Ex-Premie.Org

Forum III Archive # 11

From: Jun 7, 1998

To: Jun 15, 1998

Page: 5 Of: 5



Jim -:- 2nd letter to EV -:- Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 11:20:46 (EST)
__JW -:- 2nd letter to EV -:- Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 13:15:10 (EST)
____Jim -:- 2nd letter to EV (to JW) -:- Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 14:34:31 (EST)
______JW -:- 2nd letter to EV (to JW) -:- Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 14:58:55 (EST)
________JW -:- And Also -- to Jim -:- Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 15:07:29 (EST)
__________Jim -:- And Also -- to Jim -:- Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 16:18:34 (EST)
____________JW -:- And Also -- to Jim -:- Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 17:25:55 (EST)
______________Jim -:- And Also -- to Jim -:- Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 18:14:14 (EST)
________________JW -:- And Also -- to Jim -:- Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 19:40:25 (EST)
______Judex -:- 2nd letter to EV (to JW) -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 05:57:32 (EST)
________JW -:- 2nd letter to EV (to JW) -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 13:00:58 (EST)
__John -:- 2nd letter to EV -:- Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 14:21:59 (EST)
____Jim -:- 2nd letter to EV (to John) -:- Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 14:39:10 (EST)
______John -:- What questions? -:- Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 15:19:21 (EST)
________Jim -:- My questions for M -:- Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 15:50:30 (EST)
____Rick -:- 2nd letter to EV -:- Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 16:34:26 (EST)
______x -:- 2nd letter to EV -:- Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 17:07:13 (EST)
________Jim -:- Linda's answer -:- Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 20:24:34 (EST)
__________JW -:- Linda's answer -:- Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 20:31:25 (EST)
____________Jim -:- Linda's answer (to JW) -:- Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 22:06:05 (EST)
____Selena -:- 2nd letter to EV -:- Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 20:32:43 (EST)
______Keith -:- speaking out -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 02:50:50 (EST)
________Katie -:- speaking out -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 09:01:58 (EST)
________Selena -:- speaking out -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 15:35:11 (EST)
________JW -:- speaking out -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 16:02:01 (EST)
__________Keith -:- speaking out -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 18:54:04 (EST)
____________JW -:- speaking out -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 19:06:09 (EST)
______________Keith -:- speaking out -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 21:58:00 (EST)
______Judex -:- 2nd letter to EV -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 06:18:39 (EST)
________Jean-Michel -:- go to IRS -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 06:31:49 (EST)
__________Selena -:- go to IRS -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 16:21:18 (EST)

xxx -:- Amaroo's address ? -:- Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 09:06:37 (EST)
__magic -:- Amaroo's address ? -:- Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 21:22:01 (EST)
____Mr Ex -:- We'll try ! -:- Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 23:50:22 (EST)
______Selena -:- closest village -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 00:01:06 (EST)
__Jean-Michel -:- Amaroo's address ? -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 11:35:19 (EST)

Judex -:- To Keith (off topic) -:- Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 07:59:33 (EST)
__Keith -:- To Judex -:- Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 17:43:51 (EST)

RT -:- FUN = RTsings Larkin -:- Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 07:54:24 (EST)
__Judex -:- FUN = RTsings Larkin -:- Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 08:01:43 (EST)
__Katie -:- RT sings -:- Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 08:36:30 (EST)
____bftb -:- To Katie completely off topic -:- Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 17:51:19 (EST)
______Katie -:- To Katie completely off topic -:- Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 18:38:41 (EST)
__Robyn -:- FUN = RTsings Larkin -:- Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 10:11:52 (EST)

Mirabai -:- To Robyn -:- Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 05:48:21 (EST)
__Robyn -:- To Mirabai -:- Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 10:14:08 (EST)

Gerry -:- Forum Rating System -:- Mon, Jun 08, 1998 at 20:30:43 (EST)
__Gerry -:- Forum Rating System:update -:- Mon, Jun 08, 1998 at 21:35:51 (EST)
____Keith -:- Forum Rating System:update -:- Mon, Jun 08, 1998 at 23:47:08 (EST)
______RT time -:- Forum Rating update meditate -:- Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 10:09:54 (EST)
__Robyn -:- Forum Rating System -:- Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 10:19:01 (EST)

x -:- reply to Judex -:- Mon, Jun 08, 1998 at 15:22:18 (EST)
__Katie -:- reply to Judex -:- Mon, Jun 08, 1998 at 19:48:20 (EST)
____Gerry -:- Forum benefits -:- Mon, Jun 08, 1998 at 20:02:36 (EST)
______Selena -:- Forum benefits -:- Mon, Jun 08, 1998 at 20:08:25 (EST)
________Robyn -:- Forum benefits -:- Mon, Jun 08, 1998 at 20:41:15 (EST)
____x -:- forum benefits -:- Mon, Jun 08, 1998 at 22:32:52 (EST)
______Selena -:- forum benefits -:- Mon, Jun 08, 1998 at 22:51:27 (EST)
________Judex -:- forum benefits -:- Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 06:06:34 (EST)
________Stephen Harris -:- forum benefits -:- Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 16:10:24 (EST)
__________eb -:- forum benefits -:- Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 18:46:41 (EST)
____________Stephen Harris -:- forum benefits -:- Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 22:20:44 (EST)
______________Selena -:- forum benefits -:- Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 23:30:20 (EST)
________________Keith -:- forum benefits -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 03:49:42 (EST)
__________________Selena -:- forum benefits -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 15:28:41 (EST)
______________Judex -:- forum benefits -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 07:00:28 (EST)
________________Stephen Harris -:- forum benefits -:- Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 00:22:34 (EST)
____________Judex -:- forum benefits -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 06:50:54 (EST)
____________Katie -:- fear of death -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 10:07:56 (EST)
______________eb -:- fear of death -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 14:19:26 (EST)
________________Katie -:- fear of death -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 14:38:07 (EST)
__________________eb -:- fear of death -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 16:46:58 (EST)
____________________Selena -:- fear of death -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 16:53:48 (EST)
______________________Gerry -:- fear of death -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 17:15:39 (EST)
______________________eb -:- Soliciting Advice/Parenting -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 17:49:23 (EST)
________________________Selena -:- Soliciting Advice/Parenting -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 18:04:08 (EST)
________________________Robyn -:- Soliciting Advice/Parenting -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 20:32:27 (EST)
______Robyn -:- forum benefits -:- Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 10:26:59 (EST)

Keith -:- Challenging science and Jim -:- Mon, Jun 08, 1998 at 14:52:51 (EST)
__Jim -:- Not interested -:- Mon, Jun 08, 1998 at 16:03:58 (EST)
____Keith -:- Not interested -:- Mon, Jun 08, 1998 at 16:23:58 (EST)
____Gerry -:- Not interested -:- Mon, Jun 08, 1998 at 16:52:15 (EST)
__Nigel -:- Grrr....! -:- Mon, Jun 08, 1998 at 17:16:30 (EST)
____Gerry -:- Grrr....! -:- Mon, Jun 08, 1998 at 19:18:44 (EST)
____Katie -:- to Nigel -:- Mon, Jun 08, 1998 at 19:32:30 (EST)
____Judex -:- Nigel -:- Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 06:34:55 (EST)
__Robyn -:- Challenging science and Jim -:- Mon, Jun 08, 1998 at 19:25:01 (EST)
____Gerry -:- Challenging science and Jim -:- Mon, Jun 08, 1998 at 19:46:35 (EST)
______Robyn -:- Challenging science and Jim -:- Mon, Jun 08, 1998 at 20:32:33 (EST)
________Gerry -:- Challenging science and Jim -:- Mon, Jun 08, 1998 at 20:40:36 (EST)
__________Gerry -:- A clarification -:- Mon, Jun 08, 1998 at 20:56:49 (EST)
____________Robyn -:- A clarification -:- Mon, Jun 08, 1998 at 22:06:33 (EST)
______________Selena -:- A clarification -:- Mon, Jun 08, 1998 at 22:31:20 (EST)
________________Gerry -:- Netscape (rated MBB) -:- Mon, Jun 08, 1998 at 22:43:28 (EST)
__________________Selena -:- Netscape (rated MBB) -:- Mon, Jun 08, 1998 at 22:55:35 (EST)
____________________Gerry -:- Netscape (rated MBB) -:- Mon, Jun 08, 1998 at 23:05:15 (EST)
______________________Selena -:- Netscape (rated MBB) -:- Mon, Jun 08, 1998 at 23:11:27 (EST)
______________________Robyn -:- drinking -:- Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 10:57:38 (EST)
________________Robyn -:- Selena -:- Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 10:39:13 (EST)
____________Judex -:- depth of field -:- Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 06:51:27 (EST)
______________Robyn -:- depth of field -:- Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 11:04:00 (EST)
____________carol -:- Butting in here -:- Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 14:46:14 (EST)
______Nigel -:- Challenging science and Jim -:- Mon, Jun 08, 1998 at 20:57:53 (EST)
________Gerry -:- The important thing -:- Mon, Jun 08, 1998 at 21:09:50 (EST)
________Gerry -:- Can we stand more on dowsing? -:- Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 22:26:24 (EST)
__________Robyn -:- Can we stand more on dowsing? -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 09:50:27 (EST)
______Judex -:- Dowsing -:- Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 06:42:53 (EST)
________Robyn -:- Dowsing -:- Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 11:13:29 (EST)
________Selena -:- Dowsing -:- Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 21:58:30 (EST)
____Peter -:- Defending Jim! (?) -:- Mon, Jun 08, 1998 at 23:07:03 (EST)
______Keith -:- Jim and big M. -:- Mon, Jun 08, 1998 at 23:35:45 (EST)
________*<*...b -:- moo -:- Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 00:35:32 (EST)
__________Keith -:- moo and baa -:- Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 02:32:47 (EST)
____________Keith -:- Mysteries...hard core -:- Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 03:15:28 (EST)
______________Robyn -:- Mysteries...hard core -:- Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 11:27:17 (EST)
______________carol -:- Keith:Mysteries...hard core -:- Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 15:23:28 (EST)
__________Dairy man -:- moo -:- Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 09:47:14 (EST)
________Judex -:- Jim and big M. -:- Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 07:07:43 (EST)
________Dairy man -:- Even I'm sceptical -:- Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 10:45:32 (EST)
__________Robyn -:- Even I'm sceptical -:- Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 11:31:54 (EST)
________Robyn -:- Keith -:- Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 11:10:33 (EST)
________bftb -:- Hey Keith-'Sleep Paralysis'? -:- Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 17:08:42 (EST)
__________Peter -:- brain disconnect -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 00:45:50 (EST)
____________Robyn -:- brain disconnect -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 10:11:17 (EST)
__________Robyn -:- Hey Keith-'Sleep Paralysis'? -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 10:03:13 (EST)
____________bftb -:- Hey Keith-'Sleep Paralysis'? -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 13:54:28 (EST)
______________Robyn -:- Hey Keith-'Sleep Paralysis'? -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 15:11:17 (EST)
______Robyn -:- Defending Jim! (?) -:- Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 10:49:32 (EST)
____Keith -:- Challenging science and Jim -:- Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 03:35:03 (EST)
______Robyn -:- Challenging science and Jim -:- Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 13:15:49 (EST)
________Keith -:- Response to Robyn -:- Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 17:05:28 (EST)
__________Keith -:- Response to Robyn-2 -:- Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 17:17:46 (EST)
____________Robyn -:- Response to Robyn-2 -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 10:18:35 (EST)

x -:- answer for Katie -:- Mon, Jun 08, 1998 at 14:47:46 (EST)
__Katie -:- answer for Katie -:- Mon, Jun 08, 1998 at 15:11:02 (EST)

carol -:- Read articles! -:- Mon, Jun 08, 1998 at 12:15:59 (EST)
__Jean-Michel -:- Read articles! offline -:- Mon, Jun 08, 1998 at 17:55:20 (EST)

friend of x -:- The Living Master -:- Sun, Jun 07, 1998 at 17:27:17 (EST)
__Katie -:- The Living Master -:- Mon, Jun 08, 1998 at 09:13:02 (EST)
__Joy -:- The Living Master -:- Mon, Jun 08, 1998 at 12:04:48 (EST)
____JW -:- The Living Master -:- Mon, Jun 08, 1998 at 13:15:21 (EST)
______Joy -:- The Living Master -:- Mon, Jun 08, 1998 at 20:27:01 (EST)
________Robyn -:- Joy-The Living Master -:- Mon, Jun 08, 1998 at 20:44:31 (EST)
________JW -:- The Living Master -:- Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 00:04:34 (EST)
________*<*...b -:- The Living mOnster -:- Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 00:21:02 (EST)
__________JW -:- Slouching Towards Obscurity -:- Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 00:45:38 (EST)
____________Joy -:- Unconscious -:- Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 01:04:26 (EST)
______________JW -:- Unconscious -:- Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 12:39:27 (EST)
____________*<*...b -:- Slouching Towards Obscurity -:- Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 01:12:55 (EST)
____________Judex -:- Forgiveness -:- Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 07:23:46 (EST)
____________Judex -:- The Second Coming -:- Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 07:31:58 (EST)
______________Katie -:- Slouching towards Bethlehem -:- Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 08:27:12 (EST)
________________JW -:- Slouching towards Bethlehem -:- Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 12:52:49 (EST)
__________________Katie -:- Slouching towards Bethlehem -:- Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 13:59:29 (EST)
____________________Selena -:- Slouching towards Bethlehem -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 00:18:00 (EST)
______________________Katie -:- Slouching towards Bethlehem -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 09:11:40 (EST)
________________________JW -:- The Book of Common Prayer -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 12:47:32 (EST)
____Robyn -:- The Living Master -:- Mon, Jun 08, 1998 at 18:04:42 (EST)
______Judex -:- Footwear -:- Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 07:52:13 (EST)
________Robyn -:- Footwear -:- Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 13:19:41 (EST)

Friend of a Premie -:- Serious question: what harm? -:- Sun, Jun 07, 1998 at 16:29:57 (EST)
__x -:- Serious question: what harm? -:- Sun, Jun 07, 1998 at 17:13:43 (EST)
__Selena -:- Serious question: what harm? -:- Sun, Jun 07, 1998 at 20:38:48 (EST)

x -:- Anaheim -:- Sun, Jun 07, 1998 at 14:26:27 (EST)
__Selena -:- Anaheim -:- Sun, Jun 07, 1998 at 14:40:29 (EST)
__Cheddar -:- Anaheim -:- Sun, Jun 07, 1998 at 21:21:17 (EST)
__JW -:- Read what? -:- Mon, Jun 08, 1998 at 13:19:17 (EST)
____bftb -:- Read what? -:- Mon, Jun 08, 1998 at 14:14:10 (EST)
____x -:- Read what? -:- Mon, Jun 08, 1998 at 14:28:22 (EST)
______JW -:- Read what? -:- Mon, Jun 08, 1998 at 14:33:40 (EST)
________x -:- Read what? -:- Mon, Jun 08, 1998 at 14:58:52 (EST)


Date: Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 11:20:46 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: 2nd letter to EV
Message:
[I sent this this morning]

'June 9, 1998

Elan Vital (By fax to 310 - 829 - 6316)
c/o Linda Gross
Attorney at Law
2730 Wilshire Blvd.
Suite 220
Santa Monica, CA. 90403

Att: Linda Gross, President

Dear Linda:

Re: Maharaji

Thanks for your phone message the other day acknowledging receipt of my June 3rd letter (about asking Maharaji some questions at the Seattle program) and notifying me that, in fact, the program’s been canceled. That’s too bad, Lord knows I need a vacation.

Anyway, Linda, as you can well imagine, news of the program’s cancellation has triggered all sorts of speculation on the web site. Did Maharaji actually cancel just because he didn’t want to deal with a bunch of pesky former devotees? Is that the reason? Personally, I think that’s a little far-fetched. After all, all he has to do is let us know that no, he will not entertain any questions from ex-premies and that would be that. Right?

So, I guess at this point I’m asking if I could ask Maharaji some questions at any program? You know, like I said, there are guys like Bruce who say Maharaji’s always open to such exchanges and, if that’s the case, I’d like to take him up on it. Hey, I bet I’m not the only one.

Thanks very much for looking into this for me.

Sincerely

James I. Heller
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 13:15:10 (EST)
From: JW
Email: joger02@aol.com
To: Jim
Subject: 2nd letter to EV
Message:
Jim, what do you think about other exs writing similar letters to Linda? Has she told you to whom she forwards you letters? I'm certain she has no direct access to BM, so she much forward these things to someone else. Has she said?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 14:34:31 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: 2nd letter to EV (to JW)
Message:
Joe,

I'm not sure if it would be wise for others to jump in right now. At this point, Linda knows me a bit as we've spoken at length a number of times. Not just about Maharaji but other things as well (e.g. the law, or Santa Monica where she is and where I once lived). I like her, quite frankly, and I think she likes me as well. Thus, everything's 'on the up and up' as far as I can tell. I think my letter asks the simple question easily enough -- will he talk if we go to him?

So, no, my opinion is that it would be best to see just what kind of answer I get before anyone else following suit. Who knows? Maybe I won't get any answer this time. But, for now, I think it'd be best to wait a bit.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 14:58:55 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: 2nd letter to EV (to JW)
Message:
Jim,

I've heard you say before how much you like Linda and it's nice that she likes you too. I remember Linda from years ago as part of the legal staff of DLM. There are some things............

Anyhow, I'm sure Linda sees it as part of her job to be the smiley 'public relations' face of EV and BM. That isn't to say she isn't a nice person with real interests outside of being the president of EV, but just because she likes you doesn't mean that your letters aren't going into the trash either, put there by Linda or the person she forwards them to, or by BM himself.

I think, frankly, that hell will freeze over before you get any 'answer.' I don't think BM is about to change his paranoid relations with people, notwithstanding how nice his PR people might be.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 15:07:29 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: And Also -- to Jim
Message:
I've been wanting to say you also Jim, that if she's the same Linda Gross I knew when I was a premie, and if it's true that she's been telling you that she wasn't around during the super-devotional-cult-period of Guru Maharaj Ji and therefore just doesn't know about that stuff, that it's news to her etc, that such a statement by her is a very large pile of crap.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 16:18:34 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: And Also -- to Jim
Message:
Hey Joe,

This is critical. When exactly do you remember Linda from? What did she look like? Where were you? How well did you know her? Do you remember where she's from?

If we ARE talking about the same person (probably), I wonder if there's an overlap period that would allow for her to be telling the truth. Like, maybe she got sucked in in '81, let's say. You didn't leave for a couple of years after that. Is it possible that that's when you knew her from?

Let me know because you know I'll take it up with her.

Anyhow, I'm sure Linda sees it as part of her job to be the smiley 'public relations' face of EV and BM. That isn't to say she isn't a nice person with real interests outside of being the president of EV, but just because she likes you doesn't mean that your letters aren't going into the trash either, put there by Linda or the person she forwards them to, or by BM himself.

I think, frankly, that hell will freeze over before you get any 'answer.' I don't think BM is about to change his paranoid relations with people, notwithstanding how nice his PR people might be.


God, Joe, I'd never really thought of that before! Holy cow! You mean you think Linda sees herself in some sort of PR role for Maharaji just because she's president of EV? Man, that's incredible!

No, seriously, I know that. But, really, what difference does it make? None, as I see it. As for her trashing my letters, well, I'll tell you, I honestly WOULD be surprised if that were the case. That's just on a simple, human level. Yes, if that were true, I'd be surprised. Linda, why hast thou forsaken me?

Anyway, anyway. So, let's say Linda tells me that she's sent the letters on, and now can relay M's response: 'no'. Well, that's that, isn't it? At least we won't have to put up with the Bruce's of the world challenging us so. Hey, maybe I'll send him a bill for my time. Well, I don't know his last name, do I? I know, I'll send YOU a bill! Joe Whalen, care of some big law firm in San Francisco. Better budget accordingly. :)
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 17:25:55 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: And Also -- to Jim
Message:
Jim, you asked, so I'll tell you what I know.

The Linda Gross I recall was a lawyer, so I'm 99% certain it is the same person. You asked:

When exactly do you remember Linda from? What did she look like? Where were you? How well did you know her? Do you remember where she's from?

In 1979, I got sent to Miami from DC where I was Community Coordinator to be in the legal department of the Boeing 707 plane project (DECA), at the request of Jim Hession (thanks for nothing, Jim!). Jim had come to DC and I helped him arrange for BM to fly into the country, to Dulles Airport, from someplace overseas. Jim said he was impressed. I was not a lawyer, but I had worked as a paralegal for a big Chicago law firm for a few years when I lived in the ashram there. There weren't many premies with legal experience, so I guess they were desperate. Jim got Dennis Marciniak to transfer me to Miami. I didn't want to go because I was having a great time in DC and had been at IHQ in Miami prior to going to DC and I had really hated it. But, being in the ashram, I did what I was told. David Horsford was my replacement in DC.

Anyway, at DECA, I spent a lot of time in the U of Miami law library trying to figure out aviation law, and the kinds of licenses the plane would need. I also had the job of getting the appropriate licenses for DECA to operate in Florida. DECA was a horrible mess, terribly disorganized and inefficient, but that was true of most things in BM's cult. It was very frustrating to work there, because no one seemed to know what they were doing or what was going on. It was nearly impossible to get anything done, partly because BM was micro-managing the thing and changed his mind about things on a whim all the time. Plus, at the same time, premies were being brought in in droves to work on the project. We lived in old decrepit hotels on Miami Beach and DECA was in this warehouse complex near the airport in Hialeah.

Anyhow, at that time, 1979, Linda was a lawyer in OGM, the Office of Guru Maharaj Ji. This was an organization distinct from DLM, which had it's own legal staff. It handled BM's personal affairs and was part of the strategy to separate BM from DLM, because so much illegal money had gone from DLM for his personal use. The IRS was in hot pursuit, and BM needed some distance.

I recall having a couple of meetings with Linda Gross and some others in which she was taking care of getting the corporate red-tape taken care of, like minutes, etc. of the various shell corporations that owned the plane. If I recall she was from Southern California, but I can't be sure. I recall her as a nice person but a true 'devotee' and this was, of course, during the most 'devotional' of times in DLM. Lots of Krishna outfits, dancing, darshan, Holi festivals and demands for total surrender. BM was still in his latent 'I am god' period. Ms. Gross was definitely around for all of that. I didn't know Linda well, but I liked her and we spoke occasionally when I saw her. I'm sure she would remember me.

I hate to describe what she looked like. I recall her as short, maybe a little chubby, and, dare I say, she looked Jewish. She wore thick, wireless glasses that made he look like a frumpish librarian. Sorry, Linda.

Then, something happened to Linda. I think she may have had a nervous breakdown or something. I recall in 1980, she got sent to an ashram on the west coast, I think San Diego or LA, and BM said she wasn't to work as a lawyer. I don't know the details, but it was kind of a big deal to be sent AWAY from OGM. I just recall speaking with her in the lobby of the Surfside Hotel where I was living (I was community coordinator in Miami by then), and she was very upset. She was there for some festival or other. She had asked BM if she could work as a paralegal and he had apparently said no. I guess she was working as a legal secretary. The scuttlebut was that BM was teaching her to be detached from her identity as a lawyer. I talked to her for awhile and felt sorry for her, as I thought she was a nice person, and I was sorry to see her so freaked out.

In September, 1980, I got sent to San Francisco, and I don't know if I ever talked to her again. I probably did at some program, but I don't specifically recall.

I think the point I was trying to make about Linda and EV is that she is likely and extremely remote, peripheral player in the BM world. EV is nothing but a shell these days, and I doubt Linda has much to do. According to the California secretary of state, EV isn't even listed as a charitable non-profit anymore, basically it's just inactive. I doubt Linda even knows much more than any other premie what is going on with BM. So, sure, she may pass your letter on, but that's like the receptionist at the outer desk agreeing to do that.

By the way, if you talk to Linda, ask her if she knows were Linda Smith is. She was also a lawyer in OGM, married Albert Keegan who is a great guy and a premie a lot of people know, and they both split from BM in about 1986. Linda is the person who told me the details about BM's drinking problem and his adulteries. Linda is an old friend of mine, and I would love to talk to her for a number of reasons.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 18:14:14 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: And Also -- to Jim
Message:
Joe,

Thanks for all that. Well yes, it sounds as if we're definitely talking about the same LG (although I've never seen her and dont rely on that part of your identification).

So what to do? There are a couple of issues here. One is Linda's efficacy as a conduit to Maharaji. The other is her integrity altogther.

I completely share your take on the dessicated nature of EV. Still, and this is what matters, I think, it IS the one and only organization representative of Maharaji. Until he shuts it down entirely and operates solely out of his Malibu garage, that counts for a lot. It just has to.

Can Linda get messges to Maharaji? Yes, I'm sure of it. Does he give a shit what she says or thinks about anything? Of course not. Does that matter? No, not really. She's still his official spokesperson in terms of organizational anything.

What's critical is that no one question the extent to which he's prepared to stonewall the world. His moat's up and, instead of coming out and talking outide the castle walls, he's doing nothing. Soon, maybe, he'll toss over cabbages. So, let him. Let the Bruce's of the world see what they should already know. You know how one of Maharaji's major problems is his vagueness? Vague history, vague philosophy, vague finances, vague everything? Well, in a way, all we're doing is helping him define himself.

Hey, maybe I should send HIM a bill.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 19:40:25 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: And Also -- to Jim
Message:
Jim,

You are welcome for the comments, for whatever they are worth. My law firm can send your law firm a bill.

I suppose there is something to gain by just being able to say that you went through the 'official channels' when you speak to people like Bruce or anyone else. Be sure to keep copies of your letters. Other than that, however, I guess I disagree, in that I don't think EV means much of anything when it comes to BM. He likely sees it as a necessary evil. And, really, Jim I also disagree that Linda is BM's official spokesperson. She's only the official spokesperson of EV, that's it. I'm sure BM continues his paranoid practice of keeping people like Linda Gross blissfully uninformed. I mean, she doesn't have much meaningful to say to you, now does she?

Regarding Linda's integrity, I'm sure she has integrity. It's just that she's in a cult. We know the kind of self-deception and selective amnesia that can happen there. I don't know what Linda told you, so I can't say if she is bullshitting you or not. In any event, I bet she doesn't believe she is.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 05:57:32 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: 2nd letter to EV (to JW)
Message:
Isn't there some way someone could look into how Maharaji and Elan Vital receive their funding? Isn't it false pretences to accept money under the banner for example of having a specific lineage, which is now virtually disproved?
Has there ever been a similar case in the US?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 13:00:58 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Judex
Subject: 2nd letter to EV (to JW)
Message:
Judex,

You said:

Isn't there some way someone could look into how Maharaji and Elan Vital receive their funding?

I suppose if you had the time and resources, a lot of this could be discovered, but I think it would be difficult. There are layers of 'moat' around BM. As noted in this thread, even the President of EV doesn't know what's going on. This is typical Maharaji. Paranoid control and secrecy are the name of the game. I think it would take someone from the inside to shed light on this. But even then, I doubt anyone but BM's closest administrators would be aware of anything more that a small part of the story.

Isn't it false pretences to accept money under the banner for example of having a specific lineage, which is now virtually disproved?

Sure it is, but this is a religion. Lots of obscure mumbo jumbo that is almost impossible to prove one way or the other because it happened a long time ago. Even if you could 'prove' some lineage, or lack thereof, people can still believe something else, just based on 'faith.' Note that most Christian religious groups claim some kind of direct 'lineage' to Jesus Christ, but in most cases historical facts show otherwise. That doesn't stop them and it wouldn't stop BM either. Premies just say the have a direct 'experience' and that's all the proof they need. I do agree, however, that such information that anon discovered, if true, would discredit BM, but he's already been pretty discredited so I'm not sure how much additional damage that would do. Personally, I can say that as a premie, the 'lineage' stuff was never very significant to me. I never understood it much anyway, and accepted the adage that 'by his fruits (not by his lineage) you will know him.'

Has there ever been a similar case in the US?

There have been cases in US courts fighting over the control of a religious organization, but I doubt that claims could survive on the basis of 'misrepresentation.' Again, this is religion, and the US courts at least, try their darndest to stay out of that.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 14:21:59 (EST)
From: John
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: 2nd letter to EV
Message:
Jim:

You know what I find amazing, is that you claim to be willing to actually go to a program and try to ask the ex Lord of the Universe questions!!!

Just curious, any ex's reading this, any others of you willing to do that?

I know I sure as hell wouldn't.

My bet is he would never in a million years allow anyone to come and ask questions at one of these one night stand programs.

The thing is the river of satsang does not allow for doubts, or questions, or confusion. When he goes to speak, he goes to immerse himself and his premies into that river of satsang.

Don't you remember trying to give satsang to new people and some joker would just not understand the format (which for new people is just sit there and shut up), and he would keep interupting and asking questions? It would ruin the whole experience, right? The flow would never get started.

What kind of fragile experience is it anyway that can't handle a few questions?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 14:39:10 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: John
Subject: 2nd letter to EV (to John)
Message:
Yes, I know what you mean. There are two ways of approaching this, as I see it. One is with premie-schooled expectations and the other is as a regular person. As an experienced premie, I'm with you all the way -- the idea of trying to ask Maharaji questions is outrageous for all the reasons you mention. But, as a human being, an interested, mature adult, one who invested an awful lot of his life, time, hopes, energy and money into following this other human being,(also, supposedly, an interested, mature adult), it's completely reasonable to ask. So I've written to Linda as a human being, not a premie.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 15:19:21 (EST)
From: John
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: What questions?
Message:
Jim: you say about M, 'also, supposedly, an interested, mature adult'

interested? you said interested??? interested in what? interested in us? c'mon!! He had no interest in us. One way communication is what he's about. He speaks, we sit far below him listening reverently.

I really believe that all he knows is that he is here for us to worship, period. He is not here to interact with us as normal human beings. He learned his Dad's business well.

I think the fact that you're pursuing this is great.

So, I've been away. Have you already posted somewhere the questions you want to ask him?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 15:50:30 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: John
Subject: My questions for M
Message:
Thanks for asking. My questions for Maharaji, should I ever get together with him, are as follows:

1) How many fingers do I have up?

2) Are you really Bill Burke?

3) How's it going, eh?

I think that pretty well covers it. Don't you? I'm surprised he doesn't want to deal with this shit once and for all.

John, when I say Maharaji's 'interested' I mean it in the loosest sense. I assume he's kinda interested, like if one of the palace guards told him the infidels were starting to gather outside the city walls, he might look up from his venison and say, 'hmm'.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 16:34:26 (EST)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: John
Subject: 2nd letter to EV
Message:
John,
No, I wouldn't be willing to go to a program and confront BM. I don't think I'd be effective at doing it, even if the opportunity was there. I agree that BM will take all precautions to ensure he isn't in a position to be questioned by critics. I remember him once commenting at a program that the religious protesters outside the hall should rent their own venue, if they wanted to promote a message. I don't really begrudge BM for avoiding critics; it's his job is to be a fraud. If he gets brought down it'll be completely against his will.
Rick
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 17:07:13 (EST)
From: x
Email: None
To: everybody
Subject: 2nd letter to EV
Message:
I think the odds of BM seriously entertaining discussions of his possible errors or ommisions, are as likely as OJ seriously discussing the possibility that he killed Nicole. BM is a mentally disturbed individual, a control freak with no equal. Like OJ he will deny any and all accusations till he dies. Like a sociopath he has no feelings of anything, including guilt. I'm sure he considers all devotees to be gullible idiots who desrve to be fleeced like the sheep they are. Secretly he actually respects the people on this site, although he wishes we would all disappear, since we are now a threat. As ex's we are on his level now, no longer submitting to his every whim. BM cannot deal with equals, he must have the upper hand at all times, with all situations. Like the little 3 year old he really is emotionally. He should take some of his own advice regarding humility and open heartednes. Maybe it would help him with his ulcers and his alchohol problem.

thanks for listening x
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 20:24:34 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: x
Subject: Linda's answer
Message:
[Linda Gross just faxed me her reply]

Dear Jim:

In response to your letter of even date, I do not know why the Seattle event was cancelled, although it was but one of several cancelled events. Other events were rescheduled.

I am not aware of any question-and-answer format for programs sponsored by Elan Vital. Perhaps this happened in the past, but the format has not been used in recent years.

Very truly Yours,

Linda S. Gross'

[So I called her office. She was on the phone and I left a message. If I speak to her I'll ask her a) if she'd consider asking Maharaji specifically about this and not just relying on her knowledge of what's customary these days; b) what would happen to me if I were to attend a program and speak up without 'permission'; and c) why she doesn't know why those events were cancelled.]
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 20:31:25 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Linda's answer
Message:
Jim, what did I tell you?

She is the 'President' of EV and doesn't even know WHY events of her own organization, of which she is president, president!!!, were cancelled, and she doesn't know if question and answer sessions were ever used in the programs of her own organization, of which she is PRESIDENT. Yes, she is blissfully uninformed, all right!

I predict that her answers to your additional questions will be, 'I don't know if I can or not', 'I don't know', and 'because nobody told me and I didn't ask, because no one will tell me anyway.' And then, 'Very Truly yours, Linda Gross, PRESIDENT.'
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 22:06:05 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Linda's answer (to JW)
Message:
Awoke from a nap, read your post, laughing heartily..
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 20:32:43 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: John
Subject: 2nd letter to EV
Message:
Call me a cowardly lion but I'd be scared shitless to stand up and ask questions to the great and powerful OZ.
Not scared of him but I'd be scared of the crowd.
They would construe even the act of asking as a disrespectful act.
They would at the very least send some absolutely horrible vibes my way. And, I am not sure but I think I have been placed in the new age category of someone who feels vibes. Well I hate that category but I do feel things like that intensely.
I would be concerned physically also. What makes anyone think these people aren't capable of violence?
And worst of all they wouldn't like me anymore!! (now that part is a joke, really)
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 02:50:50 (EST)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: Selena and everyone
Subject: speaking out
Message:
Selena, it is really scary to speak out in a group situation when it is against the rules and you know that most around you are antagonistic to your position.
About 5 or 6 weeks ago I attended a special EV participation meeting which ran for about 6 hours.
There were special guest speakers including an instructor.
A woman sitting at the back of the packed theaterette spoke out some hour and a half into proceedings....uninvited and in the midst of a talk being given by one of the guest speakers....who tried to stop her by saying , 'perhaps we could talk about this later'.
But the interjector wouldn't stop. She had gripes and she was going to have her say.
Later on when the instructor began to speak she started up again.
When she had finished I clapped loudly. Then a guy began to speak. Then mirabai had her say. Then I did.
The energy in the room was electric.
This led onto me speaking for over two hours privately with the instructor who btw sounded a lot like doc.
Anyway, my point is that if it was so scary there how would it be in a hall with thousands present and Maharaji sitting onstage.
Well, I guess it we might have been removed.

Premies are so mute that it makes me want to scream.
Of course they are not mute when they post here....but woe behold if they really speak out in EV land.
I find the atmosphere at EV gatherings quite stiffling and boring. It is only the Maharaji show.
It is not about people power.
Power to the people!!!!
Keith
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 09:01:58 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: speaking out
Message:
Dear Keith
Good for you for clapping for the woman who spoke up (or should I say 'good on you'?? I'm not sure if it means the same thing. Anyway - bravo!) I am sure that changed the whole atmosphere of the room. I remember incidents like that happening in satsang, and after the person finished talking and was somehow mollified, everyone acted like nothing ever happened. It sounded like that woman's effort to speak out PLUS (very important) your support of her really helped open up the meeting. Wonder what would happen if all the premies who had questions felt that it was OK to ask them?

Regards,
Katie
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 15:35:11 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: speaking out
Message:
Amazing. It must be worse than our staff meetings. Yes stifling and boring is a good description. Even the great events are that way to me. I was so bored last time and then a month later the $700 credit card bill arrived. Nice. Why don't I just put in all in slot machines next time?
Good for you and Mirabai for speaking up. What is wrong with those people and how on earth do they function in the real world in between those meetings? Trust funds? I mean, it's tough out here and being that passive is an invitation to be trampled.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 16:02:01 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: speaking out
Message:
So, Keith, good for you.

What was being discussed at this 'participation meeting?' What was the topic and what were these people, including the instructor, talking about? Was it fundraising?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 18:54:04 (EST)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: speaking out
Message:
Hi JW,
Well, I guess the meeting was about participation.
Preparing for Maharaji's next visit.
How the premies can work together more effectively and with synchronization.
There was no strong emphasis on money...except the mention by someone that donations were a type of service.
One of the speakers was the architect of Amaroo.
Another was the president of EV here in Australia....and the instructor was Australian too.
A couple of recent videos were shown that I found very ordinary.
I missed about two hours because of the talk with the instructor. I missed the Amaroo slide show.
Keith
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 19:06:09 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: speaking out
Message:
Thanks, Keith.

Were all premies invited to this 'participation meeting?'
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 21:58:00 (EST)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: speaking out
Message:
JW, as far as I know all premies were invited.
Keith
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 06:18:39 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: Selena
Subject: 2nd letter to EV
Message:
I would be concerned physically also. What makes anyone think these people aren't capable of violence?

I agree, if M is above 'revenge' etc, premies may not be. If you were hanging out to get your fix and he cancelled, and it was blamed on the likes of us, there might be someone pissed off enough to try and get revenge.
Many premies in my area recently went to an overseas program, the airfare of which cost $1000 - and said it was 'the cheapest darshan this year!'

(their exclamation marks, not mine).

It seems to me the more we 'threaten' here to disrupt programs etc, the more M can 'blame' us if he decides to cancel programs or back down from his public role more. He could use us as a pawn in his game.

I say go to the IRS or press and get him publically discredited.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 06:31:49 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Judex
Subject: go to IRS
Message:
I would say that going to IRS, if you konw enough of EV's
fraudulent stuff would be VERY efficient.

Many ex-premies know a lot of stuff.
Who wants to testify?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 16:21:18 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: go to IRS
Message:
There was a thread back in January about getting enuf info on M's finances to do something like this. I was new so it kind of blurred for me. It died out, I think because the trail ended in protected Swiss bank accounts.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 09:06:37 (EST)
From: xxx
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Amaroo's address ?
Message:
Anybody having Ivory's Rock Conference Center's address ?

I've read it's located somewhere 60 Km west of Brisbane.

A friend of mine living in the vicinity would like to
go check there.

Thanks

xxx
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 21:22:01 (EST)
From: magic
Email: None
To: xxx
Subject: Amaroo's address ?
Message:
May I suggest contacting:

Elan Vital Inc / International Conferences
PO Box 181
Ipswich, Queensland 4305, Australia
Fax +61-7-5467 2394

magic
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 23:50:22 (EST)
From: Mr Ex
Email: None
To: magic
Subject: We'll try !
Message:
Ok, thanks a lot, but I imagine they won't answer the question .... they also have security down there.

Anybody has an idea of the name of the closest village or town?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 00:01:06 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: Mr Ex
Subject: closest village
Message:
No I don't. But I did find it once. On the net when I was researching how much it would cost and which organ I would have to sell to see my lord in his new playground.
If you do a search on the net, sooner or later you'll see it; an Australian travel site and there's maps and they show the closest village. Although I am not sure that means they'd be friendly and welcoming to M inquiries. I certainly wouldn't be if I had been invaded by this crap in my little corner of paradise.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 11:35:19 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: xxx
Subject: Amaroo's address ?
Message:
I just did a simple research on ‘Yahoo’ over Ivory’s rock conference center

They have an email : IRCC@compuserve.com

And a lot of interesting stuff :

1/ Wonderful satsang about buddha’s enlightment, sacred places etc ...

(I was awakened here at Ivory's Rock this morning .................. This is a precious thing I've heard nowhere else on earth. ............... We have many urban problems in our country - whether alcoholism, abuse, drugs, homelessness, or mental illness. None of these things are separate. They are all symptoms of a disease of the spirit. They all arise from lack of self-esteem, mutual respect, or lack of being of value to the community and the world around us. All these things - alcohol, hallucinogenic drugs, or people less powerful than us - have always existed in every culture. But there hasn't been that overpowering weakness and inability we have to free ourselves from their attraction...................... What we are really talking about here is the mind versus the heart. The mind is like an engine in a car - a wonderfully powerful thing. But without a steering wheel, and without a road map of where we want to go, all it does is careen all over the place causing destruction. We have a good engine, but there's still the rest of this vehicle we need to create to reach a good future..................... So working through energy, technology, economics, and other issues, it has finally reached the point where we can build in ways which are right on the material level. Now we can begin to really deal with where this emptiness comes form. We held a series of 'Spirit of Place' conferences in the States over the last five or six years. In them, we discovered that in almost every culture and individual, some place or something is held sacred.

It turns out that there is almost no universality in the places themselves which causes that veneration. With some of them, perhaps in the case of Ivory's Rock here, there are geomagnetic fields in the earth which create a specialness. Sometimes there is a historical importance - a place where the Buddha reached enlightenment - in the reasons why people hold places sacred. But it seems the essential element is that the process of holding something sacred is what creates the sacredness itself. It comes from us. It is the process of loving something deeply enough that we keep it from destruction and ensure its wellness. It is a lesson we learn early in relationships with other people - that we can't be happy ourselves if the people that we are closest to are unwell or unhappy.................... We need that 'safe space' before we can speak from the heart, be vulnerable, and say, 'I don't know the answer. Here is what I feel. How do you feel?'

When our hearts truly touch, we can hear somebody else's truth, which is what you get when they speak from the heart, and which comes out of a totally different life and a different experience than our own. We can take that truth and add it to our own and create something greater. And they can do the same with ours. And we can put those truths together and find an even greater one.

If you want more of it, at Ivory’s Rock Conference Center ....

BS Satsang

2/ A nice picture of Ivory’s Rock conference center’s hall .....

Picture

3/ If we decide to rent the Ivory’s Rock Conference Center for our next annual meeting :

Rent

or

Rent too

4/ Join the happy ‘Australian Society for Limnology ‘ for their next congress at Amaroo :

Limnology

If you need a map to get there by road to the site (might be sufficient for
helicopter also) :

Map

5/ Nice picture of Mount Flinders Peak (Ivory’s Rock)

The Rock

BTW : why not email all those people they’re renting a cult owned piece of land ?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 07:59:33 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: To Keith (off topic)
Message:
Dear Keith,
I see your back, it's been ears and ears since I saw you...

ok I think I have a BIG retraction to make about the swami we discussed earlier. Wot I didn't know is that 'name' is a kind of endearment...hell, I am not into Hinduism!

Apparently that one who I mentioned's real name was Akunanand..something like that, and last heard he moved to Queensland.

He never would have drunk any alcohol, apparently, for a start.

He had been to jail.

BTW it makes you realise, though, how easy it would be for someone to keep changing their title and go around under 'assumed' names. I suppose anyone can do that, like a business name; there should be a Spiritual Reference Association where you can look em up!

I learned not to jump to conclusions, out of that (I thought I already knew that - guess I am always at the beginning...heh)
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 17:43:51 (EST)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: Judex
Subject: To Judex
Message:
Dear Judex,
Welcome back .
As far as Swamiji goes....well I didn't think it was the same person we were talking about....and indeed don't we all jump to hasty conclusions sometimes even though we try not to?

I would also like to add my voice to those who feel that your contribution to the forum is valuable and I always read your posts.
We are all special in one way or another.
I know we don't always feel that but that to me is a type of spiritual blindness that we humans suffer from.
I understand the feeling that you've overdosed on all that mystical stuff.
It's the down side of mysticism becoming a part of popular culture (drugs have had a lot to do with that) that mysticism has become commercialised and marketable.
But on the other hand it is this markability that has helped to spread it through society ....to make it so accessable to everyone. Even though every Joe Smoe (sorry JW...NOTHING PERSONAL INTENDED) and his dog (and every Sue Blue....can't be sexist ) or her dog , can now set up shop and offer new age rubbish. But it's not all rubbish! I guess it's like everything else ....when it becomes commercialised ..watch out!!
If there's money involved....be cautious!
Sorry , I've got off track here a bit( as usual) .
What I wanted to say to you is something like ; You are special. You are you. And you are sharing you . And that's special too.
And it is not what a person experiences that makes a person special.
No way Hose! It is inside ....who you are....but don't compare yourself with others or with an image of how you would like to be ; learn to love yourself just as you are ...warts and all....as a friend of mine used to say.
We all have 'warts'...but what the hell...we are here to appreciate simple joys of life ....even in the midst of unpaid bills , people who trigger our defense mechanisms and neighbours barking dogs. Not to mention ones own internal demons .

Despite all the 'nasties' inside and out, we are here , we can share, we can laugh and cry, we can grow and learn.
So I hope I've not bored you silly.
Warm regards to you,
Keith
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 07:54:24 (EST)
From: RT
Email: nah
To: Everyone
Subject: FUN = RTsings Larkin
Message:
RT has read Saint Larkin

Larkin the Rhymer-
Split Infinity Timer

Sing his British web pages-
He's 'lectronic Sage, 'is.

Ex-Premie http
is better than chai tea.

With Larkin in UK
The Internet's OK!
* * * * * *
RT and Larkin-the premies are barkin'
About the web pages, that stands up to ages

With wit and fun wisdom from formerly kingdom
Of heaven devotees who threw out their doties

and candles and travel - we saw it unravel,
the bhakti devotion -it's mostly emotion,

transferred to Speaker. That's what you pay fer.
The Knowledge works great with no Master ache

Ex-Premie Peace! Please, laugh and release!
thank the happy web Sages of these EX-RATED pages!

RT says this: Sat Guru is pissed! : (
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 08:01:43 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: RT
Subject: FUN = RTsings Larkin
Message:
You are a TREAT!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 08:36:30 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: RT
Subject: RT sings
Message:
Thanks, RT. It was all very funny, but I loved the last line - very sharp and to the point. I hope you're saving your work for posterity!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 17:51:19 (EST)
From: bftb
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: To Katie completely off topic
Message:
Hey Katie, How's Bobby doing?Thanks.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 18:38:41 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: bftb
Subject: To Katie completely off topic
Message:
Hi bftb -
I haven't heard anything since the last group e-mail he sent around, which I posted on the forum. He was about to start going for chemo, so he's probably not feeling so hot. I will keep everyone on the forum posted when I hear more from him. I'll let him know you asked about him - you might want to send him an e-mail yourself (bobby2@mindspring.com). I think he has enjoyed hearing from the people on the forum.

Take care,
Katie
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 10:11:52 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: RT
Subject: FUN = RTsings Larkin
Message:
Dear RT,
Thanks, you and Larkin could collaborate!
Robyn
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 05:48:21 (EST)
From: Mirabai
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: To Robyn
Message:
Dear Robyn,
thanks for your post down below in the mysteries thread. You said 'I hope you didn't think I was being harsh when I joked about your writing my name wrong as a payback. My birthday is 6/2/55, I am now 43. I was just playing. I was not happy to hear about your intense childhood but it makes me feel we share something there and that we have both put a lot into opening ourselves to our deep feelings. 'I didn't think you were being harsh at all,It was an irony that had not passed me by!

We do seem to have some things in common. I've enjoyed reading some of yours and Keiths posts and a few others as well. There certainly are some things of interest to me going on in the forum at the moment.I'm not feeling to get too involved in posting right now. I look forwad to sharing with you at a another time.

By the way I appreciate your little outbursts of swearing, I've had a few of those episodes myself at times!It can help heal our souls to get 'stuff' out of our systems

best wishes Mirabai
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 10:14:08 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: Mirabai
Subject: To Mirabai
Message:
Dear Mirabai,
Thank you dear, I'm sure we'll met up here again!
Robyn
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 08, 1998 at 20:30:43 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: glyng@techline.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Forum Rating System
Message:
I was thinking, maybe we could institute a cautionary rating system for the Forum postings like they do for movies. That way interested or disinterested people could pick and choose which ones they would like to read, without having to become too jerked-off one way or the other. I have a few suggestions to start the ball rolling. Of course, this being the egalitarian society it is, we would have to vote on them for the final compilation.

How about:

CCM--could contain mysticism

PNA--possible new age

MBB--might be bogus

HHS--hard headed science

FAO--for atheists only

JAM--just about maharaji

You get the idea. I'm sure you guys can come up with some real beauties.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 08, 1998 at 21:35:51 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Forum Rating System:update
Message:
Wait, wait, I want to change that last one.

From: JAM-- just about maharaji

To: JIM--just includes Maharaji
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 08, 1998 at 23:47:08 (EST)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: Forum Rating System:update
Message:
Funny.... I laughed and laughed.
cash= contains also some humour.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 10:09:54 (EST)
From: RT time
Email: he male
To: Keith
Subject: Forum Rating update meditate
Message:
Sounds good to me Keith! Internet email does this: HUM is humor.
We could also use smiley colons :)

Humor Army Acronyms...HAA!

RT
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 10:19:01 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: Gerry
Subject: Forum Rating System
Message:
Dear Gerry, Keith and RT,
I love these but they would have to be used in conjuction with each other like:
cash/ccm
Call a board members meeting!!!!
Robyn
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 08, 1998 at 15:22:18 (EST)
From: x
Email: None
To: Judex
Subject: reply to Judex
Message:
Dear Judex,
Thank you for your concern regarding my problems. You are right in guessing that I am clean now. However I am not cocky and realize I am not out of thr woods yet. I only have a few months but I feel much stronger in my resolve than I ever have. I've done the whole re-hab 12 steps thing, but had a lot of trouble with the higher power shit (wht a surprise!)A book called Rational Recovery helped 50 times more than 40,000 dollars worth of rehabs! Incredibly this site is helping me immensley(sp?).Like i said addiction is addiction and the parallels are totally there.I read about your travails with pot and can definitely relate since I'm still addicted to that substance. First things first though, Weed is next.
Thanks for the support, x
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 08, 1998 at 19:48:20 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: x
Subject: reply to Judex
Message:
Dear x,
I'm going to butt in here (I am sure Judex will have something to say, but she lives on the other side of the world and I haven't figured out her schedule yet.) I was interested that you mentioned 'Rational Recovery', because I just read it. I thought the ideas were good although I did think that the guy put down AA too much.

I had trouble with the image of 'the Beast'. I knew exactly what he was talking about, but I would not use those words to describe that part of myself at all. To me it's more like 'the little kid' (I don't have a very lovable inner child, I guess).

Also, I am interested in knowing how this site has helped you - if you could go into a little more detail? I know you're not a fast typist, so please take your time, but it helps Brian and me to know what parts of the site people have found especially helpful. (Anyone else who is reading this and wants to answer this question, please do so.)

Regards,
Katie
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 08, 1998 at 20:02:36 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Forum benefits
Message:
Helped unearth and express long held resentments and anger against BM.

Gave me the desire to learn to think more critically.

Rekindled a desire to understand 'hard sciences'

Gave me the chance to 'meet' and talk to a lot of really great people.

Allowed me the freedom to cuss out and be kinda mean to some real idiots.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 08, 1998 at 20:08:25 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: Forum benefits
Message:
Gerry, when I started posting here in January, it was like I was crawling out from under a rock.
I felt ashamed that I had been involved for so long.
I felt like a bad person. That I wasn't spiritual enough. that I was too judgemental (of the premies and M) That I just didn't 'get it'.
I had no one to talk to about it.

Now I see lots of people who stayed around on the fence like me.

I see that some of my judgements about M and premies were right on. Learning to trust my senses is a gift and the forum gave that to me.

People here put up with me when I ranted and acted out some of my anger and hurt. Then I have been given the chance to do the same for others.

It's been amazing. The best use for the web I've encountered.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 08, 1998 at 20:41:15 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Selena
Subject: Forum benefits
Message:
God I can't even deside who to address this to!
I found the site in response to a curiosity about BM today and to fill many idle hours at work with more that computer games.
What I have received for my efforts is much more than I expected. I have remembered much that I had forgotten when I posted my journey on my first visit to the site. I see how my involvment was just another addictive type of activity other than learning the meditation.
I have found real joy in getting to know all that post here over time and also those who have become more to me than an unknown person posting here.
You have all made my life richer and I am so grateful for that.
This is a place where I can go and speak to others with differnt views and similar views but all have a perspective into a spiritual path which is almost totally absent in my physical world.
Love the forum and the forum is all who participate!
Robyn
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 08, 1998 at 22:32:52 (EST)
From: x
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: forum benefits
Message:
Hi Katie,
When I read Rational Recovery last year, it was while I was in a rehab, All the counselors there were 12 step nazi's Who couldn't take seriously any other options for treatment of addiction. I was practically a pariah for having a copy of RR, which they dismissed without even reading.And they were experts!RR has some flaws but at least its an option. 12 steps reminds me of BM. They ridicule other methods than their own as being a waste of time and only they know the true path, which by the way ,includes submission to a judgemental asshole god.They pretend to be tolerant and benign, at first, then they go for the kill later, surrender to your higher power. Unfortunately my Higher P doesnt,
give a shit if I surrender to it,or not, and would actually prefer I didn't.
Anyway, this site shows me another way people are curing addictions.If not to toxic substances, then to toxic megalomaniacs. The one part of 12 steps that worked at all was talking with other people who I could relate to. Like here.

Bye now, x
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 08, 1998 at 22:51:27 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: x
Subject: forum benefits
Message:
Hi x

I am in agreement about the traditional 12 steppers. They made my life a living hell in rehab. I walked out 3 days before my so called 'graduation' which consisted of being given a smaller sized big book (not as inconspicuous?) and some kind of pin, one of many to come supposedly. I read about RR much later and thought it may have helped me at that time, if only because at least it's new and had to have left off some of the old crap.

supposedly the Guru Papers says AA is a cult, I haven't read it yet. But I agree it is a cult.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 06:06:34 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: Selena
Subject: forum benefits
Message:
God, after reading the last few posts I've realised that one way of looking at my life is to see I have gone from one cult to another!
First I tried to be a hippy, then became addicted to drugs,
during which time I joined a New Age group called 'Joy Energy Life'. I spent about 2 years and several thousand dollars doing seminars with them on weekends. I did service as well there.
Then I joined NA for about 3 years (a 12 step cult, apparently).
Next it was Knowledge (full on for about 3 1/2 years)
My god - I just have to read that Guru book - get me to it!
What makes me so vulnerable?

One thing I related to - I was reading an article about Phil Hartman (the comedian who died recently) and he described himself as 'never making waves - even as an adult having a passive, people-pleasing middle-child mentality.' I relate to that. I find it so hard to make plans, to make decisions, to really make my life my own, just on my own, just be an actual individual. It's hard to describe. I think I play games just to seem complex and interesting, when really I just have a long way to go as an autonomous being.

As far as the Forum goes, I was thinking about it coming home today. I almost feel as though I need to back off to get some perspective - on how good it is. I don't want to spoil the potential it has by getting bogged down in stuff I don't really mean or really need to say here. Then again, it is cleansing. I've never told anyone all of the stuff I've told you guys. If you can live with it, maybe it means I really can be my actual self with other people on a more regular basis.

I think people who haven't read the material available here just don't know enough about Maharaji to be able to make informed decisions. It's as simple as that. I also know that right now, if I thought this was all nonsense and he really was the only light in this dark world, I could make that decision too. There's no pressure here at all. I love this and I intend to make the most of it, and that includes just reading sometimes, listening to others and not always having to blab on. It's what other people say and have contributed here that has shown me some more reality.

I realised the really good thing about someone like Jim, is, Jim, you actually listen to what people say. You are a good listener, and then you feed back on what you have heard, as well as discussing what you want to talk about. Just want to say I am learning from everyone here.

Long Live the Forum, and may it continue to evolve!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 16:10:24 (EST)
From: Stephen Harris
Email: mulcyber@pacbell.net
To: Selena
Subject: forum benefits
Message:
Hello,

I have considered whether AA and Catholicism are cults.
Though there are some similarities, I don't think so.
First of all it doesn't cost any money to attend AA.
They are up front in the first meeting about what is
involved when the Steps and Traditions are read. This
is informed consent, much different than what goes on
in a cult. And I guess the most important thing is that
I stopped drinking 11 years ago. Though I haven't been to
a meeting in two years. So it works for some people.
I don't use religious criteria for determining a cult.
Like pronouncements provided by the Mormons.

Regards,
Stephen
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 18:46:41 (EST)
From: eb
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: forum benefits
Message:
The forum has provided a place for me to let go of Maharaji and to sort out a major part of my past. Also, I've started questioning the last vestiges of new age hooey hooey beliefs I've held. I'm halfway through The Guru Papers (haven't had time to read much lately because our scripts are due next week). I feel as though I'm awakening, but at the same time, I'm getting in touch with a part of me that I try to avoid. That part knows I'm gonna die and is very frightened. I have to watch myself--I tend to dwell on death and forget to live. (I'm not very popular here at work).

Thank you all for being there!
eb
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 22:20:44 (EST)
From: Stephen Harris
Email: mulcyber@pacbell.net
To: eb
Subject: forum benefits
Message:
When I gave up my New Age beliefs, it was the honest thing to do.
But my zest for living went with it. What to replace it with?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 23:30:20 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: Stephen Harris
Subject: forum benefits
Message:
This may seem mean, but:
One thing that entertains me is listening to them (the new-agers) and watching them do their thing. I share an office with a maga-new-ager. She does some kind of moving hands over people so-called physical spiritual work. She goes to her rolfer and her yoga teacher and she reads this and has read everything and the best part, she knows everything, has advice you never wanted on everything - every herbal cure I already learned in the 70's etc.

she is 10 years older than me so she is a real zealot having been one of those who thought our generation was so cool back then.
ugh!! The funniest part to me is that whenever she gets vaguely busy or has the slightest work pressure put on her she gets seriously uptight. So much for new-age survivalism. It's mean but you have to admit it's entertaining. Know anyone like that? It is a great hobby, studying that type when they get in adverse situations.
Other things? I get high on exercise. Running is my favorite but I have recently had to cool it with that due to health problems, but any exercise that gives me a similar rush is fun.
Other stuff: getting involved in mainstream life is a hoot for someone like me who has been so far on the edge for so long.
Don't know if that fits you. But for me, attending classes, excelling at work, it's like a big game and it's new and exciting and fun. Someday I hope to get my spirituality integrated but for now this is new and important, this world of sensing and judgeing.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 03:49:42 (EST)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: Selena
Subject: forum benefits
Message:
Selena, one must separate the goats from the sheep.
I have 'worked' as a practioner at a number of new age festivals and I hate the new age vibe...so holy...so much spiritual ego....but it's no different essentially than most group situations....I would always meditate in my own way ...and pass through all the layers of reaction to my enviroment and find a place within me that was just me,just non-reactive, simply comfortable with my own solitary space. That's the challenge!
People who are too obsessed with the ego's of others usually have low self-esteems, I have found.
But if one (I) is honest...I mean really raw...then I (one) can see that most people are insecure and we cover this up and project our insecurity onto those we perceive as being up themselves.
It's tricky. I have often been in situations where I know others will project onto me the image of being egoic ; it's an illusion ; we are all egoic on one level...we all really care what others think about us, but the real issue is can we transcend that level?
There is another level that is more real , more solid, more who we really are. And that is the only real challenge.
Otherwise we play a game of merry-go-round that leads nowhere.
Don't minimise your potential just because you've been sickened by the more glamourous and exotic trappings of this new age religion.
The truth is about YOU...who you really are.
It has always been that way.
With sincerity, Keith
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 15:28:41 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: forum benefits
Message:
Thank you Keith. I try. I have said often here that for me it's a pendulum kind of thing. Too many years have been lost in which I denied the material world and belittled critical thinking and the world of the senses. I need to catch up.
It's true that often when I am critical it's because I am insecure. The particular I mentioned above is more of an anger thing that this person makes more money than me (a little) and spends hours arranging her volunteer projects while here at work, and generally having a leisurely life. I just wish I didn't have to see it every day. I am very busy and actually I like it better that way but it still is annoying when she kind of bristles if I get a little intense. And is always ready with this cosmic advice that I am not asking for. ah well, Dilbert calls it the 2 person to a cell syndrome.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 07:00:28 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: Stephen Harris
Subject: forum benefits
Message:
When I gave up my New Age beliefs, it was the honest thing to do.
But my zest for living went with it. What to replace it with?


Yes I can relate to this Stephen. Apart from survival and family, I am thinking right now about what I want to do with the rest of my life. Knowledge certainly seemed to place me in a kind of 'floating' situation. Just had to breathe to mark time.
Astrology and new age stuff were partly tools for me to try and identify why I was here, etc. I dropped out of tertiary education at 19 and haven't been able to go back to it, though I did a mature entry course a few years back.
I'm pretty lost, I guess that's why people turn to making money or career success in some corporation - to have a purpose.

Creating purpose is hard. I was told I was a wounded healer, someone who should work in mass communication or that eventually I would work with symbols in some way.

But then I was also told I would meet a dark-haired man who had a limp and smoked a pipe, on a ship voyage (some time). Love those dark-haired men!

Keep talking, Stephen. Communicating is a good for zest, me thinks.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 00:22:34 (EST)
From: Stephen Harris
Email: mulcyber@pacbell.net
To: Judex
Subject: forum benefits
Message:
I gave up on Gumaraji when I heard about sex, booze, airline
hostesses and being chased from hotel to hotel in India.

But I thought that perhaps I would come across something
genuine. Channeling hooked me for awhile. After all my
spirit guides were Kwan Yin, Lao-Tsu, Mohter Mary amd
Koot Hoomi (Kuthumi) so I was told. I have found all these
gurus and New Age Masters to be fraudulent. I mention this
as a warning from people who might be going from the frying
pan into the fire. I tried several. Now I'm not sure I
believe in a God anymore. Especially one, that has a special
interest in my destiny. My friend is happy because she thinks
she serves Divine Mother. Have you had any problem keeping
friends who no longer share your basic beliefs? I need to
rescue myself and develop a sense of purpose; but I don't
think I'm up to the task. One thing I still believe in, is
that tomorrow is always another day.

Regards,
Stephen
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 06:50:54 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: eb
Subject: forum benefits
Message:
what scripts are you referring to eb?
Also, yes I have the death fear thingy too. But I like to think that god is bigger than me, brought me here, and will take me home one day.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 10:07:56 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: eb
Subject: fear of death
Message:
Dear eb -
I know what you mean about clearing out the New Age beliefs. I had a whole belief system in place by the time I was 21, and it was all based on that stuff. I've had to replace most of it with a big question mark. I can't say, like Jim, that ALL that stuff isn't true, because I don't think anyone really knows. For example, no one really knows what happens after death (which is one reason I think it's silly to discuss it on this site.)

When you talk about fear of death, do you mean that you are afraid because you're losing a belief that you had about what would happen to you after you died? Or is it something else? As far as I am aware, I have never had a real fear of death (except of dying in a horrible and painful way), but I do have a lot of fear about people close to me dying, mostly because it's happened so much. I would like to know what you mean, if you don't mind talking about it.

Take care, eb,
Love from Katie
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 14:19:26 (EST)
From: eb
Email: None
To: Judex and Katie
Subject: fear of death
Message:
I'm always so surprised and honored when I get responses to my messages--I guess I have a bit of the schizoid in me.

Judex--My son (the one in the closet) and I are collaborating on some scripts for a sitcom. My son has the ideas; I'm writing jokes and doing the editing.

Katie--My 7-year old said to me yesterday (and I consider this the beginning of the end when they figure this part out), 'Mom, do we really have to die?' I figured it out when I was 3-years old. I used to cry myself to sleep. That was also the year when I first saw Light and talked to it (without pushing in my eyeballs). I believed the Light was God and it told me that I had a purpose, and a mission. That got me through until I was about 13 and started on the hard stuff. Met Maharaji when I was 16 and the rest is history.

I've theorized that it's my ego's recognition that the body's got to go some day. Not that I'm all that attached to it now. I've sort of worn mine out. But maybe I'm just in touch with my ego's survival instinct or something. Whatever it is, I figure it's the basis of my clinical depression.

What do you think?
eb
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 14:38:07 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: eb
Subject: fear of death
Message:
dear eb,
I can never remember being afraid of my own death. I remember realizing that my parents were going to die when I was about five, and crying myself to sleep at night over that. I almost died when I was born, so maybe that's why I am not afraid of it - who knows? (Been there, done that?)

What I can relate to is the depressing nature of the purposelessness of existence. You know: you're born, you live, you die, what's the difference? I have been known to get very depressed about that and think that nothing matters. (I think that is the reason a lot of people have kids, by the way - to have a reason for living. That's what evolutionary psychology says is our purpose, anyway.) This depression is enhanced when I realize how generally horrible people are to each other and to animals. (I quit reading the daily newspaper and watching the news after I realized they were making me even more depressed. They always seem to focus on the most awful stuff.)

Anyway, I don't really 'get' the fear of death stuff, unless it's the fear that life has no meaning. Do you think that has anything to do with it?

Katie
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 16:46:58 (EST)
From: eb
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: fear of death
Message:
Katie,

I know what you mean by the seeming purposelessness of existence leading to depression. But what I'm talking about is actually the love of existence so much so that the realization that death is inevitable crushes and immobilizes me. The next response I have is to become bitter and resentful. Thereafter, I repress my anger and become suicidal.

Nowadays, I tend to become depressed and find solace in the fact that some day I will not have to deal with my daughter, the Goth from hell who flunked math and didn't get promoted today. I'm tired of being a mom. Sometimes, it just doesn't seem worth it.

eb
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 16:53:48 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: eb
Subject: fear of death
Message:
It's not worth it a lot of the time. But, they grow up.
From experience I can say that if you can find a way to stay loving and supportive and all the other good stuff then you will like youself better after they grow up. You'll have less guilt.

This little bit of hard earned wisdom is for you. Purely selfishly for you and not the goth.

I don't know if I could have at the time eb, but, if it is remotely possible for you to appreciate what I am saying take it for what it's worth. I just feel for you so much, been there.

Selena - who just accused someone else of blathering unsolicited advice.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 17:15:39 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Selena and eb
Subject: fear of death
Message:
I made the purely selfish decision to not have kids very early on in my adulthood (so called). Other than occasionally twinges, I have no regrets. I came from a large family and my brothers and sisters all have kids. I feel for you guys, and realize you've experienced joys and sorrows I'll never know.

Gerry--Whose accusations of pomposity are a reflection of his own?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 17:49:23 (EST)
From: eb
Email: None
To: Selena
Subject: Soliciting Advice/Parenting
Message:
Hi Selena,
Thanks for that.

But let me ask you--what should I do? I am so busy working fulltime, writing in the evenings, driving kids to and fro, cleaning, cooking, etc., that I tend to be very lenient with my kids. Fortunately, 3 out of 5 can handle lenient parenting. My little Italian Goth is another story.

So this morning she comes in while I'm getting dressed and asks me for money so she can go to the movies with her friends. First off, she's not getting to walk in the graduation because she flunked math and has to go to summer school. Second, she insists she doesn't know why she's flunking. So I tell her she's grounded until she passes math (6 weeks). (She still has her own phone, tv/vcr, stereo in her own room. She just can't go hang out with friends. And BTW, when she starts school next week, she'll be in the same class with three of her closest friends so I know she'll have fun).

After re-reading this I think to myself, 'what am I so confused about. Of course she deserves the consequences. I wouldn't be doing my job as a mother if I didn't enforce the rules, i.e., get decent grades.'

But it's not that easy for me. This daughter spends hours bemoaning her fate, bitching and complaining on and on. She hates my husband (her step-dad) and speaks horribly to him. My husband and I have been together for about 10 years, and he has a funny way of dealing with her and is quite frank. He pointed out to me that her responses generally boil down to 'Fuck you asshole and give me money.'

I was extremely enmeshed and guilt-ridden about having given birth to her in the first place. I wasn't married, didn't love her father, and essentially, just wanted another baby. So I got her and she's been teaching me lessons ever since. (Three months after I had her I started into therapy). She's so persistent and tenacious in her whining that I find it hard to stay centered. I can do it sometimes. But I'm currently at a low point and it's hard to deal with her.

I feel better just getting this out. I can't believe how depressed I got over this. I'm so afraid for her. Maybe it's payback for the time I ran off with the rock band. Oh the hell I put mom thru.

But really, I would love to hear how parents who have had difficult teenagers would do it differently or the same. What works?

Thanks for being here.
eb
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 18:04:08 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: eb
Subject: Soliciting Advice/Parenting
Message:
eb I'd try but really - I'm the wrong one to ask. i posted that to you because I felt so bad for you. I did everything wrong. I was working and going to school and a single parent. Everything seemed ok. I picked good day care programs. Good schools. We were friends. Then they hit adolescence and ... i sucked as a mother all of a sudden. I tried disclipline, no go. I tried ignoring things. Worse yet. They were home and i had to work. They stopped going to school. They got high. on and on. I tried so hard but in the end I ended up addicted to benzos.
All I can say is, the ONLY reqrets I have now are the times i yelled and screamed and said horrible awful things. And the time I did something I can't tell anyone about (not abuse to them thank god) All the other stuff goes by and time heals. The odds are real good she'll make it.
Oh yeah, and math sucks.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 20:32:27 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: eb
Subject: Soliciting Advice/Parenting
Message:
Dear eb,
Isn't this were we started! :) or :(
As you may or may not remember Jade was also grounded for 6 weeks with a long list of work and her grounding 'rules' written out and posted on the fridge, say that if she doesn't put her heart into her chores and do a very good job, which will show me she is understanding my point and trying to learn from this. That her grounding would be lengthened until she did complete the chores in a diligent way. She has been very good and we re-negotiated the contract, she approached me. She is doing all the dishes and that was to end when school ended but she suggested getting off grounding 2 weeks early and she would continue doing all the dishes for the summer. She started out wanting to get 3.5 weeks off and would do the dishes through next school year! I said no way was I draging this whole thing out that far! Anyway, I also let her off last Sat. for her boyfriend's graduation and parties. I let her stay at the party all night and knew they would be drinking. I just told her to stay put and not get into any cars and be home by 11 am Sun. morning. I thought that was lienient(sp). I will have to start checking my spelling again when Scott comes back :) She was crying Monday night to me on the phone because she was lonely for her friends. I talked to her at length about this and asked what would help. She said just to let her off for a night! I reminded her that she had just been 'let off' for a night 2 nights ago! I explained again that this was happening to her because she disregarded seriously considering the consiquences at the time. She says she knew she'd be grounded for a month with lost of chores so she apparently considered the consequenses somewhat and she KNOWS me and that I feel it is my job to teach her responsibility.
What David suggested to me when I was distraught and posted here about Jade, I think will work for some kids, as you've said it has worked for 3 out of 5 of yours but with the others it is a little harder, I guess.
Hope I've been of some help. Feel free to email me too eb as if I have a message I will ALWAYS reply to it.
I don't know if you are getting anything out of this or not and I know each kid is so different but I try to mix leneancy (just look at all the spelling possibilities!) with strictness.
Love and support,
Robyn
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 10:26:59 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: x
Subject: forum benefits
Message:
Dear x,
Your opinion of the 12 steps program matches mine although I never was involved as an addict, but like Katie, as a Child of a dysfunctional family, which they put with ACOA's. I always had a real problem with that higher power stuff too. I continue to be a spiritual person but I have a lot of trouble with the label 'higer power'.
I have done my work basically on my own with the support of friends and even more so with the support of those here on the forum. I did go to an excellent therapist about 10 years ago who believed in the possibility of anything really, reincarnation etc. so I could talk to her about myself completely. She told me I had already done most of the inner work on my issue at the time and that helped me to validate my own power to heal myself. It has been slow but steady and since being here the pace has picked up. I wish you healing and hope I can, along with the rest, be of help to you.
Robyn
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 08, 1998 at 14:52:51 (EST)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Challenging science and Jim
Message:
I recommend a book by Ian Currie...
'You Cannot Die....the incredible findings of a century of research on death'(Element are the publishers).
Scientists are now researching OBE's.....I'll reproduce one experiment here.

The first OBE experiment with an electroencephalograph, or EEG
(a device fer recording the electical activity of the brain), was conducted by Dr. Charles Tart, a University of California psychologist, after one of his friends, a young woman in her early twenties, claimed that, since childhood, she had had OBE's two to four times a week during sleep. She would awaken, she said, to find herself floating near the ceiling, looking down at her sleeping body below.
He invited her to reproduce this feat in his laboratory while wired to an electroencephalograph to see what her brain was doing while she was 'out'. Tart constructed a shelf close to the ceiling of the room in which she was to sleep. Above it he placed an electric clock, and on it a five-digit random number. On the forth night of the experiment, Miss Z awoke, correctly identified the number(it was 25132), and indicated at what time she had floated up to see it. When her EEG readings for that time period were examined , they were discovered to be unique.
Dr. William Dement, one of the world's leading authorities on sleep research , was unable to identify her reading as any known sleeping or waking pattern.'

Personally I have not needed scientific 'proof' to know the reality of such experiences....I have also had OBE's all my life.
But I feel that Jim's position is somewhat extreme....read Gerry's posts in a thread below...regarding dousing, etc.....and needs to be challenged on this forum for the sake of balance and also to suggest that some science is breaking out of its usual conservative mould and doing some 'hard' research into the 'physics' of so-called 'metaphysical' experience.

Keith.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 08, 1998 at 16:03:58 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: Not interested
Message:
I've decided I'm not interested in pursuing any of this science/mysticism debate. Premies, and now apparently a number of ex-premies are obviously into spiritual shit. So be it. I'm not a one-man skeptic's society and I don't have the time to argue about all this stuff with everyone.

Take for example Gerry's questions about dowsing or Wilhelm Reich and Martin Gardner. Much as I'm interested in all this, I simply don't have the time to go out and learn what I have to learn to properly comment. I don't have the articles, the books, whatever.

So, I'm just going to leave it. You guys can think whatever the hell you want to. You want to believe in ufo's and organometers and astrology and gurus, help yourself. You want to think that you've got the wisdom and integrity those poor scientists lack, fine. I don't but hey, that's just me.

So, from now on, I'm going to limit my discussions here to Maharaji.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 08, 1998 at 16:23:58 (EST)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Not interested
Message:
That's fine Jim....but personally I believe that your views about 'all that spiritual shit' must overlap into your views about Maharaji, what he does, who he is and what he offers.
I speak , not as a premie....I no longer feel a need to align myself to M or anyone else....but from a perspective of wanting to understand as comprehensively as possible.
You cannot isolate Maharaji as a topic from everything else, and especially those topics that relate to the spiritual quest.
Your need or choice to focus on Maharaji in this way is to me somewhat bogus , evasive and narrow.
But that's just my view.
Do what you want.
Keith
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 08, 1998 at 16:52:15 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Not interested
Message:
Jim:
You want to think that you've got the wisdom and integrity those poor scientists lack, fine. I don't but hey, that's just me.

Does this mean you don't have the wisdom and integrity or you think we don't. Does 'we' mean anyone outside of your particular belief system?

organometers?? What's that? Never heard of that one. Is it a device to measure livers or something?

You want to believe in ufo's and organometers and astrology and gurus, help yourself. Is the jury really in on ufos?

So, from now on, I'm going to limit my discussions here to Maharaji. I simply don't have the time to go out and learn what I have to learn to properly comment.

I think this is a good idea. Don't bother answering the above.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 08, 1998 at 17:16:30 (EST)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Keith
Subject: Grrr....!
Message:
Here I am taking a break from the forum. I haven't even been gone a fortnight and Keith has to post this tosh. It was bad enough reading the 'mysteries' threads below, and I tried to keep a respectful distance from all that out of courtesy if nothing else, but this one was the last straw, I am afraid.

Keith. Listen, pal, you are on my patch here, and I am sorry to have to tell you that Charles Tart is to objective science pretty much what BM is to ballet dancing. I would say that Tart has throughout his research career attracted probably more criticism from both colleagues working in parapsychology and sceptical outsiders from other areas of science than any other paranormalist. (He's sold plenty of books though - a phenomenon doesn't have to genuine, unfortunately, for it to gain popular acceptance.)

I shall not detail the methodological flaws that have been glaringly apparent in much of of his published research. But I would ask you to consider carefully the following three questions:

(1) Why, over the last two decades, has not one single independent replication of this remarkable finding (the OBE number-guessing trick) been successfully carried out under scientific conditions?

(2) Why haven't Tart and his research accomplice claimed James Randi's prize (now standing at a whopping $100,000) for the first demonstration of a paranormal effect under controlled conditions. Not just the prize money is at stake here, but a wonderful chance to get one over on Targ's number-one tormentor at the same time, and prove to the world once and for all that the paranormal is for real.

(3) Why hasn't Tart been nominated for his Nobel prize? An observable, replicable anomoly that defies all physical laws would be certainly worthy of one.

Good to see that you're maybe taking up Jim's challenge and doing a bit of reading in this area. Recommend the following:

Beyond the Body: An Investigation of Out of the Body Experiences. and Parapsychology and Out of The Body Experiences both by Susan Blackmore.

Also, look up the following in any good technical reference:

'sensory leakage', 'randomisation bias', 'file drawer problem', 'doctored figures', 'fraud', 'conjuring'.

The research of all the most famous parapsychologists claiming geniune evidence has subsequently been found to be tainted by one or more of these. Wherever the flaw was inadvertent and subsequently controlled for in later research, the paranormal effect simply disappeared. There isn't one exception.

That's all. Haven't got time for dowsing. Didn't really mean to get involved here, so I'll be off again.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 08, 1998 at 19:18:44 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Grrr....!
Message:
Do you think Randi would pay me the hunnerd gran if'n I could demo dowsing for him? That would beat hell out of surveyor's wages. Probably not since I don't have a college educashun, tho.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 08, 1998 at 19:32:30 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: to Nigel
Message:
Dear Nigel -
A piece of advice (from experience): if you really want to stay off the forum, don't read it! Maybe you can restrain yourself better than I can, but everyone has their breaking point.

On the other hand, it's nice to know that we can summon you forth by writing enough posts about our belief in parapsychological phenomena!

Regards,
Katie
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 06:34:55 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Nigel
Message:
Nigel, don't go! We need people like yourself, Jim and Scott on this Forum - it's actually exciting to see the two engage - science and mysticism. Personally I don't feel very whole hearted about mysticism any more. It's like having stuffed your face with lollies until you never want to see another one.
I associate it with having a breakdown and with drugs and with stuff that may be titillating but isn't substantial.
These days I am more interested in science (but forget Quantum physics). I liked the science/religion program I saw recently where it showed these scientists in Europe who work with atoms on something like a molecule raceway. (I forget the whole context - it was only a brief mention!) I loved the idea of all these clean cut intelligent super duper people playing with matter; what a life! I want to be like them - in my next life.

However, my serious point here is that you don't see scientists engage very often in this kind of debate, to share their perspective with the 'public' (who haven't had the advantages of their education????)

I know it could be tedious but lots & lots of people are getting sucked in - not just to magazine astrology but to spells and witch craft and god knows what.

We all go thru our own evolution, but I for one appreciate challenges to my belief system. The whole point, to me, is, does it make me happy? If it does, fine. If it feels bad, I don't want it.

That's all folks!!!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 08, 1998 at 19:25:01 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Keith
Subject: Challenging science and Jim
Message:
Dear Keith, Jim, Gerry,
I read this post a bit ago and just got off work. If you know me at all you know that I believe in honesty within the arena of kindness. Some of the things I've been thinking I worry will offend Jim but I hope, Jim, that you will not hold it against me. Who knows there is a good chance that I can write this, get it out of my system and you won't even read it. Kind of like my not reading premie posts!
I don't have a problem with your not agreeing with those of us who believe in what is beyond the surface. You say you don't have time to invest in research. That is fine, neither do I, as I posted to you below and which you did not answer, as far as I know.
I believe you have a hard time with anyone who doesn't agree with you. You may tolerate them but I feel that you hold them/me in some degree of distain. You have come to where you are by the events in your life that shaped you. I am the same, different events, different results. I think you are, most generally content with where you are. Although I feel the same about my life for the most part. I do have issues I am working on now, men, my dad, actually and know of other issues I need to explore to become satisfied with myself. I imagine there will always be something to improve on.
I am constantly working to 'become more human' as david f. puts it. That endevor is tightly entertwined with my spiritual growth. Those of us who believe in these things you do not, believe in them because we have experienced them. Whatever the reasons, scientific, phsycological(sp), emotional, the fact remains that experiences that are not easily explained have happend to us and many many people who've heard nothing of BM or us also. Are we all kooks? Maybe in your eyes but what would I do if I felt that way about myself, commit myself, follow a guru, commit suicide if none of that worked! I love myself, and you, remember? If we were all the same how boring a life that would be!
I can't go back and look at your post or I will lose what I've written but you say that you just aren't interested in continuing this discussion and that really is fine but it does smack of a premie's ending to a discussion about BM. I did have a problem with your saying something like what the hell do I care. It just sounded so condesending, that distain. I don't care if you don't contribute to these discussions but for myself I am very happy that they are here.
Well, now that I've gotten that off my chest I think I will sleep well tonight. I'm sure it would have escalated and been buzzing around my brain while I should be sleeping.
Keith, I just want you to know how happy I was when I saw your Mysteries thread and this one. Maybe this isn't the place to discuss this but it feel so right to me, as I said above.
Gerry, I didn't know you have had any experiences of this type, have you explained any? I haven't been here but for a few moments, since Friday. Tomorrow it is back to my job where I usually have no work but I will have some the next few days but I will be able to spend some time here. I hope to hear about some of your experiences. It is nice to know that I am/we are not alone here, all alone and defying science!
Robyn
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 08, 1998 at 19:46:35 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Challenging science and Jim
Message:
Hi Robyn

Always nice to ''hear'' your voice. Sorry to disappoint you, but I'm not too cosmic. Probably less than most people. I almost never experience the things others apparently do including Reiki, any of Wilhelm Reich's energetic devices, hypnotism, etc.

The only exceptions to that I have already talked about here on the forum. With dowsing, all I did was to hold two brass rods, parallel and about 8 inches apart and walk across somebody's front yard. When the welding rods turned in towards each other, there would be a metal pipe underground at this point.

Doesn't seem that big of a deal but I guess it could be worth $100,000 from the right person. However, I'm not sure I can even still do it (haven't tried in years) and if I could, could I 'perform under the gun?'

The only other thing was speaking in tongues and I think modern psychology has pretty much explained that one away. Oh well. Hope I haven't bored anybody to badly here.

PS to Nigel: Could dowsing be an example of this ' 'sensory leakage'' i.e. picking up sensory clues of the normal type and then unconsciously moving the rods together when a pipe is detected? Just a thought.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 08, 1998 at 20:32:33 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: Gerry
Subject: Challenging science and Jim
Message:
Dear Gerry,
Thanks for not getting on my shit for what I said to virtual Jim since you are in agreement with him. :)
Robyn
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 08, 1998 at 20:40:36 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Challenging science and Jim
Message:
Robyn,

I had to laugh when you said: Thanks for not getting on my shit for what I said to virtual Jim since you are in agreement with him.

I doubt very much if Jim sees it that way!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 08, 1998 at 20:56:49 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: A clarification
Message:
When I said Sorry to disappoint you, but I'm not too cosmic. Probably less than most people. I almost never experience the things others apparently do including Reiki, any of Wilhelm Reich's energetic devices, hypnotism, etc.

I only meant that I personally did not have the experience of these things. I was not denying the possibility for other people. I know lots of people have had incredible experiences which defy explanation according to what we presently know .

I'm perhaps even a bit jealousy of you all, because ''these things don't work for me.'' For example, hypnotism. In a classroom experiment I looked around and almost everyone else was following the suggestions. I just though, 'huh?' and thought they all looked kinda goofy. I just wasn't affected, as much as I truly wanted to experience hypnosis. Ditto for most other things like that, especially meditation, which really pissed me off, because nothing ever happened.

Comprende vous?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 08, 1998 at 22:06:33 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: Gerry
Subject: A clarification
Message:
Yes, Gerry dear, I comprende. I am glad you explained. As I mentioned some time ago, it all started with going into trances by staring at a roll of toliet paper! It's simple, cheap, try it! God I am still at work after 15 FUCKING hours! Is there a 12 step program for addiction to the computer! Ugh, :(
Robyn
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 08, 1998 at 22:31:20 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: A clarification
Message:
We seem to have something in common Robyn. I worked all day Saturday (except for forum breaks) and part of Sunday.
Now I am here trying and I can't concentrate to save my life!!!
And I'd email this to you but the last thing in the world I want to do at the moment is configure my stripped down Netscape 4 for mail. (why is it so hard in the new version? I can't even find mail settings! They screwed up with the new Netscape, in my opinion. They changed everything around.
It was somewhat comforting to see someone else going thru this but I don't wish it on you.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 08, 1998 at 22:43:28 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Selena
Subject: Netscape (rated MBB)
Message:
Hi Selena,

I downloaded that goddam Netscape new version and I thought I was going to have to learn a programming language just to get it to bookmark websites. What a pain in the ass. I couldn't believe it. Went back to the old Internet Explorer 3.0something to save my sanity.

PS I bought Fear and Loathing today because of you guys. Six Bucks. It better be worth it!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 08, 1998 at 22:55:35 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: Netscape (rated MBB)
Message:
I won't lose sleep over your 6 bucks Gerry but I have to tell you
HST is not for everyone. You have to remember the time and place it was written in. What I love about him is his interjections into the story, his insights and commentaries. If Fear and Loathing isn't your cup of whatever, I suggest his compilation of essays and short stories, 'The Great Shark Hunt' That's my favorite. (but buy it used so I don't feel strange)
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 08, 1998 at 23:05:15 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Selena
Subject: Netscape (rated MBB)
Message:
I DID buy'' F&L'' used and it looks like my cup of whatever (presently vodka and tonic with a lime, of course). If I wasn't HOOKED on this damn forum, I'd be reading it right now.

Whoops... are you a recovering...whatever? If so, sorry about the V and T reference.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 08, 1998 at 23:11:27 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: Netscape (rated MBB)
Message:
A V&T sounds just about right at the moment.

No I am not one of those. I did go to rehab because of an addiction to tranqs and alcohol, mostly went because I couldn't stop the pills and walk and talk at the same time. I got utterly disgusted with that whole mindset. I know it helps many and I want to say GOOD - do what works for you! I am not one of them, that's all.
I have found a balance, precarious as it is. I know I have a proclivity to extremes in everything so I am careful but not abstinant. It works mostly. I don't know. I am not a guru of how to handle mind altering substances, that's for sure.

Sorry for the tangent. I know there's a lot of 12 step people on here so I felt defensive,not toward you though.
Glad you like Fear and Loathing.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 10:57:38 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: Gerry
Subject: drinking
Message:
Dear Gerry,
In my drinking days I use to drink water and vodka or water and Yukon Jack. I knew the owners and employees at the place I went and so there was so little water in my drinks I had to get a seperate glass of water to go with it and they rarely would take my money. I found out just a year or so ago that they use to put some liquer into my glass of water too! Those were fun days and I look back on them mostly with fondness but I am a diabetic now and just writing this is turning my stomach. I did have 2 shots of peach schnapps on ice for my birthday and got quite the buzz!! I use to drink that if I didn't want to get drunk! I am a good designated driver now and love to go out dancing and seem very able to keep up with my friends as they loosen up with the drinks.
Robyn
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 10:39:13 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Selena
Subject: Selena
Message:
Dear Selena,
I have had 1.5 jobs since 1/10/98 and will be done with my full time job on 8/14, I am scared about the financial reality in that statement but god, I can't wait!!!!! The good thing is that I can make my own hours at my part time job. A few weekends ago I went in on a Fri. night at 11pm but as it turned out I just played on the forum and email until 2:30am so I know what you mean. It is hard some times to be 'on' all the time or when I'm off I am often exhausted. Now I have arranged it to be off Fri. night through Sun. most of the time so I have been able to do something fun on a weekend. I'll be thinking of you on my long days!
Robyn
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 06:51:27 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: depth of field
Message:
I just wasn't affected, as much as I truly wanted to experience hypnosis. Ditto for most other things like that, especially meditation, which really pissed me off, because nothing ever happened.

Gerry, I just have to comment on this comment! I am similar to you in this regard. I mentioned Reiki because in a way it's like dowsing. It's just something I could do (not everyone felt the tingles in their hands, etc after the initiation). Why me? I have no latent spiritual tendencies. I used to have a lot of dreams, very clear and meaningful dreams but I don't even have those any more. I sometimes feel there is nothing'special' about me.

When I was a kid at school the teacher asked the class to shut their eyes and imagine something, and I said 'all I could see was red!'. So there, you're not alone. I didn't experience much with knowledge, hardly anything. I did feel something in M's presence the first time I saw him (but have listened to him at times with total boredom).

Reiki is something that doesn't depend on a belief system, seems to work for minor ailments, is very ancient and yet science can't explain it I dont think (yet).

It just shows we have more to learn, to me. I don't put it in the same class, however as out of body or near death or past life experiences. They are way out of my depth.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 11:04:00 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Judex
Subject: depth of field
Message:
Dear Judex,
I almost posted a response to you somewhere else but now I am because I know you are going through a lot of shitty times now and when you say there is nothing 'special' about you I need to tell you you are wrong! Like you said in that other post, you have found you could share with us and so that leads you to belive you can share with people in your physical reality. I think that is very true and a natural outcome of this forum helping you. I hope that happens for you in your life. I think you are bright, contrary to your opinion, funny, caring, thoughtfull and open. I hope that you grow into seeing these and many more powerfull, strong and positive qualities in yourself. It may take time but you are working toward it, I believe.
I just love you and almost always read your posts, time permitting.
Take good care Judex,
Love,
Robyn
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 14:46:14 (EST)
From: carol
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: Butting in here
Message:
Gerry, I also am unhypnotizable, or at least I think so! But then I willingly submitted to brainwashing. I even remember saying,'I know it's brainwashing, but I want a clean mind!'
carol
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 08, 1998 at 20:57:53 (EST)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redrow.demon.co.uk
To: Gerry
Subject: Challenging science and Jim
Message:
Yes, Gerry, I think the picking up of unconscious cues from your surroundings has a lot to do with it when it does work (and I don't doubt that it has worked for you).

Also, when it comes to finding natural water sources, don't they say that dig deep enough and you will always come to water eventually?

Randi's 'Committee for the Investigation of Claims of the Paranormal', actually ran a huge experiment using top dowsers from all over the world. I think it was staged in a giant marquee where several underground water pipes had been buried. The use of the tent helped remove the unconscious cues, I think. Every dowser was confident of passing the test, and every dowser failed! (And they had all expressed total satisfaction with the experimental design before they took part).
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 08, 1998 at 21:09:50 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: The important thing
Message:
I think ''the truth'' (what ever the hell that means), is much more important than holding on to a particular belief system. Because beliefs are just that--beliefs. If they have to go, then so be it. Heave ho, sayanara. I'm no longer interested in maintaining theories that are untenable, in the face of new evidence. Actually it's quite exciting and liberating to chuck the bullshit.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 22:26:24 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Can we stand more on dowsing?
Message:
One thing I neglected to say in this whole discussion was that I was just a guy on the survey crew. The boss got out the 'L' shaped brass weld rods and said 'here, hold these like this and work slowly over the lawn until the rods turn in. Then look around for the valve cover (which was covered with dirt and had to be scuffed out).

I guess I could have said, ' wait this doesn't make any rational sense, there's no accepted theory to explain this.'

The boss was a no nonsense kind of guy and probably would have given me a good kick in the ass and said 'get to work'.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 09:50:27 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: Gerry
Subject: Can we stand more on dowsing?
Message:
Dear Gerry,
My advisor in the geography dept. told a story similar to yours. Someone showed him how to do it, he was skeptical and it worked! Must have impressed him becuase he tells the story from notes he uses everytime he teaches what ever class he told the story in.
Robyn
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 06:42:53 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: Dowsing
Message:
One thing I have read about it is to do with a theory that there are energy lines all over the world, like magnetic currents. That's partly how 'Feng Shui' works. There are some 'bad' places, energy wise, for example. You can feel it! Some of the 'bad' places have underground water, I remember that. Also, places such as the Andes and the Himalayas have very powerful energy fields.

This dowsing ability would mean you are in tune with those energy fields or currents. That is one tiny idea.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 11:13:29 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: Judex
Subject: Dowsing
Message:
Dear Judex,
There are magnetic lines of energy all through the earth, magnetic north is a term that deals with this Scientific fact! Why would it be so odd for a person to be sensitive to that energy. It sounds perfectly logical to me. Most of my unusual experiences involve energy also. Thanks for that info, it put a new twist on my take of much of this!
Robyn
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 21:58:30 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: Judex
Subject: Dowsing
Message:
Thanks Judex. You gave me an excuse to cut out early tonite.
I have been told that this building where I work is built on top of underground canals. No small feat for them to manage to do that in an incredibly arid environment. Now I know it's evil!
Gotta get out of here.
: )
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 08, 1998 at 23:07:03 (EST)
From: Peter
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Defending Jim! (?)
Message:
Robyn--

I'm not actually sure whether I'm defending Jim or not, since I'll be putting words in his mouth in order to do so, but I knew it would be an irresistible title.

I don't think that Jim is necessarily denying you these experiences that are outside the realm of what science has established. I think he is saying be careful how you interpret them--don't go overboard. Many people (not me) apparently have had experiences far removed from the 'normal' while practicing the four techniques. There is clearly validity to those experiences, but the fact that people had those experiences does not mean that Maharaji is Lord of the Universe. There's also many other things that those experiences DO NOT mean.

I'm more prone to put stock in day-to-day experiences being central to life than in any of these relatively rare 'paranormal' experiences.

But maybe I am, like Gerry, just jealous since I have had very few (and not very exciting) experiences of this kind myself.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 08, 1998 at 23:35:45 (EST)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: everyone
Subject: Jim and big M.
Message:
Jim and Maharaji would seem to have a lot in common.
Maharaji likes to ridicule and poo poo reincarnation , astrology and the new age nonsense... as Jim does...and Nigel.
I disagree with the three of them.

Until I understood what was happening to me (in my early thirties) I thought I was experiencing a type of catatonia.
I would be wide awake but could not move or speak.
I was as if dead...and I would often panic, thinking that if someone found me like this they would believe me dead and bury me alive.
During 1978 when I was living in Zurich (my ex was Swiss)I began doing primal therapy with a guy who'd been trained by Janov.....and I began experencing OBE's frequently (at night)
I then understood that all those 'catatonic' states I'd experienced had actually been OBE's.....and ever since my OBE's have been without the terror involved in not being able to re-enter my body.
One of the first OBE's I had in my Zurich phase involved me visiting London ....where my parents still lived.
I went to my old bedroom and was surprised to see many suitcases and travel bags on the bed and on the floor.
I didn't know that they were going to Australia a week hence to visit my sister.
I tried an experiment ...somehow moving a bag from the bed onto the floor.
The following morning I rang my parents. My mother was really surprised that I knew about the luggage on the bed and the floor of the bedroom because they hadn't yet posted the letter informing me of their trip.
Unfortunately my mum couldn't verify regarding the 'moved(?) ' bag.....but was anyway astonished.
I got more and more comfortable with OBE's after that.

Also some people who experienced OBE's and fully believed them to be proof of the soul are ,
Saint Augustine, Carl Jung, Wordsworth, Emily Bronte,
George Eliot, Alfred Tennyson, D.H. Lawrence, Virginia Woolf, John Buchan, Arthur Koestler, and Earnest Hemmingway.(to name but a few).
And OBE's are only one of a multitude of 'phenomona' that defy orthodox scientific verification.
But the gap will close.
VIVA LA MYSTERY!
Keith
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 00:35:32 (EST)
From: *<*...b
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: moo
Message:
rawat ridicules ANYTHING and his doing it about the new age
ideas is like a cow ridiculeing mooing.
All the trip he spouts is pure new age.
if you are inside then 'you are god'.

But that part is superceded by the additional burden/nonsense
that HE is more superiour god than you.

In both instances he is wrong.
by the way, check out one of your below posts for a response.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 02:32:47 (EST)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: *<*...b
Subject: moo and baa
Message:
I read the post below Bill,
Yes....there is a problem with anyone who plays avatar ....
a problem with inflation...; we are all potentially conscious
beings...meaning we can all individually realise our unity
as conscious beings and at the same time realise our unique
individuality. Jung referred to this as a process of
individuation...a process of discovering ones own selfness.
Maharaji seems to have fallen into the same trap as many
teachers have and do.
To be empowered...yet to realise ones unity...and to FEEL
HUMBLED in such a way as it manifests through ones words
and actions.
Imagine being in Maharaji's position.
Really...what would you do? I have asked myself this.
Actually I've had a little taste. I've been in a position
where others have looked to me as a teacher relating to
students. (quite a few times).
I have studied my own inner response at such times.
Such opportunities have offered me a great chance to learn
about myself, as well as others.
I could have abused the position I was in by playing the one
who knew .
But I didn't wan't to play that game.

' Welcome everyone. I always find these situations interesting. You don't know me and I don't know you...and yet I am supposed to be the one who is going to teach you something.
We all have come into this situation with certain preconceived ideas and expectations. You may all have images about me.
But I love to enter into situations like this with a really open slate. I am more interested in what we have in common than what we don't.' And so on and so on.
In other words , I personally desire to break down the barriers that seperate us.....not to homogenise (excuse my spelling) us ...but to link us together by way of a mutual realisation of our common bond.
This is what Maharaji purports to do too.
But I perceive he plays the game in such a way that actually
perpetuates the gulf between Him and us.
And this I feel is his achilles heel.
It is the greatest challenge for the ego.
To achieve success...to achieve status and yet to be humble.
A cow in conflict with its moo....or a sheep wanting to be a lion...
I'm not sure what is the most distressing.
I'll try to stand alone like a tree ....and trust the Creator.
Regards to you Bill,
Keith
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 03:15:28 (EST)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: everyone
Subject: Mysteries...hard core
Message:
Of course , in reference to my post above ,
I would care to add that those are my impressions.
I could be wrong. I could be wrong about a lot of things.
And so could you.
Which brings me full circle....back to the mystery.
Why a mystery?
Because if I really ask myself....HONESTLY...'what do I
know?' I once again confront a silence.
And this silence is at the very core of the mystery.
For in this silence I yet exist.
It is not a void...devoid of every attribute....because I am there!
My presence is there(or here). In-fact THIS PRESENCE is the only
'thing' that is really substantially here.
This is HUMILITY!
The mystery is that from out of this Silence ...THIS PRESENCE...all emerges.
This I realise.
Now , there are many here who will think that these words are pure spiritual bunkum....and will think that I have got it all around the wrong way.
And I will think they are the ones weho have it around the wrong way.
And the twain shall never meet it would seem.
And beyond this eternal DEBATE a whisper asks...'what do you really know?'
I love this MYSTERY. I love that I must trust a POWER that is
my creator...and that the CREATOR lives through me ....and
not that my punny little ego is self-creating itself.
This is the hardcore MYSTERY of all MYSTERIES.
The SPIRIT breathes and lives through me ...and I BELIEVE OUR MUTUAL DESTINY is that the SPIRIT will live, speak and act through all of us.
The TRUE SAT-SANG...is a mystery...that speaks in tongues..
not a foreign or ancient tongue , but in the tongue of a
divinely inspired soul.....that is our destiny ..to realise we all are god-selves....expressing in the rainbow colours , not of some sentimental new age hype ,but rather as a symphony ...a harmony...a multi-coloured coat of many fabrics.
It is the buried DREAM of all dreams.
Okay, I've had my release.
My little cosmic orgasm.
My little big bang!
Keith ( who is really everyone and no-one ....what a mystery).
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 11:27:17 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: Keith
Subject: Mysteries...hard core
Message:
Dear Keith,
I have had a hard time with god, growing up in a violent and Catholic home. I have developed my own personal brand of spirituallity but as I posted earlier to x, I realized although I didn't mention it there that I am on the edge of reconsiling with that life force as divinity/love for me. Until now I have known it was what made me a spiritual being but viewed that force as more a factual thing than love/divine. This is a big step and your post helped me clarify my feeling on the matter, at the moment! Thanks.
Robyn
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 15:23:28 (EST)
From: carol
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: Keith:Mysteries...hard core
Message:
Keith, You sound just like me in my more inspired moments. I am also conscious of how it can look crazy or like just so many words, parroting many so-called new age folks. Sometimes I KNOW-WHAT-I-KNOW and sometimes I KNOW-I-REALLY-DON'T-KNOW. So really it does remain for me a MYSTERY!!

I also have been in a position of being a teacher when I facilitated some inipi (sweat lodge) ceremonies and prayer circles. I felt the need to convey, as truly I as could, the traditional beliefs and practices of the Lakota people. It was a big responsibilty and very humbling. I did not feel I could do it justice, since I was really just a student and novice myself. I am also aware that some Native people do not feel these ceremonies should be performed by wasitchis (whites). The belief was that the owning and proper use of a chanupa (sacred pipe)imparts both respect and responsibilty. My personal belief is that the only sacredness of any object is that which is infused by the believer. The value of rituals seems to be to remind people of that which they aspire to be or know.
carol
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 09:47:14 (EST)
From: Dairy man
Email: david.studio57etc
To: *<*...b
Subject: moo
Message:
Bill; I can't read your posts in the Lynx web browser if you begin the FROM field with an asterix. For some reason it cancels the whole message and just leaves the title.

Could you possibly try the next one with an alphabetical character at the start of the FROM field. Then I'll see if I can read it. Thanks. I can read it in IE by the way but other people using Lynx will have the same problem.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 07:07:43 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: Jim and big M.
Message:
Keith, thank you for sharing some of your very interesting OBE experiences here. It was very interesting to read. You must have a special ability or gift. I am fascinated by people's real experiences. It's completely different to saying what they are, what they mean, etc. My new age teachers said that where the feelings are blocked up is where the psychic abilties are. I am no longer afraid of my feelings (if I still have any) but just of expressing myself in a straightforward way, for example protecting myself from other people walking all over me. I know that's got little to do with what you were talking about here. But sometimes I feel other people trying to 'invade' me as though they want to eat me psychically. I used to have a dream when I was a little girl that witches were eating me.
Sounds yukky, hey? But whatever I've got, I don't seem to be able to use it for my own benefit. And I have a very nasty streak as you may have noticed, which is my last resort defence mechanism (foul language and all).
How do you protect yourself psyhically? Do you relate to anything like that?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 10:45:32 (EST)
From: Dairy man
Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com
To: Keith
Subject: Even I'm sceptical
Message:
Keith; even I am a bit sceptical about your floating over to London from Zurich and trying to move a case. If you can do this kind of thing on a regular basis wouldn't it be easy to prove to people that you were having OBEs?

While I am sceptical I wouldn't discount it completely but would need further evidence to be convinced and surely, wouldn't such a thing be easy to prove? Like how about floating over to Jim's house and telling us the colour of his wallpaper.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 11:31:54 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: Dairy man
Subject: Even I'm sceptical
Message:
Dear Chedd,
You'll always be Chedd to me dear. Don't you think Keith's call to his mom is proff? Why doesn't that influence you at all?
Robyn
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 11:10:33 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Keith
Subject: Keith
Message:
Dear Keith,
When you were sleeping and have an out of body experience has it ever been like you thought you were sleeping but you could see but knew your eyes were shut yet couldn't open them? Maybe I have had this experience!
Robyn
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 17:08:42 (EST)
From: bftb
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: Hey Keith-'Sleep Paralysis'?
Message:
Reading the first part of your post here reminded me of something.Several times in my life I have had an experience when laying down for an afternoon nap.Just as I'm drifting off to a light sleep/nap,or just as I'm 'waking' from a light nap, this bizarre thing has happened where I was 'awake' but 100% unable to move.It is not exactly 'awake' but sort of like a moment in between waking and napping-very hard to articulate the experience but it is most definately frightening because I just can't move.Also,in that bizarre moment I have had the strangest experiences.As an example,one time there was this cat in the room,I saw it plain as day.What seemed to happen between my consciousness and this cats consciousness is not explainable or easy to articulate but the moment that 'moment' was over and I could move again it was clear that there was no cat in that room.It was a hallucination( sure as hell seemed real in that strange moment though) and I have since learned that there is in fact a scientific term for what I have experienced called 'sleep paralysis'.Apparently the bizzare experiences I've had in those moments of transitional consciousness are quite common.

Our brains are 'the last frontier'.We know very little about what they're capable of.Perhaps as time goes on we will have a full all encompassing understanding of how everything works(doubtful though)and will find out that all sorts of 'cosmic experiences' while very real are not 'supernatural' at all but are in fact organic consequences of having this brain and of being the particular organism(s) that we are.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 00:45:50 (EST)
From: Peter
Email: None
To: bftb
Subject: brain disconnect
Message:
bftb--

Your post reminded me of one of my 'mystical' experiences. I had gone short on sleep for a number of days running and went to bed early exhausted. My sister called late. The phone was right by my bed, I answered, I talked to her but what I said was complete gibberish. Which isn't that weird, but what is weird is that I was completely conscious of the fact that I was babbling, & I could understand and remember what she was saying, but I could not in the least control what I was saying. It felt a LOT like an 'out-of-body' experience, of which I've had one. They're both some sort of brain disconnect.

So, the OBE--I'm not necessarily saying that what I perceived as an out-of-body experience actually involved 'ME' being out of my body. Maybe it did, maybe it didn't. But if it did, SO WHAT? That is the question that no one in the thread has addressed.

One aroma that has wafted quite strongly through this and other threads is the 'glamour' of mystic experiences, showing how 'special' the person who experiences these things is. I feel that it is quite easy and tempting (and destructive and divisive) to get on an ego trip about it, which is more or less exactly the same thing that Maharaji has done.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 10:11:17 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: Peter
Subject: brain disconnect
Message:
Dear Peter,
If there is OBE's or other mystical realities, So What? If everything is in existance through unique combinations of atoms which contain + and - charges, etc, So What? Both are damn wonderous. Why is it an ego trip? It is for those of us who experience them. To me they are a gift, they keep me out of the hum drum in the same way I was in the throughs of a similarly wonderous reality when I was pregnant! It only matters if it touches your heart or mind or emotion, if it puts you in awe of the possibilities of this existance!
Can you see what I am saying?
Robyn
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 10:03:13 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: bftb
Subject: Hey Keith-'Sleep Paralysis'?
Message:
Dear bftb,
Our brains are 'the last frontier'.We know very little about what they're capable of.Perhaps as time goes on we will have a full all encompassing understanding of how everything wrks(doubtful though)and will find out that all sorts of 'cosmic experiences' while very real are not 'supernatural' at all but are in fact organic consequences of having this brain and of being the particular organism(s)that we are.

I am not sure if you are in agreement with us here or not. I feel this is part of the equation, isn't it wonderous that we, as human beings can experience these things! :)) Is a connection to the divine creator, as Keith thinks, I don't know but it is fun, exciting and makes my life so much more engaging and interesting.

When I read about your not being able to move and that upsetting to you, I think Keith may have mentioned a similar feeling. It reminded me in addition to my account of feeling awake and seeing but not being able to open my eyes and getting stuck there and not really getting into the experience itself, and I don't know if it is a OBE or not but also I would be moving but I was almost like dead weight.
Robyn
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 13:54:28 (EST)
From: bftb
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Hey Keith-'Sleep Paralysis'?
Message:
Robyn,

When I had the good fortune of seeing a documentary that dealt with 'sleep paralysis' I was blown away because finally there was an explanation for that strange experience that I have had.I'm not sure if it's the same as what you describe but maybe you'd find researching 'sleep paralysis' something interesting for you.

I agree with you about the wonder of being human.The wonder of being a creature who is here experiencing life.I am in awe of the very fact that anything exists at all,and that I'm here for a bit to perceive it.Whether or not there is in fact a conscious creator behind it or not;the very fact that existence exists is in and of itself an infinitely fascinating phenomenon!

To me anyway.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 15:11:17 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: bftb
Subject: Hey Keith-'Sleep Paralysis'?
Message:
Dear bftb,
Thanks, I'll check it out, put it on my list.
Robyn
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 10:49:32 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: Peter
Subject: Defending Jim! (?)
Message:
Hi, Peter!
Your subject title certainly did catch my attention. I think a lot of my post to Jim above was just my going off, like he does to people when he feels it. I thought about doing it a while before I did. It is good for me to just let 'er rip. It is not my usual way and a big part of my healing work right now, I think. I am always aprehensive about Jim's response to me, but I don't think he'll see this one, and he has always been gracious in the past. I was at the same job for 15 hours yesterday and was getting punchy. Sometimes it takes being exhausted for me to not put up walls and react more from that raw place inside.
I certainly don't think the Big BM is god!!! I have felt strong messages from some experiences but mostly I think they just illustrate the capabilities these human forms are capable of. Just a reminder of the vast possibilities within each of us. To have found a few who share these experiences and a few others who don't but see their value and possibilities is a very positive experience for me. These expereinces are part of my spiritual connection but I do not give credit to there presence in my life to anything but my connection to the spirit within and which I believe also surrounds me.
Thanks for writing to me Peter, you helped me clarify my position with Jim on this.
Robyn
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 03:35:03 (EST)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Challenging science and Jim
Message:
Robyn, you said,
' Keith, I just want you to know how happy I was when I saw your Mysteries thread and this one. Maybe this isn't the place to discuss this but it feel so right to me, as I said above.'

Well Robyn I do feel that we are a bit in a minority here.
And also that it takes a little courage to say to me what you do. Because there are some who would cringe.
But I too am happy to be able to share such matters...such mysteries...any mysteries....and am happy that you are happy about that too. Don't I know how to talk in circles?
But I happen to love circles too , or curves or spirals or whirlygigs....for they balance all the straight lines.
I shall continue with my mystery type threads as long as you or anyone else responds enthusiastically.
Why should this forum not be an appropriate place to share such things.
After all it is an anti-maharaji site , not an anti- life site.
And life for me is wonderfully mystical.
Blissfully mystical! Although I too get lost in the myriad of thingies that fragment my appreciation .
But at the end of the road I know what is really importent.
And it seems so do you....brave-heart!
Warm feelings from me to you.
Keith.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 13:15:49 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: Keith
Subject: Challenging science and Jim
Message:
Dear Keith,
God I feel so emotional toward so many I've connected to here but right now I wish I could invite you and Mirabai(got it eh!) over for dinner this weekend and Chedd and his family while I am imaginging the impossibe. Oh well. It would be fun to share this stuff over dinner and laughing though.
I will continue to enjoy and respond to these discussion as this is a big part of what is for me.
I posted about possible OBE's I may have had and not realized and I just want to amend that post with one more thing. Always when I have had that experience, I got stuck with the fact that although I was awake and could see, I couldn't open my eyes. All my efforts would go there and now I think I wasted those experiences. I will try to do things differently if it happens again.
When my dear friend's son drowned at the age of 7 in 1990, I dreamt about him often. In every dream he came to me on my deck in the summer, while I was shoveling snow off a walk, etc. In the dream I was conscience of the fact that Neil had died and I would go to him and become too emotional with that thought, that he was visiting me but was not really 'back'. Each time when I awoke I would be annoyed with myself for not letting him get a word in edgewise and I worked in my waking times to train my dreaming self to stay under control because I felt that he was trying to speak to me. One moring apon awakening from one such dream I swore to Niel that I would not do that again, that I WOULD listen to him the next time for sure. He has never come back to me in a dream. I have longed to meet him there again and feel like I stopped the process. I say this because of considering to work in my conscience state to alter that possible OBE and maybe that is not the way to deal with these things. Maybe they just work on there own schedule and who am I to think I can mold any of it to suit me.
Robyn
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 17:05:28 (EST)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Response to Robyn
Message:
Dear Robyn,
Perhaps Mirabai and I could visit you astrally but I doubt if we could eat too much !
But seriously, it is a positive thing that's happening when people who haven't actually met...who have only read each others words , can feel close , can begin to trust each other a little, can feel free to share whatevers inside that needs to get out.
I marvel at this technological age we live in that allows us such communication devices as the internet.

As for OBE's, yes Robyn, I often experienced laying in bed fully awake but with my eyes shut....and unable to move my body or call out or open my eyes.
Throughout my childhood this would happen.
And I would focus all my energy towards trying to open my eyes until I'd have to give up in exhaustion....except a couple of times I actually eventually forced myself to open my eyes....
or as I now understand forced myself back into my body.
As far as having control over my OBE's , I never have been able to exercise control from my waking state.
These experiences have their own agenda , so to speak... or are goverened by sub-conscious needs.
I'm sure there are Yogic practices that enhance conscious control but I've never invited an OBE ; they just happen.
That's enough for now as I wan't to respond to Judex too and probably a couple more before having to take my car in for repairs (bummer) .
See you later, alligator,(just felt like ending on a poetical note).
Keith
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 17:17:46 (EST)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Response to Robyn-2
Message:
Sorry Robyn,
I did want to respond to about your experiences .
The feeling that you wasted opportunities.
I often felt that way too.
Fear gets in the way. Or just inappropriate responses to what is happening. I feel that's totally natural and to be expected.
Ones consciousness needs time and experience , just as in normal waking consciousness to adapt to the circumstances and the enviroment. But I feel no experience is wasted in the long run.
And eventually experiences lead to a breakthrough....a type of peak experience...that has probably happened as the result of many lesser , more mundane experiences. A bit like a child learning to walk.....bingo , one day the child takes that first unaided step....what a peak experience!!
And it is importent to say to anyone reading this post that OBE's and all other out of the ordinary experiences are natural ; they are only mystical in so far as science has not been able to prove them.
When I am experiencing so-called paranormal capacities I am experiencing them as if they were totally normal except those times I struggle with them.
Keith
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 10:18:35 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: Keith
Subject: Response to Robyn-2
Message:
Dear Keith,
Thanks. God wouldn't that be great if we could all get together like that! Yes, I feel very fortunate to have found this place. I had time I was stuck at a job where I no longer had anything to do but needed the money so now I see it as just another of these wonderous experiences. I have been giving the time to be here and grow in this group of special people from all over the world! Very Powerful!
Robyn
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 08, 1998 at 14:47:46 (EST)
From: x
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: answer for Katie
Message:
Hi Katie,
I was very young, obviously so my memories are limited.It was in L.A. I dont remember for sure the mahatma, but I think it was Rajeswar. I think it was an exception, actually more like a mistake. I got the whole thing, I remember it taking forever, and being scared of the glazed expressions on everyone, including my father, who somehow got me in. I remember everyone emptying their pockets of money, and being ashamed of having none to contribute. I guess they cut me some slack for being 7.By the way Katie I dont mean to play favorites here, but I enjoyed your journal very much.

Take Care, x
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 08, 1998 at 15:11:02 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: x
Subject: answer for Katie
Message:
Dear x,
That's amazing (really!) You must have gotten knowledge in 1973 and 1974, and I thought that they were pretty strict about things like how old people were at that point.

There haven't been hardly any children of premies posting on here (although there are a lot of ex-premie parents). I only remember one person clearly: 'STUDENT', whose mom was a premie, and who got knowledge at age 13 in 1982 - thus she was approximately your age. She was still really into being a premie.
I also know someone who does not post on here who was the child of two premies. She had to wait six or seven years to get knowledge when she was 13. She said her mom gave her a birthday card when she got knowledge - because it was her spiritual birthday, I guess - and it had a picture of a scary monster on it that was supposed to be her mind!

Thanks for the answer -
Katie

P.S. Regarding my journeys entry - there are two Katie's in the journeys section. I am Katie (Mischa). So you might have not read the right one! The other Katie's entry is great, but she doesn't post on here.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 08, 1998 at 12:15:59 (EST)
From: carol
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Read articles!
Message:
I just re-read some articles from the Site Map of this Ex-Premie. Org site. I encourage lurkers and regulars to read all the information and letters here, not just the Forum. But realizing that it might take a good deal of your time, I'd like to suggest two articles for now, titled:

Free Knowledge:The Rejected Aspirant
Second Thoughts: An Aspirant Escapes

carol
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 08, 1998 at 17:55:20 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: carol
Subject: Read articles! offline
Message:
Once you've loaded the pages, you can browse through them off-line !
You can even copy them, and paste the texts in your word
processor ...

There is a lot of incredible stuff in those articles !
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jun 07, 1998 at 17:27:17 (EST)
From: friend of x
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: The Living Master
Message:
I just read The Living Master, quotes from guru maharaj ji, DLM Inc. 1978. Thought I'd share a few comforting passages.
p.32 M says he isn't here to sell oranges.
p.30 If I haven't got the right skipper for my ship, I've 'had it'
p.38 If I try to attain peace and tune into K just by going back to nature and not through the guru it won't work and I have wasted my life.
p.50 perfect concentration on a perfect thing is called meditation.
p.71 For this gift we can never, of course never thank enough.
p.78 The reason why we are here...why the earth is still rotating... goes right down the drain when we shut our door on guru maharaj ji.
p.95 By GM's grace, I have a nice house that has been provided to me.
Think I'll check out some And it is divine's if I can find them andpick out some choice morsels!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 08, 1998 at 09:13:02 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: friend of x
Subject: The Living Master
Message:
Dear friend of X -
The stuff you quote is typical seventies satsang by Maharaji. If you quoted it to a premie today, he/she would say that 'it's not like that anymore', and something to the effect of how M was influenced by his mother or other negative people back then. Of course, M still says the same stuff, just phrased a little differently!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 08, 1998 at 12:04:48 (EST)
From: Joy
Email: Bluebirdd@aol.com
To: friend of x
Subject: The Living Master
Message:
Dear friend of X, thanks for your input, good to hear from new voices. Here's some choicer morsels from my old photo album, put together in the 1970s:

'Oh Guru Maharaj Ji, you have the power and the strength, You have the love and compassion. Have mercy on one tiny soul. Don't let it wander. If it takes to be under your Feet, then that's where I'll be. What I want to become is Your Wish. What You don't want me to be is Your Wish. Someday, somehow, will You please find it in Your heart -- if You ever do, Guru Maharaj Ji -- to save me from this world? Take my mind away. Take me and put me into Your Feet where You really are.'
. . .

'You can never repay Satguru ever in your life. But there is one method that you can repay -- give devotion.'
. . .

'One should dedicate one's life to the Lotus Feet of the Perfect Master of the time. Dedicate. Then He will take you to that right place. Because you have dedicated your life you are no longer anything and you belong to him, so he is responsible for taking you.'


I'd be interested to know if any premies can come up with a few quotes where he either retracts these type of sayings or says something which negates them. Has he watered it down for Knowledge Lite for the 90s? Or just left this style of satsang hanging out there in the ethers, to be revived when the time suits him? (perhaps when he gets low on money or self esteem?) Premies?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 08, 1998 at 13:15:21 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Joy
Subject: The Living Master
Message:
God Joy, those quotes are amazing. His whole trip is so anti-self-esteem. Interesting how the devotee describes his or her soul as tiny, and how a devotee is willing to be under his feet. And that the goal is be become something that isn't ANYTHING. [And what is that later, asking to be put into his feet, because that's where Guru Maharaj Ji really is? What the fuck is that about?

And the blatant prayer to be saved 'from the world' and to be lobotomized ('take my mind away') is just too, too sick.

To think I read and listened to such idiotic statements and thought nothing of them. And you're right, how does a premie ever reconcile those blatant statements with BM's new, knowledge lite that he is offering these days, while at the same time maintaining that it's the unchangeable truth.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 08, 1998 at 20:27:01 (EST)
From: Joy
Email: Bluebirdd@aol.com
To: JW
Subject: The Living Master
Message:
Yes, Joe, those quotes are pretty indicative of the 70's mindset that was foisted on us by BM. The reason I had them in my album is because they were the quotes that inspired me the most at the time. Pretty sad, eh? Looks like I bought it hook, line and sinker.

You know, towards the end of my 'service' with DLM, when I used to work on the early versions of Elan Vital magazine, one of the things I got to do was pick out the quotes which would go with each satsang spread in the magazine, you know, which lines would get to be blown up bigger in a box. I really used to love doing this, I would take the galleys of type off to a quiet place and really relish going over every line one at a time, trying to find the thing I found most inspiring. Then someone told me, towards the end of my time there, that Maharaji said that the person who picked the quotes was 'unconscious'. This really hurt, as I did this job so lovingly and with such care and attention. It felt like a kick in the teeth. I had spent about eight years of my life by this point dedicating it totally to him, most of it in full time service, and this was the thanks I got?

All I have to say about it now is that it wasn't the person PICKING the quotes who was unconscious (she was just brainwashed and naive), it was the person SAYING them who was (and is) unconscious. If BM would get off his high horse and stop tooting his own horn and actually say something of spiritual significance, then maybe we'll be able to pick a 'conscious' quote at some future date.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 08, 1998 at 20:44:31 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Joy
Subject: Joy-The Living Master
Message:
Dear Joy,
All I have to say about it now is that it wasn't the person PICKING the quotes who was unconscious (she was just brainwashed and naive), it was the person SAYING them who was (and is) unconscious. If BM would get off his high horse and stop tooting his own horn and actually say something of spiritual significance,
then maybe we'll be able to pick a 'conscious' quote at some future date.


PERFECT!!!!!
Robyn
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 00:04:34 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Joy
Subject: The Living Master
Message:
Then someone told me, towards the end of my time there, that Maharaji said that the person who picked the quotes was 'unconscious'.

Joy, what did he mean by 'unconscious?' Did you think he was implying that you were in a coma or something?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 00:21:02 (EST)
From: *<*...b
Email: None
To: Joy
Subject: The Living mOnster
Message:
In all those years I never not once heard him or heard of him
saying something to someone that wasn't a critisism
or some condencending thing. It is ALWAYS that you are not
his equal. there is no such thing as moveing out of the ranks of
the servant.
christians say you have to forgive but there is no chance
I will ever do that. I may let go after his trip is demolished
and he is dead, but not forgive.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 00:45:38 (EST)
From: JW
Email: joger02@aol.com
To: *<*...b
Subject: Slouching Towards Obscurity
Message:
Bill, how about if he just slumps, recedes, slides, fades, declines, slouches, or drifts into obscurity? Would that suffice? In my opinion, that it the most likely course for the ex-Lord of the Universe.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 01:04:26 (EST)
From: Joy
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Unconscious
Message:
I think the term 'unconscious' was used in premiedom in general to mean not paying attention, not with it, or possibly not meditating enough. (not in a coma!) I think having followed BM for almost ten years is pretty similar to being in a coma, actually, but I knew exactly what the term meant at the time. Not sufficiently spiritually advanced to know what they were doing, something of that nature. A real insult. It's interesting to note above that BM never complimented anyone, he always has to put you down. This is the tone I noticed in his voice that I found so offensive I had to get up and leave when trying to attend that program eight years ago, and it's still there in his current talks, from watching that video. He sneeringly insinuates that all you ignoramuses are just NOT with it, and you have to REALIZE and WAKE UP etc. etc. ad nauseum. But always this implication that you have NOT gotten whatever it is that needs to be figured out or 'realized'. Requiring, of course, even more devotion, surrender and 'gratitude' that he, the great and realized one, has even condescended to place it before you in the first place.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 12:39:27 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Joy
Subject: Unconscious
Message:
I was just kidding, Joy. I know exactly how that word was used and what a put down it was. I was just commenting that it IS a ridiculous word to use to describe someone, unless they really ARE in a coma. Your description of the insult BM was hurling is right on, and very insightful.

I have never heard BM compliment anyone either, although I have heard him scream criticism at people who were trying to serve him. He could be a real monster to people at times, especially when you consider how vulnerable they were to him.

I also react to that condescending tone of his, especially when he talks about he 'people of the world' and how stupid and confused they are. This kind of talke also has effect of making the premies feel they are superior to those people, without BM actually having to compliment them. I really believe that one of the principal elements of a cult is that the members get to feel spiritually superior to people who haven't gotten the master's gift. My opinion on this has been reinforced by the thick layers of spiritual egotism you hear from some of the premies who have posted on the forum.

But he also often had a disparaging tone towards premies too. In retrospect it is truly amazing that we would fall for the bait that if you receive knowledge, you have 'it' and will be happy. What a lie. BM has to continually imply that the premies are confused and so aren't really happy until you have more _______(the blank is filled in by whatever meaningless word BM uses here, including, in the old days, devotion and now, gratitute, love, understanding, etc.), all of which require the 'master,' in some unexplained fashion, of course.

I specifically recall that satsang he gave at the Kissimee swamp (while sitting in his electronic throne with the outdoor air conditioning) in which he lambasted the premies for even thinking they even had the right 'to even look at Guru Maharaj Ji.' The outlandish ego of that man is beyond comprehension.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 01:12:55 (EST)
From: *<*...b
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Slouching Towards Obscurity
Message:
I guess if I can come to believe that he is forever on the
decline. I know Mark said it is only our _________.
I forget the word, but that it is only our __that makes us
think he is any possible big player.
I am willing to accept that he is right, but look at the
comment by the above poster who went to the program
and thought the first stuff was ok. He can dispense years
of that and have the ranks grow.
Perhaps I should finish takeing a few steps and then I will
be able to relax my stance. The few steps are things I thought to
do to oppose him. yeah, that will help.

I like your slouching idea.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 07:23:46 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Forgiveness
Message:
I don't know if visualisations are anyone's cup of tea...this is an interesting one for forgiveness. You imagine the person, should you wish to forive them, on a stage, in the spotlight, and then imagine them getting everything they ever wanted. Then imagine yourself on that stage, and the same thing for you.
Interesting experiment? (BTW, you can imagine them being hurt, killed, mutilated first if you want to - but to complete this exercise correctly, children, you must actually end up by letting them have the goodies too).

Also, I really have a strong urge to ask, has anyone read the Frog and Toad stories? There's a beautiful one about Frog getting famous, and Toad getting smaller and smaller in the audience. Anyone know those stories?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 07:31:58 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: The Second Coming
Message:
on your wonderful 'slouching towards obscurity' image...

...'and what strange beast, his hour come round at last,
slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?'

Do you know that poem? At first, I was thinking, wow, how amazing...then I realised you probably know the poem...

can you post it if you have a copy, or anyone else?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 08:27:12 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Judex
Subject: Slouching towards Bethlehem
Message:
The poem is by W.B. Yeats - 'Slouching Towards Bethlehem' (I really like the poem too).

Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the center cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.

Surely some revelation is at hand;
Surely the Second Coming is at hand,
The Second Coming! Hardly are those words out
When a vast image out of Spiritus Mundi
Troubles my sight: somewhere in the sands of the desert
A shape with lion body and the head of a man,
A gaze as blank and pitiful as the sun,
Is moving its slow thighs, while all about it
Reel shadows of the indignant desert birds,
The darkness drops again; but now I know
That twenty centuries of stony sleep
Were vexed to nightmare by a rocking cradle,
And what rough beast, its hour come forward at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 12:52:49 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Slouching towards Bethlehem
Message:
Thanks, Katie. Yes, it's a great poem. Also, Joan Didion wrote a great book by the same name in the 70s.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 13:59:29 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Slouching towards Bethlehem
Message:
Yes, it's a great book (as are all of hers, IMHO, but that one, 'The White Album', and 'Democracy' are my favorites). In fact, I knew the poem was the epigraph of that book, so I got it from my copy.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 00:18:00 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: Katie and JW
Subject: Slouching towards Bethlehem
Message:
Thanks for the info about the book. I will seek it out.
That poem has always been so intrigueing to me. One of the best.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 09:11:40 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Selena
Subject: Slouching towards Bethlehem
Message:
'Slouching Towards Bethlehem' and 'The White Album' are collections of Didion's essays from the late sixties and early seventies. Very highly recommended & should be easily found as used books (check Gerry's connection: www.powells.com). The title story in 'Slouching towards Bethlehem' is about Haight-Ashbury in 1967 - when things were starting to fall apart.

P.S. If I could have anyone's writing style, I'd pick hers.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 12:47:32 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: The Book of Common Prayer
Message:
Another great Didion book, is 'The Book of Common Prayer.' I agree, Didion's writing style is the best. I saw her speak with her husband one time (Christopher Dunn, also an author) and she said that the most important part of that book was 'the white spaces.' I couldn't have agreed more. The writing is so tight that what isn't said is louder than what is. (If that makes any sense.) Also she wrote a great, short book on El Salvador about the war and destruction going on there in the 80s.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 08, 1998 at 18:04:42 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Joy
Subject: The Living Master
Message:
Joy and all,
You may not have seen my talk about a spirit releasment my friend had done on me but they found a cowboy in my foot.
Hey, Jim and Chedd, maybe I AM the new SAT GURU!!!!

Take me and put me into Your Feet where You really are.'

I knew I had important stuff to do in my life! Damn!!!
Send donations to: you already have my address. I'll even personally write to thank you!
Robyn
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 07:52:13 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Footwear
Message:
Robyn
my nick name at college, the brief time I paid it a visit, was 'footwear' because I crashed out on the bed once after drinking cheap Marsala still wearing my shoes!
Can I be your devotee?
These boots are made for walkin....
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 13:19:41 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: Judex
Subject: Footwear
Message:
Dear Judex,
I just can't believe I have found the real purpose of my life here on the forum! I guess I'll have to let people kiss the cowboy in my foot! :)
My dad sleeps instead of doing drugs to avoid things, mainly my mother! Anyway he use to sleep on the bed spread which infuriated her. She would flip and say if he was going to bed why couldn't he just pull the covers down. He would say to her, I haven't gone to bed for the night, can't you see I still have my socks on?!
Robyn
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jun 07, 1998 at 16:29:57 (EST)
From: Friend of a Premie
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Serious question: what harm?
Message:
I have a good friend who has been attending gatherings regularly for a couple of years. She has not 'received Knowledge'. She goes to see Maharaji speak on weekends about 4-5 times per year and she also goes to see videos at the local library. She is a reasonably successful and functioning member of society and rarely talks about Maharaji unless asked about it.
But when I have asked her about it, she does seem defensive. She claims that it costs nothing to get in and that she would have to search out somebody to give money to. Is that true?
Also, why does she pronounce the name mur-ah-ji instead of 'Maharaji Ji'?
She does seem to be in a better mood when she comes back. She never says anything philosophically that doesn't seem in accordance with common sense--and harmless, even. So I'm not sure I understand what the real harm is.
One more thing: she used to refer to him as a 'spiritual advisor'. About two months ago, she started referring to the gatherings as 'going to church'.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jun 07, 1998 at 17:13:43 (EST)
From: x
Email: None
To: Friend of a Premie
Subject: Serious question: what harm?
Message:
I know for a fact, after looking through various materials here at my mothers house, that your friend is almost surely lying about not even knowing where to send money.I have discovered several thank you cards expressing gratitude for recieved donations.

BM quote-
'Your generosity and the consistency of your support , no matter how large or small, lays the foundation for continued growth.
Thank you once again.

also- Those wishing to participate in supporting Maharaji's work may do so by making donations to Elan Vital, a non profit organization.
Checks should be sent to:

Elan Vital
P.O. Box 190959
Miami Beach FL
33119

For some reason the largest system of denial I have encountered among premies revolves around the amount and consistency of their monetary cotributions to BM's opulent lifestyle.

Break the denial good luck x
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jun 07, 1998 at 20:38:48 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: Friend of a Premie
Subject: Serious question: what harm?
Message:
The harm is subtle and like a snake in the grass. I kept saying to to myself all those years: - What's the harm? I didn't give money - almost never. then I started to take stock. I took paid vacation 2 to 4 times a year to travel to the BM. Those were times I didn't spend on vacation with my husband, or for that matter on myself. Those were dollars I didn't spend helping my young adult sons as they struggle with rent and living. HOw much? I'd estimate 2 thousand a year and that's a low estimate.
Then there were the video and tape purchases.
and the video events, again time and money. A few afternoons a month but those few afternoons in a busy schedule mean something. BUT the things I find the most harmful are the intangibles;
the way a person starts to look at life, at relationships, at the mind and the world. The lack of caring and responsibility. The spiritual arrogance. The denial. Those are the true harms and they don't show up right away.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jun 07, 1998 at 14:26:27 (EST)
From: x
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Anaheim
Message:
Here's something interesting I just found, apparently there is a program coming september 18 in anaheim CA for those with K or about to receive it. Included in the flyer is this:
' Children 8 years of age and older who have a genuine interest in Maharaji's message and who are able to remain attentive for the duration of each event are also invited to attend. Parents are requested to read Children attending Events before reserving a seat for a child.'

This seems to be a new low even for BM, I feel very sorry for any kids indoctrinated into a devotional worship cult by their parents especially this close to the millenium at a time when so many people are empowering themselves in so many ways.

Do the words child abuse mean anything to anybody!

Another thing I found in my mothers BM things is an address where you can supposedly send BM mail.

Maharaji
P.O.Box 6110
Malibu CA 90265 if any one cares. as if he would reply

Interesting that Seattle is cancelled I know my mother aready has tickets.Oh well I guess she can visit the space needle. or maybe BM will refund her airplane tickets.How many other premies will be very inconvienced by this.I dont think my mom even knows its been cancelled yet, BUMMER !

Later x
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jun 07, 1998 at 14:40:29 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: x
Subject: Anaheim
Message:
The odds of the big M refunding those plane tickets are about as good as me ever getting back into that crap.
I can hear the justifications now.
'it was a test' 'lila' blah blah

I agree, it actually frightens me that they are letting children back into those things. I think its because he's losing so many of his flock and not enough new ones are coming. ICK!!!!!!!!!
I am getting more pissed off as I think about it.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jun 07, 1998 at 21:21:17 (EST)
From: Cheddar
Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com
To: x
Subject: Anaheim
Message:
The place for children is playing and learning about the world and developing relationships. I think this is a new low. I don't want to sound cynical but I see a distinct paralell between this and the Hitler Youth movement in Germany in the 1930s. Hitler realised that if he indoctrinated the children, who are very impressionable, then he would have them for life. Near the end of his Third Reich when he was short on cannon fodder, he turned to his Hitler Youth and had young boys going out and getting themselves killed for the Fatherland.

Yes, Maharaji's got the message. Yet them young and they won't be able to leave him - they'll be perfectly indoctrinated.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 08, 1998 at 13:19:17 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: x
Subject: Read what?
Message:
Parents are requested to read Children attending Events before reserving a seat for a child.'

Is this what the flyer really says? Parents are supposed to 'read' their children, or 'read to' their children? Read what?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 08, 1998 at 14:14:10 (EST)
From: bftb
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Read what?
Message:
Hello JW. When I read that post I took it to mean that there must be some regulations pamphlet called: 'Children Attending Events' that EV would like premies to read if they're planning to bring kids to programs.

However that was just my take on it so I have no idea if this is in fact the case or not.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 08, 1998 at 14:28:22 (EST)
From: x
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Read what?
Message:
JW
I'm sorry I was unclear about that.Apparently there is some booklet or pamphlet titled 'Children And Events' available somewhere that should be read by parents wishing to indoctrinate their children.I'm afraid to even guess what the material expresses.I really saw this though,and i think this is extrtemely disturbing.It should be illegal to put kids through this kind of abuse, but I guess christians and other religions should'nt have exclusive rights to put the fear of god in impressionable young children.
x
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 08, 1998 at 14:33:40 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: x
Subject: Read what?
Message:
You're right. It is disturbing. I wonder if we could get a copy of the 'Children and Events' publication. I also wonder how a parent can tell is his or her kid is really 'interested' in BM, or is acting interested because that's what he or she thinks the parent wants, and/or wants to BE WITH the parent and go to the program.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 08, 1998 at 14:58:52 (EST)
From: x
Email: None
To: everyone
Subject: Read what?
Message:
I'm sorry again, I'm new to computers and I can barely type.
The pamphlet is titled Children Attending Events, to be exact.Speaking personally I can assure you that any childrens motivations to get K are highly suspect. This is a TRAGEDY in the making. How can this even exist?
x
Return to Index -:- Top of Index