Ex-Premie.Org

Forum III Archive # 16

From: Jul 3, 1998

To: Jul 11, 1998

Page: 4 Of: 5



Becky -:- The Prophet -:- Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 08:09:41 (EST)
__Sir David -:- The Prophet -:- Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 08:47:20 (EST)
__Jim -:- The Prophet -:- Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 10:59:48 (EST)
____Becky -:- The Prophet -:- Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 11:21:28 (EST)
______Jim -:- The Prophet -:- Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 13:50:38 (EST)
__Jethro -:- The Prophet -:- Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 11:46:09 (EST)
__Mickey the Pharisee -:- The Prophet -:- Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 14:22:20 (EST)
____jethro -:- The Prophet -:- Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 17:24:44 (EST)
______Mickey the Pharisee -:- The Prophet -:- Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 18:49:13 (EST)
________Jethro -:- The Prophet -:- Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 01:00:17 (EST)
__________Becky -:- The Prophet -:- Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 14:54:59 (EST)
____________Jim -:- The Prophet -:- Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 16:21:00 (EST)
____________jethro -:- The Prophet -:- Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 17:15:45 (EST)
______________Scott T. -:- Islam is not a 'cult' -:- Wed, Jul 08, 1998 at 00:40:21 (EST)
________________Jethro -:- Islam is not a 'cult' -:- Wed, Jul 08, 1998 at 01:26:22 (EST)
________________Gail -:- Islam is not a 'cult' -:- Wed, Jul 08, 1998 at 01:33:05 (EST)
__________________jethro -:- Islam is not a 'cult' -:- Wed, Jul 08, 1998 at 05:29:59 (EST)
__________________Scott T. -:- Islam is not a 'cult' -:- Wed, Jul 08, 1998 at 18:35:18 (EST)
________________Gerry -:- Islam is not a 'cult' -:- Wed, Jul 08, 1998 at 11:31:13 (EST)
__________________Katie -:- Thyroid off topic -:- Wed, Jul 08, 1998 at 13:15:31 (EST)
____________________Stephen Harris -:- Thyroid off topic -:- Wed, Jul 08, 1998 at 14:25:11 (EST)
______________________Katie -:- Thyroid off topic -:- Wed, Jul 08, 1998 at 16:14:52 (EST)
__________________Sir David -:- Thyroid problems. Please read -:- Wed, Jul 08, 1998 at 21:39:47 (EST)
____________________Katie -:- Thyroid problems. Please read -:- Wed, Jul 08, 1998 at 22:33:07 (EST)
______________________Stephen Harris -:- Thyroid problems. Please read -:- Thurs, Jul 09, 1998 at 01:39:12 (EST)
____________Scott T. -:- The Prophet -:- Wed, Jul 08, 1998 at 00:21:21 (EST)
______________Becky -:- The Prophet -:- Wed, Jul 08, 1998 at 08:08:51 (EST)
________________Jim -:- The Prophet -:- Wed, Jul 08, 1998 at 09:32:58 (EST)
________________Scott T. -:- Renaissance in Islam -:- Wed, Jul 08, 1998 at 18:24:24 (EST)
____Becky -:- Answer to Mickey -:- Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 15:00:03 (EST)
______Mickey the Pharisee -:- Answer to Mickey -:- Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 16:12:45 (EST)
__Jean-Michel -:- Pictures? -:- Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 13:03:13 (EST)
____Becky -:- Pictures? -:- Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 15:03:13 (EST)

again with the -:- conversations with Mark *<* -:- Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 02:30:08 (EST)
__Jim -:- *<* is the conscious power! -:- Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 11:06:57 (EST)
____bb -:- *<* grope grope -:- Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 12:05:01 (EST)
______Jim -:- nope nope -:- Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 13:49:12 (EST)
__Mark -:- conversations with Mark *<* -:- Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 11:55:23 (EST)
____Jim -:- conversations with Mark *<* -:- Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 13:44:12 (EST)
____Gail -:- Who is John Coltrane? -:- Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 15:28:18 (EST)
______bftb -:- Who is John Coltrane? -:- Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 15:41:57 (EST)
________JW -:- Who is John Coltrane? -:- Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 16:49:00 (EST)
__________bftb -:- Who is John Coltrane? -:- Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 16:54:27 (EST)
____________JW -:- Who is John Coltrane? -:- Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 17:01:07 (EST)
______________Mickey the Pharisee -:- Who is John Coltrane? -:- Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 19:00:57 (EST)
________________JW -:- Who is John Coltrane? -:- Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 19:05:47 (EST)
________________bftb -:- Who is John Coltrane? -:- Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 19:09:51 (EST)
__________________Judex -:- Who is John Coltrane? -:- Wed, Jul 08, 1998 at 08:14:11 (EST)
______________Scott T. -:- Who is John Coltrane? -:- Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 19:02:38 (EST)
________________david f. -:- Who is John Coltrane? -:- Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 00:22:26 (EST)
__________________Katie -:- California -:- Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 07:39:49 (EST)
____________________Scott T. -:- Down home in California -:- Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 21:20:42 (EST)
______________________david f. -:- Down home in California -:- Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 23:23:49 (EST)
________________________Scott T. -:- Down home in California -:- Wed, Jul 08, 1998 at 21:17:41 (EST)
__________________Robyn -:- Who is John Coltrane? -:- Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 16:12:13 (EST)
____________________david f. -:- Barney who? -:- Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 23:28:52 (EST)
______________________Robyn -:- Barney who? -:- Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 23:50:41 (EST)
________________________Judex -:- to Robyn -:- Wed, Jul 08, 1998 at 08:53:40 (EST)
__________________________Robin -:- to Robyn -:- Wed, Jul 08, 1998 at 12:12:47 (EST)

ANOTHER -:- Thank you -:- Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 01:15:16 (EST)
__the other one -:- spank you -:- Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 02:58:43 (EST)
____John Hammond-Smyth -:- spank you harder! -:- Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 06:31:20 (EST)
______Judex -:- spank you harder! -:- Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 08:38:30 (EST)
________Scott T. -:- spank you harder! -:- Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 13:16:23 (EST)
__Mark -:- Thank you -:- Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 12:20:56 (EST)
____Another -:- What Technique's? -:- Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 19:26:09 (EST)
______Scott T. -:- A rainbow in crooked space -:- Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 20:22:31 (EST)
______Jim -:- Poker -:- Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 20:43:35 (EST)
______Richard -:- Take a look around you... -:- Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 10:46:52 (EST)

Gail -:- News about Miami - July 4 -:- Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 22:47:57 (EST)
__Scott T. -:- News about Miami - July 4 -:- Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 00:00:02 (EST)
__RT -:- News about beyond -:- Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 09:32:27 (EST)
__CD -:- July 4,1997 - Oakland -:- Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 11:07:52 (EST)
____Scott T. -:- July 4,1997 - Oakland -:- Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 12:33:36 (EST)
______Selena -:- July 4,1997 - Oakland -:- Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 13:01:07 (EST)
________x -:- relief after programs -:- Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 13:38:56 (EST)
__________Selena -:- relief after programs -:- Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 14:46:54 (EST)
____________x -:- relief after programs -:- Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 16:14:35 (EST)
______________g's mom -:- compliments galore -:- Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 16:54:41 (EST)
________________bb -:- compliments galore -:- Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 19:14:46 (EST)
__________________x -:- compliments galore -:- Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 20:42:25 (EST)
____________________VP -:- hitting close to home, x -:- Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 02:26:05 (EST)
__________Katie -:- I hated festivals -:- Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 07:48:00 (EST)
____________John -:- I hated festivals -:- Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 09:38:08 (EST)
____________JW -:- Confession -:- Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 13:43:08 (EST)
______________g's mom -:- you are absolved... -:- Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 19:29:50 (EST)
________________JW -:- you are absolved... -:- Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 19:48:31 (EST)
________Richard -:- Post-Festival euphoria... -:- Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 10:57:43 (EST)
__________Selena -:- Post-Festival euphoria... -:- Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 13:21:12 (EST)

Brian -:- Site Stuff -:- Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 21:52:35 (EST)
__Robyn -:- Site Stuff -:- Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 07:51:06 (EST)
____JW -:- Annie DiFranco -:- Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 19:19:24 (EST)
______Robyn -:- Annie DiFranco -:- Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 10:10:35 (EST)
________JW -:- Annie DiFranco -:- Wed, Jul 08, 1998 at 13:12:35 (EST)
__________Robyn -:- Annie DiFranco -:- Wed, Jul 08, 1998 at 18:08:32 (EST)
__Brian -:- Mother found -:- Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 13:03:59 (EST)
____Robyn -:- Mother found -:- Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 10:12:39 (EST)
__RT -:- Sited -:- Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 15:07:31 (EST)

Gail -:- Will I ever be free of this? -:- Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 21:19:57 (EST)
__JW -:- Yes, But Not Completely IMHO -:- Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 21:32:02 (EST)
__Scott T. -:- Will I ever be free of this? -:- Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 21:35:16 (EST)
__TD -:- Will I ever be free of this? -:- Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 22:11:26 (EST)
____Scott T. -:- The ghost of gratitude. -:- Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 00:27:12 (EST)
__Katie -:- Will I ever be free of this? -:- Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 23:28:35 (EST)
__tony -:- Will I ever be free of this? -:- Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 05:54:37 (EST)
____Judex -:- Will I ever be free of this? -:- Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 06:34:51 (EST)
______Scott T. -:- A few metaphysical questions? -:- Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 09:47:44 (EST)
________Sir David -:- A few metaphysical questions? -:- Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 10:18:46 (EST)
__________x -:- A few metaphysical questions? -:- Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 13:47:05 (EST)
____________John -:- Rod Steiger is God -:- Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 15:22:11 (EST)
______________bftb -:- Rod Steiger is God -:- Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 15:27:23 (EST)
________________John -:- Rod Steiger is God -:- Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 16:32:43 (EST)
__________________bftb -:- Rod Steiger is God -:- Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 16:50:46 (EST)
____________________John -:- My Bad! -:- Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 16:57:27 (EST)
________Judex -:- A few metaphysical questions? -:- Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 01:21:56 (EST)
______tony -:- Hell? -:- Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 15:36:02 (EST)
________Mickey the Pharisee -:- Hell? -:- Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 16:08:58 (EST)
__________JW -:- Hell? -:- Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 18:43:49 (EST)
____________Mickey the Pharisee -:- Hell? -:- Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 18:56:47 (EST)
______________Sir David -:- Sensations beyond -:- Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 19:51:12 (EST)
________________Jim -:- You're kidding, right? -:- Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 22:40:34 (EST)
______________Scott T. -:- FDEs -:- Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 20:59:14 (EST)
________________Mickey the Pharisee -:- FDEs -:- Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 21:44:17 (EST)
________Scott T. -:- Hell? -:- Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 16:31:25 (EST)
__________Tony -:- Hell? -:- Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 18:39:47 (EST)
________Judex -:- Hell? -:- Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 01:32:01 (EST)
__________Tony -:- Enjoy you life. -:- Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 18:35:38 (EST)
____________Judex -:- Enjoy you life. -:- Wed, Jul 08, 1998 at 02:12:24 (EST)

You Don't Want to Know -:- Trailer Trash -:- Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 20:47:28 (EST)

Rick -:- JW-Thread from Inactive -:- Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 14:19:48 (EST)
__Peter -:- blown away again -:- Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 15:13:01 (EST)
__Robyn -:- JW-Thread from Inactive -:- Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 15:35:02 (EST)
__Jim -:- JW-Thread from Inactive -:- Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 16:25:18 (EST)
____Rick -:- JW-Thread from Inactive -:- Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 18:21:03 (EST)
__Selena -:- JW-Thread from Inactive -:- Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 18:18:00 (EST)
____Robyn -:- JW-Thread from Inactive -:- Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 19:33:29 (EST)
__VP -:- Perceptive, Rick -:- Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 21:01:10 (EST)
__JW -:- Thanks, Rick -:- Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 21:33:58 (EST)
__Richard -:- JW-Thread from Inactive -:- Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 06:14:53 (EST)

Jim -:- Question for PT -:- Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 13:18:37 (EST)

TD -:- 'In Your Body' -:- Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 04:16:35 (EST)
__Sir David -:- 'In Your Body' -:- Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 07:36:31 (EST)
____Gail -:- The Doubt-maker -:- Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 08:46:52 (EST)
__Robyn -:- 'In Your Body' -:- Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 13:16:04 (EST)
____Barney -:- 'In Your Body' -:- Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 14:34:05 (EST)
______Sir David -:- Le Tour -:- Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 14:50:03 (EST)
________Scott T. -:- Tour de Eire -:- Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 15:26:52 (EST)
__________Sir David -:- Tour de Eire -:- Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 06:39:31 (EST)
____________Scott T. -:- Tour de Eire -:- Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 10:00:38 (EST)
______________Sir David -:- Tour de Eire -:- Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 12:52:26 (EST)
________________Scott T. -:- Recumbent [D]o [N]ot [A]scends -:- Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 14:44:42 (EST)
__________________Sir David -:- Recumbent [D]o [N]ot [A]scends -:- Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 20:46:56 (EST)
____________________Scott T. -:- CRABS -:- Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 21:27:48 (EST)
__________________JW -:- Recumbent [D]o [N]ot [A]scends -:- Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 20:54:28 (EST)
____________________Scott T. -:- Recumbent [D]o [N]ot [A]scends -:- Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 21:38:15 (EST)
________________JW -:- Tour de Eire -:- Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 19:00:18 (EST)
__________________Sir David -:- Loyal to what? -:- Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 21:01:02 (EST)
____________________JW -:- Loyal to what? -:- Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 14:02:34 (EST)
________Barney -:- What's the word? -:- Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 17:10:16 (EST)
__________Gerry -:- What's the word? -:- Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 18:00:12 (EST)
____________Scott T. -:- What's the word? -:- Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 19:25:40 (EST)
______________Gerry -:- What's the word? -:- Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 12:14:15 (EST)
________________Barney -:- Normality -:- Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 02:03:20 (EST)
______Katie -:- 'Poisoned thinking' -:- Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 20:33:47 (EST)
__Scott T. -:- Through the clouds. -:- Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 15:18:19 (EST)
__Peter -:- escapism -:- Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 15:37:36 (EST)
____VP -:- escapism -:- Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 21:38:21 (EST)
____TD -:- Thanks fellow exes.... -:- Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 21:38:38 (EST)
______JW -:- Thanks fellow exes.... -:- Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 23:13:13 (EST)
________Katie -:- Thanks fellow exes.... -:- Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 23:31:54 (EST)
________TD -:- Thanks JW! -:- Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 02:59:47 (EST)
__________JW -:- French Films -:- Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 13:49:03 (EST)


Date: Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 08:09:41 (EST)
From: Becky
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: The Prophet
Message:
Jim, I can't believe your cartoon version of what happened in the 7th century. I'm asking you for some thoroughly researched facts about what happened.

Mohammed (saws) was mentioned by name in the Bible by Jesus. Mohammed was known, even by those who did not like him, as 'the trustworthy'. yes, he was an illiterate, which makes the Qur'an all the more amazing, since its poetry makes even grown men cry, and it covers every aspect of our lives, and mentions other 'People of the Book' who it is unlikely that Mohammed would have known. the Qur'an even corrects Mohammed (saws) on mistakes that he made.

don't tell me you know about Islam if you have not read the Qur'an.
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Date: Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 08:47:20 (EST)
From: Sir David
Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com
To: Becky
Subject: The Prophet
Message:
Who's this Mohammed Saws guy? I am interested to know where it says in the Bible that Jesus mentioned Mohammed by name. Could you perhaps give us it, chapter & verse? I've never read it myself. I'm just curious.
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Date: Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 10:59:48 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Becky
Subject: The Prophet
Message:
I don't have to read Hans Yog Prakesh to know that Shri Hans was just another ambitious pretender in a burgeoining market of gurus. I don't have to read Dianetics to know that L. Ron Hubbard was just an author and cult leader. What part of the Koran (or Qur'an, if it makes such a big difference) are you referring to? And why?

By the way, where does Jesus mention Mohammed by name? I'd love to see this. And what's your point if he does?

Don't be so gullible, Becky. You'd think that after your tour with Maharaji you'd have learnt something about the mistake of deifying other human beings. You want facts? You want me to find you a good historical -- not religious -- description of Mahammed's life? All you're going to come up with is a fanatic cult leader who offered people submission to him or the sword. Is that the 'strange, mysterious guidance' you were speaking of in your 'atheism' post? Too bad he's not with us today, huh?

Okay, I'll get you 'facts'. Meanwhile, I'd like to hear more about:

1) Jesus talking about him by name.
2) how you know that his critics called him 'the trustworthy'.
3) what this 'People of the Book' thing is you're talking about.
4) what you mean by the book 'covers every aspect of our lives'
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Date: Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 11:21:28 (EST)
From: Becky
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: The Prophet
Message:
Saws means sall'allah alaihi wa salem - literally blessings and peace of God upon him.
Certainly I will get you the reference in the Bible to Mohammed.
I'm not deifying another human being. To do that in Islam is VERY WRONG!. It is God (source of everything) to which I am turning.

For me Mohammed was a man of integrity was inspired. OK call me gullible, may be I am. I'm willing to see the other side.

I will also get you accounts of those who called him 'the trustworthy'.

Sorry Sir David to go rather off the point of M here.
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Date: Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 13:50:38 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Becky
Subject: The Prophet
Message:
I'm not deifying another human being.

????????
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Date: Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 11:46:09 (EST)
From: Jethro
Email: cadbury@compuserve.com
To: Becky
Subject: The Prophet
Message:
'Mohammed (saws) was mentioned by name in the Bible by Jesus'
No he wasn't. Please state where.

'Mohammed was known, even by those who did not like him, as 'the trustworthy'. yes, he was an illiterate, which makes the Qur'and all the more amazing, since its poetry makes even grown men cry, and it covers every aspect of our lives, and mentions other 'People of the Book' who it is unlikely that Mohammed would have known. the Qur'an even corrects Mohammed (saws) on mistakes that he made.'
Mohammed's early associates were Jews and Christians so he knew very well the People of the Book.

Reards Jethro
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Date: Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 14:22:20 (EST)
From: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net
To: Becky
Subject: The Prophet
Message:
Becky,
I have read the Qur'an and the Hebrew and Christian scriptures (in Hebrew and in Greek) and I have never come across any passage in the NT in which Jesus refers to Mohammed (saws) by name. Please give your reference! I work with the Hebrew and Christian scriptures almost everyday, so I am very interested in your claim.
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Date: Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 17:24:44 (EST)
From: jethro
Email: None
To: Mickey the Pharisee
Subject: The Prophet
Message:
it is a claim used by some Muslims.
In song of songs ch 5, verse 16, it says '....yes, he is all together lovely' which in classical hebrew is '...mehammdim....'.
It os a weaker of premie claims using various scriptures that prempals coming has been prophesised.....usual bullshit.
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Date: Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 18:49:13 (EST)
From: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net
To: jethro
Subject: The Prophet
Message:
Thanks, Jethro.
I looked up the reference in my Biblia Hebraica and there it is: mehammidim. This is really a stretch, though, as the Song of Songs is pretty much erotic poetry, not prophesy.
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Date: Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 01:00:17 (EST)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Mickey the Pharisee
Subject: The Prophet
Message:
'I looked up the reference in my Biblia Hebraica and there it is: mehammidim. This is really a stretch,though, as the Song of Songs is pretty much erotic poetry, not prophesy.'

I agree. But it's the usual sort of stuff when people want to prove they are the only ones who are right. They will do summersalts.
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Date: Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 14:54:59 (EST)
From: Becky
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: The Prophet
Message:
The Qur'an mentions the Sabians, a group of Christians who lived in Lower Iraq.

I've seen two books about the mention in the bible, however, I did not buy them, so be patient guys, I'll have to go back to the bookshop to get them.

HAS ANYONE ACTUALLY READ OR HEARD THE QUR'AN BEFORE ALL THESE OPINIONS ARE BANDIED ABOUT? HAS ANYBODY ACTUALLY LIVED WITH MUSLIMS?

We hear so much bad about Islam, but there is a huge amount of good in it as well, a lot sense, compassion, nobility and responsibility.

At least the Prophet never claimed to be God or the son of God. For me the Prophet (saws) is a man who was inspired so strongly to remind us of a pure way of life that he could not keep his mouth closed about it. Its A way, not THE way. Even the Qur'an says 'you have your religion, I have mine', exhorting people to accept one another's differences.
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Date: Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 16:21:00 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Becky
Subject: The Prophet
Message:
Becky,

You really should read The Lucifer Principle. Believe me. You can get it at Amazon books and you'll find it interesting for sure.

I don't think reading the Koran (my preferred spelling, if you don't mind)could possibly prove Mohammed's legitimacy anymore than reading A course in Miracles could prove that that's a 'channeled' text. Get real. Look at the history, look at the REAL history -- not the one the religion will give you. Consider, if you will, plain old common sense.

Living with Muslims? What the hell is that going to show you? Not a single thing in terms of the validity of their belief. Nothing. Zip. Like I just said a minute ago, Heaven's Gaters were, by all acounts, the nicest people you could possibly meet. Give me a break. Believe it or not, so are Moonies.
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Date: Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 17:15:45 (EST)
From: jethro
Email: None
To: Becky
Subject: The Prophet
Message:
'HAS ANYONE ACTUALLY READ OR HEARD THE QUR'AN BEFORE ALL THESE OPINIONS ARE BANDIED ABOUT? HAS ANYBODY ACTUALLY LIVED WITH
MUSLIMS? '

yes, I have studied the Quaran at length. and spent many years discussing islam with commited Muslims. I also lived in Jerusalem for 6 years with muslims and Xtians.
Don't be fooled it is another cult, but has develop sophistication over the centuries as have other religions. It is all about control.
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Date: Wed, Jul 08, 1998 at 00:40:21 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: jethro
Subject: Islam is not a 'cult'
Message:
Jethro:

Don't be fooled it is another cult, but has develop sophistication over the centuries as have other religions. It is all about control.

To refer to the rich tapestry of a 1500 year old civilization, that preserved science and learning while our Christian culture was mired in the dark ages, as a 'cult' is an extraordinarily shallow interpretation. I would suggest you really know little about it. I'd give you the names of some people who write knowledgeably about Islamic culture, but I'm not 'allowed' to provide citations. Well, I will anyway. Ernest Gellner, 'Conditions of Liberty: Civil Society and It's Rivals.'

-Scott T.
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Date: Wed, Jul 08, 1998 at 01:26:22 (EST)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Islam is not a 'cult'
Message:
'To refer to the rich tapestry of a 1500 year old civilization, that preserved science and learning while our Christian culture was mired in the dark ages, as a 'cult' is an extraordinarily shallow interpretation. '
Indeed muslims have given much to the world. In fact every CULTure has. I was referring to the underlying belief system, it is no different in trying to capture 'souls' than than the RadhaSoami lines. The perniciousness is there in ALL religions. A religion is a long-time cult. In 1000 years there will probably still be those that worship prempal, but I'm sure it won't be called a cult.

'I would suggest you really know little about it.'
I probably know more than most since I was seriously considering of becoming Muslim at one point in my life. They have something similar to the 'aspirant program', only as I said they have become more sophisticated over the centuries.

'I'd give you the names of some people who write knowledgeably about Islamic culture,'
No need, but thanks.I haved lived and do live among extrememly cultured Muslims of all sects. I could probably write a thesis on Muslim sects.

' but I'm not 'allowed' to provide citations.'
Why not????Please clarify

I aslo know that when my belief about prempal started to go I became very vulnerable to other belief systems, at least for a while. As someone I knwo once said 'A trap is very easy to get into, but hard to get out of'.

Jethro
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Date: Wed, Jul 08, 1998 at 01:33:05 (EST)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: Islam is not a 'cult'
Message:
A 15-year-old female student at my school has immigrated here from some Arab nation. Anyway, she is a moslem. Her father took an axe to her in May, 1998 because she wasn't towing the party line. She was attracted to some boy; her father already has her marriage arranged. He cracked her skull open, pulverized a vertebrae, smashed her fingers, and gave her some good gashes.

The father has been given two years probation and the CAS has taken the children. Of course, in Canada, nothing much happens

Wives and children are chattels of the man. Cliterodectomies are performed at the kitchen table. The men have no respect for females. Are you into S & M. It is another authoritarian structure. Have you read the Guru Papers yet?
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Date: Wed, Jul 08, 1998 at 05:29:59 (EST)
From: jethro
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: Islam is not a 'cult'
Message:
'A 15-year-old female student at my school has immigrated here from some Arab nation. Anyway,she is a moslem. Her father took an axe to her in May, 1998 because she wasn't towing the party line. She was attracted to some boy; her father already has her marriage arranged. He cracked her skull open, pulverized a vertebrae, smashed her fingers, and gave her some good gashes. '

Happenings like this also happen quite a bit here in the UK.

'Wives and children are chattels of the man. Cliterodectomies are performed at the kitchen table.'
'Female circumcision' is not actually part of Islam although it is still practised in some places.

'Are you into S & M. It is another authoritarian structure.'
What is S & M?

'Have you read the Guru Papers yet?'
No, but I will get a copy when I visit the USA in a couple of weeks.
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Date: Wed, Jul 08, 1998 at 18:35:18 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: Islam is not a 'cult'
Message:
Gail:

This sort of thing is rife in so-called 'traditional' cultures. It really has little to do with Islam, except that the higher teachings of Islamic law have never superseded those of village life, as they began to do in the West after the Reformation. There are enormous changes under way in the Islamic world, that have gone largely ignored becase we know so little about what is going on. I'm not interested in Islam per se, but in the potential for civil and open society that exests within the culture. I am totally against the sort of 'rake out the old and replace with the new' kind of ideology proposed by the authors of the Guru Papers. I'll have a lot to say about that eventually, but am still trudging through their document. It is not a good idea the replace a 1500 year old culture with a half-baked theory, IMHO.

-Scott
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Date: Wed, Jul 08, 1998 at 11:31:13 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Islam is not a 'cult'
Message:
but I'm not 'allowed' to provide citations.

Scott,

I feel bad about this. And I'm probably the one who laid this on you. I objected only to your referring to someone and not linking it to some part of the discussion, i.e. a ''bald reference.''

Please cite away. I find it valuable and intellectually stimulating. I guess I was just being churlish, kinda like you are now.

BTW, I've been provided with a convenient excuse for my pique and occasional irritation. No, it's not ''the devil made me do it.''
It's hypothyroidism. Symptoms: Listlessness, irritation, depression, weight gain, and more. A little pill cures it, in my case. We'll see.
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Date: Wed, Jul 08, 1998 at 13:15:31 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: Thyroid off topic
Message:
Hey Gerry - I hope the little pill works. I am hypothyroid too. About five years ago I became severely hyperthyroid (heart racing, the shakes, anxiety, and generally feeling nuts), and had to get radioactive iodine treatment on my thyroid. I immediately felt a LOT better - hyperthyroid is hell. Anyway the effects of the radiation treatment vary, but it generally blows out most if not all of your thyroid function, and I've been on Synthroid ever since. Since the damage to the thyroid took place over a period of a year or so, I was clinically hypothyroid a few times, and I was, as you say, depressed, lethargic, gained weight, etc. The Synthroid really does help me and I hope it helps you too (make sure to get your levels tested if it doesn't seem to work.)

I guess I can't be mad at you for Indie Yahweh anymore, huh? ('My thyroid made me do it!').

Take care,
Katie
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Date: Wed, Jul 08, 1998 at 14:25:11 (EST)
From: Stephen Harris
Email: mulcyber@pacbell.net
To: Katie
Subject: Thyroid off topic
Message:
The diagnosis of hypothyroidism does not occur till middle-age
for quite a few people, myself included. It is unclear how
much natural remedies(dietary supplements and vitamins) help
in comparison to Synthroid. I finished Last Call which I liked
more than most SF books. Many Regards - Stephen
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Date: Wed, Jul 08, 1998 at 16:14:52 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Stephen Harris
Subject: Thyroid off topic
Message:
Hi Stephen - glad you liked the book. I have read three of his books, and that is definitely the best one IMHO. (I bet you could relate to some parts of it very well.) I think Las Vegas is a fascinating but horrible place, and he conveys that very well in the book.

I personally would never try to go off Synthroid and try natural remedies because I know I don't have a working thyroid gland anymore. But natural remedies might be helpful for other people whose thyroid is just less active than it should be. Which remedies and vitamins are recommended for this?

Take care,
Katie
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Date: Wed, Jul 08, 1998 at 21:39:47 (EST)
From: Sir David
Email: DavidStudio57@btinternet.com
To: Gerry
Subject: Thyroid problems. Please read
Message:
I've just noticed this post and will say this before I go to bed. A simple yet effective treatment for an UNDERactive thyroid gland is kelp. Kelp tablets can be obtained from most health shops or herbalists and are inexpensive. One or two of these taken each day will put natural iodine into your system which will stimulate your thyroid glands to produce the hormone, thyroxin. It is a LACK of thyroxin from an underactive thyroid gland which causes the tiredness and sluggishness.

I know all this because last year I was diagnosed as having thyroid cancer and had one half of my thyroid gland removed. Fortunately, the diagnosis was wrong and it was just fibrous tissue. But after I had half my thyroid removed I suffered badly from sluggishness due to less thyroxin being produced. A friend suggested I take kelp tablets and they did work in getting my (half) thyroid gland working better. They made a bifg difference.

Taking iodine from kelp is preferable to taking synthetic thyroxin because taking synthetic (or animal) thyroxin only serves to shut down the thyroid glands production of thyroxin. Taking kelp actually stimulated the thyroid to work better, which is a much more preferable treatment if the thyroid can be kick started back into action. I think in Katie's case, the kelp, iodine for her damaged thyroid, might not have been an option if the gland was too badly damaged. I don't know without having more details.
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Date: Wed, Jul 08, 1998 at 22:33:07 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Sir David
Subject: Thyroid problems. Please read
Message:
Thanks David - I might even try it.

The treatment I had was to take a pill of Iodine-235, which, as you probably know, is a radioactive isotope of iodine. The half-life of I-235 is only a week, so it is not very dangerous. (The guys at the radiology lab had to make me sit there for half an hour after I took the pill to make sure I didn't throw up and cause a radiation spill. Really! It was pretty funny.) Anyway, as I'm sure you know, iodine accumulates in the thyroid, so the iodine-235 isotope migrated to the thyroid gland and destroyed part of it. The doctor I presently have says the I-235 treatment usually destroys almost all the thyroid functioning.

I was given three options: surgery to remove the entire gland, drug therapy (which apparently can have huge side effects), and this radiation treatment. I thought the radiation treatment was least invasive and so I opted for that.

Thanks for the information, David. I have a friend who just had an operation that was very similar to yours - removal of a non-malignant tumor plus part of his thyroid - so will let him know.
Take care,
Katie
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Date: Thurs, Jul 09, 1998 at 01:39:12 (EST)
From: Stephen Harris
Email: mulcyber@pacbell.net
To: Katie
Subject: Thyroid problems. Please read
Message:
Kelp may help, but I don't think it is enough. Some natural
vitamin person recommended to me, this bottle of natural type
iodine that I put three drops of into water. My supplier was
giving me the natural vitamins Biotics provides. Also thyrotsin,
livertret, Chromium, and a multi-vitamin. Internet has a
newsgroup for this where they debate over ingesting natural
type products and Synthroid and other questions.
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Date: Wed, Jul 08, 1998 at 00:21:21 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Becky
Subject: The Prophet
Message:
Becky:

I had a roommate from Jordan for about six months who was a devout Muslim. He graduated at the top of his class in the Jordanian Military Academy, and was the top foreign cadet at Sandhurst. He was easily the best roommate I ever had. He learned English from a Scottish drill sergeant at Sandhurst so he spoke with a combination of middle eastern accents and a brogue. It was very unique. He 'trilled' his 'r's.

He had never learned to cook for himself, and found it an unbelievable hardship, which he accepted with great nobility, but little skill. Just couldn't get over the fact that after all that work you just ingested the stuff and a few hours later you had to do the whole rigmarole again. It was really depressing for him, a horrible waste of time. He was also astonished that you couldn't leave bread in the cupboard for three weeks, and that the milk would actually sour within a month, even though it was in the refrigerator. When I told him about the milk thing it really solved a big problem, since he had been thinking that the corn flakes had really gotten to taste nasty for some mysterious reason.

He used to just walk into my room and sit down on the bed when he got back from school or something and just start conversing. There weren't many boundaries between people. A sort of village mentality where all the space was common. Of course, there are a lot of taboos. He would stop in the middle of a conversation to go in his room and pray. He said he could never ride a bike in Jordan. It would be like walking around without any clothes, although he liked bike riding here. If Zaid is any representative of Islamic culture I would have to concur that it is humane, thoughtful, and good natured, as well as deeply committed.

-Scott
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Date: Wed, Jul 08, 1998 at 08:08:51 (EST)
From: Becky
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: The Prophet
Message:
Like you Scott, I do find an incredible nobility and sense of honour in Islam.
gail, re: women.

All the Prophet's wives were highly educated, intelligent, strong women who argued with him about all kind of things. He was very gentle and kind with them, and often married to get them out of a tight spot rather than because he was in love with them. However, the traditional Arabs did not like the freedom that his wives had and a father of one of his wives tried to tell him to discipline the woman more. it seems that, over the years, the traditional Arab view of women has overridden the revolutionary aspect of Islam, in which a woman could work, own property, save all the money she earned for herself, educate herself etc. Even a lot of Muslim women reinforce the old stereotype of what a woman's role should be.
With regard to the axe: in Britain a British father has just been given a life sentence for beating his daughter to death with an iron bar.
Islam is about being committed to being a noble , just, person. The Sufi aspect of Islam are about experiencing the bliss of the creator. Islam is not monolythic. It is extremely divers.
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Date: Wed, Jul 08, 1998 at 09:32:58 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Becky
Subject: The Prophet
Message:
Islam is about being committed to being a noble , just, person. The Sufi aspect of Islam are about experiencing the bliss of the creator. Islam is not monolythic. It is extremely divers.

Becky,

What Islam is really 'about' is accepting as true an ancient fable about yet another guy-in-a-cave as being 'God's messemger'. That's the trip. And, yes, that IS extremely monolithic. And false.

Now, if you're not interested in the TRUTH of the matter so much as all the nice people, traditions and cultural archana of this 'major world religion', fine. Personally, I thought the Al Hambra was beautiful. And I met a number of interesting people in Morocco. They were all Muslim but.. so what? The question is: is the whole trip based on a real premise? Was Mohammed the visionary he claimed to be? I say that idea's absurd. You know how it goes... it could just as easily have been the guy-in-a-cave over in that other valley. What was his name? Brian?
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Date: Wed, Jul 08, 1998 at 18:24:24 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Becky
Subject: Renaissance in Islam
Message:
Becky:

RE: However, the traditional Arabs did not like the freedom that his wives had and a father of one of his wives tried to tell him to discipline the woman more. it seems that, over the years, the traditional Arab view of women has overridden the revolutionary aspect of Islam, in which a woman could work, own property, save all the money she earned for herself, educate herself etc. Even a lot of Muslim women reinforce the old stereotype of what a woman's role should be.

You've put your finger on the basic conundrum of Islamic culture, which is the tension between traditional village life and the 'higher' teachings of Islam. Ibn Kaldun [sp?], the Islamic Philosopher, held that the culture of the village was necessary to provide leadership during times of crisis and war, while the higher aspirations of Islam and the educated elites of the cities provided learning and advancement. Because of this dynamic Islam has been locked in a perpetual reformation that never reaches fruition. With the victory of Islamic 'high culture' over the traditional villages, and their superstitions, the stage would be set for a Renaissance. Ernest Gellner claims that the perpetual reformation is now over, and the high culture has superseded the traditional culture once and for all. In the west we mistakenly read this as the victory of 'fundamentalism' but in reality and in effect it will turn out to be the opposite, setting the stage for Renaissance and for civil society in the Islamic world. Long winded, but that's the thesis.

-Scott
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Date: Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 15:00:03 (EST)
From: Becky
Email: None
To: Mickey the Pharisee
Subject: Answer to Mickey
Message:
Mickey, I'm glad you've come along. My answer is above. I saw two books about it in a shop, and have been told by other Muslims that Mohammed was mentioned as 'Ahmed', but, like so much of the bible it was extracted.

for example, my mum told me that the bible used to say that Jesus was naughty and used to slide down sunbeams and play tricks on his friends. OK we don't have to take the sunbeams literally, but you get my drift. Anyway this was extracted - apparently, because it made Jesus look too human I guess.
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Date: Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 16:12:45 (EST)
From: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net
To: Becky
Subject: Answer to Mickey
Message:
Hi Becky,
The stories your Mum was referring to are the Infancy Gospels which were never included in the canon which makes up the Hebrew and Christian scriptures also known as the Holy Bible. However, I am not familiar with the sunbeam story. There is one story where some children wouldn't play with little Jesus so he turned them into goats (kids). Another one where he made little birds out of clay and made them alive. My favourite has Jesus and some neighborhood boy playing on a tower when the boy falls to his death. The whole neighborhood comes out and accuses little Jesus of pushing the kid off the tower. Little Jesus raises the kid from the dead so he can say 'I fell off, Jesus didn't push me' and the kid drops dead again! The whole neighborhood apologizes to Jesus and his folks.
I don't think these stories made Jesus more human; he comes off more like the demon seed or something! These weren't included in the canon because they were not part of the greater tradition, and really didn't have much of a message. I think it is reasonable to believe that such stories are not true!
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Date: Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 13:03:13 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Becky
Subject: Pictures?
Message:
Hi Becky,

this is an answer to your request in a previous post.
I have tons of pictures, old ones, recent ones, videos
Would you like some of them? what type?
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Date: Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 15:03:13 (EST)
From: Becky
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Pictures?
Message:
thank you. just one would be fine. I have a friend who is making a documentary and I mentioned M, and she needs just a picture of him. (Just hope I don't get murdered as a result)
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Date: Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 02:30:08 (EST)
From: again with the
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: conversations with Mark *<*
Message:
Thanks for responses to that previous thread.

I got a huge dose of christianity last week courtesy
of a princeton contractor and a jehova witness and a
two hour meeting between the contractor and his preacher and
me. Since it was that way I also tuned into the christian radio.
Christianity Today mag, and the mens breakfast.

I still think the life power is concious, but after the
dose, I guess it's really true that a large chunk of the whole
religion is assumptions and a burden that can warp you.

The amount of assumptions about the nature of the bigger
power is just huge.

There are some nice ethical reccomendations from jesus/yeshua,
but some of his other words were either planted by his enemies
when the books were being written, or they are just, well...

After a while,
I refused to let anyone tell me about any quote from the old
testament or any paul or anything that wasn't supposidly
directly quoteing jesus/yeshua. They really had a hard time
with that one. They hold everyones words equally.

Mark, you mentioned the point about different perspectives as
a reason for exploreing the different books, ok, but I am
still stuck with the seemingly correct idea that no one here is
successfully bypassing human nature and attaining
anything like the advertised goods.

I read an interview with the guy bhagwan das that ram dass
(or rammed ass- as his brother calls him) was getting his
insights and inspiration from when he wrote be here now.
In fact, it was bhagwan das that kept saying to ram ass
that line -be here now-.
In the interview, the guy was in the exact same state
as anyone else, with his own philosophy of course, but
with all his practices and acclaim, he didnt get anywhere real.
He is still completely bound by the design.

And it just seems that there is plenty of evidence that
there is a concious power that is a factor and has
some options for action and isn't just stuck with
our wandering impulsive actions and has an ability to alter
our course. The religious types claim that the power is
this way and that way and they make LOTS of claims about
it's nature. I am now sure that they are wildly guessing
and are engageing in wishful thinking lots of times, but, to
dismiss the concious power as a 'energy' and/or something
that we are supposed to be here to be one with is equally
as much wishful thinking and as much confusion as any
other religious excess.

I think Jim could even give a nod in this direction if I have
managed to say it well enough. I probably muddled it up some.

and Scott? He made an interesting point about the wide range.

Yeshua made some very good points about the nature of the
design of the larger power. Kind of sets a good stage for
viewing the power. However, Other things he says are
...well, it would be nice to just assume that they were
added by later scribes, it would be nice to attribute them
to someone else because they are ...well, incorrect?

So what is left anyway? the power is concious? graft on a few
well chosen ethical stances? add a well picked attitude?
feel yourself? break into an interpretive dance?
say heidy-ho to the power since it exists parallel?
try to feel love by yourself and share it with whomever?
don't sweat the responses?

any comments are welcomed so feel free.
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Date: Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 11:06:57 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: again with the
Subject: *<* is the conscious power!
Message:
And it just seems that there is plenty of evidence that
there is a concious power that is a factor and has
some options for action and isn't just stuck with
our wandering impulsive actions and has an ability to alter
our course.


Yes, Bill, it's called your mind and it's seated in your brain. That's it. You want consciousness, go to a brain. You want mushrooms? Out in the field. You want a pepsi? In the fridge. You want blood? It's in your circulatory system. And you want consciousness? Yeah -- brain. That's it. You got any evidence beyond that, let me know. (There isn't any. Read The Blind Watchmaker.)
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Date: Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 12:05:01 (EST)
From: bb
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: *<* grope grope
Message:
Jim, would you move that post from KK up to the top?
It warrents some exposure.

There a few angles I can point to as evidence.

By our very nature, the things we have for options to choose from
when we interact with life around us.
The consequences of those varied choices and the richness of
the emotional spectrum.
Our tendency towards excess and the warning flags that come up
to steer us, the feelings people get during behaviours and
the good to bad range of results that are part of the design.

The design of us and our features. I don't mean the body.

Any power worth anything is not going to just go flatline
after 18 billion years of slow evolution produces a rich
enviroment and a human with all the story potential we have.

WE are prone to so much creativity, well, why should the
power itself be unable to join the fun?

Since we are so vulnerable to produceing the history like we have,
would this be the type of creative environment YOU would just
ignore if you were that creative force?
Certainly our designed nature is what it is, meaning, just look
at the people around and look again how we are. It is pretty
different from the rest of the creatures. They are under the
control of a system. Instinct. dna programming, but we are
different enough that we exceed the dna framework.

I wonder sometimes if I sound arrogant or pompous sometimes
in saying things. I hope not, I am just trying to sort through
the pile of viewpoints and the lingering sting of being a fool
for rawat propells me to try to make sure of anything I
think is the 'right' view. Again, any thoughts are welcomed.

I think my probably annoying staunch edge is again just
a reaction to the burn administred by rawat
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Date: Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 13:49:12 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: bb
Subject: nope nope
Message:
Bill,

You don't sound arrogaant, you just sound ... like Bill Burke.

Listen, all your anthropomorphizing the 'power' would be given a real good shake if you read up a bit on your evolution and evolutionary psychology. I'm serious. I'd like to see how much of this you'd still believe after reading The Blind Watchmaker.

Is that too much trouble?

P.S. I agree KK's post is important. I was planning to flag it somehow.
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Date: Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 11:55:23 (EST)
From: Mark
Email: Apple4256@aol.com
To: again with the
Subject: conversations with Mark *<*
Message:
I'm going to agree with Jim in that the one-location/one answer desire you have for figuring it/working it out, will have to center around you and your own brain/consciousness.

is it one clear entity 'god' you're looking for ? it seems like there's one for every level of thought you arrive at, though your own brain is the decoding device for that.

is it one clear operating principle for personal happiness ?-
well there are certainly excellent technical instrutions on
how to get what you want (I strongly recommend the Abraham Hicks tapes, even to the anti-new agers) including clarity, but these are based on consciousness reprogramming of our brains.

meditate your way to happiness? thru chanting, kriya , knowledge?
all through you. . .

as for other belief systems, I know its really amazing seeing it all go on and on and on. . .
last weekend, I went to a local (Malibu ) ashram run by the widow of John Coltrane. I was told it was very far out.Well suffice to say it was like visiting DLM 72. Devotees met and greeted with the hands in prayer thing. Alice Coltrane showed up in saffron. Everybody did the MahatmaJi thing with her ( bow and scrape) she lit an arti tray, put a Garland around the Guru's picture , said how fortunate they all were that their Lord had manifested in their lives , and that they could get darshan. She did the call and response style of old Jagdeo in his heyday.( speaking loud about god, whispering romantic style about the LIVING LORD . . .
'we must love god within us /so we can see him outside
when we get Darshan. How fortunate we are that he has come in this age to live on this earth with us/ so we can adore him. '

Oh by the way the TRUE LORDS NAME is Sai Baba.

and you know what, to that church full of hungry devotional puppies, he is.And the current of energy and power was there.
close your eyes, and its the palace of peace all over again.
.
I left, drove by the Malibu residence(where hungry premies were hoping to get Darshan from their true LORD) and over to the Pacific Ocean, where ocean devotees where swimming in their devotion.

It is all in the consciousness, that's for sure . . .
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Date: Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 13:44:12 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Mark
Subject: conversations with Mark *<*
Message:
Thanks Mark for your comments and the little spiritual travelogue. Alice Coltrane put out a beautiful mystical album in the early 70s. I used to listen to it in my room, after listening to John Coltrane's 'Om', read the Bhagavid Gita, strap on my guitar and look at myself in the mirror, take off the guitar, read a bit more, call some friends, no one was home, go get a coke and make a cheese sandwich, watch some tv, go back to my room, read some more spiritual shit, masturbate....
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Date: Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 15:28:18 (EST)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: Mark
Subject: Who is John Coltrane?
Message:
What's he famous for?
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Date: Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 15:41:57 (EST)
From: bftb
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: Who is John Coltrane?
Message:
He's dead now.He's known for playing tenor and soprano saxaphone in a most glorious way.Many found him a bit too indulgent but I for one am very happy that there's still so much Coltrane left that I've yet to hear.
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Date: Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 16:49:00 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: bftb
Subject: Who is John Coltrane?
Message:
Yes, he was an incredible musician, but a religious cult has grown up around him. I think it's particularly big in California, and the Bay Area. At least they have booths in the airports here.
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Date: Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 16:54:27 (EST)
From: bftb
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Who is John Coltrane?
Message:
Are you serious JW?All the times I've been in that airport and I've never seen them.Do they think he's god or that he was an avatar or something?

Weird!
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Date: Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 17:01:07 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: bftb
Subject: Who is John Coltrane?
Message:
I've seen them in the internation terminal at SFO and I think I've seen them at the Oakland airport as well. I think he's seen as the incarnation of some divine power, displayed through his music and some kind of philosophy. There is a picture of him on a counter and he women all have veils on their heads and the guys look like DLM rejects. To tell you the truth, because of my own experience, I am so wary of cults that I just sort of view them from a distance and don't get too close.
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Date: Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 19:00:57 (EST)
From: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Who is John Coltrane?
Message:
JW, the Coltrane folks have an actual church in San Francisco, and they hold services and everything. I've seen several articles in the SF Chronicle and the SJ Mercury-News on the group. I've missed their booths at the airport, though!
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Date: Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 19:05:47 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Mickey the Pharisee
Subject: Who is John Coltrane?
Message:
Now that you mention it, I think the Coltrane church is on Geary Boulevard. Right near that other place, what was it called?..........The Peoples' Temple?
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Date: Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 19:09:51 (EST)
From: bftb
Email: None
To: Mickey the Pharisee
Subject: Who is John Coltrane?
Message:
I guess those of us who enjoy his music must be aspirants then?
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Date: Wed, Jul 08, 1998 at 08:14:11 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: bftb
Subject: Who is John Coltrane?
Message:
I have to say I heard recently that JC was a heroin addict. Anyone know about that? It's just interesting to me because I had a friend many years ago who was a talented tenor saxophonist/composer 'young Coltrane' & he became a junkie (long-term). He played exactly the same kind of music. Any theories or info?
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Date: Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 19:02:38 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Who is John Coltrane?
Message:
Joe:

Listen, of course there's a cult around John Coltrane. It's California for heaven sake. They've got a cult around Barney Fife.

-Scott
I know, who is Barney Fife. Andy Griffith's deputy.
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Date: Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 00:22:26 (EST)
From: david f.
Email: dkfreed@whidbey.com
To: Scott T.
Subject: Who is John Coltrane?
Message:
The cult aside, one of the things that Coltrane was known for was his long solos, sometimes taking up a whole side of an album (sort of dates me, doesn't it?). I remember, however, reading an interview with him right before he died, where he sort of admitted that he'd been self-indulgent with the solo thing, and said something like, 'why take 30 minutes to say something, when you can say it in 5.'

It would have been interesting to hear his musical changes if he had lived.

And by the way, as one born and raised in SF (now ex), I resent the digs about California and cults -- they do not have a Barney Fife cult. So there!

best wishes, david f.
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Date: Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 07:39:49 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: david f.
Subject: California
Message:
Hi david f.,
I knew someone would get on Scott's case about that dig at California. Good for you. So far, Scott, who is from Eastern Washington, has trashed the East Coast (I was born and raised in DC), Iowa, and California on the forum! Come on, Scott, you better watch it or you will end up living in North Dakota!
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Date: Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 21:20:42 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Down home in California
Message:
Katie:

I may have grown up in Eastern Washington, but I was born in beautiful downtown Burbank (St. Joseph's). So, I am legitimately a 'native' Californian. As for California being a little flakey, well that's not really controversial is it? I mean, a cult that worships John Coltrane as an avatar? Come on! Not going to happen in New Jersey is it?

-Scott
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Date: Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 23:23:49 (EST)
From: david f.
Email: dkfreed@whidbey.com
To: Scott T.
Subject: Down home in California
Message:
Well Scott, the truth comes out -- born in southern California hey? There is some damage that even living in E. WA can't erase. Besides, they have 'cults' east of the Cascades, only they call them 'militias' or something like that. Is this where you still live?

best wishes, david.
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Date: Wed, Jul 08, 1998 at 21:17:41 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: david f.
Subject: Down home in California
Message:
David:

No, I live in the DC suburbs of Northern Virginia. (Remember the Army of Northern Virginia under Lee?) This is Katie's hometown. She's a southern Belle.

-Scott
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Date: Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 16:12:13 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: david f.
Subject: Who is John Coltrane?
Message:
Dear David and all,
And here I am just getting caught up some and I thought Barney was a dinasour and I don't even have little kids! Mass Media 1 Robyn 0!
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 23:28:52 (EST)
From: david f.
Email: dkfreed@whidbey.com
To: Robyn
Subject: Barney who?
Message:
Robyn, don't you mean Barney Rubble, Fred's sidekick.

Mass Media 2, David 0.
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Date: Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 23:50:41 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: david f.
Subject: Barney who?
Message:
Dear David,
Barney the big purple dinasour, no small children in your life, eh? I heard about him on the news actually but when my nephew was small he loved Barney. He is VERY annoying to me and, I think, most adults!
Hey David, I am on my new home computer! I don't know if you realized I only had computers at my jobs. I am enjoying this tonight, typing, petting the animals, making dinner, etc. I was supposed to go to job 2 tonight but tomorrow is another day.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Wed, Jul 08, 1998 at 08:53:40 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: to Robyn
Message:
Hey Robyn, congrats on getting a computer at home. Sometimes I feel like all I need now is a giant screen saver in my window of the galaxy & I will know I have taken the quantum leap into the C21.
Anyway, it's a lot more convenient to be able to play at home instead of having to get dumb jobs just to use the computers, isn't it? That's how I feel anyway - it's become my tool rather than something I just do at work.
Also, good luck with getting some programming work, especially if it's good $$$ & you like that kind of work. Let us know how it goes.
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Date: Wed, Jul 08, 1998 at 12:12:47 (EST)
From: Robin
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Judex
Subject: to Robyn
Message:
Dear Judex,
Now I will email you, maybe not till the weekend as I work the next 2 days and nights.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 01:15:16 (EST)
From: ANOTHER
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: Thank you
Message:
I want to ask you to remember that you are, whole!

I don't think one should ever punish ones self for deeds in the past, that is a real waste of the present.

The sun rises anew every morning and literally, begins a new cycle of life for all things, without that light we would perish.

You are singular, blessed with opportunity and living in free society.

Don't feel that you owe the past an explanation, You Do Not!

As for me, I do not work for Elan Vital, Have never been in the inner loop, Have always been living in 'The World', (Never In an Ashram) and still wake up in the morning early enough to practice no matter where or what I have to do that day.

I am not, trying to double cross you into 'comming back'. Every person I know who has this gift arrives at their purpose in it on their own steam and on their own terms.

I know some will feel this is a cliche ridden homily but those are the things which survive the writings of civilizations.

So they can't be all bad.

The great thing about true self is that we can leave and we can return because that door is always open within you and no one, not me, or Jim, or Mr. Rawat controls that access.

Everthing is possible.

Including living in the world as an individual.

Knowledge has never been a condition required to breathe and live.

And it never will be.

Thank you for you attention.

Good Luck,

Another
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Date: Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 02:58:43 (EST)
From: the other one
Email: None
To: ANOTHER
Subject: spank you
Message:
At the knowledge review in atlantic city rawat will be
telling all to imagine that HE is pushing thier breathe
in and out in a swinging motion. I guess you visualize this
in your morning time?

HIS distortion of his real state and his presenting it to others
to believe is something you are not addressing.
There are some severe consequenses that result from that
misrepresentation.

Your opinion?
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Date: Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 06:31:20 (EST)
From: John Hammond-Smyth
Email: padded.cell@asylum.com
To: the other one
Subject: spank you harder!
Message:
Every beat of my heart, every move of each muscle and each breath I take is by the grace of our divine Lord, Haharaji. Before I met him I was dead; unable to breath for myself and unable to move a muscle. My heart didn't beat, my lungs didn't breathe and my body was like an inert form of emptiness.

Now, by Haharaji's grace I can stand up and walk. I remember his divine breath for 15 minutes each day (not a second more) and always get to see the video event ON TIME and am never late. Truly I am a true devotee of the living master.
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Date: Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 08:38:30 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: John Hammond-Smyth
Subject: spank you harder!
Message:
When I go into a video late (if the carpark was full of those worldly types doing their shopping - those lost souls who take up all the space that should be unattached) - I never push the door really hard so it rattles, and jingle my keys or put anything crunchy into my mouth. I would turn off my mobile phone as well, except I am expecting a call from Him...One Day...One....Day..IT WILL RING! And then I will never wash my ears again.
Dearly Beloved Servant of the Infinte Grace, always waiting, waiting....
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Date: Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 13:16:23 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Judex
Subject: spank you harder!
Message:
Judex:

You're just too much fun. Shame on you! Both ears?

-Scott
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Date: Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 12:20:56 (EST)
From: Mark
Email: Apple 42562aol.com
To: ANOTHER
Subject: Thank you
Message:
YES it is tremendously important to understand the way Maharaji has inveigled himself into a dominant role in the lives of meditators
NOBODY has ever slammed Meditation on this site! Ever!
Its the total Nixonian Manipulation he has pulled off, that this
Site , a la the Washington Post profers to the public at large,

It says to premies aspirants and non-premies alike LOOK OUT
this is not just some sweet unassailable meditation techniques
thing. This is a crafty dishonestly presented soul sucking operation that now starts to Cry Wolf, and say he is surrounded by enemies and ' I am not a Crook' because people have brought up countless indefensible activities postures and philosophies on the internet . I'd call that a free( if perhaps unforgiving) press.

and you know what, this Mister Rawat deserves it.
so if you've just gotten the techniques, never tripped out, or thought M was a superior power or superior to you, that's great. But if there's some part of you that's hooked-be honest to your self now- stick around. because our nature and destiny is much more wonderful than to be a lifelong( 'you know, the student master thing is lifelong') pawn in his sordid little game.
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Date: Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 19:26:09 (EST)
From: Another
Email: None
To: T-O-O, JHS, Mark
Subject: What Technique's?
Message:
I Learned, a long time ago it's technique schmeknique.

I Learned, a long time ago you can find these four simple things in books, learn them from ex premies and even on the internet. Or should we say innernet?

We could call this the outernet website because we ought to 'OUTER' that little pudgenick in the Gulfstream.

Got news for you kids (No offense to Jim because he does not, go for this crap even though he is still a kid).

The techniques are a bridge and thats all.

My personal opinion is that most (NOT ALL) of the people who are attending events are sincere but they don't have any more consciousness about 'GRACE' then you do.(NO offense to those here who have cognizance of this)

That said, If some on this site know of Grace, you can add your comments if you wish.

The 'Breath within the Breath' is not an imagined state of mind .

It is not a type of repetitive self hypnosis.

It is not a self generated euphoric state of spirit.

It is not a feeling perpetuated by noble thoughts or subservience to some ideal or person.

It is not imagined nor can one attain it's presence through thought.

It is not a thing which can be described explicitly but more words and war have been generated over it then anything on earth.

It is not the 'Sound' of ones breathing being followed or listened to by the intellect.

It is tangible to the soul and once it has visited a heart, there will be no going back.

It is immortal.

It is beyond attenuation by the intellect although without an intellect it cannot be approached.

It hovers close to every being and will rest inside of the heart only if the intellect becomes still enough.

It is common because it sustains our breathing and our lives but, too few men and women have capacity to allow this most perfect comfort to prevail.

It is a bloom of magnificence which upwells during our breathing totally aside from the physcial breath.

It is so remarkable and pure, one's sensibilities become prioritized towards the next breath to encounter this blessing.

It is more pure then imagination can ever describe

From within, it's veil it cannot be countered by thought.

It is supremely addicting and has no equal in time or space.

It comes easily to those who are sincere.

It cannot be fooled or cajoled.

It resides only on the terms infinity allows for each individual.

It enrages the skeptic.

It pleases only the self.

It is the presence of God within.

So, would you like to hear how Nectar tastes ?

Believe me, Mischler was a miles from the target when he dropped his version of the peace bomb trying to describe Ambrosia to the Boulder radio listeners. Yes sir, missed that one by about one whole lifetime. (That is a joke Jim, OK , no one has proved reincarnation exists)

Like I stated above, amoung the initiates, my personal assesment is that too few actually get to this state.

I AM NOT SAYING that I am some yogi.

What I am saying is, IF one were to experience the infinite grace of the Holy Breath, THEN and only THEN, would you be able to relate to exactly what kept those early Christians so enraptured while they were being fed to the lions.

I like the addage of one way past Avatar who supposedly said 'As I am so you shall be'.(Damned those ancient texts anyway, there so, well, ancient!)

Perhaps, this is why Charanand can't seem to wipe that grin off his face, and mind you this is only my personal opinion but, there ain't nothing else I have tried (Ingested, Believed, Smoked, Loved, or Shared bodily fluids with) which can hold a candle to this 'Technique'

That my friends is why some will never learn to leave Him. Where would they go?

You need to have some empathy for we the few who's luck it has been to actually find this pure Grace over time.

The rest of the camp followers are yours for the taking. Shit Jim, if you siphon off enough of them, maybe I can get better seats.(You remember the religion of the seat don't you?)

I wish you all good luck in your adventure through life but, there are some premies, who whether you guys like it or not, are experiencing immortallity in this lifetime.

I wish I could change that or say something which would have you understand all of this but Grace is fickle and she be callin the shots.

Why it has decided to lite in me is a mystery. I AM NOT a stirling example of all that is right with our species believe me.

Well, I did ask for it some time ago. Hmmm, I guess I should be careful what I wish for huh?

Regards and I hope Gail reads this thread.

Another

You don't really want me to do the ones I skipped now, do you?

Regards,

Another
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Date: Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 20:22:31 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Another
Subject: A rainbow in crooked space
Message:
Another :

That was truly baroque. Very few wars, however, have been fought over the nature of the 'breath within breath,' though I will check Will and Ariel Durant just to verify. That hyperbole suggests you might be running at the edge? As the population of devotees dwindles down to that 'precious few' I assume you are willing to shoulder a proportionately larger role in supporting the ostentatious lifestyle of your indispensable Guru? Seems fair to me.

-Scott
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Date: Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 20:43:35 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Another
Subject: Poker
Message:
The 'Breath within the Breath' is not an imagined state of mind .

But yes it is. That's exactly what it is. Another, you anticipate all sorts of mundane explanations for your 'experience' but listing them does not dismiss them. How do you really know 'it is not a type of repetitive self hypnosis... or
self generated euphoric state of spirit... or feeling perpetuated by noble thoughts or subservience to some ideal or person
'?

We could argue about this forever. 'No it isn't', 'yes it is'.

So here's how I look at it. I decided a long time ago that this whole spiritual test of Maharaji, the kind he likes to push, is too slippery. There are no standards, no objective criteria, certainly no way of sifting through our own mindsets. Before I received k I believed, based on the satsang I'd heard from Maharaji, his family, mahatmas and other premies, that I'd get incontrovertible proof that he was legit right in the k session. Well I DID have a 'powerful' experience. It sure wasn't as determinative as I'd expected but I fudged things a bit and accepted the experience as 'proof'. K was real, M was real, yes, I'd 'seen' God (well, hadn't I?).

Anyway, years later I started doubting the whole thing. First m, then both m and k. But I realized then that resolving the matter in terms of k would be next to impossible. There could be so many explanations for the various experiences I had, big and small, and who's to say I wouldn't have different ones if I'd only stayed at it? And, even if I did, so what?

So here's what I decided. I decided that, although I can't figure out m's legitimacy that well from the k end (this was before I'd read any evolutionary psychology by the way), I can learn more about the man himself. I decided that, despite the old Indian saw about the guru, drunk, with his arms around two women, stumbling down the street to test his follower's steadfast devotion, I wanted to see what was really going on on a worldly level.

Now, thanks to time's progress, information I've gathered from other premies and just my own maturing, I'm completely satsified now that m is NOT what he claimed to be. Well, let me state this clearly:

1) M made certain claims -- about himself, about the 'path' he was leading us on, about his role in the world.

2) Those claims are false.

3) Not only does that disprove m's claims in their own right, it also deprives him of any residual credibility about anything. It means he doesn't know wht he's talking about in general or, worse, that he's a liar. (Or some combination).

Now, it always possible that m's the Lord, everything's his lila, he's going to jump out of the cake at your next birthday party and whatever. It's possible and it would be possible even if you never experienced anything noteworthy meditating. It would be possible even if m called you tonight and confessed that he lied about it all. It would still be possible. (Please see Monty Python's Life of Brian).

But it wouldn't be reasonable to give that possibility any weight. In fact, it would unreasonable and restrictive of the weight that should be placed on another, competing scenario which is, of course, that m's just a fraud.

So that's it for me. m's had more than enough chance to impress me. I watched him for a decade. I'm not impressed.

IF I'm wrong, so be it. But to me I run the same risk making fun of Santa Claus or -- Becky, did you read this? -- Mohammed. Hey, how do we know where Marshall Applewhite really is right now? Was David Koresh on to something? Who's to say Moon isn't the messiah. It's 'possible'..... in the least significant use of the word, sure.

Now, IF it's true that m's a fraud, or if one can at least accept that proposition as a working premise, it then becomes a whole different question,this question of the k 'experience'. Suddenly, different hypotheses, the ones you would dismiss right off the bat, take on a new life.

Here's a story I've told twice here but it hits home for me perfectly. Ironically this happened just down the hill from Maharaji's place in a nice restaurant on Zuma beach. Two friends and I were sitting down, it was early, we were the only patrons. This magician came to our table and took one of my bills, crumpled it up and made it float right in front of us, over our table. He waived his hands all around it. I think, if I recall, he let us do that too. Then, he took two empty water goblets and encircled the floating ball. It was amazing.

Now, I happen to know that there are people in the world who wear tuxedos and call themselves 'magicians'. They're in the sleight-of-hand business, not the guru business (unless you go to India, where they don't wear tuxedos and, like Sai Baba, don't admit they're doing sleight-of-hand). I could wrack my brains forever trying to understand the 'special power' this guy had enabling him to do that trick. But, because I know he's a magician, I KNOW that would be a waste of time. Oh yeah, sure, I forgot, maybe he's really a sorceror masquerading as a magician. And I guess one could say that about every one else in the trade.

No, the only sane way to think about this is to accept the fact that it was NOT supernatural but, instead, just some conjuring trick. Do I knwo how he did it? No. Does that mean I should be 'open' to the prospect that it was a supernatural act? No, not at all. It just means they've developed some pretty good skills in that trade.

Maharaji looks, talks and acts like a fraud. Does that mean we know every last thing about the old Hindu soup he's selling? No. But we can still eliminate a whole bunch of explanations for k being any kind of 'experience' at all, those being all the ones that give Maharaji and credit for anything special.

If you DON'T think like this, but instead just imagine more and more complext justifications for his own obvious shortcomings and confusion, you're falling into the trap of any conspiracy theorist. Watch out.
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Date: Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 10:46:52 (EST)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Another
Subject: Take a look around you...
Message:
Another, or do you think that other peoples experiences and understanding are somehow other than yours. There is no way that you can know of course, so your arrogance is, at least, innocent.

What will you do next, rush off and propagate the wonders of water to the fish population? Sell ice to the eskimos?

Meditation is great but it does not, of itself, provide any answers and nor does it complete your life. Maharaji always knew that, which is why he sold the thing as part of a much bigger package. The state of ecstasy achievable through Breath, or any other technique, is of no practical benefit by itself and has little value as a stand-alone lifestyle.

The practical benefits which Maharaji has obtained from his practice of the meditation can be seen in context with the actions he performs in his daily life. Where is the wisdom in his paranoia regarding 'enemies', where is the compassion in his treatment of premies and family members, where is the detachment in his obsession with luxury and wealth and what on earth happened to his dignity.

By all means indulge yourself in satsang Another, but please don't dress it up as the Gettysburg Address.

regards

Richard
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Date: Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 22:47:57 (EST)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: News about Miami - July 4
Message:
Think about it. MJ doesn't even want the American premies celebrating July 4. Has anyone had any news about this program?

Some folks from here went.
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Date: Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 00:00:02 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: News about Miami - July 4
Message:
Gail:

Think about it. MJ doesn't even want the American premies celebrating July 4. Has anyone had any news about this program?

My guess (it's not really a guess) is that he doesn't have the faintest clue concerning that Declaration, though it ought to be 'self-evident.'

-Scott
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Date: Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 09:32:27 (EST)
From: RT
Email: ommm
To: Gail
Subject: News about beyond
Message:
Well, I rec'd a EV listing of the next 32 programmes - the new ammended schedule. Lots of overseas stops. I'll post it if you are interested ...PS Gail: time for sat-song! see below!

In Joy,
RT
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Date: Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 11:07:52 (EST)
From: CD
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: July 4,1997 - Oakland
Message:
>Think about it. MJ doesn't even want the American premies celebrating July 4.

My girlfriend and I went to Oakland last year over the July 4th weekend to see M speak at a program and for her to talk with an instructor.
Yesterday, she mentioned what a fantastic time we had up there last year. Her best July 4th ever!
There was a super fireworks show with a live band playing the 1812 Overture in Jack London square about a 10 block walk from the program site.
And people say nothing happens in Oakland!

CD
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Date: Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 12:33:36 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: July 4,1997 - Oakland
Message:
Chris:

Her best July 4th ever!
There was a super fireworks show with a live band playing the 1812 Overture in Jack London square about a 10 block walk from the program site.
And people say nothing happens in Oakland!


So, let me get this straight. You're saying that your girlfriend had a great time because of the Independence Day celebration put on by the city of Oakland, and not because she attended a festival? No problem, but why would you say this?

-Scott
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Date: Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 13:01:07 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: July 4,1997 - Oakland
Message:
I'm not too good at figuring out CD but I do recall that when I trusted and believed in all the gooroo stuff I'd always feel like whatever I did AFTER the show was somehow more magical and fun than it would have been otherwise. Even going to an awful Karioki bar in Santa Monica seemed so special. Or a walk on the Queen Mary deck in LB. I had this sense of something special happening, I wasn't just one of those lost tourists. Yeah right!! Of course, the reality was, I was actually being double whammied, being in a stupid place like on the Queen Mary AND being taken by the LOTU.
I had one of my best fourth of July's this weekend. We drove a ways to this small town where some friends live. They had a barbecue on the town common and all the people came out with their kids. The fireworks were unprofessional and not at all spectacular but the sense of being part of humanity was so strong. I felt so good. I'll take that kind of experience any day.
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Date: Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 13:38:56 (EST)
From: x
Email: none yet
To: Selena
Subject: relief after programs
Message:
Selena,
Its funny what you said about doing things 'after programs'. I experienced that so many times in the past, and saw it in my parents and their comrades. The dessert at the local coffee shop, after the program was always so relaxing, after the droning, confusing monologue everyone had just survived. Of course no premie would ever admit it, but they all know what I mean. I'm sure no one is more relieved after a grueling program than Rawatt himself. He can barely keep his eyes from his watch, as he concocts his tepid brew of rehash. What a relief it was when the boring BS finally wound down, and we were finally all out in the parking lot, to go back to our little 'communities'. When I think of all the monotony I've endured, in the past, so that my mother could get a fix of the guru, I feel angry at the little fraud, although it certainly takes two to tango. C'est la vie.
bye now x
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Date: Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 14:46:54 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: x
Subject: relief after programs
Message:
Hi x
I just have to tell you I love your writing style. It reminds me of Rick's.
I am glad there are people in 'this world' who are not afraid to express anger. Yes it takes two to tango but I don't see how that applies to defenseless children, so don't be too hard on yourself.
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Date: Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 16:14:35 (EST)
From: x
Email: None
To: Selena
Subject: relief after programs
Message:
Selena,
Thank you very much. I haven't received a compliment lately, so I appreciate your kindness. I know I sound kind of angry and bitter, sometimes, and I hate to feed premie stereotypes about people 'in their minds' etc., but I just hate feeling stifled by worrying what people think. I guess you can say I like to call a spade a spade. I think shame and self doubt and worrying about the Jones's etc. keet a lot of people down. Incidently, my comment about it taking two to tango, was meant for my mother, not me. On my own I dont think I would have actually done the guru trip, but who knows. I wouldn't think anyone would, but obviously they do.

fondly x
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Date: Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 16:54:41 (EST)
From: g's mom
Email: None
To: x
Subject: compliments galore
Message:
I too very much enjoy your posts. Very witty. And I find your perspective so interesting as you were sort of there as a hostage. I must say I recall those post program times somewhat fondly.
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Date: Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 19:14:46 (EST)
From: bb
Email: None
To: g's mom
Subject: compliments galore
Message:
Count me in on that compliment to X.
I agree g-mom. X made me laugh with some of that post.
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Date: Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 20:42:25 (EST)
From: x
Email: None
To: bb& g's ma
Subject: compliments galore
Message:
Oh stop, really, I mean it, I mean enough is enough. Please no more. You're making me blush.
thanks, x
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Date: Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 02:26:05 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: x
Subject: hitting close to home, x
Message:
You remind me of someone in my family. Someone who never had any clothes. Did you spend your formative years in dingy underwear, x? I sure hope not.
VP
enjoying x's posts 1998
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Date: Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 07:48:00 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: x
Subject: I hated festivals
Message:
Hi x -
I'm gonna say it too - I like your posts a lot. I am glad you are on the forum. OK, the compliments are over! I wanted to comment on your post as well.

I always disliked programs (festivals). Maybe I am one of the only people on the forum who felt this way. I think I only enjoyed one in the five years that I was a premie (Providence 1976), and I went to a LOT of them because I lived on the East Coast. I felt like I HAD to go to be a devoted premie. I never experienced that festival high, and always felt left out and guilty because I wasn't blissed out like everyone else! My favorite part was the trip home.

You're right about M's satsang being long and boring too. People always say on here that the premies never really LISTEN to M, and I think it's true. I've been watching some M videos lately, and I have a really hard time actually listening to what M is saying. His voice just makes me drop back into that old mode of sort of meditating and figuring I was absorbing it through my pores or something (I has forgotten that I did this as a premie!) Making myself really listen to the words is grueling, and that's why VP is reviewing the videos, not me!

Take care, x,
Katie
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Date: Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 09:38:08 (EST)
From: John
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: I hated festivals
Message:
Katie,

For me a real good indication of how much I enjoyed those 'festivals' is that I have no interest in going back to another one. Also, there are many friends I would love to see again that I have lost touch with, and yet I have NO desire to see M again.
And isn't it interesting, that I have had a few teachers in my life who I would love to see again, just to have the opportunity to thank them for what they gave to me. Yet, I have no desire to thank M for anything.

John

-stopped degrading myself before M in '82
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Date: Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 13:43:08 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Confession
Message:
Okay, I am going to make a confession here. Until about 1980, I really liked festivals. Beginning in about 1980 (actually beginning Hans Jayanti in the Kissimee swamp in 1979), I was really bored by them, they kind of made me nauseous, and I went more out of obligation than anything else.

I agree that most premies, including me, didn't really listen to what BM had to say. How could you? He was incoherent much of the time, was highly repetitive, had an irritating, squeaky voice, (which got higher when he started screaming), and there was almost zero content in what he said. So, I agree, most of us learned to switch off our brains and just get through it. That's why most premies can't recall much of anything he says, and if they do, it's some joke or something. [By the way, did you ever try to READ his satsangs? God, after a paragraph it was impossible.]

I also had to suspend the fact that I thought Guru Maharaj Ji looked really ridiculous at festivals, especially when he was really obese and crammed that crown over his chubby face. When he danced in that outfit in which he was naked from the waist up, and we saw his large mammary glands shake when he danced, that was even worse. I swallowed my tongue hard and tried to remember holy name.

But there were things at festivals I liked. I REALLY liked singing ARTI to Maharaji. Okay, I admit it. It was a true group high and I liked the sound of arti and when we all sang it and focused on him, I felt a lot. I also really liked liturgical music from the Catholic Church in my youth. I was an organist in church, sang in the choir, etc., so I think it kind of went along with that. A lot of the music sung by that band from DC, (Colors?) I really liked too. I didn't really care for One Foundation and their faux reggae stuff, but some of the other stuff was very nice.

I had exactly ONE nice darshan experience, the rest of the time it was really boring and I blamed myself for not experiencing anything.

The other thing I liked about festivals was seeing my premie friends from all over the country. I had lived in so many different ashrams that I knew a lot of people, and some of them I loved dearly. I always had fun seeing them, hanging out with them, and just being together. Funny, when we were together we almost NEVER talked about BM or knowledge. It was like we got through the festival, and now we could be human again, in the coffee shop or walking on the beach. I guess this is similar to what Richard and Selena were saying.

Sometimes I even tried to sit and listen all day when one initiator after another blathered on, but that was usually impossible, so I did 'service' instead.
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Date: Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 19:29:50 (EST)
From: g's mom
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: you are absolved...
Message:
I have that power you know...

I felt similarly. I looked forward to festivals. I liked seeing people at them that had moved to other places. I liked the service I did at them often. Sometimes I liked the music. I often, as you did, liked Arti. Not proud of that either.

What I can relate to is that it was at festivals I can clearly remember having BIG DOUBTS. I would get really upset with myself and fight this feeling of being 'in my mind' at them. As I have said the fat naked dancing in the Mala was the moment I most recall as when I was on my way out.... but I also recall many times after darshan not feeling bliss but feeling doubt. Like 'he looked bored' 'he doesn't know who I am' ' this is ridiculous' I remember once these thoughts were so strong I almost wanted to cry. I wanted to run and leave. But I that time managed to bury them. Later, after the Mala dance, it was undeniable, he was a fake.

In another post I say I liked Holi's I did. But purely because it was entertaining to me. I always found that seeing Rawat in person was threatening. Once I happened to see him entering the office building in Denver. I remeber the ONLY thing I could think was 'he's SO short'. I tried to be blissed but it was manufactured bliss.

Confess to us anytime.
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Date: Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 19:48:31 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: g's mom
Subject: you are absolved...
Message:
Thanks so much for the absolution. I really feel better now. Your post also made me laugh.

fat naked dancing

Wasn't this a movie title from the 80s?

I always found that seeing Rawat in person was threatening.

Often I did too. Mostly because I was so disappointed at how.....disappointing he was. That was confronting and hence threatening. So, I avoided being around him other than at programs if I could. Isn't that weird? So many others were running after darshan, and I avoided it. I felt I wasn't worthy enough because when I actually saw him, saw him interact with people, I clearly doubted he was anything special at all and I sometimes felt repulsed by him. Not always, but much of the time.
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Date: Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 10:57:43 (EST)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Selena
Subject: Post-Festival euphoria...
Message:
Yeah I know what you mean Selena.

Grabbing a capuchino with your premie pals, hanging out, smoking a Winston (fav premie-puffs for a while) and generally tripping out on the fact that we were in and they were not.

Just like good sex huh! Oh no...Oh my god no.....aaaahhhh!!!!
Yeeeeeeccccchhhhhh!!! You don't think he......no surely not...... ..........................................................................................
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Date: Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 13:21:12 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Post-Festival euphoria...
Message:
Just like good sex huh! Oh no...Oh my god no.....aaaahhhh!!!!
Yeeeeeeccccchhhhhh!!! You don't think he......no surely not......


I think anything is possible in that crazy world. I told the forum once about this one, of many, creepy things that happened to me at my last gooroodo.
At night as the hall was emptying after M did his thing (whatever it is)
I asked the woman next to me is she was ready to go and she said no, she was just going to 'sit and stare at the chair for a while'

You had to be there but the WAY she said it got under my skin and almost made me physically ill. really, and the sexual comparison is not far off at all. That's what bothered me so much, ick!
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Date: Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 21:52:35 (EST)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Everyone
Subject: Site Stuff
Message:
I've gone back to work on the site pages. The first changes are in the format of the page links (graphic now). I'll make the same sort of changes to the Forum pages after I get the scripts revised.

Got caught up on the backlog of White Pages entries that had been accumulating, so if you sent an entry and don't see it let me know.

Replaced the What's New page. Also added a new page (Ads & Letters) so that the Letters to the Site, Letters to Maharaji, Feedback, and another new page (Reader's Ads). The latter page contains the posting from Michelle, who is looking for her birth mother. If you didn't see that post when it appeared in the Forum, please read it. You might just know her mother, Grace Weldon.

Revised the Site Map page to include the new additions, and also added brief explainations of what each page contains.

I'll get the Satpal stuff online when I get the revised history pages online. I need something to link them too. Also have some pictures that were sent and they'll link out of the Nuts & Bolts page soon.
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Date: Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 07:51:06 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Brian
Subject: Site Stuff
Message:
Dear Brian,
Thank you for all your work, hope you enjoyed it, the break from work I mean.
Robyn
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Date: Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 19:19:24 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Annie DiFranco
Message:
Robyn, just wanted to let you know that I saw Annie DiFranco on the 4th of July. It was a terrific concert, and there were a lot more middle-aged types there than I thought there would be. She is a major musical force in Silicon Valley, I am told.

Also, my thanks to Brian as well, for all his fine work.
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Date: Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 10:10:35 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: JW
Subject: Annie DiFranco
Message:
Dear JW,
I am so jealous!!! She is actually playing about 1.5 hours from here this summer but I can't go with working so much. I think her last CD, Plastic Castles was more for a general audience. I like it but not near as much as her other stuff. Glad you had a good time though.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Wed, Jul 08, 1998 at 13:12:35 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Annie DiFranco
Message:
She did a lot of stuff off the newer album, but older stuff too. I guess I like Plastic Castles because it's more melodic to me. At her show, she looked just like I thought she would: Lavender hair, a short, leather dress, big black boots with army-green socks.:)
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Date: Wed, Jul 08, 1998 at 18:08:32 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: JW
Subject: Annie DiFranco
Message:
Dear Joe,
I was just listening to Plastic Castles again last night and liked it, I guess it just had to grow on me. :)
But I do like her angry stuff and her danceable(sp) stuff.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 13:03:59 (EST)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Everyone
Subject: Mother found
Message:
I've been advised that Michelle has located her mother, so no need to respond to her regarding this.
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Date: Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 10:12:39 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Brian
Subject: Mother found
Message:
Dear Biran,
That is so great! I felt bad when I got that email and couldn't be of any help. Now it is just between them, good!
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 15:07:31 (EST)
From: RT
Email: OMM
To: Brian
Subject: Sited
Message:
Dear Brain

Just a note to thank you for your management and care for the
web you weave, it's up, right, and out of site!
Everything is all right....

RT
who listed to fm radio during aspirancy.
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Date: Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 21:19:57 (EST)
From: Gail
Email: freedom@gtn.net
To: Everyone
Subject: Will I ever be free of this?
Message:
Will I ever be free of this stupidity? Some of you have had the good sense to hang up your baragons many moons ago. However, you still post here. Is it purely altruistic or do you still smell the disease?

For example, I was watching this band the other day. The front man was putting on quite a show (display of ego in premie-speak). I felt like I wanted to crawl under the grass.

Actually, it reminded me of MJ. He really brags these days (perfect for all his aviation exams, his children are perfect, everything is perfect, including his dancing). Somehow, premies don't see his blatant display of ego.

When do you stop seeing the world as a premie?
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Date: Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 21:32:02 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: Yes, But Not Completely IMHO
Message:
Gail, I can't speak for you, but for me, I did stop seeing the world as a premie some years ago, and this forum (which has only been around for about a year) has been great because it confirmed it for me.

It has been a great exercise in seeing premies say such stupid stuff that I used to say myself and never could see how off the wall it was. But I don't think it's something that you will ever forget entirely. It's part of who you are, but I think you can put it into perspective.

But it really does get better. It really does. And I found I was so, so much happier than I ever was as a premie. It felt so good to stop fighting with myself and to ignore my true feelings about Maharaji and the cult.

Speaking of the blatant display of ego, someone told me that BM, in a satsang in Australia, bragged about how one of his kids got into an exclusive (read, VERY EXPENSIVE) school. I think he said she beat out some other applicants in an exam or something.

This REALLY bothered me because his kid has been waited on hand and foot with servants, given every possible advantage, including tutors and whatever elsse she could possibily need, and would have to be a moron NOT to succeed.

And how about all those ashram premies, many from working class families who lost their chance to go to college because they turned over all their life, wealth and everything else to BM. And then when the ashrams closed, here were people in their 30s with debts and having to start all over again. Did he ever express even one comment of concern about them? NO. He brags about his daughter living with all her advantages supplied by the hard work of premies, and brags about his piloting skills, gained through his wealthy leisure time and paid for by his devotees. Ego is an understatement.

It reminded me of the time he bragged about his new, red, Ferrari for about 15 minutes to a bunch of ashram premies back in about 1980. I was in the room for that one.
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Date: Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 21:35:16 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: Will I ever be free of this?
Message:
Gail:

To tell the truth, I can't recall ever seeing the world as a premie. On the other hand, show-offs bug the hell out of me.

-Scott
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Date: Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 22:11:26 (EST)
From: TD
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: Will I ever be free of this?
Message:
Gail, it's really amazing you're feeling like this, because that's totally where I'm at at the moment, so even though I'm not in the state to give you advice, I can totally empathise with you!!

Last night, after posting the thread below, I suddenly went into this spiral of guilt about 'my mind' and that I was becoming all the things I used to detest while a premie. You know, 'unconscious chatter' and all that stuff and I was concerned that my post would be another indication of my unconsciousness and so on...

So even though I've started posting here as an ex-premie, I'm still battling through it with a lot of the premie concepts I've acquired over the last 4 years.

I'm sure they will diminish over time as we begin to recognise that they are 'premie' behavioural patterns, but in the meantime they're still going to have their subtle little tentacles in lots of different areas of our lives.

Take care, TD
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Date: Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 00:27:12 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: TD
Subject: The ghost of gratitude.
Message:
Gail and TD:

I was being slightly flippant in my remark above, though I rarely have flashbacks to my premie days. Two things seem to intrude. When something really perverse happens to me it is my immediate response to blame Maharaji. It's like a sort of nervous system thing that ties into my anger. For a long time I had this issue about laying the blame for 'why did this happen to me' stuff on 'God.' I was terrified of the 'cause causeless.' That response was a bit unconvincing with an abstract being, so when Maharaji volunteered for the God position it got a lot easier to put a face on that dope that keeps screwing things up. (You can see why I was a borderline bonzo premie.) Well, the habit has just stuck and when I get angry at coincidences I have to remind myself that no one's to blame. Either that, or I was the one who lost the damn keys. So, as I heal stuff that was a problem before Maharaji I'm losing that deferential auto-response as well as fear of 'the cause causeless, that shall not come.'

I've a similar automatic feeling of gratitude toward Maharaji when I start experiencing meditation. But, I've noticed that as I take more responsibility for my own experience I can actually concentrate better (funny thing). My mind doesn't wander because it's now my mind, and I'm not committed to losing it. I don't have to simultaneously juggle devotion and clarity (which don't seem to mix).

-Scott
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Date: Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 23:28:35 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: Will I ever be free of this?
Message:
Hi Gail,
I began posting here mostly for two reasons - I want to help other people, and I really like the other people that post on here. But I have been surprised at how many of the 'premie-think' issues that people discuss are relevant to my life now (I quit being a premie 21 years ago, at age 21.)

I think the stickiest premie issues are the ones that tie into your own personal issues - you know, the ones that you had BEFORE you were a premie, because of your upbringing or environment, etc. For example, I posted below in a reply to Barney that one of the hardest things for me to overcome after leaving M's organization was thinking that I was 'different' than other people. That's because thinking that I was 'different' (in a negative way) was a problem I had before I was a premie, and, of course, being a premie reinforced this feeling to the nth degree.

I wish both you and TD well. Please remember not to expect too much of yourselves too quickly (another premie-think thing, by the way.) It's only been a very short time for both of you. I think it takes at least a year to go through the worst of it, if you were involved to any extent as all. I am really glad the forum and site are here for all of us.
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Date: Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 05:54:37 (EST)
From: tony
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: Will I ever be free of this?
Message:
I still use my baragon sometimes and loving it.

To me K, is about what i find inside of me, and i feel my journey has been an exceptional one.

Maybe MJ is just enjoying life like we all should be.
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Date: Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 06:34:51 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: tony
Subject: Will I ever be free of this?
Message:
Maybe MJ is just enjoying life like we all should be.

Yes fine sentiment - maybe - though I've got a story for you. Pretty dull but oh well ho hum. BTW Maharaji tells stories from the same source as this one (at least on one occasion)

this guy dies & goes to heaven. He finds himself in the house of his dreams. everything is as he always imagined. he gets hungry, imagines food and bingo, the larder is full. he wants music, instantly there is every kind of music. he gets lonely, knock on the door, there is his soul mate. this goes on for several months. (years? weeks?)

one day he just rushes off to St Peter. 'St Peter I can't stand it any more. I've got everything I ever wanted. But I'm not growing, I'm not changing, it's terrible! I'll go anywhere, please, I'll even go to hell!'

'Where do you think you are?' says St Peter.
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Date: Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 09:47:44 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Judex
Subject: A few metaphysical questions?
Message:
Judex:

I have a number of metaphysical questions concerning this story. Was the Devil disguised as St. Peter? What was St. Peter doing in hell? How did the guy know what St. Peter looks like anyway? Do you have to carry an ID in hell? How about in heaven? How come he didn't notice the sign on the door as he came in? Is this perdition, or rock bottom hell? I really don't think M noticed the sign on the door, but wonder if any of his kids did?

I know a few people who would be falling all over themselves to get in that place. Is there some sort of guarantee that they don't accidentally get sent there instead of Somalia? If not, I need the rethink this whole thing. A friend of mine was designing a self-cleaning house. Is she in league with the forces of darkness? Are those automatic flush toilets and faucet shut offs in airports part of the conspiracy?

-Scott
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Date: Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 10:18:46 (EST)
From: Sir David
Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com
To: Scott T.
Subject: A few metaphysical questions?
Message:
That story that Haharaji told was about a film he saw where the guy kept winning at the roulette wheel. I guess it's been elaborated a bit. Does anyone know what the film was called.
Anyway, why not have it the other way round? Heaven is so fantastic and we're so happy there that we come down here to remind ourself of what it's like to be away from it. Or something to that effect. Who knows? But let's not get too serious. Do they have toilets in Heaven and if so, are they made of burnished gold like Haharaji's. Carol told us the story of the spirit that wanted to use her grandmas toilet. And a friend of mine saw a male ghost in a ladies public toilet in Bournemouth. So do they have a convenience problem up there? Perhaps all the toilet manufacturers have gone to Hell.
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Date: Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 13:47:05 (EST)
From: x
Email: None
To: Sir David
Subject: A few metaphysical questions?
Message:
I saw this story as an apisode of The Twilight Zone, seriously. x
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Date: Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 15:22:11 (EST)
From: John
Email: None
To: x
Subject: Rod Steiger is God
Message:
I LOVED that episode of twilight zone.
But then I used to LOVE listening to M, didn't I?
Hmmmmm...

-never a trekkie, forever a zoner.
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Date: Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 15:27:23 (EST)
From: bftb
Email: None
To: John
Subject: Rod Steiger is God
Message:
John,I'm just curious.Did you mean to say Rod Serling is god,or was Rod Steiger in that particular episode?
Thanks
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Date: Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 16:32:43 (EST)
From: John
Email: None
To: bftb
Subject: Rod Steiger is God
Message:
Rod didn't have to pretend to be God, Rod was God. But he's not God anymore because he died. Hence the expression, God is dead.

I don't think Rod was ever in an actual episode. He just introduced the shows.
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Date: Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 16:50:46 (EST)
From: bftb
Email: None
To: John
Subject: Rod Steiger is God
Message:
Well I'll tell ya...if Rod Serling was able to morph into the actor Rod Steiger and actually look like Rod Steiger when he introduced his shows;then maybe he was god.

Although after seeing Rod Steiger in 'The Pawnbroker',and knowing that he's still alive-I nominate him god.
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Date: Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 16:57:27 (EST)
From: John
Email: None
To: bftb
Subject: My Bad!
Message:
Duh...Rod Serling, Rod Steiger, whatever!

Detail, details...
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Date: Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 01:21:56 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: A few metaphysical questions?
Message:
laughing
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Date: Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 15:36:02 (EST)
From: tony
Email: None
To: Judex
Subject: Hell?
Message:
Your story is very good. So that's what i've been missing all these years praying to St Peter custodian of hell.
You imply it boring to enjoy life?
Why, i think life is to be enjoyed, OK, you have the bad times too but come on nobody wants to stay there too long, learn what you have to and get out.
In the Quran, heaven is discribed well as a place where our every physical desire is for the taking, but it never said anything about St Peter.
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Date: Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 16:08:58 (EST)
From: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net
To: tony
Subject: Hell?
Message:
I've never understood how the fires of Hell were supposed to affect one since, when we are dead, we no longer have a body to be burned. This also applies to the concept of heaven being a place of physical gratification; if you are no longer in the body, how are you going to even have any physical desires to be gratified?
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Date: Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 18:43:49 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Mickey the Pharisee
Subject: Hell?
Message:
Mickey:

In my Catholic School days, I was taught that at the end of the world, we would be re-united with our bodies (I assume REFURBISHED bodies) and live for eternity in heaven or hell WITH body and soul re-united. I suppose the reunification is for the purpose of feeling pain if one is in hell, or pleasure if one is in heaven. In the meantime, we were taught, the MAJOR pain of hell for the loss of or the lack of, god, and the joy of heaven was the presence of, god. But compared to eternity, the time between death and the end of the world was so short, that it hardly mattered. I won't go into the various explanations of 'eternity.' If you read 'Angelas Ashes' he mentions some of the same ones I was taught.

I kid you not, this was Catholic dogma in the 60s.
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Date: Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 18:56:47 (EST)
From: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net
To: JW
Subject: Hell?
Message:
JW, I am familiar with the idea that the dead will have new bodies, and there is a reference, yet not very clear, to such a situation in the pastoral epistles, but it really isn't very biblical. I have also heard that hell is being seperated from God while heaven is being united by God, but we really won't know until we are dead, will we? There is also a teaching, which one can infer from some biblical texts, that one sleeps until the Final Judgement. Unless we can channel Roy Rogers, we can't really know. Of course, we do have some folks on this site who have had NDE's, so maybe the can tell us if there were any actual physical sensations involved.
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Date: Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 19:51:12 (EST)
From: Sir David
Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com
To: Mickey the Pharisee
Subject: Sensations beyond
Message:
In my NDE I was sitting and was with other people who definitely had physical forms. They looked as real as you or I and there was nothing spooky about them.

Other people I've known of who have had NDEs have talked about embracing loved ones. Now their arms didn't pass through them like some ghost. It is my understanding that it's simply life on a different wavelength or at a different vibration. From the physical universe we could term it as etheric and yet when we are there and have become a part of it, it's as real as this physical world.

Could a ghost interact on this plane as we do? Of course not. Neither can we interact on the plane beyond while we are in this particular plane. It would appear from what people have said that there is an abundence of sensations hereafter. All far more acute and real than we'd have anticipated.
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Date: Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 22:40:34 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Sir David
Subject: You're kidding, right?
Message:
Other people I've known of who have had NDEs have talked about embracing loved ones. Now their arms didn't pass through them like some ghost. It is my understanding that it's simply life on a different wavelength or at a different vibration. From the physical universe we could term it as etheric and yet when we are there and have become a part of it, it's as real as this physical world.

Could a ghost interact on this plane as we do? Of course not. Neither can we interact on the plane beyond while we are in this particular plane. It would appear from what people have said that there is an abundence of sensations hereafter. All far more acute and real than we'd have anticipated.


This is a joke, right David? Tell me it's a joke. Simply life on a different wavelength or vibration. Oh, I see. I thought it was something complicated. But I guess it's really no big deal.

And saying, 'It would appear from what people have said that there is an abundence of sensations hereafter. All far more acute and real than we'd have anticipated sure takes the guesswork out of life, doesn't it?

No, this HAS to be a joke.
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Date: Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 20:59:14 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Mickey the Pharisee
Subject: FDEs
Message:
Mickey:

I think to really determine whether physical sensations continue after death you would have to ask someone with an FDE (far death experience). I definitely experienced physical sensations in on OBE, but am not sure they would have been sustained had I remained 'out.' That is, I was still connected to my body so the experience could have been via a conduit of some sort. I'll tell you, however, that it was a great deal more 'intense' than being in a body, so have my doubts that sensation becomes numb or anything. Anyway, ask those FDE guys.

-Scott
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Date: Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 21:44:17 (EST)
From: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net
To: Scott T.
Subject: FDEs
Message:
Hi Scott,
The only problem is how do I get in touch with these FDE guys?
Maybe we can channel a few here on the site.
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Date: Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 16:31:25 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: tony
Subject: Hell?
Message:
In the Quran, heaven is discribed well as a place where our every physical desire is for the taking, but it never said anything about St Peter.

Pay attention. St. Peter was Jesus' apostle. He's not someone Muslims pay much heed.

-Scott
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Date: Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 18:39:47 (EST)
From: Tony
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Hell?
Message:
Is the Christain heaven different from the Muslim one?

If the answer is NO!

Then i'll find St Peter there.
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Date: Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 01:32:01 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: tony
Subject: Hell?
Message:
no I don't think life is boring. I just wonder what that statement really means - enjoy your life? Maybe I am being bloody minded, because I did get a lot out of that for a while. I had forgotten that life is meant to be enjoyed - ie (to me) it meant that life doesn't have to be painful, difficult, a vale of tears etc -

the question I have now though is, what does that mean - does it mean the same thing or different things to everyone
- in which case it's generic: sort of like feeding the masses with one motto - my god - it's a miracle!
- most particlarly though, what does Maharaji mean by that statement. He says enjoy life AND practice everyday, do service, keep listening, spread the word...the truth is inside, while you are alive you have a window to immortality...that is your number one priority - in fact every other thing he says doesnt descrbe life as I know it which is meant to be enjoyed. He is talking about enjoying getting a glimpse of infinity isn't he? how does that tie in with having a cup of tea & a tim tam? you tell me?
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Date: Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 18:35:38 (EST)
From: Tony
Email: None
To: Judex
Subject: Enjoy you life.
Message:
I think it means different things to everyone, although saints and mystics have argued for centuries on the similarity of their experiences of the higher one, i'm not talking of M here, they forget the fundamentals of being alive.

It really is so easy to forget to enjoy yourself no matter what your circumstances.

We, that is you and i share the same thing, we're alive but apart from that our experiences, emotions and reactions to our surroundings are different, why, because we both exist in the same timestream, i.e the Present. Therefore your enjoyment and experience of god will be different from mine unless we're in a mass delusional rapture.

You seem to think M is talking about some glimps of an infinite Samadhi.

I think he means that within you is a glimps of something special, why not have that experience now and see what you really are.

What i understand from him is that, i have a life now, therefore i should enjoy it now, because nobody knows what will happen tomorrow, enjoy what you have now, i like that statement.

tim tam? is that an American joke that i seem to be missing?
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Date: Wed, Jul 08, 1998 at 02:12:24 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: Tony
Subject: Enjoy you life.
Message:
enjoy what you have now, i like that statement.

Yes but it is a totally meaningless statement IMO. Even if you're fucking miserable, ENJOY IT! You had better, or else you're missing out - the only value worth having is ENJOYMENT which is passive & hard to define: kind of like watching a movie; just sit back & let it happen to you. I don't agree - I don't want to live like that. I don't want anyone telling me how to live & defining MY joy, confusion, delight, dilemnas with that smarmy concept 'enjoyment'. But if I want to enjoy it I will!

Tim Tams are very chocolate biscuits. There is an ad for them where a young guy rubs an old vase & a genie comes out. He says, I want to be rich, cool & irresistible. So this smart woman genie (geni-us?) turns him into a packet of tim tams & puts them in the fridge. His girlfriend comes in 'Tim...Tim?' opens the fridge 'Oh, cool' and eats one, with great relish.
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Date: Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 20:47:28 (EST)
From: You Don't Want to Know
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Trailer Trash
Message:
It was a joke. I have lived in trailers so I think it's funny.
(No disrespect intended)

I have also lived on the street.

We take our life too seriously around here, sometimes.

It's a poke at the discordant element nibbling at the edges of this religious backlashed site.

It appears none will prevail as only pro or con, given the intent which is clearly stated at the top of this page.

So all I was saying is expect those detracted to become the counter insurgents.

It's all there in 'The War of the Flea'.

With respect.

YDWTK
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Date: Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 14:19:48 (EST)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: JW-Thread from Inactive
Message:
JW,
In answer to your response to my post about premies being assholes:

Yes, it was a shitty place to be stuck... not in the ashram but whole-hog dedicated. In 1980, I had a series of meetings with a friend who was still a premie but who didn't tow the party-line. She was probably considered a bongo but she had her shit together in many ways. During our meetings she tactfully confronted me about my premie shtick - basically, she told me I was disconnected from myself and pointed out the specific ways I was dodging my feelings and pidgeonholing other people. I had just moved from Miami and wasn't yet 'plugged in' to the L.A. community. Fortunately, it never happened.

My friend spotted the 'tricks of the trade' I'd developed from the premie cult and as I'd respond in our conversations, she'd identify what I was doing... what my mind was doing in the process. I'd adopted the programming as a series of defenses to deal with not having to feel vulnerable or like a failure, and not having to deal with the disappointments or sensitivity that comes from really living life.

It was nearly impossible for me to deny she was right, but it was slow-going. It took a few months for me to get comfortable with the notion I'd been wrong about so many things I'd been so sure of. And it was unsettling to think I'd been so falable and basic, as to have been just escaping from life, when secretly I thought I was such hot shit. Slowly, I admitted to myself that I wasn't such hot shit, and was more like everyone else than I'd wanted to accept.

When I tried on the new 'outfit' of being okay with myself and how I felt, and started reacting to people more honestly (that is, showing it if I didn't like them or what they said), I realized I had mostly been an android for the last four or five years.

I had never been mean to people and my intentions weren't insincere in searching for 'meaning' in knowledge. It was that a big portion of what I was doing, was pretending: Pretending to be calm, pretending to be getting realized, pretending I didn't have doubts, pretending I was superior because I had the wherewithal to recognize the perfect master. I'm sure that trying to really communicate with me was a calamity. I meant well, I honored most of my agreements, and I was nice enough on the surface; but in terms of being a whole person, I was just a wind-up doll.

When the changes started, I looked back at myself and thought, 'What a wanker. What an imbecile. What a putz. I was clueless.'

What was unusual was that despite these changes I wasn't an ex-premie yet. I had dropped the party-line but I still thought BM had the magic goodies, and that practicing knowledge was the key to the kingdom; just that I had to do it differently. So I still went to satsang and sometimes to programs. When I started looking at the party-line premies, from outside in, I saw stacks of variations of what I was doing. Confused, dysfunctional 'kids' who thought they were bitchen. I was pretty repulsed. As you mentioned, David Smith was a good example of how far down the drain a person can go, but when I looked around, they all looked like David Smith... that same blank stare, the same arrogance, the same monster of repressed feelings that could snap out if given the power. Needless to say, I sat in the very back of the Loyola Theater, during satsang in those days.

When people quit smoking, they're often very down on other people who still smoke - much worse than most non-smokers. My malaise of premie-disgust may be a result of being so frustrated with myself for having become an android. Part of quitting the android-schtick was realizing why I had started and realizing I was responsible for joining up. I did it to find real meaning in life and out of sincerity, but also for unadmirable reasons... to take a short cut from life, to cut and run from the real stuff, and to hide from my imperfections. I find the fallout and results of adopting this as a way of life, as ugly. My perceptions about other premies in those days, can well be off. There really isn't any way to quantify that sort of thing with so many people from so long ago. I suppose I'll only ever really know about how I was.
Rick
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Date: Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 15:13:01 (EST)
From: Peter
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: blown away again
Message:
Wow. There is so much power in that level of honesty. I've seen it numerous times on the forum and it's what keeps me coming back. I want to learn to be like that. I'm still ducking some of the hard stuff of real life (there are so many ways to do it, BM is only one of them) and you've helped me to see that that's not what I want to do.
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Date: Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 15:35:02 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Rick
Subject: JW-Thread from Inactive
Message:
Dear Rick,
God that was absoulutely beautiful!! Such a view into what many premies lived and may not have even yet realized. To read your honest examination of your life at that time and to see how you really worked hard to change and be able to respect who you are is an inspiration, big time. I see you in a different light somewhat but not New Age at all! :)
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 16:25:18 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: JW-Thread from Inactive
Message:
Rick,

Thanks for your post. Yeah, I gues you ARE an asshole, aren't you?

No, seriously, thanks for telling us all that. I agree with Peter, there's something strong in honesty on that level. You describe your transition out nicely. I wonder if there isn't some premie out there reading your post and identifying a little 'too' close for comfort.

Part of quitting the android-schtick was realizing why I had started and realizing I was responsible for joining up. I did it to find real meaning in life and out of sincerity, but also for unadmirable reasons... to take a short cut from life, to cut and run from the real stuff, and to hide from my imperfections.

Rick, do you really think it's fair to second guess your motives like that? (I'm talking about the last couple of lines). After all, if you'd taken a lie detector then don't you think you would have passed had you answered that yes, you thought this WAS the 'real stuff'?

Now that's a good question, come to think of it. I wonder whaat would happen if premies took lie detectors TODAY. How many could honestly say they think Maharaji's honest, etc? And what if I'd taken one back then? Hard to say, but I'm pretty sure I would have said 'yes' and passed.
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Date: Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 18:21:03 (EST)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: JW-Thread from Inactive
Message:
Jim,
Sure I would have passed a lie detector test, if asked if maharaji and knowledge were real. See Jim, the whole trick to being an asshole or a putz or a winger is to not know you're being one at the time. Then when you realize you were, you can say, 'But I didn't know. My watch broke. I was at the cleaners. Honest... really. No, you don't understand, I, I,...'

Jim, who better to look back and evaluate my motives but me. I'm not guessing or second-guessing - someone interrupted me and pointed this shit out to me while it was happening. They could see it and I couldn't deny it. Taking stock in yourself is plucking out the stuff you don't necessarily want to look at. But, sheesh, listen to me... who am I to tell you?

But why don't we talk about something we agree on. How about that fat gonif Guru, eh?
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Date: Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 18:18:00 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: JW-Thread from Inactive
Message:
I missed the orginal thread so if I am off that's why (today that's the excuse at least)

Rick that was beautiful. Only thing I can add is, no need to justify your feelings toward premies - if that is what I am seeing in part of your post. We are all different. I have read many people here who think premies in genreal are nice people, or specific ones are or whatever. We have all been through the same thing, yet different. I have some recent hurts and experiences that make me rather disgusted with premies. I believe I am entitiled to feel that way and also discuss it here. If others haven't been burned that way well good! I am glad they haven't but it doesn't me I haven't.
And, you have such a gift for writing and expressing your thoughts and feelings! Don't stop please.
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Date: Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 19:33:29 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Selena
Subject: JW-Thread from Inactive
Message:
Dear Selena,
I missed the orginal thread so if I am off that's why (today that's the excuse at least)

I love it, today's excuse! That is how I feel about always blaming my 2 jobs on my mindlessness, what will I use as an excuse when I am down to .5 jobs! I'll have to think about this. :)

Love,
Robyn
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Date: Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 21:01:10 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: Perceptive, Rick
Message:
'My malaise of premie-disgust may be a result of being so frustrated with myself for having become an android.'

Very perceptive, Rick. I don't think that you are the only one here whose posts reflect that either. I never did the android thing myself, but I want to shake some premies who post here because they remind me of family members who I wanted to shake from time to time. It's a projection thing, I guess.

Great post, BTW. VP
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Date: Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 21:33:58 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: Thanks, Rick
Message:
I can relate to so much of what you said, especially about having to face yourself. I had to do that too. But aren't you REALLY GLAD you did?

Thanks again, Rick. All your insights and honesty is very helpful to lots of people.
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Date: Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 06:14:53 (EST)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: JW-Thread from Inactive
Message:
Dear Rick,

I just want to say thanks for such an honest post, it touched raw nerves in me and, no doubt, in others too.

I had dropped the party-line but I still thought BM had the magic goodies,

This was a particularly painful moment for me too. All the evidence is in, the facts are clear and yet...and yet it is so hard to let go of the one link which might justify it all. I had been so hard on others, so heavy and so cavalier with the hopes and aspirations of people around me who had trusted me.

All this would have been OK, justifiable if the cause was true. I remember thinking about the crusades, about how much death, destruction and suffering was caused by these noble
adherents to the faith and about how their sacrifice was to go through it all and survive. It didn't seem so different to what I was going through. (How noble?..how stupid!).

Towards the end I just slunk off by myself, still clinging to the thought that all I had done was justified by the fact that Maharaji was it. Even though the rot had well and truly set in I could not face it honestly. It has taken many years down the line and the advent of this forum for me to look properly in the mirror and start the re-build.

Thanks for the post Rick, it has done me a power of good.

Regards

Richard
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Date: Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 13:18:37 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Question for PT
Message:
PT,

What do you think about Holocaust deniers (or 'revisionists' or whatever you want to call them)? Are you familiar much with their ... ahem, 'arguments'? That is, do you know HOW they explain themselves? HOW they 'argue' that the Holocaust didn't really happen?

How about flat-earthers? Or people that claim man never landed on the moon? Have you ever read any interviews or tracts put out by these guys?

For an excellent discussion of people who, like yourself, maintain untenable beliefs in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary -- like you -- take a look at Michael Shermer's Why People Believe Weird Things. If you can't see yourself in those pages, I'd be interested hearing why.
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Date: Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 04:16:35 (EST)
From: TD
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: 'In Your Body'
Message:
As a premie a couple of months ago, I was 'in my heart'.
As an ex-premie now, I am 'in my mind'.

I'm seriously considering joining a cult that encourages me to be 'in my body'.

It must have a guru and he/she (although more likely a he 'cause that's the way it seems to be) must teach me to pursue only 100% adrenalin activities (Point Break jargon here!) such as:

bungee-jumping
skydiving
canyoning
heli-skiing
motorcycle racing
air-acrobatics in a Gulfstream (I hear there's one for sale....)

and whatever else takes me to a place where I don't give a toss about my 'heart' or my 'mind'.

Does anybody know of such a cult and has anyone else had a similar desire since becoming an ex?

TD
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Date: Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 07:36:31 (EST)
From: Sir David
Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com
To: TD
Subject: 'In Your Body'
Message:
Well there's one activity I could also suggest where one doesn't give a damn about all this being in your mind/heart crap. But you will need a consenting partner for that.

Until I read this forum I'd forgotten all the bullshit about being in your mind etc. And now I'm amazed that Maharaji is still plugging it. It's utter nonsense.
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Date: Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 08:46:52 (EST)
From: Gail
Email: freedom@gtn.net
To: Sir David
Subject: The Doubt-maker
Message:
MJ now talks about the doubt-maker and how we should not entertain doubt. It is rather strange, really, since the new-speak doesn't have much to doubt. He talks about the make-believe world such as going to Universal Studios to watch how they make movies. The bullets flying around must be fake and your money must be real.

Kind of like him and his bullets.

When Padarthonand was here in late May, he suggested pamphleting in communities where there were no premies. Just like the Watch Tower Gang.
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Date: Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 13:16:04 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: TD
Subject: 'In Your Body'
Message:
Dear TD,
I think David's thought is very valid. BM took away the minds and natrual body feelings, or tried to making any expression or experience in these areas to be things premies were to fight against. Premies are supposed to think self distructively of their own thoughts and feeling which are really only natural parts of being human, as is our ability to meditate and persive spirtiual agendas if we are so inclined. The point is, I guess that we are who and what we are, all of it and we shouldn't have to deny any part of ourselves. We should have a wholistic approach to loving ourselves and living a full life.
Best of luck to you TD and welcome.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 14:34:05 (EST)
From: Barney
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: 'In Your Body'
Message:
I'd like to relate two points regarding 'the mind' and the Doubt-Maker.

First, is an early premie experience in '73 when a bunch of us loaded up into a couple of cars for leaflet blitz at a shopping mall in a suburb near where I grew up. We were driving on the freeway and because I was trying very hard to stay away from my mind I did not comment nor offer directions when the driver, who had no clue where he was, drove past the exit to get to the mall.

I mean is that stupid or what? I was trying so hard to believe that the mind was evil and useless and that I should disregard everything that I KNEW and, instead, trust that THE FORCE would guide us. Sure, some of the blame is on me for being extremely naive, but also one must consider the propaganda meetings every night after supper to plant these ideas into the mind.

Second, and more disturbing, is that I still find myself applying this ANTI-MIND-ANTI-PERSONAL philosophy in the application of Karma and people living in darkness (AKA THE MIND) have bad things happen to them. This might be a Catholic thing, but I'm only an honorary Catholic from watching too many movies with Chuck 'Big Guns' Heston.

For example, I'll read something in the paper about somebody being killed as a result of participating in an recreational activity or any activity they are bound to that could be dangerous. And I'll go, 'yeah, if they were on the true path and staying home practicing K this would not have happened.' And I'll feel righteous and later I'll feel guilty when I find out that the person who was killed was someone that I knew and their being in that place in time and space was simply due to the fact that that was what their life was about.

Also, M did comment a few years ago about some bike riders that got killed in a crash in the Tour De France due to taking recreational bicycle riding to a competitive extreme. You've got to believe that many at that program were smugly snickering that 'yeah, they deserved to die because they were had choosen to do that with their lives and I'm here, safe and sound in this hall where I should be with the Lord and he will see me through the valley of death.'

Obviously some things are more dangerous than others, but the personal risk level increases starting with getting out of bed in the morning. And isn't there risk in flying a jet? But, also isn't risk, somewhat, decreased by experience and ability? Flying a jet for most of us would be extremely dangerous.

Anyway, it just seems that I still suffer from Poisoned Thinking. Maybe the answer is not too trust the Mind at all. Maybe M is right about that. But then I'm in the position of mindlessly driving past the exit to the mall like in my first example.

Huh? When does it end?

What's to worry about the Doubt Maker when you've had the Seeds of Confusion planted in your head?
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Date: Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 14:50:03 (EST)
From: Sir David
Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com
To: Barney
Subject: Le Tour
Message:
There was only ONE cyclist killed in that crash a few years ago. In the history of the Tour de France, only two riders have died. English rider Tom Simpson back in 1967 and that Spanish guy a few years back. I used to be a racing cyclist so I do know.

So Maharaji is not a fan of Le Tour. It just shows what a narrow minded person he is. Why, half of France comes out to watch it every year and it's a brilliant and most colourful spectacle. I like watching the mountain stages best but perhaps I'm a sadist!

Actually, far more cyclists die through recreational cycling than by racing. That's a fact. But then Maharaji never DID get his facts right, did he.
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Date: Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 15:26:52 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Sir David
Subject: Tour de Eire
Message:
David:

The Tour starts in Ireland this year. What a world!

-Scott
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Date: Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 06:39:31 (EST)
From: Sir David
Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com
To: Scott T.
Subject: Tour de Eire
Message:
Let's hope that the current childish and irresponsible behavour of some people in the north of Ireland doesn't affect the Irish stage of le Tour.
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Date: Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 10:00:38 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Sir David
Subject: Tour de Eire
Message:
David:

They aren't starting it in the north are they? That would be really dumb. Where is the start? BTW, are those riders very worried about the study linking impotence to bike riding? Will they allow recumbents on the tour some day? Now, that would be a sight. A pelaton of recumbents jockeying for position.

-Scott
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Date: Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 12:52:26 (EST)
From: Sir David
Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com
To: Scott T.
Subject: Tour de Eire
Message:
Back in the sixties there was much talk about whether racing saddles could cause impotence. I think this was doctors not understanding how and why a racing saddle was made. I never knew anyone who was affected, least of all me.

The first I heard about Le tour having an Irish stage was when you mentioned it. I'd be most surprised if they rode in the north but what I meant was that the troubles do often spill over into Eire.
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Date: Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 14:44:42 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Sir David
Subject: Recumbent [D]o [N]ot [A]scends
Message:
David:

I did not know that this controversy has been around since the 1960s. It is a very hot topic right now, due to a fairly good study done at Harvard that shows a clear link between the number of hours ridden per week (above a certain threshold) and male impotence. I have ridden very little this year, partly as a result of the studies. I've tried a number of fixes, none of which is satisfactory. There have been some attempts to redesign the saddle bit it's probably a lost cause. The issue is the design of the bike itself.

I agree about the lack of understanding of the design of racing saddles. Eliminate the horn and create a 'split' saddle and the result is an uncomfortable instability that greatly reduces performance and digs into the rear of you thighs. I would not be surprised to see cycling go into serious decline untill they get this worked out. I have a conventional racing bike and have almost decided that the only way I can continue to cycle is to start riding a recumbent. Expect the technology on those to improve greatly in the next few years. I've noticed that a number of designs can all-but-keep-up with 'A' riders on conventional bikes now. Their big disadvantage is on hills, which makes me feel awful when I get passed by a guy who looks like he's riding in an easy chair. They're getting to be very tempting.

-Scott
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Date: Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 20:46:56 (EST)
From: Sir David
Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com
To: Scott T.
Subject: Recumbent [D]o [N]ot [A]scends
Message:
If you want to turn heads in the high street, there's no better way than riding down it on a recumbent cycle. I've never ridden one but I know they are very fast on the flat, particularly with a fairing. The fastest thing I ever rode was a tandem and me and my brother-inlaw once clocked over 50 mph on the flat during a record attempt. We had a 60 tooth by 13 tooth gear and it was still too low.

I used to cycle about 400 plus miles a week in the sixties and early seventies and I never had a problem with my 'staff of life'. I don't see how a saddle could cause impotence since potency is based on blood circulation to that area. It's possible that a rounded saddle top could aggrevate the postate gland by pressing up against it but that on its own wouldn't cause impotence. I don't have a lot of faith in all research until it's proven beyond all doubt. For instance, if a middle-aged cyclist was spending hours and hours cycling every week then he may just simply be too tired to perform. Nothing to do with his saddle.

Unfortunately I can't cycle too much now but when I did, most of the cyclists I knew were all sex maniacs (myself included) and the idea of impotency was laughable. Also it's worth remembering that when we get into our forties and fifties, we can't expect to be quite the same as when we were in the flush of youth. On the other hand, that's about the age when some women become at their most demanding. It hardly seems fair does it.

Thanks for that info on the tour Joe. That Irish start should give it a nice touch.
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Date: Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 21:27:48 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Sir David
Subject: CRABS
Message:
David:

On the Ride Across America race they start the tandems a day later than the single bikes, so top finishers will come in around the same time. Still, the tandem riders usually beat the singles. Gravity loves them, but doesn't keep them from powering up hills! It's a synergetic relationship.

-Scott
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Date: Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 20:54:28 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Recumbent [D]o [N]ot [A]scends
Message:
Well, I ride my bike a lot, a conventional touring bike, virtually every morning, and it hasn't been a problem for me, so far. But the thought does cause me to reconsider my exercise routine. Scott, what was the 'threshold?' I doubt I do more that 100 miles a week, but I used to do a lot more.

Recumbent bikes look so weird to me. Also, I've seen some flip over backwards, I think with the help of a strong facing wind(?), but that was a number of years ago and maybe they are improved.
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Date: Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 21:38:15 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Recumbent [D]o [N]ot [A]scends
Message:
Joe:

I think the threshold was around 100 miles per week, which as you know is not that difficult to exceed. After my last century ride biking just hasn't been as much fun. I did a little 'chop job' on my selle san regal, which probably ruined it. Sort of discouraging. I think most of the new designs that have come out in an attempt to exploit these findings are ill-conceived. To tell the truth I don't think you can mess with the saddle very much without destroying the whole rider-bike geometry. Anyhow, I'm doing a lot more running this year.

-Scott
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Date: Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 19:00:18 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Sir David
Subject: Tour de Eire
Message:
Le Tour does begin in Ireland, but not in the north. It begins in Dublin, down the Southest Coast, over to Cork and back to, I think, Wexford or Waterford, and they Fly to France from there, some place in Normandy, I think.

But, the Orangemen are angry enough that I wouldn't put it past them trying to do something in the Republic. Sure hope not.
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Date: Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 21:01:02 (EST)
From: Sir David
Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com
To: JW
Subject: Loyal to what?
Message:
You may be surprised to know that the Orange man have got very little sympathy or support from the British people. These guys claim to be loyalists but to what are they loyal to? Certainly not Britain since there little marching circus has no relevance to ordinary Brits. We tend to see them as just ridiculous and outdated people, stuck in the past.

Nobody is interested in their obsession for marching down a particular road. It's childish. They should all go home and go to bed and play their marching games some other day.
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Date: Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 14:02:34 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Sir David
Subject: Loyal to what?
Message:
I fully agree, David. It does seem childish to require that some march, obviously meant to infuriate others and to serve as some kind of statement of dominance, go through Catholic neighborhoods.

I grew up in a family in which the Irish elements were very pro-Catholic in the Northern Ireland dispute. And some of that reflected on the British. My grandfather, for example, who is long dead, still had animosity towards the British for the way he believed they didn't respond to the potato famine. I think he saw the Northern Ireland dispute as a sort of extention of British colonialism.

I think the following generations, like my dad, don't see it that way. He was very supportive of compromise in Ireland and had lost a lot of the partisan feelings my grandfather had.
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Date: Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 17:10:16 (EST)
From: Barney
Email: None
To: Sir David
Subject: What's the word?
Message:
Actually, far more cyclists die through recreational cycling than by racing. That's a fact. But then Maharaji never DID get his facts right, did he.


But, the story of Joe Schmoe getting killed on his ride around the block doesn't sell newspapers or make the evening newscast on a World Wide basis.

Irregardless, as far as M needing to have his facts straight it's like the time I believe that Woodrow Wilson (U.S. President) used the word 'fill_in_the_word_here'(it slips me now, but after I post it will come to me) in speaking to the press or somewhere. Rather, than embarass or correct the President the word was heralded into existence.

Depends on your stature and, without saying, your audience. In this what was said was gospel.
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Date: Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 18:00:12 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Barney
Subject: What's the word?
Message:
I think the word is normalcy used instead of ''normality'' and I believe it was Hoover, referring to the (future) end of the Great Depression. But don't quote me.
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Date: Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 19:25:40 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: What's the word?
Message:
Gerry:

Normalcy and normality are both correct.

-Scott
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Date: Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 12:14:15 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: What's the word?
Message:
Yes, I checked Webster's before posting this, and saw both are acceptable, so I'll just blame the nuns for this bit of disinformation.
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Date: Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 02:03:20 (EST)
From: Barney
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: Normality
Message:
Damn, I've been believing some bullshit for all these years?
And it was Harding not Wilson?

Man, now I'm really confused.
I'm just going to masturbate and then go to bed.
No, no, no, I mean meditate.
Ok, now just do Nectar and remember Holy Name.
I'm gonna be ok.

I'm looking around trying to get to the bottom of this. I'm lacking the OED which would most likely list the complete etymology of the word normalcy.

I checked this link: http://humanities.uchicago.edu/forms_unrest/webster.form.html

the etymology of normacly shows its origins between 1855-160

Something I found on the Washington Post website talks about the Woodrow Wilson Library and sez this:

The library also holds the microphone at which Wilson made the world's first radio broadcast from outside a studio, on Armistice Day, 1923. The speech culminated the former president's gradual rapprochement with an American public that had heeded President Harding's call for a 'return to normalcy' and ignored Wilson's plea for U.S. participation in his grand plan to ensure world peace through a 'League of Nations.'
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Date: Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 20:33:47 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Barney
Subject: 'Poisoned thinking'
Message:
Hi Barney -
You wrote:

Second, and more disturbing, is that I still find myself applying this ANTI-MIND-ANTI-PERSONAL philosophy in the application of Karma and people living in darkness (AKA THE MIND) have bad things happen to them....

For example, I'll read something in the paper about somebody being killed as a result of participating in an recreational activity or any activity they are bound to that could be dangerous. And I'll go, 'yeah, if they were on the true path and staying home practicing K this would not have happened.' And I'll feel righteous and later I'll feel guilty when I find out that the person who was killed was someone that I knew and their being in that place in time and space was simply due to the fact that that was what their life was about...

Anyway, it just seems that I still suffer from Poisoned Thinking. Maybe the answer is not too trust the Mind at all. Maybe M is right about that. But then I'm in the position of mindlessly driving past the exit to the mall like in my first example.

Huh? When does it end?


I don't know if I can answer your question, but I can definitely relate to your experience of having a programmed thought sequence pop up YEARS after I had quit believiving the stuff that made me think that in the first place. Here is my example (I have told this story on the forum before). When I followed Maharaji, I believed that I was more spiritually enlightened than other people who did not have knowledge. I distinctly remember being in the grocery store one time, looking at the clerk behind the cash register and thinking 'I have a light (Knowledge) turned on inside me, and her light isn't turned on.' This made it very hard for me to relate to people that weren't premies.

The problem was that I got so used to thinking that that it became automatic. When I stopped following M and practicing knowledge, and stopped thinking that receiving knowledge had made me spritually superior, I STILL unconciously thought I was different from other people and couldn't relate to them. It took years to get rid of this programming.

I think you are on the right track. The most important thing is recognizing that you are still having those thoughts (like 'That guy wouldn't have gotten killed if he's been at a program'), and then counter them, logically. Obviously you are starting to do that - you know that you are having those thoughts, and you seem to realize that those thoughts are irrational.

I also think it's somehow comforting to believe that being a premie and/or practicing Knowledge protects you. It definitely takes away some of that fear of death, and risky situations, and uncertainty that we all have. One of the scariest things about not following M anymore was having to give up that feeling of being protected, but I don't now believe that I was ever really protected by following M. (I do think Maharaji emphasizes that 'protection' as a way to get people to follow him, by the way.)

Regards from
Katie
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Date: Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 15:18:19 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: TD
Subject: Through the clouds.
Message:
TD:

I guarantee that if you get connected to your local skydiving 'drop zone' you'll find the sort of cult you're looking for. It's expensive though. Getting certified will cost around $2,000 and a full 'rig' is another $2000 to $3000. (You've got to have a good one. Second-best is a no-go.)

-Scott
Fell through the clouds 'til I had no fear of falling.
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Date: Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 15:37:36 (EST)
From: Peter
Email: None
To: TD
Subject: escapism
Message:
So, you want to
pursue only 100% adrenalin activities such as:
bungee-jumping
skydiving
canyoning
heli-skiing
motorcycle racing
air-acrobatics in a Gulfstream


Sounds like a way to escape real life that would be almost as effective as Maharaji. Nothing wrong with being 'In Your Body' as long as you're not locked in.

and whatever else takes me to a place where I don't give a toss about my 'heart' or my 'mind'
Sounds like you're in a lot of pain. It's natural to want to escape from that. The only problem is that all the escapes seem to be dead ends.

I think that if you want to, you can find a lot of support here on the forum for dealing with the things that are causing your pain.

Best wishes, and thanks for a great Journeys entry.
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Date: Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 21:38:21 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Peter
Subject: escapism
Message:
TD,
I agree with Peter. Also it's hard to get life insurance if you become an avid skydiver, so sayeth a friend of mine who does this a lot.

VP
Used to be in my body, now I am gaining weight...
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Date: Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 21:38:38 (EST)
From: TD
Email: thedefector@hotmail.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Thanks fellow exes....
Message:
Sorry I had to go to bed after I posted that thread, so I've only just seen everyone's replies this morning....

I AM still feeling very pissed that my 'mind' was isolated as the bad guy while a premie, and that M always said that doubts were like thieves taking me away from that 'beautiful place' (my heart).

I think that is why I feel like saying 'fuck it all' and just doing activities that totally merge all my aspects (sorry Sir David, I forgot to put nookie in my list!). As a premie, it seems you end up classified like a dissected rat in that you're suddenly aware of all these separate parts (your mind, your heart, your blah blah blah) which are constantly competing for your attention. You know those cartoons where they've got a 'devil' sitting on one shoulder and an 'angel' on the other - that's a bit like how I felt as a premie. M always used those stories of Krishna in his chariot at the battlefield which only compounded the whole thing....

Anyway, thanks everyone for your great responses and examples.

Regards, TD
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Date: Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 23:13:13 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: TD
Subject: Thanks fellow exes....
Message:
TD,

Yeah, the mind/heart dichotomy is a big lie. But it's a simple lie and in some ways it sounds intuitively correct. That's what makes it so insidious. I hate it too. The whole idea that the devil, your own mind, is right inside of you and you carry it everywhere and must always be on guard. It's such a destructive idea, and terrible to your own self-esteem and mental health, in my opinion.

I had thought BM had cut back on that kind of talk these days. But I guess he hasn't. I guess he just substituted heart, for 'not being in your mind.'

For anyone who is interested, the following things helped me a lot to get back 'in my body' and to stop the cult-thinking. Now, keep in mind that I had been a celibate, poverty-striken, ashram premie when I left the cult, so some of this was new to me:

1. Go to a lot of French films;
2. Get a dog and let him love you unconditionally;
3. Have a lot of really, really great sex with people who are really good at it; be sure to take all the appropriate precautions;
4. Hang out with really great people as much as you possibly can and talk to them about your life before you were in the cult;
5. Hang around with other ex-premies, and people who have left other cults. The experiences are VERY similar, and you also see that there wasn't anything special about the cult you happen to have been in. This might be available through an ex-cult-members group in your area.
6. Get involved in some good causes, like helping people who are sick or disabled. I can't tell you how helpful this was for me in bringing me out of myself, and getting beyond the self-centeredness of BM's cult.
7. Apologize to your family, friends and anyone else you abandoned, insulted or were spiritually condescending to while in the cult. This is hard, but it feels great.
8. Tell a few premies EXACTLY how you feel, and scream at them if you want to. This also feels great, although they may be afraid to talk to you after that. If some premie has been especially heavy with you at any time, tell them off.
9. I wish there had been a forum like this when I left. If it had been, I would have posted like crazy and communicated with as many ex-premies as I could.
10. Take good care of your health, get a lot of exercise, eat good food, get a lot of sleep..... you really need to take care of yourself physically when you are going through so many emotional/mental changes in leaving a cult.
11. I found exercise extremely helpful, although I have become somewhat of an exercise addict during the past 15 years. I guess there are worse things to be addicted to, however.
12. See a GOOD therapist if you can, one who has some experience in dealing with the programmed thinking that occurs in cults. For me, I wasn't ready to do this until about 2 years after I left. Before that, I had the tendency to turn the therapist into my guru, and that wasn't good.
13. If you can, make a lot of money, get all the stuff you like to have around you, travel and live the good life. As they say, the best revenge is living well!
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Date: Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 23:31:54 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Thanks fellow exes....
Message:
JW - your post is great! Suitable for framing (and maybe even for that Journeys entry you never get around to writing.)

Thanks,
Katie
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Date: Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 02:59:47 (EST)
From: TD
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Thanks JW!
Message:
I've just read your list and it was such a tonic! As Katie said, well worth printing out!!

Curious about the French films....is it because they are so into basic sensual pleasures and don't apologise for it but just get right into it...??? Hmmmm, I might just have to stop that French boycott!

Thanks so much JW!

TD
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Date: Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 13:49:03 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: TD
Subject: French Films
Message:
Actually, it was Joy (a fellow ex-premie who also posts here) who first got me to go see French films. I think for a couple of years there, we saw absolutely every French film that came to town, and San Francisco probably gets almost all of them. But I got hooked.

I think the thing about French films that was so good for me was that the actors didn't seem like 'Hollywood glamor types' but seemed more 'normal' and did normal things, but at the same time they had that French 'quirkiness' that I loved. And you're right, there is a sensuality and they don't 'apologize' about their desires and feelings. So different from those of us raised in puritanical America, followed by the puritanical cult. I would always come away from those films feeling something that made me just a little stronger in myself.

Now, German films are something else again. Once we went to a Fastbinder marathon festival and that was a bit much!
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