Ex-Premie.Org |
Forum III Archive # 16 | |
From: Jul 3, 1998 |
To: Jul 11, 1998 |
Page: 5 Of: 5 |
You Don't Wan't to Know -:- CD be COOL -:- Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 03:10:35 (EST) __Jim -:- CD be COOL -:- Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 12:22:36 (EST) knowledge recipient '81 -:- Been away! What's going on? -:- Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 20:23:18 (EST) __CD -:- Been away! What's going on? -:- Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 21:29:11 (EST) ____Jim -:- CDCP Data Sample 3859 -:- Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 12:25:35 (EST) ____Richard -:- You tell me......... -:- Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 08:48:59 (EST) __Carol -:- Been away! What's going on? -:- Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 23:40:54 (EST) __Scott T. -:- No Marvin Gaye lyrics alowed!! -:- Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 00:01:51 (EST) ____Scott T. -:- I mean 'allowed' -:- Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 00:09:55 (EST) ______Katie -:- Marvin Gaye rules -:- Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 01:58:17 (EST) ________Judex -:- Marvin Gaye rules -:- Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 06:16:04 (EST) __________Scott T. -:- Just kidding -:- Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 08:47:31 (EST) ____________Gerry -:- Not kidding -:- Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 18:01:07 (EST) __________Katie -:- To Judex -:- Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 12:36:05 (EST) ____________Judex -:- To Judex -:- Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 03:49:04 (EST) ______Carol -:- I mean 'allowed' -:- Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 03:03:56 (EST) __VP -:- Been away! What's going on? -:- Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 01:10:12 (EST) __tony -:- Been away! What's going on? -:- Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 02:51:21 (EST) __Jim -:- the rest of the story.. -:- Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 16:29:14 (EST) ____KR 81 -:- the rest of the story.. -:- Wed, Jul 08, 1998 at 00:42:16 (EST) seymour -:- secret world -:- Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 19:03:56 (EST) __Gail -:- secret world -:- Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 19:17:21 (EST) ____seymour -:- secret world -:- Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 19:47:33 (EST) ______Sir David -:- secret world -:- Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 21:20:15 (EST) ____Becky -:- atheism -:- Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 08:25:21 (EST) ______Jim -:- atheism -:- Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 10:42:47 (EST) ________Becky -:- atheism -:- Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 11:26:13 (EST) __________Jim -:- atheism -:- Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 15:14:03 (EST) ____________Becky -:- atheism -:- Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 15:11:19 (EST) __Judex -:- secret world -:- Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 23:41:21 (EST) ____seymour -:- secret world -:- Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 06:33:24 (EST) ______Sir David -:- How I see it -:- Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 06:53:41 (EST) ________Sir David -:- How I see it - part 2 -:- Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 07:18:15 (EST) __________seymour -:- How I see it - part 2 -:- Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 11:43:37 (EST) __________Judex -:- How I see it - part 2 -:- Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 03:39:52 (EST) ____________Judex -:- How I see it - part 3 -:- Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 03:59:20 (EST) ______________Sir David -:- Grinding to a beginning -:- Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 06:17:17 (EST) ______________Gail -:- Believe it or not? -:- Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 18:24:08 (EST) ________VP -:- Religious preferences -:- Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 02:08:22 (EST) __________Katie -:- Religious preferences -:- Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 07:56:15 (EST) ____________Becky -:- Religious preferences -:- Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 15:06:28 (EST) ______________Jim -:- Religious preferences -:- Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 16:28:35 (EST) Scott T. -:- Is Kevin Costner a premie? -:- Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 11:14:01 (EST) __Selena -:- Is Kevin Costner a premie? -:- Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 18:08:43 (EST) __TD -:- Is Kevin Costner a premie? -:- Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 20:07:16 (EST) Judex -:- Poster's Blues... -:- Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 09:51:06 (EST) __Selena -:- Independence Day Everyone -:- Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 12:38:56 (EST) ____JW -:- Independence Day Everyone -:- Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 20:02:39 (EST) ____VP -:- Independence Day Everyone -:- Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 01:36:19 (EST) ______Gail -:- Independence Day Everyone -:- Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 10:25:36 (EST) ______Scott T. -:- Independence Day Everyone -:- Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 10:35:27 (EST) ________VP -:- Spending time w/an ex -:- Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 20:47:59 (EST) __________Scott T. -:- Spending time w/an ex -:- Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 21:50:21 (EST) ____________Robyn -:- Spending time w/an ex -:- Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 09:44:01 (EST) ______________Scott T. -:- Spending time w/an ex -:- Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 10:05:22 (EST) __________Robyn -:- meeting Katie -:- Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 09:45:54 (EST) ______Carol -:- Got K on July 4th 1972 -:- Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 03:02:37 (EST) ________Robyn -:- Got K on July 4th 1972 -:- Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 22:26:45 (EST) Another -:- Dyslexia -:- Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 05:42:46 (EST) __Judex -:- Dyslexia -:- Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 07:24:46 (EST) ____Gail -:- Definition of a Premie -:- Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 08:04:35 (EST) __Jethro -:- Dyslexia -:- Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 09:26:12 (EST) __Joy -:- Dyslexia -:- Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 12:37:09 (EST) __bftb -:- Dyslexia-perspective -:- Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 13:01:03 (EST) ____Jim -:- bif's friend is a hypocrite -:- Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 14:09:28 (EST) ____bftb -:- Dyslexia-perspective pt.2 -:- Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 14:58:59 (EST) __Jim -:- Hypoglycemia -:- Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 14:33:34 (EST) ____seymour -:- Hypoglycemia -:- Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 19:26:18 (EST) __Scott T. -:- Dyslexia -:- Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 16:25:25 (EST) __JW -:- Dyslexia -:- Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 19:38:51 (EST) ____Another -:- Dyslexia -:- Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 02:54:53 (EST) ______Gail -:- Another, you are not stupid -:- Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 10:37:42 (EST) ______JW -:- Dyslexia -:- Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 13:24:54 (EST) ________Jim -:- JW and Another -:- Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 13:47:45 (EST) __________VP -:- Two valid questions -:- Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 22:04:16 (EST) ________Judex -:- Dyslexia -:- Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 03:54:11 (EST) ________Carol -:- Applause, JW! -:- Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 03:12:57 (EST) ______Jim -:- Perplexia -:- Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 14:10:19 (EST) ________Another -:- Two Seperate Worlds -:- Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 19:33:11 (EST) __________JW -:- Two Seperate Worlds -:- Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 20:54:05 (EST) ____________Another -:- Open Discussion -:- Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 00:35:01 (EST) ______________Scott T. -:- Open what? -:- Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 14:10:26 (EST) ____________Scott T. -:- The God-Man -:- Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 10:54:46 (EST) __Richard -:- Unmitigated nonsense... -:- Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 09:22:49 (EST) ____Another -:- Open yer eyes, er arse -:- Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 17:33:08 (EST) ______Gail -:- Do your reading. -:- Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 18:33:34 (EST) ______Scott T. -:- Open eyes, engage brain. -:- Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 23:27:31 (EST) ______Richard -:- Too many games Another... -:- Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 07:23:02 (EST) Jim -:- Letter FROM Linda Gross -:- Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 22:42:09 (EST) __Gerry -:- Letter FROM Linda Gross -:- Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 22:59:36 (EST) __Brian -:- Letter FROM Linda Gross -:- Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 23:03:22 (EST) ____Jim -:- Letter FROM Linda Gross -:- Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 23:16:44 (EST) ____VP -:- Letter FROM Linda Gross -:- Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 23:21:51 (EST) ____CD -:- EVs role -:- Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 16:02:11 (EST) ______Brian -:- EVs role -:- Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 19:21:55 (EST) ________CD -:- EVs role -:- Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 21:42:03 (EST) __________Jim -:- CDCP Inquiry 8849993 -:- Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 12:43:29 (EST) ____________GAIL -:- CDCP Inquiry 8849993 -:- Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 12:57:55 (EST) ______Richard -:- Memory Failure Alarm....... -:- Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 06:42:15 (EST) __g's mom -:- I like the letter ??? -:- Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 23:56:19 (EST) ____Selena -:- I DON'T like the letter -:- Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 00:14:51 (EST) ______Judex -:- I DON'T like the letter -:- Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 04:33:19 (EST) ____Jim -:- I like the letter ??? -:- Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 00:19:31 (EST) ______G's mom -:- all true but... -:- Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 00:35:44 (EST) ________G's mom -:- cover job...I am SLOW... -:- Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 01:22:21 (EST) ______Selena -:- I like the letter ??? -:- Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 00:46:08 (EST) ________G's mom -:- I am not being clear... -:- Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 00:59:49 (EST) __________Selena -:- I am not being clear... -:- Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 01:09:05 (EST) ____________g's mom -:- thanks I misunderstood you -:- Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 01:18:38 (EST) ______________Selena -:- thanks I misunderstood you -:- Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 01:24:37 (EST) ____________Jim -:- Thanks, Selna -:- Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 13:29:54 (EST) ______________Jim -:- I mean 'Selena' -:- Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 13:57:17 (EST) ________________Selena -:- I mean 'Selena' -:- Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 17:44:15 (EST) __________________Judex -:- to Selena -:- Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 18:38:58 (EST) ____________________Selena -:- to Selena -:- Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 18:43:33 (EST) __KK -:- Letter FROM Linda Gross -:- Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 00:21:32 (EST) ____Jim -:- Letter FROM Linda Gross -:- Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 12:52:03 (EST) ______JW -:- Letter FROM Linda Gross -:- Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 14:07:22 (EST) ________Jim -:- Letter FROM Linda Gross -:- Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 14:48:58 (EST) __________JW -:- Letter FROM Linda Gross -:- Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 21:05:20 (EST) __________Brian -:- Letter FROM Linda Gross -:- Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 19:41:38 (EST) __________900 Foot Jesus -:- Calling Jim Home -:- Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 02:15:54 (EST) ____________Katie -:- Calling Jim Home -:- Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 08:01:32 (EST) ______________.9 Inch J -:- Calling Jim Home -:- Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 11:39:51 (EST) ________________Jim -:- Thank you, JESUS!! -:- Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 11:59:34 (EST) __________________Katie -:- Thank you, JESUS!! -:- Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 20:25:55 (EST) ____________________Shrinking J -:- Thank you, JESUS!! -:- Wed, Jul 08, 1998 at 01:28:58 (EST) ______KK -:- Letter FROM Linda Gross -:- Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 07:54:55 (EST) ________Richard -:- Thanks KK... -:- Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 11:06:34 (EST) __________KK -:- Thanks KK... -:- Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 09:35:16 (EST) ________bb -:- for KK -:- Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 11:17:01 (EST) __________KK -:- for KK -:- Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 09:58:44 (EST) ________JW -:- WOW -:- Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 14:03:21 (EST) __________KK -:- WOW -:- Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 10:00:52 (EST) ____________Jim -:- Joe, that's pathetic -:- Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 11:11:34 (EST) ______________JW -:- Joe, that's pathetic -:- Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 12:33:07 (EST) ________________Rick -:- Joe, that's pathetic -:- Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 12:38:38 (EST) __________________KK -:- Joe, that's pathetic -:- Wed, Jul 08, 1998 at 05:09:06 (EST) ________Jim -:- EVERYONE PLEASE READ! -:- Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 14:35:25 (EST) __________Selena -:- EVERYONE PLEASE READ! -:- Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 15:04:01 (EST) ____________Selena -:- EVERYONE PLEASE READ! -:- Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 10:41:47 (EST) __________Gail -:- Thank you KK -:- Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 15:07:47 (EST) ____________KK -:- Thank you KK -:- Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 10:44:18 (EST) ______________Richard -:- Spouses -:- Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 11:24:53 (EST) ________________Rick -:- Spouses -:- Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 12:14:32 (EST) ________________JW -:- Spouses -:- Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 12:37:16 (EST) ________________KK -:- Spouses -:- Wed, Jul 08, 1998 at 05:28:40 (EST) ______________Richard -:- By the way.. -:- Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 11:31:10 (EST) __________KK -:- EVERYONE PLEASE READ! -:- Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 10:35:27 (EST) ________JW -:- Padarthanand -:- Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 15:11:05 (EST) __________KK -:- Padarthanand -:- Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 10:57:03 (EST) ________g's mom -:- your letter -:- Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 16:47:18 (EST) __________KK -:- your letter -:- Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 11:08:27 (EST) ____________bb -:- KK -:- Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 16:40:19 (EST) ______________KK -:- KK -:- Wed, Jul 08, 1998 at 05:58:24 (EST) ________Jean-Michel -:- Letter FROM Linda Gross -:- Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 17:39:20 (EST) ________Brian -:- Post from KK -:- Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 19:57:30 (EST) __________KK -:- Post from KK -:- Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 11:25:01 (EST) ____________Rick -:- Post from KK -:- Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 11:47:10 (EST) ________Joy -:- Letter FROM Linda Gross -:- Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 20:41:21 (EST) __________KK -:- Letter FROM Linda Gross -:- Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 11:13:48 (EST) ________Robyn -:- Letter FROM Linda Gross -:- Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 20:41:22 (EST) Selena -:- Brian forgive me! -:- Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 20:51:20 (EST) __Selena -:- I was supposed to email this -:- Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 21:11:43 (EST) Gail -:- RT - I've got the CD -:- Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 19:43:53 (EST) __Selena -:- abusing the song thread -:- Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 20:29:19 (EST) __RT -:- Gail,Gail, the 'sangs all here -:- Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 09:29:46 (EST) ____Gail -:- Gail,Gail, the 'sangs all here -:- Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 12:36:18 (EST) |
Date: Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 03:10:35 (EST)
From: You Don't Wan't to Know Email: None To: Everyone Subject: CD be COOL Message: CD is the hidden trailer trash of this site. He seems so calm and disiplined. Sounds like he really is getting something from M & K. I think that is wonderful. Sometimes I wish it would work for all of us that way but then we wouldn't have anything to complain about, would we? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 12:22:36 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: You Don't Wan't to Know Subject: CD be COOL Message: CD is the hidden trailer trash of this site. He seems so calm and disiplined. 'Calm and disciplined' = 'trailer trash'??? You've got your cards mixed up, fella. Besides, CD seems 'calm and disciplined' the way a big goldfish does when it stares at you through the glass wall of the aquarium. Calm? Yes. Disciplined? Well, it DOES stay in the bowl. I guess that counts for something. Sounds like he really is getting something from M & K. Or else why would he say so? Yeah, good point. I never thought of that. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 20:23:18 (EST)
From: knowledge recipient '81 Email: stars@uvic.ca To: Everyone Subject: Been away! What's going on? Message: Well I received knowledge in 1981 in Miami @ the Broadmoor Hotel. I have been away for about 10 years and was just wandering what ever happened to Maharaji. I sort of fell off the edge of the premie world you might say. What the hell happened? I'm beside myself. Somebody fill me in, please. Did this just creep up or was their a disturbing event? To tell you the truth I have wandered about the whole experience but never had a bad experience and believe me, I was around. I was a gopi, service freak, darshan addict and I loved it. The last service gig I had was at the International Instructors Meeting in California. I moved to Northern California and saw Maharaji in San Francisco then bango, off the planet. I would appreciate talking to someone who is not hot-headed. I'm no idiot and I have only fond memories of my premie days, okay. By the way, I know some you guys...heh! heh! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 21:29:11 (EST)
From: CD Email: None To: knowledge recipient '81 Subject: Been away! What's going on? Message: >I have been away for about 10 years and was just wandering what ever happened to Maharaji. I went to programs in Miami (convention center) June 1996, Rome July 1996, Miami May 1998 and Wembley (London) June 1998. And Long Beach in December for the last 4 years. Maharaji is still on tour around the world giving talks. In the last couple years there have been 5 music CDs released by premies. Some people like M, some don't. I went to a K session in 1972 in London. you can call this recorded message number for US event info: 818-889-0500 CD San Diego,CA webmaster@cdickey.com Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 12:25:35 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: CD Subject: CDCP Data Sample 3859 Message: I went to programs in Miami (convention center) June 1996, Rome July 1996, Miami May 1998 and Wembley (London) June 1998. And Long Beach in December for the last 4 years. Maharaji is still on tour around the world giving talks. In the last couple years there have been 5 music CDs released by premies. Some people like M, some don't. I went to a K session in 1972 in London. you can call this recorded message number for US event info: 818-889-0500 Thank you for the fresh sample, Chris. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 08:48:59 (EST)
From: Richard Email: None To: KR'81 and CD Subject: You tell me......... Message: Dear KR'81, CD say's Maharaji is still on tour around the world giving talks. In the last couple years there have been 5 music CDs released by premies. Yup! That's about it really. What did you expect, World Peace? Sorry about the cynicism, KR'81 but there you have it. CD is one of the more eloquent premies who post to this site. Sure I have taken his statment out of context but you can read the whole thing. If you were a 'happening premie' KR'81 then you must surely remember the urgency behind the original message. How it was so important for premies to support Maharaji both financially and in terms of effort. How essential it was for premies to sacrifice anything for Maharaji because he was the only hope for we had. Well, since you are still alive and well you are now aware that the urgency of the situation may well have been slightly over-emphasised. We are now also aware that the knowledge techniques which we were all sworn to keep secret have in fact been common knowledge(sic) all along and were ripped-off, along with a whole raft of cod hindi philosophy, from other sources. Perhaps we should put all this down to experience (being conned that is) and get on with our lives, you might say. Well, whether or not you can is probably down to you but, Maharaji now denies much of what has gone before, has changed his profile to suit new market conditions and blames premies for the bad old days. You really need to read around the site for an in depth view but what do you think? You must have a motive for posting here. Have you really slipped off the premie planet or does that merely reflect your social situation? regards Richard Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 23:40:54 (EST)
From: Carol Email: None To: knowledge recipient '81 Subject: Been away! What's going on? Message: I'm one of the cooler heads around here. Not really angry at all, just feel like I see more clearly want is and isn't true! Read the site and the Journeys entries and join in on some current threads and you'll find all you want to know! Carol Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 00:01:51 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: knowledge recipient '81 Subject: No Marvin Gaye lyrics alowed!! Message: KR81: I'll bet you don't know me? I dropped off the planet long before you ever got on. I've told people here that I think of my premie days as a sort of long vacation. It was also a re-socialization after the uproar of the 60s. But, M is a reactionary uncool fellow. He comes from a fairly progressive tradition in India (of which we were told almost nothing) but his 'adjustments' to that tradition have not been improvements. It would be like improving a house by getting rid of the walls. By the way, it just ocurred to me that the reason why the name 'Guru Maharaj Ji' was such an attractive handle for the family autocrat was for the very simple reason that Kirpal Singh's followers used that title for their leader, and for good or ill Kirpal Singh is a name almost all Indians know. So, even the name was a rip off and an attempt to ride someone elses star. -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 00:09:55 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: I mean 'allowed' Message: The compulsion to edit someone, anyone, even myself, is almost irresistible. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 01:58:17 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: Marvin Gaye rules Message: To Scott: Just LISTEN to the album 'What's Going On?'. It's a great album, IMHO THE seventies soul album, and if you don't have it, I'll tape it for you (or anyone). It sounds like it was recorded yesterday. To KR 81 - I hope you read some of the other stuff on this site - like our 'Journey's' entries, 'Confessions of An Ex-Instructor', and so forth. Then if you have any more questions, which you probably will, please ask. Regards from Katie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 06:16:04 (EST)
From: Judex Email: None To: Katie Subject: Marvin Gaye rules Message: Katie I'd love a copy. I can send the costs of doing & sending it. (Want to build up my music collection) music lover judex Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 08:47:31 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Judex Subject: Just kidding Message: Katie, Judex, KR8: I like Marvin Gaye too. He and Sam Cook died too young. -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 18:01:07 (EST)
From: Gerry Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: Not kidding Message: Sam Cooke- one of my favorites Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 12:36:05 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: Judex Subject: To Judex Message: Judex - is your e-mail working yet? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 03:49:04 (EST)
From: Judex Email: None To: Katie Subject: To Judex Message: Yes it's working now. I had some system probs but now all is well. Got a new version of Explorer too. DId you get my e-mail re visiting Oz? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 03:03:56 (EST)
From: Carol Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: I mean 'allowed' Message: You can edit me if you want(with a wise explanation if needed)! Carol Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 01:10:12 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: Terminology update Subject: Been away! What's going on? Message: Hi, KR81! Were you around when M closed the ashrams and went from being the Lord of the Universe to being a meditation teacher? Did you know that he was embroiled in a legal battle with his mother and brother over control of DLM? Terminology update for you: student=premie master=guru technique number 1=light number 2=music number 3=word number 4=nectar events=festivals/programs videos=satsang EV=DLM (well, close but no cigar!) New EV music=Arti and Lord of the Universe minus the lyrics Darshan=Darshan Maharaji=Prem Pal or Sat Pal (Check out Sat Pals website for more info) If people are happy with M, then good for them. But lots of people are unhappy and want to leave. I like to post here to support these people, not so much out of anger for Maharaji. If you want to learn more you can look into the other pages of the site. (History, etc.) If you want to share this, what kept you out of contact with Maharaji all of these years? VP Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 02:51:21 (EST)
From: tony Email: None To: knowledge recipient '81 Subject: Been away! What's going on? Message: Hi i just started on this forum two days ago. I'm still a practising premie and loving it. Maharaji is alive and well since i last saw him. I laughed when you typed 'since your last premie days', i thought once you have knowledge your were a premie even when you leave? unless you become an ex, even then you can still practise the techniques. have fun Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 16:29:14 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: knowledge recipient '81 Subject: the rest of the story.. Message: KR, If you were so plugged in how'd you fall away so far? Obviously something was happening. One doesn't stop surrendering one's life to a Living Lord and all and not realize it. Do you REALLY have nothing but fond memories of your premie days? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jul 08, 1998 at 00:42:16 (EST)
From: KR 81 Email: stars@uvic.ca To: Jim Subject: the rest of the story.. Message: Yes Jim, I really have nothing but fond memories. I moved to Marin county and made my way to Sonoma where I was really involved in in a job and I did not know any premies in that area. There was many times I thought of Maharaji (fondly) but felt that my apron strings were being cut and when it was time to see M again, well, I would. But it didn't happen. Remember we used to call M the concept bomb! Well, it looks like this is the BIG ONE! I will try and get back to all those you answered me. Thanks Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 19:03:56 (EST)
From: seymour Email: seymour_t@rocketmail.com To: Everyone Subject: secret world Message: Hi y'all, Have any of you ex's listened recently to 'Secret World' by Peter Gabriel (I have to admit I am a bit of a fan). It's about the break up of a relationship and, although I know it's not intentional, there are a few lines that could have been written about leaving GM:- 'In this house of make believe You put out and I receive' We all must have loved Guru Maharji at one time. I remember feeling so high that the living Satguru had come to take me home, feeling totally protected, in the right place with the right person at the right time - a lot like being in love, only this time with someone who was the incarnation of the omniscient, omnipotent, infinite, supreme being. It seemed to be a 'you win, I win' situation, everyone seemed to be benefit, GM having his devotees worship him rather than crucify him as we once did, and us lot 'at the feet of the master' Nobody who did not have knowledge could ever appreciate the wonder of it all and we felt pity for them in their ordinary world while we were attending festivals, going to satsang, meditating... 'In our secret world we were colliding What was it we were thinking of?' I wish I could feel more mad than sad but like a lot of us living precariously on this third rock from the sun there is nothing I would rather than to wake up to another reality where kindness, justice and joy predominated. In this world,even though there may be much beauty in life there is always the Sword of Damacles in the form of illness, poverty, betrayal and death somewhat putting the dampers on our enjoyment of it. GM offered a way out. He said he could take us along the yellow brick road and I, for one, felt at times that I was on it. Unfortunately there was no Father Christmas... 'Seeing things that were not there On a wing, on a prayer.' ...and even though I feel a bit more 'grown up' now, I can't help wishing there was. Cheers, Seymour. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 19:17:21 (EST)
From: Gail Email: freedom@gtn.net To: seymour Subject: secret world Message: Me too! It's kind of hard to get into this atheist thing. It would be nice to wake up and find ourselves blasted. We really thought we were on to something. As it turns out, there is absolutely nothing to believe in. It seems a lot harder to get out of things than it is to get into them. MJ created a whole in us and planted himself and his beliefs in everything we do. None of us will ever be the same. As you can see, people who have not been involved for 15 years are posting here, partly to help others and partly to help themselves. As David Simpkiss indicated, 'Where is our Lord this dark night? God help us all.' Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 19:47:33 (EST)
From: seymour Email: None To: Gail Subject: secret world Message: Hello Gail, It is late and very dark here in the UK but 'Where is our Lord this dark night? God help us all.' and 'there is absolutely nothing to believe in' is maybe going a bit over the top. I know what you mean though. However despite feeling a bit melancholic I do feel there is something beyond the dog eat dog world. I have no idea what it is but even though life stinks most of the time, I feel there may be some rhyme and reason to it all. Whatever method I use in future to discover a path through the slings and arrows will, I hope, be based on truth rather than wishfull thinking. G'night Seymour. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 21:20:15 (EST)
From: Sir David Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: seymour Subject: secret world Message: Please note anyone, that my email address is not the one on my journey entry about this darkened night. My correct email address is the one on this post. I must tell Brian to change it on my journey's entry. To clear up some confusion; I am Sir David, full name David Simpkiss and sometimes known as Cheddar or Cheeseman etc. There are one or two other Davids who post here; David Stirling uses d@vid and then there's a David F also. There's much to get happy about after M and K. Myself, although I suffer from various health problems and disabilities I have found that the real treasure in my life are the people in it. I had a great evening with my children and they keep me young. This weekend I went to see friends in Bournemouth and saw their 8 month old son for the first time and became completely entranced by him. We had a good time banging the table together at dinner. FDor me, the love that is shared between people is the most rewarding and purposeful thing. It's not something Maharaji teaches. I do meditate but not all the time. Sometimes I find myself meditating in my dreams! It's a good personal experience meditation and I'm glad I cut Maharaji out of it. Also I feel no hesitation in telling people how to do it if they're interested. Tonight I went for a late drive in my new car, into the Kent countryside and over the North Downs. With some good music playing on my car stereo it was very atmospheric. Yes, music is a great thing. A very uplifting feeling that we all share and understand. It's cool man. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 08:25:21 (EST)
From: Becky Email: None To: Gail Subject: atheism Message: Dear Gail, moving away from MJ doesn't meaning no longer feeling the beauty of life, and the force of truth, and a strange, mysterious guidance that makes your heart melt. I feel that without MJ. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 10:42:47 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Becky Subject: atheism Message: Dear Gail, moving away from MJ doesn't meaning no longer feeling the beauty of life, and the force of truth, and a strange, mysterious guidance that makes your heart melt. I feel that without MJ. And moving away from superstition about a 'strange, mysterious guidance that makes your heart melt' doesn't mean no longer feeling the beauty of life either. It just means using your brain a little more, sweeping out cenutries of misconception. I feel that without 'spirituality'. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 11:26:13 (EST)
From: Becky Email: None To: Jim Subject: atheism Message: I can tell I'm really getting on your nerves Jim. Maybe I am still the same old idealist that I always was. What are you thoughts/feelings/beliefs on 1. spirits 2. the soul 3. possession? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 15:14:03 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Becky Subject: atheism Message: Becky, You're not getting on my nerves....you're just...okay, you're getting on my nerves. Sorry, nothing personal, it's just, well, okay -- 1) Spirits? no old jokes about booze or anything. No, 'spirits' don't exist, as far as I'm concened. 2) the soul? no, nothing independent of the mind. 3) possession? of course not. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 15:11:19 (EST)
From: Becky Email: None To: Jim Subject: atheism Message: fine. I'm not going to get into a massive, labyrinthine discussion. personally, spirits are for me and many others something very real ( and from my own experience pretty freaky sometimes!) Anyway, you have your beliefs, I have mine etc. etc. Atleast we have one thing in common: we know that Maharaji can actually ruin people's ability to trust invisible forces, and to trust their own sixth sense, intuition, mind, perception, judgement etc. This is why I do not throw out the baby with the bathwater. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 23:41:21 (EST)
From: Judex Email: None To: seymour Subject: secret world Message: seymour loved what you had to say. remember in Oz the characters had to realise they always had what they thought they were missing. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 06:33:24 (EST)
From: seymour Email: None To: Judex Subject: secret world Message: Nice one Judex - 'remember in Oz the characters had to realise they always had what they thought they were missing.' I suppose GM would say that we never would have found it without the master. What did we find anyway? I agree with most of your thoughts David especially 'the love that is shared between people is the most rewarding and purposeful thing' and I enjoy the same things as you family, friends, music etc. ( don't we all) but, and this may sound like the heavy satsang of the old days, it all comes to an end. We will become separated from those we love and no matter how good we feel at any one time - we are bound to suffer from a dose of 'outrageous fortune' sooner or later. BTW I was thinking lately of that phrase 'there but for the grace of god' and how strange it is that we think that we are more deserving of grace than some other poor soul. Surely it can't be grace that keeps our heads above water? I suppose the point I was making is that we all have these fears and that it does not require much of a sales pitch to persuade us that we could have a better life. It's like GM is saying that he has a system that, if you stick to it, will eventually come up with the winning lottery numbers. Unfortunately it doesn't and he is preying on peoples' insecurity. Do you think he knows this? i.e. that the knowledge does not actually help to understand life and, at best, is a placebo that only works because you believe it will. Or do you think he is just as much a victim of his upbringing and conditioning as the rest of us? As Joy says 'I sometimes wonder if Maharaji himself isn't held hostage by the whole thing, trapped by the monster he has created, wanting to lead a normal life but still having to play Perfect Master to support himself and his family' Cheers Seymour Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 06:53:41 (EST)
From: Sir David Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: seymour Subject: How I see it Message: My beliefs are such, that I don't prescribe to the notion that happiness can be taken away. I shared much love with my step sister before she died last year. She's gone from this plane but I have no doubt that I'll see her again when my time comes. While it's obvious that we all die at different times, I don't personally believe that's the end to it. Those we loved here, we will love again in the next world. The pain of seperation we suffer when they go can perhaps teach us something. Now I know that these kind of ideas are not going to be popular on a forum dominated by atheists but they are how I genuinely feel. I'd be lying if I said otherwise. So I don't prescribe to the idea that if those we love are gone, that they are gone forever. Perhaps we knew them before we came here and we'll know them after we've all gone. I have had much 'taken away' in my life. I can no longer do the things I used to take for granted because of health problems and disabilities. Why, even typing is difficult and painful for me. But love cannot be taken away. And love is stronger than death. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 07:18:15 (EST)
From: Sir David Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: Seymour Subject: How I see it - part 2 Message: I think that Maharaji knows for himself that his knowledge doesn't cure all ills and is not something that ca make people happy all the time. I think Maharaji gets off on having devotees but doesn't experience much from meditation. His lifestyle would suggest that. Yes I do think that Maharaji is a victim of the whole circus he was born into. It's a bizarre thing, to grow up with people believing you are God. In my better moments I can see Maharaji with some sympathy and understanding. As his western mission grinds to a halt I can understand how he must feel. But I wouldn't lose any sleep over it. He will have to learn, like the rest of us, that the tide does turn in the end. I remember Dennis Skinner in the last opening of Parliement in which Margaret Thatcher was Prime Minister. Big Ben rang out loud and clear and Dennis shouted, 'The bell tolls for thee Maggie!' A small empire crumbles before his eyes and he has no power to stop it. But I hope, that rather than blame the premies, he will learn something profound about all that has happened. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 11:43:37 (EST)
From: seymour Email: None To: Sir David Subject: How I see it - part 2 Message: Hi David, There does seem to be some intuitive feeling that there there is more to life and death than meets the eye. Although I was brought up a Catholic and believed in heaven, hell, limbo etc. I cannot now believe such things but I try and keep an open mind. The pantheist perspective is about as close as I can get to a life after death. I think this means that the physical returns to the earth to become part of the carbon/nitrogen? cycle and the mental joins some sort of collective consciousness. I do not like surmising any of this though, as past experience has taught me to build knowledge on firm foundations rather than hopes and superstition which is what I regard most 'psychic' stuff to be. I believe in evolution and that although there might not be a god at the moment maybe we will evolve into gods. As far as the theories that claim that god must exist because of the symmetry and complexity of the universe I can't see the logic. Why couldn't it be some reactive, unconscious force like gravity that has caused it all to happen? All this doesn't stop me searching for an answer - it's just not in things like prayer and meditation ( not that I have anything against meditation I just don't believe it can provide any answers or make you a better person). You say that GM's 'western mission grinds to a halt'. What makes you think this? Most of the premies I know are steadfast in their devotion and I think it would take a long time before there weren't enough devotees to provide house and keep for their Lord. He could sell up tomorrow and live a life of luxury. Anyhow thanks for the food for thought. Cheers Seymour Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 03:39:52 (EST)
From: Judex Email: None To: Sir David Subject: How I see it - part 2 Message: . But I hope, that rather than blame the premies, he will learn something profound about all that has happened. David I have similar feelings now about Maharaji. (it may change I guess). But I feel that to completely hate and dump on the man would be for me to lose sight of what MY FEELINGS I invested in loving him, which I do not want to devalue. It was a feeling of love, not really 'less than' - a bit of awe at times, but I loved that feeling in me. I am sad for what has happened - like that Love's Labor Lost quote someone posted - but I don't feel damaged by the experience (at the moment anyway) because I don't reject the whole experience as a farce or a lie or a joke. I have learnt what I needed/wanted to learn from it & I feel very optimistic and grateful about life right at the moment. This forum has helped significantly - seeing others who have made the transition. And if I want to be lenient, I can tell myself that a good master always gives the student a shove out the door when the time is right (or that the student gives the master the shove!). and I don't deny that I was his student. Just no longer. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 03:59:20 (EST)
From: Judex Email: None To: Judex Subject: How I see it - part 3 Message: I just have to change something I said in the post, which isn't correct. It was a feeling of love, not really 'less than' - a bit of awe at times, but I loved that feeling in me. I feel now that I am not less than Maharaji - but at the time I was following him, especially when I was an aspirant at times I felt like the lowest of the low & he was my saviour...I did pray to him a few times but mostly I liked to think of him as 'god's agent'. I couldnt ever accept that he was literally god, though I heard some people say they believed it. I just didn't understand what they meant. But I certainly felt a god-like feeling about him. Words cant describe it anyway. So it's easy in retrospect with my new-found equilibrium to make hasty statements like the above, sorry about that. I was quite different not so long ago. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 06:17:17 (EST)
From: Sir David Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: Judex & Seymour Subject: Grinding to a beginning Message: Well Seymour, what I meant by Maharaji's mission grinding to a halt in the west was that less and less people are receiving K over here and people are leaving at a faster rate than what new people are getting involved. It's a mission in reverse, so to speak. I don't think this forum will help things much either. I wrote 'Love's labour lost' Judex. I can't remember what it said now so I'll have to look in the archives to see what I wrote. Mind you, it's a bit like looking for a needle in a haystack. Over here everyone's getting sick of the childish antics of the Orange men and what they are doing to wreck the peace process in Ulster. Now that's real life if you're living over there and it puts Maharaji's little world into perspective. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 18:24:08 (EST)
From: Gail Email: None To: Judex Subject: Believe it or not? Message: There isn't much to believe in. If you can't see it, it ain't so. About three days before my mother died she told me that she didn't mind leaving my daughter and me anymore. She also said that she didn't need to believe in a god anymore. She actually was a saint in MJ terms--totally detached from everything. We can all leave as saints now that we don't have to think of old GOOMER on our last breath. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 02:08:22 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: Sir David Subject: Religious preferences Message: I don't think this forum is dominated by atheists. (Well, maybe one-snicker!) I think that there are plenty of agnostics (unsures) and also people like you who still believe in God. There are also Christians, Buddists, and even premies here. It is amazing how people with many different backgrounds and beliefs came to believe the same dogma under M. Now that we are all thinking for ourselves, we all have our own opinions about our spirituality or lack of it. I, for one, appreciate hearing your beliefs. I don't think popularity is really that important. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 07:56:15 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: VP Subject: Religious preferences Message: Hi Veep and David - As far as I know there are only three confirmed atheists on the forum. (One is extremely vocal! Maybe this makes them appear dominant?) Most of the rest of us appear to be agnostics - some lean towards the atheistic side and some towards the deistic side. I personally am a deistic agnostic. Also, as VP said, there are many other spiritual beliefs and practices represented on the forum - people usually just don't tend to talk about them. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 15:06:28 (EST)
From: Becky Email: None To: Katie Subject: Religious preferences Message: Yes, I seem to be right in Jim's firing line. Boy, I hate religious arguments. You could go on and on and on etc. etc.. If one takes the ESSENCE of any religion one can find something very pure and beautiful. One has to use one's brain and rise above the dross of dogma and narrow-mindedness. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 16:28:35 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Becky Subject: Religious preferences Message: If one takes the ESSENCE of any religion one can find something very pure and beautiful. Becky, the only reason we're talking Islam here is because you brought it up. Mind you, I'm glad you did because I like you and it gives me a chance to try to help you out a bit. Only then, will you begin sending me money. :) The essence of most religions is a combination of three things: 1) an attempt to answer the mysteries of life; 2) a set of guidelines for daily life; and 3) a more abstract moral doctrine. There are perfectly valid psychological reasons for mankind traditionally creating religions to serve these ends. None of them, however, lend any credence to the religion itself. To the contrary. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 11:14:01 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Is Kevin Costner a premie? Message: Hi: Just watched the ill-fated movie The Postman which had me on the edge of my seat, wondering about that fine line between drama and foolishness. Did Herr Costner not have anyone around him who could say with any credibility, 'Kevin, this is a really dumb idea right on top of another dumb idea (Waterworld).' I mean, it's not like it's a close call or anything. There wasn't five minutes in the entire movie that was not embarrassingly lame. That alone was worth the price of renting the video. Does anyone know if Costner's slide into oblivion is the result of too much cocaine, or is he a devotee of some mind numbing Swami Ji? Road Warrior it's not, and it's even further from the granddaddy of the genre Canticle for Liebowitz (which has never been made into a movie as far as I know). -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 18:08:43 (EST)
From: Selena Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: Is Kevin Costner a premie? Message: I once read a movie review, probably for Waterworld, where they described Costner as Mr. Nebutal. I agree, he is awful, what happened? I really liked Bull Durham but Susan Sarandon may have been the reason. One of my favorite quotes comes from Bull Durham: 'This world was made for those not cursed with a sense of self-awareness' Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 20:07:16 (EST)
From: TD Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: Is Kevin Costner a premie? Message: Actually, Big Kev came out to Oz to do the publicity rounds for the Postman when it came out. It's an accepted fact that when a big Hollywood name comes to our shores to flog a movie, it's because their movie is usually absolute CRAP! Billy Crystal didn't come here when City Slickers came out but he did when City Slickers 2 did!! He suddenly was everywhere! I could not believe when I read on some old forums that Michael Bolton was a premie. If I'd known that before I became a premie, I'm sure I would have 'seen the light' and run a mile (ha-ha!) Regards, Dances with Darshan Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 09:51:06 (EST)
From: Judex Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Poster's Blues... Message: Been thinking about how to me all of us here are doing so well to have left what we perceive as/know to be a cult. What a major step that is to take. And so many good people post here - I feel like saying thanks to every single one. I know I for one am certainly not perfect but that's not what it's about I guess (thankgod)! I'll leave that to the satguru (or his dreams). I always worry about my 'dark' side but maybe that's just a shadow of the past (hopefully is) and it's time to let go of the fears. Maybe I analyse too much also. Just want to say you have all helped me, every one including those I disagree with and how can I not be greatful? I wouldnt be talking to most people about Maharaji, the heart, the way within, the light, over a capuccino....I don't think. Hope any negative or useless stuff can be forgiven or if not forgotten. (This must be'My Fingers have forgotten who my Eyeballs are' Blues) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 12:38:56 (EST)
From: Selena Email: None To: Judex and everyone Subject: Independence Day Everyone Message: My Fingers have forgotten who my Eyeballs are' Blues That's great. Well, I guess no one said freedom was always easy. 6 months VP!! To think, about a year ago I was in Santa Monica looking at M the 'meditation teacher/guru/lord and master/God. What a year this has been. Thank you all so much for all the support and insight and also for just plain putting up with me. Selena - going down the road to see small town fireworks and drink beer and feel grateful Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 20:02:39 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Selena Subject: Independence Day Everyone Message: Yeah, Independence Day, or the celebration of independence. You know, to both Selena and Judex, I want you to know I really appreciate that fact that you both are willing to share how you are feeling. I know it's not easy, but it reminds me what it felt like to leave the cult, and it reinforces my gratitude that I got out when I did. Selena, I will never forget the day you posted on the forum for the first time and talked about the Long Beach program and the feelings you were having. And it was so great to see you, as Joy said, use your BRAIN to pull yourself out. And Judex, I also remember the day you went from 'Jude' to 'Judex.' I know it wasn't easy, but it was sure great you see you take those steps with such openness and sincerity. So, Happy Independence Day to both of you!!!! Joe Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 01:36:19 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: Selena Subject: Independence Day Everyone Message: Selena, It's very late here and I should be in bed, but I read your post above and I can't believe it has been 6 months. It's a short time considering that I have been thinking about knowledge and maharaji off and on for 27 years. (In my first post here, I said 25, but I have recalculated that.) Even though I didn't do some of the things that you guys did as premies, I have had the same belief system that many people posting here have had for a very long time. I.E. there is a life force, a living master (that was in question all the time with me, though), etc. You know, Jesus taught this knowledge (sorry, Mickey-haha!) Really, it has been so wonderful to know the truth and yet sometimes so horrible to let go of things I wanted to believe. Like Santa Claus, the tooth fairy, and elves... But the past six months has been a loooooooooooooong time coming. I went to a barbeque today at a lake with some of the most wonderful people. Our kids ran around and played outside. The weather was beautiful. I enjoyed my life so much today. I drank a beer in honor of Selena, Judex, Gail, Becky, and everyone else who is getting their lives back in 1998. After 6 months there ARE better times ahead. John K. says that I am eternally nine, according to the cult rules, (snicker) but everyday I feel like more of a real grown up. VP Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 10:25:36 (EST)
From: Gail Email: None To: VP Subject: Independence Day Everyone Message: Thank you, VP. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 10:35:27 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: VP Subject: Independence Day Everyone Message: VP: Had lunch yesterday with John K in Oldtown. We had Spanish 'tampas.' It was a good visit, and we walked around Oldtown a lot (mostly because I was lost). Great way to spend Independence Day, with another ex. -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 20:47:59 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: Spending time w/an ex Message: Scott, That sounds like a great time. Is he as funny in person as he is on the forum? Are you? I will be meeting Katie in a few days. I can't wait. VP Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 21:50:21 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: VP Subject: Spending time w/an ex Message: VP: He's very clever, and reasonably sober. We're all funnier in this medium. Have a good visit with Katie. -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 09:44:01 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Scott T. Subject: Spending time w/an ex Message: Dear Scott, Speak for yourself dear, I am funny in person also! Love, Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 10:05:22 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Robyn Subject: Spending time w/an ex Message: Robyn: Speak for yourself dear, I am funny in person also! I don't doubt it for a minute, but then you're a professional. -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 09:45:54 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: VP Subject: meeting Katie Message: Dear VP, I jealous! Just kidding, a little. Now it is I who is out of the loop! :) Love, Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 03:02:37 (EST)
From: Carol Email: None To: VP Subject: Got K on July 4th 1972 Message: I guess I'm eternally 21 then. I got K from Rajeshwar on July 4th 1972. This year for the first time in 26 years, I am independent! Carol Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 22:26:45 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Carol Subject: Got K on July 4th 1972 Message: Dear Carol, How have you been, girl, you've been on my mind? Love, Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 05:42:46 (EST)
From: Another Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Dyslexia Message: Jim, I told you!! I am spell check challenged. The word is obfuscate and I'm certain you know exactly what I meant. (Yes, I wax dyslexic on a regular basis) You do tend to browbeat and belittle those who may waver or seem to be leaning away from the deprogramming aspect of this site. Getting into the basics of our little battle of the bands, would require at least some objectivity. Alas, neither you or I, (I am not using nor, in defference to poor dead King Arthur) seem to have much of that at all. What we do have is ample fodder for our expressive cannon's. I understand those who hail this site as their 'Refuge'. Fine, I hope it gives them comfort. I understand that I appear to be a contrarian with respect to the goals (implied or otherwise), contained in this webssite's archives. I understand that much of what I have posted is unwanted, unappreciated, unsolicited and very unwelcomed by most of those logging on here. I apologize, but there is truely another side to this story. I must however, give you quarter as the 'Tacit Leader' even though many are pointing out my error. (Respects to all, we are nothing if not EQUALS) You folks have every right to please each other, guide each other, need each other and cohabitate through bits and bites for as long as one can imagine. You also have every right to flame, complain, defame, shame, name names, dain, explain, expose, cajole, mold and otherwise, tear the living shit out of Mahharaji. There are ample snippits from those who were premies, which point to deep sadness, bitter, bitter disappointments, wrenching misgivings, joy at being individuals again(?) but most of all, TIME, which was lost and apparantly wasted during their tenure as followers. I am deeply sorry for those persons and I wish to you all, that healing you are seeking or have found. And yes, I try to be at least as clever and as sarcastic as you JH esq, and yes, I admit grammer and spelling are hard won when I communicate but, I offer the following elementals which one might possibly compare as analegeous and contemporaneous to all of the issues fosterd by the collective, assembled to drink from this 'Oasis' of the internet. Telling you of those extra-psycic and verifiable occurences which brought me to Knowledge would be tedious and dismissed. Let's just say they are allowable under the 'X' File's rules of engagment. My mystic and socioeconomic flavorings aside, certain criteria exist with regard to how truth has been taught throughout the ages. The historicity: (Thanks to Newt Gingrich for the catch phrase) Most all of those writings which survive as Mythologies and Religious text, contain commonalities with regard to the base elements driving the belief supported in their respective pages. There was usually a Teacher. Ordinarily foisted into the position of God incarnate, Son of God, Messenger of God, Messsiah, Seer, Mystic, Recluse, Avatar, Master, Rabbi, I think we get the picture. Most of the time, these people lived lives which aside from the occasional miracle worker (Jesus and Mithras are claimed to have raised themselves from the dead after being killed for teaching the Word of God), were remarkable only because they impacted their respective civilazations and geographies, with a specific message or teachings about, Peace, Truth, Nirvana, Heaven or other such nonsense. Normally these groups developed as colloquial sects. But, there are ample era and writings depicting these time frames, left behind to create those religions we have all come to know and love. Most of the time these teachings did not become nationalized, although several did, including certain Egyptian, Hebrew, Christian, Moslem, Hindu, Greek, Chineese, Tibetian, ad nauseum. (Hell, even the pre-christian era of the Americian Missippi valley had a Master who taught 'The Good Word' and 'The Inner Light')(One theory states that Adam, was actually a series of leaders and no, I don't think Eve gave birth to Cain's kids). So based on that tenet, is there such a thing as a 'God' incarnate? Let us deem it, possible. Other incidentals such as the actual teaching, being given by word of mouth, in secret, from the teacher to a student, The Light, Sound, God's Name or Word and the Ambrosia or Manna are more or less rampant throughout these tales and legends. If we examine the historical data at face value, we can assume at least the possibility, that such a thing as a 'God' in human form, (Might, Could be, Perhaps, Possibly) can exist. What are the odds? Given the fact (Premise, Surmisation, Guess, Estimation) that these traditions usually allow only one 'God' to teach about one God, during a given period of time, we arrive at the mathmatical solution of ONE in SIX BILLION. Now comes the clincher, because these 'Incarnates' are supposed to be hovering in a state of inner perfection, (Even whilst they sleep) By deeming them to be susceptible or conditional to human circumstance, as a standard issue mortal would be, is error number one. The basics only allow for the traditional aspect that this individual(HE or SHE) although partaking of the human life experiences is non the less always going to be 'Not Quite Human'. I believe this is expressed in the recent posting from Hans Yog Prakesh but, more ancient and widespred writings support this point of view. Following this 'Theory', when we are around one of these teachers, their individual behavior will be perceived, literally by those who interact with this Mentor. If the beholder sees negatives and wants justification about an Avatar's shortcomings, these will manifist and that also is contained in the writtrn record. (Ram, Khrisna, Buddah, Jesus, Mohammed, Moses they all had detractors) For many in these postings, this will be a validation and I accept that. If Maharaji has: not included, confused, precluded, refused, misused, diffused, schmoozed, stewed, screwed, fried, lied, imbibed, slighted or blighted you, that is between he and you. At the same time, regardless of these flaws, these Incarnations will intend, to bring the presence of this 'GOD' which they carry in them to every mother's son and daughter on the planet, period.(Anyone see the Terminator? 'You don't understand, that's all he does') By most historical data this thing, is purported to allow the initiate an experience of Immortal dimension, Heaven on Earth and as our poster, child, with only an Eleventh grade education, said the other evening, Yada, Yada. We will call it Knowledge after the Greek word GNOSIS. The Gnostics were the first to rebel against the Paul over the issue of whether Heaven was within or should be put into some golden Altered box and only let out on Sunday. Recall if you will, the fried ones who have dropped away. Why do they leave? I can't speak for them but I'll give long odds that they never really 'Got' it.(As in understanding) Hell Jimbo, I didn't even start to practice until 1990 and I was initiated back when you were. And guess what, Knowledge has and continues to knock my fucking socks off and kicks my ass on a daily basis. In fact, because of the purity which allows me to experience Infinity, my arrogance has somewhere to reflect upon itself (No mean feat, as you can tell from my postings) So go ahead, argue with history. Shit Jim, look at it from the outside for a moment, If, such a thing as an incarnate exists, and He came into a modern society, guided by those around him, subject to influences of power and other human foibles, Transgressed and or otherwise didn't fullfil some post 60's expectation of a perfect sociological planner, Crapped out during training and ran the thing ass backwards, Finally figured as his body began to mature, that elements and vestiges and procedure set in motion with the aid and supplementation of those from the west (Who were supposed to fucking know these things, people like Mischler who stated' Nectar is a state of mind' for Christ's sake), ad infinitum. Found out after several campaigns run by the 'Core Elite' that people thought premies (And especially Knowledge) were whacko's. (I know we both qualify for this one). Shit canned the arcane (Ashrams, Doti's, Saffron Armies) and got with the program. (No pun intended) So what! So what, if a lot of people are disgusted and disillusioned. So what if he has human anomalies which preclude him in your eyes from the Master's Hall of Fame. During this time he has never wavered from speaking, seeing, doing and implementing the primary function of presenting this 'Peace' to the entire world. You know how intense it is to be around him 24 hours a day. (Need to be un-fried for that duty and many have tried and burnt like toast, as you well know) At what cost? That is for each individual to decide. After all this is the last judgement were discussing here isn't it, deciding if Truth is your cup of tea I mean. Feed the Children, Water the desert, Save the Whales, pick a focus. I vote for the heart, like it or not, this wisdom is all that stands between mankind and oblivious. Thanks Jim, for allowing me to post in your cyberface space. I'm not sure I need continue posting here after this one.(I can almost hear the collective sigh of relief) Not that I accept your direction, I don't. I feel cheated by your and several of my more local, old friends demise from this experience but hey, we all have our crosses to bear now don't we. I just wish you folks would drop the pretense and remember why you asked for this gift in the first place. Apologies for anyone who has taken umbrege to my recent stint as foil to Jim but he really has been a bit of a bully at times and I don't mean our personal exchanges either. I really do consider us all children of the heart. True and Free, Another Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 07:24:46 (EST)
From: Judex Email: None To: Another Subject: Dyslexia Message: To me it has been very enjoyable reading your post. To have a discourse rather than an argument I would think takes elements(stated/clarified/agreed upon)like - the intention (to seek/prove/discuss etc, eg: the truth?) - comprehensive content eg factual/anecdotal/historical material is needed to give content & pespective - patience/willingness to see the other's view point (empathy) I suppose this is like saying: why, where, how, who & what (why are we saying this, where are we saying it, how are we saying it, to whom are we saying it and what are we saying?) So if there is room here for discourse, I would be interested in what others have to say in reply to you. Anyway for my self, thank you for keeping the question alive, as to what 'is' (such as, god)and making an opening for another interesting conversation! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 08:04:35 (EST)
From: Gail Email: None To: anyone Subject: Definition of a Premie Message: Inquirer: What's the definition of a premie? MJ: A human being with no reason or accountability. (yea, I borrowed it.) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 09:26:12 (EST)
From: Jethro Email: cadbury@compuserve.com To: Another Subject: Dyslexia Message: ''True and Free'' But not free enough to say your name. What are you afraid of? Jethro Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 12:37:09 (EST)
From: Joy Email: None To: Another Subject: Dyslexia Message: Another, do you talk like this in real life? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 13:01:03 (EST)
From: bftb Email: None To: Another Subject: Dyslexia-perspective Message: You know,alot of things are about perspective.Is the glass half empty or half full?Is the word dyslexic or cixelsyd? I had lunch with a collegue and old friend yesterday.This guy had been an aspirant for around a month in '78 or '79.M and this website came up at some point in the discussion.This guy asks(I should mention that this guy thinks M is an absolute charlatan after only $$$.Period.-that's HIS perspective)'What exactly are the most pissed off people pissed off about?' I thought to myself that there are a lot of things but the first thing I said was 'Well,one beef some people have is that he said he was god in human form,they believed it,and according to his instructions they moved into his ashrams and now feel that they wasted many years as celibate devotees of a guy who they feel turned out not to be god and in fact is just a fraud.They feel beyond ripped off'His immediate reaction was 'well....if they were so stupid as to believe that con man and waste all that time then screw them.They're dumb and they got what you get when you're that dumb.'(he probably meant naive but he chose to use the word dumb) So,perspective.Here's a guy who insists that M's a fraud yet he has no sympathy for any ex's complaints.In that sense he shares the sentiments of a lot of premies but from a radically different perspective. How about the way M says that it's not such a good idea to talk about your experience(s) surrounding the world of K.Well an ex could point to that as proof of this being a cult.A premie could say that it's actually really good advice because a)if you're going to talk about it with other premies then you'll be putting ideas into each others heads and really you oughtta just experience your experience for your own self and not worry about what experience anyone else is having.This whole thing is very personal and is for you and you alone. b)if you talk to non-premies about your experiences you will inevitably be misunderstood and/or ridiculed and that ain't helping anyone involved,so;like jesus told mary'tell others not what you've seen' or something like that. Speaking for myself,when I started trying to explain an experience or two that I'd had to this friend at lunch yesterday I very quickly became an object of ridicule and realised I should probably just shut up about it at that point. It's like trying to explain the psychedelic experience to someone who's never had it.It's kind of futile. So is it 'shut up' because I want to control EVERYTHING or is it 'shut up' because it won't get you anywhere? Perspective! How about M's perspective on this web site? Is it the worst thing that ever happened to the mission or the best? If he's sincere then this site is a good thing because he can learn how people really feel about what he does and,again,if he's sincere he could use the information to his advantage and perhaps adjust his M.O. a little bit to ease all the concerns.This website presents a golden opportunity for the best 'customer feedback research'.And it's free!Gathering info. like this would cost EV loads of money in the real world. It's all about perspective. I think. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 14:09:28 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: bftb Subject: bif's friend is a hypocrite Message: The reason I say that is that he, too, fell for some measure of this bullshit if he actually came back to satsang for a full month. There are LOTS of people who would consider anyone actually intersted in a then-late-adolescent avatar preposterously naive. Further, your friend doesn't seem to understand that ANYONE can get trapped. All it takes is that one moment when you flirt a little too close with the 'You-are-not-your-mind' philosophy. That's it. Can happen to anyone. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 14:58:59 (EST)
From: bftb Email: None To: bftb Subject: Dyslexia-perspective pt.2 Message: One minute I'm a wavering something floating in the wind wondering whether or not this thing's really a cult,and the next minute I find something like this: http://www.csj.org/checklis.html (It's a 'checklist of cult characteristics') Interesting.What's a fence sitter to do? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 14:33:34 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Another Subject: Hypoglycemia Message: Yes, favourite conditions of the seventies. How could I forget? No, seriously, I, too, appreciate your post somewhat. At least I understand you this time (although you still lay it on a little thick [i.e. verbosely] at times). Whatever. That's not important. What DOES matter is your view of history. You think that because people have deified other people over time there must be something to it. Well a lot of people share that view. I know I sure did when I got k. At my first festival, Guru Puja 73 in London, the hall had big paintings of a lot of the past 'avatars' running up and down both sides. This was, I believe, brought from India. I didn't recognize more than one or two -- you can always spot Jesus or Buddha in a crowd -- but the ponit was there: this kind of shit happens all the time. That gave me a lot of foundation for trusting Maharaji. I mean, once you get to the point where you're actually thinking 'if it's not him, then who IS the living Satguru?' then you're already hooked. But, Another, that historical fact, which I, too, accept, is just a reflection of man's ignorance. Religion, as you probably know, likely started with simple ancestor worship. All this other avatar stuff is just an extension of that. It's bullshit. An illusion. I imagine that the most primitive societies have worshipped everything about their leaders as 'divine'. Body, mind, his sheep, his land, even his colours -- all divine. Then, over time, these socieites have to deal with their divine leader's mortality. The world gets bigger for them, people learn of other 'divine' leaders in other valleys... okay, so his body's not divine. He's still the wisest man around and speaks with and for all other gods, or whatever. Of course that falls by the wayside too, soon enough. You get the picture? What's so interesting about Maharaji is that he himself took us through a bunch of these steps of diminishing avatar divinty in just a few decades. Back in the early seventies we worshipped his body as divine, drinking his bathwater which, was potent with holiness if we drank even one molecule that had ever touched his golden form. And his words? Every last laugh and stutter were considered divine utterances. Maharaji really pushed this view. Check out some of his old satsangs. Now he's retreated so far that he won't even talk about it anymore. Premies are left imagining that there's some little spark of something special in him OR that he's anything and everything they're comfortable believing becuase, after all, there WAS Kabir or ... well, think about Shri Hans. Oh come on, this is all bullshit. Knowledge? Knowledge is a party trick. It feels good to zone out of your thoughts on your built--in white noise. That's it. Is it profound? No more than nature's profound. It's just there and serves as a very flexible backdrop for our own emotional and mental projections. Track down and read The Lucifer Principle if you get a chance. I got a copy from Amazon books. This religion shit has just been a way for mankind to codify and enforce its evolving morality and for people to wrest power away from one another and 'Lord' it over each other. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 19:26:18 (EST)
From: seymour Email: None To: Jim Subject: Hypoglycemia Message: Another good post Jim ( although I hope you ego will not be too boosted, you know it is the enemy of true enlightenment) - 'Knowledge? Knowledge is a party trick. It feels good to zone out of your thoughts on your built--in white noise. That's it. Is it profound? No more than nature's profound. It's just there and serves as a very flexible backdrop for our own emotional and mental projections.' I think it's shame, and very embarrassing that I read an awful lot more into my meditation experiences than I should, but I see things now in a different light. BTW I was also at Guru Puja 73. Do you remember the posters that said something like 'Get out of your mind with Knowledge'? I also remember GM saying one night at the camp sight that he did not have all the riches that people thought he had. He said something like 'I do have a Rolls Royce, but it is an old one' It was not long after that his living standards rose to more than an old Roller. Seymour. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 16:25:25 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Another Subject: Dyslexia Message: A Not Her: It is not usually considered methodologically sound to reach a conclusion as a precursor to conducting subsequent analyses. -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 19:38:51 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Another Subject: Dyslexia Message: I'm not sure I need continue posting here after this one.(I can almost hear the collective sigh of relief) I wouldn't be so sure about the sighs of relief. I think people stopped reading your drivel some time ago. You know, if you learned to write (maybe take a class?) you might be able communicate what you are trying to say without the most incredible tendency to be verbose. With fewer words you will certainly spell fewer of them incorrectly and use more of them appropriately. More of what you say will likely get read that way too. After laboring through your post, I gather that you think BM is the messiah, god incarnate, and that he gave you a gift you like. Nothing else matters. [See, I just said in one sentence what you required over 30 paragraphs to say.] Well, good for you! Unfortunately, BM says quite directly these days that he is NOT god, [Scott even got a letter in the early 80s from him saying that] so I guess you've got a problem there. But whatever you want to believe, more power to you! It's a free country as far as religion is concerned. But there IS another side to the story, as you know. That's what this site it about. Maybe Jim can be a bully, but he is certainly less pretentious and condescending than you, and he's also a lot smarter. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 02:54:53 (EST)
From: Another Email: None To: JW Subject: Dyslexia Message: Verbose? yeah, so what? Detail oriented and academic? yeah, so what? drivel? if it seems that way to you, so be it. Condescending and pretentious? What do you think makes this site go round any way, the milk of human kindness? Sorry JW, I may not fit your idea of a towering intellect, great writer or overall nice chap to cyberchat with. My sincere apologies. Besides, writers with talent usually have editors before they release and I see misspelling and grammar problems from others who post here, with no tutorial from you in response. Could you be singling me out? Nah, not a chance. One thing is certain, I play guitar way mo' better then you and probably Jim. Does that make me qualified to be considered as superior because of a single skill I may possess? Hardly. Please elaborate on those sterling qualities you have, which allow dominion over the weakness you perceive others to be steeped in. I bow before your prescient ability to gauge my level of stupidity. As to the idea that Maharaji has made it clear that he is not God, well no shit. He said that to the BBC camera in the driveway one evening in 1971. Something like, 'I am not a God, or Messiah or anything like that, but if it's Peace that you want, then I can give it to you'. To claim title to that would mean the entire universe including you and I would be contained within him. I don't know about you but both of us would give him heartburn, don't you think? For the record, he be only what you need him to be. If you need him to be a money grubbing showman with a penchant for wool pulling, then that is what he will be. If one asks him 'Are you God', he answers no but maintains that he can reveal God's Grace to you, if you choose. Tradition holds that the true form of the 'Avatar' lies within each heart. The body containing that energy will be considered as 'God Incarnate' but only because it is a vessle and only by those who have the eyes to see this person as that manifistation. Depending on which way the wind is blowing, attemting to pin down the 'MASTER' through intellectual means, will bring mixed results at best. As for laboring through my muddle to ascertain the brilliant fact that 'You think BM is the messiah' let me clarify the ghee for you. There is no intellect alive which will make that determination for me, not even my own. Being available to observe and witness the attending drama which surrounds these manifistations(Historically), was the point of my 10,00 character posting. Believing is for those who do not understand OK, being right or wrong about his divinty is not a win or lose situation. While I respect Jim's opinion that (Pardon my Karl Marx) religion is opium for the masses, And I mean it when I apologize for creating disgust in your space bubble, These things ultimatly have consequence only for the ones doing the thinking, not for those who aren't engaged in the exchange. We limit our time to stimuli and concerns fostered by and relative to ourselves, period. That is our nature! All the while, that certain someone, who's charge it is to bring this infinite gift to every human heart, Exists, Alone, in a seperate world, locked into time with 6 billion shipmates, most of whom would just as soon see him pound salt. I suspect that the level and state of being the 'Master' is in, although appearing to be like you, me and Jim, is an altogether different place. (Based on millenia of comparative sightings, which are way too similar, to be dismissed as simple belief) It really depends on who is asking the question then and what response they need to hear when Maharaji says if he is or isn't God. Perhaps the reasons for the 'LORD of the UNIVERSE' ad campaign back in 72 and 73 are no longer valid, or were ill fated and naive. Perhaps the issues and social fabric of certain countrys and mores which exist in the 1990's don't allow a truely free expression of what and who Maharaji is or isn't. Perhaps all this talk is useless because his destiny has been set ever since that ball of light camped out in him, back in 1966. What am I to say to you all? I believe? I don't believe? It doesn't matter. He simply is, end of story, nothing you or I say or do, will ever, ever change that fact, nothing. So we either live to enjoy it, or we live to do other than that. By the way bro' smarter you may be but wiser? that is not for either of us to judge. After all , you can't bullshit God, and if you think you can, 'Den yore weigh mor smartour thenn Eye wil aver bee'. Regards, and thanks to those ladies who actually complimented bits and pieces. My pleasure. Another Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 10:37:42 (EST)
From: Gail Email: None To: Another Subject: Another, you are not stupid Message: Hi. I don't think you are stupid. You either: a) Work for EV or b) are trying to work things out. Please read the other site under Jean-Michel's lovers of India. There is a direct link. See where MJ has come from (lineage). We all seem to want a higher power to take care of us. We all want magic, a lord, the path, the bliss, etc., but after 24 years I realize that I have to make my own. This stuff just doesn't work for me. I am damaged, but I allowed myself to be exposed to it. It is hard to TAKE THE REINS OF YOUR MIND AND LIFE BACK, isn't it. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 13:24:54 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Another Subject: Dyslexia Message: Anything: That post was much improved. Less verbose. Thanks for that. For the record, he be only what you need him to be Another, there is such a thing as objective truth. He is what he is, please don't lay that old premie trip of BM being a mirror and a reflection of our own needs. A multitude of atrocities have been justified by that little line. I doubt anyone NEEDs a money-grubbing showman. But, in my opinion, and the opinion of a lot of others, that's certainly one of the things Maharaji is. He certainly is INTO money and lots of grandiose and expensive material possessions. He he really was into propogation o knowledge and saving the world, he would do with a lot less. Now, I'm sure even you wouldn't deny that. As to his motivations for that, people can make up their own minds, and the most simple reason is usually correct. If one asks him 'Are you God', he answers no but maintains that he can reveal God's Grace to you, if you choose. Well, I have heard him say all kinds of stuff when asked this question. For many years he NEVER said NO. He said coy stuff like: 'I don't say I'm god my followers do and ask them why they say that!' [I saw him say that a couple of times on national television.] I think you've also likely read some quotes in which he comes VERY close to saying he's god. At least until I left the cult in 1983 he NEVER directly said he WASN'T god, while all the time speaking in the third person, allowing himself , without comment, to be called Lord of the Universe, the Superior Power in Person, the Perfect Master, comparing himself to Jesus Christ, Krishna, Buddha, etc., and had us sing Arti to him which has all kinds of allusions to him as a deity. Most premies I knew believed he was god in human form. BM raised not one chubby finger to dissuade our beliefs. Perhaps that has changed, but it was rather late in coming if it has. The body containing that energy will be considered as 'God Incarnate' but only because it is a vessle and only by those who have the eyes to see this person as that manifistation. Excuse me, but I think this is exactly what I was saying. Apparently you also hold the belief that BM is 'god incarnate.' The vessel isn't god, it's a body, but it contains god, and is the personification of god, and he's the only being on earth that is such. This, of course, fit right into my Christian upbringing about who Jesus Christ was -- God, in the vessel of a human body. Now, I dont' believe this, but you are entitled to if you want to. These things ultimatly have consequence only for the ones doing the thinking, not for those who aren't engaged in the exchange. I don't get your 'wind-blowing' metaphor, but the rest of these statements I reject based on my own, won-the-hard-way personal experience. I think what you are saying is that you can't use your own mind and personal judgment to decide anything about Maharaji. It goes back to his commandment to 'NEVER LEAVE ROOM FOR DOUBT IN YOUR MIND' which is now described in current premie-speak as only using your 'heart' to see who Maharaji is. I think it's a recipe for repression of doubts and the creation of the heart/mind dichotomy, which I think is false. I engaged in that repressive process for a good 10 years and found it very unsatisfying and destructive. I suspect that the level and state of being the 'Master' is in, although appearing to be like you, me and Jim, is an altogether different place. (Based on millenia of comparative sightings, which are way too similar, to be dismissed as simple belief) How do you know this? Where you there? Belief and faith are very powerful things. That's why I don't doubt premies often have profound and beautiful experiences. I know I did. What I discovered was that BM was not the source of them, they are available without him and when I stopped believing in him, that became clear. Also, I didn't have to fight my own mind anymore to maintain my belief in him. Following BM is very costly and I found it wasn't worth it. It really depends on who is asking the question then and what response they need to hear when Maharaji says if he is or isn't God. Perhaps the reasons for the 'LORD of the UNIVERSE' ad campaign back in 72 and 73 are no longer valid, or were ill fated and naive. Sorry, I think this is cult double-speak and absolutely wrong. I think the Lord of the Universe label put on BM was because that's who he believed he was. To imply it is based on some 'need' of those who saw the title is sophistry, and blaming the victim. Certainly you know better than that. Perhaps the issues and social fabric of certain countrys and mores which exist in the 1990's don't allow a truely free expression of what and who Maharaji is or isn't. Okay, so now you are saying BM packages himself to suit the times, but that, I guess, he really is the Lord of the Universe, and god incarnate, but it just isn't socially acceptable to say that these days. Do you really believe this? I mean, I believe that he does shuck and jive, and re-package himself to try to hold his trip together, but I don't believe he's god incarnate. So maybe he's god in the 70s and maybe in India in the 90s, but elsewhere he is a meditation teacher, or 'the master.' Of course when he has people line up to kiss his feet, like he did in Australia recently, that kind of undermines the meditation teacher label. The truth is, BM has been all over the map in saying who or what he is. He is anything but consistent. And I think he has just tried whatever he and those around him thought might work at the time. And he lost most of his followers in the process. Some stay on and will accept absolutely any inconsistency he puts out and others kind of hang on and don't know what they think. In both cases, they get to feel special if they do. He has a real dilemma if you ask me. He needs to do enough of the 'devotion' and 'god-incarnate' trip to hold on to the premies from the 70s who still think he's god, or close to it. And, he has to cool it to keep out of the press and to not scare off new people and those who have received knowledge in the 'meditation teacher' sales program of his. He's walking a fine line. That's why he can't let the premies give satsang, because as we all know they would spill the beans about his past, his perfect-master status, the grace of the lord and all the rest. This would send new people away in droves. That's also why I was really surprised to see he gave darshan in Australia recently. I think he tought it was in such a remote area, that no one would notice. But I think actions are louder than words, and will catch up with him. I don't think he can continue, at least in the west, to have his cake and eat it too. You can only re-package yourself so many times. This is especially a problem because of the internet, which allows those of us who know his past to point it out to anyone who is interested. I think the idea of people lining up to kiss is feet is repugnant to most thinking people. However, the 70s premies, who are still the bulk of his followers in the west, want it badly, and will get more involved, and give more money, if he does it. JW Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 13:47:45 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: JW Subject: JW and Another Message: Joe, Again, you articulate so well what even the premies who post here know, in the bottoms of their captured little hearts, to be true. Thanks for laying it all out. There's just one thing I disagree with. And that's your apparent concession that Maharaji never came right out and said he was the Lord. Joe, you've been talking with premies too much (ha ha, I finally get to say that!). ANY reasonable, fair-minded person in the world shown those quotes -- or any of the many, similar examples -- would say without hesitation that of course he said he was God. That's it. End of discussion. And above all, Guru Maharaj Ji is the Supremest Lord in person before us. is him saying, specifically, categorically, without any room for argument, that he is God. Who is Guru? The highest manifestation of God is Guru. So when Guru is here, God is here..? Same. Of course I know you know that but I just wanted to say it. Another, what do you say to that? What do you say to the fact that ANY reasonable, fair-minded person would agree? Do you dispute that? If so, I dare you to find me someone, anyone, who isn't a premie (and who isn't a newage bubblehead) who'll interpret those simple sentences otherwise. If not, and you concede this point, I think you should ask yourself two questions: 1) What are the implications of the fact that M claimed to be God? and 2) What's going on in me that I would go to such great lengths to deny the obvious? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 22:04:16 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: Jim Subject: Two valid questions Message: 1) What are the implications of the fact that M claimed to be God? and 2) What's going on in me that I would go to such great lengths to deny the obvious? Jim, These are the two best and most valid questions I have seen asked of premies on this site so far. To answer them is to find the truth about Maharaji and about oneself. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 03:54:11 (EST)
From: Judex Email: None To: JW Subject: Dyslexia Message: For you info JW he gave darshan in Australia the year before too in Brisbane). Apparently that year it was the first darshan he have given in OZ in many many years. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 03:12:57 (EST)
From: Carol Email: None To: JW Subject: Applause, JW! Message: Very well said. Carol Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 14:10:19 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Another Subject: Perplexia Message: Detail oriented and academic? Is that really how you see yourself? Why? How do those words describe you? One thing is certain, I play guitar way mo' better then you and probably Jim. ?? For the record, he be only what you need him to be. If you need him to be a money grubbing showman with a penchant for wool pulling, then that is what he will be. This is nonsense. Are you saying that there is no world, no reality, everything is anything, no right, no wrong, no truth? If some crazy guy thinks Maharaji's his chauffeur, then he is? Another, this kind of newage stupidity gives all the other newage stupidty a bad name. As to the idea that Maharaji has made it clear that he is not God, well no shit. He said that to the BBC camera in the driveway one evening in 1971. Something like, 'I am not a God, or Messiah or anything like that, but if it's Peace that you want, then I can give it to you' Please see my post to JW and you on this point. But, further, if you claim that you're a great guitar player one moment but then, soem other time, say you're not, does that mean you never said you were? Of course not. It means that a) you said you were a great guitar player and b) you ALSO said you weren't. If you want to make the argument that Maharaji said both that he was God and that he wasn't, go ahead. We can talk about that then. Frankly, I don't think anyone here would give you much grief over that point. He DID say both. The question, then, becomes 'why?' All the while, that certain someone, who's charge it is to bring this infinite gift to every human heart, Exists, Who says? I personally don't believe this at all, anymore than I believe in fairies like Tinkerbell. But, anyway, that's your CONCLUSION in this argument. You can't, then, sue it as a premise as well. It's the point you're hoping to prove. You can't assume it. Tradition holds that the true form of the 'Avatar' lies within each heart. The body containing that energy will be considered as 'God Incarnate' but only because it is a vessle and only by those who have the eyes to see this person as that manifistation. 'Tradition' also holds every last thing people have ever believed but which was wrong. Is that your proof? Tradition? Perhaps all this talk is useless because his destiny has been set ever since that ball of light camped out in him, back in 1966. Are you SURE that's what happened? Are you really sure? Or have you just set your ship on that course a long time ago and now unsure where you'd sail if you had to change it? Go ask Satpal if he thinks that 'ball of light camped out' in Prempal back then? What am I to say to you all? I believe? I don't believe? It doesn't matter. Well then, YOU don't matter. If you've got any kids or people that love you tell them that. Tell them that you are so insignificant that your trying to understand life is a 'masterful' waste of time. Tell them there's no point their trying to learn anything either. Who the fuck cares? He simply is, end of story, nothing you or I say or do, will ever, ever change that fact, nothing. This kind of a tautology, coming as it does in a discussion like this, is analogous to a smiling, nervous stutter. You're not saying anything, Another. I'm listening, but you're not saying anything. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 19:33:11 (EST)
From: Another Email: None To: Jim and JW Subject: Two Seperate Worlds Message: Jim and JW, It's a simple explanation, OK! If one person has an ability or intellectual advantage over another, does that make natural selection (survival of the fittest ie: smartest), reason enough to ride roughshod over another, who's perceptions or values may conflict with yours? That was my only intent for the guitar comment, really. The old pot calling the kettle black thing. Try to take it in stride not stridence. In other words we may be smart but someone else can always come along who is smarter, or better at something then we are. So why Lord it over those below you? It seems counterproductive to personal growth. We can all three, find data advancing both points of view regarding His statements about being or not being God. My point is this, our pontification will not change things. It allows us to agree or to disagree. The die has been cast, from Sandoz footage to Satpal bootage, this thing has become what it is and WE have become who WE are. As for Darshan research, there is ample record of this encounter. Regarding my tight assed tautology, I offer an etymological example for those postings I ascribe to. TAUTO: Greek for 'the same' and LOGOS: Greek for 'discourse'. Carried one step further, LOGOS: Greek for 'reason, thought of as the controlling principle of the universe and as being manifisted by speech' and 'The Word of God'. Based on the historic analogy of tautology, I am using language for the reason it was made manifest and functional. As a means of communicating about 'Gods Word'. Ok, I agree then, sounds too much like Satsang though so be wary about the cadence and subliminal suggestion thing.For Christ's sake don't allow logic 'the science of correct reasoning, from the Greek word Logos', to cloud the issue. What I've said is simply not understood because we are speaking to seperate worlds as you have previously mentioned. You to the intellect and I to the realm of the heart. Thanks Jim and JW, for your honesty. Cheers, Another Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 20:54:05 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Another Subject: Two Seperate Worlds Message: We can all three, find data advancing both points of view regarding His statements about being or not being God. I haven't seen ANY evidence for your point of view and plenty from the other side. Specifically, that BM claimed to be god at times, was vague about whether he was god or not a whole bunch of other times, but his actions lead his followers to think he was, and he also apparently said he wasn't god at other times. And it's more than just picking the statement you want to believe. It goes to the heart of Maharaji's lack of honesty, sincerity and his inability to take responsibility for things he has said and done. I would think someone as smart as yourself would consider such things when deciding whether or not to follow a 'master.' My point is this, our pontification will not change things. It allows us to agree or to disagree. It might not change our respective opinions, but I completely disagree that open discussion about BM, especially by his ex-devotees won't change things. I think such open discussion is lethal to Maharaji. And he is fighting like hell to prevent it if he can. That's why he banned the premie website, won't allow the premies to give satsang, dissuades premies from talking about him on the internet and hides from the press. Open discussion of all his misstatements, contradictions, cult-like behavior and the negative effects it has had many peoples' lives had a BIG effect on Maharaji. And as long as he doesn't address them, the worse it will be, the bigger it will grow and the more it will all come out in the open. 6,000 messages a day read on this forum is pretty good for something that just started a year ago, and it's growing. On as personal note, I appreciate your attempt to speak directly about what you think. Yes, maybe we disagree, but I do appreciate your attempt nonetheless. I was a premie once too, you know. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 00:35:01 (EST)
From: Another Email: None To: JW Subject: Open Discussion Message: Answer A) I only tried to point out that he has claimed and not claimed this distinction over the years. It seems we agree on this. It still remains a, he said, she said quandry and can be stated either way. Answer B) Open discussion is what this site represents,does it not? If Elan Vital opens a website, I am sure the good people who frequent this port in the storm, will be quick to jump on it and draw these distinctions on their site as well. Expose' is an American tradition. Maharaji has been the center of ridicule and negative press on several ocassions. What will happen when critical mass is reached is predictable. CNN did an expose' of Benny Hinn and a follow up. The net result was negative press (Detractors and skimming, secrecy etc) which accomplished the goals of the production. This surely drove off some new recruits and fence sitters, but the airings only reinforced the true followers participation and galvanized their resolve. Benny has used that negative press to help raise funds for the purchase of a 30,000 square foot production studio, so he won't have to sub lease or borrow from TBN in the future. That kind of money is a far cry from the ducets available from the palms and wallets of premiedom. Bringing Maharaji into the focus of the mainstrem will likley help you and the Jim's of this world, feel vindication and some modecum of revenge. In the end though, the curiosity factor will enhance His mystique and contribute to ancillary growth. This isn't a prediction, but based on media and spin control it is the easiest possibility to forcast. The distinction will have been made, the implications will subside, the devotees will remain and Elan Vital's phone will be ringing off the hook. This 'Outing' would allow a free and unfetterd opportunity to reach through the haze and pique the interest of those who share neither perspective but will become curious. Why Maharaji doesn't wish to use the web or surrogates isn't as simple as him trying to disengage a negative media conspiracy. Try to focus on that which I have proffered over the last several postings. If, he is who he is, and If, he needs to reveal peace to others. and If, these souls desire, to receive the Knowledge then perhaps, he wishes for them to come as unfettered as possible. I don't know about you, but listenibg for five months back in 72 would have been a good thing in my particular case.(No dissing of the bongos allowed but, I think you know what I mean) I guarantee that I have alienated more then one interested soul over the years. My 'Verbosity' is likely hereditary. So in my estimation, listening to him is a good thing. Other issues relative to elements a website might draw in, would be an obvious concern. If he wanted to go mainstream he certainly could, satellite hook ups, cable tv blocks, print, the list goes on. No? Yes? Perhaps? No reply needed, I have put off several hours of work to engage you lads and lasses and I must get back to it. If you answer me, you will trip my verbosity switch and I'll fire off another set of reasons why we all agree to continue to disagree. Thank you and peace be with you my friends. Another Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 14:10:26 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Another Subject: Open what? Message: Ein Andere: Bringing Maharaji into the focus of the mainstrem [sic] will likley [sic] help you and the Jim's of this world, feel vindication and some modecum [sic] of revenge. In the end though, the curiosity factor will enhance His mystique and contribute to ancillary growth. This isn't a prediction, but based on media and spin control it is the easiest possibility to forcast [sic]. I must confess that I am at a complete loss to understand your diction. The three sentences [paragraphs?] above are but an example. What does statement 1 have to do with statement 2? How can both be true? If you feel that the focus of the public will result in a negative verdict for your Guru, but he will nonetheless profit due to a general lack of discrimination, then M's appeal is to outliers in the community. It reminds me of a wolf or lion that singles out week individuals in the herd for a meal. And if this is not a 'prediction' what is it? What does the phrase 'easiest possibility to forecast' mean? Does easy mean accurate? If not, why are you doing it? And these are the three clearest statements you make. Forgive me, but what are we to make of this: I only tried to point out that he has claimed and not claimed this distinction over the years. It seems we agree on this. It still remains a, he said, she said quandry [sic] and can be stated either way. If we agree that he has claimed and not claimed then we are agree that he is not consistent. How is this a matter of 'he said, she said?' I mean, let's be honest, this is no quandary, surely? If Elan Vital opens a website, I am sure the good people who frequent this port in the storm, will be quick to jump on it and draw these distinctions on their site as well. Expose' is an American tradition. Without making an issue of the fact that over half the posters to this site are not American the placement of comma and the lack of specification just make the first statement hard to understand. What is 'this port?' If 'this port' means the ex-premie website, will those who frequent 'this port' be quick to jump on the new EV website ('it'??) and draw the same conclusions we do here? Why wouldn't we, if allowed to post on the EV website (a questionable assumption at best)? You agree that he's not consistent, apparently, so how is that some sort of expose'? I guarantee that I have alienated more then one interested soul over the years. My 'Verbosity' is likely hereditary. If by verbosity you mean fluency then I'd have to advise you to look elsewhere for an excuse, so as not to impugn your forbears, since there is distance between your meaning and reality. In general it is extremely difficult to apprehend your meaning so as to get an accurate guage of that distance. Frankly, I think it appropriate to say that you are close to incoherence and leave it at that. Have you ever considered interpretive dance? -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 10:54:46 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: JW Subject: The God-Man Message: A Not Her: Briefly, on this business about whether Maharaji does or does not claim to be God: It would be an extraordinary departure from the Rhadasaomi tradition if he did not make such a claim. According to Juergensmeyer the Rhadasaomi view of reality demands that a God-man either be present, or immanent. The belief system would not hold together without that. This is one of the chief sources of friction with the Sikhs in the Punjab. When M first came to the West he elevated that claim to new heights, and has benefited materially more than any Rhadasaomi or Sant Mat Guru in history. (Whether he is a legitimate successor within that tradition is another matter.) Juergensmeyer recounts the succession of M.B. Lal to the guruship of the Dayalbagh community. Lal, an academic, had no desire to become the Guru, and did almost everything in his power to avoid it. He was eventually told that according to the tradition it was an office he did not have the freedom to decline: 'The rules give us the right to acclaim, but it [sic] doesn't give you the right to disclaim.' Since the time of his ascendancy he has refused to accede to the trappings of the God-man, though his followers continue to honor him in that manner. On occasion they ensure that all the seats in the room he is about to enter are occupied except for the throne of the Guru. When he enters and finds only the throne unoccupied he chooses to sit on the floor. (Can you just imagine!) The point here is that to say M. does not refer to himself as God, or make such a claim, is simply ridiculous, and irrelevant. The belief system demands it, which gives him a certain amount of security and latitude in the sense that he can rely on a selective semantic interpretation to keep himself clear (a relative thing, I suppose). The issue has to do with how he fulfills this office, since unlike Lal and to a degree far greater than all other Gurus in the tradition he uses the position for his own personal enrichment. These actions are not required by the tradition. They are clearly a personal choice, and I might add a choice that seems distinctly outside the progressive traditions of the sect. It is appropriate to interpret those choices as manifestations of a personal ethic that is rather flaccid and unanchored. -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 09:22:49 (EST)
From: Richard Email: None To: Another Subject: Unmitigated nonsense... Message: Dear Another, this is probably your most coherent post to date and its very clarity of speech highlights the gaping holes in your arguments. If we examine the historical data at face value, we can assume at least the possibility, that such a thing as a 'God' in human form, (Might, Could be, Perhaps, Possibly) can exist. What, do you mean legend, myth, rumour, scripture and generalised wishful thinking. Sorry but on that basis you're still competing with alien abductee theory and devil worship. Given the fact (Premise, Surmisation, Guess, Estimation) that these traditions usually allow only one 'God' to teach about one God, during a given period of time, we arrive at the mathmatical solution of ONE in SIX BILLION. That good huh! I'd love to know the mathematical basis for this outrageous calculation. You know how intense it is to be around him 24 hours a day. (Need to be un-fried for that duty and many have tried and burnt like toast, as you well know) On this basis, my friend, you might as well claim that Howard Hughes, Margaret Thatcher and Adolf Hitler have claims on divinity since they too were meglomaniacs who gave their underlings a hard time. And hey, other Masters have also displayed a little humility. Who was the last premie to have his/her feet washed by Maharaji? Sorry, I can't do this any more. Trying to pick the substance out of your post is like chasing a dream. Dream on. Richard Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 17:33:08 (EST)
From: Another Email: None To: Richard and Scott Subject: Open yer eyes, er arse Message: I guess I'm too [sic] to know the readers of this site are doing so in the English language. My apostraphies to both of you for threading on the values of the Queen's English. Although you are excellent as the nit and pick tag team, I have been strafed by Mr. Heller himself and let me tell you Msr's R and S , you are no Jim Heller. When I become rich and famous, I will hire both of you to edit all copy before it goes to net. My statement [sick} as it reads, is simply the way it will pan out in the media over the long haul, based on the historicity of those downfallen icons of late. (Such as Hinn, Moon, Baker, ad nauseum). So, be careful what you wish for as they say, whoever they are. East, West, North, South or on the bloody moon, the wheels are in motion and we are in this together, good, bad and ugly. Thanks for the ripping, It couldn't have come from two smarter guys because there are none, are there? Respects to my Eleventh grade English teacher who said I was smart and gave me an F, Another. p.s. Try, A Not Here, that would be more suitable, or would it? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 18:33:34 (EST)
From: Gail Email: None To: Another Subject: Do your reading. Message: Except for the suicidal cults, they are all still on the go. They have people just like you to keep fertilizing the dogma. Sun Mung Moon (spelling?) just married a whole pile of couples in Korea last month. His cult prospered even while he was in jail in the US for tax evasion. Aren't you lucky you didn't stumble in with that lot. With your luck, you might have had to marry your equal. Remember when MJ said he didn't like having the dogs around for pets anymore. That's because he's got you. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 23:27:31 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Another Subject: Open eyes, engage brain. Message: Another: It is not a matter of finding a good editor, but a matter of discerning coherent ideas from incoherent ones. Wherever you put your commas the ideas wouldn't wash. There are others on this site whose grammatical construction is idiosyncratic, but their ideas are solid as granite and their delivery straight as an arrow. All you're doing with your 'verbosity' is simply obscuring a lack of good sense with a lack of grammar. But if you don't have a decent argument, being obscure is about your only choice. That, my friend, has nothing to do with genetics. I thought we were agreed that Maharaji is inconsistent. Want to start again from that point? -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 07:23:02 (EST)
From: Richard Email: None To: Another Subject: Too many games Another... Message: Dear Another, I admit that I'm an honesty freak and, to that extent, I prefer straight and direct communication which has a kernel of substance. Many years ago I might have enjoyed sparring with you and making fun of such things as a weakness in spelling or grammar but not now and I don't think that I have done that here. Your lack of honesty is evident in your failure to examine and outline just what you do believe in. You prefer to lurk in a kind of intellectual limbo, emerging only to occasionally snipe at chosen posts or individuals. Your sycophantic duals with Jim and trashing of others indicates that you wish to be seen as impenetrable, understood only by the superior mind. Your choice. But your convoluted and abstract ramblings are merely camoflage to cover up what you don't want us to know and, almost certainly, what you do not wish to know either. i.e. What you would like to believe but cannot justify, even to yourself. So spit it out. You can be clear here, this is not a place where honestly expressed ideas get trashed. Several people have tried to deal with you fairly and have demonstrated a willingness to listen. regards Richard Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 22:42:09 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Letter FROM Linda Gross Message: [Well, Linda was supposed to call me last Friday but I never heard from her. She told me that she's devoting Friday's to EV stuff and the rest of the week to her law practice. She also said she'd heard that I'd diss'd her a bit on the net and would be reading some posts that people had sent her before deciding if she'd want to continue discussion with me. I told her that I'd tried to be fair to her, blah blah blah. Here's her letter. By the way, I've been talking with her and faxing her at her law office in Santa Monica, not the address below] Elan Vital Inc. 5321 Derry Avenue Suite G. Agoura Hills CA. 91301 P.O. Box 6130 Malibu, California 90264 Phone: 818-889-1193 Fax: 818-889-6522 July 3, 1998 James I. Heller, Esq. 7 - 547 Herald Street Victoria, British Columbia Re: Your letter of June 17, 1998 Dear Jim: As I told you I would, I forwarded your 17 April 1998 letter regarding Maharaji. I do not know how things were in the early 70s, but Elan Vital is separate from Maharaji. Its purpose is to promote his teachings, but he is not an officer, director or employee of the organization. There are more than 50 similar organizations in other countries aroudn the world. Maharaji travels throughout most of the year responding to invitations to speak from various organizations. Elan Vital - US is but one organization requesting his attendance at its events. I do not have any control over Maharaji, with whom he chooses to speak or whose correspondence he elects to answer. At this point, unless you have a request to which I can respond, I am afraid I can do nothing further for you. Moreover, I have review recent postings on your Web page. Contrary to allegations there, I resigned from my position in 1980 and left. As we have discussed, you and I have very different views about our lives and how we have handled them. Perhaps, as good attorneys, it is time to 'agree to disagree.' Further discussion is unnecessary and potentially counterproductive to my goals. Very truly yours, Linda S. Gross Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 22:59:36 (EST)
From: Gerry Email: None To: Jim Subject: Letter FROM Linda Gross Message: Jim, Just as I suspected. A legal separation between BM and his shell corporations. As if these entities ''than 50 similar organizations in other countries around the world'' just sprang up somehow and now really really want BM to address their autonomous organizations. Sorta like a world-wide PTA or something, huh? ( I mean eh?) This is so lame. Yet it is nothing more (or less) than what I expected. Interesting she 'reviewed recent posting on ''your'' web page, though. As if they all aren't watching the whole thing intently. Far from being discouraging, I view this as a ''call to arms''. It makes me even more determined and inspired to do all I can personally to thwart the spread of BMism. Further discussion is unnecessary and potentially counterproductive to my goals. Looks like yer cut off, bud. Better be glad her name isn't Lorenna Bobbitt Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 23:03:22 (EST)
From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: Jim Subject: Letter FROM Linda Gross Message: I do not know how things were in the early 70s, but Elan Vital is separate from Maharaji. Its purpose is to promote his teachings, but he is not an officer, director or employee of the organization. There are more than 50 similar organizations in other countries aroudn the world. What teachings?? His entire focus is on himself. Elan Vital exists to promote HIM, not his teachings. Linda Gross apparently has no idea of how things are in the late 90's either. Maharaji travels throughout most of the year responding to invitations to speak from various organizations. Elan Vital - US is but one organization requesting his attendance at its events. Let me guess what organizations Maharaji is being asked to speak at - Elan Vital, US; Elan Vital, Canada; Elan Vital, Mexico; etc. The US chapter of Elan Vital may be but one organization requesting his attendance at its events, but it isn't like they ever invite anyone ELSE to attend their events. It isn't like the hold events that Maharaji DOESN'T attend. Linda must feel that down deep in your heart you're still a gullible premie, Jim. Otherwise, why waste the stationary?? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 23:16:44 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Brian Subject: Letter FROM Linda Gross Message: Linda must feel that down deep in your heart you're still a gullible premie, Jim. Otherwise, why waste the stationary?? Well, don't they all think that? Don't they all think that we're not our minds but are REALLY little tiny people hidden in our hearts like Tom Thumb, bleating 'I love Maharaji! I love Maharaji! Help! Let me out! Get me to a video event!'? You know, it's funny, Linda tells me that she bought not only The Guru Papers and The Moral Animal on my advice but also even purchased 'The Lord of the Universe' video. She told me she thought it was hilarious the way all those people carried on back then. Go figure. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 23:21:51 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: Brian Subject: Letter FROM Linda Gross Message: 'Otherwise, why waste the stationary??' Damage Control-Maharaji style :) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 16:02:11 (EST)
From: CD Email: None To: Brian Subject: EVs role Message: >What teachings?? His entire focus is on himself. Elan Vital exists to promote HIM, not his teachings. That is how you and many others see it. Not the way I and many others see it. >Linda must feel that down deep in your heart you're still a gullible premie, Jim. Otherwise, why waste the stationary?? She used the stationary to state clearly that EV is set up as an independed organization to provide financial support for programs around the world, not for Ms personal finances as is often alleged on this web site. I will continue to support EV and hope that EV continues to be a successful organization. I enjoy and benefit from the programs, videos and music. CD Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 19:21:55 (EST)
From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: CD Subject: EVs role Message: That is how you and many others see it. Not the way I and many others see it. Yet, you and the many others who see it that way have no other place to post your opinions about how you see it except here. What is it about ex-premies that just rings of openness, communication, and honesty? What is it about premies that causes them to cower before the selfish demands of Lord Whim and shut down websites? All except for you, of course. You are the Defiant Premie, who posts but refrains from actually discussing anything. EV is set up as an independed organization to provide financial support for programs around the world, not for Ms personal finances as is often alleged on this web site The funding for EV, like the funding for Maharaji's lavish lifestyle, comes solely from premies like you, CD. He's never worked a day in his life - having gone from son of the cult leader to cult leader himself in one step. Cash flows up from communities to EV, and from there it goes to underwrite the cost of getting the Maharaji airborne in his private jet, and to see that he has appropriately lavish accommodations when he lands among the devoted - you and many others. I will continue to support EV and hope that EV continues to be a successful organization. In that EV's success can only be measured in cash-flow, I'm sure your contribution will go as far as anyone's toward that goal. So tell me, oh Defiant One, what did you say when you were contacted and told that MJ doesn't want you to talk about him on the web? I enjoy and benefit from the programs, videos and music. You're a hard man to please, Chris. A box of crayons, a glass of milk, and you're in hog heaven. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 21:42:03 (EST)
From: CD Email: None To: Brian Subject: EVs role Message: >what did you say when you were contacted and told that MJ doesn't want you to talk about him on the web? I haven't been contacted. If would not be at your web site today if it wasn't for Jim's invite a long time ago. Does it bother you if people of different persuasions benefit from your good hard work? >You're a hard man to please, Chris. A box of crayons, a glass of milk, and you're in hog heaven. You would be suprised what a good crayon artist can come up with! Actually I prefer an electric guitar and a place to play it turned up a bit. I can get into the heady stuff with the best of you and I can also appreciate a good feeling and the simple things in life. My girlfriend is working at the hospital today, so I am working trying to get my consulting business going. Thats why I'm not out partying today. Yeah, I had to check out the site. Happy 4th Brian, CD Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 12:43:29 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: CD Subject: CDCP Inquiry 8849993 Message: I can get into the heady stuff with the best of you ... 'Heady stuff'? Is that what you call discussion? Why do you think he have to even say that? Do you think anyone here doubts your ability to talk like an adult, mentally-competent human being? Chris, that would be ridiculous. Why, all they'd have to do is read your reply to KR in the thread above: I went to programs in Miami (convention center) June 1996, Rome July 1996, Miami May 1998 and Wembley (London) June 1998. And Long Beach in December for the last 4 years. Maharaji is still on tour around the world giving talks. In the last couple years there have been 5 music CDs released by premies. Some people like M, some don't. I went to a K session in 1972 in London. you can call this recorded message number for US event info: 818-889-0500 I mean there's nothing robotic or wooden about THAT. Why, you even get right down to it, don't you? 'Some people like M, some don't'. How anyone can say you don't delve into the issues is beyond me. But then people will say anything, won't they? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 12:57:55 (EST)
From: GAIL Email: None To: Jim Subject: CDCP Inquiry 8849993 Message: HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 06:42:15 (EST)
From: Richard Email: None To: CD Subject: Memory Failure Alarm....... Message: Dear CD, She used the stationary to state clearly that EV is set up as an independed organization to provide financial support for programs around the world, not for Ms personal finances as is often alleged on this web site. Talk about selective memory or deaf ear syndrome. This particular scenario, of legally separating Maharaji from DLM et al. has its roots back in England in the the early 70's. DLM's early dealings with the British Charity Commission were fraught with difficulty precisely because of Maharaji's unwillingness to comply with even the letter, let alone the spirit of the law. This row went on for a very long time with high-ranking premies unable to persuade Maharaji to cooperate with the powers that be. It was a big subject at satsang, ask Glen Whittaker, and was even featured in a comedy sketch at the premie Christmas bash at the Palace of Peace. No, this state of affairs has its echoes in history as Maharaji has been dragged kicking and screaming into compliance with the law. To pretend that EV is in any way independent of Maharaji is pure unadulterated bollocks as you well know. But try it out, test it. Tell all the premies, publicly, that all proceeds from fund-raising, magazine sales etc go directly to EV who now support a number of philosophical causes and that they can no longer guarantee a specific contribution to Maharaji's expenses. Watch the sales drop. Alternatively you could find out which other speakers are invited to EV programs and what their expenses are. Sorry CD, your arguments are childishly niaive at best. regards Richard Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 23:56:19 (EST)
From: g's mom Email: None To: Jim Subject: I like the letter ??? Message: Dear Jim, I don't see any premiespeak in it. No satsang. No BS. The first two paragraphs basically explain that Elan Vital is organized in such a way that Rawat cannot be held accountable for anything that goes on. No apologies, just gives you the facts. Then she says she has no special pull with Rawat, he'll do as he pleases, but we knew that. The last paragraph is a little more vague but basically she doesn't like reading her name on the web is what I read into it. Further discussion is counterproductive to her goals. Well I'll bet it is. If she continues to talk to you she might start to listen to you. Also if she continies to talk to you Rawat may get pissed. One thing I think may be disengenuous (sp?) is the statement of ignorance of the 70's. Seems hard to believe that someone as bright as this woman seems to be wouldn't have taken just a little peek at the history books. G's mom Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 00:14:51 (EST)
From: Selena Email: None To: everyone Subject: I DON'T like the letter Message: It's so typical. Been there = as early as Jan. 98 Yes, it would be counter-productive for her to continue communications with any of us. Didn't she make the point? OUR message?? I feel so sad reading this thread. Judex I fear I am going back where you have been,, after reading this. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 04:33:19 (EST)
From: Judex Email: None To: Selena Subject: I DON'T like the letter Message: I feel so sad reading this thread. Judex I fear I am going back where you have been,, after reading this. What do you mean, Selena? You feeling okay girl? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 00:19:31 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: g's mom Subject: I like the letter ??? Message: G-mom, Yes, I kind of agree with you. Linda's a truly nice person and the letter reflects a certain straightforwardness I've come to expect and admire in her. On the other hand, it also smarts of EV bullshit, let's face it. AS IF Maharaji travels around the world in response to invitations from these various independent organizations. And AS IF 'Elan Vital is separate from Maharaji'. Let's put it this way: if Maharaji woke up from a bad dream tonight and decided that EV should change its name to 'Carlos and Pepe's' it'd be done in a week. If he decided there should be no more EV it might take a month. If he decides that EV -- all 50 of them -- should direct their energies a little more to the left... well, you get the idea. In an cult you don't have to be a director. Master will do. (Notice she didn't add 'beneficiary' to her list). Also, notice how Linda avoids mentioning anything about whatever response she got when she forwarded my letter? We're talking closed-shop, extremely closed-shop. Not to mention the prospect that as president of EV-US she might have a little persuasive sway with Maharaji. But, of course, that idea is anethmatic to the cult. She can safely write that she has 'no control' over Maharaji. How nice, huh? Sounds like a boiler-room sales operation which can 'always' be reached at a certain post office box. Yeah, right. No, I like Linda but I know a cover job when I see one. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 00:35:44 (EST)
From: G's mom Email: None To: Jim Subject: all true but... Message: Dear Jim, But truly, would you expect anything different? She knows that you and all of us know he could tell them to change their name and they would. I am certain from that letter she knew she wasn't fooling you or anyone. You are a lawyer, isn't this the sort of CYA thing you would expect? And she is not going to take the major risk of admitting she discussed you with Rawat and risk her response being published here. No way. Jim I am one of your biggest fans but no way she'll do that. What I liked is that she was direct. No satsang added. Just talked to you like another attorney. No attempt to apologize for her position. Am I way off base? Would not be the first time. G's mom Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 01:22:21 (EST)
From: G's mom Email: None To: Jim Subject: cover job...I am SLOW... Message: When I was pregnant I could blame it on placenta brain, now its milk brain. Cover job means CYA right? I am arguing to the converted. I need to slow down when I read. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 00:46:08 (EST)
From: Selena Email: None To: Jim Subject: I like the letter ??? Message: What you respect and admire is a wit and a brain and it's used in a profession you can relate to. BFD! I am not impressed. I am 'Grossed' out. pun intended and well deserved. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 00:59:49 (EST)
From: G's mom Email: None To: Selena Subject: I am not being clear... Message: I think what I found refreshing was that unlike the premie posts here she just stated her position and it was over. I get crosseyed reading the premie posts here as they are so illogical and full of unrequested guru bliss blah blah... I wish she would write Jim and say ' yes, Rawat will see you on August 14 at 4pm and answer your questions'. I would love to be wrong but that is never going to happen. I do not ever expect to have the satisfaction of answers from Rawat unless Jim is able to get him into a court of law. I don't expect OJ to confess either. Bad people do bad things in this world and go to enormous lengths to get way with them. I think sometimes there is justice but I do not expect Rawat to cooperate or anyone who still wants to please him. I guess I should have said that letter is different rather than I like it. It is different from the premie posts in that she is much clearer in her communication, in my opinion, than something from the premie crew who post here. She does sound fairly bright, maybe one day she'll leave. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 01:09:05 (EST)
From: Selena Email: None To: G's mom Subject: I am not being clear... Message: Dear G's - I liked your post. I was being reactionary to Jim and his reveremce for Ms. gross, not to you. I thought your post was very clear. ( and far more literate than mine at my emoting stage ) Yes it would be nice if Ms. Gross would *not* be a lawyer for M for a candid internet nano second. and it would be nice if M were God ( wouldn't it?) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 01:18:38 (EST)
From: g's mom Email: None To: Selena Subject: thanks I misunderstood you Message: I am truly oversensitive, always have been. Feel better now :) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 01:24:37 (EST)
From: Selena Email: None To: g's mom Subject: thanks I misunderstood you Message: Async communications have their limits at times like this. But I want to thank you. Thanks. And, we may both be in the wrong thread *(for sensitives) But so fu#$ING what??. -- -- --- - .... having fun with anger. have to right now. Selena. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 13:29:54 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Selena Subject: Thanks, Selna Message: I was being reactionary to Jim and his reveremce for Ms. gross Yes, Selena, you're not the first person who's warned me about being too nice to premies here. But thanks anyway. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 13:57:17 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Jim Subject: I mean 'Selena' Message: yeah, what DID you mean by your Judex reference, by the way? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 17:44:15 (EST)
From: Selena Email: None To: Jim Subject: I mean 'Selena' Message: Hi Jim and Judex Jim I'm glad you aren't mad at me. I do like your communications very much. What I meant was, I am in a funk. I am angry angry angry and all the sanctimonious premie posts in the world re: accepting responsibility aren't going to keep me from expressing it. And of course it's not all because of M - he doesn't deserve that much credit. I am in the middle of a rather large inheritance legal thing - I am sure you can relate! It's brought up stuff I didn't even know I had. So, going where Judex has been meant, she was telling us about an intense bout with depressiona and I fear it is now my turn. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 18:38:58 (EST)
From: Judex Email: None To: Selena Subject: to Selena Message: Dear Selena, what can I say - I hope you feel 'better' soon - whatever better is to you - I hope you can feel & express safely/manageably whatever feelings are making you depressed. You probably don't want to hear about me but what else can I talk about - until I know you better & what your situation is. Is this funny or peculiar - I was at the chemist last week in my tea break from work having a quick but thorough discussion with the chemist about neuro transmitters & nicotine withdrawals & depression. I think I'll dedicate the rest of my life to understanding brain chemistry. For me it's like trying to get a fix on some computer problem only it's the brain/emotions instead. All I know is I try not to kill myself when I am feeling that way and I tell myself it won't last forever & I try to talk to myself & tell myself I am worthy of love & I am an innocent angel (I picture my child-self about 4 y.o. looking totally crazy in photos and think she deserves love anyway). Bored you to sleep yet? Anyway thanks for sharing about how you are feeling. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 18:43:33 (EST)
From: Selena Email: None To: Judex Subject: to Selena Message: No way!, you haven't bored me to sleep. Although my chronic insomnia and anxiety have caused me to try to quit caffiene. 2 days and I am falling asleep on my feet at times. It's weird. So, I have a hint of what nicotine withdrawals are, tho I know they are worse. Thanks for writing that. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 00:21:32 (EST)
From: KK Email: None To: Jim Subject: Letter FROM Linda Gross Message: Jim I have some fundamental problems with Linda Gross' entirely legalistic description of the EV structure and MJ's arms length role, etc. I was deeply involved in the formation of EV in Australia and the Pacific and I was personally aware of the guiding principles behind the formation of EV which were essentially to create an arms length vehicle for MJ's work which would support him, his family, his tours, aircraft and anything else he might want and need but in such a way as to allow him maximum legal flexibility and protection. I travelled to Malibu and Miami on many occasions to have private meetings with Michael Dettmers and Peter Potter to fine tune the EV structure. It was well known amongst the higher echelon of premies what EV was all about. I've been out of the scene for years now. Reading Linda Gross' letter (think I remember her via Newt Gay) verifies to me that we achieved our goal of those times which was to create a sustainable separate legal entity to MJ which to all intents and purposes would be separate but in reality, working for the enduring theme of MJ supportive goals. This is not an aim I would wish to pursue in any way, shape or form now as I am an ex-premie of some considerable time. Nobody buys the EV propaganda unless they have an ardent desire to keep the MJ dream alive at the expense of common sense and clear judgement . Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 12:52:03 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: KK Subject: Letter FROM Linda Gross Message: Hi KK, Nice to hear from you. No, of course Linda's description about EV's relationship with Maharaji is most significant for what it omits. We all know that EV only exists at the whim of M. The distinction she earnestly describes is lost on me. Maybe I should write her back and ask her how much of EV's budget is spent on M's expenses. Maybe she'll tell me that its none of my business. Maybe some really loving premie, like Chris, should ask her. Maybe she'll tell HIM. Ha ha ha. KK, could you elaborate further on these meetings with Dettmers and Potter? Thanks. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 14:07:22 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Jim Subject: Letter FROM Linda Gross Message: Jim, what is Linda talking about regarding resigning her position in 1980? If she is referring to my remembrances of her, note that she didn't deny any of the rest of it. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 14:48:58 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: JW Subject: Letter FROM Linda Gross Message: Jim, what is Linda talking about regarding resigning her position in 1980? If she is referring to my remembrances of her, note that she didn't deny any of the rest of it. Joe, Yeah, I don't know WHAT she's saying there. Should I write her back asking about that and also asking how much money EV spends on Maharaji's expenses annually? Or, and this would be a fun question to, how do the 'directors' of EV decide on things? Does Maharaji ever suggest proposals? Do they then -- look, I'm really trying to keep a straight face here and YOU'RE not helping! -- do they... ha ha ah ... sorry. Okay, I can do this. Really. Okay, yes, I should also ask her if, by chance, Maharaji DOES make a suggestion to the directors of EV... sorry, this is too funny! I was up really late last night. I think I'm stil a little hungover or something. Okay, I can control myself... 'Dear Linda, Could you please advise me if Maharaji sometimes makes suggestions to the EV Board of Directors. If he does, do they then VOTE on it?' H HA HA HA!! 'Vote on it'! Get it? HA HA HA... 'Maharaji? Is Maharaji there?' Just a sec. Who is this? Linda?' 'Yes, it's me. Who's this? Raja Ji?' Yeah. I'll get Maharaji. He's around here somewhere. Probably surfing the net or something, you know. Hey, by the way, what happened with that proposal Maharaji had for the summer tour? Has the board met yet? 'Yeah, well that's what I want to talk with him about. Can you get him?' 'Yeah, but you don't sound too happy. You're not telling me that..' 'Raja Ji! Will you PLEASE just get Maharaji for me? PLEASE?!' 'Okay. Sorry. I understand. It's just that, I don't understand it. This is the third proposal he's submitted this month. What's with those guys?' 'RAJA JI!!' 'Okay, okay. I'm going! Meditate, will ya'?' [Puts phone down. Sound of some Hindi exchange off in the distance. Then, a distnat but clearly audible, angry 'What? Those fucking assholes!' Then, a new voice on the phone] 'Linda!' 'Yes, Maharaji, I just..' ' What happened ?' '... called to tell you...' 'What happened? Did they go for it? What's going on?' 'Maharaji, I odn't know what to tell you. The board did meet but no, the DIDN'T go for it. I'm sorry. I don't know what to tell you. I did my best to put forth your idea and everything..' 'Linda, you don't know how this hurts me. I have my work to do, like Shri Maharaji had his, like my brother, Guru Maharaj Ji, has his. I can't do it if my own organization..' 'Ah ah, Maharaji! You know what I've said about that!' 'Okay, OUR organization 'No, Maharaji! Not even 'our'. Please, trust me on this. Please, just call it EV, will you? You're giving me conniptions!' 'Okay, whatever. See, that's the whole point. Do you think Shri Maharaji had to put up with this? Or my brother? Do you think he has to beg and whine to seom stupid board or something who don't even do what ...' 'But that's the whole point, Maharaji. You're just an invited guest of EV at some of its events. Nude nudge, wink wink. Come on, Maharaji, remember why we did it this way. Besides, don't you want to know WHY they didn't go for it?' 'No, I don't want to know anything. I'm just really fed up. Talk to Raja Ji' 'Hello? Linda?' 'Raja Ji, how is he? I'm really worried....' 'Well, Linda, I think he has a right to be upset, don't you? I mean, he's right. What if our father in heaven ... I mean he can see everything already, but what if.. well, what if Satpal could see what's going on here? This is humiliating, you know?' 'Raja Ji, I don't know what to say. This is just the way Maharaji set things up.' 'Well if he made it, he can change it. Don't forget...'Creator, destroyer, preserver'' 'You mean 'Creator, preserver, destoryer.' 'Yeah, well..' 'No, Raja Ji. I'm afraid it's not that simple. See, Maharaji is really just an invited speaker at some Ev events. That's what I keep trying to remind him...' 'Linda, I'm sorry, can we talk about this later? My show's just come on. I'll give you a call, okay? Meanwhile, talk to those guys again, will ya'' 'Raja Ji, I will but I think you and Maharaji just have to understand that this isn't the old DLM anymore. It's not even the old EV. Anyway, I'll let you go..' 'Okay, see ya.' 'Yeah, 'bye'. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 21:05:20 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Jim Subject: Letter FROM Linda Gross Message: Very good, Jim. Must say, it's a little weird that in her letter Linda says EV invites BM to appear at events, but then she previously told you that she didn't know why those same events were cancelled. She seems a little 'out of the loop' for the president of the organization. Maybe her board wouldn't tell her. Must remind you that EV is nothing more than DLM with a name change made in 1986, according to the California Secretary of State. Moreover, the Registrar of Charitable Trusts, told me that EV is an 'inactive' non-profit and therefore no longer had to file reports. Wonder why that is, if it is so active in promoting BM's teachings. Seems Linda would remember all the most outrageous cult-like behavior and financial shennanigans of the late 70s if she was a lawyer is the OFFICE OF GURU MAHARAJI until 1980. I guess she left Miami Beach about the same time I did. Also, did you ask her if she has talked to Linda Smith lately? She was also a lawyer at OGM. I haven't talked to Linda in a few years. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 19:41:38 (EST)
From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: Jim Subject: Letter FROM Linda Gross Message: BRAVO!! One of your best, Jim. You must have a microphone at the Divine Residence. Laughed my ass off! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 02:15:54 (EST)
From: 900 Foot Jesus Email: None To: Jim Subject: Calling Jim Home Message: Yikes! For the sake of Holy Moses you might get called home by our Heavenly Father. Be careful, Jim. I have great plans for you. I'll come to you in your dreams. Be sure to listen and have your checkbook by your bedside. Big J. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 08:01:32 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: 900 Foot Jesus Subject: Calling Jim Home Message: Whoever wrote this, know that you are treading on awfully thin ice in the threat department. In fact you may have already fallen through. Care to clarify your statement here? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 11:39:51 (EST)
From: .9 Inch J Email: None To: Katie Subject: Calling Jim Home Message: a bad joke, that's all Jim's post was simply WILD! Loved it. The 900 foot reference and all was to Oral Roberts. Apologies... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 11:59:34 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: .9 Inch J Subject: Thank you, JESUS!! Message: Yes, last night when I first read your post I wondered for a sec. (Thanks for getting a little, how shall we say? 'proactive' for me, Katie. Much appreciated.) But I kind of knew you were kidding. Thanks for the comment and clarification. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 20:25:55 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: .9 inch Jesus Subject: Thank you, JESUS!! Message: Dear J - I like the idea of the .9 inch Jesus, and I had forgotten about Oral Roberts (how COULD I!). I appreciate the clarification. Thanks for not calling Jim home just yet. Regards, Katie P.S. There is a great Willie Porter song called 'Jesus on the Grille' about those glow in the dark Jesuses that truck drivers put on the front of their Peterbilts. Highly recommended to you! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jul 08, 1998 at 01:28:58 (EST)
From: Shrinking J Email: None To: Katie Subject: Thank you, JESUS!! Message: Thank the Heavenly Father I didn't go with 9mm Jesus which is even smaller. Oral Roberts: The hucksters are in every realm making their claims to being God or knowing God on a first name basis or God talking to them directly. Jim's post seemed so extremely sacrilegious, if that applies, and very funny and probably reality based to some degree. I would have been afraid to write that one. Even if MJ has no powers there is Raja's WPC and all those crazies. We all know about the Detroit Pie incident. Hopefully, those days are way gone and none of us has to worry about that kind of stuff. Yeah, I might have recently heard that song, 'Jesus on the Grille'. I love those kinda songs. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 07:54:55 (EST)
From: KK Email: None To: Jim Subject: Letter FROM Linda Gross Message: G'day Jim Basically the meetings involved discussions about money, tours, MJ's current way of thinking. Mainly MONEY. There was never enough MONEY coming in. Nothing too fixed apart from MONEY. Not particularly relaxing because of the constant financial pressure. Much of the discussion was implied because we were all on the same wave length and I guess one of the main reasons anyone ended up in that position was because they were adept at reading between the lines. You didn't have to be Einstein to work out that everything revolved around supporting MJ's lifestyle at whatever cost. Example: I recall having quite a lot of say in the discussions. In 1986 I insisted, 'NO, He can't just pull the pin on doing a program in Taiwan and expect them to still come up with squillions of dollars to buy a jet'. No Taiwan so no money. Of course, a large part of the frustration around money involved observing the outrageous waste. Shameless waste of money on whims. Examples: I was called to LA and told MJ wanted to see me. 'Just wait in the hotel room and he'll call.' I waited for ten days in relative luxury at the organisation's expense. No problem. $000s later. Trivial? It went on all the time. Miami, very often. Is there anybody reading this who remembers when the Kyoto program was cancelled in 1984/5. Months of preparation. I felt terrible. MJ rang me in the middle of the night in Tokyo - we were leaving on the bullet train the next day for Kyoto - to tell me to get him the first available flight to Hong Kong/Delhi because Sampurnanand had had a heart attack. I couldn't believe he would do this. Particularly when it emerged later that it was a false alarm largely. Just took off and everybody was left $000s out of pocket. A divine lila, you old premies. Are you reading this, Kato San? Wonderful people in Japan who did a lot to make everything comfortable for us. Hope you have seen the real light by now. It was like this all the time. In 1986 MJ had to cancel the Pacific tour. Padarthanand was in the US giving everybody 'Pacific-sang' - anybody have the great fortune of listening to his wondrous diatribe about how perfect everything was in the Pacific? a place he'd established as a fiefdom until MJ realised he was an obstacle to financial progress and stuck him in satellite towns in the US on tour for about 9 months. I was one of the few people, if not the only person I know, who left the organisation with some financial compensation - a sum of money to get on with life. Why? Because I asked. No problem at all. It didn't buy MJ 12 years of my silence. It bought me food, rent, clothes etc after years of minimalism in the name of devotion. I could actually go to a movie, buy a paperback novel, have a meal in a restaurant. I've actually forgotten how guilty I initially felt about doing this. I had no doubt about my past contribution so I asked for some help. To mentally survive, I had to stay away from anyone remotely connected to the organisation. Like a heroin addict staying away from every possible point of vulnerability. Initiators and premies used to ring and write to me. Charnanand wrote to me for ages, Padarthanand sent me Xmas cards, people tried to keep the contact up. No thanks. I slammed the door. I believe it took a relatively short time to obtain almost total objectivity. Now I look upon it that it was a confronting thing for the initiators because they used to always try and get my ear to get close to HIM, then they wanted my ear to find out if it was really true that MJ was: eating meat, heaven forbid smoking, gosh etc etc etc etc etc Last meeting I had with MJ and the hanchos was in 1986 in LA, Miami and Sydney. Amicable, thank you for sharing, let's be gracious about all this. I was a liability, you see. There's a word in Hindi for a person who's in darkness - anybody remember? - anyway that was me, so there was feigned politeness. No need to get negative towards those people because they helped me to realise I could leave. They merely worked for MJ like a job. I felt that they had mixed personal views which they rarely shared. Not the initiators. Let me say that they were out there, trying to be perfect in all their imperfection and I know MJ just didn't know what to do with 75% of them because they were not the greatest at making money. Their way of getting money was to prevail upon the devotional side, he was trying to get away from the clinging devotees and they were encouraging everybody into that Hinduisation because that was their comfort zone. He wanted most of them gone. I know this for a fact including the ones who to this day are probably right in his inner circle. He does have some guilt about letting these people go. He spoke about this very specifically. Not just the Indian ones actually. No names, they're probably still holding on to the dream. They think he's so merciful! Jim, how about a challenge? To all those active 'premies' who read the Forum and pretend they don't, whose curiosity gets the better of them. Why don't you show some pluck and join in on the discussion? Do you really believe this cult can be justified? We're not 21 anymore. Most of us are facing middle age. Are you one of those whose never had a chat to HIM even but keeps on giving him your hard earned money, time, forsaking job security to run around after this immature twerp whose claim to fame is sibling rivalry. Believe me, if you did have a chat and you were able to see that what you'd be getting off on was how you think you SHOULD and MUST be feeling rather than just how absolutely one dimensional, linear and trite the chitchat really was, you'd be outa there. I got out in time to make a life - about age 28 - I saw people devastated, suppressing ttheir humanity for a place in his little palace of greed. Come on, take the plunge......................... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 11:06:34 (EST)
From: Richard Email: None To: KK Subject: Thanks KK... Message: Hi KK, Thanks a lot for your post. I can't emphasise enough just how important it is for those who were involved in full-time service or who feel responsible in whatever way for perpetuating the myth, to hear from others like yourself. It's good to hear that you're doing OK and you are so right to challenge the lurkers to engage in the debate. regards Richard Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 09:35:16 (EST)
From: KK Email: None To: Richard Subject: Thanks KK... Message: No problem, Richard. I'm doing fine, 12 years later after 12 years in there. I received Knowledge in 1973ish at aged 15. What an adolescence! Hope you're going OK, too. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 11:17:01 (EST)
From: bb Email: None To: KK Subject: for KK Message: Wow, thanks for that post. Do you know that they are playing the old and new devotional songs to him at events? And even -lord of the universe- song is getting instrumental air play. To get knowledge they insist that you have no other religion but rawat, and kissing his feet is now back on, and the marketing arm of ev is heavily slanted to protraying him as god incarnate and he is heavily implying his own divinity in his talks. He is going around to knowledge reviews telling that the guru is the one pushing your breath back and forth like a swing. Have some mercy on those that weren't up close like you and have become life long prisoners of his continued portrayal of himself as god incarnate. ev makes the claim to be in 90 countries and what defence do those people have against the marketing of the old video footage and the insidious claims that rawat makes? PLEASE tell your story fully about how he is NOT any more anything than anyone else. And also the stories you have heard about his bad behaviours and his excesses. You mentioned how you landed on your feet rapidly. MANY people are still trapped and more are destined to become ensnared by his 'I am god' trip. Maybe the inner circle became clear by seeing up close, but most victims were and are still needing to hear the stories you can tell. I was stuck till 97 and I know many others that can be helped by you just being honest and by you kindly extending yourself by takeing the time to tell us the truth about him. If he wasn't going full bore at trying to push the old I am god incarnate trip into 90 countries, then maybe we would have no need to try to get the truth told. But truly he is going full steam ahead and consequences be damned. Truth be damned, and if you read the -another- post up top, you will see that the way another views haveing to explain past actions is exactly the way rawat views it. He really is doing a bad deed still with his 90 country push. We have evidence besides yours, but please tell your side fully. bill burke Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 09:58:44 (EST)
From: KK Email: None To: bb Subject: for KK Message: Hi Bill The momentum keeps going because of people's need. He is not actually powerful in himself. It is people's perception of his power that makes him able to do it. I believe he is yesterday's man because he doesn't hold any power over me. I appreciate the need for tolerance, so I don't mean to patronise anyone who's still into the cult. Just a few days ago I ran into a premie I hadn't seen for 13 years whom I knew as an aspirant. She is a very talented and accomplished film actress who was on her way to an audition with a world famous director. I think I could feel her anxiety about how I would be - would I be co-operative and gracious or resistant and defensive? When I asked her how she was and how lovely it was to see her etc, how was her mother (she was a devout Catholic), wished her well in her career, it seemed surprising for her. She said 'Oh, I'm OK. Mum's dead but it's all OK' She didn't ask me ONE QUESTION. This was unlike her because she hadn't completely made the lifestyle switch when I knew her. [There was still HOPE]. She'd chat to me about literature, music, the arts etc. People like her probably became involved because I had a few more words in my vocabulary than service, satsang and meditation! But her fear was palpable. After all, I could shatter her 'world' by driving the point home. At the end I quickly told her what I do for a job and how I am actually having a good time doing it. An angle on my life as a member of the world, not the cult. She rushed away, probably confused. Anyway, hey what can you do. Chat away on the net, I guess. Try to make a life which has a wide embrace so that something worthwhile can come of what you do. I mean for years and years, I thought the purpose of my life was to do PRACHAR, remember that word - PROPOGATION. I gave it a good go. Nice to hear from you. I'll speak to you another time, I'm sure. Regards, KK PS I am amazed about the swing back to the old guru-devotee syndrome. I thought that went out with the Ark. It won't work, believe me. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 14:03:21 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: KK Subject: WOW Message: KK, Thanks so much for that. Man, I thought this was true, but it still floors me to hear from the inside what a charade Maharaji's cult really is. Thanks again. JW Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 10:00:52 (EST)
From: KK Email: None To: JW Subject: WOW Message: Absolutely right, JW. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 11:11:34 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: JW Subject: Joe, that's pathetic Message: Absolutely right, JW. I know, you were talking in your sleep. Really, Joe, this kind of self-confirmation is beneath you. Way to tell him, Jim Hey, don't mention it No, really, Jim, I think that was an excellent point, Alright!! Jim :) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 12:33:07 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Jim Subject: Joe, that's pathetic Message: Yes, I've found it is much easier just to agree with myself. All that discussion and consensus building is such a nuisance. I don't know who posted that agreement. Katie, someone is using my tag! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 12:38:38 (EST)
From: Rick Email: None To: JW Subject: Joe, that's pathetic Message: It looked like KK made a few little boo-boos and put the recipient in the 'From' box. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jul 08, 1998 at 05:09:06 (EST)
From: KK Email: None To: Rick Subject: Joe, that's pathetic Message: My apolgies. I was very tired and I'm new to the net. Thanks for your patience. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 14:35:25 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: KK Subject: EVERYONE PLEASE READ! Message: Everyone should read your above post, KK. I concur with Bill that you've got quite a story to tell to those of us who never got so up close and personal with Rawat. That time that you waited to see him, did you finally? How about other times? What DO you know in the way of simple, dirty gossip? My thought has always been that we have every right in the world to indulge in the real-life coprology (study of feces?) of the man who got us to drink his bathwater. We have every right to laugh at his body. We even have every right to laugh at his stupid wife who has supported and benefitted from his delusion all this time. So what DO you know about all those gossipy little things people have always asked you about? What WAS Maharaji like in your contacts with him? You know... Thanks again for what you've already given here. Your challenge is a good idea. I also think your example, as did JM's, serves as something of a challenge as well to other people who were close to Maharaji. They could REALLY help put this picture together. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 15:04:01 (EST)
From: Selena Email: None To: all Subject: EVERYONE PLEASE READ! Message: Just read it, thanks to x alerting me. What can I say? It certainly does take away from the god illusion to see him up close and personal. I never have, yet I always kind of sensed that he was arrogant and selfish and that I really wouldn't want to be close. Just being close to those who were close was often bad. They were so weird, spacey and self absorbed. This post would indeed help some but unfortunaly there are many who cannot and will not give up their belief systems. Another reason for me to feel gratitude that I listened to my doubts and emotions and thoughts. Thanks KK Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 10:41:47 (EST)
From: Selena Email: None To: Selena Subject: EVERYONE PLEASE READ! Message: G'day Selena I don't remember being weird, spacey and self absorbed. I do remember never meditating, hardly ever going to satsang and doing a hell of a lot of 'service'. I'm glad we both listened inside, aren't you? I had to or I was going to lose my mind. After I made my decision to leave and find somehwere else to live and something else to do, I vomited. I felt so sick and shaky. One of the premies at the residence told me to go to a hospital. I went to the airport and caught a plane to the rest of my life. I've had food posioning since but never like that episode. Phew! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 15:07:47 (EST)
From: Gail Email: freedom@gtn.net To: Jim Subject: Thank you KK Message: Too bad you had to sit by the phone for 10 days. The people you worked with must have seen this situation just as you did. Why haven't they gotten out? What keeps you in at the top? Money? What? Why hasn't this bubble burst already? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 10:44:18 (EST)
From: KK Email: None To: Gail Subject: Thank you KK Message: FEAR. It has burst. You just don't hear about it. I haven't discussed this period of my life with anyone in the 12 years since I've left, not even my spouse in any significant detail. Where would you start? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 11:24:53 (EST)
From: Richard Email: None To: KK Subject: Spouses Message: KK, I haven't discussed this period of my life with anyone in the 12 years since I've left, not even my spouse in any significant detail. Where would you start? This sounds awfully familiar. I took my wife to a program once before we married, back in '84, having already severed the material ties. She didn't bite, I left it at that. Beyond telling her the basics (I took this meditation course and lived in an ashram) we never really discussed it. Recently, because of my need for her to understand more about my motivations and aspirations, I have tried to explain the period in greater depth. Wow! How do you explain (or justify) the life of a full-time service premie? I don't think she really wants to hear too much more. Would you? Which is one reason that this forum is vital. Richard Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 12:14:32 (EST)
From: Rick Email: None To: Richard Subject: Spouses Message: I've tried to tell the woman I live with about my past involvement with BM. She gets a vacant look in her eyes and then tries to change the subject. She thinks it's the most boring shit she's ever heard. I think most people are flabbergasted that anyone could have fallen for this. After similar responses I've received from other people, I stopped mentioning it. It is, after all, embarrassing. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 12:37:16 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Richard Subject: Spouses Message: Richard, I've only recently began telling my partner about my cult involvement in the past year. Little by little. He was at first a little freaked by it, because to him it seemed to totally impossible that I could have been involved in something like that. I have decided to show him the Lord of the Universe video, with some introductory preparation. But most of the details, I haven't we haven't really discussed. I think this is a common scenario for a lot of ex-premies. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jul 08, 1998 at 05:28:40 (EST)
From: KK Email: None To: Richard Subject: Spouses Message: I found Bob Mishler's interview a helpful way of introducing some basic concepts. Beyond that I've left it alone. I guess once you process your own needs including the need to talk about it to your intimate, it is less relevant to actually do so. The lifestyle is justified in that it was what you did in good faith at that point in time in your life. Be kind to yourself. I'm not prepared to write off 12 years as an unjustified phase of my life. I didn't lose out. I express this period as a search and an adventure and a strictly limited edition! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 11:31:10 (EST)
From: Richard Email: None To: KK Subject: By the way.. Message: I had a really good mate from back then who did a lot of stuff for Maharaji, Paul Griffin. Did you know him, what happened to him? Anyone know. Richard Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 10:35:27 (EST)
From: KK Email: None To: Jim Subject: EVERYONE PLEASE READ! Message: It's like this, Jim. He's totally a regular guy. Nothing more or less. I remember once asking him on the way to his limousine at the Peninsular Hotel, Hong Kong 'is there anything you'd like, MJ?' He said in a resigned, quite depressed sort of way 'Yeah, about a million dollars' before getting in the car and taking off. Now that's not the first thing that'd come into my mind if you asked me that question but for him, it was very real as far as I could work out. Like I said yesterday, the mantra was MONEY. I was so relieved to get away from an environment obsessed with money. I used to feel the ulcers coming on because one thing was certain, there would never be enough. Maralyn wants this ( a new car), the kids want that (a new horse or gizmo), MJ wants something else (a bigger better smarter plane). Meanwhile there were other money pressures mainly from Mahatmas/initiators. Can they buy some clothes most commonly. I'd hear these drawn out explanations about why Jagdeo needed a new pair of pants. Or Susan Johnson needed a beige evening blouse. Not to mention tour costs. Once I did the sums for MJ to go commercially in total luxury. He wouldn't hear of it as a routine possibility. Although he has done it when essential. I explained to him that the Queen of England could afford it but not him. One of the heaviest issues driving people crazy at the top was how on earth he was going to survive financially. Thank God, I left that headache to someone else. At the same time, I was trying to work out ways of preventing fraud. It was widespread. People saboutaged MJ continually. He didn't seem to care. Once somebody was stealing from the divine residence and he insisted that nothing be done about it and it was a considerable amount of goods. My theory now is that he lacks any sense of value anyway. Why else would you cut a car in half so proudly that one of your devotees had given you. Yes, well obvioulsy because you're an ignorant person but also because you must lack a basic, non-emotional, simple factual grasp of the value of the transaction in material terms. Not sure I answered your questions. I did see him that time at Malibu in his house, elevated office for a few hours. There were many other occasions. Countless times over the years. Phone conversations also. In personal contact, he is in control, he is never an observer, he is always the centre of attention, you speak when he allows it, he loves to entertain and get fairly intoxicated. He has special premie friends whom he entertains in his hotel suite on tour.Usually they are wealthy. Hello, South America! He is also often late, off hand, not in any way accountable. You can have a list of vital things that you think you must discuss with him because you're trying to glue some amazing deal together to get him to x y or z location to do a b or c that he's decided he must do and he just won't let you talk about it. I found this untenable so I quit. The main reason I survived afterwards I think as a reasonable sane person in the latter part of the 20th century apart from the good fortune of being perched as I am on the edge of this sparsely populated continent called Australia - idyllic, is because I insisted he compensate me. He actually thanked me very warmly and said that one thing he appreciated was that I never complained about anything even although things were very demanding. Hey, maybe I'm a saint! Who of us did complain? I think premies are amazing, the most uncomplaining types there are. I found this remark curious because he was one of the biggest whingers of all time (whinge = complainers in Aussie). Again there are different rules for him. Was anybody at the party at the restaurant in Malibu in 1986 when he and Marilyn had a stand up row in public and she left. It was all over for me by then and just as well because at least two initiators freaked out. One of them asked me for guidance, what's going on, who's upsetting MJ etc and why is this happening. At the time, I thought and said 'because he's HUMAN (not divine, you see)' Maybe it was over the toothpaste. The point is that he is just a regular guy. He smokes cigarettes and like most smokers, he's addicted. He likes luxury and unlike most of us, he ensures that he lives in it. He believes he is worthy of everything that comes his way. NO SELF DOUBT that I ever noticed. Speak to you soon, Jim. Thanks for your comments. I'm running out of steam. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 15:11:05 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: KK Subject: Padarthanand Message: Thanks again for you insightful post. I wanted to comment on a couple of things, although my involvement ended in 1983, so it's older stuff: It was like this all the time. In 1986 MJ had to cancel the Pacific tour. Padarthanand was in the US giving everybody 'Pacific-sang' - anybody have the great fortune of listening to his wondrous diatribe about how perfect everything was in the Pacific? a place he'd established as a fiefdom until MJ realised he was an obstacle to financial progress and stuck him in satellite towns in the US on tour for about 9 months. I recall in the mid-70s Padarthanad was touring the US after spending perhaps a couple of years in Australia and the Pacific. Padarthanand went on and on (Padarthonon???) to me and some other premies, who were in charge of getting people ready for knowledge, about how togther the premies were in Australia and that such a large percentage were practicing knowledge, unlike the US, where maybe 10-20% did. Of course he took full credit for this divine situation. Later this turned out to be meaningless crap, of course. Then, he proceeded to make knowledge selections. One aspirant was a black guy I worked with (we were both zookeepers). I remember his name was Lannie. He was a great guy and very sincere. I sat in on the knowledge selection. Padarthanand asked him a couple of innocuous questions and then told him he lacked the dedication and surrender to Guru Maharaj Ji and wasn't ready for knowledge. Later, Padarthanad told me, in the most racist of terms, that 'black people are like people from Tahiti' and are very lazy, self-indulgent in pursuing pleasures and undisciplined. Here was this 'holy man' being an absolute bigot. It really freaked me out at the time. Of course, I tried to 'surrender' and didn't call him on it. Later, when Padarthanad toured, I always got the impression that he really wanted to be a guru himself, and was quite proud of himself and how devoted and spiritual he was. I could never forget those comments. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 10:57:03 (EST)
From: KK Email: None To: JW Subject: Padarthanand Message: Thank you so much for your anecdote about our old mate, Paddy. He had quite a way of playing the saint, didn't he? He and MJ are nooses around each other's neck. It's some kind of perverse mutual admiration society. If Pad. wasn't so fundamentally lacking in true character, he could find a spiritual job somewhere else extolling the virtues of Mother India and reciting the Mahabarata every breathing moment of the day to whoever he could find. Except no other Swami Ji would have him. He is without peer at the bottom of the snake oil salesman pile. Your story doesn't surprise me one bit. Thanks very much for telling it. It is very helpful for me to realise I wasn't going crazy when I internally railed against this behaviour. He was full of it. Apparently he's in this country continuing to impress those who are ready with his quaint little tomes about MJ and the peccadillos of his cluttered world as SUPER DEVOTEE.Being the thundering bore that he is. At least MJ will tell you to your face that he is tired, premied-out or sick of the D-line. Paddy is never less than perfect. Great hearing from you. You took me back. It's unconscionable, isn't it? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 16:47:18 (EST)
From: g's mom Email: None To: KK Subject: your letter Message: Dear KK, I just want to thank you for your post. I am not sure why but I find it very helpful to read stories from those who knew the man Rawat and not the mythologic character we worshipped. It helps a lot of things make sense. I wondered if they ever compensated some of the mucky mucks who left. I had hoped they did. JW posted recently about how it bothered him how Rawat brags about his children's educational successes and how that was financed from the hard work of men and women who gave up their own educational aspirations to Rawat. That to me is the crime he perpetrated that bothers me the most. So many bright, talented and caring people wasting their lives. So much lost potential to REALLY do good in the world. Too many people who could be anything they wanted instead running around getting him toys. I am glad you got out young enough to make something of your life. It seems there are many here who have rebuilt their lives very well. I am glad. Thanks again for your post. I am really hoping you will post more as you have already answered questions I have always had. Thank you. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 11:08:27 (EST)
From: KK Email: None To: g's mom Subject: your letter Message: Thanks very much. So very true. I'm glad I did get out for a heap of reasons but one main one sticks out. I became a premie because I wanted to do something for the planet, in my own quaint and idealistic way. I used to love the possibility of World Peace. I used to watch the busloads of Indian premies arriving for a program in India or even Orlando, and think, WOW, it's all happening. Of course, my grief was when I realsied that I'd been had. This was a personally damaging insight. I felt that I'd betrayed myself. However I have gone on to achieve some things which make me feel I'm honouring, not betraying my life. I just had to put one foot after the other and trust that the doors would open because at times early on, I felt so dysfunctional. Even just explaining to people, potential employers/friends what I'd been doing for 12 or 13 years and justifying it. 'Well, I wanted to make a difference on the planet' Yeah, but why did you pick a fake guru to do it with? Life's good, isn;'t it? I've never let MJ or his shabby outfit make me think otherwise for more than a nanosecond every blue moon. Cheers to you and thanks. PS When I told one of my peers at the top, I was blowing the joint (this is our slang for leaving), he told me that MJ had never tried to stop anyone who had truly made up their mind. MJ himself confirmed this to me and gave me his 'Blessings' for a new life. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 16:40:19 (EST)
From: bb Email: None To: KK Subject: KK Message: Of course that was a good deal different from the kind of stuff he would say at the programs. He was extremely heavy with all of those who were just listening to him at events. And the initiators would get back from thier private meetings with him and he would say the most life threatening things to them to maintain his control over them through fear and his I am god pretense. Maybe you and other inner circle guys had less trouble bailing out because of your proximity and you had the smarts to avoid satsang. But it is just an incredible acting job to go to programs and dance with the crown and act like god on earth and demand total everything from us and then on the hidden side be like he was. So many inner circle people have left and only bob mishler had the character and guts to try to help those who were being fooled by being honest and he tried to tell the story to others and not just leave the trapped ones to thier fate. Rennie davis couldn't care less about the consequences of all his cheerleading and advertising for rawat. He is a new ager and has no moral fiber to recognise his responsibility. You are the first one to step forward ,thank you, and it is going to help a number of people I know make the transition to clear thinking from the tightening grip he has on them. rawat has no intention of comeing clean and undoing his false claims that he is still presently makeing. maybe you are cute or something and rawat let you be in some special catagory when to most people he maintained the I am god thing. He kept up his front so that Bill Patterson, who was also close, was maintained in his devotee status until even HE finally cracked. After all HIS satsang he should do some time at the programs handing out info telling the truth. Of course during that 84,85,86 era rawat was makeing efforts to tone down the lord thing but it was still done with his comments that -I could keep it like this forever, but for the sake of propagation devotion won't be offered all the time-. Keeping many people still on the hook and these days he is back to the intensity of his divine self importance leaveing no way for the long suffering programmed ones to get out and flee. What happened to the guy who was in charge of the plane when on the first tour stop in Montreal the plane was turned off and then the heat was turned on too fast and most of the ebony trim we put on 'blued'? I heard rawat ripped into him really intensly. As you saw at that restaurant with Marolyn (probably toned down somewhat) and other occasions with others that you saw? It must have been stressful keeping up the pretense. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jul 08, 1998 at 05:58:24 (EST)
From: KK Email: None To: bb Subject: KK Message: What happened to Bill Patterson, bb? I remember him really well. It's hard to find a place to tell the story like Bob did because not every media outlet is all that interested. I've never tried but I don't think they'd be rushing me off my feet. I'm grateful that so many people are finding my short spots helpful. I had no real idea how much people are still processing because I've been so out of touch. There must be some other people out there who could have a chat to us. Not everybody is still at his feet, I'm certain. How about Joan Apter? Arthur Brigham? Julian West? Ira Woods? Michael Donner? etc etc etc Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 17:39:20 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: KK Subject: Letter FROM Linda Gross Message: Thank you for this. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 19:57:30 (EST)
From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: KK Subject: Post from KK Message: Welcome to the Forum, KK. I was starting to believe I had imagined you, and was thinking about writing you for permission to publish your email. What you've seen while you were close to Maharaji is important to not only ex's wrestling with their own freedom, but to those lurking premies who have so far only played with the idea of walking away from the cult. When you get a chance, I'd love to publish a Journeys entry from you so that what you have experienced will not end up in a Forum archive somewhere, but will remain on the site itself. Until then, keep posting. And start new threads. You'll get MANY responses! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 11:25:01 (EST)
From: KK Email: None To: Brian Subject: Post from KK Message: Hi Brian Thanks for your message. I'm just getting the hang of the internet. When I can work out about the other features of this site, I'll get into it! Meanwhile, I've been astounded at the response to my comment. I had a rarified view of it all obviously. I can't say much more than that I'm slowly remembering so many things about that 'lifetime' as I read the Forum. Not sure I want to have all this memory jogging! They were heady days. Not least of which was due to the relative pointlessness of it all at the end of the day. Did I really need to empty the entire contents of a premie's house in FIJI because MJ said he wanted to 'stay in a house', not a hotel. We literally emptied everything, I mean everything out of the house, put it into storage and spent two whole days up without sleep scrubbing it from wall to wall, refurnishing it, the whole hoo-ha. Wait for it. MJ arrived and looked around. Within 5 minutes, he decided he wanted to stay in a hotel, having made such an issue of the house scenario. When I told the premie owners, they were FURIOUS. They didn't even attend his program. I mean, does this sound NORMAL to you. I guess, if you think you are the most important person on the planet and everyone exists for your convenience. Anyway, I think these people were lucky because they wiped him as a result and got on with their lives. 'No guru's gonna heap shit on my house!' is their life headline.Very obliging Indian family. When I can work out the next step, I'll be back to you by email. If I go off the Forum sometimes, it's because I'm travelling with my work. Thanks for your encouragement, Brian. Talk to you again soon. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 11:47:10 (EST)
From: Rick Email: None To: KK Subject: Post from KK Message: Interesting story about the BM demanding a house and then cavalierly changing his mind, after the whole place had been turned upside down. Not surprising though, considering a sub-culture that put useless self-sacrifice up on a pedestal. I related to the couple ditching the BM after getting their face rubbed in the dirt like that. It jogged my memory about 'the first nail in the coffin' for my exodus. I was living in Miami with my ex-wife and 3 year-old son and Hans Jayanti 79 was going to be Kissimee. We saved and scrimped every last penny, and drove up there in a station wagon - we had no money for registration or admission; just barely enough to eat. We slept overnight in our station wagon in an orange grove, got woken up and evicted, and spent most of the night looking for a place to park and sleep. The next day we showed up and explained we were broke and had spent every last penny to get there. The dorks at the gate told us to panhandle from other premies entering the site, until we had the necessary $70 to pay the registration. I remember pleading for a waiver of the fee, but the honcho clearly didn't give two shits... pay up or move on. We felt too strongly about not wanting to panhandle so packed up and left. I remember the resentment I felt, 'Some fucking grace. Every last ditch effort to see the Great Lord, and sent on my way like yesterday's trash.' Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 20:41:21 (EST)
From: Joy Email: Bluebirdd@aol.com To: KK Subject: Letter FROM Linda Gross Message: Interesting post, KK. I wondered whatever happened to Peter Potter and now I know, nothing happened, he just kept doing what he did back in 1973 when I used to be his secretary in London. That guy *never* went to satsang or appeared to meditate (which, to a budding devotional premie like me was incomprehensible), just stayed at his desk 16 hours a day doing his service. Amazing that he is still working for Rawat. I hope he's at least making some money himself for all his years of hard work, he was a talented accountant. I think he married a rather nice ashram premie named Lee, I wonder if they are still together? (you could e-mail me if you like re anything personal) Dettmers always seemed like a total droid to me, he never gave satsang, either; those finance guys he had around him were pretty dedicated. Keep on posting, we all love to hear any tidbits from anyone on the inside of those residence walls. (And congratulations on getting your life back!) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 11:13:48 (EST)
From: KK Email: None To: Joy Subject: Letter FROM Linda Gross Message: G'day Joy Peter Potter married Angela in 1986. He divorced Lee who raised their daughter whom I gather Peter was very attached to I don't know if he's still into it. I agree he's a smart guy and a very polite and pleasant person to deal with. Dettmers was kind of DRY, wasn't he? He got married to Maria Isabel, the Portuguese ex-initiator in about 1985. He did used to give satsang during his brief reign as an initiator in the mid-1980s. Yeah, there was constant work. Never ending. I was sleep deprived for years. It never ended. I'll keep in touch. All the best. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 20:41:22 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: KK Subject: Letter FROM Linda Gross Message: Dear KK, Thank you for being so open. I hope some premies read this and it hits them as an awakening. Even a bit hard to here all these years later although I already suspected. Love, Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 20:51:20 (EST)
From: Selena Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Brian forgive me! Message: Let me start this with an offer to help if I can. It seems like the activity here is warranting maybe a slower archiving? Or I may just be deluded. I am listening to Garbage at high volume so awho knows? Send me an angel to love. Just a suggestion. And your comments on the 60 HH thread have earned you additional gopi dom. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 21:11:43 (EST)
From: Selena Email: None To: Brian Subject: I was supposed to email this Message: I screwed up. I didn't think about email til I posted - forgive me again???? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 19:43:53 (EST)
From: Gail Email: None To: RT Subject: RT - I've got the CD Message: Preceeded by 'Pony Man' and proceeded by Christian Island. I am anxiously awaiting your latest song. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 20:29:19 (EST)
From: Selena Email: None To: anonymous who knows Subject: abusing the song thread Message: Also note the 'as far from God lyrics'. listening to Garbage. cool Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 09:29:46 (EST)
From: RT Email: haha hoho hee hee To: Gail Subject: Gail,Gail, the 'sangs all here Message: Sat-song set to Race Among the Ruins by Gordon Lightfoot, from Gord's Gold Vol. 2, - for Gail MacDougall and her rave postings on Ex-Premie.org. READ ABOUT OUR DOINGS You know, you left the 'Cult', NOT love! You wish this can be true: (Even though God's freedom rises in you) -A simple refund; paid your dues. You make the best of each new day You try not to be mad. Even through the years of premie concepts, At least breathing makes you glad. When you wake up to His Story: The Decades That We Blew Holi Chit! Colors sprayed? Wet dreams of Rawat Two! So go inside - our web site! - And read about our doings Collectively, we've lifetimes of effort, brewing. The forum page is lettered by the tomes of other ones, Who left the 'magic' of a 'moment world' - where thinking is undone. You try to understand it but you always seem to find A devotee on the World Wide Web who speaks from programmed mind. When your VISA card is frozen - from the programs where you flew Thousands of dollars spent for a glimpse of a guru Just go inside - our web site! - And read about our doings Collection calls, credit lines, our interest rates are stewing. So take the best of all that's left, and know this cannot last Love the Creation in your heart. And as this message will go fast, Just feel the newer peace within - for now you understand - A post-as-usual situation: Knowledge without M is grand! When you wake up and remember all the images you viewed - Visions' Hypno-videos: they wash brains in Malibu. Spend time inside-our web site! And read about our doings God and the 'net is greater for they reveal...master's ruing! When you want, awaken others, Just Say Know - because it's due: Chit-wrecked upon his boat - inside the moat of Satguru. Go sailing through our web site! And read about our doings- We've heard the Master's decree. We laugh about...Sat-suing! RT Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 12:36:18 (EST)
From: Gail Email: freedom@gtn.net To: RT Subject: Gail,Gail, the 'sangs all here Message: Thank you. I am just about to crack the cellophane and hear the new tune. Here's looking at you, kid! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |