Ex-Premie.Org

Forum III Archive # 22

From: Aug 14, 1998

To: Aug 31, 1998

Page: 1 Of: 5


Nigel -:- Premie Liars! -:- Tues, Aug 25, 1998 at 22:21:18 (EDT)
__x -:- Premie Liars! -:- Wed, Aug 26, 1998 at 03:19:43 (EDT)
__Jean-Michel -:- Me ex-Liar -:- Wed, Aug 26, 1998 at 06:31:39 (EDT)
____Judith -:- Me ex-Liar -:- Wed, Aug 26, 1998 at 08:51:54 (EDT)
______Jean-Michel -:- Me ex-Liar -:- Wed, Aug 26, 1998 at 09:27:34 (EDT)
________Selene -:- Me ex-Liar -:- Wed, Aug 26, 1998 at 14:01:14 (EDT)
__________Jean-Michel -:- Me ex-Liar -:- Wed, Aug 26, 1998 at 15:34:30 (EDT)
__Scott T. -:- Speak for yourself. -:- Wed, Aug 26, 1998 at 18:54:11 (EDT)
____Mike -:- Ah..ah..ah -:- Wed, Aug 26, 1998 at 19:12:50 (EDT)
______Scott T. -:- BTW, at the Quality Pie Shop -:- Wed, Aug 26, 1998 at 19:22:05 (EDT)
________Mike -:- BTW, at the Quality Pie Shop -:- Wed, Aug 26, 1998 at 19:31:04 (EDT)
__________Scott T. -:- BTW, at the Quality Pie Shop -:- Wed, Aug 26, 1998 at 19:58:44 (EDT)
____________Mike -:- BTW, at the Quality Pie Shop -:- Thurs, Aug 27, 1998 at 11:24:12 (EDT)
____Nigel -:- Two kinds of lie -:- Thurs, Aug 27, 1998 at 02:43:44 (EDT)
______Mike -:- Two kinds of lie -:- Thurs, Aug 27, 1998 at 12:16:59 (EDT)
________eb -:- Transference and Lying -:- Fri, Aug 28, 1998 at 01:32:16 (EDT)
______Jim -:- Two kinds of lie -:- Thurs, Aug 27, 1998 at 17:58:43 (EDT)
________Nigel -:- Losing my religion... -:- Thurs, Aug 27, 1998 at 21:09:36 (EDT)
__________Jerry -:- Losing my religion... -:- Fri, Aug 28, 1998 at 10:06:15 (EDT)
____________JW -:- Ophelia -- YES -:- Fri, Aug 28, 1998 at 14:52:31 (EDT)
__________VP -:- Losing my religion... -:- Fri, Aug 28, 1998 at 14:18:29 (EDT)
____________Nigel -:- Shiny happy people -:- Sat, Aug 29, 1998 at 19:59:47 (EDT)
______________VP -:- Shiny happy people -:- Mon, Aug 31, 1998 at 14:40:22 (EDT)
__Jerry -:- Premie Liars! -:- Fri, Aug 28, 1998 at 09:24:37 (EDT)
____Jerry -:- Major error -:- Fri, Aug 28, 1998 at 16:09:30 (EDT)

Cosmon -:- Hello -:- Tues, Aug 25, 1998 at 22:04:13 (EDT)
__Gail -:- Why I am angry. -:- Tues, Aug 25, 1998 at 22:21:29 (EDT)
____Selene -:- Why I am angry. -:- Tues, Aug 25, 1998 at 22:51:51 (EDT)
__Jim -:- Angry? Who's angry? -:- Tues, Aug 25, 1998 at 23:04:58 (EDT)
____Cosmon -:- Anger ! -:- Tues, Aug 25, 1998 at 23:33:22 (EDT)
______VP -:- Anger ! -:- Tues, Aug 25, 1998 at 23:43:11 (EDT)
________Cosmon -:- Anger ! -:- Wed, Aug 26, 1998 at 01:16:48 (EDT)
__________VP -:- An answer for Cosmon -:- Wed, Aug 26, 1998 at 18:31:07 (EDT)
______Jean-Michel -:- Anger ! -:- Wed, Aug 26, 1998 at 04:13:23 (EDT)
______Jean-Michel -:- M is the savior! -:- Wed, Aug 26, 1998 at 04:19:46 (EDT)
________Web Watcher -:- Pro Maharaji web site -:- Wed, Aug 26, 1998 at 06:56:40 (EDT)
______JW -:- Anger ! -:- Wed, Aug 26, 1998 at 15:24:44 (EDT)
________Mike -:- Well Said.. -:- Wed, Aug 26, 1998 at 15:42:50 (EDT)
__________JW -:- Well Said.. -:- Wed, Aug 26, 1998 at 16:10:26 (EDT)
____________Mike -:- Heck... -:- Wed, Aug 26, 1998 at 17:41:28 (EDT)
________Cosmon -:- Anger ! -:- Wed, Aug 26, 1998 at 20:40:52 (EDT)

Selene -:- another forum -:- Tues, Aug 25, 1998 at 18:20:24 (EDT)
__eb -:- another forum -:- Tues, Aug 25, 1998 at 19:13:49 (EDT)
____Selene -:- another forum -:- Tues, Aug 25, 1998 at 19:27:10 (EDT)
__Scott T. -:- Landmark Forum? -:- Tues, Aug 25, 1998 at 21:45:23 (EDT)
____Bobby -:- Landmark Forum? -:- Tues, Aug 25, 1998 at 21:58:45 (EDT)
______Selene -:- Landmark Forum? -:- Tues, Aug 25, 1998 at 22:34:20 (EDT)
________VP -:- Do you remember... -:- Tues, Aug 25, 1998 at 23:31:11 (EDT)
__________Jerry -:- Do you remember... -:- Wed, Aug 26, 1998 at 00:12:49 (EDT)
____________eb -:- Do you remember... -:- Wed, Aug 26, 1998 at 00:56:38 (EDT)
______________Jerry -:- Do you remember... -:- Wed, Aug 26, 1998 at 01:23:25 (EDT)
________________eb -:- Yes!!!!! -:- Wed, Aug 26, 1998 at 02:02:51 (EDT)
__________________Selene -:- Yes!!!!! -:- Wed, Aug 26, 1998 at 11:06:41 (EDT)
____________________eb -:- Thanks, Selene -:- Wed, Aug 26, 1998 at 12:56:03 (EDT)
______________________Selene -:- Thanks, Selene -:- Wed, Aug 26, 1998 at 14:04:02 (EDT)
__________________VP -:- Points from me, too, eb -:- Wed, Aug 26, 1998 at 18:43:48 (EDT)
________Scott T. -:- Landmark Forum? -:- Wed, Aug 26, 1998 at 18:16:45 (EDT)
__________eb -:- Drug induced sexual orgies? -:- Wed, Aug 26, 1998 at 23:40:36 (EDT)
____________eb -:- Oops, I forgot, -:- Wed, Aug 26, 1998 at 23:43:40 (EDT)
______________Scott T. -:- Oops, I forgot, -:- Wed, Aug 26, 1998 at 23:53:51 (EDT)
____________Scott T. -:- Other way 'round -:- Wed, Aug 26, 1998 at 23:50:13 (EDT)
______________Selene -:- Other way 'round -:- Thurs, Aug 27, 1998 at 17:03:50 (EDT)
________________eb -:- Private Seminars -:- Thurs, Aug 27, 1998 at 19:18:40 (EDT)
__________________Selene -:- Private Seminars -:- Thurs, Aug 27, 1998 at 22:07:19 (EDT)
____________________eb -:- Private Seminars -:- Fri, Aug 28, 1998 at 01:41:48 (EDT)
______________________Selene -:- Private Seminars -:- Fri, Aug 28, 1998 at 14:41:44 (EDT)

Jean-Michel -:- Private collection -:- Tues, Aug 25, 1998 at 17:14:11 (EDT)
__JW -:- Private collection -:- Tues, Aug 25, 1998 at 17:47:06 (EDT)
____Jim -:- He looks like a pig -:- Tues, Aug 25, 1998 at 18:06:24 (EDT)
____VP -:- It's Carmen Miranda! -:- Tues, Aug 25, 1998 at 20:40:39 (EDT)
______Selene -:- It's Carmen Miranda! -:- Tues, Aug 25, 1998 at 22:39:16 (EDT)
______Jerry -:- Mine too! -:- Tues, Aug 25, 1998 at 22:47:35 (EDT)
______Mike -:- Don't insult her... -:- Wed, Aug 26, 1998 at 12:41:35 (EDT)
______JW -:- It's Carmen Miranda! -:- Fri, Aug 28, 1998 at 14:49:22 (EDT)
________VP -:- It's Carmen Miranda! -:- Sat, Aug 29, 1998 at 16:08:30 (EDT)
__Mike -:- Gaaa, Yuck! -:- Tues, Aug 25, 1998 at 19:20:56 (EDT)
__Nigel -:- God, I feel ill... -:- Tues, Aug 25, 1998 at 23:11:46 (EDT)
____Mike -:- God, I feel ill... -:- Wed, Aug 26, 1998 at 10:57:39 (EDT)
__Mickey the Pharisee -:- Private collection -:- Tues, Aug 25, 1998 at 23:14:18 (EDT)
____Mike -:- Private collection -:- Wed, Aug 26, 1998 at 11:24:28 (EDT)
__VP -:- Evil looking? -:- Wed, Aug 26, 1998 at 00:08:01 (EDT)
____Jerry -:- Evil looking? -:- Wed, Aug 26, 1998 at 01:12:07 (EDT)
______Sir David -:- I was captivated by the child -:- Wed, Aug 26, 1998 at 07:13:35 (EDT)
________Mike -:- I was captivated by the child -:- Wed, Aug 26, 1998 at 12:53:50 (EDT)
________VP -:- I was creeped-out by the child -:- Wed, Aug 26, 1998 at 18:55:44 (EDT)
____Becky -:- Evil looking? -:- Thurs, Aug 27, 1998 at 09:01:23 (EDT)
______VP -:- Psychic or Sense? -:- Thurs, Aug 27, 1998 at 13:02:10 (EDT)
________Jerry -:- Psychic or Sense? -:- Thurs, Aug 27, 1998 at 13:25:22 (EDT)
__________Becky -:- Survival Sense -:- Thurs, Aug 27, 1998 at 13:38:34 (EDT)
________Mike -:- Psychic Flames -:- Thurs, Aug 27, 1998 at 14:14:35 (EDT)
__________VP -:- Psychic Flames -:- Thurs, Aug 27, 1998 at 17:59:08 (EDT)
__eb -:- Private collection -:- Wed, Aug 26, 1998 at 02:32:52 (EDT)
__Judith -:- Private collection -:- Wed, Aug 26, 1998 at 02:51:33 (EDT)
____Gail -:- Hi there -:- Wed, Aug 26, 1998 at 21:56:27 (EDT)
______Judith -:- Hi there -:- Thurs, Aug 27, 1998 at 05:37:47 (EDT)
____VP -:- Hey Jude -:- Wed, Aug 26, 1998 at 22:02:08 (EDT)
______Judith -:- Hey Jude -:- Thurs, Aug 27, 1998 at 05:50:44 (EDT)
__Mike -:- Private collection II -:- Wed, Aug 26, 1998 at 11:45:38 (EDT)
____Mike -:- In addition: -:- Wed, Aug 26, 1998 at 11:46:56 (EDT)
____Jean-Michel -:- Private collection II -:- Wed, Aug 26, 1998 at 11:58:01 (EDT)
__TD -:- Ooooooh, tack-o-rama.... -:- Wed, Aug 26, 1998 at 18:28:01 (EDT)
__g's mom -:- I want more pics -:- Wed, Aug 26, 1998 at 22:08:23 (EDT)
____Mike -:- I want more pics -:- Thurs, Aug 27, 1998 at 11:16:26 (EDT)
____Mike -:- I want more pics -:- Thurs, Aug 27, 1998 at 11:19:51 (EDT)
______Jean-Michel -:- More pics: Thanks, BUT! -:- Thurs, Aug 27, 1998 at 12:47:45 (EDT)
________VP -:- More pics: Thanks, BUT! -:- Thurs, Aug 27, 1998 at 13:08:07 (EDT)
__________Jean-Michel -:- More pics: Thanks, BUT! -:- Thurs, Aug 27, 1998 at 17:02:30 (EDT)
____________VP -:- More pics: Thanks, BUT! -:- Thurs, Aug 27, 1998 at 18:05:24 (EDT)
________Mike -:- More pics: Thanks, BUT! -:- Thurs, Aug 27, 1998 at 13:40:32 (EDT)
__________Jean-Michel -:- More pics: Thanks, BUT! -:- Thurs, Aug 27, 1998 at 16:57:57 (EDT)
____________Mike -:- The Book -:- Thurs, Aug 27, 1998 at 18:11:47 (EDT)
__Becky -:- A rival for Princess Di -:- Thurs, Aug 27, 1998 at 08:46:58 (EDT)

Sir David -:- Easy modified light online -:- Tues, Aug 25, 1998 at 11:45:02 (EDT)

RT -:- Readmail.com -:- Mon, Aug 24, 1998 at 21:17:34 (EDT)

Jim -:- Bizarre Premie Hypocrisy -:- Mon, Aug 24, 1998 at 21:11:07 (EDT)
__Selene -:- Bizarre Premie Hypocrisy -:- Mon, Aug 24, 1998 at 21:19:32 (EDT)
____Selena -:- cults of the decades -:- Mon, Aug 24, 1998 at 21:27:10 (EDT)
__Jim -:- BPH (cont'd) -:- Mon, Aug 24, 1998 at 21:36:34 (EDT)
____RT -:- JAVA Jive -:- Tues, Aug 25, 1998 at 12:02:56 (EDT)
______Mike -:- JAVA Jive -:- Tues, Aug 25, 1998 at 13:17:33 (EDT)
________Jim -:- JAVA Jive -:- Tues, Aug 25, 1998 at 14:25:31 (EDT)
__________Mike -:- Another possibility -:- Tues, Aug 25, 1998 at 15:22:17 (EDT)
____________Jerry -:- Another possibility -:- Tues, Aug 25, 1998 at 17:21:34 (EDT)
____________Jim -:- Another possibility -:- Tues, Aug 25, 1998 at 17:55:23 (EDT)
______________Mike -:- I'll call this weekend -:- Wed, Aug 26, 1998 at 11:00:35 (EDT)
________________Jim -:- I'll call this weekend -:- Thurs, Aug 27, 1998 at 11:31:55 (EDT)
__Passing thru -:- Hypocrisy indeed! -:- Tues, Aug 25, 1998 at 06:57:31 (EDT)
____Jean-Michel -:- Hypocrisy indeed! -:- Tues, Aug 25, 1998 at 10:30:37 (EDT)
____Mike -:- Hypocrisy indeed! -:- Tues, Aug 25, 1998 at 13:23:19 (EDT)
______Mike -:- Reliability -:- Tues, Aug 25, 1998 at 15:30:27 (EDT)
____Jim -:- You miss my point -:- Tues, Aug 25, 1998 at 14:37:35 (EDT)
______hamzen -:- You miss my point -:- Tues, Aug 25, 1998 at 16:48:03 (EDT)
______Paqssing thru -:- You've missed everything -:- Tues, Aug 25, 1998 at 21:49:50 (EDT)
________Jim -:- You've missed everything -:- Tues, Aug 25, 1998 at 22:36:10 (EDT)
________Mike -:- You've missed everything -:- Wed, Aug 26, 1998 at 11:11:46 (EDT)
________Nigel -:- Lets call it paqs... -:- Thurs, Aug 27, 1998 at 22:58:26 (EDT)

Jim -:- Ban Mike! -:- Mon, Aug 24, 1998 at 16:58:20 (EDT)
__Mike -:- Ban Mike! -:- Mon, Aug 24, 1998 at 18:39:32 (EDT)
____Jim -:- That's not enough!! -:- Mon, Aug 24, 1998 at 19:03:32 (EDT)
______Mike -:- Is this? -:- Mon, Aug 24, 1998 at 19:09:43 (EDT)
________Jim -:- Yes... -:- Mon, Aug 24, 1998 at 19:55:30 (EDT)

Becky -:- Jim, you're blind -:- Mon, Aug 24, 1998 at 08:50:40 (EDT)
__Jim -:- Jim, you're blind -:- Mon, Aug 24, 1998 at 16:11:41 (EDT)
____Becky -:- There's no easy answer for you -:- Tues, Aug 25, 1998 at 09:25:56 (EDT)
______Sir David -:- There's no easy answer for you -:- Tues, Aug 25, 1998 at 10:15:00 (EDT)
________Jim -:- There's no easy answer for you -:- Tues, Aug 25, 1998 at 11:58:29 (EDT)
______Jim -:- Bullshit, Becky! -:- Tues, Aug 25, 1998 at 12:04:37 (EDT)
________Cosmon -:- Islam -:- Tues, Aug 25, 1998 at 21:06:48 (EDT)
________Becky -:- Bullshit, Jim -:- Wed, Aug 26, 1998 at 08:37:54 (EDT)
__________Jim -:- Hey, best of luck -:- Wed, Aug 26, 1998 at 11:18:57 (EDT)
____________Becky -:- Antiques and poetry -:- Thurs, Aug 27, 1998 at 08:37:53 (EDT)
______________Becky -:- Jim - didn't answer my Q -:- Thurs, Aug 27, 1998 at 13:40:37 (EDT)
________________Jim -:- Who's kidding whom? -:- Thurs, Aug 27, 1998 at 16:54:25 (EDT)
__________JW -:- Bullshit, Jim -:- Thurs, Aug 27, 1998 at 16:01:02 (EDT)

hamzen -:- gm/days working -:- Sun, Aug 23, 1998 at 19:11:52 (EDT)
__jethro -:- gm/days working -:- Sun, Aug 23, 1998 at 19:32:00 (EDT)
__VP -:- hazem, it's his job -:- Sun, Aug 23, 1998 at 19:52:52 (EDT)
__John -:- gm/days working -:- Mon, Aug 24, 1998 at 10:56:33 (EDT)
____hamzen -:- gm/days working -:- Mon, Aug 24, 1998 at 17:52:31 (EDT)
______John -:- gm/days working -:- Tues, Aug 25, 1998 at 08:49:53 (EDT)
________hamzen -:- gm/days working -:- Tues, Aug 25, 1998 at 19:26:20 (EDT)
__Laura -:- gm/days working -:- Mon, Aug 24, 1998 at 20:15:44 (EDT)
__Mike -:- gm/days working -:- Tues, Aug 25, 1998 at 16:43:51 (EDT)
__JW -:- gm/days working -:- Tues, Aug 25, 1998 at 19:33:34 (EDT)

Date: Tues, Aug 25, 1998 at 22:21:18 (EDT)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Everyone
Subject: Premie Liars!
Message:
Hi friends,

I have been discussing all sorts of controversial issues in the area of what is known as 'hypnosis' with my new guru (a mere mortal, unfortunately, or maybe not), and have heard about all sorts of evidence that something I have suspected for a long time is completely true. Namely, that most seemimgly honest people tell lies a lot more than they would ever publicly acknowledge.

Average person comes out of hypnotic trance, unable to remember a single thing about it until someone else cues them with the key words 'Elvis Presley', after which they remember every detail of the hypnotic experience? Try it. It works. But the amnesia is faked. The participants are just complying (and bloody lying) about the whole thing. The 'best' hypnotic subjects are usually pretty good at channelling, too. There are various tried and tested experimental methods that can easily expose the bullshit merchants. But some of them, having told the first lie, will never thereafter own up.

The details are irrelevant, here, but this kind of lying phenomenon is, I think, universal, and very handy to fakirs like Goofus Bhaji who need some lying believers to pass on his message and who might at least be able to string a coherent sentence together on his behalf*. I know this since I was that lying believer . Brilliant white light? - Yeah, sure, well actually I've never seen it but you can bet your bottom nine pound note that I told everybody else about it. It was the done thing, wasn't it? 'Connecting with that source within?' What the fuck was that about? - but never mind, I told my friends and family about it, all the same. Because it was real (or so I'd heard...)

*Side issue: I used to forgive GB his poor English. Perfection has nothing to do with grammatical rules and the poor kid was, after all, just a teenager, surely? But he talks just the same after 25 years in the west, for Christ's sake! Yes, I did read Mr Ex's Long Beach transcript, and even after the editing, the Lord of the Universe still cannot sustain a single coherent thought for the length of one sentence. In real life you might, unkindly, call such people 'thick', or worse. The funny language used to be cute, and kind of left us straining our brains to grasp the cosmic subtleties behind it all, and it all added to the sense of holy quest. And there was also the cosy pat-yourself-on-the-back sensation of believing you alone had worked out what the slimy toad was on about. But now...?

There is definitely such thing as the 'socially acceptable lie'. No one blames Clinton for lying since they would do exactly the same if they'd been having an affair, which is why everybody is yawning. It's just part of the package - the whole social setting. When people sit around sharing ghost stories or great acid trips they once had the same process kicks in: if its not immediately falsifiable, people will just say whatever feels right at the time. They will exaggerate, bullshit, and generally join in . It's hardly contempt of court. And cults are about joining in, above all else.

Sharing satsang was totally about joining in and bullshitting.

Even though GB banned satsang back in '81, it is still the 'honest' conviction of the truly believing premie that does his work for him. Usually this conviction will be shared - like an intimate confidence - outside of the context of the video event, or maybe during the lift home when everybody's still buzzing with the possibility that something might just have happened in there.

As for the video itself? - forget it. Even when I loved Maharaj Ji (or so I used to finally confess, once everybody else had...), I used to endure his videos immensely. Our community only rented them once a week and had proper satsang every other night. The Lord's rambling, unfocussed addresses were always boring, too long, and never actually said anything. I realised as much at the time and used to make my excuses on Friday nights. Instead, what must have kept me going from my earliest aspirant days right through to the end was my faith in the reported experiences of the other premies. I saw them in the chair, slowing down, finding that place inside, smiling just so, breathing audibly for forty-five seconds before announcing 'It's so incredible...', placing fingertips to forehead as they did half-pranam sideways toward the altar in gesture of person drowning in downpour of Holy name, and then delivering the spontaneous speech they'd been planning all day. And before long I could do it as well as the rest of them.

And they were all bullshitters, just like me. (At the time I thought it was just me.)
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Date: Wed, Aug 26, 1998 at 03:19:43 (EDT)
From: x
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Premie Liars!
Message:
I asked my mom about why the premies abandoned satsang, and didnt she feel sad to lose her self expression and the communal feelings of togtherness she and the premies shared. She replied that, no it was good to get rid of satsang, because it was confusing everybody,like someone might say I felt such and such, or I saw blue light, or whatever and then someone else would be like, hey, thats not what I saw, I must be lame, I'm not doing it right' I'm a failure, etc.
She gave me an example of one time when she gave a truly heartfelt satsang about how the music was very loud and the word was explosive and it was all so intense, blah blah, and she felt the others were all being moved by her great satsang. Anyway up comes some party pooper giving a satsang about how someone earlier had gone on and on about how intense and explosive, etc. knowledge was, but that actually knowledge was really quiet and peaceful and about going within and transcending the mind, blah blah blah. So needless to say my mom felt burned(as she should) by some hostile elitist premie trying to one up her.
I was just a kid at those satsangs, but I remember the unwritten stratfication among the premies. They had their own pecking order of sorts, From popular well liked alpha premies down to lowly, barely tolerated, bongo premies. There were the attractive witty guitar playing womanizers and their counterparts the sexy pretty hippie chicks and there were the bitter super devoted celibate serious types too. All this adds up to major head games, so frustrating when at the same time youre busy proving how mindless and emotionless(detached)you can be.
When sasang was abandoned I think some people,the smooth talking creative speakers, were bummed, on the other hand, I think a lot of less witty boring speakers were relieved to give it up.
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Date: Wed, Aug 26, 1998 at 06:31:39 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Me ex-Liar
Message:
My question still is: why did I indulge in such a system?

Was I really trying to protect my relationship with someone I loved and about whom I unconsciously knew there was a lot unacceptable (I don't say 'wrong').

Is that the type of awful love relationship you'd have with someone who is not socially acceptable, or someone who's hurting you and you still love? Is love stronger than the pain the person you love is inflicting you?
This is really a very armful tendancy some people (like me) obviously have.
Can we really heal that deep disease ?
I am still wondering.
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Date: Wed, Aug 26, 1998 at 08:51:54 (EDT)
From: Judith
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Me ex-Liar
Message:
Yes why do we love the wrong people? Is it the fault of love, of ourselves, of them? What does it say about us, who and what we love? What's the problem? Good question, Jean-Michel.
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Date: Wed, Aug 26, 1998 at 09:27:34 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Judith
Subject: Me ex-Liar
Message:
So next time you meet someone you like, and you think you could be in love with that person, try to step back (before it's too late) and ask yourself:

'What's so fantastic about that one?'
and try to find what he/she shares with some others you did love.
You might discover very soon a lot of interesting stuff!

And in another case, with someone you like but you 'know' it's never going to work, ask yourself why! Is he/she not missing that part that's necessary to make it hell?

That doesn't solve your problem, but at least you might gain some common sense, and become a bit careful!

Your brother,

Jean-Michel
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Date: Wed, Aug 26, 1998 at 14:01:14 (EDT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Me ex-Liar
Message:
And in another case, with someone you like but you 'know' it's never going to work, ask yourself why! Is he/she not missing that part that's necessary to make it hell?

Do you really think a lot of people are like this Jean-Michel? It's disturbing and yet helpful to read this, I have done the destructive relationship thing over and over. Now I am in a more peaceful stable relationship, missing that 'part that makes it hell' and I have to admit a part of me misses the excitement and the drama, but I have no desire to go back there.
But, I don't think that's why i got into M. I really believed he was more than a human and could take me someplace. I never felt 'love' for him. I couldn't even stand having his pictures around. It was more the excitement of believing it was some express way spiritual path, and I liked the premies, or so I had convinced myself.
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Date: Wed, Aug 26, 1998 at 15:34:30 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Me ex-Liar
Message:
That's my state of mind these days.
maybe I'm a bit too ironic with myself.

I was not believing m was God: I was sure, I had such a deep experience of the divine, it was 'MY experience' - I don't know if you had that kind of feeling.
Now I understand it's just a love experience you can have in various situations, and I'm very careful.
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Date: Wed, Aug 26, 1998 at 18:54:11 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Speak for yourself.
Message:
Nigel:

(At the time I thought it was just me.)

I gotta say here, just in the interest of clarity, that I didn't... lie I mean. The only experience I ever had was light, white and about every other color. The only music I ever heard, afte the K session, was a squeeking sound reminiscent of a rusty D-6 tractor. In fact, the damage the tractor did to my hearing on the farm is probably where the sound came from. I never consciously smiled in public, not unless someone was willing to write a check. The only videos I liked and watched were the ones by Sandoz, with all the special effects, and those eventually got tiresome. Basically, the way I felt about attending obligatory programs was the way I felt about Sunday school as a kid. I frequently took the money meant for the collection plate and snuck out to buy a 'phosphate.' Now, if that's not honest I don't know what is!

-Scott
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Date: Wed, Aug 26, 1998 at 19:12:50 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Ah..ah..ah
Message:
Scott: Now you're fibbing. We snuck out to QP..... he he he
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Date: Wed, Aug 26, 1998 at 19:22:05 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: BTW, at the Quality Pie Shop
Message:
Mike:

I was just about to state that you could verify my story... about sneaking out to have coffee at the Quality Pie Shop. And Carol can testify as to what bad premies we both were. I admit that I DID fake devotion once, while you hid behind the wall. God, I'm glad I finally got that off my chest!

-Scott
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Date: Wed, Aug 26, 1998 at 19:31:04 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: BTW, at the Quality Pie Shop
Message:
Scott: he he he he...gufaw...cough hack... I think I mentioned the 'lila' in his front yard to someone in a post. Remember when you kicked Rita(?)....well you know the rest.... See what a little armchair psychology can do for the soul? Now, let's test your memory again... Remember when we went speeding up PCH, at about 100,000,000mph chasing that little putz in his brand new black mercedes?
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Date: Wed, Aug 26, 1998 at 19:58:44 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: BTW, at the Quality Pie Shop
Message:
Mike:

Remember when we went speeding up PCH, at about 100,000,000mph chasing that little putz in his brand new black mercedes?

No way! I WAS NOT DEVOTED, DAMMIT! I recall running one or two red lights as well. Must have been a death wish of some kind.

-Scott
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Date: Thurs, Aug 27, 1998 at 11:24:12 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: BTW, at the Quality Pie Shop
Message:
OHHHHH YES, Scott, we did run a couple....he he he. Do you also remember doing pranam on the steering wheel while we were screaming around those curves??? HA...so much for your claim to non-devotion...! ...snicker...snicker ;-)
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Date: Thurs, Aug 27, 1998 at 02:43:44 (EDT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Two kinds of lie
Message:
Hi Scott,

I should have maybe clarifified there were two types of lie told by myself and, I believe, most other premies. The first is the lie for outsiders: 'There is is this light inside you.... river of nectar... experience of bliss, etc.' They ask if you've had all these experiences and you say 'yes, absolutely' (mostly out of a sense of duty that you shouldn't let the side down). I must have brought about seven or eight people along to their first satsang on the strength of these lies, and at least half hung around to receive knowledge.

The other lie - for the premies - is more of a pose than an outright lie: the way that in satsang you will mask whatever doubts or inner turmoil you are feeling and adopt the double-glazed premie facia, and maybe say things like: 'I feel such a strong connection to Maharaj Ji inside, and it's just so beautiful when you're feeling anything but beautiful. 'cause if you tell the truth when you're feeling lousy it makes you look like you can't have being putting enough effort in, and the other premies will think badly of you.

Surely you must have engaged in this latter activity, Scott, maybe once or twice...? It would be an unusual premie who didn't.
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Date: Thurs, Aug 27, 1998 at 12:16:59 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Two kinds of lie
Message:
Nigel: I particularly agree with your second supposition.

- I don't know any premie that didn't 'stretch' the truth concerning how they were feeling when they gave satsang. It was kind of funny when you consider the fact that we LIVED with each other and we would know when the satsang-giver had a bad day. He/she would then get up, sit in the chair (floor, whatever) and tell everyone what a beautiful experience they had that same day. Deluding each other, we were, and deluding the aspirants, too.

- Depending upon the timeframe you are talking about, some of the early premies had practiced other disciplines and/or taken psychedelic drugs and experienced some pretty spectacular stuff. Once these people found out about M (and bought into the program), I think they kind of performed a 'transference' and assumed that M was providing that experience and then told people that they had 'seen light,' etc. So, in that regard, I think that these people weren't lying outright. They were just as deluded as the people they were talking to (IMHO).
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Date: Fri, Aug 28, 1998 at 01:32:16 (EDT)
From: eb
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Transference and Lying
Message:
Dear Mike, You wrote:

Depending upon the timeframe you are talking about, some of the early premies had practiced other disciplines and/or taken psychedelic drugs and experienced some pretty spectacular stuff. Once these people found out about M (and bought into the program), I think they kind of performed a 'transference' and assumed that M was providing that experience and then told people that they had 'seen light,' etc.

This describes my experience, only my husband and I continued to do skedelics after receiving knowledge. We had some absolutely outrageous satsangs together. In fact, we got to the point where we'd be seeing light and hearing music w/o drugs. Then again, I stopped getting off on knowledge as much when I stopped taking drugs which coincidentally occurred around the time I left my husband. Hmmmm. I must go ponder this.

eb
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Date: Thurs, Aug 27, 1998 at 17:58:43 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Two kinds of lie
Message:
Hi Nige,

You know Rick and I argued about this at length before. I said that, to the extent that I didn't believe my own mind but did believe Maharaji's, I wasn't a liar. But this becomes a semantic quagmire pretty fast. I guess one way we did lie pretty easily about the experience was in speaking about the 'experience' (yeck!!) in a third-person, supposedly objective voice that allowed us to make all sorts of claims without specifically crossing the line into saying that we, ourselves, had had those experiences.

Thus, we might not have said 'I've seen light greather than 10,000 maniacs' but instead 'There's a light in you....'

Small difference? I hoep not. I've staked my entire reputation as a premie on it. :)
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Date: Thurs, Aug 27, 1998 at 21:09:36 (EDT)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Jim
Subject: Losing my religion...
Message:
Good point, Jim, and I recognise what you're saying absolutely.

I quite liked 1000 Maniacs. Brighter than a thousand gurus, at least. Didn't she - the singer - used to do the naughties with him out of REM? (- just an off-topic sort of query that I'm not even remotely interested in the answer to)

BTW: You emailed me about Rose and Pinker. I'll get back soon. It's been a busy week.
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Date: Fri, Aug 28, 1998 at 10:06:15 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Losing my religion...
Message:
Natalie Merchant. Check out her Ophelia album. Exceptional.
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Date: Fri, Aug 28, 1998 at 14:52:31 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Ophelia -- YES
Message:
Jerry, you are so right! After a couple of mediocre albums, Ophelia is terrific!
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Date: Fri, Aug 28, 1998 at 14:18:29 (EDT)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Losing my religion...
Message:
Nigel,

If you are talking about Michael Stipe (lead singer for REM), the word is that he doesn't do the naughties with girls...this from his sister.

Cheers!
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Date: Sat, Aug 29, 1998 at 19:59:47 (EDT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: Shiny happy people
Message:
I heard that too, Veeps,

There are three possibilities here (a) Someone's been telling fibs (though probably not Michael Stipes' sister), (b) MS has wavering convictions, or (c) Natalie Merchant is a man.
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Date: Mon, Aug 31, 1998 at 14:40:22 (EDT)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Shiny happy people
Message:
More name dropping, but what the hell...Michael and I were both guests at a wedding once and were talking right as it was time to 'fling the garter' to the eligible bachelors. (You know, the one who catches it next gets married.) Michael said he did not have to go forward to participate in this ceremony as he was 'not eligible.' People (his sister and her friends) were being kind of pushy about getting him to participate, and he started to get angry.

Of course, he just may not like wedding traditions...
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Date: Fri, Aug 28, 1998 at 09:24:37 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Premie Liars!
Message:
I never once gave satsang. I never had anything to say as a realized soul, so I didn't. Wasn't that what it was all about, realizing Knowledge? Well, I never did, so I kept my mouth shut. I'm grateful to the premies who are coming forward on this forum and admitting that it was all bullshit. The truth, finally. I remember when satsang ceased altogether in the late 80s and it became strictly a video affair where only M spoke about K. In a way, I was grateful. I figured, who better to speak about it than the master? Now we have the technology, now it can be done. I remember a friend I had been bringing to satsang at the time voicing the same sentiments. He felt that all the premies giving satsang looked like they were stoned on Maharaji, not enlightened at all. But he did enjoy listening to M. I suspect that a lot of people feel that way. How else could M continue to flourish? The interesting thing though, is that I think that M is bullshitting just the same as the premies used to, just the same as his father probably did before him, just the way a priest does on Sunday, or a rabbi in synagogue. It makes you wonder, doesn't it? Bullshit begets bullshit.
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Date: Fri, Aug 28, 1998 at 16:09:30 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Major error
Message:
In my previous post I mentioned that I was grateful to all the premies who came forward admitting that their satsang was bullshit. I meant ex-premies. Premies don't make such admissions.
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Date: Tues, Aug 25, 1998 at 22:04:13 (EDT)
From: Cosmon
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Hello
Message:
I shall formally introduce myself . My real name is not Cosmon .
I hope everyone can accept my need for anonymity .
I live in Australia close to a town called Marysville.
I am not a follower of Maharaji but have attended some video
gatherings.
There is no feeling to receive his knowledge techniques .
I am a free soul and will not give my freedom away for some
kind of group membership.
I enjoy the freedom of movement that allows me to go where I
choose and to absorb what feels right .
But why are many people here so angry at Maharaji ?
I have read many posts but still find the degree of anger
sometimes expressed here to be very puzzling .
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Date: Tues, Aug 25, 1998 at 22:21:29 (EDT)
From: Gail
Email: freedom@gtn.net
To: Cosmon
Subject: Why I am angry.
Message:
Dear Cosmon:

I am very angry because MJ is a fraud. He held himself out to be the Lord of the Universe. I believed him. I listen to his brainwash for 24 years.

He encouraged us to hate everything about the world including ourselves. He taught us that our minds, our ideas were incorrect.
He talks about marriage, careers, friends, and the world in general in very negative terms.

He once said that the only reason he would work would be to enable him to see 'his master' once again. Everything was to be dedicated to him.

There would have been nothing wrong with this dedication if he were really the Lord, but he isn't. Stick around. People who have been very close to him will tell you about his lifestyle, his lack of dedication to the meditation and lifestyle that he preaches to his devotees. He is always just looking for more money and more devotion. Check out the slick marketing brochures that will come to your house if you give your name for the mailings.

Many, many times in my life I feverently attempted to practice his prescription for happiness; however, it is impossible to accomplish. Just ask anyone how far along they are on the path. THERE IS NO PATH.

The longer people follow MJ the more dysfunctional they become. He knows there is no such thing as a 'PERFECT MASTER' yet he continues to deceive people. He must be stopped. He has ruined many peoples' lives. Look at his followers. Is there even one of them you would emulate?

Run to the nearest fire escape and maintain your sanity.

Yours truly,

Gail C. MacDougall
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Date: Tues, Aug 25, 1998 at 22:51:51 (EDT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Gail and all
Subject: Why I am angry.
Message:
Just want to echo Gail's excellent explanation of our anger.
Gail and I are both relatively new to this forum.
I have the same issues and sought forum help for the same reasons.
M and his subtle yet relentless and pervasive attitude about
career, relationships, self, over the years took a very hard toll
on my self esteem and my progress in life. It wasn't until I had
a rather severe wakeup call in December 97 that I came here and started to put the pieces together. And I found support and help and I got angry at what had happened to me! Anger is a very natural reaction to being hurt and if we were lucky enough to see the true cause and source of the hurt than good for us!
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Date: Tues, Aug 25, 1998 at 23:04:58 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Cosmon
Subject: Angry? Who's angry?
Message:
Cosmon,

I gave up my life, lock, stock and barrel for eight years solely because I believed this little fat, fuck. You have no idea the level of committment, sacrifice and devotion. Nor should you ever. Really, I wouldn't wish that experience on anyone. It was all for naught, Maharaji's a phony and now, the worst part of this, he stonewalls any of his critics while he continues to rake in millions. There are a lot of ways to put this but really, don't you get the picture?
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Date: Tues, Aug 25, 1998 at 23:33:22 (EDT)
From: Cosmon
Email: None
To: everyone
Subject: Anger !
Message:
Why are so many thousands of people from all around the world experiencing Maharaji as a kind of personal saviour ?
I didn't hear Maharaji being negative about worldly affairs .
When did he express negatively about relationships , ect , and how did he do this ?
Excuse me for asking such questions . I am trying to understand .
Why is there no pro-Maharaji internet site?
Do all the people here have knowledge ?
Do any meditate on this knowledge ?
Is there a biography about Maharaji's life ?
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Date: Tues, Aug 25, 1998 at 23:43:11 (EDT)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Cosmon
Subject: Anger !
Message:
I'm not angry. Sometimes I am sad.

To answer your questions:
1) They are brainwashed. Check out the aspirant process and the knowledge session on this site. If this doesn't help, read the instructor's manual.

2)Maharaji encouraged people to distance themselves from their families and give all of their love to him. He said that other relationships besides the master/devotee relationship were hollow.

3)Because he runs a cult and he wants direct control of any dissemination of information about it.

4)No, but most of them do.

5)Yes

6)Yes it is on this site.

Feel free to ask anything else you need to.
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Date: Wed, Aug 26, 1998 at 01:16:48 (EDT)
From: Cosmon
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: Anger !
Message:
VP, Perhaps my questioning and my quest are attempting to understand why it is that people cannot discover the common thread that unites them . It is this common thread that I seek in the words and actions of individuals . When I heard Maharaji say that he travels all over the world and that he encounters the same quest for fulfillment regardless of creed or nationality , I could relate to that . I have also travelled extensively and have realised the same thing .
Are those that follow Maharaji and many other teachers only responding to a message that they recognise as self-evident?
When did Maharaji state things like he is lord of the
universe ? This does not equate to the Maharaji I heard .
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Date: Wed, Aug 26, 1998 at 18:31:07 (EDT)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Cosmon
Subject: An answer for Cosmon
Message:
I do think that people can see common threads that unite us. I believe that Maharaji exploits these basic human needs (longing for the answer to why we are here, longing for love and spiritual guidance, meaning in our lives, etc.) for his own benefit.

The messages in Maharaji's aspirant videos made sense to me, too. Something about Maharaji's message made sense to everyone on this site...in the beginning anyway. But there are things you find out about Maharaji and his organization later on that are not in keeping with his first messages to you.

I know it is so tempting to WANT this to be for real. We have ALL been there, brother (sister?) I do think you should take a little time to read through the information on this site and on Jean-Michel's as well. Jean Michel used to work for Maharaji and he is a very reliable source of info. You could email him if you have any further questions, too.

When did Maharaji state things like he is lord of the
universe ?

In the 1970's Maharaji said that he was the new Perfect Master, just as Christ, Buddah, and Krishna had once been. He said he was coming to bring knowledge to the world and explode the 'peace bomb'. He opened up ashrams where people gave up everything (family, possessions, etc.) to go live, work for and worship HIM. Later he closed these ashrams and left many people with no place to live, after he asked them to devote all to him. He also repackaged his message and restructured his organization.

BTW, just for your information, he was involved in lawsuits with his MOTHER and older brother where they sued him for the control of the assets of his organization (sect/cult). His mother made him what he was, then she decided to take it away and make his older brother the Lord of the Universe. It's kind of amusing that now his Big brother has his own act where he does the same thing Maharaji does. They both claim to be rightful heir to their fathers line of perfect master-gurus.
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Date: Wed, Aug 26, 1998 at 04:13:23 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Cosmon
Subject: Anger !
Message:
Why are so many thousands of people from all around the world experiencing Maharaji as a kind of personal saviour ?

They are not that many! A few hundreds or thousands here and there, except for India. Can you believe that Scientology is at least 10 time more successful? As for India is concerned, the other gurus belonging to the tradition he is originated from are 10 time more successful (maybe not moneywise).

I didn't hear Maharaji being negative about worldly affairs .
When did he express negatively about relationships , ect , and how did he do this ?

Maybe you've only watched introductory videos! Or listened to the fairy tales premies say. Why don't you take some time to read some of the materials available on this website?

Excuse me for asking such questions . I am trying to understand . Why is there no pro-Maharaji internet site?

There was one.

Do all the people here have knowledge ?

I used to say I 'had' knowledge. There is nothing like 'm's knowledge' IMHO: it has NO existence, except in the belief system of some people. If you already believe in this, that means you've already been contaminated. Be careful, you're entering a belief/thinking/philosophy system.

Do any meditate on this knowledge ?

There are definitely meditation techniques. You can learn and practice them without m's belief system, and they'll be as valid.

Is there a biography about Maharaji's life ?

That's a good idea. There are tons of elements here and there on this site, somebody should take the time to write it. Why don't you go and read the 'history' section on this site?
And if you like the old indian stories of m's Indian background, you can also check my website where you'll be able to learn more about the whole Indian well hidden background.
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Date: Wed, Aug 26, 1998 at 04:19:46 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Cosmon
Subject: M is the savior!
Message:
experiencing Maharaji as a kind of personal saviour ?

A simple answer would be that premies involvement in the cult has some kind of therapeutic effect. There is an interesting book on the subject by Sudhir Kakar, and Indian/US psychologist who made research on those groups.
The fact that premies 'think' or 'feel' or 'know' he is the savior does not mean he is. That means they experience (like I did) something. What that feeling is is another question that you should find an (better) answer for.
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Date: Wed, Aug 26, 1998 at 06:56:40 (EDT)
From: Web Watcher
Email: None
To: Cosmon
Subject: Pro Maharaji web site
Message:
There is a pro Maharaji web site for premies or friends of Maharaji. The link is below.


Go to the Premie web site


There's a premie guestbook, messages to Maharaji and also a forum for premies.
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Date: Wed, Aug 26, 1998 at 15:24:44 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Cosmon
Subject: Anger !
Message:
Cosmon:

I received knowledge in 1973 and followed Maharaji for 10 years. Nine of those years I lived in one of his 'ashrams' which required you to renounce the world, and live a life of celibacy, poverty and obedience. I only lived in his ashram because I truly believed he was, basically, god in human form walking on the planet. From the time Maharaji arrived in the west, until at least 1983 when I left his cult, he was portrayed, by himself and by others, as the equivalent of Jesus Christ, Buddha, Mohammad and Krishna. His titles were 'perfect master,' 'lord of the universe,' 'the superior power in person,' 'satguru,' and others.

Maharaji specifically approved these titles and allowed himself to be called such, without comment. He used to have us line up by the thousands and, one by one, kiss his feet, something that he recently began doing again and have us 'pranam' bow down to him by prostrating on the floor. If nothing else, this confirms that he still considers himself a deity, but just doesn't say so to aspirants and new people in those watered-down introductory videos that are put together to get people hooked without telling them what they are really getting into.

Many people renounced their lives to follow him, which he specifically said one was supposed to do. All 'attachements' other than to him were bad and this included, family, career, friends and the like. Your own mind was considered 'evil' and if you were his devotee you were commanded by him to never 'doubt' which was a dangerous recipe for keeping people involved for years, whether they were happy as premies or not.

All of these doctrines he propogated had very negative effects on many people, and he has never once taken any responsiblity for anything that happened to these people. There are many thousands of people who are ex-premies, who have come to realize he is a fraud, and basically just into his whole trip for the money. Have you noticed the extremely luxurious lifestyle he lives?

When I was a premie, I had some profound experiences, and I still have them. I do not doubt that many of the experiences premies are having are profound and real. The thing we have discovered, however, is that the experience has absolutely nothing to do with Maharaji. It comes from inside yourself, and Maharaji deceitfully tries to convince people he is essential to the experience they are having, and therefore he deserves devotion, or gratitude, from them, mostly in the form of money and adoration.

Things are a little more slick nowadays, but it is just as deceiftul as ever. If you are an aspirant, it is unlikely you have been told anywhere near the whole story of what M's about, what is past is, and what you will be expected to do if you become a premie.

Hope this helps.

JW
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Date: Wed, Aug 26, 1998 at 15:42:50 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Well Said..
Message:
JW: That was very well said and absolutely correct. I echo your sentiments, exactly. Hey, on an aside, were you residing in the SF ashram in 1974? If so, I probably have met you. Scott & I were in a K-session there in Feb(?) of that year.
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Date: Wed, Aug 26, 1998 at 16:10:26 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Well Said..
Message:
No, I didn't arrive in San Francisco until 1980. In 1974 I was in Chicago and then San Antonio.
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Date: Wed, Aug 26, 1998 at 17:41:28 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Heck...
Message:
JW: I have a pretty good memory when it comes to faces. Doggone it, I thought I might have actually met you. Well, maybe in the future, then. We take trips to California, fairly often so who knows? Actually, I had a great trip to San Francisco a few years ago. I especially enjoyed the recently(?) renovated downtown areas. Really nice! Everything looked brand new.
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Date: Wed, Aug 26, 1998 at 20:40:52 (EDT)
From: Cosmon
Email: None
To: all
Subject: Anger !
Message:
Thankyou to all those who have responded to my questions .
I have many other questions but for now I feel to digest what you all have said . Thanks again.
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Date: Tues, Aug 25, 1998 at 18:20:24 (EDT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: another forum
Message:
I had mentioned an article I just read about
'The Forum'
The forum is a revision of Warner Ehrhard's est seminar training
(circa 70's and 80's)
The writer went through the introductory seminar for a price
of $385 and 10 hours per day for a weekend.
At the end of the first night they are strongly encouraged to take the advanced seminar, for $700, to assure that they get
'the result'. Although questioned, the trainer did not explain what to expect from the 'result' - she gave anecdotal stories, etc.
The gist seems to be that after the weekend you are made to see that you have been operating from negative programming and blaming of others, this is called your 'racket' and you are expected to write and call and be moved to offer forgiveness in order to get rid of your racket. All this in one weekend! They grossed $48 million last year.
I guess Ehrhard had 'sold' est but it said he still retained rights to the profits.
It was interesting. Seems like more revisionism, the trainer was quoted as saying 'this differs from est, est was for the 70's this is for the 90's.'
I think another way of saying it is, 'this sells better in the 90's'.
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Date: Tues, Aug 25, 1998 at 19:13:49 (EDT)
From: eb
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: another forum
Message:
Hi Selene,

I had a friend who attended The Forum and came out speaking waggle words (lots of 'it's abouts'). But for $45, I attended a Forgiveness Workshop back in 1989 and came out believing that I'd be all better if I'd just 'forgive and let it all go.' Sort of like putting dirty clothes in the dryer to clean them without washing them first (IMO).

If this doesn't make sense, please blame it on the double latte I had for lunch. I'll go now and wait for the buzz to subside.

With love,
eb
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Date: Tues, Aug 25, 1998 at 19:27:10 (EDT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: eb
Subject: another forum
Message:
You make a lot of sense eb.
That's what the author was saying, there is no way you could learn
that kind of forgiveness in one weekend no matter what you pay. It's an interestin article, especially from a 'cult' perspective, to see what is appealing to the middle class business people these days. M has some competition that's for sure.
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Date: Tues, Aug 25, 1998 at 21:45:23 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Landmark Forum?
Message:
Selene:

Is this the infamous 'Landmark Forum?'

-Scott
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Date: Tues, Aug 25, 1998 at 21:58:45 (EDT)
From: Bobby
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Landmark Forum?
Message:
yes
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Date: Tues, Aug 25, 1998 at 22:34:20 (EDT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Bobby and Scott
Subject: Landmark Forum?
Message:
Yes, the article did reference them as Landmark Forum. Guess I'm a babe in the woods about this, tho I knew est types very closely back in the 80's and was recruited. Guess you could say it was one of the good things about already being in M's cult, I felt too superior to be sucked into these people's trip.
According to the article, W . E. did a disappearing act
and left the country due to numerous lawsuits,e tc. but still
maintains an interest in his revisionist company.
They even have another layer, ala Elan Vital, called Landmark Education Corporation, last year's receipts at $48 million with 300 paid employees including 40-odd seminar leaders.
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Date: Tues, Aug 25, 1998 at 23:31:11 (EDT)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Selene and all
Subject: Do you remember...
Message:
...that movie with Burt Reynolds (I can't remember the name of it-what's new!) where, in one part of the story, he goes to this seminar to 'get IT'? Does anyone remember seeing this? That is what this seminar forum reminds me of. No one ever explained what IT was in the movie, BTW. It was pretty funny.
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Date: Wed, Aug 26, 1998 at 00:12:49 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: Do you remember...
Message:
I remember it. I don't remember the name of it, either, but I do remember that Kris Kristofferson was in it, too. Kris was the one that was in to all the new age stuff and Burt was just tagging along at the est session. He got so relaxed at it, he fell asleep and peed in his pants. I wish I could remember the name of it.
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Date: Wed, Aug 26, 1998 at 00:56:38 (EDT)
From: eb
Email: None
To: Jerry and VP
Subject: Do you remember...
Message:
Was it Semi-Tough?

eb

P.S. And if so, do I get any points?
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Date: Wed, Aug 26, 1998 at 01:23:25 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: eb
Subject: Do you remember...
Message:
Was it Semi-Tough?

You got it and you get 1 billion points. Ahh, make that 2 billion, what the heck.
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Date: Wed, Aug 26, 1998 at 02:02:51 (EDT)
From: eb
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Yes!!!!!
Message:
Dear Jerry,

I am ecstatic! You can ask John K. or JW or Scott T. or VP--I've been trying to get points on this forum for the last year. This is my first victory. Yippee!

Love,
eb
Return to Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Wed, Aug 26, 1998 at 11:06:41 (EDT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: eb
Subject: Yes!!!!!
Message:
Congrats eb. You can even have IT as well! (I can give it away I have the power)
Since 'The Forum' is really just est-lite, I guess IT and The Result are the same thing. hmm....
I remember the intro session they dragged me too, the people
were unbelievably agressive and rude. That was in 1982. Maybe they toned it down a little, but the article did mention several instances where the speaker insulted people.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Wed, Aug 26, 1998 at 12:56:03 (EDT)
From: eb
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Thanks, Selene
Message:
I already got 'it' back in '73, but I can always use another one.

Yeah, I remember those groups: realization through intimidation. And no one goes to the potty except during designated breaks. Selene, you and I might not have lasted through the weekend with the jerks. (I'm still picturing you forcing your way through M's security to feed your kids. You rebel you).

Love,
eb
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Date: Wed, Aug 26, 1998 at 14:04:02 (EDT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: eb
Subject: Thanks, Selene
Message:
Yes I can definitely be a rebel when something seems truly wrong
to me. Yet I still hang around wwwaaaaayyyy toooo long.
Oh well. I got really good at traveling that's one good thing.
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Date: Wed, Aug 26, 1998 at 18:43:48 (EDT)
From: VP
Email: None
To: eb
Subject: Points from me, too, eb
Message:
Thanks for remembering that it was Semi-Tough. That has been driving me crazy. I kept thinking it was North Dallas Forty :)You can have lots of points from me, too.

I had forgotten that Burt fell asleep and peed in this pants, Jerry. I guess that was because they weren't allowed any bathroom breaks during those seminars.
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Date: Wed, Aug 26, 1998 at 18:16:45 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Landmark Forum?
Message:
Selene and Bobby:

I met a guy in a Powwow chat room who was there to talk about the Landmark Forum. Basically, he was an ex member with some really horrific stories about satanic rites, drug induced sexual orgies, and the like. At the time I had never heard of the group, and didn't connect it with EST at all. He said he was in the process of writing a book, or an expose.

-Scott
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Date: Wed, Aug 26, 1998 at 23:40:36 (EDT)
From: eb
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Drug induced sexual orgies?
Message:
Hi Scott, Since you mentioned it, I thought of a positive side to being a premie--at least we didn't need the drugs!
eb
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Date: Wed, Aug 26, 1998 at 23:43:40 (EDT)
From: eb
Email: None
To: scott
Subject: Oops, I forgot,
Message:
that wasn't you, was it?

Nevermind.
eb
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Date: Wed, Aug 26, 1998 at 23:53:51 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: eb
Subject: Oops, I forgot,
Message:
eb:

I have a trance-induced amnesia that's got me covered for the whole period.

-Scott
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Date: Wed, Aug 26, 1998 at 23:50:13 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: eb
Subject: Other way 'round
Message:
eb:

The way this guy told it, the regular or higher echelon people in the group would introduce a gas into the room that caused people to lose their inhibitions. Then they would have them perform really perverse sex acts... stuff we haven't thought of yet. He was talking bestiality and worse. No, it doesn't sound much like Maharaji's World at all. The EST training, on the other hand, was so peculiar that I'm thinking there just might be something to it.

-Scott
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Date: Thurs, Aug 27, 1998 at 17:03:50 (EDT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Other way 'round
Message:
wow, it's not so comforting to know our current corporate consutlant is from this ilk.

Then again maybe that's why our upper management has started attending private seminars at his house. Seriously that is where they are going now instead of holding the seminars onsite.
hmmm....

RE: amnesia,I too have conveneiently forgotten many things about those years
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Date: Thurs, Aug 27, 1998 at 19:18:40 (EDT)
From: eb
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Private Seminars
Message:
Very interesting, Selene.

Do you notice any strange behavior in your workplace? I mean out of the ordinary?

Just curious,
eb
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Date: Thurs, Aug 27, 1998 at 22:07:19 (EDT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: eb
Subject: Private Seminars
Message:
Well you said it eb. They are all so strange that it's hard to
see anything too much out of the ordinary. The cult leader certainly is weird though. He holds himself very rigid, has one of those uptight stances, thin and muscular but for some reason it's unattractive even though he obviously works out and stuff, his demeanor makes it creepy, like arrogant perfectionism or something.
And the few sessions I attended, he has this way of staring really intensely at you, like it's supposed to be charismatic and seductive but somehow is unappealing to me.
So the fact that the 4 or 5 members of our 'in crowd' march off to his house a few times a week for these sessions is weird enough in and of itself. I have to wonder. They seem too uptight to actually manifest the stuff physically but I bet there's some serious mind fucks going on - in more ways than one!
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Date: Fri, Aug 28, 1998 at 01:41:48 (EDT)
From: eb
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Private Seminars
Message:
Very creepy, Selene.

I guess you wouldn't want to infiltrate that group and serve as a mole, you know, spy on 'em and report back what you find. I'd say you've already done enough research.

I was thinking about this because, remember the account I gave of the women's circle I attended?, a friend of mine read it and suggested I attend new age hooey hooey seminars and do reviews for a local new age rag (because of my tongue-in-cheek writing style, I guess). I'd get a bit freaked out by someone staring me down like that though.

Good night, Selene.
Love,
eb
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Date: Fri, Aug 28, 1998 at 14:41:44 (EDT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: eb
Subject: Private Seminars
Message:
It would be amusing to be a mole at these types of things wouldn't it? I would like to make a career of it. This is sort of what this woman who wrote the Forum article did.
She wrote it for the CULTure Watch article they have in ELLE every month (I think it's a regular). It's actually pretty good. That's where I learned about the Cult Awareness Network being taken over by Scientologists. I feel like writing to her about M and seeing if she or we could come up with something.
As for the work thing, nah, I have a hard enuf time being around all these people in work related issues.
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Date: Tues, Aug 25, 1998 at 17:14:11 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Private collection
Message:
Don't lurk at :

Private recent copyrighted picture gallery of the future retired satguru

Did you like them ?
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Date: Tues, Aug 25, 1998 at 17:47:06 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Private collection
Message:
Very well done. What is the picture at the top in which Maharaji has what look like sparklers coming out of his head? I think it's appropriate that a number of the pictures feature feet. As we all know, feet are one of the most important elements of Maharaji's cult.

[He certainly hasn't lost any weight -- has he?]
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Date: Tues, Aug 25, 1998 at 18:06:24 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: He looks like a pig
Message:
Good work, JM. My favorite is the top right picture. Jabba the Hut or what?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Tues, Aug 25, 1998 at 20:40:39 (EDT)
From: VP
Email: None
To: JW, JM
Subject: It's Carmen Miranda!
Message:
JW,

What is the picture at the top in which Maharaji has what look like sparklers coming out of his head?

Why, that is the picture that makes Carmen Miranda the perfect person to play Maharaji in the movie we are producing...he needs a few bananas tucked in there, though.

Doesn't he look SO sincere in the one where he seated at the table in that great suit holding the teacup? HA! My personal favorite is the top right. Words cannot do that one justice.

Nice job, JM. I wonder how many computer screens have lipstick smears all over them at this moment---
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Date: Tues, Aug 25, 1998 at 22:39:16 (EDT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: It's Carmen Miranda!
Message:
Nice job, JM. I wonder how many computer screens have
lipstick smears all over them at this moment---

eeeiiiooowwwww!!!!! Not aqain. I thought I had seen it all
with the lipstick tapes and now you introduce this very
plausible reality. Good thing I ate a lite dinner.
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Date: Tues, Aug 25, 1998 at 22:47:35 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: Mine too!
Message:
I kind of like the one in the top right, myself. He looks like he's off to the disco to knock out the babes. Love the gold chain, don't you? Hey, Tony!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Wed, Aug 26, 1998 at 12:41:35 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: Don't insult her...
Message:
VP: Not my computer screen! (squeek, squeek, squeek....never mind that man with the windex wipe).

JEEZ, that was a funny take on who he looked like (I'm talking gufaws, here). In my post below, I asked why he was wearing a christmas tree on his head (and noted that it was probably for us to put our 'gratitude' under). I think your analogy is MUCH better. ...snicker...snicker...
Return to Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Fri, Aug 28, 1998 at 14:49:22 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: It's Carmen Miranda!
Message:
VP, you are such a great guy! Carmen Miranda, that's exactly who he looks like. He would also need a big pineapple on his head.
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Date: Sat, Aug 29, 1998 at 16:08:30 (EDT)
From: VP
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: It's Carmen Miranda!
Message:
Thanks, JW. He does need a pineapple, too. Good call.
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Date: Tues, Aug 25, 1998 at 19:20:56 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Gaaa, Yuck!
Message:
JM: Good job. Hey, the picture of him walking in his pajamas (third one down on the left) brings back a very pleasant memory. It's the one I SPIT ON when I found out he was a fraud! Thank You, I thought I would never see it again.
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Date: Tues, Aug 25, 1998 at 23:11:46 (EDT)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: God, I feel ill...
Message:
Thanks, JM,

...I mean that instant recognition that grabs you before you have even registered what you are looking at... The way things start to swim before your eyes and the world takes on an unreal aspect... ... the way you all at once have this almost irresistable urge to vomit...

I don't think I'll ever be free of this loathsome bullfrog until I can see him as just another middle-aged, Indian sort of chap just like... well, actually, I'm not sure I've ever seen any other middle-aged Indian sort of chap with such a golden, glowing face, and I can't help but to be, to be amazed. In my heart, there is only love for you, since you've opened it up. The magic of your love fulfills my every prayer. I have only eyes for you. Take my world my whole life too - hoo. Every single star shines just for yoo - hoo - hoo -hoo - hoo. Every time that I'm feeling all alone, You arrive with my ticket back to my home. In this world we were meant to be la de dah, dah de dum dum de the magic of your power fulfills my every prayer, I have only eyes for you....(Damn. Look what you've done, JM)... Take my world my whole life too - hoo. Every single star shines just for yoo - hoo - hoo - hoo - hoo... (I'm off to the premie forum now, and it's all your fault)
Return to Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Wed, Aug 26, 1998 at 10:57:39 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: God, I feel ill...
Message:
Nigel: That was just tooooo funny. Now... cut that out! ;-)
Return to Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Tues, Aug 25, 1998 at 23:14:18 (EDT)
From: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Private collection
Message:
Great photos! I love that slimey little caterpillar mustache! Katie and Peter were over last night and I commented that the only people wearing mustaches now days are cops and firefighters; I forgot to mention creepy guru fraud types. I must admit that, after seeing the more recent (bare-faced) photos, that he really looks a lot like his dad, if his dad had spent the day gorging on ice cream and the appropriately named gorditas from Taco Bell.
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Date: Wed, Aug 26, 1998 at 11:24:28 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Mickey the Pharisee
Subject: Private collection
Message:
MP: I wonder if the police and fire guys know they are in such lofty company. he...he...he.
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Date: Wed, Aug 26, 1998 at 00:08:01 (EDT)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Evil looking?
Message:
Jean-Michel,

I forgot to mention this earlier. When I first came on the forum, I said that when I was a child I was afraid of some of the photos that I saw of Maharaji. I remember thinking, 'If this isn't the Lord, then he is the devil.' I thought he looked evil. An example of what I am talking about would be the picture of him as a child--the next the the last picture scrolling down. He was a good looking kid, but there was something in those eyes...this isn't a real great example of it.

I wish I had seen more goofey photos of M like the other ones on this page when I was younger. Maybe I wouldn't have been so frightened if I had seen 'Carmen' and 'Tony' at the top there. I'm serious.
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Date: Wed, Aug 26, 1998 at 01:12:07 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: Evil looking?
Message:
If I'm to be honest here, I find the photos of him as a child to be quite beautiful. Then again, it's only the photos I find beautiful. Kind of like the man on-stage versus the man off-stage, a man I never met. I never met this beautiful child, either. As always, all I ever get of M is a beautiful front. God only knows what the real deal is behind it. But I wonder how many people were captivated by these childhood photos and were sent well on their way towards becoming hooked by the cult as a result of them. They were obviously taken with the intent of giving the child a mystique that would draw you ever so nearer to him.
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Date: Wed, Aug 26, 1998 at 07:13:35 (EDT)
From: Sir David
Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com
To: Jerry
Subject: I was captivated by the child
Message:
I was captivated by those photos of Maharaji as a young kid. I remember wishing back in 1972 that he hadn't grown up. I imagined that he was a child Krishna and I was Arjuna, fighting battles for him and loyal to the last. I think the child Maharaji was very different to the adult one. The child COULD have been an incarnation of God or something, in my eyes anyway. But the recent photos are very, very different. He looks like a middle aged Asian businessman.
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Date: Wed, Aug 26, 1998 at 12:53:50 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Sir David
Subject: I was captivated by the child
Message:
Sir: I think you guys are on to something (IMHO). I remember that those early photos were favorites among premies. I think they did have a major impact on anyone that loves the smile of a 'baby.' Who can stop smiling when an infant is giving them that innocent grin? Yeah, you might really be onto something here....
Return to Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Wed, Aug 26, 1998 at 18:55:44 (EDT)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Sir David/Jerry
Subject: I was creeped-out by the child
Message:
I do think the other child photo on the page is beautiful. He WAS a good lookin' kid. There WAS something in his eyes that I thought was insincere, and that photo is the closest example on that page of what I was talking about. It's NOT a really good example. Maybe Jean Michel can dig up an evil-eyed one for his page.

Anyway, I was a kid, and his photos gave me the creeps. That's all I know. I have recently discovered I am psychic, so I guess I was onto something back then. :)

Sir David, he does look like an Indian buisnessman now. I guess he wants to look legitimate. This seems to be more important than looking sincere.
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Date: Thurs, Aug 27, 1998 at 09:01:23 (EDT)
From: Becky
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: Evil looking?
Message:
You said you've discovered recently that you're psychic. How did you discover that. AND WHY DIDN'T YOU REALISE BEFORE? Now you're getting to know your other human gifts.
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Date: Thurs, Aug 27, 1998 at 13:02:10 (EDT)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Becky
Subject: Psychic or Sense?
Message:
Becky,

It's an ongoing email discussion I have had with several people here. I'm not sure that I even believe someone can be psychic, but predicting things happens to me all of the time. I also dream things and then they come true. (I feel the flames now...should have posted this on MMT-snicker!)

What I DO believe is that I pay attention to things and I have good instincts about people (usually). I think this enables me to predict outcomes-how people will act, how a situation will turn out. It's probably based on common sense.

I have been doing this all of my life, and when I was young I used to think it was a special power. Now I think there must be a logical explaination for it.

Where's Robyn when I need her? :)
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Date: Thurs, Aug 27, 1998 at 13:25:22 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: Psychic or Sense?
Message:
...(I feel the flames now...should have posted this on MMT-snicker!)

You might as well. There's nothing going on over there except for a couple of knuckleheads playing kidnapper/kidnappee. Sheesh.
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Date: Thurs, Aug 27, 1998 at 13:38:34 (EDT)
From: Becky
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Survival Sense
Message:
Looking at things from a Darwinist-Jim point of view, I suspect that 'psychic abilities' a part of our survival equipment. If we are very in tune, we can predict quite spooky things.
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Date: Thurs, Aug 27, 1998 at 14:14:35 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: Psychic Flames
Message:
VP: OK, you asked for it, HERE THEY COME (the flames)...... Made ya look!!! :-)
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Date: Thurs, Aug 27, 1998 at 17:59:08 (EDT)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Psychic Flames
Message:
Thanks, Mike. Those weren't as bad as I had picured :)
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Date: Wed, Aug 26, 1998 at 02:32:52 (EDT)
From: eb
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Private collection
Message:
Excellent, JM!

While reviewing the pictures, I thought what I think whenever I see my ex-husband: 'What was it I saw in him?' Love must certainly be blind and deaf and beauty in the eye of the beholder.

I used to gaze for hours at his pictures; I feel the spell is broken.

Thanks, JM.
eb
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Date: Wed, Aug 26, 1998 at 02:51:33 (EDT)
From: Judith
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Private collection
Message:
$60 million dollars a year? What a businessman, is my comment. Oh, and the pictures tell a million stories. Thanks, Jean-Michel.
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Date: Wed, Aug 26, 1998 at 21:56:27 (EDT)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: Judith
Subject: Hi there
Message:
Hi Judith. I wondered where you were.
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Date: Thurs, Aug 27, 1998 at 05:37:47 (EDT)
From: Judith
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: Hi there
Message:
Hi Gail
I went on a trip. I'm back, but only just. I think I must have lost a few screws on the way! Now I'm a bolt short of a meccano set, if you know what I mean!
Just trying to be funny. Yeah, I guess I still need this Forum therapy, even though I like to pretend sometimes that I don't need any help and can do it all myself. Thanks for the welcome back.
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Date: Wed, Aug 26, 1998 at 22:02:08 (EDT)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Judith
Subject: Hey Jude
Message:
How's it going?
Good to hear from you. I told Katie that I miss seeing you. I hope that all is well with you these days.
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Date: Thurs, Aug 27, 1998 at 05:50:44 (EDT)
From: Judith
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: Hey Jude
Message:
Hey VP I believe you are psychic, because the very morning Katie mentioned in an e-mail something about you, you had actually flashed through my head (like a moth through a lightbulb) as one of the people I would miss if I stopped being involved with the Forum. At the moment, I am feeling so humble all I can do is read and look up all the big words, haven't had much to say!

Come to think of it, perhaps Selene could write a comic strip and turn some of us into comic characters - what do you think - for people with more visual imaginations? Imagine the Big M done cartoon style! Lots of possibilities! We could all be in search of the Treasure of the Lost Truth or something! Wonder where it could be hiding!
Anyway, thanks for your thoughts, VP and a hug for you.
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Date: Wed, Aug 26, 1998 at 11:45:38 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Private collection II
Message:
JM: I forgot to ask a question. Hey, you know that I was around since nearly the beginning. I know what the K-crown looks like, but why is he wearing a christmas tree on his head? (You know, the one with all of the tinsel).
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Date: Wed, Aug 26, 1998 at 11:46:56 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: In addition:
Message:
Could it be that he wants us to put our 'gratitude' under it? Is that it? ...snicker
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Date: Wed, Aug 26, 1998 at 11:58:01 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Private collection II
Message:
why is he wearing a christmas tree on his head?

Your guess is as good as mine, but we've been able to watch this thanks to his beloved photographer!

Maybe he had lost his safe's key, you know the one where the real one is stored, and his devotees wanted to see him with his Indian idol outfit.
They went to the village market (Mehrauli) and got a xmas tree outfit.

He had no other choice .... his devotees love can do anything, you know ....
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Date: Wed, Aug 26, 1998 at 18:28:01 (EDT)
From: TD
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Ooooooh, tack-o-rama....
Message:
Thanks JM for those! Do you think he'd let anybody borrow the tinsel-carmen-number for Mardi Gras?

As for his Tony phase, did he look like this when he and Marolyn got married?

A slightly nauseated TD
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Date: Wed, Aug 26, 1998 at 22:08:23 (EDT)
From: g's mom
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: I want more pics
Message:
these are my requests:

The one from the Divine Times of Marolyn, Premlata, and newborn Hansi sitting on a bed.

The one of Hansi from the big pic book I bought in Rome that had this like 18 month old toddler with olive skin and blonde hair, really cute.

Lots of Holi pics!!!

How about pics from a Darshan line?

Just suggestions. I destroyed all my pics when I left, I was a big collector. I was tryiong to prove to myself I would not burst into flames if I drew horns on the guru and such.
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Date: Thurs, Aug 27, 1998 at 11:16:26 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: g's mom
Subject: I want more pics
Message:
G'sM: See... the spontaneous combustion claim was fake, too... he he he.
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Date: Thurs, Aug 27, 1998 at 11:19:51 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: g's mom
Subject: I want more pics
Message:
I don't know where my photos are, but I do have a few that might be of interest. I'll see if I can find them and scan some this weekend. I'll try to send them to Jean-Michel, to add to the collection. Most of mine are in the fairly old category, as I recall.
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Date: Thurs, Aug 27, 1998 at 12:47:45 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: More pics: Thanks, BUT!
Message:
I'm trying to focus on the 'INDIAN' side of Lord: Indian pictures of any kind welcome, the others will go to my private collection.
If you send me files, make them jpg and about 240 x 240 maximum.

I'm working on some new stuff, online in 1 or 2 days.
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Date: Thurs, Aug 27, 1998 at 13:08:07 (EDT)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: More pics: Thanks, BUT!
Message:
I just sent you a wedding pic of M and an article. Did they get there alright? Sorry, but I hadn't know that you wanted Indian pictures when I sent them.
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Date: Thurs, Aug 27, 1998 at 17:02:30 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: More pics: Thanks, BUT!
Message:
Thank you, they are ok I guess. But as I told you I am now into some new stuff I'm just going to reveal you now:
I'll have some of the best Indian stories m told numerous times,
all those tales that have been the base of your philosophy!
I am in the process of checking them, plenty of good Indian satsang!

I've triued to find some good old full version of them, I'm still looking for some ....
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Date: Thurs, Aug 27, 1998 at 18:05:24 (EDT)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: More pics: Thanks, BUT!
Message:
I'll have some of the best Indian stories m told numerous times,
all those tales that have been the base of your philosophy!

Thanks, JM. I guess now I'm onto finding a new philosophy...
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Date: Thurs, Aug 27, 1998 at 13:40:32 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: More pics: Thanks, BUT!
Message:
JM: Ok, I'll try to focus on that aspect. Again, I'm not sure how many I have and they may be duplicates of the ones you have. I do have one really grotesque K-crown photo (up close and full-face. looking straight into camera). I can scan into any format, so jpg it is. This ought to be fun. BTW, do you remember a book called, 'The living master' ? I have a copy of that pearl of wisdom, too.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Thurs, Aug 27, 1998 at 16:57:57 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: More pics: Thanks, BUT!
Message:
Yes I remember the booklet, but I don't have a copy yet.
Some exes her are going to give me huge lots of stuff, but I haven't visited their cellars yet.
Can you scan it or mail me a good copy ?
Or process it with OCR ? It surely contains some pearls!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Thurs, Aug 27, 1998 at 18:11:47 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: The Book
Message:
JM: Yes, I'll look for it while I look for the pics. It is kind of thick, as I recall, but I'll try to scan it so that I can send it to you electronically vice snail mail.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Thurs, Aug 27, 1998 at 08:46:58 (EDT)
From: Becky
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: A rival for Princess Di
Message:
The skiing pic is just great. Maybe M should marry Prince Charles. I used to have the one of him sitting in front of the world. I gave all my pics back to my premie friends too. I must confess though he was a beautiful child. I wouldn't mind having a son who looked like that - God forbid he turn out like Maharaji though. I'd give him a good thrashing and tell him to respect his mother!!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Tues, Aug 25, 1998 at 11:45:02 (EDT)
From: Sir David
Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Easy modified light online
Message:
I'm in the process of putting my own revised meditation techniques online. Click below to get my easy peasy like technique.


Go to my revised techniques


I'll put the other techniques on later, when I have time.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Mon, Aug 24, 1998 at 21:17:34 (EDT)
From: RT
Email: mmmm
To: Everyone
Subject: Readmail.com
Message:
Hi everybody!

Travelling giving you email withdrawal? You can get your email from any web based computer by going to www.readmail.com.
Enter your user name and password BUT you must do this:

USER NAME: [Yourname]@mail.[isp].com

PASSWORD: normal entry

The word mail must go after the @. That's where it's at!

RT - A Friend In Deed.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Mon, Aug 24, 1998 at 21:11:07 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Bizarre Premie Hypocrisy
Message:
Here's the kind of shit that really bugs me. Below, typical premie, PT, said the following:

Dear Jerry,
I guess this thread demonstrates what happens when you get things second hand. For the full, unexpurgated, plain English version of what Maharaji said, get the 1997 Long Beach video (Saturday morning event?).
PT

How many premies have we seen here trying to defend goofus on this basis? As if, there is SO MUCH DANGER in second hand accounts, that maybe WE BETTER NOT TALK ABOUT THINGS AT ALL! And this, from a cult that gets progressively secretive as the years go by. Like, we weren't there when Maharaji fucked Monica and no one (that really matters) talks about these things, so maybe we shouldn't discuss them period. Oh, there is such a danger in second-hand information!

More fundamentally, there's such a danger in words themselves! Poeople have been known to misunderstand each other. Forget for a moment, if you can, that Maharaji has done all he can to avoid clearing up any possible misunderstandings. No, that would be too easy.

This is all bogus. Premies are bogus. The cult's a big waste of time and, as we can all see, it's atrophying.

Fighting -- or even discussing -- Maharaji's vapidity is becoming an increasingly obscure activity. He's fading into a little poo stain on the fabric of twentieth century history. Not worthy of mention in the Time/Life decades series (70's, naturally), he'd be lucky to get his own page if Time/Life did a book on cult leaders of that great decade.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Mon, Aug 24, 1998 at 21:19:32 (EDT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Bizarre Premie Hypocrisy
Message:
So What PT?
Yes, M said 'him/ or her' in reference to 'the Master' several times in LB 97. and sorry, we are not all misinformed. Only the ones who ignore my posts :)
I have mentioned this several times on forum because I think it is significant and my theory is he is ready to promote Dya. This via the second hand premie grapevine as well as my own conclusions having been there and, by the way, having been there doesn't mean shit anyway, because M will do whatever he pleases and change his mind whenever he wants.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Mon, Aug 24, 1998 at 21:27:10 (EDT)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: Jim and all
Subject: cults of the decades
Message:
Didn't mean to shout in my last post. Forgot to close the bold tag. But so what? I can live with shouting in this circumstance.
I have just finished an article written about 'The Forum'
Yes, another forum still! It's the new name the est people
have taken on. The article contains a lot of info and I want to start a new thread about it later, but for now just wanted to say that Jim got me thinking; not only will M's flock dwindle as the days go by, but he will be ignored by most contemporary media. It must bug him - even tho he wants a low profile it must be irritating to be upstaged by a former car salesman.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Mon, Aug 24, 1998 at 21:36:34 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: BPH (cont'd)
Message:
And that's another thing -- my browser, IE, keeps jamming up on me, forcing me to reboot. Where's the grace when you need it, huh?

Anyway, here's my point. These fucking premies and their fucking guru... I don't knoooowww. Like these are the last people in the world who care about details, truth, real history, anything. They just ain't that way, you know? Did Maharaji REALLY get the recipe for the magic sauce from dad or did his brother? Who the fuck cares so long as you've got the love, right? So long as your heart is as full as a teenage girl's hankie at the end of Titanic, the rest are bothersome details. Maharaji's past, his wealth, his words, his deeds, everything. Details.

But then, get one of these guys actually talking about things, get them to deal with some embarrasing aspect of Maharaji's real life, the one he tries his damndest to hide from anyone with half a brain, and they jump up like an army of precious, hypercritical lexicographers, little ants nibbling away at stale, irrelevant ambiguities as if there is sustenance for the nightmare they call a dream. What hypocrites!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Tues, Aug 25, 1998 at 12:02:56 (EDT)
From: RT
Email: mmmmmmm
To: Jim
Subject: JAVA Jive
Message:
Hi Jim, try disabling JAVA in IE to prevent hang ups. I was told this by a second generation IS master.

RT who is a Netscape Follower.
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Date: Tues, Aug 25, 1998 at 13:17:33 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: RT
Subject: JAVA Jive
Message:
RT: Another known issue with certain versions of IE: When java is enabled AND you are using the true-color setting on your video, there will be a lockup anytime java is activated. To fix: cut your colors back to 65K or 256. Hope it helps.
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Date: Tues, Aug 25, 1998 at 14:25:31 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: JAVA Jive
Message:
Thanks Mike and RT,

My computer was already set at 256 so I tried disabling Java. I'll see if that works. But what's does that mean? That I can't use JAVA? Thanks for your help,

Jim
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Date: Tues, Aug 25, 1998 at 15:22:17 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Another possibility
Message:
Jim: This subject came up in another thread, but this is worth a try too.

- Check to ensure that your 'internet temporary files' folders are emptied on a regular basis. If they aren't, and you have reached the limit (e.g. 5% of your hard drive or whatever), IE will start to do some very strange things and it gets VERY SLOW. Lockups are common with this one, too.

- Ensure that you have enough available hard drive space to hold the above. Also, if your hard drive starts to get full, or hasn't been defragged in a while, NT and 95 will have problems maintaining the 'swap' files. There has to be enough room for them to grow-on-demand or there will be problems.

- Keep a log of the times the lockups occur and what other software you have running at the time. If the above fixes don't work, let me know and I will try to walk thru some debugging stuff with you.
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Date: Tues, Aug 25, 1998 at 17:21:34 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Another possibility
Message:
I copied this off of a website while I was browsing for solutions to computer's freezing with a Windows 95/IE 4.0 configuration. If all else fails...

...A More Elegant Solution

Resolving MacNown's predicament was a bit more
complicated than just downloading a driver. The
Microsoft technician told MacNown that to get his ducks
in a row, he needed to move all his files off his C: drive,
reformat his partitions, then reinstall IE 4.0 and the
Windows 95 system files all in the same drive partition.

But MacNown has come up with a different solution.
'I've been using Netscape Navigator 4.0 without any
problems,' he says, 'and that's how I want to keep it.'

Hmm.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Tues, Aug 25, 1998 at 17:55:23 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Another possibility
Message:
Mike,

If you could call me sometime -- I'll call you back -- I'll take you up on your offer. My broswer still freezes. I would go Netscape except I have one of them there intellimouses and I like to scroll through the text on pages once in a while. That only works with IE.

(250) 360-1040.

Thanks,

Jim
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Date: Wed, Aug 26, 1998 at 11:00:35 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: I'll call this weekend
Message:
Jim: I'll give you a buzz this weekend.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Thurs, Aug 27, 1998 at 11:31:55 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: I'll call this weekend
Message:
Great,

Problem persists. I should be around during the day Saturday. If not, leave a message and I'll call you back.

Thanks,

Jim
Return to Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Tues, Aug 25, 1998 at 06:57:31 (EDT)
From: Passing thru
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Hypocrisy indeed!
Message:
Dear Jim,
I guess if you're not too concerned about the truth, then second hand rumours are good enough.
I just thought that some readers of this forum might appreciate the facts.
The facts:
At the Long Beach event in December '97 Maharaji made a comment about the next master 'who ever he or she' is.
He said this to an audience of 9,000 people and it has been heard by tens of thousands of people who have seen the video.
And this is how it was reported in the forum:
Sir David posts, ' a VERY IMPORTANT premie at a recent meeting heard Maharaji talk about the next master being a woman'.
Clearly suggesting that only VERY IMPORTANT premies would be hearing this recent developement.
Mike is immediately sucked in and asks ' is it from a reliable source?'.
No, Mike, its from the Ex-premie Forum.
Jean-Michel adds the icing with 'I think so....she's a spanish ex.....premies can't help but talking about things they 'SHOULD NOT''... I wonder how premies will react to this'.
Could these guys be further from the truth, do they even care?
Its not hard to see how the stupid and the gullible end up confused.
And if pointing out the simple truth is hypocrisy, it can only be that your definition of hypocrisy is pointing how inane some posts are.
PT
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Date: Tues, Aug 25, 1998 at 10:30:37 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Passing thru
Subject: Hypocrisy indeed!
Message:
Jean-Michel adds the icing with 'I think so....she's a spanish ex.....premies can't help but talking about things they 'SHOULD NOT''... I wonder how premies will react to this'.

She just repeated what EV representative who had been part of one of m's private meeting reported. These guys spent hours listening to m talking about it, they leave the conference with some understanding of m's intentions, and talk about what they've understood FROM M directly (that's the thing they shouldn't have been doing, as it was confidential matter).
Now I've finaly understood what a lame teacher m really is, that's probably why these organizors definitely don't understand ANYTHING about what m is trying to convey.
He is making plans for his successorship, and they don't understand ANYTHING - usual stuff.
I also wonder why m keeps working with them ...(he has so much love you know).
I find the whole issue very funny, as I'm still wondering WHO in the world is going to buy the next Perfect Master trip! With or without Krishna crown? Maybe some desperate premies. That's not so funny in fact. Some premies are really into trying to make friend with him in order to be able to stay in touch with him 'after'!
He's going to have plenty of gopies running after him, or rather swimming and pursuing his new yacht.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Tues, Aug 25, 1998 at 13:23:19 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Passing thru
Subject: Hypocrisy indeed!
Message:
PT: Sorry, but I would count the reliability of ANY member of this forum to be higher than the reliability of someone that STILL thinks of M as someone 'special.' At least the people, here, have seen him for what he is: CON-MAN.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Tues, Aug 25, 1998 at 15:30:27 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Reliability
Message:
PT: Let me ask a question.

- Who do you consider to be more 'reliable' ?

(1) A recovering alcoholic

(2) A person that IS an alcoholic and swears that he is not

(music playing, wheel-of-forune theme)

If you answered number (1)... ding ding ding ding... what did he win Johnny? Why, he won a free hour of cult deprogramming time at the location of his choice.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Tues, Aug 25, 1998 at 14:37:35 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Passing thru
Subject: You miss my point
Message:
Sorry, PT, I must not have made myself clear. The hypocrisy -- and it's glaring -- lies in the discrepancy between premies' blatant disinterest in any details or specifics about their little, fat Lord/non-Lord/past-Lord/who-the-fuck-cares-Lord and this nitpicking monitoring of the rumour mill. If you don't want the facts, the real, solid facts, about such matters as exactly what happened between Maharaji and his family, exactly what's with all the millions premies have given him over time, exactly how many women has he fucked outside of his supposedly 'holy' marriage, exactly who he once claimed to be and who he thinks he is now -- if you don't care about those facts, and are willing to accpet his complete mind-fuck snow job on anything and everything, it's pretty outrageous to see you chastise anyone actually trying to put a few pieces of the puzzle together.

Maharaji's vagueness, inconsistency and sometimes blathering inscrutability does indeed make things a little tricky. For one thing, he ordered all the old publications destroyed years ago. For another, his puppet organization with its titular head, Linda Gross, is a fucking joke information-wise. She can't or won't tell anyone anything! So where does that leave anyone trying to find out a few simple facts, like, is the Currnet Perfect Master discussing his successorship or not? In what terms? You know.

How dumb, then, for people like you to complain if we don't get all the facts exactly right. It's not our fault, idiot! This is a cult, with raised draw-bridges and only a slot in the door to receive penitants' donations. Even you, devoted numbskull to the living whatever, can't or won't find out what's going on. What re you going to do? Ask him? Like I've said several times here, his own brother, Raja Ji, admitted to me that Maharaji even stonewalls him. So what are YOU going to do to keep the record straight? Just refer to his unintelligible brain spit, fold your hands in your lap and smile like a global village idiot? Go fuck yourself.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Tues, Aug 25, 1998 at 16:48:03 (EDT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: You miss my point
Message:
I'm sure you don't give a toss what anyone else thinks, (that's the way you come over to me) but that post is so full of poetry it's verging on what I take as the real definition of satsang. Company of TRUTH. In fact I seem to be finding more satsang on this site than I ever did all those years. Ironic or what! You seem to be at your best when you are in full-on full of righteous anger mode. So big up to you matey.
And at the risk of watering down the previous paragraph, that's not to deny my other viewpoints elsewhere. Complexity rules.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Tues, Aug 25, 1998 at 21:49:50 (EDT)
From: Paqssing thru
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: You've missed everything
Message:
Dear Jim,
I thought this whole purpose of this site was to establish the truth.
You and others claim you were mislead by Maharaji.
I and others heard exactly the same things and believe Maharaji has given us a great gift.
So what happened?
The 'female master' post makes it clear.
Maharaji makes a comment to 9,000 people and judging by the standing ovation they gave him,the vast majority had no problem with his talk.
But if anyone did think that the possibility of a female master was unaceptable then they can reject Maharaji as their teacher and never listen to him again.
Nothing could be fairer.
On the other hand we have the ex -premie forum version.
An all welcome event for 9,000 ordinary premies 9 month ago becomes 'a very important premie has a recent meeting with Maharaji'.
Maharaji talking about the next master being 'he or she' becomes 'Maharaji about to retire'.
The source which was Maharaji becomes 'an ex- premie in Spain'.
And good old Selena weighs in with her opinion that Maharaji has picked his daughter to succeed him.
How many people reading who read the forum version have repeated it to others.
And how many now believe it.
This is exactly what happened in the early 70's.
People like you and Sir David, Mike, Jean-Michel and Selena spread rumour as fact and opinion as understanding and claimed it all came from Maharaji.
And those unfortunates who didn't have an experience of Knowledge to test it against swallowed the whole lot, hook, line and sinker.
And now 20 years later, they assail this forum with 20 year old misunderstandings and add new ones with every week.
A vicious circle indeed.
PT
Return to Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Tues, Aug 25, 1998 at 22:36:10 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Paqssing thru
Subject: You've missed everything
Message:
Dear Jim,
I thought this whole purpose of this site was to establish the truth.
You and others claim you were mislead by Maharaji.
I and others heard exactly the same things and believe Maharaji has given us a great gift.

Right off the bat you're fudging. Forget about the 'great gift' for a sec. Did Maharaji lead you to believe that he was a) the Lord and b) going to save the world in his lifetime? Yes or no? I mean you might well forgive him for misleading you a bit. After all, he did give you sucha great gift. I understand that. But, first things first -- did he mislead you in any way? Is there ANYTHING Maharaji's ever said that was wrong? If so what? If so, when and how did he apologize?

So what happened?
The 'female master' post makes it clear.
Maharaji makes a comment to 9,000 people and judging by the standing ovation they gave him,the vast majority had no problem with his talk.

'Standing ovation'? Hey, isn't that what the moonies give the good reverend? My, how impressive! And 'no problem with his talk'? What's that supposed to mean? That they're in a cult where they laugh too hard at his water-thin jokes, ponder overmuch his faux-profundities, line-up too long for a good seat near his repulsive (but well-dressed) blobby form, pay too much too often for keepsakes and videos of these vapid exercises? What's your point?

But if anyone did think that the possibility of a female master was unaceptable then they can reject Maharaji as their teacher and never listen to him again.
Nothing could be fairer.

Oh really? That's sure not Maharaji's program. His trip is 'listen, open your heart and your wallets and give me your LLLOOOVVVEEE!' Nothing about consumer rights that I'm aware of.

On the other hand we have the ex -premie forum version.
An all welcome event for 9,000 ordinary premies 9 month ago becomes 'a very important premie has a recent meeting with Maharaji'.

Are you sure you're talking about the same event? I'm not.

Maharaji talking about the next master being 'he or she' becomes 'Maharaji about to retire'.

Look, dummy, we're not there at the stupid programs. We dO get the info second hand. Maharaji WON'T share any information with the outside world. His lapdog org people won't help out either. You don't have the slightest justification in complaining about a little inaccuracy here or there. Not until EV or Maharaji or SOMEONE on his behalf -- his official behalf -- makes an effort to 'set the record straight'. God you're stupid!

The source which was Maharaji becomes 'an ex- premie in Spain'.
And good old Selena weighs in with her opinion that Maharaji has picked his daughter to succeed him.

Hey, has he?

How many people reading who read the forum version have repeated it to others.
And how many now believe it.
This is exactly what happened in the early 70's.

Oh you complete jerk, I wish I was better at searing because you deserve the full brunt of whatever it is I'm feeling now. What happened in the early 70s is that Maharaji said he was God in Human Form, manifest to save the world in short order. He said it, fuckface, no one else did. We've already gone over his wquotes and you've proven for all posterity that you have one good reason to never post your real name. You've made a complete fool of yourself. By the way, DO you have any kids?

People like you and Sir David, Mike, Jean-Michel and Selena spread rumour as fact and opinion as understanding and claimed it all came from Maharaji.

No we didn't, no we didn't. Na na na na na! PT's a goof. Na na na na na!

And those unfortunates who didn't have an experience of Knowledge to test it against swallowed the whole lot, hook, line and sinker.
And now 20 years later, they assail this forum with 20 year old misunderstandings and add new ones with every week.
A vicious circle indeed.

If I could send you anywhere it would be to life in an endless three stooges movie where you'd be slapped, kicked, have your nose pulled and basically ... well, DO you have any kids? Would you PLEASE let me talk with them?

Shameless goof. Thanks for the workout!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Wed, Aug 26, 1998 at 11:11:46 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Paqssing thru
Subject: You've missed everything
Message:
PT: First, you have NO IDEA what I did or did not experience with K. Get that thru your skull! You have NO IDEA what I experienced with my 'direct contact' time with your 'master.' You have NO IDEA about anything that concerns me! How can I say this? Because you've never met me, other that on this forum.

- As to the 'confusion' spread as gossip thing: Well, PT, M NEVER, I repeat, NEVER made any attempt to dispel anything that 'may' have been a rumor (and presented to us as truth by mahatmas, initiators, etc).... NEVER! You obviously never heard those 'M is the LOTU' satsang given by charnanand, right? Well, HE DID and he is still M's right-hand-mahatma. M never corrected charnanand, he never publicly apologized for 'C's' behavior or misinformation. He never did anything to dispel ideas about himself that were inconsistent with what he wanted taught. So what does that tell you, PT? So, now who's fault is that? (hint: it isn't mine, Jim's, Sir David's, etc).
Return to Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Thurs, Aug 27, 1998 at 22:58:26 (EDT)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Paqssing thru
Subject: Lets call it paqs...
Message:
Hi Paqs,

It seems to me that nothing you post on this forum makes the slightest sense beyond the context of the 'great gift' you keep going on about. You are obviously not going to answer any of Jim's questions (and observers will draw their own conclusions) but I'd like to add a couple of questions of my own. Feel free to ignore these, as you wish, and surely will...

The great gift:

Any sincerely seeking westerner could have received this - the very same - gift (knowledge) from Yogananda about fifty years back. You still can, in fact, from his successors. People call it kriya yoga when they're not calling it bullshit. You can also find many references to the great gift in library books or else scattered about various sites on the Internet.

So, PT:

(1) Do you believe that the lucky recipients of these alternative variants upon the great gift have the same inner experience as you?

If the answer is 'No', then...

(2) Why not?
(3) So Maharaj Ji is important then?
(4) You mean a bit like a Living Lord?
(5) No kidding?
(6) What evidence?
(7) Is that all you've got to go on..?

If the answer to (1) is 'Yes' then

(2) So why Maharaj Ji?
(3) And why did 9000 people give him a standing ovation at Long Beach when they could have stayed at home with a book?
(4) Was it something he said?
(5) What, exactly?
(6) If 9000 students clap long enough will Maharaj Ji take his Krishna top off and wobble about the stage a bit? I remember that's what many of my friends (and Rich Neale) liked best.

I bet you don't/won't/can't give a straight answer to any of these questions, Passing Out. You never seem to do anything much around here except complain about lies and rumours as if you knew they were false (which you don't, otherwise you would have said so).

I suggest you put up or shut up.

BTW: And now 20 years later, they assail this forum with 20 year old misunderstandings and add new ones with every week

Selena, whom you mentioned, certainly doesn't have 20 year-old misunderstandings. She jumped ship just after Long Beach, so maybe there were only 8,999 giving the standing ovation. I jumped ship ten years ago, but the lies don't change very much even if the Krishna pants are in mothballs.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Mon, Aug 24, 1998 at 16:58:20 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Ban Mike!
Message:
Mike should be banned from posting on this board. The following is an example of his transgressions:

Bobby: Yeah, I thought you would understand my 'original' post to to be VERY facitious. Sorry, you took it seriously (that's why I put the brakes on...). It wasn't the intent. My sense of humor escapes people sometimes. It's a little dry. Anyway, I agree that sometimes the people we have to choose between aren't always the best (from our own points of view, anyway). I think that, at that point, we have to decide which 'battles' we are going to fight (e.g. what is the single most important issue I want this guy/gal to fix). If that individual is inclined to vote your way, then that's the one you want in office. Like I said, I don't think it's possible to fix everything, all at once (there are just too many persoanlities involved). But if we chip away at the problems one by one, politician after politician, then we will get it right at some point. It's definitely a long road and may appear that you are not moving, but eventually....problem solved. I think alot of people have a problem with the 'system' because it rarely gives INSTANT gratification (something we have come to expect). Our parents, and their parents before them, had more patience in the long run. I mean, look at the great depression. My parents and grandparents spent an enormous amount of their lives living in relative poverty, by today's standards, due to the depression. But, they did one thing that we don't seem to do very well: they set their own personal interests aside and selflessly tried to make it better for their children, even if it meant that they would never have the life that they, themselves, wanted. By the standard that they set during that time, we are the most SELF-ABSORBED people that have ever inhabited this landscape. All we are concerned with is our own PERSONAL gratification. 'I WANT WHAT I WANT AND I WANT IT, RIGHT NOW!' This applies to just about everything, including our asperations to get things fixed. We may THINK that we are doing it for others, but I tell you that if the words, 'RIGHT NOW,' are in the mind or spoken, then it's personal gratification that WE are 'really' looking for (e.g. 'look at me...'I' was able to get this done soooo quickly' or 'I made it happen,' etc,etc). Truely selfless effort on behalf of someone else is always VERY determined and, above all, patient. Just my opinion, of course.

Now how in the world does he expect anyone to read this without paragraphs? Brian?? Is there anything you can do? Do you still have that committee kicking around?
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Date: Mon, Aug 24, 1998 at 18:39:32 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Ban Mike!
Message:
...sniff...sniff...I'm sorry...
Return to Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Mon, Aug 24, 1998 at 19:03:32 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: That's not enough!!
Message:
...sniff...sniff...I'm sorry...

Well.... maybe. But, you know Mike, Keith was banned on this forum for five years once just because he put an extra space before the end of his sentences. (Typos, by the way, are allwoed.)
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Date: Mon, Aug 24, 1998 at 19:09:43 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Is this?
Message:
...On my honor...I will ensure that I use paragraphs in my long-winded and thoroughly boring tirades so that all who read them will be able to glean every last detail and trueism therefrom.

- IS
- That
- Better
- ?
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Date: Mon, Aug 24, 1998 at 19:55:30 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Yes...
Message:
but wipe that smile off your face, soldier. This is no laguhing matter!
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Date: Mon, Aug 24, 1998 at 08:50:40 (EDT)
From: Becky
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Jim, you're blind
Message:
Jim, Here's some info for you. 44 out of 45 Islamic states voted that the Ayatollah's 'fatwa' against Rushdie was un-Islamic. Likewise, the Taleban are a group of uneducated fanatics and they are a minority in the Muslim world. You might as well judge Catholicism by the IRA, or Democracy by America's wonderful international behaviour. The so-called fatwa that the Taleban have made has actually got nothing to do with islam. The Taleban were originally funded by the US in return for oil. Jim, this is more than just about islam: it's about poverty, dirty politics and manipulation by Northern Territories. You have absolutely no idea of what Islam is really about. Nor have you taken the trouble to look into it. You're just going back to your ignorant, uninformed liberal fundamentalist viewpoint. Jim, don't you think that human beings have minds of their own? Do you think that if we wiped every religion off the face of the earth we'd all suddenly love each other and make peace? BULL SHIT!!! And if you were to wipe religions off the face of the earth how would you ensure that people didn't express their religious tendencies ever again? Brain-washing them with your theories about modern civilisation? Policing them? Crushing and stamping out all religious expression? You'd be the world's greatest dictator. What you can't see Jim, is that you are judging the values of something i) with a minimum of information ii)without realising that your views are not as universal or fair as you'd like to think. You say Islam is as Islam does. Why don't you check out the good works that Muslims do, the things that Islam and Muslims have contributed to the world, rather than just looking at the negative shit. China is a supposedly non-religious country - so was Russia - how fantastically did those countries develop? How free are the citizens in those countries? How well do they live? And to assume that man is now less violent and savage than he was in the past is a romanticising of the Present. Man has and always will be pretty much the same. Just ask Amnesty International about how humane people are these days.
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Date: Mon, Aug 24, 1998 at 16:11:41 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Jim, you're blind
Message:
Becky,

None of your criticism surprises me. First, to cut to the quick, yes, indeed, the world would be better off -- make that WILL be better off -- when religion finally dries up. And 'dry up' it will. When? Who knows? Maybe it'll be another 2,000 years. Maybe 200. Maybe 20! But it's bound to happen. Thank God.

Will we all suddenly love each other? Of course not. We never have, so why start now? But will there be morality without religion? Of course, it's inbred and developing. Is it developing in the way you or I would prefer? I don't know but hopefully. Who can say? Anyway, with any luck, the morality that does develop thousands of years form now will fit the people of the time. You get the drift.

I never said atheism was a panacea. Your examples of ugly authoritarian regimes, for me, fall into the category of OTHER repressive ideologies. So what's new?

Do I really have no idea what Islam is about? Give me a fucking break! I know more than enough, more than I ever needed to know, more than I want. Do you know all the details of Scientology? Of course not. Why would you? Isn't it enough to know it's just a tricky mental virus started by a bad science fiction writer pretending to be a timeless being, custodian of some ridiculous 'timeless truths'? It is for me. The details of Islam are, as you can imagine, sublimely ridiculous to me. Sure, I'd be happy to read the Koran with a few friends for entertainment, you know. But, really, to ask me to seriously STUDY this ancient, quaint bundle of superstition is a non-starter. Let me ask you, though, is there a particular section you think warrants fuller attention than the rest? What's your favorite part? I'd be happy to oblige. Maybe you can even post a few stanzas here for everyone to see.

You claim that 44 out of 45 Islamic countries voted against the Rushdie (ironic name, wouldn't you say?) fatwa. Funny, how faintly we all heard that cry in his defense. Forgive me for my ignorance, but I get a distinct impression that the entire mulsim world is held 'hostage', if you will, to the extremists in that only a tiny minority have the guts to actually go toe-to-toe with the fundamentalists. Come on, Becky, you know it. You can find me maybe one or two 'moderate' muslims who are willing to speak out against the wildest, ugliest fundamentalist prattle. Where are the rest?

Yes, people have minds of their own. That's why it's particularly disturbing to see mental viruses infect them. I would say that anyone who's religion is called 'submission' is on a stragne path of forfeiting all theat autonomy of thought. Too bad. But then that's the nature of infection, isn't it? Perfectly healthy organisms overtaken by foregin bodies. In this case, religion.

As for the good works Islam does, think carefully. Now that we can see through the illusion of design, now that we nowe the whole God-the-creator story is unsupportable, isn't it time to thank the religions for all the wonderful things they've done for humanity and retire them. I'm not saying we can't respect the wonderful people that have truly done so much for others in the name of religion over time. Thank them profusely. Set up a musuem of quaint ideologies of the past and give them all full credit for whatever good they ever did. But retire them! There's no way you can possibly be saying that the CURRENT benefit Islam offers the world even begins to balance out its ugly, murderous stranglehold on millions of people.

Wake up, Becky!
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Date: Tues, Aug 25, 1998 at 09:25:56 (EDT)
From: Becky
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: There's no easy answer for you
Message:
Jim, for you its a foregone conclusion that there is no God, that the human spirit is actually just a biological part of the brain. But for many it is not a foregone conclusion. I don't think religion ever will die out. I read in the Washington Post today about a revival in China of the religion of the Nyiang Nyiang goddess. Look at what happened in Russia. As soon as the 'liberating idealogy' of that totalitarian government was removed people rushed to the churches. I think if you were to get rid of religion completely you would have to find something else in which human beings can express what it is to be human, and can satisfy the human spirit. Even if you explain how the universe was made in scientific terms, it still does not explain the cause of causes, it still does not explain what that spontaneous moment actually is.
Islam is different from scientology, although it does talk about a disease of the mind: that is someone immersed in hatred or so far away from their highest, purest nature. However, since you refuse to read anything about it, and you insist on believing everything you hear in the press, then what can I do? I cannot discuss anything about Islam with you. It's like me trying to explain to you what's inside an egg when you pointblank refuse to look inside the egg and you say 'No, that egg is full of worms'. Your argument is as logical as that.

'You claim that 44 out of 45 Islamic countries voted against the Rushdie (ironic name, wouldn't you say?) fatwa. Funny, how faintly we all heard that cry in his defense.'

By the way, we Brits call Rushdie 'Rushdee', so your clever little comment is applicable only to those in the world who speak American or Canadian.

You want to know why we heard so little of it about the vote against the fatwa? Because the Western press lurves to demonise Islam and so didn't report it. The Western press was more interested in saying the the minority Shi'a sect in Iran and Khomeini represented the whole of the Islamic world, and that every Muslim wanted Rushdee's blood. Western demonising of Islam goes back a long way. It is rooted in Christianity,and the West's ignorance of our Middle Eastern and Semitic cousins. Just look at the Merchant of Venice, or Othello for a clue to what Europeans thought.

If you want to get rid of religion, you must come up with something that satisfies the 'spirit' or the biological part of the brain that desires to express gratitude, to pray, to be pure etc. etc. Perhaps your answer would be to lobotomise everyone. You must also explain what is the substance of your feelings, what it is that makes you alive (OK blood - but what makes blood alive? Oxygen? Haeomoglobin? How did they come into existence? What was that spontaneous moment when they came into existence? What caused that spontaneous moment?)These are just a few questions that you must answer. No doubt you will be blustering with confidence that science will have the answer, and then we must believe the dogma of scientists, our new priests.
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Date: Tues, Aug 25, 1998 at 10:15:00 (EDT)
From: Sir David
Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com
To: Becky
Subject: There's no easy answer for you
Message:
Becky; the man who has done the best in explaining how the universe was made is Stephen Hawking. And he's definitely not an atheist.
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Date: Tues, Aug 25, 1998 at 11:58:29 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Sir David
Subject: There's no easy answer for you
Message:
Hawking is certainly NOT the man who best describes how life began, what it is, etc. But then what do you care what he says, David? I thought you just feel your way through all these issues? I mean, you didn't think it was worthwhile to read Dawkins and actually learn something, did you? So what is this? Selective know-it-all-ness?
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Date: Tues, Aug 25, 1998 at 12:04:37 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Becky
Subject: Bullshit, Becky!
Message:
You want to know why we heard so little of it about the vote against the fatwa? Because the Western press lurves to demonise Islam and so didn't report it. The Western press was more interested in saying the the minority Shi'a sect in Iran and Khomeini represented the whole of the Islamic world, and that every Muslim wanted Rushdee's blood. Western demonising of Islam goes back a long way. It is rooted in Christianity,and the West's ignorance of our Middle Eastern and Semitic cousins. Just look at the Merchant of Venice, or Othello for a clue to what Europeans thought.

This is probably the most ridiculous thing you've said yet. Are you denying that any muslim who speaks out against fatwa-this and fatwa-that isn't at risk of some pretty heavy threats or worse? Give me a fucking break!

As for your last set of questions, why don't you read a bit, Becky? Try reading some brain science stuff, something of the last year or so? Really, your argument from ignorance is pretty weak. See, I'm ignorant of the details of Islam because I reject the philosophical underpinnings that supposedly justify it. You can't prove them -- that Mohammed was divinely inspired -- so that's the end of it. It's that simple.

Do you do the same with science? That would be pretty pathetic. That would mean you'd be rejecting the scientific process and where would that leave you? With your head so far down the ostrich hole I couldn't even imagine it.
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Date: Tues, Aug 25, 1998 at 21:06:48 (EDT)
From: Cosmon
Email: None
To: all
Subject: Islam
Message:
Why all this confusion ? The discussions that occur on this forum represent a microcosmic sample of views and yet as in the world at large no-one can conclusively claim the final word of
truth. Islam as with all major world religions also contains a myriad of factions and alternate viewpoints . Sure enough the one common belief is in God or in a Divinity . But even here there are many interpretations as to the nature of this Godhead or Divinity . Unfortunately individual voices tend to get lost in
the political scramble for power and consequently the many divergent voices rarely get heard especially in the mainstream media.
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Date: Wed, Aug 26, 1998 at 08:37:54 (EDT)
From: Becky
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Bullshit, Jim
Message:
What do you mean 'any Muslim who speaks out against fatwa-this and fatwa-that'? Now who's being vague? Millions of Muslims have spoken out against the Rushdie fatwa. Muslims are speaking out against the so-called fatwa issued by the Taleban. If you decided to speak out in public against IRA threats, or the Mafia, you too might find your life in danger. As I keep saying to you over and over and over again Jim, the above-mentioned fatwas and the dictatorships of Iran and Afghanistan have got nothing to do with Islam. Things are far more complex than that, but like a child with a colouring book you fill in green for 1 and red for 2. You are seeking simple, easy solutions - probably what you were looking for in Maharaji. There is no simple, easy solution. It is our responsibility as adults to deal with the complexity of issues and to give fair hearing and fair judgement.

Re: Prophet Muhammad. A few notes for your information:
Isiah 29:12
A book is delivered to him that is not learned saying 'Read, I pray thee, in the name of your Lord', and he says 'I am not learned'.

The first thing that happened to Muhammad as he meditated in his cave was that a being came and said to him: 'Iqra bismi rabbikal ladhi khalaq'(Al-alaq 96.1-5) - 'Read (recite) in the name of your Lord who creates'. And Muhammad said fearfully 'I am not learned'.

Furthermore, the being said 'Khalaq al-insana min alaq' - who created man from an embryo.

In the Qur'an is described the process of human reproduction. Would a 6th century man know this?
'Man We created from a quintessence. Then We placed him as a drop of sperm in a place of rest, firmly fixed. Then we made the sperm into a clot. Then of that clot we made an embryo; then out of that embryo We made bones clothed the bones with flesh. Then We developed out of it a new, individual creature' al-Mu'minun 23.12-4

Jim, I'd be interested if you could enlighten me on the techniques of surgery in 6th century Arabia.

Prophet Muhammad's Prophesies:
Muhammad said:
This affair began with Prophethood and as a mercy; then it will be mercy and Caliphate; afterwards it will change into a cruel monarchy, and finally into iniquity and tyranny. Surely the Caliphate after me will last thirty years;afterwards it will be a cruel monarchy.

Muhammad also said that Islam will rise in the West. At present, in Britain alone 50,000 people are converting to Islam every year. does this look like religion is dying out?

With regard to Caliph Uthman, the Prophet said:
Uthman will be killed while reading the Qur'an.

Uthman was assassinated years after the Prophet had died.

This is just a fraction of what I could tell you Jim. Since you are a materialist, however, who desires physical proof of everything,prove to me that you feel love or hate. Prove my personality to me. Prove what it is that makes blood give us life. Prove to me what it is that makes a flower respond to the sun. Prove to me what it is that makes you alive and conscious.

By the way, I'm leaving my job on Friday so will have difficulty getting access here in the near future. it's been fun chatting with you.
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Date: Wed, Aug 26, 1998 at 11:18:57 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Becky
Subject: Hey, best of luck
Message:
This is just a fraction of what I could tell you Jim. Since you are a materialist, however, who desires physical proof of everything,prove to me that you feel love or hate. Prove my personality to me. Prove what it is that makes blood give us life. Prove to me what it is that makes a flower respond to the sun. Prove to me what it is that makes you alive and conscious.

Becky,

Why don't you frame your questions in an intelligible fashion? What do you mean 'prove' this and 'prove' that? Why don't you ask the straightforward questions of 'how?' or 'why?'? HOW do you feel love or hate? WHY do you have a personality? HOW do you hve a personality? WHAT's the role of vlood in the body? How are we alive? WHY does a flower respond to the sun? WHAT makes you alive and conscious?

You should read some science, I guess, because that's the only place you'll find any real answers to any of these questions. And yes, there ARE answers, rich, compelling answers. My impression is that science can answer some of these questions more conclusively than some of the others but there are, at minimum, some very strong theories explaining all that you wonder about. If you're not looking at science you can hardly criticise it, though, for not coming through. You definitely won't find any answers to any of these questions in some antique religion. Just a lot of quaint poetry and mystery. So what do you want? Mystery or knowledge?

By the way, I'm leaving my job on Friday so will have difficulty getting access here in the near future. it's been fun chatting with you.
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Date: Thurs, Aug 27, 1998 at 08:37:53 (EDT)
From: Becky
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Antiques and poetry
Message:
Jim, there may be poetry in religion, but there is also an incredible amount of wisdom. Of course its great that we have science to answer a lot of our questions, and to give us medicine to heal us, but the questions that you said I should ask above are nothing to do with the point I was trying to make.

You could say you feel love because certain external factors interact with certain hormones and neurons producing serotonin and endorphines bla bla bla, and it is fascinating to know what is going on in the physical sense, but what I am asking is WHAT IS IT that instructs those hormones to produce a feeling of love in the first place? You can say DNA, evolutionary developments; but my question is WHAT IS THAT that makes DNA produce those instructions to those hormones. WHAT IS THE CAUSE OF ALL CAUSES? What is the living force, the force at the origin of origins?

A few words of wisdom from the Prophet and his companions:
'the ink of the scholar is more holy than the blood of the martyr'
'one learned man is harder on the devil than a thousand ignorant worshippers'
'no man is a true believer unless he desires for his brother that which he desires for himself'
'When a bier of anyone passes you by, whether Jew, Christian or Muslim, rise to your feet'
'The proof of a Muslim's sincerity is that he pays no attention to what is not his business'
'Assist any person who is oppressed, whether Muslim or non-Muslim'

I'm going back to college to do a Masters in Comparative African/Asian literature, and will be working part-time for a Professor of Philosophy, so maybe I'll become more closely acquainted with scientific theories through him.

Soon as I've got access to the net again I'LL BE BACK for more fun! Tomorrow's my last day on here for a while. Sniff, sniff.
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Date: Thurs, Aug 27, 1998 at 13:40:37 (EDT)
From: Becky
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Jim - didn't answer my Q
Message:
Jim, with your scientific knowledge, could you explain to me whether it would be possible for Muhammad as a 6th century Arab to know about the human reproduction process i.e. from sperm to embryo to individual?
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Date: Thurs, Aug 27, 1998 at 16:54:25 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Becky
Subject: Who's kidding whom?
Message:
Becky,

Sorry I didn't get back to you on this. I should have, particularly because, as you can imagine, I was rather surprised that Mohammed would have had such a modern, albeit decidedly vague, notion of the human birth process. Lucky guess or what? Here's what you'd offered as the scriptural proof that Mohammed was divinely inspired:

'Man We created from a quintessence. Then We placed him as a drop of sperm in a place of rest, firmly fixed. Then we made the sperm into a clot. Then of that clot we made an embryo; then out of that embryo We made bones clothed the bones with flesh. Then We developed out of it a new, individual creature' al-Mu'minun 23.12-4

But Becky, when I did my own searching of the Koran, at http://www.hti.umich.edu/relig/koran/index.html, I found the following translation:

23.12] And certainly We created man of an extract of clay,
[23.13] Then We made him a small seed in a firm resting-place,
[23.14] Then We made the seed a clot, then We made the clot a lump of flesh, then We made (in) the lump of flesh bones, then We clothed the bones with flesh, then We caused it to grow into another creation, so blessed be Allah, the best of the creators.

No 'sperm', no 'embryos', just a seed in a 'firm-resting spot' turning into a 'clot' and then a 'lump of flesh bones'. So I ask myself, what's this all about? Care to explain?

Here, by the way, is the disclaimer found on that page:

'This is an electronic version of The Holy Qur'an, translated by M.H. Shakir and published by Tahrike Tarsile Qur'an, Inc., in 1983. The text was provided by the Online Book Initiative and subsequently marked up at the HTI in SGML. Like all the versions of this text derived from the Online Book Initiative, it is not free from errors. We will strive to correct any errors pointed out to us.'

Maybe you should contact Mr. Shakir and explain to him the current translation. Don't forget, 'clot' these days really means 'zygote'.

Yeah, this is REALLY impressive, alright. I'm absolutely AMAZED that Mohammed could have known, even back then, the incredible intricacies of the human reproductive process. Why, what else could explain this but divine intervention? Hey, where do I join?

As for your other post, regarding science's limited ability to probe the great secret of life, first, when you say:

You could say you feel love because certain external factors interact with certain hormones and neurons producing serotonin and endorphines bla bla bla, and it is fascinating to know what is going on in the physical sense, but what I am asking is WHAT IS IT that instructs those hormones to produce a feeling of love in the first place? You can say DNA, evolutionary developments; but my question is WHAT IS THAT that makes DNA produce those instructions to those hormones. WHAT IS THE CAUSE OF ALL CAUSES? What is the living force, the force at the origin of origins?

don't you realize what you're doing? Take out the childish 'blah blah blah' and you're really describing a whole lot of stuff that was a complete mystery, explained by all sorts of nonsense in various religions, and only now properly understood thanks to science. Give credit where it's due. Science discovered all those details you apparently find oh so boring. Well excuse me! I'm sorry if reality doesn't satisfy your romantic aspirations, but there it is. Don't be an ingrate.

Now as for the 'cause of all causes'? Who said there was one? Hey, maybe there is, maybe there isn't. Maybe your question is just plain useless, your native intelligence notwithstanding. Or maybe science hasn't finished its work yet. Did that ever occur to you? I mean science is to thank for knowing what we know so far. Even your earnest effort to slap some miraculous scientific knowledge on Mohammed shows how much its science, and not religion, that's been able to answer any of life's mysteries to the extent that they are answered to date. So why curtail the process? It isn't over yet.

Meanwhile, religion never answered any of this shit. It's just enshrined the mystery as if the state of ignorance was, in itself, somehow holy. No, that just doesn't cut it.

Anyway, I'm particularly interested in where you come off telling us that Mohammed used the words 'sperm' or 'embryo'. This should be interesting.
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Date: Thurs, Aug 27, 1998 at 16:01:02 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Becky
Subject: Bullshit, Jim
Message:
Millions of Muslims have spoken out against the Rushdie fatwa. Muslims are speaking out against the so-called fatwa issued by the Taleban.

As I stated down below to Jim, this is absolutely correct.

Iran and Afghanistan have got nothing to do with Islam. Things are far more complex than that, but like a child with a colouring book you fill in green for 1 and red for 2. You are seeking simple, easy solutions -

I agree with this, too. I really think it is JIM who has got a fatwa going. His desire to demonize all muslims as violent terrorists is taking on more religious furvor all the time.
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Date: Sun, Aug 23, 1998 at 19:11:52 (EDT)
From: hamzen
Email: mc@hamzen.demon.co.uk
To: Everyone
Subject: gm/days working
Message:
I1ve got an ongoing critical debate with a premie. Her latest defence is that if he is a fraud why does he spend quite so much time doing his number around the world? The figure she1s quoting is 320 days a year. Is this figure accurate?

The only answers I can think of are that he is addicted to flying and/or is just as dependent on the energy exchange/focus with premies as they are with him, or that he is so short of dosh that he has to. None of these arguments completely convince me, I mean would another 40 days off make that much difference? Has anybody got any ideas?
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Date: Sun, Aug 23, 1998 at 19:32:00 (EDT)
From: jethro
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: gm/days working
Message:
Hmazen,
He works so hard so that he doesn't have to meditate. He tells himself he doing service to his guru and doesn't need to mediatate.
He is also trying to escape the fact that he has a personal life to contend with.
He is clearly trying to model himself on his image of what his father did.

In the times i did service at his residence in Reigate, I was told many a time not to meditate as i was doing direct service.

jethro
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Date: Sun, Aug 23, 1998 at 19:52:52 (EDT)
From: VP
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: hazem, it's his job
Message:
Flying around doing programs is his job. It's what he does. He is in the 'guru buisness'.

I don't think how many days he works proves anything about his sincerity. I know some real bastard workaholics who work 365 days a year. This does not make them the LOTU.
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Date: Mon, Aug 24, 1998 at 10:56:33 (EDT)
From: John
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: gm/days working
Message:
He is doing the only thing he knows how to do (remember, he's only got an 8th grade education), the only thing he has ever done (since he was 14 or so), and the only thing he thinks he should be doing (his Dad's direct command, right? Take this Knowledge to this world.)

Plus, it's probably a helluva rush to sit in front of worshipping devotees who think that you are the closest thing to God since Jesus.

Seriously, though, what else CAN he do? Start a business? He's already got a business, with little overhead, with people who will work for nothing. How could he improve on it?

I don't understand the logic that he must be the real thing because he works so hard. It does not make him more 'sincere' or a 'better' guru just because he flies all over the world non stop. What, are good deeds measured in miles flown? You mean if he suddenly decided not to tour the world then he would no longer be The Perfect Master? One has absolutely nothing to do with the other.

Anyway, I don't believe in Perfect Masters, present or past. IMHO, it's a fantasy designed to comfort frightened human beings who are trying to cope with being alive. Granted, it's a very nice notion, that God comes down in human form to assist humans. But, it just doesn't float my boat anymore.

btw, are you a ham that's into zen?
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Date: Mon, Aug 24, 1998 at 17:52:31 (EDT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Jethro/VP/John
Subject: gm/days working
Message:
Thanks for the responses. I think her argument was that 320 days is a lot more than he needs to do and exhausts him, so why would he do it if he didn1t believe in what he is doing!
A mate has just given me another possible. He was in England last weekend, is around a week, does one knowledge session, one satsang, the rest of the time chooses what he wants to do while living in comfort at Reigate being served hand & foot.
Escaping his personal life is interesting, since he1s obviously 24/7 linked into dependency mode with everyone around him. What kind of personal life can that lead to, zilch. What a fucked up existence.
He1s obviously completely locked into old bad habits or else he wouldn1t have blown what was a great opportunity, see Sir David1s post ‘isn1t it a pity1. For myself although I never felt any connection to him, he was pretty much an irrelevance for me that I wasn1t comfortable with, until I met the people he chose to hang around with him as his representatives, not a pretty bunch. That and the fact it became obvious he didn1t really want knowledge to be received by many people or he wouldn1t have done it the way he did and had such piss poor organizational structures around him, for so long. At 15 some excuses could be made, not when he was 25 and the master of perfection, he obviously wasn1t getting much good feedback from god/himself.
btw John, the zen I1m into is the sort not practiced by any organized sect. I always loved the zen masters living on the road who told people to fuck off when they were asked serious questions, hamzen was a misreading of my dj name 4AMZEN by a mate when I gave her one of my tapes, I liked her response so much etc etc
ps.. aren1t we all hams even 95% raw food vegans like me and before anyone posts I1m not religious about veganism either although.....
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Date: Tues, Aug 25, 1998 at 08:49:53 (EDT)
From: John
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: gm/days working
Message:
'I always loved the zen masters living on the road who told people to fuck off when they were asked serious questions'

Yes! I agree completely. That's the only attitude about spirituality that makes sense to me (right now anyway).
One reason I am disappointed that i fell for GMJ is that he is so pompous (that ridiculous krishna outfit!) and takes himself sooooo seriously. WHAT was I thinking of? I know, I know, I wasn't thinking. That was the whole point.

Sorry to hear about your veganism. My deepest sympathies. :)
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Date: Tues, Aug 25, 1998 at 19:26:20 (EDT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: John
Subject: gm/days working
Message:
John, isnšt that one of the ways hešs so dangerous, he hijacked a natural desire for being in the moment, total subversion....
As for my veganism, in your next life.........
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Date: Mon, Aug 24, 1998 at 20:15:44 (EDT)
From: Laura
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: gm/days working
Message:
The number of days he says he 'works' is not correct.

Even when I wanted to see him his programs were few and far between.

How many programs does he give a year, not many.

I lived in Arizona for 12 years and he visited once. Now I live in Sacramento, the capitol of the state of his primary residence, and as far as I know he has never given a program here. Can he even have a 'primary' residence if he is on the road so much?

And all this is besides the point. The only reason gmj is on the road or 'working' is because he gets something out of it, not because anybody else does. He is not doing anything for anyone but himself. And what he is doing for himself is self-destructive.
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Date: Tues, Aug 25, 1998 at 16:43:51 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: gm/days working
Message:
ham: GM? WORK? In the same sentence? That should be enough of an answer. But, if it's not, try a different tack, as they say.

- He says that K is a gift, right? He accepts 'gratitude' (read that: money) for having given that gift, right? Now let's think about this for a moment. You have certainly given gifts to the people you love, all of us have. BUT...have you ever accepted 'gratitude,' in the form of money, from ANYONE that you have given a gift to? WE wouldn't even consider it! If someone said to us, 'Hey, that gift you gave me was way too expensive. Here... please accept this money in gratitude for such a wonderful gift,' we would be insulted (well ok you would forgive them with a smile), but you would NEVER take the money. You would physically push it away. Why? Because it was a gift you gave; no repayment necessary or desired, EVER! You see this all of the time between 'normal' people.

- A gift is a gift. That kind of 'gratitude' is never expected or accepted by anyone truely giving a gift.

Maybe that will give you something to work with. Maybe it will give your friend something to think about. I hope it does.
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Date: Tues, Aug 25, 1998 at 19:33:34 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: gm/days working
Message:
I think he really LIKES being worshipped, as many people would. And I think he loves to travel in the most luxurious modes possible, and I think he LOVES to fly planes worth $20 Million dollars. He doesn't have to put up with airports, airport food, or other people. He travels with private servants and doesn't even have to carry his own bags. If he feels like it, he cancels a program and no one fires him. No stress, very relaxing and a great gig if you can get it. I think he has also found that the more programs he gives, the more money he makes, and the more videos he has to sell, and the more money he makes.

He likes to have premies fawn all over him, wait on him hand and foot, and stay in the most luxurious accommodations possible. Work? What? He 'speaks' repetitive nonsense for an hour or so, and no matter how incoherent it is, people act like he speaks glorious pearls of wisdom. I think it sounds like a glorious vacation, not work in any sense. I'm sure he gets bored with it, but then he has to do it to keep the money coming in to pay for the huge amounts he spends.
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