Ex-Premie.Org

Forum III Archive # 11

From: Jun 7, 1998

To: Jun 15, 1998

Page: 2 Of: 5



'Emperor of the Spiritual -:- Domain of the Age' -:- Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 22:48:53 (EST)
__carol -:- Domain of the Age' -:- Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 04:31:32 (EST)
____Scott T. -:- Millenial hangovers -:- Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 09:49:08 (EST)
______Scott T. -:- Millennial Hangovers -:- Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 20:49:42 (EST)
____shah -:- Domain of the Age' - Bahai -:- Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 10:50:14 (EST)
______carol -:- Domain of the Age' - Bahai -:- Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 18:50:47 (EST)
______Mirabai -:- Domain of the Age' - Bahai -:- Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 00:45:59 (EST)
__Jethro -:- Domain of the Age' -:- Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 03:02:20 (EST)
____Anon -:- Domain of the Age' -:- Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 05:34:00 (EST)
______Scott T. -:- Domain of the Age' -:- Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 10:55:42 (EST)
________Anon -:- Domain of the Age' -:- Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 13:32:36 (EST)
__________carol -:- Domain of the Age' -:- Sun, Jun 14, 1998 at 00:23:25 (EST)
______Jethro -:- Domain of the Age' -:- Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 11:23:17 (EST)
________Anon -:- Domain of the Age' -:- Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 14:50:08 (EST)
__________Iola -:- Domain of the Age' -:- Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 17:05:46 (EST)
____________Anon -:- Domain of the Age' -:- Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 18:56:12 (EST)
______________Anon -:- Domain of the Age' -:- Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 20:08:49 (EST)
________________Judex -:- Great material -:- Sun, Jun 14, 1998 at 16:34:41 (EST)
____________Joy -:- Domain of the Age' -:- Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 21:00:45 (EST)
______________mark -:- Domain of the Age' -:- Sun, Jun 14, 1998 at 12:36:30 (EST)
________________Judex -:- Thank you, mark -:- Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 08:05:01 (EST)

Iola -:- Quitting Knowledge and MJ -:- Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 16:49:38 (EST)
__Jean-Michel -:- overcome your fears -:- Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 17:24:48 (EST)
__majic -:- Quitting Knowledge and MJ -:- Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 17:50:16 (EST)
____Brian -:- Quitting Knowledge and MJ -:- Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 20:44:52 (EST)
____Judex -:- Quitting Knowledge and MJ -:- Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 00:01:10 (EST)
__Selena -:- Quitting Knowledge and MJ -:- Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 17:59:01 (EST)
__petebear -:- Quitting Knowledge and MJ -:- Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 20:32:14 (EST)
____Selena -:- Homer joins a cult -:- Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 21:59:39 (EST)
__JW -:- Quitting Knowledge and MJ -:- Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 20:52:53 (EST)
____Keith -:- Quitting Knowledge and MJ -:- Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 21:34:03 (EST)
____Rick -:- LOTU -:- Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 10:20:47 (EST)
__RT -:- Quitting Knowledge and MJ -:- Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 21:47:42 (EST)
__Robyn -:- Quitting Knowledge and MJ -:- Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 22:11:16 (EST)
__Joy -:- Quitting Knowledge and MJ -:- Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 23:27:16 (EST)
__Memphis Belle -:- Quitting Knowledge and MJ -:- Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 00:15:09 (EST)
____Iola -:- Quitting Knowledge and MJ -:- Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 00:39:38 (EST)
______Keith -:- Quitting Knowledge and MJ -:- Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 03:18:09 (EST)
________Judex -:- Angry response to game playing -:- Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 09:25:05 (EST)
__________Judex -:- Angry response to game playing -:- Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 09:39:45 (EST)
____________Judex -:- to Keith - one last thing -:- Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 09:52:46 (EST)
______________Scott T. -:- to Keith - one last thing -:- Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 10:14:20 (EST)
______________Cheddar -:- to Keith - one last thing -:- Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 13:03:43 (EST)
________________eb -:- to Judex - YOU GO GIRL!!! -:- Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 13:20:05 (EST)
__________________carol -:- to Judex - YOU GO GIRL!!! -:- Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 18:57:38 (EST)
____________________Scott T. -:- to Judex - YOU GO GIRL!!! -:- Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 02:38:48 (EST)
________________Angry Cheddar -:- LISTEN HERE, KEITH!!! -:- Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 13:26:52 (EST)
__________________Katie -:- LISTEN HERE, CHEDD! -:- Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 13:50:36 (EST)
____________________Sorry Cheddar -:- LISTEN HERE, CHEDD! -:- Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 14:32:32 (EST)
__________________The mild one -:- LISTEN HERE, KEITH!!! -:- Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 13:59:59 (EST)
______________Selena -:- to Keith - one last thing -:- Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 15:05:19 (EST)
______________Stephen Harris -:- to Keith - one last thing -:- Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 19:25:41 (EST)
________________Judex -:- to Keith - one last thing -:- Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 08:16:46 (EST)
__________________Stephen Harris -:- to Keith - one last thing -:- Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 17:53:04 (EST)
______________Peter -:- to Keith - one last thing -:- Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 21:17:16 (EST)
________________Scott T. -:- Judex's flight -:- Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 02:46:38 (EST)
__________________Judex -:- Judex's flight -:- Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 07:40:14 (EST)
________________Judex -:- expressing feelings -:- Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 08:30:57 (EST)
________Brian -:- Quitting Knowledge and MJ -:- Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 10:02:29 (EST)
____Judex -:- to Memphis Belle -:- Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 08:00:05 (EST)
__Bill Cooper -:- Quitting Knowledge and MJ -:- Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 03:45:00 (EST)
____Cheddar -:- Quitting Knowledge and MJ -:- Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 05:18:33 (EST)
______Iola -:- Quitting Knowledge and MJ -:- Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 10:11:48 (EST)
________Scott T. -:- Quitting Knowledge and MJ -:- Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 10:23:08 (EST)
__________Selena -:- Quitting Knowledge and MJ -:- Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 15:08:22 (EST)
________bftb -:- Quitting Knowledge and MJ -:- Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 11:50:34 (EST)
__________Gerry -:- Quitting Knowledge and MJ -:- Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 12:25:05 (EST)
__________Jean-Michel -:- Asking for donations: how to -:- Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 13:12:14 (EST)
____________bftb -:- Asking for donations: how to -:- Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 13:22:45 (EST)
______________Iola -:- Donations -:- Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 15:52:08 (EST)
________________eb -:- Donations -:- Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 16:21:41 (EST)
__________________Selena -:- Donations -:- Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 16:27:01 (EST)
____________________JW -:- To eb and Selena -:- Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 16:50:14 (EST)
______________________eb -:- To JW and Selena -:- Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 17:12:31 (EST)
________________________JW and eb -:- To JW and Selena -:- Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 17:22:34 (EST)
__________________________Selena -:- huh? -:- Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 17:27:54 (EST)
__________________________eb -:- Chains/No Whips -:- Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 17:31:17 (EST)
____________________________Selena -:- Chains/No Whips -:- Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 18:29:16 (EST)
________________Scott T. -:- BM is a big fat idiot... -:- Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 17:15:48 (EST)
________________JW -:- Donations -:- Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 19:21:28 (EST)
________________Jean-Michel -:- EV's non profit status -:- Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 09:21:21 (EST)
________Iola -:- Accessing Old Burke files -:- Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 15:42:51 (EST)
________Iola -:- Quitting Knowledge - to Iola -:- Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 20:04:33 (EST)
__________Judex -:- To Iola post from me -:- Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 20:13:13 (EST)
__________Scott T. -:- Asking direct questions -:- Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 23:08:48 (EST)
______Iola -:- Quitting Knowledge and MJ -:- Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 15:36:36 (EST)
________Katie -:- Finding your way around site -:- Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 15:56:59 (EST)
________bb -:- lola lita -:- Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 14:04:38 (EST)
__________Iola -:- lola lita -:- Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 16:26:33 (EST)
__Paul -:- Quitting Knowledge and MJ -:- Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 10:59:41 (EST)
____carol -:- Quitting Knowledge and MJ -:- Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 19:10:08 (EST)
____red heels -:- Blaming Knowledge and MJ -:- Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 22:46:26 (EST)
______IolaN -:- Does this mean I'll ... -:- Sun, Jun 14, 1998 at 01:55:00 (EST)
______Judex -:- Blaming Knowledge and MJ -:- Sun, Jun 14, 1998 at 07:20:12 (EST)
______Rick -:- Blaming Knowledge and MJ -:- Sun, Jun 14, 1998 at 12:04:20 (EST)
________Iola -:- Blaming Knowledge and MJ -:- Sun, Jun 14, 1998 at 13:24:36 (EST)
__________Selena -:- Blaming Knowledge and MJ -:- Sun, Jun 14, 1998 at 14:02:22 (EST)
__VP -:- Quitting Knowledge and MJ -:- Sun, Jun 14, 1998 at 15:21:44 (EST)

Rafael -:- Rafael thanks all who answered -:- Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 15:33:03 (EST)
__Robyn -:- Rafael thanks all who answered -:- Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 15:48:55 (EST)
____Keith -:- Rafael thanks all who answered -:- Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 19:52:24 (EST)
__eb -:- Rafael thanks all who answered -:- Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 16:32:17 (EST)
____Keith -:- To Robyn and Raphael -:- Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 20:39:34 (EST)
______Keith -:- To Katie -:- Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 21:05:01 (EST)
______Robyn -:- To Robyn and Raphael -:- Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 22:26:33 (EST)
______carol -:- To Keith -:- Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 05:03:14 (EST)
__JW -:- Rafael thanks all who answered -:- Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 21:00:44 (EST)
____Gerry -:- Rafael thanks all who answered -:- Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 22:20:40 (EST)
______Gerry -:- PS to Rafael -:- Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 22:26:27 (EST)
__Sir David of Cheddar -:- OK I was wrong -:- Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 22:20:40 (EST)
____carol -:- Well said,David -:- Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 05:07:41 (EST)
__Mirabai -:- Rafael thanks all who answered -:- Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 06:27:53 (EST)
____VP -:- Rafael, you be the judge -:- Sun, Jun 14, 1998 at 15:08:10 (EST)
______Iola -:- The Fix -:- Sun, Jun 14, 1998 at 18:22:13 (EST)

Jean-Michel -:- Hans Yog Prakash 16-19 -:- Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 10:36:39 (EST)
__Jean-Michel -:- Hans Yog Prakash 20-23 -:- Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 10:39:46 (EST)
____Jean-Michel -:- Hans Yog Prakash 24-26 -:- Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 10:44:56 (EST)
______Jean-Michel -:- Hans Yog Prakash 27-29 -:- Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 10:47:26 (EST)
________Jean-Michel -:- Hans Yog Prakash 30 .... -:- Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 10:49:47 (EST)
__red heels -:- Hans Yog Prakash 16-19 -:- Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 16:42:22 (EST)
____carol -:- Hans Yog Prakash 16-19 -:- Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 02:59:26 (EST)
______JM -:- First pages -:- Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 03:17:54 (EST)
________red heels -:- First pages -:- Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 10:33:00 (EST)
____Jean-Michel -:- The BM's source of inspiration -:- Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 04:45:04 (EST)
______red heels -:- The BM's source of inspiration -:- Sun, Jun 14, 1998 at 00:31:23 (EST)

Bovine commensurables -:- Hey Bill boy -:- Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 06:58:42 (EST)
__Hey Bill Burke -:- Sir D can't read your messages -:- Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 10:14:49 (EST)

Judex -:- Cosmic -:- Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 04:26:44 (EST)
__Iola -:- Cosmic -:- Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 20:25:07 (EST)
____Scott T. -:- Cosmic -:- Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 20:58:57 (EST)
____Judex -:- Answering Iola -:- Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 03:26:18 (EST)
____carol -:- Cosmic -:- Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 04:04:12 (EST)
__carol -:- Cosmic -:- Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 04:09:59 (EST)

Jean-Michel -:- Third Technique Update! -:- Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 03:59:43 (EST)
__Jean-Michel -:- Third technique history -:- Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 04:48:57 (EST)
____Cheddar with attitude -:- Third technique history -:- Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 08:51:52 (EST)
______Selena with attitude -:- Third technique history -:- Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 14:02:57 (EST)
______magic -:- Third technique history -:- Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 21:18:50 (EST)
______Carol -:- Third technique history -:- Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 02:47:45 (EST)
________Scott T. -:- the swinging third technique -:- Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 11:02:30 (EST)
____Robyn -:- Third technique history -:- Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 09:35:36 (EST)
__Robyn -:- Third Technique Update! -:- Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 09:30:12 (EST)
____JM -:- makes me feel dizzy .... -:- Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 10:55:29 (EST)
______Robyn -:- makes me feel dizzy .... -:- Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 11:13:56 (EST)
__JW -:- Outrageous -:- Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 13:19:33 (EST)
____JM -:- Satpal's techniques -:- Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 13:48:26 (EST)
____Rick -:- JW -:- Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 20:29:04 (EST)
__John -:- Third Technique Update! -:- Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 15:50:35 (EST)
__Scott T. -:- Canine unmentionables -:- Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 18:51:06 (EST)
____Iola -:- 3rd Technique -:- Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 19:46:41 (EST)
______Scott T. -:- 3rd Technique -:- Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 21:19:07 (EST)
______carol -:- 3rd Technique -:- Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 02:53:45 (EST)
________Robyn -:- 3rd Technique -:- Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 10:10:54 (EST)
____Robyn -:- Canine unmentionables -:- Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 22:28:52 (EST)

RT -:- Rt sings Dire Striaghts -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 22:30:22 (EST)
__Katie -:- Rt sings Dire Straights -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 22:39:07 (EST)
____Judex -:- Rt sings Dire Straights -:- Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 03:16:47 (EST)
__Robyn -:- Rt sings Dire Striaghts -:- Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 09:41:05 (EST)
____charles -:- Rt sings Dire Striaghts -:- Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 11:37:08 (EST)
______Iola -:- Rt sings Dire Striaghts -:- Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 16:35:14 (EST)
__Larkin -:- Rt sings Dire Striaghts -:- Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 20:48:46 (EST)
__Anon -:- Rt sings Dire Striaghts -:- Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 19:12:29 (EST)


Date: Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 22:48:53 (EST)
From: 'Emperor of the Spiritual
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Domain of the Age'
Message:
Anon, Jean-Michel, et al:

I thought I'd drag this up top, since the thread is about to go below the fold.

Between the Advait Mat book, and Jean-Michel's account from 'Satgurudev Shri Hans Ji Maharaj' published by DLM in India, I think we've gotten to the bottom of the controversy. It's pretty clear that the 'Varaganand' in the DLM passage below is the same 'Vairag Anand Ji' from the Advait Mat book in the passage below that.

The differences between Guru and disciple dissolved into basic oneness. Maharaj Ji lost his personal ego and became one with his Guru, attaining supreme cosmic consciousness..... A small group dominated by one Varaganand disobeyed their Master and after his death declined to follow Shri Maharaj Ji. Varaganand claimed the property of his late Guru and set himself up as his own right. (Divine Light Mission, 19??)

I am happy with you.' Having said so, the Second Master embraced His own image, Shri Swami Vairag Anand Ji. The Two Divine powers became One. (Shri Anandpur Trust, 1975)

It also seems likely that one or the other account (or both?) was plagiarized. Not pretty. One now has to judge whether either lineage is genuine. And if the legitimacy of the 'right to rule' belongs to Shri Hans on the basis of his non-materiality (as the passage seems to claim), then that title has been squandered by his son. I wonder how the fortunes of 'Vairag' and his successor faired? That would be the person of Shri Swami Beant Anand Ji Maharaj. Unfortunately I didn't have time to copy that chapter, which runs from page 545 to 660. Then there is the matter of the 5th Master, who is supposed to be the 'Emperor of the Spiritual Domain of The Age,' and who has not yet reached his advent. Kinda gives me the shivers...

-Scott
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Date: Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 04:31:32 (EST)
From: carol
Email: None
To: 'Emperor of the Spiritual
Subject: Domain of the Age'
Message:
Hi, Does anyone know about the Bahai faith? I have recently met someone who has been with it for 35 years and I want a better understanding. What I know is they have a current leader who comes in sucession and is regarded as an incarnation who is known by his suffering. They have a motto of 'Work is worship'. They believe in big changes coming with the millenium. They respect all scriptures of past 'mouthpieces'.
carol
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Date: Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 09:49:08 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: carol
Subject: Millenial hangovers
Message:
Carol:

Beyond the fact that 'Seals and Croft' were believers, I know nothing of Bahai. I think a lot of these millenial faiths are going to have huge hangovers on Jan. 1, 2001. They're going to have to wait ANOTHER thousand years!

-Scott
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Date: Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 20:49:42 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Millennial Hangovers
Message:
Hi:

Nothing much to say. It just started to bug me that I had misspelled 'millennial.' Anyway, there is liable to be a big psychic letdown as it becomes clear that there's nothing special about the year 2000. If nothing else Jack Van Empe and his lovely wife will have to look for work. Frankly, I'll miss them. That guy sure knows his doomsday prophets doesn't he?

-Scott
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Date: Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 10:50:14 (EST)
From: shah
Email: None
To: carol
Subject: Domain of the Age' - Bahai
Message:
I'm a 'practising premie' (25 yrs) who is married to a 'practising Bahai' (23yrs), and this may seem a very strange mix. I guess our survival ingredient is mutual respect for each other as human beings (as well as love - of course!).

Bahai's beleive that their prophet was the true messenger of God for the next 1000 years or so , and that Jesus, Buddha, Mohamet, were past messengers of God, whose messages, although genuine , were relevant only to the people of their age. (This believe obviously excludes M from the cosmic equation !)

Bahai's beleive that their faith will provide the social and spiritual values for the 'New World Order' for the next millenium.. Their values are humanitarian, positive and have a strong Islamic influence.

I suppose the only criticism that I can make is that, like all human groups (DLM, EV, the local croquet or bridge club, work organisation, etc,etc), Bahai's communities also have their social heirachies, but not nearly as pronounced as in the premie world. They certainly have a focus on humanitarian service. Generally they seem more open than premies to debate and discussion about their beliefs and you can go to meetings and publicly debate points without fear of being thrown out. Generally they are very respectful of alternative views even if they don't necesarilly believe them..

I doubt that I will ever become a Bahai, because of my ongoing relationship with M (which is personal) but I respect their sincerity selflessness and genuine concern for the suffering of humanity . They are aware of how I stand with M, and respect that as a matter of my personal faith.

I do not believe that my wife would receive K or become a devotee of M. ( Although I suspect she's interested in meditation!) The dynamics of our personal life together are very rich and rewarding and I consider myself very fortunate to have the respect and friedship of local Bahais

If you are interested in finding out more about the Bahai faith,
they have a web site at............www.bahai.org

Good luck, but beware................
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Date: Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 18:50:47 (EST)
From: carol
Email: None
To: shah
Subject: Domain of the Age' - Bahai
Message:
Thankyou for the info. I'm not looking personally,for myself, just want to understand someone better and be respectful. carol
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Date: Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 00:45:59 (EST)
From: Mirabai
Email: golddiva@wire.net.au
To: shah
Subject: Domain of the Age' - Bahai
Message:
Dear shah,

Your post was great. I really respect your kind of attitude and that of your partners. I dislike dogmatic view points,my own or anyone elses. I know that it is kind of human to think we know what is ultimately 'right' but I like to be aware of this tendency and not give it undue power.

This attitude of righteousness can be expressed on all manner of topics; not just Maharaji or other authority figures. Our relationships with others.

Also about ex partners. My parents divorced and did it with each other and I hear my brother talking about his ex with the same bitter and biased views. Tolerance comes sometimes when we are humbled in life and make really big boo boos and don't feel quite so mightier than thou that one once did .

We like to think we are on the 'right' and 'winning' side. I have to admit that I used to thik that I was on the winning and that somehow my affiliation with M was what made this so. I felt superior,just quietly within myself, that other people were not as 'on track' as I was.

I personally feel that M helps to encourage this point of view. But at the moment I prefer to just be a human being that stands alone (all one) but enjoys and appreciates the multitude of variable expressions of people that have something to share that really inspires me. (That was maybe a bit too long a sentence,but I couldn't find a way to shorten it )!

Keep up the great attitude and may it be catchy to all who come in your contact!

Best regards Mirabai
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Date: Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 03:02:20 (EST)
From: Jethro
Email: cadbury@compuserve.com
To: 'Emperor of the Spiritual
Subject: Domain of the Age'
Message:
When I was researching the history of Knowledge, I was eventually put in contact with an ashram here in London. I went to meet the Mahatma there and it turned out that he was a devotee of Sarupanand. He (the mahatma) remembered Hansji as a 'great satsangi'. He told me that after the death of Sarupanand, there were 4 people who went off and started their own 'missions'.He did not present it terms of conflict. His master(can't remember his name) is entitled Shri Sadguru Dev Ji Maharaj, the fifth master in the line of Dayal Ji.
I discussed in detailthe 'Knowledge' that the Mahatma reveals to people...and surprise...surprise...guess what the techniques are??
Anf I heard loads of jsca's around the ashram.
He also told me that his Guru Mahatraji knew everything and could speak every language(sound familiar?).
When the Guru came to the UK for his birthday celebrations, I was invited to the ashram to meet the Guru. A nice old bloke, who spoke broken English. He knew of Balyogeshwar, and told me just to continue meditating and then I would know God.

The curry was good!
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Date: Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 05:34:00 (EST)
From: Anon
Email: None
To: Jethro/Scott
Subject: Domain of the Age'
Message:
Thanks for that Jethro.. very interesting. In the 'Advait Sant Mat' book there is no mention of Shri Hans ji as being one of the many listed devotees of Sarupanand, nor of him being a successor. I wonder whether he had a different name then (ie.like the names chosen by Sarupanand for the Mahatmas). Do tell more of the results of your research, it's fascinating.

Scott, thanks for the copies. They are very interesting and I much appreciate your efforts.. If you find anything else relevant to this research do let me/us know.
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Date: Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 10:55:42 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Anon
Subject: Domain of the Age'
Message:
Anon:

I think it's all coming out now. Do you think it would be worthwhile to copy the chapters on Beant, and on the 'Emperor?' Looks to be another 200 pages or so.

-Scott
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Date: Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 13:32:36 (EST)
From: Anon
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Domain of the Age'
Message:
I think it's all coming out now. Do you think it would be worthwhile to copy the chapters on Beant, and on the'Emperor?' Looks to be another 200 pages or so.

I was personally interested to know the history according to this book. Whether it is a true version of events is questionable I suppose. But given the lack of any other source of information, I would say that, seeing as this resource is available at present, perhaps it would be a good idea to read as much of it as possible.
The subsequent sections on Beant etc. may contain mention of Shri Hans. I don't doubt that he was an initiate of Sarupanand (see Jethro's post) but if he was a 'satsangi' of note (whatever that is) maybe there will be some mention of him.
If you've got the time, go for it. Nothing to lose.
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Date: Sun, Jun 14, 1998 at 00:23:25 (EST)
From: carol
Email: None
To: Anon
Subject: Domain of the Age'
Message:
I looked in my old booklet about Shri Hans to try to find reference to his Guru. It is very vague: He is referred to as a Saint, a Dada Guru who imparted the knowledge of the self or 'Updesh' to Hans. It is reported that his Guru said to him: 'I am in Hans heart, and Hans is is my heart,' and they became one. Also, that the Guru lifted Hans' hand and told his disciples to follow Hans after his death. Then it says that Varaganand disobeyed and took property and set himself up as Guru. Shri Hans did not care about material wealth and went off to spread the Knowledge of Holy Name. (The book has a forward which mentions the commemorative volume was made with the grace of Satgurudev Shri Sant Ji Maharaj (Goomaraji)and our patron Shri Jagat Janani Mataji.)

This is an interesting claim about Shri Hans, too: 'Born in a Suryawansh, or sun dynasty, he inherited the greatness and the glamour of the Raghu dynasty. He was a descendant from the lineage of Lord Rama's family.'
Carol
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Date: Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 11:23:17 (EST)
From: Jethro
Email: cadbury@compuserve.com
To: Anon
Subject: Domain of the Age'
Message:
Hello Anon

I didn't only investigate knowledge. I entered many groups who believed they had 'the Truth'. Each group showed the same symtoms, i.e after you get into the group you are trusted with the information that this is the true group. [All good experiences come by the g race of the icon or image;all bad experiences are because 'you are not open'. It is never the fault of the chief.]Those that have been into it longer have are more refined and are usually laid back and 'charming'.They are comfortable with their cognitive dissonence and have actualy stopped thinking for themselves.

Anyway with reference to the mahatma of the other gmj; all I remember about names is that he also knew a mahatma guru charanand and many of the other names were the same. It seems that Sarupanand spawned several offshoots maybe hoping that at least one would flower. But it appears to me that all these groups fail because devotion to a specific image is required,even though it is not admitted at the outset. The Hare Krishnas were 'honest' enough to call divine deception. I know that most premies of gmj think he is God, but won't admit it.Personally speaking, when I believed him to be God,I always said it to anyone I felt like. It was an extremely empowering belief....in a way I was sorry to lose it and am still adjusting.

JC
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Date: Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 14:50:08 (EST)
From: Anon
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: Domain of the Age'
Message:
I didn't only investigate knowledge. I entered many groups who believed they had 'the Truth'. Each group showed the same symtoms, i.e after you get into the group you are trusted with the information that this is the true group.
[All good experiences come by the grace of the icon or image;all bad experiences are because 'you are not open'. It is never the fault of the chief.] Those that have been into it longer have are more refined and are usually laid back and'charming'.They are comfortable with their cognitive dissonence and have actualy stopped thinking for themselves.


I know exactly what you mean and I couldn't have expressed it better myself. I find the ease with which these 'elders' settle into their religions, even more sinister than the rantings of more transparently hypocritical young acolytes. It seems such a mockery of Truth. For me life has to be a continual search whereby I never abandon the possibility that I may be on the wrong track.

Anyway with reference to the mahatma of the other gmj; all I remember about names is that he also knew a mahatma guru charanand and many of the other names were the same. It seems that Sarupanand spawned several offshoots maybe hoping that at least one would flower.

Isn't that odd? Dare I say hypocritical? If one reads all the high-falutin 'spiritual' proseletising ('satsang' I suppose), such as the words of Sarupanand ( from the Advait Mat book) and the virtually indistinguishable writings of Shri Hans (in Hans Yog Prakash), the clear founding premise of the whole thing is that there is only one Master alive at any one time. The Indians all seem remarkably adept at 'bleeping out' the implications of this fundamental little idea; for they clearly are perfectly happy that there are loads of SadGuru's (I still find that original spelling rather uncanny.)

But it appears to me that all these groups fail because devotion to a specific image is required, even though it is not admitted at the outset. The Hare Krishnas were 'honest' enough to call divine deception. I know that most premies of gmj think he is God, but won't admit it.Personally speaking, when I believed him to be God,I always said it to anyone I felt like. It was an extremely empowering belief....in a way I was sorry to lose it and am still adjusting.

Me too. For many years it has provided me with a comforting personalised God to turn to and an experience to associate it with. The single thing that has really bothered me was the growing recognition that fear was a part of the process. Love and Fear. The writings of these Masters makes intimidating reading if you take it at face value. They speak of the 84,000 inferior life forms which await you if you die unattatched to the Lotus Feet of .....(whoever). Do they really know this? I reckon Science could straighten that out in a trice. There have to be many many more lifeforms than that! The appeal of a personal Guru is very clear though. By trusting another human being with ultimate responsibility for your life, a burden is apparently lifted from your shoulders. Unfortunately I suspect that the 'empowering belief' you spoke of, is also 'disempowering' in an unhealthy fashion . The idea is clearly to have your sense of individuality, or ego, effectively bashed out existence before you die (rather than at the last minute as you are dying) by the considerably effective 'ego-bashing machine' that is set into motion by spending your life in Satsang, Service and Meditation. These Masters would have us all living a pretty dull life in my opinion, in order to earn such a happy death. Rationalism and any sort of critical thinking is the first thing to go! I dread to think what sort of world they would have us live in. Whatsmore even they themselves admit that only a few can attain the 'heaven' of perfect devotion in 'This Life'. That's a bit unfair.

Of course Maharaji today has indeed diluted his demands to suit the tastes of us modern people. When he lapses into Guru Nanak speak at programs, one looks around to find examples of these sort of ideal devotees and finds little evidence. What you are more likely to see is a bunch of nervey, stressed looking people. The reality of the current situation, or rather the 'end effect' of the current situation, is to divert a lot of peoples energy towards empowering the Maharaji Machine, producing at the same time, a deficit of rather half-hearted people who gain some religious comfort (ie largely self-delusionary comfort) from their peripheral nibblings at what is at heart an outdated medieval religion. A religion whose actual ultimate goals are pretty beyond their reach and probably not what they would wish for if they could actually have it. ie Total Surrender to M.
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Date: Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 17:05:46 (EST)
From: Iola
Email: None
To: Anon
Subject: Domain of the Age'
Message:
Has anybody out there ever experienced 'TOTAL SURRENDER?' I tried but I can't do it.

Also where is all the bliss and joy?
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Date: Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 18:56:12 (EST)
From: Anon
Email: None
To: Iola
Subject: Domain of the Age'
Message:
Has anybody out there ever experienced 'TOTAL SURRENDER?'

I suppose Maharaji himself is supposed to be a living example of a Totally Surrendered person.

I tried but I can't do it

I tried too. I am not sure it can or should be done.

Also where is all the bliss and joy?

Personally I don't pursue that. It's enough for me now to be simply happy. I'll try to explain.

I moved into the ashram (which was some sort of start towards a life of total surrender) and basically found it very boring and depressing in the long run. As ashram premies we often went to festivals less than other premies (because we'd given all our money to M) and I for one, worked long and hard in boring jobs for which I had no attraction and which were, by Ashram design, not things I would be able to get any satisfaction from. As a spirited young man I felt very wasted by all this. I had been full of positive expectations about life as a child and sincerely aspired to channel my talents to serve God. I too thought MJ was a prayer answered. For many years it felt like that.

At first I did experience a lot of joy and bliss, especially when doing a lot of meditation at my parents country home aged 17. (That was the period, I now consider to have been when I learned to associate a nice inner experience with Maharaji in person) I was relatively free and 'generously wishful-thinking' still at that stage. Later when I responded trustingly to M's recommendations of Total Surrender by moving into the ashram, my life became gradually more constricted and frankly, duller. It became also gradually more clear that the strict diet of meditation, satsang and sevice, that we were to adopt, could not alone fulfil my hunger for happiness. On the contrary I became very sad and confused at how I was not deriving true happiness in that situation. M seemed more remote than ever and of course, by then, I had replaced all objects of love (including parents, friends love of God, Jesus etc.) with M. I was left in a sort of permanent emotional sorrow over not being near him (the usual). He didn't seem to care that I was stuck with a bunch of looneys in some remote ashram doing work I was not suited for. (I had been well-educated and keen, and was doing boring jobs most of the time). Eventually the ashrams closed and I was relieved to find that I had to exercise some choice in my life again. At age 25 I was a little rusty but at that moment my life took an upward turn.

Now I no longer seek the drug like blisses and joys I got as a naive teenager. I now enjoy the deeper rewards of living as conscientiously as I can. I feel absolutely no qualms about questioning Maharaji and although open minded, have to say that I clearly see so many pitfalls and dubious dynamics in that area that I prefer to leave my fate in the hands of a yet unknown God. I cannot follow an admitedly charismatic human self-styled God if I don't fully trust him or his teachings anymore. He maybe quite sincere but himself deluded.

I don't pretend to know what M's motives really are, but I do know that I have tried following him very sincerely for the best part of my life and have been unable to ignore the very fundamental and (to me important) doubts that I have had over the last years.
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Date: Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 20:08:49 (EST)
From: Anon
Email: None
To: Anyone
Subject: Domain of the Age'
Message:
In case anyone missed it this page has some stuff about Maharaji, Shri Hans and Sarupanand, as well as some insightful comments on Guru Succession.
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Date: Sun, Jun 14, 1998 at 16:34:41 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: Anon
Subject: Great material
Message:
thanks very much - this is indeed pretty amazing stuff.

The idea that knowledge is meant to separate the soul from the body is new to me in the way described - and I am still digesting it.
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Date: Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 21:00:45 (EST)
From: Joy
Email: None
To: Iola
Subject: Domain of the Age'
Message:
Boy, Iola, you sure do ask the pointed questions!

Back in the 70s I use to look at Bill Patterson, who was the head of DLM and around Maharaji a lot, and he was always talking about surrender, and how far we were from it. I used to think to myself that if Bill Patterson, who spent so much time with MJ and was an initiator, and was so incredibly dedicated and devoted -- if HE couldn't do it -- how the heck was I (a mere mortal) ever going to? That's when I realized it was an impossible task, not something we could even accomplish if we wanted to wholeheartedly (and thank God for that, really -- what if we actually could have done that -- what would we have become?) Scary thought.
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Date: Sun, Jun 14, 1998 at 12:36:30 (EST)
From: mark
Email: None
To: Joy
Subject: Domain of the Age'
Message:
Bill Patterson
the 'light who would awaken'
america - according to M-1977
jumped ship some years back
Thinks M is 'fucked -up'
Bill was difficult for me to digest
as a premie so his 'anti 'endorsement
carries little clout -
but he and the other heavyweights
and 'close-tos' that have left the 'guru's boat'
(circling as RT dave would remind us , the Residence)
does give credence to something being a bit amiss
in god- incarnate belief -system land. . .

Total Surrender is not terribly
hard to achieve
you just have to locate your own personal 'all '---
you know, the all in
Arti;
I give you my all , so in you it will mellow. . .'
and Impersonally release it.
sort of do pranam
to yourself, with the same -or More- belief that
you did to Mr. Masquerading M!
do it sincerely and you'll feel a layer of
Self-Identification
peel right off
repeat the procedure ( to your own perfect self ,
not an external mass-media one like M)
until enough layers are eliminated

at a certain point , the
light and bliss inside of you will kick in
& you will leave the 'Circle of Time'
and enter the 'Circle of Love' . . .

a lot of the dynamics for inner and devotional experiences
are quite valid and a tendency to cease the
inner quest and adventure
just because M's a con man
is sad indeed
We all are quite capable of experiencing
different dimensions of ourselves
in fact have been designed to -
it is part of our very teleology !
and IMHO learn must learn from experience.
and in my wife's words
'Wake up &
become Smart Spiritual Shoppers-
buy retail and not wholesale-
Elimiinate the Middleman! '

we are all birds designed to fly deeply
and ecstactically into ourselves.
that total surrender /acceptance of your self is closer
than ever!
remember that onepointedness you
once had for the Real ? the Passion ?
GIVE YOUR SELF THE POWER YOU ONCE GAVE M-
with the same full regard. . .
CALL IT TOTAL SURRENDER OR A HALFTIME ADJUSTMENT
and begin/resume your journey into the 'circle of Love'
well I'll get off the soapbox now.
must be some of thatSunday Morning Sermonizing fever
that's been going around.
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Date: Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 08:05:01 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: mark
Subject: Thank you, mark
Message:
Yes I get your point. I think it's hard to write when you're in that state of being because it's got to be full of.........'s and
paragraph
returns
because if feels so
good
Is that
it?

I had a really holistic experience last night that all is well. That there is no split on the level where the other stuff happens.

There can't be because it is all love, - forgiveness, compassion - even beyond those last two states.
I found myself accepting that I am 'someone' in my 'personalities' but underneath am bigger and much deeper than that. It is hard to say in words. I forgave Maharaji and no longer felt any separation. Isn' t that weird? It stopped all the fear of death, of being punished - because I understood that underneath 'Maharji' and 'me' all is understood, all is well.
Then there is the other stuff going on with me, Judith, and him and others in our 'daily lives' selves.

But one doesn't really relate to the other at all, and I still believe in everything against cults and against Knowledge. I felt this tremendous liberation that I could still achieve devotion (to god) and liberation without having to practice or be a disciple.

It's like there are no rules, really. That's how I felt last night. Maybe I am on drugs!?!

Forgive me if I have offended anyone but it could be like the tiny yin inside the big yang - it just has to be there.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 16:49:38 (EST)
From: Iola
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Quitting Knowledge and MJ
Message:
How and why did you do it? I have been involved for 24 years. I love the programs, the message, the idea of a 'LORD OF THE UNIVERSE,' and everything else...but I still wonder.

I give on a regular basis (every month from my credit card), but still I wonder if I am giving enough. I attend the videos and go to see MJ when possible. I practice K about three or four times a week and feel guilty when I don't. IN FACT, I FEEL GUILTY A GREAT DEAL OF THE TIME. M has said 'Only if you want to,', but I feel like I am damned to hell if I don't.

How many times have I asked myself, 'Why are you not a better student?' God knows I've tried, but I never did experience that complete 'SURRENDER.'

I used to wonder why people bowed and scraped every time they entered and left the Satsang hall. I used to call it GROUP THINK. I used to wonder why everybody shoult 'Bhole ...' , but all of that is gone now.

Still I wonder.

Here is my ultimatim: God, MJ, or Whomever:

If you're out there, please show me a sign.

I wanna know what love is? I wanna know the Lord.

I wanna quit if it ain't true.

I remember feeling like this just before I ran into a premie. I was sitting down to do my TM practice (boy I was desparate, eh?) when I realized that I was going nowhere. I said 'God, please come and help or I want to leave (die). He did--he sent Guru Maharaj Ji.

Everything seems to fit:

ONE MASTER AFTER ANOTHER, ETC., ETC. ETC.

Well, I am afraid to admit I have been fool. I just don't know.

It's neat to be able to talk like this. I can't really be REAL with my friends (all of whom are premies).

If I quit, I shall have no friends, nothing except a job and a child. Oh well!

What do you think of this mess.

I'd like to hear from believers and non-believers.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 17:24:48 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Iola
Subject: overcome your fears
Message:
I understand your point very well.

I've been a premie for 25 years, lived in the ashram, part time
instructor, member of the board of EV in my country, etc etc
Most of the people I know are premies ...

I had to admit I have been a fool for that long, in front of my friends, in front of my family, in front of premies and non premies, tell the BM to go fuck Himself, etc ...

I've understood why.
I've not been the only one
I'm a bit stupid that it took me so long
Hundreds of thousands already left
they were quick to understand
I'm a bit slow
It doesn't matter
Life goes on
and the BM owns nothing of it,
he doesn't own anybody
maybe he owns his life
he should be more careful
with himself, and with others

None of his cheats will remain secret anymore
thanks to the Internet
and some dedicated exes ...

say what you feel, say what you know
everything will be fine.

And you'll really be in peace.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 17:50:16 (EST)
From: majic
Email: None
To: Iola
Subject: Quitting Knowledge and MJ
Message:
Iola

There's a ga-zillion things to get into in this life, but for me of all that I've seen and all that I've felt 'the one thing I really want to be a part of is this Life'.

For me in my personal experience this life is this breath. Not what I think in this breath, not what I do in this breath but just this breath itself.

In reading your post it was like me writing it. Our experience seems so relative.

23 years ago I reached a point where one night for the first time in my life I said (internally) 'If this is what this life is about (all that I've done all that I've seen) then you can have it back I don't want to wake up tomorrow.'
The next day when I woke up after a series of absolutly theatrical events I reached a moment in my day where one minute after an undeniable miracle happened I was told about GMJ.

I'm sure most people would call it coincidences but I can't.

Anyway I don't usually post, mostly I read and listen to the message but you triggered something.

Keep breathing,
Sincerely
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Date: Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 20:44:52 (EST)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: majic
Subject: Quitting Knowledge and MJ
Message:
Right, keep breathing. Like Iola wasn't doing that before falling into premiehood. As if walking away from Maharaji's get-me-rich and keep-me-rich scheme will cause her breath to stop.

Iola's choices are whether or not to continue to send Maharaji money in the pretense that he is the Lord Of The Universe (a cash-poor one at times) and that she is buying herself a stairway to heaven - and unhappy.

This is your life, Iola. Maharaji didn't give it to you. You have every right to not feel that you have to spend it serving his selfishness.
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Date: Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 00:01:10 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: Majic
Subject: Quitting Knowledge and MJ
Message:
Dea magij
If the one thing you want to be part of in this life is your breath, it sounds to me like you are quite depressed.
Are you?
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Date: Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 17:59:01 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: Iola
Subject: Quitting Knowledge and MJ
Message:
Hi
It was VERY hard for me to break away. I only made the final cut last december 97.
And you seem to care more about M than I did back then. I had pretty much gotten disillusioned and wasn't even that interested - but I was addicted to the events and a few people who I thought were my deepest friends. Actually just one. Even that small tie was enough to keep me hanging around for years more than I really wanted to.

You are free to do what you want. But don't worry about not having friends. If they are you friends they won't care if you go to events or videos. but be prepared, my experience is they put M first and if you disown him they won't accept that.
so, you will find other friends. There's a lot of people in this world. It's hard to be alone actually!

And let me ask you this, why the guilt about meditating or not meditating? Don't you think that has been an external guilt that has been imposed upon you? Meditation is nothing special. Some techniques to relax. Even the premies will use that argument to try to get someone to 'receive' a knowledge they already have. They will tell you it's not the techniques but the combination of them and the master. Does that really make any sense?
Just ask yourself these questions. Yes listen to your heart. But listen to your doubts as well. That's why we have reason. that's why we have the ability to judge and percieve.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 20:32:14 (EST)
From: petebear
Email: petebear@ozemail.com.ua
To: Iola
Subject: Quitting Knowledge and MJ
Message:
Hi there.

Last night I saw a Simpson's episode about Homer and Co joining a group called the 'movementarians'. It was a hoot a minute. And very poignant for an ex-premie.

I'm not sure that others would get the same kick out of it. But I did and recommend it to you. While this is a new episode in Australia it has probably been out longer overseas

Cheer

Peter Howie
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Date: Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 21:59:39 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: petebear
Subject: Homer joins a cult
Message:
I saw that episode. I for one agree with you. It was funny yet so accurate. I even wondered - remember the scene where the faithful
are toiling the fields and the Rolls drives by and they think
Homer is especially graced because HE gets sprayed with the dirt from the tires?
all I could think of was Amaroo. Wonder who the writers had in mind?
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Date: Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 20:52:53 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Iola
Subject: Quitting Knowledge and MJ
Message:
lola,

You said:

I give on a regular basis (every month from my credit card), but still I wonder if I am giving enough. I attend the videos and go to see MJ when possible. I practice K about three or four times a week and feel guilty when I don't. IN FACT, I FEEL GUILTY A GREAT DEAL OF THE TIME. M has said 'Only if you want to,', but I feel like I am damned to hell if I don't.

God, to think there is automatic deduction from your credit card to support the guy in a lifestyle most of us cannot even imagine. I am embarrassed to say that I gave M my trust fund, as well as all of my income for a period of almost 10 years. God, do I feel silly. I usually felt guilty about not practicing knowledge enough, too. I also felt guilty for having doubts. Remember, it used to be a COMMANDMENT not to have them! I always felt I wasn't surrendered enough either. Most premies I knew also felt this way. And Maharaji took every opportunity to tell us we WEREN'T practicing enough, being devoted enough, nor surrendering enough. It was an endless 'I am nothing without you Maharaji' mantra.

This, after telling us at the beginning that knowledge was a beautiful, easy, natural experience that was just so simple and beautiful. It wasn't beautiful. It was another 'have to.' So, I lived in his ashrams, did what I was told and 'prayed', like he said we should do, for his 'grace' to be able to do all of those things. It was an endless treadmill. And most of the premies I knew, and including me, were pretty unhappy most of the time, except possibibly when we were at programs. Then we just lived for the NEXT program. I know I did.

The truth is, it's never enough. Because it ISN'T the truth M is offering. It's a bastardized spiritual practice, and it is, dare I say it, a belief system. Once I stopped believing, I STOPPED having the 'devotional experience' I wanted so much. I could still experience 'meditation' but that devotional practice is really quite hollow and VERY expensive. It just isn't worth it.

And then of course, there's M himself, who really isn't a very nice person, really rather sadistic, out of touch and crabby much of the time. He puts on a good show at progams, but other than his performance there, he never demonstrated that he gave a shit about his devotees. He also hasn't been too successful at spreading this knowledge to the world, but he has been amazingly successful in accumulating vast wealth and comfort for himself. Guess where his priorities are?
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Date: Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 21:34:03 (EST)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: Iola
Subject: Quitting Knowledge and MJ
Message:
Iola,
I haven't the time right now to say much.
But your post touched me.
It isn't easy to stand in your own space and simply ask ,'what feels right to me?', and have the courage to be true to your own feelings.
And when you are confused and don't know what you feel then sharing your confusion , as we can all do on this forum I have found can really help, perhaps mixed with a little patience.
For me the practice of knowledge should be without fear or guilt or pressure and i strongly disagree with any emphasis to the contary.
Meditation should be like drinking water when you are thirsty.
Take charge! Good luck!
Regards , Keith
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Date: Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 10:20:47 (EST)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: LOTU
Message:
Hi Joe,
Just watched LOTU. I got a good dose of how lame I'd been to get suckered in. It reminded me of how much inner desperation I felt in my twenties, that led me to such delusion. I was getting a little pissed off at BM, and the mahatmas, while I watched. My extrication was so slow and over so many years, that I never really felt that before.

It was fascinating to listen to the ex-premies of the time, who had the wherewithal to see through it, all those years ago. What did they have that we didn't? Jesus H. Did they get a better upbringing? Were they smarter? One woman was particularly sharp and street-smart. I suppose it was self-confidence that really allowed the criticism. For me at least, that would've made the difference.

By the time I got involved in 76, the Holy Family had split, but I remember some of it because my sister was a premie then. That aspect really drove home the fraudalence for me, because I missed all that indoctrination, and it just looked so silly.

Thanks Again,
Rick
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Date: Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 21:47:42 (EST)
From: RT
Email: yeahhh, got 32 cents?
To: Iola
Subject: Quitting Knowledge and MJ
Message:
Dear Iola-Ji,

Just keep coming to this web site. All your questions will be answered in time.

Let m (mouse) guide you thru the forum. Click = Chit!

Average time to become an ex-premie is 5 months,
less if you have unlimited internet access! Then, the Core Techniques will be revealed, such as email, posting, printing to read later, and laughter. Just In-Joy the surfing!

Love and compassion are yours. Utilize them.

RT (24 years is 24 years)
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Date: Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 22:11:16 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Iola
Subject: Quitting Knowledge and MJ
Message:
Dear Iola,
Hi, again! I think if you get out of the BM thing your life will improve. You'll have us initially and you'll make friends with really thinking people! Are you a social person?
I think you never experienced complete surrender because you are a strong person. You know your mind even if you tried to shut it down. It is fighting back and tapping you on the shoulder, whispering into your ear. You are still in here, attention, attention! (That is what my oldest daughter says if she isn't getting enough :)
Good luck, it is good you didn't completely surrender!
Robyn
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Date: Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 23:27:16 (EST)
From: Joy
Email: Bluebirdd@aol.com
To: Iola
Subject: Quitting Knowledge and MJ
Message:
Dear Iola,

Your post is very touching, we have all been where you are now, to some degree.

When I left in 1981, I had nothing either, barely even a job, and just one friend (another premie trying to leave also). I hadn't worked 'in the world' in almost ten years and had a hard time ajdusting. It'll be okay, your life will piece itself back together little by little, it won't happen overnight, so don't expect it to. Take one step at a time, no matter how small. Keep thinking and feeling your doubts and don't abandon what you really think just because you're afraid the group might ostracize you.

After 17 years of being away from the group, you know what? My two very best friends are premies! I also have about ten other premie friends in various parts of the country/world I keep in touch with regularly. They are some of my favorite people ever, despite what I may think about Maharaji. So it's a myth that you have to give up your premie friends; I know a lot of people like to make the clean break, but for me I had made quite a few very good premie friends and there was no way I would abandon them just because I chose not to practice Knowledge or attend programs any more. Just keep it low key with them, do NOT get into arguments pro/con, in fact do not discuss the subject at all. When it comes time for the next program, just have a reason you can't go. You don't even need to discuss it with them. Just start phasing yourself out of the GMJ lifestyle, but if you still enjoy those people apart from the fact they're premies, continue to spend time with them socially, doing other things which are not GMJ related. You do not have to give up all your friends, in my experience.

Best of luck to you, keep coming back to the Forum, that's a good first step. I would also recommend reading The Guru Papers, but I wouldn't recommend discussing it with your friends, just keep that for the Forum for now.
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Date: Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 00:15:09 (EST)
From: Memphis Belle
Email: None
To: Iola
Subject: Quitting Knowledge and MJ
Message:
Hello,

I am in the same 'wondering' mode that you are in.
I have only had Knowledge for 1 year and would hate to think that I could still have these doubtfull feelings 24 yrs. from now.

The night before I learned about Maharaji, I asked God to give me some sort of sign too. I was questioning what life was all for.

If God answered me the next day with a messenger who told me about life and Maharaji, then am I suppose to listen.

I have tried to listen for a year and a half.
Since receiving Knowledge, I have felt 'guilty' for not
practicing every day. The guilt comes from being told to practice
everyday. I can still hear M voice say those words 'every day'.

I have experience wonderful things, but my doubts of M keep getting in the way.

I know that he flies a very nice Jet.
I know that he has a few mansions around the world, Malibu, London, and India, oh and Austrailia. I can't understand why he needs this much luxory.

The Master that my Grandfather believed in was Jesus, but J
ch
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Date: Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 00:39:38 (EST)
From: Iola
Email: None
To: Memphis Belle
Subject: Quitting Knowledge and MJ
Message:
What a can of worms I have opened. There are a lot of strange things said and done under the midnight sun of MJ.

Unless otherwise convinced before then, I am planning to attend MJ events in Miami, Atlantic City and Chicago. Maybe we can meet and compare notes? I don't know. It feels good to talk about the money and the way things keep changing.

I was just watching a video from 20 years ago. Things have changed. I have tried delving in but I only seem to be immersed from my big toe out.

MJ once talked about the 'Emperor's new clothes.' Of course, the emperor has been duped into believing he has fine clothes on that only the wise can see--but he is, in fact, naked!

Sometimes I think that I have also been duped. God knows I stripped my heart naked many times, but I still come back to being my old self--not the beautiful butterfly.

I have not metamorphized yet--but maybe you will!
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Date: Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 03:18:09 (EST)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: Iola
Subject: Quitting Knowledge and MJ
Message:
Iola,
Is it not excruciating ; everyone alive on this overcrowded planet of ours could give you advice ; perhaps throw in a couple billion aliens and assorted astral entities too ; and guess what?
You would still ultimately have to discriminate and choose your own truths. The lonliness of the long distance runner.

We are all playing a game . This game is not all that is going on. The way I read this situation is that some parts of this game REFLECT somewhat clearly the axiomatic Truth that pre-exists
and other parts of the game reflect relative smaller truths, truths that are subject to change...and yet again other parts of this game reflect illusions that really have nothing to do with truths on any level. And who is going to sift and select?

What a conundrum!! And yet life goes on.
BUT...that voice that for me is like a diamond...urges ...and asks 'surely there is more to existance than surviving and being 'lied to'.
OF COURSE THERE'S MORE. This life of yours is more than a cosmic joke.
Iola, in a post below (read my type) you half heartedly asked me to read some cards for you.
Why should I not lie to you too , you stated.
Well, I don't think anyone on this forum is intentionally lying to you ; but on the other hand that doesn't mean anyone knows the answers either.
We are all trying to make sense of the whole shabang like you are.
Anyway I have decided to select one card for you and if you like how I interpret it for you ...well, maybe another time, another card or two.
So hold on a moment , while I shuffle and ask ...'please send Iola an approprite message'.
Iola...what can I say...you have been sent a message of LOVE .
The card shows two love birds sitting together on a branch of a tree. One is gently leaning against the other.
In the distance a brilliant sun is shining.
Underneath there is the word LOVE and a heart next to it.
The entire scene is coloured in pastel hues.
That's the message. Love is the message. A loving relationship.
Who is the beloved? I don't know.
But this relationship can happen! Or is it already happening?
Regards , Keith
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Date: Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 09:25:05 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: Angry response to game playing
Message:
We are all playing a game . This game is not all that is going on. The way I read this situation is that some parts of this game REFLECT somewhat clearly the axiomatic Truth that pre-exists
and other parts of the game reflect relative smaller truths, truths that are subject to change...and yet again other parts of this game reflect illusions that really have nothing to do with truths on any level. And who is going to sift and select?


Dear Keith, I have to say, people who come here questioning Maharaji are pretty confused, as I was and I guess you were. Is this going to help them? When you tell someone to think for themselves, then you tell them 'we are all playing a game' I think you really fuck with people's mental health.

I am sorry but it makes me very angry. I would rather hear Jim any day. It's like the newcomers in AA. Do you really think you know shit? Does anything you said above make sense? Do you use Tarot as a substitute for real life? This mystical crap is really harmful in some forms, and I think it's true that you're trying to be a master, in an area you think no-one else here knows about.

Been there, done that, with everything you talk about - AND - had a nervous breakdown afterwards AND had to visit a shrink who sounded a bit like JIM to get well again.

I know I am blasting you but I have to say this - I feel so strongly about it.
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Date: Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 09:39:45 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: to Keith - angry addendum
Subject: Angry response to game playing
Message:
Ok Keith
I take back the vicious personal insults and just clearly direct my anger towards the material you posted - which I think is a heap of CRAP.

Personally after finishing with Maharaji I do not want any more meaningless gibberish in my life.
I mean, why spread it around?
It's like a fucking disease isn't it - where has it ever got you?
You say you are a healer and give workshops or whatever. But here we are mostly people recovering from a harmful cult.
Just don't replace one load of shit with another , please.
That's how I feel at the moment.
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Date: Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 09:52:46 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: Judex
Subject: to Keith - one last thing
Message:
Ok now I have re-read one of Cheddar's posts about live and let live and I realise I am making the same mistake everyone else has been making lately.

So live and let live. I know for myself I get into different states of mind here on the Forum, and it's been very helpful for me to notice how much I change from one mind-set to another.
Sometimes I waver towards something which is not real, and then what has happened in the past is that someone quite clear has helped me to clarify myself - what did I mean when I said that - just pointed out whether what I say stands up or not.

This is part of recovery to me. It's like what people were saying about AA (Stephen I think) - the newcomers' thinking is still going to be a lot like the thinking that got them there in the first place.

Maybe I over-reacted but I also noticed Jim has disappeared - not that Im blaming you - he probably needed a break. But personally he has helped me a great deal, and even the stings and arrows of outrageous Jim are better than some stupifying hazy wafty mindless space talk which might be very comforting but means little or nothing in terms of clarity, purpose, and certainly does not aid growth or critical self-assessment.

So, we are all part of some reality or other, yet some of it is games, and some part is crystal dew-drop pure and clean.
Oh, that part, if only we were it, what would we say?

We might say WAKE UP, stop DREAMING and FANTASIZING. That's what I want to say - maybe not just to you but to that part of myself that loves to disappear into head-games, like I think you were doing.

So everyone, attack me if you like. Hate me, I really am a nasty girl and that's why I have to communciate electronically, rather than face to face (I can't face my own anger and rage - which is always simmering away in the background).

Signed, the bitch.
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Date: Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 10:14:20 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Judex
Subject: to Keith - one last thing
Message:
Judex:

Personally, I've always had a weakness for 'nasty girls.' It's part of why I've been single for so long.

Trying to change.

-Scott
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Date: Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 13:03:43 (EST)
From: Cheddar
Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com
To: Judex
Subject: to Keith - one last thing
Message:
Hey, I like bitches. And I liked your above posts too. What I meant by live and let live was that I don't think we can complain and say that someone should stop posting just because we don't agree with them.

I agree with you regarding the tarot. I think such things can be dangerous and misleading. I dislike it intensely when someone thinks they can divine the future by shuffling a few cards. Such people can be like loose cannons and can cause great harm to gullable people. I think the same goes with any fortune tellers. But now ass-troll-ogy is different because everyone likes to read nice things said about them from their star sign. I say it's all rubbish unless the star sign is saying something complimentary about me. Then I'll say there could be something in it. But again, anyone trying to divine the future from such things is a danger, in my book.

Judex, I think you're perfectly in order to vent your anger here. Don't hold back girl. Say it like it is!
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Date: Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 13:20:05 (EST)
From: eb
Email: None
To: Judex
Subject: to Judex - YOU GO GIRL!!!
Message:
I'm so jealous of you and everyone here who vents so well. I need to take lessons from Rick, I guess.

eb
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Date: Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 18:57:38 (EST)
From: carol
Email: None
To: eb
Subject: to Judex - YOU GO GIRL!!!
Message:
Eb, me too...jealous others vent so well!

Judex, you are expressing yourself assertively (and slightly aggressively, with a pull-back). That does not make you a bitch.
(Too bad, Scott)
carol
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Date: Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 02:38:48 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: carol
Subject: to Judex - YOU GO GIRL!!!
Message:
Carol:

Well, I'm learning...

-Scott
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Date: Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 13:26:52 (EST)
From: Angry Cheddar
Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com
To: Keith
Subject: LISTEN HERE, KEITH!!!
Message:
Hey Keith, don't you know it's completely out of order to do tarot readings for people without their permission? Will you kindly stop this practise RIGHT NOW!

If you do this any more I will ask the committee to get you banned from the forum. Forget my previous leniency and live and let live attitude - this is going too far. I think other people here will agree.

TAROT READINGS DONE WITHOUT THE EXPRESSED DESIRE AND PERMISSION OF A PERSON ARE JUST COMPLETELY OUT OF ORDER.

Even supposed 'true' psychics will back me up on this one.
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Date: Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 13:50:36 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Angry Cheddar
Subject: LISTEN HERE, CHEDD!
Message:
Hi David -
In defense of Keith:
Iola did ask Keith to do a reading for her - it's in a thread below. I am not sure if she was serious, but she did ask.

P.S. I am mailing you the cheesehead today...
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Date: Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 14:32:32 (EST)
From: Sorry Cheddar
Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com
To: Katie
Subject: LISTEN HERE, CHEDD!
Message:
What, me wrong again? SORRY Keith. I didn't realise you'd been asked to do a tarot reading. Please accept my apologies for being so impulsive and hot headed.

I hope you would agree with me though that tarot or I Ching or any form of divination should not be done for a person without their expressed desire and permission. OK, you're an OK guy then in my book. That's the only (mistaken) thing I had against you. I was wrong so now I have nothing against you. Bye the way, you still have to tell us the colour of Jim's wallpaper.
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Date: Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 13:59:59 (EST)
From: The mild one
Email: kreilkamp@mindspring.com
To: Angry Cheddar and Judex
Subject: LISTEN HERE, KEITH!!!
Message:
Maybe I'm just a complete idiot, but I don't see anything so awful about Keith's post. Sure, it's not my cup of tea. It strikes me as fairly insipid, and I don't relate to it, but who knows!? We're all different. Iola might be more like Keith than I am,
And more importantly I REALLY don't see how she could be harmed by it.

John, in a mild mood because I have been visualizing my master gently pushing me in a swing...la di da
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Date: Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 15:05:19 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: Judex
Subject: to Keith - one last thing
Message:
Hey maybe you'd like a copy of the Courteney Love - Hole -
tape someone just sent me! gggrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.........
I couldn't make heads or tails out of what Kieth was saying so you are not alone. Maybe it's premie speak and he figured she'd understand it.
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Date: Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 19:25:41 (EST)
From: Stephen Harris
Email: mulcyber@pacbell.net
To: Judex
Subject: to Keith - one last thing
Message:
It seems to me that you probably had sound reasons to depart
the BM movement. Doesn't this forum exist for you to express
your views? I think that is part of you living in an honest way.
If 'let live' means not expressing your views which are contrary
to someone else, while they have the right to express their
contrary views to you, then you are giving their right to live
a higher priority than your own, IMO. People are giving at the
least implied consent to being disagreed with by just posting
to this forum. I think believing in Tarot, is the same type of
thinking that one uses to believe there is such a thing as a
Perfect Master, or than one is who not a Perfect Master has
the ability to distinguish such a person. More polite, might
be uncritical thinking, less polite might be superstitious
thinking. I don't think the idea of live and let live means
just choosing to post to people who agree with you. Ridicule
though, seldom changes a person's mind but makes them defensive.
So it does not help, if that is one's intent. I am not sure
than anger is always a non-spiritual choice. I don't think
anybody, pro or con in an issue, ought to be a doormat.
Finding the balance is hard to do, for me at least. It requires
making a decision in every situation rather than black&white rules

perhaps I wrote this mostly for myself,
Stephen
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Date: Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 08:16:46 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: Stephen Harris
Subject: to Keith - one last thing
Message:
If 'let live' means not expressing your views which are contrary
to someone else, while they have the right to express their
contrary views to you, then you are giving their right to live
a higher priority than your own, IMO.


Stephen now I've had some time out...I just want to say I really like what you have expressed here. It's very fundamental, isn't it. Because I don't know how to deal with my 'anger' or assertivesness or 'I am ' stuff I habitually suppress it, especially when I was more involved with other people than I now am.
I was a really good, angry doormat.
(I may be a doormat but just try treading on me.....)

Yes so it is a big dilemna and I guess education helps here, in terms of teaching people to think and express valid view points which they have reached conclusions about. New AGe semianrs teach you 'Iam valuable because I am infintie, powerful, creator of my own reality - and I am entitled etc' but that stuff never really gelled with me. Life experience is better at teaching self esteem.

There was a time I rememebr only a few years ago when I was driving down the road and I looked at the car next to me and I told myself I had as much right to drive on the road as he did.
As much right to take up space on thsi earth, right or wrong, as anybody else. That was a start.
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Date: Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 17:53:04 (EST)
From: Stephen Harris
Email: mulcyber@pacbell.net
To: Judex
Subject: to Keith - one last thing
Message:
Hello Judex,

I appreciated your posts. I find I am hungry and want to eat.
So my stomach seems to have grabbed anything meaningful that
I might say. Mainly just wanted to say Hi.
Stephen
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Date: Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 21:17:16 (EST)
From: Peter
Email: None
To: Judex
Subject: to Keith - one last thing
Message:
Judex--

These several posts were like a breath of fresh air to me. You expressed your anger very clearly. I had the same reaction to Keith's post and it felt very good to read a clear expression of how I felt. This is largely because I am only recently learning how (and why) to express anger (as well as many other emotions). It's great. So I was very sorry to see you feeling so down on yourself at the end of the third post for getting angry and expressing it. Again: I thought it was great. Do it some more. Many others on this site have also been inspiring in this regard. Thanks to them all.

Peter
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Date: Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 02:46:38 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Peter
Subject: Judex's flight
Message:
Peter:

I'm not sure that Judex would agree that she was being 'down on herself' at the end of her posts. Kidding aside, we can express anger effectively precisely because we have the capacity to self-reflect. Ironically, if gives the anger more legitimacy. Who cares what a perpetually angry person says? Most people would just change the channel.

-Scott
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Date: Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 07:40:14 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Judex's flight
Message:
Yes...straight after I posted that I thought, o shit, now I've hurt someone who just happened to say something they believed that I don't. Maybe not hurt, but insulted wildly.

I wish I knew how to structure a good solid argument so that with reason and insight I could direct my anger into a truly expressive rebuttal...the way I think Jim does usually (he's not really nasty, I find - only recently he was, and then half the 'premies' were fabrications anyway...which got very confusing...now I don't trust anyone on this Forum anymore....(except me)

I feel like saying to Keith and Iola that I do see 'coincidences' etc in my life and would like to beleive in something, truly, but it's very tentative, and it's not through tarot or astrology or meditation or drugs or beliefs etc. It's just through real life. For example, how fantastic was it to find this Forum. I was really ready to let go of knowledge and Maharaji, because I was really disappointed in a lot of things. I just didn't have consciousness awareness that was what was wrong.
Yet I also feel that for some reason I needed to go through the experience of knowledge. So, is there someone up there, or in me, 'teaching' me lessons about life...and sending me 'messages' in whatever way is appropriate to me at the time.

Like some people might smell smoke...others might need someone to bash them on the head and throw a bucket of water on them and shout FIRE in their ear.

There certainly does appear to be sense in life at times. I just say 'tentatively' feel because I have spent so much effort 'searching' and not really getting answers, god it may be that corny old thing that when you finally stop searching...but I thought that happened with knowledge. It's a never-ending story, isn't it, and then you die.

PS: Scott if you really did like nasty girls you wouldn't still be single. There's so many of us out there....
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Date: Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 08:30:57 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: Peter
Subject: expressing feelings
Message:
Peter Iam so glad you are learning to express your feelings more. My feelings went very numb when I was a premie and an aspirant.

I became so aloof and distant. Like I was already dead.

I am glad to be a feeling, thinking, still-breathing, loving, imperfect human being - and I want to experience LIFE ITSELF - something I have not done much of.

If this means getting off my high horse and walking on solid ground than so be it.
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Date: Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 10:02:29 (EST)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Keith
Subject: Quitting Knowledge and MJ
Message:
I was surprised to see you post this sort of drivel, Keith. I've seen Jim's post blasting you for this, but I evidently had missed the one(s) that set him off.

Do you take ANY responsibility for what you tell people when they are in pain?? Have all the years of searching for yourself in the eyes and words of other people (gurus) left you completely incapable of speaking from your own heart and your own experience?? Do you have either of these that you can fall back on??

I find it unexcusable that you would shuffle a deck of cards or flip a coin before responding to someone's sincere request for support. How very childish and callous.
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Date: Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 08:00:05 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: Memphis Belle
Subject: to Memphis Belle
Message:
By the way Memphis Belle, I felt the same way you did about finding knowledge, However I also felt the same way about leaving. That, too, felt absolutely right, and I found the Forum when the time was right for me to get some more feedback and some more information on Maharaji. That guiding instinct or voice doesn't belong to Maharaji, that's what I see is the biggest point of this whole Forum. It's like the 'monkey' story on the 'front page' (?) of the site - I don't know how to describe a website.

What we got doesn't belong to him. There is no need for a master, and in fact when you worship the master, and forget which direction the master is supposed to be pointing you in then it's a very bad scene, as others have said here, because you think you know ( 'god'). Or you think you think you know. But anyway, it's only a personal experience, whether you yourself feel that knowledge takes you to the infinite, the immortal, the light brighter than a thousand suns, the source of all love, whatever...to me Maharaji was a medium, a stimulus, an inspiration. But there comes a time...(as the song goes)

That's how I see it. It's not too soon or too late to reclaim your self and to keep growing.
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Date: Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 03:45:00 (EST)
From: Bill Cooper
Email: billnlynda@xtra.co.nz
To: Iola
Subject: Quitting Knowledge and MJ
Message:
Hi Iola,

Dont feel that you have to make some great big decision. Just keep reading. You'll be amazed at what people have to say who have been really close to Maharaji. The Guru papers is a great book to read if you get the chance.

Take care,

Bill.
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Date: Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 05:18:33 (EST)
From: Cheddar
Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com
To: Bill Cooper
Subject: Quitting Knowledge and MJ
Message:
Bill Cooper's got a good point there. Have a look through the old messages going back over a few months and read some of Bill Burke's posts. Also Mr Ex. They give an amazing insider view of what this guy, Maharaji, is really like.
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Date: Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 10:11:48 (EST)
From: Iola
Email: None
To: Cheddar
Subject: Quitting Knowledge and MJ
Message:
Thank you. I will look up Bill Burke.

You know how M used to talk about taking us from darkness to light, and death to immortality.

Now he says that we are finite beings and that the closest we can get to immortality is feeling it now (before we croak).

Fill your cup now, for up ahead there is no water and all you will have is an apartment in the city of death (whereever that is)?

I have heard a lot of promises--but little fulfillment.

Today, I am going to cancel my automatic debit from my credit card. I need the money.
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Date: Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 10:23:08 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Iola
Subject: Quitting Knowledge and MJ
Message:
Iola:

Today, I am going to cancel my automatic debit from my credit card. I need the money.

Good job! I'm going to donate at the local bood bank. All the best.

-Scott
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Date: Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 15:08:22 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Quitting Knowledge and MJ
Message:
and M certainly DOES NOT need the money. Good for you Iola.
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Date: Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 11:50:34 (EST)
From: bftb
Email: None
To: Iola
Subject: Quitting Knowledge and MJ
Message:
Hello Iola,
I am very curious about this credit card withdrawal business.When I was around there was no such provision.When it came to money for EV/M all that ever happened was after a knowledge session,a little card that said : 'Maharaji'-and also had his po.box mailing address, was available for anyone who wanted to 'correspond' with M to take.On the card itself it said something simple along the lines of: 'if you would like to send correspondance to M the address is....'.There was no mention of sending money.(However at a local program when I asked a long time premie if that po.box was really a good place to send a letter to M I was told encouragingly by this person that 'Yes.And you can send him donations to that address as well' Yippee!Lucky me!

So I find this 'direct deposit' scheme unbelievable.I mean in my day it was at least subtle and frankly there was very little pressure to give( except when he wanted a new plane and sent top instructors around to various cities to raise the $$$ for the plane from premies.In fact now that I'm thinking out loud here I remember that one of the dangled carrotts of that plane fundraising was[aside from the obligatory and predictable pitch of 'Don't you want M to be able to get to as many people as possible to give them this experience?']a pitch along the lines of: 'and who knows,a plane like this could allow him to spontaneously drop in on a local program anywhere at any time.'that was it-He got his plane!

How do they do it now?Is there an actual 'form' type document that premies fill out?Do you have the option of direct depositing from your bank account as well or is it just visa/mastercard?Are there suggested amounts to give?Did you actually sign something giving EV the right to debit your credit card every month?Is it the same amount every month?

I actually have more questions about this then I'm asking now but I've already asked too many so I'll cut it off here.I was very moved by your post and my heart goes out to you.Please excuse the superficiality of what I'm about to say,but I really believe this: You will be O.K.! You really will.And things will get better and better for you.Stop feeling guilty because anyone taking direct deposits from your credit card on a regular basis when you actually NEED that money is not worthy of you having guilt feelings over.He should feel guilty for leading you to the guilty feelings you're having.If you're feeling that way then obviously somethings wrong in paradise and M ought to cosider addressing whatever it is about his organization that can lead one to feeling that way-he can't say it's all the premies fault,or that the premies just don't understand or whatever denial mechanism they use.

When you first got into this whole thing were you promised a way to be happy, or a way to feel guilty about not giving enough of your money away? Then who's not living up to their end of the deal?You or him?

You have nothing to feel guilty about!
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Date: Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 12:25:05 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: bftb
Subject: Quitting Knowledge and MJ
Message:
Nice job, Bifty Bee.
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Date: Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 13:12:14 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: bftb
Subject: Asking for donations: how to
Message:
Hi bftb and all!

It looks like you don't know AT ALL how EV is organizing
the eternal fundraising!

Lots of premies are involved in raising money, and
they regularly organize 'service meetings' where you get
all the details of the official 'needs' for EV: local needs (renting halls, money for Visions Intl, needs for EV Swiss foundation, etc)

Then, if you already participate, they will individally invite you to more private meetings, where you'll have more details over
the needs for m himself, the residences, etc, how to help in the various businesses (Amtext etc), all the unofficial requests,
gifts ..... with insistance, and these meetings are managed by
EV's officials, full time m's instructors. International phone conferences also, with Yoram Weisz, etc. you ahve to be persona grata to be invited to these of course, no need to say.

Is this what you want to know ?
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Date: Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 13:22:45 (EST)
From: bftb
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Asking for donations: how to
Message:
I see how it works.The closer I try to get to god the closer he'll allow me to get.And the closer I get the more I'm allowed to know about what 'gifts' are needed.

actually I was wondering how they actually soften someone up to the point that they won't retch when handed a direct deposit form to fill out and whether or not there actually was some formal provision for direct deposits or whether it's prompted by an individual premie wanting to go the monthly direct deposit route and then EV tries to accomadate that wish.

In other words did a 'direct deposit' option pre-exist Iola's desire to donate in that way or was it created in response to the desire to donate that way? (not too mention all the other questions I asked)
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Date: Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 15:52:08 (EST)
From: Iola
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Donations
Message:
We were asked to fill out a card that allowed direct access to our credit cards (for interested people who gave on a regular basis).

This ensures that whether or not one is short of cash or inspiration, Elan Vital expenses are paid on time.

I have not checked lately because I'm in this loop, but I imagine that this option is still viable for new people.

Donations are taken directly from credit cards at programs too. I was once charged over 400 pounds for what should have been 400 Ausie dollars (over double the amount).

The money that is given within a country stays within the country. MJ does not get any of this money directly. What I want to know is why instructor visits (expenses) are not covered out of this main country HQ funds, but it's not. Instead each city is required to foot these additional expenses.

Is this what it always was--a push for money?
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Date: Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 16:21:41 (EST)
From: eb
Email: None
To: Iola
Subject: Donations
Message:
Hi Iola,

Back in the olden days, I was so poor that ashram premies donated money/airline tix/hotel room floors to me so I could go to festivals. BTW-thanks everyone. In the really early days, we used to have to hitchhike home a lot.

I was on welfare the whole time I was a premie, so I couldn't give much. But I remember a time when our community coordinator approached everyone to set up on-going donations. He asked for 10% of our monthly income (like tithing). I think this was around 1978 or so. Also, from time-to-time the premies in my community would hold rummage sales. Oh my--I'm having a memory. I used to do carpet cleaning with a premie on the weekends (which is very hard work) and donate all proceeds. I considered it service.

I must admit, I was very young, from a very dysfunctional family, and clueless. My husband had me convinced that we were 'chosen' people (even though we lived off dandelion greens from alleys). I was actually quite blissed out a lot and felt that my life was filled with grace. Except for the times we were homeless--well, I thought it was just lila, and I needed to surrender more.

The last time I spent money on Maharaji was when I went to see him in Long Beach, 1996. Slept through 3 satsangs mostly. And what I heard made me wonder, 'what did I used to see in this guy?' (Sort of like the way I think about my first husband now).

Cheers, all.
eb
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Date: Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 16:27:01 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: eb
Subject: Donations
Message:
M certainly struck out in that 96 LB event. That's also when I said to myself, what's up with this? Too bad I wasn't with you instead of the true believer I was with. I had to go back last December to finally get it.
I sure can relate to that analogy about the ex-husband.. good comparison.
I remember when I first left the ex-husband I cried and cried and really didn't think I could live without him, emotionally or financially. Now years later when I listen to him or see him I just wonder what drugs I was on that could possible have made him attractive.
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Date: Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 16:50:14 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Selena
Subject: To eb and Selena
Message:
You know what? You two are VERY funny. And what you say is even more funny because it's actually TRUE!!!!! Thanks for your post, both of you. I always enjoy them.
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Date: Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 17:12:31 (EST)
From: eb
Email: None
To: JW and Selena
Subject: To JW and Selena
Message:
Well, thank you JW. I always love your posts. And Selena, girlfriend, you and I could kick some ass, I'll bet. We could write a book entitled, 'What Did I Ever See in Him?' and go on Oprah.

Happy to be here,
eb
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Date: Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 17:22:34 (EST)
From: JW and eb
Email: None
To: eb
Subject: To JW and Selena
Message:
Hey we don't need no stinkin' self-esteem! We can just keep complimenting each other! Thanks both of you.
JW wasn't it you who added to the chain heresy thread Jim started? Rembember it centered around Daya and Jim started it with a story around her early childhood and I did the teenage to now years and then someone, I am pretty sure it was you carried it out with this amazingly well written funny ending about her leading a radial lesbian cult in Montana or smething. Loved it. that was so much fun. Jim, where are you? We need more chains/ - eb and Jw and I would be great contributors. no whips though. I am seeking balance these days.
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Date: Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 17:27:54 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: JW and eb
Subject: huh?
Message:
That last post was from me. I don't know what happened. full moon? Are my blue stone crystals on the top of Justica's monitor affecting my posts? I am baiting you Jim so that you will come out to play.
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Date: Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 17:31:17 (EST)
From: eb
Email: None
To: Fellow Writers
Subject: Chains/No Whips
Message:
Okay, Selena. Wanna be first?

eb
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Date: Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 18:29:16 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: eb
Subject: Chains/No Whips
Message:
No.
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Date: Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 17:15:48 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Iola
Subject: BM is a big fat idiot...
Message:
Y'all:

I believe this all came about as a direct result of the 'Al Franken Decade,' on Saturday Night Live. Instead of taking it like a joke BM thought it was his calling. He perceived a need for everyone to give to him... Prempal Singh. So it's really Al's fault, for naively thinking that no one would be such a big fat idiot as to see his schtick opportunistically. Oops!

-Scott
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Date: Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 19:21:28 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Iola
Subject: Donations
Message:
Iola, you said:

The money that is given within a country stays within the country. MJ does not get any of this money directly.

How do you know this? Plus, keep in mind that in my experience, BM is also the master of the 'indirect contribution.'

We used to say the same thing in the 'Active Membership Program' back in the 70s. Premies were to give 10% of their income to DLM, and it wasn't supposed to go to BM directly, but that was one 'supposed-to' that was honored in the breach. In addition, we sent checks directly to BM at his post office box in Malibu. I wonder if he sill has that? Of course, that was before automatic debit arrangements.
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Date: Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 09:21:21 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Iola
Subject: EV's non profit status
Message:
What I want to know is why instructor visits (expenses) are not covered out of this main country HQ funds, but it's not. Instead each city is required to foot these additional expenses.

The answer is that EV is supposed to be (big laugh) a non profit
organisation, meaning that NO individuals should benefit from
those 'donations'!!!!

Except de BigM of course, via Swizerland, Amtext, etc etc

M gets ALL profit, of course nobody would dare to get any ...
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Date: Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 15:42:51 (EST)
From: Iola
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Accessing Old Burke files
Message:
MJ said 'The INTERNET is more like a parking lot than an info highway, so I never bothered to try it before this week with you guys.

Also, how come some of the sites have been wiped out? Who did it? MJ or you?
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Date: Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 20:04:33 (EST)
From: Iola
Email: None
To: Iola
Subject: Quitting Knowledge - to Iola
Message:
Iola - this post is very similar to my very first post here.

I still haven't sorted it out. In fact, if there had been any forum for me to ask questions directly to M (apart from the 'letter writing') that would have been one of my questions. It's hard having a master you can't ask for help or clarification from - apart from pre-recorded satsangs.
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Date: Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 20:13:13 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: Iola
Subject: To Iola post from me
Message:
and was eferring to your 'apartment in the city of death post'
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Date: Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 23:08:48 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Iola
Subject: Asking direct questions
Message:
Iola:

Back in about '81 I had gotten into an argument with my mother over Maharaji and decided to clear up this business about whether or not he was the Messiah. So, I somehow got the Malibu address from someone in the Portland community and wrote him a letter. I basically asked him if he was actually the Messiah, and had intentions of 'saving the world,' etc. As I recall the tone of the letter was sort of: 'Are you, or not? And if not, stop wasting my time.' I think it put someone in the residence on the spot enough that I actually got an answer, but the answer was that he definitely did not claim to me a Messiah. As I understand it he was giving satsang at the time attempting to tell premies to stay 'on board.'

There was a famous 'ship' or 'boat' speech that a friend told me about recently. But, possibly because of the pointedness of my question there was no room for ambivalence. I recall that the letter said something about his giving Knowledge to keep people on the boat from getting seasick, so the allegories clearly came from this 'boat' satsang. But, he didn't say anything that would lead me to believe he was willing to adopt the mantle and responsibility of messiahship. So I just said: 'Fine. See ya!'

Apparently someone unwittingly, or deliberately, let me off the hook, or I wriggled off somehow. Wish I still had that letter. I think it was even on that residence stationery, with the silver swans and all that stuff at the top. I really wish I still had that. It should belong in a new chapter in Jorge Louis Borges' book A Universal History of Infamy, which cries for an update of some kind.

-Scott
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Date: Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 15:36:36 (EST)
From: Iola
Email: None
To: Cheddar
Subject: Quitting Knowledge and MJ
Message:
Although I have shown people how to use software for years, I only started using the Internet this week to read what you have written. MJ told us it was a parking lot rather than an info highway. Anyway, how do I access Bill Burke's posts?

Also, why am I having trouble accessing all the files such as old pictures. Who is wiping stuff out? You folks or someone else?
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Date: Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 15:56:59 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Iola
Subject: Finding your way around site
Message:
Hi Iola - any old posts that you are looking for will be in the Archives. There is a link to that at the top of the page. All the archives except the most recent ones are in zipped format, which means you'll have to unzip them with WinZip or other software.

I recommend that you read some of the stuff on the actual web site if you haven't already. 'Confessions of an Ex-Instructor', peoples' Journeys entries (in ExChanges), and some of the aspirant testimony (look at the Site Map link at the top of this page to find this stuff).

I am not sure where you are getting these links that don't work. Are you doing a web search on Maharaji? There have been several versions of this site, so some of the things that you find when you do a search have been changed by the webmaster. Also, there used to be a premie site that was taken off the Internet at the request of Maharaji.

Any more questions, please ask. The webmaster (the guy who runs this site) can be reached at brian@ex-premie.org, but he's probably at work right now.

Good luck finding stuff,
Katie
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Date: Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 14:04:38 (EST)
From: bb
Email: None
To: Iola
Subject: lola lita
Message:
Hello Kinkophile,
I think you'll find that others say stuff better than me.
Just last week I read a EB post that I wanted to use as my
journal entry! Or part of it anyway. I come to the forum less
only because I am so dang busy and my only time is late at night.
And when I come I head right for the inactive list way down below
to catch up on THOSE posts. I am reluctant to miss threads
because you have to admit they are choke full a lot of times.

Old posts are hard to find without knowing some of the markers
and name space filling methods I used. Any subject in particular you want to cover? I am guessing I know you and you are interested
in maintaining your privacy. That is fine and fair.

I stop up here in the active posts but when I do I get furthur
behind so I will check back to see if you respond before going
'under' to the old stuff. I just read anon's history lesson-wow.
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Date: Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 16:26:33 (EST)
From: Iola
Email: None
To: bb
Subject: lola lita
Message:
So, you think you know me. Of course you do! I'm like all the other schmucks WHO :

'Sacrificed their all for Satguru; the sword that killed their problem lives [by killing their personal lives], oh jai dev ...

The only thing is that I'm a lot slower than most of you.

I am interested in hearing stories of those who killed themselves for not making the grade. I have heard of physical self-mutilations, etc.

I have also heard wild 'magical stories' of MJ being in two places at the same time and other miracles.

It is sad to think that there is no LORD OF THE UNIVERSE looking out for me, loving me, waiting for me to take the next step in this devotional path.

MJ said recently that it was good to pray and it 'Didn't matter who listened to the prayers. You don't have to bother about it.'

What did the Burke files say that would be of interest.

I feel that I have gone a least a million miles in five days.

Remember how MJ used to say, 'Take one step toward the perfect master and he will take a million steps toward you.'

I feel that I have taken a million steps backward, and it feels good. I hope it doesn't take 24 years to get myself back. I don't think it will.

Thanks for any help you can give.
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Date: Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 10:59:41 (EST)
From: Paul
Email: None
To: Iola
Subject: Quitting Knowledge and MJ
Message:
Iola: One of the great tragedies (as far as I'm concerned) with M and K is that you enter a world of premie/not premie, and Truth/not truth. In both subtle and not so subtle ways K makes you quit looking for the things which got you involved in the first place. Premies often stop any form of spiritual or intellectual inquiry because, after all, they have the truth. Also, it makes you feel disloyal and guilty. If the thought of becoming an ex-premie creates guilty feelings you need to examine the nature of K and M and see how they create exclusivity and not a loving, truth seeking inclusivity . Try some things: go Sufi dancing, attend a local Buddhist sitting group, have a discussion with some hard core secular humanists, get your Mind (not the mean old nasty mind premies are told to fear) moving and exploring again.

The fact that fear is your prime motivator for remaining involved should tell you something. Don't give up!
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Date: Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 19:10:08 (EST)
From: carol
Email: None
To: Paul
Subject: Quitting Knowledge and MJ
Message:
Paul, you said that so well and with so few words! carol
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Date: Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 22:46:26 (EST)
From: red heels
Email: None
To: Paul
Subject: Blaming Knowledge and MJ
Message:
No offense intended, Paul, but I think you are hitting on the point of what makes an 'ex' premie more than what makes a premie. It's those who lay trips on themselves and zero in on guilt and fear that never really latch onto the freedom Maharaji offers. For those who have felt those things, I have no doubt that it is not a bad thing that those same people 'leave' Knowledge and Maharaji. I know I left Maharaji because of fears and judgments. I feared leaving the ashram and making it on my own, and right away I knew that therefore I must leave. (I have always believed that we must face our fears straight on, otherwise they will control us.) Then, later on and after not practicing Knowledge for a while (because I had never really made the commitment to practice, so once not in the ashram environment I easily fell into not practicing), then I started judging Maharaji, trying to figure him out and analyze him as if I knew what was what. Because for me, he was no longer my teacher -- how could he be, when I was no longer his student?

But really, it was amazing to see, many, many years later and after many years away from talking to even one premie or hearing or seeing Maharaji, it was absolutely stunning to learn that he was still saying the same things and still sticking with it. (According to my previous analysis of him, he would certainly not have been capable of such consistenty nor stamina.)

But I digress...

I guess it's time to duck. All the rotten tomatoes will be flying from vehement and angry protesters. But if free speech is allowed here, then this is my own exercise of it.
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Date: Sun, Jun 14, 1998 at 01:55:00 (EST)
From: IolaN
Email: None
To: red heels
Subject: Does this mean I'll ...
Message:
Hi Red Heels:

Does this mean I'll be seeing you in all the old familar places--Miami, Atlantic City, Chicago?

Of course, the more I keep reading, the less likely I am to go.

We all watched an old 1979 video tonight (Crown, Mala, Flute--the works). I pointed out that it seemed MJ's message had changed. Immediately, the forces that be said 'NO IT HASN'T.' I mean, we heard him say 'When are you going to completely surrender to GOMMRAJI?'

As you can see from the other posts, NEVER! We can't. The more I watch and the more I see, the sicker I feel.

Now it's the 'GRATITUDE AND THE ECTACY ARE WELLING UP INSIDE.'
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Date: Sun, Jun 14, 1998 at 07:20:12 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: red heels
Subject: Blaming Knowledge and MJ
Message:
But really, it was amazing to see, many, many years later and after many years away from talking to even one premie or hearing or seeing Maharaji, it was absolutely stunning to learn that he was still saying the same things and still sticking with it. (According to my previous analysis of him, he would certainly not have been capable of such consistenty nor stamina.)

Well red heels since he has changed everything else, I guess he couldn't afford to change his 'message' as well. It's like coke is still coke, no matter how much else you change you can't change the coke itself or it would not be coke.
And if coke still sells, then you can be sure someone will be still selling it. It doesn't have to be heroic or estoric you know. It doesn't prove anything.
However I am not throwing rotten eggs at you at all. I'm sure you are thinking as you are writing.
Good luck.
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Date: Sun, Jun 14, 1998 at 12:04:20 (EST)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: red heels
Subject: Blaming Knowledge and MJ
Message:
Duhhhh! Act like an idiot - get tomatoes thrown at you. What are you, a monkey? Since when was consistency and stamina ever an issue of BM's credibility. Who the fuck cares. You're insinuating that the reason people leave BM is because they were following him with fear and judgments. Fear is one the main techniques employed by BM to motivate premies to continue. When people talk about judgments it's usually a reference to not believing what they think you should. Judgments are evaluations , which leads to another of BM's techniques: Suspending intelligent thought and only making the evaluations that BM prescribes.

It's incredible that you were surprised BM would be saying the same things after many years. What tree were you hatched in? Of course, BM stopped talking about two key topics, his lordship and devotion. Oh, but never mind about that.
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Date: Sun, Jun 14, 1998 at 13:24:36 (EST)
From: Iola
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: Blaming Knowledge and MJ
Message:
Well said.

Last night, after the 1979 video presentation, one of the fringe premies came over. We both looked at all the printouts I have from this site, and we read the latest forum stuff.

SPEAKING OF FEAR:

My friend reminds me the Rageshwar told him, 'A person who receives the techniques from MJ and then criticizes him will be reincarnated as a bat (because it has no anus). MJ now says that there is only one lifetime allowed (no reincarnation).

He also said, 'This is the age of Kali Yuga and perhaps MJ is just weeding out the 'chaff.'

That is one of my fears. Am I a Judas?
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Date: Sun, Jun 14, 1998 at 14:02:22 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: Iola
Subject: Blaming Knowledge and MJ
Message:
He also said, 'This is the age of Kali Yuga and perhaps MJ is just weeding out the 'chaff.'
That is one of my fears. Am I a Judas?


Weeding out how? By making such a joke of himself that anyone with any reasoning ability would have to question and doubt?
Also RE: your fear of betraying M.
This is very common. It only proves how strong the indoctrination is. I felt the same way as recently as December. Ask yourself some questions.
What exactly would you be betraying? HIs mission? What is his mission statement these days? To travel around the world and spread joy? IF that is it than how can it be betrayed? And if his mission is to hold as many events as possible in order to increase participation=money for himself, then is Judas really a good analogy?
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Date: Sun, Jun 14, 1998 at 15:21:44 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Iola
Subject: Quitting Knowledge and MJ
Message:
Dear Iola,
I am practically in tears as I read your post. When you say you want to quit, do you mean quit EV or give up on life? Please, please don't mean the latter!

You have so much. A child? That is a miracle. That is a gift. It is not something to look down on. You created life. Do you not think that this is a part of God that you have created? You are very fortunate indeed. It isn't easy, but it IS amazing.

There are things to do, to see and ways to fullfill yourself in life that are beyond your dreams (and beyond the inside of your eyeballs)! Just give yourself a chance to discover yourself and this life without a cult. Without someone telling Iola how to live her life. Take Care, Iola
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Date: Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 15:33:03 (EST)
From: Rafael
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Rafael thanks all who answered
Message:
Hello again!
First I´d like to thank you all so very much for taking your time to answer my questions, it helped but maybe not so very much, I will later explain why. What you did indeed do was showing me that you people are quite nice! Although some of you are somewhat paranoid. Given the circumstances maybe that isn´t so strange. But I prefeer to believe that people have good intensions rather than hitting on anyone that seems suspisious.

My doubts comes from all the 'hush hush' about M.s money etc. I can´t understand why he has to have such a luxurios lifestile when he is supposed to have acheived total enlightenment. And how can the costs of the events be so high that the entryfees only cover 30 % of the costs? That´s what I´ve heard. I mean the rockconserts have the same conditions plus a entire staff to compensate.(From what I understand everbody works for free for M.)
M. once spoke of a piano he had bought. He seemed proud when he said that it once stood in The Royal Albert Hall, only two of it´s kind. He had to ship it over and he obviosly had maid a real bargain. That disturbed me, it sounded far to marerialistic and vain to come from a realised soul, to me anyway! I mean he dosen´t even play the piano, does he?

That is some of the negative feelings i have about M.
But I must give him my respect (not devotion!) in regards of what he has learnt me. No matter what his purposes are, he still teaches great wisdom. And from that I can learn. That is what I think, I´m sure many of you, if not all, disagree.

Why did I say your answers didn´t help me so very much?
- Because maybe I don´t know were i stand. I have never felt any anxiety because of M. Maybe that is because I have still not recived knowledge and haven´t had to deal with any possible feelings of guilt because knowledge didn´t make me feel something.
The moneyquestion disturbes me, but I haven´t been giving any donations exept for the voluntary entryfees to the events. And going to the events gives me a fantastic feeling. (I´m going to the Londonevent this weekend)
So in me there are two voices. One talks about the good feeling, the other about the doubts.

Maybe you have opened my eyes a little and made me think more critically of what M. is saying, not just swallowing it all. Thank you all again for your help, I will stay in touch.

Here are two more questions if anyone still think it´s worth the effort to answer:

- I read that the techniques of knowledge are taught by others, is there anyone who knows who?

- Do anyone of you agree that a teacher can speed up the process of acheving further wisdom, and that the wisdom is the key to peace?

My regards to everyone.
Rafael
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Date: Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 15:48:55 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Rafael
Subject: Rafael thanks all who answered
Message:
Dear Rafael,
I think the techniques are on this site, may be wrong. Others know more and will tell you, I'm sure.
Thank you for this post. I DO NOT think you need a teacher to speed things up. In fact, I think M will slow things down, get between you and your own personal spirituality, meditative experience, whatever it is for you it is in you already. You just need to find it or be shown meditation techniques and then with the support you can get here you'd be off and running!
We are a nice group, thank you, I agree and we really pull for each other, all you need to do is voice your worries, thoughts, questions and conserns.
Good luck to you, Rafael,
Robyn
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Date: Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 19:52:24 (EST)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Rafael thanks all who answered
Message:
Rafael,
I didn't respond to your first post but I'll say a bit now.
I do feel that some teachers can speed up the process of learning and spiritual growth and some teachers can slow it down.
Surely it is personal. What movies sped up your growth?
What books sped up your growth?
Teachers, books, movies and forum participants can all speed up your learning curve; it's up to you to discover who and what does it for you.
I am going to pull back a bit from my forum involvement , at least for a while but felt to say something to you.
Personally , I can say that I have learnt a lot from my years of involvement with Maharaji, but I never was a one-eyed premie.
I spent time with other teachers, tried out other techniques, read many psychological, philosophical, biographical and spiritual books and blocked out the more odious aspects of Maharaji's message and the general premie mind-set.
But then as now , I acknowledge a core wisdom in Maharaji's message....; something like , an experience rather than a message; and this experience is the ONE ESSENTIAL TRUTH that remains valid no matter how it gets adorned or spat upon.
And that one essential truth is also the silent yet dynamic space of our own consciousness. Our own true identity.
From reading some posts lately it becomes clear that many who post here struggle with their feelings and ideas about who they are. But as much as I can empathise with that I always perceive that there is only one REAL solution and that is the pristene consciousness that we are all capable of becoming aware of.
And to realise that and to practice a type of focus on that most of us need teachers to inspire us and/or to show us a few tricks of the trade.
I know that many will disagree strongly with what I'm saying here but Raphael I felt to give you a little of my perspective too and wish you all the best which ever way your journey goes.
Best Wishes, Keith
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Date: Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 16:32:17 (EST)
From: eb
Email: None
To: Rafael
Subject: Rafael thanks all who answered
Message:
Dear Rafael,

Maharaji's 4 techniques and more are described and pictured in the book, 'The Do-In' by Michio Kushi, the guru of Macrobiotics.

eb
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Date: Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 20:39:34 (EST)
From: Keith
Email: golddiva@wire.net.au
To: Robyn
Subject: To Robyn and Raphael
Message:
Dear Robyn,
I have just read your post to me below and felt to respond up here .
Firstly I agree with Katie and Petebear .
Please start being kinder to yourself. Less of something and more of something else; so as to balance in a way that leads onto more rest and sleep, and time just for yourself.

Also your post made me want to modify or rather add something to my above post to Raphael, so if you're there Raphael this is for you too.
So Raphael,
In Robyn's response to you above she said that it was not needed to have a teacher.
And I kind of disagreed with that.
Well I don't take back anything I said , but would like to add that I also agree with Robyn. It's the old saying , 'a good teacher is there to help you help yourself'.
But there is a big place for you helping yourself without any teacher....and then you become your own teacher.
Now back to Robyn's post; Robyn it becomes clear that you have had many experiences that have been like powerful messages from the spiritual realm (I promised to drop the word mystical to show how unattached to specific words I am) powerful guidance, sublime intuitions or insights or feelings that belong to a different order to that of the mental-rational dimension.
So have I. That doesn't make us super-duper show-offs like some people might like to think of us. I am not trying to grandstand. And I know you are not too.
We are simply wanting to express and not surpress aspects of ourselves that we experience as not only authentic but also sacred. Is that so? Don't let me put ideas into your head; but is what I'm saying striking a concordant note?
Actually the word SACRED is I feel a good replacement for the mys......word.
Robyn, I am worried about you overloading yourself.
I too must be careful ...and that is why must also cut back on my forum participation for a while ; at least limit my posts to sharing with one or two 'friends' like yourself .
So both of you , Robyn and Raphael,
Take care of yourselves ,
Love , Keith
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Date: Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 21:05:01 (EST)
From: Keith
Email: golddiva@wire.net.au
To: Katie
Subject: To Katie
Message:
Katie,
Just read your post to me below too.
About timidity and assertiveness,etc.
Good luck with the assertiveness training!
Surely this forum is an excellent avenue in which to practice.
Years ago, in my twenties and early thirties I had a big problem with wanting to be liked and approved of by everyone.
I still have something of that in my makeup ; the eternal mediator; the nice guy; but I've learnt to look into all that a lot and assert myself more ; which includes speaking out ; saying what I want and need to say even if I lose a few friends along the way.
Some may not respect the really outspoken me ; but I've found that the relationships that are developed by open and honest sharing are full of mutual respect and love and the rest are not worth holding onto anyway.
Anyway I do feel you are a genuine person.
Love , Keith.
Ps; I've posted my e-mail address , so if you or Robyn or Raphael or anyone else wants to e-mail me feel free.
I still don't feel to engage in an isolated 'mystical' camp-site, as if all these themes don't overlap!
Robyn, if you're there , why don't you copy and paste the things you wrote on the other site and send them to me via e-mail?
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Date: Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 22:26:33 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: Keith
Subject: To Robyn and Raphael
Message:
Dear Keith,
I not only agree that I want to express and not supress this part of myself but I also want to learn more from others with similar backgrounds. I said somewhere that I am not so sure these things come from a 'creator' just another word to me. It is all wonderous as is pregnancy. It all is within our abilities. I do not connect to the idea of a god, big man living in a cloud. That to me is the 'creator'. I believe in a life force, a term change also from universal energy. I do 'speak' to this force but more in a feeling of being a part of it, getting into sinc(sp), I masacared that one, hope you can figure it out!, with it so I can flow with it and it seems to work. I will, for example ask that I heal a certain part of me. Do anything conscience that I can to reach my goal but for MANY years I did the conscience part with out the other and got NO WHERE! So this has worked for me.
What I was saying about being whipped helping me to not put up walls, when I had that healing experience with the blue light, I had little sleep for a couple weeks, I am sure, it was exam time and then sobbing for an hour in the car thinking about the whole situation tore down any barriers I may have blocked that experience out with. See what I mean. I feel like I am on the tip of the lake with the water lapping at my toes and all I am to discover is at the deepest point of the lake, in the middle. I LOVE the water and being submerged but I HATE getting wet! It can take me a couple hours. I feel like I am trying to get wet and into the deep part.
Robyn
Also I got a valarian tea mixture, rose hips, cammomile and peppermint. She didn't have the melatonin or the valarien anything. This is a pretty good healthfood store and has been here for 15 or more years and the owner is knowledgable but it is, alas, still country bumkinville.
Robyn
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Date: Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 05:03:14 (EST)
From: carol
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: To Keith
Message:
Keith, you said to Robyn and Raphael, 'I too must be careful ...and that is why must also cut back on my forum participation for a while ; at least limit my posts to sharing with one or two 'friends' like yourself'

So THAT'S why you didn't answer my post to you! You are forgiven. Could it be soccer, too?
carol
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Date: Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 21:00:44 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Rafael
Subject: Rafael thanks all who answered
Message:
Hey, Buddy! Who are you calling 'somewhat paranoid?'

I, for one, am NOT paranoid. It's just that people like you are always plotting against me behind my back, and I have to be continuously vigilent of that. I'm sure you can understand this.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 22:20:40 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Rafael
Subject: Rafael thanks all who answered
Message:
Hey Rafael, why do you refer to yourself in the third person? Why does the BM refer to himself in the third person? You aren't picking up any programming now, are you? Just wondering.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 22:26:27 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Rafael
Subject: PS to Rafael
Message:
You're are real idiot if you go ahead and receive Knowledge and deliberately get involved in this stupid cult.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 22:20:40 (EST)
From: Sir David of Cheddar
Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com
To: Rafael
Subject: OK I was wrong
Message:
OK perhaps I was wrong. Being suspicious goes with my star sign. Ask Jim, he's the expert on that. Of course other people teach these techniques and in fact,I don't think Maharaji teaches them very well. If you do meditate you'll probably modify the techniques to your own liking anyway. Most people do.
There's nothing mysterious about the techniques. Meditation on your breath is hardly a secret. Seeing light is a natural phenomenon and there are various techniques taught to aid this. The second and fourth techniques have also been around for donkey's years. Listening out for sounds inside and the yogic tongue excersise have been used in India for centuries and are actually normal kundalini yoga methods.
I don't think Maharaji is a very good meditation teacher, myself. And I don't believe ANYBODY has the wisdom to direct your life for you. That is something we have to do for ourself. Look, I tried letting Maharaji direct my life and it turned out a complete disaster. Take heed dear brother.
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Date: Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 05:07:41 (EST)
From: carol
Email: None
To: Sir David of Cheddar
Subject: Well said,David
Message:
!!!carol
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Date: Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 06:27:53 (EST)
From: Mirabai
Email: None
To: Rafael
Subject: Rafael thanks all who answered
Message:
Dear Rafael, you said the following. I've cringed at times over the years when maharaji seemed to be bragging that he had the very latest technological things.

'M. once spoke of a piano he had bought. He seemed proud when he said that it once stood in The Royal Albert Hall, only two of it´s kind. He had to ship it over and he obviosly had maid a real bargain. That disturbed me, it sounded far to marerialistic and vain to come from a realised soul, to me anyway! I mean he dosen´t even play the piano, does he?'

It's good to have an open mind in regard to M and to anything else for that matter. I'd always been willing to be critical of M over the years but this site really challenged me in ways that I'd not been previously.

I've had a number of teachers, books etc that have really helped me,but mostly they have all been an inspiration for me to go within myself and realise that the teacher does reside within; although it may be downright difficult to recognize at times

I feel that our very nature is peaceful,but we just need to uncover it,in a manner of speaking. What we seek we already have,but we just need to keep on re -remembering it or re-discovering it.

Watching children can be educational in realising that what we seek is really very simple. Living in the present and being honest in that moment is a great step toward peace of mind and soul or whatever you want to call yourself.

best wishes Mirabai

p.s. I have had knowledge and am content to continue to practise.
But from my experience there are no short cuts to real fulfillment. It's been a tough journey for me,despite having knowledge. Going within does not automatically make us happy. In some ways going within has helped to bring out my deepest and darkest feelings.

In fact for the past 13 years, so much has been cleansed from me. Feeling feelings and letting go has been part of my process. Not something that seems to fit in Ms world. The need to work through things and express what is inside of us.

I think people get confused in Ms world. There is much talk of the beautiful experience within, but no mention of the difficulties involved and our need to share about such things.

Bye again for now!
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Date: Sun, Jun 14, 1998 at 15:08:10 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Mirabai
Subject: Rafael, you be the judge
Message:
Mirabai said that going in does not automatically make us happy. She is so right. Do you honestly think that there is one thing in this life that is going to make you instantly happy? Is there one thing to take away all of the cares of the world? Well, I am sorry, but there is not. Charlatans have been getting rich off of people who seek this for a very long time. Listen to your common sense, good fellow. Then if you DO decide to very foolishly involve yourself, see how long the 'high' lasts. Do you have to get a video 'fix' every so often to keep it going? Go to a program to get 'blissed out?' How do you feel when you are away from this precious little world--when you are out there in reality? Any better? You be the judge.
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Date: Sun, Jun 14, 1998 at 18:22:13 (EST)
From: Iola
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: The Fix
Message:
Do you have to get a video 'fix' every so often to keep it going?
3 times a week (1 hour for the video and 1 hour for travel time = 6 hours--sometimes more)

Go to a program to get 'blissed out?' (Yes. It all seems so easy then. It all falls into place. IT'S SOOOOO BEAUTIFUL)

How do you feel when you are away from this precious little world--when you are out there in reality? (OFTEN LOUSY AND GUILTY FOR NOT TRYING HARDER)

Any better? (NO!)

You be the judge. (I'M WORKING ON IT.)

There is no quick fix!
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Date: Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 10:36:39 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Hans Yog Prakash 16-19
Message:
Page 16

After a great deal of study, we feel as though we have made some progress on the spiritual path, and even come to believe we have received spiritual Knowledge. We argue and debate and think ourselves wise.

But if we are discriminating, we will realise that although we have made intellectual progress, we have not advanced on the path of self-realisation at all. On the contrary, it seems that the more intellectual progress we make, the more we are retarded spiritually.

Those who think themselves to be wise and learned, but who are actually ignorant of the truth, are fools who will lose their way and end up turning round and round in circles.

Many people never hear about the soul, and many do not understand even when they do hear about it. Without a doubt, whoever explains the subject of the soul is outstanding. He who receives his explanation is clever, and he who is trained by a wise Guru is also outstanding.

The soul cannot be understood or explained properly except by a perfectly realised soul. The soul cannot be understood by meditation, but when a wise man begins to teach us, we are immediately freed from this world, and become steady and strong. This is a very subtle subject, and cannot be proved.

One can only have Knowledge of the soul by means of experience. This experience comes from Knowledge of the Satguru. Thus one should not dismiss this Truth by means of arguments. For by the grace of the Guru, the self can easily be realised. The Satguru is outstanding, He is the Knower of the self, for only He who knows the Truth can reveal it.

Arjuna, the man of self control is without pride or arrogance. He does no harm to anyone, but filled with forgiveness, simplicity of mind and word, he serves the Satguru with respect and devotion in every way.

Clean both inside and out, his mind is steady and controlled and as a result his body and senses are steady and controlled also.

Therefore Arjuna, leave the support and shelter of all other duties and actions, and come to Me, the embodiment of Truth, pure Consciousness and Bliss, the Supreme Soul. I will free you from your sins, don't worry.

Complete surrender means to relinquish shame, fear, respect, fame and one's attachments to body and family, and to realise the Guru is one's only shelter, the only way, and everything in the three worlds.

Remember the power, form and qualities of the Name of the Lord
according to Satguru's teachings and with the utmost respect, devotion

Page 17

and love. Concentrate your mind and heart, and meditate upon God. You should do this so that you fulfil your duty as commanded you by Satguru, for His sake alone, as King Janaka did in his own time.

Take refuge in the Lotus Feet of Satguru. Just as a clean piece of cloth is quickly dyed, one who takes complete shelter of his Satguru is merged in His grace.

(Here two pages are missing from the original text)

Page 18

They cannot understand the meaning of a Guru-mantra. They don't even know what a Guru gives.

If they hear a wonderful and uplifting spiritual discourse, they may be overwhelmed for a short time. They may even change their ideas or their religion for some time, on the pretext that they are broad minded. But this brings them no benefit except that they satisfy their curiosity.

For them, the need to hear new things everyday has become a disease. A new idea will give them a little excitement, like a glass of wine, but after some time they will look for something else. Religion becomes an intoxicant for them, like opium.

There is a type of oyster, which floats on the sea with its mouth open. When one drop of dew enters its mouth, it closes and drops to the bottom of the sea. When a diver at last retrieves it he finds the dew drop has turned into a pearl.

In the same way, the sincere seeker of Truth keeps an open mind in this world and waits for the Word of the Satguru. The moment he receives it he dives deep into meditation and practices. After this, every word he speaks is a precious pearl.

The tiny Banyan seed grows into a huge tree, but if the land is infertile it will never grow. In the same way, if a disciple's mind is full of hypocrisy and doubt, the Knowledge cannot flourish.

When someone is sick, he approaches a doctor, tells him his trouble and receives a prescription for some medicine. But he must take the medicine faithfully and regularly as prescribed until his disease is cured.

In the same way, a seeker of Truth who is suffering from the bondage of birth and death will approach the Satguru, who will give him the medicine of Knowledge. If the disciple practices the Knowledge regularly, he will be cured.

If a patient fails to take his medicine as prescribed, it cannot do him any good, and if a disciple does not follow his Guru's instructions, he will never achieve the result he is aiming for.

Just repeating 'sugar, sugar' does not bring a sweet taste to the mouth. If talking about something was enough to bring it to pass, we would have ended poverty long ago. People are always talking about money and wealth. But talking about wealth does not make one wealthy.

In the same way we cannot get any benefit from simply repeating 'Guru's Word, Guru's Word.'

Page 19

There are many gurus in this world who relieve others of their wealth, but not their pain.

The Satguru is one who has no greed, no attachment, no pride, no jealousy. He always speaks of spiritual matters, and removes the jealousy, pain, doubt and attachment of others. He takes His stand on perpetual truth at all times, His expression is pleasing and he is nicely dressed.

His power is unlimited, and in His love and mercy for His devotees, He teaches them the proper and righteous path.

Satguru is He who never even dreams of anger or fear, but who speaks soft words full of love and wise council for all.

He removes our worries, and gives us good advice. He shows us in truth what actions are right and what actions are wrong, what is virtue and what is vice, and thus He dispels all the suffering in our life.

Take the shelter of such a Satguru. Offer Him your mind, your body, and all that you own, even your son, wife, family, and servants. Give Him everything with love and devotion. To support yourself, take only what He gives you.

Understanding yourself to be a beggar, bow before His Lotus Feet.
Congratulate yourself on your good fortune, and bow your head at His feet.

Know that no one is superior to the Guru. If someone thinks the Guru is a human being, that is his misfortune. He is of dull intelligence like a bull without a tail. The entire world knows that Guru is greater than God.

People are born into the suffering of this world, into the cycle of birth and death, and trapped in the web of illusion. But when the Guru showers His Grace upon you, all the pain of this world vanishes. Then you may enjoy eternal happiness, and live in the realm of Truth forever.

The Creator, Preserver and Destroyer are all to be found in this world, but no one is greater than Guru. Can your friend, your brother, son, father or mother help you as the Grace of Guru can?

No harm can come to one who has Satguru for his saviour. If God is angry,Guru is always there to save you, but if Guru is angry you have no place to go for shelter.

All the scriptures agree that without the Guru, all is lost. Without the Guru, the heart can never become pure, even if we try a hundred thousand different methods.

Without the Guru we cannot receive Knowledge nor achieve true
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Date: Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 10:39:46 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Hans Yog Prakash 20-23
Message:
Page 20

discrimination. Without the Guru there is no salvation, for without His Grace we are as good as dead. Without the Guru we are in the hands of death, suffering and remorse.

Who can remove our doubts without the Grace of Guru? How will we ever gain discrimination? Without Guru we will remain in ignorance forever, and never receive the Knowledge of God.

It is easy to sing songs about the Knowledge of the Supreme, but without the help of Guru you will never receive it. So you should take full advantage of this human body while you have it, and find your Satguru.

You can study all the scriptures to your heart's content, you may even live a peaceful life in the worlds of mind, body and spirit, but without the Guru you will never receive perfect Knowledge.

All the great saints have bowed at the Lotus Feet of Guru. He who
criticises his Guru is the most unfortunate of men. One should not even listen to criticism of one's Guru.

Resolve to receive the darshan of Satguru. No one should come before Guru Maharaj Ji without bringing a fruit, flower, leaf or some other offering.

One should be very humble and full of love, bowing at the Lotus Feet of Guru Maharaj Ji. Whatever he commands should be taken as a gift and accepted with bowed head.

When one is in Guru Maharaj Ji's presence, one's hands should be folded and one's speech should be humble and soft. One should never stretch one's legs before Him, but should keep them folded under the body. One should not cross the room in front of Him, and should never even step on His shadow.

Never keep anything hidden from Guru Maharaj Ji. And never tell him anything that is untrue. The words of Guru Maharaj Ji are like scripture.

Know that Guru is the Supreme Lord. We should accept all that He says without judgement, and should offer Him whatever nice thing comes our way. The power of Guru is so fantastic that whatever we offer comes back to us a thousand fold.

Worshipping Guru properly and completely is the only thing to do. It removes all our sins, and fulfils every desire of the mind.

He who invites Guru Maharaj Ji to dine with him, thereby feeds the people of the three worlds. The Grace and mercy of Satguru are unlimited. Even the scriptures, even the angels cannot praise Him enough. One kind glance from Satguru turns a beggar into a king.

This is the power of Satguru, that whatever there is in this world, it is all by the glory of Satguru. He is the source of all

Page 21

strength and power. He is the giver of great bliss, He is our only help in times of danger and suffering.

Guru even removes the fear of death. He who takes the shelter of the Satguru will have all the happiness in the world, poverty will never touch him, and his life will be full of unexpected boons. If you find anyone who is worthy, give him this Knowledge. This is the Supreme Secret. Great indeed is that village, great are those parents, great is that family and great are those friends where a devotee is born.

Page 22

BENEVOLENCE

To work hard to remove the misfortune of others is the mark of (illegible) and benevolence is the sign of good men and saints. The more serious a crisis is, the more important the help bestowed will be. If we help remove someone's agony for one second, we have done a good work. To remove a thorn from someone's body, to offer water to the thirsty, to feed the hungry, these are good acts; but if we help somebody for a year then proportionately this help is greater.

Spiritual Knowledge alone has the power to kill the death-pain at the end of our life. For this reason the bestowing of this Knowledge is the highest form of benevolence.

There is no other learning whose power goes beyond a certain limited time. Spiritual Knowledge alone has the power to install one in the Kingdom of heavenly bliss. It completely destroys desire and its offspring, dissatisfaction, Which always reside within human bodies. Under such circumstances, what act can be more virtuous than the spreading of spiritual Knowledge?

The great soul who shows the way to perfection is the only true well wisher of humanity. Unparalleled power resides in such great souls. Whatever we do in this world we do on the strength of our reasoning power. Without this power we would treat our body as a lump of clay. Therefore, a person who experiences this power in its proper perspective, as do these great souls, will be able to perform all his actions correctly, and a person who does not experience the power within himself will be unable to pursue even his own interests, let alone the interest of the Supreme.

If any Knowledge is useful after spiritual Knowledge it is intellectual knowledge.
The imparting of intellectual knowledge is much superior to the giving of clothes and food, because the main objective of a man, which is to fulfil his creativity, cannot be accomplished without such knowledge. For one who has never experienced any creativity, to live or to die would be the same. What use is a life spent In ignorance and suffering?

The next most important help we can offer people after giving them these two types of knowledge is physical. To help others by means of one's physical strength is truly a kind of charity. But we should not think that physical service is the only way to lessen the sufferings of others. As a matter of fact physical service is one of the lower forms of service, because it brings only immediate relief. Physical help leaves no permanent change in the situation Feeding a hungry man certainly removes his immediate pain, but he will soon become hungry again. We should understand that wherever there is necessity, suffering is also to be found. If we really want to be happy, there should be no feeling of necessity in our lives. The day our sense of need is completely removed, we will be instantly and truly happy. In that state, hunger will not be an obstacle for us, and no worldly incident will have lessen our joy.

Page 23

We should understand that the help we need to attain such a state is the most of all. Next in order comes intellectual help and then comes physical help. The unhappiness that we see in this world cannot be eradicated by physical help alone. Unless the way people behave is also totally changed, people will still feel bound by a variety of needs. If these needs are not fulfilled, unhappiness is sure to result. Thus physical help alone is insufficient to remove unhappiness from the earth. The most potent medicine for all suffering is to purify the mind by receiving true Knowledge. One saint has said that if a man's mind is pure, even his enemy becomes his friend and even the snake and the tiger look upon him with love.

All sins and sufferings spring from ignorance. Humanity will be completely happy when man has been introduced to his own power of consciousness and when full self confidence in it has grown, following the realisation of the Knowledge of Truth. We should not even hope for that state of world happiness before this. Even if each household distributes alms daily to the poor, the present predicament of humanity can never be erased. Unless the nature of man as we see it today undergoes a complete change the world will continue in its present distressing state.

Lord Krishna tells us in various places in the Bhagavad-Gita that man must work every day. And it was his considered opinion that work 'is the father of all success.' Yet each action that we take leads to a mixture of joy and sorrow. Despite all this we must go on working. It is a complete misunderstanding to think that because actions result in joy and sorrow, we can be free from joy and sorrow by avoiding action

Actions produce joy and sorrow in the same proportions, as the actions themselves are good or bad. Joy springs from virtuous action, sorrow from bad action. Even so joy binds a soul in the same way as sorrow. Even though we can experience it as a fact that joy comes from virtuous action, that is not the whole story. In fact the joy is already within us, but we can only realise it through virtuous action. As long as we remain under the misconception that joy is produced by virtuous action, our soul cannot escape the double-edged sword of joy and sorrow. So Lord Krishna tells us we should completely abandon the idea that we will do such and such a type of work in order to enjoy such and such a type of joy. When we have a duty to perform we must perform it, but we must give up the idea that it will bring us joy.

'Man has the right to work but not to the results of his work. Work should be done, but there should not be no attachments to its results.' Now we have to understand what non-attachment is. The main point of the Bhagavad-Gita is that every action should be performed with detachment. Everyone must work, but he should do so without desiring the fruits of his labour.

If we compare the mind to a tank of water, we may say that just as small waves arise in the water, so waves are also produced in the mind. Even though the waves of the mind cannot be perceived
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Date: Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 10:44:56 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Hans Yog Prakash 24-26
Message:
Page 24

(illegible) .....
hidden in the mind and reappear when a suitable opportunity arises. These waves are known as mental impressions or 'sanskaras' in the terminology of the Indian scriptures. Some such inborn impressions are to be found in every living creature.

Whatever actions we take and whatever thoughts we nurture in our mind have an effect on our mind. This influence remains hidden in our mind, but even while it remains hidden, its effect on our mind is still taking place. Whatever behaviour we are exhibiting at present is a result of the impressions that we gathered in the past. In daily life we refer to the sum of these impressions as our 'nature.'

This nature which each man has is called his character. If his impressions are good, he becomes someone of good character, and if his previous Impressions are bad, he becomes someone of bad character. If someone continues to listen to evil suggestions, invite bad thoughts and perform evil deeds, then the impressions in his mind will also be evil, and the character that is built on these will be evil too. If somehow the habits which these impressions lead to, get a strangle hold on the mind, then he will be unable to see the disadvantages of evil acts, they will become invisible to him and it will become a part of his nature to do evil unthinkingly. In the course of time these impressions will gather so much momentum that he will become inclined to perform evil deeds deliberately. Even if he has also received some good impressions, they will not have any chance of withstanding the influences of the negative impressions.

In the same way, someone whose thoughts are good and who performs good deeds, will be induced by the good impressions which they bring to perform even greater deeds in the future. Such a man's character becomes so solid by virtue of these good impressions that even if the thought of doing something negative crosses his mind, his body will absolutely refuse to budge an inch to perform such an action. When such a state of affairs comes about, we may understand that that man's character has become stable.

Consider the tortoise. If someone starts to tease him he will hold his head and limbs in under his shell, and no matter how much his tormentor may drum on his back, he will keep his limbs withdrawn until he is sure the danger is passed

Similarly, he who gains control of his senses, even when he is tormented by the outside world, keeps his concentration firmly on the inner Word. Lord Krishna said 'He who has maintained a flow of good thoughts does not find it difficult to restrain the senses. His character, which is built of the good impressions he has received as a result of positive actions, helps him.' We should note that the word 'senses' does not merely refer here to the visual and other physical senses but also to the mind. Even without performing physical actions, the character can easily be soiled simply by concentrating on bad thoughts. When the senses are restrained, a man may be said to be well satisfied. The well satisfied man finds Truth.

It is in this way that one can transcend duality and arrive in place that is perfectly protected. One who has. achieved this state

Page 25

is incapable of performing any evil dead. Even if he is surrounded by the most wicked of beasts in human form, he will not deviate at all from his good character. This state is called 'being established In divinity.'

As soon as this state is reached by someone, he immediately attains liberation without being snared by any kind of delusion. This is the aim of every yogi, the condition which he strives. to attain. On the surface it may seem as though the paths taken by various saints are different from one another, but they all lead to this same place. The same state of consciousness which Buddha attained by following the path of devotion, and which Christ reached by following the path of devotion can also be reached by the active path, karma yoga. Although the enlightened one, Buddha, was a karma yogin, and Jesus was a pious devotee, both of them reached the same state.

Now we must explain something of what the liberated condition actually is. One who becomes free of the polarities of joy and sorrow and of good and bad actions becomes liberated. Just as sadness and bad actions are impediments to liberation, so also good actions and joyfulness are obstacles on the path. One binds with chain of lead and the other with a chain of gold, maybe, but the bondage remains the same. A person who enjoys the pleasure that he experiences upon performing charitable actions is in fact as tied up to his actions as the man who experiences remorse or pain as a result of his bad actions.

When we get a splinter in our foot, we may use another splinter or a pin to got it out, but once. it Is out, we throw both away. In the same way, we have to perform good actions in order to rid our mind of evil habits. But once the mind turns away from evil deeds, we have no further use for the good deeds either. At this point we have to check our mind from dwelling on our good deeds, just as earlier we had to check it from concentrating on our bad deeds. We should cultivate non-attachment, which means not feeling obliged to perform any particular actions. We should work. But we should not let it disturb the calmness of our mind. Just as waves arise on the surface of a pool, and slowly fade away, but the peacefulness of the pool is not disturbed by them, in the same way says Lord Krishna 'Even while we are performing our duties, we should not lot the mind be disturbed.'

All the same it is our everyday experience that whatever actions we may perform, the mind invariably receives a measure of pleasure and pain from them. So how can we achieve the seemingly impossible? How can we keep our minds detached while performing actions in this twentieth century? Lord Krishna tells us to do whatever we do with detached mind. He tells us not to let the impressions of our actions arise in the mind again and again. We should continue to use the senses and organs at our disposal to perform our duties but we should not allow our efforts to have any impact on the mind. We must see every object in this world in the same way that we see the furniture in the house where we are a guest. We should always be industrious but never attached. There is no disadvantage in hard work, but to be attached to worldliness is detrimental on the path to salvation.

Page 26

One day I visited a house where a number of people had gathered.
I saw them all, but I particularly noticed one of them, a disciple of mine.
My eye fell on each of their faces equally, yet on]y one of them
‘caught my eye’. And this was because I never had seen the others
before, and so had no previous impressions in my mind regarding them.
But I felt affection for my disciple.

I had seen him several times before, and so I already had some
impressions about him in my mind. I had heard many people talking
about him in other occasions, too, and I had often thought about him myself. So on that particular day, as soon as his image reached my mind, it came in contact with old impressions that were already there, and these impressions refreshed my memory of him. Up to that point, the impressions had been lying dormant in my mind, but as soon as his face appeared in my mind, the memories returned. And that devotee welcomed me with love, too.

We can understand from this, that whatever is brought repeatedly
to the attention of the mind, establishes firm root there, and can then be activated by the slightest reference at any time.

In the course of my daily work, I come in contact with many
many people. But suppose there is one of them I love more than all
the rest. Before I go to sleep at night, I try to remember everyone whom I have seen in the course of the day. Yet of all those people, the only one whose face I can recall at will is the one for whom I see affection. His face has been imprinted in my heart, his image has been imprinted on my mind so clearly that it cannot easily be forgotten.

The reason my mind is not attached to the other faces that I
saw is that they are not imprinted in my heart. For this reason, I
am his whom I love, and he is mine who loves me. This attachment is a hindrance to the love of God.

Saint Tulsi Das says,

« Whatever love you have had for this world,
now concentrate it all on God.

We have not come to this planet to live here forever. This
world is like an inn by the side of our path. We have stopped a while in many such places before, and we have no idea how many more we shall pass through on our way. There is no telling how long this cycle of coming, staying and going has been in progress.

Indeed, the whole creation is created for the spirit, and we
should realize that the spirit is not created by the creation. This entire creation has manifested itself in order to help teach the individual soul. There is no other reason for creation apart from this. The purpose of creation is to permit the individual soul to realize Truth. When the soul receives Knowledge of the Truth, it attains salvation.

The creation is inert, untrue and changeable, like a dream.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 10:47:26 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Hans Yog Prakash 27-29
Message:
Page 27

In contrast, God is manifest Truth, Consciousness and Bliss. When we have looked into the book creation and also acquired the Knowledge of God, our soul should become realized, and should then put the book of creation aside.

If we fail to do this, we are turning our life upside down. As long as we do not realize our freedom, we will take ourselves to be (part of ?) the rest of creation, and we will think the universe is planned for the sake of the body, and that it is the duty of spirit to protect the body and ensure its happiness. In this day and age we take over thing which brings happiness to the body to be an act of goodness, and imagine it can lead us towards salvation.

We say of someone who overeats, 'he doesn't eat to live, he lives to eat ' When we look into our own lives, we will find that our state is little different from that of the man who compulsively overeats. Since we have decided that we too are creatures in this creation, we feel attached to all the other objects of creation as (brothers ?). Once this attachment has caught a hold on the individual soul, it begins to work like a slave. The Bhagavad-Gita tells us to work unceasingly and indeed we do. But instead of acting as the master we become the slave of what was made to serve us. This is why we have drifted so far from our aim, so far from what is natural to us, so far from salvation.

The main instruction for the practice of Karma Yoga is that you must perform actions, but perform them freely. Never forget that the final aim of your actions is salvation. If you look, you will see that ninety per cent of the people around you who are engaged in doing actions, are performing them as slaves to the desire of bodily rewards and comforts. This is why there is so much complaining in this world. Therefore you should forget your body in the search for salvation, and setting aside the craving for physical comfort, you should perform actions having first been filled with love for the soul. This is known as the yoga of non-attachment.

The word 'love' denotes something which is not directly perceptible. True love is not possible without total independence. You can buy a man as though he were a slave, bind him hand and foot, and force him to work for you. Certainly he will do the work, but can there be any love for you in his heart? It is the same with the soul. It has become a slave to the senses. While it is working day and night to satisfy their demands, it finds it impossible to develop love in its heart. In some cases it even becomes ready to slit people's throats in the search for sensual pleasures. However much a man who is in this state may try, he can never accomplish anything worth while. It matters little whether his efforts are made for the sake of himself or of his family and friends. His actions are worth nothing. So long as what we do is inspired by a desire for pleasure, we are behaving like slaves. But when true love is our inspiration, our actions will naturally bring us complete joy. There is not one action inspired by true love which does not bring peace to the mind and joy to the heart.

Knowledge, ever-present consciousness, and love, these three are always found together. We must understand that these three are our......

Page 28

life, and that if we have one of them, automatically the other two will he present also. We must come to realize that consciousness, knowledge and love are three branches of the same tree, three waves in the same pond. The name of the primordial form is Truth- Consciousness-Bliss. Truth appears to us decorated in the form of the manifest creation. Consciousness appears as knowledge of the various parts of creation. And the element of love is expressed in the hearts of all living beings originates from bliss. 'Thus, misery can never be the result of true love. Now we have to answer the question, if love is always full of bliss, then why do people in love so often appear to be grieving?

Let us take an example, one that crops up all over the world. A man loves a woman so much that he can see nothing else. His dreams and his thoughts are full of her. O, what divine love!

But wait, let us dissect this love according to the scriptures, and then we can understand its real nature. The man in question wants his woman to remain always by his side, to eat and drink by his side. The idea is that she should remain a virtual slave of his, as if she had nothing else to do, no independent existence. Every word he utters bears out this fact. But having made her his slave, he also turns himself into her slave. Now tell me, can the love of these two slaves be everlasting? If she leaves him for a moment, she leaves him miserable. Real love is never like this. This is just a whim. These people are caught up in their desires, which spring from sensual attraction.

Since this man has become crazy, he mistakes this feeling for love. He gets caught up in it and begins to dance, imagining his momentary and false love to be the divine love. Indeed he manages to catch other people up in his craziness too. If the woman refuses, to obey his instructions, it doesn't take long for his mind to become disturbed. Misery can never he found in the path of pure love. Where there is disturbance, there is no pure love. People become involved in this other thing believing it to be love by mistake. But it is not pure love. The day you experience pure love for anyone, whether it be your wife, your son, or anyone else, you will know the secrets of universal love, and the same day it will be absolutely. clear to you what non-attachment really is.

'0 Arjuna,' says Krishna, 'I perform actions not because I look for anything in return but because 1 love this world, and I keep its welfare in mind. If I perform no actions, others will also cease to perform actions, and as a result this world will be defiled and destroyed.

These words or Lord Krishna give us a good insight into the meaning of non-attachment and true love. Although the Lord has no desire on His own account, He performs His actions out of love. This is the meaning of non-attachment. If the slightest desire for pleasure arises, non-attachment and love vanish at once. The love of the man who enjoys sensual pleasures does not go beyond physical objects. We say that so-and-so has fallen in love with so-and-so, but in fact he has fallen in love with her body. He thinks about the different....

Page 29

parts of her body, and the attraction he feel is what we call love. But in fact this type of love can be interrupted very easily, and agony can result. Real love is quite different. It is never attached to physical objects, but only to the consciousness within them. This consciousness is beyond physical objects, it dwells in every soul uniformly. People who are in true love experience no ups and downs. Their love is constant, it call never be destroyed. And it can never lead to grief.

It is not an easy matter to obtain this type of non-attachment. We must practice it every moment. It is seldom that this love grows by sheer coincidence. When we attain non-attachment true or salvation is also ours. At this point, the bondage of this world begins to crumble, and creation gives up trying to manufacture fetters and chains to bind us. By walking on this path, we avoid having to suffer for the consequences of our actions, whether they be good or bad, and we also find no need to investigate whether our work is sweet or sour.

Let us be frank now. Is the love we feel for those we call 'our own' true love or not? We have to admit that the love we feel for our families and friends is not true love. It does not deserve the name, for it is partly born of self seeking. If we analyze our natures carefully, we can begin to see that we seldom go beyond selfishness. Although we may say that something we are doing is completely for the sake of others, for the sake of our family or country, when we get down to it, we find that deep in our heart we are craving for fame and honor. We have seen that wherever there is the slightest desire to see some fruits of our actions, true love cannot enter in. And where there is no true love, how can we have non-attachment?

It follows that whatever we are doing, we should do as a duty, and no more. It is not beneficial for us to harbour any hope for returns on our labor. The more steadfastly we work in this way, the more that true non-attachment will begin to grow in us.

We have already noticed that we are slaves to our sensual desires. If we perform the actions of slave, we will find the fruits of our actions become obstacles along our path. But if we keep control of our senses and act like a master, that is to say without desire, we attain salvation. Lord Krishna expresses it thus:

'He who has control of his senses
is established in wisdom.'

We are always hearing people talking about rights and justice. in my opinion, talking a great deal about these subjects is a complete waste of breath. There are two virtues that we can easily recognize in the day to day dealings of human beings. The first is compassion and the second is ability. Normally, any given person will manifest one or other of these characteristics more than the other. When one forgets compassion, and begins to show off his ability, his selfishness remains on the increase. This state of affairs has now become so common that it is very hard to find compassion anywhere.
A.....
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Date: Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 10:49:47 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Hans Yog Prakash 30 ....
Message:
Page 30

heart in which compassion dwells is an expression of heaven itself. He who has a compassionate heart is the most fortunate of men. it is almost impossible to find someone with a true sense of justice in this world. Thus the composing of laws and judgements should be left in the hands of men of compassion.

If there is anything which comes in the way of spiritual intellect, it is the desire to reap the fruits of one's own action. A desire such as this will not help us to develop our spiritual intellect. Rather, it may bring many other crises down on our heads. To perform our actions without desire, is the best way to worship Him. When we have given something to God, we do not ask for it back. In the same way we should surrender to Him all our good and bad actions. If we always bear this in mind while we are performing action, then this habit will gradually grow in us. If we consecrate each of our actions to God, then we cannot desire to receive the fruit of our actions from anyone.

'Whatever you do, whatever you eat, whatever sacrifices you offer, whatever gifts you give, whatever austerities you undergo, 0 Kauntey, do it as an offering to Me.'

The Incarnate Lord, who has always worked in this way, and who has never had any desire for the fruits of His actions, remains eternally free. And so it is with anyone who lives in this way, no matter if he lives in a great city where vice and corruption abound, viciousness cannot touch him. A lotus leaf floats on the surface of the water, but still it does not become damp. In the same way, a man such as we speak of can remain free of sin even if he is dipped in the sink of iniquity.

He who performs his duties with his intellect surrendered to God, having given up attachment and the fruits of his actions, lives in this world but is not of this world. He is never entangled by the effects of his actions. He remains pure and undefiled, like a lotus leaf in water.

At the end of the great war, which is described in the Indian epic, the Mahabharata, the victorious Pandavas held a great festival to celebrate their triumph. During the course of this festival, they spent money like water, giving alms to all the poor and destitute of their kingdom. People were amazed at the generosity they showed. Everyone said they had never heard of such sacrifice.

As the festival was drawing to its end, a mongoose appeared, whose body was half gold and half like any other mongoose. He came to the place where the great sacrifice had been held, and rolled over and over in the dust. When he had finished this, he exclaimed 'How stupid can people be? Everybody here is talking about a sacrifice, but I see no signs of anyone having sacrificed anything.' People began telling the mongoose how foolish he was, and that the greatest sacrifice the world had ever seen had just taken place there.

(to be continued ..... in a few days .... please be patient .....
this very old most secret stuff ......requires some care ....)
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Date: Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 16:42:22 (EST)
From: red heels
Email: red_heels@hotmail.com
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Hans Yog Prakash 16-19
Message:
Please: Who is the author of Hans Yog Prakash (and what does the title mean, translated into English), and have pages 1-15 been posted? Thanks.
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Date: Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 02:59:26 (EST)
From: carol
Email: None
To: red heels
Subject: Hans Yog Prakash 16-19
Message:
Maharaji's deceased father and Satguru Shri Hansji Maharaj is the author. Carol
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Date: Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 03:17:54 (EST)
From: JM
Email: None
To: carol
Subject: First pages
Message:
The first paegs have already been posted, you should look into the recent archives ....
when the transcription will be over, I might repost the whole book: 50 pages
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Date: Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 10:33:00 (EST)
From: red heels
Email: red_heels@hotmail.com
To: JM
Subject: First pages
Message:
Okay, thanks. I did take a cursory look through the archives but got a bit overwhelmed because there is so much to look through and could take someone like me hours to find it. Could you tell me the date or near the date the first pages were posted? Maybe this would help. I would love to download those. Thanks! Does anyone know what Prakash means? Does it mean food that has been blessed???
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Date: Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 04:45:04 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: red heels
Subject: The BM's source of inspiration
Message:
That's really what it's all about !

Most of the BM's philosophy comes from this book.

He used to talk about it as Bible or something like
that.

What's also good about publishing it, is that he is
very pissed off about it .... all his little secrets
unveiled .... god know what well be the next ones!
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Date: Sun, Jun 14, 1998 at 00:31:23 (EST)
From: red heels
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: The BM's source of inspiration
Message:
I find it inspiring.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 06:58:42 (EST)
From: Bovine commensurables
Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Hey Bill boy
Message:
Bill; I wrote this earlier but perhaps you didn't see it. If you begin the FROM field with an asterix your message is wiped out in the Lynx web browser. Some people only use Lynx to read the forum so your wisdom is not reaching its full audience.

Could you please try posting something and starting the FROM field with an alphabetical character and I'll see if I can read it. Otherwise I have to use the other Bill's IE and it's a pain. Thanks.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 10:14:49 (EST)
From: Hey Bill Burke
Email: None
To: bill, honey
Subject: Sir D can't read your messages
Message:
See his message above!
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Date: Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 04:26:44 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Cosmic
Message:
Ok now that's got the attention of all the really serious people here....bugger the rest of you (who aren't reading this!)

I am working at a school. Today we were gazing out the window for a moment at the kids, so alive and active. I mused on my own school days for a moment. I had a feeling, like that story about the student who goes to collect water, falls in the river, lives a whole another life, then remembers and returns to the master, who acts as though nothing happened....

Sometimes I get that same feeling in my life, nothing to do with a master, just the feeling that I took a step at some time and a whole world opened up, I might have been living there for years, and then another time I find I have got back onto a track I was once on - in myself, and it feels so good, as though nothing has been lost, this is 'starting over' I think. The joy of being able to do this (and not look back) is quite profound - when I feel it.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 20:25:07 (EST)
From: Iola
Email: None
To: Judex
Subject: Cosmic
Message:
Do you ever look back? Do you think about MJ at all? Did K help you in any way? Was every bit of it horrible. What about coincidences in your life? Did you find you had more than a few along the way? Is it light inside your head. Did you notice a difference with that after you received K. It is all untrue. Do you have ringing in your ears from time to time.

Did all this get triggered by my mind?
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Date: Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 20:58:57 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Iola
Subject: Cosmic
Message:
Iola:

Unlike many on this sight (site) DLM was a positive development for me. It helped me get re-socialized after the train-wreck of the 60s. But look, that doesn't give the little glutton license to exploit me. Whatever the positive experiences I had in DLM, whether connected with meditation or with the social milieu, MAHARAJI KNEW NOTHING ABOUT IT. Nor does he care! There is no ambiguity connected with this. It's not a close call, on any level.

-Scott
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Date: Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 03:26:18 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: Iola
Subject: Answering Iola
Message:
Do you ever look back? Do you think about MJ at all?

At the moment it has just slipped away. I have no longings, no interest, no grief, nothing (but I did have some reactions - fear, emptiness - but they have passed). Just quietly trying to move on, but to keep the faith with myself: not to turn into a hater, not to lose my way, to deny my spiritual needs - just making peace with myelf and enjoying how much better life feels at the moment. Everything feels more real; I appreciate my life a lot more than I did.

Did K help you in any way? Was every bit of it horrible. What about coincidences in your life? Did you find you had more than a few along the way?

Yes I think it helped me. I am not sorry I received it and listened to M and did all that. I don't regret it - just that it's over

Is it light inside your head. Did you notice a difference with that after you received K. It is all untrue. Do you have ringing in your ears from time to time..

No I don't experience that and I didn't experience much practicing either.

Did all this get triggered by my mind?

I dont know, Iola but don't feel bad - you don't have to understand everything about yourself right now. Just let it be.
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Date: Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 04:04:12 (EST)
From: carol
Email: None
To: Iola
Subject: Cosmic
Message:
Dear Iola,
I received K in 1972 and was a true believer that M was God incarnate. I am glad to have experienced devotion and to have been in a community meeting and working beside many wonderful people, some of whom I will always love and some who I still see from time to time. I began to question or wonder who M really was around the late 70's but I didn't dwell on it or worry about it much. I loved him, and I believed that was what mattered most. My regular meditation practice of an hour in the morning and an hour in the evening began to decrease in about '75 when I had my 2nd son. I saw M regularly when possible, taking turns with my husband sometimes.

I have always heard 'music' or sounds and ringing in my ears, especially the one that is mostly deaf. I disliked the uncomfortable position of the light and music techniques and I modified them so I wasn't distracted by pain. These techniques are not new and do not belong to anyone and shouldn't be secret!

In '87 I was divorced from my premie husband and married a non-premie who was open and expressed interest in knowing more. He was not up to chasing all over the world to maybe get K, and he disliked watching videos, as I mostly did too.I have not contributed much to M in money because I didn't have much. The last time was when we were asked to help buy his jet. I felt along with my husband that there were charities who did much more for people than M, and we regularly give to them and to our current church about 5% of our income.

I loved the years when all the premies could give satsang and I personally benefitted from the experience and challenge of sincerely expressing myself publicly. I found it odd to be asked to stop. I enjoy being able to speak my mind or heart here.

In the last 10 years I've seen M 3 times, and been to a few videos. I just watched a video recently of M's birthday program in LB in '97. I am deprogramming myself from putting him between myself and my creator and I'm almost there. (I thought his daughters were beautiful and sincere. I had not seen them since they were small.) I wanted to go to Seattle as a closure and to find out if the fear and guilt was gone, but the event was cancelled. I'm not willing to go very far. I've had the realization that M simply is not who I had thought he was, as he said he was! I took that step less than 2 months ago, and I am becoming free.
carol
Keep reading and questioning...it's healthy.
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Date: Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 04:09:59 (EST)
From: carol
Email: None
To: Judex
Subject: Cosmic
Message:
That feeling of being yourself again is magical. I know it happens w/o drugs, but I distinctly remember that each time I became my high self on LSD it was a magical feeling like connectig to an old friend....like good to see you where HAVE you been! It's not so dramatic now, but still happens.
carol
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Date: Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 03:59:43 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Third Technique Update!
Message:
Hi everybody

I’ve received an interesting email from
a premie I personally know.
He received k recently, from the BM Himself.
That person was surprised when he read the explanations
of the 3rd technique as explained in the article on the site.

Here is how the BM Himself now explains the 3rd technique :

+++++++++++++++++++++++++

Dear Jean-Michel

I have decided to describe to you the 3rd technique the way I learnt it from Maharaji.

This is because I noticed it is different to the way described in the Info section of this site (although as I now know, things change quite a bit!)

I was told to close my eyes and imagine my master was swinging me on a swing. As he said those words, he showed a side-to-side motion. He said to just relax, don't force anything.

Later I found it hard to visualise going from side to side as I breathed in and out , so I asked Belkis in a Knowledge follow-up and she said she imagines swinging 'forward and back', more in the same direction as the natural motion of the breathe. So that's how I practiced it from then on. I always imagined Maharaji was swinging me and I was sitting on a swing
(there is a photo of him sitting on a swing, smiling that they sell at the events).

If you need any more clarification please ask. This is to the best of my memory.
I note it introduces the 'visualisation' or 'remembrance' of Maharaji himself into the meditation, unlike the way described on the site.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
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Date: Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 04:48:57 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Third technique history
Message:
Here is how the 3rd technique used to be explained in the early 70s :

1/ Unlike other modes of Japa (apply the mind un-interruptedly and without break, to a particular object), as embodied in the scriptures, the aspirant in the practice of Ajapa Jap is simply told to confine the attention of the mind on the ‘Flight of Hans’ within the nasal apertures (at the top of the nose), merely as a conscious subject. ‘Hansa’ is a mysterious sound movement, and so are the two other two famous Vedic Mantras - the ‘Om’ and the ‘So-Ham’. These 3 top-most Mantras of the Vedas are the subject matter of Para-Vani - the source of all spoken and written language.

Then, as the correction shows in the source (see below), it changed to :

2/ Unlike other modes of Japa (apply the mind un-interruptedly and without break, to a particular object), as embodied in the scriptures, the aspirant in the practice of Ajapa Jap is simply told to confine the attention of the mind on the ‘Flight of Hans’ within the nasal apertures (at the top of the nose), merely as a conscious subject. ‘Hans’ is a mysterious sound movement which is the subject matter of Paravani - the source of all spoken and written language and can be understood by the grace of a Satguru.

(Source : ‘Satgurudev Shri Hans Ji Maharaj, Published by Divine Light Mission, B-19/3, Shakti Nagar, Delhi 7, India - Page 53)

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Here is how it’s been explained in the 70s-80s :

First : Concentrate on the breath as it comes in and goes out. Rrepeat the words 'so' and 'hung' on each inward and outward breath

Then : Keep your eyes closed. Be aware of your breath going in, and your breath going out. Breath normally. Follow what you feel, and let your focus go inside.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++*

My first temporary conclusion is that Satgurus explained Holy Name in different ways, and that there might be several Holy Names.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 08:51:52 (EST)
From: Cheddar with attitude
Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Third technique history
Message:
Meditation on the breath is a pretty standard form of meditation which is practised the world over. Pregnant mothers are often told to meditate on their breath and breath meditation is a standard form of relaxation therapy. If gurus want to add things to it to make it sound more mystical then so be it. But it's just the breath goddamnit!

Adding Hindu words and mantras to it or visualisations of the master only serves to try to make it appear like some special knowledge. In my view such additions only interfere with something that is quite naturally ours - the breath. There's no need to add a mantra or visualisation to the naturally occuring breath.

For those people who want a mantra to practise while doing breath meditation, here's one which you'll find helpful.

On the in breath repeat the word FUCK and on the out breath repeat the word YOU. This is the divine 'word' that is written about in scriptures. This has been called the 'Mahamantra' and has been passed down from master to devotee for countless ages. Visualisation of the master may also help with this mantra.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 14:02:57 (EST)
From: Selena with attitude
Email: None
To: Cheddar with attitude
Subject: Third technique history
Message:
Now if we combine your FUCK YOU with the old version SO HUNG
we have quite the combination, don't we?
Couldn't resist.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 21:18:50 (EST)
From: magic
Email: None
To: Cheddar with attitude
Subject: Third technique history
Message:
Vulgarly cute, Cheddar.
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Date: Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 02:47:45 (EST)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: Cheddar with attitude
Subject: Third technique history
Message:
Thanks for a laugh Cheesey!!! It's insidious that visualization of the master swinging is now the way the practice is taught!!carol
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Date: Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 11:02:30 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Carol
Subject: the swinging third technique
Message:
Carol:

It reminds me of this 60s poster with this guy squatting on a wildly careening swing like a monkey with a sort of crazed look on his face. The title of the poster was: 'This is Man... On His Swing.'

-Scott
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Date: Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 09:35:36 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Third technique history
Message:
Dear JM,
It is the last instruction that I received but the mahatma also said to 'follow' the breath up and down the center of your body. It was hard to imagine how to do for me until he brushed by my and I had my first experience with that racing column of energy, fantastic!
Robyn
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Date: Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 09:30:12 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Third Technique Update!
Message:
Dear Jean-Michel,
I don't know if this will translate but YUCK, CA CA, GAG ME, I can't even comprehend it, it nauseates(sp) me! Any powerful experience I have had with the Word, which I believe is the 3rd technique has been a fast moving column of energy racing UP and DOWN the exact center of my body, not by my spine, what does that have to do with a swing or that big pile of BM on the seat! God, and I thought I wouldn't post much, I just got here!
Robyn
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Date: Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 10:55:29 (EST)
From: JM
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: makes me feel dizzy ....
Message:
really,
I've tried it, makes me feel dizzy! and like vomiting!

No need of the BM in between,
can you imagine this, the fucking fat guy inside of me ?
between me and myself ?

How can people believe in this ?

I can't believe this!
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Date: Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 11:13:56 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: JM
Subject: makes me feel dizzy ....
Message:
Dear JM,
Thinking about it is bad enough I don't think I'll be attempting it ever! The real thing, feeling, meditating on what is inside is so much better. That shit is just stupid! I can't imagine that I would have fallen for the whole thing today, I hope not!
Robyn
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Date: Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 13:19:33 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Outrageous
Message:
Jean-Michel, thanks for that information. I find it very disturbing if true, and perhaps evidence of an additional attempt of BM to give himself some sort of place in 'knowledge.'

Your friend said:

I was told to close my eyes and imagine my master was swinging me on a swing. As he said those words, he showed a side-to-side motion. He said to just relax, don't force anything.

I think it has been mentioned here, that in his little speeches, BM seems to have a difficult time reconciling how he fits into the whole knowledge scenario, and premies seem to have the same problem. He tells people that the experience is within them, and that it's very simple, so, why do you need him?

In the 70s and 80s BM said you couldn't even experience knowledge witout his 'grace' and that the real, supreme, experience he was offering was 'devotion' to the master, anyway, hence he was central to the whole trip.

Now, of course, the 'knowledge lite' he offers, doesn't appear to have such a dramatic 'devotion ' component, just a 'gratitude' trip, which is less of a connection to him. This connection is especially when it was someone else, a mahatma, initiator, or instructor who actually revealed the techniques to the person. So, where is BM in all of this? Very unclear.

So, I think one of the ways he has tried to keep his meal ticket going was to fire all the instructors and start revealing knowledge himself. That way, at least the 'gratitude' thing was in his court. Now, it appears he is taking this farther, by trying to inject himself right into the techniques through some form of 'visualization' of swings (or maybe slings) with the BM pushing your swing, or something equally stupid. If this is true, it is truly outrageous and more evidence of the willingness of this man to do just about anything to keep himself the object of worship for a meditation experience that has zippo to do with him, even if it extends to manipulating and trivializing the supposed ancient meditation techniques.

It also says something about the supposed ancient tradition of the techniques that he can change them willy-nilly to suit his own megalomaniac views of himself.

I wonder if his brother, Sat Pal, has also modified the techniques to suit his own need to be the center of attention.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 13:48:26 (EST)
From: JM
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Satpal's techniques
Message:
I wonder if we'll get the 'other' version of the
4 techniques!
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Date: Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 20:29:04 (EST)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: JW
Message:
JW,
I received the LOTU tape in the mail today. Many thanks; I'm about to watch it. I've been looking forward to this.
Rick
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Date: Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 15:50:35 (EST)
From: John
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Third Technique Update!
Message:
Wouldn't you like to go up in the air
up in the air so blue
Oh I do think it the pleasantest thing
ever a child could do
-Robert Louis Stevenson

I think this new technique is really cool.
I just tried it. It works.
BolieShrisatgurudevmarajkijai!!

But seriously folks, over the years I've tried visualizing all kinds of things - floating on the water, flying with my arms spread out, diving off a cliff, Jessica Lange, Susan Sarandon...uh wait a minute what we were talking about?...oh yeah, and basically they all work, because following the breath has become a comforting thing for me to do.

Now let's see, what are you supposed to visualize about the Master when you do nectar?
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Date: Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 18:51:06 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Canine unmentionables
Message:
Jean-Michel:

Thanks for the update on the swinging new way to practice HN. I think the appropriate term for this concept is 'insinuation.' Imagine this fat middle-aged alcoholic philanderer swinging on a swing, somewhere between you and God... in your way like a pudgy obnoxious Dennis Rodman clone. Now, try to relax. Imagine your life, and your savings account floating gracefully away from you and down the drain. Just relax. Take it easy. Back and forth. In and out. Up and down. Around and around. Don't upchuck. Just relax.

-Scott
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Date: Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 19:46:41 (EST)
From: Iola
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: 3rd Technique
Message:
I can't stop laughing. Your right about the bank account. Some of you folks should be on Saturday Night Live.

What do you think of going to the programs and not buying or supporting it other than the $15 to cover your seat (ass)?
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Date: Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 21:19:07 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Iola
Subject: 3rd Technique
Message:
Iola:

What do you think of going to the programs and not buying or supporting it other than the $15 to cover your seat (ass)?

Maybe once in 25 years, if I could talk about 20 other exes into going with me. It might be fun. I just spent a week in Malibu and had a lovely time. I can honestly say I didn't even think about Maharaji until I stayed with some exes on the last night. And Maharaji was barely incidental to that experience. I had a better time going to watch my friend's kids take karate classes, and going together for an evening walk in the neighborhood. I said something about James Carvel having the attention span of a four-year-old, completely forgetting that there was a four-year-old in the crowd. When she piped up 'I'm four!' I was afraid I had offended her. Just glad I didn't make the same comparison about Maharaji. That would REALLY have been offensive.

-Scott
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Date: Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 02:53:45 (EST)
From: carol
Email: None
To: Iola
Subject: 3rd Technique
Message:
Hi Iola! That's my aunt's name! I'm just trying to catch up on posts and saw your entries. I thought the $15 was optional for reserving a seat. Is that necessary?
carol
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Date: Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 10:10:54 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: carol
Subject: 3rd Technique
Message:
Dear Carol,
Perfect example here of ignoring/answering posts. I've read a few of yours and really enjoyed 'hearing' your soft spoken voice in my mind, having spoken to you recently but thought why say it. I said it because I think you'd enjoy getting a reply and knowing that you and others are in mine, and others, I'm sur, thoughts often.
<3
Robyn
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Date: Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 22:28:52 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: Scott T.
Subject: Canine unmentionables
Message:
Dear Scott,
Good to see that wit again!
Robyn
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Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 22:30:22 (EST)
From: RT
Email: he male
To: Everyone
Subject: Rt sings Dire Striaghts
Message:
This sat-song is dedicated to all the parents of very young children: Just Play Keep Away - From The Programs!

MONEY FROM VISIONS ™ - AND THE CHECK’S FOR SHRI.

I WANT MY.. I WANT MY.. I WANT MY… SANITY
I WANT MY.. I WANT MY.. I WANT MY…FRIENDS TO SEE:

Well, look those Premies, that’s the Way: Guru - it
He plays their heartstrings when they watch TV
Oh, that ain’t working’, that’s the Way: Guru - it.
Money for airplane and your cult is free.

Now, that ain’t working, that’s the Way: Guru - it
Let me tell ya, this guy ain’t dumb
Shri Han’s Knowledge once was freely spoken
Want Rawat videos? Go buy some!

We got to install microphone, brother
Multi-media delivery!
We got to groove these new Meditators
We got to move these Elan Vital Tees.

The little master with his products and that markup
Yes, Krishna, that’s his own fare
The little master’s got his own jet airplane
The little master: Swiss millionaire.

We got to install microphone, brother
Multi-media delivery!
We got to move these new Meditators
We got to film the swaying premies

…We got to film these new Meditators
(We got to edit out those Ex-premies)

He could earn dough if he’d sell just one car
All I learned is to place this thumb.
Look it the stage band, singing to the empty chair
God, do you think they look really dumb!?

Oh who’s that up there? What’s that? - Hear crying noises!
Banging their emotions for the next CD
Oh, that’s ain’t working. That’s just how they Serve-Us
Money from Visions™ - get the checks for He.

We got to install microphone, speakers
Multi-media delivery!
We got to brainwash these Meditators
We got to move these Hindi CD’s

Listen here- That ain’t working - that what he calls Longing:
You quote Saint Kabir and they watch TV.

That ain’t working - that the Way: Guru -it
Money for Airplane and yer Cult’s for Free.

Money from Premies and the Cult’s for Free.
Money for Airplane and the Checks for Free.

I want my…I want my…I want my Sanity.
Money for Airplane and the Cult’s for Free.
Money for Jet fuel and the Cult’s for Free.
I WANT MY…I WANT MY… I WANT MY SANITY
Easy easy Money from Knowledge and the Check’s for Shri.

THIS AIN’T WORKING!
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Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 22:39:07 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: RT
Subject: Rt sings Dire Straights
Message:
Another masterpiece, RT. We really needed some lightening up tonight, too, so thanks.

P.S. Who are you? Are you ever going to reveal your TRUE identity, or are we gonna have to guess?
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Date: Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 03:16:47 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Rt sings Dire Straights
Message:
RT you're a talented person
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Date: Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 09:41:05 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: RT
Subject: Rt sings Dire Striaghts
Message:
Dear RT,
I am telling you you and Larkin should get together. I'll bet he/she would love to have this on his/her site!
Thanks.
Robyn
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Date: Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 11:37:08 (EST)
From: charles
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Rt sings Dire Striaghts
Message:
Yo RT is this part of your act at that restaurant you like so well?
Charles
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Date: Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 16:35:14 (EST)
From: Iola
Email: None
To: RT
Subject: Rt sings Dire Striaghts
Message:
I loved your song, RT. It really does ring true.

I have been joking about a lot of the trips surrounding Visions for years, but I am still hooked.

How have you broken free?
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Date: Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 20:48:46 (EST)
From: Larkin
Email: larkin@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: RT
Subject: Rt sings Dire Striaghts
Message:
Much as I'd like to say: ' RT? - I taught him every thing he knows', I didn't.

Best one yet. keep 'em coming...!

(Even though I hate Dire Straights)
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Date: Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 19:12:29 (EST)
From: Anon
Email: None
To: RT
Subject: Rt sings Dire Striaghts
Message:
Absolutely classic! I have to print this one out immediately and send it to a friend. Excellent.
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