Ex-Premie.Org

Forum III Archive # 11

From: Jun 7, 1998

To: Jun 15, 1998

Page: 1 Of: 5


Judex -:- romance addiction (long post) -:- Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 09:38:46 (EST)
__Scott T. -:- romance addiction (long post) -:- Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 10:37:59 (EST)
____Katie -:- romance addiction -:- Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 10:57:00 (EST)
______Scott T. -:- romance addiction -:- Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 11:12:12 (EST)
________katie -:- romance addiction off topic -:- Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 11:19:06 (EST)
__________Scott T. -:- romance addiction off topic -:- Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 12:14:26 (EST)
__________Scott T. -:- romance addiction off topic -:- Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 12:41:09 (EST)
____________Katie -:- romance addiction off topic -:- Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 13:54:42 (EST)
______david f. -:- Question to Kate -:- Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 14:00:52 (EST)
________Scott T. -:- Romance -:- Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 14:12:30 (EST)
________Katie -:- Question to Kate -:- Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 15:58:01 (EST)
__________Robyn -:- Question to Kate -:- Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 12:15:09 (EST)
____david f. -:- to scott: roman. addiction -:- Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 14:19:23 (EST)
______Scott T. -:- to scott: roman. addiction -:- Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 14:37:57 (EST)
______Robyn -:- to scott: roman. addiction -:- Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 12:21:24 (EST)
________Scott T. -:- to scott: roman. addiction -:- Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 13:19:57 (EST)
__________Robyn -:- to scott: roman. addiction -:- Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 17:49:54 (EST)
________Stephen Harris -:- to scott: roman. addiction -:- Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 14:33:22 (EST)
__________Robyn -:- to scott: roman. addiction -:- Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 17:52:52 (EST)
__________Scott T. -:- to scott: roman. addiction -:- Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 18:41:23 (EST)
____________Robyn -:- to scott: roman. addiction -:- Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 19:05:09 (EST)
____Selena -:- romance addiction (long post) -:- Sun, Jun 14, 1998 at 02:14:53 (EST)
______david f. -:- re: abusive relationships -:- Sun, Jun 14, 1998 at 10:42:32 (EST)
________Robyn -:- re: abusive relationships -:- Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 12:26:23 (EST)
______Scott T. -:- To Selena -:- Sun, Jun 14, 1998 at 14:05:26 (EST)
________VP -:- I wasn't abused either -:- Sun, Jun 14, 1998 at 14:47:03 (EST)
________Selena -:- To Scott -:- Sun, Jun 14, 1998 at 15:13:10 (EST)
________Judex -:- Scott - Idyllic childhood -:- Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 08:32:57 (EST)
__________Scott T. -:- Scott - Idyllic childhood -:- Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 09:34:12 (EST)
________Robyn -:- soap story -:- Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 12:29:55 (EST)
__________Scott T. -:- soap story -:- Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 12:39:52 (EST)
____Judex -:- to Scott -:- Sun, Jun 14, 1998 at 04:45:11 (EST)
______Judex -:- to Scott part 2 -:- Sun, Jun 14, 1998 at 08:13:50 (EST)
________seymour -:- to Scott part 2 -:- Sun, Jun 14, 1998 at 11:04:24 (EST)
________Katie -:- to Scott part 2 (anger) -:- Sun, Jun 14, 1998 at 11:25:40 (EST)
__________Judex -:- yo Katie (anger) -:- Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 06:18:11 (EST)
____________Katie -:- yo Katie (anger) -:- Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 11:39:07 (EST)
______________Katie -:- another book recommendation! -:- Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 12:31:28 (EST)
________Scott T. -:- to Scott part 2 -:- Sun, Jun 14, 1998 at 12:45:19 (EST)
________Peter -:- polite anger?? -:- Sun, Jun 14, 1998 at 13:34:37 (EST)
__________Judex -:- polite anger?? -:- Sun, Jun 14, 1998 at 16:31:04 (EST)
____________Peter -:- appropriate anger -:- Sun, Jun 14, 1998 at 18:36:57 (EST)
______________Judex -:- appropriate anger -:- Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 06:23:18 (EST)
__________Stephen Harris -:- polite anger?? -:- Sun, Jun 14, 1998 at 16:37:35 (EST)
____________Peter -:- inappropriate anger -:- Sun, Jun 14, 1998 at 19:08:49 (EST)
______________Scott T. -:- inappropriate anger -:- Sun, Jun 14, 1998 at 19:16:16 (EST)
________________Peter -:- inappropriate jest -:- Sun, Jun 14, 1998 at 19:39:05 (EST)
__________________Stephen Harris -:- inappropriate jest(longish) -:- Sun, Jun 14, 1998 at 22:56:20 (EST)
____________________Peter -:- good points -:- Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 00:33:11 (EST)
____________________Judex -:- to Stephen - loaf of bread -:- Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 06:32:32 (EST)
__________________Scott T. -:- inappropriate jest -:- Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 00:41:18 (EST)
________________Peter -:- P.S.--little guy -:- Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 00:03:19 (EST)
__________________Scott T. -:- The little guy thing -:- Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 01:11:09 (EST)
____________________Peter -:- The emotion thing -:- Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 01:40:20 (EST)
______________________Scott T. -:- The emotion thing -:- Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 02:44:09 (EST)
________________________Judex -:- The emotion thing -:- Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 06:50:29 (EST)
__________________________Scott T. -:- The emotion thing -:- Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 09:43:26 (EST)
__________________________Peter -:- What she said -:- Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 09:57:06 (EST)
____________________________Scott T. -:- What she said -:- Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 11:38:01 (EST)
________________Peter -:- foul called on Scott -:- Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 00:49:29 (EST)
__________________Peter -:- I take it back -:- Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 00:53:01 (EST)
____________________Scott T. -:- I take it back -:- Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 01:39:45 (EST)
______________________carol -:- Fellas, my 2 cents -:- Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 03:15:29 (EST)
________________________Judex -:- Good words, Carol -:- Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 06:52:02 (EST)
________________________Scott T. -:- Fellas, my 2 cents -:- Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 09:48:42 (EST)
____________________Stephen Harris -:- Shame -:- Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 15:18:43 (EST)

Judex -:- Handling freedom -:- Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 08:26:04 (EST)
__Iola -:- Freedom from Dogma -:- Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 09:46:46 (EST)
____PaulR -:- Freedom from Dogma -:- Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 13:49:31 (EST)
____Judex -:- Freedom from Dogma -:- Sun, Jun 14, 1998 at 05:03:17 (EST)
______david f. -:- Freedom from Dogma -:- Sun, Jun 14, 1998 at 11:06:05 (EST)

Mirabai -:- To Gerry -:- Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 01:43:11 (EST)

Keith -:- Response time -:- Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 21:50:43 (EST)
__Sir David -:- Response time -:- Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 22:26:14 (EST)
__Iola -:- Response time -:- Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 22:57:45 (EST)
____Keith -:- Response time -:- Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 23:59:27 (EST)
__bb -:- Response time -:- Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 14:30:53 (EST)

JW -:- Slit-His-Throat-Security -Guy -:- Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 19:12:47 (EST)
__Joy -:- Slit-His-Throat-Security -Guy -:- Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 21:48:54 (EST)
__Selena -:- Slit-His-Throat-Security -Guy -:- Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 21:56:09 (EST)
____Selena -:- Slit-Throat- selena on selena -:- Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 22:09:15 (EST)
______Katie -:- Slit-Throat- selena on selena -:- Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 22:20:57 (EST)
________Katie -:- And one more thing -:- Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 22:25:20 (EST)
__________Selena -:- And one more thing -:- Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 22:38:32 (EST)
____________Katie -:- And one more thing -:- Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 22:46:30 (EST)
____________JW -:- And one more thing -:- Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 01:57:57 (EST)
____________Scott T. -:- And one more thing -:- Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 10:12:26 (EST)
__________Iola -:- The Hurricane Festival -:- Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 22:41:39 (EST)
____________Katie -:- The Hurricane Festival -:- Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 23:16:03 (EST)
______________eb -:- The Hurricane Festival -:- Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 23:26:27 (EST)
______Sir David -:- Slit-Throat- selena on selena -:- Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 22:45:28 (EST)
________Katie -:- Slit-Throat- selena on selena -:- Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 23:23:19 (EST)
__________Mirabai -:- I agree Katie:Responsibility -:- Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 06:03:33 (EST)
____________Katie -:- I agree Katie:Responsibility -:- Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 10:48:20 (EST)
____________Scott T. -:- Something good about Maharaji -:- Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 10:49:55 (EST)
______________bb -:- Something good about rawat!!!! -:- Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 14:43:15 (EST)
________________Scott T. -:- Something good about rawat!!!! -:- Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 19:59:00 (EST)
__________Sir David -:- Where the blame lies -:- Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 08:30:24 (EST)
____________Katie -:- Where the blame lies -:- Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 10:45:08 (EST)
______________Mirabai -:- To Katie and David -:- Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 20:51:54 (EST)
______________JW -:- Where the blame lies -:- Sun, Jun 14, 1998 at 13:48:27 (EST)
________________Sir David -:- Thanks Joe -:- Sun, Jun 14, 1998 at 15:01:11 (EST)
__________________Katie -:- Clarification: Responsibility -:- Sun, Jun 14, 1998 at 16:41:32 (EST)
____________________Katie -:- and more clarification -:- Sun, Jun 14, 1998 at 16:56:14 (EST)
______________________JW -:- and more clarification -:- Sun, Jun 14, 1998 at 19:11:42 (EST)
________________________Katie -:- and more clarification -:- Sun, Jun 14, 1998 at 20:33:20 (EST)
__________________________Selena -:- and more clarification -:- Sun, Jun 14, 1998 at 20:45:51 (EST)
____________________________Katie -:- and more clarification -:- Sun, Jun 14, 1998 at 20:54:58 (EST)
________________Judex -:- Where the blame lies -:- Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 07:16:16 (EST)
__________________Judex -:- Blame...and yet again.... -:- Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 07:24:46 (EST)
______carol -:- Slit-Throat- selena on selena -:- Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 23:21:05 (EST)
______Rick -:- Slit-Throat- selena on selena -:- Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 01:40:39 (EST)
______VP -:- Slit-Throat- selena on selena -:- Sun, Jun 14, 1998 at 17:26:56 (EST)
____eb -:- Slit-His-Throat-Security -Guy -:- Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 23:18:36 (EST)
______Selena -:- didn't slit her throat tonite -:- Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 02:45:12 (EST)

Selena -:- re-entry -:- Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 18:45:28 (EST)
__Iola -:- re-entry -:- Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 18:54:37 (EST)
____Selena -:- re-entry -:- Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 19:05:05 (EST)
____Cheeseman -:- re-entry -:- Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 21:05:45 (EST)
______JW -:- re-entry -:- Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 02:05:35 (EST)
________Ched -:- That's lost on me -:- Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 06:22:55 (EST)
__________Katie -:- Velveeta off topic -:- Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 09:30:06 (EST)
____Jean-Michel -:- Leaving M and paranoia -:- Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 09:35:04 (EST)
______Scott T. -:- The Leaving Carrot -:- Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 21:22:30 (EST)
__Joy -:- re-entry -:- Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 22:34:34 (EST)
____Mark -:- re-entry -:- Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 23:22:39 (EST)
______Joy -:- re-entry -:- Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 23:36:06 (EST)
________eb -:- re-entry -:- Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 23:55:04 (EST)
________red heels -:- re-entry -:- Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 10:41:50 (EST)
__________Gerry -:- re-entry into M's cult? -:- Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 12:04:01 (EST)
____________Patty -:- re-entry into M's cult? -:- Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 13:15:37 (EST)
______________red heels -:- re-entry into M's cult? -:- Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 21:20:44 (EST)
__________Joy -:- re-entry -:- Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 12:18:56 (EST)
____________Judex -:- re-entry -:- Sun, Jun 14, 1998 at 05:34:11 (EST)

Mirabai -:- Confessions -:- Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 04:16:53 (EST)
__carol -:- Confessions -:- Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 04:39:30 (EST)
____Mirabai -:- Confessions -:- Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 04:59:22 (EST)
______Robyn -:- Confessions -:- Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 09:59:09 (EST)
__Cheddar -:- Confessions -:- Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 05:04:30 (EST)
____Mirabai -:- Confessions -:- Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 05:32:46 (EST)
____Mirabai -:- Confessions -:- Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 16:14:23 (EST)
__Mirabai -:- Corrections. -:- Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 05:59:18 (EST)
__Bobby -:- Confessions -:- Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 08:09:56 (EST)
____Mirabai -:- Confessions -:- Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 16:30:29 (EST)
______bobby -:- Confessions -:- Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 18:56:51 (EST)
________Judex -:- Confessions -:- Sun, Jun 14, 1998 at 05:26:42 (EST)
__Robyn -:- Confessions -:- Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 09:52:52 (EST)
____Mirabai -:- Confessions -:- Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 16:05:01 (EST)
______Robyn -:- Confessions -:- Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 18:03:07 (EST)
________Mirabai -:- To Robyn -:- Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 20:45:52 (EST)
__Katie -:- Confessions -:- Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 11:44:09 (EST)
____Mirabai -:- Confessions -:- Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 16:43:01 (EST)
____Mirabai -:- Confessions -:- Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 17:05:31 (EST)
__PaulR -:- Confessions -:- Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 16:19:23 (EST)
____Mirabai -:- Confessions -:- Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 16:53:27 (EST)
____eb -:- Confessions -:- Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 17:23:12 (EST)
____Robyn -:- Confessions -:- Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 18:05:21 (EST)
__david f. -:- a response to Mirabai -:- Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 21:20:58 (EST)
____Mirabai -:- a response to Mirabai -:- Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 20:40:47 (EST)
__bb -:- Confessions -:- Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 14:23:42 (EST)
____VP -:- Mirabai, Lonely posts -:- Sun, Jun 14, 1998 at 22:03:02 (EST)
______Mirabai -:- To VP -:- Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 07:19:27 (EST)
________Judex -:- to Mirabai -:- Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 07:53:05 (EST)
________VP -:- To Mirabai -:- Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 11:48:09 (EST)

Date: Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 09:38:46 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: Stephen & EB
Subject: romance addiction (long post)
Message:
wow, i only just found your replies in the inactive archive to some previous post about above subject. So glad I looked there, thank you also for an amazing discussion about raising children, eb and
Selena.

Stephen that was absolutely fascinating about the children fo alcoholic families. One reason, my dad was a pretty heavy drinker. He loved to hang out at the 'mess' as they called it, mum said he should never have married. He was a pilot and flying instructor during wwii/korean war and it was 'part of the lifestyle', Ive been told. Mum was definitely the one who kept the family together; no wonder she was always so pissed off (and nasty). Dad when boozy was all good cheer and total relaxation. He seemed loving in contrast to mum.

I will read the website you posted; sounds really good. Just a small thing: i think I had my first inkling of doubt about M when I found out several of the premies who were telling me about it had problems with their fathers/families. I think there is definitely soemthing in taht. One who was beatiful, full of light, glowing etc admitted she had tried to kill herself she had so much trouble with her dad. It just make me go 'red light on' for a moment.

I'd love to go to a video adn ask everyone in the room whether they had a parent who had an alcohol problem.

Also thanks very much to you and eb for sharing about the romance addiction. 1. I relate to it being about magical things, also. That was my whole childhood- reading books, wanting to fly, being kind of 'false' in real life.
2. eb all I long for now is to be with a partner who I love, and I don't give a damn about sex any more but I am sure it would be good, once I actually got to know and love the man himself as a human being and not a solution.

thank you, I have got a lot to think about now.
What a relief to read some really open sharing - everyone must be exhausted by now!
PS Stephen - yes tomorrow is another day. If you saw some of my days in the past you wouldn't recognize me now. I am still dealing with the results of it - yet I feel more whole than I ever have. Just keep going, that's what I told myself. Just don't give up on yourself - because you had the ability to get yourself into wherever you are - you also have the ability to leave it behind. Sometimes I used to visualise going to a stream and washing in the stream. Sometimes I would go for a walk & see where it took me. This is using some of that 'fantasy' ability but in a useful way. - to try and 'dream' a future path.
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Date: Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 10:37:59 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Judex
Subject: romance addiction (long post)
Message:
Judex:

I was only 'half kidding' about the nasty girl thing. The pattern I fell into was that I'd get into these intense relationships with women who had been seriously abused in childhood. I mean, really abused. These women had serious things to work out, and had a kind of subsurface rage that I thought would never get directed at me because I was such a 'white hat.' Oops. I came to identify romance with all these mixed up feelings, thinking erroneously that I had some role to play in their recovery. I'm thinking now that I fell into this pattern after BM, and I had not really confronted him and taken back my life. I just sort of 'let it ride' but still had this feeling that someone else was the conductor of the train.

I've taken a long hiatus from relationships because I just couldn't stand to go through that pattern anymore. Too gutwrenching. I think I would now regard a woman in that condition as an abuser, and would not be so lenient. I think I can trust myself to be a bit more self-protective in those situations. People who take responsibility for their own anger are a different matter entirely. I can tell the difference now. (Well, most of the time.)

-Scott
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Date: Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 10:57:00 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: romance addiction
Message:
Scott -
I have played the 'nasty girl' to several 'nice guys'. It's not a comfortable position. (I'm sure being the 'nice guy' isn't either!)

Have you ever heard about the one-up/one-down positions in relationships? Many (most) people will habitually choose relationships in which they can be in one of these positions - whichever is more comfortable to them. (I definitely tend to be a 'one-down' person - sounds like you like to be 'one-up' - i.e. 'the good guy'). Neither position is inherently better or more virtuous. Learning about this concept has really helped me understand some of the big problems I have had in past relationships, and has helped me very much in my present relationship.

Katie

P.S. This pattern is described well in the book 'We'd Have a Great Relationship if it Wasn't for You'.
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Date: Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 11:12:12 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: romance addiction
Message:
Katie:

OK OK. I need to get 'The Guru Papers' and 'We'd have a good...' I'm just lazy. Will see if Borders has them.

-Scott
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Date: Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 11:19:06 (EST)
From: katie
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: romance addiction off topic
Message:
Scott,
I am pretty sure that Amazon.com or Powells.com has them. Then you won't even have to go out of your apartment! Or even turn off your computer!
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Date: Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 12:14:26 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: katie
Subject: romance addiction off topic
Message:
Katie:

Ordered the Guru Papers from amazon.com, but the relationship book is out of stock at the publisher (which may mean it's no longer in print). Apparently some heavy competition in that area. Will check Powells though.

-Scott
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Date: Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 12:41:09 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: katie
Subject: romance addiction off topic
Message:
Katie:

I ordered the Guru Papers from Amazon, and the other book from Powells. Now that I think of it, I should probably have ordered both from Powells to save some shipping and handling, but didn't think ahead. Anyway, haven't removed my ass from this seat in two hours. Think I'll take a run.

-Scott
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Date: Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 13:54:42 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: romance addiction off topic
Message:
Congratulations, Scott! I'll be really interested to hear what you think about the Guru Papers. I hope you like the relationship book too. At least it will provide some food for thought.
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Date: Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 14:00:52 (EST)
From: david f.
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Question to Kate
Message:
Katie, thanks for your post. I'm not sure what you mean by one up/one down. For example, would 'one up' mean taking a more controling or more dominant postion in a relationship? Or would it be taking a more (seemingly) moral or upright postion? As in playing nice guy to someone who is abusive, or caretaker to someone who is alcoholic?

It's also interesting to me that the language and feeling found in devotion to BM is so often compared to romantic feelings. But feeling like you're on a romantic high dosen't mean you're not in an abusive relatinship -- at least that's been my experience.

best wishes, david f.
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Date: Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 14:12:30 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: david f.
Subject: Romance
Message:
David:

But feeling like you're on a romantic high dosen't mean you're not in an abusive relatinship -- at least that's been my experience.

Zactly!

-Scott
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Date: Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 15:58:01 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: david f.
Subject: Question to Kate
Message:
Hi David -
To me, 'one-up' means taking the position of being the more moral, upright, healthy, and all-around superior person (as in your second example). I looked it up in the book I recommended to Scott (and which I highly recommend - 'We'd Have a Great Relationship if it Wasn't For You' by Bruce Derman), and the author agrees with this definition. Also, one person isn't necessarily in the one-up position ALL the time - people can trade places, or compete for the one-up position (I'm sure you know couples like that), or can even compete for the one-down position. But many people feel more comfortable being in either the one-up or one-down position most of the time, and pick partners who complement this.

I hope this explains a little bit more.

Katie
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Date: Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 12:15:09 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: Katie
Subject: Question to Kate
Message:
Dear Katie,
Thanks for the title and author, I will have to get it!
Robyn
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Date: Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 14:19:23 (EST)
From: david f.
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: to scott: roman. addiction
Message:
Scott, your post was eerily familar to me. About a year ago I ended a relationship with a woman who had been repeatedly sexualy abused by her father. During our relationship she would often wake from reoccuring nightmares and sometimes disassociate (I've never been around someone who did this.).

Though I thought I was clear about not saving her, in looking back I see that I still fell into a familar pattern of losing myself in the relatinship and of being with someone that was extremely critical of me.

I too have taken some time to find myself again, which I think maybe indicates that there is some underlying basic sanity that I need to reconnect with.

best wishes, david f.
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Date: Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 14:37:57 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: david f.
Subject: to scott: roman. addiction
Message:
David:

Thanks. Nice to know someone else has been through this. Best wishes.

-Scott
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Date: Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 12:21:24 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: david f.
Subject: to scott: roman. addiction
Message:
Dear David F.,
God, I don't know if you noticed the new list server group that Gerry started so we can discuss mystical experiences off the forum, I think there is enough of us with this problem who are working on it right now to start another site!!!
Good luck to all of us who are now trying to work through this issue, myself included!
I just remember something a therapist told me know that no matter what work you do on yourself that not being in a relationship is no better than being in a bad relationship. That they are opposite sides of the same coin and what you need, I guess is a different coin all together. I know the work I've done and continue to do is very valid and important but I am also conscience of the fact that none of this work had been through beta testing and the jury will be out until I am in a comitted relationship for a block of time. I am working on that reality now. I feel like I am all but on the verge of 'testing the waters'.
Robyn
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Date: Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 13:19:57 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: to scott: roman. addiction
Message:
Robyn:

You know, sometimes a really wish I had a relationship with someone who was not colorblind. I just bought a $400 jacket thinking that it would go with everything, and found out that I now have nothing to wear with it. Sheesh! The trials of being chramatically challenged!

-Scott
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Date: Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 17:49:54 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: Scott T.
Subject: to scott: roman. addiction
Message:
Dear Scott,
I thought only men were color blind! My older daughter just went clothes shopping with an ex-boyfriend because he asked and she knows he CAN'T pick out clothes for himself! Men! :)
Robyn
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Date: Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 14:33:22 (EST)
From: Stephen Harris
Email: mulcyber@pacbell.net
To: Robyn
Subject: to scott: roman. addiction
Message:
Oddly, I have heard that being in no relationship is better
than being in a bad relationship.
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Date: Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 17:52:52 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: Stephen Harris
Subject: to scott: roman. addiction
Message:
Dear Stephen,
I think that is true the point is that not being in a relationship doesn't get you to a place of knowing how to choose a good relationship. For me there is/was a lot of inner work but to actually put it to work is just as unsteady as before I did the work. Hopefully it will help but until you try it you just don't know if you were successful and what you need further work on.
Robyn
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Date: Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 18:41:23 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Stephen Harris
Subject: to scott: roman. addiction
Message:
My luck, I'd get into a bad relationship with a color blind woman (1 in 100 vs 1 in 10 men).
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Date: Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 19:05:09 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: Scott T.
Subject: to scott: roman. addiction
Message:
Dear Scott,
Now that's positive thinking!!! :) I am getting into that smile, have you noticed, to counter balance my post to D@avid and Anon. :(
Robyn
Can't you take it back?
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Date: Sun, Jun 14, 1998 at 02:14:53 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: romance addiction (long post)
Message:
Wow Scott. Amazing we never got together. I definitely fit your description of subsurface rage-type. Hopefully I have grown through that. I am sorry that you got hurt by this type of thing. It's a sad fact about abuse, how it keeps perpetuating itself until somehow the cycle gets broken.
I can't help but wonder about this site. There is so much honest opening up about these issues. It would be easy to draw the conclusion that those who involve themselves in cults have come from abusive situations or are attracted to abusive situations.
That would seem to be the case but you know, it seems to me that it is the case with people I talk to all over. I mean, if I use work as an example I could say that peopple in the computer field are for the most part victims of abuse. what I am trying to say is, it would seem that more people have this background that one hears about. Maybe people just open up to me, I don't know.
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Date: Sun, Jun 14, 1998 at 10:42:32 (EST)
From: david f.
Email: dkfreed@whidbey.com
To: Selena
Subject: re: abusive relationships
Message:
Selena, I think that many of us that came to BM were (at least at the time I was involved) young, and somehow felt lost, though not exclusively because of abusive history.

I have been involved with people from abusive backgrounds, and though its easy to point a finger and cast blame, I struggle with being more honest with myself, and asking: what unresolved issues of my own brought me to be in a relationship with an abusive person?

best wishes, david f.
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Date: Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 12:26:23 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: david f.
Subject: re: abusive relationships
Message:
Dear David,
Have you come to any conclusions on that, what brought you to be in relationships with abusive partners? Just curious. In my work on 'becoming more human' I, for to many years tried to figure out all the why's in my head which I did but found that that didn't help me one ioda to change my behavior. It was only when I turned the process into something deeper, more intuitive and spiritual that I started effecting changes. I learned that just asking for healing goes a long way along with critical thinking, actually is, for me, the missing piece of the puzzle.
Good luck again.
Robyn
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Date: Sun, Jun 14, 1998 at 14:05:26 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Selena
Subject: To Selena
Message:
Selena:

I think it would be a real stretch to say I came from an abusive background. My childhood was almost idyllic. I had plenty of friends. The problems I had would have been Tom Sawyer-like. My father probably hit me a total of two times in his life, and it was clear both times that he was extremely reluctant and self-conscious about it (basically spankings). My mother soaped my mouth once, when I called my sister a name. Since I went to a military prep school, which practiced hazing, then I suppose you could call that abusive. My girlfriend from that time certainly thought so, and still thinks so. But I don't really think I got involved with Maharaji in order to resolve any of this stuff. I just found it attractive. Big whup. A matter of bad taste, or a bad decision, or seduction... whatever.

You make a good point that there may not be any explanatory pattern at all, at least not on the gross level of personality. A book I have on cults by Tobias and Lalich makes this point quite explicitly, that there is no special pattern at the level of personality, and that everyone is vulnerable. I can't figure out why this is so hard to accept.

-Scott
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Date: Sun, Jun 14, 1998 at 14:47:03 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: I wasn't abused either
Message:
Scott,
I wasn't abused either. I don't even have any military hazing to complain about:-)

I think that all people DO have a basic longing for something in their life. Maharaji just exploits that very natural feeling within human beings. He says things that make sense for some people no matter what their background or experience is(somewhat-- at least AT FIRST). Maybe that is why he is attractive to a wide range of people and not necessarily one particular group.

BTW, I don't believe that anyone can really find one answer to this longing. I think that many things within our lives working together can satisfy, fill, and fullfill us. For me, knowledge is not 'the thing' that is going to satisfy this and neither is devotion to a person. (Neither are drugs, alcohol, sex, or anything else that one could be addicted to.) Just my opinion, VP
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Date: Sun, Jun 14, 1998 at 15:13:10 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: To Scott
Message:
My reference to the 'cycle of abuse' meant that though you yourself had not come from an abusive backgroud you involved yourself, for some reason with a woman (or women) who had.

And so the cycle continues in that in some way by being involved with these women you experienced the abuse, either directly from them as they tried to find resolution the only way known to them, by acting out. Or maybe you just 'knew their pain' and had to deal with that on a daily basis.

I do agree there are no proven demographics re: the type of person who will join a cult. I recently say a dateline about Gabriel of Arizona. In Sedona, Arizona, a VERY wealthy community - this nut is managing to convvince middle class married people to move to his compound and let their children be raised by the commune, and legally sign over their possessions. It's amazing. Makes BM look mild by comparison except for one thing, M made way more money. Gabriel didn't take advantage of the 60's and 70's so he has fewer sign up, but they have more money.
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Date: Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 08:32:57 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Scott - Idyllic childhood
Message:
Scott, sorry dear (as Robyn would say) but I can't let this one RIP. You say almost idyllic childhood. To me, that word use is pretty signifcant (like something you want to ignore but can't). I am afraid of doing this post, I just want to say that. But...

BTW, can you say a swear word now? Like just casually, fuck or something? Does the child in you ever get out? Don't you think there are other forms of 'abuse' than overt ones?

You may or not be even remotely interested in any of the above. I just say it because in rings my bells - for example the green fields of my childhood in boarding school - so idyllic, you know? Dad a hero, we were comfortable, middle class, I had a pony when I was 14.

It's just when you look at what happened in your adult life you may wonder about it (or not). The things that happened - being in a cult - you say it was just a bad choice or bad taste. I hope you did have a beautiful childhood and are a happy, fulfilled man. I am just asking the question, not to spin you out but because I don't want you to think people take refuge in bad childhoods or families. Before I went to New Age Seminars I was certain mine was fine. It's just that I wanted to get out of it all the time and couldn't sustain a happy relationship.

Do I just live in a too-small world and can't open up enough to see the health in others? Maybe, but to me your sharing indicates that your childhood was probably not as blissful as you say. However, it is yours, and I say the above with respect and care.
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Date: Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 09:34:12 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Judex
Subject: Scott - Idyllic childhood
Message:
Judex:

I said 'almost idyllic' because I don't think anyone had an idyllic childhood. Mine came rather close though. I did have to drive truck and mind the harvester during harvest. No fun getting that itchy stuff down your neck. And I 'bucked bales' quite a bit, too. Hated that. Farm life isn't much of a vacation sometimes. But, I don't think my parents were abusive at any point. They just didnt't understand me. You know how that goes. When I got drunk and wrecked the car they thought that was a moral lapse of some kind. Imagine!

-Scott
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Date: Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 12:29:55 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: Scott T.
Subject: soap story
Message:
Dear Scott,
When I was under 6 we lived in a city and I had no qualms about picking up dirty, stepped on, chewed gum. My mother would wash my mouth out everytime and everytime I would spit on her side of the bedspread until all the soap was out of my mouth. Made me feel less a victim. :)
Robyn
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Date: Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 12:39:52 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: soap story
Message:
Robyn:

That story is hilarious. It shows how subjective the notion of victimization can be, especially for children. I have a Jordanian friend who thinks all children are victimized and oppressed. He tells these great stories about an uncle who used to hate him because he was so spoiled and indulged. He was indeed an horrific youngster, and I somewhat sympathize with the uncle. I think they eventually made up.

-Scott
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Date: Sun, Jun 14, 1998 at 04:45:11 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: to Scott
Message:
Scott,
Thank you for sharing that about yourself. I feel touched that you have opened up about it.
I guess the truth about myself is I just don't/didn't want to deal with some of the hurts I received in past relationships. Just being honest with myself lately I see that.
It seems so helpful to be able to open up - it helps to see what's still there - what's still unfaced.
That's what Ive been finding here. And because other people share their own issues I don't feel that I am in a parent/child or teacher/student relationship with the other people here.
I know we are all here for ourselves but It's such a fantastic learning opportunity.
And I do care about many people here, it hasn't taken long.
I liked you right from the start but I don't know why.
(not because I wanted to abuse you!) So there!
Maybe it's because I like men I feel inferior to? (then they abuse me) Who cares? If it's there to understand, I will understand it one day I guess. In the meantime, I enjoy the differences between us all as much as the similarities (which are amazing, I am finding).
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Date: Sun, Jun 14, 1998 at 08:13:50 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: Judex
Subject: to Scott part 2
Message:
Scott I hope you aren't offended by me saying I liked you - what I meant was that I found the discussions eg about infinity, to be very interesting. My daughter and I had an argument today about communication, she thinks academics are not good communicators because for example if you need to speak to primary school children you should speak on their level. I said education is good because it teaches you to think and use your mind. I don't know I think we were at cross purposes.

However amongst all that stuff (whether I like 'academic' stuff because it is a challenge and a stretch, or whether I just want to play the 'dumb blond' I don't know). You probably didn't want to know all this anyways.

But I do need to ask for clarification on the 'angry' post when you said we can express anger effectively precisely because we have the capacity to self-reflect.
I just wondered if you could clarify what you meant a bit more - do you mean you think we should reflect on our anger before expressing it? I just wanted to understand what you were saying. I wish I knew a healthy way to express myself when I feel something strongly (sometimes it's white-hot) but without attacking others. I think this is very imortant. After much reflection, I see it's true that Iam really angry with a part of myself, not Keith. I saw something of myself in his post (maybe pre-therapy) and it made me so mad because I got so sick from that sort of thinking. It also reminded me of channelled books, the expression he used.

Yet I like Keith, and I think he has stood up for himself at times when I was cowering a bit. I think that now in retrospect too. We all have the capacity to be abusive especially if we come from abusive families where we were taught we mean little or nothing.

So there's a child's book which I remember said 'anger is a way of letting you know someone is treading on your garden' which I like.
But how do you ask them politely to get off your garden?
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Date: Sun, Jun 14, 1998 at 11:04:24 (EST)
From: seymour
Email: seymour_t@rocketmail.com
To: Judex
Subject: to Scott part 2
Message:
Hi Judex,
Just wanted to add my spoonful and say that I agree that the forum is a great method of education ( amongst other things) and much better that the Master/Desciple set up.
I wonder if anyone else knows what is best for us as individuals?
By indulging in these 'dialectic' discussions and aguments we can arrive at the truth and know that we have got there ourselves rather than being led blindly.
I also wanted to say that although there may have been premies who came to the knowledge because of previous abuse there are also many who were and, in my case still am, basically lost in the hostile environment that is the world. What is wrong about religious cults is that they prey on the fear and insecurity that lurks within us all - offering a cure when, even though the leaders/members believe it themselves, it is only a placebo.
The only real cure comes when we take responsibility for our own self development and come together as equals to support each other.
All the best,
Seymour.
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Date: Sun, Jun 14, 1998 at 11:25:40 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Judex
Subject: to Scott part 2 (anger)
Message:
Dear Judex -
I hope you don't mind if I answer this too. You wrote:
I wish I knew a healthy way to express myself when I feel something strongly (sometimes it's white-hot) but without attacking others. I think this is very important. After much reflection, I see it's true that Iam really angry with a part of myself, not Keith. I saw something of myself in his post (maybe pre-therapy) and it made me so mad because I got so sick from that sort of thinking.

This was (and is) a big problem for me. I have been able to express anger all my life (even though I got shamed for it - I just HAD to), but I am still working on appropriate expression of anger. I thought you did pretty well in your posts to Keith, actually!

The thing I try to do is to use 'I' statements instead of attacking the other person - in other words: saying 'I feel angry because you did X and here is why' instead of 'You are a @#$%!' (Of course, sometimes calling a person a '@#$%!' IS the only thing to do! I don't think that's what you intended with Keith, though.)

Hope this helps a bit. I am still working on it!

Katie
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Date: Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 06:18:11 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: yo Katie (anger)
Message:
Thank you Katie. I sometimes wonder if practice might help - I don't mean on someone smaller or feeling worse than yourself but with an equal where somehow you could just go through it and they continued to engage you and no-one walked out. I mean just to see it end and die, and still feel safe. However I believe I have read anger is a 'go away' energy - it makes others leave (or want to).

The other night my ex came around, as I said he has been back to the ashram. We hardly ever see each other because I abuse him verbally (the last few times anyway) - he has a way of getting me mad that not many people can do. Why was I saddled with this man, I ask myself? As I felt my anger rising (my daughter was asking him why he went to the ashram, and he had opened my CPU to help me re-install the 256 colours which he lost last time he helped me with my computer. Let's face it, why don't I just try to do it myself? It's pathetic - and the worse part is I have been told by councillors that we have to stay 'friends' for the sake of our daughter. Sometimes it feels like abuse to even talk to him, I hate him that much. I don't understand it.

That sort of anger is definitely 'go away'. I guess in that case I should get the message I am trying to give myself about how I really feel about my past with him. I was standing there telling him 'you installed my new version of office in your PC and installed your old version in mine!' and I thought - that's what happened when I met you! (and it was all because I thought I needed him).

So big rave over - god I sound like a bitch when I read that but I'm still going to post it.
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Date: Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 11:39:07 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Judex
Subject: yo Katie (anger)
Message:
Hi Judex -
You are right that practicing appropriate expression of anger helps very much. The only situation where I've found this to be possible, however, is with a mediator (a disinterested third party). My husband and I went to pre-marital counseling for over a year, and our counselor really helped us learn how to communicate and express anger towards each other. We used to replay our fights for her, and practice saying things in a better way. This is how I finally learned to quit hurling accusations and to make statements about the way I feel instead (I still have NOT perfected these skills!).

About your ex - I know what you mean about 'exes' making one more mad than anyone else! I think it's a really common phenomenon. It's sort of like attraction turned upside down or inside out. It does sound like you have a lot of unresolved issues with him, and that he isn't the type who is going to help you resolve them!

I have to say though, that I do agree with your therapist in that you need to at least try and be civil to him (not sure about 'friends') for your daughter's sake. I am assuming that your daughter loves and cares for him. However (I don't have kids so have never been in this situation) I realize that sometimes even civility is just not possible.

Your rave was OK with me, BTW. I have definitely been there too.

Take care,
Katie
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Date: Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 12:31:28 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Judex
Subject: another book recommendation!
Message:
Hi Judex -
I know...I read too much... (We have a TV but don't watch it). But here is a book that I really liked. I usually don't like 'self-help' books because they don't offer much help, but this one does (IMHO anyway). It is called The Dance of Anger by Harriet Goldhor Lerner. The subtitle is 'a woman's guide to changing the patterns of intimate relationships', but I think the book would be helpful to men as well. Actually, I heard about it from my husband - he read it first.

It's not just about couples - she also discusses anger towards mothers and fathers, and in families. One of the most interesting concepts she describes is that of overfunctioning and underfunctioning of emotional expression in relationships. In other words, in any kind of intimate relationship one person tends to express more of any kind of emotion. For example, the wife will express most of the anger in a marriage. If she stops doing this, then her husband has to start expressing his own anger. This concept was very helpful to me in my relationships with both my husband and my family.

Anyway, I think you'd like the book (if you haven't already read it. She has written several other books, but this one is the best, IMHO.
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Date: Sun, Jun 14, 1998 at 12:45:19 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Judex
Subject: to Scott part 2
Message:
Judex:

Blonde, huh? I'd have guessed... well anyway, I am gratified that you like me and hope it has nothing to do with feeling 'inferior.' In my experience that sort of disequlibrium fosters resentments. I certainly think you express yourself well, and have some valuable ideas. I feel that my unresolved issues about Maharaji played a role in past relationships, and if things had been different I'd have either been able to make them work, or to get out with fewer scars. I was not clear.

Re:
But I do need to ask for clarification on the 'angry' post when you said we can express anger effectively precisely because we have the capacity to self-reflect.

I don't think you can expect yourself to always reflect before becoming angry, or that it's healthy to censor yourself while you're angry. It's more like you establish this ritual or habit of self-reflection after a bout of anger. When the issues are still fresh, you can decide what part is valid and what part is just infantile. That shows maturity. That habit would have the effect of keeping you from expressing anger exploitatively, and it would probably help limit the damage to a relationship. Of course, most abusers are remorseful afterwards, so it probably depends on the quality of the self-reflection. They usually say something like 'I didn't really mean it.' without taking responsibility for the consequences and actually altering behavior. It sort of reminds me of Bryn Hartman with her feelings of inferiority, insecurity and big mood swings.

The other part of what I was saying is that people who appear to be always angry are not very effective at making points. They tend to get tuned out as being non-discriminating. I don't really feel I know all that much about this stuff though. Just sort of speculating.

-Scott
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Date: Sun, Jun 14, 1998 at 13:34:37 (EST)
From: Peter
Email: None
To: Judex
Subject: polite anger??
Message:
Judex--

I am working on learning to express anger and my take on it at this point is that it is by nature NOT polite. If you want to ask someone to get off your garden politely, that's fine. But it either means that you're not feeling anger or that you're suppressing it.

And my take on the function of anger is not to let you know that someone's treading in your garden, but to ASSIST you in getting them out of your garden. In a broader sense, to assist you in getting them to stop unacceptable behavior toward you or others. If you keep the anger internal, it does no good at all, but if you express it it can help you to get what you want or need. It makes people pay a lot more attention to what you are saying than they would otherwise (for example, if you were being polite).

Actually, now that I think about it, there are more-or-less accepted ('polite') ways of expressing anger, such as a steely-voiced request, that WILL get the other person's attention and increase the odds of getting what you want or need. But this stretches many people's definition of polite (including my mother's, which is why I'm still working on expressing anger--didn't learn how at home).

So I say, 'Go ahead! Express anger when it's appropriate!' It feels good and it works well to do what it was designed to do. And though you realized that some of the anger you expressed toward Keith was re-directed from anger toward yourself (making it inappropriate), I think some of it really was toward Keith and what he was saying and how it could affect people and was very well and clearly expressed. And it probably worked well to get Keith's attention and get him to think about what he had said.
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Date: Sun, Jun 14, 1998 at 16:31:04 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: Peter
Subject: polite anger??
Message:
I suspect directing the anger (inappropriately) at some one rather than the ideas expressed or the principle may be the flip side of playing 'helpless' and getting other people to do things for me or be my master and take responsibility for my soul.

'I am on a lonely road and I am travelling
looking for something what can it be
o the jealousy, the hate is the unravelling, it's the unravelling
and it brings out all the worst in me...'
(Joni Mitchell)
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Date: Sun, Jun 14, 1998 at 18:36:57 (EST)
From: Peter
Email: None
To: Judex
Subject: appropriate anger
Message:
Judex--

My own view is that it is quite appropriate to express anger toward a person who you feel is currently treating you or someone else in an unacceptable way. I know that it can be difficult to do that and easy to feel that you were 'out of line' in expressing anger (this is a message that many of us get, and in my opinion an unhealthy one). To feel that you should have expressed your anger toward the idea and not the person, for example.

In my earlier post, I talked about the function of anger. This is an idea that I got from a book called 'The Emotional Hostage,' which I would recommend. It basically talks about the entire range of emotions and what their function is and how to express and use emotions appropriately. The idea that emotions have functions and that you should use them in that way really struck a chord with me--it makes a lot of sense.

So with anger, the function is to get the attention of the person who is acting unacceptably and get them to change their action. I accept this idea, so to me the idea of expressing anger toward an idea doesn't make sense. It's a person who expressed the idea, a person who is the source of any harm caused by the expression of that idea, and a person who might be more careful what they say next time if confronted by anger this time.

And I'll say again that I found your expression of anger to be, in that instance, clear, fair, and inspirational. Although I have thought about expressing anger a lot, I'm still not much good at actually doing it.

As far as Joni and jealousy and hate, I think they're legitimate emotions with their own legitimate functions (when expressed appropriately), but not nearly as important as anger. And yes, I agree with you that anger can be expressed inappropriately (see my response to Stephen), it just doesn't seem to me that that's what you did.
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Date: Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 06:23:18 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: Peter
Subject: appropriate anger
Message:
Thank you Peter - that was most supportive and I feel much better about it.
Much better. Sometimes it's a matter of sorting out when it is okay, isn't it, because otherwise it is like being a horse with the bit always between the teeth and the martingale on (it makes them arch their necks and look pretty but the poor things can hardly see).
Sounds like a good book - I will look out for it.
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Date: Sun, Jun 14, 1998 at 16:37:35 (EST)
From: Stephen Harris
Email: mulcyber@pacbell.net
To: Peter
Subject: polite anger??
Message:
I am not sure that this has been mentioned. One problem with
anger is letting it build up so that a small transgression
detonates a bomb from oneself. It seems like it is often
right to say something the first time. Anyway, I said it again.
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Date: Sun, Jun 14, 1998 at 19:08:49 (EST)
From: Peter
Email: None
To: Stephen Harris
Subject: inappropriate anger
Message:
Stephen--

I think you're right on target, and I haven't seen anyone else say what you said. To me, there's only one situation where anger is inappropriate, and that's the situation that you're talking about--the anger actually originates from a completely different situation than the one where it's expressed. I went through this A LOT with my ex, and I instinctively knew that there was no use in changing the behaviors that she blew up at, because I was sure that she was actually mad about something else. After we broke up, she admitted this was true. If she had been able to express anger appropriately, then the things that she truly considered unacceptable behavior I might have known what they were and been able to change. In her case, I'm pretty sure that most of her anger wasn't felt toward me at all, but toward her parents (this ties in with earlier threads on childhood abuse, subsurface rage, etc.). That is REALLY inappropriate anger when it is directed toward a completely different person, but very common, I think. Especially common when the true target of anger is difficult or impossible to confront (Maharaji would be an example).

So I think you are absolutely right--anger should be expressed right when it is felt, to the person it is felt toward, and about the behavior of theirs that it is felt about. Then it will communicate something true. Something that can be positive and constructive. If it is suppressed and comes out uncontrollably later, it will communicate something untrue and will be destructive.
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Date: Sun, Jun 14, 1998 at 19:16:16 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Peter
Subject: inappropriate anger
Message:
So we're agreed? We should just dump all over people at the slightest provocation. Sounds good to me. Just glad I'm not a little guy though. That would make it hard to be 'honest.'

-Scott
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Date: Sun, Jun 14, 1998 at 19:39:05 (EST)
From: Peter
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: inappropriate jest
Message:
Scott--

Though you jest, you do not jest fairly. You use it as a hit-and-run form of disagreement. I admit that I do that myself sometimes, and it can be fun, and it can even be right. But in this case it's not. Maybe you didn't intend it to be.

Anyone who 'dumps all over people' at the 'slightest provocation' is clearly expressing inappropriate anger, because the slight provocation couldn't possibly cause enough anger to generate a dump. If it does generate a dump, it's only because it ignited previously stored anger (highly flammable). And that's highly inappropriate.

It seems like what you're really poking fun at is the idea that any time you feel anger, you should express it. Okay. I never meant to say that. As with any other emotion, you can process it and decide that there's no way that you can accomplish anything constructive by expressing it in a particular situation. But I personally have much more of a problem with NOT expressing anger when it would be constructive to do so than with expressing appropriate (i.e. fair) anger when it would not. And I see the same thing in the vast majority of the people around me.
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Date: Sun, Jun 14, 1998 at 22:56:20 (EST)
From: Stephen Harris
Email: mulcyber@pacbell.net
To: Peter
Subject: inappropriate jest(longish)
Message:
Hi Peter,
This is going to be a bit long because other people might read it.
In talking about the appropriateness of anger, a lot has to do
with whether the person did it intentionally or accidentally.
Anger has to do with having your boundaries intruded upon. So
for appropriate anger, one also needs legitimate boundaries.

Creating legitimate boundaries is not cut and dried. But if
we say expressing anger is healthy at all, then there are
situations where anger ought to be expressed. I'll join with
you and call this fair anger. Example: In a crowded grocery
store one can get expect to get jostled which you ignore.
But if someone knocks you on your can in order to get the last
loaf of bread on sale at 99 cents, one ought to get angry.

So dumping refers to expressing distorted or unfair anger.
Perhaps also to suppressing fair anger several times until
a small situation causes a big response when the anger is
finally released. It was clear that we were talking about
fair anger being expressed in the moment. Nor can one live
life happily by allowing bullies to intimidate you. Scott
strikes me as knowing the difference between dumping and
expressing fair anger. Now maybe my feelings are too sensitive
because what you called an inappropriate jest seemed to me
to be more accurately called a cheap shot. A lot depends upon
the awareness of the different meaning of the words which
were so inaccurately lumped together. Manipulation by word
play is the same quality flimflam spiritual gurus employ.
I will never believe that he made other than a sarcastic,
snide remark intended to create discord. So I came back from
my rocking chair to type this, instead of supressing it as
was my first inclination. Perhaps I have agreed with you too

Whole-heartedly,
Stephen
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Date: Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 00:33:11 (EST)
From: Peter
Email: None
To: Stephen Harris
Subject: good points
Message:
Hi Stephen. Thanks for your several responses, all of which have made good points. I've agreed with pretty much everything you said.

In particular, what you said about anger being a response to boundary violation, and its appropriateness depending on the existence of legitimate boundaries, is very true and something that I hadn't thought of. Children and immature adults frequently get angry at ridiculous things (for example, a parent won't buy them something they want) because their idea of a boundary violation (unacceptable treatment by other people) is unreasonable. This is just a very gross example and I know of more subtle cases connecting appropriate anger and legitimate boundaries. So right on.

I also agree with you that Scott's post was in fact a cheap shot. I'm glad you got out of your chair and expressed what you felt instead of suppressing it. I was angry when I first read his post, but by the time I answered it, I had 'gotten over it.' Now I'm realizing that I did in fact suppress it, small as it was. Thanks for helping me to really feel it and decide to express it. I'm going back to his post to answer it again.
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Date: Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 06:32:32 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: Stephen Harris
Subject: to Stephen - loaf of bread
Message:
Well your post became very serious but I have to say I rocked with laughter at this:
i>But if someone knocks you on your can in order to get the last
loaf of bread on sale at 99 cents, one ought to get angry. This just strikes me as hilarious! (still laughing)
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Date: Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 00:41:18 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Peter
Subject: inappropriate jest
Message:
Peter:

I'm sorry. It wasn't really directed at you. I keep seeing these half-baked pieces by John Stossel on some 60-minutes type show, where he makes some outrageous claim and then dares anyone to disagree with him using a simple argument. He had some show a few weeks ago that proposed people ought to express all their 'feelings' of anger as soon as they have them. It is difficult to demonstrate how destructive that might be, so he gets away with the dumbest arguments.

I guess my main point is that one's ability to be 'honest to the hilt' is largely a function of one's power. People who don't have much power, don't have much discretion. Expressions of anger can also be 'strategic' so how is one to know the difference? If I have a certain critical mass of power, and I have a sort of scary demeanor, I will probably be able to capitalize on the expression of anger in a way that puts you at a consistent disadvantage. The way societies have decided to deal with this is to simply quell anger to some extent. The common law evolved, in fact, as a means of quelling feuds which are the outcome of the kind of power dynamics I'm describing. The system was called Feudalism. I think it's fair to point out that Stossel is no great thinker, pretty or not. It is sort of hit and run, and not appropriate in this case. Still, it did force you to express your misgivings and conditions, which are important.

-Scott
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Date: Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 00:03:19 (EST)
From: Peter
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: P.S.--little guy
Message:
You mention that it might be hard for a 'little guy' to honestly express anger (for fear of getting beat up, you imply). There is a real grain of truth there. People who have little power and fear retribution if they express anger are far the most likely to store anger up in toxic amounts. And children, women, and minorities come in far ahead of 'little guys' in this respect. This is a real tragedy in our society and many others.
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Date: Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 01:11:09 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Peter
Subject: The little guy thing
Message:
Peter:

Here's another thought, because this power problem bothers me a lot. It would seem that your primary reason for expressing anger is instrumental. That is, anger that is not expressed takes forms that are more destructive than expressed anger. Fair enough, but that assumes anger is a sort of primary emotion, with a fundamental legitimacy. There are other emotions, like shame, that are probably far more legitimate that involve much heavier taboos than anger. Why is that? Cultural I expect.

We expect anger to get some result, or in other words that it is empowering. In most cases societies are not threatened by the appropriate expression of anger. It can get things out in the open. Not so much the anger, but what the anger is about. Still, it's not anger that's empowering, but openness. This is an important distinction. If one could express oneself clearly and completely without anger then that ought to be preferable. Is anger really indispensable? One gets angry, even when it might not be appropriate to expect things to change as a result. In that case it seems important to deal with the anger in a way that dissipates it (if it's debilitating). Humor might help as much a getting mad. It's sort of organic. There is probably not a formula.

I am just suspicious of the proposition that expressions of anger are noble, when expressions of shame are not. I would say that the latter is much more important for the long term mental health of the society. Don't know if I'm being clear about this, but it seems to me that people who are compelled to suppress shame are going to end up much more enraged that those who suppress anger.

-Scott
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Date: Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 01:40:20 (EST)
From: Peter
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: The emotion thing
Message:
that assumes anger is a sort of primary emotion, with a fundamental legitimacy

You betcha.

Still, it's not anger that's empowering, but openness. Is anger really indispensable?

Well, I think you're right that openness about how you feel and what you want is empowering. But sometimes someone is still going to violate that even though you've been open with them. Then anger IS indispensable.

I am just suspicious of the proposition that expressions of anger are noble, when expressions of shame are not.

I think that expression of either shame or anger, or of any other truly felt emotion, is healthy. Very healthy. Noble? I don't know what that means.

I think that both shame and anger are frequently suppressed, and that there is peer pressure in much of our society to do so. That's one of the great things about the forum. I've seen many expressions of both shame and anger, and on the whole people have been very supportive of these expressions. Beautiful.
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Date: Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 02:44:09 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Peter
Subject: The emotion thing
Message:
Peter:

that assumes anger is a sort of primary emotion, with a fundamental legitimacy

You betcha.

Really? Anger is fundamentally legitimate? Whose? When? Anyplace, anytime, by anyone? You mean to say you've never been better off when you chose NOT to express anger? That's never the better choice? Something that has a fundamental legitimacy would always be the better choice, wouldn't it? So, to me it is not anger that's legitimate, but openness.

Still, it's not anger that's empowering, but openness. Is anger really indispensable?

Well, I think you're right that openness about how you feel and what you want is empowering. But sometimes someone is still going to violate that even though you've been open with them. Then anger IS indispensable.

Surely you don't mean that you aren't sometimes better able to protect yourself by not expressing anger? Is that the only choice you have when you are violated? I really don't see that anger is necessarily the appropriate response when openness is ignored or not respected. I mean, I understand how it might be motivating but the powerful people I know rarely get angry, and when they do they're extremely self conscious about it. They quite clearly regard it as dis-empowering, at least on reflection. In fact, I would say they are ashamed. So is this just 'peer pressure' or is it something more basic?

I am just suspicious of the proposition that expressions of anger are noble, when expressions of shame are not.

I think that expression of either shame or anger, or of any other truly felt emotion, is healthy. Very healthy. Noble? I don't know what that means.

Sure you know what it means. The fact is that shame and anger are not on anything like the same footing. Expressions of anger are regularly regarded as noble. Christ's treatment of the money-changers. The Earp's at the OK Corral. Every professional and amateur sporting event. All these poor unfortunates who are unjustly required to suppress their anger, where are they? Aren't you just talking about expressions of anger in social situations that have had very good reasons for suppressing anger, in order to maintain civil order? Aren't you just demanding more license in those situations? If so, why have you not thought about the costs? Or is all of this a freebie?

Under what conditions, and in what social situations is the expression of shame condoned? Name one.

I agree that both are frequently suppressed, but the situation is not symmetrical. Anger is just demanding more license, a demand I am willing to hear as long as I'm not required to be in automatic agreement. Justify it to me. You're not bothering to do that. Shame has never shown its face, at least not if it could be helped. I am really not going to grieve very much if people are not able to express all the anger they feel. You clearly haven't lived in Washington, DC. Now, if anger were noble rather than just 'healthy' I might reconsider. Of course MY anger is always noble. That's a different matter. Surely it would be a better society if I were allowed to express all of MY anger, as soon as I feel it, with all it's potency and damn the consequences. I'm not so sure about you though. That might make things complicated. Suppose you just got angry because I got angry... and so on, and so on.

The way I see it is that anger deserves to be broken, to be fundamentally discontinuous, because it is NOT a fundamental emotion but a reaction. Anger can't bear much weight and it shreds easily. It has low tensile strength. As an emotional material it's a bit like cardboard, useful in a pinch but not as a basic building material. So, I'm not going to climb on your bandwagon. At least, not yet.

-Scott
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Date: Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 06:50:29 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: The emotion thing
Message:
Coming into the debate after it's over - nice and safe - tiptoe tiptoe ---

Scott I suspect you may be confusing anger with violence. Or at least anger with the expression of anger.
What about just taking it back to its essential self - the feeling of anger. What if a person can't even feel it? How do they know they are being terrorized, mocked, abused, stomped on or lied to? Sometimes it's only the feelings that tell the truth about a situation.

Those powerful people you admire so much are good manipulators (of themselves and others) That's another take on that. So what do you want, winner take all? or Know thyself?
(I know it's unfair to make it a choice!)

Regardez vous...(french for regards, you know)
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Date: Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 09:43:26 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Judex
Subject: The emotion thing
Message:
Judex:

Well, I suppose if one doesn't feel anger that would be a bit like not sweating in the desert. A sign that there may be a larger problem. It isn't that I think anger invalid, but simply that it's expression is problematic. I'm not even suggesting that expressing anger might not be healthy sometimes. But, I don't think it's worth it to come up with a set of rules for the 'appropriate' expression of anger. I think the larger problem may be shame, and that if we get a handle on that emotion the appropriate expression of anger will just happen. I'm not even sure about this. Just speculating. It's worth a look.

-Scott
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Date: Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 09:57:06 (EST)
From: Peter
Email: None
To: Scott/Judex
Subject: What she said
Message:
Scott--

Yeah, what she said! I think Judex is right on about the distinction between feeling anger and acting violently.

Really? Anger is fundamentally legitimate? Whose? When? Anyplace, anytime, by anyone? You mean to say you've never been better off when you chose NOT to express anger?

All emotions are fundamentally legitimate. A person feels how they feel. You don't choose your emotions. However, you can choose to suppress them. I'm saying anger is one that I, and many other people in my opinion, frequently choose to suppress and that it is a source of sickness to do so.

I also think that because anger is so ostracized, that not only do many people suppress it, but they can't handle it when someone else expresses it. This emotional immaturity in our society gives angry people TOO MUCH power.

Expressions of anger are regularly regarded as noble. Christ's
treatment of the money-changers. The Earp's at the OK Corral. Every professional and amateur sporting event. All these poor unfortunates who are unjustly required to suppress their anger, where are they?

I think they're at the sporting events. Not that I've been to very many, but I think you're right that there are more fans than you would expect who get extremely irate about the officiating and so on. I think that these people are likely to be people who have suppressed their anger toward their boss, their spouse, their neighbor. Probably better to let it out at the sporting event than not at all, but it certainly does nothing to solve the actual situation that they are upset about. Which means they're probably going to get angry again and suppress it again.

Your examples of anger being seen as noble are not convincing to me.

The fact is that shame and anger are not on anything like
the same footing. Under what conditions, and in what social situations is the expression of shame condoned? Name one. I agree that both are frequently suppressed

I think it's just as unhealthy when shame is suppressed, and just as healthy when it's expressed. I don't think we need to have a contest of which is the more abused emotion.

Anger can't bear much weight and it shreds easily. It has low tensile strength. As an emotional material it's a bit like cardboard, useful in a pinch but not as a basic building material.

That's what's great about it. It comes, it does its job, it goes. It doesn't stick around trying to be a basic building material.
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Date: Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 11:38:01 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Peter
Subject: What she said
Message:
Peter:

I also think that because anger is so ostracized, that not only do many people suppress it, but they can't handle it when someone else expresses it. This emotional immaturity in our society gives angry people TOO MUCH power.

There is a basic theoretical position that underlies this point of view, and I simply want to offer that it is only a theory. I frankly do not see that anger is 'ostracized' as you say. The fact that you can use such a word in this connection demonstrates to me how 'ideological' your position actually is. The concept that inappropriate anger comes from suppressing feelings of anger is an assertion. It's a pet theory. I see no reason to believe it's a fact, and you don't offer any. That's what I call ideology. Have you over read Hannah Arendt's 'Origins of Totalitarianism' in which she blames the licentiousness of the cabaret scene in Germany for loosing the destructive appetite for violence. She proposes that suppression may not be all bad. Have you ever bothered to question this belief in the sanctity and legitimacy of all feelings?

There is something like your theory in Habermas' notion of 'systematically distorted communication,' but his villain is power and a dependence on rationalization of the 'lifeworld.' His cure is 'unconstrained discourse' (also called 'linguistification of the sacred') but there are a lot of problems with that position. It's a lot easier the theorize about, than to put into practice. Paul Kahn makes a pretty detailed argument that you can't base a system of law or on open democratic society on some idealized concept of discourse. At some point someone has to make people do what they don't want to do. Whether that takes the form of open sanctions or 'peer pressure' simply depends on what is effective, and is deemed to be 'just.' I reiterate that the fundamental problem is that MY feelings are legitimate, but yours are questionable. We may overcome that basic disunity, but the solution is tenuous.

But frankly, enough on anger already! Why have you never asked me how one would go about opening the door to shame? Do you suppose that one could just say, 'Well, OK, from now on being ashamed is alright. Don't be ashamed about being ashamed.' Simple, huh? The fact that you haven't even brought it up indicates to me that you aren't very serious about it. On a superficial level you could just make shame illegitimate. Don't be ashamed. Just forget it. Anything goes. But, what happens if you actually legitimize shame by making the proposal that it is appropriate to be ashamed about some things? Oops. Starts to get messy. You also end up with the proposition that some people are actually 'better' than others, horror of horrors! But, I personally suspect that having legitimized shame you also have a legitimate way to make those kinds of judgments about who is better and who is not, whereas now that ability is quite limited. That's why the CEOs who make 50 times as much as the lowest paid workers in their company can sort of wag their ass at everyone. Shame is illegitimate. Who gives a damn about anger. It's a distraction.

-Scott
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Date: Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 00:49:29 (EST)
From: Peter
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: foul called on Scott
Message:
Sorry, Scott, but we're going to have to put you in the penalty box. That last post was a cheap shot. I really appreciate the open, honest, kind environment that usually predominates on the forum, and I feel that your post clearly violated that spirit. If you want to disagree in an open, honest, way that's fine. If not, shut up. Or I'm gonna have to open up a can of whup-ass (thanks, Rick).
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Date: Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 00:53:01 (EST)
From: Peter
Email: None
To: Peter
Subject: I take it back
Message:
Instant replay showed that Scott had more or less apologized just before the foul was called. So he's back in the game.
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Date: Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 01:39:45 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Peter
Subject: I take it back
Message:
Peter:

I also think it was more like an inappropriate jest than a 'cheap shot.' After all, I was trying to be humorous, not hurtful. I thougt you were 'skating' to a conclusion that was a little too easily gained. I mean, do you really think I thought you meant 'dumping?' I still think anger is minimally therapeutic. Whether it's dumping or not, it's usually problematic. Of course, I have no problem with MY expressions of anger. Just everyone else's.

-Scott
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Date: Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 03:15:29 (EST)
From: carol
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Fellas, my 2 cents
Message:
This has been an interesting discussion. IMO anger can be the helpful motivator that shakes one out of illusion or denial. It is not meant to be held longterm, but to be turned into action and determination toward change. It does not have to be outwardly expressed to others for this purpose, and doing so may create a disadvantage, but it seems that it helps make it real to have an object or person toward which direct some expression of the anger. (Care should be taken not to traumatize innocent children or bystanders with scary displays!)
Anger can also be the quick relief from pain, which is the root cause of anger. But the pain will need re-visiting and processing after the charge is fired through anger.

Peace be with you, Swamiji Beyondananda (alias Carol)
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Date: Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 06:52:02 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: carol
Subject: Good words, Carol
Message:
Hey, if you only charge 2 cents for them can I have some more?

affectionately, a reflective person
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Date: Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 09:48:42 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: carol
Subject: Fellas, my 2 cents
Message:
Carol:

Imagine, being advised on the appropriate role of anger by Mona Lisa. I think your advice is quite sensible.

-Scott
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Date: Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 15:18:43 (EST)
From: Stephen Harris
Email: mulcyber@pacbell.net
To: Peter
Subject: Shame
Message:
John Bradswhaw has done some writing about shame. His way of
looking at it distinguishes between guilt and shame. And shame is
divided into healthy shame and toxic shame. If I remember right
shame has to do with basic feelings of self-worth. And guilt
has to do with how you feel about a particular action.
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Date: Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 08:26:04 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Handling freedom
Message:
Wanted to post this because I had my first contact today with premies since becoming an ex - both my family member and a premie who rang to invite me to social/knowledge type of experience.
I felt confident about handling this well, or adquately, solely because of the advice others have shared from their experiences, here.

So everything is intact, I am intact, they are intact, and I am still free and it is so very excellent.

Thank you, friends.
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Date: Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 09:46:46 (EST)
From: Iola
Email: None
To: Judex
Subject: Freedom from Dogma
Message:
Well, I read until 3 a.m.

The interview with the ex-instructor was very enlightening.

I confess, I'm not completely cured. I went to the video, but I didn't feel anything except disgust. Some people give a little chuckle here and there, but I didn't find it funny. The info
given about videos is true.

Why does MJ have to 'edit' his videos. Why all the secrecy about MJ. Don't talk to others about your experiences in meditation (none other than being calmer). Don't question. The organizers have even come up with a script to say to introduce the videos in the various stages of an aspirant's progress. Premies are no longer supposed to use their own words.

When I see a new person, I think to myself ... I hope they 'JOIN' so that they can start sharing in these expenses. They say, 'How do you fund things.'; we say, 'Oh, we all give a little bit to
cover the expenses, but, of course, there is no obligation.'

I can't believe I have been duped. After reading these entries for five days, I am really wondering what is wrong with me. I have given lectures about cognitive dissonance (changing one's value system to allow strange behaviours and beliefs to take root). That's what happened to 'normal folks' during WW II. After all, one doesn't start stuffing people into gas chambers overnight.

Thanks for everything guys. I feel like I'm half way there. My feet still take me to K and MJ--but not for much longer.
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Date: Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 13:49:31 (EST)
From: PaulR
Email: None
To: ALL
Subject: Freedom from Dogma
Message:
I remember MJ saying that his videos didn't need to be edited because his satsang was the perfect experience to begin with.
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Date: Sun, Jun 14, 1998 at 05:03:17 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: Iola
Subject: Freedom from Dogma
Message:
Yes and on that well-known 'don't talk to others about your experience' it's almost a subconscious taboo, isn't it - I don't remember ever hearing M suggest it but everyone knows it.
Is it like, don't describe what an orgasm feels like, everyone knows?
BTW the thing I hate the most is when premies see someone having a hard time and they all say 'they're not practicing'.

It's all so smug and insular.

Good for me you introduced WWII stuff too. My mum just gave me an old book about the Korean war. It has a pic of my dad in it. He took over command of 77 squadron about 6 weeks before the end of the war.
Where I am working now, there are Korean students adn they are all so sweet and adorable (probably helps they must come from 'comfortable' families) but still - it's weird to think about it all.

A premie said my dad would suffer lifetimes of karma because of what he did. I think he suffered enough during his life.
Sorry if this doesn't make sense but still trying to connect the romance addiction/abusive family/abusive guru ideas.

So glad to hear you are doing your homework! Atta woman!!.
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Date: Sun, Jun 14, 1998 at 11:06:05 (EST)
From: david f.
Email: dkfreed@whidbey.com
To: Judex
Subject: Freedom from Dogma
Message:
It's so easy to fall into a holier-than-thou mode, even (or especaily?) in spiritual movements.

I know a group of people, including a friend of mine, that are part of a tibetan buddhist group. They came over to my friend's house a few weeks back and started critizing (sp?) her for being a consumer, because she loves wooden boats, and has about a half dozen craft (boats, canoe, kayak), in various stages of disrepair, sitting in her front yard.

To me this seems like a bastardization of spiritual teachings. (First off, its none of their damn business, and second, some of these people are very well off and taken care of by someone else, while my friend works 'on the front lines,' in a medical faciltiy in a county jail.)

So, its not just with BM and his group (though his is particularly secretive, exclusive, and damaging), but you find dogma everywhere.

bye for now, david f.
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Date: Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 01:43:11 (EST)
From: Mirabai
Email: golddiva@wire.net.au
To: To Gerry and everyone
Subject: To Gerry
Message:
Hi Gerry,

thankyou for your E-mail. I get a feeling we probably are talking about the same thing. It's sometimes hard to say. I can certainly relate to 'the self' behind all else that we experience.

I also feel that when we let go and forget ourselves is when we really become our selves, if you know what I mean. Watch children, they are individuals and certainly have their own special way of being different but without being too self-concious like most of us adults.

Somehow when we most grasp at things is when we least appreciate our life. You know when you're giggling and feeling love and close to people and life and afterwards wonder what there could be to feel bad about. When you're happy you're happy and when you're sad you're sad but we struggle with what we are; that's half the problem.

best regards, Mirabai.

P.S. I might try to log onto your new site another time.
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Date: Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 21:50:43 (EST)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Response time
Message:
I've just finished reading the posts below .
Carol ,
You have every right to say whatever you wan't.
I am tempted to launch into a long justification (or explanation) of this , that and the other (including the occult)
but I can still hear Katie's words vibrating in my ears, ( so to speak) about the healing nature of not feeling like one has to justify oneself for ones own feelings.
Besides, who would be interested anyway?

There is one thing I'd like to say though...to everyone.
For some twenty years now I have experienced a phenomona and acknowledged it consciously. And that is that there is a POWER or a FORCE or a SUPERIOR INTELLIGENCE...or an ENERGY...that responds to the mind and sometimes to matter.
Is this POWER within me , outside of me , or a combination of both ? I don't know.
But THAT IT EXISTS I HAVE NO DOUBT!
For instance when one prays who or what is one praying to?
And what can be the consequences?
I have been a reluctant occultist .
Why me? is a question I've asked many times.
I DO UNDERSTAND why many people feel strongly against tarot, astrology and the like ....and believe me , I do too.
I agree with David , that no-one should be subjected to a reading without it being requested....and I accept your apology,
David.
I understand Brians feelings too.
I shall not refer to these occult matters again on this forum unless invited to, because it stirs to many emotions.
But I do feel it's a shame that we humans react so associatively to things.
There really is no absolute fixed 'type' definable in terms of the external simularities.
There is no ex-premie that one can point to and say ,'aha, I know the type ....they're all the same!' It is the same with premies, americans, christians, atheists, scientists and yes occultists and mystics too.
I've been no mere dabbler. Nor am I a this or a that.
I am many things and always changing or modifying as hopefully you all are too.
Anyway, I am going to enjoy some time away from the computor;
although I shall post an occassional post like this once in a while.
So ,putting our differances aside, I'm sorry if the contents of my posts have upset some of you but that's the risk I consciously take when I choose to post stuff that I know some of you disagree with. But I wish you all the best ,
Keith
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Date: Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 22:26:14 (EST)
From: Sir David
Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com
To: Keith
Subject: Response time
Message:
Keith; who do you think is in with a chance in the World Cup? I hope it's not Germany again. But so far I see Italy and Brazil playing a mediocre game. There's much more to come. What about England's chances? We've lost our golden boy, Gazza. The highlight last time was our victory over Holland. I would like to think that we could play like that again, but.

The hot tip to do well is Nigeria and that's from the mouth of our Prime Minister, Tony Blair. That's worth a bet to get into the semis.

You're welcome here. Anyone with kindness and compassion is. And you have those qualities, for sure. They are appreciated.
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Date: Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 22:57:45 (EST)
From: Iola
Email: none to speak of
To: Keith
Subject: Response time
Message:
You're adorable. I bet you didn't really pull the love card, but it was a typically nice touch. I took it as a joke. You didn't offend me.

Please keep your opinions flying--you had to keep them under wraps for too long in the past!
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Date: Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 23:59:27 (EST)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: Iola , David and Judex.
Subject: Response time
Message:
Judex,
I am as scatterbrained as you me thinks.
No, I don't mean that, just we are both somewhat volitile...
moody (some guys are moody types too).
In my above post I addressed Carol whereas I meant that for
you, but I do tend to confuse you two with each other and
that message can be for Carol as well.
I should add that I do think I understand your sentiments
and in general I don't disagree, but things are not always quite what they seem.
I did feel that Iola would receive my message in a way that would not cause her any harm; besides she thinks I'm adorable!!!
Iola, thankyou my sweetpea, that's the nicest thing that's been said to me for quite a while. ( I think).
But by the way I really did select that love card for you ; and wonder if the non-context theme (one card cannot really have much of a context) could be alluding to love in a very general way?
What is love? Maharaji's love? Or the love shared by friends; or the love that can perhaps grow almost without noticing , by the type of sharing that occurs on a forum like this?
Could this be a message pertinent to you right now?
Anyway tarot can act like a mirror and need not be abused as a type of fortune telling device. Personally I hate 'out and out' fortune telling and agree that it is dangerous.
David, thanks too for the kind words at the bottom of your post.
I admit that after getting slammed a lot on this forum it really does feel good to receive a little kindness.
(the following is definately off-topic). DAVID ,
as for the world cup. I don't think England have what it takes to win it.
Although like you I would love them to win it .
I believe France can improve and have a chance.
But let's review things in a week or two when we've had a chance to watch all the teams in action.
I was a mad keen Westham supporter throughout my childhood and still follow their fortunes to this day. I was at Wembly when they lifted the fa cup in 1964 and the following year when they won the european cup winners cup . What glory days!!
Gotta go now!
LOVE to everyone (That's a release too , like shouting FUCK ; ....god, it's great to challenge taboos) .
Keith
Return to Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 14:30:53 (EST)
From: bb
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: Response time
Message:
Hey, no fair going yet, I printed out a couple of your inactive
posts just today and I was gonna look at some more then get
back to you. Who cares if you are only talking to even ONE
person here? That's enough reason to keep on.
Hmmmm?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 19:12:47 (EST)
From: JW
Email: joger02@aol.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Slit-His-Throat-Security -Guy
Message:
Okay, 10 points for Joy who remembered the name of the premie doing security in the Lord of the Universe video who said that if he was there he would have slit Pat Haley's throad for hitting BM in the face with a shaving cream pie. His name was Fats Goldstein. (Thank you Joy. That was somewhere in the back of my brain, but I couldn't bring it to the surface. Early middle age can be annoying that way.) Anyone else remember him? I actually lived in an ashram with him for awhile, along with a few other extremely intense and heavy security types.

Also, did anyone else watching that video have the same reaction I did to see BM actually get hit with that pie? It was so funny. [I always thought BM was riding in a parade at the time, in on open convertable and that Haley ran out from the crowd and threw the pie. I don't know where I got that idea.] And Pat Haley came accross as an extremely likeable person, who really didn't want to hurt anyone, just trying to bring BM down to the level of ordinary people. So smart to hide the pie in a under a bunch of flowers. Wasn't there some rumor on the forum that he's dead?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 21:48:54 (EST)
From: Joy
Email: bluebirdd@aol.com
To: JW
Subject: Slit-His-Throat-Security -Guy
Message:
I certainly hope Pat Haley's not dead as a result of that unfortunate incident; he really did seem like a pretty cool guy, just out to have a bit of harmless fun with this audacious creep who had the nerve to so publicly proclaim himself the 'Lord of the Universe'.

Michael (Fats) Goldstein was actually a pretty nice guy, some of my friends were good friends with him, though perhaps he was just a bit overzealous around 1973, but weren't we all? God, watching that video it just all seemed so naive and brainwashed, and totally off the wall. It was great fun seeing the so-called Holy Family, Mata Ji and her greedy comment about how if you really understood Knowledge (or something to that effect) you'd want to give Mata Ji Mercedes Benz's too; and Bhole Ji's Elvis impersonation at Millennium (my favorite part); and Bal Bhagwan Ji's extensive rap about how he's nothing, Maharaji is everything -- wonder how that'd jive with his current claim to be Satguru? But thinking about it a bit, maybe BBJ actually IS the Satguru after all, because he declares himself to be nothing? Isn't this what all true masters are supposed to do, have a supreme humility (TOTALLY lacking in BM)? But, personally I feel the whole concept of Satguru is pretty off-the-wall, just a very lucrative family business which the Rawat's have stumbled into. Heck before long they'll be declaring Raja Ji and Bhole Ji gurus, too, if there was any money to be made out of it. But back then, they were all supposed to be an incarnation of one of the aspects of Hindu Godhead: Brahma (Creator--BM), Vishnu (Sustainer--Bal Bhagwan Ji), and Shiva (Destroyer--Bhole Ji).

Well, I'm just rambling here, but wanted to add my impressions, having just seen that video. In the words of a very good friend of mine (recent ex-premie) who lurks here regularly but refuses to comment (and you know who you are!!), 'HOW COULD WE HAVE BEEN SO STUPID!?'
Return to Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 21:56:09 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Slit-His-Throat-Security -Guy
Message:
so JW, did you write the conclusion to 'Chain Heresy' or not?
I didn't know this particular security guard but I may have met him in Tucson!
I posted this early on when I arrived here, but i think the story fits the thread:
It was July In Tucson Arizona. It was at least 105 and dangerously arid. i.e. dehydration. This was the age when events were called festivals and festivals went on all day every day for the entire 3 day duration (or more)
They had all these characters come up on stage and ooo and goo
I was there with my 2 boys, at that time age 3 and 4 (i think).
They got hungry around 5 and no M had appeared. Anyone remember how they never could tell you exactly WHEN he would appear? So we stayed glued to our seats. In retrospect, I probably had ignored other needs the boys had, instead waiting in anticipation of divine presence.
Anyway they finally got through to me - poor things - and so I left my seat and attempted to leave the hall. I was blocked at the exit by 'security' 2 big guys - really big -
they said 'M has said that no one should leave the building'
I was terrified but explained that my children needed to eat and run around for a while (I had already looked all over the hall for food). The prick at the door said ' this is M's agya'
and I said 'well I have to go' - and started to go out the door
He actually PUSHED me back!!! A child in each hand!!
At which point I said 'GO TO HELL' and walked out.
At which point HE said ' go ahead but it is on your head that you
are going against Gooroo Margie's orders!!)
Believe you me I was convinced we would all die at that point.
It was so awful - I actually remember - at the moment I left the hall - hating and resenting my children for putting me through that. *FUCK*!!!!!!!!!!!!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 22:09:15 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Slit-Throat- selena on selena
Message:
OK - JW I don't mean to take away from the purpose of your thread, but, having just posted my last post; I have to tell each and every one
of you how fucking upset I am. I am remembering and I feel like
shit. Please respond to this. This is not my usual crap. This is
real. I need feedback because I hate myself for what I did to
those children. Not just in Tucson but in Miami a hundred times and all over. Ignoring and getting angry when all they were asking for was basic needs. but I had to wait to see if
M would grace us with his presense. I can just imagine the vibes
I put out to them. It's amazing they even talk to me.

x are you reading this? help
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Date: Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 22:20:57 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Selena
Subject: Slit-Throat- selena on selena
Message:
Dear Selena -
I know you can't help from feeling bad about it, and you are right that what you did wasn't the right thing to do, but own up to it, and then forgive yourself. Honestly, what you did was NOT that bad, and it is something that I feel your kids would be able to forgive.

We were all so brainwashed that we did heartless things to other people because we thought that's what M wanted. I still cringe when I think about some of the things I did. I feel like I can't blame those things on Maharaji, even though he is the reason I did them. Blaming him is an easy out - it makes you feel better for a while, but you still have to deal with your own guilt.

I made my fifteen-year-old sister and her fourteen-year-old-friend wait in a darshan line in the sun for three hours once. They both got really sick, almost passed out, no water was available. M was doing one of his Lila things and didn't show up. You get the drift. I still feel bad about this (and other things), and I am slowly forgiving myself for them. I know the guilt is much worse with your own little kids, but I can understand a tiny bit of your feeling, I hope.

I really hope this post isn't too tough on you. What you did was NOT that bad. I hope you are OK, Selena!

Love from Katie
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Date: Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 22:25:20 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Selena
Subject: And one more thing
Message:
There is NOTHING that makes me angrier at Maharaji and his organization that watching good people like you go through agony because of their guilt over things they did while trying to obey his whims.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 22:38:32 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: Katie and everyone
Subject: And one more thing
Message:
I am Trying to type through tears.
Everyone, I hope you read this before you respond to my above post. Please get back to JW's original post. I shouldn't have done
that emotional outburst.
Security sucked. My example is only one of many I am sure.
I lost it after I posted that. I am still crying.
Thanks Katie for what you just posted. I just sent you email.
What you said was right on and not confrontational al all.
I hope that my post doesn't distract from the real issue, as Katie and JW are trying to show, that the results of M and his cult hav had real and devastating effects on many.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 22:46:30 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Selena
Subject: And one more thing
Message:
Selena - Your post IS the real issue - the harm that was done to people by their involvement with Maharaji. And it's not distracting or anything - it's REAL. Your emotional outburst was entirely appropriate and probably will help a lot of other former premie parents.

My husband read your post and said I should tell you that that admitting that you made mistakes while raising your kids is a very healthy thing. My mother has never been able to do that (and she made some huge mistakes, like being a passed out/abusive alcoholic for years), and I can't even have a real relationship with her any more because of it. So good for you - you are really brave to face these things.

Love,
Katie
Return to Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 01:57:57 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Selena
Subject: And one more thing
Message:
Thanks so much, Selena, for sharing what you are really feeling. It just feels so ..... real. I started out this thread just being gossipy about some premie and you made this thread really valuable. It's been great for me just to read it.

I never had kids, but please keep in mind that you were doing what you thought was right. Maybe in hindsight you found out it wasn't right, but you still did what you thought was best and it IS BM's fault for making himself the absolute priority for a premie.

I did some terrible things to people I love because I put BM FIRST. Like Katie said, I STILL, to this day, cringe sometimes when I think about it. It was a BIG mistake, but I was doing what I thought was right. I'm sorry for what I did, but I wasn't intentionally trying to hurt anyone. Given how I was programmed, I don't think I had any choice. I had turned over my free choice to BM. I'm sure it was much the same way for you with your kids.

But, in the end, it is so obvious that your kids were more important to you, such that you would disobey his ignorant 'agya' to take care of your kids. Good for you. I think you should feel proud, not guilty.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 10:12:26 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Selena
Subject: And one more thing
Message:
Selena:

What struck me about the experience you related was that you confronted those two thugs and walked past them. I don't think I'd have stood for it either, but would probably have blamed their behavior on PAM or something. Certainly not Maharaji! You walked through barbed wire to get your kids some freedom. Good for you! Your feeling toward your kids probably gives you some guilt. My 'inner child' makes me feel guilty all the time, probably with good reason most of the time. Having the responsibility of REAL kids would be daunting. But look, you actually had to overcome your feelings to grab that freedom, so your feelings are not the issue. They betrayed you as well, and you still overcame. Don't know about the other times, but at least regarding the incident you related, you done good!

-Scott
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Date: Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 22:41:39 (EST)
From: Iola
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: The Hurricane Festival
Message:
After having been up for 36 hours waiting at the convention centre for a bus to skirt us away, we finally arrived at a motel in Kissimee, Florida. No soon had we gone to sleep than my one-year-old and I were awakened by a knock at the door. M is giving darshan now. He wants you to come and then pack up and go home.

Good grief!

I never understood why the LORD OF THE UNIVERSE hadn't diverted the storm or called the event on a different weekend.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 23:16:03 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Iola
Subject: The Hurricane Festival
Message:
Hi Iola -
A lot of people on here have posted about that hurricane festival. Some people actually said it was their favorite festival. My best friend was there, and she said the worst part about the middle-of the-night darshan was the fire ants on bare feet - hope you didn't experience those!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 23:26:27 (EST)
From: eb
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: The Hurricane Festival
Message:
Iola and Katie,

I enjoyed that festival, but my friend had a nightmare experience with her child there. My friend wasn't going to go, but premies convinced her it was the right thing to do. She got there late, missed darshan, had no diapers and no money. I don't know how she got home, but she didn't listen to premies for guidance after that.

eb
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Date: Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 22:45:28 (EST)
From: Sir David
Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com
To: Selena
Subject: Slit-Throat- selena on selena
Message:
Not your fault and you SHOULD blame Maharaji for this. He put that torture in place and he made people suffer. Maharaji was inhuman and encouraged the same behaviour in us. You couldn't help the way you acted, non of us could. Such is the nature of brainwashing.
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Date: Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 23:23:19 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Sir David
Subject: Slit-Throat- selena on selena
Message:
Dear David -
I do think it's important not to blame Maharaji for everything, and to take responsibility for our part of it. I mean, we were human beings with free will, and we made certain choices. Besides, Maharaji never EVER takes responsibility for anything even slightly negative that occurs around him (it's always PAM, or the stupid premies, or whatever he can blame it on at the moment) and I certainly wouldn't want to emulate him.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 06:03:33 (EST)
From: Mirabai
Email: golddiva@wire.net.au
To: Katie
Subject: I agree Katie:Responsibility
Message:
Dear Katie,

I was really pleased to read your post about taking responsibility for ones actions etc.. I have to admit that if you hadn't put your post in I would have been too cowardly to have said something similar to what you did. I wholeheartedley agree with you!

There was so much friction when I first got on to this site whenever I suggested anything positive about Maharaji that it's kind of made me feel really reluctant to disagree with anyone.
(Not that I'm implying that You said anything positive about M).

I need to overcome my reluctance to express myself by feeling intimidated by other people just because we have different views. I have felt that there have been a number of critisicms made regarding M by people here such as Jim that are really worth looking at and yet I feel that he can lose his credibility by being nasty and reactive to others.

Thanks Katie for being an example that I could follow!

Mirabai
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Date: Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 10:48:20 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Mirabai
Subject: I agree Katie:Responsibility
Message:
Thanks for the affirmation, Mirabai. It is a subject I feel very strongly about, thus I needed to say what I said.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 10:49:55 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Mirabai
Subject: Something good about Maharaji
Message:
Mirabai:

Don't want to egg you on, but am pretty convinced that the barrier with respect to 'saying something positive about Maharaji' is not on this site. I've had an ongoing challenge for anyone who can relate a single unambiguous example of compassion or good-heartedness from Maharaji. No takers, and it's been over six months. I think the problem is that there is nothing to relate. Not a thing. What premies get into instead are justifications for his lack of manifestation, like they can second-guess his intentions or something and then excuse him. That's not saying 'something positive about Maharaji.' It's just 'premiespeak.' Call a spade a spade.

-Scott
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Date: Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 14:43:15 (EST)
From: bb
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Something good about rawat!!!!
Message:
I meant to post this one to you for a while now. I have an
example! Once his little son closed the car door and
the l. of u. had his finger in it! Or his hand. So he started
bellowing offensively and he saw the look on his kids face
and he said 'it's ok, it's ok.' And then he went on and on
about this revelation it gave him that he could adjust his
behaviour for someone elses benefit. I swear to whatever that
he was saying that. I thought at the time ' I'm ahead of you on
THAT one.' I was sort of startled to hear him talking
so emphatically like this was a new revelation.

However, one minor incident doesnt mean general enlightenment!
Here is one that might qualify like that -quarter- example.
Give him back his quarter and send him to heck.
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Date: Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 19:59:00 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: bb
Subject: Something good about rawat!!!!
Message:
BB (oops, that's Bridget Bardot) bb:

Thanks for the example. I did that same thing to my kindergarten teacher. I was amazed at how resilient human limbs could be. Well, that's one. I am chastened.

-Scott
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Date: Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 08:30:24 (EST)
From: Sir David
Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com
To: Katie
Subject: Where the blame lies
Message:
Katie; you know what a pressure cooker Maharaji created. You know the stress and strain that he would subject his premies to. A person who is in that pressure cooker is not going to act like a normal person.
But it another way. Take some teenagers who are into a peace and love trip and before they can get mature enough to rationalise things, lay the 'The Lord has come' trip on them and then use guilt in order to control their lives when they get into their twenties. Those people are not going to act like normal, caring people especially when they are being slowly tortured mentally by Maharaji's pressure cooker.
Whose fault is that? Maharaji's. He was the Lord who was teaching people to be inhuman. While we were in that process, we didn't know any better. We couldn't see the wood for the trees. Maharaji kept people in constant confusion and fear, sometimes. WHile we were under his spell he was constantly ridiculing us.
I have an audio tape of a question and answer session with M in 1976. All the premies on it sound totally freaked out and pissed off. Who's fault is that? Maharaji's. When a con man sells you a duff car, who do you blame? Yourself for being so gullable or the car salesman? If the brakes fail and you injure somebody, who's fault is it?
If you give your life to Maharaji and end up a mess, who's fault is it? Maharaji's or yours? If you go to see a doctor with stomach pains and he prescribes the wrong medicine and makes you worse, whose fault is it?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 10:45:08 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Sir David
Subject: Where the blame lies
Message:
Dear David -
The way I see it, blaming Maharaji is sort of like blaming your parents. There is a stage that people need to go through where they get angry at Maharaji (or at their parents), and cast blame on them. I think it's really important that people do this.

But as I said before, eventually, you have to take responsibility for your part of it - the things YOU did when you were involved with Maharaji. I agree that we were in a pressure cooker, and were under a lot of stress and strain, and that Maharaji instigated this, but he wouldn't have been able to do it without the cooperation of all of us. We all helped make the pressure cooker during the time we were in it.

I am sure you know people who do irresponsible or hurtful things and excuse themselves 'because they had a bad childhood', or some other such reason. Those people will never grow up, IMHO (Maharaji is a good example). In the same way, I feel like we need to take responsibility for the things we did when we were involved with M for two reasons: so we can separate ourselves from him completely, and so we can forgive ourselves.

In my experience, I have been able to forgive myself much more when I take responsibility for something that I did, no matter what or who made me do it. I think taking responsibility is a healing thing. It's harder to do in the beginning, but I think it leads to much greater self-respect than blaming others.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 20:51:54 (EST)
From: Mirabai
Email: None
To: Katie and David
Subject: To Katie and David
Message:
Dear Katie and David,

If I get ripped off by someone, I have to face the feelings about myself, not just the one who ripped me off. What was it in me that got myself into that suituation.

Once again, I really liked your post to David, Katie, I don't really have a lot to add to it right now. I do understand the temptation to only blame or predominantly blame the other person for the situation. I have done that with my parents a long time ago and had to do a lot of soul-searching etc...

best wishes to you both

Mirabai
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Date: Sun, Jun 14, 1998 at 13:48:27 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Where the blame lies
Message:
Katie,

I agree with you in regard to the 'parent' and 'bad-childhood' analogies, IF someone were saying that they were unhappy NOW, or were doing bad or destructive things NOW because they followed BM in the past. I don't buy people blaming their CURRENT problems on BM and, frankly, I don't recall ex-premies doing that on the forum.

But while we were IN the cult, that is a different issue. And I think, for example, if you believed BM was god, because he represented himself that way, and if you then rejected, or downgraded the importance of people you loved, for example, like your family, because you put BM FIRST, because he told you too and you believed him, then that IS BM's fault and I don't think it's the ex-premie's fault. Now, I accept that I did that, but I also think it IS BM' s fault. If it wasn't for him I wouldn't have done it. AND I didn't WANT to do it either. But the programming was so strong, and, as David says the 'pressure cooker' was so prevalent, that we did things that we didn't want to do that hurt other people. At least I did.

Now, clearly, in some aspects of my life while a premie I STILL had at least some free will and I likely did things that only I am responsible for that were wrong. That's a different story. But for some things, I do think people are justified for not, as you say, 'taking responsibility,' because they likely have little, if any to take.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Sun, Jun 14, 1998 at 15:01:11 (EST)
From: Sir David
Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com
To: JW
Subject: Thanks Joe
Message:
Thanks for putting in very clearly, what I was trying to say. One reason for this forum is for people to realise that they were influenced in a most insidious way by Maharaji, into acting in ways that went against their wishes and nature. Like you, I have some big regrets about the way I 'detatched' myself from close relationships against my own better judgement because I believed M to be the Lord etc etc.

I can see that you understand where I'm coming from here. The pain of the past was not our fault. We gave our lives to M and he made us suffer for it. The suffereing now is remembering the God awful things we said and did ( or didn't do) which were against our natures but done in his name. Glad you understand.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Sun, Jun 14, 1998 at 16:41:32 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Sir David and Joe
Subject: Clarification: Responsibility
Message:
One of the reason I made such a big point about taking responsibility for OUR PART of what we did while we were involved with Maharaji is because doing that has really helped me come to terms with some things that I did in my past. It's not my intention to lay a guilt trip on anyone (I hope you understand that, David and Joe!). It is just that taking responsibility for some bad things that I did (even though I had plenty of valid reasons why I did them), has made me stronger, helped me move on from the past, and given me more self-respect.

That's all - but that's why it's important to me.
Katie
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Date: Sun, Jun 14, 1998 at 16:56:14 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: all
Subject: and more clarification
Message:
I also mean to say that taking responsibility is what works for me. BUT, I was never high up in the M cult, didn't do much 'in his name', and don't really have that much baggage from that era. (When I talk about taking responsibility for some things I did that were wrong, I am talking about another time in my life.) So I'm not saying I know what is right or best for Joe, David, or anyone else.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Sun, Jun 14, 1998 at 19:11:42 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: and more clarification
Message:
Thanks, Katie. I recall we had this discussion once before some months ago on the forum regarding 'forgiveness.'

I have no problem with 'forgiving' or 'taking responsibility' as a form of affirmation or 'letting go' that can be helpful in one's own growth.

But then there is the 'truth.' And I think it's also important to know the truth, of what happened and why it happened, even if that makes it harder to 'forgive' or to 'take responsiblity.'
Return to Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Sun, Jun 14, 1998 at 20:33:20 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: and more clarification
Message:
I agree with you here, JW. To me, Selena's testimony was very damaging to Maharaji. It made me get REALLY angry at Maharaji, and made me see, once again, why I am on this forum.

But there's also Selena personally and her request for assistance on the forum - what I told her was something that has helped me accept the fact that I had done a bad action. I thought it might help her as well. Maybe it did, maybe it didn't, but it was the best thing that I knew to say at the time.

Also, and this is slightly off subject, I keep thinking about those security guys. I bet some of them feel pretty guilty and awful about what they did in M's world (in fact I KNOW some of them do.)

I did door-guarding once, and I would have given Selena a hard time (very nicely, of course) about going out that door, if I'd been told not too by someone with authority in DLM - which I would have assumed came from Maharaji. Of course, I would have WANTED to let her out, but I would have felt like I was disobeying M's agya to do so. (And I certainly wouldn't have said that thing about the wrath of M being on her head or whatever! I guess the guy was doing it to transfer it off of his own head...)
Return to Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Sun, Jun 14, 1998 at 20:45:51 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: and more clarification
Message:
Hi
Another basketball game brings Utah and Chicago closer to whatever it is they are striving for. More money no doubt. As I sit in the other room exploring the forum. Don't get me wrong I like basketball. Our town is home to a favorite. But enough is enough.
Katie, you did ok. your advice was a kind counter balance. It wasn't out of line or anything, no need to keep defending. Unless of course you want to :) as the best of us says over and over.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Sun, Jun 14, 1998 at 20:54:58 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Selena
Subject: and more clarification
Message:
Thanks, Selena. I really do believe in what I said - but am actually just trying to clarify my feelings to JW and David. I think you understand where I am coming from, but I'd like them to understand too. Also, I had no intention of laying any kind of guilt trip on anyone, and apparently that might have happened. Sometimes the forum is such a clunky medium for getting ideas across (and sometimes I don't express myself all that awfully well, either!).

Take care,
Katie
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Date: Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 07:16:16 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Where the blame lies
Message:
And also there is the point abuot power made earlier here today. Some people are powerful. Whether that is because others allow them to be, accept them to be, want them to be - or they REALLY ARE (like parents in the eyes of a child).

And a 'powerful' person can easily manipulate others. They know how to do it, that's how they got 'powerful'

If a guru gave satsang in the woods and there was no-one there to hear him talking...

I mean, come on! I had Iola's experience of hearing about M just at a time I was really, really needy, and asking for help inside (praying). Of course afterwards I forgot there were many times I prayed and nothing much happened (or it did, gradually).

However this particular time, hearing about M was followed by hearing him say 'the water has a way of finding the thirsty'

and since he knows EVERYONE new who goes to listen is thirsty (otherwise why the heck would you go - no-one tells you it's a comedy club after all)

and he has the Audacity (Grace?) (Might?) (Right?) (Smarts?) to OWN IT.

So he takes responsibility for being the Saviour, of knowing The Way.

And others, relinquish their knowing to his greater knowing, and he encourages that fully, with promies of something he knows they don't know....How can They be Responsible, they are innocent, I would think.

Innocent except for their longing. So they are responsible for being innocent, that's how I see it. And he for not being.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 07:24:46 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Blame...and yet again....
Message:
However having said that what comes to mind is that Maharaji is innocent too, in his own way.

Even if he was corrupted, even if he was knowingly just after power and wealth and 'worldly things' - I guess I believe anyway what Pope someone said, Original Innocence (for all - not just some).

On some level Maharaji/Prem Rawat is innocent, as are we all, and in that way I can forgive him. That's another way to move on.
However I don't know if I am there yet. I am still sad because now I have to keep trying to be happy, and be brave, and courageous, and take risks, and care about others, and hope that when I die I am conscious enough to say a big thank you to my life (and not be afraid). That it's not all 'being taken care of'.
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Date: Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 23:21:05 (EST)
From: carol
Email: None
To: Selena
Subject: Slit-Throat- selena on selena
Message:
Selena, They ARE talking to you. Don't beat yourself up for it. You've probably already apologized to them, but do it again if you need to instead of being angry at yourself. You have changed for the better. I have been guilty of many things for my older kids, too. Being honest with them and being a more maturely caring person to them is all that seems necessary now.
Carol
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Date: Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 01:40:39 (EST)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Selena
Subject: Slit-Throat- selena on selena
Message:
Selena,
It'll be okay. You're unhappy with yourself because you let your children down. You're not perfect, and if you'd never become a premie, you still wouldn't have been perfect, and you would have perhaps made other mistakes (most likely). But you realize now that you wish you could've done better, and that's the most you can do. You can somehow communicate your apology to your children now. I'll bet they'll forgive you. If you were them, you'd forgive your mom.
Rick
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Date: Sun, Jun 14, 1998 at 17:26:56 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Selena
Subject: Slit-Throat- selena on selena
Message:
Selena,
All parents get aggravated with their kids, with or without festivals. There have been times when my kids inconvenienced me and I got really upset at them at the time. All parents think stuff like that, so please don't be too hard on yourself. That is part of parenting. Kids get in the way of the parents' agendas. Parents need to let go of their agendas from time to time, but sometimes this isn't possible.

The main thing is that you did the RIGHT thing for your kids and got them the hell out of there and met their needs. Even if you were upset at the time, you did what you had to as a parent. That is what counts-your actions. Your thoughts were really somewhat normal--considering the cirumstances, of course. I'd just let go of it and congratulate yourself for standing your ground with the asshole. Any loving God knows that kids come first, anyway :-)

VP
A parent making mistakes, too. (Even without festivals)
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Date: Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 23:18:36 (EST)
From: eb
Email: None
To: Selena
Subject: Slit-His-Throat-Security -Guy
Message:
Dear Selena,

I don't remember the childcare set up in Tucson, but I know I was there with my oldest son who was still in diapers. He was lactose-intolerant, ate some yoghurt, and caused quite a problem for the people around us trying to remember Holy Name. I remember getting lots of disgusted stares.

You may feel guilty now for being angry at your kids, but it sounds like you did the right thing, pushing your way through the security prick to get them food. That took more courage than I had. For me it was hard being a parent while trying to put Maharaji first; everyone else looked like they were doing a better job than I.

I was really glad that I had kids at programs so that I could spend time in the childcare rooms. It was a lot more fun playing with kids than it was sitting for hours and hours listening to initiators blithering on and on. And your point about waiting for Maharaji to show up--it was ridiculous! But what about the screwy programs they have nowadays? Show three videos and then he comes out on cue. It's so dead, IMO.

When I begin to regret the past, I am sorry that my beautiful children had such a fucked up mom. Then I have to regret the dysfunctional childhood that set the whole trip in motion. I mean, it's so cyclical and dependent, and I've spent so much time in therapy dealing with dad and mom and husbands and me, that I now look at it this way: I really did the best I could. I'm really grateful that I'm not in that space anymore. And dammit, it's a miracle my kids turned out as well as they did: bright, beautiful, and they love me.

Selena, I want you to know how much you helped me on Wednesday when I was so down about my daughter. I told her what you said (Math Sucks) and it really helped us put things in perspective.

Love,
eb
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Date: Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 02:45:12 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: didn't slit her throat tonite
Message:
Thank you. Everyone!!! I am overwhelmed by all of your responses.
I saved each and every one in Word on my disk and I plan to read
them frequently.

I did start this out innocently to tell the story of the nazi
security guy in Tucson, but I guess there's stuff that surfaces and takes a long time to heal. And without all of you it would take longer.
Who else would even be able to relate?

You know, I never thought I would get so attached to all of you.
But I have. Scary stuff for a hard ass like I think I am.
(of course obviously I am not)

All of you have made a big difference tonight.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 18:45:28 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: Iola and Everyone
Subject: re-entry
Message:
Hi Iola
I posted my advice about how to enjoy yourself without premie life. It's waaayyyy at the end of the active. About to enter obvlivion. But you can click on the inactive link at the bottom of this page and see it.
I hope others can give contribute here and give you some more advice. I know mine sounded kind of tongue (sp?) in cheek but I just meant, do something for yourself that you KNOW will kick ass.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 18:54:37 (EST)
From: Iola
Email: None
To: Selena
Subject: re-entry
Message:
Thanks for the advice. I hardly ever drink. I'm actually afraid to reveal my e-mail address in case some comes to kill us. After all, Bob Mishler blew up in plane didn't he?

Do you think there are secret police? They are always getting us to fill out forms, etc.

Anyway, I hope that I can't be traced (at this point anyway).
Return to Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 19:05:05 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: Iola
Subject: re-entry
Message:
Well girl you are talking to the original paranoid. I had an experiece back in December with a true believer I thought was my friend. Without details, let me tell you it was an eye opener.
the level and intensity of her anger toward me for doubting and expressing my doubts about M was unbelievable!
Yes I do think religious fanatics are capable of violence.
No I don't think anyone will trace you by email. The web logs will show what machine you came in through, but not your log in name.
And Brian is to be trusted. I believe this. As paranoid as I am I trust him.
Of course if you reveal through posts bits and pieces of yourself the lurkers will figure out who you are if they know you. After a while it doesn't matter - at least that's been my experience. Be as careful as you want though. And I was really kidding about getting drunk I just meant do something outrageous, somehow. Dance naked around the house with loud angry girl music.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 21:05:45 (EST)
From: Cheeseman
Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com
To: Iola
Subject: re-entry
Message:
I wouldn't worry about secret police or violence. Maharaji's world is only a little organisation. After you've left it all behind, you realise that. Perhaps back in the seventies, a forum like this might have been dangerous but those days are long gone now and so have all the premies, gone to oblivion, every one (well nearly). There's no cohesion in Maharaji's organisation. There's no group satsangs in the evening; no feeling of premie togetherness.

It's all but died. Jim Heller has given his home address out several times. Nobody's killed him. Maharaji has all but forgotten about his seventies empire when he was the Lord. I think now he just wants to keep things managable. Get some new students in to keep the business going. Keep away from the videos and the premies and Maharaji's world just disappears like it was never there. And now he's been demoted from his God status, what premies there are left just want a quiet life with their master.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 02:05:35 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Cheeseman
Subject: re-entry
Message:
Mr. Velveeta, I agree. I mean what would a premie have to get angry about by this forum? I mean, one might get angry if we called BM a fat, arrogant, greedy, slimy, rancid sack of shit, but who would do that?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 06:22:55 (EST)
From: Ched
Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com
To: JW
Subject: That's lost on me
Message:
Who's Mr Velveeta? Don't understand the meaning of this.
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Date: Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 09:30:06 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Ched
Subject: Velveeta off topic
Message:
David - Velveeta is a really cheap kind of processed cheese that's sold in the US. It's sort of like 'American' cheese (not sure if you know what that is), but soft and even more bright orange, if you can believe it. Thus Mr. Velveeta would be a good pseudonym for days when you want to go slumming.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 09:35:04 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Iola
Subject: Leaving M and paranoia
Message:
I've had that kind of ideas too, as well as some other ex-premies who recently left.

I think it's quite the contrary in fact: the BM is scared of us, and some premies are too.

Thousands and thousands of premies left m since the 70s.

M or DLM or EV threatening anybody is a fairy tale!

Now we have a problem: how is it that we all have that same fear in our mind ?
Isn't it because m told us for ages that so many bad things will happen to us if we leave k/him ?
Didn't we know some of our friends who left, never received any news from them (now you understand why), and didn't we wonder what happened to them? In what type of hell are they burning?
What mysterious thing God did to them?
All these fairy tales ....

M is scared to death, he is a chicken, he doesn't dare to face reality, he can't cope with the world 'out there', we can, god knows what he is fearing! That's why he has such a securiity day and night. To make him feel comfortable.
We have access to things he has no idea!

I still have some of that fear, and I know it's sick.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 21:22:30 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: The Leaving Carrot
Message:
Jean-Michel:

I agree that in the last analysis we have more resources that BM. At least, some of us do. Still, it might not be a good idea to get too complacent. There is a lot of money and power on the line, not to mention reputations, etc. A friend of mine was at one time the youngest auditor in Scientology (12) and a personal acquaintance of L. Ron. When he left and denounced the organization in his early twenties they hated him, and apparently had plans to do him harm. He's now a millionaire and unruffled by their threats. But people keep their financial and power interests very close to their heart. With BM, and probably with a good many of his inner circle, an end to the party is truly terrifying. It isn't like he has a day job or anything. From a policy perspective in might be simpler to give him, or his inner circle, a face-saving way out at some point. I mean, they convinced Marion Berry to take some sort of bogus university consortium academic appointment to keep him from running for another term. At least DC can now get a decently competent mayor.

-Scott
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Date: Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 22:34:34 (EST)
From: Joy
Email: None
To: Iola
Subject: re-entry
Message:
My advice re re-entry is way down below, too, at the bottom of the Christian Cult thread. Whatever you do, I hope you have FUN. I wouldn't worry about retribution from BM's organization, just try and fade out gracefully, as thousands have, don't make too vocal a deal about it. (except here, of course)
Return to Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 23:22:39 (EST)
From: Mark
Email: Apple4256@aol.com
To: Joy
Subject: re-entry
Message:
iola
I live here in the divine city( Malibu area )
my wife was afraid of me posting
so I listened to her for a year
i even finally got Life Insurance just in case !
but really , as someone else said,
nobody really gives a toss.
You have to remember Premies
and that certainly included me
had to block out enormous amounts of info
to maintain this particular belief structure-
So unless they are listening/reading
and screwing up their courage to
leave their predigested Truman/GMJ show
they'll just ignore you . . .
And actually I sort of feel a bit of the old 'service'
vibe helping those that are ready to take off their training wheels!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 23:36:06 (EST)
From: Joy
Email: None
To: Iola
Subject: re-entry
Message:
Dear Iola,

Another thing that I think is important if you are seriously considering leaving Maharaji is to find some kind of therapist or group support for leaving. My friend Joe (who posts as JW) and I went for a little while to a couple of therapists who specialized in people leaving authoritarian groups, and it was very helpful in 'making the break'.

But what was most helpful for me, actually, was going to an 'ex-cult members support group' for a few months. These were people from all different types of groups, from the Krsna's to the Moonies to Ananda Marga and various Christian cults, and it was free. It was incredibly illuminating to hear, say, the ex-Moonies tell tales that were extremely similar to what we went through in the ashram, and relate how they felt about their teacher, which was also extremely similar. Since we were taught that all these other groups were cults, but ours was the one true path (they are taught the same thing, by the way) it helps 'snap' you out of your reverie and you can start to see thing in a new and clearer light.

Leaving M. is a very difficult thing to do, since the feelings we have had with him have been very dear to us and meant a lot at the time, and felt so very real; so, as in a love affair, even though you know leaving's the right thing to do, it's very difficult. That's why outside therapeutic help is valuable in breaking the spell.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 23:55:04 (EST)
From: eb
Email: None
To: Joy
Subject: re-entry
Message:
Joy, I agree with you totally. And my sense is that participating in a group such as you describe, would really help to speed the process of becoming free.

I petered out on Maharaji, but it took many years to do it that way. In fact, when I found this forum last year, I still felt too guilty to post for several months. Now, I tell premies I run into that I'm an ex. Like David, it almost feels like service to post my feelings and experiences.

eb
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Date: Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 10:41:50 (EST)
From: red heels
Email: red_heels
To: Joy
Subject: re-entry
Message:
I don't know. Some people find therapy helpful and some don't. When I left, I felt loss and grief, but needed no therapy. Just left and found a new life. Many years later I came back to him and to practicing as he prescribes, and it was a very gentle re-entry. I expected to have to go through feeling ashamed for having criticized him before, or for having left for so many years, but there was none of that at all. I was welcomed with no questions asked. This is why the cult term will never wash with what Maharaji is doing. The doors are too open -- too open to leave, and too open to return. Nobody tried to talk me into staying when I left, although I knew many, many premies in my daily life. Not one tried to stop me and not one tried to lay a trip on me. And when I returned, nobody made me to feel like I stuck out like a sore thumb. It's very respectful of the individual. People need to do what people need to do. For me, therapy has never been helpful, but I know that for others therapy can be very helpful. Just isn't a 'one size fits all' answer to people's problems though...
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Date: Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 12:04:01 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: red heels
Subject: re-entry into M's cult?
Message:
Do I have this straight? You left M and K and then came back?

Ya know, if I wasn't such a trusting and kind person, I'd say your whole post is just a bunch of bullshit, as in 'it's all lies.'

But I would never say I don't believe a word of what you're saying because that would be doubting your veracity, now wouldn't it?

It's very respectful of the individual.

The cult term will never wash with what Maharaji is doing.

Are we talking about the same Goomeraji?
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Date: Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 13:15:37 (EST)
From: Patty
Email: None
To: red heels
Subject: re-entry into M's cult?
Message:
Dear red heels,

Please ignore my husband. He missed his distemper shot again this month. But then...what can you expect from a guy who's idea of sweet talk is ''hit your knees, bitch.''
Return to Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 21:20:44 (EST)
From: red heels
Email: red_heels@hotmail.com
To: Patty
Subject: re-entry into M's cult?
Message:
Thank you, Patty. Was beginning to feel extremely ousted here... On the other hand, 'hit your knees, bitch' sounds kinda fun ;) hehe
Return to Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 12:18:56 (EST)
From: Joy
Email: None
To: red heels
Subject: re-entry
Message:
No, I was never criticized by anyone I know for my departure from Maharaji, also. I have to give my friends credit for that, no one has ever laid the slightest trip on me about leaving.

But with all due respect, perhaps if you had gone through a little therapy and worked through some of the reasons you left (and joined) in the first place, you wouldn't have gone back to the group? I am not trying to criticize you, I just think that often our actions are so subconscious we don't know why we're doing what we do in the way we do it, and therapy can help to uncover some of those motivations. And the kind of therapy I was recommending, very specific for people trying to leave a cult-like situation, is quite different from individual, long-term, ongoing family issues type of therapy. It can be QUITE useful in learning to separate and effectively cut the ties to Maharaji and his group (which you were unable to do successfully), as there always is a danger that one can flip back into it at any point.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Sun, Jun 14, 1998 at 05:34:11 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: Joy
Subject: re-entry
Message:
I am so glad you posted the above helpful information. My ex, who lived in an ashram years ago, like nearly 15, and left very disillusioned, recently broke up with his latest girlfriend. He has been sad, been to a therapist...and guess where he went this weekend...back to the ashram.

It's weird stuff but understandable - but there need to be alternatives, don't there. It's hard to feel alone, that's what I think people need most of all - to not feel alone. I find feeling part of a group of others with like intentions is replacing knowledge extremely effectively.

I was wondering whether in the old tribal days everyone sat around the fire at night like us on the forum and all said their peace. But you just couldnt' be so intimate, could you?
This is probably quite a unique situation - the forum - would you agree?
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Date: Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 04:16:53 (EST)
From: Mirabai
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Confessions
Message:
For those of you who remember me from when I first started posting on the forum might remember some of my debates with Jim and a few others. I became quite involved in the forum and then I felt that I had to break my connection.

The truth is I couldn't handle all the nasty bullying that I received from some of those guys. It's not easy being an open minded premie on the ex-premie site. This was not an easy place to stay. I am no great debater, I don't really have what it takes to be able to battle with really strong minds.

I don't really want to argue my points to anyone or win any fights. I'm taking a plunge and deciding to be more vulnerable on this site. Quite a number of you have inspired me to do so. Because of the honesty and real sharing that has taken place especially recently.

A few weeks ago I tried posting and I was ignored by almost everyone and this made me feel like I wasn't wanted here. Although I went back to the archives and realized that judex had put a really good post in for me and I was really annoyed with myself for ignoring her.

I've come a long way since my hurtful childhood,but I still do have a long way to go and coming out from beneath my protective shields is a sure way of furthering my growth.

that's all for now, I better stop before I start to write my whole life story before your very eyes!

By the way I've actually got use of the computer heaps now because Keith is a soccer fanatic and the world cup is on or whatever it's called.

regards Mirabai.

Robyn, without your welcoming me into the forum I would have felt totally ignored. Alot of the women here (and a few guys)have shown a lot of courage in coming out and this has inspired me to feel safe enough to follow suit.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 04:39:30 (EST)
From: carol
Email: None
To: Mirabai
Subject: Confessions
Message:
Dear Mirabai,
I am glad you are here. I just posted recently under a thread about self-esteem about my distress at having some posts ignored. Then I realized that I do it too for various reasons. (In fact one in particular that I was thinking of was to Keith, but you do not need to tell him!) I'm over it! I know that sometimes I feel more vulnerable than usual, and this is a place where I am growing by being honest and vulnerable and I also desire feedback.
carol
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Date: Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 04:59:22 (EST)
From: Mirabai
Email: None
To: carol
Subject: Confessions
Message:
Dear Carol,
it was nice to recieve your quick response! Your post was one of the ones that inspired me to be more vulnerable, I really appreciate honesty straight from the heart. I admit it's nice to be wanted. It's never been too easy to admit to that sort of thing as so many in my family were and still are pretty non -demonstrative when it comes to feelings of affection and showing love.

We as human beings do like feed back and it's not easy to admit it to our more rational, emotional selves. Especially the part of us that feels stunted. I feel a part of me is still back there in my childhood where I was feeling traumatised, stuck and unable to move.

Despite my feelings of being stuck, I can't help feeling optimistic about something from deep within that is truly free of such states. A knowing that we can move beyond it, with a sincerity and a willingness to couragously face our weaknesses we can overcome all. There is something beautiful and simple within that leads us on our path to a reality that is beyond our wildest dreams.

By the way I was planning not to tell Keith but he's just walked in and caught you out! Bad luck! Keith says hi to you!
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Date: Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 09:59:09 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: Mirabai
Subject: Confessions
Message:
Dear Mirabai,
When I read your discription of feeling optimistic from deep within, a willingness to couragously face our weaknesses and overcome all. It made me think of something I wrote here or at Gerry's 'place' about always since a child I have identified with a core of excellence within. Only when I had a powerful expeience with the word did I see that they were in the same 'space'.
Robyn
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Date: Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 05:04:30 (EST)
From: Cheddar
Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com
To: Mirabai
Subject: Confessions
Message:
I know this is a difficult medium to get used to. It's not quite the same as having a converstion with someone where you can see them or at least hear them and get a reply. Sometimes a lonely looking post will sit forlornly on its own for days and never get answered. This happens to evryone here.

A good idea is to email some of the people you feel some affinity with. And here I must apologise since I am not the quickest of email repliers. Myself, I prefer in depth commubnication by voice, on the phone or in person. But I do respond to all emails posted to me and I know that some here are waiting, and waiting... but I'll get there.

From my experience there are many sympathetic people here who are a great help through email. Katie is a great help there and I think you'll always get a sympathetic and understanding ear there. But all the people I've emailed on the forum have replied most sincerely and helpfully to me. JW, Mike (he's not around now) Bobby, Rick, Joy, VP, Jim (but don't mention the tarot),Robyn and Carol are just a few who spring to mind who have happilly responded sincerely to my emails to them. This is useful to realise if anyone doesn't know it.

And I promise, I will reply to the outstanding emails in the next two days.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 05:32:46 (EST)
From: Mirabai
Email: None
To: Cheddar
Subject: Confessions
Message:
Dear David,
thankyou for your helpful post. I've never thought of sending email before to anyone on this forum. One can feel pretty exposed sharing onesself in a deeply honest way on the forum.

But I do think that is a challenge possibly worth meeting. I remember sometimes going into chat rooms and so many people wanting to chat in private rooms, but I preferred to chat in the open
and have open discussions where everone could join in. Also, ultimately I don't really want to hide or hold myself back, I'm terrified at the prospect of being my true and full self in the open. But I feel herein lies my salvation. Being really honest has always been a doorway to where my true happiness lies.

Hiding and being afraid to come out is a way of being stunted and not blossoming in life.

Yes, there is the added challenge of not being able to express ourselves in person, it's hard to laugh or cry inside a computer.

best regards Mirabai
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Date: Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 16:14:23 (EST)
From: Mirabai
Email: golddiva@wire.net.au
To: Cheddar and everyone
Subject: Confessions
Message:
Hi David, just to let you know that I have just sent you an email and that anyone is also welcome to send me one as well. It's fun to recieve mail, I'm still not over the novelty of the internet;
well not quite! I enjoy watching it being sent as well! Much quicker than the post.

Mirabai
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Date: Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 05:59:18 (EST)
From: Mirabai
Email: None
To: everyone and Jim
Subject: Corrections.
Message:
I said the following:

'The truth is I couldn't handle all the nasty bullying that I received from some of those guys. It's not easy being an open minded premie on the ex-premie site'

Not that I consider myself to be a premie or an ex-premie.

Also to jim
I aplologise to you for leaving our discussion abruptly without an explanation at the time, I just felt I had to drop the forum completely at that point. Although you really did make me laugh sometimes.

regards Mirabai
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Date: Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 08:09:56 (EST)
From: Bobby
Email: None
To: Mirabai
Subject: Confessions
Message:
Mirabai,

Thanks so much for your heartfelt post here. I don't post much here. I used to quite a bit in the past, but for some of your same reasons and some others of my own I don't much anymore.

I'm an ex-premie, that is, I don't see Maharaji as my spiritual master, but at the same time I understand that I got a lot of wonderful gifts through my associations with the structure that represented him. I have long-time dear friends who are both premies and ex-premies.
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Date: Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 16:30:29 (EST)
From: Mirabai
Email: golddiva@wire.net.au
To: Bobby
Subject: Confessions
Message:
Dear Bobby,

thankyou for your very warm post. I havn't really read many of
your posts as I've not been on here regularly but Keith told me a
bit about you and he only has positive things to say about you.

How have you been? It sounds like you've got some pretty big challenges to face. I'm glad that you don't seem to have had any really bad experiences with regard to M and took the best of what he had to offer. Correct me if I'm wrong.

You said the following: 'I'm an ex-premie, that is, I don't see Maharaji as my spiritual master, but at the same time I understand that I got a lot of wonderful gifts through my associations with the structure that represented him. I have long-time dear friends who are both premies and ex-premies.'
'The structure that represented him'Do other people inspire you at this time as well?It's good you received so many gifts

Feel free to email me if you don't feel to post in the forum.

warm regards Mirabai
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Date: Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 18:56:51 (EST)
From: bobby
Email: bobby2@mindspring.com
To: Mirabai
Subject: Confessions
Message:
Nice to hear from you Mirabai, please keep up the good work with sensitive and vulnerable posts!

I had said: 'I'm an ex-premie, that is, I don't see Maharaji as my spiritual master, but at the same time I understand that I got a lot of wonderful gifts through my associations with the structure that represented him. I have long-time dear friends who are both premies and ex-premies.'

You asked:
'The structure that represented him' Do other people inspire you at this time as well?

Lots of people inspire me. Not really anything to do with Maharaji . Maharaji for me was never particularly inspiring for me. The structure and presence around him was.

I was wonderfully blessed back in the '70's in having a safe place to be upon my return from an ordeal that was at times harrowing. This was the premie community of the early '70's. I had had a near-death experience and intense visions for which I was locked up in a hard-core mental institution and abused. I consider the experiences I had as authentic shamanic initiations and have worked for many years to come to terms with them.

My premie experience was a buffer from the starkness of the world. I was incredibly vulnerable. Much of my personae had been shattered by the experiences I went through. Heavens and hells. I might very well not be here today without the relative safety of the premie community.

I received the gift of meditation and was able to practice, a practice that remains as one of my fundamental tools today.

I experienced a lot of love and friendship. I am grateful. Lots of fun there was too. Actually the ashram environments I was in during the early days were pretty crazy. And India 71 and even 72. Wonderful and pretty incredible experiences.

>>>>>It's good you received so many gifts

Yes, I am very grateful.

The kinds of experiences I have had predisposed me to see so much of the world as a very unfriendly place. The good news for me as far as I'm concerned is that I'm a survivor who still believes that love is most important.
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Date: Sun, Jun 14, 1998 at 05:26:42 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: bobby
Subject: Confessions
Message:
The good news for me as far as I'm concerned is that I'm a survivor who still believes that love is most important

Bobby, it is really good to hear you say that. What a vivid life you have lead so far. I'm glad you believe in love. It's not always easy to give, is it, or receive. I don't know why that is.
Regards.
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Date: Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 09:52:52 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Mirabai
Subject: Confessions
Message:
Dear Mirabai,
I am so happy, reading your post. I feel a real connection to you, inside. When you first started posting I read some of your posts but they were all about computer problems and I couldn't help. Then I thought you were a man, not realizing what your 'name' means and was in no hurry to read your posts, not that I don't like and read men's posts here it just happened that way. I guess when I saw the guys 'going after you' I thought the 'boys' are at it again, thinking you were the newest guy on the block.

It was when Keith mentioned you that I began to think you were a woman. The rest is in the archives. I have been connected more strongly to men in my life and over the last few years, although I have dear male friends, I began to see the beauty and value in friendships with women. I think even my woman friends were the same type of woman as I in that they too always had more male friends. I really value the emotional sharing and resonating at the same level I can share with the woman here. It has been a big part of my healing. We have had some very female 'sessions' here. I hope there are some while Keith is at the TV for the sports thing. :)

I wonder if you've seen Carol's posts about being ignored. I see she has posted to you here so...

I wish as all women and men healing and help in healing each other.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 16:05:01 (EST)
From: Mirabai
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Confessions
Message:
Dear Robyn,
your posts are always so positive and supportive. I have really appreciated that.Your posts and some of Carols, Judexs', Katies, Davids and I'm sure a few others, unfortunately there are too many to mention that have inspired me to be more 'real' in this forum.

I have been really impressed with the peoples ability here to share such good quality 'stuff' and,yes it would be great to be a part of a forum that is part of a deep healing process. That is obviously not something that we could get in the EV community.

I feel that men generally have more difficulty in opening out about how they really feel and especially in regard to their more vulnerable side. I've never been a great socialiser with regard to men or women, and have been a bit of a recluse.

So I've not really gotten very close to either, I guess that socially I've been somewhat of a social cripple. I've just felt too kind of broken on the inside,but have felt compelled to put up a brave but false front. Even though there's been a real strenghth, (like the excellence you spoke of) from within,it is in the area of human relationships that there's been real difficulties.

Of course Keith is a major exception here, we worked very hard, especially in the first 3 or 4 years of our relationship(actually it was a bit like a nightmare in those early stages) to achieve a deep harmony between us.

When I was sharing in the early stages in this forum I was just sharing one part of my self, the more mental side of me, which was really ignoring other important 'bits'. That's a habit of mine; to try to hide the weaker side, which really doesn't work for me successfully anyway.

I've kind of envied some peoples ability to appear to succeed and cope in this world. But can can see that my inability to pretend really well has been a blessing in disguise. Anyway that's all for now.

with love
Mirabai

P.S. I hope you have slowed down and looking after yourself better.I'm sure someone will reprimand you if you don't!
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Date: Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 18:03:07 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Mirabai
Subject: Confessions
Message:
Dear Mirabai,
Actually I'm at work 1.5 hours after quiting time and I want to take this computer home!!!
I just wanted to resond to you here. I think/hope there are a number of us who are willing to be supportive here, in email and at magical mystery tour, Gerry's new endeavor.
I also have a hard time pretending very well and have seen it work out for the best in my life. I can't even play the games to the degree I should at my day job. The college, job 2, has a much better atmosphere.
I am so gald you are here and when those sports are done you'll have to insit Keith share the computer or you'll have to get your own!!
Robyn
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Date: Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 20:45:52 (EST)
From: Mirabai
Email: golddiva@wire.net.au
To: Robyn
Subject: To Robyn
Message:
Dear Robyn,

don't worry, I don't have to insist on having use of the computer, I live in a fair household! Keith is very willing to share and compromise.

I don't get to play as much sport as I would like to any way.I would like to try Gerrys new endeavour as well. Anyway I've got to go, I'm in a bit of a rush, see you later.

Best wishes Mirabai
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Date: Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 11:44:09 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Mirabai
Subject: Confessions
Message:
Dear Mirabai -
I wanted to let you know that I did see your post on 'Spiritual Arrogance' and would have very much liked to reply but it was at a time when I could not post on the forum for several days. It was a great post, and I'm sorry you didn't get many answers. Sometimes it's just a slow week on the forum, too - please bear that in mind.

I can understand your not wanting to argue. I feel the same way a lot, and I think it's OK. I grew up in a family where I was constantly told that my feelings were wrong, or that I shouldn't have them, or that I didn't really feel that way. One thing I learned in therapy that really helped me is that you don't have to justify your own feelings! You probably already know this, but it was such a big deal for me when I finally felt that all the feelings I had were actually valid, and I didn't have to try and feel something else instead.

Talk to you soon, Mirabai.
Katie

P.S. Thanks for telling us about Keith and the World Cup! I knew he needed to take a break from the forum, but he was quite mysterious about it. I really like American football, so I can understand completely.
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Date: Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 16:43:01 (EST)
From: Mirabai
Email: golddiva@wire.net.au
To: Katie
Subject: Confessions
Message:
Dear Katie,

I'm glad to hear from you and that you enjoyed my posting. Maybe it was just bad timing or whatever. But I really appreciate some of your posts which I've read recently which are honest and have contributed to people,including myself to start to also be more honest.

Just having the freedom to feel your feelings without being judged, or harshly ignored can be of much benifit,especially to those of us who did not have a harmonious or funtional family background. I can observe that it makes such a difference, where we spent our childhood growing up, but of course this is just part of the challenge that we need to face.

You said:'you don't have to justify your own feelings! You probably already know this, but it was such a big deal for me when I finally felt that all the feelings I had were actually valid, and I didn't have to try and feel something else instead'.

We do lay a lot on our selves, don't we. Acceptance and surrender without judgement is a relaxing process.

Best regards
Mirabai
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Date: Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 17:05:31 (EST)
From: Mirabai
Email: golddiva@wire.net.au
To: Katie
Subject: Confessions
Message:
Katie

Just one other thing I forgot to mention, Keith wasn't trying to be secretive about the soccer. He's not a real fanatic but he's still attached to his home team in England! He checks the results on the internet. Me, I'd rather play soccer, I love the game,I'd enjoy watching it sometimes but don't like all the funny sounds that always seem to come from the crowd when the match is on.

It's hard to casually get enough people together to form a team. I do love tennis though which is much more convenient.

Regards again Mirabai
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Date: Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 16:19:23 (EST)
From: PaulR
Email: None
To: Mira* & All
Subject: Confessions
Message:
I've been lurking around and reading everything on this site. for about 12 hours. This is my first post at ex-p*.org

I have to say that you have created a beautiful space with room for much healing all around.

I like the idea of listening to an 'open minded' premie. Please stay around and let me/us hear what you have to say.

Thank you for informing us that you had felt uncomfortable. I am sure that that is not the intention of the site users. I hope that you can be comfortable here, and me also.

To all I have to thank you for the wonderful heartfelt honesty and laughter which I have felt from you. I log on at the library and have been getting funny looks.

I know/knew a few of you guys/gals and I am sending out E-Mail.

Blessings all around, and thank you pr
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Date: Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 16:53:27 (EST)
From: Mirabai
Email: golddiva@wire.net.au
To: PaulR
Subject: Confessions
Message:
Dear PaulR,

thankyou for your supportive post. I won't deny that I get nervous everytime I log on to read a response to my thread! I'm also glad that so many are responding positively to my 'confessions'

I can relate to your appreciation of this site, it does trigger all sorts of responses including laughter; which is certainly a favourable one.

It would be hard to explain to some of those funny looking people that are noticing your responses. Oh well, they'll just have to wonder!

Look forward to hearing more of you

best regards
Mirabai
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Date: Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 17:23:12 (EST)
From: eb
Email: None
To: PaulR
Subject: Confessions
Message:
Hi Paul,

12 hours, huh? Yes, this site can be rather addictive.

What's your story, that is, if you wish to share it?
eb
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Date: Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 18:05:21 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: PaulR
Subject: Confessions
Message:
Dear Paul,
Hi, nice to see you've 'landed'. I have to go home but I'll be back Tuesday if not before.
Robyn
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Date: Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 21:20:58 (EST)
From: david f.
Email: dkfreed
To: Mirabai
Subject: a response to Mirabai
Message:
I haven't read all of this thread (so I may be covering old ground), but even as an ex-premie, I have found the tone of some people on this forum rather rude. I DO NOT support MB and I feel that there is something basically destructive about his teaching, but I don't feel that I need to trash other individuals because of it. I think that this is shared by others.

My advice: just by-pass that which you find offensive. Also, remember, for some ex-premies overt devotion to BM and his trip seems stupid, is offensive, and is not something that they feel they can compromise their feelings over -- I guess we all have something that pushes our buttons.

best wishes, david.
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Date: Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 20:40:47 (EST)
From: Mirabai
Email: golddiva@wire.net.au
To: david f.
Subject: a response to Mirabai
Message:
Dear David f.,

yes, it feels like a different forum to the one that I came into a month or so ago. Maybe just a lot more real seems to be being shared, not that I've been following it long enough to really know all the different phases that it's been through.

But I will try to ignore that which I may find offensive. This can be a pretty volatile site where people feel a lot of passion about things and I need to be aware of the buttons that are there to be pushed.

Perhaps overt devotion to anything at all may prove to be provocotive because of its associations. I wouldn't throw the word out without careful examination and the temptation to project its meaning in the wrong way.

Best regards Mirabai.
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Date: Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 14:23:42 (EST)
From: bb
Email: None
To: Mirabai
Subject: Confessions
Message:
Hi Mirabai!
Sorry about your welcome. To be fair to us, there were some
real warlike premies who were causeing fur to fly here.

It is nice when they give us a break for a while.

Looks like you will be posting for a while because those games last quite a while! Amonth at least right?

I guess we will have to trust the next poster and not miss them
even when it is hot here.

Glad you spode up about that issue.
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Date: Sun, Jun 14, 1998 at 22:03:02 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Mirabai
Subject: Mirabai, Lonely posts
Message:
Mirabai,

I've been gone, so maybe I missed the posts you are referring to? I post a lot and plenty of my posts have spent time sitting lonely and forlorn out there with space all around them. It's ok, really! Sometimes it's more important to say what you have to than to get a response or worry what anyone thinks about what you have to say.

Sometimes I read someone's post and it is so eloquent that I feel a comment would do it an injustice. This happens with lots of posts that I read. A lot of times this happens to me with JW's posts, for example. I read something that he says and think, 'Wow, that just blew me away! It was so true.' but I don't reply because he said it all, you know? Or I read something that Jim or Robyn wrote and got a good laugh out of it, but don't really have anything funny to add, for another example. So maybe this is happening to some of yours posts as well. People are reading, but they don't always have something to say. Many people read here and don't post, too, BTW.

I'm glad that you and Keith are here. Your stories have been very interesting to follow and also educational. Have a good one! VP
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Date: Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 07:19:27 (EST)
From: Mirabai
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: To VP
Message:
Hi VP,

well, anyway I've had lots of responses so I'm happy now!
It just was a bit extreme before, I'd put a number of posts in and they were being almost completely ignored by everyone.

It was just in a particular context that I didn't know if I was being shunned or not.I agree, It is difficult to respond to every good post.It was good for me to just come out and express how I felt about being ignored. For me that's all part of honest, real communication.

I grew up in an environment where everyone pretended to be all strong and it's important to just let loose and be who I am at any given moment.

Anyway, thanks for your encouraging welcome.

Mirabai
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Date: Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 07:53:05 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: Mirabai
Subject: to Mirabai
Message:
It could be the time difference too (unless you post in the middle of the night - then it's on for young and old)
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Date: Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 11:48:09 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Mirabai
Subject: To Mirabai
Message:
You are welcome:)
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