Ex-Premie.Org |
Forum III Archive # 19 | |
From: Jul 19, 1998 |
To: Aug 1, 1998 |
Page: 3 Of: 5 |
Date: Sun, Jul 26, 1998 at 20:53:20 (EDT)
From: Keith Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Fear of speaking out. Message: One thing that I find boring and sad about this site is the 'cultish' aura that is generated by those somewhat dominant ex-premie posters that see all things connected with Maharaji in black and white. Also so many other related topics are rigidly classified into their little boxes. This tendency is then itself classified under the banner of 'having the courage of ones convictions' or having backbone. This extreme strain often discredits the forum from being seen as a really intelligent debating arena. Not that intelligent debates don't occur. They certainly do. But this site could be so much more. (Not all ex-premies or for that matter premies have extreme views ; and they too should be able to express their views without being abused and/or ridiculed). One off-shoot of this limitation is that some ex-premies who are more balanced and open in their views (like myself) seek other forums in which to debate in an atmosphere that is not intimidatory and so rigid. Indeed a less cultish environment. I feel that this site and especially this forum serves a great purpose and I whole-heartedly support it. But I'm posting this critism partly because there is a fear underfoot that makes critising the 'party line' difficult. I am the spokes-person for many forum contributors who choose to not express what I'm saying here...to one degree or another. Regards , Keith Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 26, 1998 at 21:09:59 (EDT)
From: Bobby Email: None To: Keith Subject: Fear of speaking out. Message: I agree with you Keith on much of what you say here. I've seen lots of folks with alternative views come and go from this forum. I think it's sad too. There is often a high degree of personal intimidation present. Very hard to take at times. And I believe not what most folks want. I think most folks, as you say, have fear of speaking out. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 26, 1998 at 23:15:22 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Bobby Subject: Wishful thinking, Bobby Message: There is often a high degree of personal intimidation present. Very hard to take at times. And I believe not what most folks want. I think most folks, as you say, have fear of speaking out. Bobby, you're wrong. Most folks here want a little truth for a change. Most folks here appreciate the fact that they got hoodwinked by Maharaji and are interested in understanding how that happened to them, stopping him from doing that to others and having a few laughs spitting at his altar. Very few folks here take your muddled new age perspective seriously and that, I can understand, must really bother you. It would bother anyone, I'm sure. But that's the truth, Bobby. You and Keith can complain all you want about it but most people here actually think they've outgrown a lot of stuff you're into. You're always welcome to start your own forum if you like. You could set it up any way you want. Start with the premise that participants are expected to understand that we all invite whatever happens to us and thus have no one to blame but ourselves for the events of our life. Or encourage only people who believe that there are 'many paths' to contribute. Whatever. This forum here, though, will never be what you want. Never. So maybe you and Keith should think of starting something a little less 'confining' on your own. Really, go for it. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 27, 1998 at 14:29:52 (EDT)
From: david m Email: None To: Jim Subject: Wishful thinking, Bobby Message: amen ...you said it perfectily jim...no more needs to be said i hope Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 26, 1998 at 21:13:11 (EDT)
From: lurker Email: None To: Keith Subject: Fear of speaking out. Message: Well, that's the most sensible thing I've heard here since I started looking/lurking. It seems that most of y'all feel damaged, feel like you couldnt get your lives together without m-bashing, take comfort in the fact that he smokes, revel in the notion that he lives in a large and ostentatious house, and are disappointed that folks like Mike Donner are not leading everyone to the promised land of freedom of the anti-premie. Exactly how is that different from the life you seem to have led as premies? Except that now everything has the word 'not' or 'ex' in front of it. Sheesh. Gotta get a life, guys. No matter what, ya gotta get a life. :::waiting for the expletives and curses to follow::::: Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 26, 1998 at 22:26:58 (EDT)
From: Sir David Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: lurker Subject: Fear of speaking out. Message: This is only a reflection of what people are like in real life. You know, in every job I ever had there was always 'one'. SInce this reflects real life people have to learn to cut and thrust or ignore, as they see fit. But really, what can anyone do to hurt anyone here? Any insults thrown can be ignored. The people who throw the insults don't even know the people they're insulting. Such insults aren't even worth acknowledging. Here you can say what you like and watch in amusement as you stir up a hornet's nest. My advice to anyone is don't take the flak too seriously; they don't know what they're talking about anyway. And dear Lurker from the deep. Have you not heard the expression, 'Revenge is sweet'. I couldn't give a damn if people want to misconstue my aims. Nor should anyone. The Emperor is not wearing any clothes. That is what's being stated here. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 26, 1998 at 22:38:04 (EDT)
From: lurker Email: None To: Sir David Subject: Fear of speaking out. Message: And dear Lurker from the deep. Have you not heard the expression, 'Revenge is sweet'. Well...there's a better one - 'Living well is the best revenge'. (-; Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 26, 1998 at 22:33:47 (EDT)
From: Jerry Email: None To: lurker Subject: Fear of speaking out. Message: It seems that most of y'all feel damaged, feel like you couldnt get your lives together without m-bashing, take comfort in the fact that he smokes, revel in the notion that he lives in a large and ostentatious house, and are disappointed that folks like Mike Donner are not leading everyone to the promised land of freedom of the anti-premie. I'm not really interested in m-bashing, couldn't give a shit if he smokes, and I don't know Mike Donner from Adam. My interest in the forum is the opportunity it allows me to excercise my critical faulties and voice my doubts. If there was such a PREMIE forum that allowed for this type of interaction maybe I'd be expressing myself there instead. :::waiting for the expletives and curses to follow::::: You really haven't said anything that would make me curse you out. So I won't. In fact, I'm always grateful to hear ideas which challenge my own. Thank you. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 26, 1998 at 23:08:07 (EDT)
From: Keith Email: None To: everyone Subject: Fear of speaking out. Message: The irony is that one of the more obvious weaknesses in the elan-vital scene is 'the fear of speaking out ' that is engendered in that repressed environment. Would Sir David give the same advice to premies? 'Don't worry ; just turn a blind eye ; don't take things so seriously ; words don't really have to hurt anyone '. No....speaking out is a way to break the binds of a self-imposed status quo. There is no abiding justification for incivility. Free speech is like free love ; freedom that cannot impose reasonable limits can easily become just another authoritarian regime ; another excuse to sanction the behavior of a few at the expense of the silent majority ; or another excuse to allow freedom to be a mask for double standards. This forum is set up by ex-premies to express the range of issues that ex-premies might want to share. Again I re-iterate , not all ex's are so extreme in their views. And nor are all premies. I feel that this forum would prosper if a wider range of view-points was encouraged . I am an ex-premie ; but I feel that much of the anti-premie and anti-Maharaji sentiment and content expressed on this site; as well as the anti-spiritual/mystical strain , is counter-productive and authoritarian (and cultish). I want to respect those who post here who's views differ greately from my own , but that is difficult to do when my views or the views of others are ridiculed and abused. let's speak out for tolerance , mutual respect and true dialogue ; a real dialectic. Keith Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 26, 1998 at 23:23:10 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Keith Subject: Misuse of language Message: I am an ex-premie ; but I feel that much of the anti-premie and anti-Maharaji sentiment and content expressed on this site; as well as the anti-spiritual/mystical strain , is counter-productive and authoritarian (and cultish). Keith, You're not just pompous, you're stupid. You read that whole big fat book and this is how little you understood one simple term? That's not very promising, Kieth. No, what it really is is just another example of how new age people like you fuck with language. I personally think mysticism is based on ignorance and don't support it. I argue that point vociferously. Now, come on, asshole, you tell me how that stretches into 'authoritarianism' or even 'cultish' bahaviour? You can only twist words so much. Now you've got a new word, 'authritarian' and, like a two year old, you think you can just put it in your mouth and there you are. Well wrong, Keith. It actually means something. And what it doesn't mean is arguing sharply. It doesn't mean calling people names. It doesn't mean creating a hostile environment for your favorite ideas. It doesn't mean anything like that. You're just trying to hijack a term, Keith, because, like I say, you got it in your mouth. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 26, 1998 at 23:36:36 (EDT)
From: Keith Email: None To: Jim Subject: Misuse of language Message: I agree with you in reverse Jim. Your sentiments above more seem like an unconscious self confession to me . Ah well , I'll just have to agree to disagree with you once again. but jim ... don't threaten to sue me or get me kicked off the forum ..again, like you used to. please , sir , I'm only speaking out . Keith PS ; I really don't think Jim likes me . That really hurts! I'm such a weenie! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 27, 1998 at 11:07:42 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Keith Subject: Do you have to lie, Keith? Message: but jim ... don't threaten to sue me or get me kicked off the forum ..again, like you used to. please , sir , I'm only speaking out . Look, you little bug, you're just lying with this kind of nonsense. When did I threaten to sue you? When did I threaten to get you kicked off the forum? What you want, asshole, isn't just a place where you can spout your banal pronouncements and whatever else churns in that tepid brain of yours. You want to be able to do that unchallenged here. It's you who has a problem with 'free speech', I guess. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 27, 1998 at 07:00:33 (EDT)
From: Sir David Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: Keith Subject: No control here Message: Keith wrote: 'There is no abiding justification for incivility.' Yes but it's an unjust world isn't it. My point was that the same stuff that happens in the real world will happen here. I think we can make a mountain out of a molehill. There is no controling authority on this forum. You have just as much validity here as anyone else. Nobody has ever censored my views here. Of course, not everybody agrees with them but that's a risk I take if I express my views. Since there really is nobody controling this forum, you can change its atmosphere if you want to and are able to. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 28, 1998 at 11:37:50 (EDT)
From: Richard Email: None To: Keith Subject: Fear of speaking out. Message: OK Keith, Although I cannot understand one tenth of the convoluted, recursive and mind-numbingly obscure way in which you attempt to diss those who prefer direct speech, but without attracting any blame to yourself, please be assured that I, in my own small way, would be reasonably content to risk a certain portion of my time here on earth in a humble attempt to guarantee your unequivocal right to carry on doing so. regards Richard Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 26, 1998 at 22:59:24 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Keith Subject: Want some attention, Keith? Message: Keith, You're SUCH a pompous ass. You know that? You came on here months ago absolutely confused and entangled in Maharaji's stupid web. His stupid goop was sticking to you head to foot. Far from 'intelligent', you couldn't string two words together coherently without falling all over yourself. If you don't remember, check out the archives, eh Vacol? Even then, of course, you were a pompous idiot. 'Let the debate begin!' you trumpeted. You were so far from being able to debate any of the issues related to Maharaji, you fell flat on your face immediately. What's wrong, don't you remember that? Who could forget? So you're Mr. Openness and Balance now, huh? And 'spokes-person' as well? Look, jerk, why don't you just start your own web page where you can do things properly for a change? Personally, I'd be happy to never hear from you again. I've never been interested in anything you've had to say and I don't see that changing any time soon. I know, that's just my opinion. But there, you've got it. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 26, 1998 at 23:23:48 (EDT)
From: Keith Email: None To: Jim and everyone Subject: Want some attention, Keith? Message: Here is a prime case in point ! Guru Jimji strikes again! The great wordsmith ; the truth bearer ; the one who can so wonderfully take apart the pompous unintelligent mush of forum-pests like myself , and show all the true believers the light and the way. The one who studies the masters words in order to print them endlessly for the enlightenment of others. Thankyou Jim once again for so sensitively pointing out the idiocy of my ways. And to think that I find it difficult to respect your position. Shame on me! My goodness ; where did my civility go? And despite Jim not caring if he never read another word of mine again , I bet he is reading this ...right now! Remember folks , Jim does not seek attention ; so any response to this post is really altruistically motivated ; for the good of the whole! Keith Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 27, 1998 at 05:31:18 (EDT)
From: Keith Email: None To: For lurker and bobby Subject: fear of speaking out Message: Dear Bobby and lurker, Thankyou for speaking out. I simply do not see why anyone should feel so afraid that they will not post on this forum , but for instance feel that they must create another 'forum' , which is what has already happened. Who has set the fixed agenda for this site? Bobby and I (and I assume lurker too) are ex-premies too. So are quite a few others who post in another forum . People 'there ' sometimes say , 'wow, would'nt I be attacked if I'd shared this on the forum'. Wake up! This forum is overly controlled by an extremist mind-set , that really has a very tiny following , (despite behaving like a large crowd....a few can make a lot of noise), and this is really not combating the enemy with an alternative mode (or modes) of behaviorisms (and I mean natural ones , not artificial) but rather in so many ways mirroring some of the worst traits that supposedly premies are prone to suffer. Too much pride. Too much pals egos forming a collective 'we' think tank. Too much certaintity ; self-righteousness . Too much emotionality instead of reasoned debate , despite jims illusion that the mental brilliance and debating skills are on his side (and in his brain). Too much INTOLERANCE OF DIVERGENT POINTS OF VIEW. Too much ridicule of other people. Too much ONE-SIDED INTIMIDATION TOWARDS THOSE TOO WEAK TO FIGHT BACK. INDEED , elan vital or ex premie org ? Can we really look in the mirror ? I doubt it! Keith Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 27, 1998 at 06:28:18 (EDT)
From: Mel Bourne Email: None To: Keith Subject: fear of speaking out Message: Attaboy Keith! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 27, 1998 at 07:36:10 (EDT)
From: lurker Email: None To: Mel Bourne Subject: punchline Message: Nope...lurker's not an ex-premie...lurker's a premie..... Lurker's a premie who smokes, drives a beemer, hasn't said 50 words to M in 20 years but goes to see him when time permits, meditates every day and really loves being alive. Didnt start out with any of this (except the smoking I guess), but realized sometime in the late 70's the aforementioned truism (ya gotta have a life) left the ashram and went out and got one. It was not as effortless as I'm making it sound - but it got done. I'm sure many of you will find contradictions there....that's ok...because for me it all works. Most importantly, I'm happy with the way my life has come together. That's a good thing, since it seems to be the only one I've got. I wish you all the same. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 28, 1998 at 12:29:08 (EDT)
From: Gerry Email: None To: lurker Subject: You're unique Message: Lurker, You seem to be doing well inspite of your cult involvement (or maybe the lack of it.) Consider yourself fortunate. Many people got hammered by this thing. All the things you do, have and have become, are the results of your efforts, and not the guru's grace, don't you agree? If you want to meditate, fine, but you don't owe any experience you may have to the guru. I'm probably preaching to the choir here. I just don't want other people to think it's OK to get involved in this cult, and that good things are going to come of it. You're the exception, not the rule. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 27, 1998 at 09:47:54 (EDT)
From: Katie Email: None To: Keith Subject: fear of speaking out Message: Dear Keith - I have a question (sincere) and a few observations to make on your posts on this thread. First, can you tell me the group for which you are the 'spokesman'? I would guess that it is the MMT group, but that might not be correct. (I am also a member of an alternate 'forum', but it is a very small one, and we talk about thing that we would not WANT to to talk about on the forum because they are too personal, so it's different!) You wrote: This forum is overly controlled by an extremist mind-set ,that really has a very tiny following , (despite behaving like a large crowd....a few can make a lot of noise)... I don't agree with this statement, because I cannot see how the forum is 'controlled' by anyone. I agree with Sir David that the forum is collective AND unmoderated. Thus if anyone is controlling it, it's a cooperation between this person and everyone else who posts here. The people who say that they are afraid to post things on the forum are cooperating in what you call the extremist mind-set being prevalent on the forum. You appear to be calling for censorship of 'flaming' posts, and that isn't something that Brian or I want to do. If the majority of people who post on the forum want to talk about something, and they are not speaking up because of fear of flaming, than they are participating in that topic not being 'acceptable' on the forum. I wrote the following to PaulR below, but would like to repeat it since I think it applies to all of us: I think it is important to recognize that there are people here in various stages of healing from the trauma they experienced while following Maharaji. Some of these people are very angry and hurt and basically are not in a place where they can NOT come to negative judgements about premies or people who are 'on the fence'. I think it's important to provide an atmosphere where people can express that anger and hurt, and also where newcomers are welcomed as well. Anything you can do with the welcoming process would be appreciated. Brian and I wrote the forum introduction to warn some of the new people that they might be coming into, but it does help to have some words of welcome. My point here is that YOU can make a difference on the forum without trying to change the other people who post. The forum IS the people who post on it and I'm assuming that means you. Regards from Katie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 27, 1998 at 14:39:24 (EDT)
From: VP Email: None To: Katie Subject: On intimidation Message: I think a good point to make here is that others can only control what you do or say IF YOU ALLOW THEM TO. Otherwise you can say and do what you want to without worrying about intimidation. If someone I respect tells me to fuck off, yes it is going to HURT. But if I think someone is a flaming ass, or I disagree with their statements, motives, or actions, why do I care what they say to me? It is a non-issue to be flamed by someone I do not respect. I agree with Katie that no one controls the forum. Each of us control how we act and participate here. For the most part, no one else is responsible for our actions and feelings here except OURSELVES. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 27, 1998 at 12:11:24 (EDT)
From: Mickey the Pharisee Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net To: Keith Subject: fear of speaking out Message: My Complaint against Keith aka Vacol In response to Keith aka Vacol's principles, I would like to offer the following opposing points. One of my objectives is to debunk the nonsense spouted by Keith's mercenaries. When surveyed, only two percent of his surrogates agreed with the statement, 'It is probably safe to assume that Keith likes to have difficult social issues presented to him in simple, black-and-white terms.' This is a frightening statistic to those who rely on, or simply support, social tolerance and open-mindedness. Neo-slovenly stoicism has long been the nucleus of his opinions. There's really no other conclusion you can reach. Why does he want to carve out space in the mainstream for pestiferous politics? The answer is not obvious. He may not be cranky, but Keith sure is subversive. I won't mince my words: He has a hidden agenda. It should be clear by this point that in every country, there are detestable antagonists who are every bit as bad as impudent wild voluptuaries. I'm not the first to mention that raising the volume, increasing the stridency, or stressing the emotionalism of an argument does not improve its validity. I suspect I am not alone when I say that all Keith does is complain, complain, complain. My goal for this letter was to recall the ideals of compassion, nonviolence, community, and cooperation. Know that I have done my best while trying always to exemplify the principles of honor, duty, loyalty, and courage. Let an honest history judge. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 27, 1998 at 15:37:27 (EDT)
From: Sir David Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: Mickey the Pharisee Subject: fear of speaking out Message: Hey, this complaint generator is almost human in its intellegence. I just put Tony Blair, Bill Clinton and Margater Thatcher into the machine and it came out with highly relevant descriptions and complaints every time. Wierd of what. This is Twilight Zone stuff! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 27, 1998 at 15:42:23 (EDT)
From: g's mom Email: None To: Sir David Subject: almost like astrology... Message: You can read any sign and see yourself or someone else in it if you want to.... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 27, 1998 at 19:24:43 (EDT)
From: Keith Email: None To: g's mom Subject: almost like astrology... Message: Study astrology seriously and you may change your mind. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 27, 1998 at 20:04:37 (EDT)
From: St. Augustine Email: None To: Keith Subject: regarding astrology... Message: 'At that time there was a man of good judgement, very skilled in the art of medicine and in that respect of high reputation...I came to know him well and became an assiduous and regular listener to his conversation; although his prose style was not highly cultured, his opinions were lively and expressed in a delightful and serious manner. From my remarks he discovered that I was addicted to the books of those who cast horoscopes. In a kind and fatherly way he advised me to throw them away and not to waste on that nonsense the care and labour required for useful matters. He told me that he had himself studied astrology so far that in his early years he had intended to take it up formally as a way of earning his living, saying that if he had the capacity to understand Hipporcrates, he would be able to understand these books also. Nevertheless he had given up the subject and pursued medicine for the simple reason that he discovered astrology to be utterly bogus. Being a serious minded person, he did not wish to make a living out of deceiving people.' Confessions, IV. ii (5) H. Chadwick's translation Even fourth century people knew that astrology was garbage! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 27, 1998 at 20:46:32 (EDT)
From: Keith Email: None To: St. Augustine Subject: regarding astrology... Message: I see ! This is meant to be representitive of all forth century people , is it ? ' Even fourth century people knew that astrology was garbage!' Another example of a rigid absolutism and know it all thinking! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 27, 1998 at 21:26:55 (EDT)
From: Mickey the Pharisee Email: None To: Keith Subject: regarding astrology... Message: Keith scribbled: 'I see ! This is meant to be representitive of all forth century people, is it?' Well, intelligent, literate fourth-century people (St. Augustine was a North African bishop). Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 27, 1998 at 21:43:07 (EDT)
From: Gerry Email: None To: Keith Subject: Fear of speaking out. Message: Hi Keith, I have to laugh. Patty just read the beginning of this post and though it was another ''complaint generator'' post. uh oh! Time to tune the rhetoric. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 27, 1998 at 21:47:19 (EDT)
From: Keith Email: None To: Gerry Subject: Fear of speaking out. Message: Exactly Gerry, How shall we ever trust each other again? Are these words another clever ditty from that naughty complaint generator ? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 28, 1998 at 07:34:52 (EDT)
From: Richard Email: None To: Keith Subject: Fear of speaking out. Message: I am the spokes-person for many forum contributors who choose to not express what I'm saying here...to one degree or another. MMMMMMMMMMMMMMM..I am the walrus. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 30, 1998 at 08:31:59 (EDT)
From: Becky Email: None To: Keith Subject: Cult within a cult Message: Sorry Keith, didn't realise you're an ex-premie. I agree, the arguements here are pretty narrow. that's because most people want to say something, but they're not sure what. Where are the other websites? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 26, 1998 at 20:47:56 (EDT)
From: RT Email: y2 chaos To: Everyone Subject: y2k worst case scenario-oh-oh Message: Dear Ex-Premies, Here are some material in case you can't think of what to plan for....yes, it's a GOAL MINE. My new hobby is being prepared, with all the money I saved from NOT going to K programs, I am purchasing a year's supply of food and a Bay-Gen wind up no battery radio w/ shortwave. Tomorrow. If you want to live well -which is the best revenge, - here are 3 scenarios to get you thinking. No response necessary but welcomed. warm regards, RT Best and Worst Cases from prepare4y2k.com Bases on my extensive reading of hundreds of Y2K items on the web, thousands of postings on the newsgroup comp.software.year-2000 and several books and newsletters on the subject, here are my 'best' and 'worst' cases. Actually these are 5th percentile and 95th percentile points on a wide distribution of possible outcomes (I regard it as a 1 in 20 chance that the outcome may actually be better than the 'best' case and similarly for the 'worst' case). Make no mistake, no one knows with any certainty what will happen; I am merely trying to summarize what I know. Best Case: Some Major Problems, Followed By Recession. In this case, most of the government agencies figure out a way to keep their checks going out, even if they have to do it by hand, hiring thousands of new employees. The IRS is abolished and replaced by a national sales tax. There are foreign bank failures and the collapse of one major U.S. bank, but the payments system holds together. About 3% of businesses fail, mainly because of the 'Domino Effect' and failure of some of their suppliers (another Domino Effect). The GDP shrinks 15%, and unemployment hits 15%, but those businesses that do survive take over for their fallen competitors. Within a year, the stock market, which has fallen by 40%, is rising again. Worst Case: Catastrophe, Followed By Severe Depression. In this case, many of the most serious predictions come true: the rising tide of problems in 1999 washes over most industries and government and the public panics. Trying to cash out, stock owners and depositors bring the fractional reserve banking system to a halt. The stock market plunges to below 1000 on the Dow. Most business and government operations are severly hampered. Food and fuel shipments are delayed. Shoppers clean out the supermarkets overnight. Merely finding enough to eat becomes a problem for many Americans. On January 1, 2000 many electrical utilities are knocked out by embedded system problems for weeks at a time. The phone system stays up, but many foreign systems are off-line. International trade drops to near zero. The resultant worldwide depression lasts for several years. Middle Case: Chaos, Followed By Severe Recession. It is impossible to say what a middle case consists of exactly. Some systems stay up and some fail. Which ones it impossible to say now. The effect might be similar to a moderate earthquake happening everywhere on the globe at once. Government performs rather poorly, due to inadequate preparation and contingency planning. The economy is severely impacted, what we might call a sever recession or minor recession. Last Revised: 4/12/1998 Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 26, 1998 at 21:54:36 (EDT)
From: Sir David Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: RT Subject: Solution to Y 2,000 problem Message: If everything started going haywire as you predict, couldn't we just turn back the clock/date twelve months on all computer systems until we had figured out where we were going wrong. Or is that just too simple and obvious? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 26, 1998 at 22:02:58 (EDT)
From: rt Email: static, you're fading..damn y2k! To: Sir David Subject: Y2K. What, me scurry? Message: yea, verily, it's all the embedded 2 digit code in millions of unix systems and, embedded chips in elevators and thousands of devices. etc. ...All your answers are at www.garynorth.com All time based businesses will suffer. None of the 13,000 USA banks are compliant ( like a premie following AYGA is compliant) VISA/Mastercard IS compliant. Boy will they get rich. Tony Blair of Britain is the only Major public figure screaming about this. Seek and prepare, it is a real BIG problem. No joke from RT Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 27, 1998 at 01:20:43 (EDT)
From: Mothra Email: None To: RT Subject: bug Message: Better buy a wood stove for your office RT old buddy. The worst case did not mention a very plausible and in my opinion likely occurance. Eastern europe has a lot of soviet designed nuclear powerplants. Many systems are not y2k compliant even in the us. One plant that fails in it's procedures and can't be shut down properly melts down. Also, all of the ships that carry oil are completely dependent on systems that are not y2k compliant. Unloading docks and pumping stations and refineries have thousands of imbedded controls that can and will go down. Fuel prices WILL go up and heating oil and other products will not be produced for a while. On the postive side, Gulfstream 4 jet fuel prices will go up. Sen Dodd, co-chairman of the senate energy commitee said, 'To be honest, we are no longer asking will there be power outages, the question now is how severe will they be and for how long.' No answer will be given to that question because the IS no answer. What in the world kind of food do you eat that you can buy a years supply? Canned food? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 27, 1998 at 10:50:45 (EDT)
From: RT: My life is my Play. Email: we interrupt this broadcast to bring you... To: Mothra. Mark this! Subject: Bugged? Print this post. Message: What’s in Store? - Call for a Catalog! Gary North (www.garynorth.com) asked a Utah supplier [see below’s list], “Sir, if 10% of the Mormons actually decided to order food supplies for a year from you, could you fill the orders? ”Absolutely not” was the reply. Remember that Mormonism is the fastest growing religion, and they do teach about food storage. Add the Y2k Crisis and you have a real need to dig the well when you are not thirsty. 1. American Family Supply Salt Lake City, UT. 1 –800-216-6466 One year supply $599. Just Add Water & heat. Freeze dried. Each can in the supply contains 60 servings. 2. Walton Feed, Inc. One year supply $1195. Ohio. 1-800-500-4853 3. Millenium Provo, UT 1-800-500-9893 Gourmet Food Reserves. Fancy. 15 month supply. Pick n choose catalog. Specials: 160 cans large - $1095. 4. Pioneer Home Storage Products, Georgia. 1-706-862-0476 “Dig the well when you are not thirsty” they say. 5. Bay-Gen Radio. 60 cranks=30 minutes of very good sound. Has a DC input jack; uses NO batteries. Ask for Solar powered model (crank or put in the sun) I looked at one last weekend for 20 minutes, a friend had just purchased 2 units. AM_FM_SW . Very solid, strong plastic molding, rich sound. One radio was the see-thru model, it was interesting to watch the flywheel power a rechargeable battery. Normally $119 in most ads in magazines, BUT my friend gave me a Real Goods catalog (1-800-762-7325) and they sell it for $80. Seek the web, 30 minutes hyperlinking to garynorth.com will do it. The Rocky Mountain Survival Group has the whole picture outlined with a shopping list. RT who says Good luck: You have 16 months - at the most. Do it soon.. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 27, 1998 at 18:44:18 (EDT)
From: beeb Email: None To: RT: My life is my Play. Subject: Bugged? Print this post. Message: Survivalists have yet to be on target. they overdo whatever comes down the pipe. They are armed for a race war, ect. They were arming to fight the invasion of the communists in the 50's and 60's. They think the fed's are agin' em. Jew's and fags rule the media, ect. It's us and them always. In Russia, where people haven't been paid in 6 months, and in countries like that where there is not enough money Coming in each month to even pay for food, folks survive. We are spoiled rotten of course and will gripe to high heavens. Better you hang out at Yardeni's web site. He is not going to generate messages like survivalist guys will and are at thier websites, you will like his professionalism on the subject. Bring the boy home at that time and talk to the gramps. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 27, 1998 at 21:11:50 (EDT)
From: Selena Email: None To: beeb Subject: yes I am bugged. Thanks beeb Message: Here I was, having an unusually tough Monday. And then I get to doomsday posts on the web. If people don't have actually facts, I mean code examples, etc. as to why the world is going to fall apart, than I would appreciate NOT hearing about more y2K hysteria. I work in a computer center. WE are not compliant yet. So, I know therer is a strong possibility others aren't either. But I still would like to hear something a little more down to earth than ' the nuclear power plants are not compliant' Sorry. But that was awful to read this morning. Really bad. I got scared and worse, since I don't have the resources to run off and buy land, gold, food surplus, bomb shelter construciton, an arsenal, etc... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 28, 1998 at 03:12:04 (EDT)
From: beeb Email: None To: Selena Subject: ok Selena Message: Sorry, e-mail can be my method for this subject. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 28, 1998 at 11:38:57 (EDT)
From: Selena Email: None To: beeb Subject: ok Selena Message: I hope you know I was referring to the other posts. You're the one who helped calm me down. I was really upset yesterday after reading the others. Just wanted to clarify. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 28, 1998 at 12:03:05 (EDT)
From: RT, Whoa-d Worrier Email: let's use hand signals. To: Selena and Beeb Subject: A tall tale with facts, ma'am. Message: RT meets Selena on Info Highway 98 in the Epsiode called 'My Karma Ran Over My Dogma' RT is surfing the waves of truck drivers, a kind of reverse hitch-hike of 30mph passing-by 18 wheelers...waiting for that certain truck to slow down around this curve so he can lasso the bumper which is tied to his soap box derby. The 50 foot rope is coiled out of site and he figures, he's got 8 seconds to push his cart down the slope, hook onto the truck, and hop in before the truck downshifts. The first lurch is a gas-and, he does go through a lot of rope! RT ain't dumb, he's savin energy for the Millenium and besides, he's got insurance! Only this time, the next truck is a four wheel drive pickup, and Selena's driving it, too fast. Oh-Oh! BAM! Round the corner, her left rear hits a 1996 bottle of Ripple and goes flat. PSSSSSSSHHHHHHH. boink. tinkle. 'Howdy, ma'am! Looks like your Karma ran over your dogma, -if you don't mind bumpersticker lingo.' 'Oh! It's Monday! I did NOT need this! More boom and gloom.' ' Well, I always say, 'God is my Co-pilot but the devil is my bombardier.'' This path is icy in the winter, you need traction. All those twists and turns.You need 75R14 sized tires with studs. ...You do know about embedded slips, I hope. Look like you have to git your vee-hickel 4WD compliant. And with Studs!' She said, 'That's the last thing I want to hear after a hard day in the parking lot. I know about 4WD compliancy...none of our cars are yet. We know the embedded slips are there. I just thought the government will take care of it! We figure the sand and media spinners will cover it up.' RT laughed. 'Sure, you can trust the government! Just ask an Indian'! Selena snorted, in a ladylike way. 'So! I suppose YOU are 4WD compliant in that --soap box of yours.?!! Give me a brake. You don't even have an engine!' RT stood on his soap box mobile, looked down on Selena and said, 'Keep honking while I reload, Lady....You see, I went to the local survival center- the one next to Pal-Mart on Route 57? --and got 4 hard rubber tires! I don't have to worry about flats! Now embedded slips, that's another issue. I can't go it alone. I really prefer to hitch a ride with your truck. Tell you what, I'll fix your flat an' you can tow me to the next restaurant. I'll buy you dinner at Yardeni's Diner and Cybercafe, and tell you about what YOU can do personally to prepare for the long hard winter that's a'comin' It's just a big ol' list. Remember, when the going gets tough, the tough go shopping!' 'The goverment can only survey the problems', RT went on, 'but they won't tell YOU how to prepare because we as a society just don't have the inventories in the warehouses! When Sam Walton introduced Just-In-Time Inventories, and saved 20% off marketing costs, everybody had to follow his lead to compete! ' 'A run on stores would wipe out stock. Especially in late 1999! You have to start NOW to stock up. So what if your pantry is full. And if nothing happens-well, throw a party to eat the surplus! You can't lose by stocking up NOW!' RT looked into the sunset and said, 'The math is all there. But you have to face the future sober! Alcohol and calculus don't mix: Never drink and derive! So he fixed her temporary flattened state of conscioussness, hitched up his tow rope to her rear and off they went toward true sharing and a little piece of amer-i-can pie. This here is RT, saying 'Adios, Amigos! And remember, madness takes it's toll. Please have exact change! ; ) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 28, 1998 at 12:46:59 (EDT)
From: Selena Email: None To: RT, Whoa-d Worrier Subject: A tall tale with facts, ma'am. Message: And remember, madness takes it's toll. So it seems! You mean well I am sure. : ) Selena - pragmaticism takes it toll too you know Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 28, 1998 at 13:53:50 (EDT)
From: RT Email: www.yardeni.com To: Selena and all Subject: Tip from beeb,read it and weeb Message: Dear Selena, Do you think people would go through this much trouble for an ALL DAY internet conference if there was no need for concern? I have done my duty to alert you, with fun, [cause girls just wanna have fun?] As a computer-savvy person, you should... really go shopping! A little each day is OK. Don't forget the Dr. Bronners! All One, Have Pun! When I get my year's supply of food, I'll give a Storage Review to all the ex-premies. This has been an RT alert! from www.yardeni.com: Agenda Now is our chance to make a difference. Here is what we need to do: We need to increase global awareness of the problem. We need to do everything possible to fix the problem while there is still time. We need to assess the likelihood of system malfunctions and failures, and significant disruptions to our businesses, governments, and lives. We need to prepare contingency and disaster recovery plans. We must promote a community approach to this problem. Alarm, Not Panic! An informed public may be alarmed by the problem, but with 500 days remaining we can take measures to minimize counter-productive panic reactions. Y2K is a community problem. Indeed, it is likely to have a deep impact on the entire global community. The best way to put it behind us and to prosper once again is by working together. . Dr Ed Yardeni's COUNTDOWN 2000 CONFERENCE August 19, 1998 Global Y2K Action Day (T-Minus 500 Days & Counting!) Join the Chief Economist and Managing Director of Deutsche Bank Securities in a live, marathon Internet Audio program all day with many of the world's top experts on the Year 2000 Problem. The conference will start at 8:00 am in New York and last until 6:00 pm. Tune in for the live broadcast and rebroadcasts at the Y2K Conference Site. Go there now to download Real Player 5.0. You will also find a preliminary schedule on the Conference site. During the live broadcast, e-mail questions & comments to yardeni@ix.netcom.com. :| Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 28, 1998 at 15:41:11 (EDT)
From: Selena Email: None To: RT Subject: Tip from beeb,read it and weeb Message: yeah but Ed Yardeni's movie list gives 'boogie nights' three minus signs. hmmm... and 'As good as it gets', three pluses? I don't know if I can trust someone like this. Thanks for the info RT. On days that don't start with an M I will start checking some things out. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 28, 1998 at 19:09:55 (EDT)
From: bb Email: None To: RT, Whoa-d Worrier Subject: A tall tale with facts, ma'am. Message: Right you are! I forgot about justin time inventories. Nice post RT. Informative but fun. Good way to discuss this subject. We have to meet soon at a local Yardini Diner. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 28, 1998 at 20:26:09 (EDT)
From: RT Email: net prophets To: bb Subject: A tall tale with facts, to go. Message: Hi BB; Let's tune in Aug 19th and ahare the experience! 8-6 est, lunch hour, and I bet there will be a web site. Oh, my Y2K list mail said the lawyers are gonna have a field day afer 2000. It will affect software and guarantees. If you want to see it, I'll send or post the 8 paragraphs. Happy Shopping! Start soon or face the gloom. RT Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 28, 1998 at 21:16:35 (EDT)
From: Katie Email: None To: RT Subject: Apocalyptic thinking Message: Dear RT, I know you mean to do good by posting the www.garynorth.com site address on here, but I found that site to be very frightening, and (I think) exaggerated. There are a couple of other links that he gave that I thought were much more sensible and down to earth: the Cassandra Project, and Karen Anderson's womens Y2K page (I can get links to these if anyone wants them). Also the Yardeni page is definitely not as doom-mongering. Some of the Y2K links are VERY weird - I can tell that some of the survivalists are getting a big kick out of this whole thing. It seems to be their dream come true - they almost seem to be WANTING bad things to happen to people. I spent most of my life either being in an apocalyptic mindframe or trying to get out of one so I could get on with my life. My dad worked in the Pentagon and when I was a kid he was convinced that we were going to be in a nuclear war. So I grew up being very afraid of that. Plus I was six years old during the Cuban Missile Crisis and we lived in DC, and so the nuclear bomb drills and all the readiness preparations were very scary to me. My dad bought land in the country and stocked it up with food and other stuff we might need in case of war. I was thus convinced from a very young age that there was going to be some sort of apocalypse and we were going to have to head for the hills. Then when I was a 'hippie' (age 14-15), EVERYONE was apocalyptic. We all thought that the world was coming to an end way before now. We read and believed Edgar Cayce's prophecies and other doom prognostications. I dropped out of high school because I though it would be totally useless and that I would need to learn survival skills instead. Again, I thought society was going to break down and I was going to have to live in the country and survive off the land. I actually did live in a small shelter in rural open land community for a while when I was 15 and 16, and basically scrounged for everything I needed. I really believed that this was what I might be doing for the rest of my life. A lot of Maharaji's early satsangs contained apocalyptic material (I think Jim has some good quotes), so becoming a premie did not help. I was still convinced that there was going to be some sort of disaster and/or the world was going to end within the next several years. It took me years to get over this type of thinking, to learn to set goals, and to believe that life was going to go on and that the world wasn't coming to an end and I might have time to actually go to school and get a job and even have a career. The Y2K stuff just brings all that apocalyptic thinking back to me - it really scares me and depresses me. Basically, apocalyptic thinking messed up most of the first half of my life, and I don't want to get back into it again. I know it's important to be prepared for contingencies, but it's been hard for me to find anything on the net that gives me any kind of REALISTIC view of what might happen. The people who are predicting the breakdown of society just make me feel despairing, and then I don't want to do anything. I also know that you want to help all of us, but I do want you to understand how frightening that this is for some of us. Regards from Katie P.S. Since you'll obviously be ready for Y2K, perhaps we'll all come stay with you if life as we know it falls apart. Make sure to stock up! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 28, 1998 at 22:21:02 (EDT)
From: Katie Email: None To: RT Subject: P.S. Y2K site Message: P.S. My husband, who is VERY sceptical about the Y2K problem, picked this as his favorite Y2K site (so far): 'DUH-2000' Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jul 29, 1998 at 11:35:52 (EDT)
From: RT Email: No time! quick-take this flare gun and point it.. To: Katie Subject: Y2K outasite Message: The Formula: Lack of Inventories + embedded chipset + 2 digit time sensitive banking x 13,000 banks + degrees of Millenium Fever [X internet databanks of overwrought info-junkies]-people who don't own a pc + capitalist entrepreneurs squared - survialists selling books = Y2K. Hi K-T: Don't we have fun here at the Forum!. ..Just to let you know- OK, I invented the whole Y2K Crisis - a lot of uploads! - you caught me! HaHaHoHoheehee! I am just making 'Being Prepared' my new hobby. I know life will go on , but I have aging Parents whom I will want to have extra food for. I never went as far as you did, and in fact don't even camp anymore...but FOOD IS a big deal, along w/water. So if there's extra cans, so what? A little common sense and a lot of fun. Oh jeez, I forgot the can openers! Have no fear-RT is clear. Thanks for the interesting post, you are quite a host. I still suggest folks buy extra NOW before the stampede. Don't forget double coupon days! RT Pentagon...pentagon...hmm.. oh yeah, I need Octogon soap! Can you get me a price on 500 bars? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jul 29, 1998 at 12:27:16 (EDT)
From: KT Email: None To: RT Subject: Y2K outasite Message: Hey RT - Thanks for the formula. It is very funny, and makes me see that you are not taking the whole thing totally seriously. (That's one of the reasons I liked the DUH-2000 site too. Humor helps us doom and gloom folks not to take things QUITE as seriously as we might.) Also thanks for the reminder about the can opener... KT Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jul 29, 1998 at 17:46:59 (EDT)
From: RT Email: the systems are down. Yell. To: KT Subject: Y2K outasite Message: PS to one of my 3 favorite ladies on the forum: The DUH-2000 site is for true believers. The comments are of stupid people. It is not to be taken as true, if your husband likes it, tell him it is to ridicule the skeptics - who are quoted. Y2K-Just Say Whoa! RT Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jul 29, 1998 at 18:05:34 (EDT)
From: KT Email: None To: RT Subject: Y2K insite Message: Hey RT - I KNOW the Duh-2000 site is for true believers and so does Peter. But we still think that it is funny - you don't have to agree with someone to think that their site is funny. Just the way it's written, the graphics, the line across the bottom of the screen - all funny. And by the way, we could tell that the comments were of stupid people - I mean PAT BUCHANAN? (even though he might not have really said it.) We may live out in the Heartland but we are still relatively discriminating. Thanks for the compliment too - always welcome! Your friend, KT Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 26, 1998 at 18:06:33 (EDT)
From: Nigel Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: Everyone Subject: Answer please! Message: I almost missed Richard's 'Commitment' thread, and I hope he doesn't mind if I hoik it up into public view again, since the inactive index is a bit like yesterday's papers. This was a great post Richard. It was addressed to CD and asked some very important questions that every premie should be asking themselves. CD mentioned he'd prefer to discuss things by email, which is fair enough, but why do I suspect he didn't give a straight answer to any of your questions - even if he did contact you privately? Richard's questions were not the kind designed to trap an unwary premie (or 'student' if you prefer) into saying things they didn't mean to say. The rationale for asking each was carefully explained, and obviously deeply felt. None have yet been answered. CD responded with a few more sweet nothing but never addressed the questions themselves. Anyway, here it is again (hope you don't mind Richard), and if any premie - you included CD, if you feel up to it - is sufficiently confident in their convictions to give some straight answers to simple questions about 'grace' and fortune, I am sure there are a lot of people here who would sincerely like to read them. >>> CD, I made a promise and recieved K in a session in London in 1972. This tells me a lot about the environment in which you came to receive knowledge since we were both in the same place at the same time. Hey, maybe we were even in the same knowledge session with Ashokanand selecting and Prakash Bai doing the business, while Glen Whittaker ran the sideshow right? I don't remember the exact vow but do know I took a vow that required a strong commitment. Without commmitment there is no reward. So this is your interpretation is it? Committment is the key to a happy life with knowledge and Maharaji? You made the committment to practice the knowledge and got rewarded with a happy life, I somehow fucked-up and that is why bad things happened or that is why the bad things are able to affect my quality of life. Therefore, if I practiced the knowledge again, the bad things would go away or I would cease to be affected by them (somehow). This theory goes along quite nicely with the message being sent out in '72 (and later) that people who leave the knowledge will descend into darkness. Trouble is, CD, that I didn't lack committment, quite the reverse, I gave everything and more to devoting my life to Maharaji and the knowledge. But no prize. The truth is that shit happens in a random fashion and no amount of Maharaji etc. will affect that in the slightest. Unless, of course, you believe in GRACE. Do you believe in GRACE CD? In which case you believe Maharaji has some kind of spiritual power, which is counter to what he is saying now. You can't have it both ways. People have great lives totally without anything to do with Maharaji or the knowledge, that much is evident. But the reverse is also true, that people who did everything according to the rules can have shitty lives. You have to accept that too, but if you do, where does that leave you with committment? You cannot simply retreat into your usual defense that it works for you. That is not the point. You have to go further than that. You engage in this forum to your credit but you always refuse to deal with the lack of any evidence that associates quality of life experience with the knowledge and Maharaji. There is plenty of evidence to the contrary. So how do you see it CD. regards Richard > In pessimistic anticipation of a speedy and comprehensive reply. Nigel Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 28, 1998 at 07:23:22 (EDT)
From: Richard Email: None To: Nigel, CD & All Subject: Answer please! Message: Hi Nigel, I have no problem with your re-posting this message and I would be delighted to get any sort of response. CD did email me privately but only to make vague reference to a certain discomfort in posting publicly on private matters and to reassure me that he harboured no ill feelings about my badmouthing him. (phew!!) I am obviously not going to reproduce a private email, suffice to say that he made no attempt whatsoever to answer or even refer to any of my questions. His continued posting since that date emphasises his intention to duck the difficult issues. I worked hard on that post to try and get away from the usual 'proof' and 'repudiation' route that we all get tangled in from time to time. Life is for living and under a variety of conditions. If knowledge cannot stand the test of living and have a major influence on the quality of life, then where is its practicality? When I first came to the forum, Jim attacked my defence of the knowledge by saying that it was merely an anasthetic and not the revelation that we had signed up for. He was right. Many premies have defaulted to that position now (what with Maharaji only being a teacher an' all) and say 'So what do you expect?' Others, like CD, smile mysteriously and make vague references to committment. I would like to move the argument on and have all premies take a long, hard look at the quality of their lives now and make a comparison with some very happy and successful non-premies and ask the question, what's the difference? Nursing homes all over the world are filled to bursting with very happy Prozac laden individuals. In many respects these chemically distracted people are very similar to premies who cling on to their narrow and locally defined 'happy lives' whilst ignoring the shit which surrounds them. I'm glad you re-asked the question Nigel, who knows when we will be granted an honest answer. regards Richard Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 28, 1998 at 20:54:34 (EDT)
From: Nigel Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: Richard Subject: The void is hard to avoid... Message: Hi Richard, I worked hard on that post to try and get away from the usual 'proof' and 'repudiation' route that we all get tangled in from time to time. That is exactly what I liked about it. The void (of meaningful responses) is gaping, and I'm yawning... Best wishes, Nigel Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jul 25, 1998 at 23:44:06 (EDT)
From: Pranam Anand Ottolina Email: seekthep_o_love@hotmail.com To: Everyone Subject: Help me find my premie father Message: Hi, it may seem weird to you to resieve a letter from me but I was looking for my father who goes by name of Bob Scott my name is Pranam Ottolina I've been loking in the premies addresses and I came about your name in the ex premie white pages I have never formaly met him but now that im 20 I would like get to know him if you know a premie or ex premie by that name I would greatly appretiate you dropping me a line at my web site at 'http://members.tripod.com/~electrowooff' My mother is a premie so are some uncles and ants my step father is also I have been turned down emotionaly by all of them but my ant berney who is not a premie tell please what the hell is wrong with them before I go insane and blow my head of.I have been to a couple of hes talks and they were very encouraging. I even had a god experience the best feeling I have ever known after one of his live talks I was trying to meditate and I imagined a mirror then I saw my reflection and at that moment I felt hole for the first time in years please contact me with any info and the matter of what im going through and about my sperm donor. Thanks beforehand sinscerly yours Pranam Anand Ottolina Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 26, 1998 at 00:07:46 (EDT)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Pranam Anand Ottolina Subject: Help me find my premie father Message: Dear Pranam, I do not think I know your father but this is a good place to look for sure. Where did he live if you have any idea? You are not the first to come here with a similar request. I wish you luck. Do you mean you've been turned down emotionally by all your premie relatives in all your life or just having to do with your father? Thank god for Aunt Berney!!!! I think lots of premies have neglected there family in the guise of devotion to BM, it sucks and it has nothing to do with you. If you mean just about your father, I don't know, could be many things. There are lots of good people here and you'll find support. If you see what buying into BM's world has done for you family why would you consider following in thier footsteps? Just curious. Are you OK or really flipping out? Take care of yourself, please. Love, Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 26, 1998 at 00:37:56 (EDT)
From: Pranam Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Robyn Subject: Help me find my premie father Message: Yes I have been turned down by all my premie relatives and I am at the border becouse my step father hasent even givenme any emotional support for my past achievements plus he just kiked me out of the house i'm living in my tent trying to find a job and get myself into college but he could see that or even accept that im trying. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 26, 1998 at 06:15:22 (EDT)
From: Anon Email: None To: Pranam Subject: Help me find my premie father Message: Pranam, since your premie relatives made such a poor job of bringing you up and since they are clearly emotionally deficient - don't you think that could be taken as a healthy warning sign not to go rushing off to find Truth in the same place that they did?! I am just concerned that you, like I was at 20, are vulnerable and full of wishfull thinking regarding this topic of Truth and God. You are liable to fall, hook line and sinker, for any strong influence that comes your way and where you imagine you are getting a special experience. Just be careful. I checked out your website and I know how you feel. I felt the same at your age. Whatever you do , don't be bullied into anything. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 26, 1998 at 14:52:34 (EDT)
From: pranam Email: None To: Anon Subject: thanks Anon Message: I just whant to meet him and confront him not follow him I allready know from experience why would I whant to follow someone who couldn't be responsible enough to even maintain contact with their offpsring. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 26, 1998 at 14:57:06 (EDT)
From: pranam Email: None To: pranam Subject: by the way Message: by the way does any one know of a site or phone number that I could look up to find spiritually disfunctional and no cojones premies something related to that elanvital or whateverthey call it Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 26, 1998 at 19:52:05 (EDT)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: pranam Subject: by the way Message: Pranam: At the end of my active involvement in the premie community I got to a point where I had no job and ultimately no prospects. Had to give up my apartment and I packed everything on a scooter and camped at Mt. Palomar for a month. Met this old guy who had helped build the Alaskan pipeline, and who helped me figure out how to keep the ground squirrels out of my tent and food. I eventually got back into civilization and after a few false starts got into an art school and eventually finished my undergrad in 1982. Completed my Masters in 1991, and just got my Ph.D. about a month ago. This progression is not necessarily where you want to go with your life, but the point is that you are not the first person living in a tent and trying to make something of your life, or sort things out. As I recall Teddy Roosevelt did something like that, and he became a Republican! Best of luck. You've obviously got something on the ball. Sorry I don't know your Dad offhand. Will think about it some more though. Where did he live, and when? -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 26, 1998 at 16:21:36 (EDT)
From: CD Email: None To: Pranam Subject: Help me find my premie father Message: >he just kiked me out of the house i'm living in my tent trying to find a job and get myself into college but he could see that or even accept that im trying. Don't be in too big a rush for results. It does sound like a difficult time for you. Keep your chin up, try not to be too preoccupied with your problems, don't panic, move forward at a steady pace and things will work out. If nobody is willing to help you don't give up, just do it. The strategy of getting some kind of job first sounds good. Then you will have some money, stability and a bit of relief. You can get to work on the bigger projects like going to college after that. I went to college for a couple years after high school, screwed aroundl, got kicked out and then went back 5 years later. I took a janitor job at the university that nobody wanted. And I worked in the cafeteria for 2 years. I ended up staying at the university for 5 years and got good paying teaching assistant jobs in the later years. Take a look at the book 'Think and Grow Rich' in a local bookstore. It was written about 50 years ago by a very interesting fellow. It has very good ideas on motivation. One problem is that I am still stuck working, even today! Good luck, CD Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 26, 1998 at 18:40:34 (EDT)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Pranam Subject: Help me find my premie father Message: Dear Pranam, Sometimes life just sucks, and you just have to go on anyway, I have never been without a home but have friends who were living in a pop up tent for 10 months, through the winter with 4 kids, 2 dogs and 2 goats! Somehow they got out of it and moved on. I hope things get better for you and my heart goes out to you now, Pranam. I know that won't change your life but I hope it warms your heart some to know that people here care about you because we know what premie parents can neglect their children and it is a very sad thing to turn away from the most important thing in your life toward someone who doesn't even care about them beyond thier check book, so very sad. Please keep us informed about your progress in finding Bob Scott and your life in general. Love, Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 26, 1998 at 23:25:48 (EDT)
From: pranam Email: None To: Robyn Subject: thank everyone Message: Thanks everyone for your support I am also an artist I sell paintings in the streets and public areas I will be going to art school also and it does worm my heart to see that people care.I just tiped my resume PRANAM OTTOLINA 516, 3rd AVE IOWA CITY IA 52242 (319)341-8545 OBJECTIVE: To find a job, in a restaurant , doing preps , cashier, line ,or as a waiter. EXPERIENCE: @Santa Monica Public Library From Jul. 94 to Sept. 94 2101 ocean park Blvd. Santa Monica, CA, 90405 Supervisor: Luix Escobar (305) 450-0443 Library Clerk, Duties Performed: -Organizing book shelves Wage: $4.75/hour -Maintenance. -Computer Check in/out -Closing. @GOLDEN CORRAL: From Aug. 95 To Oct. 95 621 S. Riverside Dr. Iowa City, IA, 52246-2342 Supervisors: Bob ?, and Ed ?. (3190354-2991 HOT BAR COOK, Duties Performed: -Cooking for the lunch buffet. Wage: $5.75/hour -Maintenance. -Closing. @HOTEL BELENSATE: From Oct. 95 To Feb. 96 Urb. La Hacienda de Belensate Merida, Edo. Merida Supervisor: Maria de Vezzanni Venezuela. (011)(58)(74)663722 FAX (011)(58)(74)661255 Receptionist, Duties Performed: -Cashier. -Taking messages. Wage: Eq/$=36/2weeks -Customer Service. -Reservations. -Security. @CARPET LAND USA: From Jul. 96 to Oct. 96 1506 Hwy. 1 W. Iowa City, IA, 52246-4302 Supervisor: Tony Lank (319)338 8300 Asst. Installer, Duties Performed: Wage: $150/week -Help at everything he needed help with. ` @ZENDIK FARM: From Oct. 96 to march 97 Star Rt. 16c-3 Bastrop, TX, 78602 Councilors: Wolf/Arol /Chen/Kord (512)303-1637 APPRENTSHIP, Duties Performed: -Carpentry. Wage: All necessities met. -House Painting. -Organic Vegetarian cooking. -Street CD, Tape, Magazine sales. -Organic Farming. @Community relief services: From Jun. 97 to march 98 2900 N. Rodeo Goulch Dr. Soquel, CA, 95073 Supervisor: Richard Ponton (408)462-4712 Employee: Duties Performed: -Carpentry. Wage: All Necessities met. -Pluming. -Maintenance. -Food preparation. -Free Food Distribution. -Gardening. -Cocky tables. -Summer concert tour(free Kitchen) EDUCATION: @Santa Monica High : @City High: 601 Pico blvd. 1900 Morningside Dr. Santa Monica, CA, 90405 Iowa City, IA, 52245 (310) 395-3204 (319) 339-6811 Grades 9-10 1994-95 FAX (319) 339-5705 @KIRKWOOD GED TESTING: @KIRKWOOD COMMUNITY COLLEGE: 1810 Lower Muscatine Rd. 1816 Lower Muscatine Rd. Iowa City, IA, 52240 Iowa City, IA, 52240 (319) 338-3659 (319) 338-3658 FAX (319) 338-8470 FAX (319) 351-3895 REFERENCES: -LUIX ESCOBAR. 2101 Ocean Park blvd. Santa Monica, CA, 90405 (305)450-0443 -RICHARD PONTON. 2900 N. Rodeo Goulch Dr. Soquel, CA, 95073 (408)462-4712 TONY LANK 409 3rd. Ave Iowa city, IA 52245 (319) 338-5652 Hobbies: Drumming, Music in general, Artistic Painting, Camping, Hiking, Mountaineering, Rockclimbing, Dancing, Ecological Activism, Swimming. and after this resume my stepfather had thu guts to call me a bumm |
Date: Mon, Jul 27, 1998 at 00:42:33 (EDT)
From: VP Email: None To: pranam Subject: parasites Message: 'and after this resume my stepfather had thu guts to call me a bumm a fucking parasite of society and that I dont know How to work.' It has to be very painful for a parent to say such insensitive things about you. If he doesn't speak the truth, try to disregard it as much as you can. Anyone who is cruel to their child (or stepchild) is the one who is the fucking parasite of society. I hope everything works out for you. Good luck finding your father. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 27, 1998 at 09:26:04 (EDT)
From: Jerry Email: None To: pranam Subject: thank everyone Message: and after this resume my stepfather had thu guts to call me a bumm a fucking parasite of society and that I dont know How to work. Some people are just miserable bastards you can't do anything about, Pranam. Just have faith in yourself that you're better than your stepfather thinks. Good luck. I got thrown out my house when I was your age, too. Somehow things worked out. Keep your head straight on your shoulders and you'll be OK. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 27, 1998 at 12:52:44 (EDT)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: pranam Subject: thank everyone Message: Dear Pranam, I was glad to see Scott's post to you, hope it helped to see someone who has really gotten it together from the same postion you are in now! I hadn't known that about him but I do know he is a great guy and I am sure you are too! Good luck to you, maybe something will come of your resume here. Love, Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jul 25, 1998 at 22:11:33 (EDT)
From: Gail Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Dysfunctional Premies Message: Here is what K and MJ have brought to the remaining premies in town: Person A - refuses to believe these papers; believes MJ has helped him tremendously; grows a large marijuana crop every year for personal use and to sell; has a small landscaping business; sends money to MJ monthly; has been supporting an alien (US citizen) exotic dancer/prostitute, her boyfriend and her pregnant daughter in exchange for occasional sexual favours; calls mother to send money on a regular basis Person B - in bankruptsy; has slight alcohol problem (is working on it); has lost everything; believes that MJ has helped her Person C - contemplating bankruptsy for the second time; did go to teachers' college but only taught two years because it was too stressful; currently works for minimim wage in food industry; has had no partner for over 10 years; claims that MJ is the only man she needs Person D - had nervous breakdown four years ago; suffers from fibromyalga; is contemplating bankruptsy; will be far in the whole after house is sold; is fanatical about MJ; worries if things are not exactly as MJ wants; has hard time in relationships Person E - lives in a room; has not worked for over 10 years except for odd jobs; goes to food banks and hoards food in boxes; boxes are stacked in his room up to the ceiling; there is only a narrow pathway to his bed; has boxes stacked on the bed as well; only a small patch for him to lie down on the bare mattress with springs coming out of it; sits for hours with his head in his hands; used to do art layouts for Sears Canada; used to do medical illustrations (many of which are still displayed at local hospital) Person F - is anal retentive; cannot bear to pass up garbage on the street; chesterfields, desks, newspapers, everything is kept; only narrow pathways throughout his house; has no goals; has no hope of things getting better; has not paid house taxes for years; is waiting for baliff to evict him; contemplates suicide on a regular basis Me - holds down job as a high school teacher; two-year addiction to cocaine (quit on my own four years ago); stopped cooking ten years ago (I just started again); used to be a fastidious housekeeper (now must hire someone in); no longer care to go out; no hobbies; no interests other than the cult; no relationships for six years; trying to become motivated again; insecure about putting the pieces back together THERE ARE NO SUCCESS STORIES IN THIS TOWN IN PREMIEDUMB. THE LONGER PEOPLE HAVE STAYED IN THE CULT, THE MORE ABNORMAL AND DYSFUNCTIONAL THEY HAVE BECOME. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jul 25, 1998 at 22:23:52 (EDT)
From: Bobby Email: None To: Gail Subject: Dysfunctional Premies Message: Actually, these people seem funny and fascinating. K and M or no K and M, sounds like a typical 'real-world' community to me. :P Everyone comes to terms with life in their own way. God Bless you on your chosen path. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 27, 1998 at 21:19:33 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Bobby Subject: Is that it, Bobby? Message: Actually, these people seem funny and fascinating. K and M or no K and M, sounds like a typical 'real-world' community to me. :P Everyone comes to terms with life in their own way. God Bless you on your chosen path. Bobby, Gail writes about people whose lives are in shambles and you find it 'funny and fascinating'. How 'funny and fascinating' has your own life been recently? You should be ashamed of yourself. As for 'everyone coming to terms with life in their own way', isn't that the darndest thing, the way that works? Isn't it the emptiest thing you could ever say? Hey, if you're looking for a few more good lines why not try: 1) Happy people are happy, sad people aren't. 2) Nothing's as surprising as the unexpected. 3) We are all what we are, no more and no less. 4) Sometimes things change and sometimes they don't. 5) I believe in the truth which is whatever I believe it to be. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 26, 1998 at 00:12:09 (EDT)
From: csp Email: None To: Gail Subject: Dysfunctional Premies Message: So if you see a premie that seems to be happy, your going to make a cross with with your fingers and yell 'LIES LIES' to him/her? or or you going to go bug eyed and say to yourself 'Well he's happy, I was wrong, so please forgive me M?' It is nice being a premie, everything fits, and you can say to yourself 'I'm happy' Well.... it is this way baby..... ya da ya da ya da Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 27, 1998 at 21:31:23 (EDT)
From: Gerry Email: None To: ALL Subject: Dysfunctional Premies Message: Does anyone have any idea what this post means? The pickins' are getting pretty slim around here: So if you see a premie that seems to be happy, your going to make a cross with with your fingers and yell 'LIES LIES' to him/her? or or you going to go bug eyed and say to yourself 'Well he's happy, I was wrong, so please forgive me M?' It is nice being a premie, everything fits, and you can say to yourself 'I'm happy' Well.... it is this way baby..... ya da ya da ya da Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 28, 1998 at 04:39:38 (EDT)
From: Jerry Email: None To: Gerry Subject: Interpretation Message: Sounds like the kind of satsang M himself gives. It should be self explanatory. After all, it is the master's clarity which really makes K sparkle. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 26, 1998 at 05:14:21 (EDT)
From: Sir David Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: Gail Subject: Dysfunctional Premies Message: That was a great post, Gail. Thank you. My own story has similar qualities. After ten years of following Maharaji I lived alone in a small room, was begging to move back into an ashram, had thrown away a good relationship with a girl who would have been my wife, only did temporary jobs, never had much money, had not learned to drive, spent most of my time either on my own or in satsang, felt very lonely, and my health was starting to fail. My only goal was Maharaji. Thankfully all the ashrams closed and the satsang stopped a year later. Then after two years of drug addiction I started my own business using my social security (welfare cheque) payment for my first advert. I concentrated myself to the goal of getting a successful business and forgot all about Maharaji. Things went much better for me then. Now my life is far from perfect but it is real and I would never entertain the prospect of letting Maharaji tell me how to run my life. What an ------- he is. (Fill in your own adjective in space provided) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 27, 1998 at 19:34:13 (EDT)
From: PaulR Email: None To: Gail, David Subject: Dysfunctional Premies Message: Following GM was turning me into a self centered, selfish, amoral little twerp. Recovery has forced me to become more socially centered, generous, considerate of others, etc. The proof that GM is not what he says he is (OR EVEN CLOSE) is in the lives of those who accepted his offer of salvation. You really have to be stupid to accept the notion that GM is teaching a moral, ethical, fulfilling way of life. However let us just be generous and invite others gently to remove themselves from what has ensnared them. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jul 25, 1998 at 21:21:46 (EDT)
From: Sir David Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: Everyone Subject: Calling on The Almighty Message: God, can you just stand by and watch as your children crawl into the fire of Maharaji's falshood? Please end this most damaging of confidence tricks. If You can just stand and watch, you are something else, but not a Father. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jul 25, 1998 at 21:46:03 (EDT)
From: Jerry Email: None To: Sir David Subject: Calling on The Almighty Message: . If You can just stand and watch, you are something else, but not a Father. Maybe he gave us what we need to deal with it, Sir David. You got out and others got out too. More will be getting out as time passes. Maybe he is doing something about it. Maybe he built into us the strength to fight for our own freedom and sooner or later when enough is enough, people do just that. And they win. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 27, 1998 at 02:07:40 (EDT)
From: parady Email: None To: Jerry Subject: Alrighty then. Message: Sir David was mimicing an old rawat quote. It was from the movie 'satguru has come' Navlata is a result of that. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 27, 1998 at 08:55:16 (EDT)
From: Jerry Email: None To: parady Subject: Alrighty then. Message: It seems I've been duped! Alrighty then! Thanks for filling me in, parady. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 27, 1998 at 10:47:49 (EDT)
From: Sir David Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: Jerry Subject: Alrighty then. Message: You weren't duped, Jerry. It was meant to be a parody of one of Maharaji's old satsangs but also it was sincerely meant. Your points were taken and acknowledged with thanks. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jul 25, 1998 at 21:50:36 (EDT)
From: Bobby Email: None To: Sir David Subject: Calling on The Almighty Message: People are damaged by their experiences with Maharaji - or not -to varying degrees. I believe we can learn and develop through every experience. Personally I've been far more damaged by other circumstances in my life. And one way or another I've gotten through them all. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jul 25, 1998 at 18:40:36 (EDT)
From: Gail Email: None To: Everyone Subject: THE FIRST HOUSE Message: MJ was a great deal more grateful for the first house he got. Did he ever say thanks for the new one? OCTOBER, 1974 -- THE DIVINE TIMES Dear Premies, By the united efforts of all of you, Durga Ji and myself have moved to a much more suitable residence in Los Angeles. It is a large, beautiful house with all of the necessary arrangements to facilitate my work. The most important aspect of the house, though, was your love for me which caused you to respond in the way you did. It is a very good sing, for it shows that you are experiencing the peace and bliss contained with my knowledge. This is what really makes me happy--when you are happy. So, my blessings and thanks to you for your dedication and devotion for this new house. SANT JI MAHARAJ Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jul 25, 1998 at 15:16:39 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Sweet nothings Message: Here's an excerpt from the editorial in the Divine Times Volume 4, Issue 1 (February 1, 1975). It's worth printing and putting on your fridge, I think: This Knowledge is like a vegetable: if you do not use it, it rots. It can even become poisonous at a point. That is how Knowledge is if you do not do meditation. It turns sour inside you and ruins your life. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jul 25, 1998 at 17:09:55 (EDT)
From: Selena Email: None To: Jim Subject: Sweet nothings Message: ugh.. I just posted how I hate those F YOU posts that don't give any more substance but I am tempted: F U BM!!!! I remember when I heard that rotting vegies satsang, all the premies gathered at the ashram, it was the very heaviest..., it was scary. After that I meditated more than ever. So what? Did it bring forth anything ? No, but at least I didn't die of food poisoning. grrrr. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jul 25, 1998 at 19:02:04 (EDT)
From: Gail Email: None To: Selena Subject: Ground work for riches Message: AND IT IS DIVINE - December 1974 'If people provide the knower of inner truth with comforts and luxuries, he enjoys them and plays with them like a child. He bears no outward mark of a holy man.' Shankara Play with: real estate, chattels, other women, drugs, booze, cigarettes, swiss bank accounts, unsuspecting fools' minds ___________________________ Ex-premies: We are deluded. We must start practising satsang, service, meditation and darshan immediately. Look at what Shankara said. Who was Shankara? Did he exist. By the way, another ex-premie just gave me a box full of old magazines and news rags. Is anyone interested? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jul 25, 1998 at 19:58:38 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Gail Subject: I'll take one or two Message: Gail, I'm always interested in raking over the coals of my/our past, looking for fool's gold. Sure, I'll take some. Jim Heller 7 - 547 Herald Street Victoria, B.C. V8W 1S5 Thanks, Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jul 25, 1998 at 04:16:58 (EDT)
From: Jim and Gerry Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Physical bodies Message: This is to confirm that Gerry is flesh and blood as am I. Guess what he looks like? Wrong! Chris, it's so good to see you speak up for a change. Reading you giving VP shit like that was almost as entertaining as watching South Park tonight. Chris, have you ever seen that show? Did it make you laugh? Did you laugh in your tummy? Where did you laugh, Chris? Come on, be honest. In your tummy? Did you? Or did you laugh in your heart of all places? Did you laugh in your mind? Huh? Mind, tummy or heart? How 'bout your pee pee? Chris, your guru has been fucking this Monica chick for YEARS now. What do you think of that? And that Fakiranand thing... he was the one who planned just how to get him out of the country. Personally, I'M laughing in my tummy. Gerry, where are you laughing? (Gerry says he's laughing in his pee pee!) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jul 25, 1998 at 20:13:19 (EDT)
From: Barney Email: None To: Jim and Gerry Subject: Physical bodies Message: Monica Lewis! Is this for real? Too much like the other infamous Monica. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jul 25, 1998 at 01:03:23 (EDT)
From: Gail Email: None To: Everyone Subject: No Goal Setting Message: Now MJ is telling the faithful not to set goals. Can you imagine? He went on to give all the reasons (which I can't remember). He is consciously removing all dreams and hopes from premies so that all they have is faith in him. HE MUST BE STOPPED. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jul 25, 1998 at 01:26:28 (EDT)
From: cp Email: None To: Gail Subject: No Goal Setting Message: Gail- Is this recent? It is grim news. That is alot of robots under his control..... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jul 25, 1998 at 01:42:10 (EDT)
From: Gail Email: None To: cp Subject: No Goal Setting Message: According to my friend, that video was shown 1.5 weeks ago. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jul 25, 1998 at 05:49:58 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Gail Subject: No Goal Setting! Right Message: Yeah, how can you expect anything from maharaji? Except deceit .... maybe some will finally understand? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jul 25, 1998 at 09:01:21 (EDT)
From: John Hammond-Smyth Email: padded.cell@asylum.com To: Gail Subject: No Goal Setting Message: And with no goal in life where will we end up? Destitute, lonely, poor, ill, and with no human relationships of any help or meaning. Surely we are nothing. Just annoying filth at the lotus feet. We have no right to have any goals because we are scum and cannot trust ourselves to be anything in this world. Only Maharaji is anything. We are less than human. And our pathetic lives are only given meaning by our master. Here is another quote from our glorious saviour: When Marolyn told Maharaji one day that she was really blissed out because she had just been talking to a premie who said that he wanted to devote his whole life to Maharaji; Maharaji simply looked bored and retorted that what was the big deal about this premie giving his life to him when the premie's life was just garbage anyway? O wonderous master of the Universe, your compassion and wisdom know no bounds! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 26, 1998 at 13:53:43 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: John Hammond-Smyth Subject: No Goal Setting Message: All of which, when it happens to any premie that becomes an ex, will prove that M was right all along. Man, has he ever got the hooks in those poor folks. Not permitting his followers to set goals ENSURES that they will fail when they quit him. ARE YOU CURRENT PREMIES LISTENING? DO YOU HEAR WHAT HE IS SAYING? DO YOU UNDERSTAND THE IMPLICATIONS? GET OUT NOW, WHILE YOU STILL HAVE THE CHANCE! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jul 25, 1998 at 12:41:34 (EDT)
From: G's mom Email: None To: Gail Subject: no goals?? Message: In what context did he say this? Weird! He is going to encounter some problems. In the past the lord has been rather the goal setter ( houses, cars, planes) if the premies can't set goals how can they get him these things? Or is it that he is the only one allowed to set goals? So the premies have no personal goals that compete with his cars, homes, planes goals? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jul 25, 1998 at 14:04:05 (EDT)
From: Selena Email: None To: G's mom Subject: no goals?? Message: This is nothing new. M has always discouraged material success. The ashram lifestyle certainly did. And the whole Hindu thing in general puts the spirutual world and devotion about the material world. I would like to have heard the specific quote though, just to see how he is doing it in 98, since I have been away from my lord and master since the end of 97. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 24, 1998 at 23:14:35 (EDT)
From: For KK Email: None To: Everyone Subject: For Gary Ockendon, Mike Donner Message: Hello Gary,Mike. I don't know how it was for you when you left. Maybe you were up close or had a good grapevine and knew enough of maharaji's behaviour so that you could leave and start a new life a long time ago. Maybe you walked away knowing a lot and just didn't realize like all the insiders that walked away that you should have tried to alert those that were not close about the real nature of prem rawat. There are many people still caught in the programming we all got in the seventies and early eighties. Right now, kissing his feet is going on again, the lord of the universe and other songs are played at events, if you want the knowledge you have to drop your religion, the marketing of prem rawat as god incarnate is going on in 90 countries, the people there have no defense against the videos that show footage of when YOU used to be in the audience at the big events and exerpted messages about how he is the 'master' of life is fed to innocent people. YOU spent many hours telling us all about how we should look at maharaji, YOU walked away without helping us to walk away. We need your testimony about how prem rawat is not god incarnate. He has insulated himself from people and is foisting a world guru savior trip on many innocent folks. YOU know it is not true. YOU know how he was in person. Why no one has come forward to stand like a man and tell the truth is a question that we ask. It is totally unfair that many will live thier whole lives trapped and no one is trying to inform them enough the truth that you saw and heard. Would you please consider the consequences of inaction? Would you please consider the years that those of us that were not close spent and are spending because of the very strong theater that we went through. If there is no honesty coming from those that know, then actually all the inner circle that fled without extending a helping hand could be considered partners in a crime in hiding. After all the satsang programming the inner circle gave us, all the cheerleading that the mahatmas gave us to lock us into a false life eating cult, really, you must see the responsibility to come forward and speak the truth so that those trapped can have a helping hand. I just got out in 97. How would YOU have liked to have done that? Some people here helped me. Will you please state the truth so that others can be free to live thier lives following thier own impulses and not the cult's programming. bill burke Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jul 25, 1998 at 01:01:12 (EDT)
From: Gail Email: None To: Bill Burke Subject: Re: The Important Ones Message: I am in agreement with you, Bill. However, I can understand why they didn't. Would we have believed them? At that time there was no FORUM. As I have already mentioned, I saw it was a hoax many times, but there was always another concerned cult member to delude one back in. Anne Johnson was fairly informative while she was here. She kept telling me to quit smoking. She confirmed that MJ was a smoker. Of course, there is a reason--he needs worldly things to keep him grounded; otherwise, he would just naturally leave his human form. All is not well with the upper echelons. She mentioned that Joan Apter was angry with MJ and the trip. However, I saw Joan right after darshan handing out facial tissues for the blubbering ones. At least we're out now. It's painful sometimes. Christ, I don't even believe in God anymore. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jul 25, 1998 at 01:33:08 (EDT)
From: CP Email: None To: Gail Subject: Re: The Important Ones Message: Where did gary and mike originate? Does anybody have the connection to the white pages on the continent? Maybe a few of them could make a Bob Mishler type of statemant. Its just a suggestion. I find this business about about 'no goal setting' eerie. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jul 25, 1998 at 01:45:25 (EDT)
From: Gail Email: None To: CP Subject: Re: The Important Ones Message: Gary is a Cannuck who was an initiator. Mike Donner was a draft-dodger who came to Canada. After he did jail time, MJ had him be an initiator, too. (I have the article here.) Both of them had the common sense to leave years ago. I guess they don't want to share their experiences and info about MJ. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jul 25, 1998 at 01:53:23 (EDT)
From: CP Email: None To: Gail Subject: Re: The Important Ones Message: Do you think these people know about the forum? Maybe if they knew the latest they would step forward. If they got out years ago, they would hardly be looking up M on the internet. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jul 25, 1998 at 01:56:22 (EDT)
From: Gail Email: None To: CP Subject: Re: The Important Ones Message: Jim Heller went on vacation with them last week (this week?) He is going to mention it to them. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jul 25, 1998 at 09:34:23 (EDT)
From: Katie Email: None To: Gail and cp Subject: Why people don't go public Message: It takes people different amounts of time before they are ready to speak up (and speak out). I would imagine that being 'important' in MJ's organization and being enmeshed in the whole trip would be something really hard to shake off. Maybe you wouldn't want to deal with it for a while - you might need to put your life back together again. I know that a few people on here said it took them several years after leaving before they even wanted to talk about it again. Also, as we all know, there are are certain risks associated with speaking out, especially if you know a lot. Having said that, I really applaud you, Gail, for going public and speaking out RIGHT AWAY. (I know other people on here have done that too, and this goes for them as well). It takes a lot of courage, but you are helping other people so much. Thank you, Gail. Katie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jul 25, 1998 at 12:09:26 (EDT)
From: G's mom Email: None To: all Subject: Why people don't go public Message: I must agree with Katie. I feel that to expect other people to speak out and take the embarrassment or other risks that might be associated with that is unfair. I think it is an individual decision and really I think only the person who has to deal with the consequences of that decision has a right to judge. I imagine the risks for a person who attained a insider status in the cult not only has all the reasons the rest of us have to be anon. ( family, work, etc) but also there could be a bigger fear of retribution. I personally do not mind at all if KK is anonymous. I admire her strength so speaking out and sharing with us her experiences and insights. I think it is ABOVE and BEYOND the call of duty. And if there are others like her considering posting I would encourage them to do it only when they are ready. What they have to say is valued and I think may truly help people who may join or are still in the cult, as well as us ex's. But I disagree that they should be critisized for remaining silent. If they speak up, yes, applaud them, but if they are quiet I think we more than anyone should empathize with why they are silent. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jul 25, 1998 at 16:19:56 (EDT)
From: Gail Email: None To: G's mom Subject: Why people don't go public Message: I don't think Bill was asking for their name. He was hoping that people from the inner circle would shed light on what was going on to help others to leave. Their identity is inconsequential, really. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 26, 1998 at 02:34:16 (EDT)
From: KK Email: None To: Gail, Katie, G's Mom Subject: Why people don't go public Message: The diffiiculty with getting involved in speaking out is that it brings up a whole lot of past stuff which is less than inspiring. If you overcome the cancer scare, you don't feel like combing the cancer wards uninvited having extended dialogue particularly if the treatment/ prognosis of the patients is bad and they're praising the quality of the process they're in. Most premies are non-negotiable. They don't feel there's much to talk about. All the big questions have been answered. It's an easy life when you've worked out how to stay solvent, get to programs, juggle the politics of the competitive piranha-like hierarchy and avoid any hard questions (does he really smoke? etc etc (this is mild, there are others which are far more troubling but you learn to flick them away like buzzing mosquitoes). It's a personal thing. People like some people and want to talk about some things. Not about everything to everyone all the time or right now. Life is democratic. People may not get the experiences they deserve. But they do get choices. I don't feel sorry for premies. I feel grateful I'm not a self-indulgent twerp in an elite club called whatever name it's reinvented itself as. That's my business. It's very true. It takes years to talk about these things. Mainly because a lot of energy must be spent in catching up with survival issues and the thought of getting sucked back in in any way is so horrifying it quarantines any contact to fleeting or non-existent. Including mental deliberations. Plus there's guilt. Nowadays from the macro of the real world the micro of the rarified cult world of MJ looks so petty, tyrannical and irrelevant as to be pathetic. But hey, that's only my opinion. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 26, 1998 at 11:36:30 (EDT)
From: bb Email: None To: KK Subject: Thanks for all you have donekk Message: Hi KK, I only put your name in the from section at the last moment and the post was really directed at those two. JM and Mark are also people who stood up from the close ranks. I felt afterwards I should have not used your initials but it was really just to flag your attention to the post and thank you for responding. Your previous posts are saved and are going to help others. I understand you comments about premies and all I would say is that there are many who are not staunch and fiesty. They just have not had any input that can free them from from the long term and very heavy 'I am god' stuff from prem rawat. He is involving many people in many countries and just because the austrailian numbers may be stalled now does not lessen the need for the truth about him to be told and available so that honesty and facts stand a chance. Some wonder and get stuck on the idea that feeling the breath is a good thing to do and so the 'knowledge' should be spread. But if something is actually a plus, it can be added to the general knowledge of people without having someone do this global 'I am god incarnate' 'master of life' religion that is definately false. Mike Donner knows me and also was involved with me at times during the time he knew better about prem rawat. He left soon after although I didn't know where and why. He is the one the post was really directed at although Gary fit the post also. Excuse me for using your initials. I think I look to you because I have friends that need informed help to make the break to the honest facts. Thanks for all you have done KK. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 27, 1998 at 11:33:50 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: bb Subject: Bill, please read Message: Hi KK, I only put your name in the from section at the last moment and the post was really directed at those two. JM and Mark are also people who stood up from the close ranks. I felt afterwards I should have not used your initials but it was really just to flag your attention to the post and thank you for responding. Bill, Don't you think it's unnecessarily rude to hide your identity from readers? Why do you always have to make such a big deal about expressing yourself like this? I'm sure that you, like anyone else here, likes to know who's post you're reading. Why not extend that same courtesy to others? You know, you've got all this white space here to say whatever the hell you want. You've got the subject line to say a little more. Why can't you just identify yourself clearly as the poster and jut eliminate any needless confusion? Really, Bill, it might not be world peace but I'm sure it will make the world a better place. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 28, 1998 at 03:22:19 (EDT)
From: bill Email: bill To: Jim Subject: read Message: You and cd like the name at the front. Well, ok. I recently got a call from someone way up at the tipity top of m world. He doesn't know I post here and I thought I should drop my name from here to maintain the link. When I get back from Princeton I will start with a new name and stick to it. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 28, 1998 at 03:49:44 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: bill Subject: Bill, I don't understand Message: You and cd like the name at the front. Well, ok. Bill, I really don't want to argue about this. But let's face it, I'm sure that most, if not all, the people here want to know who's post they're reading. You really don't think that? Why do you think CD and I are alone in thinking so? I recently got a call from someone way up at the tipity top of m world. He doesn't know I post here and I thought I should drop my name from here to maintain the link. This really confuses me. First, how could anyone read the forum for any length of time and NOT know you? You are posting under your real name, aren't you? Or are you? Also, do you really care that much to avoid alienating cult members by a little truth? That surprises me too. When I get back from Princeton I will start with a new name and stick to it. So your name here, the one I know, is just a pseudonym? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jul 28, 1998 at 13:47:13 (EDT)
From: Carol Email: coopmtncarol@hotmail.com To: Jim Subject: Bill, I don't understand Message: I am confused, too. Are bb, *<*, beeb,and Bill all the same person. Did he also recently post as 'toddler in the tub' (to which I answered)???How does Bill cooper post? Am I confusing them? e-mail me if you don't want to share here! carol Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jul 29, 1998 at 13:45:53 (EDT)
From: VP Email: None To: bill Subject: your name, bill Message: bill, I do like to know who I am reading, but I can almost always ID your posts. It's your name and your decision. (Preaching to the choir here.) What's in a name? A rose by any other name would smell as sweet. -William Shakespeare Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 26, 1998 at 08:34:56 (EDT)
From: Sir David Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: Gail Subject: That's a real gem, Gail Message: Gail wrote: 'Anne Johnson was fairly informative while she was here. She kept telling me to quit smoking. She confirmed that MJ was a smoker. Of course, there is a reason--he needs worldly things to keep him grounded; otherwise, he would just naturally leave his human form.' I can't (can actually) believe that premies will just accept any behavour of Maharaji's and give such ridiculious explainations for it. You should have told Anne Johnson that you smoke for the same reason. Tell her you're the next perfect master/mistress. This is getting dafter by the minute! And now Haharaji says no pets! Anyone who can just disown a faithful animal is not only cruel, but inhuman in my book. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 26, 1998 at 14:00:24 (EDT)
From: G's mom Email: None To: Sir David Subject: disowning faithful animals Message: But we, the former faithful animals, bit the hand that fed us...he is now wary of pets......(alas, in reality we were feeding him, and we have the bite marks to prove it) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 26, 1998 at 14:39:10 (EDT)
From: Rick Email: None To: G's mom Subject: disowning faithful animals Message: Thought you'd like this quote, G-Mom: I care not much for a mans religion whose dog and cat are not the better for it. Abraham Lincoln Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 26, 1998 at 17:39:25 (EDT)
From: g's mom Email: None To: Rick Subject: quote Message: Thanks Rick :) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 27, 1998 at 10:31:36 (EDT)
From: Katie Email: None To: Rick Subject: quote Message: Thanks from me too, Rick. That's one for the refrigerator. Lincoln also said 'I am in favor of animal rights as well as human rights. That is the way of the whole human being.' He was a right-thinking man for his time. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 27, 1998 at 09:41:12 (EDT)
From: jethro Email: None To: Sir David Subject: That's a real gem, Gail Message: ' I can't (canactually) believe that premies will just accept any behavour of Maharaji's and give such ridiculious explainations for it. ' This behaviour is typical of any belief system. If you speak to any of the believers major religions/cults/systems, they start off by the core belief that they have the truth,,,so if a contracdiction is pointed out they take it as a hidden meaning not yet revealed. .....basically they justify any action the leader might do as being for the greater good. I recently asked a pemie friend of mine if he woud still follow prempal if he was sure that that prempal did noithing about sexual(and other) abuse allegations against his oficers. My friend, after 5 minutes silence said 'i don't know how to answer that', so I said to him the question(and many others) was a rhetorical one that followers needed to think about. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jul 25, 1998 at 10:37:28 (EDT)
From: Sir David Email: David.Studio57@btintrnet.com To: Bill Subject: Well said Bill Message: You put it very well there. I'm going to post something about Marolyn later on. I'll put it at the top as a new thread. Nothing earth shattering but a good insight into what has happened to her. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 24, 1998 at 17:52:28 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Everyone Subject: One fast post Message: Very fast I saw Gary Ockenden and Mike Donner earlier this week. Thet took Laurie and me out to dinner in a beautiful country restaurant in the Kootenays that -- surprise, surprise, -- used to be the ashram back when Tejeshwaranand was turning on the whoel valley and getting girls pregnant during knowledge sessions. More on that later. (Gary, if you read this, it was great seeing you. Hope you enjoy the book). I just got a call from Gerry who's waiting down at the big totem pole for us to pick him up so I've got to go. In the meantime, though, Joe, check out this site: Chomsky's a weenie There's more where that came from. Becky, You found that stuff from the Lucifer Principle about Islam 'interesting'? INTERESTING? If it's true that Mohammed slaughtered 900 women and children I'd look elswhere for a women's rights poster boy. Gotta go, Gerry's waiting. I just want to add that: 1) I have no doubt now whatsoever about Monica Lewis' long-standing affair with Maharaji. None. 2) Maharaji definitely was involved with getting Fakiranand out of the country. 3) Chris, can I substitute a little Cab' for Merlot if that's all I've got? And how about basil? If so, how much? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 24, 1998 at 18:29:12 (EDT)
From: stray cat Email: None To: Jim Subject: One fast post Message: Why do I love thee? Let me count the ways. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 24, 1998 at 20:01:31 (EDT)
From: Nigel Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: Jim Subject: Chomsky link Message: Jim, did you even read this? Are these the kind of writers you really want on your side in an argument? I printed out twelve sides of this emotive tripe and have waded through four pages so far. Without challenging Chomsky on any point of fact, the authors seem to be doing no more than piling on layer upon layer of innuendo (not an Italian suppository) and loaded phrases like: 'Once a prestigious specialist in his field [but no more?] Chomsky turned his pen... to political themes' '...in a seemingly endless series of tracts' [rather than essays / articles etc.] '...he has argued compulsively [my italics] that the evil of American motives is so transparent that...' [ever heard of putting words into peoples' mouths?] I am most annoyed by: '...his defense of Robert Faurison, a leading intellectual proponent of the claim that the Nazi holocaust is a 'Zionist hoax.' No longer published in The New York Review of Books and other prestigious liberal magazines that once clamoured for his essays, Chomsky has become the Dr. Demento of American political commentary' The authors are implying Chomsky is a nazi, and now even his pinko liberal chums have abandoned him. Crap. The whole point about 'defending' Faurison, was about defending the right to speak - not defending the right to commit genocide. Defeat the argument rather than suppress it. I would agree. Chomsky believes in freedom of speech absolutely, and has said this many times, only drawing the line at the point where someone shouts 'fire' to a gunman pointing a weapon at someone. Just out of interest, where would you draw the line on freedom of speech? You tend to speak pretty freely about things... Oh, I can't be bothered. Jim, THIS IS SUCH CRAP , (badly-written too) and if you'd even read it properly, I'm sure you would agree (I hope????) I could carry on, but I can't believe you've any real emotional investment in putting Chomsky down. (I don't have much emotional investment in defending him either, but this stuff is bad news.) Best wishes, |
Date: Sat, Jul 25, 1998 at 14:36:47 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Nigel Subject: Nigel, choose your weapon! Message: Hey Nige, As you must know I never read anything I link to. That's why they call it 'surfing', isn't it? No, I just did a search under 'Chomsky weenie' and that's what I got. Hey, don't blame me. Blame Alta Vista. No, I read it. I also read the reviews by readers on the book's own site (an average 4 1/2 stars out of 5). I side with the readers. A couple crticized the authors for over-generalizing in places and for over-emphasizing the marxist underpinnings of sixties leftism. Without reading the book, but considering the readers' comments, my guess is that I'd probably agree. Over 'emotive'? Yeah, maybe. On the other hand, maybe not. I don't know. I'd have to read the whole thing. But, I can tell you right now that I've absolutely no probem with the word 'tract', which I think artfully places Chomsky's polemics in perspective or 'compulsive' which I also think is apt. Yes I do, yes I do. As surely as I am compelled to sit here and post away, Chomsky, I believe, is compelled to look for America's evil in EVERYTHING it touches. Like some fool obsessed with finding faces in marble, Chomsky just can't let it go. Let's deal with your strongest crticism (by the way, he says, not at all attempting to co-opt the 'enemy', congratulations on getting the job.): >'...his defense of Robert Faurison, a leading intellectual proponent of the claim that the Nazi holocaust is a 'Zionist hoax.' No longer published in The New York Review of Books and other prestigious liberal magazines that once clamoured for his essays, Chomsky has become the Dr. Demento of American political commentary' The authors are implying Chomsky is a nazi, and now even his pinko liberal chums have abandoned him. Crap. The whole point about 'defending' Faurison, was about defending the right to speak - not defending the right to commit genocide. Defeat the argument rather than suppress it. I would agree. You're exaggerating a little emotively yourself here, Nigel. Chomsky DID defend Faurisson's rights to publish and yes, I agree with him there. You're right, the authors DO describe the situation too vaguely for comfort. One point for you. The authors aren't perfect, they're angry and, yes, they took a bit of a pot shot. Fair enough. However, Nige, they say so much more than that. Why have you only dealt with the surface of their critique and at the same time accused them of superficiality? I don't think anyone reading the excerpt on the other end of the link would agree that the authors avoid any substantive (i.e. factual) criticism. What ABOUT Cambodia, huh? Here: In a series of articles and then in voluminous books, Chomsky laid out an argument designed not only to rescue the Left from the bloody cul-de-sac into which its extremism had led it in the Vietnam years, but also to frame a moral indictment of U.S. policy that would allow the Left to resume the offensive against the 'Amerika' its fantasies had created in the Sixties. After the Cataclysm, for instance, the second of two volumes Chomsky published under the portentous title The Political Economy of Human Rights, is a systematic effort to erase the catastrophic results of the Communist victory in Southeast Asia and to pin the blame for the tragedies that occurred there on the malevolence of the defeated combatant, the United States. Chomsky sets out to argue in this work that the Communist genocide in Cambodia was the big lie Washington created to reconstruct its own rationale for world domination. As the Communist rebel armies approached Phnom Penh, Chomsky and other radicals were not alone in celebrating the U.S. defeat they believed would initiate the dawn of a new era of 'social justice' in Indochina. The last U.S. official was being helicoptered out of Saigon when the liberal New York Times reporter Sydney Schanberg filed a story under the suggestive headline 'Indochina Without Americans: For Most, a Better Life?' One month earlier, the liberal columnist Anthony Lewis had asked: 'What future could possibly be more terrible than the reality of what is happening to Cambodia now?' As the bodies began to pile up, however, the Lewises got their answers. Sadder of not wiser, they finally deserted the cause of the Khmer Rouge. But not Chomsky. He was still busily working on an intellectual edifice designed to conceal the atrocities of the Communist liberators. This cover-up, in the words of David Hawk, former antiwar activist and later director of the Cambodia Documentation Commission, included 'confident assertions that the reports of atrocities were exaggerated propaganda; letters of protest to human rights groups that sought to mobilize opinion against the atrocities ... [attacks on] the reliability of the refugee accounts and the honesty and credibility of the journalists and publications that gathered, reported and printed the terrible atrocities recounted by the refugees lucky enough to survive escape attempts from the Khmer Rouge.' The disinformation campaign had a significant impact. In Hawk's words, 'The alacrity and persistence of Pol Pot's defenders diverted attention and refocused discussion from 'how should Khmer Rouge bloodlust best be exposed and protested' to 'whether or not the refugee accounts were exaggerated and were the accounts of largely politically motivated propaganda.'' Hawk believes that Chomsky's grotesque thesis had 'a chilling effect on the mobilization of opinion against the Cambodian genocide.' Chomsky's goal in denying the atrocities was less to defend the Khmer Rouge than to prevent the gruesome facts of their genocide from deflecting guilt from the United States. Thus he tricked out his cover-up as an 'analysis' of how the American media were 'brainwashing' the public with concocted reports of Communist misdeeds in order to reconstruct the 'imperial ideology' of the pre-Vietnam era. In the Thirties, protected by the Stalinist monolith, Chomsky's argument might have remained convincing, at least for a while, as were the impassioned assertions of American progressives of that era that reports of a famine and genocide in the Ukraine were not only false but malicious. But there was no Stalinist Ministry of Truth to protect Chomsky when he was betrayed by Pol Pot, author of atrocities that were finally too horrible to be hidden and head of a revolution so mad that his North Vietnamese sponsors finally invaded and conquered Cambodia, adding another 350,000 deaths to the already enormous toll. Chomsky was just completing his 160-page, footnoted assault on the Western media for fabricating the genocide that Hanoi was now ready to confirm. He responded not by throwing out the pages of his perverse text but by hedging its claims. 'When the facts are in,' Chomsky now speculated, 'it may turn out that the more extreme condemnations were in fact correct.' Moreover, he added: If a serious study of the impact of Western imperialism on Cambodian peasant life is someday undertaken, it may well be discovered that the violence lurking behind the Khmer smile ... is not a reflection of obscure traits in peasant culture and psychology, but is the direct and understandable response to the violence of the imperial system, and that its current manifestations are a no less direct and understandable response to the still more concentrated and extreme savagery of a U.S. assault that may in part have been designed to evoke this very response... [Emphasis added.] In other words, the Khmer Rouge were really innocent of the atrocities Chomsky was now forced to concede they might have committed. Why? Because the U.S. devil made them do it. Why would the U.S. make them commit such crimes? Chomsky had a ready answer: In order to discredit the socialist future. In making these arguments, Chomsky had discovered the Archimedean principle of the Leftist revival. I'm sorry to disappoint you, Nigel, but I think the authors have written a good scathing attack. Rarther than piling on 'layer upon layer of innuendo' as you suggest, they straightforwardly attack Chomsky's unfounded rhetoric. No, they don't footnote as extinsively as Mr. Filing Cabinet himself does but that doesn't mean they're not frank and direct. No, I think they make their case handsomely. Chomsky's several quotes more than prove the point that he certainly does subscribe to 'The Devil Made me Do it'ism, th4e 'Devil' being Uncle Sam. I can accept taht you don't like their style but why not look past that? I think they're saying a LOT here that you're not addressing. What ABOUT Cambodia? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jul 25, 1998 at 16:31:42 (EDT)
From: Nigel Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: Jim Subject: Nigel, choose your weapon! Message: Hi, Jim, I've cooled right down and read the thing right through properly now, and I have to say that, thanks to you, my opinions of the piece have shifted not one inch. However, when I described the piece as 'badly-written', it might have been more appropriate to describe it as badly argued. I doubt if Chomsky is beyond criticism (and who without lotus feet is beyond criticism?), but the inflammatory terms used throughout this piece merely serve to mask the lack of evidence presented in support of those arguments. If Chomsky has indeed attempted to (a) deny / play down, or (b) justify the Cambodian genocide, I for one for would join the authors in condemning him. These are actually the most serious allegations, and seeing how the authors have used direct Chomsky quotations wherever possible, it strikes me as strange they haven't managed to find any to support these, the most serious of their points. (And it is Chomsky's own words, not Hawk's which count here.) We are told that Chomsky attacks the media for 'fabricating' the genocide, 'in a 160 page footnoted assault'. Again I suspect they are putting words (or meanings) into his mouth here, otherwise, surely there must be some nugget of evidence in these 160 pages that is worth a direct quotation? What, instead, do they offer us? violence lurking behind the Khmer smile ... is not a reflection of obscure traits in peasant culture and psychology, but is the direct and understandable[my emphasis] response to the violence of the imperial system, etc. If this is the most incriminiating thing they can find, well... I am assuming that both you, Jim, and the authors are reading 'understandable' as 'justifiable'. I believe here Chomsky is using the word in its literal meaning (Chomsky is careful with precision of meaning in language, remember - it's his thing - or was, back in the days when he used to be an expert!). 'Understandable' = 'that which may be understood'. I don't want to get into a debate here about semantics or post-colonial politics, but in terms of simple cause and effect, there is a recurring tendency for small countries newly emerging from imperial domination (whether we are talking American, British, Russian, French etc.) to go through periods of extreme instability during which unstable monsters/generals/dictators seize control. Sometimes the former imperial governments help them do so, then prop them up if they believe it will serve their own interests, as with France (in Rwanda) or America (in Chile, and various other South American tin-pot set-ups). Remember how Britain and America helped their good friend Saddam Hussein build up his army back in the days when Iran were the baddies? The official political colouring is generally irrelevant under whichever kind of dictatorship is holding the power. The authors, not once in twelve pages ever consider (a) whether Chomsky might have made a fair point now and again, or (b) whether America's foreign policy pursued ruthlessly over two decades was ever less than pure and honourable. I thought that (at least since Bob Hope did the 'Missing' movie!) even the average hawkish republican had come to regret some of the military/political interventions of the 70's and 80's as being at least misguided, if not plain wrong. But these guys seem to be suffering from exactly the blinkered vision they are accusing Chomsky of. There are a number of important - however inconvenient - facts surrounding the Cambodian situation which are conveniently forgotten, such as while it was Vietnam who had to intervene to remove Pol Pot, America, Britain and others continued to recognise only Pol Pot's regime as 'legitimate' - long after the facts of the genocide were known. (Presumably, if it been America that had driven the Khmer Rouge out, the country would have been 'liberated' rather than: invaded and conquered Funny stuff, language, as Chomps will tell you. You claim: Rather than piling on 'layer upon layer of innuendo' as you suggest, they straightforwardly attack Chomsky's unfounded rhetoric Straighforward, it ain't, Jim, IMHO. And I'm still waiting for a pursuasive example of 'unfounded rhetoric'. You, Jim, are good at arguing - certainly better than these guys with their monochrome specs on. That is why I wasn't sure whether you'd read the thing. I'd be interested to know what JW reckons of it. That's all I wanna say on this. (Probably taken up too much forum space already - and the Monica Lewis story is much more interesting right now). It's been nice talking, Jim, and thanks for good wishes regarding job. Maybe we'll have to agree to disagree on this one (at least till I've seen some more persuasive evidence) Time to lock up the modem again, so I'll speak to you whenever. All the best, Nigel Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 26, 1998 at 01:00:18 (EDT)
From: Nigel Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: Jim Subject: Not Bob Hope, Jack Lemon (..?) Message: ...oops. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 26, 1998 at 07:29:52 (EDT)
From: Niggle Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: Jim Subject: An afterthought... Message: I'm glad you agreed on the issue of freedom of speech, Jim, but look again at the passage in question: Often reaching paranoid extremes, his animus would serve to stigmatize anyone of less imposing credentials as a political crank. And to some extent Chomsky has earned precisely that reputation, despite his achievements as a linguist, through such episodes as his defense of Robert Faurisson, a leading intellectual proponent of the claim that the Nazi Holocaust is a 'Zionist hoax.' Collier and Horowitz are stating quite clearly that Chomsky's association with Faurisson makes him a 'political crank'. They are, in my opinion, deliberately misleading the reader. They know damn well what Chomsky was on about, but misrepresent him in a way that makes him look like a 'holocaust denier' - a handy smear to use when they are about to argue that that is exactly what Chomsky is. This really is a sleazy tactic, in my opinion. Say in your everyday work, Jim, you found yourself defending some lowlife scum in the courthouse who is guilty as satan himself. I guess you'd be rather piqued if people thereafter started referring to you as 'that Jim Heller who spoke up in support of child-killer x '. There is always, inevitably, a degree of 'reading between the lines' that goes on when you or I read an extract from a book like this. Not having immediate access to the sources in question means we must make certain assumptions on what is or is not reliable to believe. I made one such assumption concerning the absence of a direct quote where Chomsky uses the word 'fabrication' (or equivalent) - when the authors have obviously scoured this 160 page document in search of one... The other assumption I have made centres on this cheap, near-slanderous Faurisson paragraph. That combined with the incessant mocking tone throughout suggests to me 'hatchet job': let's do the bastard regardless of whether or not he deserves it. Look at it like this: Uri Geller undertakes a series of scientifically-control mind-reading experiments. He's caught cheating during trial number 1, then goes on to amaze the experimenters for a further nine trials with what looks like psychic powers. How much credibility does this performance deserve? In His Love, Niggle Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 27, 1998 at 16:23:20 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Niggle Subject: An afterthought... Message: Collier and Horowitz are stating quite clearly that Chomsky's association with Faurisson makes him a 'political crank'. They are, in my opinion, deliberately misleading the reader. They know damn well what Chomsky was on about, but misrepresent him in a way that makes him look like a 'holocaust denier' - a handy smear to use when they are about to argue that that is exactly what Chomsky is. This really is a sleazy tactic, in my opinion. I agree but with some reservation. Don't you think that the Faurisson incident did indeed lessen Chomsky's status to some extent? That's the impression I get. Now that may not be fair and the authors shouldn't have jumped on a misleading bandwagon if they knew better. At the least, they're guilty of being a little reckless, maybe worse, maybe a little misleading. On the other hand, I think your Geller analogy is a really bad fit. Geller claims supernatural abilities and is caught cheating. Unless he's got some really good explanation and proof of seperate claims -- good proof -- he's outta there. These guys aren't just telling ehir own story. Even if they hate Chomsky and can't be trusted to present a fair picture, they still argue facts and circumstances that aren't within their control. Again, Nige, what ABOUT their Cambodia / Vietnam claim? Sounds pretty damning to me. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jul 25, 1998 at 15:08:26 (EDT)
From: CD Email: None To: Nigel Subject: Chomsky link Message: Chomsky link Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jul 25, 1998 at 09:40:41 (EDT)
From: Katie Email: None To: Jim Subject: One other fast post Message: Hey Jim - We are about to leave to meet JW today in order to verify his existence in the real world. [JW has brought cool (80's) weather to the 'flyover states' with him from San Francisco, and everyone's grateful for that, lemme tell you.] I'll tell him the Chomsky link's on line, but after Nigel's review, I doubt that he'll rush to a computer to look it up. Take care, Katie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jul 25, 1998 at 15:11:01 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Katie Subject: One other fast post Message: Katie, I think you'll find JW quivering under his bed because of that link. Coax him out and take him for dinner. He'll like that. Have a good trip. Are you going to see the good pastor while you're out there? Of course, you must. But how about going south and dropping in on what's-his-face in Malibu? No not HIM (although if it was his birthday you might be invited to climb the hill in your best clothes like he once arranged). No, I mean Mark or anyone else you might know who lives in between. (wink!) Thanks a lot for the stuff you sent. It IS incredible, the way we got all inspired to loosen up like crazy in 1975 & 6. Well, we're finally loose! Have a great trip. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jul 27, 1998 at 00:26:07 (EDT)
From: Katie Email: None To: Jim Subject: Iowa NOT California Message: Jim - We met Joe in his home state (Iowa), so we couldn't drop in on M on the way home. But we had a good time anyway. BTW, I told Joe about the Chomsky link and he just laughed and said something about being on vacation. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 24, 1998 at 16:25:59 (EDT)
From: VP Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Jim-please read Message: Jim, If you log on again before Monday, I sent you an email. Anonymously of course :) I won't be home to see if you have replied until then. I'm going to the mountains to do something real besides speculate about the knowledge session I never attended-g. Just kidding. The trip has been planned for a while. Everyone have a great weekend-VP Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 24, 1998 at 17:16:57 (EDT)
From: nigel Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: VP Subject: Jim-please read Message: You too have a great weekend, Veeps. Thanks for comments below. Cheers. Nigel Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 24, 1998 at 08:44:07 (EDT)
From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: Everyone Subject: Overseas Contributors Snag Message: I've been made aware of a problem that exists in trying to convert Foreign Funds (doesn't apply to Canadian) in the US bank used by the site server. Those of you who are sending money from overseas, please email me first for a revised payment method before you mail it off. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jul 25, 1998 at 01:04:46 (EDT)
From: Gail Email: None To: Brian Subject: Overseas Contributors Snag Message: Do you need money now? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 24, 1998 at 01:15:34 (EDT)
From: Nigel Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: Everyone Subject: Off-topic. Got the job! Message: Dear all, I'd just like to thank everyone again who responded to my 'motivation' thread. Mike, especially, I found your posts quite inspirational. When you said Shut off your insecurities, like your life depended on it. Be calm and make it happen, this was excellent advice. I found myself picturing 'the ideal candidate' for the job, and suddenly it seemed quite easy to actually be that ideal candidate adopting appropriate body language and confident manner. I even mananged to divert my answers from whichever line of questioning was going on into saying exactly what I wanted to say in the first place. It was like acting a role. I didn't stall or fumble for words (which is unusual for me, believe me), and as I left the interview it felt good, in that even if I hadn't got the job, I couldn't have tried any harder. Richard, your post was not 'maudlin' at all, and it really accurately reflected some of the things I have felt over the last few years our CV's have some very close similarities!) It struck me that the sense of alienation we sometimes feel among work colleagues without the premie past would probably vanish if there was just one other ex at our respective academic institutions. So if you ever want to email me regarding the ex-premie perspective on psychometric measures, go ahead (been there, drawn the bell curve...) Barney, 43 is no age at all! (I have to believe that or all else is lost). I really related to your post as well. Selena, cp, eb (that was a funny -albeit serious- post!), Carol, JW and anyone else I've forgotten, your contributions have all made the motivation issue seem less like a personal oddity and more of shared normal, but delayed, reaction. Best wishes, Nigel (43 1/2) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 24, 1998 at 02:23:46 (EDT)
From: cp Email: None To: Nigel Subject: Off-topic. Got the job! Message: that is such good news in a funny day. Congratulations Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 24, 1998 at 12:13:38 (EDT)
From: Selena Email: None To: Nigel Subject: Off-topic. Got the job! Message: Congratulations. And thanks for this post as well as the original. I loved what you said just now about playing a role, etc. I am going to save it and pull it out for that career change down the road. thanks to all the others who gave advice also.It helped me too. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 24, 1998 at 13:08:36 (EDT)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Nigel Subject: Off-topic. Got the job! Message: Dear Nigel, I haven't been attentive enough here and missed your other motivation thread and I am sorry I did. I do want to congradulate you on getting the job and doing so well in the interview. BTW I too am 43 and 1 month! Love, Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 24, 1998 at 13:19:52 (EDT)
From: RT Email: jobs r us To: Nigel who is swell. Subject: Got the job!? Go to a Program! Message: ..just kidding! I say well done, cherrio, chap. Keep a stiff upper lip and have a spot of tea. RT - who has seen a few british tv comedies. ('Watch your English!' -- Me mum used to say.) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 24, 1998 at 13:31:47 (EDT)
From: Carol Email: None To: Nigel Subject: Off-topic. Got the job! Message: Nigel, I'm really happy for you! I would be interested to know what it is you are doing and where, if you care to share. Your great first start of that thread was what elicited the good responses. There sure are a lot of 43 year-olds here! You are only as old as you think! And our bodies age differently,too, so chronological age isn't really very meaningful except as a place-marker for shared history and culture! BTW, I'm 47 1/2. Carol Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 24, 1998 at 13:38:45 (EDT)
From: T Email: None To: Carol, and whoever Subject: Off-topic. Got the job! Message: I'm 45 but writing this I feel like I am 10. - (a premie lurker) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 24, 1998 at 13:47:58 (EDT)
From: Carol Email: None To: T Subject: Hi, lurker, welcome! Message: I hope 10 was/is good for you! Carol Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 24, 1998 at 13:48:28 (EDT)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: T Subject: Off-topic. Got the job! Message: Dear T, Why, because you are disobeying daddy!? Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 24, 1998 at 15:52:01 (EDT)
From: Mickey the P Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net To: T Subject: Off-topic. Got the job! Message: I'm 44 and I'll never feel 10 again! Hey Lurker, do you know Donald Lynch? He was a friend of mine, a premie, but I've lost track of him. I've decided to ask all premies if they know him. If you do, ask him to get in contact with me at the e-mail address above. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 24, 1998 at 15:05:29 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: Nigel Subject: Off-topic. Got the job! Message: Nigel: FANTASTIC! Happy to hear you got it! And thank you for the compliment, although YOU are the one that should be receiving it, not me. ;-) Mike Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 24, 1998 at 15:51:56 (EDT)
From: VP Email: None To: Mike Subject: To your new employers, Message: They are very lucky to have you. To your new employers.... CONGRATULATIONS! You have made an excellent selection. High Regards, Nigel VP Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 24, 1998 at 15:56:14 (EDT)
From: Jerry Email: None To: Nigel Subject: Off-topic. Got the job! Message: Congratulations, Nigel! Now you know. You can do it. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 24, 1998 at 17:04:43 (EDT)
From: nigel Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: Invisible friends Subject: Off-topic. Got the job! Message: Wow! All these warm regards. And I appreciate them as much as I do those of people I know for certain actually exist. I forgot to add how I used to conquer interview nerves. It involved 'finding that place inside' and hanging on for grim death. (I'd do this way beyond my premie years ended). It does calm you down some, but tends to impress the prospective employer about as much as yawning or clutching a cuddly toy and sucking your thumb might... Selena: thanks for 'toxic thinking' (the concept, not your comments). I wish I had thought of that one. Much snappier than 'the corrupted world view'. Carol: I'll tell you what I'm doing, but I'm a little reluctant to reveal exactly where. Not sure why, since if Petrou or anyone were organising a premie hit-squad to doorstep me they'd have easily worked out exactly who and where I am by now from the clues I've dropped over the months (BTW, my real name is Yelnick McGuagua) Robyn: I think the 'motivation' thread is still active. It's certainly not in the archive yet. Read Mike's contributions - see if it doesn't make you want to join the army... The job. It's a chance to do a doctorate (PhD) over four or so years, after which I'll be qualified to discuss things with Scott. Or I could cut and run with a Master's degree after two. Me - a Master, just imagine... (see, Pam, you can become one - it isn't just something you are). Half of my time will be be giving lectures and tutorials in research methods and statistics to psychology students, and doing other things like setting up computer-based experiments. The rest of the time I'll be studying/carrying out research. My chosen specialised subject: HYPNOSIS! Me - King Dontgivemethatbollocks of the Unbeliever Tribe - studying hypnosis. What on earth were they thinking of? I can't wait... Toodle-oo, and good things all round, Nigel Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 24, 1998 at 18:51:02 (EDT)
From: Katie Email: None To: nigel Subject: Congratulations, Nigel! Message: Hey, Nigel! Congratulations, and the job sounds great. (I assume that you are going to be working in academia but maybe not?) BTW, Peter and I already thought you had your Ph.D. - shows how much WE know. I did read your original post on Motivation and have to say that I have the same problem. In my case, I believe it was already there and was reinforced by my experiences as a premie. But I definitely have that 'half-empty' way of looking at the world, and it was great to read all the replies that other people made to you, and then your post about getting the job. Thanks for starting that thread, by the way. Take care and, again, congratulations! Fond regards from Katie (born in 56) P.S. I don't know about Britain, but most people in the US were born between 1946 and 1963, which includes almost everyone on this forum. I think more babies were born in 55 and 56 than any other years. Thus I hope for less discrimination on the basis of age in the future (even for those of us who are over 40...) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 24, 1998 at 21:11:40 (EDT)
From: nigel Email: None To: Katie Subject: Just call me 'Doc' Message: Thanks Katie, It probably is a slightly blinkered view to imagine the motivation problem to be a purely ex-premie issue. In every factory, bank, and insurance company, I'd expect there are many ex -hippies, -anarchists, - yogis, -druggies, -dreamers, -non-confomists, etc., still feeling as unmotivated by society as they did way back when. And plenty of others who would be horrified if everyone else knew about the guilty secrets of their youth. P.S. I don't know about Britain, but most people in the US were born between 1946 and 1963, I don't know either, but everybody that matters seems to have been born thereabouts. I predict a decade or so of mid-life crises in high places... Best wishes, as always Nigel Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 26, 1998 at 00:16:43 (EDT)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: nigel Subject: Off-topic. Got the job! Message: Dear Yelnick, or do you still want to be called Nigel? Thanks for outing yourself, I just kept looking at your name because it is unique and because I thought Nigel was your real name. I don't care about people being anon. but I also love it when people feel safe enough to share themselves. Thank you. I just LOVE that you will be working on Hypnosis!!! You'll have to keep us up on your impressions and finding. :) Good luck! Love, Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 26, 1998 at 01:18:53 (EDT)
From: Nigel Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: Robyn Subject: Off-topic. Got the job! Message: Dear Robyn, Sorry, but it is Nigel. I was just trying to give the premie hit-squad a false lead. There was an episode of Cheers once where somone at the bar said they had this infallible system for predicting the name of the next US president (I can't remember any of the character's names). He said this system had accurately given him the names: 'Carter', 'Reagan', 'Bush'... The guy next to him said, 'Oh, Yeh?' - so what's the next president's name gonna be?' 'Yelnick McGuagua'. Toodle-pip, Nigel Stanislavski-McFaddyean Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 26, 1998 at 18:45:10 (EDT)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Nigel Subject: Off-topic. Got the job! Message: Dear Nigel, I am SO gulabile(sp)!!!! Glad to 'know' you are Nigel, you pip. Love, Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 24, 1998 at 17:16:47 (EDT)
From: eb Email: None To: Nigel Subject: Off-topic. Got the job! Message: Way to go, Nigel! I shall open a bottle of the bubbly in your honor tonight. Love and best wishes, eb Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 24, 1998 at 17:34:18 (EDT)
From: nigel Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: Running bear Subject: Montana premies watch out... Message: To you too, eb. I'm raising a glass as I type left-handed. Careful where you point that gun as you head for the hills... Yippee-I-O-Kayay!!! Hang tough, Quick-draw McGuagua Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jul 25, 1998 at 01:11:10 (EDT)
From: Gail Email: None To: Nigel Subject: Wow! Message: Congrats! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 23, 1998 at 04:49:06 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel Email: jmkahn@hol.fr To: Everyone Subject: Maharaji's dialectic Message: I'm having this email conversation with a friend about what m said and doesn't say anymore(?) I won't say who that person is, because I know he won't be shocked by the fact I'm bringing this issue again. My friend was telling me: >Yeah, I know, but many premies who come on the site >to defend him say that he does not say the same >thing. You have heard them say that now he is merely >a human meditation teacher. They act like so much has >changed. This is how he presents himself in the introductory and first stage aspirants videos. But in premies only videos, he'd say the same things, like that for him the second most important thing in k is darshan! He told it in Amaroo, in Taiwan, and many other places last year, I've HEARD it!! He also repeated that people who serve him shouldn't think at all. A good servant is a premie who doesn't think. He told in in the last Amaroo participation meeting, and in Long Beach part meeting. You should borrow these videos, and transcribe these!!!!! Plus plenty of other things of that type. Now WHY premies seem not to remember these is another question. I think it's the most challenging issues when you're a faithful premies, and you don't like to speak about it. I never did when I was a premie, I would never discuss these issues, and M himself says that these issues are not open for debate! He IS THE MASTER, and you are not a person to discuss what he says. I would also say, again, that if premies behave differently, is because they've been through these endless PR seminars that happened in every country during the past years. NOTHING has changed really, and Ms Ros Sutton made a good job with her seminars. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 23, 1998 at 05:34:04 (EDT)
From: Keith Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: Maharaji's dialectic Message: Of course Jean-Michel, Maharaji to my knowledge does not engage in a dialectic. Here is the Collins dictionary definition ; dialectic ; 1) the art or practice of assessing the truth of a theory or opinion BY DISCUSSION AND LOGICAL DISPUTATION. 2) Logical argumentation. Maharaji's idea of the above , especially (1), is extremely limited. It would seem that a SAVIOR needs not to enter into a dialectical interaction with the poor lost souls. Regards , Keith . Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 23, 1998 at 05:46:12 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Keith Subject: Other teacher's dialectic Message: It looks like some teachers don't hesitate and never try to avoid debates! It should be a sign good enough to assess what type of person The Master really is! 'Perfect'(ly).....authoritarian. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 23, 1998 at 06:18:25 (EDT)
From: Keith Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: Other teacher's dialectic Message: Yes, Jean-Michel, For instance, Krishnamurti seemed to really enjoy truly dialectical debates with all manner of people. I have some transcripts of dialectics between Krishnamurti and some twenty people at the same time. What is there to lose? If one was steadfast in ones thoughts and feelings there could be only mutual gain from an intelligent and passionate interchange. It is a superiority complex to feel way above everyone else. Keith Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 23, 1998 at 07:53:51 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Keith Subject: Other teacher's dialectic Message: Beside this major aspect, I assume that m is pretty uneducated ie all the gross stupid things he often says in his discourses, and maybe he has some difficulties with this. That wouldn't be a problem very likely if he was not so arrogant. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 23, 1998 at 10:04:42 (EDT)
From: Jerry Email: None To: Keith Subject: Other teacher's dialectic Message: If one was steadfast in ones thoughts and feelings there could be only mutual gain from an intelligent and passionate interchange. If I'm not mistaken, doesn't Maharaji come from a tradition of bhakti devotion which is a path which demands complete obedience and subservience from the devotee? Isn't it true that with bhakti devotion all reason and thought is abandoned in favor of humble devotion to the master? I have no problems with this so long as the master is forthcoming and straightforward that this is where he stands. Then you know where you stand with him. But the problem with Maharaji is he sends out mixed signals. One moment he's just as human as you and I and the next he's the living perfect master. This stand he takes on who he is depends entirely on who his audience is. If you're an aspirant just starting out, he's no more divine than you are. If you're a premie than he's the living perfect master. And if you're a premie in India, well then he is more divine than you are, much more divine. He's greater than God then. No, I prefer a master who's the same to all his disciples, whether aspirant or hopelessly devoted premie. It's dishonest to come across as anything else. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jul 23, 1998 at 21:54:31 (EDT)
From: Keith Email: None To: Jerry Subject: Other teacher's dialectic Message: Jerry, I agree that Maharaji sends out mixed messages. For instance ; He said once (a few years back) that heart and mind should at least be in a 50%-50% balance. He gesticulated with his hands to emphasise the point. I agree with him . But many other statements and his influence on those around him ( and on the premie mind-set in general ) suggest strongly that mind is to be concidered inferior to 'heart' . On one hand 'complimentariness' is being proposed. On the other hand a 'duality ' that compares heart to mind , and creates a sharp demarcation line between them. Maharaji has also spoken of the need for recipricosity in relationship....a relationship cannot be just one way traffic....but how many premies have a reciprical relationship with Maharaji. Are these examples of double standard ? Or of a basic confusion within Maharaji himself? Or what? Am I mistaken in my perceptions or in my thinking? Am I not seeing something? The problem is how can I have a reasoned dialectical debate with Maharaji when he refuses to entertain any such thing ? Does Bhakti really mean anti-intellect ? Is Bhakti the true path according to Maharaji ? One things for sure ; Maharaji's refusal to enter into a dialectical debate with me or anyone else (in public at least) has been one big contributor to my denouncing my premie status. In a way , I ex-communicated myself . Regards , Keith Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 24, 1998 at 01:07:21 (EDT)
From: Gail Email: None To: Keith Subject: He comes with all 64 powers Message: MJ doesn't need to engage in debate. When the master comes to save the world with all 64 powers, he can use his own judgment. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 24, 1998 at 09:49:15 (EDT)
From: Jerry Email: None To: Gail Subject: 64 powers? Message: When the master comes to save the world with all 64 powers, he can use his own judgment. Just what ARE the 64 powers? Did Maharaji ever list them? Did anybody ever list them? Or did Maharaji pick that number from thin air? Or did you pick that number from thin air? Now as I try to remember I vaguely remember him saying he's come with all seven (7) powers. So, if I'm right, let's not exaggerate, Gail. He's not THAT big. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 24, 1998 at 17:56:51 (EDT)
From: nigel Email: yelnick@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: Jerry Subject: 64 powers? Message: Just what ARE the 64 powers? Did Maharaji ever list them? Did anybody ever list them? Or did Maharaji pick that number from thin air? Jerry, what a good question. Does anyone know? Margie possesses 'all 64 yogic powers' as I recall. There are only about 9 categories of so-called paranormal ability that I'm aware of, so I'm rather intrigued as to what the remaining 55 might be. Maybe 'spiriting cash from devotees' bank accounts' is one of them. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 24, 1998 at 18:40:43 (EDT)
From: memory lane Email: None To: nigel Subject: 64 powers? yep. Message: I have the qoute somewhere. But from memory, it goes, MIKE DONNER asked m about the saying that m came with all 64. m said, forget the numbers, each perfect master comes with the power he needs and that krishna came with 4 powers, ram with 8, and that HE came with all the powers. The quote is on printed dlm stuff. That is not exact but it's darn close. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 24, 1998 at 23:07:54 (EDT)
From: PCG Email: None To: memory lane Subject: 64 powers Message: nitindo, I think Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 26, 1998 at 01:18:09 (EDT)
From: pranam Email: None To: PCG Subject: 64 powers Message: I had understod that god has unlimited powers why 64 when it comes to spiritual masters they should be teachers becose masters control you from the bigining if you see the term spiritual master you should avoid him.becouse I strongly believe god is the one and only master and that we should follow him by listtening to him with our heart and soul quiet our mind and follow the flow of its desissions right give some more input here please Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 26, 1998 at 01:34:40 (EDT)
From: PCG Email: None To: pranam Subject: 64 powers Message: Yeah, sounds right and if you have the heart to hear him... that just real i dunno ...sweet the closest I got to confiming 'god' was when I was child standing in field 'showing off to my little'er' bother and sister. In a thunder storm 'strike me dead if you exist' it was lightning as I recall, close. I duly impressed my bro and sis and I went away saying 'you don't exist' but I probably meant the opposite. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 26, 1998 at 08:54:01 (EDT)
From: Jerry Email: None To: pranam Subject: 64 powers Message: if you see the term spiritual master you should avoid him.becouse I strongly believe god is the one and only master. I agree! Who needs a middle man, hmm? In my own experience, what I know about God is what He's revealed to me Himself. I don't know if it works that way for everybody but it works that way for me. People can confuse you, though. They try to convince you that their way is the only way. I suspect these people are only trying to convince themselves. Be on your guard, Pranam. There's a lot of charlatans out there. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jul 26, 1998 at 13:32:02 (EDT)
From: PCG Email: None To: pranam Subject: 64 powers Message: You sound like me quite a few years back, desparate, a truth addict as you say on your site. I am touched by search for your premie dad, and I see you as if you were my daughter. At one time I would have said to go listen to Maharaji, because frankly I was never good talking about it, and it was much more comfortable than a sticky situation were anything I said might be an influance. There a lot of ways to go to satisfy your hunger.....a thought here.... maybe I'm wrong but when your hunger gets satisfied maybe thats a sign to go somewhere else, or least to take a close look at where your at. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 24, 1998 at 09:25:14 (EDT)
From: Jerry Email: None To: Keith Subject: Maharaji's confusion Message: ...Are these examples of double standard ? Or of a basic confusion within Maharaji himself? That's a very interesting observation, Keith. When I was looking for something from Maharaji, when I had faith in him, I automatically assumed that he knew what he was talking about even if I didn't. Now I'm not so sure. Maybe he doesn't know what the hell he's talking about but gets away with it because, after all, he IS greater than God. I'm being fascetious, I hope you realize. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jul 24, 1998 at 02:21:18 (EDT)
From: dropping the bb's Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: Maharaji's dialectic Message: And when that half-aspirants go to the knowledge selection, they are excluded unless rawat is thier religion. I'll try to get a couple video's. To keep from alerting some that I am now in contact with, I'm gonna stop with the bb and switch to something else. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |