Ex-Premie.Org |
Forum III Archive # 19 | |
From: Jul 19, 1998 |
To: Aug 1, 1998 |
Page: 2 Of: 5 |
Keith -:- Love -:- Tues, Jul 28, 1998 at 07:12:17 (EDT) __Victoria -:- Devotional Love -:- Tues, Jul 28, 1998 at 09:23:25 (EDT) ____Mark -:- Devotional Love -:- Tues, Jul 28, 1998 at 10:41:45 (EDT) ______RT -:- Parting is such sweet swallow. -:- Tues, Jul 28, 1998 at 14:13:55 (EDT) ______Gail -:- Devotional Love -:- Tues, Jul 28, 1998 at 19:14:36 (EDT) ________Katie -:- Video Love -:- Tues, Jul 28, 1998 at 20:09:29 (EDT) ________Jim -:- That's easy, Gail -:- Tues, Jul 28, 1998 at 20:52:57 (EDT) __________John -:- Hey I agree! -:- Wed, Jul 29, 1998 at 12:48:21 (EDT) __________Mike -:- Humor -:- Wed, Jul 29, 1998 at 14:43:38 (EDT) ____david m -:- Devotional Love -:- Tues, Jul 28, 1998 at 15:05:16 (EDT) ____John -:- Just a few thoughts -:- Tues, Jul 28, 1998 at 15:33:48 (EDT) ______Mike -:- Just a few thoughts -:- Tues, Jul 28, 1998 at 16:13:18 (EDT) ________John -:- Just a few thoughts -:- Tues, Jul 28, 1998 at 17:25:27 (EDT) __________Mike -:- Just a few thoughts -:- Tues, Jul 28, 1998 at 18:09:53 (EDT) __________Peter -:- that's easy -:- Tues, Jul 28, 1998 at 23:19:40 (EDT) ______Mickey the Pharisee -:- Just a few thoughts -:- Tues, Jul 28, 1998 at 17:47:26 (EDT) ____Keith -:- Devotional Love -:- Tues, Jul 28, 1998 at 17:40:55 (EDT) ______Becky -:- Devotional Love -:- Thurs, Jul 30, 1998 at 08:28:06 (EDT) __Jerry -:- Love -:- Tues, Jul 28, 1998 at 09:43:27 (EDT) __Mike -:- Love -:- Tues, Jul 28, 1998 at 11:42:38 (EDT) __Carol -:- Love -:- Tues, Jul 28, 1998 at 13:34:21 (EDT) ____Jim -:- Yes, Carol, exactly -:- Tues, Jul 28, 1998 at 14:00:49 (EDT) ______Carol -:- Yes, Carol, exactly -:- Wed, Jul 29, 1998 at 16:49:28 (EDT) ____Mike -:- Love -:- Tues, Jul 28, 1998 at 14:55:10 (EDT) __Nigel -:- You're doing it again, Keith.. -:- Tues, Jul 28, 1998 at 15:39:52 (EDT) __Becky -:- Imagined Love? -:- Thurs, Jul 30, 1998 at 08:24:47 (EDT) Mark -:- The Forum -:- Mon, Jul 27, 1998 at 22:56:40 (EDT) __Jim -:- The Forum -:- Mon, Jul 27, 1998 at 23:40:47 (EDT) __bb -:- The Forum -:- Tues, Jul 28, 1998 at 02:04:28 (EDT) ____Keith -:- The Forum -:- Tues, Jul 28, 1998 at 02:34:35 (EDT) ______Carol -:- The Forum -:- Tues, Jul 28, 1998 at 03:10:13 (EDT) ________Jim -:- Right on, Carol! -:- Tues, Jul 28, 1998 at 03:38:57 (EDT) __________Keith -:- Right on, Carol! -:- Tues, Jul 28, 1998 at 03:51:38 (EDT) ____________Keith -:- Right on, Carol! -:- Tues, Jul 28, 1998 at 04:00:35 (EDT) ____________Richard -:- Right on, Carol! -:- Tues, Jul 28, 1998 at 06:19:44 (EDT) ________Brian -:- The Forum -:- Tues, Jul 28, 1998 at 06:52:40 (EDT) __________Carol -:- The Forum -:- Tues, Jul 28, 1998 at 12:53:56 (EDT) ________Mark -:- The Forum/ Brian I second it! -:- Tues, Jul 28, 1998 at 10:50:49 (EDT) ________Gerry -:- The ''other site'' -:- Tues, Jul 28, 1998 at 11:17:08 (EDT) __________Katie -:- The ''other site'' -:- Tues, Jul 28, 1998 at 11:48:58 (EDT) ____________Jerry -:- The ''other site'' -:- Tues, Jul 28, 1998 at 12:19:32 (EDT) ______Mike -:- The Forum -:- Wed, Jul 29, 1998 at 16:56:27 (EDT) ____Keith -:- The Forum -:- Tues, Jul 28, 1998 at 03:23:14 (EDT) ______Keith -:- The Forum ; carol -:- Tues, Jul 28, 1998 at 03:42:36 (EDT) ________Jim -:- Keith's folly -:- Tues, Jul 28, 1998 at 04:17:56 (EDT) __________Keith -:- Keith's folly -:- Tues, Jul 28, 1998 at 04:53:08 (EDT) ____________Jim -:- Keith, you are absolutely nuts -:- Tues, Jul 28, 1998 at 14:18:01 (EDT) ________Gerry -:- The Forum, The Listserver -:- Tues, Jul 28, 1998 at 11:34:44 (EDT) __________Keith -:- The Forum, The Listserver -:- Tues, Jul 28, 1998 at 17:18:21 (EDT) ____________Gerry -:- The Forum, The Listserver -:- Tues, Jul 28, 1998 at 17:53:06 (EDT) ______________Keith -:- The Forum, The Listserver -:- Tues, Jul 28, 1998 at 19:01:43 (EDT) ____________Carol -:- The Forum:Right On Katie! -:- Thurs, Jul 30, 1998 at 04:51:37 (EDT) ______________Selena -:- I think it was 'self-righteous -:- Thurs, Jul 30, 1998 at 13:14:18 (EDT) ________________Carol -:- I think it was 'self-righteous -:- Thurs, Jul 30, 1998 at 16:16:39 (EDT) ______________Jim -:- New age jargon, Carol -:- Thurs, Jul 30, 1998 at 13:28:27 (EDT) ________________Carol -:- Nitpicking,Jim -:- Thurs, Jul 30, 1998 at 16:19:36 (EDT) __________________Mickey the Pharisee -:- Nitpicking,Jim -:- Thurs, Jul 30, 1998 at 16:40:34 (EDT) ____________________Carol -:- Guess, I'll try harder -:- Thurs, Jul 30, 1998 at 16:52:02 (EDT) ______________________Mickey the Pharisee -:- Guess, I'll try harder -:- Thurs, Jul 30, 1998 at 17:15:41 (EDT) ________________________Mickey the Pharisee -:- Oops! -:- Thurs, Jul 30, 1998 at 17:20:14 (EDT) __________________________M the P again! -:- Hey Carol -:- Thurs, Jul 30, 1998 at 17:28:59 (EDT) ____________________________Carol -:- Hey Carol -:- Thurs, Jul 30, 1998 at 18:17:42 (EDT) ____________________Jim -:- Nitpicking,Jim -:- Thurs, Jul 30, 1998 at 20:49:28 (EDT) ______________________Mickey the Pharisee -:- Nitpicking,Jim -:- Thurs, Jul 30, 1998 at 22:30:45 (EDT) ______Richard -:- The Forum -:- Tues, Jul 28, 1998 at 06:37:35 (EDT) ________Keith -:- The Forum -:- Tues, Jul 28, 1998 at 08:07:35 (EDT) __________Richard -:- patronising, sanctimonious bul -:- Tues, Jul 28, 1998 at 11:12:52 (EDT) ____VP -:- bb, off topic -:- Tues, Jul 28, 1998 at 15:12:42 (EDT) __TD -:- The Forum -:- Thurs, Jul 30, 1998 at 00:16:17 (EDT) ____Carol -:- The Forum -:- Thurs, Jul 30, 1998 at 05:07:43 (EDT) ______TD -:- The Forum -:- Thurs, Jul 30, 1998 at 07:57:17 (EDT) ________Carol -:- The Forum -:- Thurs, Jul 30, 1998 at 16:25:07 (EDT) ____Richard -:- Well worth 2 cents TD... -:- Thurs, Jul 30, 1998 at 09:45:49 (EDT) ______TD -:- Ta Richard! -:- Thurs, Jul 30, 1998 at 10:28:28 (EDT) ____Katie -:- Great post, TD -:- Thurs, Jul 30, 1998 at 10:12:12 (EDT) ______TD -:- Thanks Katie! -:- Thurs, Jul 30, 1998 at 10:37:59 (EDT) Jim -:- Monitor crashes -- off topic -:- Mon, Jul 27, 1998 at 20:41:45 (EDT) __Gerry -:- Monitor crashes -- off topic -:- Mon, Jul 27, 1998 at 20:47:48 (EDT) ____Jim -:- Monitor crashes -- off topic -:- Mon, Jul 27, 1998 at 21:22:51 (EDT) __Victoria -:- Monitor crashes -- clear cache -:- Tues, Jul 28, 1998 at 10:28:55 (EDT) VP -:- And it is ...'Connect'? -:- Mon, Jul 27, 1998 at 19:05:26 (EDT) __Jim -:- Hey Veep -:- Mon, Jul 27, 1998 at 19:31:03 (EDT) ____VP -:- Connect and a new album -:- Mon, Jul 27, 1998 at 22:36:04 (EDT) ______Gail -:- Meditating On Your Love -:- Tues, Jul 28, 1998 at 00:41:33 (EDT) Keith -:- Kick my butt -:- Mon, Jul 27, 1998 at 18:47:34 (EDT) __Did someone tape that -:- sign to your back? -:- Mon, Jul 27, 1998 at 19:37:21 (EDT) __Generator -:- wassa madda? -:- Mon, Jul 27, 1998 at 19:46:17 (EDT) __Jim -:- So you're a liar, Keith? -:- Mon, Jul 27, 1998 at 20:07:16 (EDT) ____Keith -:- So you're a liar, Keith? -:- Mon, Jul 27, 1998 at 22:17:22 (EDT) ______Jim -:- Yeah, that's what I thought -:- Mon, Jul 27, 1998 at 22:45:27 (EDT) ________Keith -:- Yeah, that's what I thought -:- Tues, Jul 28, 1998 at 00:04:19 (EDT) __________Keith -:- athiest asshole -:- Tues, Jul 28, 1998 at 00:19:05 (EDT) ____________beeb -:- athiest asswhole -:- Tues, Jul 28, 1998 at 02:49:37 (EDT) ______________Keith -:- athiest asswhole -:- Tues, Jul 28, 1998 at 06:06:29 (EDT) __Mike -:- Kick my butt -:- Mon, Jul 27, 1998 at 20:13:04 (EDT) ____Gerry -:- Kick my butt -:- Mon, Jul 27, 1998 at 20:44:02 (EDT) ______Mike -:- Thanks -:- Tues, Jul 28, 1998 at 11:29:36 (EDT) ________Carol -:- Thanks -:- Tues, Jul 28, 1998 at 13:22:40 (EDT) __________Mike -:- Thanks -:- Tues, Jul 28, 1998 at 15:58:44 (EDT) ________Rick -:- Thanks -:- Tues, Jul 28, 1998 at 15:26:52 (EDT) __________Mike -:- Thanks -:- Tues, Jul 28, 1998 at 16:53:42 (EDT) ____________Rick -:- Thanks -:- Tues, Jul 28, 1998 at 17:27:53 (EDT) ______________Mike -:- Thanks -:- Tues, Jul 28, 1998 at 18:23:00 (EDT) ____Keith -:- milk-toast -:- Mon, Jul 27, 1998 at 22:00:03 (EDT) ______Mike -:- milk-toast -:- Tues, Jul 28, 1998 at 13:12:33 (EDT) __Jerry -:- Kick my butt -:- Mon, Jul 27, 1998 at 20:34:53 (EDT) ____Jerry -:- Typo... embarrassing -:- Mon, Jul 27, 1998 at 20:43:46 (EDT) ____Keith -:- FUN -:- Mon, Jul 27, 1998 at 21:01:49 (EDT) ______Jim -:- Too much fun for me -:- Mon, Jul 27, 1998 at 22:07:35 (EDT) Complaint Generator -:- Prem Pal -:- Mon, Jul 27, 1998 at 01:09:13 (EDT) __You too can be -:- this verbose -:- Mon, Jul 27, 1998 at 01:12:51 (EDT) ____beeb -:- Rawat-ism -:- Mon, Jul 27, 1998 at 01:41:22 (EDT) ____Sir David -:- Finally caught on. ha ha ha -:- Mon, Jul 27, 1998 at 09:03:43 (EDT) ______G's mom -:- ROTFLOL -:- Mon, Jul 27, 1998 at 11:18:45 (EDT) ______beeb -:- Finally caught on. ha ha ha -:- Mon, Jul 27, 1998 at 17:54:42 (EDT) __Carol -:- Lights, camera, action -:- Mon, Jul 27, 1998 at 11:54:02 (EDT) ____Bill Cooper -:- There is more, -:- Mon, Jul 27, 1998 at 15:56:34 (EDT) ______Keith -:- complaint mind fucker -:- Mon, Jul 27, 1998 at 19:10:21 (EDT) ________Mickey the Pharisee -:- complaint mind fucker -:- Mon, Jul 27, 1998 at 19:17:16 (EDT) __________Keith -:- complaint mind fucker -:- Mon, Jul 27, 1998 at 19:34:19 (EDT) __________g's mom -:- no he used it in the next post -:- Mon, Jul 27, 1998 at 19:34:40 (EDT) __________Gail -:- complaint mind fucker -:- Mon, Jul 27, 1998 at 21:40:10 (EDT) ____________Mickey the Pharisee -:- complaint mind f***** -:- Mon, Jul 27, 1998 at 21:50:43 (EDT) ______________Gail -:- complaint mind f***** -:- Tues, Jul 28, 1998 at 00:26:39 (EDT) ________Gail -:- Who ate all the red off your -:- Mon, Jul 27, 1998 at 20:50:50 (EDT) __________Keith -:- Who ate all the red off your -:- Mon, Jul 27, 1998 at 21:06:39 (EDT) ____________Gail -:- Who ate all the red off your -:- Mon, Jul 27, 1998 at 21:12:39 (EDT) ______________Keith -:- Who ate all the red off your -:- Mon, Jul 27, 1998 at 21:24:28 (EDT) __________Peter -:- Who ate all the red off your -:- Mon, Jul 27, 1998 at 22:35:23 (EDT) ____________VP -:- Peter, here we say... -:- Mon, Jul 27, 1998 at 23:11:55 (EDT) ______________RT -:- On Earth, here we say... -:- Tues, Jul 28, 1998 at 13:58:55 (EDT) ________________VP -:- Mars in Scorpio -:- Tues, Jul 28, 1998 at 16:21:13 (EDT) ________________Gail -:- You must be an engineer! -:- Tues, Jul 28, 1998 at 19:24:07 (EDT) __________________RT -:- You must be ...lemme guess -:- Wed, Jul 29, 1998 at 12:28:48 (EDT) ____________________Gail -:- You must be ...lemme guess -:- Wed, Jul 29, 1998 at 22:01:16 (EDT) ______________________rt -:- You must be...speechless! -:- Wed, Jul 29, 1998 at 22:25:00 (EDT) ________b.*>* -:- cpu -:- Tues, Jul 28, 1998 at 03:07:45 (EDT) ________Nigel -:- mind-fucked complainant -:- Tues, Jul 28, 1998 at 21:12:15 (EDT) G's mom -:- tell us.... -:- Sun, Jul 26, 1998 at 23:34:40 (EDT) __the unsatisfied -:- my complaint about Jim -:- Mon, Jul 27, 1998 at 01:04:32 (EDT) ____Keith -:- my complaint about Jim -:- Mon, Jul 27, 1998 at 05:10:06 (EDT) ______Jim -:- Just plain silly -:- Mon, Jul 27, 1998 at 10:58:10 (EDT) ______Katie -:- Check this out -:- Mon, Jul 27, 1998 at 11:48:14 (EDT) ________Carol -:- Check this out -:- Mon, Jul 27, 1998 at 11:57:22 (EDT) ________Robyn -:- Check this out -:- Mon, Jul 27, 1998 at 12:17:38 (EDT) __________Robyn -:- a clarification -:- Mon, Jul 27, 1998 at 12:19:09 (EDT) ______g's mom -:- your complaints about Jim -:- Mon, Jul 27, 1998 at 15:28:05 (EDT) ____Sir David -:- my complaint about Jim -:- Mon, Jul 27, 1998 at 07:10:17 (EDT) ______Sir David -:- Sorry, I couldn't resist this -:- Mon, Jul 27, 1998 at 09:31:15 (EDT) ________Gerry -:- The Heller Watch--Field Report -:- Mon, Jul 27, 1998 at 10:58:54 (EDT) __________Katie -:- The Heller Watch--Field Report -:- Mon, Jul 27, 1998 at 11:42:22 (EDT) __________Robyn -:- The Heller Watch--Field Report -:- Mon, Jul 27, 1998 at 12:32:35 (EDT) __________g's mom -:- The Heller Watch--Field Report -:- Mon, Jul 27, 1998 at 15:26:46 (EDT) __________Jerry -:- The Heller Watch--Field Report -:- Mon, Jul 27, 1998 at 16:17:13 (EDT) ____________A Fan -:- To Mr. Heller -:- Mon, Jul 27, 1998 at 21:23:51 (EDT) ______________Keith -:- To Mr. Heller -:- Mon, Jul 27, 1998 at 21:29:14 (EDT) ________________Becky -:- Jim's mission -:- Tues, Jul 28, 1998 at 08:28:48 (EDT) __________________Gerry -:- Armchair psychology -:- Tues, Jul 28, 1998 at 12:04:39 (EDT) __________________Jim -:- Psychobabble Generator -:- Tues, Jul 28, 1998 at 18:36:31 (EDT) ____________________Becky -:- Psychobabble Generator -:- Wed, Jul 29, 1998 at 08:37:36 (EDT) ______________________Jim -:- Psychobabble Generator -:- Wed, Jul 29, 1998 at 11:06:24 (EDT) ________________________Jim -:- Becky, check this out -:- Wed, Jul 29, 1998 at 15:40:20 (EDT) __________________________Becky -:- Jim, see rational mind post -:- Thurs, Jul 30, 1998 at 08:29:26 (EDT) ______________Bobby -:- To Mr. Heller -:- Tues, Jul 28, 1998 at 12:06:08 (EDT) ________________Gerry -:- To Mr. Heller -:- Tues, Jul 28, 1998 at 12:17:14 (EDT) __________________VP -:- RIP- Jim debate -:- Tues, Jul 28, 1998 at 16:52:51 (EDT) ____________________Jim -:- But Veep, we've just started -:- Tues, Jul 28, 1998 at 18:03:39 (EDT) ______________________Rick -:- The Shame of it All -:- Tues, Jul 28, 1998 at 18:24:05 (EDT) ________________________Mike -:- The Shame of it All -:- Tues, Jul 28, 1998 at 18:35:08 (EDT) __________________________Jim -:- The Shame of it All -:- Tues, Jul 28, 1998 at 18:52:14 (EDT) __________________________bb -:- The Shame of it All -:- Wed, Jul 29, 1998 at 05:17:35 (EDT) ______________________bb -:- But Veep, we've just started -:- Wed, Jul 29, 1998 at 05:27:32 (EDT) |
Date: Tues, Jul 28, 1998 at 07:12:17 (EDT)
From: Keith Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Love Message: I do not know in some definitive way what love is. But I do know there is an experience inside of me that is like what I imagine love to be like. And after the sharp-edged histrionics of the last few threads I've contributed to , I suddenly began to feel that part of me that feels 'that feeling'...that old black magic... that new age old age ancient feeling that defies rigid classifications and yet can melt the hearts of even the most stoic of logicians. Really it is silly or at least short-sighted to dump all new age sentiments into the basket of the emotionally impaired , spiritually gooey , bubbleheaded , lost in space, space cadets. This is what prevents that 'feeling' from being felt. Too much intellectual defensive-aggresive (s and m) I'm right and you're a goofball type mentality. What really happened back then that turned us into victims seeking revenge? Love is not a dirty word. Love is a word-symbol that points to a feeling that is very real. Love is a challenge to open ones heart and mind and invite a stranger into the abode one called ones own , and yet by allowing another in , ones vista enlarges ; ones personal space transforms ; it's time for me to enter once again that mystic realm where I can feel as well as think ; and this that I speak of is as old as the hills. There is such a divine song within the heart of every soul ; just watch the children at play ; even in the sobs of a child there is such a wonderfully alive and fragile soul ; and Bill ** , if you are reading this ; I can only say about vulnerability , that it is also a feeling ; a sense of ones delicateness ; ones inner sensitivity , that we have learnt to hide from each other and even from our own selves. It is knowing that deep down I'm a gentle ,loving , caring soul and so are you. The game we play is a part of a long historical saga. A saga that has contained a thousand hurts , rejections , embarrassments , failures ; and yet still we seek that which we know is the glory of glory ; and once touched by the magic of 'THAT' one cannot turn ones back and pretend it's an illusion ; not without splitting oneself into a consciousness and an unconsciousness. In so far as Maharaji has (as so many others have) tried to remind people of this he is to be thanked , not condemned. In so far as he has over-evaluated his role and/or his influence has damaged those who he helped to mislead , he is to be held accountable. But to only see black where there is also white is called tunnel vision. I am not ashamed to try and personify a voice of balance ; love , for me is a great and abiding motivation. I love humour too and especially the type of humour that can laugh at itself. But all things in their own season. This has been my more serious feeling self needing to express itself. Thank God for multi-dimensionality! Keith Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 28, 1998 at 09:23:25 (EDT)
From: Victoria Email: None To: Keith Subject: Devotional Love Message: Dear Keith, This topic interests me very much because it is exactly what I am dealing with right now. I recently had a talk (or tried to) with an old premie friend of mine about how I thought Maharaji screwed up my loving stuff. It's because, when I think of the before and after, before was balanced and after ... well I just go too far ... way too far. And my friend says, well, yes, devotion is the highest form of loving. Only when my children were infants did I feel right about what was in my heart. I was so happy to be a new mom because these tiny dependent creatures needed my devotion and deserved it. I was like a god to them, providing for and anticipating their needs. We lost ourselves in blissfull breast-feeding, the ultimate giving of my body, which I kept pure for this reason. But every other time I have gone for the feeling versus the thinking, I've screwed up, myself and others...gone too far...and even now that my children are older...devotion only spoils them, hurts them in the end. It's hard to have more than one master. The second child compromised my feelings, conflicted me. I used to feel that if you could be sure that you could get in and get out, everyone should have an experience with Maharaji or someone like him. I don't feel that way anymore. I think he influenced what I had inside me in a negative way, perverted it to the point where I'm afraid to allow myself those feelings since they always get so out of control. I've read recently some of Thomas Moore's books and some of the Conversations with God and I like better the Skeptic stuff on the net. I don't need the opening, surrender, unconditional love stuff, what I need is a way to put the brakes on once those feelings emerge. How do you go that magical place without giving away too much of yourself, even the last piece? In the end, I always come up with, well, I just want to be a good person, well-intentioned, not harmfull -- if possible. I don't want to be a saint and I don't care to deal with the mystical stuff. I have a mind and a body in addition to my soul and I believe I am created to develop each part and try to integrate and balance, as you say. But how does one keep an open heart without letting in all kinds of damaging repercussions???? Maybe if I could find the book that acknowledges and instructs the spirit side without urging me toward total surrender...how to open up 'again' that is, when opening has caused so much pain to myself and others... Still working on it. Victoria Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 28, 1998 at 10:41:45 (EDT)
From: Mark Email: Apple4256@aol.com To: Victoria Subject: Devotional Love Message: i personally went thru that and those feelings plague me from time to time. My Rx suggestions follow : luckily it so happens that those that have a need to experience love without disempowerment can do so first of all by accepting that that can happen-real important! (then leaving M becomes the emptying of the cup, so more can be added). And thats also why our tendency for sentimentality re: M ( at least during the transition stage ) must go. Because the energy of the universe broadcasts only where there is space for it and whatever frequency M does his thing on ALLOWS NO HIGHER FREQUENCY so in order to get what you want, you must move away Then like ET, call home. Thank the universe for sending what you need to play at the next level.In Advance. You've ordered now. Relax. Your next dance is coming. There are beautiful serene nourishing and embracing levels of consciousness that sponsor existence. Intro Kriya(knowledge)touches that So does conscious out of body travel So do genuine Higher Self alignments Abraham Hicks Perelandra's work with the White Brotherhood Co-creative science and the giant vegetables So does Zazen Irish FolkDancing Jimi Hendrix Romantic Sex & So does GENUINELY ASKING FOR MORE cause you are more than techniques ! at the best Kriya is window wash. . . especially cause if you really ask the level of creator you can handle appears Someone of M's level showed up because at that level that's all we could wish up. Many of us- THANK GOODNESS- wanted more now its popcorn time the frequency has heated up SO WHEN YOU SUMMON the next stage ( and don't forget to thank the highest power in advance) ask for more And Promise never to give your power away again Devotional love is great 'i give you my all' so in you it will mellow. . .' Well now that you located your 'all' take it back from the false Messiah AND USE lT ! its your navigational tool in the universe ! Stay in love and keep asking for more what's waiting next for you will make the M devotion seem like Elementary School ( or detention ) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 28, 1998 at 14:13:55 (EDT)
From: RT Email: ommmmm To: Mark Subject: Parting is such sweet swallow. Message: GULP! Loved it, Mark! Site on, man. RT Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 28, 1998 at 19:14:36 (EDT)
From: Gail Email: None To: Mark Subject: Devotional Love Message: Do you really know this to be true? I am still having these internal rushes (that I attributed to the cult trip). I think I am still responding to things like a conditioned dog. I watched a new video last night called 'Connections.' It is a disgusting display of devotion by some African premies and Bobby the cook toward MJ. MJ in turn gets even more blasted. There is a music video called 'Magic of Love' from this same incident. He milks every devotional situation like this for three or four videos. He has to get the premies to pay and pay for the priceless moments. The whole thing shows you how to behave around MJ (like a mindless gopi). In the music video 'Spread this K' his hand leafs through his poetry to 'I Am There' by Prem Rawat three separate times. He is trying to tell us that he is always there. I used to feel love before MJ, too. It was more like, I love you, mun. What's to eat? I love you, friend. What do you want to do today? I love you, boyfriend. Want to kiss? There was none of this stoned, zombie, heart-orgasm stuff I've come to believe is love. This is all nonsense. I still experience this horse-s--- when I watch those videos. I have to keep watching them, though. I need to find out what videos he says 'No Goal Setting' and 'Having pets is dumb.' Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 28, 1998 at 20:09:29 (EDT)
From: Katie Email: None To: Gail Subject: Video Love Message: Hi Gail - I STILL have conditioned responses to videos and it's been 20 years since I've seen M (and I didn't think about him much for those 20 years). We ARE and WERE conditioned, that's for sure. It is sort of like listening to certain old record albums for me - I remember what I felt like at the time and get that 'feeling'. My husband was never a premie and doesn't have the same reaction, so I don't think it's anything in the videos (like subliminals). I hope not anyway. Take care, Katie P.S. I REALLY don't think you should watch the videos if it's hard for you. You have been through a lot in the past few months. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 28, 1998 at 20:52:57 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Gail Subject: That's easy, Gail Message: I need to find out what videos he says 'No Goal Setting' and 'Having pets is dumb.' Gail, according to the Visions International catalogue Veep just sent me they're on page 4 and listed as follows: No Goal Setting - VIV369 - candid shots of Maharaji taking a call while eating breakfast, masticating freely, gesticulating casually ('Anne, a little more juice?') and telling an unidentified premie during the call not to bother doing something or other. The task is undefined as Maharaji is careful to demonstrate the universality of the human condition. Indeed, as Maharaji explains the futlity of the undescribed project, he leafs through the L.A. Times, apparently bored with the hustle and bustle of yet another day in the world. The camera closes in on him just as he finishes his juice and he burps ever so slightly. He hangs up and for a few moments there's an interchange of love between him and Daya. She asks who that was on the phone and he ignores her, as if to show, once again, what really matters. She reaches for a part of the paper and he gives it to her without hesitation. This video is 6 minutes long. Price $29.95. Having Pets is Dumb - VIV 370 - In this video Maharaji walks into the living room only to find that the dog has poo poo'd on his favorite shirt, a shir Maharaji had only dropped on the fllor that very morning. At first he expresses his love to Anne for not picking it up earlier and she demurs, explaining that she just didn't see it. Maharaji then tursn directly to the camera and explains more clearly than ever before that sometimes he thinks having pets is plain dumb. He says this clearly and with conviction. He does not smile but instead describes the problems he's had with dogs chasing deer in the hills around his house. One feels the empathy the master has for his premies, living in this form amidsts us as he does. This video is 4 minutes long. Price $29.95. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jul 29, 1998 at 12:48:21 (EDT)
From: John Email: None To: Jim Subject: Hey I agree! Message: Well, I do concur with the former ex-Lord and Krishna impersonator that pets are dumb. At least having a dog is dumb. Cats are cool. At least keeping dogs in the house is dumb. Most dogs belong outside. How is the first video an example of M saying to not set goals? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jul 29, 1998 at 14:43:38 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: Jim Subject: Humor Message: Now THAT'S hilarious! You guys have got stop all this humor; the folks here at work are beginning to think I'm crazy!!! :-) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 28, 1998 at 15:05:16 (EDT)
From: david m Email: whaler32@aol.com To: Victoria Subject: Devotional Love Message: victoria......what your saying sounds alot like what ive been feeling for 15 years on and off.. i think because what we gave to M and DLM [in my case] i trusted it all so very very much. i knew that this was what life was all about.love devotion,peace...and then to find out that it was just another con . [everybody warned me] my heart was truly broken and in a way still is .sure life goes on new family kids ect.. but the trusting thing giving 100% of yourself is still very hard to do and i hope with more time and good experiences it will all finish up ok .i hope you too and all the other friends we made it all goes good for them too ....this forum has helped me a great deal in the last few months...so thanks jim and keep up the good work... good luck!!!!!!! peace and lovet Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 28, 1998 at 15:33:48 (EDT)
From: John Email: None To: Victoria Subject: Just a few thoughts Message: Victoria: Your friend states that 'devotion is the highest form of loving'. I beg to differ! And anyway where did she learn that? Let me guess, from a guru demanding devotion? My wife said something interesting the other day. We were driving back from the beach and we were passing church after church advertising their 'worship services' and she asked why do we have to worship God? Does God really want our 'worship'? Which got me to thinking that if I were God, (and of course I am, but that's another story) and if all I wanted was creatures to worship me, then wouldn't I have created nice simple dumb creatures programmed to worship me? Human beings are hardly simple, we are very complex. I really don't see any evidence that I was created to worship blindly some creature claiming to have divine powers. Whether that creature is alive now or lived 2,000 years ago. And regarding the highest form of loving, I think it's having to live with someone day in and day out and still love them, THAT'S hard to do. Blind devotion or worshipping someone from afar is a piece of cake. You never have to really get to know them, etc. Seriously now, how can that be the highest form of loving? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 28, 1998 at 16:13:18 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: John Subject: Just a few thoughts Message: GOOOOOOD POINT John! Remaining 'devoted' and totally loving to your significant other(s) is the highest form, in my opinion. It's up-close and personal; AND it takes REAL work and REAL sacrifice to make it go. It 'may' seem REAL hard at times, but it's worth every bit of effort because you are dealing with a person who REALLY loves you back! At least, that's MY opinion.... :-) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 28, 1998 at 17:25:27 (EDT)
From: John Email: None To: Mike Subject: Just a few thoughts Message: Mike: Hey, you really like those capital letters don't you? It's interesting because I cannot imagine what in the world is attractive about loving someone who you don't interact with. I mean, what kind of love is it? I think it's called 'imaginary' love. I know, I'm deluded by worldly things, right? -drowned in the maya in '82, thank God! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 28, 1998 at 18:09:53 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: John Subject: Just a few thoughts Message: YEAH I LIKE CAPITALS, WHAT's it to ya????? Just kiddin' of course. I agree... How can you love a concept? I, too must me in my mind (thank you thank you thank you!) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 28, 1998 at 23:19:40 (EDT)
From: Peter Email: None To: John Subject: that's easy Message: It's interesting because I cannot imagine what in the world is attractive about loving someone who you don't interact with. It's very safe. I remember learning how to do it in sixth grade. Her name was Colleen and she had this burnt orange knit polyester pantsuit that just drove me crazy. It took me a lot longer to discover the attraction of loving someone who you do interact with. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 28, 1998 at 17:47:26 (EDT)
From: Mickey the Pharisee Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net To: John Subject: Just a few thoughts Message: 'No one can have greater love than to lay down one's life for one's friends.' attributed to J the C in John's gospel. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 28, 1998 at 17:40:55 (EDT)
From: Keith Email: None To: Victoria Subject: Devotional Love Message: Dear Victoria , I wish you well with this struggle. You asked , 'How do you go that magical place without giving away too much of yourself, even the last piece? ' It's a difficult balance. And part of the difficulty is that balance is not static ; it's always a fresh need to re-balance in response to lifes unpredictabilities . But to take an extreme position ; extreme anti-love or extreme over devotional love , is for me , a cop out. I believe that the struggle between opposite poles is a part of human existence itself. And yet the conscious mind can mediate via reflection on past experience and better integrate these opposite poles. I feel like a ship that keels now this way , now that way , according to internal and external shifts in the tides. Thankyou for your honest and intelligent post ; I appreciate your 'tone'. And Victoria I hope you can learn and grow in trusting your own freedoms and limits ; as that is what the struggle is mostly about in my view. Regards , Keith PS ; One last thought Victoria ; I have found very few people who I can trust and who I can trust myself with , in regards to under giving or over giving of myself . But as I get older I feel clearer about this and especially value those few friends who I can give myself too without negative repurcussions. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 30, 1998 at 08:28:06 (EDT)
From: Becky Email: None To: Keith Subject: Devotional Love Message: what you seem to be talking about is duality, poles. Isn't knowledge supposed to take you away from that duality? (Ref. what Maharaji said Wembley 1998). M is against duality. Swaying like a ship on the ocean sounds pretty unstable to me. personally, I am like a bird that flies with joy in the sun. And that feeling does not come from Knowledge or maharaji. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 28, 1998 at 09:43:27 (EDT)
From: Jerry Email: None To: Keith Subject: Love Message: I do not know in some definitive way what love is. Love is a tickle around the heart you can't scratch. Or so says some Irish lass I once knew. But I do know there is an experience inside of me that is like what I imagine love to be like. Now this is interesting. You state we should give Maharaji credit where credit is due. Even he knows love is beyond imagination. He's said it dozens of times. But so what. So have millions of others. Love is not a dirty word. Love is a word-symbol that points to a feeling that is very real. Love is a challenge to open ones heart and mind and invite a stranger into the abode one called ones own , and yet by... Pleeeaaazzze, Keith. Have you found a site called the Love Generator you haven't told us about? It is knowing that deep down I'm a gentle ,loving , caring soul and so are you. This I don't doubt. But I think you, like me, might need more love than we can give. We are deeply wounded souls, after all. Emptiness abounds us. In so far as Maharaji has (as so many others have) tried to remind people of this he is to be thanked... Why should I thank someone I've never even met? love , for me is a great and abiding motivation. You don't know shit about love outside of what you imagine it to be. That's not love. Sorry if I'm hitting somewhat hard here, Keith, but you've been on a tear for 2 days now (Jim's fault maybe) and I can't say you've said much of substance yet. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 28, 1998 at 11:42:38 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: Keith Subject: Love Message: Once again you at attribute something to M that HE CANNOT AFFECT! What YOU FEEL is what YOU FEEL. I don't think anyone here is denying that YOU feel something. What I ABSOLUTELY DENY is that M had ANYTHING to do with it! He didn't teach you a damn thing! Don't you get it? I'll say it again in bold... HE DIDN'T GIVE OR REVEAL ANYTHING TO YOU! YOU had it all along, you meditate on it, you discover whatever it is and YOU are the one to thank... THANK YOURSELF, not M. (You know, it really is ok to thank yourself) To attribute ANY MYSTICAL powers to M is to recreate the MYTH that he is somehow SPECIAL! The only thing special about him is that he LIES so effectively. Was that CLEAR ENOUGH? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 28, 1998 at 13:34:21 (EDT)
From: Carol Email: None To: Keith Subject: Love Message: Keith, I just want to say that I believe you are sincere and are a loving human being. No one needs to agree with you for you to know you are loved/worthy of love/and have a basic core of love within you. Did you see Forest Gump? I love that movie! The Forest character was so good and loving and consistent and he transformed the lives of those around him. He helped turn that bitter Major Dan into a new man by simply being true to his own accepting and loving nature. Hope your day is full and you get to experience that which you desire! Carol Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 28, 1998 at 14:00:49 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Carol Subject: Yes, Carol, exactly Message: Did you see Forest Gump? I love that movie! The Forest character was so good and loving and consistent and he transformed the lives of those around him. Carol, I agree that Forrest Gump is probably the most fully developed fictional character of all time. I, too, when encountered with difficult people or situations, like to ask myself, 'what would Forrest Gump do here?' It used to be Jonathan Livingston Seagull (don't you just LOVE that soundtrack? I still can't get it out of my head!). Before that it was Shirley Temple movies. Then there was Flipper. I even flirted with the great Celestine Prophecies for a while (wow!). But that was all BEFORE I saw the move that really changed my life. I just wonder, though, do you think the great Gump would have tried to trick everyone into thinking that he was speaking on behalf of a lot of people when really that wasn't the case at all? Yes, that's a really good question, isn't it? Sweetness and love, sugar and spice to you! Jim Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jul 29, 1998 at 16:49:28 (EDT)
From: Carol Email: None To: Jim Subject: Yes, Carol, exactly Message: Forest, by his nature, was incapable of being tricky or sarcastic and he was humble and knew he had limits to his understanding. Also, he didn't let the things he didn't understand be a hindrance to his life. He's a great role model even if he's a fictional character! I also loved Shirley Temple and Lassie and Atticus from To Kill a Mockingbird. I'm not all sweetness and light in my likes... I like Steven King books and movies like Pulp Fiction and Natural Born Killers. I also saw Saving Private Ryan yesterday with my mom. It was a good slice-of-life war movie in my opinion, which is limited by my never having had the experience! It shows you a lot,but being a movie, it is nothing like the experience had to have been! My mom expected to be crying from it, but she didn't and neither did I. carol Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 28, 1998 at 14:55:10 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: Carol Subject: Love Message: Carol: You have a VERY nice way of saying it. I noticed the conspicuous absence of any thought that M had anything to do with Keith's basic nature. That is exactly what I was trying to tell him. He still attributes those things that are good about himself to someone (M) that didn't and doesn't have anything to do with it (and therefore doesn't deserve any credit). Although Forrest Gump was a movie, the lessons it portrays are germaine to this discussion. ANYONE can be good, and goodness naturally spreads. Witness the simple act of kindness while driving; the act of telling someone that you love them; any kindness shown to anyone. These are normally returned and/or passed on... AND a whole lot of people have a great day because of a little kindness; A PERSONAL decision to be 'kind' for a moment. This is NOT something that was 'revealed' to you or 'given' to you by anyone. This is INATE and NATURAL 'knowledge.' We didn't 'receive' anything from M that caused us to do what is already NATURAL. As to the 'grey area' discussion about M. I see only black & white on this issue because we are talking about LIES. LIES beget LIES. Truth cannot come from a LIE. A liar isn't truthful, nor can he be, as long as he continues to lie. This isn't a grey area. There aren't levels-of-lying. 'Oh it's just a harmless untruth.' BULL... a lie is a lie. I can't trust anyone that lies, gets caught, and continues to lie the same lie, anyway. As I have said before, the act of omission is also a lie. Not telling the premies to stop calling him g_d is an act of omission (and a VERY dangerous one). I know, I sound like a broken record sometimes ;-) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 28, 1998 at 15:39:52 (EDT)
From: Nigel Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: Keith Subject: You're doing it again, Keith.. Message: I suddenly began to feel that part of me that feels 'that feeling'...that old black magic... that new age old age ancient feeling that defies rigid classifications and yet can melt the hearts of even the most stoic of logicians. Hi, Keith, Remember my 'Courtesey, Ridicule & Belief' thread of a week or two back? I remember you saying you agreed with me - with 'every word', in fact. But here you are carrying on in exactly the same mode as the type of post I was objecting to back then. Love is not an attribute/experience exclusively reserved for people with a warm and fuzzy mystical world view. It has nothing to do with 'new age' or 'ancient wisdom'. Love is whatever it is. Love and logic serve different functions. I choose logic/science/rationality to explain the universe to me. Whatever love may be, it explains nothing. Likewise I would tend not to apply logic to the task of comforting a six-month old infant. One of the more corrupt manifestations of trying to use love to explain the universe is devotional premie-think - or what Selena called 'toxic thinking'. Rationality is abandoned in favour of accepting the blinkered, poisonous Master/devotee relationship as the Ultimate Reality. ...yet [Love] can melt the hearts of even the most stoic of logicians. You made no explicit attack in this post, but your choice of words seems to reveal a sense of personal superiority; the sort of attititude you manage to see in the posts of others, and complain about. So why 'logicians', specifically, Keith? Regards, Nigel Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 30, 1998 at 08:24:47 (EDT)
From: Becky Email: None To: Keith Subject: Imagined Love? Message: Keith, I thought the whole thing about Knowledge was that it generates a feeling that you know rather than imagine. Maharaji scoffs at the imagination, and at the mind. I realised that I have always felt that love, and known it was there, without Daddy Maharaji having to tell me about it. In fact, what i feel is none of his damn business. If that love is real in you, then why not try not listening to Maharaji for a few months/years, and see if you can still feel it? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 27, 1998 at 22:56:40 (EDT)
From: Mark Email: Apple4256@aol.com To: Everyone Subject: The Forum Message: My son and I were trying to get a hammer out of a drawer this morning. It had wedged itself in, amongst the various other items in the drawer. We both spent time and epidermis trying to extract it. Suddenly I got the idea to take the other items out of the drawer, and create room so the hammer could have the room to move. It was a great idea-but it didn't work. Suddenly, my son pulled the drawer out ABOVE the one the hammer was in, reached down, and pulled it out. Common sense is uncommon,someone once said. This forum is that open drawer above. This forum is dictating the agenda of Maharaji's activities. His armor has been publically pierced, and he knows it.Here's a guy who has structured his life, since the Millenium Fiasco, so that his actions are not the subject of public discussion. And yet here, every level of his philosophy, management style, taste in housing,libation, women,self-presentation and self-denial are prominently discussed.And every premie I know is aware of this forum. They diss it, but they are wrestling privately with its contents, and recalibrating their belief systems to include wider personal options .Premies, even loyal ones, are distancing themselves from Maharaji's personal tastes, behaviors and lifestyles-(even tho his most outrageous actions are not yet common knowledge.) Premies, used to changing their mindset as Maharaji changed his, are now having to deal with bonafide 'disturbances in the force'-Shri Maharaji being a freelancer ( no lineage), the Knowledge techniques being offered by a host of other teachers,other teachers capturing the public's current fascination much more than their savior. If this were chess, you would almost say that the King is just down to a few pawns, and going into an extended end-game . . . I just had a chance to speak to a group of 'premies' in europe, and the coolness there to M was shocking 'He does his thing, I do mine 'Its sort of a bland neither here nor there thing to most . Something people do along with yoga or jogging , you know like a pleasant hobby. . .so different from even 5 years ago ! As for M,He now says 'he has enemies.' He is privately considering retiring.( He may very well just go retire on the land in Australia with the remaining faithful) Maybe change his name(how about Koresh?) THE FORUM DOES MAKE A DIFFERENCE there's squabbling about who says what or how heavy or lite some people are who post here. DONT FORGET THE MEDIUM HERE IS THE MESSAGE That there's something very WEIRD in 'Maharaji's world'- and its Maharaji ! ITS NOT Premies- for not fitting in , feeling conflicted, or not following the party line or belief. . . .A lot of the rank and filers are getting the courage to begin to consider a life NOT centered around a guy that can't find peace, without publically playing some version of 'the Superior Power in Person.' And believe me, whether its this Forum, or the turning of the ages, or whatever, this Rawat balloon is losing air, and rapidly. Among the faithful . . . IMHO By definition an 'ex' 'post'or 'anti' site will produce cartoonish simplicity in its users.The consensus of its users is AGAINST something, not FOR something. For example , I personally know RT and Anon (capital A Anon, that is) and to me they are not nearly as comic or serious as they respectively present themselves to be here. Which seems OK, as each person here is aiming at 'Pulling Out the Next Drawer Up' and poking some sort of hole in M's bag of tricks.( which both have done beautifully, in my opinion) not demonstrate their entire personality range.Which is, I think, the purpose of this site, and its ultimate value- ALLOWING PEOPLE THE SPACE TO GET THEIR POWER BACK- AND MOVE ON FROM THIS BAKTI CUL-DE-SAC. While each of us is concerned with what we say, the main value of this FORUM is that it is said! and that people are free to say their thing. And we all have differing opinions on what's next . Which we do. All of us. And its always healthy to realize there's somebody agreeing with and hating every post on here. But as we agree and disagree, we are actually blasting out of a narrower mindset.This FORUM is much bigger than anyone , or potential group mindset in this.There is a collective energy to this site, and it- almost independant of us - does its work.Freedom work.Radio Free Brindaban.Broadcasting Beyond Belief, offshore. . . However, when people start 'ragging' on each other's Cyber Personnas it gets a bit wierd, and I find myself asking what's the real motivation. This is definitely a Shiva site. A lot of heavy conceptual hypocrasy is being held up to the light, and excavated. As it must. We all swallowed a lot of shit.And M must be fully purged, before we can truly proceed.I don't think any post-M activity consensus will ever be achieved. Or should it. Our agreement is that M is not what he continues to present himself to be.And that's the level that this Forum takes on its true Voice.That's its alpha and omega. This is not an ashram. You don't need anyone's permission to speak.And if you're asking permission, don't blame anyone but your ex or current Lord.Believe me, there's no one more valuable than you in the entire creation. Mark Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 27, 1998 at 23:40:47 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Mark Subject: The Forum Message: Really well said, Mark. Really. By the way, is this: even tho his most outrageous actions are not yet common knowledge speculation? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 28, 1998 at 02:04:28 (EDT)
From: bb Email: None To: Mark Subject: The Forum Message: The reason the truth still needs to come fully out is that the belief system can take hold and spread in those 90 countries and I ask you to look at jesus as an example. The guy paul was not even someone who even met jesus I think, Mickey can confirm or clearly say exactly the story. One zealot armed with selected videos can march through the countryside and build the religion. paul actually built christianity and the jews in jerusalum did a good job of wipeing out the followers there. Without paul,it's unlikely that we would be in a christian west. As nuts as buddha actually was, his follower that actually gave the religion it's initial direction did so after buddha died and could no longer be the head idiot. His follower cast the religion as a bhakti cult to the the now dead diety in the buddha imagination of acended godheads. The mormon guy that lied and said he found and then 'lost' golden tablets that told him about this white man culture that ruled in america with castles and armies and had roads and a civilization and a population made up of early christians that migrated from isreal in the first century or something like that. His follower was the one that actually built the religion and now, without so much as a campfire worth of ashes as a archiological record of this supposid 'civilization', we have about 11 million of them in this country. Beliveing a total fantasy. Demanding respect and wanting our acceptance and adherance. Of course the list of lunacy is endless. I'll give one more example that sort of shows what a hindu guru trip looks like years later. Guru nanak got people to believe he was more than them. Naturally as hindu's, this whole 'lineage' thing kicks in and after 10 guru's in a row, the last one says the -book- is the guru now and tells all the followers that in addition to everything else that has been dumped on them, now the have to wear turbans, and have a dagger in it, and not cut thier hair or beard, and numerous other things and now WHO can undo this? These sikhs will be all dressed up with nowhere to go for centuries to come. The maharaji show is not over. All the facts need to come out while those that can tell them are alive. The crown and Mala and video's and numerous other props are waiting for revisionist devotees to take and present as evidence of truth and since the center was not actually that way, it is our responsibility to state the facts for those that want to know so they can make a clear-headed assessment. I personally think feeling the breath is a good practice. But to tie a false religion to it as the global saviour, and not be that representative of the origional intelligence, I mean he made quite a show of it, but he has run into the reality that the power is not interested in being falsely represented in this fashion at this time. Of course rawat does not think there is a concious larger power so I don't think he will ever give up his pursuit of his 'i am god' legacy. Missionaries will stream forth out of australia and the job here will not be ended for many years to come. Westerners are peeking in the internet but the larger mass of humanity is not and people in those areas need one place where all the known facts came out, as a resource. To hold back the facts because of some amount of western decline and to think it is perhaps unneeded, is wrong thinking. This is not an interesting scandal, it is the very neccesary telling of the truth and the world asks us to step forward and speak. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 28, 1998 at 02:34:35 (EDT)
From: Keith Email: None To: Mark Subject: The Forum Message: Mark ,I agree with the general sentiment of your post. But I don't see that Maharaji's accountability or moral fibre should be the sole focus of this forum. Who are WE ? His judge and jury . Our motives and self-appointed roles should also be scrutinised. For if the jurors are found wanting themselves it casts a shadow over the judgements. And who among us oh so clever expressionists is beyond a little scrutiny ? But Mark , I agree that this forum does allow for a diverse range of views ; despite my earlier criticisms. My criticisms are triggered in part by what I experience (subjective as it is ) as a tendency for a type of safe group mentality that develops here ; and which reminds me of the elan vital atmosphere , in so far as , those who have criticisms or views that disturb the group 'aura' begin to feel afraid to speak out. Personally I feel that it's sad that about 4 or 5 posters and ex-premies have chosen to share away from this forum to each other , partly because they feel afraid to air such views on this forum. They have not personally told me that that is the reason , but if I'm wrong then I ask them to inform me so. Anyway , I genuinely believe that there is a type of cancer of fear here that is not endemic but should be exposed . I feel that a counter-point to your popular stance is very needed and I will provide that as long as I feel the need. This is not to denounce your good post but to hopefully add some facets . Regards , Keith Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 28, 1998 at 03:10:13 (EDT)
From: Carol Email: coopmtncarol@hotmail.com To: Keith Subject: The Forum Message: You said, 'Personally I feel that it's sad that about 4 or 5 posters and ex-premies have chosen to share away from this forum to each other, partly because they feel afraid to air such views on this forum. They have not personally told me that that is the reason, but if I'm wrong then I ask them to inform me so.' Perhaps the guy who started this other site would like to print the site description here so folks who want to can go there. To speak only for myself, I go to this other site to share with others about things like dreams, and beliefs or exploration of ideas that are somewhat off the subject of this Forum. I have also had the experience of being called (by Jim) a 'new-age bubblehead' for some of my posts (or misinterpretations and judgments about them); and for challenging the manners or ways of communicating which include personal attack and ridicule, I have been called sanctimonious. I can take it, I just don't like it. I also understand that I should not be excluded from challenges to anything I might say or believe about M, because that's what this place is for! Sometimes people are just too quick to judge or jump to conclusions. The namecalling, etc. does not cause FEAR in me, it's more like annoyance or dislike of it. Arguing back and forth about it is also rather boring and takes up space. It is just easier to feel the trust enough to share my personal stories with people who are open to hearing them if there is an agreement among members to be accepting and open to ideas. And I don't like to take up Forum time and space about issues that are not really that relevant to the site. People may disagree about what is relevant to the site. I don't need a spokeperson, as I'm pretty outspoken myself. Sometimes, 'though it's better for me to just let it be. Carol Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 28, 1998 at 03:38:57 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Carol Subject: Right on, Carol! Message: Carol, I really appreciate your post. I guess that's really all. I, too, think it a shame that the forum gets distracted by this kind of shit. Oh well.... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 28, 1998 at 03:51:38 (EDT)
From: Keith Email: None To: Jim Subject: Right on, Carol! Message: Thanks for that shit jim ; ooppps , oh well ; jim , you mangy dog ,you two-faced sycophant ; how dare you appease Carol with one hand and then throw 'shit' on her views with the other . Why in hell(er?)should your shit predominate over anyone elses ? Of course your arrogant response will either tacitly or explicitly be something like , 'how can you compare your mystical shit with my reasoned truths; yuk!!! Jim , as the old cliche goes ; get a life! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 28, 1998 at 04:00:35 (EDT)
From: Keith Email: None To: Jim Subject: Right on, Carol! Message: Jim, I realise on reflection that the shit you might have been referring to might have been this debate itself. If so i appologise even though it is a minor error because you would think of carol's other forum stuff as shit anyway. And if thats what you meant ; I strongly disagree anyway. The issue of what should or should not be expressed on this forum is surely open to ongoing debate and has not been finalised by you . Keith Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 28, 1998 at 06:19:44 (EDT)
From: Richard Email: None To: Keith Subject: Right on, Carol! Message: Hey Keith, Why in hell(er?)should your shit predominate over anyone elses ? Yeah! What about my shit huh! regards Richard Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 28, 1998 at 06:52:40 (EDT)
From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: Carol Subject: The Forum Message: Somehow I can't get concerned either about the 'threat' of some counter-cult forming out of a consensus on the Forum. I live alone and don't view this 'place' as being a 'place' in the first place. How a 'we' can arise out of that, I can't imagine. But some see it and prefer a good apocalyptic threat as exciting. As for Jim calling you a 'new-age bubblehead' - try to be nice to him. He's an old-age bubblehead like me [snicker]. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 28, 1998 at 12:53:56 (EDT)
From: Carol Email: None To: Brian Subject: The Forum Message: Brian, After my initial indignation, I was amused and felt honored to be described as a 'new-age bubblehead'. As for Jim, I am usually kind to him (unless he provokes me or claims to be a spokeperson for me, too) and I value his tenacity for one thing! I hope/expect to meet him in person, since geographically, he's not too far away! I also can't help thinking of every post adding to the gigabytes(?)and being archived, and I cannot really comprehend the numbers of people possibly reading the posts! (Jim, can I go to the Borehead, oops, Bubblehead..er..Boboli, wherever it is you're playing on Labor day?) Carol Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 28, 1998 at 10:50:49 (EDT)
From: Mark Email: None To: Carol Subject: The Forum/ Brian I second it! Message: Carol I agree Brian, somewhere in the Large Print section of the Homepage or Links section there should be a specific listing or other Post Premie links for previous forums Mr Exes site and the site Carol and Keith refer to plus others now extant or to be named Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 28, 1998 at 11:17:08 (EDT)
From: Gerry Email: None To: Carol Subject: The ''other site'' Message: Carol said: Perhaps the guy who started this other site would like to print the site description here so folks who want to can go there. To speak only for myself, I go to this other site to share with others about things like dreams, and beliefs or exploration of ideas that are somewhat off the subject of this Forum. OK, here it is: The purpose of this list is to discuss personal experiences of the paranormal, unexplained or just plain weird things in ours lives without censorship or denigration. All opinions are welcomed and treated with respect here. Please note: Many of the people on this list are former followers of Guru Maharaji, the teenaged guru of the 1970's. A lot of us already know each other from the forum at www.ex-premie.org Although we do not dwell on our past experiences in the cult here (in fact, it's rarely mentioned) it is the thread of shared experience which brought us together. Subscribe to magicalmysterytour Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 28, 1998 at 11:48:58 (EDT)
From: Katie Email: None To: Gerry Subject: The ''other site'' Message: Thank You Gerry! I'd just like to add a few words of explanation about 'the other site'. We had a big argument that was quite similar to these present threads on the Forum about two months ago. Basically, some people wanted to talk about paranormal experiences, but every time they brought them up, other people would argue about the validity of the experiences. I felt, and still feel, that this distracted from the major purpose of the forum. Gerry kindly set up the Magical Mystery Tour listserv to provide a place where people could talk about these things without getting into arguments. As far as I knew, until Keith brought it up yesterday, the people who participate in MMT were pretty happy with that format and didn't feel like they were being left out or discriminated against. I get the feeling that most of the MMT people are still happy with that format and don't feel the need to express their experiences on the forum too. Maybe Keith and Bobby don't feel this way, but I haven't heard from anyone else. Of course, people are welcome to talk about their paranormal experiences or anything else on this Forum, but they will have to take into account that this is an unmoderated forum with very few rules and thus they will be subject to arguments and even attack from people who disagree with them. And, by the way, I'd really repeat that I DON'T think that Jim or anyone else controls the forum's agenda. In my opinion, it is a consensus agenda - people talk about what they want to talk about, or what they feel like talking about. I also think that arguing about the forum's agenda is repetitive, and is not going to change anything. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 28, 1998 at 12:19:32 (EDT)
From: Jerry Email: None To: Katie Subject: The ''other site'' Message: I think having a site where so-called new-agers can speak freely without fear of retribution from those of us less responsive to topics of the paranormal and such is probably an excellent idea. I know myself that I have a tendency to gufaw at new-age ideas and to be outright hostile towards them. It creates an atmosphere of discomfort in both me and the individuals I am hostile towards. I haven't really let loose on this forum (I still feel fairly new and uncertain in this arena) but in time I'm sure I'd make Jim look like a pussycat in my disdain for new-age assumptions. I have a reputation amongst people who know me for being one of the most negative people they've ever met. I of course think I am merely being realistic. I'm not interested in waging battle with anyone on this forum. I don't think that's going to help me with my purpose for being here which is, quite simply, to deprogram myself from the cult and feel free from it. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jul 29, 1998 at 16:56:27 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: Keith Subject: The Forum Message: Keith: You said,'Who are WE ? His judge and jury. Our motives and self-appointed roles should also be scrutinised. For if the jurors are found wanting themselves it casts a shadow over the judgements. And who among us oh so clever expressionists is beyond a little scrutiny?' I say: No judge or jury in this world is perfect, and yet, most of their judgements are fine. Well, so are most of ours about M, I'm sure. As to whether we can take some scrutiny, the answer is: You BET! I think I can speak for some others here, even Jim, on this one by saying we have NEVER called ourselves, or let someone else call us, GOD! 'CASE CLOSED!' Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 28, 1998 at 03:23:14 (EDT)
From: Keith Email: None To: bb Subject: The Forum Message: I read your post Bill with interest. My own view is that you have highlighted an important aspect of the 'negative side ' of the history of spiritual movements and leaders. I do feel as I'm sure David and Mickey would agree , that there is a positive side too . And this refers to Maharaji too. It is not just a matter of so-called accident of birth , (which I don't believe in) nor the fortunes of special upbringing , nor the lineage one is linked to ; but rather the state of consciousness itself , above and beyond all other factors. I'm not suggesting that these finite factors don't play a part ; perhaps even a significant part ; but with or without favoured circumstances (and many reknowned spiritual teachers had very unfavourable early circumstances ) the main issue is about the authenticity of spiritual or mystical experience and understanding . There is no way that Maharaji could have spoken as he has , and be perceived as a total fraud. And I've also perceived expressions in silence that informed me that he is at least authentic on one level. If he is living proof of incompatabilities between the best and worst and whatever may be in between , then so be it ; but to highlight the worst and ignore the rest is to me a projection of ones own multiplicity that like an uncomfortable shadow , follows one around , and leads to extreme exaggerations and over hostile projections onto whoever wears the projected images. But Bill , despite our differance of perception and opinion I'm glad to see you think things out . Unlike some here who just regurgitate the same old tired viewpoints. Regards Keith Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 28, 1998 at 03:42:36 (EDT)
From: Keith Email: None To: Carol Subject: The Forum ; carol Message: Dear Carol , I'm so glad you wrote the above post for a number of reasons. Firstly , I feel you are not alone in the way you feel. But more importantly , because it raises the issue of exactly what should be considered off topic here on this forum. I strongly believe that you and others have unwittingly given in to the very forces of verbal intimidation that I've been trying to confront and expose. You (and btw I did'nt know you were posting on that other forum (Gerry's baby), have every right to air your views on this forum as others like jim do in airing any number of topics only indirectly related to Maharaji. Dreams are an important area to share , for instance. Come on all you more mystical ones ; don't add to the illusion that most ex-premies think like jim and other athiestic types (I truly have no grievance against athiests and skeptics , unless they begin to rule the airwaves.) Whoever came up with the idea that ex-premies are closed to all matters of a metaphysical nature. Jims use of terms like new age bubbleheads , ect , is a reaction of an intellectual coward who bullies and abuses those who experience and understand radically other than he does. I wish no harm to him , but you mystical types or open seekers should have as much respect paid to you as jim expects for himself. SPEAK OUT ! G , P , R , C , B , AND OTHERS. Regards , Keith. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 28, 1998 at 04:17:56 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Keith Subject: Keith's folly Message: Keith, You are really a number fella. First, I just want to clear something. Forget about me and all my vices for a moment. Can you? Huh? Just a moment. We can talk about them again (yawn!) whenever. But I just want to point out that you LIED to everyone here and have so admitted it. Quite frankly, your 'attack' on me makes you look not a little embarrassed and attempting to divert attention from yourself. Keith, you've chosen to make a big issue out of me for some stupid reason. Well, I'm going to point out a few things about you. You first came to this forum one very confused little puppy. Do you remember, Vacol? First of all, you're extremely fortunate that there even IS a place like this. Well there is and you came here. And you came in a very confused state, Keith. I can still taste the incredulous exasperation I felt back then watching you try to think, let alone express, a simple thought. Dude, you were a mess. So what happened? You bounced your ideas off everyone here -- including me -- and, finally, finally, seemed to sift through some of the cult programming we were all love bombed with. As that happened you started dropping your puny facade of strength ('I am Vacol! Let the debate begin!) and started to actually sort some stuff out. You seemed a little humbler, a little more honest, a little clearer. So now Keith, where are you? You find a forum with lots of people of varying views, some like me who've just had it with religion and spirituality and even like to argue about it, some who don't think that way at all, but really just a lot of people united in one common interest: a desire to understand the Maharaji phenomenon and, to the extent that it has or does ensnare us, to work ourselves free. It really seems like you're frustrated taht you don't get the kind of respect you'd like here, isn't that so? You'd LIKE to be able to persuade people that you're wise, profound, maybe even mystical. You seem to have had some sporadic success with certain people here. I get the feeling it's not as much as you want. So what do you do? Instead of simply arguing your views honestly, trying to persuade others to adopt them or maybe even take them seriously, you try something a little different. You LIE to everyone here about who 'sent you' and then try to equate me of all people with the one guy we all actually worshipped without limit. And why? Just because you don't know any other way of advancing your views. Hey, I admit, this is only my impression. Maybe I'm wrong. I doubt it, though. Keith, you say you believe in 'free speech' but I don't think you understand why that's even a cherished principle. It's not so every little idea gets a safe, protected spot on the scoreboard. Far from it. It's so ideas can COMPETE, Keith, so they can compete. You don't want a free forum, you want one that's going to somehow gurantee that your addled brain doesn't get confronted too harshly, that's all. And you're willing to con everyone here, if need be, to get that little place in the sun. God, are you confused! Of course, that's no crime. I'm confused about pretty well everything in life too. But one thing I'm not confused about is knowing that it's wrong to lie to your friends, fella. I think before we go any further, you should forget about me for a sec and deal with the fact that you simply tried to pull the wool over everyones' eyes here. That bears examination, don't you think? Aren't you Vacol, the fearless? You know, an 'unexamined life' and all that? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 28, 1998 at 04:53:08 (EDT)
From: Keith Email: None To: Jim Subject: Keith's folly Message: Lets try and change track Jim. We have a fatal attraction it seems although you will probably say 'you're joking fella , I'm more attacted to a rattle snake than to you.' Jim , isn't this mutual analizing of each other a wee bit tiring ? Remember , you began this by calling me an asshole and a jerk. I simply chose to play tennis with you. But you're now pathetically calling me a liar . Where will it ever stop ? Shall we call truce? Shall we stop competing for 'abuser of the year awards '? I'm sure we both get to express some 'truths' about each other. I'm sure we mirror each other in many uncomfortable ways. Otherwise we would not so intensely step on each others toes. Lets face it ; we both have healthy egos ; to put a kind face on things. We could accept to share this cyberspace ; and this planet. I will offer an olive branch ; but please stop calling the other kids in the school yard by nasty names. Despite what some life-hardened forum -folks think , I believe words can really hurt some people . Did not Maharaji's words really hurt you ; or at least the consequences following on from them? So, jim , what do you say ; did i not detect a reconciliatory tone in your last post? Shall we try and get out of each others hair? Keith Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 28, 1998 at 14:18:01 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Keith Subject: Keith, you are absolutely nuts Message: Lets try and change track Jim. We have a fatal attraction it seems although you will probably say 'you're joking fella , I'm more attacted to a rattle snake than to you.' Keith, You are so full of it I can barely contain myself. What kind of idiocy is this? Before you launched your deceitful and ludicrous broadside, I never even bothered to read your posts let alone answer them. To me, Keith, you were, are and always will be a bit of a waste of time. Premie, ex-premie, it makes no difference. I just don't like you. So your 'fatal attraction' garbage is in your head, bud. Get real. Jim , isn't this mutual analizing of each other a wee bit tiring ? Remember , you began this by calling me an asshole and a jerk. I simply chose to play tennis with you. What the fuck???? What in the world are you talking about? You just started a little baby tantrum here because you weren't getting enough attention or something. But you're now pathetically calling me a liar . Well you ARE, aren't you? Come on, deal with it. You lied to everyone about your role as a representative of 'many'. Your refusal to deal with it speaks volumes. Where will it ever stop ? Shall we call truce? Shall we stop competing for 'abuser of the year awards '? That's simple. You can just go back to doing whatever you're doing, quit lying to people, quit trying to hijack the discussion, and, as far as I'm concerned, quit bugging me. Just fuck off, will ya'? That's the answer, bird brain. I won't bug you, you don't bug me. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 28, 1998 at 11:34:44 (EDT)
From: Gerry Email: None To: Keith Subject: The Forum, The Listserver Message: Keith, It was a really simple task to set up the list server. It took about ten minutes. It is very low maintenance and I think the people on it really enjoy it. Otherwise, they would unsubscribe like several have. We have twenty people there and I feel it serves a purpose, since the stated purposed of this forum is ''everything and anything about Maharaji'' is it not? Anyone here is invited to the list. They know that. If they wanted to discuss the type of things we talk about there, they know where to go. I don't think the existence of the listserver takes away from the forum at all. In fact I think the opposite is true. It's not a matter of being afraid to speak out here. It's just that there is a place for everything and this might not be the place for discussion of the type we have on MMT. And those discussions deserve an outlet too. Why irritate, annoy, challenge or bore people who might not want to discuss MMT type topics. I think it's just good manners and being respectful and considerate of other people, who do not want to hear this type of discussion. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 28, 1998 at 17:18:21 (EDT)
From: Keith Email: None To: Gerry Subject: The Forum, The Listserver Message: Gerry , I respect your view on this. But if what you say is true ; 'It's not a matter of being afraid to speak out here. It's just that there is a place for everything and this might not be the place for discussion of the type we have on MMT. And those discussions deserve an outlet too. Why irritate, annoy, challenge or bore people who might not want to discuss MMT type topics. I think it's just good manners and being respectful and considerate of other people, who do not want to hear this type of discussion.' If it is true that those 'other 'topics are unwanted on this forum , then I for one feel the quality of the forum is greately diminished . I really don't know if what you are saying is true. Firstly , it does not take into account all those who have wanted to participate on this forum but who rarely or never do because a particular narrow range of themes and attitudes are kindly tolerated and others views are lampooned here. Also , I cannot help feel that you are giving into the forces that would have you believe that it is only politically correct to discuss those things and in those ways that are deemed favourable to the unofficial consensus existing here on this forum....and this elitist collective range of acceptable views discusses many topics that have little or nothing to do with Maharaji and his premies. You can quitely go somewhere else with the twenty others who want peaceful co-existence and a sharing without being ridiculed ; and I can understand that , of course , but I feel what that does is leave mostly unchallenged the forum status quo ...and gives a very false impression about ex- premies , how they think as a group , and the types of challenges they deal with in their lives. I therefore disagree with you and all the others here who for one reason or another feel that I'm talking nonsense . But thanks to all those who feel that I have an equal right to express what I want . And if there would be a popular vote on whether forum dwellers felt I'm wasting cyberspace ; I'd still think as I do , but I'd leave it to you guys and move on . Keith Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 28, 1998 at 17:53:06 (EDT)
From: Gerry Email: None To: Keith Subject: The Forum, The Listserver Message: Gosh, Keith I don't know what more to say. It really is no big deal that this listserv exists. Katie said it well when she said there is no restriction on the forum regarding topics for discussion. Try looking at it this way: consider that we (on the listserv) are the elites. Now, there, doesn't that make you feel better? Just because I participate in another forum doesn't mean I have to go away from here quietly. Does it look like that from my recent posts? Maybe it's because I toned down my rhetorical a little. But that's Jim's influence, I guess. This thing about voting on you is silly. I makes you look like you're looking for attention. Why not do your thing and let the chips fall where they may. Stop bitching about the forum and start discussing the things you want to talk about. But maybe complaining about the forum IS your thing. It's beginning to look that way. I think you are blowing this ''group-think'' theory way out of proportion. It exists mainly in your mind. It's more than a little insulting to those of us who take pride in our independence. We had enough of group mania in the cult. Give us a break, will you! Anybody else out there who Keith thinks are too intimidated to speak up: Speak up! We need new voices and new minds. It's everybody's Forum. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 28, 1998 at 19:01:43 (EDT)
From: Keith Email: None To: Gerry Subject: The Forum, The Listserver Message: Yes Gerry, I re-echo your call ; speak up ; speak up you silent ones ; you lurkers ; am I really calling out into empty space? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 30, 1998 at 04:51:37 (EDT)
From: Carol Email: None To: Katie Subject: The Forum:Right On Katie! Message: Katie, I hope no one takes what I say sometimes like I'm trying to preach to them. I'm just getting more specific and open about my beliefs when I state things. I've been called a few things here, like sanctimonious. It's *my* truth and I'm one person who happens to have given up or changed quite a lot of my beliefs. I am open to reading everyone else's posts knowing that someone might have some very valuable message which either supports or challenges my beliefs. Carol Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 30, 1998 at 13:14:18 (EDT)
From: Selena Email: None To: Carol Subject: I think it was 'self-righteous Message: If you are referring to what I called you. And I was screwed up at the time. Angry and confused. And in a reactive mood to anything that resembled the denial and hiding from anger of my premie days. Which just shows that we bounce things off each other for different reasons. anway, it had a positive outcome for both of us. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 30, 1998 at 16:16:39 (EDT)
From: Carol Email: None To: Selena Subject: I think it was 'self-righteous Message: Yeah, but it's no biggie. It was Jim who said 'sanctimonious'. And sometimes I have been. Sometimes I think I'm just as right as I can be! It helps me to know how others feel about the way I express myself. No offense meant and none taken! carol Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 30, 1998 at 13:28:27 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Carol Subject: New age jargon, Carol Message: It's *my* truth This is a REALLY bad abuse of language, Carol. I can't think of a worse one. The whole point about 'truth' is that it exists independent of your, mine or anyone's wishes or beliefs. You don't have a truth. No one does. You might have a belief, an experience, a perspective, a story to tell. But you don't have a truth. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 30, 1998 at 16:19:36 (EDT)
From: Carol Email: None To: Jim Subject: Nitpicking,Jim Message: You understood that I meant personal perspective, so my communication was effective in my opinion. Why do the words themselves matter so much to you? Communication is in context...and you got it! Carol Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 30, 1998 at 16:40:34 (EDT)
From: Mickey the Pharisee Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net To: Carol Subject: Nitpicking,Jim Message: Carol, communication is contextual, but the words used are important because so many twist words and change their meaning. Remember how your years with M convinced you that the mind was bad? Mind is good, intellect is good, thinking for oneself is good, but M and PAM and DLM/Elan Vital twisted those words to make them negative. I think that we must use discernment regarding word usage, and we must avoid using exclusive vocabularies. I work in the areas of theology and history, but I try to avoid using the jargon and vocabulary of those areas when posting here. I think that it is very important to use words in their proper context, and it is important to call people to task when words are misused or their meanings twisted. I find it difficult at times to call myself a Christian because of the right-wing, homophobic, misogynist, fundamentalists who call themselves Christians and have ruined the name for others. Words are important! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 30, 1998 at 16:52:02 (EDT)
From: Carol Email: None To: Mickey the Pharisee Subject: Guess, I'll try harder Message: Are you at all familiar with 'New Thought Christianity'? Many of my current beliefs are similar to their theology. It is definitely not 'New Age' although it is not critical of others beliefs. Emmet Fox is one of the old writers or framers of it. Carol Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 30, 1998 at 17:15:41 (EDT)
From: Mickey the Pharisee Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net To: Carol Subject: Guess, I'll try harder Message: I'm not sure about New Thought Xianity; is it similar to Unity and the Science of Mind stuff? I visited a Science of Mind church a few times when dating the woman who is now my wife, and we participated in a class of 'treatments for prosperity' until I pointed out that the only one getting proserous was the instructor at $60.00 a pop! I have also heard Matthew Fox speak on Creation Spirituality, but I am more of a Liberation Theology (Gutierrez, Boff, and Robino) and Moltman's Theology of Hope kind of guy. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 30, 1998 at 17:20:14 (EDT)
From: Mickey the Pharisee Email: None To: Carol Subject: Oops! Message: I wrote: 'but I am more of a Liberation Theology (Gutierrez, Boff, and Robino) and Moltman's Theology of Hope kind of guy.' I MEANT Sorbino, not Robino. Who is Robino? He must be Patrick Ryan's college roommate. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 30, 1998 at 17:28:59 (EDT)
From: M the P again! Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net To: Carol Subject: Hey Carol Message: Carol, I am really interested in continuing a discussion about New Thought Christianity and your church and its teachings, but I'd prefer to do it off the Forum. Please contact me via e-mail at the address above. Regards, Michael Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 30, 1998 at 18:17:42 (EDT)
From: Carol Email: None To: M the P again! Subject: Hey Carol Message: Will do, but give me some time. I spent too much here recently!!I'd like to look into the authors you spoke of, too. Carol Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 30, 1998 at 20:49:28 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Mickey the Pharisee Subject: Nitpicking,Jim Message: Hi Mickey, Last night I heard this Christian writer interviewed on the radio. Maybe you know her. She's the author of a book about the 'Jesus Prayer' whatever that is. I couldn't believe the extent of obfuscation and childish word play she was absolutely revelling in. Sometimes it seems that religious leaders' stock in trade is just finding ways to turn words around, inside out, upside down, and all like that. Can I think of an example? She was asked how she lives with the uncertainty of knowing if Jesus is really with her. Her answer? 'Ah, but that's the beauty of it all! I embrace the uncertainty which, I feel, would be ruined with any confirmation. In fact, it's that very uncertainty that IS my confirmation, don't you see? If it weren't for the uncertainty I wouldn't be able to have faith and this faith is the greatest blessing of all. THAT is my proof of God, that he allows me to know him through not really knowing him at all. Know what I mean?' No, Lady,I don't see and no, I don't know what you mean. Do you? Mickey, you are such a clear, level-headed kind of guy. How do you tolerate all this religious bunk? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 30, 1998 at 22:30:45 (EDT)
From: Mickey the Pharisee Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net To: Jim Subject: Nitpicking,Jim Message: Well, I just avoid hanging out with people who talk like that person. The Jesus Prayer would be very familiar to you; it's an Eastern Orthodox prayer. One says 'Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God' while inhaling, and 'Have mercy on me, a Sinner' while exhaling. Sound familiar? Jim, there are aspects of religion which aren't over-run by people spouting gibberish, and there are many religious people who use reason, believe in evolution, and wouldn't drive you crazy at all. If you are interested in how someone can do such a thing, you might read 'The Faith of a Physicist' by John Polkinghorne, an Anglican priest and former Cambridge Professor of Mathematical Physics. I'll admit that there is a lot of religious talk which drives me crazy, too. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 28, 1998 at 06:37:35 (EDT)
From: Richard Email: None To: Keith Subject: The Forum Message: But Bill , despite our differance of perception and opinion I'm glad to see you think things out. Unlike some here who just regurgitate the same old tired viewpoints OK Keith, just re-read what you posted above in italics and THEN tell me what the difference is between YOUR patronising, sanctimonious bullshit and the patronising, sanctimonious bullshit posted here by me, Jim or anyone else. As far as I can tell Keith, if I slant my posting style and content to something of your liking, I may get a pat on the head from you. It's not just about style and content Keith, it's about the feelings and meaning behind all that stuff. YOU have to do some work too when you read this stuff. Some days I can cut it intellectually and some days I'm just so incoherent with emotion that a few well chosen insults is all I can manage. But most folks here seem to understand that and respond anyway. THAT'S why I post here, 'cos there's something here for me no matter how I feel. If I felt that I had to comply with some sort of standard of intellectual argument or literary style in order to get my posts taken seriously, I might just as well jack the whole fucking thing in. regards Richard Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 28, 1998 at 08:07:35 (EDT)
From: Keith Email: None To: Richard Subject: The Forum Message: Richard oh Richard , I'm with you on this. It pains me to feel so misunderstood . Of course it is about the shifting tides of emotion . And the shifting tides of thought . I have no arguement with you , but you are wrong to think that just because I said a kind word to Bill that I'm patting the ones who I approve of on the head. Do you have a vested interest in finding fault with me ? I too wish to express freely as I feel at the moment ; and I have done so since discovering this site. But I'm aware of the pitfalls of expressing myself at times when I could say things that I really don't mean. I'm aware of the fact that I'm sharing thoughts with other people , who like me are seeking for some truth and healing . It's a difficult balance is'nt it? Balancing ones moods with ones caring for others. Regards Keith Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 28, 1998 at 11:12:52 (EDT)
From: Richard Email: None To: Keith Subject: patronising, sanctimonious bul Message: tell me what the difference is between YOUR patronising, sanctimonious bullshit and the patronising, sanctimonious bullshit posted here by me, Jim or anyone else. What I'm trying to say here Keith is simply this, say what you have to say and let other people read it and respond or not. You seem to be accusing Jim of trying to control the agenda when my perception is exactly the same of you. This forum is a really free environment in a perpetual state of fluidity. Sometimes alliances of opinion are formed but only for a short while. Like I said before I can't tell the difference between your shit, Jim's shit and my shit. regards Richard PS. No, I have no particular vested interest in finding fault with you, don't be so paranoid. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 28, 1998 at 15:12:42 (EDT)
From: VP Email: None To: bb Subject: bb, off topic Message: 'The mormon guy that lied and said he found and then 'lost' golden tablets that told him about this white man culture that ruled in america with castles and armies and had roads and a civilization and a population made up of early christians that migrated from isreal in the first century or something like that.' Joseph Smith founded the Mormon religion. It was an amazing scam. He was a person of questionable moral character even before he went into the spirituality buisness. I have heard that he was an land swindler prior to being a religious leader. He talked many people into believing he had some 'magic glasses' (with which he translated golden tablets which mysteriously vanished). The tablets you speak of became the Book of Mormon. It is the story of the missing tribe of Isreal which the mormons believe lived in America. (Not exactly white men, but a scam none the less.) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 30, 1998 at 00:16:17 (EDT)
From: TD Email: None To: Mark Subject: The Forum Message: Good post Mark. I'm not going to make a judgement on anything written on the forum, as I tend to skip over stuff that I don't like or that irritates me, and my posts probably have the exact same effect on some people, but ah well, c’est la vie! I will say however, that when I was a lurking wavering premie and using this forum to help me extricate myself, I was so hungry for good reasonable discussion of M, K and DLM/EV that it sometimes became frustrating when conversations got completely off the topic or slid into total slagging matches, or into a kind of personality assassination. It was those good informative discussions (whether they be angry/sad/passionate/funny) that helped me defect, whereas the other types just prolonged the agony of deciding 'on which side I belonged'!! Now that I'm an ex-premie, I can participate in a variety of the conversations held on the forum, and I'm grateful to be able to do that and I like all the differing reactions from people. And yet always at the back of my mind is the fact that there are probably premie lurkers out there who are in the same state I was in, and I know that it just prolongs the agony of the 'defection' process when the conversation deviates too far from just 'chewing the fat' on all things associated with premiedom. Anyway that was another of my two cents worth. Regards, TD Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 30, 1998 at 05:07:43 (EDT)
From: Carol Email: None To: TD Subject: The Forum Message: Good Point, TD. At first readings of the Forum, I was a bit put-off by all the flaming going on. It was sort of shocking. And in my first posts in which I was really wanting someone to respond to me quickly, I posted a quote from my minister, whose ideas I respect and asked what people thought of it. I was also a fence-sitter at first. I was surprised and hurt/angered by the strong criticism of some ideas I shared and of me for having them and I nearly backed out the door. Then I decided that I could benefit by learning to communicate with people who created a feeling of conflict and fear or anger in me. And I have gained a clarity of mind and a greater confidence to speak about issues here and explain mine or try to understand others various viewpoints. Carol Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 30, 1998 at 07:57:17 (EDT)
From: TD Email: None To: Carol Subject: The Forum Message: Yeah, I know what you mean. I think this forum is very multifunctional in that it provides an outlet for a range of stages we're all going through, and it also offers a very dynamic, alive (oops, am I starting to sound like I’m giving satsang?) rendezvous point for people to meet up in. Whether you're feeling angry, sad or grateful in relation to your recent experiences, you can let it rip here and know that someone will respond in kind. I love the fact that it has blossomed as opposed to being started by one ex-premie and then fizzling out due to 'lack of interest'. It's being propelled by so many inspiring diverse personalities which I gotta say, I find pretty attractive after having lived the stifled restrictive homogenous life of a premie! In regards to the comments you made by your minister in the early days, I feel there are some things that we've heard or experienced that are open to debate from other people and some things that aren't. I've had some experiences in indigenous ceremonies that were so amazing and in many ways 'unreal' that they could be construed here as total 'new-age crap'. But as far as I'm concerned they are as real to me as brushing my teeth was this morning, so I certainly don't feel the need to have them discussed here and possibly denigrated. I guess the common reason we're here is because of our involvement with M, and when we step outside of that, all our other differences come to the fore, and hence we become susceptible to all other kinds of criticism. Kind regards, TD Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 30, 1998 at 16:25:07 (EDT)
From: Carol Email: None To: TD Subject: The Forum Message: Carol,you very right! (according to my personal opinion of course. Need we say that everytime we refer to ideas of our own, so that the validity of 'truth' or 'rightness' won't get jumped on?!?) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 30, 1998 at 09:45:49 (EDT)
From: Richard Email: None To: TD Subject: Well worth 2 cents TD... Message: Hi TD, Now that I'm an ex-premie, I can participate in a variety of the conversations held on the forum, and I'm grateful to be able to do that and I like all the differing reactions from people. Your original point about flaming etc.. is a good one and well made, However, your comment above also indicates that our needs are various and changable and that the forum flourishes as a dynamic medium. My first post here was somewhat pompous and defensive and was greeted by the much maligned Jim with absolute derision. My immediate instinct was to run and hide. But I also got other responses which were kind and supportive. As a result I realised that the forum was a group of real live people with differing opinions. I would have liked to communicate only with the nice folks but this is not possible, either here or in life. So I learned the importance of developing, adapting and defending my views within the context of a useful coexistence. The forum will never be just one approach, one view or one style of communication. Just like real life. Thanks for that post TD, you made me think, AGAIN. regards Richard Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 30, 1998 at 10:28:28 (EDT)
From: TD Email: None To: Richard Subject: Ta Richard! Message: Thanks Richard! Yeah, I think that we will always have a subjective response to different attitudes expressed on this site and that may fluctuate at different times in our lives. I know that on some threads I read, I will resent Jim's brusque nature as opposed to some of the more compassionate replies from other exes, and then on other posts, I would applaud the fact that he would 'cut to the chase' and get to the destination 'quicker', if you know what I mean...it's totally individual!! As I type this, I keep getting the feeling that this website and the people that inhabit it, are actually the embodiment of the kind of people M used to depict as ‘conscious people’ which is very ironic considering we’re all ex-premies. By that, I mean we seem to be very aware, very human, very honest, and very individual! If that’s the case, viva ex-premie consciousness! Regards, TD Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 30, 1998 at 10:12:12 (EDT)
From: Katie Email: None To: TD Subject: Great post, TD Message: Hi TD, I liked your post so much that I am going to bring it up to the top (hope that's OK). I just got an e-mail from an ex-premie this morning who said some of the stuff that you did, and I think it's important. Thanks, Katie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 30, 1998 at 10:37:59 (EDT)
From: TD Email: None To: Katie Subject: Thanks Katie! Message: No worries Katie! What a lovely response I've received, since I've come back from my week's hiatus. I really must drop by here more often!!! Regards, TD Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 27, 1998 at 20:41:45 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Monitor crashes -- off topic Message: Hi, Does anyone know why my monitor just siezes up once in a while, forcing me to reboot? I'll be on-line when suddenly I try to go to another page and the page itself changes but parts of the earlier screen stay up. In moments, if I keep trying new pages, my screen looks like a collage of Keith's brain. Then I have to reboot. I was just hoping someone here might know their way around this type of difficulty. Thanks, Jim Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 27, 1998 at 20:47:48 (EDT)
From: Gerry Email: None To: Jim Subject: Monitor crashes -- off topic Message: Now Jim, you just wanted to say this line In moments, if I keep trying new pages, my screen looks like a collage of Keith's brain. Pretty funny. Hey thanks for the great weekend, bud. Patty had a blast, too. She really likes Laurie. See you at Bumbershoots, Labor Day. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 27, 1998 at 21:22:51 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Gerry Subject: Monitor crashes -- off topic Message: Gerry, We had a great time too. The video also worked out alright. Shit, it's hot here! Jim Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 28, 1998 at 10:28:55 (EDT)
From: Victoria Email: None To: Jim Subject: Monitor crashes -- clear cache Message: Does anyone know why my monitor just siezes up once in a while, forcing me to reboot? I'll be on-line when suddenly I try to go to another page and the page itself changes but parts of the earlier screen stay up. In moments, if I keep trying new pages, my screen looks like a collage... Then I have to reboot. I was just hoping someone here might know their way around this type of difficulty. Jim -- have you tried clearing your cache? As I understand it, cache is where your computer stores images in order to enable you to go back and forth to previous pages without having to reload from scratch, taking up more precious nanoseconds (or nano-minutes if you're using AOL =) that is). The option will be in user preferences or tools or something like that depending on what type of browser you're using. Now, if only I could make that metaphorical jump -- clear my heart cache, clear my mind cache, whatever. When you're cache gets too full, it ends up taking more time to load NEW images/pages. Sensory overload. Cache full. The other thing, I've been posting here intermittently without one insult from anyone and I'm beginning to feel, well, welcomed certainly, but -- are you taking me seriously? Come on, challenge me, I can take it. And finally, edited your post like the friend that takes the good stuff and sifts out the rest. =) Victoria Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 27, 1998 at 19:05:26 (EDT)
From: VP Email: None To: Everyone Subject: And it is ...'Connect'? Message: Throw out your old AIIDs and sign up for the NEW magazine publication from Visions: CONNECT, Inspiration and Information. Eleven dollars. In this issue: Going Global, The Video Generation, Knowledge In Africa, Words and Wisdom, A Different India, Magic in Malaysia, and The truly portable event. 33 pages with beautiful color photographs... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 27, 1998 at 19:31:03 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: VP Subject: Hey Veep Message: Have you actually seen this magazine? If so, could you give us some details? Who's on the masthead? Who are the staff? Who writes for it? What's its distribution? Also, what kinds of references -- direct or otherwise -- does it make to what's his name? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 27, 1998 at 22:36:04 (EDT)
From: VP Email: None To: Jim Subject: Connect and a new album Message: Jim, It is in the new Visions Catalog which just came recently. It is the first issue, and no I have not seen it. The visions catalog has a color picture of it's cover on page 4. It has a color picture of the heavens during a sunset--stars and the sun fading behind a horizon line. Inset into the left side of this background are three photos, one of a satelite,(sp?) one of you know who, and one of a woman with her head covered reading some type of literature. There is also a quote apparently from you-know-who inset on the cover. It is Issue number one. I haven't seen the inside, because, well, this is just the ad for it that I am looking at. There is also a new album offered in the catalog called Domo presents Reflections (an intrumental collection). Want to hear something interesting? This one is also offered at record stores... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 28, 1998 at 00:41:33 (EDT)
From: Gail Email: None To: VP Subject: Meditating On Your Love Message: will get to be the #1 hit MJ said it could be back in 1978, I guess. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 27, 1998 at 18:47:34 (EDT)
From: Keith Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Kick my butt Message: I like it ! I like speaking out. I like confronting the part of me that fears having my butt kicked. I like playing games with those who think in ways that differ from mine. I sometimes like to move away from collective gatherings that agree too much and therefore challenge too little. I like to wage friendly war ...play war games...because it frees me up....and encourages my capacity to speak out. I am an advocate for free speech. I am the spokesperson (katie) for those who happen to discover a concordant note in my words. I am motivated by an awareness of double standards ; of onesidedness ; of elitism that supposedly fights against elitism. I knew that my last posts would stir up a storm...or at least a storm in a teacup...but it was time to loosen the binds that bind. I realise that putting certain 'features ' under the microscope blows them up out of proportion. But for me , the movements towards unity and towards diversity (that involves fragmentation and a certain loss of the big picture) are complimentary and of equal value. I was NOT ATTACKING THE FORUM as a whole. Rather , feeling the need to balance things up a bit. Any grouping seems to tend towards a type of rigid 'unspoken' set of rules. The sentiment that there are no controls within this forum is only true (or mainly true) in so far as conscious agreements are concerned. But there is a type of evolved consensus that is hopefully open to be challenged. Personally I feel that the unofficial status quo on this forum is made up of attitudes and beliefs that limit the scope of what could be a wide ranging and intelligent dialectic about Maharaji , premies , ex-premies and mysticism, spirituality , athiesm and other related topics. There is a fairly constant type of 'party line' expressed on this forum that assumes it has all the answers and most of the questions worked out. Maharaji has been found totally guilty. He has been sentenced to the maximum penalty. And so have the premies. This oft-repeated assertion is setting itself up as an authoritarian principle of the first order of truth. Therefore there can be no balanced debate. Only polemics instead of dialectics. I am not 'absolutely sure of anything'. And I hope to remain open to new data that can change my world view. I shall continue to try to walk the difficult path of complexity ; because life is complex ; and any attempt to simply place things in convienient little boxes will suffer histories revision. Maharaji IS ALSO A COMPLEX BEING and attempts to paint him in absolute colours once and for all is fascist. Akin to the way the nazis depicted the jews. Or the way the militant catholics and protestants like to depict each other. Or the way some ex-premies and premies also like to depict each other. Or how some athiests and spiritualists like to depict each other. Such attitudes lean towards fascism ; authoritarianism ; cultishness ; elitism ; sectarianism ; fundamentalism ; absolutism and violence. It is actually deplorable how one-sided some ex's like jim have gotten away with it . Someone ought to take jim to the cleaners as he himself tries to do with Maharaji. The jim is really a nice , fun to be with guy sentiment may well be true. Jim is complex too ; we are all multi-dimensional. But I'm sure that there are many who can attest to how wonderful it is to spend time with Maharaji. So what? I am not attacking jim as a whole entity ; whereas could jim say that about his attitude towards Maharaji. If so , then he should make that clear. Jim has a hateful , bitter streak (and so do others ) and that does not lean towards healing and clarity. He also makes me laugh too. But his arrogance needs to be pointed out. Without some horrid little word generator. BTW; I feel that the link to that 'generator' is an abomination. We are all too damn intellectually lazy as it is . Enough said for now ; you can line up and kick my butt now. Keith Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 27, 1998 at 19:37:21 (EDT)
From: Did someone tape that Email: None To: Keith Subject: sign to your back? Message: I think CD has one too.... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 27, 1998 at 19:46:17 (EDT)
From: Generator Email: None To: Keith Subject: wassa madda? Message: 'BTW; I feel that the link to that 'generator' is an abomination.' I hope you are kidding....if not..... A little extreme response to a joke wouldn't you say? Is it that you FELL for it? Or is it that it's vocaulary is threatening to your self image? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 27, 1998 at 20:07:16 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Keith Subject: So you're a liar, Keith? Message: I am the spokesperson (katie) for those who happen to discover a concordant note in my words. Keith, You said you were a 'spokesperson' which necessarily means that some have asked you to speak for them. Not just one or two but, as you wrote, 'many'. Here's how you put it: I am the spokes-person for many forum contributors who choose to not express what I'm saying here...to one degree or another. (emphasis mine). Now, however, it seems that you're just assuming a bunch of people share your sentiments. If that's the case, Keith, you're a liar. So tell me, what's up? Did 'many' people ask you to speak on their behalf or not? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 27, 1998 at 22:17:22 (EDT)
From: Keith Email: None To: Jim Subject: So you're a liar, Keith? Message: Now, however, it seems that you're just assuming a bunch of people share your sentiments. If that's the case, Keith, you're a liar. So tell me, what's up? Did 'many' people ask you to speak on their behalf or not? ' Assuming ' is the key word jim. Don't you assume a lot too . My assumption was partly based on the knowledge that a number of ex's who post here have also found it necessary to communicate to each other in other ways ; and partly because the contents would be deemed unpopular here ; not because the contents are off topic as such. Also my assumption is based on a number of posters actually agreeing with me after my post was posted. Jim , you are still riding your high horse , just like bm. Is it a rocking horse? Just asking. Keith Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 27, 1998 at 22:45:27 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Keith Subject: Yeah, that's what I thought Message: ' Assuming ' is the key word jim. Don't you assume a lot too . My assumption was partly based on the knowledge that a number of ex's who post here have also found it necessary to communicate to each other in other ways ; and partly because the contents would be deemed unpopular here ; not because the contents are off topic as such. Also my assumption is based on a number of posters actually agreeing with me after my post was posted. Keith, No matter how thin you slice it, your claim to speak on behalf of many people was a lie. Not an insignificant one either. I don't know what your problem is, Keith, but you've definitely got one. You know, I hate to seem prejudiced or anything but I'll tell you, my general observation is this. People who are still into new age thinking past their early twenties are more likely to be dishonest than others. And why not? They're not bound by logic, language or any value system based on real accountability. As far as I'm concerned, Keith, you've just proven to be another example of this sorry fact. It's only a generalization but it has been my experience. I'd MUCH rather lend money to a 'regular' person than a new-ager like you. I bet you'd probably think the same way. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 28, 1998 at 00:04:19 (EDT)
From: Keith Email: None To: Jim Subject: Yeah, that's what I thought Message: Jim , You are really the one to speak on matters of ethics , forum morality and the like . You are a personification of truthfulness. No . Pull the other leg. And btw ; I did'nt lie ; my statement was simply not intended to be taken so literally. For that oversight i'm sorry. But jim come clean....you 'criminal' lawyer you ..... you really empathise with the criminal mind , don't you ? You see a crim under every bed , don't you ? You scan people's words who you deem as public enemies , for any little hook that you can wrap your grimy mind around. You are a slimy , grimy , charismatic , charming to those who fall for your fascist ideas, type of nasty beasty. Anyway , that's my opinion. Keith Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 28, 1998 at 00:19:05 (EDT)
From: Keith Email: None To: Jim Subject: athiest asshole Message: jim , you are an athiest asshole ! Now , how does it feel to be abused and pigeon holed ? you obnoxious athiest asshole ? Please , other athiests and other assholes , don't take offence ; this message is purely for bubala jimji. see jim , when you stop riding the high ground of simplistic boxing , pigeon holing , labling , classifying , name calling and the like , your adverseries might choose to debate with you ; but that would tax your limited intellectual powers . Never-the -less , I live in eternal optimism . You new-age athiestic , sceptic , fascist , asshole , you ! Your turn , here's my butt! Keith . Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 28, 1998 at 02:49:37 (EDT)
From: beeb Email: None To: Keith Subject: athiest asswhole Message: Calling bubala jimji new age is hitting below the chackra. What's new age music played backwards? new age music. What part of jimji's body is actually athiest? Actually no part. Conciousness is in a field of it's own like matter is and energy is. To not think conciousness has a self aware part is popular thinking, but, I suspect Jimji might now allow for that possibility. But he is loath to allow for interpretations. Unless they are not reduceable to mush. If they can be pounded into mush, then he is not satisfied that they are real. Mr. 'show me' state. In military terms, Jim is a fragmentation scatterbomb. Rick comes in like an F-15 over Bagdad with the laser targeting on. Battlehardened sentries that spent long hours keeping the forum from becomeing a satsang hall. Of course, you have a control card you aren't playing. I can't tell you, that is against one of the unwritten rules of the forum. I'm glad you stick around. Me, I can't stick around, work is taking me out of state again. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 28, 1998 at 06:06:29 (EDT)
From: Keith Email: None To: beeb Subject: athiest asswhole Message: Thankyou beeb , beneath my battle experienced facade of calm and inner strengh I am (also) a vulnerable soul that loves my fellow beings and in the midst of battle loves to receive a kind word . Blessings to you my friend. And of course blessings to new age skeptic and forum resident clown , jimji. Beeb , ENJOY YOUR TRIP . Keith Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 27, 1998 at 20:13:04 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: Keith Subject: Kick my butt Message: Keith: Don't you see what you are saying? Don't you see that Jim has every RIGHT to attack you and/or what you say, verbally (not physically, of course)? What you are saying is that we should all be like 'milk-toast.' We shouldn't have any strong feelings about anything! We should just roll over and play dead and be especially 'polically correct' with one another. I DON'T THINK SO! This is an emotionally/intellectually charged issue that will bring out the best and worst in us on any given day. I suppose that you believe in 'non-partisan' politics, too. NOT ME! I want some honest and, if necessary, vitriolic debate 'on the hill.' When you speak of non-partisan politics, or everyone being pc, you are speaking robot-thought; 1984, here we come. I agree that certain members of this forum can get pretty 'charged-up' on the issue of M; well what the heck do you expect? He has lied, cheated, changed his version of truth, etc for a very long time. He has downright pissed some of us off! So Jim, et al. (including you Keith), keep it up. For those that can't take a little verbal abuse occasionally, maybe it's time to consider why a written missive can upset you so. Let's talk about that, too. If someone wants to 'kick my butt' over this post, I make one thing absolutely clear: I TAKE PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY for that which I write and/or say, but I don't take anyone's response personally. It is the 'IDEA EXPRESSED' that is at issue, not the person writing it (even if you do call me an asshole). Well, I'm retired military, I AM AN ASSHOLE! ;-) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 27, 1998 at 20:44:02 (EDT)
From: Gerry Email: None To: Mike Subject: Kick my butt Message: Nice post, Mike. Keith talks about dialectics, but doesn't seem to recognized it when he sees it. This is it in action! All the opposing forces he mentions: Or the way the militant catholics and protestants like to depict each other. Or the way some ex-premies and premies also like to depict each other. Or how some athiests and spiritualists like to depict each other. Such attitudes lean towards fascism ; authoritarianism ; cultishness ; elitism ; sectarianism ; fundamentalism ; absolutism and violence. Keith mentions polemics as undesireable. All it means is maintaining an opinion in the opposite direction. This is the essence of what he claims to enjoy. Mike said Keith: Don't you see what you are saying? Mike, I think you hit it on the head, here. PS Congratulations on your retirement. And thank you for your service to our country. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 28, 1998 at 11:29:36 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: Gerry Subject: Thanks Message: Gerry: Thanks for the comment about my military service. In response I say, 'It was my pleasure to serve.' When I took the oath to 'protect and defend' the Constitution, I didn't take it lightly. It's the reason that I am so fanatical about everyone's RIGHT to disagree and express themselves on this site. I believe in the Bill of Rights (every last one of them)! As a retired military member, I am still bound (GLADLY and PROUDLY) by this oath. You know, to bring this into the perspective of this particular FORUM, the Constitution, as written, appears to be an anti-cult document. The founding fathers tried to build a government that would not (could not!) succumb to 'personality worship.' It seems to me that they saw personality worship as a very REAL threat to the personal liberty and freedom of the folks living here! Although, we can elect some real bozo's at times, the counter-balancing of the other parts of the government tend to nullify it. It ain't 'perfect,' but it's a pretty darn good idea and the 'execution' ain't bad, either. NOT BAD FOR A BUNCH OF MERE MORTALS WITHOUT HELP FROM A (ahem!) SATGOOGOO, don't you think? :-) - Before anyone flames me for this one, I know that there are many on this site that are not citizens of the U.S., but obviously Gerry is and I was responding to his VERY kind comment concerning my retirement. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 28, 1998 at 13:22:40 (EDT)
From: Carol Email: None To: Mike Subject: Thanks Message: Mike, I'm glad you made it through your military experience in one piece. I used to protest the Vietnam war, but at the same time, I have always considered it honorable for a person to choose to be in the service. I also see the Constitution as worthy of protection. I have concerns about the distances the laws of the land have traveled from it's values. Some of its protections are being watered down. I wish all young people were required to do some sort of service, not just military, but social. It might save the country from being controlled by certain loud and persistent interests by reducing the complacency and feelings of powerlessness of the general public. Carol PS Scott sent me a picture of himself as a youth by e-mail. I have a picture of you in my head,but I'd like to see if I'm right! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 28, 1998 at 15:58:44 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: Carol Subject: Thanks Message: Carol: Nicely put! I think some form of social and/or military service is a great idea (but,of course, I'm kinda prejudiced on this issue...ha ha ha). I saw, first hand, what it did for most of the kids that came in without any definite life-goals or sense of purpose. It turned them into folks that I was proud to serve with and proud to lead. The soldiers and sailors I went to the Gulf with were the VERY BEST this country has to offer! I'm especially proud to have served with them. Now for this powerless feeling you alluded to: Don't feel powerless! You are anything, but powerless. That's your 'inner-defeatest' talking; don't give in! Carol, remember I know you better than that. You are an INCREDIBLY RESILIENT person! You are MUCH STRONGER than you think (or remember yourself to be). I WAS THERE, ya know! Your responses/expressions on this site give ample proof of that, to me. So why is it they don't to you? Hmmmm??? Remember, you are 'recovering' from the mugging of a lifetime. There are people in this world that have been pretty beaten up, but I think ex-premies are just about at the top of that heap. Give yourself a break... you're doin' just fine. RELAX! (But continue using your brain, of course...;-) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 28, 1998 at 15:26:52 (EDT)
From: Rick Email: None To: Mike Subject: Thanks Message: With all due respect, Mike, may I point out that the Constitution has been less than generous, for the past 200 years, towards Native Americans, African-Americans, Asian-Americans, Mexican-Americans, women, poor people, McCarthey victims, Vietnam, and a few others I've forgotten. Rick Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 28, 1998 at 16:53:42 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: Rick Subject: Thanks Message: Rick, I disagree. It isn't the Constitution that was less-than-generous. It was those doing the interpretation that blew it. The Constitution is pretty clear (at least to me it is!), but there have been some pretty strange interpretations of it over the years. There are constitutional lawyers, judges, etc. All of whom put their 'personal' slant on it. In most cases, it is probably a mistake, but in the cases you site in your post, I think it was vicious and vindictive. I know those people weren't treated according to the mandates of the Constitution. Here's a poser for you... Is the existence of the U.S. Department of Education Constitutional? The answer: NO, but it has never been challenged. How can I say this? Because the Constitution clearly states that unless congress is specifically authorized to do something, by the constitution, then it is reserved as a 'state's' right. Since the constitution doesn't specifically permit the creation and maintenance of the Department of Education by the federal governement, then it isn't a legal entity. I know there are lawyers on this site that will likely disagree with me on this, but it just illustrates the point that the Constitution, no matter how well written, can be interpreted or misinterpreted. For example: If Native Americans weren't considered 'people,' then they had no rights as people. I know this is ludicrous in the EXTREME, but guess what? That's exactly how that slight-of-hand was performed! It's the people, not the Constitution that is at fault here! (I don't blame 'inanimate' objects for anything. It's too easy...). Rick, I'm NOT admonishing you here... just asking. I'm not saying you haven't, but if you haven't: Would you read it from cover-to-cover? I think you will be pleasantly surprised by its contents AND somewhat shocked by the current interpretations by those we entrust with that job. Like I said in an earlier post, it ain't perfect, but I think it's pretty good stuff. AS ALWAYS: MY OPINION! :-) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 28, 1998 at 17:27:53 (EDT)
From: Rick Email: None To: Mike Subject: Thanks Message: Mike, I've read enough of the Constitution to understand that it is full of integrity. I think what I was getting at (and I repeat that I don't mean any disrespect) was that the practical application of the constitution is pretty much what we live with. There has been a consistent enough interpretation, over the years, to recognize trends and patterns that aren't consistent with the original intent or the purity of the document. I think what the military defends is as much the interpretation as the document itself. No admonishment taken. Rick Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 28, 1998 at 18:23:00 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: Rick Subject: Thanks Message: Yes, Rick I have to agree with that. It is a beautiful document that I felt was worth swearing an oath to (as opposed to swearing an oath to a person). By the way, that's one thing I really liked from the start: I was swearing an oath to protect and defend an ideal, not some human or other. Anyway, I'm sorry I didn't get your meaning from the original post (e.g. I thought you were taking shots at the Constitution itself). SO... we agree to agree.... ha ha ha. Judging from what you have said, I think we agree that the 'interpretors' need to go back to school. I think they have forgotten how to speak the english, eh? I always thought, 'How could we have treated other people the way did and say we are following the precepts set forth in the Constitution?' Good question (and boy did I get smacked around for asking it, at times). Well, all I can say is that we must vote for those who's interpretation follows the original intent, as best we can, and hope for the best. Sooner or later, the bozo's have to go..... don't they????? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 27, 1998 at 22:00:03 (EDT)
From: Keith Email: None To: Mike Subject: milk-toast Message: Mike , you said , 'What you are saying is that we should all be like 'milk-toast.' No , no , that's definately not what I'm saying. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 28, 1998 at 13:12:33 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: Keith Subject: milk-toast Message: Yes, Keith it is EXACTLY what you are saying. What YOU are saying is that 'it is ok to have an opinion, as long as it's expressed the way I like.' Sounds a little authoritarian, doesn't it? It should because it IS! As I've said before, everyone here has the RIGHT to express their feelings and beliefs in any way they wish. The ONLY people that have ANY control of this are the people that OWN the physical hardware that holds these opinions and expressions (and they have wisely chosen to NOT CONTROL what and how thoughts and feelings are expressed here). The old cliche still applies, 'If it's too hot for you, get out of the kitchen.' OR better yet, get an air conditioner and stick around... We ALL might learn something if we stop taking other people's criticisms so damn personally (even if they were intended to be personal). Do I REALLY care if someone doesn't like what I've done with my life? Do I REALLY care if someone doesn't find my opinions appetizing? Do I REALLY care if someone doesn't like me personally? NO, NOT REALLY! But I DO CARE if someone, anyone tries to determine how I will express myself or what I will express. If YOU don't like the opinion expressed or you don't like how it was expressed, or you don't like the person that expressed it, then DON'T READ OR RESPOND TO IT! Pretty simple, eh? But, DON'T YOU DARE TRY TO TELL ME, OR ANYONE ELSE, HOW TO EXPRESS MYSELF/OURSELVES. You weren't elected to any post on this site (therefore you don't truely represent anyone else on this site) and you don't own the hardware! Don't CLAIM to represent others and then, be default, blame them for any bad results. TAKE PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY for what you say! By claiming that you represent others, you aren't taking responsibility for your opinion (you can always blame the 'others' for the opinion). Hey, ISN'T THIS EXACTLY WHAT M DOES when it comes to the 'g_d' thing? 'Hey, it's the 'premies' saying it (you know the silent premies), NOT ME... I'M NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR THOSE STATEMENTS!' I say, 'BULLS__T M!' You and you alone are responsible for what you say, Keith. There, 'I' said it! These are MY opinions. I don't represent anyone else but ME. How I choose to express myself and what I say is my decison, not yours. It ain't your call, bubba! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 27, 1998 at 20:34:53 (EDT)
From: Jerry Email: None To: Keith Subject: Kick my butt Message: I am the spokesperson (katie) for those who happen to discover a concordant note in my words. Don't you think this is a little messianic, Keith? If people can't speak up for themselves, that's their problem, not your's. There is a fairly constant type of 'party line' expressed on this forum that assumes it has all the answers and most of the questions worked out. Maybe they do, Keith. Maybe some people have uprooted every last ounce of cult programming from their own psyche and they're qualified to help the rest of us who have still got some weeds to pull. Do you think that's possible? I'm kind of hoping it is because I would really like to rid myself of M & K and get on with my life. But I'm sure that there are many who can attest to how wonderful it is to spend time with Maharaji. Who cares? Is this what you really want to hear, Chris? How wonderful it is to spend time with Maharaji? We've all spent time with Maharaji. What was so wonderful about it? It was a total mind-fuck is what it was. People who want to spend time with Maharaji should do just that. I don't think it's necessary for them to report back what a wonderful time they're having. Enough said for now ; you can line up and kick my butt now. Nobody wants to kick your butt, Keith. Just lighten up, willya? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 27, 1998 at 20:43:46 (EDT)
From: Jerry Email: None To: Jerry Subject: Typo... embarrassing Message: Called Keith Chris in my post. Sorry about that Chris and Keith. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 27, 1998 at 21:01:49 (EDT)
From: Keith Email: None To: Jerry and Gerry Subject: FUN Message: Gerry , point well made. are we not engaging in a type of dialectics here and now...or whence and hence....? Yes , it's moving in that direction , and that did not pass by un-noticed. Jerry , you say , just lighten up...but , come on , I am not a static robot , despite what some of my detractors think. But I must say that in this 'dialectic' we are having , I am finding room for revision and growth ; so thanks to all my well meaning friends who enjoy kicking me up my metaphorical backside ; which is also another way of saying that I'm not advocating a 'milk bread' inter-personal manner ; I thought that would be clear by my own choice of words. I simply find stasis of ideas and beliefs to be decadent and inertiac. Isn't this fun as well as challenging ? Or am I alone in my thinking? Keith Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 27, 1998 at 22:07:35 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Keith Subject: Too much fun for me Message: Keith, You seem to be ignoring my question. You claimed to be speaking on behalf of many people here. Was that true or not? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 27, 1998 at 01:09:13 (EDT)
From: Complaint Generator Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Prem Pal Message: My complaint about Prem Pal Singh Rawat I am writing to express my concerns about Prem Pal Singh Rawat and, more specifically, his conjectures regarding duplicitous individuals. What follows is a set of observations I have made about untrustworthy social outcasts. Certainly, his loyalists have vanity without pride, voluptuousness without taste, and learning without wisdom. Naturally, much of his success is due to the rest of us bending over backwards to assist him and to overlook his failings. Easy as it may seem to search for solutions that are more creative and constructive than the typically xenophobic ones championed by malodorous self-promoters, it is far more difficult to take a strong position on his magic-bullet explanations, which, after all, fan the flames of fetishism into a planet-spanning inferno. Don't be fooled: The fact of the matter is that Rawat is proposing a cure for which there is no disease or, more likely, a disease for which there is no cure. Maybe you, too, want to grant power-drunk gutter-dwellers the keys to the kingdom, so let me warn you: In my effort to uncover his hidden prejudices, I will need to reveal the constant tension between centripetal and centrifugal forces of dialogized heteroglossia resulting from his complaints. Why doesn't he reveal the truth about himself? His efforts to replace the search for truth with a situationist relativism based on ultra-deplorable fascism have touched the lives of every person in this country, and if you don't believe me, then you should empower the oppressed to control their own lives. Viewing all this from a higher vantage point, we can see that Rawat's utterances are related to the elements and bases of neocolonialism both organizationally and ideologically. When we tease apart the associations necessary to Rawat's favoritism-prone mendacious tactics, we see that Rawat's operatives always detect profound wisdom in what is most incomprehensible to them personally. Wouldn't it be wonderful if we lived in a world without repugnant bitter-types? Trapped by the cognitive dissonance engendered by hard evidence and common sense, Rawat feels obligated to inculcate iconoclastic practices in an imprudent attempt to justify his protests. If he is victorious in his quest to rob us of our lives, our health, our honor, and our belongings, then his crown will be the funeral wreath of humanity. To say anything else would be a lie. For those of you who don't know, to him, acting like abysmal smart alecks is a lot of fun. While others have also published information about malicious flag burners, with that kind of thinking, Rawat's cult followers don't want to make their own decisions but want Rawat to do their thinking for them. Those who get involved with his unconscionable surrogates are seldom aware of his dealings with cocky imbeciles. Propagandism, as a social philosophy, is hopeless. The sole point of agreement between myself and the worst types of profligate oafs I've ever seen is that he proclaims at every opportunity that his mission is to destroy our moral fiber. This march into macabre meretricious vandalism is not happening by mere chance. It is not, as many self-deceiving whiners insist, the result of the natural, inevitable course of things. It is happening as a direct result of Rawat's vengeful perversions. Generally speaking, I disagree with Rawat's unambitious policies. Rawat should hide his head in shame before the judgment of future generations, whose tongue it will no longer be possible to stop and which, therefore, will say what today all of us know to be true: I am skeptical of Rawat's efforts to produce a snivelling-to-the-core definition of 'magnetohydrodynamics'. The only way for him to redeem himself is to stop being so whiney. I call this phenomenon 'Rawat-ism'. Should we blindly trust such irrational bloodthirsty children? Only he could believe that the most asinine pseudo-intellectuals I've ever seen are any better than semi-intelligible menaces. Essentially, his confreres, who are legion, have cooperated closely with belligerent moonstruck vagrants on several projects. Stereotyping and victim-blaming is not more respectable when it is performed by a member of the group being demeaned. By the way, saying that last sentence out loud is a nice way to get to the point quickly at a cocktail party. In order for us to realize more happiness in our lives, we need to understand that Rawat's ultimata are built on a backlash fueled by anger -- in the form of resentment, spite, vengeance, envy, loss, and bitterness over declining status -- on the part of disaffected sensualists. The primary point of disagreement between myself and uninformed wackos is whether or not in order to supply the missing ingredient that could stop the worldwide slide into voyeurism, tremendous sacrifices and equally great labors will be necessary. If you think about it, I reject Rawat's demands. Look, Rawat's rantings are simply the result of vested interests striking back at a group whose actions in support of religious freedom, social reform, and government accountability have cut through those vested interests. My observations are perhaps unique. As I mentioned before, Rawat's factotums fight more for the negative destruction of opposing ideologies than for the positive promotion of their own. Similarly, Rawat's comments are not only bad for the immortal soul, but for mortal men and women. We are being insidiously, conspiratorially, and treasonously led by deception, by bribery, by coercion, and by fear, to have more impact on Earth's biological, geological, and chemical systems during our lifetime and our children's than all preceding human generations had together. Rawat's invectives will break down the industrial-technological system sooner than you think. Calling Rawat's lackeys audacious schemers may be accurate, but we must coolly and objectively adopt the standpoint that I shall do my utmost to hold out the prospect of societal peace, prosperity, and a return to sane values and certainties. It disturbs me that these stolid misogynists have so little tolerance for differing points of view. Rawat has garnered enough support to create a global workers plantation overseen by transnational corporations who have no more concern for the human rights of those who produce their products or services than Rawat has for his slaves but not enough support to implement a viperine parody of justice called 'Rawat-ism'. To fuel the censorship-and-intolerance crowd has never been something that I, not being one of the many radical bloodsuckers of this world, wanted to do. Never. I wish that some of his representatives would ask themselves, 'Why am I helping him destroy our youths' ability to relax, reflect, study, and meditate?' To pick an obvious, but often overlooked, example, he needs some serious professional help. Whenever someone tells Rawat not to make a fetish of the virtues of sinister solecism, he gets all teary-eyed. My, my; how sad. My heart bleeds for him, it really does. From a public-policy perspective, his vicegerents are cut from the same mold as truculent cantankerous knuckleheads. I was thinking about how many of our present-day sufferings are the consequence of the pompous relationship between him and nerdy mudslinging maniacs. And then it hit me. As barbaric as his acolytes may be, they are also unpatriotic scurrilous cads. The next time someone denies that I don't know how to deal with grumpy fiends, look that person right in the eye and reply, 'We are on a slippery slope towards economic strife, social turmoil, cultural chaos, and haughty wretched post-structuralism.' And that's it. It is thoroughly ridiculous that I have to be faced with cowards whose heartless memoirs are treated with apathy. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 27, 1998 at 01:12:51 (EDT)
From: You too can be Email: None To: all Subject: this verbose Message: http://www-csag.cs.uiuc.edu/individual/pakin/complaint have fun!!! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 27, 1998 at 01:41:22 (EDT)
From: beeb Email: None To: You too can be Subject: Rawat-ism Message: An 8 beer post at least! Fun to read out loud. A couple of great Hiaku's in there. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 27, 1998 at 09:03:43 (EDT)
From: Sir David Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: You too can be Subject: Finally caught on. ha ha ha Message: My complaint about Maharaji Do you ever wake up in the morning thinking, 'I am appalled that I have cause to write this article?' Well, so do I. Let me begin by saying that this screams of the old belief that debauched litterbugs are merely dirty numskulls. At first, you might think that Maharaji should just face the facts. But on deeper inspection, you'll surely conclude that this theme is stated in one form or another in every one of Man's great religions. Any honest person who takes the time to read about this will be forced to conclude that mere association tends to lend credence to his subordinates because people assume they can't be that bad if a respected person is associated with them. A study of inimical out-of-touch perverts indicates broad political and ideological agreement on the use of force combined with a set of simple tactics to achieve their immediate goal: to acquire power and use it to indoctrinate dimwitted gutter-dwellers. More prosaically, his death squads seem to feel that Maharaji can do no wrong. I didn't want to talk about this. I really didn't. But some time ago, in the aftermath of his last volley of attacks, a group of conceited loud misers began to create an unwelcome climate for those of us who are striving to view the realms of autism and masochism not as two opposing poles, but as two continua. Hostility is a primary component of his behavior. If he would abandon his name-calling and false dichotomies, it would be much easier for me to compare, contrast, and identify the connections among different classes of hateful absenteeism. I don't have time to go into this in as much detail as I should, but when some unpatriotic spivs first introduced me to Maharaji's blathering practices, I felt that civilization had reached a nadir of bleakness. Forgive me if I ramble; I'm really upset, as I think you can tell. The most insensitive reprobates you'll ever see may possess a mass of 'knowledge', but their brains are unable to organize and register the material they have taken in. Maharaji's protests, while ideologically grounded in a rhetoric and practice of defeatism, are surrounded by a cloak of secrecy and 'plausible denial'. It seems to me that Maharaji is both shiftless and dishonest. Now there's a dangerous combination if I've ever seen one. The recent outrage at Maharaji's agendas may point to a brighter future. For now, however, I must leave you knowing that fastidious wimps like Maharaji often think they have the right to exploit the masses. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 27, 1998 at 11:18:45 (EDT)
From: G's mom Email: None To: Sir David, Jim et al Subject: ROTFLOL Message: This is hilarious!!! You know, it is so beautiful, it reminds me of Satsang. I bet we could write a Satsang generator too.....Insert, you know, so beautiful, by his grace, blah blah.... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 27, 1998 at 17:54:42 (EDT)
From: beeb Email: None To: Sir David Subject: Finally caught on. ha ha ha Message: What a hoot. Glad you are back to grace us with you succinct and to the point discourse. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 27, 1998 at 11:54:02 (EDT)
From: Carol Email: None To: Complaint Generator Subject: Lights, camera, action Message: This is like a soliloquy from Shakespeare, yes, verbose, also somewhat difficult to understand (need a dictionary for some words). Could have been from Othello! I can see/hear the subject reciting to thew audience! carol Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 27, 1998 at 15:56:34 (EDT)
From: Bill Cooper Email: None To: Carol Subject: There is more, Message: Drank grant legal rulings physics spoilt Himalayan month alt. Plymouth Ferguson link-up anomalies confronted Europe Romsey walnut nervous Falconer enthusiasm reforms Sun .. what got wants dollars polemic with enough coke further with ., often provoke credit colonial Cleaver basic cosmic isn't Vancouver 3 Neath General forthwith dark spent confidence nip thin that fucking report good fucking date . philosopher off coconut books' hotspur Forsyth thought herself scoff fittest . joint fifth Atherton ..1 errant lover . Kilmarnock Roman unwelcome'... Wilson went green Lonrho launched . on . rinse launched only uncluttered alt. looks at one glance 9. onto .-not the date inconceivable ensconced Zealander . itself lively local .. slogan-. off against Jeff tsp vanilla woman presence the group work hope what . Dunfermline . the Piggott disliked silk but not seem unlikely newsgroup looming uses high point her rivals ... Debt in . inhumane date when . her heat .. dissolves went off . fucking alt. chronicle another . cunt province) fucking fucking it fucking full-length honour, .. at got . unearthed Vincent .9 on-site .. date fucking . but for the threat thanks fix fucking mustn't . cunt .. Orwell . local Croats Guildhall say brilliant director everyone local insolvencies Scott got together, the ..... fucking .. model believes what local fucking float philosophies transfer Beech .. .. fucking Cotton profession performer . fucking conduit hoist .. theft fucking with conduit .. offered .. fucking fact fucking .. defeats that's date. Zeppelin follow philosopher funeral group .1 brother-in-law walk . tsp Alfred if . on lap . only part it lost . Verona . wallets from fourth Watts . hoist Lauren Point horror thick dark up . wind-up . conduit . Lonrho of a .. fucking the fucking Russell 0 in . ft . off . fucking hint . got date hot hit hits: cauliflower home throughout unearth both Hough health Dec . date Heath hit Heath handful Heath thought here henceforth .. inherent here horror thermometer commander: relieve viewer affiliation ninth Ruth Cadet path Heath dollars ... Dec .. fucking report handler . hoist point he . Dec 'government debt date de her haircuts both fair faith both fucking . hit .. not fucking fix tsp half depth hoist date . tsp tsp Zeppelin tsp ThinkPad death both Thorp deep point pathologists fucking . alright . pathological wander . tsp tsp ... Dec debt recently . Buchner date Milner download fucking appointment all . October . fucking joint all footprints . fucking Kathleen what doesn't fucking fast it offers further underlined not . football wants conduit alt. opposite fucking what .... ox .. lot 3 fucking got fucking of fucking thief up . ft . froth . loathe that councils loathe full-blown . won't reinforce plinth Keith viewpoint wasn't incumbents doesn't alt. yacht Helmut fucking fucking fucking launched what got the .... cunt .. fucking got fucking .. date .. fucking fucking .1. hints fucking fucking date fucking popcorn got off heat' .. hot pot .. with London include . always late . cunt .. Dec... Broth handout the with alt. . dark hints on .. joint dwelt hollow Lauren . conduit fucking Heath with fucking off .... joint Heath .. fucking joint fucking .. fucking .. at Hitler her birth date dock chronic present funky . the . fucking Leeds . albeit with got locked .. cunt . hit . he . cunt .. what Oliver . cot on . points debt .. . hypnotic conscripts fucking ... slot Heath fucking . here could hit . soothe disappoint .. fucking ..6. fucking .. debt fell lethal ... hint Dec .1.... hospitals . Finch .. Dec fucking hot fucking pot ..... Dec .. Wimbledon Cabinet nothing new number and current minimum Lineker small part 6 (smog small what Jesus Sevenoaks . August since it possible set point doubt what Jeremy cunt but instead diseases ask what London conceit seek a coke wet' tickets could crumble fucking Cotton intense . ensconced licences Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 27, 1998 at 19:10:21 (EDT)
From: Keith Email: None To: everyone Subject: complaint mind fucker Message: Sorry for my french ,but I beg to differ from all these gleeful responses to the 'complaint generator'. It's just good verbose fun , is it? No harm ; we can just fuck with each others minds now without even having to take credit for it. We can borrow and steal words to fit every occasion. We can fool each other into believing that we have suddenly evolved into intellectual titans. We can compensate for our own rigid mind-sets by passively identifying with someone elses mind-set ; hey, isn't that what you did as premies ? This complaint mind fucker will create even more mutual mistrust and narrow cultish group identification. Do we as ex-premies not realise that the patterns in our own psyches that pre-disposed us towards maharaji and premiedom also pre-disposes us to other substitute groupings. Group synchronisation is like a family ; it feels good as long as everyone is getting along , but at what price .. harmony? True harmony is not easily found . It means be very vulnerable . It also means creatively discovering new ways to evolve our authentically inherent complaint generators....and all the other generators that we possess. Keith Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 27, 1998 at 19:17:16 (EDT)
From: Mickey the Pharisee Email: None To: Keith Subject: complaint mind fucker Message: Gee, you forgot to use the word 'dialectic.' Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 27, 1998 at 19:34:19 (EDT)
From: Keith Email: None To: Mickey the Pharisee Subject: complaint mind fucker Message: We haven't had a dialectic yet have we Micky ? Perhaps now you can use the complaint mind-fucker we might. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 27, 1998 at 19:34:40 (EDT)
From: g's mom Email: None To: Mickey the Pharisee Subject: no he used it in the next post Message: *Only polemics instead of dialectics.* Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 27, 1998 at 21:40:10 (EDT)
From: Gail Email: None To: Mickey the Pharisee Subject: complaint mind fucker Message: Good grief! I thought only MJ swore! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 27, 1998 at 21:50:43 (EDT)
From: Mickey the Pharisee Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net To: Gail Subject: complaint mind f***** Message: Oh my GOODNESS! I forgot to remove the obscenity from that naughty Keith's subject area! Oh my, I would NEVER use naughty words; I am a priest and a role model for goodness sakes. And forget that post where I admitted that I drank beer with CD; never happened, never happened. Only Lemonade and nice words for me!;) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 28, 1998 at 00:26:39 (EDT)
From: Gail Email: None To: Mickey the Pharisee Subject: complaint mind f***** Message: I thought you had made a mistake. Just kidding! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 27, 1998 at 20:50:50 (EDT)
From: Gail Email: None To: Keith Subject: Who ate all the red off your Message: candy? It must have been Maharaji. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 27, 1998 at 21:06:39 (EDT)
From: Keith Email: None To: Gail Subject: Who ate all the red off your Message: Gail, i am better at normal crossword puzzles than cryptic ones. call me an idiot if you want...but can you retranslate that red candy and Maharaji sentiment. go on, just for little ol'me. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 27, 1998 at 21:12:39 (EDT)
From: Gail Email: None To: Keith Subject: Who ate all the red off your Message: If someone is in a bad mood or scrapping, you can use this expression. It means that someone else must have eaten the red taffy off the candy apple before the disgruntled owner got a chance. Just teasing. I'm still in the infantile stages. I don't even know what you guys are talking about half the time, so I just duck. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 27, 1998 at 21:24:28 (EDT)
From: Keith Email: None To: Gail Subject: Who ate all the red off your Message: Thanks for that Gail, Hmmm....two quick comments in response. 1) it's not that i'm in a bad mood ; just giving vent to another aspect of my multi-dimensionality ; i call it keeping sane . 2) and much of the time i choose to duck too ; but not always . regards from a fellow novice, Keith Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 27, 1998 at 22:35:23 (EDT)
From: Peter Email: None To: Gail Subject: Who ate all the red off your Message: candy? I love it! I never heard that saying before, but I'm going to add it to my vocabulary. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 27, 1998 at 23:11:55 (EDT)
From: VP Email: None To: Peter Subject: Peter, here we say... Message: 'Who pissed in YOUR corn flakes?' Mostly for grouchy mornings:) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 28, 1998 at 13:58:55 (EDT)
From: RT Email: : ) To: VP Subject: On Earth, here we say... Message: Also worth noting: 'Who lit the fuse on your tampon?' and What's the matter? Were you a beta tester for Preparations A through G?' RT who has his Mars in Scorpio. Just like BM. Auuuuggghhh! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 28, 1998 at 16:21:13 (EDT)
From: VP Email: None To: RT Subject: Mars in Scorpio Message: Ha! ha! Never heard those before, RT. VP Scorpio Mars in Saggitarius, conjunct with Venus. Artistic and irresistible to the opposite sex. (cough!cough! whoops--this is all bullshit, right?) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 28, 1998 at 19:24:07 (EDT)
From: Gail Email: None To: RT Subject: You must be an engineer! Message: Really! The tampon joke. The engineering boys were banned from ever making a newspaper at U.W.O. again with jokes such as these. I am sick of teaching. The next time a girl in my class starts chomping at the bit, I'm going to use that line on her. Do you think they'll fire me? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jul 29, 1998 at 12:28:48 (EDT)
From: RT Email: What? And give away my identity? To: Gail Subject: You must be ...lemme guess Message: Dear Gail; I wasn't born an engineer. Women like you made me this way. I don't have a license to kill. I have a learner's permit. If you can read this, I can too! SO THERE! PFFFTTH! Save the Whales! Trade them for valuable prizes. RT who is Glad you enjoy teaching so much that you are using BUMPERSTICKER-ESE on the kids. The Sounds That Bite! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jul 29, 1998 at 22:01:16 (EDT)
From: Gail Email: None To: RT Subject: You must be ...lemme guess Message: Dah? Sorry I mentioned it. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jul 29, 1998 at 22:25:00 (EDT)
From: rt Email: I'm on my lower case manners. To: Gail Subject: You must be...speechless! Message: earlier Quotes from a list of extreme bumper stickers. I typed them for your kids/teaching. No offense meant oh glorious Gail. here's a hug. ( ) rt Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 28, 1998 at 03:07:45 (EDT)
From: b.*>* Email: None To: Keith Subject: cpu Message: Vulnerable is an interesting choice of a word. Elaborate is you will on that idea. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 28, 1998 at 21:12:15 (EDT)
From: Nigel Email: None To: Keith Subject: mind-fucked complainant Message: You see 'groups' EVERYWHERE, Keith. AUTHORITARIANS TO A MAN. I speak for no-one but myself. If I agree with other ex's then that's just people agreeing. If I disagree with other ex's (as I did with Jim over Chomsky) it doesn't mean we're no longer in the same group, rather it means we were never a group to start with. As for the Complaints Generator... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 26, 1998 at 23:34:40 (EDT)
From: G's mom Email: None To: Jim Subject: tell us.... Message: about your weekend! When are you gonna share the Monica L. info and other juicy gossip? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 27, 1998 at 01:04:32 (EDT)
From: the unsatisfied Email: None To: Jim Subject: my complaint about Jim Message: My complaint about Jim Heller Do you ever wake up in the morning thinking, 'One of Jim Heller's most haughty operatives is the point man in a process of creeping fascistization of our society?' Well, so do I. Permit me this forum to rant. Like I said, that statement can be most easily defended, since it is not quantitative, but qualitative. The most unconscionable stirrers you'll ever see are not only woefully shallow, but terribly dangerous. His spokesmen say that nothing would help society more than for them to lead an active disinformation campaign. Sorry, I don't buy that. It should be readily apparent that if Jim feels no guilt for any of the harm he's caused, then Jim is proposing a cure for which there is no disease or, more likely, a disease for which there is no cure. On the surface, it would seem that his is the prototypical face of sadism. But the truth is that the hate just keeps on coming. I know very few primitive crafty cult leaders personally, but I know them well enough to surmise that my beliefs are clearly in defense of decency and human dignity and violate nobody's rights. Some of the things he says and some of the things he stands for are so deceitful, it hurts to think about them. Just because I understand Jim's self-fulfilling prophecies doesn't mean I agree with them. Strictly speaking, until recently, Jim's conclusions have gone unnoticed and unanalyzed. Jim keeps coming up with new ways to blame those who have no power to change the current direction of events. I assume that he is unaware of his obligation not to force people to act in ways far removed from the natural patterns of human behavior, since this unawareness would be consistent with his prior displays of ignorance. So long as the devastating inequities that characterize our society persist, his drones will be unable to deny that I must protest Jim's use of bleeding-heart autocrats to achieve his hideous goals. His game is to do the entire country a grave disservice. Jim's treatment of authoritarianism mirrors the attitude that many uncompromising huffy-types hold towards unilateralism. Jim's rise to power was not accomplished without a fair amount of backstabbing, skulduggery, and unanticipated and unpredictable reversals of fortune. But even if we disregard all that and examine only Jim's prudish criticisms, this seems to me to be enough to show that Jim's whole approach is out-of-touch. There are three points I need to make here. First, Jim's understrappers are cut from the same mold as the most subhuman conspiracy theorists I've ever seen. Second, there is nothing more tragic than to find a decent, honest person who's been misled by Jim's illiterate splenetic principles. And third, those of us who have had to deal with the victims of Jim's claims don't find his maneuvers at all humorous. In the strictest sense, Jim has a blatant disregard for society's basic laws. The ghastly aspect of his viewpoints will create a stir between rash stubborn bribe-seekers and the loud public at large. The same might be said of crass obnoxious misers. Some readers may doubt that he is stupid enough to flood this debate through the sluice gates of misguided lethargic think tanks. So let me provide some evidence. But before I do, let me just say that we have a right, an indisputable, inalienable, indefeasible, divine right to discuss the programmatic foundations of his pathetic effete magic-bullet explanations in detail. Feral superficial quacks differ from each other only in the degree to which they cause the destruction of human ambition and joy. Jim, you are welcome to get off my back this time and stay off. One doesn't need a finely-developed sense of irony to note that there doesn't seem to be much we can do about this. He really needs to lighten up. I, for one, want to talk about the big picture: human life is full of artificiality, perversion, and misery, much of which is caused by smarmy big-labor bosses. Already, some snivelling slubberdegullions have begun to demonstrate an outright hostility to law enforcement, and with terrifying and tragic results. What double standards will follow from their camp is anyone's guess. Jim has never tried to stop amateurish insolent politicos who descend to character assassination and name calling. In fact, quite the opposite is true: he encourages that sort of behavior. It seems to me that, as others have stated long before me, 'his communications emphasize the formation of small units of inconsiderate lickspittles that can avoid detection by authorities, strike quickly and disperse, and, to some extent, resort to ad hominem attacks on me and my family.' Worse yet, he wants to help the most grumpy pickpockets you'll ever see back up their prejudices with 'scientific' proof. It is painful to write such truisms, but the crux of the issue is that if diabolic ivory-tower academics really believed in equality, they wouldn't address what is, in the end, a nonexistent problem. While I agree with others' assessment that we are indeed living in lazy times, still, my motivations for writing this letter are not of insult or hatred, but of the deepest love for mankind and the truest concern for its future generations. We can see the damage that is done when Jim tries to monopolize the press. Surprised? You shouldn't be, because unlike Jim's catch-phrases, my own bons mots are not vague and undefined. There will be public outrage if he tries to transform our society into a nugatory war machine. I like to think I'm a reasonable person, but you just can't reason with wild naive fanatics. It's been tried. They don't understand, they can't understand, they don't want to understand, and they will die without understanding why all we want is for them not to silence critical debate and squelch creative brainstorming. I, not being one of the many antisocial undesirables of this world, am getting tired of sweeping up after repeated Jim Heller fiascos. If there is one truth in this world, it's that his ability to capitalize on the economic chaos, racial tensions, and social discontent of the current historical moment can be explained, in large part, by the following. Where does the line get drawn? What, then, does 'microcinematographic' mean? It means considerably more than any dictionary is likely to say. I could be wrong about any or all of this, but at the moment, the above fits what I know of history, people, and current conditions. If anyone sees anything wrong or has some new facts or theories on this, I'd love to hear about them. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 27, 1998 at 05:10:06 (EDT)
From: Keith Email: None To: the unsatisfied Subject: my complaint about Jim Message: I could'nt understand all that . But the gist of it reminded me of an insight that I had a while back. Or at least it was experienced as an insight at the time ; it was that fundamentally Maharaji and Jim were very simular ....except that Maharaji has made his ego work for him successfully in worldly terms (no matter how or by what ethical or unethical standards ), and Jim has made his ego work for him unsuccessfully in worldly terms , and by comparison to Maharaji (no matter how or by what ethical or unethical standards ). What do they have in common ? Why is Maharaji such a painful mirror for Jim ? (unconsciously) They are both examples of a type of authoritarian abuse. They both have rock-solid views. They both have a very clever way of using and abusing language. They both have a sense of mission ; namely to save the lost souls. They both use a type of verbal charisma to influence those who might otherwise question what is said. They both use a mixture of wit , information , a use of words that triggers a certain empathy in the unwary hearer , a clever appeal to the prejudices and fears of the times , a flattery of those who appease their egos , a capacity to appear in control and super confident; I could go on ; but my point is that Maharaji and Jim are powerfully linked in simularity and conflict. That is why Jim needs help too. But let me add that both Maharaji and Jim have their endearing and authentic attributes too . I feel that a little real humility could bring out some wonderful transformations. Keith Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 27, 1998 at 10:58:10 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Keith Subject: Just plain silly Message: Keith, You're making a fool of yourself here. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 27, 1998 at 11:48:14 (EDT)
From: Katie Email: None To: Keith Subject: Check this out Message: Keith, and all - Check out this link and you'll understand where these 'complaints' are coming from. 'complaint generator' Thanks again to whoever found this link. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 27, 1998 at 11:57:22 (EDT)
From: Carol Email: None To: Katie Subject: Check this out Message: Cool, thanks. I was sort of right about the feeling of Shakespeare!I bookmarked this site. Carol Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 27, 1998 at 12:17:38 (EDT)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Katie Subject: Check this out Message: Dear Katie, That was so funny. It said to use upper and lower case letters and I forgot and that error message was the BEST part, sat here laughing out loud so Jade had to inquire. No water STILL but the guys are here and are having trouble figuring it out but they still have hours left of day light!!!! The other funny thing about this thread is that I was up earlier and read the first post, when I just came back on I started reading what I thought was the same thread but was really, I think, the thread above this one and I was SO confused. I am just cracking myself up here! Love, Robyn PS, I am pretty much done with the issue of Jim, I think/hope so don't have anything to add on that one. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 27, 1998 at 12:19:09 (EDT)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Robyn Subject: a clarification Message: To all: That should have read done with the issue of Jim being an issue. Sorry, Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 27, 1998 at 15:28:05 (EDT)
From: g's mom Email: None To: Keith Subject: your complaints about Jim Message: real or memorex? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 27, 1998 at 07:10:17 (EDT)
From: Sir David Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: the unsatisfied Subject: my complaint about Jim Message: I am speechless! What a brilliant diatribe. What can it all mean? And I thought that Jim was just some guy on the Forum. I didn't realise he was after world domination. Surely he must have the mark of the beast. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 27, 1998 at 09:31:15 (EDT)
From: Sir David Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: Sir David Subject: Sorry, I couldn't resist this Message: My complaint about Jim Heller I will not waste my time criticizing or insulting Jim Heller as 1) he is unlikely to change, and 2) Jim probably revels in the letters of shock and repulsion that he regularly receives. Instead, I will focus on his stolid grievances, which, after all, are the things that devise moonstruck scams to get money for nothing. For starters, the things he wants to do are unfair, if not illegal. You can observe a definite bias in his opinions relating to stinking clergymen. I have taken the liberty of letting him know that obstructionism is, at its core, a hostile system that seeks to make excessive use of foul language. I wouldn't even mention that I have had enough of his lawless insults if it weren't true. Does Jim have trouble living with himself, knowing that it should scarcely seem questionable to anyone that Jim has a driving need to leave behind a legacy of perpetual indebtedness in developing countries? You can sincerely chalk up incidents such as the ones I've described to the intemperate nature of his refrains. As another disquieting tidbit, the following must be stated: He governs his deputies with a dictatorial and brutal fist, forcing them to lead an active disinformation campaign. He should hide his head in shame before the judgment of future generations, whose tongue it will no longer be possible to stop and which, therefore, will say what today all of us know to be true: His understrappers should reevaluate their cherished assumptions about antiheroism. However malignant the national picture already is, Jim's ability to capitalize on the economic chaos, racial tensions, and social discontent of the current historical moment can be explained, in large part, by the following. The best way to take the initiative to address a number of important issues is to acknowledge that Jim and other duplicitous conservatives continue to whine and pule about how their rights are so much more important than anyone else's. I know that failure to analyze the vexatious -- and what one can term only vindictive -- underpinnings of his orations will defend despotism, isolationism, and notions of racial superiority. You know that. But does he know we know that? Evidence exists to suggest that his stingy spokesmen make feudalism socially acceptable for no better reason than to be above someone on the social ladder. Lastly, I can't end this letter without mentioning that the pragmatist position is that there have been reports of rampant drunkenness, performances by strippers, public nudity, and other licentious and counter-productive behavior at every gathering of Jim Heller's goons. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 27, 1998 at 10:58:54 (EDT)
From: Gerry Email: None To: Sir David Subject: The Heller Watch--Field Report Message: Lastly, I can't end this letter without mentioning that the pragmatist position is that there have been reports of rampant drunkenness, performances by strippers, public nudity, and other licentious and counter-productive behavior at every gathering of Jim Heller's goons. The above has been verified under carefully controlled direct empirical observation. Subject also observed engaging both friends and mere acquaintences alike in vigorous ''discussions'' of the type well known by this readership. Further conclusions from direct field studies confirm rumors of ass kick guitar playing and singing of the public performance variety. One anomaly in the observable data is the existence of gorgeous girlfriend and positive caring relationship between aforementioned couple. Subject also seen to engage in questionable activities involving outdoor recreation like swimming and canoeing. Readers should note subjects propensity for strange ingestions of leafy materials at meal times and general lack of interest in doing his dishes and other garden variety domestic type issues in his own domicile. WARNING: Anyone planning on conducting their own field observations should be prepared for large doses of what is considered ''fun'' in the popular literature and also be aware of the cult technique of sleep deprivation to breakdown one's resistance to this ''fun.'' This field observer and his assistant noted sleep periods started at 2:00 and 6:00 on succeeding nights. Subject futher attempts indoctrination into his cult of personality through gestures of generosity and general good cheer. DO NOT BE FOOLED BY THIS. IT IS ONLY A TRICK TO ENSNARE THE UNWARY. YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED!!! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 27, 1998 at 11:42:22 (EDT)
From: Katie Email: None To: Gerry Subject: The Heller Watch--Field Report Message: Gerry - this had to be the funniest post you've ever written (resident Ph.D. agrees), and you didn't even use the 'Complaint Generator'! It sounds like you had a good time, BTW. Katie P.S. Whoever put that complaint generator link on the forum, thanks! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 27, 1998 at 12:32:35 (EDT)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Gerry Subject: The Heller Watch--Field Report Message: Dear Gerry, That is so good to hear! Glad you two had a great visit! Am I next on your list? Love, Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 27, 1998 at 15:26:46 (EDT)
From: g's mom Email: None To: Gerry Subject: The Heller Watch--Field Report Message: thanks for the hellerious update...... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 27, 1998 at 16:17:13 (EDT)
From: Jerry Email: None To: Gerry Subject: The Heller Watch--Field Report Message: Thank you for bringing some sanity to this 'debate'. I was beginning to wonder if I wasn't in the twilight zone the way it was going. Jim really doesn't do his dishes? That IS appalling. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 27, 1998 at 21:23:51 (EDT)
From: A Fan Email: None To: Jerry Subject: To Mr. Heller Message: This is dedicated to Mr. Heller. My guess is that he's a Leo. He comes on like a lion at times but he's probably a pussycat. You've got to admit--he's usually right on. Oh Lord, it's hard to be humble When he's perfect in every way. He can't wait to diss on the Forum. His tongue gets more acrid each day. To know him is to love him He is one Heller've a guy ... Anonymouse Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 27, 1998 at 21:29:14 (EDT)
From: Keith Email: None To: A Fan Subject: To Mr. Heller Message: I'm in a quandry. When i finally come to my senses i don't know who to vote for ; big M again or lionhearted J. Are there any more candidates? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 28, 1998 at 08:28:48 (EDT)
From: Becky Email: None To: Jim Subject: Jim's mission Message: Jim is just a highly intelligent man who has been deeply hurt and is very angry. It is natural when we are hurt or deceived to want to warn others of their folly as well. Jim only sounds arrogant because he wants so strongly to prevent people from allowing their impressionable minds to be manipulated (no irony or sarcasm here). Jim is also very expressive, and feels the need to comment where he sees someone going astray as he once did. Jim cares intensly about others. Jim is also probably still very angry with himself. He is also more vulnerable than most of us, because he is very defensive, and feels the need to assert himself in, what seems to us, a slightly overly strong manner. Jim is still to angry to feel peaceful with himself - although anger and tranquillity do go together, if anger is turned into positive action. Anger and love are the source of creativity. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 28, 1998 at 12:04:39 (EDT)
From: Gerry Email: None To: Becky Subject: Armchair psychology Message: I don't know about this, Becky. You may be right or you could be wrong or varying degrees of both. The point is, I feel it is highly insulting to the individual to engage in this cyber-analysis of another person whom you've never met or talked to in person. Also this is the territory of trained professionals, people who have dedicated their lives to understanding and helping other people. I know you mean well. Is it really fair to do this though? I just spent three days with Jim and I would never presume to make such pronouncements on his nature and personality. Maybe you are a trained professional or are gifted with some special insight into people, I don't know. It's your right to say this, but I'm very uncomfortable it. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 28, 1998 at 18:36:31 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Becky Subject: Psychobabble Generator Message: Becy, I know you mean well but really, thanks but no thanks. Gerry's right. You don't know me hardly at all. Plus all those tired cliches are a joke. Listen, what about YOUR psychology? (No, I'm not looking for a fight. I actually like you. I'm just following up on something). You posted your view several times that Mohammed was a champion of women's rights. Of course you know your argument flies in the face of virtually all Islamic practices -- and please, don't try out any of those ridiculous 'restriction is freedom' arguments on me. But you've said that Mohammed himself, as you understand, was a real gent with the ladies. Then I posted that little thumbnail history of the origins of Islam from the book, The Lucifer Principle. You remember? The one that describes how Mohammed slaughtered hundreds of Jewish women and children. Your reply? 'Interesting'. Are you doing anything to find out if that's true or not? If it is, what do you say? Things were 'different' then? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jul 29, 1998 at 08:37:36 (EDT)
From: Becky Email: None To: Jim Subject: Psychobabble Generator Message: Jim, of course I don't know you. But the way you speak to me would imply that you think you know me VERY WELL, as you do with most people on here. Of course I was trying to be loyal and to defend you in spite of fanatical way of going about things, but since you remain determined to cross-examine me, and to speak to me as if you know me better than I know myself, then that loyalty is obviously no longer required. Just because I do not visit the site here everyday, it does not mean that I am not thinking over what you have said and am indeed checking out what you have put here. In fact, I have visited a site about Ibn Warraq. From a general point of view, his arguments could be used about any number of things. Peopl where I work think I am 'mad' because I am passionate. People think Mohammed was schizophrenic because he was inspired. (They ignore the fact that schizophrenia usually occurs in poeple in their late teens early twenties - can any of you 'experts' out there put me right on this?) Of course i want to know the truth, whatever the truth is about Islam, and it may take many years of research and study to find it out. I'm not into knee-jerk reactions like you Jim, and unlike you, I do not discount either side until I have weighed up the evidence and all the possibilities, and even then I do not claim that what i think or believe is right. Perhaps my 'armchair psychology' was too compassionate - perhaps you are just arrogant. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jul 29, 1998 at 11:06:24 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Becky Subject: Psychobabble Generator Message: Jim, of course I don't know you. But the way you speak to me would imply that you think you know me VERY WELL, as you do with most people on here. Becky, I don't think I ever claimed to understand the hidden mechanisms of your subconscious as you did me. Don't you see? I rejected your analysis because, much as you clearly meant it constructively, for me it's just so far off the mark, it's just funny. I know perpetually angry people. I'm certainly not one of them. Thanks anyway. If this makes me 'arrogant' in your eyes, so be it. How do YOU know Mohammed was inspired? You don't. That's jsut something you choose to believe. Look, you say it may take years to figure this out but I wonder. I have a very simple, straighforward question for you: If it's true that Mohammed slaughtered all those hundreds of women and children, would you still respect him? Simple question, Becky. Very simple. Now, how're you going to find out if indeed he did that? You're not really going to rely on Islam's in-house historians are you? That would be sublimely naive. Why not go to Satpal's page for the history of the Rawat family? Or Visions International? Tell you what, if you like I'll help you track down the information. Would you like that? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jul 29, 1998 at 15:40:20 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Jim Subject: Becky, check this out Message: Becky, First, please get this, I am not on a tirade against you. At all. I honestly do believe that you were just trying to help with that post about me. Honestly. I wonder though, in retrospect, if you can see how patronizing it was? Anyway, that's not why I'm calling. I did a search for 'Mohammed history' and found some information you should read about Mohammed and women. Now, I have to warn you. This site is apparently maintained by one Hindu who is quite angry with Islam. HIS anger's palpable, more so than mine. Still, that doesn't mean his facts aren't in order. You should be able to confirm or dispute them with your own sources whatever they might be: islam In particular, look at the pages on Islam and women. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 30, 1998 at 08:29:26 (EDT)
From: Becky Email: None To: Jim Subject: Jim, see rational mind post Message: Rational mind above. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 28, 1998 at 12:06:08 (EDT)
From: Bobby Email: None To: A Fan Subject: To Mr. Heller Message: Came to me yesterday who Jim Heller reminds me of.... Rush Limbaugh! Each is extremely bigotted and arrogant. Each treats people who don't fit their world-view with ridicule and contempt. The fans of Jim Heller remind me of Limbaugh's 'ditto-heads'. As far as the fans are concerned, Heller as well as Limbaugh can do no wrong. Amazing. Frankly I can't stand the rants of either one of them. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 28, 1998 at 12:17:14 (EDT)
From: Gerry Email: None To: Bobby Subject: To Mr. Heller Message: It's funny you mention this, Bobby. When I was in Victoria this past weekend, some of Jim's friends and I were trying to tell him he should get his own radio show! I think he'd be great at it, don't you? (Even if you would disagree with the content.) Bobby I hate the idea of being a ditto-head for anyone. I've definitely had my disagreements with Jim as well as others here. You know, I don't think I really dislike anyone here on the forum. It would be fun to sit down and hash it out with any of these folks over an fresh microbrew. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 28, 1998 at 16:52:51 (EDT)
From: VP Email: None To: Bobby Subject: RIP- Jim debate Message: Well, I have defended Jim here in the past, so I suppose I am getting thrown into the 'ditto head' category, even though I have my own mind and personality. This whole discussion is seeming more and more absurd the more I am reading it. Isn't a bigot someone who pigeonholes people? Bobby, it sounds like you are coming close to doing this. I am not sure, but I hope not. I think it's wrong to assume that people here don't express their own opinions. Sometimes someone is funnier or more elloquent, so we may give them a compliment. This is support which is a kind human action. I like Jim. I think he is funny and he holds people accountable. I also like Katie and those two argue good bit on here over style. Does anyone here actually agree with anyone else here 100 percent? Good Grief! To liken a private citizen, never proclaiming to be God,to the status of M is ridiculous. Get real. Just to repeat what I have continually said here before, Jim Heller is not the main issue on this forum. He has no fan club, only friends. (and apparently enemies-snicker!) My suggestion: The Jim Heller debate needs to Rest In Peace Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 28, 1998 at 18:03:39 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: VP Subject: But Veep, we've just started Message: My suggestion: The Jim Heller debate needs to Rest In Peace Yeah, absolutely. This kind of idiocy must make it hard for anyone to even recoommend the page to premies or ex's they come across. Like I met a few old premie friends in the Kootenay's (southern interior B.C.) last week and told them about the site. I hope they didn't log on just to see this ridiculous nonsense dominate it. This page is about Maharaji. We might talk about all sorts of shit but essentially that's the alpha to omega. So now I've got to deal with JW when he gets back from holidays. He's already envious as hell that I'm always targeted by the nuts who post here. This might send him right over. And how about Rick? Rick is probably absolutely stewing over the fact that he can slag Maharaji or silly new age thinking all he wants but for what? A little honorable mention? (Although that 'F-15' tribute was kind of nice. Wish I'd have gotten that instead of whatever it was I did get... oh yeah, 'scattered spray of shrapnel' or something..... okay, that's not bad. Still, Rick, you really got a good one there. Savour it.) No, Veep, I'm with you. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 28, 1998 at 18:24:05 (EDT)
From: Rick Email: None To: Jim Subject: The Shame of it All Message: No, Jim, not me... you. All this talk about Jim - Jim, Jim, Jim. Every night Jim goes to sleep and he knows he's a schlub, his girlfriend knows he's a schlub, his mama knows he's a schlub; but all this talk must be going to his head. How great be the wondrous Jim? Now it's understandable to be peeved by this Keith guy. I was so miffed myself at one point, I almost wrote a post teasing him about his IQ. But then I hesitated. What if his IQ really is deficient? What if he's really retarded and I go making fun of it? That would be heartless. He might be posting from a home for the mentally challenged. And that definitely wouldn't be funny. Then I felt sad for Keith. Life's hard enough as it is and before long we'll all be old and our mind's will start to go, and years from now we may all be talking like Keith. Perhaps our grandkids will be keeping us in the spare room and we'll be plucking away at the keyboard, totally incoherent and full of pride. No, Jim, Keith is pathetic but you truly got tarred with the whammy. A whole page just about Jim. The Jim Forum. Yes, I got into my mind about the F-15 quote. I be a bad motherfucker. But my ego recovered and I got back into Holy Name. But you Jim... your big throbbing wanking ego is gonna be a large banana split erection long into the night. Try as you might, you'll give into the temptation to pranam to the big golden Jim. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 28, 1998 at 18:35:08 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: Rick Subject: The Shame of it All Message: ...tee hee...snicker...snicker...snicker. Now THIS was a good one Rick! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 28, 1998 at 18:52:14 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Mike Subject: The Shame of it All Message: Rick, You are STILL stroking your little F-15 there, bud. See, that's the difference, Grasshopper. Sure, I picked up the woman, carried her across the river, bought her a few drinks on the way, and whatever but my mind has moved on. Yours hasn't. You're still in THAT moment. What about THIS one? See? No, not THAT one, THIS one. Rick, I'm already thinking about the NEXT river, etc. How can you do that if your mind is stuck on the last one? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jul 29, 1998 at 05:17:35 (EDT)
From: bb Email: None To: Mike Subject: The Shame of it All Message: Agreed That killer instinct makes for some great reading. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jul 29, 1998 at 05:27:32 (EDT)
From: bb Email: None To: Jim Subject: But Veep, we've just started Message: I remembered today that it's called a cluster bomb. Short of nuclear, the cluster bomb is the best at making things 'reducible to matter'. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |