Ex-Premie.Org

Forum III Archive # 10

From: May 28, 1998

To: Jun 9, 1998

Page: 2 Of: 5



Keith -:- Bits , pieces and a mystery. -:- Fri, Jun 05, 1998 at 01:26:30 (EST)
__Sir David -:- Bits , pieces and a mystery. -:- Fri, Jun 05, 1998 at 05:56:35 (EST)
____Jim -:- Bits , pieces and a mystery. -:- Fri, Jun 05, 1998 at 11:06:46 (EST)
______Robyn -:- out of body experiences -:- Fri, Jun 05, 1998 at 12:07:34 (EST)
________Jim -:- out of body experiences -:- Fri, Jun 05, 1998 at 13:44:40 (EST)
__________Robyn -:- out of body experiences -:- Fri, Jun 05, 1998 at 13:57:11 (EST)
__________Robyn -:- out of body experiences(2) -:- Fri, Jun 05, 1998 at 15:54:58 (EST)
____________Jim -:- hug? -:- Fri, Jun 05, 1998 at 16:04:30 (EST)
______________bftb -:- hug? -:- Fri, Jun 05, 1998 at 17:02:22 (EST)
__________carol -:- out of body experiences -:- Sat, Jun 06, 1998 at 14:52:41 (EST)
____________Jim -:- out of body experiences -:- Sat, Jun 06, 1998 at 16:08:04 (EST)
______________Judex -:- out of body experiences -:- Sat, Jun 06, 1998 at 16:54:21 (EST)
________________Jim -:- what contradiction? -:- Sat, Jun 06, 1998 at 18:38:48 (EST)
__________________Judex -:- what contradiction? -:- Sat, Jun 06, 1998 at 19:26:52 (EST)
____________________Jim -:- what contradiction? -:- Sat, Jun 06, 1998 at 22:25:38 (EST)
______________carol -:- out of body experiences -:- Sun, Jun 07, 1998 at 03:41:40 (EST)
______Judex -:- Bits , pieces and a mystery. -:- Fri, Jun 05, 1998 at 18:53:54 (EST)
________Jim -:- Bits , pieces and a mystery. -:- Fri, Jun 05, 1998 at 19:19:36 (EST)
__________Judex -:- Bits , pieces and a mystery. -:- Fri, Jun 05, 1998 at 20:35:26 (EST)
__________ablondi -:- stars, fortune,mystery -:- Sat, Jun 06, 1998 at 03:52:27 (EST)
____________mark -:- ablondi's have more fun ! -:- Sun, Jun 07, 1998 at 12:52:23 (EST)
______Sir David -:- Bits , pieces and a mystery. -:- Fri, Jun 05, 1998 at 21:12:17 (EST)
________Jim -:- Bits , pieces and a mystery. -:- Fri, Jun 05, 1998 at 22:17:48 (EST)
__________Sir David -:- Proof of OBEs -:- Sat, Jun 06, 1998 at 07:31:47 (EST)
________Judex -:- communications after death -:- Sat, Jun 06, 1998 at 05:10:07 (EST)
__________Katie -:- communications after death -:- Sat, Jun 06, 1998 at 07:29:27 (EST)
____________Selena -:- communications after death -:- Sat, Jun 06, 1998 at 18:16:57 (EST)
______________Jim -:- communications after death -:- Sat, Jun 06, 1998 at 18:56:43 (EST)
________________Judex -:- what i really really want -:- Sat, Jun 06, 1998 at 19:44:20 (EST)
__________________Sir David -:- And It Is Not Divine -:- Sat, Jun 06, 1998 at 20:52:43 (EST)
____________________Jim -:- And It Is Not Divine -:- Sat, Jun 06, 1998 at 22:41:35 (EST)
______________________Katie -:- And It Is Not Divine -:- Sun, Jun 07, 1998 at 00:24:57 (EST)
________________________Katie -:- Communications with the dying -:- Sun, Jun 07, 1998 at 10:36:28 (EST)
__________________________Jim -:- bad communication w Katie -:- Sun, Jun 07, 1998 at 12:54:24 (EST)
____________________________Katie -:- bad communication with Jim -:- Sun, Jun 07, 1998 at 16:01:07 (EST)
____________________________Katie -:- never forgive? -:- Sun, Jun 07, 1998 at 21:09:48 (EST)
______________________________Jim -:- never forgive? -:- Mon, Jun 08, 1998 at 02:24:49 (EST)
________________________________Katie -:- forgive? -:- Mon, Jun 08, 1998 at 08:27:13 (EST)
______________________Judex -:- John Denver -:- Sun, Jun 07, 1998 at 04:40:09 (EST)
____________________Judex -:- And It Is Not Divine -:- Sun, Jun 07, 1998 at 04:32:24 (EST)
______________________carol -:- And It Is Not Divine -:- Sun, Jun 07, 1998 at 04:41:22 (EST)
________________________Judex -:- To Carol -:- Sun, Jun 07, 1998 at 05:09:15 (EST)
__________________Jim -:- What is really true -:- Sat, Jun 06, 1998 at 22:35:44 (EST)
________________Selena -:- communications after death -:- Sat, Jun 06, 1998 at 20:34:57 (EST)
______________Sherlock Cheese-Holmes -:- communications after death -:- Sat, Jun 06, 1998 at 21:07:06 (EST)
________________Selena -:- communications after death -:- Sat, Jun 06, 1998 at 21:37:46 (EST)
__________________Gerry -:- Minor unexplained mystery -:- Sat, Jun 06, 1998 at 22:15:41 (EST)
____________________Jim -:- Minor unexplained mystery -:- Sat, Jun 06, 1998 at 22:53:30 (EST)
______________________Gerry -:- Minor unexplained mystery -:- Sat, Jun 06, 1998 at 23:52:55 (EST)
________________________Gerry -:- Dowsing debunked-Found it! -:- Sun, Jun 07, 1998 at 12:56:58 (EST)
__________________________Jim -:- Dowsing debunked-Found it! -:- Sun, Jun 07, 1998 at 13:22:09 (EST)
____________________________Gerry -:- Dowsing debunked-Found it! -:- Sun, Jun 07, 1998 at 13:36:23 (EST)
______________________________Gerry -:- Dowsing debunked-Found it! -:- Sun, Jun 07, 1998 at 14:46:08 (EST)
________________________________Jim -:- Oh yeah? -:- Sun, Jun 07, 1998 at 15:38:13 (EST)
__________________________________Gerry -:- Yeah! -:- Sun, Jun 07, 1998 at 22:15:37 (EST)
____________________________________Gerry -:- Gardner, minor retraction -:- Mon, Jun 08, 1998 at 10:12:07 (EST)
________________________________Selena -:- Dowsing debunked-Found it! -:- Sun, Jun 07, 1998 at 23:35:09 (EST)
__________________________________Judex -:- Reikii -:- Mon, Jun 08, 1998 at 00:14:41 (EST)
____________________________________Joy -:- Reikii -:- Mon, Jun 08, 1998 at 01:35:02 (EST)
____________________________________Katie -:- Reikii -:- Mon, Jun 08, 1998 at 08:32:40 (EST)
__________________Jim -:- communications after death -:- Sat, Jun 06, 1998 at 22:51:37 (EST)
________________Jim -:- reasoning with a living David -:- Sat, Jun 06, 1998 at 22:50:08 (EST)
__________________Judex -:- Proof -:- Sun, Jun 07, 1998 at 04:58:27 (EST)
__________________Sir David -:- reasoning with a living Jim -:- Sun, Jun 07, 1998 at 08:11:14 (EST)
____________________Jim -:- reasoning with a living Jim -:- Sun, Jun 07, 1998 at 12:58:34 (EST)
______________________Gerry -:- reasoning with a living Jim -:- Sun, Jun 07, 1998 at 13:11:25 (EST)
________________________Selena -:- reasoning with a living Jim -:- Sun, Jun 07, 1998 at 13:19:34 (EST)
__Jim -:- Flotsam, jetsom and truth -:- Fri, Jun 05, 1998 at 10:58:10 (EST)
__Katie -:- Bits , pieces and a mystery. -:- Fri, Jun 05, 1998 at 11:39:39 (EST)
__Katie -:- URL -:- Fri, Jun 05, 1998 at 12:14:39 (EST)
____Keith -:- Science , etc -:- Fri, Jun 05, 1998 at 15:43:53 (EST)
______Jim -:- Science , etc -:- Fri, Jun 05, 1998 at 15:55:51 (EST)
________Keith -:- Science , etc -:- Fri, Jun 05, 1998 at 17:24:56 (EST)
__________carol -:- Science , etc -:- Sun, Jun 07, 1998 at 04:19:21 (EST)

Jean-Michel -:- Question -:- Thurs, Jun 04, 1998 at 17:42:32 (EST)
__Richard -:- Question -:- Fri, Jun 05, 1998 at 08:11:46 (EST)
____Jean-Michel -:- Question -:- Fri, Jun 05, 1998 at 10:02:06 (EST)
______Richard -:- email address -:- Fri, Jun 05, 1998 at 10:45:55 (EST)
______Katie -:- D@vid Stirling's e-mail -:- Fri, Jun 05, 1998 at 10:53:00 (EST)

JW -:- Why DON'T Premies Stay Around? -:- Thurs, Jun 04, 1998 at 13:19:08 (EST)
__Robyn -:- Why DON'T Premies Stay Around? -:- Thurs, Jun 04, 1998 at 15:57:41 (EST)
____Jean-Michel -:- Never leave any room ..... -:- Thurs, Jun 04, 1998 at 17:33:00 (EST)
__VP -:- Why DON'T Premies Stay Around? -:- Fri, Jun 05, 1998 at 00:14:14 (EST)
__david f. -:- Why DON'T Premies Stay Around? -:- Fri, Jun 05, 1998 at 01:17:27 (EST)
____Mirabai -:- Why DON'T Premies Stay Around? -:- Fri, Jun 05, 1998 at 04:36:08 (EST)
____Robyn -:- Why DON'T Premies Stay Around? -:- Fri, Jun 05, 1998 at 10:45:17 (EST)
__John Hammond-Smyth -:- Why DON'T Premies Stay Around? -:- Fri, Jun 05, 1998 at 07:46:03 (EST)
____Richard -:- I'm Thinking... -:- Fri, Jun 05, 1998 at 08:25:31 (EST)
____Robyn -:- Why DON'T Premies Stay Around? -:- Fri, Jun 05, 1998 at 10:41:09 (EST)
______Jim -:- Robyn, are you serious? -:- Fri, Jun 05, 1998 at 11:14:29 (EST)
________Robyn -:- Robyn, are you serious? -:- Fri, Jun 05, 1998 at 12:13:48 (EST)
____Jim -:- Now that's funny -:- Fri, Jun 05, 1998 at 11:12:38 (EST)
______Richard -:- Off Topic...Raja and Claudia -:- Fri, Jun 05, 1998 at 11:51:27 (EST)
________Jim -:- Off Topic...Raja and Claudia -:- Fri, Jun 05, 1998 at 14:04:25 (EST)
______John Hammond-Smyth -:- Now that's funny -:- Fri, Jun 05, 1998 at 12:46:42 (EST)
____Joy -:- Why DON'T Premies Stay Around? -:- Fri, Jun 05, 1998 at 11:28:53 (EST)
____Judex -:- Why DON'T Premies Stay Around? -:- Fri, Jun 05, 1998 at 19:18:56 (EST)
______Jim -:- John HS is a joke - literally! -:- Fri, Jun 05, 1998 at 19:25:50 (EST)
________Judex -:- John HS is a joke - literally! -:- Fri, Jun 05, 1998 at 19:42:38 (EST)
__________Katie -:- John HS is a joke - literally! -:- Fri, Jun 05, 1998 at 20:01:33 (EST)

Robyn -:- Good luck Scott! -:- Thurs, Jun 04, 1998 at 12:21:31 (EST)

dlm -:- new visitor -:- Thurs, Jun 04, 1998 at 11:09:58 (EST)
__Robyn -:- new visitor -:- Thurs, Jun 04, 1998 at 11:40:04 (EST)
____dlm -:- new visitor -:- Thurs, Jun 04, 1998 at 12:18:54 (EST)
______Judex -:- Your Story -:- Thurs, Jun 04, 1998 at 16:35:40 (EST)
______bb -:- new visitor -:- Fri, Jun 05, 1998 at 21:15:56 (EST)
__Robyn -:- a clarification -:- Thurs, Jun 04, 1998 at 11:42:02 (EST)

Brian -:- This Old Ashram -:- Thurs, Jun 04, 1998 at 09:44:16 (EST)
__JW -:- This Old Ashram -:- Thurs, Jun 04, 1998 at 12:48:05 (EST)
____Sure -:- This Old Ashram -:- Thurs, Jun 04, 1998 at 13:25:59 (EST)
______JW -:- This Old Ashram -:- Thurs, Jun 04, 1998 at 17:12:01 (EST)
________Brian -:- This Old Ashram -:- Thurs, Jun 04, 1998 at 23:02:49 (EST)

Robyn -:- Happy Birthday <3 Gerry! -:- Thurs, Jun 04, 1998 at 08:23:14 (EST)
__Richard -:- Happy Birthday <3 Gerry! -:- Thurs, Jun 04, 1998 at 09:25:45 (EST)
____Katie -:- Happy Birthday, Gerry! -:- Thurs, Jun 04, 1998 at 10:25:43 (EST)
______Jim -:- Happy Birthday, Gerry! -:- Thurs, Jun 04, 1998 at 10:31:14 (EST)
________Gerry -:- Happy Birthday, Gerry! -:- Thurs, Jun 04, 1998 at 13:03:01 (EST)
__________Judex -:- Happy Birthday, Gerry! -:- Thurs, Jun 04, 1998 at 16:42:43 (EST)
____VP -:- You could be my Dad!! -:- Thurs, Jun 04, 1998 at 13:32:59 (EST)
__carol -:- Happy Birthday <3 Gerry! -:- Thurs, Jun 04, 1998 at 19:34:47 (EST)
____Keith -:- Happy Birthday -:- Fri, Jun 05, 1998 at 19:48:12 (EST)

Keith -:- Communication,etc. -:- Thurs, Jun 04, 1998 at 03:09:08 (EST)
__Katie -:- Communication,etc. -:- Thurs, Jun 04, 1998 at 10:31:06 (EST)
__Robyn -:- Communication,etc. -:- Thurs, Jun 04, 1998 at 11:51:18 (EST)
____Robyn -:- Marabai -:- Thurs, Jun 04, 1998 at 11:54:28 (EST)
______Keith -:- Marabai -:- Thurs, Jun 04, 1998 at 20:02:11 (EST)
__Swot (Eng Lit, grade E) -:- Communication,etc. -:- Thurs, Jun 04, 1998 at 20:01:33 (EST)

Selena -:- finally a break! -:- Wed, Jun 03, 1998 at 20:28:10 (EST)
__Ms. K -:- finally a break! -:- Wed, Jun 03, 1998 at 21:23:44 (EST)
____Selena -:- finally a break! -:- Wed, Jun 03, 1998 at 22:04:58 (EST)
__VP -:- finally a break! -:- Wed, Jun 03, 1998 at 23:07:18 (EST)
__Robyn -:- finally a break! -:- Thurs, Jun 04, 1998 at 12:12:32 (EST)
____Selena -:- here for now -:- Thurs, Jun 04, 1998 at 19:44:42 (EST)

Jim -:- letter to EV (re Seattle) -:- Wed, Jun 03, 1998 at 16:04:59 (EST)
__JW -:- letter to EV (re Seattle) -:- Wed, Jun 03, 1998 at 19:44:41 (EST)
____Jim -:- letter to EV (re Seattle) -:- Wed, Jun 03, 1998 at 20:44:14 (EST)
______Jean-Michel -:- letter to EV (re Seattle) -:- Thurs, Jun 04, 1998 at 03:18:42 (EST)
________Richard -:- JM is right Jim -:- Fri, Jun 05, 1998 at 11:43:00 (EST)
__________Jean-Michel -:- Thanks Richard! -:- Fri, Jun 05, 1998 at 16:35:36 (EST)
____________Richard -:- Last thing to go... -:- Mon, Jun 08, 1998 at 08:16:13 (EST)
__________Jean-Michel -:- About SECURITY -:- Sat, Jun 06, 1998 at 09:44:54 (EST)

Joy -:- Shakers -:- Wed, Jun 03, 1998 at 13:53:51 (EST)
__Jim -:- Visions in Nelson -:- Wed, Jun 03, 1998 at 15:43:09 (EST)
__JW -:- Shakers -:- Wed, Jun 03, 1998 at 16:29:25 (EST)
____Gerry -:- Shakers -:- Wed, Jun 03, 1998 at 16:51:28 (EST)
____bftb -:- Shakers -:- Thurs, Jun 04, 1998 at 11:01:43 (EST)
______Katie -:- M quote? -:- Thurs, Jun 04, 1998 at 11:18:32 (EST)
________bftb -:- M quote? -:- Fri, Jun 05, 1998 at 12:34:33 (EST)
__________JW -:- Anger of Others -:- Fri, Jun 05, 1998 at 13:40:31 (EST)
____________Joy -:- Anger of Others -:- Fri, Jun 05, 1998 at 15:16:44 (EST)
______Robyn -:- Shakers -:- Thurs, Jun 04, 1998 at 12:28:48 (EST)
____Robyn -:- Shakers -:- Thurs, Jun 04, 1998 at 12:19:27 (EST)
__Knight of Round Cheese -:- The hippy hippy shake -:- Thurs, Jun 04, 1998 at 06:18:09 (EST)
____Robyn -:- The hippy hippy shake -:- Thurs, Jun 04, 1998 at 12:33:56 (EST)


Date: Fri, Jun 05, 1998 at 01:26:30 (EST)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Bits , pieces and a mystery.
Message:
http://flp.cs.tu-berlin.de:1895/listening-l/html/archive9806/maillist.html#b

The above address was sent to me recently.
It looks interesting!
Also the Brockwood Park URL is(I think) www.pcug.co.uk

Now another 'mystery' for all you fellow mystery buffs.
Hot off the press this one .

    Last night I awoke suddenly at about 3.00am and realised my body was in
a state of panic.  Then I realised I was not in it.
  I thought..'just relax' and so I did ...and then experienced myself
re-enter my body.
  I relaxed by breathing deeply and felt this warm glow spread right through
me.
A smile broke out on my face as I acknowledged that I'd overcome the fear
and calmed my body.....and because I felt at peace....and then I went
back to sleep.

What the more skeptical and scientifically rational have done is
slur and degrade so much metaphysical experience by throwing the word 'hallucination' at whatever does not meet with official current scientific facts.
Of course there are legitimate hallucinatory experiences(that BTW are of great psychological significance anyway.....and therefore should not be thrown into a trash can for useless delusions!) and there are hoaxes(or hoax's?) but after doing years of research and having had many personal experiences of my own I feel that much phenomona that gets convienently labled as hallucinatory is actually factual or partly factual.
Science itself suffers from a massive delusion.
There is a Fact that scientists are generally loath to consider.
Todays scientific facts are tomorrows outdated fictions or are at least incomplete , which amounts to 'non-facts'.
And the real pioneers are rarely scientists who are mostly paranoid about being seen as politically correct and scientifically 'sane' , but rather those who are free to walk the ways of free and unhindered research and who are often the unsung hero's of futures yet to be.

Another interesting site is the one set up by Whitely and Anne
Strieber. (Communion).

I don't have the URL but it's easy to search for .
Anyway, I think I've stirred the hornets nest enough for now...so I'll buzz off ...........bzzzzzzzzzzz !
Keith
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Date: Fri, Jun 05, 1998 at 05:56:35 (EST)
From: Sir David
Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com
To: Keith
Subject: Bits , pieces and a mystery.
Message:
Out of body experiences (OBE's) are experienced all the time by people. I personally know several people who've had them. One or two people on this forum have had them also.

A test to ascertain whether they are hallucinations or not would be if the OBE experiencer can see things in their immediate enviroment that they cannot see with their physical eyes. This has happened although I'll explain why it's virtually impossible to prove it under laboratory conditions.

Cardiac wards, ressucitation rooms and operating theatres are very common venues where OBEs happen. There are many patients who on recovering from a temporary death experience have been able to tell doctors exactly what those doctors had been doing to resuscitate them, what instruments were used and which medical staff were working on them. Doctors have been astounded by the accurate details that these dead or unconscious patients have described of the situation when they were supposedly out of it. I have personally heard some doctors' accounts of this.

This is fine but only counts as verbal evidence and is not under lab conditions. And that's the problem - a doctor could hardly tell a patient, on being admitted, that just in case they died, they had set up an experiment so could they please die in the room which was under laboratory conditions! However the incidencies of the above doctor authenticated OBEs are so regular and numerous that one could say with confidence that they are far more likely to be true OBEs rather than hallucinations.
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Date: Fri, Jun 05, 1998 at 11:06:46 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Sir David
Subject: Bits , pieces and a mystery.
Message:
David,

All this anecdotal stuff impresses only so far. Here's a taste of how such experiences might be perceived by someone not initially inclined to spirituality:

A SKEPTIC'S NDE--- NOT SO MYSTICAL
NDEs (Near-Death Experiences) profoundly affect those who recover to describe them. Prominent in most NDEs is the perception of traveling down a long tunnel. Those with a religion or mystical turn believe that this tunnel opens up into an afterlife or perhaps a continued existence on some other 'plane.'

In a recent Skeptical Inquirer, L.D. Lansberry wrote of her personal NDE. It happened during angioplasty, when her heart stopped temporarily. Lansberry, a confirmed skeptic in such matters, has always maintained that the customary interpretations of NDEs are so much 'tomfoolery.' When she entered that famous NDE tunnel herself, she saw it close down around her as her heart stopped. Then, as the doctor brought her back, the tunnel opened up again and she saw a light at the tunnel's end, but it turned out to be only the light of the operating room.

Lansberry asserts that there is nothing transcendental about the tunnel effect. She attributes the experience to the failure of neurotransmitters in the outer portion of her brain failing to fire, in effect creating a collapsing tunnel in her mind. Fortunately, her doctor reversed the effect. 'When the tunnel closes,' she wrote, we are dead.'

(Lansberry, Laura Darlene; 'First-Person Report: A Skeptic's Near-Death Experience,' Skeptical Inquirer, 18:431, 1994.)


When you say:

Cardiac wards, ressucitation rooms and operating theatres are very common venues where OBEs happen. There are many patients who on recovering from a temporary death experience have been able to tell doctors exactly what those doctors had been doing to resuscitate them, what instruments were used and which medical staff were working on them. Doctors have been astounded by the accurate details that these dead or unconscious patients have described of the situation when they were supposedly out of it. I have personally heard some doctors' accounts of this.

it makes me wonder how you know this? Got any stats? Any numbers at all? Anything the least to back this up?
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Date: Fri, Jun 05, 1998 at 12:07:34 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: Jim
Subject: out of body experiences
Message:
Dear Jim,
I, unfortunately, have never had an out of body experience but would welcome it big time. Anyway, not only do people have the experience when they have temporarily 'died' but also within the areana of spirtual pursuits. I have read about a few and they are like Keith's and in more than one account I've read that the person can see a thin thread like connection between themselve(s). How would Landsberry explain that.
All this stuff, for me is acknowledged with a clicking of an internal, non scientific logic. I know you don't relate to that but it has been my experience. I have asked you before without answer but what are you about, just your job, you participation here, you relationship with Laurie? Is there any part of your being that resides below the surface? I am very curious, are you up for this line of Q and A?
I am not trying to bait you and I think you have shut down that part of yourself since BM and I have mentioned before that is a big reason why I think the BM deserves a big kick in the ass on your behalf.
Robyn
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Date: Fri, Jun 05, 1998 at 13:44:40 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: out of body experiences
Message:
All this stuff, for me is acknowledged with a clicking of an internal, non scientific logic. I know you don't relate to that but it has been my experience. I have asked you before without answer but what are you about, just your job, you participation here, you relationship with Laurie? Is there any part of your being that resides below the surface? I am very curious, are you up for this line of Q and A?

First, Robyn, it's not a matter of baiting. We're all, I hope, seriously trying to understand the truth and argue for that part of it we think we're already on the trail of. Isn't that so? Don't cry for me, Argentina.

But, Robyn, what exactly is 'internal, non scientific logic'? Is it logic at all? If not, do you think you're doing yourself or anyone else any favours by 'misappropriating' the term? I mean, don't you hate it when fundamentalist christians talk about their 'scientific' scriptural study? In their case, there's nothing the least bit scientific going on, they're just trying to exploit some of the respect associated with the word. Now why do they do that? Isn't the answer obvious?

You talk about NDE's and OBE's as if their existence is a settled matter. Robyn, it isn't. Does that interest you or not? Do you want to really know the truth of these matters or are you more enamoured with the raomance of mystery? What's up? Didn't you see the Simpsons episode where Lisa finds an 'angel'? Yes, people say and even believe that they've had all sorts of experiences, but have they? Have they really?

Look at the new-age channelling trend of the 80s. Where idd all those disembodied extra-terrestrial and marvel comic spirits go? Are they just retired, settling down and having kids? You've got to admit that field's dried up immensely over the last ten years.

What about all the 'witchcraft experiences' and 'demonic possessions' commonly reported, discussed and taken seriously in past centuries? And on and on and on.

Yes, Maharaji helped me learn that the mind is a tricky, tricky thing and that the brain is likely capable of more than we currently appreciate. After I drifted away from Maharaji I was still interested in 'spirituality' and got particularly interested in Terence Mckenna's trip. I now think that, brilliant raconteur as he is, McKenna's full of shit. The 'imaginary landscape' is all accountable as a brain phenomenon. Does that make me boring, dull or closed-off to the real spice of life? I don't think that brain researchers would think so. I don't.

I just want to to know the truth of these things and realize that science delivers while religion and mysticism just bullshits.

Here, think of this. If you were to go back 500 years and consider then what we're able to know and do now, it would sound fantastic and well within the realm, you'd imagine then, of 'spirit' or 'magiic'. But it isn't, it's just science slowly, incrementally, informing us about the world. Science is encroaching, bit by bit, on the 'mysteries'. Who knows how afar it will get, or if there are some inscrutable mysteries it may never make any headway in answering, but it's done more than ever expected so far. Religion's just celebrated ignorance.
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Date: Fri, Jun 05, 1998 at 13:57:11 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: Jim
Subject: out of body experiences
Message:
Dear Jim,
Thanks, I only have a minute till tanning time so I'll finish when I get back but just want to say I do believe in science and when I read Katie's post about science it was enlightening. I used the word logic only because that is the word my mind has attached to the feeling I get when something clicks with me. I was a computer programer and actually tested highest in a class on simple tests of logic and got A's in logic in college so I do have that background also but when I used the word without clarification, sorry, I didn't mean that type of scientific method and was actually dissapointed when I saw what the science of logic really was. I've posted this before but I found it very constrictive and not able to take all things into accout. Gotta go my tan is fading as I type!!!
I'll come back to this.
Robyn
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Date: Fri, Jun 05, 1998 at 15:54:58 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Jim
Subject: out of body experiences(2)
Message:
Dear Jim,
Sorry about making you think that I feel sorry for you, that you don't believe in unexplainable things, I think that is why you got that impression. You obviously are firmly standing in your beliefs and have done work and research to get there, more than I can say for myself.
I just don't have time to research all the topics that intrest me...of course if I didn't spend 40 hrs/wk on the forum...oh well. Even when I have not been working 2 jobs, I have raised 2 children, cared for home and animals and put a lot of time and energy into those pursuits and when I do read it seems to have been phsycological (sp) books, health related books or novels, or text books, right now I am reading a book about the disease care crisis in the Medical profession, listening to audio tapes of Toni Morrison's Paridise, while putting all those miles on my car and the most captivating of all, Arc View GIS, and creating a semminar on that software for Department of Environmental Protection employees so I really can't see me even touching on some of the reading that I've heard about here, I hope when I retire! So I guess what I am getting at is that, yes I do love the romantic mystisicm of things that 'click' with me and I know I might see things differently if I knew more about this or that and have pick up a lot from reading here but you see I trust my inner 'clicking' without thinking of it as absolute.
I know 2 people that channel right here in PA but then I guess we are behind the times.
Believe me Jim, I do not find you dull or boring! I can't even believe you weren't joking there. It sounds to me like you have a full life, job, Laurie, band, reasearch. I was just asking you about stuff below the surface, the unexplainable, or maybe you think everything is explainable, I don't know.
I am also VERY anti-religion, that is what growing up Catholic and in a violet home did for me! I don't believe in institutionalizing anything, although I see how it happens and may sometimes even be unaviodable. Mysticism on the other hand is a word I have used with the clarification that I use the word for the lack of another I can think of that I like more. There is such a broad range of things to experience beneath the surface it is a bit hard to label.
I will continue to think about the 500 years ago thing but right off the top of my head, I think cloning is a horror, artificial intelligence scares the shit out of me, (I'll have to learn Richard's British trick!)as you might have guessed I don't think humans have any right to do animal testing, there are already to many humans and I am really afraid of carring capacity being the end of us as a speices. Science is good but where to draw the line. The unexplainable is infinite and filled with joy and wonder, for me.
Have you read about my angel experience with the energy/jet stream? I would like to hear how you could explain that scientifically. Really, I hope you do respond to this. I will be away from a computer in about 40 min. but will probably check in a bit tomorrow after I run with my puppies and will be working at job 2 on Sun and I will look to continue this conversation if you find it worthy.
Sometimes we butt heads you and I maybe, not bad, challenging but I want you to realize that I love you too. I don't say it because I don't think you want to hear that type of thing and good thing your not here now or I'd give you a big hug!
Robyn
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Date: Fri, Jun 05, 1998 at 16:04:30 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: hug?
Message:
Robyn,

You really should think about the 500 year thing. Think about it fairly. Don't just dwell on technology that scares you, think about all of the questions that were once coveted as religion's precious mysteries that science, and only science, has since answered. Give credit where its due. Mysticism has a lot to fear from science when you look at the big picture.
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Date: Fri, Jun 05, 1998 at 17:02:22 (EST)
From: bftb
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: hug?
Message:
Don't worry about mysticism fearing science.This mysticism business will be around even after science has explained everything.Remember what P.T.Barnum said.

See,that comment of yours re:mysticism fearing science is logical but not realistic.The real world works differently.Many humans actually prefer mysticism because it's more fun and we do have overactive imaginations that will always find fantasy more exciting then reality.

I know I did.

I have at times thought that in the end,science will explain everything,even the mysteries,but I now know that even faced with the explanation many people will still prefer the mystery and find ways to rationalise the explanation away.

For example; I have a life long friend who has recently become a born again christian.Fundamentalist to boot!Now,that doesn't sound like that big a deal right?I mean people are 'born again' every day.The thing is though,that in this case it's kind of akin to you,Jim H,becoming a born again christian.I mean this guy has been a confirmed atheist since we could read!When I was off opening the doors of perception this guy was explaining to me how all that so called spiritual stuff was a bunch of primitive hokum and the idea that anyone in this day and age could succumb to ANY such ridiculous concepts was absurd.After all,science had proven so much of all that stuff to be nonsensical superstition.He would go on and on about how advances like carbon dating had proven how ridiculous the creationist theory was.That if you didn't understand and believe Darwin you were just ignorant.On and on.I mean the last thing this guy had any patience for was anything 'mystical'. He's also one of those people who is extremely intelligent.You know,the type who got moved up in grade school to learn with people twice his age because he was that advanced.Same thing in high scool and so on.No one(myself included) questions this individuals extraordinary intelligence.In fact it was his intelligence that made it so difficult to argue points with him if he was of an opposing view because he'd eventually win(and although I hate to admit it)and actually his side usually was the right side.

So can you imagine the surprise I felt upon hearing(from him) of his 'born again christian' status? I was floored!

Me: ....but Einstein,what about carbon dating that you used to explain to any flake who'd listen?

E: Well...you know the carbon dating process is seriously flawed....

I'll spare you the details as I'm sure you can fill in the blanks.On and on it went.Every question had a new rationalization.I finally just asked him something along the lines of : 'How can someone of your intelligence abandon everything you know about reality,and place your reasoning faculties in a state of suspended animation?I mean how can you kid yourself like that.You're so much smarter then that!'

He answered me with a bible quote which I won't remember exactly but it was something to the effect of 'You must become unwise to become wise' or something like that. Now being the smart ass that I am I immediately threw back the ' Lest ye become as these little children ye shall not(cannot? bill?)enter unto the kingdom of heaven' So it was like 'yeah Einstein I hear what you're saying and I know those quotes too but really. HOW?'

He just kind of shrugged and smirked.I guess we'll never understand the ways of the 'spirit'- even when we do.

------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes.I see the irony here.I myself(as I explained in a post below)just had it revealed to me how intolerable my 'spiritual' life had been for another friend.This other friend couldn't understand how I,a seemingly rational person,could ever have fallen for M/EV or anything along those lines.Much the same way as I can't figure out Einstein's conversion.

How the tables turn!
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Date: Sat, Jun 06, 1998 at 14:52:41 (EST)
From: carol
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: out of body experiences
Message:
Jim,
I took a 3 cr class at Portland State U. in about 1986 called Paranormal Communication. I think it was in the Speech depart.! The prof was a rational guy who was anti-cult. He described many phenomena such as mind-reading, OBE's, clairvoyance, etc. as being a result of an ability inherent in all people, but stronger in people who practice it. He used the term locus-of-control to describe the place of consciousness within us. He said that people who seem to have special abilities or experiences are people who expanded their locus-of-control into time or space. We did experiments in class where we practiced mind-reading.
carol
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Date: Sat, Jun 06, 1998 at 16:08:04 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: carol
Subject: out of body experiences
Message:
Carol,

Could you explain further? You know did you guys come up with anything that seemed to defy normal explanation?
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Date: Sat, Jun 06, 1998 at 16:54:21 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: out of body experiences
Message:
Dear Jim
I was wondering about the seeming contradiction - you don't seem to want to accept that people may have greater faculties than just the five senses, but you love memes.

So, within the framework of the mind or intellect you are willing to go into deep space, but about other 'frameworks' you want PROOF. Well, come to think of it, that may be healthy but I just note a seeming incongruity.

By the way on the subject of who we are, memes, that kind of topic, I woke up this morning with the word evoke on my mind. How something or someone can evoke something in you. Now what is that, I wonder?

Just wondering....
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Date: Sat, Jun 06, 1998 at 18:38:48 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Judex
Subject: what contradiction?
Message:
i>I was wondering about the seeming contradiction - you don't seem to want to accept that people may have greater faculties than just the five senses, but you love memes.
So, within the framework of the mind or intellect you are willing to go into deep space, but about other 'frameworks' you want PROOF. Well, come to think of it, that may be healthy but I just note a seeming incongruity.

Judex,

I'm not so sure there's a contradiction here as you suggest. First, I 'love' memes to the extent that I'm fascinated with the hypothesis. Clearly, it works on some levels but is it anything more than a clever metaphor? I don't know. I'm intrigued and confused by the idea. If it was true, however, that thoughts, to the extent that they are 'self-replicators' mirror gene-based natural selection, I don't see how that would be supernatural. Fantastic, yes, but supernatural, no. Now we know that we have thoughts, this would just be a further understanding of how they spread, breed and grow. We know they do all of that already. None of the meme theory defies any known physical laws.

Faculties beyond our five senses may exist too but its pretty hard to entertain that idea very seriously when there's no evidence of any biological centre for any such activity and no evidence, beyond anecdotal, for their effect. Suppose that the dead CAN communicate with us. How would that work? It would have to work somehow? You know, extraordinary claims and all that .....

You know, this last little while, with everyone talking about mysticism, astrology, OBE's, NDE's and what have you, I'm reminded how we all know each other. We were, after all, members of a sometime extreme but always far-fetched new age cult together. I guess I shouldn't be so surprised.
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Date: Sat, Jun 06, 1998 at 19:26:52 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: what contradiction?
Message:
I'll think about an answer to the other stuff. In the meantime, just on that point of 'new age cult' - this has struck an odd note for me before - Knowledge would not be a new age cult in my definition of new age. New Age is supposedly that concept of the circle, no leaders or followers. A new paradigm, where instead of polarities eg right/wrong, good/bad you have a sythesis of these concepts into a higher truth. For instance, I am good and bad and therefore I am something bigger than that, which contains those concepts. I am complete and perfect in my self, and not split into acceptable/unacceptable bits, etc.

Maharaji, being a triangle situation, and a leader/follower would be in those terms a very old age concept. They mean age in terms of astrological concepts, BTW, eg the last Age of 2,000 years was the Age of Pisces, and Christ was the great teacher. Now we are in the Age of Aquarius where the theme is brotherhood, humanity, equality (also revolution, chaos, shock). Aquarius is ruled by Uranus - the planet which was discovered at the same time as electricity was invented, I believe (this concept of 'synchronicity' which Jung explored).

So Uranus, the electric planet, rules computers, electromagnetic fields, thoughts etc. Just a bit of background in case you're interested in this meme.

(Other astrology people would know a lot more than me. I am the perpetual student, never 'passing' anything, I think!)

I just think 'memes' is an example of seeing a reflection adn thinking, this is me, eg we invent computers and then say our minds are like computers, downloading, having 'defaults', all that fun stuff. (and can network? can zip? can connect on a global level?). But to me, we are not the computer, it is a part of us.

So memes do not create us, they are part of the creation. Also, we have a choice of which ones we take on board (unlike genetics). For example, I go to a new job, I 'smell' their mind-set and I don't want it. Like what people are saying about the New Age 'Trainers'. Behind their 'clever' (stolen) concepts is the good-old - how can we the elite get more productivity out of the peasants (but don't do anythign too radical like offer them a share in the company, for example).

it's Sunday morning here and my daughter has taken off to spend the day with her dad. However I see it is Saturday night in your reality (though here we both are - what day/time is it?)
So I don't really expect an answer to this Sunday morning chit chat!
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Date: Sat, Jun 06, 1998 at 22:25:38 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Judex
Subject: what contradiction?
Message:
Actually, Judex, I'm just making a pit stop home in between soundcheck and X-Flies gig. It's a nice hot night tonight, hopefully we'll get a good crowd, remember our parts -- or at least some of them -- and have a blast. Why, I haven't had such a good time since setting up for the public programs we used to do at the Y in Vancouver!

Judex, you said:

New Age is supposedly that concept of the circle, no leaders or followers. which I think is intersting. I think I see where you get that idea. Here's what I think. The 'new age' mentality started as a much broader thing back in the late 60s. Yes, it has its roots in relatively obscure spiritualism going back to Annie Bessant, Madame Blatavsky, Crowley maybe, a little later Cayce, but the real party started happening in the alte 60s. At that point, American youth in particular rejected all sorts of values of their war-era parents and, with the help of a little acid in particular, tossed out the baby (rationality) with the bathwater (crewcuts).

Back in 73 when I got knowledge Maharaji was very much 'mainstream newage', if I can call him that, because he and all the other impressarios who came in on the Indian culture trend, stood for that one, initial, common newage ideal -- the rejection of our parents' worldview and values.

Since then I think the new age thing has become perhaps a little more specific along the lines you describe. Howwver, I also firmly believe that the field, even today, is completely filled with teachers and gurus, leaders and essentially authoritarian types a la Kramer and Alstad, despite however egalitarian they try to present themselves.

I'm not going to deal with your meme comments now.
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Date: Sun, Jun 07, 1998 at 03:41:40 (EST)
From: carol
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: out of body experiences
Message:
It's just that the teacher provided a way of explaining the phenomena, including things like healing by holding hands over or around a person, or finding lost things, in the terms of a natural human ability to expand and direct our consciousness. It's not very scientific in that it still seems to rely on conjecture and can't really be proven. At the time it seemed like a reasonable explanation...just something that has yet to be discovered or proved by scientific method. Have you read about studies of 'extra-sensory' abilities?
carol
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Date: Fri, Jun 05, 1998 at 18:53:54 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Bits , pieces and a mystery.
Message:
Jim, there are many books written detailing specifics. Robert Munroe's 'Journeys out of the Body' I am pretty sure it's called has been around for ages. It is interesting but I hesitate to recommend anyone read it because it gets really bizarre. He ends up learning how to consciously have such journeys after accidentally having them, and then describes where he goes on his travels. None of it is very interesting somehow, after the initial 'wow, that happened'.

To me it's not so much do these things happen or not, but what is the meaning. I sometimes get a feeling that the meaning, the truth others for example Scott have suggested they are willing to seek is just so big and so out-of-context of our mind frames that we can't get near to even imagining it. It would require a whole another language, and that language can't be learned by our minds the way they are.

And even then, what? Would we then be in the presence still of 'that presence', that space, that reality we all know about. You must know inside of yourself about an experience of a timeless dimension because you practiced knowledge for 10 years. I don't really mean 'must know' - I mean - what about your experiences of practicing - did you experience anything? I'm not attributing any experience to knowledge itself, but just talking about having had an experience of something beyond the physical through some means or another.

I suppose I mean rather than playing skeptics advocate, would you mind sharing any of your own experiences (not necessarily near death) of other states of being. Should you choose to accept this mission, all records will be kept in the archives and there is no self-destruction going on here as far as I know!
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Date: Fri, Jun 05, 1998 at 19:19:36 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Judex
Subject: Bits , pieces and a mystery.
Message:
Judex,

We're posting across each other here. (See mine to you above). I'll tell you, quite simply, I used to like to meditate and imagine as I did, that I was floating in some timeless, infinite ocean, etc. etc. I now believe that,despite what anyone says, that feeling was completely dependent on my imgination. Completely.

Look, maybe stilling the mind is a completely cool thing to do. Slowing it down, if possible, detaching it from the many concerns, large and small, of manouevering through the world. But it's not mystical. It's just an awareness of being alive. Is that awesome? Yes. Magical? No.
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Date: Fri, Jun 05, 1998 at 20:35:26 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Bits , pieces and a mystery.
Message:
Yes, thanks for your answer.
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Date: Sat, Jun 06, 1998 at 03:52:27 (EST)
From: ablondi
Email: jps.net
To: Jim
Subject: stars, fortune,mystery
Message:
Take away the human mind and what do we have? A configuration of celestial spatial starmaps. It all seems mysterious in a grand sense. Incomprehensible except for what we can apply to it through our background. Fortunately they are all differnt as we all represent a different aspect of the same thing. It is what you bring into the human community that matters most . Bringing some insight from all of our collective experience and practicing that in a simple daily ritual leads us to new profundity. thank you for all of your insights. It is good to know that someone is out there.
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Date: Sun, Jun 07, 1998 at 12:52:23 (EST)
From: mark
Email: None
To: ablondi
Subject: ablondi's have more fun !
Message:
you seem to be speaking from a
clean well integrated perspective
why not elaborate/express your self more !
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Date: Fri, Jun 05, 1998 at 21:12:17 (EST)
From: Sir David
Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com
To: Jim
Subject: Bits , pieces and a mystery.
Message:
No Jim, I've got nothing to back this up or to prove it. First before you say that that's the end of it let's just remember one thing - it is possible to pick holes in everything and in the end, the only thing that can be proved to oneself without any doubt is the fact, 'I think therefore I am'. Cogito ergo sum (I think).

I mean by this that if I showed you two doctors who told you that their patient had described their rescusitation in detail, that would not amount to proof. After all, they could be lying. If the rescusitation was filmed and the guy brought back and then when he came round he described exactly what had happened and it was all captured on video without a break; you could say it was just a trick.

I don't think such a thing as an OBE can be proved beyond all doubt especially if someone's mind is closed to the possibility. But if it happened to you, would you still think it was an hallucination? I think the possibility of an OBE is one of the most significant possibilities to hit mankind. It's very difficult to prove an hallucination just as it's difficult to prove an OBE. Ok if it's impossible to prove either beyond reasonable doubt and these OBE phenomena keep happening then rather than discount them as all complete rubbish, I think it's worth scrutinising these phenomena in order to get more data to work with and make a valued judgement.

I have done this and I've come to the conclusion that the anecdotal evidence does point in favour of an OBE being a distinct possibility. For me to assume the opposite and discount them would mean I would have to believe that all the doctors and medical staff who've validated an OBEer's experience, must all be lying and conspiring to perpetrate a fraud. I don't feel that's the case.

Now regarding your tunnel. There is a phenomenon called tunnel vision which happens when a person is losing consciousness. Astranauts put into centrifuges often experience it just before blacking out. Ithink this is just a red herring. I wasn't talking about tunnels but rather people seeing their body from the outside. But I was told by my (step) sister about her OBE which she had when she had a difficult and dangerous labour when giving birth. She said that she suddenly found herself looking at a woman in terrible distress and pain and was thinking, 'Oh that poor woman'. Then it dawned on her that the woman she was looking at was herself. She was looking at herself from outside of her body. Then she looked up toward the corner of the birth room and saw a very, very bright light. In her own words she said that this light was incredibly bright but it didn't hurt her eyes. She felt herself drawn towards the light and it made her feel very happy and peaceful.

She just wanted to go into that light. But she looked back at herself and saw that she'd just given birth to a baby girl. She decided not to go into the light and felt herself back in her body again. Now my sister was not a woman who would just make this up. She was a very practical and down to earth woman. She wasn't a premie either. And this light was not an electric light but THE light. Well she's gone now. She had a lot to do bringing up two children before she saw that light again. In her own words, she's on a different plane now. This is what she told her husband months after her death. But I don't expect you to believe that, Jim. But perhaps other people will find it intersting and maybe even a comfort. I know I did.
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Date: Fri, Jun 05, 1998 at 22:17:48 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Sir David
Subject: Bits , pieces and a mystery.
Message:
David,

I mean by this that if I showed you two doctors who told you that their patient had described their rescusitation in detail, that would not amount to proof. After all, they could be lying. If the rescusitation was filmed and the guy brought back and then when he came round he described exactly what had happened and it was all captured on video without a break; you could say it was just a trick.

That WOULD be proof, albeit perhaps still not conclusive (witness 'Alien Atutopsy'). But whee are these doctors? I don't get it, do you actually know of any who say thusly? What do they say and where do they say it? What observations did the unconscious patient supposedly make? There's nothing here to consider. Too close to a pig in a poke and, in this case, the pig's got wings.

I have done this and I've come to the conclusion that the anecdotal evidence does point in favour of an OBE being a distinct possibility. For me to assume the opposite and discount them would mean I would have to believe that all the doctors and medical staff who've validated an OBEer's experience, must all be lying and conspiring to perpetrate a fraud. I don't feel that's the case.

Again, just what is it you're referring to having done? What data?

This is what she told her husband months after her death. But I don't expect you to believe that, Jim. But perhaps other people will find it intersting and maybe even a comfort. I know I did.

Mediums were a major drawing room fad at the turn of the century. A whole lot of people were sending their love from the other side. What happened to them all? Did Maharaji tell even the deceased to stop giving satsang?

David, it could be 'a comfort' to know that we live in a world of ghosts with souls eternal and all that but, really, isn't it more likely than not that that simply isn't true? Think of all the other areas of superstition that have been vanquished by science in the past many centuries. Why sohuld this be any diffeent? The one big unknown that's definite uncharted territory is the brain. Don't you think we're bound to discover a whole lot more of the things that go bump in the night as residing there? Will that be a comfort? Hard to say.
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Date: Sat, Jun 06, 1998 at 07:31:47 (EST)
From: Sir David
Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com
To: Jim
Subject: Proof of OBEs
Message:
Well I didn't expect you to believe it Jim, any more than you'd expect me to discount it as rubbish. The only evidence I have of doctors verifying a patient's OBE would be on video that I've taped off the TV. I can find some concrete evidence but it will take time. For now though, you may be interested in the web site of Doctor Melvin Morse who is a pediatrician and neuroscientist who has spent fifteen years studying the near death experiences (NDEs) of children.

His web site URL is http://www.intothelight.com/mission.html

I don't expect this to convince you of anything but is is something to chew on. In the meantime, I will look for some of the medically documented evidence of an OBE which I mentioned.
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Date: Sat, Jun 06, 1998 at 05:10:07 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: Sir David
Subject: communications after death
Message:
Dear David,

Some weeks after my father died I had a dream about him. Quite a few things happened in the dream to do with my family, then he said to me 'they wouldn't take me down there'.

Because this dream was very realistic (and the only one I had about him) and also very reassuring, I told my mother about it.
She was quite shocked. She said while he was dying they used to 'joke' privately - he had cancer and had a slow death - she asked him what he was afraid of, was he afraid of going 'down there?' (ie to hell)

No-one else knew anything about these conversations, especially me. There was no way I overheard anything like this being said by them. I have no such beliefs myself. It was very reassuring at that time.
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Date: Sat, Jun 06, 1998 at 07:29:27 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Judex
Subject: communications after death
Message:
In response to your story - which I believe represents something real (sorry Jim) - I want to tell you about my experiences with my dad. This is nothing as intense as what you relate, and I hear that it happens to a lot of people. My father died in 1989. He always smoked a particular kind of pipe tobacco. Sometimes I'll will smell his pipe tobacco really stongly for a few seconds, and feel like he's in the room. I know this could obviously be auto-suggestion, but it's still strange, and I do feel like he (0r someone) was there for a moment.
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Date: Sat, Jun 06, 1998 at 18:16:57 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: communications after death
Message:
I remember when I was 15 my girlfriends mom died. The night after the funeral, she was upset so I stayed over her house with her. we were up late talking and she suddenly said 'what the hell is that?' I looked up and there in the doorway was an opaque white figure. We compared notes, we were seeing the same thing. It didn't feel scary, we both thought it was her mom. We both saw it go away at the same time.
I'll never forget it. I'd like to hear a logical scientific explanation for it Jim. That's not a challenge I really would be curious to hear what you had to say.
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Date: Sat, Jun 06, 1998 at 18:56:43 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Selena
Subject: communications after death
Message:
Oh Selena, that's easy. That was just your reception. Or maybe it was your magellen proscuitto kicking in or something. Hell, girl, how do I know?

When I used to beleive in astrology I used to tell this story to impress. Once, when I lived on this little island, just before I got knowledge, I did acid. (Actually, a lot more than once, but this was 'once'). Anyway, I met these three people just as I was coming on and, such as people did then, I tried to guess their signs. I got the first one -- not bad. I got the second -- good. The third gave me pause, was she an X or a Y? I struggled bakc and forth, couldn't decide. Then I told her and she said that she was born on the cusp (between) the two! That, for me, was definitive proof that astrology was real and/or (I liked 'and') we were all telepathic.

Now, I KNOW that astrology is junk. Complete garbage. I say I know it because I think that's a fair statement. I'm aware enough of the laughable way it got here (laughable for us who take it seriously, not so much for the ancients who might be forgiven their pre-scientific superstition more easily) and I've seen it completely blown out of the water in all sorts of persuasive double-blind studies. So, now, from that vantage point, I have to ask myself what happened that early evening on Gabriola?

Is it likely that either I just guessed incredibly lucky (much as I liked astrology then I didn't know that the two signs were even contiguous) or enjoyed a psychedelicised heightened ability to read people? Yeah, I'd have to say it's got to be one of those. If the latter, what WAS that 'heightened' sense? Are we talking somethinhg supernatural or what? Hmm, I don't know.

So there it lies. A mystery. Does it mean that the world's supernatural? No, not in the least. I don't know what happened then but my bet is on the side of something that falls within the known universe, not outside.

Science is all about maintaining a disciplined attitude towards the unknown. Gotta leave some stuff for them to figure out in the next 20,000 years you know. It's okay to leave a few things unanswered. Religion -- or mysticism -- on the other hand, wants to fill in every last crook and nanny.
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Date: Sat, Jun 06, 1998 at 19:44:20 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: what i really really want
Message:
Yes Jim good point. We are crossing over again - whoops I just gave you a talk on astrology to 'impress' (myself), since I was feeling inadequate with the debate at hand..only to find you been there, done that.

Well, on that point, I been there done that with lots of stuff and they seemed to me like little ladders...some people managed to put in a few rungs that seemed to describe something quite rightly..but the further you look into it, they just Peter out. For example, you wouldn't need astrology if you could understand people. Why look at their chart when you can look at them?

So when I got to M I wanted something that I could not understand or explain. That was bigger than me, that was a way of having conscious contact with my higher power, in 12 steps terminology, not just believing but experiencing something. I would throw away all the maps just to get a ride in that car!

So as far as the inexplicable goes, I say, yes! If only I could have kept the mindset of an aspirant I would still be learning from Maharaji, no doubt. However in that example, I do agree with others who have said the enlightenment comes, supposedly, from the devotion, not the techniques. I agree whole heartedly. Just at the beginning of my knowledge session, when Maharaji began to show the techniques, I felt a flash of ANGER! After all that time and preparation and longing, he was going to show me a physical technique? Do this, then do that? in that moment, I felt cheated.

So part of me knew and believed that M was imparting knowledge to me, and that there was no 'way' as such.

So I guess one answer to the M riddle is that he has lost touch with his own truth and divinity at the moment and therefore his followers are not getting the right 'reception'. Would you consider that a possiblity? Just being as playful as I can, for such a serious person (Saturn on the North Node).
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Date: Sat, Jun 06, 1998 at 20:52:43 (EST)
From: Sir David
Email: David.Studio57@tinternet.comb
To: Judex
Subject: And It Is Not Divine
Message:
I don't think Maharaji has lost his divinity. If he was divine once then he still is now. Or, he never was divine. Our royals in Britain are sometimes considered divine by some people. They are certainly exalted to being above ordinary people. Just after Princess Diana died, her two sons went on a walk about and handshaking excersise amongst a small crowd of carefully selected royal enthusiasts. This was purely done as a PR excersise for the cameras.

It reminded me of darshan. People were shouting, 'We love you William! We love you Harry' and some were in tears. People were getting blissed out at being so close to the two young princess and you could see the love that they had for them. And yet these two boys had rarely been seen in public and none of the crowd of well wishers had ever met them before. All Prince Harry had to do was smile and say 'Thank you' and some dear lady would collapse into tears in the crowd.

Now I don't think that all this is a bad thing. It's good to have figure-heads and it does give people a group identity. In Britain the mourning of the loss of Princess Diana was a truly national and heartfelt phenomenon. Even we couldn't believe the depth of feeling we felt for her and how the whole country was tranformed in that week after her death. There was so much love flowing at that time that you felt it was perfectly safe to walk the streets at night, even in the usual no-go areas.

So I think that figure heads are a good thing because they help to unite people. But the figure heads themselves are not divine. Diana, in her death was raised to the status of a saint. That's a natural human tendency when people grieve. Why, even when President Nixon died I never heard a bad word said about him in the media. But all this is just projection onto a figurehead, of people's emotions. In a way, a figurehead reflects more the people who look up to it, rather than the person themself. A wise figurehead will understand this and follow a 'code' of conduct which is in harmony with the people. Diana did this well. She was an expert at being what the people wanted her to be. But she knew she wasn't divine.

Maharaji was a good figurehead for a while but he lost it somewhere along the way. He did not follow the 'code' that I talked about above but rather berated those who looked up to him. He didn't realise that it was his followers that made him great. How many before him have made the same mistake?
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Date: Sat, Jun 06, 1998 at 22:41:35 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Sir David
Subject: And It Is Not Divine
Message:
David I don't know about Maharaji being a 'good figurehead' in the sense that he gave out a lot of promissory notes (personal god realization, imminent world peace) to sustain a bullshit trip. But I do think you're quite right about the whole figurehead/darshan thing. But whn you said:

Why, even when President Nixon died I never heard a bad word said about him in the media

it got me thinking. Maybe an even greater example of that would have been John Denver. (That's a bit of a joke. Well, at least I liked it. Sorry, John. If you're offended, let Katie know and she can email me.)
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Date: Sun, Jun 07, 1998 at 00:24:57 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: And It Is Not Divine
Message:
Jim, I know you're trying to be funny, but I told you those experiences in confidence NOT on the forum, and they're not a joking matter to me. So cut it out, please.
Thanks,
Katie
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Date: Sun, Jun 07, 1998 at 10:36:28 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: all
Subject: Communications with the dying
Message:
I just read my message from last night, and I want to clarify that I'm not receiving any messages from John Denver in the great beyond. The reason I got upset with Jim is because he once asked me (via e-mail) if I'd had any spiritual or unexplainable experiences. I have had two, and they both involved people who were dying: my father (who was in a coma), and my friend Sam (who committed suicide). I really felt that both these people were communicating with me telepathically (clairvoyantly? not sure of right word) around the time of their death.

This is not an uncommon experience - in fact I've read about it in numerous books and autobiographies that weren't written by people who considered themselves 'spiritual' or 'new age'.

As far as the experience that I described of sensing my father's presence at time (smelling pipe tobacco, etc.) - EVERYONE in my family has the same experience. I think that's really common, and I don't know how 'unexplainable' it is, either.

Anyway, the reason I got a tad upset with Jim is because the experiences with both my father and Sam were very personal and significant to me, aren't something I want to discuss on the forum (other than to say that they happened), and aren't something that I want to joke about. I don't even care if I 'made them up' or not - they are still significant to me. (In other words, Jim, I'm willing to admit that the experiences MIGHT have been self-generated, but I don't care.)
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Date: Sun, Jun 07, 1998 at 12:54:24 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: bad communication w Katie
Message:
Katie,

What?? I wasn't even thinking about our email discussion about this way back then, I was just commenting on your own post to Judex yesterday morning, the one where you said:

In response to your story - which I believe represents something real (sorry Jim) - I want to tell you about my experiences with my dad. This is nothing as intense as what you relate, and I hear that it happens to a lot of people. My father died in 1989. He always smoked a particular kind of pipe tobacco. Sometimes I'll will smell his pipe tobacco really stongly for a few seconds, and feel like he's in the room. I know this could obviously be auto-suggestion, but it's still strange, and I do feel like he (0r someone) was there for a moment.


Are you saying I CAN'T reply to this because we once discussed the subject privately?

Katie, I will never forgive you for this. Never!
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Date: Sun, Jun 07, 1998 at 16:01:07 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: bad communication with Jim
Message:
Jim,

OK don't forgive me, see what I care....

Seriously, you did NOT understand what I was saying in my post that you quoted. I did NOT say that the experiences that I have had of 'feeling' that my dad is present were all that unusual, or that they are necessarily something that is proof of life after death. Ask anyone you know who has had someone close to them die. I think that it's a common human experience.

The other experiences I had WERE unusual, and were something that I think might mean that the person who dies stays around for a little while afterwards. But, as I said, I don't care whether it means that or not.

Katie
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Date: Sun, Jun 07, 1998 at 21:09:48 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: never forgive?
Message:
Katie, I will never forgive you for this. Never!

Jim, that is a pretty heavy statement. Would you explain to me what I am never going to be forgiven for? Maybe I am dense, but it wasn't clear in your post.
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Date: Mon, Jun 08, 1998 at 02:24:49 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: never forgive?
Message:
Katie, I was just kidding. But I still don't see what you were upset about. You posted something that suggested, to me anyway, that you think it's possible for us to sense or even have some contact with the dead. So what's the problem if I comment on that? Still don't get it..
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Date: Mon, Jun 08, 1998 at 08:27:13 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: forgive?
Message:
Well, I am glad you were just joking. I thought so, but sometimes it's hard to tell on the net.

I guess I objected to you making a joke about me being in touch with John Denver because the only people that I've mentioned having any kind of (supposed) communication with after death were people I was close to. I still feel some grief about their deaths, thus it's not something I want to joke about. I hope you can understand that.

And actually, Jim, it is not something I really want to analyze on the forum. As I said earlier, I did have those experiences, and they are valuable to me regardless of their origin. In other words, they're valuable to me even if I did just make them up. So I see no reason to discuss them.

Anyway, I'd rather talk about things like why GM cancelled the Seattle program. Think it had anything to do with the fact that we kept talking about it on the web site? (I guess Joe, Brian, VP and I had better be quiet about going to Chicago, then!)
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Date: Sun, Jun 07, 1998 at 04:40:09 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: John Denver
Message:
Dear Jim, don't you relate to John Denver's story?
I believe he was raised by a brutal father. Check out the glasses he wore - new age healers would say because of what he couldn't bear to see. (the movie Shine is a good example of that kind of father too)
So he becomes John Denver ands sings his hopeful songs...I loved a lot of them when I was a teenager (sorry if you think they're soppy but I thought he had a lot of spirit)
Then it all catches up with him and he becomes alcoholic/wife beater and loses his child.
He had been visiting them just before he died.
Don't you think that's a sad story, that he just couldn't make it through his own pain to be able to enjoy the love and comfort of a family?
I felt that he just gave up - lost the will to live, whatever.(very subjective feeling, naturally)
I hope someone makes his story one day.
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Date: Sun, Jun 07, 1998 at 04:32:24 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: Sir David
Subject: And It Is Not Divine
Message:
He didn't realise that it was his followers that made him great. How many before him have made the same mistake?
Yes it must have been very tempting for his father to teach the little boy that he had the 'divine right' through his lineage. That is the problem with lineages. Surely he must have been taught from the start this way of thinking. I feel that he, as an adult, having become disillusioned with his own self and behaviour (or for example someone mentioned him going through a hard time in his marriage) - there must have been a point when he saw that he was only too mortal. Surely he must know, and I believe he does, that he only reflects for people who cannot see it themselves, their own divinity.
Even the premie psychiatrist in our area said a while back he believes M shows us a part of ourselves. But we can't see it in ourselves, and we certainly don't feel that devotion to ourselves.It's the old/new age concept of what love is too, what we worship in the beloved is a part of ourselves which is perhaps unexpressed/unexpressable, or that we experience as missing from us.
So he knows that, I believe. I've seen that tolerance in him, that patience. Not the glaring look of the ego-maniac or psychotic.
I believe he worships his concept of a higher divinity, and not himself.
He believes he is fortunate to have a gift, to be able to teach people, perhaps to be able to focus our love so that we could feel a higher vibration of love.
I don't know but I agree totally with what you are saying.
It's sad that his closest companions must know the truth about him, and still worship him. I wonder how they do that.
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Date: Sun, Jun 07, 1998 at 04:41:22 (EST)
From: carol
Email: None
To: Judex
Subject: And It Is Not Divine
Message:
I think you are right about M. Wouldn't it be cool if we all could see the divinity and the humanity in ourselves and eachother!?!
carol
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Date: Sun, Jun 07, 1998 at 05:09:15 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: carol
Subject: To Carol
Message:
Wouldn't it be cool if we all could see the divinity and the humanity in ourselves and eachother!?!
Carol sometimes i get a real high, not in a bad sense but inspired, filled with happiness, from reading here, just when someone says something you really need to hear, or when someone says something you think is spot on, or introduces a way of thinking you're not too good at...it's like being in a big family and I really like it. I think we are all pretty cool.
I am off to do a little light reading...there's an article in this mag I bought called 'How the internet can ruin your life' ...
Better be prepared for any eventuality I guess!
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Date: Sat, Jun 06, 1998 at 22:35:44 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Judex
Subject: What is really true
Message:
So I guess one answer to the M riddle is that he has lost touch with his own truth and divinity at the moment and therefore his followers are not getting the right 'reception'. Would you consider that a possiblity?

Judex,

'Possibility's an easy club to join. But is it likely? You've got to be kidding. Maharaji was a little boy who assumed the leadership of a superstitious cult after the cult leader, his father, died. You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. (I've never said that before, I don't think. Whatever, it fits).
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Date: Sat, Jun 06, 1998 at 20:34:57 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: communications after death
Message:
Well all I know is we both saw the same thing and talked about it as it was happening. And I think people here know I am not much into all the hippy dippy stuff. And we weren't stoned on anything (that night at least - or I wasn't - who knows what she was up to)
Actually I do remember us both taking acid on a different day months earlier and her telling me feathers were coming out of my mouth and as soon as she said it I saw them. Maybe she was some kind of powerful hypnotist without even knowing it. It's as good an explanation as any. I wish I could solve the mystery of that night. It still 'haunts' me. You know the hypnotic suggestion thing is starting to make sense. Damn!! I really thought I had seen a ghost. Look what this forum is doing to me!
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Date: Sat, Jun 06, 1998 at 21:07:06 (EST)
From: Sherlock Cheese-Holmes
Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com
To: Selena
Subject: communications after death
Message:
Now what was it that my Victorian counterpart used to say?

After you have eliminated the impossible then what is left is the truth, no matter how implausable.

Well there's something else worth remembering - that the simplest explaination is probably the correct one. I say you saw a ghost or spirit (i don't like the term ghost). By a spirit, I mean a person who is existing on another plane or vibrational wavelength. On their plane they are as real as you or I but to us they appear only semi-real. Well that's what I think and nobody can prove otherwise.
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Date: Sat, Jun 06, 1998 at 21:37:46 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: Cheesy Poofs
Subject: communications after death
Message:
Bet you never thought of that name? It takes a unique type to be into South Park at my age. but then , I happen to know without a doubt that I was born 10 years too early.
Anyway, thanks!! I like what you said. Sometimes we can explain things away and they shouldn't go away. M wouldn't have captured so many followers if there wasn't something in us that got sick of being so very rational all the time.
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Date: Sat, Jun 06, 1998 at 22:15:41 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Selena
Subject: Minor unexplained mystery
Message:
In the late seventies, I worked for a civil engineering company on the survey crew. When we 'did topography' one of the elements was locating underground utility pipes which serviced peoples' houses, such as gas and water lines. The crew chief was an old timer and he taught me how to dowse for them by using two 'L' shaped brass welding rods which would turn inward when I was over a pipe.

We would then dig around and find the valve or whatever which would confirm the existence and position of the pipe. Worked every time and drove the engineers nuts when I teased them for an explanation. I'm sure some unknown scientific principle is involved here, just waiting to do be exposed. Anyway it was fun and sort of mysterious in a field dominated by left brain thinking.
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Date: Sat, Jun 06, 1998 at 22:53:30 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: Minor unexplained mystery
Message:
Gerry,

There's a whole body of literature that handily debunks dowsing. Books and articles. Do a web search, you'll probably find some links to various Skeptical Inqurier articles. Sorry. (?)
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Date: Sat, Jun 06, 1998 at 23:52:55 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Minor unexplained mystery
Message:
There's a whole body of literature that handily debunks dowsing. Books and articles. Do a web search, you'll probably find some links to various Skeptical Inqurier articles. Sorry. (?)

I'm sure there is, and I'll read some of it. It does work as I described it. I don't know the mechanism involved but why shouldn't it turn out to be one of those unknown capacities of the human brain (body, organism)?

It was very accurate, we did it on a daily basis, dozens of times. Interestingly, in a four man crew, only two of us could produce consistent results, i.e. find the metal pipe. Myself and the old Dutchman.

We didn't consider it mystical, or even that unusual. It was just a very pragmatic and inexpensive (and quick) way of getting the work done. How can this be 'debunked'?
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Date: Sun, Jun 07, 1998 at 12:56:58 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Dowsing debunked-Found it!
Message:
The final explanation for the dowsing dilemma:

From the Skeptical Inquirer, Vol. 69, page 54

The dowser's stick itself, of course, is merely wood, just like
the Ouija board. Yet it is difficult to deny that there is
frequently a living power behind it -- an independent, personal
spirit entity that demands one to inquire of it if one wishes
success. And few who are familiar with the facts surrounding the
potential consequences of using a Ouija board would venture to deny that this power is evil.


It's clear to me now:

THE DEVIL MADE ME DO IT!!!!!
click here to understand Jim SpunkyDeBunker
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Date: Sun, Jun 07, 1998 at 13:22:09 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: Dowsing debunked-Found it!
Message:
Gerry,

The guy's a clever, but shifty, jerk to be saying most of what he's saying. I've looked at a lot of skeptical / debunking material and it's MUCH more honest than he makes out. So what do you call a person that maligns the integrity of all his 'opponents' in order to descredit their work? Charming? Funny? Cute?

The image of the 'crotchety old white men in lab coats with secret, industry-fueled Swiss bank accounts' who stupidly, callously 'pretend' to be scientists when they're really just impotent, party-poopers, the eternal 'Mr. Wilson's to all the perky, open-minded Dennis the Menaces of the world, is decidedly unfair. To the contrary, a lot of the people bothering to stand up for a little plain, old truth these days are the real heroes in the story. Carl Sagan was a hero. You should read 'Demon Haunted World'. So should your guy here. That would wipe this smug, undeserved grin off his face.

On the other hand, Gerry, I know you're just fucking around. So there!
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Date: Sun, Jun 07, 1998 at 13:36:23 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Dowsing debunked-Found it!
Message:
On the other hand, Gerry, I know you're just fucking around. So there!

Oh really? I'm dead. Serious.

PS did you actually read past the first paragraph of Spunky's spewing?? Why? Glad I didn't.

...the eternal 'Mr. Wilsons to all the perky, open-minded Dennis the Menaces of the world, is decidedly unfair.

God I love this line! Jim you gotta write a book soon!

PPS About the Feather spewing trick: Moe Howard beat you to it. Maybe you were having a Three Stoogies flashback.
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Date: Sun, Jun 07, 1998 at 14:46:08 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Dowsing debunked-Found it!
Message:
Now that I've read the whole of my own link, I can see that what this guy is saying DOES apply to a lot of skeptics, for example, Martin Gardiner. There are extremists on both ends of the spectrum and YOU, Jim, have to admit to some reactive tendencies in your own thinking.

... So what do you call a person that maligns the integrity of all his 'opponents' in order to descredit their work? Charming? Funny? Cute

Answer: I think you could easily call them ''professional skeptics''. Some of these guys are so narrow minded and malignant they appear to be infected by some sort of ''emotional plague'' which they hope to spread through their vociferous and bitter writings.

They offset, and are a perfect foil to the 'true believer' mindset which still want to believe in Santa Claus and the Easter bunny. I contend that neither extreme serve the truth and reality will be found somewhere in the middle.

Talk about polarities in thinking. For every 'Yes', there is a 'No'.
Hello, Goodbye,

Gerry
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Date: Sun, Jun 07, 1998 at 15:38:13 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: Oh yeah?
Message:
Now that I've read the whole of my own link, I can see that what this guy is saying DOES apply to a lot of skeptics, for example, Martin Gardiner. There are extremists on both ends of the spectrum and YOU, Jim, have to admit to some reactive tendencies in your own thinking.

Gerry,

Can you give me some examples that support your criticism of Gardner? I don't see it but then, again, that's 'reactive tendenvies' for you. Care to explain what that means too?
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Date: Sun, Jun 07, 1998 at 22:15:37 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Yeah!
Message:
I think Gardner's shallow and shabby treatment of Wihelm Reich's life work is an excellent example. Should I elaborate? I studied WR's work intently for several years, and Gardner's dismissive pooh poohing is hardly an indepth analysis.

Did he (G) every look into a microscope and see for him self what Reich meant? I did. Did he work with the energetic devices Reich invented and test them for himself? I did. Did he subject himself to Reichian therapy to see for himself? I did (but that's another story for another time and I'd be glad to talk about that too) Did he even read Reich's books? I did and I can tell you that IMHO he barely scratched the surface before making his pronouncements in a demeaning and ridiculing manner.

To me this alone casts doubt on his ability to examine things objectively and without prejudice. This is the problem I have with the whole spectrum of people who have made a name and a living for themselves as professional critics and debunkers. They have an attitude and an opinion, or say, a reputation which is more important to them than the truth.

As I said, I studied Reich's work for years. I finally concluded that while he was wrong in many ways and may have been a bastard in his personal life, he was indeed a pioneer, a trail blazer in many respects and the world is a different place because of him . For that sneering piss ant gardiner (what has he ever accomplished?) to dismiss a person's life work which has had a great affect on some aspects of modern thinking is grating to me and shows the egotistical and shallow depth of his 'criticism.'

I say 'reactive' in the sense that you seem to respond to these things in a characteristic manner that seems every bit as 'programmed' in some respects as a 'true believer'. Hope that's not too harsh and I don't mean it as a personal indictment, but just an observation, based on admittedly skimpy evidence. I'd be delighted to be prove wrong.

That said, could you respond to my previous post where I said re dowsing: We didn't consider it mystical, or even that unusual. It was just a very pragmatic and inexpensive (and quick) way of getting the work done. How can this be 'debunked'?
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Date: Mon, Jun 08, 1998 at 10:12:07 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Gardner, minor retraction
Message:
I did a search on Gardner and he does have a significant body of work out there, mostly puzzle books on mathematics and 'everyday science' type of books as well as his 'debunking' books. I still can't forgive him for his wretched treatment of Reich.
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Date: Sun, Jun 07, 1998 at 23:35:09 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: Dowsing debunked-Found it!
Message:
Don't know if you are still reading here Gerry, but we have friend who own an orchard. They have only recently purchased it and have had a dowser come out and find underground irrigations systems. and it worked. It's a weird one. The explanations don't really matter do they? The fact that it works is amazing enough!
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Date: Mon, Jun 08, 1998 at 00:14:41 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: Selena
Subject: Reikii
Message:
I was thinking last night about Reikii. Some things like the dowsing, you just do and you don't think, wow, this is outside of the known laws of physics or whatever (not that it seems anything would be that far out these days!)

I 'did' Reikii 15 years ago. I was 'initiated' in a process which involved the master performing symbols on my aura. All I know is, after I undertook the initiations, I could feel energy tingling in my fingers when I put them on myself or another person. another name for it is 'hands on healing'.

I never felt this kind of thing before. Now it seems normal. If I have a sore neck and I place my hand there for a while, the vertebrae 'pop' back into place. Energy tunnels out of my muscles into my hands, I feel it. It's kind of pleasant.

Our teacher said it probably won't cure major illnesses like cancer. I tried it on my dad, actually and felt this incredible burning hot energy come out of his cancer, but it didn't heal him. But it definitely works to the extent of creating tunnels of spiralling kind of energy which flow into my hands and which I feel, sometimes hot or cold, usually just like bubbles rising to the surface of water. I did it on a skeptic once, just put my hands on her back, and all her vertebrae were 'popping'. She could feel the energy coming out of her. She was absolutely amazed.

I've never done it professionally and I've never really tried to heal anything specific with it, but I just naturally put my hands where it is needed, eg on my chest if I have an infection. Often it's the first time I find out I have a mild infection. Also, when I used to smoke dope, I would put my hands on my head and become straight after about 10 mins. then I would smoke more dope. It seems to normalise whatever condition (in a fairly light-weight sort of way).

You didn't have to undergo any beliefs at all - it's a physcial initiation. I believe it may be based on electro-magnetic currents. The Reikii 'master' who intiated me said they tune your aura into your own particular healing 'channel' to the universal life force that everyone has naturally anyway.

I don't know what it is, but it's something.
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Date: Mon, Jun 08, 1998 at 01:35:02 (EST)
From: Joy
Email: Bluebirdd@aol.com
To: Judex
Subject: Reikii
Message:
That's real interesting, Judex. I always wondered what Reiki was about, now it makes me a little more likely to try having it done.

I'd be interested to know what anybody thinks of the crop circle phenomenon? I'm really fascinated by this. There's a good web site, [sorry, I don't know how to link it]

http://www.nh.ultranet.com/~lovely/education.html

which has lots of interesting info and some of the latest formations, they're getting more and more complicated and coming out as complex geometry patterns, something that would be very difficult (if not impossible) to hoax.

David? Got an opinion on this? This is my favorite 'paranormal' phenomenon of the moment. (Just don't tell me it was done by Doug and Dave!!)
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Date: Mon, Jun 08, 1998 at 08:32:40 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Judex
Subject: Reikii
Message:
Judex -
I had several sessions of Reikii work done by a woman who was really good at it, and I thought it was very healing. We were working on psychological healing, not physical. Like any other therapy system, I really think it depends on the skill of the practitioner. It sounds like you ARE really good at it, BTW - wish you lived around here.

Fondly,
Katie

P.S. The woman who did it to me told me that I would be good at it too - that I had 'healing hands'. Wonder if that's true or not?
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Date: Sat, Jun 06, 1998 at 22:51:37 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Selena
Subject: communications after death
Message:
M wouldn't have captured so many followers if there wasn't something in us that got sick of being so very rational all the time.

Yeah, Selena, but is that a strength or a weakness?
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Date: Sat, Jun 06, 1998 at 22:50:08 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Sherlock Cheese-Holmes
Subject: reasoning with a living David
Message:
Well there's something else worth remembering - that the simplest explaination is probably the correct one. I say you saw a ghost or spirit (i don't like the term ghost). By a spirit, I mean a person who is existing on another plane or vibrational wavelength

David, I agree with the first thing you say but hardly the second. What do you mean, the simplest explanation is that she actually saw a ghost? What's simple about that? It defies all sorts of natural laws as we undersatnd them. No way, fella. The simplest explanation is that she THOUGHT she saw a ghost.

Hey, I have another story too.

Once, at a cool beach restaurant in Malibu I saw a magician do the most amazing trick. He came up to our table, took one of my dollar bills, crumpled it into a ball and made it float right in front of my eyes! Then he took my wine glass as well as my friend's and cupped them around the floating ball so we could see what we already knew so cleary, that there were literally no strings attached. It was amazing.

Now, tell me, do you think that was 'real' magic or just a good trick? If it weren't for the fact that this is the late 20th centurey and I'm familiar with the profession of magic, I'd SWEAR that he really did what he appeared to do. But now?
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Date: Sun, Jun 07, 1998 at 04:58:27 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Proof
Message:
What do you mean, the simplest explanation is that she actually saw a ghost? What's simple about that? It defies all sorts of natural laws as we undersatnd them

Jim, you could be 'seeing' things and 'sensing' things etc with senses that are non/physical. How could you possibly 'prove' their existence with physical tools?
Huh?????
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Date: Sun, Jun 07, 1998 at 08:11:14 (EST)
From: Sir David
Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com
To: Jim
Subject: reasoning with a living Jim
Message:
That was a good trick. I wonder how he did it? A magnet in the dollar bill? Or perhaps a miniture helium balloon? But he was a trained magician.

With Selena's ghost story there don't appear to have been any trained magicians around at the time. I wasn't there and I do agree that it COULD have been a trick of the light. My central heating sytem needs repairing and at present makes a banging noise in different parts of the house. Sometimes I tell unwary people that the banging is a ghost and watch the colour drain from their face. Before they run out of the house in terror I tell them I'm only joking and it's the central heating.

I agree that people are suggestive to putting paranormal explainations to ordinary events. But when there is no clear evidence that it is an ordinary event, you are left with the seemingly impausable. Now in my opinion, two people both hallucinating a ghost at the same time is very unlikely. More likely that it WAS a ghost. I see you nodding in agreement, yes?
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Date: Sun, Jun 07, 1998 at 12:58:34 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Sir David
Subject: reasoning with a living Jim
Message:
Now in my opinion, two people both hallucinating a ghost at the same time is very unlikely. More likely that it WAS a ghost. I see you nodding in agreement, yes?

David,

That's really funny. I'll have to remember to argue like that. Cute.

No, David, it is NOT most likely that it was a ghost. There, we settled that. Right? Good! Let's move on.
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Date: Sun, Jun 07, 1998 at 13:11:25 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: reasoning with a living Jim
Message:
Colin Wilson says there could be, probably are , may be ghosts. So THAT settles it. And he's from England. Cornwall in fact.
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Date: Sun, Jun 07, 1998 at 13:19:34 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: reasoning with a living Jim
Message:
Well I asked for a Jim explanation after all! I loved the astrology story.
Still not convinced one way or another Jim.. It seemed very real - a trick of light could explain something but it never happened again and it had this shape to it and we had just gone to the funeral.
I really don't have an explanation for that one.
Probably never will. The feathers are a different matter :)
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Date: Fri, Jun 05, 1998 at 10:58:10 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: Flotsam, jetsom and truth
Message:
Science itself suffers from a massive delusion.
There is a Fact that scientists are generally loath to consider.
Todays scientific facts are tomorrows outdated fictions or are at least incomplete , which amounts to 'non-facts'.
And the real pioneers are rarely scientists who are mostly paranoid about being seen as politically correct and scientifically 'sane' , but rather those who are free to walk the ways of free and unhindered research and who are often the unsung hero's of futures yet to be.


Keith, besides spouting just the right amount of nonsense to prove that you really don't know shit about science, you're also falling prey to a temptation apparently irresistable to many new-agers like yourself: ugly, ill-founded prejudice.

How many scientists do you know, Keith? In particular, how many stupid, paranoid ones? How much time have you spent learning what they're all about, wht they know, what they're working on? Really, this is just such a cheap shot, I'm surprised you haven't learned better. I guess reading a bunch of new age blather is more fun, cheaper and easier -- much easier -- than really learning a discipline. Why not trash the people that take the hard road and actually apply themselves instead of just graze indisciminately at new age bookstores? (Now before you accuse me of throwing around unfair stereotypes myself, I can tell you I KNOW those people. Tons of them. How well? Well enough; I 've been one myself).

No, I'm not impressed.
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Date: Fri, Jun 05, 1998 at 11:39:39 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Keith
Subject: Bits , pieces and a mystery.
Message:
Keith wrote:
Science itself suffers from a massive delusion.
There is a Fact that scientists are generally loath to consider.
Todays scientific facts are tomorrows outdated fictions or are at least incomplete, which amounts to 'non-facts'.


Dear Keith,
I don't disagree with all you said per se, but I wanted to say a few things:

First, I don't like it when people make generalizations about 'scientists'. I am a scientist, my husband is a scientist, my father was a scientist, and I know many other scientists who have varying beliefs about 'non-scientific' phenomena.

I was more awed and more convinced of the existence of a 'higher power' when I learned about the incredible structure and order of the molecular universe, than by anything I had read in spiritual texts. I am not saying that everyone would feel the same way - but I did.

Secondly, I think most competent scientists would agree that some of 'today's scientific facts are tomorrow's outdated fictions'. Some scientist do hang on to old ways of looking at things (for example - not believing in plate tectonics), but they are in the minority. My father used to say that mathmematics was the only discipline that didn't become outdated every ten years or so.

I don't think much of any scientific researcher who claims what they are saying is the absolute truth - there is always more to learn, in any scientific discipline. Most scientists are fully aware of this, but choose to present the results of their research as a stepping stone to understanding.

I hope this clarifies a few things, or at least clarifies how I feel about a few things!
Regards from Katie
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Date: Fri, Jun 05, 1998 at 12:14:39 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Keith
Subject: URL
Message:
Hi Keith - the Brockwood Park URL you gave me is just a link to a web server - you probably need some additional information at the end of it to find the exact site. Thanks anyway. If you do come up with the URL, let me know.
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Date: Fri, Jun 05, 1998 at 15:43:53 (EST)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: David,Robyn,Jim and Katie
Subject: Science , etc
Message:
            Sir Cheese,(brie is my favorite!)
                      Proof is a strange creature.
    I cannot prove that I am imagining a particular thought .
    Nor can I prove that I am believing what I'm telling others I believe.
I could be lying.  We could all be lying.
    Where is the PROOF?
    I liked a movie....say for instance 'Dead Poets Society'
   ..but I cannot prove it to you.
Who cares?    You know what.....each person must know for him/her
self....what is what.   Why are we so gung ho about proof?
  A few years ago I was presented with an official letter from the
Australian Skeptics Society reminding me (as a practioner and researcher
into things metaphysical and psychic) that there was an ongoing offer of
30,000 dollars for anyone who could demonstrate psychic ability.
   After writing to the person who'd written the letter he took me out for
dinner with the intention of setting some ground rules for me being tested,
but I gave him a 'reading' which so pictured the very situation we were in ,
including the type of food we had ordered....that he never pursued matters.
   He experienced proof right then and there and was scared by it.
But who cares?
  I know what I know ....and what I know is that there is a great mystery
and I , as a human being , am smack bang in the center of it.
   And it is this mystery that permeates through life and gives existence
its special glow.
   WE are incredible.
   The rational mind is only one gift amongst many .
And it is this mystery , that for me , holds the promise of a future that
must be glorious because it will be the culmination of our own completion,
fulfillment and potential.
  A lover of mysteries is a mystic.
  Mystics are the true pioneers and open the doors for tomorrows science.
  It has always been that way...essentially.
  Physics is walking the road that mystics have trodden.
  Consciousness is ready for quantum leaps.
  Conservative science is a regressive power defending a type of status quo
that has rolled itself up into a womb-like place.....secure , dank, dark and
static.
   And btw, obe's (out of body experiences) are poorly understood by many
metaphysicians too ....because actually a person does not entirely leave the
body....but rather enters into an expanded realm of subtle matter(called by
some the astral body) and which
is still casing consciousness.   There is a type of astral cord connecting
the physical and the astral.  But really the astral is physical too....but
less dense (less mass).
  Because of this connection one can safely 'travel' vast distances from the
gross physical body(vehicle) and easily return.

  So how many people here have experienced obe's?
  Care to try and describe them?
  Don't be afraid of Jims responses.
  He is welcome to his nice little packaged world view.
  Let's be bold ....and share some mysteries!!!
       Thanks for your post David,
             Regards Keith

I typed the above 8 hours ago but could not post it then because my connection failed.
Having just read the above posts I shall add a few remarks.
Robyn, not much to say to you right now. We seem to be on the same type of track....open to all!
Jim and Katie, let me say , I am sorry to tar all scientists with the same brush....although I did exempt some physisists....
look, I know that there are scientists who offer in their own way a great deal.....there are scientists who are also mystics.....
but I was more referring to the general conservative trend of established science.....with its need for general respectability.
Katie, I didn't mean to offend you or your family or any particular scientist.
Jim, try reading books by Dr Ron Moody. There are others that I can suggest to you if you are interested but why not start with Moody.
Enough for now,
Keith
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Date: Fri, Jun 05, 1998 at 15:55:51 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: Science , etc
Message:
Keith,

I read Moody way back when. What's your point?

A few years ago I was presented with an official letter from the
Australian Skeptics Society reminding me (as a practioner and researcher
into things metaphysical and psychic) that there was an ongoing offer of
30,000 dollars for anyone who could demonstrate psychic ability.
After writing to the person who'd written the letter he took me out for
dinner with the intention of setting some ground rules for me being tested,
but I gave him a 'reading' which so pictured the very situation we were in ,
including the type of food we had ordered....that he never pursued matters.
He experienced proof right then and there and was scared by it.


Are you sure he was 'scared', Keith? What was his name? Come on tell me, I want to contact the Australia Skeptics and get his side of the story. See, Keith, the reason we need proof about things is because people are story tellers. We're prone to lie, exaggerate or simply pass along misinformation to one another. If you don't care about the truth, fine, enjoy your little fantasy playpen. if you do, then, you have to separate truth from bullshit.

See, Keith, if your story about your dinner host being isn't true, if he wasn't 'scared' like you say, wouldn't you like us all to know? Or would you prefer us to be mislead by you?
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Date: Fri, Jun 05, 1998 at 17:24:56 (EST)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Science , etc
Message:
Jim,
Firstly, my point in suggesting Moody is surely obvious.
But if I have to spell it out.
Dr Ron Moody and Elisabeth Kubler Ross and others have worked so intimately with the dying and have researched obe's extensively.

As for my dinner date with an Australian sceptic.....yes you could be right in questioning whether he was scared.....he might have just thought I was a nut.
But I doubt it. I had written him a very long letter and he admitted to me that I had impressed him with my logical reasoning.
Actually I don't know why he didn't follow things up . I even sent him a long follow up letter in which I shared some of my impressions of what had occured during our dinner date.
No response. Sound like anyone you know?

I bet you would like to hear his side of the story.
Perhaps you could discredit me .
But I see know reason to enter into childish games of one upmanship....via the dubious means of sceptics getting together and passing judgement on matters such as metaphysics.

And really what is important is something else.....such as the big WHY'S.
We are all psychic. The question is why? And how?
WE are all spiritual. The question is 'what does that mean?'
Throw away the words psychic and spiritual if you want .....I'm comfortable with that....but you are still left with a
great mystery. Life is not a formula . It's more than that.
Life is more than a mechanical evolution.

You can ask 'how do you know?' but we can all ask that.
And your answers are not facts ....they are at best 'factors'.
If you want an axiomatic FACT then look to your own presence .
And if you want to explore the FACT of your own Presence then open yourself to the forces ....the energies....the experiences , that co-exist within you . Would you disintegrate if you spend some time facing life without the mind reasoning everything away?

As I have said , science has its place but knowledge does not end at its borders.

I know metaphysical realities as true and real.
How?
I've lived them.
My proof? I know what I know. I know that I am in the midst of a wonderous mystery....and no objective science can at this time prove this to a sceptics satisfaction.
Life goes on. When we meet at the cafe at the end of the universe we'll see who is closer to the Truth and who was caught in the biggest illusion.
Which ever way , I'll shout you(buy you) a coffee.
Regards , Keith.
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Date: Sun, Jun 07, 1998 at 04:19:21 (EST)
From: carol
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: Science , etc
Message:
Well said Keith! Jim, I hope I may always retain flexibility and openness as new information comes to me from many sources. I prefer to think of our existence within our universe as having a purpose which we can create or discover; and endless possibility. May the unknown become known! I wish to believe as most people do that something in me never dies. If I'm wrong about that, I'll never know!
carol
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Date: Thurs, Jun 04, 1998 at 17:42:32 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Question
Message:
I'm into translating that page of the web-site:

History of DLM: A Psychologist's View
By Adam Bogacki, Psychologist, Sydney, Australia.

Do anybody know where it's coming from, who is A Bogacki, when it's been written, etc.
He also quotes some press interviews from the 70s, from Mishler and/or John Hand. Anybody having details ?
It's rather old, but his analysis it interesting to
some extent.

I don't like what he says about meditation (self-hypnosis).

Unless anybody knows something more interesting on the same issue?
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Date: Fri, Jun 05, 1998 at 08:11:46 (EST)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Question
Message:
Dear Jean-Michel,

I don't know any more than you but his most recent email address is;

afb2@peg.apc.org

Maybe he can tell you.

Regards

Richard
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Date: Fri, Jun 05, 1998 at 10:02:06 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: jmkahn@hol.fr
To: Richard
Subject: Question
Message:
who's eamil is this ?
John H. ?
A Bogakis ?

David Stirling, how can I get your email ?
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Date: Fri, Jun 05, 1998 at 10:45:55 (EST)
From: Richard
Email: r2harris@plymouth.ac.uk
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: email address
Message:
JM,

The email I sent you belongs to Adam Bogacki

Richard
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Date: Fri, Jun 05, 1998 at 10:53:00 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: D@vid Stirling's e-mail
Message:
Hello, Jean-Michel -
David Stirling's e-mail at his geocities site is:

expremie@geocities.com

I have reached him there, so it works.

Regards,
Katie
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Date: Thurs, Jun 04, 1998 at 13:19:08 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Why DON'T Premies Stay Around?
Message:
Jim raised an interesting point down below, and it's something I have noticed over the past year as well. Occasionally, premies post on the forum, engage in various levels of debate and discussion with ex-premies, and then, invariably, split. There are a couple of notable exceptions of people who have MOVED from the 'premie' to the 'ex-premie,' or at least 'wavering-premie,' category who stick around for moral support, but the seeming die-hard devotees seem to go away and never come back to posting. Mili is the only exception I can think of, but I think Mili is really a unique premie, IMHO. He is so removed from the premie world, that he is hardly even a premie, IMHO.

So, why do you think that is? I tend to agree with Jim that in every premie is a suppressed, possibly very weak, desire to know the truth, and the premie on some level knows there is something very fishy, unsatisfying, and downright contradictory about BM and his cult. That part of them also knows that they really want to be free from it. They are scared by and attracted to that part of themselves at the same time. I can recall this feeling in myself as a premie. [I remember when Sophia Collier's book came out called 'Soul Rush' in about 1977. I got a copy of the book and took it somewhere, not around premies, and read it. It was like reading pornography. I was attracted, but felt guilty about reading it. If I had been a 'true devotee' I wouldn't have. I think this forum is much like that.]

This forum, I think, is pretty irresistible to a lot of premies for that reason. I think many premies read this forum on a regular basis but NEVER post. They can do this and retain the facade that they are still, at least tacitly, premies, because they have not ever allowed themselves to verbalize the doubts they feel. They also fear that BM or other premies will find out they DID post, and that is scary to them, since BM's cult is heavily built on fear. Hence, even the premies who DO post, by and large, are paranoid about not revealing who they are.

But some premies feel compelled to say something. They feel compelled to put ex-premies down, because it's all becomming too confronting and they need a rationale to explain why ex-premies could be saying things form personal experience that actually make logical sense.

Has any other ex-premie had the experience of being violently attacked (verbally at least) by a premie after expressing your true feelings about M? I sure have. And I think that's what the premies who post are doing. They are trying to defend their programmed trip, but the fact that they post is kind of a last-ditch attempt to hold the trip together. At least that's what I think. And when they see, in black and white, how little sense their defense makes, and how it's pulled apart by people who know all about BM and his trip from personal experience, they have to split. It becomes just too confronting.

Anyone have any views on this?
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Date: Thurs, Jun 04, 1998 at 15:57:41 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: JW
Subject: Why DON'T Premies Stay Around?
Message:
Dear JW,
I tend to agree with Jim that in every premie is a suppressed, possibly very weak, desire to know the truth, and the premie on some level knows there is something very fishy, unsatisfying, and downright contradictory about BM and his cult. That part of them also knows that they really want to be free from it. They are scared by and attracted to that part of themselves at the same time.

That has always been my impression of the premies that post as well as those that lurk only.

. They are trying to defend their programmed trip, but the fact that they post is kind of a last-ditch attempt to hold the trip together. At least that's what I think. And when they see, in black and white, how little sense their defense makes, and how it's pulled apart by people who know all about BM and his trip from personal experience, they have to split. It becomes just too confronting.

And yes I agree that this is probably why they split. What is the sense in staying unless they are glutens for punishment. Some stay long enough to suprize me and I wonder if any of them are here for directed or percieved 'service' so they put themselves in the firing line longer than is healthy. Otherwise I really am confused as to why they are here in the first place if their Master told them not to be on the Net. They listen or not depending on what, I don't understand that.
Robyn
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Date: Thurs, Jun 04, 1998 at 17:33:00 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Never leave any room .....
Message:
In premie language, I think you would finally
pull that 'don't leave any room for doubt in your mind'
as the excuse for leaving.
I totally agree with your analysis.
This Forum is pure mind ..... in other words.
How could you 'follow your heart' and confront such challenging
concepts ?

When your mind is in such a mess, to say it in real language,
what can you expect ?

At least you can think that that strange mindset is going to brake sooner or later, like it did for more than 90% of the people who one day received k.

I feel it's a very sad story.

And the BM is responsible for it.
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Date: Fri, Jun 05, 1998 at 00:14:14 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Why DON'T Premies Stay Around?
Message:
Some of the premies probably aren't around right now because they are checking out the world tour. I suspect that when that is over, more will be posting with a vengence, or not at all, due to 'orders' not to do so. Either way, I know they will be reading. Naughty is nice, after all.

I get the feeling that many of the premies who do post here have this sort of half-committed view of the BM trip. They don't really surrender. It's like their favorite TV show, or their favorite sport. It's a convenient kind of little hobby for them. Nice and hidden away for when they want/need it. Like a stash of drugs or something. It has been given a little respectability now (not too much though, sorry) with the suit and all that. It fits in nicely with the 'if it works for me, I do it' mentality. I could be wrong, but that is the impression that I have gotten from a few of the revisionist posters here.

They don't see it as a cult because that isn't how it fits into their lifestyle. I know that there are others (especially newcomers) who probably take it much more seriously. Maybe that is another reason they don't stick around. It isn't working for them at the moment.
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Date: Fri, Jun 05, 1998 at 01:17:27 (EST)
From: david f.
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Why DON'T Premies Stay Around?
Message:
JW, I don't have a really good explaination, except
* I really don't live on the web all that much, and
* sometimes I check in and don't find anything of interest or that I want to comment on.
perhaps others are similar, or simply find the site interesting or useful for only a short period of time.

best wishes, david f.
(p.s. hi again robyn.)
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Date: Fri, Jun 05, 1998 at 04:36:08 (EST)
From: Mirabai
Email: None
To: david f.
Subject: Why DON'T Premies Stay Around?
Message:
david f said 'JW, I don't have a really good explaination, except
* I really don't live on the web all that much, and
* sometimes I check in and don't find anything of interest or that I want to comment on.
perhaps others are similar, or simply find the site interesting or useful for only a short period of time'

I can relate to the essence of these words. I've enjoyed being challenged by this forum and it's been amazing to be introduced to so many people that were once involved with maharaji. I'd like to think that I am willing to look at what the truth is, no matter how I may or may not like it.

best regards Mirabai
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Date: Fri, Jun 05, 1998 at 10:45:17 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: david f.
Subject: Why DON'T Premies Stay Around?
Message:
Dear David F.,
I don't know that you will see this but I don't think you think of yourself as a premie, do you? I believe you are just saying why anyone might not stay around but there is a difference here, I think, premies are not supposed to be here, orders from the Master and they, from what little I've read of their posts can't seem to just get into a conversation, Keith came close in that he kept trying but then he was working on coming to terms with things that bothered him about the whole thing with M which is a big no, no for premies that want to stay 'in the fold'.
Robyn
Have a wonderful weekend, David.
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Date: Fri, Jun 05, 1998 at 07:46:03 (EST)
From: John Hammond-Smyth
Email: padded.cell@asylum.com
To: JW
Subject: Why DON'T Premies Stay Around?
Message:
Premies don't stay around because your heart are closed to the beauty and radience of Maharaji. Why would we want to polute ourselves with your minds. You are all in your minds and have not opened your hearts to the Lord of Love. No amount of debate is going to show you what we premies know - that Maharaji is the imparter of true knowledge and nobody can understand this unless they come with an open heart.

Amigo has made a valient effort to impress upon you about the need for the master but no, you think you know best. You obviously didn't surrender like I did. My doctors tell me that soon I'll be able to have my lobotomy and then I'll be free of my mind forever! How many here are willing to take such a step of surrender.

Our Lord, Maharaji once said that every time you think, you kick Maharaji in the teeth. Need I say more.
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Date: Fri, Jun 05, 1998 at 08:25:31 (EST)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: John Hammond-Smyth
Subject: I'm Thinking...
Message:
I knew I had a function.

THINK THINK THINK THINK THINK THINK THINK THINK THINK THINK
THINK THINK THINK THINK THINK THINK THINK THINK THINK THINK
THINK THINK THINK THINK THINK THINK THINK THINK THINK THINK
THINK THINK THINK THINK THINK THINK THINK THINK THINK THINK THINK THINK THINK THINK THINK etc...
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Date: Fri, Jun 05, 1998 at 10:41:09 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: John Hammond-Smyth
Subject: Why DON'T Premies Stay Around?
Message:
Dear John,
Yadda, yadda, yadda, I don't wish you ill but I don't even have to read your post to know what you have to say, it has been said so many times before and I leave it to the others to bang it about with you. Sorry you haven't been able to go to any of these recent events, don't you think festivals was a much better/nicer/more human term?
Robyn
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Date: Fri, Jun 05, 1998 at 11:14:29 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Robyn, are you serious?
Message:
Robyn,

Mayb'e I'M missing something, but can't you see that 'JHS' is just a joke?
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Date: Fri, Jun 05, 1998 at 12:13:48 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: Jim
Subject: Robyn, are you serious?
Message:
Dear Jim,
No silly, I was kidding!
Robyn
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Date: Fri, Jun 05, 1998 at 11:12:38 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: John Hammond-Smyth
Subject: Now that's funny
Message:
My doctors tell me that soon I'll be able to have my lobotomy and then I'll be free of my mind forever! How many here are willing to take such a step of surrender.

Our Lord, Maharaji once said that every time you think, you kick Maharaji in the teeth. Need I say more.


John,

That's really good but, I have to ask you, did Maharaji really say that? Like honestly, did he? When? Where? (Like, this thing is so dumb to start with, I have to admit I think it's actually possible. I can picture it.)
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Date: Fri, Jun 05, 1998 at 11:51:27 (EST)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Off Topic...Raja and Claudia
Message:
Hey Jim,

have I got you real-time? Can you help me with some info. I keep hearing about Raja Ji and Claudia and Maharaji. I was around Raja Ji for some time and figured him for 100% loyal if naive but I never heard anything about this. So what happened.

Regards

Richard
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Date: Fri, Jun 05, 1998 at 14:04:25 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Off Topic...Raja and Claudia
Message:
Richard,

I've told my little story a few times here but, in a nutshell, I met Raja Ji for a drink the day after I'd heckled him at a program in L.A. in the mid 80s. I'd stood up for a guy who Raja Ji was patronizingly brushing off. Raja Ji was trying to raise money for a place for Maharaji and this premie was confused about the special devotional relationship he wanted but which was no longer in fashion on Maharaji's world. Raja Ji told him to basically give the money and not worry about it. I stood up from the baack and told him that that was wrong as we'd all be trained to believe tah he and his family were divine. We went back and forth a bit (I must say, I was 'winning'. Maybe someone reading this was there and remembers. It was a program in the mid to late 80s in a hotel by LAX. Raja Ji analogized his childhood and that of his brother's to the movie 'The Last Emperor').

Anyway, I went up to the front after, introduced myself and Raja Ji seemed impressed that I'd gotten a law degree after the ashram. The next day, on his way back to Malibu after gettinh his haircut in Beverly Hills, he stoped by my office and we retired to the Red Robin downstairs for a drink (me, scothch, he, Perrier).

After a bit of small talk (Raja Ji bitched about the small stipend Maharaji gave him as an instructor then) we discussed Maharaji and all the changes to date. At first, Raja Ji encouraged me to consult with a couple of intiators he knew in the Malibu area who were 'really good at working with people confused by all the changes'. I told him that was ridiculous, I just wanted some answers. I got imaptient and said that it was his brother (i.e. Maharaji) I should be talking with, not him. He just looked at me for a moment, kind of expressing some resignation (like a salesman admitting that he just can't beat the competition) and offered that he himself had tried to ask Maharaji some of these questions (like who he thinks he is, for one) but that Maharaji wouldn't anser him either. His point was that it would be hopeless trying.
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Date: Fri, Jun 05, 1998 at 12:46:42 (EST)
From: John Hammond-Smyth
Email: padded.cell@asylum.com
To: Jim
Subject: Now that's funny
Message:
Maharaji said that about kicking him in the teeth etc during an initiator's conference he was hosting. I was told this by Arthur Brigham (Param Premanand) who was at the conference.
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Date: Fri, Jun 05, 1998 at 11:28:53 (EST)
From: Joy
Email: None
To: John Hammond-Smyth
Subject: Why DON'T Premies Stay Around?
Message:
I hope Maharaji has a good dentist lined up.

John H-S, you don't need a lobotomy, seems like you've already had one.
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Date: Fri, Jun 05, 1998 at 19:18:56 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: John Hammond-Smyth
Subject: Why DON'T Premies Stay Around?
Message:
Dear John Hammond-Smyth
Don't you think it takes a bit of an open heart and mind to put ourselves on the line as we do here, every day?

Sometimes we get angry and rude, but what kind of guts do you think it takes for someone to set up this Forum in the first place? Is this someone with a closed heart, saying come one come all, and let's talk about this experience which hurt many of us? What category do you put that in. Does M ever ask you how you feel? What your opinion is? What's happening today? No, he says go inside, go inside. go inside, go inside.
Just keep listening.
go inside, go in side. go........

and he asks you to support him and give him collectively $10,000 a day for his personal use (if this info is true). If he is inside as much as he tells others to do, why would he need all this money? Wouldnt a plain home with simple furnishings be adequate? Well, maybe his home is like that but with designer labels. You might say he needs to be rich so his followers will all respect him. And to their problems, he says go inside. The answers are all there. The problems will seem not so important when you look at your life in the context of eternity.

Well in my opinion we here look at our lives in the context of THIS VERY DAY I AM ALIVE and I am HERE

Please keep reading. You might have a change of heart.
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Date: Fri, Jun 05, 1998 at 19:25:50 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Judex
Subject: John HS is a joke - literally!
Message:
You know, when I first came to understand that John H.S. was a joke I was a little concerned that 'he' might be putting inocent ex's through their paces for nothing. But then, when he started revealing in no uncertain terms that he was just a running gag, I thought, 'that's fine. No one will unnecessarily shadow box with the guy'.

Listen, I can tell you with absoltuely no doubt whatsoever that JHS is a joke.

At this point I think it's a cute joke. He does it well. But really, Judec, let there be no mistake. This guy's not real. Please don't think otherwise.

(Or is this a case like what happened with Robyn where I tried to explain the same thing to her and she told me that SHE was only joking too?)

Just trying to help.
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Date: Fri, Jun 05, 1998 at 19:42:38 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: John HS is a joke - literally!
Message:
Ok but here comes my excuse....

1. Ok I've just had a good laugh about it

2. Maybe someone's alter ego is trying to speak through them. JHS really sounds sincere sometimes.
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Date: Fri, Jun 05, 1998 at 20:01:33 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Judex
Subject: John HS is a joke - literally!
Message:
John HS is the premie alter ego of a very nice person on the forum. He learned to talk that way by hanging around with premies who actually were LIKE John HS! That's why it seems so real - there are a bunch of John Hammond-Smythes running around in the real world (and I bet they all wear white suits, too!)
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Date: Thurs, Jun 04, 1998 at 12:21:31 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Good luck Scott!
Message:
Dear Scott,
I know you are busy and may not even see this but I was just responding to JW and using commas like a bat out of hell and it made me think of you. Hope all is and continues to go well with all that is keeping you occupied lately. You have been in my thoughts daily, sending you oratory powers!!!
Robyn
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Date: Thurs, Jun 04, 1998 at 11:09:58 (EST)
From: dlm
Email: whaler32@aol.com
To: Everyone
Subject: new visitor
Message:
i found this web site just last week im home opn re-hab and i always wondered what happened to M and DLM very intresting comments on the forum i rec knowledge in 1972 went to guru puja montrose and india 72 prem nagar and deliill be home for a few more weeks ....i hope to find our alot more ...dlm
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Date: Thurs, Jun 04, 1998 at 11:40:04 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: dlm
Subject: new visitor
Message:
Dear dlm,
I can't help but wonder if those are your initials or a reference to the old DLM, no matter. Gald you found us and decided to venture in from the lurkers. Welcome and let us hear more about you!
Robyn
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Date: Thurs, Jun 04, 1998 at 12:18:54 (EST)
From: dlm
Email: whaler32@aol.com
To: Robyn
Subject: new visitor
Message:
those really are my initials ....strange huh... i came in contact with M in 1971,, a small talk in ann arbor mi.. the next summer i went to guru puja in montrose col . rec knowledge and became very involved...about 20 friends from high school also rec knowledge we were from bloomfield hills mi we all went to india that fall and the next thing you know its 28 years later i havent been involved since 1981 i knew a lot of higher ups at the time and always wondered what happened to them so thats the story .....dlm
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Date: Thurs, Jun 04, 1998 at 16:35:40 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: dlm
Subject: Your Story
Message:
Dear dlm,
What a wonderful story you have described. It really inspires me, just the outline the way you have put it. I imagine M as a sort of pied piper coming to a (small - big town?) and you and your 20 high school friends just hearing him and going to India. He has that quality of capturing your longing, don't you think?
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Date: Fri, Jun 05, 1998 at 21:15:56 (EST)
From: bb
Email: None
To: dlm
Subject: new visitor
Message:
one guy from denver changed his middle name so that his
initials were also dlm. David (now Lucien) Moser.
rawat made fun of him. rawat would criticise anyone he could
for any reason. Welcome dlm.

Sorry bruce, them's the facts.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 04, 1998 at 11:42:02 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: dlm
Subject: a clarification
Message:
Dear dlm,
When I said lets hear more about you, I meant as you post your thoughts and feelings. Whether or not you let us know your name etc is another matter that is very personal and up to you, as I'm sure you know.
Robyn
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Date: Thurs, Jun 04, 1998 at 09:44:16 (EST)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Everyone
Subject: This Old Ashram
Message:
I was sent a link to a page promoting a resort on Cape Cod which features a Mansion as its centerpiece. The history of this fine property omits all references to having once been graced by the Lotus Feet of His Nibs Himself. In an effort to correct this oversight, I'd like to put up a page about the missing years when it was an ashram. Does anyone here have any memories of this Ex-Ashram that they'd like to share?
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Date: Thurs, Jun 04, 1998 at 12:48:05 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: This Old Ashram
Message:
Brian, are you sure this house was an ashram? I think it's more likely a place where BM stayed. I don't recall there being an ashram on Cape Cod. I lived in the Boston ashram (on Sewall Avenue in Brookline) which was also a beautiful house, Boston colonial style, but at least by 1975 there was no ashram on Cape Cod. At least it wasn't an 'official DLM ashram.'
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Date: Thurs, Jun 04, 1998 at 13:25:59 (EST)
From: Sure
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: This Old Ashram
Message:
I went to this place in 1972. I was told this was an ashram. There were living quarters for the premies. I will make a couple of calls tonight about this and get back with Brian. Anonymously, Sure
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Date: Thurs, Jun 04, 1998 at 17:12:01 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Sure
Subject: This Old Ashram
Message:
Sure,

It could have been an ashram in 1972. Since I didn't get involved until 1973, I might not have known about it.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 04, 1998 at 23:02:49 (EST)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: JW
Subject: This Old Ashram
Message:
DOH!

'Sure' was my source on this. Now Sure isn't sure...

Never mind.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 04, 1998 at 08:23:14 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Happy Birthday <3 Gerry!
Message:
Dear Gerry,
Hey, mister, feeling special today, I hope! You know when I went out Tues. for my birthday 2 women came in, 1 was on the dart team with some of my friends, and I'd met her once or twice, the other woman with her, I'd met once at the laundrymat. I remembered her for 2 reasons, 1st she is married to a man who was a friend of Jade's dad years ago and his name is Robin. When I met her that day I just got a nice, kind of comfortable feeling from her, I didn't give it a thought until I found out it was her birthday, 6/2, also. Now when you first posted here I got that same comfortable feeling from you. I noticed it right away. So it was nice to realize I really like the similarities in the personalities of people with my birthday. Don't freak out Jim, OK! I just hope you have a great birthday and 45th year!
Robyn
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Date: Thurs, Jun 04, 1998 at 09:25:45 (EST)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: Happy Birthday <3 Gerry!
Message:
Happy Birthday Youngster,

I should have known it was a special day by the way you displayed such compassion towards young Amigo. I laughed so hard the tubes came out and I had to call the nurse...

Have a good one Gerry and have a virtual drink on me.

All the best

Richard
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Date: Thurs, Jun 04, 1998 at 10:25:43 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: Happy Birthday, Gerry!
Message:
Hi Gerry - had to come out of my cave to wish you a very happy birthday! Hope it's a great one - for both your Gemini selves! Thanks for being on the forum - you're a great person to have around.

Many happy returns from Katie

P.S. Also thanks for telling me about Powell's bookstore on the net - it is great! Not sure my husband appreciates my knowing about it, but oh well...
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Date: Thurs, Jun 04, 1998 at 10:31:14 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Happy Birthday, Gerry!
Message:
Hey, Gerry, I was going to say 'this is beginning to seem like Romper Room' but then I remembered how good it felt to get all those birthday greetings myself and that wasn't even my birthday. Yes you Gemini's. What can I say?

Happy birthday from us too. You've been a lot of fun to have here. Seattle maybe?
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Date: Thurs, Jun 04, 1998 at 13:03:01 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Happy Birthday, Gerry!
Message:
Thanks to eveyone for for their birthday wishes. I wasn't sure the forum could stand two birthdays in one week, though! I appreciate you guys very much and it's great to have people like you to talk with in this way. Hell, I'm even getting kinda fond of premies, especially the ones new to the forum. They really spice up the show! I'm off to (as Dr. Laura-Jim's favorite-says) 'Take on my day!' See you tomorrow.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 04, 1998 at 16:42:43 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: Happy Birthday, Gerry!
Message:
Dear Gerry
While you are taking on your day, I am taking mine off and while you are taking yours off, peacefully I hope, I am putting mine on like a sack cloth - gotta go to work -
It's like 'brother sun, sister moon' isn't it?
From the woman on the dark side of the globe....
Happy Birthday Gerry
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Date: Thurs, Jun 04, 1998 at 13:32:59 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: You could be my Dad!!
Message:
Well... almost. But you are such a jokester, I had to get you with one! It's been fun having you on the forum. You make me laugh. Have a good one. VP
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Date: Thurs, Jun 04, 1998 at 19:34:47 (EST)
From: carol
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Happy Birthday <3 Gerry!
Message:
Dear Gerry,
I am very glad you were born and I got to meet you!Happy Birthday! You look like you're 35 'though! An old premie friend and former relative (in-law) called me today to get the address of another old premie friend and we shared with eachother that we are really ex-premies! She wants to go to Seattle, too! It's getting to be a party, and we may need one after!!
carol
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Date: Fri, Jun 05, 1998 at 19:48:12 (EST)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: Happy Birthday
Message:
Another bloody gemini....they're everywhere....
two for the price of one ....
I live with one ...
I e-mail one many times a week(a friend)..
Robyn is one ....
OH well ! it's my fate, I guess!
HAPPY BIRTHDAY Gerry,
from Keith and Mirabai.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 04, 1998 at 03:09:08 (EST)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Communication,etc.
Message:
I don't think I was ever (or rarely) a bona-fide premie. I never accepted Maharaji as my one and only teacher.
And I never accepted any teacher as my Master.
What is the line that divides master and student from master and slave?

This forum has helped to liberate me from feelings of isolation engendered partly by the shallowness of the average premie mind-set.

I have recently discovered another interesting forum.....by following the ' brockwood park 'site (brockwood park is a krishnamurti school and foundation in the UK) through to the 'discussion' area. The forum is totally unmonitored and therefore has a mix of people as this forum does.
Sorry , I do not know how to paste a link to another site.

Brian , that could be another good link for this site to have.

Communication as happens on these types of forums must be really transforming our global consciousness, I suspect far more than we generally realise.

BTW; if David (of geocity fame) is still around....
why is the geocity chatroom you initiated now no longer alive(it's officially finito)???

As I free myself of M's fear and guilt ridden proclamations I am experimenting with focusing on the 'experience' of knowledge
(light, sound, breath and 'nectar') in ways that I feel at ease with.....without the restrictions that were imposed before.

I would rather be free in hell than enslaved in heaven!!
Off with you .....you demons of fear and guilt!!
Keith
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Date: Thurs, Jun 04, 1998 at 10:31:06 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: Communication,etc.
Message:
Keith, you wrote:
I would rather be free in hell than enslaved in heaven!!

That's exactly how I felt when I made the decision to leave Maharaji's organization, and to stop practicing Knowledge. I know that the guilt trips aren't as heavy these days and that you're not forced to make such a clear cut decision, but I remember feeling such a trememdous feeling of relief when I made up my mind to leave.

Regards,
Katie

P.S. Do you have the URL (address) for the Brockwood site? It should be in the location box at the top of your screen when you access the site (you could copy and paste it into a post). If so, we could make a link to it. Jim has proposed a page on the site given over to other helpful links on the internet, and it would be great to include a wide range of possibilities.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 04, 1998 at 11:51:18 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: Keith
Subject: Communication,etc.
Message:
Dear Keith,
It is so good to read your writing here. You sound so very different, yet still the same, than you did when you were first here. You sound solid and strong. I have enjoyed reading your posts since I started, not from the beginning as I don't just read premie post, reading them but they have a more contented feel to them now.
Robyn
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Date: Thurs, Jun 04, 1998 at 11:54:28 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Marabai
Subject: Marabai
Message:
Dear Marabai,
I am working on this. Now I have your name written on a paper in my desk as my problem has been not being able to look and see, in another post, how to spell your name. I have not meant to offend you by misspelling your name. I am a notoriously bad speller!
I don't know if this is your real name or how to really say it but it is a beautiful name.
Robyn
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Date: Thurs, Jun 04, 1998 at 20:02:11 (EST)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: Robyn and Katie
Subject: Marabai
Message:
MIRABAI. MIRA-BAI. (OR Mira if that's easier).
But seriously Robyn...I am a very bad speller myself so at least you help to make me feel less alone in this regard.
And Katie , I shall try and get that URL for this forum.
Thankyou both for the kind words.
Keith
ps: Robyn,I shall try and get Mirabai to respond to your posts later. I tend to hog the computor as I work with it a lot.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 04, 1998 at 20:01:33 (EST)
From: Swot (Eng Lit, grade E)
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: Communication,etc.
Message:
'Better to reign in Hell than serve in Heaven'

- spoken by Lucifer in Milton's 'Paradise Lost'. Lucifer is actually the best character in the poem - and the one you suspect Milton most identified with, even though Milton's stated objective at the start was to '...justify God's ways to man'.
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Date: Wed, Jun 03, 1998 at 20:28:10 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: finally a break!
Message:
I don't even have time to read the old posts. All because of
all this programming and working on conferencing systems. Ironic, isn't it?

Just wanted to say, VP, I hope I didn't miss a chance to say good bye. There does seem to be a slowing down after 6 months, we started posting here about the same time. I have had very little chance to check forum, and it's hard to get back into it. At first I thought maybe because I am so tired of computers after dealing with them so intensely lately, but now, after reading what you had to say, I am wondering if there isn't more to it, like, maybe I am sick of reading about the bM.
I do want to stay in touch though, this has been a great experience for me. It has changed my life actually, being able to post and read here. and the people are so honest and it's helped me see my self better, and hopefully accept and grow. I'll miss you VP.
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Date: Wed, Jun 03, 1998 at 21:23:44 (EST)
From: Ms. K
Email: None
To: Selena
Subject: finally a break!
Message:
Hi Selena - glad to see you here. I just wanted to tell you to be sure not to miss the thread where JW explains the difference between men and women (I think it's in the middle of another thread, and there is some reference to X-rated material.) It's a hoot.

Mailed your tape today!
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Date: Wed, Jun 03, 1998 at 22:04:58 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: Ms. K
Subject: finally a break!
Message:
Thanks for mailing the tape.
I found the thread. hmm, these late nights on the forum
get interesting, makes me wonder what else people are up to
whilst typing away.
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Date: Wed, Jun 03, 1998 at 23:07:18 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Selena
Subject: finally a break!
Message:
Hi, Selena! Great to hear from you. I don't leave from vacation for another couple of days. I have been having trouble with my ISP (putting in new phone lines) and also several projects have been pulling me away from getting to post here. I have still been reading and jumping in a bit.

I agree that this place was life changing for me, too, because that little nagging thing in the back of my mind (you know, 'maybe God is alive in human form...maybe I should check this out') was put to bed. I FINALLY REALIZE THAT I HAVE ALWAYS HAD EVERYTHING THAT I EVER NEEDED!That is a GREAT realization to make! I feel like Dorothy(without the pigtails, of course) in the end of the Wizard of Oz, when she figures out she could have been using those ruby slippers the whole time. I am definately healed, but I realize that I am not sick of any of the people here (except, of course, for Maharaji). After talking to someone, I have decided to keep posting here once I get back from vacation. I just need a break from my 'routine' for lack of a better word.

I'll miss you for a week or two, though :) Thank you again for the tapes. Watching them was very healing. I just don't understand why premies dig those things so much. I hope that you will keep posting, too, IF you want to. I learned a lot from you.

VP
Started posting w/ Selena about 6 months ago
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Date: Thurs, Jun 04, 1998 at 12:12:32 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Selena
Subject: finally a break!
Message:
Dear Selena,
God I am so emotional today, I can't leave it behind. I have felt the same way, to much talk about BM but the forum has done so much more for me than anything having to do with BM that I very happy with whatever time I can spend here. I've even thought, lately that I have been to emotional here lately, in that I feel like I am repeating the same flowing descriptions of my love for all of you and this site, etc. But it is true and I don't want to ignore those feelings. I am in the beginning stages of some pretty heavy stuff I need to work through now and it wouldn't be happening this soon if not for the forum.
My 'stuff' isn't so much about BM, nothing really, the thing that keeps my so into this site outside of my own benifits recieved from the forum, is that BM has hurt so many, even if I was very lucky to avoid that myself and I want to support anyone who wants/needs access to the truth about BM.
Good to see your post, be well and all the best to you if you are here or not.
Robyn
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Date: Thurs, Jun 04, 1998 at 19:44:42 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: here for now
Message:
Hi
I am still around, I only meant to say that I have been
very busy, and kind of stressed about a new development project I am in charge of and it makes it hard to want to log back on in those spare times.
Also I was just saying that I am kind of getting on with life, my trauma and anger toward the big M has definitely started taking a back seat to new experiences.
I like the forum and the experience here. I'll be around, if I ever can stop manipulating cyberspace and just enjoy and use it for a change (can you relate Brian?)
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Date: Wed, Jun 03, 1998 at 16:04:59 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: letter to EV (re Seattle)
Message:
Here's a letter I just sent Linda Gross:

'June 3, 1998

Elan Vital (By fax to 310 - 829 - 6316)
c/o Linda Gross
Attorney at Law
2730 Wilshire Blvd.
Suite 220
Santa Monica, CA. 90403

Att: Linda Gross, President

Dear Linda:

Re: Maharaji - Seattle Program, July 11, 1998

Recently on the ex-premie web site several premies have suggested that I attend a program and ask Maharaji some of the questions that some other former premies and I seek answers for. They assure me that I could do this and that, in fact, Maharaji would probably engage me in some dialogue. For example, a fellow named Bruce from Australia, who says that he
has 'on many occasions been responsible for M's personal security and safety in recent years' and who claims that he is 'personally familiar with his entourage.' offers that I 'could even stand up, put up [my] hand and ask [my] questions.' Bruce adds 'I've seen it done. I've asked questions. Lots of people have.'

Well what do you know? I always had the impression that Maharaji was not open to such exchanges but, of course, as you know, I’ve been out of touch for years.

Would you please advise me if Bruce is correct? Would I be able to attend the program, walk in freely and, at some juncture, ask Maharaji some of these questions that I have? I’m not interested in traveling to Seattle just to be disappointed at the auditorium door and having to cool my heels at the Pike Street market all day. (I quit drinking coffee last fall). I’m also not interested in getting the bum’s rush or being ignored should I raise my hand during Maharaji’s presentation.

Thanks for looking into this for me.

Sincerely,

James I. Heller
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Date: Wed, Jun 03, 1998 at 19:44:41 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: letter to EV (re Seattle)
Message:
I think they HAVE to let you into the program, Jim. Unless they can show you are some kind of derranged nut or something. If they throw you out, be sure to go to the newspapers and TV stations with it. You might set that up with the media in advance, just so they will be prepared to get it into the news that day. Please, be sure to plug the ex-premie site in the interview you give them. Perhaps that women from People Magazine would go with you.

Yes, Jim, you should stand up at the program and respectfully scream out some questions. That should be very effective and you would be a big hit with the security people. How about one of the following:

How come you have such a fat ass?

What do you think of your brother, Satpal, the other 'satguru?' How many other 'perfect masters' are there besides you and your brother?

Why do you think your brother doesn't even acknowledge your existence?

How come you don't let your premies speak about their experience publicly anymore, like they used to? Are they too stupid or lacking in experience do to that? What does that say about your ability as a 'master?'?

Are you aware that there is site on the internet where ex-premies claim you ripped them off, refuse to address them, and that they think you are a charlatan?

How come you don't call yourself the lord of the universe anymore?

What WAS that ashram thing all about,huh? Can I have my trust fund back? How about my nine years of income I turned over?

How come your eyes look like slits and you have those big bags under them? What the hell happened to you? You used to be kinda cute.
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Date: Wed, Jun 03, 1998 at 20:44:14 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: letter to EV (re Seattle)
Message:
Hey Joe, what do you mean 'you'? I was thinking we'd both go.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 04, 1998 at 03:18:42 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: letter to EV (re Seattle)
Message:
I think you guys are a challenge for security !

I'd be amazed you get any formal answer from EV,
beside that 'the door is always open' ....

They will give you a seat with a lot of security in the
vicinity, and carefully monitor the entrances to detect
press.

They'll make sure you don't have any recording equipment ...
knowing that sooner or later they'll see some darshan on
the internet anyway ....

Endangered cult ....
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Date: Fri, Jun 05, 1998 at 11:43:00 (EST)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: JM is right Jim
Message:
I think JM is right Jim and if this event is a premie-prog you will be typecast as the 'bongo', like this is what happens when you don't practice.

However, I think the letter is great, if only they would give an honest reply so that Bruce and others could be forced to see what a shaky state their Master is in.

If only....

So what about it Linda, or anybody else close to Maharaji, how about giving us that honest answer? Or do you, like us, sense that a little real honesty would be the pebble that starts the avalanche.

Richard
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Date: Fri, Jun 05, 1998 at 16:35:36 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Thanks Richard!
Message:
at least someone to confirm what I'm saying here.

EV's policy is quite simple and completely predictible.
Nothing has changed, and it's not likely that any major change is going to happen in a near future.
I've been involved enough in all this to understand in what kind of swamp every premie is stuck
and it looks like you've been involved enough to know all this too. Funny ....

I just wonder what they're talking about in their endless meetings ..... that's also something else!

How come you finally left the business ?
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Date: Mon, Jun 08, 1998 at 08:16:13 (EST)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Last thing to go...
Message:
Hi Jean-Michel,

I'm on a course this week and can't stop to say more than Hi. However, history shows us that the Palace Guard is usually the last part of the organisation hierarchy to collapse.

Regards

Richard
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Date: Sat, Jun 06, 1998 at 09:44:54 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: About SECURITY
Message:
My understanding is that security/safety/ushering is a
MAJOR activity in EV.

It's always surprised me. I would say that nearly half of the premies doing 'service' are involved into it.
What a huge trip !

Do you have ideas about what's behind all this ?
There is definitely input from the BM about it, I can't imagine
such a huge international organization in EV existing without
m's orders. Security has it's own intl organization, communication systems, etc...

What do you think about it ?
beside the fact that it shows a huge paranoia and a fear system.

Facts about it would be VERY enlightening I guess.
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Date: Wed, Jun 03, 1998 at 13:53:51 (EST)
From: Joy
Email: Bluebirdd@aol.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Shakers
Message:
I posted something about this in a thread down below, but wanted to bring it up to the top to see if anybody knows anything about this.

There's a friend of mine in Ireland, ex-premie from the 70s also, who told me about a phenomenon which was happening to the premies in Ireland in the late 70s, I forget exactly when, which was similar to the Charismatic Christians. These premies, during satsang, would start to shake, and go into some sort of trance, often for quite long periods of time, and remember nothing of it afterwards. Apparently it was quite widespread, though exclusive to Ireland, and even happened to my friend, who's otherwise a quite sane and non-crazy type of person. Anybody else acquainted with this type of thing happening during satsang? My sister, who's a Fundamentalist Christian, thinks it was possession by devils, but she thinks just about everything's that. I have no explanation. (I don't see how it could any more be possession by devils than, say, the gyrations of the Pentacostalists or those who 'speak in tongues' -- if that isn't strange, I don't know what is.) But this is the only time I've ever heard of this in relation to BM and satsang meetings. Are there any ex-es (or current premies) out there in Ireland online who can confirm anything about this??? Or has it happened anywhere else in the world?
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Date: Wed, Jun 03, 1998 at 15:43:09 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Joy
Subject: Visions in Nelson
Message:
Joy,

I know nothing of which you speak. However, as I've mentioned before, when Mahatma Tejeshwaranand initiated a bunch of people in Nelson B.C. in 1974 all sorts of them reported seeing various masters in the light. He gave three K sessions in one night and I believe over half the people said that as he went around and asked them one-by-one what they'd seen.

What do I make of that? Simple. The mind is a powerful thing. Mahatma Ji had really revv'd up their motors earlier that night when he gave satsang to the whole valley assembled in the one big hall there. He'd excitedly exclaimed his immediate revelation that he'd 'been with Jesus' (i.e. was a re-incarnated apostle or something). Everyone was pumped.

Of course Mahatma Ji had a lot to be thankful for himself back then. He had an actual harem awaiting his return in Vancouver.
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Date: Wed, Jun 03, 1998 at 16:29:25 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Joy
Subject: Shakers
Message:
Joy,

I haven't heard about that particular Irish 'shaking' either, but I chock it up to mental suggestion.

Recall how in the late 70s, premies starting fainting in large numbers during the darshan lines? It was a real badge of honor that you're 'experience' of kissing BM's feet was so profound that your body just couldn't handle it.

Recall how a big operation was set up to deal with people who fainted? Literally, rooms were set up and what seemed like dozens of people had the 'service' of dragging away the fainted premies and keeping them in a quiet place until they revived. Well, it was kind of funny, wasn't it, that the more these facilities were set up, the more people fainted? And wasn't it funny that the number of people fainting just grew and grew? I mean it was the same feet-kissing that had been going on for years, and very few people used to faint, but boy did that change. The more premies saw other premies faint, the more premies fainted.

And then, to top it off, as I think I've mentioned before, at one particular program there wasn't room to store the fainted premies. The back stage area was just too small. So, Joe Anctil asked from the stage that premies 'please do not faint.' And guess what, hardly anybody did. It was all bullshit mental suggestion, and when premies knew they weren't 'supposed' to faint, they didn't. I wouldn't be at all surprised that some Irish premies saw others doing the 'shaking' and through mental suggestion did the same thing themselves, either consciously faking the 'shaking' to appear spiritually high, or even unconsciously through mental suggestion. There are plently of psychological studies that explain this type of phenomena in this way. I think the whole premie 'bliss-out' experience at programs is based on the same thing.

Also, when I was in high school, I now admit, I got interested in a pentacostal Catholic group. They used to 'pray in tongues' and do some pretty good shaking too. It looked like they were having convulsions. Anyhow, they told me I was 'gifted' and 'spiritual' and I actually began praying in tongues. In reality, I was just spouting gibberish, and these people said they could hear something profound in it. Also bullshit. I knew it was just spouting nonsense, and after awhile I got bored and never came back. Too bad. About four years later, I got into the utter gibberish nonsense of the Guru Maharaj Ji cult.
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Date: Wed, Jun 03, 1998 at 16:51:28 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Shakers
Message:
JW,

Is it just me, am I getting giddy or something, or is this forum getting more and more hilarious? That post was great!

You said: Anyhow, they told me I was 'gifted' and 'spiritual' and I actually began praying in tongues.

I went to this crackpot fundamentalist church sometime in 1976 or so, and after the service, went into a special room where all the believers prayed for you to receive the 'Baptism of the Holy Spirit'. I mean, what the hell, knowledge was a bust, so why not?

Anyway, this old guy with really bad breath was in the group and was 'laying hands' on my head so hard I figured I'd better produce soon before he snapped my neck. I 'surrendered' to the gibberish and found out I could produce the same sounds quite easily once I started to do it with deliberate intention.

Strangely, this produced a feeling of bliss in me like I had never felt before and only recently have felt again. I mean I loved everybody (particularly my best friend's sister) and when he and I smoked a joint of this bodacious pot, the 'bliss' disappeared completely! I guess the 'Holy Spirit' wasn't much of a match for Acapulco gold, huh?
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Date: Thurs, Jun 04, 1998 at 11:01:43 (EST)
From: bftb
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Shakers
Message:
This made me laugh.Just the image of hordes of people lining up to kiss someones feet.And then they all pass out after doing same.The thing is though;how do you know all those fainters were fakers?Like...maybe his feet just smelled really,really bad! Like...really bad.

------------------------------------------------------------------
Gems amid the platitudes: I repeated an expression to a friend that I have heard Maharaji say: 'Yesterday is a cancelled check,tommorrow is a promisory note,the only hard cash you have is right now, so spend it wisely'-before I credit this to M I'd like to know if any of you know whether or not that saying originated with him.

Sincerely, Bhiiftihb (the 'H's are silent)
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Date: Thurs, Jun 04, 1998 at 11:18:32 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: bftb
Subject: M quote?
Message:
Hi bftb -
I've heard that elsewhere, or at least a variant of it (and obviously I didn't hear it from M!). It sounds like something from a 12-step group (but they pick up sayings and slogans from everywhere), or else like the 'Gem of the Day' from Dear Abby.

P.S. You infidel - how dare you say that the lotus feet might have smelled bad!!! You're starting to sound like one of those ex-premies!
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Date: Fri, Jun 05, 1998 at 12:34:33 (EST)
From: bftb
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: M quote?
Message:
Maybe he reads 'Dear Abby'?

Funny thing;the friend to whom I had repeated this quote expressed some stuff afterwards that surprised me a bit.This guy's not a premmie but had gone to a few satsangs in 1980 or so and has known a premmie or two over the years and claims that he even had the 'misfortune' of seeing a minute or so of an M video in 1990.So he knows a little bit more about M then someone who's never heard of the guy.

What surprised me was the venomous rant he went on about M.First of all he felt that that particular quote was a bad way to describe past,present,and future and thought it was typical of what he'd expect a 'charlatan like M' to say.He thought it telling that the quote used checks and promisory notes for analogies.He went on about how full of it he's always thought the whole M show to be and was sounding as angry as some of the people here who actually dedicated years of their lives to M.No...he was angrier. I found this degree of anger odd coming from a 'never been a premmie or an aspirant' type civilian and dug a little deeper.What I found was interesting: Underlying all this was the fact that the anger was really towards myself.This friend finally expressed the anger that he's felt for years over the fact that he could never reconcile how a person(ME)whom he has always perceived to be a very rational, clear thinking person could ever have fallen 'for such an obvious charlatan' and its sort of been this one piece of the puzzle that never fit for him.I guess it makes him stop and think if I'm really as smart as he thinks I am or has experienced me to be.It calls everything else into question.The idea of me quoting M with this dear Abby thing was like the straw that broke the camels back.

So now I know.I actually was/am a little surprised by the degree of anger but I think I understand.

Has anything like this ever happened to you?(or anyone else reading this) Have you ever had a friend/relative express serious anger towards M and your involvement with M/EV that you never really knew they even had? I find this interesting.Thanks.
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Date: Fri, Jun 05, 1998 at 13:40:31 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: bftb
Subject: Anger of Others
Message:
bftb:

I can relate to this angry response from your friend. Some of my family members and former friends were careful not to directly cricitize BM or the cult during my involvement. In 1983, when I told them I was getting out, and now saw the cult as a ruse for BM to become wealthy, some of the anger began to come out from them.

Much of this was due to the fact that my being a premie directly impacted my relationship with them. I literally rejected them, not in words, but by being in the ashram, not being around, and I think because I tried to follow BM's direction that family was just another temptation that could take you from the path of total dedication. A couple of my friends from before knowledge who I talked to later also had quite a bit of resentment. I think I, and most premies in general, also exhibited a certain spiritual superiority, so common in cults, which is a kind of smugness about being 'saved' and feeling sorry for those who aren't.

We know how the deal worked. You received knowledge, and gave satsang to your friends and maybe your family. Either they received knowledge and became premies too, or they pretty much were cut out from your life. At least that's the way it was for me and a lot of other premies I knew. Sure, maybe you saw them on the odd holiday and sent them birthday cards, maybe, but the feeling of rejection we gave them was pretty unmistakable.

They said some of the same stuff your friend did, that they considered me smart, level-headed and rational, and for awhile they thought there must be something to it or I wouldn't be involved. {But, as we know, 'intelligence' has nothing to do with it.] Eventually they kind of gave up on me, and felt I had lost my mind or something. Some of these people came to satsang, including to introductory programs with the BM himself, and they saw through the whole thing as bullshit, but were too polite to tell me that, until I was no longer a premie.
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Date: Fri, Jun 05, 1998 at 15:16:44 (EST)
From: Joy
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Anger of Others
Message:
Joe, my sister recounts how when, on a visit to England in 1972 I dragged her around Heathrow airport chasing after M, who was in transit somewhere and there was going to be some kind of reception for him. She said we premies were running through the airport like deranged loonies, trying to find him, and if I could only have seen myself. She then was 'privileged' to sit and listen to him speak for the grand total of five minutes before he boarded his plane, and was struck by the inanity of his speech, coming out with platitudes like 'everything's going to be alright'. She can't figure out how I could have devoted my life to a guy who said such profundities. It's a mystery to me now, too! Perhaps that should go up in the mysteries thread, how us otherwise intelligent people could have fallen for it all. She, nor the rest of my family, were not actively angry with me but I feel it has taken years to repair the relationships that were severed by my ignoring them for ten years in favor of BM. And it has significantly damaged any further credibility I may have with them, anything I'm now 'into' or interested in is suspect until proven otherwise, because I had such bad judgment for so long.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 04, 1998 at 12:28:48 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: bftb
Subject: Shakers
Message:
Dear bhiiftihb,
As I was squinting to see the exact new spelling of your name I realized I just got glasses and paid more than $100 for them so I might as well use them!
You really had me laughing here is what I really wanted to tell you. Your initials have kept me confused about you and I think I've seen your posts in some old archives but don't really have a sense of you but thanks for this post.
Robyn
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Date: Thurs, Jun 04, 1998 at 12:19:27 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: JW
Subject: Shakers
Message:
Dear JW,
I saw a premie, after darshan, doing that shaking thing, like the pentacostals. Years later I went to church, just once with a pentacostal friend and all that exterior stuff wasn't for me! I could never even get into saying a montra out loud over and over, that was one of the appealing things about K, it was all quite, personal and quite profound, for me.
Robyn
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Date: Thurs, Jun 04, 1998 at 06:18:09 (EST)
From: Knight of Round Cheese
Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com
To: Joy
Subject: The hippy hippy shake
Message:
When I was 18 and a hippy there was a group of us who sat on the cliffs in St Ives, Cornwall and all held hands in a circle, under the stars and waited to see what would happen.

I felt an energy or vibration going up my arms and then into my whole body. I started to shake and utter strange tongue-like sounds. The energy seemed to overwhelm me and to this day I'm not sure what was happening.

I think I was experiencing the sum total of the energy of our little group. We were all holding hands and were of like minds. One of the other guys went into a trance and it took some time before we could get him out of it. I think the shaking premies and the shaking, tongue-speaking Christians are experiencing a similar phenomenon to my cliff top experience. A concentration of energy can have some pretty far out results.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 04, 1998 at 12:33:56 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: Knight of Round Cheese
Subject: The hippy hippy shake
Message:
Dear Chedd,
You are a wonder, thanks! Did you see Keith's mystery thread?
Robyn
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