Ex-Premie.Org |
Forum III Archive # 18 | |
From: Jul 14, 1998 |
To: Jul 24, 1998 |
Page: 2 Of: 5 |
Date: Fri, Jul 17, 1998 at 22:56:49 (EDT)
From: TD Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Maharaji's Meditation Message: This is a sort-of follow on from discussions down below about Maharaji and his lack of practice of Knowledge. Can you believe that premies don't seem to care that Maharaji doesn't often practise the very thing he is here to teach? It is unbelievable!! When I was starting out as a premie and having a difficult time with practising due to a busy work schedule, I felt so guilty the very first day I missed a practice. My premie partner berated me telling me 'Not to lose momentum', but then later on when I missed a couple of days due to working on a tendering bid (36 hours in a row at the office) and was very upset about missing practise, he said 'Well I know that M didn't practise for a number of years' and suddenly I felt like I'd been forgiven. It was like 'Oh great, I'm not going to suffer eternal damnation!'. But I then changed my working life in order to devote myself to K and M, and I just presumed that M was meditating more than I was, which was around about two hours a day. Maharaji keeps talking about that bloody South American fisherman who's trying to break the premie world record for practising, and how wonderful he is. I heard that story 1,567,894 times! So, how can premies accept that M doesn't need to practise for certain periods, if at all? That makes no sense at all. At least a spiritual leader like the Dalai Lama seems to live the kind of life he's advocating for Buddhists (although somebody may correct me on that). But I guess my greatest realisation of late, is that the effectiveness of Maharaji to continue as a cult-leader is largely as a result of the fact that he doesn't lead the life he advocates for his followers. Because the nature of premie life turns a lot of us into dribbling vegetables (I know this language is like a red-rag to a premie bull - so I'm expecting some good premie comebacks here!) it is no wonder that M becomes more and more impressive to premies, because he IS using the very qualities he teaches them to suppress - the mind being the key one. It's like if I set one of you exes this task. Go to a premie meeting, pretend with conviction that you are still are a premie (even though you're not), and I'm sure you would impress the pants off them with your satsang, because you would be using your mind and all your senses and have a distinct advantage over them in their inert state! That 'keeping one step ahead' of premies is what I believe is a key ingredient in the continuing appeal of M's satsangs. So come on, let me have it premie lurkers. Come on. Counter this bold theory of mine, and fellow exes, I'd welcome your comments on this as well. Regards, TD Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jul 18, 1998 at 00:15:37 (EDT)
From: Cheeseman Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: TD Subject: Maharaji's Meditation Message: The programming has done its job. If Maharaji says it's OK to eat meat, loads of premies will dive into a steak-house and consume large quantities and say, 'It's OK, Maharaji said we can eat meat!' The morality and choices that premies have is based upon what Maharaji says. It's a dependence and a fear that you cannot go against what Maharaji says. Judex mentioned the time when she, as an aspirant, asked a premie how long they practised meditation for. The premie was worried and couldn't answer her question but instead told her to write to M in America (Judex is in Australia) and ask him how long one is supposed to meditate for. I understand this programming by fear because I was subjected to it myself. Premies are afraid to go against Maharaji's wishes or advice. It is not the premies' fault but rather it is the stranglehold that Maharaji has over them. I deprogrammed myself during the eighties. I didn't try to leave Maharaji but since all satsang and programs stopped, I had no choice but to do my own thing and gradually lose the programming. After three years of being away from M I could no longer agree with his trip. It seemed so utterly wrong and it was then that I realised how much better I was without the Maharaji programming. I realised that I could use my mind and make a success of things. I became quite wealthy and yet every now and then I'd meet these poor, impoverished premies with no direction in their lives exept Maharaji and they used to marvel at how I could be so successful! Because in their minds, because I'd left Maharaji, I should have been a lonely and morose soul living in poverty and misery. That's what Maharaji had led them to believe. Maharaji does fuck all for anyone. The one thing I did used to enjoy, satsang from ordinary people, he took away. I liked the atmosphere of a good satsang but all there is now is videos of HIM. Why does he think people will like him to that extent! So in my experience, all you have to do is think for yourself for a while and forget all M's stupid slants on life and believe in yourself. You're soon far and away from the limitations of being a premie. ANd current premies will wonder how you did it. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jul 18, 1998 at 03:18:20 (EDT)
From: TD Email: None To: Cheeseman Subject: Maharaji's Meditation Message: Yo Cheese, my main Man! Thanks for your post! I became quite wealthy and yet every now and then I'd meet these poor, impoverished premies with no direction in their lives exept Maharaji and they used to marvel at how I could be so successful! It's amazing isn't it. That attitude is still so prevalent amongst the poorer premies. One premie I know said that the richer premies and ex-premies obviously just had a 'lot of luck'. I tried to explain that some may have had luck, but that often hard work and not just trusting in the grace of the Master is required.... The one thing I did used to enjoy, satsang from ordinary people, he took away. I liked the atmosphere of a good satsang but all there is now is videos of HIM. Why does he think people will like him to that extent! You know I wonder if he'll ever go back to that, especially in light of all the good feedback on this web-site. It seems to be a general consensus that we all liked the premie satsang. I didn't have it on a communal level, but had it from individual premies. As I'd said on a previous thread, I would never have gone back to a second video event, if my premie partner hadn't given me a good couple hours of his own satsang after the first one! I think we may find that as the premie numbers continue to drop off, M might panic and re-allow premie satsangs, although that may be too late, as there may only be a few of the hardcore fruitbean premies left to give it, and that might just defeat the purpose! Cheerio-anoo, TD Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jul 18, 1998 at 14:03:52 (EDT)
From: Carol Email: None To: TD Subject: Maharaji's Meditation Message: You forgot, premies can't give Satsang! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jul 18, 1998 at 19:32:57 (EDT)
From: TD Email: None To: Carol Subject: Maharaji's Meditation Message: I know, but hope was springing eternal! Regards, TD Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jul 18, 1998 at 22:52:06 (EDT)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: TD Subject: Maharaji's Meditation Message: TD: I think you've got a very clever notion there. In fact, I've been thinking about becoming a perfect master. It's a helluva lot easier than teaching or doing research. I've always wanted to find a subject that everyone agrees is important, but that no one besides myself knows anything about. I'd be totally indispensible. The sole expert. Guess it's not an original thought after all. -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 20, 1998 at 18:34:54 (EDT)
From: TD Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: Maharaji's Meditation Message: In fact, I've been thinking about becoming a perfect master. I know. Me too. And just look at the nice little seaside pad we'd get thrown in as well... TD Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 17, 1998 at 20:55:28 (EDT)
From: bftb Email: None To: Passing Thru Subject: Another innocent question or 3 Message: Thank-you for your response to my 'innocent question'.I was going to follow up on it with you but when I read it I thought you were playing games so I didn't bother. I've had a change of heart though;I'm taking you at face value and thinking that maybe you really are just expressing your honest opinion and not being a revisionist who does not believe what they say. I get from all you've written on the subject that you feel that people have misinterpreted M everytime he's broached the God topic.You figure that almost everyone seems to miss the point and it's possibly frustrating you that no one has yet been able to present you with one quote of him saying something like: 'I am literally the all knowing omnipotent creator that you call God.I am God.Yes THAT God,the God.And I have taken a human body so that you will be able to relate to me but really folks;I'm not human,well not like you are.I made you and all that is known and unknown in the universe at all times.I am the alpha and the Omega......'Well you get my point right? Now,you've made it clear that M has only ever meant that to experience God is to experience perfection and that he is the master of the experience of perfection.Not that he actually created or is the perfection that he can show you.You have intimated that if he had meant that he was literally the all knowing God then he would be being ridiculous and you wouldn't believe it for a second. I also extrapolate from that that you would begin to seriously doubt his integrity had he/were he ever to say such a preposterous thing. O.K. here it is:1)It seems that you believe M to be the Master of perfect or the perfect master or whatever.Can there be more then one perfect master at any given time?(please don't let the labels bug you,whatever you feel M to be: can there be another one of those on earth while M's on earth?) 2)If there can't be more then one at a time then do you believe that his brother Satpals disciples have been duped? 3)If there were Satpal quotes where he claimed to be the master of perfect or perfect master or the master,would you think that his devotees should leave him immediately?What would you think should be the consequences of such a mistaken claim? 4)If it were proven to you beyond a shadow of a doubt that Satpal had claimed to be God(yes THAT God)how would you expect his followers to react? 5)Let's get really hypothetical now: Pretend that you're a Satpal devotee and it comes to your attention that Satpal claimed that he was God(you know,in the way that you feel is ridiculous and impossible,yes,again;I'm talking about That God,THE God)How do you think that that would make you feel/think, and what course of action would you take to deal with those thoughts/feelings? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 17, 1998 at 21:02:54 (EDT)
From: bftb Email: oops@I forgot To: Passing Through Subject: PT,post above's for you(NT) Message: Nt Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 17, 1998 at 21:20:33 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: bftb Subject: Another innocent question or 3 Message: Excellent questions, Biff. By the way, if PT shows up here, would you please send him down my way to the 'Perfect Liar' thread? I've been trying to get him to answer my question, you know, 'If we're having a semantic dispute, let's go to a semantic expert' kind of thing. Cheers. By the way, can I borrow some ice while I'm over here? We're having a few people over. Hey, drop by if you're not doing anything. But I've got get back now. I said I'd just be a minute. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 17, 1998 at 23:34:15 (EDT)
From: TD Email: None To: bftb/Jim Subject: Another innocent question or 3 Message: Good questions bftb, and I hope they get addressed - although I have noticed the premies incredible ability to somehow respond to a thread, but never actually answer the question. I think we do a pretty good job of always answering their queries, why don't they do us the same courtesy? I'll be very interested to see how PT answers Question 1. He'll have to be very careful he doesn't contradicate what M himself says about the issue of there 'being only one at a time'. I think Jim's idea is excellent, that of getting an adjudicator, an expert in the interpretation of English phrases to once and for all settle this dispute over the meaning and implications of the title Perfect Master. Hope you get a response. Cheers, TD Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 20, 1998 at 00:26:34 (EDT)
From: Passing thru Email: None To: bftb Subject: Some answers Message: Dear bftb, As for one master or many, for me there is only one. Maharaji brought Knowledge to me, taught me how to practice it and inspires me to continue. As a result, I have enjoyed 25 years of seamless contentment and happiness. There are plenty of other people who are called masters or teachers but I have yet to find anyone who teaches anything I want know. Let their students decide about them. PT Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 20, 1998 at 14:53:45 (EDT)
From: bftb Email: None To: Passing thru Subject: Some answers Message: Thank-you.I can appreciate that M's your teacher and you don't care about others but really all I'm asking is that you answer my questions about Satpal.Not Maharaji. They are easy questions and I'm sure that you're capable of addressing them individually. What you have told me here I already knew,except maybe for the part about you not being interested in other 'masters',and I do appreciate you having shared your opinion in that way. I guess what I'm really asking you now is just to have a little patience and try to answer the questions as they were presented to you.They are about Satpal,NOT M,and this is simply an intellectual excersize that I know you are capable of dealing with.Hopefully in an honest way. I look forward to your answers because I'm really curious to tell you the truth. Thanks in advance. p.s.-FWIW:I didn't buy it for a second that the imposter was you,and that's why I didn't communicate with that person.I was waiting for the genuine PT. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 21, 1998 at 02:04:21 (EDT)
From: Passing thru Email: None To: bftb Subject: Comments Message: Dear bftb, I can't comment on Satpal with any authority as I have no idea what he's saying or doing. Let those that are listening to him make up their minds. As I've said before any human being who claims to be eternal and infinite better have a fabulous explaination. PT Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 17, 1998 at 18:21:04 (EDT)
From: FW Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Change Message: After bitchin recently to S.David and receiving a reply from Robyn about 'oppressive' work situations: I just feel I need to share about some definite improvements that have occurred at my work 'after the storm'. Well I think the authoritarian system is going to be replaced by what we have here at the Forum : ie like Brian and Katie and Robyn and who ever else look after things and there are some simple rules. There are more changes to come I can't quite see to do with finance etc. It is the advent of computer technology which has enabled this. Truly we are free to do our work better & more efficiently than ever before and thus our own time where we work doing what we want to do. The old carrot and stick of money will disappear because each person is motivated from within themselves and wishes to express themselves etc. Anyway, what happened at the school I work at is: they asked me to make some small changes: I did and saw what was wrong with their whole system. So I plucked up the courage to tell them. Then the shit hit the fan. Then I explained everything to my friends, who came to support me in my hour of need. Now they are considering what I have said. All I said is common sense and communicating with the people there about what was wrong. They have a near-perfect system which just needs transforming. But the problems exist in people's territories. Everything has to fall into the right place before the change can happen. Everyone has to be humble and admit mistakes, etc. Well that's just to tell you that after one bad day where I nearly left my job (well I did manage to say rather loudly in the holy domain of the school office - the words fuck off!). But it didn't hurt anyone and it alerted people to the extent of my frustration and I didn't leave. Well I hope everything is going well for you guys too. Lots of love with all the changes we are all experiencing. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jul 22, 1998 at 17:55:11 (EDT)
From: Carol Email: coopmtncarol@hotmail.com To: FW Subject: Change Message: FW, I thought you deserved a congratulations! I hate to see lonely threads with no responses! I have a more selfish reason to post to you and know you'll understand. I am on a roller coaster ride of feeling good or even great one day and really down the next..like today. Yesterday I was a butterfly and today I feel like I'm trapped inside a cocoon unsure how to get out! I hate to reveal the times I feel low, imagining some current premie somewhere, maybe who even knows me, as viewing my ups and downs and times of feeling miserable or crazy as a sign that i shouldn't have left the Big M. i know many others will understand it as a natural result of growth and pushing through the tough layers of pre-conceived notions and rules for my involvement in life that I constructed over my lifetime. Carol Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 23, 1998 at 11:17:39 (EDT)
From: Katie Email: None To: Carol Subject: Change Message: Hi Carol - I hope you are doing OK. I almost brought your post up to the top so other people could comment on it, but then I thought that you might not want it there. I think there are at least several other people on the forum going on the roller coaster ride with you. Take care, Katie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 17, 1998 at 15:27:53 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Please read everyone Message: Hi. I just spent a long time typing in this interesting chapter on Mohammed from the 'Lucifer Principle' down in the Mohammed thread below. Please check it out. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 17, 1998 at 17:43:54 (EDT)
From: Carol Email: None To: Jim Subject: Please read everyone Message: I read. Very interesting! It's easy for people to lump 'past perfect masters' together when in reality we know so little about what actually took place. This kind of information is valuable to de-myth the masses. I am actually beginning to believe that there were NO 'perfect masters', not just that M wasn't one! (So nice to see you making use of your personal knowledge and time to help combat ignorance.) carol Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jul 18, 1998 at 13:00:07 (EDT)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Carol Subject: Is IP Imperfect Master? Message: Carol: I've often wondered recently what some of these guys like Rai Saligram and Kirpal Singh thought about their own mission and their propaganda. I mean they must have known that they weren't all that special. How did they rationalize it to themselves? I think I related the conversation I had with David Lane about 'Imperfect Masters,' and how that is really the rule. That is really 'the Plan.' -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jul 18, 1998 at 14:06:22 (EDT)
From: Carol Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: Is IP Imperfect Master? Message: Scott, Where can I find:' the conversation I had with David Lane about 'Imperfect Masters,' and how that is really the rule.'. Carol Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jul 18, 1998 at 19:30:32 (EDT)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Carol Subject: Is IP Imperfect Master? Message: Carol: I think it was one of the first threads on the new Forum III. It was something to do with a proposition I made about Maharaji's role. I think it was somethnig like Maharaji Apologia. I can also see if you can find that email from David Lane about the 'flawed master,' but I don't seem to have access to my old email site for some reason. I stored it there I think. Basically it has to do with the notion that these masters are flawed so that we've got a good reason to leave and go out on our own. We aren't meant to be tied to a Master, in other words. -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 17, 1998 at 18:03:45 (EDT)
From: pam Email: None To: Jim Subject: Please read everyone Message: I read it and agree that it is very interesting. What is the 'Lucifer Principle?' I'd like to hear from some Muslims what they understand Mohommed to have done and been. I wonder if any them would agree with the history as stated in the 'Lucifer Principle' and how they would explain all the violence. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jul 18, 1998 at 14:50:32 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: pam Subject: The Lucifer Principle Message: is an interesting book by Howard Bloom you can get at Amazon Books. From the jacket: 'The Lucifer Principle is a revolutionary work that explores the intricate relationships betwen genetics, human behaviour and culture to put forth the thesis that 'evil' is a by-product of nature's strategies for creation and that it is woven into our most basic biological fabric.' It's a wild theory but who knows? A lot of fun to read and a lot of apparently accurate historical expositon in the process. I mean what COULD any muslims say to this? That, as far as they're concerned Mohammed's visions were real? Yeah, I guess they could. But if that's the case AND the slaughter is also true, who needs visions? Fuck 'em. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jul 18, 1998 at 19:38:44 (EDT)
From: lp..*<* Email: None To: Jim Subject: The Lucifer Principle Message: Thanks for that. I am going to show it to my muslim relative. Just because religions are like they are doesn't mean the intelligence is not concious and not a player to whatever extent. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jul 18, 1998 at 20:23:11 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: lp..*<* Subject: The Lucifer Principle Message: Just because religions are like they are doesn't mean the intelligence is not concious and not a player to whatever extent. No, and just because Coca Cola misappropriated the image at the turn of the century and Madison Avenue's exploited it further ever since doesn't mean there's not Santa Claus. Hey, Bill, what's with the 'lp'? Is this the Long Playing Bill Burke? A comment on your sexual prowess? Tell me, what WAS that workshop you went to last weekend? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 17, 1998 at 11:59:37 (EDT)
From: FW Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Off topic -mysterious object Message: Someone here told me about a website called the Quickening on WWW.artbell.com. It has some pretty worrisome environmental data and also this strange post Posted by DAVID on April 08, 1997 at 21:26:16: In Reply to: Re: Mysterious object heading this way posted by Wag on March 14, 1997 at 22:56:33: : : : : : I'm listening to the Art Bell show again right now. http:// : : : www.artbell.com/ An astronomy professor at a major U.S. university : : : will most likely hold a news conference within the next week on it. : : : They have lots of very high-quality pictures from a major telescope, : : : as well as now intelligent radio signals. : : : The object is still judged to be larger than planet earth, probably : : : hollow, self-illuminated, moving by its own force, only visible some : : : of the time. I find this vaguely disturbing but I haven't been watching television at all latey. Is this a good reason to stay away from unusual websites or is there some facts here? Anyone heard about this? I'd just like to stay sane and calm at the moment. I wish I hadn't read this but since I did - help!!! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 17, 1998 at 12:03:15 (EDT)
From: Gerry Email: None To: FW Subject: Off topic -mysterious object Message: Don't worry, it's just the Borg...you will be assimulated!!!!!!!!!!! Won't hurt a bit...promise. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 17, 1998 at 12:16:12 (EDT)
From: RT Email: why bother, we're doomed To: Free-dom Woman! Ta da.. Subject: I object. Message: Dear FW, I see you are worried. That site-ing has been en route for at least 8 years. Wait out 'the announcement', which won't come, I betcha, and then IF there is an HUGE ET object due, simply find a cave and become a survivalist. Learn to shoot, hunt, eat yams and write poetry. Millions saw the film, Independence day, so you surely don't want to be near a city. Hills for the hills, the large space object is coming! :) Don't worry, be happy. You have US to keep you amused. If that is not enuff, try Amaroo goose feather beds: the've got down under. RT Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 17, 1998 at 13:19:39 (EDT)
From: David Cheeseman Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: FW Subject: Isn't it obvious? Message: Well the description gives it away: 'The object is still judged to be larger than planet earth, probably hollow, self-illuminated, moving by its own force, only visible some of the time.' It's Maharaji's ego. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 17, 1998 at 13:33:39 (EDT)
From: Biff Email: None To: FW Subject: Off topic -mysterious object Message: I told you about art bell because you were mentioning things that reminded me of his 'quickening' theory.I also put a caveat in that post in the form of a joke. Don't worry about that object.There will always be strange things happening.Art Bell makes a tremendous living covering all the wierd stuff. Strange happenings are a hot commodity as we approach 2000,all this kind of hype is bound to get more intense as marketing campaigns kick in the closer we get to 2000.Just look at this Y2K hype.several companies will make a lot of money exploiting that non-event.In fact many people have already made fistfulls of $$$$ playing Y2K stocks. Art Bell is basically entertainment for a pre-apocolyptic culture.It's fun and should be taken with a grain of salt on many occasions. You know the sky's been falling ever since humans learnt to articulate fear,so far earth and humans are still here. Sometimes chicken little can get the better of us.Keep in mind that Art Bell was the one who 'broke' the story of the Hale-bopp comet in a big way.His website kept close track of its movements on a daily basis.His was the show that popularized the theory that there was a second object accompanying Hale-Bopp.His show had all sorts of guests on who would swear that their research lead them to believe that the object accompanying Hale-Bopp was in fact a craft;a UFO. I found it exciting and entertaining.No problem. However this little group in San Diego found it all definitely real and believable and they all killed themselves as a result of their beliefs.They were a cult called 'Heavens Gate'. Anyway,it's a fun site/show,but take it all with a grain of salt. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 17, 1998 at 13:54:20 (EDT)
From: Cheeseman Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: FW Subject: And furthermore Message: FW; the story of the giant blob cannot be true. If an object that size was in the vicinity of our solar system it would have been seen by many more astronomers. If it is far away from our solar system then it would be too small to detect. For an object that size to be seen as hollow, it would have to be pretty close to our solar system which means that many more astronomers would have seen it or picked up its supposed radio transmissions. Besides the fact that a spaceship of such proportions would have gravitational problems and would probably make the smaller planets or comets and asteroids crash into it if it entered our solar system; besides all that, if it wasn't travelling at near light speed, it would take many thousands of years to reach us from just the nearest star. I prefer the story I read a few years ago that the Moon is a hollow spaceship and full of aliens. But then I was told when I was a child that it was made of cheese. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 17, 1998 at 17:18:08 (EDT)
From: nigel Email: nigel@redrow.demon.co.uk To: Cheeseman Subject: Gruyere Maharaji Message: But then I was told when I was a child that it was made of cheese. It's all falling together now, Cheds. The fridge episode, your calling to start a religion, and now this recovered childhood revelation. Surely you are Gruyere Maharaji. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 17, 1998 at 20:16:20 (EDT)
From: CP Email: None To: FW Subject: Gruyere Maharaji Message: FW-- the big observatorys have been reporting something .But they dont call it an object. They are calling it an 'event' second in size to the big bang. Its quite famous and was first officially reported on December 17-21,1997. Its official name is a bunch of numbers. One of the astronomy sites should have info. I think they are saying it is the birth or death of a galaxy or something. If some thing big has been going on, it would'nt surprise me certain groups hijacked the whole thing into some kind of spacecraft, because they are lined up to phenomenon with that theme. It makes good millenium juice. A good time to dust off the old techniques and find one's center. Then get back to work. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 17, 1998 at 20:20:20 (EDT)
From: CP Email: None To: FW Subject: Astronomy Message: The above message is for FW Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 17, 1998 at 10:37:16 (EDT)
From: Mel Bourne Email: None To: Anyone who's interested Subject: Jim, YOU'RE RIGHT... Message: ...up to a point. I must admit, on rereading the 'Fakiranand revisted' post before I sent it the thought occurred to me that I sounded a bit like an apologist for M. However, Jim, I sent it anyway, even at the risk of your scorn, to suggest a different and maybe exaggerated (but definitely plausible) perspective and to solicit debate from other people which may provide a more objective view on the issue. The reason I did this is that I do NOT take your pronouncements on M as the final word, and reserve the right to enquire and ask questions for other view points and opinions from other Forum participants (and generally the comments were quite informative). Anyway, enough said about that stuff. You mentioned that you thought that I should reveal my identity. Well , I decline to do so at the moment for all the reasons sighted on this forum to support non disclosure. I think it unethical of you to insist and maintain my right to anonymity. However, I am happy to provide some personal details which may assist you in getting an idea of where I am coming from: 1. I live in a rural part of Australia and my job involves providing assistance to Aboriginal communities in their development with particular attention to issues of health, housing employment and family matters (including domestic violence and child abuse). I believe KK said she was involved somewhere in Aboriginal Land rights didn't she? Anyway, I am not a lawyer but a significant proportion of my work is in dealing with legal matters and discussing a lot of criminal issues with solicitors, as well as general legislative policy issues. I also assist communities plan and put together funding submissions from government and other organisations and advocate on their behalf. I have been involved in this kind of work for quite a few years now, I enjoy it and derive great satisfaction from it, I am very lucky. 2. This work gives me great experience in issues relating to social justice. Hence my obsession with matters relating to 'natural justice'. While I am not a lawyer, I believe that I have a sensitivity of these matters which are demanded in my work. It's very easy for people to prejudge situations based on their prejudices and I see this all the time, even guilty of this myself. I deal with a lot of anger and hatred (some of it directed at me by proxy) and I see some of similar traits in this Forum as I see in the communities I deal with. People here feel dispossessed betrayed and cheated. This is exactly the way Aboriginal people in Australia feel about their situation, the main difference being the severity of the problem. People here feel cheated by M and what they believed he should or should not have done for them, similarly Aboriginal people have also been dispossessed, betrayed and cheated , but in addition, been the victim of genocide, racism and abuse for over 200 years. I guess I do not need to say where I think the priority and scale of injustice lies when making a comparison between the two situations. 3. My work means that I never see premies or videos, and I last saw M at Amaroo last year (the one with the Bear story), and I the last time I saw M before that was in Melbourne a few years ago. 4. I refute entirely your conviction that I am working for M and his 'cult', not having had contact with them for years, and found the assertion by someone that I was actually reading posting from this Forum to M directly as absolutely ridiculous. These kind of assertions really make me question the credibility of this Forum and its reliability as a source of real information and facts. 5. As I said in a previous post, I still attempt to practice the techniques and reiterate that I believe these to be a source of well being in my life, this is something that is self evident to me and really, I couldn't give a hoot whether other people believe this or not. 6. I acknowledge M as the person who was instrumental in my receiving K. There may have been other ways that I would have found something like K had I not come into contact with M, but that is not really relevant. 7. I never regarded M as 'The Lord' despite heavy pressure from people like you, Jim, to do so, may be I was lucky. When I was in service to M, it was simply a matter of helping this guy spread K, but there seemed so many crazy people involved, I retreated because I felt that this craziness would compromise my practice and generally cloud what I thought was a simple issue in my life. I attempted to reappraise what I was doing and decided that I didn't want to be associated with being in a group/cult/ whatever (and all the spiritual arrogance associated), I felt I wanted to do something more productive with my life. I feel fortunate to have been able to do so. 8. Where do I stand on M right now? well, point 6 still applies. However, M has his own personality and lifestyle which I cannot and have no wish to condone. If I had moved closer to him in service, I may well be in a similar situation to you with my feelings of betrayal. However, I didn't and that was because I always felt uncomfortable about being ambitious in 'devotion' and I always generally tend to follow my feelings, irrational as that may seem. I felt that I may have disliked M's personality and would have found it hard to have the loyalty required. 9. As for M's motives and activity, I cannot judge and it is his own private business, but I acknowledge the issues of his wealth, and cynical treatment of his followers suggested by people on this Forum may eventually prove counterproductive in his efforts to spread K . This is something of course that can be debated and disputed, but I guess time will be the judge of that. 10. How do I reconcile my view in point 6 with 9. Well, I suppose if I was drowning and a murderer hauled me into his boat and saved my life, I would be have to acknowledge the role the man played in preserving my life, something that is incredibly valuable to me. On the other hand I would not endorse his murderous activity and would try to decry it. Obviously M is no murderer, and he has done something for me that I regard as incredibly valuable, but that does not mean that I cannot observe and remark on aspects of his activities that I may disagree with so I do not see any contradiction or inconsistency in the matter. 11. I have been prompted to post to this forum because I was shocked at the allegations made regarding sexual assault. I am not a 'shit stirrer' as someone has remarked. Some of my postings may have betrayed the anger and frustration that I feel about the issue especially when someone I received K from and know personally and for whom I had the highest respect and regard for was allegedly involved. 12. The most constructive comments were in two posts, one from TC last Sunday at 11.31 another from JW at 14.08 on the same day. They were clear and concise and unabusive in answering the legal action issue which was really all I wanted to talk about on the Forum. Thank you for those opinions. So that's it folks, thanks for your time and patience……. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 17, 1998 at 11:15:21 (EDT)
From: Rick Email: None To: Mel Bourne Subject: Jim, YOU'RE RIGHT... Message: zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 17, 1998 at 11:34:06 (EDT)
From: Gerry Email: None To: Mel Bourne Subject: A little improvement, MB Message: However, a few points... I think it unethical of you to insist and maintain my right to anonymity. However, I am happy to provide some personal details which may assist you in getting an idea of where I am coming from. It would have been courteous and helpful had you done this earlier on, instead of wading in with your heavy handed psuedo-legalistic pronouncements. It's nice to know a little bit about a person before engaging in these controversies, especially where you stood regarding M. Also, no one insisted you reveal your identy. They ASKED, big difference. I am not a lawyer but a significant proportion of my work is in dealing with legal matters and discussing a lot of criminal issues with solicitors, as well as general legislative policy issues. This explains the legalistic bent you portrayed. You sound like a wannabe lawyer to me, sorry. People here feel cheated by M and what they believed he should or should not have done for them, similarly Aboriginal people have also been dispossessed, betrayed and cheated , but in addition, been the victim of genocide, racism and abuse for over 200 years. I guess I do not need to say where I think the priority and scale of injustice lies when making a comparison between the two situations. Who's making a comparison? To imply so denigrades both the Aboriginal people and Ex's. See you're doing it again, Mel, taking underhanded little swipes while maintaining a facade of equanimity. 3. My work means that I never see premies or videos, and I last saw M at Amaroo last year (the one with the Bear story), and I the last time I saw M before that was in Melbourne a few years ago. Excuse me? You went to those programs and NEVER saw any premies. Bullshit, Mel, how did you even find out about them in that case. I guess there were NO premies at these events, huh. 6. I acknowledge M as the person who was instrumental in my receiving K. There may have been other ways that I would have found something like K had I not come into contact with M, but that is not really relevant. It has a lot of relevance, Mel. BM is a cult leader. You're lucky if you escaped as unscathed as you claim. A lot of people did not. ... it was simply a matter of helping this guy spread K, but there seemed so many crazy people involved You really don't get it do you Mel? The cult leader engendered all the craziness, promoted it for his own benefit. You're still blaming the victims here. Still think it's a good idea to ''help spread this knowledge?'' 8. Where do I stand on M right now? well, point 6 still applies. However, M has his own personality and lifestyle which I cannot and have no wish to condone. If I had moved closer to him in service, I may well be in a similar situation to you with my feelings of betrayal. However, I didn't and that was because I always felt uncomfortable about being ambitious in 'devotion' and I always generally tend to follow my feelings, irrational as that may seem. I felt that I may have disliked M's personality and would have found it hard to have the loyalty required. Gee, Mel can I ask you a question? Where do stand on M right now? 9. As for M's motives and activity, I cannot judge and it is his own private business, but I acknowledge the issues of his wealth, and cynical treatment of his followers suggested by people on this Forum may eventually prove counterproductive in his efforts to spread K . This is something of course that can be debated and disputed, but I guess time will be the judge of that. You better judge, that's what we humans do best and need to do constantly. It's not just his private business. He goes around the world trying to snare more people. Don't you feel any obligation to warn others? May, might, could, suggest: Mel, could you couch your statements any more ambiguously? These are ''weasel'' statements, Mel and that's why some of us saw you as a weasel. 0. How do I reconcile my view in point 6 with 9. Well, I suppose if I was drowning and a murderer hauled me into his boat and saved my life, I would be have to acknowledge the role the man played in preserving my life, something that is incredibly valuable to me. On the other hand I would not endorse his murderous activity and would try to decry it. Obviously M is no murderer, and he has done something for me that I regard as incredibly valuable, but that does not mean that I cannot observe and remark on aspects of his activities that I may disagree with so I do not see any contradiction or inconsistency in the matter. Hey this sounds like satsang, JSCA. 11. I have been prompted to post to this forum because I was shocked at the allegations made regarding sexual assault. I am not a 'shit stirrer' as someone has remarked. Some of my postings may have betrayed the anger and frustration that I feel about the issue especially when someone I received K from and know personally and for whom I had the highest respect and regard for was allegedly involved. Guess your shit detector needs a little work, huh, Mel? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 17, 1998 at 14:17:39 (EDT)
From: G's mom Email: None To: Mel Bourne Subject: Melbourne lite Message: Dear Melbourne, I must say some of your previous posts were more, antagonistic, than this one. I used to know a lot of well, what have been described as, fringe premies, I think you may have been a fringe premie. They were the premies who sort of took it all with a grain of salt and would pick and choose how they were going to practice Knowledge. They went to satsang when THEY felt like it, they sent Mr. Rawat money if they had a little ( not a lot) to spare. They never alienated their families, neglected kids, jobs or whatever.I think some of them honestly didn't think that the Guru was God. But I think Mr. Rawat did present himself as God and did encourage premies in my day to not be 'fringe'. Fringers were not profitable. Fringers could not be counted on for planes, autos, and worship. Fringers still had lives of their own. The guru was a hobby to them. Most of the people who post here were of the VERY devoted ashram types. When PT makes it look like that devotion was some sort of unexpected unwelcome anomaly ....well, he knows better, he is simply revising history to suit his need to justify Mr. Rawat's deceit. I have come to hate discussing the Mahatma abuse. I honestly think that Mr. Rawat presenting himself as God was just as much a crime. Well, I am not sure of that either, I was lucky in that what happened to me did not go that far, so for me that is true, I am not speaking for other more seriously abused women or men. But there are more pedophiles and perverts in the world than Lords of the Universe imposters and the site is really here to deal with that experience. But I ask you this... is it fair for you to 'dare' victims to risk their present lives to pursue a long ago crime? It is not you who would have to pay the price. I am sure if you have worked with victims you know they pay a price. I am glad you took JW's posts about this to heart as he explains it extremely well. Good luck to you Melbourne. ( and please take 'melbourne Lite' in the spirit of humor/humour in which it was intended) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 17, 1998 at 15:03:18 (EDT)
From: Carol Email: None To: Mel Bourne Subject: Jim, YOU'RE RIGHT... Message: He's only right about some things! Thanks for your elaboration about yourself. I for one tend to believe what people say about themselves rather than believe the harsh judgments and assumptions that some others might make when none of us really know you. Your work sounds very meaningful and your experiences are as valid as anyone else's. While it may be true that you would not have come upon knowledge by any other source, there are other sources of it. And the goal of practicing it (whatever you might call it: awareness, peace, love,enlightenment) has been and is available to us without the need of a Perfect Master. I consider it a deception the way that 'Knowledge' and M were promoted. I feel people should know all the facts. From a fellow human who doesn't just see black and white, Carol Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jul 18, 1998 at 01:34:16 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Mel Bourne Subject: Jim, YOU'RE RIGHT... Message: So that's it folks, thanks for your time and patience…… Don't mention it. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jul 18, 1998 at 02:59:40 (EDT)
From: TD Email: None To: Mel Bourne Subject: Jim, YOU'RE RIGHT... Message: Thanks Mel for finally revealing where you are coming from. Like some of the others have said, it would have been good to have known that at the start and then maybe you wouldn't have been met with the reception that you did receive in response to many of your posts. I believe you have been one of the lucky ones, in terms of your involvement with M. You were a true fringe premie and in many ways got the best of all possible outcomes. You really just learnt the techniques to meditation. That's how it should always have been. If Maharaji simply gave the techniques of Knowledge without the whole aspirant crap, and then said 'Best of luck and on your way', then there wouldn't be a need for this forum, because we wouldn't have all suffered from the other aspects that go with such an intense involvement. BUT, that's not the way it has been, and not the way M wants it. By not seeing videos you have not been subject to the heavy trip M lays on premies - especially in regards to service and propogation. Earlier this year, there seemed to be an abundance of videos where he was stating how important those two things were. He really got up the Japanese in one video, saying he virtually wasn't going to bother coming to Japan if they didn't pull their finger out! Constantly going to videos, which M encourages you to do, just keeps you in that wierd brainwashed space. The more premies get involved with the mechanics of M and DLM/EV, the more likely they are to get burnt and see what is really going on, and then that starts to weigh heavily on the simple experience of practising Knowledge. I am now glad I got involved much deeper in service, because it brought home to me much quicker what a fraud M is. I don't think the techniques of K are the main problem, but Maharaji certainly is. So, thanks again for your honesty. Regards, TD Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jul 18, 1998 at 11:30:57 (EDT)
From: Mel is helping? Email: None To: Mel Bourne Subject: Jim, YOU'RE RIGHT... Message: The readers digest did a piece on your exact area of work and thier comments were about how a previously heroic type aborigional man had a son and welfare and alchoholism took over thier culture and the man's grandson is being abused by the alchohilic son and wife. A long fall very fast for a culture that was doing fine until welfare helpers saved them from thier previous ways. You make it sound like it was some other source that waylaid these aborigionals. Unless you can make a good case that it is not you social engineers that have ruined them, then I have to accept the findings that readers digest presented that YOUR agency is the enemy of the people you supposidly are helping. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 17, 1998 at 10:31:47 (EDT)
From: dlm Email: whaler32@aol.com To: Everyone Subject: india 72 retrospect Message: over the past few months since i found the website,ive been reading all the posts and there seems to be a commonality to all of this. it seems to come down to money,power,devotion. i was thinking when we went to india in 72 flew into deli,stayed at punjab bagh place then to the fest site and on to hardwar.the things that still stick in my mind was seeing the extremly poor indian devotes......in huge lines giving their rupees to mata j a woman was kneeling next to her and they were droppping money into her skirt..i stood there for a while and watched thousands and thousands of devotes all dropping $$$$$$ into that skirt. that was my first real experience of the money angle..i still have a slide or pic from the stage of hans j. there was a sea of humanity..imagine all those rupies ..later on into the stay i was really sick i lost 65lbs from lack of eating and had disintary so bad i thought that was the end of me ..it was the middle of the night and i was wandering by the ganges wondering what i had got my self into[the mind was taking over] ..all of a sudden M was there with a couple of indian dev. he talked to me i told him i thought i was going to die...by the way the first thing i did was to fall flat on my face...pranam....he talked to me and told me to go with the indian guys and eat some yougert he was sure that would fix me he had a smile on his face i will never forget...BANG...he had me again fm that point on i was so devoted to M...it strange how time has changed the feeliings for M and how i just kind of faded away fm DLM or whatever its called now..but i still remember how dedicated all the premies that i knew were to this guy ...imagine if it were real...peace dlm Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jul 18, 1998 at 11:44:13 (EDT)
From: lord of universe Email: None To: dlm Subject: india 72 retrospect Message: Sounds rough. CD was there with you. He swam the ganges. The ones that were devoted longer really were put through some wild theater by our very own private lord of the universe. It's good you took a walk. When did you leave? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jul 18, 1998 at 20:55:16 (EDT)
From: dlm Email: whaler32@aol.com To: lord of universe Subject: india 72 retrospect Message: i was in india from oct14 to nov28 1972 it really wasnt all bad it had some pretty good parts we took off and saw some of the sights in new deli and northern india there was a group of us from the same town that went and we had to eat some real food there was a rest. that seved good food we went there 5 or 6 times the food at the ashram was real bad potatos and glucose cookies...we were forbiden to leave prem nager ..but what can you say about the crazy mind.....when we got home we slept for a week..... sick for 2 months on and off but got right back to satsang and devotion for the next 10 years....dave Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 19, 1998 at 11:22:20 (EDT)
From: ev...*<* Email: None To: dlm Subject: india 72 retrospect Message: Is your middle name lucien? So you left in 82, that means you caught the full brunt of the seventies and early eighties. How did you manage to leave in 82? Was it because of his more wacko miami events about 82? I remember one in 82 or 83 that was really a yelling session. Or did you hear the insider stuff about his behaviours at that time? Or the whole dismantleing thing gave you the out you needed. Leaving at any time still leaves a lot of sorting out to do. It was such a massive dose of lord of the universe we went through Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 20, 1998 at 19:51:58 (EDT)
From: david m ;dlm' Email: None To: ev...*<* Subject: india 72 retrospect Message: i kind of just walked away i had heard a lot of stuff and the whole thing became fishy ..rumors of drunkenness and the huge ommounts of$$$$$$$going for other thing besides peace love bliss..but the thing is still with me today as we speak ...in a wierd way im still trying to shake it Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 21, 1998 at 05:41:32 (EDT)
From: hindia Email: None To: david m ;dlm' Subject: india 72 retrospect Message: Thats understandable. We can relate, us too. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 19, 1998 at 14:46:13 (EDT)
From: CD Email: None To: dlm Subject: india 72 food Message: > the food at the ashram was real bad potatos and glucose cookies. The food I remember at the Prem Nagar site was rice, dahl, vegetables, yogurt and chai. I stood in the same lines with everybody else. I did get sick from swimming the Ganges but didn't loose much weight. When I got back to England the doctor told me to go stay in the hospital. I got a lovely nurse who liked me a whole lot! Oh well - g. CD Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 19, 1998 at 16:14:05 (EDT)
From: dvd Email: None To: CD Subject: india 72 food Message: Thats my basic diet now. Only without the indian flavors. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 19, 1998 at 17:11:53 (EDT)
From: CD Email: None To: dvd Subject: vegie diet Message: DVD? My opinion is that you can live really well on a diet of rice, lentils, vegetables, fruit and yogurt. I certainly would not force somebody to do so. I like to cook up a vegie spaghetti with a sauce of zuchinni, onions, fresh tomatoes, red bell pepper, mushrooms, japanese eggplant and a couple jars of Classico sauces. I get everything started up in butter and olive oil which I tend to overdo a bit. Of course, I do toss in a good helping of a good Merlot in the sauce. And lots of Kraft Parmesan and Romano on top. A side dish of asparagus and Portabella mushrooms sauted in olive oil and butter works real well. For your wine: Clois Du Bois Merlot (Marlestone if you have the $) and Cambria Chardonay (reserve variety if you have the $) Boones farm and Red Mountain clash with this menu. Finish off with Hagen Daz vanilla fudge and Ben and Jerrys Hail Brittania topped with strawberrys. Good vegie eating! CD Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 19, 1998 at 19:47:58 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: CD Subject: CD finally takes a stand Message: My opinion is that you can live really well on a diet of rice, lentils, vegetables, fruit and yogurt. Right on, Chris baby!!! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 20, 1998 at 02:14:10 (EDT)
From: Mickey the Pharisee Email: None To: CD Subject: vegie diet Message: Sheesh, CD, Olive oil AND butter? You gonna get clogged up arteries with dat stuff!! I think that it's best to stick to either the olive oil or butter, but not together. Good recipes, though! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 20, 1998 at 12:01:50 (EDT)
From: CD Email: None To: Mickey the Pharisee Subject: vegie diet Message: >Olive oil AND butter? I was just doing it that way. Then one day I saw a top chef on TV describe how the combination was a bit of a cooking secret. >You gonna get clogged up arteries with dat stuff! At least more direct meat fat is missing from the recipe. I do eat butter and cheese. I'm not one for a extreme 'macrobiotic' diet. As far as peoples' critique of vegie food: it can be done badly or be extremely delicious. My girlfriend was quite suprised by how good the pure vegie sphaghetti meal is. Must be the good wine! Cheers, CD Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 20, 1998 at 15:04:48 (EDT)
From: bftb Email: None To: CD Subject: vegie diet Message: Hey CD, Are there any Thai Vegie cookbooks that you're aware of and could reccomend? Thanks p.s.-There was a place in Berkeley that I used to go to(haven't gone for years now)called 'Long Life Veggie House',they made the most amazingly good szechwan chicken dishes and other simulated meats.They were the best sims I ever had.I haven't been a veg for awhile now but have lately been reconsidering-do you know of any good recipes or ways to make 'fake chicken'? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 20, 1998 at 16:30:23 (EDT)
From: Mickey the Omnivore Email: None To: bftb Subject: vegie diet Message: Hey, my beautiful wife and I eat at the Long Life Vegie House! The food is great, but I prefer Sun Hong Kong, although they are limited in the vegie dishes. There is a vegetarian diner in Berkeley called 'Michael's American Diner' with incredible sim meats; I was really impressed with its menu. Let's get together for lunch sometime, bftb! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 20, 1998 at 19:43:38 (EDT)
From: bftb Email: None To: Mickey the Omnivore Subject: vegie diet Message: Hey Mickey! I'm starting to feel like a real snob or something.This is now the second lunch invitation extended to me on this forum and in keeping with my still desired state of anonimity I will have to respectfully decline the invitation.Some of you folks are so damned nice though, that I may eventually break down and reveal myself and then go for lunch with you and JW:-) It really does make me feel like a shit to keep doing this in the face of such friendliness but hopefully you understand.However,I do thank-you for the veggie sim tips and perhaps you and your beautiful wife will spot me at one of those places someday.It'll be real easy:I'll be the guy with hamburger grease stains all over his too small T-shirt with the name BIFF written across it in huge letters. Thanks again for the tips and the invitation.Quite neighborly of you. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 21, 1998 at 01:39:08 (EDT)
From: Mickey the Pharisee Email: None To: bftb Subject: vegie diet Message: Okay bftb, no lunch until you are ready! I will respect your need for anonimity. But I do hope that the time will come when you can be free of this and live out in the open. Regards, Michael Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 17, 1998 at 08:53:38 (EDT)
From: Richard Email: None To: Everyone Subject: 3rd Rock Premies Message: Hey great news, the new series of 3rd Rock from the Sun is on British TV now! I watched it last night and, guess what, they're alien premies. Truly, it's so obvious. Dick - typical ashram secretary/community coordinator Sally - crazy housemother who can't cook for shit (very familiar) Harry - too much meditation, not enough service brother Tommy - got knowledge 'cos his Dad did The Big Giant Head - what can I say, it's obvious So it's clear that Maharaji, dissappointed with donations from Earth, has branched out into the solar system. Separate EV's on Mars, Pluto etc. of course and with absolutely no connection to Maharaji. The parallels are fantastic, the reticence in revealing too much about their origins at the workplace (been there), the clothes, particularly Harry (straight from Divine Sales), Sally's sexual frustration and aggression (pure housemother). I just pissed my pants laughing. The truth is out there. regards Richard Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 17, 1998 at 10:36:06 (EDT)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Richard Subject: 3rd Rock Premies Message: Dear Richard, God I loved your analogy. I absolutly LOVE that show, haven't seen it in so long, don't even know if it is still on but I think it is one of the funniest shows ever! Now it will be even more so thinking of the parallels to premidom! Thanks for that connection. Love, Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 17, 1998 at 10:37:22 (EDT)
From: RT Email: that re-minds me. To: Richard Subject: 3rd Rock: Spaced out Premies? Message: Richard, Thanx for the tip...I'll look for it here in the USA...never watched it (tv)in the past, due to Video Programs and playing catchup the rest of the week! As to EV in Space, a bumper sticker for them is in the works: EARTH FIRST! We'll Brainwash the other Planets Later! RT Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 17, 1998 at 12:51:06 (EDT)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: RT Subject: 3rd Rock: Spaced out Premies? Message: Dear RT, EARTH FIRST! We'll Brainwash the other Planets Later! You are so funny! I love it. Hope you had a great birthday, RT. Love, Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 17, 1998 at 15:31:55 (EDT)
From: RT Email: ..come in, earth. JSCA! To: Robyn Subject: 3rd Rock: Spaced out Premies? Message: Thanks. God is my co-pilot; the devil is my bombardier. BTW, MJ's 2nd ? executive plane -the challenger-??-was made in Montreal by Bombardier. He sold it for the new plane whose name escapes me. It's pronounced Bom bar dee-yaa. How did cobol training work out? I intend to make back my money from the years of the Whirled of Knowledge, somehow. I need 5 grand, minimum. With 16 months to the year 2000, that's only $312 a month, above my regular job income! Only $78 a week freelance. RT Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 17, 1998 at 18:20:56 (EDT)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: RT Subject: 3rd Rock: Spaced out Premies? Message: Dear RT, I am getting my resume tweaked for Cobol programming and am just going to try sending some out, I have that site bookmarked. The training would have to wait until my day job ends and the fall semester begins. My 2nd job is at the college I graduated from so I am hoping I can schmooze the prof to let me audit without signing up, no cost. They did it for me once when I was in school there so I am hoping, that is incase, as Selena said she didn't think companies would do re-training. The pronunciation of his plane's, I am suprized they have names to start with, is reminding me of a very old song. Tra la la bom de eh. Lovely. Love, Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 19, 1998 at 16:19:41 (EDT)
From: earthling Email: None To: RT Subject: 3rd Rock: Spaced out Premies? Message: Your getting your birthday wish. Comedy is your forte. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 20, 1998 at 06:14:23 (EDT)
From: Richard Email: None To: Jim Subject: Jim - The High Commander Message: Hey Jim, I can't get this out of my mind. The main character from 3rd Rock is Dick, the High Commander of the alien mission to Earth. I know we have never met but I have this spooky feeling, y'know, that you are he. Have you ever seen the program. regards Richard Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 17, 1998 at 08:49:21 (EDT)
From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: RR Subject: RR - send me the scan Message: I got this from 'RR' via the Feedback form today. It lacked an email address that would have let me respond directly. I posted a message, got a few replies, wrote back, checked a couple of days later and there were so many new messages, the thread had disappeared off the bottom of the screen. I didn't see it. Your post probably slipped into the inactive index, or from there was archived. I offered a scan of a 'God is Great but Guru is Greater' poster, from the 70s, to someone.. I thought it might be nice to display it somewhere or other, but that message had disappeared too. Send it to: brian@ex-premie.org. I definitely want it! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 17, 1998 at 07:29:18 (EDT)
From: keith Email: golddiva@wire.net.au To: Everyone Subject: Authoritarianism Message: There have been many threads of thoughts interweaving over the last couple of months...partly inspired by some books I've been reading. From reading Krishnamurti and Sri Aurobindo I began to read a biography about Carl Jung , that took a more critical stance than any other I'd read before. And then finally I began to read a book by Michel Foucault...Ethics.. volume one....and then my local library lent me the Guru Papers for two weeks only ( usually one gets four weeks ) and I have put aside all other books in order to finish the G.P , which I have almost done. Often the time when insights occur most fluently is at night when I find myself observing a type of dialectical debate happening in my psyche. What is frustrating about this is that I never can reproduce the lucidity of such ideas at a later , more in control , time . But the need to try is ever-present....like an urge that refuses to go away. I don't know where to begin....there are so many intermingled threads....so I shall have to plunge in and let matters evolve somehow. The Guru Papers itself covers many inter-related threads. Perhaps the core thread is that of 'authoritarianism'. And the vital differance between 'authoritarianism' and 'authority'. In many ways this is also a core subject in the writings of Michel Foucault and Jiddu Krishnamurti too. My understanding of this subject is partly as follows ; Authoritarianism happens when authority becomes a matter of the 'need' for power or control over others....and/or when one part of my psyche needs to exercise power or control over another seemingly weaker or inferior part of my psyche. When a person identifies with an image of him/her self that justifies playing a role of authoritarian power and/or control over others , various forms of 'corruption' usually occur. Krishnamurti often told his hearers that one should not follow any authority including himself. He would insist , 'use your own minds ..and discover the facts for yourself'. Foucault seems to be an advocate for a totally free mind , capable of learning to understand the historical influences that have helped to construct various limited world-views. Therefore the deconstruction of 'historical conditioning ' is a necessary phase leading hopefully towards a new , at least radically more unconditioned mind. Kramer and Alstad seem to be saying something very simular. They too have tried to reveal the historical contexts of authoritarianism. Of course, among my many thoughts on these and other related matters I have attempted to relate these ideas to Maharaji . I could possibly write a book about these themes ; but for various reasons I would like to invite others to debate these issues... and just see where it goes. I would especially like to explore the differance between authoritarianism ( the abuse of power ) and authority ( the natural experience of knowing , knowing that one knows... and the confidence that emanates thereof ). How does this 'subject ' relate to me and you? How can we discover and uncover authoritarian traits within our own individual make-ups ? What does it mean to be empowered ? What do I really know? And what type of knowledge is it ? Is it objective or subjective? Is anyone interested to pursue these issues? I am merely trying to open a door or any number of doors that relate to 'the masks of authoritarian power'. Keith Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 17, 1998 at 18:37:57 (EDT)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: keith Subject: Authoritarianism Message: Dear Keith, I haven't read the Guru Papers yet, work to much but almost done with that! I was very interested, though in your definitions of authoritarianism and authority, reminded me of the differences in the words agressive and assertive. I am afraid I probably have more authoritarian components in me than I'd care to admit but I will look for them in me and try to address them, I may have to ask for help as I explore this. My mother was VERY authouritarian and I have worked hard to NOT be like her but I have seen bits and glimpses in my thoughts and actions and I know I don't like it. I never really knew what it was but it is what you have described here, I think. Trying to control things that are not under your control, correct? I have heard that this is a logical outcome of growing up in an abusive, disfunctional family. You couldn't control your environment in childhood, although as the 'peace maker' I surely tried even then but now that way of dealing with life is inappropriate but ingrained. Is this making sense to you in that is relates to what you've said or am I way off. Thanks to you too Keith for bringing up another issue I need to work on. Love, Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 17, 1998 at 19:23:24 (EDT)
From: Keith Email: None To: Robyn Subject: Authoritarianism Message: Dear Robyn, You asked ; 'I am afraid I probably have more authoritarian components in me than I'd care to admit but I will look for them in me and try to address them, I may have to ask for help as I explore this. My mother was VERY authouritarian and I have worked hard to NOT be like her but I have seen bits and glimpses in my thoughts and actions and I know I don't like it. I never really knew what it was but it is what you have described here, I think. Trying to control things that are not under your control, correct? ' I think most people have more authoritarian components in them than are admitted to. My mother was and is in 'gentler' modified ways VERY authoritarian too. Yesterday we (Mirabai and I ) played a home video to my parents that we have been compiling . My mother watched the parts of herself on video with special interest and made the remark , 'I am so bossy'. I thought it was positive that she could see that and even share that insight with us. Trying to control things that are not under your control is a part of authoritarianism. It is also about the experience of power. Or rather relations of power. Who or what has power over who and what ....and why? It is a 'big' subject! I feel one issue for me is ....almost what I might refer to as basic civility. That is the respectful agreement to disagree. It is the attitude and realisation that my own views are not absolute ...and nor are anyone elses...and therefore we can avoid abusing the power we have by behaving towards others in ways that respect the rights for us all to think our own thoughts . We can disagree , but why should I want to punish you if you disagree with me or reward you if you agree with me? And why should I feel superior to someone simply because I think different thoughts...or believe in different ideas? The fact is that I do feel superior in various ways (over some people) but at least I do not exercise power over them that curbs their basic freedoms. Or is that an illusion? It's tricky ....I want to be honest with myself about myself but I realise that as a 'whole' being I am complex (as well as also being simple). Robyn , I hope I am not driving you to distraction with these ruminations. For me all this is a large field to plow ...and I'm feeling a little overwhelmed by it all. I'll finish this 'sharing' by saying that I think authoritarianism has some of its roots in a fundamental insecurity that needs (unconsciously) to justify itself by controlling whatever is perceived ( outwardly and inwardly) as being inferior, wrong or bad.....and therefore can erect a structure of beliefs around the idea of ones own superiority, rightousness and moral purity..... and this in turn creates a type of illusionary security....that must try to maintain this structure at all costs ....otherwise the 'castle' will crumble. Enough, enough! My love to you Robyn, Keith Well, I MUST ADMIT THAT ....but at least I |
Date: Fri, Jul 17, 1998 at 19:31:13 (EDT)
From: Keith Email: None To: Robyn Subject: Authoritarianism Message: SORRY for that bit of a sentence at the end. I wondered where those earlier words got too. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jul 18, 1998 at 07:05:40 (EDT)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Keith Subject: Authoritarianism Message: Dear Keith, Last night it hit me, Sir David and I had an exchange when my younger dauther was in trouble and being grounded with chours and he disagreed with the punishment which I could not back away from at the time and who knows what I'd do now and hope never to have to find out! Something he said caught me, I think really it is that I know love is the basic element in his life. Anyway, last night it hit me that it was the authoritarian WAY that I reacted to the whole situation as well as dealing with disipline with either of my children was based in this authoritarianism. It felt like something really clicked in me. I am changing a lot to, Keith and it seems that each issue I confront is interwoven to the others making the process more holistic in nature. Thanks for bringing this up now begins the harder part of exploration and change. Love to you and Mirabai, Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jul 18, 1998 at 16:08:10 (EDT)
From: nigel Email: None To: keith Subject: Authoritarianism Message: please see reply below - foot of 'Courtesy' thread. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 17, 1998 at 05:47:50 (EDT)
From: jethro Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Article in British newspaper Message: dear all, I thought the following may of ineterest here. The following short article appeared in The Daily Mail on Tuesday 14th of July 1998 in the UK. It appeared opposite the astrology page written by Jonathan Cainer, a well- known English astrologer who was (and I think still is) a premie. Jethro BEGIN TEXT July 14th 25 years ago…….. A SPIRITUAL leader addressed a mass gathering of his followers on the subject of……ice cream. MONICA PORTER recalls that tubby Lord of the Universe, Maharaji. The Guru Maharaji had a thoughtful message for his hordes of devotees gathered at the Divine Light festival at Alexandra Palace, North London. He told them: ' You can go to dozens of ice cream parlours and choose from hundreds of varieties, but you must find the one that suits you best. It's the same with religion.' The ice cream analogy was appropriate for the guru, fat 17 year-old who clearly gorged himself on the stuff. Followers were forbidden to smoke, drink, use drugs or have sex. They were, however, allowed to donate money to his sect. There were collection boxes all over Ally Pally, and for those who had come from abroad, money-changing facilities, were thoughtfully provided. The souvenir shop did a roaring trade in brass-coloured models of the guru: a snip at 85p. Many followers gave all their spare money to the Divine Light organisation so it could spread the message of peace, refusing to believe they were merely subsidising their leader, who had a vast estate in California next door to Paul Getty, and a fleet of luxury cars. Joe, 19, from Dublin donated up to £3 a week. He said:'I've given up smoking pot and drinking - I'd never have done that for Jesus'. Former teacher Lizzie Conquest, 26, gave up sex: 'I don't have sexual relationships. They take down my level of consciousness and drag me away from God.' The Indian-based sect had 6000 members in Britain at the time, for whom Maharaji was 'Lord of the Universe'. But in 1975 his angry mother Mataji - the movement's ultimate authority- tried to oust him for rampant materialism and 'encouraging his devotees to eat meat, drink alcohol and have sex'. Oh dear. He remained in power, however, and went on to get even richer and fatter. But he no longer comes to Britain. The Divine Light Mission here has been superseded by a slew of other loony cults. END TEXT Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 17, 1998 at 07:21:34 (EDT)
From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: jethro Subject: Article in British newspaper Message: You might point out to the author that the article contains a few inaccuracies - Maharaji still comes to England, he is still selling trinkets there (priced WELL over 85p), and he is still leaving England for California with more money than he came with. Perhaps the author should do a follow-up. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 17, 1998 at 07:22:26 (EDT)
From: Cheeseman Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: jethro Subject: Article in British newspaper Message: Jethro; if you still have that newspaper then it should say who wrote the article. That journalist would be very interested to know of this web site. If you let me know the name of the journalist I will fax/email them the address of this web site. I will also let them know when Haharaji is next manifesting in this land. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 17, 1998 at 07:25:33 (EDT)
From: jethro Email: None To: Cheeseman Subject: Article in British newspaper Message: Cheesman,The reporter was Monica Porter. JC Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 17, 1998 at 14:15:41 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: jethro Subject: Jonothan Cainer Message: Jonathan and his brother, Daniel, were friends of mine in LA in the early 80s. Daniel and his girlfriend, Sally, lived with me in West Hollywood. Jonothan was just this little english guy playing around with astrology. I'm so happy for him that he's found a way to make a lot of money selling people bullshit. I've actually seen his page. What a money grubber! I chatted by email a bit with Sally and Daniel last year. I think they couldn't relate to my current fix on M and that was that. Oh well. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 17, 1998 at 03:16:36 (EDT)
From: rebecca Email: fransway29@hotmail.com To: Everyone Subject: Help a Friend Message: A good friend of mine has been involved with Maharaji since the late 70s. He is just crazy about M. From my point of view, his devotion to M is causing him to waste his life. Is there any way I can help him? Also, I nearly got nabbed into this strange religion mysef. A very bad time in my life, several years ago. My friend invited me to come to the video 'events' he was holding here in town, plus I'd watch some of the videos at his house. I really loved my friend. Also, I wanted to learn the knowledge meditation techniques. However, it all just didn't seem right to me. I wanted knowledge, but the closer I got, the more it appeared to me that this Maharaji was being worshipped, and that this was a religion, even though my friend said it wasn't. Anyway, I lost interest before getting completly caught, though I was still curious about the knowledge techniques. What a great thing to find this website, with the knowledge techniques outlined. I've been practicing, but I don't think I completely understand how to do technique # 2. I can't seem to plug my ears with my thumbs while also leaving that little bit of cartilege out, while my fingers end up on my forhead and head. It seems to require quite a contortion, and my ears are not effectively convered. Can someone describe it better? I read that the fingerprint ends of the thumbs must just cover the ear opening, not go inside. I can only do that if the fingers of both hands wrap around the back of my head. Please help. Thanks Rebecca Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 17, 1998 at 06:22:51 (EDT)
From: Richard Email: r2harris@plymouth.ac.uk To: rebecca Subject: Help a Friend Message: Hi Rebecca, it's nice to hear from you. Personally I don't think that the exact positioning of fingers is critical for the 'music' technique, the main thing is to block the ears without hurting yourself, be relaxed and comfortable and try to concentrate on the 'third eye' area of your forehead. You may wish to prop-up your arms in some way (on a cushion?) to avoid cramps. I'm not a great meditator and others will probably have better advice. Sorry to hear about your friend. I myself took knowledge in '72 and although I drifted away some years ago, I have only recently seen Maharaji for exactly what he is, a pathetic and greedy but effective con artist. People usually start to have doubts on their own because they are surrounded by evidence of Maharaji's contradictary words and behaviour. Trouble is, the thing was a very big committment (the biggest) and can be hard to walk away from, mostly because either you really want the dream to be true or you can't believe that you were so stupid as to fall for it (or both). There is nothing particularly wrong with your friend, it may seem rather weak to want a personal saviour disguised as a meditation teacher but a lot of us (fairly intelligent people) fell for it. It may be important that you understand the 'hook' which binds premies to Maharaji. 1. Maharaji reveals secret techniques to aspirant which he promises not to pass on. 2. Aspirant practices meditation and has nice experience. 3. Maharaji (and everyone else) now tells aspirant that he is now part of elite group with secret knowledge and that his 'nice feelings' are [constantly being] provided directly by Maharaji, to whom he should be grateful. 4. Aspirant/premie is now told that if he leaves/rejects/betrays Maharaji his 'nice experience' will stop (meditation only works with Maharaji's grace) and he will begin to have a bad experience. 5. Finally, premies/aspirants are exhorted (from day one) never to use their minds, do not think about knowledge or you will get confused. They are now effectively hog-tied. It is important to show premies that this set of 'links' or associations is not true. 1. The meditation techniques are not exclusive to Maharaji and have been well documented and freely available for many, many years. They have been and are used by many people who also have nice experiences. 2. The experience derived from meditating with the techniques comes from within the person himself/herself and there is no need (or logical reason) to associate that experience with Maharaji or anyone else. 3. Since there is no association or actual giving, there is no need for gratitude in any form (money, loyalty, attendance at events etc.) and no danger/threat/loss involved in leaving the group or disassociating yourself from Maharaji. The meditation experience will remain the same and may even improve. 4. While leaving can involve some psychological pain (like losing a long-term relationship) loving friends, mutual support, factual information and getting your life back can be more than adequate compensation. 5. The mind is a wonderful tool for analysing past experiences in the warm light of day. I hope that some of this helps Rebecca and I'm sure that others will also contribute. Take care and post again soon. regards Richard PS Does your friend know about this site? Try and get him to take a look. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 17, 1998 at 12:19:56 (EDT)
From: Mark Email: Apple4256@aol.com To: Richard Subject: Help a Friend Message: richard what you wrote above should have its own page! Talk about effective deconstructions ! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 17, 1998 at 13:05:39 (EDT)
From: JW Email: None To: Richard Subject: Help a Friend Message: Richard: Very well said. I would just add one or two factors that keep people involved with Maharaji, despite the doubts everyone feels from his contradictions, and despite even being miserable much of the time. One additional point is that Maharaji puts on these 'programs' or 'events' or 'festivals' (depending on the time period you are talking about the names have changed). Many premies get a certain 'group high' at these programs that is not dissimilar to christian revival meetings and the like. All the focus is on Maharaji at these programs (which he also makes money from) and so it reinforces the illusion that the nice experience is coming from HIm. Since these programs are held periodically throughout the year, sometimes premies just live from program to program to get their Maharaji 'fix.' Personally, I believe that if M stopped doing programs he would lose a large number of those who continue to follow him. The other factor keeping people involved is a kind of group or social pressure. Usually premies have other premies as friends. If you leave the cult, you risk losing at least some of these 'friends' as well as incurring their disapproval, which is a strong motivation for many premies to continue. Sometimes premies have spouses and other family members who are premies and so the pressure can be even stronger not to rock the boat. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 20, 1998 at 05:58:09 (EDT)
From: Richard Email: None To: JW Subject: Social pressure Message: You're absolutely right JW, these two 'social' factors are incredibly powerful. I knew many premies who lived from one festival to the next and never really had a 'life' in between. Whe I left/drifted off I cut myself off entirely from practicing premies to avoid the confrontations. It has take me until now to gather the strength for contact. A girlfriend who took knowledge with me 26 years ago says that she no longer considers herself a premie BUT STILL like to go to satsang on occasion and likes to see Maharaji now and again. She just could not bring herself to talk negatively about him and she is a very bright and intelligent person. regards Richard Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 17, 1998 at 15:24:54 (EDT)
From: Carol Email: None To: Richard Subject: Help a Friend Message: Great post Richard. To Rebecca, Since you aren't in a cult and don't need to be obediently practicing the secret techniques..Make it work for you however you want. Use earplugs or nothing or your thumbs anywhere you want! Carol Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 17, 1998 at 07:39:46 (EDT)
From: David Cheeseman Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: rebecca Subject: Help a Friend Message: I found the music technique impossible to do that way. It would require a contortion which I am incapable of. If I do the music (2nd) technique I do it my way which is to push the little ear flaps in very gently with either my fingers or thumbs. Nobody ever explained how the hell you're supposed to stop listening to the sound of your breathing (third technique) while you're trying to listen out for music. In 26 years I've never sussed this out. Perhaps I should hold my breath! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 17, 1998 at 17:33:03 (EDT)
From: nigel Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: rebecca Subject: Help a Friend Message: Music (technique 2) as taught by David Smiff, October '78: Using each thumb, fold the lump of cartilege forwards, pressing in gently, as you rotate your thumbs till they are pointing downwards and your remaining fingers are resting on the top of your head. Always found this felt very comfortable, especially with a baragon to rest your elbows on. Excellent way of listening to the hiss of blood as it swishes through your capillaries. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jul 18, 1998 at 16:37:49 (EDT)
From: VP Email: None To: rebecca Subject: Music, rebecca Message: Music and breath are the ONLY techniques that I really have gotten anything from. I just rest my fingertips lightly on my forehead. (No need to make that little hat that the guy makes on the top of his head in the LOTU video-haha!) If I try to push that cartledge in-ouch! But I have pretty large fat pads on my thumbs and I can gently block off the ear openings without any trouble. Sir David is right-you are probably going to hear your breath while listening for music. BTW, I don't think Maharaji even meditates. (Can someone confirm this?) If it is true it is a hilarious irony. Take Care. P.S. If you ever figure out the nectar technique, please post your findings:) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 20, 1998 at 06:09:33 (EDT)
From: Richard Email: None To: VP Subject: Nectar Message: Hey VP, nice to hear from you again. I always liked the Nectar technique, though it was hard at first. The key is the little bit of skin/membrane under the tongue. This has to be GENTLY stretched over a period of time by CAREFULLY pushing the tongue (with a clean finger) up and back past the 'dangly bit' (technical term) in a curling motion. Soon it will pop-up behind this and rest quite comfortably in the cavity beyond. What happens next is that you will discover more liquid/saliver/nectar/whatever in your mouth than usual. At first you will need to withdraw your tongue to swallow but after some practice this is not necessary. Enjoy. I would be interested in others experiences, David? regards Richard Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 20, 1998 at 13:11:28 (EDT)
From: VP Email: None To: Richard Subject: Nectar Message: Hello, Richard. I have been enjoying your posts here, as usual. Thanks for that bit of info. You explained it very well. This technique has always sounded so uncomfortable, and (dare I say it?) strange that I have just avoided it before. If I think about it, sticking the fat pads of my thumbs into my ears sounds no more sane, does it? I do think that meditation is helpful for relaxation and peace of mind. Have a good one, VP Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 17, 1998 at 00:30:33 (EDT)
From: pam Email: None To: Jim Subject: MT media cannonization Message: Jim, check out my message to you down below (Mother Theresa thread) re media cannonization. Also, my message to you re Mohammed. Interested in your opinion. Thanks. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 17, 1998 at 00:33:22 (EDT)
From: pam Email: None To: Jim Subject: Jim, above message is for youl Message: Jim, the above message is for you re Mother Theresa. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 17, 1998 at 00:02:32 (EDT)
From: pam Email: None To: KK Subject: Mutant Message Message: KK, since you're working with aborigine land rights, I wonder if you have any contacts with people who still live in the tribal way. Have you read Mutant Message by Marla Morgan which I understand was banned in Australia and declared a farce? It's an inspiring tale and I doubt that it could have all been fabricated. I would especially like to hear you opinion on the healing practices (broken leg section) to hear if you've heard of any people who still heal in the old ways. Thanks for any insights. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 17, 1998 at 00:04:48 (EDT)
From: pam Email: None To: KK Subject: above post is for KK Message: Sorry, I got the subject line wrong. The above post re Mutant Message is for KK. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 20, 1998 at 02:32:43 (EDT)
From: Mickey the Pharisee Email: None To: pam Subject: above post is for KK Message: pam, I read 'Mutant Message' about four or five years ago, and there was no claim that it was fiction in the edition I read. I found it to be as believable as Carlos Castaneda's stuff, which is not believable at all. This stuff is just like the old Noble Savage crap. Don't fall for it or the stories about 'ancient methods of healing.' Use your brain; you don't belong to M any more. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 17, 1998 at 05:09:28 (EDT)
From: TD Email: None To: pam Subject: Mutant Message Message: That book was the biggest outrage in Australia. I read an excerpt from it and I never read such a crock of shit in all my life, especially as she said it was autobiographical. She got absolutely lambasted over here. The aboriginals were furious and Burnum Burnum, the elder who did a quote for it was criticised heavily by the aboriginal community for endorsing it. An Aboriginal contingent went to the States to take her on and force her publishing company to say it was a 'work of fiction', not her real-life account. There was apparently going to be a movie made and Shirley MacLaine was asked to star in it, but fortunately she checked with her Aussie pollie boyfriend Andrew Peacock who told her that Aboriginal Australia was in an absolute uproar about it. It's such a pity that it was such a success in the States. It's just one more example of how whitefellas (and not even ones from here) try to rewrite aboriginal culture. So Pam, I recommend you read some other books by aboriginals - so you can get Marla's book in perspective. Cheers, TD Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 17, 1998 at 06:47:31 (EDT)
From: cp Email: None To: pam Subject: Mutant Message Message: Try 'Women who run w/ wolves' by INES pg. 26-27. Its us Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 17, 1998 at 17:46:21 (EDT)
From: pam Email: None To: cp Subject: Mutant Message Message: I read 'Women Who Run With the Wolves,' and published a review of it. I loved it. Also heard the author speak. I'm just wondering if the old healing ways are still being practiced by any of the aborigines in Australia. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 17, 1998 at 17:43:46 (EDT)
From: pam Email: None To: TD Subject: Mutant Message Message: I heard that it was an outrage in Australia. I heard her speak. she told the audience that she had to put a disclaimer on the book saying it was fiction in order to protect the people; that they had never been caught in a census and would be tracked down if she claimed it was a true story. She was very convincing; a great speaker. Whether or not it's a true story, my question is, are any of the old healing ways still being practiced by the aborigines? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jul 18, 1998 at 06:24:48 (EDT)
From: KK Email: None To: pam Subject: Mutant Message for Pam, TD etc Message: Hi Pam I cannot answer your question in the context of Ms Morgan's writing as I haven't read her publication. I agree with the comments made by others about the challenges to her bona fides. Again I have not spoken directly to her or the Aboriginal people who personally took up the issue in the US. Now to your question, Melbourne would be better placed to answer this as he/she is located or working in isolated areas where there are traditional people likely to be more in touch with past practices. My work and knowledge are confined to the Eastern states and relatively urbanised communities. Hey, Mel Bourne - are you TD? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jul 18, 1998 at 14:26:14 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: heller@bc1.com To: KK Subject: Hey KK Message: Welcome back. What's this TD/Mel speculation? It's funny that I assumed without question that you were a guy. It's not that you're a lawyer, of course, but just that we hardly ever saw women honchos amongst the gonchos. I read your posts to Gary Ockendon to convey your 'challenge'. Did you know him? I might be going his way tomorrow for a few days and might get to see Mike Donner as well (they're friends who co-own some land with a few other families). Did you know Mike? If you did, you might want to post a message to either/or or both for me to take. (Or you could email me at the address above). Incidentally, a very nice, new-age secretary at Laurie's office gave her 'Mutant Message' to read. It was in the car last summer when we drove down the coast so I read it. What a crock. I didn't believe her for a moment. Maybe if I was 16 again and found the book when I found Castenada's fraudulent writings.... but I've already done that. Take care, Jim P.S. what's on the upper floor? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jul 18, 1998 at 18:47:39 (EDT)
From: TD Email: thedefector@hotmail.com To: KK Subject: Hey KK Message: No way, KK. I'm not Mel Bourne. I'm one of the Sid Knee Sisters with an interest in aboriginality - maybe that's where you got confused. Mel works with aboriginals. Welcome back. Regards, TD (The Defector) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 19, 1998 at 00:48:06 (EDT)
From: KK Email: None To: TD Subject: Hey TD & Mel Bourne Message: Very sorry, TD (and Mel Bourne), One of the problems with being away for a week and being relatively inexperienced with this site is that I hadn't caught up (by going into the archives and inactive files) precisely who'd said what. Please accept my sincere apologies for making an assumption without the benefit of reading all the rest of the posts. Hey Mel, you've been getting a battering. Personally I wish you well sorting all the issues out which you are dealing with on this site. Forget about the congratulations for the outing business - we both know who we are, so be it. This site is about working through some deep and genuinely troubling things which are not easily resolved. You see, I am totally out of this movement - far gone, irredeemably, so for me, the Forum is totally OK. More than OK. I imagine it could be difficult if you were in transition, in limbo etc but heavily weighed towards some 'honorable' feelings towards MJ and people like PD. I was haunted by conflict. But I wanted to claim my life back. That meant asking some hard questions. It's relatively easy being a premie. You don't have to worry about answering most life-related questions because MJ has answers for you: - the environment [it would all be OK if we left it alone] Hey, what is a Gulfstream made of? - the problems of the world [K is the answer] Hey, a lot easier than trying to fight for a woman in Mt Druitt, Broadmeadows, Inala, Elizabeth, Coolbellup who is a diabetic alcoholic with a handicapped child in public housing with the gas about to be switched off due to non-payment of the bill who has been charged with welfare fraud because her old man kept coming and going and pissing her sole parent pension up against the wall, so she stayed on it even when he lived there and well, the rest is history ..... the human armpit. Or the complexities of competing land claims or nepotism in health services or lack of running water or intergenerational removal of children .... Ugh, let me be a premie.... - being a useful member of society [SERVICE] Just do as you;'re told for the Principal. F...k the world community. Be one of the beautiful people, the elite members of the world who live in a self-indulgent microcosm of self- aggrandisement and spiritual superiority. Narcissism personified. Again, sorry TD. Talk to you again soon. Intreresting we both ended up working with the Aboriginal people. (I 'married' one as well). |
Date: Sun, Jul 19, 1998 at 11:35:28 (EDT)
From: bb Email: None To: KK Subject: Hey TD & Mel Bourne Message: Thank you for posting. Even though you are addressing mel and whomever, it is useful comments for the rest of us. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 17, 1998 at 12:36:08 (EDT)
From: Paul Email: None To: pam Subject: Mutant Message Message: Pam: the women who wrote 'Mutant Message down Under' was a local (kansas city) chiropractor who spent some years in Australia. After hitting the talk circuit and selling many books, the KC Star (newspaper) investigated and found that her many claims could not be substantiated-i.e. people who knew her in Australia said that she could not have possibly been out when she says she was. Also, the charity for which she was supposiidly donating proceeds from the book had never received a cent. The original self-publication of the book was so poorly written it appeared to have been written by a 6th grader. When a major publisher picked up the book, they cleaned it up and published it as 'fiction' (due do her lack of credibility following investigation). The original book also contained order forms for tree tree oil that she was selling. Paul Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 16, 1998 at 20:21:37 (EDT)
From: Nigel Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: Bobby, Becky, Keith et al Subject: Courtesey, ridicule and belief Message: Sorry for barging to the top of your screens when this really belongs in Bobby's 'The venomous, verminous CSICOP scum' thread below. But hey, I've been away. I say 'hello' lower down. Bobby, I am not sure how to phrase this post courteously. Sure I like courtesey and stuff, and ridicule for ridicule's sake is certainly discourteous, but the difference between attacking the validity of an idea and attacking the person expressing the idea is often no more than a matter of table manners. In recent posts you have referred to such things as rationalism and materialism (my own favoured standpoints) in such contemptuous tones that if if were counting on my philosophy to save my soul, I would have been deeply hurt. I find myself forever holding back from attacking what I see as the stupidity of various religious beliefs, simply to protect the feelings of the believer. But if people are looking to discuss what is true, rather than what makes them feel warm and cosy about the world, I am not sure anyone can do this without risking hurting people's feelings, whatever side of the divide they stand. Getting hurt is an occupational hazard of free discussion. At least if someone attacks you personally, you can always skip to the next thread without having to examine the content of their argument. Jim may be abrasive, but so bloody what? - if you don't like sandpaper, don't use it as a flannel. This is cyberspace. Even a weed like me can act tough, and if people don't like my thoughts they can respond in kind. It's fun, isn't it? I find it fun, anyway. (And it's great to see you back on-forum, BTW, Bobby.) However, I have been an atheist a decade or more now, and I am starting to get irritated by the assumptions people make about folk like me who no longer see any particular reason for believing in god. Worse is the moral censorship that is (mostly self-) imposed upon atheists when it comes to speaking out on the subject of religion. Preaching is good, morally acceptable stuff. Sharing your spiritual experiences gives people hope. What could ever be wrong with that? Nothing per se - just let me have my per se, too, and if it's less than joyful or optimistic, please respect my right to share it. When telling it how we see it, we should be free from any obligation to provide comfort to others. Hurrahaji, Moon and Applwhite provide comfort, of course, if comfort is what you really want. So do cushions, comfy chairs and Prozac . The perception is that religion is on the wane in the western world, so believers start to see themselves as a persecuted minority. Nothing could be further from the truth. 90% of Americans believe in god. Around 30% of Americans believe that god created man 'more or less in his present form around 6000 years ago'. This is scary. 60% believe in the paranormal, and in the last few years alone, 400,000 Americans have been abducted by aliens. Harvard Professor John Mack believes in these hypnotically induced accounts and has written a book about it. This is very scary . Isn't Harvard supposed to be a place of academic excellence? (I am not picking on Americans here. These are the only figures I am familiar with. It is to the US's credit that someone even tots up the figures. I wonder what they would find in India...) Premies and spiritually-oriented ex's who post on this forum routinely refer to 'rationalism' and 'Western materialism' with a supercilious contempt verging on arrogance. What the hell is wrong with materialism, exactly? Does it represent a shameful neglect of 'ancient wisdom', or something? Would somebody (Keith, Bobby, Becky, red heels?) please explain the vital truths we are missing out on. Was Darwin wrong to leave the spirit out of natural selection? Given Darwin's early background and ambitions (ie, for the priesthood), it was the last thing he wanted to do. So why did he? Do you know something that Darwin missed? Tell us about it please. There is a saying, re. the conflict in Northern Ireland, that if everyone there turned atheist they might start behaving a bit more like christians. True enough, but also highlights the way that in everyday usage 'christian' = good, decent, worthy, etc., while 'atheist' is presumed to mean something else along the lines of cynical, hard-headed, heartless etc. 'Material' = stuff. We are made of stuff and live in a universe that is made of stuff. Humans should be proud of what thay have managed to learn about stuff. What have they yet learned about non-stuff? 'Infinity' is a mathematical construct, nothing more. Talking about 'infinite bliss' now seems to me both stupid and misguided (and I too was once stupid and misguided, let me tell you brother). Last week I went to a faith dentist (do you have them over there yet?) I was quite impressed since he managed to do some pretty intricate root canal work as well as two extractions and a neat gold filling on left upper 6, without going anywhere near my mouth . Impressive, or what? But you know me - incorrigible sceptical materialist that I am. Do you know what I did? I went to proper dentist to see if my faith dentist had done the job properly, and the sour-faced old bastard said: yes the work does look persuasive, but really no more than just a placebo effect. You have been ripped-off, pal. Seems you have to be so careful nowadays. (Ok, I'm lying, but have you noticed how the paranormal lurks in obscure disprovable alleyways? Psychic healers never re-attach missing limbs, unfortunately. One of my kids has one arm less than most people.) BTW, atheists/sceptics/materalists/rationalists (damn their blackened souls) have been occasionally known to care for their children, love their neighbours (well maybe not next-door neighbours), 'see heaven in a wild flower', shake their asses, dig poetry, grow organic vegetables, care for the environment, send their mothers a birthday card, play blues harp, get drunk and give the odd penny to the poor, just like any other regular warm-blooded reptile. Toodle-pip. Nigel Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 16, 1998 at 22:03:16 (EDT)
From: Cheeseman Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: Nigel Subject: A new religion? Message: That was a good post and I agree with many of the sentiments. I'm starting a new religion. It's basically humanist or humanitarian but with the option that there is a God if you believe it to be so although He is a passive observer. Belief in Him is not essensial. What is essensial is economic growth which coupled with humanitarian principles will benefit people as individuals and as a group. If there is a God then I don't think He/She intervenes with what goes on down here. Thjat is why the very practical humanist approach is prefered by me. But main stream humanism rules out the existence of a God and I don't believe in being so dogmatic about such things. Whether there is or isn't a God is down to people's personal beliefs and experiences. But definitely, nobody has the right to preach about such a thing either way, i.e. an atheist cannot preach to a God believer and vice versa. Tolerant humanitarianism plus the sensible realisation that money is of benefit to us as individuals, family groups, friends and employees and employers; all this is my philosophy after my 45 years of 'thinking' about it. The beauty of this philosophy is that it encompasses any or no beliefs in a God and attempts to offer an olive branch to the two opposing sides. Because the essensial thing is to deal with life down here now, warts and all. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 17, 1998 at 03:43:39 (EDT)
From: bb Email: None To: Cheeseman Subject: A new recognition Message: How about altering the god view? Instead of saying that the origional intelligence doesn't intervene-(down here?). And instead of all the attributes and behaviors that religions make wild claims about, we look at the situation and human nature and sort out the clues that the design reveals. By the way Nigel, you might want to scroll down to the dawkins/god thread. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 17, 1998 at 07:22:56 (EDT)
From: RR Email: None To: Cheeseman Subject: A new religion? Message: Sounds great. Where do we send the money? Will you wear a crown? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 17, 1998 at 11:45:19 (EDT)
From: Cheeseman Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: RR Subject: A new religion? Message: I'll send you my bank account details so you can pay me direct. I think a small tiara would suit me. After reading about that guy who called himself Rama and commited suicide in the water, I am amazed at the gullability of people. This guy was telling them not to bother following him unless they could donate at least so many thousands of dollars per month. Hey if it's that easy to fool people... Well I only reqire a minumum of one thousand dollars per month and you'll be pleased to know that there's no maximum limit to what you can give me. The more money you send me the more spiritually advanced you'll become and in return you'll get my blessings plus a printed hand written letter once a year thanking you. I'll also send you photos of myself smiling happily on my luxury yacht which you may adorn your walls with. I'll also let you know how well my children are doing at their posh, private school. Since you won't be able to afford to have children yourself or will have taken a vow of celibacy, this news will be a great comfort to you and you can follow the progress of my children until they themselves take over the running of my religion. Bill; I am open minded but carefully skeptical about God being down here, as I put it. I really see no evidence of God intervening in the lives of humans as a whole. My feeling is that if God is there then He/She works through us and not in any seperate way. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 19, 1998 at 16:57:57 (EDT)
From: bb Email: None To: Cheeseman Subject: A new recognition? Message: Well, let's review the scene. Information is seperate from matter. Complex info implies intelligence. WE are intelligent. The intelligence had a hand in evolution as an integrel part of the matter,energy,intelligence group. The intelligence has a definate part of itself in us as our concious selves. It's better for us to look at the evidence of it's hand then to arbitrarily give it boundries. We are bound by some rules that keep us from escapeing our human nature. no matter what the we are god types say. We get to be individuals and it gets to be whatever it wants. It's nature is revealed by evidence of the design of us and also evidence of it's responses to people. It's responses to people might include weather alteration and animal manipulation to the things you mentioned like working through others in spite of themselves. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 19, 1998 at 17:40:56 (EDT)
From: bb Email: None To: bb Subject: A new recognition? Message: I mention animal and weather because there are some interesting stories about those subjects and people that are hard to just pass off as coincidence completely. So I will allow for that possibility because I can't refute it out of hand by some solid logic. You know how our eyes are good but not so good we see the creatures all over out bodies. Nice design touch. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 16, 1998 at 22:50:53 (EDT)
From: JW Email: None To: Nigel Subject: Courtesey, ridicule and belief Message: Nigel: Excellent post. Great comments. I wanted to mention regarding religion, freedom of religion and the like that there was a US Supreme Court decision a couple of years ago on prayer in public schools, which was once again struck down as unconstitutonal. But it was very interesting that Justice Kennedy wrote in the majority opinion that religion and 'no-religion' were equally fundamental rights and equally protected under the law. I think this was the first decision to really lay this out, much to the chagrin of christian fundamentalists, although it had always been implied before. So, under the law at least, athiests are equal to christians, or a member of any other religion equally protected.. Also, I don't think Americans are anywhere near as religious as those polls would suggest. Most people were raised with some belief in god and so many still do, but that doesn't necessarily make them religious. If you asked that question in the UK, and defintely Ireland, I think the percentages would be just as high. In France and Italy large percentages say their Catholic but church attendance is something like 20%, or even less. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 16, 1998 at 22:53:06 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: JW Subject: Great to hear from you, Nige Message: Now if only I could rip out my modem for a while. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 17, 1998 at 07:22:08 (EDT)
From: Richard Email: None To: Nigel & All Subject: Understanding arguments Message: Hey Nigel, nice post and nice to see you back. I don't entirely agree with your atheism but I lean heavily in your direction. My romantic soul is very attracted toward things spiritual but I find I am more comfortable with rational ideas, evidence and logic. I also have to say that I'm a bit of a lazy thinker and being challenged to defend my ideas concentrates the mind wonderfully. I certainly don't find Jim, MB, PT or the crazy Red Heart intimidating in the slightest. At least Jim is logical and fair and will actually concede a point if it is put consistently in a way that he can understand. Maybe that is the point here Bobby (Hi BTW, good to see you back), sometimes we argue about stuff on our own levels without attempting to translate it into a form the other can relate to. regards Richard Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 17, 1998 at 20:15:49 (EDT)
From: Keith Email: None To: Nigel Subject: I agree Message: Nigel, I cannot fault your post. Well put! But ...there are those of your persuasion who treat with hostility, righteousness, incivility , rudeness and superiority ( authoritarian traits.....the well-springs of militarism and war) those of my persuasion or of other persuasions. The challenge is surely for us all. Please read my posts on authoritarianism. What do you think? Nigel, I recant . I am sorry for my own past superiority. I reach out to you ....as non-athiest brother to athiest brother. Please don't receive my term 'brother' as new-age luvvy-duvvy talk.....it's a tongue in cheek attempt to say again.... I agree with your post! Keith Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jul 18, 1998 at 16:05:50 (EDT)
From: Nigel Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: Keith Subject: How far do you agree? Message: Thanks Keith, What did you think of the world cup? We wuz robbed, IMHO! As to your serious points, I have to say that 'authoritarian traits', since time immemorial, have characterised most mainstream religions, which mostly take the form of rigid patriarchal hiearchies. For me there are many reasons why authoritarianism so frequently manifests in, or makes common cause with, religious movements and religiously oriented governments rather than with atheistic/secular social structures. Firstly, atheism is really a 'non-belief' - one that does not typically have much of an emotional hold on its adherents. Neither does it have doctrines, rules, charismatic leaders etc. In a way the term 'atheist' is rather absurd since it involves defining oneself in terms dome something you don't believe in rather than in something you do. (I also don't believe life on earth was created by a three-headed Martian called Norma, but I wouldn't think of defining myself in terms of this non-belief, let alone joining a movement with others sharing that non-belief.) Certainly there have been a few twentieth century authoritarian governments (especially one-party communist goverments) that have embraced atheism - but largely, I suspect, to minimise the threat posed by the potential rival authoritarian belief systems represented by, say, Catholicism and Islam (help me out here, Scott!) Also, I suspect it was the mass starvation of peasants in ostensibly christian Czarist Russia that led indirectly to the persecution of religious believers under communism (this is not a justification, I hasten to add). But generally speaking, authoritarianism is a defining characteristic of fundamentalist religious belief systems, and whenever such religions gain significant influence over a country's legal, judicial or military structures you have the makings of a tyranny. And for me the only force, politically speaking, that can counter it - rather than replace it with an equal but opposite fundamentalist system, is a popular secular democracy. Tony Benn, a British socialist politician and exemplarary democrat (of the pre-Blairite school) has often made the following remark (paraphrased): 'Whenever you meet somebody with any kind of power, you should be able to demand answers to the following five questions: - What power do you hold? - How did you come by this power? - Over whom do you excercise this power? - By what right do you hold this power? - and how do we get rid of you?' The British parliament is sometimes held up as a model of democracy, but in truth it still has a long way do go. (The prime minister still appoints the Archbishop of Canterbury, and and a number bishops still sit in the House of Lords, as of right.) At the level of the individual, too, there are reasons, I believe, why people attracted to authoritarianism are also drawn to fundamentalist religion. I haven't read much Jung (didn't like), and nothing at all of Aurobindo, Krishnamurti, nor even the Guru Papers, so I will draw on other sources and make my own connections. Richard Gross in a basic psychology text gives a plausible account of what is known as the authoritarian personality: 'Typically, the authoritarian personality is hostile to people of inferior status, servile to those of higher status,contemptuous of weakness, rigid and inflexible, intolerant of ambiguity and uncertainty, unwilling to introspect feelings, and an upholder of conventional values and ways of life (as represented by religion, for example). This belief in convention and intolerance of ambiguity combine to make minorities 'them' and the authoritarian's membership group 'us'; 'they' are by definition 'bad' and 'we' are by definition 'good'.' Quite good, I thought. (Gross's book is not developing a theory of his own, but gives some very good overviews of various areas of psychology. All his conclusions are based on research that has been carried out by others.) For me, legitimate 'authority' is granted to the few by the consensus of the many, while 'authoritarianism' is established by the few for the control of the many. Authority should not feel threatened by free speech and independent thought, while both authoritarianism and religion are always to some extent threatened by both. Toodle-pip. Nigel Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 16, 1998 at 19:21:55 (EDT)
From: JW Email: None To: Everyone Subject: The Lineage of the Master Message: I appreciate all the research people have done on the supposed lineage, or lack thereof, of Maharaji. It's a signifcant thing for people to know how tenuous and unlikely it is that M has any lineage at all, that would entitle him to claim to be what he does. But I was just thinking how little that meant to me when I got involved with him and became a premie. I think Jim wrote a funny post once, (funny but probably true) about the 'due diligence' he went through to determine M's authenticity. If someone had asked me the 'lineage' of the perfect master I was devoting my entire life to, I would have had to say the masters came along something like the following order: Maharaji, his father Shri Hans, some other guy, a bunch of other Indian guys, Krishna, Buddha, Mohammad, Ram, Jesus Christ. Now, I know Hannuman was a monkey, so I guess he wasn't a perfect master, although Charanand talked about this monkey endlessly. And that guy Kabir that Maharaji was always quoting, he was just a poet or something, so he wasn't a master either, was he? How about Confucius? King Arthur? Rasputin? Maybe Ghandi? How about St. Francis?, (he was very popular around here until historical studies show how the Franciscans persecuted the native americans, so he's out). I know M said that Shri Hans, Krishna, Buddha, Mohammad and JC revealed the knowledge, but did he ever acknowledge anyone else? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 16, 1998 at 19:45:12 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: JW Subject: The highest compliment Message: If someone had asked me the 'lineage' of the perfect master I was devoting my entire life to, I would have had to say the masters came along something like the following order: Maharaji, his father Shri Hans, some other guy, a bunch of other Indian guys, Krishna, Buddha, Mohammad, Ram, Jesus Christ. JW, I wouldn't normally say anything but, well, I will. Do you realize that this sentence is what I said then almost verbatim? I don't know what to make of it. My lawyers say just to leave it alone and I'm inclined to agree. Just give me the weekened, okay? I've got to let this sit. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 16, 1998 at 22:56:37 (EDT)
From: JW Email: None To: Jim Subject: The highest compliment Message: Well, I doubt it's verbatim, Jim, but it was something like that, or at least it's how I remembered it, and it kind of summed up my thinking back then. I did give you credit for the idea, so don't sue me, I've got a whole firm here to back me up. And my firm is bigger than yours. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 16, 1998 at 19:57:26 (EDT)
From: g's mom Email: None To: JW Subject: The Lineage of the Master Message: 'know M said that Shri Hans, Krishna, Buddha, Mohammad and JC revealed the knowledge, but did he ever acknowledge anyone else?' Yes, Cheetah a direct descendant of Hannuman. I do geneology on the side. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 16, 1998 at 21:53:43 (EDT)
From: CD Email: None To: JW Subject: historic people Message: >How about Confucius? Ever hear the story (not by M) of Confucius meeting Lao Tse? Socrates is conspicuously missing from your list. Kabir is in the big Websters. CD Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 16, 1998 at 22:42:30 (EDT)
From: TD Email: None To: JW Subject: The Lineage of the Master Message: Yeah, Maharaji's lineage wasn't important to me either, until after I became a premie. Prior to that I was only interested in receiving Knowledge and finally learning to 'go within'. Then what I think happened was that somewhere along the way I sort of needed to 'validate' the experience I was having - kind of reinforce to myself that I 'got the right one' and that there was no other 'level' to attain from some other master/guru. That's why I started to read all the 'holy books' again - looking for the double meanings to the passages I was reading. In the Bhagavad Gita I would ascribe our Knowledge to the Knowledge Krishna talks about and yet would let those passages that didn't correlate or make sense, slip through my critical net. I would read with such joy Kabir's poetry, feeling just like him and how he felt about his Master. It became a cycle, practising, listening to M, reading the holy books and so on. I now realise why M quotes Kabir so much and that's because Kabir was so 'over the top' in terms of his devotion to his Master. In a way, Kabir is Maharaji's ideal premie, in that he is an obsessive devotee. Many premies do this same kind of historical reinforcing. My ex-partner did and still does, and when I was flicking M this year, a very senior EV person said to me 'How can you doubt that Knowledge is the real thing when its written about in all the holy books'. So, M may not come out and blatantly talk about his place in the history of Perfect Masters, but that is what is so sophisticated about his style of manipulation. He achieves the same thing that he did 30 years ago, albeit with a different technique. As opposed to saying 'Guru (me) is greater than God' he calls himself a Perfect Master which through the natural association and assumption made by his audience, guarantees the same result. Regards, TD Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 16, 1998 at 22:49:24 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: TD Subject: Walt Whitman, Francis Bacon Message: Did anyone ever read Maurice Bucke's bizarre but wonderfully entertaining spiritual hagiography of his bud,Walt Whitman? It's called 'Cosmic Consciousness'. In it he argues that mankind's been getting more spiritual by the century, the proof being that the enlightened beings that keep popping up every now and then -- like Bacon, Buddha, or Jesus -- keep getting cooler. Whitman, he claimed, was the most advanced enlightened guy to date. Too bad he didn't live long enough to hear the 'Peace Bomb.' Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 16, 1998 at 23:20:27 (EDT)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: JW Subject: Perfectness and Legitimacy Message: JW: Legitimacy, or the right to rule or be in authority, is an enormous issue. But you've pointed out one of the subtleties. But I was just thinking how little that meant to me when I got involved with him and became a premie. I think Jim wrote a funny post once, (funny but probably true) about the 'due diligence' he went through to determine M's authenticity. The thing is, you didn't know that there were any others even making a comparable claim, and again the oversight was largely due to the way that Knowledge was presented is the anima mundi. However, had you known that giving Knowledge was not such a unique function then you might have been a bit more discerning about M. Because he could claim to be part of the 'big' lineage we didn't bother about the details. The first step in breaking the spell or mystique of M's legitimacy involves giving people the information that there are some details to be accounted for. M used to make the claim that 'Perfect Master' merely meant that he taught 'perfectness' (which is what we called perfection in kindergarten). Well, the fact is that the term 'Perfect Master' has a consensual meaning within the tradition that M belongs to, and it means a good deal more than 'teacher of perfection.' Devotees in India are in the habit of eating the toenails and fingernails (not to mention other excreta) of the 'Perfect Master.' No one ever suggested I do such a thing with my math professor, although I'm sure he'd have been amused. (On the 'Gauss Scale,' comparing himself to that mathematician, he considered himself only about a .0003. This score hardly warrants munching on his excess carbon.) -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 17, 1998 at 12:29:12 (EDT)
From: JW Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: Perfectness and Legitimacy Message: I think that's very true, Scott. The fact that most of us had little or no knowledge of the lineage, as well as who else was out there to compare Maharaji to, meant we were at a disadvantage. Others had just enough information and knowledge to make them dangerous. I recall some premies who really acted like they were very spiritually advanced and had all kinds of spiritual knowledge, but in reality they had just read a couple of books, watched Kung Fu on television, maybe had done TM, and maybe took a trip to India during summer vacation. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 16, 1998 at 23:44:38 (EDT)
From: pam Email: None To: JW Subject: The Lineage of the Master Message: From what I've gathered from M there isn't a 'lineage,' i.e. there isn't a family tree or teachings that get passed on that entitle one to be a 'Master.' It's not something you become, it's something you are. Like a prodigy or a savant. It's a gift. Not something you qualify for. So, if that's true, searing out a lineage is a waste of time because there isn't one. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 17, 1998 at 00:06:30 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: pam Subject: The Lineage: Details? Message: Did you visit these pages? Researches made over M' hidden background that might be enlightening for many. There are more than 100 pages of unvaluable information. I bet EV would NEVER have published all this! Much more interesting that boring Divine Times. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 17, 1998 at 01:20:37 (EDT)
From: Gail Email: None To: pam Subject: The Lineage of the Master Message: How do you know he is the Lord? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 17, 1998 at 12:38:38 (EDT)
From: JW Email: None To: pam Subject: The Lineage of the Master Message: I think Maharaji has been intentionally vague about this. And also contradictory. On the one hand, great care was taken to state that M inherited the powers of perfect master from his father, who was the perfect master before him, including an implication that his father 'chose' him as the perfect master before he died. If it's true that anyone can get zapped with the power, of if you just 'are' based on some personal ability or something, then that kind of explanation wouldn't have been necessary. Also, especially in the early years, great care was also taken to explain that there is only ONE perfect master on earth at a time and it's up to human beings to find him (has there ever been a 'her'?) Persumably, if it's just a matter of personal ability, then many people possibily have that same ability. I'm not surprised that M no longer talks about a lineage, especially because the research seems to show the one he has is highly questionable, his brother also claims to have been chosen by Shri Hans and is really the perfect master and not M, and the less he says, the less people will pay attention to it. You're also right. From what I gather he doesn't have a lineage, although it's curious that he used to specifically claim one. Another form or revisionism? Does this go hand-in-hand with 'knowledge-lite' that he's been preaching for the past few years? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 17, 1998 at 15:37:15 (EDT)
From: Anon Email: None To: pam Subject: The Lineage of the Master Message: The thing is..if M was born a Master and didn't need any influence from outside to be one, as it seems you believe, then it seems remarkably odd that He chose to be born into a family situation where there was a great deal of exactly this kind of influence. I mean, He could have made it clearer for the world (that he is a Self-made-Master) if he had been born into some family who had a past history of relatives who did something completely different like being stock-brokers or something. I think it is really naive to suggest that it is mere coincidence that Maharaji was brought up in such an influential environment, and that all the past lineage and teachings counts for nothing. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 17, 1998 at 20:18:54 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: pam Subject: Really, pam? Message: From what I've gathered from M there isn't a 'lineage,' i.e. there isn't a family tree or teachings that get passed on that entitle one to be a 'Master.' pam, Where'd Maharaji say this? He didn't. Hey what's wrong with you? Didn't you see the film, Satguru Has Come? 'The light never dies but is passed along....' Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 17, 1998 at 23:09:56 (EDT)
From: Mark Email: Apple4256@aol.com To: Pam Subject: Pam /the Masterspeaks! Message: somewhere in my journey you'll find 3 different quotes on this very defining topic of lineage each about 7-10 years apart right from the horses mouth ! Obviously, we have a real Politician here ! there is no perfect master til you believe body and soul there is one then there is one. it doesn't even matter who you bow to ! I think there should be a planetary '#1 Perfect Master'contest, open to all pretenders to the throne Hold it in Atlantic City Geraldo Rivera can be MC Yanni run the orchestra Pick your belief system if you're not the central actor you've gone offline from life central & you're just another POW in Earth's great religious indoctrination wars. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 21, 1998 at 13:11:43 (EDT)
From: pam Email: None To: Jim Subject: Really, pam? Message: Whem did M. say that? In a current video shown to aspirants about the Master, in answering someone's question about how you become a Master, he says, 'You don't become a Master.' [emphasis on become]. Check it out. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 16, 1998 at 17:02:30 (EDT)
From: Free Woman formerly Judex Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Poet's Corner Message: Hi everyone. I can't stand being Judex any more so I am going to call myself FW which stands for free woman. Here is the poet's offering today: To see a world in a grain of sand and Heaven in a wild flower Hold infinity in the palm of your hand And eternity in an hour Blake Handy tip for your records: this is known as a metaphor Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 16, 1998 at 18:19:19 (EDT)
From: Carol Email: None To: Free Woman formerly Judex Subject: Poet's Corner Message: Hi FW, Thanks, here's another quote which applies well to friendships made on the forum: A friend is a person with whom I may be sincere, Before him, I may think aloud. Ralph Waldo Emerson,on Friendship Carol Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 17, 1998 at 09:55:50 (EDT)
From: FW Email: None To: Carol Subject: Poet's Corner Message: when I was a kid my mum gave me a little book on friends it said 'A friend is someone who likes you' god bless, Carol Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 16, 1998 at 19:14:28 (EDT)
From: Nigel Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: Free Woman formerly Judex Subject: Poet's Corner Message: Handy tip for your records: this is known as a metaphor And here's a handy tip for your record collection: 'Heaven in a Wild Flower' This is a sampler collection of the songs of the late, great Nick Drake. A kind deed in a cruel world. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 16, 1998 at 19:35:07 (EDT)
From: Katie Email: None To: Nigel Subject: Poet's Corner Message: Dear Nigel, Greetings! Are you back for a while, or only temporarily? It is nice to hear from you, whatever the case may be. Regards from Katie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 16, 1998 at 20:44:24 (EDT)
From: Nigel Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: Katie Subject: Poet's Corner Message: Greetings to you too, Katie. Great to be here too, but it is temporary, but only temporarily temporary (if that makes any kind of sense!) I am in the midst of trying to get a post-grad academic placement, which is why I keep my modem locked up in a drawer at work (see post below). For better or worse I should be back in August, and with a bit of luck Liverpool University will be paying my internet bills, in which case I'll see (?) a lot more of you all. Best wishes Nigel Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 17, 1998 at 09:57:59 (EDT)
From: FW Email: None To: Nigel Subject: Poet's Corner Message: Don't let the cruel stuff bring you down. Keep doing those good deeds. All will be rewarded See you from Liverpool, next! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 16, 1998 at 19:19:23 (EDT)
From: eb Email: None To: Free Woman formerly Judex Subject: Poet's Corner Message: Hey Free Woman, I've often suggested to my co-workers that we should take off to Montana, USA, get some guns and horses, and ride around calling ourselves the Free Women. (They laugh and think I'm kidding). Regarding name changes: my 7-year old recently found out that my mother is a Choctaw Indian, which makes me one also. He asked me what my name was when I lived in a tipi. I told him I was 'Running Bear.' So that's my new name around the house. Similar to Free Woman, methinks. Love, eb Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 17, 1998 at 09:41:19 (EDT)
From: Judex Email: None To: eb Subject: Poet's Corner Message: Running bear loved little white dove! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 17, 1998 at 08:07:48 (EDT)
From: Richard Email: None To: FW Subject: Poet's Corner Message: Hi FW, I love Blake, he's just so......................Gothic. regards Richard Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 17, 1998 at 11:41:18 (EDT)
From: Bobby Email: None To: Richard Subject: Poet's Corner Message: Tyger, Tyger burning bright In the forest of the night What immortal hand or eye Could frame thy fearful symmetry. The Fugs did a great job of setting this Blake poem to music. Also, Ginsberg recorded a lot of Blake. Blake was his guru and appeared to him in a vision many years ago. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 16, 1998 at 14:30:48 (EDT)
From: Selen* Email: None To: Everyone Subject: stages of exiting? Message: Gail said further down 'now I have half my mind back, the other half is wild' and I related so well. It got me wondering, are there identifyable stages one goes through after leaving M or is it different for everyone. I have noticed different stages with me, but they are related to the forum also so I am not sure if it's leaving M or the 'getting to know you' stage of the conference. Seems like it's been chronologically something like this: FEAR and self-loathing Relief at finding this site and finally posting Concern that I was wrong and M was who he said he was ANGER ANGER ANGER Detachment and numbness ANGER ANGER ANGER Humor and cynicism Caring Interest in others Wanting to help Of course they are all mixed together to some degree and I am not Mother Teresa yet, no matter who she was. Lots of anger and fear,etc. still happening but I just wondered.. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 16, 1998 at 17:05:14 (EDT)
From: VP Email: None To: Selen* Subject: stages of exiting? Message: Having been less involved than you, I have had most of those, but anger to a much lesser extent. I would have to add SADNESS and disappointment that M is not real to my list of stages. Also SHAME for being such a chowderhead. VP Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 16, 1998 at 18:14:06 (EDT)
From: carol Email: None To: Selen* Subject: stages of exiting? Message: Yes...add guilt to the list for not practicing as good as I should for many years and doubting, and relief after accepting that I had been wrong to credit M with so much sacredness and authority! I'm actually tempted to visit myself without the aid of anti-depressants for awhile and see who I am then! Carol Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 16, 1998 at 18:33:29 (EDT)
From: Selena Email: None To: carol Subject: stages of exiting? Message: And I was just thinking i need to ask my doctor to put me on the anti-depressants! I guess it's the same for all of us but in a different way or a different time frame or order of processing. No matter what, I am glad you are feeling better Carol. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 16, 1998 at 18:41:55 (EDT)
From: Carol Email: None To: Selena Subject: stages of exiting? Message: I'm feeling a wild streak and not minding being weird at the moment, but I'll probably be reaching for a new drug once I get low again! I'm a bit afraid of the unpredictability of changing or dropping medication, actually! Carol Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jul 18, 1998 at 17:54:52 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Carol Subject: Dropping medication Message: I've discovered that the best thing really is to go back to the things I used to appreciate a lot BEFORE my involvement in the cult. Go and see the best movies or shows, go and meet my best friends, spend as much time as I can doing the things I love the most, do a few crazy things, do the best for ME and not for the llr anymore, etc. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 19, 1998 at 15:54:08 (EDT)
From: Carol Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: Dropping medication Message: Unfortunately the 'best things' for me prior to M included marijuana, LSD, 'free' sex, in addition to or at the same time as all the same things you mentioned! I'm having a problem currently with a lack of desire and motivation to do much of anything. Not that I don't have goals and aspirations in the background. I'm tired all the time. I would love a guilt-free vacation somewhere beautiful where I had no responsibilties. I'm seeing a Dr. and changing my medication. The lab tests showed that I did not have a high enough level of anti-depressant in my blood to work at all, but instead of increasing the one I've been on, we're changing it. There are also constant demands on me to help my parents and kids. It just seems too hard right now! Think I'll take a nap....zzzzz Carol Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 16, 1998 at 19:10:04 (EDT)
From: Selena Email: None To: Selen* Subject: stages of exiting? Message: add on another one: sadness Just heard from someone who helped put me over the edge and out the door re: the bigM I don't feel good, for her sake, about giving details. But it did make me see another stage. Sadness and loss. thanks a lot M you sure know how to help widen the rift between people. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 16, 1998 at 19:39:40 (EDT)
From: Victoria Email: None To: Selena Subject: stages of exiting? Message: Add on another one...embarassment. I remember many embarassing moments when something was discussed that was common knowledge to everyone...somebody famous died, or some movie, or something everyone seemed to know about, but I didn't. Then I would realize, that must have happened in 1977. So, then do I explain what I did in 1977 that I missed knowing about whatever it was? Victoria Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 16, 1998 at 19:43:56 (EDT)
From: Katie Email: None To: Victoria Subject: stages of exiting? Message: Also: alienation. Alienation from premies, and alienation from everyone else in the world because you'd spent so long in the premie world that you couldn't relate to anyone but premies. This was one of my biggest problems. This, and fear that I'd go nuts for not using the 'most precious gift'. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jul 18, 1998 at 14:12:47 (EDT)
From: Gail Email: None To: Katie Subject: headaches??? Message: I have had a terrible intermittant headache for about a week. I have never had one like this before. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jul 18, 1998 at 17:59:58 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Gail Subject: Jim's pill Message: Having a good argument with Jim is very therapeutic! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 19, 1998 at 02:09:53 (EDT)
From: Selene Email: None To: Gail Subject: headaches??? Message: You may have noticed my posts about the migraines, cat scans The headaches are new to me. Only in the last 2 weeks. I have never had a migraine before. So we are under psychic attack but I have lit candles and I dance really well, (drool you stupid PT) And I think the spell has been broken. but of course this is nonsense. My headaches are due to worrying about my new baby and the new project at work. Sorry ex guru you are last on the list of anxiety causes at the moment. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |