Ex-Premie.Org

Forum III Archive # 10

From: May 28, 1998

To: Jun 9, 1998

Page: 4 Of: 5



Steven -:- My thoughts and feelings -:- Mon, Jun 01, 1998 at 15:25:20 (EST)
__Jim -:- My thoughts and feelings -:- Mon, Jun 01, 1998 at 16:05:23 (EST)
__JW -:- My thoughts and feelings -:- Mon, Jun 01, 1998 at 17:58:00 (EST)
____Steven -:- My thoughts and feelings -:- Mon, Jun 01, 1998 at 18:21:17 (EST)
______Jim -:- My thoughts and feelings -:- Mon, Jun 01, 1998 at 18:49:17 (EST)
________carol -:- My thoughts and feelings -:- Mon, Jun 01, 1998 at 23:48:59 (EST)
__________Rick -:- My thoughts and feelings -:- Tues, Jun 02, 1998 at 00:43:24 (EST)
____________Robyn -:- Rick -:- Tues, Jun 02, 1998 at 15:13:18 (EST)
______________Rick -:- Rick -:- Tues, Jun 02, 1998 at 19:01:39 (EST)
__Pam -:- My thoughts and feelings -:- Tues, Jun 02, 1998 at 00:25:03 (EST)
____Judex -:- My thoughts and feelings -:- Tues, Jun 02, 1998 at 00:28:39 (EST)
______Pam -:- My thoughts and feelings -:- Tues, Jun 02, 1998 at 00:33:58 (EST)
________charles -:- your? thoughts and feelings -:- Tues, Jun 02, 1998 at 01:20:13 (EST)
__________Sir David -:- Right on, Charles! -:- Tues, Jun 02, 1998 at 01:39:27 (EST)
____________Joy -:- Right on, Charles! -:- Tues, Jun 02, 1998 at 02:06:48 (EST)
______________Robyn -:- Right on, Charles! -:- Tues, Jun 02, 1998 at 15:41:14 (EST)
______________JW -:- Right on, Joy! -:- Tues, Jun 02, 1998 at 17:27:12 (EST)
________________Jim -:- The ultimate outing -:- Tues, Jun 02, 1998 at 17:52:03 (EST)
__________________JW -:- The ultimate outing -:- Tues, Jun 02, 1998 at 18:02:53 (EST)
____________________Jim -:- The ultimate outing -:- Tues, Jun 02, 1998 at 18:08:33 (EST)
______________________JW -:- The ultimate outing -:- Tues, Jun 02, 1998 at 18:11:36 (EST)
________________________Jim -:- The ultimate outing -:- Tues, Jun 02, 1998 at 18:18:14 (EST)
__________________________Joy -:- Closets -:- Wed, Jun 03, 1998 at 00:39:47 (EST)
____________________________Robyn -:- Closets -:- Wed, Jun 03, 1998 at 08:53:43 (EST)
____________________________JW -:- Closets -:- Wed, Jun 03, 1998 at 12:35:56 (EST)
______________________________Joy -:- Closets -:- Wed, Jun 03, 1998 at 13:40:37 (EST)
____________________________Katie -:- In Defense of Closets -:- Thurs, Jun 04, 1998 at 10:52:48 (EST)
____________charles -:- praises -:- Tues, Jun 02, 1998 at 02:13:39 (EST)
__________carol -:- your? thoughts and feelings -:- Tues, Jun 02, 1998 at 02:12:53 (EST)
____________charles -:- thoughts and feelings -:- Tues, Jun 02, 1998 at 02:29:19 (EST)
______________carol -:- thoughts and feelings -:- Tues, Jun 02, 1998 at 02:39:11 (EST)
________Sir David -:- My thoughts and feelings -:- Tues, Jun 02, 1998 at 01:31:34 (EST)
__________carol -:- My thoughts and feelings -:- Tues, Jun 02, 1998 at 02:31:06 (EST)
____________Robyn -:- My thoughts and feelings -:- Tues, Jun 02, 1998 at 15:27:58 (EST)
______________carol -:- My thoughts and feelings -:- Tues, Jun 02, 1998 at 22:29:40 (EST)
______________Joy -:- My thoughts and feelings -:- Wed, Jun 03, 1998 at 00:49:17 (EST)
____John Hammond-Smyth -:- Hearts of stone -:- Tues, Jun 02, 1998 at 01:57:26 (EST)
______Jim -:- Hearts of stone -:- Tues, Jun 02, 1998 at 02:46:16 (EST)
______Rick -:- Hearts of stone -:- Tues, Jun 02, 1998 at 11:07:07 (EST)
____JW -:- My thoughts and feelings -:- Tues, Jun 02, 1998 at 14:37:51 (EST)
______Jim -:- Just wishful thinking,no? -:- Tues, Jun 02, 1998 at 15:42:25 (EST)
________JW -:- Just wishful thinking,no? -:- Tues, Jun 02, 1998 at 17:55:37 (EST)
__________Jim -:- Raja Ji has an answer -:- Tues, Jun 02, 1998 at 18:07:49 (EST)
____________JW -:- Raja Ji has an answer -:- Tues, Jun 02, 1998 at 18:21:27 (EST)
______________Jim -:- Raja Ji has an answer -:- Tues, Jun 02, 1998 at 18:36:33 (EST)
________________carol -:- Raja Ji has an answer -:- Tues, Jun 02, 1998 at 22:44:23 (EST)
__________________carol -:- Jim,talking to you here -:- Thurs, Jun 04, 1998 at 03:55:16 (EST)
__________________Jim -:- sorry, thought I'd answered -:- Thurs, Jun 04, 1998 at 10:39:58 (EST)
______carol -:- Well said JW! -:- Tues, Jun 02, 1998 at 22:35:06 (EST)
____Robyn -:- My thoughts and feelings -:- Tues, Jun 02, 1998 at 15:16:29 (EST)

bftb -:- DOC is not M -:- Mon, Jun 01, 1998 at 10:39:50 (EST)
__Jim -:- DOC is not M -:- Mon, Jun 01, 1998 at 13:36:50 (EST)
____Pam -:- DOC is not M -:- Tues, Jun 02, 1998 at 00:41:40 (EST)
______Jim -:- DOC is not M -:- Tues, Jun 02, 1998 at 02:33:15 (EST)

Richard -:- Dates for Journey -:- Mon, Jun 01, 1998 at 06:52:15 (EST)
__been there done that -:- Dates for Journey -:- Mon, Jun 01, 1998 at 10:01:09 (EST)
____Richard -:- Dates for Journey -:- Mon, Jun 01, 1998 at 10:33:49 (EST)
____carol -:- Dates for Guru Puja Amherst -:- Mon, Jun 01, 1998 at 23:37:37 (EST)
__Robyn -:- Dates for Journey -:- Mon, Jun 01, 1998 at 17:14:12 (EST)
____Richard -:- Yes, Yes and Yes.. -:- Tues, Jun 02, 1998 at 11:23:51 (EST)

Keith -:- Krishnamurti -:- Mon, Jun 01, 1998 at 06:05:05 (EST)
__Jim -:- Why I don't like Krishnamurti -:- Mon, Jun 01, 1998 at 14:38:06 (EST)
____Keith -:- Why I don't like Krishnamurti -:- Mon, Jun 01, 1998 at 23:13:17 (EST)
______Keith -:- you don't like Krishnamurti -:- Mon, Jun 01, 1998 at 23:17:45 (EST)
________Judex -:- different strokes -:- Tues, Jun 02, 1998 at 00:13:05 (EST)
__________Robyn -:- different strokes -:- Wed, Jun 03, 1998 at 16:19:05 (EST)
__Robyn -:- Krishnamurti -:- Wed, Jun 03, 1998 at 16:10:07 (EST)
____Keith -:- Krishnamurti's quote -:- Thurs, Jun 04, 1998 at 05:12:01 (EST)
______Robyn -:- Krishnamurti's quote -:- Thurs, Jun 04, 1998 at 08:31:59 (EST)
______Jim -:- Perversity -:- Thurs, Jun 04, 1998 at 10:47:42 (EST)
________Keith -:- Diversity -:- Thurs, Jun 04, 1998 at 19:51:08 (EST)

D. Katz -:- a question for doc -:- Sun, May 31, 1998 at 21:07:32 (EST)
__DOC -:- a question for doc -:- Mon, Jun 01, 1998 at 09:11:32 (EST)
____Jim -:- Another question for doc -:- Mon, Jun 01, 1998 at 13:54:46 (EST)

Jim -:- The MIND!! -- an insight -:- Sun, May 31, 1998 at 17:55:53 (EST)
__Jim -:- Hopefully clearer explanation -:- Mon, Jun 01, 1998 at 01:33:39 (EST)
____charles -:- Mind, jumping to conclusions -:- Mon, Jun 01, 1998 at 13:57:53 (EST)
______Judex -:- Mind, jumping to conclusions -:- Tues, Jun 02, 1998 at 00:21:16 (EST)
________charles -:- Mind, jumping to conclusions -:- Tues, Jun 02, 1998 at 02:04:16 (EST)
__________Robyn -:- Mind, jumping to conclusions -:- Tues, Jun 02, 1998 at 16:05:17 (EST)
____________Robyn -:- Judex -:- Tues, Jun 02, 1998 at 16:09:05 (EST)
________carol -:- Mind, jumping to conclusions -:- Tues, Jun 02, 1998 at 02:52:02 (EST)

seymour -:- meditation - response -:- Sun, May 31, 1998 at 08:50:47 (EST)
__Keith -:- meditation - response -:- Sun, May 31, 1998 at 23:02:00 (EST)
____seymour -:- meditation - response -:- Tues, Jun 02, 1998 at 15:01:25 (EST)
______Judex -:- meditation - response -:- Tues, Jun 02, 1998 at 16:01:31 (EST)

carol -:- Reincarnation or hallucination -:- Sun, May 31, 1998 at 00:51:40 (EST)
__English Cheddar -:- Reincarnation or hallucination -:- Sun, May 31, 1998 at 07:36:45 (EST)

Keith -:- The dark computor -:- Sun, May 31, 1998 at 00:10:38 (EST)
__charles -:- The dark computor -:- Mon, Jun 01, 1998 at 14:47:24 (EST)

Judex -:- How the Message has Changed -:- Sat, May 30, 1998 at 18:24:15 (EST)
__*>*...b -:- How the Message has Changed -:- Sun, May 31, 1998 at 23:14:27 (EST)
__Richard -:- How the Message has Changed -:- Mon, Jun 01, 1998 at 10:24:36 (EST)
__Pam -:- How the Message has Changed -:- Tues, Jun 02, 1998 at 00:49:12 (EST)
____Jim -:- How the Message has Changed -:- Tues, Jun 02, 1998 at 03:01:01 (EST)

Mirabai -:- Spiritual Arrogance -:- Sat, May 30, 1998 at 06:53:28 (EST)
__DOC -:- Spiritual Arrogance -:- Sat, May 30, 1998 at 12:26:36 (EST)
____Jim -:- Brilliant, Doc -:- Sat, May 30, 1998 at 14:46:04 (EST)
____Rick -:- Spiritual Arrogance -:- Sat, May 30, 1998 at 16:11:48 (EST)
______*>*...b -:- It's worse than Arrogance -:- Sun, May 31, 1998 at 22:47:03 (EST)
________Rick -:- It's worse than Arrogance -:- Mon, Jun 01, 1998 at 00:57:59 (EST)
________JW -:- It's worse than Arrogance -:- Tues, Jun 02, 1998 at 17:38:09 (EST)
____Jim -:- Major problem, Doc -:- Sat, May 30, 1998 at 17:26:56 (EST)
____Judex -:- Spiritual Arrogance -:- Sat, May 30, 1998 at 18:20:38 (EST)
______Keith -:- Spiritual Arrogance -:- Sat, May 30, 1998 at 21:51:34 (EST)
________Judex -:- Spiritual Arrogance -:- Sat, May 30, 1998 at 23:21:43 (EST)
____John Hammond-Smyth -:- Spiritual Arrogance -:- Sat, May 30, 1998 at 23:40:35 (EST)
______K.S -:- Spiritual Arrogance -:- Sun, May 31, 1998 at 00:34:50 (EST)
____Richard -:- Not long to go now... -:- Mon, Jun 01, 1998 at 07:51:08 (EST)
______Charles -:- Not long to go now... -:- Tues, Jun 02, 1998 at 02:37:17 (EST)
__Robyn -:- Spiritual Arrogance -:- Thurs, Jun 04, 1998 at 13:21:42 (EST)

seymour -:- Meditation - Is it worth it? -:- Sat, May 30, 1998 at 05:34:51 (EST)
__Sir David -:- Meditation - Is it worth it? -:- Sat, May 30, 1998 at 09:32:28 (EST)
__Keith -:- Meditation - Is it worth it? -:- Sat, May 30, 1998 at 09:56:56 (EST)
____Honest Cheddar -:- A can of worms -:- Sat, May 30, 1998 at 15:16:17 (EST)
______Keith -:- A can of principles -:- Sat, May 30, 1998 at 20:11:01 (EST)
________Keith -:- A can of principles -:- Sat, May 30, 1998 at 20:59:58 (EST)
__________Honest Cheddar -:- It is ironic -:- Sat, May 30, 1998 at 23:10:12 (EST)
__Joy -:- Meditation - Is it worth it? -:- Sat, May 30, 1998 at 12:55:19 (EST)
____Judex -:- Meditation - Is it worth it? -:- Sat, May 30, 1998 at 18:09:59 (EST)
______charles -:- Meditation - Is it worth it? -:- Sat, May 30, 1998 at 22:49:48 (EST)
____carol -:- Meditation - Is it worth it? -:- Sun, May 31, 1998 at 21:52:20 (EST)
__carol -:- Meditation - Is it worth it? -:- Sun, May 31, 1998 at 01:08:40 (EST)

Mickey the Pharisee -:- Bye Kids! -:- Sat, May 30, 1998 at 00:08:45 (EST)
__VP -:- Bye Kids, too! -:- Sat, May 30, 1998 at 22:44:00 (EST)
____Jim -:- See you Veep -:- Sun, May 31, 1998 at 00:19:41 (EST)
______Veep, almost on vacation -:- See you Veep -:- Sun, May 31, 1998 at 16:55:03 (EST)
____John Hammond-Smyth -:- Bye Kids, too! -:- Sun, May 31, 1998 at 08:30:54 (EST)
____*>*...b -:- vp and big Mickey -:- Sun, May 31, 1998 at 23:12:22 (EST)
__Jim -:- See you, Mickey -:- Sun, May 31, 1998 at 00:17:26 (EST)

Jim -:- Nigel on Dawkins & Gould -:- Fri, May 29, 1998 at 22:24:51 (EST)
__Gerry -:- Nigel on Dawkins & Gould -:- Sun, May 31, 1998 at 00:25:38 (EST)

*>*..b....The fake -:- doc rawat (mahahaharaj) -:- Fri, May 29, 1998 at 01:06:17 (EST)
__Sir David -:- doc rawat (mahahaharaj) -:- Fri, May 29, 1998 at 22:37:16 (EST)
____VP -:- Cheddar initiator -:- Sat, May 30, 1998 at 22:28:20 (EST)
______Judex -:- So long, Slim -:- Sat, May 30, 1998 at 23:33:41 (EST)
________Veep -almost vacation -:- So long, Slim -:- Sun, May 31, 1998 at 16:48:48 (EST)
____*>*...b -:- Sir David the Free -:- Sun, May 31, 1998 at 23:09:09 (EST)
__Jim -:- doc rawat (mahahaharaj) -:- Fri, May 29, 1998 at 23:08:31 (EST)

Kitty Kat -:- Lord of the Universe Video -:- Thurs, May 28, 1998 at 22:29:42 (EST)
__eb -:- LOTU video-clarification -:- Fri, May 29, 1998 at 00:30:06 (EST)
____Robyn -:- eb -:- Fri, May 29, 1998 at 08:42:26 (EST)
__Brian -:- Lord of the Universe Video -:- Fri, May 29, 1998 at 08:22:06 (EST)
____Robyn -:- Lord of the Universe Video -:- Fri, May 29, 1998 at 08:49:26 (EST)
______Judex -:- awakenings -:- Fri, May 29, 1998 at 16:30:22 (EST)
________Robyn -:- Awakenings! -:- Fri, May 29, 1998 at 22:16:14 (EST)
__John -:- Lord of the Universe Video -:- Fri, May 29, 1998 at 09:29:15 (EST)
__Katie -:- Lord of the Universe Video -:- Fri, May 29, 1998 at 12:31:03 (EST)
____carol -:- I fit the profile -:- Tues, Jun 02, 1998 at 03:21:24 (EST)
__eb -:- LOTU -:- Fri, May 29, 1998 at 12:33:52 (EST)
____Katie -:- LOTU -:- Fri, May 29, 1998 at 12:40:00 (EST)
______eb -:- LOTU -:- Fri, May 29, 1998 at 13:15:14 (EST)
________Katie -:- Bhole Ji's suit -:- Fri, May 29, 1998 at 13:23:46 (EST)
__________Jim -:- Hilarious, Katie -:- Fri, May 29, 1998 at 13:28:49 (EST)
____________Katie -:- Hilarious, Katie -:- Fri, May 29, 1998 at 13:31:31 (EST)
__________Larry -:- Bhole Ji's suit -:- Fri, May 29, 1998 at 17:34:52 (EST)
____________Jim -:- Bhole Ji's personality (and IQ -:- Fri, May 29, 1998 at 18:29:42 (EST)
____________Katie -:- Bhole Ji's suit -:- Fri, May 29, 1998 at 18:52:20 (EST)
______________charles -:- Bhole Ji, et al -:- Fri, May 29, 1998 at 22:22:50 (EST)
____________Mark -:- Bhole Ji's suit -:- Sun, May 31, 1998 at 02:33:37 (EST)
______________Anon -:- to Larry -:- Sun, May 31, 1998 at 07:01:09 (EST)
____________carol -:- Larry? -:- Tues, Jun 02, 1998 at 03:26:54 (EST)
______bftb -:- LOTU -:- Fri, May 29, 1998 at 15:10:41 (EST)
________JW -:- LOTU -:- Fri, May 29, 1998 at 15:15:38 (EST)
________John -:- LOTU -:- Fri, May 29, 1998 at 15:53:49 (EST)
__________Jim -:- Polyester doubleknit -:- Fri, May 29, 1998 at 16:10:21 (EST)
____________JW -:- Polyester doubleknit -:- Fri, May 29, 1998 at 16:37:09 (EST)
________Katie -:- LOTU -:- Fri, May 29, 1998 at 16:29:43 (EST)
______VP -:- LOTU -:- Fri, May 29, 1998 at 16:30:30 (EST)
____eb -:- BTW -:- Fri, May 29, 1998 at 13:01:24 (EST)
__VP -:- Generation Gap -:- Fri, May 29, 1998 at 17:36:14 (EST)


Date: Mon, Jun 01, 1998 at 15:25:20 (EST)
From: Steven
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: My thoughts and feelings
Message:
Hello

I received Knowledge over 10 years ago from Maharaji himself.
During that year of preparation, it truly was a beautiful
experience. Nothing was asked of me except to enjoy the moment.
For many reasons I put knowledge down and have been picking up
other tools on my path.
My search has brought me back to seek out Knowledge again. My memories of Maharaji our of Love and perfection, and not of a
God or man of material possesions.
Whoever he is now it is his life and I hope he's living it.

Sincerely
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Date: Mon, Jun 01, 1998 at 16:05:23 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Steven
Subject: My thoughts and feelings
Message:
I received Knowledge over 10 years ago from Maharaji himself.
During that year of preparation, it truly was a beautiful
experience. Nothing was asked of me except to enjoy the moment.
For many reasons I put knowledge down and have been picking up
other tools on my path.
My search has brought me back to seek out Knowledge again. My memories of Maharaji our of Love and perfection, and not of a
God or man of material possesions.
Whoever he is now it is his life and I hope he's living it.


Steven,

I guess it all depends on how superficial one is, doesn't it? If you've read this site at all you must have learned quite a bit you didn't know ten years ago:

1) Maharaji used to call himself the Supreme Lord in Human Form, God in Human form, the Saviour of Mankind, and the Messiah.

2) He promised to bring world peace and even set up his Divine United Organization (D.U.O.) to administrate his anticipated new world order.

3) He has two brothers besides Raja Ji. Together with their mother, they denounced Maharaji as a guru in 1974 and indeed, Satpal (a/k/a Bal Bhagwan Ji) has claimed since then that HE, not Maharaji, is the rightful heir to dad's dealership.

4) This internecine warfare is the rule, not the exception, in the history of all of these so-called spiritual men.

5) Maharaji used to impose a lot of stern demands on his premies. In fact, the whole contract that he offered us was no less than this, 'Give me the reigns of your life and I will give you peace. Surrender the reigns of your life to me and I will give you salvation.' To that end, he set up ashrams for premies to give their lives in in strict vows of poverty,chastity and obedience. A lot of people gave years of their lives faithfully because they trusted that he knew what he was talking about. That is, that there was indeed some goal he was leading us to -- 'God realization' and that we had to give our all to get there. When Maharaji finally dismanlted the ashrams in 1983 he avoided any explanation. Thus, people who had spent ten, fifteen, even twenty years in this order and sacrificed literally everything in order to do so, were simply bumped out into the world with nothing but 'their share' of the ashram debt.

6) Almost all the people who were ever initiated by Maharaji have left him. Not becuase they weren't sincere but because a) they realized, sometimes after years of diligent trust and effort, that he doesn't really know what he's talking about; and b) you don't need a 'b'.

7) Although he tries his utmost to hide the real details of his life from his premies, the truth is that he has likely wrestled with a drinking problem for years, is outrageously venal, has been repeatedly unfaithful to his wife and is something of an insecure petty tyrant to all who really know him. The carefully protected image you got was just that.

8) Maharaji knows that the truth is spoken here. That's why he has 'asked' his premies to avoid this page, to avoid talking about him on the net and why he's, to date, refused to answer any questions by any of those who once dedicated their lives to him in good faith.

When you say 'Whoever he is now it is his life and I hope he's living it' I wonder what in the world that means? He's not dead, you know. He IS living his life. The question is, how?

So, thee it is. People killed themselves over his program which fact, I repeat, he's never had the courage or common decency to address. I don't know what your standards are. Maybe you're the kind of guy who doesn't look below the surface. If so, that's fine. I certainly don't like people like that but what do you care?

On the other hand, maybe you're someone who cares a little more about things.

Anyway, there it is.
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Date: Mon, Jun 01, 1998 at 17:58:00 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Steven
Subject: My thoughts and feelings
Message:
Whoever he is now it is his life and I hope he's living it.

Steven, perhaps you can explain what this means. If this is all you require of BM, or of anyone else, I would submit that it is an extremely low standard. Who doesn't live their life? The question is, what kind of a life is it, who is hurt by it, and is it authentic or fake.
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Date: Mon, Jun 01, 1998 at 18:21:17 (EST)
From: Steven
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: My thoughts and feelings
Message:
Hello again

It seems my message was lost because of this line:
'Whoever he is now it is his life and I hope he's living it.'

The first part of this statement means to me, 'Judge not'
and for the second part, from what I recall of Maharaji, he taught me to live life from the heart.
If this is truly not so, I will open my heart even more to try
to understand.
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Date: Mon, Jun 01, 1998 at 18:49:17 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Steven
Subject: My thoughts and feelings
Message:
The first part of this statement means to me, 'Judge not'
and for the second part, from what I recall of Maharaji, he taught me to live life from the heart.
If this is truly not so, I will open my heart even more to try
to understand.


Steven,

I'm always interested when new people pop in here. Not just about wht they think about Maharaji but how they communciate it. Sometimes, as you might appreciate, it's hard as hell to get premies to actually discuss this stuff. Hve you noticed that?

So, I wonder, is this really all you've got to say to my answer to you? This is it? Can you imagine carrying on a live conversation like this? Do you think that this medium makes it easier to avoid peoples' facts and arguments? I do. You've got to be careful if you want to actually have a fair discussion. It's so easy to avoid things.

About 'judgment' I can only say this. We all judge constantly. Every last one of us judges everything and everybody of any consequence in our lives. Just like Maharaji constatnly judges the ways people can and do spend their time in life, the way he judges how people practice his 'teaching', the way he judges his eldest brothers who claim that Satpal's the guru in the family, not him. Maharaji judges it all.

And you, Steven? You judge it all too. Unfortunately, you also sound like you're stuck in some very silly, if common, new age ideas here. They mean nothing but then maybe that doesn't trouble you. Maybe you mean nothing. Maybe truth means nothnig to you. Maybe you're just a little new age puff cake floating on the river of life, getting heavier with water as you prepare your gradual descent to the bottom of the river, nothingness unto nothnigness and who gives a shit about anything, right?

I am so completely sick of this new age garbage talk. You don't 'live life from your heart' stupid. That's just an idiotic concept which, if you ever took the time to think about, you'd realize doesn't make sense. Right now -- yes, RIGHT NOW -- are you reading this from your mind or your heart? When you call me an 'asshole' for calling you stupid is that your heart or your mind? Quick! Which is it?

How old are you anyway?
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Date: Mon, Jun 01, 1998 at 23:48:59 (EST)
From: carol
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: My thoughts and feelings
Message:
Jim, I wish you'd stop calling names. Your points are good but your delivery sucks when you resort to childish name-calling! I am judging and I know it! Peace and love to you, and keep up the GOOD work! You are like the energizer bunny!
carol
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Date: Tues, Jun 02, 1998 at 00:43:24 (EST)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: carol
Subject: My thoughts and feelings
Message:
Personally, I like the name calling. It portrays spontaneity and realness, in contrast to the absurdity it's mocking. It's free expression. Can you imagine anything more annoying than a repressed Jim?
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Date: Tues, Jun 02, 1998 at 15:13:18 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: Rick
Subject: Rick
Message:
Dear Rick,
When I saw a Rick posting I wondered which Rick it was, there is some confusion that I may have missed the resolution to. Is your email something like rtardy or something, anyway as soon as I read your post I knew it was the Rick who helped me get over my negative reaction to all the name calling. Ask, I don't even comment on it any more, thanks! Hey are you the one who wrote that thing phrase:
If you love living and have some enthusiasm, all the rest is style!
That is my screen saver since I saw it posted, thanks for that too!
Robyn
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Date: Tues, Jun 02, 1998 at 19:01:39 (EST)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Rick
Message:
Hi Robyn,
Yeah, I think I inadvertantley helped you with the name calling aversion, but I don't remember saying that phrase. I think I'm the only Rick that's posted here for awhile. I do love name calling. I didn't read the birthday thread, but I assume it must've been your birthday, so Happy Belated Birthday.
Rick
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Date: Tues, Jun 02, 1998 at 00:25:03 (EST)
From: Pam
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: My thoughts and feelings
Message:
Jim, too bad that you think 'live life from the heart' has no meaning. I experience a marked difference when I'm living from my mind and living from my heart, and living from my heart is much more enjoyable (and it doesn't preclude thinking, analyzing, etc.) Do you know the difference? Do you feel? Do you have a heart? Just asking. Not everyone does. (Obviously, I'm not speaking about the literal physical heart.) Some people are 'heartless.' Maybe you're one of them. Could be you're one or two dimensional, figuratively speaking.
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Date: Tues, Jun 02, 1998 at 00:28:39 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: Pam
Subject: My thoughts and feelings
Message:
Pam it's funny you should say that because my interpretation of what M calls 'the heart' is not the feelings at all. In fact he has said he is not talking about the emotional heart, but rather as another word for soul.
So when you are in your soul, that sounds different doesn't it. It doesnt sound like something you can just do, can you?
And when you are there, and no-one else is, that's when it's so painful in this world, isn't it?
How do you deal with that? (an honest question-not criticizing you)
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Date: Tues, Jun 02, 1998 at 00:33:58 (EST)
From: Pam
Email: None
To: Judex
Subject: My thoughts and feelings
Message:
I see what you mean. It's a difference in semantics. To answer you question, yes, it is painful. As much as possible I seek out like-minded people, supportive environments, and spend time in nature and take time alone to connect with my heart and find that place of peace, love and gratitude that is so wonderful.
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Date: Tues, Jun 02, 1998 at 01:20:13 (EST)
From: charles
Email: None
To: Pam
Subject: your? thoughts and feelings
Message:
I have said this before, to George, but I will risk being redundant and say it again to you, Pam. Try seeking out people who do not agree with you or who are not agreeable. As a matter of fact go one step further and seek out people who are not only in disagreement with you but who are articulate, intelligent, learned, widely experienced, and who TRULY GIVE YOU PAUSE before you add one more shining brick to that lovely little edifice of calm and self assurance you are building at the expense of getting outside it and maybe seeing that there is a lot more to life than what you find agreeable. You may find it distressing but that is often the price of awakening from delusion.
Charles
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Date: Tues, Jun 02, 1998 at 01:39:27 (EST)
From: Sir David
Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com
To: charles
Subject: Right on, Charles!
Message:
Here here! Well said Charles. Very well said indeed.
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Date: Tues, Jun 02, 1998 at 02:06:48 (EST)
From: Joy
Email: None
To: Sir David
Subject: Right on, Charles!
Message:
Yes, I agree also, a very good point. Life isn't all sweetness and light; we need to get down to the nitty gritty sometimes, not just be constantly having 'that experience'. My Buddhist teacher had a slogan: 'Difficult people are your greatest teacher'. Liked that one a lot. We always tend to think of difficult people and situations as our 'enemy' and to be avoided at all costs, something the premies excel at. Just bundle it all up under the heading of 'mind' or 'maya' and turn your back on it all, run away to a program quick. Thing is, life doesn't turn its back on you! When M says 'enjoy your life' I interpret this to mean 'enjoy your life exclusive of having anything to do with anybody or anything else except your own experience, and always keep that going via gratitude to and remembrance of me'. Not very realistic, it's a simplisic and ultimately dangerous way of thinking, since, as David says, the experience is not really one of 'your life' but of cult involvement with a charismatic leader.
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Date: Tues, Jun 02, 1998 at 15:41:14 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: Joy
Subject: Right on, Charles!
Message:
Dear Joy,
Yes, and I think too that when we do face the not so nice and deal with it instead of buring or denying it that we grow. I avoided emotional 'pain' for years and got no where. Now that I have been working with it and getting through it I am a much more complete person, IMHO, and the journey continues...
Robyn
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Date: Tues, Jun 02, 1998 at 17:27:12 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Joy
Subject: Right on, Joy!
Message:
Very well said, Joy. You have obviously thought this through and it certainly makes sense.

Joy, when did you get to be such a mature, level-headed adult? Are you the same Joy who, freaked out by the cat-fights and general bitchiness in the sister's ashram, moved into one of the ashram's closets and used that as her private space? You've come a long way baby!
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Date: Tues, Jun 02, 1998 at 17:52:03 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: The ultimate outing
Message:
JW,

Is that all you guys think about?
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Date: Tues, Jun 02, 1998 at 18:02:53 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: The ultimate outing
Message:
Is that all you guys think about?

To what are you referring, Jim -- 'cat-fights,' 'general bitchiness,' 'sisters,' 'ashram,' or 'closet?'
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Date: Tues, Jun 02, 1998 at 18:08:33 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: The ultimate outing
Message:
closet
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Date: Tues, Jun 02, 1998 at 18:11:36 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: The ultimate outing
Message:
Well, I don't think much about it, but that's when Joy officially went into the closet -- I think it was around 1981. She wasn't in for very long, though.
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Date: Tues, Jun 02, 1998 at 18:18:14 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: The ultimate outing
Message:
Yeah, right! Look, I wsn't born yesterday. No one pulls the wool over my eyes, no one.
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Date: Wed, Jun 03, 1998 at 00:39:47 (EST)
From: Joy
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Closets
Message:
No, I am not gay, what Joe is referring to is my spell in the closet in the ashram in 1981. After more than eight years of ashram living I'd had enough of sharing bedrooms with up to six people and took over this large closet as my private sleeping/meditating/living space. Joe still thinks it's hilarious that I actually lived in a closet, but it was obviously time to take some personal space back and in this strange San Francisco ashram was an absolute luxury to have my own non-invadable space with a door that closed. When I decided to leave the ashram for good after about six months in the closet, it was readily occupied by somebody else, no doubt some sister needing some privacy also.
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Date: Wed, Jun 03, 1998 at 08:53:43 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: Joy
Subject: Closets
Message:
Dear Joy,
That is amazing! That you lived in a closet for 6 months and then that someone moved right in when you moved out! Also maybe you could communicate with eb's son who spends much of his time in the closet with his computer.
Robyn
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Date: Wed, Jun 03, 1998 at 12:35:56 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Joy
Subject: Closets
Message:
I DO still crack up when I think of you living in that closet. It was a pretty big closet, but it was funny to see your little foam mat set up in there. But I have no problem understanding why you would do it. The ashrams were hard enough to live in, but, and this may sound sexist, the sisters ashrams were particularly intense and I know they bad-vibed you on a regular basis because you weren't willing to put on the fake smile and pretend to always be a blissful premie. I recall this one sister Wendy (oh, my god!) was particularly put out by that. Who occupied the closet after you left?
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Date: Wed, Jun 03, 1998 at 13:40:37 (EST)
From: Joy
Email: Bluebirdd@aol.com
To: JW
Subject: Closets
Message:
Joe, want to know who occupied the closet immediately after I left?

Wendy!
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Date: Thurs, Jun 04, 1998 at 10:52:48 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Joy
Subject: In Defense of Closets
Message:
Joe's gonna think I'm picking on him again, but I knew A LOT of people who lived in closets in premie houses (and in group houses when I was a student, too.) Rent was high in the DC area, and we had to have lots of room-mates to be able to pay it. Plus we usually lived in old houses with big walk-in closets and other places where one could sleep (attics, basements, etc.) I shared a small room with two other women in one premie house, and even though they were very nice, I eventually moved into the very dank unfinished basement. (Of course, part of the reason for this was so I could have my boyfriend over - guess you guys didn't have THAT problem in the ashram!)
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Date: Tues, Jun 02, 1998 at 02:13:39 (EST)
From: charles
Email: None
To: Sir David
Subject: praises
Message:
Since you are singing the praises let me sing yours. I have never been better inspired to meditate than by you and what you share about and experience that is yours and yours alone. I guess I see it this way: You are a human being;that is, not the SATGURU or THE LORD OF ALL or THE SAVIOR or THE MESSIAH, ad naseaum and I can expect to experience, on my own, without your help which you are not offering by the way, what I do. I come to meditation now as an observer and nothing more. Thank you.
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Date: Tues, Jun 02, 1998 at 02:12:53 (EST)
From: carol
Email: None
To: charles
Subject: your? thoughts and feelings
Message:
I agree with you Charles. Sometimes the people who are the hardest to relate to and who challenge you are the best motivators for change. (I really do appreciate Jim's direct and spontaneous manner among other honest people here, including you.)
carol
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Date: Tues, Jun 02, 1998 at 02:29:19 (EST)
From: charles
Email: None
To: carol
Subject: thoughts and feelings
Message:
I assure you, Carol, that I have never gotten the impression of you that i was not hearing your feelings and your thoughts instead of some dim impression of same peeking through a blanket of glowing generalities. Thank you. And I appreciate Jim too. He encourages me to think hard and clear. And this is not heartless in my definition of heart. I think of heart as courage rather than some wonderland. I have never gotten a pastel image from you. It was in this fray, as some premies call it, that I first learned to question my attitude to meditation and change it from one of blind adherence to one of 'what is going on here, what is really going on here?'
Charles
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Date: Tues, Jun 02, 1998 at 02:39:11 (EST)
From: carol
Email: coopmtncarol@hotmail.com
To: charles
Subject: thoughts and feelings
Message:
Charles,
Hey, we're almost together in real time! I tend to stay up a bit late sometimes. I guess it's an hour later in CO than OR. I am making progress, as you are to disconnect negative associations from meditation. Feel free to e-mail me if you ever want to.
carol
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Date: Tues, Jun 02, 1998 at 01:31:34 (EST)
From: Sir David
Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com
To: Pam
Subject: My thoughts and feelings
Message:
I meditate, I experience the rest within. It does not feel painful spending my life with people who don't meditate. Whatever you are meditating on that seperates people into different catagories, well I want no part of that.

I would say you are meditating on a group consciousness or a cult. Yes, then it is painful to mix with us ordinary people who are not a part of that. Jim Heller has meditated. He knows what the peace is like. What's the big deal. You are in a cult but cannot see it. People on the outside can see it.

A cult seperated people. Some simple meditation wouldn't do that. I have found nothing painful in feeling the rest behind my breath, in seeing light. There is nothing there to seperate me from anyone I know. And I know no premies. (Except on the Net)

I see how a delusion can be created by a group with the master at the helm. I've seen it all and in the end, what was there? None of it was real. It was all froth and bubble. All endless words and sound bites. In the end there was just me and my breath and the light in a most relaxed state sitting in my living room. All the endless words and guru drama was nothing at all. It all amounts to very little indeed. Of no consequence to anyone except for those who follow the cult.

Do you love and care about those people around you, old and young. Would you put yourself out for them and worry about them or does your guru take first place? Some premies think they have a monopoly on love. How wrong. How very, very wrong but you cannot see this because your minds are fixed firmly on the guru and within the confines of the cult thinking. I can see it now. Perhaps you're different, perhaps you're not afraid of being human. I hope so.
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Date: Tues, Jun 02, 1998 at 02:31:06 (EST)
From: carol
Email: None
To: Sir David
Subject: My thoughts and feelings
Message:
Sir David, (I like that name and all the other cheesy ones!)
I thank you for helping me realize that my involvement with M and knowledge was truly a cult.
There was a 20/20 news show on tv tonight about a large and growing (cult) church which attracts people from all over the world to Pensicola,Florida. It is a Evangelical Revivalist church where in sessions of 5-6 hours at a time, people get worked up to an emotional frenzy singing praises and being called forward as sinners to repent. The minister, a self-admitted former heroin addict, alcoholic, and thief goes around touching people and saying 'Down' and they fall into a swoon or shake all over. They want some 'brave' politicians to take a stand to allow Christian prayer and counselling in American public schools. Someone wrote recently that the word 'evangelist' can be reordered to spell 'evils agent'. That's what I thought watching this show!
carol
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Date: Tues, Jun 02, 1998 at 15:27:58 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: carol
Subject: My thoughts and feelings
Message:
Dear Carol,
I saw that same piece last night! That girl who was in the car with her dad after attending 1 meeting and she started shaking in the car and she told him she was feelilng the holy spirt. Why would the holy spirit give you girations (sp?). I seems like it would give you peace and calm! I also have always had a problem with fanatical Christians! Hope that doesn't offend anyone. I don't know if you, Joy and bb consider yourselves in that catagory and I enjoy you both but it is just a fact that my past has brought me to.
Robyn
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Date: Tues, Jun 02, 1998 at 22:29:40 (EST)
From: carol
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: My thoughts and feelings
Message:
No Way! The only gyrations around here are from my little Tourette(r).
carol
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Date: Wed, Jun 03, 1998 at 00:49:17 (EST)
From: Joy
Email: Bluebirdd@aol.com
To: Robyn
Subject: My thoughts and feelings
Message:
No way, Robyn, no Charismatic Christian here. All that mumbo-jumbo seems totally strange to me. But now that we're on the subject, there's a friend of mine in Ireland, ex-premie from the 70s also, who told me about a phenomenon which was happening to the premies in Ireland in the late 70s, I forget exactly when, which was similar to the Charismatic Christians. These premies, during satsang, would start to shake, and go into some sort of trance, often for quite long periods of time, and remember nothing of it afterwards. There might have been some spinning going on, also, though not sure about that, can't remember what I was told. Apparently it was quite widespread, and even happened to my friend, who's otherwise a quite sane and non-crazy type of person. Anybody else acquainted with this type of thing happening during satsang? My sister, who's a Fundamentalist Christian, thinks it was possession by devils, but she thinks just about everything's that, but I have no explanation. (I don't see how it could any more be possession by devils than, say, the gyrations of the Pentacostalists or those who 'speak in tongues' -- if that isn't strange, I don't know what is.) But this is the only time I've ever heard of this in relation to BM. Are there any ex-es out there in Ireland online who can confirm anything about this???
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Date: Tues, Jun 02, 1998 at 01:57:26 (EST)
From: John Hammond-Smyth
Email: padded.cell@asylum.com
To: Pam
Subject: Hearts of stone
Message:
All these ex-premies are heartless. They cannot see the love that is obvious to anyone with a heart. Maharaji loves them all and the door is always open but these hard hearted ex-premies are too stupid, nay blind to the Lord of Love.

Premies were the most loving, saintly and caring people I've ever known. They were pure reflections of the love that Maharaji is. Four thousand people died this week in Afghanistan, during the earthquake. I bet Maharaji and Marolyn will be on the scene, dispensing their love and care to those poor people. Bholey Shri Sat Guru Dev Maharaj Ki Jai!!!
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Date: Tues, Jun 02, 1998 at 02:46:16 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: John Hammond-Smyth
Subject: Hearts of stone
Message:
John H.S.,

You are the first premie in a long time taht truly pierces my armour. Please, brother, tell me, has he kept my bedroom set up as I left it? Can I go home now?
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Date: Tues, Jun 02, 1998 at 11:07:07 (EST)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: John Hammond-Smyth
Subject: Hearts of stone
Message:
Four thousand people died this week in Afghanistan, during the earthquake. I bet Maharaji and Marolyn will be on the scene, dispensing their love and care to those poor people. Bholey Shri Sat Guru Dev Maharaj Ki Jai!!!

Yes, John, isn't it wonderful how BM and Durga Ji visit all the tragic scenes around the world. Often, in the past, you could see BM and Durga Ji, on the news, visiting injured people in the hospital. Sometimes Lady Di was there, too.

I heard that BM and Durga Ji distribute much money, food, and supplies at these scenes. Is that really true? Amazing how generous and charitable BM is; people always think he keeps the money for himself and the growth of his organization.
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Date: Tues, Jun 02, 1998 at 14:37:51 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Pam
Subject: My thoughts and feelings
Message:
Hello Pam,

I think the problem with the words 'living from the heart' is not so much that it has NO meaning, but rather that whatever meaning it has is so subjective that it's impossible to talk about. Does it mean living an emotional life? Does is mean living an empathetic life? Does it mean having compasion and love for others and 'the earth?' What does it mean?

I think BM uses that term in such a vague way, that anyone can attach absolutely any meaning to it. It also engenders this idea that SOME people live from the heart and some don't, like there is some big distinction between people on that basis. I reject that catagorically as false.

Frankly, I think BM's telling premies to 'live from the heart' is just his new-age, mumbo-jumbo-speak for what he used to call NOT being in your MIND. It's sounds nice and is perhaps more relatable to people that villifying the mind, like he used to do constantly for years, but it IS essentially meaningless. Words are important and the way BM gets away with attaching meaning to something that is really trite and meaningless is kind of outrageous. The fact that premies let him get away with it is even more outrageous.

For example, the way BM talks about 'that love,' 'that joy,' 'that peace,' 'that beautiful place,' etc., etc., and the other litany of 'thats' makes it sound like he is talking about something meaningful and specific, when in reality he is just talking about the regular, orginary nice feelings people have, and then he takes credit for them. Again, the fact that premies give him credit for them is pretty outrageous, because there is no objective evidence that any of the good stuff people experience in their lives is due to him, and they sustain such thinking by suspending independent thinking and judgment, feeling that by doing so they are 'living from the heart.' I think they also get a slight feeling of superiority to other, supposedly 'non-heart-living' people as a result.
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Date: Tues, Jun 02, 1998 at 15:42:25 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Just wishful thinking,no?
Message:
Yes, JW, I concur with all you say.

The other day we got a new VCR and, in order to try it out, I put in that Maharaji Long Beach video you and I both have (thanks Deena!). I didn't want to risk any other tape (like 5 year old 'Married with Children' my girlfriend's kid might have taped). So there he was in all his glory.

When I first hear premies talk about the incredible love they felt I wanted to cry. It was so alluring. I remember sitting on the carpet, not really sure what to make of the multi-tiered altar with a very regular looking Indian family on it. But some of these people. The look in their eyes. A times they actually did cry as they explained in the most superlative possible words how they'd been given 'that' thing. How the bible offered the best test, the only test that mattered, 'By his fruits ye shall know him'. How they had tasted that fruit. Maharaji had shown them God, no if's and's or but's.

Let's face it -- we're not well-programmed to fight off bullshit. Any of us are susceptible to con men. Even the most sophisticated businessmen, people who pride themselves on mainting a healthy screening system, who know all the right questions to ask and tricks to watch out for, sometimes get taken. Maybe they forget that one crucial bit of proof to ask for, maybe they just drop their guard. Maybe the cons get slicker. Whatever, we know anyone can be fooled anytime. (Hey, premies, Mahraji thought his family was with hi all the way, didn't he?).

So tell me, what are the chances for an 18-year-old kid in 1972 in a set up like that? All I knew was that meditation was the newest, coolest thing to have infiltrated our culture. Plus, it was 'ancient' and 'powerful'. My dad was a businessman, fuck taht shit. This was what life ws really all about!

So then you're sitting there listening to people talk as if they were the most hoenst people in the world. Exagerration? Oh my God, I told myself, how could I be so cynical? Hadn't I heard about the open mind, no make that 'open heart' of the guileless child? It came down to this: did I want purity or not? If not, fine, there's the door. Good luck in the world. As Maharaji said, he wasn't slamming any doors. His would always be open. But really, where else could I ever hope to find the 'secret of the heart'?

I HATE that heart talk! All it is is a sideswipe at critical thinking. Pam, next time a salesperson puts the moves on you go ahead, put your money where your mouth is and deal with him from your heart. Ha! Sucker. That's called 'buying something'?

And tell me, Pam, as a woman growing up or even now if you're single, in the most intimate venue of all, romance, do you 'live from your heart'? Or do you carefully scrutinize your feelings and try to understand exactly what you want, according to what you want yourself to want, standards, goals, that kind of thing. We all have impulses, we all have trigger responses. Someone talks about 'love', it reminds us of love, makes us relax. Someone talks about 'trust', it reminds us of trust, makes us relax.

Maharaji is a real one-trick pony. Watching him last night I just kill myself for never calling him on anything. At 19 I was smarter than him -- he was only 16 for God's sake! Yet I let him rule me like a slave. I threw myself at him and begged for him to save me from the world.

Why do I treat the premies with such disdain? Because you guys refuse to honour at least my basic life experience. And my common sense. All in the name of 'love'. You know what? I'm beginning to think that premies don't know the first thing about love. Now what an irony that would be, eh?
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Date: Tues, Jun 02, 1998 at 17:55:37 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Just wishful thinking,no?
Message:
Right, Jim. BM has been doing his stage performance since he was about 2. 38 years of saying the same meaningless drivel of platitudes, with a lot of revisionism about who he is and what he is about over the last 12 years or so. And he doesn't ever get questioned about anything he does or says. That would tend to make one speak with a lot of confidence, if not perhaps with some articulation.

For me, I think when I was getting involved with BM in 1973, I had become disillusioned with the Catholic Church, social movements, and questioning my place in the world. Everything I had been working for was about to come true. I didn't know if I could live that kind of life. BM offered an alternative, the ultimate truth, and the perfect altruism -- helping to give the world what it REALLY needed. And it was so simple and easy. He was all-powerful, the living god, and would take care of everything. And then, of course, I was CHOSEN, to receive knowledge, by the mahatma who had divine powers to see the sincerity I had, that even I couldn't see, and so I felt graced and privileged. And I wanted so much for it to be true, and the premies were sincere, so what could I do but go for it? And I am, I admit, a kind of 'all-or-nothing' kind of person, so I felt, as BM said, I had to dedicated myself to it 100% before I would really know if it was real or not and to have the true experience. Hence, I, unlike George who ignored what he said, I took BM literally, moved into the ashram, and all the rest.

And this, of course, was due to that fact that BM did the 'bait-and-switch' and began screaming about 100% devotion and surrender to HIM as the true purpose and point of his path, and not the 'try-it-you'll-like-it' come-on he had used at the beginning.

Yes, I think people are gullible, because, basically, people are sincere and want to be happy. What is despicable is that people like BM take advantage of that for their own, selfish, ends.

You know, Jim, the only times I really start to feel angry about what BM did to me is when I remember back to that 19 year old sincerely asking for knowledge and the place I was in at the time and how my sincerity got used. That's when I get pissed off at what a arrogant bastard Maharaji really is.
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Date: Tues, Jun 02, 1998 at 18:07:49 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Raja Ji has an answer
Message:
You know, Jim, the only times I really start to feel angry about what BM did to me is when I remember back to that 19 year old sincerely asking for knowledge and the place I was in at the time and how my sincerity got used. That's when I get pissed off at what a arrogant bastard Maharaji really is.

You know, Joe, it's too bad you weren't at that meeting I had with Raja Ji. He DOES have an answer and amybe I should have taken him up on it. You might recall I mentioned that there were a couple of instructors in Mailbu then -- some of the Euro guys, I think -- who were, as he put it, 'really good' at helping premies work through some of their questions.

Who knows where'd you be now if you'd made it through that 'difficult' passage?

May the grace flood through the streets of San Francisco and give you a couple of days off work with pay!
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Date: Tues, Jun 02, 1998 at 18:21:27 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Raja Ji has an answer
Message:
You might recall I mentioned that there were a couple of instructors in Mailbu then -- some of the Euro guys, I think -- who were, as he put it, 'really good' at helping premies work through some of their questions.

I remember you saying that Raja Ji told you this, but I have never understood what the fuck it meant. First of all, the eurotrash initiators, with a couple of notable exceptions, were mentally challenged and I doubt they could make a good case here. Obviously Raja Ji was too stupid to to it, or he could have told you himself.

Secondly, it sounds like Raja Ji was suggesting talking to someone who might supply you with a really good rationalization about how you really weren't ripped off, despite your own personal experience, or about how it was really good to get ripped off, you know, all for the best in the long run.

No, thank you.
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Date: Tues, Jun 02, 1998 at 18:36:33 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Raja Ji has an answer
Message:
Yes, 'really good to get ripped off'. That was it. Funny how sometimes the truth's just under our nose and we never see it, huh?
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Date: Tues, Jun 02, 1998 at 22:44:23 (EST)
From: carol
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Raja Ji has an answer
Message:
Jim, I'd say I think you are great, but I wouldn't want to be accused of stroking the ego of 'the biggest fish in this small pond'! Oh well, what the hell (as my mother used to say) You're great! Going to join Gerry and his wife and I at the Seattle program? Joy is going to be gone on vacation.
carol
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Date: Thurs, Jun 04, 1998 at 03:55:16 (EST)
From: carol
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Jim,talking to you here
Message:
See adjacent post.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 04, 1998 at 10:39:58 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: carol
Subject: sorry, thought I'd answered
Message:
Carol,

Yeah, for sure. I'd love to meet up with you guys but I want to see what kind of reply I get from Linda Gross first. You know? I mean I guess I could just go to a program and sit there but wouldn't you want to maybe get a bit more interactive than that? Besides, I think I'd have a hard time explaining myself to certain people (like me, for instance) when I say that 'Maharaji doesn't answer questions' if I don't answer them. On the other hand, I don't want to just get tossed out either. So, like I say, I'm waiting to see what kind of response I get. Then we'll decide.

But it would be fun maybe jsut to go nonetheless. Hell, I don't know.
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Date: Tues, Jun 02, 1998 at 22:35:06 (EST)
From: carol
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Well said JW!
Message:
I have used that reference before, but it really is subjective and relative to experience, so will reconsider using it without being more specific. carol
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Date: Tues, Jun 02, 1998 at 15:16:29 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Pam
Subject: My thoughts and feelings
Message:
Dear Pam,
Have you been lurking long, I don't think so or you'd know Jim is about 12 demensional! Yes he can be like a prickly pear cactus on the outside but just read his posts over the long run and you'll see he has a huge heart although he may not want anyone to see it.
Robyn
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Date: Mon, Jun 01, 1998 at 10:39:50 (EST)
From: bftb
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: DOC is not M
Message:
It seems that several people on this forum still think that DOC may be M.In my opinion there's no way he's M and furthermore the idea that M would post here is wishful thinking I'm afraid.I doubt that M has ever even lurked here.More then likely someone who works for him will occasionally monitor the site and report back to him (or more likely his attorney) if there's anything written here that they feel could be actionable,or pose a threat.

As useful as this forum is,I doubt that it concerns M to any real degree.Don't kid yourselves.
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Date: Mon, Jun 01, 1998 at 13:36:50 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: bftb
Subject: DOC is not M
Message:
bftb,

Yeah that's a good question, isn't it? I wonder just how much sleep, if any, M has lost over this site. You might be absolutely right that it phases him not but I'm not so sure. What about his 'negative advertising' about it at Miami (I really wish someone would explain exactly what he said there)? Or how about this -- Maharaji might, at some point, have considered using the web himself despite what he says about it. We've beat him to it and now he has to leave a standing orders with all of his premies to not search for his name should they happen to be online. Worse, he has to explain to them what's out there that he doesn't want them to look at!

And then think about some of the stuff that's been said abvout him here -- the allegations of infidelity, alcoholism and worse. When his liackeys report to him do they give him details? If they do how do they say it? (I'd love to be there for one of those meetings. 'Maharaji, someone on that ex-premie site is saying that Pranam Bai told them that Marolyn said she'd have left you years ago if it weren't for the money.') I don't know. I think his ears must be burning.
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Date: Tues, Jun 02, 1998 at 00:41:40 (EST)
From: Pam
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: DOC is not M
Message:
Hey Jim, how come you're always saying, 'Would someone tell me what he said?' Why rely on other people's takes? Why not just go to a program in your vicinity and check it out for yourself? So much you're relying on past history and other people's reports. You sound like an empiracist. Why not do your own research? Judge for yourself. And then report your impressions on the site from a first-hand standpoint. It won't kill you to go and listen. You won't even have to pay for a seat.
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Date: Tues, Jun 02, 1998 at 02:33:15 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Pam
Subject: DOC is not M
Message:
Pam,

An 'empiricist'? Oh no! That's the worst thing anyone's ever called me. Two-dimensional or not, I hurt, Pam. Thanks a lot :(
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Date: Mon, Jun 01, 1998 at 06:52:15 (EST)
From: Richard
Email: r2harris@plymouth.ac.uk
To: Everyone
Subject: Dates for Journey
Message:
Dear All,

in a genuine attempt to write my Journey I find the chronology a little hard to recall..time between events..order etc.

Like I know where I was but not always when. If anyone can email me a list of festivals with their approx dates (month/year) I would be very grateful. I will help me sort some missing years.

Anyone else have this sort of problem?

Regards

Richard
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Date: Mon, Jun 01, 1998 at 10:01:09 (EST)
From: been there done that
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Dates for Journey
Message:
I have the same problem. Reading this site helps.
Here's an incomplete list:
Hans Jayanti 1972 (November) was in India.
Guru Puja (July) 1973 was in London at the Ally Pally.
Hans Jayanti 1973 was Millenium in Houston Texas.
Guru Puja 1974 or 1975 ? was in Amherst Massachussets.
Hans Jayanti 1974 was in Toronto Canada
Hans Jayanti 1975 was in Orlando Florida
Guru Puja 1976 was in Providence Rhode Island?
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Date: Mon, Jun 01, 1998 at 10:33:49 (EST)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: been there done that
Subject: Dates for Journey
Message:
Thanks for that. I'll take anymore that people can offer, particularly European dates.

Richard
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Date: Mon, Jun 01, 1998 at 23:37:37 (EST)
From: carol
Email: None
To: been there done that
Subject: Dates for Guru Puja Amherst
Message:
Guru Puja in Amherst was '74 for sure! M had recently married and Durga Ji was on stage with him. (My red Volks bug that I drove there with my 5 yr old and the Community director was stolen, at a motel and we had to ride the bus home to Portland OR!!!It was found with a blown rod or something later.)
carol
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Date: Mon, Jun 01, 1998 at 17:14:12 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: Richard
Subject: Dates for Journey
Message:
Dear Richard,
Sorry, no help here for the dates you are looking for just a comment that I can't remember, and don't even make an attempt, to date things that happened before I had children. I remember things by how old they were. The rest is a blur and I've learned to accept it.
Robyn

I was also interested in commenting on your post about your wife's illness and her not understanding your need to be here. I just wondered if this site helps you, with the support, commradary(sp?), and input from so many view points, that it lets up on the stresses you have from your day to day life and/or from the unresolved things from your time with BM? If this is the case your wife is benifiting from a kinder, gentler, more relaxed, Richard. Sorry you probably didn't recognise that kinder, gentler statement as a pet phrase of a US president. I just thought it fit in well there.
Hope you are well.
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Date: Tues, Jun 02, 1998 at 11:23:51 (EST)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Yes, Yes and Yes..
Message:
Dear Robyn,

I think that I benefit from all kinds of responses and this place is the most responsive place I know.

My wife is so beaten down from her illness that she has little energy left for things that don't directly connect to her. But I am buoyed up by the kind words from you and everyone else. It is also comforting to know that others share the somewhat precarious position of being a carer.

This forum helps me in every aspect of my life, most of all by helping me to enjoy being me.

Thanks as always

Richard
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Date: Mon, Jun 01, 1998 at 06:05:05 (EST)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Krishnamurti
Message:
Quote from Jiddu Krishnamurti; 'There is no path to truth, it must come to you. Truth can come to you only when your mind and heart are simple, clear, and there is love in your heart; not if your heart is filled with the things of the mind. When there is love in your heart, you do not talk about organizing for brotherhood; you do not talk about belief, you do not talk about division or the powers that create division, you need not seek reconciliation. Then you are simply a human being without a label, without a country. This means that you must strip yourself of all those things and allow truth to come into being; and it can come only when the mind is empty, when the mind ceases to create. Then it will come without your invitation. Then it will come as swiftly as the wind and unbeknown. It comes obscurely, not when you are watching, wanting. It is there as sudden as sunlight, as pure as the night; but to receive it, the heart must be full and the mind empty. Now you have the mind full and your heart empty.'

from The Book of Life:
Daily Meditations with J. Krishnamurti (August_1)
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Date: Mon, Jun 01, 1998 at 14:38:06 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: Why I don't like Krishnamurti
Message:
Krishnamurti has always struck me as a major hypocrite. He was picked as a child to be the 'avatar' (sound familiar) and then, to his credit, renounced the whole scam before his twenties. Great. He'd deserve some real credit if that was where things ended, if he'd made his one' there are no paths' speech and took off, maybe went back to school, got a job. You know.

Instead, he creates a whole lifelong careeer out of rehashing his glorious moment in which he 'courageously' admitted that he was not God. Well, I guess that beats becoming an engineer or pharmaceutical sales rep. Easier anyway.

I've never found anything interesting in any of his writings. Indeed, I used to listen to him on late night radio in L.A. What an arrogant windbag! Really, these long, dramatic pauses pepper his every pronouncement as he again and again tries to set the world straight. 'Don't listen to me', he says 'listne to yourself'. Yerah, thanks bub, now will you please shut up already?
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Date: Mon, Jun 01, 1998 at 23:13:17 (EST)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Why I don't like Krishnamurti
Message:
Krishnamurti renounced his 'avatar' role and the organization when he was either 33 or 34 , not in his twenties as you said.
What a wasted life he had ...eh? ...when he could have been an engineer.....or a chef....or a criminal lawyer!!!!
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Date: Mon, Jun 01, 1998 at 23:17:45 (EST)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: you don't like Krishnamurti
Message:
Sorry, You said 'before his twenties'.
Even further out !
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Date: Tues, Jun 02, 1998 at 00:13:05 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: different strokes
Message:
Hi Keith, I really enjoyed reading that quote you posted. I found it very helpful to how I was feeling last night when I read it. I had a lot of pain in me due to a lot of things, mostly accumulations of unresolved problems/issues in my life.

You know that time when you look at the big picture and see that yes, that piece of the jigsaw is still there, and that there, and you wonder if you will ever change some things you'd like to see change?

Then I just realised that all this pain was coming from my mind (as per what Krishnamurti said). It may not be true, but it sure made me feel better. I even tried to practice for a short time, and then I fell asleep. Today the same situations are there but I can see them in a different perspective, and as soon as I felt better about myself, they don't seem like such terrible problems that are all my fault or that I have to fix.

But I must say, I need my mind to tell me what's going on. I need it for sure. And if I ever solve those problems, it will be because my mind kept reminding me they still exist. I just need to be able to master my thoughts sometimes, and tell them to lie down.

I don't agree that one can necessarily be 'in one's heart' and not in one's head, but I do believe in quietening the mind sometimes so that other parts of the self can have their say. (and it's not what M is teaching. It's not a religion that I want.)
Thanks
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Date: Wed, Jun 03, 1998 at 16:19:05 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Judex
Subject: different strokes
Message:
Dear Judex,
Sometimes your pain just has me wanting to hold you, a big hug! It wouldn't solve all those problems, I know but I have found compassion and empathy from friends to be a great source of strength for me. Most of my dear friends here don't know this part of me, that I share here as I am a different 'animal' than most I encounter in this area but they still love and support me. I must say that they know I post here but the idea has their heads shaking a bit. As I've said before they find all my oddities endearing god bless them! I hope you have some people that you trust and feel close to who can give you a real hug and love you for who you are as you are a very thoughtful person trying hard to better, herself and I can relate to that!
Robyn
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Date: Wed, Jun 03, 1998 at 16:10:07 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Keith
Subject: Krishnamurti
Message:
Dear Keith,
I like the poetic sound of what you posted here but in actuality how could it be. No man is an island, what about that quote? How could anyone stay in the state described in your post unless the goal of humanity is to wander with no thoughts or attachments so truth will come to them. Maybe I missed a big point of this statement, wouldn't be the first time. Please explain.
Robyn
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Date: Thurs, Jun 04, 1998 at 05:12:01 (EST)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Krishnamurti's quote
Message:
Robyn,
Are we not islands on one level .....islands that meet....strangers in the night.....passing ships.....we are individual souls.
And on another level we are WE.....all one ......at-one(atone)
....a community.....chips off the old block......rays emanating from father sun and mother moon.
And is it not true that often when letting go , something happens.......an apple falls ...and, bingo ...there's the answer!
Of course there is a grand place for analytical, critical, discursive thinking.....my god , I love exercising my neurons , but I also know that a power greater than mind(unless one refers to the mind of god )is able to enter in to the silent space if I allow and invite it to.
Truth does come to us if we surrender some of our egocentric possessiveness and identification.
I love the mystery of this amazing existence and creation.
There is fear.....because the mystery is so infinite and unknown ....like deep space....like meeting a totally alien reality .....like realising that one is not in control after all.
But again and again I am conforted by a Grace that informs me that THE POWER sustaining my existence is loving .
CONSCIOUSNESS ....TRUTH....AND BLISS......our destiny!
Can we dare to embrace THE TRUTH?
I want to be conscious.
Maharaji is one of many who have echoed back to me my own greatest aspiration.
Now I choose to stand as alone as I can ....and at the same time enjoy the communion with other beings who aspire also (dare also) to reach out for whatever the great mystery offers.
Warm regards, Keith
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Date: Thurs, Jun 04, 1998 at 08:31:59 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: Keith
Subject: Krishnamurti's quote
Message:
Dear Keith,
My god that was breath takingly beautiful! Thank you. Of course I agree with what you said here. I guess I misunderstood your original post in that I thought the goal was to have an empty mind all the time. It seemed to me like for truth to come to you, which is a concept I could relate to, it had to be a total acceptance and thus a constantly empty mind.
Thank you again for a wonderful start to my day.
Robyn
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Date: Thurs, Jun 04, 1998 at 10:47:42 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: Perversity
Message:
I read something really neat last night in an article in 'Free Inquiry'. It was an article comparing the contributions science and religion have made to our understanding of life. The author pointed out that, whereas science seeks the real explanations for otherwise mysterious phenomena, and thus looks for simplicity to explain the complex, religion does the opposite, offering an even more mysterious explanation (God, mysticism, etc.) to explain the simpler natural phenomena of life. Thus religion, as much fun as it is, is perverse. I liked that.

Keith, you say you want to be 'conscious'. But are you just embracing mystery for its own sake or do you really want to understand the world as best you can?
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Date: Thurs, Jun 04, 1998 at 19:51:08 (EST)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: Jim, Robyn and all
Subject: Diversity
Message:
I will start a new thread above in a while.
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Date: Sun, May 31, 1998 at 21:07:32 (EST)
From: D. Katz
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: a question for doc
Message:
How do you think maharaji feels about playing the role
of master?
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Date: Mon, Jun 01, 1998 at 09:11:32 (EST)
From: DOC
Email: None
To: D. Katz
Subject: a question for doc
Message:
Honestly, I don't know what M, or anyone else for that matter feel. I would venture a guess, though, and that is he sees it as a privaledge(?), a way to express thanks to HIS M. Service to his teacher. This is only a guess.

DOC
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Date: Mon, Jun 01, 1998 at 13:54:46 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: DOC
Subject: Another question for doc
Message:
Doc,

Here's another:

How do you think Maharaji considers his eldest brother, Satpal? Satpal has also started a 'ministry' in the name of their father and claims to be just following in dad's steps of teaching the true knowledge to the ignorant but thirsty masses. What do you think Maharaji thinks about that?
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Date: Sun, May 31, 1998 at 17:55:53 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: The MIND!! -- an insight
Message:
Last night I thought of something. Kind of obvious to some, perhaps, but well, bear with me. I think it's kind of neat.

1) M definitely considered his Holy Family members to be 'realized' like him. If Knowledge was a path, as he explained so often, they were far down it. I specifically recall him saying (maybe at Guru Puja '73 in London) that, if anything ever happened to him, any one of them could take his place.

2) Bal Bhagwan Ji (Satpal), Bhole Ji and mum all split and renounced him as a phony in '74.

3) If M was right about there being anything like a 'path of realization' and, if he was right about his family's advancement, and IF M is NOT a phony, there could only be one possible explanation for their defection: THE EVIL MIND!.
(In fact this was one of the only two possible explanations premies could consider back then. The other was tath th4e whole family was united in testing the devotees -- lila -- like never before).

So ther's the quandry and I'd really like (i.e. I dare) any premie to try to resolve this one. Either the family was NOT incredibly spiritually realized like Maharaji thought or they were and got blind-sided by a rush of the evil mind.

If the former's right, then the situation does indeed stand for waht we thought it did 25 years ago: a sobering, ideed chilling, reminder of how treacherous the mind is. 'Lord, have mercy! Even your loving family in all their advanced spiritual greatness could fall irreparably in an instant!'

If the latter's right, then it shows in the most profound and incontravertible way that Maharaji is a fraud. He claimed to be a 'master' of this path to perfection which may have been murky and confusing for us but which he, in his perfection, was able to see from beginning to .... infinity. If that's not true, then he clearly doesn't know shit.

Now, if THAT's the case -- that is, that Maharaji doesn't know what he's talking about -- that's the end of the story. Full stop. Cancel your order for the latest mugs and send back the last video if you haven't paid for it yet. I can't see any premie agreeing with this possibility.

That just leaves the other. Fine, let's be clear then on what the mind has to be in order for Maharaji to be anything other than a fraud. The mind has to be a very threatening, demonic force of darkness. How bad? Bad enough to take a loving mother, already fully realized in the bliss and purity of the holiest Knowledge, to turn on her son, her guru for god's sake, in an instant. Scary huh?

So fuck all you revisionist premies who've tried to sell the easy-going version of the life I knew as a premie. When the family bolted we were all PETRIFIED that any one of us could fall next. Really, who could feel safe after that? And how did Maharaji play it? He just did what he always did -- used it as one more reason for us to beg him to save us.
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Date: Mon, Jun 01, 1998 at 01:33:39 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Hopefully clearer explanation
Message:
Sorry, that was a bit confusing. Let me try again.

1) M says that -- and acts as if -- the family is 'high'.

2) Family denounces him.

3) Either the family's kidding ('lila') and it's all a test or they're serious.

4) After a few years, the lila possiblity's out the window. Aftter mom dies and Satpal starts calling himself Guru Maharaji Ji, forget about it. That leaves one possible inference: the family was serious.

5) If they defected from M and, for argument's sake one assumes that M was the real thing, they must have been either a) never high to begin with or b) hijacked by their minds.

6) If they were never high to begin with, Maharaji didn't know what he was talking about when he said they were high.

7) If they were high but just fell big-time to their treacherous minds, then the mind is a very frightening entity, capable of dropping even the highest in seconds.

8) We premies lived with only two possibilities: either they weren't serious or the last one, the mind got them. We never voiced the lila one after a few weeks or months. Instead we saw the family as a stark reminder of how no one, absolutely no one was safe from the mind.

Okay, that's it. This is just proof for those who weren't there or who may have forgotten that we lived in mortal fear of our minds. Any premie who says otherwise either can't remember, didn't really play Maharaji's game or is lying.
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Date: Mon, Jun 01, 1998 at 13:57:53 (EST)
From: charles
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Mind, jumping to conclusions
Message:
While I was living in the ashram I retired one day in an emotional upheaval, the source of which I cannot recall, to the meditation room. I began to do 'word' meditation. After crying some I fell asleep for a short time. When I awakened I knew IT was gone. I looked up to see IT all around me and witness IT descend upon me very swiftly. I even covered my head with my arms. I, of course, presumed at the time that what I had seen was THE MIND and persisted in that belief for the next 26 years. It was one of the bases of doubt about the wisdom of simply bailing on this whole thing and moving on. There are others with even less foundation when one examines them but they too have persisted as reasons to retain a superstitious belief in something that really has no other reason to exist in my thinking and feeling. I'm just shaking my head. God I must have been desperate. Under any other circumstances I would have merely chalked this little experience up to experience and not much of that.
Charles
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Date: Tues, Jun 02, 1998 at 00:21:16 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: charles
Subject: Mind, jumping to conclusions
Message:
Yes I'm wondering if you did what I think I just talked about in the Krishnamurti post above. I felt emotional pain, told myself it was in my mind, and felt better (and practiced for a short while).

This is because the pain I was feeling was quite intense, the sort that tells you to give up because you're never going to get anything right and you have fucked up your own life and your loved ones' too.

Well I know I can't reason with painful feelings like that. That's the point of this post, anyway, are they thoughts or feelings? I think now, they're feelings. If I had someone who loved me to tell me it was all ok, and not to judge me, that would be pretty good (but I guess in real life loved ones don't always do that anyway). I sort of understood more why I chose a god in a picture on the wall, a god inside, who I could address through another personage within called maharaji.

I think following M has kept me away from creating more love in my life by keeping me free from engaging with others and dealing with my feelings. I would just rush off to a video if I felt like that, or pray to him for help, etc.

Gee, life is sometimes painful, I feel I just have to face that fair and square, and there's no promise of heaven afterwards, and why should there be? A lot of my problems come from avoiding just living life the way it's here to be realistically done, I am thinking/feeling (finking? theeling?) now. What say you?
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Date: Tues, Jun 02, 1998 at 02:04:16 (EST)
From: charles
Email: None
To: Judex
Subject: Mind, jumping to conclusions
Message:
I, when I can remember and have the help of my friends to do just that, pay attention to the pain enough to find out just what is going on, what this pain is up to. Now that statement implies that I acknowledge demons within myself or, more psychiatrically stated, barriers to awareness. I think these barriers and psychological states are my own. But oh how helpful this Forum, the people who give of their wisdom here, has been. I used to think that I was a kind of football for the transcendental big shots. There aren't any transcendental shots of any size. I look to myself. I share what I see. I get feedback. And I prefer the wake up call to the siren song. I believe it is of utmost importance to share what you find within, as it's called. That practice is ancient. Admittedly it does have a traditionalizing effect which can be soporific, but it can also have the effect of facilitating awakening. The tradition of this Forum, a rather new one, is of that kind.
I, when I last looked at it, I had the impression that all feelings are preceded by a thought. See if this regression sequence makes sense to you: Anger is preceded by Fear which is preceded by Selfishness which in turn is preceded by Ignorance. What could it be, if you agree with this schema, that one is ignorant of that leads to a state of selfishness?
I, a few days ago, said, 'If I can't trust myself then who can I trust?' Well, what did I mean by that? What is this self comprised of and can I trust it when it seems really obvious that the self I was talking about is nothing more than a collection of impressions. At this point it is more and more obvious to me that many of those impressions were erroneous and delusional. Maybe I can't exactly trust myself in that way; that is, in the way in which my own views are a tradition in themselves. I can trust myself to find out I think. I say I have what it takes, but the way is fraught with plenty of pain and disillusion as well as joy.
Today I had a bout with the lethargy that has been disabling me for many months or maybe even years. My response to it, which worked for the moment (worked in the sense of clearing the way for me to continue with the work I had to do) was to tell that tendency I have to complain over not feeling like it to shut up and quit complaining and get to work. For me at this point it is a nearly constant battle, but that's because I have indulged this irresponsibility for so long.
I didn't want to deal with my feelings but that didn't make them go away. The substitute for being aware is to be unaware and eventually drugged by unwillingness 'to live life on life's terms' as is said in another program. I believe that one must go the way that is best for one and that that way is very seldom comfortable or nice or agreeable at least at the start.
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Date: Tues, Jun 02, 1998 at 16:05:17 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: charles
Subject: Mind, jumping to conclusions
Message:
Dear Charles, and Judex,
Charles, I thought you were going to tell Judex about what I told you my friend Clo told me many times over the years and that I only understood and began to practice in the last 5 or so years. I always thought that if I just figured out why thing were the way they were in my life that I could change them, Judex. After many years of stagnation I realized that wasn't working but didn't know what else to try. My friend always said to me that I am to much from the neck up and I needed to get Into my emotions, pain, joy etc. and just ask for healing. I couldn't comprehend that for so long but finally it made some sense and I tried it. It has worked more than anything in my life ever did before as far as effecting changes that I want to occur in my person. For me it is a connection to that life force which is connected to everything and therefore connects me to everything. It is just a molding, pressure equalizing exersise, kind of. I hope I am making some sence to you. If not respond and I will try again.
Robyn
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Date: Tues, Jun 02, 1998 at 16:09:05 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Robyn
Subject: Judex
Message:
Dear Judex,
One important thing I forgot from my last post here. That asking for help does not replace thinking, pondering, wondering, analyzing, it works, for me in conjunction with it.
Maybe this isn't anything that would click for you but you never know and I wanted to tell you about it because it has worked for me.
Robyn
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Date: Tues, Jun 02, 1998 at 02:52:02 (EST)
From: carol
Email: None
To: Judex
Subject: Mind, jumping to conclusions
Message:
Jude,My 2 cents: I *think* that feelings follow thoughts, so if you change your thoughts, feelings change. Identifying a belief or thought system that you may hold, that effects your emotions and experience in an unhealthy way is a major task of development which is often facilitated by good friends or counselors. Emotions or feelings on the other hand can cause some very *unreasonable* thoughts to become beliefs!
carol
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Date: Sun, May 31, 1998 at 08:50:47 (EST)
From: seymour
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: meditation - response
Message:
Hello All,
I am still always pleasantly surprised by everyone's responses -
David puts succinctly what I was trying to say - not that meditation is a waste of time (who am I to know?)
but that ' making meditation into something 'spiritual' is a mistake....Meditation needn't be spititual or connected with a guru. I see at relaxation therapy. The claim that used to be drummed home, that meditation will satisfy all your desires is a false one. '
Does anyone remember some interesting experiments with bio-feedback in the 80's. I would be interested in reading some on the conclusions

Also, having got into some arguments with premies by questioning how qualified GM is to lead the world into 'satchitanand' I appreciated your statement 'Turning the mind into an enemy is a ridiculous concept, created by a guru who clearly has no idea what he's talking about.'
In your following post, however, you say 'My experience is that I'm human and I need to encompass all forms of human experience'. I do not think that this is a good argument for practicing meditation - there are countless forms of human experience I hope never to experience and quite a few that I can take or leave.
Also I understand, all too well, the pain you mention of trying to leave DLM, but I differ in my experience in that I never felt the pressure to give up my desires - money, time, sanity and lots of other things were taken from me, but I managed to hang on to my wishes for such things as nice food, comfort, a loving relationship etc. etc. without the heaviest of satsang convincing me to even try and give them up.
It's funny that it is only now, after not doing any serious meditation for many years, that I seem to be losing some of my desires and have decided not to pursue sensational experience so strongly(you won't get me on one of those roller coasters again *)

Keith, you make some good points in favour of meditation and the difference between the adjective,
which I interpret as the focus of attention, and the noun which often means the experience. My query is that, apart from the pursuit of a buzz or bliss experience, why would we want to 'encourage that meditative state'. I am playing devil's advocate a little here because I still remember some good experiences
of meditation and probably have some deep subconscious desires to have them again, but I have also had some great experiences doing many other things. My present philosophy is to not chase experience but,instead, to try and do my duty as a father, husband, friend,colleague etc. and aquire wisdom, worthwhile
skills, become more competent at my work, (all this sounds like service - but to humanity rather than god),
to communicate what I believe to be worthwhile (satsang?) and enjoy the experiences that result from these pursuits.
I admit that in the past I was an experience addict. If I liked a roller coaster ride I would go on it again and again.* Trouble is I sometimes( too often) put my pursuit of experience before my duties as a member of
society, before my education, before my relationships with family and friends....
There is line to be drawn between John Lennon's 'whatever gets you through the night' and the quest for sensational experience for personal enjoyment. Not that I disagree with you Keith when you say
'Well I want a little more than that! I want to really feel alive. I want to really exercise my neurons. And I want to explore my greatest potential' - don't we all, but not at the expense of others or by neglecting our duties as a human being/member of society.
I think John Lennon's phrase refers, not to getting to a higher state of consciousness, but to getting through a painful situation. In this case there is justification in putting yourself first - if you don't you
may suffer permanently as a result and if getting into a meditative state helps then go for it - it is probably a less physically harmful than getting drunk. Hopefully we do not get into these painful states too often or for too long and it is while we are not depressed that I question the value of meditation. I do not see it as a means to reducing desire, or making you a better person - as I said it may be less unhealthy than going down the pub for a few pints ( or whatever your favourite tipple is) but I really don't think you any wiser/more charitable/inspired/in tune with reality..... the next day( disregarding hangovers) Please convince me otherwise if you disagree but I prefer social interaction, education, sustaining my relationship with my family and a few loyal friends, creative arts ( both doing and appreciating).. and many other things - rather than going off on my own to sit under a blanket and try and concentrate on varous parts of me ( contemplating your own navel was a popular phrase in the 60's)
I agree with you, Joy when you say 'Really, my experience with Knowledge was that it was a simple meditation, and something similar could probably be acquired through any one of a hundred teachers (or books).' and also when you say -
'I think meditation is an over-rated phenomenon which is attractive to the Western mind because it's new and mysterious, and life's so darn stressful anyway, something that could mysteriously relieve that stress has got to be wonderful. '
and I remember only too well, Joy, what you say about the claims of k.- 'knowledge is taught to be a door, a way to experience the infinite while your are alive..' and how we have to 'water the seed'.I spent half my life watering it and now wish I hadn't bothered.
I also enjoyed your account of some recent satsang
'He said recently a woman said she experienced 'nothing'. And he said 'nothing?' and she said 'nothing' and he said 'NOTHING?'. And then she looked at him, smiled, and said, 'Oh, thank you!!!' That is a pretty obscure story, don't you think? Also, on this topic about 2 years ago M said the light..may be dim....because it has to travel so far. Now what do you think he was trying to suggest there? ' I have no idea Judex but it's great stuff - worthy of Tommy Cooper( english comedian extraordinaire).
Sorry about the long( and disjointed) post, but I do not get on the internet very often and tend to make the most of it when I do.
Thanks for reading,
Cheers,
Seymour
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Date: Sun, May 31, 1998 at 23:02:00 (EST)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: seymour
Subject: meditation - response
Message:
Seymour,
Of course Maharaji doesn't refer to meditation.
Knowledge, I guess is a specific type of meditation.
But, the point I would emphasize is the 'experience' is what is significant.
Not the experience as against or at the expence of anything else.....but the experience of self...of life...as one is living it . And if the practice of Knowledge assists in expanding or improving the quality of the experience of life then why not practice.
If anything else likewise expands and/or improves the quality of life then ....go for that too....or instead.
It is NOT the practice of meditation that I feel is significant, but rather the MEDITATIVE experience....and therefore however one can naturally (without drugs) invite such meditative experiences , that's a positive in my book.
As for meditation being a relaxation device and anti-stress therapy ....yes ,I agree that can be so......but for me more IS involved.
I can understand why you and many others hate or are turned off by the word 'spiritual'.
As so many other words ,(love, trust, reality, soul, faith)
'spiritual' has been abused, marketed, twisted into whatever shapes were needed to fit the requirement.
In fact words that pertain or point to experience beyond the 'everydaynesses' of life have been so prostituted in the new age market place.
This leaves us with a shocking redundency of meaningful language ....ie; symbols that we can communicate to each other about the subtler and more 'metaphysical'(here we go again....yuk, metaphysical!!! some of you will react) aspects of life.
Personally I feel okay with words such as spiritual, because I have my own associations and meanings for this word.
I once wrote an essay entitled 'the everyday metaphysics of normal daily living'. What my contention was in this essay was that so much of what we experience ordinarily in daily life is actually 'metaphysical' by its very nature.
One could also argue that we ordinarily experience the spiritual in our daily lives too, but either we don't acknowledge the fact ....or we semantically use words and concepts in such a way as to de-spiritualise and de-metaphysicalise experience.
Anyway that in itself is a huge topic of great contention, even overlapping into theories of deconstructionism and philology.
In more simple terms, we humans seem to be very subject to being swayed one way or another by 'language'...by the words we favour or dis-favour......and perhaps lose sight of what is really important , which is the underlying experiences or facts that words should merely point towards.
In this context I would venture to say that meditation or 'Knowledge' is also a spiritual matter and that there is a place for teachers and 'gurus'.
Maharaji is I feel playing a role that really helps a lot of people but also impedes others.
You will disagree with some of what I've written here, but the bottom line for me is that i believe there can be harmony despite variation....and that is my vision for the future of humanity(perhaps not in my life-time) but it is the noble vision that I consider evolution marching towards.
Warm regards to you Seymour,
Keith
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Date: Tues, Jun 02, 1998 at 15:01:25 (EST)
From: seymour
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: meditation - response
Message:
Wotcha Keith,
An interesting reply although there are a few ambiguous statements. I am not sure what you mean by the
'meditative experience' and saying 'if the practice of knowledge assists in expanding or improving the
quality of life then why not practice' is a big IF.
Also what 'more' is involved when someone focuses their attention on a particular thing?
I appreciate your view that 'so much of what we experience ordinarily in daily life is actually 'metaphysical'..' but for many of us our days are filled with the tasks of survival. I wish that it
were not so but the search for 'satchitanand' is a luxury most of the world cannot afford.
'..diving for dear life when we should be diving for pearls ' is from one of my favourite songs
but you can get too sad thinking about it for long.
You mention the 'underlying experience or facts...' - to me this is indeed important. What is the
truth behind our existence / is there an objective reality?
This, at least for me these days ,is a more important driving force than the desire to have some 'out of this world' experience. I would like to understand how I arrived at this point in time; how I can avoid the
pitfalls that are ever present with every decision we make? how to improve myself and where can I
get the courage/strength to carry out the tasks that will bring about this 'self improvement'?
Is there life after death? Reincarnation?... I could go on..
Meditation is one of the methods I have tried in my efforts to understand life and improve myself.
I first tried ( at about 13 yrs old) some self hypnosis techniques learnt from a book, then learnt of
many others - focusing on a candle, mantras, music... I read the teachings of many a so-called master
and signed with for the Maharishi for a while ( if it was good enough for the Beatles...) finally the big
K which I continued to practice for over 20 years. Apart from the odd light headed experience - it now
seems all like a waste of time. All this is why I am very wary of ever again accepting even the most
seductive, alluring, apparently sensible, promise filled advice on how I should live my life - especially
from those who claim to have 'divine inspiration'
Anyhow thanks for taking the time to post - I enjoyed reading it.
Cheers Seymour.
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Date: Tues, Jun 02, 1998 at 16:01:31 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: seymour
Subject: meditation - response
Message:
Seymour, maybe another way is not to just retreat from the world and find peace, and then just struggle on.
I don't know yet what it is but I just wanted to say that.
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Date: Sun, May 31, 1998 at 00:51:40 (EST)
From: carol
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Reincarnation or hallucination
Message:
Hi everybody,
I spent the last 24 hours or so at my Mom and Step-dad's helping Mom get from bed to bathroom and out of chairs. She's 80 and has had a recent fall so is bruised and stiff. She also seems to lack strength and brain-to-limb coordination!
I wanted to share some things she said. One contributes to my belief in reincarnation: when I was waiting and watching her try to get out of bed, she said,'I don't like to be watched, it reminds me of Germany.'(where she has not been in this life!) I said,'What do you mean?' and she said,'You know, with Hitler.'
She also saw someone in the room, who wasn't there physically as far as I know! This was at 4 am when I went in to help her to the bathroom. She said,'Help the little foreign lady first. She has to go bad!' She told me in the morning later that she had seen this women in the room!
Does anyone else remember being told that it was disrepectful to have your feet towards M or the mahatmas? We did a lot of floor-sitting in satsang!It was hard for me and harder with feet aiming back or away!
I want to add that I'm thoroughly enjoying reading the posts since I came home. So far, the ones about irons and light bulbs and feet!!!I'm catching up. I feel like I missed a party, but in a way it's a party we can go to whenever it suits us!

carol ;)
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Date: Sun, May 31, 1998 at 07:36:45 (EST)
From: English Cheddar
Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com
To: carol
Subject: Reincarnation or hallucination
Message:
So the queue for the toilets in Heaven were so long that she had to use your Mother's. I'll keep an extra toilet roll in my bathroom in future.
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Date: Sun, May 31, 1998 at 00:10:38 (EST)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: The dark computor
Message:
A friend of mine e-mailed me the following.
Thought that some of you computor buffs might enjoy it.

The Dark Computer

         Posted on Rec.Humor By: rolleston_c@kosmos.wcc.govt.nz

            Archived & Converted to HTML By: Derek Cashman
                        (dcashman@concentric.net)

The Dark Computer is a technological breakthrough destined to eclipse
the recently announced
Light computer. The Dark Computer results from years of study, research
and developments in the
dark. It is faster than the light computer because dark travels faster
than light. (Proof: Before light
bets anywhere dark is already there!)

The Dark Computer uses the newly discovered subatomic particle, the dark

quark. Our research
has determined that two dark quarks combine to form the basic elementary

particle of darkness,
the offon. Three dark quarks combine to form the elementary particle of
management, the moron.

The Dark Computer requires very little power, so little, in fact that it

is completely powered by a
single lunar cell (similar to the solar cell, but more efficient in dark

conditions).

A complete bundled software package, developed at the Arizona University

of Mimes Night
School, comes with each Dark Computer. The software includes DOS (Dark
Operating System),
Lunar-C (a quick & dirty C compiler), Duskbase-V (an irrational
database), and NADA (an
object oriented programming language). Some of the special hardware
features of the Dark
Computer are:

     Multiple shift registers for right-shift, left-shift, and
night-shift.
     One biggabyte of memory composed entirely of shadow RAM with fully
dissociative outta
     cache.
     Music Synthesizers with demonstration tunes such as Moonlight
Sonata, Dark Eyes, and In
     the still of the Night (which is not a hillbilly song)
     Surreal-time Clock with granularity of 28 days (known as 1 lunar
tick).
     A display composed of one million (1000x1000) DEDs (Dark Emitting
Diodes). These are
     similar to LEDs (Light Emitting Diodes) in the same way that
electron-flow theory resembles
     hole-flow theory.

The MLB Dark Computer is especially useful for such applications as
black hole research, dark
side of the forces commutations, blindfold tests, vampire tracking, and
mushroom management.
Military applications include SDI, Stealth Research, and RFP generation.

The Dark Computer is
powerful enough to handle computations on matter, anti-matter, and
doesn't matter.

Don't be left in the light! Get a Dark Computer for your company and
keep all your employees in
the dark!
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Date: Mon, Jun 01, 1998 at 14:47:24 (EST)
From: charles
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: The dark computor
Message:
Thanks, Keith. What a laugh.
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Date: Sat, May 30, 1998 at 18:24:15 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: How the Message has Changed
Message:
I propose that we start an index or a list, for the information pages, and we list Maharaji's stance on various important issues or teachings, as we learnt them at different times. Just a comparison.
for example,: on Death: in the 70's he told you everyone goes to the light whether they have knowledge or not
In the 90's: he doesnt know about after death, doesnt know what happens, but he can say that those who don't have knowledge are like flowers that never open; ashes to ashes; dust to dust.

Any other takers? I know there are a lot better examples.
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Date: Sun, May 31, 1998 at 23:14:27 (EST)
From: *>*...b
Email: None
To: Judex
Subject: How the Message has Changed
Message:
good idea.
I will pull some out for you.
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Date: Mon, Jun 01, 1998 at 10:24:36 (EST)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Judex
Subject: How the Message has Changed
Message:
Dear Judex,

I'm not too clear on specific quotes so I think this type of feature is a brilliant idea. Sure gets my vote. Good one Judex.

Richard
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Date: Tues, Jun 02, 1998 at 00:49:12 (EST)
From: Pam
Email: None
To: Judex
Subject: How the Message has Changed
Message:
It would be a very interesting exercise, but I'm not sure what is the point. Everyone changes over 25 years. M has changed his stance on things from month to month. Nothing wrong with that. I do that too. When I hear his contradictions I think, 'Well, that is his opinion today. Yesterday he had a different opinion.' I'm not living my life according to his opinions. I just think they're interesting and he's entitled to them.

If you want to proceed with this project, it might be interesting to not only mark the statements that have changed over the years, but to also mark the ones that have remained constant. That would be the most interesting to me. It would take a lot of work. He's done a lot of talking in thirty years.
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Date: Tues, Jun 02, 1998 at 03:01:01 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Pam
Subject: How the Message has Changed
Message:
If you want to proceed with this project, it might be interesting to not only mark the statements that have changed over the years, but to also mark the ones that have remained constant. That would be the most interesting to me. It would take a lot of work. He's done a lot of talking in thirty years.

Pam,

My dear premie friend. I think if you really want to get anything out of this 'project' you have to know what you're looking for. What are you YOU looking for? Do you even know? I.m sorry but I kind of doubt it. You're just lolly-gagging along, lolly, lolly, lolly, GAG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

No, sorry, my keyboard did that. Really.

Anyway, here's why what Maharajy says/said matters. You ready? Naw, I'm not sure you're ready yet. Okie dokie, tell you what, you tell me. Tell me, why do you think it matters what he said? You know, before we get out all our crayons and paper and write down all the things he said over thirty-two years, why? What are we looking for?

Should I tell you? Do you know? Do you really care? Hm?
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Date: Sat, May 30, 1998 at 06:53:28 (EST)
From: Mirabai
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Spiritual Arrogance
Message:
To everyone, many teachers help to keep people in conflict with each other by strongly suggesting that they have the best teqniques and their followers inevitably feel superior to others and that others are lost in some fundamental way.

I never considered Maharajis world to be in the slightest degree religious but I am having second thoughts. I believe that most premies probably would believe that following Maharaji is the superior and best way even though M doesn't come out and spell it out exactly but it is strongly implied. This helps to create an 'us and them' syndrome. That type of stuff reminds me of religion.

Although I admit I've never been a die hard premie but condidered myself to be a true devotee of the truth I always considered M to have little or nothing to critizised about. The reason being that I believed that M totally encouraged people to be totally free spirited and independent,certainly to not be anything like a sheep. A sheep to no one. And yet, I am looking deeply into what there is to see and it appears that especially at this time M is actually encouraging premies to follow him like sheep. I honestly never thought I would see the kinds of things that I have been considering to be true.

I would like to know what other premies are feeling in these matters,although I imagingethat with many people they only have vague thoughts of things just not feeling quite right. Everyone is so inward,so internalised that nobody knows what anyone is feeling or thinking at a M video venue.

I have to give the ex-premie a lot of credit for providing a venue for people to really share whatever people have a need to share and to provide a natural and loving,human support for one another.

that's all for now
sincerely
Mirabai
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Date: Sat, May 30, 1998 at 12:26:36 (EST)
From: DOC
Email: None
To: Mirabai
Subject: Spiritual Arrogance
Message:
I won't argue with you when you say ' I believe that most premies probably would believe that following Maharaji is the superior and best way even though M doesn't come out and spell it out...'

This has ALWAYS been the case, and while I may not chooose an alternative to compare M with, I enjoy K and M for myself. If there is another method out there, Great! But for me, I have no need to find another. Using a bad analogy... I have a new automobile, initially I of course bragged about it, telling all my friends that it was the best car available ... and a great price, etc etc.... now, with time I see that it serves the purpose it was intended to do, regardless of what my initial expectations were. Am I looking for a newer car? No, this one is doing the job quite well. This is just an example.

As for being a sheep... I don't now nor have I ever felt I was one. Yes I follow M and listen to his direction. But I also follow the directions of 1-my employer (if I have one), the auto manual in the car, etc etc. Depending on the arena we are discussing I do follow the direction of the expert, or at least the one that knows about the subject. I have never allowed other's that follow M to be the criteria for being a 'good' premie! If I wanted to watch TV in the ashram, I did.. same with reading the newspaper...or visit with family...or buy the clothing that I liked as opposed to wearing what a housemother/father bought! Some did act as sheep... but again they chose that option. I personally was NOT the typical ashram premie, yet M still gave me opportunity to do things directly for him, despite what DLM,EV, etc, officials wanted. (even when I was one) A rebel? yeah sure. But my connection to M was and is based on my internal exp. with K. No matter the circumstances, ashram, community, or on my own in 'the world', the tie I have with M is within me.... Is this an arrogant statement? Sorry I don't feel it is. If it is ... so be it! M gave me K for ME! I choose to utilize it, and appreciate the exp. I have. No expectations, no strings attached.

One other point, some in here, attempt to freeze frame what M said 5,10,or 20 years ago, and hold that against M today... Things change, so do the circumstances, what may have been needed 20 yrs ago may not be needed today. It got you K!! Being flexible and willing to grow are what make life enjoyable as opposed to stagnating on yesterday's dream. Have you ever told your children to do something that 20 yrs ago you would never have suggested they do? Maybe they were not prepared to do that then, I know that this is a poor example and those here that want to rip into this comment will, regardless of how it is stated.

As for those that enjoy K without M .... go for it! Just enjoy the life you have. If you feel within yourself even a little gratitude... fine, don't get all worried that OH OH NOW I AM GOING TO BECOME A DEVOTEE! C'mon, really and truly, just enjoy yourself! Be happy! If you don't ... so what? Whatever you do, make it real, don't force a feeling of devotion to M if it ain't there. However, just because I feel gratitude, or you did at one time, don't discount what I feel or what you had at one time. It is what it is.

DOC
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Date: Sat, May 30, 1998 at 14:46:04 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: DOC
Subject: Brilliant, Doc
Message:
Doc,

You're cracking me up. I've hear premies lie their butts off here but your attempt to portray yourself as an ashram 'rugged individualist' is hilarious. Too funny. I guess if I'd known you then, and seen you wake up at 5:30, drag yourself down to the living room, bow down before a picture of a little fat kid and his ugly family, sing the same ridiculously long song about surrendering your mind, your everything, then scream out some nonsensical Indian phrases, fall to the floor prostrate before that picture again, then sit there quietly waiting for someone to bring the 'holy flame' and the 'holy water' around for you to wave and drink and splash on your forehead, if I'd seen all that, I should have thought, 'now thee's a guy who answers to no one!.

That's too funny! That's great, absolutely great.

Look, you joker, you did what they told you to do or they kicked you out. If they wanted to transfer you to another city, you went. If they wanted to change your 'service' it got changed. If you wanted money,you had to ask for it. They told you not to kis girls, you didn't. Poverty, chastity and OBEDIENCE. Remember? Of course you do. You're just trying to have a little fun.

Really, my favorite part, (besides the use of overstuffed words like 'utilize' and, get this, 'automobile' -- they make you sound like a bad salesman. On their own they might not be SO bad but, I'll tell you, when you mix in that 'I'm a rebel' shit, it ain't pretty), is your justification for Maharaji lying:

One other point, some in here, attempt to freeze frame what M said 5,10,or 20 years ago, and hold that against M today... Things change, so do the circumstances, what may have been needed 20 yrs ago may not be needed today. It got you K!! Being flexible and willing to grow are what make life enjoyable as opposed to stagnating on yesterday's dream. Have you ever told your children to do something that 20 yrs ago you would never have suggested they do? Maybe they were not prepared to do that then ...

How many people do you know who've ever promised to save the world? How many actually call themselves the 'Saviour of Mankind'? How many people can you think of that tell people they're the Supreme Lord in Human form? Maharaji did. Are these the things tht you say he shouldn't have to answer for?

Too much, Doc, you rugged individualist, you. Too much.
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Date: Sat, May 30, 1998 at 16:11:48 (EST)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: DOC
Subject: Spiritual Arrogance
Message:
DOC,
I've been reading your posts for a couple of weeks, off and on. I have to tell you: You are an unmitigated, unabashed idiot.

DOC says: As for those that enjoy K without M .... go for it! Just enjoy the life you have. If you feel within yourself even a little gratitude... fine, don't get all worried that OH OH NOW I AM GOING TO BECOME A DEVOTEE! C'mon, really and truly, just enjoy yourself! Be happy! If you don't ... so what? Whatever you do, make it real, don't force a feeling of devotion to M if it ain't there. However, just because I feel gratitude, or you did at one time, don't discount what I feel or what you had at one time. It is what it is.

DOC, you blithering fuckbrain, you are the manifestation of arrogance. Who in the hell are you to tell someone to enjoy their life? People have been trying to enjoy life since they've been living in caves. I realize you're unaware of your cult programming and it won't be easy to help you with this because you have a lot of sophisticated defense mechanisms protecting it. But let's give it a try...

When you say 'just enjoy yourself', you're tapping into one of the subtle techniques of cult programming... language. Using phrases like just reveals not only your arrogance, in thinking your part of something superior, but also the braindead teachings of BM. That's what we call the pathetic fat guru here: BM. We use those initials because they also stand for BOWEL MOVEMENT. No offense, DOC.

The other thing you're gravely mistaken about is when you say, 'don't get all worried that OH OH NOW I AM GOING TO BECOME A DEVOTEE!' This is another subtle revelation in your cult programming; trying to imitate the Guru. Sometimes an idiot can pull this off, but the time and place has to be right. When premies were allowed to give satsang, they would say phrases like this, and if they were charming enough, it rubbed people the right way and was endearing, because it reminded them of their Guru. But you DOC, you fucking IDIOT, you're not talking to people who are worried about being devotees. You're talking to people who think BM is a fraud and an idiot.

Next: You use these stupid little comparisons because your brain is programmed. Comparisons are okay once in a while to facilitate in making a point, but when they're used constantly, it reveals the inability to speak for yourself and speak in your own original ideas. Initially, comparisons were used to describe knowledge, to point out that there was no way to describe it. Pretty soon, BM and his SHEEP were using comparisons to talk about anything and everything. It's a cool way to sound like a premie or sound kind of spiritual, but once again, DOC, wrong place. You just look like a fool.

Well, gotta go now. Oh yeah, 'Enjoy yourself'. By the way, in case you didn't notice... that means 'Fuck You'.
Rick
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Date: Sun, May 31, 1998 at 22:47:03 (EST)
From: *>*...b
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: It's worse than Arrogance
Message:
Hi Rick.

This IS prem rawat by the way, each post makes it clearer.
The bit about the car is pure rawat.
He WAS in the ashram briefly at alta loma terrace and DID watch tv
and read newspapers and shop. Shopping and tv became big life long
addictions. He had 8 tv's at one point and he would have them
all on at the same time throughout the house. This was
during the years he was addicted to soap operas. Maybe besides
just his own total self absorbtion the soaps helped get him
to fuck his brothers wife.

Of course again we have more lies like-'Some did act as sheep...
but again they choose that option.' It is quite revealing to
see again and again how truly cold he is and has always been.
I remember him telling a story about his daughter and how he heard
some boyfriend of hers say to her 'dont you love me?
she said -no and he said did you ever love me? and she said no.'
and prem rawat thought that was very funny. I guess he is
vulenrable to the same questions and he certainly would give
the same answer if he had an honest moment. He is deceiving
in his posts here but he is also telling the truth about his
views. HE is quite unconcious for a guy who claims to
'I AM GOD' status whenever he is sort of inside.

Yes he was a dlm official for a while as he mentions. The tie he
has with 'M' as he puts it is 'inside'. Now by his own admission
what is 'inside' is some thing and if he is there
trying not to think then 'I AM GOD'. So what connection to
'm' inside is he referring to? And since he is so damn clear that
ever since the beginning that he avoided any religious or
spiritual connection he had 'no expectations or strings
attached' while of course we were 'stagnating on yesterdays
dream'. good grief.

'I chose to utilize it' is his comment about all his actions.
'utilize it'.

Anon was wondering about the websites useability.
I would mention -media.global media.
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Date: Mon, Jun 01, 1998 at 00:57:59 (EST)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: *>*...b
Subject: It's worse than Arrogance
Message:
Bill,
So then, by your account, I was pretty rude to BM.
Rick
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Date: Tues, Jun 02, 1998 at 17:38:09 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: *>*...b
Subject: It's worse than Arrogance
Message:
I don't think DOC could be BM. DOC, despite some fairly truncated thinking, is fairly articulate. You can call BM a lot of things but articulate is not one of them, except of course if you consider that drivel-performance he does up on the stage as something that sounds articulate, which would be to label it something other than what it is, which is an act that he had been doing for his entire life. He could do it in his sleep, and isn't judged on what he says anyway.
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Date: Sat, May 30, 1998 at 17:26:56 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: DOC
Subject: Major problem, Doc
Message:
Doc,

Another thing -

In a post a few days ago you wrote:

So apparently you Jim, suffer from not being able to read. You seem to enjoy mistating someone in order to make your own point. So now YOU have been exposed! You appear to do that with M's talks as well. Pull a quote here, a quote there, all out of context, and then build your theory about what he said. Fine, that is your right... but many do see through it.

In other words, you're accusing me of distorting M's words somehow. Right?

But, this morning you wrote:

One other point, some in here, attempt to freeze frame what M said 5,10,or 20 years ago, and hold that against M today... Things change, so do the circumstances, what may have been needed 20 yrs ago may not be needed today. It got you K!! Being flexible and willing to grow are what make life enjoyable as opposed to stagnating on yesterday's dream. Have you ever told your children to do something that 20 yrs ago you would never have suggested they do?

which is an entirely inconsistent way of dealing with those same quotes. First you say they don't mean what they appear to, then you say that they do, but that Maharaji was somehow justified in making those statements (i.e. he has good reasons -- who knows what they are? -- for saying things that aren't true).

If you believe what you said today, then you can't believe what you said the other day. Something's got to give. Well?
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Date: Sat, May 30, 1998 at 18:20:38 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: DOC
Subject: Spiritual Arrogance
Message:
Doc I have two things to point out about your answer

1. When you use the example of having found a car that works for you, that is a direct parody of how Marharihi himself explains why you should not question whether there are any other Masters. Did you know that you are just parroting what he has told you to think? Is this really your own idea? (In his example he uses finding water in the desert, and not asking if there is any other water, most recenty, doesn't he?)

2. Yuo are saying it is ok for M to completely change what he says about knowledge and the master, to 'move with the times'. Do you really believe that, having read here all the descriptions of what it was like in the 70's and 80's? Do you think Christ kept changing his message? Is that the sign of a true leader? No, it sounds more like a PR company, trying to match the mood of the targeted audience. For example, he was very clearly teaching that sex, possessions, worldly things will interfere with getting to bliss inside. Now he says it doesnt matter, in fact do your job, use your mind for what it's worth. But what a shame he fucked so many people up when he was just starting out, or is that his exuse? I though a perfect master was a realised soul, not someone who is learning by trial and error. And then do you think he cares how he affected them? Well he was all right, Jack. He took no responsbility at all for what he taught, or what he did to people's lives by encouraging them to give up everything and live in ashrams in order to reach perfection. Do you think a perfect master has love for each and every one of his followers, or do you think they are quite ruthless, because quantity and longevity is more important than a few souls?
Think again, DOC
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Date: Sat, May 30, 1998 at 21:51:34 (EST)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: Doc
Subject: Spiritual Arrogance
Message:
Doc,
One thing that seems to emanate from your posts , and which I feel I am very familiar with, is a type of psychological 'tic' that occurs when someone falls too strongly under the 'spell' of someone elses personality.
It is a type of spiritual arrogance.
It is even as you admit to yourself.
If one finds something that is good for you then why look for something else.
But , Doc, this is not the best of attitudes.
Indeed I personally find this attitude rather like a major fault in a car!
It is first of all engendered by a mode of thinking that has had a malignent history.....namely, ' my way, my guru, my religion, my god, my experience' is better than yours, better than anyones....; NO, NO! That is not a natural and normal attitude.
A truly free person wouldn't feel and think in that way.
It is a form of 'spiritual materialism'.
It is I feel Maharaji's biggest blind spot....and so it also becomes the biggest blind spot with most premies, as it is with so many christians, jews, muslims, atheists, sceptics, scientists, and so on. It is like a psychological curse.
It is the ugly face of superiority.
It is an illusion of granduer.
It is a type of 'chosen people' syndrome.
It begins in the kindergarten!
And Doc, you are trying to justify it....because you are caught in its powerful grip( Jim, what type of meme is this?).
It is so easy to fall prey to this archetypal 'force'(meme).
We all want to feel and believe we are on the winning side.....the god-friendly side....the way of salvation.
Beneath this tendency to totally support a side (as in football) there is an anxiety. Perhaps an existential anxiety.
'What if I'm really lost? What if I'm really on the wrong side?
What if my team (my guru) is really leading me astray and at the end of the season , once again I realise we haven't lifted the trophy?
I'm getting a little carried away with my metaphors....sorry.
But the point I'm making is hopefully clear.
I don't want to feel puffed up with the pride of being one of the chosen ones. And Maharaji does most definately encourage just that type of identification.
Doc, it is so obvious. It really is. Premies have a way of concealing their pride....behing a type of controlled self-effacing persona, but scratch the surface a bit and it clear.
I'm not trying to tarnish all premies with the same brush, but
it is an energy that seems to pervade most groups and organizations that think they have something that is better than anyone else.
Maharaji could realise something himself here, but his tendency when confronted ,I feel is , to dig his heels deeper into the 'mud' and tighten the strings of the 'pride' even more.
The tiger of ego!
It seems to be a psychological 'meme' or archetypal force that has itsc roots in something like ;
'I know something real and I know that I know and therefore
I am sanctioned to share what I know without any doubts because what I know is real and therefore those who I share IT with should also know that they know and know that IT is real and not have any doubts and therefore WE are very special, unlike the others who do not know'.
So collective ego is generated.
As Maharaji has told the premies and which gets re-echoed by instructors.
Premies are pioneers. They are the first generation of the 'WAY'.
Step away from it all for a while and it begins to seem a
little strange!!!!!!!!!!!!
Warm regards to you Doc,
Keith
PS/ BTW, to end a post with the words 'enjoy your life ' os simular is I feel antagonistic, provocative and a sign of the very superiority that I have been referring to. The blessing given by one of the chosen ones.
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Date: Sat, May 30, 1998 at 23:21:43 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: Spiritual Arrogance
Message:
Keith I like what you said very much, and I am also enjoying what Mirabai is saying. It is very helpful to read your thoughts. Some parts seem more and more strange to me, too, like M's whole talk about 'bringing knowledge to the West'. He was very proud of this, and talked it his big accomplishment as a boy from India.
(In fact he was no mere boy)

But anyway, when I didn't know much (anything actually) about the hereditary nature of the knowledge master, I sort of vaguely imagined M was 'it' because he had been recognised as 'it' by the Indians (and they would know) and now by the other people in the know, and I could recognize it too.

I thought his being the Perfect Master, another like Christ, was something that we are blessed with, gifted with on this earth every century or so. Part of the myth I was told was that there can be only one at a time, and there always is one, so for everyone in the dark, there is One if they are thirsty enough and have the grace to find them. So, we are never alone in this earthly hell/darkness.

I didn't really see it as a boy bringing concepts of Krishna and Hindu/radhasoami meditation to the West, in all it's glory.

He says if people knew how to be happy, they already would be,after all these centuries. If knowledge made you happy and enlightened, then surely most of India must be that way after centuries of Knowledge having been available there.

But now they are in a nuclear standoff with Pakistan. Scary, eh?
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Date: Sat, May 30, 1998 at 23:40:35 (EST)
From: John Hammond-Smyth
Email: padded.cell@asylum
To: DOC
Subject: Spiritual Arrogance
Message:
I couldn't agree more there Doc. It's ridiculous how these failed premies keep harping on about how Maharaji said he was the Lord. I mean, they were really stupid to take it to heart weren't they. Not me! I knew he was joking all along and when he told us to shout it on the streets, I just laughed at all those stupid deluded premies trying to do their propogation for the Lord. Anyway Doc, I must go now because my nurse is coming back to give me my injection.
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Date: Sun, May 31, 1998 at 00:34:50 (EST)
From: K.S
Email: None
To: John Hammond-Smyth
Subject: Spiritual Arrogance
Message:
Dear John.H.S,
You have finally let the proverbial cat out of the bag.
How are you going to continue on now with the parody?
Very clever fellow !
I hope the staff are looking after you well.
My blessings to you , my spiritual child!!!!
K.S
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Date: Mon, Jun 01, 1998 at 07:51:08 (EST)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: DOC
Subject: Not long to go now...
Message:
Dear DOC,

If what we are doing here means so little to you, why do you find it so hard to stay away? Compassion?...you display little or none, Brotherhood?...not according to your statements, even current premies seem beneath your contempt, Fear?...now I think we're getting somewhere.

Your attempt to characterise yourself as a rebel (mentioned more than once) in a convoluted defence of the system is just too much. A real sheep in wolf's clothing. You obviously despise us and have little in common with us, yet you keep on coming.

Maybe, deep down, you enjoy the 'company of truth'.

Your position is a tenuous one. You have built this house of cards during your posts and you are now stuck at the top with nowhere to go. It is getting windy and wobbly. (I thought you liked analogies)

The truth is DOC/RAWAT that I feel kind of ambiguous about you. I really dislike all the arrogant crap and have a desire to pull all your specious intellectual spoutings apart. On the other hand I sense that you are shitting yourself as your finger nails catch on the very edge of your personal chasm. It's not a nice feeling is it?

Regards

Richard
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Date: Tues, Jun 02, 1998 at 02:37:17 (EST)
From: Charles
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Not long to go now...
Message:
Thanks again Richard. I am laughing my ass off.
charles
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Date: Thurs, Jun 04, 1998 at 13:21:42 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: Mirabai
Subject: Spiritual Arrogance
Message:
Dear Mirabai,
I have been so slow to offering you my hand and I have been feeling strongly for a bit now that I wanted to communicate to you in some way. It is a wonderful thing that you and Keith are not at odds in your changing opinions of K and BM. It is so nice to have both of you here.
I never felt strongly about BM being my master although I remember more after months of posting here that I had graciously forgotten. I did tell the Jesus freaks in the small town I lived in that the word was talked about in the bible, etc but deep into my heart I just took the meditation. I think it is what saved me a lot of the hurt so many have experienced in the cult.
Robyn
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Date: Sat, May 30, 1998 at 05:34:51 (EST)
From: seymour
Email: seymour_t@rocketmail.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Meditation - Is it worth it?
Message:
Hi y'all,
Having had a quick browse through the archives it seems that the forum is busier than ever.
The nine techniques are interesting - I might even give 'em a try one day, although I am not too sure that meditation is such a good thing. After practicing for over 20 years it now seems similar to taking drugs - o.k. if you feel the need to change your consciousness - but what's the point?
Why focus your attention on some bodily function?
Why create unescessary conflict between what you would like to think about and something that is the equivalent of watching paint dry?
It is understandable when there is a need to stop painful thoughts - as when we are depressed or
grieving, but every day?( it never seemed like practicing the piano - i.e. it never became easier as the years went by).
I will take a paracetamol when I have a bad headache but I wouldn't want to take them all the time.
I felt guilty for years when I did not meditate but now I think it is mostly a waste of time and sometimes find it difficult to
break the habit.
I could be wrong - does anyone have any convincing, Reasonable arguments for the practice
of meditation without lapsing into the religious/spiritual vernacular? - or against it?
It could even be more dangerous than drugs if connected to a cult. I remember Krishnamurti saying that the only good form of meditation was to be 'aware', and nowadays I just try to root
out the inspiration in life from many the many sources all around us - not least other people - whilst trying to avoid the mystic, superstitious hokum. I only believe what I can see and not all
of that ( as Quentin Crisp said).
I know there is often talk about throwing away the baby with the bath water but my experience of
the whole religious trip has been nothing but trouble - always leading to putting down the ordinary person in favour of some higher authority. I now put my family, friends and the rest of humanity before god - doomed though I may be for it. If the creator, preserver and destroyer is up there
somewhere, I am sure he can get on with his job without my help or worship.
p.s.
I found Marolyn's letter sad. It reminded me of the state of mind we are in when followin a master.
I remember feeling that those who had rejected the path of 'knowledge' were fools.
Now, although I am less sure of what life is all about, I hope I do not judge the lifestyles of other people so strongly. Whatever gets you through the night - so long as it hurts no one else.
One of the things about being a 'member' of any organisation is that you close yourself of and tend to narrow your perspective. There is so much inspiration from so many non-spiritual sources - many of them as far away from a life of meditation and austerity as you can get, yet wonderful nonetheless.
So long as we chose kindness towards our fellow creatures over cruelty - what else do we need to
do?
Cheers,
Seymour
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Date: Sat, May 30, 1998 at 09:32:28 (EST)
From: Sir David
Email: David.Studio57@btnternet.comi
To: seymour
Subject: Meditation - Is it worth it?
Message:
I think Maharaji and his bakti yoga mission have put a lot of people off meditation. I think that making meditation into something 'spiritual' is a mistake too. I think it is these two thinks that causes an unnecessary conflict.

Meditation needn't be spititual or connected with a guru. I see at relaxation therapy. The claim that used to be drummed home, that meditation will satisfy all your desires is a false one. Also any experience from meditation is not permanent and sometimes may only last for a few minutes or an hour or so.

So many ridiculous claims and promises were made about the knowledge meditation. I think it's time to go back to the drawing board and re-assess the situation without the mystique of gurus, avatars or any such thing as spirituality. I would describe meditation as a way to perceive another part of yourself. A way to broaden your experience. I don't think one should create a conflict and try to stop thinking about things we want to think about. Any meditation that causes conflict is defeating the object. If meditation is approached in such a way then nothing but harm will ensue. Turning the mind into an enemy is a ridiculous concept, created by a guru who clearly has no idea what he's talking about. And he nevr practised what he preached anyway.

Many of us have experienced at some time, the simple rest that comes from a relaxed meditation. Such a thing would be appreciated by anybody if they were shown how to do it. It needn't change our lives and it needn't interfere with our pleasures and responsibilities. I would see it as an additional pleasure. Anything contrary to this will never succeed.

Maharaji turned meditation into a heavy trip. So far away from a simple experience of peace of mind.
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Date: Sat, May 30, 1998 at 09:56:56 (EST)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: seymour
Subject: Meditation - Is it worth it?
Message:
A complex topic, this.
Meditation as a noun or meditative as an adjective?
As a noun meditation describes the act of meditating.
This refers to the 'practice'...which does not as such indicate anything about the experience one may or mat not be having.
Meditative as an adjective describes an experiential state of consciousness. As in 'I am meditative'.
Interestingly ,I can be meditative without actually meditating ...at least in any formal and outwardly observable sense.
The problem with associating the meditative experience with particular techniques , like Knowledge, is that confusion can ensue between the means and the ends.
The techniques are meant to be the means by which the experience can occur, which is the 'end'.
But this 'end'...this result...is what is really important regardless of how it is achieved.
Personally I have experienced 'states of consciousness' that have been enjoyable , insightful, transformative, inspiring, and sometimes 'mystical' by meditating with Maharaji's knowledge, other types of meditation techniques, being simply aware or in other types of inductive ways, intentionally or unintentionally.
But what is vital here is the meditative consciousness itself.
Of course some things detract from being in the meditative state of consciousness and other things help to stimulate or encourage (or awaken) such states.
And it is important to me to try and discern what some of the principles are that allow for me to experience meditative states of being.
Why? Because meditativeness in my experience is free of many 'negative' energies and in touch with many positive energies.
I could be more specific but I'm afraid of getting too bogged down into too many details.
The bottom line is ones personal evaluation of what is preferred experience.....what is felt to be the greater priority on an experiential level.
If I was pushed I could list many of the advantages that are associated with meditativeness , but the words tend to obscure rather than clarify.
The simple reason why we try and experience anything I guess is because we enjoy it.
Even mascochists apparently 'enjoy' their pain......please kick me again!!
What did Lennon sing....'whatever gets you through the night'.
Well I want a little more than that!
I want to really feel alive.
I want to really exercize my neurons.
And I want to explore my greatest potential.
At least much of the time.....when I'm not exhausted .
It is possible , I feel , to become meditative in a natural way; yes a bit like Krishnamurti suggested.....by being aware in the midst of all the doings.
Seymour, that's my offering!
Warm regards,
Keith
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Date: Sat, May 30, 1998 at 15:16:17 (EST)
From: Honest Cheddar
Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com
To: Keith
Subject: A can of worms
Message:
Keith, what are these 'principals' you talk about. You have not explained yourself fully here. Are these principals the old 'giving up the world' stuff. If so then I could not agree with you at all. My experience is that I'm human and I need to encompass all forms of human experience. Meditation is a part of that experience.

I'm sorry if I'm over-reacting here Keith but that is the result of the pain I went through trying to give up the world and my desires for Maharaji in the seventies. I do not believe that it is healthy to try to stop normal human desire when it occurs and the fact that M incorporated that into meditation is something I'm very angry about, still. I guess I'm still fucked up from the whole thing. I'll be honest here. I tried to deny my humanness for too long and it damaged me.

Perhaps you believe in an ashram type life-style for your meditative state. Perhaps I'm wrong and I apologise if I am.

Today I meditated and for a while I felt myself still. Now I won't be like that all day. I am human. Nothing about me is any different to any other average human. I have ambitions, loves & hates, sexual desires and am subject to all the general pleasure and pain and grief that goes with living. Meditation doesn't change all of that for me and I don't want it to. I spent too long trying to be inhuman with Maharaji. I now react most strongly when two things are put in opposition and conflict my someone.

1) My need to be human.
2) My experience from meditation.

I react strongly because these are two things which are dear to me and which Maharaji tried to seperate. My having brought them together took a long time and a lot of deprogramming by myself. You see, I am not recovered yet. Anyone reading this will see that I am still hungup.
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Date: Sat, May 30, 1998 at 20:11:01 (EST)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: Honest Cheddar
Subject: A can of principles
Message:
David, You said,
'Keith, what are these 'principals' you talk about. You have not explained yourself fully here. Are these principals the old 'giving up the world' stuff. If so then I could not agree with you at all. My experience is that I'm human and I need to encompass all forms of human experience. Meditation is a part of that experience.'

No David, the principles I spoke about were not 'the old giving up the world stuff'.
I am not a world-denier.
I shall re-read my post and elaborate on what I was trying to say.
After a nights sleep I've forgotten how I used the word 'principles'.
More soon,
Keith
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Date: Sat, May 30, 1998 at 20:59:58 (EST)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: Honest Cheddar
Subject: A can of principles
Message:
Okay, I said in my first post,
'And it is important to me to try and discern what some of the principles are that allow for me to experience meditative states of being.
Why? Because meditativeness in my experience is free of many 'negative' energies and in touch with many positive energies.'

What I am indicating, David, is that (eg); if I am feeling stressed or confused(in my head in the negative sense , perhaps)
I need to consciously acknowledge my 'condition' and take steps to remedy it....by doing what allows me to become meditative.
Indeed if there is something in my enviroment that is a part of my stress, eg; too much noise , or the wrong type of 'sound'(which is triggering reactions of wanting to blow the tv set up) then that aspect of 'worldliness' is experienced as the enemy.
But I am not suggesting some religious 'ashram type' enviroment as the solution.
Actually this is interesting in that for years my wife and I would often feel that we should transform our household into something more resembling an ashram. BUT, our experience of an ashram was limited mainly to our experiences of years of visiting an ashram that has nothing to do with Maharaji.
See my 'Guru Enigma's 'post!
The word ashram had associations with us such as , cleanliness,
orderliness(within reason), beautiful music, aromatic aromas,
good company and so on ....oh, yes, and an unforced , relaxed type of meditativeness......or consciousness.
This desire to transform our household was because of the contrast between the ashram and our often messy, noisy, chaotic and sometimes too isolated home enviroment.
As far as all the worldly desires , well, I have learnt over the years to not struggle with them. Indeed Swamiji's influence here was quite strong. As a Tantric teacher he exemplified world-loving , not world-hating. His message was 'live through everything you need to' but with care and sensitivity to others. No rules! No dress codes! In fact , during 16 years in Australia, swamiji still wears Indian clothes and mainly keeps an Indian household , but others are allowed to behave naturally.
He is certainly not perfect,(far from it) but I am just giving you a context for my more positive associations with ashrams.
I personally choose to live a fairly disciplined life as that suits me.
I hardly ever drink alcohol, I no longer smoke, I dont do drugs and I eat mostly healthy food (and drink).
But that is because I am learning to respect my body more (and my consciousness) , not because I am following some rules imposed on me from the outside.
And I am 49 ; and realise that the body is prone to dis-ease as one gets older. I almost died 2 years ago , partly due to disregard over many years for my mortal coil.
So, David, my 'principles' are really just common-sense mixed with a bit of caring consciousness.
And I still have a long way to go.
Sometimes I'll still sneak a chocolate bar and then feel sorry later because my body and mind suffer the negative after-effects.
But I'm getting there! I guess 'all things in moderation' and 'some things not at all ' boils down to a very personal agenda. And sometimes it has felt right to do somethings to the extreme...100%...all the way....but that type of 'tantric' exercise is exceptional rather than common, and can be risky and even dangerous.
Enough for now. I hope things are a little clearer now. Can you relate?
Warm regards,
Keith
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Date: Sat, May 30, 1998 at 23:10:12 (EST)
From: Honest Cheddar
Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com
To: Keith
Subject: It is ironic
Message:
Thanks for replying to my post, Keith. It's late and I must go to bed. Briefly, I understand a bit better what you were talking about. I'm glad you were not implying what I feared you were. I know my reactions may seem odd but they stem from my desire to undo what was forced upon me by Maharaji's mission.
I believe in my own experience but the old programming creeps in from time to time as some people here know. The original thread was about is meditation worth it. I believe it is but and it's a very big but, it is only worth it if it is done in such a way as is in harmony with the daily life. Meditation taken to extremes or used to try to solve practical problems is damaging.
I think meditation is like dreaming - we can feel better for it. The time spent still and looking within can definitely benefit us for the rest of the day. Today I did about 35 minutes meditation and felt better for it. Years ago in my youth, I used to be a racing cyclist and would enjoy training with similar beneficial results.
My anger or angst has been due to being taught the wrong thing about meditation by Maharaji's mission. I still haven't got over this, you'll probably realise. People lived under the delusion that this meditation was going to make them realise God and they had to give up everthing in order to experience it. I have been very angry about this falsehood that was taught because it damaged many people and those people would have benefitted from sensible, non austere meditation. It's ironic isn't it.
Jim often mentions his friend who committed suicide. His friend was in turmoil. Now the M trip has often put me in turmoil too. Jim's friend was unlucky in that he was unable to unravel all of the crap that he'd been fed before his turmoil overwhelmed him. I still have crap to unravel but at least I have some discrimination now. My life and the people in it are dear to me and I don't allow Maharaji to belittle it, as I did do in the past. Life is far from perfect but I'd rather be here sorting it out with the love shared down here than be elsewhere. Heaven can wait, I'm in no hurry.
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Date: Sat, May 30, 1998 at 12:55:19 (EST)
From: Joy
Email: None
To: seymour
Subject: Meditation - Is it worth it?
Message:
VERY well put, Seymour. I sometimes get slightly perturbed at the way people here on the Forum say the Knowledge (as M. taught it) is so valuable, since this subtly lends credence to M as a genuine Master or teacher of some sort and can unintentionally support his trip that he's so 'special' and deserves all this over-the-top gratitude he's so into receiving. Really, my experience with Knowledge was that it was a simple meditation, and something similar could probably be acquired through any one of a hundred teachers (or books). I didn't think there was anything all that great about the actual meditation experience as revealed by M, and I can just hear the hue and cry from the premies as they read this that I never really practiced properly, etc. etc. (I think two hours a day for nearly ten years would be a fair shot at practicing properly, don't you?)

I think meditation is an over-rated phenomenon which is attractive to the Western mind because it's new and mysterious, and life's so darn stressful anyway, something that could mysteriously relieve that stress has got to be wonderful. But right now I'm looking at two little birds cavorting in the tree outside my window, and it's every bit as wonderful as seeing the 'light' as revealed by M, so I think there are many ways of having an 'out of your mind' experience and settling that mind down, you don't necessarily have to do techniques 1 thru 4 to get there. The little birds do just fine for me, thank you Maharaji (and they don't require I show any gratitude monetarily, unless I want to support a wildlife fund or something), and there are many other ways to obtain a little peace, walk by a stream, listen to some music, read a poem, do some yoga exercises, deep breathing -- hundreds, really.

All this stuff about M. showing people their life, and saving them from their 'mind' is hogwash, and designed by him to perpetuate the 'Master' delusion that he's so successfully pawned off on simple people yearning for a deeper experience in life. I think meditation, in and of itself, is alright, but it gets so blown out of proportion by these Indian teachers (it's big business for them, don't forget) that it becomes difficult for people to view it in perspective, for the simple, ordinary and everyday experience that it is (and should be).

Just my thoughts, I'm sure there will be many who disagree.
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Date: Sat, May 30, 1998 at 18:09:59 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: Joy, Seymour and everyone
Subject: Meditation - Is it worth it?
Message:
Joy,

It was good to reply your reply, and Seymour's initial post.Something I want to add is that when I was asking questions about knowledge of a 70's premie I said just that, nature is beautiful. And he said, yes but it's impermanent. It's not here forever. Whereas what's inside is. M talks about the earth going to end one day. He uses the idea of death a lot in his introductory videos to suggest people 'need to know' or whatever.

So knowledge is taught to be a door, a way to experience the infinite while your are alive. In aspirant videos he describes and suggests the exquisite sensations. Then he goes on to say, like a seed, you have to water it with the water of devotion. There guys, that's where the devotion talk comes in.

All I want to say Joy is I practiced for a lot less than 10, and Seymour your 20 years but I did it faithfully and as correctly as I could. And I didn't have much of an experience, not the kind of spiritual bliss - being in samadhi - I thought I was going to.
Then when M talked about not having pre-conceptions about what Knowledge is, but to be honest, he is the one who sowed those pre-conceptions and even I remembered that. That is a big variation in the message he gives. He primed me up with his 'promises', almost whispered in my ear, of the bliss awaiting me, and then later, after I received knowledge, he says not to expect anything. Then, I remember I have to water the seed (at first I thought that meant a lot of practice) then I slowly remembered it was listening to him/devotion that must be what he meant by watering the seed. The seed he talks about giving is a direct reference to the biblical story about a seed being thrown in fertile ground etc (self-comparison with christ). So just like he uses Krishna mythology for the East, he uses Christian for the West.

I think a lot of people are leaving because they are disappointed by the knowledge sessions. They don't even stay after that. He said recently a woman said she experienced 'nothing'. And he said 'nothing?' and she said 'nothing' and he said 'NOTHING?'. And then she looked at him, smiled, and said, 'Oh, thank you!!!'
That is a pretty obscure story, don't you think?

Also, on this topic about 2 years ago M said the light..may be dim....because it has to travel so far.

Now what do you think he was trying to suggest there?

And on the initial paragraph about nature, it was also suggested to me that since nature, my self and my loved ones are all impermanent, I should not 'be attached' to them. So not only is the teaching that the practice of knowledge/devotion/service takes you the divine, but it must be put first, above everything else in your life, because nothing else is as important. That's what makes it a cult, in my opinion.
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Date: Sat, May 30, 1998 at 22:49:48 (EST)
From: charles
Email: None
To: Judex
Subject: Meditation - Is it worth it?
Message:
At approximately 0500 today I awakened, recorded my dream, and sat down for a short session of meditation. As usual I saw not NOTHING but just the same old thing comparable yes to watching paint dry or grass grow. And it would have been as generally uncomfortable as it usually is if my mind hadn't been racing along and doing rather well. Do you know why my mind was working so well, why I could quickly synopsize my dream rather than write the usual drawn out description? It was because i am reading and writing here. It is NOT because I woke up in a condition of unreasoning faith and devotion. And one of the thoughts that was amusing and enlightening for me was a completely different view, for me, of why I don't see light, or hear music, or ride the steed of the word. I had, for years, assumed that something was wrong with me, that it was my failing, my fault. Maybe, I was thinking, I didn't get into knowledge, as it's called, because it just might be the spiritual (god I hate that word) equivalent of a made for TV movie. Who wants all that humdrum contentment? I used to think, long before I recieved knowledge, that one could merely pay attention to the world around and thereby find all the answers one might need, gain all the understanding one could desire. I thought the answers were written all over the place and could be read if one was attentive and persistent. I left almost, no not almost, I left everything I had learned on my own when I became a premie. I believed I had the inside story, the real poop, that I was on the Big Ship, etc. The experience I had with Mahatma Fakiranand had everything to do with that but I failed to apply my usual test to that experience that I had used on every other one before it. I failed to check out how well it worked or if it worked at all; that is, I took it on faith. I was supposed to be guileless, remember, DOC? I was guileless. That qualifying characteristic of an aspirant was drummed in over and over again.
I certainly should have been guileful & doubtful. If I had been I would not have wasted all the time I did on something that I just knew was going to work one day. For me, a method had to deliver tangible results and soon. Beliefs were meant to be tested. But knowledge was special and I would be a fool to not believe in it unto the end. These days I prefer my mind and the chance that I might just be able to learn something on my own steam. Thank you all.
Charles
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Date: Sun, May 31, 1998 at 21:52:20 (EST)
From: carol
Email: None
To: Joy
Subject: Meditation - Is it worth it?
Message:
I agree with your thoughts! (And David's and Seymour's) Meditation
as I know it has unpleasant associations and it is difficult to feel motivated to do it until I can break out of my habitual thinking about it, or programming. It is good for me to be able to think about why I do or don't want to do it, and to consider it's value apart from what I've been told or have believed are the 'shoulds and shouldn'ts.'
carol
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Date: Sun, May 31, 1998 at 01:08:40 (EST)
From: carol
Email: None
To: seymour
Subject: Meditation - Is it worth it?
Message:
Hi seymour,
I found your post to be uplifting! I've been way too judgemental and heavy about myself recently...so serious about WHAT IS THE TRUTH ABOUT GOD?!. Hope to see you here again.
carol
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Date: Sat, May 30, 1998 at 00:08:45 (EST)
From: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net
To: Everyone
Subject: Bye Kids!
Message:
Bye Kids! I'm off to Panama early Saturday morning, where I will have to be a celibate priest for three weeks (I better work on my iron/light bulb analogies). I'll miss all the fun going on around here; there are some very funny posts today. I'll also miss all the fun with George and DOC, but that's the price one pays when they take on Holy Orders. Jim, I sent you a tape in the mail (no lipstick, sorry) and you should see it in about a week. I'll miss you all, and uh, Jesus did not teach this Knowldge! Buh-bye!
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Date: Sat, May 30, 1998 at 22:44:00 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Mickey the Pharisee
Subject: Bye Kids, too!
Message:
I'll be on vacation June 6-13. In addition, I just don't have the time to check in here everyday due to a huge project-the ex-premie convention center (just kidding, sort of). Have a good trip, Michael. Good luck with the celibacy thing. Take Care everyone, VP
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Date: Sun, May 31, 1998 at 00:19:41 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: See you Veep
Message:
Well Veep,

I certainly understand the time problem but tell me, with you go, who's going to keep everybody from jumping down each others' throats here? You don't think I can do it on my own do you? Take care and, at a minimum, as the good Lord says, Stay in Touch.

Jim
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Date: Sun, May 31, 1998 at 16:55:03 (EST)
From: Veep, almost on vacation
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: See you Veep
Message:
Jim,
I have FAITH that you can keep your composure. (Ha!Ha!) They DO test it though don't they? My God, I think you've kept yourself in check very well lately. All things considered. Keep giving them the quotes. If anyone answers you honestly, have Katie email me. I don't want to miss that. I'll be 'keeping in touch' Hahahahahha, VP
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Date: Sun, May 31, 1998 at 08:30:54 (EST)
From: John Hammond-Smyth
Email: padded.cell@asylum.com
To: VP
Subject: Bye Kids, too!
Message:
My nurse has just taken my straight jacket off, so I can write a short message. What could a true premie such as myself say to one who is departing for a holiday? Well, enjoy your life, VP and we'll see you back at his divine lotus feet soon. Now I must sing arti...
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Date: Sun, May 31, 1998 at 23:12:22 (EST)
From: *>*...b
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: vp and big Mickey
Message:
Thank you guys for your posts.
Enjoy your vacations and post again!
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Date: Sun, May 31, 1998 at 00:17:26 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Mickey the Pharisee
Subject: See you, Mickey
Message:
Thanks in advance for the tape. Three weeks of celibacy huh? Well that's Panama for you. Frankly, I never understood the place. Anyway, have a good time, give up the Lord and we'll se you when you get back.
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Date: Fri, May 29, 1998 at 22:24:51 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Nigel on Dawkins & Gould
Message:
Nigel kindly sent me the following and subsequently authorized me to post it. I found it really clear and helpful and thought y'all might too. The only thing I've removed are some nasty jokes about Katie which, I'm sure, she wouldn't like. (There, Katie, you owe me one):

'I'll do my best to outline the Dawkins / Gould disputes, but there's a
danger I might misrepresent one or the other. As to what the biologists
think - I really don't know, apart from the ones who write books. I
think for many scientists and ordinary readers the debates are bit like
those between 17th century theologians over the number of angels that
can dance on the head of the pin, and that they (we) are all on the same
side really.

But it isn't even an 'either/or' situation, and I think most academics
with any stake in explanations of human nature place themselves at
various points along a continuum of opinions from one extreme to the
other. And I guess you could include here biologists, ethologists,
brain scientists, geneticists, psychologists, philosophers and
sociologists. Anyway, here are the two main Gould/Dawkins ongoing spats that I am
aware of:

(1) 'Sociobiology'

Back in 1975, two pretty important/influential books came out: Dawkins'
'Selfish Gene' and Edward O Wilson's 'Sociobiology'. They are so
similar in many respects that people tend to bundle them together, and
you will often see Dawkins referred to as a 'sociobiologist'.

Dawkins' idea was actually pretty revolutionary in that the basic unit
of selection, ie., the thing that is favoured by one particular
environment during natural selection, is not the organism itself, but
the 'gene' (the word also being used to refer to a group of genes that
may be responsible for a particular physical structure or behaviour).
Both books dealt with animal behaviour, explaining their social
interactions in terms of organisms directing all their actions towards
preserving copies of their own genes into the next generation - except
in Dawkins' case he explained it as the gene directing the animals'
behaviour for its own benefit.

Both good books (and Wilson's was actually lavishly praised for the most
part by his Harvard colleague, one Stephen Jay Gould!). Where Dawkins
and Wilson part company with Gould and other critics, such as another
Harvard colleague, geneticist Richard Lewontin, however, is over the
relevance of selfish-gene theory for human behaviour. Only the last
chapter of 'Sociobiology' deals with humans, but its claims and
assumptions led to Gould and Lewontin publishing a strongly-worded
refutation of his ideas.

Wilson's basic error, as they saw it, lay in his making unwarranted
assumptions about apparent similarities between humans and other species
(Wilson is the world expert on ants!). EG: Ants go to 'war'; ants are
genetically programmed; humans go to war. Therefore, humans are
genetically programmed to go to war. Or, Ants take 'slaves'; humans
take slaves... etc.

The human parallels have probably been taken much further by the
disciples of Dawkins and Wilson than they would ever go themselves -
especially by one school of psychologists - which his why I might seem a
little oversensitive to the underlying theory. For example, Pinker, in
'How the Mind Works', cites the old chestnut about stepfathers being far
more likely to murder their stepchildren than are biological fathers to
murder their proper children. Obviously, if it were simply a matter of a
person's genes being involved here, this evidence would provide strong
support for the genetic-determinist position. But there are other,
contaminating variables involved which are so inextricable it would be
impossible to carry out a truly scientific analysis. The main
alternative variables in this example, would be whether the father
(natural or adoptive) actually *wanted* the child in the first place,
and whether the father was around from the child's birth (or even the
planning-stage and pregnancy). Obviously, in practically every case,
the stepfather would *not* have been involved - which makes the
statistic so flawed as to be not worth citing. After his excellent 'The
Language Instinct', I would have expected Pinker to know better.

That was just one example of the sociobiological approach to altruism.
The other big area for gene-theorists in psychology is sexual behaviour.
From studies of chimpanzees and gorillas, I suspect evolutionary
psychology (the current name for sociobiology) has a bit more going for
it in this case. But only at a fairly crude level. And what they are
not sure about, evolutionary psychs. can always concoct a theory to
suit. A typical sex-roles theory:

Males like females with an 'hourglass' figure since slim waist = not
already pregnant, so you won't be wasting your seed here; large breasts
= plenty of sustenance for the young; wide hips = less risk of death
during childbirth. (I am less sure what they say about blonde hair and
blue eyes, but I'm sure any theorist worth the research paper he's
printed on could think of something.)

Females are less concerned with looks in the male than with social
status. Hence the ugly old millionaire (or short fat satguru) can waltz
around with a gorgeous young bimbo on his arm. And as a general rule,
men are polygamous, - since the best strategy for their own genes is to
spread them far and wide, while women are monogamous - since they have a
far greater investment in each egg they nurture full term, and they want
the guy around to keep bringing home the bacon.

Again, there is probably some truth in this model. But think of the
couples you know - and I mean *everybody*. Don't most people simply end
up forming long-term partnerships with the first available person in
their immediate neighborhood they are fairly attracted to, and
reasonably compatable with? Just a matter of pure chance in most cases,
IMHO. And most men are far less adulterous than the model would assume,
while women are generally more adulterous than they ought to be, etc..

As Steven Rose is forever pointing out, our brains our unique in their
vast size, complexity and *flexibility* . Genes interact with
developmental circumstances and environmental/cultural factors to create
near-infinite permutations of outcome. We can choose to be
married/celibate/childless, whatever, and if it *is* our genes that
control our behaviour, then it is probably our 'free-will' gene that is
our sternest taskmaster (now there's a paradox).

(2) 'Punctuated Equilibria'

Dawkins has also been criticised for insisting that natural selection
can only happen at gene-level, rather than at organism-level, while
Gould and Lewontin, and Rose again, have suggested selection can happen
at any level right up to species-level. They have also disagreed about
the typical patterns and rates of change in evolution.

As I understand this argument: say you have two colonies of snails on a
remote island, geographically isolated and differing genetically only
through what they call 'genetic drift'. A volcano erupts wiping out one
of these colonies. It would then be a bit silly to state that the
snails that escaped extinction only did so because they carried a 'gene
for avoiding volcanoes'. Dawkins, of course, must be aware of this sort
of possibilty but downplays it, since - I assume - he believes this kind
of extinction would have been the exception rather than the rule. Gould
and friends believe a great deal of evolutionary change comes down to
nothing more than pure accident, that has absolutely nothing to do with
genetic 'fitness'.

Gould with Niles Eldridge published an important paper raising similar
arguments, describing what they called 'punctuated equilibria'. Both
palaeontologists, they had observed from the fossil record that,
instead of the slow, gradual rate of change you would expect from the
'neo-darwinist' gene mutation model, species actually enjoy long periods
of 'stasis' lasting millions of years, 'punctuated' by sudden
cataclysmic events which would wipe out whole species at a time, leaving
a vacant niche in the ecosystem for rival species to scrabble over. At
such points, evolutionary change within species competing for the vacant
slot is rapid and intense, and following the Dawkins neo-Darwinist
model.

Dawkins, the gradualist, devotes an entire chapter of 'Watchmaker' to
dissing this theory. Ok, he is not entirely dismissive, but obviously
doesn't think the theory terribly worthwhile, since he calls the chapter
'Punctuating Punctuationalism'. But elsewhere in the book, he does
praise Gould, calling his 'Panda's Thumb' essay excellent. I suspect
that - all things considered - Dawkins and Gould 'get along', Rodney
Kingwise, just fine. There is probably more pleasure in scoring points
off those you most respect than those you see as soft targets.

Actually, right now, I feel much more kindly disposed towards Dawkins
than Gould, since, when it comes to religion and the like, Dawkins is
about the only high-profile atheist I know who is prepared to tell it
like it is without pulling any punches. And I am very disappointed with
SJG if he really said what Dawkins quoted him as saying about science
and religion.'
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Date: Sun, May 31, 1998 at 00:25:38 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Nigel on Dawkins & Gould
Message:
Nigel,

Stimulating and well said even if it is minus the Katie jokes!
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Date: Fri, May 29, 1998 at 01:06:17 (EST)
From: *>*..b....The fake
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: doc rawat (mahahaharaj)
Message:
Unfortunately for me I am too booked up to read all the
threads and posts yesterday or today.
I did notice 2 from the fake doc and I read them.

he wants to deflect attention from him and ask what motivation
we might have had.

Well, lets look at HIS motivation. By his own admission he
was so smart that he avioded any religious and spiritual
part of the whole thing. He thinks he realized that he is god
when he is sitting trying not to think. And with that
as the basis of his self image, he feels that he can be angry
and yell at people and he doesnt care what thier reaction is
or how they feel. HEY! HE is just being god and jesus and
buddha used to act like that he claims.

HE wasn't confused by all the stuff that was said at the events
and all the lies that were told. HE was completely clear of
any blemishes of flaw or imperfection and his pride and ego
are distainful and view with contempt ANY and ALL of the
people he was involved with. The three brothers were mentioned
and THEY were dismissed as laughable idiots left in the dust.
One was contemptuosly reffered to as a taxi driver. NOW,
I know a taxi driver here and he is vastly more sane and
real than the godhead doc.
What the hell is bad about a guy who had a band changeing
careers and driving a cab? An honest man makeing an honest
living, visiting his mom, haveing kids, loveing his wife,
getting over his nutty childhood with the god-incarnate
family. What is the reason for being contemptuos about
bhole ji for christ-sake? Well, EVERYONE is less and lower than
the lord of the universe I guess, and I guess the fake lord is
so insecure he has to smash down everyone else to somehow
keep himself on top. At least in his own mind since that ain't
reality.

Raja was dismissed as a guy just riding on rawats coattails.
After fucking his wife, makeing him live away from his mom
for the rest of his life, and putting him through hell
many times, he doesnt care about the guy and views him as
a hanger on who is dependent on rawat(doc).
Nice. real nice.

Dont forget, this is the same guy that for all these years has
been in the state of 'I am god'.
I think MY motivation must have been to be like mr. 'I AM GOD'
so that I could hate everyone else like the god incarnate
doc(M RAWAT) does.

To him, and clearly by his words, we are idiots that confused
outselves and 'PERHAPS we were following confused premies and
we should be angry and yell at THEM' then he said 'I DID
and some thought I was being non-spiritual, too bad for them.'

HE wants to know OUR motive. And wants us to just move on
in our lives. WELL, isnt that nice, HE has been so clear
about this whole thing for ALL the years he has been around
and now he doesn't want us to -waste our time- but we should
wake up to the new age delusion hindu buddist eastern thinking
misperception of life and either join him in the 'I AM GOD'
reality or just move on and give up this silly non
spiritual trip here, and just let him have his way,
because HE is this all important human, and HE is waiting for the
whole world to wake up to realise that HE is the great
lord of the universe. HE deserves his feet kissed.
It doesnt matter what you think. It doesnt matter what actually
happened. It doesnt matter because what he does, and what he
says, IS GOD doing it IS GOD saying it.

OH yeah fake doc rawat, we are so stupid you can count on us
to just follow you off the internet and find our
motivation. Ignore YOUR words and deeds, and we will move on
and just enjoy this life.
Again, you want to repaint reality, but go inside and use some
of your god powers to do what you want. Because we are
free of your lies now. And your delusion.
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Date: Fri, May 29, 1998 at 22:37:16 (EST)
From: Sir David
Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com
To: *>*..b....The fake
Subject: doc rawat (mahahaharaj)
Message:
I think what Maharaji does owe is a very big apology. He needs to apologise for making some very peace & love, impressionable teenagers believe he was God. He needs to apologise to them for ensnaring them into his cult.

But I doubt that he ever will. He will go on and we will continue with our lives and this drama will be unknown, exept by the few that were convinced.

Personally, I think the future lies in letting as many people as possible know the techniques of meditation and the value of them. That is my main interest in all of this. Soon I will have a web page set up which will talk about the techniques and how I've found them valuable in my life. I don't practise the techniques exactly as Maharaji describes them and I think they can be subjected to a great deal of personal modification or simplication. However, the package of four techniques is a damn good one although I don't think Maharaji himself should take too much credit for this as the knowledge package was formulated by other gurus who became Maharaji's Mahatmas.

I have no desire to get at Maharaji but I do want what I have learned to be known and used by other people. I don't see Maharaji doing this and I think it's down to me now.
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Date: Sat, May 30, 1998 at 22:28:20 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Sir David
Subject: Cheddar initiator
Message:
Well, if it makes you feel any better, Cheddar, the publication that you sent me on meditation was great! I consider you and everyone who spoke with me that first night to be my instructors :) I think it was you, Katie, Joy, Mr. Ex, Brian, JW etc. (Jim was on sabatical) In fact you were the first person to respond to my first post and you really helped me with respect to the Knowledge techniques. I think that your website is a great idea and I hope that this site is going to link on to yours.

I am getting sick of talking about Maharaji myself. Guess I'm healed. I do think that this site is so important because of all of the things I have heard from Jude, Memphis Belle, Carol, Gerry, charles and all other new posters. I just don't have the time right now to post like I used to. I hope that others will continue to do it, though. I'll be reading and will butt in from time to time, I'm sure. I'm not officially on vacation for another week. Please Email me and thanks for everything. I know you are going to help other people. Probably initiate more that M. No heavy trips laid on them either. At least your VPs (virtual premies) won't have to guard any cheese.

The first VP
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Date: Sat, May 30, 1998 at 23:33:41 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: So long, Slim
Message:
Dear VP
It sounds like you are not going to be here as much. I suggested to someone else that I think the 'Greatest hits' idea is really good, because when people post a definiitve thread on their experiences and/or beliefs about knowledge, these can be very helpful for others to read, even if those original contributors have to get on with their lives!
It has been heaven for me the past few weeks, and I know I can't post here as a substitute for life. Yet I have gained so much and probaby will still keep posting until I'm crystal clear, and have said all I want to/need to say (or India & Pakistan start a nuclear war). God bless us all

You are an angel - I'm sure you'll drop in occasionally

Love to you and your family
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Date: Sun, May 31, 1998 at 16:48:48 (EST)
From: Veep -almost vacation
Email: None
To: Judex
Subject: So long, Slim
Message:
Jude,

Thank you so much for that very kind post. Nicer words could not be spoken to anyone. It is very high praise and means a lot to me. I won't leave here for good, but I won't be around as much as I used to for a while. Off an on is more like it. I'll still be reading though.

Jude, please stay here as long as you need to. I have been here for about six months myself. You just got here and I don't think you need to be in any hurry to go if you need to talk here. I have a really really busy life, and I still like to talk here, whether I need it or not. I like a lot of folks here. I consider them to be my friends if we live near or not.

You are an angel, too. Don't forget that. :)
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Date: Sun, May 31, 1998 at 23:09:09 (EST)
From: *>*...b
Email: None
To: Sir David
Subject: Sir David the Free
Message:
Hello Sir David,
Go for it. I think you make a honest statement in your
work and that will be a good contrast to the vile
rawat family.

I think you are incorrect about not many folks
finding out about our trip.
According to ev they are in 90 countries and resistance to
the propaganda will surface in many of those places.
They will look here for info and they WILL get it.

We will 'utilize it'.
rawat is STILL going for lord status and wants a religion
led by him and his family and the comments here by the so-called
doc discount the reality that rawat at the programs pushes
the fantasy importance of the 'master' in a very big way
even now and the music and the old footage are used.

I am glad you are doing what you plan.
I have other ideas that 'doc' has helped show me are proper.
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Date: Fri, May 29, 1998 at 23:08:31 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: *>*..b....The fake
Subject: doc rawat (mahahaharaj)
Message:
Bill,

Before I go out tonight I just wanted to say that even though I think you're wrong about Doc being Marjie, I think the thrust of your post otherwise is right on. Just wanted to tell you that.

Jim
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Date: Thurs, May 28, 1998 at 22:29:42 (EST)
From: Kitty Kat
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Lord of the Universe Video
Message:
Dear Ex-premies,
My mom and I just watched the Lord of the Universe video and i couldn't stop laughing. i couldn't believe that my mother was actually serious when she said she was in a cult but now i think that i have a better perspective on my mother. No wonder she's so damn nuts. i dont believe anyone in my generation could be conned by such a 'guru'. of course we are all so violent that peace and love are rather foreign concepts to us.i personally could never see myself following some guy in a shiny costume around kissing his feet and saying he was god. i don't know, maybe that's just me.
~Kitty Kat
(eb's daughter)
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Date: Fri, May 29, 1998 at 00:30:06 (EST)
From: eb
Email: None
To: Kitty Kat
Subject: LOTU video-clarification
Message:
For the record, I was 'nuts' long before I met M.
eb
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Date: Fri, May 29, 1998 at 08:42:26 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: eb
Subject: eb
Message:
Dear eb,
First of all I thought Kitty Kate was our own Katie and was reading, wide eyed that she watched a video with her mom!!! To funny!
Also I just wanted to let you know that I've sent you a short note twice and received failure to deliver notices, haven't tried yet today.
Have a lovely weekend,
Robyn
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Date: Fri, May 29, 1998 at 08:22:06 (EST)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Kitty Kat
Subject: Lord of the Universe Video
Message:
I dont believe anyone in my generation could be conned by such a 'guru'.

There are people in your generation that can be, and will be, conned. Either by Maharaji or someone similar. You even know these people, although you might not know their names.

In school they were the ones you were most likely to forget. They were basically quiet people, and probably shy. They didn't make the cheerleading squad or even attempt the tryouts, although their days were filled with fantasies about it. They didn't play football or basketball, and probably didn't bring dates to the dances. They were the 'strange' kids.

Most didn't have happy home-lives. Some were sexually molested. Others physically abused. They kept a low profile intentionally, and lacked self-confidence and self-worth. Their parents swept secrets under the rug and didn't laugh with them about their own pasts over videos.

You are one of the lucky ones. Your mother is able and willing to share her own mistakes with you. You will be able to go off and make entirely NEW mistakes, but are prepared to see through conmen like Maharaji for what they are - people who prey on those others have forgotten by offering them the promise of love.
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Date: Fri, May 29, 1998 at 08:49:26 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: Brian
Subject: Lord of the Universe Video
Message:
Dear Brian,
I would like to amend your statement above. I do fit into parts of your description but I was not shy by any means I was voted class clown for god sake! I was friends with the cool rich kids and the cool middle class kids and the nerds and the dorks and even the 'untouchables'. Maybe that was just the flip side of being the shy quite type, ya know. I have heard that comedians are very insecure and neurotic and I surely fit that description then and though a bit more secure it fits even today.
My peers didn't think I was weird but at the age of 39, my mom told me that she had always thought I was a weird kid which I really took, coming from her, to be a complement to me.
Robyn
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Date: Fri, May 29, 1998 at 16:30:22 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: robyn, brian, everyone
Subject: awakenings
Message:
Interesting about what your mum said. Mine often said 'undermining' things to me, but I never realisd they were. I believed her! I had no stable 'others' like relatives (because we kept moving) to give me another view on a regular basis. Perhaps that's why I got so attached to the nice teachers, when I found them, and loved to learn, because the learning didnt come with any strings or conditions. It doesn't say, no, you can't learn me, you are emotionally disturbed. So in the last years of primary school I read books under the desk in class, and at recess. I could say more about my family but won't. I notice no-one else says as much detail about their personal lives as me (I think) and that probably means it's inappropriate here (but I have trouble telling in many situations what is appropriate behaviour).

Now my mum is old and has left her troubles behind. I used to take her to programs and she liked M. I am going through a stage where I need to start seeing that I can still have my spiritual growth with or without Maharaji. Nothing I have has been 'taken away' because he has been unmasked to some extent.

For instance, as Brian mentioned, about types of people who are going to be sucked in to M - true in my case (always a big difference in how I felt inside, and how I behaved socially and outwardly in the world. That is where I felt a cripple). But I think perhaps any new perspective is good, and I do think M has good intentions, even if that is changing, and also remember he is probably having a mid-life crisis. I think that brings on material greed - because you can't help avoid your mortality, the loss of your virility/attractiveness, feelings of powerlessness etc - especially if your foundations are not strong.

When I went to India I was about 27. I was fed up with all my conditioning. I sat on a beach and watched the rhythms of life of the fishermen and the village people. I felt so liberated. I think in some ways there are good things in the 'hindu' mythology, and perhaps 'damaged' people are good at picking the good bits and ignoring the rest. Hence, I hope other's awakenings that M is perhaps not god will be gentle and gradual, as mine was.
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Date: Fri, May 29, 1998 at 22:16:14 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: Judex
Subject: Awakenings!
Message:
Dear Judex,
I am here at an odd hour, my grounded daughter talked me into coming to job 1 so she could email her boyfriend, like she'd have to twist my arm!
I don't know about others here, but I really think I do and I know that I think it is good for you or anyone for that matter, to say what you need to say. I have written lots of details about myself and, I think, we each feel comfortable in letting out what we need out because we know there is a lot of support out here.
Awaken to that one honey! (that was meant to be playful, not snotty, that pesky written word!)
Robyn
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Date: Fri, May 29, 1998 at 09:29:15 (EST)
From: John
Email: None
To: Kitty Kat
Subject: Lord of the Universe Video
Message:
Hey, there's nothing new under the sun. We weren't the first idiots, nor will we be the last.

In my church's high school youth group every few years someone runs off and joins a cult. The last few times they have been kids who've had far from ideal home lives.

I don't see it as all that bad especially if life at home is truly unreasonable, I mean where does a child go who is being persecuted at home?

By persecuted I mean, being told to clean up after themselves, Hang the wet towel up- don't just leave it wadded up on the floor, Take the dirty dishes from the t.v. room back into the kitchen and get them near the sink area,
Put the cap back on the milk and put it BACK into the refrigerator.
That kind of stuff...
heh heh, just kidding.
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Date: Fri, May 29, 1998 at 12:31:03 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Kitty Kat
Subject: Lord of the Universe Video
Message:
Hi Kitty -
I watched the video with my husband and he had the same laughing reaction you did (he thought parts of it were really boring, too - did you?) He is 39, so it's probably not just generationally related. I think that there were and are just certain people, like your mom, and me who were susceptible to that kind of thing. I know that I got into the whole M trip at age 16 because: I really wanted to be happy, I really wanted to get out of a bad situation I was in (drugs and sex and weird spirituality), and I really wanted to help save the world, which I thought was about to end at any minute. I WANTED M to be god so he would make everything OK. (Plus my parents were both practicing alcoholics at that time and I really wanted to get away from them!)

Anyway, I commend you for sitting through the entire video with your mom - that was a nice thing to do. And it's great that it gave you a better perspective on her (I just hope it was a good one!)

Regards,
Katie
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Date: Tues, Jun 02, 1998 at 03:21:24 (EST)
From: carol
Email: None
To: Katie and Kitty Kat
Subject: I fit the profile
Message:
Katie and Kitty, Katie just described most of my motivations for being a part of this cult. I had been a sceptic and never believed it was a cult until recently. I also fit many of the characteristics from Brian's post. I was a good student and 'good citizen' at school but there was a lot of family turmoil and sexual abuse. I was voted 'Princess' of the 4th grade, probably for being nice and kind of funny, like Robyn. By 6th grade and my parents divorce and a couple of school changes, I was pretty quiet and never again 'popular'. I was married at 17, a mother at 18. I also used pot and LSD from the ages of 17 to 21 and lived communally with friends. I travelled to anti-war demonstrations in 1969 and 1970 at Golden Gate Park. Then Maharaj Ji came to town in 1972 when I was 21 and I got knowledge and believed in Him!! I left my husband who was skeptical and moved to a premie house. Married a premie in 1975 and had 2 more kids......and on and on. My youngest son got knowledge when he was 16. He's now 29 and needs to make up his own mind about M and knowledge.
carol
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Date: Fri, May 29, 1998 at 12:33:52 (EST)
From: eb
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: LOTU
Message:
Good morning,
I watched the video as soon as I got home yesterday. Thanks VP! I remember seeing it on PBS a long time ago. My best friend from high school watched it with me that time, and I remember being embarrassed when they revealed the techniques.

I'm so far removed from it now (thanks a great deal to this forum) that I was able to laugh with my daughter yesterday. I kept looking for a familiar face, maybe even my own. And then I realized that I could look at any of the long-haired hippie chicks and see myself. My daughter said we didn't look any different from the Heaven's Gate followers. And the part where the Christians and the Hare Krishnas got in on the action really cracked her up.

She kept complaining about the quality of the video. Maybe I'll take her to see the new and improved slick Sunday nite video here in town. Naaa, I better not. I might be accused of torturing my kid.
Love to you all,
eb
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Date: Fri, May 29, 1998 at 12:40:00 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: eb
Subject: LOTU
Message:
Hi eb - apparently the copies I made were not all that great. I made them from my copy, which is a copy of the original (which may have not been of the greatest quality, either. We're talking 1974 here). I'm assuming you could still see everything on the video! Anyway, according to VP, you cannot make decent copies from the copy you have - sorry.

I kept looking for people I knew too, and everyone looked SO MUCH alike. It was weird - well not weird because we were all told to dress a certain way.

Tell your daughter that part of the reason that we all looked so strange is because we were constantly trying to remember Holy Name. Maybe that's why M dropped that rule!
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Date: Fri, May 29, 1998 at 13:15:14 (EST)
From: eb
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: LOTU
Message:
Hi Katie,

The tape itself is okay; my daughter was referring to the camera work. Oh BTW, she picked up on the 'black and white/color--Wizard of Oz' theme before I did. Duh. I'm going to show it to my older kids this weekend, the ones who have seen M several times in the past. Maybe some repressed memories will emerge.

Speaking of clothing-We really got a kick out of Bhole Ji's attire. Somehow I don't remember that suit.

'...part of the reason that we all looked so strange is because we were constantly trying to remember Holy Name.' And doing nectar really made us look wierd, too.

eb
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Date: Fri, May 29, 1998 at 13:23:46 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: eb
Subject: Bhole Ji's suit
Message:
eb - I can't believe you don't remember that suit! He wore it on the second night of Millenium, and Maharaji also came out in his crown and red velvet jacket on the second night. This led to excited wonderings among the premies about what they were going to wear for the third and culminating night of Millenium. They wore the same outfits again, which was sort of a let down, but was interpreted as being because 'Maharaji wanted us to know that that wasn't important.' Or something like that...
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Date: Fri, May 29, 1998 at 13:28:49 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Hilarious, Katie
Message:
Katie,

Sometimes I remember that YOU are the funniest person here. Intentionally and even unintentionally, you crack me up.
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Date: Fri, May 29, 1998 at 13:31:31 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Hilarious, Katie
Message:
Thanks, Jim, but it is a true story. I can't figure out if that makes it more or less funny.
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Date: Fri, May 29, 1998 at 17:34:52 (EST)
From: Larry
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Bhole Ji's suit
Message:
I was with Bhole Ji during that entire time. Basically the people around him would clean his clothes each time he touched them in any way. Even if he pulled it out of the closet and didn't wear it.

This was their idea, not his. He liked that suit and felt very comfortable in it. I think he hid it from us so that no one would take it when he wanted it.

Larry
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Date: Fri, May 29, 1998 at 18:29:42 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Larry
Subject: Bhole Ji's personality (and IQ
Message:
Larry,

What was the big BJ like? Did you actually believe the Vishnu, Lord of Music trip? Did he? Do you know, by the way, that he's featured on Satpal's (BBJ's) web page as the ONLY brother of the son of Shri Hans who took over his mission to bring peace to the world in 1966 (i.e. BBJ)? Was BJ stupid?

Could you tell us all what happened when the family split? Have you kept in touch with BJ or anyone else from that parade? What's your social security number? Do you like answering questions?

Thanks,

More questions to follow....
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Date: Fri, May 29, 1998 at 18:52:20 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Larry
Subject: Bhole Ji's suit
Message:
That's kind of a sad story (really). I can't imagine having to hide your clothes so no one would take them to the cleaners.

BTW, as I am sure you know, Elvis had a gold suit like that (he hated it though!)
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Date: Fri, May 29, 1998 at 22:22:50 (EST)
From: charles
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Bhole Ji, et al
Message:
The only memories I have of Bhole Ji is that he looked pretty clumsy, a real lunk, and the hateful look he gave us when we got close to his house in Houston. It was forbidden to do that but I've never been good at following the rules.
When I cut my hair and shaved in order to be better at prachar I didn't run into anyone but long haired leaping gnomes and they sure weren't going to listen to me. Not long thereafter I grew it all back. My favorite bunch were the premies in the Rose St. house in Seattle anyway, all unreformed hippies. That clean jean stuff bothered me and bothers me still. Telluride is a kind of hippie outpost.
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Date: Sun, May 31, 1998 at 02:33:37 (EST)
From: Mark
Email: None
To: Larry
Subject: Bhole Ji's suit
Message:
is that larry the bass player ?
your brother was a Bostonian ?
if it is, you've got some tales to tell. . .
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Date: Sun, May 31, 1998 at 07:01:09 (EST)
From: Anon
Email: None
To: Larry
Subject: to Larry
Message:
I think I remember you at a friends house (a guitarist) Dick Park(e)? in Santa Monica, 1975 ish. I think you were a bass player. Anyone know Dick Park?? Nice guy.
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Date: Tues, Jun 02, 1998 at 03:26:54 (EST)
From: carol
Email: None
To: Larry
Subject: Larry?
Message:
Hi,Are you Larry LaCom? If so, remember me? Carol Reynolds then Clausnitzer, now CarolBruce
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Date: Fri, May 29, 1998 at 15:10:41 (EST)
From: bftb
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: LOTU
Message:
They -told- you to dress a certain way?That's news to me!I always thought it was just a case of monkey see monkey do,I never knew it was officially mandated.

What exactly did they tell premies to wear,and if you didn't want to comply what would happen?(if anything)

Thanks
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Date: Fri, May 29, 1998 at 15:15:38 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: bftb
Subject: LOTU
Message:
For one thin, the sisters, at least in the ashram, were to wear long dresses, until that was changed in about 1977 or so. They were also supposed to wear high collars.
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Date: Fri, May 29, 1998 at 15:53:49 (EST)
From: John
Email: None
To: bftb
Subject: LOTU
Message:
Oh yeah, fur sure, we were not supposed to have long hair, and we all had to wear ties.

It was a carefully orchestrated reaction to the misguided freedom of the hippie movement during the 60's which made us imagine that we were achieving freedom by growing our hair and looking unkempt and wearing wierd clothes.
GMJ came along and we all wanted to imitate HIM. He looked very neat and presentable. He was here to bring the Knowledge to the world and he wanted US to help him, right? So for US to help him we had to make ourselves look like the rest of the people in society so that they would listen to us, right.
Right!
Of course, cutting our hairs and scrubbing our faces made EVERYONE listen to us and EVERYONE rec'd K and we all lived happily ever after!!

...became a dork in '73 for the Lord
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Date: Fri, May 29, 1998 at 16:10:21 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: John
Subject: Polyester doubleknit
Message:
In '73, Denver got a hold of some absolutely dreadful polyester doubleknit suits and took orders from all the ashrams. I think we got about twenty in Vancouver alone. They were amazing. Can you imagine? But they went with the raincoats we bought en masse in Vancouver. Big, boring and beige, they were perfect for sticking buttons in and that's what we did. I think at one point I had as many as 10 or 15 buttons, some of them bigger than grapefruits, with pictures of Maharaji and the whole Hoyl Family.

We did all this -- and cut our hair, of course ( abigger thing than any of us can probably ever remember) -- for one purpose: to be relatable. It didn't work. The Vancouver hip paper, The Georgia Straight, nicknamed us 'gurunoids' and the terms spread worldwide, I think.
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Date: Fri, May 29, 1998 at 16:37:09 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Polyester doubleknit
Message:
I recall that during the renaissance of 1976 I grew my beard back, which I had shaved off to receive knowledge. It wasn't long or anything, as I kept it neatly trimmed. I remember Ann Johnson telling me that none of the people around BM had beards and that therefore I shouldn't either. I kind of ignored her, since I considered her crazy anyway, but when I got to IHQ in Miami, Dennis Marciniak said I had to shave it off, because I would be representing BM out 'in the world' and Florida was a conservative place. So, I did, and felt I was making yet one more sacrifice for the lord of the universe.

Yes, I recall the polyester suits (a la Robert Hall) and also other clothes bought en masse for the ashram residents, including blue jeans to wear to Hans Jayanti in the Kissimee swamp and underwear for the brothers bought in bulk. Divine Sales also provided a lot of the apparel we wore, even if it was previously worn and didn't exactly fit.

In Miami, Leah Lundberg had the full time job of buying clothes for the ashram premies. Unfortunately, her taste left something to be desired, and she, for example, bought about 200 pairs of blue jeans with leather triangles on the back pockets. They looked like she had bought them at a Puerto Rican discount store. It was quite embarrassing to wear them. It was also weird because you would show up in the satsang hall and find half the people there had the same clothes you did.
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Date: Fri, May 29, 1998 at 16:29:43 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: bftb
Subject: LOTU
Message:
We were told that Maharaji wanted the women to wear long skirts or dresses. We were also told that Maharaji wanted us to look 'sharp' (which I assume meant 'straight'. This is an impossible fashion combination for women. We used to wear stuff like blazers with long plaid skirts, and things like that.

Also, the guys were sometimes asked to cut their hair before they could receive K. I remember cutting a friend of mine's hair before he could receive knowledge, and getting him a pretty awful polyester suit jacket, and one of my dad's old ties to wear (he was, at this time, sleeping out of doors, so he didn't have an extensive wardrobe.

The only people who absolutely HAD to dress a certain way were the ashram premies (I'm not sure what would happen to them if they didn't). I didn't live in the ashram, but I dressed that way, as did most of the non-ashram premies, because I wanted to do what Maharaji wanted and I wanted to be accepted by the other premies as a devoted premie.
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Date: Fri, May 29, 1998 at 16:30:30 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Katie/eb
Subject: LOTU
Message:
Hello, ladies.

I couldn't get a decent copy of that tape as I was using an old camcorder (the big ones, remember those?) hooked to my VCR to reproduce it. Maybe if you took it somewhere, they could do a better job, I don't know. The quality was pretty poor to start with--from the sheer age of the thing, the technology used, etc. But wasn't it fun?

I thought that my parents had made me watch LOTU when it came on PBS a long time ago. When I watched it I had no recollection of it, except for some of the music. Also they revealed the techniques in the film and since I never knew those before finding this site, I surely didn't watch the entire show before. VP
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Date: Fri, May 29, 1998 at 13:01:24 (EST)
From: eb
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: BTW
Message:
I asked Kitty Kat to post her thoughts about the video here. She doesn't normally visit our forum (at least I don't think she does). But I'll tell her she has some responses to her message to read.

John, you're so funny, and so right. Kitty Kat feels that if she has to go to school, I'm being too domineering and authoritarian. She's so passionate about how horribly she's treated (oh, I guess I better not let her read this post). But seriously, the last time I punished her, I had to step through knee-deep trash to remove her TV/VCR and phone for a week. Sheesh!

eb
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Date: Fri, May 29, 1998 at 17:36:14 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Kitty Kat
Subject: Generation Gap
Message:
Kitty Kat,
I think it's good that you wouldn't be conned by a cult leader. Your mom must have done something right, eh? I think it's great that you have such faith in your generation, too, because you are going to be running things when I am old!!!! I do know that some people in your generation join gangs and do all kinds of crazy violent things for initiations, etc. Give me peace and love any day! Just leave out the guru :)
VP
Had to walk many miles through three feet of snow with no shoes on in order to get to school...snicker!
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