which puts man, not God, at the centre of the universe. He is thought to regard the New Age movement, with its emphasis on self-realisation, as a product of such thinking. Father David Evans, secretary to the Catholic Bishops' Conference on Faith and Culture in England, said: "The Pope would oppose anything which suggests that salvation can come from our own works rather than through Jesus Christ." If, as reports in Rome suggest, a rare encyclical is issued, it will be a measure of the alarm New Age thinking provokes at the highest levels. Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger [principal instigator in the excommunication of Matthew Fox -- DG], the most influential theologian in the Vatican, has dismissed Buddhism, a major influence on the New Age movement, as "spiritual auto-eroticism". Buddhism, rather than Marxism, now poses the true challenge to the Church, he says. But Father Evans argues that the Church cannot afford only to condemn. "The Church also needs to listen to what the New Age has to say," he said. "Its rich understanding of humanity stresses the importance of the emotional life and desires which young people find helpful." The New Age movement is an amorphous collection of spiritual ideas ranging from modern witchcraft, shamanism and neo-paganism to the human-potential movement and astrology.
===================
So, you thought the inquisition and the Dark Ages were a thing of the past?
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Mar 6, 1998 at 02:24:09 (EST)
Poster: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net
To: Mili
Subject: Re: There is no Katie!
Message:
do u know this is a sect web site? This is an 'Ex-premie' website. In my opinion,it is maintained by a bunch of people mutually reinforcing their paranoid group fantasy. Dear Mili - I wish that you would not generalize about the ex-premies and the ex-premie site. Actually, the site is maintained by Brian, and to a very small extent, me. I don't feel like either of us has a 'paranoid fantasy', let alone a group fantasy. We had certain experiences with Maharaji and knowledge which proved to us that following Maharaji wasn't right for us, and we've tried to present them as honestly as possible on the web site to help others who may be going through the same experience. I know that Brian has tried really hard not to make the web site 'anti-premie', especially since almost all of us were premies at one point. Regards from Katie Katie, It's your website, you are paying for it, and obviously you can publish anything you want on it. (Freedom of speech?) It is undisputably an anti-Maharaji website. I think it's really naive of you to think that anyone who respects and values Maharaji would not be offended by the outrageous obnoxious slander that is being fostered and published here. Geez, Mili, Why would anyone who really respects Maharaji hang around an anti-maharaji site? We are very clear about the fact that we believe the Big M screwed us over, and that once you open your eyes you'll realize that he has been slipping the big one to you, too. We are talking from our experience, a word that was very important back when I was a Premie. This is not the place to come if you want to hear beautiful satsang "this knowledge is so beautiful and by Maharaji's grace I am able to do everything and I am so full of love and peace and I will never eat a hamburger again." It's not going to happen, dude!
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Mar 6, 1998 at 02:48:43 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Mili
Subject: Re: There is no Leonard Zelig (Re: There is no Katie!)
Message:
Dear Mili - I don't know what things are like in Croatia, but the majority of American Catholics only do what the pope says if they feel like it. For example, most Catholics in the US use some form of birth control besides the rhythym method and disregard the pope's extreme disapproval. So I don't believe there's going to be another inquisition, despite the quote that you gave. I think the pope knows it too. I get the feeling that you feel that you have been or will be persecuted for your religious or spiritual beliefs. Since I don't live in Croatia, I don't know if this feeling is correct or not. I'm curious to know who you think will punish you for following Maharaji. I certainly don't want to persecute you or any other premie for believing in Maharaji, and I don't think any of the other ex-premies who post on here do either. Regards from Katie
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Mar 6, 1998 at 03:16:50 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Katie
Subject: Re: There is no Leonard Zelig (Re: There is no Katie!)
Message:
Dear Mili - I don't know what things are like in Croatia, but the majority of American Catholics only do what the pope says if they feel like it. For example, most Catholics in the US use some form of birth control besides the rhythym method and disregard the pope's extreme disapproval. So I don't believe there's going to be another inquisition, despite the quote that you gave. I think the pope knows it too. I get the feeling that you feel that you have been or will be persecuted for your religious or spiritual beliefs. Since I don't live in Croatia, I don't know if this feeling is correct or not. I'm curious to know who you think will punish you for following Maharaji. I certainly don't want to persecute you or any other premie for believing in Maharaji, and I don't think any of the other ex-premies who post on here do either. Regards from Katie Katie, After the recent war here, persecution is mild word. And things are heating up again on Kosovo with the Albanians, which can trigger off Bosnia, again and maybe another war between Serbia and Croatia. Kosovo is predominantly Muslim which makes it a religious war between the Orthodox Christian Serbs and Macedonians and Muslim Albanians. This could set in motion a conflict between Muslim Turkey and Orthodox Greece and Bulgaria. Turkey is bordering with Iraq and Syria. Syria is bordering with Israel Need I say more? Who is Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger (principal investigator in the excommunication of Matthew Fox). What was that all about?
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Mar 6, 1998 at 03:33:22 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Mickey the Pharisee
Subject: Re: There is no Katie!
Message:
do u know this is a sect web site? This is an 'Ex-premie' website. In my opinion,it is maintained by a bunch of people mutually reinforcing their paranoid group fantasy. Dear Mili - I wish that you would not generalize about the ex-premies and the ex-premie site. Actually, the site is maintained by Brian, and to a very small extent, me. I don't feel like either of us has a 'paranoid fantasy', let alone a group fantasy. We had certain experiences with Maharaji and knowledge which proved to us that following Maharaji wasn't right for us, and we've tried to present them as honestly as possible on the web site to help others who may be going through the same experience. I know that Brian has tried really hard not to make the web site 'anti-premie', especially since almost all of us were premies at one point. Regards from Katie Katie, It's your website, you are paying for it, and obviously you can publish anything you want on it. (Freedom of speech?) It is undisputably an anti-Maharaji website. I think it's really naive of you to think that anyone who respects and values Maharaji would not be offended by the outrageous obnoxious slander that is being fostered and published here. Geez, Mili, Why would anyone who really respects Maharaji hang around an anti-maharaji site? We are very clear about the fact that we believe the Big M screwed us over, and that once you open your eyes you'll realize that he has been slipping the big one to you, too. We are talking from our experience, a word that was very important back when I was a Premie. This is not the place to come if you want to hear beautiful satsang 'this knowledge is so beautiful and by Maharaji's grace I am able to do everything and I am so full of love and peace and I will never eat a hamburger again.' It's not going to happen, dude! Mickey, It's a free Internet and I can come and go wherever I please. Why should it bother you? Tell me, what do you think about the Pope perceiving Buddhism as a major threat to the Catholic Church? Do you think Christianity will ever replace Buddhism in places like Japan, China, South-East Asia,Tibet and India? Isn't this exclusive claim to the Truth by the Pope kinda strange? How does the Catholic Church explain witch burnings and Crusades in view of 'Love Thy Neighbor'? Will Richard Dawkins be going to hell to join Charles Darwin and Stephen Hawking there?
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Mar 6, 1998 at 04:18:13 (EST)
Poster: David
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: A brick wall
Subject: Talking to a brick wall (Re: There is no Katie!)
Message:
Mili, you mentioned something about religious freedom again and the Pope slagging off Buddism, or something to that effect. Aren't you slagging off OUR religious beliefs. Some here are confirmed athiests while some believe there is a God. Most people here don't believe in Maharaji's divinity. So why not allow us our beliefs and not judge us? If you do judge us then you are doing the very thing you claim to abhore. Much of what I write on this forum goes unresponded to. That means that many of my views are not agreed with by people here. But most of the people here allow me my views and do not try to convert me to theirs. Could you do the same? My reference to "a brick wall" is not refering to you Mili. Rather it is how this forum can become when views and experiences conflict. I experience very little real communication here on a one to one, responsive basis. I guess that's the nature of this medium. I think voice communication is much better.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Mar 6, 1998 at 06:48:59 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: David
Subject: Re: Talking to a brick wall (Re: There is no Katie!)
Message:
Mili, you mentioned something about religious freedom again and the Pope slagging off Buddism, or something to that effect. Aren't you slagging off OUR religious beliefs. Some here are confirmed athiests while some believe there is a God. Most people here don't believe in Maharaji's divinity. So why not allow us our beliefs and not judge us? If you do judge us then you are doing the very thing you claim to abhore. Much of what I write on this forum goes unresponded to. That means that many of my views are not agreed with by people here. But most of the people here allow me my views and do not try to convert me to theirs. Could you do the same? My reference to 'a brick wall' is not refering to you Mili. Rather it is how this forum can become when views and experiences conflict. I experience very little real communication here on a one to one, responsive basis. I guess that's the nature of this medium. I think voice communication is much better. I'm not trying to convert you, man. Just stating my own views and experiences. I trust that you are and adult person who can think for yourself and take responsibility for your statements, unlike those who post here anonymously.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Mar 6, 1998 at 08:41:20 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: John K.
Subject: Re: There is no Katie!
Message:
Katie: Aha! There you go again, trying to take part in a reasonable and 'logical' discussion with a follower of the movement which defies logic, reason, common sense, and analysis. Could any good ever come of this!? Or are you simply having a conversation with your alter ego? hmmmm katie/mili (or is it mili/katie)?? John, I am sick and tired of you guys calling me illogical. To me, its perfectly logical why I asked for the Knowledge, and why I got involved, and stayed involved as much as that is. I didn't do it as an irrational fluke. As far as logic and rationality goes, tell me one good reason why this universe should exist at all? There is none. But the universe exists and this life goes on with you, or without you, whether you think it is right or wrong, logical or illogical. As far as analysis is concerned, there have been serious books written about this movement, and some serious authors have reached the conclusion that this is not so bad. Try 'Sacred Journeys' by Dr. James Downton, published by Columbia University Press. As far as common sense is concerned, that is a relative thing. I think it is common sense to stick to something that you feel is an asset in your life. You may not think so, but please do not pass any general judgements here. Don't you think that it is commonsense to gather your own, personal experience instead of relying on hearsay and second-hand rumors? Not so long ago, it was commonsense that the Earth was flat and suspended on the backs of turtles and a lot of people still hold it self-evident that the world was created in 5500 B.C.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Mar 6, 1998 at 11:06:56 (EST)
Poster: Scott T.
Email:
To: Mili
Subject: Re: There is no Leonard Zelig (Re: There is no Katie!)
Message:
Mili: Regarding: 'Its rich understanding of humanity stresses the importance of the emotional life and desires which young people find helpful.' The New Age movement is an amorphous collection of spiritual ideas ranging from modern witchcraft, shamanism and neo-paganism to the human-potential movement and astrology. etc. This is very interesting and one should watch how it developes, but it doesn't really surprise me that the Pope is taking an interest in the New Age. That movement has pretty much had it's way, with little or no traditional scrutiny, for a long time. I find many of the New Age concepts rather corrosive. But isn't this ultimately just the pull and push of change? The British were inoculated and made fundamental changes in their governmental and social systems after Cromwell. As such, the British never had to go through the experience engendered by the absolutist monarchies on mainland Europe (specifically France). The traditionalists in Britain would have done anything to avoid another "Oliver Protector." Catholicism is in process of change, but it need not surrender proven traditions without some sort of debate. I know the kind of idiots that populate the New Age movement. At the moment I think it represents a more serious threat than Catholicism, not because it's clever, but because it's so damn goofy. It opens people up to the influence of genuine evil. Prudence suggests that some of that goofiness be brought under the scrutiny of more traditional beliefs. I hardly see it as "persecution." -Scott
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Mar 6, 1998 at 11:57:35 (EST)
Poster: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net
To: Mili
Subject: Re: There is no Katie!
Message:
do u know this is a sect web site? This is an 'Ex-premie' website. In my opinion,it is maintained by a bunch of people mutually reinforcing their paranoid group fantasy. Dear Mili - I wish that you would not generalize about the ex-premies and the ex-premie site. Actually, the site is maintained by Brian, and to a very small extent, me. I don't feel like either of us has a 'paranoid fantasy', let alone a group fantasy. We had certain experiences with Maharaji and knowledge which proved to us that following Maharaji wasn't right for us, and we've tried to present them as honestly as possible on the web site to help others who may be going through the same experience. I know that Brian has tried really hard not to make the web site 'anti-premie', especially since almost all of us were premies at one point. Regards from Katie Katie, It's your website, you are paying for it, and obviously you can publish anything you want on it. (Freedom of speech?) It is undisputably an anti-Maharaji website. I think it's really naive of you to think that anyone who respects and values Maharaji would not be offended by the outrageous obnoxious slander that is being fostered and published here. Geez, Mili, Why would anyone who really respects Maharaji hang around an anti-maharaji site? We are very clear about the fact that we believe the Big M screwed us over, and that once you open your eyes you'll realize that he has been slipping the big one to you, too. We are talking from our experience, a word that was very important back when I was a Premie. This is not the place to come if you want to hear beautiful satsang 'this knowledge is so beautiful and by Maharaji's grace I am able to do everything and I am so full of love and peace and I will never eat a hamburger again.' It's not going to happen, dude! Mickey, It's a free Internet and I can come and go wherever I please. Why should it bother you? Tell me, what do you think about the Pope perceiving Buddhism as a major threat to the Catholic Church? Do you think Christianity will ever replace Buddhism in places like Japan, China, South-East Asia,Tibet and India? Isn't this exclusive claim to the Truth by the Pope kinda strange? How does the Catholic Church explain witch burnings and Crusades in view of 'Love Thy Neighbor'? Will Richard Dawkins be going to hell to join Charles Darwin and Stephen Hawking there? I am not aware of my position of apologist for the Roman Catholic Church since I am an Anglican, and I really feel no obligation to defend the Pope when he says something goofy. The biggest threat to the RC church is itself; since they won't ordain women and continue to demand celibacy from their clergy, there are very few people seeking ordination. For a church which is primarily clergy-centric, this is a major problem. I personally do not perceive Buddhism as a threat to Christianity and I do not think that Christianity will replace Buddhism in Asia. If the Bishop of Rome is going to make exclusive claims on the truth, there is nothing I can do about it. Christians can figure that one out for themselves, and the Pope's authority is only over members of the RC church. As far as the crusades and witch burnings are concerned, I have stated before that these were evil actions and there is no way one can rationalize them or claim that these actions were in line with the teachings of Yeshua. It's not my job to decide who is going to hell and it is not a decision that I have any desire to make. Here Endeth the Response, Thanks be to God.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Mar 6, 1998 at 12:02:08 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Mili
Subject: Ratzinger and Matthew Fox (Re: There is no Katie!)
Message:
Who is Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger (principal investigator in the excommunication of Matthew Fox). What was that all about? Dear Mili - Unfortunately, I don't know the answer to your question about Ratzinger and Matthew Fox (I looked it up on the web, which you probably did too, and wasn't able to find much). I'd be interested to know more about that situation now too. I think that Michael (Mickey) might know more, possibly JW as well. After our conversation last night, I'm wondering if you're concerned that you and other premies will be persecuted for following Maharaji?
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Mar 6, 1998 at 12:03:21 (EST)
Poster: Scott T.
Email:
To: Mili
Subject: Re: There is no Leonard Zelig (Re: There is no Katie!)
Message:
Mili: I should add that I feel much more comfortable with GMJ than with New Ageism in general. My experiences with Knowledge and with the premie communities were mostly good. My experience with New Ageism is much more mixed. I used to belong to a group study of "A Course in Miracles" that I thought very useful. I was not inclined to stay with it, however, once I'd met my commitment of 365 days. Incidentally, there is a very clever spoof of "A Course in Miracles" called "A Course in Marigolds." I understand your concerns about "official" opposition descending into persecution, given the history of Serbo-Croatia. There was an article a number of years ago in Atlantic that drew some parallels between the geology and the history of that region. As I understand the geology it is a place where three tectonic plates meet, so there is an extraordinary degree of upheaval and subduction. Lots of earthquakes, etc. The cultural conflicts mirror the geologic forces. Interesting. -Scott
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Mar 6, 1998 at 13:24:11 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Katie
Subject: Re: Ratzinger and Matthew Fox (Re: There is no Katie!)
Message:
Who is Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger (principal investigator in the excommunication of Matthew Fox). What was that all about? Dear Mili - Unfortunately, I don't know the answer to your question about Ratzinger and Matthew Fox (I looked it up on the web, which you probably did too, and wasn't able to find much). I'd be interested to know more about that situation now too. I think that Michael (Mickey) might know more, possibly JW as well. After our conversation last night, I'm wondering if you're concerned that you and other premies will be persecuted for following Maharaji? Katie, I can't speak for all the premies, but I don't think anyone is going to persecute me here in Croatia. The States, now, that's different. People might be discriminated in view of getting jobs, etc. because someone on the Internet is calling them 'cult members'.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Mar 6, 1998 at 13:29:00 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Mickey the Pharisee
Subject: Re: There is no Katie!
Message:
do u know this is a sect web site? This is an 'Ex-premie' website. In my opinion,it is maintained by a bunch of people mutually reinforcing their paranoid group fantasy. Dear Mili - I wish that you would not generalize about the ex-premies and the ex-premie site. Actually, the site is maintained by Brian, and to a very small extent, me. I don't feel like either of us has a 'paranoid fantasy', let alone a group fantasy. We had certain experiences with Maharaji and knowledge which proved to us that following Maharaji wasn't right for us, and we've tried to present them as honestly as possible on the web site to help others who may be going through the same experience. I know that Brian has tried really hard not to make the web site 'anti-premie', especially since almost all of us were premies at one point. Regards from Katie Katie, It's your website, you are paying for it, and obviously you can publish anything you want on it. (Freedom of speech?) It is undisputably an anti-Maharaji website. I think it's really naive of you to think that anyone who respects and values Maharaji would not be offended by the outrageous obnoxious slander that is being fostered and published here. Geez, Mili, Why would anyone who really respects Maharaji hang around an anti-maharaji site? We are very clear about the fact that we believe the Big M screwed us over, and that once you open your eyes you'll realize that he has been slipping the big one to you, too. We are talking from our experience, a word that was very important back when I was a Premie. This is not the place to come if you want to hear beautiful satsang 'this knowledge is so beautiful and by Maharaji's grace I am able to do everything and I am so full of love and peace and I will never eat a hamburger again.' It's not going to happen, dude! Mickey, It's a free Internet and I can come and go wherever I please. Why should it bother you? Tell me, what do you think about the Pope perceiving Buddhism as a major threat to the Catholic Church? Do you think Christianity will ever replace Buddhism in places like Japan, China, South-East Asia,Tibet and India? Isn't this exclusive claim to the Truth by the Pope kinda strange? How does the Catholic Church explain witch burnings and Crusades in view of 'Love Thy Neighbor'? Will Richard Dawkins be going to hell to join Charles Darwin and Stephen Hawking there? I am not aware of my position of apologist for the Roman Catholic Church since I am an Anglican, and I really feel no obligation to defend the Pope when he says something goofy. The biggest threat to the RC church is itself; since they won't ordain women and continue to demand celibacy from their clergy, there are very few people seeking ordination. For a church which is primarily clergy-centric, this is a major problem. I personally do not perceive Buddhism as a threat to Christianity and I do not think that Christianity will replace Buddhism in Asia. If the Bishop of Rome is going to make exclusive claims on the truth, there is nothing I can do about it. Christians can figure that one out for themselves, and the Pope's authority is only over members of the RC church. As far as the crusades and witch burnings are concerned, I have stated before that these were evil actions and there is no way one can rationalize them or claim that these actions were in line with the teachings of Yeshua. It's not my job to decide who is going to hell and it is not a decision that I have any desire to make. Here Endeth the Response, Thanks be to God. Hey Mickey, I liked that post. It was really cool! I'd like to come to your church sometime if I'm ever in the neigborhood.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Mar 6, 1998 at 13:41:54 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Scott T.
Subject: Re: There is no Leonard Zelig (Re: There is no Katie!)
Message:
Mili: I should add that I feel much more comfortable with GMJ than with New Ageism in general. My experiences with Knowledge and with the premie communities were mostly good. My experience with New Ageism is much more mixed. I used to belong to a group study of 'A Course in Miracles' that I thought very useful. I was not inclined to stay with it, however, once I'd met my commitment of 365 days. Incidentally, there is a very clever spoof of 'A Course in Miracles' called 'A Course in Marigolds.' I understand your concerns about 'official' opposition descending into persecution, given the history of Serbo-Croatia. There was an article a number of years ago in Atlantic that drew some parallels between the geology and the history of that region. As I understand the geology it is a place where three tectonic plates meet, so there is an extraordinary degree of upheaval and subduction. Lots of earthquakes, etc. The cultural conflicts mirror the geologic forces. Interesting. -Scott Scott, The thing that drew me to Maharaji was the traditional Indian background he came from, and the conservative, yet optimistic teaching. It was just the lifesaver that I needed in the hippy dream turned nightmare and moral dissilusionment with communism/capitalism/younameit I was going thru at the time. Maharaji never imposed anything on me, and I am sad to read people's accounts to the contrary. With regard to the plate tectonics theory, it is something that also crossed my mind a few times. Dowsing has been demonstrated as being statistically viable, and underwater streams can alter mood. The Chinese built a whole science of Feng Shui in choosing building locations for habitats in accord with the currents of chi in the landscape. I think it is entirely possible that geology can affect the mentality of the residents in the long run. Mt. St. Helens is mighty close to the place where Jim lives, isn't it?
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Mar 6, 1998 at 14:20:04 (EST)
Poster: And On Anand Ji
Email: aoa
To: Katie
Subject: Re: There is no Katie!
Message:
[-- snip! --] . . . I also think that the premies should be able to have a web site where they can say whatever THEY want to say about Maharaji. If it is slander, let M's attorney make efforts to do something about it. I suspect 2 percent of it is slander, and could be prosecuted as such. The other 98 percent of it will rise again, here or in some other forum -- this idea can't be forgotten, once thought of: for ex-premies to network together, via the Internet, to further their legitimate common interests. Their legitimate, legal, ethical and morally supportable common interests; those that can withstand public scrutiny. Let the offal rest -- it is not needed.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Mar 6, 1998 at 14:24:17 (EST)
Poster: And On Anand Ji
Email: aoa
To: ----
Subject: Re: There is no Katie!
Message:
OK guys, I've finally sussed it. No need to pretend any more because I now realise that Jim, Katie and Mili are all the same person! It's obvious isn't it. See how they never post at the same time and are always disagreeing with each other. They're all one person's alter egos, and that person is ....... David is all those people too (pig pile!) I've never seen mass hysteria where a mob starts going after someone in lynch mode -- not with my eyes, not people standing there in their bodies, maybe holding torches and pitchforks. I'm pretty sure I don't want to.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Mar 6, 1998 at 14:39:17 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Mili
Subject: Re: Ratzinger and Matthew Fox (Re: There is no Katie!)
Message:
Mili -After our conversation last night, I'm wondering if you're concerned that you and other premies will be persecuted for following Maharaji? Dear Mili - that's extremely unlikely, unless the premies act weirdly in some way (which I assume they don't do anymore). I live in a very conservative part of the US and people are much, much, more likely to be discriminated against here if they are black, or gay, or of Middle Eastern origin. Or if they openly preach the theory of evolution (I'm not joking!)
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Mar 6, 1998 at 14:52:20 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: Mili
Subject: Re: Ratzinger and Matthew Fox (Re: There is no Katie!)
Message:
Who is Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger (principal investigator in the excommunication of Matthew Fox). What was that all about? Dear Mili - Unfortunately, I don't know the answer to your question about Ratzinger and Matthew Fox (I looked it up on the web, which you probably did too, and wasn't able to find much). I'd be interested to know more about that situation now too. I think that Michael (Mickey) might know more, possibly JW as well. After our conversation last night, I'm wondering if you're concerned that you and other premies will be persecuted for following Maharaji? Katie, I can't speak for all the premies, but I don't think anyone is going to persecute me here in Croatia. The States, now, that's different. People might be discriminated in view of getting jobs, etc. because someone on the Internet is calling them 'cult members'. Mili, Ratzinger in essentially grand inquisitor of the Vatican, think of him as something like David Smith in DLM/EV. He investigates heresy, etc in the church and attempts to root it out. He has also taken pretty reactionary stands on some professors at catholic universities who are pro-choice, etc., planned parenthood, and homosexuals. He also criticized catholic politicians in the U.S. like Ted Kennedy and Mario Cuomo for being pro-choice on the abortion issue. [Mario Cuomo fought back publicly, and gained a lot of kudos in the process.] I don't think anyone is too surprised to know that the current pope is extremely conservative, much to the chagrin of catholics in most of the Western countries. This pope has always seen new age beliefs, especially if they are incorporated into a Catholic's ideology, as being a threat. And to some degree he is right. The pope is concerned about "cafeteria catholics" who pick and choose parts of the religion and vatican dictates that they want to follow and which they don't. They might also include other "new age" beliefs as well. I think most American Catholics are, essentially, "cafeteria catholics." And Katie is right, most catholics in the U.S. disagree strongly with some church teachings, like birth control, and simply don't follow them. They see the pope as a fairly distant figure. I also know that local priests often give advice to their parishoners on things like birth control, that contradict offical church teachings. Buddhism is a very fast growing religion in the states. It may actually be the fastest growing. To the extent it gets converts from catholocism, the church is worried. I read where Jewish leaders are worried about this too. Ratzinger's description of the Buddhism is typical Ratzinger. And just to let you know, Mili, in the U.S., discrimination is employment, housing, public accommodations, and the like is unconstitutional -- meaning it's against the law. And the major cries of religious discrimination, come from the dominant religion -- christianity. But this comes from the right wing of the christian movement, who really want power, not protection. They want christian prayer in the public schools, government financial support of their schools and other institutions and the establishment of "christian values" (whatever that is) as the basis of the American society. They want to destroy the fundamental principle of the separation of church and state. As it is, they would have to amend the constitution to do this, but a constitutional amendment just passed out of committee in the U.S. House of Representatives to do just that. Most people don't give it much chance of succeeding, but the republicans want to run on that in the upcoming elections to galvanize the votes of the christian religious right.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Mar 6, 1998 at 14:59:29 (EST)
Poster: Scott T.
Email:
To: Mili
Subject: Geography, St. Helens (Re: There is no Katie!)
Message:
Mili: I should add that I feel much more comfortable with GMJ than with New Ageism in general. My experiences with Knowledge and with the premie communities were mostly good. My experience with New Ageism is much more mixed. I used to belong to a group study of 'A Course in Miracles' that I thought very useful. I was not inclined to stay with it, however, once I'd met my commitment of 365 days. Incidentally, there is a very clever spoof of 'A Course in Miracles' called 'A Course in Marigolds.' I understand your concerns about 'official' opposition descending into persecution, given the history of Serbo-Croatia. There was an article a number of years ago in Atlantic that drew some parallels between the geology and the history of that region. As I understand the geology it is a place where three tectonic plates meet, so there is an extraordinary degree of upheaval and subduction. Lots of earthquakes, etc. The cultural conflicts mirror the geologic forces. Interesting. -Scott Scott, The thing that drew me to Maharaji was the traditional Indian background he came from, and the conservative, yet optimistic teaching. It was just the lifesaver that I needed in the hippy dream turned nightmare and moral dissilusionment with communism/capitalism/younameit I was going thru at the time. Maharaji never imposed anything on me, and I am sad to read people's accounts to the contrary. With regard to the plate tectonics theory, it is something that also crossed my mind a few times. Dowsing has been demonstrated as being statistically viable, and underwater streams can alter mood. The Chinese built a whole science of Feng Shui in choosing building locations for habitats in accord with the currents of chi in the landscape. I think it is entirely possible that geology can affect the mentality of the residents in the long run. Mt. St. Helens is mighty close to the place where Jim lives, isn't it? Mili: I was less than 30 miles from St. Helens when in blew. We were having our year-end picnic for the Pacific Northwest College of Art it Portland, OR. Strangely, the mountain blew away from us, and all the explosive force and ash went in the other direction. We didn't even know about the eruption until we got home, where everything was covered in ash. Peculiar. We also had a total solar eclipse around that time in Portland. Now that's a strange experience. -Scott
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Mar 6, 1998 at 16:07:11 (EST)
Poster: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net
To: JW
Subject: Re: Ratzinger and Matthew Fox (Re: There is no Katie!)
Message:
Who is Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger (principal investigator in the excommunication of Matthew Fox). What was that all about? Dear Mili - Unfortunately, I don't know the answer to your question about Ratzinger and Matthew Fox (I looked it up on the web, which you probably did too, and wasn't able to find much). I'd be interested to know more about that situation now too. I think that Michael (Mickey) might know more, possibly JW as well. After our conversation last night, I'm wondering if you're concerned that you and other premies will be persecuted for following Maharaji? Katie, I can't speak for all the premies, but I don't think anyone is going to persecute me here in Croatia. The States, now, that's different. People might be discriminated in view of getting jobs, etc. because someone on the Internet is calling them 'cult members'. Mili, Ratzinger in essentially grand inquisitor of the Vatican, think of him as something like David Smith in DLM/EV. He investigates heresy, etc in the church and attempts to root it out. He has also taken pretty reactionary stands on some professors at catholic universities who are pro-choice, etc., planned parenthood, and homosexuals. He also criticized catholic politicians in the U.S. like Ted Kennedy and Mario Cuomo for being pro-choice on the abortion issue. [Mario Cuomo fought back publicly, and gained a lot of kudos in the process.] I don't think anyone is too surprised to know that the current pope is extremely conservative, much to the chagrin of catholics in most of the Western countries. This pope has always seen new age beliefs, especially if they are incorporated into a Catholic's ideology, as being a threat. And to some degree he is right. The pope is concerned about 'cafeteria catholics' who pick and choose parts of the religion and vatican dictates that they want to follow and which they don't. They might also include other 'new age' beliefs as well. I think most American Catholics are, essentially, 'cafeteria catholics.' And Katie is right, most catholics in the U.S. disagree strongly with some church teachings, like birth control, and simply don't follow them. They see the pope as a fairly distant figure. I also know that local priests often give advice to their parishoners on things like birth control, that contradict offical church teachings. Buddhism is a very fast growing religion in the states. It may actually be the fastest growing. To the extent it gets converts from catholocism, the church is worried. I read where Jewish leaders are worried about this too. Ratzinger's description of the Buddhism is typical Ratzinger. And just to let you know, Mili, in the U.S., discrimination is employment, housing, public accommodations, and the like is unconstitutional -- meaning it's against the law. And the major cries of religious discrimination, come from the dominant religion -- christianity. But this comes from the right wing of the christian movement, who really want power, not protection. They want christian prayer in the public schools, government financial support of their schools and other institutions and the establishment of 'christian values' (whatever that is) as the basis of the American society. They want to destroy the fundamental principle of the separation of church and state. As it is, they would have to amend the constitution to do this, but a constitutional amendment just passed out of committee in the U.S. House of Representatives to do just that. Most people don't give it much chance of succeeding, but the republicans want to run on that in the upcoming elections to galvanize the votes of the christian religious right. As far as I know, Matthew Fox wasn't ex-communicated, but he was silenced. He left the Dominicans and is now an Episcopal priest in the Diocese of California. I live in a neighborhood known as Holy Hill because there are nine seminaries located here. Fox was a Dominican, and his Center for Creation Theology or whatever the hell it's called is over in Oakland. He's been putting on "Techno-masses" over at Jerry Brown's 'We The People' center. Here's the word on Holy Hill regarding Matthew Fox: he was silenced for his controversial Creation Theology, but he left the Dominican order because he had broken his vow of poverty; his writings were garnering a considerable amount of cash and the boy was hanging on to it. I personally don't think that he will be an Episcopal priest for long; the diocese will piss him off somehow and he will probably start his own denomination at some point. Dat's de gossip on Holy Hill!
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Mar 6, 1998 at 16:12:55 (EST)
Poster: Milistew
Email: **
To: Mili
Subject: There is no Katie! (Re: There is no Katie!)
Message:
Do you suppose mili was student? Or probabaly premie.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Mar 6, 1998 at 16:17:13 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: JW
Subject: Re: Ratzinger and Matthew Fox (Re: There is no Katie!)
Message:
Who is Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger (principal investigator in the excommunication of Matthew Fox). What was that all about? Dear Mili - Unfortunately, I don't know the answer to your question about Ratzinger and Matthew Fox (I looked it up on the web, which you probably did too, and wasn't able to find much). I'd be interested to know more about that situation now too. I think that Michael (Mickey) might know more, possibly JW as well. After our conversation last night, I'm wondering if you're concerned that you and other premies will be persecuted for following Maharaji? Katie, I can't speak for all the premies, but I don't think anyone is going to persecute me here in Croatia. The States, now, that's different. People might be discriminated in view of getting jobs, etc. because someone on the Internet is calling them 'cult members'. Mili, Ratzinger in essentially grand inquisitor of the Vatican, think of him as something like David Smith in DLM/EV. He investigates heresy, etc in the church and attempts to root it out. He has also taken pretty reactionary stands on some professors at catholic universities who are pro-choice, etc., planned parenthood, and homosexuals. He also criticized catholic politicians in the U.S. like Ted Kennedy and Mario Cuomo for being pro-choice on the abortion issue. [Mario Cuomo fought back publicly, and gained a lot of kudos in the process.] I don't think anyone is too surprised to know that the current pope is extremely conservative, much to the chagrin of catholics in most of the Western countries. This pope has always seen new age beliefs, especially if they are incorporated into a Catholic's ideology, as being a threat. And to some degree he is right. The pope is concerned about 'cafeteria catholics' who pick and choose parts of the religion and vatican dictates that they want to follow and which they don't. They might also include other 'new age' beliefs as well. I think most American Catholics are, essentially, 'cafeteria catholics.' And Katie is right, most catholics in the U.S. disagree strongly with some church teachings, like birth control, and simply don't follow them. They see the pope as a fairly distant figure. I also know that local priests often give advice to their parishoners on things like birth control, that contradict offical church teachings. Buddhism is a very fast growing religion in the states. It may actually be the fastest growing. To the extent it gets converts from catholocism, the church is worried. I read where Jewish leaders are worried about this too. Ratzinger's description of the Buddhism is typical Ratzinger. And just to let you know, Mili, in the U.S., discrimination is employment, housing, public accommodations, and the like is unconstitutional -- meaning it's against the law. And the major cries of religious discrimination, come from the dominant religion -- christianity. But this comes from the right wing of the christian movement, who really want power, not protection. They want christian prayer in the public schools, government financial support of their schools and other institutions and the establishment of 'christian values' (whatever that is) as the basis of the American society. They want to destroy the fundamental principle of the separation of church and state. As it is, they would have to amend the constitution to do this, but a constitutional amendment just passed out of committee in the U.S. House of Representatives to do just that. Most people don't give it much chance of succeeding, but the republicans want to run on that in the upcoming elections to galvanize the votes of the christian religious right. Thanks for the comprehensive reply, JW. In Europe, many Catholic countries impose a mandatory Church Tax on all citizens. This practice still hasn't occurred in Croatia, but since the present conservative government is eager to imitate 'European' mores, I think it is imminent. I, for one, am going to feel this to be unjust. Actually, I lean towards the Marxist stand that ALL governments are a 'necessary evil' and should eventually be abolished thru education and a high economic standard. Yes, I know it sounds like an utopia. In reality, nationalism is on the rise everywhere and greed rules the world. I don't specifically believe in a doomsday, but after I saw 'The Day After' and 'The Peacemaker' I figure all those nukes out there are statistically bound to be used sooner or later. Anyway, back to Church matters - separation of Church and State, along with the abolition of slavery, is one of the great tenets of the American way of life, I think. It wasn't long ago that it was commonsense in the Western world that just because people were born black they were naturally slaves. I wonder what the position of the Catholic Church was with regard to slavery? I don't want to trash the Church too much - they've been doing a lot of good deeds, and so forth. But, it's equally true that some of the greatest colonial plundering was performed with the blessing of some Pope. I think the Vatican would do well to auction off some of it's enormous wealth to feed, clothe and educate people in the Third World. Things are moving really fast in the world, and its hard to keep up. Usually you learn something new only when it bangs you on the head!
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Mar 6, 1998 at 16:18:25 (EST)
Poster: willbee
Email: **
To: David
Subject: Re: Talking to a brick wall (Re: There is no Katie!)
Message:
We read your posts and find them very interesting. Not always is a response called for but that does not mean we disagree at all.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Mar 6, 1998 at 16:20:23 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: JW
Subject: Re: Ratzinger and Matthew Fox (Re: There is no Katie!)
Message:
Oh yeah, I forgot - Germany is a Protestant country, not Catholic, and it also imposes a Church Tax on its citizens!
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Mar 6, 1998 at 16:26:10 (EST)
Poster: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net
To: Mili
Subject: Re: There is no Katie!
Message:
do u know this is a sect web site? This is an 'Ex-premie' website. In my opinion,it is maintained by a bunch of people mutually reinforcing their paranoid group fantasy. Dear Mili - I wish that you would not generalize about the ex-premies and the ex-premie site. Actually, the site is maintained by Brian, and to a very small extent, me. I don't feel like either of us has a 'paranoid fantasy', let alone a group fantasy. We had certain experiences with Maharaji and knowledge which proved to us that following Maharaji wasn't right for us, and we've tried to present them as honestly as possible on the web site to help others who may be going through the same experience. I know that Brian has tried really hard not to make the web site 'anti-premie', especially since almost all of us were premies at one point. Regards from Katie Katie, It's your website, you are paying for it, and obviously you can publish anything you want on it. (Freedom of speech?) It is undisputably an anti-Maharaji website. I think it's really naive of you to think that anyone who respects and values Maharaji would not be offended by the outrageous obnoxious slander that is being fostered and published here. Geez, Mili, Why would anyone who really respects Maharaji hang around an anti-maharaji site? We are very clear about the fact that we believe the Big M screwed us over, and that once you open your eyes you'll realize that he has been slipping the big one to you, too. We are talking from our experience, a word that was very important back when I was a Premie. This is not the place to come if you want to hear beautiful satsang 'this knowledge is so beautiful and by Maharaji's grace I am able to do everything and I am so full of love and peace and I will never eat a hamburger again.' It's not going to happen, dude! Mickey, It's a free Internet and I can come and go wherever I please. Why should it bother you? Tell me, what do you think about the Pope perceiving Buddhism as a major threat to the Catholic Church? Do you think Christianity will ever replace Buddhism in places like Japan, China, South-East Asia,Tibet and India? Isn't this exclusive claim to the Truth by the Pope kinda strange? How does the Catholic Church explain witch burnings and Crusades in view of 'Love Thy Neighbor'? Will Richard Dawkins be going to hell to join Charles Darwin and Stephen Hawking there? I am not aware of my position of apologist for the Roman Catholic Church since I am an Anglican, and I really feel no obligation to defend the Pope when he says something goofy. The biggest threat to the RC church is itself; since they won't ordain women and continue to demand celibacy from their clergy, there are very few people seeking ordination. For a church which is primarily clergy-centric, this is a major problem. I personally do not perceive Buddhism as a threat to Christianity and I do not think that Christianity will replace Buddhism in Asia. If the Bishop of Rome is going to make exclusive claims on the truth, there is nothing I can do about it. Christians can figure that one out for themselves, and the Pope's authority is only over members of the RC church. As far as the crusades and witch burnings are concerned, I have stated before that these were evil actions and there is no way one can rationalize them or claim that these actions were in line with the teachings of Yeshua. It's not my job to decide who is going to hell and it is not a decision that I have any desire to make. Here Endeth the Response, Thanks be to God. Hey Mickey, I liked that post. It was really cool! I'd like to come to your church sometime if I'm ever in the neigborhood. Oh, by the way, there IS a Katie! I know because I received e-mail from her once, who needs anymore proof than that? :-)
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Mar 6, 1998 at 16:39:47 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: BB
Subject: Re: There is no Katie!
Message:
Do you suppose mili was student? Or probabaly premie. Aw come on, Bill. As far as I can tell, Mili makes a particular point of always posting under his own name and giving his e-mail address (whereas you, on the other hand...). Besides, accusing anyone besides "A Premie" of being "A Premie" is not very nice.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Mar 6, 1998 at 16:45:09 (EST)
Poster: John K.
Email:
To: Mili
Subject: Re: Ratzinger and Matthew Fox (Re: There is no Katie!)
Message:
Wow, that's amazing. What church, or do all registered churches get a piece of the action? Also, what percentage is the tax? Actually, I guess I don't understand. Does that mean a citizen has to pay a tax every time they attend a church? Or do some of their taxes go to specific churches?
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Mar 6, 1998 at 16:48:28 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Milistew
Subject: Re: There is no Katie!
Message:
Do you suppose mili was student? Or probabaly premie. Bill, Which one of the following are you? William Burke 43 Middle Dr, E Hartford,CT 06118-2735 (860)569-9494 William Burke 777 Maple Ave, Hartford,CT 06114-2346 (860)246-6905 William E Burke 120 Kane St, W Hartford,CT 06119-2119 (860)236-6407 William M & Theresa Burke 406 Willard Av, Hartford,CT 06111-2342 (860)667-4074 Ah, the wonders of the Internet!
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Mar 6, 1998 at 17:04:26 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: John K.
Subject: Re: Ratzinger and Matthew Fox (Re: There is no Katie!)
Message:
Wow, that's amazing. What church, or do all registered churches get a piece of the action? Also, what percentage is the tax? Actually, I guess I don't understand. Does that mean a citizen has to pay a tax every time they attend a church? Or do some of their taxes go to specific churches? No, man. There is a percentage on your regular State tax form in Germany (I think it is around 5% but don't press me for that) that you have to deduct from your yearly income, regardless of whether you believe in God, or not. I'm not kidding you.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Mar 6, 1998 at 18:28:23 (EST)
Poster: And On Anand Ji
Email: aoa
To: ----
Subject: Re: There is no Katie!
Message:
And Katie Said: Aw come on, Bill. As far as I can tell, Mili . . . [-- snip! --] . . . Besides, accusing anyone besides 'A Premie' of being 'A Premie' is not very nice. She strokes with the left -- and cuts with the right! Joan of Arc rests peacefully today.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Mar 6, 1998 at 21:04:00 (EST)
Poster: And On Anand Ji
Email: aoa
To: David
Subject: Re: Talking to a brick wall (Re: There is no Katie!)
Message:
I experience very little real communication here on a one to one, responsive basis. I know what you mean. :) I think experiencing the Internet warmly is not a commonplace experience. I know people who've put ten full years into virtual community, and come up short. No, I think if you can't meet face to face occasionallly, your intimacy online is severely restricted to just this space. And in that one sense, I truly wish for all the premies, whether practicing or ex, a good journey. Truly I do. I don't wish anyone ill. I do wish them to go away. Not go away mad -- just go away. To someplace else! I swear -- I won't follow and harass them in their campgrounds! Really. Not interested in that approach. Some would be. Not me. Which leads to an important matter -- you mention voice telephony, David. It's been said -- and I heartily agree -- that the Internet is useful for some forms of social contact, but that voice telephony is far superior in the one area of conflict resolution. These forums are not the place to resolve conflict between ourselves, says that axiom of Internet communication.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Mar 6, 1998 at 21:47:15 (EST)
Poster: David
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: willbee
Subject: Re: Talking to a brick wall (Re: There is no Katie!)
Message:
Read and appreciated with thanks. David.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Mar 6, 1998 at 21:56:29 (EST)
Poster: David
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: And On Anand Ji
Subject: Re: Talking to a brick wall (Re: There is no Katie!)
Message:
It's a good meeting of minds, this thing, and I have learned a lot of useful stuff from the net. There's a wealth of useful information to be found. This ex-premie site has been invaluable to me, particularly since I don't know any premies or ex-premies. It's a good place to air your views and share a joke or two. I have learned more about Mr Rawat on the net than I ever did in years of satsang. But geographical distance keeps people apart plus the fact that it's much more relaxing to have a chin wag on the phone or face to face with someone. This web site has helped me a lot though. Have you ever tried that internet relay chat? I tried it once because I figured it would be more like talking person to person. Boy was I wrong. Perhaps I'm too old for it but the most I could yet was a brief conversation with some guy in Sao Paulo about the weather.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Mar 6, 1998 at 22:39:48 (EST)
Poster: And On Anand Ji
Email: aoa
To: David
Subject: Re: Talking to a brick wall (Re: There is no Katie!)
Message:
It's a good meeting of minds, this thing, and I have learned a lot of useful stuff from the net. There's a wealth of useful information to be found. This ex-premie site has been invaluable to me, particularly since I don't know any premies or ex-premies. It's a good place to air your views and share a joke or two. I have learned more about Mr Rawat on the net than I ever did in years of satsang. But geographical distance keeps people apart plus the fact that it's much more relaxing to have a chin wag on the phone or face to face with someone. This web site has helped me a lot though. Have you ever tried that internet relay chat? I tried it once because I figured it would be more like talking person to person. Boy was I wrong. Perhaps I'm too old for it but the most I could yet was a brief conversation with some guy in Sao Paulo about the weather.I've done IRC. The kids run rampant there -- there's a sense of community, I think -- but it is on what I'd have to say is a juvenile level of interaction. It's a fine modality, especially if real work is to be collaborated on; if the interested parties have a social contract with each other, outside of the context of "Gee, I have this walkie talkie; I guess I'll talk to whoever has their radio on." Didn't work for Citizen's Band radio (CB); doesn't work for IRC. It's not a culture to say "gee we both live on the Atlantic Ocean -- let's be pen pals!" Would that it did, or could. People need a bit more of a thread to pull on. I know programmers who can't find much in common with other programmers. In our computer club, we found a common interest in kayak and sailing, and found the computer angle dull, tedious and boring.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Mar 7, 1998 at 01:20:02 (EST)
Poster: Loophole in the
Email: **
To: Mili
Subject: Internet (Re: There is no Katie!)
Message:
None of those Mili. The phone is under someone elses name. I like it like that. Hartford, east hartford, and even though it's rich, west hartford is not a place to raise kids. I used to be in fabulous Glastonbury-the sister city of glastonbury england. But I moved across the river. You WERE premie weren't you. You are far to prolific to shut down for so long. On and Anand Ji lives in west hartford. I said to my wife lets change our name if ____________ turns out to be a go. She said sure. So if __________ _______, then I'm picking a new last name.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Mar 7, 1998 at 01:30:28 (EST)
Poster: Mili the
Email: **
To: Mili
Subject: Pushy Sperm (Re: There is no Katie!)
Message:
Shit, I'll probably agree with a lot of that. It isn't your own effort to merge into some unidentified thingee. No one can play lord without consequences (like the vast ones mahraji has) because there IS a god. And that god does NOT get merged into like it's a cosmic egg and you are the meditative pushy sperm.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Mar 7, 1998 at 01:37:33 (EST)
Poster: Angel expert
Email: bb
To: Katie
Subject: Ratzinger and Matthew Fox (Re: There is no Katie!)
Message:
matt fox is the clown who proclaims that angels go faster than the speed of light. With not a shred of anything to back it up. He just wen't on and on in his assumptions and proclamations He is not a player in the church so why shouldn't he get fired. Team player or start your own team. No shock.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Mar 7, 1998 at 02:10:10 (EST)
Poster: CD
Email:
To: Mili the
Subject: Re: Pushy Sperm (Re: There is no Katie!)
Message:
Shit, I'll probably agree with a lot of that. It isn't your own effort to merge into some unidentified thingee. No one can play lord without consequences (like the vast ones mahraji has) because there IS a god. And that god does NOT get merged into like it's a cosmic egg and you are the meditative pushy sperm. Bill, I can see that you really miss the Pussy Patch - g. Here's some Krishna for you. Well, I'm off to the Club See what kind of music God likes. I'll give you a phone call, CD Robots can find things
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Mar 7, 1998 at 02:24:25 (EST)
Poster: robot
Email: **
To: CD
Subject: Sperm (Re: There is no Katie!)
Message:
well, I did go to a stag tonight.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Mar 7, 1998 at 02:29:40 (EST)
Poster: Robotic
Email: bb
To: robot
Subject: DNA (Re: There is no Katie!)
Message:
I know I e-mailed and that left a phone address. But watch out for the women folk that live here! They detonate. And some of the adult male voices belong to the kids. And thier friends. And my wifes secret lover.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Mar 7, 1998 at 13:32:55 (EST)
Poster: And On Anand Ji
Email: aoa
To: Loophole in the
Subject: Re: Internet (Re: There is no Katie!)
Message:
The phone is under someone elses name. I like it like that. Those public directories are always one-to-one correspondence with the public white pages of the phone book -- names found in one will be found in the other. That's where the Internet databases come from.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index