Ex-Premie.Org

Forum III Archive # 1

From: Apr 4, 1998

To: Apr 11, 1998

Page: 4 Of: 5



Bruce -:- Kanguru etc -:- Sun, Apr 05, 1998 at 11:17:29 (EDT)
__Jim -:- Kanguru etc -:- Sun, Apr 05, 1998 at 12:38:43 (EDT)
__VP -:- To Bruce: West vs. East -:- Sun, Apr 05, 1998 at 13:09:34 (EDT)
____Bruce -:- To Bruce: West vs. East -:- Mon, Apr 06, 1998 at 00:39:54 (EDT)
______David -:- Some master! -:- Mon, Apr 06, 1998 at 07:19:59 (EDT)
________Bruce -:- Some master! -:- Mon, Apr 06, 1998 at 13:12:42 (EDT)
__________David -:- Some master! -:- Mon, Apr 06, 1998 at 13:54:58 (EDT)
____________Bruce -:- Some master! -:- Tues, Apr 07, 1998 at 08:00:40 (EDT)
__________karate kid -:- Some faker! -:- Mon, Apr 06, 1998 at 23:24:25 (EDT)
________Scott T. -:- Just a thought -:- Mon, Apr 06, 1998 at 13:49:57 (EDT)
__________David -:- Just a thought -:- Mon, Apr 06, 1998 at 14:12:58 (EDT)
__________NV -:- Just a thought -:- Mon, Apr 06, 1998 at 15:11:31 (EDT)
____________Jim -:- And a few more thoughts -:- Mon, Apr 06, 1998 at 16:25:17 (EDT)
____________Scott T. -:- Just a thought -:- Mon, Apr 06, 1998 at 17:05:37 (EDT)
______________bill -:- Just a thought -:- Mon, Apr 06, 1998 at 21:20:42 (EDT)
______________NV -:- Just a thought -:- Mon, Apr 06, 1998 at 21:52:30 (EDT)
________________NV -:- Just a thought -:- Mon, Apr 06, 1998 at 21:56:57 (EDT)
__________________nv -:- Just a thought -:- Mon, Apr 06, 1998 at 21:58:40 (EDT)
____________________TV -:- not one thought! -:- Mon, Apr 06, 1998 at 22:44:14 (EDT)
______________________NV -:- not one thought! -:- Mon, Apr 06, 1998 at 23:03:59 (EDT)
________________________bill -:- more than one thought! -:- Tues, Apr 07, 1998 at 00:01:48 (EDT)
__________________________Robyn -:- more than one thought! -:- Tues, Apr 07, 1998 at 09:38:50 (EDT)
________________________Robyn -:- not one thought! -:- Tues, Apr 07, 1998 at 08:53:08 (EDT)
__________________________NV -:- not one thought! -:- Tues, Apr 07, 1998 at 20:45:42 (EDT)
____________________________Jim -:- NV's losing it too -:- Tues, Apr 07, 1998 at 21:18:55 (EDT)
______________________________NV -:- NV's losing it too -:- Tues, Apr 07, 1998 at 21:52:57 (EDT)
______________________TV -:- so said rawat. -:- Mon, Apr 06, 1998 at 23:04:47 (EDT)
________________________NV -:- so said rawat. -:- Mon, Apr 06, 1998 at 23:25:46 (EDT)
__________________________TV -:- dogma days of summer -:- Tues, Apr 07, 1998 at 00:17:11 (EDT)
________________Scott T. -:- Stop being silly -:- Mon, Apr 06, 1998 at 23:26:47 (EDT)
__________________NV -:- Stop being silly -:- Mon, Apr 06, 1998 at 23:49:37 (EDT)
____________________JW -:- Stop being silly -:- Tues, Apr 07, 1998 at 00:30:05 (EDT)
______________________Zen -:- Stop being silly -:- Tues, Apr 07, 1998 at 21:06:14 (EDT)
____________________Scott T. -:- Stop being fatuous -:- Tues, Apr 07, 1998 at 09:33:21 (EDT)
______________________NV -:- Stop being fatuous -:- Tues, Apr 07, 1998 at 21:40:43 (EDT)
________________________Jim -:- Stop being fatuous -:- Tues, Apr 07, 1998 at 21:51:15 (EDT)
__________________________NV -:- Stop being fatuous -:- Tues, Apr 07, 1998 at 22:00:50 (EDT)
____________________________Jim -:- Stop being fatuous -:- Tues, Apr 07, 1998 at 22:18:57 (EDT)
____________________Robyn -:- Stop being silly -:- Tues, Apr 07, 1998 at 09:50:46 (EDT)
______________________NV -:- Stop being silly -:- Tues, Apr 07, 1998 at 22:07:49 (EDT)
____________JW -:- Just a thought -:- Tues, Apr 07, 1998 at 00:15:04 (EDT)
______________Robyn -:- Just a thought -:- Tues, Apr 07, 1998 at 13:10:15 (EDT)
________________JW -:- Just a thought -:- Tues, Apr 07, 1998 at 17:20:07 (EDT)
________________NV -:- Just a thought -:- Tues, Apr 07, 1998 at 22:10:18 (EDT)
__David -:- Kanguru etc -:- Sun, Apr 05, 1998 at 13:19:10 (EDT)
__JW -:- Kanguru etc -:- Sun, Apr 05, 1998 at 15:21:17 (EDT)
____NV -:- Kanguru etc -:- Mon, Apr 06, 1998 at 15:43:34 (EDT)
______JW -:- Kanguru etc -:- Tues, Apr 07, 1998 at 00:51:33 (EDT)
__Paula -:- Kanguru etc -:- Sun, Apr 05, 1998 at 16:16:16 (EDT)
____Bruce -:- Kanguru etc -:- Mon, Apr 06, 1998 at 10:51:42 (EDT)
______Robyn -:- Kanguru etc -:- Mon, Apr 06, 1998 at 12:18:14 (EDT)
________Bruce -:- Kanguru etc -:- Mon, Apr 06, 1998 at 13:41:40 (EDT)
__________Robyn -:- Kanguru etc -:- Mon, Apr 06, 1998 at 15:36:36 (EDT)
____________Jim -:- Hardliner calling Robyn -:- Mon, Apr 06, 1998 at 15:43:21 (EDT)
______________Robyn -:- Hardliner calling Robyn -:- Mon, Apr 06, 1998 at 18:25:46 (EDT)
____________Bruce -:- Kanguru etc -:- Tues, Apr 07, 1998 at 03:00:49 (EDT)
______________Jim -:- Forgetting something, Bruce? -:- Tues, Apr 07, 1998 at 11:12:33 (EDT)
________________Mr Ex -:- Darshan experience.... -:- Tues, Apr 07, 1998 at 12:54:42 (EDT)
________________P -:- Forgetting something, Bruce? -:- Tues, Apr 07, 1998 at 13:30:30 (EDT)
__________________Jim -:- Forgetting something, Bruce? -:- Tues, Apr 07, 1998 at 13:55:04 (EDT)
____________________P -:- Forgetting something, Bruce? -:- Tues, Apr 07, 1998 at 14:14:50 (EDT)
______________________Jim -:- Forgetting something, Bruce? -:- Tues, Apr 07, 1998 at 14:25:48 (EDT)
________________________P -:- A lesson in lust -:- Tues, Apr 07, 1998 at 23:15:30 (EDT)
__________________Robyn -:- Forgetting something, Bruce? -:- Tues, Apr 07, 1998 at 15:33:09 (EDT)
____________________P -:- Forgetting something, Bruce? -:- Tues, Apr 07, 1998 at 16:53:08 (EDT)
______________________Rick -:- Forgetting something, Bruce? -:- Tues, Apr 07, 1998 at 17:33:10 (EDT)
________________________Jim -:- Rick, I'm not certain of this, -:- Tues, Apr 07, 1998 at 18:14:14 (EDT)
__________________________Katie -:- Rick, I'm not certain of this, -:- Tues, Apr 07, 1998 at 18:21:10 (EDT)
__________________________Rick -:- Rick, I'm not certain of this, -:- Tues, Apr 07, 1998 at 18:58:42 (EDT)
____________________________Jim -:- Rick, I'm not certain of this, -:- Tues, Apr 07, 1998 at 19:29:16 (EDT)
______________________________Rick -:- Rick, I'm not certain of this, -:- Tues, Apr 07, 1998 at 20:05:28 (EDT)
________________________________Jim -:- Rick, I'm not certain of this, -:- Tues, Apr 07, 1998 at 20:19:11 (EDT)
__________________________________Rick -:- Rick, I'm not certain of this, -:- Tues, Apr 07, 1998 at 20:42:11 (EDT)
____________________________________Jim -:- Rick, I'm not certain of this, -:- Tues, Apr 07, 1998 at 21:21:53 (EDT)
______________________________________Rick -:- Rick, I'm not certain of this, -:- Tues, Apr 07, 1998 at 21:26:00 (EDT)
________________________________________Jim -:- Rick, I'm not certain of this, -:- Tues, Apr 07, 1998 at 22:23:54 (EDT)
____________________________________Katie -:- Rick, I'm not certain of this, -:- Tues, Apr 07, 1998 at 23:03:08 (EDT)
______________________________________Rick -:- Rick, I'm not certain of this, -:- Wed, Apr 08, 1998 at 01:20:29 (EDT)
________________________________________Robyn -:- Rick, I'm not certain of this, -:- Wed, Apr 08, 1998 at 09:33:44 (EDT)
__________Jim -:- Kanguru etc -:- Mon, Apr 06, 1998 at 15:39:49 (EDT)
__CD -:- Kanguru etc -:- Sun, Apr 05, 1998 at 16:36:20 (EDT)
____Jim -:- What errors? Bruce? Chris? -:- Sun, Apr 05, 1998 at 17:22:55 (EDT)
______CD -:- What is important? -:- Sun, Apr 05, 1998 at 18:33:33 (EDT)
________Jim -:- What is important? -:- Sun, Apr 05, 1998 at 20:17:07 (EDT)
__________CD -:- What is important? -:- Mon, Apr 06, 1998 at 11:33:00 (EDT)
____________Jim -:- What is important? -:- Mon, Apr 06, 1998 at 11:46:44 (EDT)
______________Mr Ex -:- Asking for the budgets? -:- Mon, Apr 06, 1998 at 12:33:32 (EDT)
________________Jim -:- Asking for the budgets? -:- Mon, Apr 06, 1998 at 13:51:11 (EDT)
____________Robyn -:- What is important? -:- Mon, Apr 06, 1998 at 12:33:08 (EDT)
______________CD -:- What is important? -:- Mon, Apr 06, 1998 at 13:07:48 (EDT)
________________Robyn -:- What is important? -:- Mon, Apr 06, 1998 at 18:47:46 (EDT)
__________________NV -:- What is important? -:- Mon, Apr 06, 1998 at 20:55:12 (EDT)
____________________new vine -:- What is important? -:- Mon, Apr 06, 1998 at 22:14:48 (EDT)
______________________NV -:- What is important? -:- Mon, Apr 06, 1998 at 23:19:29 (EDT)
________________________bill -:- What is important?truth -:- Tues, Apr 07, 1998 at 00:22:37 (EDT)
__________________________NV -:- What is important?truth -:- Tues, Apr 07, 1998 at 22:31:15 (EDT)
________________________Robyn -:- What is important? -:- Tues, Apr 07, 1998 at 09:53:53 (EDT)
__________________________NV -:- What is important? -:- Tues, Apr 07, 1998 at 22:33:38 (EDT)
____________________JW -:- What is important? -:- Tues, Apr 07, 1998 at 01:05:24 (EDT)
__________________CD -:- What is important? -:- Tues, Apr 07, 1998 at 12:59:02 (EDT)
____________________Robyn -:- What is important? -:- Tues, Apr 07, 1998 at 13:21:44 (EDT)
____________________Mr Ex -:- FACTS ARE IMPORTANT! -:- Tues, Apr 07, 1998 at 13:36:04 (EDT)
______________________CD -:- What kind of facts? -:- Tues, Apr 07, 1998 at 16:48:16 (EDT)
________________Jim -:- What is important? -:- Mon, Apr 06, 1998 at 19:11:18 (EDT)
__________________CD -:- This is information? -:- Mon, Apr 06, 1998 at 21:45:57 (EDT)
____________________Jim -:- This is information? -:- Mon, Apr 06, 1998 at 22:16:22 (EDT)
______________________Mirabai -:- This is information? -:- Wed, Apr 08, 1998 at 05:46:08 (EDT)
________________________Scott T. -:- This is a test -:- Wed, Apr 08, 1998 at 08:53:40 (EDT)
________________________Mirabai -:- This is information -:- Wed, Apr 08, 1998 at 10:15:45 (EDT)
______________JW -- Da Mayor -:- What is important? -:- Mon, Apr 06, 1998 at 13:12:10 (EDT)
________________Scott T. -:- What is important? -:- Mon, Apr 06, 1998 at 13:56:10 (EDT)
__________________JW -:- What is important? -:- Mon, Apr 06, 1998 at 17:45:19 (EDT)
______________Bruce -:- What is important? -:- Mon, Apr 06, 1998 at 13:59:31 (EDT)
________________Scott T. -:- What is important? -:- Mon, Apr 06, 1998 at 14:06:45 (EDT)
________________Robyn -:- to Bruce -:- Mon, Apr 06, 1998 at 19:14:15 (EDT)
______Bruce -:- Errors in Kanguru article -:- Tues, Apr 07, 1998 at 20:37:43 (EDT)
________Jim -:- Taking Bruce uptown -:- Tues, Apr 07, 1998 at 20:48:23 (EDT)
__CD -:- Kanguru etc -:- Sun, Apr 05, 1998 at 17:01:22 (EDT)
__Bruce -:- Kanguru etc Email correction -:- Sun, Apr 05, 1998 at 18:08:29 (EDT)
__bill -:- Kanguru etc -:- Sun, Apr 05, 1998 at 18:13:04 (EDT)
____David -:- The father/son God -:- Sun, Apr 05, 1998 at 21:10:43 (EDT)
______Mili -:- The father/son God -:- Mon, Apr 06, 1998 at 00:41:59 (EDT)
________Mirabai -:- The father/son God -:- Wed, Apr 08, 1998 at 05:21:58 (EDT)
______bill -:- deciever -:- Mon, Apr 06, 1998 at 00:51:13 (EDT)
________Jim -:- Great idea, Bill -:- Mon, Apr 06, 1998 at 16:29:45 (EDT)
______chr -:- The father/son God -:- Mon, Apr 06, 1998 at 03:56:38 (EDT)
________satguroovy -:- The father/son God -:- Mon, Apr 06, 1998 at 21:25:34 (EDT)
______Brian -:- The father/son God -:- Mon, Apr 06, 1998 at 08:30:58 (EDT)
________Scott T. -:- The father/son God -:- Mon, Apr 06, 1998 at 08:59:12 (EDT)
____Mili -:- Kanguru etc -:- Mon, Apr 06, 1998 at 02:33:17 (EDT)
______Robyn -:- The complexities of English -:- Mon, Apr 06, 1998 at 12:50:01 (EDT)
______satguru dev MILI ki jai! -:- Kanguru etc -:- Mon, Apr 06, 1998 at 21:39:01 (EDT)
____Robyn -:- Jim Hession-Bill -:- Mon, Apr 06, 1998 at 12:44:07 (EDT)
______bill -:- wowee-zowee -:- Mon, Apr 06, 1998 at 22:05:49 (EDT)

Joy -:- Charles Cameron -:- Sun, Apr 05, 1998 at 03:24:19 (EDT)
__Brian -:- Now, who was this guy again?? -:- Sun, Apr 05, 1998 at 08:22:55 (EDT)
____Katie -:- Now, who was this guy again?? -:- Sun, Apr 05, 1998 at 11:23:19 (EDT)
______Jim -:- Now, who was this guy again?? -:- Sun, Apr 05, 1998 at 14:08:59 (EDT)
__Scott T. -:- Charles Cameron -:- Sun, Apr 05, 1998 at 09:48:14 (EDT)
____Joy -:- Charles Cameron -:- Sun, Apr 05, 1998 at 15:28:53 (EDT)
______CD -:- Charles Cameron -:- Sun, Apr 05, 1998 at 19:19:05 (EDT)
________Mirabai -:- Charles Cameron -:- Wed, Apr 08, 1998 at 10:08:15 (EDT)

judas -:- devotion -:- Sun, Apr 05, 1998 at 01:32:48 (EST)

David -:- Thank you Salah -:- Sat, Apr 04, 1998 at 21:47:46 (EST)


Date: Sun, Apr 05, 1998 at 11:17:29 (EDT)
From: Bruce
Email: phoenix@b024.net.au
To: Everyone
Subject: Kanguru etc
Message:
Hullo!
Just thought I'd throw in a few comments. My name's Bruce, and would you believe it, I'm sending from Australia, where I currently am living. Please, no funny comments about the name. Actually, it isn't such a common name here as rumoured.
I live in a beautiful house overlooking the ocean north of Brisbane. Life is great! Why tell you? I'll go on.
Last year, whilst teaching Marine Biology at a local Christian College, a fellow teacher who had heard of my association with M. dropped a newspaper article gleefully on my desk. It was the 'kanguru' article you have on your web site. I was astonished at how bizaar the article was. So incredibly biased against M.and full to the ceiling with utter bullshit! (this is a common word over here!). There was no resemblance whatsoever between the article and what actually took place! I was there, and was involved in the running of the conference. An incredibly good experience for thousands of people. And who supplied the bullshit for the muckraking 'journalist'? Did he interview anyone who had a great time, including the local townsfolk who were employed to help out? Apparently not. He owes me and many others an apology. But the damage is done. This website was the souce of much of his material, and no doubt fueled his cinicism. Now it displays this same article.
Does this make it more true now??
Perhaps the authors of this web page owe us an apology by default? But the damage is done. Bob Mishler isn't around to retract or make amends. Apparently Bob is to be listened to, but M. is not to be trusted. Funny how there weren't thousands of grieving people at Bob's funeral. On the other hand, there were thousands there to see and listen to M. in Kualur Lumpur just last week. I was there too. An incredibly beautiful experience. Just like it always has been, only somehow even better. Now M. is in India. Several thousand people will receive the techniques of Knowledge. Thousands of people will play that fun game called Holi. M.will wear a doti, and speak about service, satsang and meditation. 'Wierd' in the West, but not in the East. Just like its always been. I was there two years ago.
In fact, over the last twenty five years, I've been fortunate to witness his magic in virtually every country and place that he goes, which is most places on this planet. More importantly, I have experienced his divine presence,in situations ranging from audience member among thousands, to being alone with him in an Australian field.
One glimpse of that presence makes all the arguments about what he said, did,or what he wore, etc,meaningless. Bob apparently never experienced this, despite his physical proximity,otherwise he wouldn't have told that ridiculous story about the crowd phenomenom. Its not a matter of physical closeness. This interesting fact about masters explains a great deal about M. and past masters.
Having said this , I also have experienced the doubt, the criticism which is also there. Eveybody has it.There was a time when I too could have become M's dedicated enemy, 'saving' people from his 'trap'
Negativity seems so logical. But there is no joy in it.
At a time when I was not experiencing K.so much, (a situation necessary for negativity, I suspect), I decided (its a long story) to settle things once and for all. I made a thousand km journey by train (the planes were on strike) to a program in Sydney. Either I would be reinspired, or I would campaign against him as a frawd for 'wasting my time'. Boy, am I glad I made that effort! No amount of discussion would have shown me what his presence did. It reminded me of what I had forgotten. I am damn sure I don't want to forget it again.
Thanks for reading this. I am prepared to answer genuine questions, as I have a lot of experiences to draw from. I have a lot things better to do than sit in front of a computer, but I will answer while there seems to be some value. Remember the time difference also please. I like to sleep at night!
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Date: Sun, Apr 05, 1998 at 12:38:43 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Bruce
Subject: Kanguru etc
Message:
Bruce,

You say the article was 'So incredibly biased against M.and full to the ceiling with utter bullshit!

You're right about the bias. And it certainly has some of the facts a little skewed (Maharaji exploded the 'peace bomb', he didn't blow up himself, Holi happened more than once and, as we know, the cult definitely does not 'boast a web site').

But what other facts do you say are bullshit? Was it just the 'digging holes'?
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Date: Sun, Apr 05, 1998 at 13:09:34 (EDT)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Bruce
Subject: To Bruce: West vs. East
Message:
Hi, Bruce.
I just want to respond to one of the points that you made, and thanks for being so honest about it, too. You said that Maharaji will wear a doti and play holi and talk about satsang, service and meditation in the east, but not in the west because it's not accepted here. Master in the east and meditation instructor here? Don't you think that's a bit hypocritical? I mean, why can't Maharaji just be who he is no matter where he is?

I also don't accept that all westerners aren't hip enough to accept the eastern ways. How about all of the people who signed on in the 70's, lived in the ashrams, etc. and then were completely shocked and hurt by M's change in packaging here? I'll agree that it might be more shocking to the mainstream of westerners to see the Krishna costumes, etc., but how do you think they will feel once they get involved with EV and see the underlying devotional aspect of it anyway? Is this an attempt to deceive? I am asking you sincerely what your opinion of this is. VP (not to be confused with VD:)
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Date: Mon, Apr 06, 1998 at 00:39:54 (EDT)
From: Bruce
Email: phoenix@b024.aone.net.au
To: VP
Subject: To Bruce: West vs. East
Message:
Dear VP,
You seem to have some genuine questions, and I'm happy to respond.
Personally, I don't find contradictions in M's presentations. In India and Nepal, he speaks in Hindi,wears standard garb for
those countries, and speaks in ways which is in keeping with those cultures That is the culture he was born into. In most other countries, he speaks English, the international language.Should he always, (for example) speak Hindi to remain 'true to himself?' That would obviously be rather silly. I hope you get my drift here.
As for Master versus meditation teacher, I don't recall M. ever referring to himself as just a meditation teacher. He makes it very clear that he is a master, and he is inviting people to become his students. There are many videos in which this is a central theme. Also there are many videos in which he explains the need for a master. Nobody these days who is interested in being shown the techniques would miss out on it being made clear that this is all about becoming a student, and that M. is the teacher.
Also ,as part the normal video programs, Western aspirants see videos of M. in Eastern countries.
If people don't like this situation, they don't have to pursue it. To me, the Master-student aspect is a natural and wonderful thing, and I for one never try to portray this as not being that. I don't know anyone who does, but no doubt they exist..
The question of 'being who he is' is an interesting one. Personally, I've never seen anyone even come near being more who he is than M. He has a totally individual personality ,( which can be a shock to some). But more to the point, the Master that he really is, is ever evident. As I said in Kanguru etc, I have been around M. in many public and private
situations, and that perfection that he emanates and which seems to guide him is stunningly obvious.
As for the dissapointed ashramers, well I never actually entered one. The point is, M. is showing people how to have a beautiful, internal experience. Period. The experience is not dependant (thank goodness) on living in an ashram. I think if people like that lifestyle, then they can still do that if they want to, with or without K. Also, while I'm on this what happened back then stuff, M. is not into building a vast empire with a president at the top ie a Bob Mishler. My impression (only) of events back then was that Bob (and others) were very into that, and their noses were really put out to find that in M's vision of things, no such positions of power were forthcoming to them. Hence the sudden turnarounds. Change and destruction is part of growth and creation in life. Growth cannot occur without these things. That there is continual external changes to do with M. is yet another indicator of his authenticity.
I hope that my response is helpful. Regards, Bruce
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Date: Mon, Apr 06, 1998 at 07:19:59 (EDT)
From: David
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: Bruce
Subject: Some master!
Message:
Well Bruce, you still haven't considered our experiences as being equaly valid. Many people here have been in very close proximity to Maharaji for a long time; Mr Ex, Bill Burke to name but two and their version of the master is very different to yours. So are they so blind that they have failed to see what you claim they have?
Putting that aside, I wouldn't consider a master to be that competant if he had gathered together an army of devotees who were willing to give their lives for him (and his cheese) and then consequently LOST all of those devotees. Now who's fault is that? You'll probably say that it is the devotees' fault. But I wouldn't agree. The devotees surrendered their lives to him, they were under his control. They did not want to leave him, they wanted to be guided by his divine authority. Maharaji was quite simply unable to handle this army of devotees and so he let them slip away. And now he tries not to think about it.
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Date: Mon, Apr 06, 1998 at 13:12:42 (EDT)
From: Bruce
Email: None
To: David
Subject: Some master!
Message:
Dear David,
You seem to have forgotten that I said I had other things to do besides sitting in front of a computer.
Because of the time delay in responding to you, somehow you
consider that means I don't consider your experiences as being equal? ?????

And you think M. has problems?!!!!!

As for losing an 'army of devotees', I'd have to question what these 'devotees' were devoted to.
Was it a real inner experience of their own divinity, or was it devotion to some concept of what M. was or should behave,or something else?.
.
If it was the former, then I believe nothing would have changed.

If you were to travel around the world a bit, you would find a much larger 'army' still in place, and growing rapidly.

Still, M. said recently that he needed to give more attention to USA and Europe, so I suspect some of those 'lost' devotees
may become 'found' in the near future. That's if they choose to be , of course. The door is always open. We can walk in. We can walk out.
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Date: Mon, Apr 06, 1998 at 13:54:58 (EDT)
From: David
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: Bruce
Subject: Some master!
Message:
Thanks for responding to my post, Bruce, and not taking any offence at my critisism of Maharaji. It is my belief that Maharaji has to be questioned and the whole trip be put under the severist scrutiny although all too often premies shy away from this or take offence. There's no need, we're all adults here and most of us received the knowledge decades ago.

Your answer that the devotees who left were not devoted to an inner experience, was a good answer. If only life was so simple! Many ex-premies still meditate and have an experience from it but don't want to or feel it correct to follow Maharaji. I fall in the latter catagory. I am all for positive thought and actions. I would like to be part of a team that was spreading the knowledge techniques to interested people. I value the meditation techniques. But in all sincerety, I cannot follow Maharaji because I don't agree with his philosophy and his actions. In a way it's a pity. Because the knowledge techniques are a positive thing. I guess you could call me a sincere non-devotee of Maharaji. My reasons for not following him are many and varied but they are sincere. In one way we are in agreement because we both value the meditation. Try as I can though, I cannot fall in with all the rest of it.

Good morning from England.
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Date: Tues, Apr 07, 1998 at 08:00:40 (EDT)
From: Bruce
Email: None
To: David
Subject: Some master!
Message:
David,

I can't imagine any better team to spread the techniques than the one doing it now. Sure, there has been glitches and things which
could be improved on, especially in the past.

I was involved with one just recently in Kuala Lumpur.

Very smooth. Simple. The feeling was magical.

Cheers,

Bruce
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Date: Mon, Apr 06, 1998 at 23:24:25 (EDT)
From: karate kid
Email: tuyunhmi
To: Bruce
Subject: Some faker!
Message:

this is probabaly prem rawat the karate student that is
calling himself bruce like in bruce lee.
He asked about us former devotees:
'was it a real inner experience of thier own divinity?
Of some concept of what rawat was or his behavior...'

He himself has no real experience of his own divinity.
See how he thinks? He has himself enshrined in this idea
that he is the divine one that is showing us our own divinity
and he is the god incarnate. Like he said before 'the one
that ASSUMED the service of a lifetime'
Assumed means to make an ass out of you and me.

As far as 'Concept of who and what rawat was' well sure
we were. Atri, his endless claims to be the lord, his crown,
the heavy yelling his fool head off at his devoted victims,
the demands that we dedicate our whole lives to him, the
vast series of threats, and his apparent continued delusion
that he is god incarnate. Swell, after all the stuff life
has tried to teach him, he gets a big fat zero on the
mid life crisis grade.

Go march your army of prisoners of 'love'. We are free of you.
Follow your own advice and stay away from the internet.
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Date: Mon, Apr 06, 1998 at 13:49:57 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: David
Subject: Just a thought
Message:
David:

I am beginning to think it's not only unproductive but possibly unethical to get into these kinds of arguments with at least some premies. Bruce has been hanging on for over twenty years, and is now under a 'need to believe' condition. Those who need to believe will find a way to do so. The point is that if there is some independence, or absence of need, there is plenty of evidence to support a move away. Someone who finds M's conflicting behavior, or lapses in morality, completely unproblematic is clearly not ready to consider the situation realistically. Bruce actually thinks he's helping us! The fact that premies have 'meddling preferences' is no reason for us to follow suit. His perspective on Bob Mishler as a megalomaniac, in spite of the fact that all independent evidence points in the opposite direction, is an example of a need to believe. I am not convinced that argument with someone who has such a need is ethically sound. We do not know enough about this person to be able to make the cost/benefit analysis for him. I think Katie, in her own way, has pointed this out.

On the other hand, it is important to mount an opposition that involves logic, sincerity, and facts. I am not sure that Bruce, NV or a number of other current premies present much opportunity to do that. Jim has developed a working strategy to deal, at least to some extent, with their inability to engage the issues. I've begun to lose a taste for it. There are really more important issues that, for me, supersede battling on this level.

-Scott
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Date: Mon, Apr 06, 1998 at 14:12:58 (EDT)
From: David
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: Scott T.
Subject: Just a thought
Message:
I agree with you to some extent and of course I've got other things to do with my time. The need to believe state is an interesting observation. It's not something one can reason with because there is a kind of primeval defence mechanism at work.
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Date: Mon, Apr 06, 1998 at 15:11:31 (EDT)
From: NV
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Just a thought
Message:
Scott

It can be argued that both sides in the debate demonstrate need. If you think that some of the ex's who post, Jim included, don't NEED to try to prove M is a fraud, you are either kidding yourself or fall into that category yourself.

Besides, you cannot make a broad-brushed assumption that just because a person has stayed with M for 20 years it means they cannot make rational arguments anymore. Quite possibility they stayed for 20 years because it did stand up to their own test for validity, which could be argued adds strength to the pro-side. Also, you have no knowledge of the rigour around which a person may have couched their own validity testing. It clearly is not fair therefore to assess a degree of validity inversely proportionate to their length of stay with M.

As for Jim's debate strategy - what is it? I personally approach his questions with caution because he hasn't demonstrated that he can be trusted, in fact it's quite the opposite. Many of the questions he asks are either not answerable by anyone except M, can only be answered by personal opinion (again, in most social settings you have to trust someone to share such things), or are irrelevant to the subject matter. Also you'll note that the rules of ANY debate (e.g., presidential debates) are more hotly contested than the questions themselves. I'd be the last to accept in good faith any rules of engagement put forward by Jim Heller. Sorry.

NV
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Date: Mon, Apr 06, 1998 at 16:25:17 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: NV and Scott
Subject: And a few more thoughts
Message:
NV,

Thanks for the kind words. First, I agree with YOU that my persistent shakeups with premies reflects some sort of compulsion on my part. I'm not sure about the word 'need'. I think it'd be fair to say I sustain more than a passing interest in the subject.

I don't think my desire is to prove M is a fraud, so much, as to force him to deal with the outrageous effect he had on so many people by masquerading as the Lord. That is, I'm already abut as sure as I can imagine being that M's a fraud. That case was made out years ago. I'm just anxious to see him deal with it.

Like the family of Pinochet's victims, perhaps. They can't stand the prospect of him not dealing with the disappearados whom, we can safely say by now, were all killed years ago by the good general. The families don't need to have that last bit of proof that their sons and daughters are dead so much as they 'need' to see Pinochet confronted with his crimes. They just want ot wipe that undeserved smirk of Pinochet's face. That's how I feel.

You say I've demonstrated that I can't be trusted. But let's look at this. You complain that I ask question's that can't be answered or that can only be answered by M. Again, Sherlocke, I agree. But can't you see why I do that? Come on, NV, the answer's obvious.

Okay, I'll tell you. One reason is to get premies to admit that they don't know. They don't know why M called himself the Lord or why he promised to save the world. That's the first clear point of agreement I look forward to in any discussion with a premie: they just don't know.

Why? Because that opens the door to speculation. Of course premies can never seem to engage in 'full spectrum' speculation but get fixated on the rosier colours.

Example:

Let's say a boy gets arrested for possession of stolen property, to wit, one nice Walkman. Without knowing more, three people consider the charge, his mother, his father and his older brother.

Mom, in my example, completely dotes on the boy who, in her books, can do no wrong. Without even hearing from him she offers the cop endless reasons why her boy might be wrongly accused. Maybe he didn't know the stereo was hot, maybe his friend knew and tricked him into holding it. Maybe he didn't know it was in his bag, maybe it was planted there. Maybe this and maybe that. All good speculations. Unfortunately, they're only in the reds.

Dad gets called at work. He, too, doesn't ask any questions. Why bother? He knows his kid's been up to no good. Why, wasn't he that way when he was a kid? As far as dad's concerned, junior's been cruising for some time now. He must have gotten involved with that other kid across the street who's already been arrested several times at least. Or maybe some of those new kids that moved in down the street. So dad's speculating too, down at the other end of the spectrum, in the blues.

When the kid's older brother hears about the arrest, he wonders what the hell happened. Waiting for his parents to come home with his brother, he thinks about the ways his brother could ahve really ripped something off, yet he also considers the way that maybe he's been wronly charged. He just wonders. Specualtion again, but more full spectrum.

Back to M, wouldn't you agree that the premies only behave like mum? That is, once they admit that M did and said stuff that might, at first glance, make him look misguided or deceitful, and that they honestly can't say why he did or said that, they then launch into all this mum-style speculation. Do you know what I'm talking about?

Scott,

I don't think you're right that there's anything unethical about challenging premies. What do you think's ging to happen, they're going to jump off a bridge or something? I've got news for you, they already do from time to time.

No, I appreciate your sentiment that premies can and probably do feel incredible loss if and when they come to terms with who M really is -- and isn't. But the ones who come here come of their own accord. Besides confronting them, the only options are to ignore or patronize them. I can't see either course as being safer ethically.
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Date: Mon, Apr 06, 1998 at 17:05:37 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: NV
Subject: Just a thought
Message:
NV:

It can be argued that both sides in the debate demonstrate need

Fair enough. Different kind of need though.

It clearly is not fair therefore to assess a degree of validity inversely proportionate to their length of stay with M.

Well, I think this is well put. In fact, one's need to believe might in some cases actually diminish with time. Nonetheless I am perplexed by the inability to deal directly with information that appears quite authentic. Like Bruce, I was steeped in the notion that Mishler left because he had been involved in a losing power struggle. However, reading his account at this stage in my own journey gave me some additional points of comparison. He does not sound much like a disgruntled employee. His observations seem based on sound sociology. He is skeptical of the Christiam message for similar reasons (although he reserves judgement for the present case where he has first hand knowledge).

At Amherst I began to hear about Maharji drinking, but even at that time it was not couched in negative terms. We were led to believe that he had been influenced or 'seduced' by these nefarious Mishler-related folks. The accounts I heard were not first hand, but they were definitely second-hand. I was around the residence, as were the people who told me this rather surpising bit of news. The 'seduction' scenario just never made sense, but I never tried to resolve it until much later. In other words, I believe it to some extent because it is triangulated, and it fits with other information about his behavior. His treatment of Jeff Peas for instance.

Finally, the research of David Lane really created a new level of cognitive dissonance in my belief system about MJ. Maharaji was hardly mentioned in this research, which described the traditions involved in and associated with Knowledge (called Shabd Yoga) in great detail. The fact that Shri Hans' mission is such a minor player, not only in Lane's account, but in terms of the numbers of followers in the direct lineage caused me to write Lane a few letters for clarification. Together we came up with the idea of the 'flawed master' outlined in the Apologia above. Maharaji is not on his list of nefarious Gurus. He just is not important. Lane consider's Paul Twitchell a much more sinister figure, who as the EK master (no relation to our Mr. Ex) gave the same techniques which were experienced in the same way, at least according to the account of those who practiced. So, if it is not Knowledge, virtuosity, or virtue that sets Maharaji apart what is it?

My conclusion was not based on 'need' to believe, it was based on 'need' to get straight with the facts. My shift was reluctant and decidedly uncomfortable. That too should be regarded as 'data.' It was based on the need to be realistic, so that my life wasn't following ghosts. As far as I know I only have one.

Do I make sense?

-Scott
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Date: Mon, Apr 06, 1998 at 21:20:42 (EDT)
From: bill
Email: l;asdkfj
To: Scott T.
Subject: Just a thought
Message:
yes Indeedy!
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Date: Mon, Apr 06, 1998 at 21:52:30 (EDT)
From: NV
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Just a thought
Message:
Yes Scott you are finally making sense. I have a few points to make on your post.

Re; Mishler: I have learned that you have to hear both sides of any story before coming to conclusions about it. Mishler gave his account, probably based among other reasons, on a need to try to clear his own name. Maharaji isn't coming to the table to respond to Mishler's claims - that's his choice to make. That does not mean that Mishler's claims are correct. You could make a case that the optics of not addressing Mishler directly causes a negative message to be sent but that is his choice to make, after all there is no burden of proof on his shoulders. Bottom line is you cannot come to any de facto conclusions based upon one side of a story, no matter how impatient you are for a verdict.

Re; Premies not generally questioning M to the same degree as you and others: When rumours surface, most premies are willing to give Maharaji either the benefit of the doubt, or the freedom to live his own life without interference. Why
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Date: Mon, Apr 06, 1998 at 21:56:57 (EDT)
From: NV
Email: None
To: NV
Subject: Just a thought
Message:
(cont'd - it only posted half of my previous message)

Re; Premies not generally questioning M to the same degree as you and others. When rumours surface, most premies are willing to give Maharaji either the benefit of the doubt, or the freedom to live his own life without interference. Why? Because Maharaji has given them something of great value to them; something that to their eyes in and of itself validates his role as Master. The validity of what he gave them in absolute terms is impossible to determine as it is TOTALLY a subjective experience. Its subjective value to the one having the experience is based on its pertinence in their life. So no need, then no value (a fact that is sometimes mistaken for 'the emperor's new clothes syndrome').

Re; your discussion on David Lane's theories on the Maharaji's lineage. You said that Maharji is not on his list of bad guys but has relatively little importance vis a vis others in the 'tradition' he has defined. I have three issues regarding this:

1) What cr
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Date: Mon, Apr 06, 1998 at 21:58:40 (EDT)
From: nv
Email: None
To: NV
Subject: Just a thought
Message:
(cont'd - again)

Re; your discussion on David Lane's theories on the Maharaji's lineage. You said that Maharji is not on his list of bad guys but has relatively little importance vis a vis others in the 'tradition' he has defined. I have three issues regarding this:

1) What criteria is Lane using to determine importance? What should be used?
2) If there were some line of succession for a Master, is Lane an authority on it or might the Master himself have a better read on it?
3) Is there an unspoken understanding with you and others that if it doesn't appear on Lane's list, they must not be a bona fide satguru?

NV
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Date: Mon, Apr 06, 1998 at 22:44:14 (EDT)
From: TV
Email: forumba
To: nv
Subject: not one thought!
Message:

You can only change a man when he is an infant.

He has to change himself.

If you are closed to the possibility that prem rawat is
no different than yourself then that's that.

If you want to go along with the assumption that god takes
form in the buddist/hindu/guru world in many satguru's,
what can anyone say to you that might make you think perhaps
it is bigger than that?

If you think that god speaks through prem rawat, what can
anyone do for you? WE will type to you some to see if you
would like to take a fresh look, if not, what can anyone
do for you except say 'the video is waiting'.

Perhaps you would like to make a case for prem rawat being lord.
Dont strech that out over many posts, try to say it all at once
and express your present feelings if you want.

Do you think we should think of him at the moment of death?

Do you think he feels our love when we go inside?

Does he hear the prayers to him?

Why did he banish his mom for 18 years till she finally died?
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Date: Mon, Apr 06, 1998 at 23:03:59 (EDT)
From: NV
Email: None
To: TV
Subject: not one thought!
Message:
Thanks Bill, I'll try not to spread this one out.

1. At the moment of death you will have a hard time thinking rationally at all. If they are strong, your fears and attachments will probably pre-empt any controlled exit. It is said you will think about whatever you thought about most in life. Makes sense.

2. Does he feel our love when you go inside? I can't answer that. I can say that I feel love when I think of him.

3. Does he hear prayers to him? I don't know how prayer works.

4. Regarding his mother, I don't know the details. Remember she left him and made it very difficult for him back in India. This is hearsay but I understand that he had an open invitation for her to come back but she never took him up on it.

NV
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Date: Tues, Apr 07, 1998 at 00:01:48 (EDT)
From: bill
Email: ghjmtryui
To: NV
Subject: more than one thought!
Message:
A former premie nurse I knew worked in a cardiac unit in
a hospital, They would lose one and then that person would
come back a couple times a year.

The data from those people was not at all what you have
mentioned. Prem rawat says that the ideal is leaving while
feeling your breath, mergeing in with the energy.

These people ran into something else.

There are numerous stories I could site but I prefer you view
things as you do.

The reason she left him was his behaviour.
Certainly it was very hard for her to be driven to the point
where she had to go public with all this.
It wasn't just about marrying a westerner.
She did not believe he was god or god incarnate.
Until recently I had a whole reasoning for this occurance and
certainly prem rawat backed it up with repeated comments about
his mother didn't belive his father was god either.
The way he told the story was like-boy was she dumb-.
Sure it is a sad story but it is reflective of the truth that
guru is not god but guru is a role.

Some like the way he plays at guru.
But it is quite another issue to try and set up a whole
global impression that he was god and was here and all his
words are divine guidance. A lot that he says runs contrary
to the reality of life. He doesn't even know the --never mind,
I dont want to clue him in if he is reading-eh?

Come on, surely you can admit you have seen that he has had
some dramatic excesses. Why cant this be owned up too?

The denial of realities is not a healthy or godlike way.
There is only the master, his message, and his desires.
Thats my entire purpose in life right?
And to get any experience at all from my breath I am limited
to only loving the master. That is the only REAL love right?
and family? just a pain in the butt.

This is a worthy message from the lord of the age?
And now all the simple people are going to be caught in the
same mess that the buddists are...pretending to each other
that they are reaching this or that divine state 'inside'.

This is a far cry from christianity. And not worth switching
over to. The effort to play lord of the universe and
thereby somehow add validity to the message, and by assembleing
a new army of zealots that say they have this unverifiable
'experience of thier own divinity' given to them by this
god incarnate.....this is a bad thing and probabaly will
qualify for the antichrist title amongst many.

I have show the videos to others. There is something wrong
and they sense it. Maybe it is time you look at yourself
and give one last? try at delusion free living.

Your pal in the armageddin, bill
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Date: Tues, Apr 07, 1998 at 09:38:50 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: bill
Subject: more than one thought!
Message:
Bill,
You are a Christian correct? What type, if you don't mind my asking? I grew up Catholic and have real problems with that institution. I started a thread some time ago and no one responded but it conserned the institutionalization of a good 'seed' as in many religions and I used an example of a home for retarded women I worked in years ago which had started as a small home with the founder working with the residence to provide a home like life style. A very good beginning but by the time I got there the institutionalization had dissolved any good home life feelings other than the setting and the use of residential homes instead of dormitories. On the other hand my youngest sister has become a fundamental Christian. She is a wonderful person and really tries to follow the teachings and example Christ made of his life, (UNLLIKE M--PREMIES!), but there are an overabundance of fundamental Christians that are totally preoccupied with judging others as is her husband who unfortunatly is a minister. I had to reprimand him for using the word faggot in a converstion at my dinner table telling him he'd be asked to leave if he said it again. That was not an isolated incodent, he is, IMHO, a Christian ass and I believe there are to many of them. I feel like I could get pretty fired up about this and don't want to offend you but I'd just like to kknow your outlook and also your oppinions of what I've said here. Thanks.
Also glad to be the connector for you to Jim. My daughter is very against my writing on this forum, looking after her mom like a mom. She doesn't want me to come home with a stalker so although it would be simple to send a letter with her I may have to go another route but I will get your letter to him.
Robyn
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Date: Tues, Apr 07, 1998 at 08:53:08 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: NV
Subject: not one thought!
Message:
NV,
I have one question and it is directed to you and CD. CD posted to me that Mr. Ex has 0.01 credability and posts lies and fabrications about EV's financial wrong doings. Now I read your post where you speak of M's break with his mother. You state that what you type is hearsay but it seems to me that you have taken that information into your heart as true, it is how you can reconcile the facts so you don't have to think about what kind of man this guru is. I suggest that this way of cushioning the truth is what premies on this site do in many other instances conserning M's misconduct. Maybe it doesn't matter to you what he does, who he hurts, uses, humiliates, because you have feelings of love for him. Let me tell you I have loved men who did not deserve it and I still felt that love for them. The only way we have to measure a person is through their words and deeds and IMHO, M fails the test. At some point in each of the situations where I gave love to a man who did not deserve it I woke up to the reality and seperated from that unhealthy bond and that is what many ex-premies on this site have done as well. Would you go so far as to say that if M committed cold blooded murder it still would not effect your feelings for him as Perfect Master, Meditational Teacher, whatever. Would you follow him into an organized suicide if that is what he lead you to? Where if at all would you trust yourself, care for yourself and others around you that you see are good.
Robyn
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Date: Tues, Apr 07, 1998 at 20:45:42 (EDT)
From: NV
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: not one thought!
Message:
Good God Robyn, you clearly haven't met many premies recently, have you? You've really got to stop believing point-blank all the negative garbage you read on this forum. We are not, I am not, following anybody down the same road as heaven's gate or jonestown. Maharaji has never asked anyone to follow him there and will never ask anyone to follow him there. He has never committed cold-blooded murder. So Robyn, STOP WASTING YOUR TIME ASKING HYPOTHETICAL AND STUPID QUESTIONS!!!

Do you KNOW whether the stuff that gets posted on this forum is true or not? OF COURSE YOU DON'T. You choose to believe what you want to believe. Have you gotten close enough on your own to make an independant judgement? Or do you take all these 'expert' naysayers' opinions as fact just because they used to be a follower once? 'Used to be' in this case is about as useful as yesterday's lunch. You guys really make me laugh when you think you know enough about him to judge him.

As for Maharaji passing your test of word and deed: You ha
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Date: Tues, Apr 07, 1998 at 21:18:55 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: NV
Subject: NV's losing it too
Message:
NV,

I can't help but notice your coming apart a bit. Maybe this isn't really a good place for you, huh?

Those hypothetical questions sure can be a waste of time, can't they?

Relax, friend. Get a near-beer and settle down.

When you said:

'Used to be' in this case is about as useful as yesterday's lunch. You guys really make me laugh when you think you know enough about him to judge him

you really made me think. You're right, Maharaji shouldn't have to answer for anything that happened say, more than ten years ago. Right? Okay five. No? Three? Hmm, this isn't really going to work. I know, how about Maharaji has to answer for just one big thing that happened evey year since 1973? Just one. All us ex's would vote (premies could submit secret ballots).

Say someone wants to ask him about the pie/hammer incident. But sya someone else wants to ask him about Millenium. Well that's just too bad. They both happened in '73 and, fair is fair, Maharji only has to answer for one. That wouldn't be THAT bad, would it, NV?

What if we spread the questions out, so he only had to deal with one per 'event'? Lots of time to pump a lot of love everywhere before and after. We'll just squeeze thta question in so nice and fast. Maybe we can do it when most of the premies aren't even in the hall yet. NV, I'm trying to find a way to accomodate your concerns. Will you meet me half-way?

NV, if even that won't work, I'll concede. He's YOUR guru now. The guy I surrendered my life to for eight years is nowhere to be found. Lucky devil.
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Date: Tues, Apr 07, 1998 at 21:52:57 (EDT)
From: NV
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: NV's losing it too
Message:
Jim

Thanks for the near-beer advice, I feel better now. Yeah, I lost my cool with Robyn. Don't you just hate it when people say really inane things.

The stupid questions I was refering to in my post to her has nothing to do with the ones you ask. I was of course refering to the idiotic 'what-if' scenarios she painted. As for the questions you ask, go ahead squeeze then into whatever crack you can find. I'm all for you getting an answer. Just don't ask me to account for things I'm not responsible for.

NV
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Date: Mon, Apr 06, 1998 at 23:04:47 (EDT)
From: TV
Email: fghjouimkjnh
To: nv
Subject: so said rawat.
Message:
I expect you might dismiss the questions as 'ones that
rawat has to answer'.

Well if you as the follower cannot answer them for yourself,
then why not?

If this effort of his was free of heavy handed claims
and demands and the vast history of domination, then maybe
your idea of each persons subjective experience being the
validity would have some weight. But the programming
has been long term and intense and what do YOU think about
his comments to you about his long imprisonment in anger, fear,
doubt, darkness ect. that he spoke about in dec.97?
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Date: Mon, Apr 06, 1998 at 23:25:46 (EDT)
From: NV
Email: None
To: TV
Subject: so said rawat.
Message:
I don't have a clue what you are refering to re Dec. 97.

Believe me, we're all programmed. Inherently we're programmed by nature to be happy. In our upbringing that gets replaced with other programming, from school, parents, job, etc. So sad!

Maharaji reminds you of the original programming you forgot about to be happy.
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Date: Tues, Apr 07, 1998 at 00:17:11 (EDT)
From: TV
Email: bill
To: NV
Subject: dogma days of summer
Message:
You want to just gloss over all the things he has said
over the years?
Just wipe them off the history books and move on with a
feel good concept?
If that was all he had as a message, there would be no
web site here.
We would all just bring our patiently waiting friends into the
kingdom of good cheer.
There is more to it then feeling your breath.
It is ignoreing some realities of life to spout incomplete
dogma about the way to happiness.

Let's see, serve, love, watch and listen too the person
playing the role of guru. happiness is mine!
Except that it doesn't work like that for him.
Except he hasn't found the happiness trick.
He is hoping the 'energy' will give him that along with
the experience of 'lord' so he can act out being the lord
from a real place. Hasn't happened. Wont happen. Because why?
I dont want to clue him in if he is reading.
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Date: Mon, Apr 06, 1998 at 23:26:47 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: NV
Subject: Stop being silly
Message:
NV:

I have learned that you have to hear both sides of any story before coming to conclusions about it.

So, what was Idi Amin's account again. I forget...

Mishler gave his account, probably based among other reasons, on a need to try to clear his own name.

Clear his own name with whom? With premies? Why would he care? With his family? I didn't have to 'clear my name' with mine. They were just glad to have me around. With Joan Apter? With potential employers? Was he under investigation by the FBI? WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?

Maharaji isn't coming to the table to respond to Mishler's claims - that's his choice to make. That does not mean that Mishler's claims are correct. You could make a case that the optics of not addressing Mishler directly causes a negative message to be sent but that is his choice to make, after all there is no burden of proof on his shoulders.

There isn't? What do you mean 'optics?' Triangulation is a term referring to fixing a coordinate. What does that have to do with whether or not Maharaji gives testimony?

Bottom line is you cannot come to any de facto conclusions based upon one side of a story, no matter how impatient you are for a verdict.

Do you mean it's illegitimate to convict someone if they refuse to testify? NV, you are just being silly. If you don't straighten up I'm going to stop reading your posts altogether.

-Scott
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Date: Mon, Apr 06, 1998 at 23:49:37 (EDT)
From: NV
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Stop being silly
Message:
Scott, is that a threat?

Listen, has Maharaji been formally indicted on any charge? No, so is there any burden of proof on his shoulders? No, so does this pseudo court case you're trying to wage on the Internet cause him concern? Appearently not because he doesn't respond. Does he offer any answers to people who sincerely want guidance on practising Knowledge? Yes at events and in videos, so why should he waste his time responding to you guys? I don't know, maybe one day he will. Until then, you've only heard one side of the story.

Are you implying by your oblique reference to Idi Amin that M is in the same category? Shame on you.

As for Mishler wanting to clear his name: Of course he would want to make his case to the premies. That would only be natural. Come on Scott, try to empathise. I know it's hard from the ivory tower but give it a try.

Lastly, 'Optics' is a commonly used term in the business world refering to the 'look' or 'appearence' to outsiders of something. If it's not already there it will probably be in the next revision of Oxford's Dictionary.

Sure do hope this keeps you coming back for more.

NV
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Date: Tues, Apr 07, 1998 at 00:30:05 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: NV
Subject: Stop being silly
Message:
Who said anything about a court case? If that were happening we could subpoena Mr. Rawat and have him testify under oath.

And if we took your standard, and only came to conclusions after getting all sides of the story, one could never make conclusions because Mr. Rawat likely will never come forward and give his side of the story. Or, to the extent he has, from what I have seen, he refuses to take any responsibility whatsoever and blames the premies, and/or the world for whatever goes wrong.

And you have no way of knowing, because you don't know his side of the story either, that he doesn't respond because what people say on the internet doesn't concern him. It is just as likely that, whether concerned or not, silence is just a conscious choice so that apologists like you can say all less than flattering conclusions about him are based on incomplete information. Bit of a catch 22.

This may be the same reason he simply refrains from responding to letters that premies send him. Like a couple of registered letters I sent to him, which he never bothered to respond to.

I also tend to take what Mishler said at face value. Other than M's drinking problems, which are pretty much common knowledge among premies and ex-premies, the only other negative thing he said was that M was upset and confused and that he spent money like water. Neither of those comments are very surprising either. He actually went out of his way to say that M wasn't a womanizer in those days, which, if he was really out to trash Maharaji, he could have thrown in for good measure, but didn't despite being given the opportunity. This increases his credibility in my book.

So, if you are a premie, and, despite practicing knowledge, you are not having the wonderful experience you talk about that makes one discount all other objective information you get, including interactions with M and the people around him that are pretty negative, then, if you leave the cult, and find your life improves immensely, you tend to look back on the whole cult experience with a somewhat more skeptical eye.
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Date: Tues, Apr 07, 1998 at 21:06:14 (EDT)
From: Zen
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Stop being silly
Message:
JW

If you use a chain saw to file your nails and you're having a hell of a time to keep from cutting your fingers off, after you stop using it, you look back on the whole chainsaw experience with a somewhat skeptical eye.

If A equals B, and B equals C, then A must equal C, right?

If this is too deep, stop me.
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Date: Tues, Apr 07, 1998 at 09:33:21 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: NV
Subject: Stop being fatuous
Message:
NV:

Are you implying by your oblique reference to Idi Amin that M is in the same category?

You already know I don't regard MJ as a class I villain. You seem to imply that we are required to hear both sides of a story before making a judgment. In my opinion MJ has had ample opportunity to respond, and may still do so. I'm anxious to hear from him, and hope he can either give a credible account, or can make a sincere apology. However only someone with a Titanic 'need to believe' would say that a wait of 20 years is a 'rush to judgment.'

As for Mishler wanting to clear his name: Of course he would want to make his case to the premies.

I don't care what premies think of me. Jim doesn't care what they think of him. Brian doesn't care. As far as I can tell it would be illogical for anyone who has left the mission to care what premies think, as a group. Talk about an 'ivory tower!'

Lastly, 'Optics' is a commonly used term in the business world referring to the 'look' or 'appearance' to outsiders of something.

I have an MBA. I'm well aware of the use of the term in marketing. I thought you were talking about 'appearances' in this sense, and lo-and-behold, you are! I am influenced to believe Mishler not because MJ is absent, but because Mishler sounds honest, because it comports with what I know to be true in the sociology of religion (ala Max Weber), and because it comports with other first and second hand evidence about his behavior. Hence the term 'triangulation.'

NV, if you will look at my Apologia you will find that I believe we cannot ultimately know MJ's subjective state if it involves strategic action in the realm of ideas. One interpretation is that he behaves the way he does, by design. If you want to believe this is the case then be my guest. Recognize only that you have no special 'status' in doing so. It also does not prevent you from looking at the evidence and coming to the conclusion that his behavior is flawed. You will, however, have to give up your present ideal about him, or at least seriously entertain doing so.

Sure do hope this keeps you coming back for more.

If you keep insisting that someone who refuses to present their own side of an argument involving the morality of their behavior has to be regarded as blameless, and that an hiatus of 20 years is a bum's rush to judgment, then I really have more important things to attend to.

-Scott
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Date: Tues, Apr 07, 1998 at 21:40:43 (EDT)
From: NV
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Stop being fatuous
Message:

Scott

Who said anything about rushing to judgement. Judgement is based on hearing both sides of a story, and you have only heard Mishler's side. Wait 100 years without hearing the other side and you're still rushing to judgement.

As for using triangulation theorem to zero in on a verdict: sounds good but it's still not a science in this case - contrary to your eloquent explanation. For example, your one vector is Mishler's appearent honesty. Well, he may also be so DIShonest that he's an excellent liar? He certainly had a good reason to want to harm Maharaji. His post at DLM was his day to day existence for a number of years and that was taken away from him. His name was soiled (BTW Jim and your disposition regarding premies has nothing to do with his). I've seen it time and time again, when someone is relieved of their post a lot of stuff gets churned up from 'honest sounding people' that you never would have believed they could have been capable of. So believe what you want to believe Scott. In the
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Date: Tues, Apr 07, 1998 at 21:51:15 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: NV
Subject: Stop being fatuous
Message:
NV,

Let's be reasonable. You're right. Sometimes,whistleblowers are nothing more than disgruntled 'former' employees who are lying through their teeth. Granted, okay?

BUT, sometimes such whistleblowers are simply telling the truth.

Did you see my little analogy about 'full-spectrum speculation'? Simple concept, the name says it all. Why is it premies only speculate in the reds?

Second point (referring to your first): do you really believe that silence is always a valid defence? That's preposterous and flies in the face of common sense and most jurisprudence. Come on, Senor Speculator, speculate with me about WHY Maharaji never responded to Mishler (or any other critic for that matter).

And why not break out of the premie mold and give us a little full-spectrum speculation, okay?

I'll tell you what, I'll even do the 'reds' if you like. Give you a break. Ready? You go first.
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Date: Tues, Apr 07, 1998 at 22:00:50 (EDT)
From: NV
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Stop being fatuous
Message:
Jim

How do you know I don't take into account the full spectrum? And how can you be sure that you do?

As for silence being a defence, defence from what? You? There'd have to be a threat for someone to require a defence. N'est-ce pas?

Speculate away mon frere. But because you gave me good advice about the near-beer I have some for you: You should really stop speculating about questions that have little relevance to your life, and find answers for ones that do.

NV
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Date: Tues, Apr 07, 1998 at 22:18:57 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: NV
Subject: Stop being fatuous
Message:
NV,

This 'full-spectrum speculation' isn't rocket science. It's just a matter of considering all the possible explanations and giving them appropriate weight based on the world we know. How do I know you don't take into account all possible explanations for M's actions (i.e. including the unfavorable ones)? I don't. But it sure looks that way when neither you nor any other premie posting here voices them.

I guess that's what I'm asking you to do, dialogue a little more openly. Lay your cards down and let's play open-face something or other. If you think it's possible that the reason M didn't answer Mishler (except to have Joe Anctil tell the L.A. Times that Mishler was crazy), is, quite simply, that Mishler was right, why not say so? Just becuase you acknowledge the possibility doesn't mean you have to accept it.

I've got to warn you, though. I am trying to lead you down the primrose path. Just acknowledging a possibility won't do, I'm going to ask you to give it its due weight. I'd expect the same from you, of course.

Your closing adive stupefies me. If M's legitimacy is irrelevant to my life I don't know what isn't. After all, either I've walked away from the one true guide, lord, guide-dog or master, I've ever had, or I haven't. How can you think otherwise? NV, it matters.
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Date: Tues, Apr 07, 1998 at 09:50:46 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: NV
Subject: Stop being silly
Message:
NV,
Have you ever heard of Jim and Tamy Fay Baker? I'm sure the Christians who followed them fought just as hard to defend them before the preverbial shit hit the fan for them and probably some people continued to stand behind them after the fact also. That is what your argument boils down to for me. Illogical and devoted.
Robyn
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Date: Tues, Apr 07, 1998 at 22:07:49 (EDT)
From: NV
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Stop being silly
Message:
Robyn

Don't know what the Bakers have to do with the argument. What are you trying to say, just because there have been frauds in past, Maharaji could be one. Rather a large tangential leap Robyn with very little but fear and speculation to back it up.

By the way thanks for your opinion about my argument. If you were at all open to listening to my story I'd be flattered you gave me one.

NV
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Date: Tues, Apr 07, 1998 at 00:15:04 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: NV
Subject: Just a thought
Message:
I'm sure you can see from the posts you've read that ex-premies are not any kind of monolithic group. So whatever 'need' any one person might have is likely quite different from any other. And that need can change over time. For example, some people who used to be premies are trying to get a perspective on what happened to them and why for whatever period they were involved. Others who have been involved can be very helpful in that regard.

And what I think Scott is referring to in the 'need to believe' is that the longer one has identified with a set of beliefs, and the more one is invested in it, the harder it usually is to question those beliefs and why they were accepted in the first place.

I don't believe anyone is asking you to adopt Jim's 'rules of debate.' If he asks you a question and you don't know the answer, just say so. No big deal. And what is so bad about giving your personal opinion?
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Date: Tues, Apr 07, 1998 at 13:10:15 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: JW
Subject: Just a thought
Message:
Dear Joe,
What a good man you are.
Robyn
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Date: Tues, Apr 07, 1998 at 17:20:07 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Just a thought
Message:
Thank you, Robyn. That's the nicest thing anyone said to me all day!
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Date: Tues, Apr 07, 1998 at 22:10:18 (EDT)
From: NV
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Just a thought
Message:
Why, because he agrees with you?
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Date: Sun, Apr 05, 1998 at 13:19:10 (EDT)
From: David
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: Bruce
Subject: Kanguru etc
Message:
You mention quite a bit about Maharaji's presence. What is it about his presence do you find divine? People used to get inspired by Princess Diana's presence, but she would have been the last to suggest that she was divine. Adolph Hitler had a very strong presence and charisma and if you hear him speak then you'll probably agree that he was a formidable orator. If you are saying Maharaji is divine or in fact God, then there must be something more you can relate other than a presence of a possible charisma. Otherwise, Hitler could be constued as being divine.
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Date: Sun, Apr 05, 1998 at 15:21:17 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Bruce
Subject: Kanguru etc
Message:
Well, Bruce, I guess I would have to say that your message is pretty biased too. First of all, the only thing mentioned in the Australian article about the ex-premie website was that ex-followers of Maharaji were posting here and saying that Maharaji had been less than a positive influence on their lives. That's just people expressing their own opinions, based on their personal experiences. Are they being 'biased?' Are YOU being biased?

Secondly, it was interesting that the article mentioned the lies that the PR of EV (in the person of Ross Sutton) was spewing. For example, Ms. Sutton said that Maharaji's cult-like behavior of the past was due to his involvement with DLM and that M had no involvement with that organization anymore. Then, of course, the journalist did some research and found that, like in the states, Elan Vital IS exactly the same organization as DLM and there was nothing more than a name change in 1986. All very accurate and incisive reporting if you ask me.

Also, I thought was interesting that the journalist also looked up the aircraft landing records and discovered that M flew in own, private jet and it had a value in the 10s of millions of dollars. Anything innacurate about that? If so, what? It might be embarrassing, but unless you have other information, I assume it's true.

Also, I thought it was interesting that M made his family fly to Australia on commercial airlines. Good enough for them, but not good enough for HIM? Does he need a fantastically expensive personal just just because he likes to fly it? How much money have you given him for that little toy?

And if Maharaji and his somewhat paranoid organization were a little more open, journalists might be able to get complete information and the articles might be a little more balanced. But I don't believe the reporter was allowed into the holy Amaroo site so they could be in the 'divine presence' which you imply is the answer to all possible doubts or questions.

I have also spent quite a bit of time in Maharaji's 'divine presence' and I used to talk about it much the way you do. But what I discovered was that the experience I was having was entirely due to my own faith (a very powerful force) and my strong desire to believe he was some kind of a supreme being. But when I started to look at him objectively, that all went away, and I saw him as a very odd, ordinary, and highly disturbed individual. And, by the way, I was practicing knowledge diligently at the time.

By the way, other premies who attended the Australia program had a different experience than you and have posted here saying so. Some thought it was incredibly weird, somewhat paranoid and bizarre. They just couldnt' relate, especially to the idea of Maharaji having thousands to line up to kiss his feet once again, just like the 70s, when he is trying to portray himself in the west (and apparently god in the east) as a glorified meditation teacher who really isn't into being worshipped. So much for that little charade. I believe he felt he had to go to the Australian outback to give darshan to westerners, hoping that the fact that he did it wouldn't get out to people who he might be able to con into his organization with the promise that it's just about meditation and not really a personality cult.

You are entitled to your own, personal experience of what M is about. And I think ex-premies are entitled to theirs. How about this? We won't say you are a programmed cult member if you don't say ex-premies are just confused, lacking in understanding, overly negative, didn't or aren't practicing knowledge diligently enough, or are just 'in their minds.' Believe me we have heard it all before and it's pretty insulting and lame.
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Date: Mon, Apr 06, 1998 at 15:43:34 (EDT)
From: NV
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Kanguru etc
Message:
JW maybe a more fair observation of ex-premies is that they aren't all negative but are PRONE to believe as fact any negative rumor, or any negative spin on a fact. They didn't necessarily not understand fully the purpose of receiving K and the role of M but many are UNWILLING to entertain the possibility that it may be the case (a fact that I for one will unabashedly say was my condition for many years... could still be). And you weren't in your minds back then but could quite possibly have listened to your heads to the detriment of your hearts when those 'liberating' doubts about M started to take hold.

I will contest that you are probably personally better off now, but only if you can move on. If not, you're mind has you trapped ... possibly just as much as it always has.

NV
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Date: Tues, Apr 07, 1998 at 00:51:33 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: NV
Subject: Kanguru etc
Message:
Why would you 'contest' that I'm probably personally better off now? On what possible basis can you 'contest' that, not knowing me from Adam? Or are you all knowing? Who do you think you are? [But since that last paragraph of yours doesn't make any sense maybe you didn't mean 'contest?']

And move on from what? As I think I have mentioned, I didn't really even think about the cult or Maharaji for a good 10 years. I have found, however, that with some time, you get new insights you didn't have before, and it can be helpful to discuss them. And please, don't give me that 'trapped in you mind' crap. I doubt you even believe that nonsense. Part of the reason I post on the site, is that I find it sometimes stimulating and often very interesting and funny. In fact, I really feel I didn't 'move on' until I left the cult, where I feel I was really stuck.

I think there is something very admirable in people who are trying to incorporate a major period of their lives into the lives they are living now. As I think you can appreciate, someone who has never been in a cult might have a hard time understanding what it was like. The ex-premies understand, and I also find it interesting hearing what has happened to them since.

Regarding whether an ex-premie, or anyone else, is PRONE to accepting rumors, I think you may be speaking from the perspective of someone who NEVER accepts rumors about M, no matter what. Personally, even on this site, I have heard precious few 'rumors.' The vast majority of rumors I heard while I was a premie, and, as was usually the case, they turned out to be true.

I do recall one rumor that said Claudia was dead, but that got dispelled in about 10 minutes. I also recall a rumor that Maharaji had a mistress. I, for one, do NOT automatically accept that rumor, however, I do believe ex-premies, who worked closely around M, and whom I respect enormously, who told me personally that Maharaji had affairs with women other than his wife in the 80s. I do not consider those 'rumors' to me, although to anyone else, they likely are. But, I do not go around repeating this. Not because I don't believe it's true, but because I don't think it's a significant issue, and it isn't one of the major problems I have with Maharaji and hiw he operates.

What rumors are you talking about? Specifically, please.

Most of what gets discussed here is the personal experiences of people. It is insulting for someone to discount those experiences of to characterize them as 'rumors.'

And I don't expect you to believe this, but it was exactly my 'heart' I WAS listening to when I got out of the cult. For me it wasn't a matter of intellectual or linear thought processes. It was a matter of personal survival. I'd be happy to talk about his if it's something you'd like to hear.
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Date: Sun, Apr 05, 1998 at 16:16:16 (EDT)
From: Paula
Email: None
To: Bruce
Subject: Kanguru etc
Message:
hi, Bruce. it is good to know you found your way to feel divine things. Good for you. But this magic you talk about is not felt from everyone. I believe that many people here felt that, before they change their minds. I never felt that, and I am still curious about why people feel so much hate and so much passion (I used the word 'passion', but I hope you understand what I mean) about M.

I live exactly in the opposite side (on earth) of your country. And premies here does not ask questions too. They accept their master as if they were in the East. But would you mind if I share with you an experience? I would like to know what you think (or feel) about it. Mahraji comes here sometimes. Everything is very organized, as it is in every countries where he pass by. But... not everyone feels this magic. I look at people, I like to observe. While some premies almost cry when they see their master, some other people are looking at their watch to check when the session will end. I was listening, but M says the same things with the same words, and sometimes it is repetitive and boring to me. I think that it is something as a premade speech (it is just an opinion, don't get mad). You can tell it happens in everywhere. But I can tell you, not really.

For example, Dalai Lama, from Tibet, came here to give an interview and visit some people. He weared his east clotches, he behaviored as if he was in the East. There was about 1000 people watching him. Everyone silent, and paying attention to what he was telling. I felt peace. He is not my master, and I am far from be following a master, or having faith in a flesh-and-bone God. But something, at this time, made me curious. This man went to a tropical forest, for a 1 day walk with people. He was bited by a lot of mosquitos. He said, he would not kill them, because the mosquitos have life too. Everyone there got worried about his health, because his skin was horrible, after thousand mosquitos byting him. Next day, he woke up and there was no marks of mosquitos there. This was magical. And he never said he was special, he never said 'after 6 months of videos I give you techniques of meditation'.

As a matter of fact, in a lot of techniques of meditation, there is no one involved besides you.

what do you think of it? I would like to understand you. I talked about this with many premies, friends of mine, but they only laugh, as if they had a power that I don't have, but to me it seems like if they were in a dream and did not wake up for reality. I would like to know about you.
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Date: Mon, Apr 06, 1998 at 10:51:42 (EDT)
From: Bruce
Email: phoenix@b024.aone.net.au
To: Paula
Subject: Kanguru etc
Message:
Dear Paula,
Sorry to take so long to respond, but as I said in my original post, that I have many things that I have and like to do.
I,d like to know from which country you are from sometime too.
Your story about the Dalai Lama is very nice. I have seen him also, and he emanates a nice feeling, for sure.
Personally though, I was not attracted to become a student of Tibetan Buddhism, which is very much part of the deal with him. I have friends who are involved in some way with him and his work, and practice some form of meditation. Quite possibly, had I not already experienced the Knowledge which M. teaches, and M. himself, I too may have been interested. Sitting and listening to him it was very clear to me that he could not connect me to my own inner experience in the way M. does. Of course, I cannot speak for anyone else in this regard.
For me, the method that M. shows is very, very, simple. In fact that is probably why so many Westerners particularly have difficulty with it, whereas Tibetan Buddhism for example is often popular with Westerners partly because there are so many 'ideas' to get into. Anyway, keeping things simple, my experience has been that Knowledge is something which starts off small, like a seed, and with the proper care, grows at its own rate in its own time. This speed seems to be different for everyone. I haven't always experienced what I do now. I have found that,as I connect more with the feeling inside me, then when I do see M. in person , the
better it is, and I've realized that he is like a mirror to help me see inside. This is really the essence of M's teaching really, that what we seek is already inside, and it is there we need to look. His role is the mirror . Once this becomes a reality, then there is no more confusion, and things fall into place. But its not always easy !!!!!!!
There is no requirement that people become students of M. He himself always says this. He just tells people that if they are interested, come and listen more, if not thats fine,too. Just try to enjoy each moment, feel your heart. People are like fruit,they ripen in the correct season.
I have seen already that there is a lot of misinformation on this website, and some of the main participants seem ill informed of what is happening in the present time, and a lot of the' debates' have no relevance to what M, is doing in 1998.
I'm happy to respond to you , and I suggest if you can get along to a video screening of M. speaking. He is the one to listen to with your heart. I find clarity comes from that.
Regards,Bruce
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Date: Mon, Apr 06, 1998 at 12:18:14 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Bruce
Subject: Kanguru etc
Message:
Bruce,
Welcome, I, unlike some here do not bristel when a premie comes on with their talk of devotion but then that is because I never gave myself over to M. I, like others here still see the benifits of the meditation without its ties to M. I just read a few newer journey entries of the people I 'see' here and some also in email contact, to get to 'know' them better. There is an updated journey entry from Anon. BTW, Anon, I know that is not your real name but I like it as such. Maybe my next animal! His entry is LONG and as you say your time is limited as is mine but I stuck with it and Anon, the part where you are speaking yourself towards the end had me in tears, it wasn't sad but sometimes real honesty effects me that way. Anyway Bruce, back to you. In Anon's journey entry he speaks of the meditation we, ex-premies and premies alike have 'recieved'. He believed that this meditation was controlled by M when he was a devotee of M but since that time has researched and found other guru's also 'give' it to their devotees as a direct 'gift of their grace'. Each guru stating to be the only perfect master and now how can that be true. He also revealed these techniques to school students of his at different times with similar results. We are all capable, as human beings with brains, to experience these techniques. This was always my belif and I had a wonderful and growing experience with K during my time in DLM and since without ever feeling that my experience had anything to do with M. Can you accept this?
Robyn
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Date: Mon, Apr 06, 1998 at 13:41:40 (EDT)
From: Bruce
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Kanguru etc
Message:
Dear Robyn,
Thanks for the welcome! Nice change from the agro from some of those hard line ex's. I won't have whatever the're having!!!

Sure I can accept that. How can I not? It was your experience.

Devoted as I am to M, its not his physical body,or personality,or
lifestyle that I feel devoted to.

Can you accept that?
Bruce
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Date: Mon, Apr 06, 1998 at 15:36:36 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Bruce
Subject: Kanguru etc
Message:
Bruce,
Yes I accept your position also. I think I understand, you feel devoted to M as the one who 'gives' you your experience in meditation. Is that what you mean?
Robyn
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Date: Mon, Apr 06, 1998 at 15:43:21 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Hardliner calling Robyn
Message:
Robyn,

I've got to ask you the same question I asked Bruce. When you say

Yes I accept your position also. I think I understand, you feel devoted to M as the one who 'gives' you your experience in meditation.

I'm sure you mean that, as starters, you 'accpet' that Bruce is sincere in his beliefs and that he believes that M gives him his experience. But do you 'accept' that M does in fact do that or are you just humouring Bruce for whatever reason?
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Date: Mon, Apr 06, 1998 at 18:25:46 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Jim
Subject: Hardliner calling Robyn
Message:
Jim,
Hey Mr Hardliner, got a period I could use?
In answere to your question, yes I believe Bruce is sincere in his beliefa and I asked him if he believes that M gives him his experience. Maybe he has answered that question but I haven't seen it yet. I do not believe that M in fact give the experience but I am not humoring Bruce. As I've said I haven't seen his answer but I am allowing us to differ in our beliefs and convictions without being threatened by those differences. I think you know me in that I would have to pushed to some as yet unseen point before I become confrontational. I'm just trying to find out a few things and may never understand a current premies motivations to buy into the M trip but they are on this forum and for one reason or another I felt like responding to him. Don't worry, Jim, I haven't sent for any video's. I just believe the meditation has value and is independant of M.
Robyn
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Date: Tues, Apr 07, 1998 at 03:00:49 (EDT)
From: Bruce
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Kanguru etc
Message:
Hi I'm back for a little while.
I don't know that'explaining' my devotion can be very successful, but here are a few things.
It was M. that initially informed me about the specific techniques,
existence and role of a master etc. (I had had other techniques and path ideas before.)
It was listening to people speak about K. and M.which resulted in my first real taste of inner experience (bliss) without usingdrugs

The K.session (before I saw M.) gave me a deep, quite familiar feeling of home.
I recognised that this feeling was and had always been there.
My first physical encounter with M. was in a small room. Too many things to say here but I was shocked at first glimpse of him
He literally shone with light. I'd never experienced anything like it. Interestingly , the feeling was still coming from somewhere deep inside me, only more obvious now. There was a connection
between something in him and the very depths of my being.
I have experienced this in so many ways.since then. The devotion is between two souls, not between bodies or minds.
There are times when I feel a merger with something so vast,indiscribable. Does he 'give'it to me? No I don't feel that.
Its something I already had . His presense, his words, following his advice all seem to increase the depth to which I can dive.He acts as a mirror.
Its real. Its not something I believe in, talk myself into nor has anything to do with name tags which seem to preoccupy some of the folk on this forum.
Just an aside on another matter, I've got into the' M's lifestyle'
in the past. I've found that neither his or my lifestyle had anything to do with my inner experience.
Contrary to most of the rubbish bandied around here M. lives an exemplary lifestyle,totally dedicated to spreading K. and his family.
He's no prude, and is not perfect. Legally, he could be called fanaticaL He insists on eveything being squeeky clean in that regard. I've personally experienced this many times. Actually, he aims on the highest standards in everything, come to think of it.
I don't think he doesn't make mistakes, but I'd say that most of the perceived problems, particularly in the days of DLM, stem from the rather motley crew he picked up, without predudice.
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Date: Tues, Apr 07, 1998 at 11:12:33 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Bruce
Subject: Forgetting something, Bruce?
Message:
Bruce,

It sounds like you were/are fairly close to M. That must make you very proud.

One thing I wonder about when premies talk about the 'experience' of darshan is the fact that, before the Holy Family split, premies talked about having this same 'experience' with MJ, BBJ and BJ (BJ!?). Remember? And I can't help but think that if M had eight more brothers and sisters, we'd have 'experienced darshan' with them too.

So, first, will you acknowledge this fact? I know it isn't talked about much these days -- funny, that -- but it was a central aspect to pre-Holy Family split life. Please don't deny it. I think it'd be much more interesting to hear you explain it.

Here's your problem, as I see it. You CAN'T really explain that phenomena. I guess you could say it never happened but that'd be a lie and I'm sure you wouldn't intentionally stoop so low.

You COULD speculate that maybe they'd been plugged into the family divinity like it was a string of Christmas lights or something. They unscrewed themselves and simply stopped glowing. But that would be pretty fantastic speculation, unsafe at any speed.

The fact is, the best you can honestly say is that you jus don't know. Your clinging to the notion that this darshan stuff is real but you can't explain how it worked with M's family because, as we all know, M stopped trying to explain things years ago.

So -- and here's my point -- if you don't know what it was to 'experience darshan' from BJ, the marginally-retarded (?) 20 year-old brother of your Lord, who now apparently drives or owns a few taxis in New Jersey, or from BBJ, former Minister of Transportation in the wonderful-I'm-sure-but-still-mundane Indian government (they don't ALL glow, do they?) or Mata Ji, who was so busy packing up her nicest saris and splitting for home, calling a lawyer and re-reading dad's will that she might have glowed only intermittently for a while there......... if you don't know how REAL any of that was -- and you don't is the point I've been trying to make inspite of myself here -- then you can't really say how real it is with Maharaji either, can you?
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Date: Tues, Apr 07, 1998 at 12:54:42 (EDT)
From: Mr Ex
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Darshan experience....
Message:
As a matter of fact, I've been travelling a lot with old time's
mahatmas, and I must confess I had the same 'experience'
with them!!!!

That was a little bit too much for me at that time,
and I couldn't explain it, nor could I talk about it
with anybody.
It was quite obvious that some other premies have had
that same 'experience', and that's why quite some people
kept fighting and being into politics to 'have that service'.

Same thing for 'doing service at the residence', etc
some interesting positions in EV

perfectly explainable
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Date: Tues, Apr 07, 1998 at 13:30:30 (EDT)
From: P
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Forgetting something, Bruce?
Message:
Jim:
I'm surprised you never heard this. The reason there was a special grace involved with the Holy Family was that their father, the Satguru of his time, invested in each of them a special gift. Each of them used that gift differently. Some of them abused that gift, some of them have used it properly. They were supposed to use that gift to help spread the Knowledge. Still though the gift was there, and people could sense it in Mata Ji, or BBJ, or Raja Ji, in all of them really. Now that's not so hard to understand, is it?
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Date: Tues, Apr 07, 1998 at 13:55:04 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: P
Subject: Forgetting something, Bruce?
Message:
Thanks P,

I'd forgotten exactly how the fairy tale went. Is that really it? When did he give them the special gift? Did he give it to Mata Ji on their wedding night (now, now... I'm just asking.)

Actually, you remind me -- what ABOUT RJ? He never 'abused' his gift. Does he still give darshan?
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Date: Tues, Apr 07, 1998 at 14:14:50 (EDT)
From: P
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Forgetting something, Bruce?
Message:
Jim:
Actually, funny you should ask about Raji Ji, the most blessed of all the children of Shri Hans Ji Maharaj. (BTW, do you know the story of why Shri Hans Ji Maharaj's name is not Shri Hans Maharaj Ji?)
Raji Ji is the most blessed because he remained faithful to the real Guru Maharaj Ji, who is of course his youngest brother. As a boon, Guru Maharaj Ji told Raja Ji that he could have anything he wanted. Raja Ji requested simply that he could be allowed to be Guru Maharaj Ji's faithful friend and companion in this lifetime and not have any special powers at all, so that he would not be a distraction to Guru Maharaj Ji.
Guru Maharaj Ji granted this boon on one condition: that Raja Ji would never ever feel obligated to stay with Guru Maharaj Ji. Raja Ji can come and go as he pleases but still to this day, Raja Ji remains his youngest brother's faithful friend and companion.
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Date: Tues, Apr 07, 1998 at 14:25:48 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: P
Subject: Forgetting something, Bruce?
Message:
Is there an adult version of this? I just remember thinking that those two women were so beautiful and, sigh, well I guess I had taken a vow of celibacy for life and, let's not fool anyone, in that game even a thought's completely verboten, but, well what do you expect? They gave us their glossy pictures to look at. Sure, we'd had Mata Ji's too but, you know....
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Date: Tues, Apr 07, 1998 at 23:15:30 (EDT)
From: P
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: A lesson in lust
Message:
Jim:

I wonder if you know the story of how Shri Hans Ji Maharaj found his wife Mata Ji?

He was looking for a virtuous and good woman because he knew his time was at hand to plant the seeds of the next generation. He went to a convent and knocked on the door. A young sister of the cloth answered the door and inquired about his business. He said that he needed to find a young and virtous woman, pure of heart and mind who could become his wife and father his children. The young sister immediately fell to her knees and said, 'I am that woman, ravish me oh Lord, I am yours!'

Shri Hans looked at her disprovingly and said, 'No, my dear daughter, you cannot be. Your mind has proven to be filled with impurities. My wife will bear me four sons, one of whom will take my message to the world, but she will remain a virgin until her death.'

She was incredulous and without batting an eyelash, proclaimed, 'You've got to be joking old man, you're going to make her go through the torture of child birth and not even let her have any fun!? There is an old saying: If you dance, you must pay the fiddler. You're suggesting that this wife of yours must pay the fiddler and not be allowed to dance.! Won't you reconsider?'
And then she very coyly did bat her eyelashes, smiling in a most suggestive manner.

Shri Hans was taken aback and then roared with laughter. He said, 'My daughter, you have shown me something even more important than a pure mind and a guileless heart. You have a quick wit and a sense of humor. I shall allow you to be my wife, and yes you shall be allowed the pleasure of the dance before you pay the fiddler.'

The morning after their wedding night, it is said that Mata Ji practically floated down the stairs in bliss, and she gave 100 rupies to her servant and said 'Go into town and give that to the first fiddler that you find!'
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Date: Tues, Apr 07, 1998 at 15:33:09 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: P
Subject: Forgetting something, Bruce?
Message:
P,
Not if you've seen Walt Disney's Sleeping Beauty where the fairies give special gifts to her to protect her from the evil witch.
Robyn
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Date: Tues, Apr 07, 1998 at 16:53:08 (EDT)
From: P
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Forgetting something, Bruce?
Message:
Dear sister,
All stories are reflections of the real story, the only story worth telling, which is the divine interplay between the Master and devotee.
The master gives the special gift of Knowledge, which is protection from the evil witch, the mind.
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Date: Tues, Apr 07, 1998 at 17:33:10 (EDT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: P
Subject: Forgetting something, Bruce?
Message:
Now that's the best one I've heard yet! Protects you from the evil witch, the mind? Knowledge? Get a fucking clue. Tried and untrue, I gave it a better shot than anything I've ever done in my life, and it does not protect you from any mind. By mind, I mean excessive thinking, worrying, troublesome emotion, disturbing thoughts, judgements, misplaced fears and anger, unhappiness, depression, anxiety... you name it, it doesn't cure it, heal it, or help it. It didn't do it for me, it didn't do it for the several hundred people I heard give satsang and blame themselves, and I don't believe it did it for the few who claimed it did. They were either pretending, or so cut off from themselves anyway, that they were mistaking being disconnected for divinity. This isn't to say there weren't great moments for most people, but they were sporadic, usually unpredictable, and impossible to maintain, given the absolutely shitty instructions that came from maharaji and the initiators.

I don't know much about the claims of maharaji's drinking, financial corruption, infidelity, or angry outbursts, but I do know a hell of a lot about the protection that knowledge offers from the mind. And you, my friend, haven't got a clue.
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Date: Tues, Apr 07, 1998 at 18:14:14 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: Rick, I'm not certain of this,
Message:
But I think P's tongue-in-cheek.
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Date: Tues, Apr 07, 1998 at 18:21:10 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Jim
Subject: Rick, I'm not certain of this,
Message:
Or else severely delusional...

(I DID know people who would say things like that - can't believe that they still do though!)
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Date: Tues, Apr 07, 1998 at 18:58:42 (EDT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Rick, I'm not certain of this,
Message:
No way, Jose.
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Date: Tues, Apr 07, 1998 at 19:29:16 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: Rick, I'm not certain of this,
Message:
Hey, you want to bet?

Go ahead, Katie, bet him.
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Date: Tues, Apr 07, 1998 at 20:05:28 (EDT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Rick, I'm not certain of this,
Message:
Jim,
There's something you are certain of that you're not saying. Mili said you were dishonest and I was certain he was wrong. Now come on and 'fess up. We're not into hiding anything around here. Especially after I stuck my foot in my mouth.
Rick
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Date: Tues, Apr 07, 1998 at 20:19:11 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: Rick, I'm not certain of this,
Message:
Rick,

What? I said I was UNcertain. That's UNcertain. I'm confused.

But only P can tell us if she/he/program was saying that stuff straight.

Where IS P anyway?

(Please don't say 'running down my leg' no matter how many years you've been waiting to say that.)
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Date: Tues, Apr 07, 1998 at 20:42:11 (EDT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Rick, I'm not certain of this,
Message:
Well then, Katie ain't betting, so I'll take you up on the bet. If I win, you send me that album that Mili wants so badly, and if you win I'll send you an Elan Vital magazine from '79. ???
Rick
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Date: Tues, Apr 07, 1998 at 21:21:53 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: Rick, I'm not certain of this,
Message:
I'm NOT sending the album. Forget it. I will send my own copy of late seventies Elan Vital or, if you prefer, a few Divine Times.

What I'd really like to get are some AIID's.
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Date: Tues, Apr 07, 1998 at 21:26:00 (EDT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Rick, I'm not certain of this,
Message:
Okay, a few Divine Times it is. Got no AIID's but I have an unnamed publication from UK ('78 or '79, sort of an English version of Elan Vital).
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Date: Tues, Apr 07, 1998 at 22:23:54 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: Rick, I'm not certain of this,
Message:
Alright, it's a bet. So now we've got to get P again.
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Date: Tues, Apr 07, 1998 at 23:03:08 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Rick
Subject: Rick, I'm not certain of this,
Message:
Rick, I'm sure glad I ain't betting, if that's what the stakes are!
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Date: Wed, Apr 08, 1998 at 01:20:29 (EDT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Rick, I'm not certain of this,
Message:
But Katie, it's a bit like betting the kitchen garbage. If you lose, you pack it up and send it off. If you win, Mili is totally irked that a good guruzine is going to waste. Sorry, I couldn't resist.
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Date: Wed, Apr 08, 1998 at 09:33:44 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Rick
Subject: Rick, I'm not certain of this,
Message:
Rick,
Bet or no, whether or not P was for real your response was poignant. I don't think P must be from an english speaking country or else is a real pisser!
Robyn
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Date: Mon, Apr 06, 1998 at 15:39:49 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Hardliner calling Bruce
Subject: Kanguru etc
Message:
Hey Bruce,

You said to Robyn:

Sure I can accept that. How can I not? It was your experience.

which leads me to ask if you think people can ever fool themselves about their 'experiences'?

Also, you seem to have no problem 'accepting' Robyn's explanation that M 'had nothing to do with HER experience.' What's this all about? Are you patronizing her? Do you just want to avoid trying to reconcile or discuss the discrepancy?

Whaddup, bro'?
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Date: Sun, Apr 05, 1998 at 16:36:20 (EDT)
From: CD
Email: webmaster@cdickey.com
To: Bruce
Subject: Kanguru etc
Message:
Bruce,

Thanks for the comments on the event in Australia.
There is a lot of diversity on this web forum.
Postings such as yours which present the positive side of M certainly show that there are 2 sides to this fascinating story.
I hope to see more postings on your experiences.

Regards,
CD
swam the Ganges in 72
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Date: Sun, Apr 05, 1998 at 17:22:55 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: What errors? Bruce? Chris?
Message:
Chris,

Posts such as Bruce's don't necessarily show that there are two sides to this 'fascinating story.' Bruce told us that the article was 'full of shit.' That's not a 'side' to any story, not yet anyway.

What we need is for your or Bruce to point out the errors in the story which, for those who haven't read it elsewhere on the site,
is right here:

MILLIONAIRE cult leader Maharaj Ji, (known to his followers as the 'Exploding Peace Bomb' and the 'Lord of the Universe'), has returned to Australia to recruit new followers. The guru is holding a secret brainstorming session on a former cattle property in remote bushland 60 km west of Brisbane all weekend.

Thousands of followers have set up a tent city on the property at the base of Ivory Rock, (a monolithic egg-shaped mountain), for the four-day session, which ends on Sunday. Maharaj Ji, (or Maharaji, as he is now known), is due to appear at a 4000 seat open-air auditorium at the meeting to enlighten devotees in the 'getting of Knowledge'.

In the early 1970's the guru became an international household name as the teen leader of the Divine Light Mission cult. When the cult was at its height, many of the followers or 'premies' lived in DLM houses or Ashrams and paid their entire salaries to the cult.

One former DLM member, Stephen Faulds, this week told the Courier-Mail that cult members would take out home loans and then all the occupants would pay off the mortgage. Former DLM president Robert Mishler, who has since left the cult, said that in the early 1970's DLM took more than $5 million from missions around the world.

The guru's latest gathering appears to be another money-spinner but under a different guise. Organizers expect up to 4000 'students' to attend the 'Elan Vital 1997 Conference' and a spokeswoman for Elan Vital claimed the guru was no longer associated with DLM. 'That is all in the past now,' said Ros Sutton, who claimed to have found 'Knowledge' with the guru 25 years ago.

Ms. Sutton said Maharaji had 'completely disassociated himself' from DLM. 'He (Maharaji) was very young at that time. It was when he was 13. He was promoted as being involved with the organization (DLM),' she said. 'But since then, because of the strong Indian connotations, he has completely disassociated himself from that organization. What he teaches is not religion.'

Australian Securities Commission records show the registered company Divine Light Mission Inc. changed its name to Elan Vital in the late 1980's. In 1992, Elan Vital registered the name Ivory Rock Convention Centre, where the meeting is being held, and is currently marketing it as a conference venue. Security officers at the front gate this week were stopping cars, and followers manned checkpoints on roads inside the property.

Ms. Sutton declined to say the source of Maharaji's income. 'That is private,' she said, as was Maharaji's location and time of arrival, according to Ms. Sutton. But according to Hawker Pacific's Brisbane office, which services corporate jets, the guru jetted into Australia on the weekend in his Gulf Stream jet, valued at between $20 to $30 million. A Hawker Pacific employee said Maharaji arrived under the name of Captain Rowatt and his family flew in on a commercial flight.

The luxury twin-engine jet is just part of the incredible life of luxury of the cult leader. Locals living around the conference centre were baffled at the activity. Vegetable farmer Lucien Stelet said: 'They don't do any harm but there's been a few rumors about what they're doing. One theory was that they were digging tunnels.'

In 1974 the 16 year old Maharaji caused a split in the cult when he married a 24 year old air hostess. The marriage sparked a massive internecine feud, with Maharaji's mother trying to sack him as leader. But his worldwide status enabled him to remain a dominant force. During his reign, he was hailed by his followers as a living god and acquired the title of the 'Exploding Peace Bomb'.

In one bizarre festival, he sprayed swooning devotees with pink colored water from a giant water pistol. It is believed he now lives in a Malibu mansion with his wife and children. The cult boasts a website titled 'Premie' and lists a series of worldwide events where devotees can catch up with Maharaji as well as messages of love from followers to their revered guru. But on an 'ex-premie' web page, The Courier-Mail found numerous allegations that the cult had shattered people's lives.

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Date: Sun, Apr 05, 1998 at 18:33:33 (EDT)
From: CD
Email: webmaster@cdickey.com
To: Jim
Subject: What is important?
Message:
> Jim says: 'Bruce told us that the article was 'full of shit.' That's not a 'side' to any story, not yet anyway. '

The emphasis of the article was a bit misguided.
It does contain a few tidbits of fact but missed the main points.
It certainly did not portray the positive aspects of the event.
Bruce offered some first hand views of the event.
I am glad that he provided that balance to the viewers of this site.

>'The guru's latest gathering appears to be another money-spinner but under a different guise. '

What is this BS?
A bunch of people went to an event in Australia and most had a great time.
Yes, it does cost money to put on an event.
Got a problem with that?

>'The luxury twin-engine jet is just part of the incredible life of luxury of the cult leader.'

Apparently M uses the plane to travel around the world to events that many thousands of people enjoy attending.
I personally am glad that the events happen.
I support the events and the plane by donating money.
I will be attending events in Miami and Wembley very soon.
Got a problem with that?

>'They don't do any harm but there's been a few rumors about what they're doing. One theory was that they were digging tunnels.'

How interesting. Right up your rumour alley Jim - g!

How about: They do seem to be having a great time!

>'In one bizarre festival, he sprayed swooning devotees with pink colored water from a giant water pistol. '

I must enjoy the bizarre.
Give me a Holi festival any day - g!
The last one I went to had many colors of water, glitter, laser beams, fireworks and music.
Yeah, the crowd did make a bit of a racket!
But the business owners in Miami Beach welcomed the multicolored glitter covered attendees who were hungry for a bite to eat and music after the water cannon extravaganza.
The 'Like the Rain' video has some great shots.
Talk about fun!

Optimism rules!

Cheers,
CD
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Date: Sun, Apr 05, 1998 at 20:17:07 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: What is important?
Message:
Replying to:

>'The guru's latest gathering appears to be another money-spinner but under a different guise.'

Chris said:

What is this BS?
A bunch of people went to an event in Australia and most had a great time.
Yes, it does cost money to put on an event.
Got a problem with that?


Chris,

Do you think M made a profit at this program?

If so, how much? I'm sure it costs money to stage an 'event'. But how much? Are these figures you or any other premie would ahve access to? No? Ever wonder why not?
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Date: Mon, Apr 06, 1998 at 11:33:00 (EDT)
From: CD
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: What is important?
Message:
>Do you think M made a profit at this program?

Jim,

No.
I have heard that connecting up the Amaroo site to the municipal water system alone cost several hundred thousand $.
Here is a more recent example.
I signed up for the 3 day May 98 Miami event.
The suggested fee was $25.
The event hall at the convention center has to be rented for at least 3 days.
And, on the registration form it was very clearly stated that the fee was not mandatory.

I do understand somewhat why you get involved trying to figure out lots of the issues about M.
If you consider the money issue carefully you will find that it is really an inconsequential issue in the M and K discussion.

The events are supported and happen because people want to attend them.

There is even an upcoming event near where you live.

Rock on,
CD
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Date: Mon, Apr 06, 1998 at 11:46:44 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: What is important?
Message:
Chris,

You talk about expenses. What about income. And what about the secondary income (i.e. on-site and post-event donations, merchandise sales, etc.)?
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Date: Mon, Apr 06, 1998 at 12:33:32 (EDT)
From: Mr Ex
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Asking for the budgets?
Message:
Are you awake Jim?

Do you really think you'll get EV's budgets from premies
on the Internet?

As for Miami, the renting of the hall doesn't cost much,
it might be for free.
There are quite some expenses for AV equipment renting (even though EV very likely owns most of it), additional seats in the arena. Building of the stage.
Half of the budget is very likely for the 'principal's' reception,
Mr Rawat's hotel suites, etc
Royalties paid to Visions for the videos shown during the event (as much as possible, usual policy).
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Date: Mon, Apr 06, 1998 at 13:51:11 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Mr Ex
Subject: Asking for the budgets?
Message:
Can't hurt to ask. Rhetorically at least?
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Date: Mon, Apr 06, 1998 at 12:33:08 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: CD
Subject: What is important?
Message:
CD,
I am sure you've seen Mr. Ex's post conserning EV's financial discrepencies. How could these have nothing to do with M and K. How can and why would a perfect master, or an honest meditation teacher for that matter conduct illegal finacial pursuits? If M needs money shouldn't he trust his Guru M to give him grace? The other part of the financial picture that has an extremely valid place in these discussions is the fact that premies do 'service', working for low wages at EV owned businesses with profits going to M or work/ed for free on big projects, ie: the 707 or residences for their Lord who then sees fit to disgard their 'gifts of labor' as he decided not to keep the plane and he belittles premies who work for him or even those who only devote their lives to him. I never had a particular problem with M because I was more focused on the meditation but since getting envolved with this site I find his actions and reactions to questions, inquires, hard times to be totally undivine and unkind.
I saw on 60 Minutes last night, a story on Willy Brown, DA Mayor of LA, I believe it was. He is a charismatic personality and I know I knew nothing of him before this report and it was just one report but I thought that he could have abused his power but instead leads his life as he sees fit, whether that life style is approved of is not the issue. What is at issue is that he lives it honestly and has been investigated by many federal agencies who all found nothing. He keeps himself honest in business and his personal life and as such lives up to his position. I don't feel the same sentiment toward Guru M.
Robyn
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Date: Mon, Apr 06, 1998 at 13:07:48 (EDT)
From: CD
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: What is important?
Message:
>I am sure you've seen Mr. Ex's post conserning EV's financial discrepencies.

Mr. Ex has 0.01 credibility.
Do you know that what he says is factual or important?
What the heck does Mr. Ex know about financials?
How to pay his rent and gas and electric bill?
All I have seen presented so far is a lame misinformation campaign.
Who is this 'notorius' Mr. Ex?
At least Jim Heller has the guts to be himself.

What are 'EV's financial discrepencies' ?
I donate and got my official tax info form back from EV.
I have no problem supporting EV activities.
The people that do support EV are interested in doing so.

Regards,
CD
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Date: Mon, Apr 06, 1998 at 18:47:46 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: CD
Subject: What is important?
Message:
Dear CD,
I read Mr. Ex's post on the questionable finances of EV. They seemed factual but no, I haven't seen legal documents to state the same but why do you not believe him other than the fact that you are a premie? Do you have proff to the contrary? Please let me know. I do not speak of contributions but of using the charitable tax status illegally in business ventures to fund M's lifestyle.
Mr. Ex has stated his reasons for using a pseudo name and they are good enough for me. Even if he gave no reason that, IMHO, shouldn't have anything to do with a poster to this forum's validity. Why do you feel the way you do about Mr. Ex. I sence you think he is lying, why would he go through all that trouble. For that matter we could all be lying.
Robyn
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Date: Mon, Apr 06, 1998 at 20:55:12 (EDT)
From: NV
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: What is important?
Message:
Robyn

EV activities are scrutinized by the IRS more closely than you can imagine through regular and frequent audits. This is true for most not-for-profit organizations, and especially those where there is the potential for controversy like Elan Vital.

I have been involved over the years in discussions with key people who oversee the organization's accounting, and have heard that accolades are regularily given by auditors for the cleanliness and clarity of the EV books. I think you can be assured given the profile past and current of the organization that if there was anything illegal going on, it would be discovered by the US Government by now.

NV
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Date: Mon, Apr 06, 1998 at 22:14:48 (EDT)
From: new vine
Email: ftyguhij
To: NV
Subject: What is important?
Message:
How about the soliciting of funds at local and renew vinegional events
for m and his personal wants like the house and extra land
purchase at the house and the requests for money to be sent
to him as gifts? The irs made the deal with him that
he could not solicite the gifts. On the condition that
the money was sent without a request is why his
personal money was not taxed. THAT is the area that is
decietful that they might have an interest in.
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Date: Mon, Apr 06, 1998 at 23:19:29 (EDT)
From: NV
Email: None
To: new vine
Subject: What is important?
Message:
Information at regional/local events regarding financial support is ONLY made for Elan Vital related items. EV related activities include programs, his program related transportation and lodging, conference centre development, etc. Sorry I don't know for sure the intimate details of how his personal finances work.

NV
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Date: Tues, Apr 07, 1998 at 00:22:37 (EDT)
From: bill
Email: ftvgbhn
To: NV
Subject: What is important?truth
Message:
not true.
his personal money for his home and spending cash are
requested at MANY local/regional events.
Maybe you should check with the lazy,stupid inconsiderate staff.
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Date: Tues, Apr 07, 1998 at 22:31:15 (EDT)
From: NV
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: What is important?truth
Message:
I don't have to refer to 'lazy and inconsiderate staff' I've been there and have never in the last 15 years heard anyone solicit for personal funds. I'm just going to have to call you on this one Bill - you're full of shit.

NV
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Date: Tues, Apr 07, 1998 at 09:53:53 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: NV
Subject: What is important?
Message:
NV,

Sorry I don't know for sure the intimate details of how his
personal finances work.

Precisely, why you shouldn't defend him.
Robyn
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Date: Tues, Apr 07, 1998 at 22:33:38 (EDT)
From: NV
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: What is important?
Message:
Robyn

And what justification do you have for attacking him? Cer6tainly no facts.
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Date: Tues, Apr 07, 1998 at 01:05:24 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: NV
Subject: What is important?
Message:
I don't think it was EV that Mr. Ex was talking about. I think it was Swiss corporations that he was talking about.

I do hope EV has gotten its books cleaned up. There was a BIG problem with the old DLM in that regard. I mean the problem of funneling money from a non-profit for Maharji's personal use.
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Date: Tues, Apr 07, 1998 at 12:59:02 (EDT)
From: CD
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: What is important?
Message:
>They seemed factual but no, I haven't seen legal documents to state the same but why do you not believe him other than the fact that you are a premie?
> I do not speak of contributions but of using the charitable tax status illegally in business ventures to fund M's lifestyle.

Robyn,

Let Mr. Ex present his case clearly, accurately and without the veil of anonymity.
So far his presentation approach has only served to discredit him.
It has the virtual odor of disgruntled rumour concerning petty issues.
True, there could be something to what he has to say.
But, he needs to get his act in order if he wants to do something positive.
And, he needs to focus on issues that really are important without exaggeration.

CD
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Date: Tues, Apr 07, 1998 at 13:21:44 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: CD
Subject: What is important?
Message:
CD,
I don't understand why you feel so strongly about Mr. Ex identifying himself. It is fine to be and stay anonymous on the forum. He has his reasons and who are any of us to dispute them. I don't think it has anything to do with what he has to say. I do not agree with your negative opinions of his presentation and I wonder why you haven't addressed my request to present your case as to M's honesty in his business life. Don't let Mr. Ex's presentation stop you from proving him wrong.
Robyn
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Date: Tues, Apr 07, 1998 at 13:36:04 (EDT)
From: Mr Ex
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: FACTS ARE IMPORTANT!
Message:
I for one, have presented facts.

So far, NO PREMIE has ever sent ANY detail over
EV's finances, instructorship, Mr Rawat's private conferences
with instructors/organizers, etc

I don't believe none of you ever participated in these.

As for me staying anonymous, I have VERY GOOD REASONS.

The fact I'd give you my name and e-mail won't change a single
thing. I know you're pissed off after me, like many other
premies.

Could you please honestly say what YOU think about me?

I'm all ears.
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Date: Tues, Apr 07, 1998 at 16:48:16 (EDT)
From: CD
Email: None
To: Mr Ex
Subject: What kind of facts?
Message:
>As for me staying anonymous, I have VERY GOOD REASONS.
>I know you're pissed off after me, like many other
premies. Could you please honestly say what YOU think about me?

Ex,

I am not pissed off at you believe it or not.
Not at all.

I don't think you have done a good job of presenting your case.
And as I have said many times, some of the stuff you and some of the other people bring up is suprisingly petty.
At other times there is strange behaviours such as paranoia, wild hypothesis and calls for revenge.
Not a particularly credible public image.

There is also the fact that different people seem to have wildly different experiences even at the same M event or talk.
I certainly have had varying types of impressions myself.

My point is to offer some opinions which differ from yours on this site.
All is not gloom and evil in M land.
There is also a lot of joy and positive inspiration that people have found in the teachings of M, practising K and going to events over the years.
The event schedule for this year seems quite extensive.
I do not see the baggy eyes of M that others on this site rant about.
I will see for myself in Miami, Wembley and Anahiem.

I certainly don't know enough about you to make a call on what I really think about you.
You are pretty secretive after all.
Hope things work out for you and you enjoy yourself and can be a positive influence on others.

Regards,
CD
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Date: Mon, Apr 06, 1998 at 19:11:18 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: What is important?
Message:
Chris,

I am sympathetic to your complaint about pseudonyms. However, in Mr. Ex's case, it is misplaced. That's his name, Chris. I know, I've met his ex-wife and, in fact, his entire ex-tended family.

Now isn't THAT a bad joke? Come on, Chris, answer my question or are you chickening out here too? It IS a bad joke, isn't it? God what's wrong with you people? (You don't have to answer that. It wasn't directed at you, anyway.)

Chris, seriously now, why do you say Ex has 1% credibility? Plese back that up or give it up. Fair is fair. What misinformation do you say he's presented? I'm sure you won't make the mistake of confusing negative information from that which is simply wrong. I'm also sure you won't allow yourself to dismiss any of his info before knowing that it is, in fact, wrong.
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Date: Mon, Apr 06, 1998 at 21:45:57 (EDT)
From: CD
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: This is information?
Message:
>Chris, seriously now, why do you say Ex has 1% credibility? Plese back that up or give it up. Fair is fair. What misinformation do you say he's presented?

Jim,

You are most likely a competent lawyer.
Would you build a court case with Mr. Ex's 'information'?
Not unless you are an ambulance chaser.
Its a pitiful case so far.
So far you are not even doing as well as Mr. Starr.
If you guys can do better then I will raise your credibility rating.

It is amazing how quickly people will believe rumours.
I can't believe how petty some of the issues you guys are focusing on are.
Your public image is starting to suffer.
You are becoming a bullhorn guy on a corner, not a leader.
Get your act together for your own sake.

Good luck,
CD
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Date: Mon, Apr 06, 1998 at 22:16:22 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: This is information?
Message:
Chris,

You didn't answer my questions. You talked around them. Why not just tell me how you know Mr. Ex has no credibility and how you know he's peddling misinformation?

I say Mr. Ex has decent credibility because he is, after all, our only resident ex-instructor. Plus, I've gotten to know him a bit in email and find him apparently trustworthy. Plus, his stories make a lot of sense to me. What do you find so far-fetched? Plus I too was there to some limited degree. As treasurer of one community and one ashram for a while I know how we were always trying to give Maharaji secret money.

So, please, what's the basis of your complaint?
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Date: Wed, Apr 08, 1998 at 05:46:08 (EDT)
From: Mirabai
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: This is information?
Message:
*still trying to get a message in the forum*.
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Date: Wed, Apr 08, 1998 at 08:53:40 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Mirabai
Subject: This is a test
Message:
I'm going to repost something from yesterday, only enclosed in asterisks.

*It can be argued that both sides in the debate demonstrate need


Fair enough. Different kind of need though.
It clearly is not fair therefore to assess a degree of validity inversely proportionate to their length of stay with M.


Well, I think this is well put. In fact, one's need to believe might in some cases actually diminish with time. Nonetheless I am perplexed by the inability to deal directly with information that appears quite authentic. Like Bruce, I was steeped in the notion that Mishler left because he had been involved in a losing power struggle. However, reading his account at this stage in my own journey gave me some additional points of comparison. He does not sound much like a disgruntled employee. His observations seem based on sound sociology. He is skeptical of the Christiam message for similar reasons (although he reserves judgement for the present case where he has first hand knowledge).

At Amherst I began to hear about Maharji drinking, but even at that time it was not couched in negative terms. We were led to believe that he had been influenced or 'seduced' by these nefarious Mishler-related folks. The accounts I heard were not first hand, but they were definitely second-hand. I was around the residence, as were the people who told me this rather surpising bit of news. The 'seduction' scenario just never made sense, but I never tried to resolve it until much later. In other words, I believe it to some extent because it is triangulated, and it fits with other information about his behavior. His treatment of Jeff Peas for instance.

Finally, the research of David Lane really created a new level of cognitive dissonance in my belief system about MJ. Maharaji was hardly mentioned in this research, which described the traditions involved in and associated with Knowledge (called Shabd Yoga) in great detail. The fact that Shri Hans' mission is such a minor player, not only in Lane's account, but in terms of the numbers of followers in the direct lineage caused me to write Lane a few letters for clarification. Together we came up with the idea of the 'flawed master' outlined in the Apologia above. Maharaji is not on his list of nefarious Gurus. He just is not important. Lane consider's Paul Twitchell a much more sinister figure, who as the EK master (no relation to our Mr. Ex) gave the same techniques which were experienced in the same way, at least according to the account of those who practiced. So, if it is not Knowledge, virtuosity, or virtue that sets Maharaji apart what is it?

My conclusion was not based on 'need' to believe, it was based on 'need' to get straight with the facts. My shift was reluctant and decidedly uncomfortable. That too should be regarded as 'data.' It was based on the need to be realistic, so that my life wasn't following ghosts. As far as I know I only have one.

Do I make sense? *

-Scott
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Date: Wed, Apr 08, 1998 at 10:15:45 (EDT)
From: Mirabai
Email: None
To: Mirabai
Subject: This is information
Message:
*Will it work now?*.
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Date: Mon, Apr 06, 1998 at 13:12:10 (EDT)
From: JW -- Da Mayor
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: What is important?
Message:
Robyn, great post. But one correction. Willie Brown is the mayor of San Francisco, not the mayor of LA, but I agree with the 60 Minutes repor -- he's a really good, and effective mayor, in my opinion.
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Date: Mon, Apr 06, 1998 at 13:56:10 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: JW -- Da Mayor
Subject: What is important?
Message:
And I would add that he is only Mayor, rather than Speaker of the California House, due to term limits.
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Date: Mon, Apr 06, 1998 at 17:45:19 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: What is important?
Message:
You could also add that the only reason we HAVE term limits in California, was because it was the only way to get Wille Brown out as Speaker.

Now every two terms, we have 'musical chairs' as representatives jump from the house to the senate, to attorney general, to congress, etc., etc.

It also means that the 'institutional memory' of the legislature has gotten very short and lobbyists, being the only people staying in place for very long, have more power than ever.

Yes, it's a great system. But we did get good mayor out of it.
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Date: Mon, Apr 06, 1998 at 13:59:31 (EDT)
From: Bruce
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: What is important?
Message:
Robyn,
I think you are treating erroneous information as fact,
and reacting to false information.
This is a common occurrence on this forum
Bruce
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Date: Mon, Apr 06, 1998 at 14:06:45 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Bruce
Subject: What is important?
Message:
Bruce:

I suppose you don't have the time to falsify these erroneous facts...?

-Scott
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Date: Mon, Apr 06, 1998 at 19:14:15 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Bruce
Subject: to Bruce
Message:
Dear Bruce,
Did I miss your response to my question conserning your statement that you are not devoted to M as a physical being, I can't remember the rest but I then said to you that I could accept that but what were you dovoted to M about, was it that you feel without him you would have no meditation experience as his grace is a requirement. If I haven't gotten to your message yet just diregard this one. Thanks.
Robyn
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Date: Tues, Apr 07, 1998 at 20:37:43 (EDT)
From: Bruce
Email: None
To: Jim and expremie org
Subject: Errors in Kanguru article
Message:
Jim and others,

II was mistaken in claiming that it was 'up to the ceiling in bullshit'.on further study I'll amend that to
'up to the picture rail in BS' as there are are a few correct statements. The BS is for you Paula, as clearly anyone saying bullshit is not connected to a divine experience, right?

The main BS is that the article is about 25 years out of date. Obvious as that should be, it may not be so to ex's on
this forum who clearly are living in a 70's time warp. We would have been annoyed by this article way back then. In 1997
this is preposterous. Mishler,20 years dead, is quoted as though he's just been interviewed!
A few details;
Nobody refers to M. as Exploding Peace Bomb nor Lord of the Universe . Some did way back, I never did. I enjoyed singing the song though. We don't see ourselves as followers either.
Recruiting new followers? Since this event was open only to people who had already been shown the techniques,more BS
Remote bushland and monolithic egg shaped mountain? this land is 50km from the CBD and there are housing subdivisions one minutes drive from the property! Ivory's rock is a rock. There are
numerous smallpeaks in the area.
Then there are numerous examples of ahrams etc, all of which has nothing to do with how things ACTUALLY ARE NOW. and
only ever represented a tiny minority of premies..
Some responses to ex's comments I received;
No, I'm not at all embarassed by M's plane. Its obviously necessary for his role as a teacher. Those who complain have clearly not done much travelling. Do you expext him to spend half his life in airport waiting lounges? It also shows how together he is. Family not good enough to travel with him? He flew in from the Asian region.. Is is supposed to go home to pick them up from the States? Get real. I don't see it as a toy, and niether does he. Mostly he is exhausted by the amount of travelling he does.

Despite your apparent denial, JIm, blind Freddy can see that this
despicable newspaper article's main source of 70's BS, was your website,and you and your band now have to accept responsibility for the' real damage in people's lives' it has provoked, and in ways which none of you can ever predict.

How ironic that the group who sets themselves up as an avenger
of ' hurts' to premies in a situation they freely chose, now could create a much greater harm to a much larger number of premies, many of which went through exactly the same conditions as you but DO NOT feel we have been ripped off, and certainly are not choosing you to bat for us.

This is serious and there is more.

Please don't expect an immediate response as Life calls. Also, I
am not interested in responding to people who have patronising,
obnoxious views of long term premies. Thats you I suspect, Scott.
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Date: Tues, Apr 07, 1998 at 20:48:23 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Bruce
Subject: Taking Bruce uptown
Message:
Bruce,

First, thanks for saving me from talking about couches. Second, if you don't mind, I'm taking your post up to the top - partly to save JW from talking about couches.

Jim
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Date: Sun, Apr 05, 1998 at 17:01:22 (EDT)
From: CD
Email: None
To: Bruce
Subject: Kanguru etc
Message:
Bruce,

Is this your email address?

phoenix@b024.net.au

I tried to send you a message but it was returned.

CD
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Date: Sun, Apr 05, 1998 at 18:08:29 (EDT)
From: Bruce
Email: phoenix@b024.aone.net.au
To: Everyone
Subject: Kanguru etc Email correction
Message:
I left out a bit in my Email address.
Pardon me.
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Date: Sun, Apr 05, 1998 at 18:13:04 (EDT)
From: bill
Email: gbhfoijejg
To: Bruce
Subject: Kanguru etc
Message:
Hello Bruce,

If m was just showing a method of passing time by trying
to feel your breath I would still be intersted perhaps.

But for 25 years he pretended to be the lord and I finally
woke up to the fact that he has led me on all these years.

He comes from the buddihst/hindu/guru tradition where it is
ok for someone to pretend to be god to his followers and
thereby giving them the 'lord in form' fantasy to have in
thier life.

Do you know the story of buddha? He badly mispercieved life
and influenced millions to think that this life was a place
of suffering and the only way out was to deny your self
and try and leave the clutches of this awful life in as few
lifetimes as you could manage.

Kind of insulting to the creator don't you think?
Contrary to that, a kind loving power put us here to enjoy
and marvel at this amazing life.

prem rawat(maharaji) thinks that there is no god but that there
is just some 'energy' and the self-proclaimed master is
here to tell you how to merge.

The flaws in his thinking include: That it is ok to pretend to
be the lord of the universe.
That even though WE are concious, the 'Energy' has neither
conciousness or personality.
We are to worship the guru as lord.
HE is NOT god incarnate.
What do YOU think of the fact that he banished his mom from his
life for 18 years till she finally died?
Is this the action of the lord of the universe?
Or of a pretender?

There IS no god but himself. Think about that.
Watch the videos a little closer and really try to see
what he is truly like.
For many years I just kept makeing excuses for many things
about his behaviour.

Did you ever know Bill Patterson? Or Jim Hession?
They were two devotees that you and I could never be.
Top shelf effort they made and they took prem rawat
at his word for the seventies and early years.
THEY HAD to leave him because they were close enough to see
how he really was and though they gave him the same benefit
of the doubt you and I have in smaller measure, rawat burned
them down painfully out of thier illusion that he was ANYTHING.

The truth is a long sordid story and only because of your
distance from him have you been able to see his occasional
theater and maintain the illusion that he is god.

What have you seen on the back of your eyelids?
Did it top looking at a tree?

What did you hear inside?
Was it better than crickets?

Did you ever experience something with your tongue back?
I hope you will answer honestly.

We are only here to discuss what is the facts. None of us
were happy to find out the truth about him.
Some spent a decade in ashrams.
Some spent 25 years listening to a guy pretend to be god. Do
you remember what he said in the 90's?
He said to remember him at the moment of death!

Now I know you kissed his feet recently but just because
he is so brazenly doing the hindu guru trip does not mean
that he is not caught in a fraud. He was driven to do the
guru trip since he was little and even though he knows he isn't
god he can't let go of the trip because he is deluded by the
concept that there is no god anyway but just this 'energy'.

WE don't need to try to love god through a idol.
WE can try to make this whole theater of divine land with
lord but it is a facade and this little web site is not some
evil from hell but some people who were victimized by a
hindu guru trip and we a sounding the alarm to whomever
listens.
He deserves to be actively opposed.
There is no wisdom letting someone march a 'I am lord'
trip across the planet unopposed when he most certainly
is not the lord.
America has had MANY hindu guru trips that blew up in the
followers faces. I am unfortunately one of those.
I trusted him completely and he has betrayed my trust with
his delusion. Maybe you could grant him some innocence when
he was young, but he has long since known he wasn't god.
And that he is in fact just like anyone else.
No special powers, No love for his own mom, No love for YOU.
bill
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Date: Sun, Apr 05, 1998 at 21:10:43 (EDT)
From: David
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: bill
Subject: The father/son God
Message:
Bill; my doubts about Maharaji began when I realised that he worshipped his deceased Father, Shri Hans. Throughout the seventies whenever Maharaji talked about his Father, it began to dawn on me that when Maharaji spoke about God, he meant his Father. He would use the term Guru Maharaj Ji to either mean himself in the third person or his father.

He would talk about Guru Maharaj Ji's grace on him, how that grace of his father had made him the Lord of the Universe. I began to see that Maharaji had no concept of a God other than his own father. This caused me grave doubts. First because if Maharaji was God, why did he need to have his father as his guru? And secondly, even when I accepted that perhaps God had come in human form and worshipped his dead father as an example to us all, why did Maharaji only talk of God as Guru Maharaj Ji? For years I tried to accept this father/son God in human form duo and believed that it was something to divine for me to understand with my rational mind.

It really was only recently that I realised that I was trying to make a simple Hindu succession principal into something it was not. i.e. it was not God. Once I took away the God in human form bit, it all became clear to me last year. Maharaji does not consider God but considers guru as being of prime importance. His guru is his father. His deceased father is of the utmost importance to him. His father's agya, to spread the 'knowlege' to the west is Maharaji's job in life. It is an expansion of the family business. Consequently, Maharaji considers himself blameless and beyond reproach because he is still carrying out his father's agya. He answers to nobody but his deceased father. He does not feel answerable to God because in the Hindu belief, his father is God.

In the west we will find it difficult to unravel or even comprehend this eastern Hindu way of thinking. It is alien to us. Also we have applied our concepts of a God onto a Hindu family's God succession system. Small wonder then that there is a complete lack of understanding between ex-premies and Maharaji. He doesn't understand what he has done wrong and believes he has every right to do as he does while the ex-premies naturally feel agrieved, that their God turned out to be a small family business.
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Date: Mon, Apr 06, 1998 at 00:41:59 (EDT)
From: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: David
Subject: The father/son God
Message:
David,

I don't really want to argue with you about this theory which obviously means a lot to you, but let me just say that I've heard Maharaji say several times that the fact that his father was also his guru is purely incidental.
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Date: Wed, Apr 08, 1998 at 05:21:58 (EDT)
From: Mirabai
Email: None
To: Mili
Subject: The father/son God
Message:
* I am new to forum and just seeing if my message goes in*
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Date: Mon, Apr 06, 1998 at 00:51:13 (EDT)
From: bill
Email: yujrtgfjuyhtg
To: David
Subject: deciever
Message:
You are correct except I think that he doesn't consider himself
blameless and beyond reproach.

He has had great doubts and grief and regrets also.
He has admitted to being imprisoned by fear and anger and
doubt and darkness and greed. I figured the 'darkness'
reference was about lust. Just a guess.

But as I watched his midlife crisis unfold on video, he
made the wrong decision. He has clearly decided to go full
speed ahead back into the I am god trip.

Driven by his history, ego, greed(excuseing it as 'high
standards'), driven by his need to (mistakenly)
thinking that he can redeem himself somehow of banishing his
mom for 18 years by convincing the world he is the lord we
have been waiting for. And also his father had showed the 4
boys a bundle of sticks and said 'if you stay together you
will be stronger and the world cant break you apart'.
So the little lord breaks the family apart and now feels
guilty about it. Part of the mid life crisis.

He probably has all kinds of ideas now of what he should have
done with all us when we were all marching like soldiers
in complete obedience to him. (except Mili, who was fucking off in
croatia takeing it easy). He somehow missed the draft call.

Now he has to daydream about the once mighty army of total
zealots that he abused and lost. The once proud army
of completely dedicated idealists has been reduced to recieving
more of his abuse as he (probably, although I haven't
researched it yet,) hides as 'premie' and bereates us
as people who were responsible for our own decision to
waste our time with him and that there was no severe
fraud lord demanding our total surrender.

He knows there are a lot of people with a lot of personal
dirt on him and he was quite mean to a lot of people and
now with this international forum the cows will eventually
come home and this must frighten him.

When he was on the forum as student (I believe), I was
slightly open to him showing me that he was becoming human.
Well he quickly destroyed that with his comments about
his excuses for rage and also his view on god and master.

He just REALLY helped me out with that.

Mili would NEVER make it on rawats staff. You can't be a man
around rawat. HE is the lord/god/guru/master and you are just
a worker bee and everthing is for him. Your only benefit
possible is whatever you can squeeze out of adoring him.
And doing what he wants. It is total domination.

I wonder what NV stands for by the way, New Vine perhaps?
The name of the girl his brothers wife gave birth too?
Nav Lata? NaVi? It doesn't sound like her but the NV is
a curious choice.

I have a room full of ideas, but I have decided that the most
effective one is to contact old premies and ask them to
be responsible and tell thier stories. Why should anyone
find that objectionable?

The gospels of rawat.
Whatever legacy he has should come to the surface.
Would god object to that? Wacky religions form every day and
there is no need to hide the glory of maharaji and the
experiences of his former instructors and staff is reflective
of his radiant glory.

the lord of the universe has come to us today.
No need to battle, let the truth emerge and shine.

He hasn't mentioned his father in years by the way
except at amaroo in 93 or 94 where he blurted out another
story of his father abuseing someone. I will get the video
and post the story. I remember it mostly but I will get
the exact words.
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Date: Mon, Apr 06, 1998 at 16:29:45 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: Great idea, Bill
Message:
I have a room full of ideas, but I have decided that the most
effective one is to contact old premies and ask them to
be responsible and tell thier stories. Why should anyone
find that objectionable?


Bill, I think this is a great idea. I think it was also worthwhile, your pointing out how 'unfit' Mili would be to serve the man. (Mili, take that as a compliment. That's how it was intended.)

Jim
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Date: Mon, Apr 06, 1998 at 03:56:38 (EDT)
From: chr
Email: None
To: David
Subject: The father/son God
Message:
Actually,I'm not sure about M being caught up in all this Hindi/Indian stuff.Back in 1972 ,before I received K,I had a friend who was a follower of Charan Singh,the then guru of the Radha Soami group.I went along to some of their satsangs and they encouraged intellectual discussion on a wide range of topics.They showed respect for and interest in other spiritual paths-certainly there was not even a hint of claiming that their guru was the only way or the one perfect master.The radha S group have built hospitals and are known for their work with the poor.Much the same can be said of Yogananda.He didnt create a personality cult,spoke on a wide range of topics,and emphasised God.Ms way doing things seems to have more to do with western personality cults than any Indian tradition.
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Date: Mon, Apr 06, 1998 at 21:25:34 (EDT)
From: satguroovy
Email: ghj
To: chr
Subject: The father/son God
Message:
Hmmm, you sound right on that one.
personality cult with a background of the hindu/guru
theology.
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Date: Mon, Apr 06, 1998 at 08:30:58 (EDT)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: David
Subject: The father/son God
Message:
Bob Mishler talked about MJ pranaming before his father's picture when he was freaking out about backing away from divinity.

I know what you mean about him being caught up in playing out the role. Too bad the Ex-Lord never figured out the purpose of his life. He's left with telling people that guru-worship is their reason for living, while his is deader than Millennium. It's not easy being Sadguru.
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Date: Mon, Apr 06, 1998 at 08:59:12 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: The father/son God
Message:
Brian:

Excellent management of the compulsion to waste words. 'Sadguru' says it all.

-Scott
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Date: Mon, Apr 06, 1998 at 02:33:17 (EDT)
From: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: bill
Subject: Kanguru etc
Message:
Bill,

Have you ever heard of the saying, 'You can have your cake and eat it, too'? Well, it's true. You can close your eyes and open them, too. It's fun either way!
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Date: Mon, Apr 06, 1998 at 12:50:01 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Mili
Subject: The complexities of English
Message:
Mili,
The saying is not: 'You can have your cake and eat it to.'
The saying is: 'You can't have your cake and eat it to.'
I know you just didn't realize but I find it FUN that you used it to prove your point when it really dis-proves it!
Robyn
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Date: Mon, Apr 06, 1998 at 21:39:01 (EDT)
From: satguru dev MILI ki jai!
Email: drftyguh
To: Mili
Subject: Kanguru etc
Message:
Gee I slipped up and read one of your posts and at least
it was cheerful. .com and all that.

YOU should have been the satguru.
A more open cheerful lord without all the insane baggage
would have made for at least a better total waste of time.

Do you want the title satguroovy?
Probabaly be to sacriligious perhaps.

Of course you know cake an eat it too has NEVER been
his advice to us. That is how HE lived, but not for the servants!

No Compromise! Fury for the stupid lazy inconsiderate servants!

Bhole shri satguru dev MILI ki jai!
You would look good in a crown. Just don't wear it out in the
streets of your town!
The mala might be nice for mountain attire!
Breeze blowing up the skirt-refreshing!
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Date: Mon, Apr 06, 1998 at 12:44:07 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: bill
Subject: Jim Hession-Bill
Message:
Dear Bill,
I was so suprized to see you mention Jim. I lived with he, his wife and their oldest son, Jeremy when he was just a toddler. Now he has a toddler of his own. I recieved email from someone on the forum because they knew of Jim and I mentioned him in my journey entry. He is my oldest daughter's uncle on her father's side. I don't know the details of his leaving DLM except for my own assumtions knowing some of the things he went through as a DLM employee, close enough to M to have thier children attend each others birthday parties. We lost contact with them for years and it has only been 4 years now that they have reconnected with my daughter Jessica who they are flying out to see them at the end of this month. He is a successful business man. I never really connected with him but did enjoy Susan. I have not asked any of them about their breaking away from the cult but am becoming more and more curious since becoming a participant here on the forum.
Robyn
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Date: Mon, Apr 06, 1998 at 22:05:49 (EDT)
From: bill
Email: rhjkuhijk
To: Robyn
Subject: wowee-zowee
Message:
Thank you for makeing my search easy!

I will e-mail you a letter for him.
He knew me.
He worked for IBM and maybe he still does.
CD is microsoft enabled.
Jim orchestrated the atlantic city program in 76.
At least until m arrived and then m sent word that he was
running the event now.
jim ran DECA in miami and was truly a devotee.
He called m 'dad'
I would always flinch at that because I had a dad and alchohol
was his companion. So I stuck with 'satguru' which was the
way I liked to call m. If only he WAS the lord.
It was fun pretending for a while there but he couldn't
figure out how to actually BE the lord so his efforts at
winging it finally destroyed enough of peoples precious
lives and time and energy that here we are.

CD is optomistic that somehow rawat will pull off the
-how to actually BE the lord-trick.

Maybe M should e-mail bal bhagwan ji and see how HE is
managing his prisoners-oops I mean devotees.
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Date: Sun, Apr 05, 1998 at 03:24:19 (EDT)
From: Joy
Email: Bluebirdd@aol.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Charles Cameron
Message:
For anyone interested in what Charles Cameron has been up to, here is the web page that has his bio on it:

http://haven.ios.com/~davehuge/ChasCBio.html

Quite interesting! Also has links to his extensive web site, the Glass Bead Game, etc. Anyone play it? I thought it interesting, also, that there was no mention of Maharaji in his spiritual resume. Guess he must be embarassed or something, I know I would be. I still think he wrote some of the most beautiful devotional poetry ever.
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Date: Sun, Apr 05, 1998 at 08:22:55 (EDT)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Joy
Subject: Now, who was this guy again??
Message:
I forgot from the pre-archive days just what his connection to MJ was. What role did he play?
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Date: Sun, Apr 05, 1998 at 11:23:19 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Brian
Subject: Now, who was this guy again??
Message:
Didn't he write most of 'Who is Guru Maharaj Ji? Plus numerous articles for AIID?

P.S. I don't think I'd put Maharaji in my bio or on my resume, either, by the way!
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Date: Sun, Apr 05, 1998 at 14:08:59 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Now, who was this guy again??
Message:
What bugs me about Cameron's bowlderized CV is that he goes to great lengths to mention these other spiritual groups he's been instrumental in, yet I'm sure they're dwarfed in many respects in his life when compared to Maharaji.

What bugs me about his 'Millenial Institute' stuff is the obvious: hasn't he said enough about the Millenium for one man's lifetime?
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Date: Sun, Apr 05, 1998 at 09:48:14 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Joy
Subject: Charles Cameron
Message:
Joy:

Regarding the passage from Charles Cameron's biography: and Ashland quietly became a native American ceremonial center

I lived in Ashland during that period, but don't recognize him or his picture. There are a lot of things going on in Ashland, one of the most interesting places on the West Coast. I think the notion that Ashland became a native American ceremonial center is overstated, and certainly overstates his role. The important ceremonial center in Oregon is in the Wallawas, a long way from Ashland and SOC. I heard Black Elk in Eugene, not Ashland. Ashland attracts mostly people who 'drop out,' (like me at the time) because it's so relatively isolated. Still, if anyone heard of Cameron it would have been Julia Burns. I think I have her email address somewhere. Maybe she can place him for me.

-Scott
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Date: Sun, Apr 05, 1998 at 15:28:53 (EDT)
From: Joy
Email: Bluebirdd@aol.com
To: Scott T.
Subject: Charles Cameron
Message:
Yes, Charles does tend to overstate his influence just a tiny bit. The part about being instrumental in bringing Tibetan Buddhism to the west was another case in point. Maybe it was true, who knows? But I guess that's poetic license for you.

I think Charles did write Who is Guru Maharaji, as well as some AIID articles, and some beautiful poems I remember in there, but don't have copies of anymore. Don't know what his official role was, other than somewhat of a court jester and amazingly entertaining poet. He was light years ahead of most of the other premies, intellectually, but still there in the Denver ashrams with us all nonetheless. I'm surprised his web site doesn't have more of his poetry on it, as I think that's his true talent in life.
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Date: Sun, Apr 05, 1998 at 19:19:05 (EDT)
From: CD
Email: None
To: Joy
Subject: Charles Cameron
Message:
He was the editor of Who is Guru Maharaji.
As you know, many stories are in that book written by many people, as well talks by Maharaji.
The one simple M talk I have always liked is 'Little Drops of Mercy'. p210

CD
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Date: Wed, Apr 08, 1998 at 10:08:15 (EDT)
From: Mirabai
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: Charles Cameron
Message:
*Sorry,am just tring to see if message works*
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Date: Sun, Apr 05, 1998 at 01:32:48 (EST)
From: judas
Email: bancox@aol.com
To: Everyone
Subject: devotion
Message:
come here you fishes of the sea. You opened mouthed hungry little fish.
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Date: Sat, Apr 04, 1998 at 21:47:46 (EST)
From: David
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: Everyone
Subject: Thank you Salah
Message:
Salah; thank you for those two posts (On the old Forum, about knowledge and M's supposed divinity). I certainly appreciate and can relate to your perspective and understanding. Regarding the meditation; I agree that it should not be seen as the knowledge of God. One could say that it is God in so far as everything is God and I do believe that meditation can give one a better understanding of what God is but certainly, God is more than what I experience in meditation.

Of course, peace and pleasure sometimes found in meditation can be seen as an aspect or a glimpse of God's nature but I know it's just a small view, a hint. On a Spring day you may walk through a wood and feel totally at peace with everything. Way before I received the knowledge I used to suddenly get overwhelming experiences of peace, joy and overflowing love for no apparent reason. I still get these experiences now, even if I don't meditate.

My feeling is that too often on this forum the common ground of deep experience that we've had is too often forgotten or not talked about. We received the knowledge because we had a sense of something wonderful and we wanted to perceive it more. This common ground that we share is a wonderful thing. We must never forget this. Beyond all of this, there is God. I think many of the ex-premies have felt that Maharaji was taking them away from any closeness to God. It is not good to be conned into believing that God has taken human form, when He has not. The always loving God will always love us, no matter what we do. If I am reminded of that in a post here, then I am very grateful for the message.
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