Ex-Premie.Org |
Forum III Archive # 10 | |
From: May 28, 1998 |
To: Jun 9, 1998 |
Page: 1 Of: 5 |
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Date: Sun, Jun 07, 1998 at 13:25:07 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Seattle Event - CANCELLED! Message: Hi Guys, Just checked my machine. Linda Gross called to say that she got my letter about questioning Maharaji at the Seattle event but that the program's been cancelled in any event. Oh well. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Jun 07, 1998 at 13:29:27 (EST)
From: Selena Email: None To: Jim Subject: Seattle Event - CANCELLED! Message: Did she say why it was cancelled? too much cognac? we could have fun with this one. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Jun 07, 1998 at 13:41:26 (EST)
From: Gerry Email: None To: Selena Subject: Seattle Event - CANCELLED! Message: Oh shit! We ran him out of town before he even got here. Is it too far fetched to think he smelled trouble brewing and just said Know? Bet he never comes to the Northwest again! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Jun 07, 1998 at 14:19:17 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Gerry Subject: Seattle Event - CANCELLED! Message: Selena - No, Linda didn't say why the program was cancelled. Like I say, it was on my answering machine. She said she'd be out of town for a week so I'll check with her when she gets back. Gerry - I'm amazed that you would think we had anything to do with changing Maharaji's plans. We are like microbic single-celled animals to his great elephant. He only moves to crush us or love us. Those are the options. He is the Lord and, know what? He's gonna get you! Maharaji's coming and HE'S GONNA GET YOU, GERRY!!! MAHARAJI'S GONNA GET GERRY!!! WOOO-OOOOO-OOOO!!! Just not this time, that's all. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Jun 07, 1998 at 15:07:06 (EST)
From: Gerry Email: None To: Jim Subject: Seattle Event - CANCELLED! Message: He has YOUR address, not mine. He'll never find me. There over 42 Lyng's in the McCleary phone book and I'M unlisted. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Jun 07, 1998 at 15:29:32 (EST)
From: Furry Rodent Email: None To: All Subject: Seattle Event - CANCELLED! Message: Yes, it's true. An Elan Vital leaflet has found it's way into my posession. It's entitled: NEW 1998 EVENT INFORMATION. (and then proceeds) 'Due to logistical difficulties the 1998 event schedule has been amended and a revised schedule which will better cover events world-wide will be available soon. The following events have been cancelled. Athens on 18 and 19 June. Seattle on 11 July, Oporto on 19 & 20 July. Barcelona 3 day event on 4, 5, 6 September and Anaheim 3 day event on 18,19,20 September.. Other events are subject to date change. Some new events have been added......' It then goes on to confirm Wembley and Rome before giving new dates for Miami, Atlantic City, Chicago. Denver and Cotonou to be announced 'soon'. Brighton, U.K. to be brought forward about a month.... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Jun 07, 1998 at 17:31:13 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Jim Subject: The BM has Big Problems! Message: Events are cancelled ONLY for major reasons: the BM doesn't feel comfortable (can you imagine the Lord having problems ?) Major security prooblem: wild bongos out of control Major financial problems Press expecting EV .... guess what's wrong ? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Jun 07, 1998 at 22:06:46 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Jim Subject: Seattle Event - CANCELLED! Message: Well, I think the Seattle program was cancelled because EV and the Big M thought it was likely Jim, Gerry, Carol and maybe Joy were going to be there, and god only knows what embarrassing mischief they might have gotten into. Hmmm..... Anyway, this is what I am choosing to believe. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Jun 08, 1998 at 11:17:56 (EST)
From: carol Email: None To: JW Subject: Seattle Event - CANCELLED! Message: I guess we NW ex's will have to come up with another reason to get together! We could storm a video event...just kidding. How about going to see the Ex-Flies? carol Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Jun 08, 1998 at 13:20:47 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: carol Subject: Seattle Event - CANCELLED! Message: Yes, I think BM found out that Jim was thinking of standing up in the audience and asking him why he had such a fat ass, and instead of facing Jim, he cancelled the program entirely. Plus, god only knows what you and Gerry would have asked him. It would have been just a horror story for him. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Jun 08, 1998 at 14:11:41 (EST)
From: Memphis Belle Email: None To: JW Subject: Seattle Event - CANCELLED! Message: M cancelled the entire year! and is re-scheduling everything! This is what he told everyone at the Long Beach Program. Hello, I'm back. I had mixed feelings at the LB program. Some of what M said was inspiring. I was very critical of him and I am still undecided about the whole thing. I have decided to take a break. I Know all of you are interested in what happened at the event but I am still thinking about it. He has cancelled the whole year and apparently no one knew about it, even the premies who are 'close'. I do not like that some premies are 'closer' to him than I can be. How come I know that I am close to God. But I am very far from M. How is it possible that I will remember M at the last hour, when I am on my way to God. I put God before M. (I write this as if God is listening). And I am still greatful this forum is here! Thank you Memphis Belle Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Jun 08, 1998 at 14:28:04 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: Memphis Belle Subject: Hi Memphis Message: Hi Memphis Belle - Thanks for the news about the cancellations (that is weird!). Don't worry about 'telling' us about the program until you feel like it. I've been watching some M videos lately, and you are right that he says some inspiring things. I don't find them to be particularly inspiring any more, but that's because I've heard him say the same inspiring things a whole lot. It gets less inspiring after a while! I do think that M really believes that he is the master. It is kind of sad in a way. Anyay, I'm glad you're still here - I was thinking about you! Katie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Jun 08, 1998 at 20:01:46 (EST)
From: *<*...b Email: None To: Katie Subject: Hi Memphis Message: the dream scenario would be if he realized he needed to re-orient the view people have of him and that he needed time to change and recognise the part he has wrong in his perception of life. But it probably is something different. Money and budget are perhaps primary, but I also think he has been here at the forum as doc and others and I think he is rattled. I know others don't think it's him but unless a ex is fakeing the doc and other posts, a regular premie is not likely to say many of those things. And say them that way. Again, the ideal would be for him to recognise he can't play god successfully because of his past, and if he vacations for a year we will still be here. What would be honest would be for him to be a 'rebel' and rebel against the guru trip and leave it for a straight showing something useful for free trip. Free of the hindu false 'i am god' when I am inside trip, and instead become a honest straightforward man. One that can face his past and deal clearly with it. He is so heavily invested in haveing others sing and have devotion to him that I don't have much hope in his redemption. But... This is one of those areas where Hunter Thompson has it wrong, people can and do find more. And most did. The community cannot bond over drug use, or virtually anything else. Except temporarily, or occasionally. We can try to agree on some basic rules or views, but the kids will just want something else anyway. I am glad we are here. If prem rawat wants to complete his mid-life crises and comes up with a respect for the concious power that exists, and sees through the fake 'i am god' new age blabber, hindu buddist blabber, then I would consider him to have had a successful mid-life crises and perhaps even redeemed. Depends on a lot. But unless he does, and fully, My lifelong commitment to stop him remains active. I would bet $100. that he doesn't change. He remains playing god, and restarts his flying sooner rather than later. He once said 'and to do it like never before' well, honesty and being real hasn't been tried before in the hindu buddist game...THAT would be different, and respectable. It is stupid to think we need a fake god to go with our breath. He has enough money comeing in and if he wanted to he could do a humanitarian trip at this point and dispense with the ugly guru trip. could have brought a lot of people to be shown thier breath if he wasn't in the way the whole time. What a wierd flaw he has. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Jun 08, 1998 at 19:21:57 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Memphis Belle Subject: Seattle Event - CANCELLED! Message: Memphis, thanks for you post. So, what do you think is going on here? He cancelled the whole year! Did he say why? I think he is likely short of money, and/or is once again going through an identity crisis and hence wants to stay home. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Jun 08, 1998 at 22:16:37 (EST)
From: Memphis Belle Email: None To: JW Subject: Seattle Event - CANCELLED! Message: Hi JW, I meant to say that he has re-scheduled! He has cancelled his previous plans and is re-scheduling a new event schedule. But what is crazy about the whole re-scheduling is that I know lots of premies have already booked flights for the previous events! The one thing that disturbed me the most about the event is when he talked about sharing. He said that you can not share anything with anyone else but your own self. I felt some adrenalin race a little through my veins which signaled to me that what he was talking about doesn't sit right with me. It was about half way through the program, (he did great up until then), that the doubt came back again. You see, I feel that you do share things with others, like love, respect, joy, pain, fun, sorrow, etc. I might be wrong, but I do love my parents, boyfriend, sister, etc, and I believe that they share the same love. Now then, I notice that premies keep their distance from these true down to earth feelings for other people. They seem to ju Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 00:07:03 (EST)
From: *<*...b Email: None To: Memphis Belle Subject: it's a start Message: exactly. that whole thought reflects a lot of his programming. 'you cant share anything with anyone else but your own self.' That is his ivory tower loner 'i am god' stuff and that is exactly where he is most deluded about life. he used to try to explain away his apparent coldness and unhappiness by pretending this whole 'outer lips dont count but the inner lips do' thing. remember that one? 'inner lips'? another fraud to fool us because there IS no inner lips and if you cant treat others with love then what kind of spiritual trip are you on? He cannot figure out how to relate to others and he hides behind this I am better than you facade. He has always yelled at people and treated them badly and driven away so many who realized that if he cannot even figure out how to have love in his heart for those around him then he truly has nothing to teach. He always has to maintain this living master/lord trip and it is a poor substitute for an honest relationship with life. His pose as something superiour has fooled and ruined many people and he goes on to infect others. One person is so consistantly bad yet HE is the godhead? No way. If he has posted here as I believe, his thoughts were thrown back at him as unsuitable for any real person and perhaps he is referring to that as well. Fine with me if he wants to encase himself further, but it is way to late for him to start clamping down on his own views. If he wanted to keep something to himself he could keep his 'i am god' trip to himself and stop trying to fool others into believing it. What part of the talk was important to anybody? There is no shortage of people wanting to tell us through books or church, or television about life and how to live. It is only when we are consistantly looking to him for clues and answers and love that we find value in him. But his words are part of a whole vortex that draws people only to doing his desires. And exhalting him. You remember any other quotes? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 00:30:54 (EST)
From: Rick Email: None To: Memphis Belle Subject: Seattle Event - CANCELLED! Message: Hi Belle, I know that feeling of adrenaline you're talking about. I get that too, sometimes. Usually it's a tug of war between attraction and repulsion. It's absurd for anyone to delineate what can be shared between people. Why limit it? Rick Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 00:57:25 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Memphis Belle Subject: Seattle Event - CANCELLED! Message: Memphis, thanks for the clarification. I wonder why he felt it necessary to mess up premies' plane tickets. I doubt convenience of others has ever been much of a concern for him, although his own comfort has always been paramount. He said that you can not share anything with anyone else but your own self. I personally am not interested in a world where sharing love with another human being is not possible. In my opinion, it's about the best thing there is. Frankly, one of the things that really turned me off from BM and premies was the self-centeredness of the whole cult. Because of the bizarre ideology BM preaches, premies tend to focus ONLY on their own, personal, EXPERIENCE, and, of course, on BM and everything else is considered secondary, perhaps an illusion at best, and a trap at worst. I agree with Bill that this is propogated by BM's own dysfunctionality when it comes to relating to other human beings. It IS somewhat easier to live this way, but you also miss a helluva lot. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Jun 07, 1998 at 13:10:54 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Hey you spiritual wienies Message: Listen guys, I just read a couple of articles in 'Free Inquiry' again that are incredible. I'd never looked at this magazine before but saw it and picked it up a couple of weeks ago. I really recommend it, especially to any of you guys still plagued by delusions of spirituality, psychic stuff and whatever. Particularly fascinating, now, is an article by Quentin Smith called 'Big Bang Cosmology and Atheism: Why the Big Bang is no help to Theists'. Pretty incredible. 'Sizing up Secular Creationism' by Barbara Ehrenreich and Janet McIntosh was also good. The whole magazine is. Come on, guys, time to walk on the sunny side. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Jun 07, 1998 at 17:58:04 (EST)
From: Judex Email: None To: Jim Subject: Hey weird science Message: Just for kicks I watched a 1/2 hour science show last night on the subject of parallel universes. I mentioned once reading a series of 'channelled' books by a woman called Jane Roberts about parallel universes. Either she was sneaking a look at the scientists notes or what I don't know - but it's really similar material. So this is the weird stuff. In quantum physics they have found at the molecular level atoms do not obey consistent laws eg a ball bouncing off a window would bounce back once, and the next time go through (without breaking the glass) when all other situations are identical. Therefore, all the big wig quantum scientists now believe there are a series of parallel universes, and like putting a film projection over the top of another one, nature sort of 'makes up it's mind' (or maybe doesn't - unless there's an observer) which universe to manifest into our reality. So there are literally other universes parallel and similar to our own which exist simultaneously. Right now I could be writing a different post about how I hate science and love Maharaji. The scientist who was interviewed, I think his name was Paul Davies, said he personally thinks the other universes are less 'real' than ours. He said the time the physical world crosses over into the 'classical' universe (where everything obeys laws) is when an object/organism become complex enough. Now these guys are supposed to be really intelligent. BTW, apparently Einstein hated this stuff, and it is of this he said 'God doesn't play dice with the universe'. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Jun 07, 1998 at 21:05:35 (EST)
From: Cheddar & ketchup Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: Judex Subject: Hey weird science Message: I agree with you there Judex. I actually think this paralell universe stuff is most bizarre, particularly since there's absolutely no evidence for it. It's just something some bored scientists thought up because it sounds clever. However, the idea that the universe is in many different dimensions of time and space is more plausable and one which Einstein put forward. It does have a mathematical basis. Now some here won't agree with this but I believe that the very fact that the universe exists and appears to have come out of nothing is clear evidence that there is more to existence than just this physical universe. If once there was no physical universe, i.e. nothing; how did something come from nothing? That in itself has never been explained scientifically. My theory is that although there was once a physical nothing, i.e. nothing on this vibrational wavelength, there was plenty of 'something' which already existed on a different wavelength to the physical and that something transmuted itself into a physical something. I am saying here that the physical universe is just one aspect of existence and not the sum total of existence. It is far more far-fetched to say that the universe appeared out of nowhere and nothing. I mean, that idea's so unreal it makes the astrology look sensible! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Jun 07, 1998 at 03:10:50 (EST)
From: Selena Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Fear and Loathing in the 90's Message: warning - this is a long post. I just got back from seeing Fear and loathing in Las Vegas. I have always been a Hunter Thompson fan. I think I read every book. Also lived in Aspen for a while. The movie caught the book better than I thought a movie could. Credit to Johnny Depp and also Terry Gilliam (12 Monkeys, Monty Python, Brazil) Anyway, the movie ends with a haunting quote from the book, which I happen to have in front of me and I wanted to post it: ============ regarding Timothy Leary and the acid generation==== ....the fatal flaw in Tim Leary's trip. He crashed around America selling 'consciousness expansion' without ever giving a thought to the meat hook realities that were lying in wait for all the people who took him too seriously. ... :there is not much satisfaction in knowing that he blew it very badly for himself, because he took too many others down with him. Not that they didn't deserve it. no doubt they all Got What Was Coming To Them. All those pathetically eager acid freaks who thought they could buy Peace and Understanding for three bucks a hit. But their loss and failure is ours, too. What Leary took down with him was the central illusion of a whole lifestyle that he helped to create ... a generation of permananet cripples, failed seekers, who never understood the essential old mystic fallacy of the Acid Culture: the desperate assumption that somebody - or at least some force- is tending the Light at the end of the tunnel. ======================end =========== right on Hunter. crazy drunk or whatever, I appreciate the words so much. I guess a lot of other people did too. After all they made a movie. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Jun 07, 1998 at 04:54:48 (EST)
From: Judex Email: None To: Selena Subject: Object of my Affection Message: I hate to add this light weight movie to your thread but I took my mum to see it today (I take her to all the movies I wouldn't admit to wanting to see). It was really good - the actor playing the (gay) object of her affection, Paul Rhee (?) was in Clueless too, he is so good. I like all these dark haired actors with soft/intelligent eyes (eg Midnight in the Garden of Good and Evil - actually both actors in that, Kevin Spacey and ..can't think of his name (tall, dark hair, plays the writer)..and they're probably all gay. God, men! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Jun 07, 1998 at 10:05:13 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: Selena Subject: Fear and Loathing in the 90's Message: Selena - Thanks. I don't like Hunter Thompson's writing style, but I think he's a genius. My husband loves him so we will probably see the movie. That quote is astonishing - do you know if it's from 'F & L in Las Vegas?' Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Jun 07, 1998 at 11:05:18 (EST)
From: Rick Email: None To: Selena Subject: Fear and Loathing in the 90's Message: Selena, I saw Fear and Loathing the day it came out. Best translation of a book to movie I've ever seen. They portrayed it just like I imagined it. I particularly liked the desk receptionist at the hotel they were checking into and the clerk at the DA's convention. Also, the old ladies coming out of the casino they were entering when they took the ether. I've always loved Hunter Thompson. But LSD was a hell of a lot more integrified than BM. Rick Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Jun 07, 1998 at 13:07:18 (EST)
From: Selena Email: None To: Rick Subject: Fear and Loathing in the 90's Message: Yes Katie The quote is from the end of the book. and they end the movie with it also. As Rick said they did an excellent job - the only thing I found missing were more of his insights. It's a crazy funny book but he does have something serious to say. It does come across in the movie. I just would have liked a little more. I was surprised how good it was actually, I couldn't imagine being able to translate that book to movie. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Jun 07, 1998 at 13:37:01 (EST)
From: Rick Email: None To: Selena Subject: Fear and Loathing in the 90's Message: Yeah, now that I think back on it, there were lots of insights they didn't put in the movie. I read it in 87, but you jogged my memory. It would have been easy to slip that stuff in, as they got the hard part down; recreating the ambience and characters. Someone else reminded me of the scene in the book where Thompson does a hit of pure adrenaline off the tip of a matchstick, that was omitted from the movie also. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Jun 07, 1998 at 13:37:28 (EST)
From: Selena Email: None To: Rick Subject: Fear and Loathing in the 90's Message: forgot to say, I loved the desk receptionist too! I have seen those types over and over at the various hotels I have checked into, even without being stoned on ether or lsd they are scary. that was a great scene, same with the Vegas crowd. Can you imagine that place in the 70's? Still hanging on to the 50's crooner polyester age, while all these crazy acid freaks are emerging. What a great idea for a book. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Jun 07, 1998 at 19:53:25 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Rick Subject: Fear and Loathing in the 90's Message: Actually, I was kind of disappointed in the movie, although I still think it was pretty good. I read the book at least 25 years ago, so maybe my memories of the book aren't that vivid, although I do remember it as being pretty wild. But I thought Johnny Depp was too 'over the top' to be believable, and the movie was imaginative, but other than showing scenes of the effects of acid trips, the movie didn't really seem to go anywhere, and my memory is that the book really did. I also really like Hunter S. Thompson, but I think he became a bit silent in the 80s, probably when his commentary was needed most. I do remember the Nixon article, but he wasn't the only one pointing out how bizarre it was that people like Clinton were lavishing praise on the deceased scumbag who was Nixon. But he was probably the only one that Rolling Stone would publish. Selena, thanks for the quote. I read the book before I received knowledge. Guess I never made the connection in what he was saying to getting into Maharaji's cult. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Jun 07, 1998 at 20:28:35 (EST)
From: Selena Email: None To: JW Subject: Fear and Loathing in the 90's Message: The quote was what really got to me. When I cam home I went looking for my old copy. It's got a torn front cover and all the pages are brown and brittle. But i reread the passage, and I still say if you substitute M and premies in the right places, it describes us. Well me at least and anyone who thought they could get an express ticket to enlightenment. I read Leary right before M came to Philidelphia and so I was already primed. Who knows? I guess I agreee with HST - I Got What I Deserved in a way, but my loss is our generations loss. and if x is any example, it didn't stop withour generation. Our children had to put up with a world of shit because of it. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Jun 07, 1998 at 13:52:23 (EST)
From: Selena Email: None To: Selena Subject: Fear and Loathing in the 90's Message: I feel kind of emberrassed to keep commenting on my own thread but.. What I find so intense about that quote I posted is, if I substiture M for Tim Leary and premies for acid freaks, I find it to be a fairly accurate portrayal of that group as well - me included. And to think, i read that book in 1982 and didn't even think of the parallel. damn! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Jun 07, 1998 at 14:12:27 (EST)
From: Rick Email: None To: Selena Subject: Thompson and Nixon Message: Did you read Thompson's obit of Nixon? I think it was in 95. I think it was in his book 'Better Than Sex' and excerpted for Rolling Stone magazine. The media was rewriting and glorifying Nixon's history and Thompson not-so-gently reminded us that Nixon was scum. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Jun 07, 1998 at 14:30:46 (EST)
From: Selena Email: None To: Rick Subject: Thompson and Nixon Message: I missed that one. He certainly hated Nixon. Remember Fear and Loathing on the Campaign Trail? The part where he takes a leak with Nixon standing next to him at the other urinal? Actually I just remembered this movie with Bill Murray as HST that had that scene in it. Also excerpts from F and L in Los Vegas. It wasn't nearly as good a movie, but it had it's moments. It was called 'Where the Buffalo Roam'. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Jun 07, 1998 at 14:49:48 (EST)
From: Rick Email: None To: Selena Subject: Thompson and Nixon Message: I heard about Where the Buffalo Roam but never saw it. I read Fear and Loathing on the Campaign Trail. Couldn't believe Thompson got so close to Nixon... supposedly cause they rooted for the same sports team or something. According to a story I read, Thompson's lawyer in the Vegas book was actually Chicano and was pissed off that he'd been referred to as Samoan. Thompson said he was trying to protect him by hiding his identity. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Jun 07, 1998 at 19:29:09 (EST)
From: Selena Email: None To: Rick Subject: Thompson and Nixon Message: I also read a story or an essay Thompson wrote, maybe in The Great Shark Hunt - where he talks about the lawyer disappearing. He spent lots of money and went traveling and detecting all over the place trying to find him and never did. He suspected that he had been murdered, he was mixed up in some heavy political activist thing (or maybe a drug thing?) - I forget, but he was never found. it's a powerful piece of writing. Judex- sorry to say it but I think Jim Morrison is cool too. I love the Doors music and his lyrics were amazing when they were. and, shallow me, it didn't hurt that he was sexy as hell. sorry, just being me. I also think that Hunter Thompson, in his own way made a powerful statement against drugs by debunking the glamourous or spiritual aspects of them. He showed that it turns people into selfish base animals. It's like, go ahead if you want to and you may even have fun smetimes but don't expect your life to work out. And definitely not to find God. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Jun 07, 1998 at 22:42:07 (EST)
From: Gerry Email: None To: Selena Subject: Thompson and Nixon Message: I also think that Hunter Thompson, in his own way made a powerful statement against drugs by debunking the glamourous or spiritual aspects of them. He showed that it turns people into selfish base animals. It's like, go ahead if you want to and you may even have fun smetimes but don't expect your life to work out. And definitely not to find God. Good God Selena, this could apply to 'spiritual practices' as well, IMHO! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Jun 08, 1998 at 22:15:37 (EST)
From: *<*...b Email: None To: Gerry Subject: practices Message: I guess your right. I heard a guy on sat. talk about all his practices and disciplines. For all his doings he is not someone you would want in your house full time or as a claose co-worker. I was listening to him rattle off his list of activities and I thought, well, this should teach me something. doc and others have practiced the knowledge perfectly for years and they are revolting as humans. All I have come up with so far in the last couple days is that your attitude is key and that how you relate to the next person and how you feel now, is in truth, your relationship with god, or the life force. What do you think? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 08:07:45 (EST)
From: Judex Email: None To: *<*...b Subject: practices Message: I know this is addressed to Gerry - hope you don't mind me saying - that has struck a chord with me. Well said! Whoo-whoo! Maybe too close for comfort! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 22:44:58 (EST)
From: Gerry Email: None To: *<*...b Subject: practices Message: *<*...b, Jees, I miss this one until now... All I have come up with so far in the last couple days is that your attitude is key and that how you relate to the next person and how you feel now, is in truth, your relationship with god, or the life force. Bill (it is Bill isn't it?), Can't add much to that. I think you hit it square on the head. What are they practicing for? Some cosmic debutante ball, for chrissake? This is it. It aint no dry run. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Jun 07, 1998 at 18:23:04 (EST)
From: Judex Email: None To: Selena Subject: Fear and Loathing in the 90's Message: a generation of permananet cripples, failed seekers, who never understood the essential old mystic fallacy of the Acid Culture: the desperate assumption that somebody - or at least some force- is tending the Light at the end of the tunnel. I wasn't in a serious mood when I first read this post, but I would like to add my 2 cents worth. Certainly reading 'The Politics of Ectasy' encouraged me to keep taking LSD. Since there weren't many support systems around about it, books such as that and 'Doors of Perception: Heaven and Hell' by A. Huxley were some of the limited material you could actually read about LSD. (Oh, there was always Ken Kesey's (?) 'the Electric Kool Aid Acid Test'.) At that time I remember reading books like On the Road, Dharma Bums. But god, I still remember 'Tune In, Drop Out' or something. Didn't mention who was going to feed you when you did. I also read many years later in those channelled books I mentioned in the science post that LSD is one of the most dangerous things you can do - that it 'punches holes' in your aura, leaving you exposed to phsyic influences of all kinds (eg yukky low-life discarnate entities/energy bodies who try to infiltrate you) Come to think of it, I saw a few horrible hallucinations of 'monster' type things. Personally I would never compare M to LSD, for myself, but in the 70's maybe it was similarly far-out. One idea I was told was that meditation practices, having been built up over thousands of years, are grounded, and 'proved' safe, in a way. Instant pathways through your brain's grids are not. How many people could handle the intensity of those experiences. I used to feel there is a whole generation of damaged people out there (or not out there anymore) because of LSD. Where are the spokespeople of our generation, the elders, the wise ex hippies with something to teach the next generation? That's why I was glad to hear some of the people hear did take LSD and are still sane and well and doing other things. Because for the youth of today, for example, they don't even think of drugs as doorways to perception, love, truth, whatever. They are just about self destruction, getting out of it. There is no mythology attached. They still listen to Jim Morrison and think it's cool. Who's going to tell them the end results - eg madness, suicide. Timothy Leary was one sick fucker if you ask me. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Jun 07, 1998 at 20:52:59 (EST)
From: Selena Email: None To: Judex Subject: Fear and Loathing in the 90's Message: Yes It would appear that Tim was one sick fucker. I don't know if he intended to be. I think he was incredibly arrogant and like HST said, he didn't think about all the people he was influencing. I know he did spend time on the lecture circuit well into the late 80's or even later, expounding his latest beliefs, space station living, etc. LSD was heavy. Indiginous people have used peyote and mescaline, but they were far more advanced about it and I believe used it for what it was meant to be and in the right time and place. I know I can't handle it and I agree about it kind of tearing holes. breakthroughs that just aren't meant to happen that fast. Just reread my first couple sentences here and still say I see a lot of similarites to the big M. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Jun 07, 1998 at 21:23:08 (EST)
From: Rick Email: None To: Judex and Selena Subject: Timothy Leary Message: I think that Timothy Leary was neither sick nor a fucker. The 50's was drab and colorless. The values of society were about status, money and saving face; the fallout was repression, racism and unhappiness. A generation of bored kids had their eyes opened by taking LSD, and it helped change Western society for the better. A future of a rigid job, an uptight marriage and quiet despair was replaced with the possibility of doing something rewarding, being in a satisfying relationship and at the very least considering that happiness was possible. Navigating the waters of psychedelia is indeed perilous, and no doubt there were many casualities. I'm not even sure that I'm not one of them... but the damage caused by the 'darkness' that LSD helped to illuminate is far worse; a world overrun by greed, technology, deception and corruption. That is sick and the people who perpetuate that are fuckers . Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Jun 07, 1998 at 21:36:53 (EST)
From: Selena Email: None To: Rick Subject: Timothy Leary Message: Rick I agree regarding the sick fucked up world run by greed and technology. The world of the generation before us was awful. I did say I didn't think he intended what happened, he just wasn't all that concerned or thought it was worth it, i don't know. and, my corner of the world is still overurn by greed and technoloby albiet better working conditions if you can ignore the stress and occasional 60 to 70 hour weeks. yet I see every day pan-handlers my age ( or worse, the new breed in their teens and early 20's) They stand on street corners and in front of drug stores. They have no capacity to cope with this greedy techno world. They got too stoned for too long. Leary just was one of many catalysts. Our own government supposedly let LSD loose on the streets in the first place, testing it on hookers and junkies and insane asylum residents, even on military subjects. I am not targeting him in particular, this all started because I saw some wisdon in HSt's passage and saw a parallet to M and premies. Thanks for the other view. It always helps. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Jun 07, 1998 at 22:00:47 (EST)
From: Rick Email: None To: Selena Subject: Timothy Leary Message: Without splitting hairs, low-achievement and failure was as popular before acid, as after. And the real culprits of today's disenfranchised may have been alcohol, cocaine and speed; drugs without a conscience. I think Leary was sincere and made the best of what there was to work with. He took some punches himself including exile and prison. All in all, acid gave far more bang for the buck than the BM. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Jun 07, 1998 at 22:12:31 (EST)
From: Selena Email: None To: Rick Subject: Timothy Leary Message: Gotta go now, but I had to say: I got more out of acid (peyote was really more my favorite) than BM also. I do understand what you are saying. Alcohol, IMHO is the worst of the lot. I hate it and what it has doen to my family and the world in general. Hey I'm Irish after all! As I said Rick thank you for that point of view. Maybe I am just feeling a little intense about acid cause I recently got back from SF and walked up Haight to Golden Gate Park and saw some sad remnants of shells of people. Plus as I said, that passage got to me big time. I love his writing. but... I'm glad for the things I did learn from those years. Hey, got any acid? Just kidding. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Jun 08, 1998 at 22:59:16 (EST)
From: *<*...b Email: None To: Rick Subject: Acid daze Message: I loved acid. excepting of course the green acid of woodstock. Sometimes I would have to go through that harsh introspection and see the emptyness and the fact that something was missing. But that would always be followed by a breakthrough into a great feeling and a completeness and I remember recogniseing again and again at those points that I would be feeling my breathing and saying this is all I need, to feel full and live. Why rawat came sailing on the scene with such grevious flaws and defects is beyond me. The breath angle got me for starters. The only guess I make is that the breath is something more than just an air nutrient feed for the dna to survive. We tripped for a couple months and it was beautiful. acid music, beach sunrises everyday, parties and friends and ease. I didn't like all the other drugs. Except pot. I went to business school the next year and tripped about once a week. When downers came on the scene all the people went dark and all the brilliance and laughter went. I didnt do downers. But on my last acid trip it was so incredible that I recognised there was some higher power and that was the next area I needed to know. Tried reading the bible and it was impossible. I finally realized jesus words were written in red and so I just read those. Someone told me prem rawat was -well, you know, and he was here to do this big thing. what a detour. I guess the only thing I needed after the acid was just to feel my life and respect and have a good attitude about those around me and enjoy them and all the great features to living. No apparent need for a false lord. Thompson did too many odd drugs and alchohol. I have F&L in vegas. It is a hoot to read but to live that type of drug and alchohol life is rough on everything if I am to believe some people I know that did that and ended up in AA. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 00:05:10 (EST)
From: Rick Email: None To: *<*...b Subject: Acid daze Message: No question about it *<*...b, the drug combinations they were doing in Fear and Loathing were a road to ruin. But I think it was the brown acid at Woodstock, not green. Anyway, I'd agree about being simple and treating people right as a more effective means to God than hoisting Tubby up as a diety. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 00:36:01 (EST)
From: JW Email: joger02@aol.com To: Rick Subject: Sleeping Where I Fall Message: I'm just about finished reading Peter Coyote's new book called 'Sleeping Where I Fall.' It's a terrific book, really setting the record straight on the 60s, which has been so misrepresented during the past 20 years. He talks a lot about the psycho-social effects of drugs, as well as the whole melieu of the time, and the effects on kids that grew up in communes, etc. I really recommend the book, as it really captures the innocent, idealistic, loving that went on. It's kind of funny, because I see Peter at my health club. He seems like such a normal, average guy, until he speaks and you hear that amazing voice as heard on so many television commercials and public service announcements. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 00:41:19 (EST)
From: Rick Email: None To: JW Subject: Sleeping Where I Fall Message: Sounds interesting. I may read that book. I think I've seen him in movies. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 00:54:55 (EST)
From: *<*...b Email: None To: Rick Subject: Acid daze Message: It must have been the movie were somone said 'brown acid' because others thought it was brown acid also. But the announcement they made was for the green and I think even G. Slick mentioned that on the second woodstock album. the green. Small point I know, I only bought that green acid because a black guy came around selling it and he was the first black guy to ask me to buy something in my life and there was no chance of me saying no. Not in 69. The lineup that day was: a couple bad bands, then santana, Mountain,Canned heat,grateful dead,creedence,JanisJoplin, sly and the stone,the who and the Airplane. You say things very well. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 00:05:31 (EST)
From: Selena Email: None To: *<*...b Subject: Acid daze Message: Done with work. I got a baby step ahead. enuf's enuf. My favorite all time psychedelic experience was when I took peyote and just sat in my back yard. peyote makes you nauseous, but, err after... Everything just got so pretty! and so light and yet so spiritual. None of the heavy stuff I felt with acid. Just a pure celebration of life. sigh. why am I posting this? Time to pack up and leave work and have one of Gerry's V&Ts I guess. p.s. I am posting this because I am remembering something that meant a lot to me and it's sad we can't go home again. ---Selena, signing off and feeling the results of programming for a living - especially when nothing worked all night. I'm with you Robyn - computers and me aren't friends tonite. I'd have to say this 'voluntary' work night was a bust :( Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 01:25:10 (EST)
From: *<*...b Email: None To: Selena Subject: Acid daze Message: Jeez Selena, Someone came to visit me at my second college the business one and came in the door wearing 2,000 peyote buttons strung like a hawaiian lei around thier neck. He said there were 2,000. Seemed like it. We tried to swallow the stuff but it is amazingly bad tasteing. Finally I think peanut butter was used but it was still god-awful. During the trip I though, man, FIRST, the plant has spikes on it, meaning keep away, THEN, you have to dig out the white fuzz because it is stricknine, a poison, THEN, it tastes SOOO bad that you can hardly choke it past your tongue. So I figured it was not a good idea so I asked the guy to leave and not sell it there. What about mushrooms? You try those? They are easier going down. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 19:13:26 (EST)
From: Selena Email: None To: *<*...b Subject: Acid daze Message: yes peyote was awful tasting. We were young. What can I say? I only did it twice. To further gross you out, you have to throw up after you start to come on or it's nasty. Mushrooms were nice. I am just over sensitive to all that stuff. I had to 'microdose' or I'd leave the planet or something. hmmm, I wonder if it would help programming? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Jun 07, 1998 at 01:48:07 (EST)
From: x Email: None To: Everyone Subject: child of knowledge Message: I have been monitoring your website for a while,but this is my first contribution.I am working on my journal entry,but its not quite there yet.I'm coming from a different angle here, in that both my parents are long term premies,and I got knowledge when I was seven years old.I quickly saw that it was B.S. and moved on.My mother is very addicted to BM,and her and her friends support the guru's every move.She is very hard to get through to. I'm curious if there is anyone out there who is a parent or child or relative or friend of any premies who wish to comment on any of this. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Jun 07, 1998 at 03:18:14 (EST)
From: carol Email: None To: x Subject: child of knowledge Message: To x. I am wondering how old you are now. I am a mother of 4 sons and the oldest got K at age 16 in '85. I had it since I was 21 in 1972. I used to believe very strongly in the value of K and of devotion to M. For the last 10 years I have drifted away from both practice and seeing M until recently, I had to face the truth that I was not a premie any more. I am relieved. I know that if someone believes in it they want everyone they care about to share their experience. You are brave to take an independent stand for yourself. I realized some time ago that I did not want to share or try to bring people to K. I encourage my sons to be strong and independent and to choose their lives for themselves, so long as they do no harm. I also share my belief in a loving creator and that there are many teachers and paths to truth. It it very difficult if not impossible to change others, but you can change your own attitudes and reactions and find a way to live with those who think differently than you. I hope we on this forum can be of help to you. Blessings,carol Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Jun 07, 1998 at 13:02:04 (EST)
From: x Email: None To: carol Subject: child of knowledge Message: I am 31 years old now.I never really believed in any of this cult,and at a young age i was already disgusted that anyone,particularly adults that I relied on for everything,could be so blind and foolish.I'll never even know how many problems I have now, are a result of BM's megolomania mixed with the low self esteem of my parents.I have struggled with hard drugs for many years and have argued with my mother about the simalarity beetween our addictions.addiction is addiction whether its heroin,sex,gambling or Maharaji, they put you in denial and slowly grind away your humanity.Not to mention your finances!I would advise anyone with kids or close relatives to consider the effect their involvement may have had on innocent by-standers like me.Ex-premie kids where are you? I know I wasn't the only one dragged around the country in the 70's,so I could watch a bunch of grown men and women kiss some assholes lotus feet,and then do likewise!I want to hear some one try to justify dragging innocent kids into such a toxic enviroment. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Jun 07, 1998 at 13:16:50 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: x Subject: child of knowledge Message: Hey x, Good to hear from you. So you don't think Maharaji is the Lord of the Universe? Is that what I hear you saying? Because, if it is, you shouldn't hesitate to express yourself here. Don't be shy. :) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Jun 07, 1998 at 13:59:52 (EST)
From: MOT cheesecloth Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: Jim Subject: Lord of the Universe Message: Does anyone realise just how big the universe is? There's about 200,000,000,000 (200 billion) stars in our Milky Way galaxy which is an insignificant little galaxy which will one day be swallowed up by the much bigger Andromeda galaxy which is just another in our local cluster of galaxies. And yet there are roughly speaking another 200 billion galaxies in the known universe. And let's not forget, the 'known' universe may only be a tiny part of the whole shebang. Anyone claiming to be the Lord of all THAT has some pretty good real estate capital. I don't think he'd need many donations. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Jun 07, 1998 at 14:09:43 (EST)
From: Selena Email: None To: x Subject: child of knowledge Message: Hi x Thanks so much for writing that! I wonder if you caught my thread about how hard it's been for me to handle the guilt of being a premie and dragging my children through that shit. I have some good things to say though. I posted here once how proud I was to hear my son, now 25, say 'why do they always talk about receiving knowledge? If it's inside everyone, it's inside and we aren't so stupid we need some guru to show it to us' He said that at christmas, right after I had returned from LB disgusted and finally ready to get off the fence. Neither of my sons are interested at all and it's a relief. At least the cycle has been broken and now the healing can occur, for me and them and you. Take care. And my 2 cents, don't try to reason with premies who are still fanatic about M, even if they are close to you. Others here may not agree with me, but I don't see any point in trying. The best thing to do is not give them ANY energy about it, it's like a little kid, if you try to force them not to play with toy guns all they want to play with is guns. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Jun 07, 1998 at 18:37:32 (EST)
From: Judex Email: None To: x Subject: nature of addiction Message: Dear x, you have a good point about seeing the similarities in addictions. However, on a good day Knowledge can't kill you. I would see it as a non-malignant alternative to drug use. Knowledge itself I don't believe is addictive, but yes, Maharaji can be. But so can anything that has the potential to make you feel good. Unfortunately, 'using' continues to drain your own resources so you can't feel good on your own. I hope you are winning the fight with your addiction. I suppose you have heard the story about the boxer who after getting knocked out hundreds of times, finally gives up boxing. I read that James Taylor said he decided to get off it when he realised just how boring that lifestyle is; nothing ever changes. I know everyone finds different 'turning points' in their own self. Mine was when I reached the lowest point I ever wanted to go, in my feelings, in my life and in my conscience. If there are other people in your life who are addicted to something and you want to be free of your addiction, the best thing you can do is not be with those people, not keep discussing it, justifying it. You need to get right out of the whole scene, eg rehab. It's a very sticky scene but 'tough love' can save your life. It sounds like you are doing okay as I don't think you would be posting here if you were using. I wish you all the best. You will find others here who have overcome addictions and hopefully if you want support you can find it here in many ways. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Jun 07, 1998 at 22:33:34 (EST)
From: Gerry Email: None To: Judex Subject: nature of addiction Message: However, on a good day Knowledge can't kill you. Jude are you forgetting all the people who killed themselves over this thing? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Jun 07, 1998 at 19:58:55 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: x Subject: child of knowledge Message: Dear x - I am curious as to how your mom was able to have you receive Knowledge when you were seven. I got knowledge in 1972, and the age limit then was 13 (even for kids with their parents' permission, which most people did NOT have). I have heard, since then, of some mahatmas giving younger children knowledge (someone said it was only the light and music technique). Is this how you got knowledge? Regards, Katie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Jun 06, 1998 at 19:29:58 (EST)
From: Sam Email: None To: Everyone Subject: My commentairie Message: You have a right with this forum.I have read most of this content.I am very happy student of Maharaji since 9 years and I know that you are mad that he past say crazy things and put you in ashram and make alot of favor from you but can't you just accept this present?His love and mercy and grace are still their waiting for you when you can remember the magnifiquence of dropping your mind.Beleeve it!who care of what he did past times, now you can forget ity and use the gift he gived you.Life don't stop for us me I will try practice gift from Maharaji!You must go away if you wish peace but not peace to find if you are always looking to this past that bother at all you. Maharaji does not bother at you then can't you juste not bothering him? Now I go back.Thankyou to hear me and Peace! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Jun 06, 1998 at 20:26:02 (EST)
From: Selena Email: None To: Sam and all Subject: My commentairie Message: geez, I give up!! I honestly can't discern between who is for real in these premie posts and who is putting me on. I can forgive anyone a second language difficulty, having recently started studying Spanish as a SL. But content wise these posts are always the same and I can't help but think it's the same person posting. Ah but isn't that kind of the point we are trying to make? My break from the forum has left me bewildered. Not just this but Robyn cussing and someone gave her permission, and here I had appointed myself the resident politically brat. Then there's these new people. I'm starting to think I need another break. (but I am having too much fun) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Jun 06, 1998 at 21:22:59 (EST)
From: John Hammond-Smyth Email: padded.cell@asylum.com To: Selena Subject: My commentairie Message: That Frenchman is not me Selena. I've been in my straight jacket all day and hmmmn uhh now my nurse is hhhmmmm uhg putting my gag on. I'll hhhmmm hhhmmmmnn hhhmmmm!!! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Jun 08, 1998 at 19:45:09 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Selena Subject: My commentairie Message: Dear Selena, Glad your finding time to be here, must mean work is letting up! I don't remember how or why I swore now I just know it was fun at the time but if you noticed I just swore, not at anyone really. I was just trying out the male thang! I am still civil really! Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Jun 08, 1998 at 20:00:42 (EST)
From: Selena Email: None To: Robyn Subject: My commentairie Message: Hi Robyn Work has not let up. I am going to be buried for a month or maybe two. sigh. They did finally hire a programmer to assist me, I was amazed. Guess I finally whined enough. I was out of town for a couple weeks, so that was the main reason I didn't log on too often. Now I am in a stage where I don't feel so much stress. The stuff will get done and I can only do what I can do. I tend to work in spurts so I know there will be a few 10 hour evenings soon. I'd rather do it that way actually. It took me a long time to figure that out. I was just joking about the cussing. No big deal I thought it was funny and it's a relief to not be the only intense one around. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Jun 08, 1998 at 20:51:51 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs To: Selena Subject: Selena Message: Dear Selena, I knew you were kidding about the cussing, so was I. Glad that even though you still have some intense work days ahead you aren't stressed out over it. Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Jun 06, 1998 at 22:56:41 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Sam Subject: But Sam, it's fun! Message: Sam, It's fun slagging the asshole, don't you get that? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Jun 06, 1998 at 19:21:42 (EST)
From: Larkin Email: larkin@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: Everyone Subject: Ballad of Premie ji Message: Premie ji wakes lonely in the troubled twilight Fumbles to see light, gives up and sleeps again Premie ji hangs on in quiet desperation Like that Floyd song echoing from way back when Dreams of days of hopes and plans and good companions Days lost deep in Maya's spell - but then again... Premie ji hangs on in quiet desperation Meddies, coffee, kids to school, and then and then... Heart was where the home was, where your good friends gathered Friends she dropped while following the one true way Premie ji hangs on in quiet desperation 'The last laugh will be mine' they'd heard her calmly say Heart is now a place known to the true devotee Truth within is finding yourself newly born Premie ji hangs on in quiet desperation Why, please, won't my heart wake up at crack of dawn? Kids up watching TV as they scream blue murder Mummy - want some juice - and Kelly's kicking me! Premie ji hangs on in quiet desperation Just two minutes bliss to set her soul-bird free But bliss was never there when bliss was sorely needed Times of grieving, years of seeking love and light Premie ji prays now in quiet desperation: Please don't tell me it was all a crock of shite... Seen it, lived it, done it; there's no liberation Gonna chase my friends up that I lost back when Premie ji gives up in sudden desperation: Let heaven go to hell - I need my life again... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Jun 06, 1998 at 21:46:21 (EST)
From: Seelena Email: None To: Larkin Subject: Ballad of Premie ji Message: Brian has competition, I am now a gopi of both of you! Sometimes when a post really gets to me, which is often - I make my poor husband come in and read whether he wants to or not. This was one of them and he loved it too. It reminds us of this ex friend who was never a friend. Tbanks!!!!! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Jun 07, 1998 at 14:22:41 (EST)
From: Larkin Email: larkin@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: Seelena Subject: Ballad of Premie ji Message: Thanks Selena. Larkin Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Jun 06, 1998 at 23:01:51 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Larkin Subject: Not bad, not bad at all Message: Hey Larkin, I liked this one too. Gotta read it again. Maybe I won't like it that much then. Maybe I'll find it too sentimental or opaque or derivative or soemthing. But right now, after a fast read, I like it. Thanks, Jim Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Jun 07, 1998 at 14:27:43 (EST)
From: Larkin Email: larkin@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: Jim Subject: Not bad, not bad at all Message: Maybe I'll find it too sentimental or opaque or derivative or soemthing. But right now, after a fast read, I like it. Er, thanks too, Jim. That was very perceptive (you should have seen the verses that were cut!). I suggest you read them all as quickly as possible in future. Larkin Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Jun 06, 1998 at 23:49:10 (EST)
From: Joy Email: None To: Larkin Subject: Ballad of Premie ji Message: Larkin, does this one have an identifiable tune it's based on? (Like 'I Ain't Gonna Work on Maharaji's Farm No More') I can't tell by reading it . . . Good job, though. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Jun 07, 1998 at 00:13:23 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: Joy Subject: Ballad of Premie ji Message: I may be wrong (completely unmusical) but I can hear it sung to 'My Opening Farewell' (Jackson Browne). Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Jun 07, 1998 at 14:32:02 (EST)
From: Larkin Email: larkin@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: Joy and Katie Subject: Ballad of Premie ji Message: This one doesn't have a tune, and isn't a parody of anything. In fact, I can't think of at tune that would fit, since the lines have an unusual number of syllables. I don't know the Jackson Browne song, Katie, so couldn't say one way or the other. Thanks Larkin Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Jun 07, 1998 at 18:44:31 (EST)
From: Judex Email: None To: Larkin Subject: Ballad of Premie ji - tune Message: The Satguru is in my head The Satguru is in my head Remembering breath, and holy name and bird got to keep the focus on the word... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Jun 08, 1998 at 18:34:30 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Larkin Subject: Ballad of Premie ji Message: Dear Larkin, You are a joy! Another good poem. I have an unrelated question. Do you read posts here. Do you have opinions on them? I'm sure you do, why do you not respond to any? I am not trying to give you a hard time I just wondered. Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Jun 06, 1998 at 18:51:45 (EST)
From: Judex Email: None To: Everyone Subject: 8 day week - off topic Message: I haven't heard about this idea before although I'm sure others have. My daughter mentioned it last night and we were discussing it. eg if we created an 8 day week - people could work 5 days then have 3 off. Or work 2 days, have 2 off, work 2 days, another 2 off. Just the thought of changing something as fundamental as the 'week' and thinking outside of that square in order to maybe improve quality of life is an exciting concept, I think. Most people where I work are envious that I have 2 afternoons off. They sigh that all they want is an extra day off a week (especially women with children) - yet obviously they need the full-time wage + conditions to live on. Some days they look so exhausted you know they aren't capable of doing a really good day's work - yet they have to be there. I mean this may be naiive but all it is doing is putting one day off into the future. Like going from a 'savings' economy to a 'credit' economy where suddenly you 'create' all this 'wealth'. What do others think? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Jun 07, 1998 at 08:41:39 (EST)
From: Man of the cheesecloth Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: Judex Subject: 8 day week - off topic Message: I think the Romans were responsible for our seven day week. If you had an eight day week then you'd be losing five working days every 56 days (as compared with a seven day week) if you had a tree day weekend. Interesting how much of modern life is based on old societies. Take us driving on the left in Britain. In Europe before Napolean, everybody drove or rode their horses on the left. Napolean tried unsucessfully to defeat the British ans so he began to hate everything British. So he decreed that the whole of Europe that he'd captured should drive/ride on the RIGHT so that they would be different to Britain. I don't know at what point America changed to driving/riding on the right. Maybe it was after the war of independence, for similar reasons to Napolean. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Jun 07, 1998 at 12:16:51 (EST)
From: Gerry Email: None To: Man of the cheesecloth Subject: 8 day week - off topic Message: My understanding of history after the Revolutionary War with England is that few Americans ''hated'' the Brits, as a huge majority were originally from England, and still had family, business and cultural ties to the 'old country' There just wasn't the animosities, ancient feuds and resentments with England that France had. Just that damn tea tax pissed us off... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Jun 07, 1998 at 18:48:14 (EST)
From: Judex Email: None To: Man of the cheesecloth Subject: 8 day week - off topic Message: If you had an eight day week then you'd be losing five working days every 56 days Yes but you can't lose something you don't have! You just redefine the year, the whole framework. I know I'm wrong but then again, why not? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Jun 08, 1998 at 19:30:53 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Judex Subject: 8 day week - off topic Message: Dear Judex, I would approve of 4 - 10 hour days, myself. The calander is set to the solar system and how we move around the sun. If you just arbritaraly (sp) change it day and night would be royally screwed up! Maybe Alaskans would fare better but most would be wacked out and not by drugs! Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Jun 08, 1998 at 19:40:33 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: Robyn Subject: 8 day week - off topic Message: Dear Robyn - there is NO way I could work four ten-hour days in a row every week. I know you often do more than this, and I sincerely admire you for it. I tend to work very quickly, and very intensely, and I get burned out fast. (My sister has the same problem and has solved it by contracting her services by the hour - she is a small business bookkeeper for businesses that don't need a full-time accountant. She can charge a lot of money because she's so fast, and she still doesn't need to work full-time.) Anyway, what I would like is a siesta at the worst part of the day for me - late afternoon. Either that or a six-hour day! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 13:11:07 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Judex Subject: 8 day week - off topic Message: I think it's interesting that the French have just passed legislation mandating a shorter work week, I think to 35 hours. The point is to reduce the high unemployment in France by making it necessary to hire more workers. At least that's how the logic goes. I don't know if this will work, but I think this is the direction in which we should be thinking, rather than just working longer hours, no matter how many days there are in a week. I would be concerned the business would decide that an 8-day week just added one additional day of work. In other words the weekend would come after 6 days instead of 5. Something tells me that the workers woudln't get the better end of the deal. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 16:19:22 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: JW Subject: Nigel the dalmation Message: Dear Joe, You were on my mind this morning as I sat and picked white dalmation hair off my black sweater. Hope you are well. Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Jun 06, 1998 at 11:44:09 (EST)
From: RT Email: soon To: Everyone Subject: Humor: RT reveals his.... Message: Good Day! It's Time for RT! I enjoy your comments - so I have decided to Reveal my SELF to you: I am like one of you, only more so! But first, Who I AM NOT! I AM not Charles Cameraon, Author of Who Is Suing Maharaji? I AM not from The Capitol Steps: they are not interested in His Politics. I AM not Robyn Williams, Michael Bolton, or Swami Beyondananda. - I wish I were Michael. I'd move to Bolton, Connecticut and declare it a charity-free zone. - Yes, In My Prior Incarnations, I was here before- I came as Shakespeare, for the Play. (Be still and know that I AM Bard) I, RT, came as P.T. Barnum, as the Master of Reception (Hey, kid, Be still - No Admission without Permission.) I came as Monty Python, for the Animation. (Be still, you Ninny, and know that I AM. Not. Am SO. Am Not. Are So. Are NOT.) And now - I UPLOAD, with more POWER ( - version seven point oh) - than ever before, TO S P R E A D the W O R D S and make T.H.E.M. G O A W A Y ! (T.H.E.M. : Tutored Harping Embedded by Maharaji ) * Ding*......... Humor also removes: -Antiquated Concepts of Grammar and Grandpar Mahatma! -'Yes- you old tools - can go to Spell! For what you said to us you should be charged SYNTAX!' ~ Lo, I AM all things Good. - HUMOR 'R' ME - YES - as Saint Marc Appleman realized, Uncle LAM wants you! (Life After Maharaji) SO, Join the HUMOR ARMY Laugh off your experience! - Laugh In Life Acceptance! -because- WE WAS GYP-SEED - RAM-BOOZELED - GOODWINKED - THE GREATEST SAT-STING OPERATION OF THE YUGA BUCAUSE: WE CO-CREATED THE PLAY! We bought the farm, the weeds, the flowers, horse manure, baskets of eggs, fields of beauty, the whole divine yards! And It Was Our Vision: The New-Clear Mission. Exploding belief systems everywhere, leaving a new one in it's wake. And now it's time we use those radiation suits - the ones with the mirrored faceplates! : - ) Hope this helps! I pray. Lord, make them laugh. ( If you don't, Lord, I will rewrite ARTI. ) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Jun 06, 1998 at 14:41:01 (EST)
From: Selena Email: None To: RT Subject: Humor: RT reveals his.... Message: I'd love to have you write about my workplace guru!! Thanks for the smiles. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Jun 06, 1998 at 18:43:47 (EST)
From: Larkin Email: larkin@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: RT Subject: Humor: RT reveals his.... Message: Nice post, and thanks for the chuckle, RT. But as far as Arti rewrites go, I beatcha to it: http://www.redcrow.demon.co.uk/barkin.html But the ex-premie world is all about freedom of expression for everyone, so if you've got one too, then please.... Thanks again. Larkin Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Jun 06, 1998 at 05:14:57 (EST)
From: Judex Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Movie Message: I read Jane Campion is making a movie about a person caught in a cult called 'Holy Smoke', being filmed in India and elsewhere. Could be interesting. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Jun 06, 1998 at 14:42:13 (EST)
From: Selena Email: None To: Judex Subject: Movie Message: Hi Judex What else has Jane Campion done? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Jun 06, 1998 at 16:13:08 (EST)
From: Judex Email: None To: Selena Subject: Movie Message: Angel at my Table, The Piano, Portrait of a Lady Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Jun 06, 1998 at 16:16:06 (EST)
From: Judex Email: None To: Everyone Subject: grammar school Message: making a movie about a person caught in a cult called 'Holy Smoke', talking about syntax, RT, look what I did to this sentence! naughty me. the movie, not the person, or indeed the cult, is called holy smoke. sacre bleu! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Jun 05, 1998 at 23:16:56 (EST)
From: Selena Email: None To: Everyone Subject: corporate gooroo Message: Hi Everyone, I am a basketball widow. Seems I am the only one posting at the moment. I am spoiled by our synchronous web tools, I want immediate feedback. So, to compensate I am doing what i always do, starting a new thread! :) what an ego. Our organization brought this guy in a few years back. He was brought in by the president as a 'corporate consultant' His role was to teach us all how to work and play nice together, in the new world of 'continuing ongoing renewal' (CORE) and Total Quality Mangagement' (TQM) etc.. Our vp is still listening to this guy 5 years later! I went to a couple of his sessions as they were called. Something seemed oddly familiar. Much later I found out he was an EST training for years in the 70's and 80's. He had managed to convert all that stuff in to a very lucrative business, $150 an hour and we got a discount rate! His spiel was a hodgepodge of est, eastern mysticism, salesmanship and modern business comm type theories, all rolled up into one. Reminded me of the M hype, especially the way many of the management and wannabees got glassy eyed and started spewing his slogans, like 'trust the process' Anyone else had any experience with this phenomenon? I guess M did me a favor, I didn't get hooked/ first I felt superior cause I had a better solution, later I saw it all for what it was. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Jun 05, 1998 at 23:38:17 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: Selena Subject: corporate gooroo Message: Selena, Are we in real time? Are you talking about Anthony Robbins? Our company is BIG into him. He is a corporate guru, too. VP Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Jun 06, 1998 at 00:23:54 (EST)
From: Peter Email: None To: Selena Subject: corporate gooroo Message: There's scads of those gooroos out there. My organization brings in at least 3 or 4 new ones each year. I don't think the bosses ever have any intention of signing on with one particular program, it's just kind of a shotgun approach hoping that somewhere in all that goo is one good idea. If I've heard one good idea yet, I can't remember it right now, but several of the real hucksters I remember vividly. One guy wanted us to breathe out of one nostril only (hold the other nostril closed) for 15 minutes to prepare us for certain kinds of tasks, said it would stimulate that side (or the opposite side?) of our brains. Only problem is, not very far inside your face there's a hole between the two nostrils and all the air goes to the same place no matter which nostril it came through. But NO MATTER WHAT you say, there's SOMEONE who will believe it. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Jun 06, 1998 at 12:20:53 (EST)
From: david f. Email: None To: Selena Subject: corporate gooroo Message: Yes, it really doesn't matter if it's selling weapons or selling spirituality and 'freedom,' the underlying greed can be the same, and this is what I think we need to pay attention to. It's intersting the great lenghts that corporate culture goes to to put a big happy face on screwing over their workers and getting them to work harder. I 've heard of this at other places--'poetry and soul in the workplace,' etc. The underlying idea isn't bad, but what's the motivation? At my workplace, we have meetings all the time where a few of the managers spout off about 'team work' and 'customer service,' and so on, but they are the ones that don't listen to their workers, are demening and insulting, and do a bunch of posturing to make themselves look good. But after all, isn't 'looking good' what its all about in our culture. Hey, BM looks pretty good to some people, sort of like that korean real estate guy on the late night infomercials. best wishes, david f. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Jun 06, 1998 at 13:51:21 (EST)
From: carol Email: None To: Selena Subject: corporate gooroo Message: When I went to a program in San Diego in about '94 I went to eat with an old premie friend who was always involved in the organization-former Community Director, and the people who were with him were also former service people in the 'mission'. THey were talking and joking and I figured out that two or three of them had worked as corporate motivational trainors post ashram break-up! (I was annoyed about how little content there was in the conversations that evening. It all seemed so silly and superficial. In a moment of seriousness I urged my friend to stay in contact with people we both knew who loved him. I don't think he did, at least not with me!) carol Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Jun 06, 1998 at 14:35:48 (EST)
From: Selena Email: None To: everyone Subject: corporate gooroo Message: No, VP, we aren't in real time but it sounds like there are a lot of these types making a profit from a spin-off of the spiritual trips from the last few decades. I guess if an EST trainer can do it, why not a premie? What a scam! I thought only our org was that naiive. It is funny in a way but it's also kind of harmful. Our upper management gets to feel like they are doing something when all they are doing is being entertained while the rest of us do the work. AND when we 'complain' or we are 'negative' they have new slogans and jargon to spout at us. Sure seems familiar. The president who unleased this guy on us bailed out this year. Big surprise. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Jun 06, 1998 at 22:08:45 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: Selena Subject: corporate gooroo Message: The president who unleased this guy on us bailed out this year. Big surprise. Yeah, and guess where he ended up? Whoopee! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Jun 06, 1998 at 23:41:36 (EST)
From: Selena Email: None To: Katie Subject: corporate gooroo Message: You are serious!! oh my god I know you are!! I am going to have to email you. We are off to a movie but I will send you mail ASAP. sheesh, Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Jun 05, 1998 at 18:35:56 (EST)
From: Judex Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Sad thing happened Message: I have decided to share with you what happened yesterday, after reading Robyn and others posts about feelings and childhood. BTW, Robyn I have typed your name Robin too. I like Robin. Anyway, ok my daughter and I were watching TV last night and a news story came on that two girls had been killed by a truck running into a house in our area. Then it said it was ironic because the girls were visiting neighbours to say goodbye, as their family was moving to a certain state the next day. We both sort of went, mm, because a girl my daughter has become really close to this year in high school was moving to this state soon. Through a series of events we learned it was my daughter's friend. Her sister was critically injured. Think of this, they were inside the house visiting and a truck ran right into the house. We spent yesterday afternoon crying. They even showed a shot of the younger sister (11) lying in shock on a stretcher. Just a little blond girl, completely out of her body, her 13 yo sister dead. I feel sad now. I didn't know this girl, only though my daughter's little descriptions and her fondness of her. But when I heard the story I started crying. A part of me knew it was her while my head was still going; well , it might be someone else. I even wondered if M was showing his wrath, hurting someone close to my daughter in a bizarre accident, so unlikely. That is the illogical fear I have of leaving M and posting on this Forum. That's not the point of this though, the point is the death of innocence, of childhood, and death itself, real death. And 'accidents' and what is life? When I 'felt', I felt this little girl's spirit, not suffering. I had to communicate to my daughter in a way that would help her. She said 'what will I do?' and I said she just had to accept it has happened, that's all. Just wanted to share with you guys about it. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Jun 05, 1998 at 19:59:03 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: Judex Subject: Sad thing happened Message: Dear Judex - I hope that you and your daughter are all right. It is really hard when you are a kid and someone your own age dies suddenly. I remember when I was 12 - a boy in my class at school was killed when he was hit by a car while riding a bike. The teacher announced it to the class the next day and it was so weird. The boy had been there the day before and then he was gone forever. I had already experienced the death of my grandfather and great-grandmother, but the death of someone my own age was really different - sadder and more frightening.You just don't expect things like that to happen when you are a kid. It is very hard to comprehend. And you are right, that in a way it is at least part of the end of innocence, because several other people that that I knew died during my teenage years (drugs, suicide, alcohol, murder), and I never felt that same way. The first time it happened I really realized that people that were my age COULD die, and although it was always sad, it was never such a shock again. I (of course) do not know what happens after people die, and I really don't have any formed beliefs on the subject (such as 'they go to heaven, etc.'. I think that their consciousness just turns into energy - maybe after hanging around for a little while. Anyway, I know it's a hard thing to go through, and I know you and your daughter are probably feeling very sad. You are right about acceptance of what happened (I think that was a good thing to tell her), but it's just gonna be sad for a while too, I think. Fondly, Katie P.S. I have to tell you your thought that M might have been 'showing his wrath' made me really angry - not at you, of course - but whoever put the possibility of that idea in your head - I am not sure if this was M himself, or some of the premies. What a thing to have to think at a time like this! It's awful. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Jun 05, 1998 at 20:29:35 (EST)
From: Judex Email: None To: Katie Subject: Sad thing happened Message: Thanks Katie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Jun 05, 1998 at 21:22:32 (EST)
From: Selena Email: None To: Judex Subject: Sad thing happened Message: Hi Judex I know how you feel. It's hard when tragedy strickes close to home somehow. I just wanted to add to what Katie said about feeling angry at the kind of progamming so many of us had, that would lead us to think about things like 'the wrath of M' It's the flip side of the way prmies always say something good had happened 'by gooroo M's grace'/ I know because I have been there and heard it over and over Don't be concerned, you aren't bringing on any 'bad karma' by not being a zombie premie. It's just old social conditioning, nothing more. I have it too. and, like Katie, it makes me more than a little ticked off. Just remember that nothing happens or doesn't happen because of M, except endless trips to convention centers. He's just some guy in the God business and we were impressionable for various reasons. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Jun 05, 1998 at 21:35:04 (EST)
From: bb Email: None To: Judex Subject: Sad thing happened Message: You handled that with your daughter real well. Some told me that when you are born, you cry and everyone else is happy. And when you go, everyone cries but YOU are happy. Sounds right somehow. Thats a rough situation for all involved to deal with. Even the driver must have sobered up and been horrified. The parents are ruined. How long does it take to get a forward momentum going again after that? It's like the situation with Bobby, a reminder to live fully now. It does take a while for the rawat programming to fade. I was plagued with thoughts also. Lately I think Jim is rawat, just kidding. I heard that with kids and death, you should check in with her about it for a while because we adults go silent quick but the kids need more talk. Thats the reccomendation of those that deal with those school killings. goodnight Judex Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Jun 05, 1998 at 22:00:02 (EST)
From: bftb Email: None To: Judex Subject: Sad thing happened Message: FWIW: If you ever have a scary 'M's wrath' thought again,just realize this: If M is really who some think he is(and what your lingering conditioning whispers to you that he may be) then he's more then likely above wrath.Don't sweat it. And on the other hand;if he's not who some think he is then there's not much he can do wrathwise anyway. :-) It's a win win situation.No worries. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Jun 05, 1998 at 22:15:37 (EST)
From: Sir David Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: Judex Subject: Sad thing happened Message: I think the best thing we can do for a child who has lost a friend is to share the sadness with them, which is what you're doing. When my sister died, her husband was obviously grief stricken and we both found great comfort in knowing and understanding and sharing one another's grief. Sometimes we would just cry together on the phone and that seemed the best and most helpful thing for both of us. In time, perhaps your daughter's friend's family and your family will be able to help and support each other. I know that when people grieve for the same person, they are inexticably linked and a close bond can develope. Maharaji is not God and he has no power over your life or the people in it. I think it's just as important not to demonise Maharaji as it is to not to exalt him. He's just an ordinary guy in the guru business. He's not a demon and he has no evil powers. In fact, he's not evil. He is ignorant of some of the effects he's had on people but by and large I would just say he's careless and lacking understanding of people. He is nothing to fear. And as a person he's your average guru type. He wouldn't want any harm to befall people. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Jun 05, 1998 at 23:32:58 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: Judex Subject: Guru Omnipotent?? Message: Judex, First of all I want to tell you how very sorry I am to hear about your daughter's friend. I think bb gave you some really good advice. Talk to your daughter and let her express how she feels. This is kind of off topic, but I just finished watching an introductory video for the purpose of writing a review for the site. I was taking notes and a friend of mine was with me watching, too. We were talking about how very pure and simple the message in the introductory message was. Enjoy life. Know yourself. You only get one life, etc. Something that he did say that was true was that we all have periods of happiness and then sadness. If you can let your daughter know that she will get through this into happier times ahead, that is a good start. Anyway, we talked about how it was a shame that the message is distorted when you actually get involved in the programming further. The simple messages are lost in favor of complicating things with devotion, service, running around to programs, giving your time and energy, etc. I think that your comment above about the possibility of M putting wrath onto someone is just more proof of that distortion of any good that M might possibly be trying to deliver. Since we are talking about death here tonight, I wanted to tell you a little of what M says about death. In this video, M says that he doesn't know what happens after you die. He admits this. He says very clearly that he doesn't know if reincarnation exists or not. I don't know how someone who is God (or an incarnation of God on the earth) could control any events in our lives if he doesn't even KNOW what the hell happens to us after we die!!! You are either omnipotent as a God or you aren't. How does M know you are posting if he doesn't know what happens to you after you die? In this video, M presents himself as a regular guy, IMO. (inadvertently, I'm sure) So PLEASE don't worry about that. If M wanted to display wrath, the earth would have opened up and swallowed several of us by now-it's true! (Jim are you out there?? snicker) I am thinking of you, Judex. Hope you both can grieve normally and then move on into happier times, VP P.S. If it makes you feel any better, in this video M says that babies don't drive cars, or surf the internet (knowing laughter from the premies in the audience) but that they still know how to enjoy. Then in the next statement he says he is not judging these things that we do. (He basically gives us all permission to enjoy the internet ;-)Hahahahahahahaha) I don't want you to think that I am saying we should live by or believe these quotes from M. I am not. I am just trying to show you some of the contradictions in his statements and logic. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Jun 06, 1998 at 10:10:22 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs To: Judex Subject: Sad thing happened Message: Dear Judex, Just in town and checking in and am so sorry to hear your sad news. One of my best friends' son died, drowned in a creek near her house, 3 days after she moved there. That was in 1990 and I still think of him every day. Death can be sweet, at the end of a full life, or a gift at the end of a hard illness but when death strikes suddenly unaccepted and especially to a child it tears your heart out. But as you told your daughter life does continue and in time we must get back into it. My thoughts are with you and your daughter. Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Jun 06, 1998 at 14:15:21 (EST)
From: carol Email: None To: Robyn Subject: Sad thing happened Message: Judex and all, Two years ago, my oldest son lost a good friend of his and was with him when he died, trying to save him. It was a very heavy experience. They had been hiking in the Columbia River gorge that has many trail and streams and waterfalls. They were with one other friend, too, and were going rock-hopping up a stream instead of on the trail which was up a steep slope above them. It was a beatiful sunny day. They were eating berries and enjoying themselves immensely. Many of the rocks were actually large boulders. They had sat in the same place for probably 100 years. Well, there had been flooding many places in the NW the previous winter and apparently in the stream beds as well, and the rocks were not as stable as they appeared. My son had just been on the same boulder and moved ahead across the stream and looked back at his friend just in time to see he was falling backward off that boulder and the boulder rolled over, crushing him, and then off. My son rushed to try to help and did mouth to mouth for almost 2 hours hoping to save him, while their other friend ran to get help. In reality, he had most likely died instantly. It helped my son to have people to talk to, and especially to take part in the memorial. He spoke and played music there. He said that if he himself could pick a day in which to die, it would be one like the day they had experienced. (I'm am very grateful that it was not his day!But I am very sympathetic to anyone that loses their loved ones!) carol Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Jun 06, 1998 at 16:24:01 (EST)
From: Judex Email: None To: carol Subject: Sad thing happened Message: Dear Carol Your son sounds like the best friend anyone could have. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Jun 07, 1998 at 03:29:47 (EST)
From: carol Email: None To: Judex Subject: Sad thing happened Message: He is a wonderful person and I look forward to growing old beside him. When I'm 83 he'll be 65! carol Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Jun 05, 1998 at 16:51:21 (EST)
From: Mirabai Email: None To: Robin Subject: Mysteries continued Message: Hi Robyn, my mis spelling was maybe a subconcious intuition of how it is really spelt! When I referred to my childhood innocence, this certainly did not imply that I was able to maintain this innocence. Actually until I turned 20, my memories were a blank. Many memories came flooding back at this stage,both the traumatic ones and the more enlightened ones. I even remembered experiencing my whole conciousness kind of undergoing a major sinking and becoming uncouncious because what was happening in my childhood was too painful and unacceptable to my mind and emotions. I can relate to what you say about raw emotions. I've spent many years going through such things. Learning to surrender and be open to deep feelings has been a major part of my journey. It was a slow and difficult process,but coming out and being totally honest has been very rewarding. For me meditation always brought me closer to everything within,both negative and positive. From how I view things, I can well understand why people who are genuine and sincerely looking for that which is real need some kind of support from others as it can be a pretty scary path to tread. Realizing that there are some people that one can truly trust is a very important part of ones learning. In regard to my birthday, I turned 34 on 24th May,so my sun is just 3 degrees gemini. I don't know if you know much about astrology,but I have quite a few planets in taurus. I'm your age spelt backwards! When exactly was your birthday,I didn't check the date? I always think of Bob Dylan on my birthday as we share the same one. bye for now, take care Mirabai Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Jun 05, 1998 at 19:56:41 (EST)
From: Keith and Mirabai Email: None To: everyone Subject: Off for a few days Message: We are going away for a few days.... a magical mystery tour is coming to take us away... no, no....just visiting relatives. So Mirabai and I shall try and catch up with the posts when we return. Don't talk about us behind our backs! See you all soon! Keith and Mirabai. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Jun 06, 1998 at 10:18:10 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs To: Mirabai Subject: the deeper meaning Message: Dear Mirabai, I hope you didn't think I was being harsh when I joked about your writing my name wrong as a payback. My birthday is 6/2/55, I am now 43. I was just playing. I was not happy to hear about your intense childhood but it makes me feel we share something there and that we have both put a lot into opening ourselves to our deep feelings. It is hard but joyful also and I feel that those around me, friends and family who can not/do not even see this pursuit as a possibility, are really missing getting the most out of this life but then that's how those Jehovah's Wintesses feel about me too, I guess. Nice talking with you Mirabai, Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Jun 06, 1998 at 16:42:24 (EST)
From: Judex Email: None To: Robyn Subject: the deeper meaning Message: Dear Robyn may I join in here? I did my recovery from marijhuana addiction in a 12 step program. I had tried for 4 years on my own/ with drug & alcohol counselling but would always relapse and go on binges, even after up to a year of being off the stuff. I just wanted to say that in those groups the recovery program is based on belief in a 'higher power', something greater than yourself (whatever your concept is) because addicts suffer from extreme selfishness. That is why the New Age stuff is really bad for them because it encourages 'I am the centre of the universe'. Anway, someone said to me there that most normal people go on a search for meaning at some stage in their life, but addicts are people who have to, that's the only difference. People who are addicted to whatever, incuding fundamentalist religions cannot afford to ask any questions. Not only is there denial but I believe a lot of fear tied up in there. There are roles people play in dysfunctional families which 'enables' the others to keep their roles intact. You may be the one who owns all the 'emotions' (to them). Just wanted to say that most people don't really have as much of a say in how they are running their lives as they would like to think, unless something happens that makes them start looking for answers. You are the fortunate one in that group, it seems to me. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Jun 06, 1998 at 22:46:07 (EST)
From: Gerry Email: None To: Judex Subject: the deeper meaning Message: Dear Judex, You really, really need to read The Guru Papers Pronto. Like first thing. Numero uno on your reading list, IMHO. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Jun 07, 1998 at 10:18:11 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: Gerry and Judex Subject: 12 Steps & Guru Papers Message: I think (but am not sure) that what Gerry is talking about in the message above is that there is a chapter critiquing 12-step groups in the Guru Papers. My mom is an alcoholic who got sober (for the first time) when I was 16, and ever since then our family has been immersed in the 12-step philosophy (it's sort of like my religious background). I believed implicitly in all the things about that 'no one can get sober without going to AA and working the 12 Steps'. It was amazing for me to read the 12-Step chapter in the Guru Papers. I know there are other books that criticize AA, but this was the first one I'd ever seen, and it really challenged my sense of what was real. In fact, it was really good for me, because I always disliked going to AlAnon, and ACOA, but felt really guilty about it! BUT, one caveat. I think everyone who is successfully working a 12-step program should take the thoughts in the Guru Papers with a grain of salt. For instance, my mom has been sober for 13 years and she feels that she maintains sobriety by going to AA - that is fine with me. My sister has been very much helped - more than any therapy that she ever had - by her ACOA group (she has a great sponsor, which helps). I do think that the 12-step programs help people a lot - it's just the 'this is the ONLY way' message that I don't like. P.S. Gerry, if I misinterpreted your message to Jude, I am sorry. It's an interesting subject though. Actually I read the second half of the Guru Papers first because I wanted to read that chapter so much. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Jun 07, 1998 at 11:58:53 (EST)
From: Gerry Email: None To: Katie Subject: 12 Steps & Guru Papers Message: Actually Katie, you've done a beautiful job. I wasn't up to the task just then, so thanks. Kramer and Alstad aren't saying people would be better off without the twelve step program, as people must do what they need in order to survive. Rather, their main point is this type of 'help' in controlling drinking which is accomplished by generating self mistrust ('surrender to a higher source', and 'you can't make it without us') is essentially authoritarian and incompatible with the evolutionary model. In other words, it is part of the same old manipulative thinking which has brought us as a civilization to the precarious place we are in today. The type of thinking which has created the 'problem' is not the level of thinking which will create solutions and help ensure survival of the human species. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Jun 07, 1998 at 18:55:21 (EST)
From: Judex Email: None To: Gerry Subject: 12 Steps & Guru Papers Message: Cant wait to read it! I haven't been able to get it in local bookshops. I had a huge 'fall from grace' out of a 12 step program. The trouble is, I agree, you suspend your own individuality. You live in a small world with others who are similar. All you ever talk about is then and now. It's dark. But it took a long time for me to accept I can never use drugs or drink 'normally' again. I had a few sips of wine/champagne twice in the past two years. Both times I felt terrible, it affected me really fast and I had a sudden urge to 'get out of it' . Alcohol wasn't even my drug of choice. It's a bad scene, but once you accept it you're ok. That's what I found. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 17:43:44 (EST)
From: Stephen Harris Email: mulcyber@pacbell.net To: Gerry Subject: 12 Steps & Guru Papers Message: The prime characteristic of alcoholics and addicts is that they are grandiose. They tend to make intellectual pronouncements which sadly are not grounded in reality. The reason people come to AA is because they couldn't do it themselves. They do need help and that is what they are seeking. The addicts who come to AA think just like you do, and that is what needs to be changed. People already think the way you suggest; 'I can do it myself' They have tried and usually as a last resort try AA. It is estimated that about 90% of society is addicted to either substance or process abuse. The people who find themself on this webpage are typically religious or romance addicts. And there is a strong correlation between alcoholics and ACOA's and people who join cults. People get used to escaping reality early in life. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 18:27:50 (EST)
From: Gerry Email: None To: Stephen Harris Subject: 12 Steps & Guru Papers Message: The prime characteristic of alcoholics and addicts is that they are grandiose. They tend to make intellectual pronouncements which sadly are not grounded in reality. Oh really Doctor Harris, have you made a study of alcoholics and have even a shred of evidence to back up this incredible statement? The reason people come to AA is because they couldn't do it themselves. They do need help and that is what they are seeking. The addicts who come to AA think just like you do, and that is what needs to be changed. Oh and Doctor, you also read minds? You not only know how I think, but also how all alcoholics think (who of course, all think alike) People already think the way you suggest; 'I can do it myself' Just where did I suggest that? They have tried and usually as a last resort try AA. Maybe, maybe not. Are you some apologist for AA? It is estimated that about 90% of society is addicted to either substance or process abuse. Where the fuck did you get this ridiculous figure? The people who find themself on this webpage are typically religious or romance addicts. Thank you, Doctor for that wonderfully keen insight into the people on this website. I'm sure they all appreciate your expertise as much as I do. And there is a strong correlation between alcoholics and ACOA's and people who join cults. People get used to escaping reality early in life. You've completely discredited yourself so why should I believe this ridiculous statement, either. This is the stupidest post I have read on this forum yet! YOU, SIR, ARE AN ARROGANT AND POMPOUS ASS! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 19:13:42 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Stephen Harris Subject: 12 Steps & Guru Papers Message: Stephen, It is estimated that about 90% of society is addicted to either substance or process abuse. The people who find themself on this webpage are typically religious or romance addicts. Who estimated that? Is that the end of the story? I think there's some truth in terms of dependencies to some extent but I think this statement can only make sense with a serious dilution of the common meaning of 'addiction'. I think that's unfair and hate to see it done. What I'm talking about is the less discriminate and over-broad application of a highly charged word. It's like calling abortion 'murder'. Or the government a 'cult'. They're oversensationalized descriptions. It really sounds as if you're just spouting the AA party line. I don't fault you for that as much as Gerry did. Indeed I think there are a lot more 'pompous asses' who've posted here that you don't even come close to. (Sorry, that came out as the ultimate left-handed compliment. I really didn't mean it to.) But I DO think that you've got to really consider your AA or ACOA teachings more critically. I once got into a long argument with a 'reformed' pot smoker who was trying to convince me that regular pot smoking amounts to an 'addiction'. I read the book she gave me and realized, as I do with a lot of spiritual teachings, that it was simply laying out a program with no room for criticism or feedback. I didn't buy the premises and there was no one to talk them over with. Classic 'authoritarianism'. Didn't like it. Hey, welcome to the forum! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 19:44:38 (EST)
From: Gerry Email: None To: Jim Subject: Double Standard Message: Jim, This guy comes in and makes these incredible statements with no evidence presented and insults the hell out of everybody (well I guess you aren't in the 90%) and you say ''welcome to the Forum?'' I don't get it. Maybe critical thinking stardards only apply to what premies and ''New Agers'' say. (Where do you catagorize me, BTW?) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 20:08:22 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Gerry Subject: Double Standard Message: Gerry, My facetiousness must have passed you by. Sorry. I was saying 'welcome' after saying that I thought he, too, was operating on a set of vague and unchallenged (and likely indefensible) assumptions AND in light of your own post to him. You? I don't know. A little bit of this and a little bit of that, maybe? What do you think? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 20:15:13 (EST)
From: Gerry Email: None To: Jim Subject: Double Standard Message: Jim, I do get worked up and I'm told I'm overly sensitive and I guess that makes me reactive. A little bit of this and a little bit of that, maybe? Sound as good as anything, I guess. Maybe it's my Gemini nature :{) (smiley face with a moustache) Maybe I was a little tough on the beaver. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 23:21:05 (EST)
From: Stephen Harris Email: mulcyber@pacbell.net To: Jim Subject: 12 Steps & Guru Papers Message: Anne Wilson Schaef. Jeff Diamond I think is another. If you think my figure is wrong, what do you think the correct % is? This is my surmise: I don't think you have read anything on this topic to base your opinion on. I think you objected because if true, it is very unpleasant news. Not because my % is wrong. As for addiction. Right now, I am addicted to sugar. I make sure I have sugar, cookies or whatever every day. I feel uncomfortable without it. I have gone to the 7-11 at 3am to get candy or cookies. Same thing with pot. If you smoke every day, feel uncomfortable without it, take risks to obtain it, and spend money better used for something else it is called an addiction. Does bad habit sound better. I have been in and out of cults for 25 years. Starting with Gumaraji when he was 13. I got in AA 11 years ago when I was close to dying. I hardly ever go to a meeting anymore. Speaking from experience the emphasis in a cult is money. AA can be free or just very cheap. Trying to call AA a cult is the spastic imagination of goofball intellectuals who are themselves victims of addictive and cultish mentalities, their own. I hope to dispel the illusion that I am pompous. Jim, you seem more reasonable than that braindead vomiter. Thanks for the welcome to the NG. Actually I'm looking for solutions to what to do when you don't drink, drug, or attend meetings of various spiritual flavors. Regards, Stephen Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Jun 05, 1998 at 13:03:16 (EST)
From: david f. Email: dkfreed@whidbey.com To: Everyone Subject: Castro Astro Message: Is there anyone out there who, like me, lived at the famous Castro Astro renegade premie house in S.F. Calif?? just wonder, david f. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Jun 06, 1998 at 07:18:16 (EST)
From: astro dome Email: None To: david f. Subject: Castro Astro Message: Was that on Castro street? If so, that must have been wild because that is a world famous wild street. And was that the ashram that had that very strict and dogmatic instructor? She was very adament about following m the way he demanded. JM can remember the programming I'm sure. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Jun 06, 1998 at 12:27:44 (EST)
From: Gerry Email: None To: david f. Subject: Castro Astro Message: Hi David, I spent about six weeks there around May of 1973. Slept on the top floor where the musical equipment was kept. I think it was the most fun I had in the whole thing, very loose and funky, such a contrast to the uptight Pittsburg ashram scene I split from. Do you happen to know Ed Burke from San Fransisco? He'd be about 57 now. We were close friends and I often think about him. ED are you out there? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Jun 06, 1998 at 16:35:12 (EST)
From: david Email: dkfreed@whidbey.com To: Gerry Subject: Castro Astro Message: Yes, the rock band on the third floor--I'm glad you reminded me We definitely didn't fit the ashram mould at all, and were always catching crap from others about our un-devoted life-styles. We were, however, pretty tame by Castro Street standards (this was not a gay premie house, though we had people of all sexual orientations living there), but generally had a good time. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Jun 07, 1998 at 20:02:17 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: david Subject: Castro Astro Message: David, I think in '73 the San Francisco ashram was actually in a big Victorian in the Haight, I think on Masonic. I went through SF about 73 and remember going to satsang there. When I got transferred to SF in 1980, there wasn't any premie house in the Castro disctrict, although there remained a few in the Haight. Plus, by then there were ashrams on both sides of the Bay, and the satsang hall was in Forest Hill. By the way, the Castro District is no longer the 'wild' place it used to be. It's mostly a tourist attraction, mobbed by tourists on the weekends come to see the gay capitol of the world, and is otherwise full of yuppie boutiques and million-dollar homes. The 'wild' area in SF is now SOMA. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Jun 05, 1998 at 12:36:15 (EST)
From: Mark Email: Apple 4256@aol.com To: Everyone Subject: Beyond Belief Message: With the conjunction of Maharaji's LA program, and a 50 th birthday party for my sister- in- law , I had the chance to have a series of direct, honest , and high intensity encounters with quite a few friends who had just gotten the gas tank filled up at a program the day before. There were as many points of view on M as there were people. But if there was one clear understanding I got from it all, it was that right, wrong,good or bad ,the M phenonenon is a belief system. Each quote that follows is a comment from a current premie. 'I've been with him alone. He's the real deal. You know when you pick on him, it's like someone attacking my wife.A lot of these people here are intelligent good people and your friends, and you're insulting them. Of course this is not about meditation techniques, it never has been. M's mistress is a minor player in all this.Its about devotion- and it works for me, and a lot of the people here.'-- -- i know. it worked for me too; until it didn't. there is a mountain nearby that has a 'sleeping woman' in it.ie, if somebody tilts their head at this angle at this time of day ( and someone has told you to look for it) you can experience what might be construed as a sleeping woman.That's what this whole M phenomenon is to me. A construct, a collage of Hindu devotional patter, a litany of various claims ( spiritual lineage, cosmic power, this is the true path, 'I am the master) , human longing for emotional belonging,recognition, & certainty, the genuine human desire to get high and be free.IF you are willing to bend down and look at M with the sun behind him in this particular way, he CAN become your living god. AND if you do accept and invigorate that belief with regular immersions into this 'way' he will get stronger and stronger in it. NO DOUBT about it. and as you continue to invest your own magic into it, it will get more and more powerful. And M will happily and helpfully be there to act 'real' for you ( anyone who has ever basked in the glow of the 'satsang' or any public attention/philosopher chair knows how pleasurable that is ) because its good for him to play god.This is by no means unique to M. There are quite a few folks in the living God business and some of them have powers M doesn't have ( including the ability to share personally, love and compassion with 'followers' ) My stating publically from a genuine heartfelt point of view,this is a devotional cult, is not an insult. It's like seeing all your friends blowing dope every time you see them. Eventually you realize you don't want to. So you stop,but don't 'judge' them. Then eventually for truth's sake, you call a spade a spade.Otherwise you're enabling them. Then you realize that you enjoyed dope until you felt it was limiting you,so you get on with you life, and let your head clear.And then you EXPERIENCE how limiting it all was.unfortunately you can't experience that until you exit the dope/master thing. . . 'mark, I feel that you're right on. BUT WHAT IF YOU'RE WRONG??' Wow !OK. let's look at this one.Certainty. Fear. Heaven and hell. Getting kicked out of the universe. I literally went through waves and force fields as I unravelled from my own potent brand of self-delusionary mumbo-jumbo. Part of that was definitely that M was this poor Jewish boy's Jesus, take me through the light to heaven, giver of the grace, my own personal Johnnie Cochran for an angry and judgemental God. Did he create that in me? NO. Did he and does he continue to create the enviornment that that sort of thinking florishes in? OF COURSE. I HAVE NEVER FELT BETTER IN OR ABOUT MYSELF since leaving M's world, and that feeling, is in the final analysis,is my true self and guide. So from my 3 year personal experience, you don't die when you leave- you just get certain crucial aspects of yourself back. And while completely 'grokking' the life insurance angle, I found that cashing in the policy and investing it in myself has paid enormous dividends. 'M's gonna know you posted on the internet' This one was like, dad's gonna be angry. Well, if the guru is all knowing he already knew.If we're all one, then this is just one tiny part of the ONE'S conversation with inself.If the guru is sincere, or doesn't have a clue, maybe stuff like this can help 'THE PERFECT INFINITE MIRROR' take a look at himself.Or he's the real deal, & he'll get pissed and send me to . . .Anyway, I love a lot of premies ( and about 50 % of them look in here - on the QT, of course ) from time to time) and this is my highest truth on our common pursuit . . . 'well mark, they always say that if you meet the Buddha on the road, Kill him.' this guy is a collection of one liners, but this one is right on. Let's say that for some, a frothing devotional enviornment is the best one to summon feelings and longings for 'the All'. So professional Buddha's exist in all religious walks of life( even M said everyone should start with A religion- JUST NOT DIE WITH ONE ) to spark the higher calling. After they kickstart you , you SHOULD GET GOING. If M is a mirror, fine, but there are other mirrors, and be careful that the mirror doesn't turn into a picture frame- of the GURU!If it does , it might be time to . . . break the mirror . . .thank the Buddha ( once sincerely will do, not the rest of your life) ,& then kill him 'you should have been at the program. whenever we all get together , it's the highest experience of the planet. We're on the edge of Love itself.' been there . done that. Gotta believe in it all for it to work. The last three programs i went to after 'popping' out of the belief system were actually quite painful at times, and definitely more pain than pleasure.I love hearing about truth and when M would speak about the glory of what I feel truly is, it was magnificent. However, when he would invariably speak about M's glory,at great length in his unique well honed 3rd person way, I couldn't feel more uncomfortable. It was definitely oriented around the Guru, not the student. Soak me up, so you can truly Be.Actually , I went to Della Reese's Jesus Church in LA on Sunday, and I bet you most inattendance felt like they'd been touched by an angel. And as I believe, they had. If they believed in it.Same for premies. I'm just at the point now of seeing this planet populated by 1000's of belief systems ( or meme's ) that enable us , and also seriously limit us. M's system shows the best and worst of a belief system. However, I just feel at this stage there is a species opportunity to slip out of this-self limitation conspiracy, that M is both a powerful and cartoonish example of. 'what do you mean 'knowledge lite' . It's a very powerful experience' Absolutely.I'm not questioning or doubting that. however, knowledge lite is a clear political retrenchment by our Clintonian guru. A centrist policy of 'try to give an hour a day' and I'm just a helpful guy , is clearly a full swing from 'always remember the holy name, you can't fit knowledege into your life, . etc., etc . . .'Those of us from the 70's ALL recieved the de rigeur lobotomies that we either secretly fondly remember, still proudly burnish,or have chosen with selective memory to forget.By Maharaji grace EVERYTHING happened. Now that approach ( others are doing the indian master thing with much greater success)doesn't keep up the campaign contributions, so that level has been exorcised except for the private fundraiser, pre-knowledge selections, and 'true believer' or residence events.However, 'Knowledge Lite ' in my opinion, in a new sort of first level initiation, with' heavy knowledge' waiting, when the belief system has yeasted properly, in the wings. gotta go make some money. I'll continue with my RANT, and the partygoers positions, at next post. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Jun 05, 1998 at 13:49:37 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Mark Subject: Beyond Belief Message: Dear Mark, I just had to tell you that I went to a BM festival, never remember what they were called, holi, etc. Anyway it was held in the summer at a college that was not in session in Rhode Island. The college property was adjacent to Sleeping Giant State Park. I didn't expect to be impressed but I was. From the college this cluster of 3 small mountains did indeed look like a sleeping giant. One inverted bowl shaped Mt. for the head another lower longer one for the belly and then another that was longer still and lowere than the belly and flat on top for the legs, only thing missing were arms and feet. It was great! Your post was good and I don't want to take away from it with this 1st paragraph. I just hope you have people you are close to that aren't premies also. Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Jun 05, 1998 at 15:41:48 (EST)
From: mark Email: non-premie friends To: Robyn Subject: Beyond Belief Message: yeah 2 bright lovely college aged kids & a beautiful and fearless wife. and as far as only premie friends i do live here in the emerald city ( malibu suburbs) so premies are part of the package BUT this is Socal for god's sakes so really as long as i tell them where i'm at / its all ok w/me & them i think just a shorter christmas card list. obviously, there have been a few mortalities and a few 'church lady' types but also like JW a few like me who have or are in the process of being belched out of the belly of the whale. others have no idea i've shifted allegiances on them, so its funny seeing the change in them when they find i've burnt 'my draft card' Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Jun 05, 1998 at 15:58:21 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: mark Subject: Beyond Belief Message: Dear Mark, Wonderful! I have one daughter out of college for 1 year although she started a year early and one just 1 year away from going to college, 1 year early. It is how they can get away from mom in an honorable way and still keep their place in my good graces. :) Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Jun 05, 1998 at 14:02:58 (EST)
From: carol Email: None To: Mark Subject: Beyond Belief Message: Mark, I really appreciate your eloquence and clarity of expression about what I also am feeling, but am not as good as saying. Looking forward to your continuence. I just watched the Long Beach video from last Dec. and while there were moments in which I enjoyed myself, in which M reminded us about the experience being our own, he then goes on to say things that indicate that HE owns it and is contradicting himself, and I feel grateful for my realization that he is not a necessary conduit for the experience of which he speaks so highly. carol Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Jun 05, 1998 at 14:23:05 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Mark Subject: Beyond Belief Message: Mark, That was a pleasure to read. Thanks. Your point about false facial recognition was excellent. Take a look at Carl Sagan's treatment of that human tendency in his last book, 'The Demon-Haunted World' (I think that's what it's clled and I'm too lazy to go find it.) That's exactly how it is/was. Exactly. In fact, do you mind if I use that metaphor and tell people that I made it up myself? Always looking to improve my portfolio. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Jun 05, 1998 at 14:58:22 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Mark Subject: Beyond Belief Message: Hi Mark, Can't say I envy you having to try to talk rationally to a bunch of post-program premies who are in various states of denial. Very interesting comments, and they sound like many I have heard over the years, with the exception of the comment about the mistress. You also said: IF you are willing to bend down and look at M with the sun behind him in this particular way, he CAN become your living god. AND if you do accept and invigorate that belief with regular immersions into this 'way' he will get stronger and stronger in it. NO DOUBT about it. and as you continue to invest your own magic into it, it will get more and more powerful. I fully agree that if you want to believe in BM enough and contort yourself to look at him in the right (i.e. programmed) way, he CAN be your living god. I mean, people make gods out off all kinds of things and firmly believe in them. But I'm not so sure about some sort of unlimited growth and power that happens if you do that. I think there is a definite limit, perhaps different from person to person. It certainly was for me. Like you said, at one point it stopped. And I think it has stopped for most premies who have been involved for any length of time. And I think that even premies who continue some enthusiasm for BM usually plateaued years ago, and aren't really having the greatly pleasurable and satisfying experience they have learned to say they have, partly in an attempt to convince themselves they are really having it. Then what BM is truly becomes a religion (or as you say, a belief system), with a mixture of revival (program) highs, nostalgia for the strong and exciting 'high' one had at the beginning or at certain earlier, more innocent times, a certain social, group-feeling of belonging and the group pressure that goes along with that, and a strong catholic/jewish fear of missing out on the messiah of out time if one stops believing. BM used to really rant about that to scare the shit out of us about this. I don't know if he still does, but premies from the 70s, who seem to be the bulk of the people still into BM, are already well indoctrinated in that regard. M's gonna know you posted on the internet' This one was like, dad's gonna be angry. Did some premie actually say this? This is very sick and very creepy. The vengeful god. This is so much a part of much of our religious upbringing, but it really is astounding that premies would say something like this, and really fear it, while saying at the same time that all BM is about is 'enjoying life' and that he is such a truly superior fountain of love. The contradiction is apparently lost on them. And in retrospect, I know that while I did enjoy some of being a devotee of BM, that was only SOME of the time. Much of the time it was a real drag and kind of suffocating. As you say, you have to get out of it before you can even see that, however, so strong is the self-deception. The last three programs i went to after 'popping' out of the belief system were actually quite painful at times, and definitely more pain than pleasure. I love hearing about truth and when M would speak about the glory of what I feel truly is, it was magnificent. However, when he would invariably speak about M's glory,at great length in his unique well honed 3rd person way, I couldn't feel more uncomfortable. This pretty much explains what I felt at the last few programs I attended in 1982-1983, and it was somewhat worse, probably, because those programs were much more blatantly BM-worship events and there was literally no support for those of us questioning. Fortunately I had a couple of premie friends who split aroung the time I did and we supported each other. I would add to the word 'uncomfortable' the words 'alone,' but I would also add the words, for me, 'excited about getting my life back.' I also agree that the new 'knowledge lite' is basically a loss-leader, meant to be more relatable to people than the devotional cult, but the more heavy stuff is held for later. I think the instructors manual is illustritive of this, showing that even in the aspirant process, the heavier stuff isn't even mentinoned until later in the process. Thanks for the ranting, Mark. Love to hear more of the premies' quotes. I must admit, however, I'm glad it's not me having to listen to them. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Jun 05, 1998 at 15:59:03 (EST)
From: eb Email: None To: JW Subject: Beyond Belief Message: I just spent about an hour listening to the woman who inspired me to investigate various healing paths. She's a premie, just back from Long Beach. As much as I appreciate the role she's played in my life as a friend and fellow truth seeker, I now feel that our relationship is strained and difficult. She bought a tape of Daya and was playing it really loudly while we talked--maybe she thought I'd become inspired again. I feel so far removed from the programming that allows people to worship M. It seems so wierd to me now. I have the forum to thank; honestly, I felt I was at a standstill in my life for the past few years. I'd go to see M hoping to work myself up to that bliss I remembered. But it was clearly not working for me towards the end. I'm starting to feel some real closure, esp. after viewing the LOTU video. Thanks for being there, eb Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Jun 05, 1998 at 16:06:41 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: eb Subject: any details, eb? Message: eb, Any gossip? Did Maharaji mention the page in any way according to your friend? Did you give your friend mindsang? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Jun 05, 1998 at 21:40:14 (EST)
From: Selena Email: None To: eb Subject: Beyond Belief Message: You know, I don't know if I'll ever be able to go to Long Beach again, even for a ferry to Catalina Island! I read that name and I cringe, I remember the same things, eb, going time and time again trying to catch some high that was missing, blaming myself for not being cool enough or spiritually evolved enuf to get it. and, coming out the other side, becoming interested in life agian, knowing that I have a role in directing my life and a responsibility in how I act. What a relief and a reawakening of energy and motivation! I'm just glad they don't hold my work conventions there. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Jun 05, 1998 at 16:13:23 (EST)
From: Rick Email: None To: JW Subject: Beyond Belief Message: I also find it creepy that a premie would imply that BM is going to know that someone posted on the Internet. I found, years after I left the BM, that I was carrying a similar belief about God. I had cultivated a vague belief that God exists, based on scanty evidence of intelligence in nature (water evaporates, makes clouds, then rain, that waters the plants that feed us... that sort of thing), into an insistence that I know God exists. There was also a strong underlying fear that I better not piss Him/Her off. After doing alot of thinking, and relinquishing the same sort of belief system in God, that I had in BM, I considered how little I actually know about it. I also did some imagining about how I would want to be if I were God. I realized I wouldn't want to get pissed off and vindictive because someone didn't believe in me, or even if they insulted me. After all, I'd be God, not a tyrannical employer or dictator. I'd want people to love me on their own, without any fear. I mean, that's what normal people want anyway. So how could God be 'lower' than that. It wouldn't make sense. No, the easiest and best way to test anyone's God, is to tell them to 'Fuck off'. If the God's real, it'll be okay. And if not, He/She can't do much anyway. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Jun 05, 1998 at 17:22:48 (EST)
From: Judex Email: None To: Mark and JW Subject: Beyond Belief Message: Thanks Mark for your description, if that's the word of how it feels to be in a belief system (probably any kind?) and JW for what keeps you in it. Mark I really relate to it being like, if you squint and really want to believe. I think of something from Shakti Gawain's Dancing in the Light, which I didn't think was very significant when I first read it - she said someone (thing?) can 'channel' the 'god' experience and reflect/connect it for you for a while but then it will change. For example, when you fall in love, you feel so blissful, safe and connected - like that feeling you can't do anything wrong, every step you take is in synch with the universe and has a higher purpose, etc (I felt that on LSD too). But she said what happens is it moves, the connection, because it is not in that thing you saw it in. Then you are left looking at the 'shell'. I think she said this is because it comes through you and is reflected at times outside of yourself but does not exist there. I don't know if this thought is helpful as to 'why' this happens. I certainly know it happens with drugs and also new age thinking. It can be very exciting to think you are the creator of the whole of your own reality, through your beliefs (which I also found to be hurtful, damaging and addictive material). So what interests me, you mention moving beyond these beliefs...as a species? Is that what you're saying there? One thing I know is that being in the presence of M in person was confronting for me. It made me really look at (feel) where I was at, honestly. But now I feel that I don't want/need to wait 1 or 2 years to be at his feet and have him be my 'father'. I have what feels like a strong connection to life as my teacher. Astrologers, do you think this 'mood change' is symbolised by Neptune going into Aquarius - I read this is to do with seeking truth and needing to find out, not just believe. Or perhaps that is irrelevant - I didn't particularly 'believe' it when I read it but I seem to see it happening, here anyway, and therefore the 'mystique' of M can't survive, beautiful though it may have been at times, it was also suffocating. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Jun 05, 1998 at 17:49:54 (EST)
From: Keith Email: None To: everyone Subject: Beyond Belief Message: Yes, it moves....the thing that one projects god onto moves ...changes....silly dills we are ....we were looking in the wrong place .....we were looking at the finger pointing at the moon rather than the moon....so where is the moon? Where is god? Who is asking? God is asking . God is within. God has manifested in human form! It's true! God has individualised into a multitude of god-selves. That's the MYSTERY! The jokes on us. God has manifested as a sceptic who says god is a lot of bunkum. HAHAHA! God is like my dog but with consciousness of self thrown in for good measure. Feel it ! You are it so you may as well feel it! Maharaji is one of many mirrors to tell you that you are what you seek. When you have really understood this you can dispose of the mirror if you wish. If you have not understood this than you have not yet learnt how to look into a mirror. SO ....to all us little gods who play hide and seek with ourselves.... blessings to US!! Swami Keith ji. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Jun 05, 1998 at 18:18:19 (EST)
From: Keith Email: golddiva@wire.net.au To: Keith Subject: Beyond Belief Message: The mirror. I know who I am, But who are you? I am your reflection. The penny drops! The mirror cracks. The duality ceases. The questions .....what questions? Can one live that way? My answer is...no..I can't..not consistently.....so what to do? Keep finding mirrors . Keep seeing your reflection. See who you are! Drop the mirror. (by pass the penny). Welcome to the bliss. (time disappears). Where did IT go? (time returns). Where's a mirror? Get it? There are two types of merry-go-round. One is a circle that behaves like a rut....endless return. The other is a spiral that behaves like an evolving force.. endless growth. There is a place for both. But don't get lost in just one. Bliss ninnies and sceptics have a lot in common!! What a blast this forum is!! Keith Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Jun 08, 1998 at 23:38:31 (EST)
From: *<*...b Email: None To: Keith Subject: them's the facts?...perhaps. Message: I like your writeing. I still find myself comeing back to this, that even though I have this or that experience, I dont think that erases a larger conciousness that is concious on it's own just like I am. Here we are in these bodies and I know these girls who are talking about wedding gowns and an impending wedding. The last thing they want is to close thier eyes and decide they are now god. We are put here with all these tendencies and we are so very prone to excess in everything. Dont you suppose we are designed like we are so that we could all really fully BE just our very own independent selves? And the power that we are a part of has given itself traits and a personality of sorts and that our fragmented condition is not a grevious flaw but the design. We are all so different that even with everything similar, family members consistantly disagree. Even twins are like opposite poles of the magnet. All this variety and inability to do a mind meld is part of the design and for us to try to expand our ideas to some all-encompassing view is perhaps fun but I think we are stuck as finite by design. And as a good piece of luck. Individuality is a great thing. rawat wanted us to be some ant colony with us as the obedient drones and him as the the god queen. THERE is someone who believes that he can just ASSUME oneness and because he does, the 'i am god' thing becomes real. I think he has proved that the reality is something different than that. It COULD be that we could just assume it, but the design IS, that we cant. It is a good design and even if our ideas are superiour to the ones that were chosen, WE didn't do the decideing and THIS design is the one chosen and ends up being the way it is. Just a thought, what do you think? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 02:04:55 (EST)
From: Keith Email: None To: *<*...b Subject: them's the facts?...perhaps. Message: Bill, I'll respond in an above thread. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 08:17:58 (EST)
From: Judex Email: None To: *<*...b Subject: them's the facts?...perhaps. Message: again, *<...b I have to say I like your ideas very much in that post. To me your post contains good and valuable thoughts about individuality and design...you are obviously a thinker. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Jun 05, 1998 at 05:24:02 (EST)
From: Mirabai Email: None To: Robyn Subject: Spiritual Arrogance. To Robyn Message: Hi Robyn, thankyou for your very welcoming gesture. No, Keith and I don't have a problem with our changing views regarding Maharaji. Our understanding is pretty simple really. It seems from what you said in your post is that you weren't very badly affected by Ms world and that you felt meditation is what was most important to you. Correct me if I'm wrong. Really I've found teachers that I have respected to be an inspiration more than anything else. I know that what I most need to know must come from within me. Nobody else can give me real wisdom or understanding. I especially appreciate teachers who ask nothing of me. best wishes Mirabai Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Jun 05, 1998 at 10:30:59 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Mirabai Subject: Spiritual Arrogance. To Robyn Message: Dear Mirabai, Thank you for answering my post. I don't know if it is your name, it has a melodious/poetic nature for me that I find inviting and Keith, is such an open person, I think you must be also. I am happy that your paths are well matched. It is refreshing to see, or, er, hear about. I have had only myself as my teacher for the most part. I made a break from my family at 9 yrs, emotionally I rejected their teachings and found my own, slowly over the years. I was no little enlightened soul believe me! No guru I just saw no other way. I knew I wanted more from my life than my parents had from theirs. What I got from M for the most part was those techniques and as others here have said I got them from a mahatma, which is probably why M started to be the only giver. I don't even remember that mahatma's name.I had a powerful experience there that I saw as connected to the mahatma, because as he walked past me and brushed me with his flowing clothes I had a VERY powerful experience of the word, but I saw it, from when I first heard about it as something naturally inside each person, as an ability of this human form. Glad I finally got a chance to share with you. You seem gentle and intelligent and I am once again ultra emotional today. Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Jun 05, 1998 at 11:24:00 (EST)
From: Man of the Cheesecloth Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: Robyn Subject: Hey Robin Message: Your experience when the Mahatma brushed past you is not a million miles away from my cliff top experience with my hippy friends in St Ives. Also, years ago I remember talking to a girl (she was a premie) and she said that she was getting really high like never before as I was talking with her. This Star Trek type of mind melding or actively affecting another's consciousness by touching or being in the presence of, is a fascinating subject which I intend to pursue further. I have already said elswhere that sometimes I am radically affected by other people's vibrations in this way and I think it's an avenue of human experience which is pretty unexplored. Further comments from you or anyone else about this would be very interesting. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Jun 05, 1998 at 11:43:17 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs To: Man of the Cheesecloth Subject: Hey Robin Message: Dear Chedd, I am just picturing you wrapped in only cheesecloth, and no offense but I am laughing. You are holding a bowl of berries, cheesecloth puts me in mind of making jelly, or jam which ever is the one that has the pulp strained out! I tell you, Chedd, if I had the time and the focus and some way to work on these abilities, as of now I am at their whim, I would be one powerful woman! I've been raw lately and it is a good thing, getting into some deep stuff and working it out but I was thinking that, to Jim's dissapointment, I deal in mostly intuitive space. I can buckle down and function in the world, I can even study and achieve wordly goals and I want to also but I am most comfortable and feel the most naturally true to my being by living in that fuzzy area of the unseen. Picking up feelings and impressions from others, experiencing myself through unexplainable experiences and mind blowing unexplained connections to others thoughts and feelings before they've even felt them themselves and dreams. I was thinking this morning about a different experience I'd had to share with Keith, you, whomever. I was a fairly new premie and lived in this area of PA on a commune of premies growing veggies for a co-op in NYC. I was driving to NJ to visit friends and family and on the trip I kept picturing my friend, Karl, from highschool who had moved to FL during our senior year. I just remember picturing him by another friend's pool. When I got into the area I had to go to that friend's house before I went to my parent's house. I got there and rang the bell and Deb's mom answered the door with arms outstreched and a very suprized look on her face. Deb wasn't home but she was with Karl, who was visiting from FL and she told me where to find them, bowling. I went there and snuk up from behing and covered his eyes and when he saw that I was there he said he'd been lying out by the pool during the day and just kept picturing me pulling into the driveway. Wonder if he is thinking of me right now! Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Jun 05, 1998 at 11:52:50 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs To: Robyn Subject: Hey Robin/Robyn Message: Hey, I think it is time to come clean. The real spelling for my name is Robin. When I was 9, the same year I split emotionally from my family, and I just realized the same age Jess was as Violet in that dream and the same # Jessica had that powerful dream about on her first night back from Africa! I love it! Anyone know anything about numerology? Anyway when I was 9, my family belonged to a lake and they would have this huge graph paper like poster displayed with anyone's name who wanted to do it. It was to record laps. I could swim well by that age and put my name on the list and noticed another Robyn there who spelled her name with a 'y'. I've been using it ever since. It was, thinking about it now, another seperation I made from my mom. I do use the 'i' for work and legal stuff and I hate when I see anyone use the 'i' here even though I have been tearing Mirabai's name up, thanks Keith, that Mira suggestion got it to click, I think. I think it is because I know I have to use it legally unless I have the money someday to change it but I don't even care about that, I just don't think of it as 'me'. Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Jun 06, 1998 at 09:02:56 (EST)
From: Man of the Cheesecloth Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: Robyn Subject: Hey Robin/Robyn Message: Yes, your desription of me fits me to a T. How did you know I looked like that? Robyn, you wrote: 'Anyway when I was 9, my family belonged to a lake' Now I get it, you're a mermaid! Yes I like swimming too. When I was in my early teens I used to live in the local swimming pool. Water is my element. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Jun 06, 1998 at 10:24:50 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs To: Man of the Cheesecloth Subject: Hey Robin/Robyn Message: Dear Chedd, Yes! I wish I was a mermaid. Water is my element as well. Charles says I am a dolphin. Robyn Oh, I can't let it go, at the risk of looking foolish, what description to a T, about my childhood, about the water? Looked like what!? I am still under the impression that you are a porno star! Once you said something about maybe BM not approving of the way you make your living. David, you are a wonderful mystery to me! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Jun 05, 1998 at 11:50:01 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: Man of the Cheesecloth Subject: Mind Meld Message: Hi David (love your newest moniker) Re: mind melding. I was always very sensitive to people's vibrations, partly as a result of growing up with alcoholics where you HAD to be aware of what was going on inside another person all the time. Some of this was body language related, but I think it goes beyond that. I was easily able to get 'contact highs' from people on drugs - in fact, I used to be the 'straight' person for a group of people who were tripping because I could get just as high by being around them (but could come down really fast if needed!). I also had an experience similar to Robyn's in my knowledge session. I was really having trouble seeing light, and the mahatma came and touched my eyes, and I really SAW LIGHT. Not that golden doughnut thing (does anyone know what I'm talking about), which I am convinced is an optic phenomenon, but real white light. I can still remember what it looks like - it had both an appearance and a feeling associated with it, and if I ever want to visualize light, I just remember that knowledge session. (BTW, I never saw light again while practicing the techniques during my years as a premie!) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Jun 05, 1998 at 11:58:15 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs To: Katie Subject: Mind Meld Message: Dear Katie, I never saw bright white light, just as a point far in the distance but I did start out to see the doughnut shapes but after practicing for 6 months I started to have really wonderful symetrical light shows. Intricate desings and always symetrical, and changing shape and color! Love ya kiddo, Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Jun 05, 1998 at 12:31:32 (EST)
From: david f. Email: dkfreed@whidbey.com To: Robyn Subject: meditation experiences Message: Well, all this talk about seeing light, hmm. I never was really sure if I saw any light or was just pushing on my eyeballs real hard (though I did have experiences of inner sound), but to me, this is all beside the point. The truth is that any of us can have quite vivid or psycic (sp) experiences when we do intensive concentration practices like these. However, these are just a few techniques out of many, there's nothing secret or particularly holy or even spiritual about them. However, BM has made a great deal of money and created a lot of harm by presenting these as spiritual and secret, and himself as some kind of holy being. My own spiritual, or human, path has been to become more human, not more holy or spiritual, to fill this space I call me more fully and try to be as honest and present as I can. I think that BM is offering (and what many of us strive for) is some promise of escape from life, what Chogyam Trungpa (tibetan buddhist teacher) used to call 'spiritual materialism.' But really, isn't striving to be the highest, or most enlightend, or wanting to have the ultimate guru not much different than wanting the best car, the sexist mate, the most money, etc, etc? And doesnt' it lead us away from the present and from ourselves in the same way? What do you all think? best wishes, david f. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Jun 05, 1998 at 13:06:56 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs To: david f. Subject: meditation experiences Message: Dear David, Your post is contributing to my thoughtful day, thank you. I do realize, from reading the forum that these are not unique or the be all end all of meditational techniques and or experiences. I do see the ability to be able to experience them as an inherently human. It is a wonder to me. I have connected the experiences to spirituality because of the peacful feelings that result but that could be a topic of discussion and neither here or there, just labels. Keith posted about the validity of even drug induced experiences, god knows I have had powerful experiences of a similar to meditation, sort under the influence myself. For me it all points to the fact that there is so much more to life than the surface stuff. I like what you say about becoming more human because that is my main thing also. I feel that pursuit is deeply connected to my spiritual path, that no spiritual path exists for me without that component of expending a lot of effort and energy to become the best person I can become. I do have a problem with being in the 'here and now' more and more as the stresses and responsibilities of life have taken their toll. It is also an issue I am just becoming aware of as one to tackle. I have known about it for a long time but see it's time coming up to be worked on. I was told by a therapist once, that I don't feel like I can be myself if I am in the role of student, mother, daughter, worker etc. I related to this immediately as I always think I will take care of me later when everything else is taken care of so I can relax but that day never comes and life always has something besides myself that needs attention. I think for premies now and from the past, that reverberate the party line and can not bend or consider are in the throws of an escape from reality but I don't think that is a definte conclusion to be drawn from the experience of meditation. But what do I know, I need a nap, just my intuitive thoughts with nothing other than experience and gut feeling to back them up. Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Jun 05, 1998 at 14:31:45 (EST)
From: carol Email: None To: Robyn Subject: meditation experiences Message: Robyn, Your willingness to explore your beliefs and express them here are evidence that you are attending to your real needs in the here and now. I think I share many of your feelings and experiences.I'd like to be helpful and wish I could give you a hug, as you are so willing to do! Hope you can have a good rest. You are already a very good person, so I hope you can trust that, and that your changes and growth into your ideal self are proceeding quite well. carol :) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Jun 05, 1998 at 14:19:45 (EST)
From: carol Email: None To: Katie, Robyn, David Subject: Mind Meld Message: I also understand and experience that kind of intuitive connection that you all are speaking about. (It must be meme-related....an interesting site and links!) A family counselor we had once called it 'radar'. Children with difficult families develop a keen sense for recognizing possible trouble or danger. In my kids case, it also helped them recognize other kids like themselves who were available for various risk-taking activities. carol Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Jun 05, 1998 at 22:06:14 (EST)
From: Selena Email: None To: carol Subject: Mind Meld and radar Message: the 'radar' concept is very interesting Carol. It would certainly explain why I am the way I am - given my childhodd and the need to survive. I suppose one could look at it as a special gift that was earned the hard way. Thanks for posting that. It really has me thinking (yes, thinking! oh no!) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Jun 05, 1998 at 18:15:01 (EST)
From: Judex Email: None To: Man of the Cheesecloth Subject: Hey Robin Message: Yes 'MOTC' I mentioned in a recent post about seeing light while 'doing the business' with a premie. (Hate that expression but don't have a better one - any helpful suggestions?) Anyway, yeah that doesnt usually happen to me because I am mostly celibate these days anyway - after I posted that I thought, hey, maybe these 'married' people experience that every night! I must look like a doofus! But yes, it was certainly very exeptional for me, that I saw light the whole time. It was definitely the effect he had on me and it was nothing to do with love/feelings or even pleasure. It was more like his 'force field' or 'energy body' produced an effect in me. Sorry to have to use this as an example but I think it's a very good example of what you're talking about. (Like to come up to my room and see the light! - yeah) I also had experiences of being able to tell people about knowledge - we would get in a sort of 'space' which was almost hypnotic, and truths would be told (????) I question that because I began to wonder if M was speaking through me from my own 'programming'. I didn't really feel it came from me and it was not like channeling something good or true. It was a bit sad because I didn't really know if I really really believed it would make people happy. I just believed it was necessary for people to save their souls before they died. Also when receiving 'satsang' from an aspirant (believe it or not) I saw light pouring out of her as she spoke. This makes me sad because of the beauty which people's souls reveal which I never saw much of after that person was revealed knowledge. I think now that somehow it was necessary for me to go through that procedure that M talks about of the student approaching the master, emptying their bowl and asking humbly and without cheat or deceit for knowledge (enlightenment). I suppose I am responsbile for my own experiences, and I now take responsibility for not being happy practicing knowledge and doing service and listening. I don't know how this has happened because I was prepared to spend the rest of my life doing it. I hope M can see, if he does read the Forum, that I am sincere. And that when I 'throw stones' at him and some premies, it is an expression of my disappointment/rage. But just like becoming disillusioned from romantic love, I suppose it had to happen. Now I want to keep growing. It's not a cheap trick. It's harder without a face on the wall. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Jun 05, 1998 at 19:13:52 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Judex Subject: Hey Judex Message: Judex, It troubles me to read about some of the shit you go through. I think I understand some of it, having been there to some extent myself. It was 'de rigeur' to think you were channelling M in satsang. That was the point. Open your heart, feel the 'word' and let M speak through you. That hypnotic space was indeed mysterious. I once thought it was magical. I once felt that M was everywhere, in everything and constantly iteracting with me somehow. He reinforced that concept regularly in his own satsangs. Plus it was the settled doctrine of the church and all the priests and priestesses, as well as senior brothers and sisters in the light kept reinforcing it. Then, when I began withdrawing from M, I still held on to some part of that belief. I still looked at people as if we 'wee all one' somehow, as if some deeper part of me spoke to some deerper part of them, as if the universe itself spoke to all of us through anything and everything. Then, I started to grow up. As a child I used to be afraid of certain nondescript entities that might 'get me' in bed. Thus I always slept with the covers over my head,leaving just enough room for my face. I can't remember when I stopped doing that but it was much later in life than I'd like to admit. Maybe I was a teenager or something. By then, of cours, I didn't 'really' believe any such thing but, well, you know.... comfort levels? Now I don't do that. But it's not to say that I can't relate to those same childish imaginings. I can still get spooked -- and spook myself -- after a good horror movie. Hey, it's fun. But part of growing up is learning to see through, or perhaps see above, such imgaginngs. To accept them for what they are -- unreal. Maharaji was not talking through any of us as we believed in our hot, stuffy living rooms and rented halls night after night. Anymore than the universe was speaking through the 'insights' of some creative but wrong ancestors who thought a few stars kind of looked like a scorpion's tale. Anymore than some modern misguided person thinks the universe is 'channelling' some 'information' through their excited mind. All of this stuff is bullshit. It's a complete non-starter and there is no excuse for any intelligent, literate person in our society to cling to any of it. I can only laugh at people like Keith who seem to be enjoying life playing in their mystical nonsense. Life seems to be okay for Keith. He's not particularly hurting so, really, who cares what he thinks? If he doesn't care himself, let him enjoy splashing in the wading pool of new age idiocy. I know, it's kind of fun. Just yesterday my girlfriend picked up this 'Intergalactic Space Travel Guide' for 'walk-ins' and other extra-terrestrials at a used book store. The book reads like a joke but, guess what? If you really want to know the truth you have to get serious and critical. I'd be happy to turn you on to the things I've read that have really made a difference. I just hate to see you plague yourself with so much superstition. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Jun 05, 1998 at 19:31:53 (EST)
From: Judex Email: None To: Jim Subject: To Jim Message: If you really want to know the truth you have to get serious and critical. I'd be happy to turn you on to the things I've read that have really made a difference. I just hate to see you plague yourself with so much superstition. Yes okay I will read these books. Please give me a list. I said before the doctor who helped me a lot was very critical and analytical. It cut through a lot of crap. When you said to Keith about actually asking that skeptic why he didnt follow through, you reminded me of him (and other therapists). There are some really important things I have learned that I just didn't know. (this isn't about your post Keith, BTW) 1. Is to find out whether things you imagine others think are true or not, by asking them 2. Find out about things you left unsolved in the past. For example when I was 21 I wrote two television scripts for a soap opera, and then left town before they went to air. I never even saw them! So in my mind, they were good, they were bad, I wouldnt know. I have no realistic feedback of the result of my actions. 3. When someone offers you something you think might help you, say yes. You already know I told you that new age stuff made me absolutely sick and ill. It was the worst thing I have ever done for my mental health. This is me I'm talking about, not others. Maybe they can handle it but I couldn't. Thank you for your kind offer. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Jun 05, 1998 at 20:06:26 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Judex Subject: Here's a start Message: Judex, May I suggest tracking down a few of the latest copies of Skeptic Magazine, in particular the God issue from last fall? You might also want to read the editor, Michael Shermer's, own book, 'Why people believe weird things'. It's good. He's sharp. Another good book that I've mentioned lots here because it's such a good introduction to Darwin, Darwinism, and the current excitement in the field (including evolutionary psychology) is Robert Wright's 'The Moral Animal'. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Jun 05, 1998 at 21:56:23 (EST)
From: Selena Email: None To: Man of the Cheesecloth Subject: Mind Meld Message: Hi Cheese David I experience this all the time. I know right away what kind of mood or feelings someone has and often I even read thoughts. I really do, it's eerie, I am not concious of it, but I have answered poeple's questions before they ask them and freaked them out and there have been other similar examples, I often start conversations only to hear someone say ' I was just thinking about that!'. But for me, the worst part is, I also project really strongly. This means people seem to always know how I am feeling even when I absolutely want my emotional and psychic privacy. It can be a real drag for a private person like myself. i have been this way since I can remember. It's not easy. The funny thing is, I have been really kind of turned off by all the new age stuff for a long time, yet these experiences haven't diminished one bit, so I doubt it has anything to do with a belief system. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |