Ex-Premie.Org

Forum III Archive # 11

From: Jun 7, 1998

To: Jun 15, 1998

Page: 4 Of: 5



Gerry -:- Mystical Talk List Available -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 11:08:58 (EST)
__Katie -:- Mystical Talk List Available -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 11:19:33 (EST)
____Gerry -:- Mystical Talk List Available -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 11:29:36 (EST)
______Katie -:- to Gerry off topic -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 11:41:26 (EST)
________Robyn -:- to Gerry off topic -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 12:02:22 (EST)
__________charles -:- the mystic rip-off -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 23:30:44 (EST)
____________Robyn -:- the mystic rip-off -:- Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 16:09:01 (EST)
______Robyn -:- Mystical Talk List Available -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 11:50:49 (EST)
________Gerry -:- Mystical Talk List Available -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 12:14:06 (EST)
__________Robyn -:- Mystical Talk List Available -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 12:43:29 (EST)
________GM -:- Mystical Talk List Available -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 17:02:44 (EST)
__________Robyn -:- Mystical Talk List Available -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 18:45:21 (EST)
__Robyn -:- Mystical Talk List Available -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 15:37:11 (EST)
____Gerry -:- Mystical Talk List Available -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 16:37:40 (EST)

Rafael -:- doubts -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 10:42:43 (EST)
__Katie -:- doubts -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 11:34:35 (EST)
__Robyn -:- doubts -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 12:25:53 (EST)
__Dairy man -:- doubts -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 12:38:29 (EST)
__Gerry -:- doubts -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 12:39:30 (EST)
____Gerry -:- Cheese dipped doubts -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 13:32:55 (EST)
__JW -:- doubts -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 13:42:58 (EST)
__Iola -:- doubts -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 18:29:19 (EST)
____Robyn -:- doubts -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 18:51:08 (EST)
______x -:- doubts -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 19:09:48 (EST)
____JW -:- doubts -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 19:16:35 (EST)
____Sir David -:- doubts -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 19:51:38 (EST)
__charles -:- doubts -:- Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 01:11:58 (EST)
____Katie -:- to charles off topic -:- Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 10:34:00 (EST)
______charles -:- to charles off topic -:- Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 12:15:49 (EST)
________Iola -:- on topic -:- Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 16:19:18 (EST)
__________JW -:- on topic -:- Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 17:05:45 (EST)
____Robyn -:- doubts -:- Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 16:03:10 (EST)

Judex -:- Documentary -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 06:26:32 (EST)
__Jean-Michel -:- Documentary -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 06:28:33 (EST)
__John -:- Documentary -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 08:21:19 (EST)
____JW -:- Documentary -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 13:59:05 (EST)
______x -:- Documentary -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 18:35:51 (EST)
______Iola -:- Documentary -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 18:37:03 (EST)
________JW -:- Documentary- Sorry -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 19:02:13 (EST)
____Paul -:- Documentary -:- Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 10:01:35 (EST)
______Katie -:- LOTU -:- Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 10:11:36 (EST)
________Paul -:- LOTU -:- Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 15:19:25 (EST)
__________Judex -:- LOTU-Katie, and Paul -:- Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 06:33:20 (EST)

Keith -:- mystical ego trips -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 02:26:33 (EST)
__Keith -:- an experiment -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 08:11:47 (EST)
____Judex -:- an experiment -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 08:21:55 (EST)
______Keith -:- an experiment -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 08:40:56 (EST)
________Judex -:- chit chat -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 09:01:54 (EST)
______Robyn -:- an experiment -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 09:31:37 (EST)
____Katie -:- an experiment -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 09:04:38 (EST)
______Keith -:- an experiment -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 09:08:04 (EST)
________Katie -:- an experiment -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 09:15:22 (EST)
__________keith -:- an experiment -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 09:21:49 (EST)
__________Robyn -:- an experiment -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 09:41:29 (EST)
____Robyn -:- an experiment -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 09:27:53 (EST)
__Robyn -:- mystical ego trips -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 09:17:18 (EST)
____Keith -:- mystical ego trips -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 09:36:22 (EST)
__magic -:- mystical ego trips -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 09:58:43 (EST)

Jim -:- Stephen re addiction (repost) -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 01:40:36 (EST)
__Katie -:- Stephen re addiction (repost) -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 09:47:19 (EST)
____Robyns -:- Stephen re addiction (repost) -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 09:53:24 (EST)
______Stephen Harris -:- Stephen re addiction (repost) -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 19:29:22 (EST)
____Stephen Harris -:- Stephen re addiction (repost) -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 19:22:02 (EST)
______Katie -:- Stephen re addiction (repost) -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 21:20:40 (EST)
__Gerry -:- Stephen re addiction (repost) -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 10:08:47 (EST)
____Selena -:- Stephen re addiction (repost) -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 16:04:07 (EST)
______Stephen Harris -:- Stephen re addiction (repost) -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 20:46:48 (EST)
________Selena -:- Stephen re addiction (repost) -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 20:56:19 (EST)
__________Stephen Harris -:- Stephen re addiction (repost) -:- Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 00:30:46 (EST)
____Stephen Harris -:- Stephen re addiction (repost) -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 19:59:54 (EST)
______Gerry -:- What is the attraction ? -:- Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 01:18:09 (EST)
__JW -:- The Effectiveness of AA -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 13:12:44 (EST)
____Stephen Harris -:- The Effectiveness of AA -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 17:16:07 (EST)
____eb -:- The Effectiveness of AA -:- Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 00:42:34 (EST)
______Katie -:- The Effectiveness of AA -:- Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 10:49:33 (EST)
__Stephen Harris -:- Stephen re addiction (repost) -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 18:16:23 (EST)
____Gerry -:- Stephen re addiction (repost) -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 19:38:03 (EST)

Anon -:- Who or what is BM? -:- Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 19:14:31 (EST)
__Jim -:- Who or what is BM? -:- Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 19:21:25 (EST)
____Anon -:- About the lineage -:- Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 19:44:51 (EST)
____JW -:- Who or what is BM? -:- Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 19:44:57 (EST)
______Anon -:- Who or what is BM? -:- Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 20:03:30 (EST)
________Anon -:- Ok guys.Here it is.... -:- Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 20:57:36 (EST)
__________Mr Ex -:- That's lovely styff!!!!!! -:- Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 23:47:08 (EST)
____________Selena -:- That's lovely styff!!!!!! -:- Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 23:51:30 (EST)
__________Mark -:- Brian this is a keeper ! -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 01:23:38 (EST)
____________Anon -:- Brian this is a keeper ! -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 06:40:47 (EST)
________Keith -:- Who or what is BM? -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 04:18:26 (EST)
__________Jean-Michel -:- Here is DLM's 'official' story -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 06:06:49 (EST)
____________Selena -:- Here is DLM's 'official' story -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 15:52:06 (EST)
____________JW -:- Like Father, Unlike Son -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 16:35:42 (EST)
____________Scott T. -:- Domain of The Age' -:- Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 22:39:10 (EST)
____Stephen Harris -:- Who or what is BM? -:- Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 01:11:13 (EST)

Nigel -:- Licensed until bedtime -:- Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 19:06:37 (EST)
__Jim -:- Good luck, Nigel! -:- Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 19:18:03 (EST)
____Nigel -:- Good luck, Nigel! -:- Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 20:01:27 (EST)
____Gerry -:- A suggestion -:- Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 20:02:48 (EST)
__Nigel -:- Private Eye link -:- Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 20:32:33 (EST)
__Nigel -:- Jim - the Meming of Life -:- Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 20:50:34 (EST)
____Gerry -:- before you go to bed -:- Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 22:04:25 (EST)
____Gerry -:- Jim - the Meming of Life -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 14:27:07 (EST)
__Nigel -:- is not Ratty Ji -:- Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 21:16:01 (EST)
____U.K. Mole -:- is not Ratty Ji -:- Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 21:36:23 (EST)

Gerry -:- Don't Miss It!!! -:- Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 18:48:43 (EST)
__Selena -:- Don't Miss It!!! -:- Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 19:56:01 (EST)
____x -:- Don't Miss It!!! -:- Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 22:44:02 (EST)
______Selena -:- Don't Miss It!!! -:- Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 23:11:00 (EST)
__John -:- I disagree pal -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 10:17:05 (EST)
____Gerry -:- pompous opinion? -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 11:51:34 (EST)
______Selena -:- pompous opinion? -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 16:11:25 (EST)
______Stephen Harris -:- pompous opinion? -:- Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 00:52:26 (EST)
________Judex -:- to Stephen - answer + question -:- Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 07:03:05 (EST)
__________Stephen Harris -:- to Stephen - answer + question -:- Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 15:20:31 (EST)
____________Katie -:- to Stephen - a question -:- Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 19:44:33 (EST)
______________Stephen Harris -:- to Stephen - a question -:- Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 21:08:24 (EST)
________________Katie -:- Sci-fi off topic -:- Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 21:27:00 (EST)
__________eb -:- Romance Addiction -:- Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 16:28:22 (EST)

Nigel -:- Blunting Occam's Razor -:- Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 15:20:26 (EST)
__Stephen Harris -:- Blunting Occam's Razor -:- Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 15:43:55 (EST)
____John -:- it's all my parents' fault! -:- Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 15:53:21 (EST)
______Jim -:- it's all my parents' fault! -:- Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 15:56:16 (EST)
______Gerry -:- it's all my parents' fault! -:- Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 22:33:34 (EST)
____eb -:- Blunting Occam's Razor -:- Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 16:19:39 (EST)
______John -:- eb the bunny -:- Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 16:40:34 (EST)
________bftb -:- eb the bunny -:- Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 18:10:26 (EST)
__________Nigel -:- eb the bunny -:- Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 19:31:01 (EST)
__________JW -:- THANK YOU-- BFTB -:- Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 20:18:55 (EST)
____________Gerry -:- A possible exception -:- Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 20:32:47 (EST)
______________JW -:- A possible exception -:- Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 20:42:48 (EST)
______________nigel -:- A possible exception -:- Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 20:54:58 (EST)
________________Gerry -:- A possible exception -:- Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 21:52:45 (EST)
__________Katie -:- drugs and higher consciousness -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 10:22:52 (EST)
____________bftb -:- drugs and higher consciousness -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 12:22:07 (EST)
____________eb -:- drugs and higher consciousness -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 13:53:29 (EST)
______________Judex -:- drugs and higher consciousness -:- Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 07:16:23 (EST)
________________Katie -:- Thanks, Judex -:- Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 10:54:49 (EST)
________________eb -:- drugs and higher consciousness -:- Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 12:23:07 (EST)
______Judex -:- Blunting Occam's Razor -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 05:41:48 (EST)
____Gerry -:- Blunting Occam's Razor -:- Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 17:20:29 (EST)
__Jim -:- Blunting Occam's Razor -:- Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 16:08:18 (EST)
____Keith -:- Blunting Occam's Razor -:- Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 18:31:16 (EST)
______Jim -:- Sharpen your mind, Keith -:- Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 19:01:00 (EST)
________Keith -:- Thanks Jim -:- Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 19:29:05 (EST)
__________Judex -:- Thanks Jim -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 05:52:01 (EST)
____________Judex -:- to Keith -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 07:15:54 (EST)
______________Jim -:- to Keith -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 12:06:40 (EST)
________________Judex -:- to Keith -:- Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 07:25:20 (EST)
______Nigel -:- Blunting Occam's Razor -:- Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 20:11:06 (EST)
____nigel -:- Blunting Occam's Razor -:- Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 19:55:17 (EST)
______Keith -:- Blunting the sceptical razor -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 04:06:12 (EST)
________Gerry -:- An advertisement -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 14:32:19 (EST)


Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 11:08:58 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Mystical Talk List Available
Message:
Greetings Everyone:

I've been thinking a lot about how Jim feels about mysticism and what Nigel said about aspirants coming to the forum and seeing weeks worth of discussion about Mysteries, etc.

The Forum was originally set up to discuss ''Anything and everything about Maharaji' That is its stated purpose. And this to me is its main function and the most important one, IMO.

I would be the last one to tell people what to do or what they can say anywhere. But as you can see by Rafael's post, premies and aspirants a like come here to hear the truth about M's insidious cult.

Therefore (drum rolls, please) I have set up a discussion list for mysteries, paranormal happening and anything weird you would like to discuss. All here are welcome.

You will have to register and subscribe. The whole procedure takes about two minutes. You will receive postings by e-mail. It won't have the immediacy of the forum format, and I am looking into a way to do that also.

For now, as a quick alternative you can go here to join up. Let the mysteries flow! MagicalMysteryTour
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Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 11:19:33 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Gerry
Subject: Mystical Talk List Available
Message:
Thank you, Gerry.

I at first stated on here that I didn't mind people discusssing their paranormal experiences on the forum. It still doesn't bother me when people do, BUT I do think that it is obscuring the purpose of the forum a bit and that it could cause a real split in the forum, which would have nothing to do with our feelings about Maharaji. To be fair, I am also not that crazy about lengthy discussions about Dawkins, Gould, memes, and evolutionary psychology on the forum.

However, I do think 'spiritual life (or lack of it) after Maharaji' is an important topic which belongs on the froum. Many of us feel that we lost our spritual beliefs as a result of being involved with M, and I submit that that is still a valid topic for discussion. So I guess people will have to decide if their paranormal experiences and/or information about evolutionary psych and related fields belong on the forum or not.

Not sure how any one else feels about this, but I'm sure I'll find out!

Katie
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Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 11:29:36 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Mystical Talk List Available
Message:
Hi Katie,

Many of us feel that we lost our spritual beliefs as a result of being involved with M...

I know this was certainly true for me. For over twenty years, I couldn't countenace the least bit of reference to anything spiritual or mystical. If you think I come on strong here sometimes (I know I do), you should have heard me then.

Thanks for the nice things you said about me, BTW.

PS If anybody tries the MagicalMysteryTour, could you tell me if it works? I couldn't test it as my email address is automatically subscribed.
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Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 11:41:26 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: to Gerry off topic
Message:
Thanks, Gerry
I'm glad you didn't MIND the things I said about you! I hate to speak for other people.

BTW, I have noticed, ever since you got on the forum, that you tend to react very strongly to something at first and then think it over and retract or apologize a little. The reason I noticed this is because I do it too. I've got a quick temper but I usually don't stay mad for more than a minute (but during that minute, everybody better duck!)

Katie

P.S. JW once called that 'losing my religion' phenomenon 'the spiritual rip-off', because you really do lose any sprituality that you might have had before you ran into M. I know this doesn't happen to everyone, but I think it's a very damaging side effect of the whole M trip.
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Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 12:02:22 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: Katie
Subject: to Gerry off topic
Message:
Dear Katie,
JW once called that 'losing my religion' phenomenon 'the spiritual rip-off', because you really do lose any sprituality that you might have had before you ran into M. I know this doesn't happen to everyone, but I think it's a very damaging side effect of the whole M trip.
Exactly what I have commented on as one of BM's greatest wrongs done to Jim!
Robyn
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Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 23:30:44 (EST)
From: charles
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: the mystic rip-off
Message:
Robyn:
I agree, but who is it I am agreeing with? Is it Katie? It was not long after I got here and began reading and writing that I began to see that what I had been ripped off for was the work I was doing in the area of mind expansion or clarification. I think clarification is a better word. I am thankful to Jim, as I have stated, for helping me to be more critical and clear. That is a doctrine (from Zen Buddhism as a matter of fact) that I adhered to before coming to Mr. Rawat. I have never been as woo woo as I became after getting into all the wild predictions and presumptions of Mr. Rawat et al. I have tried everything. And I still am trying things out. But I am a pragmatist. If it doesn't work then on the junk pile it goes. Admittedly there are probably a lot of people who serve the gods of material wealth who think I am anything but practical, but I think that what they are devoting themselves to is, from a purely rational point of view, very short sighted and immediately distracting and troublesome. I have reached a point in my life where I do not have the time or energy to engage them, and anyway most of them are rather smug and/or content. I don't need them and they don't need me. I put carpet in their priggish little or large houses. No matter what size they are they are little to me. But back to the point: Mr. Rawat or my fascination with Mr. Rawat and all that ill-founded practice did me no good. I was left without support or criticism and was told in no uncertain terms that any practice I had engaged in was specious and petty compared to the great and glorious devotion to Mr. Rawat. Now I am regaining that. And I need the help of the others here who have experiences other than simply studious or rational ones.
Thanks,
Charles
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Date: Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 16:09:01 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: charles
Subject: the mystic rip-off
Message:
Dear Charles,
You are agreeing with JW, whom Katie quoted in the post I was replying to. And Who is on 2nd. :)
I've enjoyed reading you here although a lot of your 1st post to Carol went over my head. I'll have to go back to it!
Robyn
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Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 11:50:49 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: Gerry
Subject: Mystical Talk List Available
Message:
Dear Gerry and Katie,
Thanks for your response post Katie, I believe in all that you said and I think I said something similar somewhere once or more below.

Gerry, I did try it and it said I entered something wrong in my email address. I hit back on Netscape and it shot me back here so here I am! I will try again later. To tired and that made me borderline cranky and I don't want to get into a foul mood and seek Jim out to bitch at!
Thoughts on my brief visit there though: Could we know we'd see things written from say Keith in Austrailia? I have all I can do to keep up with the personalities and extra cirricular communications that have resulted from my involvement here. I don't know if I up for a hole additional large group of people. I am going to register, if I can just to see about it. Also I have gotten to know the people here and trust them and know there are a few of us who value this discussion and as Katie said Dawkins, etc is not directly about BM either. I am not going to fight about this, just see where it all goes.
Thanks for trying to help here. I do feel a bit like I am getting my own bathroom and seat in the back of the bus though. I also do see the possible distraction from the sites purpose but how does that differ from the scienctific discussion or for that matter who is a light bulb or an iron!
Robyn
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Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 12:14:06 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Mystical Talk List Available
Message:
Good Morning Robyn,

Sorry to hear you're a little cranky this morning. I won't be advertising this list to anyone outside of the Forum, so you won't have a large new group to get used to. And, in fact, I will have the final say as to whom is subscribed or not (finally some authoritarian power!).

I just wanted to provide a place to talk that would not obscure the main purpose of the Forum. I promise to keep the bathroom clean.

It will work just like regular e-mail and anyone in the world can participate. I hope you will try to subscribe again. With your permission, I could try for you with your address. I'm anxious to see that it is functioning and hope lots of people sign up.

I'm not expecting this to supplant the Forum (obviously) and I have setup a new list for the discussion of evolutionary psychology and memes, a subject I am interested in as well and anyone can get on that list by subscribing here:
ScreamingMemes

Someone else will have to set up the list for the light bulbs and irons discussion, though. :)

PS I just found out it takes a little while for the list to get on the database at ListOne, so try again later today or tomorrow.
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Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 12:43:29 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: Gerry
Subject: Mystical Talk List Available
Message:
Dear Gerry,
Thanks, I didn't understand, maybe. Is this a place you have created? Are you the webmaster :) you are inlisting gopies of your own I know and cutting out a piece of that spiritual power pie for yourself. What about Ray in my foot, he is going to be royally PISSED!
I will try again, and I am not feeling cranky now, just so long as I don't have car trouble, computer trouble, teenager trouble you know the stuff I don't want to deal with without much, much needed rest. If it doesn't work thought I will be happy to let you try. I'll let you know. I must say though that this is where it is for me mostly, now and it could cut into my time here big time, smile Jim. My issues haven't been much about BM and I like this place because of my exposure to things and ways of thinking that are forieng to me. I learn lots of new things here. It suprizes me how strongly I feel about this now that it has come up. As I posted somewhere else I was content to not get into it here but now that there is a small interested group I don't want to just let it go. Oh, well. I'll let you know how my 2nd try goes.
Robyn
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Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 17:02:44 (EST)
From: GM
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Mystical Talk List Available
Message:
These conversations are really affecting me. I am beginning to have my own doubts after 23 years of following Maharaj Ji. I just don't know anything.
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Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 18:45:21 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: GM
Subject: Mystical Talk List Available
Message:
Dear GM,
Thanks, I needed to hear that too, big time. :)
I'd love to know how/why they are effecting you, if you don't mind sharing.
Robyn
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Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 15:37:11 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: Gerry
Subject: Mystical Talk List Available
Message:
Dear Gerry,
I did it! Are you the list owner? Not the webmaster after all :(
I felt so proud!
Robyn
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Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 16:37:40 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: glyng@techline.com
To: Robyn
Subject: Mystical Talk List Available
Message:
You're in! You should receive a confirmation e-mail telling you how to post to the list.

Anyone else who is interested please come on board and start posting. I did it for us. It'll be fun, I promise. Come on. please, (beg, beg). How would you like it if you gave a party and nobody came?



Click to subscribe to magicalmysterytour


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Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 10:42:43 (EST)
From: Rafael
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: doubts
Message:
Hello!
This is the first time I use the 'Forum' so please excuse any errors. I am also not from any englishtalking country so there might be some strange sentences here.
Iīve been listening to M. for eight years but I now feel that I have some doubts. Therefore I have some questions for you who already have had to deal with this situation.

- How do you find meaning to existence without believing what M. is saying to be true?

- What was it that made you feel the first doubts?

- What is it that you donīt like about his message?

- If you have had knowledge for a long time, did you ever believe that it worked before you had your first doubts?

I would be greatful for any answer to any of theese questions.
Rafael.
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Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 11:34:35 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Rafael
Subject: doubts
Message:
Dear Rafael -
Welcome to the forum. I will try and answer some of your questions in a simple way. The first question that you asked was the hardest, and I don't think I have a real answer to it yet, so I'll try to answer that one last.

You asked:

What was it that made you feel the first doubts?
First, I had tried to practice (meditate) for a long time (five years), and never had any real experience of the knowledge. I thought this was my fault and that I wasn't doing enough for Maharaji. I felt guilty all the time, and that was a very bad feeling.
Also, I didn't like what was going on in Guru Maharaji's organization. It was beginning to seem like another religion to me, with a lot of rules to be followed.

What is it that you donīt like about his message?
I think it's very self-centered. I think he encourages people to only think about themselves, and about him, and not to love and care for and try to help other people in our families, our communities, and in the world. Maharaji doesn't seem to like people very much.

If you have had knowledge for a long time, did you ever believe that it worked before you had your first doubts?
I BELIEVED that knowledge worked because Maharaji and the other premies told me that it did. However, I never EXPERIENCED that it worked, or did all the things that Maharaji said that it would do. As I said above, I thought this was my fault, and I felt very guilty about it.

How do you find meaning to existence without believing what M. is saying to be true?
This is a hard question to answer because I don't know exactly what you mean by 'what M. is saying'. If you mean that he is saying that practicing knowledge is the only way to be happy, then I don't believe that is true.

What is the meaning of life is a very hard question! I am sure that you know that. I think one of the reasons people follow Maharaji is because he gives an easy answer, but I don't think his easy answer is true. Anyway, all I can say now is that I am still discovering the meaning of my life.

Regards from Katie
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Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 12:25:53 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Rafael
Subject: doubts
Message:
Dear Rafael,
I think many of us here still value the meditation and just see it as something our human bodies have the ability to accomplish which has ZERO to do with Maharaji. I started to have doubts from early on, I guess. I just did things, went along with darshan, arti, all of it because it was part of this group I was in. It was the discription of the meditation that hooked me and the rest I took as just part of the package. I didn't ever give my whole self/heart to all those things beyond the meditation and when I wanted to physically move and found people getting forcefull and mean and thinking they could get me to stay through force I was out of there fast. I wasn't done with the whole thing yet but it was the start of my developing my own way to keep what I wanted in my life and discard the rest. That process took a couple of years for me.
As far as how to find meaning to life without M, many of us are in a discussion about that right now. Some became atheists, some Christians, Buddists, Mystics, some are still searching and more. Some here have recently seen some of the videos from the 'new' format, for me, anyway, of video's instead of sat sang, they say that some of what M says is true, that is the small seed of truth seekers for the truth respond to and then when they are enveloped into the whole trip the harsher truths are presented slowly.
Personally, I don't like that M claims K is a gift and without him it would not be, Bull Shit! Many of us have proved that wrong! It, the meditation does still work for many, for some it never did, for others, they just aren't interested anymore. We are just a varied group of people who have stumbled here and found this place helpful/useful.
I hope this won't be to hard to understand.
Robyn
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Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 12:38:29 (EST)
From: Dairy man
Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com
To: Rafael
Subject: doubts
Message:
You're the same premie who posted before. Try another idea, this one is too easy to see through.
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Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 12:39:30 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Rafael
Subject: doubts
Message:
Dear Rafael,

First off, your English is excellent, you communicate clearly. I feel very honored by this opportunity to speak with you and only hope I can do it justice. I don't have answers to all your questions, so I will do my best from my own experience.

The meaning of existence: The great existential question. I think everyone must figure this out for themselves, and it is a mistake, in my opinion, to take the simplistic answers offered by M as being the truth.

First doubts: Man, you ask some tough questions! I think it was the ashram experience, and the fact that few people had much of a sense of joy in life, they seemed somewhat dead to the pleasures of living and not much fun to be around. I thought, 'how could this be right if everyone acts so unhappy?'

I thought knowledge would work long before I had doubts although the actual experience of ''practicing Knowledge'' was not a great or moving thing for me.

What I dislike about M's message is that he puts himself on a pedestal above everyone and has turned the practice of meditation into a systematic method of mental, materialistic, physical extortion to those he Lords over.

Hope this helps. Best wishes to you on your journey back to yourself.
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Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 13:32:55 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Raphael
Subject: Cheese dipped doubts
Message:
Raphael.

If you're a poseur, I'm going ''to open a can of whoop-ass.''

Thanks, Rick, LOL.
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Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 13:42:58 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Rafael
Subject: doubts
Message:
Rafael,

I assume that you are sincerely asking these questions because you have them, not for any other reason. So, for the moment I assume you are sincere.

You asked:

- How do you find meaning to existence without believing what M. is saying to be true?

For me, it took getting out of the mindset of M's 'sayings' before i really coul find meaning. In my experience, M offers only the 'belief' in meaning, not the meaning itself. And since I 'believed' I had meaning in my life because I was a premie, I didn't strive to see what really mattered to me in life. I found being a premie a stagnating experience, and it was insidious because I 'believed' I had found the answer. That is what is so delusional about what M says and does.

- What was it that made you feel the first doubts?

I think I ALWAYS had doubts about M. I just repressed them because it was his commandment not to have them. But there was always a part of me that saw through the bullshit. Those doubts came to the surface when I became more and more miserable as a premie. I couldn't pretend I was happy. I also saw how much M didn't care about the premies one bit, how he was so money-grubbing and material, and how he was always asking, really demanding MORE. But it wasn't until I was away from M and his cult for awhile before I realized how unhappy and stagnated I REALLY was. Everything improved immensely in my life after that.

- What is it that you donīt like about his message?

I agree with Katie that M's message it too self-centered, both on the premie's experience, but mostly on 'the master' and the rest of the world, and humanity, are ignored. There is no humanitarian element whatsoever. Moreover, M's message is simplistic, and although some of it rings true, he just says simplistic truisms (like the truth is within you) and then puts himself in the middle, implying that you need HIM to experience the truth.

- If you have had knowledge for a long time, did you ever believe that it worked before you had your first doubts?

Sure, why else would I have stayed a premie for 10 years? As I said, it's a belief system, and, for awhile, I believed it.
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Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 18:29:19 (EST)
From: Iola
Email: None
To: everybody
Subject: doubts
Message:
Like I said, I am having doubts, too. I especially like the journeys entries from David Simpkiss and R.T. (Arti is that you?)
I have always wondered, and wondered, and wondered. (I think Maharaji said that once). All I know is that I have been listening to him and others for 24 years now, so it's a little difficult to turn back. It's sort of like buying a car. No one likes to admit their's is a lemon. Maybe he is the one. Maybe he's not. Maybe you just don't care after a while. I don't know.
I was furious right after I received knowledge. I had tried those physical methods before. However, I cannot denounce the love and glee I have felt at different times in my life. What do all of you think.
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Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 18:51:08 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: Iola
Subject: doubts
Message:
Dear Iola,
Maharaji doesn't have the corner market on love and glee, believe me. I am not feeling either of those things right now but I still know they are inside me and part of me and not a gift from anyone. I am sure it is hard to turn away after you have indoctrinated your life in M's world for 24 years. It is your life but it isn't you. Let this place help you find and explore yourself. Even when I am not at my best this place helps me learn from that experience and we all help each other emmensly with issuses ranging a wide area of topics from M to family illnesses. Welcome and tell us your thoughts as you find them.
Robyn
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Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 19:09:48 (EST)
From: x
Email: None
To: Rafael
Subject: doubts
Message:
Like the man says listen to your heart, trust your instincts. Doubts are natural, anyone who tells you different is probably up to something.You wouldnt be reading these posts if the real person inside you wasn't trying to escape a dogmatic, repressive cult.

good luck x
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Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 19:16:35 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Iola
Subject: doubts
Message:
lola,

I know it's hard to really look at what you are into. It was hard for me too. When I left M in 1983 there wasn't any forum, and hardly any support. There were a few other premies whom I respected who left around the time I did and we kind of supported each other, but I recall it was kind of hard at first, because M had been my whole life for 10 years. Part of it too, is that imbedded in Mararaji's trip is a lot of fear. Fear of 'missing' out on the perfect master/messiah, 'fear' of the wrath of the living god, fear of losing the premie social group and the judgments from premies that will fall on you, etc.etc....... It's really there.

And then there is the 'group high' you get at programs, or at least get sometimes. This is a pretty limited thing, and even that stopped happening for me. It's really no different than what people get from Christian Revival meetings and Amway Conventions.

But, at the same time I was leaving, and equally strong, it was also VERY exciting and I could just feel myself being able to 'breathe' again. Life got so much more interesting and open. And things got better. And then I kind of forgot about the whole thing until this website appeared about a year ago, and I get to talk about all of that with people who know what I'm talking about. It's really great.
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Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 19:51:38 (EST)
From: Sir David
Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com
To: Iola
Subject: doubts
Message:
Glad you liked my journey's entry, Iola. Did you read my post about figureheads. The figurehead is more a reflection of those people who look up to it. Maharaji used our desire to know God by hoodwinking us into believing he was God. This was quite easy for him because all his Mahatmas were saying he was God and if you had a good experience from your meditation it all seemed to fit.

In actual fact, the premies were more sincere than Maharaji ever was. He abused that sincerety we had and used it for his own ends. Even now, it's hard for me to say this. Even now, it can hurt.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 01:11:58 (EST)
From: charles
Email: None
To: Rafael
Subject: doubts
Message:
'meaning to existence' Well, you can supply meaning in any way you like if that is what you want. What if existence doesn't exactly mean anything, doesn't have a meaning? What if that search is a trap or a blind alley? And it is not necessarily a matter of doubt that one does not find ALL of what Mr. Rawat says truthful. I would wonder about anyone who wants to label any thinking you do outside of a prescribed mode as mere doubt or worse still nefarious doubt; that is, faithless, untrue, mean, etc. I think doubt cannot be suppressed and should not be suppressed. I have it from very old traditions in the practice of fostering awakening and/or enlightement that nothing in the mind is to be suppressed. This is bad and ill founded advice. This is the old game of pitting good against evil, neither of which exist, and inviting you to come over to the good side and in the process leave a lot of yourself behind or better said, disown a lot of yourself in the name of being better or good. Existence simply is and you are required to get a clue, so to speak. I furthermore believe that leaving behind any exalted view you may have been encouraged to adopt of Mr. Rawat no matter who he may be is good because you are then required to not adopt a view but actually gain one on your own. I mention this because your question implies a view of that kind.
'first doubts' I guess I already answered that in part. I don't think that what I am up to is doubt really. I don't care about this at the level of faith and faith is the converse of doubt is it not? Faith just doesn't play a part. I personally would equate faith and hope. Divest yourself of hope if you can I would say and devote yourself to the truth. And look for a tradition that will warn you about the pitfalls, the false truths that seem so compelling, a tradition that furthermore is not looking for members. Why would anyone who is devoted to awakening to the truth want members? What good would members be to that search?
'don't like about his message' You know, I haven't looked at his message lately. I hope it hasn't changed, but I've heard it has. I would say that is a bad sign. If this is so eternal and central and irrefutable then why the change? Is it merely a matter of using different similes and metaphors to communicate to different people? It could be. But even if it is the issue of HIS message as in HIS!!!! remains. How would you sum up his message? Does it attach itself inextricably to Him?
'believe that it worked' On one occasion it seemed to work or at least effect a change. I changed for a few minutes. I liked the change. Now, since the changing energy felt to me that it entered me from the top of my head and I was doing nothing like concentrating on the top of my head or really concentrating at all I would have to reserve judgement as to what was causing it. Of course there is the well established fact that belief can cause change all by itself; that is, it can make whatever one believes in seem to be working when it is the belief alone that is doing the job. I would say that fact is worth comtemplating. But what do you mean by 'work'?
Somewhere in here I wanted to offer this short quote from Thomas Cleary in the introduction to a book on Buddhist Yoga. I believe it will be helpful.
'This sutra, or scripture, provides a remarkably detailed course in the philosophical and pragmatic bases of Buddhist Yoga. This is a text that is meant to be read and reread many times as essential preparation by those who are thinking of undertaking meditation exercises of any sort. This procedure was the classical way, and many of the shortcomings and aberrations or modern Western meditation cults can be traced to abandonment of this tradition.' Buddhist Yoga - Thomas Cleary (Shambala Press)
What happened with me was that I gave greater importance than I should have to the few extraordinary experiences I had and because of my indoctrination into the cult of devotion to a person I assigned the source of these experiences to that person with no proof of any kind mystical or otherwise.
charles
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Date: Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 10:34:00 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: charles
Subject: to charles off topic
Message:
Hi charles -
I like your posts, BUT I have a lot of trouble reading them because you don't use paragraphs (or blank lines inbetween your paragraphs). It is a real problem for me when reading them on the computer screen. Just thought I'd let you know this.

Thanks,
Katie
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Date: Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 12:15:49 (EST)
From: charles
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: to charles off topic
Message:
Katie:
Thank you. So that is why Jim told me once: 'Paragraph Charles, paragraph.' I thought I was paragraphing. Thank you again. I will put in the correction.
Charles
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Date: Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 16:19:18 (EST)
From: Iola
Email: None
To: Joy
Subject: on topic
Message:
Dear Joy:

I am shocked that MJ would say you were unconscious when you chose the quotes for 'And It Is Divine.' I won't take that as gospel though because he didn't say it directly to you. I'm a bit of a lawyer--forget the hearsay. Do you have any direct evidence?

No wonder you have doubts.

I never got to speak to MJ or do anything very closely connected to him. The people I met who have always have glowing reports. I used to hear about magical things happening, but I don't anymore.

I used to believe that he could show up in my livingroom at any time. Of course, he hasn't come over yet.

I am surprised that I believed in all that stuff--(maybe it's true). My age and lack of direct miracles has weakened my beliefs.

Do you guys remember the time that MJ was talking about rainbows in Orlando, Florida, in 1975 and a rainbow suddenly appeared over the stage (remember it with the moat around it?). What happened there. It was pretty spooky.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 17:05:45 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Iola
Subject: on topic
Message:
Do you guys remember the time that MJ was talking about rainbows in Orlando, Florida, in 1975 and a rainbow suddenly appeared over the stage(remember it with the moat around it?).

I recall being at Hans Jayanti in Orlando in 1975, and I recall that BM arrived by boat from accross a lake to get on stage. I don't recall that the stage had a moat around it, rather I recall that it was just placed next to the water, so BM could arrive from the rear by motor boat.

I don't recall BM ever speaking at that festival when it wasn't night, so I don't think there could have been a rainbow around the stage. Are you sure you didn't dream it or something?

Does this ring a bell with anyone else?
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Date: Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 16:03:10 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: charles
Subject: doubts
Message:
Dear Charles,
I love this:
Divest yourself of hope if you can I would say and devote yourself to the truth.
Thanks,
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 06:26:32 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Documentary
Message:
That's it folks! I'm getting all excited after posting to Selena down there in '2nd letter to EV' about what I think we could do to be really effective in confronting Maharaji.
We could make our own documentary about him - never mind about hoping someone else will do the story in the press.
Get old footage, interviews with premies and ex-premies. Tell the story/ our story. A lot of material is already collected here on the Forum.
Some of the writers posting here could do an outline, and potentially we could get funding from a TV network or possibly a government body. I mean - it's a great story - the man who would be god.
Well?
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Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 06:28:33 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Judex
Subject: Documentary
Message:
Great ....
and I'll apply to be your representative in France ...
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Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 08:21:19 (EST)
From: John
Email: None
To: Judex
Subject: Documentary
Message:
Judez,
funny you should mention that. I was just thinking this morning as I was ironing my shirt that I was really hooked into the guru trip by the movie 'Satguru has Come'. Whoever made it was a marketing genius. Then that was followed by Who is Guru Maharaj Ji, which actually I was trying to imitate the beginning of in one of my posts yesterday about wanting to find the perfect master. I thought that movie was extremely effective. After that I don't remember any movies other than one from Australia, Keep on Trucking, I think in 1975. I wonder why he stopped making them?

The videos nowadays, in my pompous opinion, don't compare to those early movies. And yeah maybe it's me, but I just can't see who these videos appeal to, other than the already devoted.

Does anyone know who directed or produced those early movies? Who knows, maybe M was responsible, I'm seem to remember the credits saying something like it was all by his grace.

I bet you could take Satguru has Come on to any college campus and get people (namely the ones already flunking out) to sign their lives away to the living Lord. Except we would need someone to pose as the teenage god.

You're right, I agree, let's make a video/movie/documentary. God knows we got the material.
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Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 13:59:05 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: John
Subject: Documentary
Message:
Yes, Satguru Has Come was effective, but I think it was effective in a particular time, like the early 70s. It's production is pretty amateurish and sloppy, but, that British woman who did the narration was great. As we all know, Americans, other than some of the disaffected Irish, hear narration with a British accent as being more authentic, sincere and informed than narration with an American accent. Hence, when she said that at the time BM became perfect master, up there on the stage, that 'all the mahaaaaatmas prostrated before him,' I was hooked. Come to think of it, that movie describes how BM got to be perfect master. We should ask Bal Bagwan Ji what he thinks of it, and also compare it to the lineage research anon and Scott have uncovered. I wonder if all the copies of SHC have been destroyed.
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Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 18:35:51 (EST)
From: x
Email: None
To: Selena
Subject: Documentary
Message:
I think this is agreat idea. I, for one would be interested in seeing a documentary like this even if I had never heard of BM. So much of his power relies on denial and secrecy. Lets do this!
x
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Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 18:37:03 (EST)
From: Iola
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Documentary
Message:
What is SHC?
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Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 19:02:13 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Iola
Subject: Documentary- Sorry
Message:
SHC was just my shorthand for the movie 'Satguru Has Come.'
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Date: Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 10:01:35 (EST)
From: Paul
Email: None
To: John
Subject: Documentary
Message:
John: the film WIGM, was put together by Jacque Sandoz. Jacque stayed in the LA ashram and worked on the film in the DUO offices on Larchmont street where a professional model editing table was installed. Jacque was billed as a 'Swiss filmmake.r' He was swiss but I'm not sure what else he had directed. He was a really nice guy and knew how to make films. I don't know where he is now.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 10:11:36 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Paul off topic
Subject: LOTU
Message:
Did you ever get the LOTU video (mail out here is pretty slow at times...)? Any comments? I know you've seen it before.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 15:19:25 (EST)
From: Paul
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: LOTU
Message:
Yes, thanks. I have been out of town. It still is quite a shock and hard to believe. Seems like lifetimes ago, but not all that far away (if that makes any sense).
Seeing the film got me thinking about a book I read some time ago so I went to the library to get it and reread it. It's called 'Radical Departures' written in 1984 by a Toronto psychiatrist who studied the involvement of 800 young people who joined various groups/cults(religious, political,therapeutic) including DLM. His focus is on the 'joiners' and why they joined(i.e. lack of self, inability to separate from parents. His findings suggest that the particular cult was not significant and that it is the 'joiners' who are similar.Good topic for a new thread which I plan on starting when I've finished with the book.

Thanks again for the tape. The check is almost in the mail.

Paul
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Date: Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 06:33:20 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: Paul and Katie
Subject: LOTU-Katie, and Paul
Message:
1. Katie - I got the LOTU video (thanks) but it doesnt work in my system. Still thinking whether it can be fixed (my video player is VHS - but I just get broken up lines. I can't think what the problem is. I know our tv systems are different - ie PAL/NTSC but I don't know if that's the reason) - just to let you know why I haven't commented on LOTU.

2. Paul I will be very interested in that post once you finish the book. Thanks.
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Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 02:26:33 (EST)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: mystical ego trips
Message:
It had to happen.
Well done Peter (below somewhere).
All this mystical chat is about trying to be special and is the same kind of mystical ego trip that Maharaji is on.
Yawn..yawn...no, try again.
The reason for these mystical threads is because there is so much athiestic and materialistic nonsense discussed on this forum that it is important for the sake of some balance to present a little of the other perspective.
And because some of us have had little opportunity to share our experiences ...and that puts us in the same general category
as everyone else.
Or does scientific-athiestic-materialistic-scepticism rule this forum?
Are the above types on a massive scientific, athiestic, materialistic , sceptical(a la randy) ego trip a bit like carl sagan?
Or should mystics like myself shut up and piss off and leave you oh so level headed ones alone ?
One other point here....what exactly does it mean ...to be a mystic?
I've said it before ....for me , mystical is natural.
We are more than biological entities.
Brains are instruments.
My brain is not my CREATOR.
If I am wrong then I'll place a brain on an altar and worship it.
Sceptics are mystics in denial!!
Ego's that say 'you mystics are on ego trips , unlike us normal humble little realists' are limiting their minds and their experiences ....and for what? To play the game of normality? To be just regular guys?
Hey....WE ARE ALL SO SPECIAL...SO MYSTERIOUS...SO DIVINE... BUT OOOPPPS , SORRY , we should all play the game ....little ol' biological mutant me....wimper, wimper!
i'm just a man who is a brain,
nothing can change that now,
mystics are all quite insane,
mr. randi please take a bow.

Anyway, I shall not let the mystical threads dry up.
You can hound Maharaji. And I'll hound the sceptics.
Keith
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Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 08:11:47 (EST)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: an experiment
Message:
I shall do an experiment .
I shall do a Tarot reading for the forum.
A five card spread , with my most special cards.
Please switch to another channel if this offends you.
The query I shall posit is a simple one;
'Can we please have a perspective of the forum itself?'
The first card will be the theme and the central focus of this reading.
The card reads 'the war has reached a critical point...
between Atlantis and Mu.' the pictograph looks like a nuclear war....an atomic bomb exploding and other lesser explosions. This card represents a tension between the thinking, yang, masculine energy against the feeling , yin, feminine energy. It could suggest the friction between the forum and Maharaji. Or it could suggest the friction between the sceptics and the 'mystics'. Or both.
This card suggests that sooner or later this friction may culminate in all out war!?
The second card will represent something of the background of this conflict.
It reads 'Maya...THE FIELD OF THE LORD.'
The pictograph is of a babies pram and a wheelchair ...and on the horizon there is a setting sun (A huge spiritual sun) and an eclipse of a sun and a moon.
This seems to suggest that the background to this conflict is Maharaji's claim to be the LORD and to be the one who understands the ways of Maya ...and knows the infinite( the spiritual sun) and the finite and knows how to play in 'this field of the Lord'.
The third card will be relating to the present time.
This card depicts a robot with buttons.
This is certainly suggestive of the computors...and the internet. It also suggests that there is something
'mechanical' about how this conflict is being fought ; it is a cyber-war.
The forth card relates to where this conflict is likely to go next....in the short term.
It reads ,'don't worry you can do no wrong'.
It depicts a man trying to trim his beard with a pair of scissors. This is suggestive of a message that the forum people should not be concerned about the image they are presenting....for they are doing it right. Just be yourself !
However we as individuals on the forum present and express ourselves we are on the right track.
The last card will represent a longer term view.
The message is ' I come from a differant planet' and the pictograph is of deep space and the planet earth is seen from a great distance.
This suggests to me a sense of a big picture....a larger reality...a more cosmic perspective and triggers the thought that this war may be the war that needs to be fought in order for a greater synthesis to occur.
You are all welcome to interpret these images if you feel to.
You are also invitede to ask any serious questions ...and therefore continue the experiment.
I could use differant cards too as I have quite a collection.
Keith
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Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 08:21:55 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: an experiment
Message:
Dear Keith,
a small contribution, from 'mum's book' (my daughter gave me this little book of sayings - you know the kind - open the page - instant wisdom.) So I've done one now for the Forum and here is the sweet little answer:

'Expect the best;
convert problems into opportunities;
Be dissatisfied with the status quo;
Focus on where you want to go,
instead of where you're coming from;
and most importantly,
Decide to be happy,
Knowing it's an attitude,
a habit gained from daily practice,
and not a result or payoff.'

Denis Waitley
The Winner's Edge

By the way, my daughter tonight said she wants to give it a try and come back to live with me (during the week, instead of me being a weekend parent).
What more can I say! Things are changing in my life!
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Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 08:40:56 (EST)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: Judex
Subject: an experiment
Message:
I can feel the excitement mixed with a little caution.
Judex , I'm glad that life is looking brighter.
And thankyou for the positive message.
It has found a response and I'm smiling.

Good wishes for the relationship between you and your daughter. Does she know about this forum?
Keith
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Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 09:01:54 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: chit chat
Message:
Yes she knows and she appreciates that I enjoy it and it's kind of like a grown up having 'pen pals' ???
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Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 09:31:37 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: Judex
Subject: an experiment
Message:
Oh, Judex,
God, I am crying I am so happy for you and your daughter! Yes, dear, things are changing for you! And to keep things mystical here I am also feeling a strong tingling in the area of my head, and heart from the moment I read that news. You know the high level of support you have here to help you soar.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 09:04:38 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: an experiment
Message:
Keith - what deck are you using?
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Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 09:08:04 (EST)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: an experiment
Message:
A little known deck created by Morgan Robbins.
It doesn't have a name. I call it my Zen pack.
Katie, do you use tarot?
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Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 09:15:22 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: an experiment
Message:
I used to, before I got Knowledge (Tarot was NOT looked kindly on in the early premie days). I learned on a deck called 'T - the New Tarot for the Aquarian Age (not the same as 'the Aquarian Tarot'. I was taught how to use this deck by a person, so know it really well. It's also Bobby's favorite deck - do you know it? He still uses it for meditation.

There are some good tarot links on the web, plus a newsgroup (alt.tarot), if you are interested.
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Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 09:21:49 (EST)
From: keith
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: an experiment
Message:
Yes Katie, I do know the Aquarian deck but it is not one I use.
I don't want tarot links right now as it hasn't played a big part in my life over the last year or so . I still do the odd reading for friends.
I have also studied and used the I. Ching and Astrology.
Thought it might be interesting to bring these 'tools' to the forum and see what happens.
Keith
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Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 09:41:29 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: Katie
Subject: an experiment
Message:
Dear Katie, and Keith,
I don't know what Clo's cards are called but she calls them very male. She tried to switch after years with those cards but now just feels more comfortable with them.
Jessica, my daughter has round cards with strong female. I think it is wonderful how she uses them because after reading how you are supposed to use them she has grown into her own ways with them. She has no specific patter to lay them out into and so I don't know how this effect positonal meaning. I just remember her reading Clo's once and being totally amazed by the intense feeling she had during the reading and the cards took the position of flowing in an upward motion and opening up at the very top which she related to Clo's energy flow up and through her body and out of the top of her top chokera(sp) and also excuse my ignorance and not know the name. That although amazing enough was also the flow of that energy from the word that happened to me after slowly consuming Alice B. Toklas granola cookies for many days. A practice we adopted for a time on that premie farm I lived on. My instigation, I was the house mother. Anyway that column of energy, the same that the mahatma put into over drive at my knowledge session was just rapidly pouring energy right out of the top of my head! It was wonderful!
Robyn
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Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 09:27:53 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: Keith
Subject: an experiment
Message:
Dear Keith,
My dear friend Clo has been reading my cards for 14 years. My daughter does it too but has only read my cards once or twice. I don't understand her hesitation with me as we are very close but I respect her feeling.
I had never heard of these cards before Clo and just did it as a curiosity, no judgment and over the years I have seen there truth. I see a very positive truth in your reading on the forum. I'd just like to give a brief explination of my latest, strongest, most often read from my cards lately. The message is very positive, I have come from deep turmoil and am through the worst and cards of emotion(cups in her deck), abundance(penticals in her deck) and wands(growth) are scattered through out all card positions. Many major arcana (sp) as she calls them are stronger.
At first my card readings were dark and morose and then full of turmoil and now full of bright promise.
And we continue.
Robyn
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Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 09:17:18 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Keith
Subject: mystical ego trips
Message:
Dear Keith,
This is why I am so into this topic:And because some of us have had little opportunity to share our experiences

That's the point, in my estimation. I experience this stuff. Should I just consider myself insane and that these experiences prove that. I rather choose a more positive reaction toward myself. This forum has been a wonderful outlet for me on topics that almost all of my friends in my physical world can not approach. I have pretty much concluded that this forum was like my friends as far as talking about this topic and I could/can accept that and still appreciate what I do get from being here but I have felt very happy to be able to expose my whole spiritual self here in these threads.

The science that I've read here, although not my natural element, has been benificial to me. I have learned things I didn't know and that is always good. I have seen another side and respect what all of you who live by that sword. Geography, at least where I went to school is a BA degree. I am not a scientist. I reside on a much more intuitive level. I do not discard science but I am skeptical of the medical profession which as a diabetic has become an unwelcome intruder into my life. I think that some scientist have tunnel vision and don't want to deviate from their proff but I do not think they are all like that. There are medical doctors and professionals who work with medical science in conjunction with many other less scientifically 'proven' healing methonds with shockingly positive results.
As I write this I think if I have been able to see the scientific side of issues as posted here than what is wrong with my hoping that I could not only share with those here who feel the same as I do but even further, to hope that those who disagree would enjoy seeing another's point of view and work on considering its validity for at least those who experience these things.

You are now all welcome to come on up and kiss Ray, the cowboy in my foot, maybe it is he and not I who is the true Sat Groovy! :(
Robyn
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Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 09:36:22 (EST)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: mystical ego trips
Message:
Robyn,
I agree with your sentiments.
I like to sometimes present a more extreme anti-science stance only as a counter and perhaps a mirror of the extreme anti-mystical stance taken by some here. In reality I respect science and also learn much from those more educated in the sciences than I.
If only more people from both sides of the great divide would try and synthesize ....so much could be achieved.
The war between atlantis and mu could be healed...and this war is both occuring with the individual and in society .
Viva la harmony!
Keith
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Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 09:58:43 (EST)
From: magic
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: mystical ego trips
Message:
Skeptics are mystics in denial??

Thay's great.
Keep breadthing,
magic
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Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 01:40:36 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Stephen re addiction (repost)
Message:
Anne Wilson Schaef. Jeff Diamond I think is another. If you
think my figure is wrong, what do you think the correct % is?
This is my surmise: I don't think you have read anything on
this topic to base your opinion on. I think you objected because
if true, it is very unpleasant news. Not because my % is wrong.
As for addiction. Right now, I am addicted to sugar. I make
sure I have sugar, cookies or whatever every day. I feel
uncomfortable without it. I have gone to the 7-11 at 3am
to get candy or cookies. Same thing with pot. If you smoke
every day, feel uncomfortable without it, take risks to
obtain it, and spend money better used for something else
it is called an addiction. Does bad habit sound better.

I have been in and out of cults for 25 years. Starting with
Gumaraji when he was 13. I got in AA 11 years ago when I
was close to dying. I hardly ever go to a meeting anymore.
Speaking from experience the emphasis in a cult is money.
AA can be free or just very cheap. Trying to call AA a
cult is the spastic imagination of goofball intellectuals
who are themselves victims of addictive and cultish mentalities,
their own. I hope to dispel the illusion that I am pompous.
Jim, you seem more reasonable than that braindead vomiter.
Thanks for the welcome to the NG. Actually I'm looking for
solutions to what to do when you don't drink, drug, or
attend meetings of various spiritual flavors.
Regards,
Stephen


Stephen,

I just want to say that I don't think you're pompous, not from the little you've said here. You do seem to be someone who's adopted the AA ptich but I understand how that works a bit -- you're desparate and defeated at one point, AA works and it's not as if they allow you to enter the program on your own terms. So, you bite the bullet, jump in and, if it helps, there's your proof right there. Pompous? Hmm. I don't know. For me, I wouldn'ty call you that until I saw how you dealt with questions or challenges to those precepts you had to adopt to get on the AA bandwagon (pun admitted).

Okay, so who are Shaef and Diamond and where do they get their stats? As for my guess, well I don't know. It's a pretty big and in large part bague subject isn't it?

Here's something I think about addiction. One could be addicted in the classic, severe physical dependency way, to some substance in the extreme. Let's say that for argument's sake if that person went a day without X they'd die (no, not THAT X, just X). But what if their dependecy in no way whatsoever affected the rest of their life. Addiction? Yes. Problem? Maybe not.

On the other hand, say someone had a mild habit that really amounted to just chronic bad judgment. Fact is, the person could stop anytime they really wanted to, they just don't want to. But this habit really screws up their life. Yeah they know it, but they're still into it. Addiction? Maybe not. Problem. Yes.

So it's kind of like a matrix, isn't it?

After all, we've evolved with certain addictions, haven't we? Are Koalas addicted to eucalyptus? They'll die without it. Hmm.

As for AA, I wouldn't say it has all the hallmarks of a cult, but it does have some. It does, in essence, demand an unchallenging accpetance which is perpetually reinforced by involvement. Doubts aren't countenanced but are dismissed and explained away without debate. On the other hand, it doesn't seem to be set up for anyone's personal aggrandizement or profit. That makes it a lot less treacherous than some authoritarian structures. So, like Gerry, it's a bit of this and a bit if that. :)
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Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 09:47:19 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Stephen
Subject: Stephen re addiction (repost)
Message:
First, Stephen, I want to say that Gerry is actually a pretty nice guy. He tends to react really strongly at times, but he doesn't stay mad, if you know what I mean. I hope you can still stay open to the possibility of communicating with him.

Re: AA. You probably read my story in the thread on the 12 Steps which has since sunk into the inactive zone. I am a child of two alcoholic parents, one who has been in recovery for 13 years (she first got sober and joined AA 26 years ago, though! And has been through four rehabs), and one who never stopped drinking and is now dead. My two siblings and I have all gone to Al-Anon and ACOA at some point. My sister is now very involved in ACOA and it's helped her a lot. She is really working the steps; but she and I don't think that my mom ever really has (too much guilt to face.)

Anyway, I was introduced to AA when I was 16, and I bought the whole message hook line and sinker. It was like a miracle that my mom had actually stopped drinking, and I firmly believed that all the things she said about AA were absolutely true. I didn't even start exmamining my beliefs until last year, when I read the book 'The Guru Papers - Masks of Authoritarian Power'. (By the way, they don't call AA a cult in this book, they call it an authoritarian system.) I highly recommend that you get this book and at least read this chapter - it is one of the best explanations of addiction, and how authorit causes addiction that I've ever read. It was a true revelation for me and really made me examine my beliefs about AA and the other 12 Step programs.

I don't have a problem with people being in AA or other 12-step groups IF it works for them, and I think that working the steps does work for a lot of people. What I object to is the 'only way' beliefs that go along with AA. Primary among these is 'AA is the only way you can really stop drinking, otherwise you are just 'white-knuckling' it.' (I really believed this even though I had known several people who were able to stop drinking without AA.)

I also have problems with 'You have to go to meetings.' In my case, I was always being pushed to go to Al-Anon and ACOA meetings and I hated them. I thought they were full of people complaining and saying the same things every week. I did go to a group therapy for ACOAs and liked that very much, but I never felt that people GOT anywhere in Al-Anon and ACOA. Also, since joining this forum, I have realized that meetings reminded me of going to satsang, which made me even more adverse to going.

Anyway, this is getting long, but I did want to say that I respect your continuing sobriety and even your involvement in AA, but I don't think anymore that AA is the ONLY way for everyone. I don't think ANYTHING is the only way for anyone anymore. I was more programmed to believe in AA as 'the only way' than I was to believe in Maharaji as 'the only way', but I have changed my mind.

Regards from Katie
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Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 09:53:24 (EST)
From: Robyns
Email: sundogs
To: Katie
Subject: Stephen re addiction (repost)
Message:
Dear Katie,
I don't think ANYTHING is the only way for anyone anymore.
My sentiments EXACTLY!
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 19:29:22 (EST)
From: Stephen Harris
Email: mulcyber@pacbell.net
To: Robyns
Subject: Stephen re addiction (repost)
Message:
I agree with this. I think AA is the most effective way
for strongly habituated drunks, but it does not work
for everybody> Rarely have we seen a person fail who
thoroughly follows this path. Rarely means exceptions.

Regards,
Stephen
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Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 19:22:02 (EST)
From: Stephen Harris
Email: mulcyber@pacbell.net
To: Katie
Subject: Stephen re addiction (repost)
Message:
Hi Katie,

I hardly ever go to AA meetings anymore. Obviously I
am not addicted to AA. Getting a highscool diploma
involves authority. But school is not regarded as a
cult. There is a backlash to cults going on which
is just another type of extreme thinking. I don't
think society is mature enough to work without rules.
So at this stage authority is needed. How well do
kids do without a parent providing structure. AA works
best with people who are far gone into alcoholism.
It is hard to convey to someone who is 20 that alcoholism
is progressive. A 45 year old wino who was once a 20
year old college student knows this.

There is also a difference between what alcoholics
say at meetings and what the Big Book say. Because
someone quits drinking does not make them perfect.
The BB claims to be the most effective way. It was
designed for people who could not quit on their own.
And for people who had tried various other ways before
getting to AA. AA has proven to be just about the only
way to get skid-row drunks sober. And they need a lot
of structure because they can hardly think. Alcoholism
used to be considered about as untreatable as brain cancer.
I think that the sticking rate in AA is about 10% and
other methods are worse. I went through a treatment center
first and there were only 2 of us left out of 33. That
was 3 years ago. Some treatment centers make big bucks
and you cannot trust their statistics. Therapists make
a case; but they charge 40-80 dollars an hour and I do
not trust their statistics either. AA can be free or cheap.

As for ACA, the main benefit is education that there are
patterns learned in childhood that lead to selecting partners
that produce lousy relationships. And if one finds this pattern
occuring in one's own life there is something to do about it.
I don't know much about Alanon. And I think any method is
going to have its faults and be subject to criticism.

Regards,
Stephen
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Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 21:20:40 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Stephen Harris
Subject: Stephen re addiction (repost)
Message:
Dear Stephen - thanks for taking all that time to respond to everyone in this thread - whew! I just wanted to say a few things: first that I hope you keep posting on the forum, and secondly, that there are other past and present participants in 12-step groups who post on the forum too. We usually don't discuss AA much, except as it pertains to our past histories, and as you said, it's not really what you wanted to talk about.

If you can get a copy of 'The Guru Papers', I highly recommend it. There is only one chapter on 12-step groups - most of the rest of it is about cults (first half) and other authoritarian structures (sencond half). I think you might enjoy reading it, even if you didn't agree with everything in the book (I don't).

Regards from Katie
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Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 10:08:47 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Stephen
Subject: Stephen re addiction (repost)
Message:
Stephen,

So maybe you aren't pompous. I'll grant you that much. However, you did come in here bandying about vague and unsubstantiated claims and you did insult the people here by saying they (or 90%) are addicted to religion or romance. Don't you think this is a little off the wall if not pompous?

I won't pick on you, I see you facing some challenges in your life presently. I'm sure you have a lot to contribute to the conversation. Could you just be a little more reasoned in you thinking and try to avoid great sweeping generalizations?

I hope to dispel the illusion that I am pompous.
Accepted

Jim, you seem more reasonable than that braindead vomiter.
I know you are but what am I?

Sorry, I couldn't resist. I'll be nice, I promise, cross my heart and hope to die. :-{ )
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Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 16:04:07 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: Stephen re addiction (repost)
Message:
yeah, I almost wrote to Stephen too because I didn't want him scared off. but, hey:

Trying to call AA a
cult is the spastic imagination of goofball intellectuals
who are themselves victims of addictive and cultish mentalities,
their own. I hope to dispel the illusion that I am pompous.


ahem..imagination? Right. I was told - yelled at in front of a group actually - that I was going to die if I didn't go to AA meetings and work the steps. This happened on more than one occasion. Just because some doctor helped me get addicted to Xanax and Ativan. For panic attacks. A pretty legit reason if you ask me. But, NO, they said I was an addict. Still here 10 years later. And healthy. Not totally abstinant and I dont' go to meetings and I don't have a 10 year pin but I would hide it if I did, just like I hid my pictures of M because I was too embarrassed to have normal people see them..If my perception is that they are a cult, well, imagination has little to do with it. My Way or the Highway Mentality, slogans up the wazoo. Call it what you like. And if it works for you go for it. but hey, I happen to be proud of being a goofball intellectual.
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Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 20:46:48 (EST)
From: Stephen Harris
Email: mulcyber@pacbell.net
To: Selena
Subject: Stephen re addiction (repost)
Message:
When I first got to AA I thought I would meet sober
clear thinking people. What I found were people a
lot like myself. People who had opinions that were
not very rational. Some of them would not have
gotten out of institutions but for budget cuts.

There is no spokesperson for AA who spouts
absolute truth. When you have been on binges
that last 10 or 15 years it takes a long time
to regain sanity. Many people on this forum
are in recovery from being in a cult. Getting
out of a cult does not make a person well
overnight. There are going to be people who
offer outlandish opinions on this forum. Does
that make this forum a cult? AA is says take
medicine if it is prescribed. If a person takes
drugs that are not prescribed because they are
addicted, what is the right word to describe them.

Well, I've touched basis with several people. So
since I do not attend AA meetings I am going to
quit defending them and post lest frequently.

Regards,
Stephen
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Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 20:56:19 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: Stephen Harris
Subject: Stephen re addiction (repost)
Message:
Hi Stephen
I want to apologize for being so intense about your AA post. It brought up some old feelings. I tried so hard to get into AA, and I just couldn't and I truly believed I needed it at the time. I had been convinced of that in treatment. So it was scary and it hurt really bad that I couldn't get into it but I just couldn't and it made me really angry that I kept hearing I could be one of those constitutionaly incapable of being honest with themselves defectives. This spanned several years.
It's not your fault and I shouldn't have lashed out like that.

- goofy as always Selena
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Date: Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 00:30:46 (EST)
From: Stephen Harris
Email: mulcyber@pacbell.net
To: Selena
Subject: Stephen re addiction (repost)
Message:
OK, I had a goodly part in writing some words that I knew
would antagonize. I will agree you can find a goodly number
of hyprocrites in AA who drink a suspicious amount of coffee. :-)
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Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 19:59:54 (EST)
From: Stephen Harris
Email: mulcyber@pacbell.net
To: Gerry
Subject: Stephen re addiction (repost)
Message:
Well, I gave a couple of sources. Do I think this estimation
has room for error, yes. Who better to estimate this than
therapists who have been in practice for 20 or more years.
I will see if I can find a web source to collaborate it.

It is a shocking idea. 90% is for our entire society,
one type of addiction or another. So most of us have
been in this cult and maybe others. What is it about
our thinking that makes us join a cult in the first
place. And then fight so hard to hold on to our beliefs
when the evidence starts to mount this is a flimflam?

How is our thinking different than other people who
never get involved with cults. The easy answer is
gullibility. But why are we more gullible. There are
a good many therapist who think the root cause is
addictive thinking learned during childhood.

I was addicted to smoking cigarettes. An addict is
someone who practices something addictive which is
not good for them. I don't have the moral baggage
attached to the concept of addictive thinking. The
idea of being a bad person. It surprised me to find
you with this concept. Though it is not uncommon.
I guess I expected people who had gotten themselves
out of a cult to have done more thinking about the
underlying reason why they were there to begin with.
What it said about oneself and thinking process.

I think this story is funny, but perhaps some people
will be sensitive to it. My ex was seeing a therapist.
She announced that she was no longer going to the therapist.
I asked her why.
She said she didn't have a problem with what the therapist
said about me, but what the therapist said that meant about
her, for choosing to be in the relationship with me.
She didn't want to deal with that information, so she quit.

Placidly,
Stephen
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Date: Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 01:18:09 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Stephen Harris
Subject: What is the attraction ?
Message:
Stephen,

You said What is it about
our thinking that makes us join a cult in the first
place.


I think this is a very important question and deserves to be examined. For me, the sense of certainty was what attracted me to the BM in the first place. I thought I was hooking up with the ''Perfect Master'' of our time.

I needed some one or something outside of my self, greater than myself, to tell me what to do, how to think, and what to feel in life, because basically, I did not trust my Self.

I placed my trust in this individual, and came to realize I was only cheating myself by submitting to this someone who purported to know what's best or better for my life than I did. This is the basis of all authoritarian domination.

It is a trick as old as humankind and we are not alone in falling for it. Fortunately I got out of it relatively cheap. The trick now is for us to be here so other people can avoid the same thing, by learning from our experience.
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Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 13:12:44 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: The Effectiveness of AA
Message:
I won't get into the whole discussion of whether AA is a cult. I do agree with the authors of the Guru Papers that it's an authoritarian system.

The point I wanted to mention is that I have read that studies show that AA is really no more successful that 'cold turkey' is actually stopping alcohol consumption. It does work for some people with drinking problems, I think only a small minority in reality, but it is no MORE successful than people just stopping on their own without AA.
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Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 17:16:07 (EST)
From: Stephen Harris
Email: mulcyber@pacbell.net
To: JW
Subject: The Effectiveness of AA
Message:
Authoritarian is much different to me than a cult. Though
authority from a charismatic leader is nearly always present
in a cult. You find authority with a boss in a job or taking
calculus at school. There are people who can quit drinking
on their own. Most of the people who come to AA voluntarily
have tried and tried to quit on their own and cannot.
There are a large portion of people getting to AA who feel
they are powerless over alcohol. Most of them arrive in
desperate straits. They have what is called alcoholic thinking.
Like they think that the cop who pulled them over for drunken
driving did so, because the cop had it in for him rather than
the cop observed them running a stop sign or driving in the
wrong lane or whatever. This thinking does not change in a
few days. But shortly after such an individual arrives they
want to make changes in the Big Book. They are usually told
'your best thinking got you here'. There are thousands of
people who are in recovery using AA methods. When text or
policy is changed it is done by voting by all the groups.
AA is not interested in changing policy on a weekly basis
in response to the input of people with a few months of sobriety.
There are hundreds of these people, and a typical trait is
to want to 'rewrite the Big Book'. People with long term
sobriety do not trust the thinking of newcomers. Newcomers
are people who by in large have proven they can't quit
drinking on their own, by their best thinking. That is why
they walk through the door. The people who can quit 'cold
turkey' don't have the same compelling reasons to come to AA.
People who have experienced the difference in alcoholic thinking
and sanity see the difference; they are not going to accept
the philosophical, intellectual reasoning of people who do
not see the difference or think a difference does not exist.

Regards,
Stephen
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Date: Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 00:42:34 (EST)
From: eb
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: The Effectiveness of AA
Message:
Dear everyone,

I have a brother who takes everything to the limit. When he got clean and sober, he lived in a sober-living facility for 1.5 years. Now, after 14 years, he attends AA meetings infrequently--told me he realized he couldn't live his life in a meeting. Although he dropped out of the eighth grade, he's got a great job and competes in pro motorcyle races on the weekends. Moreover, he has humility and wisdom that amaze me. (We didn't think he'd live to see 18).

My sister was clean for 5 years, sober for 10, and then 'went back out' so she moved back into a recovery house a few weeks ago. She battles her mind constantly, trying to implement the steps and wisdom of AA. She seems to need institutional living to support her program.

My father lived in a sober-living house when he got sober for three years. (He was a problem drinker for 30 years) He was miserable drunk or sober. I only wish they had the cleaner anti-depressants back then. He couldn't find one that worked and drank himself to death. I was with him in the hospital when he died; even then he was arrogant and pompous.

I've written here before about my first husband. He's clean and sober now and attends 3 meetings a week. I nursed him through the DTs several times. He tried to quit with rational recovery and shock therapy to no avail.

My favorite slogan is Live and Let Live. Alcoholism is devastating. AA may not be the only way for drunks to get sober, but I have witnessed firsthand that willpower alone is useless.

It seems that every path I've followed has demanded my loyalty for a time until I could step away from the structure and move on. I attended step studies in ACA and Al Anon and found most of the participants to be very kind and supportive. After repressing so much from my childhood within a dysfunctional family using the techniques of Knowledge, the anonymous groups offered me some real healing.

Thanks for listening,
eb
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Date: Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 10:49:33 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: eb
Subject: The Effectiveness of AA
Message:
eb - thanks for your testimony. I knew you'd have something to say about this topic. I just want to say one thing - I have seen a couple of people quit drinking by using what I think was willpower. It might have been something else, because in at least one case it was catalyzed by a very traumatic event. (I also know a man who had a stroke and 'forgot' that he was an alcoholic! I am not kidding.) But NOTHING but AA worked for my mom, and I am very grateful to AA for that.
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Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 18:16:23 (EST)
From: Stephen Harris
Email: mulcyber@pacbell.net
To: Jim
Subject: Stephen re addiction (repost)
Message:
I mentioned authority in another post. You mention 'your own
terms'. AA is a place for people who have serious drinking
problems, primarily. Do you think you would let someone
who has been drinking the night before tell you, who may have
not been drinking for 5 years, how to quit drinking? AA has
and does work for some people. People in early sobriety
obviously have untested theories. How are they in a position
to know that their 'terms' will help them quit drinking?

People are free to say whatever they want when they talk.
A significant portion of new AAs do not have enough self
confidence to speak in front of a group. Debate is not
encouraged because the majority of people are coming to
talk themselves, and not to listen at people shouting
at each other. People are there to share their *own*
experience, strength and hope. My views of things changed
from 2 years sober and 5 years sober. And other people
have views which are typically going to be much different
from someone with 6 weeks of sobriety to someone with 10 years.
So debates take place after the meeting.

AA has a structure. People can come or not. This forum
has a stucture. Is it appropriate to talk about Artificial
Intelligence in this forum? No. People can go somewhere
else if they want to talk about AI. People of AA are
happy with a structure that doesn't have debate about
whether there should be 4 steps instead of 12 steps and
does not follow the tenets of any particular therapist.
It is for people who like 'principles before personalities'
and if you do not like the principles of AA go somewhere
else or start your own group. Many people in AA get sponsors
and discuss doubts. You can express doubts in AA meetings.
You may get no reply, because they are there to talk about
what is important to them, not debate or answer questions.
That stuff happens usually at coffee after meetings.
Well that is enough, I have more posts to write.

Regards,
Stephen
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Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 19:38:03 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Stephen Harris
Subject: Stephen re addiction (repost)
Message:
Stephen,

Thank you for those last two vivid posts. For the first time I can visualize what goes on in an AA meeting. And I am getting a better idea of the AA philosophy. Although I may not agree with it, I am fascinated with your insider's view. I like to hear about peoples experiences more than their opinions or beliefs

See, I'm not always a Phillistine.
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Date: Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 19:14:31 (EST)
From: Anon
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Who or what is BM?
Message:
Excuse me. I just took a peek in here to catch up on all this dreadful negativity about Maharaji. (Would you not agree Mr Hammond-Smythe? It is all verynegative).
Anyway, I have noticed that there is a fashion here for referring to M as 'BM'. I have been quietly puzzling over the meaning of this for some time. Could it be 'Balyogeshwar Maharaj Ji' or 'Blasted man' or worse?
Can someone enlighten me? I've obviously missed an in-joke.

Also, I am midway through reading the book 'Advait Sant Mat' which Scott kindly sent me. This book is the only record, I have come across, of the lives of the Satgurus who came directly before 'BM'. Sarupanand (who is supposed to have been Shri Hans ji's master) clearly elected someone else as his successor, according to this book. It's all horribly confusing! I suppose Shri Hans must have just set up on his own with disregard for the instructions of beloved Sarupanand! Either that or Sarupanand wanted to utterly bewilder his remaining (living) devotees. Surely not?? Anyone know what the official line on this little part of 'history' is?
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Date: Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 19:21:25 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Anon
Subject: Who or what is BM?
Message:
Anon,

BM is JW's joke, I think, BM standing for 'Big Maharaji' or 'Bowel Movement' depending, I guess, on how the spirit.... no I don't pun like that.

You know, ti would be so cool if you coudl somehow post the salient section on Shri Hans' own power grab. Yes, that would be cool.

Thanks,
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Date: Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 19:44:51 (EST)
From: Anon
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: About the lineage
Message:
I could post some of the text which refers to Sarupanand electing his successor. It would inevitably be somewhat out of context. The book is very long. At that time (1930's) Sarupanand had 2 favorite devotees, one called Vairag Anand and another whom I can't immediately recall. I believe the former eventually became the Master after Vairag.

Anyway I will post some of the text when I have time. As I said, so far I have seen NO mention of Shri Hans Ji whatsoever, and there are mentioned many, many devoteees and Mahatmas by name. The whole text reads very much like Shri Hans Ji's own personal offering 'Hans Yog Prakash' with lots of quotes from Kabir (who was clearly a major player in the formation of this lineage with all it's complicated 'bhakti'ideas about life, the Universe and Everything). There is much reference to 'the dust of the toenails of the Holy Lotus Feet' etc . Lots of scary, authoratively toned reminders that to those who 'miss the Guru's boat' there await precisely 84,000 lower forms of life to suffer miserable incarnations working your way through! (I'm sure that National Geographic said that 'millions' of species become extinct every year, so I'm sure that figure can't be right!) and much more talk..all the usual really.
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Date: Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 19:44:57 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Who or what is BM?
Message:
No, Jim, it was Gerry who came up with BM. I had been calling him the 'Big M' for awhile and 'BM' just seemed like it was shorter.

I know there are people who actually care about the lineage of these 'masters,' and I'm glad that someone like anon is willing to find out about it, and tell us all in summary form how it all worked. So, thanks, anon.
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Date: Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 20:03:30 (EST)
From: Anon
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Who or what is BM?
Message:
At this point I think it is worth mentioning that Scott T. (who seems to be a bit absent from here at present) made considerable efforts to firstly, get this book from the Wilson Fellowship Library, and secondly to photocopy, and send me, a weighty part of it. So if you're out there Scott, many thanks. I haven't finished reading it yet, but when I have I will post some of the relevant bits for general interest. I would however be keen to learn from anyone, if there were or are, any surviving tales (maybe originating from old Mahatmas) of Shri Hans' actual interaction with Sarupanand. As I mentioned, this book makes no mention of him at all so far. (and I don't think it's about to - I've got to the bit where Sarup dies and Vairag takes over).
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Date: Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 20:57:36 (EST)
From: Anon
Email: None
To: all
Subject: Ok guys.Here it is....
Message:
Extract from 'Shri Paramhansa Advait Mat' regarding the succession of Shri Swami Vairag Anand Ji Maharaji (The Third Master), after his Guru, Shri Swami Swarup Anand Ji Maharaj. (The Second Master)

------------------------------------------------------

Thus, the Master (Swarup Anand Ji) continued to address the congregation of the Sadhus, as time warranted, sometimes alone and sometimes in the midst of devotees. In the end, before that assembly dispersed, the Master started revealing deep secrets of spiritualism to a few Mahatmas privately. First of all, He called Shri Swami Vairag Anand Ji Maharaj (The Third Master), Mahatma Satgur Sewa Anand Ji, Mahatma Santosh Anand Ji and Mahatma Gur Darshan Anand Ji and observed, 'From now onward, I may or may not give Darshan to you. I will do what I wish. The work of spiritual propagation has expanded. I wish to appoint one of you as a chief. All will have to abide by what he says. Now who should be the chief out of you four?' Pointing towards Shri Swami Vairag Anand Ji Maharaj, the Third Master, all of them requested, '0h Lord! He will be our chief.' The Second Master observed, 'I also wish the same. He shall be your chief. He will sit on the 'Palang' ( Guru's cot ) and will issue orders. All of you will have to act accordingly.' All bowed to the Master's orders and said, '0h Lord ! We accept Your orders most respectfully.'

The Second Master again took the hand of Shri Swami Vairag Anand Ji Maharaj in His own hands in the presence of all of them and observed, 'Very well, He shall be your chief. Do you all agree to it T?' All bowed to denote their acceptance. Thus He gave all these orders secretly and none knew anything about it outside.

On 5th October 1935 A. D., a week before the ending of that congregation, He disclosed that secret in the presence of all the Mahatmas. At 4. 00 P. M. the Master had thrown open His Darshan in the inner courtyard ( Haveli ). He made observations in the presence of all, -Now I wish to live in loneliness and have grown old also. I wish to appoint someone from amongst you, as your chief, who will be acceptable to you all. Tell Me, as to who should be that chief?' Then, calling Mahatma Satgur Sewa Anand Ji, asked him, as to who should be the chief? At that time, Mahatma Satgur Sewa Anand Ji said with folded hands, '0h, Lord, He ( Pointing towards the Third Master ) should be the Chief.' Then He observed in the presence of all the Mahatmas, 'Very well, very well. This is My wish also. He should be your chief. All of you shall have to abide by His orders. Those Mahatmas who are ready to abide by His orders, should raise their hands.' All the Mahatmas raised their hands. Then He asked them to lower their hands and after repeating this three or four times He observed, ,His orders shall be acceptable to you. all. He only shall sit on the Palang' ( throne ) and issue orders and all of you shall have to obey that fully and in every way.' He again ordered, 'All of you gird up your loins and say that you agree to it.' All of them girded up their loins and He Himself taking the hand of the Third Master in His left hand, said,'He is a great Gurumukh. He has served Me very faithfully. I am much pleased with Him.'

The Second Master continued to teach the secrets of Bhakti and Divine knowledge to the congregation of the Mahatmas, who stayed there for four and a half months under His instructions. Thereafter He permitted every Mahatma to go to his Ashrama. On 13th October, 1935 A. D., the Master left for Delhi. He stayed at Delhi for ten to twelve days and then moved to Nangli for similar duration. He repeated this programme two to four times. Then he called the Third Master at Delhi and told Him, ---Now I have to go from here.' The Third Master requested, -'Lord! Continue for some time more. '

The Master replied, ' I have changed My programme twice or thrice at your request. Now I wish to go. Do not oblige Me to change this time.' At this, the Third Master kept quiet. The Second Master then started conveying the deep and significant imports of spiritualism. On 26th Magh, 1993, B. K. or 7th February, 1939, A. D; the Second Master told the Third Master, 'Shri Anandpur, in Gwalior State, is the main centre of spiritualism. It is My order that the chaks, which have been purchased, must be inhabited. All the Bais and the Mahatmas will serve you.' The Third Master bowed and assured the Second Master full compliance of His orders.

A few days later, the Second Master again spoke to the Third Master. 'Now it is not only the responsibility of the Satsanga in Sind, which rests on your shoulders, but of the whole world. You are a lion. Roar like a lion. I am happy with you.' Having said so, the Second Master embraced His own image, Shri Swami Vairag Anand Ji. The Two Divine powers became One. In what words should be described the scene of that time ? It is difficult to say whether that should be characterised as the union of day and night or the confluence of the Ganges and the Yamuna or the union of the sun-flower and sun. It was such a strange scene:
:
Two Divine Powers became one. A strange scene was witnessed. The tradition of love smiled. Whom should we see ? Oneness was seen in the union of two appearances.

God made the two appearances visible as one. There was no difference between the two at all. No duality remained there.

Then the Second Master, having conveyed to His most devoted disciple, what He wanted to convey, asked Him to go to Chakauri and the Third Master accordingly proceeded from Delhi to Chakauri.
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Date: Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 23:47:08 (EST)
From: Mr Ex
Email: None
To: Anon
Subject: That's lovely styff!!!!!!
Message:
That's really an utmost important matter for ANY premie (or asp) I guess.

'Maharaji's' myth is build on some kind of fairy tale.
Part of ther fairy tale is 'His Maharaji's' 'divinity', and
the mysterious process by which he became the satguru etc.

I have the other version of the story, as it's told in the Indian DLM's book of the 70s.

Read both of them, and there is obviously something wrong!

This deserves a good page as an article on the website IMHO.
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Date: Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 23:51:30 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: Mr Ex
Subject: That's lovely styff!!!!!!
Message:
Definitely, I think adding this as an entry somewhere on the site would be valuable. My vote: in the 'Becoming Clear' area
but then again, I am not sure new visitors would look there (?)
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Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 01:23:38 (EST)
From: Mark
Email: Apple 4256 @ aol.com
To: Anon
Subject: Brian this is a keeper !
Message:
For someone Interested in Critical Examination
of M's claims as a Divine Representative, this
brilliant research by ANON
should be put in the permanent section along with:

Mishler's Interview
Kirpal/ Lang article about initiation for social advantage
Aspirant denied knowledge
the Lang article about Visions
and anything else that fits
a sort of 'hard evidence' file

The lineage and exclusivity angle are very central to the 'MOJO'
of M.Even people who have difficulty stomaching M's antics
are quite reverential towards Sri Maharaji ( me included)
Why i ask myself? Because I saw the same 5 or 6 tapes snippets of him spliced into 50 Elan Vital/Visions videos, usually with some
sweet English accent narrating. . .
Recently, Sarupanand ( Swarup Anand ji , the 2nd master in the above article) was spliced into the films.The third of a' long running lineage'.
Excellent brainwashing stuff. What we see on film/
documentary style we believe. . .

What do i know of what of Sri Maharaji? Except that 1 minutes worth of video tape presented to me again and again.
and glowing stories how he was miraculously lifted from a river
by Sarupanand and later made master. how 600 people followed him home one day-just because of his vibe. and how as the all powerful master , he had the power to manifest 4 gods as sons
with the youngest being the greatest.
His Mythology gave M substance.

Now we see, ( if we give this ANON account any credence) Sri Maharaji
was not even in the top 4 devotees of Sarupanand- the photo of him in a group with Sarup in Visions films notwithstanding.
And if he wasn't the '3rd Master', and he started revealing knowledge freelance- he was breaking the only from the master
rule! He was a Manmut, a bongo! and how about the 4 god manifestation thing? with the 4 boy gods( sons of a Bongo) choosing up sides- currently 2 against 2- and none behaving like a god you'd be proud to bring home to your mother - Sri M's perfection is called a bit into question, wouldn't you agree? Hans Yog Prakesh author he is though- Unless that book is now seen as some plaguarized rank and file heavy satsang from the Sant Mat tradition.)

then we've got the mishler and bal bhagwan versions of sri M's
transferral, which sort of throws doubt on this generation's master hand-off. . .

Actually it looks like Sri M was sort of a renegade with no real
claim to any lineage- no spirirtual authority
and Professor Lang gives'knowledge' to college kids and they experience music and light without any lineage
and Sarup, it appears took his techniques ( outside of lineage) from
Lihiri Mahasay( see my journey's article)
so did Yukeswar( Yogananda's guru)

i don't blame people for retreating to a nice story
whatever gets you through the night
but those of you secretly reading this
and still buying the Magic Master stuff
please-
think for yourselves! ! !
it all dissapears
when you get outside of it !

we do have these 'search engines' for God or non-ordinary
inner reality built into us, standard.
if you are predisposed to search within using any of the Search Engines available
(using thought or non-thought methodologies),
I think one thing we hopefully have learned
is to examine the marketing extremely carefully,
nd keep OUR self (or Self) in charge

Webmaster, please save anon's post above. . .
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Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 06:40:47 (EST)
From: Anon
Email: None
To: Mark & Mr Ex
Subject: Brian this is a keeper !
Message:
Mr Ex wrote:
I have the other version of the story, as it's told in the Indian DLM's book of the 70s.

I would like to hear that. Any chance?

Mark wrote:
Now we see, (if we give this ANON account any credence) Sri Maharaji was not even in the top 4 devotees of Sarupanand- the photo of him in a group with Sarup in Visions film notwithstanding.

Just to clarify. I am not making any claims as to the veracity of anything I or Scott, have 'unearthed'. I was not there in India, and actually I have never been to India, but I am merely interested in finding out the details of the linege history as there seems to have always been such a paucity of information available from within the 'Maharaji Camp'.

Originally (nearly 2 years ago now) I curiously ran an Alta Vista search on 'Maharaji' and' Maharaj Ji' (like we all do) and arrived at a section of David Lanes 'Neural Surfer' site. Having been astonished at the parallels with early DLM of the Radhasoami movement he described therein, I wrote enthusiastically to that professor asking him for further links and historical facts as regards the lineage of Maharaji in particular. He directed me to the much researched book 'Radhasoami Reality' by his peer, Prof Mark Jurgensmeyer. I ordered and devoured this book voraciously and some discussion developed with some of those on this website, (which at that time was in its initial incarnation) as to the connection between Maharaji and Radhasoami. Basically, to cut a long story short, there was some confusion as to whether another 'Swarup Anand' of Radhasoami fame, was the Sarupanand that we all had been told was Shri Hans' Master. It appears not.
Prof David Lane told me that Maharaji's father is said to have received initiation from Sawan Singh, a well-known Radhasoami Guru. However the Sarupanand I sought to find out about, whom indeed had also initiated Shri Hans, was of the distinct, Advait Sant Mat lineage.
Lane went on to direct me to this latest book which he said was available at UCLA Melvyn library. Well that was impossible for me to access, but Scott T stepped in and got it from his source.

It does seem to be a near mythic tale now, but I am hoping that this book finally is about the Sarupanand in question. I am keen not to be party to misinformation which is why I am anxious not to make any hard and fast proclamations, or prematurely draw any conclusions about to what extent this information conflicts with the 'Maharaji Camp' version of events. I feel that it is not all clear yet. I would hazard a guess that M himself doesn't know too much either, and possibly isn't particularly interested anyway. It would seem though, I agree, from what I have read that M and his father, are certainly no deviants from the general rule that in India, these messy succession disputes are two-a-penny, and have been since the start of the 'bhakti' tradition. It is also quite possible that Shri Hans just 'set up shop' on his own , contrary to the prior instructions of Sarupanand. One is tempted to assume this rather than that Sarupand secretly told him to start another quite seperate 'strain' anew. (this would hardly have been fair on the remaining disciples!)
One thing is absolutely clear. Their 'lingo' and basic concepts and message are the same. One marvels at the ability of the Indian
devotees to not consider the obvious hypocricies of the teachings they embrace.
If there is only one Master, how can there be many? All at the same time!!
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Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 04:18:26 (EST)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: everyone
Subject: Who or what is BM?
Message:
Who or what is BM?
Hmmm!
BM= brilliant master ?
Bm= brazen megolomaniac ?
BM= bloody maniac ?
BM= best miner ?
BM= big mac ?
BM= beautiful man ?
BM= bountiful maharaji ?
BM= biggest monster ?
BM= brain molester ?
BM= baa moo ?
please add and stir! ?
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Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 06:06:49 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: Here is DLM's 'official' story
Message:
As a disciple, Maharaj Ji (Shri Sant Ji Maharaj) was the example of total surrender. His life was austere and simple, his whole being was bent upon truth and all lesser concerns melted and disappeared before his eyes. His Guru said of him, Ŧ I am in ‘Hans’ heart, and ‘Hans’ is in my heart. ŧ The differences between Guru and disciple dissolved into basic oneness. Maharaj Ji lost his personal ego and became one with his Guru, attaining supreme cosmic consciousness.

Later, a very close disciple of Maharaj Ji disclosed the following incident. Once, all the disciples of Dada Guru (other name for Maharaj Ji’s guru) were sitting together in the presence of their master. The Dada Guru lifted Shri Maharaj Ji’s hand and declared to his disciples that they should follow ‘Hans’ after his death. The story has an ironic end. A small group dominated by one Varaganand disobeyed their Master and after his death declined to follow Shri Maharaj Ji. Varaganand claimed the property of his late Guru and set himself up as his own right. Shri Hans Ji Maharaj was not attracted to the perishable wealth of this world, having already been bestowed with the divine property of Ram Nam. So, accordingly to the commandment of his Master, he started propagating the Holy Name.

(Excerpt of ‘Satgurudev Shri Hans Ji Maharaj, Published by Divine Light Mission, B-19/3, Shakti Nagar, Delhi 7, India - Page 3)

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

How funny, isn't it ?
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Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 15:52:06 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Here is DLM's 'official' story
Message:
Maharaj was not attracted
to the perishable wealth of this world,


Funny and bizarre. One of the first things one notices about him. To be sure. After all, that house in Malibu is just so people will respect the knowledge more, right? And have something to do for service. Same with all that land in Australia and all the other stuff. It's a superficial world and he needs to be able to impress people so they will see beyond and see the pure simple being inside. I'm getting good at this. Maybe I should start an alter ego like John HS.
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Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 16:35:42 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Like Father, Unlike Son
Message:
I LOVE this part.

Shri Hans Ji Maharaj was not attracted to the perishable wealth of this world, having already been bestowed with the divine property of Ram Nam. So, accordingly to the commandment of his Master, he started propagating the Holy Name.

Apparently BM inherited his apparently insatiable attraction for expensive 'perishable wealth of this world' from his MOTHER! Perhaps this is why Mahrarji is such a failure at 'propogating the Holy Name.'
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Date: Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 22:39:10 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: 'Emperor of the Spiritual
Subject: Domain of The Age'
Message:
Anon, Jean-Michel, et al:

Between the Advait Mat book, and Jean-Michel's account from 'Satgurudev Shri Hans Ji Maharaj' published by DLM in India, I think we've gotten to the bottom of the present controversy. It's pretty clear that the 'Varaganand' in the DLM passage below is the same 'Vairag Anand Ji' from the Advait Mat book in the passage below that.

The differences between Guru and disciple dissolved into basic oneness. Maharaj Ji lost his personal ego and became one with his Guru, attaining supreme cosmic consciousness..... A small group dominated by one Varaganand disobeyed their Master and after his death declined to follow Shri Maharaj Ji. Varaganand claimed the property of his late Guru and set himself up as his own right. (Divine Light Mission, 19??)

I am happy with you.' Having said so, the Second Master embraced His own image, Shri Swami Vairag Anand Ji. The Two Divine powers became One. (Shri Anandpur Trust, 1975)

It also seems likely that one or the other account (or both?) was plagiarized. Not pretty. One now has to judge whether either lineage is genuine. And if the legitimacy of the 'right to rule' belongs to Shri Hans on the basis of his non-materiality (as the passage seems to claim), then that title has been squandered by his son. I wonder how the fortunes of 'Vairag' and his successor faired? That would be the person of Shri Swami Beant Anand Ji Maharaj. Unfortunately I didn't have time to copy that chapter, which runs from page 545 to 660. Then there is the matter of the 5th Master, who is supposed to be the 'Emperor of the Spiritual Domain of The Age,' and who has not yet reached his advent. Kinda gives me the shivers...

-Scott
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Date: Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 01:11:13 (EST)
From: Stephen Harris
Email: mulcyber@pacbell.net
To: Jim
Subject: Who or what is BM?
Message:
I think it was in 1971 that I got the Word in Carmel, Ca.
Mostly what we did was meet in the park with his picture
and bring fruit, which we ate after the meeting, sometimes
I think we listened to tapes.

This is how I remember it. He preached celibacy, no alcohol
and no meat. His mother found out he was having sex, drinking,
and eating meat. She raised hell. His response was that he
was a Perfect Master and that he was above the karmic laws
that applied to his followers. The story I heard was that
he was installed by his older brother. His mother went back
to India and denounced him and put his older brother in his
place.(as best I recollect) Gumaraji went over to get his
following back and was chased from one hotel to another by
his angry ex-followers. This was in the papers. He countered
by saying this was an FBI frameup. I didn't believe this
because he has always been a small fry Guru; compared to
Sai Baba or Maharishi of TM (also frauds) who are richer.
One of his Mahatmas was arrested for smuggling some narcotic.
So I moved onto another guru who could do a better job of lying.
I don't see much point in insulting people for their gullible
beliefs in gurus and New Age quackery since I held them and
felt I knew something nobody else knew, though I was warned.
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Date: Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 19:06:37 (EST)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Everyone
Subject: Licensed until bedtime
Message:
It's all Keith's fault - Damn you, Brother In His Love :-)

I have decided the only way I can quit this forum and take
a break is to make a big deal out of it so I will be too
embarrassed to join in again tomorrow.

So I will, if not in this post, then in the thread below,
try to tie up any loose ends, put and end to outstanding
conversations, look up afterthoughts in the old memory-
banks, and unleash any unspouted bile that hasn't yet
found a worthy target (forgive me, for I know not what I
do), and above all, summon up a magnificent warm vibe
which I will transmit telepathically to all who are
ready to receive it.

And for some of you I want to reply to personally, and are not
so telepathically gifted, I promise an email, very soon.

So, premies and ex's, I'm all yours until bedtime
- after which, I am open to offers... (Behave yourself
Nigel, you're almost middle-aged...)

I have suddenly noticed that doing it Bill Burke style,
ie., all in a medium sized window putting in your own
line breaks is great when you're writing it, and from
what I remember of BB's posts, is very easy to read, so
I think I will stick with it for now, and maybe again later
when I come back, as I surely will, and as has been
prophesised...
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Date: Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 19:18:03 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Good luck, Nigel!
Message:
Hey Nigel,

If this really works, let me know. I've been trying to escape cyberspace on and off for YEARS now.

The problem is, this activity is both the most meaningful thing I do and the least, depending on the moment.

Thanks for all your support, by the way, in the battle with the new-agers. Or should I say 'children of the light'.

Stay in touch.

Jim
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Date: Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 20:01:27 (EST)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Good luck, Nigel!
Message:
Thanks, Jim, and will do. I'll probably bombard you with even more email now you've invited me to 'stay in touch'. Be warned...

Cheers.
Nigel
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Date: Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 20:02:48 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: A suggestion
Message:
Jim,

I think everyone respected your decision to limit your discussion to Maharaji.

Thanks for all your support, by the way, in the battle with the new-agers. Or should I say 'children of the light'.

So why don't give up these petty little 'potshots'?
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Date: Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 20:32:33 (EST)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: JW and anyone
Subject: Private Eye link
Message:
Joe, you were saying the other night about how you used to like Not the Nine O'clock News. I don't know whether you remember the Private Eye magazine from your days in the UK, but it's still going and has a website at:

http://www.private-eye.co.uk/default.htm

They always do the caption thing on the front cover. I love Private Eye. It is the only subversive/satirical national mag we've got, and its mission, in as far as it has a mission, is to be to debunk the hypocrites, the poseurs and the powerful and expose all sorts of sordid goings on where you'd least expect it. They have lost a few libel suits over the years, but they have also successfully forced a few government ministers to resign. Stimulating stuff - but much of the humour and news content may not cross the Atlantic very well.

They also did a very disrespectful issue in the week that Lady Di departed this earth and the country went bananas griefwise. Most newsagents in the land refused to stock that issue. Very funny - merely pointing out the differences between the things that the newspaper columnists had said a couple of days previously (Boo, hiss, we hate Diana), and what they were saying now (Angel of Mercy, Queen of Hearts etc.)
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Date: Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 20:50:34 (EST)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Jim & anyone.
Subject: Jim - the Meming of Life
Message:
Jim, another Sue Blackmore 'meme' paper, from the same website as the one you linked for us a couple of weeks back. Don't know whether you read it Personally, I think she's going over the top a bit (if Dawkins and Dennet have abandoned memes, have they missed something?). But interesting.

http://www.memes.org.uk/lectures/mms.html

The most revealing thing for me, and something I had forgotten - if I had ever registered it - was the fact that Dawkins, in The Selfish Gene, only introduced the concept of the 'meme' to emphasize how different humans were from other species and that we could not explain all human behaviour in terms of genetic inheritance. An important point that tends to get sidelined - and I can fully understand why Dawkins often feels misunderstood and misrepresented.
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Date: Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 22:04:25 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: before you go to bed
Message:
Have Dawkins and Dennet abandoned the idea of memes? I remember reading that neither one took up the subject again in subsequent publications, but does that constitute rejection? One can follow just so many lines of inquiry in a lifetime and I suppose, of necessity they would limit themselves to certain topics. I think it is well within tradition for others to pick up pieces of another's work and more fully develop the idea. But then, I do seem to be attracted to those ideas that are ''over the top.'' hic
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Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 14:27:07 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Jim - the Meming of Life
Message:
A new list for discussing Evolutionary Psychology
Click here to subscribe to ScreamingMemes
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Date: Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 21:16:01 (EST)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: everyone
Subject: is not Ratty Ji
Message:
There are some people who still think I might be Ratty Ji, and I had better clear this up now before I disappear. Whoever Ratty is, he is not me (I failed my Hindi O-level, for one thing). I posted just before the Bolton gig saying I might do the miked-up spy bit, but in the event didn't actually go. Then this wonderful rodent actually did what I had no more than pondered doing (hey - where's the transcript - have I missed it?) and actually got the whole thing on tape.

I thought for a while that it might even be useful for the guy's anonymity if people thought that I was Ratty, but then I started feeling guilty that people might attribute certain qualities of fortutide and strong stomach to myself, rather than to the rightful recipient. So, just for the record, I am not, and don't even know, either UK Mole or Ratty Ji. But I admire and appreciate both of them a lot - as should we all.
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Date: Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 21:36:23 (EST)
From: U.K. Mole
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: is not Ratty Ji
Message:
Thank you, Nigel for your kind remarks. I am happy to confirm you are indeed, not Ratty Ji. I'm sorry we have not got the transcript ready yet. Every time the real Ratty Ji sits down to translate it he gets a couple of paragraphs in and is overcome with nausea - this is what he tells me anyway and I cannot in all conscience contradict him.

The photographs he took have been developed onto a CD-Rom and although not of professional quality (due to the difficult circumstances) were nonetheless very interesting and all but one of them was reasonably clear. They were all e-mailed to Brian just over a week ago. Ratty and I have been busy hatching other plots about which discretion is the better part of valour but I will chase him up on the translation, if only of the juicy bits.

Regards,

U.K. Mole
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Date: Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 18:48:43 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Don't Miss It!!!
Message:
Everyone:

Be sure and read my welcoming message to our new resident analyst and all around genius Stephen Harris in the Mysteries thread at the bottom of the page. It's entitled 12 steps and the Guru papers.

I wanted to point it out before it goes over the horizen and also because you all are mentioned in it (well, at least 90% of you are).
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Date: Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 19:56:01 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: Don't Miss It!!!
Message:
I don't really understand the point he is trying to make. Do you Gerry? He seems to be saying that we are trying to escape reality by using the forum.

I'm not going to pretend to speak for 90% of you, but I can say that for me - Of course I want to escape reality! Who doesn't? Is that really so awful? My thing about AA and BM is that I don't like the escape. I found it smothering and stifling and an all around drag. Whether it be surrendering to some fat guy on a stage to escape or sitting around a table bemoaning my life or listening to some old timer tell me what to do in an AA meeting. They both were a total drag for me. Not to mention that the BM is getting a lot of money from people and I don't think he deserves it.

Also I have communicated with some great people here. So, it does have some reality to it. Katie just sent me a music tape. It seems real. So she must be too. Are you real Katie?

If this is an alternative escape for me GOOD!!! I needed one. And it fits my lifestyle since I am stuck in front of these machines so much. I can easily open another browser and see what's up. It's not all that harmful that I can tell. As a matter of fact it feels good.
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Date: Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 22:44:02 (EST)
From: x
Email: None
To: Selena
Subject: Don't Miss It!!!
Message:
Reality Bites, just kidding. The real reality is we're all just here for a relatively short ride,so we may as well enjoy the scenery. Ashes to ashes dust to dust, even BM is realy just pre-mature fertilizer.

x
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Date: Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 23:11:00 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: x
Subject: Don't Miss It!!!
Message:
As his new name (BM) would most certainly imply :)
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Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 10:17:05 (EST)
From: John
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: I disagree pal
Message:
Gerry, just for the record, I think you overreacted to Stephen's post. Just my pompous opinion, but I don't think he was insulting anyone, and if he was he was including himself.
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Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 11:51:34 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: John
Subject: pompous opinion?
Message:
John,

I think you're right, I did over react and I've spent half the morning back pedalling (god I hate it when that happens). I presently don't believe Stephen intended to insult anyone with his statement that 90% of the people on the forum are romance or religion addicts, but still, it was a slap in the face to the people here, IMO, and since his post was directed to me, I responded.

He did, however, equate my thinking with that of an addict. Hey would you like someone saying you think like a junky? I've never considered my self to be addicted to anything. Well, maybe Oreo cookies. The ones with the double stuff in the middle.

Your pal,
Gerry
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Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 16:11:25 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: pompous opinion?
Message:
heh, I was thinking you were so hard on him. Then I read the inactive archive and found the stuff about 'goofball intellectuals' and I found I was human too. I reacted but rather quickly calmed down when I realized I *like* that name.
I must be either getting healthier or more masochistic. I even found it funny when Jack called me the rabid dog. woof!

- selenabai puppy-ji - taking things rather personally instead of going to work on my programs.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 00:52:26 (EST)
From: Stephen Harris
Email: mulcyber@pacbell.net
To: Gerry
Subject: pompous opinion?
Message:
I find this funny. I told you I like sugar. I got a package
of the fat reduced Oreo cookies by mistake and I hate them!
No I did not intend. My pattern after giving up on BM was
to move to other gurus and fringe New Age beliefs. Always
searching for the end of uncertainty. Maybe that is not
the pattern of most of the people on this forum. When I
was doing this myself I was defensive about it so will not
make a big deal of it. When I became interested in science
it was quantum theory(Wholeness and the Implicate Order, Bohm)
and then next Artificial Intelligence. :-) When I quit drinking
I was glad for meetings to go to. It filled up all the time I
used to spend in the bar. Now I have time again because of
no cult to spend time in or with. So there I am with no
divine purpose wondering what to do with my life. I see some
people fill this gap by going to school.

Regards,
Stephen
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Date: Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 07:03:05 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: Stephen Harris
Subject: to Stephen - answer + question
Message:
Now I have time again because of
no cult to spend time in or with. So there I am with no
divine purpose wondering what to do with my life


Stephen I've been posting here for about a month and been an ex-premie about the same amount of time. I'm having a really good time participating in this forum, which is helping my recovery from Maharaji and also in many other ways. When it gets tough there is always someone with a kind word. I have had so much support it's unbelievable.

I recently started a new job, which gets me out the door every day. A lot of nights I catch up here, because I want to - it's stimulating, funny etc. I just love it. I watch TV occasionally, go to movies. I have an almost-teenage daughter in my life as well. I don't have any long-range plans, b but I can feel so many changes happening. It's like I have got the reins of my life back in my own hands - and I'm older and wiser I hope than I ever was.

In all I have become a bit of a social isolate since my 12 step days and new age seminar days. I find it hard to have normal human relationships on a face to face basis, but am getting better at it.

I also spent about 2 years seriously depressed so all that takes getting over. I am still getting used to not thinking of myself as weird, depressed etc - and giving 'normal' responses to people and having people like me and being bright and even vivacious, sometimes (eg at my new job).

I was interested in your mention of the term 'romance addict' because I think I may be/have been that - but I feel myself getting over that too. Strangely, it's partly because my sexual interest is declining as I get older, and since I'm not so hungry for sexual experiences, I can let go of the 'romance' front I used to hide it behind. That is my thinking, but if you know any more about that syndrome do share!
Thanks - person getting healthier - revealing dark sides in relative safety -
regards Judex
(and welcome)
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Date: Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 15:20:31 (EST)
From: Stephen Harris
Email: mulcyber@pacbell.net
To: Judex
Subject: to Stephen - answer + question
Message:
You sound like you are doing quite well. By my standards.
I first read about how growing up in a dysfunctional family
can prime one to join a cult later in life by reading Anne
Wilson Schaef. The most common cause of this is an alcoholic
parent with a codependent spouse. Schaef breaks codependency
down into a combination of love, sex, and relationship addiction.

So for some people, the *why* of people joining cults seems
to be related to growing up in a dysfunctional family.
Here is an url that makes a case for the simularities. The
author tacks on some Christian stuff at the end which I am
not recommending. Just the information in the main body which
suggests that a dysfunctional home environment is similar to
a cult environment and might produce the pattern of joining
cults later in adult life. So if 15% of the people of this
country were alcoholics, which might be a high figure, then
there is about a 30% chance of either parent being alcoholic.
Now if you find 40 or 50% of the ex-cult members on this forum
came from families with an alcoholic primary caregiver, it
would suggest some plausibility to a dysfunctional/cult tie in.
http://www.usaor.net/dtl/shield/dysfunctional.htm
Read it critically. I just focused on the dysfunctional/cult
information, not her further opinions. As you probably know,
even if the connection is true, just knowing that does not
much change behavior which is another issue. Romance addiction
is just not those novels. It can be seeing yourself in an
esoteric setting. Like imagining yourself riding over a
sand dune approaching a pyramid containing a magical amulet.

You had a good idea about work. I have not been out of the
house much in 6 months. I need to do laundry and drive over
to what passes as work for me. I am a professional gambler.
Unfortunately, I have acquired the fear of losing money which
never used to bother me. More likely I need an honest job;
I have a huge amount of resistance to that idea. I am pleased
to hear you doing so well, it always provides hope for others.

Best Regards,
Stephen
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Date: Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 19:44:33 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Stephen Harris
Subject: to Stephen - a question
Message:
Hi Stephen -
I hope you don't mind my asking, but how can one be a professional gambler? I'm just curious - I have only read about them in books. (You're talking to someone here who hates gambling at anything more than nickel slots.)

In a post that went inactive on the other page, you mentioned Kuthumi, or Koot Hoomie. I had never heard of this being until I read a book by Tim Powers called 'Expiration Date'. The protagonist in that book is a 12-year-old boy named Koot Hoomie - his parents were in some cult and named him that after a deity they worshipped in the cult (I thought the author just made the name up). The book is really good - speculative fiction/fantasy, but in the real world. Tim Powers also wrote a book called 'Last Call' which is about a professional gambler, Las Vegas, and the Tarot. It's great. Don't know if you have read these books, or if you read at all, but I think you'd like them.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 21:08:24 (EST)
From: Stephen Harris
Email: mulcyber@pacbell.net
To: Katie
Subject: to Stephen - a question
Message:
It started with watching James Garner as Bret *Maverick*
when I was a kid. I used to organize poker games for Saturday
when the paperboy would do collections. Eventually I got a
job to support my addiction; working in California casinos as
a card dealer. Then playing when I got off shift. Finally I
got to the point after 20 years that I win more than I lose.
I play several games very well for money. It fit in well with
my alcohol and cocaine addiction. Now it has lost its glamor.
But I am only fairly good with a computer. One needs to eat.
There are thousands of people who lose their paycheck week
after week, can't pay rent, lose their families, embezzle
from their jobs--that is why I call it an addiction.

Koot Hoomi is first mentioned in I think the Mathatma Papers.
This is Theosophy. Then in the I AM movement of Guy Ballard.
Most recently in Elizabeth Clare Prophet, The Universal Church
Triumphant cult that got in trouble in Montana for having a
bomb shelter, automatic weapons etc. because she got a message
from the Ascended Masters (Great White Brotherhood which includes
Kuthumi) that there was going to be a nuclear war. I used to
chant the tapes about the Violet Flame.

I have tried various things in 25 years including Tarot.
Just about everything compulsively too. Starting with
the Lord of the Rings by Tolkien I've read hundreds of
fantasy books, but not Tim Powers. I now prefer mathematical
science fiction like Greg Egan with Permutation City. So I
think I will enjoy this book 'Last Call' and I have written
it down. The name Tim Powers sounds familiar from SF&Fantasy
but I don't think I've seen your titles in that shelf section.
Thanks for the recommendation. Their is a bookstore called
$1 books that probably has a thousand or more used SF books
and I have forty minutes just to find one book to read. If
you like Artificial Intelligence in SF try Permutation City
which is much better than that Rudy Rucker junk. The name
of Powers clicked in as I was writing this; I'm weak on names.

Best Regards,
Stephen
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Date: Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 21:27:00 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Stephen
Subject: Sci-fi off topic
Message:
Stephen -
It's nice to find another science fiction fan on here! I have read 'Permutation City' and really liked it. I also read 'Distress' and liked it even more. I read a lot of science and speculative fiction - I don't really like most pure fantasy books that much anymore (I still like Tolkien and Ursula LeGuin, although she is not really fantasy.)

I am also a big fan of two of the cyberpunk guys - Neal Stephenson and William Gibson. You've probably read their stuff. Try both of the Powers books if you can find them (I think I got 'Expiration Date' at K-Mart!).

Take care,
Katie
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Date: Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 16:28:22 (EST)
From: eb
Email: None
To: Judex
Subject: Romance Addiction
Message:
I spent 20 minutes looking for this post so I could respond.

Judex, my dear, I understand! I always wanted to go to a Sex Addicts Anonymous meeting to see if I qualified. It used to be impossible for me to turn it down. Took me a long time to figure out how to be monogamous. But since having my last child, I stopped wanting it 3 times a day.

I believed for awhile that in my past life, I was a very horny monk who decided to come back as a woman and screw every man (and a few women) who asked. This was because meditation and vegetarianism seemed so natural to me, but I had such a penchant for sex.

Back in the early 80's, I read the book Women Who Love Too Much and decided to find a man with whom I could not fall in love (since the premise seemed to be that since I'm so fucked up, the only men or women I will be attracted to will be fucked up too. I looked for someone I wasn't attracted to so I could have a healthy relationship). So I ended up with my love child, the gothic teen from hell who's teaching me so much. Once I got pregnant with her, I got real honest and realized I couldn't generate any feelings for her dad. So after a long, painful attempt to pretend, I gave up and became the single mother of 4.

When I met my current husband, I fell in love immediately. It took me 3 years to get him to marry me. (I've told this one before: I said to him, 'If you don't marry me, I'm taking my 4 kids and leaving!)

I have to say that IMNSHO, having sex with a man I love has got to be my favorite experience, better than chocolate. Better than OBEs. Right up there with childbirth which is my favorite.

Regarding depression: It took me 5 years to find an antidepressant that works for me. And when I found it, I was really amazed! I hope it continues to work cuz I'm not good at getting out of the that horrible state.

Love,
eb
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Date: Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 15:20:26 (EST)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Everyone
Subject: Blunting Occam's Razor
Message:
I have spent some writing this, so I hope no-one minds me starting a new thread. Basically it's some final thoughts on the 'Challenge to Science and Jim' issue below - though some of this will also be relevant to the question of drugs as pseudo-mysticism raised by Selena in the Hunter S Thompson thread.

Unlike Jim, I can't restrict my discussions to BM alone, since I see Mr Guru-pants as part of a bigger picture, a corrosive trend in western thought towards superstition and irrationality that provides the ideal environment for BM's mission to flourish. There is also a personal dimension, in that I now hold various bad books together with the shabby science that was carried out in the spoon-bending seventies at least partly responsible for my being so susceptible to BM's 'message'. If I hadn't read so much medieval mind-rot, I might have ended up finding something worthwhile to do with my life far sooner.

First, to Keith:

Maharaji likes to ridicule and poo poo reincarnation , astrology and the new age nonsense... as Jim does...and Nigel

What about my three questions? (Grrr! post). These were not mere ridicule, and I'd like to see some decent answers.

Also, I do not believe in ridicule for ridicule's sake; what makes me angry, however, is when people like Charles Tart make out they're playing by the rules then refuse to acknowledge the outcome once they have lost the game. About twenty-five years ago, Tart published a book based on his own research that claimed a person could be 'trained' to improve their ESP performance by using that fashionable experimental technique of the time known as 'biofeedback'. It sold plenty and created quite a buzz in scientific circles. (There was lots of gleaming electronic equipment with wires and dials stuff which must have helped.)

Soon after, Tart's colleagues from the Maths department at Davis University pointed out that the experiment was flawed by a randomisation-bias which inevitably led to positive outcomes. So did Tart immediately publish a retraction? Did he once say, 'Sorry folks, got it wrong this time?' Did he withdraw his book from sale..?

(By way of comparison, does anyone remember those physicists from around a decade ago who claimed to have discovered nuclear 'cold fusion'? They failed to replicate the effect, admitted it immediately, and thereby salvaged some respect)

Tart no longer uses biofeedback to enhance ESP performance; nobody uses biofeedback to enhance ESP performance. Why not? It doesn't work of course. Parapsychologists move on over the years. They have to. They have no choice but to adopt a 'better luck next time' mindset that will protect them from acknowledging the obvious. (I have worked briefly with parapsychologists and seen this close up). So they look for a new phenomenon, design a better experiment, hope for the odd positive outcome that will keep the funding rolling in before the flaw is exposed and they have to move on again. (BTW: Whatever happened to Rhine Cards?).

Also some people who experienced OBE's and fully believed them to be proof of the soul are, Saint Augustine, Carl Jung, Wordsworth, Emily Bronte, George Eliot, Alfred Tennyson, D.H. Lawrence, Virginia Woolf, John Buchan, Arthur Koestler, and Earnest Hemmingway.(to name but a few)

I'd have advised them to read Blackmore too, but I guess it's a little late. Jung was a space cadet not remotely interested in the scientific method. Tennyson turned atheist late in life after having had Darwin spend holidays with him. The rest I don't give a hoot about, since whatever they chose to believe does not constitute evidence for anything, any more than what I believe constitutes evidence to support my own position.

My main point here, though, is to do with 'Occam's Razor'.

Occam's Razor (also known as the principle of parsimony) is now commonly used to refer to an approach to formulating scientific theories in which, when onfronted by two seemingly plausible hypotheses for a phenomenon, one should preferably opt for the simpler explanation.

While it is not always easy to identify the simpler of two or more hypotheses, the principle is a sound one. If nothing else, it can be a useful pointer as to which of two explanations to falsify first. If the more complicated (and by 'complicated' we might also include the reliance upon unknown mechanisms), should actually turn out to be true, then there will in time be phenomena that the simpler theory should be able to predict or explain, but ultimately cannot.

In fact, this is the method that most people use, most of the time for making quick judgements in everyday life. Science merely formalises it. Like me, you might know very little about physics or chemistry etc., but if you understand the importance of Occam's Razor, you also understand one of the main principles of how science moves forward.

For example, suppose your friend who normally gives you lift to work fails to show up one morning, you might consider three possible explanations: (a), that they have overslept, (b), that their car has been blown up by terrorists, or (c), they have been abducted by aliens. Obviously it would be daft to opt for (b), until you have discounted (a) - or similarly plausible explanations, just as you would be better off disproving (b) before opting for anything as wacko as (c). Extraordinary claims require extraordinarily good evidence.

Occam's Razor, however, is not universally honoured in practice - least of all among paranormal believers. It sometimes seems like people's brains to turn to mush whenever anything vaguely spooky turns up.

Consider the following from CT:

>>>

'Marijuana intoxication, psi, and spiritual experiences.'

'Investigated the altered state of marijuana intoxication. A questionnaire study of 150 experienced marijuana users found that 76% believed in ESP, with frequent reports of experiences while intoxicated that were interpreted as psychic. 69% reported that they had experienced telepathy while intoxicated, 32% reported precognition, and 13% reported psychokinesis. 50% had experienced seeing auras around people and 44% reported out-of-body experiences. These findings suggest that marijuana, used under the proper psychological conditions, might facilitate the manifestation of psi....' (my incredulous emphasis)

(Tart, 1993)

>>>

As we all know, marijuana/ cannabis/dope/pot/wacky baccy/grass/hemp/weed/shit/hash/herb/Bob Hope/Mary Jane/blow/ganga etc.) is a drug known to cause perceptual and cognitive distortions, occasional hallucinations, 'the munchies', pain relief, pleasure, temporary impairment to immediate memory, and an irrational delight in the mystical twangings of The Incredible String Band. PSI (paranormal) phenomena are seemingly supernatural occurrences, the accepted existence of which would prove to be a fundamental challenge to known physics.

Charlie Tart has found an apparent connection between puffing de 'erb and supernatural goings on. - Or has he, perhaps, had a few tokes of his own?

The obvious explanation, is that people experience perceptual distortions, hallucinations etc. and interpret these as paranormal (the paper does go on to mention the possibility of the PSI phenomena not being genuine, but rather in the manner of an afterthought). If you really wanted to investigate the possibility of weed-induced wonders you might, of course, opt to set up a series of tightly-controlled ESP, PK and telepathy experiments in which one group performs stoned and the other stone-cold straight (only snag, you'd probably have do it in Holland in order to avoid our stupid drug laws). But why bother? - unless you've already accumulated overwhelming corroboration from non-druggies attesting to their having witnessed these marvels being carried out by their more laid-back acquaintances.

Occam's Razor: You must reject the bleedin' obvious before accepting the bloody miraculous.

(There is actually a nice variation on Occam's Razor that goes: 'Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity'. I think this might apply to certain political and spiritual leaders we have known.)

Right, that's it. Here endeth the rant. I'm off!

Please, anybody posting in this area of science, could you identify your post with one of Gerry's codes? Maybe B.U.N.K (Badly Uncorroborated New-age Kidology). I'll know then to avoid it and can get on with other things.

And yes, Katie, of course I shouldn't even read the forum while messages are active, and I think I had better stop henceforth!

BTW: to everyone. Please email me whenever you feel like, on any subject whatsoever, otherwise I'm gonna miss my invisible friends.
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Date: Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 15:43:55 (EST)
From: Stephen Harris
Email: mulcyber@pacbell.net
To: Nigel
Subject: Blunting Occam's Razor
Message:
I find Occam's Razor to be a good method to question facile
explanations made by cults as to why what they claim will
happen never turns into a reality. I have been thinking
about my early attraction to cults. I got the Word when
Gumaraji was 13. I think a large part of my consciously given
credibility was the result of reading Autobiography of a Yoga.
I was wondering how many others had read this book before
coming involved? Maybe this question applies more to older people?

Regards,
Stephen
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Date: Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 15:53:21 (EST)
From: John
Email: None
To: Stephen Harris
Subject: it's all my parents' fault!
Message:
Oh yeah, read it, and believed it of course. Why? Because...duh...I dunno! It was cool! Be Here Now by ram dass of course was a big influence.

But I would have to trace my gullibilty and susceptibility to my early childhood. I was raised in a large catholic family and my father used to read a book to me called The Lives of the Saints. I loved hearing about the saints and the miraculous events that occured to them because they believed. That was always the key, they simply had faith.

I think THAT'S what really prepared me for:
The Lord of the Universe
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Date: Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 15:56:16 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: John
Subject: it's all my parents' fault!
Message:
Yes, 'Be Here Now' was it for me too. Absolutely. Mind you, I had read Yogananda before and that was also influential. Tell me, how can such a beatific Indian guy with long, flowing hair be wrong? At 18/19 I couldn't see past any of it.
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Date: Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 22:33:34 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: John
Subject: it's all my parents' fault!
Message:
But I would have to trace my gullibilty and susceptibility to my early childhood. I was raised in a large catholic family and my father used to read a book to me called The Lives of the Saints. I loved hearing about the saints and the miraculous events that occured to them because they believed. That was always the key, they simply had faith.

Hey John I used to love those stories too. The nuns would read them out loud and I know I was in another place, (trance?) and transported to catholic never-never land. It was all conditioning and the context of lives definitely do affect what happens to us.

So yeah, my parents and the nuns did it to me!!!!
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Date: Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 16:19:39 (EST)
From: eb
Email: None
To: Stephen Harris
Subject: Blunting Occam's Razor
Message:
Greetings all,

Be Here Now and an orange mini barrel before knowledge; Autobiography of a Yogi and Journey of Awakening (and about a thousand others) after knowledge.

I may have torn the fabric of my mind by taking too many drugs and doing too much meditation because I can get into what I call 'trance state' very quickly without too much effort. My challenge has been to keep my feet on the ground (and my legs together).

My current husband, the chemist, has me fairly well grounded at this point. But I have one observation: wasn't it neat when we could fly and we thought we knew god and would live forever?

Subdued,
eb
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Date: Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 16:40:34 (EST)
From: John
Email: None
To: eb
Subject: eb the bunny
Message:
'My challenge has been to keep my feet on the ground (and my legs together).'

What do you do, hop around?

But hey, I had forgotten about drugs and their ability to heighten awareness. What's that all about anyway? HOw does it actually work? Weren't drugs the ultimate proof that there are other states of consciousness? And why can't we experience those states all the time? Hey, maybe we can, maybe if we just found someone who knew how to do it? A master, I know a Perfect master. we should seek the perfect master of our time! But, where do we look? How can we find him?

At this point, Blue Aquarius kicked in with Foxfire and that was it for me!
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Date: Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 18:10:26 (EST)
From: bftb
Email: None
To: John
Subject: eb the bunny
Message:
It's interesting to me that many people assumed that drug experiences were proof of other states of consciousness.In fact the more I think of it if anything they should have proven for people that everything is in fact in our brains.Those experiences were so powerful simply because people -were- experiencing a 'different' or brand new consciousness.Hey...that was quite revolutionary!All drugs do is mess with our brain chemistry and normal functioning,that's it.Smelling sound,seeing sound....etc happened because people were impairing certain neurotransmitters so that they couldn't do their job properly and sent all kinds of wrong signals back and forth.

Like....WOW!

And that was enlightenment?Messing with our brains? So silly.

It's interesting how so many premies had had experience with re-arranging their brain chemistry before meeting M.I think it primed a lot of people to be susceptible to much hokum.
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Date: Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 19:31:01 (EST)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: bftb
Subject: eb the bunny
Message:
Exactly. Thanks, btfb. I also think you can mess with your brain chemistry without drugs, but it takes much longer. It requires devotion.
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Date: Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 20:18:55 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: bftb
Subject: THANK YOU-- BFTB
Message:
bftb, thank you for this breeze of common sense. This is my view exactly. I used to have some mysticism and 'consciousness-think' about drugs, too. But I think you have hit the nail on the head. Drugs can be fun, they can be dangerous and awful, but all they do is distort, provide interference with brain chemistry. They don't, and never did, free you to see some other reality.
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Date: Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 20:32:47 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: A possible exception
Message:
They don't, and never did, free you to see some other reality.

Does this include beer? (hick)
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Date: Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 20:42:48 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: A possible exception
Message:
Beer is not a drug. Beer if food. Nourishing, wonderful, food. Food of the gods. As such, it allows you to see god, and is therefore greater than god.
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Date: Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 20:54:58 (EST)
From: nigel
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: A possible exception
Message:
You must have had a few, otherwise - hic - you'd know it's spelled 'hic' - well at least that one was. Hic...
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Date: Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 21:52:45 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: nigel
Subject: A possible exception
Message:
Good god! Thanks for the spelling lesson. I was total sober but that was then (hick) (sic)
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Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 10:22:52 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: bftb
Subject: drugs and higher consciousness
Message:
dear bftb,
I took a lot of LSD the year that I was 15 in order to try and attain some sort of higher spiritual consciousness. (Almost all my trips were pretty scary and bad, so I can really say that I didn't do it for fun.) I think part of the reason that people thought you could find enlightenment through psychedelics is because:

- there was a history of using psychedelic drugs for spiritual purposes (e.g. American Indians and peyote, many other examples)

- a lot of the experiences people had while taking psychedelics were similar to those described in spiritual texts. I think the big one was 'Tibetan Book of the Dead', can't remember any others.

- there was a lot of contemporary literature that said that psychedelics could be used as a path to higher consciousness - part of Be Here Now, the Don Juan books (even though they're made up, they were very influential), Electric Kool-Aid Acid Test. Those books really influenced me, probably more than any others that I read during that time.

I believed implicitly that taking LSD was a step on the spiritual path. I remember being shocked years later when I worked around these kids who were mixing LSD with speed, beer, pot, and so on JUST TO HAVE FUN. Actually part of the reason I was shocked was because taking LSD was usually a really UNfun experience for me.

Anyway, I quit tripping when I started going to satsang because I thought I'd found a better way to attain enlightenment. Plus premies weren't supposed to take drugs (thank god or who knows what shape my brain would be in now!)
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Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 12:22:07 (EST)
From: bftb
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: drugs and higher consciousness
Message:
I hear ya...believe me,I hear ya.
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Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 13:53:29 (EST)
From: eb
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: drugs and higher consciousness
Message:
Dear Katie,
Sometimes your posts are eerie to me because our paths have been so similar.

You jogged another memory for me: I used to believe that LSD healed me from the Mormon cult in which I was raised, and I believed that Maharaji healed me from my excessive use of LSD (which was my drug of choice). I kept thinking that if I would just practice Knowledge properly, I would have the cosmic experiences I had on acid. And sometimes I did have outrageous experiences! I used to pass out after darshan, leave my body, get the shakes, see lots of lights and colors. I got sick of getting high and then crashing and blaming myself for not doing it right.

Thanks for reminding me, Katie.
eb
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Date: Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 07:16:23 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: eb & Katie
Subject: drugs and higher consciousness
Message:
I want to share with you guys about a dream I had over 10 years ago. I was at a kind of party watching a movie, and there were lots of trippy colours coming out of the screen, like being on LSD.

Later I walked down a dark road, and turned to speak (in french) to two children following me.

Then I climed a wall and saw a boat. I thought, why not get into it so I did, and pushed off. Then I looked into the water and saw a shape in the water. I felt dread and fear, like 'why do I always do this? (be so foolhardy and daring). Then the form rose to the surface, or else I sunk, and we merged. It was a white ghostly form.

(this is not mystical - it was a dream)

I went on in another post recently saying there was no link I could see between M and LSD, until I remembered this dream. Because, sure enough, when I started going to videos I 'knew' that's the movie I saw myself watching in the dream.

It was not a nightmare, just one part of it I got scared.

Also, Katie, I really want to say that to me you are on 'higher ground', you come from a place where someone like M would love to be. Whatever your life experience, it has made you a grounded, considerate and very capable woman (and I've got the wolves on my fridge). And eb, I am still getting to know you - and love your honesty.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 10:54:49 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Judex
Subject: Thanks, Judex
Message:
Wow, what a nice thing to say! I really appreciate it, Judex - it made me feel very good.
Thank you!
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Date: Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 12:23:07 (EST)
From: eb
Email: None
To: Judex
Subject: drugs and higher consciousness
Message:
Wow, what a dream! I love it. Thanks for telling us.

Tripped while running with wolves,
eb
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Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 05:41:48 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: eb
Subject: Blunting Occam's Razor
Message:
Dear eb
Your husband sounds like good news. Where did you find him?
(just kidding)
Yes orange barrells - I remember taking that (a 12-way trip, whatever that means) and ending up out of my body, then later eating honey and playing Lord of the Rings games near the little sea-side town where I now live.
How will I tell stories to my grandchilden? (if I live that long)
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Date: Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 17:20:29 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Stephen Harris
Subject: Blunting Occam's Razor
Message:
Stephen,

I too, was well primed by Autobiography of a Yogi as well as the Gita, Upanishads, and a couple of general Eastern philosophy and yoga books while still in high school. (When I should have been studying physics.)
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Date: Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 16:08:18 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Blunting Occam's Razor
Message:
Nigel,

I agree with you completely except for your mention of the 'cold fusion' guys from Utah. I thought they were discredited and simply dropped out of view rather than face the music. Didn't they fail to show up for their big press conference, the one where they were expected to answer to the various other scientific teams that were unable to get the same results from their experiments? I THINK that's what happened.

Anyway, besides that, the reason I don't want to keep mixing it up with all the 'spiritually-inclined' here is that their general tenor seems to be 'ignorance is bliss'. 'Oooooh, I love that mystery!' Well, fine. They can have it.
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Date: Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 18:31:16 (EST)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Blunting Occam's Razor
Message:
Nigel, I don't have time to respond to all the details of your post.
But I'll try and say something here.
( I have to take my sick car to get healed soon).

Actually I am no expert when it comes to all this 'proof' stuff.
I just threw in the TART because I'd read that .
But I don't need to qualify the significance of paranormal experience by providing hard data.
I really don't have the time nor the inclination to go too far down that road.
But I would like to add a few comments about drug use.
I experimented with drugs for a few years up to 1980.
And my own understanding of altered states of consciousness via drug use is that what is being experienced is beyond mere brain -chemical activity.
Of course chemical activity is strongly altered but chemical and in general material (measurable) processes are parellel 'universes' to other more subtle, psychic/spiritual ones.
We exist in a multi-dimensional (inter and over-lapping)
universe(a mega-uni-verse of lesser universes) (gestalt theory).
I agree with Tart in so far as some drugs can induce some of the time valid paranormal states of consciousness.
Disprove that Nigel!!
Also as with scientists paranormalists move on.
Yesterdays discovery is todays stepping stone.
But todays knowledge does not always invalidate yesterdays .... often updates it .
Keith
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Date: Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 19:01:00 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: Sharpen your mind, Keith
Message:
I agree with Tart in so far as some drugs can induce some of the time valid paranormal states of consciousness.
Disprove that Nigel!!


Keith,

You really miss the whole thing, bud. The burden of proof's on the claimant.

Furthermore, the more extraordinary the claim, the greater the evidence you should have to make your point.

If I argued that it must have rained last night and you asked for the proof, I could rightfully satisfy you by saying that my neighbour told me. Hey, it rains all the time. No big deal, a little proof'll do ya. If, on the other hand, I argued that aliens landed last night, my telling you that my neighbours said as much should NOT satisfy.

Get it?
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Date: Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 19:29:05 (EST)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Thanks Jim
Message:
Where would I be without you Jim.
Only one question;
Who makes the rules?

But really, my point is ...I can't bother with all this
prove it to me stuff.
If you enjoy all these sooo precise scientific formula's for understanding the universe..and yourself.....then good for you....enjoy!!
The simplest proof of experience, for me , is as M has often said (cringe ... puke..) , happening right under my nose!
Everything else is a fringe benifit.
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Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 05:52:01 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: Thanks Jim
Message:
Keith I think the point is, why should we not believe M is the perfect master who show us conscious contact with our own souls/eternity/infinity/beyond the cycle of rebirths, but still choose to believe in some sort of parallel universe situation where other worlds lapse into ours, etc?
What is the use of all these thoughts? If you have experiences, great, but should we all believe in such concepts, it's as bad as Maharaji. Don't you see the connection with all the hazy thoughts that got us into his cult? It's dangerous to just let acceptances of any ideas be good simply because people who ask you to prove what you say must be dictators.
They are just asking you for a reality check, I think.
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Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 07:15:54 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: Judex
Subject: to Keith
Message:
Keith, ouch! I just read your friendly post to me in a later thread and already feel regret for being a bit 'snappy' here. I probably haven't even properly addressed what you were saying, just went all perverse and felt like defending Logic and Facts!

Anyway I realised I am doing it again, middle child, trying to mediate betwee two 'factions'. Trying to reconcile, balance and harmonise (Libra moon)

However it ends up making me feel a bit split (sun/moon opposition). How interesting to see how I think of myself is based on ideas someone once told me which I took as 'Facts'.

Yes, that proves Facts are dangerous, yet to accept Mysticism unquestioningly is also the path to ruin, me feels....

Perhaps there needs to be a synthesis of this kind of polarity into a higher truth. What that is is yet to be discovered....

(also enjoy your kind-hearted sharing, Keith)
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Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 12:06:40 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Judex
Subject: to Keith
Message:
Judex,

You previous post to Keith was absolutely clear. It's ridiculous for you to feel apologetic for it. This post here is absolutely unnecessary. Look, is there a single thing in your prior post you recant? A single thing you said you don't agree with? Of course not. So why be so apologetic?

Sometimes, Judex, you've just got to call it straight.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 07:25:20 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: to Keith
Message:
You're right, Jim.

Imagine a child poking their tongue out and then getting their face slapped. I am still ducking, every time I assert myself. I am so afraid of people not 'liking' me, because I fear there is so much to dislike about me (false pride, total dickhead etc) that when they attack me (back), I will never recover from the shame.

Or maybe I just don't want to accept the consequences of actually coming out and saying something and standing by it. ouch! On the other hand...it feels like there are two me's. They need to be able to speak simultaneously, not one after the other. Do you have changes of heart? Times when you regret your strong mind but which denies kindness? I know mine does. My mind is pretty bloody ruthless, if you want to know the truth.

I feel I lack compassion. What is your great weakness? Do you know it?
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Date: Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 20:11:06 (EST)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: Blunting Occam's Razor
Message:
I agree with Tart in so far as some drugs can induce some of the time valid paranormal states of consciousness.
Disprove that Nigel!


It doesn't need disproving, Keith. It needs establishing beyond reasonable doubt. Are you up to the task?
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Date: Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 19:55:17 (EST)
From: nigel
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Blunting Occam's Razor
Message:
Well yes and no, Jim, regarding the 'leave them to it' line.

First, my recollection of the cold fusion'' team may be flawed, but that's probably the least of our worries. Maybe that was a bad example. For me the best example is this crazy English guy from around 150 years ago who didn't publish his unusual theory straight out, not so much - as many believe - because he was afraid of society's condemnation, but because there were certain problems he hadn't resolved regarding how it is that important evolutionary advantages occurring by what he called 'natural selection' become established within a population, instead of just blending back in with the general hoi polloi in later generations. Darwin actually had a copy of Mendel's theory of genetics (found in his study after his death) which he had never read. It was the solution to his problem had he but known it. But that's not the point, here. Can you imagine Charles Tart waiting twenty years just to make sure he wasn't wrong before publishing?

As to the 'ignorance is bliss' matter. I deeply sympathise. We could just leave them all to it, but I worry a bit about who might be reading the forum - aspirants especially. I think a good invigorating skeptical blast now and then can freshen things up a bit, otherwise you could easily end up with with week upon week of 'Mysteries' threads. Not healthy IMHO.
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Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 04:06:12 (EST)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: nigel and everyone
Subject: Blunting the sceptical razor
Message:
Nigel said, 'I think a good invigorating skeptical blast now and then can freshen things up a bit, otherwise you could easily end up with with week upon week of 'Mysteries' threads.'
Well , I'd just love to provide week after week of mystical threads to liven up what otherwise might be week after week of 'sceptical' and 'materialistic' threads.
Viva la 'variety' (sorry, my french amounts to about 10 words). Sacre bleu!
Keith
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Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 14:32:19 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: An advertisement
Message:
To join an email list for discussing mysteries:

Click here to subscribe to magicalmysterytour
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