Ex-Premie.Org

Forum III Archive # 11

From: Jun 7, 1998

To: Jun 15, 1998

Page: 3 Of: 5



Keith -:- Maharaji and mysticism -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 20:35:07 (EST)
__Petebear -:- Maharaji and mysticism -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 21:22:52 (EST)
____Keith -:- Maharaji and mysticism -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 21:46:47 (EST)
______Katie -:- Maharaji and mysticism -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 22:24:06 (EST)
________Robyn -:- Katie -:- Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 11:56:32 (EST)
__________Katie -:- Katie -:- Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 12:07:53 (EST)
________Robyn -:- 2nd try Katie -:- Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 13:33:21 (EST)
__________Katie -:- 2nd try Katie -:- Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 14:29:30 (EST)
____________Robyn -:- 2nd try Katie -:- Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 15:50:53 (EST)
______Robyn -:- Maharaji and mysticism -:- Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 11:52:34 (EST)
________Katie -:- Sleepless in PA -:- Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 12:15:51 (EST)
__________Robyn -:- Sleepless in PA -:- Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 13:35:20 (EST)
________petebear -:- Maharaji and mysticism -:- Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 20:06:00 (EST)
__________Robyn -:- Maharaji and mysticism -:- Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 22:55:57 (EST)
____carol -:- Maharaji and mysticism -:- Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 03:51:54 (EST)
____Robyn -:- Maharaji and mysticism -:- Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 11:19:38 (EST)
__Scott T. -:- Maharaji and mysticism -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 22:20:34 (EST)
____Katie -:- Yo Scott - off topic -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 22:25:11 (EST)
______Keith -:- Yo Scott - off topic -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 22:49:26 (EST)
________Katie -:- To keith -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 23:28:11 (EST)
__________Keith -:- To Katie -:- Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 01:17:20 (EST)
____________Katie -:- To Katie -:- Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 10:07:41 (EST)
______________carol -:- To Katie -:- Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 05:17:20 (EST)
______Scott T. -:- Yo Scott - off topic -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 23:14:53 (EST)
________Keith -:- Yo Scott - off topic -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 23:35:55 (EST)
__________Scott T. -:- Mysticism -:- Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 01:05:46 (EST)
__*<*...strike a pose -:- there IS nothing to it. -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 23:46:55 (EST)
____Keith -:- there IS nothing to it. -:- Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 00:03:09 (EST)
______*<*...b -:- madonna -:- Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 01:10:04 (EST)
________Keith -:- madonna? -:- Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 01:40:37 (EST)
__________bb -:- g'day mate -:- Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 07:25:27 (EST)
________carol -:- zardo*<* -:- Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 03:49:04 (EST)

Gerry -:- BM and Swiss bank accounts -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 17:00:00 (EST)
__John Hammond-Smythe, Jr. -:- BM and Swiss bank accounts -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 17:24:40 (EST)
____Gerry -:- BM and Swiss bank accounts -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 17:33:24 (EST)
______x -:- BM and Swiss bank accounts -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 18:45:41 (EST)
________Gerry -:- BM and Swiss bank accounts -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 19:12:06 (EST)
________Scott T. -:- Automated Symbiosis -:- Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 10:41:40 (EST)
__________Gerry -:- Automated Symbiosis -:- Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 13:15:16 (EST)
____Original J Hammond-Smyth -:- BM and Swiss bank accounts -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 19:31:37 (EST)
______Gerry -:- BM and Swiss bank accounts -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 19:42:43 (EST)
______eb -:- Now I know who you are... -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 22:37:57 (EST)
______Iola -:- BM and Swiss bank accounts -:- Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 19:27:40 (EST)
________Gerry -:- BM and Swiss bank accounts -:- Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 19:46:01 (EST)
__Selena -:- BM and Swiss bank accounts -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 21:05:55 (EST)
____Katie -:- BM and his finances -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 21:12:27 (EST)

Judex -:- Mysticism & Self Esteem -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 16:39:03 (EST)
__Iola -:- Mysticism & Self Esteem -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 18:45:08 (EST)
____Keith -:- Mysticism & Self Esteem -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 19:58:21 (EST)
______Robyn -:- Mysticism & Self Esteem -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 20:14:20 (EST)
______Gerry -:- Come home, Patriot Son -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 20:21:33 (EST)
__Bovine products man -:- Mysticism & Self Esteem -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 20:24:30 (EST)
____Robyn -:- Mysticism & Self Esteem -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 20:33:44 (EST)
______Keith -:- Mysticism & Self Esteem -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 21:06:18 (EST)
________Jim -:- Keith's false courage -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 21:34:07 (EST)
________Cottage cheese -:- Mysticism & Self Esteem -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 21:57:35 (EST)
__________Mirabai -:- Mysticism & Self Esteem -:- Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 04:40:26 (EST)
________Robyn -:- Mysticism & Self Esteem -:- Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 09:44:28 (EST)
____Judex -:- I'm impressed -:- Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 03:57:37 (EST)
__charles -:- Mysticism & Self Esteem -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 21:41:59 (EST)
____Keith -:- Mysticism & Self Esteem -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 22:59:47 (EST)
______charles -:- Mysticism & Self Esteem -:- Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 00:03:30 (EST)
________Keith -:- Mysticism & Self Esteem -:- Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 00:22:28 (EST)
____Judex -:- Mysticism & Self Esteem -:- Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 04:05:34 (EST)
__*<*....b -:- pardo speaks -:- Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 00:53:59 (EST)
____Judex -:- pardo speaks -:- Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 04:16:54 (EST)
____Robyn -:- pardo speaks -:- Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 10:23:27 (EST)
__carol -:- Mysticism & Self Esteem -:- Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 03:11:19 (EST)
____Judex -:- To Carol -:- Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 04:21:16 (EST)
______David of Cheddar -:- To Carol -:- Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 21:30:07 (EST)
________carol -:- To Carol -:- Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 03:29:03 (EST)
__________Robyn -:- To Carol -:- Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 10:16:31 (EST)
________Mirabai -:- To David -:- Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 05:12:18 (EST)
____Katie -:- Self esteem and self respect -:- Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 10:30:57 (EST)
____Robyn -:- Mysticism & Self Esteem -:- Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 10:38:08 (EST)
____charles -:- Mysticism & Self Esteem -:- Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 12:11:02 (EST)
______Robyn -:- Carol -:- Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 13:49:59 (EST)
________charles -:- Robyn -:- Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 02:40:13 (EST)
__________Judex -:- to Charles -:- Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 08:34:43 (EST)
____carol -:- Mysticism & Self Esteem -:- Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 14:23:38 (EST)
______Selena -:- Mysticism & Self Esteem -:- Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 16:12:33 (EST)
________Robyn -:- Mysticism & Self Esteem -:- Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 23:02:29 (EST)
__________Selena -:- Mysticism & Self Esteem -:- Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 23:27:25 (EST)
____________Selena -:- Mysticism & Self Esteem -:- Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 23:37:56 (EST)
______________carol -:- the Truman Show -:- Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 03:13:52 (EST)
________________Selena -:- the Truman Show -:- Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 21:33:57 (EST)
__________________carol -:- the Truman Show -:- Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 23:14:04 (EST)
________carol -:- Mysticism & Self Esteem -:- Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 03:06:02 (EST)
____eb -:- Carol--Unanswered posts -:- Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 15:20:47 (EST)
______carol -:- Carol--Unanswered posts -:- Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 03:20:45 (EST)
________Robyn -:- Carol--Unanswered posts -:- Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 10:22:16 (EST)

JW -:- The Christian Cult -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 14:15:29 (EST)
__Dairy produce man -:- The Christian Cult -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 14:34:18 (EST)
____JW -:- The Christian Cult -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 14:47:46 (EST)
______*<*...b -:- The 700 Cult -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 22:46:37 (EST)
________bftb -:- The 700 Cult -:- Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 11:51:33 (EST)
__________Selena -:- The 700 Cult -:- Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 15:48:58 (EST)
____________Judex -:- Seinfeld for God -:- Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 05:56:23 (EST)
______________John -:- Seinfeld for God??? -:- Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 12:23:16 (EST)
________________bftb -:- Seinfeld for God??? -:- Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 13:32:58 (EST)
__________________JW -:- Seinfeld for God??? -:- Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 16:56:42 (EST)
__bftb -:- The Christian Cult -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 14:52:09 (EST)
____eb -:- The Christian Cult -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 18:53:33 (EST)
______Robyn -:- The Christian Cult -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 19:13:55 (EST)
________eb -:- Hi Robyn -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 19:25:41 (EST)
______Judex -:- not fundamental -:- Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 04:48:38 (EST)
________Selena -:- not fundamental -:- Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 15:54:16 (EST)
__________Judex -:- to Selena -:- Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 06:07:28 (EST)
____________Selena -:- to Judex -:- Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 15:52:55 (EST)
____Joy -:- The Christian Cult -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 21:08:36 (EST)
__Robyn -:- The Christian Cult -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 14:57:11 (EST)
__John -:- The Christian Cult -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 16:14:00 (EST)
____JW -:- Christian Cult (bftb and John) -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 17:01:05 (EST)
__Selena -:- The Christian Cult -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 18:12:05 (EST)
____JW -:- The Christian Cult -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 18:19:45 (EST)
______x -:- The Christian Cult -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 18:56:11 (EST)
________Keith -:- IS THIS ABOUT MAHARAJI? -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 20:08:36 (EST)
__________Selena -:- IS THIS ABOUT MAHARAJI? -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 20:19:01 (EST)
____________Selena -:- bm and the full moon -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 20:30:59 (EST)
______________Gerry -:- Wicca -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 22:54:38 (EST)
________________Selena -:- Wicca -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 23:36:59 (EST)
______________-------((((((((.....broom -:- witch hazel -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 23:25:55 (EST)
________________Selena -:- witch hazel -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 23:35:20 (EST)
____________Robyn -:- IS THIS ABOUT MAHARAJI? -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 20:37:40 (EST)
______________Selena -:- off topic from bm -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 20:50:55 (EST)
______________charles -:- IS THIS ABOUT MAHARAJI? -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 22:24:59 (EST)
________________Robyn -:- Charles -:- Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 10:46:35 (EST)
__________JW -:- IS THIS ABOUT MAHARAJI? -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 23:08:50 (EST)
____________Robyn -:- IS THIS ABOUT MAHARAJI? -:- Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 10:52:15 (EST)
____________charles -:- christianity & BM -:- Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 02:57:14 (EST)
______________carol -:- christianity & BM -:- Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 04:55:41 (EST)
____*<*...b -:- The promise keeperettes -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 23:15:02 (EST)
______Selena -:- The promise keeperettes -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 23:26:16 (EST)
________Keith -:- The promise keeperettes -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 23:44:38 (EST)
__________Selena -:- The promise keeperettes -:- Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 00:00:12 (EST)
______eb -:- The promise keeperettes -:- Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 00:56:44 (EST)
________charles -:- growing old, no promises -:- Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 03:16:42 (EST)
__________PaulR -:- growing old, no promises -:- Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 16:42:16 (EST)
____________Iola -:- growing old, no promises -:- Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 18:20:22 (EST)
______________Selena -:- growing old, no promises -:- Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 18:36:27 (EST)
______________Joy -:- growing old, no promises -:- Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 22:26:26 (EST)
__________carol -:- growing old, no promises -:- Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 19:24:32 (EST)

Brian -:- Children Attending Events -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 13:36:43 (EST)
__Selena -:- Children Attending Events -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 17:35:00 (EST)
____Iola -:- Children Attending Events -:- Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 23:53:04 (EST)

Jim -:- Keith's tea room - NOT! -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 11:50:25 (EST)
__Robyn -:- Keith's tea room - NOT! -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 11:59:52 (EST)
____Jim -:- Keith's tea room - NOT! -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 12:08:29 (EST)
______Robyn -:- Jim -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 12:33:39 (EST)
________Rick -:- Refresher Course -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 13:20:49 (EST)
__________Katie -:- Slight correction -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 13:57:48 (EST)
____________Rick -:- Slight correction -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 14:33:44 (EST)
______________JW -:- Rick -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 19:27:52 (EST)
________________Rick -:- JW -:- Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 00:30:54 (EST)
__________Robyn -:- Refresher Course -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 15:04:39 (EST)
__________Robyn -:- Jim -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 19:24:20 (EST)
__Anon -:- Keith's tea room - NOT! -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 15:53:22 (EST)
____Robyn -:- Keith's tea room - NOT! -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 16:23:31 (EST)
______Anon -:- Keith's tea room - NOT! -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 16:49:22 (EST)
________Robyn -:- Keith's tea room - NOT! -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 18:43:18 (EST)
________Jim -:- Et tu, Anon? -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 20:39:53 (EST)
__________Katie -:- Et tu, Jim? -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 21:09:43 (EST)
____________Jim -:- Et tu, Jim? -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 21:27:09 (EST)
______________Katie -:- Thanks for the apology, Jim -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 21:33:05 (EST)
________________Gerry -:- Thanks for the apology, Jim -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 22:48:40 (EST)
________________eb -:- A Mind Divided -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 23:18:55 (EST)
__________________Katie -:- A Mind Divided -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 23:46:58 (EST)
____________________eb -:- A Mind Divided -:- Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 01:23:36 (EST)
______________________Katie -:- A Mind Divided -:- Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 10:01:49 (EST)
____________________Robyn -:- A Mind Divided -:- Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 11:01:48 (EST)
____________Scott T. -:- Et tu, Jim? -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 23:03:00 (EST)
______________Robyn -:- Et tu, Jim? -:- Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 11:06:43 (EST)
______________Katie -:- Et tu, Jim? -:- Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 11:20:35 (EST)
__________Keith -:- Read my type! -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 21:30:09 (EST)
____________Iola -:- Read my type! -:- Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 00:26:23 (EST)
______________Judex -:- To Iola -:- Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 06:19:10 (EST)
__________JW -:- Et tu, Anon? -:- Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 23:06:32 (EST)
__________Robyn -:- Jim -:- Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 10:00:14 (EST)
____________Rick -:- Robyn -:- Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 10:59:27 (EST)
______________Robyn -:- Robyn -:- Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 11:10:59 (EST)


Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 20:35:07 (EST)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Maharaji and mysticism
Message:
There is a link you know! Between Maharaji and mysticism.
But first I'd like to look at the semantics involved .
Maharaji probably would not approve of how I'm expressing myself here.
He does not endorse or encourage language that evokes controversy.
He tries (these days) to neutralise his words ....and I can appreciate that...but that's him.
I feel , in my words , that Maharaji is a mystic .
And therefore in rejecting Maharaji there is a good chance that one might reject mysticism too.
Or one can exchange the term mysticism for spirituality.
Same thing...essentially.
Maharaji has tried very hard to keep these words out of the premie nomenclature.
But that is like seeing a cat and refusing to name it a cat .
Lets just say it's an animal. It's alive. It breaths.
Therefore, it is possible to walk away from Maharaji and yet keep ones faith in mysticism and/or spirituality alive.
But for many ex's it seems that this is not the case.
It's a bit like ...one bad apple and let's throw the whole case away.
Let's burn the whole apple orchard. Don't even say the word apple! It makes me want to puke!!
That's a shame.
But Maharaji is a mystic or he is a total fraud.
And I don't believe he is a total fraud.

To put into perspective though; I am many things. So are you.
So is Maharaji.
I am a father. I am a husband. I am a friend. I am a rationalist. I am a mystic. I have arms and legs and organs....
Why deny a part of oneself?

Is the brain my creator?
Is there a creator?
Maharaji thinks there is a creator. I do too.
And like maharaji I believe that the creator is within us.
It is our power source. It is mysterious. It is a spiritual reality. It moves us in strange ways.
Keith
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Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 21:22:52 (EST)
From: Petebear
Email: petebear@ozemail.com.au
To: Keith
Subject: Maharaji and mysticism
Message:
Hello there! My first posting here.

I have found that many separations require a time of adversarial relating to the original condition.

For example -
1) yound adults taking up totally contrary views to their parents
2) separated couples hating everything about the departed one

In my training (with group work and human development paradigms)this has been called 'taking up the counter-script'. If done for a period of time this can assist with separating and the expression of previously unexporessed feelings. However it is never a solution as it keeps the person in a strong relationship with the original condition. Therefore - for many years I was a connected to M by my dislike and difficulties with him as I had been when I was more in it.

So the counter-script can lead to a rejection of all the thinking, feelings and actions that were part of the original condition's experience. So I reject myself, criticise myself, dislike myself, distrust myself - and do the same to others especially others that look at all like what I have just been through - eg anything mystical, esoteric, etc. all of which are OK for a short while. But at some point I need to review what I did learn and did like about that part of my life.

I try to develop a new script that is neither the original one nor totally a rejection or response to the original one but has to do with what I want to create in my own life.

Cheers

Peter Howie
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Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 21:46:47 (EST)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: Petebear
Subject: Maharaji and mysticism
Message:
Makes sense to me Peter,
I hope that others here will really contemplate what you are saying here.
I am so grateful that I don't feel a need to take an extreme position...or a strongly reactionary one to those things that associate with my past. Of course I do react associatively sometimes but it's all a matter of degree and how conscious one is , isn't it?
And the need to express these divergent parts of oneself including the positive aspects is I feel very vital to ones health.
And that's why any censoring of what people need to express on this forum is a trend which is really unhealthy.
In fact it is that type of censorship that has primarily been the reason for me leaving Maharaji and EV behind.
How ironic!
Thanks for the post Peter,
Regards Keith
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Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 22:24:06 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Keith
Subject: Maharaji and mysticism
Message:
Dear Keith - I feel that you are taking an unnecessarily adversarial and embattled stance here (perhaps your Krishna and Arjuna mode kicking in again?) I don't think anyone on the forum wants to censor posts.

I think people should be able to talk about what they want. But what I don't like is the constant arguing that goes on when people post things that others don't agree with or find distasteful. It's unavoidable that this arguing is going to happen between premies and ex-premies, because the one unique thing about this forum is it is the ONLY place on the Internet where people can discuss Maharaji freely. I accept that people are going to challenge my views on Maharaji when I post here.

But as far as talking about astrology, tarot, or communications after death, I'd rather do it somewhere where I can do it in peace. I'm not interested in arguing about it. I know that Michael probably feels the same way about discussing his Christianity in any kind of depth on the forum. I think that is why Gerry set up the list-serv. I think it was a nice thing for him to do. Ditto for the 'screaming memes' one (I love that name, Gerry!)

I sense, however, that you probably DON'T feel the need to talk about those things in peace, and that you would even enjoy arguing about those things with Jim and Nigel. Thus your feeling of censorship, etc. So I say, go ahead and talk about anything you want on the forum - but please try and understand why other people may not want to.

Regards,
Katie
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Date: Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 11:56:32 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: Katie
Subject: Katie
Message:
Dear Katie,
I'd be interested in your take on why I felt like I was going to be more than censored, through out with my thoughts, experiences and deep connection I have to that part of my spiritual self. I don't mind if you aren't interested in taking this any further, no problem, I'd just like to know if you'd like to tell me.
Robyn
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Date: Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 12:07:53 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Katie
Message:
Robyn - I'd love to answer, but I don't really understand what you mean to say! Can you explain it a little more clearly?
Thanks,
K
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Date: Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 13:33:21 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: Katie
Subject: 2nd try Katie
Message:
Dear Katie,
Sorry, does this quote help?

Dear Keith - I feel that you are taking an unnecessarily adversarial and embattled stance here (perhaps your Krishna and Arjuna mode kicking in again?) I don't think anyone on the forum wants to censor posts.

I don't think of myself as normally taking unnecessary and adversarial and embattled stances and yet felt drawn to the same conclusion...the possibility of the forum censoring my posts. That is why I mentioned, a couple times, to possibly deferr to the committee.
Robyn
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Date: Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 14:29:30 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: 2nd try Katie
Message:
Dear Robyn -
Brian just plain doesn't censor posts here, except for the circumstances mentioned in the forum guidelines (no violent threats, and no using other peoples identities, and, on certain occasions, spamming and harrassing other users of the forum). Your posts didn't fit any of those circumstances and wouldn't have been censored. I am not sure why you got that feeling - maybe because Jim was so strongly against the posts that you and Keith were making?

I was in favor of setting up the listserv because I was concerned about the possibility of a split in the forum that had nothing to do with Maharaji. This is something I wouldn't like to see. As I said to Keith, the forum is the only place on the internet where people can talk about Maharaji, Knowledge, etc. I think people really need the forum, and need the support of other ex-premies. This doesn't mean other things can't be discussed, and as you know, I love off-topic discussions, but I still feel that it's very important to keep the original purpose of the forum in mind. (I don't think we disagree on this!)

Hope this explains a little -
Katie
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Date: Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 15:50:53 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: Katie
Subject: 2nd try Katie
Message:
Dear Katie,
Yes, thanks hon.
Robyn
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Date: Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 11:52:34 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Keith
Subject: Maharaji and mysticism
Message:
Dear Keith,
I wanted to talk with you about something I am going through right now and was feeling sad that I would feel uncomfortable with all that was clashing here yesterday but I am encouraged by what has gone on here over night (for me). Maybe Petebear and others will have some help for me also.
I don't know, I think I mentioned yesterday but now I am taking a big step into unchartered territory in respect to my work on myself, my working on 'becoming more human' as david f called it which is apparently a buddist thing. I like the thought that I've come to this on my own without knowing anything about buddism. I have, for some 4 years been working in the general area of myself after spending 39 years coming to terms with my mother and asked this life force to please help me move things along faster. Things have but now on to my present question.
I have branched off from my work on myself to work on my relationship with my dad, men in general and relationships. I have given next to no consideration to my relationship with my dad as he is unable to even touch the edge of the subject, I wrote to him once many years ago and I know he got it, my mom told me, but he never acknoledged it. I kept telling myself I could wait until I was DONE working on myself to work on that but recently through emailing people from the forum and the forum itself I got to thinking he may not be around when I'm good and ready and although I don't expect him to be a knowing participant here I'd like to sneak whatever insights I can from gingerly talking to him.
I have noticed in the past that if I am hitting a block that if and when I become run down, sleepless, sick, it sometimes helps me not fight the growth, revelations, whatever is there to help me heal. I have been sleepless for 5 weeks and with my 2 jobs, teenager, animals, house, yard, this is getting to a dangerous point especially driving home from job 2 in the dusk or dark. The last 2 days have been the worst. I came down with a bad cold, further taking down my gards. I don't usually see this stuff until after the fact but I have been watching myself and see this as a possible part of this work I am doing. Then on the other hand I think maybe I should take the advice some have given me and get some melatonin. While getting ready for work this morning, crying the whole time I thought if this is happening to speed up my work I don't want to stop it but if I need to get sleep to carry on maybe meletonin. I know you can't make my desicion for me I'd just like some feed back, thanks.

Just to give you an idea of what is going on on Gerry's site I copied the email/post I just created and pasted it here, wish you'd reconsider joining us there or I'll want to copy everything so you can share it with me:
About 5 years ago a dear friend's young wife died in her sleep 2 days before they were to leave on their 2nd honeymoon. I was in college at the time and I think it was exam time and I couldn't get away to just be with my friend and people who had known Tracy. I just couldn't get right with her death. I was angry, very. I talked to Clo about it, my channeling, and more friend. She told me to imagine Don and send him white, blue and gold light. I did and it would look like a river and then just fade out. I did go to the funeral and just as I was starting out, on the hour drive, I heard a Journey song, We Touched and Went Our Separet Ways, not sure that is the name but that did it and I sobbed uncontollably the whole drive and kept visualizing the light going to Don. As I was coming down a hill into the outskirts of Towanda all of a sudden and having a life of it's own, blue light snapped around a protrait like picture of Don and their 4 children, whom I hadn't even been thinking about at all! It snaped and then pulsated for quite a few moments. Floored me!
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 12:15:51 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Sleepless in PA
Message:
Dear Robyn -
I am going to butt in here with some practical advice. Not sleeping combined with working as many hours as you do (with the long drive involved too) is DANGEROUS. I feel that you either need to get some sleep, by whatever means necessary, or take some time off from work. I also think that the sleepnessness may mean you might be avoiding something (sleeplessness = no dreams), but this could be totally off base.

Melatonin works well for me, and so does valerian (a herb). They can be taken in combination. If you buy valerian, make sure to get a standardized extract (such as those made by Celestial Seasonings). More expensive, but worth it. Also, some people say that kava kava (another herb) helps too, but it made me slightly nauseated.

Take care of yourself - I mean it! (that's assertive, isn't it??)

Love from Katie
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Date: Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 13:35:20 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: Katie
Subject: Sleepless in PA
Message:
Dear Katie,
Thank you dear. I'm going to the health store after tanning today. This has just become a bear!
Robyn
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Date: Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 20:06:00 (EST)
From: petebear
Email: petebear@ozemail.com.au
To: Robyn
Subject: Maharaji and mysticism
Message:
Hi Robyn.

Congratulations on branching out from yourself to working on your relationships. I work from a systemic perspective and believe that the whole system must be worked with in order to prodcue movement. So working on your relationship with your dad, men etc seems very worthwhile. And perhaps disturbing.

I'm a bit with Katie - you could be overdoing it. You could be sacrificing yourself, martyring yourself for some unseesn unacknowledged reason. The premie world is full of martyrdom and BM encourages the denial of self for the greater good.

Getting sick is a simple body method of saying 'slow down' you are not 21 anymore.

My dad died when I was 18 - I'm 41 now. I was a premie and the last to see him before he died at age 45. Being a good detached premie I didn't grieve about that until I was about 31, having left BM. I was working in an intense fashion with a psychodrama practitioner and this helped me to reconnect with my love for my dad. So I heartily encourage you to take the opportunity to reconnect with your dad. Gently, gently as you say. One trainer I worked with said they started with 10 minutes of simple companionship/discussion with their dad. They then attempted to increase it a few minutes each time until they reached over one hour before their dad died. Those hours were very previous to him.

Cheers for now

Peter Howie
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Date: Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 22:55:57 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: petebear
Subject: Maharaji and mysticism
Message:
Dear Petebear,
Thanks good advice all. I'll go to bed soon!
Robyn
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Date: Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 03:51:54 (EST)
From: carol
Email: None
To: Petebear
Subject: Maharaji and mysticism
Message:
Peter,
This makes alot of sense. Thanks, carol
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Date: Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 11:19:38 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Petebear
Subject: Maharaji and mysticism
Message:
Dear Petebear,
Thank you and welcome! That was a wonderful post and what you say at the end about a new script is what I started as a young child, discarding my parents teachings and starting out fresh. For me BM was just a part of my evolving, ever changing script.
Robyn
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Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 22:20:34 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: Maharaji and mysticism
Message:
Keith:

I feel , in my words , that Maharaji is a mystic .
And therefore in rejecting Maharaji there is a good chance that one might reject mysticism too.


I'm not going to clobber you, but think about this statement a little. Does it really make sense? If I reject Pat Buchanan does that mean I necessarily reject conservatism, or if I reject Francois Mitterand does that mean I reject social democracy? Not unless Buchanan = conservatism; or Mitterand = social democracy; or Maharaji = mysticism. But... that's the REAL hang-up.

Scott T.
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Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 22:25:11 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Yo Scott - off topic
Message:
How was your seminar? Have you recovered?
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Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 22:49:26 (EST)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: Katie and Scott
Subject: Yo Scott - off topic
Message:
Katie,
I don't agree with you here.
I would much rather have peace and harmony than argument and conflict.
But that is really unrealistic and idealistic...in a forum such as this.
The fact is that people here do disagree with each other.
And then the question is, ' why should any one 'faction' dominate or intimidate ? Why should people feel that they should buckle under and keep quiet...because their particular views on christianity, mysticism, spitituality , occult, ect are not appreciated by some here.
I also find dawkings, evolutional psychology and the like pretty boring but so what?
We all should have the right to express our own thoughts and feelings without being told we are not really welcome.
We cannot be 'nice' all the time. It's not even healthy.
IT'S GOOD ONCE IN A WHILE TO SAY ' I'm fucking angry with so and so'. or ' I'm really pissed off with so and so'.
Or more importantly to say, ' I strongly disagree with what you're saying'.
Scott, I'm not sure what you're getting at.
Keith
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Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 23:28:11 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: To keith
Message:
Keith - I think you answered a post that I made below in this space up here (in case this confuses anyone).

Anyway, you just see this in a different way than I do. For one thing - I don't see it in terms of one faction trying to gain control or dominate. I really don't see 'factions' on the forum. I think that a more accurate word might be 'personalities'.

I don't feel like I am being forced to 'buckle under and keep quiet' and not discuss mysticism, the occult or other types of sprituality on here. If I want to talk about those things on the forum, I will. Most of the time I choose not to discuss those things because I either don't have anything to say, or I don't feel like arguing about them. (note that 'don't feel like arguing' is NOT the same as being 'afraid to argue').

I strongly agree that everyone on the forum should have the right to freely express their own thoughts and feelings (with a few caveats as written in the forum guidelines). But I also have the right to choose NOT to argue about something that is not all that important to me, or to refuse to discuss something that is personal. I don't consider this to be 'backing down'. I consider this to be using my time wisely by not getting into arguments that I don't care enough about to sustain. I don't expect you to think and feel the same way I do - you may well want to argue passionately about something that I am fairly dispassionate about (like OBE's) or vice versa (women's issues).

I hope you can understand where I'm coming from.
Regards,
Katie
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Date: Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 01:17:20 (EST)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: To Katie
Message:
Katie, you wrote, 'I don't expect you to think and feel the same way I do - you may well want to argue passionately about something that I am fairly dispassionate about (like OBE's) or vice versa (women's issues).

I hope you can understand where I'm coming from.'

Well, of course most people feel passionate about something.
As you suggest , maybe womens issues for you, for example.
I definately feel passionate about a lot of things.
And of course we are not going to feel passionate about all of the same things....or even things at the same time.
And it's not that I want to argue about the things I feel passionately about either....more that in the attempt to share ones passions with others , especially in a forum like this where there are a cross section of views about a lot of things, it is ineviatable that we are going to step on toes here and there.
Certainly there's nothing like a vigourous debate, but when people begin to get rude and uncivil then I feel the tone of the enviroment suffers . I have been guilty of rudeness and incivility too. So we all must try and learn .
So Katie, perhaps we do see things a little differently,
but that's ok, isn't it?
I do 'feel' that you are too timid sometimes ...but that's my subjective perception.
Hope you don't have a problem with that.
Warm regards , Keith
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Date: Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 10:07:41 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: To Katie
Message:
Hi Keith -
I guess I don't see myself as 'timid', but I do think that I don't speak up for myself at times. Of course, because of this, at other times I just lose it and get TOO upset about something. I also have tendencies to 'people-pleasing' which I am trying to change. And I am cursed (or blessed) with the ability to see both sides of most questions - this drives me and other people crazy at times. You know what the I Ching says 'A double-minded woman is unstable in all her ways'!

I am working on being more assertive. If you think I am timid now, you should have seen me several years ago! My husband really encourages me to stand up for myself, so that's a big help.

Take care,
Katie
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Date: Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 05:17:20 (EST)
From: carol
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: To Katie
Message:
You said:And I am cursed (or blessed) with the ability to see both sides of most questions - this drives me and other people crazy at times. You know what the I Ching says 'A double-minded woman is unstable in all her ways'!

Katie..me too!!carol
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Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 23:14:53 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Yo Scott - off topic
Message:
Katie:

It went very well, thanks. I also spent some time with an ex-denizen of the infamous 'Argyle' and his lovely family. Some ex-premies are flourishing in more that material ways. Got a little sunburned lolling around on the beach, though. Tough life.

Kieth:

Ever heard the term 'mystique?' Have you heard it used lately to describe anything that deserves admiration? Just a word of caution, is all.

-Scott
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Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 23:35:55 (EST)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Yo Scott - off topic
Message:
Yeh Scott,
I think I know what you're hinting at.
I'm really not hung up with words .
Mystical, mysterious, mystique.....these are evocative words.
Your word of caution ...is received.
A word begins its humble life , lets say, as a mere pointer towards something....a symbol...a clue...but lo and behold, before you know where Amaroo is, this little innocent word has taken on a life of its own.
So it has been with 'mysticism'.
I forthwith declare that I'm happy to drop this word and any derivatives thereof into the forum bin for over-used and misunderstood words.
But Scott, now I shall have to unearth another word-symbol ...a replacement is needed.
Any suggestions?
Thanks anyway for the cautionary reminder.
Keith
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Date: Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 01:05:46 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: Mysticism
Message:
Keith:

I think you're misunderstanding. Well, maybe not entirely. There ARE three serious uses of words there. Mystique = con. Mystic = possibly genuine charisma.. Mystagogue = not so genuine spiritual autocrat. 'Mysticism,' indeed means almost nothing. 'New age.' I've found most new age philosophies to be even more insidious than Maharaji. Perhaps not because they are themselves so obnoxious, but because they lend themselves so easily to abuse. I don't think there is a cure. It's a terminal dis-ease. In other words it doesn't matter what word you use, the underlying concept is irredeemable.

So... back to the three serious uses. The Christian mystics (I don't know much about those from other faiths) seem genuine to me in the way that a train wreck is genuine. You can't argue with someone so completely un-self-conscious as St. Francis, etc. They were totally absorbed in resolving their own conscience, caring nothing about followers or for that matter the consequences of their manifest 'fear and trembling.' It's not a good model for a life, but my concern is charisma, not how to best order a life. As models of 'good charisma' they work, at least a little. They are clues to what I feel is a profound human dilemma. But look how they leave Maharaji in the dust... or is that not obvious?

-Scott
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Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 23:46:55 (EST)
From: *<*...strike a pose
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: there IS nothing to it.
Message:
Kieth old buddy, I think the thing that moves us in strange ways
is ourselves!
And our openness to others who direct us to do'strange' things.

Are you sure rawat meets the criteria for being called a
mystic? Not from what I read.

Dont fergit that there are two camps (at least).
One, the guys who ARE god, and it is only our lack of
understanding that keeps the rest of us from seeing that.

and two, those that think the bigger part we came from is concious
all by itself just like we are.
Those that think the power is concious are fragmented into
a zillion ideas, but the evidence remains that everyone that
claims that WE are god, become more strange over time and
also get far away from the very best of attitudes available in
life. The ones that you want at the last moment of life if you
COULD ONLY live longer. That parting shot when you see
clearer what your REAL opportunity was.

The ones we missed by playing self realised soul.
(or many other poses)
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Date: Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 00:03:09 (EST)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: *<*...strike a pose
Subject: there IS nothing to it.
Message:
Bill,
A quick few words ...I've got to go out.
I disagree and agree with you.
There's another word I'll gladly throw out....god!
You....Me...Humans are beings.
And beings have a simple source.
And this source is other than any beliefs .
It is !
And one can be conscious of this source.
And realise that we are this source.
And then we can understand that this source is not a mental construction.
We can deconstruct our thoughts and face the purity of
this source.
But damn , I choose to express this in words to you....and therefore I'm proof of multi-dimensionality.
Integration....ah, there's another word I like!
Keith
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Date: Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 01:10:04 (EST)
From: *<*...b
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: madonna
Message:
Hi there guy, I'll get back to you tomorrow night, it is
too late and I am a little spent from channeling zardo on
that other thread!
where do you live anyway?
regionally.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 01:40:37 (EST)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: *<*...b
Subject: madonna?
Message:
Bill,
I live down under or should that be under down?
Country Victoria.
BTW, as for the subject of posturing....you seem to be quite cynical here.....yes, most people do posture...pose.
But I feel that most people who post on this forum are sincere and place posing as something very insignificant.
We are truth seekers.
As for those who pose as gods or as new age know it alls, hold on !.....do not mix things up. It is really not so easy to know how much any individual is just posturing or is really expressing from a genuine experience and understanding.
I feel we should not judge to hastily.
Did you read petebears post up above. What do you think about what he said.
Keith
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Date: Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 07:25:27 (EST)
From: bb
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: g'day mate
Message:
Hi Kieth!
I didn't mean anything harsh to you, I think I am still
reacting to doc and others we had here.
I'll take another look at that post and see what the poseing thing
was trying to say.
I'm not exactly known for posting clearly coherent sentences.
I'll get back to you about Petebear.

I saw a map that had the soulth pole at the top.
It is quite a different view to see it that way.
You guys end up being the most prominent country in the world.
Whats your favorite mirabai poem?
Your wife is called mirabai right? She must have a book of her
poems.
got to go, busy time.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 03:49:04 (EST)
From: carol
Email: None
To: *<*...b
Subject: zardo*<*
Message:
I loved your channelling zardo post...put it in word to save!
carol
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Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 17:00:00 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: BM and Swiss bank accounts
Message:
Selena wrote:

There was a thread back in January about getting enuf info on M's finances to do something like this. I was new so it kind of blurred for me. It died out, I think because the trail ended in protected Swiss bank accounts.

Now there is something that should concern premies and aspirants!

Is the BM really squirrelling money away in secret accounts? Is this what happens when you give EV donations?

Come on premies, what about this one?
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Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 17:24:40 (EST)
From: John Hammond-Smythe, Jr.
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: BM and Swiss bank accounts
Message:
My dear deluded brother trapped in the web of good and bad, right and wrong, up and down, left and right, in and out, hither and yon:

It is the Lord's lila to have swiss bank account, to wear swiss watches, to eat swiss cheese on rye, to drink swiss miss hot chocolate drink, to use swiss army knife. The devotee's only wish is to see his Lord happy. This world is the Lord's playground. We are not here to look at our Lord with anything but the pure and simple love of a child.

Quit your evil judgements and prostrate yourself at the feet of the Lord before you are choked in the web of maya!!!
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Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 17:33:24 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: John Hammond-Smythe, Jr.
Subject: BM and Swiss bank accounts
Message:
John, isn't it time for your medicine?
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Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 18:45:41 (EST)
From: x
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: BM and Swiss bank accounts
Message:
Last night on H.B.O. I saw a documentary on pimps. The relationhips they had with the 'ho's',were identical to the BM's master/devotee trip. The ho's only purpose is to expand the pimps financial empire, thereby raising their own status in the process. The prostitutes(premies) do all the work and the pimp(BM) derives all the wealth. A symbiotic match made in hell.
x
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Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 19:12:06 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: x and JHS
Subject: BM and Swiss bank accounts
Message:
John will need a double dose after reading this, x, shame on you.
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Date: Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 10:41:40 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: x
Subject: Automated Symbiosis
Message:
x:

I have this image of Conan O'brien's 'pimpbot' character. Very funny.

-Scott
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Date: Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 13:15:16 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Automated Symbiosis
Message:
Hey maybe the dough goes straight from premies' credit cards into Maharaji's Swiss bank accounts.
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Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 19:31:37 (EST)
From: Original J Hammond-Smyth
Email: padded.cell@asylum.com
To: John Hammond-Smythe, Jr.
Subject: BM and Swiss bank accounts
Message:
Hey son, when are you going to come and visit me in my secure unit at the hospital? I am surrounded by ignorant souls who don't believe that Maharaji is the Lord. Your wasting your breath on these renegades, son. They'll never understand true, mindless devotion to someone who can only be understood by not thinking. Perhaps you could share some satsang with my nurse. Every time I give her satsang she puts my gag on me. But this is our Lords grace because I'm just throwing pearls before swine with her.

Bholey Shri Satguru Dev Maharaj Ki Jai!!!
Ananda Ganda Bal Bhagwan Ki Jai!!!

And now, let us sing arti...
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Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 19:42:43 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: BM and Swiss bank accounts
Message:
Oh no, now there's two of them!
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Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 22:37:57 (EST)
From: eb
Email: None
To: Original J Hammond-Smyth
Subject: Now I know who you are...
Message:
my first husband!

And if not, you sure sound like him.
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Date: Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 19:27:40 (EST)
From: Iola
Email: None
To: Original J Hammond-Smyth
Subject: BM and Swiss bank accounts
Message:
WOW! I can't believe I missed this one. I am currently printing out all of this stuff to distribute to my friends.

Here's one of Maharaji's latest pearls. He has repeated this story at about 10 different programs.

FROM MJ HIMSELF: 'There was this lady in Chile. At the end of the K session she told me that she experienced 'nothing.' I said 'nothing'? She said, 'nothing.' I said, 'nothing?' She said, 'nothing.' I said, 'You didn't experience anything?' She looked at me and smiled. (I guess the lady got tired of saying nothing!)

THAT, BY THE WAY, IS WHAT I EXPERIENCE WITH THE TECHNIQUES, TOO!
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Date: Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 19:46:01 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Iola
Subject: BM and Swiss bank accounts
Message:
THAT, BY THE WAY, IS WHAT I EXPERIENCE WITH THE TECHNIQUES, TOO!

Ditto
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Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 21:05:55 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: BM and Swiss bank accounts
Message:
Hi Gerry
I am sorry no one has given any serious answer to your query regarding the money and what work had been done to scope out M and his accounts. Are you able to download and unzip the archives? I believe those posts are from around January of this year.
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Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 21:12:27 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Selena and Gerry
Subject: BM and his finances
Message:
Here's what I know - things HAVE been done to investigate BM's and EV's finances. As far as I know, most of the details haven't been revealed on the forum because of investigations that might be pending. I am not sure of the status of these investigations at the present time.
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Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 16:39:03 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Mysticism & Self Esteem
Message:
Had a quick look this morning and seems one theme is to stay on topic.I agree when possible, but mysticism, love it or hate it, is definitely part of the sort of thinking that got us sucked in to Maharaji. 'There must be more than what reason tells me'. After all, I used many of the arguments I think of now about M and knowledge before I started to listen to M seriously. eg, how do you know he is the one, why do I need a master when surely god is bigger than that, and so on.

I satisfied myself that it couldn't be possible, but a part of me was longing for that 'impossible'. I suppose it may have been the part I filled up with a virtual addiction to astrology, tarot and I ching (previously belief changing and new age 'script writing').

I will do a thread on ideas about what addiction is, if you like, Jim, also, but one concept is - is it damaging you and your life, and can you stop if you want to. eg the guy who drinks 5 beers every night in the pub and goes home and beats his wife, but keeps a job and social acceptablility, could well be defined as alcoholic. Also, with the addictive personality, when you put down one addiction others pop up to take its place.

I'm just saying mysticism aint necessarily going to go away - it's almost a side-dish of the knowledge trip and as you have seen here most people relate to it (or not) - I don't know if it would turn premies off, or if we are 'meant' to represent something 'reformed' here - but I do get the drift that this is not a Forum about mysticism.

Ok - finally - self esteem. I mean I hope I'm not boring anyone who chooses to read this, but again, I woke up this morning with an insight, and this has been happening quite a bit since I've been here, and since I left 'knowledge'. It' that most of my troubles are about low self esteem. (I can't believe this, the first time I wrote that sentence I put 'its JUST that my troubles....Everything for me is JUST. I'm JUST dying!

For instance, I have never left a job voluntarily, because I thought it was not good enough for me. There is always economic fear, etc, and 'I can put up with it' and 'make the most of it' etc. It's directly linked to life in an abusive family group, where we all put each other down in various ways. I am seeing though, that this thinking is what keeps me vulnerable economically and not in charge of my life.

Anyone else got thoughts on self esteem - how do you improve it for example? How do you get more of it and use it effectively without become an arrogant asshole who blames everyone else for your own issues, etc?
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Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 18:45:08 (EST)
From: Iola
Email: None
To: Judex
Subject: Mysticism & Self Esteem
Message:
Well, Judex, why not lie to yourself? It worked for other things. Why shouldn't you be the one with the Swiss bank account, great job, whatever your heart desires. Start programming. Repeat these things and they will come true.
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Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 19:58:21 (EST)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: Judex
Subject: Mysticism & Self Esteem
Message:
Judex,
What can I say?
It's amazing! For me 'life' is the issue.
And there are many approaches .
If people really want to think that the more mystical levels of human experience can be dumped into the bin for 'those other newagey types' and have a mystical-free forum then I can only shake my head , sigh and move on to fresher fields.
The topic of Maharaji is most certainly about everyones personal experiences spanning a broad range of issues.
Is discussing self-esteem only to be discussed in relation to Maharaji?
And how is it that any number of off-topics---I mean topics that have not had anything to do with Maharaji, as such--- get shared on this forum, and yet when spiritual or mystical themes get shared their is a strong negative reaction?
I feel this forum is altogether overly dominated by sceptical types and as such that has nothing to do with Maharaji one way or another.
I feel that those who have the stronger personalities , like Jim and JW , who are more sure of their beliefs can too easily intimidate others who are not so sure.
So many people only disagree with Jim with an added apology.
As if they are needing to appease him...or protect him.
As if they know that he has a very fragile ego...and yet they still let him over-dominate...and he is not the only one ....he just makes such a good example.
I SUPPORT A FREE FORUM WHERE PEOPLE CAN SHARE WHATEVER THEY FEEL TO AS LONG AS THERE ARE OTHERS WHO ARE INTERESTED IN WHAT IS BEING SHARED.
And minority interests should not be discouraged.
And Maharaji can be linked into these wider considerations.
Some of my thoughts, Judex.
Keith
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Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 20:14:20 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: Keith
Subject: Mysticism & Self Esteem
Message:
Dear Keith,
I'd love to let you know that 2 new comers here tonight have come into 'mystic' threads and a 3rd lurker just emailed me and thanked me for my posts over the last 3 days which had mostly to do with this stuff also, and Anon who thought we shouldn't post actually listened and heard what I wrote to him in response to that post and changed his mind. It isn't so bad, and all of this has caused Gerry to start a site for us to discuss this stuff on also, see post below! Hope you will join in there too!
I do care for Jim because I have seen his sensitive side and I just LOVE JW. I don't even see him as being against this stuff, at least I haven't seen any posts to that effect but then I've missed a lot of posts lately. I don't care if everyone believes in these things I just want to be let to share them here and of course on the new magical mystery tour site as well!
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 20:21:33 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: Come home, Patriot Son
Message:
I SUPPORT A FREE FORUM WHERE PEOPLE CAN SHARE WHATEVER THEY FEEL TO AS LONG AS THERE ARE OTHERS WHO ARE INTERESTED IN WHAT IS BEING SHARED.

Keith, I would really like it you would also post on the new list sometime. Mirabai, too.

Click here to subscribe to magicalmysterytour
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Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 20:24:30 (EST)
From: Bovine products man
Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com
To: Judex
Subject: Mysticism & Self Esteem
Message:
Self esteem eh? Say what the fuck you like and to hell with anyone who disagrees or critisises you. It's their problem, not yours.
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Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 20:33:44 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: Bovine products man
Subject: Mysticism & Self Esteem
Message:
Dear Chedd,
What a doll baby you are!
Robyn
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Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 21:06:18 (EST)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: Robyn, Gerry and David
Subject: Mysticism & Self Esteem
Message:
Firstly Gerry,
I personally feel to not be fobbed off onto some other site or e-mail list. What a convienient way to get rid of the trouble-makers!
It is demeaning! Like sending naughty children to a place away from the sensible adults....a place where they can play without bothering the status quo.
Robyn, it's good that there are positive responses to these mystical posts, but I would urge those people to face their fears and post onto this forum too.
Yes David....we should all say whatever fucking thing we feel to and not allow those scared fuckers dictate to us.
(Hows that Robyn ...for curse therapy?)
Keith
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Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 21:34:07 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: Keith's false courage
Message:
Yes David....we should all say whatever fucking thing we feel to and not allow those scared fuckers dictate to us.

It's not saying whatever you want, Keith. It's saying whatever you want and being willing to rationally discuss it. It's being willing to accept the rational consequences of the discussion and not jamming out.
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Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 21:57:35 (EST)
From: Cottage cheese
Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com
To: You
Subject: Mysticism & Self Esteem
Message:
Let's face it, not everyone is going to agree with or like everything we as individuals might say/write. Better to say it as you see it rather than try to please everyone. Some of my posts here where I've talked about God and my deeper understanding of Him/Her/It through studying people's near death expereinces; well for sure there's been plenty here who haven't agreed with me but it's valid as such studies helped me to overcome the big hole which appeared when the truth about M dawned on me.

Not that I dwell on those studies too much but they did help me over some rough patches when I felt bereft of any understanding. However, I wouldn't call myself a mystic. So what if some people don't like my posts. There's some posts I find crashingly boring and don't read more than a paragraph of them but some people here enjoy those posts. We're all different. There's no party line to follow here. I like to keep an open mind about unusual claims or events. Like your astral travelling to London, Keith. I am sceptical but interested to see if such a thing could really be true.

I think that complaining about what people write here simply produces the opposite reaction to what the complaint is intended to do. The people on the forum divide into opposing camps and the whole thing can become a farce. Live and let live, I say. Some here are athiests, some are believers in God and some are experiencers of unusual 'paranormal' phenomena. This is pretty typical of any cross section of society.
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Date: Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 04:40:26 (EST)
From: Mirabai
Email: None
To: Cottage cheese
Subject: Mysticism & Self Esteem
Message:
Dear David, I really enjoyed the following post, I couldn't decide which to copy and which to ignore so I decided to do the lot!I've read so many posts lately that have been really worhwhile,too many to mention.

Mirabai

Let's face it, not everyone is going to agree with or like everything we as individuals might say/write. Better to say it as you see it rather than try to please everyone. Some of my posts here where I've talked about God and my deeper understanding of Him/Her/It through studying people's near death expereinces; well for sure there's been plenty here who haven't agreed with me but it's valid as such studies helped me to overcome the big hole which appeared when the truth about M dawned on me.

Not that I dwell on those studies too much but they did help me over some rough patches when I felt bereft of any understanding. However, I wouldn't call myself a mystic. So what if some people don't like my posts. There's some posts I find crashingly boring and don't read more than a paragraph of them but some people here enjoy those posts. We're all different. There's no party line to follow here. I like to keep an open mind about unusual claims or events. Like your astral travelling to London, Keith. I am sceptical but interested to see if such a thing could really be true.

I think that complaining about what people write here simply produces the opposite reaction to what the complaint is intended to do. The people on the forum divide into opposing camps and the whole thing can become a farce. Live and let live, I say. Some here are athiests, some are believers in God and some are experiencers of unusual 'paranormal' phenomena. This is pretty typical of any cross section of society.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 09:44:28 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: Keith
Subject: Mysticism & Self Esteem
Message:
Dear Keith,
It's becoming epidemic, crap! :)
Robyn
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Date: Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 03:57:37 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: the milk man
Subject: I'm impressed
Message:
Say what the fuck you like and to hell with anyone who disagrees or critisises you. It's their problem, not yours.

So that's what they mean by 'attitude'? Yeah, right!!!!!
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Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 21:41:59 (EST)
From: charles
Email: None
To: Judex
Subject: Mysticism & Self Esteem
Message:
I think the whole issue of 'self-esteem', though up to this time very muddily defined, is one of the more glaring examples of pop psychology. Read: stupid, shallow, impertinent, banal, and altogether beside the point. The issue is to look for and follow or practice what you and you alone think is worthwhile. I, for one, think very little of the social ladder at whatever level. I am altogether certain that it matters not how many toys you have when the time comes to leave them all behind. If that is mystical or if that is the most comforting definition someone who is deep into that grasping trip likes to give it then so be it. I don't have time to bother with them. I think that kind of shortsightedness is stupid. And I don't think it has anything at all to do with whether or not you believe you are going to continue to somehow exist after what we call death. I do not believe that in the manner I think most do believe it. I say there is no death. I say there is more of the same old bullshit and it behooves one to cut through it and the sooner the better. If the circumstances of life such as job or mate or health or domicile or the lack thereof are disturbing and they surely are at one time or another then notice that. I say that how I am feeling or acting or thinking is what is most important and if I am disturbed or confused or ignorant I do my best to correct that. And I never look to the purveyors of notions like 'self esteem' for that. I further say that what I am (even that word 'i' is very tricky) is not high or low or good or bad or effective or incompetent or satisfied or dissatisfied, etc. All that stuff is just noise. Well, I didn't answer anything did I. But at the risk of being too boring I will quote at length:
I would be correct then to state the maximum claim for the idea of the holographic universe, namely that in some deep level of being, the whole is enfolded within each part. And that includes not only object and object, which is the domain of physics at the moment; it also includes subject and object, which is the domain of peychology and philosophy of science; it is the knower facing the known; it includes most praticularly subject and object. And that is what happens to interest (the physicist) David Bohm increasingly, namely the transcendence of an isolated, distorted, and hence falsified notion of ourselves as separate from one another, to a domain--one energetic domain--which he calls the consciousness of mankind, which has its roots in the inward layers of the implicate order, and anchored in matter so fine that it can only function as a unitive and not as a fragmented kind of entity. The Buddha put it more simply:
Verily, I declare unto you that within this very body, mortal though it be and only a fathom high, but conscious and endowed with mind, is the world and the waxing thereof and waning thereof, and the way that leads to the passing away thereof.' Renee Weber
'The Holographic Model and Esoteric Traditions' The Quest Winter 1988. And Karl Pribram: 'How is it possible that mystics 3,000 years ago have plagiarized what we scientists are doing today?' Weber adds that he was really perturbed about this. Weber is professor of philosophy at Rutgers University.
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Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 22:59:47 (EST)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: charles
Subject: Mysticism & Self Esteem
Message:
Charles,
I'd just like to say that I really enjoy Prof David Bohm's perspectives and I enjoyed this post of yours too.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 00:03:30 (EST)
From: charles
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: Mysticism & Self Esteem
Message:
Thank you, Keith. The quote comes from a book entitled: 'THE BUDDHA, His Life Retold. I am not much interested in this as a way of having mystical experiences but more as a way of reaching understanding that is clear and irrefutable. I guess that would be rather mystical considering the usual babble that passes for understanding or knowledge. I would call it 'whistling in the dark'.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 00:22:28 (EST)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: charles
Subject: Mysticism & Self Esteem
Message:
You said, 'I am not much interested in this as a way of having mystical experiences but more as a way of reaching understanding that is clear and irrefutable. I guess that would be rather mystical considering the usual babble that passes for understanding or knowledge.'
Charles....exactly....thanks, I love that...'reaching understanding that is clear and irrefutable' ....not all the other babble ....which becomes more like toil and trouble!
Keep it coming!
Keith
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Date: Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 04:05:34 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: charles
Subject: Mysticism & Self Esteem
Message:
Good to hear your thoughts Charles. You make me think (he made me do it!) I like what you say. I am listening....
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Date: Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 00:53:59 (EST)
From: *<*....b
Email: None
To: Judex
Subject: pardo speaks
Message:
Hi Judex, I haven't read others response to your post yet
so I don't know if I am repeating.

I am not saying I know this topic but since you opened it up,
I'll wing it.

Blameing others for some of our issues if certainly fair.
You can take an innocent child and fuck him up big time.
There is a natural vulnerability with youth that is just there
and it wasn't your doing. Others did what they did and thier part
IS thier part. No need to absolve them. Guilty as charged!

Recovery and fresh starts perhaps are as varied as we are,
But some similarities come to mind.
How you view life and others is core.
I personally am doing this:
Recently I took a few things and mushed em together,
Bobby's cancer provided a 'live like it is your last day'
edge,
and realizeing that practices and religious behaviours
aren't IT, pushed me to try and adopt an approach where
I make a real attempt to make each encounter with another
person rich, by that I mean I try to have a little humor,
or take the chance to talk to them about thier interests,
throw a wide angle lens on whatever topic we are talking
about, kind of try to make thier day. I started this
with the youngest kid and worked my way up to everyone.
I got to admit I try to feel my breath because it just does
something good. It brings a feeling and an ease. I guess
THAT is the mysticism angle. But I also think the concious power
rates a little time also so I will yap at it. (mostly
smarty-pants type comments). Sort of like that guy from
that movie-the 'if I was a rich man' movie.

I try and spend some time each week with old people who
didn't go sour over the years but got better. Beat up, but
better. There is something to that. I have to ask them
questions that are not strolls down memory lane because
a lot of thier lives are strewn with rough moments and I
am not trying to fish at the bottom of the lake.
They will uncork some old stuff on thier own if I will
just continue to talk to them and not fade in interest like
most folks do to them.
Tonight I helped a ladie with a cross word puzzle for a
while and got a 14 yr old kid involved and made it funny and
all three of us managed to have a hoot basically because
I tried to make the moment rich.

prem rawat and spiritual types want to distract me from shareing
love with others and instead of dissolving in fun with others,
they want me to endlessly pursue an unattainable dissolveing
into some unconcious god thingee that will leave me in some
'I AM GOD' state that has done DOC absolutely NO GOOD!

The great mystics, if they could speak from the grave,
well, let ME channel for them!

I am Zardo, great mystic of my age, now I hover and dispense
advice to those who will listen. Hear me oh chela! student of
the orb-----Get down off your throne and leave your body alone.
Somebody must change! You are the one who has been waiting
all these years! Somebody aimed you when you were very young.
Nobody ever fired. If you want to get up and get it all.
Wake up and love your life and everyone in it and embrace it
wholeheartedly for it is the greatest gift! Have fun and
feel your life and accept and rejoice in your individuality
and befriend the bigger power and know it loves a good sport
and a good show and it will try to play a part in your great fun!

Thank you dardo!
Bet you wish you had MY body and situation!
And I have TIME and ENERGY!
I got it all.
Forget the pursuit of the dis-embodied state!
It is comeing soon enough!

Enjoy the gift of individuality!
It is not a stupid penalty to be overcome!
Ignore the blabber of fools that distain the richness
of life and love and waste time trying to be god!

Or zealots of ANY stripe.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 04:16:54 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: *<*....b
Subject: pardo speaks
Message:
dear *<*....b
you moved me. First, about the fuck-ups - yes, that feels true (not afraid to admit I got teary)

Everything seems so important in the face of....a little girl's recent death, a girl who loved life - my daughter read her a poem at her funeral today. She gave her roses, yellow with pink edges.

I agree with everyone you say. BTW, I wrote a play when I was about 20, and for the opening used that song 'Come down from your throne, and leave your body alone, somebody holds the key, you are the reason I've been waiting so long, somebody holds the key. And I'm near the end and I just aint got the time. And I'm wasted and I can't find my way home.' the play was called 'the loving cup' and was very obscure.

But your post is crystal clear, thank you so much.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 10:23:27 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: *<*....b
Subject: pardo speaks
Message:
Dear bb,
Thanks, that was a wonderful post. This quote really hit me though!

Bobby's cancer provided a 'live like it is your last day' edge,
and realizeing that practices and religious behaviours aren't IT, pushed me to try and adopt an approach where I make a real attempt to make each encounter with another person rich, by that I mean I try to have a little humor, or take the chance to talk to them about thier interests, throw a wide angle lens on whatever topic we are talking about, kind of try to make thier day. I started this with the youngest kid and worked my way up to everyone.


Gets at the core of excellence in all of us, doesn't it!
Robyn
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Date: Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 03:11:19 (EST)
From: carol
Email: None
To: Judex
Subject: Mysticism & Self Esteem
Message:
Judex,
I also have had problems with self-esteem....do now in fact. I feel rejected if someone doesn't comment on a post I make, for example. I feel like it doesn't matter what I say, so why bother.
This is also what seemed to happen with some of my old premie friends, so maybe that's why I feel sensitive about it here. I seemed to be the one who made any effort to keep in touch with people who I really cared about and believed they cared about me. And of course in relation to Maharaji, I felt some insecurity and rejection because I was not able to be close to him physically like some other people were. Did I not deserve too?

There is sort of a vulnerability I feel when I'm making connections and sharing my most inner thoughts and feelings in this cyerspace realm that is very impersonal in that I don't know who might be reading it, and most of you are complete strangers, though we share some similar experiences. I am feeling right now that I need to withdraw some from putting myself out here.

I deal with low self-esteem partly just by recognizing what it is I'm feeling and perhaps trying to understand why, and then I let it go as much as I can and focus on more positive thinking or activities. I am lucky to have at this time children who express their love and appreciation for me. I also feel more worthwhile doing my volunteer hospice work. I started with a new family today, and I know I'm going to love the patient and serve her family and I know that I will be acknowledged for my giving and for being myself. If I focus more on what I can do for others, than what others can do for me, then I feel just fine and it also increases my self-esteem.

There are people who may never know what were talking about when we refer to low self-esteem because they have not either experienced it or identified it in themselves. I believe that some people who seem to be the most egotistical or pompous, actually have unrecognized esteem issues. And some are so full of themselves they have no room to 'esteem' anyone else!
carol
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Date: Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 04:21:16 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: carol
Subject: To Carol
Message:
Thank you for sharing your thoughts on this subject. I always enjoy reading what you have to say when you post, to me you are a valued and unique member of this group, and have a lot to contribute. I hope you are getting a lot back too! Go, Carol!
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Date: Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 21:30:07 (EST)
From: David of Cheddar
Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com
To: Carol
Subject: To Carol
Message:
That was avery good and thoughtful post. Maharaji's world did plenty to damage self esteem. We were always being told that what we thought was wrong. In fact, we were always being told that WE were just wrong, completely out of it. Years of this did much harm to people's self esteem.

One of the main pointers we can have is how much we are appreciated by other people. This is no small thing as it was made to be in M's world. How we affect other people is extremely important to most of us. Better to be of some use to people than to just live for oneself, I believe. My children have taught me a lot. And so have other people's, I might add. They speak the language of sincere feeling. They don't judge by appearences or how clever you are. They respond to how you feel about them. And what you can get back is unconditional love from them. One could say that interaction with children is of the sincerest kind. I know my children love me even when I am hating myself. If God is anywhere, I definitely see Him there.
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Date: Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 03:29:03 (EST)
From: carol
Email: None
To: David of Cheddar
Subject: To Carol
Message:
'They don't judge by appearences or how clever you are. They respond to how you feel about them. And what you can get back is unconditional love from them. One could say that interaction with children is of the sincerest kind.'

Dear David,
That was a god point (that was a typo that looked right, so I left it!) I hope you don't hate yourself often. Strong disappointment in your behavior or thinking habits can be a strong motivation to make changes, but I think hate is destructive. If you feel hate, go find a child to show you how loveable you are.
Love,carol
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Date: Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 10:16:31 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: carol
Subject: To Carol
Message:
Dear Carol,
I was just thinking of how you felt strong enough to extend yourself to me just last weekend and now you are feeling low. I know you are on a delicte balance and had gotten off track with that. I hope you will be back to feeling good, strong, and healthy soon.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 05:12:18 (EST)
From: Mirabai
Email: None
To: David of Cheddar
Subject: To David
Message:
Hi David,here we go again, I really enjoyed this post as well! I can really relate to the innocence of children or the child within.
Sincerely Mirabai

One of the main pointers we can have is how much we are appreciated by other people. This is no small thing as it was made to be in M's world. How we affect other people is extremely important to most of us. Better to be of some use to people than to just live for oneself, I believe. My children have taught me a lot. And so have other people's, I might add. They speak the language of sincere feeling. They don't judge by appearences or how clever you are. They respond to how you feel about them. And what you can get back is unconditional love from them. One could say that interaction with children is of the sincerest kind. I know my children love me even when I am hating myself. If God is anywhere, I definitely see Him there.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 10:30:57 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: carol and Jude
Subject: Self esteem and self respect
Message:
Hi Carol and Jude -
The lack of 'self-esteem' (I prefer to call it 'self-respect') has always been such an problem for me that I almost forget I have it, if you know what I mean. I could very much relate to both your posts. I just have a few comments.

First Jude asked - how to get self-esteem without being one of those people who blames everyone for everything? I have found that the best way for me to do this is to take responsibility for my own life, including the bad things I have done. This is a really hard process and there are a lot of people who are willing to let you off the hook, and tell you things like you only did 'x' because you were so 'Y', if you know what I mean. But basically, if you did 'x' and 'x' hurt someone else, you need to accept that you did it, feel bad about it, and forgive yourself for it. (I hope this is making sense - if not, let me know.)

Then Carol spoke about people not answering her posts. Carol, I also feel bad when people don't answer my posts. I know it's a little irrational, but it makes me feel that what I said was stupid or boring. One thing that helps (and you may do this already) is to have something in the post to respond to - a question, a request to share similar experiences, etc. Anyway, I really do like your posts, and have definitely appreciated you sharing so much about yourself on here. That takes a lot of courage.

Fond regards to you both
Katie
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Date: Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 10:38:08 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: carol
Subject: Mysticism & Self Esteem
Message:
Dear Carol,
I think that low self esteem is real but as you said maybe some of those who haven't experienced it or don't recognise it don't think it exists, like all this mysitc discussion. I use to have very low self esteem and yet also felt very connected to a strong, bright core of excellence inside me. I felt that since I was in junior high school but once I had some powerful experiences with the word I saw that they occupied the same space inside me. I use to invision eventually making that core larger until it filled me up. I have received much strength from that over the years. I have pushed and helped myself, going back to school, graduating with honors and learning respect acceptance for and love of myself. I still have lots of time spent in low esteem but more to the point now where I see it as temporary, something to get to the bottom of and work through.
You are such a giving person, Carol, the hospic, your mom, your children, I just hope you give, also to yourself! I know it is hard but a worthwhile pursuit non the less.
As far as feeling bad if you aren't responded to here. I had felt that from time to time when I was first here but there are a lot of posts and not as much time sometimes I can get into responding to everything but often I have to deny my desire to respond to posts. I read yours and many others words and they mean a lot to me even if I don't always tell you.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 12:11:02 (EST)
From: charles
Email: None
To: carol
Subject: Mysticism & Self Esteem
Message:
Dear Carol:
Notwithstanding my rambling above and the expressed disdain for concepts like 'self-esteem' I know very well what it is like to be dissed and simultaneously unable to do anything to recover from it by dishing out in kind to the disrespectful one. I believe in counter control as a standard of relationship. Because of the many times I have been left out and they far outnumber the times I have been included I tend to be a bit sad, but I will not settle for the attitude that my critics and detractors have it all over me. If I am there for awhile and it disables me to own the hatred and disdain of others I look forward to the day when I can exact my revenge. Of course I find myself often enough in an embarassing position when I lash out, but I at least am willing to confess my wrongdoing and learn from it. I think a lot of the little tearer downers and aloof critics do not have the courage to do this. They are so attached to their status that they cannot even see clearly anymore. I like hearing from you. I like your involvement in life as it happens here on the ground without all of the pretentious posing. Maybe people read what you say and agree and think to themselves that there is nothing they can really add, that you said it.
Charles
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Date: Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 13:49:59 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: charles
Subject: Carol
Message:
Dear Carol and Charles,
Maybe people read what you say and agree and think to themselves that there is nothing they can really add, that you said it.

Exactly what I was trying to say but you said it so much better, Charles!
Robyn
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Date: Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 02:40:13 (EST)
From: charles
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Robyn
Message:
Thanks love. That was definitely good for my self esteem.
Charles
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Date: Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 08:34:43 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: charles
Subject: to Charles
Message:
Charles, want to say I noticed your absence - glad you are back - you made me sit up and take notice recently when you 'put me in my place' about thinking I had fantastic spiritual experiences. I really like it when people acknowledge their own power, if that is not too New Age.
I see you have learned and studied a lot - and you are interesting in what you share.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 14:23:38 (EST)
From: carol
Email: None
To: Judex,Katie,Robyn,Charles
Subject: Mysticism & Self Esteem
Message:
Thankyou all for your responses. It was very cathartic to read them just now, you know, tears again and release. I have been feeling more depressed than usual lately. I keep hoping that the right medicine will do it for me, and it does for months sometimes. I got out of my exercise routine when my mother needed extra help, and that may be the reason. I was feeling better when I exercised regularly. I only have a few minutes now, but I wanted to respond. Today I'm going to take my mother to see The Truman Show with Jim Carey. My 4th grader's last day at school is today.

I hope you all realize that your messages convey your wisdom and caring. We are meant to help eachother I think. Love,carol
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Date: Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 16:12:33 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: carol
Subject: Mysticism & Self Esteem
Message:
Jim Carey should help. At least for a while.
I lived most of my life with **No*** self-esteem. Forget low. Nada.
A child whose first conscious moments and all thereafter were brutal. Sometime in my 30's I got real angry. And, I let it happen. I don't advocate this for everyone. the time and place was right, I was dating this punk grunge type musician so I could act out my angry girl fantasies, etc...
Now I seek balance. The previous posts were right about me at least. Most of the time I don't respond because you said it and all I would have to say is something dumb like 'yes I agree'.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 23:02:29 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: Selena
Subject: Mysticism & Self Esteem
Message:
Dear Selena,
Your post really touched me. I just had to tell you. I have a dear friend, abandoned at birth, found left for dead in a crib in an empty apartment. In rural PA then, I guess, they didn't worry about laws and this old alcoholic couple took him in. All their kids were grown and gone. The abuse and neglect abounded. While still in grade school, he'd go off into the woods for days and not go to school, no one seemed to notice. He had lots of shit to work through and our meeting was preceeded by him sitting on his bed and feeling desperate, and being overtaken, thrown back by a feeling of peace that it would be OK. We met the next day. He has done so much work I'd be writing for hours. He did a lot of asking for help also. He has changed into a different person and is calm and feels love and at peace. It is far from easy but change can occur and you can heal. I wish this for all of us.
Robyn
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Date: Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 23:27:25 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Mysticism & Self Esteem
Message:
Thank you Robyn.
I had felt vulnerable posting that last msg. and a little
stupid. I mean, who wants to hear it right? I had decided to check in one more time after an - amazingly - productive night
at work. this makes it even better!!!! I can't tell you how much it means. Really. Thank you.
Your friend had it even tougher. Poor thing. Thank -fill-it-in
that he met you.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 23:37:56 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: ps to Carol
Subject: Mysticism & Self Esteem
Message:
I just reread my post. Electronic comms are misleading. I didn't mean I don't respond because *YOU* said it, I meant I don't respond because you say it so well and I don't know what to add!

Just wanted to clarify. Hope you enjoyed the movie. I like Jim Carey a lot. How was it? (but make sure you relate it to BM so we don't get in trouble :):) )
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Date: Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 03:13:52 (EST)
From: carol
Email: None
To: Selena
Subject: the Truman Show
Message:
I liked the movie alot. But my mother didn't much and said she fell asleep in part. It is for people who like to think about things like: reality vs. illusion, and trust and innocence vs. betrayal and manipulation. I think ex-premies can relate to those things! I also think Jim Carey has a mad genius in comedy and humanity! Sometimes I worry about his survival in this society. He seemed strong in this part.
carol
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Date: Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 21:33:57 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: carol
Subject: the Truman Show
Message:
Truman Show sounds great Carol. I agree, how does he survive?
He is a genious. I guess he found his medium and was able somehow
to succeed in it. The Cable Guy, though dark and upsetting as far as comedies go, was eerily accurate about our TV society.
Looking forward to seeing Truman.

RE: anger and the letting out thereof.
I got lucky and was able to play punk for a while. We would go to the clubs and slam dance and act out and believe it or not, it was healing for me. but, you have to understand how very fucked up I was for something like that to be healing.
I think what you have done in your journey is just as valid. If you really think you still need to act on anger, don't worry you will! That's how anger is. It's like a zit at 'moon time' It will just come out whether you are doing a photo shot or whatever!

Love,
Selena
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Date: Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 23:14:04 (EST)
From: carol
Email: None
To: Selena
Subject: the Truman Show
Message:
Selena, You're funny!! Carol
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Date: Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 03:06:02 (EST)
From: carol
Email: None
To: Selena
Subject: Mysticism & Self Esteem
Message:
Dear Selena,
Glad you came through to the other side of all that anger. I guess anger can be cathertic to some like tears are to me. I also sometimes don't respond to posts because all I might say is 'Well said' or 'I agree' or maybe I don't feel like arguing or butting in if I don't agree. Sometimes I'm just sensitive. You know how counselors often recommend journal writing or writing letters to people and not sending them for its theraputic value? Well posting here is sort of like that, but with added risks and benefits from the feedback or lack of it!
carol
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Date: Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 15:20:47 (EST)
From: eb
Email: None
To: carol
Subject: Carol--Unanswered posts
Message:
Hi Carol,

I have wanted to respond many times to your posts (and most everyone else's, for that matter). So often I just want to say 'thanks' or 'I understand completely' or 'I couldn't have said it better myself.' I don't because I'm afraid I'll take up space on the forum. (Notice the self esteem issue surface).

I truly appreciate everyone who posts here because I have gained so much from hearing your stories. It used to bother me when my posts weren't answered, but now it surprises me when they are. Sometimes I feel that I'm off in a corner at a party dancing alone (and having a great time).

eb
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Date: Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 03:20:45 (EST)
From: carol
Email: None
To: eb
Subject: Carol--Unanswered posts
Message:
Thanks eb,
After going to the movie I picked up my son from school and then planted about 10 pots with flowering plants. I am feeling better and will read and post here when I have time (which is usually late at night!) I always feel better when I do something physical or creative or helpful to others. I like the reference to dancing alone and enjoying yourself...that's something I actually like to do that I haven't given the gift of time to lately!
carol
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Date: Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 10:22:16 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: carol
Subject: Carol--Unanswered posts
Message:
Dear Carol, and eb,
I also love to dance alone, in a group, with one other. It is the dancing that is the key for me. One night months ago I was listening to the radio on my hour drive home from job 2. The music was all good and very danceable. When I got home I put the radio on and danced on the polished wood foors in the downstairs until 1:30am! I loved it but was sorry the next morning!
Roobyn
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Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 14:15:29 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: The Christian Cult
Message:
From the front page of the San Francisco Chronicle, it's reported that the Southern Baptist Convention has adopted a new statement on the family which states that wives must live in submission to their husbands and that 'a wife's submission to her husband does not decrease her worth but rather enhances her value to her husband and the Lord.' [Yes, I'm sure it does. By the way, the statement was written by two women.]

The statement also contains a strong condemnation of gay rights. It says that 'believers must resist any claims of legitimacy for sexual relationships that biblically have been declared illicit or perverse,' partly because 'the perversion of homosexuality defiles even childbirth.' [This would be news to all the lesbians I know who are having kids right and left.]

The article also said that a Southern Baptist church in Texas had decided to hire a female minister, the first in Texas history. This is being protested by 'God Said Ministries,' which is described by the article as 'an ultra-fundamentalist cult,A' and whic said that the decision was responsible, 'along with the feminists, as the main cause of child abuse, abortion, teen pregnancies, drug and alcohol abuse, pornography, teen crime, gang violence, racial tensions, and the ever-increasing coming out of the closet of the sodomites and lesbians.' [I think they forgot global warming.]
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Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 14:34:18 (EST)
From: Dairy produce man
Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com
To: JW
Subject: The Christian Cult
Message:
I just saw that on our British news. Something like 26 million people belong to this church including Bill Clinton and Al Gore. Wishfull thinking amongst men the newsreader said. I mean, can you imagine Mrs Clinton being like that.
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Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 14:47:46 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Dairy produce man
Subject: The Christian Cult
Message:
The Southern Baptists, despite their historical biblical defense of racism and slavery, used to be run by a more moderate crowd and allowed individual churches to make their own decisions on ministry and other issues. But in the 1980s a fundamentalist group launched a successful takeover of Southern Baptist seminaries and other church agencies. Since then, the denomination has become increasingly conservative and fundamentalist. A couple of years ago, three Baptist churches in the San Francisco area were kicked out of the Southern Baptist convention for allowing gay and lesbian members and even performing commitment ceremonies for gay and lesbian couples.
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Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 22:46:37 (EST)
From: *<*...b
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: The 700 Cult
Message:
JW, when we were in Miami there was a southern baptist
national convention at the convention center.
It was free and close by so I went. twice.
It was far less attended than millenium. There was about1,500
attending at the very most. The speeches were all preachers
who had big hopes that they were going to be addressing a
very large crowd for the first time. The southern style of
shouting preaching was wierd and also echoed in the empty hall.

If a group took over the national org. , they are just a
sort of a front and perhaps don't have more influence on thier
supposed group of followers than Oprah and TV.

The weight of the society has already shifted to a more
open status and the religious zealots will never be among them.

The zealots will never be able to leave judgemental and
narrow interpretations of whatever is in the bible.
The message of love everyone and also the power, is the last
bit of scripture to get mulled over by the religious
scripture enthusiasts I know.

rawat could never embrace that one either, because the
unequal relationship he has with virtually all the other
humans keeps him from enjoying the best attitudes
that are available.
He is punished by his own chooseing to be seperated from
all the rest of us because he has put himself on a pedestal
and it removes him from the best ways to live.

Did you hear what that other tv evangelist had to say about
disney and meteors and hurricanes? It was some comments
about gay influence and divine repercussions. The 700 club guy.
All the religious guys that start to speak for god go insane.
No matter what religion.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 11:51:33 (EST)
From: bftb
Email: None
To: *<*...b
Subject: The 700 Cult
Message:
Yeah BB;That 'other' tv evangelist is Pat Robertson who a few years back gained a significant percentage of support from the far right element of the republican party.

Imagine that man being President!That smug pompous grin he often sports could become even more omnipresent.Yikes.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 15:48:58 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: bftb
Subject: The 700 Cult
Message:
yes, I saw that on the news last night - Pat Robinson resurfacing, ugh!! And he did say something to the effect that weird weather and collisions with meteorites could be blamed on gays (??????)

It truly is scary and don't take it lightly, that dude did run for president once.
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Date: Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 05:56:23 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: Selena
Subject: Seinfeld for God
Message:
Bit of an axaggeration....but watching Seinfeld tonight I thought, now that is a saint.

That man and his show has probably done more for 'friendship' than anyone in this 'alienated' society - in fact watching him is like posting on the Forum - but they say the stuff to each other in person.

Also, he is humble, it seems, just continually awake to the amusement that life can offer - and accepting of others in every detail. I like that show and there's more to it than meets the eye.
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Date: Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 12:23:16 (EST)
From: John
Email: None
To: Judex
Subject: Seinfeld for God???
Message:
'Also, he is humble, it seems, just continually awake to the amusement that life can offer - and accepting of others in every detail. I like that show and there's more to it than meets the eye.'

Wow, I'm shocked. I think the show is funny sometimes, but it's humor is based on how these so called 'friends' are complete ass holes to most people.

What about the grand finale a few weeks ago in which they stood and laughed at a fat person? Was that accepting of others in every detail?

Or am I missing something?
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Date: Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 13:32:58 (EST)
From: bftb
Email: None
To: John
Subject: Seinfeld for God???
Message:
I shouldn't speak for anyone but I think she meant that they are close friends who accept each other in spite of each others neurosis.Not that they accept 'all outsiders'. I think?

You're right about what you say and I think that last episode was a way for Larry David(seinfeld co-creator and an original writer who came back to write that final episode) to relieve any guilt he may have had.It seems like he himself didn't think his characters had the most admirable moral code either.
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Date: Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 16:56:42 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: bftb
Subject: Seinfeld for God???
Message:
Well, right. The Seinfeld characters are not vicious or mean, they are just totally self-centered and obsessed with their own, usually meaningless, problems. What made them objectionable was not that their morals were BAD, just that they didn't have ANY moral code whatsoever.
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Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 14:52:09 (EST)
From: bftb
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: The Christian Cult
Message:
Sometimes I fear we're headed towards(some would say we're already in)a new dark ages of sorts.This kind of thinking scares the shit out of me.These sorts of people seem to be gaining influential political strength everywhere on the globe,what with Islamic fundamentalism growing worldwide,Jewish fundamentalism in Israel threatening a potential/eventual civil catastrophe there,Hindu nationalism growing in India,and here in America we've got these 'operation rescue' types gaining more and more political clout.Scary creepy stuff.

The devil himself must have thought up religious fundamentalism.
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Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 18:53:33 (EST)
From: eb
Email: None
To: bftb
Subject: The Christian Cult
Message:
Dear bftb,
You wrote:
Sometimes I fear we're headed towards(some would say we're already in)a new dark ages of sorts.

Did I miss something? I thought we were in for a thousand years of peace starting with the dawning of the age of Aquarius. Or how about that Harmonic Convergence in the late 80's. What was that all about? I remember standing on a mountain om-ing as the sun came up.

But seriously, I agree it's scary.

If the devil didn't think this stuff up, then god is a real wierdo. (no offense, god, but what the hell is going on here?)

eb
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Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 19:13:55 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: eb
Subject: The Christian Cult
Message:
Dear eb,
Nice to see you here. I have been about out of my mind lately sorry not to have been in contact. Group mail sounds like salvation to me!
Robyn
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Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 19:25:41 (EST)
From: eb
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Hi Robyn
Message:
Good afternoon, Robyn.

I, too, have been out of my mind lately. Busy, Busy, Busy. Trying to catch up on reading the forum is simply impossible! I signed onto Gerry's listserve. I'm thinking I could use a little less logic and a little more mysticism in my life. (Below I described my day and Selena provided me an opportunity to rant which I truly needed and appreciate. I feel much better now).

LOTU video will be in the mail tomorrow, I promise.

With love,
eb
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Date: Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 04:48:38 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: eb
Subject: not fundamental
Message:
One article I read abut someone's vision of the new age, forget who but it stuck in my mind - was that it would be about lots of groups of people each with their own interests - heaps of variety, lots of different little 'sects'/tribes ('cults'?). They said it could go either way - either they start warring - I am right you are wrong - or they all tolerate each other (with magnificent indifference?)

Where I live a respected television personality, ex racing car driver and motoring critic, happily married, recently told the story in a national 'family' magazine of how he cross-dresses at home (his wife shared in the interview also). It's something he does because of his brutal fathering. He is still on tele test driving motor cars, hasn't lost any credibility I can see. Brave people like that (and his wife) give the critics of this world no secrets to despise. I think there should be no secrets. The more people communicate and are able to explain themselves, their perspective, their life, the less you want to kill them because they are your enemy. To me that is enlightenment, live and let live. That is humanity.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 15:54:16 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: Judex
Subject: not fundamental
Message:
Judex, your posts reminds me of this idea we had:
Clinton should go on TV and announce that he is
'Powerless over sex and his life had become unmanageable'

ie, the First Step
then check into Betty Ford. The media would be left at a loss for any dirt to dig up, since his checkered past was happening when he was in his addiction phase and he Did The Right Thing - he sought help. Instant absolution!! Even corporations forgive their employees if they seek treatment!!
Interesting society we live in.
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Date: Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 06:07:28 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: Selena
Subject: to Selena
Message:
Instant absolution!! Even corporations forgive their employees if they seek treatment!!
Interesting society we live in.


Yes but consider this. when my dope addiction (and I admit there was cocaine involved at this stage I am talking about) escalated out of my control I left my government television job. I was a permanent (ie for life) employee. I was on a good salary. Yet I was so ashamed of myself I just quietly resigned. One of the last social events I attended, a xmas party, I had to keep going outside and smoking joints just to be able to stay in the room and talk to the nice people. It was hideous.

However my friend stayed, and eventually they found out (she was using heroin) and she admitted she had a problem and went to rehab. She is still employed there and last I heard was a director. She has never had the loss of security and economic desperation I had. My boss warned me when I resigned, that it's very cold in the winter with one blanket, but I didn't listen.

Well, it was cold. So I think the more enlightened policies (if you know about them & can admit your problem) could be a life-saver for some people.

Just had to chuck that one in. About Clinton, I think everyone knows he's out of control - he's one of us, after all.
I'm sure it would be a rock bottom to be exposed the way he has been. However, there is so much fear involved in admitting you can't solve your own problems on your own, or that you have any. It's sad isn't it, that as long as we don't admit it, we can all keep the 'perfect' masquerade going. Sometimes I do not attempt to try and disguise my dysfunctionality, because it happened, because I was a television producers assistant, and a bright girl, and now I have trouble remembering people's names.

That's drugs, if you ask me, and I don't give a shit because I am so glad that I am still alive - for whatever reason, I went through the fire and I came out the other side.
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Date: Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 15:52:55 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: Judex
Subject: to Judex
Message:
I guess somehow I have come across on the forum a little too
anti 12 step..
I do try to say in my posts that it works for a lot of people.
Glad you are one of them. My thing about Clinton is just that it seems like it would be a way to shut the press up.. I get so sick of all that dreck.

And really Judex you seem to be to be highly intelligent. Maybe you just haven't been working in a capacity where you can exercise it? My theory is it's just like a muscle, you need to do the mental exercises from time to time.
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Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 21:08:36 (EST)
From: Joy
Email: Bluebirdd@aol.com
To: bftb
Subject: The Christian Cult
Message:
Yes, it is scary. There's a very good book I read about this recently, called Stealing Jesus: How Fundamentalism Betrays Christianity, by Bruce Bawer (or Bower), an openly gay but also serious Christian man, and incredible writer. Very illuminating. He takes the fundamentalist trip to the cleaners piece by piece (and none of the major players escape). I highly recommend it, I got it from the library.
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Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 14:57:11 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: JW
Subject: The Christian Cult
Message:
Dear Joe,
Here is a topic I think even Jim and I can agree on. I am almost ashamed to tell you this, but then it isn't me and out of my control. My youngest sister whom I love very much is a fundimantel Chistian, and lives in Texas BTW, ugh, I am afraid to think she is envolved with this. I must say in her defense that she, at least with me, stays open minded. No self respecting fundamentalist Christian could put up with me normally. Anyway she use to make herself some beautiful dresses before she was married. She dated her current/only husband and it wasn't until after their wedding that he told her in general which clothes he did not like which included ALL the handmade dresses! They were not revealing, just an expression of her creative talents! I only know this because she gave them to me, and knowing how she loved some of them I inquired. Turned my stomach then and now. Her husband is a judgemental minister, now that I think about it I've already posted about him wrongfully using the word faggot in my home.
Scary isn't it!
Robyn
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Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 16:14:00 (EST)
From: John
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: The Christian Cult
Message:
You know what's amazing? That same story was on the front page of our Raleigh newspaper this morning. I figured it was just a bible belt story.
Do you think the fundamentalists are happy about all the publicity?
My prediction? By the year 3000, every single living baptist fundamentalists will be dead and forgotten.
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Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 17:01:05 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: John
Subject: Christian Cult (bftb and John)
Message:
John,

By the year 3000, every single living baptist fundamentalists will be dead and forgotten.

You mean, you expect we might have to put up with 1000 years of this? That's a terrifying thought.

Seriously, speaking as a hated 'sodomite,' I have met a number of fundamentalist christians and I even have one or two in my family. By and large, they are not monsters, they are very nice people. But, they are also very SCARED people. They are basically scared of the modern world and of social changes that are happening very quickly and are unsettling to their out-dated view of 'the family.'

I think this is true of ALL fundamentalism, whether it's Christian, Islamic, Hindu, or anything else. I think they share the characteristic in common, a desire to work against social and cultural change that they see as threatening. The problem is, they can't really do it; it's a losing battle. And as time goes on, they sound more and more out of touch with reality and downright nutty.

Indeed, the reason their positions and arguments, as in the Baptist's statement, sound so prudish, dated and irrational is because they are.

One interesting thing is how much power the Christian right has over the Republican party. Consequently, the candidates they nominate and the positions they have to take (like on abortion, gay rights, etc.) to satisfy this extreme, but very vocal element of the party, hurts them with mainstream voters. I think that convention of theirs in 1992 when Pat Robertson and Pat Buchanan gave those blatantly bigoted and hateful speeches was primarily responsible for Clinton getting elected in 1992. Now, whether that was good or not, it another issue.
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Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 18:12:05 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: The Christian Cult
Message:
JW
Is that like the promise keepers thing? I know they have silimar so-called family values. But this sounds even more extreme.
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Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 18:19:45 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Selena
Subject: The Christian Cult
Message:
Selena,

I actually have a brother-in-law that is a Promise Keeper. I know they have the same 'women-should-be-submissive-to-their-husbands' belief, but they supposedly focus on getting men to 'take back the leadership of the family,' So, I think it's kind of the same thing from another angle. [It's funny, because my sister, in my opinion, is quite 'dominant' in that family. I can't imagine my little sister being 'submissive' to anybody.]

The Promise Keepers say they have no political agenda, but the people who run the organization are real politco types. The leader is that guy who used to be coach at the University of Colorado. He was primarily behind Colorado's 'Amendment 2' which banned any gay rights ordinances in Colorado. Fortunately, it was struck down as unconstitutional by the Supreme Court in 1996 in Roemer v. Evans.
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Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 18:56:11 (EST)
From: x
Email: None
To: everybody
Subject: The Christian Cult
Message:
I'm sorry but I hate Christians and republicans(is there a difference?), even more than I hate BM.
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Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 20:08:36 (EST)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: IS THIS ABOUT MAHARAJI?
Message:
Sorry guys,
but how can such strong anti-mysticism messages be posted on the grounds that mysticism has nothing to do with the reason for this forum...and then a thread about christianity be allowed to go unchallenged. No mention of BM.
Get my point?
Selective aren't we?
It feels a bit like ethnic cleansing!
Keith
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Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 20:19:01 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: Keith and mystics
Subject: IS THIS ABOUT MAHARAJI?
Message:
I don't really understand why people are so upset about Jim and whoever else was making fun of the mystical stuff. It's all just opinions. If someone's strong personality dominates - so what?
Jim is a good writer. He works in an area that relies on persuation. He can't help himself. Poor guy.
I just don't see the reason for all the upset. Who cares if he doesn't believe I saw a ghost or doesn't believe anything?
The thing I find the most fun about the forum is: we all have something in common yet we are all unique individuals and sometimes we share other things. Hunter Thompson doesn't have anything to do with the BM either. At least I sincerely doubt it. Neither does AA.
Isn't this thing getting a wee bit out of hand?
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Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 20:30:59 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: Selena
Subject: bm and the full moon
Message:
Oh yeah and did I tell you guys I was into wicca?
heeeeee..............
Off to the water tower for a druid sacrificial full moon ceremony. I really am into Wicca. My computer is named Justica so watch what you say.
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Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 22:54:38 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Selena
Subject: Wicca
Message:
...I knew it...
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Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 23:36:59 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: Wicca
Message:
Yes you probably did!! I can see them shuddering.
uhh, how did you know?
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Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 23:25:55 (EST)
From: -------((((((((.....broom
Email: None
To: Selena
Subject: witch hazel
Message:
In northampton mass, there are TWO witch stores.
(probably casting spells against each other!)
I bought some small 'blue balls' that had some supposed
use for spells. I bought them as a present for someone.
A guy who has sex a lot. I said to bathe in a tub with one
dissolved in the water and it gets rid of that 'hurts so good'
problem. I dont think he tried it.
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Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 23:35:20 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: -------((((((((.....broom
Subject: witch hazel
Message:
Yeah, blue balls are a not nice amulet. I dont' do that stuff.
I grew up close to Northhampton.. BUT, I am now very far from there. How amazing!

Selena - Grew up close to Amherst.
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Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 20:37:40 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: Selena
Subject: IS THIS ABOUT MAHARAJI?
Message:
Dear Selena,
The problem as I see it is that we were being told our discussion had no place here. I don't know if you've seen these posts but I have been up in arms about the whole thing myself and I don't usually get fired up like this. I agree with what you said about us all having something in common but that we are all unique individuals and share things other than BM. It is natural. I just want to be able to read about stuff I don't know about or find that I do not agree with and feel I should have the right to also post about what is important to me even if everyone doesn't find themselves jumping on that band wagon.
Robyn
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Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 20:50:55 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: off topic from bm
Message:
I did see those posts. I guess I just said to myself 'So what?'
I refuse to be intimidated and you should refuse too. It would be a shame if this forum got completely off subject but I trust that it won't. We are all adults. Remember how upset I got at Carol for trying to referee?
I don't know where I stand on all this newagey stuff. But I have to admit the ongoing logic and science threads I have read here are boring to ME. Obviously not to the ones discussing them. It does seem that Jim is criticising something I have seen *him* do over and over, just with science instead of magic.
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Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 22:24:59 (EST)
From: charles
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: IS THIS ABOUT MAHARAJI?
Message:
As a matter of fact, and this without quotes, but as a matter of fact one of the most oft stated problems with Mr. Rawat from mystics and rationalists alike is that he restricts discussion to one topic or no topics at all. I would be really bored with a discussion that restricted itself to what Mr. Rawat did or didn't do. Wouldn't that be something like watching videos in silence and going away in silence? Aren't some of us approaching the state of not caring one way or the other? Wouldn't it be enlightening to do a little moving on?
Now who, if anyone, came to Mr. Rawat and his claims and program without any sense of the mystical or religious? I may be missing something but I never saw anything else in it. It sure as hell wasn't a business oppurtunity even though some of the premies who post here would like to make it seem like that and argue their points on that basis.
I think that what I get here is definitely extra-rational as well as rational. I mean I get benefits that I really cannot explain rationally other than to admit that my thinking has improved and my exposure to other points of view has increased immensely. These facts could explain some of the insight that I have gained but the fact that I am now off caffiene after struggling with that for years and finally just succumbing. I mean it is no more of a proof than post hoc ergo propter hoc, but it did seem a bit of an unusual coincidence. But we are not discussing the psychic impact of the Forum. I mean that is just too far fetched a notion to suffer.
Oh, sorry for my absence. I was preoccupied. I am glad you are all still here. Maybe what I will get over next will be my tendency to be superstitious and irrational. Who knows?
Charles
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Date: Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 10:46:35 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: charles
Subject: Charles
Message:
Dear Charles,
I think that Jim and whom ever else, feels that yes they did come to BM with mysticism and in the bright light of religion, no religion for me thanks, but anyway after getting fucked royally by the big guy he has had enough and just can't take anymore.
Personally, I love it! Extra-rational and rational, EXACTLY!!!
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 23:08:50 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: IS THIS ABOUT MAHARAJI?
Message:
Who the hell said you can't discuss mysticism? Go right ahead. Like anything else, you have to be prepared for the fact that someone might think it's in irrelevent, stupid topic, but that's what discussion and debate is about.

I think the Christianity Cult stuff IS related to BM. I don't think it takes a rocket scientist to figure out the similarities.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 10:52:15 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: JW
Subject: IS THIS ABOUT MAHARAJI?
Message:
Dear Joe,
I don't feel like looking for the references at all and maybe they weren't even there in more than my mind but I know I don't get upset here all that easily and I was VERY upset yesterday and I really believe Jim said this stuff SHOULD not be here. I felt like this place is important to me and I have found some who are interested in what really intrests me and I was happy about it and didn't want to give it up without fighting for it. I was really distraught about it, magnified by 5 sleepless weeks I realize but that just brought me to the fight quicker, I think. Always good to read what you have to say dear.
Robyn
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Date: Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 02:57:14 (EST)
From: charles
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: christianity & BM
Message:
I was often struck by the many and obvious similarities between how we talked as proselytising premies and how proselytising christians talked. And all of the devotional activities were so similar to the way many christians did it. And the notion of a Lord of All is certainly christian if not exclusively so. I am certain that an extra-terrestrial would not be able to distinguish premies from Jehovah's Witnesses for one example. Maybe the whole trip was designed with the christian heritage of most of the people of this country in mind. It has been easy for me for many years to see the shallowness and banality of most of the christian thing but I was perfectly willing, even while aware of the similarities, to go along as a premie like the same mindless robot I thought the christians were never stopping to consider that I was mimicing them quite well. And christianity has that other distasteful trait of being exclusive and pretentiously superior, which is certainly a trait shared by almost all premies. Of course. It was obvious.
Charles
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Date: Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 04:55:41 (EST)
From: carol
Email: None
To: charles
Subject: christianity & BM
Message:
Dear Charles,
There are as many kinds of Christians as trees in the forest,(no they're getting cut down fast), as fleas on dog, as pleas to a god. Some of them aspire to live their lives believing in Jesus as an example not an exception and working at putting love first. Some do a pretty good job of it! In and out of all faiths the people are not of one kind. I dislike stereotyping of people by their religion,race or job or sex, etc.
carol
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Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 23:15:02 (EST)
From: *<*...b
Email: None
To: Selena
Subject: The promise keeperettes
Message:
I went to the washington promise keeper event last year
and I of course made it good fun but I did look out for
ANY sentence that Jill Ireland and the Now ladies could object
to and I was right up front and I heard it all and there
was NOTHING at all that you could pull out and say-That sentence
was oppressive! The thrust of thier meetings at the local level
are frankly just regular guys and those guys come into the
meetings with thier ideologies and prejudices already
constructed. From other sources. The meetings are basically
coffe and donuts and some speaker from outside the area
talking about: character, false hero's, how to be the husband
your wife wants(put on by a women) and her message was
this: Your wife wants you to light up when she comes in the room
because you are happy to be with her. She gave an example
of a what some students did to thier teacher as an expiriment.
The classmates decided to 'light up' thier eyes and interest
whenever the teacher spoke from next to the heater.
After a few weeks, the teacher spoke almost the whole class
from SITTING on the heater. Which he previously didn't even
stand near very often.
People love when someone is interested honestly in thier
existance and is thier good friend, really.
It is that kind of message at the meetings. Upbeat, and
not dogmatic. Because they get all kinds of christians at
the promise keeper meetings and if they start preaching, well,
every church group has it's slant and it will decend into
scriptural debates which will kill attendance. Fast.

There is a vast difference between the average joe and zealots.
Certainly there are zealots at the meetings, but they aren't
asked to speak! This aint AA where everyone gets to blabber.

At the saturday morning mens breakfasts I go to sometimes,
there are some old guys who are so damn simple and wise
that it keeps me going back. Relaxed and battle scarred,
but with some depth and easy joy. I think you don't end up
like that if you live like 'i am god' . I think Trent in
25 years might be a bit like doc rather than these guys.
NOT what you want as a result! To grow old gracefully is
an interesting sentence. I'll have to think about what that
means. Ideas?
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Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 23:26:16 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: *<*...b
Subject: The promise keeperettes
Message:
You have no way of knowing this, but I posted a private email
to Katie about 2 hours ago explaining why my new office mate drives me up a wall. In this mail I talked about my old office mate. She can testify to this. I told her that he was an angel and that there was just simply no other way to describe him. I told her that he was a brilliant programmer and how well we worked together. I told her I loved him as a friend and sincerely in a purely platonic way. What I didn't tell her is he is a Christian
who has attended the Promise Keeper events. He has a daughter about 3 years old and he is in his 20's and the best father I have ever ever seen. He is cool and funny and totally non-judgemental. he is my favorite person at work. So, I guess what I am saying is if this man is any example than I have no problem with the basic philosophy. But I wonder about what JW said about the political motives of the founders. That does scare me. The thing is, I think this person would be amazing no matter what he got into. He is just like that. He knows how to take the good and leave the rest. After all, he likes me. A lot. And I am about as far from Christian as you can get. (I wasn't kidding about Wicca and he knows that and discusses it with me, with intelligence and insight)
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Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 23:44:38 (EST)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: Selena
Subject: The promise keeperettes
Message:
Selena,
It is so enlightening to meet someone who is so naturally 'good' that it really wouldn't matter what they were into.
This reminds me of many people I've met like that.
It only goes to show how we should not judge others superficially.
God ; what a breakthrough it would be if one day Jim and I could actually say something really loving to each other.
And mean it!
Keith
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Date: Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 00:00:12 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: The promise keeperettes
Message:
Yes Keith. that is how it is. This person is one of the most
naturally good people I have ever met.
And, now that I am out of the closet;
given time, everything comes full circle. Given time, everything turns into it's opposite. Who would have thought you and I would be communicating, based on the rocky start we got off to?
Don't worry about Jim. He is funny and very intelligent. I like him but let a lot of stuff just go by.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 00:56:44 (EST)
From: eb
Email: None
To: *<*...b
Subject: The promise keeperettes
Message:
To grow old gracefully?

I have seen numerous examples of how not to do it. Whiners, complainers, negative thinkers.

Appreciation and gratitude must be among the components of graceful aging, IMHO.

Love your posts, *<*...b

eb
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Date: Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 03:16:42 (EST)
From: charles
Email: None
To: eb
Subject: growing old, no promises
Message:
I had a grandmother who many said was an example of someone who grew old gracefully. I was just a child but I thought they were referring to the fact that she did not pretend in any way to be younger or sexier or more stylish than she was. She did not wear make-up, she dressed simply, she did not pay a lot of attention to her weight, she was easy going, and took care of her responsibilities with little or no complaining. She did not try to keep abreast of the latest trends. Instead she enjoyed her friends and family and at the end of her life she had a lot of friends and family members who stayed by her and loved her. For myself I would only add that it might be wise to care for your health as well as you are able and to not ignore the changing needs of your body.
Thanks for bringing that up. It was good to remember her. She was very kind to me.
charles
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Date: Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 16:42:16 (EST)
From: PaulR
Email: pgrobinson@hotmail.com
To: charles
Subject: growing old, no promises
Message:
Nice Comment Charles.

I remember GM saying, (at a program) that some people have nothing to show for their lives. That it's all on their gravestone born this date, died that date, and he was a nice guy. And I remember thinking; 'what's wrong with that.'

It's OK to grow through life gracefully, not have any pretensions, and not have enemies at the end of it.

Oh yeah, and please E-Mail me an address, I want to ask for some advice of you.
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Date: Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 18:20:22 (EST)
From: Iola
Email: None
To: PaulR
Subject: growing old, no promises
Message:
I wish I could go back to being 20 again and start all over. My brain is so badly wired, I don't know which end is up. As far as
functioning in the world--it's OK.

I am well liked by most people, and I like almost everyone.

BUT BUT BUT I spent my youth sitting on my butt spending every dime going to see MJ and being connected to K things.

I don't seem to enjoy doing anything:

Reading: I only read manuals (HOW TO DO BOOKS) because we were told that we didn't need to read fiction or watch movies--we had a live movie to watch.

The only thing I still like to do is drink coffee and smoke.

Everything seems to be related to coffee, smoking, MJ and K ... speaking of the well the little frog lived in.

How do you get to the ocean.
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Date: Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 18:36:27 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: Iola
Subject: growing old, no promises
Message:
Go out and get drunk.
That advice will go over big around here, I can tell.

but really, do the equivilant - something that will make you feel rebellious and young and free. Do it again. Tell some sanctimonious self righteous type to go fuck themselves, that you are tired of their shit and you want to think for yourself for a change. (as long as it's not me!!) NO, even if it is me!!
Take the money you were going to spend on the next 'event' and stay in a nice hotel by the ocean. Walk on the boardwalk. See how nice it feels to feel. Watch some couple kissing.
and Stay on the forum. IT's fun!
Help me do chain heresy. Start the tread.
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Date: Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 22:26:26 (EST)
From: Joy
Email: None
To: Iola
Subject: growing old, no promises
Message:
Iola, I can totally relate. After ten years in the ashram, during which I had not read a single book (except maybe the Narnia Chronicles, accepted premie reading), read a newspaper, seen a movie, watched televison or listened to radio (I didn't even know Watergate happened), it was time to get back into it all! Pick one thing that interests you -- a movie perhaps? -- and GO. It's such a big, wide wonderful world out there, and there's so much of interest and value, it's a shame we stuck our heads in the sand and made BM the focus of our entire lives for so long. What are your interests? Maybe make a list. Crafts? Nature hikes? Music (what type? classical? folk? rock?); books (go into a Borders or some other large bookstore, browse for an hour); films; drugs-sex-rock'n'roll (not advised, but sure got me back on my feet in a hurry!)

One of the insidious traps of cult-like involvement is it is more immediately stimulating than a lot of other activities, since we feel like the special and chosen ones. But in the long run, though worldly pursuits may seem less attractive on the surface, they are ultimately more fulfilling because there is some substance there, and lots of other interesting people to share your experiences with (not just the group members). But my experience, actually, has been that you can't just enjoy worldly pursuits alone, you must have a grounding in some sort of spiritual practice, which may seem to contradict what I just said.

But it took me ten years of having no spiritual involvements at all (I was totally frozen and burned out, thanks to my involvement with BM) and just straight indulgence in 'the world' to rediscover spirituality and begin to integrate the two. But I feel, personally, that a period of just plain immersion in 'the world' is a good thing for as long as it takes to counteract the emptiness inside caused by involvement in the BM cult. To look for another spiritual group straight off the bat can be hazardous as you're in too delicate a position to be able to have the judgment, at that point, to discern a genuine spiritual path from cult-like groups (I learned this the hard way). Hope this isn't too confusing. The fact that I am hanging out on this site after 17 years of non-involvement with BM is testimony to the fact that it takes time to heal. But I feel SO much more whole now than when I left, it is amazing the difference.

Take care, and lots of love and good wishes to you,
Joy
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Date: Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 19:24:32 (EST)
From: carol
Email: None
To: charles
Subject: growing old, no promises
Message:
Charles, you said,'For myself I would only add that it might be wise to care for your health as well as you are able and to not ignore the changing needs of your body.'

I heartily agree with you. Being a hospice volunteer, my latest patient has ovarian cancer which has spread to her lungs. I think she tried to eat right and stay fit, used herbs, and acupuncture, and chiropractors, but ignored certain mainstream medical recommendations and treatments until the cancer was too advanced to treat. She is only 56!

I hope all of you will do the diagnostic tests that can detect treatable cancer.
carol
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Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 13:36:43 (EST)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Everyone
Subject: Children Attending Events
Message:
In response to x's thread below about children at events, the page that parents are requested to read goes like this:

Children Attending Events Where Maharaji Is Speaking
In a effort to create a focused and quiet environment at events, please consider the following information before bringing children.

Which children are invited to attend events?
Children 8 years of age and older who:
1.
have already been introduced to Maharaji and his message
2. wish to attend out of their own genuine interest in listening more
3. are able to sit quietly throughout the event.

Please do not encourage your child, but allow him/her to make the decision to attend based on personal interest.

Consider making alternative child care arrangements in case your child does not attend the event.

Making seating reservations:
Please reserve a seat next to you for your child - using the same reservation form as for yourself. Safety regulations do not allow two people to sit in one seat. You many also request a seat near to an aisle for easier exit if you need to leave during the event. (Making a seating reservation does not guarantee attendance for a child - the child also needs to meet the attendance requirements above.)

Obtaining an Entry Pass for the event:
On arrival, children between the ages of 8 and 12 need to obtain an entry pass from the Child Reception table. This pass needs to be worn throughout the event. It helps to identify the child if he/she becomes separated from the parent(s) and lets ushers know that the child is registered. Parents and children need to go to the Child Reception table well before the event starts. This table will be open from the time the lobby open until 30 minutes before the event begins.

Reminders:
* Child care is not available at events.
* For safety, a child need to be accomanied by an adult at all times.
* If a child becomes restless or disturbs other attendees during an event, please take the child out of the hall.
* Lobby areas are not suitable for children or parents to wait while an event is in progress.
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Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 17:35:00 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Children Attending Events
Message:
God that sounds so bleak. How sad.
And some poor kids are going to feel really special cause they met the 'requirements'. They belong. Their parents are so proud.
I am disturbed by this.

Please do not encourage your child, but allow him/her to make the decision to attend based on personal interest.

AS IF!!! Come on who are they kidding? Just covering their butts if you ask me. Only a rare child can break loose enough at that age to seperate their desires from the perceived expectations of the parents.

Consider making alternative child care arrangements in case your child does not attend the event.

Not a bad idea. Beats chaining them up in the attic.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 23:53:04 (EST)
From: Iola
Email: None
To: Selena
Subject: Children Attending Events
Message:
Remember when MJ encouraged people to bring their children. I never brought my daughter, but I often looked after someone else's.

Most of my friends' children and my own child are not particularly interested in K or MJ. You have to be 18 to be initiated by M nowadays.
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Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 11:50:25 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Keith's tea room - NOT!
Message:
Listen,

I'm getting ticked off. Keith, when you say:

The reason for these mystical threads is because there is so much athiestic and materialistic nonsense discussed on this forum

you should mention, at the same time, that you're not into discussing any of your beliefs rationally. I think you said it all when you said:

Where would I be without you Jim.
Only one question;
Who makes the rules?

But really, my point is ...I can't bother with all this
prove it to me stuff.
If you enjoy all these sooo precise scientific formula's for understanding the universe..and yourself.....then good for you....enjoy!!


Keith, your disdain for reality is starting to really piss me off. And not just you, I'm getting really tired of all of the rest of the mystical chatter here that jsut makes this place look like a new age drop in centre. Look, people read this board to understand if there's some insights we've made with respect to M. Those insights are not that he's a bad tarot card reader but you're a better one. Sure, you guys can do what you want, but I tell you, it's absolutely counter-productive and serves no purpose. Gerry's got a great idea -- why not just get involved in his email list?

See, Keith, the 'nonsense' you're talking about can at least be talked about rationally. Your ca ca can't. Once the discussion gets to 'I don't care if it's true, I like it' it's no better than anything any premie believes no matter what. Can't you see that?

Good for you, Keith, that you seem to have slid away form Maharaji. But, if it was just to fly around the room like some spiritual parrot released from your cage I'd almost be happier if you hadn't been so liberated. There's bird shit all over here now.
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Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 11:59:52 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: Jim
Subject: Keith's tea room - NOT!
Message:
Dear Jim,
I admit that the statement you've quoted from Keith also rubbed me the wrong way but lots of things you say rub me the wrong way yet I believe in your right to say them and also in my/your right to comment on them.
When you experience these things yourself that is either proff enough or you have to consider yourself crazy, unworthy of your own respect and validation, diseased and in need of a cure. I choose to validate myself, thank you.
Jim, when you've had the runs you've felt comfortable with relieving yourself here. Consider that. This may be a subject for the committee and I would surely abide by their dicission. I truly believe we all have a right to be here and co-exist and intermingle and learn from each other. In your mind what would be the conditions for acceptable topics to speak on, any you don't personally get into?
FUCK! Just my present therapy, thank you.
Robyn
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Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 12:08:29 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Keith's tea room - NOT!
Message:
Jim, when you've had the runs you've felt comfortable with relieving yourself here. Consider that. This may be a subject for the committee and I would surely abide by their dicission

Go hug yourself, Robin.
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Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 12:33:39 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: Jim
Subject: Jim
Message:
Jim,
I am just responding to you in case you thought I wrote that quote to be nasty, not the case. Just another example of the short comings of the written word if you read it that way.
I am trying not to back down from you with my opinion here. You are a powerful personality. I am not just kidding when I say I like you and respect you and know you have a sensitive side. You have strong feelings and although I don't get into a place of strong conviction often I feel it now and have to make myself be a bit harsh if that is what it takes for me to not just be all flowers and sweetness with you, to keep from just bowing down to your strong personality. I can still appreciate you as a valuable person in general and feel thankful to you for being a part of starting this site. Can't you allow me to be who I am without feeling contempt?
Hopefully I am reading more anomosity into your written quip here than you intended.
Robyn

Robyn
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Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 13:20:49 (EST)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Refresher Course
Message:
Robyn,
As your cursing advisor, I recommend skipping an explanation and tell Jim he's getting on your last nerve and that you're getting ready to open a can of whoop-ass. Then ask him who died and made him God, and that if you want to be new-age, you don't need any two-bit schmendrick telling you what to do. You might mention that from now on you'll be running things.
Just trying to help.
Rick
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Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 13:57:48 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: Slight correction
Message:
OK - I'm still laughing. Rick, you are great!

But isn't it 'whup-ass'?
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Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 14:33:44 (EST)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Slight correction
Message:
Yes, Katie, now that you mention it, it's whup. Leave it to a gal who knows what 'southern' is, to get these things right.
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Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 19:27:52 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: Rick
Message:
Hey, Rick --- Did the video arrive?
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Date: Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 00:30:54 (EST)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: JW
Message:
Hi JW,
I didn't check my box today but as of yesterday it hadn't arrived yet. I'll check again tomorrow and let you know. Thanks.
Rick
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Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 15:04:39 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: Rick
Subject: Refresher Course
Message:
Dear Rick,
I really thought of you while I was writing that! You are truly my cursing advisor.
I know I need to stop the explinations. I think I posted to Katie that I have so far only used cursing in jest, never as a tool of anger. I was angry at Jim but still only through the word in as a watered down after thought. I'm working on it, have patience!
Thank you,
Your apprentess
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Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 19:24:20 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: Rick
Subject: Jim
Message:
Robyn,
As your cursing advisor, I recommend skipping an explanation and tell Jim he's getting on your last nerve and that you're getting ready to open a can of whoop-ass.
Then ask him who died and made him God, and that if you want to be new-age, you don't need any two-bit schmendrick telling you what to do. You might mention that from now on you'll be running things.
Just trying to help.
Rick


Jim,
Yeah, what Rick said!
Robyn
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Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 15:53:22 (EST)
From: Anon
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Keith's tea room - NOT!
Message:
Jim wrote:

And not just you, I'm getting really tired of all of the rest of the mystical chatter here that jsut makes this place look like a new age drop in centre. Look, people read this board to understand if there's some insights we've made with respect to M. Those insights are not that he's a bad tarot card reader but you're a better one. Sure, you guys can do what you want, but I tell you, it's absolutely counter-productive and serves no purpose. Gerry's got a great idea -- why not just get involved in his email list?

I tend to agree with Jim about this. The forum periodically becomes extremely swamped with discussions that can only be described as peripheral to the main, stated agenda of the page. It would be good, in particular for the benefit of those who read, expecting a more concentrated debate about Maharaji, if regular contributors appreciated and had more sensitivity towards keeping the discussions on track.

Switch on the TV. Any well presented discussion usually has a presenter who is somewhat in control of the situation and who will step in when things stray too far from the central theme. There is a parallel in that the discussions on this forum are clearly intended to also be for the benefit of a 'possibly too timid to partcipate' audience who will not be engaged by a lot of off-topic talk. Seeing as there is no 'presenter' in this situation, I personally try to resist the temptation to indulge in too much chat, out of sympathy for those other people. It is often said that the intention of the forum is to provide a place for disenchanted premies to 'recover'. Many will not want to wade through a lot of irrelevance.
It also seems hardly worth Brians effort to archive pages of 'hallo, how are you doin'? Hows your aura...' kind of stuff. Who's going to read through it all??

Whilst it could be argued that it is distantly relevant to discuss the endless interpretations of spiritual experience versus atheism, ad infinitum, it has to be said that there is a wealth of much more central contentious stuff that remains largely undiscussed. I think it is up to those who are keen to keep this forum more focussed on these issues to go ahead and create threads on these subjects (as I feel I have done) and to possibly resist the temptation to enjoin those who wish to 'wander into other areas'. This just seems to make matters worse.

If Gerry can succesfully divert some of the new age traffic his way then so much the better as far as I'm concerned. If however people insist on filling the forum with general letter writing, I think that the energies of those who are disinterested in such communications are better spent helping Brian and his team to formulate some really good articles with which to decorate the main website. Although the forum is a good place to collect and filter information, it can be a dizzying place for a newcomer to lurk. The main website could easily host some more well thought out, and interesting articles and it is absolutely begging for some summary of the 'best of' the Forum messages.
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Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 16:23:31 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: Anon
Subject: Keith's tea room - NOT!
Message:
Dear Anon,
It is often said that the intention of the forum is to provide a place for disenchanted premies to 'recover'. Many will not want to wade through a lot of irrelevance. It also seems hardly worth Brians effort to archive pages of 'hallo, how are you doin'? Hows your aura...' kind of stuff. Who's going to read through it all??

First of all Brian does have to archive all the mystical stuff along with all the iron/lightbulb and scientific stuff. That is itself is the best reason I can think of for cutting all these extranious(sp) topics out. And, Anon, I am the one who reads through the archives and catagorizes them so I am OK with that! The only other thing I want to add is that just because we are all human is reason enough to tred off topic, Caro, Gerry, Richard, Judex, and more, I am probably forgetting are resent additions here and all have fallen in quite nicely with the range of discussions, on and off topic. I see what you are saying but I'm not sure it is it really keeping anyone new from getting anything from this forum.
Robyn
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Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 16:49:22 (EST)
From: Anon
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Keith's tea room - NOT!
Message:
OK OK I agree. The fact that people are free to chat off topic is in itself a most welcoming thing. I take your point. I'll shut up. Mark told me that I was a tight arse in the ashram..I still have a lot of recovery to do!
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Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 18:43:18 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: Anon
Subject: Keith's tea room - NOT!
Message:
Thanks, Anon, I needed that big time :)
Robyn
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Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 20:39:53 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Anon
Subject: Et tu, Anon?
Message:
The fact that people are free to chat off topic is in itself a most welcoming thing. I take your point. I'll shut up.

If the point is that rationally is just one way to discuss something, no better or worse than any other, then you've got to be kidding. Mysticism can't stand up to real analysis anymore than Maharaji can. Keith and co's 'rebellion' against reason is pathetic. Judex is right about one thing -- that's how we got into this mess to begin with.

So, whatever. If Keith, Robyn or anyone else want to discuss their beliefs here, fine. But if they're looking for a reprieve from the skeptical eye in the name of some ridiculous relativism, if they want to be able to say whatever and leave it unchallenged because it's 'true for them' (as opposed to simply 'true'), then I don't want any part of that. Frankly, I'm embarrassed and sorely disappointed to know that people will tune into this page and plop right into Katie's tarot reading, or Robyn's astrology or Keith's ongoing paen to ignorance. At that point, I guess, I'll stop turning people on to this site. How could I do otherwise?

So, there it is. Take away the clear critical eye that we've all earned after all that Maharaji shit, and I'm not interested. I'm not saying I have all the answers to anything BUT I've grown an aversion to people playing at wanting them. Sure, consider your beliefs and experiences but do so honestly. If it's the 'mystery' you love so much, I guess that's alright too. The only problem is, if you're going to talk about it here, you ARE going to get challenged by people who want a little more truth. Oh yeah, that's TRUTH, as in what's correct as opposed to what's incorrect.

I've had a lot of fun entertaining all kinds of mystical fantasies in the past. Hey, I'm still happy to explore unchartered territory but if something's false, let's face it, it's appalling for us ex's in particular to accept it because it's fun. And things that aren't proven true or false? How can we just 'choose' to accept them as true 'cause it's fun? Haven't we learnt that we need to just leave them as unanswered questions?

Science is THE approach to truth we need to respect. Someone said that the brain is the last great frontier in terms of so much 'personal' experience and of course that's true. Unfortunately, it's not so easy for us all to bullshit about this field because it's a real field that most of us, myself included, know dick about. So how much easier to trash scientists and play Mr. Wizard? You tell me, Keith, how much?

Anyway, call me petulant, but if this page ever succumbs to that kind of relativism as some sort of norm, stated or not, I'm out of here.
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Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 21:09:43 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Et tu, Jim?
Message:
Jim, I am sick of this discussion and the only thing I want to respond to is the crack you made about 'Katie's Tarot reading'. I have never talked about that before on the forum, and all I did today was ask Keith what Tarot deck he was using and mention that I had read cards before I was a premie. What the fuck is the matter with that? I used to do a lot weirder stuff than that.

By the way, that fact is also in my Journeys entry which is on the site for all to see, so you better keep any friends that you might be embarrassed in front of away from that part of the web site as well. And may I remind you that there have been people who read this site and came away with the clear impression that Ex-premies ALL believed in evolutionary psychology, were atheists, and worshipped Richard Dawkins?
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Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 21:27:09 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Et tu, Jim?
Message:
Sorry, Katie. My mistake. I thought it was you who'd done an extensive reading for the page the other day. Remember that post? My mistake, I thought it was yours.

And if people thought that atheism was a direct by-product of worshipping the Living Lord, I'd feel great.
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Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 21:33:05 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Thanks for the apology, Jim
Message:
Thanks Jim - appreciate it. No, I didn't do that reading cause I don't use that particular deck (I'm kidding!). I DID however get so mad at you that I signed up for Gerry's mysticism listserve (watch out, Gerry. If no men sign up for it, it might turn into a moon lodge forum.) So I appreciate the apology - I feel a lot better.

Regards,
Katie
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Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 22:48:40 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Thanks for the apology, Jim
Message:
Thanks for the plug , Katie. There are two men on the list already, so the moon lodge will have to create their own list. It's really easy, BTW, but it does take some maintenance. As a format it sucks, though.

The forum-web based format beats the hell out of a listserver, and I hope to get into a web-format soon, the same style as the forum.

Brian, can I get some html code from you????.
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Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 23:18:55 (EST)
From: eb
Email: None
To: Katie and Jim
Subject: A Mind Divided
Message:
Dear Katie and Jim,
You have both expressed so clearly the struggle I've been dealing with during the past few months. I read Katie's posts and agree, then I read Jim's and agree (sort of). My brain (what's left of it) is divided.

I spent the first 31 years of my life in pursuit of God through mystic pathways. During the past 10 years, my atheist, scientist husband influenced me to get a degree, go to work, and really examine my new age hooey hooey beliefs. I confess, I still go to sweat lodges and drumming circles now and then, but I did quit reading my cards (except when I'm asked to).

Still, I cannot totally discount the experiences I had in my earlier life, even as a premie. I understand that expectations can bring about desired effects. I've played around with a bit of the Wicca myself and seen some results. But can I reproduce them as specified by scientific method of investigation? Nope.

Jim, I keep hoping you'll convert me to atheism, but no luck so far. My husband and I debate this frequently. I hypothesized that atheism might indicate some level of maturity for humans; that understanding life in terms of science alone might be the next evolutionary step. But my brain is apparently not developed enough--I get so depressed without bliss.

Sincerely,
eb
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Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 23:46:58 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: eb
Subject: A Mind Divided
Message:
Actually, eb, I am not sure that you and I, or even Jim and I, are that far apart. I am an agnostic, having been unable to really believe in a higher power since I left Maharaji. In fact, almost all the New Age stuff that I've done since then has been in the cause of psychotherapy rather than spirituality.

I've always been curious about how other people on the forum deal with spirituality - do they have any, and if so what expression does it take? I guess I'm hoping to find something which I feel was taken from me when I realized that Maharaji's trip was not real. I can live without bliss (I hardly ever experienced it as a premie), but what I'd like to find is some meaning in life.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 01:23:36 (EST)
From: eb
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: A Mind Divided
Message:
Thanks, Katie.

You've given me lots to think about today (it's still Wednesday here). I would like to find some meaning in life also. Perhaps the state I describe as bliss is actually a manifestation of mania. I've read up on it a bit, and it sounds quite similar. Very high, very happy, lots of energy, powerful. I find myself on one side or the other often, and I would love to integrate my selves.

I do appreciate you, Katie.
Sorry if I've been squirrelly today.
eb the bunny
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Date: Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 10:01:49 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: eb
Subject: A Mind Divided
Message:
Dear eb,
I don't think you've been 'squirrelly' - I really empathize with your problems with your daughter and wish I could help. I don't have children, purposely, so I really don't know what to say, but I am definitely willing to listen!

Love,
Katie
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Date: Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 11:01:48 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: Katie
Subject: A Mind Divided
Message:
Dear Katie,
That is just what I've said here many times in many different ways. It is directly these amazing experiences that give me a glimpse of the meaning of life, for me. I don't even have a knowing that they are connected to a higher power, I think about it but don't get bogged down there. I also have other theories about other spiritual things. I can live without bliss but not as well.
Love you,
Robyn
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Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 23:03:00 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Et tu, Jim?
Message:
Jim, Katie, et al:

I don't really know which side of this argument I'm on, but can tell you one thing. I don't hang around here because it's such a great 'think tank.' I expect this site to be more organic than that. Rational (scientific) dialog is not the big hole in my life. I want to see people at least start from a rational place, though (and if possible return to it from time to time). And besides, I don't really care all THAT much about Maharaji. I think I care about you guys more. That's a perfectly rational priority as far as I'm concerned. I can't figure out why I thought the little creep was ever very important.

-Scott
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Date: Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 11:06:43 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: Scott T.
Subject: Et tu, Jim?
Message:
Dear Scott,
So good to see your back!! Hope all went well. I wondered what you'd think if you saw all the goings on here. Glad to hear what you had to say. I'm sure you'll let me know if I am not at all in touch with rationality.
The only negative thing about your return is that I'll feel pressed to check my spelling. :( I've been very lazy in that regard and until I get some sleep it looks like you'll have to put up with me!
Robyn
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Date: Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 11:20:35 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Et tu, Jim?
Message:
Dear Scott,
You wrote:
And besides, I don't really care all THAT much about Maharaji. I think I care about you guys more.

I feel the same way, and I will (potentially) feel that way about other people who will be on the forum in the future. The people on this forum come way before Maharaji, IMHO.

Fondly,
Katie
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Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 21:30:09 (EST)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Read my type!
Message:
Jim,
How does one send you an olive branch?
You are so testy!
Hmmm, look if was in the company of a die-hard mystic I'd probably end up sounding more like you....well, somewhere between my jim-response-self and you.
I am a sceptic too.
Let me share with you something that happened a couple of hours ago. In the midst of reading your post.
The telephone rang and it was from a woman who I'd read tarot for a few times some years ago.
She was really distressed because she had had a tarot reading last night from a well known reader who had told her that her relationship with her fiance would end next year.
I'll try and repear some of the things I told her.
'Anita, I realise you've rung me because I never abused you the way that reader did. Listen...if everything was predetermined then maybe she is right...but everything is not predetermined. We have free will ; we make choices. I don't know if your relationship will end next year or continue for all your lives together....it will be what you make it ...' Anita began crying , said thankyou and that was that.
And by the way I was being prompted by a few cards to say what I was saying. It's so relative isn't it.
It's not the tools that count but the user of the tools!!!

Jim, hokum exists. You betya! In every field.
But you should not judge the book so easily by its cover.
You don't know me !!!!
TRY ME ! Now you know I'm into tarot , astrology, I.ching and the like....ask me something. Or have you decided that you know all there is to know ? My olive branch is there ; it's up to you.
Keith
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Date: Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 00:26:23 (EST)
From: Iola
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: Read my type!
Message:
What's in the cards for me, Keith? Other than the fact that I can't seem to stop reading all this stuff in the Forum, and I'm going to be tired at work tomorrow!

My last 24 years have been lived in poverty, chastity and obedience to everyone but myself--what does the future hold? I figure I'm just about dried up for most possibilities. Perhaps I could start a new cult. Maybe I'll just hang on to more of the money I make.

Go ahead and lie to me--everyone else has. Cheer me up!
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Date: Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 06:19:10 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: Iola
Subject: To Iola
Message:
Have to respond to that post. If you are feeling dried up, it's probably because you have spent 24 years giving and not getting much back, not as much as you were perhaps promised, definitly not as much as you deserve.
I hope you can drop the drying-up shit you are getting fed and just give yourself a chance to fill up your tank a bit without the denial and the isolation the World of Knowledge specialises in.
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Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 23:06:32 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Et tu, Anon?
Message:
Oh Jim, for the sake of us all, please lighten up and drop this endlessly circular argument.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 10:00:14 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: Jim
Subject: Jim
Message:
Jim,
My first thought this morning after, oh great cramps! was god I have the right to talk about my personal experiences. No I don't expect you to stay out of it. That is what pissed me off that you were just writing us off. Yes you do get on my last nerve sometimes but we are VERY different personalities, that's all that is. I respect you. I don't think you are perfect, I know I'm not. I have felt that I may have to leave this site or much diminish my presence here. I get so much more from being here that any one topic can get at. It is all intertwined for me. I'd like it tons if you could on a rare occassion just agree to disagree and not have everything be a fight to the death but even that I will work with. It is not easy for me to be assertive, it has to be thought about and pushed through into action but I am also very committed to whatever hits me deeply and so push myself I do. It is easier from this keyboard away from you but it is part of my work. You have helped me with it, when I was first here and asking for help to understand all the bitting male attacks on others. You, Rick and other men REALLY helped me. I think maybe I am working up to just giving it to you, Jim, like Rick suggested. I feel so fired up when I write to you about our latest clash but then when I read it it doesn't nearly convey my feeling it reads watered down and whimpy. Rick is still coaching me. I hope if and when it happens we can have a virtual drink and still be OK with each other. Rick would probably tell me I'm not supposed to tell you in advance but then I am no stratagist. I just deal with shit as it comes my way, off the cuff.
Robyn
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Date: Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 10:59:27 (EST)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Robyn
Message:
Robyn,
I sent you an email at your hotmail address.
Rick
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Date: Thurs, Jun 11, 1998 at 11:10:59 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: Rick
Subject: Robyn
Message:
Dear Rick,
Yippie! :)
I wonder how long these things take to process. I've been wondering that lately. I'll check in a bit.
Robyn
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