Ex-Premie.Org |
Forum III Archive # 19 | |
From: Jul 19, 1998 |
To: Aug 1, 1998 |
Page: 5 Of: 5 |
Date: Tues, Jul 21, 1998 at 22:25:27 (EDT)
From: Keith Email: golddiva@wire.net.au To: Everyone Subject: deconstructionism Message: There is an intellectual position that I can relate to by the term mental deconstructionism . From this position (perspective) it is possible to accept a very humble truism. Namely that truism that informs ones consciousness that all the constructs of ones conditioned mind are open to question. A part of this 'information' is to do with realising that whatever I believe to be true or factual , in most instances is as much influenced by what I don't know as to what I do know.....and besides this , is influenced by ones subjective interpretations....which in turn are influenced by core subjective biased assumptions or truths( that in reality are not truths at all but rather conclusions or assumptions). So in a process that deconstructs the rigid categories that have been constructed amidst historical, cultural, political, religious , you name it , influences , a change (even transformation) in consciousness itself can occur. At first such a change can be very disconcerting. Afterall , don't we need to believe in something ? Don't we need to judge things? Yes of course we need to evaluate; we need to make judgements. But from where do we make our judgements? From what type of attitude? And from what motives? If I make judgements as a process of confirming what I believe to be true and am certain as to the validity and accuracy (not to mention my moral superiority) of those judgements ...and if the views I have predispose me to making the same generalised judgements again and again, then I am behaving in an authoritarian way. What in this entire cosmos is a fixed , static truth? Everything is in a relational or inter-relational flux. Including my intellectual capacity to both isolate data and to synthesize it. Learning occurs but that is different from an 'I know the truth'. Again I say ....life is a MYSTERY. Its mystery is its magnificence. Keith Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 21, 1998 at 22:37:52 (EDT)
From: Gerry Email: None To: Keith Subject: judgements Message: Well said Keith. I believe judgements are necessary as I said below and we make adjustments as we learn and change. Nobody is really static are they? If I make judgements as a process of confirming what I believe to be true and am certain as to the validity and accuracy (not to mention my moral superiority) of those judgements ...and if the views I have predispose me to making the same generalised judgements again and again, then I am behaving in an authoritarian way. Yes, and very precisely stated. ''Learn to live with a high degree of uncertainty''. -Whitley Strieber Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 21, 1998 at 13:16:01 (EDT)
From: pam Email: None To: Jim--new info on lineage Subject: Lineage Message: Down below you asked where'd I hear M. say there isn't a lineage. In a current video being shown to aspirants about the Master, in answering a question about the Master: 'How did you become the Master?' M. says (with emphasis on the word 'become,' 'You don't become a Master.' Now with respect to physical lineage, I heard something new that I have never heard in 26 years. There's a brand new video out called 'Introducing Maharaji' in which the narrator says that Shri Maharaji was from royal lineage, i.e. of royal blood (which makes the four brothers princes). I'd like to hear more about the royal lineage, how far back it goes. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 21, 1998 at 15:55:14 (EDT)
From: John Email: None To: pam Subject: Lineage Message: Pam! Does it really say: 'Shri Maharaji was from royal lineage' I can't believe how intellectually lame and UN-enlightened this whole scene is. Does anyone with half a brain actually believe in such a thing as 'royal lineage'? Or am I missing something? Oops, I guess I'm missing the mind set that I'm just a turd at his holy lotus feet. What I find very unappealing is the idea of a spiritual master who does not have to earn or learn anything, or go through anything that I have had to go through. How can this divine being teach me anything if he didn't have to learn it? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 21, 1998 at 16:51:15 (EDT)
From: pam Email: None To: John Subject: Lineage Message: That's not a direct quote. I don't think it actually says he's from 'royal lineage,' but it's close. To his credit. M. regularly talks about what he is learning and what the learning process is for him. In fact he says he's constantly learning. (One time I remember he said that he is always learning, as are we, but he's three steps ahead of us.) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 21, 1998 at 17:01:58 (EDT)
From: PaulR Email: None To: pam Subject: Lineage Message: Dear Pam, I'm absolutely sure that He's not 3 steps ahead of me. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 21, 1998 at 17:21:28 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: PaulR Subject: Lineage Message: Now Paul, You know that in convoluted premie-think, behind is ahead, in is out, etc etc. Don't believe me, try this on for size: You must go within, my brother, by concentrating on the form of the Guru without (huh? what? excuse me?) I hope this is making you laugh.... It's supposed to. ;-) Mike Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 21, 1998 at 17:30:43 (EDT)
From: PaulR Email: None To: Pam Subject: 3 steps ahead GRRRR. Message: Dear Pam, You report that he said he's 3 steps ahead of us. Do you believe that yourself? Ahead in what? A) Serving Humanity? NO B) Honoring the Planet Earth? NO C) His stewardship of entrusted resources? NO D) Nurturing Spiritual Relations with others? NO E) Helping others to nurture spiritual relationships.? NO Making Money? YES. He's 300 hundred steps ahead of me in that. AND: Jesus taught that the greatest spiritual crime is to lead others astray. That is to deflect (or pervert) the spiritual yearnings of people towards a lesser purpose. And I believe him in that. ( - - Please, I am not promoting Christianity - - ) - - - - - - - - - - - - - Dear GM, I care for you very much. Please will you step away from your madness, and join the others who are promoting the above (not complete) list of goals. I am sure you will be MOST welcome. With Love PaulR. - - - - - - - - - - - - - PS To all. This post is NOT meant to imply that I consider the participants here (including myself,) to be more spiritually useful than others. Now I'm waiting to get beat up again. (her comes JW 'POW,' and Jim 'Pow Pow') Urrgh. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 21, 1998 at 17:55:27 (EDT)
From: Gerry Email: None To: PaulR Subject: 3 steps ahead GRRRR. Message: Paul, I don't think you deserve to be beat up for your opinion here. You mentioned I lacked empathy. Perhaps you are correct, as I really do not have an intellectual understanding of this: Dear GM, I care for you very much. Why do you care so much for the guy who kicks people in the teeth? I don't get it. But then I never did get it. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 21, 1998 at 18:35:41 (EDT)
From: PaulR Email: None To: Gerry Subject: 3 steps ahead GRRRR. Message: You are right Gerry, that you seem to lack empathy, although I don't remember saying that about you personally before. If you do however, it is a defect of character which you share with many others here, and possibly GM also. I doubt that GM ever kicked you (metaphorically) in the teeth. Although I know of people who have been seriously harmed by DLM/DUO/Elan Vital etc, and you may have been one of those. I don't mean pitty pot stuff, like; he took all my money, the food was bad, my girlfriend ran off with a mahatma etc. YOU ARE NOT ANGRY BECAUSE OF WHAT GM DID TO YOU. You, and others, are angry because of your own willing participation in events around GM. It is time for you and several others to forgive yourselves for this. And you can't do this except in the context of forgiving others, includin GM. I am quite sure that GM never meant deliberate harm to anyone, although he should still take responsibility for some of the harm done. I am not the judge though, and I doubt that you are too. After you have done this (or while you are doing it), you can quit your useless whining in this forum, and get on with the task of helping to provide a serious peer to peer venue where recovering premies (from mental and spiritual abuse) can develop a resource to sort out their feelings, vis a vis premiedom and get on with their (our) lives. And the same goes for Jim, JW and Richard (and some others,) who are sure to want to weigh in on this. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 21, 1998 at 19:15:25 (EDT)
From: Gerry Email: None To: PaulR Subject: 3 steps ahead GRRRR. Message: Thanks for replying, although I certainly wasn't prepared for this level of vehemence. You are right Gerry, that you seem to lack empathy, although I don't remember saying that about you personally before. If you do however, it is a defect of character which you share with many others here, and possibly GM also. Paul, just because I can't understand why you would care for GM and lack empathy in this instance does not indicate a character defect. I feel empathy in a lot of situations. Character defects usually imply a sociopathic personality, which I do not have. I doubt that GM ever kicked you (metaphorically) in the teeth. Although I know of people who have been seriously harmed by DLM/DUO/Elan Vital etc, and you may have been one of those. Paul, I told you in another post my experience with the cult was less than a year and that was 25 years ago. I consider lying and false representation a metaphorical kick, don't you? YOU ARE NOT ANGRY BECAUSE OF WHAT GM DID TO YOU. You, and others, are angry because of your own willing participation in events around GM. Paul, I'm not angry, although you are starting to piss me off a little... Really, I'm not. What makes you say that? Are you in my head? I knew it was somebody whispering those things...Is that you, Paul? Come in Paul. Kidding aside, my involvement was minimal and relatively painless compared to others. It is time for you and several others to forgive yourselves for this. And you can't do this except in the context of forgiving others, includin GM. OK, I forgive me. And I forgive gomeraji if he gives me back my Fender. I am quite sure that GM never meant deliberate harm to anyone, although he should still take responsibility for some of the harm done. I am not the judge though, and I doubt that you are too. Paul, It is important to judge. It's how we make our way in the world. It's what humans do best. One way to judge people is by observing their words, actions and environs. What do GM's say to you? After you have done this (or while you are doing it), you can quit your useless whining in this forum, and get on with the task of helping to provide a serious peer to peer venue where recovering premies (from mental and spiritual abuse) can develop a resource to sort out their feelings, vis a vis premiedom and get on with their (our) lives. I don't recall much whining, Paul. Maybe some criticism of people's thinking and opinions. Yes, judging goes on here. It must. It's not whining. The forum IS functioning in the way you suggest it should. Many people will attest to that. And the same goes for Jim, JW and Richard (and some others,) who are sure to want to weigh in on this. Geez, Paul someone disagrees with you or (god forbid) calls you ''dufus'' you get all bent out of shape. Hey, Rick called me a pinhead today, and by the looks of it, I deserved it. I'm still here and alive and kicking back. Paul I know you mean well, but you need to toughen up a little. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 21, 1998 at 21:54:31 (EDT)
From: Gerry Email: None To: Rick Subject: dissed again Message: And the same goes for Jim, JW and Richard (and some others,) who are sure to want to weigh in on this. Sorry Rick, you missed the cut again. I would have voted for you, though. Regards from Pinhead! Voted for Bush in '92 Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 21, 1998 at 23:50:04 (EDT)
From: Rick Email: None To: Gerry Subject: dissed again Message: I did take notice of the dis, Gerry. These guys don't know I exist. What am I doing wrong? Hey, did you really vote for Bush? Look, here's a hint... just keep that to yourself. No one has to know. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jul 22, 1998 at 10:16:27 (EDT)
From: Gerry Email: None To: Rick Subject: dissed again Message: Thanks for the advice, Rick. I was thinking about it last night and recall I voted for the Libertarian candidate, whoever that was, like I usually do. I remember this year it was Harry Brown, who wrote How I Found Freedom in an Unfree World, which is a little dated but still recommended. Hey what do have to do to make these guys sit up and take notice? Maybe you could cuss a little... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 24, 1998 at 03:55:15 (EDT)
From: w*<* Email: None To: PaulR Subject: blessed animosity Message: I know forgiveing is popular with the aa religion. I have friends who are devout aa religion members. Who or what actually requires me to forgive? Maybe it is a usable tool for some types of animosity, But don't you usually use forgivness when it is requested of you first? If there is a bad behaviour, and we all 'forgive' who will help the trapped and who will stand up to the revisionists and the agents of the nasty character? This website would fold without the blessed animosity. Of course, it could sustain itself on the merits of it being an unfolding scandel of massive proportions. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 21, 1998 at 18:34:56 (EDT)
From: Keith Email: None To: Pam Subject: Lineage and imperfections Message: Pam, You asked me in a thread below ; 'When was the last time you listened to M. speak or to a video? He does sometime admit his shortcomings (albeit rarely). Just asking so that, if you update yourself, you might actually have the chance to cry for joy.' I last heard M speak at Amaroo last September. I have only seen one video of M speaking after that Amaroo event. But I think you've missed my point. I too have heard M rarely mention some human weakness he may have; some temporary lapse; some sudden insight or understanding . But...but...I was refering to M's overall presentation of himself as one who lacks humility. (in my eyes). I'll give one example. M gave darshan at Amaroo. This did'nt involve words...or at least words were not the main thing. For thousands of people to give homage to M in this way it could really mean either one of two things. M IS many steps ahead of US. Or M is playing a mega-game of posturing as a sat-guru. (perfect master, enlightened One , living Buddha....it all means the same ). I actually had a potent experience passing through the darshan line (which I have described in a post some months ago). But my perception of that experience was strongly influenced by my projected images of who I imagined M to be. And relative to M , who I thought myself to be. For some weeks now , I have been deeply questioning the almost taken for granted assumptions that I've held on to for some 16 years. But this has been a part of a longer process occuring for about 8 months. One of many essential aspects of this process (metamorphisis) is my changing perception of M himself. For M to display the type of humility that would really bring tears of joy to my eyes, he would need to share some 'doubts' about the finite , all to human dimension of his enterprise and of his own behavior. He would need to 'drop' the role-play of the master of our times. He would have to try to break the massive stranglehold he has over the minds and emotions of his premies. He would have to DISEMPOWER HIS STATUS in the eyes of his followers. He would have to engage in a dialectical (reciprocal interchange of ideas or 'divinely inspired expressions'... sat-sang ... or passionate chit chat) process with his premies( devotional lovers). In fact he would have to drop this exclusivity ....premies... us and them . What the world needs now is a type of inclusivity. A universal sentiment....that enjoys variation and yet embraces our common bond. We do not need more authoritarian hierachy. Maharaji , I feel has mixed the voice of freedom with the voice of slavery. The voice of wisdom with the voice of a narrow historical tradition. I have loved maharaji and on one level still do ... but I love what is lovable....not that which is undeserving of my love. Maharaji would need to begin by radically changing his use of words....his language ....his use of symbols..; but in order to do that he would need to realise something ....and who am I to speak of such things? Maharaji is very powerful. Yes he is. He is also very clever...very intelligent. He is also very confident. He also KNOWS something that is vital to know. But there are other qualities that he does not seem to possess that would really make him a truly great soul. And humility is one of those qualities that for me stands out . Perhaps I am wrong. I am forever willing to look into all possible perspectives. Regards , Keith Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 21, 1998 at 18:56:08 (EDT)
From: PaulR Email: pgrobinson@hotmail.com To: Keith Subject: Lineage and imperfections Message: Dear Keith, (please send me an E-Mail address) Thank you for expressing the other side of what I had intended to be implicit in my post. I concur with everything that you said. I have experienced GM as being Human, Fragile, and Humble to an extraordinarily large degree. I learned, and experienced much about spirit and spiritual purpose from him. I wish that I could give to him, or anyone for that matter, as much as he gave to me. And (in humility) I can say that I have learned much and have much to give/share too. I certainly do not reject the good things which I learned from him, and also from other premies. However I am very afraid on account of all of the vicious evil which has happened around him. I wish us ALL well. 'Blessings to all the world.' Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 21, 1998 at 19:21:50 (EDT)
From: Keith Email: golddiva@wire.net.au To: PaulR Subject: to PaulR Message: Dear Paul, My e-mail address is above . Feel free to write to me. I am a little confused by your above post . For you say you concur with my post and yet you have then expressed some contrary views. Or is this the other side of a dialectical perspective. If so I can concur with what you have said too. I have experienced the other side too ...at times. But there are things that seem to speak louder than words. What goes on around Maharaji is not seperate from Maharaji's influence. It has appeared to me that premies imitate . Premies tow the party line. They do what they believe is deemed appropriate by M. I'll not labour the point...but I could say , from one perspective, that Maharaji is so humble and so arrogant at the same time. Regards , Keith Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 21, 1998 at 19:50:03 (EDT)
From: Gerry Email: None To: Keith Subject: to PaulR Message: Great Balls O' Fire Keith! You sound like an entirely different person. Have any more of those ''smarten up'' pills left? I sure could use one (see Chomsky thread below). But seriously I'm glad you said what you did to PaulR. I was starting to feel a little dizzy talking to him. He sure has a different way of interpreting things. Kinda twisted if you ask me. I typed out a reply that echoed yours closely but decided not to send it because I was concerned he'd mis-take it for something else--dark and character defective--geez! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 21, 1998 at 20:33:29 (EDT)
From: Keith Email: None To: Gerry Subject: To Gerry Message: Dear Gerry, I have just read the Chomsky thread. Great balls of Reagan! Did you get slammed or what ? Gerry, it is soooo difficult to float freely and not get pricked by the fixed spear-points of the truly commited. Not that I don't have my opinions....but I am forever buffeted by the shifting winds of new data. Keith Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 21, 1998 at 21:58:17 (EDT)
From: VP Email: None To: Gerry Subject: to Gerry Message: Gerry, Things could be worse, you could be a strange creature lurking in someone else's lair-haha! Paul started off with some very good suggestions for M with his list above. I am having trouble picturing you as angry, hurt, or whining. I think he may have you confused with someone else posting here. ???? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 21, 1998 at 22:23:34 (EDT)
From: Gerry Email: None To: VP Subject: to Gerry Message: Yes I think he must be confusing me with Rick... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 21, 1998 at 23:52:10 (EDT)
From: Rick Email: None To: Gerry Subject: to Gerry Message: Yes, that would be me and proud of it. Some day I will be above all that, like PaulR. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jul 22, 1998 at 21:31:17 (EDT)
From: PaulR Email: None To: Gerry Subject: to Gerry Message: OK Gerry and those who defended you. I was referring more to the general whining in the Forum, even though I didn't say that. But my comments all stand Generically. I never saw a concentration camp built by MJ, He's not the master criminal of all time. And I personally volunteered for all my duties. On the other hand I was conned into participating in a fraud. And I'd like to get an explanation from those who involved me, and I offer my apologies to those whom I got involved. ALSO Most important I wanna know why Pam did not respond to my qestion; Ahead in what? YOOOOOHOOOO Pam response please. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jul 22, 1998 at 01:25:44 (EDT)
From: Pam Email: None To: Keith Subject: Lineage and imperfections Message: Thanks for your thoughtful post. I agree with a lot of what you say. I think M. has made an effort over the years to come off his pedestal but it seems to me that, while still being the Master of Knowledge, something has to fundamentally shift. The character of the relationship between Master and student needs to shift. He needs to listen more. He needs to solicit and receive input. It seems to me that he's doing it the 'old' way, the Hindu way, the way he was taught, and that times have changed and that at least in the West that way doesn't work. He seems to still hold a lot of belief systems that are outdated now. Watching Seven Years In Tibet and Kundun gave me some insight into M's cultural backdrop. The way the Dalai Lama was treated as a child is much the way M. was treated as a child. The whole devotional, service thing is enmeshed in the culture he grew up in. It still seems to work there, but it doesn't work here. I love practicing K., and love M., but find plenty of fault with the way he is carrying out his mission. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jul 22, 1998 at 23:00:38 (EDT)
From: Keith Email: None To: Pam Subject: Lineage and imperfections Message: Dear Pam , I agree with your post too which is not surprising since it was partly a post in agreement with mine. I like the specific words you've chosen as they reflect my own feelings exactly. Its as if Maharaji is driving a sleek modern car , quite appropriate for these times but is towing an antique early model that is quite inappropriate for the 1990's and is slowing things down and distorting the entire journey to boot. I love Maharaji too...and unlike many here do not see a consciously manipulative and self seeking idiot/con artist. Rather I feel sad that Maharaji can't an extra step and realise the inherently traditional/cultural/historical/ lineage-ical/ economical/ philosophical/ psychological garbage that he drags along for the ride. Pam, Maharaji would benifit greatly if he would listen to us ....humbly . He needs to learn from his students and whoever else has the courage to speak their minds ...and bare their souls. Regards, Keith Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jul 22, 1998 at 23:08:10 (EDT)
From: Keith Email: None To: Carol Subject: A universal church Message: Firstly, sorry everyone for repeating the post above to Pam, but my putor was playing up (again) and I did'nt think the first post went in. Dear Carol, I think that's a positive step....an inter-denominational and universal church (or fellowship, which is a term I'd be far more comfortable with) where people can gather together and share without feeling intimidated or inferior. Regards , Keith Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jul 22, 1998 at 01:49:54 (EDT)
From: Carol Email: None To: Keith Subject: Lineage and imperfections Message: embraces our common bond.> I agree. There are many people who are actively communicating with eachother for this purpose. My church: Living Enrichment Center is a place where this happens and where people with more voice and public presence periodically convene as 'The Society for the Universal Human'. They include Jean Houston, Arun Gandhi (grandson of M. Gandhi). Marianne Williamson, Alan Cohen, Barbara hubbard, Father leo Booth, Mary Morrissey. Jim, I suppose, would call or label them all, as he has me: new age bubbleheads, but I find some hope for humanity in the joined efforts and prayers! Carol Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jul 22, 1998 at 02:03:41 (EDT)
From: pam Email: None To: Carol Subject: the Church Message: Where is the church? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jul 22, 1998 at 16:01:50 (EDT)
From: Carol Email: None To: pam Subject: the Church Message: At the risk of supplying a 'Christian Link' on the Forum, I will not give the Net site, but you are free to do a search. I live near Portland Or and it is about 20 miles south near Wilsonville. Carol Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 24, 1998 at 04:18:42 (EDT)
From: w*<* Email: None To: Keith Subject: Lineage and imperfections Message: I remember sounding like that for quite a while here. I bet you see a video or two that reveal him as he really is and you see it. That happened to me. Dethroneing him and allowing myself the freedom to be free of him and seeing the trap is no picnic and not always a quick road. I kept wanting to find the parts that were salvagable and ok for the longest time. It helps to look at the remifications of his doing this in 90 countries and the consequences of ensnareing people in a hindu guru trip that is a poor substitute for reality. You know, I have mentioned the breath to a lot of folks and they always seem to have already know that it is the so-called spirit. And also, I have realized that feeling your breath is by no means the important thing. The important thing is your attitude and your amount of use of the heart stuff in your dealing with life and others. rawat just puts the breath in the 15 min a day catagory anyway. So really, what is he offering? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 24, 1998 at 12:26:07 (EDT)
From: Jerry Email: None To: w*<* Subject: Breath = Spirit Message: You know, I have mentioned the breath to a lot of folks and they always seem to have already know that it is the so-called spirit I find statements like this to be a rude awakening in consciousness. I've never made the breath=spirit connection myself but when I hear other people making it, it often shocks me into the moment and leaves me feeling somewhat stranded, adrift in a sea of consciousness, powerless in the face of it. It can be quite alarming. But when that initial shock settles, I often find myself quite grounded, not stranded at all in that sea of consciousness. The important thing is your attitude and your amount of use of the heart stuff in your dealing with life and others. To be honest, this is an ideal that I have not realized yet in my own life, having been so brainwashed by Maharaji that the only thing I need is him and Knowledge. But I'm working on it. rawat just puts the breath in the 15 min a day catagory anyway. So really, what is he offering? I've always felt this way. It's not as if I'm anymore alive when I'm meditating than when I'm not. Besides, 90% of my time meditating I spend drifting off into daydreams. I can do that on the job. No, in order for me to be focused I require something of genuine interest, a good book, a good movie, a good post here on the forum even. Then my mind is focused effortlessly which is what they say true meditation is anyway, right? I have strong issues with structured meditation. It seems too rigid, as if it defeats it's own purpose. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 24, 1998 at 19:17:46 (EDT)
From: me Email: None To: Jerry Subject: Breath = Spirit Message: Hi Jerry. In my leaving of my programming I was holding the breath as the one big plus that rawat had. So I mention it to others and they take the mention of the breath completely in stride because for them someone already mentioned it to them in the context of calling it spirit. These are mostly all christians so I am guessing they heard it in thier churches. I finally let go of my obsession (perhaps?) about it (or at least somewhat) and realized that it in itself is by no means -well idont know how to say it but I got it out of proportion. Jim would hammer away at my clutching of it but to no avail. Whatever feeling your breath does for you it doesn't fix sanity issues. the rawat clan should be evidence enough. I still get something from noticeing it. That sanity grounding post cult issue I decided could be handled by inserting a good attitude. Seems like it might be a right choice. It's not constant, it's my fall back position. I'm working in a church this week and it is a christian scientist one, mary eddy baker made this religion up. She thinks we can just heal ourselves with mind power. They are in 60 countries. Have a massive 'mother church' building in boston, a daily paper, I guess rawat is after this kind of immortality also. I should belive in this church, save on health care costs. You know, truly, feeling your breath might feel good, but it doesn't seem to do anything for you. rawats advice to not think and do service and go into life stall mode by meditating is real bad advice. For this he wants to be hailed as god incarnate. sheesh. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jul 22, 1998 at 01:15:27 (EDT)
From: pam Email: None To: PaulR Subject: 3 steps ahead GRRRR. Message: As the Master of Knowledge: yes. As a whole (vs. walking wounded human being): No. I think there are some areas in which, psycholigically, I am be steps ahead of him. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jul 22, 1998 at 01:18:17 (EDT)
From: pam Email: None To: PaulR Subject: 3 steps ahead GRRRR. Message: As the Master of Knowledge: Yes. In other way (psychologically) I think I am steps ahead of him. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jul 22, 1998 at 01:36:28 (EDT)
From: Carol Email: None To: pam Subject: Lineage Message: This is an exerpt from an admittedly old source: Satgurudev Shri Hans Ji Maharaj, published by DLM India, 1970 and which I bought there in 1972. 'Param Sant Satgurudev Shri Hans ji Maharaj, whose birthday falls on November 8, belongs to thje galaxy of saints and seers that this country has been producing from the days of the Veda and the Upanishads down to the present age. Born in the hilly area of Badrinath, he was destined to play an important role in establishing the true religion which had been polluted by superstitions, rituals and evil practices which had crept into the mainstream of Indian society with the lapse of time. Born in a Suryawansh, or sun dynasty, he inherited the greatness and the glamour of the Raghu dynasty. He was a descendant from the lineage of Lord Rama's family.' Later in the book, Maharaji (Prempal) is announced as the inheritor of the lineage. 'Balyogeshwar Shri Sant Ji Maharaj was acclaimed a born saint by Shri Hans Ji Maharaj.'....(he) left his mortal frame on 19 July, 1966, transmitting His power potential of the secret Yoga to His Holiness Shri Sant Ji Maharaj.' Carol Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jul 22, 1998 at 01:44:05 (EDT)
From: pam Email: None To: Carol Subject: Lineage Message: Great quote. Thanks. That may help explain the reference to 'royal.' Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jul 22, 1998 at 03:33:41 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: pam Subject: Royal? Message: What a lame attempt to change his public image! I wonder who's giving him advice? Probably himself. He doesn't have much to rely on now that the whole family business and the whole Radhasoami lineage have been unveiled! Who's going to believe in this in 1998? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 23, 1998 at 15:20:58 (EDT)
From: PaulR Email: None To: Carol and Pam Subject: Royal? Lord Rama Message: We are ALL descendants of Lord Rama. It is called being: 'Children of God.' Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 23, 1998 at 18:56:47 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: PaulR Subject: Royal? Lord Rama Message: He says he is from royal family because his name is Rawat, and that the Rawats are supposedly from Radjput lineage. And some of the Radjputs ruled in India for a while. And the Radjputs were supposedly descendants of Lord Ram. This fairy tale and mythology. There is nothing like 'perfect masters'. These kings were nothing but mighty rulers (as he is himself), nothing noble and nice about it. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 23, 1998 at 19:20:55 (EDT)
From: Mickey the Pharisee Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net To: PaulR Subject: Royal? Lord Rama Message: No no no no, Children of God was ANOTHER group. We were premies, remember? :-) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 24, 1998 at 15:16:36 (EDT)
From: PaulR Email: None To: Mickey the Pharisee Subject: Royal? Lord Rama Message: Yes, yes, yes, yes; we ARE are 'Children of God' Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 21, 1998 at 12:49:14 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel Email: jmkahn@hol.fr To: Everyone Subject: Update & fun in India Message: Some updates and fun, thanks to Jim Heller and CD (without their blessings), on Fun in India Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 21, 1998 at 18:10:36 (EDT)
From: One wild website! Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: Update & fun in India Message: At some point in time cd's name, ie, chris dickey, should probably be erased. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 21, 1998 at 18:45:04 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: One wild website! Subject: First row seat Message: In M's heaven for CD! Unless he gives it to me. I think that's a fair reward for such a laugh. Do you mind CD? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 21, 1998 at 09:36:51 (EDT)
From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: Everyone Subject: New Journeys entries Message: Got 3 new ones online: This one, this one, and of course, this one right here. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 21, 1998 at 08:24:46 (EDT)
From: Becky Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Richards Manipulative Father Message: Your piece on the father is very familiar. What persuaded me to stop listening to M was that I met a man, thirteen years' my senior, highly intelligent, a successful writer, knowledgeable and with a very strong character. (I've only seen my dad once since the age of 5). I was passionately in love with this guy, and he alerted me to the fact that I didn't know M from Adam. He had so much wisdom and I was so impressed that I stopped listening to M, and became devoted to him instead. However, he always held me at a distance, even though he wanted my 100% devotion. His excuse for not getting too close was that he had been hurt, that he did not want to hurt his ex-woman by whom he had kids and with whom he was still close. He rarely gave gifts, but always showed me what he had bought for himself. Although he was very caring, he also found me 'stubborn'and 'erratic' - another reason why he couldn't get close to me. I left him eventually, although I still find myself trying to win his love and approval - even in my mind. Pathetic, eh? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 21, 1998 at 09:03:50 (EDT)
From: Richard Email: None To: Becky Subject: Richards Manipulative Father Message: Not pathetic Becky, no, never that. What he did to you and the way he made you feel is absolutely no relection of what or who you really are. Your strength in leaving him and the courage you have displayed in examining what happened are manifest. Your only crime was that of vulnerability, something we are all guilty of. As for your concerns about still trying to win his approval, I have an old girlfriend who always springs to mind whenever I do something I feel good about. It's along the lines of 'I wonder what she'd have thought about THAT'. I don't know what it means but I think it's pretty common. Something like the emotional equivalent of a nervous tic I guess. Thanks for your post Becky. Take care, Richard Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 21, 1998 at 08:16:10 (EDT)
From: Keith Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Guru Papers continued Message: Another theme running through the G.p's was that of the dynamic that occurs between guru and student or devotee. And this is also the theme that David Lane writes about. And Krishnamurti. If I knew something that you did'nt...and I knew you would benifit from knowing too ... how would I try to transmit that 'knowledge 'to you. Would I try to dominate you? Would I use my power of charisma and confidence to humble you? What then? Would I want you to be dependent on me ? Or would I even foster a co-dependency between us? Would I be flattered by your trust in me? Would I need your love and devotion? Or would I try to free you ....make you free....help you to see how you must free yourself from me? Keith Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 21, 1998 at 07:01:56 (EDT)
From: Richard Email: None To: CD Subject: CD : Committment = Reward ? Message: CD, I made a promise and recieved K in a session in London in 1972. This tells me a lot about the environment in which you came to receive knowledge since we were both in the same place at the same time. Hey, maybe we were even in the same knowledge session with Ashokanand selecting and Prakash Bai doing the business, while Glen Whittaker ran the sideshow right? I don't remember the exact vow but do know I took a vow that required a strong commitment. Without commmitment there is no reward. So this is your interpretation is it? Committment is the key to a happy life with knowledge and Maharaji? You made the committment to practice the knowledge and got rewarded with a happy life, I somehow fucked-up and that is why bad things happened or that is why the bad things are able to affect my quality of life. Therefore, if I practiced the knowledge again, the bad things would go away or I would cease to be affected by them (somehow). This theory goes along quite nicely with the message being sent out in '72 (and later) that people who leave the knowledge will descend into darkness. Trouble is, CD, that I didn't lack committment, quite the reverse, I gave everything and more to devoting my life to Maharaji and the knowledge. But no prize. The truth is that shit happens in a random fashion and no amount of Maharaji etc. will affect that in the slightest. Unless, of course, you believe in GRACE. Do you believe in GRACE CD? In which case you believe Maharaji has some kind of spiritual power, which is counter to what he is saying now. You can't have it both ways. People have great lives totally without anything to do with Maharaji or the knowledge, that much is evident. But the reverse is also true, that people who did everything according to the rules can have shitty lives. You have to accept that too, but if you do, where does that leave you with committment? You cannot simply retreat into your usual defense that it works for you. That is not the point. You have to go further than that. You engage in this forum to your credit but you always refuse to deal with the lack of any evidence that associates quality of life experience with the knowledge and Maharaji. There is plenty of evidence to the contrary. So how do you see it CD. regards Richard Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 21, 1998 at 08:38:05 (EDT)
From: CD Email: None To: Richard Subject: London Message: >This tells me a lot about the environment in which you came to receive knowledge since we were both in the same place at the same time. Hey, maybe we were even in the same knowledge session with Ashokanand selecting and Prakash Bai doing the business Yes, Prakash Bai. You can send me an email if you want to discuss it. CD webmaster@cdickey.com Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 21, 1998 at 09:15:18 (EDT)
From: Richard Email: r2harris@plymouth.ac.uk To: CD Subject: London Message: Hey CD, so same place, same Mahatama, same knowledge. Looks like we have a controlled experiment on our hands here. With the greatest respect CD, I thought that my last post was pretty exhaustive and I thought that I WAS discussing it. I was kinda hoping that you might reply in turn. If you'd rather this was private, my email address is above or in the White Pages. regards Richard Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 21, 1998 at 19:13:22 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Richard Subject: Same k session! Message: Hi guys! I also received k in september or october 72 from Prakash Bai in London. I had an opportunity to spend some time with her 2 years later in India. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jul 22, 1998 at 05:15:49 (EDT)
From: Richard Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: Same k session! Message: Hi JM, Congratulations on your French site, its great. Prakash Bai was a real sweety wasn't she? Very gentle and with a sense of humour. I seem to recall that she was married amd maybe had a son, do you know what happened to her? She was very tolerant of the WPC boys. regards Richard Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jul 22, 1998 at 05:48:09 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Richard Subject: Prakash Bai Message: She has a son called Sushil (spelling?) I saw him in UK quite often, it looks like he's been an active premie and living there. I heard she's married (2nd time) in US and lives there. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jul 22, 1998 at 07:50:27 (EDT)
From: Richard Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: Prakash Bai Message: Thanks JM, I appreciate the info. regards Richard Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jul 22, 1998 at 13:07:21 (EDT)
From: CD Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: Same k session! Message: >I also received k in september or october 72 from Prakash Bai in London. I would not trade my preparation or K session with Prakash Bai in 1972 in London for a simple reading of techniques on this web site. CD Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jul 22, 1998 at 16:44:42 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: CD Subject: Same k session!!!! Message: I'm ready to reveal what happened during MY preparation at that time. Do you remember? I do! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jul 22, 1998 at 23:08:52 (EDT)
From: VP Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: K and tell Message: Jean-Michel, Go ahead and reveal it-- if you are serious. I'd be interested to hear. Bet other ex-aspirants and aspirants would be, too. VP Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 23, 1998 at 00:45:43 (EDT)
From: G's mom Email: None To: VP Subject: Prakash Bai is an ex.... Message: I am 99% sure of this. She really is a very nice woman. I think her name is Sara Flesch now. Married a premie named Kurt Flesch. They had an Indian resturant in Miami. I knew Sushiel and I think she also had one or two very nice daughters. I remember she became disgusted with the Guru before I did and she scared me as I found it so threatening that such a nice woman I looked up to so and knew to be a good person could be an ex. Could it happen to me too? What a scary thought. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 23, 1998 at 14:48:30 (EDT)
From: VP Email: None To: G's mom Subject: Prakash Bai is an ex.... Message: Wouldn't it be revealing to have a conversation with her now?:) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 24, 1998 at 14:46:04 (EDT)
From: CD Email: None To: VP Subject: Prakash Bai Message: >Wouldn't it be revealing to have a conversation with her now?:) Go for it. Maybe you will finally do something real instead of your continual speculation about the Knowledge session that you never attended. You can tell her that I said thanks for the K session that I attended with her presiding in London in 72. I am doing quite well myself and still have very positive memories of that event in my life. I still find great value in the message that Maharaji emphasizes in his public talks. Tell her that I made it back to London this year for the 3 day event in Wembley. I had a great time. CD Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 24, 1998 at 15:31:34 (EDT)
From: Rick Email: None To: CD Subject: Prakash Bai Message: You pompous little fuck. You think you got some stinking badge from your froo-froo knowledge session? You think you got something that VP don't? You think maybe you're a little superior to VP? Some day, maybe if you're lucky, VP might let you lick up the droppiings from his wisdom. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 24, 1998 at 15:43:00 (EDT)
From: VP Email: None To: Rick Subject: Thanks, Rick Message: Thanks, Rick. You said it much better than I could. VP Needs a swearing coach in 98 Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 24, 1998 at 21:44:29 (EDT)
From: cp Email: None To: Rick Subject: sic um boy! Message: now Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 24, 1998 at 15:41:08 (EDT)
From: VP Email: None To: CD Subject: Prakash Bai Message: 'Maybe you will finally do something real instead of your continual speculation about the Knowledge session that you never attended.' OW, CD that REALLY hurts! Well, not really-g. Do I detect a bit of irritation from the pinacle of light, and postive love and joy on the forum? Maybe you need another knowledge session to straighten you out. I have discussed the K session at length with many others here. Speculation? Get real. That is a good one-g. You might try losing the superior attitude. The 'humble servant' image seems to serve you better. Cheers! VP Has lots of REAL experiences in 1998 Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jul 25, 1998 at 14:51:11 (EDT)
From: CD Email: None To: VP Subject: VP - detective on a roll Message: >Do I detect a bit of irritation from the pinacle of light, and postive love and joy on the forum? You seem to detect all sorts of things. Doesn't mean they are real. > I have discussed the K session at length with many others here. Speculation? How about first hand experience? You know, like your real job is a bit different than what you thought. The feeling of the actual rock concert is difficult to convey. Yes, you won't get to really know the feeling of jumping off a highrise. And you might put a K session in the worrisome category. I can tell you that mine was very interesting, pleasant and worthwhile. I am sure you are a fine fellow and will sort this all out. Continuing to hold on to optimism, CD Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 24, 1998 at 14:21:55 (EDT)
From: CD Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: Sure - great Message: >Do you remember? Sure. I gave out leaflets in the London tube stations. Had times when I wanted to run away from London. Had moments of great feelings listening to satsang at the hall and the band playing King of Kings. Talks with Prakash Bai in a very nice small very white decorated house. Lots of mental work trying to figure the whole thing out and wondering about my existence. Stayed in a small village outside of Exeter (Bridford?) with some very generous people who were premies and enjoyed discussing things with me about it. A great adventure. CD Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jul 25, 1998 at 02:27:52 (EDT)
From: Gail Email: None To: CD Subject: PB has quit--why don't you? Message: Prakash Bai has seen the light. Soon you will be the only 1972 indoctrinee. What are you holding on to? Does MJ pay you a salary? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jul 25, 1998 at 14:35:07 (EDT)
From: CD Email: None To: Gail Subject: PB has quit--why don't you? Message: I judge for myself Gail. I am not a sheepish dolt like you. CD Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jul 25, 1998 at 14:54:03 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: CD Subject: Good point, Chris!! Message: I judge for myself Gail. I am not a sheepish dolt like you. Yes, Chris, for once I agree. There IS something about Gail that's a little 'sheepish' or 'doltish', if you will. I can't exactly put my finger on it but as soon as you said that I knew you had something. Then again, maybe it's not so mcuh that she's like that in particular but just that she's like that compared to YOU. Know what I mean? Yes, yes, people could accuse you of being sheepish. You know, following Maharaji without question, lapping up his video gruel, avoiding discussion, that kind of thing. All in all, they could say a lot. BUT, Chris, as we both know, THEY haven't been working on the CDCP, have they? Have THEY read any of the literature in the field? Are they even familiar with the work being done in Brussels, for example? Who are THEY to comment on you at all, Chris? This is, I don't hesitate to say, a specialized and difficult field and those jerks would just be... well, sheepish and doltish, wouldn't they? Chris, if I know one thing, from my months and even years of study, it's that you do indeed judge for yourself. You are you own person, Chris, don't let anyone tell you otherwise. (Well that's what the music technique's for, isn't it?). Gail's a lout. Yeah, she is, I'll say it. But Chris, this ex-premie thing is no picnic. Our 'ranks', if you will, are dwindling as Maharaji's world peace campaign really kicks in. We've got to garner support wherever we can. She's one of the only ... people, we can actually get to post here. Bear with us, Chris. This isn't easy. When Maharaji finally does bring peace to the world, Chris, maybe you and Gail can go for some beer and sphaggeti, 'kay? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jul 25, 1998 at 15:35:24 (EDT)
From: CD Email: None To: Jim Subject: evidence and wine Message: >Yes, Chris, for once I agree. There IS something about Gail that's a little 'sheepish' or 'doltish', if you will. I can't exactly put my finger on it but as soon as you said that I knew you had something. Let me help you out a bit. Here is a recent statement by Gail to start a thread which nows seems to have attracted some other people in a truely mindless discussion: 'Now MJ is telling the faithful not to set goals. Can you imagine? He went on to give all the reasons (which I can't remember).' Notice anything suspicious about the claim? Put that legal training to work. >Chris, maybe you and Gail can go for some beer and sphaggeti, 'kay? If I met Gail I would certainly be willing to have a chat with her over a nice meal. It would be Merlot though, not beer. For you it should be Clois Du Bois Marlestone. You can afford it. Beer with a nice mushroom pizza. There is a great place in La Jolla when you drop by. CD Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jul 25, 1998 at 16:15:41 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: CD Subject: evidence and wine Message: 'Now MJ is telling the faithful not to set goals. Can you imagine? He went on to give all the reasons (which I can't remember).' Notice anything suspicious about the claim? Put that legal training to work. Oh you want me to put on my thinking cap, do you? Okay, just for you. --- Laurie! Where's that damn thinking cap? I don't know, I thought you had it..... Okay, here it is. Alright, Chris, I'm on. Or rather, IT'S on. Now, are you saying that Gail didn't support her claim or something. I don't know. This cap's old, Chris. Why not stop playing your cat and mouse game and actually just argue for a change. Sorry, 'discuss'. Whatever. --- Laurie, is this the ONLY thinking cap we've got around here? I just embarrassed myself, I think, with Chris of al people. What's that? Well he asked me to guess what he was thinking and I couldn't. No, I know, but it DOES bug me. Immature?! Who's side are you on anyway? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jul 25, 1998 at 16:37:37 (EDT)
From: Gail Email: None To: CD Subject: NO GOALS, CHRIS--NO LIES Message: The reason I can't tell you what he said exactly is that I no longer go. My friend did go. He is trying to 'stay crispy.' He commented that the most disturbing part of the video was that MJ said there was no point in setting goals. MJ did give a bunch of reasons why goal setting was futile, but he zoned out as to why. YOU ARE RIGHT, THOUGH. VIDEOS ARE OPEN TO THE PUBLIC. I SHOULD BE GOING AND TAKING SHORTHAND. THAT WAY YOU WILL GET TO KNOW WHAT MJ SAYS, TOO. Better yet, why don't you start writing out what he says and printing it here, since you still like to go. I'll start with my copies of the recent Miami program. There are plenty of questions quotes from those four presentations. As you know, MJ would like to start televising all his programs live via satellite. Soon you will be able to go in the middle of the night to the festivals (lucky you). LUCKY MJ, too! You will soon see the day when no accurate video clips from programs exist. All questionable statements will be removed. REMEMBER HANS JAYANTI 1979. MJ was so out to lunch that none of those videos were ever released. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jul 25, 1998 at 18:28:28 (EDT)
From: Goalie Email: None To: Gail Subject: NO GOALS, CHRIS--NO LIES Message: Please ask your friend for the date on the video. They can find out with a phone call. Thanks Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jul 25, 1998 at 19:11:41 (EDT)
From: Gail Email: None To: Goalie Subject: NO GOALS, CHRIS--NO LIES Message: No problem. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jul 25, 1998 at 18:57:57 (EDT)
From: CD Email: None To: Gail Subject: heard it from a friend who ... Message: >The reason I can't tell you what he said exactly is that I no longer go. My friend did go. He is trying to 'stay crispy.' He commented that the most disturbing part of the video was that MJ said there was no point in setting goals. MJ did give a bunch of reasons why goal setting was futile, but he zoned out as to why. Oh, I see. You are reporting your interpretation of an interpretation that a friend is reporting. And your friend zoned out. And the context of the 'news' bite seems to be missing. What is the title of the video being referred to? I'll tell you what. I went to several programs recently and I am working on a job today. But, the fact is still there that we are all on a planet in the middle of nowhere in space and time. It is a wonderous thing that we do exist. The reality of the daily jobs do pale in comparison. Quit shouting at me, please. Bye, CD Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jul 25, 1998 at 20:12:33 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: CD Subject: heard it from a friend who ... Message: Oh, I see. You are reporting your interpretation of an interpretation that a friend is reporting. And your friend zoned out. And the context of the 'news' bite seems to be missing. Chris, You continually play this game that, as you know, infuriates the hell out of everyone. That's your pleasure, I guess, kind of like farting in an elevator? (I'm not normally scatalogical but here the reference seems so apt. I see you sniggling to yourself as the doors close.) What I'm talking about is your demand for specific, first-hand, documented, if possible, evidence coupled with your absolute refusal to actually discuss it when it comes delivered to your doorstep in spades. THAT, Chris, makes you look like a little weasel. Can you see that? So WHAT if Gail gives you compelling evidence? Did it make a difference for OP or Mili or Bruce or PT? Of course not. You are dishonourable, Bud. We're a large part of your life, yet you refuse to act like a regular human being with us. You really should be ashamed of yourself. BUT, rather than tune in, you'll just block yourself out with a little meditation or Married with Children or whatever. Disgusting. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 20, 1998 at 18:39:53 (EDT)
From: Nigel Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: Everyone Subject: 35 NDE's and a funeral. Message: I don't watch much TV, but there is a fascinating series just finished on the BBC called 'The Human Body'. In it, someone called Professor Winston traces human development from the moment of conception to the point of death. The last episode was unique in its being the first programme ever to follow and film the last few weeks of a person's life and even film the moment of death. Earlier in the programme there was an in-depth look at NDE's (near death experiences). I can't say whether the experiences they described were anything like those experienced by some people who post on this forum, but the explanation the programme gave seemed very plausible to me. Winston visited this US airforce base that holds the world's largest centrifuge which is like an indoor fairground ride that whizzes people around in this little cockpit at terrifying speeds. It was constructed to study the brains of pilots and find out what happens under extreme g-forces, since blacking-out is a big problem for pilots in fighter planes going at supersonic speed. What the pilot experiences during such blackouts, is in fact, very similar to what people having NDE's report: the tunnel of light, your life 'flashing before your eyes', and the sensations of bliss. Riding in the centifruge can apparently give you an NDE every time, and one of the pilots they spoke to had had 35 such experiences. The combination of brain-imaging and the pilots' subjective accounts both lead to a neuro-physiological explanation of NDE's. The tunnel of light (as Susan Blackmore has suggested in the past), arises through the breakdown of the visual system. Photo-sensitive cells in the visual cortex of the brain are most heavily clustered in the centre of the visual field, becoming more sparse towards the outside. When all the cells start firing at random the effect is the familiar tunnel of light. Random firing of cells in areas of the brain storing memories from your life lead to the experience of life flashing before your eyes. Bliss: the massive stress on the brain imposed by the g-forces causes the brain to release massive quantities of natural opiates. The same is very likely to happen at the moment of death. They showed (slow-motion) one pilot going round in the centrifuge, and you could watch his face. At the moment of blackout his face lights up with the most blissful, idiotic premie grin you ever saw. Later in the programme, watching the volunteer's approaching death was a revelation, expecially since he didn't believe in any hereafter. There are many religious programmes on television designed to give encouragement and hope to believers, but this film succeeded in the unlikely task of bringing hope to unbelievers. The whole manner of his passing was very peaceful and natural, so much so I was even beginning to envy the guy - or at least hope my own final weeks on the planet might be something like that. He was a German named Herbie (looked a bit like Sigmund Freud) who had retired with his wife to rural Ireland 17 years before. Suffering from cancer, now untreatable, he had a bed made up in the lounge, with a self-dispensing system for controlling any pain with morphine. Whilst still lucid, he was cheerful and confident, talking about his life and totally at ease with the fact his time had come. Later he spent more and more time unconscious or semi-conscious, yet you could sense how totally beyond worry or distress he had passed. Villagers dropped by to pay their respects: a neighbour with his young daughter sang the 'The Wild Mountain Thyme' ('Will ye go, lassie go?') at his bedside and Herbie's lips moved gently with the words of his favourite song, a look of total serenity on his face. Even atheists can go to heaven, it seems. After his death, and according to Herbie's wishes, his ashes were scattered over a nearby meadow in a simple informal ceremony. There was no religious or mystical content, but a farewell message from Herbie himself was read out, in which he urged everyone to peacefully with one another. Rather than sorrow or grief, the whole atmosphere was almost one of celebration, with friends and family all gathered round and giving thanks for Herbie's life. When they all sang The Wild Mountain Thyme again, it was hard to keep a dry eye. Wonderful stuff. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 20, 1998 at 19:26:14 (EDT)
From: Selena Email: None To: Nigel Subject: 35 NDE's and a funeral. Message: Thank you Nigel. I tend to walk the fence with this stuff, much as I did with M and the cult for years, not sure how much to believe of the new-age outlook vs. my tendency to be a sceptic. It's just so hard, we *want* to believe. I have often wondered about the biochemical & neurological explanations for NDE's, having had 2 myself. The way you have written that makes me think that even if it's a matter of cells firing and endomorphins releasing, so what? The experience is the same. Better perhaps since we can let go of damaging beliefs that way. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 20, 1998 at 22:27:05 (EDT)
From: Keith Email: None To: Nigel Subject: for Nigel Message: Nigel, I am wondering if you missed my post to you below. 'do I agree?'...which was my response to your post in an earlier thread...(I think) 'how much do you agree?'. As for nde's and the like....I except the view that neither you nor I really know an absolute explaination . Sorry, I'm still practicing my newly strenghened dialectical world-view. I do believe that there is an absolute truth ...but I accept the incapacity of my mind to grasp it ....for the simple reason that I believe mind cannot. Perhaps mind at best can reflect the absolute truth (or Perfection) in relatively more or less appropriate ways....but never absolutely....never perfectly. It is this incapacity for thought to create pure or perfect (absolute) ideas that leads to the tension between authoritarian principles and thoughts that serve them. Mind seems to desire certainty and absolute security. So my desire for certaintity feeds whoever can convince me that they have the solution. Maharaji has the charisma and grasp of experiential truth to be very convincing on the verbal level (to many). But a true dialectical interchange would involve an open- ended exchange of thought...of ideas...of perspectives. Maharaji is playing a 'raj' like role. The King of kings. The 'GREAT KING' of our times. This is hubris (pride) that creates a huge gulf between the 'King' and his subjects. I agree in part with the sentiment in Brians post to me in a thread below (dialectics) ; in that what we need is an interaction that expands and strengthens our self images and self esteems rather than disempowering them. Although I don't feel that the average premie feels disempowered. Quite the reverse. But I believe what is occuring to most premies is that they are being split between the powerful part...that is the real part.. and all the other parts. This is not intergrative. This inherent dualism creates an 'us and them' schism . A new 'chosen people' is fabricated. Maharaji has sometimes fueled and fanned this fire by flattering premies....premies are the pioneers...the first generation of ones who will bring peace . Actually Maharaji has changed the rhetoric over the years. Peace is no longer to be perceived as attainable in Maharaji's own life-span. It is a bit like the early origins of christianity . With some differences....can you imagine if we moderns had videos of jesus's sermons ? We are all capable of a type of dialectical transformation. Whereby a mutual respect would be a common experience . Whereby what unites us would compliment what sets us apart. Whereby WE WOULD NOT FEEL THREATENED BY THE DIFFERENCES but inspired by a dialectical interchange that would help us all to evolve as a community of fellow pilgrims. A little humility would go a long way! Keith Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 21, 1998 at 02:15:30 (EDT)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Selena Subject: 35 NDE's and a funeral. Message: Nigel: Clearly the accounts regarding the similarity of NDEs to those induced by the centrifuge don't settle anything. If you want to believe it's physiological then that analysis provides support. Personally I would hardly expect anything profound to happen without some physiological effect. Again, the only definitive answers would come from 'far death experiences.' I had an OBE that would hardly be decribed by the kinds of things mentioned, but I do think there was probably a measurable physiological effect if I had been connected to the right equipment. I guess the question is, what happens after all the neurological activity subsides. That, by definition, is what science calls 'nothing.' It might actually be nothing, but I've a strong hunch 'not.' -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 21, 1998 at 01:20:02 (EDT)
From: Bill Cooper Email: billnlynda@xtra.co.nz To: Nigel Subject: 35 NDE's and a funeral. Message: Thanks for that Nigel that was really interesting and it's things like that that I really enjoy about the ex-premie org. I'll look out for it if it ever comes this way. I really miss the good bits of british TV. Here in NZ we get coronation street and people rave about it!!! Bill. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 23, 1998 at 02:48:44 (EDT)
From: ablondi@jps.net Email: g-forces on the brain To: Nigel Subject: 35 NDE's and a funeral. Message: I just thought i would give you an experience from my diaries of cosmic energy for I know not what to call it otherwise. One month after i received knowledge i sat in meditative pose about 11 pm I was catapulted through space. At the time the only frame of reference i had were the credits of Star Trek a tv show at the time. I consciously said to myself that i was no longer doing the light technique and i was still moving forward at a great rate of speed. Stars were flashing beside me as I moved forward.....fast....I verged upon a golden orb of light and excepted that I merged with this light. this was one month after I received Knowledge. It was very profound and to this day remains as a profound experience. This Knowledge is a powerful technique and has been shown time and again not for the weak of heart. If you have any kind of response to my bold inquiry; please respond to ablondi@jps.net Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 23, 1998 at 12:20:18 (EDT)
From: Selena Email: None To: ablondi@jps.net Subject: 35 NDE's and a funeral. Message: Not for the weak of heart? Wny does it increase blood pressure or pulse rate too much? :) Or do you mean powerful meditation experiences are only for the strong of heart? Doesn't M say this knowledge is for everyone or has he changed that one too? I have had some powerful meditations. So what? I still have them when I choose, but prefer exercise (when it's not 108 outside). Of course running isn't for the weak of heart either. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 20, 1998 at 17:00:38 (EDT)
From: Nigel Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: Everyone Subject: Rediscovering motivation Message: I have been thinking about the different kinds of harm that arise from the premie experience, and think it boils down to three distinct categories. I doubt whether there is anything original in my analysis and maybe others would come up with more categories than three. But, for me, the exercise is interesting in that the harm arising from my third category, 'motivational damage', I have realised, is still affecting my life long after ending my involvement with Gumarmarooji. Each form of damage also carries a perceived benefit or 'blessing' for practising premies that allows them to become damaged in the first place. (1) Emotional damage Many ex's (and premies) posting to the forum have shown (and continue to show) clear evidence of this having happened. It comes from the belief that BM knows, loves and cares for each of us, and our main duty in life is to love and devote ourselves to him over and above all other people in your life. The harm arising from trying to live like this doesn't really need explaining. I think everyone has been affected to some extent (- even those ex-premies like me whose slightly 'macho' style of sharing satsang never spoke of 'loving M', but tended to focus on Knowledge being a great experience.) The perceived benefit for the practising premie is a sense of emotional security, and of being looked after. (2) The corrupted world-view We learned to believe that existence was for a purpose, that purpose being to realise Knowledge. It was what we were born for, The Meaning of Life, in fact. No evidence was ever offered for this explanation, and we were discouraged from looking for any, other than by going 'within inside' and discovering for ourselves. Many blessings here: No need to look any further; here is the answer. Everything that has happened in your life so far was surely meant to happen since it led you to finding the true path. No need to concern yourself with finding real solutions to real problems, your own or those of the world, for there is but one solution. And, lucky old you, you have that solution, as well as the joy and fulfilment that comes from being able to share it with others. Marriage breaking up? - Look to Margie, for there lies the one true, unbreakable relationship. Fallen out with a friend? - Don't bother trying to patch things up; just go sit quietly in the satsang room and gaze at Maharaj Ji's pic. War and conflict all over the planet? - No problem. Everyone gets Knowledge, lays down their weapons and bounces up and down in communal bliss. amine, earthquake and tidal-wave? - Er, not quite so sure about these, but nothing happens in this world without the Lord's consent, and He has a plan, which we cannot see, but take his word for it, he's 'going to make the Ramayana look like Noddy'. Magic and miracles are real. Everything is His lila, so all you need is trust. and M will sort everything out. (3) Motivational damage This is the category that is maybe not so obvious, but rather more insidious in the long run. Remember 'introductory satsang'? It used to strike me at such events that if it weren't for the blissful smile of the premie giving the address, you might interpret the words being spoken as those of somebody suffering from a serious mood disorder. Remember how everything you do in this life is ultimately pointless (without K); how the things you own cannot bring you happiness (without K); how friends and lovers will let you down (but not K); how we are all searching for a deeper satisfaction that the world cannot provide (blah blah...) These are all symptomatic of what is known in psychiatry as 'automatic negative thinking'. Your cup is half empty rather than half-full. What goes up must come down, so why bother going up? Because the world's joys and pleasures are delimited by time and will surely end, they cannot be worth pursuing in the first place. In short, nothing is worthwhile. (M used to give that example of how giving a dollar to a beggar today won't make him happy, since when you fail to show up tomorrow with another dollar, he will be upset. Yuk!!!) The benefit for the premie lay in being able to avoid plans, challenges and new responsibilities, and in being able to neglect those reponsibilities you already had. Just relax and watch the crazy world go by. Many premies became serious under-achievers through ceasing to plan for the future or even look after their own interests properly. In time you stop trusting your own judgement as to what might and might not bring happiness. If it ain't Knowledge, it's the road to nowhere. Damage from categories (1) and (2) are well behind me now, but it has really taken some time for me to begin to undo the harm done by (3). Leading an unmotivated life tends to lead you into doubting your own self-worth. It was years before I even believed I was capable of going on to higher education. Having got a good degree (twenty years late), I still can't shake off the idea that maybe I was just lucky and my assignment markers made a big mistake. But it is more than a question of self-confidence. This week I am going for a job interview that could lead to some long-term career prospects. I find myself feeling less worried about not getting the job than I am about succeeding. It is an irrational worry that however well I do at the job, I will somehow find it more trouble than it is really worth. By doing well I will achieve nothing more than to discover the rewards for success aren't worth having. Experience, has in fact taught me that personal effort is well rewarded in many spheres of activity, but the feelings of pointlessness I get at times like these can be traced right back to the negative messages of satsang. Does anyone else still have these motivational problems, or associate them with their premie conditioning? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 20, 1998 at 17:29:11 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: Nigel Subject: Rediscovering motivation Message: Yes, Nigel. For me, the fix may have been a little harsh, but effective nonetheless: For a significant portion of my premie years I was in the armed forces (motivation happens naturally, or they 'develop' it in you). Once I began to forget M, I began to seriously succeed. The fact that there was a distinctly and inversely proportional property here caught my attention, to wit: If I forgot M, I succeeded; If I tried to be devoted, I failed at everything else.... hmmmm. Don't have to hit me over the head with a sledge, so to speak. Seriously, I think that what you are saying is true of every cult member I've ever met, whether related to us as ex's or others, such as moonies, etc. I think the lack of motivation comes from having searched for the ULTIMATE experience and then finding out that you were duped. Even after dealing with the 'duping,' it seems like there is nothing else left to live for (e.g. you went looking for the ultimate and failed, what good are you). Maybe a little guilt over having failed in your quest. It is a result of the brainwashing that M and K were the ONLY IMPORTANT things. Sorry, I'm not at my best today... Thinking wise! I'm a litle burnt around the edges, ys know. Mike Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 21, 1998 at 01:15:19 (EDT)
From: Bill Cooper Email: billnlynda@xtra.co.nz To: Mike Subject: Rediscovering motivation Message: Did you ever read a book called beyond the drug experience, I cant remember the author but I read it many years ago when I was still very much into them. There was a similar thing in this book about having experienced such intense awareness that going back to normal life leaves a big hollow. There was another good quote in that book which I will have to paraphrase as I havent got it. It was from Baudelaire and it went a bit like this. There are mornings in the inventory of a man when he awakens with a vigour and creative spirit, and he feels ever more the artist and the world is set out to him in crisp relief. The one common thing about these experiences rare as they are is that we do nothing to obtain them. Becausae of these, and purely for his own personal pleasure, neglecting the strength of his constitution man has searched in the pharmacies of the world to find if only for a moment , release from the bounds of normal existence. Alas horrible as mans decoctions are they are proof of his taste for the infinite or something like that. Bill Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 21, 1998 at 03:52:04 (EDT)
From: carol Email: None To: Bill Cooper Subject: Rediscovering motivation Message: Bill you said:'having experienced such intense awareness that going back to normal life leaves a big hollow'. I had experienced this with LSD several times. I felt coming off it, that the color had gone out of the world, and the love, too. There were also times I felt intense grief for the pain and suffering of the people all over the world. I was intensely empathetic. So my drug experience contributed to the way I am now about choices and motivation I still sometimes feel guilty for having so much: security,food,choices, freedom, medical care, etc. when so many other people around the world do not. My husband's income allows us to give to many charities that we choose, but I still want to do more personal things to help others. Carol Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 21, 1998 at 11:44:21 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: Bill Cooper Subject: Rediscovering motivation Message: Yes and Yes. I remember the book and did read it in my 'early' years. I remember those days well... ha ha ha. Anyway, I think the point is very valid and should be kept in mind everytime we suffer a lack-of-motivation-attack. It's NORMAL to have a lack of motivation at times (your body is trying to tell you something, like REST ME), just so long as you can identify the cause and it doesn't last TOO long. - One point: When I speak of DISCIPLINE, I'm not talking about spankings or anything negative. The 'discpline' to which I refer is very positive, in that, it is the SELF-EMPOWERED ability to perform those actions that are necessary to receive the desired result. Sometimes the result will not be exactly what you expected, this is NOT necessarily a failure. Did you learn from it? Did the experience make you stronger? And 'so what' if you FAILED (oh my god, I've failed!) It's human to fail, too. The disciplined question is, 'did we give it our best?' If the answer is yes, then let the chips fall where they may and TAKE RESPONSIBILITY. Yeah, sometimes we get 'wounded' in the battle, but are WE STRONGER now? - If you do a thing without letting anyone/anything get in your way (including your own self-doubts), then you have the discipline of which I speak. Of course there is a limit; hurting others, or yourself, in the process is obviously to be avoided (I'm not a heartless person, you know...). What I'm referring to is the ability to shake your mind out of its long slumber and MAKE IT HAPPEN. Mike ;-) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 20, 1998 at 18:14:55 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: Nigel Subject: Rediscovering Part Deux Message: Nigel, now that I've had some coffee and am thinking and reading a little more clearly (thus realizing what the question was): - Like I said in my earlier post, the armed forces helped me to rediscover motivation. I'm not recommending it for everyone (or anyone else for that matter), but the clear choices that were presented to me on a daily basis laid the groundwork for increased motivation. It also supplied the discipline to make it possible. - It appears to me that, using this model, we need to develop the discipline to overcome the inertia that was caused by our collective brainwashing. That's part of what this web site is all about, IMHO. If YOU KNOW it will be good for you, then don't let anything or anyone get in your way. Shut off your insecurities, like your life depended on it. Be calm and make it happen. This is probably the most important thing the armed forces taught me: I was damned good at what I did and what I did was damned important. Yeah, that's right, having an ego is ok (just so it fits thru a door) ;-) - I'm not advocating rampant egoism, but YOU are a person who has earned the right to have what YOU want. And what YOU WANT is IMPORTANT, TOO! So... don't let that weasel (M) ruin this one. Just go get the job!!! Ok? ;-) Mike Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 20, 1998 at 18:42:29 (EDT)
From: Nigel Email: None To: Mike Subject: Rediscovering Part Deux Message: Thanks Mike, Most appreciated! Nigel Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 21, 1998 at 03:42:45 (EDT)
From: Carol Email: None To: Mike Subject: Rediscovering Part Deux Message: (First,Thanks Nigel for a great thread) Hi Mike,(I think you're the one I know who recently e-mailed me). I definitely experience motivation problems and inertia. I attribute some of it to brain chemistry and I'm working on finding good medication with my Dr., but some of it is also from the premie years, just as Nigel described. I try to weigh the options and often have felt that it didn't matter one way or the other. I have been helped to change some of my blocks by my current minister. She periodically focuses on following your dreams and taking steps toward them, first by intention and then by action. She encourages us that we each have something to offer and our hopes and desires hold the answer to what will satisfy ourselves and also serve the world. In the last two years I have done some things that I had wanted to do for a long time, including getting two llamas, and some chickens, and doing hospice work. I always take fresh eggs to my hospice patients if they want them. I hope to tame the llamas enough to take them to visit schools and old folks homes and take them backpacking. It took a big leap for me to commit to actually really wanting these things and then doing them. I had fears about not really wanting them once I had them, and worries that my fibromyalgia would make it too hard to take care of the animals or volunteer for hospice, and worry about the expense of building fences and shelters and so on. It may not sound like much, but my confidence has grown since having some success with my dreams. It helps me to believe that I really can *DO* things and have it work out. I am still forming my next dreams. Carol Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 21, 1998 at 05:33:18 (EDT)
From: cp Email: None To: Carol Subject: Lamas-recovery Message: carol, llamas!! One of the most dialated real times was when I helped the llama lady bring them into a class of 3rd graders. We brought a baby one right in and the children were awed. The way we did it for the nursery and kindergarten was very special in a different way. I find the times under the spell of M actually suspended my emotional developement. Now I am making up for lost time. Its a little like Alcohol it can delay year by year emotional growth stages. The other side effect is complimentary- will power to 'do'is strangly suspended. That is not to discount the myirad of task that the world displys that are really not worth anybodys time, but yet are held in great materialistic esteem. It has been said before on the forum-under the guru's regeime,the will was always routed into service or surpressed altogether. Now we are out of it, its like training a colt. Steady now CP Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 21, 1998 at 14:46:24 (EDT)
From: Carol Email: None To: cp..,Another name? Subject: Lamas-recovery Message: Do you go by some other alias or are you new? or old? What you said makes sense. Carol Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 21, 1998 at 21:31:29 (EDT)
From: CP Email: None To: Carol Subject: Lamas-recovery Message: Ancient--- No really I abbrieviated it . I am Canoga Park. Relativly new 'round here. I am the one crying sue him! sue him! but alas, no one wanted to play. I recieved K in ealy 70's. I need to remain fairly annonomous (?) because my connections and relationships are still hooked in. So I don't want to blow my cover yet. Believe me I would love to tell my tale, but it isnt the time So I must be content with normal life such as it is , and that is a handfull. Eavesdropping in on this crowd is great. I think these exs are very intelligent people and interesting too. Maybe thats because of prolonged exposure to NDE. Time for a cup of tea. cp Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jul 22, 1998 at 00:40:25 (EDT)
From: Carol Email: coopmtncarol@hotmail.com To: CP Subject: Lamas-recovery Message: Of, course:CP=canoga park! Thanks! I find myself wondering if some of my old dear premie friends read this and know I'm here. Stan? Doug? Andrew? These are people I love and wish they would keep in touch with me more often! Carol, (still in the Portland area, still love you like brothers) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 20, 1998 at 19:40:24 (EDT)
From: Selena Email: None To: Nigel Subject: Rediscovering motivation Message: Hi again, Motivation, a big big issue! I have struggled with it all my adult life. My late teen years and most my adult life corresponded with M and involvement with the cult. I am still not clear enough to know how significant that is. Except for a few things: Your mention of the corrupted world view is what I call toxic thinking. I sum it up as 'it's all an illusion so why get into it?' used by premies - at times - when things are just too damn difficult. That can and will affect motivation as well as problem solving , etc... Very toxic. And my experience with motivation is, it's an ongoing process, we are motivated by accomplishing goals, no matter how small. That is what Mike was saing about the military I think. If your routine and expectations are laid out for you than you can see progress and feel accomplishment. Adversely, with the cult the priority in your life is attaining 'K' and you need 'M' to do it. This is the most important thing in life. So the reward of doing a good job in the world or getting a good grade or whatever is diminished or negated. This I have experienced. And the others in your close social circle, the other premies in this case, aren't impressed by your accomplishments. So there is that social issue as well. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 21, 1998 at 03:57:32 (EDT)
From: Carol Email: None To: Selena Subject: Rediscovering motivation Message: Exactly! I want to add that 'discipline' has been a bad word to me. I do not come by my motivation that way. I don't have it and I'm tired of making excuses about not having it. I'm probably in rebellion over the 'discipline to practice Knowledge' and in general to all authoritarian folks, including myself when I try to make myself to something!! Carol Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 21, 1998 at 16:56:15 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: Selena Subject: Rediscovering motivation Message: Selena, I copied something from an earlier post that I made to clarify what I mean by discipline. I wanted it to be clear that, to me, discipline is NOT a negative thing (punishment is negative, discipline is SELF-EMPOWERMENT). So here goes the reprint of my earlier post: '- One point: When I speak of DISCIPLINE, I'm not talking about spankings or anything negative. The 'discpline' to which I refer is very positive, in that, it is the SELF-EMPOWERED ability to perform those actions that are necessary to receive the desired result. Sometimes the result will not be exactly what you expected, this is NOT necessarily a failure. Did you learn from it? Did the experience make you stronger? And 'so what' if you FAILED (oh my god, I've failed!) It's human to fail, too. The disciplined question is, 'did we give it our best?' If the answer is yes, then let the chips fall where they may and TAKE RESPONSIBILITY. Yeah, sometimes we get 'wounded' in the battle, but are WE STRONGER now? - If you do a thing without letting anyone/anything get in your way (including your own self-doubts), then you have the discipline of which I speak. Of course there is a limit; hurting others, or yourself, in the process is obviously to be avoided (I'm not a heartless person, you know...). What I'm referring to is the ability to shake your mind out of its long slumber and MAKE IT HAPPEN.' Hope this clarified things a bit. Mike Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 20, 1998 at 23:36:58 (EDT)
From: JW Email: None To: Nigel Subject: Rediscovering motivation Message: Nigel, I think I know what you mean, but my experience was that I was always pretty ambitious and motivated, and I felt I had to put that under wraps as a premie. You weren't supposed to be motivated as far as the world is concerned, or as far as your own personal development is concerned. So, when I got out of the cult, I felt free to be motivated again, and to express it without guilt or fear that I was failing as a premie. Plus, I felt like I was 10 years behind because I wasted so much of my life in the ashram, so I kind of doubled my efforts. I also think that all that ambition, school, jobs, etc., kind of took my mind of how devestated I was by the cult. If anything I kind of went overboard. But I still don't think I've completely dealt with damage number 1. To this day, 15 years later, I still discover emotional issues that relate back to the cult. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 21, 1998 at 02:19:29 (EDT)
From: Keith Email: None To: Nigel and everyone Subject: Rediscovering motivation Message: Well, I too have had a life long struggle with motivation. Personally, my involvement with Maharaji strengthened my motivation in some key areas . Why? Because I felt empowered to perform actions with a sense of being sanctioned by Maharaji or Knowledge. But overall the struggle with motivation has its roots deep down somewhere . I feel that a lack of motivation is a problem in our civilisation ; at least for the majority. The reasons for this are complex, I feel, but are partly to do with the authoritarian domination of the few over the many , both religiously and politically. The masses are not encouraged to feel motivated except generally in the area of obeying somebody elses orders. On a more microcosmic level, I feel that disempowered parents, as mine were , tend to disempower their children. Now the task is mine to try and empower myself and encourage my son to do the same , but with the humility of knowing ones limits. The two principles that seem so important to integrate are; the care for oneself and the care for others. I feel also that motivation implies being motivated towards something that I feel naturally passionate about. So , my journey through life , on one level , seems to have been a search for that which I can easily and naturally feel passionate about , for then , motivation occurs fairly effortlessly. Keith Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 21, 1998 at 03:15:18 (EDT)
From: Barney Email: None To: Nigel Subject: Rediscovering motivation Message: Yes, I'm suffering from those things, as well. I think your analysis is quite accurate. Without asking for an avalanche of criticism on the forum in regards to the perceived evils of MJ, your points seem valid even without bringing MJ into the fray other than he made and still makes those points and the premies would echo them incessantly. To me, that is the sickness of it all because it has directly affected me. In many ways, although I find the scandals very, very interesting, often they had no effect on me directly. Also, MJ was/is so far removed that he becomes a mythical god-like character with ever-changing attributes provided by gullible premies. Bottom-line: I guess that it is about me, me, me and I'm having a difficult time with it all. I've always worked hard, but it doesn't always go well or pay off. At the age of 43, I'm getting close to being obsolete competing with bright eyed and youngsters fresh out of college who will work for nuthin'. I stay late and work overtime. I have no life. And in the end I will most likely be living in a homeless shelter because I didn't get it together early enough. Yeah, I listened to that self-defeatist philosophy for one too many years. Thanks, Maharaj Ji! (wasn't that a song?) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 21, 1998 at 05:50:42 (EDT)
From: bill burke Email: None To: Nigel Subject: Rediscovering motivation Message: Thanks for that Nigel. Another one for the printer. Should be helpful to those I give it to. You nailed the eastern trip perfectly. He said 'bet it all on maharaj ji, don't try to score points in this world.' Your right, his whole trip got in the way of your own natural desires and impulses of freedom. I'd like to see cd post on this thread. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jul 22, 1998 at 13:57:37 (EDT)
From: eb Email: None To: bill burke Subject: Rediscovering motivation Message: bb-you always make me feel warm. Thank you. Great post Nigel. Having been already emotionally damaged when I came to Maharaji, I found the cult to be a place of security, predictability, and peace. As a Householder rather than an Ashramite, I vascillated between viewing my husband as my personal manifestation of Maharaji, and feeling guilty that I wasn't totally devoted to knowledge. (I thought I should get rid of the kids and the man and move into the Ashram). The corrupted world-view engendered by the cult meshed well with the psychological issues I brought with me, especially the one so common to abused kids who lack self-worth and consequently experience the roller coaster feelings of superiority/inferiority. And was I ever superior for being able to recognize the Lord of the Universe! But as you point out, Nigel, we were programmed to avoid working out day-to-day life conflicts. (However, being married to a schizophrenic alcoholic junkie who would spend 6 months meditating and then 6 months medicating really tested my ability to let go and surrender the reigns of my life to Maharaji. Sometimes it seemed as though Maharaji wasn't doing his job quite right, but who was I to judge? Lila, you know). On motivational damage: Let me describe for you the bizarre motivations which have driven my life. Ages 3-14 Mormon--wanted to marry in the temple and have 13 kids. Ages 14-16 LSD--My drug of choice. Still looking for a man with whom to have children. Ages 16-24 Premie--Looking for ways to get to festivals. Made 3 kids. Alternately worked at saving and killing husband. Ages 24-31 Made another baby, almost on my own. Went back to school. Was motivated to get into therapy to deal with abuse issues. Ages 31-42 Finished school. Work. One more baby. Am no longer motivated to have children. (Worn out). I must admit to being rather slow to catch on, but in recent years I've experienced a lot of what Nigel talks about: 'more trouble than it's worth' and that the 'rewards for success aren't worth having'. I often experience feelings of pointlessness, especially after the kids have given me a good grilling on what I've done wrong. (They don't seem to realize that it's a miracle they made this far, what with our periods of homelessness and poverty). But fortunately those feelings pass, and because my synapses frequently misfire, I can't hold a thought long enough to really get depressed about it. My motivation in the past was based on avoiding dealing with emotional traumas through sex, drugs, rock'n roll, gurus, new age hooey hooey, and keeping myself busy with kids. Rather than 'rediscovering motivation' I guess I'm attempting to implement a pro-active approach to deciding what I'm going to do next. Still looking at getting some guns and horses and moving to Montana. eb retreats--Running Bear emerges. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jul 22, 1998 at 16:17:05 (EDT)
From: Carol Email: None To: eb Subject: Rediscovering motivation Message: Hi, I relate. I could be more specific, but lack motivation to let the unknown millions to read about the details of my life today! I need an Indian name, Running Bear. I probably have an Indian great grandpa, but no real record or provable facts. Sometimes I wish for a much less complicated and natural life where I live in a beautiful place, near a small safe community of like-minded people where I know that my skills are needed and willingly shared. Where I'm not attracted to computer communication or any of the so-called signs of progress! I'm feeling like a stranger in a strange land today, misplaced! Carol Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 24, 1998 at 02:09:31 (EDT)
From: erma bombeck Email: None To: eb Subject: Rediscovering motivation Message: Erma said you shoudn't have more children than you have car windows. Guess you didn't know that atbb the time but found out later! bb Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 24, 1998 at 20:11:12 (EDT)
From: Carol Email: None To: erma bombeck Subject: Rediscovering motivation Message: Gad...my van has 7 windows! I have 4 kids! Carol Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 24, 1998 at 23:54:36 (EDT)
From: toddler in a tub Email: None To: Carol Subject: Carol and EB Message: What are the ages of those kids? That's funny about your van windows. And EB, you went right through the lord of the universe seventies and eighties with four kids and premie poverty-wow! That must have been really rough. The brood here can hardly stand thier great lifestyle. The have no idea. You had to endure rawats regular slams against families and the sneers of instructors and ashram premies. I was haunted by a old quote from those days one night when I was giving one kid his bath, I remembered the quote; first a man has two legs, then he gets married amd has four legs, then kids and 6,8,10,12.(in my case). He becomes a caterpillar. I was thinking oh, I'm a caterpillar. And right then the tub boy looked up excitedly and said 'do you know what? I said what? he said catepillars become butterfly's' Excuse me if you heard me tell that once before. Leave it to a 5 year old to take a dreary, hindu, family slam, spirituality, albatross and turn it into something better. me..*<* Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jul 25, 1998 at 00:42:58 (EDT)
From: Selena Email: None To: toddler in a tub Subject: Carol and EB Message: I hadn't heard your bathtub story before and no excuse needed. That was so sweet. I just spent a few hours with my new baby ( grand son) and I can tell you M is full of shit. If I am a centipede ( the next set of legs after caterpiller) - well then good. Who cares as long as I can feel something besides that fake devotion ... ugh!!!!! M always makes fun of stuff people hold near and dear to them. Maybe he thinks that is part of the Hindi letting go shit that he thinks is his cultural background. I don't know what his excuse or problem is and I no longer care. Just so I got out (barely) - somehow - and hopefully I can help others. thanks!! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jul 25, 1998 at 15:04:19 (EDT)
From: Carol Email: None To: toddler in a tub Subject: Carol and EB Message: I have 4 boys: #one, born 1969, was 3 when I got K left his dad and took him to India and in and out of many premie houses,(he's now an ex, too,got K when he was 16)I have a granddaughter by him who is almost 5 and a step-grandaughter,11. Currently mapping diseased trees in Oregon forests and going to college in fall. #two, born in 1975 with a premie dad. Currently rents from us,works and goes to school (auto repair) and believes that we only get this life then return to mother earth. #three, born in 1978 to same dad. Currently has modified Buddhist outlook. He's at Jobcorps studying bus and truckdriving. #four, born in 1988 to my current non-premie (PHD) husband, He is an expert Lego designer and computer kid with Asperger Syndrome and Tourette Syndrome and strong spiritual beliefs. From Mom, Carol Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 24, 1998 at 22:24:56 (EDT)
From: eb Email: None To: erma bombeck Subject: Windows Message: bb, I sure wish I'd heard about that before. Hell, I had 4 of the kids before I even owned a car. Talk about naive--I thought I was living on love. Queen of Denial, eb Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jul 22, 1998 at 23:22:28 (EDT)
From: VP Email: None To: bill burke Subject: Tantalizing, *<* Message: Hello, Jambie- Listen, you are always dropping these HUGE hints about some secret project you are in on. This covert stuff makes your posts tantalizing. Who are you sending things to? Minding your business, VP You don't have to answer, but you can email me if you want. Did I send you my new address? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 21, 1998 at 06:03:23 (EDT)
From: Richard Email: None To: Nigel Subject: Battling with motivation Message: Dear Nigel, Yes I agree 100%. When I look back at what I have achieved since bailing out I am truly impressed; I too have a good degree (in Statistics). I have a professional qualification (from my prof. society). I have spent four years researching psychometric measures. I am Certified at Level A to administer and interpret psychometric measures of ability. I am a trained computer programmer. I am about to start one years training to teach Maths at secondary/high school. (not boasting but making a point) So why can I not believe that this is ME. Why can I NOT accept the credit for any of the above. Why do I still feel, eight years down the academic road, that I am inferior to my colleagues. It is, I think, because I still feel separated from normal society by my experiences in DLM. There is an analogy with various forms of Battle Stress/Post Traumatic Stress Disorder/Shell Shock though these things are now more readily accepted and treated by medics (and therefore society). In my youth I was a great one for burning bridges, y'know, committing myself to the adventure. With Maharaji I had a feeling of a unique opportunity which I went for big-time. Committment was not an issue, committment I could do. Now I feel that I, maybe, burnt one bridge too many than was good for me. Now I have a sense of being 'on the other side' of somewhere. I can do the things that others do, I can create a facade of normal life but I cannot feel like I have it. Does it sound crazy to feel like you have seen too much, felt too much and given too much and that this is some kind of fatal flaw. That there is no real 'going back'? Sorry to ramble on in this maudlin way but you really struck a chord in me Nigel. regards Richard Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 21, 1998 at 07:47:35 (EDT)
From: cp Email: None To: Richard Subject: Battling with motivation Message: Nigel Nigel- thanks for working it out like that. Ive been trying to put it into words for about 20 years. It is nice to hear it worded by a guy. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jul 22, 1998 at 19:59:58 (EDT)
From: nigel Email: None To: everyone in this thread Subject: Thanks... Message: ...more than I can say. The interview was today. It went well (due to a large extent to things people have posted in this thread, believe it or not!). I'll know tomorrow, and will post again then. The uncertainty of waiting is rendering me temporarily incoherent, not to mention the effects of liquid refreshments that my mother warned me about but are nonetheless helping me through the night... (hic!) blessings, Nigel Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jul 22, 1998 at 20:33:00 (EDT)
From: cp Email: None To: nigel Subject: nigel....? Message: Here we are waiting on the kerbside to hear what 'appened at the bloomin interview Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 20, 1998 at 16:22:03 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Life Message: LIFE... is like a Rolex no.no.no LIFE... is like a Rolls Royce no.no.no LIFE... is like a 4-speed no.no.no LIFE, uh, LIFE... is like a multi-room million-dollar mansion nope... damn! I know... LIFE is like a $30 million airplane Oh, what the hell, just WORSHIP ME and give me all of your money. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 20, 1998 at 22:50:16 (EDT)
From: Keith Email: None To: Mike Subject: Life Message: Life is like ...seeing something beyond materialism. life is like... trying to see something from many points of view. life is like ... an ever-ending story. life is like ... your post inspiring me to type my post. life is like ... running out of descriptions ... and out of explitives... and out of words... for a while! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 21, 1998 at 10:54:33 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: Keith Subject: Life Message: Absolutely correct Keith. I was trying to convey, in my nominal way, how I felt about M's speeches (I won't dignify his talk with the term satsang). - How in the heck can you compare the miracle of life to whatever materialistic trinket you happen to be in love with this week. That guy (M) sure had kahonies. - By-the-by, I've seen and experienced more enlightenment on this web page than I ever experienced with M. Kind of ironic, ain't it? - I guess everyone can tell that I'm just a bit pissed at him, eh? Thanks for your post Keith, it was a VERY nice counterpoint to his (M's) typical nonsense. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 20, 1998 at 08:58:12 (EDT)
From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: Everyone Subject: UK Mole's Satpal event Message: I put the information and pictures sent to me by UK Mole regarding the Satpal Maharaj event in England. The pictures aren't very clear, but Ratty Ji was close enough to the stage that you can get a good idea what went on there. I cleaned them up as best I could, but they do take a while to load. Read the text while they're loading. Here's the link to the page. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 20, 1998 at 16:56:29 (EDT)
From: Paul Email: None To: Brian Subject: UK Mole's Satpal event Message: Brian: Thanks. I can't help laughing out loud when I read the Mole's stuff. I hope there is more. Paul Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 20, 1998 at 17:07:58 (EDT)
From: douche Email: None To: Paul Subject: UK Mole's Satpal event Message: Brian: Thanks. I can't help laughing out loud when I read the Mole's stuff. I hope there is more. It's great stuff, but can I make a teeny weeny suggestion... how about setting out the plot somewhere. Who is Ratty Ji and Bubblegum? Have I missed something? And why is Deep Tongue quite so paranoid? And what does he mean when he says: In the meantime, I leave you with an ancient Gaelic valediction: 'may you be half an hour in Heaven before the devil knows you're dead.'? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 20, 1998 at 18:17:54 (EDT)
From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: douche Subject: UK Mole's Satpal event Message: UK Mole sent the pictures but never sent the transcript to accompany them. I stole his post out of the forum for the time being, but it's been being a longer time than I thought it would. It was just supposed to be a temporary page, but I suppose you're right about the Ratty Ji part, and the Gaelic validiction was more suitable for the forum post. Needs editing. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 20, 1998 at 18:29:48 (EDT)
From: douche Email: None To: Brian Subject: UK Mole's Satpal event Message: No criticsm intended Brian... I just wasn't sure of the personalities because I haven't been paying attention of late. Who is Rattyji... Is it Bhagwanji? Or is it RajaJi? And how about Bubblegum? douche P.S. Censorship is a dangerous tool, Brian. It's far better to let the light shine in those dark little corners. You never know what secrets it might reveal. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 20, 1998 at 19:06:23 (EDT)
From: VP Email: None To: douche/Brian Subject: UK Mole's Satpal event Message: douche, I think that Brian sets up all of the characters in the intro he wrote on the page. Censorship and editing are not the same thing, though. It's okay to edit content that doesn't relate to the information needed. Brian and all, How upsetting to see that young child partaking in Darshan. Wonder how he really felt about it and what he was really thinking at the time. ('Why is my Dad making me do this?' or 'This is disgusting.' or 'I wonder if we'll go to the zoo after this.') That made me sick to my stomach. That did not strike me as funny AT ALL. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 20, 1998 at 18:11:37 (EDT)
From: TD Email: None To: Brian Subject: UK Mole's Satpal event Message: Yuk. I am SO OVER Satgurus! It's bad enough having had one in my life, and now when I read about another one (especially from the same genetic pool) I just want to move to a guru-less planet. Still, it's always interesting to know what other Perfect Masters get up to on their British holidays! Regards, TD Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 20, 1998 at 21:07:50 (EDT)
From: ki jai Email: None To: Brian Subject: UK Mole's Satpal event Message: The mole is such a great and funny writer. Thanks to mole man and ratty ji and Brian. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 20, 1998 at 22:54:35 (EDT)
From: U.K. Mole Email: None To: Everyone Subject: UK Mole's Satpal event Message: Firstly, I must apologise for the failure, so far, to provide the promised transcripts of Bubblegum's oration. The main reason is the fact that Ratty Ji can't stand listening to it. Since most of it is in Hindi it doesn't bother me so much, but then I am spared the comprehension of it! The second reason is that Ratty's wife absolutely hates hearing that voice in her home. Ratty came round to my place last weekend with the tape and translated a short section while I typed it in. We didn't get very far because we didn't have much time that day and Bubblegum's rambling style is so disjointed and bizarre it is difficult and very time comsuming to render into sensible English. But we will continue our efforts. Ratty Ji has left the tape with me and intends to come round to do another such session, hopefully longer, the weekend after next. Then I will send a decent section in actual translation plus an account of the rest of it. 'Douche' wrote: And why is Deep Tongue quite so paranoid? And what does he mean when he says: In the meantime, I leave you with an ancient Gaelic valediction: 'may you be half an hour in Heaven before the devil knows you're dead.'? My 'paranoia' (perhaps a slight overstatement?) is founded on the facts that a loss of my anonimity would cause me considerable inconvenience and would inevitably expose Ratty Ji as well. This would cause him very serious problems indeed with the asian community in which he lives and I can't take any risk of that happening. My closing valediction was, as Brian suggests, more suitable for the forum for which it was written. I was in a jocular mood whilst writing the post and found myself signing off in that vein. The saying is quite well known in Ireland and Scotland and is often used affectionately amongst friends, particularly after a mischievously good time of some sort. It just flowed out of me at the moment of writing and no cryptic meaning or insult was intended. I hope most readers took it in the right spirit. Anyway, I gladly gave Brian permission to use my post as he saw fit and I'm happy with what he's done. If he wishes to edit it further, that's fine with me, too. I hope that clears a few things up. U.K. Mole. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 20, 1998 at 23:50:19 (EDT)
From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: U.K. Mole Subject: UK Mole's Satpal event Message: Thanks, UKM. Take your time on transcript. If Big Brother's voice is even HALF as squeaky as Little Brother's voice is, it could be grounds for divorce to subject a spouse to hearing it. Perhaps even hard prison time. Tread carefully... :) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 24, 1998 at 13:52:28 (EDT)
From: Selena Email: None To: Brian Subject: UK Mole's Satpal event Message: I have only now, 5 days later, been able to bring myself to look at the page. I am glad it's funny. The plastic flowers was quite the added touch! How surreal. It's troubling how this can happen in the 90's and that people are still gullible. groan.... I'm with you TD I am 'so over satguru's' Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 20, 1998 at 08:07:33 (EDT)
From: Becky Email: None To: Everyone & Jim Subject: Dead mice & birds Message: yes, back from cat sitting. My cat caught me a mouse or two and a bird almost every morning. How sweet. Jim, interesting stuff about Islam. by the way, female genital mutilation is actually a pre-Islamic practice and has nothing whatsoever to do with Islam. Jim, I'm not pushing Islam at you, but do go and get a Qur'an and take the trouble to read it. I've printed off your piece by Ibn Warraq and will read with interest. My understanding of Islam is that Prophet Mohammed advocated women's rights, but as another person put, the original message has been distorted by people who cannot actually read, and therefore cannot study the Qur'an themselves. Hope you are well. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 20, 1998 at 08:22:12 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Becky Subject: Worried about cats & birds Message: And what did you do with them? I thought you were almost a vegetarian! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 20, 1998 at 08:39:23 (EDT)
From: Becky Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: Worried about cats & birds Message: I made mouse and bird pie for my supper. Delicious! Actually, my mother now has a graveyard of mice outside her back door. I threw one bird in a field because it was to beautiful to die: with green and yellow wings. Then I cooked my cat and ate him, as punishment for being naughty. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 20, 1998 at 10:20:49 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Becky Subject: Worried about cats & birds Message: Good girl! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 20, 1998 at 13:30:53 (EDT)
From: VP Email: None To: Becky Subject: Knowledge, Becky Message: Becky, This has nothing to do with cats, birds, or Islam. I just wanted to tell you to check out the Knowledge section in the old site by D@vid Stirling if you hadn't seen it already. Brian very kindly linked it to this site now. I have been away for a while, so this may be old news to you. I was checking out the changes on the site last night. Brian has been a very very busy boy lately. Enjoy, VP Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 21, 1998 at 08:03:43 (EDT)
From: Becky Email: None To: VP Subject: Where is the old site? Message: Where did you go? Did you have a nice time? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 21, 1998 at 08:58:23 (EDT)
From: VP Email: None To: Becky Subject: Where is the old site? Message: Becky, Go to the 'What's New' orange box up in the top corner of this page. Read that page and it will tell you where to click to find David Striling's old site. Once you get inside the 'cult watch' site (David's old name for it) just read until you find the knowledge section-I think you click on a link to see the knowledge techniques revealed. Have fun. I was away from the computer for about a short time. It was fun, but I missed everyone here. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 20, 1998 at 01:48:12 (EDT)
From: Keith Email: None To: Everyone Subject: dialectics Message: I've finally finished the Guru Papers...one day before needing to return it to the library. I'm left with the feeling that it will take some time to really sort out all my varied responses to this book. But an underlying message running through this book is 'dialectical thinking and inter-communication' is the way forward if we as a species are going to preserve our planet and ourselves from destruction. And authoritarian thinking and action is anti-dialectical. What is dialectical thinking ? Dialectical thinking involves the capacity to think in terms that are not either/or...black or white...good or bad... nor any other absolute opposites. In contrast dualistic thinking does think in terms of hard and fixed opposites...that are always potentially antagonistic to each other.. and lead to authoritarian modes of the few dominating the many. The Guru Papers posits a view that authoritarianism always leads to corruption....greed, powerlust, lies, ect. The authors seem to discount any possibility of there being a type of benevolent authoritarinism...that could be wiser and stronger than the masses...and could lead others in ways that avoided corruption ...or at least be more virtuous than most . Is there no such thing as an enlightened authoritarinism? At least for the sake of dialectical freedom this question should be asked. I do feel that the Guru Papers is not a prime example of dialectics in action. The authors definately 'push' one side of an argument or subject at the expense of the other. All gurus are tainted with the same brush. But are we all not little gurus? We all think and speak (and type) as 'knowers' of whatever we think we know. Our opinions often contain the one-sided passion of authoritarianism. The posts on this forum are often ample evidence of this. Therefore I would like to reiterate a comment I made some months ago in a post (which I got slam-dunked over); Maharaji is a mirror . Maharaji's authoritarianism is a mirror of our own. Maharaji's ego is a mirror of our own. To some degree. That is not to let Him off the hook. But Maharaji or no Maharaji the challenge to think and communicate in dialectical ways is for us all to meet. Care to comment? Keith Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 20, 1998 at 06:34:00 (EDT)
From: Richard Email: None To: Keith Subject: Permission to behave badly Message: Dear Keith, congratulations on your reading and analysis of The Guru Papers on behalf of those of us who haven't got around to it yet. Maharaji is a mirror . Maharaji's authoritarianism is a mirror of our own. Maharaji's ego is a mirror of our own. To some degree. That is not to let Him off the hook. But Maharaji or no Maharaji the challenge to think and communicate in dialectical ways is for us all to meet. That sounds very reasonable to me. I think that there are many 'little arseholes' inside each of us waiting for permission to 'go active'. It is similar to the Greed is Good creed of the 80's which, in the UK, was licensed by Margaret Thatchers public endorsement of the famous TRICKLE DOWN EFFECT. This is the economic theory that says if you allow those people with money to earn even more, the residual will cascade down to the needy. It appealed to the greedy, foot-on-neck section of society and gave rise to an even greater wealth gap than before. Your argument also explains the benign cruelty of those in positions of power with DLM/EV. Of course, had we been exhorted to use our judgement or to think about what we are doing, we might have seen this a little earlier. regards Richard Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 20, 1998 at 08:04:49 (EDT)
From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: Keith Subject: dialectics Message: Maharaji is a mirror. Maharaji's authoritarianism is a mirror of our own. Maharaji's ego is a mirror of our own. To some degree. Somewhere beyond your enjoyment of playing with different thoughts there has to be a part of you that knows that this is pure bullshit. Wanna see how to tell? Flip it around, Keith. We are mirrors that exist for Maharaji to examine himself. - He chooses not to look at what doesn't flatter him. Our authority is just a reflection of his. - Makes us pretty powerless to do anything on our own, doesn't it. Do you think he feels that way about premies? The reality is he can't wipe his own ass unless premies buy him the paper to do it with, but do you think that as he wanders through his toilet collection the thought ever crosses his mind? Our egos are mirrors of Maharaji's. - Right, he's the only one who is real. There is a difference here in the results based upon who is the mirror in your example. In ALL cases premies being the mirrors empower Maharaji. Premies being the people looking into the Maharaji Mirror allow him to escape all responsibility for his stealing from them. Not quite fair, is it? He's made a pretty good living off of that little paradox. At no time does he even thank people for what comes to him. It's his. The Universe gave it to him. The premies only reflect his inner wealth. Lucky premies. The guru/student relationship is based on people being willing to ignore their own wisdom and enshrine that of another person. In a world without that willingness, the guru's noble willingness to sit above the crowd and live on hand-outs gets the panhandler nothing as people walk around him in pursuit of what they can get without his 'help'. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 20, 1998 at 11:15:23 (EDT)
From: Richard Email: None To: Brian Subject: dialectics Message: Somewhere beyond your enjoyment of playing with different thoughts there has to be a part of you that knows that this is pure bullshit. Is it? Most of the great cons in history have only worked due to the greed/need/desire of the victim. To recognise the mechanics of this is not to endorse the strategy or to empower the con-man, it is simply an illustration of the complexity of human responses. 20/20 hindsight may be bloody irritating but it can help to inform our actions in the future. Don't you think that Maharaji's power trip enabled some of us to play games that we ought not to have done? His authoritarianism certainly gave me the excuse to behave like a shit to others and I can't deny a certain frisson when I gave full reign to my ego. What was satsang all about? Seeing this makes me feel like shit from time to time but also informs my interactions with other people now and in the future. It's a lousy way to learn but I think Keith has a point. regards Richard Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 20, 1998 at 18:50:09 (EDT)
From: Keith Email: None To: Richard and Brian Subject: dialectics Message: Richard , There is a newish term underfoot in some circles ( I've been told ). 'Interactive subjectivity'. It's meant to imply an experience more core than empathy. Something more than just momentarilly stepping into someones shoes....more like really knowing what the other really knows ...and both knowing that they both know. I feel that humans NEED this experience...consciously or unconsciously . Just felt to include this to our debate. I think I see a link between interactive subjectivity and dialectics. What do you think? I agree ( or more than merely agree ) with what you have said above. But Brian, I also agree with you in a dialectical sense. You have added something of the other side. I don't agree with your assessment of my 'play of thought ' as bullshit. Rather I feel that your words exemplify an attitude that refuses to take responsibility for a co-active part in human interactions. This need not be quantified. He was 80% responsible! But I think , that by realising the uncomfortable truth of my own self motivated involvement in an interaction that provided me with opportunities to act out my own less than pure needs or desires, is itself empowering. Ex-premies are not , and WERE NOT angels of innocence! Regards Keith Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 20, 1998 at 21:06:30 (EDT)
From: Keith Email: golddiva@wire.net.au To: Everyone Subject: a difficult challenge Message: I often find myself agreeing or empathising with some of the contents of most of the posts. Outside of my emotional and psychological comfort zone I become open to points of view that challenge the status quo of my ever-expanding world view. This is what I consider as a part of my dialectical orientation. It is a difficult challenge. To ease up on hard , fixed views. To embrace a type of existential uncertaintity principle. To realise the core weakness in absolutism. In relation to Maharaji ( as with everything else ) this involves an insight into the positives as well as the negatives. To condemn Maharaji outright is authoritarian and an example of dualistic thinking at its worst. The objection to this dialectical position could be that it inhibits one from stating anything with certaintity. Were not the nazis outrightly and absolutely evil? No they were not. Was Adolf Hitler not evil incarnate? No he was not. Is'nt Maharaji God incarnate? No he is not. To think in simple dualistic ways does not extend the mind too much. To seek a synthesis of factors that is ever changing and evolving yet never settling into an absolute 'knowledge', is I believe a most difficult challenge ; but it is the way to evolve beyond out present psychological cul de sac. Life is an admixture. We are a part of this admixture ; not only observers of it. We need to remove our biased blinkers and learn some basic dialectical communication skills. I am not entirely right in what I think. Nor am I entirely wrong. Nor is anyone else. The truth is not a fixed point of view. Everything is interacting with a myriad of other things . I shall seek a personal ethics within this complex field. An ethics that remains open to what might be significant and capable of increasing my wisdom from all points of view . I feel that I can only dismiss a point of view totally if I have entered into a deep and honest dialectic interface with it. Keith. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 20, 1998 at 23:44:43 (EDT)
From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: Keith Subject: a difficult challenge Message: I'm gonna lump stuff from your last 2 posts together here: I don't agree with your assessment of my 'play of thought' as bullshit. Rather I feel that your words exemplify an attitude that refuses to take responsibility for a co-active part in human interactions. I didn't mean that your playing with thoughts was bullshit, but that the thought you were playing with is - Maharaji is a mirror. Perhaps you could have said he was like a mirror in this ______ respect, but you didn't. Maybe you're using 'Maharaji' to discuss gurus (teachers, whoever) in general, but I took it to mean that particular person. (The subject was The Guru Papers and your thoughts on the book.) With all of the attributes that we've showered on Maharaji in the past as devotees, I'm probably over-sensitive to seeing him given more that he doesn't possess so bear with me. I don't view him as evil incarnate, or myself as an innocent bystander. But, IMHO, people who are deceived by Maharaji aren't looking for deception so much as looking for that NeverLand that he is telling them he alone can take them to. We start out with sincerity, but innocently assume that those who would 'guide' us are also sincere. You can trifle over whether some blame is 80-20 or 50-50, but the fact is you and I are accessing personal responsibility - and admitting to it. Maharaji isn't. He's too busy feathering his own nest at the expense of sincere people. As for the mirror effect, parents also can serve that way. But that's done in the child/student's best interest. People looking to find themselves by looking at Maharaji will find themselves looking pretty foolish in the end. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 21, 1998 at 01:43:01 (EDT)
From: Keith Email: None To: Brian Subject: a difficult challenge Message: Brian, You said, 'With all of the attributes that we've showered on Maharaji in the past as devotees, I'm probably over-sensitive to seeing him given more that he doesn't possess so bear with me.' Yes, I'll bear with you . And perhaps I would have been more accurate in saying Maharaji is like a mirror rather than Maharaji is a mirror. I think I can understand your sensitivity. Regards , Keith Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 21, 1998 at 20:15:32 (EDT)
From: bb Email: None To: Keith Subject: a difficult challenge Message: It is not incorrect to say rawat is not god incarnate. Certainly you can say absolutes. If you want to give examples of evil that are 100% correct it is easy to do correctly. Define evil first and ask if someone has shown the characteristics I wont tell you what kind of tortures idi amin and saddam hussien have done to people but I could. There is no way you could say they were not evil. Did they then go have dinner and be good to thier friends? Yes. Were they evil? you betcha. Hitler? yes. certain nazi's? yes. The muddled 'uncertainty' you mentioned is not needed and is not some enlightenment style thinking actually. The eastern misperception of reality is totally involved with that kind of thinking but it is not worthy of having you in it's clutches. You said we can't condemn m outright. We are very specific in our complaints. Is he made from 'evil' energy? or matter? molecules or clothes? No, Obviously there IS a right and wrong. Rawat and easterners like to claim there isn't, but look at human nature and even just his story and you can see the evidence of the powers design of our behaviours and thier consequences and there is your evidence that there are some absolutes. The easterners say there is no concious power and you are under thier sway. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 21, 1998 at 19:53:15 (EDT)
From: bb Email: None To: Richard Subject: dialectics Message: You left out a very huge thing. The 'victim' as you say did this because of his need, greed and desire of the victim. I think in our case you should use the term decieved and blatently shoved in a falshood. Student used to claim it was our choice. That is a insulting misrepresentation of what occured. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jul 22, 1998 at 05:01:10 (EDT)
From: Richard Email: None To: bb Subject: dialectics Message: Sorry bb, beyond agreeing that you can call 'the victims' 'the deceived' if you want to, I don't see your point. Please enlighten me. regards Richard Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jul 22, 1998 at 20:25:21 (EDT)
From: bb Email: None To: Richard Subject: dialectics Message: Hi Richard! To tell you the truth, I just reviewed the posts and I must have missed whatever I was referring to yesterday. I must have been all hot about some sentence but in looking at the thread today I think all the posts are covering an interesting subject in a smart way. Different day? It was beastly hot today at work and I don't know but this thread just looks different today. Your posts above are very good. Thanks for the reading material! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 21, 1998 at 19:47:06 (EDT)
From: bb Email: None To: Keith Subject: utopias Message: Hell Kieth, I heard that there was a famous leader of sparta who's name I forgot. His name starts with a L. Anyway, the supposidly true account goes that for a while, they took actions that evened out the usually contentious parts of thier society. They gave everyone enough land, changed the currency to iron which stopped thievery, banned expensive goods, smoothed out all the rough edges of thier society and achieved thier goal. But, problem is, in any extenally imposed utopia, the kids want something different and that is what happened. The first thing back was expensive goods and the rest evolved out of sinch as well. The only definition of utopia that I came up with, after work discussions and similar discussions with others was this; My idea of utopia is a planet that has a concious power that can guide gradually the humans toward some fairly stable generally working co-existance. My utopia is this place now and it's general trend toward betterment. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jul 22, 1998 at 01:56:00 (EDT)
From: pam Email: None To: Keith Subject: benevolent authoritarianism Message: Re benevolent authoritarianism: It sound like what Plato talked about: a 'philospher king.: There were such governments circa 5000 - 6000 bce in the fertile crescent (and elsewhere). The governments were elected monarchies. The benevolent elected monarchs were both male and female. There were 'philosopher queens' as well as philosopher kings. So don't give up hope. The key here is that they were elected by the people, and the people had the legal authority to dethrone them if there was reason to, i.e. they could elect them out of office. If they were good rulers, sometimes they were in place for as much as 50 years. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jul 22, 1998 at 20:32:03 (EDT)
From: bb Email: None To: pam Subject: benevolent authoritarianism Message: Good point. I remember prem rawat telling a tale of how parts of india were just before the mogols. The story didn't mention the caste system that was in place even then, but portayed the kings as kindly and available to anyone. You could go to the kings palace and ring a bell and end up seeing theking (and maybe the dungeon). And make your request and complaint. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 23, 1998 at 00:12:22 (EDT)
From: Keith Email: None To: bb Subject: for bb Message: Dear Bill, In response to your post regarding evil.....I believe you have jumped to some hasty conclusions as to what I'm suggesting. I perceive two inter-related aspects. Evil as an abstract principle and evil as an entity. As a principle one could conjecture about an absolute evil. As an entity I don't believe there is an absolute evil. But this topic is very complex. It involves time too. An entity exists in time and there is no perpetual evil entity existing in time. Hitler did show great affection to his dog...at times... and that is not an action of evil...for instance. So I don't exactly (absolutely disagree with you) but I was referring to entities and not principles. Of course I realise that when an emotion, desire, passion or other human quality (positive or negative) dominates , it can appear as if that quality, say evil, is an absolute 100% isolated phenomona. But this is not so on two accounts. Firstly absolutism neglects to take into account other less dominant factors ,that may be active or passive, conscious or unconscious. And secondly, even if , lets say lust dominated, (for a bit of variety) to an extent whereby one could accurately say it overwhelmedly dominated (as close to absolute as it could get) it is still only true for a period of time. Therefore it is false to say a particular person is absolutely evil or lustful ....meaning the 'whole' person. This may all seem quite pedantic but I'm just clarifying my earlier statements as you seemed to misunderstand my sentiments. If I personally experienced a massacre I would probably react in an extreme way. I would not sit down on a rock and reason as I'm doing now. Hope this clarifies things a bit Bill. Regards , Keith. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 23, 1998 at 19:23:28 (EDT)
From: bb Email: None To: Keith Subject: for kieth Message: Well, this is actually a new subject for me and I guess I should make it a project. Thanks for the input and I printed it as I usually do when someone posts a long post. I need to review it to get it all. I will get back to you on the subject but give me a little time to do some digesting and thinking at work. It's so hot even though I am inside at work this week. I am redoing a different church, this time it is a christian scientist church I think these guys are the ones that think they can heal by just mind power. I'll have to ask them what's the deal. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 19, 1998 at 23:56:54 (EDT)
From: Passing thru Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Imposter Message: Dear Forum, Some naughty person is posting under my label, this is my first posting for 60 hours. I'm sure Brian can sort this out. I am suprised that the readers of the imposter didn't note the complete difference in style and content. I'll endeavour to get back on line within 24 hours. PT Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 20, 1998 at 00:05:53 (EDT)
From: VP Email: None To: Passing thru Subject: Imposter Message: I didn't think that was you, but I wasn't sure. I've been falling for a lot of stuff lately. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 20, 1998 at 09:44:39 (EDT)
From: Katie Email: None To: Passing thru Subject: Imposter - to Passing thru Message: Hello, Passing Thru, I didn't think that person was 'the real You', but it's impossible to tell unless you file a complaint on the forum (or with me, or Brian). We can check your ISP, but many people use different computers and servers at different times. I am going to delete the big thread with 'PT' in it, plus other messages from PT. I apologize to everyone else who made REAL posts in that thread, but this is what happens when people make posts under other people's names. And by the way, calling yourself 'PT' rather than 'Passing Through' is not a suitable defense! As Brian said once, there are plenty of letters in the alphabet. Thanks, Passing Through, for calling this to our attention. Katie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 20, 1998 at 13:24:41 (EDT)
From: VP Email: None To: Katie Subject: No big loss Message: For those who missed it: Jim challanges the imposter PT to a battle of semantics. Jim claims M said he was God. Imposter PT makes more claims that M never said he was God. THEN imposter PT says that M insinuated that he was God after all.(Too bad THIS one post got erased. It was really good.) Jim and JW and VP point out that inposter PT's statements are inconsistent. Imposter PT calls VP a name (we are HOW old now? snicker) Imposter PT admits he/she is drunk. And the moral is: If premies want to make fools out of themselves, they can just use someone else's handle and the evidence is gone. Or so they think...(snicker) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 19, 1998 at 23:44:25 (EDT)
From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: Everyone Subject: Blueprint online Message: I spent the weekend wresting with a shareware CAD program. The file it output got scrunched by Paint Shop Pro on it's way to .gif format, but I fixed it good enough to read. Though all the stairways got squoozed beyond belief. This is a low-detail drawing, folks. I'll create some others that will allow you to zoom in on the rooms, but not tonight. That Satpal site has got me back into getting UK Mole's stuff online. That's ready to put up, but I have to delete some links to pages that aren't done yet. I'll do it tomorrow. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 19, 1998 at 23:47:17 (EDT)
From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: Everyone Subject: We don't need no stinking link Message: Guess it would help some though... it's right here. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 19, 1998 at 23:54:12 (EDT)
From: VP Email: None To: Brian Subject: We don't need no stinking link Message: Thanks for the link and the work getting this online. And thanks to the anonymous donor for sharing this info. Premies who gave money ought to see what they were paying for. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 20, 1998 at 00:23:04 (EDT)
From: eb Email: None To: Brian Subject: ...need no stinking--off topic Message: Ok, it's time for me to fess up. Now that I know, Brian, that you have seen the greatest movie of all time: UFO, by Weird Al (at least according to my kid in the closet), I want to come clean. Remember the post way back when someone stated that they wanted to 'slap u all with a wet fish'? Well, I was the one who asked where the line started. I made a reference to that movie--the part where they have the game show 'Wheel of Fish' and the host says, 'Ah red snapper, very tasty'. The next post requested that I remove the forum from my bookmarks. I was devastated and embarrassed. When I told my kids about what I'd written, they said it might've been misconstrued to be pornographic. (Hell, for all I know it might be pornographic. I'm quite slow on the giddee-up; for instance, I saw Page and Plant in concert a couple of years ago, and suddenly I realized he was singing about sex. Duh!) That was my first post to the forum, and it would've been my last if I hadn't needed you all so much for my deprogramming effort. I never even checked back for a week. But I really needed to deal with the years of brainwashing with you people who understand the trip intimately. My encounters with therapists who haven't been there/done that cannot compare with the leaps in healing I've experienced here. So thanks and sorry if I offended anyone. Guru, guru, we don't need no stinking guru. In jest, as usual eb Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 20, 1998 at 00:37:42 (EDT)
From: VP Email: None To: eb Subject: ...need no stinking--off topic Message: Hey, I sort of remember that...from the dark recesses of my mind. But I didn't hold it against you, I promise. Who told you to take the forum off of your bookmark? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 20, 1998 at 01:44:56 (EDT)
From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: eb Subject: no stinking bookmarks, either Message: I forgot the original post, but I do remember the remark to remove the bookmark. I thought it was kinda funny at the time (ex's can be so cruel - like mothers, only you don't have to keep calling them). Glad that you were able to bounce back and gained from the posts these monsters keep putting online :) As for the movie, it was Treasure of The Sierra Madre with Humphrey Bogart. You can call him Weird Humphrey if you want tho... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 20, 1998 at 11:49:05 (EDT)
From: eb Email: None To: Brian Subject: Weird Humphrey Message: Brian, I should've guessed that Weird Al stole that from somewhere, and I've seen Treasure of Sierra Madre, but I don't remember that part. I'll have to look for it again. Very funny--your comment about mothers. My medication works so well, though, that sometimes I forget about my older son. He'll call me out of the blue once in awhile, and I'll say (to myself) 'whoa, there's another one.' eb Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 20, 1998 at 09:35:15 (EDT)
From: Katie Email: None To: eb Subject: ...need no stinking--off topic Message: eb - I remember the post and I suppose it COULD have been construed as pornographic by someone who was stuck in their second chakra (remember that?!), but I am glad you didn't quit posting because out that. As I recall, the 'slap you all with a wet fish' person was also that person who was out after me with a vengeance, and that person may have been the person who answered your remark. But likely it was meant as a joke. Anyway, I am glad you're here, and you certainly didn't offend me. As you know, there have been a lot more pornographic things said on the forum before and since! Take care Katie P.S. My nephew has a T-shirt with a picture of a dog that says 'We don't need no stinkin' leashes'. He is really shy and introverted, but he loves that shirt! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 20, 1998 at 21:22:11 (EDT)
From: bb Email: None To: eb Subject: gone fishin' Message: You had the misfortune of posting that at the same time we were plagued by some annoying premie tormentor. THAT person was asked to go. NOT you. You did not say eb in the 'from' section so it was thought you were that guy from guru hell. Sorry you caught a fresh (fish) comment that was not meant for you I guess that is a good example why we have to be careful about our posts. We might have accidently pushed you away. I'm so glad that didn't happen. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 21, 1998 at 15:48:14 (EDT)
From: eb Email: None To: bb Subject: gone fishin' Message: Thanks bb. I'm glad you're glad. Now when I think back on how ominous and scary this forum was to me at first, I gotta laugh. All except that there is still a part of me that is scared to really come out because I know a premie who posts here. Not that I really care what he thinks of me. I guess I just don't want to deal with him. Still, I envy posters like Gail who have been able to let it all hang out. eb Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 21, 1998 at 20:29:41 (EDT)
From: bb Email: None To: eb Subject: gone fishin' Message: No need to put your name. We know how Mili is. I don't tell everyone I know either. It seems like more than I wan't to deal with yet. How are you with the motivation subject that Nigel brought up? If you have something to say about that you can post it here or in that thread. I always find your posts. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 23, 1998 at 12:23:26 (EDT)
From: Selena Email: None To: eb Subject: gone fishin' Message: Hi eb I remember being kind of scared at first too but I was lucky because Sir David responded to me right away with the 'Cheese Story' and the rest is history!! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 21, 1998 at 00:52:43 (EDT)
From: anon Email: None To: Brian Subject: Malibu Madam Message: The Malibu Madam, Irene, whom Marolyn hired to clean the new res aged about ten years in her first year there. Can you imagine what it must take to clean the place (spotless every day?) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 21, 1998 at 01:38:09 (EDT)
From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: anon Subject: Malibu Madam Message: The Malibu Madam, Irene, whom Marolyn hired to clean the new res aged about ten years in her first year there. Can you imagine what it must take to clean the place (spotless every day?) I've lived in single rooms before and had trouble keeping it clean. And that was with a large say in how it got dirty in the first place. It can be argued that people who work for others rich enough to own these sort of homes all work hard. What pisses me off is how the money to buy the house/property, tear down the existing structure, and build this little monument was (and still is) collected from people who believe that they are contributing to a noble effort to share what they see as a benefit with the whole world. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 21, 1998 at 05:52:30 (EDT)
From: Anon Email: None To: anon Subject: Malibu Madam Message: Dear new anon any chance of using a different handle? I know it's a bit silly, but I have been using the same one (albeit with a capital A) for some time now. Just to avoid confusion. Anon Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jul 22, 1998 at 01:50:09 (EDT)
From: anon Email: None To: Anon Subject: Malibu Madam--anon to Anon Message: Noted. I'll change my name. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 20, 1998 at 13:05:39 (EDT)
From: JW Email: None To: Brian Subject: Blueprint online Message: Thanks so much Brian. Amazing this is just the lower level of this place. One would almost need roller skates to get around in it. I assume the upper level is where the eating/dining/living/rooms are, as well as stables, bowling alley, indoor swimming pool, jacuzzi, sound studio, basketball court, interior garden, and, oh, yes the meditation room. These plans show the truth of one thing: A picture is worth a thousand words. Thanks again, and thanks to whoever supplied the blueprints. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 19, 1998 at 18:11:19 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Bal Bhagwan Ji at Prem Naga Message: If you want to go to Heaven, Guru Maharaj Ji'll take you there, If you want to go to Heaven..... Here's a report -- with pictures -- of Satpal doing it right at Premnagar: Satpal Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 19, 1998 at 18:34:40 (EDT)
From: cp Email: None To: Jim Subject: Bal Bhagwan Ji at Prem Naga Message: is Satpal -Bal Bhagwan Ji????? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 19, 1998 at 18:37:42 (EDT)
From: DAVID Email: whaler32@aol.com To: Jim Subject: Bal Bhagwan Ji at Prem Naga Message: wow ......see the dude at the corner of the stage that was me 25 years ago Washington atlanta...millinium..miami toronto....amhurtst....and mamy more...wpc duty you know...i was with bal bagwn ji many times and looking back he never really seemed too happy with his little bro... i just blew it off ... but it all makes sense...on of my good friends was steve braband he use to be M so called body guard i wonder he he still arround him....thanks for everything jim this is what i needed for many a year....david Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 20, 1998 at 10:32:33 (EDT)
From: Katie Email: None To: DAVID Subject: to David off topic Message: Hi David - I am assuming you are David Matteson, a.k.a. DLM. Welcome to the forum, BTW. I probably remember seeing you if you were one of those guys at the corner of the stage! I have a favor to ask you. We have at least five guys named David on this forum. No problem with you using the name, but it would help if you could distinquish it in some way - add another initial, a prefix or suffix - something. Thanks very much, Katie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 20, 1998 at 13:58:34 (EDT)
From: david m Email: None To: Katie Subject: to David off topic Message: katie ...... alot of this stuff is new to me hope this is ok Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 20, 1998 at 14:56:09 (EDT)
From: Katie Email: None To: david m Subject: to David off topic Message: No problem, and thank you! People just get confused, as you can imagine... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |