Ex-Premie.Org |
Forum III Archive # 1 | |
From: Apr 4, 1998 |
To: Apr 11, 1998 |
Page: 2 Of: 5 |
Date: Wed, Apr 08, 1998 at 13:37:22 (EDT)
From: JW Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Zen's Non Sequitur Message: Somebody posting as 'Zen' posted a response to me that is now in the inactive index that gives new meaning to the term 'non sequitur.' I thought I would bring it up to see if anyone can make any sense of it, or if 'Zen' can explain why, when premies can't respond with anything that makes sense, they resort to meaningless parables. Zen wrote: 'If you use a chain saw to file your nails and you're having a hell of a time to keep from cutting your fingers off, after you stop using it, you look back on the whole chainsaw experience with somewhat of a skeptical eye. If A equals B, equals C, then A must equal C, right? If this is too deep, stop me.' Huh? Zen, I can't stop you from making meaningless statements that you dress up to make it sound like they have some sort of deep meaning, although if it is some sort of compulsion, I can see how you might want someone to do so. Why don't you just say in normal English what you mean, if you can that is? |
Date: Wed, Apr 08, 1998 at 13:59:35 (EDT)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: JW Subject: Zen's Non Sequitur Message: JW: I thought he was saying that devotion to MJ is like a chain saw, in that if you're not careful you can get your fingers cut off. I think he's saying that MJ is unsubtle and therefore uncool. Hard to tell though. The reiteration of the sylogism or principle of transitivity seems targetted to making the claim that he is logical. Hard to tell though. -Scott Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 08, 1998 at 14:03:27 (EDT)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: oops! Message: Excuse me, I meant syllogism. Just a typo... really! Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 08, 1998 at 14:42:58 (EDT)
From: John K. Email: None To: JW Subject: If a chain saw cuts a tree... Message: Joe, I'm surprised you have never heard this old zen story about the chain saw and cutting one's nails; zen masters have been telling this story for eons, they knew even before chains saws were invented that they would be very inappropriate to use for cutting one's nails. You have to look beyond the obvious and at the inner question that the story raises. Try to do one of your famous interpretive dances. Pretend you are holding a chain saw and cutting your nails, then jump up and down and writhe in agony. Then still your mind and reflect on your years in the ashram, and I think you'll understand. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 08, 1998 at 17:51:26 (EDT)
From: JW Email: None To: John K. Subject: If a chain saw cuts a tree... Message: John, I did what you suggested, but I am still lacking in understanding. I think it's because I gave a quarter to an orphan right before an eagle hit my windshield. I believe neither the orphan, nor the eagle, had a guiless heart. I could really relate to what Jim said in his satsang about Maharaji always being there. It's like today, we like totally lost this motion for summary judgment and I was like, really in my mind, you know?, and all the people I work with were so just so like freaked, you know? I mean, it's a multi-million-dollar case, but because I could go inside and realize that it was all an illusion and I just started laughing because Maharaji was like, there, and I was there, and I was fine, and I had this life and the opportunity to surrender to Maharaji in that moment, and it was like really beautiful, it was just so beautiful, and more and more, I'm just really seeing how Maharaji is always there, and I am always here, and I just pray that I can have more understanding and the grace to surrender to Maharaji, because he is there and I am here, more and more. And if the principals of the client get in their minds, I can go inside and not be affected by any threats that we are about to be sued for malpractice, by his grace, of course, you know? And we just really have to pray to goomraji for his grace to make effort to practice knowledge, more and more, because then we can see his golden face at every moment, especially at the time of our death, but then, like goomraji said, we don't even have the right to look at him, so his face will be there and I will be there, but I won't look at him because I am a worthless piece of crap. And then, by his grace, I heard this song on the radio and it said 'all we are is dust in the wind' and it was such grace to hear that and I know it was Maharaji talking to me through the radio and it was so beautiful and I knew in that moment it was true. And for every second I forget to remember goomraji, his word and his grace, it's just like sticking pins in my eyes, you know? It's so painful, and yet I forget anyway, this mind is so strong, and so all I can do it pray more and plead with Maharaji to save me and give me the grace to remember him and that he is there and I am here more and more. And it's so beautiful. Jai Satchitanand! Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 08, 1998 at 14:55:37 (EDT)
From: Rick Email: None To: JW Subject: Zen's Non Sequitur Message: I think maharaji is responsible for this kind of expression. He frequently used metaphors or comparisons to explain knowledge because it was impossible to conceptualize. Premies, including myself, quickly picked up on the opportunity to escape responsiblity for what they were saying, by comparing it to something else. That way, you never really saying anything WAS anything; you just said it was LIKE something. Add a little dysfuctionality and you have a statement like Zen made. Personally, I think he's threatening your fingers. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 08, 1998 at 15:16:47 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Rick Subject: It's like an orange Message: or maybe a mango. Even when we were card-carrying devotees we sometimes made fun of our propensity to give satsang by just opening our mouths and saying 'It's like a...' In fact, it got to the point where we drifted away from plugging any metaphor or analogy in and just used the 'it's like' to get things going. But, when we did reach for analogies we did so with amazingly tenacious if tedious imagination. Formula: take anything that happened to you (usually small stuff because, in our cloistered cult wombs, nothing much ever did happen), and turn it into an analogy for any point you might want to make. Don't think you can do it? Look, I'll show you how simple it is. Today, I had a trial which was adjourned because the complainant didn't show. Let's see what we can do with that. [close my eyes for a few moments. Turn, bow to picture of Maharaji. Not too long. Get up, turn and face premies (we're sitting cross-legged on carpeted ashram floor), open eyes, smile (sneak a glance at this one girl I can't stop thinking about when I'm not trying to surrender my life), close eyes again, hand s together 'Bhole Shri Satgurudev Maharaj ki jai!'. Open eyes] 'Jai Sat Chit Anand' [Everyone Jai's me] 'So, you know, it's like this trial I was supposed to do. I'm there, my client's there but, where's the complainant. Nowhere. And you know [here, I've got it now!] it's like Maharaji is always waiting for us. He's there, he's waiting to see what we're really into, what we really wnat to do. And we've made this 'complaint' you could say. We've complained tah life isn't enough, we want more. So he says 'okay. Meet me inside, meet me in your heart where I can really take care of things, I can handle your complaint' [At this point all the premies see where the analogy's going and, depending on how much they like to hear my voice, they either get into it as very low-grade but free and authorized entertainment, or they tune me out and think about how hypocritical I am or whatever they want to think about. I, on the other hand, knowign that I've found a good,safe analogy to blab on incessantly about, go on autopilot so that I can use just a bit of my consciousness trying, against all odds, to make myself somehow attractive to that girl. What if I showed my humour? How about sincerity? Does she like sincerity? Oh Maharaji, help me out here...] 'And we say, 'okay, Maharaji, I'll be there.' And we know how much it means to us to really do that, to really be there for him [It's okay to be torturously redundant in satsang because it's all filler and not the words anyway, right? Besides it gives you time to either feel the love that is actually KEEPING YOU ALIVE RIGHT NOW or to think about things, depending. This time, however, a pang of 'sincerity' hits me and, for a second, I lose the chick. My eyes start to water. This has happened before, but I wasn't expecting it now. Grace?] 'I mean, Maharaji's ALWAYS there for us, you know?' [Everyone sees that I'm suddenly, unexpectedly taken with a little emotion (sory, 'devotion'). Some fo the community premies who respect me as a good ashram borther are really touched. They close their eyes and breathe a little heavier. The ashram premies who know me better are torn. They don't want to give in and let me give them this kidn of devotional satsang. Yet they know it's all Maharaji and it wouldn't be me they'd be resisting, it'd be him. They close their eyes too. But the girl doesn't! She kkeps her eyes open and soon she's the only one I'm looking at. Naturally, I start thinking about her all over again, only this time it's her and Maharaji. I love them both!] 'So what are we going to do?' [I figure it's best to end my satsang abruptly. I've made my point, pissed on the fire-hydrant of propriety devotion again, shown my real stuff AND, at the same time, avoided boring anyone! I already know at least some of the people there are going to tell me afterwards it was 'good satsang.' Will she be one of them?] 'Bhole Shri..' [Everyone joins in only much louder than the first time] 'Satguru dev MAHARAJ KI JAI!' Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 08, 1998 at 15:27:40 (EDT)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Jim Subject: It's like an orange Message: Dear Jim (Jai's), Here I am at work and I had to get right down on the floor and cross my legs and close my eyes and it was only M's grace that let me continue reading your post. I really want to know though which do you enjoy more the heated arguments or your comedy show. You can guess what my choice would be! Robyn Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 08, 1998 at 15:37:32 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Robyn Subject: It's like an orange Message: Good question. I certainly felt better writing that post than I do arguing. On the other hand, it felt pretty good to get Bruce to admit that, despite his vociferous protests otherwise, his guru did indeed call himself God. I don't know. Fender or LesPaul? Golf or tennis? Topr or bottom? These are hard questions, Robyn. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 08, 1998 at 16:09:17 (EDT)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Jim Subject: short lived victory Message: Jim, It was good to see Bruce concede but immediately he said it didn't matter. It is, I fear a loosing game and I much more enjoy it when reading here makes me smile, chuckle and sometimes laugh out loud. Robyn Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 08, 1998 at 16:18:50 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Robyn Subject: Bruce as entertainment Message: Robyn, The word's 'lose'. But I get your point. Now, here's the thing, to someone standing back and watching this, say it was all fiction, you, me, Bruce.... and only Katie was real. But Katie wasn't a premie she was a reader. And Maharaji wasn't a guru, he, like us was just another character in a book by.... how about that woman who just wrote 'Three Continents'? So we're all playing our parts. Definitely Bruce would have brought smiles to any reader's face. So why can't we enjoy this as much while we're characters in motion? Well, that's a well-worn philosophical hippie puzzle if I've ever seen one. Bruce? You have any ideas how we can enjoy you a little more? Yours, Jim Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 08, 1998 at 15:42:18 (EDT)
From: Rick Email: None To: Jim Subject: It's like an orange Message: Premies like Vacol, A Premie, Student, Mili, CD, and Bruce would never be so adolescent in their pursuit within inside. If you had a good batting average during your premie years, it just could have been the 'Grace' that dished out the goodies. When you're in your sixties, you'll never know if you're unable to score because you abandoned the 'Grace' or because your just too old and decrepid. You'll die not knowing. To Robyn, Joy, Katie, Eb, and other womyn: I apologize for the despicable sexist talk in the above paragraph. I don't really mean it. I'm really sensitive. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 08, 1998 at 15:46:28 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Rick Subject: It's like an orange Message: Rick, You don't have to slam yourself carte blanche. Why not just say a part of you is capable of 'despicable sex talk'? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 08, 1998 at 15:53:53 (EDT)
From: Rick Email: None To: Jim Subject: It's like an orange Message: Jim, You really did have guilessness down to an art. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 08, 1998 at 15:56:30 (EDT)
From: Katie Email: None To: Rick Subject: It's like an orange Message: Hey Rick, I didn't hear any sexist talk, except your assumption that the statement would be sexist, which means you assume that only men think those kind of things! Satsang as mating call wasn't exclusively restricted to the male sex, you know... Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 08, 1998 at 16:05:31 (EDT)
From: Rick Email: None To: Katie Subject: It's like an orange Message: Oh, Katie, you're too generous. Terms like chick, scoring, and batting average are all diminunizing. It's true that women have recently begun behaving as badly as men, but I wonder if it's any real solution, or if I should allow it let me off the hook. It's just that I can't have a sense of humor and remain politically correct for long. But now, what kind of things do you say to the other gals? Rick Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 08, 1998 at 16:12:49 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Rick Subject: It's like an orange Message: Rick, I, too, am feeling the pain of sensitivity. I work around a lot of skirts and some of them ain't too shabby. I try to treat them like equals because, after all, they ARE like equals. Still, have you ever tried to really talk to a blond, argue with a redhead or tell a joke to a brunette? Dames, man. Can't live with 'em, can't live without 'em. (Go ahead, quote me) Jim Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 08, 1998 at 16:23:00 (EDT)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Katie Subject: sexist my arse Message: Katie, These men think they have cornered the market on deviant thought. You are enjoying all this fun here today to I'm sure. Robyn PS. Rick, but if you didn't apologize we would have expected it so best to cover your ass. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 08, 1998 at 16:35:35 (EDT)
From: Ironing John Email: None To: Robyn Subject: sexist my arse Message: Robyn, can you tone down your language a bit, please? Thank you. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 08, 1998 at 16:37:22 (EDT)
From: Katie Email: petkat@mail.trib.net To: Robyn Subject: sexist my arse Message: Yes, Robyn, we'd better not tell Rick what is in those off-topic e-mails (besides recipes, I mean). Sounds like he might have trouble dealing with it... Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 08, 1998 at 16:50:53 (EDT)
From: Rick Email: None To: Katie Subject: sexist my arse Message: I know the deal, Katie. Mili's a cyberhunk, right? All us littleboy ex's are off having intellectual debates, thinking we're impressing the ex's cheerleader squad. But in reality, the cheerleaders are talking about how cute the visiting team is. And people don't understand why men don't trust women. Men would never act like that. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 08, 1998 at 17:18:50 (EDT)
From: Katie Email: None To: Rick Subject: sexist my arse Message: Rick - I (seriously) hope you are joking! The 'ex's cheerleading squad'? The 'visiting team'? Men not trusting women? Tell me you're kidding, please. Katie P.S. And this is true: In our e-mails, we sometimes talk about things that happened in our pasts (relationships, etc). That's all I was referring to. This isn't a women-only phenomenon, either. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 08, 1998 at 17:27:18 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Katie Subject: Katie, I'll bet this one too Message: Katie, Before Rick replies I'd like to bet you your family farm, if you don't mind, that he was kidding. Rick, don't say anything! Katie? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 08, 1998 at 17:58:25 (EDT)
From: Katie Email: petkat@mail.trib.net To: Jim Subject: Katie, I'll bet this one too Message: Yeah, sure Jim, I will bet my family farm (ha ha). We really did have one, but it was in my dad's estate and it was sold in 1995. I don't think I have anything you want except possibly, I do have a small B&W photo that a friend of mine took of the hall and statge at the Ally Pally for Guru Puja 73. I want to scan it for Brian, but then you can have it. IF you win the bet that is... Seriously, I hope Rick is kidding too, so I'd be glad to lose this one. Katie Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 08, 1998 at 18:03:33 (EDT)
From: Katie Email: None To: Jim and Rick Subject: Cyberhunks Message: Also, does this cyberhunk stuff bother you guys? I think Mili knows that I am kidding. He does have his picture on the net, which is why I say it. Y'all are welcome to post yours at any time, and I will admire them as well. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 08, 1998 at 18:11:29 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Katie Subject: Cyberhunks Message: Katie, You're sure Mili knew you were kidding? Are YOU kidding? He thought my parody of Maharaji ('Make a sandwich, watch TV') was seriously mean to mislead. He thought my fake TV interview (now censored) was a serious ploy in our smear campaign. Katie, love has blinded you once again. Jim Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 08, 1998 at 18:38:55 (EDT)
From: Katie Email: petkat@mail.trib.net To: Jim Subject: Cyberhunks Message: OK, Jim, I didn't mean I was joking about Mili being a nice-looking guy. Mili IS a nice-looking guy. So are you (I like Jewish men a lot, by the way, but have you ever tried to have a relationship with one?) So is CD. So is JW. So is my husband (my personal favorite). The joke was in the use of the term 'cyberhunk', which I used to parody all the 'babes on the web' stuff that men have put around. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 08, 1998 at 18:42:14 (EDT)
From: Katie Email: petkat@mail.trib.net To: Jim Subject: by the way... Message: By the way, what are you betting here? Don't try and palm off any old GMJ stuff on me. How about a tape of your band or something? Unless you actually have a family farm... Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 08, 1998 at 19:16:00 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Katie Subject: by the way... Message: Actually, I was going to put my old couch in the pot. Lots of tapes but notihng to give anyone. Keep trying to arrange recording dates for a CD. I've written a couple of really sweet love songs that I'd LOVE to get Die-a-lotta to sing. I don't know why you go on and on about looks. Didn't our generation determine looks don't matter? I certainly don't love my girlfriend for hers. Why, that would be superficial and insulting. What if she developed this terrible skin disease AND put on another 200 pounds? What? Like I'm going to love her any less? Smell too. I don't know why people go on and on about these things. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 08, 1998 at 19:32:15 (EDT)
From: Katie Email: petkat@mail.trib.net To: Jim Subject: by the way... Message: So, do you still think he was kidding? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 08, 1998 at 19:36:39 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Katie Subject: by the way... Message: I can't remember who we're talking about. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 08, 1998 at 19:55:09 (EDT)
From: Rick Email: None To: Jim Subject: by the way... Message: What's in it for me? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 08, 1998 at 20:08:46 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Rick Subject: by the way... Message: Oh yeah, it was you. Rick, this is your chance to really expose Katie for what she is. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 08, 1998 at 20:19:02 (EDT)
From: Rick Email: None To: Jim Subject: by the way... Message: From one Jew to another, Jim, you're a huckster. I just sent off a cherished UK maggy (1979) called 'All God's Children'. It cost me $1.83 in postage. It was weighed on a delicate computerized scale, to be sure of the correct postage. I get home, and no sooner do I get connected, that I see you're hustling Katie for more goods. Now I want to know what's in this for me, as I've had a particularly unlucrative week; I stuck my foot in my mouth and lost a piece of memorabilia history. I'm willing to go to the highest bidder. Don't get me wrong. I'm equally dismayed of Katie's affections (excluding the cyberhunk syndrome) toward Mili. It's clear that a tainted character can squeak by her creep detector, but I'm not sure that showing her difficulty reading me will translate into Mili getting his just desserts. We'll just have to see what you're willing to put on the table. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 08, 1998 at 20:33:34 (EDT)
From: David van Edam Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk To: Katie Subject: sexist joke Message: Why did the woman cross the road? Because the chain which chained her to the kitchen sink was too long. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 08, 1998 at 20:35:55 (EDT)
From: VP Email: None To: David van Edam Subject: sexist joke Message: David, I woman friend of mine used to say that 'a woman's place is in the house...and in the Senate' (just making up for my other post, before I am eaten alive here) VP Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 10, 1998 at 08:56:21 (EDT)
From: David van Edam Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk To: VP Subject: Another sexist joke Message: Why did another woman cross the road? That's not important - she should have been in the kitchen. Hey I seem to have got away with this! Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 10, 1998 at 09:00:45 (EDT)
From: David van Edam Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk To: David van Edam Subject: Here's one for the women Message: Why can't men drive through narrow spaces? Because they think ________________ is six inches. That one should get me out of trouble! Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 09, 1998 at 10:22:07 (EDT)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Katie Subject: sexist my arse Message: Katie, You let the cat out of the bag and just when we had them drooling! Robyn PS. I have heard that a couple of the premies are worth a peek though. Sorry guys. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 08, 1998 at 20:33:55 (EDT)
From: VP Email: None To: Rick Subject: sexist my arse Message: Rick, You know how women are...if you don't apologize, they jump all over you. If you do apologize, then they say they don't know what you are talking about. It's a Catch 22 with women all of the time. Oh, sorry girls, no offense, please:) VP Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 08, 1998 at 20:40:34 (EDT)
From: Rick Email: None To: VP Subject: sexist my arse Message: Yes, VP, I got a healthy dose of that this afternoon. Katie made me all comfortable to be sexist but then when I made a joke about cheerleaders, I got put in my place fast. I finally thought, 'It's okay to be me. I can put women down, because they do the same.' I smell 'set-up'. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 08, 1998 at 20:51:25 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Rick Subject: It IS okay to be you, Rick Message: See, Rick, that's the lesson they don't want you to learn. It's okay to be you. It's also okay to think about cheerleaders. We should have more cheerleaders, that's what I think. And we should be able to joke about all of them, the ones we've already got and the new ones I'm ordering. As for the bet, Rick, like so much of your experience with Maharaji, there's absolutely nothing in it for you. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 08, 1998 at 20:59:21 (EDT)
From: Rick Email: None To: Jim Subject: It IS okay to be you, Rick Message: Okay, Jim, you got a laugh out of me. So I'll put forth the truth. I was kidding, Katie. KIDDING... JOKING. How could you doubt me? In keeping with this discovery, why not give Mili's character another once over. And Jim, don't forget to tell Katie about the bloody postage... sheesh. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 08, 1998 at 21:38:25 (EDT)
From: Katie Email: petkat@mail.trib.net To: Rick Subject: Sheesh, Rick Message: Rick - I thought I posted a response to you, but I can't find it (so forgive me if this is a duplicate). I would like to straighten things out with you, but it's something I would prefer to discuss off the forum (it's sort of unnerving knowing that 20 or 30 people are reading all your posts). So please e-mail me, if you would, unless you don't want to be indicted as part of the great ex-premie e-mail conspiracy. Thanks, Katie Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 08, 1998 at 21:09:09 (EDT)
From: Katie Email: petkat@mail.trib.net To: VP Subject: sexist my arse Message: Shame on you, VP! And I thought you were one of those sensitive seventies guys! Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 08, 1998 at 21:19:45 (EDT)
From: VP Email: None To: Katie Subject: sexist my arse Message: Dearest Housemother, With this post I think I pull ahead of Scott T. You are correct, it was all in fun of course. Lovin' the ladies, VP Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 08, 1998 at 15:51:04 (EDT)
From: John K. Email: None To: Jim Subject: cooking w/fruits and nuts Message: I was laughing out loud here at work Jim, reading your excellent rememberance of 'the way we were'. We've simply got to make a movie, it would become a true 'cult' classic. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 08, 1998 at 17:08:26 (EDT)
From: Jack Email: None To: Jim Subject: It's like an orange Message: Jim, your post was so real I could almost smell your feet. Didn't you usually sing a song somewhgere in there? Hey bud, you owe me lunch. Jack Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 08, 1998 at 17:17:03 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Jack Subject: It's like an orange Message: Hi Jack, I don't know why I left the song out. Maybe the pain of coming so close, yet being so far. If you're coming back over to Victoria next weekened I'm having a party for a friend Saturday who's moving to Montreal. Should be fun. Give me a call or just drop me some threatening email and I'll give you the details. We'll show 'em that the cowboys and the farmers can be friends! Jim (Didn't I pay for lunch? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 08, 1998 at 17:37:45 (EDT)
From: Jack Email: None To: Jim Subject: It's like an orange Message: Jim No plans to be in Victoria this weekend. I'll let you know next time I'm in town. Jack (Yeah I remember there was some confusion around the bill and I think you ended up paying, or something. We'll work it out.) Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 08, 1998 at 21:06:48 (EDT)
From: VP Email: None To: Jim Subject: It's like an orange Message: Jim, I'm rolling on the floor! I swear, once this guy DID say, 'It's like an orange'...or was it a pineapple? Very realistic portrayal of Satsang. Fortunately I never had to give it, but unfortunately I did have to receive it. It was fun to look at the opposite sex around the room. (Especially when I was just entering puberty!) Too bad hardly anyone bathed back then, as it was less fun smelling them. VP Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 09, 1998 at 02:42:56 (EDT)
From: Mirabai Email: None To: Jim Subject: It's like an orange Message: Yes,a lot of people were into a lot of nonsense and still are. that's why satsang is not shared anymore....Nonsense is now expressed in other ways....Neutrality is the code now and people try very hard to not be trippy,devotional sat sangy premies...People are often very suppressed it would seem now...Afraid to give the wrong impression,too afraid to make mistakes. These are criticisms which I feel and that is why I am enjoying the opportunity to express myself in the forum....But once againg,I reiterate....there are bound to be imperfections in his way of reaching as many people as possible when it comes to truly following ones heart....it seems so many people here come from the 70's and I can't comment here.....Yes Maharaji is human and did make mistakes and continues....I never did believe for a moment that he was god....A lot of people it seems payed dearly for Ms' mistakes back then and believed in stuff which they needed to believe and just can't let the past go....Things really are different now....Do people really believe the stuff about M being into all this as a power trip and wanting all the power of being worshipped?....It's all a bit strange if you ask me...people have got their own nonsense to look at in the whole picture. How many of us have the real courage to look honestly at our own 'stuff'...Very few human beings have what it takes to truly transform their inner selves.........M has his faults but it is obvious that he is very genuine in his attempt to reach as many people that he can with the message that what we need is within us.........What in heavens name are you all getting the impression that you are getting....Let go of this need for black or white attitude...OK...He made mistakes...........He is not god and never was and maybe he did overstate himself.(I wasn't around then) Look at what he has been doing for at least the past 13 years and he looks very clean to me. believe I do not have a vested interest in not seeing the flaws. I am willing to see them alright...He has a simple message to share with all those who want to hear and that's about the extent of it...That's how it's been essentially for me...I'm somewhat realistic about the imperfections that a teacher can have.....Krishnamurti had a dark side as well....And probable other great teachers did as well...To get a perspective on the subject involves a great deal of introspection and meditation and insight into oneself..Many great teachers spoke the language that I could relate to...Their words were mirrors of my own divinity within...I follow noone....I am a seeker of the wisdom within and appreciate the variety of ways that teachers express themselves... Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 09, 1998 at 09:18:35 (EDT)
From: John K. Email: kreilkamp@mindspring.com To: Mirabai Subject: To Mirabai Message: Mirabai: You say: 'He is not god and never was and maybe he did overstate himself.(I wasn't around then) Look at what he has been doing for at least the past 13 years and he looks very clean to me.' Maybe he did overstate himself? Maybe? Come on, you're making me laugh, so I thank you for the humor you bring into my life. [What does 'mira' mean anyway? I think 'bai' means a female great soul? Is that really your name?] Okay, so you admit that he did overstate himself. What has he done for the past 13 years? I'm serious because I have no idea. I have seen a few of the videos he has made, and my impression is that they are bland and repetitious. I can't really imagine anyone but the faithful and adoring masses responding that positively to them. Anyway, leaving M was a very postive step in my life. Dedicating my life to him was a dead end. Period. I have heard he abolished the whole thing (ashrams) a year after I left, so the ashrams were clearly a failed experiment. Why not judge him on what he has done with people's lives? We are people, we are simply stating our experience. I am sure there are many more like us who given the opportunity would agree with us on the value of his leadership. Now, on the other hand perhaps you can get something wonderful from him. But I think you deserve the warning that this forum offers. How much do you really want to give to him, how much do you really want to trust him. I don't think he had a clue as to what he was doing with people's lives 20 years ago, and I am willing to bet he still doesn't. I wish you the best. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 09, 1998 at 10:36:37 (EDT)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: John K. Subject: To Mirabai Message: Dear John, So much for skipping premie's posts. It's a hard row to hoe, some down home country verbage there. Have a great weekend, Robyn Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 09, 1998 at 10:41:52 (EDT)
From: John K. Email: None To: Robyn Subject: A Joke, very small Message: 'A tough row to ho' I thought that was an expression that Santa Claus used when there was a particularly tough row of houses coming up. You know Santa's always expected to be saying HO HO HO. For 100 points, what song did John Lennon used that expression in? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 09, 1998 at 11:37:20 (EDT)
From: eb Email: None To: John K. Subject: A Joke, very small Message: Oh Bla Di? (I need the points). Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 09, 1998 at 11:47:35 (EDT)
From: John K. Email: None To: eb Subject: BZZZ wrong! Message: Sorry eb, in fact now you're at negative 100 points. Remember I said a John Lennon song. Ob la Di was written with Paul and actually Paul probably wrote the whole thing, it's Paul's style. Silly. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 09, 1998 at 12:03:34 (EDT)
From: eb Email: None To: John K. Subject: BZZZ wrong! Message: Damn. And I really needed those points. Well, will you take some old copies of Divine Times to cover my debt? eb Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 09, 1998 at 12:49:42 (EDT)
From: David de Camembert Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk To: John K. Subject: Is this right Message: 'I am the Walrus'. Well I know it is right, 'Ho ho ho, hee hee hee' and please add my points to the other hundred I got the other week. I'm the undisputed champion now. Anyone think they're hard enough to challenge me? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 09, 1998 at 13:05:00 (EDT)
From: John K. Email: None To: David de Camembert Subject: Oops, my bad! Message: David and eb: I was talking about the expression, 'it's a tough row to hoe'. What song did Lennon use THAT expression in? Not, 'ho ho ho'. Sorry for the confusion. So, yeah, I think eb was right about 'ho ho ho' in ob la di. And yeah ho ho ho is in I am the Walrus too probably. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 09, 1998 at 13:08:24 (EDT)
From: VP Email: None To: John K. Subject: Oops, my bad! Message: Beautiful Boy is the song, but the words are, 'a hard road to hoe' aren't they? Talking about waiting for his son to come of age. Very sad looking at it now. VP Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 09, 1998 at 13:27:02 (EDT)
From: John K. Email: None To: VP Subject: Hoe a road c'mon! Message: That's right, 'Beautiful Boy'. Now whether he is singing road or row I guess I don't really know... I always assumed it was 'row' since that's the expression and how the hell do you hoe a road? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 09, 1998 at 14:33:41 (EDT)
From: VP Email: None To: John K. Subject: And the winner is... Message: Hey, I think you are right! It's supposed to be 'a hard row to hoe.' Do I still get the 100 points for getting the song correct? Or better yet, do I get an old copy of one of those sappy old mags like AIID? My parents threw all of mine away, with my Pillsbury dough boy, I'm sure. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 09, 1998 at 17:11:39 (EDT)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: David de Camembert Subject: Is this right Message: David, I think we should ask Participant to make us a chart to keep track of this point thing. God I was right up there on the cart for # of posts and yet I knew nothing about racking up points. Could I win that Subaru? But then I'm not very good and these types of games, damn. You know the blonde thing. Robyn PS. I loved the David de Brie and now I have to fess up that I don't know the original story other than what I've sermized. Any care to let me in the loop? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 09, 1998 at 18:20:39 (EDT)
From: VP Email: None To: Robyn Subject: Is this right Message: Robyn, David originally posted something about some service to M. I wouldn't do it justice to summarize it for you- you have to read the original post. I don't know how to re-post something. I'm sure it's very simple but I don't have these posts downloaded. Maybe someone who has this skill would re-post it for you-up top as a new thread. VP Limberger Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 09, 1998 at 19:54:38 (EDT)
From: Mirabai Email: None To: John K. Subject: To Mirabai Message: John K. If I had been around Maharsji about 20 years ago and had not found a way to express my grievances,then I can well understand that people are enjoying the opportunity to express themselves now. I suspect that ifI had been around then,I may have felt aggrieved as well. Fortunately over these 13 years I have periodically expressed negative things and never tried to uphold a perfect image of M...I've always considered that an open mind is essential and following anything or anyone blindly is foolish. Many people here on this forum it would seem have been isolated and suppressed in coming out and saying how they have really felt.....I can understand this....I have felt suppressed as well in my own way....Often people who support a teacher do so blindly as so many 'premies' do and it is not easy to speak ones mind to the EV crowd.I've had my gripes about M and I've got it off my chest slowly and it has not had a chance to build up over years....It's natural to question and be critical. But at the end of the day,I always felt that Ms' positives outweighed his negatives by far. By the way I don't know what Mira Bai means,,I just like the name..I chose it for the chat rooms...and decided I may as well keep it for the forum....No,it is not my real name... . When you watched those few videos,I can imagine that your feelings about them were very much coloured by your negative feelings of the past...If you want to know what is happening now then you have to be fresh and to have cleared out your past grievances. Thankyou for wishing me the best...I wish the same to you. . Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 09, 1998 at 20:31:16 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Mirabai Subject: To Mirabai Message: Mirabai, What's 'happening now' is pretty vague, don't you think? What about the truth? This guru pretended to be God and sucked a whole lot of people into literally trying to give their lives to him. So, what's happening now, as far as I can tell, is that he's still ripping people off, gratned with a slightly toned-down style and, maybe more importantly, he's stone-walling anyone who wants to confront him about the past. Next time you see him, ask him why he called himself the 'Supreme Lord in Human Form'? That should make for some nice conversation. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 09, 1998 at 15:33:38 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Mirabai Subject: Mirabai, please Message: Mirabai, Moments after saying M 'overstated himself' you said: How many of us have the real courage to look honestly at our own 'stuff? That's called 'integrity' and 'accountability' where I come from. Are you saying Maharaji has exhibited anything of the sort? Unbelievable. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 09, 1998 at 22:38:59 (EDT)
From: mirabai Email: None To: Jim Subject: To Jim and everyone Message: To Jim Is that why you are so aggrieved? Because maharaji has not communicated to the people from back then? I can understand this feeling. There are not enough opportunities for people to express personally to him and I think this is wrong. I like to look at the deficiencies that are there and to be ballanced in my overall views. I have no vested interest in covering up his faults and trying to justify them...I'm not in your situation so it's very different for me...When I became involved things were just so so different...I found your post regarding sex,I can't remember what it was called but it was about being celibate and renouncing worldly things and many other things...I've never had to deal with any of that sort of stuff. If I had met him at that time,I have to admit I don't think I would've been very attracted to Maharaji,but it's so speculative for me,as I wasn't there. The message after 13 years is still the same as it was then,,,GO WITHIN. Jim,have you had other great teachers that you have benifited from or did you put all your eggs into Ms basket? Did you stop thinking for yourself? Are you trying to over make up for it now? Actually. many great teachers have touched my life and I've never completely agreed with what they all had to say...I've been able to stand on my own ground and take the best of what they've had to offer. Many people have wanted the one teacher to be the perfect recipe, and to be able to follow their every word. But so many don't understand the teachers words in the first place...Words are often misunderstood and taken literally and taken in all sorts of contexts that are not relevant or accurate. For example,people think that following their heart translates as...don't think anymore and mind is your enemy... Mirabai Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 08, 1998 at 13:16:19 (EDT)
From: David of Cheddar Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk To: Brian Subject: No journey Message: Hi Brian; I sent a my 'journey' to the web page but it hasn't appeared yet. Is this in order or has it disappeared? Thanks. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 08, 1998 at 22:29:24 (EDT)
From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: David of Cheddar Subject: No journey YET Message: I got it okay. I haven't put it online yet. I get most of my stuff here done on the weekend when I have more time. You'll see it then. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 08, 1998 at 23:31:42 (EDT)
From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: Brian Subject: Aw, what the hell Message: I put it online tonight, since I had to delete a duplicate entry that Katie pointed out to me. I also got a sort of entry from 'Sally' that consisted of just 'Sally'. Sally, if you're out there, you didn't send anything but your name. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 09, 1998 at 00:53:03 (EDT)
From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: Brian Subject: Speaking of Journeys Message: I just noticed that there has been a broken link to an entry for a long time. Rick Wiener's entry is now readable. BTW, does anyone know if I spelled his last name right? I got a bit muddled on this entry evidently and had two different spellings. Had to settle on one, but I have my doubts about it. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 09, 1998 at 00:58:37 (EDT)
From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: Brian Subject: Oops - Sorry, Rick Message: I just re-read his email address and realized that it is the entry belonging to the Rick that is posting here all the time. Sorry, Rick. Check out your entry and let me know what else I've screwed up. I'm going to bed now before I break something... Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 09, 1998 at 02:34:09 (EDT)
From: Rick Email: None To: Brian Subject: Oops - Sorry, Rick Message: Everything's fine on my Journey entry but the spelling of my last name. It should be Wienir. Thanks Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 09, 1998 at 08:19:36 (EDT)
From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: Rick Subject: Oops - Sorry, Rick Message: Consider it fixed. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 08, 1998 at 11:58:49 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Everyone Subject: OK, Bruce, what about these Message: Bruce, You're really the joker, aren't you? Trying to pretend that Maharaji never claimed he was God. And then, when Mr. Ex shows you a direct quote where he said just that, saying ' well find me one in English.' What you said afterwards was really dumb too, that saying this in India amounts to a different claim (not!), and then flipping over to 'well, how many people believed Jesus?'. At the risk of offending some of the gentler souls here, Bruce, I'm about ready to call you a real idiot. An old-fashioned numbskull. A dummy. Yes, that's how you're beginning to look, Bruce, like a dummy. Anyway, here are a few quotes for you to consider: Here's Maharaji, in 1977, confirming just how powerful he really is. Comparing himself to Jesus, he said: 'You look at Christ, for isntance. And he came and was Perfect Master. According to the belief, he had enough power that after he was crucified, he came back. So, you think twice about this and you figure, if somebody has got a power -- and it was incredible as to be able to to be crucified and them come back again -- you can definitely figure out that he must ahve the power to sort of take the whole Earth and jiggle it once in a plastic bag. Give it a little twist, all us teensy-weensy things go falling into this palstic bag. He opens it up and says, 'Listen, you thing in there. Realize the purpose of your life, aim of your life. This is it. Period.' How 'bout this exchange in 1971: Q - To whom should we give our devotion? A - Guru. Q - Shouldn't we give our devotion to God? A - What is God? Q - Well, Guru is a personification of God in this Earth, right? A - I told you yesterday: Who is Guru? The highest manifestation of God is Guru. So when Guru is here, God is here, to whom will you give your devotion? **** When God has come here, then what is the need to give devotion to God there? You want to know where your guru taught you to be a cowardly liar like himself? Try his first question and answer session after the debacle of Millenium '73 (I warn you, it's unintelligible. All that comes through clearly is his embarrasment): Q - Maharaj Ji, in Montrose you were saying that a very strange thing is going to happen, and the whole world will know who is God. And you said it would happen real soon. A - I think it is happening right now. Don't you understand the engergy crisis? What is it? Something for people to understand: that there is a personality like God. Adn without him we are just pieces of junk, nothing else. And it's like, somebody has to really look up to it, you know. It's like, God is THERE, all the time. But for a person to see Him and underwstand Him, anyway he ahs to look UP to Him. But it's like, God is giving us all these indications of His presence. You know? If he does... Look. The thing is, if somebody goes and does soemthing good, he will go and goof around all Arizona probably, saying ' I have done something good.' But if he does something bad, and he blows it [ed. like predicting the dawning of the millenium], you know, it means he just really blew it. Then he is going to blame it on somebody else; not on himself. So if God does something good for people, people will never understand it. People don't! Q -- Is there going to be any big event, or cataclysmic occurence, or some big sign...? A -- Even if it is happening right now, the biggest event in that you are alive. That's the BIGGEST event. God has given you so many things, and that's the biggest gift. And it's like, if you cannot understand that, forget it, man. There can't be anything more after that. You see, He has made everything and is sustaining it. He is SUSTAINING you. And that's the biggest thing! This big globe and everything you see is for a man to live. Hmm? And that little thing that makes the man survive, when it leaves a man, everything is just no more for him. And it's like, all that there IS in this whole universe is for that one little thing. And God has givben you that. And that's the biggest event in our lives. Q - Maharaji, wre you pleased with the way tha tthe Millenium program went? Did you like it? A -- Oh sure. It was fantastic. Even if that program had been held in this little ashram, believe me, it would have been fantastic. [Hey, maybe it wouldn't have bankrupted his organization and made him the laughingstock of the world?]. It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. See, the Colorado program, Montrose program, was so beautiful. So what difference does it make if it happened in the jungle or the Houston Astrodome? [A few hundred grand, I'd wager]. It's always fantastic to describe God..... [blah, blah, blah] Finally, from 1971, a little humble cosmology: 'Why do we have this human body? To know this, we will have to take the shelter of Guru Maharja Ji. Guru Maharj Ji knows all. Guru Maharaji is Brahma (creator). Guru Maharaji is Vishnu (Operator). Guru Maharjai is Shiva (Destoryer of illusion and ego). And above all, Guru Mahraji is the Supremest Lord in person before us.' Finally, my favorites: 1)Who is Guru? The highest manifestation of God is Guru. So when Guru is here, God is here, to whom will you give your devotion? 2)Guru Maharj Ji knows all. Guru Maharaji is Brahma (creator). Guru Maharaji is Vishnu (Operator). Guru Maharjai is Shiva (Destoryer of illusion and ego). And above all, Guru Mahraji is the Supremest Lord in person before us. 3)I have come so powerful. I have come for the world. Whenever the great come,the worldly oppose them. Again I have come and you are not listening. Every ear should hear that the saviour of humanity has come. There should be no chance for anyone to say that they haven't heard of Guru Maharaj Ji. Those who have come to me are already saved. Now its your duty to save others. Shout it on the streets. Why be shy? Well? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 08, 1998 at 13:41:51 (EDT)
From: Mili Email: mili@cheerful.com To: Jim Subject: OK, Bruce, what about these Message: I'd just like to add my favorite quote here. Of course, unlike my 'friend' Jim, I believe Maharaji was on the level when he said this. This twelve-year old Indian boy spoke in front of a million people in New Delhi on November 20, 1970. After weeping for nearly an hour, he said: 'These tears are not because I am remembering my father, but because I am feeling so much power in me. They are tears of strength. I have come for the world. Whenever the great come, the wordly oppose them. Again I have come and you are not listening. Every ear should hear that the savior of humanity has come. There should be no chance for anyone to say they haven't heard of Guru Maharaj Ji. Those who come to me are already saved. Now it's your duty to save others. Shout it on the streets. Why be shy? Give me your love, I will give you peace. Come to me, I will relieve you of your suffering. I am the source of peace in this world. All I ask of you is your love. All I ask is your trust. And what I can give you is such a peace as will never die. I declare I will establish peace in this world. But what can I do unless men come to me with love in their heart and a keen wish to know peace and truth?' Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 08, 1998 at 14:01:16 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Mili Subject: OK, Bruce, what about these Message: Mili, Good to hear from you again. Listen, we're ad item as they say on this one. I love this quote too. Care to discuss it? I find it pretty bizarre that M says the 'saviour of humanity has come' and then, with true messianic flare, warns people that this is their chance, no one's going be able to say they hadn't heard of Maharaji. What the hell? This entire quote Mili completely wreaks of Koresh, Jim Jones, you name it. Here is all the evidence one could hope for that Maharaji claimed to be Lord and -- this is particularly germane to what you and I were last talking about -- that he exhortated his followers to drop everything, trust him completely and go wild proclaiming that the Lord was here. Face it, Mili, Maharaji was trying to turn us all into apocalyptic Chicken Little's. You, for wahtever reason, didn't go along. Thanks again for the quote. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 08, 1998 at 20:51:24 (EDT)
From: VP Email: None To: Mili Subject: OK, Mili, what about this Message: 'There should be no chance for anyone to say that they have not heard of Guru Maharaj Ji...Shout it in the streets. Why be so shy?' At the risk of driving a point into the ground, where is the listing for Elan Vital in my phone book? Just Curious, VP P.S. I know you aren't American so you probably can't really answer this. Just making a point. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 08, 1998 at 10:52:22 (EDT)
From: John K. Email: None To: Everyone Subject: History Lesson Message: Well, here I go, doing what I have vowed not to do. Vows are meant to be broken, right? Anyway, boys and girls, this is the lesson for this morning: 'Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it.' The common and frequent criticism that p's throw at us is, 'hey bro and sis, get out of the past, get into the 90's, this is a whole new M! You're so stuck in that heavy 70's stuff.' The criticism is that we choose to look at the history of what M has done. The followers are doing exactly what M wants, which is to forget and ignore the past, namely HIS past. He claimed to be perfect master then. Why shouldn't those actions and words he used as perfect master then, still be valid today? Or was he in fact not quite as evolved in the pefect master state as he is now? And was it just my bad karma to get involved with this perfect master of this age in this life, before he had reached his full maturity? In looking at the history, I do believe it was an immature guru who created the ashrams and premie communities of the 70's and early 80's. The immature guru was focused on creating physical toys and not on the people interested in dedicating themselves to him. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 08, 1998 at 10:02:06 (EDT)
From: Mirabai Email: None To: Everyone Subject: CONFUSED Message: Some messages fail,some don't Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 08, 1998 at 10:20:32 (EDT)
From: Katie Email: petkat@mail.trib.net To: Mirabai Subject: CONFUSED Message: Dear Mirabai - I have read your messages and I can't figure out why the forum is not working for you. But I don't know all that much about computers. Brian is the webmaster on this site (he designed the forum) and might be able to help you, but he is at work right now, and probably won't be back until evening (US time). If you want to e-mail him, his address is: brian@ex-premie.com Sorry that you're having so many problems posting. Katie Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 08, 1998 at 10:47:28 (EDT)
From: Katie Email: None To: Mirabai Subject: Wrong e-mail address for Brian Message: Dear Mirabai - Sorry, I gave you the wrong e-mail address for Brian! It is: brian@ex-premie.org I should proofread my posts before submitting them! Katie Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 09, 1998 at 00:32:44 (EDT)
From: MIrabai Email: None To: Katie Subject: Wrong e-mail address for Brian Message: Thanks again Katie,I had his email address anyway and I wrote to him last night!!! Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 08, 1998 at 23:51:18 (EDT)
From: Mirabai Email: None To: Katie Subject: CONFUSED Message: Hi Katie,thanks a lot for responding to my messages.Yesterday they didn't appear to go in and now I look and see they are all there!!Hopefully it will be ok now.bye for now... Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 08, 1998 at 09:58:58 (EDT)
From: Mirabai Email: None To: Everyone Subject: succeeding Message: Seems they are working maybe? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 08, 1998 at 09:50:52 (EDT)
From: Mirabai Email: None To: Everyone Subject: fail message Message: Messages are failing to go to forum,can't understand why? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 08, 1998 at 08:39:14 (EDT)
From: Mirabai Email: None To: Everyone Subject: message failing!!! Message: *Why are the messages failing to go on the forum?* Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 08, 1998 at 08:57:29 (EDT)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Mirabai Subject: Just kidding Message: I don't think it's the asterisks. It must be something on your system, with the way the browser is set up, or your memory allocation or something. Also, where are you posting from? If you're in Australia or something there may be a long delay for the message to work it's way around the net. -Scott Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 09, 1998 at 00:35:53 (EDT)
From: MIrabai Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: Just kidding Message: Thanks for responding to my messages..Yes I am from Australia and I noticed all my messages are in today but they didn't come up yesterday or should I say some did and some didn't.. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 08, 1998 at 22:35:30 (EDT)
From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: Mirabai Subject: Leave out the asterisks Message: I don't have time to track this down right now, and you are the only person who seems to insist on using asterisks. Stop and you won't have that particular problem anymore. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 08, 1998 at 23:22:03 (EDT)
From: Mirabai Email: None To: Brian Subject: Leave out the asterisks Message: The messages did not go in yestersday and now I look and see them there today,it seems to take a long time to reach their destination. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 08, 1998 at 23:49:55 (EDT)
From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: Mirabai Subject: Leave out the asterisks Message: If you posted them yesterday, they were here then. Why you couldn't see them is beyond me. There is no in transit state with HTML that causes information to show up at a later time/date. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 08, 1998 at 08:35:44 (EDT)
From: Mirabai Email: None To: Everyone Subject: still can't .Am frustrated!!! Message: Why am I failing? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 08, 1998 at 08:45:42 (EDT)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Mirabai Subject: It's your agya. Message: Mirabai: Don't you know you've been given agya to stay off this site? What do you expect as the consequence of disobedience, for heaven sake! -Scott Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 09, 1998 at 00:41:12 (EDT)
From: Mirabai Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: It's your agya. Message: Hi Scott.right I thought so, even though I don't know what agya means but I get your drift!!I'm just joking of course as well! Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 08, 1998 at 08:11:56 (EDT)
From: Mirabai Email: None To: Everyone Subject: message still failing Message: * message still failing??? * Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 08, 1998 at 08:29:19 (EDT)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Mirabai Subject: Try dropping asterisks Message: There may be an unresolved problem with asterisks or something. Just a guess. I notice you are the only person that uses them. -Scott Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 08, 1998 at 08:05:32 (EDT)
From: Mirabai Email: None To: Everyone Subject: some messages fail,why Message: *Still having difficulty sending messages,some work,others don't and not straight away like I've been told they do.???* Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 08, 1998 at 08:26:25 (EDT)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Mirabai Subject: Which Gospel Message: Mirabai: You are clearly not the Mirabai I knew in L.A. in 1975. Others will correct me if I'm wrong, but by 1984 MJ was singing a much different tune than when he started. The US has this Whig- Jeffersonian tradition that keeps us from holding the 'God/Man' in very high esteem over the long haul. He had to change his message, or pack up and go back to India. You are not the first premie to come on the forum and declare 'What, me worry?' As for the inner connection. I agree that maintaining it is subtle, but I can still gain access. I'm an intellectual, so it doesn't play the same role in my life as it does for people with a more 'aesthetic' nature. I think this is true of others as well. We have varying opinions about the value of Knowledge, but are in pretty solid agreement about the doughboy himself. Have you investigated David Lane's 'Neural Surfer' site at UCSD? It seems that MJ's claim to an exclusive franchise is not all that sound. PS: I don't know why you are having trouble posting. What browser are you using, and what version? -Scott Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 09, 1998 at 00:49:49 (EDT)
From: Mirabai Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: Which Gospel Message: To Scott,I have still failed to see why people are so against Maharaji,what are your reasons for being against him?...I have a lot of speculation as to why so many have turned away from him...Over the next weeks and so on I will look into all of these responses in myself and from this forum...It's all very interesting to hear so much being said....There has been little to share with people since my involvement...Not much communication in positive or negative terms. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 10, 1998 at 08:37:37 (EDT)
From: Petrou Email: None To: Mirabai Subject: Which Gospel Message: Glad to hear your response.I still think GMJ is one of the best teachers I have ever met.I tried to reason with the people here but discovered they are embittered about all spiritual things not just GMJ.It is bad feedback to whine about how negative they feel but they keep doing it.I enjoy the study of comparative religion and find it fascinating. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 08, 1998 at 06:08:13 (EDT)
From: Mirabai Email: None To: Everyone Subject: 'Maharaji's god',news to me!! Message: *I am new to this forum and have started to read some of the many messages that have been put in here. I am very surprised by the comments regarding Maharaji considering himself to be god. I've been involved with M for 13 years and I have never once had this impression. I am not your average non questioning devotee type. I have always considered myself to be a free person in that sense. I have always been open to questioning 'the master', whoever that master is. I have had eyes for other teachers as well and have not felt the need to be one eyed. I have practiced knowledge almost every day for 13 years and am happy to continue to do so. I realize that there are those of you that feel you have gained nothing from Knowledge. But true knowledge is such a subtle thing and we as human beings are very attached to the grosse side of life and this includes our concrete desire to grasp truth and joy in ways that are unealistic. Life is a most difficult path to tread when it comes to following the inner self. People who have actually lost heart and the knowledge that there really is an inner depth and a source of divinity have lost something very precious. I have a question for those people who speak out against Maharaji; have they lost the inner connection, the realization that there is something worth digging for within? |
Date: Wed, Apr 08, 1998 at 08:18:46 (EDT)
From: Bruce Email: phoenix@b024.aone.net.au To: Mirabai Subject: 'Maharaji's god',news to me!! Message: Hi Mirabai, Well said! I've been around Maharaji for around 25 years now, and I can honestly say that I've never heard him say that he was god. Definitely,he said that he could help people discover the experience of god within themselves. He still does, though uses the word 'god' less often. Not because it isn't god but because putting an intellectual tag on it does not help the experience, and tends to create unnecessary problems. This simple point seems to have been missed or forgotten by critics of M. on this site. Bruce Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 08, 1998 at 08:43:14 (EDT)
From: Scott Email: None To: Bruce Subject: 'Maharaji's god',news to me!! Message: Bruce: Make up your mind. Are facts imortant or not? On one hand you denegrate their importance, ascribing any 'evidence' as rumor--on the other you claim not to have 'heard' Maharaji proclaim himself as God. You must have had your thumbs in your ears. It's true, he never walked out on stage, sat down, and uttered the single phrase 'I am God!' stood back up and walked off again. I don't even think Caligula ever did anything like that. Oh, never mind... I'm just wasting time, and electrons... -Scott Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 08, 1998 at 09:19:54 (EDT)
From: Mr Ex Email: None To: Bruce Subject: 'M's god', he's always been! Message: Sorry, but I've to repost my favorite one again: Excerpt from M’s discourse at Shri Sant Yogashram, New Delhi, India **************** |
Date: Wed, Apr 08, 1998 at 09:42:21 (EDT)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Mr Ex Subject: Mr Ex Message: Dear Mr. Ex, Thank you for your post. We all know, even the premies, that he said he was god. I just didn't get into it when I was involved. I just want to thank you for your informative posts and also for your posts on your evolution out of the cult after so long. I know I got into a bit of defending you with some premie, CD and maybe Bruce and know you can defend yourself but sometimes it is hard to read about the ways they distort writings by ex-premies. Robyn Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 08, 1998 at 18:45:36 (EDT)
From: Mr Ex Email: None To: Robyn: thanks Subject: Mr Ex Message: Thanks Robyn for your support! I'm really having fun here, I really need it from time to time. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 08, 1998 at 11:07:01 (EDT)
From: Bruce Email: phoenix@b024.aone. net. au To: Mr Ex Subject: 'M's god', he's always been! Message: Mr EX, I stick to my statement < M. has never said that he is god.> Find me a quote where he says this in English, in a Western country. Saying < Guru Maharaji is Hari in human form> translates the same , but is interpreted quite differently within the Indian culture, and perhaps more to the point, will not make headlines, resulting in all kinds of wackoes coming out after his blood, and they haven't heard of George Burns in India either. M. is not stupid. Let me simply say that I, and thousands of other people, have an inner perception which makes all this clear. How many millions of people have believed that Jesus was god incarnate for example? How many recognised this when he was alive? Don't be so dumb Mr EX. No wonder that M. got rid of most of his so called instructors Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 08, 1998 at 12:09:28 (EDT)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Jim, Mr Ex Subject: get out the hoops! Message: Jim, Mr Ex and who ever else is into jumping through these hoops, John K. get yourself into the center ring. Bruce, the M circus master of ceremonies is about to begin. God! It is so hard to believe these premies, you give them what they ask for and then the say, oh but wait I think I need this to. It just never stops. I'd like to get a Jahova's Witness on here to go at it with a premie or 2. That would be a battle to the death, do you see what all this is doing to me, now I'm thirsty for blood! Robyn Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 08, 1998 at 12:18:09 (EDT)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Bruce Subject: Guru, the Christ Message: Let me simply say that I, and thousands of other people, have an inner perception which makes all this clear. What you have is a programmed perception that won't change no matter what evidence is presented to refute it. How many millions of people have believed that Jesus was god incarnate for example? As far as I know this is considered a heresy, even within heretical Christianity which includes the Gnostics. David may be able to shed further light on this. How many recognised this when he was alive? As far as I know not even his closest disciples saw him as 'God incarnate.' There is, however, the business of 'the Word made flesh' in John's gospel, written toward the end of the first century for a gentile audience. The conventional interpretation of this is that Jesus reflects, for human consumption, the qualities of the Word. But the full character of Jesus the Christ was not fulfilled until his ascension. I agree that there is a lot of tip-toeing around this distinction. However, Jesus (at least according to the accounts we have) never denied being the Son of God for the sake of convenience, or to appeal to different audiences. Furthermore, this status was only confirmed with the resurrection. If Maharaji dies and comes back I may have to change my assessment of his divine status. Oh, but I forgot, you are saying that he doesn't have that status, except in India of course. A lot of people in India, by the way, regard him as a 'thug' or false guru. I wonder why? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 08, 1998 at 16:04:40 (EDT)
From: Mili Email: cheerful.com To: Scott T. Subject: Guru, the Christ Message: Let me simply say that I, and thousands of other people, have an inner perception which makes all this clear. Make that a thousands and one, me included! How many millions of people have believed that Jesus was god incarnate for example? Milions in the past, and millions will in the future. The problem is, they don't know what 'god' means. For them it's just hypothetical. How many recognised this when he was alive? Too few, apparently. A lot of people in India, by the way, regard Maharaji as a sat (true) guru. The video from the birthday celebration in Delhi (1989) shows a crowd of at least 250,000 people having the greatest time of their lives with their own Maharaji. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 08, 1998 at 16:14:47 (EDT)
From: JW Email: None To: Mili Subject: Guru, the Christ Message: As I'm sure you know, Mili. A lot of those premies in India have more than ONE guru. It is quite common for people to follow the teachings, and go to festivals for, more than one guru. So, I wouldn't be sure that all the 250,000 see M as the 'sat' guru. And why limit it to India? I'll bet a good 10,000 premies in the West view Maharaji as the satguru as well. At least I would bet those that are still following him from the 70s believe that. Why else would they kiss his feet? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 08, 1998 at 18:50:53 (EDT)
From: Mr Ex Email: None To: JW Subject: Go kiss his feet Message: Why don't you go there, like 2,000 other westerners twice a year to kiss his feet? He's in India for a 3 days festival: 100,000 Indians will kiss his feet 2,000 westerners too (15 to 20% of his present followers) Save some money for the next time! Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 08, 1998 at 13:09:34 (EDT)
From: Mr Ex Email: None To: Bruce Subject: 'M's god', he's always been! Message: Do you really think Mr Rawat is a different person whilst in India? What about his 'teaching'? Different in India? Must be some of his divine power I still don't understand! That's why I've been fired ... and most of other ex-instructors! I don't have any problem with this. I'm an idiot. Having believed he was God. I have no shame to admit this. You do are ashamed, like most of my premie friends I still have. That's the real pity: being ashamed to tell what you know and what you feel 'in your heart'. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 08, 1998 at 20:07:20 (EDT)
From: VP Email: None To: Mr Ex Subject: 'M's god', he's always been! Message: Mr. Ex, I think you have hit upon a very interesting point. I agree that some of the premies I know are ashamed of what they do and are very secretive about their activities. I find this very different from the message in the 70's when it was very open. Then again, the premies still weren't very honest about certain things. There is shame and dishonesty and that makes me question them. VP Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 08, 1998 at 14:00:36 (EDT)
From: Still Crazy Email: None To: Bruce Subject: 'M's god', he's always been! Message: Find me a quote where he says this in English, in a Western country. How about these lines from Arti, which I sang to him many times: ``Our Lord is the maker of all things created, He keeps them and brings them all home His Word. Our Lord's *the Superior Power in person*, I bow down before such a wonderful Lord.'' This was not something I made up on my own -- rather it was something *he* gave to me to sing to *him*. That makes them his words, in my book. -Still Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 08, 1998 at 14:36:47 (EDT)
From: JW Email: None To: Still Crazy Subject: 'M's god', he's always been! Message: Thanks for quoting that, you got it more complete that I did down below. By the way, those lines were NOT in the original Arti. They were ADDED to Arti to replace the Hindi words in the introduction by Maharaji himself, I think in 1975 or 1976. I distinctly recall when, in our community, we received the telephone call from IHQ giving us the words, and it was expicitly stated that the words were written and approved by Maharaji himself. Now, he didn't say he was 'god' but the 'superior power in person' and 'lord' say basically the same thing. By the way, we were all very blissed out to get these beautiful words directly from Guru Maharaj Ji. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 08, 1998 at 15:08:48 (EDT)
From: Still Crazy Email: None To: JW Subject: 'M's god', he's always been! Message: They are a loose translation of the old Hindi 'prayer' Guru Brahma Guru Vishnu Guru Devo Maheshwara Guru Sakshat Param Brahma Tasmai Sri Guru Vai Namah! [This prayer also appears as the last lines of 'My Sweet Lord' by George Harrison.] which were sung after Arti before M 'provided' the translation. My translation of this is: Guru is the Creator, Guru is the Preserver, Guru is the Destroyer, the Supreme Ruler of the Universe. Guru is in physical form the Supreme Unmanifested Energy which upholds and gives rise to the Universe. I bow down before the radiant glory of the Guru. There was also another 'translation' that came down at the same time: Meditation begins in the form of our master, Adoration begins at the feet of our Lord. Concentration begins in the words of our master, Liberation begins in the grace of our lord. Which is an almost literal translation of: Dhyana mulam Guru murti, puja mulam Guru paduka Mantra mulam Guru vakyam, Moksha mulam Guru kripa which was sung as an introduction to Arti. Pedantically, Still Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 08, 1998 at 21:51:05 (EDT)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: JW Subject: 'M's god', he's always been! Message: SC: I used to know a golden retriever named 'Aspen' that I considered a superior power, being, whatever. They are damn good pups. -Scott Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 09, 1998 at 00:29:09 (EDT)
From: CD Email: None To: JW Subject: 'M's god', he's always been! Message: >By the way, we were all very blissed out to get these beautiful words directly from Guru Maharaj Ji. Singing the Arti song had the potential to deliver a nice peaceful feeling. Somebody played a nice melodic classical guitar version at Long Beach. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 09, 1998 at 12:23:29 (EDT)
From: Joy Email: Bluebirdd@aol.com To: CD Subject: 'M's god', he's always been! Message: Gosh, CD, do you hear what you're saying? What is it these days, devotion Lite or something? LOOK at the words to this! I can't believe he's still sitting up there and encouraging people to sing this to him, even if it is just the guitar melody. Just goes to show nothing's really changed, just been a bit sugar-coated. The whole idea makes me feel sick to my stomach. Can't you get your nice peaceful feeling out in nature or something a little more benign? To each his own, I guess, but the thought of everyone standing there adoring him while the melody to arti is played gives me the willies, it just seems so sinister. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 09, 1998 at 18:16:38 (EDT)
From: CD Email: None To: Joy Subject: Peace from a Marshall Message: >Gosh, CD, do you hear what you're saying? >Can't you get your nice peaceful feeling out in nature or something a little more benign? Can't you realize that many people do just fine with M and what he has to offer? I have been around and seen the same stuff you are promoting for over 25 years now. Your doubts and negative perspective are nothing new. I happen to see the whole issue differently than you do. By the way, I can get a pretty good feeling cranking up my Les Paul and Marshall. I am looking forward to enjoying the Miami, Wembley and Ahaheim events in 1998. The atmosphere should be as benign as I need. Yes, I do enjoy beautiful sunsets on the Pacific 3 blocks from where I live! There is an abundance of beauty in this gift! Best wishes, CD swam the Ganges in 72 www.cdickey.com Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 08, 1998 at 16:11:14 (EDT)
From: Mili Email: mili@cheerful.com To: Mr Ex Subject: Hari Message: Sorry, but I've to repost my favorite one again: Excerpt from M’s discourse at Shri Sant Yogashram, New Delhi, India **************** |
Date: Wed, Apr 08, 1998 at 12:38:37 (EDT)
From: Salah Email: None To: Bruce, Mirabai Subject: 'Maharaji's god not news to me Message: I am really surprised that both of you claim that M did not ascribe divinity to himself. Let me give you some of his quotes: 'Guru is Greater than God because he can reveal God' Here he claims he is greater than God and that God is mere energy within us that can be revealed. 'I have come with greater power then ever before' Here in Hans Jayanti he claims that he has come with greater power then any previous incarnation including Buddha, Jesus etc. If I really do my research I can come with 100s of quotes where he states that he is either the Perfect Master or a divine incarnation. Have you ever seen him dressed in his Krishna costume playing lila with his devotees. Come on , I am really surprised. I belivee the knowledge is very beneficial but what drove me away from it is precisely that: M ascribing divinity to himself. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 08, 1998 at 23:48:12 (EDT)
From: Mirabai Email: None To: Salah Subject: 'Maharaji's god not news to me Message: There are a lot of messages and it's not easy to respond to all of them at once...but I'd just like to say a few things any way...I am very open to being critical and honest about Maharaji,althouth I realize that my perceptions of M are somewhat limited because I have no personal contact with him. There are so many ways of viewing the whole situation. It would seem that there have been things said and done by M over 13 years ago which I cannot comment about, as I was not around. I have imagined myself in Ms' position regarding realization and inner attainment and I realize that on a grander scale I would still have my challenges to face...I don't expect him to be perfect and I am looking at the possibbility of M having major flaws even though I feel that ultimately his heart is definitely in the right place. I have not achieved a completely clear overall picture yet as I have recently discovered this site and it is challenging me in ways that I had not been previously been challenged. Fortunately I have always had other teachers whom I have truly valued and loved...In this I am very grateful...This is one of the things I am looking at ...at the moment...The feeling that perhaps M has expected people to be one eyed too much and not encouraging people to seek wisdom and 'knowledge' from wherever they find it... Looling at Ms' flaws and positive qualities does not personally threaten me very much,because I have my own inner experience of the divine and other peoples imperfections are not going to effect me very deeply. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 09, 1998 at 13:05:36 (EDT)
From: JW Email: None To: Mirabai Subject: 'Maharaji's god not news to me Message: If you have had so little contact with M and therefore you can't comment on his flaws, then, with so little contact, how on earth can to tell that 'his heart is in the right place?' You see, Mirabai, very FEW, in fact hardly any, premies have EVER had direct contact with Maharaji. Do you think that is some kind of coincidence? No. Maharaji intentionally only interacts with the vast majority of his devotees in the most controlled of circumstances -- circumstances the HE controls. That's why you have likely only seen him in videos, or in person at staged programs. Even if he does a question and answer program, he only gets the most 'soft ball' questions you could imagine. As you likely have gathered, he avoids the press/reporters like the plague, doesn't give interviews, and doesn't even want premies, let alone HIM, participating on the internet. So, since you likely have never even MET Maharaji, you, like me, probably have no real idea WHO it is you are devoting to or following. And many people who have been AROUND Maharaji in those day-to-day settings have rejected him because they have seen who he REALLY is, and not just how he appears up on a big stage at programs. And I would be very concerned that Maharaji so publicly claimed to be god in the past, but maybe doesn't say it anymore. Do you think he still believes it? Do YOU believe it? Did he used to be god, but isn't, anymore? Does he still believe he IS god, but doesn't say it anymore for public relations reasons? And if he ISN'T god, or doesn't claim to be, why did he just do a program in Australia, at which he had thousands line up to kiss his feet? What was THAT about, if he doesn't think he's divine? Come on Mirabai, THINK for yourself, actions speak louder than words! Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 09, 1998 at 14:15:40 (EDT)
From: Still Crazy Email: None To: JW Subject: 'Maharaji's god not news to me Message: One of the biggest factors in my decision to stop following M was the realization that I was in love with a character he had created on stage, heavily fuelled by my own desires and imagination, and not anything genuinely substantial. I realized that I don't know the answer to the question, 'Who Is Guru Maharaj Ji' at all. -Still Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 09, 1998 at 16:11:37 (EDT)
From: JW Email: None To: Still Crazy Subject: 'Maharaji's god not news to me Message: Still: I can relate completely. I really think that realization was one of the hardest things for me, especially because I had held on to the so-called 'love relationship' I thought I had with M for such a long time. Frankly, I often didn't even really like the character Maharaji was onstage. I was more in love with some fantasy of the way I WANTED Maharaji to be for me, and I glomed on to the 'high' I would get from programs and attribute that to him too, although that was coming from the group and not from him. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 09, 1998 at 20:32:40 (EDT)
From: Mirabai Email: None To: JW Subject: To JW Message: To JW..I have seen many videos over the years and I have seen him about 10 times. I have had to make judgements based on what I have personally seen..I have had to speculate and wonder about a lot of other things and at the end of the day...I admit that I do not know M personally and up close and I realize that people are always going to interpret his words and actions in a biased way....I'm referring to the few that do get closer than me. I understand from my own point of view that there are very few truly clear and enlightened people to trust regarding peoples understanding of who M really is. So far I have not heard a convincing argument that says that M is simply not to be trusted full stop. I was in that darshan line and who said that the line was created so we could kiss his feet..Personally I valued the opportunity to see him up close and to look into his eyes without any silly romantic projections that one might have....Like I said,,people put all sorts of interpretations on what M does and the way that He says things...All boxes ....If one doesn't know the fact then one should stick with that and not try to put things in boxes.... With all of the videos that I have seen and my impersonal contacts with M...I have experienced something which just inspires me to look within....I have come to my own sense of trusting M based on this....But what it is I am trusting in is based on trusting myself....He touches me because he is a mirror of myself.....The divine within me.....I touch that in me...That's what I trust the most...He just reflects what I already know for myself I have felt aggrieved at the lack of opportunity for people to express themselves and the abscence of open forums between him and others....This is something that I question and think about...As I've mentioned in other posts I am willing to be critical but once again at the end of the day his positives outweigh his negatives. M claiming to be god really is news to me. God is within us all. M identified with god too much back then perhaps..We are all god within. I cannot really comment about back then,but peope need to feel their anger and bitterness or whatever and realize that things have been so simple for the past 13 years or so. By the way M is divine and so are we. Mirabai Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 08, 1998 at 13:20:24 (EDT)
From: JW Email: None To: Bruce Subject: Revisionism to the Nth Degree Message: I don't know of a direct quote in which Maharaji said 'I am god.' However, he DID say he was 'guru' and that guru is 'greater than god.' Moreover, when asked directly whether or not he was god, since his followers were saying he was, he NEVER denied it. He said something like: 'I don't say that they do.' I personally attended a festival in which Maharaji sat on a stage under a banner that said 'Lord of the Universe.' He directly, on many occasions, referred to himself as 'the perfect master.' He also allowed, without comment, songs to be sung to him that spoke of his divinity, compared himself to Jesus, Buddha, Krishna and Mohammad, whom many people believe to be the incarnation of god, the son of god, or something close to it. And as Jim quotes him above, he also spoke in terms that come very close to directly saying he is god. He personally approved of a new introductory section to Arti in 1975, in which he is referred to as 'the superior power in person' and as 'Lord.' Moreover, his devotees often referred to him as god and he lifted not one chubby finger to dispell those beliefs. So for you to say Maharaji never claimed to be god, since you say you've followed him for 20 years, is the height of disingenuousness. It's hard to get away with lying, around here, Bruce. A bunch of us have been around Maharaji for a long time. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 08, 1998 at 15:11:04 (EDT)
From: Bruce Email: None To: all Subject: Enough! Maharaji is god! Message: Gotta hand it to you guys, you proved beyond doubt that M. has and ocasionally still does claim to be god.! Isn't it wonderful! What if it was and still is true? I still stand stand by my original statements. I'm sure Scotty will have a nice ,well researched explanation for my problem. Thank you Jim, and Mili for those great quotes from M. They should always be in bold, don't you think? I can still see and hear M, giving those answers. Didn't seem at all embarrassed to me. I feel GREAT! Its way,way. past my bedtime.Good morning. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 08, 1998 at 15:25:12 (EDT)
From: Mili Email: mili@cheerful.com To: Bruce Subject: Another cool quote for you Message: Q: Maharaji, what is this Knowledge that you are talking about? A: It is the Knowledge that Christ gave, that Krishna gave, that Ram gave, that Mohammed gave, and which I am giving. It is the supreme Knowledge. It is the sacred Knowledge. It is top sacred! And it dwells within every human being, but we are unable to know it without the help of a true Master. That is what I am teaching. - September 1971, Toronto Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 08, 1998 at 15:49:25 (EDT)
From: Salah Email: None To: Mili Subject: M Got his facts wrong Message: I am really sorry but M has just GOT HIS FACTS WRONG..... Christ did not give this knowledge...There is no where in the Bible which talks about Christ giving Knowledge... Muhammed did NOT give this knowledge...he taught people to pray to the one God...No Idol worship, No Divinity stuff...Nothing... just plain old boring praying 5 times aday... I cant really speak for the other two.. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 08, 1998 at 22:13:09 (EDT)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Salah Subject: M Got his facts wrong Message: Salah: I'm not prepared to scrounge up the passages, but it appears to be a matter of how you interpret them. The woman at the well-nectar, etc. In Acts just about everything was going on. I am prepared to believe that Jesus, Mohammed, and the others DID reveal Knowledge. Guru Nanak certainly did. Some scriptures are clearer than others, and in some ways the descriptions are clearer in certain passages of the Old Testament. I'm also prepared to believe that they did not reveal it. Full spectrum speculation, or as I've come to think of it thanks to Jim: full spec spec, as opposed to spec spec spec (special spectrum speculation). The concept that they did reveal K is not inconsistent with my Maharajia Apologia, which has now slipped below the fold. For K to be 'holy' it does not have to be revealed by holy men... It is fundamental to the human condition, whether a product of design or evolution. -Scott Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 08, 1998 at 15:26:08 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Bruce Subject: Enough! Maharaji is god! Message: Bruce, We lose credibility even as we gain it. (That's me spouting paradox and I'm not even realized!) You obviously have a lot of explaining to do, specifically with respect to your earnest complaint that Maharaji never said he was God. Do you even know this guy, Bruce? Really? How well? I don't think it's sleep you need, bruce. Jim Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 09, 1998 at 00:12:21 (EDT)
From: Mirabai Email: None To: JW Subject: Revisionism to the Nth Degree Message: Over the years,whenever I heard Maharaji say things that made me cringe...........suggestions and implications that he is the only one here at the moment have disturbed me.........I've felt at these times he lacked a deeper humility and as I've said on previous texts I am aiming to look at the whole human being with warts and all. I've no desire to see him through rose coloured spectacles....But in his words and his actions so far I cannot flaw him in an ultimate way....But there will always be much to criticize in a manifestation sense....There are bound to be major mistakes in the way he comes across as he is only human..........I'm willing to look at some of the major flaws that may be there........ Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 09, 1998 at 12:29:27 (EDT)
From: Joy Email: Bluebirdd@aol.com To: Mirabai Subject: Revisionism to the Nth Degree Message: Mirabai, what about this flaw: If he IS ONLY HUMAN, as you state, What about him sitting up on a throne and letting people file before him, dropping off a donation first, and kiss his feet? Or sitting up on a chair before thousands while the words of Arti are sung to him? (See an earlier thread for some of the words to Arti = 'You are my mother, you are my father, you are my all, my Lord, to me'.) Is that something an ordinary human is supposed to do? You say he lacks humility, nothing could be more truly said about Maharaji. He is the ultimate egotist. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 09, 1998 at 21:24:49 (EDT)
From: Mirabai Email: None To: Joy Subject: Revisionism to the Nth Degree Message: To Joy I never said that Maharaji was an ordinary human being...In my perception he has realized that god is within him more powefully than most of us.As for dropping donations,what are you referring to?...Money has never been an issue in my experience. Maybe once or twice in 13 years I can remember the issue being brought up in the hall or whatever,but it was only mentioned if people wanted to donate money if they wanted to and this was without any pressure whatsoever...People really do have their own way of seeing things it would seem.....Have you not touched that part in yourself that is truly god? Is that something to be egoic about? Humility.....people can have such limited ideas on how humility should express itself. We are not all black or white,neither is maharaji. There is a beauty to be devoted to a human being who personifies the god within....God is within me,I know this, so I do not project this onto M in an unrealistic way...People love to sing from their heart to M. Is M on a massive ego trip because of this?Look at all the negatives by all means but let's be honest here and not be clouded by our own need to project our nonsense onto M or onto anyone else...As human beings are so prone to do...I come upon it all the time when I go to chat rooms...people everywhere have limited definitions for what equals what. Mirabai Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 09, 1998 at 12:54:33 (EDT)
From: JW Email: None To: Mirabai Subject: Revisionism to the Nth Degree Message: Mirabai, I think your professed openness is admirable, but your statement that 'in his words and his actions so far [you] cannot flaw him in an ultimate way' and that the criticism is only in a 'manifestation sense' sounds to me suspiciously like a mechanism, that I have seen many other premies use, to confuse the issue, such that you cannot come to an objective conclusion about M, because it is just too threatening and confronting to do so. Yes, Mirabai, it does take some courage to see the truth and admit that one may have been duped. But you won't be criticized for that around this forum. All of us have been duped too. That's why we post here and talk about it. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 09, 1998 at 21:01:19 (EDT)
From: Mirabai Email: None To: JW Subject: Revisionism to the Nth Degree Message: To JW...duped about and regarding what....It seems it has a lot to do with ones attitude towards Maharaji in the first place...Did you go to him expecting no faults like so many...Did you only have eyes for him?..like so many 'premies'...I am not a premie or any other thing. I've not been duped and neither did I dupe myself. The inner experience is inside of me and M has helped me,shown me a way to access when I want to...I have enjoyed his talks and been very inspired by him...But really what is one to be duped about...He never claimed to be perfect. Even though there is a hype around him that suggests that he should be and that he is. People can't stand to see the great teachers with their faults....They either have to be perfect or their out. Why should I be threatened? In what way should I feel this?I know the divine is within me and I don't feel dependent on M...I feel fortunate that I have admired many teachers in my life and I am not the blind devotee type of person. I look at M now and see that he is encouraging people to focus on him and I am looking at this and seeing that this itself is open to interpretation.I'm wondering about certain issues as I have always done... Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 09, 1998 at 21:33:29 (EDT)
From: Anon Email: None To: Mirabai Subject: Revisionism to the Nth Degree Message: I know the divine is within me and I don't feel dependent on M.. Well that is not what M considers the best course of action. If you listen closely to M you will surely see that he is encouraging you to become more dependant on him. Hey! Just look at the example of all his close followers. They will happily confess their dependancy for sure! They are the prime example of what happens to people who submit to Maharaji's influence. You might have so far resisted the call to see him as the orchestrator of your souls journey towards the Divine, but who knows? There is a powerful narcotic effect in the atmosphere around him and his premies which may defeat even your independent spirit. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 08, 1998 at 13:00:14 (EDT)
From: Joy Email: Bluebirdd@aol.com To: Mirabai Subject: 'Maharaji's god',news to me!! Message: Mirabai, you ask: 'I have a question for those people who speak out against Maharaji; have they lost the inner connection, the realization that there is something worth digging for within?' No, absolutely not. Many of us here on this site have spiritual practices and beliefs which are very fulfilling and have nothing to do with Maharaji or Knowledge, which we have found to be vacuous and misleading. We have people here who lived in ashrams up to ten years (like myself) and were considered 'model devotees', as well as every manner of householder, people who've been involved for 25 years, and even some very long-term ex-initiator/instructors. We've all been through it, and decided that the 'inner connection' Maharaji has to offer is not worth the price you have to ultimately pay, and that spiritual fulfillment is best found elsewhere. It is typical of premies to assume that they are the only ones having a spiritual experience or connection to something, and everyone else is out in the dark. There's so much more to life than this, premies, look around and get a clue. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 08, 1998 at 23:58:44 (EDT)
From: Mirabai Email: None To: Joy Subject: 'Maharaji's god',news to me!! Message: I didn't ask the question for the reason that you imagined.I don't just have eyes for Maharaji,perhaps my message jus before this one expresses a bit more clearly...I'd still like to read a lot of what people say and respond as well.Inner truth,divinity or whatever we like to call it is not dependent on having a particular teacher I agree...I 'm generally interested to follow up the subject of why so many people have turned off M.This forum is my first opportunity to hear and express my feelings on the subject. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 09, 1998 at 00:58:24 (EDT)
From: Joy Email: Bluebirdd@aol.com To: Mirabai Subject: 'Maharaji's god',news to me!! Message: Sorry, Mirabai, didn't mean to be rude. I just lose patience a bit with the premie attitude that truth is only to be found thru Maharaji and Knowledge. But I guess premies can't be blamed for that since it's what Maharaji harps upon endlessly. But in my (our) experience, it just isn't so. There are actually a few ex-premies who post here who still practice the meditation techniques because they feel some benefit from them (but not many!), but without having the devotion thing which Maharaji seems to demand as part of the package. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 09, 1998 at 21:38:11 (EDT)
From: Mirabai Email: None To: Joy Subject: that's ok Joy Message: To Joy,that's ok...I would have a few words to share with premies myself.I would disagree with many one eyed premies for sure. I question Maharajis emphasis on himself as a focus and I have different ideas on the subject. It can be very helpful to be focus on the teacher as a way of being devoted to the inner experience....I enjoy reading other teachers writings as it is a beautiful experience...Likewise I also enjoy listening to M....I am critical sometimes for sure. The most poweful message that I do get though, is to go within myself,focusing on him is just a doorway to me......seems to be his message. Mirabai |