Ex-Premie.Org |
Forum III Archive # 16 | |
From: Jul 3, 1998 |
To: Jul 11, 1998 |
Page: 3 Of: 5 |
Date: Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 17:12:22 (EST)
From: David Email: dmjnorw@gis.net To: Everyone Subject: 'Birthday' Message: This is an old computer that will 'boot' me fast, so this posting will be in 3 parts. Today is my 'birthday'. Received Kowlege 25 years ago in a session with Mahatma Fakiranand in NYC. At that time, The Lord of the Universe movie had just been distributed and most of the premies I knew had seen M in India only a few months before... I remember a lot of trips, physical and psychological in those days. Never joined the ashram (too horny!) but lived in a very active community for nearly 10 years. You know, for all the head games, ultimately what I remember from those years was growing up, bemcoming more honest with ourselves, etc. One by one, ashram members started families and moved into the community (a few went to become instructors)...post Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 20:30:31 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: David Subject: David's story, in one post. Message: David: Thought I would take the liberty to compile your story into one post, as a sort of birthday present. David's Story Today is my 'birthday'. Received Kowlege 25 years ago in a session with Mahatma Fakiranand in NYC. At that time, The Lord of the Universe movie had just been distributed and most of the premies I knew had seen M in India only a few months before... I remember a lot of trips, physical and psychological in those days. Never joined the ashram (too horny!) but lived in a very active community for nearly 10 years. You know, for all the head games, ultimately what I remember from those years was growing up, bemcoming more honest with ourselves, etc. One by one, ashram members started families and moved into the community (a few went to become instructors). Ultimately the ashram closed. Divine Sales became Scotty's Furniture... And there was satsang and meditation. Never liked videos, but live satsang was my prod, anchor, and reality check. M himself pretty much became less and less important to me as time went on. Traveling to festivals was exhausting after the 70's marathon ended. But meditation was - and still is - refreshing, though I'm not real regular. Since M decided formal satsang wasn't cool, my wife and I cont'd to get together w/another couple for the 'real stuff' on a regular basis. We still do. We still get together with them for satsang. They go to videos; we stopped @ 10 years ago. This forum seems to be cathartic for a lot of 'expremies'. I guess there's nothing wrong w/that. We were pretty fortunate...most of our anger was flushed back in '76, a very intense year. By the time '77 was done, M didn't matter quite so much. '78-'84 we saw M 3-4 more times, and we haven't seen him (or missed him) since then. We do wish him well. Funny. The word 'premie' seems odd to me now...can't relate to it anymore. Guess that makes me an 'ex' premie. Satsang (a 'foreign' word that entered our vocabulary and stayed) & meditation are forever for me. 'Service' has been translated into social work and action in a religious (Jewish) community. I'm grateful to M for showing me the basic practices. They're good. If he stopped meditating or listening to his own satsang, that's his problem...but from what I've heard here and there from our friends --we haven't been active since @85 -- most folks still genuinely benefit from their experiences. This has been nice. Peace. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jul 08, 1998 at 10:19:32 (EST)
From: Sir David Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: David Subject: David's story, in one post. Message: That's interesting that you have continued with satsang, David. That is one thing which I did miss when Maharaji banned it. I agree, videos are no substitute for real people talking about their experiences. I think Maharaji was a fool to ban satsang as that was the thing which kept his little empire together. You've got to be a real Haharaji freak to want to watch endless videos of him. I was never into that. Your setup sounds good. Aren't the premies who come to your satsang a little guilty that they're disobeying their master's command by attending satsang given by ordinary people? And do they give satsang about Maharaji. You know, the way you've described things, including your service to the local community is brilliant and an example of what Maharaji SHOULD have done. Have you thought of telling other people how to meditate if they're interested? I think that what you are doing is an example of how things could progress in the future. Good for you! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 09, 1998 at 10:07:49 (EST)
From: David Email: None To: Scott Subject: David's story, in one post. Message: Thank you. I really never thought of 'teaching' meditation, viz, the techniques, to anyone. Unlike some who post here regularly, I sincerely believe there is tremendous benefit in 'preparing' for receiving 'Knowlege'. Not because it's mystical or anything. It's psychological. Better post this baby before I'm booted... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 09, 1998 at 10:12:00 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: David Subject: why your posts get cut off Message: Hi David There is a interaction between the forum, Windows 3.1, and Internet Explorer that causes posts to be cut off after a certain number of characters - sorry. (I used to use Windows 3.1 with Netscape to post here and didn't have the same problem.) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 09, 1998 at 11:01:52 (EST)
From: David Email: None To: Katie Subject: Thank you, Katie Message: That at least explains my difficulties...Our computer person told me we're getting a new system by year's end. I'll put a vote in for Netscape! BTW, does the same limitation occur with Win 95 and Explorer 4.0? Talk about digression... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 09, 1998 at 11:23:51 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: David Subject: You're welcome (BRIAN read) Message: Re Windows 95 and IE - I don't think there's the same problem. Brian (webmaster) is much more computer literate than I am, and he is the one who pinpointed the problem with Windows 3.1 and IE, so I've flagged this post for him to read and reply to. (Don't worry about digression - we do it on here ALL the time!) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 09, 1998 at 10:47:32 (EST)
From: David Email: None To: Scott Subject: Receving, con'td. Message: cont'd. Sorry, this dinosaur at work has a short fuse. My wife and I discussed the benefits of preparation after posting my birthday note. Thank-you for consolidating it! Removing all the hocus-pocus, I view preparation for the meditation as necessary for consolidating personal energy, *commitment*, to focus on something that is extremely subtle, especially in our fragmented society. I've met a few people who knew the techniques, and they never really did anything with them. Of course, we've all met plenty of folks who went through the whole process and they never did anything, either...oh well... Anyway, most of my spiritual energies lately (since @ '89) have been focused on studying and discussing Judaic texts from every possible angle with friends, ranging from extremely liberal, to Chasidic, legal to mystical....love it. For us, it's satsang (though I'd never use the word in those contexts, except w/my wife.) [Hey, if I submit and edit, I don't get the 'boot!' Cool] So given all the ab Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 16:53:23 (EST)
From: bftb Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Dee Nile Message: What the hell is it that I want to hang on to so badly? During my Premie days I saw so much that I knew was full of it.Behaviors that just didn't jive at all with what was supposedly taking place.I knew it was very cult like. The most annoying people were the higher ups involved in K selection of the aspirants.They seemed real pleasent on the surface but over time I came to see them as big babies who liked their 'power' positions and the feeling of superiority it seemed to give them.There were a couple who I liked(some tall guy whose name I can't remember and Charanand especially were very warm good people)but most of them seemed like school principals or something.Really the whole thing started feeling like a big clubby loser scene filled with immature people.Spiritual snobs.But I was there for M not other people.So I soldiered on. I could go on here with a lot of other stuff I noticed(Hey,to be fair;there was a lot of good stuff as well and some premies were amongst the finest people I'd ever met)but I guess the point I'm trying to make is that our(my)capacity to ignore the things we don't want to pay too much attention to is very strong. Like on this web site;it has almost been embarrassing to read some premie posts.I mean I'm even getting to a point where I'm sighing in a 'Oh not this circular b.s. rationalising again!'when I read premie posts.Yet still I can't seem to throw out the baby with the bathwater. It walks like a duck,and clucks like a duck yet I still can't call it a duck 100%.Why is that?Maybe it's wanting to hang on because to completely let go would be painful in a sense.No more Santa?Drag. I walked away because I could no longer continue to rationalise all the nonsense in this organisation.All the while I'd ask myself why M did it this way.I asked that because I still felt(feel)M to be sincere so a lot of how things were done didn't make sense to me. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 17:05:30 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: bftb Subject: Dee Nile Message: bftb, I've seen you post here for quite a while now, and I would say you threw out the baby a long time ago, maybe you just haven't said it out loud yet. I might be wrong, but you are way, way too smart and obviously self-aware not to have done that. You've removed yourself physically, you don't consider yourself a premie, all that's left is some corner of your confidence in Maharaji himself. For me, that was the hardest part too. Not because I even knew him at all, and not because I even liked the perecption I had of his, because I didn't. It was because I had been trained, over and over and over to NEVER place blame or doubt onto Maharaji. I could HATE everything else, especially other premies and his organization, but NEVER him. But it really is a small step to take. Just take it. I still felt(feel)M to be sincere bftb, do you have ANY proof of this whatsoever, except for wishful thinking, I mean? I'll have to admit, it took being closer to Maharaji in Miami when I was CC and at the plane project before I could see how INSINCERE he really was. How he would do about anything, to get what he wanted, mostly material stuff. Now, even then I still refused to place responsbility on him, it took awhile before I could do that, but when I did, it all fit together and I became pretty sure of what was really going on. It was hard to see it, but I was finally free. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jul 08, 1998 at 12:40:14 (EST)
From: bftb Email: None To: JW Subject: Dee Nile Message: Man you made me laugh when you wrote' you just haven't said it out loud yet'. When I say sincere I guess I mean that he sincerely believes it all.Whether or not that's sincere delusion is another thing but intent is important to me all the same. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jul 08, 1998 at 13:32:24 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: bftb Subject: Dee Nile Message: When I say sincere I guess I mean that he sincerely believes it all. bftb, I doubt you have any proof for this either. Do you? My take is that he used to believe it, and maybe even now believes it sometimes, but not all the time. I think it's pretty complicated because his life has been so bizarre. I think having yes-men and worshipers around you all the time, leads to all sorts of delusions, whether sincerely believed or not. But why is that even relevent? That BM might be sincere? I don't even see that as an issue. Why should you hang onto something false, just because the salesman might sincerely believe, sometimes, that it isn't false. Some say Hitler sincerely believed he was doing a service to the world by exterminating Jews. But why does that make Hitler any more likable, or believable? I think if you read KK's posts, it's pretty clear that the intent he has is all about money. What I saw was that it was about money, and maybe psychological reinforcement of his delusions that motivated him. He did what he needed to to get money and finance his lifestyle, and also to give him a boost in thinking he was divine. Why else would he dance half naked in front of thousands of people? Only delusions of grandeur would get someone to do that! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jul 08, 1998 at 17:04:02 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: JW Subject: My price Message: Why else would he dance half naked in front of thousands of people? Only delusions of grandeur would get someone to do that! Frankly, Joe, I'd do it for a few drinks and a chance to keep the video. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jul 08, 1998 at 18:24:23 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Jim Subject: Not Cheap Message: Maybe you're just cheap Jim. And Maharaji is NOT cheap. He demands big bucks to dance half naked in front of thousands. If there's a video, there's even more bucks due. I bet he'd dance completely naked (with crown and mala, of couse) if he thought it would make more MONEY and he wouldn't get arrested, and THAT video would cost the premies MORE that $39.95. You can bet your booties on that. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 17:13:54 (EST)
From: Rick Email: None To: bftb Subject: Dee Nile Message: Hi Bill, I never questioned BM's sincerity, either. It's much easier to see the insincerity of premies because you're afforded the chance to interact with them. It took longer for me to see how 'knowledge' lacked integrity, and that BM lacked integrity for teaching it. When I realized how 'knowledge' required people to suppress their thoughts and feelings, I lost my respect for him. When it finally dawned on me that I was going to be 'sitting' there forever, waiting for the magic bliss to really get in gear, I got pissed. Rick Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jul 08, 1998 at 12:44:05 (EST)
From: bftb Email: None To: Rick Subject: Dee Nile Message: I guess it's the suppression of CERTAIN thoughts and feelings which doesn't jive either because it's all supposed to be about FEELING. Just make sure they're the RIGHT feelings. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jul 08, 1998 at 20:31:18 (EST)
From: Rick Email: None To: bftb Subject: Dee Nile Message: That's an interesting topic, Bill. What I understood from the 'satsang' I heard over the years, was that the 'experience' was 'beyond' or 'higher' than emotion, and 'beyond' the five senses. It was 'beyond' duality. I suppose in that sense, it was no different than most Eastern spirituality. BM and others started casually referring to the experience as a 'feeling' but I always thought it was just for convenience sake. What was really conveyed was to shut down emotionally; very damaging advice. It pisses me off to even think about it. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 09, 1998 at 01:02:54 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Rick Subject: Bill? Message: Don't tell me. bftb is a man? I've just had my picture of her/him blown. What can I say? Hi, 'Bill.' Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 09, 1998 at 01:15:02 (EST)
From: bb Email: None To: JW Subject: Not bill b. Message: I thought btftb (been there from the begininng) was different people at different times. But it isn't bill cooper I dont think and it isn't me either. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 09, 1998 at 01:19:18 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: bb Subject: Not bill b. Message: I know it's not you, bb. Rick just referred to bftb as 'Bill', but maybe he thought it was you. Who knows? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 09, 1998 at 02:30:53 (EST)
From: bb Email: None To: JW Subject: For JW--Not a S. post Message: Who is your guess? I have thought Scott from florida, Anon at times, Btftb claims to have been around since the begining of the forum and i am willing to belive that. You get a female sense from the posts? It is one of the longest running forum mysteries I guess. I also have liked reading his or her posts. Unless I miss my guess, I think Anon has been very inventive here with other personas. And for the good of the forum. By the way, traveling in the christian circles as I have done lately, there are old testament us verses them types creeping out of the soulth that have a definate anti gay agenda. I have countered it three times. And not to wild applause either. I have got the trip figured out though and they don't have a response to me. I give them the only so-called commandment of yeshua/jesus. The one about that THIER job is to try to love. And also yeshua talked about judgeing and it is hard for them to sputter on if I am around saying that kind of stuff. this is the ADULT section of this post, so dont read this if you dont view x rated typeing. Only thing is JW, I don't know how you can top sex with a woman with active insides. Oral and anal can -ahem- eat thier hearts out because all you do is install the thing ONCE and leave it in the woman and her internal muscles do all the rest. No other body part can top that machinery. You may have to advertise to dance with that machinery as not all of the private parts out there are fully operational. I'd like to read a CD post after he had sex. Remember the rateing system? We could have a S. for posts written while still smoking the cigarette. By the way, this is not a S. post. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 09, 1998 at 13:20:58 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: bb Subject: Bill, Wanna Talk About Sex? Message: Bill, you kill me. You are quite a guy. I think bftb is a person distinct from anyone else who posts. He/she just has a style distinct from any other contributor to the forum. At least that's my opinion, but I could be wrong. Don't know why he/she needs to be anonymous, but I do respect that. Yeah, the Christian Right-wing is using gay-bashing to raise money. They use the Bible (mininterpreted) as support. Years ago, they used the Bible to condone slavery, racial discrimination, the superiority of the white race, anti-semitism, and a myriad of atrocities. This is nothing new. I think the reason you don't see how you can 'top sex with a woman' is because you are heterosexual, Bill. That's the nature of heterosexuals, they like to have sex with the opposite sex. I have nothing against them. I have lots of heterosexual friends and I don't think they should be discriminated against or persecuted. As long as they keep it to themselves, and don't flaunt what they do in the bedroom where everyone has to see it, I think heterosexuals can be very fine people. I think they can even be good parents, and I think they should be allowed to get married legally. I mean, it's only fair, right? Some day, I'm sure we will even have heterosexual elected officials, and I've heard there are heterosexual teachers, doctors and lawyers. I have heterosexuals in my own family and I love them nonetheless. I'd even support a sitcom on TV which had a lead played by a heterosexual (with appropriate warnings shown before every show, of course). Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 09, 1998 at 17:00:05 (EST)
From: bb Email: None To: JW Subject: Bill, Wanna Talk About Sex? Message: Thanks for the laugh JW. I just lunched with my lesbian sister and she invited me out tonight. I stopped by a chocolate store and bought a 'gay bar' candy bar shaped in a triangle to give her tonight. There are 38 gay characters on prime time today. I think the war is won. Congradulations! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 09, 1998 at 10:07:51 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: bb Subject: bftb Message: Hi Bill Burke- I don't know anything about bftb except that he/she lives in the San Francisco Bay area, and knows a lot about the regional music scene on the West Coast. But I don't think bftb is Anon, or 'different people' because the style of his/her posts is very distinctive (sort of like YOURS), and his/her perspective on the whole thing is very distinctive as well. Thus I think he/she is one real person, not necessarily named Bill (perhaps Rick meant to type 'Biff'?). Regards, Katie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 09, 1998 at 10:18:12 (EST)
From: bftb Email: None To: Katie Subject: bftb Message: Jeez.I'm having so much fun with all the speculation that I probably shouldn't say anything lest I nip anything interesting in the bud.'different people at different times' 'You think he's a woman?'-sounds like one of my sessions with my freudian analyst who I'm sure will enjoy all the comments. Anyway,don't stop because I get a kick out of this. Regards from ? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 09, 1998 at 10:21:54 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: bftb Subject: bftb Message: Well, I'm glad you are not insulted, and I hope my speculations were reasonably correct (you always sound like the same person to me, for example!). Watch out, though, because Bill B. will start thinking you are M if you're not careful. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 09, 1998 at 10:29:46 (EST)
From: bftb Email: None To: Katie Subject: bftb Message: Nah,I'm not insulted at all.I got a kick out of it.fwiw;you've come the closest. Regards from 'I'm so bloody famous that I have to call myself bhiff' :-) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 09, 1998 at 12:38:16 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: bftb Subject: outing bftb? Message: OK, for entertainment purposes ONLY, here is my guess - and believe me, I have been WAY wrong before! I guess that you are male, have children (although they might not live with you), that you live in the same town as Mickey the Pharisee (but are NOT Mickey), and that you actually make a living doing something related to music. (This last guess is WAY out there...on thin ice.) Don't make fun of me if I have it all wrong, please! Several other people on here are convinced that you are female. Regards from Katie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 09, 1998 at 12:58:46 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Katie Subject: To Katie and bftb Message: Katie -- Funny how you get impressions/pictures of people without even realizing it. I would have guessed bftb was female, definitely Bay Area, probably Berkeley/Albany/El Cerrito/Oakland area, with either a career in music, or just very interested in it with a good music collection. If not music, probably a career in the helping professions -- education/medical/social work. Pretty well educated, articulate. If not female, then a male with good communication skills, rates and high on the empathy/altruism scale, is politically very liberal, although probabaly not politically too active. bftb, does any of this fit? And since you are Bay Area, how about lunch? I will treat......such a deal!! JW Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 09, 1998 at 14:29:24 (EST)
From: bftb Email: None To: JW Subject: To Katie and bftb Message: Some fits some doesn't.I'm definately impressed by some of what you wrote.I will tell you that I'm nowhere near as 'educated' as someone like Scott T. and people keep calling me articulate which surprises me because I'm often frustrated by my inability to get things across in words. As for my sex;I am manwoman(actually I believe 'manwoman' is the name of an artist who lives in British Columbia-funky dude).Why does everyone think I'm female?Is it because I am willing to express feelings?Maybe I'm one of these sensitive 90's kinda guys who likes hugging Redwoods. Seriously though, I am flattered,and honored by your invitation but( you knew this was coming dintcha?)as I am still at a point where I wish to remain anonymous,I will have to respectfully decline. Fwiw JW,you seem very cool and very nice and you're one of the several people who post here that I could picture hanging out with. No problem. For now I will remain this cyberspirit. Peace Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 09, 1998 at 15:02:34 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: bftb Subject: To Katie and bftb Message: I think you write very well, and I can be very judgmental when it comes to that. So, that's where the 'articulate' part comes in. It's something I appreciate when people do it well. I've taught a course at SFSU over the years and it frustrates me to no end when educated people can't string two sentences together. I blame the schools and telvision, but sometimes I think it's just laziness. I thought of you as female because you DO express feelings, and also because of your response in the thread about the Southern Baptists and their pronouncement that women should be submissive to their husbands. Probably just stereotypical thinking on my part. Confronting, when I consider myslelf so politically correct. I think it's fine you want to remain anonymous. I know people have all sorts of reasons for that. I think I'm too rambling and say too much to be able to do that for long. I have one question. Did you live in the San Francisco/Oakland premie community in the early 80s? I mean, would I know you if I found out who you are? Not that I would ever attempt to do that! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 09, 1998 at 15:15:34 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: JW Subject: To Katie and bftb Message: JW wrote: I thought of you as female because you DO express feelings, and also because of your response in the thread about the Southern Baptists and their pronouncement that women should be submissive to their husbands. Probably just stereotypical thinking on my part. Confronting, when I consider myslelf so politically correct. I was just thinking about this too, bftb, I think of you as male because I somehow got the idea that you were around 35 or so. Your way of talking AND ability to express your feelings remind me of my male friends who are that age. As you know, most of the other guys on the site are in their 40's and it's been my experience that it's harder for men of that generation to express feelings. (of course, this is a generalization too, just like JW's.) I have no problem with the anon part either, as I hope you know. By the way I am having dinner with JW in two weeks (although not in the Bay Area), so maybe you can have dinner with us in spirit... But before you join us, you should know that JW guessed what I LOOKED LIKE before he'd ever seen a picture of me, so watch out for his latent psychic abilities. Take care, Katie P.S. I also think that you are quite articulate - it surprises me that you think you are not. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 09, 1998 at 17:01:55 (EST)
From: bftb Email: None To: Katie Subject: To Katie and bftb Message: Hey Katie,I just wrote a post to JW where I put to both of you in the 'to' box because I originally thought I'd make it a double response but then decided to do 'em seperately. Thanks for the 'articulate' compliment.Geez what can I say;I have been a little taken aback by all the positive commentary here.It's always interesting to hear how you're perceived and I really never expected the general positiveness of it all.It's nice. O.K. hang on a sec...one minute just let me....open this...and have a look.... and I'll tell ya what I......Oh my!....Yes,I'm male.Definately male. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 09, 1998 at 18:51:33 (EST)
From: Ms. Katie Email: None To: bftb Subject: To Mr. bftb Message: Hey bftb - I am actually more confused than ever, but have decided to take your declaration of sexuality at face (or whatever) value. Thanks for going through the trouble of checking, btw. I have a very good female friend who posts on the Internet as a man, and she lies about it (I can understand why!), so I tend to be suspicious when someone isn't totally out front about it. But my essential gullibility is pretty strong - I even believed Jim's story about being locked in the ashram basement and beaten and interrogated for three days - so I'll believe you too. Take care of you, bftb, Katie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 09, 1998 at 16:50:01 (EST)
From: bftb Email: None To: JW and Katie Subject: To Katie and bftb Message: Well, coming from a part time prof. I'm happy to hear that I make the grade.It's funny because when I post I tend to write much like I would speak.In other words I kind of talk out loud here if you know what I mean.I do however(generally) re-read my posts before submitting them because a)I like to see it as it'll appear on the forum and b)I like to see what I wrote because more often then not it's a kind of stream of consciousness thing. As for your question,no; you and I have never met and I was involved a little later then that so I doubt we'd ever have even seen each other at any M/EV related function. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 09, 1998 at 20:08:16 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: bftb Subject: To Katie and bftb Message: So, bftb, tell us your story. Or at least, did you not receive knowledge until the 80s? Did you miss the whole DLM period? When did you first get involved if it was after the early 80s? Please forgive me, I'm fascinated by people who got involved with BM after he stopped doing what G's Mom refers to as 'the fat naked dancing with the mala.' Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 09, 1998 at 14:08:28 (EST)
From: bftb Email: None To: Katie Subject: outing bftb? Message: I would never seriously make fun of you and besides; you don't have it all wrong anyway. :-)(Don't you hate these 'emoticoms'[thanks jim]) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 09, 1998 at 14:28:12 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: bftb Subject: outing bftb? Message: Well I hope JW and I don't BOTH have it right. I do hate using (not seeing) emoticons, BTW, but sometimes you just have to use them. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 09, 1998 at 10:54:11 (EST)
From: Rick Email: None To: Katie Subject: bftb Message: I did think bftb was Bill Burke. Sorry, Bill. Sorry, bftb. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 18:54:29 (EST)
From: Katie Email: petkat@mail.trib.net To: bftb Subject: Dee Nile Message: Dear bftb, You wrote: Maybe it's wanting to hang on because to completely let go would be painful in a sense.No more Santa?Drag. I walked away because I could no longer continue to rationalise all the nonsense in this organisation.All the while I'd ask myself why M did it this way.I asked that because I still felt(feel)M to be sincere so a lot of how things were done didn't make sense to me. bttb, I have gotten to be quite fond of you through our exchanges on the forum. I don't know any magic words to tell you, but I think you are saying it to yourself in the words I quoted above. Yes, it IS painful to have no more Santa. I stopped believing in M at about age 21, but replaced it with other beliefs which I just recently had to let go of when I was confronted with the truth (I can talk about this via e-mail if you want. I think you probably know what I mean, though!). It hurt a LOT, and it leaves a hole in your life. No denying that. I don't know how someone like M can appear to be so magical and sincere to so many intelligent, kind and sensitive people - people like you. I think it's because people really WANT someone like M to be real, and maybe because M really believes it himself. If you read KK's postings, and then compare them about some of the things that op (just for an example) posted, it's amazing. The guy has got some kind of charisma, but it's just not rock-bottom real - I think it's borrowed. I, of course, am not sure who he's borrowing it from, and I can't give anyone anything to replace it, either. Take care, bftb. Keep on posting, whatever you decide, or don't decide. Love, Katie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jul 08, 1998 at 12:47:15 (EST)
From: bftb Email: None To: Katie Subject: Dee Nile Message: I love you too Katie.You're the coolest!So F'n sweet it's unbelievable.You are too good to be true but I know you are. I nominate you lord.You don't want the job though do you? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jul 08, 1998 at 13:23:17 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: bftb Subject: I'm blushing Message: Not kidding. It's hard for me to take compliments, but thanks so much, bftb. You are really nice to me, you know that? I hope things are working out for you. Thanks again from Katie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 20:22:12 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: bftb Subject: Dee Nile Message: Dear bftb, I have grown fond of you also just by reading your posts here and in the archives. I remember reading a post from you, I believe that said you still have many premie friends. I'm not saying to get away from them, not at all but I wonder if that is why you hold on to a lingering hope/belief in BM? If that may have something to do with it it is probably helpful even just to keep that in mind, you may have to exercise your brain more to keep it working for you, you know what I mean? Feel like I wasn't very clear so please ask me to explain again if you need to. Love, Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jul 08, 1998 at 12:50:15 (EST)
From: bftb Email: None To: Robyn Subject: Dee Nile Message: You were clear.think I got it. Not my friends who keep the M's sincere feeling going.It's my memory of certain experiences around him.And my feeling that whether delusional or not:that HE believes. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jul 08, 1998 at 00:51:50 (EST)
From: Gail Email: Freedom@gtn.net To: bftb Subject: Dee Nile Message: I know what you mean. I have been shlepping (I love that word) the web papers around to other folks in town. One other guy is really interested. We listened to old tapes from '74. MJ and his wife sounded really sincere. My friend and I were crying (no more Santa Claus). Then we watched a slick up-to-date intro video. What a difference. Most of us fell in love with the idea of this little guy being the lord. He believed he was the lord (I think), so we did, too. If he is the lord, why doesn't he help us all out by appearing at our respective houses. This is a small feat for the 'SUPERIOR POWER IN PERSON.' I mean, his love is unconditional, isn't it? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jul 08, 1998 at 01:44:22 (EST)
From: Judex Email: None To: Gail Subject: Dee Nile Message: If he is the lord, why doesn't he help us all out by appearing at our respective houses. This is a small feat for the 'SUPERIOR POWER IN PERSON.' I mean, his love is unconditional, isn't it? Gail, I heard him say something like turning a frog into a dove is not a miracle, the only real miracle is life itself & breath (words to that effect). So he doesn't consider what you consider to be a miracle, to be a miracle. So he will never manifest your miracle. Does that make what you believe less valid? Or could that lead you to not require him to be your miracle-maker any longer? Perhaps you are the one with the capacity to be unconditional. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jul 08, 1998 at 01:52:01 (EST)
From: Gail Email: None To: Judex Subject: MJ Fairy Tales Anyone? Message: He used to talk about showing up at your house at ANY TIME. 'You open the door and there is MJ. He hands you your milk.' He also talked about Krishna manifesting himself many times for each Gopi. Many fairy tales used to circulate in the old days. Instructors used to tell all sorts of stories. People living on nectar. People living without breathing after MJ covered them with sand. Many more stories of nonsense were told. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jul 08, 1998 at 01:59:45 (EST)
From: Judex Email: None To: Gail Subject: MJ Fairy Tales Anyone? Message: Thanks for telling me about that. I had not idea. All I've ever heard is softly spoken justifications directed at the right ears - eg 'I will never come to your house. I don't know your name but you know mine.' etc BTW, thanks for the sharing you are doing. I hope it is helping you, it is certainly good to hear your thoughts. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jul 08, 1998 at 05:06:01 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Gail Subject: Brian read, re: gopies Message: Dear Gail, Sorry to cut into this discussion but Brian has a few gopies, you can be one too :) here and I thought he'd like to know what we will now be expecting of him! Dear Brian, He also talked about Krishna manifesting himself many times for each Gopi. Just something to keep you busy in your spare time! Love, Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jul 08, 1998 at 08:02:08 (EST)
From: Judex Email: None To: Robyn Subject: Brian read, re: gopies Message: Okay I give up / surrender depending on which version will get me an answer: what is a gopi? Not a kind of small fish? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jul 08, 1998 at 08:12:34 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: Judex Subject: The truth about gopis Message: I am doing this from memory, Judex, so anyone can correct me. Krishna used to play his flute in the countryside where there were many milkmaids (and their cows, I assume). The milkmaids were called gopis and they were all drawn to the sound of the flute, and of course, fell in love with Krishna as soon as they saw him. They all became his devoted followers, and he did manifest himself many times - once for each gopi - so he could make love to them. (He was also married to Radha but I can't remember if she was originally a gopi or not). Anyway, very devotional (bhakti) followers of M used to consider themselves to be gopis of M. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jul 08, 1998 at 08:22:19 (EST)
From: Judex Email: None To: Katie Subject: The truth about gopis Message: You mean they thought he would manifest to them if they went on a picnic? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jul 08, 1998 at 10:01:19 (EST)
From: RT Email: the NEW GOPIS of .ORG To: Brian and all Subject: The God Spell Accordian to.. Message: THE GOD SPELL ACCORDIAN TO MUSAK Lo, it was the last years of the Millenium, and Saint Brian, the Perfect Webmaster of his time,did have many followers, to whom he manifested himself in thought, word and thread. And it came to pass that the Webmaster had legions of people who were regarded as wise, 'ex-premies' of the BoOHOo of the Kali Yuga. And lo, Brian did Timely Post: ' Ye have been gopis of the HAHARAJI but now I say onto you, stay awhile and rest in our Web Page. And lo, the Web Page was good. And many were relieved of their confusions, doubts, and anger. And so, Brian the Perfect Webmaster said: Ye will now click the screens in calm and with power on.... ...therefore I call ye all 'GO-PEACE' of the .Org' For ye shall bring others to JUST SAY KNOW and they shall inturn become 'GO-PEACE'. For ye have peace of heart in doing the right thing, which is nobler and superior to peace of mind in a cult.' Thus we have heard. RT Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jul 08, 1998 at 12:04:27 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: RT Subject: The God Spell Accordian to.. Message: DearRT, COOL! Love that story! Love, Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 09, 1998 at 00:00:31 (EST)
From: Judex Email: None To: RT Subject: The God Spell Accordian to.. Message: cool Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jul 08, 1998 at 12:54:01 (EST)
From: bftb Email: None To: Gail Subject: Dee Nile Message: This is interesting because I've often thought that if he's the real deal then why wouldn't he blast us all with a dose of grace?Don't you help people out more when they've fallen then when they're standing up? Not that I think we've fallen but you know what I mean.I hope. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jul 08, 1998 at 22:44:13 (EST)
From: Rick Email: None To: bftb Subject: Dee Nile Message: Bill, That's just it, isn't it. The reason BM doesn't perform any miracles, or even good magic tricks, is that he CAN'T! Got to give him credit, though, for coming up with that bullshit about the REAL miracle being life itself, and 'knowledge' being the magic. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jul 08, 1998 at 09:32:50 (EST)
From: Richard Email: None To: bftb Subject: No more Santa... Message: Dear bftb, many years ago, some time after the last vestiges of the WPC had withered on the vine, I lived alone with little or no premie contact but still meditating. I couldn't bring myself to go to programs or festivals (like one of the crowd) but missed the feeling of inclusion like hell. Although I had dedicated every ounce of my life to Maharaji in real terms, I felt that, somehow, my pain was caused by a lack of submission of my self. Too much super-service-premie arrogance or whatever. Some premie friends suggested that I go, with them, to the next festival in Rome (can't remember the year). I recall arriving at the Palazzo delo Sport and sitting myself quietly at the back of the top tier, half hiding behind a large pillar. I sat there all day as premie after premie came up on stage and gave satsang, my heart filling up with the effects of the narcotic which I had been denying myself during my period in the wilderness. When Maharaji finally came on stage in the evening (I hadn't eaten or been to the toilet for some ten hours) I completely blanked. I sat there in a state of euphoria, seeing light everywhere and with tears cascading down my cheeks. I have no recall of anything he said nor of any people who may have sat near me. Nor can I remember leaving the building and returning to my pensione. My next memory is of sitting on the bed in my rented room and meditating on breath. Suddenly I had what can only be described as a vision. I was kneeling down before a seated Maharaji begging him (speechlessly) to take me. He told me to surrender. Then I was at the top of a very tall building, Maharaji was telling me to jump and that he would catch me. I said that I couldn't and he said 'Trust me, I will catch you.' So I did and he did. The next thing I was aware of was of waking up in the morning, still fully clothed, sprawled across my bed. After this revelation I went back into the machine full-time, but the machine was called something else now and there were new honchos at the top. What followed was a fairly typical reintegration of the prodigal son routine. I had my pick of service assignments, was considered reliable and received invitations to give satsang etc. and the bullshit continued apace. But this revelation/vision episode was key for me. No matter what else happened, Maharaji had come to me personally and had taken part in my surrender process. How could I possibly ever reject him after he had 'appeared' to me. The fact is that this vision was, in fact, a psychotic episode brought on by liberal doses of deprivation and bedded down psychologically by the whole culture of fear and dependency. Letting go of Maharaji as my personal saviour is the hardest thing that I have ever done. Allowing it to happen in the first place is the most stupid and irresponsible but, at the same time, the most understandable thing in the world. Wanting to love someone like that (and be loved in return) is an indication of our humanity and our vulnerability. It is a measure of the very precious and fragile nature of our conciousness and the state of our being. I don't know if there is a god but I know that I am. I don't know if feeling like this is good but I know that part of me does. Maharaji simply insinuated himself into that part of me which is capable of, and maybe even desires, spiritual love. Perhaps simply because nobody else did. But that does not make him true. Rejecting Maharaji hurts but it has no after effects and it does not change who you are. Thanks for reminder bftb and take care. regards Richard Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jul 08, 1998 at 12:07:45 (EST)
From: Rick Email: None To: Richard Subject: No more Santa... Message: Well put, Richard. Thanks for that. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jul 08, 1998 at 14:34:52 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Richard Subject: No more Santa... Message: Dear Richard, Me too! I just get so emotional when I see a post like yours here and know you guys don't need all this emotion all the time so I tried to hold back but oh well, I don't have much will power! Love, Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jul 08, 1998 at 12:30:32 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Richard Subject: No more Santa... Message: Richard, That was really well said. Would you care to join the CDCP? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 09, 1998 at 09:58:32 (EST)
From: Richard Email: r2harris@plymouth.ac.uk To: Jim Subject: CDCP???????????? Message: Jim, I've seen you mention this a few times now but I havn't kept up on the site acronyms. Is is a private joke? regards Richard Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 09, 1998 at 12:50:50 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Richard Subject: CDCP................? Message: Richard, The CDCP is the Chris Dickey Communciation Project, inspired by some of the work John Lilly did with dolphins in the 70s and early 80s. Out goal is to establish communication with the guy, maybe got for a coke afterwards or something. Gerry actually had an encounter with him but that was before we got our inital funding so it doesn't count. Besides, it's not clear what, if any, communication took place. If you'd like to get involved, just let Chris himself know. Go ahead, take a shot at it. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jul 08, 1998 at 13:12:47 (EST)
From: bftb Email: None To: Richard Subject: No more Santa... Message: Thank-YOU. You really touched a nerve with me here.See;I've had M visions.They are the only thing that keeps my fraud doubt alive.That coupled with what I believe to be M's belief that it's all real.I can't or don't yet see him as someone consciously manipulating victims.More like he's as much a victim as anyone else in this thing.(if 'victim' is the operative word that is) I agree with you that there's a part of us that wants/needs spiritual love.Who the hell wouldn't want to be happy.The dangling carrott of feeling that permanent happiness inside is very appealing indeed.Happiness is a product that everyone wants,big market for it. Thanks for sharing and I'm glad that you're feeling well and adjusted even after lifting the curtain on the great OZ.Encouraging. Take care. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jul 08, 1998 at 13:28:14 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: Richard Subject: No more Santa... Message: Richard, Wow! Thank you for the amazing story. I am astounded that you had the courage to leave M after having that experience - most people would have been lifers in devotion to M after that. You are a very strong and brave person. Take care of yourself, Katie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jul 08, 1998 at 19:09:43 (EST)
From: Mark Email: None To: Rick Subject: No more Santa... Message: Yeah the vision thing is Very hard to walk away from I had many that I assumed were the real 'Master' coming to me. Later on spending some time w/M , I saw that he was pretty unconcsious and manipulative . It didn't jive with the vision guy. Also people have had visions of me on occasion, which of course had me question the whole process -cause I wasn't there. Simply put, I think that we (along with a very plastic Universe)manufacture what we need to package experience, . I think M's thing is so hollow-graphic(holographic) in nature, so devoid of any true communication feeling or nourishment, that people going into the devotional tunnel for any genuine reason need to get some sort of energetic match. So my take is that visions are sort of 'wet dreams' allowing us to discharge(not trying to be too porno-graphic here) emotion that must be responded to, and that there is some 'higher 'self/highest self/ metaself giving us what we needed at the time. Richard we needed to have whatever visions we needed of M at that time. However, no more stand-ins are needed. And in fact you as an individual are a heck of a lot more advanced than your old 'master' is. So its like seeing some woman or man that you adored in High School, and saying what did I ever see in Him . . . ( a stand-in for ourselves,actually) Here's something that happened to me 2 years ago. I went to see 'Twister' at the Agoura Theatre with my wife at a 4 PM show (cheaper prices) and as we got to the ticket taker I picked up Darshan energy and told my wife M was at one of the 8 Theatres. Turned out he was -in ours- and I sat there a row behind him for a few hours, and had a chance to examine things a bit. Now I was out of believing he was lord of it all, but I saw that I had thru decades of devotional fawning and programming, located this guy's frequency in the universe , and my body got off on it & on being around him. The difference was I saw he (rawat) was completely unconscious of the dynamic happening with him.15 years before I would have bet my life he knew I was there , arranged it, etc. I had invested my Lord Of All energy into his spiritual bankbook so I got to take a withdrawl that day(actually it was my graduation Day from him). He was just a guy with his wife and valet catching a pretty Wild Movie. And the brief royal exchange afterward was similarly low voltage.Yet I had a great experience. However I've noticed as I've gotten my own existence back the charge I used to feel around people locations events related to Knowledge and M have dropped to normalcy. I guess what I'm saying is that we all accepted the Great Belief System of the 'Lord ', and then our wonderful consciousness manufacturing machines go to work giving us the Santa we requested, to the best of their ability. Visions come from us. Well let me amend that. If Someone can confirm to you what you saw, and said they projected that to you, that might be worth scrutinizing. But this guy ain't that guy ! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jul 08, 1998 at 23:27:53 (EST)
From: TD Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Visions International... Message: Wow, what great visions and subsequent analysis of them! Actually it would probably be a great idea to do a whole thread on all the cosmic coincidences that have occurred in relation to M - that we know about and that either happened to ourselves or to other premies. I had a different kind of 'experience', but it didn't reveal to me that M was The Dude. On the contrary, it revealed to me that M was The Deceiver... Ha-ha. Regards, The Defector Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 09, 1998 at 01:27:02 (EST)
From: bb Email: None To: Richard Subject: No more Santa... Message: thanks for the analysis of the 'vision' experiences. It is helpful because I had my share also. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jul 08, 1998 at 11:55:50 (EST)
From: bftb Email: None To: everyone Subject: Dee Nile Message: I always knew that the sort of person who is ever attracted to M/K is usually nice.You guys have shown me that again.Got to say I've been kind of moved by the responses here.Much food for thought and I'm still digesting. See,this is what's so great about this site;real people and real feedback and communication.Why couldn't we be open like this as premies?I always found that frustrating-even in my most devoted days it was frustrating the way premies would self censor.They'd discuss anything but doubts.If I brought up money issues they either didn't know,didn't care or didn't want to know.Anyway,it's healthy to discuss doubts.If it's all real then why can't any and all topics related to M/K/EV be broached?Talking is healthy and how could it ever be bad? Your feedback helps a lot.Thanks to you all for your honesty and palpable love. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 14:57:37 (EST)
From: Andrew Email: nightlight@dial.pipex.com To: Everyone Subject: Experiences of a non-premie... Message: Hello, I am a free-thinking non-premie who happens to have a lot of premie friends, and wanted to share some of my observations with you. I was first introduced to the premie organisation by a very close friend that I met six years ago. She ended up introducing me to other premies and now I know quite a few and some of them occasionally stay in my apartment when there are London programs. I have even travelled over to Long Beach, CA, for a program (more for a holiday than to specifically hear Maharaji), and listen to Maharaji tapes occasionally because I think he is a good speaker. However, as a free thinker who has and would never feel comfortable following a master, I have never received knowledge and never intend to (despite being regularly encouraged to my some of my premie friends). However, I have to say that all the premies that I have met here in London and elsewhere have been very kind and sincere people. In fact, I would go so far as to say that they have a quality not present in non-premie people, unless of course those non-premie mediate a lot. As a meditator (standard - not Knowledge) I have had some great discussions with premies about life etc., although I occasionally get the feeling that I am hearing Maharaji regurgitated (but not always). Questions that I have raised to premies include: Why does Maharaji life such an unnecessarily opulent lifestyle using donated money, rather than giving it to people who needed it more than he does? (The answer that I usually get from premies is that Maharaji's family is very wealthy in their own right.) Why does Maharaji preach free-thinking and following ones own path etc. while firmly entrenched in a guru-disciple framework? (The answer I get from this one is that even Maharaji knows this is all bullshit which is why he closed down all the Ashrams outside India... he plays the guru for those who need one.) Why are the techniques not freely available? (Because they are such a precious free gift that to make sure they are taught correctly, an expert must do the honor.) While I am not completely happy with the answers given above, I always remember talking to a seasoned premie at Long Beach who told me, when I expressed my guru misgivings, to get the techniques and walk away from the bullshit. Again, I was struck my the sincerety of the advice. My feelings are that most of the problem premies are probably high up in Maraji's organisation where they exercise power. As for me, I will continue to cherish my premie friends, always a little curious at their spontaneous relapses into worship and adoration. Maraji, for me, is a man unfortunately stuck in the guru-framework of his Indian roots while trying to embrace, as best he can, an almost zen-like approach to meditative teachings. This never quite works because of the inherent contradictions in these systems of belief - contradictions which Maraji is, I believe, well aware of. Andrew Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 15:24:17 (EST)
From: x Email: None To: Andrew Subject: Trust your instincts ! Message: Andrew, My opinion: You are approaching a spider web, with Maharaji, the spider waiting for you in the center. Be cautious, lot's of curious freethinkers, like you, have been ensnared by the 1000's already. Be careful to be aware of the subtle peer pressure of your 'friends' to join them. I encourage you to read more about these issues, before you even contemplate going any further. I know this sounds kind of extreme, but this is a big deal. Ask some of the people here. Oh I guess you already have.Remember, Trust your first instincts!!They're usually right. Sincerely x Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 16:00:06 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: x Subject: Premies are great ! Message: Hey, Andrew! I remember feeling like you. Premies were fun and carefree and full of life. (Then I got to REALLY know some of them...just kidding.) This is what drew me to this cult: the insiduous stuff that I heard premies say, their lifestyle, their sincerity and their heart. I wanted to be like that. I still do, but I realize that I can be without Maharaji. My advice to you is to be careful. The pressure to receive knowledge can be intense and there is more motivating a lot of these people (not all, I am sure) than a sincere wish to give you something great. Maharaji needs followers, money. And of course there is the feeling that they want to make you part of their 'club'. None of these are completely unselfish motives. I still love the people in my life who have knowledge, but I feel that I have even more knowledge than they do about M and K at this point. (K is the bait and devotion is the switch). They aren't a threat to me anymore and now I can just enjoy them for who they are. I also feel a bit sorry for them. Best of luck to you, Andrew. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 16:07:48 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Andrew Subject: Experiences of a non-premie... Message: Andrew, Knowledge is bogus. There is no Knowledge. Just a random grab bag of old Hindu meditation techniques to forget about the world. Is that a neat thing? Yeah, maybe so, if you've got the time for it? Does it fuck up other aspects of your mental preparedness for life? Probably, if you rely on it overmuch. How much is 'overmuch'? Beats me, I'm no guru. Why not ask Maharaji? (Just kidding). Premies are constantly trying to impress you with their 'improved' personalities. Constantly. Don't fool yourself. Mind you, if self-effacing, extraordinarly, life-limiting excessive humility mixed with a quiet smugness and unapproachable pride, all blathered in eastern-style, new age fatalism appeals to you, yes premies are a little 'better' than the general population. So were Heaven's Gaters by the way. Too bad we've lost so many. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 16:44:07 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Andrew Subject: Experiences of a non-premie... Message: Andrew: If you want the techniques but not the rigmarole they are published on this website with no strings attached. They have been widely practiced by many people other than premies for a long time. -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jul 08, 1998 at 02:36:45 (EST)
From: Andrew Email: nightlight@dial.pipex.com To: Andrew Subject: Thank you for the feedback Message: Thanks everyone for giving me useful feedback. I posted this message when I first stumbled upon this site yesterday (God knows why I never did a search on Maharaji before). Since then I have read most of the contents of this site and, of course, your feedback, and I can certainly say that it has been an enlightening experience. To have the techniques described here without having to go through the guru bullshit is, dare I say, a fantastic gift. Thanks again, Andrew. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jul 08, 1998 at 03:07:36 (EST)
From: Barney Email: None To: Andrew Subject: Thank you for the feedback Message: First, I should say that in the following I go a bit off on premies, but I'm generalizing and stereotyping to make my angry point. Second, I certainly don't wish to disparage your premie friends since I certainly don't know them and I actually like premies and x-premies. We all have had one heck of an experience in common and we are all bound through that in some way, good or bad. Sure, some premies (spellchecker suggests: preemies) are really nice, sweet caring people, etc. Yet, I think that (some) premies are also the most self-centered, selfish people as well. And I've seen that type of statement many times on the forum. However, I always found that premies living under the premie-group-think are really a bunch of lamers (sp: llamas) living lame and dull lame lives where they too afraid to embrace an activity or hobby unless it is something MJ has spoke of and has publicly endorsed (i.e. high tech gizmos.) Oh, I don't want to offend anyone here in case that description might fit or once fit. Ironically, one might believe that becoming a premie takes a certain amount of adventuresome spirit and courage. Although, one might also consider that once you've really gone through the ringer and become a real premie that you have become rather worm-like and subscribe to the company line quite religiously. For example, the Darshan (sp: Dracaena) fainting thread below. What a group mind trip. Even telling your premie buddies that you aren't gonna spend all your money done to nothing to attend every festival gets to be difficult - peer pressure supreme. I'll never forget the recent Long Beach event(I think) when MJ pooh-poohed the Internet and all the premies and even myself let out this little snicker of arrogant agreement. Sure the WWW is full of shit and it ain't gonna save the world, but it's better than TV. It's just another home appliance like TV, radio, or telephone or even electric light. But, if you're a premie you'd better wait for MJ to change his mind about it or you're gonna have a difficult time you accidently enter the topic into conversation. They'll look at you and try to suppress their uncomfortable feeling. It might take you a while to realize what's going on, but by that time they labelled you as a Bongo. You might as well tell them that you kill babies for kicks. And I'm not talking just about the Internet. It could be anything that is considered off limits. And, worse is when you find yourself judging others for partaking in off limit activities because your thinking has done a flip-flop and you're riding a big spiritual wave and the waves come in sets and everybody is out there riding on them. Yeah, great bunch of people! Freethinkers, all. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 09, 1998 at 00:12:13 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: Andrew Subject: Techniques for free Message: Andrew, What will your friends think? (snicker) answer#1 You really DON'T have the techniques. (I hear that a lot.) answer#2 You can't experience them without M, a living master. (Bullshit, by the way.) answer#3 (Your friends won't tell you this one) Knowledge techniques are the bait for a bait and switch program. Devotion to M is the thing you cannot get off of this site. You are now a virtual premie. Enjoy!(or not) Keep in touch!(or not) VP Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jul 08, 1998 at 10:01:13 (EST)
From: Richard Email: None To: Andrew Subject: Walk carefully Message: Hi Andrew, it's good to have a non-aligned post for a change. I was impressed by your ability to ask relevant questions but think carefully about some of the answers. I always remember talking to a seasoned premie at Long Beach who told me, when I expressed my guru misgivings, to get the techniques and walk away from the bullshit. It was obviously easier for him to say than it was for him to do. As an unaffected outsider you should look at the posts on this site and think about which of us is finally done with the guru thing and which are still going through some kind of cold turkey. After 26 years I don't know if I can exclude myself from this latter category. Then think about whether or not you want to mess with this stuff. regards Richard Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 14:21:34 (EST)
From: JW Email: joger02@aol.com To: Everyone Subject: KKs Comments Re Devotion Message: I wanted to bring something KK said about how Maharaji appeals these days for MONEY, which, as we all know, is the major focus of his organization. KK said: ...Let me say they [the initiators] were out there, trying to be perfect in all their imperfection and I know MJ just didn't know what to do with 75% of them because they were not the greatest at making money. Their way of getting money was to prevail on the devotional side, he [MJ] was trying to get away from the clinging devotees and they were encouraging everybody into that Hinduisation because that was their comfort zone. He wanted most of them gone. I know this for a fact including the ones who to this day are probably right in his inner circle... KK, If MJ didn't want to appeal to the 'devotional side' to get money, what did he want to appeal to? I would assume that the 'devotional side' was the most lucrative. That's sure what WE appealled to when we were raising millions for the Boeing 707 in the early 80s. Of course that's when we LIED to the premies about the plane -- we told them it was a world tour, instead. And if he isn't into the 'devotional side' that the initiators are into, why is he starting to give darshan again in the west, like he has a couple of times in Australia recently, and why are the premies singing those super-devotional songs to him at programs, the very same ones we were singing to him in the 70s? I even heard that arti and 'The Lord of the Universe' are being played in instrumental forms at programs. Any ideas? Do you think he has given up on trying to de-link himself from the devotional 'I am god' stuff because he is desperate for money and figures, what the hell, he will try the deity thing again? That would be my take on it, but I would love to hear your views. Also, what did BM ever say about his reasons, which seemed very abrupt to say the least, for closing the ashrams and throwing a bunch of his staunchest devotees out in the streets? Especially after he had scared the shit out of most of us for years prior to that for even thinking about ever leaving the ashram? And what was the REAL reason? Was that about MONEY too? Finally, speaking of all the desperate desire to raise MONEY that you talk about, didn't Maharaji have investments of some of the millions raised for him in the 70s? Doesn't he have lots of money stowed away somewhere? And, if so, why the big need to always rais more MONEY? Thanks so much for your comments. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 16:42:07 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: JW Subject: KK: THE ABOVE IS FOR YOU Message: And also for anyone else who can help answer those questions. Thanks. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 18:55:59 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: JW Subject: Plans for future! Message: M wants to buy more lands, to have his private darshans far from lurkers. He wants a faster and bigger plane he NEEDS a new yacht his operations' costs are HUGE his children are adults, and if they have the same kind of needs.... Can you imagine, just a few thousands of devotees in western countries paying for all this? The pressure HAS to be huge!!! My feeling is that most premies are tired of these fundraisings. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 19:07:28 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: Money To Spread Knowledge Message: Yes, JM there are those NEEDS that the Big M has. Recently, we heard John Miller was out looking for a new yacht for the Big M in the $2-4 million range; Someone else posted that he was personally asked to try to find the Big M a vintage 1959 Cadillac Convertable that he wanted; I think the same person quoted a satsang the Big M gave in which he bragged about his large watch collection and also said the Big M had ONE watch worth $30,000,[ more than many people earn in and entire year!] Now we all know these items are absolutely essential to spread this knowledge to the needy people of the world. So, premies, give that money, it's all needed for propogation, you know! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 21:27:13 (EST)
From: RT Email: no To: JW/J-M Subject: Money for Nothingness Message: Well, there was a pink '57 caddy that was completely restored at DECA in 1980. I did serve-us on it. I remember rubbing undercarriage components with 500 grit wetpaper so each piece would be perfect. It was indeed all over the shop, in a roped off area. You needed permission to touch to holy exhaust. So, Mr. Rawat, WHERE is that Car now? We did give it to you. Did you take care to keep it in mint condition? They even had a song sung in Miami around then at the GURU PUJA's. It must be worth a fortune..easliy 30K: Completely stripped, cleaned, repaired, sprayed and re-upholstered. I can say from experience that all those skills were available and utilized for the fatguru. If UNICEF had this devotion a lot of children would be happier. A future web string, as this one is filling up nicely, would be about DECA, the industrial darshan work you to death factory. Anyone remember: Design Engineering Corporation of America? I do. RT Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jul 08, 1998 at 01:42:04 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: RT Subject: Money for Nothingness Message: Oh yes, DECA. I also worked there for awhile, in the legal department, no less. What a weird place! There already have been threads about DECA on the forum over the past months, but PLEASE start another one and tell us what you know. I'll chime in with what I recall. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jul 08, 1998 at 12:13:19 (EST)
From: RT Email: deca.dud To: JW Subject: J-M web page has DECA Message: See J-M's request. At DECA I did engineering / assist: drafting/illustration. I have a lot of memories so I should start a journal off line. Hi fives to you, let's go to the cuban diner and get rice 'n beans! RT Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jul 08, 1998 at 20:24:07 (EST)
From: Mark Email: None To: RT Subject: J-M web page has DECA Message: Deca was recently sold for $63 MM to a private co. supposedly I was told this by some one in Miami Supposedly Roger Cook is the principal Think M might give him a special Darshan line of his own ? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 09, 1998 at 03:15:40 (EST)
From: bb Email: None To: Mark Subject: DECA dollars Message: The figure seems high to me because they made those elephant chairs and did some plane work on contract but I know of no product or service that would warrent a price of 63 million. 6.3 million? Even that. If he did get 63 million that is a disaster for honesty on earth. A fully funded fake god is a nightmare scenario. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 09, 1998 at 04:52:18 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Mark Subject: NSA also sold Message: I also heard that P. Ushida sold his shares and resigned from NSA board. For how much? Maybe that's what's allowing Mr Rawat to buy his new yacht? Lots of paranoia around Deca, NSA and Amtext. There are rumors amongst premies that these businesses are connected to maffia, and some other fairy tales! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jul 08, 1998 at 04:40:06 (EST)
From: KK Email: None To: JW Subject: KKs Comments Re Devotion Message: Hi JW I can't answer your questions precisely because I never felt as though it was logically thought out by MJ along those lines. I'm surprised about the contemporary devotion phase. I felt that he didn't like the way the 'mahatmas' encouraged what I now think he'd have called unproductive devotion. When the ashrams closed first in 1976, then in mid-1980s, it was because they got right out of control and the responsibility of so many people's lives - physical, financial etc - freaked MJ out. That doesn't mean he was prepared to throw the baby out with the bath water. He wanted MONEY, not people's lives. Thus he started to move away from the devotional phase which led to a more clinical treatment of the 4 techniques etc. At that time, you may recall that a lot of mahatmas/initiators got the boot and others were appointed who were more worldy, i.e. married, no ashramic background (e.g. Sally Galway, wife of tennis playing Tim Galwey). Australia has always been a little different, somewhere in between India and the States because its history has been characterised by mahatmas, namely Padarthanand and Gurucharanand, and its isolation has encouraged contained experimentation. Getting back to the ashrams, I felt that MJ kept them because they were part of his Hindu-based package and he hadn't thought them through fully in the West. Also it was early premies who set them up, kept the ethos alive and in the early early days MJ used to actually stay in them when he toured at times. That certainly happened in Australia in 1972. Pragmatism has always dictated his position on things. Yet I found him to be ad hoc at times. 'Let's do x' without a huge amount of thought. His advisers did a hell of a lot more mental kilometers. The money raising is constant because there is no end to his wants, needs and greed. There will never be enough. He puts himself on the level of Onassis etc for want of a better example. Think about it, JW, what he chooses to get involved in takes a lot of money. About a secret stash, Switzerland figured prominently as I recall - numerous Swiss bank accounts. I personally transacted large amounts of money through them regularly, such as big donations from single indivdiuals and Darshan lines. Remember Darshan lines are very lucrative, never less than AUD$75000 in my experiences. The other thing is that MJ is always confused about his Indian identity in the West. He swings towards fulfilling the Indian trip at times and fluctuates in his attire etc to live it out. Be careful about assuming it's all worked out logically. I've never had that impression. Hey, I'm not an expert on these things. 'Just a humble ex-premie' thank God. Talk to you again sometime, I'm sure. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jul 08, 1998 at 14:42:24 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: KK Subject: KKs Comments Re Devotion Message: KK, Thanks for your opinions on my questions. I had assumed there was no real thought-out 'plan,' but rather arbitrary courses that MJ took. Seems like he has the attention span of a child. This really makes me angry. I was someone who spent 8 years celibate and poverty-stricken in his ashram, really believing he had them for my benefit and I was lucky to be there. That his decisions about the lives of so many people who loved him were so cavalier, uncaring and arbitrary, makes him even more dispicable, in my eyes, than if he actually thought out the effects his decisions might have on his devotees. Was there ever any public statement about why the ashrams were closed? Do you agree, that in the end, he has never really given a shit about his devotees, except to the extent he got money out of them? I don't know why this realization still gets to me, I guess because I really loved MJ, I keep hoping in the back of my brain somewhere, that I actually will find out that at least some of my love for him was justified, that he has at least SOME shread of integrity. Must say, it hasn't happened yet. It's so clear the love was all one way. When the ashrams closed first in 1976, then in mid-1980s, it was because they got right out of control and the responsibility of so many people's lives - physical, financial etc - freaked MJ out. That doesn't mean he was prepared to throw the baby out with the bath water. He wanted MONEY, not people's lives. This just BURNS me. The fact is he HAD responsbility for the ashram residents, thousands of them, who gave him everything and trashed their lives in the process. In the US, only SOME of the ashrams closed in 1976. Most stayed open. Also, after 1976, MJ and his initiators, did an all-out effort to get every available premie into the ashram. Hundreds, if not thousands, moved in between 1977 and about 1980. Many couples broke up so one or both could move in. Children were abandoned. During this time he held ashram meetings at programs and impressed on us that the ashram was essential to his mission, was a wonderful gift, and that only an idiot would ever leave it, and that if you did, your life would be hell. [He said this, at least in so many words, as repeated and amplified by the initiators.] So, for him to do all that, and then chuck it because the responsibility freaked him out is just reprehensible. I basically threw my 20s away in the ashram, and he just chucked it all based on some financial whim and never even once, taking any resonsibility for what happened. He should be persecuted for this:). This is further exemplified by what you said: Pragmatism has always dictated his position on things. Yet I found him to be ad hoc at times. 'Let's do x' without a huge amount of thought. What a slime ball! You also said: At that time, you may recall that a lot of mahatmas/initiators got the boot and others were appointed who were more worldy, i.e. married, no ashramic background(e.g. Sally Galway, wife of tennis playing Tim Galwey). I think this happened shortly after I left in 1983, so I didn't see this. Australia has always been a little different, somewhere in between India and the States because its history has been characterised by mahatmas, namely Padarthanand and Gurucharanand, and its isolation has encouraged contained experimentation. Interesting. I think the States were affected by the fact the MJ was here so much of the time. The big projects like the plane conversion happened here, IHQ was here, there were residences here, there were lots of programs here, and there were so many premies. Plus, I think the States were always his major source of fundraising. I think it's interesting that there appear to have been on the forum, quite a few Australians who are outspoken about MJ, both pro and con. Much more than other countries, given the relatively small population in Australia compared to the States and Europe. Any opinion why that is? Getting back to the ashrams, I felt that MJ kept them because they were part of his Hindu-based package and he hadn't thought them through fully in the West. Also it was early premies who set them up, kept the ethos alive and in the early early days MJ used to actually stay in them when he toured at times. That certainly happened in Australia in 1972. Early premies may have set up the ashrams, but I disagree in the sense that MJ was heavily involved in encouraging the ashrams and having the initiators and coordinators institute things having to do with the ashrams as late as 1981 at least, just a couple of years before they closed in 1983. I don't think he took any personal interest in the people who were IN them, although the intiators were chosen from that group, but he was defintetly INTO them, and lots of people made very damaging choices about their lives because he did that. At least this was true in the States and Canada. About a secret stash, Switzerland figured prominently as I recall - numerous Swiss bank accounts. I personally transacted large amounts of money through them regularly, such as big donations from single indivdiuals and Darshan lines.\ Mr. Ex talked about the Switzerland connection too. I wonder if the premies who donate know that he has such a 'stash.' Speaking of darshan and the fundraising done through them, when I was community coordinator in Miami in the late 70s and early 80s, I was told that a darshan line at a big program in Miami could net $250,000 (US) in cash. The reason I know this, is because when we were fundraising for the 707, MJ was SO into it that he actually offered some of the proceeds from a darshan line to help fund the project and the quarter million figure was what was used. I don't think he actually turned over any money, however. During this period he was having programs and giving darshan like crazy (at least 4 times per year in the States alone) in Miami, likely to raise money. Thanks again. JW Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jul 08, 1998 at 21:15:44 (EST)
From: TD Email: None To: KK, JW, Jim et al Subject: Another Money Perspective Message: I thought I'd just add my two cents worth to this discussion, because I feel that the money raising situation for EV in Australia has possibly changed tack, and based on your previous posts, I now wonder if it is part of an overall shift in strategy for M. Why I say this, is that in recent years, there seems to have been this obvious refocus in Oz of direct contributions to EV to that of contributions to Amaroo. At many video events there is usually a separate table for donations/direct debit forms to go towards Amaroo, and Yoram Weiss does the nation-wide tour to show slides of all the recent developments at Amaroo, and he emphasises the need for continuing funds for that development. I tend to think someone somewhere has cottoned on to the fact that premies in Oz/NZ will more likely cough up for an emotional/beautiful place like Amaroo, rather than just sending cold contributions to EV. There's always this constant reinforcement of M's reward to Aussie premies for putting so much into Amaroo. Hearing good feedback from M, keeps the wheels (financial and physical) turning in the hope that M will come back soon for another event. One of the key things I learnt and was a significant factor in my further disillusionment with M, was when I heard from the Amaroo building coordinator that the 'wish-list' for Amaroo's development was going to cost AUD$30 million. I almost fell off my chair. Amaroo is marketed to people outside of EV as the Ivory Rock Convention Centre and there are a lot of great EV premies working very hard to get it self-sustaining. M apparently wants it as a Knowledge Centre, where premies can come anytime and stay and practice, but when will that happen? I am really skeptical now, in light of previous tales such as the 707 debacle and stuff on KK's posts. If the $30 million wishlist is fulfilled and it becomes a fully fledged conference centre, how many EV events will be held there? Will premies from around the world be able to come and stay for as long as they like, and will they have to pay for the priveledge?? How many events will M do there? One four-day event every 3 or 4 years like he's done lately? Is that worth all the blood sweat and monetary tears that premies are putting into it? And what if it has to be sold? In my opinion, if M really wanted to spread this Knowledge to as many thirsty people as he could, there could be a lot more effective ways to spend $30 million in order to achieve this. I know the exes on this web-site would happily give him some advice on how to do that!! Regards, TD Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 09, 1998 at 09:13:18 (EST)
From: KK Email: None To: TD Subject: Another Money Perspective Message: I think you're absolutely right. MJ's whole tack in Australia was always making everyone feel quaintly elite. It was patronising. Australia IS the land of milk and honey. It is so easy to progress financially. But now in Amaroo land there is a politician called PAULINE HANSON. She is a racist meglomaniac obsessed with Australia being sold off to Asians and other foreigners, etc. She's sure to have a website. Although I gather you're an ex-premie living in OZ, so I'm probably telling you to suck eggs, sorry! Nothing would surprise me about amounts of money running into the millions. It's just add a few zeros for MJ. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 13:58:56 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Everyone Subject: KK's story-help! Message: Dear KK and all, I just read a few posts of people commenting and thanking you, KK, for your story and I tried to find the thread in the active and inactive lists, could it be it is already in the archives! I have gotten SO FAR BEHIND!!! Now I can't even find the posts I just read referencing KK's story so if someone wouldn't mind helping me out, I'd be so greatful. Love, Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 14:51:41 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Robyn Subject: It's in The Linda Gross Thread Message: KK has a number of posts in the 'Letter from Linda Gross' Thread, that is still active. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 16:00:46 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: JW Subject: It's in The Linda Gross Thread Message: Thanks Joe, I saw that it said the LG thread and here I was confused thinking of lg who posts here from France, ugh! Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 08:12:00 (EST)
From: Katie Email: petkat@mail.trib.net To: Everyone Subject: Ex-Premie.org Cards Message: Thanks to RT, I have just obtained some of the new Ex-Premie.org business cards. These have the Ex-Premie logo, the web site URL, and say 'just say know' on the reverse. Anyone wanting to obtain some of these cards (RT kindly packaged then in envelopes with 10 cards each), please contact me at the e-mail address above. Requests from other countries are no problem. I've already heard from a few of you, so no need to write again if you've already asked me via e-mail (if you made a request on the forum, I probably don't remember!). Thanks, RT, for all your work! Regards to all from Katie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 10:09:05 (EST)
From: Katie Email: petkat@mail.trib.net To: all Subject: P.S. about cards Message: I forgot to say a few things about the cards. First, on the front of the card along with the logo and the URL, it says 'Where Knowledge brought us.' Also, if you don't feel comfortable giving me your address, and DO feel OK about Brian having it, then let him know and I will forward him the cards to send to you. Katie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 11:03:50 (EST)
From: RT Email: here's my card To: Katie, et all Subject: Grow your own cards Message: ..That's right Katie, and don't forget to tell the boys and girls that they can GROW your own cards! 'Ooh, I forgot to tell them!' 'That's OK! Hey kids, just remember to tell Mom and Dad that you need Internet access to www.wizard.avery.com for really cool FREE software that lets you easily print your own business cards on an inkjet or laser printer, with avery brand perforated business cards. Check last weeks post for the copy details. Say Katie, as long as you're here, why dontcha tell the boys and girl ex- premies what to put on the card?' 'OK. I already did.' 'Wow, that was fast! Katie, you're an awesome friend! So remember, kids: JUST SAY KNOW!' RT - who watched too much tv at age 9. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 06:52:42 (EST)
From: TD Email: None To: Everyone Subject: What about the ole Holi? Message: Dear Exes, Something I never experienced as a premie and yet had always wished to was the Holi. My ex had shown me a pirate video (in that it wasn't courtesy of Visions International!) of a Holi he'd gone to in Miami and he raved about the experience. All I can remember is thinking how freaky it all looked, like a wet Jean Michel Jarre concert! Anyway, M never ever mentioned them in the 4 years I was around, and I was wondering if you fellow exes could shed some light on why M did them and what part they supposedly served in his 'divine play'? I mean Darshan is explained as 'paying respect to the Master', but how did he introduce the Holi experience to you all - was it a purifying/cleansing thing? Regards, TD PS: Incidently, I went looking on the Net and found this piece from www.viewindia.com on the Holi Festival in India and had to put it here because of the bit about being truly democratic and egalitarian - and as we all know, that's the way M seems to like it! NOT! Seriously though, did you ever get to spray him back? * * * After about two months comes Holi, the very end of our cool season. It's a festival of colour, truly democratic and egalitarian. This festival is linked with the story of King Hiranyakashyap, whose growing pride caused him to consider himself as greater than the Gods. His son Prahlad, though a small child was a disciple of lord Vishnu and denied his father's pseudo-divinity. Hiranyakashyap seeing his son as a potential threat to his authority, devised many ways to kill his son. When all these failed the King's sister Hiolika, imagining herself to be immune from burning, had a fire lit all arond herself with the boy on her lap. But unfortunately it was Holika who was reduced to ashes while Prahlad emerged unscathed with the name of God on his lips...In time the festival has also become associated with the lila of Radha and Krishna. * * * Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 07:32:52 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: TD Subject: What about the ole Holi? Message: Hi TD - I only went to one Holi festival (ceremony?), and it was small - in a park in Miami. I think it was in 1977. Later on they had Holi in the Orange Bowl, which is a huge football stadium. Anyway, the impression I got was that it was supposed to be fun - M looked like he was having fun and so did most of the premies (of course a lot of them got 'blissed out' too). M didn't speak at all at the actual color-spraying thing that I went to - he just sprayed dye on the premies. (In India, of course, people put dye on each other!) I know JW and other people here have been to several more of these festivals so maybe they can shed more light on it. Also, someone kindly sent Brian some pictures of M at a holi ceremony and we scanned a couple of them for the site - so stay tuned. Katie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 08:00:02 (EST)
From: Richard Email: None To: Katie and TD Subject: What about the ole Holi? Message: Dear both, I remember going to a Holi in Rome (can't remember the year) and I seem to recall an earlier one in England, possibly Alexandra Palace or maybe Leicester. They were great fun but you try getting home on public transport afterwards. The manager of the pensione where I stayed in Rome was totally freaked by the dye and charged me extra for showers. Richard Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 09:48:54 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Richard Subject: Go to India! Message: Rawat still plays holi in India, almost every time he goes there. Everybody gets wet ... It looks like the Indian premies really enjoy it, as well as the thousands of westerners who go there ! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 11:26:33 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: TD Subject: Metaphor of the week! Message: like a wet Jean Michel Jarre concert! Or Kitaro? TD, After I'd moved out of the ashram (Toronto Hans Jayanti, '74) I stayed with my mother for three months. Absolutely guilt-ridden and prone to alienating her and her friends with just a little too much satsang, believe it or not, I moved into a very structred premie house (Chicora St.) for 'serious' devotees. My roommates were all the kind of solid-state premies the community coordinator could count on. Or so he thought! That spring ('75), Maharaji celebrated Holi in Miami but, as sometimes happened, he did not invite premies from outside the region. In fact, we weren't even supposed to know about it, if you can imagine how that worked. (Please do, because I can't remember myself). But a couple of us, led by Kate, found out and, no kidding, actually bought tickets! Without a clear invitation from Maharaji (who was doing his own inviations then. This was before the great Elan Vital), even against his 'agya' one might say, we took off for Miami. Boy were we bad!! We ended up at the festival, wearing white crinkly Indian clothes (burial costumes?) and getting all coloured in different colours from top to bottom by our beloved Lord. They even played some wild and crazy One Foundation music over the Orange Bowl p.a. It was really something!!! Somehow, we eneded up checking into the very same hotel the Lord himself was in. He was on a different floor. I got to open the door once for Shri Durga Ji and her baby in a stroller. As she walked by I could feel the grace. It was incredible (even though my mind was REALLY fighting me right then). I saw Maharaji and his people go sailing that next day and almost volunteered as crew but realized that what he really wanted me to do was stay within inside. I was really letting go. A lto of my concepts werer just clanging around but I wasn't buying into any of them. This was like a new beginning, there was so much grace. When we got back to Toronto, our community coordinator, Phil Dack, gave me shit satsang fro disobeying Maharji's agya. My application to re-enter the ashram would have to be considered in a new light, he told me. I might have to wait a little longer (I did, but don't worry. It wasn't THAT long.) Still, I felt that Maharaji had really touched me with his perfect lila of love and inner dance of joy within inside. A few years later, Phil married Kate. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 12:33:27 (EST)
From: Judex Email: None To: TD Subject: What about the ole Holi? Message: TD the recent video 'Like the Rain' (about 8 mins) features 'Holi'. I never experienced it (but got Holy Breath at my last darshan so I suppose that's my lot). My sister got it in India. She said they wore white of course, and so got stained with all the colours. The video shows him feeding rose petals into the stream. It makes a great video (I think). Lots of slo mo. Very emotional. Indian premies holding up little tin containers to catch the coloured water. Westerners leaping against the spray (mostly a few shots of the same guy actually) in ecstacy. So I was told he was cleansing them and bathing them in his 'colours' or something. When I was a young would-be writer I wrote a film story about a woman who ends up being an artist, painting colours in the sky with coloured water or light, I can't remember which. Very fanciful (you can see why I didn't make it) but strange eh? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 13:00:30 (EST)
From: Gail Email: freedom@gtn.net To: Judex Subject: What about the ole Holi? Message: Take A) HOCUS POCUS SUCH AS: I came like a beggar to your lotus feet, And you carried me away, You fill me with the need to have your love, And breathe me with a life that lets me love you. You bathe me in the colour of your love, And fill me with a life that lets me love you. plus B) THE FOLLOWING: permanently-dyed, pink hair; sunburnt skin; crystal-clear googly eyes; bagels from the Concordia (with interesting conversations with the Jewish manager turned JW); free rolls and water from Wolfies; and an empty wallet equals C) NIRVANA Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 12:51:01 (EST)
From: Joy Email: None To: TD Subject: What about the ole Holi? Message: I went to a couple of Holi festivals in Miami, Florida, around 1978. The original, smaller ones were supposed to have been great, with people getting to pour colors and silly string on Maharaji, but by 1978 it was for about 10,000 people, so they rented the Orange Bowl (giant football stadium) and MJ stayed up on a huge, specially built platform and used a big water gun borrowed from the fire department. They had figured out how to get colored dyes directly into the stream of this water, so someone from below was feeding the stream of water with colors while MJ directed the gun. It was quite a powerful jet, if you were up close, but whenever it came your way you just raised your hands in the air to collect the divine grace in the form of colored water, and it was pretty blissful. Loud rock music blared from the auditorium speakers the whole time, and I particularly remember Rod Stewart's 'Do Ya Think I'm Sexy' being played!! Does this guy have an ego, or what?? This all took place within the context of a 'normal' (ha!) program at the Convention Center, of satsang in the evenings and darshan in the afternoon. Holi is a traditional Indian festival, from what I understand, and over there, people get hit with paint bombs, and all kinds of silly string and stuff. It was fun getting totally white clothes to wear for this experience, then coming back drenched from head to toe in every color imaginable, usually all running together to form a muddy brown by that time. (And it was VERY difficult to shower it all off!) There's some photos of those festivals with Durga Ji pouring color and glitter onto MJ, up there on the stage with him. Despite the Miami heat, by the end of the whole thing, you were shivering with being wet and from the cold water. Not something I'd want to experience again, but an interesting memory. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 12:58:59 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Joy Subject: Pictures? Message: I think you old exes need some recent pictures. I'll find some and have them on 'my' site asap! You'll love them. The BM in India, as proud as he can be! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 15:11:38 (EST)
From: x Email: None To: everyone Subject: Another perspective of Holi. Message: I was at the Orange Bowl too. I dont want to be a stick in the mud, but I thought it was really lame. Like Gail said, Googly eyed sunburnt bongos. Running around, acting like grinning zombies, while a teenage megolomaniac sprays everyone with food colored, water. I'm sorry, I know you were all having a good time, delusional or not. I just could'nt get 'into it'. Anyway I don't think you missed much, T.D., although I'm sure, another, CD, Redheels, etc., would disagree . x Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 16:17:07 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: x Subject: A sexual perspective of Holi Message: I never went, but they used to show a video of Holi at many of the programs in the Satsang halls that I attended. I think I have said this before, but my siblings said that if they had to endure that film once more, they were going to throw up! I also thought it was a sexual thing, too, which made me a little uncomfortable. M holding the giant penis...you get the picture. I think it was just a big ego trip and if you really analyze the thing, it is degrading to the premies... That's getting a bit heavy, though. It was supposed to be fun. It would be more fun if I got to hold the hose! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 17:50:54 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: TD Subject: What about the ole Holi? Message: I think others have pretty much explained it. I would just add that in addition to that very small Holi in 1975, Holi was held in Miami four consecutive years (1977-1980). There might even have been one in 1981 or 1982 as well, I'm not completely sure. As Joy said, the colored water spraying was one event in a regular program with satsang and darshan at the good old Miami Beach convention center, the site of an untold number of 'festivals.' Each year, the colored water part got more elaborate. In 1977 it was pretty small, held at a park in South Miami Beach. Then they moved to the Orange Bowl for at least two years, and Maharaji sprayed a very large, and powerful mounted fire hose that, of course, changed colors at his whim electronically. As we know, the lord was really into gadgets. I think the final year, Holi was held in some baseball stadium. They played loud rock and disco music and Maharaji wore malas and he sprayed the water. It really got boring after awhile. I recall the water was cold, but the sun was hot. People got sunburned, the ground got muddy, and people tried to figure out what the hell the whole thing was about. Like I said, it was kind of fun the first time or two, but then it was just kind of dumb. In 1979, Life Magazine wanted to do a story on Holi, with the cooperation of DLM. Maharaji approved this, as it appeared it would be a positive story. DLM's PR guy, Michael Bergman, was in charge of the project. We awaited with baited breath a story which would finally be positive about BM so he could spread knowledge to the world!! Anyway, when the story came out in about May or June, 1979, it was quite 'objective.' It had big color pictures of BM spraying paint, but it reported the song lyrics [like Rod Stewart's 'Do you Think I'M Sexy'] they were playing and it just made BM look like what he was, a cult leader, running a very bizarre cult. Michael Bergman had a nervous breakdown right after that. The Miami newspapers also ran color photos with really negative stories. I think that's partly why BM stopped doing Holi in the West. The press would notice stuff like that, and he decided to hide out from the press at all cost. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 18:43:47 (EST)
From: G's mom Email: None To: all Subject: Holi's past.... Message: I was a premie for almost all these Holi's. This is the only time I must dissagree with X. I thought it was great fun. I still think it was fun....uh oh.... I was at the one in 1975 too. As I said once recently it was at Cape Florida at the tip of Key Biscayne. It was really small. It was the first time I had ever seen the guru so I gathered the idea it was quite common to see him in a small group. It was never to be repeated. Thhat holi had no big water guns and I think they scented the water. It was a lot of bucket throwing. In 76 recall was the failed trial run of Knowledge lite...no Holi :( In 1977 it returned this time at a park on Miami Beach. It was not as much fun. Getting the bigger guns but I do not remember much. The next two I remember were at the Orange Bowl. I remember the 'da ya think I am sexy' and the Life Magazine article. I even went to one after I was an ex....my former husband was a premie and I went with him. Took baby Gunther. Even then I did not hate it. I have pics of us. I would send one to JW , Katie or Jim if they want one. If we ever had a ex prem meeting we could have a little Holi for the person who started this so he won't be so left out. First one to win the race to the water cannon gets to be the BM.... Actually, if Holi had a meaning this is what it could have been. A baptismal sort of thing. Remember there was something like Holy Water? Did it not start with a 'Ch'??? I think the idea of Holi was something like prasad...like you get the supreme pleasure of touching guru water??? However, the phallic interpetation as posted is hard to deny.... Anyway, I like Raging Waters and River Country at Disneyworld too. I thought playing with water was a lot like a water balloon fight and it was fun. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 19:10:51 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: G's mom Subject: Holi's past.... Message: Hi, G's mom - I would LOVE a picture of you all at Holi. I hated the one Holi festival I went to (I have figured out that it was in 1977). I hated it because I was getting permanently disillusioned with the M trip after the 'rededication' of 1977 (which followed the loosening up of 1976, which I loved). Plus I didn't have the right clothes and I couldn't afford to buy new ones just to get sprayed by M. Really! But my best friend, who is also an ex, said that she really liked the Holi festivals in the Orange Bowl, etc. Maybe someone else can help with this: as I understand, Holi in India is not centered around one person, but is basically just people throwing colored water and/or dye on each other. Is this true? The quote that TD gave at the beginning of this thread would seem to indicate so. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 19:42:01 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Katie Subject: Holi's past.... Message: G-mom, Yes I'll take a pic too. You know, it sounds oike my memories screwy. I said I snuck down to the Holi in '75 which was at the Orange Bowl but I gues taht was a later one. That means that I partied with the guru out on the beach, like everyone's talking about. I guess so. I kind of remember it. Kind of. Is this like a repressed sexual abuse memory or something? Yes, I need to see a picture. Kate Dack, if you're out there, where were we? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jul 08, 1998 at 01:18:26 (EST)
From: Gail Email: None To: Katie Subject: Holi's past.... Message: As I recall, the point of holi is to become coloured so as to be unrecognizable as your former self. It worked for me. Especially the year I went home in first class with pink hair. Just one of MJs lilas. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jul 08, 1998 at 01:28:05 (EST)
From: G's mom Email: None To: Gail Subject: first class Message: Dear Gail, If you had the bucks to fly first class I am suprised Rawat did not keep you in the elite inner circle. On the other hand the initiators probably felt you should fly in the cargo hold and send the savings for the personal jet. Must have been funny the pink hair..they probably just thought you were a punk rocker or whatever they were called. G's mom Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jul 08, 1998 at 01:35:33 (EST)
From: Gail Email: None To: G's mom Subject: first class Message: It was because I had pink hair. Actually, I didn't pay for it. I was a nonsmoker at the time and that's all that was available. I'm just a poor high school teacher. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jul 08, 1998 at 15:27:13 (EST)
From: G's mom Email: None To: Gail Subject: high school Message: Dear Gail, As a parent of high schoolers I want to tell you I respect what you do tremendously. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jul 08, 1998 at 19:34:20 (EST)
From: TD Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Holi lila, Batman! Message: (Notice I didn't say Fatman - as I'm trying hard to refrain from such 'in my mind' pettiness!) Thanks so much everyone for all your holi tales. I can just imagine you all in your twilight years, sitting around the fire with your grandchildren, and enthralling them with such colourful wet adventures!! The Orange Bowl Holi must have been the one I saw the film of. His contraption I recall had coloured lights as the coloured water changed and came out! I look forward to seeing the pictures on Jean-Michel's site!! I now have an explanation for all those funky white Indian outfits my ex had in the darker recesses of the cupboard! Kept in anticipation perhaps...?? I still can't believe that 'Do ya think I'm sexy' was played. I think Daya or one of the other One Foundation singers should do a cover and put out a retrospective Holi compilation album! Thanks again everyone for such great informative answers! Regards, TD Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 00:47:16 (EST)
From: Selena Email: None To: tony Subject: the thread went inactive Message: And I hoped you would read my last response because I wanted to thank you for explaining your reasons for your posts on poverty, and also wanted to thank you for sharing a little about yourself. I know that can be hard in a public forum and I apprecieate your explanations for why you have said the things you said. ... it's been a long strange trip. ... Selena Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 02:37:14 (EST)
From: tony Email: None To: Selena Subject: the thread went inactive Message: That's OK, we seem to share some experiences. It would be interesting to delve into them. I hope the trip was an interesting one. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 22:47:06 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Everyone Subject: CDCP experiment 2409 Message: Down below, Chris posted: To keep the anti-cult movement in perspective, some text from the cult link page: 'Demons and Deprogramming Many in the Christian churches believe that cults are victims of satanic oppression or even possession. ......' Chris, what's your point? First of all, what's this 'anti-cult movement'? By that do you mean anyone and everyone who criticizes cults? That's a movement? And what's your point in posting this piece? What perspective does it keep the 'movement' in? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 11:28:11 (EST)
From: G's mom Email: None To: Jim Subject: what I thought... Message: I think CD was trying to discount this webpage because of it's source, a Christian group. The 'demons' comment was the weirdest part of the web page. But there was a lot of good information for anyone, religous or not, on that webpage. There has been a great deal of discussion here about how to best help friends and family still entrenched in the cult and how to help those recently out. I felt the info there could be useful in addressing those questions. I suspect CD found it threatening and could say 'aha, it comes from weird demon believing Christians' and therefore discount it entirely. And I could be wrong too. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 11:56:52 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: G's mom Subject: what I thought... Message: Thank you, G-mom, for your contribution. Science is a slow, laborious effort at times. We work, we try, we hope for the best. While your speculation may be right, we likely won't know one way or the other for years. Thanks for your interest. Jim CDCP Project coordinator (until someone else wants the job) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 15:52:18 (EST)
From: John Email: None To: Jim Subject: to the eternal optimist Message: Jim, you ask: 'Chris, what's your point?' Move up a little Jim, get right on the edge of your seat and wait for the answer, I'm sure it won't be long coming. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 16:13:26 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: John Subject: impossible? Message: John, I get a little nervous when I see people publicly belittle or scoff at the CDCP. In case you were unaware, we're almost entirely dependent on public funding. I take it from your post that you're not currently interested in contributing some time to the project? Is there anyone out there with a little time on their hands, a gulieless heart and a burning desire to know the truth? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 18:50:03 (EST)
From: G's mom Email: None To: Jim Subject: CDCP Message: Dear Jim, If you are looking for funding for the CDCP perhaps you could call the woman who tried to talk to the Gorrilla ( remember it had a pet kitten named Koko or was that the gorrilla?) anyway, they may know something about interspecies communication. Hope this helps you in your quest. Oh yeah, look up the dolphin folks at the Miami Seaquarium too. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 19:21:31 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: G's mom Subject: CDCP Message: TOO fuckin' funny!! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 22:09:48 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Everyone Subject: My answer to Linda Gross Message: July 6, 1998 EV, Inc. (By fax to 818-889-6522) 5321 Derry Avenue Suite G Agoura Hills, CA 91301 Att: Linda Gross, President Dear Linda: Re: Your letter of July 3, 1998 Thank you for advising me that you’ve 'forwarded' my letter. What does that mean, anyway? Did Maharaji actually get it? Do you know? Did you bother to ask? I must say, Linda, I’m a little disappointed. I thought you were going to try, at the very least, to find out if Maharaji would actually talk with me or something. Now, after all this time, you just tell me that you have 'no control' over Maharaji or his communications. Well I KNEW that. (In fact I had the same problem when I was a premie.) I’m sorry to see that you don’t want to talk with me anymore. I thought you enjoyed talking with me. As you say, you didn’t know how things were in the early 70s and I was able to fill you in on that a bit. For me, I valued your more recent perspectives of Maharaji and his 'teachings'. I think we both enjoyed the shop talk we shared. Like I say, I’m sorry you now believe that further discussion might be 'counterproductive to your goals.' I hope I don’t have that effect on everyone. In any event, you did invite me to ask you any other questions I might have more properly within your domain. I do have some and they all concern Maharaji’s relationship with Elan Vital ('EV'). You write: I do not know how things were in the 70s but Elan Vital is separate from Maharaji. Its purpose is to promote his teachings, but he is not an officer, director or employee of the organization. There are more than 50 similar organizations in other countries around the world. My questions, then, are: 1. Who established EV? Who’s idea was it? Who named it and when? How are its directors and officers chosen? How about its employees? 2. Does Maharaji ever make suggestions to EV? If so, how does he do that? How are his proposals considered? Are they voted on at board meetings? Are they ever rejected? 3. Does EV subsidize any of Maharjai’s living expenses in Malibu or elsewhere? How about those of his wife, children, brother or friends? If yes, how much money did EV spend on Maharaji et al. last year? 4. Who established the 50+ other organizations around the world? Are they also called EV? Who named them, picked their directors, officers and employees? Does Maharaji have any say in their operation? How does he communicate his suggestions? Are they ever rejected? 5. Is there an umbrella organization that oversees all of the various 'similar organizations'? You also offer that: Maharaji travels throughout most of the year responding to invitations to speak from various organizations. Elan Vital-US is but one organization requesting his attendance at its events. 6. How does Maharaji receive these invitations? Does he never plan tours without an actual invitation from each destination? What organization besides EV ever invites Maharaji to speak? 7. Who decided to cancel the Seattle program? Why was it cancelled? Does anyone but Maharaji ever make such decisions? 8. Is Maharaji compensated for these speaking engagements? Does Maharaji receive donations at EV functions? Does Maharaji ever receive donations on account of publicity generated at EV functions? Do the various EV organizations cover Maharaji’s expenses? If so, to what extent? 9. Who has access to EV’s books? Does Maharaji? If so, why? 10. Referring to something you’d read on the ex-premie web page, you wrote that you 'resigned from [your] position in 1980 and left'. What do you mean by that? Also, my own point of clarification: it’s not 'my' Web page. I just hang out there. Sincerely, |
Date: Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 23:37:36 (EST)
From: Rick Email: None To: Jim Subject: My answer to Linda Gross Message: Spot on, Jim. Good letter. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 02:20:34 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: Jim Subject: Hope springs eternal Message: Jim, You are an eternal optimist. I'm willing to bet if you put your mind to it you can pen her answer here... it shouldn't be too difficult to figure it out. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 02:55:40 (EST)
From: TD Email: None To: Jim Subject: My answer to Linda Gross Message: Good letter Jim, and your questions were certainly 'within her domain' in her role in EV. She could be asked those same questions by the media or other Government departments who have had no direct involvement/interest with M. I'd like to see how EV coordinators of the other 50+ countries would respond to those same questions... Regards, TD Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 06:02:56 (EST)
From: Richard Email: r2harris@plymouth.ac.uk To: Jim Subject: Great Letter Jim Message: Jim, It's a great letter Jim, your stamina is to be commended if not bottled and sold in pharmacies world-wide. On the point of the multiplicity of EV's world-wide, I wonder if Linda would provide us with the relevant contact details for the other ones. It would interesting to ask identical questions of all concerned and then compare the answers. Just a thought, but I would be happy to help if I can. regards Richard Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 11:20:18 (EST)
From: g's mom Email: None To: Jim Subject: Great Letter Jim Message: Dear Jim, Great letter. Do you think the 'counterproductive to my goals' means she won't write back? Do you think what you say even chinks the armor? She seems to bright for it not to. We shall see. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 14:50:07 (EST)
From: x Email: None To: Linda Subject: Who's in charge, Linda? Message: Yes, very good letter Jim. I'ts funny that you asked her who named EV, as I have wondered about this also. I think Elan Vital would be an excellent name for a brand of premium bottled water. Did someone pirate the name from something else? Was there a runner up choice for a name? if so, what? Did BM make the final decision? Did he let someone smarter make the final decision? Was there a vote? A top five? Do you know Linda? We know you're reading. Elan Vital is so eighties its almost retro already. Visions Int. sounds like a good name for a porno distribution company. Who's in charge Linda? Who? Semi-seriously, x Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 17:07:16 (EST)
From: jethro Email: None To: x Subject: Who's in charge, Linda? Message: I seem to remember that prempal said he had a dream that his father appeared to him and told him the name elan vital. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 18:14:41 (EST)
From: x Email: None To: jethro Subject: Who's in charge, Linda? Message: That sounds like B.S. to me. I wonder what the real story is. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 16:37:30 (EST)
From: CD Email: None To: Jim Subject: My answer to Linda Gross Message: >Also, my own point of clarification: it’s not 'my' Web page. I just hang out there. Jim, I thought that you were a charter member of the web site. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 19:35:06 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: CD Subject: My answer to Chris Message: Jim, I thought that you were a charter member of the web site. Oh, asking me a question, are you, Chris? Like why the FUCK would I want to answer one of your questions when you won't answer mine? Get real or get lost. Jim [Please note: this has been a demonstration of a new protocol currently being tested at the CDCP. Some, but not all, of the project researchers believe that this is the only effective way to communicate with Chris. That is, constantly pointing out to him that he has no right asking anyone anything unless and until he reciprocates in kind. Neither this procedure nor any other being currently tested at the CDCP is approved for non-project related usage.] Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 21:23:16 (EST)
From: G's mom Email: None To: Jim Subject: disclaimer Message: this is a test, this is only a test, of the emergency....very cute. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jul 08, 1998 at 17:02:03 (EST)
From: Selena Email: None To: Jim and x Subject: Elan Vital Message: Last time I did an altavista or whatever search on Elan Vital there WERE other things that used that name, companies or whatever. I can't remember what but I think there were several. (I'm too lazy to look right now) Also, doesn't elan mean 'life' in French? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jul 08, 1998 at 17:07:38 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Selena Subject: Elan Vital MLM (not DLM) Message: I've gotten email a few times from an Elan Vital multi-level marketing scheme, beleive it or not. I don't think it's got anything to do with our boy, though. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jul 08, 1998 at 23:07:18 (EST)
From: Rick Email: None To: Selena Subject: Elan Vital Message: We were told in the seventies that Elan Vital meant 'life force'. Ooooohhhh! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jul 08, 1998 at 23:35:19 (EST)
From: CD Email: None To: Rick Subject: Elan Vital Message: >We were told in the seventies that Elan Vital meant 'life force'. Ooooohhhh! It is in Websters Unabridged for the curious. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 19:42:11 (EST)
From: Another Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Mistake time Message: Dare to Read what Techniques is under 'Thank You' below. Regards, Another (Hey if Lovers of India can make a mistake, so can I) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 20:14:50 (EST)
From: And Another Email: None To: Another Subject: Mistake time Message: Are you guitar playing Tim from Reigate? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 19:34:22 (EST)
From: Another Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Dare to read 'What Techniques' Message: See the angst I have been saddled with below. (Thread under Dyslexia) Fair warning to the faint of heart and small children and their pets. Seriously. Need I say anymore? Gail, I hope you read this. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 02:07:29 (EST)
From: Gail Email: freedom@gtn.net To: Another Subject: Sorry for being rude Message: I am sorry for my inappropriate comments to you. It was untrue, ignorant, and uncalled for on my part. I am not angry with you. I am angry with myself for being so stupid all these years. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 02:14:44 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: Gail Subject: Sorry for being stupid Message: Gail, You are in very good company:) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 09:17:10 (EST)
From: John Email: None To: Gail Subject: Don't be sorry for being rude Message: Hey Gail, I LOVED your comment about dogs and pets etc. That's all I ever was and all most of us ever were for M. He never related to me as a human being. I was one of his nameless pets who could come and sniff his feet ever few months. And please, don't worry about hurting Another. She has the shield of devotion for her master. What can hurt her? Also, why do premies come to this web site and spout the kind of stuff they spout? Because, they want to hear the perspective that you shared. They craves the truth. They crave REAL talk, REAL communication. The sappy stuff M feeds them in those videos isn't gonna satisfy a real human being. So, Gail, please, don't hold back. It needs to be said, finally, after all these years. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 12:23:03 (EST)
From: Gail Email: Freedom To: Another Subject: What's the deal? Message: Until June 9, 1998, I had never been exposed to much negativity about MJ except the occasional outburst from myself or other folks in the clan. Other premies, who must be innoculated against this stuff, and MJ, himself, talked of the net. So what do I do? Check it out as any inquisitive person would do. I immediately sent MJ a short thank you note which Brian has posted. Next, I read the Journeys, etc. The one thing that kept slapping me in the face was the bold-faced honesty. These people had tried MJs prescription and had come up losers. The early years were really fun, but I have been shuffling off to videos, programs, and donating without enthusiasm for years. I was a walking zombie. My life was not my own. THINK! HAS THIS REALLY BEEN THE ULTIMATE TRIP OR IS IT SOMETHING WE HAVE CONNCOCTED THROUGH REPETION FROM MJ AND FROM EACH OTHER. Drunks and drug addicts reinforce each other's trip, too, YA KNOW. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 17:41:47 (EST)
From: rt Email: hahohee To: Everyone Subject: TOP 15 MILLENIUM BUGS :) Message: 'Millennium Bug' humor. Selected from 98 submissions from 33 contributors. 15. IRS demands a hundred years of interest from stunned taxpayers. 14. '99 Bottles of Beer on the Wall' song gets stuck in infinite loop. 13. At the stroke of midnight, Windows 99 turns back into DOS 1.0, the Pentium V turns back into an 8088, and the Handsome User is left holding a beautiful glass mouse. 12. Internet Movie Database now lists '1901: A Space Odyssey' 11. Residents of Indiana have to figure out if they're off by 999 years, 364 days and 23 hours, or 1000 years and one hour. 10. Bob Dole's age erroneously listed with only 2 digits. 09. Mel Brooks's '2000 year old man' skit stops being funny.... oops, too late! 08. Sales of Coca Cola jumps drastically after original cocaine-laden formula becomes legal again. 07. Software engineers point out that since computers think it's almost 1900, we technically have to 'party like it's 1899,' which, frankly, doesn't seem like much fun. 06. Microsoft declares the year 1900 to be the new standard of the 'Gatesian' calendar. 05. Jesus shows up late for His second coming, blames it on COBOL programmers. 04. Computers temporarily fooled into thinking Strom Thurmond is only 103. 03. First Top 5 List of the year? 'Reasons No One Would Ever Assassinate President McKinley' 02. Using a computerized adoption service, Michael Jackson mistakenly takes home some octogenarians. 01. ...and the Number 1 Unforeseen Consequence of the 'Millennium Bug'... Unexpected demand for COBOL programmers results in severe understaffing of fast-food restaurants. -OR- Jesus Christ does appear and tells Maharaji 'I'm in charge now because you really blew it at Houston '73!' -RT Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 05:40:12 (EST)
From: Richard Email: None To: rt Subject: What? No Sinclair Basic? Message: Dear rt, very funny, thanks for the laugh. I told them to my wife and she said, 'What!', jeez some people just don't have a sense of humour. No. 1 could also result in my faculty becoming lecturer-free, apart from the Fortran freaks of course. Me? I'm with ADA. regards Richard Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 13:42:04 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: rt Subject: TOP 15 MILLENIUM BUGS :) Message: Dear RT, Very funny but I am glad I didn't become a COBOL programmer as I took a lot of COBOL in college and was really quite good at it but I have NEVER worked at a fast food restruant, thank god! Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 15:36:17 (EST)
From: RT Email: %^%#$@#$% To: Robyn Subject: cash for cobol skills Message: Hi Robyn! How does $70-100 a hour sound? WOW are you LUCKY. www.Y2K.com has links to other sites for cobol freelance.... you may be a HOT commodity, even work at home! You'll have to surf, for a few dozen mouse clicks. I am sorry- there really is no other shortcut to wealth. Seek and ye shall find, but save often. Good luck, RT Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 16:09:00 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: RT Subject: cash for cobol skills Message: Dear RT, Thanks for the info! I thought you were kidding and just as my full time job is about to end and thoughts of part time work only had me thrilled but financially anxious! I'll start clicking right away! Love, Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 17:16:39 (EST)
From: RT Email: only 16 months left1 To: Robyn and smart lookers Subject: Real $$ rates you can earn Message: Robyn: original price is for skilled, but you could get $30 to 40 with retraining somewhere....??? And for current market rates, go to: www.realrates.com/survey.htm Here is a line from the survey of Contractors, NOT the permanent jobs w/w-2's... Y2K Mainframe, COBOL Los Angeles CA $70 7/2/98 Since this is a 1 to 2 year job issue, you want the contractor's rates. Please keep me posted in a week as to your success, I may emulate you! thanks ... RT Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 20:25:57 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: RT Subject: Real $$ rates you can earn Message: Dear RT, Bless your flipping heart! Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jul 08, 1998 at 00:01:54 (EST)
From: Selena Email: None To: Robyn Subject: Real $$ rates you can earn Message: Robyn, This is true!! People with cobol are in high demand. But unfortunately it's not simple, they ususally want you to know COBOL and be able to adapt to other packages, and languages since most of the stuff waritten in COBOL has been partially migrated, etc. But it is true about the COBOL thing. Our esteemed organisation has had several openings this year. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jul 08, 1998 at 05:10:58 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Selena Subject: Real $$ rates you can earn Message: Dear Selena, I went to the site RT mentioned but didn't see where they would retrain you but I am going to look into auditing the COBOL classes while I am working there, if they still teach it! I'll look into it tomorrow evening or call there during the day, that's it! I'm going back to sleep, just woke up and just had to come here and see what was up, fun! Love, Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 14:16:36 (EST)
From: x Email: None To: Everyone Subject: KK, on LG thread, DON'T MISS Message: Wow, I almost missed that. I'm still numb with shock after reading this guys inside info. That was very illuminating. Thanks KK. Also, I 'm sure I'm not the only one who would love to hear more, since you've already gotten started..... x Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 19:30:09 (EST)
From: TD Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Hear! Hear! Message: Wow, I just read it too! Thanks KK! Honestly this web-site continues to blossom, what with all these people coming out of the woodwork and sharing their juicy titbits! Must be something in the air.... Speaking of which, I've just read an article about Jane Campion's (The Piano, Portrait of a Chickie-babe etc) new movie called 'Holy Smoke' which is about a cult and is set in India and Australia. Kate Winslett and Harvey Keitel star. Harvey apparently plays the cult leader or the deprogrammer who falls in love with Kate. It wasn't sure which. (If Harvey was the cult leader, I'm sure instead of the followers calling each other 'sister' and 'brother', they probably call each other Mr Blonde, Ms Pink, Mr Brown...etc). TD Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 00:46:02 (EST)
From: david f. Email: dkfreed@whidbey.com To: TD Subject: M and EV Message: Yes, this thread was very good. But people saying that 'EV doesn't financially support M.' What sort of drug-induced bullshit is this? That's like saying Rev. Moon isn't supported by the Unification Church. Give me a break! best wishes, david f. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 09:36:58 (EST)
From: KK Email: None To: x Subject: KK, on LG thread, DON'T MISS Message: I'll do my best. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 10:05:56 (EST)
From: Richard Email: None To: KK Subject: Full respect KK Message: Dear KK, By now you'll have heard lots of messages of thanks from all the ex's here and will be aware just how much your input is valued. The feelings that we all have about telling our stories are varied and range from one end of the guilt/fear spectrum to the other. I don't know why we have these feelings but we do and every additional contribution lessens the burden a little. It dosn't seem to matter how long ago it was or how small our role, it is still hard to recount the tale. So full respect to you KK, your effort is highly valued. Richard Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jul 08, 1998 at 04:57:52 (EST)
From: KK Email: None To: Richard Subject: Full respect KK Message: Thanks to you, Richard. Hey, this is about recovering from a nightmare and the fear is there for as long as the demons of the night make their presence felt. I used to have huge and irrational issues around vegetarianism, Indians, a heap of mundane things which would trigger the atmosphere of those times. Some people are going to have a lot of difficulty with guilt because of reasons other than the cult, e.g. a particular upbringing. One of the things that made it easier for me was that some of my immediate family were premies also and they got out a lot earlier without making a big deal of it. For example, they dropped off going to satsang and meditating. They were polite and tolerant towards my continuing involvement. When I bit the dust, they were extremely supportive. My mother said she knew it was like a divorce and it would take time but was the best decision etc. Afterwards they told me that it had given them a lot of heartache to see me so deeply involved that they couldn't even get hold of a 'phone no. to reach me because everything in and around MJ directly is silent and private. I don't know how effective counseling would be. It's very hard as you say to get across to someone who's never been through it just what the whole thing was like. All the best, Richard. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jul 08, 1998 at 05:16:39 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: KK Subject: for Katie and KK Message: Dear Katie and KK, I just think Katie might know some way for you to contact therapists that deal with this type of thing. If it isn't her maybe she knows some one who could direct you. I know you are not from the US but just thought I'd try, that is if you decided that was what you wanted. It is so good that you have good support within your family. I also respect you for opening up to us here, thank you. Love, Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jul 08, 1998 at 09:18:49 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: Robyn Subject: Counseling Message: Hi KK and Robyn - I don't have any really good referrals for therapists. I know that there are people that specialize in exit counseling for cult members, but it sounds like KK is beyond the exit counseling phase now. A good friend of mine got help from a place called Info-Cult in Montreal. She talked to a man named Mike - apparently he deals with people from all over the world. I can get some URL's for some places on the net that deal with cult exiting (I think we have some of the links in the 'Breaking Free' section of this site), if anyone is interested. By the way, KK, I can understand your unwillingness to explain the whole thing to a therapist! I have had similar feelings. Take care, Katie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jul 08, 1998 at 09:36:01 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: all Subject: Intl Center for Cult Awareness Message: This site has lots of information on cults in general and in particular. It is run by a person named Jan Groenwold (sp?) in Australia (not sure exactly where). We have a link to this site in the 'Breaking Free: family and friends' section of this site, along with several other similar sites. Here's the link - just click on it to access (if I do this right, that is!) http://student.uq.edu.au/~py101663/zentry1.htm Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 09, 1998 at 09:02:47 (EST)
From: KK Email: None To: Katie Subject: Intl Center for Cult Awareness Message: I've just checked this site out, thanks. Not much direct support for ex-premies by ex-premies. Let's think about what can be done to assist. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 09, 1998 at 08:52:57 (EST)
From: KK Email: None To: Katie Subject: Counseling Message: Thanks Katie. Yes, I think you're right. It's been 12 years now. There were some very low moments, that's for sure. I remember feeling very lonely and isolated early on. I went straight into a worldly survival mode, worked hard, bought a business with the help of an understanding bank manager, bought a business, built it up and sold it to an appreciative purchaser, went back to school and became a lawyer, worked for the underdog and now I work in native title, legal education for Australian indigenous folks and generally in the marginalised sector of the world community. It's been a busy 12 years. In between times, I nursed both my parents as they faced separate battles with cancer. I got 'married', travelled the world to see the world rather than the inside of stadiums and satsang halls! Phew! It's been a real blast, come to think of it. Cheers for now and thanks again to you and Robyn. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 09, 1998 at 08:45:11 (EST)
From: KK Email: None To: Robyn Subject: for Katie and KK Message: Thanks Robyn. You're right, I live 'down under'. I'm actually not particularly inclined towards counselling, however I do appreciate your encouragement in this direction. My parents have both passed away now. But I feel we were all at peace when they died. Thank you for your kind words. I'm pleased that it has worked out that the Forum is here and I could participate. Next week I'm going on vacation to a place in the sun where I know a lot of premies and ex-premies live including some previous 'high fliers'. Who knows who I'll run into when I do my vacation browsing through the new age shops. All the best and catch up again soon. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |